# Brew Day Water pH



## wobbly

I note in Gordon Strong's book "Modern Home Brew Recipes" he comments that his and the Sierra Nevada Breweries standard practice is to treat all of their brewing water (mash and sparge) with Phosphoric Acid to a pH of around 5.5 before they do anything else like adding any grains to the mash tun etc. Nowhere in Gordons recipes can I see where, as a routine, he uses Acid Malt as part of his Grist/Grain Bill make up. This isn't in keeping with the philosophy on brewing water chemistry detailed by AJ deLange or Martin Brungard

Do other "All Grain Brewers" adopt a similar approach or do they follow the outputs of software such as Bru'n Water, EZ Water etc and leave there brewing water (RO, Distilled, Tap or Rain Water) at what ever it's pH value is and build the brewing water profile (by adding brewing salts) based on the grain bill and use either Acid malt or Liquid Acid to trim/adjust the final pH value.

What would the advantage be of adjusting the brewing water pH as a first step? 

Cheers

Wobbly


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## evoo4u

Caveat - I'm a learner with water pH.

I understand that water (rain water in my case) has a low buffering power, and it's native pH is overwhelmed by the effect of the grains in the mash. To me, it follows that there's not much point in adjusting the pH of the water prior to the mash. I'll be happy to get to know MY water's properties down pat, and concentrate on, and adjust, the flavour aspects (ie - hoppy vs malty) I'm after in a particular brew.

On the other hand, if the raw water has a significant mineral content, then maybe it's beneficial to adjust it's pH first. But with rainwater, I can't see the benefit of fiddling with the pH pre-mash.


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## manticle

My understanding has always been to adjust mash pH, acidify sparge water where necessary.


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## rude

I spose if they know the beer (grains used)

They know the mineral content of the water

Then they would know that they need a certain ph of the water to get it where they want it

Bit like using Brun Water Calc

I spose he cant do that in his recipes because he does'nt know you're water mineral content

Disregard this if thats not what you ment as Ive had a couple


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## wobbly

Strong's book states his water is horrible for brewing so he uses RO water which you would think would be low in Alkalinity. He comments that he checks the Total Dissolved Solids and adjust his mash water with Phosphoric acid to around 5.5 and then adds salts to suit the style he is brewing.

There is an "inference" that Sierra Nevada also use RO water (no direct quote) and that they stated/indicated at a workshop that they adjust all the brewing water to 5.5 pH

Not sure where this topic will lead but I thought I would just put it out there to see what others do

Cheers

Wobbly


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## rude

I use Ro but have been using acid malt to correct ph

Did try at local lhbs to get phosphoric as it appealed to me but he didnt have it

I put salts in the grist & kettle to suit style then underlet


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## Blind Dog

I used to measure brewing water pH (with the low range strips) and then the mash, but consistently found that for all but the lightest beers (Pils, kolsch etc) mash pH was in the target range without acid additions, and a small % of Acidulated malt got the mash into the right range for the light beers. I rarely bother to measure it anymore


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## Cervantes

I use RO water and the EZ Water spreadsheet to calculate the mineral and (Lactic) acid additions, which I add before mashing in. I then check the PH during the mashing process and adjust if I need to, which isn't very often.


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## wobbly

rude said:


> Did try at local lhbs to get phosphoric as it appealed to me but he didnt have it


 Grain and Grape have 85% Phos http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/products/category/MYPFQKLF-adjuncts-and-chemicals/8ACID%20PHOSPHORIC%20250%20ML and they will post it to you. 

You need to ring and speak with one of the staff to organize it because it isn't a standard parcel post

I had a bottle sent to me (Melbourne to Bibra Lake WA) and from memory the additional postage cost for it was about another $8

Cheers

Wobbly


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## wobbly

If/when using Lactic (88%) and /or Phosphoric (85%) acid with "soft water" (RO or rain) generally the amount of acid required to adjust the water (based on Bru'n Water) is very little and not easily measured even with a mini medicine measuring syringe.

Do any of you dilute your acid with distilled water to reduce the strength and make the measurements easier to read and therefore reduce the likely hood of adding too much

Cheers

Wobbly


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## manticle

No but I've become quite lax with how I measure most things, even grain, hops and water volume. Temp I'm still anal about but everything else is more like cooking for me these days. I know my system and I know the resulting beers and my preferences so a sprinkle of this, squirt of another and a dash of something else make delicious results, gravity and final volume bang on each time. I'm blessed with very soft, clean starting water and would only ever recommend this approach to someone who is very comfortable with their system, processes and results.


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## rude

I like you're chef outlook gold


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## Danscraftbeer

Now I have a good PH probe I find my filtered Melbourne Water is ph-6. Pre filtering its more like 7.3. Unsure of the chemistry going on their but at ph-6 its perfect for pale beer. 2.3% Acidulated Malt gets the mash bang on ph-5.2. I love it when that happens. No adjustments necessary.
Only additions for a 40lt brew is a measly 1 gram of Calcium Chloride and 1 gram of Gypsum for the 22lt Mash water.

Just a question: I don't see many using Citric acid to adjust mash PH. is there some reason why? I used to use it (only tiny amounts needed) but its just about getting the right percentage of acidulated malt now.


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## wobbly

OK can someone (anyone) offer me an explanation/advise.

Note I brew with a 20lt Braumeister

I am new to "Soft water" (rain water) brewing and water adjustments for both pH and salts.

I have a reliable pH meter that reads to two decimal places and is calibration checked before each brew

My tap water is high in Chlorides (165ppm+/-) Sodium (105ppm+/-) Lowish in Sulphate (20ppm+/-) Lowish in Calcium (25ppm+/-) Alkalinity (77ppm+/-) Hardness (90ppm +/-)
These figures are from the water authority and are the annual "Mean" so could be lower/higher month to month. I haven't had the water specifically tested 

To reduce the Sodium and Chloride levels back to lower levels I have diluted with 90% rain water (assumed virtual blank canvas) for a total brew day water (mash and sparge) of 38lts.

For a grain bill of 3.5kg Ale malt (5.6 EBC) 600g Munich (14 EBC) 300g Wheat (3.5 EBC) 250g Carapils (3.9 EBC) 100g Acid Malt (3.5 EBC) Bru'n Water for a particular water profile indicates to add 5.6g Gypsum, 3.5g Calcium Chloride and 2.28 mls of 85% phosphoric acid to achieve a pH of 5.32 (EZ Water indicates similar figuares)

I added the salts to the brew water (not acid yet) and dough in and wait 10/15 mins and take a sample cool to 20C and and pH indicates 5.28?

After a further 10/15 mins I take another sample cool to 20C and the pH now reads 5.36. Added 0.5mls of 85% Phos Acid waited 10/15 mins and took sample cooled to 20C and pH now 5.28

What I am struggling with/to understand is:-

1) Why is the initial pH reading after 10/15 mins (5.28) lower than subsequent reading (5.36)?
2) Why are both Bru'n and EZ Water indicating to add up to 4 times the amount of 85% Phos Acid as physical sampling/testing indicates. Is it that my water mix has virtually no buffering capacity (low/zero Alkalinity) 

Today's brew is the second I have done with my "Rain Water" mix and the above grain bill and on both occasions the results/trend has been the same ie. Initial pH reading low and only requiring to use a lot less Phos acid than indicated by the software.

Any advise/comments would be appreciated

Cheers

Wobbly


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## wobbly

Following on from the above questions according to this article:- http://accidentalis.com/archives/828 the pH of the mash will rise following dough in due to the buffering effect of the various malts on the mash water which answers my first question 

However I am still a bit confused about why both Bru'n and EZ Water are over shooting the amounts of acid (phos) required by about a factor of 4. I have been back and looked at the inputs on numerous occasions looking for a basic mistake to jump out at me (light bulb moment) but all to no avail so far. I have checked the syringe I am using just to make sure that it in fact graduated in mls. 

Clearly there must be something amiss with my inputs seeing both programs report the same acid requirement!!!!!

Wobbly


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## Cervantes

Wobbly,

Maybe try with 100% rain or RO water and see if you still get the same results.

It could be that the 10% tap water is way out from the water reports and is throwing the spreadsheets off.

Or maybe not.


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## Cervantes

wobbly said:


> Do any of you dilute your acid with distilled water to reduce the strength and make the measurements easier to read and therefore reduce the likely hood of adding too much


No. I'd never thought of that before. I only have to add a few ml of lactic and just use a small syringe.


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## wobbly

Cervantes said:


> Wobbly,
> 
> Maybe try with 100% rain or RO water and see if you still get the same results.
> 
> It could be that the 10% tap water is way out from the water reports and is throwing the spreadsheets off.
> 
> Or maybe not.


Hi Cervantes

I'm at loss as for the pH to drop so dramatically you would think it would be associated with there being virtually no buffering (bicarbonate or carbonate) in the water. I have set both of these values to zero and still get a requirement to add around 2.28mls of Phos Acid. What I don't understand is that when I add that amount of Phos Acid for the grain bill as per post my post #14 the resultant pH of the mash water prior to adding the grains is in the mid 3's measure at room temperature 

In your post above you are adding a "few ml" of lactic acid without issue.

In post #8 you indicated that you add your minerals and lactic acid to you brew water* before mashing in*. Have you checked the pH of the brew water before you have added the grains and if so what is it? 

Maybe I'm stressing over nothing and that if/when I add the grains the mash will sort it self out.

Maybe this is a light bulb moment!!!!

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Cervantes

wobbly said:


> In post #8 you indicated that you add your minerals and lactic acid to you brew water* before mashing in*. Have you checked the pH of the brew water before you have added the grains and if so what is it?
> 
> Maybe I'm stressing over nothing and that if/when I add the grains the mash will sort it self out.


Wobbly,

No I don't think that I have. Unfortunately I'm away at work at the moment, so can't check my records.

Personally I don't get too excited about the water chemistry side of things. I just fiddle around in EZ Water, add roughly what it tells me to and generally end up with pretty good beer.


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## wobbly

Hi Cervantes 

It's not my intention to get anal about it all either. 

My view on this and life in general is to find out/understand as much as you can about a process/environment and then take from it a little or a lot depending on how important it is to you or the process.

