Are lagers really worth the bother?

[peas_and_corn]

I'd imagine it would limit your malt selection dramatically. Most specialty malts contain colour.

This, and really pale pilsner malt is a recent invention, plus needing more malt character to go along with the yeast character

 

[fraser_john]

So I guess you make a shitload of lager in winter, lager it for 3-6 months, for summer?

Fermentation chamber/fridge hasn't cost me much, and I get to brew whatever I want, whenever I want.

No not really, two or three max during winter and I really don't "lager" it in the traditional sense at 2-3c. Bring it up to 20c for a week to let the yeast clean up any left overs and then just leave it sitting around in a glass carboy on the cold floor. I do sometimes keg one and leave it in the serving fridge for a few weeks before serving so guess that could be considered a traditional lagering.

 

[klangers]

I wonder, on a massive commercial basis, if there is any cost benefit to brewing lagers -- if brewing ales was cheaper to do -- whether the marketing engine of CUB et al would have much trouble convincing the punters to drink it.

The big breweries do not lager (ie store cold on yeast) their beers. They filter the **** out of them to give a completely clear beer. When using these methods the difference in production cost is negligible.

 

[pipsyboy]

Ok guys.

The lager has been in my fermenting fridge for a couple of years now.

Took 4+ days for the fermentation to start, left it about another 7 days at 11 degrees then upped the temp to 18 (in 24hrs) and left it there for 3 days which brings us up to now. I'm going to use one of the methods suggested above which says to drop the temp to about zero and leave for 3-4 days. Do I do this in primary or can I rack to a cube? if it has to stay in primary then that will take up so much room in my keg fridge that I won't be able to get a keg in there and this will defo be my first and last 'true' lager.

 

[panzerd18]

The lager has been in my fermenting fridge for a couple of years now.

:unsure:

 

[TimT]

When you think that Lager is harder to make costs more (energy) and takes longer, there must be some reason why we prefer it.

I'd be interested in finding out more about that, Mark.

I'm still not sure why lager took off in such a big way through the mid-to late 19th century and throughout the 20th century. Flavour and beer quality explain something about its popularity but not everything. It must have been a combination of other factors too - publicity, the involvement of big beer companies that had the resources to brew something as demanding as a lager and so differentiate themselves from smaller brewers who may only have been able to do ales, even some pro-German snobbery (the British royal family is German, which was accepted - even celebrated - prior to the 1st world war).

 

[TheWiggman]

Took 4+ days for the fermentation to start, left it about another 7 days at 11 degrees then upped the temp to 18 (in 24hrs) and left it there for 3 days which brings us up to now. I'm going to use one of the methods suggested above which says to drop the temp to about zero and leave for 3-4 days. Do I do this in primary or can I rack to a cube? if it has to stay in primary then that will take up so much room in my keg fridge that I won't be able to get a keg in there and this will defo be my first and last 'true' lager.

Can you confirm it's reached FG? 4 days is a long time to start, hope you haven't underpitched. If you have I'd be surprised if it's reached FG with a 5% brew in 10 days.
You can certainly rack into a cube but be careful of your techniques (i.e. sanitised, squirt with CO2, no splashing). The purpose of the 3-4 days at zero is to drop particles out of solution to the bottom of the FV or secondary. Up to you. I personally give it about 10 days at 3°C to drop the last few points for reasons which has been mentioned elsewhere on the forum. THEN cold crash, then store for 3 weeks in the beer fridge before drinking.

Sounds to me like you need a fermenting fridge

 

[pipsyboy]

Can you confirm it's reached FG? 4 days is a long time to start, hope you haven't underpitched. If you have I'd be surprised if it's reached FG with a 5% brew in 10 days.
You can certainly rack into a cube but be careful of your techniques (i.e. sanitised, squirt with CO2, no splashing). The purpose of the 3-4 days at zero is to drop particles out of solution to the bottom of the FV or secondary. Up to you. I personally give it about 10 days at 3°C to drop the last few points for reasons which has been mentioned elsewhere on the forum. THEN cold crash, then store for 3 weeks in the beer fridge before drinking.

Sounds to me like you need a fermenting fridge

I've got a fermenting fridge but it's a dead one and would struggle to get the temp low enough to lager.

I'm so pissed off with the whole process that I'm tempted to just cold crash for a few days and drink the bastard anyway no matter how *****. Learn from it (never again) and move on. For me it's just not worth the bother.

