Biab - All In One, Literally?

[barneyb]

Why do you guys still post here if you hate it so much?

The poor guy who asked about making VB for his dad is a good example of people letting their opinion get in the way of what the poster was asking - everyone wanted to be a comedian rather than give him some brewing advice.

To be fair there was a link posted to a thread made a few years back with the same topic. And that thread was also filled with the same shitty jokes.

 

[Nick JD]

... and then not bothering to read the question properly before loudly forcing their misguided opinion on all and sundry.

Then there is the guy that spent the boil precipitating all the undesirable compounds into the hot break and then proudly showed how he spent probably 10 times the wort cost in energy to concentrated it down and add it to his fermenter.

Dave - read your first paragraph above in the quote. You say that people don't read the post properly and then spout off the wrong stuff.

Read your second paragraph - that's me that did that. I left the break material behind and boiled the clear wort - not the trub.

I'd say the biggest dickhead is the one who complains about something and then does that something ... in the actual very same post.

You sir, get the bunny with the pancake on its head award of the month for the Most Hypocritical Post.

 

[black_labb]

i may be mistaken but i believe that bunny has 2 pancakes on its head

 

[bigfridge]

Dave - read your first paragraph above in the quote. You say that people don't read the post properly and then spout off the wrong stuff.

Read your second paragraph - that's me that did that. I left the break material behind and boiled the clear wort - not the trub.

I'd say the biggest dickhead is the one who complains about something and then does that something ... in the actual very same post.

You sir, get the bunny with the pancake on its head award of the month for the Most Hypocritical Post.

I don't beleive that I am worthy of your award.

When you say 'I left the break material behind and boiled the clear wort - not the trub', your thread has the title 'using the trub' and the photo's look very truby to me. If you have boiled and seperated the wort from the trub correctly, then the wort should be bright - without any tan coloured foam.

If you had read the article that MHB referred to, you can see that 'hot trub particles varied in size from 30 to 80 microns' - this is too small to filter out with your cloth so you must rely on separation via settling and decanting the clear wort off the trub.

So, it appears that you showed how you didn't remove the trub - both by your description of the process used, the photographic evidence of the trub still present and even the title of the thread. Other posters also drew the same conclusions and advised against using your proposed method.

You, sir, would appear to be a more deserving candidate for your award.

 

[shmick]

There are horrible people who, instead of solving a problem, tangle it up and make it harder to solve for anyone who wants to deal with it.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all. (Friedrich Nietzsche)

or maybe

Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. (Plato)

even

There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action. (Goethe)

can't beat

Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assaults of thought on the unthinking. (John Maynard Keynes)

but remember

The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes. (Winston Churchill)

 

[Nick JD]

You, sir, would appear to be a more deserving candidate for your award.

Since it was clear wort (of course it settles out - it takes about 30 minutes to get through the voile) that I poured into the pan off the top of the bowl leaving quite a bit of fine break material behind - a lot more than whirlpooling would ever achieve, I'd say that yet again you can have the bunny award - but as has been pointed out - maybe only with one pancake this time for your use of the word "micron" which sounds a lot like a bunny-sized moron.

But since you won't be convinced no matter what I say please answer me this: what does a beer with 1g of hot break in it taste like?

 

[WarmBeer]

There are horrible people who, instead of solving a problem, tangle it up and make it harder to solve for anyone who wants to deal with it.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all. (Friedrich Nietzsche)

or maybe

Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. (Plato)

even

There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action. (Goethe)

can't beat

Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assaults of thought on the unthinking. (John Maynard Keynes)

but remember

The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes. (Winston Churchill)

You forgot:

I wanna rock n roll all night. And party every day (Paul Stanley)

 

[bigfridge]

Since it was clear wort (of course it settles out - it takes about 30 minutes to get through the voile) that I poured into the pan off the top of the bowl leaving quite a bit of fine break material behind - a lot more than whirlpooling would ever achieve, I'd say that yet again you can have the bunny award - but as has been pointed out - maybe only with one pancake this time for your use of the word "micron" which sounds a lot like a bunny-sized moron.

But since you won't be convinced no matter what I say please answer me this: what does a beer with 1g of hot break in it taste like?

Micron is not my word Sir, it was a direct quote from the referenced article in the Brewing Techniques magazine.

But in answer to your question - 1 gram of hot break will not have any direct effect on the beer taste as it is effectively 50% protein, 20% hop resins with the remainder being other organic compounds, and any carried over into the fermenter will precipitate during fermentation.

