5.2 Ph Stabilizer In Mash

[felten]

There's a post on whats in 5.2 here from ajdelange http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-w...tml#post2378477

lots of sodium in that stuff. There seems to be a lot of debate on other forums as to whether it actually works.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I've done a few experiments - they lead me to believe that 5.2 stabiliser has an insignificant impact on mash pH at anything even vaguely approaching the recommended dose.

I used to assume that the manufacturers claims couldn't simply be untrue and I thought that it worked - read AJ's post, started to doubt, did some tests - and now I think it doesn't work at all. And I reckon I can just taste it in my beer at the recommended dose... I can certainly taste it at any dose where it even comes close to doing what it says it does.

In Melbourne water at any rate - what it does or doesn't do in the mineral ridden hell juice you happen to brew with I have no damn idea... But I do suggest you actually do some controlled experiments before you necessarily swallow what's written on the label.

I wanted this product to work - I used to think it did work - I don't anymore.

 

[alkos]

Can you tell us, how did your experiments look like?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

A 25g sample of grain (pale lager malt) mashed in to 65C (IIRC) at an L:G ratio of 3:1, which is what I use. Added to the mash water - various %s of the recommended dose of 5.2. I think I went 0, 50, 100, 200, 300, 500%

Mash for 5mins or so, then filter and measure pH of wort. Repeat a few times to make sure its not just a fluke. Try again with a different base malt.

Using either my handheld pH meter or the desktop one at work, weights measured with my 0.1g resolution scales, volumes in a 100ml and a 1L measuring cylinder.

i dont have my raw data - all on my PC, all gone in a headcrash. But its a very easy experiment to repeat for yourself.

I backed it up with a couple of less controlled experiments in my actual brewery ... mashed with no 5.2 measure pH - add 5.2 measure pH again. Observe change in pH - or in my case, primarily the lack thereof.

 

[beers]

I've done a few experiments - they lead me to believe that 5.2 stabiliser has an insignificant impact on mash pH at anything even vaguely approaching the recommended dose.

I used to assume that the manufacturers claims couldn't simply be untrue and I thought that it worked - read AJ's post, started to doubt, did some tests - and now I think it doesn't work at all. And I reckon I can just taste it in my beer at the recommended dose... I can certainly taste it at any dose where it even comes close to doing what it says it does.

In Melbourne water at any rate - what it does or doesn't do in the mineral ridden hell juice you happen to brew with I have no damn idea... But I do suggest you actually do some controlled experiments before you necessarily swallow what's written on the label.

I wanted this product to work - I used to think it did work - I don't anymore.

Could be due to the fact that it was originally designed for use in areas with hard water problems, not soft water areas.

I bought a tub of it a few years back, used it a handfull of times, & found CaCl & Gypsum to work better for me.

Edit: Sounds like you're not the only one to come to this conclusion Thirsty Boy. Some interesting posts by A J DeLange & Kai Troester -
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/vie...317&start=9
http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/foru...hp?topic=1125.0

 

[bum]

I've done a few experiments - they lead me to believe that 5.2 stabiliser has an insignificant impact on mash pH at anything even vaguely approaching the recommended dose.
[snip]
In Melbourne water at any rate

Gah! I bought it because I read a brewer say it will be good specifically for Melbourne water. Oh well. I own it now, I'll give it a run anyway and see if my mileage varies (and since my efficiencies are much lower than what I assume yours might be perhaps I'll see an improvement where you didn't?). Thanks for posting your findings though.

 

[MeLoveBeer]

...certainly backs up my own thoughts on ph 5.2. I brought a small container of it about 3 month ago and have used it in 2 brews at the recommended dosage with no noticeable effect. Am now moving to CaCl, Gypsum, Citric acid and a handheld ph meter (any recommendations as to which one to get?).

 

[unrealeous]

I don't use the stuff - I flatly refuse to use any product that doesn't state the ingredients. Food grade phosphate buffers is not an ingredient list.

If you know your water profile - you can control your ph through salt additions. A ph meter doesn't go astray. Just another part of the brewing process.

 

[Ross]

Certainly works on Brisbane water & only approx 1 teaspoon needed
As I said, buy some ph strips & do your own testing to see the quantity required.

Not sure what's going on with Melbourne water, but if someone wants to send me an analysis i'll forward to 5 Star for their advice.


cheers Ross

 

[Lecterfan]

+1 to Argon, I've used it for the last 3 mashes (plus a protein rest) and have gone from hovering around %68 efficiency to %76ish efficency (based on what beersmith tells me anyway).

Cheers all.

edit: although I will concede that I look like a dickhead stating that after the last run of comments from far more experienced brewers than me. Maybe it is the combination of protein rest and getting to know my set up more intimately that has increeased my efficiency? Anyway...

