# Improving on my first saison



## shacked (24/1/16)

I just force carbed my first attempt at a Saison and while it's a nice drop I'm keen to make it a little more citrusy and perhaps a little less clean. It's more like a belgian pale ale.

For the grist I used:

60% Pils
25.5% Rye
8.5% Dextrose
4% Wheat
~2% Caramunich I

I did a 10m rest at 50C, and then a 90m rest at 64C before mashing out at 76C for 10.

90m boil with 50g of Saaz (3% AA) at 60, 20g of Hallertau Mit (2.9% AA) at 45 and 20g of Hallertau Mit at flameout. Added whirfloc and WL yeast nutrient to the boil. Chilled and siphoned to a fermenter.

OG 1.050 and IBU was just under 25. I pitched a stepped up 800ml starter of yeast bay saison 1.

Fermentation started at 22C and stepped up to 27C by 1 degree per day. I then held it at 27C for a further 10 days before crashing for 48 hours and force carbing. FG (adjusted to 18C) was 1.006 and this was flat for the last 8 or 9 days.

The end result is a nice beer that is perhaps too clean and not dry enough. It is peppery maybe from the yeast and the rye. The rye gives it a thick mouthfeel that I like but maybe it's a bit too much for this style. There are limited citrus notes which I have liked in commercial examples.

Next time I was thinking of omitting (or reducing to ~10%) the rye from the grist and keeping a similar hop schedule. I might swap the yeast for something more citrusy or on the funky side.

Any other ideas or advice would be great!


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## manticle (24/1/16)

Knock the rye right out and go very simple grist.
I like hall mitt for lemon character or tettnanger and/or styrians for orange or mandarin. Saisons can be well hopped with good bitterness and some late hops if desired - just avoid us hops and iipa levels unless you're specifically shooting for saison ipa blend.

Keep the grist super simple - pale and wheat only.
Play around with different yeasts. I like french saison 3711 but they all have different character.


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## Batz (24/1/16)

manticle said:


> Knock the rye right out and go very simple grist.
> I like hall mitt for lemon character or tettnanger and/or styrians for orange or mandarin. Saisons can be well hopped with good bitterness and some late hops if desired - just avoid us hops and iipa levels unless you're specifically shooting for saison ipa blend.
> 
> Keep the grist super simple - pale and wheat only.
> Play around with different yeasts. I like french saison 3711 but they all have different character.


Agree, the yeast is what Saisons are all about, I like w3711 and w 3726. I don't think the Rye would work for me.
My hop of choice for my Saisions are Hallertau Mittelfruh.
Let me know if you would like to see my grain bill, happy to help.


Batz


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## shacked (24/1/16)

Batz said:


> Agree, the yeast is what Saisons are all about, I like w3711 and w 3726. I don't think the Rye would work for me.
> My hop of choice for my Saisions are Hallertau Mittelfruh.
> Let me know if you would like to see my grain bill, happy to help.
> 
> ...


Hey mate, yes please send me your grain bill. Any advice on the mash schedule?


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## Bridges (24/1/16)

I've had great results fromWLP566 and like others have suggested no rye. Agree with Manticle for the grist, my saison is pilsner, wheat and just a touch of acidulated malt. 
Saaz, EKG and Tettnanger hops of choice, never made one I haven't enjoyed.


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## indica86 (24/1/16)

Wyeast Biere De Garge has lovely tangerine tones...


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## Hpal (24/1/16)

I've got a simple Saison which is great, No-Chill and using Belle-saison yeast which I think is excellent.
81% pils
15% wheat
4% carapils

Mash 64 deg
Northern Brewer at 40 mins to 18 IBU
Hallertau Mit 0.46 g/L at flameout

Ferment 25 deg

OG 1.043
FG 1.003

Nice recipe, I keep making it again and again. Use whatever European hops you have but keep them subtle and let the yeast make the beer.


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## CmdrRyekr (24/1/16)

indica86 said:


> Wyeast Biere De Garge has lovely tangerine tones...


Which also then makes the beer a Biere De Garde, not a Saison


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## Batz (24/1/16)

Bridges said:


> . Agree with Manticle for the grist, my saison is pilsner, wheat and just a touch of acidulated malt.


You have it right there!


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## shacked (24/1/16)

Bridges said:


> I've had great results fromWLP566 and like others have suggested no rye. Agree with Manticle for the grist, my saison is pilsner, wheat and just a touch of acidulated malt.
> Saaz, EKG and Tettnanger hops of choice, never made one I haven't enjoyed.


