20l Stovetop All Grain Aussie Lager

[Nick JD]

Line the colander with swiss voile that's been either boiled for a minute or two, or been soaked in starsan.

Pour into the fermenter until you start to see break material, then pour through the colander. Don't wait too long for it to drain - 5 minutes max.

The yoghurty stuff that first wants to tip into the fermenter is cold break - getting some of this in your brew doesn't affect the taste, and some would argue it should be in there. I've left it out and left it in and don't notice the difference.

The cottage cheesey stuff at the very bottom of the pot is hot break. This is essentially Barley Tofu. I've also left it in and left it out and I'm really not sure If I could tell the difference, but most would say to leave it out. The difference between cold and hot break is mostly fat, and you don't want fat in a beer, mainly because it might affect head retention and mouth feel.

Much of the "rules" about break material have been written by traditional brewing methods. Because cold break always ends up in the fermenter with people who rapidly cool wort, then it's "okay" because they have to live with it. Because traditional brewing methods can avoid hot break - they say "it's evil stuff!"

With this method you can avoid both, but I'm the last one to say you should. Your beer will be fine.

EDIT: you put hops in it, right?

 

[kierent]

I've done this method 3 times now and the first time I totally forgot to leave out the break material. I was worried later when i remembered but the beer turned out great. The second time I did the same recipe and left out the break material but this also meant leaving some sugaz out (I didn't realise the difference between cold and hot break so left it all out) and ended up with a 3.8% pilsner. It tastes great, but a bit weak. 3rd brew was an ale and is still fermenting but so far looks good- 1.045 OG which I was happy with.

Bottom line, I think I can live with a bit of break material if it doesn't make bad beer and increases efficiency figures. I'll try the collander method above though, thanks Nick!

 

[Nick JD]

I'll try the collander method above though, thanks Nick!

Remember to make sure everything is super clean and sanitised though.

 

[sgw86]

Line the colander with swiss voile that's been either boiled for a minute or two, or been soaked in starsan.

Pour into the fermenter until you start to see break material, then pour through the colander. Don't wait too long for it to drain - 5 minutes max.

The yoghurty stuff that first wants to tip into the fermenter is cold break - getting some of this in your brew doesn't affect the taste, and some would argue it should be in there. I've left it out and left it in and don't notice the difference.

The cottage cheesey stuff at the very bottom of the pot is hot break. This is essentially Barley Tofu. I've also left it in and left it out and I'm really not sure If I could tell the difference, but most would say to leave it out. The difference between cold and hot break is mostly fat, and you don't want fat in a beer, mainly because it might affect head retention and mouth feel.

Much of the "rules" about break material have been written by traditional brewing methods. Because cold break always ends up in the fermenter with people who rapidly cool wort, then it's "okay" because they have to live with it. Because traditional brewing methods can avoid hot break - they say "it's evil stuff!"

With this method you can avoid both, but I'm the last one to say you should. Your beer will be fine.

EDIT: you put hops in it, right?

Thanks Nick! Glad that I havn't potentially ruined this batch by adding the hot break. From what I understand of your comment above the hot break whether added to the Fermenter or not really doesn't make much difference?

Sorry forgot to add the Hops I used.

22g Pride of Ringwood @ 60mins.

 

[Nick JD]

From what I understand of your comment above the hot break whether added to the Fermenter or not really doesn't make much difference?

Try it with, and without - and make your choice. Making beer is like making anything; some people obsess over the details, others eliminate the intricacies.

 

[sgw86]

Thanks Nick! Will try your swiss voile straining method for removing hot break.

I know you posted some Lager recipes in an earlier post however I am in the process of brewing my Extract brews in AG. I use to do a Czech Pilsner (from a post on this forum) when I brewed Extract and the recipe was

2KG Pilsen Dry Malt
400g Dextrose
120g CaraPils Malt

60G Saaz @ 60
20G Saaz @ 15

Does anybody have any suggestions for an AG version?

