All Grain - is it substantially better beer?

[PaulS]

This is irrelevant, you want to add oxygen into the wort to help the yeast feed.

Yes you do, but that shouldn't happen at the mash stage. You should be avoiding adding too much oxygen at the mash stage to avoid creating any oxidation, and any oxygen that is introduced during the mash will be driven off by the boil so won't be available to the yeast anyway. Once the wort is cooled and ready to go into the fermenter is the time to oxygenate for the benefit of the yeast, not before.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Yes you do, but that shouldn't happen at the mash stage. You should be avoiding adding too much oxygen at the mash stage to avoid creating any oxidation, and any oxygen that is introduced during the mash will be driven off by the boil so won't be available to the yeast anyway. Once the wort is cooled and ready to go into the fermenter is the time to oxygenate for the benefit of the yeast, not before.

Oxygen does not always benefit the yeast, to much and the yeast suffers oxidative stress, another factor is how long does the DO remain in the wort, is it in there long enough for the yeast to sort itself out and use up the oxygen put in? Some strains of yeast require no oxygen.
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/how_yeast_use_oxygen

 

[PaulS]

Oxygen does not always benefit the yeast, to much and the yeast suffers oxidative stress, another factor is how long does the DO remain in the wort, is it in there long enough for the yeast to sort itself out and use up the oxygen put in? Some strains of yeast require no oxygen.
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/how_yeast_use_oxygen

Fascinating article WEAL, thanks for posting. The bottom line still seems to be that aeration of wort prior to, or just after, pitching yeast is beneficial in most cases, just not for the same reasons some brewing texts suggest. Some very interesting information worth remembering when it comes to bigger beers though, where it might not be wise to aerate depending on the beer being brewed. Cheers.

 

[captnhaddock]

There is another option to explore which gives you some of the best of both worlds and what i have basically settled on tor the last 12 monts. And that is partial grain brewing. I pretty much use cans for my bitterness and then add steeped crystal malt / roasted barly and make up the rest with dry malt extract. I also dry hop my pales with a cascade and galaxy mix.

I find steeping grain adds a heap more body, flavour and head retention.

Ians brewing spreadsheet is a great guide to get close to particular styles.

I wanted to second Koshari's recommendation. Coming from a Yank's perspective (where pre-bittered malt is not the norm), most extract kits are really partial grain in nature, and provide the level of flexibility / or scope even that AG brewers are aiming for. I can brew up a batch in two hours and be quit of it before my wife even bothers to fuss me (that includes set up / steeping the grains / racking to fermenter and cleanup)..

 

[Tricky Dicky]

I'm very close to making the jump from Extract kits to all grain, but I am still not wholly convinced that the cost (will be buying a Robobrew) and the time sink of a brew day is worth it.

I can knock over a perfectly adequate and tasty extract brew day in an hour after work. Will spending 5+ hours using a robobrew (and the cost in buying one) really make beer that is chalk and cheese better and completely justifies the time/cost?

This is probably a really dumb and obvious question to most, but I really want to be sure as I am quite happy with the beers I have been making recently.

I already have a kegerator, 3x kegs and a fermentation fridge, so this is really the last jump for me. Cheers

After dabbling with homebrewing 30 some years ago (all k+k) I started homebrewing again a few months ago and started with k+k and that taste/flavour reminded of what I produced all those years ago, it's quite a distinct flavour, not necessarily bad but a memorable "homebrew" flavour. So I decided to change to partial grain and extract and found a BIAB process of using 19L Big W pot with 2.5-3 kg grain (base and adjunct grains combined ) I then add a dry extract to make up the difference in the amount of base malt I need. In conjunction with this I started using Beersmith software to help with all the calculations that balance out the % of adjunct malts I need for a recipe and the amount of dry extract required to meet the base malt needed. Also the IBU level, final abv% (I don't like beers too strong so I find the ability to control this essential) can be tweaked like everything else e.g maltyness etc so there is a lot of flexibility almost as much as AG I would think. The time spent to brew is similar to AG but I reckon the taste is much better and the flexibility is endless but the cost for this set up was only $20-30 for the 19L pot which suited my circumstances. One day I'll go AG no doubt but this midway partial grain process is producing some good beers without that "homebrew" flavour at a relatively low cost and above all, its a really enjoyable way to make beer.

