# James Squire Amber Ale Clone



## gavpk

Hi all,
Im planning for my forth batch now and found this,

A blend of pale, crystal and carapils malts produces a distinctive coppery colour, rich malt
sweetness and persistent creamy head. The flavour is very ale-like with a lingering slightly
nutty finish. Willamette hops are added late in the kettle boil for a refreshing citrus 
(almost grapefruit) hop character. (description copied from malt shovel website)

Its JAMES SQUIRE AMBER ALE and ive been drinking a fair bit of it lately 
(waiting for the others to become drinkable) could someone please help me create 
a rough recipe from this? Ive got a can of APA, 500g of dried crystal malt (grain form), 
heaps of LDME, dextrose, BE1 and US56 yeast in stock and im going down the HBS on Thursday
to get some more stuff , I think this is the beer for me and hope (after a few batchs and 
some good pointers) I can end up with a good clone.

cheers :beer: 

Gav


----------



## gavpk

I went down the brew shop after work and got some carapils malt, Willamette hops and safale 
S04 yeast (the bloke at the shop said it would be better than US-56 for this type of beer), anyways this is what i came up with, based on what ive read

1 can of coopers APA
250g carapils malt 
250g crystal malt
600g LDME
400g BE #1
25g Willamette hops
Safale S04 

Steep the carapils and crystal malt in half the can of goo at 60oC for 20 mins, boil the Willamette
for 30 mins in 1 litre of water, throw all this, plus the rest in the fermenter and fill to 23 litres, 
cool, then pitch yeast.
would this come anywhere close to a JS amber ale? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. 

cheers :beer: 

Gav


----------



## hewy

Firstly I would like to say that I am no expert, but I am not sure if 250g of crystal would be too much?

It might make the beer too dark. Maybe think about cutting back to 100g...

Let me know how it turns out in any case as I am a big fan of JS amber ale.


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## T.D.

sir_drinks_alot said:


> Steep the carapils



I'm pretty sure you can't steep carapils - it needs to be mashed.


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## Stuster

I agree that you need to mash the carapils. If this is your first time to use grains, I'd just stick with the crystal for now. I don't think that 250g will be too much. I'd steep the crystal in 1L of 60-70C water for 30 minutes (no need for the goop). Then rinse it with another litre of water. Boil up the wort you now have (the crystal water, but with no grains in it) and once it's boiling add half the Willamette. After 20 minutes add the LDME, 5 more minutes add the rest of the hops, boil for 5 more minutes. Turn it off and into the fermenter with the kit and the BE#1 and top it up. S04 is a fine yeast for this style.

(PS - it's been ages since I did anything but AG, but this is seems good by my faulty memory.  )


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## T.D.

I agree with Stuster re sticking to just the Crystal for now, but if you want another grain type other than the crystal, try 50-100g of Amber malt. I think this is a really important ingredient in a JSAA recipe.

Can anybody shed any light on whether Amber Malt needs to be mashed??? Like Stu its been many years since I ever steeped grain, but from memory it may need to be mashed...

Ah, just found this which explains it all fairly well. Looks like Amber (or Biscuit as they call it) needs to be mashed. Oh well, scrap that idea!! :lol:


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## gavpk

T.D. said:


> I agree with Stuster re sticking to just the Crystal for now, but if you want another grain type other than the crystal, try 50-100g of Amber malt. I think this is a really important ingredient in a JSAA recipe.
> 
> Can anybody shed any light on whether Amber Malt needs to be mashed??? Like Stu its been many years since I ever steeped grain, but from memory it may need to be mashed...
> 
> Ah, just found this which explains it all fairly well. Looks like Amber (or Biscuit as they call it) needs to be mashed. Oh well, scrap that idea!! :lol:




hi,
is that coopers liquid amber malt, or can i buy it in dry grain form?and mashing the carapils, i take it this is only for AG or can it be used with KK

cheers :beer: 

Gav


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## Ross

Carapils does NOT need mashing.

Whether that recipe will come out anything like JS amber, i'd be surprised, but report back & let us know. 

cheers Ross


----------



## Stuster

That's interesting, Ross. Just a myth then? John Palmer certainly says it does need to be mashed, but the cara bit suggests crystal.


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## T.D.

sir_drinks_alot said:


> hi,
> is that coopers liquid amber malt, or can i buy it in dry grain form?and mashing the carapils, i take it this is only for AG or can it be used with KK
> 
> cheers :beer:
> 
> Gav



The "Amber Malt" I referred to is a grain type. Its not just amber-coloured extract. Gives a nice biscuity, even lightly roasted flavour to the beer, which I think is a distinguishing characteristic in JS Amber Ale.

You don't need to be an AG brewer to do a small mash - basically it becomes a partial mash. I think its probably not worth trying to mash at this stage though, steeping is probably a good bet though. Once you have steeping down you can start fooling around with mashing grains. All the necessary info is found in the online book I referred to above: http://www.howtobrew.com/intro.html


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## T.D.

Ross said:


> Carapils does NOT need mashing.



How so Ross? This is from How to Brew...

