Benefits Of A 3v Brew Rig?

[RdeVjun]

I get a lot of beer (wonderful to awful and everything in between) being brought in for comment, I think I am getting to be able to tell BIAB and poorly recirculated beer by taste, there is a certain thick dextrins to an almost a glueyness to the worst of them, these are beers that almost invariably show a lot more chill haze and prove to be the least stable, and generally dont attenuate as well as they could.
Most strongly noticeable in beers made on systems that are too small for the volume being made (see L:G) brewing High Gravity and diluting is not the best option.

Mark, are you involved in competition judging and if not, why so? It would be disappointing to to see those particular talents under- utilised, or indeed if other judges might be missing faults.
I think its great that your palate has developed to such a degree, it gives me hope that my own might really graduate beyond primary school one day!

Not sure if you're aware but last year at BABB Annual one club member entered six MaxiBIABs and every one of them earned a medal (four bronze, two silver IIRC), plus one first and two third placings. (MaxiBIAB is the volume- limited, high gravity, dilution BIAB method, I presume that's what you're talking about.) Repeated medal and placing results over a number of years lead me to believe it is simply an adequate* technique, while the continued positive assessments by our peers and across various competitions largely eliminate the possibility that it was a chance occurrence, likewise if the method had fundamental flaws or the judging was defective.
* Note, I deliberately chose not to use the term 'best', just 'adequate'; without much context surrounding then even more so.

 

[glenwal]

Unfortunately his retail agenda is influencing his posts - and that's a sad thing for the AHB.

But isn't the why there is the retailer flag that adds the red "Retailer" text under there name.



disclamer: I'm not saying that i agree or disagree with any comments made about any particular retailer, i am purely commenting as a general statement about retailers posting in general.

 

[Malted]

i am purely commenting as a general statement about retailers posting in general.

Yeah why would a retailer retail something? Doesn't make sense does it. Maybe some folks are professional brewers but don't get paid for it? It gets worse, imagine amateurs being amateurish and letting that influence their posts - that's a sad thing for the AHB.








h34r: :lol:

 

[Bribie G]

I was actually going to post re competition wins for BIAB brews but RdeV beat me to it. As more and more BIAB brews get entered into comps then the results will, ultimately, speak for themselves.

Watch out in the NSW State Comp next year B) B) B) B)

 

[adraine]

imagine amateurs being amateurish and letting that influence their posts - that's a sad thing for the AHB.

Hence the reason im staying out of this little debate

 

[mattric]

As someone that has done one BIAB and not seen a 3v brew rig outside of the internet, I am mighty confused with this thread.

There appears to be no clear cut X is better than Y but it's down to personal preference.

Is there a place where one could go and help in a brew day to see what actually takes place in a 3V brew rig?

 

[Bribie G]

It would be helpful if you could put your location in your sidebar

 

[Malted]

There appears to be no clear cut X is better than Y but it's down to personal preference.

You appear to have interpreted it correctly.

 

[black_labb]

actually it is clear that 3v is far superior. The difference is 3v you have more stuff on your brewing stand to take cover behind when the poo flinging starts.

Though if you stay out of the shitfight then yes it does come down to personal preference.

 

[mattric]

That it would eb handy to have my location... Sorry about that.

 

[MHB]

I really have bent over backwards to highlight what I see as the strengths and weakness in effectively three systems, I started on a 3V, have done BIAB and I now brew on a Braumeister.
All of them have their advantages and disadvantages, without being one eyed about it and trying to be fair when doing the comparison between BIAB and 3V I believe that 3V is the clear winner.
I have already stated that you can and that people do make great beer on all three, I think its harder to brew really good beer BIAB, and have already said that BIAB is a really good way to start.

What do you want me to do - Lie and give something other than my honest opinion

While I have been writing this 4 people have been in and out of the shop - the brew in the Braumeister is ticking along totally unattended in 10-15 minutes it will beep at me and I will go and turn it off one of the things I like about the BM is that it is the only way I can fit brewing into my week. Imagine owning a home brew shop and being too dam busy to brew, with the Braumeister I can brew what is not to like about that!

My critique of small volume concentrated worts is based on nothing other than observation, and researching what I observe, it has nothing whatsoever to do with personalities; nor what I sell. If I came out and said BIAB was the clear winner would I be getting the same **** from the 3V guys?
Seriously I doubt it.
Someone (other than me) needs to sit down and have a long hard look at the effect of L:G ratios has on wort, particularly the dextrin to fermentable ratios of the finisher wort, it goes a long way to explaining why Nick has often said that 10% sugar improves the beer. The other point being I still sell Malt and Hops, thats my core business and yes we sell a lot more Bags than Braumeisters my advice to people starting out is consistent with what I posted here, Full volume makes it easier to make better beer.

