Bore Water contains Iron & Copper
- Thread starter RichardLavender
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RichardLavender
Active Member
Yes there are trees around the tanks as well as around the house. Poincianas are all around the tanks. Gum trees are nearer to the gutters of the house. I make an effort to keep the tank screens clean (small openings at the top of the tanks). Leaf debris does build up in the gutters but I keep that clean once every two to three months. And, with that written the build up is a small area where the build up seems more congested than other parts of the roof. I would say that the gutters are alway 85% clear of leaves.
RichardLavender
Active Member
The best $5.00 I've ever spent.
Here are the test results from the pool company who has computerised water testing software.
Total Alkalinity = 96
pH = 6.5
Calcium Hardness = 185
Phosphate = 0.1
Iron = 0.3
Copper = 0.1
Salts = 80 *
* Note our property is located on the land side of the ocean. It has been raining for the past few days (monsoonal downpours)
The above results are pretty damn close to being accurate. Whereas the below test results are from the drinking water kit I purchased. The most important deviation between the test results is the pH reading.
Chloride = 500
Iron = 0
Copper = 0.1
Sulfate = 250
Alkalinity = 8.0
pH between = 4.0 to 5.0
Total Chlorine = 0 (as expected)
Total Hardness = 0
Nitrate = ?
Nitrite = ?
Bacteria = Positive (from tank)
Free Chlorine = 0
H2S = 0
If you're willing I look forward to your observations, suggestions and comments - THANK YOU!
BTW - put together two brews yesterday with the same kit ingredients with the only difference is the water. Something tells me that there will very little difference in taste. The other conclusion I'm hoping to achieve is to NEVER use Dextrose or Brewing Sugar and always use a 'canned' light malt extract (liquid). I also hopped the brew with 20 grms of fresh Galaxy flowers - mmmmmmmmmm smells sooooo good - I might do a 'dry hop' two days before bottling.
Here are the test results from the pool company who has computerised water testing software.
Total Alkalinity = 96
pH = 6.5
Calcium Hardness = 185
Phosphate = 0.1
Iron = 0.3
Copper = 0.1
Salts = 80 *
* Note our property is located on the land side of the ocean. It has been raining for the past few days (monsoonal downpours)
The above results are pretty damn close to being accurate. Whereas the below test results are from the drinking water kit I purchased. The most important deviation between the test results is the pH reading.
Chloride = 500
Iron = 0
Copper = 0.1
Sulfate = 250
Alkalinity = 8.0
pH between = 4.0 to 5.0
Total Chlorine = 0 (as expected)
Total Hardness = 0
Nitrate = ?
Nitrite = ?
Bacteria = Positive (from tank)
Free Chlorine = 0
H2S = 0
If you're willing I look forward to your observations, suggestions and comments - THANK YOU!
BTW - put together two brews yesterday with the same kit ingredients with the only difference is the water. Something tells me that there will very little difference in taste. The other conclusion I'm hoping to achieve is to NEVER use Dextrose or Brewing Sugar and always use a 'canned' light malt extract (liquid). I also hopped the brew with 20 grms of fresh Galaxy flowers - mmmmmmmmmm smells sooooo good - I might do a 'dry hop' two days before bottling.
drsmurto
Well-Known Member
Salt is a generic term which describes a large number of ionic compounds with a metal cation and an anion, often inorganic (chloride, sulfate etc). It does not necessarily mean table salt (sodium chloride).
Can you get the pool company to give you a calcium level by itself in ppm rather than calcium hardness which is a total value including carbonates?
I'd also be asking for a sodium level given you have such high levels of chloride and sulfate, there is a cation/cations not being accounted for in these readings.
A $5 test? How are they testing it? What is the instrument they are using?
At the moment those numbers aren't overly helpful in working out your base water profile.
At a minimum I'd want to see calcium, sodium, chloride, sulfate and carbonate as individual components with units (mg/L aka ppm).
Can you get the pool company to give you a calcium level by itself in ppm rather than calcium hardness which is a total value including carbonates?