 

[Grott]

My take on this is whether you like/prefer lager and have the appropriate equipment/setup to achieve good results. I'm not one for lager and brew bitter styles and stouts. One thing though, many a newbie has attempted the lager (as that's what they like or was in the home brew kit) and the very disappointed result as deterred them from brewing again, so sad.
Cheers

 

[Blind Dog]

When you think that Lager is harder to make costs more (energy) and takes longer, there must be some reason why we prefer it.

I'd be interested in finding out more about that, Mark.

I'm still not sure why lager took off in such a big way through the mid-to late 19th century and throughout the 20th century. Flavour and beer quality explain something about its popularity but not everything. It must have been a combination of other factors too - publicity, the involvement of big beer companies that had the resources to brew something as demanding as a lager and so differentiate themselves from smaller brewers who may only have been able to do ales, even some pro-German snobbery (the British royal family is German, which was accepted - even celebrated - prior to the 1st world war).

Interesting link (no idea of provenance): http://www.germanbeerinstitute.com/history.html

English beer was also rapdily becoming paler at the same time (maybe as glass became ubiquitous making a clear, pale beer popular?). There are stories of German & Czech brewers visitng the UK to learn pale ale / malt making techniques and using that knowledge to brew the first pale lagers.

No idea why crap like Bud, VB and (IMO the worst of the lot) Carling Black Label became near ubiquitous though

 

[CrookedFingers]

My take on this is whether you like/prefer lager and have the appropriate equipment/setup to achieve good results. I'm not one for lager and brew bitter styles and stouts. One thing though, many a newbie has attempted the lager (as that's what they like or was in the home brew kit) and the very disappointed result as deterred them from brewing again, so sad.
Cheers

Tis true grotto.
A good mate of mine did just this, no sanitation at all, dump the kit in, add water and yeast. No temp control and it fermented on the bench in the shed right next to a window that got smashed by the afternoon sun !! hahahaa.
It was terrible, he didn't even bottle it.
Fortunately he is about to return to the fold….with much ear bashing from me about cleanliness !!


On topic though !.
I have never brewed a lager due to the time factor, but may just give these quicker methods a whirl.
Next winter I will brew one or two to lager and put away till summer.

 

[TheWiggman]

Shame to hear pipsyboy. I agree that I wouldn't attempt a lager without either very cold temps or a fridge. I have one bung fridge which is only used for ales. The method you're trying is 'advanced' I suppose, as you can make a decent lager without all the faffing about as long as you leave it for a long time.
I love me a good lager as much as a stout - in fact I have one of each on tap at the moment - and enjoy the hell out of them when done right. I think if you limit yourself to ales, you're missing out on a lot of different beer styles (and challenges) out there. That said, there are so many ale styles that it's not like you are really that limited.
Worth it? After half a day mowing a dusty lawn in 40°C heat, sweat beading off the brow with the BBQ sizzling... hell yeah it's worth it.

 

[Tahoose]

The only lager I did was at ambient temps with s-189.

100% pils with 30 IBUs of german hops.

By the time I finished the keg (3-4 Months) it was glorious, definitely hit its straps after about 8 weeks.

 

[pipsyboy]

Shame to hear pipsyboy. I agree that I wouldn't attempt a lager without either very cold temps or a fridge. I have one bung fridge which is only used for ales. The method you're trying is 'advanced' I suppose, as you can make a decent lager without all the faffing about as long as you leave it for a long time.
I love me a good lager as much as a stout - in fact I have one of each on tap at the moment - and enjoy the hell out of them when done right. I think if you limit yourself to ales, you're missing out on a lot of different beer styles (and challenges) out there. That said, there are so many ale styles that it's not like you are really that limited.
Worth it? After half a day mowing a dusty lawn in 40°C heat, sweat beading off the brow with the BBQ sizzling... hell yeah it's worth it.

Mate, it's more that I'm pissed off at how much it's tying up my equipment. I like a good lager as much as I like a good ale or stout.

I will definitely be making lagers, just not as involved as this one.

Anyway. Just took a reading and it was 1005. Guessing it hasn't got much farther to go. Og was 1032. It is as a fresh wort kit with no indication of starting or finishing grav.

 

[indica86]

The brulosophy method works very well.
I have tried it and brewed a cracker of a clean and crisp Saaz / Citra lager. Also a Julebryg.
The first is long gone with the Julebryg awaiting Christmas.

