All Apple Cider

[manticle]

I'm wanting to make a cider from apples (different types) and maybe some organic apple juice. I may add a tin of pale malt and some dextrose.

As of yet I haven't worked out the full recipe but searching for all juice apple ciders suggests campden tablets are often used to kill wild yeasts.

I'm likely to boil my apples and any malt I my or may not add so if I do this will I still need to use campden?

My concern is that sodium metasulphite gives a weird sulphuric flvour to cider if not rinsed after use so campden (usually described as potassium metasulphite) might have a similar effect.

Is boiling enough to kill wild yeasts and bacteria from fruit?

 

[Bizier]

Boiling will kill a bunch of desired aromas and you will get a cooked apple flavour.

Sodium/potassium met are AFAIK able to be treated as essentially the same thing.

If you dose it correctly, you should be able to kill most wild yeast etc and it will mostly evaporate off. But yes, it will "contain sulphites" like commercial wines and ciders.

I am unsure what you want malt and dex in there.

Just my 2c of course

 

[Supra-Jim]

Malt will add a little body to the cider, but you really don't want to be putting very much in at all. Especially as you seem to be going to the effort of ogranising fresh juice. Just throw yeast in and ferment that.

Dex will bump up your alcohol content, and thats about it. All depends how strong you want it.

Remember also that there is very little nutrient for the yeast in juice, so you will need to add yeast nutrient to the mix.

:icon_cheers: SJ

 

[tcraig20]

Boiling will kill a bunch of desired aromas and you will get a cooked apple flavour.

Also, you could end up with a significant pectin haze problem if you boil your apples.

 

[manticle]

Malt will add a little body to the cider, but you really don't want to be putting very much in at all. Especially as you seem to be going to the effort of ogranising fresh juice. Just throw yeast in and ferment that.

Dex will bump up your alcohol content, and thats about it. All depends how strong you want it.

Remember also that there is very little nutrient for the yeast in juice, so you will need to add yeast nutrient to the mix.

:icon_cheers: SJ

Thanks all. I'll avoid boiling then. Malt is for body and dex to add alcohol and some dryness but I'm making this up based on pieces of information gleaned from everywhere rather than from any real knowledge or experience. Cider kits I've come across contain malts so I based the idea partly on that. Maybe I'll just try apples - at least then I can give a bottle to my coeliac mum.

The first time I ever made a kit based cider it reacted with the sodium met steriliser and gave a sulphuric odour to the finished product which I hope to avoid. I guess I'll just see how I go with the campden.

 

[drsmurto]

Thanks all. I'll avoid boiling then. Malt is for body and dex to add alcohol and some dryness but I'm making this up based on pieces of information gleaned from everywhere rather than from any real knowledge or experience. Cider kits I've come across contain malts so I based the idea partly on that. Maybe I'll just try apples - at least then I can give a bottle to my coeliac mum.

The first time I ever made a kit based cider it reacted with the sodium met steriliser and gave a sulphuris odour to the finished product which I hope to avoid. I guess I'll just see how I go with the campden.

Sodium met sanitiser will produce SO2 when added to water. Your kit has nothing to do with it.

This odour (SO2) dissipates over 24-48h.

When making cider from apples i juiced all the apples and let the juice sit in a fermenter with 1 campden tablet. 24-48 hours later i rack the juice into another fermenter leaving behind the thick crusty layer that forms on the top.

Then i pitch a yeast - Wyeast 4766 is the only one i will use for ciders.

Franko is the cider master and adds small amounts of malt extract to his cider.

You dont need to add dextrose to dry it out, apple juice will ferment out dry by itself.

You should add some nutrient as mentioned to help the yeast along.

Have fun!

Cheers
DrSmurto

 

[manticle]

Sodium met sanitiser will produce SO2 when added to water. Your kit has nothing to do with it.

This odour (SO2) dissipates over 24-48h.

When making cider from apples i juiced all the apples and let the juice sit in a fermenter with 1 campden tablet. 24-48 hours later i rack the juice into another fermenter leaving behind the thick crusty layer that forms on the top.

Then i pitch a yeast - Wyeast 4766 is the only one i will use for ciders.

Franko is the cider master and adds small amounts of malt extract to his cider.

You dont need to add dextrose to dry it out, apple juice will ferment out dry by itself.

You should add some nutrient as mentioned to help the yeast along.

Have fun!

Cheers
DrSmurto

Not blaming the kit - I just realised why the smell was there after reading something on the back of a black rock cider kit that equated sulphur fumes with unrinsed sod. met.

Your method looks similar to some recipes I found for some breton ciders so I may head along those lines. I have a Champagne yeast and some nutrient which I was thinking of using. The wyyeast range gets mentioned so often on here that I may need to hunt some up.

 

[drsmurto]

Not blaming the kit - I just realised why the smell was there after reading something on the back of a black rock cider kit that equated sulphur fumes with unrinsed sod. met.

Your method looks similar to some recipes I found for some breton ciders so I may head along those lines. I have a Champagne yeast and some nutrient which I was thinking of using. The wyyeast range gets mentioned so often on here that I may need to hunt some up.

Breton ciders, now you are talking!

I lived in Rennes, france for 6 months and drank plenty of the local cider whilst munching on galettes and crepes.

French cider apples are my next step in this quest.

 

[tyoung]

I think Ross at Craftbrewer generally stocks the Wyeast 4766. I got it from him last time

Well worth a try - the results were better than Champagne yeast IMO.

 

[komodo]

Ive just put down a cider made with fresh apples juiced to make 26L plus 500grams LDME and 200grams of dextrose.
I added some campden tablets then 48 hours latter pitched wyeast 4766.

Nos just to play the waiting game.
Little concerned, as gravity was 1.090, that I might have close on apple wine on my hands but that should be ok if I dilute it out with some berri apple juice when it comes time to keg.

 

[boingk]

Don't worry about diluting it. Just carbonate at high pressure and you'll have champagne on your hands. Happened to me once with a batch of high-alc cider, bottled in plastic at 1.020 and it went down to <1.000

Good stuff...be keen to hear how it comes out with the fresh apples and all.

- boingk

 

[manticle]

Breton ciders, now you are talking!

I lived in Rennes, france for 6 months and drank plenty of the local cider whilst munching on galettes and crepes.

French cider apples are my next step in this quest.

This link which has been posted on this forum before has some good information but if it's not too annoying I'd love some clarification (I apologise for the bad pun there)


If I'm reading correctly I crush/juice the apples, then leave the resulting fluid in a fermenter for 5 days to clarify. Do I add the Campden at this point?

I then transfer the 'wort' to a different vessel. Do I add the yeast at this point?

Thanks. Sorry if that's dumb.

 

[drsmurto]

This link which has been posted on this forum before has some good information but if it's not too annoying I'd love some clarification (I apologise for the bad pun there)


If I'm reading correctly I crush/juice the apples, then leave the resulting fluid in a fermenter for 5 days to clarify. Do I add the Campden at this point?

I then transfer the 'wort' to a different vessel. Do I add the yeast at this point?

Thanks. Sorry if that's dumb.

Link?

Assuming its this one then there is one major difference.

Breton cider, like a lot of traditional ciders is fermented using the wild yeast that are found on the apples.

Adding a campden tablet will kill those.

But, the procedure i use is still similar in that i leave the juice in a fermenter for 1-2 days but with the campden tablet already added. I dont crush/press my apples, i use a juicer.

After 1-2 days there is a layer formed on top of the juice. I rack off the clear juice from under that and THEN add the yeast.

Cheers
DrSmurto

 

[manticle]

Link?

Assuming its this one then there is one major difference.

Breton cider, like a lot of traditional ciders is fermented using the wild yeast that are found on the apples.

Adding a campden tablet will kill those.

But, the procedure i use is still similar in that i leave the juice in a fermenter for 1-2 days but with the campden tablet already added. I dont crush/press my apples, i use a juicer.

After 1-2 days there is a layer formed on top of the juice. I rack off the clear juice from under that and THEN add the yeast.

Cheers
DrSmurto

That's the one. Forgot to ctrl+v.

I was going to ask about using the wild yeasts but thought maybe I should make the first one a bit simpler.

 

[drsmurto]

That's the one. Forgot to ctrl+v.

I was going to ask about using the wild yeasts but thought maybe I should make the first one a bit simpler.

Go for Wyeast 4766 and get a few ciders under your belt before you tackle wild yeasts.

And, if you do go wild yeast, make sure you either thoroughly wash your apples or go organic.

 

[komodo]

Guys sorry for the hijack
Quick question - My cider is getting a really suphury (is that a word?) smell - like rotten eggs.
Is this something I should be concerned about (its been fermenting since Sunday about 6pm). I'm lead to believe that this is caused by a lack of nitrogen.

I believe that this can be remedied by adding a yeast nutrient - should I add some nutrient now or is it too late?

 

[manticle]

Guys sorry for the hijack
Quick question - My cider is getting a really suphury (is that a word?) smell - like rotten eggs.
Is this something I should be concerned about (its been fermenting since Sunday about 6pm). I'm lead to believe that this is caused by a lack of nitrogen.

I believe that this can be remedied by adding a yeast nutrient - should I add some nutrient now or is it too late?

Did you use Sodium Metasulphite to sanitise and did you rinse?

@Dr Smurto: Last question (at least for now): When juicing your apples do you remove core and bitter seeds?

Thanks for the hints and tips thus far.

 

[komodo]

Manticle - yes and yes

 

[drsmurto]

Sodium metabisulphite.

You dont 'rinse'. You add it to the juice. It produces SO2 which kills any yeast present.

My juicer is takes whole apples. Quick and easy. No coring etc. I just wash them first and away i go.

 

[Supra-Jim]

Komodo,

I had a similar sulphury smell start emitting from the fermenter about 2 days into the ferment. Unfortunately it was still there at the end.. However the cider tasted fine, no weird flavours. Most of the sulphur smell was evident just as it was poured and CO2 was escaping. Anyway, i took it off tap for a few weeks (for other reasons) and when i did get around to reconnecting it again, alot of the smell was gone.

Buggered if i know what it was.

:icon_cheers: SJ