Red Saison - help needed.

[technobabble66]

Ok, the plan is to try my hand at a Red Saison.
Now i've never done a saison before so it'd obviously be much smarter to try a basic version like the Bullshead ones. However, this is to be inflicted upon the Vic Case Swap & the Merri Mashers (probably 2 variants of the same recipe) and so i thought i should do something a bit more exciting than a basic saison. Could be foolish (open to advice there).
I've just done a Celtic Red that worked well, just not very red. So i used that recipe, then altered it a bit, then a bit more, then finally came up with this one.
I'm obviously in need of advice on this one as it's currently a bit of a stab in the dark.

Poignarder Rouge Saison
("Red Stab Saison" - fancy hey!?)

Vol = 23.5
OG = 1.047
FG = 1.007
IBU = 27.2
EBC = 26.4
alc = 5.4%

4kg Pilsner
0.1kg Munich 2
0.1kg CaraAroma
0.1kg Melanoiden
0.1kg Amber
0.05kg Roasted Barley
0.15kg Acidulated

Mash roughly 55/63/72/78 for 10/60/20/5

5g Horizon @60min
10g Horizon @40min
15g Spalt Select @ 20min

Yeast, not sure: one of MJ's Belgian Ale, Belle Saison, or try one of the liquids.

Now the main issue is the malt grist. There's maybe too many things in there, but reasoning is to bump up the maltiness a little (Munich 2, Melanoiden), add some colour (CaraAroma, RB, Amber) add the dried fruit flavours (CaraAroma), and a slight toasted edge (Amber).

Feedback v welcome (& needed) on all fronts.
Thanks!

 

[Mardoo]

From my experiments with Saison I'd recommend going simple. As distinctive as Saison flavor is, I've managed to bury it beneath the flavors of amber attempts a few times now. FWIW my next one will be by the book. That's my two cents.

Edit: IIRC Prince Imperial did an awesome amber-ish rye saison I tasted. I'm on my phone so can't find it, but he did post the recipe somewhere on here. Great!

 

[manticle]

This is a situation where less is more. You've got a bit of everything. Saison complexity is yeast driven and you'll either overshadow that with a kitchen sink grist or the complex grist will become muddled in the face of the phenolics.
Take a simple saison recipe - say just pils and wheat, add something to make it red that won't be out of place (I'd suggest the roast barley will do a fine job as it suits dry beers in small amounts) and either hop with noble spicy or citrus hops (hall mitt for lemon, saaz or spalt for spice) or do a new world version with an appropriate nz, au or us hop.
You can push a bit of malt complexity with mash process rather than 80 ingredients.

 

[tazman1967]

I agree with the other posters, grain bill is a bit complicated for a Saison.
I would cut the Munich II, Amber and Roasted Barley out...
Also, with that amount of barley, I would be upping the IBU's to 30-35 to balance out the malt.
As for the hops..what Manticle said, Decide either Euro, American or NZ hops..
Hall Mit, Saaz or Spalt, Centennial, Citra, Mosaic.. or Nelson Sav, Motueka B.
Yeast choices.. up to you.. Either Bell Saison for dry, French or Belgian for liquid.

Best of luck with your brew.

 

[mje1980]

If you're keen just do 90% pils and 10% dark candy syrup. Nice colour and flavour but you'll still get good attenuation.

 

[Mardoo]

Love Spalt in Saison!

 

[technobabble66]

Thanks for your replies, guys!

Well, bugger! I thought i might be onto something with that recipe. Obviously i still have much to learn, esp on Saisons :huh:

So basically all the specs get dropped except maybe the Roast Barley or CaraAroma, if i'm still keen to aim for a reddish hue. I'll probably go a little RB, as i think the CaraAroma would add more malty elements, and so i'm less sure of whether it'd work well.

I've got access to most spec grains, so is there anything else that'd be worthwhile using?
Biscuit/Victory or Vienna?

I'll probably stick with the more noble hops of Spalter Select (& horizon for bittering).
However, i tried the Mountain Goat Yuzu Saison today - rather tasty with the yuzu; v light fruity flavour. I not keen on doing that trashy fruit infusion thing, but i was feeling a bit inspired towards the New World hops. So i'm toying with using a whisker of Cascade at flameout
...and then replacing the Select with Nelson...
Any other advice on hops? - again, i've got access to quite a few hops (Hall Mit, EKG, Select, Horizon; or Cascade, Nelson, citra, simcoe, williamette, columbus, chinook, galaxy, Northern Brewer)

Also added salt additions.

