Biab & Protein Rest & Powells Malts

[mikelinz]

Sorry if this has already been covered, did a search and didn't find anything.

I purchased Ale, Pils and Wheat malt from Powells. When I picked it up it was recomended that I employ a protein rest. I assume by that they are saying that their malts are moderatly modified.

So how do I do this using BIAB. Do I mash in at 45-50c for 15-30 min (as per palmer - how to brew) and then ramp up to my usual mash temp.

I have noted that I need to aim for 68-70c for my system otherwise my wort is a bit too fermentable, lacking body. Would the less attenuated malt overcome this issue just by mashing at 66c? and what would be the effects on beer fermentability, clarity and head of not doing a protein rest.

Obviously from my questions you can tell I have never done a protien rest and started all grain with BIAB.

rgds mike

 

[Fourstar]

Sorry if this has already been covered, did a search and didn't find anything.

I purchased Ale, Pils and Wheat malt from Powells. When I picked it up it was recomended that I employ a protein rest. I assume by that they are saying that their malts are moderatly modified.

So how do I do this using BIAB. Do I mash in at 45-50c for 15-30 min (as per palmer - how to brew) and then ramp up to my usual mash temp.

I have noted that I need to aim for 68-70c for my system otherwise my wort is a bit too fermentable, lacking body. Would the less attenuated malt overcome this issue just by mashing at 66c? and what would be the effects on beer fermentability, clarity and head of not doing a protein rest.
Obviously from my questions you can tell I have never done a protien rest and started all grain with BIAB.
rgds mike

do a 15 min protein rest at 55deg (to help retain medium chian proteins) as lower temps to break these down and degade body and head formation.

I'd mash in @ 55 and rest for 10, then crank on your burner/urn and let it get to your mash temp. Dont worry about the modification of the malt vs body too much. just do your standard mash temp and you should be fine.

 

[zebba]

I'd mash in @ 55 and rest for 10, then crank on your burner/urn and let it get to your mash temp. Dont worry about the modification of the malt vs body too much. just do your standard mash temp and you should be fine.

Bag out, or leave it in? I ask not for the safety of the bag (as things can be done to stop it burning), but more for the quality of the mash - I've heard (no quotes) that a large portion of the conversion happens early on, so once your burner/urn gets the pot to 60ish might it start converting and your desired 68 degree mash turns out as equivalent to a 65 degree one?

If that even makes sense...

 

[Fourstar]

Bag out, or leave it in? I ask not for the safety of the bag (as things can be done to stop it burning), but more for the quality of the mash - I've heard (no quotes) that a large portion of the conversion happens early on, so once your burner/urn gets the pot to 60ish might it start converting and your desired 68 degree mash turns out as equivalent to a 65 degree one?

If that even makes sense...

commercial breweries almost always go through a temperature rise. Dont be too worried. after all it wont take 15 mins to get from 60-68. Unless your burner is a matchstick.

 

[Bribie G]

I've only done one protein rest with BIAB in the Urn, when I did an all Bohemian Pilsener. I did the 55 degree rest but made the mash a bit thicker, hoisted the bag clear of the element, switched on and raised the temp for about 15 mins, lowered the bag and stirred like buggery then I had on hand a stockpot of just - boiled water so I could adjust the temperature accurately, and a stockpot of iced water in case I had overshot. By the seat of my pants got it up to 66. It was a pretty frantic five minutes or so, but I got there. Advantages of having a HERMS I suppose, but like all things BIAB once you've done it a couple of times then you're right. :icon_cheers:

 

[raven19]

I have used a fair bit of Powell's malt in many of my AG brews recently and have just gone with a single infusion. No protein rests and I also use 0.5kg of wheat in most brews.

Had great clarity in Smurt's landlord recently also.

I don't BIAB, but I guess with the urn it allows an easier ramping up of temps compared to an esky setup (decoction then required).

In saying the above 4* knows what he is talking about! :icon_cheers:

 

[zebba]

commercial breweries almost always go through a temperature rise. Dont be too worried. after all it wont take 15 mins to get from 60-68. Unless your burner is a matchstick.

Actually I asked because for one of my pots on the stovetop DOES take almost 15 minutes! Even then I guess, you get to know your brewery and you figure how to work around things like this. And I don't use that pot anymore. Upgrades are coming through almost weekly atm.

 

[Fourstar]

Actually I asked because for one of my pots on the stovetop DOES take almost 15 minutes! Even then I guess, you get to know your brewery and you figure how to work around things like this. And I don't use that pot anymore. Upgrades are coming through almost weekly atm.

yeah, even still i wouldnt be too concerned. the amount of time it sits in the low end of b Amylase is negligible, especially considering the plan is 68 deg. heck, even go to 69-70 if you are really worried.

 

[Nick JD]

Could this be a possibility for a BIAB protein rest?

Using a different mash tun, do your protein rest at 55C for the required time and only use just enough water to saturate the grain and break the proteins up.

Then, calculating the strike temperature of your normal mash tun to allow for the 55C grain and using a smaller amount of strike water - dump your protein rested grain bag into your strike water and let it do it's sac rest at exactly the correct temperature.

Nuts?

 

[zebba]

Could this be a possibility for a BIAB protein rest?

Using a different mash tun, do your protein rest at 55C for the required time and only use just enough water to saturate the grain and break the proteins up.

Then, calculating the strike temperature of your normal mash tun to allow for the 55C grain and using a smaller amount of strike water - dump your protein rested grain bag into your strike water and let it do it's sac rest at exactly the correct temperature.

Nuts?

