Advanced Biab With Stepping And Decoction

[Bribie G]

There's a common misconception that BIAB is a somewhat inaccurate shotgun method of producing a beer, but not to worry she'll be right at the end of the brew and anyway BIAB is mainly suited to producing forgiving styles such as APAs, stouts etc. Right?

Furthermore, if you want to create a wort with the precise characteristics you are looking for with repeatability, and within strict temperature parameters then forget about BIAB.

Well, I often get surprised reactions when I say that step mashes in BIAB are almost trivial to perform and that decoction is carried out quite frequently by BIABers, even Maxi and Mini versions.

So tomorrow, TidalPete (mighty HERMS man) and myself are doing a Bock using BIAB with the following program, pretty much a standard Hochkurz mash with no protein rest but tickled up somewhat with a decoction to mashout:

Dough in for sach rest at 62 30 min
Ramp to 71 for dextrinisation rest and hold for 45 min
Meanwhile boil 6L of the decocted grain for x mins (I'll read up a bit more on that any hints appreciated) and return to the bag to bring to mashout
Hold at 78 mashout for around 10 mins

Hoist bag, drain,
Side sparge

90 min boil with one addition of bittering hops at 60 mins
Final length to be 23L into cube with 2L into Schott bottles for starter.
Aiming for around 7% abv.

Watch this space for final recipe and photos as we go.

 

[ShredMaster]

Well this looks interesting, I'm watching this closely! I'm starting to experiment with really-really-small BIAB batches (5L) while I scavenge and gather the materials to do full volume batches.

I'm looking forward to reading your results!

Good luck!

- Shred.

 

[vykuza]

Sounds great Bribie!


My biggest question with step mashing BIAB is the heat loss from the bag hanging. If you lift the bag then heat the wort to a new step temp, there's going to be heat loss when the large (and variable) amount of grain and wort is lowered back in to the urn. That's really the only reason I shy away from stepping with a heat source in BIAB.

If I mash at multiple temps with BIAB in my urn I use multiple infusions. I aim for the full volume at the end of the mash, as if doing a single infusion trad/full volume BIAB. It does need another pot to heat your infusion water in though, so it's not for everyone.

 

[loikar]

Meanwhile boil 6L of the decocted grain for x mins (I'll read up a bit more on that any hints appreciated) and return to the bag to bring to mashout

http://brewadelaide.com/forum/index.php?to...picseen#msg7335

Cheers,

BF

 

[stux]

I found it virtually impossible to heat with the bag raised slightly, and raised totally would cause too much heat loss when I added the bag back it would cool to where I was before I started raising the temp!

Solution was a 32cm round cake rack, and continuous agitation with a large potato masher while I raise the temp, instead of raising the bag

 

[Nick JD]

If you want a significant colour and flavour change for your mashout decoction you'll really want to pull it at the dex rest ramp up. And pull it with a flour sifter thingo - letting it drain reasonably well - going for a porridge consistency.

I've found that you can get away without stirring, if you simmer on a low heat. But I reckon this kinda defeats the purpose, as I've found a high heat with almost constant stirring is needed to actually make a significant change to the colour and flavour - especially with such a small percentage pulled from the main mash.

30 minutes of constant stirring is a right pain though.

EDIT: is this the Bock of the recipe posted in the other thread with 200g of Melanoidin and Munich? Dunno if I'd bother with the decoct...

 

[felten]

BIAB step mashes are cake, I'm using gas so I don't have to worry about hoisting the bag, but all you have to do is apply heat and stir. With a crappy 3 ring burner It takes me 10-15 minutes to go from protein to sach rest, depending on the ambient temp.

 

[Bribie G]

Yes it's the one with the Mello - might pull the Mello and just put in a bit of extra Pils otherwise the Mel is probably going to interfere with assessing whether the decoction has contributed anything.

For the stepping we'll be using one of these with constant stirring / pumping. Like above posters I found that hanging the bag then redunking it is pretty inaccurate, but direct heating is far more controllable, and of course no bag wrestling involved.




