AG Hoegaarden

[NewtownClown]

From my research and tasting I am pretty sure that 3944 or WLP 400 were made from the Hoegaarden yeast

Hoegaarden wit, sure.
Forbidden Fruit is also from Hoegaarden, from their Verboden Vrucht, to be precise

 

[Truman42]

Techno - I used Raw wheat after trying flaked, torrified and malted. The Raw really improves the beer, i had previoulsy posted in another thread that i would change that but after finihsing the keg and bottles its staying in the recipe.... h34r: . Ive been step mashing on the BM, mashing in at 20c for about a 30 min hydration rest with the pump running and stopping at 40c/10, 52c/10 and going for a longer rest at 66c/90.

I have had lower efficiency % with the higher raw wheat content and would lower the raw wheat malt content to 50% for the next brew. I have found that the oats give a good smoothness to the finished beer.

Newtown - i havent tried one with the just the Belgian Witbier so i cant compare but the aroma from this yeast and the overall flavour of the beer give me no reason to not use it.

Thanks for the info Pratty, so your recipe is
Pilsener 40%
raw wheat 50%
oats10%

Im currently building up a starter of yeast from some Hoegaarden slurry as Ive read this works well to produce the flavour but if it doesnt work will use the forbidden fruit.
I will also follow your mash schedule with this but do you use a mash out step at all?

Also where do you get raw wheat from as it doesnt seeem that G&G, KK or Core brewing sell it. Do health food shops sell it?

thanks heaps.

 

[RelaxedBrewer]

Im currently building up a starter of yeast from some Hoegaarden slurry as Ive read this works well to produce the flavour but if it doesnt work will use the forbidden fruit.

I am pretty sure the Hoegaarden changed their bottling yeast a few years ago. They now filter and then add a different yeast for bottling.

 

[HBHB]

Don't forget a touch of chamomile if you want a "clone".

 

[Truman42]

I am pretty sure the Hoegaarden changed their bottling yeast a few years ago. They now filter and then add a different yeast for bottling.

Ah ok then. The post i read may have been a few years old then.

 

[Truman42]

Don't forget a touch of chamomile if you want a "clone".

How much is a touch in a 25 litre batch?

 

[HBHB]

Not sure Truman. There's lots of chat about it being an important component in a clone, but i'd be keeping it pretty low key in the overall flavour if trying to clone the original product.

http://byo.com/stories/item/1647-witbier-style-profile

Link talks about only small doses, which makes sense with it having a fairly strong flavour.

It should show up in a google search for what guys have tried dose-wise.

Should put it up on a to-re-do list again sometime before summer. In fact will do one as soon as the bitter orange peel comes back in stock. Great quick keg filler.

Cheers
M

 

[Dan Pratt]

Im sipping on a hoegaarden right now, its bloody good! I can say that the belgian witbiers I have brewed are some off the best beers I have made, that's because i wasnt trying to replicate the mentioned beer, I just made it to style. B)

I just went onto my beersmith and checked the detail - 60% raw, 30% Pils and 10% oats. I get the Raw wheat from Newcastle LHBS - Marks Homebrew. I also use EKG hops for 60 mins in the boil to 15-18Ibu, tried saaz but went back to EKG.

 

[technobabble66]

With the orange peel, how important is it to use "bitter orange" peel?
Can I just use the zest from 5 fresh oranges (for 20L batch)? I'm keen for this as I've got a few homegrown blood oranges to test out ;-)

 

[Dan2]

With the orange peel, how important is it to use "bitter orange" peel?
Can I just use the zest from 5 fresh oranges (for 20L batch)? I'm keen for this as I've got a few homegrown blood oranges to test out ;-)

Can't comment on the bitter peel, but I've made it with fresh peel from bought valencia/navel and it tastes good.
The first time I peeled fresh then dried it to see what the wet:dry ratio would be. Works out to be pretty much 3:1
So I used 20g dry, then next time 60g fresh (20L)

 

[seamad]

Thanks for that dan, wondered what the wet/dry ratio was.
Any citrus peel will do, I've used orange, mandarin, tangerine, and a little bit of lime. All pretty good. I tend to err on the less is better principle and use 15g of peel split into a 10 min and a cube addition. Coriander also requires a light touch imo as too much ruins the beer.

 

[Dan Pratt]

Im with you Seamad on the coriander, Im going to back to 7g/10min for a 20lt brew, I went with 10g on the last 2 brews and I can now tell what that is, likely to bump the orange zest up to 12g/10min, small increments.

Thanks Dan2 - i like the idea of using some fresh orange< i have read that before on the IS websites.... How do you get that from the orange peel? i have read you should only grate the orange part and not the white of the peel??

 

[HBHB]

With the orange peel, how important is it to use "bitter orange" peel?
Can I just use the zest from 5 fresh oranges (for 20L batch)? I'm keen for this as I've got a few homegrown blood oranges to test out ;-)

It's all relative Techno. Commercially, most tend to use the curacao orange peel because it has a bitter finish. I've used a few different ones, each has their own addition and add their own signature.