But it can profoundly affect yeast performance by coating the yeast cells and inhibiting the movement of materials in and out of the cell membrane. It also absorbs a lot of the copper, iron and other heavy metals which are very toxic to yeast and can cause haze in the finished beer.

If you are still unsure of the benefits of eliminating as much hot break as you can from the fermenter, all professional brewers know that the best beers are made from bright worts. Charles Bamford also tells the story in his book 'Standards of Brewing' about 2 different shifts working at a large brewery. One shift brewer acheived good a good brewhouse yield and the beers always passed the sensory evaluation. Another brewer prided himself on having the highest brewhouse yield, but his beers were usually rejected by the sensory test and only used for blending. When they investigated they found that the second brewer was adding as much wort as possible (including the hot break) to the fermenter in his quest for maximum yield.

As the old brewer saying goes - 'May your worts run clear'.

David

 

[Nick JD]

So just to clarify (pun intended), when you said, "Then there is the guy that spent the boil precipitating all the undesirable compounds into the hot break and then proudly showed how he spent probably 10 times the wort cost in energy to concentrated it down and add it to his fermenter", you didn't really understand what was being done.

When you finally did understand what was being done (including completely missing the fact that 200g of sucrose went in there) and that a negligible amount of trub material was included in the trub/wort separation (just like commerical breweries transfer their trub to the lauter tun to reclaim the wort) you state, "1 gram of hot break will not have any direct effect on the beer taste..."

If I could find a picture of a Bunny with a cream puff on its head I'd post that too.

 

[haysie]

The poor guy who asked about making VB for his dad is a good example of people letting their opinion get in the way of what the poster was asking - everyone wanted to be a comedian rather than give him some brewing advice.

What a great "bump" for the VB thread.

I agree, if you hate all these posters and only the "old timers" are worthy of referral. **** off!

 

[manticle]

FFS - I give up
MHB

Why? Because someone wrote about having made beer in a less than textbook way that still tasted OK?

I really appreciate the scientific aspect you bring (and I've said it before) but there are loads of different experiences and loads of different beers being brewed in loads of different ways. Yes there is optimum but there is also DIY and working out how best to get to optimum while still making beer along the way. It's also a lot of information to take in and that is done slowly by most people.

Sometimes I get the impression you'd prefer no-one was allowed to talk about beer or make beer or offer any idea of their personal experiences unless they've got access to a stainless steel turnkey brewery and had completed a masters degree in Brewing Science.

If that's the case you should start the aussieprofessionalbrewer.com forum and ease up on being such a grumpy prick.

PS. I would always recommend people listen to you before they listen to me. That doesn't make my experience worthless - most of it comes from trying things out rather than just reading a book and most of my improvements have come from trying out the advice of other more experienced brewers (such as yourself, Screwtop and Butters when he was around) AND from reading books and articles.

 

[bigfridge]

So just to clarify (pun intended), when you said, "Then there is the guy that spent the boil precipitating all the undesirable compounds into the hot break and then proudly showed how he spent probably 10 times the wort cost in energy to concentrated it down and add it to his fermenter", you didn't really understand what was being done.

When you finally did understand what was being done (including completely missing the fact that 200g of sucrose went in there) and that a negligible amount of trub material was included in the trub/wort separation (just like commerical breweries transfer their trub to the lauter tun to reclaim the wort) you state, "1 gram of hot break will not have any direct effect on the beer taste..."

If I could find a picture of a Bunny with a cream puff on its head I'd post that too.

I must agree with you that I am having trouble understanding what you did, or why it was done. All that I can say is that if you wanted to make caramel by boiling sugar why did you go to the bother of adding a few mls of wort ?

BTW, I love the way that you take a snip of what I wrote to support your personal attack on me.

"1 gram of hot break will not have any direct effect on the beer taste..."

goes on to say:

"... But it can profoundly affect yeast performance by coating the yeast cells and inhibiting the movement of materials in and out of the cell membrane. It also absorbs a lot of the copper, iron and other heavy metals which are very toxic to yeast and can cause haze in the finished beer". These are not my words - I took them from a brewing textbook, but didn't reference it as I don't think that many people would have access to it.

Perhaps the BJCP in their study guide will be more relevant to your question about the effects of Trub on beer taste.

