Ale yeast + Lager

[Kezzbot]

My basement sits at around 18-20 degrees which is great for ales but i want to try a lager as summer approaches.

Can i put a ale yeast in a lager and if so what would the disadvantages be?

 

[MHB]

It wouldn't be a Lager it would be an Ale.
If you want to make Lager you need Lager yeast and the appropriate temperature control.
There is a very good reason why making lager on a mass market basis and the invention of decent refrigeration came at the same time. Before that they could only brew Lager in winter and store the beer in icy caves up in the mountains, or make Ale.
Mark

 

[Kezzbot]

Ok, so if i used a Coopers Lager tin with some Ale yeast it would make a nice light summer ale?

 

[scomet]

G’day Kezzzbot,

To answer your question 1/ Yes 2/ None (imho) hence the term faux lager. Many a German beer lover will be hurling abuse but I think you can make beautiful Faux Lagers using ale yeasts for summer. Its a much simpler process, join a German brewing group on facebook and plagiarise their hop additions then use pilsner or pale malts and your favourite ale yeast! brew beers you like :-}

scomet….

 

[MHB]

Ok, so if i used a Coopers Lager tin with some Ale yeast it would make a nice light summer ale?

Yes, your brewing ability aside (sorry scomet). Its a bit like picking Chardonnay grapes to make Cabernet, that might be too close more like trying to crossbreed Zebra and Donkeys.
Lager yeast is genetically different to ale having one and a half or two times the genome (there are two families of Lager last I heard called Heineken and non-Heineken, based on the lab where the work was done, sponsored by...). Lager is a hybrid of an ale yeast and a a wild yeast found in beach trees (only identified wild in Patagonia- so far)
Ale and Lager yeast have different abilities to metaboilse some sugars (well saccharides) will produce different byproducts under different conditions.
Its a pretty fundamental difference.
OK we can make fizzy white wine just by carbonating and packaging, does that make it Champagne?
We can make a light bodied easy drinking low ester pale ale for summer quaffing - yes (I do) is it a Lager?
Not to my mind without using Lager yeast and the Lager making process, bit like méthode champenoise is needed to make Champagne and part of that is Champagne yeast.
Mark

 

[kadmium]

My basement sits at around 18-20 degrees which is great for ales but i want to try a lager as summer approaches.

Can i put a ale yeast in a lager and if so what would the disadvantages be?

Hey mate, just to expand a bit on the other great advice, and also to reiterate what has been stated. What makes a Lager is the yeast that is used. Ale yeasts are (generally in general) a top fermenting yeast that ferment around 16c+

Lager yeast are a bottom fermenting yeast that usually ferment much colder (8-12c) and are then 'lagered' for a period of time. You also should introduce Diacetyl rests etc for cleanliness.

There are some great examples of non-lager, clean drinking ales but they are just that. An ale. It's like a muffin and a cake. You can make muffins with cake batter but they are called cupcakes. Not quite the same thing.

If you want to do a lager you have two options (watch me, i'm about to get flamed to a crisp)
1. Proper temperature control. Cold fermentation, diacetyl rests and all the proper techniques. (recommended)

or

2. Pressure ferment. There are videos out there of 5 day lagers. Brewed at 20c under pressure, which suppresses esters. I will be giving this a go in summer because, **** it why not?

For interest, have a look here:

Larry's Beer n BBQ 11 day Lager

and

Dr Han's 3 day Lager

both great examples of hot fermented, pressurised lager. There will be people on here who flip their lollies about pressure 'stressing yeast' and other crap, but if you don't have access to ferm control, I would suggest a pressure fermenter like a KK Snub Nose or a KL All Rounder, with a spunding valve will set you back $100 and off you go.

Bear in mind, pressure fermenting is really aimed at kegging, so if you bottle then it's probably out of the equation but still a consideration for other.

LET THE FLAMES BEGIN!

 

[Kezzbot]

Thanks for the great info.

2. Pressure ferment. There are videos out there of 5 day lagers. Brewed at 20c under pressure, which suppresses esters. I will be giving this a go in summer because, **** it why not?

For interest, have a look here:

Larry's Beer n BBQ 11 day Lager

yes I pressure ferment and have seen that first vid.

I think ill give it a try!

 

[kadmium]

Thanks for the great info.



yes I pressure ferment and have seen that first vid.

I think ill give it a try!

You're not supposed to say that out loud... but please let me know how you go!

 

[Kezzbot]

ill definitly follow up and post some pics

 

[butisitart]

'
ill definitly follow up and post some pics

as they say above, lager is lager, ale is not. faux lager is for people like us in the sub tropics with no lager lab in the garage.
and you can make some really really good ones.
one of mine was 100% weyermans premium pale malt (lowest ebc i could find) with wyeast kolsch (ale yeast). that's it. and low scale hops with hallertau. did it as an experiment. it was the colour of sauvignon blanc, super fine bubbles like champagne and looked pretty bland. it was actually super delicate with malt and hops both just teasing the palate. and blew a few mates' sideways looks off their shoulders. sensational brew. going to emulate that one this summer, if i can.
so yeah, lager's nice, but you can do just as well with ale yeast on a lager recipe

 

[Kezzbot]

Nice!

Now I'm going to have to experiment with lager with a ale yeast and lager with lager yeast.

 

[MHB]

Hey mate, just to expand a bit on the other great advice, and also to reiterate what has been stated. What makes a Lager is the yeast that is used. Ale yeasts are (generally in general) a top fermenting yeast that ferment around 16c+

Lager yeast are a bottom fermenting yeast that usually ferment much colder (8-12c) and are then 'lagered' for a period of time. You also should introduce Diacetyl rests etc for cleanliness.

There are some great examples of non-lager, clean drinking ales but they are just that. An ale. It's like a muffin and a cake. You can make muffins with cake batter but they are called cupcakes. Not quite the same thing.

If you want to do a lager you have two options (watch me, i'm about to get flamed to a crisp)
Snip

LET THE FLAMES BEGIN!

Get the font right if you want to be that controversial!
For me the results aren't in on the merits of pressure fermentation for Lager (not good for Ale).
To me/my palate it makes the beer different, but not just in only good ways, clearly lots of extra Acetaldehyde and beers prone to grassy flavours really get a dose of lawn... few other faults that I find annoying.
Appears to work best for beer with the lowest flavour (both malt and hop) as well as yeast traits. So far I think its a great idea if you want to make 1or2A but I'm more a 3(all of them and a bit of 4,5&6 to) sort of drinker.
Not so convinced about the benefits in bigger lagers.
Each to their own, still think you make better Lager low and slow but hey your brewing for you not me.
Mark

 

[kadmium]

View attachment 118863
Get the font right if you want to be that controversial!
For me the results aren't in on the merits of pressure fermentation for Lager (not good for Ale).
To me/my palate it makes the beer different, but not just in only good ways, clearly lots of extra Acetaldehyde and beers prone to grassy flavours really get a dose of lawn... few other faults that I find annoying.
Appears to work best for beer with the lowest flavour (both malt and hop) as well as yeast traits. So far I think its a great idea if you want to make 1or2A but I'm more a 3(all of them and a bit of 4,5&6 to) sort of drinker.
Not so convinced about the benefits in bigger lagers.
Each to their own, still think you make better Lager low and slow but hey your brewing for you not me.
Mark

I agree that the old ways are probably better, but don't forget that lagers are a bottom fermenting yeast and for each foot of fermenter height pressure increases by 1PSI so the big old breweries are all fermenting under pressure. Some of those tanks are well above 6ft so the yeast down below are well and truly under pressure.

I also don't think that "the results are in" for pressure on ale yeast. I ferment regularly under pressure and I love it. I'm talking 8-10PSI at 18c.

I still follow the yeasts typical range but usually run on the edge of the top end recommendations. For instance I have a NEIPA under 10PSI at 19c as we speak. 3rd generation Imperial Dry Hop (Conan and Citrus blend) and it's ******* delicious.

In fact, pretty sure Chris White stated that under 30PSI the only down side to pressure is reduced phenols and esters.

 

[MHB]

I've seen yeast propagators bigger than 6" fermenters closer to 60 meters tall and yes the yeast is under pressure.
If you want to get technical its P(in kPa)= Ro*g*h, Ro being density so say 1.050, g being acceleration due to gravity, 9.81m/s^2 and the height in meters. The yeast at the bottom of a 10m fermenter with 1.050 wort would be at 1.050*10*9.81 = 103.kPa or 1 Bar (14PSI for the luddites)
Not really the point
Its the ability or inability of undesirable products escaping that concerns me most.
Mark

 

[kadmium]

I've seen yeast propagators bigger than 6" fermenters closer to 60 meters tall and yes the yeast is under pressure.
If you want to get technical its P(in kPa)= Ro*g*h, Ro being density so say 1.050, g being acceleration due to gravity, 9.81m/s^2 and the height in meters. The yeast at the bottom of a 10m fermenter with 1.050 wort would be at 1.050*10*9.81 = 103.kPa or 1 Bar (14PSI for the luddites)
Not really the point
Its the ability or inability of undesirable products escaping that concerns me most.
Mark

Have you ever pressure fermented? Cause i was sceptical but it's great for certain things.

 

[Kezzbot]

Its the ability or inability of undesirable products escaping that concerns me most.
Mark

I pressure ferment between 10 and 12 PSI as soon as that pressure is built up it starts venting and continues to vent throughout the ferment, so gases are escaping. whether it's produces less or more of some gases because under pressure, I guess is the unknown.

All I know is I've been brewing and pressure fermenting for 3 months now and I've been extremely happy with the results. my beers have been as good or if not better than commercial.

 

[MHB]

kadium, yes have tried doing a couple of small batches under pressure. There were noticeable changes to the beer, not necessarily a bad thing, nor universally desirable. Personal opinion has been expressed enough times but in summary - not good for ales, best for very low flavour lager style beers on a very short production cycle (think mass market crap), which I have no interest in brewing.

Kezzbot, you need to look at partial pressure and how it affects solubility, try and get your head around steam distillation. You can extract higher boiling point (less volatile) components of a solution with steam (or CO2), the physics of it is pretty interesting.
I have noticed a distinct increase in DMS and Acetaldehyde, enough to require remedial actions. Also an increase in grassy flavours. All of these and a bunch of others are normally scrubbed out (largely) by freely evolved CO2.
Still not convinced that increasing the amount of dissolved CO2 is good for yeast...

Got no problems with bunging (closing off near the end of ferment) to bring the beer into condition, by then undesirable volatiles have been stripped out, admittedly with some good smells to - but that's brewing.
Mark

PS
Should have said, I noticed a distinct increase in Sulphur smells in some pressure fermented beers (not the ones I made - others I have sampled), I suspect that comes down to yeast choice. I tend to select very low Sulphur producing yeast strains as I find H2S very unpleasant in beer (well generally pretty nasty). Might be colouring my thinking a bit.
M

 

[yankinoz]

To get back to the original question, there are lagers fermented at ale temps. With most lager yeasts the results are awful. Years ago some small US breweries made hurry-up lagers at ale temps, did little lagering and sold them cheap. They were nasty. From the bia hoi brewing I saw in Vietnam, the same happens, but other brewers there may do better. A while back I read something from CUB that bragged how fermenting at 18 with their special yeast gives VB its unique flavour. The post disappeared, but if you like VB (gack), take heart.

On a brighter note, California commons such as Anchor Steam Beer are brewed with lager yeasts, often at 18. The beers are good, the taste to me transitional between ales and lagers. You can get those yeasts in liquid form. Among dry yeaats, S-123 has a reputation for tolerating ale temps. I've used it at 14 with good results, but I lagered for a couple of months. If I recall a post here correctly, Ross Kendrick (Bacchus, Craftbrewer) used it 18 and entered in a lager contest.