20l Stovetop All Grain Aussie Lager

[gambit]

The two tutorials I've done are for a 9L batch, and for a 20L batch. I don't do either of them myself - they were done to show people both a simple way to learn, and the maximum that's easily do-able on the stove.

I make 18L batches. There's a sweet spot with the 19L pot round about 3.3-3.5kg of grain without sparging.

I'm thinking about doing a more definitive guide to Stovetop - including a lot more theory about what's going on (and using explained "brewing" words) - that's more in line with what I do to make beer on a regular basis, rather than what I'd teach someone who didn't know WTF they were doing.

These tutorials have been great for their simplicity, to relax the uninitiated, but I'd like to do a more in depth version that is more aligned with the "weekly batch".

Thanks Nick. Just done my first AG following your method. I adapted it to different recipe, suggested by my LHBS, but your method made it easy.
4.5 kg Pale Malt
100g Crystal Malt

70g Fuggles 60Min
14g East Kent Goldings 10Min
14g East Kent Goldings 0 Min

I managed to hit my OG as calculated by Brewmate, inspite of leaving quite a bit more than 500ml crud in the bottom of the pot. Just got a bit nervous when the wort stopped running clear.

I have one question - Should I transfer the 0 min hops to the fermentor?

Will definitely be trying it again, just as soon as SWMBO gets over me stinking th house out. :icon_chickcheers:

 

[alizzan]

Me too. Just put down a Dr Smurto's Golden Ale AG. Following your guide (and some of Ralph's from BIABrewer.info), I can't believe how easy it was, and how cheap it is. I've said it before, but massive, massive shout out to the cats paving the way with BIAB. There is no way I would have got into a 3V AG setup, and BIAB has opened the door for making so many more beers without that strange kit taste. Can't wait to start exploring the world of AG recipes. Nick, if you're ever in Melbourne, I owe you a beer for this.

 

[db73]

Me too. Just put down a Dr Smurto's Golden Ale AG. Following your guide (and some of Ralph's from BIABrewer.info), I can't believe how easy it was, and how cheap it is. I've said it before, but massive, massive shout out to the cats paving the way with BIAB. There is no way I would have got into a 3V AG setup, and BIAB has opened the door for making so many more beers without that strange kit taste. Can't wait to start exploring the world of AG recipes. Nick, if you're ever in Melbourne, I owe you a beer for this.

I'm doing this right now. What should the hops schedule be? Same as recipe or like this one with 25% more hops at the start of the boil?

 

[kelbygreen]

take the gravity and temp of the wort before you boil calculate what it is and then use that in a brewing software I just adjust the boil volume in beer smith until it comes up with the same pre boil gravity. If you preview the brewsheet it will tell you the pre boil gravity there. Adjust the bittering hops the same but anything after 20mins id prob leave the same.

Edit: oh if you put the original recipe into beersmith they have a adjust bitterness tab so it will calculate it all for you as the bitterness may be lower because a higher gravity boil so hit that button enter the bitterness thats in the recipe and it will adjust, you can do the same with the grain bill to if you get less or more efficiency

 

[RdeVjun]

db73, are you doing DSGA as a 20L stovetop? If so, use the original recipe's hops schedule, shouldn't be any need to adjust. If its the Aussie Lager in this thread, then 27g of 9.8% AA PoR for bittering.
After 60- odd of these over- gravity boils with no adjustment for utilisation and hitting the odd over- bittered one, I'm loathe to suggest increasing the hops on account of poorer utilisation, I just don't think it is as big a problem as once was made out. If you do some and find that the bitterness is not what you want, by all means then I'd adjust, but not as a rule from the beginning.
Congratulations you guys, BTW! :beerbang:
Edit: However, if it is just a case of scaling on account of the batch size, I'd just scale linearly based on IBU (not just mass).

 

[db73]

db73, are you doing DSGA as a 20L stovetop? If so, use the original recipe's hops schedule, shouldn't be any need to adjust. If its the Aussie Lager in this thread, then 27g of 9.8% AA PoR for bittering.
After 60- odd of these over- gravity boils with no adjustment for utilisation and hitting the odd over- bittered one, I'm loathe to suggest increasing the hops on account of poorer utilisation, I just don't think it is as big a problem as once was made out. If you do some and find that the bitterness is not what you want, by all means then I'd adjust, but not as a rule from the beginning.
Congratulations you guys, BTW! :beerbang:
Edit: However, if it is just a case of scaling on account of the batch size, I'd just scale linearly based on IBU (not just mass).

Thanks guys. I'm doing DSGA as a 20L stove top as per this technique. I'm a little nervous as this my first BIAB!! Anyway better go 10 mins left for mash time better get sparge water up to temp

 

[RdeVjun]

No probs db73, and don't be nervous! This is a time to be thrilled that you're making lots of fantastic beer quite easily and costs bugger all!
Just to clarify, I'd scale the recipe by IBU in this case. Simple if you've got brewing software to assist, if not, give us a hoy and we can work it out.

