# Cascade



## Stuwort (29/1/13)

G'day all. I have put together a K&B blonde and am just wondering if any one has had any success with Cascade and am I going the right way about using Cascade? Here is my recipe:

1 x Coopers Lager
500g Honey (Wescobee red check)
500g LDME
30g Cascade pellets

I have put 300g of LDME in 3L of water, brought to the boil and added 30g of Cascade for 7 min and then turned off, added the honey, stirred and let sit for 5 min. This was starined before being put in the fermenter and I added 5g of the strained cascade to the fermenter as an experiment.

Cheers

Stu


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## slash22000 (29/1/13)

You can never really go wrong with Cascade when it comes to an hoppy American style beer. It's one of the staples of the industry.

All told, you're not going to get a lot of hop flavour/aroma from a 3L boil. Your method is correct but the volumes are what is going to decrease the effectiveness. Out of curiosity, why 7 minutes? That's an oddly specific time.

If you can get your hands on some more Cascade, 20 - 40 grams thrown into the fermentor after active fermentation and left idle for ~1 week will give you a nice Cascade aroma. Sounds like a tasty brew regardless!


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## Amber Fluid (30/1/13)

slash22000 said:


> All told, you're not going to get a lot of hop flavour/aroma from a 3L boil.


Although for other reasons it is better to do 6-10L boil, I understand, but why won't you get a lot of flavour/aroma from 3L boil?...


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## Stuwort (30/1/13)

slash22000 said:


> You can never really go wrong with Cascade when it comes to an hoppy American style beer. It's one of the staples of the industry.
> 
> All told, you're not going to get a lot of hop flavour/aroma from a 3L boil. Your method is correct but the volumes are what is going to decrease the effectiveness. Out of curiosity, why 7 minutes? That's an oddly specific time.
> 
> If you can get your hands on some more Cascade, 20 - 40 grams thrown into the fermentor after active fermentation and left idle for ~1 week will give you a nice Cascade aroma. Sounds like a tasty brew regardless!


The boil was planned as a ten minute boil, but my young bloke started to howl in is cot, so I went with his call.


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## Batz (30/1/13)

I think it great you had a go at this, and with Cascade, as said above you can't go wrong. My guess is your going to love this, and all grain is not that fair off is it?


Batz


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## Blitzer (30/1/13)

Amber Fluid said:


> Although for other reasons it is better to do 6-10L boil, I understand, but why won't you get a lot of flavour/aroma from 3L boil?...


yes, what's the issue with flavour/aroma from a 3litre boil?


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## Stuwort (30/1/13)

Batz said:


> I think it great you had a go at this, and with Cascade, as said above you can't go wrong. My guess is your going to love this, and all grain is not that fair off is it?
> 
> 
> Batz


Already pricing up urns.


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## slash22000 (30/1/13)

Isn't that half the reason to do a full volume boil? Hop utilisation? That's what I'd always heard. Why bother doing a full boil if it'll have the same result as a partial boil?


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## NewtownClown (30/1/13)

Hop utilisation refers to the *isomerisation* of the Alpha Acids for bittering. A small boil is fine for extracting aroma...

7 minutes is ideal for Aroma as per the oft posted chart below


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## carniebrew (30/1/13)

If anything you're going to get more aroma/flavour from only a short boil....longer boil will boil off the flavours/aromas and impart bitterness. Cascade is brilliant as a flavour/aroma hop in my opinion...I can't get enough of the stuff. Bought some from Dave @ Greensborough last week and spent half the drive home just smelling them through the bag.

A buddy of mine put down a Pale Ale kit brew a couple of weeks ago using Cascade in a tea bag type of arrangement from his local HBS. The instructions told him to do a short boil with them (around 10 mins I think), then put the boil and the tea bag into the FV. Sounds exactly like what you've done Stuwort so yep, you're doing it the right way.


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## slash22000 (30/1/13)

Ah. Right. That's my mistake. So a full volume boil makes no difference at all when it comes to hop flavour/aroma, only bitterness levels?


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## Blitzer (30/1/13)

So based on the below chart I should throw as much hops as possible in @ 20 minutes for Flavour? 

It's showing only a 20% extraction of Flavour @ 10 minutes... Seems contrary to what people have been saying.



NewtownClown said:


> Hop utilisation refers to the *isomerisation* of the Alpha Acids for bittering. A small boil is fine for extracting aroma...
> 
> 7 minutes is ideal for Aroma as per the oft posted chart below


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## Amber Fluid (30/1/13)

slash22000 said:


> Ah. Right. That's my mistake. So a full volume boil makes no difference at all when it comes to hop flavour/aroma, only bitterness levels?



