# Hop Sockers can't no-chill?



## slcmorro (24/7/14)

So I did a no chill brew last night, and it occurred to me... my last few no-chills were less bitter than I'd intended, by a decent margin.

I then realised that I'd been using a hop sock each time, so I'm guessing that by removing the hop pellets from the hot wort that goes into the no-chill cube, further acid extraction isn't taking place when it should. Therefore, when using a hop sock I'd be more inclined to *not* use the no-chill function/calculation in brewing software.

Makes sense to me. Can anyone here refute this claim?


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## mje1980 (24/7/14)

Dunno , but I've heard some claim that using a hop sock stops the hops from rolling around in the boil, giving less bitterness. 

Can always add more hops?

Add some to the cube?. Kind of defeats the purpose of a hop sock though.

I've got one and I no chill. I really only use it in beers where I'm adding heaps of hops. I normally let the hops sit in the wort for a good 15 mins after flameout, just to get a little bit more isomerisation or whatever, then lift it up, let it drain, then cube.

Don't do many really hoppy beers anymore though so no recent beers to compare.


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## sp0rk (24/7/14)

I only ever use my hop sock with leaf hops or plugs (evil things), pellets settle out nicely during whirlpool for me
Plus I cube hop a lot...


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## Batz (24/7/14)

There has been a lot of discussion here as to hops and hop socks and the loss of flavour.

I have never found a hop sock to affect the bitterness levels but only falvour and aroma. This I believe is because the hop sock becomes blocked and the flow of wort around the hops is decreased, I now add my 60min additions and remove the sock at 30mins, empty it and hose it clean. Then I replace it and carry on with the rest of my additions. 
All bitterness has been done and dusted after 30min.
When no chilling cube hopping is also a great idea, although this will not increase your bitterness level.

I think an easy fix for you is to just increase your first additions.

Batz


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## Black Devil Dog (24/7/14)

Hops lose AA % over time, unless you are adjusting for that, it will also contribute to less bitterness.


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## mattlea266 (24/7/14)

For big hop additions like ipa I will be using a bag as my elements get too much crud build up. Otherwise i am a throw er in era. I like the idea of the wert contact. Cant recall any major difference from when I use to bag my hops to now when just chucking them in which I find easier. Recipe didnt change. But who knows, maybe subtle difference. 

Relating to cube hopping I found an increase in my bitterness. Did a double batch. One cube hopped and one dry hopped like I normally do. Lately been doing about 10min settle and 10min whirlpool then cubes into my pool. Deffinately more bitterness in cube hopped. Ive only done this once so obviously not definitive. I will see how it settles after a month.


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## RelaxedBrewer (24/7/14)

Batz said:


> All bitterness has been done and dusted after 30min.
> When no chilling cube hopping is also a great idea, although this will not increase your bitterness level.


?????

Cube hopping will definitely increase your bitterness levels. I make APAs and AIPAs with almost all my hops in the cube.

Also you still get alpha isomerisation happening after 30 min. But your alpha acids may have all dissolved into the wort by this time and removing the actual hops might not matter.


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## Batz (24/7/14)

RelaxedBrewer said:


> Also you still get alpha isomerisation happening after 30 min. But your alpha acids may have all dissolved into the wort by this time and removing the actual hops might not matter.


I think that is what I was saying. 



> Cube hopping will definitely increase your bitterness levels. I make APAs and AIPAs with almost all my hops in the cube.


When I have brewed APA's with only cube hops I found them way out of balance, lacking bitterness big time.

It's all a matter of personal taste I suppose.

Batz


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## Liam_snorkel (24/7/14)

your results may vary but I tend to get better aroma & flavour, and far less bitterness cube-hopping when using flowers as opposed to pellets. Before transferring to the fermenter I give the cube a good ol' shake to bash the flowers around - which may release some trapped lupulin into the beer (at least that's my thinking behind it).


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## Bribie G (24/7/14)

Hop socks can restrict the movement of hops, including pellets. I found that on hoisting a hop sock at the end of boil, and sampling a spoonful of the drippings, there was heaps of bitterness left in the sock.

On the other hand, putting the hops in commando style, with high volume hops such as EKG or Saaz, the element could end up getting swamped and the safety cut out.

A good compromise is to get a cheapy gain bag that fits right over the opening of the boiler / urn and make a swimming pool for the hops, flower or pellet. They get a good boil and release all their goodness.

Bags from a sponsor.


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## verysupple (24/7/14)

Batz said:


> <snip>
> All bitterness has been done and dusted after 30min.
> <snip>


I wasn't so sure about this so I quickly generated a couple of plots.

The following are plots of IBU as a function of boil time using the Rager and Tinseth models for 20 L of 1.050 wort and boiling 20 g of 5 % AA hops.

I know these are only models, but they probably aren't _both_ miles away from the truth. Apparently when only boiling for a total of 60 min there is still a fair amount of bitterness to be extracted after in the last 30 min.