I'd also be asking for a sodium level given you have such high levels of chloride and sulfate, there is a cation/cations not being accounted for in these readings.
A $5 test? How are they testing it? What is the instrument they are using?
At the moment those numbers aren't overly helpful in working out your base water profile.
At a minimum I'd want to see calcium, sodium, chloride, sulfate and carbonate as individual components with units (mg/L aka ppm).
RichardLavender
Active Member
Thanks for that - The test is performed on a device where they place the water in a circular device that is placed inside a machine that seems to spin it and renders a printout - it's a lot better than the test strips.
The report that is offered and the categories is all that there is. What you're suggesting has to be done in Cairns and costs $350.00
The report that is offered and the categories is all that there is. What you're suggesting has to be done in Cairns and costs $350.00
drsmurto
Well-Known Member
$350? FFS. How can anyone justify charging that. I get samples analysed routinely for work and we pay $45 for several times more information than you are asking for at limits of detection in ug/L not mg/L.
Get in touch with these people - http://www.csiro.au/en/Do-business/Services/Testing-and-technical-services/Agro-Enviro/Analytical-services-unit
Based in Adelaide here on the Waite campus of the University of Adelaide. They will need <50mL so postage won't be too bad (~$10).
My lab is across the road from them and i deal with them regularly, great people. Let them know you want the details i listed above (calcium, sodium, chloride, sulfate and carbonate). I wouldn't worry about pH, just get the mineral salt analysis done. If you want pH I can run that in my lab, no cost, just post it to me. I'm yet to see pH papers or handheld pH meters more accurate than dunking a finger in a tasting it.
Cheers
DrSmurto
p.s I'm assuming i don't get some sort of academic deal so please check the prices with them first.
Get in touch with these people - http://www.csiro.au/en/Do-business/Services/Testing-and-technical-services/Agro-Enviro/Analytical-services-unit
Based in Adelaide here on the Waite campus of the University of Adelaide. They will need <50mL so postage won't be too bad (~$10).
My lab is across the road from them and i deal with them regularly, great people. Let them know you want the details i listed above (calcium, sodium, chloride, sulfate and carbonate). I wouldn't worry about pH, just get the mineral salt analysis done. If you want pH I can run that in my lab, no cost, just post it to me. I'm yet to see pH papers or handheld pH meters more accurate than dunking a finger in a tasting it.
Cheers
DrSmurto
p.s I'm assuming i don't get some sort of academic deal so please check the prices with them first.
RichardLavender
Active Member
Hi DrSmurto - thanks for your interest and suggestions/reactions - yes the cost is shocking. Turns out there is a CSIRO in Cairns and tomorrow morning I will call them and see if they can assist - They are a part of the James Cook University.
RichardLavender
Active Member
Thought I'd post the comment from the sales rep stating that we need to install a calcite filter on the tanks - only $1000.00
G'day , I didn't elaborate earlier that you need to check the pH on site.
pH is super sensitive to change, once you take the sample away from the main body of water the pH will begin to slowly rise.
A lot would depend on the time between taking the sample and when it was tested.
It's good enough to confirm yu do have a pH issue and that's all you realy need to know at this point.
An educated guess would put your real pH (onsite at about 6 pH I would think.
It realy doesn't matter unless we found it was lower than 5 which would change how we would approach the solution.
Right now nothing changes, the calcite filter is what's required either for drinking water only or for all of house, the call is back in your court I guess
He had previously written:
Ok , I'm pretty sure the pH will be responsible for most if not all of your problems, given what I've learnt about your situation.
The calcite filter will raise the pH to about 7.2 which would be perfect.
having said that , the pH will probably higher initially until the calcium fines are all dissolved, this could be a few days.
Your wife being itchy after showering would ordinarily be associated with alkaline water rather than acid, but one though may be that the acid water could be removing the oils from the skin leaving the skin dry, have here try some moisturizer after the shower, and let me know what happens.
The calcite filter is basically a sacrificial anode that the acid water takes it's aggression out on before it researched the copper pipes.
