Intermediate Stovetop Techniques

[Maheel]

Nick JD for PM

as long as he says NO to the carbon tax..... even the price of Malt is going to increase heaps .....

 

[Goofinder]

I would call that a decoction mash out, not a decoction mash. For a decoction you usually take a thick portion of the mash with only a little water. I think you'll find that by boiling with so much liquid you will denature the enzymes.

Not really a problem with a mash out as that's the point of a mash out. If you took such a thin decoction for an earlier step I think your efficiency might suffer and not end up with quite the result you were after.

 

[Nick JD]

I would call that a decoction mash out, not a decoction mash.

True.

In another thread called Advanced Stovetop Techniques, where a triple decoction or a double hochkurz decoction is done, then sure - the decoction is pulled with a strainer - but in this case, as you say, it's more important for the decoction to be thinner. It's also a good idea to convey techniques applicable to the confidence level of the audience, starting with less-likely-to-scorch methods, than to try to show everyone you're smart and confound the poor brewer. Being blinded by brewing science seems to be a prevalent theme on brewing forums as the brewgeeks intellectually disseminate a once simple topic in bursts of self-appointed brilliance. A burnt decoction is akin to a festering fermenter - a drawing board situation. Most descriptions of the single decotion mash specify taking a watery decoction - and this is why I chose this as intermediate tutorial material.

The intent of this thread is that after trying this, brewers unfamiliar with decoction techniques will read up on it and find the jump and the nomeclature easy; just as my earlier attempts at helping people move to AG were never meant to replace "full sized" brewing or multi-vessel brewing, but to be leg up. Just trying to make the stepping stones a little less slippery.

 

[Nick JD]

Now we've got a simple stovetop decoction out of the way, it's time to illustrate a Stovetop Step Mash.

A Hefeweibier (see the funny big "B", it's a SS - no, not that kind of SS) Step Mash.

First, we need a little background of step mashing. Basically, we're holding the mash at a particular temperature to get what we want from the grain.

Initially, we want to extract some Hydroxycinnamic acid (and if that sounds like cinnamon then you've got it already). It's called a ferulic acid rest, which is the name of the group of compounds. The yeast changes this into the "clove" character of these beers. 45C

Then we want a short protein rest - like in the previous tutorial, to up the head retention of the beer. Those who know wheatbeers know head retention is a big plus with this style. We want a head that resembles ice cream. 52C

After this there's the maltose rest at the low end of the sacc rest scale. We want to make a bunch of easily fermentable sugaz here. 62C

Then we do a hot rest to get the dextrines that give body to the beer, and also aid head retention. 72C

And we mash out. 78C

Since we're applying megajoules of Stovetop POWER to the bottom of the 19L pot, it's a good idea to get into SWMBO's baking gear and rapidly disregard the "must be obeyed" bit. Get some pliers and her best teflon cake rack and bend the living crap out of the corners and jam it in the bottom of your pot.

 

[Nick JD]

Now we have instigated the wrath of SWMBO, we need to blitz (German theme here) the hell out of some grain. Round half wheat, half pilsner - and I've thrown in 50g of carmel wheat to give it a tiny touch of colour, which is more to avoid that washed-out look wheaties can have.

We can get the Strike Temp here with a mixture of the hot and cold tap combined. It's a matter of blending the two with the thermometer in the tap stream until it's close - filling the pot shy a liter or two, and then fixing it with the required hot or cold addition. With 3.55kg of grain, we need a 48C Strike.

Which gives a 45C rest to make the loverly cloves.

 

[Nick JD]

These first two rests (the acid and protein rests) are only ten minutes each, so there's no need to insulate the pot.

Now the cloves rest is done, we need to bump the temp up to 52C. I turn the stove's element to about 3/4 juice and stir constantly. I could probably be a lot slacker here, but I put on the new Foo Fighters album and stir away. It doesn't take long to get to 52C.

Leave that for 10 minutes.