True to style, I think it'd be bitter as first choice, but it's not an absolute necessity and frankly, without experimentation, brewing's going nowhere.

Must say, IMHO, the bitter does add a nice edge. I've also tried mandarine and lime zest which were pretty good. I also tried some sour orange peel from an Asian grocer and it was nothing short of spectacularly bloody awful. That one fed the gardens.

Next Wit will get a small dose of Chamomile Flowers and the Bitter together, just to see how they work in comparison.

No Rulz Brewz

Martin

 

[RelaxedBrewer]

I have always used the zest from fresh oranges (never tired the bitter peel). I have found that the flavour from the orange peel can vary a fair bit. It must depend on the amount of oils in the peel or something. Now I use the zest of 3 oranges in a 20L batch and taste after primary fermentation is complete. If there is not enough of the orange flavour I dry hop/peel with some more for a couple of days.

Also make sure you do not add the white pith from the orange as it has a very unpleasant bitter flavour. I just use a potato peeler and try to only remove the orange surface and leave the white behind.

 

[technobabble66]

This might be a silly question, but ... why do we not use the "citrus flavour/aroma" hops - like citra, etc - in this style??

I'm assuming it's because of the excessive bittering the hops add (to get the flavour input, i believe you'd need to add them at the 15-20min mark, so you'd get some moderate bitterness out of the hops).

I was wondering simply because it sounds like this bitter "curacao peel" is the better option due to the slight bitterness it adds to the balance. (though obviously fresh or non-curacao seems to work well, also). Maybe this could carefully be done using Citra, etc?

Has anyone experimented with using the citrus hops in a Hoey clone?


Btw, thanks for the great answers for my many questions - you're v quickly clarifying a few things i've been unsure of for a while (& hopefully others!), & i'm looking at a hoey clone for the next brew.

 

[RelaxedBrewer]

Well, I would say that even though we use words like citrus to describe hops they have a different flavour to actual citrus zest. If you want something true to style I don't think you would get it by using hops instead of zest. It might be good, just a bit different though.

Witbeir is one of my all time favourite beers and the beer that I have worked on the most. My latest brew was very very close to Hoegaargen when doing a side by side comparison (mine had slightly more of raw wheat flavour and was obviously a bit fresher). In that batch I used plain flour as the raw wheat. I am going to enter it into the vicbrew comp and see what they say. Some of the citrus and spice flavours are fading with time but hopefully the last enough till then.

I am almost out of that batch and I am brewing my next batch this weekend. I can let you know how this one goes.

 

[NewtownClown]

When it comes to coriander seeds I always crush a few and taste and smell them. Some are fresher than others and they degrade considerably over time. One size doesn't fit all... I have used from 10g to 25g

Also, there are two types of coriander seed, Indian and "other" (European?). The Indian are almost oval and are usually found in Asian groceries. It was either Mosher or Zainasheff that said they impart a better spice note whilst too much of the 'other" coriander can give a celery seed taste.

 

[RelaxedBrewer]

When it comes to coriander seeds I always crush a few and taste and smell them. Some are fresher than others and they degrade considerably over time. One size doesn't fit all... I have used from 10g to 25g

Also, there are two types of coriander seed, Indian and "other" (European?). The Indian are almost oval and are usually found in Asian groceries. It was either Mosher or Zainasheff that said they impart a better spice note whilst too much of the 'other" coriander can give a celery seed taste.

I have to agree 100% with this. I have also used 10-28g depending on the coriander. It really depends on how fresh the seeds are and how strong they started.

You want the type that smells citrusy when you crush it. I have actually been using my on coriander that I dried from a plant I let go to seed.

 

[Black Devil Dog]

My one and only dumper was a wit attempt, I can't recall the exact recipe, other than it was a K&K brew. I think the killer though, was putting about 20g of navel orange peel and 20 g of crushed coriander into the fermenter for the duration of the ferment. :icon_vomit:

It was a ******* howler. Seriously, it felt like my teeth were being dissolved as I drank it.

I've recently tried again, this time A.G and there has been some improvement, except for a sort of faint "ham" aroma. :huh:

 

[Dan2]

.. Dan2 .... How do you get that from the orange peel? i have read you should only grate the orange part and not the white of the peel??

I used a very sharp thin knife and a little patience. Tried a zester briefly but just made a mess. Yep - leave the pith behind

I've recently tried again, this time A.G and there has been some improvement, except for a sort of faint "ham" aroma. :huh:

Wy 3944 can work slowly. My first took about 8-10 days to hit FG, and another 4-5 for krausen to drop. Those last days were critical - yeast cleaned up their mess. At day 10 it tasted foul. 2nd one (on repitched slurry) worked quicker, but krausen still stayed high, plenty of gas still in solution, and REALLY muddy until the 2 week mark.


My only gripe with the style is - not a good kegger. I'm at about 1/3 - 1/2 a keg left and it's clearing up (yeast slowly settled and drawn out with first half. And the suspended yeast is a big part of the flavour/mouthfeel. I'll be looking at bottling :angry: Wit in the future