 

[TimT]

No idea why crap like Bud, VB and (IMO the worst of the lot) Carling Black Label became near ubiquitous though

Another piece of the puzzle is the mass market technique of commodification - taking out all the offensive parts of a product to appeal to more consumers. Hop flavour and smell is kind of divisive - so, cut back on the hops. Esters don't always appeal, and can be unpredictable - so lagers, with their low, clean fermentations, are preferred. Also, the attempt to appeal to different markets - soft drink (hence the high carbonation and the lack of body in megabrews - I remember reading how at one point an American company tried to perfect a translucent beer. Beer without the beer!) and wine (CUB research back in the 70s found that one of their drinks - can't remember which one - appealed to women in the suburbs because it was seen as light and like wine, good for serving at dinners).

So, make the product more bland and generic so it can be all things to all people - or as close to that as possible.

 

[menoetes]

Too true, too true.

Make the lager as bland and inoffensive as white bread and maybe it will be just as popular - it's a screwy idea but you can kinda see how the marketing department made their way to it. Well anyone who has had fresh homebaked bread will tell you just how crap generic sliced white is.

...and if you think I'm going OT think of that last sentence as a metaphor. h34r:

 

[Weizguy]

They are if you want to drink Oktoberfest, marzen, bock, doppelbock, pilsner, pilsener, dark lager, aussie lager, schwarzbier, baltic porter, weizenbock, helles or many other beer styles.
Delicious.

Weizenbock? That's definitely an ale, but stlil very much worth brewing and drinking.

 

[Blind Dog]

Too true, too true.

Make the lager as bland and inoffensive as white bread and maybe it will be just as popular - it's a screwy idea but you can kinda see how the marketing department made their way to it. Well anyone who has had fresh homebaked bread will tell you just how crap generic sliced white is.

...and if you think I'm going OT think of that last sentence as a metaphor. h34r:

It's not just lager though. The abomination that is 'smooth flow' English bitter is just the same - generic , flavourless and appeals to the lowest common denominator.

At least standard white bread has the dubious advantage of being cheap. Crap beer is the same price as much better options. Eg local Dans had TED on special recently at $78 for 2 cartons. Next to it was Bitburger at $38 a carton. Not exactly craft beer, but a classic nonetheless

 

[Eagleburger]

I won't feel under 18degC for the next 6 months. So everything is brewed in temp controlled freezer. bbesides the initial fermentation temp difference and extra two weeks sitting in the garage at ambient , all beers are brewed the same.

changing the setting on the stc for a lager worth it? **** yeh, even the ones that taste like water.

Having different beer is great.I never tire of any.

 

[manticle]

Weizenbock? That's definitely an ale, but stlil very much worth brewing and drinking.

Indeed. Mistake entirely mine.

My point stands though - the world of lager does not need to be limited to insipid commercial mass market swill and I die a little inside when people who should know this continually refer to 'lager' as a single style of beer. So many delicious beers - some hearty and robust, others delicate and subtle.

 

[Tahoose]

Funny how when you hear lager you think of completely different things for example if I said crown lager the majority here would probably feel uncomfortable and angry with the crap which is called a lager.

Where as, if I said German lager, we would probably all start speculating on the very fine distinctive beer that it is, and how it just proves that the skill that goes into brewing an otherwise simple beer. Truly makes it what it is.

I think the common theme here back on topic, is that if you like drinking lagers. Then they are definitely worth the time and effort.

 

[pist]

Yes. Theres just as much to appreciate in a well made lager as a big hop IPA.
Lagers are much less forgiving with sloppy management of fermentation temperatures. These beers really teach you how important it is to control fermentation/fermentation temps, and I believe, can make you a much better brewer as they arm you with experience and knowledge on how best to control the fermentation process to achieve a nice clean, crisp beer. This can go a long way to even improving your ales.

 

[Weizguy]

my 2 cents here.
I believe that a fine Czech Pils or even a Czech dark are among the best beers I have ever tasted.
Yeah, I admit I love a good pils. Complex, hoppy and malty, yet delicate and balanced and perfumed.

You just can't make a beer like that with ale techniques, and if you can, I need you to tell me how, now.
It's been too long since I made one of those, and I can still remember how it tasted.

 

[fletcher]

yes they are worth the bother