# Abit Of Cider Advice.



## mjadeb1984 (7/6/12)

hi all last tuesday the 29th of may i put down i cider. ingrediants as followed

1 can black rock cider
1 x 2.4L berri apple juice
1 x 2.4L berri apple and pear juice
250g lactose

and a brew enhancer pack consisting of

500g dex
250g light DME
250g Malto dextrine.

and i used a Wyeast Cider smack pack 4766 i think.

at first it was goin well but yesterday i took a sg reading and it was 1.020 and today it was the same.

whats goin on?
has my fermentation got stuck?
is it finished that high?
and what ever am i do do?

any help on the matter would be great as this is my first cider (mainly cause the missus asked for it) and i dont have much experiance with them

Cheers
Mic


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## manticle (7/6/12)

Fermentation tends to slow down as it gets towards the end. One reason why the 2/3 days at stable gravity and she's done 'rule' is utter bollocks.

A straight juice cider will get down to 1.000 or even lower but your lactose, DME and the maltodextrine will stop that happening so don't expect it to get that far down. There is also probably artificial sweetener in the kit which is unfermentable.

Clean and sanitise your hydrometer tube, take a sample's worth and place it in a clean sanitised stubby. Wrap some glad wrap over the top with a rubber band to hold it in place. Shake the bejesus out of it and keep it in a warmish place. Shake it whenever you think about it (put your thumb over the glad wrap obviously) and in about three days, pour back into the hydrometer tube and see if the gravity has dropped. If it has, repeat until it no longer drops. Your brew should be able to get to a similar point with some encouragement. If the sample stays where it is then the brew is probably not going to move far either.

1020 seems too high for me for that brew but kit kilo cider tin will give about 1008-1010 from memory (long time since I did one) so I might expect your recip to stop at 1015 or so. I am guessing a bit though.


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## JDW81 (7/6/12)

mjad said:


> hi all last tuesday the 29th of may i put down i cider. ingrediants as followed
> 
> 1 can black rock cider
> 1 x 2.4L berri apple juice
> ...



Patience is the key here. I've had ciders take over four weeks to ferment out. Just make sure your temperature control is good. You can give it a swirl to help rouse some of the yeast which has dropped out, but I wouldn't bother checking for another week at least. (FWIW I leave everything I brew for a minimum of two weeks before I even bother checking how it is going).

Manticle is right in saying that the extras you've added (lactose, DME etc) will give you a higher final gravity, but 1020 is a bit too high. I'd imagine it would finish somewhere in the vicinity of 1012. To say that though, don't be surprised if it drops lower. My last cider bottomed out at 1002.

Good luck with it.

JD.


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## mjadeb1984 (7/6/12)

cheers guys, all the info and advice you need is just a question away on this forum, gotta be one of the best around. for sure the best im a member of, thanks again.

i shall do the stubbie trick manticle for a guide of how its goin. temperature shouldnt be a problem its on the dining room table so a pretty constant temp inside. around over night probably abou 17-18ish and when the heaters on the room might get up to 23-24ish. 

my main concern is bottling to soon and getting some bottle bombs but i will leave for another 5 or so days and take a reading then.

again many thanks for a quick and informative answer.


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## manticle (7/6/12)

The cider won't suffer from the extra time and may/will benefit so be patient and avoid bottling if you are unsure.


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## troopa (7/6/12)

I find with most of my fermenting ciders that i get a massive amount of CO2 in my solution as it ferments
If your seeing any bubbles, that will raise your SG artificially
give the hydrometer a fair few swirls in the tube leave it 20 mins then a few more swirls and check again (i like swirling)
Other test is have a taste if its sweet then its still about the 1.010-1.020
if its drying out then its closer the the 1.000.


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## mjadeb1984 (7/6/12)

yeah heaps of bubbles in the sample. but tastes drier than i was expecting. time will tiell i guess ill update the thread when i test agin if nyones interested.
cheers
mic


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## mestoth (12/6/12)

mjad said:


> yeah heaps of bubbles in the sample. but tastes drier than i was expecting. time will tiell i guess ill update the thread when i test agin if nyones interested.
> cheers
> mic




Keep the updates,
Im about to start my first one in a few days (obtaining supplies phase now).
Trying to avoid the kit thing 
making a smaller batch (5Lt demijon) just to test out "process" before wasting 20 liters of juice 

Once I have the "process" sorted, I have an fruit orchid asking for some attempts (some variety of cider apples and a number of pear varieties)  -Though there is a "effort" factor in sorting fruit out....