Then we need to apply heat again to get it to the 62C rest. To make the sugaz. This took me 12 minutes, with stirring.

I've actually gone to 63C here, because this rest is 30 minutes long, and although I use insulation I get about a 1C drop in temp.

And it's on with the towel and the thinsulate sleeping bag.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Nick, why the caketin false bottom, when you have a bag?

Goomba

 

[Nick JD]

When the alarm goes off after 30 minutes, we can ramp it up to the 72C rest for 30 minutes and put the insulation back on.

Then it's again heated up to 78C for the mash out. I'm pretty sure with this technique that if you want to avoid any of these steps, then this mash out at 78C is the one to not bother with. It's not like it takes ages to get the wort out of the grain.

And the bag is lifted, squeezed and the sweet liquor brought to the boil (you know this bit well). The first hop addition (8g of Galena) is added to boil for 60 minutes. The second addition is 12g of Saaz at 15 minutes plus the whirlfloc.

We got 14L of 1.038 @ 75C, which is 1.062 at room temp. I think I'll dilute this one to 1.055 - which is about right for the style.

Yeast is Wyeast's 3068.

 

[Nick JD]

Nick, why the caketin false bottom, when you have a bag?

Goomba

Paranoia, mainly. You probably don't need one (polyester can handle a LOT of heat before melting), but I did it from the start and am too scared to not do it now.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Fair call. I'd probably take the same precaution, rather that take the risk of a couple of hours time.

Goomba

 

[going down a hill]

Hi Nick

Thanks for your technique threads, they have been a great help with moving to all grain. I have put two brews down so far, the first went off like a dream, no problems with it at all (dark lager). But my second brew (A variation of DrSmurtos Landlord - Marris Otter grain with Perle hops to 30ibu's) which is currently in a cube, it was both step mashed from 65c to 78c and a decoction mashed but it has the slightest taste of tannin to it. Where did I stuff up? Will the tannin flavour subside or am I stuck with it?

Thanks again for a couple of great info threads.

GDAH

 

[Nick JD]

Will the tannin flavour subside or am I stuck with it?

How would you describe this flavour? And can you give more detail about your mash schedule? When did you pull your decoction?

Here's a good explaination about why decoction mashing breaks the "boiling grain" rule:

The wort in mash is very concentrated, usually about 18–22 Plato. This means that the concentration of sugar is high. It also implies that the wort protein content is high as well since there have been no steps taken to remove protein from the wort, for example wort boiling and trub separation. During the mash boil in a decoction mash, protein from the malt reacts with tannins and precipitate. The pH is also “normal” (~5.2) at this point in time and the solubility of tannins is still relatively low compared to that seen in the last runnings from the lauter tun. I admit that the following statement is an educated guess but I would venture to bet that the reaction between protein and polyphenols is significant and explains why decocted beers are not overly astringent.

I like this explaination better:

We all know that tannins are a problem when sparging with water temps of 170+. Among others, John Palmer says that tannin extraction is a function of pH as well as temperature, and that tannins are only a problem when the pH rises to 6+.

When sparging, the mash may have a pH of around 5.2, but we are adding a load of water with a pH of between 7 and 8, so the result is a pH in the dangerous 6+ zone where tannins can be created, hence the problem.

By contrast, in a decoction only a small amount of mash water is taken with the grains to be boiled, so the pH stays at 5.2 or lower, which prevents tannins forming despite the decoction being taken to boiling temperatures.

I take about a 50:50 ratio of grain and liquid for the "mash out" decoction. For a triple decoction the pulled grain wants to be a "porridge" consistency. It doesn't boil, it "blurps". Must be constantly stirred.

 

[flano]

Nice one nick.
I was actually just down the LHBS telling an old timer how I did BIAB's.
I had to explain it like a big tea bag.
He reckons he is going to get on here check out the original thread and have a crack.

by the way, just got home from Indo.
Went to G-Land...what a joint!!!
I am very Bintanged out though.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Nice one nick.
I was actually just down the LHBS telling an old timer how I did BIAB's.
I had to explain it like a big tea bag.
He reckons he is going to get on here check out the original thread and have a crack.

