Bad Taste Coming From Kettle

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nabs478

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G'day,

I have been narrowing down a bad taste that is coming from my brewery somewhere and I have found that is always and only present when I use a specific kettle. I have a system that does about 150L in a batch, and the kettle I built for that system is a stainless steel 44 gallon drum. I have been trying brews using various 50L kettle and boiling different batches in different kettles and it always has a bad taste when I use the big 44 gallon drum, but never when I use the small ones.

In the big kettle I have the following...

2x 4.8kW Copper elements (like the one sused in hot water systems)
1 Stainless pick up tube, which has an elbow on the end in the middile fo the kettle to pick up wort from above the bottom and a ball valve attached on the outside.
1 drain plug, which is a 1/2in stainless socket welded to the bottom of the kettle with a ball valve attached.
1 Sight guage, made from stainless, rubber and glass.
1 Removable temperature probe which screws into another 1/2in stainless socket.

Since having this problem I have been dismantling the sight guage, all ball valves and cleaning them, along with running a pipe cleaner down the pick up tube and cleaning the inside of the kettle with a scourer and a hose.

The only thing I have noticed that I think may be causing the problem is that the elements get this thing layer of white and black stuff stuck on them. Its very hard to get off until it gets really thick then it breaks off in some places and starts to reform again. I have broken some of this off and tasted it and it has no taste, just this kind fo gritty texture. I assume anyone else who uses an electric kettle probably would have seen this before and considering some commcercial breweries use electric powered kettles, this either should not be a problem, or there exists a good method of cleaning it.

Can anyone help with some suggestions?
 
Pip,

I had a problem recently where I had a run of about 8 brews that just tasted....wrong...couldn't pinpoint the taste but it was certainly something that shouldn't have been there.

After trying everything I could think off I bought some PBW and gave the kettle (30L urn) a good soaking.

The black slimy sludge that came from the ball valve after less than a minute soaking was just plain filthy.

So I gave the kettle an overnight soak and even more of this sludge came out and I was left with a very shiny looking urn.

Since that soak my beers are back to a level I'm very happy with so have to assume that PBW did the trick and the problem was what was lurking in the ball valve.

Hope you find the problem.

cliffo
 
I just found out that it is likely that these types of elements are usually coated in something to stop the copper from touching the water in the hot water system. Not really sure about this...anyone got any ideas?

I should also say the flavour tastes like some contaminant, perhaps similar to a mettalic taste of residual chemical or something - muggy and/or metallic.
 
G'day,

I have been narrowing down a bad taste that is coming from my brewery somewhere and I have found that is always and only present when I use a specific kettle. I have a system that does about 150L in a batch, and the kettle I built for that system is a stainless steel 44 gallon drum. I have been trying brews using various 50L kettle and boiling different batches in different kettles and it always has a bad taste when I use the big 44 gallon drum, but never when I use the small ones.

In the big kettle I have the following...

2x 4.8kW Copper elements (like the one sused in hot water systems)
1 Stainless pick up tube, which has an elbow on the end in the middile fo the kettle to pick up wort from above the bottom and a ball valve attached on the outside.
1 drain plug, which is a 1/2in stainless socket welded to the bottom of the kettle with a ball valve attached.
1 Sight guage, made from stainless, rubber and glass.
1 Removable temperature probe which screws into another 1/2in stainless socket.

Since having this problem I have been dismantling the sight guage, all ball valves and cleaning them, along with running a pipe cleaner down the pick up tube and cleaning the inside of the kettle with a scourer and a hose.

The only thing I have noticed that I think may be causing the problem is that the elements get this thing layer of white and black stuff stuck on them. Its very hard to get off until it gets really thick then it breaks off in some places and starts to reform again. I have broken some of this off and tasted it and it has no taste, just this kind fo gritty texture. I assume anyone else who uses an electric kettle probably would have seen this before and considering some commcercial breweries use electric powered kettles, this either should not be a problem, or there exists a good method of cleaning it.

Can anyone help with some suggestions?
Kind of a bad situation with your build up on the elements.This will act as a insulator therefore dumbing down your Kw.I have only seen one commercial Micro brewery that used drop in Electric kettle elements, they would clean this in acid, dont know what type or strength.As for the taste I dont know either.
GB
 
Powdered Brewery Wash, I get mine from Craftbrewer.

