Bavarian Weissbier Tips

[MHB]

Without Glucose (dextrose) yeast will follow a different pathway and it cant make isoamyl acetate.
The whole point of adding Glucose is to send the yeast down the banana pathway.
True, all the other factors you mentiond are important, but no glucose no banana.
Dextrins would be a whole other conversation.
Mark

 

[Osangar]

[/QUOTE]

Without Glucose (dextrose) yeast will follow a different pathway and it cant make isoamyl acetate.
The whole point of adding Glucose is to send the yeast down the banana pathway.
True,all the other factors you mentiond are important, but no glucose no banana.
Dextrins would be a whole other conversation.
Mark

fascinating; I've never come across this before.
ill add it to my list of potentials to try. although I'm getting terrific banana flavour in mine already (for 3068) and great clove (for Schneider) but more flavour can't hurt

 

[MHB]

There is a small amount of Glucose in any wort, the above is one way to get more
Here is a good read
Brewing Bavarian Weissbier
Lots of good info
Mark

 

[Sidney Harbour-Bridge]

Too much yeast kills banana!
That’s about the only thing that comes to mind. To get more Banana you should be pitching at the low end of the recommended ale range (0.4-1.0M cells/mL/oP). A lot of home brewers translate this to mean underpitching which it isn’t. You could go a bit hotter 22-23oC.
I like to do this one with Weyermann Floor Malted Pilsner and German Wheat around 50/50, sometimes it’s a banana bomb sometimes a bit bland. This about the only beer I brew where the outcome is a bit random and I'll be buggered if I know why, just a temperamental yeast (maybe).
Mark

Big ups for doing that decoction, I had a chat with Dr. Bertram Sacher, and asked him, if he wasn’t brewing under the Reinheitsgebot would he just ad glucose and got back a ja in bold.
M

Checked my records this morning, looks like I made a 3 L starter for a 20l batch, I'll half that next time, do you think that will be small enough?

I've done a lot of decoctions this year, hefs get two and pilsners three, the joy in home brewing for me is the method as much as the result and I do enjoy my beer. I wanted to try this one as it's a bit strange because it doesn't boil the decoction, I presume all it does is create more glucose in the wort, rather than enhance malt flavor, it would be simpler to just add glucose but I like the idea of the Reinheitsgebot, it's a bit like brewing to style guidelines, it adds direction to my brewing

 

[MHB]

Agreed, done decoctions in the past and they are interesting if time consuming.

In this case, the decoction forms Maltose through Beta Amylase activity, then is returned to the main mash, where Maltase converts Maltose into 2 Glucose. Maltase is fully denatured over ~45oC so it rarely gets a play as it is denatured mostly by the time people mash in.
I have been thinking about another way to get to the same place.
If you mashed in somewhere in the 35-40oC range, ideally at a 6pH (optimum for maltase) and allowed it to sit for 12 hours or so. There should be enough activity from both the Amylases to make some maltose for the Maltase to chew on. Bit like the old overnight digestion brewing schedule.
From there just ramp to your normal mash regieme. Having a Braumeister will make this pretty easy. Set it in manual mode, mash in and leave overnight, in the morning adjust the pH and run your programmed mash.
Be interesting to see how much goes into solution during the overnight digestion, and of course how much glucose there is in the wort. Now I just need a simple way to measure glucose.
Mark

 

[Cloud Surfer]

One of my favourite beers
Having a look at the website from Weihenstephan they say, OG 12.7oP or 1.0508 (1.051), alcohol 5.7% from which we can deduce an FG of 1.0103 (well if you can measure the 0.0003) call it 1.010

Apparent attenuation is 79.7% (call it 80%) which is a bit higher than you would expect from say W 3068. Assuming your wort isn’t super fermentable adding a bit (<5%) of dextrose shouldn’t have much effect on where the beer pulls up, it will have a big effect on the banana aroma/flavour given you don’t overpitch or brew way too cool.

I just measured the FG of Weihenstephaner Hefe Weissbier and got 1.010. At 5.4% ABV, that’s an OG of 1.051. Exactly the numbers you have. That was a surprise to me as it has the mouthfeel of a slightly higher gravity beer.