_Dextrin Malt 3 L Also known as American Carapils, this malt is used sparingly and contributes little color but enhances the mouthfeel and perceived body of the beer. A common amount for a five gallon batch is 1/2 lb. Dextrin malt has no diastatic power. *It must be mashed*; if steeped it will contribute a lot of unconverted starch and cause starch haze._


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## Tony

have a go at this. Dont use the APA kit, it will have all the wrong flavours

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 23.00 Wort Size (L): 23.00
Total Grain (kg): 3.33
Anticipated OG: 1.044 Plato: 11.05
Anticipated EBC: 20.0
Anticipated IBU: 22.3
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 45 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
90.1 3.00 kg. Coopers LME - Light Australia 1.038 7
9.0 0.30 kg. TF Crystal UK 1.034 140
0.9 0.03 kg. TF Chocolate Malt UK 1.033 900

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
40.00 g. Willamette Pellet 4.30 20.1 45 min.
20.00 g. Willamette Pellet 4.30 2.2 5 min.


Yeast
-----

US-56 or SO-4



The night before, heat 1 liter of water to about 70 deg in a small pot and remove from the heat. Add in your cracked crystal (300g) and 30g of cracked chocolate malt and stir in. the chocolate isnt stated on the website but it lends a fantastic nutty complexity and amber colour without having tio use a ton of crystal.
Put the lid on and forget about it for 12 to 24 hours

the next day get 2 cans of coopers un hopped liquid malt extract.

disolve 1 can in about 10 to 12 liters in a big 18 odd liter pot ($20 from Woolworths)

bring it to the boil and add the first 40g of hops.

boil them for 40 minuites then add the remaining 20g of hops.

Boil these for for 5 minuites then remove the lot from the heat.

strain the liquid from the little pot with your crystal ect in it into the big pot with the hops, just use a fine kitchen strainer to do this and dont go rinsing it with boiling water to get more colour from it, all you will get is tannins......... yuck.

Now disolve the other tin of coopers liquid extract in the big pot and cool it down in the laundry sink, bath tub, where ever.

tip it in the firmenter when cool strain out the hops if you can, and top it up with cold water to 23 liters.

off you go.

this will be a far better beer than one made with a kit as a base.

trust me.

cheers


----------



## Ross

T.D. said:


> How so Ross? This is from How to Brew...
> 
> _Dextrin Malt 3 L Also known as American Carapils, this malt is used sparingly and contributes little color but enhances the mouthfeel and perceived body of the beer. A common amount for a five gallon batch is 1/2 lb. Dextrin malt has no diastatic power. *It must be mashed*; if steeped it will contribute a lot of unconverted starch and cause starch haze._



There is an Americam malster (briess) that states their carapils needs mashing, but i can promise you that the weyermanns carapils available in this country does not need mashing.
to quote Wes Smith who used to be the importer...
"Carapils, or just plain dextrin malt is a crystal malt that has been lightly kilned but not roasted to the point of caramelisation. It is used to add both body and head retention to lighter coloured beers - and especially low acohol beers. It can be steeped or mashed just the same as any other crystal or roasted malt."

cheers Ross


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## T.D.

Ross said:


> There is an Americam malster (briess) that states their carapils needs mashing, but i can promise you that the weyermanns carapils available in this country does not need mashing.
> to quote Wes Smith who used to be the importer...
> "Carapils, or just plain dextrin malt is a crystal malt that has been lightly kilned but not roasted to the point of caramelisation. It is used to add both body and head retention to lighter coloured beers - and especially low acohol beers. It can be steeped or mashed just the same as any other crystal or roasted malt."
> 
> cheers Ross



Interesting. Certainly turns all advice I have seen on its head! Have you or anybody you know tried steeping it?


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## Ross

T.D. said:


> Interesting. Certainly turns all advice I have seen on its head! Have you or anybody you know tried steeping it?



Yes & works fine  .

I can sense you doubt me  .....It's been discused a few times before, if you do a search....


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## T.D.

Ross said:


> Yes & works fine  .
> 
> I can sense you doubt me  .....It's been discused a few times before, if you do a search....



Nah, not doubting you, just quite a revelation that's all! Not steeping carapils has been a staple rule for as long as I can remember, so just wanted to know if the theory had been tested!


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## gavpk

Tony said:


