A little help please with wiring up a PID

[Zorco]

Only one more beer for pooch and

BAM!

 

[SBOB]

Some dogs just cant handle their drinks...

 

[manticle]

I am not qualified to help you with your wiring GC.
I am however qualified to suggest that in the case of electrical wiring, you should only attempt anything if you are 100% certain and correct.

 

[Camo6]

Or have a really switched on dog.

 

[manticle]

My cat's pretty smart.

 

[MastersBrewery]

And if that element is going in a pot made of conductive material(Stainless,aluminium ), just be sure that pot has a clean conection to earth. Just to be safe. Simple light circuit tester, from the earth pin at the plug to any and all metal, that is part of or in contact with the circuit.

 

[Camo6]

My cat's pretty smart.

Yeah but I bet it would rather watch you struggle.

 

[manticle]

He would eat my dead flesh.

 

[Bogan333]

New diagram with some help
The Element insulation switch is now between the PID and the SSR, with two editorial 16A inline fuse 1st main power coming in 2nd between SSR and element. He has add the Alarm Buzzer with switch. The diagram will be for the HLT and Mash tun. With the boiler he is going to get back to me in regards where to put the 4000W 220V AC SCR Voltage Regulator Dimmer Electric Motor Speed Controller for the element.

 

[SBOB]

New diagram with some help
The Element insulation switch is now between the PID and the SSR, with two editorial 16A inline fuse 1st main power coming in 2nd between SSR and element. He has add the Alarm Buzzer with switch. The diagram will be for the HLT and Mash tun. With the boiler he is going to get back to me in regards where to put the 4000W 220V AC SCR Voltage Regulator Dimmer Electric Motor Speed Controller for the element.

1)no idea why you are switching the 12v supply to the SSR instead of the 240v mains power..
- Hypothetically you're SSR fails and latches closed, that switch will do absolutely nothing as you still have 240v mains heading into the 'live' side
- If you are going to have two switches, make both of them kill power to the element/SSR/most likely bit which you will be near/touching
2) You also haven't indicated an earth to the SSR
3) You haven't indicated an earth to the SSR!

 

[SBOB]

With the boiler he is going to get back to me in regards where to put the 4000W 220V AC SCR Voltage Regulator Dimmer Electric Motor Speed Controller for the element.

Why are you adding this? Element larger than maximum current source?

 

[Bogan333]

Hello my name is Derrick

George's neighbour in our street YES I'm a qualified electronics technician.
George ask me for some technical support on his project.
I understand why he choose such a forum clearly there are advance home brewers who have build their own electric brewing system on here.
And you could say he was hopping to get the right direction by those people.
Yes George's knowledge of electronics is basics I can see that, at least he has the nous to seek information and ask questions

This morning when we were having chat I could see he was getting quiet frustrated.
I asked can I help
Clearly he is only half way through is build where is still waiting on parts from overseas


Than he showed me this forum and I read the topic from start to finish I could not believe the shit that has been given to George.
If you were to go back and take a look at the first schematic pic he put up also the video link from Ink Bird you can see it is wrong, That was his main question he was asking for. Which no one answered
Here some of the comments to George

1. 
   
   One person telling George earth the Solid state relay
   Give me your reason WHY ? I’ll tell you No one does in the electronics industry
   
   
   
   

1. 
   l'd be wary of using those rockers with a 10A load going through. Any slightly dodgy connection and those rockers will get hot. “
   That's a load of bull it's Toggle switches are ones you look out for.
   
   3)no idea why you are switching the 12v supply to the SSR instead of the 240v mains power.
   

• 
  Hypothetically you're SSR fails and latches closed, that switch will do absolutely nothing as you still have 240v mains heading into the 'live' side”
  
• 
  If you are going to have two switches, make both of them kill power to the element/SSR/most likely bit which you will be near/touching
  
  
  He is not using the switch as a kill switch he wants to be able to have the proportional–integral–derivative controller ON without the element been ON
  

I told George the best way to wire up proportional integral derivative controller

Also someone said why are you going to use a Voltage Regulator Dimmer
it's there to only allow up to 220v or lower also he wants to stop any boil overs
which I have check the best place for it is in front of solid state relay and behind the switch


The other people putting up stupid jokes and pictures
And electricity kills I think he knows that

Let me tell you good people it is not the watts or volts that kill it is the AMPS
As well in Western Australian check your power coming in I think you will be surprised to find we are getting over 255V
I have looked at all George's components and they all look quite sound

George was asking for your help not to be treated like a fool

I will be mentoring George on his project

I don't drink beer but I will be drinking George's mead and cider

 

[SBOB]

Wow.. dont know where to start with that rant...

"If you were to go back and take a look at the first schematic pic he put up also the video link from Ink Bird you can see it is wrong, That was his main question he was asking for. Which no one answered"

pretty sure my dog posted a pretty good answer to his post with an accurate schematic (smart dog), along with being told his diagram was incorrect...