 

[koshari]

I wanted to second Koshari's recommendation. Coming from a Yank's perspective (where pre-bittered malt is not the norm), most extract kits are really partial grain in nature, and provide the level of flexibility / or scope even that AG brewers are aiming for. I can brew up a batch in two hours and be quit of it before my wife even bothers to fuss me (that includes set up / steeping the grains / racking to fermenter and cleanup)..

Iam hearing you there Skipper

 

[Thomas Wood]

For some reason this forum stopped alerting me to responses. I have gone through and read everything and it looks like I will be getting a Robobrew (or whatever system I decide on) for my birthday in April!

My two cents would be to buy a $20 19L stainless pot from Big W and a BIAB bag from one of the sponsors. That's enough equipment to brew small AG batches BIAB style (12-13L). Brew 2 or 3 batches and work out if the resulting beer is worth your time and effort. If not, you've not spent much money. If yes, this is equipment you'll keep on using regardless. I think it's worthwhile trialling things before taking the plunge and buying an all in one vessel.

I'm definitely going to do this for my next brew. This is not something I put much thought into before.

Cheers everyone.

 

[labels]

The difference between extract and all-grain can be equated to the difference between instant coffee and espresso brewed coffee. Sums it up.

 

[captnhaddock]

For some reason this forum stopped alerting me to responses. I have gone through and read everything and it looks like I will be getting a Robobrew (or whatever system I decide on) for my birthday in April!
I'm definitely going to do this for my next brew. This is not something I put much thought into before.

Cheers everyone.

I also BIAB along with my partial grain brew sessions, when I feel like noodling with my beer, but can't say enough for the partial grain for it's simplicity and easy (and more important) quick brew sessions.

 

[Thomas Wood]

Have had my first Maxi-BIAB AG Helles Lager (Mangrove Jacks kit) on keg for the last month. All my mates love it and I think it can definitely be better considering my mash and sparge temps bounced around all over the shop.

Considering how difficult it was the control temps, the mess it made, etc, I was pretty happy with the result.

Will be ordering a Robobrew next week. Now to find some easy XPA and Lager/Pils recipes

 

[mongey]

it funny I was thinking about this thread the other day . after my first 14 AG batches in a row I just did my first kit beer in 9 months .

have a new baby and had a tin sitting in the cupboard for a year ,so figured Id just chuck it on with what I had .

coopers bootmaker tin
+ tin liquid wheat malt
+ 500 ldm with a 10 min boil of some centennial for flavor .

pitched direct onto a WLP550 yeast cake from AG beer before
dry hopped with a little calypso

so its some kind of mutant belgian pale ale


its done and to be bottled this weekend

my thoughts

it finished higher than my AG beers. OG was 1052. Id expect that to get down to 1006 with my experience with wlp550. but it finished at 1012 . but its def done
taste wise its fine out of the fermenter. I feel like its less refined than my AG beers .but that could also be in my head .hard to tell till its carbed in the bottle
I'm def not as excited about it as I am when my AG is ready ,kind of feels like an unloved stepchild

 

[Mattysd]

I was an extract brewer from many years ago. I recently decided to go all grain. The most satisfying thing for me is researching different styles. The smell of the process from mash to boil then fermentation is amazing. I have bottled 2 20lt fermentation and have 2 more bubbling away now. I have made 4 very different brews and am looking forward to drinking them in a month or 2. I am very excited about grain brewing and find it therapeutic.
Just my opinion

Cheers
Matt

 

[Truman42]

Have had my first Maxi-BIAB AG Helles Lager (Mangrove Jacks kit) on keg for the last month. All my mates love it and I think it can definitely be better considering my mash and sparge temps bounced around all over the shop.

Considering how difficult it was the control temps, the mess it made, etc, I was pretty happy with the result.

Will be ordering a Robobrew next week. Now to find some easy XPA and Lager/Pils recipes

So did you order the robobrew yet? Im thinking about doing the same after years of using a 3v herms sytem. Too much work to setup and clean up so the robobrew appeals to me.

 

[Thomas Wood]

So did you order the robobrew yet? Im thinking about doing the same after years of using a 3v herms sytem. Too much work to setup and clean up so the robobrew appeals to me.

Yeh mate, it arrived yesterday. She's a beauty. Got the reflux still attachment as well.

Gave it a good clean and hosed it off. The Gen 3.1 has a few nice improvements on it.

