Brew Day Water pH

[Blind Dog]

Wobbly

Just put your numbers from post #14 through EZ water and end up with a mash pH at room temp of 5.4 without any acid addition (but after the 100g of acidulated malt and after the salt additions you mention), and all minerals except magnesium (which you don't mention) in the desired ranges. Personally, I'd be happy with that and wouldn't be looking to add acid.

I now brew with filtered Melbourne water and treat it as a blank canvas as even before filtering it has little in the way of minerals or hardness. I rarely need to add more than a small percentage of acidulated malt, even for light beer, to get the pH of the mash to 5.4 or thereabouts. My measurements are with low range pH strips, so maybe not that reliable, but as they've always matched the EZ water calc, I've never been that concerned. In terms of salt additions, I tend to add only calcium chloride and epsom salts and balance on the malty side; gypsum makes only an occasional appearance. The results have been good and I now rarely bother to measure mash pH

 

[wobbly]

Hi Blind Dog

I get the same predicted results and the mean Mg of my tap water is 5.5ppm
It's just only recently that I have considered the brewing water chemistry in any detail in an endeavour to remove an astringency I taste in my beers (others don't or are just being polite!!)
I have been reading a couple of Gordon Strong and Ray Daniel's books on brewing and beer design and rightly or wrongly have decided to target a mash pH of 5.3 for my for my pale ales and build a water profile to achieve that using Bru'n Water.
As indicated in post #18 I think my issue is that I was adding the acid with the salts to the total brewing water (38lt) and then checking the pH prior to adding the grain and expecting it to be within range give or take a bit which it wasn't and I didn't/don't understand why.
So I was ditching the water and starting again without the acid addition and checking the mash pH after dough in and adding small amounts of acid every 15 mins to target my mash pH but found that I was only getting to around pH of 5.4 after about half the amount/number of additions and 45 mins into the mash phase
From my other reading/research it appears that the grain will add to the buffering effect of the water and the pH should be within predicted range during the mash phase and that may well be the case.
I have difficulty in just doing something without understanding what the outcome will be I need to understand what's going on and what causes change
So as indicated in my previous post I will adopt a different approach to how and when I add the acid (based on what Gordon Strong does targeting a pre mash pH of 5.5) in my next brew to see if that gives me the answer I am looking for.
Once I understand the "Why" of whats happening I will be more relaxed about the acid additions and how they will impact on my mash.

Thanks for you input

Wobbly

 

[Black n Tan]

Hi Blind Dog

As indicated in post #18 I think my issue is that I was adding the acid with the salts to the total brewing water (38lt) and then checking the pH prior to adding the grain and expecting it to be within range give or take a bit which it wasn't and I didn't/don't understand why.​ You are trying to target a mash pH of 5.3 not the brewing water. The mash pH is dictated by the acidity added by the grains (lower pH) against the buffering capacity of the water (termed residual alkalinity, RA, which will drive pH up). Carbonate and bicarbonate ions increase the RA (i.e.. drive mash Ph higher, they bind and neutralise acid), whilst Ca and Mg reduce the RA (ie. drive mash pH lower, they release acid by reacting with phosphates in the mash). Acid can also be used to lower the ph of the mash into the desired range. The pH of the water is largely irrelevant: it is the residual alkalinity that is important and it is not measured by the pH of the water.
So I was ditching the water and starting again without the acid addition and checking the mash pH after dough in and adding small amounts of acid every 15 mins to target my mash pH but found that I was only getting to around pH of 5.4 after about half the amount/number of additions and 45 mins into the mash phaseThe acid will drive the ph lower so the fact that you have only reached pH5.4 in the mash with half the acid when your target is pH5.3 makes perfect sense and suggest the calculators are working. Add more acid and I would expect your mash pH to hit your target of 5.3. I measure the mash pH about 10 minutes after mash in. There is little point in measuring it throughout the mash and attempting to adjust on the fly.
From my other reading/research it appears that the grain will add to the buffering effect of the water and the pH should be within predicted range during the mash phase and that may well be the case.
I have difficulty in just doing something without understanding what the outcome will be I need to understand what's going on and what causes change
So as indicated in my previous post I will adopt a different approach to how and when I add the acid (based on what Gordon Strong does targeting a pre mash pH of 5.5) in my next brew to see if that gives me the answer I am looking for. I suggest you concentrate on the mash pH not adjusting the brewing water to a particular pH.
Once I understand the "Why" of whats happening I will be more relaxed about the acid additions and how they will impact on my mash. Hope that helps. Make sure you understand pH, Residual Alkalinity and the effect of acid and the various ions on the mash pH.

Thanks for you input

Wobbly

 

[Blind Dog]

You may have come across them already, but I found these usedful for a layperson:
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/understanding-the-mash-ph/residual-alkalinity-and-mash-ph
http://byo.com/hops/item/1545-understanding-residual-alkalinity-ph-advanced-homebrewing

Maybe the red herring is that Mr Strong adjusts all his water to a pH of 5.5; I don't recall him saying this was to help adjust mash pH. As his method/system includes sparging I'd suspect it might be to ensure there is no extraction of tannins during the sparge. Mere speculation on my part

 

[wobbly]

Black n Tan

Thanks for your input and in no way wanting to sound like a "Know it All". From my various readings I have a reasonable ( I use that term loosely) working knowledge of the effects of Residual Alkalinity, how acid will drop pH and what salts will do to the mash, boil and ferment etc.