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## troopa (12/6/12)

mestoth said:


> Keep the updates,
> Im about to start my first one in a few days (obtaining supplies phase now).
> Trying to avoid the kit thing
> making a smaller batch (5Lt demijon) just to test out "process" before wasting 20 liters of juice
> ...



You can always test "things" out with Berri or Aldi juice to start with too dont forget.. either use the demi or pour a cup out of the bottle and tip yeast in 

If your having issues with motivation on picking and sorting apples.. im sure Manticle and I will be more then willing to help out if your in Victoria :drinks:


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## mestoth (12/6/12)

Troopa said:


> You can always test "things" out with Berri or Aldi juice to start with too dont forget.. either use the demi or pour a cup out of the bottle and tip yeast in
> 
> If your having issues with motivation on picking and sorting apples.. im sure Manticle and I will be more then willing to help out if your in Victoria :drinks:




Yeah, about to purchase a couple of Demi's just for good measure and a few airlocks etc.
Hoping to get the gear on Saturday, with the Aldi\Coles\ etc Preserve free juice model laid down by that afternoon\sunday


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## InCider (12/6/12)

Throw away your hydrometer.....that's the first step. You'll break it soon enough anyway :lol: 

As has been covered - it is important not to brew to a tight schedule when working with animals such as yeast. Allocate a month, be happy with a fortnight and buy more fermenters so you can stock up.

I make cider almost exclusively and brew like Yoda with the The Force. Or maybe... brew Yoda...


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## mestoth (12/6/12)

InCider said:


> Throw away your hydrometer.....that's the first step. You'll break it soon enough anyway :lol:
> 
> As has been covered - it is important not to brew to a tight schedule when working with animals such as yeast. Allocate a month, be happy with a fortnight and buy more fermenters so you can stock up.
> 
> I make cider almost exclusively and brew like Yoda with the The Force. Or maybe... brew Yoda...




Yeah, the schedule thing is hence the mutliples 
My basic plan is:
Figure brew on Primary til whenever (till theres drop in SG\bubble loss\ insert advice here), then rack to secondary to sit for a fortnight or such (seems to be some debate), maybe a month then -> debate with myself about bottle priming or bulk priming ->bottle - > store for a few weeks (?2 given the 4 weeks in the secondary) -> drink?

At the same time, start the second batch as soon as my primary is fermented (and put into additional demis). Debating getting an additional primary up at the start to "get started", but if you rack to secondary the bulk of the time seems to be sitting in the secondary, rather than primary (or am I wrong here?)

However,
Reading the Primary V Secondary racking thread, is the secondary worth it?
I dont really have the space to do a cold rack of the secondary (well short of leaving it on my garage floor in Melbourne...where its fairly fridge like at the moment ) , however I have a handy wine fridge thing that goes fairly cold, that would tkae a number of bottles 

Also: thoughts on bottle type:
Planning on carbing it via either bulk prime\bottle prime. debating getting some of the Grolsh style ones (Larger volume, self sealing etc). however up for debate.


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## Armstrong (13/6/12)

mjad said:


> hi all last tuesday the 29th of may i put down i cider. ingrediants as followed
> 
> 1 can black rock cider
> 1 x 2.4L berri apple juice
> ...



What was your start S.G?

As far as I'm concerned, you have added a ton of fermentables, and that yeast is tolerant up to around 12% alcohol. If you are getting up there in alcohol strength it is going to labour towards the end ... if not stall.


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## mjadeb1984 (13/6/12)

pretty sure starting gravity was 1.052 but ill have to double check that when i get home.


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## Armstrong (13/6/12)

mjad said:


> pretty sure starting gravity was 1.052 but ill have to double check that when i get home.



That seems a bit low considering what you put into it


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## InCider (13/6/12)

mestoth said:


> Yeah, the schedule thing is hence the mutliples
> My basic plan is:
> Figure brew on Primary til whenever (till theres drop in SG\bubble loss\ insert advice here), then rack to secondary to sit for a fortnight or such (seems to be some debate), maybe a month then -> debate with myself about bottle priming or bulk priming ->bottle - > store for a few weeks (?2 given the 4 weeks in the secondary) -> drink?
> 
> ...



Hi Mestoth.. forget primary - cider will settle out in it's own time, so just use jerry cans beginning to end, and increase you number of them to allow for concurrent batches. I keg my ciders, but if I had to go back to bottling, I'd seriosly consider BribieG's PET 2l bottles from aldi...they're cheap, take a couple of litres and easy to store. But kegs are the easiest by far, and cheap.

S.


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## Greg.L (13/6/12)

InCider said:


> Hi Mestoth.. forget primary - cider will settle out in it's own time, so just use jerry cans beginning to end, and increase you number of them to allow for concurrent batches. I keg my ciders, but if I had to go back to bottling, I'd seriosly consider BribieG's PET 2l bottles from aldi...they're cheap, take a couple of litres and easy to store. But kegs are the easiest by far, and cheap.
> 
> S.



