Are Extracts Worth The Effort?

[Lodan]

I'm coming back into kit brewing so will eventually be in a similar situation to yourself.

In my opinion progression from k&k, k&b to extract is a nice learning process before jumping into ag.

As to quality of some extract brews, you only have to look at Neil's Centenarillo Ale and Dr Smurtos Golden Ale for some well received example.

 

[King Brown]

When I first moved to extract it took me a few tries to brew a decent beer, but all those failed attempts were valuable lessons. Eventually I knocked out a few good batches, then brewed one partial (which turned out to be fantastic)
This year I made the leap to all grain, and while on my first batch I collected far too little wort and got massively under targey OG, the brew still turned out to be very drinkable, and because I'd gone through a few extract batches I could figure out where I went wrong pretty easily. Got my second AG batch in the fermenter now, collected enough wort and got dead on target OG, and so can be pretty confident that if for the rest of the brewing process I stick to the methods I learned brewing extract the beer will turn out great.

So is it worth doing extract? Imho yes, because you'll learn about the brewing process alot easier if you only add one extra step at a time, and you can figure out the best way to do each step to brew the beer you want alot easier.

 

[Frag_Dog]

I went straight from K&K to All Grain. If you're willing to spend the cash (thank you Mr Rudd!), and put up with a few brews not coming out that great I think you're better off doing it in one leap. My first few brews I had a thermometer that was out by 5-10C which resulted in a few sickly sweet beers, but its all part of the learning process.

The argument on cost of AG vs K&K / Extract has been done to death so I assume you know the equipment outlay for AG can be quite big (or reasonable depending on your needs/wants).

 

[booyablack]

Hi, I have done some research into extract brewing and don't mind a bit of work and love the brewing process. Does anyone have a opinion if extract is worth the effort compared to K&K (with hops etc) or should I save my energy for all grain, when the minister of war and finance releases the funds!( no time soonL)

I have only been brewing K&K and extract brews so far and I must say that all my best beers have been extract. Don't get me wrong, I've had plenty of good K&K brews but like others have said here I like the greater control that you have with the extract brews. I find that some of my K&K beers have what people here describe as "homebrew twang". The best ways I have found to eliminate this taste are:

1) Hop the crap out of the beer. Obviously this doesn't eliminate the taste, it just disguises/covers it. Not a great solution but has been done by more people than just me.

2) Move to extract brewing. I've been trying to pinpoint what causes the so-called "twang". At first I thought it was the fact that the kit or the LME is stored in a can, like how you can get that tinny taste if you open a can of something (i.e. corn kernels) and then leave the half-used can stored in the fridge. But now I'm beginning to think that it's the isohops added to the kits that cause that taste. Obviously I'm not the first to come up with this theory but I am starting to agree with those who give the thumbs down to pre-bittered cans for that reason.

Basically, the fact that you have control of the amount of bittering and the hops you use by doing a hops boil extract beer is the thing that attracts me to extract over K&K.

Also I totally agree with previous posters about the use of steeped specialty grains adding further improvement to your beer.

Check out some of the extract recipes in the recipeDB there are some good ones in there that aren't too hard and will give you a good idea of the difference between extract and K&K.

I hope something in this ramble helps!



booyablack

 

[nathanR]

What about using grains , hops and good yeast in kits ?

I am currently doing it this way and making some tasty beer

I just dont have the time with a young family to spend all day brewing beer

 

[Bribie G]

What about using grains , hops and good yeast in kits ?

I am currently doing it this way and making some tasty beer

I just dont have the time with a young family to spend all day brewing beer

Yes as mentioned earlier in the thread a great way of avoiding kit twang is to use a very lightly flavoured kit such as Coopers Cerveza or Canadian and building up your own flavour profile using grains and hops, and ferment with a half way decent yeast such as US-05 or a lager yeast at low temps.
The advantage of using the lightest possible kit is that you can use additional bittering hops as well as flavour and aroma, and some of the more delicate steeping grains such as Carapils and Caraaroma can add subtle notes to the beer that might otherwise get drowned out using 'standard' malt extacts or a more heavily flavoured kit.

 

[petesbrew]

What about using grains , hops and good yeast in kits ?

