Advanced Biab With Stepping And Decoction

[yardy]

Sparge in a nappy bucket. My system is set up for a 60min boil which results in a cube plus a schott bottle or two to use in a starter or post cube hop boil. However, as this is going to be a 90 minute boil, not to mention a mofo headbanger job not unlike malt liquor, a dunk-sparge in a nappy bucket, plus my BribieExtractor wort press will give better efficiency with the added advantage that it will produce a bit more wort to put back into the kettle. So this will yield - after boiling - my "normal" volume that I would get with a 60 min boil.

so 2 vessels plus a bag press of some kind ?

sorry i'm not having a crack but isn't the biab mantra 'simplicity' ?

Yard

 

[Bribie G]

I don't do the mantra - most brew days consist of periods of boredom punctuated by furious activity, then back to boredom. Sparge, wort press etc gives me something to do while ramping up to boil.
Just my way of getting wort with increased efficiency (in this particular case).

90% of my brews are isothermal infusion mashes, no sparge anyway. BIAB can be as simple or as complex as you feel like doing for a particular recipe / style.

edit: if you were going to have a mantra it would be along the lines of "traditionally the wort is removed from the grain, with BIAB the grain is removed from the wort"

 

[Nick JD]

Isn't the eskie mash tun matra "Crap - I wish I could apply heat to my mash"?

 

[Bribie G]

Isn't the eskie mash tun matra "Crap - I wish I could apply heat to my mash"?

That's why they go HERMS
or at least why they used to go HERMS

:icon_cheers:

 

[RdeVjun]

Can be if you want it to yardy, but I prefer to think of BIAB as a lautering method, not a philosophy. As with most methods, everyone's got their own interpretation- some folks feel the single infusion stock BIAB is the be all and end all for BIAB, and sure that has its features (eg. simplicity), but there's other processes which can be incorporated with ease if the brewer feels the benefit is there. I've been decocting BIABs for over a year, the additional effort is well worth it IMO, however most often I'm using 100% pils malt for ultra- pale comp lagers.
+1 for pulling the decoct with a sieve and draining the rich liquor, however some water is required in the decoction boil- us stovetoppers (i.e. limited MT space) can run into strife if allowances aren't made for that additional volume, so I mash in quite sparingly.

 

[Nick JD]

BIAB is like a chainsaw. Some people cut down trees and cut firewood with one; some people use it to create art.

Some people use it in conjunction with a hockey mask to sever the limbs of their victims.

It's just a tool. Up to the user how much or how little they want to experiment.

Anyone tells me how I should or should not use BIAB I'm likely to put on my hockey mask.

 

[yardy]

I don't do the mantra - most brew days consist of periods of boredom punctuated by furious activity, then back to boredom. Sparge, wort press etc gives me something to do while ramping up to boil.
Just my way of getting wort with increased efficiency (in this particular case).

90% of my brews are isothermal infusion mashes, no sparge anyway. BIAB can be as simple or as complex as you feel like doing for a particular recipe / style.

edit: if you were going to have a mantra it would be along the lines of "traditionally the wort is removed from the grain, with BIAB the grain is removed from the wort"

2V.. so it seems you've almost evolved then, 3V is close for you mate :icon_cheers:

btw, you can call off nick now, i got my bite



back on topic, although you are still hedging your bets and throwing in some mel, do you think you'll do a side by side without it ?

Yard

 

[Bribie G]

I've never used Mel as a "decoction substitute", and it would have to be one of the most discussed malts of all time (apart from maybe Maris bloody Otter - I'm sure if Maris Otter had actually been called "Southern Pale" or something, it would have lurked in obscurity)
So I'm keen to give it a go and see what the fuss is about, then do a side by side without it, for sure.

 

[yardy]

So I'm keen to give it a go and see what the fuss is about, then do a side by side without it, for sure.

will look forward to the results of that one :icon_cheers:

 

[going down a hill]

sorry i'm not having a crack but isn't the biab mantra 'simplicity' ?

Yard

I thought the BIAB mantra was to use a bag.

 

[Deebo]

Quick somewhat OT question; Why doesnt decoction extract tannins? Or does it?

 

[drsmurto]

Yes, mate. I'm well aware of this. I've probably done as many decoctions as you've assumed inadequate knowledge of other AHB members.

Still stand by one 6L decoction in a 23L batch doing very little to change the colour and flavour. Have a look at his grain bill - there's already two sources of melanoidins in there.

I've done single, double and triple decoctions (burnt one too with too dry a boil) in Pilsners and would not recommend a single decoction to anyone trying to significantly alter the flavour or colour of their beer if they already have a significant amount of Munich and Melanoidin in the grain bill.