Scary when the retailers are less knowledgable about the customer, given that knowledge is part of the experience and reason for a LHBS in the first place (and a tax deduction for making your own booze...... sort of).

Goomba

 

[flano]

Scary when the retailers are less knowledgable about the customer, given that knowledge is part of the experience and reason for a LHBS in the first place (and a tax deduction for making your own booze...... sort of).

Goomba

nah ..the old bloke was a customer, we were just chatting....as you do.
He asked what I was doing with the grain I'd just got.
He was doing cans of goop.

man ...could he talk.
He was still going as I walked out the door.

 

[Tanga]

Thanks for these threads. I'm on the verge of going BIAB AG and the descriptions of how the mash temps work and their purpose have brought me just a little closer. Mashing was a bit of a dark art to me. I got the vague idea, but not anything I could do myself. Your threads (and graphs) make it clearer. Me and my urn are getting excited. Might pop over to spotlight and get a price on tulle.

PS that wheatbeer sounds amazing!

 

[Xarb]

Another great thread Nick. :icon_cheers:

I've been step mashing for a protein rest in my lagers but I did it through infusion with near boiling water added to the mash. I wasn't sure if it was ok to raise the temp up slowly as my stove really struggles to heat my mash, next time I'll try it this way.

However once it was demonstrated that you can use a smaller pot, do a sparge, (shit I said the S-word h34r: )even brew over gravity and adjust the strength down, etc, it was very easy to brew cornie-sized or bigger batches with little extra effort, far less expenditure and as demonstrated, good quality results.

This is how I've felt since I started BIABing. I read a lot of people saying that if you don't keep BIAB in a single vessel you may as well be doing 3V. I couldn't bring myself to agree with this sentiment as using my spare fermenter for a cheeky sparge still seems a lot easier and cheaper than building a mash tun and all the other stuff that goes along with a traditional setup.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

This is how I've felt since I started BIABing. I read a lot of people saying that if you don't keep BIAB in a single vessel you may as well be doing 3V. I couldn't bring myself to agree with this sentiment as using my spare fermenter for a cheeky sparge still seems a lot easier and cheaper than building a mash tun and all the other stuff that goes along with a traditional setup.

I do a dual at the same time Big W pot stovetop brew (which gives me a truckload of headroom) rather than Maxi-BIAB, and I use a spare 9L pasta pot with a pasta strainer insert as the "sparging vessel".

I tried to do the esky mash tun thing, and found that it didn't shorten the brew day, didn't give me better efficiency, didn't take any less effort and did run the risk of (my DIY skills being the culprit of this) springing a leak during a mash.

After a bit of PMing from RdeVjun - I will probably consider doing a Maxi-BIAB in 2 pots to get a double batch into my 60L fermenter, and thus fill two kegs at the same time.

Goomba

 

[Nick JD]

I read a lot of people saying that if you don't keep BIAB in a single vessel you may as well be doing 3V.

I reckon it shouldn't be called a sparge with stovetop BIAB - more like a quick grain rinse and squeeze. Since this is high-gravity brewing, rinsing the grain is worth it if you can be bothered. It gives a couple of extra points of gravity for free.

Sparging is a mash tun method that can't be avoided. It's nice to be able to step mash without recirculating equipment.

Remember though - bag stepping requires a lot of stirring. And delicate application of heat. You've got to be patient - although not as patient as someone waiting for their esky tun to drain...

 

[Tanga]

So I checked out tulle today at spotlight. In the wedding section. Great racks of the stuff. It was the 'cool wash only' bit that put me off. I presume this is the stuff though? White would be the go? I will be making a false bottom for it, but it did have largish holes. The fine stuff didn't look strong enough.