> have a go at this. Dont use the APA kit, it will have all the wrong flavours
> 
> A ProMash Recipe Report
> 
> Recipe Specifics
> ----------------
> 
> Batch Size (L): 23.00 Wort Size (L): 23.00
> Total Grain (kg): 3.33
> Anticipated OG: 1.044 Plato: 11.05
> Anticipated EBC: 20.0
> Anticipated IBU: 22.3
> Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
> Wort Boil Time: 45 Minutes
> Grain/Extract/Sugar
> 
> % Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 90.1 3.00 kg. Coopers LME - Light Australia 1.038 7
> 9.0 0.30 kg. TF Crystal UK 1.034 140
> 0.9 0.03 kg. TF Chocolate Malt UK 1.033 900
> 
> Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.
> Hops
> 
> Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 40.00 g. Willamette Pellet 4.30 20.1 45 min.
> 20.00 g. Willamette Pellet 4.30 2.2 5 min.
> Yeast
> -----
> 
> US-56 or SO-4
> The night before, heat 1 liter of water to about 70 deg in a small pot and remove from the heat. Add in your cracked crystal (300g) and 30g of cracked chocolate malt and stir in. the chocolate isnt stated on the website but it lends a fantastic nutty complexity and amber colour without having tio use a ton of crystal.
> Put the lid on and forget about it for 12 to 24 hours
> 
> the next day get 2 cans of coopers un hopped liquid malt extract.
> 
> disolve 1 can in about 10 to 12 liters in a big 18 odd liter pot ($20 from Woolworths)
> 
> bring it to the boil and add the first 40g of hops.
> 
> boil them for 40 minuites then add the remaining 20g of hops.
> 
> Boil these for for 5 minuites then remove the lot from the heat.
> 
> strain the liquid from the little pot with your crystal ect in it into the big pot with the hops, just use a fine kitchen strainer to do this and dont go rinsing it with boiling water to get more colour from it, all you will get is tannins......... yuck.
> 
> Now disolve the other tin of coopers liquid extract in the big pot and cool it down in the laundry sink, bath tub, where ever.
> 
> tip it in the firmenter when cool strain out the hops if you can, and top it up with cold water to 23 liters.
> 
> off you go.
> 
> this will be a far better beer than one made with a kit as a base.
> 
> trust me.
> 
> cheers



Sounds good, thanks for that, does promash have this included or did you create this from your experience?

cheers :beer: 

Gav


----------



## gavpk

Ross said:


> Whether that recipe will come out anything like JS amber, i'd be surprised, but report back & let us know.
> 
> cheers Ross



Ross,
To help with the final recipe Ill use, what would you suggest for a JSAA (keeping in mind that I will take everyones advice and leave mashing alone for now)

cheers :beer: 

Gav


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## Ross

sir_drinks_alot said:


> Ross,
> To help with the final recipe Ill use, what would you suggest for a JSAA (keeping in mind that I will take everyones advice and leave mashing alone for now)
> 
> cheers :beer:
> 
> Gav



No experience on this one, sorry - Tony is a great brewer, so I'd be following his advice  
Got to try his "bright ale" clone from a local brewer last week - top drop mate :super: 

cheers Ross


----------



## gavpk

Ross said:


> No experience on this one, sorry - Tony is a great brewer, so I'd be following his advice
> Got to try his "bright ale" clone from a local brewer last week - top drop mate :super:
> 
> cheers Ross



will do Ross, thanks anyway.

Gav


----------



## Tony

just out of my head 

Its what i would do if i was making a JSAA. I love the stuff.

It may not be exactly the same but it will be close and a nice drop to boot.

Ross, glad you liked the LCBA, i loved it too.

I just made it again but used amarillo insta=ead of the cascade. It has definate passionfruit notes, cant wait to tap it.

cheers


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## gavpk

Good stuff Tony! yeah i love it too
well ive got my recipe then, i will let everyone know how she turns out.

cheers :beer: 

Gav


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## gazz78

sir_drinks_alot said:


> Its JAMES SQUIRE AMBER ALE and ive been drinking a fair bit of it lately
> 
> Gav



Picked up a 6 pack of it on the way home tonight, Very nice stuff


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## gavpk

gazz78 said:


> Picked up a 6 pack of it on the way home tonight, Very nice stuff



yeah, the other standard beers (VB, Melbourne) just dont compare, ive made it my mission ATM to clone JSAA.

cheers :beer: 

Gav


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## gazz78

The Cascade Amber Ale I found was also right on the money. The only one I found not to be very good, and I know people will flame me for this is Little Creatures. I have yet to fully understand why people rave on about that brewery :blink:


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## Sprungmonkey

Yeah I love this beer -- was lucky enough to come across a few cartons for 35 bucks at the valley liqour land which closed down a few wks ago.


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## Back Yard Brewer

gazz78 said:


> I have yet to fully understand why people rave on about that brewery :blink:



Its not the brewery its how good the beer tastes that is at question.


BYB


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## Mantis

Not a kit but I tried for an amber ale with a G&G fresh wort (artisan ale 1) and added 500g of steeped Bairds crystal and pitched a wyeast 1050. It is the right colour (although cloudy) and has a nutty taste and i am liking it a lot. 

I like the look of your recipe Tony and will give it a try as I have the ingredients, thanks.


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## Mantis

Going to try the recipe posted above by Tony tommorow. Have all the fermentables but no Willamette hops. 
I have

Saaz
Northen Brewer 
Amarillo
Fuggles
cascade
Hallertau
goldings
Which would be the best substitute to use???
Many thanks


----------



## Mantis

Mantis said:


> Going to try the recipe posted above by Tony tommorow. Have all the fermentables but no Willamette hops.
> I have
> 
> Saaz
> Northen Brewer
> Amarillo
> Fuggles
> cascade
> Hallertau
> goldings
> Which would be the best substitute to use???
> Many thanks



Ok :unsure: 

Decided to go with 40g Fuggles 4.4 40min
15g Hallertau 5 min


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## sama

theres a thread somewhere on here that suggests that they dont actually use carapils grain as we know it...its more of a light crystal that is specially made for them,and carapils is just a name tagged to it. More of a JW caramalt type thing.Ive had a crack at a Ag recipe and am looking to perfect it,am finding it hard to ge tthat distinctive "nutty" after taste down pat,going to try even more amber malt next time.


