Brew Day Water pH

[wobbly]

Once mashed in, take a sample and check the pH - adjust at need.
When I brewed on a Braumeister I would mash in at 20oC recirculate for a few minutes test and adjust before starting the program. Plenty of options - but for me adding the salts before mashing in works best.
Mark

Thanks for your answers to date

I use a 20lt Braumeister and treat all my brewing water (mash and Sparge) with brewing salts (Gypsum and Calcium Chloride) at room temperature (prior to heating) and then drain off the sparge water volume

I use a percentage of Acid Malt in all brews generally 2% max and find that to achieve the target mash pH it is necessary to add some further acid in the form of Phosphoric or Lactic

My question related to when to add this additional acid

• Before Dough-In
• At dough-in ,
• After Dough-In

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[timmi9191]

I also add some Zinc especially if I am using Australian malts as Australia is very Zn deficient.

How much and what form of Zinc you adding Mark?

My thinking has been that yeast nutrient would add more than enough Zinc.

 

[Black n Tan]

I use a percentage of Acid Malt in all brews generally 2% max and find that to achieve the target mash pH it is necessary to add some further acid in the form of Phosphoric or Lactic

My question related to when to add this additional acid

• Before Dough-In
• At dough-in ,
• After Dough-In

Cheers

Wobbly

If you are not hitting your target mash pH, then why not just add more acidulated malt next time. I see some people that write a recipe that uses both acidulated malt and some acid, for reasons I am not sure. Of course if you measure your mash pH and it is a little high then you can always add some acid, but why formulate a recipe that includes both acidulated malt and lactic acid? Why not keeps things simple and use one or the other? But to directly answer you question, I would add before dough in so that the grain is not hit by a wave of acidity that may happen if you add after dough in.

 

[MHB]

Thanks for your answers to date

I use a 20lt Braumeister and treat all my brewing water (mash and Sparge) with brewing salts (Gypsum and Calcium Chloride) at room temperature (prior to heating) and then drain off the sparge water volume

I use a percentage of Acid Malt in all brews generally 2% max and find that to achieve the target mash pH it is necessary to add some further acid in the form of Phosphoric or Lactic

My question related to when to add this additional acid

• Before Dough-In
• At dough-in ,
• After Dough-In

Cheers

Wobbly

Salts before certainly, with the acid if you are confidant that your additions are going to be close then with the salts. Might not be a bad idea to hold back some of the acid and recirculate for about 10 minutes than tweak the pH.
Exception being Chalk as its practically insoluble I would sprinkle it on the malt, recirculate for 10 minutes than adjust, not that I am the worlds biggest fan of chalk, which is why I got to playing around with Calcium Lactate, Chalk and Lactic Acid react to make CaLac which is quite soluble and in conjunction with excess Lactic acid makes a very powerful buffer complex, so the pH tends to stay where I want it.

Just a note on Acid Malt, it is just Pilsner malt sprayed in Lacto broth and standardised so that 1% of grist will reduce the pH by 0.1 which makes calculations very easy. If you want to lower the pH a bit more just adjust your grist acid malt % as needed. Remember that the pH will take a little time to balance out, give it a chance before making adjustments.

Might be a good idea to lower the pH of your sparge water a bit more than you would your mash water, helps to block tannins leaching into the wort.
Likewise, adding Ca and adjusting the pH near the end of the boil has its upside, certainly will help break to flock and the yeast will be happy - around 5.0-5.2ph is good.

With brewing sometimes you just have to wonder if you should have started asking questions - every time you do it gets more complicated.
Mark

 

[MHB]

How much and what form of Zinc you adding Mark?

My thinking has been that yeast nutrient would add more than enough Zinc.

I use Zinc Chloride, very judiciously, too much is poisonous to yeast so when the nutrients are formulated they tend to be based on the Zn content of northern hemisphere malts that have more Zn than does Australian malt.
Although poison in large amounts, Zn is absolutely vital for yeast health. So I add 0.05mg/L of Zn, I have been wondering lately, given the number of people on AHB who whinge about stuck or incomplete ferments - are people using nutrients or getting enough Zn in their worts by other means, would be worth thinking about if you are having otherwise unexplained fermentation issues, particularly if they are using all Oz malts.
Mark

 

[Jack of all biers]

I use Zinc Chloride, very judiciously, too much is poisonous to yeast so when the nutrients are formulated they tend to be based on the Zn content of northern hemisphere malts that have more Zn than does Australian malt.
Although poison in large amounts, Zn is absolutely vital for yeast health. So I add 0.05mg/L of Zn, I have been wondering lately, given the number of people on AHB who whinge about stuck or incomplete ferments - are people using nutrients or getting enough Zn in their worts by other means, would be worth thinking about if you are having otherwise unexplained fermentation issues, particularly if they are using all Oz malts.
Mark

Yes Mark. You should forward them to this thread you had a hand in - http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/63985-water-chemistry-additions-of-zinc/page-2

EDIT - Mark, do you still sell food grade Zinc Chloride?

