Ag Problems

[Wrenny]

G'day Guys,

I've been lurking around this site for a while now, so thanks everyone for the shed load of advice I've already got.


But I'm having a bit of a crisis and need some more ideas.

I'd brewed a few kit beers before a work mate encouraged me to try all grain. He had an old bucket in bucket boiler / mash tun that he leant me.

I started off with a schwarzbier - I think I got this recipe off the AHB recipes section

2.6 kg Light Muncih
1.9 kg Pilsner
0.75 kg Caramunich
0.25 kg Chocolate Malt
0.01 kg Wheat

10 mins @ 45 deg
30 min @ 60 deg
30 min @ 66 deg

35 g Mt Hood 60 mins
10 g Mt Hood 20 mins
10 g Mt Hood 5 mins

Did bucket in bucket. Tempretures were all over the place (up 5 deg out on a crappy thermometer) It splashed like hell while sparging (made me think hot wort aeration might be a problem). OG was about 50.

Saflager Yeast used. Fermented at 15 deg for one week. Racked to secondary for 2 weeks. FG was about 10.

Tasted very yeasty / starchy / musty out of the secondary, but bottled anyway. (Man, tastes are so hard to describe in words).



Then tried an Oktoberfest - Got this recipe from a clone brew book

3.0 kg Vienna Malt
1.7 kg Pilsner
1.2 kg Munich
0.25 kg Melanoiden
0.1 kg CaraAroma

Single Infusion 66 deg for 80 min

40 g Tettnanger 60 min
10 g Tet & 15 g Hersbruker 45 min
10 g Tet & 10 g Hersbruker 5 min

Mash temp might have been a bit out (64 deg, dropping to 59 at the end - still with a crappy thermometer). This time used a grain bag (BIAB style) and lifted it out to drain. Less splashing. Efficiency was a long way down on this one. Saflager Yeast used. OG was bout 42

Fermented at 15 deg for one week. Racked to secondary for 2 weeks. FG was about 12

Still tasted a bit yeasty / starchy / musty out of the secondary.





Thought my problem might be mash temp related, so got me a new digital thermometer.


Then brewed an Irish red - this recipe came from the Beersmith Website:

5.3 kg Maris Otter
0.45 kg Flaked Barley
0.3 kg Dark Crystal
0.07 kg Chocolate

Single Infusion 70 deg for 45 min (missed by a mile - 65 deg. I figured it would just be a bit drier than expected, but I extended this to an hour). Back to bucket in bucket with all the splashing.

40 g EK Goldings 60 min
20 g EK Goldings 5 mins

OG was about 60, added water to get 55 (recipe og). Nottingham Ale Yeast

Fermented at about 18 deg for a week

Tasted horrible. Exactly the same yeasty / starchy / musty taste but much stronger.

I've now given is a day rest at 24 deg, then into the fridge for a day.




By this time the schwarzbier was ready to taste.
Crap. Exactly the same yeasty / starchy / musty taste.

The oktoberfest was a bit young in the bottle, but I thought I'd give it a taste.
Barely drinkable. Tasted okay at first, but then a slight yeasty / starchy / musty aftertaste. Unfortunately, the aftertaste kept building up. So one bottle was more than enough.



The lighter beer seemed better than the darker ones, so next I tried a Peroni (Italian lager) clone from a clone recipe book.

4.2 kg Maris Otter
1.0 kg Flaked Rice
0.2 kg Crystal Malt

Single infusion 66 deg for 75 min. Missed again, temp varied throughout the mash from73 to 72 deg.

40 g Saaz for 60 min
20 g Saaz for 15 min

OG was about 56, but shed loads of trub, so syphoned off 18 l and made up to 23 l. Finished with an og of 47 (bang on recipe). Saflager Yeast used.

Fermented in water bath at 15 deg for 1 week. Gravity is down to 15, and it tastes bloody good (early days yet). I'll rack it to a secondary soon and give it a couple more weeks.




So, my main question is:
Why does my beer taste cr ap?



A couple of other things:


1) I use rainwater. Do I need to add salts? I've checked out John Palmers how to brew guide, he's got a cool spreadsheet for adding salts. Do you reckon this will make a difference?



