Beginners Biab Setup With Optional Extras

[drireech]

Gday,

I've been trolling around AHB forums for ages trying to make up my mind as to how to jump into all-grain brewing. I think I'm almost there but would like some feedback on my ideas.

Firstly I have some conditions which must be met:

Must be able to be used indoors and must fit in the space about the size of a washing machine.

Other than that I don't have any other restrictions.

The all-in-one brewery like Braumeister looked ideal but the $5K price tag never made it past the keeper.

So I'm considering the following BIAB setup (bear in mind that metal working skills are nonexistent and will have to be outsourced)

A 70L Kettle from beerbelly
with a 3600W element (with appropriate RCD)
A screen fitted above element to protect bag (and act as a hop screen)
Tap fitted beneath screen

and to feed the inner tech fetish

Temp probe with temp mate controller to control the heating element. I'm thinking welded bracket from the rim of the pot with adjustable height setting for the probe which should poke into the centre of the liquid (grain). This could be optional, but whilst the
Christmas spirit has opened the purse strings a tad I might as well have a go.

I would appreciate any ideas and feedback

Cheer
Drireech

 

[Bribie G]

Sounds like a plan. Just remember that you have to hoist the bag and, if your kettle is going to be sitting at a height - so that you can drain out of tap into a nochill cube or via a chiller, then you really will need some sort of skyhook at ceiling level, or at just over head - height. During the boil you'll need a good source of ventilation as well.
If you want to go less expensive, I find that passive lagging of the kettle using doonah whatever only leads to a 1 or 2 degree temp drop during mashing so you don't necessarily need screens or temp controllers. And you might look at a hopsock.

 

[Adamt]

If you are lookin at Beerbelly as a source, I would give them a call or email. They do a lot off custom work and mght already have a design or be able to tell you what is possible.

 

[drireech]

Sounds like a plan. Just remember that you have to hoist the bag and, if your kettle is going to be sitting at a height - so that you can drain out of tap into a nochill cube or via a chiller, then you really will need some sort of skyhook at ceiling level, or at just over head - height. During the boil you'll need a good source of ventilation as well.
If you want to go less expensive, I find that passive lagging of the kettle using doonah whatever only leads to a 1 or 2 degree temp drop during mashing so you don't necessarily need screens or temp controllers. And you might look at a hopsock.

Cheers.

The chosen resting place (and the reason for the size restriction) has an "I" Beam directly above and a window next to it. I intend to nochill so a bench height timber stand with storage drawers etc should accommodate me.

 

[drireech]

If you are lookin at Beerbelly as a source, I would give them a call or email. They do a lot off custom work and mght already have a design or be able to tell you what is possible.

I think judging by beerbelly's reputation and constant praise on this site, that the decision is a no brainer and I'll be intouch very soon, just fishing for feedback/better ideas/educated comments first

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I think 70L is an awkward size for a BIAB kettle

Assuming you are going to stick with stock BIAB and not muck about with extra vessels or sparging.. then 70 is bigger than you really need for single batches, and a little smaller than ideal for double batches.

For single batches - I would go with a 50 or perhaps 60L kettle, the 60 if you are planning on doing strong beers regularly.

For doubles - I would say an 80L kettle is a better choice

3600W element ... nice, but you need a special outlet for that kind of grunt. Do you have one? I personally think that for single batches, 2400W is more than sufficient. Especially because you can keep insulation on the kettle while it boils. For doubles... maybe you need stronger, but I reckon 2400W would still get you there if you weren't worried about it taking a bit of time to get to the boil.

Temp controller - what for? Its more or less only going to be of significant use to you for heating your mash water and stopping it at temp. You pretty much aren't going to get a good result from trying to leave it on to maintain your mash temperatures. Active heat in a mash tun needs agitation or recirculation of wort - otherwise all you do is heat the bejeezus out of the mash close to the element and get terrible uneven temperatures through the tun. What your controller says - will have very little to do with what the actual temperature in various parts of the really is.