Go Pete

Yes I'll draw out the grain at the start of the dex rest - good idea - I'd been wondering about that, otherwise if I'm waiting for the grain to boil, it would be waiting around too long at 71 before mashout.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

I'll look forward to this in urn-est.

Goomba

 

[Nick JD]

Yes it's the one with the Mello - might pull the Mello and just put in a bit of extra Pils otherwise the Mel is probably going to interfere with assessing whether the decoction has contributed anything.

I've found with Melanoidin, 10% is as dark and flavoursome (ever so slightly different though) as a triple decoction. Actually slighly darker - I reckon 7%.

In a Boh Pils, depending on decoct thickness and boil intensity I reckon you'd be hard-pressed to taste the difference between a triple decoction and 5-10% Melanoidin.

Just the mash out decoct ... 3/5 of FA. But it does wonders for efficiency.

Dunno about a Bock.

 

[Fourstar]

Just the mash out decoct ... 3/5 of FA. But it does wonders for efficiency.

Why do you consider a mashout decoction to be different/less effective compared to a single decoction anywhere else in the process?

Is it due to it being post conversion and scorching sugars compared to starch?

Just a little confused where you are going with this. The reason i ask is the flavour from a decoction pulled for mashout has a significant flavour difference to the main mash post decoction cycle. i cant see how this is 3/5 FA?

I do agree with the melanoiden point, it is a good 'lazy mans' option for avoiding a decoction but just not quite the same.

 

[Nick JD]

The reason i ask is the flavour from a decoction pulled for mashout has a significant flavour difference to the main mash post decoction cycle. i cant see how this is 3/5 FA?

Pulling 6L, half or more of it grain means you've added a small amount of colour and flavour to about 2L of wort. A quarter of that is probably through evaporation and concentration contributing to change.

Actually 2/23rds of FA.

Pulling 3 lots of it at different stages of the mash ... significant difference.

 

[Bribie G]

Yup the idea of a "mini decoction" is just to add a touch of flavour and colour, not the full German deal of using it to step up the temperatures - I might just have two bob each way and put in some mel as well. I'm doing a decoction basically just to show that it can be done as part of a BIAB schedule without too much drama.

 

[Nick JD]

I'm doing a decoction basically just to show that it can be done as part of a BIAB schedule without too much drama.

:icon_cheers:

 

[J Grimmer]

I am very interested in how this turns out Bribie. AG is something I am contemplating moving to in the next 12-18 months as soon as my new house is built i am tossing up BIAB or a 3v System.

Jan

 

[drsmurto]

Pulling 6L, half or more of it grain means you've added a small amount of colour and flavour to about 2L of wort. A quarter of that is probably through evaporation and concentration contributing to change.

Actually 2/23rds of FA.

Pulling 3 lots of it at different stages of the mash ... significant difference.

Have a search for Maillard reactions Nick. Nothing to do with evaporation or conentration, it's a chemical reaction between an amino acid and a sugar.

I won't do a Bribie and re-post a photo of a bo pils i made using a single decoction and 100% pils malt. There was a significant colour change (and flavour change) from a single decoction.

Thick decoctions, when done properly, only contain enough liquid to prevent the grain from burning. Too much water will prevent the reaction from occurring so people who decoct sloppy mixtures wont get anywhere near the amount of melanoidin formation that occurs during a thick decoction.

You can visually see the colour change (and smell the changes) as you heat grain in a decoction pot.
I personally don't find the flavour produced from a decoction to be the same as what you get when using melanoidin. Similar but not the same.

I see no reason why people who use the BIAB method can't do decoctions. The bag is just an alternate version of a false bottom. Rather than removing the liquor from the grain by opening a tap you simply lift the bag and drain.

Cheers
DrSmurto

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Decoctions are a peice of piss with BIAB. I Spills and I did a couple of them 3 or 4 years ago for much the same reason you are doing it Bribie.