And yes I agree had I chosen to add more Phos acid part way through the mash the pH would have gone lower.

I am using less than desirable brewing quality tap water diluted with 90% rain water and if I assume the rain water to be a blank canvas then the RA of the 38lt of tap/rain water mix brew water has an RA of something like about only "6ppm" that is assuming the Calcium, Magnesium and Alkalinity in the mix with 90% rain water values drop by an equal 90% which indicates to me that there is very little buffering capacity in the 38lt of water
With respect to mineral additions Bru'n and EZ Water seem to adjust accordingly but when it comes to the acid adjustment/addition the way I have been doing it to date is way off the mark and hence my intention to target acidifying the 38lt of brewing water (pre mash) to a pH of 5.5 as Gordon Strong and Sierra Nevada Brewing reportedly do and then make their brewing mineral adjustments, dough in and then add any further acid as required after checking the pH at room temperature after around 15 mins elapsed mash time
I just want to get a handle on this and in future be able to do as Manticle above stated add a "Bit of this and a Dash of that etc" because I will by then know how my system with my water will react.
If after the next brew I am still puzzeled as to what is going on I will get a sample of my tap/rain water mixed analysed as a next step.

Again thank you for your input

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[wobbly]

Thanks for those links Red Dog. I have seen and read them both before

The point a haven't/may not have made clear in this so far is with the mixed water profile I have put into both EZ and Bru'n and the grain bill to arrive at a mash pH of 5.3 both indicate that it is necessary to add a number of mls of Phos Acid.

In the last two brews I have done with the same grain bill the mash pH about 10 mins after dough in without any Phos Acid addition has been around 5.28 and slowly rises to around 5.4 during the mash which I guess would be in keeping with what the various authors have to say the impact of Calcium will have on mash water with a starting low to very low Alkalinity and they talk about values less than 50ppm

So what I am trying to come to grips with is why do both programs (spread sheets) call for around 2mls of Phos acid to be added to the mash water.

This position has raised it's head because I have been checking pH before dough in and throughout the mash so as to validate the spread sheets in my own mind and so far I don't have an answer/explanation for what I am seeing

Wobbly

 

[Black n Tan]

So what I am trying to come to grips with is why do both programs (spread sheets) call for around 2mls of Phos acid to be added to the mash water.

I have used both programs and have found them both to be predictive for my situation. I use soft and low residual alkalinity Melbourne water and for a a pale grain bill I would need to use about 2% acidulated malt to get the mash Ph to 5.3 with a thin mash (5L/kg grain). I am not sure on your grain bill but assuming it is pale and you have a thin mash and a seemingly low RA water then i am not surprised you need to a small amount of acid to get the pH to 5.3 as these programs suggest. So I think the more likely scenario is either a/ you have entered your water profile or your grain bill/mash volumes incorrectly, or b/ your rainwater is not a blank slate (may be it contains calcium or vegetation that has acidified the water). You seem to use both acidulated malt and phosphoric acid in the mash, which makes me wonder if you have correctly entered the acidulated malt (there is a drop down box in Brun water for acidulated malt).

 

[mabrungard]

Unfortunately, Gordon's advice is quite misleading and relatively useless. As noted above, he uses RO water for all of his brewing. For water such as that, it only takes a drop or two of acid to drop its pH to 5.5, but that has done nothing substantial to the brewing suitability of the water. The water in Chico, California is right out of the Sierra Nevada mountains and it too has very little mineralization or alkalinity. Like RO, it only takes a drop or two to drop its pH. Again a useless endeavor to the uninformed.

Water pH is a nearly useless indicator of a water's suitability for brewing. The primary thing we brewers are interested in is alkalinity. Depending upon the alkalinity of your raw water, using pH as the deciding parameter for your water treatment can leave you in big trouble. You actually need to know the raw water alkalinity and then add the proper amount of acid to bring that water's alkalinity down to under 25 ppm alkalinity.

Like many brewers, Gordon is not too interested in getting too much into water and its treatment. That is understandable since there are so many 'moving' parts when it comes to brewing water chemistry. But with a tool like Bru'n Water, a lot of regular folks have figured out how to adjust their water to fit all of their beers.

Brewing water chemistry is not EZ. Get the proper tool and take the time to understand it. You will be suitably rewarded.

 

[wobbly]

Thanks for your comments Martin

I will now go and get a sample of my water mix (10% tap and 90% rain water) analysed and start over rather than using the "Mean" data from the Water Authority and assuming that the rain water addition is virtually a blank canvas

Wobbly

 

[wobbly]

If/when one of the water tools (EZ-Water, Bru'n etc) calls for an amount of acid (either Lactic or Phosphoric) to adjust/lower the mash pH to the desired range how/when do you do it.