My recommendation would be for a different sized pot & a 2400W over the side immersion element (which I feel is a far more versatile choice than a fixed element). Oh and if you do decide to have a temp controller, also get yourself a cheap timer, so you can set the water heating while you are still at work or still in bed. The its ready to install your bag and mash in as soon as you walk into your brewery. Saves a bunch of time.

Good luck with it no matter which way you go.

TB

 

[PistolPatch]

I think 70L is an awkward size for a BIAB kettle

drireech, I have just written a post in this thread backing Thirsty Boy's advice 100%. The thread is called, "Limitations of BIAB," and would be worthwhile for you to read as it also gives you a very good retailer in your vicinity.

In this thread, I am unfortunately going to disagree with Dan. (Sorry Thirsty :mellow as I think a 70lt pot is actually ideal and Thirsty won't mind me saying I have a lot more experience with 23 and 46 lt batch BIAB brewing than he does though he is the expert in mini BIAB batches - something I have no experience at.

There are a heap of compromises on any kettle size or shape you decide on. I have spent countless hours thinking and deciding on what I would recommend to a new brewer. The end result is a 70lt pot.

This pot will give you no worries on a single-batch and will just manage a double-batch. I usually double batch and I have 2 70 lt pots. I have been offered swaps for other pots (larger and smaller) and have always declined.

Every pot/kettle has advantages and disadvantages. I started out as a traditional brewer (3 vessel), started BIABing with a 70lt pot and quite some time later chose, after a lot of thought, to buy another 70lt pot.

What does that tell you?

I now often, nearly always, brew two double batches easily and simultaneously.

That's pretty cool I reckon!
Pat

 

[Scruffy]

You can just - and i mean just, get a double out of a 60l. Then there's always adding a bit of water after the boil, there's always a way...

 

[PistolPatch]

Too true Scruffy!

With my 70lt. I recently discovered I could BIAB a double-batch with no water addition. It's a scary thing as the mash/liquor water is about a cm from the top.

Done a few now and am not so worried. It's not as though it is going to boil over on a mash!!!

And as you say, adding top up water is not a sin. I have never brewed a bad beer or tasted one that has used top up water so WT?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

drireech, I have just written a post in this thread backing Thirsty Boy's advice 100%. The thread is called, "Limitations of BIAB," and would be worthwhile for you to read as it also gives you a very good retailer in your vicinity.

In this thread, I am unfortunately going to disagree with Dan. (Sorry Thirsty :mellow as I think a 70lt pot is actually ideal and Thirsty won't mind me saying I have a lot more experience with 23 and 46 lt batch BIAB brewing than he does though he is the expert in mini BIAB batches - something I have no experience at.

There are a heap of compromises on any kettle size or shape you decide on. I have spent countless hours thinking and deciding on what I would recommend to a new brewer. The end result is a 70lt pot.

This pot will give you no worries on a single-batch and will just manage a double-batch. I usually double batch and I have 2 70 lt pots. I have been offered swaps for other pots (larger and smaller) and have always declined.

Every pot/kettle has advantages and disadvantages. I started out as a traditional brewer (3 vessel), started BIABing with a 70lt pot and quite some time later chose, after a lot of thought, to buy another 70lt pot.

What does that tell you?

I now often, nearly always, brew two double batches easily and simultaneously.

That's pretty cool I reckon!
Pat

Not arguing Pat - but questions and reasons.

If you know you are mostly going to do 46L Batches... Still the 70L or a bigger one? 'Cause thats what I mean. Not that 70 is no good, but that it's not ideal if you are always doing doubles. If you are right on the brink, then it limits you if you want a double of higher gravity. 70 will do of course.. but 80 must give you a little more flexibility. I know the few double batches I have done have been in a 76L pot and they were pretty close to the brink for fairly standard beers. I wouldn't have wanted smaller. Is it a money thing? I absolutely see that 70 is "enough" if the difference in price is an issue - but why be on the brink when you could have room to move?

If you know you are never going to do doubles... why the need for 70L? You are basically never going to need a pot that big for singles. 50 or 60 is plenty. 40 is enough, 50 is extra and 60 is a luxury model with built in minbar - why the need for an extra 10 more on top of that??