Will do my first brew probably Monday (Czech Pilsner) after I keg what's currently in the fermenter.

 

[Truman42]

Yeh mate, it arrived yesterday. She's a beauty. Got the reflux still attachment as well.

Gave it a good clean and hosed it off. The Gen 3.1 has a few nice improvements on it.

Will do my first brew probably Monday (Czech Pilsner) after I keg what's currently in the fermenter.

Looking forward to a full report.

 

[Thomas Wood]

Looking forward to a full report.

Will do mate
Will pay extra care to set up and cleaning for ya

 

[Thomas Wood]

Looking forward to a full report.

Man what an amazing system. All up the brew day took about 6hrs. Probably only 2hrs of me actively doing anything. 90m mash and 90m boil.

Set up takes seconds. Then I heated up 20L of sparge water to 85* and put that in a pot. Then I started to heat up my mash water. Then I had to unfortunately duck out for 2hrs...

When I came back I started heating my mash water again. It doesn't take long at all with both elements on.

I mashed in about 4.2kg of grain and 16L of water (0.5kg of wheat in there, no rice hulls). Had zero issues with stuck mash or poor flow. Stoked.

Then I sparge. Water was down to 55* now since it was 3hrs later.

I turned on both heating elements when I started sparing and it took another 10 or 20 minutes after sparging to hit the rolling boil.

Cleaned up my mash tin and filters by hosing them off and giving a wipe. Feel like it didn't need more than that.

After the boil it took about 30m with the included immersion cooler to get to 25*.

Cleanup afterwards was just a good hose off, PWB soak, and good scrub/wipe with a microfibre towel. Has all come up good.

Mash tun scratches easily if that bothers you. Also I feel like the handy is way too small. It just slips out of the holes everytime. Lifting up the mash tun was more difficult than it needed to be. That is literally my only issue though.

OG was 2 points short of what Beersmith predicted so I chalk that down to sparging with 20* cooler water and probably more of it.

And for those wondering, the Robobrew used about $4 of power at peak rates.

 

[Truman42]

Man what an amazing system. All up the brew day took about 6hrs. Probably only 2hrs of me actively doing anything. 90m mash and 90m boil.

Set up takes seconds. Then I heated up 20L of sparge water to 85* and put that in a pot. Then I started to heat up my mash water. Then I had to unfortunately duck out for 2hrs...

When I came back I started heating my mash water again. It doesn't take long at all with both elements on.

I mashed in about 4.2kg of grain and 16L of water (0.5kg of wheat in there, no rice hulls). Had zero issues with stuck mash or poor flow. Stoked.

Then I sparge. Water was down to 55* now since it was 3hrs later.

I turned on both heating elements when I started sparing and it took another 10 or 20 minutes after sparging to hit the rolling boil.

Cleaned up my mash tin and filters by hosing them off and giving a wipe. Feel like it didn't need more than that.

After the boil it took about 30m with the included immersion cooler to get to 25*.

Cleanup afterwards was just a good hose off, PWB soak, and good scrub/wipe with a microfibre towel. Has all come up good.

Mash tun scratches easily if that bothers you. Also I feel like the handy is way too small. It just slips out of the holes everytime. Lifting up the mash tun was more difficult than it needed to be. That is literally my only issue though.

OG was 2 points short of what Beersmith predicted so I chalk that down to sparging with 20* cooler water and probably more of it.

And for those wondering, the Robobrew used about $4 of power at peak rates.

Good one mate, sounds like your very happy with it. I ended up buying a 2nd hand Guten for $300, only 4 months old so I couldnt refuse. Keen to brew on it this weekend.

 

[theQuinny]

Also I feel like the handy is way too small. It just slips out of the holes everytime. Lifting up the mash tun was more difficult than it needed to be. That is literally my only issue though.

I think I know what the problem is ... Have a look at that piece of 5mm round wire that goes around the top of the urn (where the feet of the malt pipe will sit when you lift it out). When you put the handle in the malt pipe, make sure you're not getting tangled up with that before lifting. You'll see the handle go in correctly when you get it right. I dropped mine twice before I figured it out.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I don't recall what size the hole is in the Robobrew but if it is a 10 mm hole get rid of the handle and use a piece of all thread, that is what I have done in the Guten. This is the Brau wolf but it is the same as the Guten.