Acid Rest?

[Bribie G]

TB so if i read your comments correctly, the acid rest that was done with Pilsners in the old days was a long low temperature rest that encouraged the growth of lactobacillus and hence the lowering of the pH.

So when using pre prepared acidulated malt (which is produced using Lacto fermentation - and boy does it taste acid - nibbled a few grains) then Weyermann have done it all for you and hence adding acidulated malt is more or less the equivalent of doing the rest in your own mash tun ?

 

[Hargie]

...if this hasn't been mentioned already...expect around a 0.1 ph drop per 1% acidulated malt...

 

[speedie]

tb i was under the assumption that the yeast which is used to produce a wizen style beer (wheat)
gave its esters towards the flavour components that you commented on
and an acid rest which is based around temps of 30-53 break down insoluble phytin to phytic acid


the use of a quality Ph meter is by far more accurate than paper strips

Wallace you sir are a flea!

 

[Ronin]

tb i was under the assumption that the yeast which is used to produce a wizen style beer (wheat)
gave its esters towards the flavour components that you commented on

The clove character is 4-vinyl guaiacol, which the yeast create from phenolic acids such as ferulic acid through a decarboxylation reaction. Therefore the more ferulic acid in the wort (by doing an acid rest), the more 4-vinyl guaiacol produced and the more clove character.

I don't believe 4-vinyl guaiacol is an ester. The esters are isoamyl acetate (banana), which are formed from glucose. Therefore the more glucose in wort, the more banana flavour (theoretically)

James

 

[Bribie G]

So would a Coopers Sparkling style with wheat and added sugar (that gets split into Fructose and Glucose) end up more estery than an all malt Coopers with no wheat?

 

[unrealeous]

and an acid rest which is based around temps of 30-53 break down insoluble phytin to phytic acid

From what I understand - The difference between a 'normal' acid rest and 'ferulic' acid is the temp. Normal are done around 35 degrees - the ferulic is done around 45 degrees.

 

[speedie]

ok dudes and dudettes
lets first of
all look at the flavour components that are being put up
if for instant you guns do a wizen batch you would be expecting the 4 vinall stuff using a wheistphan based yeast
now for a strange reaction do the same batch and use any! lager yeast with or without acid rest
and u will have 2 very different beers
now is this due to the yeast or an acid rest?
ps my spelling is always going to be phucked
i am a doer not a ******
wallace? B)

 

[blackbock]

the use of a quality Ph meter is by far more accurate than paper strips

However, not many homebrewers possess a 'quality' pH meter or would know the correct way to use one. Myself included. I'll stick to my strips thank you.

 

[felten]

now is this due to the yeast or an acid rest?

The yeast require the phenolic off flavour gene to create phenolics, wheat beer yeasts have this gene, lager yeasts don't.

 

[Hargie]

The yeast require the phenolic off flavour gene to create phenolics, wheat beer yeasts have this gene, lager yeasts don't.

...Bingo...!

 

[speedie]

so what i am expressing is the correct use of yeast creates that wizen style and an acid rest done in any other brew ale or lager using appropriate non wizen srtain wont produce your clove banna etc

 

[Bribie G]

gotitinonebro

 

[bconnery]

ok dudes and dudettes
lets first of
all look at the flavour components that are being put up
if for instant you guns do a wizen batch you would be expecting the 4 vinall stuff using a wheistphan based yeast
now for a strange reaction do the same batch and use any! lager yeast with or without acid rest
and u will have 2 very different beers
now is this due to the yeast or an acid rest?
ps my spelling is always going to be phucked
i am a doer not a ******
wallace? B)

[insert swear word here] you really do have an amazing ability to tell us something that we all know and is quite obvious anyway and make it sound like you are imparting some amazing fact from the great wealth of your brewing knowledge...
A beer done with a weizen yeast and a lager yeast will be different?
My god, this shakes the very foundations of brewing? Have you posted this anywhere else? The world needs to know!

 

[speedie]

the discssion was about acid rest
tb point out effects in wheat beer
is that too hard for you the fathom

 

[DUANNE]

i am a ******

could not have said it better myself

 

[felten]

I don't fathom, your posts are too ******* hard to decipher, what a waste of time!

 

[bconnery]

the discssion was about acid rest
tb point out effects in wheat beer
is that too hard for you the fathom

No, the discussion was about acid rest. tb pointed out that the acid rest referred to in wheat beers was used for different effects than the acid rest the original poster was seeking discussion for.

Regardless of this, the idea that a beer brewed with a wheat yeast and a lager yeast will be different is a. still bloody obvious and b. not actually related to acid rests, the effect thereof in wheat beers or mash ph.

I am not even a fathom, let alone the fathom.

Is that too hard for you to fathom?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I shall not bother responding to speedie - everyone else understands what i mean and "everyone but speedie" is a high enough hit rate for me.

Bribie - the common explanation for the drop in pH during an acid rest is through the action of phytase on phytin producing phytic acid (as speedie accurately pointed out) but - thats only really in quite specialized situations. Phytase is very heat liable and in anything but very very lightly kilned malts there is basically none left to do anything, and in anything but very very soft water with only a tiny buffering action, the phytic acid produced even with lightly kilned malt, just isn't enough to change the pH.

So - given that there are a decent amount of lactic bugs on your average pile of malt, and that a 35 rest is smack in the hot zone for growing them up, its my opinion that in anything other than beers made with super pale under modified malt in butter soft water... Any drop in pH you notice is probably due as much if not more to lactic acid from bugs growing, than it is to phytase activity.

Not that it makes much difference - if the pH drops, it drops. The only reason to care is if you are trying to drop the pH a long way with a long rest; and you maybe risk some funky lacto favours as well as just straight acid - and lets face it, if your pH needs dropping that far, and acid rest isn't the right solution anyway.

 

[gregs]

ok dudes and dudettes
lets first of
all look at the flavour components that are being put up
if for instant you guns do a wizen batch you would be expecting the 4 vinall stuff using a wheistphan based yeast
now for a strange reaction do the same batch and use any! lager yeast with or without acid rest
and u will have 2 very different beers
now is this due to the yeast or an acid rest?
ps my spelling is always going to be phucked
i am a doer not a ******
wallace? B)

Yeah, and what you do well is; ****. <_<