2) I've never checked pH. I assume that rainwater pH is about 6.5, which may be high. Should I check and adjust each mash? Would this make a huge difference?



3) Does this sound like hot wort aeration? Does that cause slightly bad beer, or can it make the beer so bad that it is undrinkable?




4) Do starches change the gravity of the wort? I was thinking maybe it's incomplete conversion. But the OG's look right, and the OG's are nice and low. Maybe I should do an iodine test?





If anyone has made it this far, well done. I'd give you a beer, but they are all cr ap. Any advice would be helpful.


Cheers,

Wrenny

 

[matti]

1. only treat the water to style if needed.
2. to check pH is a good idea using light grains
3. yes HSA taste baddish and hide hop aroma
4.Iodine totally up to you but its a great idea.

ps. I tranferred syphoning semi hot wort from kettle to fermenter and still got HSA.
If you can allow to cool in kettle to below 40 degrees if you cannot transfer without splashing.

The darker beers may mask this better but the pale will taste slighty offish.

 

[bconnery]

If you are consistently getting the same flavour then it would sound like a consistent error, that is at least the same.

It sounds to me like it is possibly a sanitation or water quality issue.

I would suggest PMing Ross of craftbrewer re water as I know he uses all tank water also and he doesn't have issues. Others may be in the same boat.

HSA might be an issue but I'd be slightly dubious as I have had ones that splashed around without issue and there is also a school of thought that suggests it may not effect homebrews much at all.



Sanitation seems an obvious potential problem. What are you using to clean and sanitize?



Perhaps if you go step by step through your brew day in a post, including cleaning santizing, and ignoring recipe particulars given you are consistently getting the same issue, and people might be able to pin point better.

I've got less than a dozen AG brews under my belt so I'm still picking my way through this new part of brewing too so I can't give any direct cut and dried answer...

 

[matti]

I must agree with bconnery

flavour then it would sound like a consistent error, that is at least the same.

I could be as simple as there something in the water.

 

[MVZOOM]

Plastic buckets - are they leaching something? Food grade plastic?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Musty... maybe a little mold somewhere in the system?? Pull apart any taps, valves, seals etc etc on your mashtun, kettle and fermentors and check/clean/replace them. Also could be on the inside of any hoses you are using. Pour a glass of water from exactly the same tap/hose you are filling your mashtun from.. pure, clean and nice??

Also obvious but.. is the grain nice and fresh? Hasn't been sitting around in a damp shed for months or anything? Same with the hops.

If you cant find anything... maybe try brewing with a batch you make out of water from the supermarket. Try to repeat one of the recipes where you notice the flavour strongly (maybe the red ale) and see of there is a big difference using different water.

Its a pity yopu aren't enjoying your AG beers, good luck tracking down the problem.

Thirsty

 

[pint of lager]

Hi Wrenny, after putting in the time and effort into an ag brew, it is very disappointing when they don't turn out. But am sure that you can solve the problem.

In answer to your questions, what the other posters have already said.

1. Rainwater is a great base to brew with. I found my brews improved with the addition of some calcium in the form of 1/3 teaspoon calcium sulphate (gypsum) and 1/3 teaspoon calcium chloride. If you want to use the excellent water additions, you will need a set of accurate scales, down to 0.1 gm, cheap off ebay. Rainwater can be a source of infections. I use plain rainwater to wash and rinse with, then follow up with a good no rinse sanitiser on everything.

All water added to your brews must be boiled. Obviously, all your mashin water is fine as it is boiled in the kettle, it is any water used post boil. Especially top up water. This may be a source of infections for you.

2. pH is a minor issue for a homebrewer using rainwater. If you use a pH meter, it must be calibrated regularly. If you are worried about pH, grab some of the pH mash buffer powder. Try your local HBS, otherwise the site sponsors will look after a mail order.

3. HSA causes long term stability problems. The beer starts deteriorating. First you lose hop aroma, then flavour. It won't show up quickly.

Cold side aeration is where your problem may lie. Only aerate at the very start of fermenting. After 24 hours, do not aerate. Make sure when doing any racking, bottling or keg transfers, you use a racking tube and bottling tube. CSA shows up as wet cardboard flavours, which may be detected as earthy or mouldy.