PET bottles are fine for cider to drink quickly, but you can't age cider in them, they oxidise pretty fast. I used to use PET but gave up pretty quick.


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## mjadeb1984 (13/6/12)

Armstrong said:


> That seems a bit low considering what you put into it



yeah it was deffinatly 1.052 doubled checked it to i was expecting quite a bit higher too.


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## jbowers (13/6/12)

Did you add any water?


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## mjadeb1984 (13/6/12)

yeah made up to 23L.

anyone know any brew calcs that have things like cider concentrate and juice?


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## nathan_madness (14/6/12)

Did you really mix it up well before you took your original test sample?? I've done it before with a beer kit not mixing it properly and getting a really low reading.
That SG of 1.052 would be correct if you just used juice and about 200g of dex. Store bought juice form Coles or Woolies is always SG 1.048. 
Your SG would have been around 1.080ish by to looks of things. What yeast did you use? SN9 will hold on till about 18% but most others die off around 10%.


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## mjadeb1984 (14/6/12)

mixed the shit out of it mate. i also thought it would have been quite abit higher. and i used wyeast cider cant remember the number.
any ways im gonna give it a test tomorrow and then im on goin on holidays for a week ill check it when i get back and we wiill see how it goes. im not to fussed it'l get there.

mic


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## nathan_madness (15/6/12)

Honestly that is the best thing to do. Leave it in the Primary till lit is totally clear rack it in to your mixing bucket then bottle or keg it. Should take between 4-6 weeks.


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## mestoth (16/6/12)

nathan_madness said:


> Honestly that is the best thing to do. Leave it in the Primary till lit is totally clear rack it in to your mixing bucket then bottle or keg it. Should take between 4-6 weeks.




well took the plunge;
Currently have 2 5 Litre Demi's (with 4L of juice) rolling with some S-04. Now to wait.....
1st one: Pure AJ from ALDI
2nd: 50% AJ + 50% Apple and Black Current (wife interested in those Rikordili things). Not sure if this one is going to be any good but meh:

If this works fine, Ill be upscalling and enrolling the two demi jons into "trial" projects. 

Stupid Question: Dry pitch the yeast or rehydrate.

The pack said just sprinkle in (without any rehydrating etc). That seems odd to me but went with it (I figure even if only 2% of the total cells survive it will still have the effect!). Needs to find more effeciant way to steralise a full 23Litre fermenter though.


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## nathan_madness (16/6/12)

mestoth said:


> well took the plunge;
> Currently have 2 5 Litre Demi's (with 4L of juice) rolling with some S-04. Now to wait.....
> 1st one: Pure AJ from ALDI
> 2nd: 50% AJ + 50% Apple and Black Current (wife interested in those Rikordili things). Not sure if this one is going to be any good but meh:
> ...



Yeah, just dry pitch the yeast is fine depending on which yeast you are using.

Wash your demijohn with Morning fresh and then starsan it easy as!


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## mestoth (17/6/12)

Well, 12 hours in, seems to be working.

Bubbling via the locks (slowly but every couple of mins), Yeasties on the top. The temp seems just right ~17-18 degrees (s-04 yeast), though overnight it did drop down a bit inside but blanketted the whole thing up, so dont think it got too bad (Melbourne here)


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## mestoth (18/6/12)

So all things are going well in my little side project:
The question that is in my mind right now is how long to run it for:
If I run it right out, and let it sit for 2-4 weeks in the primary, is carbonating this possible?
ie, are there any yeasties still functional at this point\reviveable?

I am debating bulk priming with more juice depending on tartness or just using some priming sugar + something to backsweetan.

Looking for some advice regarding that really.


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## nathan_madness (18/6/12)

mestoth said:


> So all things are going well in my little side project:
> The question that is in my mind right now is how long to run it for:
> If I run it right out, and let it sit for 2-4 weeks in the primary, is carbonating this possible?
> ie, are there any yeasties still functional at this point\reviveable?
> ...



You can leave it in the primary for as long as you want usually 4 weeks is enough to get a good clear cider. 
There will be still more than enough yeasties in there for bottle carbonation. 
You will have to be very careful with back sweetening with juice as you never know how much sugar you are adding back, unless you are trying to make grenades that is.


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## mestoth (18/6/12)

nathan_madness said:


> You can leave it in the primary for as long as you want usually 4 weeks is enough to get a good clear cider.
> There will be still more than enough yeasties in there for bottle carbonation.
> You will have to be very careful with back sweetening with juice as you never know how much sugar you are adding back, unless you are trying to make grenades that is.