Do you add the acid at the same time as the other brewing salts before Dough-In, do you add it at the same time as you Dough-In or do you add it after you Dough-In

The reason I ask is that on the Brumeister Forum there is a topic discussing the time it takes to cycle the total mash water through the grain bed and for the mash pH to drop and stabilise with times of 10 minutes quoted

In the overall scheme of things it may not be important as far as having the correct/target mash pH early in the first phase if doing a step mash but I just thought I would see what others do

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[MHB]

With a bit of experience with your local water and the types of beer you are making you should have a pretty good idea what you need to add and what your water additions will do in terms of pH,
I am inclined to treat all my water in the kettle, heat to strike temperature, then pump the strike water as an underlet into the mash tun. The balance in the kettle pumped up to the HLT for further heating before sparging.
Once mashed in, take a sample and check the pH - adjust at need.

Just fine when using a "3V" system depending on what you are brewing on you will have to make changes to suit. When I brewed on a Braumeister I would mash in at 20oC recirculate for a few minutes test and adjust before starting the program. Plenty of options - but for me adding the salts before mashing in works best.
Mark

 

[Danscraftbeer]

2c. Wobbly. You sound more read into this than I am but you may as well just use 100% rain water knowing it to be a blank canvas. Eliminate some doubts.

I also remember a key point about the ph of the water to start with and how much does the PH mean? = Not much. Its the alkalinities and the grain.

I'm discovering things that surprize me on this water chemistry from experimenting and taking notes. Less is better you can add lots of added ingrediences that may just cancel each other out. Unnecessary added ingredients are unnecessary fussing about. I like the purity laws approach and the fact that the grains are the best buffering self adjusting part of it. You can simply make beer without any water additions at all but I am still fiddling looking to polish things too.
Taking notes is the key and the better reference than software in the long run. I imagine the software itself must have a disclaimer that sais these variations can happen.

Edit: Phosphoric Acid is sanitizer basically. Like Starsan. I can trust it a little as being no rinse but will not add it as an ingredient.
I am reluctant about artificial ingredients though.

 

[timmi9191]

Edit: Phosphoric Acid is sanitizer basically. Like Starsan. I can trust it a little as being no rinse but will not add it as an ingredient.
I am reluctant about artificial ingredients though.

Which acid (or other addition to effect water chemistry) would you consider not artificial?

 

[Danscraftbeer]

To add in short: My water to start with used to be ph-7. Now my filtered water I use is reading at 5.3! :huh: . That's the lowest I ever started with but the outcome PH of the mash can turn out the same at 5.2 is my target. My Melbourne tap water is typically 7.3 but at them moment its reading 6.8.
These thing just don't have significance at my layman level of scientific experiments.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Which acid (or other addition to effect water chemistry) would you consider not artificial?

Acidulated Malt. As its a product made for the purity laws. Or Sour mash? same thing basically. Raw grain naturally fermented by the Lacto something bacteria something something.

 

[timmi9191]

Acidulated Malt. As its a product made for the purity laws. Or Sour mash? same thing basically. Raw grain naturally fermented by the Lacto something bacteria something something.

How do you acidify sparge water with a malt?

 

[Danscraftbeer]

I used

How do you acidify sparge water with a malt?

I used to use Citric Acid (yeah yeah) but its a tiny wee amount and its made of citrus yeah? hehe. About >1g per 15lt water to get PH 6.4.
Now my filtered water is PH-5.2. That's good on its own without any additions. As far as I know.

 

[manticle]

You can buy food grade lactic acid - the same as in the acidulated malt.
Calcium sulphate and calcium chloride are naturally occuring salts.
Beer is not a naturally occurring chemical.

 

[MHB]

I don't have a problem with Phosphoric Acid but prefer Lactic as naturally occurring Lactic accounts for about 90% of the acidity in a mash, just adding a little more of what is there anyway makes sense to me. I am also a big fan of the buffering capacity that Lactic provides to the mash.
When it comes to Salts, used properly they can make a big difference to the beer, I also add some Zinc especially if I am using Australian malts as Australia is very Zn deficient.

pH on its own isn't very useful, used in conjunction with sensible salt additions it's about the most important controllable variables after temperature in mashing.
Have good control of your mash temperature and your water chemistry I think takes you a long way toward being able to repeatedly make good beer.
Mark

 

[timmi9191]

I used to use Citric Acid (yeah yeah) but its a tiny wee amount and its made of citrus yeah? hehe. About >1g per 15lt water to get PH 6.4.
Now my filtered water is PH-5.2. That's good on its own without any additions. As far as I know.

Did you ever consider the secondary effects that citric acid and excessive amounts of acidulated malt can have on the flavour profile. Phosphoric acid adds phosphates which are already in large amounts within the malt. My sparge acidification based on the silvan dam water report involves only .4ml of 96% phosphoric acid in 32l of water. Point being is that phosphoric acid is great to use for acidification and doubles as sanitisier.

I highly recommend reading "Water" by Palmer and Kaminski. Greatly improved by knowledge and my processes.