 

[manticle]

Mark sold the business to brewman so check there.

 

[Jack of all biers]

Nah, they don't seem to have it (can't find it with their search function). Found this site though, but not sure if its food grade? https://plantessentials.com.au/products/zinc-chloride-250g

EDIT - I contacted the above zinc seller (via a chat function on their website?) They stated that it's pharmaceutical grade, but cautioned against using it for brewing. They quoted Braukaiser (not sure if they just googled zinc and brewing) and suggested I needed zinc vitamin suppliment? They gave me this link http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2012/06/22/the-effect-of-zinc-on-fermentation-performance/ which at the very end states

"It is possible that the zinc had no effect and that the yeast sediment weight differences are the result of a random error. On the left is a picture of the ingredients label. Zinc is present in these caplets as Zinc Gluconate which may not readily release Zn2+ into the wort. The use of zinc chloride would have been more reliable, but I didn’t have that at hand. Maybe for a later experiment I get ZnCl2."

Just goes to show that some people don't know their product or don't bother reading the advise they are giving out.

 

[MHB]

I know Steve (Brewman) has some (I saw a bucket of it there recently), I'm sure if you contact him he will be able to help you out. I'll give him a nudge to put it on if he doesn't see this.
Just be very careful when measuring it out too much is very toxic to yeast, it is a vital enzyme cofactor for many of the reactions in brewing from mashing on through. I know most good yeast nutrients contain Zn, but most people ass that later in the boil, which doesn't help with the mash enzymes, nor some of the processes in the early part of the boil. Its one of those chemicals where I would be tempted to make a stock solution if I didn't have scales good to 0.01g.

Please understand that its not a magic bullet but its an important consideration and probably more important if using Australian malt. That said Kunze talks about ways to get more Zn into the wort within the confines of the Reinheitsgebot - so it is possibly a matter of concern even with much higher Zn German malt.

Another very important role for Zn in brewing is the effect on head, at levels that would kill the yeast in the fermenter - but that's a different conversation perhaps better in its own thread.
Mark

 

[Jack of all biers]

Cheers Mark. Yeah I was thinking of making a stock solution as per the thread I linked above. So I don't take this thread even further off topic I'll PM you.

 

[wobbly]

If you are not hitting your target mash pH, then why not just add more acidulated malt next time. I see some people that write a recipe that uses both acidulated malt and some acid, for reasons I am not sure. Of course if you measure your mash pH and it is a little high then you can always add some acid, but why formulate a recipe that includes both acidulated malt and lactic acid? Why not keeps things simple and use one or the other? But to directly answer you question, I would add before dough in so that the grain is not hit by a wave of acidity that may happen if you add after dough in.

In formulating a beer Recipe I tend to follow the KISS principle put forward by AJ deLange in this article http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460 and add about 2% acid malt to the grain bill. Adding further acid malt (Lactic Acid) to bring the pH of my typical Pale Ale recipe using my water would require about 6% acid malt in the mash according to Bru'n water which could/would boarder on taste threshold. OK in a some beers styles but not to my liking in most of my beers.
To adjust the mash pH to around 5.3 I use 2% acid malt and then further adjust with 85% Phosphoric Acid as required which can be around 3mils in a total mash volume of 32lts for a batch size of 25lts into the fermenter (I sparge with a further 6lts of treated water to get the pre boil volume)
If I revisit my initial question on when to add the acid I guess as MHB states if I'm confident with the results of Bru'n water then adding it to the mash water after adding the brewing salts (typically Gypsum and Calcium Chloride) would have the same effect as increasing the Acid Malt percentage in the grain bill. So adding say 75/80% of the indicated Phosphoric Acid (keeping some in reserve to fine tune the pH after about 10/15 mins recirculating in the BM) prior to Dough-In would appear to be an acceptable way to go knowing and understanding that the pH of the mash water prior to Dough-In will be quite low (mid/high 4's??) as a result of not yet having the buffering effect of the grain on the mash water volume.

I guess this leads me to another point.

• If my mash water after salt and acid addition and prior to Dough-In is in the mid/high 4's will the mash pH rise to the predicted level once the grain is added?

Maybe I am chasing something that doesn't have a significant impact on the brew anyway and hence my reasoning for seeking comment form others

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[Black n Tan]

I guess this leads me to another point.

• If my mash water after salt and acid addition and prior to Dough-In is in the mid/high 4's will the mash pH rise to the predicted level once the grain is added?