The water dissolves small amounts of calcium into the water which raises the pH and stops the water being aggressive on pipes and fixtures.
One thing I do know, is that the pump kicking in and out during the night is an indication of a leak somewhere in the system , so you need to find that as well. Also check the pressure bladder on the pump it's self before looking for more sinister things.
Here's the link to the filter system you need
https://www.filtersystemsaustralia.com/store/index.php/whole-house-calcite-filter-ph-neutralisation.html
G'day , I didn't elaborate earlier that you need to check the pH on site.
pH is super sensitive to change, once you take the sample away from the main body of water the pH will begin to slowly rise.
A lot would depend on the time between taking the sample and when it was tested.
It's good enough to confirm yu do have a pH issue and that's all you realy need to know at this point.
An educated guess would put your real pH (onsite at about 6 pH I would think.
It realy doesn't matter unless we found it was lower than 5 which would change how we would approach the solution.
Right now nothing changes, the calcite filter is what's required either for drinking water only or for all of house, the call is back in your court I guess
He had previously written:
Ok , I'm pretty sure the pH will be responsible for most if not all of your problems, given what I've learnt about your situation.
The calcite filter will raise the pH to about 7.2 which would be perfect.
having said that , the pH will probably higher initially until the calcium fines are all dissolved, this could be a few days.
Your wife being itchy after showering would ordinarily be associated with alkaline water rather than acid, but one though may be that the acid water could be removing the oils from the skin leaving the skin dry, have here try some moisturizer after the shower, and let me know what happens.
The calcite filter is basically a sacrificial anode that the acid water takes it's aggression out on before it researched the copper pipes.
The water dissolves small amounts of calcium into the water which raises the pH and stops the water being aggressive on pipes and fixtures.
One thing I do know, is that the pump kicking in and out during the night is an indication of a leak somewhere in the system , so you need to find that as well. Also check the pressure bladder on the pump it's self before looking for more sinister things.
Here's the link to the filter system you need
https://www.filtersystemsaustralia.com/store/index.php/whole-house-calcite-filter-ph-neutralisation.html
Jack of all biers
Well-Known Member
From which water source did the pool guys results come from? You stated that your intial results from the test kit were taken direct from the bore pump and that your tanks are 100% rain water at the moment. Just making sure you are compairing apples with apples and not oranges before you throw your test kit away (which I whole heartedly encourage you to do)RichardLavender said:
EDIT - The most important deviation is not only the difference in pH, but the Alkalinity and Hardness levels are quite different too. The Alkalinity and hardness suggest water of a reasonable hardness. It's within the 60 - 200 mg/L range which fits within the Australian Drinking Water Guidelines category of 'good quality', which really means water that won't eat your pipes. For all grain brewing 185 mg/L of CaCO3 is hard, but given you are kit and kilo brewing the hardness at this level won't be a disadvantage. Even if you later decide to, it can be easily adjusted depending on the brews needs. Dr Smurto's right though a thorough analysis would be better as there is a lot more that can be gleened, such as sodium content, metal contents etc.
Jack of all biers
Well-Known Member
WTF. Surely this is a questionable sales technique. It would have to be a fairly comtaminated test vessel to raise the pH by a magnitude of 5. Exposure to CO2 might reduce the pH, but to raise it would require some doing. Dr Smurto is this even remotely possible or pure B.S. to get $1000 sale.RichardLavender said:
Richard, if your pH is 6.5 you really don't have to worry about corrosion in your pipes. That pH is well within accepted guidelines from the US to Australia for municipal water supplies. Again if your bore water is lower and you plan on running this through your pipes - different story.
EDIT - I made the assumption that the pH of 6.5 was from your rain water tanks in my last sentence.
Ducatiboy stu
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I was also going to say WTF about the pH changing
From my days at school doing science I was of the assumption that you need to "do" or "add" something to the water to change its pH, unless there are chemicals in there that are causing a slow chemical reaction you water should not change its pH
From my days at school doing science I was of the assumption that you need to "do" or "add" something to the water to change its pH, unless there are chemicals in there that are causing a slow chemical reaction you water should not change its pH
Rosscoe
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I'm not 100% on top of water chemistry, but my basic observations over the years of living in the bush are as follows. Bore water is usually crap. Where I used to live, the iron content was so high, when you washed your cricket whites, they'd turn orange if you didn't use bleach. Not great for your beer either just quietly.