While my Weissbier is very nice, I would still like to get it closer to the Weihenstephaner, so I’ll brew clone #2 in a few weeks with a few tweaks to the first attempt.

 

[Sidney Harbour-Bridge]

Agreed, done decoctions in the past and they are interesting if time consuming.

In this case, the decoction forms Maltose through Beta Amylase activity, then is returned to the main mash, where Maltase converts Maltose into 2 Glucose. Maltase is fully denatured over ~45oC so it rarely gets a play as it is denatured mostly by the time people mash in.
I have been thinking about another way to get to the same place.
If you mashed in somewhere in the 35-40oC range, ideally at a 6pH (optimum for maltase) and allowed it to sit for 12 hours or so. There should be enough activity from both the Amylases to make some maltose for the Maltase to chew on. Bit like the old overnight digestion brewing schedule.
From there just ramp to your normal mash regieme. Having a Braumeister will make this pretty easy. Set it in manual mode, mash in and leave overnight, in the morning adjust the pH and run your programmed mash.
Be interesting to see how much goes into solution during the overnight digestion, and of course how much glucose there is in the wort. Now I just need a simple way to measure glucose.
Mark

OK I've brewed my hef again with the single decoction, added only 500ml of my starter this time, it still started fermenting within 8 hours but the fridge smelt like it was full of bananas, samples have a good amount of banana. Fermentation temperature was 22. OG 1.048 FG 1.010.

Going to bottle today, will use some left over wort and invert some sugar to make up to the required amount as it is supposedly glucose and fructose. It should be at its peak for my Bavarian breakfast on Melbourne cup day.

I'll have to try the overnight method, how close to 45 can you go before the maltase starts to denature?

 

[me14]

Thanks guys. Just tapped a weiss made using tips here. My previous/first attempt last year was underwhelming, barely any banana and no body but looking back I overpitched for sure.
This one is perfect. Did a partial mash (single infusion) with roughly 40% from LME and 5% from dextrose pitching a single pack of W3068 into 20L of wort. I was hoping the LME would give it a bit of body and also help overcome capacity issues as I usually brew to fill a 9.5L corny. As for the banana flavour, the changes from first batch were the pitch rate & dextrose so one or both of those has really fixed that.

 

[GrumpyPaul]

there used to be a guy on here Les the @Weizguy who liked his wheat beers - dont think he is around so much any more.

He used to recommend a step mash profile.

Some good tips in this thread Tips for improving a wheat beer

 

[duncbrewer]

Now I just need a simple way to measure glucose.
Mark

Find a diabetic and use their testing kit on a wort sample, should work.

 

[Westheimer]

This is a German recipe that I translated a few years ago. It's my go to Hefeweizen that I don't like to run out of.
It's also by far the most popular one on the the German recipe site.
Give it a go and let me know what you think. If you like maximum banana flavours, ferment at 22°C, otherwise 20°C will give a more balanced flavour with clove coming through as well.
Cheers

https://share.brewfather.app/COdhKfby0mhjmp

 

[Osangar]

there used to be a guy on here Les the @Weizguy who liked his wheat beers - dont think he is around so much any more.

He used to recommend a step mash profile.

Some good tips in this thread Tips for improving a wheat beer

step mash for the winner for me - there is no replacement, especially if its wyermann malts being used.

 

[Osangar]

I'm obsessed with Weizen; both white and dark. there is so much to enjoy with malt and yeast flavours. and (as an older chap) it's nice to brew a tasty full flavour beer that can be made a bit lower in ABV (if you like). my own go from around 5 and down to 4. perhaps not to so ABV

I enjoy the 'clove' flavours of Schneider yeast and if you can't be arsed growing some from a bottle, the wlp351 is close (as in the same ballpark) but not right on the mark; get Schneider yeast it is a winner and lasts ages. As for banana the classic 3068/300 yeast is the go, also the Munich classic dry yeast is a winner; but with each starting at 18, going to 20 gives the best result. I've tried each many times and the 3068 is the best but the others are really close

interestingly - as I save yeast as a slurry and re-pitch, I've not found pitch rates a factor. PH is, and I'm blessed to have soft water in Singapore so it's a good start for me.

my variations to date that result in the best beer are - step mash (including a dough in) it takes ages but the results are impressive. fermentation temp variation and ph.