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## chemacky

looks good.


----------



## Mantis

Tony said:


> have a go at this. Dont use the APA kit, it will have all the wrong flavours
> 
> A ProMash Recipe Report
> 
> Recipe Specifics
> ----------------
> 
> Batch Size (L): 23.00 Wort Size (L): 23.00
> Total Grain (kg): 3.33
> Anticipated OG: 1.044 Plato: 11.05
> Anticipated EBC: 20.0
> Anticipated IBU: 22.3
> Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
> Wort Boil Time: 45 Minutes
> 
> 
> Grain/Extract/Sugar
> 
> % Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 90.1 3.00 kg. Coopers LME - Light Australia 1.038 7
> 9.0 0.30 kg. TF Crystal UK 1.034 140
> 0.9 0.03 kg. TF Chocolate Malt UK 1.033 900
> 
> Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.
> 
> 
> Hops
> 
> Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 40.00 g. Willamette Pellet 4.30 20.1 45 min.
> 20.00 g. Willamette Pellet 4.30 2.2 5 min.
> 
> 
> Yeast
> -----
> 
> US-56 or SO-4
> 
> 
> 
> The night before, heat 1 liter of water to about 70 deg in a small pot and remove from the heat. Add in your cracked crystal (300g) and 30g of cracked chocolate malt and stir in. the chocolate isnt stated on the website but it lends a fantastic nutty complexity and amber colour without having tio use a ton of crystal.
> Put the lid on and forget about it for 12 to 24 hours
> 
> the next day get 2 cans of coopers un hopped liquid malt extract.
> 
> disolve 1 can in about 10 to 12 liters in a big 18 odd liter pot ($20 from Woolworths)
> 
> bring it to the boil and add the first 40g of hops.
> 
> boil them for 40 minuites then add the remaining 20g of hops.
> 
> Boil these for for 5 minuites then remove the lot from the heat.
> 
> strain the liquid from the little pot with your crystal ect in it into the big pot with the hops, just use a fine kitchen strainer to do this and dont go rinsing it with boiling water to get more colour from it, all you will get is tannins......... yuck.
> 
> Now disolve the other tin of coopers liquid extract in the big pot and cool it down in the laundry sink, bath tub, where ever.
> 
> tip it in the firmenter when cool strain out the hops if you can, and top it up with cold water to 23 liters.
> 
> off you go.
> 
> this will be a far better beer than one made with a kit as a base.
> 
> trust me.
> 
> cheers



Well, thanks Tony. Pulled the first of these tonight and although not carbed enough is very good. The nutty taste is there and it is a crisp clear brew. 
This was my first brew without a kit can and I am impressed. 
I didnt have the Willamette hops and went with Fuggles for the boil then Hallatau at the end
Thanks again Tony for knudging me away from kit cans with this recipe


----------



## Luka

Tony said:


> have a go at this. Dont use the APA kit, it will have all the wrong flavours
> 
> A ProMash Recipe Report
> 
> Recipe Specifics
> ----------------
> 
> Batch Size (L): 23.00 Wort Size (L): 23.00
> Total Grain (kg): 3.33
> Anticipated OG: 1.044 Plato: 11.05
> Anticipated EBC: 20.0
> Anticipated IBU: 22.3
> Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
> Wort Boil Time: 45 Minutes
> 
> 
> Grain/Extract/Sugar
> 
> % Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 90.1 3.00 kg. Coopers LME - Light Australia 1.038 7
> 9.0 0.30 kg. TF Crystal UK 1.034 140
> 0.9 0.03 kg. TF Chocolate Malt UK 1.033 900
> 
> Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.
> 
> 
> Hops
> 
> Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 40.00 g. Willamette Pellet 4.30 20.1 45 min.
> 20.00 g. Willamette Pellet 4.30 2.2 5 min.
> 
> 
> Yeast
> -----
> 
> US-56 or SO-4


That's very similar to a brew I recently did and it came out pretty good. James Squire mention 3 distinct hop varieties are used in JSAA, but I only know that Willamette is one of them. Anyone know the other two?


----------



## Tim

I think that they use Northdown quite late - and they probably use Pride of Ringwood or Super Alpha for bittering.


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## petesbrew

Bump & Hijack.

Just doing a quick Amber Ale thingy, and was scouting for hop/yeast variations.
My recipe so far is pretty simple
Coopers APA
1kg Amber DME
15g Amarillo @15min
15g Amarillo @0min

Yeast: either Windsor, S-33 or Whitbread (what's in the fridge basically).

Don't have any crystal, but I have some melanoidin?...