Back to your brewing. Simplify everything. Brew ales, use nice fresh dried yeast, fresh ingredients, make sure your sanitation is up to scratch. I suggest you do not brew any more lagers, as they can be very unforgiving. Get your problems sorted on ales, as they have a quicker turn around.

A high priority for you is to nail your mash temps. HSA and pH are a minor tweak compared to mash temps.

You can mash in the bucket in bucket, just insulate it with an el cheapo camping mat or bubblewrap. Sit the bucket in bucket on a crate and use a towel to insulate the base. Put your strike water at 75 degrees in the mashtun, pour in the grain, stir really well for two minutes, make sure that you also mix the top layer with the bottom layer by stirring with a scooping action. Make sure you have a kettle of boiling (not simmering) water ready, and a jug of cold if you need to adjust the mash temp. Wait two minutes to let the mash stabilise, then take a temperature reading and adjust of need be with your hot and cold. You want a mash temp of 66-67. Mashin in with 2.5 litres water per kilo plus 2 litres to allow for the dead space. Learn how to read your thermometer. For instance, a glass stem thermometer must be immersed to the marked line (0 deg if none shown) and allowed to stabilise for 30 seconds.

Bucket in bucket is a cheap easy way to mash. I did about 20 bucket mashes before upsizing to gear for a larger batch size.

If anyone else is brewing ag near you, see if you can sit in on a brewday, you may pick up some more ideas. This will also allow you to calibrate your mashin thermometer with theirs.

 

[Guest Lurker]

If anyone else is brewing ag near you, see if you can sit in on a brewday, you may pick up some more ideas. This will also allow you to calibrate your mashin thermometer with theirs.

As usual POL provides comprehensive and sound advice. But I would highlight this as the most important bit. Sounds like you have got into AG on your own and everything is new and unfamiliar. So you have no idea if it is a process issue, a gear issue or an ingedient issue. But if you stood and watched a more experienced brewer, or they watched you (and drank some of your beers) I reckon at some point there would be a "Doh" and it would click into place.

So...update your profile with your location, take your beers to a brew club and get them tasted, get yourself to an ag brew day, and that will be far more effective than trying to describe your process and the taste of your beers on here.

 

[Wrenny]

Thanks guys.

I think I'm allright with sanitation. I give everything a good clean and soak in sanitiser before and after each batch. But I'll still step it up as a precaution.

The top up water might be the key. The mash and sparge water is filtered and then ultimately boiled. But, the top up water hasn't even been filtered.

The salts tip also sounds like a winner.

A simple Ale sounds good for the next brew.


And Ross and Mothballs, or anyone south of Brissi - next time you need an assistant brewer, let me know.


Cheers,
Wrenny.

 

[barneyhanway]

Great advice POL,
I was just about to also recommend leaving the lagers until you have some temperature control for fermentation, and a bit more experience. Simple ales are far more forgiving.
I'd also dismiss hot side aeration as the source of your problems. I splash lots more than I should, it's never been an issue.
With that accurate thermometer you should be able to do simple ales with single infusion until your system is dialed, you need to start drinking some good results so you don't lose enthusiasm!

 

[pint of lager]

Better brewers than I have done side by side tests for HSA and it does exist. A symptom is that your beer ages quickly. It loses hop aroma first, then the hop flavour changes and vanishes.

I take steps to minimise it by splashing as little as possible, keeping the grain bed covered with water and using a pinch of sodium met in the mashtun. I don't have any proof, but I suspect it is when the grainbed is exposed to oxygen that the problem occurs. The grainbed quickly goes brown, which is an obvious sign of something happening.

For a new brewer, HSA is low on the list of priorities, but as you hone your skills, it needs addressing.

Styles that are meant to be consumed quickly are best for newer brewers.

 

[rwh]

So fly sparging would reduce your HSA because the grain bed is not being drained dry, except right at the end, as opposed to batch where you drain all the water out a few times?

 

[pint of lager]

So fly sparging would reduce your HSA because the grain bed is not being drained dry, except right at the end, as opposed to batch where you drain all the water out a few times?

That is what I suspect, but these things are very hard to quantify. The batch spargers do not report any problems, but they may not have thought of this issue and haven't gone looking. If the next batch of sparge water is fairly quickly added back to the tun, the problem may be minimised.