PBW

Can't praise this stuff highly enough.

cliffo
 
I just found out that it is likely that these types of elements are usually coated in something to stop the copper from touching the water in the hot water system. Not really sure about this...anyone got any ideas?

I should also say the flavour tastes like some contaminant, perhaps similar to a mettalic taste of residual chemical or something - muggy and/or metallic.

Hi Pip,

Roy at TWOC home brew shop in Perth sells copper elements for boilers so I'd think your copper elements are okay, it might be the metal that the elements are mounted in coming in contact with your liquid. The one in the link below is mounted in brass. Maybe something to look at.

http://www.homebru.com.au/index.php?main_p...products_id=626

Cheers
 
Pip,I feel your pain mate,have been fighting a loosing battle since last August against various bugs.

Unfortunately for me I can't pinpoint a particular piece of gear.I have replaced nearly all equipment cold side of kettle and much hot side as well.

Presently re-plumbing 3 piece valves and easier to clean parts,if this fails I may give up.I love brewing but wasting 4 hrs for 0 is seriously doing my head in.

Hope you find your solution mate.
 
AFAIAA, true stainless drums are hard to come by and cost an arm and a leg. Are you sure it isn't more mild steel than anything else (similar to a vegetable oil drum)? Testing for various iron ions (!) is conceptually straightforward, but it usually involves looking out for a red-brown precipitate. Could be a bit tricky with beer. A simpler test might be to dump some boiling, appropriately acidified water in the drum, let it cool down, then taste. Maybe remove the elements for the sake of isolating the problem. Actually, I have boiled up with shiny copper poking through stainless-plated elements, and it is not a problem. My various copper manifolds also usually wind up shiny after mashing/boiling with no ill effects. Scorching is a bigger issue with elements, but is an obvious thing to spot.

I must say that some of the claims for PBW are starting to intrigue me, given that it doesn't seem to be much more than oxy-bleach augmented with some silicates and phosphates. I would absolutely love a de-scorcher for recovering from those unfortunate accidents that seem to happen from time to time, in both the kitchen and the brewery.
 
PIP,
I had brass ball valves on my fermenters, after a long time in using them the brass would oxidise leaving a foul taste behind and would taint the whole brew.
To sum it up this maybe happening to you after boiling and with the different chemical used for cleaning would speed the oxidisation up if this is not the case try your elements for heating
kind regards
rodney
 
Finding the problem is always the hardest part! now that you know what it is, address it. Boil in something different I say.

Cheers.
 
To clean the calcium of the elements boil some white vinegar in it, and then let it sit for an hour. Ensure you cover the elements. If you have too dialute it down a bit but the stronger the better.

Then you will need to boil at least 2 batches of water to eliminate any vinegar taste. You'll also have a clean bottom of your kettle.

QldKev
 
Thanks for the info guys.

Mukanic - I am sure thatn these are proper stainless. I bought them on ebay from a winery, who was using them as conditioning tanks. I have drilled and welded them heaps and it behaves just like other stainless items I have. I am also interested in PBW, although its action sounds mor elike an acidic cleaner, I have read that it has alkilis...I guess the proof is in the cleaning!

Rodney - I canned all brass things in my set-up about a year ago from paranoia. I would reccomended everyone that is having trouble with off flavours do the same.

Bear09 - I actully have another of these SS drums, and I am thinking of converting it into a gas powered kettle. There are two problems with that though. 1. I wont actually understand the problem and the solution to it so if it happens again, I will probably not recognise it. 2. I would have to buy and reweld all the fittings onto it, which, while I could be bothered doing it, it would probably be cheaper and less work to clean the one I have.

QldKev - I will try that. Unfortunately, to cover the elements I need about 30-40L...quite a lot of vinegar! I will perhaps try diluting it 50/50 with water and see if that helps.

I will let you guys know about any progress.
 
I must say that some of the claims for PBW are starting to intrigue me, given that it doesn't seem to be much more than oxy-bleach augmented with some silicates and phosphates.