I guess you could say that. However, it has more to do with utilisation of the hops. I guess the more hop isomerisation of the alpha acids will impact a bit on the level of bitterness. However, boiling in 3L of water/wort wont impact on the flavour/aroma. Well, not that I know of anyway. Therefore, the medium volume is irrelevant in this case.


and now to throw a spanner in the works.... you will get even more hop utilisation by boiling in water than you will in wort.


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## felten (30/1/13)

That chart is about as accurate as using an airlock for measuring your gravity.

It's a very broad and generalised take on how to time your hop additions, I wouldn't read it as gospel.


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## bum (30/1/13)

Amber Fluid said:


> you will get even more hop utilisation by boiling in water than you will in wort


It is worth remembering that this is correct for bitterness only. Everything else goes up the shit.


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## NewtownClown (30/1/13)

I should have also said this , like all methods of calculating utlilisation (Rager, Tinseth) are approximates. As close as current research can give us...

Also, different beers and different size boils give slightly different results. too.

Going by that chart, 10 mins gives off a trade off of less aroma for a little flavour. Most 10 min additions have also have later earlier additions, too. So a 30 min add. will also add to the flavour as well as assisting in adding to the bittering.
Brewers use the calculations and charts such as the simplified one I posted to determine to how to get the best value out of their hops....

I also add at 10 mins for flavour because I know that it takes at least another 10 mins for the wort to get below 80C whilst the convection currents cease, whirlpool and chill. In effect - the hops have been in for 20 mins...


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## Amber Fluid (30/1/13)

Blitzer said:


> So based on the below chart I should throw as much hops as possible in @ 20 minutes for Flavour?
> 
> It's showing only a 20% extraction of Flavour @ 10 minutes... Seems contrary to what people have been saying.


I don't think it is contrary to what people have been saying.... I have noticed that usually people's recipes say when they had their addition and not that it is the optimal time to use them but it is the time that works to produce the recipe they want. I don't really see anywhere someone says it HAS to be at 10 minutes to achieve optimal flavouring.


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## Blitzer (30/1/13)

Okay, just want to clarify. Nowhere have I read someone say 10 minutes is the time to add for flavouring. 
Just heard people say "later additions for aroma/flavour are better".. The chart shows 20 minutes which is almost mid-boil.

Though I think the questions was hit on the head when someone said even if added @ 10 minutes it will still be going for 20 minutes unless you cool automatically after boil is finished.


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## slash22000 (30/1/13)

Do people not normally brew with a hop bag that could be removed? Why do hops have to "stay" in the boil?

My understanding of how brewing works has been turned on its head by this thread.  Partial boils are just as good as full boils, hops "stay" in the boil for longer than you're boiling ...


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## carniebrew (30/1/13)

I don't, I add my hops directly into the boil, then strain them out (mostly) as I pour into the fermenter.


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## bum (30/1/13)

slash22000 said:


> Do people not normally brew with a hop bag that could be removed? Why do hops have to "stay" in the boil?


It is not uncommon but it is probably statistically more prevalent that hops go in commando-style - especially for full volume brewing methods (I'd imagine smaller batch brewers do what they can to limit trub losses as much as possible).

It should be noted (and this is a _very_ common misconception I'm adderssing here) that taking the hops out does not effect the timeline discussed here (not that the graph above is completely accurate in all cases, more of an illustrative guide for the rough idea). Temperature/time will continue to work on the acids/oils extracted from the hops even though the hops are no longer there. Removing the hops does have an effect in that no extra acids/oils are able to be extracted but to think that these are locked in when the hops are removed is false.



slash22000 said:


> Partial boils are just as good as full boils


Not exactly - depends how "partial". I think you are correct in that a 3L boil is not as good as, say, as 10L boil. That is not to say that a 3L boil won't improve a beer, of course.



slash22000 said:


> hops "stay" in the boil for longer than you're boiling ...


As mentioned above, they do for many people but even when they don't temp/time remain an issue.

As a side-note, the phrase "partial boil" has been used quite a bit lately and I hope it doesn't catch on. Things will get a bit confusing when people are asking for advice on actual partials.

[EDIT: so many typos!]


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## slash22000 (30/1/13)

Well there you go. I've learned a tonne of new brewing things today that I didn't know yesterday. As soon as I think I have a handle on things .. :huh: Cheers all!


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## carniebrew (30/1/13)

slash22000 said:


> Well there you go. I've learned a tonne of new brewing things today that I didn't know yesterday. As soon as I think I have a handle on things .. :huh: Cheers all!