Next brew I will try just progressively dosing the mash water with increments of the recommended Phos Acid amount until the water gets to pH 5.5 and then dough in and see what the mash pH settles out at and then as/if necessary add further small amounts until it hits target. That will put me in the ball park for future brews.

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Blind Dog

Wobbly

Just put your numbers from post #14 through EZ water and end up with a mash pH at room temp of 5.4 without any acid addition (but after the 100g of acidulated malt and after the salt additions you mention), and all minerals except magnesium (which you don't mention) in the desired ranges. Personally, I'd be happy with that and wouldn't be looking to add acid.

I now brew with filtered Melbourne water and treat it as a blank canvas as even before filtering it has little in the way of minerals or hardness. I rarely need to add more than a small percentage of acidulated malt, even for light beer, to get the pH of the mash to 5.4 or thereabouts. My measurements are with low range pH strips, so maybe not that reliable, but as they've always matched the EZ water calc, I've never been that concerned. In terms of salt additions, I tend to add only calcium chloride and epsom salts and balance on the malty side; gypsum makes only an occasional appearance. The results have been good and I now rarely bother to measure mash pH


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## wobbly

Hi Blind Dog

I get the same predicted results and the mean Mg of my tap water is 5.5ppm
It's just only recently that I have considered the brewing water chemistry in any detail in an endeavour to remove an astringency I taste in my beers (others don't or are just being polite!!) 
I have been reading a couple of Gordon Strong and Ray Daniel's books on brewing and beer design and rightly or wrongly have decided to target a mash pH of 5.3 for my for my pale ales and build a water profile to achieve that using Bru'n Water.
As indicated in post #18 I think my issue is that I was adding the acid with the salts to the total brewing water (38lt) and then checking the pH prior to adding the grain and expecting it to be within range give or take a bit which it wasn't and I didn't/don't understand why.
So I was ditching the water and starting again without the acid addition and checking the mash pH after dough in and adding small amounts of acid every 15 mins to target my mash pH but found that I was only getting to around pH of 5.4 after about half the amount/number of additions and 45 mins into the mash phase
From my other reading/research it appears that the grain will add to the buffering effect of the water and the pH should be within predicted range during the mash phase and that may well be the case. 
I have difficulty in just doing something without understanding what the outcome will be I need to understand what's going on and what causes change
So as indicated in my previous post I will adopt a different approach to how and when I add the acid (based on what Gordon Strong does targeting a pre mash pH of 5.5) in my next brew to see if that gives me the answer I am looking for.
Once I understand the "Why" of whats happening I will be more relaxed about the acid additions and how they will impact on my mash.

Thanks for you input

Wobbly


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## Black n Tan

wobbly said:


> Hi Blind Dog
> 
> As indicated in post #18 I think my issue is that I was adding the acid with the salts to the total brewing water (38lt) and then checking the pH prior to adding the grain and expecting it to be within range give or take a bit which it wasn't and I didn't/don't understand why.​ You are trying to target a mash pH of 5.3 not the brewing water. The mash pH is dictated by the acidity added by the grains (lower pH) against the buffering capacity of the water (termed residual alkalinity, RA, which will drive pH up). Carbonate and bicarbonate ions increase the RA (i.e.. drive mash Ph higher, they bind and neutralise acid), whilst Ca and Mg reduce the RA (ie. drive mash pH lower, they release acid by reacting with phosphates in the mash). Acid can also be used to lower the ph of the mash into the desired range. The pH of the water is largely irrelevant: it is the residual alkalinity that is important and it is not measured by the pH of the water.
> So I was ditching the water and starting again without the acid addition and checking the mash pH after dough in and adding small amounts of acid every 15 mins to target my mash pH but found that I was only getting to around pH of 5.4 after about half the amount/number of additions and 45 mins into the mash phaseThe acid will drive the ph lower so the fact that you have only reached pH5.4 in the mash with half the acid when your target is pH5.3 makes perfect sense and suggest the calculators are working. Add more acid and I would expect your mash pH to hit your target of 5.3. I measure the mash pH about 10 minutes after mash in. There is little point in measuring it throughout the mash and attempting to adjust on the fly.
> From my other reading/research it appears that the grain will add to the buffering effect of the water and the pH should be within predicted range during the mash phase and that may well be the case.
> I have difficulty in just doing something without understanding what the outcome will be I need to understand what's going on and what causes change
> So as indicated in my previous post I will adopt a different approach to how and when I add the acid (based on what Gordon Strong does targeting a pre mash pH of 5.5) in my next brew to see if that gives me the answer I am looking for. I suggest you concentrate on the mash pH not adjusting the brewing water to a particular pH.
> Once I understand the "Why" of whats happening I will be more relaxed about the acid additions and how they will impact on my mash. Hope that helps. Make sure you understand pH, Residual Alkalinity and the effect of acid and the various ions on the mash pH.
> 
> Thanks for you input
> 
> Wobbly


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## Blind Dog

You may have come across them already, but I found these usedful for a layperson:
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/understanding-the-mash-ph/residual-alkalinity-and-mash-ph
http://byo.com/hops/item/1545-understanding-residual-alkalinity-ph-advanced-homebrewing

Maybe the red herring is that Mr Strong adjusts all his water to a pH of 5.5; I don't recall him saying this was to help adjust mash pH. As his method/system includes sparging I'd suspect it might be to ensure there is no extraction of tannins during the sparge. Mere speculation on my part


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## wobbly

Black n Tan

Thanks for your input and in no way wanting to sound like a "Know it All". From my various readings I have a reasonable ( I use that term loosely) working knowledge of the effects of Residual Alkalinity, how acid will drop pH and what salts will do to the mash, boil and ferment etc.

And yes I agree had I chosen to add more Phos acid part way through the mash the pH would have gone lower.

I am using less than desirable brewing quality tap water diluted with 90% rain water and if I assume the rain water to be a blank canvas then the RA of the 38lt of tap/rain water mix brew water has an RA of something like about only *"6ppm"* that is assuming the Calcium, Magnesium and Alkalinity in the mix with 90% rain water values drop by an equal 90% which indicates to me that there is very little buffering capacity in the 38lt of water
With respect to mineral additions Bru'n and EZ Water seem to adjust accordingly but when it comes to the acid adjustment/addition the way I have been doing it to date is way off the mark and hence my intention to target acidifying the 38lt of brewing water (pre mash) to a pH of 5.5 as Gordon Strong and Sierra Nevada Brewing reportedly do and then make their brewing mineral adjustments, dough in and then add any further acid as required after checking the pH at room temperature after around 15 mins elapsed mash time
I just want to get a handle on this and in future be able to do as Manticle above stated add a "Bit of this and a Dash of that etc" because I will by then know how my system with my water will react.
If after the next brew I am still puzzeled as to what is going on I will get a sample of my tap/rain water mixed analysed as a next step.

Again thank you for your input

Cheers

Wobbly


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## wobbly

Thanks for those links Red Dog. I have seen and read them both before

The point a haven't/may not have made clear in this so far is with the mixed water profile I have put into both EZ and Bru'n and the grain bill to arrive at a mash pH of 5.3 both indicate that it is necessary to add a number of mls of Phos Acid.

In the last two brews I have done with the same grain bill the mash pH about 10 mins after dough in *without any Phos Acid addition* has been around 5.28 and slowly rises to around 5.4 during the mash which I guess would be in keeping with what the various authors have to say the impact of Calcium will have on mash water with a starting low to very low Alkalinity and they talk about values less than 50ppm

So what I am trying to come to grips with is why do both programs (spread sheets) call for around 2mls of Phos acid to be added to the mash water.

This position has raised it's head because I have been checking pH before dough in and throughout the mash so as to validate the spread sheets in my own mind and so far I don't have an answer/explanation for what I am seeing 

Wobbly


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## Black n Tan

wobbly said:


> So what I am trying to come to grips with is why do both programs (spread sheets) call for around 2mls of Phos acid to be added to the mash water.


I have used both programs and have found them both to be predictive for my situation. I use soft and low residual alkalinity Melbourne water and for a a pale grain bill I would need to use about 2% acidulated malt to get the mash Ph to 5.3 with a thin mash (5L/kg grain). I am not sure on your grain bill but assuming it is pale and you have a thin mash and a seemingly low RA water then i am not surprised you need to a small amount of acid to get the pH to 5.3 as these programs suggest. So I think the more likely scenario is either a/ you have entered your water profile or your grain bill/mash volumes incorrectly, or b/ your rainwater is not a blank slate (may be it contains calcium or vegetation that has acidified the water). You seem to use both acidulated malt and phosphoric acid in the mash, which makes me wonder if you have correctly entered the acidulated malt (there is a drop down box in Brun water for acidulated malt).


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## mabrungard

Unfortunately, Gordon's advice is quite misleading and relatively useless. As noted above, he uses RO water for all of his brewing. For water such as that, it only takes a drop or two of acid to drop its pH to 5.5, but that has done nothing substantial to the brewing suitability of the water. The water in Chico, California is right out of the Sierra Nevada mountains and it too has very little mineralization or alkalinity. Like RO, it only takes a drop or two to drop its pH. Again a useless endeavor to the uninformed. 

Water pH is a nearly useless indicator of a water's suitability for brewing. The primary thing we brewers are interested in is alkalinity. Depending upon the alkalinity of your raw water, using pH as the deciding parameter for your water treatment can leave you in big trouble. You actually need to know the raw water alkalinity and then add the proper amount of acid to bring that water's alkalinity down to under 25 ppm alkalinity.

Like many brewers, Gordon is not too interested in getting too much into water and its treatment. That is understandable since there are so many 'moving' parts when it comes to brewing water chemistry. But with a tool like Bru'n Water, a lot of regular folks have figured out how to adjust their water to fit all of their beers.

Brewing water chemistry is not EZ. Get the proper tool and take the time to understand it. You will be suitably rewarded.


