Braumeister step mashes?

[minimalizarte]

Hey all,

Since a lot of you have experience with the brewmeister, I was wondering if you had any tips for the mash program for the machine? I'm going to be working with a 200 liter machine and it's gonna be my first. The introductory guide puts down that the mash program should be:

TEMP: 52 - 63 - 73 - 78
TIME: 10 - 35 - 35 - 10


I don't really trust the guys who write guides though, and thought that an additional mash step at 68 would help with the body of the beer. The majority of my beers have been single infusion mashes, so I was thinking along the lines of:

TEMP: 52 - 63 - 68 - 72 - 78
TIME: 10 - 35 - 30 - 15 - 10


Since I'd be brewing American pale ales, amber ales, and IPAs, I figured this kind of step mash would give a good amount of body. But I wanted to know what you think.

If you have any advice, let me know.

 

[Howlingdog]

You're the first person I've heard of with a 200 litre BM. I suppose you'll have to suck it and see. The first time I used my 20 litre BM I followed the manual to the letter and it was just as they said. 200 litres is a lot to lose though if you deviate from the start. However, it would appear that you want to go your own way straight up. Your call.

HD

 

[minimalizarte]

The thing is, I've tried 5.5% brews that were made using the guide's mash temps and felt that they severely lacked body. This could be for a variety of reasons, but the mash steps seemed like the main cause.

I'd only really be programming an additional step and reducing the 72 degree step to farmhouse and ipa recipe times.

 

[DeGarre]

To be honest, I really can't see much of a difference in the end result whether I just mash in at 45 and held it at 65 or have a convoluted 5 stage schedule. But I mix it up across styles like Belgian ale and hefeweizen - just because I can with BM.

 

[minimalizarte]

So in general, you feel that varying the mash steps doesn't do much to change the character of the beer with the braumeister?

 

[GuyQLD]

To be honest I think it would be grist specific. 52'C is right in protein rest country and may do more damage than good if your grain bill is moderately - highly modified malts. What malts are you using? If you aren't using a fair whack of german malts or high protein malts that are under modified I'd consider either moving the 52'C to 55+ or removing it altogether. If you're using something like 100% Marris Otter (lower protein and highly modified) then it's actually going to be detrimental to use the 52'C rest.

The hochkurz mash schedule, 62'C:40mins, 68'C/72'C:40mins, 75'C+ Mashout is becoming quite popular with modern malts and should achieve what you want. Would be a breeze in the BM.

 

[minimalizarte]

I'm using pilsner malt mostly with some additional crystals

 

[QldKev]

With ANY malt I would not get rid of that protein rest. You're only running a 10min step so looks ok to me.

I've never read one of their guides, so cannot comment, but I would not use that mash schedule for the beers you want. All beer styles needs a different schedule. ok, maybe not all, but you get the idea, that there is not a one schedule that fits all when step mashing.

Since you want more body, from the APA/IPA styles I would try

55c/5min, 65c/45min, 72c/25min, 77c/10min.
I think this will put you into the ball park of what you are chasing.

 

[minimalizarte]

Ok cool. Those look pretty good and I will probably program one of the two. But tell me, would there be a fundamental difference between the two?

TEMP: 55 / 62 / 68 / 77
TIME: 5 / 40 / 40 / 10

TEMP: 55 / 65 / 72 / 77
TIME: 5 / 40 / 25 / 10

Does the 72 degree rest do the same thing as the 68 rest, but faster?

 

[minimalizarte]

I ask mainly because for the last couple years I've been doing single step infusion mashes at 68, and have gotten beers with a good amount of body with a dry finish.

 

[Dan Pratt]

Im about to give you heads up, but dont take it personally.

If you have access to or have bought a 200lt BM and you dont understand what temps do what to your beer then you are out of your depth.

Please read from this website http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Braukaiser.com and then maybe the Alamanac of Beer Brewing and you should then be able to mash grain knowing what each temp does or doesnt do to your final beer.

Seriously, no offence intended just got very bothered from reading this.

 

[minimalizarte]

Pratty, one thing is knowing what they do and another is learning from experience. Books can only tell you so much; I know the theory behind the temperatures but have yet to experience the differences in taste and body with this specific machine. With my other kettles I originally started out doing step mashes before and switched to single step infusions mainly because they saved time and the quality was consistently good.

I have met plenty of people who use BMs and do a three step infusion (55, 68, 78). Other people I know tell me that the temps aren't an issue with the BM, that whatever the guide says is good enough. I disagree simply because the taste doesn't correspond with my experience, the temperatures don't really match with my experiences, and I was looking to compliment the existing guidelines with a step that could enhance the body. If other people have different advice, I'm glad to hear it and willing to try it out so that I can learn from the experience.