I dunno if it's nuts but prior to this thread that is what I would have done. Assuming it is only a short rest you wouldn't need anything flash (i.e. a bucket would probably do)

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Nick - thats a possibility. Its just an infusion step mash. Turned backwards like all BIAB is. Other brewing processes remove the liquid and leave the solid behind, BIAB removes the solids and leaves the liquid behind. Your suggestion is basically just going in reverse to get to the same location.

I think you would be better off with mashing in with a lower amount of liquid and dumping in a pot of boiling water - calculations done so you hit your correct temperatures. But there isn't any need, by virtual definition, in BIAB you have a direct fired mash tun.. so simply adding heat is the simplest way.

Turn burner/element on - stir - turn off when at appropriate temp.

For the record, I disagree with Fourstar about the temperature you should do your protein rest. 55 is a good temp when you are looking to just lightly enhance medium length proteins for a little head retention... something you would do in a fundamentally well modified malt. The assumption you are using with the Powels malt is that it is actually under modified; and IMO to compensate for that you would need a proper protein degrading rest at 50C.

To avoid over attenuation - I would look to split the difference on your time at lower temperatures. Do a short 50C rest - just 5 mins or so, then ramp up through to your normal mash temperature, but cut down the rest time at that temperature.

So you rest at 50 for 5 mins, you ramp for 15 mins - and you would have rested at say 68 for 60mins - I'd take that 20mins at the lower temps, divide by 2 (for ten minutes) and subtract it from your main mash time... so now its 5 - 15 - 50 - mash out.

You will need to do this every time you use this malt - so you will get a chance to tweak. If you are over attenuated a little, perhaps increase your main rest by a degree next time, or cut out an even greater proportion of the "extra" mash time. You will eventually arrive at a program that gives you what you are looking for.

 

[Nick JD]

What are the advantages of using under-modified malts?

 

[Fourstar]

For the record, I disagree with Fourstar about the temperature you should do your protein rest. 55 is a good temp when you are looking to just lightly enhance medium length proteins for a little head retention... something you would do in a fundamentally well modified malt. The assumption you are using with the Powels malt is that it is actually under modified; and IMO to compensate for that you would need a proper protein degrading rest at 50C.

Yeah you are right, you need more short chain proteins. Would a protein rest starting at 45 and continuing through a ramp period to sacch temps be out of line? Say 1deg/min?

 

[Thunus]

I have done a BIAB protien rest by mashing in with less than full water (As TB suggested) and used beersmith to calculate a volume of boiling water to lift mash to next temp (4.5 ltrs in my case) this works well as long as volumes are easily handled ie: any more than 5 litres and I would need to buy a new pot for the stove. Calculations from beer smith were spot on though. Not suprising as I guess it is just a step mash like 3 V's have done for years.

PS. Should add I haven't tried this beer yet, could taste like shit for all I know

 

[mikelinz]

Thanks for all the feedback.

I have a 70L gas heated mash tun and a 30L HLT that sits above.

So I assume a quick way to do this would be to mash in with a standard 2.5L/KG of water to end up at protein rest temp. After the rest I could then add the final Vol of the water from my HLT adjusted to bring it up to mash temp and fine tune with the burner/cold water. Then just treat it as every other BIAB.

Any fishhooks???

Rgds mike

 

[Thunus]

Thanks for all the feedback.

I have a 70L gas heated mash tun and a 30L HLT that sits above.

So I assume a quick way to do this would be to mash in with a standard 2.5L/KG of water to end up at protein rest temp. After the rest I could then add the final Vol of the water from my HLT adjusted to bring it up to mash temp and fine tune with the burner/cold water. Then just treat it as every other BIAB.

Any fishhooks???

Rgds mike

Sounds perfect. Just play around with the volumes in beer smith until you get the temps in a range that suits

 

[QldKev]

Sounds perfect. Just play around with the volumes in beer smith until you get the temps in a range that suits

Thunus knows all about playing with things


























ROFLMAO


QldKev

 

[Wolfy]

So I assume a quick way to do this would be to mash in with a standard 2.5L/KG of water to end up at protein rest temp. After the rest I could then add the final Vol of the water from my HLT adjusted to bring it up to mash temp and fine tune with the burner/cold water. Then just treat it as every other BIAB.

Any fishhooks???

If its the first time you've used it, you may also take and efficiency hit - something you may need to take into account with your recipe.
BIAB may help you in some regards, but don't be surprised if you're down on your efficency by quite a substantial amount.

 

[Mantis]

Made one brew with Powells ale malt and mashed as normal. Got 75% eff.
So this one must be modified well

spoellling

 

[RdeVjun]

I think you would be better off with mashing in with a lower amount of liquid and dumping in a pot of boiling water - calculations done so you hit your correct temperatures.

This is quite an interesting and timely discussion (with the onset of slightly cooler weather everyone naturally thinks of lagers, but I started lager season early! ).

I have been protein resting pilsner malts and taking them up to saccharification and mashout via decoction, it is a bit rough and ready, invariably needing adjustment with a kettle of hot water so I usually start with a thicker mash to permit some fine tuning additions. Decoction smells rather nice though, the lagers are lagering and tasting allright so far.

But it got me to thinking, where some adjunct like polenta has been gelatinised (i.e. boiled), is this the increase from protein rest achievable with it? I.e. the polenta porridge doesn't need the protein rest but that heat could be useful? My read is that it doesn't need the protein rest like the malt does so could be useful (if made up to the right volume) as an equivalent to 5L of boiling to rapidly step from protein to saccharification. Up until now I've used it at mash- in but I'm thinking I'll use it differently in future if anyone is willing to confirm this. (Or not, and I'll just try it anyway! )

Edit: Sorry, just so there's no ambiguity- I BIAB in a 19L stockpot. And loving it... :super: