All New Big Brew System

[atomicfr33x]

Currently I have a 10 gallon capacity AG rig. It's made up of 1x 50L Aluminum Boil Kettle and 2x 50L Stainless Steel Keggles that are the HLT and MT. The HLT has a 2200watt heating element and the kettle has a 40mj/h turkey burner. The rig has two March Pumps and is all run manually.

The new system I am trying to upscale to will consist of 3x 300L "Variable Capacity Tanks" for HLT, MT, Kettle (pictures). These Tanks are Stainless Steel and usually used for wine making. I have been told that they are suitable for brewing. The batch size I would be aiming for would be 228L.

My questions are:

1. Obviously I will use immersion heater(s) for the 300L HLT, but can I also use immersion heater(s) for the 300L kettle?
2. Should I use Screw-In Immersion Heaters (with the element exposed to the HLT Water and Kettle Wort) or Bobbin Copper Sheathed Heaters.
3. How much wattage will I need for heating 250L Strike Water and 250L Kettle Boil, and would it be best to have one monster heater for each tank or multiple strategically positioned heaters in each tank?
4. Or should I stick with gas? What sort of burner would I require?

I am also thinking about buying additional 300L Tanks for Fermenting, can anyone see a problem with that?


It's a lot of questions I know, but this is going to be a big investment. Any solid advice would be appreciated.

 

[T.D.]

I have pondered the same issues for my big system. It is only 150L, so quite a bit smaller than yours, and my conclusion has been that its too hard to go electric without some serious circut upgrades (ie 3 phase and lots of amps). Gas is the best option for this size in a non-industrial setting.

By the way, I use a 32 jet Mongolian burner for all my heating/boiling duties. Does it no sweat. Uses up almost an entire 9kg gas bottle per brew though...

 

[T.D.]

Do you know if the base of these vessels could handle a gas burner?

 

[raven19]

Wow, that is a biggun!

1. Obviously I will use immersion heater(s) for the 300L HLT, but can I also use immersion heater(s) for the 300L kettle?
Yes, however I would look into heat densities. I use ceramic elements (hence low density) inside a stainless steel sleeve.
There are a number of threads on here discussing going all electric, and options plus discussion on burning the wort.
The flip side is others use exposed higher heating density elements with no reported issues. For such a large batch I would hate to see you lose a lot of wort...

2. Should I use Screw-In Immersion Heaters (with the element exposed to the HLT Water and Kettle Wort) or Bobbin Copper Sheathed Heaters.
I'd go the sheathed personally.

3. How much wattage will I need for heating 250L Strike Water and 250L Kettle Boil, and would it be best to have one monster heater for each tank or multiple strategically positioned heaters in each tank?
I would go for a number of elements due to the amps a large one would draw. Also easier to turn some of them off when you get to a good rolling boil.
Check out this link: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/546087.html - a lot will depend on your heating losses, insulation, etc

4. Or should I stick with gas? What sort of burner would I require?
I like electric. You shall use a heap of gas in such a large brewery.

My 2c.

 

[atomicfr33x]

Do you know if the base of these vessels could handle a gas burner?

Apparently the base would be suitable, but that was originally a concern I had too.

 

[T.D.]

Check out this link: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/546087.html - a lot will depend on your heating losses, insulation, etc

Using the example in that link I interpret it as meaning to heat 150L of water from 8 degrees to 60degrees in one hour would take an 8.8kw element. Is that correct?

If that's the case, unless you have a lot of time on your hands, you'd want a pretty hefty element for this system (I would think in the order of 10-15kw). That will suck a HEAP of power and would require a pretty serious 3-phase circut. If that's plausible then great (I agree electric is better, all things being equal). But in a lot of ways gas is a lot less complicated. There are burners you can buy off the rack that will do this volume no worries. No extra infrastructure required.


Another option that could work is a smaller element (~4kw) in the HLT that you can set on a thermostat to heat the brew water overnight. Because you have 8hrs+ to heat the water you can do it with a much smaller element, and just have a temp controller set so it cycles on and off once it reaches the right temp. It will also be much cheaper running the element at night. But you would need a bigger HLT so you could prepare all of the brew water in one lot.

Then just use gas for the kettle.

 

[crozdog]

Hi atomic,

lots of questions sure, but i think you need to ask yourself a heap more before undertaking this project as the answers will have a direct influence on the design / implementation practicallities & budget. Some initial questions include:

- do I have the skills / time / tools / energy to make this?
- how am i going to support several hundred kilograms?
- why do I want to make 200+l of 1 brew? eg only have to brew 3 times / year? big brew days? small scale fwk production business?
- what am I going to do with 200+l of wort? Cube it? cool & ferment?
- if you're going to cool & ferment, how will you cool it?
- if you're going to ferment it, how are you going to keep your fermetation cool?
- how are you going to package the finished product? keg? bottle?
- do you have space to store the finished product?
- where am I going to set it up? Do I have the space?
- does the place I'm going to set it up have the capacity to power the rig? (only if you go electric heating. you may need to get the supply to your house / workshop upgraded & that isn't cheap)
- would I need to rewire the location to deal with the power load that it would draw? (only if you go electric heating)
- do I have mains natural gas supply that could be used instead of electricity?
- how are you going to safely move that volume of hot liquids around? The logistics are a big issue!
- how go I connect everything? eg triclover or camlock what size?
- how do i get rid of the spent grain?
- how do I clean everything?
- what's my budget?

You should check out the used catering / industrial equipment places eg fallsdell or ernest flemmings - I reckon you'll buy better quality vats there cheaper than those listed. those tanks look similar to ones I've seen here in a wine supply place. i thought they were pretty flimsy for the price. I certainly wouldn't want to put a burner under one!

Why do you want to make that volume? if you could survive on less, you could do it cheaper using 220l drums (some are currently for sale here for $180 each)

Why is it obvious that you'd use an immersion heater for the HLT?

If you're prepared to spend $ why use a HLT at all? Good natural gas instantaneous hot water heaters allow you to set the output temp. Therefore all you need to do is set the temp & turn on the tap - no more heating & waiting to get to strike temp or getting to mash out temp.

Ask q2 & q3 to someone like helios or tobins - they will be able to help.

I like gas myself, checkout gameco or someone similar who deals in gas burners for advice on diferent options. Note once you start getting over 80MJ, when using LPG, you will need to link multiple bottles together as 1 x 9kg bottle won't be able to supply the burners demands. The bottle will ice up which slows down the conversion of the liquid to gas which means that the burner won't output as much heat.

not many answers i know, but hope fully it helps you work out some things. let me know if i can help further
croz

 

[T.D.]

By the way, here are a couple of pics of my 150L system. I do all the heating in one vessel, for the mash and sparge water I just pump across to the mash tun or HLT, which are both insulated and hold the temp almost perfectly. Its the simplest way I can think of to brew on this scale. You open a can of worms with electric heating once you go beyond the standard 10A household circut.

 

[kirem]

The batch size I would be aiming for would be 228L.

A good round number that I am familiar with

 

[atomicfr33x]

Using the example in that link I interpret it as meaning to heat 150L of water from 8 degrees to 60degrees in one hour would take an 8.8kw element. Is that correct?

If that's the case, unless you have a lot of time on your hands, you'd want a pretty hefty element for this system (I would think in the order of 10-15kw). That will suck a HEAP of power and would require a pretty serious 3-phase circut. If that's plausible then great (I agree electric is better, all things being equal). But in a lot of ways gas is a lot less complicated. There are burners you can buy off the rack that will do this volume no worries. No extra infrastructure required.


Another option that could work is a smaller element (~4kw) in the HLT that you can set on a thermostat to heat the brew water overnight. Because you have 8hrs+ to heat the water you can do it with a much smaller element, and just have a temp controller set so it cycles on and off once it reaches the right temp. It will also be much cheaper running the element at night. But you would need a bigger HLT so you could prepare all of the brew water in one lot.

Then just use gas for the kettle.

I have a Johnson Control unit already for the HLT. What sort of burner do you reckon cand do this job "off the shelf"?

 

[raven19]

You open a can of worms with electric heating once you go beyond the standard 10A household circut.

+1. Thats why I use 2 x 2400W elements on separate circuits. My Kettle Thread.

 

[atomicfr33x]

By the way, here are a couple of pics of my 150L system. I do all the heating in one vessel, for the mash and sparge water I just pump across to the mash tun or HLT, which are both insulated and hold the temp almost perfectly. Its the simplest way I can think of to brew on this scale. You open a can of worms with electric heating once you go beyond the standard 10A household circut.

Nice.. kind of looks like the rig the Bushtuckerman would have.. were those drums cheap and easy to get?