But as Bribie said - he's doing it to showcase the technique.

You haven't been alive long enough Nick to cover the number of 'assumptions' - I'm still waiting to be proven wrong on any of them :icon_cheers:

If you can't get any detectable colour and flavour from one decoction either you are doing it wrong or your palate is broken.

Agree, i would never add melanoidin if doing a decoction but i still decoct when using vienna/munich (decoctions in a munich laden dunkel are sublime) malts and still can detect a difference but then i would wager my trained palate is more tuned than yours. It's part of what i get paid to do :icon_cheers:

 

[Bribie G]

Quick somewhat OT question; Why doesnt decoction extract tannins? Or does it?

It's a pH thing. Tannin extraction can particularly occur as a result of over-sparging when the pH has been allowed to rise too much. The Germans boiling their grains with impunity was something that always puzzled me as well.

 

[Nick JD]

... i would wager my trained palate is more tuned than yours. It's part of what i get paid to do :icon_cheers:

I get paid to recalibrate arrogance meters. Yours is due for a service, Dr. Peckerhead.

I'd love to see the recipe for your single decoction pils (including decoct volume and boil time). It'd be interesting if the decoction specs are the same as Bribie's.

Perhaps you could be so kind as to do some tutorial threads showering people with your knowledge that you seem to retain and only use for "correcting" in a patronising manner? That'd be good. Or are you only here to teach the experts?

Something to think about when you are taste testing those paddlepops.

 

[Nick JD]

It's a pH thing. Tannin extraction can particularly occur as a result of over-sparging when the pH has been allowed to rise too much. The Germans boiling their grains with impunity was something that always puzzled me as well.

Another potential issue with boiling a too thick mashout decoction is releasing trapped starches in the grain - there's no further activity to convert these. Something to consider when you are planning the consistency and vigour of the mashout decoction.

 

[drsmurto]

I get paid to recalibrate arrogance meters. Yours is due for a service, Dr. Peckerhead.

I'd love to see the recipe for your single decoction pils (including decoct volume and boil time). It'd be interesting if the decoction specs are the same as Bribie's.

Perhaps you could be so kind as to do some tutorial threads showering people with your knowledge that you seem to retain and only use for "correcting" in a patronising manner? That'd be good. Or are you only here to teach the experts?

Something to think about when you are taste testing those paddlepops.

It's not my job to spoon feed people, i learnt all i know by reading, researching and experimenting and i am continually learning. There are 100s of people on this forum with far more knowledge than me, I've never said i know it all. I ignore anecdotal evidence and heresay which covers 95% of this forum. You interpret that as me being arrogant. For the record i prefer Snapperhead to Peckerhead but whatever floats your boat.

My single decoction pils, pic below, is 100% wey pils. I mash in at 52C and hold it for 5 mins before pulling ~6L of thick mash (i use a wire strainer to remove as much liquid as possible - I'd say that i use ~70% of the total grains). Heat that to 65C and let it rest for 10-15 mins. Heat to boiling and then boil for 15-20 mins. The colour change is very evident by the end of the boil but there are also significant changes occurring as the mash is heated from 52 to 65. Add that back to the tun to hit 65C. Leave that for an hour and then do a thin decoction mashout - simply by bringing the 1st runnings to the boil and then adding back to the tun - no boiling/caramelising. Sparge as normal and boil for 90 mins.

The difference in colour and depth of flavour when compared to the same recipe using infusion steps to achieve the same is significant enough for me not to brew pilsners without a decoction. I only brew 1 or 2 a year so am happy to put the extra effort in, sometimes i add another decoction step (70C).

 

[Nick JD]

You've managed to get it darker than Urquell's triple decoction. Well done.

 

[drsmurto]

You've managed to get it darker than Urquell's triple decoction. Well done.

Crappy photo in a poorly lit shed, my photography skills are appalling. It's darker but not as much as the difference in those 2 pictures.

I thought i had a picture showing the colour of the boiling grain but I cant find it. Will try to remember next time i make a pils (soon) to take a pic showing the colour changes that occur.

 

[argon]

actually i had an Urquell last night and noted the colour to be reasonably golden vs straw. I reckon DrS' photo is closer in colour than the stock photo.

 

[drsmurto]

actually i had an Urquell last night and noted the colour to be reasonably golden vs straw. I reckon DrS' photo is closer in colour than the stock photo.

The last urquell i had (a month ago) was dripping with diacetyl. Couldn't drink it