I sort of look at it like a mid sized car - I bought one - thought I would get a little of the comfort of a big car but with the economy and city friendliness of a small car. But what I got instead was a car with not quite enough leg room that is still a pain in the arse around town.

So is 70 your recommended pot because its a good "all purpose" vessel, or is it more specific than that?? I am interested in your line of reasoning. I don't want to be recommending the wrong thing to people.

Dan

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

I'm fairly certain that Thirsty Boy is referring to a 76litre pot with which I have some familiarity.

If, when you say 'double batches' you mean enough to fill two cornelius kegs, that is one thing. If you mean 30 750ml bottles of beer that is quite another.

If you're making a Southern English Brown Ale or a Best Bitter, that is quite different to making an Imperial Porter or an IIIIIIIPA.

I find my pot to be perfectly fine for making two cornelius kegs of Best Bitter, but there will be spillage if you try to mash a double batch of a big beer in a 70-ish litre pot.

I like my pot because I never have boil-overs when single-batch brewing. It covers my four-ring burner adequately. It was cheap (due to exceptional circumstances). If I was setting out to buy another pot for frequent double batches (of any size/gravity) I would probably buy a bigger pot again, but then I would have a pot that was (IMO) too big for single batches of almost anything.

I'm perfectly happy with my own personal compromise.

 

[drireech]

Thanks all for the feedback.

I think I'll stick with simple systems to start with.

A 80l pot (double brews sound ideal as I have limited brewing time)
2400w or 3000w element depending on availability and price.
A removable screen and tap for ease of decanting into cubes.
Bag and hop sock, stainless ruler and thermometer

I will check with MHB lunch today and have already emailed beerbelly for prices.

Another member has offered to let me look in on his BIAB brewing this weekend, so if all goes well I may be running some test brews prior to christmas.

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

2400w or 3000w element depending on availability and price.

A single 2400W element will do a 'Single Batch' just fine. Two such elements will bring a 'Double Batch' up to boil quicker, but I got used to turning one off when things got to the boil.

In the house where I was brewing electrically, I had 20-Amp breakers on all my electricity circuits (standard 10-Amp GPOs) and I plugged each Over-The-Side heater into a separate circuit via specially-made heavy-duty extension cords. It didn't cost much and remains (to my mind) a superior way to brew over gas as I now do. You do need to have RCDs on all electrical inputs, though, to ensure you get to enjoy your beer.

I built a 'Pilot Plant' which worked fabulously until I installed a fixed element into it. At that point, it became a much less flexible pot because it could not be used over a gas flame. I can't use it now and gave it away.

I think that the resale value of used brew pots (in decreasing order) would be:

Big Pot with nothing installed;
Big Pot with tap installed;
Big Pot with tap and electrical element installed.

Simply because the number of people who would be interested in a pot decreases as you install stuff into it.

On balance I would advise against fixed elements unless you are certain you really, really (, really) want/need them.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

That will be fine - Pat and I are only discussing the finer points of suitability anyway - 80 will definitely work... if you went 70L you would still be able to do it.

If double batches are your intended "normal" brew.. the 2400W element is marginal. It'll probably be OK. A bigger one will be more suitable for the volume, but it will depend on whether you have the electric capability needed for it in your brew room. Or are willing to have one installed.

If you were to go with 2 x 2400W elements (I'm talking the immersion elements here because thats what I like the best) then you can plug them into two separate outlets to spread the load a bit - OR - If you go the bigger element, often in houses you might have a more "chunky" outlet for your stove, oven, airconditioner... then its a matter of buying an appropriately rated extension cord to get the power to your brewery.

You wont go wrong talking to MHB and/or Wayne from Beerbelly

Thirsty

 

[drireech]

I'm not worried about resale, I've been brewing kits for 14 years on and off and solidly for the last 3. I need to keep the brewing going to justify the cost of the bar/keg setup/fermenting fridge/etc/etc/etc and on top of that SWMBO loves the beer and encourages the hobby. It may also go on to form part of a 3 pot system when the space becomes available.