----------



## Luka

petesbrew said:


> Bump & Hijack.
> 
> Just doing a quick Amber Ale thingy, and was scouting for hop/yeast variations.
> My recipe so far is pretty simple
> Coopers APA
> 1kg Amber DME
> 15g Amarillo @15min
> 15g Amarillo @0min
> 
> Yeast: either Windsor, S-33 or Whitbread (what's in the fridge basically).
> 
> Don't have any crystal, but I have some melanoidin?...



I think the amarillo in that will make it come out more like Little Creatures than JS Amber ale. I used willamette because it gives that nutty/earthy taste that JSAA has, yeast wise I used windsor, but you could use US 56 or whatever its called now, US-04? An american yeast in other words.


----------



## petesbrew

Luka said:


> I think the amarillo in that will make it come out more like Little Creatures than JS Amber ale. I used willamette because it gives that nutty/earthy taste that JSAA has, yeast wise I used windsor, but you could use US 56 or whatever its called now, US-04? An american yeast in other words.


Kinda what I was thinking. Amber = english. We'll call it an amber/golden crossover ale then. Cheers


----------



## Bubba Q

i think i am going to have to tag this thread for future reference...

tony, your recipe seems like the perfect step for me to move into extract brewing

cheers


----------



## Bubba Q

Tony said:


> have a go at this. Dont use the APA kit, it will have all the wrong flavours
> 
> A ProMash Recipe Report
> 
> Recipe Specifics
> ----------------
> 
> Batch Size (L): 23.00 Wort Size (L): 23.00
> Total Grain (kg): 3.33
> Anticipated OG: 1.044 Plato: 11.05
> Anticipated EBC: 20.0
> Anticipated IBU: 22.3
> Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
> Wort Boil Time: 45 Minutes
> 
> 
> Grain/Extract/Sugar
> 
> % Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 90.1 3.00 kg. Coopers LME - Light Australia 1.038 7
> 9.0 0.30 kg. TF Crystal UK 1.034 140
> 0.9 0.03 kg. TF Chocolate Malt UK 1.033 900
> 
> Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.
> 
> 
> Hops
> 
> Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 40.00 g. Willamette Pellet 4.30 20.1 45 min.
> 20.00 g. Willamette Pellet 4.30 2.2 5 min.
> 
> 
> Yeast
> -----
> 
> US-56 or SO-4
> 
> 
> 
> The night before, heat 1 liter of water to about 70 deg in a small pot and remove from the heat. Add in your cracked crystal (300g) and 30g of cracked chocolate malt and stir in. the chocolate isnt stated on the website but it lends a fantastic nutty complexity and amber colour without having tio use a ton of crystal.
> Put the lid on and forget about it for 12 to 24 hours
> 
> the next day get 2 cans of coopers un hopped liquid malt extract.
> 
> disolve 1 can in about 10 to 12 liters in a big 18 odd liter pot ($20 from Woolworths)
> 
> bring it to the boil and add the first 40g of hops.
> 
> boil them for 40 minuites then add the remaining 20g of hops.
> 
> Boil these for for 5 minuites then remove the lot from the heat.
> 
> strain the liquid from the little pot with your crystal ect in it into the big pot with the hops, just use a fine kitchen strainer to do this and dont go rinsing it with boiling water to get more colour from it, all you will get is tannins......... yuck.
> 
> Now disolve the other tin of coopers liquid extract in the big pot and cool it down in the laundry sink, bath tub, where ever.
> 
> tip it in the firmenter when cool strain out the hops if you can, and top it up with cold water to 23 liters.
> 
> off you go.
> 
> this will be a far better beer than one made with a kit as a base.
> 
> trust me.
> 
> cheers



ok, I now have free fermenter & keg available to put this down this weekend, as this is my first attempt at an extract brew I fear i may have done something silly. 

At this stage I have placed the grain into the water for steeping and was rewarded with a rich dark liquid, now about 1/2 hour later it appears that the grain has soaked up the all the water in the pot (1lt as per recipe) and now looks quite dry. My question will the water come back out of the grain if left for the 12-24 hours? or will I need to pour some hot water through it when straining it into the malt & hop mix?


----------



## Mantis

Bubba Q said:


> ok, I now have free fermenter & keg available to put this down this weekend, as this is my first attempt at an extract brew I fear i may have done something silly.
> 
> At this stage I have placed the grain into the water for steeping and was rewarded with a rich dark liquid, now about 1/2 hour later it appears that the grain has soaked up the all the water in the pot (1lt as per recipe) and now looks quite dry. My question will the water come back out of the grain if left for the 12-24 hours? or will I need to pour some hot water through it when straining it into the malt & hop mix?



I have done this and use more water. More like 3lt. Anyway, I would just add a couple of litres of 60 deg water to the pot tommorow and leave it for 10 min then strain into the boil pot. 
I have another one of these in the fermenter at the moment but I bigged it up a bit to do 25lt.


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## Bubba Q

cheers for the info


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## Crunched

And instead of steeping for 12-24 hours like the recipe says, maybe try 30 mins? So get your water for your wort ready at temp, then steep for 30mins, then remove grains (in a grain/hop bag or something) then boil water and begin hop schedule?

