Belgian Saison

[punkin]

I did a 90l batch of Bullhead Saison the other week and pitched the belgian saison yeast on half and put the other half on top of a nottingham yeast cake.

I'm drinking the ale atm, and i have to say the acidulated malt comes through in a way that is really not to my taste. I have 50l of brew that tastes lightly of piss. :lol:

Hoping the saison yeast one will be a lot better and by my fermenter tastes so far i think it will be. B)

 

[drtomc]

Keep in mind that most of the flavour in a Saison comes from the yeast.

My first Saison was (from memory) about 50/50 Pils malt & wheat malt with a single 90min hop addition. Really bland on its own, but the finished beer was one of my best. The Belgian Saison yeast is a diva!

T.

 

[Nick JD]

My Amarillo Saison has heaps of cloves. Weird yeast.

Last time I got heaps of pear during ferment, then it mellowed to be dried apricots.

Wonder what the thrid generation will bring?

 

[drtomc]

Remind me, which yeast was that?

 

[Nick JD]

Gonna put a Belgian Saison down in a warm corner of the garage for a few weeks now it's getting summery. Does this recipe have any issues?

17L
3.5kg Wey Pils
0.4kg Dextrose
0.1kg Wey Caramunich 3
0.05kg Special B
10g Galena 60min
15g EKG 20min
WY 3724 Belgian Saison @ 20-30C

:icon_cheers:

EDIT: I read saisons often have a bit of sugaz, is this too much? Will it be insanly thin? Also, every afternoon (when the sun's on it), my garage gets close to 35C - is it advisable to push this yeast to that end of its range?

I've read about people finished it off with another neutral yeast - was that below 35C?

 

[drtomc]

Curious. It's probably my dead palette, but I've never got cloves from 3724.

OTOH, my latest Saison used 500g dark candi sugar and has fantastic dark fruit in the aroma.

T.

 

[Nick JD]

Curious. It's probably my dead palette, but I've never got cloves from 3724.

OTOH, my latest Saison used 500g dark candi sugar and has fantastic dark fruit in the aroma.

T.

Might be the really low OG and only a 60 minute hop addition. Also, it hummed along at 35C and was done in days. Here's the recipe:

18L
3.4kg Wey Pale Ale
50g Caramunich 3
24g Amarillo 60 min
3724

 

[drtomc]

Could be the OG - I tend to go for round 1.060 - 1.070, but I also only do 1 hop addition early.

Could just be I've got a wooden palette and just fail to taste it.

T.

 

[punkin]

Tasted my Bullshead Saison again today, it's down to 1011 and cruising down pretty well, which means that i'll have a yeast cake shortly to pitch onto.
I've been through the RDB and looked at all the Saisons listed there and having trouble finding one that matches the ingredients i have and also leaves out the acidulated malt.
That's just out of my appreciation range

Any suggestions for a malt bill for a new batch?

i have ale, pilsener, munich1, wheat, rye, caramalt, chocolate porter and crystal 140.

Help would be appreciated, i don't know enough to design a recipe, although i'm learning slowly.

 

[drtomc]

I'm not an expert, myself, but I've had good success with 80%-90% pils 10%-20% munich i to an OG of 1.060. Single 90min hop addition 20-25 IBUs. BIAB infusion mash 90min @ 63C. I'm sure you could sub between the pils and ale malts with no trouble. The flavor is very much driven by the yeast, so the malt bill is pretty flexible.

T.

 

[Nick JD]

You could probably deconstruct a recipe from BJCP's style guide.

Ingredients: Pilsner malt dominates the grist though a portion of Vienna and/or Munich malt contributes color and complexity. Adjuncts such as candi sugar and honey can also serve to add complexity and thin the body. Hop bitterness and flavor may be more noticeable than in many other Belgian styles. A saison is sometimes dry-hopped. Noble hops, Styrian or East Kent Goldings are commonly used. A wide variety of herbs and spices are generally used to add complexity and uniqueness in the stronger versions. Varying degrees of acidity and/or sourness can be created by the use of gypsum, acidulated malt, a sour mash or Lactobacillus. Hard water, common to most of Wallonia, can accentuate the bitterness and dry finish.