Rain water is usually very soft (unless you've got a dead possum in your tank) however this is much easier to work with as you can add ph stabiliser, gypsum, etc... from there to get to what you want for beer making. My two cents is to buy a decent carbon filter from Reece, stick it on your rain water tank or under your sink and be confident you've got a good base for your beer/coffee. After all, that's all it's good for right?
Rain water is usually very soft (unless you've got a dead possum in your tank) however this is much easier to work with as you can add ph stabiliser, gypsum, etc... from there to get to what you want for beer making. My two cents is to buy a decent carbon filter from Reece, stick it on your rain water tank or under your sink and be confident you've got a good base for your beer/coffee. After all, that's all it's good for right?
RichardLavender
Active Member
Jack - you're right again. I took the test water from the kitchen sink tap after running the water for a considerable time. The original test water sample was from the tap directly next to the bore pump.
Interesting your observations are that the water is not inclined to 'eat the pipes' whereas the sales rep insists we've go a real problem.
This is all very frustrating.
I'll be calling CSIRO this morning in a half hour.
Thanks Rosscoe & Stu for your comments
Interesting your observations are that the water is not inclined to 'eat the pipes' whereas the sales rep insists we've go a real problem.
This is all very frustrating.
I'll be calling CSIRO this morning in a half hour.
Thanks Rosscoe & Stu for your comments
drsmurto
Well-Known Member
pH rising after sampling?
We run a commercial analytical laboratory in addition to our research and we get samples from all over the country for analysis, pH is just one of the 100s of things we can analysis for. That's certainly not the advice we give our clients nor has it ever been my experience to see pH change in samples over time by enough to even bother reporting (we measure pH to 2 decimal places).
You are being hit hard with a sales pitch. You don't need a calcite filter to get good drinking water particularly if you have access to rainwater. Like many who have commented already in this thread, i grew up on unfiltered rainwater. I bought a house in the Adelaide Hills 10 years ago and immediately added another rainwater tank and had them plumbed to the house. An underbench filter system (sediment/carbon) was added to, partly to filter out the chloramine/chlorine in Adelaide tap water as we run out of rainwater mid summer, but also to remove the smokiness from the rainwater in winter due to ours and all the neighbours, slow combusiton heaters. For brewing I use the rainwater unfiltered although I am currently setting up the brewery to have it's own kitchen plumbed in with an inline filter more to remove any sediment that does build up on the elements in the HLT.
A universal 2 stage filter system is almost overkill but allows you to change the filters when you want to. I bought a box of 20 filters (10 sediment, 10 carbon) for $120 late last year. Will last 5 years.
I use rainwater exclusively for brewing but i have had my water tested a few times for the minerals i listed earlier so i know my water is <0.1 ppm in all the relevant brewing salts. It has some zinc due to the galv roof but not enough to affect the taste.
That all said, until you can provide a good analysis of the water, particularly the bore water with it's likely high content of iron, copper and sodium, I'd be sticking to rainwater. The often used phrase, if you can drink it, you can brew with it is not too bad although some people can drink VB......
We run a commercial analytical laboratory in addition to our research and we get samples from all over the country for analysis, pH is just one of the 100s of things we can analysis for. That's certainly not the advice we give our clients nor has it ever been my experience to see pH change in samples over time by enough to even bother reporting (we measure pH to 2 decimal places).
You are being hit hard with a sales pitch. You don't need a calcite filter to get good drinking water particularly if you have access to rainwater. Like many who have commented already in this thread, i grew up on unfiltered rainwater. I bought a house in the Adelaide Hills 10 years ago and immediately added another rainwater tank and had them plumbed to the house. An underbench filter system (sediment/carbon) was added to, partly to filter out the chloramine/chlorine in Adelaide tap water as we run out of rainwater mid summer, but also to remove the smokiness from the rainwater in winter due to ours and all the neighbours, slow combusiton heaters. For brewing I use the rainwater unfiltered although I am currently setting up the brewery to have it's own kitchen plumbed in with an inline filter more to remove any sediment that does build up on the elements in the HLT.