I keep the grainbed topped up right to the end while running off. When I have run enough for the kettle, only then do I drain the mashtun right out.

 

[Wrenny]

Well guys. I'm glad to say I may have jumped the gun with my little crisis. The problem may have been that I just don't know what the beer should tast like after primary fermentation. Maybe I just got a mouth full of yeast cake and freaked out. Or maybe the nice little yeasties cleaned up some of my mistake and then passed on to the happy place where all good yeasties go when they have lived a good life (ie the bottom of the bottles).

Yes, after a month or so bottle conditioning, the oktoberfest is definatly drinkable. The missus reckons it's quite nice, but she only had a sip. The strange taste that scarred the hell out of me has mellowed. You can just notice a slightly smokey aftertaste. I still think I can do way better, but at least I can drink this one.

Bottled the Irish Red on the weekend. Another step that I had missed on the previous two brews was to crash cool the brew for a couple of days before bottling. This seemed to clean up the taste, and it wasn't too bad going into the bottle. A couple more weeks and we'll see about that one.

Also racked the Peroni Lager into the secondary (after a couple of days diacetyl rest, and then chilling for a couple of days). It was quite a clean taste too (which is what I was aiming for). Fingers crossed with that one.

With the lager in the secondary, should I still have it at fermentation tempreture (18 deg) or just chuck it in the fridge? And how long for in the fridge. I did read the post on lagering vs bottle / keg conditioning, and the jist of that seemed to be that largering was not very effective. So should I just leave the secondary in the fridge for a couple of weeks to get out as much yeast as possible, then bottle?

Anyway, thanks for your help guys. I'll still be putting your tips into practice.

Cheers,
Wrenny.

 

[Toby5]

Well guys. I'm glad to say I may have jumped the gun with my little crisis. The problem may have been that I just don't know what the beer should tast like after primary fermentation. Maybe I just got a mouth full of yeast cake and freaked out. Or maybe the nice little yeasties cleaned up some of my mistake and then passed on to the happy place where all good yeasties go when they have lived a good life (ie the bottom of the bottles).

Yes, after a month or so bottle conditioning, the oktoberfest is definatly drinkable. The missus reckons it's quite nice, but she only had a sip. The strange taste that scarred the hell out of me has mellowed. You can just notice a slightly smokey aftertaste. I still think I can do way better, but at least I can drink this one.

Bottled the Irish Red on the weekend. Another step that I had missed on the previous two brews was to crash cool the brew for a couple of days before bottling. This seemed to clean up the taste, and it wasn't too bad going into the bottle. A couple more weeks and we'll see about that one.

Also racked the Peroni Lager into the secondary (after a couple of days diacetyl rest, and then chilling for a couple of days). It was quite a clean taste too (which is what I was aiming for). Fingers crossed with that one.

With the lager in the secondary, should I still have it at fermentation tempreture (18 deg) or just chuck it in the fridge? And how long for in the fridge. I did read the post on lagering vs bottle / keg conditioning, and the jist of that seemed to be that largering was not very effective. So should I just leave the secondary in the fridge for a couple of weeks to get out as much yeast as possible, then bottle?

Anyway, thanks for your help guys. I'll still be putting your tips into practice.

Cheers,
Wrenny.

After heaps of ales, I just made my first lager, what a pain in the neck. Plus, when I'm out, I always drink ales anyway. So I can't think wtf I was doing. Sigh. Palmer suggests largering after the diacetyl rest for about 5 weeks at 5 degrees. Lager yeasts apparently need long periods at cold temperatures to eat up the sulfury compounds. I just left mine outside for a month where it was cold but none too consistent in temperature. Tasted it before bottling and it was great. No sulfur tastes. A little sweet because I hadn't built up my starter enough for the OG (60 or so) of the wort so there are a lot of unfermented sugars in there. Still tastes good. Palmer suggests adding more yeast prior to bottling which makes sense. The stuff I bottled (and didn't bother adding more yeast to) was clear. I couldn't be bothered adding more yeast. It might not carbonate, or if it does, then slowly. So I'll probably buy me a soda stream.... or drink flat beer. If an infection gets in though I'm in trouble...