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## wobbly

Thanks for your comments Martin

I will now go and get a sample of my water mix (10% tap and 90% rain water) analysed and start over rather than using the "Mean" data from the Water Authority and assuming that the rain water addition is virtually a blank canvas

Wobbly


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## wobbly

If/when one of the water tools (EZ-Water, Bru'n etc) calls for an amount of acid (either Lactic or Phosphoric) to adjust/lower the mash pH to the desired range how/when do you do it.

Do you add the acid at the same time as the other brewing salts *before Dough-In*, do you add it at the *same time as you Dough-In* or do you add it *after you Dough-In *

The reason I ask is that on the Brumeister Forum there is a topic discussing the time it takes to cycle the total mash water through the grain bed and for the mash pH to drop and stabilise with times of 10 minutes quoted 

In the overall scheme of things it may not be important as far as having the correct/target mash pH early in the first phase if doing a step mash but I just thought I would see what others do

Cheers

Wobbly


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## MHB

With a bit of experience with your local water and the types of beer you are making you should have a pretty good idea what you need to add and what your water additions will do in terms of pH,
I am inclined to treat all my water in the kettle, heat to strike temperature, then pump the strike water as an underlet into the mash tun. The balance in the kettle pumped up to the HLT for further heating before sparging.
Once mashed in, take a sample and check the pH - adjust at need.

Just fine when using a "3V" system depending on what you are brewing on you will have to make changes to suit. When I brewed on a Braumeister I would mash in at 20oC recirculate for a few minutes test and adjust before starting the program. Plenty of options - but for me adding the salts before mashing in works best.
Mark


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## Danscraftbeer

2c. Wobbly. You sound more read into this than I am but you may as well just use 100% rain water knowing it to be a blank canvas. Eliminate some doubts.

I also remember a key point about the ph of the water to start with and how much does the PH mean? = Not much. Its the alkalinities and the grain.

I'm discovering things that surprize me on this water chemistry from experimenting and taking notes. Less is better you can add lots of added ingrediences that may just cancel each other out. Unnecessary added ingredients are unnecessary fussing about. I like the purity laws approach and the fact that the grains are the best buffering self adjusting part of it. You can simply make beer without any water additions at all but I am still fiddling looking to polish things too.
Taking notes is the key and the better reference than software in the long run. I imagine the software itself must have a disclaimer that sais these variations can happen.

Edit: Phosphoric Acid is sanitizer basically. Like Starsan. I can trust it a little as being no rinse but will not add it as an ingredient. 
I am reluctant about artificial ingredients though.


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## timmi9191

Danscraftbeer said:


> Edit: Phosphoric Acid is sanitizer basically. Like Starsan. I can trust it a little as being no rinse but will not add it as an ingredient.
> I am reluctant about artificial ingredients though.


Which acid (or other addition to effect water chemistry) would you consider not artificial?


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## Danscraftbeer

To add in short: My water to start with used to be ph-7. Now my filtered water I use is reading at 5.3! :huh: . That's the lowest I ever started with but the outcome PH of the mash can turn out the same at 5.2 is my target. My Melbourne tap water is typically 7.3 but at them moment its reading 6.8. 
These thing just don't have significance at my layman level of scientific experiments.


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## Danscraftbeer

timmi9191 said:


> Which acid (or other addition to effect water chemistry) would you consider not artificial?


Acidulated Malt. As its a product made for the purity laws. Or Sour mash? same thing basically. Raw grain naturally fermented by the Lacto something bacteria something something.


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## timmi9191

Danscraftbeer said:


> Acidulated Malt. As its a product made for the purity laws. Or Sour mash? same thing basically. Raw grain naturally fermented by the Lacto something bacteria something something.


How do you acidify sparge water with a malt?


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## Danscraftbeer

I used



timmi9191 said:


> How do you acidify sparge water with a malt?


I used to use Citric Acid (yeah yeah) but its a tiny wee amount and its made of citrus yeah? hehe. About >1g per 15lt water to get PH 6.4.
Now my filtered water is PH-5.2. That's good on its own without any additions. As far as I know.


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## manticle

You can buy food grade lactic acid - the same as in the acidulated malt.
Calcium sulphate and calcium chloride are naturally occuring salts.
Beer is not a naturally occurring chemical.


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## MHB

I don't have a problem with Phosphoric Acid but prefer Lactic as naturally occurring Lactic accounts for about 90% of the acidity in a mash, just adding a little more of what is there anyway makes sense to me. I am also a big fan of the buffering capacity that Lactic provides to the mash.
When it comes to Salts, used properly they can make a big difference to the beer, I also add some Zinc especially if I am using Australian malts as Australia is very Zn deficient.

pH on its own isn't very useful, used in conjunction with sensible salt additions it's about the most important controllable variables after temperature in mashing.
Have good control of your mash temperature and your water chemistry I think takes you a long way toward being able to repeatedly make good beer.
Mark


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## timmi9191

Danscraftbeer said:


> I used to use Citric Acid (yeah yeah) but its a tiny wee amount and its made of citrus yeah? hehe. About >1g per 15lt water to get PH 6.4.
> Now my filtered water is PH-5.2. That's good on its own without any additions. As far as I know.


Did you ever consider the secondary effects that citric acid and excessive amounts of acidulated malt can have on the flavour profile. Phosphoric acid adds phosphates which are already in large amounts within the malt. My sparge acidification based on the silvan dam water report involves only .4ml of 96% phosphoric acid in 32l of water. Point being is that phosphoric acid is great to use for acidification and doubles as sanitisier.

I highly recommend reading "Water" by Palmer and Kaminski. Greatly improved by knowledge and my processes.


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## wobbly

MHB said:


> Once mashed in, take a sample and check the pH - adjust at need.
> When I brewed on a Braumeister I would mash in at 20oC recirculate for a few minutes test and adjust before starting the program. Plenty of options - but for me adding the salts before mashing in works best.
> Mark


Thanks for your answers to date

I use a 20lt Braumeister and treat all my brewing water (mash and Sparge) with brewing salts (Gypsum and Calcium Chloride) at room temperature (prior to heating) and then drain off the sparge water volume 

I use a percentage of Acid Malt in all brews generally 2% max and find that to achieve the target mash pH it is necessary to add some further acid in the form of Phosphoric or Lactic 

My question related to when to add this additional acid

Before Dough-In
At dough-in ,
After Dough-In 
Cheers

Wobbly


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## timmi9191

MHB said:


> I also add some Zinc especially if I am using Australian malts as Australia is very Zn deficient.


How much and what form of Zinc you adding Mark? 

My thinking has been that yeast nutrient would add more than enough Zinc.


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## Black n Tan

wobbly said:


> I use a percentage of Acid Malt in all brews generally 2% max and find that to achieve the target mash pH it is necessary to add some further acid in the form of Phosphoric or Lactic
> 
> My question related to when to add this additional acid
> 
> Before Dough-In
> At dough-in ,
> After Dough-In
> Cheers
> 
> Wobbly


If you are not hitting your target mash pH, then why not just add more acidulated malt next time. I see some people that write a recipe that uses both acidulated malt and some acid, for reasons I am not sure. Of course if you measure your mash pH and it is a little high then you can always add some acid, but why formulate a recipe that includes both acidulated malt and lactic acid? Why not keeps things simple and use one or the other? But to directly answer you question, I would add before dough in so that the grain is not hit by a wave of acidity that may happen if you add after dough in.


----------



## MHB

wobbly said:


> Thanks for your answers to date
> 
> I use a 20lt Braumeister and treat all my brewing water (mash and Sparge) with brewing salts (Gypsum and Calcium Chloride) at room temperature (prior to heating) and then drain off the sparge water volume
> 
> I use a percentage of Acid Malt in all brews generally 2% max and find that to achieve the target mash pH it is necessary to add some further acid in the form of Phosphoric or Lactic
> 
> My question related to when to add this additional acid
> 
> Before Dough-In
> At dough-in ,
> After Dough-In
> Cheers
> 
> Wobbly


Salts before certainly, with the acid if you are confidant that your additions are going to be close then with the salts. Might not be a bad idea to hold back some of the acid and recirculate for about 10 minutes than tweak the pH.
Exception being Chalk as its practically insoluble I would sprinkle it on the malt, recirculate for 10 minutes than adjust, not that I am the worlds biggest fan of chalk, which is why I got to playing around with Calcium Lactate, Chalk and Lactic Acid react to make CaLac which is quite soluble and in conjunction with excess Lactic acid makes a very powerful buffer complex, so the pH tends to stay where I want it.

Just a note on Acid Malt, it is just Pilsner malt sprayed in Lacto broth and standardised so that 1% of grist will reduce the pH by 0.1 which makes calculations very easy. If you want to lower the pH a bit more just adjust your grist acid malt % as needed. Remember that the pH will take a little time to balance out, give it a chance before making adjustments.

Might be a good idea to lower the pH of your sparge water a bit more than you would your mash water, helps to block tannins leaching into the wort.
Likewise, adding Ca and adjusting the pH near the end of the boil has its upside, certainly will help break to flock and the yeast will be happy - around 5.0-5.2ph is good.

With brewing sometimes you just have to wonder if you should have started asking questions - every time you do it gets more complicated.
Mark


----------



## MHB

timmi9191 said:


> How much and what form of Zinc you adding Mark?
> 
> My thinking has been that yeast nutrient would add more than enough Zinc.


I use Zinc Chloride, very judiciously, too much is poisonous to yeast so when the nutrients are formulated they tend to be based on the Zn content of northern hemisphere malts that have more Zn than does Australian malt.
Although poison in large amounts, Zn is absolutely vital for yeast health. So I add 0.05mg/L of Zn, I have been wondering lately, given the number of people on AHB who whinge about stuck or incomplete ferments - are people using nutrients or getting enough Zn in their worts by other means, would be worth thinking about if you are having otherwise unexplained fermentation issues, particularly if they are using all Oz malts.
Mark


----------



## Jack of all biers

MHB said:


> I use Zinc Chloride, very judiciously, too much is poisonous to yeast so when the nutrients are formulated they tend to be based on the Zn content of northern hemisphere malts that have more Zn than does Australian malt.
> Although poison in large amounts, Zn is absolutely vital for yeast health. So I add 0.05mg/L of Zn, I have been wondering lately, given the number of people on AHB who whinge about stuck or incomplete ferments - are people using nutrients or getting enough Zn in their worts by other means, would be worth thinking about if you are having otherwise unexplained fermentation issues, particularly if they are using all Oz malts.
> Mark


Yes Mark. You should forward them to this thread you had a hand in - http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/63985-water-chemistry-additions-of-zinc/page-2

EDIT - Mark, do you still sell food grade Zinc Chloride?


