Brew Day Water pH

[wobbly]

I note in Gordon Strong's book "Modern Home Brew Recipes" he comments that his and the Sierra Nevada Breweries standard practice is to treat all of their brewing water (mash and sparge) with Phosphoric Acid to a pH of around 5.5 before they do anything else like adding any grains to the mash tun etc. Nowhere in Gordons recipes can I see where, as a routine, he uses Acid Malt as part of his Grist/Grain Bill make up. This isn't in keeping with the philosophy on brewing water chemistry detailed by AJ deLange or Martin Brungard

Do other "All Grain Brewers" adopt a similar approach or do they follow the outputs of software such as Bru'n Water, EZ Water etc and leave there brewing water (RO, Distilled, Tap or Rain Water) at what ever it's pH value is and build the brewing water profile (by adding brewing salts) based on the grain bill and use either Acid malt or Liquid Acid to trim/adjust the final pH value.

What would the advantage be of adjusting the brewing water pH as a first step?

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[evoo4u]

Caveat - I'm a learner with water pH.

I understand that water (rain water in my case) has a low buffering power, and it's native pH is overwhelmed by the effect of the grains in the mash. To me, it follows that there's not much point in adjusting the pH of the water prior to the mash. I'll be happy to get to know MY water's properties down pat, and concentrate on, and adjust, the flavour aspects (ie - hoppy vs malty) I'm after in a particular brew.

On the other hand, if the raw water has a significant mineral content, then maybe it's beneficial to adjust it's pH first. But with rainwater, I can't see the benefit of fiddling with the pH pre-mash.

 

[manticle]

My understanding has always been to adjust mash pH, acidify sparge water where necessary.

 

[rude]

I spose if they know the beer (grains used)

They know the mineral content of the water

Then they would know that they need a certain ph of the water to get it where they want it

Bit like using Brun Water Calc

I spose he cant do that in his recipes because he does'nt know you're water mineral content

Disregard this if thats not what you ment as Ive had a couple

 

[wobbly]

Strong's book states his water is horrible for brewing so he uses RO water which you would think would be low in Alkalinity. He comments that he checks the Total Dissolved Solids and adjust his mash water with Phosphoric acid to around 5.5 and then adds salts to suit the style he is brewing.

There is an "inference" that Sierra Nevada also use RO water (no direct quote) and that they stated/indicated at a workshop that they adjust all the brewing water to 5.5 pH

Not sure where this topic will lead but I thought I would just put it out there to see what others do

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[rude]

I use Ro but have been using acid malt to correct ph

Did try at local lhbs to get phosphoric as it appealed to me but he didnt have it

I put salts in the grist & kettle to suit style then underlet

 

[Blind Dog]

I used to measure brewing water pH (with the low range strips) and then the mash, but consistently found that for all but the lightest beers (Pils, kolsch etc) mash pH was in the target range without acid additions, and a small % of Acidulated malt got the mash into the right range for the light beers. I rarely bother to measure it anymore

 

[Cervantes]

I use RO water and the EZ Water spreadsheet to calculate the mineral and (Lactic) acid additions, which I add before mashing in. I then check the PH during the mashing process and adjust if I need to, which isn't very often.

 

[wobbly]

Did try at local lhbs to get phosphoric as it appealed to me but he didnt have it

Grain and Grape have 85% Phos http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/products/category/MYPFQKLF-adjuncts-and-chemicals/8ACID%20PHOSPHORIC%20250%20ML and they will post it to you.

You need to ring and speak with one of the staff to organize it because it isn't a standard parcel post

I had a bottle sent to me (Melbourne to Bibra Lake WA) and from memory the additional postage cost for it was about another $8

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[wobbly]

If/when using Lactic (88%) and /or Phosphoric (85%) acid with "soft water" (RO or rain) generally the amount of acid required to adjust the water (based on Bru'n Water) is very little and not easily measured even with a mini medicine measuring syringe.

Do any of you dilute your acid with distilled water to reduce the strength and make the measurements easier to read and therefore reduce the likely hood of adding too much

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[manticle]

No but I've become quite lax with how I measure most things, even grain, hops and water volume. Temp I'm still anal about but everything else is more like cooking for me these days. I know my system and I know the resulting beers and my preferences so a sprinkle of this, squirt of another and a dash of something else make delicious results, gravity and final volume bang on each time. I'm blessed with very soft, clean starting water and would only ever recommend this approach to someone who is very comfortable with their system, processes and results.

 

[rude]

I like you're chef outlook gold

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Now I have a good PH probe I find my filtered Melbourne Water is ph-6. Pre filtering its more like 7.3. Unsure of the chemistry going on their but at ph-6 its perfect for pale beer. 2.3% Acidulated Malt gets the mash bang on ph-5.2. I love it when that happens. No adjustments necessary.
Only additions for a 40lt brew is a measly 1 gram of Calcium Chloride and 1 gram of Gypsum for the 22lt Mash water.

Just a question: I don't see many using Citric acid to adjust mash PH. is there some reason why? I used to use it (only tiny amounts needed) but its just about getting the right percentage of acidulated malt now.

 

[wobbly]

OK can someone (anyone) offer me an explanation/advise.