One thing I have learnt about this site - while there may be many talented brewers, it's always good to read up on many methods before following a recipe. Work out what works and what doesn't, then make your own brewing decision.


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## petesbrew

Made up a quick one on the weekend. A very Half Arsed attempt.
I was more interested in watching Alien Vs Predator on telly that I couldn't be bothered stirring out the lumps. (those ones you get after stupidly pouring hot water straight onto DME).
* meh. Amber Ale*
Coopers Real Ale
1kg Amber DME
20g Willamette
Wy1099 Whitbread Ale yeast
OG 1042 (not counting the lumps).

Expecting the worst, so things can only get better hey?


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## Supra-Jim

I did this recipe on Saturday. didn't steep the grains overnight, just gave em 30mins at 65degs in about 5ltr water.

All is looking well at the moment and smelling good!


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## doon

I am going to give this a go according to Tony's recipe on saturday

So is the steeping for 12 - 24 hours not really that necessary?? 

Bloke at Grain and Grape said 30 mins


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## MarkBastard

Tony, my first ever batch is your James Squire Amber Ale clone. It's currently cooling down and I'll add the yeast tonight.

Will let you know how it turns out!


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## Bubba Q

been sneaking in a few pints of this during the week (keg not fully carbed up yet)...

bloody billiant stuff, will definately be putting this one down again in the future


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## HoppingMad

The Malt Shovel Kit "Nut Brown Ale" has similar flavour profiles to the James Squire Amber and is made by the same brewery you're wanting to clone. You could look at using that kit (which is closer to the real deal) as a base option also rather than an APA, or check out some of the other kits in that Malt Shovel range.

Hopper.


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## Tim

The Malt Shovel kits are made in bulk by Lion Nathan and not produced at the malt Shovel brewery. They are sold in NZ as Mac's brew kits. I think they are made there as well.


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## MarkBastard

Over half way through my second pint of this!

It's more bitter than I was expecting but other than that is quite close to JSAA. I'm not sure if the bitter came from the way I brewed it or not.

I didn't use a hop sock and I fermented for about 8 days at 18 degrees and then chilled to about 4 degrees for 6 days and then kegged today. There was a lot of hop sediment at the bottom of the fermenter and only small amounts made it to the keg. In fact just holding my second one up to the sun now and can see hardly any sediment.

Great colour. I'll be making another batch of this for sure.


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## MarkBastard

Okay the first few glasses were a bit too bitty, but they also had some floating hop particles. After that it settled down a bit and although still with a bitter hoppy flavour, the malt shone through nicely. Great beer. Thanks heaps for the recipe.


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## MarkBastard

As I was getting near the end of this and it was running out I decided to stop drinking it for a while.

I was still thinking it was too bitter but I've since realised it was probably over gassed and the gas feeling on my tongue was making me think it was bitter. All part of the learning experience.

Anyway, so it's about 1/5th full, I purged the co2 from it and then let it sit for a week. Just hooked it back up and poured a glass and my god this is good. It's really malty if anything with just the right amount of hops, but a massive malt flavour. Pretty much my idea of the perfect beer.

I'm definitely gunna make this again, though probably do it all grain once I'm set up.

Cheers again.


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## Tony

Ahhh forgot about this thread.

Probably not vital that the grain is soaked overnight. 30 to 60 min will do it but i used to like to cold soak it overnight is all. As said very well above...... try a few different methods and work what works for you!

If your getting hops in your keg you need to strain them out. Use a hop sock! Or even better..... hop flowers or plugs and use a good old (steralised) kitchen strainer to remove them when you tip it in the fermenter once cooled.

The bitterness and hoppiness may have come from the hops staying in the beer right through the the keg. Make sure you rack and let it clear before kegging it. yeast and hops in the keg will spoil the flavour a bit.

As far as AG goes.......just use a good quality ale malt and mash at about 66.

get your selves a brewing software package and you can then use it to work out your bitterness, strength and colour if you want to tinker with the recipe..... as you will.

cheers


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## Supra-Jim

This turned out to be a very tasty beer. I didn't find to be overly close to the JSAA (side by side taste comparison), though the responsibility for that may be in my brewing efforts. But for my taste i preferred this recipe over the original/commerical product.


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## Tony

Well, it is hard to get really close to an origional beer.

That recipe was to get close, then build on it to fine tune it

cheers


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## FarsideOfCrazy

Hi Tony and all, 

I made this the other day (it's sittng in the secondary as i type). I had 2 questions.

Firstly after steeping the grain I didn't boil it I just straind through a cheese cloth and then disolved the remainder of the LME. Is this a major problem?

And secondly upon taking the OG reading it was 1060, way higher than what the report said. So I just topped it up with another 3 litres of water which then brought it down to 1052, and yes I already have checked the markings on the fermenter. I know this isn't a big problem but I was just wanting to know why would the OG be so different to the report, just to satisfy my curiosity.

john.


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## Supra-Jim

Tony said:


> Well, it is hard to get really close to an origional beer.
> 
> That recipe was to get close, then build on it to fine tune it
> 
> cheers



Very true, and i'm not critisizing the recipe, as said i found this to be a more enjoyable beer than the commercial version.