Thanks! 

Thoughts on simple sugar? I got the idea from the brewing with style podcast on saison. Jamil recommends about 10% simple sugar to get the dryness


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## shacked (24/1/16)

Hpal said:


> I've got a simple Saison which is great, No-Chill and using Belle-saison yeast which I think is excellent.
> 81% pils
> 15% wheat
> 4% carapils
> ...


I think a FG of 1.003 would help with the dry finish I'm after.


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## Hpal (24/1/16)

Yeah, first time I did the recipe I mashed at 65 so I didn't dry it out too much and still got 1.003 with that yeast, it's dry and keeps you coming back for the next sip.


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## seamad (24/1/16)

Wyeast 3711 gets down pretty low, never had it finish above 1.005


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## manticle (24/1/16)

shacked said:


> Thanks!
> Thoughts on simple sugar? I got the idea from the brewing with style podcast on saison. Jamil recommends about 10% simple sugar to get the dryness


Add it if you want but to my mind there is no need. Mash 65 or below with 3711 and you'll struggle to get it finish above 1006.


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## Blind Dog (24/1/16)

Agree with the KISS approach to a Saison. 80% Pilsner malt, 20% wheat generally and sometimes a few % of Acidulated if I have it. Mash low and long for dryness seems to work better for me than adding sugar. Really like Belle Saison yeast, although I prefer it below 20.

Brewed 2 recently. 1 with a touch of Amarillo and 100g of Huell Melon in the cube, the other a sour mash with Nelson Sauvin, both belle saison at 19. Drinking really well.


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## indica86 (24/1/16)

CmdrRyekr said:


> Which also then makes the beer a Biere De Garde, not a Saison



Does it? Read the manufacturer's suggestion for beer styles appropriate for the yeast smart arse.


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## shacked (24/1/16)

manticle said:


> Add it if you want but to my mind there is no need. Mash 65 or below with 3711 and you'll struggle to get it finish above 1006.


How about a step mash?


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## manticle (24/1/16)

I step mash mine - 55 for 5, 62 for 15, 68 for 40, 72 for 10, 78 for 10.

Still hit sub 1006, no need for sugar.

Depends what you are after. I'd recommend the simplest of the simple and build/add from there for desired result.
Pils, wheat, single step dry mash, noble hop, saison yeast, ambient ferment. Easiest beer in the world.


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## shacked (24/1/16)

manticle said:


> I step mash mine - 55 for 5, 62 for 15, 68 for 40, 72 for 10, 78 for 10.
> 
> Still hit sub 1006, no need for sugar.
> 
> ...


Sounds good. I'll donate this keg to my bucks party and give it another crack with a simple grist


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## Batz (24/1/16)

Now you have made me go and have a Saison, this one with 3031-PC Saison-Brett


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## shacked (24/1/16)

Batz said:


> Now you have made me go and have a Saison, this one with 3031-PC Saison-Brett


I'm sorry / you're welcome!!


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## CmdrRyekr (24/1/16)

Batz said:


> Now you have made me go and have a Saison, this one with 3031-PC Saison-Brett


How did you find that blend? I have a smack pack of it that needs to get into a starter real soon, not sure when I'll be able to actually brew with it.


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## Batz (24/1/16)

CmdrRyekr said:


> How did you find that blend? I have a smack pack of it that needs to get into a starter real soon, not sure when I'll be able to actually brew with it.


It evolves over time, it's drinking very nicely but I'm not sure if I'll do another soon. Be careful the Brett eats up everything, alcohol content is way up there.


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## Charst (24/1/16)

Batz said:


> Agree, the yeast is what Saisons are all about, I like w3711 and w 3726. I don't think the Rye would work for me.
> My hop of choice for my Saisions are Hallertau Mittelfruh.
> Let me know if you would like to see my grain bill, happy to help.
> 
> ...


I brewed the rye saison in BYO's American saison article based on McKenzie's Saison Vautour, 20 something percent rye and it placed at VICbrew a few years ago. Obviously it depends on your taste preferences though.

I've since gone back to just using Wey Bo pils and 10% wheat.

To add the citrus notes you could also consider small amounts of a citrus rind you like. Indian coriander also has a lovely citrus note.
I cracked into a bottle of LaSirene saison last night and I'm now thinking they have a little dried Curacao orange in theirs.


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## Phoney (25/1/16)

Hmm not a lot of love for rye in saisons here. Why not? It works well. Though I usually only add up to 10%, I have brewed the fabled How Rye Am I (LINK) and it's a great beer.