FYI, I had the (mixed) pleasure of judging a small flight at the NSW state comp this year only 6 beers but Baltic Porter is always fun, I say mixed there were 3 Forty Point plus beers (unalloyed pleasure) in the flight and a couple that needed serious help, even managed to stay within a couple of points of my co judge.
Mark

 

[Nick JD]

Someone (other than me) needs to sit down and have a long hard look at the effect of L:G ratios has on wort, particularly the dextrin to fermentable ratios of the finisher wort, it goes a long way to explaining why Nick has often said that 10% sugar improves the beer.

I use the same L:G ratios as 3V brewers.

 

[bigfridge]

Well I will argue about this point till the cows come home. A shortcoming, I think not. Indeed BIAB will produce a more turbid wort than recirculation through a grain bed & the downside of that is trub loss. This is not a drama though & can be managed & reduced to a minimum on a well set up BIAB brew rig. I use loose hop pellets & a hop bag for my hops & on a typical batch size of 23lt, I lose 2.5lt to trub. I think this figure is in the ball park against any Braumeister users out there & better than most 3V users so I can't see a turbid wort as a problem. Did I mention 86% efficiency into the fermenter? I constantly read threads where people for some reason need to achieve a crystal clear wort into the boil kettle & myself included, spend / spent **** loads of money trying to do just that & it just so happens that it doesn't matter, not one bit. I have no temp control, recirculation or anything else on my 40lt urn but can produce an identical brew to the one previous, tomorrow, next week, next month or next year. Repeatability, crystal clear wort to the boil kettle, full on PID temp control are all required to make better beer is a total misconception, it's hogwash!

Simple answer to a tyranical rant - lipids.

Read any professional brewing text ( I mean textbooks subject to peer review and and not just a book for homebrewers, written by homebrewers or commercial interests) and you will learn that delivering clear wort into the kettle is the single most important step in ensuring clean flavours in your beer. The only exception to this is lambics where a trubid wort gives the nutrients required by wild yeast and bacteria.

I would be willing to argue discuss this point with you but in order to make it fair you will need to show that you have at least 20 years brewing experience and spent at least $1,000 on brewing textbooks and education. I have 30 years and spent around $5,000 but I am willing to go easy on you.

<_<

 

[Nick JD]

Simple answer to a tyranical rant - lipids.

Your education cost you five grand? Top work.

Your honorary doctorate is in the mail...

BTW - can we have some references to fats and their impact on beer? Most brewers leave the hot break behind.

 

[bigfridge]

Your education cost you five grand? Top work.

There you go again - misquoting for effect ! :angry:

I have NOT spent five grand on education - unless you count the cost of buying commercial beers for beer judging.

BTW - can we have some references to fats and their impact on beer? Most brewers leave the hot break behind.

Nope - that would be off topic !

My contribution to this thread was concerning lipids - which are different to fats and even fatty acids. When you are confident that you can understand the difference, you may, just may get some benefit from this article

"It is generally accepted that lauter turbidity is of outstanding importance in terms of beer quality. Particularly, the importance of a clear lauter wort has often
been emphasized. Nielsen summarizes the undesired components of turbid worts as follows: lipids which are believed to contribute to beer staling and foam
deterioration; anthocyanogens derived from malt which cause a decrease in the non-biological stability of the finished beer, with the content of thocyanogens in wort depending on the contact time of wort with grist; flavour compounds which directly affect the flavour quality; and starch since it affects both the biological and nonbiological stability adversely."

Need I say more ?

 

[glenwal]

I have 30 years and spent around $5,000

I have NOT spent five grand on education

:unsure: <_< :huh:

 

[Nick JD]

Need I say more ?

Yes, I think you should. Your quote is nonsense.

Try this - from the paper you referenced.

Although the majority of the lipids are removed during
boiling, higher levels in sweet wort (kettle-up) also caused
higher concentrations in cast wort. However, the levels did
not differ that much afterwards.47 Similarly, Eils reported
that fatty acid contents in worts after whirlpool were comparable,
due to an efficient hot trub separation, even if the
lauter worts contained variable concentrations.32 According
to Graf 35, an efficient removal of hot trub and cold
trub seems to decrease the difference between turbid and
clear lautering in long-chain fatty acid concentration without
eliminating it completely. Further effects of cold trub
removal on beer quality are highlighted in more detail by
Dickel et al.23,24 For turbid kettle-up worts, separation
problems in terms of precipitation and sedimentation of
hot trub occurred during whirlpool operation.80,90,91,111 The
more turbid the kettle-up wort, the higher the trub content
of wort and the worse the separation in whirlpool, leading
to higher extract losses.