One person telling George earth the Solid state relay
Give me your reason WHY ? I’ll tell you No one does in the electronics industry

because its good practice, provides a convenient ground location to the chassis and often has a great big hunk of a heatsink on the back made out of nicely conductive metal

1. 
   )no idea why you are switching the 12v supply to the SSR instead of the 240v mains power.
   

• 
  Hypothetically you're SSR fails and latches closed, that switch will do absolutely nothing as you still have 240v mains heading into the 'live' side”
  
• 
  If you are going to have two switches, make both of them kill power to the element/SSR/most likely bit which you will be near/touching
  
  
• 
  He is not using the switch as a kill switch he wants to be able to have the proportional–integral–derivative controller ON without the element been ON
  

• 
  
  

Which would still be achieved by switching the 240v load in to the SSR (as my dog drew), and provide actual electrical isolation to the SSR and element in the case someones trying to quickly kill power to the board/SSR/element.. When you have the choice between turning the element on by (a) switching the control signal to the SSR or (b)switch the actual mains voltage to the SSR, I dont knw why any 'electronics technician' would choose (a)

Also someone said why are you going to use a Voltage Regulator Dimmer
it's there to only allow up to 220v or lower also he wants to stop any boil overs
which I have check the best place for it is in front of solid state relay and behind the switch

No idea how this will stop a boil over and the PID controller is there to regulate the power going to the element via PWM control, to maintain whatever temperature is set (and also likely allows for a set power output % for fixed boiling duties), but if a volume control helps him then sure...
And I would be placing it AFTER a switch on the active line but before the SSR... or at least my dog would


I think George should be thankful for the assistance he got on here, as my dog is feeling pretty unappreciated (and hung over)


the fact you keep calling it a proportional-integral-derivative-controller makes me wonder if you deal with these often as I dont know anyone who doesnt just say PID

 

[manticle]

Hello my name is Derrick

George's neighbour in our street YES I'm a qualified electronics technician.
George ask me for some technical support on his project.
I understand why he choose such a forum clearly there are advance home brewers who have build their own electric brewing system on here.
And you could say he was hopping to get the right direction by those people.
Yes George's knowledge of electronics is basics I can see that, at least he has the nous to seek information and ask questions

This morning when we were having chat I could see he was getting quiet frustrated.
I asked can I help
Clearly he is only half way through is build where is still waiting on parts from overseas

Than he showed me this forum and I read the topic from start to finish I could not believe the shit that has been given to George.
If you were to go back and take a look at the first schematic pic he put up also the video link from Ink Bird you can see it is wrong, That was his main question he was asking for. Which no one answered
Here some of the comments to George

• 
  
• 
  One person telling George earth the Solid state relay
  Give me your reason WHY ? I’ll tell you No one does in the electronics industry
  

[/*]

• 
  l'd be wary of using those rockers with a 10A load going through. Any slightly dodgy connection and those rockers will get hot. “
  That's a load of bull it's Toggle switches are ones you look out for.
  3)no idea why you are switching the 12v supply to the SSR instead of the 240v mains power.

• 
  Hypothetically you're SSR fails and latches closed, that switch will do absolutely nothing as you still have 240v mains heading into the 'live' side”
  
• 
  If you are going to have two switches, make both of them kill power to the element/SSR/most likely bit which you will be near/touchingHe is not using the switch as a kill switch he wants to be able to have the proportional–integral–derivative controller ON without the element been ON

I told George the best way to wire up proportional integral derivative controller
Also someone said why are you going to use a Voltage Regulator Dimmer
it's there to only allow up to 220v or lower also he wants to stop any boil overs
which I have check the best place for it is in front of solid state relay and behind the switch


The other people putting up stupid jokes and pictures
And electricity kills I think he knows that
Let me tell you good people it is not the watts or volts that kill it is the AMPS
As well in Western Australian check your power coming in I think you will be surprised to find we are getting over 255V
I have looked at all George's components and they all look quite soundGeorge was asking for your help not to be treated like a fool
I will be mentoring George on his project
I don't drink beer but I will be drinking George's mead and cider

Most of the posts have either tried to be informative or at worst, consider the welfare of not just George but anyone else (in the world) who may read and follow the advice on here.

Great that you're around to help George. Most replies here also have his best interests at heart.
A stupid picture won't kill you.
Incorrectly homewired stuff might.

Spend your energy helping your neighbour rather than being antagonistic.

 

[Camo6]

Hello my name is Derrick

George's neighbour in our street YES I'm a qualified electronics technician.
George ask me for some technical support on his project.
I understand why he choose such a forum clearly there are advance home brewers who have build their own electric brewing system on here.
And you could say he was hopping to get the right direction by those people.
Yes George's knowledge of electronics is basics I can see that, at least he has the nous to seek information and ask questions

This morning when we were having chat I could see he was getting quiet frustrated.
I asked can I help
Clearly he is only half way through is build where is still waiting on parts from overseas


Than he showed me this forum and I read the topic from start to finish I could not believe the shit that has been given to George.
If you were to go back and take a look at the first schematic pic he put up also the video link from Ink Bird you can see it is wrong, That was his main question he was asking for. Which no one answered
Here some the comments to George

1. 
   