Despite some of our best attempts to prove otherwise...that's kind of what this place is meant to be all about eh?


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## Stuwort (2/2/13)

Stuwort said:


> G'day all. I have put together a K&B blonde and am just wondering if any one has had any success with Cascade and am I going the right way about using Cascade? Here is my recipe:
> 
> 1 x Coopers Lager
> 500g Honey (Wescobee red check)
> ...


I also failed to mention that I used US05, brewing at 17c and that at day 11, there is still quite a thick krausen/top layer of yeast. Am I correct in assuming this is taking this long to ferment due to the honey? I have given the side of the FV a few whacks with my mixing spoon and have had some fallout, but the wort is now ultra cloudy. My plan is to wait until day 14, cc to 1c for 2 days and bring back up to 17c before bottling.


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## carniebrew (2/2/13)

Stuwort said:


> I also failed to mention that I used US05, brewing at 17c and that at day 11, there is still quite a thick krausen/top layer of yeast. Am I correct in assuming this is taking this long to ferment due to the honey? I have given the side of the FV a few whacks with my mixing spoon and have had some fallout, but the wort is now ultra cloudy. My plan is to wait until day 14, cc to 1c for 2 days and bring back up to 17c before bottling.


Don't assume that just because you still have krausen that fermentation is still happening. It *might *be, but your hydrometer is the absolute proof. If your brew is at the expected final gravity, and has stayed there for a few days, she's done, krausen or not.

I've used golden syrup in brews before and it hasn't extended the fermentation time. All my brews with US-05 at 18 degrees have been at final gravity in 7-8 days...but I always leave them be for 2 weeks.


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## Nick JD (2/2/13)

US05 often finishes with a huge, thick krausen still on top.


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## carniebrew (2/2/13)

NewtownClown said:


> Hop utilisation refers to the *isomerisation* of the Alpha Acids for bittering. A small boil is fine for extracting aroma...
> 
> 7 minutes is ideal for Aroma as per the oft posted chart below


This chart, while taking it as a rough guide only, does make the concept of dry hopping interesting...or even flameout additions for that matter. The chart suggests that *not *boiling hops at all will result in only 10% (or less) of their flavour/aroma being infused into the beer.

I have noticed as my beers age the early up-front big hop flavours and aromas continue to disappear...a lot more so than the bitterness subsiding from the 60 minute addition(s). I'm curious to know how much of this is because of flameout additions and dry hopping....they seem to give an early impression of having a big effect on the beer, but weeks later you can hardly find them in the bottle.

I haven't done a lot of brews with 20 minute additions, and certainly none with 7...but a few with 5 and 10 that would be pretty close anyway (chart shows ~90% for aroma at those times). So I'll adjust a few of my upcoming recipes to include 20 minute additions of hops I'm looking to get flavour from. I'm still having great success with Warrior as my bittering addition in my hoppy beers so won't change that any time soon.

I had a Fat Yak on tap at the pub last week and I continue to be impressed by the amount of hop flavour and aroma there is in that beer. I would love to know how old the keg I'm drinking it from at the pub would be.


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## Nick JD (2/2/13)

That is a pictorial illustration of the extreme basics of hopping beer, and not a series of lines of connected data points deduced through measurement.


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## carniebrew (2/2/13)

Fair call...I guess the question is...if you're doing 60, 10 and flameout additions...are you missing an opportunity to impart the maximum available flavour of your desired hop? i.e. if I'm after a pale ale with as big a flavour hit of cascade as I can get, would adding it at 20 minutes (along with other additions) be the best strategy? And can practical examples disprove the suggestion that dry hopping won't impart more than (a very rough) 10% of the hop's flavour in your brew?

I guess what I'm looking for is someone to say they did a number of brews with say 10 and 5 minute additions of their desired flavour hop...and then another time did 10 and 20 minute additions of a similar amount and found it gave more long lasting hop flavour.

I'll find out for myself soon enough, my last pale ale had only 60m, 5m and flameout additions (I can't remember why, seems very conservative now I think about it). Next time I'll try 60, 20m, 10m and 5m to compare.


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## brentice (6/2/13)

im a big fan of cascade hops


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## bum (6/2/13)

carniebrew said:


> my last pale ale had only 60m, 5m and flameout additions (I can't remember why, seems very conservative now I think about it).


Assuming you got the same IBU, it could be argued that spreading the additions out over time is more conservative. For same IBU, shifting the hop additions later will give bigger hop presence. My experience is that it fades faster though. Happy to accept that it might be a problem with no-chill or my process in general if this goes against the general consensus.


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