Belgian Tripel - Recipe Critique

[manticle]

The last time I tried to make a tripel I made a woeful brew that was basically hot alcohol and bananas. I'm pretty sure I know where I went wrong (some theories have been tested in a recent dubbel which seems to have worked).

Next weekend I'd like to crack out a tripel with westmalle as a rough inspiration. I've come up with this recipe. Any experienced tripel brewers who can see anything wrong with it? Cheers.

Style: Belgian Tripel

Type: All grain

Size: 22 liters

Color: 7 HCU (~5 SRM)

Bitterness: 37 IBU

OG: 1.081

FG: 1.012

Alcohol: 8.9% v/v (7.0% w/w)

Grain: 6.5kg JW Pilsner
100g JW crystal 50-60L

Mash: 90 minutes, 67 deg 70% efficiency

Boil: 60 minutes , SG 1.059, 30 liters

Hops: 25g Styrian Goldings (5.5% AA, 60 min.)
20g Tettnanger (4.5% AA, 60 min.)
20g Styrian Goldings (5.5% AA, 20 min.)
20g Tettnanger (4.5% AA, 20 min.)
10g Styrian Goldings (5.5% AA, 10 min.)
10g Tettnanger (4.5% AA, 10 min.)
10g Styrian Goldings (aroma)
10g Tettnanger (aroma)

1kg homemade clear Belgian candi sugar 250g in boil, rest added incrementally after primary ferment.

4 L x WY 1214

 

[Barry]

Just an idea, needs to be light bodied. Mash in lower. 63 to 65oC. Other ideas?

 

[bhummel]

As a lover of Belgium brews, 37 IBU's seems too high for me.

The last time I tried to make a tripel I made a woeful brew that was basically hot alcohol and bananas. I'm pretty sure I know where I went wrong (some theories have been tested in a recent dubbel which seems to have worked).

Next weekend I'd like to crack out a tripel with westmalle as a rough inspiration. I've come up with this recipe. Any experienced tripel brewers who can see anything wrong with it? Cheers.

Style: Belgian Tripel

Type: All grain

Size: 22 liters

Color: 7 HCU (~5 SRM)

Bitterness: 37 IBU

OG: 1.081

FG: 1.012

Alcohol: 8.9% v/v (7.0% w/w)

Grain: 6.5kg JW Pilsner
100g JW crystal 50-60L

Mash: 90 minutes, 67 deg 70% efficiency

Boil: 60 minutes , SG 1.059, 30 liters

Hops: 25g Styrian Goldings (5.5% AA, 60 min.)
20g Tettnanger (4.5% AA, 60 min.)
20g Styrian Goldings (5.5% AA, 20 min.)
20g Tettnanger (4.5% AA, 20 min.)
10g Styrian Goldings (5.5% AA, 10 min.)
10g Tettnanger (4.5% AA, 10 min.)
10g Styrian Goldings (aroma)
10g Tettnanger (aroma)

1kg homemade clear Belgian candi sugar 250g in boil, rest added incrementally after primary ferment.

4 L x WY 1214

 

[neonmeate]

as much as I love lots of hops, I reckon you've got too much in there. With the yeast phenolics and lighter body you're going for, you just need a light touch of hop spice.

and if you use the westmalle yeast (3787) you'll get no banana, unlike 1214. have a look at the chart in BLAM that gives the results of the various yeasts at different temp ranges and it'll tell you how to get what you're after esterwise.

otherwise looks fine

 

[manticle]

@Byron Hummel: Much of the reading I've been doing suggests a lot of tripels are reasonably highly hopped while dubbels are usually much lower. I'm conviced that a lot of the spice I've previously associated with yeast esters in tripels is actually a result of hopping. It's hard to know but at least two references suggest 35 and 39 respectively.

39 suggested lower down this page: http://beervana.blogspot.com/2008/08/trapp...ur-lady-of.html with a believable justification that it is actually quite low for a brew with such high gravity.

35 suggested in a BYO clone here: http://www.byo.com/stories/recipes/recipei...estmalle-tripel. I've brewed a couple mid - high 20s that seemed very lacking (many faults and not simply due to low hopping but that was one of them).