 

[bignath]

My small testing makes me think it works for me.

In my region, (south east corner of SA), we get our town water from a water filled volcano (known as the blue lake if you've passed through mt gambier). The water is quite high pH (8.4 or a tad higher) and it's very hard. EVERY house in town has to have a water softener.

When i started mashing beers, my pH in the mash was around 7ish as it was naturally lowered from the grains, so i used the correct dosage and measured my pH to be 5.2/5.4

So it works for me, but as others (more experienced) have stated, they have had mixed results...

I will assume i've had a jump in efficiency because of this, but when i started i never bothered to crunch the numbers as i was trying to get processes down first. I usually get medium to high 70%'s...

 

[argon]

Certainly works on Brisbane water & only approx 1 teaspoon needed
As I said, buy some ph strips & do your own testing to see the quantity required.

This is my experience anyway... perhaps it is the Brisbane water and for that soft Melbourne water it's rendered useless. I know there's a lot of talk on the brewing network about this stuff not working... i've been flamed for saying it does for me. All i can conclude it's individual to my situation and water profile.

Next batch i'll do without and see how it goes... but definitely a marked improvement in my process when adding it to my strike water. The brew last weekend, i added it straight to the mash 5 mins after i doughed in, cause i forgot... got my usual 75% efficiency. Go figure

I think i'll get some ph strips soon to test and report results.

 

[speedie]

Big nath

Thanks for your comments on your tests with hard water

Now get some very soft water and redo them and post your results

With the use of a well calibrated temperature adjusting Ph meter

speedie

 

[bignath]

Big nath

Thanks for your comments on your tests with hard water

Now get some very soft water and redo them and post your results

With the use of a well calibrated temperature adjusting Ph meter

speedie

calibrated temperature adjusting pH meter - tick. (note pH, not Ph) it's not a phone number...

I live 500k's from the nearest source of anything remotely resembling soft water.

You can go get some soft water and post your own results, and take your smart arse attitude somewhere else.

 

[argon]

You can go get some soft water and post your own results, and take your smart arse attitude somewhere else.

I concur

 

[bum]

He's already been told that and he brought it here. h34r:

 

[Nevalicious]

calibrated temperature adjusting pH meter - tick. (note pH, not Ph) it's not a phone number...

I live 500k's from the nearest source of anything remotely resembling soft water.

You can go get some soft water and post your own results, and take your smart arse attitude somewhere else.

:lol:

You tell em Nath!!

 

[brettprevans]

Certainly works on Brisbane water & only approx 1 teaspoon needed
As I said, buy some ph strips & do your own testing to see the quantity required.

Not sure what's going on with Melbourne water, but if someone wants to send me an analysis i'll forward to 5 Star for their advice.


cheers Ross

melb water analysis thread
love to know what they say as I bought some buffer a few months ago.

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

I've used the product for several years and am on my second tub of it. I started using it when brewing in Collingwood and just continued using it when I moved to where I am *right this very instant*. After hearing Thirsty Boy's arguments and seeing his results, I thought I would run a few brews through my system without it.

I brew with rainwater collected on a ColourBond roof into a galvanised iron tank, pumped up a hill through black poly pipe into a concrete storage tank, which then falls back down another piece of black poly pipe into my brewery. There's a good mix of eucalypt, dust and birdshit in there which either gets dissolved or falls to the bottom of one of the tanks. I don't currently filter at all and, if memory serves, brew in an aluminum pot.

I've never measured the pH of any water I use - I used to tell myself that buying this product would fix any problems so I don't have to measure the solution before/during/after. I remain happily ignorant of what is actually going on. I use it at a rate of about 3grams per 24litre finished wort; perhaps a little more for big or particularly dark bears... I say this because I measure the water into the mash tun in centimetres and not litres.

What I can say is that for the half-dozen brews where I did not use the product, I found I had (only) slightly lower extraction efficiency, but I was quite unhappy with the general outcome of my beers. I thought they tasted different - perhaps slightly astringent, certainly the flavours I was chasing were less well-defined - and they appeared cloudier than I recalled previous brews.

Since returning to using it, I believe those issues have gone away. I have also made other improvements in my process, but there was enough for the pattern-matching part of my brain to register a correlation.

Note that my description and explanation are completely unscientific. There may be a confusion of cause and effect. But, it's all good enough for me. If it turns out that the good work done by knowledgeable and respected people differs from mine, then it won't be the first time. </Normal_Waffly_Disclaimer>

 

[speedie]

The post was about how this marvelous product can raise and or lower pH pre mashin post mashin

My response was one of skepticism

I asked if Ross had done any side by side tests TB comes back and confirms what I was thinking

The ability to offset pH either side of the mark would be miniscule

Please dont assume that I havent brewed before

speedie