Maybe I am chasing something that doesn't have a significant impact on the brew anyway and hence my reasoning for seeking comment form others

Cheers

Wobbly

Now I understand why you use both and that makes perfect sense given your water and the taste threshold for lactic acid. Regarding your other questions, water pH is a poor predictor of mash pH, so measuring the water ph after adjustment will not tell you what the mash pH will be. I normally use acidulated malt but I had to make a SMASH beer for a comp so had to use lactic acid. I worked out how much I would need and used a little less to be safe and then measured the water pH and it was 3.5 or some such, which seemed really low and worried me. I checked my calculations using a coupe of different methods and all looked in order so i went with it. Mash pH ended up being 5.2. Your water pH may be well different to this but still give you 5.2 in the mash.

 

[wobbly]

I worked out how much I would need and used a little less to be safe and then measured the water pH and it was 3.5 or some such, which seemed really low and worried me. I checked my calculations using a coupe of different methods and all looked in order so i went with it. Mash pH ended up being 5.2. Your water pH may be well different to this but still give you 5.2 in the mash.

I'm encouraged by your results/comments and will give adding about 80% of the calculated the Phosphoric Acid to the mash water prior to Dough-In next brew

The reason for going down this like of inquiry is that it can take 10 to 15 minutes for the mash to become stable after adding Acid post Dough-In with the recirculating Braumeister system and if you have to do it a couple of times it can be up to half an hour post Dough-In before you hit on the target mash pH and my concern is that the conversion will/may be compromised by this lag

As stated above maybe this "delay" doesn't matter in the whole scheme of things but it is something I would like to avoid if I can

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[MHB]

Wobbly
Do me a favor, make up a CaCl2 solution in a clear glass, add some of your phosphoric acid and tell me what happens.
Cheers Mark

 

[GalBrew]

I'm encouraged by your results/comments and will give adding about 80% of the calculated the Phosphoric Acid to the mash water prior to Dough-In next brew

The reason for going down this like of inquiry is that it can take 10 to 15 minutes for the mash to become stable after adding Acid post Dough-In with the recirculating Braumeister system and if you have to do it a couple of times it can be up to half an hour post Dough-In before you hit on the target mash pH and my concern is that the conversion will/may be compromised by this lag

As stated above maybe this "delay" doesn't matter in the whole scheme of things but it is something I would like to avoid if I can

Cheers

Wobbly

I have never used a BM so this might be a silly idea, but can't you give your mash a good stir rather than wait for the recirculation to even your mash pH after salt/acid additions?

 

[btrots87]

I think what MHB is getting at is that most phosphate salts aren't soluble in water. If you use phosphoric acid to acidify your mash you will end up precipitating a lot of your calcium and probably magnesium out of solution which you don't want.

For this reason I would use a different acid.

 

[MHB]

I would have preferred he saw it happen rather than just be told - nothing teaches like doing.

M

 

[timmi9191]

Phosphoric acid us typically a solution not a salt. Precipitation of calcium isn't a spontaneous reaction. Phosphoric acid is a great acid to use, particularly if you are using acidulated malt and don't want to push the lacto flavour threshold.

 

[wobbly]

Wobbly
Do me a favor, make up a CaCl2 solution in a clear glass, add some of your phosphoric acid and tell me what happens.
Cheers Mark

This is what Martin Bruingard has to say about Lactic and Phosphate Acid when used in brewing water

Lactic Acid is readily available for brewing use, but it can produce a distinctive “tang” in the flavor profile at high concentration. Phosphoric Acid can also be used and it has little flavor effect since this acid is similar to the malt acids produced through mashing. Phosphoric acid does not cause excessive precipitation of calcium in the mash and can be used freely in brewing. Hydrochloric and Sulfuric acids are strong acids that also contribute chloride or sulfate ions, respectively.

From what I have read he is up there with the experts such as AJ deLange and John Palmer when it comes to brewing water treatments (he along with AJ deLange reviewd and assisted in writing the introduction to Palmer's book on water) so based on what he has to say I will continue to use Phosphoric Acid for now.

I'm not trying to be a smart arse here just being guided by someone with a lot more knowledge on the subject than I currently have and I'm happy to take on board information/recommendations from more experienced brewers/water chemists than I currently have

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[wobbly]

I have never used a BM so this might be a silly idea, but can't you give your mash a good stir rather than wait for the recirculation to even your mash pH after salt/acid additions?

You can/could but like a lot of other BM users I have now adopted a no sparge/flooded/full volume malt pipe mash where in my 20lt unit you Dough-In with the standard 25lt and then place your top screen and hold down bar in place and then add a further amount of mash water probably 10lts which results in the mash/malt pipe hold down bar being submerged under the hot mash liquid so to remove the top screen and stir the mash you need to draw off 10/12 lt of mash liquid remove the hold down bar and top screen stir the mash replace the top screen and hold down bar and then add back the mash liquid you drew off

Doable but all just gets a but messy

Thanks for your thoughts/comments anyway

Cheers

Wobbly