Ya, hence the priming sugar plan. Blowing up some grenades wasnt on the agenda


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## InCider (18/6/12)

mestoth said:


> Ya, hence the priming sugar plan. Blowing up some grenades wasnt on the agenda



Just don't make grenades in the first place :lol:


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## mjadeb1984 (23/6/12)

ok back on original question. its been almost 1 month now and just took an sg reading... still 1.020.
a few things to note tho, it has been very cold at my place and i ont have temp controll i would say that the fermenter has been in a room with the average temp ariound 16 degrees i know this is quite cold but would have thought it would still ferment only fairly slowly.

any thoughts or suggestions on what to do, i did taste the sample i took and it is delicious so not worried about that aspect.

Cheers
mic


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## nathan_madness (23/6/12)

16 deg is a perfect fermenting temp, so no worries there. Just leave it sit there till you can see clearly though to the other side of your fermenter and then do what you want with it bottle, keg etc.


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## mjadeb1984 (28/6/12)

ok 16 is good but what about the 1.020 for a month, how can i give ferment a kick in the pants?


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## nathan_madness (29/6/12)

mjad said:


> yeah made up to 23L.
> 
> anyone know any brew calcs that have things like cider concentrate and juice?




There are way to many variables for juice I believe to have a calculator for them. If you find one let us all know. 90% of the juices that you can buy at your supermarkets are 1.048 if that is any help.


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## Gop (19/7/12)

InCider said:


> Just don't make grenades in the first place :lol:



I made a batch once and every single one either blew up or blew it's cap and shot cider 12' in the air. This was after adding 1/2 a tsp of sugar in an attempt to get some sparkle in the cider.

After that debacle I now tip Coles apple juice, 1kg brown sugar, a cinammon stick and a few cloves into the clean keg. Tip a packet of cider or champagne yeast on top and airlock it (I don't agitate).

Leave it for a minimum of 2 weeks, bottle it and leave for 2-3 months. It turns out very dry, very strong and flat, but usually tastes great (I have simple tastes). 

That's essentially how they did in in ye olde times except often they didnt bottle it! Might have to find a nice stainless steel keg with a tap on it as a secondary. Good luck all!


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## manticle (19/7/12)

mjad said:


> ok 16 is good but what about the 1.020 for a month, how can i give ferment a kick in the pants?



Almost a month late so I hope you got it sorted but if anyone else has this issue, it may be a lack of yeast nutrient, particularly nitrogen (from Proux and from memory).

In days gone by some form of flesh might be added to cider for this reason* but diammonium phosphate should do the trick and is suitable for vegetarians. If still stuck, try racking or some fresh active yeast (eg an apple juice starter).

*I am not recommending chuck steak or cock in your cider.


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## mestoth (22/7/12)

manticle said:


> Almost a month late so I hope you got it sorted but if anyone else has this issue, it may be a lack of yeast nutrient, particularly nitrogen (from Proux and from memory).
> 
> In days gone by some form of flesh might be added to cider for this reason* but diammonium phosphate should do the trick and is suitable for vegetarians. If still stuck, try racking or some fresh active yeast (eg an apple juice starter).
> 
> *I am not recommending chuck steak or cock in your cider.




Ok thought I would update:

Just bottled 2 Carboys (~10 L)
Which worked well

Quite Nice considering its a ALDI Juice batch 

Lessons Learnt:
1) Auto Syphon I had was too big to fit into neck of the carboys. Much annoying.
2) Always get MORE tubing. length of tubing I had would have been fine for the auto syphon. but too short without!
3) Used Groslsh bottles. Which are fine. Until you let your wife put the caps on to "help you", and she puts them on backwards (so it can never seal). Removing and resealing == bitch plus

OG: 1.045
FG 1.005
About 5.25% if my maths are right. can complain 

currently Carbing in the bottles, but have some to drink tonight (ran outta bottles so have a 2L jug to drink tonight )


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## yum beer (22/7/12)

Made my first cider about 2 months ago for my sons 18th, he's not a beer fan and recently discovered he doesnt mind cider.
12.8 litres of assorted supermarket juice, 1 sachet Lalvin ec-1118 Champagne yeast, OG 1043, FG 1000, bulk primed with cloudy apple juice...6.1% ABV in the bottle.
Tasting today the botles are still undercarbed...garage sitting about 13c, need to bring inside for a week or two....very dry but certainly cider.
Son enjoyed sweetened with about 1/3 Fresh Apple Juice...step father who rarely drinks loved it straight from the bottle....
Under $20 for carton and a half of cider...gotta be happy.


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