In relation to your post quoted above, the good news is that it doesn't sound like a sanitation problem, but as mentioned, boiling your rain water is a good idea. Also, if you are rehydrating your yeast, make sure the vessel is sterile and the water has been boiled first. I've had all sorts of sanitation issues recently, until I came to the profound conclusion that brewing whilst drunk is a sh*te idea. Might as well bathe in the wort as brew whilst drunk. In fact, I suspect I did both. Anyways, it sounds like a yeast conditioning issue. Make sure you have a high yeast cell count and an aerated wort at pitching time. Also try keeping ales at 10-15 degrees in the secondary for another 2 weeks before bottling. My sober brews liked that. Read Palmer some more on this one. (Like a priest with no ideas of his own, I just quote the bible). In my view, the beer should taste good before bottling. Most of the conditioning should have been done by then, although taste and texture steadily improves for the next 4 months. Which, come to think of it, probably means my lager mentioned above is in trouble, with no yeast to work on. Damn it.

In relation to the cold break you mentioned above - it isn't supposed to make too much difference in the short term, except for the cosmetic appearance. But it is supposed to lead to long term stability problems. However, prior to throwing sterilized ice bricks into the wort I had the same issue - I didn't get a decent cold break. I have to say I think it does affect flavour. I'm slowly drinking a very average ale (it might be an average ale, but it's MY average ale) with shocking chill haze atm. Good hot and cold breaks are important for stability and taste imo.

Also make sure you are recirculating your wort through the grain bed (at least the first few litres of run-off after strike and sparge). The husks act as a filter to remove impurities.

Now I'm thirsty. Even for my average ale and flat unconditioned pilsener.

 

[tangent]

So I'll probably buy me a soda stream....

don't bother. I've tried gassing beer in a soda-stream. It works... right up to when you release the bottle. Then it doesn't.

 

[Wrenny]

Cheers Toby,

Good tip with the reciculating. I've just brought the bits and pieces to convert my esky into a mash tun with manifold, so I'll definately be recirculating till clear now.

We'll make great beer yet.

 

[fraser_john]

We'll make great beer yet.

The search for the perfect brewday, its an addiction :super:

 

[Trent]

Toby
Just a couple of quick questions - first up, you say to recirculate after strike in, which I have never heard of anyone doing (doesnt mean it isnt good for the brew, of course), so I was just wondering where you got that info from. Could be an interesting read.
Second question, is that you mention the pilsner you bottled tasting quite sweet from unfermented sugars, due to you not pitching sufficient yeast. What was the FG on the beer? After lagering, there is usually enough yeast to carbonate in the bottle still, so if the beer wasnt finished, there may be a chance of bottle bombs. Just keep an eye on em - but if the FG was down around where you expected it to finish (1010?), then disregard my comments. It is just that underpitching, especially in a lager, can lead to stuck ferments, and a resulting sweet taste. I have had stuck ferments restart in the bottle before
Best of luck brewing good beer, Wrenny, hope ya get there sooner rather than later.
All the best
Trent

 

[Wrenny]

Hallelujah, praise be Ninkasi,

The red tastes good, and the lager was quite clean and crisp out of the secondary into the bottles.

Now, what to brew next?

I was thinking of Ross's Nelson Sauvin Summer Ale. But I think the mash hopping might be a bit too complex. I'll make the next one as simple as possible to make sure I've got the process down pat.

How does this recipe look?



BeerSmith Recipe Printout - www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Maiden Voyage Pale Ale
Brewer: Wrenny
Asst Brewer:
Style: American Pale Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (0.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Boil Size: 26.33 L
Estimated OG: 1.046 SG
Estimated Color: 7.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 32.6 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
4.50 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (3.0 SRM)Grain 93.8 %
0.30 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 6.3 %
20.00 gm Chinook [13.00%] (60 min) Hops 28.4 IBU
10.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (15 min) Hops 3.0 IBU
10.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (5 min) Hops 1.2 IBU
1 Pkgs SafAle English Ale (DCL Yeast #S-04) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Temperature Mash, 1 Step
Total Grain Weight: 4.80 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temp Step Time
Saccharification Add 14.23 L of water at 71.6 C 66.0 C 60 min
Mash Out Add 6.70 L of water at 98.6 C 75.6 C 2 min



Any comments would be appreciated.


Cheers,
Wrenny