A universal 2 stage filter system is almost overkill but allows you to change the filters when you want to. I bought a box of 20 filters (10 sediment, 10 carbon) for $120 late last year. Will last 5 years.
I use rainwater exclusively for brewing but i have had my water tested a few times for the minerals i listed earlier so i know my water is <0.1 ppm in all the relevant brewing salts. It has some zinc due to the galv roof but not enough to affect the taste.
That all said, until you can provide a good analysis of the water, particularly the bore water with it's likely high content of iron, copper and sodium, I'd be sticking to rainwater. The often used phrase, if you can drink it, you can brew with it is not too bad although some people can drink VB......
RichardLavender
Active Member
Just called CSIRO and they do not do water testing here in Cairns. They had me speak with National Association of Testing and they referred me to the lab in Cairns that wants to charge $350.00
It was suggested that I send a 50ml sample to the west coast of AU - I have been told that the samples need to be received within 24 hours of sampling.
From experience the freight and postal service in AU do not understand overnight delivery - even if you pay for it. By the time the sample arrives the test water will be too old for testing.
I'm going in circles and will be taking donations for water testing - kidding
It was suggested that I send a 50ml sample to the west coast of AU - I have been told that the samples need to be received within 24 hours of sampling.
From experience the freight and postal service in AU do not understand overnight delivery - even if you pay for it. By the time the sample arrives the test water will be too old for testing.
I'm going in circles and will be taking donations for water testing - kidding
drsmurto
Well-Known Member
Give the Adelaide lab a call and ask them for prices. Don't worry about the time taken to send it to them, sometimes analytical chemists can be a little anal......RichardLavender said:
RichardLavender
Active Member
Thanks Dr for the words of wisdom - much appreciated. As noted above I am currently brewing two batches of Aussie Pale Ale. The only difference between the two is the use of water. In one batch I'm using store bought water and the other kitchen tap water boiled reaching a bubble and then cooled. Right now both are fermenting and my brew room smells delicious. I hopped it with fresh flower galaxy.
RichardLavender
Active Member
ENDLESS
I just called CSIRO and they tell me they do not do water testing. The transferred me to the Waite Campus to gain a recommendation for water testing.
I have left my details for them to return my call.
I just called CSIRO and they tell me they do not do water testing. The transferred me to the Waite Campus to gain a recommendation for water testing.
I have left my details for them to return my call.
Ducatiboy stu
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Rauchbier :icon_drool2:DrSmurto said:
RichardLavender
Active Member
Waite Campus just called and referred me to www.awqc.com.au who tell me a test will cost $236.00 and that test isn't a complete test.
No wonder these test strip kits are selling.
I'm going back to the pool company and take a water sample directly from the bore tap. While this test isn't perfect at least that way will have a more accurate pH reading and other related results - not specifically defined but seems to offer some insight. We know that bore water has minerals and we know that the pool company test does define Iron and Copper.
Seems like a carbon filter, and particle filters under the sink might be the conclusion of this discussion. And if the phosphate is 0 then the bacteria level is not in question.
Last night it poured and I should have put out my water collectors to fill. Of course as indicated above rainwater comes with another level of variables.
No wonder these test strip kits are selling.
I'm going back to the pool company and take a water sample directly from the bore tap. While this test isn't perfect at least that way will have a more accurate pH reading and other related results - not specifically defined but seems to offer some insight. We know that bore water has minerals and we know that the pool company test does define Iron and Copper.
Seems like a carbon filter, and particle filters under the sink might be the conclusion of this discussion. And if the phosphate is 0 then the bacteria level is not in question.
Last night it poured and I should have put out my water collectors to fill. Of course as indicated above rainwater comes with another level of variables.
