Batz
Batz Brewery...Hand crafted beers from the 'Batcav
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Benefits Of A 3v Brew Rig?
- Thread starter BPH87
- Start date
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You appear so strong of forearm, when the skyhook assistant is omitted from the photo :lol:
Cocko
Oh Dear..
So one advantage of 3v kicks into play when you get over the single batch size then yeah?
I would say, if it was a 20kg / quad batch bill, the hassle of managing it with a bag [impossible] or bags [IRC QLDKev did] would be a pain in the butt. Lifting our 4 bags, draining 4 bags, sparging 4 bags etc...
One advantage of 3v is the actions are the same for any size rig.
2c.
Yob
Hop to it
just cant help yourself can ya :lol:
Cocko
Oh Dear..
Yob
Hop to it
No.. its ok man.. I understand.. it's like cocko turetts syndrome.. it's OK to be sick.. 
Batz
Batz Brewery...Hand crafted beers from the 'Batcav
- Joined
- 8/8/03
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ok we should both leave it there mate.
Get your arse up here for a beer before you leave Qld but.
Cocko
Oh Dear..
No.. its ok man.. I understand.. it's like cocko turetts syndrome.. it's OK to be sick..
HAHA!
I am sick
Sh&T B&TCH F%CK!But seriously, I stand by my point, I am not just **** stirring - the topic of the thread is Benefits of 3v Brew Rig
I pointed one out.
Now I will use the word **** to offend any one reading this who thinks that word lowers my intelligence.
Ok, now I am going to bed
Cocko
Oh Dear..
WOW! That must be about 9-10kg, thats the same as a slab of stubbies!!
He must stand like 15ft tall and have arms like trees! :blink:
WTF! <_<
Trying to drag this thread back on topic (kicking and screaming)
This is my personal opinion; the advantages of BIAB are fundamentally all about cost.
There are some space, time, convenience... advantages that cant be ignored but the big advantage is cost.
Lower up front get into AG which is I think fantastic, the more brewers making the change the better.
In terms of brewing I think 3V is the winner on all fronts
More control of Liquor to Grist, L:G makes some big changes to how the same grain bill ends up.
More efficient sparging, (real sparging not batch)
Much better wort clarification during recirculation giving lower protein and particulate matter in the kettle
Lower kettle losses to trub
More and cleaner wort to the fermenter
I know a lot of BIAB brewers will be turning red and saying that their beer is wonderful.
True some BIAB brewers are making pretty amazing beer, each of the points above dont make the beer bad, added together it just means you can make better beer on a 3V system, not that you will nor that you cant make good beer BIAB
I get a lot of beer (wonderful to awful and everything in between) being brought in for comment, I think I am getting to be able to tell BIAB and poorly recirculated beer by taste, there is a certain thick dextrins to an almost a glueyness to the worst of them, these are beers that almost invariably show a lot more chill haze and prove to be the least stable, and generally dont attenuate as well as they could.
Most strongly noticeable in beers made on systems that are too small for the volume being made (see L:G) brewing High Gravity and diluting is not the best option.
I strongly support BIAB as a starting point, proviso being that your pot is at least 1/2 bigger than your brew volume, preferably double
As a starting point the classic all in full volume version of BIAB is I believe the best learning arrangement, and under no circumstances squeeze the bag I know its nearly impossible to resist the temptation, but try, that white stuff that comes out is mostly very big protein gels and you really dont want them in your kettle.
Ok if the dedicated (sic fanatical) BIABers want to hold a burning in effigy I was cleaning out the wardrobe this weekend send a 5Kg post bag and I will return some old T-shirts and jeans... just for authenticity.
Mark
This is my personal opinion; the advantages of BIAB are fundamentally all about cost.
There are some space, time, convenience... advantages that cant be ignored but the big advantage is cost.
Lower up front get into AG which is I think fantastic, the more brewers making the change the better.
In terms of brewing I think 3V is the winner on all fronts
More control of Liquor to Grist, L:G makes some big changes to how the same grain bill ends up.
More efficient sparging, (real sparging not batch)
Much better wort clarification during recirculation giving lower protein and particulate matter in the kettle
Lower kettle losses to trub
More and cleaner wort to the fermenter
I know a lot of BIAB brewers will be turning red and saying that their beer is wonderful.
True some BIAB brewers are making pretty amazing beer, each of the points above dont make the beer bad, added together it just means you can make better beer on a 3V system, not that you will nor that you cant make good beer BIAB
I get a lot of beer (wonderful to awful and everything in between) being brought in for comment, I think I am getting to be able to tell BIAB and poorly recirculated beer by taste, there is a certain thick dextrins to an almost a glueyness to the worst of them, these are beers that almost invariably show a lot more chill haze and prove to be the least stable, and generally dont attenuate as well as they could.