 

[punkin]

My Bullshead is ready to keg and i'd like to pitch a new brew on the lees tomorrow. I'm keen on a darker brown beer.

I had a play in Brewmate with the guidelines in mind and came up with this...


Brown Saison1 (Saison)

Original Gravity (OG): 1.048 (P): 11.9
Final Gravity (FG): 1.004 (P): 1.0
Alcohol (ABV): 5.78 %
Colour (SRM): 13.2 (EBC): 26.0
Bitterness (IBU): 29.5 (Average)

80% Pilsner
8% Munich I
6% Crystal 140
4% Wheat Malt
2% Chocolate

1.8 g/L East Kent Golding (5.1% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)
0.7 g/L East Kent Golding (5.1% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
0.9 g/L Hallertau Tradition (3.5% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma)


Single step Infusion at 64C for 60 Minutes. Boil for 60 Minutes

Fermented at 20C with PRO-22 - BELGIAN SAISON


Recipe Generated with BrewMate

Crystal 140 is Crystal medium.

I'd appreciate any comments or advise. I added some late hops in as the style said it was a little stronger on hop presence and thought i'd add flameout instead of dry hopping?

 

[Nick JD]

My Bullshead is ready to keg and i'd like to pitch a new brew on the lees tomorrow. I'm keen on a darker brown beer.

I had a play in Brewmate with the guidelines in mind and came up with this...


Brown Saison1 (Saison)

Original Gravity (OG): 1.048 (P): 11.9
Final Gravity (FG): 1.004 (P): 1.0
Alcohol (ABV): 5.78 %
Colour (SRM): 13.0 (EBC): 25.5
Bitterness (IBU): 29.5 (Average)

80% Pilsner
8% Pale Malt
6% Crystal 140
4% Wheat Malt
2% Chocolate

1.8 g/L East Kent Golding (5.1% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)
0.7 g/L East Kent Golding (5.1% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
0.9 g/L Hallertau Tradition (3.5% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma)


Single step Infusion at 64C for 60 Minutes. Boil for 60 Minutes

Fermented at 20C with PRO-22 - BELGIAN SAISON


Recipe Generated with BrewMate


I'd appreciate any comments or advise. I added some late hops in as the style said it was a little stronger on hop presence and thought i'd add flameout instead of dry hopping?

Looks good. I'm not sure you can really make a "wrong" saison, can you? Seems to be a pretty broad style.

I've got one in the shed ATM that's basically an APA. 40 IBUs of Citra at 15 minutes. It's tasting AMAZING in the fermenter.

 

[punkin]

Looks good. I'm not sure you can really make a "wrong" saison, can you? Seems to be a pretty broad style.

I've got one in the shed ATM that's basically an APA. 40 IBUs of Citra at 15 minutes. It's tasting AMAZING in the fermenter.

You beat my edit. i had palemalt showing instead of the medium crystal due to a scolling acident <_<

 

[punkin]

Had some feedback from Tony and revised the recipe to this;


Brown Saison1 (Saison)

Original Gravity (OG): 1.048 (P): 11.9
Final Gravity (FG): 1.004 (P): 1.0
Alcohol (ABV): 5.78 %
Colour (SRM): 16.9 (EBC): 33.3
Bitterness (IBU): 29.5 (Average)

77% Pilsner
15% Munich I
4% Chocolate
4% Crystal 140

1.8 g/L East Kent Golding (5.1% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)
0.7 g/L East Kent Golding (5.1% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
0.9 g/L Hallertau Tradition (3.5% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma)


Single step Infusion at 64C for 60 Minutes. Boil for 60 Minutes

Fermented at 20C with PRO-22 - BELGIAN SAISON


Recipe Generated with BrewMate


It's in the mash tun now, so too late for changes. :icon_cheers:

 

[Tony]

HOw did it go Punkin?