 

[db73]

No probs db73, and don't be nervous! This is a time to be thrilled that you're making lots of fantastic beer quite easily and costs bugger all!
Just to clarify, I'd scale the recipe by IBU in this case. Simple if you've got brewing software to assist, if not, give us a hoy and we can work it out.

I'm using brewmate but struggling to get my head around it. so far all readings are per this technique. 1.045 @ 58.5 degrees

 

[kelbygreen]

it would be about 1.059 at 20c. I think you will be alright you should produce a better beer then you have before. Your first one or two will be a bit confusing but you will learn from them so no need to worry just learn from it

 

[RdeVjun]

Its probably getting late now, however my suggestion is to take a few minutes to cool a small cup of wort sample in a cold water bath until its around 30C, then measure it with your hydrometer and then discard it (don't add it back to the chilled wort). The adjustments for temperature are:
35C +0.004
30C +0.003
25C +0.001
20C None
15C -0.001
As we can see, there's not a lot in it at around room temperature, however at higher temperatures the correction is considerable and also prone to error. Nb. this is also assuming your hydrometer is calibrated to 20C, most are, 15C is the other common reference temperature.

As far as the hops adjustment goes, you need to scale your hops for two factors: batch 'volume' (may get more complicated later, but that's good enough for now) and the hops AA% (Alpha Acid content- how 'strong' they are). So, if you use hops with exactly the same %AA as your recipe, it is a simple scaling- in your case if the original recipe is 25L and say the bittering addition is 25g, then for your 20L batch it will be 20g. That should yield the same IBU in your batch.
Now, with %AA, the same sort of linear scaling applies, i.e. if your hops are twice as strong in terms of %AA (say 10% instead of 5%), use half as much for the same batch volume. However, the important point is that to reproduce the same recipe at a different volume, you need to scale the additions for volume and %AA to yield the same IBU as the original recipe.
There is another factor to consider in hops utilisation, however brewing software usually takes care of that for you without any manual intervention. Similarly, most software packages scale a recipe quite simply as well, so long as your ingredients are accurate, so I'd take the time to get familiar with BrewMate- fiddle with various ingredients and see what the effects might be.
Hope that helps! :icon_cheers:

 

[db73]

Its probably getting late now, however my suggestion is to take a few minutes to cool a small cup of wort sample in a cold water bath until its around 30C, then measure it with your hydrometer and then discard it (don't add it back to the chilled wort). The adjustments for temperature are:
35C +0.004
30C +0.003
25C +0.001
20C None
15C -0.001
As we can see, there's not a lot in it at around room temperature, however at higher temperatures the correction is considerable and also prone to error. Nb. this is also assuming your hydrometer is calibrated to 20C, most are, 15C is the other common reference temperature.

As far as the hops adjustment goes, you need to scale your hops for two factors: batch 'volume' (may get more complicated later, but that's good enough for now) and the hops AA% (Alpha Acid content- how 'strong' they are). So, if you use hops with exactly the same %AA as your recipe, it is a simple scaling- in your case if the original recipe is 25L and say the bittering addition is 25g, then for your 20L batch it will be 20g. That should yield the same IBU in your batch.
Now, with %AA, the same sort of linear scaling applies, i.e. if your hops are twice as strong in terms of %AA (say 10% instead of 5%), use half as much for the same batch volume. However, the important point is that to reproduce the same recipe at a different volume, you need to scale the additions for volume and %AA to yield the same IBU as the original recipe.
There is another factor to consider in hops utilisation, however brewing software usually takes care of that for you without any manual intervention. Similarly, most software packages scale a recipe quite simply as well, so long as your ingredients are accurate, so I'd take the time to get familiar with BrewMate- fiddle with various ingredients and see what the effects might be.
Hope that helps! :icon_cheers:

Thanks RdeVjun,

Some food for thought. I really do need to a grasp on Brewmate and get my head around scaling recipes. All done and dusted now though. Got the no chill thing happening now so into the fermenter tomorrow. Looking forward to tasting the result. Also a big thanks to Nick JD for his awesome guide which got me into this in the first place.

Regardless I'm sure the result is going to taste better than the Coopers Pale Ale with BE2 that I'm drinking right now!

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

To add to what rdevjun is saying, IBU calculations will also appear to note IBU as a unilaterally changing measurement, whereas it is a good indicator, but 25 IBU derived from early hopping, as opposed to 25 IBU derived from late hopping are the same number, but entirely different things.

I'm drinking a 30IBU beer now, that was only hopped from 30 mins onwards to 10 min (with some dry hopping) and there is virtually no bitterness, just flavour. It doesn't taste like a 30IBU beer.

This is something I struggled with earlier in formulation of recipes - IBU and BU:GU are important, but some educated guesswork regarding flavour versus true bitterness (i.e. additions at 60 minutes, not 30 mins) is required. I find brewmate still doesn't do that - through no fault of its own - it's just one of those things that can be a little trial and error.