I am currently doing it this way and making some tasty beer

I just dont have the time with a young family to spend all day brewing beer

Totally know what you mean. My AG days usually mean a lot of running in and outside, playing with the kids. The real fun begins when they go to bed at night, and I can safely do a big boil outside.
But while you still do the hour long boil, the beauty of Kit & Extract Brewing is you can do a concentrated boil of say 10L instead of the full batch., and just top it up with water in the fermenter.

But +1 to the kits Bribieg suggested. IMO the Coopers Real & Dark cans are great base kits.

 

[Pennywise]

What about using grains , hops and good yeast in kits ?

Only way to do it IMO

I am currently doing it this way and making some tasty beer

And that's the point

I just dont have the time with a young family to spend all day brewing beer

I'm in the same boat mate, my brewing mainly consists of extracts & kits'n'bits, with an AG thrown in every couple of months when I get a leave pass from corperal punishment

 

[Dazza_devil]

I don't think there is a lot of extra effort between kits & bits and extract brewing. Little effort and much improved results from my experience. Not a real lot of extra room for error either. Similar to baking a cake with a packet mix or using all the raw ingredients.
What I like about extract brewing is making my own recipes from scratch and making my own personal signature beer, whatever style I choose. If you can do it with an iso-hopped kit plus bits then you can do it with a can of un-hopped goo. Same as anything, you get out what you put in and if you always do what you've always done then you will always get what you've always got.

 

[earle]

I do both KnB and extract. With most I steep grains and have to do a boil to at least sterilise the liquor meaning that short hop boils really don't add any extra time. If you had to put a time difference on the two I would say about 30-40 minutes. For me using a kit means only a short hop boil to add flavour and aroma, and of course with all extract you need about a 60 min boil to get enough bitterness.

 

[Mickthe]

I do both extract and K/K with judicious use of hops, spec grains and appropriate yeast. (liquid for spec ales or US05)

Can say though the extract ones cost me 50% as much again and they are only slightly better beers really, if at all.

Great post, i have been wondering whether to do Kit or Extract on my next DSGA....

Mick.

 

[manticle]

But now I'm beginning to think that it's the isohops added to the kits that cause that taste. Obviously I'm not the first to come up with this theory but I am starting to agree with those who give the thumbs down to pre-bittered cans for that reason.

This is something I question. As far as I know, coopers don't use isohop in their bottled beer. They claim their beers and kits are produced in exactly the same way up to the creation of the wort.

Note that I'm not 100% sure - there could be some leeway in the interpretation of that but a quick email could sort that out - they are usually responsive.

 

[beerdrinkingbob]

BDBob, sounds like you're ready to start exploring. It's easy to be overwhelmed by the raft of info and techniques but don't be discouraged. It's great fun exploring the difference in ingredience and process. Have a read through http://www.howtobrew.com/intro.html - Palmer gives you a blow by blow how-to as well as the why (if you're interested)
I reckon extract is definately worth it, it's the next logical step.

What style of beers do you like? I found a popular extract brew that I made was a golden ale with 3kg dme and 75g Amarillo hops added in 3 additions. It had a lot of flavour! Impossible for a kit beer using hop extract.


don't do that, grain shouldn't be steeped higher than 78C or you'll get astringency

Wow overwhelmed doesn't describe it especially the help you can get on the site, I think I developed ocd after only a couple of days in the forums.

Jakub, I like a good golden ale and love a good wheat beer too, but haven't found a beer yet I dislike!

 

[bum]

This is something I question. As far as I know, coopers don't use isohop in their bottled beer. They claim their beers and kits are produced in exactly the same way up to the creation of the wort.

Note that I'm not 100% sure - there could be some leeway in the interpretation of that but a quick email could sort that out - they are usually responsive.

Such naivety! You're simply gorgeous! Why doesn't the pale ale kit taste like the pale ale in the bottles when you use recultured bottle yeast if it is the same thing?

Not exactly proof but Google points me to this thread at the Coopers board http://www.coopers.com.au/the-brewers-guil...osts&t=1073 and the admin (from Adelaide) says "ISO hop" is used in one particular kit and I would bet my balls that every other kit does too. For what it is worth, I agree completely that isohop is the most objectionable flavour in (well made) kit beers.