----------



## manticle

Mark sold the business to brewman so check there.


----------



## Jack of all biers

Nah, they don't seem to have it (can't find it with their search function). Found this site though, but not sure if its food grade? https://plantessentials.com.au/products/zinc-chloride-250g

EDIT - I contacted the above zinc seller (via a chat function on their website?) They stated that it's pharmaceutical grade, but cautioned against using it for brewing. They quoted Braukaiser (not sure if they just googled zinc and brewing) and suggested I needed zinc vitamin suppliment? They gave me this link http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2012/06/22/the-effect-of-zinc-on-fermentation-performance/ which at the very end states

"It is possible that the zinc had no effect and that the yeast sediment weight differences are the result of a random error. On the left is a picture of the ingredients label. Zinc is present in these caplets as Zinc Gluconate which may not readily release Zn2+ into the wort. The use of zinc chloride would have been more reliable, but I didn’t have that at hand. Maybe for a later experiment I get ZnCl2."

Just goes to show that some people don't know their product or don't bother reading the advise they are giving out.


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## MHB

I know Steve (Brewman) has some (I saw a bucket of it there recently), I'm sure if you contact him he will be able to help you out. I'll give him a nudge to put it on if he doesn't see this.
Just be very careful when measuring it out too much is very toxic to yeast, it is a vital enzyme cofactor for many of the reactions in brewing from mashing on through. I know most good yeast nutrients contain Zn, but most people ass that later in the boil, which doesn't help with the mash enzymes, nor some of the processes in the early part of the boil. Its one of those chemicals where I would be tempted to make a stock solution if I didn't have scales good to 0.01g.

Please understand that its not a magic bullet but its an important consideration and probably more important if using Australian malt. That said Kunze talks about ways to get more Zn into the wort within the confines of the Reinheitsgebot - so it is possibly a matter of concern even with much higher Zn German malt.

Another very important role for Zn in brewing is the effect on head, at levels that would kill the yeast in the fermenter - but that's a different conversation perhaps better in its own thread.
Mark


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## Jack of all biers

Cheers Mark. Yeah I was thinking of making a stock solution as per the thread I linked above. So I don't take this thread even further off topic I'll PM you.


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## wobbly

Black n Tan said:


> If you are not hitting your target mash pH, then why not just add more acidulated malt next time. I see some people that write a recipe that uses both acidulated malt and some acid, for reasons I am not sure. Of course if you measure your mash pH and it is a little high then you can always add some acid, but why formulate a recipe that includes both acidulated malt and lactic acid? Why not keeps things simple and use one or the other? But to directly answer you question, I would add before dough in so that the grain is not hit by a wave of acidity that may happen if you add after dough in.


In formulating a beer Recipe I tend to follow the KISS principle put forward by AJ deLange in this article http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460 and add about 2% acid malt to the grain bill. Adding further acid malt (Lactic Acid) to bring the pH of my typical Pale Ale recipe using my water would require about 6% acid malt in the mash according to Bru'n water which could/would boarder on taste threshold. OK in a some beers styles but not to my liking in most of my beers. 
To adjust the mash pH to around 5.3 I use 2% acid malt and then further adjust with 85% *Phosphoric Acid *as required which can be around 3mils in a total mash volume of 32lts for a batch size of 25lts into the fermenter (I sparge with a further 6lts of treated water to get the pre boil volume) 
If I revisit my initial question on when to add the acid I guess as MHB states if I'm confident with the results of Bru'n water then adding it to the mash water after adding the brewing salts (typically Gypsum and Calcium Chloride) would have the same effect as increasing the Acid Malt percentage in the grain bill. So adding say 75/80% of the indicated *Phosphoric Acid* (keeping some in reserve to fine tune the pH after about 10/15 mins recirculating in the BM) prior to Dough-In would appear to be an acceptable way to go knowing and understanding that the pH of the mash water prior to Dough-In will be quite low (mid/high 4's??) as a result of not yet having the buffering effect of the grain on the mash water volume.

I guess this leads me to another point. 

If my mash water after salt and acid addition and prior to Dough-In is in the mid/high 4's will the mash pH rise to the predicted level once the grain is added?
Maybe I am chasing something that doesn't have a significant impact on the brew anyway and hence my reasoning for seeking comment form others

Cheers

Wobbly


----------



## Black n Tan

wobbly said:


> I guess this leads me to another point.
> 
> If my mash water after salt and acid addition and prior to Dough-In is in the mid/high 4's will the mash pH rise to the predicted level once the grain is added?
> Maybe I am chasing something that doesn't have a significant impact on the brew anyway and hence my reasoning for seeking comment form others
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Wobbly


Now I understand why you use both and that makes perfect sense given your water and the taste threshold for lactic acid. Regarding your other questions, water pH is a poor predictor of mash pH, so measuring the water ph after adjustment will not tell you what the mash pH will be. I normally use acidulated malt but I had to make a SMASH beer for a comp so had to use lactic acid. I worked out how much I would need and used a little less to be safe and then measured the water pH and it was 3.5 or some such, which seemed really low and worried me. I checked my calculations using a coupe of different methods and all looked in order so i went with it. Mash pH ended up being 5.2. Your water pH may be well different to this but still give you 5.2 in the mash.


----------



## wobbly

Black n Tan said:


> I worked out how much I would need and used a little less to be safe and then measured the water pH and it was 3.5 or some such, which seemed really low and worried me. I checked my calculations using a coupe of different methods and all looked in order so i went with it. Mash pH ended up being 5.2. Your water pH may be well different to this but still give you 5.2 in the mash.


I'm encouraged by your results/comments and will give adding about 80% of the calculated the Phosphoric Acid to the mash water prior to Dough-In next brew

The reason for going down this like of inquiry is that it can take 10 to 15 minutes for the mash to become stable after adding Acid post Dough-In with the recirculating Braumeister system and if you have to do it a couple of times it can be up to half an hour post Dough-In before you hit on the target mash pH and my concern is that the conversion will/may be compromised by this lag 

As stated above maybe this "delay" doesn't matter in the whole scheme of things but it is something I would like to avoid if I can

Cheers

Wobbly


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## MHB

Wobbly
Do me a favor, make up a CaCl2 solution in a clear glass, add some of your phosphoric acid and tell me what happens.
Cheers Mark


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## GalBrew

wobbly said:


> I'm encouraged by your results/comments and will give adding about 80% of the calculated the Phosphoric Acid to the mash water prior to Dough-In next brew
> 
> The reason for going down this like of inquiry is that it can take 10 to 15 minutes for the mash to become stable after adding Acid post Dough-In with the recirculating Braumeister system and if you have to do it a couple of times it can be up to half an hour post Dough-In before you hit on the target mash pH and my concern is that the conversion will/may be compromised by this lag
> 
> As stated above maybe this "delay" doesn't matter in the whole scheme of things but it is something I would like to avoid if I can
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Wobbly


I have never used a BM so this might be a silly idea, but can't you give your mash a good stir rather than wait for the recirculation to even your mash pH after salt/acid additions?


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## btrots87

I think what MHB is getting at is that most phosphate salts aren't soluble in water. If you use phosphoric acid to acidify your mash you will end up precipitating a lot of your calcium and probably magnesium out of solution which you don't want.

For this reason I would use a different acid.


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## MHB

I would have preferred he saw it happen rather than just be told - nothing teaches like doing.

M


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## timmi9191

Phosphoric acid us typically a solution not a salt. Precipitation of calcium isn't a spontaneous reaction. Phosphoric acid is a great acid to use, particularly if you are using acidulated malt and don't want to push the lacto flavour threshold.


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## wobbly

MHB said:


> Wobbly
> Do me a favor, make up a CaCl2 solution in a clear glass, add some of your phosphoric acid and tell me what happens.
> Cheers Mark



This is what Martin Bruingard has to say about Lactic and Phosphate Acid when used in brewing water

_Lactic Acid is readily available for brewing use, but it can produce a distinctive “tang” in the flavor profile at high concentration. Phosphoric Acid can also be used and it has little flavor effect since this acid is similar to the malt acids produced through mashing. Phosphoric acid does not cause excessive precipitation of calcium in the mash and can be used freely in brewing. Hydrochloric and Sulfuric acids are strong acids that also contribute chloride or sulfate ions, respectively. _

From what I have read he is up there with the experts such as AJ deLange and John Palmer when it comes to brewing water treatments (he along with AJ deLange reviewd and assisted in writing the introduction to Palmer's book on water) so based on what he has to say I will continue to use Phosphoric Acid for now.

I'm not trying to be a smart arse here just being guided by someone with a lot more knowledge on the subject than I currently have and I'm happy to take on board information/recommendations from more experienced brewers/water chemists than I currently have

Cheers

Wobbly


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## wobbly

GalBrew said:


> I have never used a BM so this might be a silly idea, but can't you give your mash a good stir rather than wait for the recirculation to even your mash pH after salt/acid additions?


You can/could but like a lot of other BM users I have now adopted a no sparge/flooded/full volume malt pipe mash where in my 20lt unit you Dough-In with the standard 25lt and then place your top screen and hold down bar in place and then add a further amount of mash water probably 10lts which results in the mash/malt pipe hold down bar being submerged under the hot mash liquid so to remove the top screen and stir the mash you need to draw off 10/12 lt of mash liquid remove the hold down bar and top screen stir the mash replace the top screen and hold down bar and then add back the mash liquid you drew off

Doable but all just gets a but messy 

Thanks for your thoughts/comments anyway

Cheers

Wobbly


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## MHB

I don't know the answer - hence the suggestion that you try it and let us know what happens.
I use lactic acid for a number of reasons and don't find any negative flavour issues. I have also read that Phosphates react with Calcium salts to remove both from the water, I have also noted that most brewing texts recommend Lactic, Sulphuric and Hydrochloric acids even providing equations and/or tables to tell you how much to use to achieve desired pH adjustments. But I haven't seen any such for Phosphoric Acid.