If you'd like me to explain that, just ask. Until then ... Cloudy wort is fixed with kettle finings.

You need to get $4999 back.

 

[real_beer]

Hey brewers,
I am fairly new with brewing have only knocked over 8 BIAB's so far, just about to drink my first 2 beers this weekend. I am really enjoying the brewing process with biab but I would like to think that it would be far cooler on a 3v system.
That said I am interested in knowing what benefits brewing on a 3 vessel gas system are?
Cheers Ben

You might find the info you want to here:
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...c=42248&hl=

Lots of imagination, enthusiasm, & encouragement between brewers who've built all kinds of cool rigs.

Cheers

 

[manticle]

My contribution to this thread was concerning lipids - which are different to fats and even fatty acids. When you are confident that you can understand the difference, you may, just may get some benefit from this article

Are you sure? I was under the impression that fats and fatty acids are categorised as lipids (as are other compounds).

http://www2.chemistry.msu.edu/faculty/reus...tJml/lipids.htm

"It is generally accepted that lauter turbidity is of outstanding importance in terms of beer quality. Particularly, the importance of a clear lauter wort has often
been emphasized. Nielsen summarizes the undesired components of turbid worts as follows: lipids which are believed to contribute to beer staling and foam
deterioration; anthocyanogens derived from malt which cause a decrease in the non-biological stability of the finished beer, with the content of thocyanogens in wort depending on the contact time of wort with grist; flavour compounds which directly affect the flavour quality; and starch since it affects both the biological and nonbiological stability adversely."

Need I say more ?

Probably. I've read that article before and found some of the varied results from different researchers quite interesting. I would quote all the relevant text but there's a lot of it and if I were to be selective, it would appear as if I were trying to use the article to say the opposite.

However, in the section on flavour quality, there are a number of researchers suggesting that turbid wort and the impact of lipids on flavour quality has been over-estimated. There's others who have found differently but it isn't cut and dried.

Even the flavour stability section, which suggests that much research is in favour of clear wort ends with the following

On this point Schur and Pfenninger[90] partly disagree as they found that beers produced from extended lautering and very clear worts performed
the worst in taste testings of fresh and aged beers.

The section on non-biological stability suggests

There are only few papers dealing with the effect of
turbid lautering on the non-biological stability of the resulting beer. Turbid lautering is assumed to cause a lower
non-biological stability [80,90] and the reason for this might be that turbid worts sweep along more anthocyanogens resulting in a higher affinity for the formation of haze in bottled beer.

which is far from conclusive (my italics).

The section on foam stability is also inconclusive (some say poor, some say improved)

According to Schur and Pfenninger [90] and Anness and Reed [6] , turbid lautering or lipids cause a slightly lower foam stability in the resulting
beers. In contrast to this, Eils [32] reported that turbid lautering and/or higher contents of oxygen during lautering or lower intensity of wort boiling caused an increase of coagulable nitrogen in wort and of foam stability of beer. According to Schuster [91] , when lipids extracted from spent grains were added to a fermentation the resulting beer foam was not negatively affected but rather was stabilized. Even after the third fermentation cycle no deterioration
was detectable compared to the control. Thus, Schuster [91]concludes that lipids derived from turbid lautering do not
have a negative influence on foam stability

The article's conclusion again is inconclusive but suggests some turbidity may aid aspects of beer and that super bright worts may encounter some fermentation problems. It is worth re-reading in that light, particularly when it ends with this:

With these two aspects in mind, the question arises whether the threat of a quality loss, possibly originating from lauter turbidity, is
nowadays overestimated. Since a proper fermentation is a premise for a high beer quality, it has to be questioned whether the today’s lauter turbidity may be too low to provide a proper yeast nutrition. Therefore, it seems to be worthwhile to discuss a new statement of preferring a
moderate lauter turbidity, within the range of lauter turbidities currently observed, instead of the minimum turbidity that is technically realizable today in order to provide proper yeast nutrition and to minimise adverse quality effects at the same time

.

I read this article some time ago when I was looking for research into the effect of cold break on finished beer (I ferment on top of mine and am therefore interested to know what lab based effects if any, have been observed/documented). I found it to have a very interesting perspective on the whole 'wort must be bright' idea that warrants further discussion.

 

[dougsbrew]

I have 30 years and spent around $5,000

I have NOT spent five grand on education

:unsure: <_< :huh:

which part are you struggling to understand. where did it say he spent $5000 on education?
what is the purpose of your post? dont u like it when someone has something intellectual to say?