I was thinking perhaps the following recipe (feedback appreciated)

3.2KG Weyermann Pilsner Malt
500G Weyermann Munich Light Malt (Type 1)
200G Weyermann CaraPils Malt

Mashed @ 64 for 90mins

60G Saaz (3.7%) @ 60mins
20G Saaz (3.7%) @ 15mins

Boiled for 60mins

 

[kierent]

I use this for a 20L stovetop bohemian pilsner and it's great:
4kg Weyermann Floor malted pilsner
200g Carahell
200g Carapils
Saaz to about 36 IBU in brewmate
Wyeast 2287 Czech Pils yeast fermented at 12C for a few weeks.

First time I mashed at 66C for about 90min and it finished about 1.012 and tasted probably a bit too sweet.
2nd time I did it I started at 62C for 45min then slowly (over about 15min) raised it to 68C and left for another 15min. This one was much drier, kinda like a hahn superdry feel to it (but better flavour).

 

[sgw86]

I use this for a 20L stovetop bohemian pilsner and it's great:
4kg Weyermann Floor malted pilsner
200g Carahell
200g Carapils
Saaz to about 36 IBU in brewmate
Wyeast 2287 Czech Pils yeast fermented at 12C for a few weeks.

First time I mashed at 66C for about 90min and it finished about 1.012 and tasted probably a bit too sweet.
2nd time I did it I started at 62C for 45min then slowly (over about 15min) raised it to 68C and left for another 15min. This one was much drier, kinda like a hahn superdry feel to it (but better flavour).

Great! Thanks Kierent!

When raising the temp from 62 to 68 did you just apply heat and stir (so not to burn the bag and grain)?

 

[Nick JD]

Use Boh Pils grain, and 5+% Melanoidin. Alternatively, look into decoction mashing - it's easy on the stovetop because you have another element right next to you.

 

[sgw86]

Use Boh Pils grain, and 5+% Melanoidin. Alternatively, look into decoction mashing - it's easy on the stovetop because you have another element right next to you.

Thanks Nick! Put the recipe through BrewMate. How does that look for a final one? Is the Mash temp/length fine? (strike temp of 70c).

I will also be using Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner Malt and Weyermann Melanoidin. I have added the CaraPils malt for a bit of body but not really not sure if this should be kept?


Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 20.0
Total Grain (kg): 4.087
Total Hops (g): 80.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.044 (P): 11.0
Final Gravity (FG): 1.011 (P): 2.8
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 4.32 %
Colour (SRM): 4.7 (EBC): 9.2
Bitterness (IBU): 35.4 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
----------------
3.734 kg Pilsner (91.36%)
0.202 kg Melanoidin (4.94%)
0.151 kg Carapils (Dextrine) (3.7%)

Hop Bill
----------------
60.0 g Saaz Pellet (3.6% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (3 g/L)
20.0 g Saaz Pellet (3.6% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil) (1 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------

Single step Infusion at 62C for 90 Minutes.
Fermented at 10C with Saflager W-34/70

 

[Nick JD]

I'd ditch the carapils - never saw the point in that stuff, but that's just me. If you are having issues with head retention or body it's a bit of a band aid.

62C is a bit too low. I'd go with 65C without the carapils. And upping the melanoidin to 300g wouldn't hurt - PU and Budvar are pretty dark. I even chuck in a bit of carabohemian too.

 

[sgw86]

I'd ditch the carapils - never saw the point in that stuff, but that's just me. If you are having issues with head retention or body it's a bit of a band aid.

62C is a bit too low. I'd go with 65C without the carapils. And upping the melanoidin to 300g wouldn't hurt - PU and Budvar are pretty dark. I even chuck in a bit of carabohemian too.

Excellent. Thanks Nick!

Have adjusted the recipe now and will attempt once my current batch finishes up. Without asking too many questions. My last question is the addition of Dextrose. If I wanted to increase the alcohol without sacrificing volume in the fermenter is the additon of Dex a good idea? Say max of 200g for this recipe?