As a favor put a teaspoon of CaCl2 in a glass, ad some phosphoric and see what happens, If nothing then fine no problem, if it forms a cloud and precipitates then we all have something to think about. I would do it myself but don't have any phosphoric acid to hand.
Mark


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## timmi9191

Palmers "water" provides said equations etc re phosphoric acid


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## wobbly

MHB said:


> I have also noted that most brewing texts recommend Lactic, Sulphuric and Hydrochloric acids even providing equations and/or tables to tell you how much to use to achieve desired pH adjustments. But I haven't seen any such for Phosphoric Acid.
> 
> As a favor put a teaspoon of CaCl2 in a glass, ad some phosphoric and see what happens, If nothing then fine no problem, if it forms a cloud and precipitates then we all have something to think about. I would do it myself but don't have any phosphoric acid to hand.
> Mark


On the first part of your post the following is taken from Brukaser's paper part 3 on mashing where he lists Phosphoric Acid amounts.





As to the other question about adding a teaspoon of CaCl2 to a glass of water this would in my view be totally unrepresentative for the following reason

1 teaspoon is approx 5 grams and a glass of water is approx 250mls therefore adding 5grams to 250 mils would equate to 20g per lt or about 4600ppm of calcium and then adding some Phosphoric Acid (drops/mils??) is likely to produce *some sort of result that you would not see in a realistic brew schedule*
Maybe I am miss understanding what you are suggesting but I can't see how it would be representative of what the impact of 3 or so mls of Phosphoric Acid in a mash of 5.5 kg of grain in 32lt of mash water would be

Again not trying to take the piss just trying to better understand water treatment

Cheers

Wobbly


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## MHB

Fair Cop
I should have said professional brewing texts, where what I said stands, Braukaiser is a pretty respectable source and Water isn't at all bad so odds on they are right.


> As to the other question about adding a teaspoon of CaCl2 to a glass of water this would in my view be totally unrepresentative for the following reason
> 1 teaspoon is approx 5 grams and a glass of water is approx 250mls therefore adding 5grams to 250 mils would equate to 20g per lt or about 4600ppm of calcium and then adding some Phosphoric Acid (drops/mils??) is likely to produce *some sort of result that you would not see in a realistic brew schedule*
> Maybe I am miss understanding what you are suggesting but I can't see how it would be representative of what the impact of 3 or so mls of Phosphoric Acid in a mash of 5.5 kg of grain in 32lt of mash water would be


The chemistry would be the same, more dilute sure but the same reactions would/could take place just perhaps not as visibly. We all know that a very small (3mL in 32L) makes a pretty big and easily measured/tasted difference - or we wouldn't be doing it, the suggestion was purely to see if relatively insoluble Calcium Phosphate is formed, if it is it matters, if not then no problem.

Believe me I am still working my through some of the concepts behind water chemistry and am far from thinking I have all the answers.
No problem with add required amounts of this or that to achieve desired results, still a way to go on the why and how it works.
mark


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## wobbly

I assume your concerns with using Phosphoric Acid for pH adjustment of the mash is/has something to do with the possibility of it precipitating calcium out of the mash 

Martin Bruingard on the American Home Brewing Association Forum had this to say on the subject of precipitating calcium in the mash because of using Phosphoric Acid to adjust mash pH 

_Phosphoric acid is perfectly fine for pH adjustment. There is a myth circulating that adding phosphoric acid causes more calcium precipitation in the mash. Since wort typically contains on the order of 1% (which is 10,000 ppm) phosphatic compounds, adding a 100 ppm of orthophosphate ions to the mash is not going to appreciably change the amount of precipitation of calcium in the mash. _

So it would appear that your concerns may not be founded 

Wobbly


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## MHB

Agreed, like I said it isn't discussed in professional brewing literature and I have heard concerns about it precipitating Ca.
Maybe the cost of Phosphoric is the main issue, it is way more expensive than hydrochloric or sulphuric.
That 1% phosphatic compounds sounds very high - will have to look at that, and will get some Phosphoric acid and see how it reacts.
Mark


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## wobbly

Not sure about the cost but maybe using either Hydrochloric or Sulphuric is because they will contribute Chloride or Sulphate ions respectively to the mash and therefore not require the use of so much Gypsum or Calcium Chloride

Grain and Grape list 250ml bottles of 88% Lactic Acid for $9.90 and 250ml botles of 85% Phosphoric Acid at $8.00 and I understand that this costs may not be representative of what the cost could/would be on a commercial scale or how there compare with with the cost of Hyrdochloric and Sulphuric 

Wobbly


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## MHB

My local has 500mL of 80% Lactic (in a lined chemical/poison bottle with a child proof cap - both cost extra) for $12.95 which looks like a pretty good deal.
I doubt that anyone would choose the acid on that basis, as you are looking for a balance of Ca, Mg, Cl and SO4, which is one of the reasons I use Lactic (and I suppose the same applies to Phosphoric), it doesn't change the Cl/SO4 balance at all, just the pH and adds a little more of something that is already there in fairly large amounts. Reportedly about 90% of the acidity in a mash comes from naturally occurring bacterial lactic acid, from what you reported there is even more phosphates there than lactic.
Industrial sized quantities of Hydro Chloric and Sulphuric Acids are very much cheaper than either Lactic or Phosphoric - I have costed them in 20-25L size quantities - and its like a quarter of the price.
Mark


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## wobbly

Whist this is all very interesting stuff it is starting to go off topic from my original inquiry which was "When to add acid to the mash for pH control" 

In Gordon Strong's book Brewing Better Beers and this article by AJ deLange http://www.wetnewf.org/pdfs/alkalinity-reduction-with.html they both talk about the procedure adopted by Serra Nevada Brewing where they adjust all of their  *brewery water* to a pH of 5.5 by using Phosphoric Acid. Their raw water is reported to be 76ppm Alkalinity and 25ppm Calcium which is just about right on for my potable/tap water.

Now I am still trying to get my head around all the subtilety of mash pH control but does this indicate that in their case they don't need to undertake further mash pH adjustments once the grain is added?

Is there some fundamental point I am missing in this?

Wobbly


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## timmi9191

Adjustments to water are not just about the mash ph. Sulphate levels, sulphate to chloride ratio, the levels of various ions all play a part in the final flavour profile of what you are trying to produce. 

I think you might be expecting an answer that 1+1=2 therefore that is what you will always do. There are so many variables that there is no one simple answer. Do your research, read books on the topics (which you appear to be doing) and put the theory into practice. Experiment a little, use salt and no acids, use acids and no salts, see what you like best.

As a result of research and practice, I create a wAter profile particular to the style I'm brewing and use acidulated malt to adjust ph. I then use phosphoric acid to acidify the sparge water. Is that a perfect process, probably not, but it's improved my beers and efficiency.


----------



## wobbly

Thanks for that 

I have briefly read part of the Water Book and a lot of what AJ deLange and M Bruingard have to say on brewing water, both mash and sparge, and have what I consider at best a basic understanding of the theory of how variations in CaCl2, CaSo4 and MgSo4 and CaCl2/Caso4 ratio will impact on the final beer. I also understand the process of using Acid (Pos, Lactic, Sulphuric, Hydrochloric etc) to reduce Alkalinity in the mash and the importance of doing that

My thirst for information was when to best add the acid to the mash liquid and was any point more beneficial than another.

As I said in an earlier post maybe it doesn't make any difference as long as you end up with the mash at your targeted pH

Wobbly


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## timmi9191

Make adjustments based on predictions using a tool like bru'n prior to dow in.

Test mash ph about 15 mins after dow in using a calibrated ph meter, preferably accurate to 2 decimal places. Ensure the sample of wort is cooled to 25 degrees. Use acid to adjust mash ph if necessary at that time.


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## manticle

Wobbly - add at the beginning and adjust if necessary 10-15 mins in.
As far as I understand, the mash buffers itself against pH change quite quickly and appropriate pH is important for enzymatic function so earliest is best.
Beyond that, don't stress too much unless your beers are shit or you have access to HPLC.


----------



## wobbly

Don't have any access to "High Performance Liquid Chromatography" equipment so for my next brew I will add some Phosphoric Acid prior to Dough-In to achieve a mash liquid pH of 5.5 (as Serra Nevada does) and then Dough-In with my typical grain bill and check after 15 mins and see what if any further adjustment is required

Not stressing just following a "Rabbit Down a Burrow" out of personal interest/education/knowledge

Wobbly


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## Black n Tan

wobbly said:


> so for my next brew I will add some Phosphoric Acid prior to Dough-In to achieve a mash liquid pH of 5.5 (as Serra Nevada does) and then Dough-In with my typical grain bill and check after 15 mins and see what if any further adjustment is required
> 
> Wobbly


Wobbly I and many have said this before that water pH is a poor predictor of mash pH, but I am not sure you have yet to appreciate this. Sierra Nevada have a certain water profile and know that if they adjust the water to pH x it will translate to a mash pH y given a certain grain bill and salt additions. You have different water so don't expect that getting your water to pH5.5 will magically result in a mash pH of 5.2. As I said earlier when I used straight lactic acid in my water the pH measured 3.5 (may be even less, but can't remember exactly) and my mash pH hit 5.2. If I had target a water pH of 5.5, my mash pH would have been much higher. You need to understand the residual alkalinity of your water which can't be measured by the pH of water.