I generally work on a guesstimated formula of 15 min additions being worth half their actual IBU in perceived bitterness. That is 30 IBU derived from 15 minute additions adds a perceived IBU of around 15 (not 30). This generally helps me generate better balanced recipes. Whether it is scientifically correct, I'm not sure, but certainly I find it works for me.

Goomba

 

[db73]

I'm using brewmate but struggling to get my head around it. so far all readings are per this technique. 1.045 @ 58.5 degrees

Took an OG @ 1.030 after i topped up the fermenter to 20 litres.

That can't be good

 

[Mayor of Mildura]

Took an OG @ 1.030 after i topped up the fermenter to 20 litres.

That can't be good

You've just made dr smurtos lite ale :lol: I bet it'll still taste pretty good. Next time check the gravity before you top up in case your efficiency wasn't so good.

 

[db73]

You've just made dr smurtos lite ale :lol: I bet it'll still taste pretty good. Next time check the gravity before you top up in case your efficiency wasn't so good.

I'm thinking my efficiency was horrible

 

[NickB]

Quite possibly, but it's all a learning experience.

Take for example myself: have brewed all-grain for about 7 years now, and only 3 weeks ago gave BIAB a go for the first time (I usually run a HERMS setup at home).

Was extremely surprised by just how easy the process was, and whilst I did get a better efficiency than you, db73, I learnt just how easy this method was, and how much time and effort it will save those who are new to AG.

As for the Dr Smurto's lite ale, just go with it, and adjust for next time. Maybe look at the options of sparging if you have the capacity, and if not, make sure you're giving the bag a good squeeze to extract all the goodness, and don't boil too hard (easy to do on the stovetop). As mentioned above, unless you're efficiency is extremely low or extremely high, leave the hop additions as is, and adjust next brew.

Good to see so many new people getting in on BIAB. It really has been a shining example of using what you have to create some great beers.

Cheers

 

[db73]

Quite possibly, but it's all a learning experience.

Take for example myself: have brewed all-grain for about 7 years now, and only 3 weeks ago gave BIAB a go for the first time (I usually run a HERMS setup at home).

Was extremely surprised by just how easy the process was, and whilst I did get a better efficiency than you, db73, I learnt just how easy this method was, and how much time and effort it will save those who are new to AG.

As for the Dr Smurto's lite ale, just go with it, and adjust for next time. Maybe look at the options of sparging if you have the capacity, and if not, make sure you're giving the bag a good squeeze to extract all the goodness, and don't boil too hard (easy to do on the stovetop). As mentioned above, unless you're efficiency is extremely low or extremely high, leave the hop additions as is, and adjust next brew.

Good to see so many new people getting in on BIAB. It really has been a shining example of using what you have to create some great beers.

Cheers

Thanks NickB,

1. Firstly I don't think I sparged well enough
2. Secondly I think I might of over boiled a little but wouldn't have thought that would lead to poor efficientcy

All and all I loved doing it a will definately go again with improvments

 

[NickB]

Thanks NickB,

1. Firstly I don't think I sparged well enough
2. Secondly I think I might of over boiled a little but wouldn't have thought that would lead to poor efficientcy

All and all I loved doing it a will definately go again with improvments

Sure, you can sparge with BIAB (although it's not a necessity), and from what I read, you should get better efficiency. Really, I think it all comes down to what's 'left in the bag' so to speak. If you have lots of sugars left due to a thick mash (take for example a 19L pot, 10L water, 4kg grain) then sure, sparge next brew and see if efficiency improves. Even give the bag a good squeeze, and run maybe 2L from the kitchen kettle through....

Over boiling should give you a higher gravity wort, but as you diluted in the fermenter to 20 odd L, you're back to a 1.030 SG. Next brew, if you're diluting in the fermenter, add the water in 1 or 2L increments until you get to your Starting Gravity. This may or may not be 23L, but if not, just ferment with whatever volume you have, and you'll likely hit your predicted FG. Adjust for the next brew by either using more grain, or sparging into your kettle.

Cheers

 

[pimpsqueak]

I'm thinking my efficiency was horrible

Mine was too on my 1st BIAB. 56% or thereabouts IIRC. Did my 2nd one on saturday and got up to around 76-77%
All I did was to implement pretty much all the suggestions that fellow AHBers put my way.
My final step to improve efficiency will be to get a finer crush for my grains, but if it turns out that 77% is the norm, then that's fine with me.

 

[NickB]

My final step to improve efficiency will be to get a finer crush for my grains, but if it turns out that 77% is the norm, then that's fine with me.

+1 this.

Even with my HERMS setup, I have recently taken to double crushing my grains (sure, a smaller gap on the mill would do the same thing!) and my efficiency has jumped from around 70% to well into the 80s and sometimes the 90s

Cheers