Czech Pilsner


Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 20.0
Total Grain (kg): 4.000
Total Hops (g): 80.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.043 (P): 10.7
Final Gravity (FG): 1.011 (P): 2.8
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 4.22 %
Colour (SRM): 5.3 (EBC): 10.5
Bitterness (IBU): 35.5 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
----------------
3.700 kg Pilsner (92.5%)
0.300 kg Melanoidin (7.5%)

Hop Bill
----------------
60.0 g Saaz Pellet (3.6% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (3 g/L)
20.0 g Saaz Pellet (3.6% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil) (1 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------

Single step Infusion at 65C for 90 Minutes.
Fermented at 10C with Saflager W-34/70


Recipe Generated with BrewMate

 

[Nick JD]

I've found that with this brewing method it's quite possible to buffer it out with sugaz additions, but you can't get too carried away (unless the recipe calls for sugaz, then ya can - one of the reasons why this type of brewing suits Belgians so well).

The trick is, if you're adding sugaz, to not be too far below 65C with your mash temp. Below 65, the enzyme that favours a thin beer (low FG) is encouraged ... so if you start bunging in da sugaz you can really wash the beer out. You're making Euro beer here not Australian!

Mashing always produces glucose and sucrose in small amounts - so all AG beer has a fair portion of white powdery sugaz in it, but if you mash at 70C and add a fair whack, the beer will end up not being all that different than one mashed at 63C.

Sure, it's a little more complicated than this in reality, but when you're just starting out it's all far superior to K&K unless you want to add 1kg of sucrose, then you've officially overdone it.

Personally, in styles that don't really have sugar in them I find it's better to just lose a liter or two off the batch size and concentrate on the flavour - especially something as bittersweet as a Boh Pils. It should have balls.

 

[kierent]

Use Boh Pils grain, and 5+% Melanoidin. Alternatively, look into decoction mashing - it's easy on the stovetop because you have another element right next to you.

Might have to look into docoction mashing for future brews. But to raise the temp all I did was take off the lid, turn on the gas burner to about medium and stir vigorously until the temp reached what I wanted. The stirring was both to avoid burning and to make sure my thermometer was measuring accurately. Also, I haven't even heard of malanoidin, this just replaces the other malts? I'll do some googling. Always keen to learn more

 

[sgw86]

Keirent,

Found this description on Brew Dudes....

Melanoidin Malt is a type of malt produced by the Weyermann Malting Company. Melanoidins are desirable flavor compounds that are present in malts (especially German malts like Munich and Vienna). This specialty variety has been described as turbo Munich.

From what I have read, I formed this theory: Melanoidin Malt was developed to give homebrewers a way to get these big malty flavor compounds into beer without having to mash German malts. Historically to get melanoidins extracted into your wort, brewers would need to follow a decoction mash schedulewhich is time consuming. I think this malt is kilned in a special way to give homebrewers the ability to get the flavors without the hassle.

 

[Nick JD]

Keirent,

Found this description on Brew Dudes....

Melanoidin Malt is a type of malt produced by the Weyermann Malting Company. Melanoidins are desirable flavor compounds that are present in malts (especially German malts like Munich and Vienna). This specialty variety has been described as turbo Munich.

From what I have read, I formed this theory: Melanoidin Malt was developed to give homebrewers a way to get these big malty flavor compounds into beer without having to mash German malts. Historically to get melanoidins extracted into your wort, brewers would need to follow a decoction mash schedulewhich is time consuming. I think this malt is kilned in a special way to give homebrewers the ability to get the flavors without the hassle.

Yeah - melanoidin is basically decocted grain with its husks on. Melanoidins are the flavour compounds present in all beer, but much more present in decocted beers. A real decoction tastes different to using say 7% melanoidin, but it's a crap load easier than having to do three boils instead of doughing in and walking away.

