After advice on getting longer lasting hop flavor

[hermtrails]

I did a kit beer few months back that had 15g willamette and 15g cascade which I added into the boil (brew lend and wheat malt) for the last 2 minutes and then let steep for 15 mins before adding to fermenter. The beer turned out nice but lacked much hop aroma or flavor. I then dry hopped the keg with more cascade and after only 2 days the beer smelt fantastic and had much better flavor. After 4 days I removed the hop bag as I realised that I had possibly out more than necessary. Anyway, after 1-2 weeks it had lost most if the aroma and hop taste.
I would like to get more initial hop flavor into the brew and am just wondering what the best way to go about this is.
I will dry hop in the keg still if it is necessary.
Any advice will be great thanks

 

[Yob]

Add more... Everywhere...

 

[Lincoln2]

^ Yep, I'm not a hop head but I generally go a little bit over, especially when dry hopping. Also, bang some in early, say at 30 minutes.

 

[droid]

you keg so, randalise mofo!

http://www.filtersfast.com/blog/index.php/tag/randall-beer-filter/

 

[lukiferj]

Keg hop ftw. Do this in almost all my beers. Adds a lot of aroma and flavour.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Keep doing it and take the notes. Some win and some just get the ok. The most lasting hoppyness was my Harvest Ale with all fresh picked Cascade hops through the brew and 200g In the keg. Second to that was Mosaic Pellets for 40% bittering at 60min, and 60% at flame out. I also think this beer may have been a little underpitched with recycled yeast. I took all notes and still trying to work out why???
These are kegged beers that I also bottled and kept in fridge for over 6 months. A personal test and these 2 mentioned are totally outstanding in lasting hop aroma/flavour. I think there's only 3 left now.

 

[idzy]

More 0 min additions will impart heaps of flavour and dry hopping will add heaps too.

+1 for more hops. Try 100g @ 0mins for a standard batch.

 

[hermtrails]

All good advice so far thanks guys. So late additions and dry hopping adds more flavor and aroma compared to earlier in the boil?

 

[idzy]

All good advice so far thanks guys. So late additions and dry hopping adds more flavor and aroma compared to earlier in the boil?

Absolutely. Flavour additions will usually appear from 15-20mins down to 0mins. Bittering from 30-90mins. The same hop could be bitter @ 90 mins, but could be flavourful, fruity and floral @ 0 mins.

Edit: 30 mins will give you a measure of IBUs and flavour. There will be an element of each at each end of the spectrum, don't want to sound too dogmatic.

 

[hermtrails]

Fantastic. I'll have a play around with different additions and I'm sure I'll get the result I'm after eventually

 

[MichaelM]

Yeast levels also impacts on hop flavours remaining in the beer. Try dry hopping in a secondary fermenter where yeast levels are lower.

 

[idzy]

Yeast levels also impacts on hop flavours remaining in the beer. Try dry hopping in a secondary fermenter where yeast levels are lower.

Agree and I dry hop in secondary, but I would say this is a hot topic for debate. The main factor is ensuring fermentation has slowed before adding hops but not totally ceased, as I believe the co2 gases being let off from the ferment will strip some aroma out of the beer.

The flip side of the argument is that a) secondary is unnecessary, b.) dry hoping in primary is fine, and c) that dry hopping once fermentation has completed will risk oxidisation.

 

[technobabble66]

E) the yeast can biotransform some hops compounds - many of these products believed by some to be desirable for both flavour and impact.
F) as the yeast drops it drags hops compounds down with it to be lost from the beer (as Michael suggests). The CO2 scrubbing is generally a much bigger factor than this, but it's still a probable factor.

2c

 

[Dae Tripper]

How big was the boil and approximately what SG? The size of the boil and SG both effect hop utilization. Bigger boils and wort at approximately 1040 yeild better results.

 

[mondestrunken]

An article in BYO magazine a while back suggested that oxygenation also tends to degrade hop flavour and aroma, with the suggestion to reduce pickup of oxygen whenever possible.

 

[goldstar]

This is certainly true. Nothing kills hop flavour like oxygen. Prevent/limit as much as possible oxygen pick-up during transfer between fermenter and kegs.

 

[Yob]

With me being in front of my kegs a little now. I've taken to transferring with a couple of points to go. If it's hitting the keg while still active, and you keg hop at that point. It's likely that any oxygen will be taken up by the yeast...

Naturally, I don't always keg hop as soon as I rack, but I think I should..

 

[mofox1]

Wait-what? You transfer before you've hit FG?

What process do you follow to ensure complete fermentation and cleanup?... Flush keg with CO2 and keep at ambient for a week or so?

Definitely intrigued, tell us more.

 

[Yob]

Yep, essentially that.

When the yeast drops back and I'm a few points off, rack, purge, seal and Chuck em under the bench till just before I want them.

 

[hermtrails]

How big was the boil and approximately what SG? The size of the boil and SG both effect hop utilization. Bigger boils and wort at approximately 1040 yeild better results.

im doing kits atm so recipe was as follows... brought brewblend 15 and 150g wheat malt to the boil in 3-5 litres (no idea, didn't measure water at time or record that part) and simmered for a few minutes. turned heat off and added 15g Willamette and 15g cascade and steeped for 15 mins. I had some cool water in the fermenter and strained the wort into it + added 1.7kg black rock pilsener blonde. I brought volume up to 21.5L and pitched nottingham yeast at 25c and into fridge at 18c for 11 days then cold crash to 3.5c for 4 days before kegging.
sg was 1052 and fg was 1015.
I use 10L kegs so put half and half brew in. I overcarbed the first one trying to force carb and ended uo burping the keg for a week. the second keg was hooked up at serving pressure and is the keg I dry hopped about 2-3 weeks in with 30g cascade.

as a side note which coopers can do you think I could substitute the black rock pilsener blonde for?
thanks for your help everyone!