"To minimize the formation of fusel alcohols, one should try to keep the temperature down, make sure that adequate dextrinous sugars are available, and minimize the amount of hot trub present in the yeast cake. ... 'Solvent-like' describes an aroma and taste similar to turpentine or acetone that is often accompanied by a burning sensation in the back of the mouth. It is due to high concentrations of ethyl acetate and other esters, as well as fusel alcohols. Possible sources include underpitching, lack of oxygen, and fermenting on the trub, especially at elevated temperatures."


The simple answer is that you need your yeast to perform well otherwise they produce murky beer with off flavours and poor head retention.

HTH,

Over and out

 

[Nick JD]

Over and out

Yay!

 

[bigfridge]

I agree, if you hate all these posters and only the "old timers" are worthy of referral. **** off!

I don't hate all these posters, I just ignore them.

Much the same that I do with your posts Mt Haysie as I find that they contain little of value to me.

Time, I think for another holiday away from AHB land .........

 

[bigfridge]

Probably for the best, mate. For most people here this isn't a job.

EDIT: Or, how about contributing something meaningful, actually showing people how to do stuff rather than swooping down with harsh critisism and Copy and Paste from Commercial Brewing Textbooks whenever someone does something that doesn't conform to your set of brewing rules.

The reason I'm saying this is due to another "old school" poster on another one of my threads who came in with some very, very harsh critisism completely out of the blue. After a bit of analysis it turned out he was actually completely wrong and way off base. As much as you dislike the "young'uns" coming in here with their 500ml of separated wort from kettle trub and boiling up some candi syrup, there's a few here who dislike the harsh critisisms from those who sit on their high horses and only tell people where they went wrong. Often, it turns out like in this situation - being wrong themselves.

I guess I'm just getting sick and tired of people whose job it is to misread posts and then harshly critisise - only to realise that they were wrong and not admit it; and others actually appreciated that someone went out of their way to provide an alternate and different method to do something. Isn't that what making beer at home is all about?

In the distance a coyote howls accompanied by the sounds of tumbleweeds bouncing along .......

 

[manticle]

Stupidest thing is - no-one actually suggested that brewing with your break material was good or recommended - just that it wouldn't kill the beer if you did happen to get some or all in there.

Nick's first post was 'it's best not to ferment your break material'.

My tangential reply (imagine a discussion having a tangent?) was that I had done it when my equipment was limited and the resulting beer was OK. Subsequently upgrading my equipment and knowledge of brewing I now am able to leave most of it behind and therefore do so.

It may have a negative impact on the final product - I'm not going to dispute either the linked articles or brewers much more experienced than myself but ease up on being hypercritical especially when the advice offered is actually fairly congruent with your own (ie - best to leave your break material behind if possible).

 

[haysie]

I don't hate all these posters, I just ignore them.

Much the same that I do with your posts Mt Haysie as I find that they contain little of value to me.

Time, I think for another holiday away from AHB land .........

It doesnt look like you ignore them to me.

The only post of value ever directed for you was the last 2 words of my previous post.

Holiday? or are you just a BIG sore-loser.

 

[BjornJ]

I just deleted my previous post, it was dumb of me to include that picture.
I was not trying to make fun of anyone less fortunate or different, just saying not to argue on the Internet.

thanks
Bjorn

 

[ekul]

If I had a stainless steel/heat resistant vessel that had a conical bottom could i drain half a litre from the bottom after the mash to remove the hot break after it has settled? And then pitch the yeast? Using gas to heat it would be a little tricky so i'd probably have to use an immersion heater. This way i could biab in one vessel.

The only problem i can see with this is how to cool it during fermentation.

Even if fermenting won't work would draining the bottom of the conical kettle remove the hot break?

The reason i ask is that i may know of someone that has one for cheap/free.

Sorry to revive an old topic.

 

[Nick JD]

If I had a stainless steel/heat resistant vessel that had a conical bottom could i drain half a litre from the bottom after the mash to remove the hot break after it has settled? And then pitch the yeast? Using gas to heat it would be a little tricky so i'd probably have to use an immersion heater. This way i could biab in one vessel.

The only problem i can see with this is how to cool it during fermentation.

Even if fermenting won't work would draining the bottom of the conical kettle remove the hot break?

The reason i ask is that i may know of someone that has one for cheap/free.

Sorry to revive an old topic.

You can slow-cool in your kettle. If you can take the break material out from the bottom I can't see any issues.

Other people might see issues - your job is to consider other's issues and then quickly dismiss them. Try it and report back. If it works fine, accept that other people will not believe you.