Anyways, this is the current version:

Poignarder Rouge Saison
Vol = 23.5
OG = 1.043
FG = 1.005 [calc'd w 82% attentuation -reasonable estimate?]
IBU = 22.8
EBC = 23.3
alc = 5.1%

3kg Wey Boh Pilsner
1.2kg Wey Wheat malt
0.075kg Roasted Barley
0.15kg Wey Acidulated

1g CaSO4 + 2.5g CaCl2 into mash & boil,
0.4g CaSO4 + 1g CaCl2 into sparge

Mash roughly 55/63/72/78 for 10/60/20/5

5g Horizon @60min
15g Horizon @40min
15g Spalt Select @ 20min
[5g Cascade @ Flameout??]

Yeast, still not sure: one of MJ's Belgian Ale, Belle Saison, or try one of the liquids.
Anyone else used MJ's Belgian Ale? I need a quick fermentation, so i might go towards the French versions if i can, or maybe Belle Saison for ease.
What's the fastest fermenter (w a decent finish, of course)?

Any other bits of advice would be welcome.
Probably now mainly to do with the hops - do raffish new world hops play well with the nobles?

 

[manticle]

3711 mid- high 20s. Start at 20, over 3 days raise to 26 and hold.

 

[manticle]

And do noble or new world.

 

[technobabble66]

Thanks again, Mants.

From earlier, when you say I could push malt complexity via the mash regime, do you mean doing a decoction or a boil reduction?
If so, could I just use a little melanoiden or crystal/caraAroma, respectively, instead?

 

[manticle]

Take note of my edit above - couple of typos from late night posting.
I mean you can get complexity through step mashing more than decoction.
I wouldn't add crystal to a saison. I've never used melanoiden but I don't generally decoct saisons so I wouldn't think of melanoiden. Steady that malt throwing hand my friend.

Some styles do well with judicious additions of blended spec malts. This is not one of them. It's yeast driven - malt and hops need to be in harmony. They are playing very important supporting roles.

 

[Mardoo]

That's great advice about yeast-driven styles Manticle, and very, very well said. Thanks.

 

[technobabble66]

...Steady that malt throwing hand my friend.

Some styles do well with judicious additions of blended spec malts. This is not one of them. It's yeast driven - malt and hops need to be in harmony. They are playing very important supporting roles.

But but but ... I've got so many spec malts and hops!!! :lol:
Humph, ok.

I think I'll try 2 simple versions.
Basically the latter one above and then a version with cascade (seems a safe new world option). Or try 2 diff yeasts... Or 2 diff fermentation temps...
I might try to put a stubby of each into my swap for both the MM and Vic case swap.

Thanks again for being the voice of reason, manticle!

Ps: does the mash schedule look good, or better with a slight tweak?

 

[manticle]

Mash scedule looks good - for something I want to finish dry, I'll extend the beta rest and decrease the alpha. 15-20@62, 30-40@ 69-70, 10@72.

 

[technobabble66]

Ok
I guess it'll be something like:
55/62/69/72/78 for
5/20/30/15/5

I believe dry is better for saison, at least for my tastes going by the couple I've had. So the above schedule should be right you think, or extend the low beta (62) even more?

 

[mje1980]

I did 90 minutes at 62 for my last saison. Wasn't overly dry. Dry yes, but I was hoping for bone dry. It was 100% pils.

In general I like dry beer so often do 30-45 mins for the low 60's rest and usually go straight to 72c from there. They still have good malt character to them.

 

[manticle]

I wouldn't extend past 20 if you want anything left for alpha to work with. 3711 will get it right down with that schedule but the alpha rest will still leave a bit of body and complexity.
Personal taste - I enjoy fuller mouthfeel in my beers, even drier styles and you will still get the dry finish and attenuation you want with that schedule.
If you want drier, forget the alpha rest altogether but the result will be thinner.

 

[Mardoo]

For new world hops I've used Willamette in saisons and really liked it. But then I REALLY, REALLY like Willamette.

 

[mje1980]

Hmmmm, got me thinking there. I love willamette as well and brew a few saisons. Might have to try that !

 

[Mardoo]

Found the rye saison recipe! I don't have time to put it up right now but I will later. PM me with your email address TB if you want to have a look sooner to help you decide. It's fantastic!