I also like putting in up to an ounce of tropical fruit hop like Amarillo late in the boil (or cube hopping if i'm cubing). Pairs wonderfully with the peppery spiciness of saison yeasts.


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## manticle (25/1/16)

Nothing wrong with it per se - just if you're trying to make a simple saison, start as simple as possible. Build in extra elements as desired (such as rye, fruity hops, etc) in later versions.


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## shacked (13/2/16)

Ok I'm about to have a crack at version 2. OG 1.055

80% castle pils
19% wheat
~1% acid 

Main rest at 64 with a mash out at 76. 

Styrians at 60, 10 and cube for 25 - 30 IBU. Belle saison at ambient.


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## paulyman (13/2/16)

shacked said:


> ~1% acid


However the beer turns out, it should be a good trip.


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## shacked (13/2/16)

paulyman said:


> However the beer turns out, it should be a good trip.


Enough to make one well and truly acidulated.


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## Danscraftbeer (13/2/16)

shacked said:


> Ok I'm about to have a crack at version 2. OG 1.055
> 
> 80% castle pils
> 19% wheat
> ...


Sounds perfect. Or at least aiming for it. Its the fault of most home brewers with options to add too many options trying to get some special thing. This can be OK with things like IPA. For Saison to be good I feel its more about not messing with it. Less is better. That's a hard sell to excited new brewers.
I'd think a Can and Kilo simple brew with a good Saison yeast would be a good.


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## shacked (13/2/16)

Danscraftbeer said:


> Sounds perfect. Or at least aiming for it. Its the fault of most home brewers with options to add too many options trying to get some special thing. This can be OK with things like IPA. For Saison to be good I feel its more about not messing with it. Less is better. That's a hard sell to excited new brewers.
> I'd think a Can and Kilo simple brew with a good Saison yeast would be a good.


Thanks mate. I've been trying to make my brews more simple and focus on good process and ingredients. Most of my brews now are a base malt or two, a specialty malt or two and a hop or three!

The rye kick was really driven by a mate of mine trying to get through a bag of rye he 'inherited'.


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## Danscraftbeer (13/2/16)

Its the_ Craft _to make good of what you have. Saison was mastered on this principle with minimal ingredients. That's the gist I get of it anyhow.
So it turns out Low Carb beer typically.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (14/2/16)

Could be Belle Saison - I've brewed with it twice and it produces wonderful Belgian Pales, but not the dry quaffability of a saison.

I used it in Tassie at 20 degrees in my hws cupboard, and at Qld summer ambient the second time. Both produced good beers, though I prefer the hotter brewed beer considerably.

But, it was more Belgian Pale to Amber, not dry and farmy.

Infusion step mash (52 degrees, 63 degrees and a sparge) did wonders for lacing and head retention though.


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## indica86 (14/2/16)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> but not the dry quaffability of a saison.


Whenever I have used Belle it has been very dry, often finishing below 1005...


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## earle (14/2/16)

My first few saisons were with Belle Saison and while they were ok I wasn't 100% happy. I had been using a medium mash profile so switched to a dry mash and Wyeast French Saison yeast at 25C. Very happy with the results, though as I made 2 changes at once I can't be entirely sure which made the biggest improvement. Made one with a simple malt bill which I'm extremely happy with, then used some of the trub for a smoked rye saison. Kegged only yesterday but the sample I had was very promising. As above though I would recommend keeping your saison plain while you perfect it, then branch out if you want.


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## shacked (27/3/16)

My second attempt is carbed up now and is drinking great. It has a little bit of tartness and the Motueka flavor is great (got the hop schedule from Tony's recipe - no chill adjusted). 

I doughed in at 50C and ramped it to 64C for 60m and then mashed out at 77C for 10m. It finished at 1.005 but as LRG said, the belle saison didn't result in the bone dry beer that I was after. I really liked that quality in the two La Sierene (wild and super) examples I had a few weeks ago.

I think for the next batch, I'll switch out the yeast to a liquid version. At 25IBU I think it could have a bit more bitterness, so I might up the 60m addition to get me about 33IBU-ish total.

I didn't do any salt additions (I used some acidulated in the mash). What sort of water profile would a Saison suit?


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## shacked (27/3/16)

Also, I had about 3L of a dry hopped all Nelson Sauvin Kolsch (100% vienna) left in another keg and I added about 3L of the saison on top of that. That beer is a cracker!


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