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## Batz (24/7/14)

Nice little graphs, I was talking of 14 years brewing experience.

I'm quite possibly wrong according to some literature or mathematical equations. I tend to go by my tastes. :lol: 

Batz .


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## verysupple (24/7/14)

RelaxedBrewer said:


> ?????
> 
> Cube hopping will definitely increase your bitterness levels. I make APAs and AIPAs with almost all my hops in the cube.
> 
> Also you still get alpha isomerisation happening after 30 min. But your alpha acids may have all dissolved into the wort by this time and removing the actual hops might not matter.


I doubt this is the case due to the poor solubility of alpha-acids in relatively neutral (pH 5 - 5.5) liquid. It's the poor solubility that leads to such poor alpha-acid utilisation in brewing - rarely greater than 30 % when using actual hops rather than hop extracts. The literature seems to suggest it's the limited solubility of alpha-acids that determines the amount of isomerised alpha-acids in solution (IBUs). This in turn suggests that once the acids are extracted they isomerise quite quickly.




Batz said:


> Nice little graphs, I was talking of 14 years brewing experience.
> 
> I'm quite possibly wrong according to some literature or mathematical equations. I tend to go by my tastes. :lol:
> 
> Batz .


Your tastes probably aren't lying. I mean, how sensitive are we to these things? The difference might be measureable but just not large enough to be detected in sensory tests. Or maybe it would be detectable in side-by-side test but not otherwise. Who knows?


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## manticle (24/7/14)

Of course hop sockers can no-chill. IBU calcs in software are theoretical anyway - ticking a box adds extra theoreticals. You need to adjust recipes according to palate and preference unless you are using spectroscopy to measure results.

I've never concerned myself with trying to adjust my hop additions based on NC and I've only ever used hop socks for flowers (to stop them clogging taps). Results suit my palate. Yours may differ but the end point is that you get the results you want or change your process until you do. Tick box, don't tick box - that's just a single tool to help estimate where you think you are and where you'd like to be.


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## Bribie G (24/7/14)

Spectrometer bulk buy?


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## Mardoo (24/7/14)

Bribie G said:


> Spectrometer bulk buy?
> 
> 
> 
> spectro.jpg


Ooo yes please!


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## verysupple (24/7/14)

Bribie G said:


> Spectrometer bulk buy?
> 
> 
> 
> spectro.jpg


Ha! That's old school. Also, I'm not sure what type of spectrometer that is, but it's not a spectrophotometer which is what's used for IBU measurements.

EDIT: Actually, it looks like it might be an old mass spectrometer.


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## Bribie G (24/7/14)

It's a James Bond world domination spectrometer. Hence the beehive hairdo on the chick.


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## Dave70 (24/7/14)

Since we're talking hops in socks, how about hop socking in the keg in place of dry hopping in the secondary?
My current IPL calls for 10 days of dry hopping in the secondary, but I like to keep the vessel to vessel exchanges to a minimum. The idea was to weight the bag with a couple of marbles and dangle it in for the brew for the 10, remove, chill, fine, gas and consume.

Only thinking the confines of a sock may not be as efficient at spreading the goodness as throwing a loose handful into the beer.


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## Liam_snorkel (24/7/14)

I do that all the time. sans marble. The hops float so I just fish them out with a pair of sanitised tongs if the beer starts getting grassy, otherwise I leave the feckers in there. Some people use marbles, & floss tied to the PRV to fish it out.


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## Bribie G (24/7/14)

When Fourstar used to post :unsure: :unsure: he brought me back a large one of these from Vietnam,





half - stuff that with hops (they swell) and drop in. (ed: into keg). Awesome with TTL and Styrians.

Half sized versions available from some kitchen shops. Ross used to stock them but his model used to rust at the clamps so he withdrew them, but worth a try if you can find some around.


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## Dave70 (24/7/14)

Then I to shall do it.

Carefully. There's few thing worse than hop debris getting into the dip tube / ball lock / beer tap.


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## NealK (24/7/14)

I use a large hop sock (BIAB bag my wife made for the 19l BigW pot) and no chill. I don't make too many very bitter beers but find a small addition of calcium sulphate can really increase the perceived bitterness when I need it.
My 2c


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (24/7/14)

I grabbed some 'tea bag' outers from the T2 shop or online (but fragrance and everything free).

Popped some dry hop hoppage in there and under the dip tube in the keg prior to beer being transferred to keg.

That makes up for it.

As for Cube Hopping, mine go in commando.


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## Bribie G (24/7/14)

That's the other advantage of the metal teaball, it snugs up next to the bottom of the dip tube.

If you ease it into the keg when full, it gently floats to bottom without opening up.


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## slcmorro (30/7/14)

Bribie G said:


> it gently floats to bottom


Don't you mean sinks to the bottom?


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