 

[atomicfr33x]

- do I have the skills / time / tools / energy to make this? i have all the time in the world, retired (at a young age)
- how am i going to support several hundred kilograms? i will have to get a steel platform welded
- why do I want to make 200+l of 1 brew? eg only have to brew 3 times / year? big brew days? small scale fwk production business? planning a smallish business enterprise
- what am I going to do with 200+l of wort? Cube it? cool & ferment? Dual Layered wort cooling Counterflow + Therminator
- if you're going to cool & ferment, how will you cool it?
- if you're going to ferment it, how are you going to keep your fermetation cool? (4x) 300L tanks with glycol insulation (DIY Project from Brew your own magazine)
- how are you going to package the finished product? keg? bottle? Keg only
- do you have space to store the finished product? Lots, really lots..
- where am I going to set it up? Do I have the space? Lots still..
- does the place I'm going to set it up have the capacity to power the rig? (only if you go electric heating. you may need to get the supply to your house / workshop upgraded & that isn't cheap) That's the stuff I need to know, although I can get single phase elements
- would I need to rewire the location to deal with the power load that it would draw? (only if you go electric heating) dunno yet
- do I have mains natural gas supply that could be used instead of electricity? can be arranged
- how are you going to safely move that volume of hot liquids around? The logistics are a big issue! Pumps
- how go I connect everything? eg triclover or camlock what size? :huh:
- how do i get rid of the spent grain? Sorted, don't ask.
- how do I clean everything? Plain hard work, i guess
- what's my budget? $10K

You should check out the used catering / industrial equipment places eg fallsdell or ernest flemmings - I reckon you'll buy better quality vats there cheaper than those listed. those tanks look similar to ones I've seen here in a wine supply place. i thought they were pretty flimsy for the price. I certainly wouldn't want to put a burner under one!

Why do you want to make that volume? if you could survive on less, you could do it cheaper using 220l drums (some are currently for sale here for $180 each) I AM INTERESTED

Why is it obvious that you'd use an immersion heater for the HLT? Brewing indoors, gas inhalation..?

If you're prepared to spend $ why use a HLT at all? Good natural gas instantaneous hot water heaters allow you to set the output temp. Therefore all you need to do is set the temp & turn on the tap - no more heating & waiting to get to strike temp or getting to mash out temp.

Ask q2 & q3 to someone like helios or tobins - they will be able to help. :lol: I have placed a quote request with Helios, awaiting reply..

I like gas myself, checkout gameco or someone similar who deals in gas burners for advice on diferent options. Note once you start getting over 80MJ, when using LPG, you will need to link multiple bottles together as 1 x 9kg bottle won't be able to supply the burners demands. The bottle will ice up which slows down the conversion of the liquid to gas which means that the burner won't output as much heat.

not many answers i know, but hope fully it helps you work out some things. let me know if i can help further
croz

 

[T.D.]

Nice.. kind of looks like the rig the Bushtuckerman would have.. were those drums cheap and easy to get?

:lol: :lol: Well, since I reckon Les Hiddins is a FREAKIN LEGEND, I will take that as a compliment!

Yeah the mash tun and HLT are the blue "Mauser" drums. They are foodgrade and rated to 80deg (although I reckon you could boil in them no worries...). I just wrapped them in camping mat. I have never had a more temp-stable mash tun - not even 1deg loss over a 60min mash.

As you can see the kettle is a stainless 44gal drum. But its more sturdy than most I have seen. The bottom has a reinforced rim around it.

Re the burner, you would have a number of options. Seeing how easily my 32 jet Mongolian boils 165L of wort I would think it would also happily boil your intended volume. If you want more grunt though, there are some pretty mean "duckbill" burners on the market that throw out even more heat.

Another option is to rig up two HP Nasas next to each other. I decided to go the low pressure route though...

edit: And just a quick word on gas consumption, I use the mongolian to do all of the heating duties on this system and I use up *just* under one 9kg gas bottle per brew. I always have a second one on hand though.

 

[WildebeestAttack]

You could get something like this for a price around your budget. (The 1BBL system) http://www.pbcbreweryinstallations.com/breweries.html

Maybe even track down a second hand one from the UK. (There are plenty of small scale breweries over there, many of them either get big enough to upgrade or go out of business.)

Otherwise all I would recommend is going gas. I've used a 4 ring burner with a high pressure reg to do 150L batches. Pretty much uses a whole 9kg gas bottle, but a lot easier than re-wiring the shed (and don't get me started on cleaning elements - when I ran a brewery in the UK I wasted so much time in the kettle with a scrubby cleaning elements).

 

[atomicfr33x]

:lol: :lol: Well, since I reckon Les Hiddins is a FREAKIN LEGEND, I will take that as a compliment!

I meant it as a compliment !!