Most strongly noticeable in beers made on systems that are too small for the volume being made (see L:G) brewing High Gravity and diluting is not the best option.
I strongly support BIAB as a starting point, proviso being that your pot is at least 1/2 bigger than your brew volume, preferably double
As a starting point the classic all in full volume version of BIAB is I believe the best learning arrangement, and under no circumstances squeeze the bag I know its nearly impossible to resist the temptation, but try, that white stuff that comes out is mostly very big protein gels and you really dont want them in your kettle.
Ok if the dedicated (sic fanatical) BIABers want to hold a burning in effigy I was cleaning out the wardrobe this weekend send a 5Kg post bag and I will return some old T-shirts and jeans... just for authenticity.
Mark
jyo
No Chillin' Like a Villain.
warra48
I've drunk all my homebrew and I'm still worried.
I like my 3V gravity assisted system, and I'm sticking with it.
Don't care about the pros and cons. I made the decision 5 years ago to set up a 3V system, and I'm not investing any further funds to change anything.
Plus, I'm happy with the beers I brew.
At the end of the day, that's all that matters to me.
No, maybe he hasn't, but he's seen mine, and she's definitely worth a look.
Don't care about the pros and cons. I made the decision 5 years ago to set up a 3V system, and I'm not investing any further funds to change anything.
Plus, I'm happy with the beers I brew.
At the end of the day, that's all that matters to me.
No, maybe he hasn't, but he's seen mine, and she's definitely worth a look.
On page 2 of this thread you said that BIAB was essentially derived as a cheap copy of a BM system, and that you considered the BM the pinnacle of home brewing setups, yet today it the prize goes to 3V?.
Wouldn't a BIAB setup (with PID and pump, or maybe one of the DIY-BM systems) be a better approximation of a BM than a 3V system?
Doesn't a BM system suffer all the disadvantages that you listed as to why 3V has advantages over BIAB (L:G, sparge, losses, etc), while the BM also misses out on the cost advantage?
If not where and why does the BM fit in, and what about 3.5V brewing (RIMS/HERMS)?
(I'm not taking the piss or being argumentative, it's just I've not ever used BIAB or BM so I'm genuinely curious as to how and why you'd fit those systems in).
I said no such thing - go back and read my post again - I take exception to being misquoted to support anyone's opinion!
"On page 2 of this thread you said that BIAB was essentially derived as a cheap copy of a BM system, and that you considered the BM the pinnacle of home brewing setups, yet today it the prize goes to 3V?."
I said "it was the arrival of the Braumeister on the scene here in Australia that kicked off the whole BIAB thing."
That is a long way from "BIAB was essentially derived as a cheap copy of a BM system" The only commonality is that both are/were single vessel, essentially full volume systems and that the expended malt is lifted out of the wort.
In my post on page 2, I was very careful not to say that the BM was anything other than what I brew on, that I like it is true, but that a 3V + an extra pot would be my ideal system if all constraints were lifted.
Again that is not saying "that you considered the BM the pinnacle of home brewing setups"
I believe I generally respect your posts and pay a lot of attention to your work on yeast; I ask that you do me the courtesy of going back and re-reading my post objectively
In the post above I was trying to stay on topic and answering the question in the OP by directly comparing BIAB and 3V, without adding other systems into the mix
Wouldn't a BIAB setup (with PID and pump, or maybe one of the DIY-BM systems) be a better approximation of a BM than a 3V system?
Doesn't a BM system suffer all the disadvantages that you listed as to why 3V has advantages over BIAB (L:G, sparge, losses, etc), while the BM also misses out on the cost advantage?
If not where and why does the BM fit in, and what about 3.5V brewing (RIMS/HERMS)?
To touch on your other questions, what a Braumeister shares with a 3V system is a permeable bed, the long recirculation of the wort (better compared to a HERMS/RIMS system than conventional 3V) through the full depth of the bed carries fines and very high molecular weight protein gels as they condense until they are trapped in the natural filter bed that forms during recirculation, this eliminates them from being eluted into the kettle.
BIAB being a very fine grist and not building a filter through recirculation lacks this ability and the result is more turbid wort this is one of the widely acknowledged shortcomings of BIAB.
BIAB started as a very simple full volume system, in an attempt to fix some of the shortcomings there are a plethora of spin-off modifications going on, frankly from my observation, when you start adding pumps, recirculating, mix in a PID what have you, you are trying to make a Braumeister because you are too sodding tight to buy one.
The idea that a Braumeister is too expensive is a very subjective one, in any other hobby you could name $3500 isn't exactly big bickeys, I mean you wouldn't want to think of any hobby that included motor sport, sailing (well anything that floats displaces its own volume in $20 notes), flying Christ even a remote control plane can cost more than $3500 and people stack them every day, Golf appears to be a bottomless money pit...