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## wobbly

Thanks for your further input/comments

The SN practice of adjusting all the water that comes into the brewery to pH 5.5 from what I have read is for a number of reasons

Corrosion control - Boilers - Pipes etc
Water discharge requirements to meet certain environmental requirements
Sparge water and
Something to do with Mash liquid 
Nothing I have read/researched indicates what else SN do with the pH 5.5 water being used in the mash. They may use a high percentage of Acid Malt in the grain bill or they may use more Phosphoric Acid to trim the mash after Dough-In. I don't know and have been unable to find out and not that it is important just interesting 
I understand that adjusting my mash water to say pH 5.5 prior to Dough-In may/will not result in my mash being at target say pH 5.2 - 5.3
I understand what you experienced with your water by adding however much Lactic Acid you added prior to Dough-In and from what I understand Melbourne water generally is very soft where as mine according to Bru'n has a calculated residual alkalinity of 53 which will have to be treated and if you consider what AJ deLange had to say in the above reference if you adjust your brew water to pH 5.5 then no further adjustment should be necessary to counter the remaining small amount of residual alkalinity as indicated in the following copied from that reference 

I acknowledge that the example here is for a starting alkalinity of 76ppm where as mine is less than that at 53 so may not require as much Phos acid but I interpret the the outcome to be very similar - Maybe I am missing the boat totally and my next brew will/should set me straight on the matter.

*Example*
It has been reported that Sierra Nevada, consistent with the idea given here, treats all it's water to pH 5.5 with phosphoric acid. Chico water has average alkalinity of 76 ppm as calcium carbonate and pH which can be as low as 6.5 or as high as 7.9. Calcium content is 25 mg/L.

The chart below indicates what the effects of this may be. The curves plot the alkalinity that remains when water with alkalinity of 100 ppm as CaCO3 and pH as given on the horizontal axis is treated with acid until the pH reaches the value which corresponds to the particular curve as indicated in the legend. Solid curves with open symbols represent treatment with phosphoric acid and curves just below them in the same color represent sulfuric acid (or any other strong acid though the calculations were done for sulfuric - note that lactic acid could be considered strong in this application). Let's assume that SN measures pH of 7.2 (right in the middle of the range) on a given brew day and wants to acidify to pH 5.5 with a strong acid (sulfuric, hydrochloric, lactic or a blend of these). The 5.5 pH curves are red. The thin solid curve is the strong acid curve. Entering the chart on the bottom axis at pH 7.2 and reading up we see that were the alkalinity 100 the alkalinity remaining would be about 15 and conclude from this that the amount of alkalinity remaining for an actual alkalinity of 76 would be 15% of 76 or 11.4 ppm as CaCO3.








If mashing at pH 5.5 the alkalinity of the water has been satisfactorily dealt with. No additional acid will be needed to overcome the remaining alkalinity. Remember that alkalinity is measured by titrating to an end point pH of 4.5 or so. Were we to titrate from 5.5 to 4.5 we would indeed need extra acid in amount equal to 11.4/50 mEq/L.

So based on this example the remaining alkalinity in my brew water which started at 53 would now be something like 15% of 53 which equals about 8 and therefore not something to have to worry about

Cheers

Wobbly


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## timmi9191

Can you list your water report, the grain bill and your mash and sparge water volumes.

Oh, and the style of beer you are brewing


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## wobbly

The information I have on the potable water is a report from the supply authority which is based on "their words" a range of analysis results for the past two years and the mean of the results are what I use.
Alkalinity as CaCo3 77, Calcium 25, Chloride165, Magnesium 5.5, Potassium 3.8, Sodium 105, Sulphate 23 pH 8.0 I dilute this with around 80% rain water to "even out the averages" which in Bru'n I assume is the same as RO water as it will still have some salts etc.
Brewing Salts 3.8g Gypsum, 4.5g Calcium Chloride. Bru'n Water prediction in ppm - Calcium 60, Mgo 0.5, Sodium 15, Sulphate 64, Chloride 75, So4/Cl ratio 0.8
Grain Bill for a typical Pale Ale 4kg BB Ale Malt, 1kg Wyermann Munich1, 300g BB Wheat, 250g Carapils, 100g Acid Malt
I brew full volume mash no sparge so water volume is 38lt and check mash pH about 10/15 mins after Dough-In and currently then add Phosphoric Acid (generally about 1.5 to 2 mls) as required to get to target mash pH 
Bru'n Water predicts a mash pH of 5.34 with the addition of 1.8mls of 85% Phosphoric Acid (which is a bit high) which I check with a calibrate pH meter

My line of inquiry isn't about being able to understand how and when to add brewing salts and/or how obtain the target mash pH but is there a difference in the mash pH depending on when you add the Acid 

As stated above AJ deLange "Implies" that SN adjust there water to 5.5 prior to Dough-In and is silent on if any further acid adjustment is undertaken similarly Gordon Strong in his book Brewing Better Beers also follows a similar procedure eg on page 150 he states he uses RO water and treats his mash water with Phosphoric Acid to achieve a pH around 5.5 and then adds his brewing salts. He then checks his mash pH and sometimes adds salts to the boil. Again he is silent on when he adds the grain

I understand Alkalinity (and RA) are strong buffers and can have significant impact on how much Acid is required to move/lower the mash pH - The higher the alkalinity the greater the amount of acid require to achieve a particular mash pH. So if your mash water has low/very low alkalinity and associated pH of around 5.5 does it follow that it will not be necessary to further acid post Dough-In depending on the slat additions of course

Cheers

Wobbly


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## timmi9191

Firstly a mash Ph of 5.34 at 25 degrees isnt too high, its well within an ideal range.

Next, I have used your water report and grain bill. I assume when you say full batch you are aiming for a final volume of 23 litres.

Aiming for a pale ale water profile as suggested by BrU'n (granted it doesnt hit the targets exactly but its pretty close) I would be adding:
Gypsum (CaSO4) 16.7g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) 5.7g Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) 1.5g

This gives a predicted mash Ph of 5.4. No acidification should be required.

I would add the salts pre dough in. Check Ph 15 mins later. Then add acid if necessary, but it is unlikely.

As B/T and others have advised you, do not focus on pre mash Ph. I know its quoted that is what S.N do, but I am sure they know conclusively what their water and malt compositions are and know the resultant mash Ph and water chemistry inside out. Having said that I serious doubt they would treat all their water the same, ie acidifiying water for a stout in the same way does not compute.

To answer your question (which I believe is counter intuitive as your focus should just be on the mash ph) from my knowledge, it would not make a difference but *may *effect the rate at which the mash Ph establishes and stabilizes and some of the initial conversations.


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## Black n Tan

wobbly said:


> I understand Alkalinity (and RA) are strong buffers and can have significant impact on how much Acid is required to move/lower the mash pH - The higher the alkalinity the greater the amount of acid require to achieve a particular mash pH. So if your mash water has low/very low alkalinity and associated pH of around 5.5 does it follow that it will not be necessary to further acid post Dough-In depending on the slat additions of course
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Wobbly


I suspect both the examples you have given used RO water and as such alkalinity was effectively 0, so the water would contain effectively no buffering power. I would think they would still use some acid and salts to get the mash pH right, especially for a lighter grist (no crystal or roast). In my situation my water alkalinity is 12 and my RA is 8 (this is prior to adjustment, but is similar to what you get after adjustment), but i still needed to add significant acid to get the mash pH to 5.2 (8mL 88% lactic acid for 55L) which resulted in water pH of mid 3's. So I don't think adjusting the water pH to 5.5 will give you a mash pH of 5.2, without further additions of acid, but hey there is only one way to be sure.


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## wobbly

timmi9191 said:


> Firstly a mash Ph of 5.34 at 25 degrees isnt too high, its well within an ideal range. *Never said/indicated that it wasn't and no offence meant*
> 
> Aiming for a* pale ale water profile *as suggested by BrU'n (granted it doesnt hit the targets exactly but its pretty close) I would be adding:
> Gypsum (CaSO4) 16.7g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) 5.7g Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) 1.5g* I don't use the Pale Ale profile instead prefer the Yellow Balanced or Full profiles (personal choice)*
> 
> This gives a predicted mash Ph of 5.4. No acidification should be required.
> 
> I would add the salts pre dough in. Check Ph 15 mins later. Then add acid if necessary, but it is unlikely.
> 
> As B/T and others have advised you, do not focus on pre mash Ph. I know its quoted that is what S.N do, but I am sure they know conclusively what their water and malt compositions are and know the resultant mash Ph and water chemistry inside out. Having said that I serious doubt they would treat all their water the same, ie acidifiying water for a stout in the same way does not compute.
> 
> To answer your question (which I believe is counter intuitive as your focus should just be on the mash ph)* and it is * from my knowledge, it would not make a difference but *may *effect the rate at which the mash Ph establishes and stabilizes and some of the initial conversations. *which is the basis of my inquiries/questions*





Black n Tan said:


> I suspect both the examples you have given used RO water *the Gordon Strong reference did and the AJ deLange reference wasn't as I understand anything more than a theoretical interpretation but SN water is quoted as comming from the surrounding hills/mountains *and as such alkalinity was effectively 0, so the water would contain effectively no buffering power. I would think they would still use some acid and salts to get the mash pH right,* yes they appear to do so but prior to Dough-In *especially for a lighter grist (no crystal or roast). In my situation my water alkalinity is 12 and my RA is 8 (this is prior to adjustment, but is similar to what you get after adjustment), but i still needed to add significant acid to get the mash pH to 5.2 (8mL 88% lactic acid for 55L) which resulted in water pH of mid 3's. So I don't think adjusting the water pH to 5.5 will give you a mash pH of 5.2, *not suggesting it will get this low I just don't know *without further additions of acid, but hey there is only one way to be sure.*yep and thats what I intend to do the next brew using basically that same water mix (potable and rain) and grain bill as detailed in my post number 78*



All of this may well end up being a fruitless exercise but a couple of respected water chemists and/or brewers have started me thinking that maybe what they are talking about/doing just might be a better (different??) way forward.

Hey had the "All in One Brewery" discussion not happened back in 2011 who knows if BIAB would have ever eventuated

Cheers

Wobbly


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## timmi9191

wobbly said:


> Bru'n Water predicts a mash pH of 5.34 with the addition of 1.8mls of 85% Phosphoric Acid (which is a bit high) which I check with a calibrate pH meter


If youre not referring to the mash ph, what are you saying is too high


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## wobbly

timmi9191 said:


> If youre not referring to the mash ph, what are you saying is too high


Should have made myself a bit clearer.