Tips:

When you are pulling the decoction fraction, what you do is kind of pull up one side of your bag, sort of gather it up pulling it up from under the surface, as the bottom of the bag raises, your grain will surface and you can just scoop the solid portion out with a spoon without worrying about scooping with a seive or getting much liquid at all - then you let the gathered up bits of the bag go and it all just plops back into place ready to ramp.

Given that the decoction portion is a much smaller proportion of the total volume in a Full volume BIAB mash than it is in a "normal" mash tun - your decoction wont come anywhere near raising the temp by the same amount that a similar decoction would in a regular mash - you will have to finish your step with your heat source.

if you're just looking for a flavour contribution - pull the decoction at the end of sacch and use it to raise to mashout, but pull a heap more out than you would for a mid mash decoction and make it wetter. You have no fears about denaturing enzymes because you are headed for MO anyway, so you can go for broke without hurting anything. The wetter fraction means that its a bit easier to stir and you dont have to stir as much, so its no more effort to pull a larger fraction out. Note however Dr S's comment that the melanoidins form better in a dryer decoction, so dont make it too sloppy. And if its bigger, it might just get you your step after all - I dunno, promash has a calculator, I used it and it worked passably well.

it'll be easy as pie, or as easy a a decoction brew can get anyway - have fun

TB

 

[Nick JD]

Have a search for Maillard reactions Nick. Nothing to do with evaporation or conentration, it's a chemical reaction between an amino acid and a sugar.

Yes, mate. I'm well aware of this. I've probably done as many decoctions as you've assumed inadequate knowledge of other AHB members.

Still stand by one 6L decoction in a 23L batch doing very little to change the colour and flavour. Have a look at his grain bill - there's already two sources of melanoidins in there.

I've done single, double and triple decoctions (burnt one too with too dry a boil) in Pilsners and would not recommend a single decoction to anyone trying to significantly alter the flavour or colour of their beer if they already have a significant amount of Munich and Melanoidin in the grain bill.

But as Bribie said - he's doing it to showcase the technique.

 

[yardy]

There's a common misconception that BIAB is a somewhat inaccurate "shotgun" method of producing a beer, but not to worry she'll be right at the end of the brew and anyway BIAB is mainly suited to producing "forgiving" styles such as APAs, stouts etc. Right?

Furthermore, if you want to create a wort with the precise characteristics you are looking for with repeatability, and within strict temperature parameters then forget about BIAB.

Well, I often get surprised reactions when I say that step mashes in BIAB are almost trivial to perform and that decoction is carried out quite frequently by BIABers, even Maxi and Mini versions.

So tomorrow, TidalPete (mighty HERMS man) and myself are doing a Bock using BIAB with the following program, pretty much a standard Hochkurz mash with no protein rest but tickled up somewhat with a decoction to mashout:

Dough in for sach rest at 62 30 min
Ramp to 71 for dextrinisation rest and hold for 45 min
Meanwhile boil 6L of the decocted grain for x mins (I'll read up a bit more on that any hints appreciated) and return to the bag to bring to mashout
Hold at 78 mashout for around 10 mins

Hoist bag, drain,
Side sparge

90 min boil with one addition of bittering hops at 60 mins
Final length to be 23L into cube with 2L into Schott bottles for starter.
Aiming for around 7% abv.

Watch this space for final recipe and photos as we go.

excuse my biab ignorance, what exactly is a side sparge ?

Yard

 

[Bribie G]

Sparge in a nappy bucket. My system is set up for a 60min boil which results in a cube plus a schott bottle or two to use in a starter or post cube hop boil. However, as this is going to be a 90 minute boil, not to mention a mofo headbanger job not unlike malt liquor, a dunk-sparge in a nappy bucket, plus my BribieExtractor wort press will give better efficiency with the added advantage that it will produce a bit more wort to put back into the kettle. So this will yield - after boiling - my "normal" volume that I would get with a 60 min boil.