I have a bit of a conclusion to my little saison experiment

I made 34L of Bullshead Summer Saison, only i added 8.7% Simpson Golden Naked Oats ........ cause im a homebrewer and i could

Recipe:

Test Saison

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 34.00 Wort Size (L): 34.00
Total Grain (kg): 5.75
Anticipated OG: 1.040 Plato: 9.89
Anticipated EBC: 7.0
Anticipated IBU: 23.8
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
78.3 4.50 kg. Weyermann Pilsner Germany 1.038 4
10.4 0.60 kg. JWM Wheat Malt Australia 1.038 4
8.7 0.50 kg. TF Pale Oat Malt UK 1.032 15
2.6 0.15 kg. Weyermann Acidulated Germany 1.035 5



Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
60.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 4.00 19.6 45 min.
20.00 g. E.K Goldings Pellet 6.50 4.2 10 min.
30.00 g. Tettnanger Tettnang Pellet 4.50 0.0 0 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3724 Belgian Saison
&
WYeast 3711 French Saison



I split the brew into 2 cubes, and pitched them both side by side with different yeasts.... 3711 and 3724.

Garage sat ay a fairly constant 25 to 28 deg they whole time.

I actually got very high efficiency and ended up with 1.048. Lost a liter to racking filtering and tasting and added 3 liters of water to each filtered keg before carbonating to give origional desired ABV of 5%
3711 fermented out first..... to 1.003 in about 8 - 10 days
3724 took 3 weeks and got down to 1.004

Left is 3724, right 3711

Tasting:

3711: Aroma is deep and one dimentional, earthy apples and lemon. Flavour is the same as arome with some nice malt behind the initial earthy citrus yeast character. Bugger all hops but it was no chill (hop killer) and bone dry. A touch of sweetness from low bitterness in the finnish

3724: Arona is of bright summer fruits like peach and pear. Flavour is mild fruity flavours which are almost sweet and floral in the mouth, well ballanced with Pilsner malt flavours. Also no hops due to no chill but the finnish is a touch sweeter than 3711 even with the dryness of the beer ballancing well.

Conclusion:

Both yeasts are great yeasts!

But i far prefer the 3724 Belgian Saison over the 3711 French Saison.

the 3724 beer is far more pleasant to drink, brighter, more aromatic and flavoursom, better ballanced .... morish!

the 3711 beer is still a great beer, i kust feel 3711 produces a better flavoured beer.

The 3711 was very fast to ferment, cleared well, and will make great winter saison with a heat blanket! But when its hot...... its 3724 i will be using to brew fine fine saison.

Love it!

 

[punkin]

It went glug, glug glug as i tipped 40l out of two kegs down the drain on xmas day :unsure:

It got an infection and though i chilled and gassed it with prayers it was undrinkable. :icon_vomit:

That's the end of the saion for me for the time being as i was too stupid to save some of the yeast before i pitched.

 

[manticle]

3724 took 3 weeks and got down to 1.004

Mine got to 1010 and stayed there for a bit so I tightened the cube abd whacked her in the fridge for the two weeks I was away. I had a feeling she might have more to go but didn't want to leave an unsealed cube around in hot weather for that long. Took her out of the fridge a couple of days ago to see if she will kickstart.

From memory my mash temp was around 63 (actually likely a step mash from 63 to 67 but 63 step would have been a decent length) so going on your experience, I can expect to get at least 1005-1006 before considering another bout of CC?

French saison is surprisingly good considering I poured most of the first runnings on the ground and still made the wort up to full volume - light saison flavours, slightly bready, slightly spicy, low alc, dry and refreshing and clear as a bell (no finings etc). Perfect summer beer.

 

[Tony]

(actually likely a step mash from 63 to 67 but 63 step would have been a decent length)

theres your problem i recon

I go 52, 63, 71........ 10 min, 45 min, 10 min recirc to clear then mash out at this 71.

Mine got to 1.012 in about 1.5 weeks and took the next week to finnish down to 1.004

It really is a "be patient and forget it for a month" yeast

cheers

 

[manticle]

Last couple of days out of the fridge saw her get to about 1007. I'll be leaving it for another week (readings dependent) before whacking in the fridge again but I have faith in my step mash regime. Just don't want to bottle too early - nearly got fooled the first time I used 3711.

Any problems probably stemmed more from my inability to get the temp up more than about 27 for a decent length of time as summer here has been slow to start. Putting cubes in hot water baths and stressing that it's too cool during december is pretty funny when I think about it.

If she turns out OK, I'd be keen for a bottle swap. You never did send me those chillis.