Decoctions are fun, but not something you find yourself doing every weekend. If they made such a huge difference we'd do them every time. They make your Boh Pils darker and sweeter and more caramel and are a pain in the arse.

 

[kierent]

My reason for starting at 62 and then moving up towards 68 was just to get a drier finish to the beer by producing different types of sugaz. The first time I did this recipe it turned out quite sweet after a 90min @ 66C mash. I did a bit of reading and thought I'd try a different mash schedule and it worked well- the second attempt was drier. I did find it had less hop flavour than the first batch though, would this be to do with a different kind of sugaz in the boil? I can always dry hop in the keg for some more aroma though.

 

[Nick JD]

My reason for starting at 62 and then moving up towards 68 was just to get a drier finish to the beer by producing different types of sugaz. The first time I did this recipe it turned out quite sweet after a 90min @ 66C mash. I did a bit of reading and thought I'd try a different mash schedule and it worked well- the second attempt was drier. I did find it had less hop flavour than the first batch though, would this be to do with a different kind of sugaz in the boil? I can always dry hop in the keg for some more aroma though.

It's difficult to dry hop with noble hops successfully, and I'm not sure if any commercial lagers are dry hopped. Watch you don't wreck a beer trying! Not many have been able to get flavour in their beer without other bad flavours - if there's a secret to noble dry hopping I'd love to hear it.

Stepping mashes up is always a good idea.

To me, Boh Pils are very sweet beers. If they weren't hopped to 40 IBUs they'd be sickly sweet.

 

[paulmclaren11]

Here's a way to sort out an extremely fine mash and dough balls.

Fill up only to about 8~9L with just hot tap water, put in your bag and then dump in your grain. You should end up (of course this depends on your hot tap water temp) with about 45-50C mash.

This is below the temperature that the starch will dough-up, so you just get a nice thick, slippery porridge.

Put 2L of water in the coffee kettle and boil it. This will give you about 52-55C when you add it (while stiriring). By the time the kettle has boiled again, you've done a few minute protein rest.

Add the next 2L and you'll get up to ~62C. You can leave it here if you want a dry beer, or you can add another 2L and get up to ~66C. You've probably hit the rim of the 19L pot about there.

This will both eliminate doughballs, give you a wicked efficiency and give you most of the benefits of an stepped infusion mash ... just gotta boil the kettle 3 or 4 times.

Alternatively, get your HBS to mill your grain or cough up a few hundred for a mill setup.

I infuse often (usually 45C, 52C, 60C, 64C) because it makes a better beer. Dry with head-retention.

Once you work out your gear you can put the lid on in these periods between adding the next kettle and do a full on stepped mash. Takes notes and refine. Google "Hochkurz mash".

Another question about this 'stepped' method of mashing... I did this method and it certainly did reduce the amount of dough balls. However I found that I lost a heap of temp at the end of the mash when compared to warming to strike temp and then adding the grains.

Is there a safe way to add the grains at below dough ball temps and then rise the temp by turning on the gas burner to heat the pot? I am scared of burning the grains and grain bag!

I could use a cooling rack on the bottom of the pot?


Cheers.

 

[Nick JD]

I found that I lost a heap of temp at the end of the mash when compared to warming to strike temp and then adding the grains.

Make sure you stir the crap out of it. There's no difference between 65C infused and 65C striked. Unless you have a heavy hotplate that's bumping your temps after turning it off.

Ramping up for stepping from below barlez gelatinisation temps (where it's a cloudy porridge, rather than a clear barley soup) has consequences for the impatient. Before it's a clear mash (sacc temps) there are things that just love to burn and scorch your pot. Ramping from ~58 to 78C, no worries ... ramping from 43-58 can be problematic.

I've burnt the wort under the cakerack even when stirring the buggery out of it. If you are going to ramp below 58C, do it on a very low heat while stirring - never more than half on the element.

A burnt mash is a binned mash.