Note I brew with a 20lt Braumeister

I am new to "Soft water" (rain water) brewing and water adjustments for both pH and salts.

I have a reliable pH meter that reads to two decimal places and is calibration checked before each brew

My tap water is high in Chlorides (165ppm+/-) Sodium (105ppm+/-) Lowish in Sulphate (20ppm+/-) Lowish in Calcium (25ppm+/-) Alkalinity (77ppm+/-) Hardness (90ppm +/-)
These figures are from the water authority and are the annual "Mean" so could be lower/higher month to month. I haven't had the water specifically tested

To reduce the Sodium and Chloride levels back to lower levels I have diluted with 90% rain water (assumed virtual blank canvas) for a total brew day water (mash and sparge) of 38lts.

For a grain bill of 3.5kg Ale malt (5.6 EBC) 600g Munich (14 EBC) 300g Wheat (3.5 EBC) 250g Carapils (3.9 EBC) 100g Acid Malt (3.5 EBC) Bru'n Water for a particular water profile indicates to add 5.6g Gypsum, 3.5g Calcium Chloride and 2.28 mls of 85% phosphoric acid to achieve a pH of 5.32 (EZ Water indicates similar figuares)

I added the salts to the brew water (not acid yet) and dough in and wait 10/15 mins and take a sample cool to 20C and and pH indicates 5.28?

After a further 10/15 mins I take another sample cool to 20C and the pH now reads 5.36. Added 0.5mls of 85% Phos Acid waited 10/15 mins and took sample cooled to 20C and pH now 5.28

What I am struggling with/to understand is:-

1) Why is the initial pH reading after 10/15 mins (5.28) lower than subsequent reading (5.36)?
2) Why are both Bru'n and EZ Water indicating to add up to 4 times the amount of 85% Phos Acid as physical sampling/testing indicates. Is it that my water mix has virtually no buffering capacity (low/zero Alkalinity)

Today's brew is the second I have done with my "Rain Water" mix and the above grain bill and on both occasions the results/trend has been the same ie. Initial pH reading low and only requiring to use a lot less Phos acid than indicated by the software.

Any advise/comments would be appreciated

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[wobbly]

Following on from the above questions according to this article:- http://accidentalis.com/archives/828 the pH of the mash will rise following dough in due to the buffering effect of the various malts on the mash water which answers my first question

However I am still a bit confused about why both Bru'n and EZ Water are over shooting the amounts of acid (phos) required by about a factor of 4. I have been back and looked at the inputs on numerous occasions looking for a basic mistake to jump out at me (light bulb moment) but all to no avail so far. I have checked the syringe I am using just to make sure that it in fact graduated in mls.

Clearly there must be something amiss with my inputs seeing both programs report the same acid requirement!!!!!

Wobbly

 

[Cervantes]

Wobbly,

Maybe try with 100% rain or RO water and see if you still get the same results.

It could be that the 10% tap water is way out from the water reports and is throwing the spreadsheets off.

Or maybe not.

 

[Cervantes]

Do any of you dilute your acid with distilled water to reduce the strength and make the measurements easier to read and therefore reduce the likely hood of adding too much

No. I'd never thought of that before. I only have to add a few ml of lactic and just use a small syringe.

 

[wobbly]

Wobbly,

Maybe try with 100% rain or RO water and see if you still get the same results.

It could be that the 10% tap water is way out from the water reports and is throwing the spreadsheets off.

Or maybe not.

Hi Cervantes

I'm at loss as for the pH to drop so dramatically you would think it would be associated with there being virtually no buffering (bicarbonate or carbonate) in the water. I have set both of these values to zero and still get a requirement to add around 2.28mls of Phos Acid. What I don't understand is that when I add that amount of Phos Acid for the grain bill as per post my post #14 the resultant pH of the mash water prior to adding the grains is in the mid 3's measure at room temperature

In your post above you are adding a "few ml" of lactic acid without issue.

In post #8 you indicated that you add your minerals and lactic acid to you brew water before mashing in. Have you checked the pH of the brew water before you have added the grains and if so what is it?

Maybe I'm stressing over nothing and that if/when I add the grains the mash will sort it self out.

Maybe this is a light bulb moment!!!!

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[Cervantes]

In post #8 you indicated that you add your minerals and lactic acid to you brew water before mashing in. Have you checked the pH of the brew water before you have added the grains and if so what is it?

Maybe I'm stressing over nothing and that if/when I add the grains the mash will sort it self out.

Wobbly,

No I don't think that I have. Unfortunately I'm away at work at the moment, so can't check my records.

Personally I don't get too excited about the water chemistry side of things. I just fiddle around in EZ Water, add roughly what it tells me to and generally end up with pretty good beer.

 

[wobbly]

Hi Cervantes

It's not my intention to get anal about it all either.

My view on this and life in general is to find out/understand as much as you can about a process/environment and then take from it a little or a lot depending on how important it is to you or the process.

Next brew I will try just progressively dosing the mash water with increments of the recommended Phos Acid amount until the water gets to pH 5.5 and then dough in and see what the mash pH settles out at and then as/if necessary add further small amounts until it hits target. That will put me in the ball park for future brews.

Cheers

Wobbly