@Barry - I had a belief for a while that Belgians in general should be mashed low but doing so gave me a very dry result. A bit of reading suggests mashing high and mashing long (hence the 90 minutes) which is something I'm playing with at the moment (mainly with english styles but also in a recent dubbel). I believe Westmalle mash above 70 degrees but for 90 minutes.
http://www.trappistwestmalle.be/en/page/beslagmaken.aspx

@neonmate: My copy of BLAM is on loan to another brewer at the moment. Westmalle suggest they make three hop additions to the kettle. To me it makes sense that one would be bittering, one flavour and one aroma. I do have some 3787 culture which I believe is the westmalle strain but I find the yeast very, very assertive and thought I might try and push some more delicacy from this (3787 is a favourite though). The banana and hot alc I got from my last play with 1214 probably came from adding too much sugar at once and trying to push esters by raising ferment temps. At the moment I'm of the belief that slower and lower is better so I'll be aiming for 18 degrees all the way through.

I'm assuming you're suggesting there's too much late hopping. Would you recommend backing off a touch on the aroma additions and maybe flavour additions and compensating the IBU by adding in a bit more for bittering?

I've always been someone who's been reticent with loads of late hops as I love malty beers. Recent tastings and testings have led me towards being a bit bolder (still wanting to maintain that maltiness with every brew though).

All the above sounds like I'm arguing rather than accepting advice which I did ask for. That's not the case - I'm just discussing my thoughts on the matter and explaining why I've come up with the recipe and ideas that I have. I appreciate all the feedback and nothing is yet set in stone.

Cheers.

 

[hoohaaman]

firstly,I'd never lend BLAM....secondly Manticle,I will always help with any beer B)

 

[manticle]

Your advice will be much appreciated.

 

[Stuster]

I agree with neonmeate. Maybe just keep the Styrians at 20 and 0. That should be enough IMO. That should also cut back the IBUs a touch.

I'd also can the crystal. No need for more body or those kinds of flavours. Again, only IMO and it really depends on what you are aiming for.

I'm not a big fan of Chimay because of the banana esters I pick up there. I do think another yeast might be better if you don't want those banana notes.

Have you made the candi sugar yet?

 

[manticle]

I've made candi sugar before - both dark and light. This is scheduled for next weekend so I haven't made this batch yet. The crystal was based on a few clone recipes I'd read - my initial assumption would have been pils and candi only.

In terms of what I'm aiming for - basically the principle characteristics of how I perceive a tripel. Not looking for an exact clone or to enter a comp with this. Just want high alc brew that doesn't taste high alc (a challenge in itself) but still has a touch of warmth, that beautiful balance between bitter, malt and dry that comes with good brews and delicate spice from esters and hops. If I can fill these three categories and get a decent tasting beer with good head formation/retention, I'll be pretty happy.

What kind of IBU range would you suggest?

 

[Stuster]

Well, I think more like 30 is a good balance. Never tried 37 though so it certainly might work.

With the candi sugar, I'm just not sure of the point of it with the clear one. The dark one should definitely add flavour, but with this you aren't really looking for that. Personally, I'm in favour of just using plain white sugar.

In terms of yeast, are you making a big starter? Doing a lower gravity beer to grow the yeast?

 

[manticle]

As suggested in the recipe I'm looking at growing a fresh pack of 1214 to a 4 litre starter. I'll admit I just made that up based on my previous starter levels for certain gravity beers (3 L is my usual for anything around 1060) and haven't calculated it properly.

I agree about the candi in principle- I guess there's just something that feels nice about the hands on process and I'd probably take it to a slight yellowish tinge which will have some subtle flavour impact.

Can someone with BLAM handy tell me what the suggested IBU for Westmalle Tripel is?

 

[brettprevans]

Extra - 31
dub- 24
trip- 39
I've just dragged my arse put of bed to find BLM for u. It was next to my bed for a while got moved back to the office

happy brewing and good luck
edit. Recipes all look like pils pale plus sugar and Candi sugar. Kinda sound like maybe 3 addition but probably just 2

 

[manticle]

Thought it was high 30s. Cheers CM2 and goodnight.

 

[Stuster]

Interesting. Must try that level of bitterness next time I do a tripel. Fairy snuff about the candi sugar. Looks like you're good to go. Like to hear how it goes.