Its mainly sodium percarbonate, but it is what the mainly is not that kicks it along. (Beer is mainly water as an example).
I have used it and it is great, you must follow the directions (use it hot etc). Remember, it is primarily a cleaner, but you have to clean before you can sanitize!!
Think of it like beer, we all use similar ingredients and similar processes but some beers are kick-arse and some just crap,its all about balance of ingredients and to a lesser extent process. No doubt generic napisan augmented with some metasilicates, surfactants etc will do a reasonable job, but kick arse..I doubt it.
Where anyone interested in making their own PBW here are some hints, perhaps not the actual composition or use but a signpost.

While not wishing to be bound by any theory, it is believed that the peroxygen compound and chelate react synergistically to remove most foreign deposits. The peroxygen compound releases oxygen molecules which break down bonds in the foreign deposit. The chelate reacts with and ties up dissolved metals in the water which would otherwise react with and neutralize the oxygen. It is further believed that the metasilicate and builder peptize or emulsify (e.g. solubilize) proteins or fat. The metasilicate and builder together provide sufficient alkalinity to sopanify the high levels of fat in many foreign deposits.

The peroxygen compound preferably includes a perborate or a percarbonate and more preferably a percarbonate. The perborate or percarbonate can be complexed with a metal selected from the group including sodium, lithium, calcium, potassium, and boron. The cleaning composition preferably includes from about 10% to about 40% by weight, and more preferably from about 25% to about 40% by weight, of the peroxygen compound. The metasilicate is preferably an anhydrous metasilicate complexed with a metal selected from the group including sodium and potassium. The metasilicate can be replaced with a sesquisilicate. The cleaning composition preferably includes from about 10 to about 30% by weight of the metasilicate.

The chelate is preferably a derivative of a carboxylic or phosphonic acid. More preferably, the chelate is selected from the group consisting of EDTA, NTA, and other derivatives of a carboxylic acid or a derivative of a phosphonic acid, such as poly(alkylphosphonic acid), (e.g., sold under the trademark
ACUSOL 505ND) . The EDTA acid is preferably in the form of a salt, such as a sodium salt ("ETDA-Na4 ") or a potassium salt, as the salt is more water soluble than the acid. The cleaning composition preferably includes from about 3 to about 8% by weight of the chelate.

It is preferred that the peroxygen compound, metasilicate, and chelate are all salts having the same cation. More preferably, all of the salts in the cleaning composition have the same cation. The preferred cation is sodium or potassium.

The builder preferably includes at least a sulfate or a carbonate and more preferably a sodium carbonate, sodium sesquicarbonate, sodium sulfate, and sodium bicarbonate. The carbonate is preferably a hydrated carbonate such as trona. The cleaning composition preferably includes from about 16 to about 75% by weight of the builder.

The ratios of the various components are important parameters in many applications. Preferably, the ratio by weight of the peroxygen compound to the chelator ranges from about 7:1 to 3:1 and more preferably is about 5:1. The preferred ratio by weight of the surfactant to the metasilicate preferably ranges from about 10 to 1 and preferably is about 5:1.

