Belgian Saison/PA recipe feedback

[technobabble66]

Hey y'all.
I didn't want to hijack Tahoose's thread so i thought i'd do a separate one.
Basically i wanted to have a crack at something between a typical saison and a blonde or pale ale - kinda like a saison but more malty while keeping the alc% ~5.5% or lower.
I started by looking at a few Leffe Blonde clones, then tweaked them a little:

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OG=0.045
FG=0.006
alc=5.4%
IBU=19.2
EBC=12.7

3kg Boh Plis (61%)
1kg Vienna (20%)
0.5kg Munich II (10%)
0.15kg Victory (3%)
0.1kg Melanoiden (2%)
0.05kg Amber (1%)
0.1kg Acidulated (2%)

2g CaSO4 + 2g CaCl + 1g MgSO4 into Mash
0.8g CaSO4 + 1.3g CaCl + 0.5g MgSO4 into Sparge
0.5g CaSO4 + 1g CaCl + 0.5g MgSO4 into Boil

24L Mash & 10L Sparge

55/65/72/78 for 5/60/20/2
Boil for 80mins

15g Horizon @ 20min
10g Hall Mitt @ 20min
14g Select @ 20min
5g Horizon @ 5min
5g Horizon @ 0min

Mangrove Jack M27 @ 23°C for 3 days, then ramp to 27°C
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The grain combo is intended to be a little complex for added depth, with a touch of Amber malt to bring a tiny hint of toastiness. Otherwise the honey elements of the BohPils should be dominant, with a gradual slide into more malty territory.
The hops are focused around the delicate spicy noble elements of the HM & Select, with Horizon adding a slightly floral and citrusy element (i'm trying to save my EKG for another brew). All have low cohumulone to hopefully ensure smooth bittering (i've noticed a slight harsher edge to some recent brews i'm hoping to avoid). That's also why i've kept the IBUs a little low.
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Any feedback/thoughts on this would be appreciated. Otherwise i'm happy to just give it a crack and see what happens. I've also not used the M27, so i'm keen to see how similar it is to Belle Saison.

Edit - changed Munich I to Munich II

 

[Adr_0]

Great recipe, but 10% munich would get lost in the mix and wouldn't add anything IMO. If you do want a Munich flavour I would go with Munich II to 13% in place of the Victory and maybe lift the melanoidin a bit.

Amber is a nice touch (1-2% is probably all you need) and toastiness will come from this. You should have the nutty, bready flavours well and truly covered by the Vienna, Munich II and melanoidin.

Tough one though. I'm pretty confident brewing it as is you will not notice your 10% Munich, but I'm not sure what the ideal solution is.

 

[technobabble66]

Apologies Adr_0, the Munich is actually meant to be Munich II !
I've just changed the first post to reflect that. Good spotting! and it's good to see you think the Munich 2 will have the better impact.

TBH i'm not sure what Vienna is going to do for this. I've not done a majority-Vienna recipe to get an accurate idea of what it brings to the party. I get the impression it's a slightly more malty/bready version of ale malt, with a little (honey) pilsner element to it.
I like the deep bready/malty tones of Munich 2, so i'm hoping the Vienna will fit in between the BohPils and Munich 2.
The Victory is there more for aromatics - i'm curious to see how it'll fit in with the Belgian yeast aromatics - and also a bit more of the nutty flavour to hook in with the toasty "tail" from the Amber.
I'm indulging in the theorising behind this, with the extremely high likelihood it'll have nothing to do with the end result and all the flavours will just blur together ("yeah, it's a kinda malty saison, is all...").
Basically, I'm trying to see if i can achieve a gradual unfolding of the flavour or if it'll just be a blurred/homogenised malty flavour all at once.

You're not keen on the Victory in there? (i'd be using Biscuit, but all i have is several kgs of Victory).

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[Adr_0]

Vienna is a sweet, cereally malt and has some nutty character. I decocted some of it in a recent batch and it came up (obviously sweet and malty) with a marzipan flavour. Some people say it has a hazlenut character which I can understand.

I think it's ok in this recipe and will work well between the pils and munich II.

Anyway, if you want aromatic and biscuity, melanoidin is your malt. I think by the time you have the Pils/vienna/MII and then amber and melanoidin, the victory will really just muddy the flavours - IMO.

 

[technobabble66]

Hmmm ... i was particularly keen on getting that aromatic effect of something like Dingemanns Aromatic or Biscuit, which i thought Victory was meant to be a reasonable sub for. If you think the combo of Vienna/M2 and the Melanoiden would do that then i'll save the Victory for another day.
I might be a little influenced by my perception of Manticle's common use of 100-150g of Biscuit into many different recipes to enhance aromatics. Then again, i don't think he uses Melanoiden that much, so i could easily be unnecessarily doubling up with both the Victory & Melanoiden together.

Edit: thanks for the description on Vienna - it's always so hard to pin down what a grain will taste like. Some descriptions are so vague or minimal. Can't say I'm sold on marzipan or hazelnut, but I've got kgs to get thru so I'll give it a shot in this!

 

[technobabble66]

Ok, just started the mash-in for this.
I did a slight alteration. I was going to drop out the Victory, but got it out and had a taste - how could i not put any in?!? So i went with 150g Melanoiden and 100g Victory.
FWIW, the (grains of) Melanoiden has that classic deep rich maltiness, the Amber has a taste almost identical to toast, and the Victory is somewhere in between & maybe a little drier than the Melanoiden (so similar to the Amber in that sense).

So it is:

Saison du Malt:
3kg Boh Plis (61%)
1kg Vienna (20%)
0.5kg Munich II (10%)
0.10kg Victory (2%)
0.15kg Melanoiden (3%)
0.05kg Amber (1%)
0.1kg Acidulated (2%)

Slight disaster w the Mashing - my 65°C step was accidentally ramped up to 70°C (i'm sure that wouldn't be a problem in a saison! :unsure: ). So after the initial panic i threw in 2 L of cold water and some vigorous stirring dropped it down to 65°C after 5-10mins. So i've left it at 65°C for 50mins. Hopefully that won't screw it up too badly, and there won't be after more cock-ups today!
Fingers crossed!

 

[technobabble66]

Quick update:
Finally picked up a new hydrometer after breaking the last one during cleanup. Tested the FV. SG=1.006, FV sitting at 29°C. Looking and tasting good, but need a bit of time to settle i'd guess. I'll see how the gravity goes, but hopefully it's hit FG and i can bottle it in a few days.
For the record, the M27 has taken 5 days to hit ~86% attenuation.