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## big78sam

Tony said:


> strain the liquid from the little pot with your crystal ect in it into the big pot with the hops, just use a fine kitchen strainer to do this and dont go rinsing it with boiling water to get more colour from it, all you will get is tannins......... yuck.
> 
> Now disolve the other tin of coopers liquid extract in the big pot and cool it down in the laundry sink, bath tub, where ever.
> 
> tip it in the firmenter when cool strain out the hops if you can, and top it up with cold water to 23 liters.




I gave Tony's recipe a lash today. No major problems. However I have a question. The recipe calls for steeping the grains then adding the resultant liquid into the boiled extract/hops, then into the fermenter. 

I've read in other posts that the liquid that results from steeping should be boiled as there is a chance of bacteria from the grains. How likely is this? The grains were steeped for 30-45 minutes at 70 odd degrees but never got to boiling.

I didn't think of this until too late and didn't want to reboil after adding the steeped grain water as I was worried boiling the hops for longer would increase the bitterness too much. For future reference, how much bitterness would an extra 10 minutes boiling make?


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## buttersd70

Boiling the liquor from steeping grain is pretty critical. If you're concerned about extending the boil time with the hops, then don't....just boil the steeping liquor seperately.


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## davewaldo

You may have pasturised the liquid though... if you added the liquor soon after the boil finished and it stayed at a high temp for say 10-20 mins it would have killed everything.

I'm sure the brew will be fine


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## caleb

Mmmm, I've set out a few times to make a JSAA style, as it's one of my favorites. I've ended up with several really nice beers, but none have actually been the same as the James Squire.

Recently I went down the path of upping the crystal malt and willamette hops, as those were two ingredients I knew they used and assumed contributed the most. I ended up using 500g of crystal and 60g of willamette (20g @10, 20g @ flameout, 20g dry to primary).

What I found was that 500g crystal is too much for a 22l batch, and starts to taste a bit astringent and coarse.

Willamette was good but not overwhelming. However, this batch was bittered with 40g Halltertau (8%) so ended up being quite bitter. A really nice English Bitter style beer (wife said it was best ever) but actually nothing like JS... totally lacked the nutty, malty sweetness.

SO... what grain would you use to get that nutty, sweet flavor the JSAA has? "Carapils" has been mentioned here, but may be just a name for something made specially for Malt Shovel brewery...

I usually buy malt from Country Brewer. I've used their "Caramalt" in the past, and also recently got some "Munich" which has a really nice sweet biscuit like taste.

Finally, "Northdown" has been mentioned as a second late addition hop to consider. Can anyone confirm this?


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## buttersd70

Caleb said:


> SO... what grain would you use to get that nutty, sweet flavor the JSAA has? "Carapils" has been mentioned here, but may be just a name for something made specially for Malt Shovel brewery...
> 
> I usually buy malt from Country Brewer. I've used their "Caramalt" in the past, and also recently got some "Munich" which has a really nice sweet biscuit like taste.


carapils is a type of grain aka carafoam aka dextrin malt. Its not a proprietary product. A full description of it as posted by Ross on the first page of this thread.
The crystal sweetness is best balanced with another grain that lends the dry note to it. Tony's recipe achieves this with a small chocolate addition, and has his recipe in the earlier part of this thread....


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## caleb

buttersd70 said:


> The crystal sweetness is best balanced with another grain that lends the dry note to it. Tony's recipe achieves this with a small chocolate addition, and has his recipe in the earlier part of this thread....



I've done a brew which used crystal, caramalt and chocolate on a base of light liquid malt extract, and it was delicious. One of the nicest, but I wouldn't have said it was actually much like James Squire AA. (Except for the color).

But hey, I've decided that this year I'll stop trying to copy other beers or stick to certain well known styles, and just come up with my own stuff. B)


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## shellnaf

Hi, would 2.5kg of dme work instead of 3kg lme??

Thanks
Nathan


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## Pennywise

shellnaf said:


> Hi, would 2.5kg of dme work instead of 3kg lme??
> 
> Thanks
> Nathan




Yeah thats about right, but just remember that some find all dry extract recipe's a bit ordinary, personally I have no problem with them


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## shellnaf

Thanks, I'm only goin with the dry as I have it in stock, and seeing as its gonna be too hot to do anything outside I thought I might as well make beer.

Nathan


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## under

Sounds like this receipe is another I will be adding to my to do list.


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## under

Ok. Got the Willamette hops. Mine are 4.8%AA. Recipe calls for 4.3%AA. 

Should I drop the amounts to say 35g and 15g or is that too low?

From my calcs, its give me a 22.5 IBU. Recipe states 22.3

That right?


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## boingk

Yep, sounds about right there under. No worries at all.

A useful standpoint is that 10g of 10%AA hopping in a 60min boil will give approximately 10IBU. So 10g of ~5%AA in a 60min will give 5IBU...and so on.

Cheers - boingk


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## under

Yeah. Trying to properly work out beersmith. From what I entered in, the 35g and 15g seem to keep the IBU to the recipe. 