If you have the right skill set and happen to be very handy you can build something like a Braumeister for about half of the cost, but even if you spent $4000 got a 50L BM, Fridge with controller and all the extras brewing is the only hobby where you stand a chance of recouping the total investment in savings and get to drink world class beer.
Do you have any idea how sick of hearing people whinge about the price of Braumeisters I get?
Braumeisters have their limitations (as do all systems) they also have most of the advantages of a 3V, with mash recirculation, stepped temperature control, in a small footprint professionally designed and built in Germany to the standard you expect from German engineering,
Fark now you have dragged me OT I do love my Braumeister and for very good reasons but it's far from the only option.
Mark
"On page 2 of this thread you said that BIAB was essentially derived as a cheap copy of a BM system, and that you considered the BM the pinnacle of home brewing setups, yet today it the prize goes to 3V?."
I said "it was the arrival of the Braumeister on the scene here in Australia that kicked off the whole BIAB thing."
That is a long way from "BIAB was essentially derived as a cheap copy of a BM system" The only commonality is that both are/were single vessel, essentially full volume systems and that the expended malt is lifted out of the wort.
In my post on page 2, I was very careful not to say that the BM was anything other than what I brew on, that I like it is true, but that a 3V + an extra pot would be my ideal system if all constraints were lifted.
Again that is not saying "that you considered the BM the pinnacle of home brewing setups"
I believe I generally respect your posts and pay a lot of attention to your work on yeast; I ask that you do me the courtesy of going back and re-reading my post objectively
In the post above I was trying to stay on topic and answering the question in the OP by directly comparing BIAB and 3V, without adding other systems into the mix
Wouldn't a BIAB setup (with PID and pump, or maybe one of the DIY-BM systems) be a better approximation of a BM than a 3V system?
Doesn't a BM system suffer all the disadvantages that you listed as to why 3V has advantages over BIAB (L:G, sparge, losses, etc), while the BM also misses out on the cost advantage?
If not where and why does the BM fit in, and what about 3.5V brewing (RIMS/HERMS)?
To touch on your other questions, what a Braumeister shares with a 3V system is a permeable bed, the long recirculation of the wort (better compared to a HERMS/RIMS system than conventional 3V) through the full depth of the bed carries fines and very high molecular weight protein gels as they condense until they are trapped in the natural filter bed that forms during recirculation, this eliminates them from being eluted into the kettle.
BIAB being a very fine grist and not building a filter through recirculation lacks this ability and the result is more turbid wort this is one of the widely acknowledged shortcomings of BIAB.
BIAB started as a very simple full volume system, in an attempt to fix some of the shortcomings there are a plethora of spin-off modifications going on, frankly from my observation, when you start adding pumps, recirculating, mix in a PID what have you, you are trying to make a Braumeister because you are too sodding tight to buy one.
The idea that a Braumeister is too expensive is a very subjective one, in any other hobby you could name $3500 isn't exactly big bickeys, I mean you wouldn't want to think of any hobby that included motor sport, sailing (well anything that floats displaces its own volume in $20 notes), flying Christ even a remote control plane can cost more than $3500 and people stack them every day, Golf appears to be a bottomless money pit...
If you have the right skill set and happen to be very handy you can build something like a Braumeister for about half of the cost, but even if you spent $4000 got a 50L BM, Fridge with controller and all the extras brewing is the only hobby where you stand a chance of recouping the total investment in savings and get to drink world class beer.
Do you have any idea how sick of hearing people whinge about the price of Braumeisters I get?
Braumeisters have their limitations (as do all systems) they also have most of the advantages of a 3V, with mash recirculation, stepped temperature control, in a small footprint professionally designed and built in Germany to the standard you expect from German engineering,
Fark now you have dragged me OT I do love my Braumeister and for very good reasons but it's far from the only option.
Mark
Lakey
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Crusty
Well-Known Member
Well I will argue about this point till the cows come home. A shortcoming, I think not. Indeed BIAB will produce a more turbid wort than recirculation through a grain bed & the downside of that is trub loss. This is not a drama though & can be managed & reduced to a minimum on a well set up BIAB brew rig. I use loose hop pellets & a hop bag for my hops & on a typical batch size of 23lt, I lose 2.5lt to trub. I think this figure is in the ball park against any Braumeister users out there & better than most 3V users so I can't see a turbid wort as a problem. Did I mention 86% efficiency into the fermenter? I constantly read threads where people for some reason need to achieve a crystal clear wort into the boil kettle & myself included, spend / spent **** loads of money trying to do just that & it just so happens that it doesn't matter, not one bit. I have no temp control, recirculation or anything else on my 40lt urn but can produce an identical brew to the one previous, tomorrow, next week, next month or next year. Repeatability, crystal clear wort to the boil kettle, full on PID temp control are all required to make better beer is a total misconception, it's hogwash!