The cleaning composition can further include a surfactant, such as a wetting agent, emulsifying agent, or dispersing agent. The surfactant must be functional in an alkaline solution. Suitable surfactants are nonionic, anionic and amphoteric surfactants. Preferred nonionic surfactants include octylphenoxy-polyethoxy-ethanol (e.g., sold under the trademark TRITON X-100), nonyl phenoxy ethyleneoxy ethanol (e.g., sold under the trademark IGEPAL CO730), pol,234yoxy ethoxylated ethanol (e.g., sold under the trademark RENEX ZO), glycol fatty esters (e.g., sold under the trademark HALLCO-376-N), fatty acid alkylanolamid (e.g., sold under the trademark ALKAMIDE 2110), cetyldimethyl amine oxide (e.g., sold under the trademark AMMONYX CO), aliphatic polyether (e.g., sold under the trademark ANTAROX LF-344), polyethylenated alkyl glycol amide (e.g., sold under the trademark ANTAROX G-200), fatty alcohol polyether (e.g., sold under the trademark AROSURE 63-PE-16), polyoxyethylene sorbitol esters of mixed fatty and resin acids (e.g., sold under the trademark ATLAS G-1234), modified oxyethylated straight-chain alcohol (e.g., sold under the trademark RENEX 648), modified oxyethoxylated straight-chain alcohols (e.g. sold under the trademark PLURAFACRA,ZO), alkylaryl polyether (e.g., sold under the trademark TRITON CF10), trifunctional polyoxyalkylene glycols (e.g., sold under the trademark PLURADOT HA-410), diethylene glycol dioleate, polyethylene glycol recinaleate, polyethylene glycol dioleate, tridecyl alcohol, nonylphenol, and ethylene oxide condensation products that are based on propylene oxide-propylene glycol (e.g., sold under the trademark PLURONIC L-61). Preferred anionic, surfactants include ethoxylated (3 moles) phosphate ester (e.g., sold under the trademark TRITON QS-44), sodium sulfate of 2 ethyl-a-hexanol (e.g., sold under the trademark TERGITOL 08), sodium petroleum sulfonate (e.g., sold under the trademark PETRONATE K), sodium alkyl naphthahalene sulfonate (e.g., sold under the trademark PETRO AR, SELLOGEN K, NEKAL BX-78, ALKANOL B), dioctyl ester of sodium sulfosuccinic acid (e.g., sold under the trademark ABRESOL OT), sodium alkylaryl sulfonate (e.g., sold under the trademark AHCOWETANS), sodium salt of sulfated alkylphenoxy poly(ethyleneoxy) ethanol (e.g., sold under the trademark ALIPAL EO-526), sodium methyl n-oleyl-taurate (e.g., sold under the trademark AMATER G T), alkyl polyphosphate (e.g., sold under the trademark ATCOWET C2), sodium lauryl sulfate (e.g., sold under the trademark AVIROL 101), sodium N-methyl-N-tall oil acid taurate (e.g., sold under the trademark IGEPON TK-32), lauric alkyloamine condensate (e.g., sold under the trademark NOPCOGEN 14-L), fatty alcohol sulfate modified (e.g. sold under the trademark RICHOLOL 4940) and modified diethanolamides of fatty acids (e.g., sold under the trademark SHERCOMID). Preferred amphoteric surfactants include disodium N-tallow betamino dipropionate (e.g., sold under the trademark DERIPHATE 154), sodium derivative of dicarboxylic caprylic acid (e.g., sold under the trademark MIRANOL J2M, letithin (e.g., sold under the trademark CENTROL CA, LA), lauryl ampholytic (syndet) (e.g., sold under the trademark SCHERCOTERIC BASE 156), carboxylic acid derivatives of substituted imidazolines (e.g., sold under the trademark MONATERIC), complex coco betaine (e.g., sold under the trademark CARSONAM 3 AND 3147), fatty sulfobetaine (e.g., sold under the trademark LONZAINE CS), dicarboxylic coconut derivative triethanolamine (e.g., sold under the trademark MIRANOL TEA), dicarboxylic octoic derivative sodium salt (e.g. sold under the trademark MIRANOL JEM), dicarboxylic myristic derivative diethanolamine (e.g., sold under the trademark MIRANOL M2M-DEM), dicarboxylic myristic derivative monoethanolamine (e.g., sold under the trademark MIRANOL M2M-MEA), dicarboxylic myristic derivative sodium salt (e.g., sold under the trademark MIRANOL M2M-SF), dicarboxylic captic derivative diethanolamine (e.g., sold under the trademark MIRANOL S2M-DEA), and dicarboxylic capric derivative triethanolamine (e.g., sold under the trademark MIRANOL S2M-TEA). Preferably, the cleaning composition contains from about 0 to about 8% by weight, and more preferably from about 0.5 to about 6% by weight of the surfactant.

The cleaning composition can include a phosphate to help the chelate bind up free metals and keep soils in suspension. The preferred phosphate is sodium or potassium tripolyphosphate. The cleaning composition preferably includes from about 5 to about 25% by weight of the phosphate.

The cleaning composition can also include a gelling agent to provide a gel formulation for applying the cleaning composition to soiled objects. The cleaning ability of the cleaning composition is facilitated by the adherence properties of the gel. For instance, such gel formulations are particularly useful for thick charred organic buildups on barbecue grills. Preferred gelling agents include carboxymethyl cellulose, hydroxymethylcellulose and modified polyacrylamide. The preferred concentration of the gelling agent in the cleaning composition ranges from about 6 to 12% by weight.

PS..PBW kicks arse.

K
 

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