I generally find that Bru'n Water predicted Acid additions (mils) are "a bit high" (too big) and this is most likely due to my water profile on any given day being different due to the amount oif desalinated water in the mix that day (it can change from week to week and not just seaonally as with some places) so I usually add only about 75% of the recommended amount to start with holding some back in case I need to add a bit more. For my softer beers (my taste preference) I generally target a mash pH about 5.25 and I acknowledge that 5.34 at 25C being only about 0.09pH higher is no big deal

Cheers

Wobbly


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## mabrungard

The concerns with phosphate stripping out calcium from brewing water are overblown. For this precipitation reaction to occur, the calcium concentration in the water needs to be pretty high to start with. Under that condition, losing some calcium is not a concern. In fact, the malt provides all the calcium into the wort that the yeast need for their metabolism. There is NO need for calcium in your brewing water in order for the yeast to properly metabolize the wort into beer. The only reasons to add calcium to your brewing water is for: adding flavor ions such as Cl and SO4, removing oxalate from the wort, and helping the yeast to flocculate quickly. Yeast performance can actually be degraded if the calcium content is too high. Lager yeasts are particularly sensitive to elevated Ca content in the water. 

The question of adding zinc to the wort was also posed. A better option for adding zinc is Zinc Sulfate Heptahyrdrate. That form is better than zinc chloride since it doesn't absorb water from the air. It is readily available in capsule form from vitamin and nutrition stores. The amount to add is exceedingly small. The proper dose is: 1 gram per 310 gallons (US) for ales and 1 gram per 620 gallons (US) for lagers. Those values come directly from an Anheuser Busch brewer that I respect and that resulting concentration agrees with brewing text recommendations. Of course, using a commercial yeast nutrient my be an easier option. PS: If you are brewing with RO water, there is virtually no zinc in that water and you do need to add some for the yeast's benefit. Typical tap water has enough zinc in it. Don't add zinc unless you're reasonably sure your wort needs it, since zinc can taste bad at even low levels.


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## MHB

The doses of Zn you are talking about are 4-8 times what Kunze recommends 0.1-0.15mg/L
Australia is uniquely low in available zinc, water can quite commonly be around the 0.05ppm or lower, this also means that the Barley grown here and malt made from it is also very low in Zn. Agreed its not something that is going to make a huge difference to most brewers but it is worth being aware of.
I love the line "Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore." Sometimes different climes require different answers.
Mark


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## Thefatdoghead

I use filtered town water form SEQ. I now use bru n water and follow the instructions to add all additions to the brewing liquer. 
I use the 50L brau and ss kettle at the same time. Ill have 75L in the ss kettle and 55 in the brau.
I make 2 seperate spread sheets for the two vessel volumes and add sepperate amaount to kettle and brau.
I use lactic acid 88% in both vessels then I add my salts. This all happens the night before brewing.
PH before additions is 7.01
PH after all additions is 3.24

Mash Ph depending on grain bill was 5.33 to 5.23 (I add acid after mashing for 20 min and check again if not low enough.)

Im getting great efficiency so i have decided not to sparge which makes life easier. Im not worried about a couple of kg of grain.
My ferments have been pumping away nicely so im pretty stoked with the system.

Why the brewing liquer is 3.23 PH to start I dont know but more reading needed of the water book.



wobbly said:


> Hi Cervantes
> 
> I'm at loss as for the pH to drop so dramatically you would think it would be associated with there being virtually no buffering (bicarbonate or carbonate) in the water. I have set both of these values to zero and still get a requirement to add around 2.28mls of Phos Acid. What I don't understand is that when I add that amount of Phos Acid for the grain bill as per post my post #14 the resultant pH of the mash water prior to adding the grains is in the mid 3's measure at room temperature
> 
> In your post above you are adding a "few ml" of lactic acid without issue.
> 
> In post #8 you indicated that you add your minerals and lactic acid to you brew water* before mashing in*. Have you checked the pH of the brew water before you have added the grains and if so what is it?
> 
> Maybe I'm stressing over nothing and that if/when I add the grains the mash will sort it self out.
> 
> Maybe this is a light bulb moment!!!!
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Wobbly





wobbly said:


> OK can someone (anyone) offer me an explanation/advise.
> 
> Note I brew with a 20lt Braumeister
> 
> I am new to "Soft water" (rain water) brewing and water adjustments for both pH and salts.
> 
> I have a reliable pH meter that reads to two decimal places and is calibration checked before each brew
> 
> My tap water is high in Chlorides (165ppm+/-) Sodium (105ppm+/-) Lowish in Sulphate (20ppm+/-) Lowish in Calcium (25ppm+/-) Alkalinity (77ppm+/-) Hardness (90ppm +/-)
> These figures are from the water authority and are the annual "Mean" so could be lower/higher month to month. I haven't had the water specifically tested
> 
> To reduce the Sodium and Chloride levels back to lower levels I have diluted with 90% rain water (assumed virtual blank canvas) for a total brew day water (mash and sparge) of 38lts.
> 
> For a grain bill of 3.5kg Ale malt (5.6 EBC) 600g Munich (14 EBC) 300g Wheat (3.5 EBC) 250g Carapils (3.9 EBC) 100g Acid Malt (3.5 EBC) Bru'n Water for a particular water profile indicates to add 5.6g Gypsum, 3.5g Calcium Chloride and 2.28 mls of 85% phosphoric acid to achieve a pH of 5.32 (EZ Water indicates similar figuares)
> 
> I added the salts to the brew water (not acid yet) and dough in and wait 10/15 mins and take a sample cool to 20C and and pH indicates 5.28?
> 
> After a further 10/15 mins I take another sample cool to 20C and the pH now reads 5.36. Added 0.5mls of 85% Phos Acid waited 10/15 mins and took sample cooled to 20C and pH now 5.28
> 
> What I am struggling with/to understand is:-
> 
> 1) Why is the initial pH reading after 10/15 mins (5.28) lower than subsequent reading (5.36)?
> 2) Why are both Bru'n and EZ Water indicating to add up to 4 times the amount of 85% Phos Acid as physical sampling/testing indicates. Is it that my water mix has virtually no buffering capacity (low/zero Alkalinity)
> 
> Today's brew is the second I have done with my "Rain Water" mix and the above grain bill and on both occasions the results/trend has been the same ie. Initial pH reading low and only requiring to use a lot less Phos acid than indicated by the software.
> 
> Any advise/comments would be appreciated
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Wobbly


Do remember reading in 'Water' book that salt additions can take a while to dilute and start affecting PH etc. This may be part of the reason?


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## Jack of all biers

Adding acids is like any other addition. Everything you add has a benefit and a consequence. The consequence of lactic acid is that it has a taste threshold that can be over stepped, The consequence of hydrochloric or sulphuric acids is the addition of chloride and sulphate compounds which also have a taste consequence (some good and some not so good - too much sulphur in a beer would not be good). The consequence of phosphoric acid is that it may precipitate out some calcium in the mash. I figure that with the addtions of calcium (chloride/sulphate/carbonate) as well as the presence of a fair bit in the water (unless you use RO or very soft water) and grains, then this minor precipitation would be the lesser of the consequences for many. I believe that is why it is so widely used (especially in the states). I think the lactic acid fits for the German way of thinking (as long as it is lactic acid produced from die Gersten [barley]) because it fits nicely into the purity laws.

My OPINION (cause that's all it is) to the OP is that I'd figure out how much acid you need for your brews by testing the pH on brews you make, then calculate how much you would need to correct that. That first batch for each recipe would then need the acid added post mixture of grist to liquor, but everytime you brew after that you can add the calculated acid to the liquor (holding a bit back as suggested) before adding the grist. As has been stated here already, this would ensure that the desired pH is achieved quicker rather than adding it after mixing the grist (seems a logical argument to me anyway).



mabrungard said:


> The question of adding zinc to the wort was also posed. A better option for adding zinc is Zinc Sulfate Heptahyrdrate. That form is better than zinc chloride since it doesn't absorb water from the air. It is readily available in capsule form from vitamin and nutrition stores.


 It's interesting you prefer Zinc Sulfate Heptahydrate as others have recommended Zinc Chloride as the better of the two. From Zie Germans: _"__In order to prevent fermentation defects, the zinc content of wort must be monitored and adjusted, if to low. This can be easily done in countries outside Germany by addition of zinc-salts, such as zinc-chloride, zinc-sulphate or zinc-asparate. Although all these salts are used, trials have shown that zinc-chloride seems to be most appropriate with no negative effects in case of overdosing"_ - [SIZE=11pt]B. Mändle, K.-U. Heyse, A Piendl,[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] Über die Auswirkungen einer Zugabe von Zinksalzen zur Würze auf die Gärung,[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] Proc. EBC, 483-494.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]I understand the absorbtion of water by zinc chloride being more likely, but the above study makes a strong argument for the use of zinc chloride, concluding that it is the most appropriate in case one accidently adds too much it won't cause problems. (not sure if they are talking about problems for yeast or for humans consuming it :icon_vomit: ).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Found in Vitamin/nutrition capsules - do you have any brands you can nominate? not sure they would be here in Australia, but worth knowing just in case.[/SIZE]




MHB said:


> [SIZE=11pt]*The doses of Zn you are talking about are 4-8 times what Kunze recommends 0.1-0.15mg/L*[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=11pt]*Australia is uniquely low in available zinc, water can quite commonly be around the 0.05ppm or lower, this also means that the Barley grown here and malt made from it is also very low in Zn. Agreed its not something that is going to make a huge difference to most brewers but it is worth being aware of.*[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=11pt]*I love the line "Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore." Sometimes different climes require different answers.*[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=11pt]*Mark*[/SIZE]


[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]It's not just Kunze that recommends 1.5 gm/L, but this German mob also recommend it as the *minimum* (so doesn't necessarily negate what Martin said either);[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]_"Healthy yeast does have a zinc content of 6-13 mg/100 g (d.m.). To provide the yeast with sufficient zinc to uphold these values, the recommended zinc content in the wort should be above 0.15 mg/l. When pressure is applied during fermentation, a minimum content of 0.08 mg/l can be sufficient due to reduced yeast growth"_ - [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]D. Wagner, E. Geiger, W. Birk - [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Der Zink und Mangangehalt der Hefe in Abhängigkeit von bestimmten gärungstechnologischen Faktoren [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Proc. EBC London 1983, 473.480[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Palmer recommends _"For best performance, zinc levels should be between 0.1-0.3 mg/l, with 0.5 mg/l being maximum." - _J. Palmer - How to Brew, Chapter 6.9.1, Online Book.[/SIZE]


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## rude

How do you test for zinc


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## MHB

ICP, AAS - not the sort of thing you do at home. Most other methods would not be accurate enough at the type of concentrations we are working with.
About the best we can do is look at our water reports and make an educated guess, most show Zn content if they don't contact your local water authority and ask.
Mark


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## rude

Phew thats a relief thought I might be up for another $100 plus for a zinc meter


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## MHB

I doubt $100 would buy the light bulb for a AAS (more properly a hollow cathode lamp), there is a type of meter that might work called an Ion Selective Electrode meter, similar to a pH meter but it measures various Ions according to the type of probe you plug into it.
Some high end pH meters will take ISE's as well as pH probes but I think we are talking over $1000 starting money, another couple of (or more) hundred for each probe and I'm far from sure they would be sensitive or accurate enough to measure 0.01ppm which would be what you need to measure Zn reliably.