 

[ekul]

Your only outlay for extract is going to be a pot and i guarrantee your beers will taste delicious.
The difference between k&k and extract is what made me go to ag. My extract beers tasted so much better than my kit beers so i wondered what the difference between extract and ag would be like. Its the same again! (i hope this is making sense )

in saying that though i don't regret going to extract first as i learnt alot of things, especially about how hops perform and reusing/culturing yeast. Plus i use all the equipment that i bought for extract (big pot and pvc tube for siphon) in my ag brews so it wasn't really wasted money.

The time involved with extract isn't really that long.
I'd boil my water (i'm on tank water) and place it in the brew fridge overnight to cool it which took about 5min of doing stuff.
then i'd cook my brew the next day. 30-60 mins. depending on recipe
Siphon brew into fermenter 5min
Add near freezing water which would make brew be about 18C 2min
Pitch yeast 5sec
Wrap up, put in fridge and forget.


I reckon go for it!

 

[Nodrog]

how do you go with syphoning boiling wort by the way?

I've done half a dozen kits and x2 AG BIABs and have been very pleased with my AG results.
HOWEVER, my BIABS were 10-12 litre boils, which gave me 10-12 bottles, 750mls each, after the trub wastage etc.
For 5 hours "work" that just didn't add up. I could spend a few hundred bucks on gear and do 20 litre batches in 5 hours, but hard to justify.

So I've done my first extract brew, the "everyone should make this" Centenarillo.
Great aroma and flavour, probably took 90 mins all up, an hour longer than a kit+kilo, but for the taste, worth the extra 60 mins.
It is lacking a little in bitterness though, which i guess is because of the short boil time.

Not sure if I will try it again with longer boil, or just use a basic kit for the bitterness, and end up with kit+bits.

None of them result in an undrinkable beer though, so whatever happens we're ahead !

 

[beerdrinkingbob]

how do you go with syphoning boiling wort by the way?

I've done half a dozen kits and x2 AG BIABs and have been very pleased with my AG results.
HOWEVER, my BIABS were 10-12 litre boils, which gave me 10-12 bottles, 750mls each, after the trub wastage etc.
For 5 hours "work" that just didn't add up. I could spend a few hundred bucks on gear and do 20 litre batches in 5 hours, but hard to justify.

So I've done my first extract brew, the "everyone should make this" Centenarillo.
Great aroma and flavour, probably took 90 mins all up, an hour longer than a kit+kilo, but for the taste, worth the extra 60 mins.
It is lacking a little in bitterness though, which i guess is because of the short boil time.

Not sure if I will try it again with longer boil, or just use a basic kit for the bitterness, and end up with kit+bits.

None of them result in an undrinkable beer though, so whatever happens we're ahead !

After all the information (thanks everyone) I have decided to embark on an extract journey :icon_cheers: . Now Im looking for good recipes and would appreciate anyones input, looked through the DB and the one you pointed out by Nodrog looks like and obvious choice from there, however there is only one page of recipes so the more the merrier!! :icon_chickcheers:

 

[zoidbergmerc]

You wont look back, extracts are so much better.

A good recipe I like is

2kg Pale malt
1kg Wheat Malt

dissolve that in as much water as you can boil

Bring to the boil.

Hops =

Nelson & Cascades

@ 60 12g of Cascade
@ 45 12g Cascades
@ 30 12g cascades
@ 15 12g Cascades & 12g Nelson
@ 5 12g Nelson

Use US-05 yeast.

Makes 23L

Yummy!

 

[manticle]

Such naivety! You're simply gorgeous! Why doesn't the pale ale kit taste like the pale ale in the bottles when you use recultured bottle yeast if it is the same thing?

Not exactly proof but Google points me to this thread at the Coopers board http://www.coopers.com.au/the-brewers-guil...osts&t=1073 and the admin (from Adelaide) says "ISO hop" is used in one particular kit and I would bet my balls that every other kit does too. For what it is worth, I agree completely that isohop is the most objectionable flavour in (well made) kit beers.

We're both right.

Coopers put fresh PoR flowers in the kettle of all their brews and may add isohop to some brews (I believe both kits and bottled beer) for consistency - at least according to the email I got from Frank Acker (Coopes HB)

I am gorgeous.

 

[bum]

You're forgetting simple.