 

[braufrau]

I just had an inspired idea about candi sugar yesterday.
Make it like this.
1 part fruisana (fructose)
1 part glucose
2 parts sucrose
4 parts water

heat to 110-116C. Maintain that T until desired colour is reached by adding water.

Why I hear you ask?

Two reasons. That's 50% inverted, just like the real stuff, which you'll never achieve with citric acid.
And .. I don't like the taste of citric acid in the sugar.

Otherwise I agree with everyone else. 3787. 30 IBU. Less aroma hops. Less sugar.

 

[manticle]

Cheers for the response everyone.

@braufrau - Would you suggest a bigger mash to compensate for dropping the sugar?

When I make candi sugar, I use either lemon juice (fresh) or white vinegar as my acid.

At this point I'm likely to back off a little on the late and flavour hops but I'll be trying to keep the IBU where it is. Like all beers, I'll be tweaking the recipe again and again each time I brew it so all comments taken into account. The last couple of times I've tried a tripel I've had the IBU around 30 and I think it's too low. Westmalle is definitely hoppier than that. I'll try it with the 1214 first and 3787 next time. I've brewed tripels with both before but neither brew turned out satisfactory (variety of reasons)

 

[manticle]

So after some deliberation I've tweaked slightly to lower the sugar level by upping the malt and sticking to bittering, flavour and aroma additions. Hop amounts have actually been increased due to the Styrians that arrived today being only 2.3%aa and the hersbrucker I have (forgot to order tett) being only 3.5%aa.

Still aiming for a hoppy bitter tripel to see what difference it makes.

Brewing tomorrow:

Style: Belgian Tripel
Type: All grain
Size: 22 liters
Color: 7 HCU (~6 SRM)
Bitterness: 37 IBU
OG: 1.073
FG: 1.012
Alcohol:9.0% v/v (7.1% w/w) (after addition of sugar)
Grain: 7kg JW Pilsner
250g Dingemans biscuit
Mash: 70% efficiency, 67 degrees, 90 minutes
Boil:60 minutes, SG 1.051, 30 liters, 200g slightly yellow homemade candi sugar at end of boil
Hops: 40g Hallertauer Hersbrucker (3.5% AA, 60 min.)
50g Styrian Goldings (2.3% AA, 60 min.)
20g Hallertauer Hersbrucker (3.5% AA, 20 min.)
20g Styrian Goldings (2.3% AA, 20 min.)
10g Hallertauer Hersbrucker (aroma)
10g Styrian Goldings (aroma)

Notes: 500g homemade clear Belgian candi added incrementally after primary ferment.

Mash: 2g CaSo4
2g CaCO3
1g CaCl

Boil: 2g CaSo4
2g CaCO3
1g CaCl

4 L x WY 1214

 

[chappo1970]

What need to do do is throw in a Belgian into the fermenter for that authenic flavour

Seriously I would drop the 20min additions as I reckon you don't need them but more importantly they will detract from the malt profile somewhat IMHO. Belgian Triples have very little in the way of specialty malts so you very little to hide behind so really good temp control should be a priority. Start ferment at 18C and slowy let it build up over the course of the ferment so not to throw excessive spicy phenols and overly fruity esters but you also want a nice dry, almost lager-ish finish to the beer. Also maybe up the base malt a little so it has a slightly higher OG say around the 1080. Also maybe aromatic rather than the biscuit and some sassy Czech Saaz over the Styrians but that's more a personal choice.

Looks a good recipe regardless Manticle have fun with it mate :icon_cheers:

 

[braufrau]

Cheers for the response everyone.

@braufrau - Would you suggest a bigger mash to compensate for dropping the sugar?

yep. The recipe I've made a few times ( got best in class at the gawler show .. ha ha!)
uses 7.13kg of malt. 7kg of pilsner and 0.13 of aromatic, so pretty similar to what you above.

 

[manticle]

Also maybe up the base malt a little so it has a slightly higher OG say around the 1080.

Cheers for the suggestions.

The stated OG is obviously without the addition of most of the candi sugar as I'm adding that in post primary ferment. Together with the sugar that grist should give me 8-9% depending on final attenuation so i don't want too much more than that.

Never used styrians before (have used saaz) so I'll see how they go. This will be the first of a few tripels (well actually the third or fourth but more to come) so I'll be playing a lot with hop additions till I think I've hit the nail.

@braufrau - mind sharing your recipe?