   One person telling George earth the Solid state relay
   Give me your reason WHY ? I’ll tell you No one does in the electronics industry
   
   
   
   

1. 
   l'd be wary of using those rockers with a 10A load going through. Any slightly dodgy connection and those rockers will get hot. “
   That's a load of bull it's Toggle switches are ones you look out for.
   
   3)no idea why you are switching the 12v supply to the SSR instead of the 240v mains power.
   

• 
  Hypothetically you're SSR fails and latches closed, that switch will do absolutely nothing as you still have 240v mains heading into the 'live' side”
  
• 
  If you are going to have two switches, make both of them kill power to the element/SSR/most likely bit which you will be near/touching
  
  
  He is not using the switch as a kill switch he wants to be able to have the proportional–integral–derivative controller ON without the element been ON
  

I told George the best way to wire up proportional integral derivative controller

Also someone said why are you going to use a Voltage Regulator Dimmer
it's there to only allow up to 220v or lower also he wants to stop any boil overs
which I have check the best place for it is in front of solid state relay and behind the switch


The other people putting up stupid jokes and pictures
And electricity kills I think he knows that

Let me tell you good people it is not the watts or volts that kill it is the AMPS
As well in Western Australian check your power coming in I think you will be surprised to find we are getting over 255V
I have looked at all George's components and they all look quite sound

George was asking for your help not to be treated like a fool

I will be mentoring George on his project

I don't drink beer but I will be drinking George's mead and cider

Thanks for your input Derrick.

Forgive my ignorance but is a qualified electronics technician licensed to wire 230V AC? We're not really talking electronics here are we? That bit gets taken care of by the PID and SSR. The bit George wants to handle is an electrical circuit. Having an understanding of how it works is great but if it doesn't comply with laws and rules implemented to protect human life, you're just asking for trouble.

George hasn't been attacked. It has strongly been recommended from the start of the thread that he seeks licensed advice. This isn't ELV DC. If he gets this wrong he can't pop his head over the fence and tell you he burnt his fingers. If he is unhappy of the electrical advice he has sought on a beer brewing forum he should ask the same on an electrical one. Then you'll see people attack him.

1. Why wouldn't you earth an SSR? In most builds on here the SSR gets mounted to an external aluminium heat sink. If your enclosure is plastic and the SSR shorts to the casing have a guess what else is gonna liven up?

2. Why wouldn't you include an isolation switch to control the load of the element? A SSR doesn't offer true isolation. Why switch off the element without isolating it? That's asking for trouble.

3. Why use a voltage regulator to control the boil when the PID has a manual mode to PWM the output?

I love how everyone always tries to pull the old "It's not the volts that kill, it's the amps" card. Bullshit. It's a combination of the two.


Edit: Too slow, SBOB covered most of my points already!

 

[barls]

this has run for a bit linger than the normal how do i wire this up, and will continue to do so as long as everyone plays nice so I'm going to point out that its against the rules to ask for what he is asking.

4. Posts recommending potentially dangerous actions (such as unprotected, incorrect or dangerous 240v wiring) is not recommended, and may be removed at the discretion of the site administrators.

there have been numerous helpful posts as manticle has pointed out. also under litigation laws most won't put their hand up and say outright this is the way to do it as someone will misinterpret it and then get hurt.
also as a fellow electronics tech please make sure of what your saying is correct before blasting members on here as it will only result in George getting a time out or possibly banned.

 

[Bogan333]

Derrick here

Great I have been sitting waiting for comments while sipping on George's mead very nice indeed.

First bloke off the rank SBOB is it.
I have installed one or two "PID" in my 30 years of electronics from automotive shops and hobby craft kiln's

Not his diagram the first diagram from Ink bird is wrong I can see what he was saying you can't

You did not say in the older posts to the heatsink at all. in-saying that it is up to you if you wish to do that, In my industry there's no need.

"PID overshoot and what he told me that to keep it a nice rolling boil

You have your back to front ass about or did your dog tell you that

MainSwitch- PID- isolationSwitch- Behind Voltage Regulator Dimmer Front- SSR

That's it for now going to have couple drinks with George

 

[Camo6]

That's it for now going to have couple more drinks with George

Fixed this for you Derrick.

 

[TheWiggman]

This has become quite surreal. George there are numerous people here who have wired up controllers - safely - but the way you are asking questions raises a few red flags (use of letters on diagrams for one). Based on your diagrams and language your level of competence is a bit below the 'advice' level. Kind of like asking how to race a car but not knowing which foot the clutch is on. This isn't a stab, but we all start somewhere so train yourself up a bit before taking the plunge. I suggest then run it by Derrick, THEN by an electrician. There is a reason they have a licence to do their job, there are things they know that save lives that the rest of us didn't spend 4 years training to learn. Doesn't mean you can't do parts of their job (most of us can turn a screwdriver), it means you don't know necessarily know the right thing to do.
Edit: why not let Derrick work out the diagram for you? He sounds keen to help out. Seriously.

 

[Benn]

...I take back all the mean things I've said to my Spiral Burner,