I have a 20amp circuit running the gear in my woodwork shed and will be able to get my beer sapping sparky neighbour to entend to the brew room.

My only question in do immersion heaters burn holes on the bag? how do you keep them away from the sides of the bag?

Cheers
Drireech

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

My only question in do immersion heaters burn holes on the bag? how do you keep them away from the sides of the bag?

By not allowing a hot element to touch the bag. The only time that your immersion heater will be in the pot and energised at the same time as the bag is when you're raising the temperature of a mash in progress. If you're doing this, you *will* be stirring the mash and maybe using the heater as the stirrer, and ensuring that bag and element do not meet.

My comments about resale value were primarily intended to illustrate usefulness and flexibility. I realise now that I didn't manage to convey that too well...

 

[Thirsty Boy]

By not allowing a hot element to touch the bag. The only time that your immersion heater will be in the pot and energised at the same time as the bag is when you're raising the temperature of a mash in progress. If you're doing this, you *will* be stirring the mash and maybe using the heater as the stirrer, and ensuring that bag and element do not meet.

My comments about resale value were primarily intended to illustrate usefulness and flexibility. I realise now that I didn't manage to convey that too well...

Its not so much that they dont meet - as that they dont meet and stay in contact for long. The element touches the bag when you are stirring with it... its just that it doesn't sit on any bit of it for very long, and it all being under the liquid anyway, it doesn't get anywhere near melting. You only need to worry about it when there is potential for bits of bag to be in contact with the element for a period of time - as it would with a fixed element, so with one of those, you do need a shield of some sort between the element and the bag.

If you look at the urn based systems - crown urns with a concealed element, all you have to do is make sure you give it a bit of a stir when the heat is on - the large surface area is equivalent to having a gas heat source under the pot. But in a Birko with an exposed element, you want it shielded so the bag cant get caught up or have a bit sit on the element.

Lucky you having a 20 amp circuit - thats as much electricity as my whole house put together has... sigh. So you are good to go with whichever option you choose. They'll all work. So its more a matter of good vs very good, than good vs bad.

TB

 

[troopa]

If you have the 20Amp circuit(Like me) then get the 3600w outlet wired in close to where you want to brew
Go talk to MHB as he will give you ideas on typically the best elements to looks for.. and even mention going for 2400w but heaps longer then your standard (I think it was somewhere upwards of 1.5 meters) for better heat transfer. If not the cheaper 3600w element like mine gets you close to a degree a minute (about 1.20min on a double batch)

On a similar note i would look at making a stand mounted to the pot with bottom mounted elements similar to a brewmiester with coil elements so you can make a false bottom over it
Allows you to still ramp temps up while the bags in the pot..

Quick edit... My "false bottom" is just a stainless coarse(4mm dia) holed thingy with a couple of legs
i remove it after each mash and then boil. I found it interrupted with the whirlpool and trub settling so a piece of coat hanger is used to retrieve it (remembering its after mash before boil and only 65 odd degrees so really not that hot

Tom

 

[PistolPatch]

So is 70 your recommended pot because its a good "all purpose" vessel, or is it more specific than that??

I reckon it's a great all-purpose vessell. It's a dream to do a single-batch - no chance of boil-overs etc. On double-batches, I am brewing recipes I know and like and that can handle top up water if needs be.

The evaporation rate for single brews is on the high side in the 70lt and of course this gets worse with 80-100lt vessells. This evaporation rate of the bigger vessells plus their weight and size, turns me off them a bit. For single batches, whilst a 50lt pot is big enough, I find it just a tad more uncomfortable to brew with - needs a closer eye on it.

I think you have nailed it with the term a good "all-purpose vessel." For me, I really see the 70lt as being an excellent pot to start with. The price differences between pot sizes are not huge and I'd hate to see someone buying a 50 and then realising 6 months later that they would like to brew double-batches or maybe do a brew with a mate and not being able to.

Not a very well-written answer I have given you here Dan, sorry. Hope it makes some sense though. Maybe I should have a beer to get the brain oiled?


Pat

 

[fergi]

what price are you guys paying for different size vessels, just curious.


fergi