Unfortunately not the type of toys I get to play with any more and cant afford.
Mark


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## mabrungard

Jack of all biers said:


> _Although all these salts are used, trials have shown that zinc-chloride seems to be most appropriate with no negative effects in case of overdosing"_ - B. Mändle, K.-U. Heyse, A Piendl, Über die Auswirkungen einer Zugabe von Zinksalzen zur Würze auf die Gärung, Proc. EBC, 483-494.


Um? That is not that great a consolation. The negative effects of sulfate would never be realized since the negative effects of the metallic zinc flavor would destroy the beer long before the sulfate would. That statement is a Red Herring, in my opinion. Considering that the mega-breweries are using zinc sulfate, I have to assume that they have also thought it through. I do prefer minerals that aren't hygroscopic.


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## MHB

There does appear to be an Atlantic divide, most of the European literature seems to prefer ZnCl2, American ZnSO4. I personally don't think its going to matter provided you know to keep the lid on the jar, I keep a drying sachet in there to, or make up a stock solution (very handy for small additions, more accurate if you don't have seriously good scales).
I don't have any problem keeping my CaCl2 from taking up too much water although it to is pretty deliquescent.

Another couple of examples of the Atlantic divide I have noticed -
North American brewers appear to use a lot of Phosphoric, as apposed to Lactic, HCl and H2SO4 (Germans use Bio-Acidification)
Kunze references a sour mash being used to make a Zn rich stock solution from (if I am reading it right) trub and expended malt.
American brewers lean on the Sulphate harder than do European brewers - a trend/generalisation - some Euro beers need a fair amount of sulphate

Might be a bit of an uphill push with a pointy stick, around here, arguing that we should follow US mega brewers processes, considering what the make and the regard in which their products are held.
Someone brought me a can of this




As a joke, at least I hope it was as a joke, also brought a bottle of Green Flash Palate Wrecker so easily forgiven.
I'm not a serious hop head, but the Green Flash brewers nailed that one.
Mark


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## rude

I recently used Bruns calc for a APA using the pale ale profile

Grain bill was 3.2kg maris otter
1kg munich 1
100g pale wheat
100g cara munich 11

Used R/O water 12 L mash in caso4 - 5.16g , cacl2 - 0.96g , mgso4 - 1.8g , ca(OH) - 0.6g (pickling lime )
10 L mash out no salts used they were reserved for the kettle
20 L sparge no salts used as above

34 L in the kettle caso4 - 12.9g , cacl2 - 2.4g , mgso4 - 4.5g

Put all this into Brun & got 5.41 PH calculation

I put all the mash salts in the mash tun put grain on top & underlet strike water

The reason I do this is because I have a basic 3 vessle system no pump
HLT is filled to 32 L & once mash in & out water is used I top up with 15 L for 20 L sparge leaving 5 L in HLT
so for ease of water treatment I underlet

Yet to get a PH meter but one is on its way ADWA 12 meter

Does this process seem ok or should I be treating the water first before adding to the mash tun

Also since using R/O water my attenuation has taken a slight hit so have been using wyeast nutrient
10 min at the end of the boil

Thanks to all who post in advance for advice
Cheers Rude


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## MHB

Ca(OH)2 being very basic it raises pH.
Curious as to why.
Mark


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## rude

Without it PH would have been 5.24 which would have been ok
but with R/O bicarbonate level was 16 ppm

The pale ale profile has bicarbonate at 110 ppm so used Ca(HO)2 to raise the bicarbonate level
with hopefully my PH still in if not a better range 5.41 ?????


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## manticle

pH of the mash presumably?

Bicarbonate won't add anything great to a pale brew as far as I understand so don't get too fixated on recommended profiles.
Instead look at the mash pH and preferred flavour profile and adjust/tweak from there.

By adding slaked lime, you are raising mash pH (possibly good for stout or porter) but by adding your other salts, you are dropping it: counterbalancing your own additions.

Keep it simple - minimum required levels of calcium, magnesium and zinc (mostly provided by all malt wort in the first two incidences, decent nutrient in the third), acid OR slaked lime to hit pH target, then ionic compound to target hop driven, malt driven or somewhere in between.


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## rude

So I could have used less Caso4 or Cacl2 or mgso4 or all 3 to achieve the 5.4 PH
then reserved them for the kettle to get the pale ale profile leaving the bicarbonate at 16ppm ?

I here you about the profiles but surely you have to aim for some type of profile ie full, balanced , dry yellow
which I have been doing

Have heard a lot about the high sulfate to make the hops ping (Randy Mosher) so thought I'de give it a go but used
the Brun pale ale profile

Was wondering about upping the bicarbonates so thanks for advice


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## Jack of all biers

Jack of all biers said:


> It's interesting you prefer Zinc Sulfate Heptahydrate as others have recommended Zinc Chloride as the better of the two. From Zie Germans: _"__In order to prevent fermentation defects, the zinc content of wort must be monitored and adjusted, if to low. This can be easily done in countries outside Germany by addition of zinc-salts, such as zinc-chloride, zinc-sulphate or zinc-asparate. Although all these salts are used, trials have shown that zinc-chloride seems to be most appropriate with no negative effects in case of overdosing"_ - [SIZE=11pt]B. Mändle, K.-U. Heyse, A Piendl,[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] Über die Auswirkungen einer Zugabe von Zinksalzen zur Würze auf die Gärung,[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] Proc. EBC, 483-494.[/SIZE]





mabrungard said:


> Um? That is not that great a consolation. The negative effects of sulfate would never be realized since the negative effects of the metallic zinc flavor would destroy the beer long before the sulfate would. That statement is a Red Herring, in my opinion. Considering that the mega-breweries are using zinc sulfate, I have to assume that they have also thought it through. I do prefer minerals that aren't hygroscopic.


I don't think they were refering to overdoses being catastrophically large additions, but more like adding 0.8 mg/L as opposed 0.2 mg/L. I'm pretty sure at those levels they weren't refering to the benefits of chlorides over sulphates (or asparate for that matter), but more to do with the way the yeast take up the zinc component from the zinc chloride. I'm not sure why this is though and it is just one study. I'm not an expert on it at all, but want to learn some more about zinc as it is the only needed element that is generally lacking in worts (especially in Australia). Any technical reasons for the benefits of one type of zinc compound over another (ie yeast can handle one type better than another) I'm keen to hear about.


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## MHB

Jack
When a salt goes into solution it disassociates into ions or radicals ZnCl2 > Zn2+ and 2Cl- or ZnSO4 > Zn2+ and SO42- called Cations and Anions
So the Zn will be in the same form and as we are talking about pretty minute quantities of Zn the accompanying anions (Cl or SO4) aren't going to matter.

Rude
I'm tempted to think adding Carbonate, most people use chalk (Calcium Carbonate) in anything other than a very black beer would be unnecessary.
The melanoidins that form in dark malt (and Beer) are acidic. This is why dark beers developed in high carbonate water areas (Guinness in Dublin being the classic example) using dark/roast malt to provide acid to counter the carbonate.
No doubt the carbonate and resulting reaction provides some of the typical flavours in dark beers and if I were making a dry stout with RoMo water there are plenty of good reasons for adding carbonate.
Not where I would be going with a pale beer. there is plenty of buffering capacity in malt and its usually harder to get the pH down rather than do anything to push it up.
Mark


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## rude

No worries thanks Mark

I bought the pickling lime for doing some dark beers stouts porters

Haven't done one yet but will

Thought Ide give the Brun pale ale profile a go which has the bicarbonates at 110 ppm
Could have gotten there keeping the bicarbonate low which is what I had been doing
Without the high sulfate level

Have brewed the APA keg is nearly done turned out nice but won't be using pickling lime for my next pale


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## Jack of all biers

Thanks Mark. So the Germans did mean overdose and chlorides having no neglible effect. At such small quantities this seems weird as no one would notice such small differences in sulphate or chloride levels (given 0.5 - 1 mg/L zinc might be considered an overdose)? Maybe it's the non-scientist in me trying to understand the other chemical reactions going on that they probably glossed over.


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## MHB

Nah - I think you have it, the only advantage of the sulphate is that it won't change weight while you are watching it (not that fast - but ZnCl2 is *VERY!* Hydrophilic)
Most of my technical reading is German (if for no other reason that I CBA'sed converting everything from irrational measuring systems), and as you have noted ZnCl2 is the one preferred in German brewing literature, so when I went lookin for stock I went with the "recommended" one. The other was that one of my suppliers stocked food grade Chloride, but not sulphate so....

Use what you have access to. I passed a 10kg bucket of it to Brewman, I'm not sure if its on the website yet but I know he has Food Grade Zinc Chloride - ask him if nothing else comes to hand.

Considering the amounts you need I would dissolve 1g in 1L of water, giving 1mg/mL
To add 0.1mg to 35L would be 3.5mg or 35mL. easy peasy
Mark

Hope I haven't flubbed my finger counting
M


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## MHB

Yep - make that 3.5mL
Mark


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