Thanks for your help mate.


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## under

This has just finished up in the fermenter. Came in at 1012. Tastes pretty nice out the test tube. Slightly watery, maybe its my morning breath . 

Dosent seem to bitter either, and omg, Willamette. What a nice hop.


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## mateostojic

Champs,

I made Tony's JSAA extract recipe a month or so ago and it was great, of course.
I was just wondering what would happen if instead of 3kg of light lme i used 3kg of amber lme or maybe half and half.

I am pretty keen to give this a crack unless someone can give me a good reason not to.

Cheers


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## hsv_069

mateOstojic said:


> Champs,
> 
> I made Tony's JSAA extract recipe a month or so ago and it was great, of course.
> I was just wondering what would happen if instead of 3kg of light lme i used 3kg of amber lme or maybe half and half.
> 
> I am pretty keen to give this a crack unless someone can give me a good reason not to.
> 
> Cheers



I did Tony's recipe the other day and its just about ready to keg. When buying my ingredients I thought exactly the same thing. It will be interesting to see some replies


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## MarkBastard

It'll probably work okay but it's not needed because that's why the crystal and choc is for.


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## ivanhoe

When referring to these ingredients, are they steeping grains?

9.0 0.30 kg. TF Crystal UK 1.034 140
0.9 0.03 kg. TF Chocolate Malt UK 1.033 900


Say from this page are they the first and third one down? 

http://www.countrybrewer.com.au/category41_1.htm


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## davewaldo

Yes you can steep those two grains.... The craftbrewer site (see ad at top of page) has a good description of grains and also says which ones need mashing / steeping.

And yes you have the correct grains on that page you linked to.


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## mrmatt

Im going to give Tony's recipe a go today. 
Few questions Ive got are, the williamette that i have is only 3.2% and i have 50grams, I'm going to use 25grams of PoR to bitter (i also have some amarillo?)..but i dont know the percentage its not labeled. Also which yeast have people used i have safale US 05, that will ok wont it?
thanks Matt


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## ChefDave

Hi all,

I did this recipe the other night. After 5 days, still fermenting, currently at 1010 and still dropping. Tastes great out of the fermenter.

Just wanted to thank Tony for the recipe. This is my 5th brew and first extract. After some hits and misses with the kits, this was a far more enjoyable beer to actually brew, and the flavour so far is great.

So thanks again,

Dave


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## time01

goingto try Tony's recipe, anyone given it a go? got a review?

what temp. should it ferment at? and what temp should i pitch the yeast?

Timbo.


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## MarkBastard

time01 said:


> goingto try Tony's recipe, anyone given it a go? got a review?
> 
> what temp. should it ferment at? and what temp should i pitch the yeast?
> 
> Timbo.



It has heaps of good feedback.

Ferment at 18 degrees, pitch yeast anywhere between 18 and 25 degrees though get to 18 as soon after as possible.


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## mjp

had a JSAA today and decided to check for recipes, only to find it was back on top the K+E index again.-like the look of Tony's recipe , but know there should be 3 hops used(dont know what though). the main thing I wanted to ask was if anyone had recultured yeast from a JSAA(my bottle had a residue similar to a CSA-got me thinking)?


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## fawnroux

time01 said:


> goingto try Tony's recipe, anyone given it a go? got a review?
> 
> what temp. should it ferment at? and what temp should i pitch the yeast?
> 
> Timbo.



I can definitely vouch for this. It was the first extract recipe I did and it was great.


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## Midnight Brew

G-day about to have a crack at Tony's recipe using the williamette but is there any insight to what the other two hops might be and where to add them in the boil?

Cheers


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## mjp

Put Tony"s recipe down today, but like to do 25l batches so upped the crystal to 450g and the chock to 45 + used 400g ldme in a 5l boil for the hops(sorry-100g dex as well). upped the eary hop to 45g and the 5 min to 30.- also used a us-05 yeast as 04 was out of stock. Forgot to add that I had a pack of 100g caripils sitting in the kit so threw that in the steep as well.---F!?k broke another hydrometer so dont have an sg-will leave for 10 days at 18c and check if I want more hops or not. let you know how it goes. also dont try reculturing jsaa yeast(as per my earlier query) not a good result!!!!!. As for Midnight Brewers hop question, I was hoping some of the more experianced brewers would throw up whats in the original (not quantities and boil time) just as something to play with-any takers?


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## srm

A question for Tony - six years on would you do anything different to your JSAA recipe ?


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## Tony

Hmmmmm

For an extract brew i would probably use Dark Crytstal (240 ebc) and half the amount of Choc Malt but using Pale Choc malt

Replacing the late hops with Challenger would be a nice touch also.

And i would ferment it with Wyeast 1272 :icon_drool2:

Its hard to get these beers spot on from a home brew prospective, because there is a good chance the brewery has a dark malt custon kilned for the beer that cant be purchased by us. I am fairly sure LN do this for tooheys old and use just one dark malt. We as brewers have to try and find a mix of whats available to us to match its profile.

Best bet is to make it, taste it and adjust to suit your taste buds for next time!

Cheers


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