Telling me that I'm out of my depth when I'm using a machine that dummies could brew beer with - simply because I want to learn the technical differences between a step at 68 degrees for 40 minutes and a different one at 72 degrees for 25 minutes - doesn't exactly help. I appreciate the honesty of your opinion, but what I want to know pertains to a technical detail which isn't available in the dozens of brewing books I have gone through.

 

[minimalizarte]

And to give you an example of something that can't be learned from the books, look at the example of the "no chill" method. Just about every single resource out there will tell you that you need to chill your wort as quickly as possible to have a clearer beer, avoid DMS, and avoid bacterial infection.

Closing the wort in a hermetically sealed container and leaving it to chill overnight goes against all of that advice, yet it works perfectly. I've been using the no chill method for over a year, and as long as the sealed container is properly cleaned and I do a ninety minute boil, neither DMS nor infection is an issue.

 

[Dan Pratt]

fair call minimalizarte,i get where your coming from. Ive tried all kinds of mashes with the BM but I felt a little peeved that you went large on equipment by buying a 200lt and didnt know the difference, Trial and error is one thing, but at that scale, getting it wrong can be costly... my bad.


Let me share with you something about mashing temps.




Im still trying to figure out the best mash profile for the beer I make but one thing I do know is...when mashing low - 55 - 64 it will create alot of fermentable's = lighter body / higher attenuation ( depending on yeast still ) and mashing higher with temps 67 - 74 will create alot of unfermentables = fuller body and lower attenuations. So to get more body, ferment higher eg 68 and then at 72 you will create alot of unfermentable chains that will remain in the beer making it full.

When i make a full body beer, I still mash at 50c, 62c for only 10 mins, then i go 68c for 45 and 72c for 20 mins, sometimes skipping 72 and mashout and mashing at 74c for 30 mins. They will all make good/great beer.

Can I just ask, why didnt you learn this from brewing on a 20 or 50lt before upscaling?

 

[minimalizarte]

Those temps more or less correspond with what I am familiar with and have experienced. I have always had good beer mashing at 68.

I am working with a 200 liter machine more out of serendipity than anything else. Some friends have opened a brewery and are having a tough time making good beer. They really like my beer and since I've been brewing for a few years, they asked me if I would like to be the brewer.

 

[pommiebloke]

Some friends have opened a brewery and are having a tough time making good beer. They really like my beer and since I've been brewing for a few years, they asked me if I would like to be the brewer.

WTF? They opened a brewery and are having a tough time making good beer!?

Maybe they should have learned to brew BEFORE they opened a brewery. :unsure:

 

[doon]

What country is OP in?

 

[minimalizarte]

@pommie My opinion exactly. They hadnt brewed a batch in their lives until a month ago. I went the other way and have been improving my brewing skills over the last three years - I was going to open up a nanobrewery using blichmann kettles next year. These guys went and bought a whole set up, and are way in over their heads. If it all works out, I will have saved a fortune.

@doon Spain.

 

[minimalizarte]

Okay, back to the OT. So now we have two contenders:


Mash suggestion A:

TEMP: 55 / 65 / 72 / 77
TIME: 5 / 40 / 25 / 10


Mash suggestion B:

TEMP: 50 / 62 / 68 / 72 / 74
TIME: 5 / 10 / 45 / 20 / 20


I liked the hochkurtz suggestion, but will have to save that for a lighter ale or wheat. The mash suggestion B is closer to what I had originally proposed in that it favors the formation of unfermentable sugars to get a bigger body. Anybody favor one or the other?

 

[QldKev]

Ok cool. Those look pretty good and I will probably program one of the two. But tell me, would there be a fundamental difference between the two?

TEMP: 55 / 62 / 68 / 77
TIME: 5 / 40 / 40 / 10

TEMP: 55 / 65 / 72 / 77
TIME: 5 / 40 / 25 / 10

Does the 72 degree rest do the same thing as the 68 rest, but faster?

Check out step 2. Both are 40min, but one is 62 and the other is 65.
At 40mins the bulk of the starch conversion will get completed.
62c is favoring a dryer/thinner beer
65c is getting you up into a mix of Beta and Alpha amylase conversion for a balanced beer. (66 is the magic all round number, if you were not doing another step)
So the second will result in the thicker beer.

Then step 3.
68c Beta amylase will still be fairly active, continuing the short chain sugars that produce your thin beer. But Alpha will be kicking up a lot.
72c Beta amylase are denatured. So only the long sugars (thicker beer) are being produced by the Alpha boys.

The 2 beers would obviously be very different.

QldKev