# Im Curious about Barley Wine



## Chookers (2/12/15)

I have recently come across a recipe online, I am going to put the web site below, I hope I am allowed to do that.

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/lets-brew-wednesday-1972-whitbread-gold.html

I don't understand this recipe, as I have only just done my first small batch BIAB, but I would like to know what they mean by (6% invert No 1) and (13.6% Invert No2)

Can someone explain this recipe to me in layman's terms.. I have never had a Barley Wine before, but have been intrigued by them since my grandfather told me of his experience after enjoying one to many.

Any help deciphering this recipe would be appreciated and I hope I haven't broken any rules by putting this link in.

Cheers


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## danestead (3/12/15)

Sounds like invert sugar and the colour it is made to. Do a google for belgian candi syrup and it might make more sense.


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## Mardoo (3/12/15)

It is indeed invert sugar. If you dig around in SUABPerkins he has some explanations of invert sugar and bits of detail about the different ones. Numbers 1-3 are delineated by their colour as far as I can tell.

Regular supermarket sugar, sucrose, is made up of two other types of sugar, being glucose and fructose. In invert sugar the sucrose has been broken down into its components, glucose and fructose. It has a number of qualities that make it more attractive than sugar for some baking and brewing, among others.

Great website, with some astonishingly good recipes, my favourite being the 1914 Courage Imperial Stout.


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## Chookers (3/12/15)

thanks for the explanations guys.

Mardoo, I will check out that recipe..

Only thing about Barley Wines that kinda puts me off is the aging.. Im not patient enough. :-D


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## mckenry (3/12/15)

Chookers said:


> thanks for the explanations guys.
> 
> Mardoo, I will check out that recipe..
> 
> Only thing about Barley Wines that kinda puts me off is the aging.. Im not patient enough. :-D


Another thing is the morning after.


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## Chookers (3/12/15)

lol, are they really strong? I suppose that's why they call it barley wine and not beer, wine is usually 13% I think.


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## quadbox (3/12/15)

It's just a style of beer like any other. They're usually fairly alcoholic, but they're no more than, say, a russian imperial stout. or come to that a lot of the larger imperial IPAs out there...

Fullers golden pride, which is an english barleywine that springs to mind, is 8.5%. 

the BJCP style guidelines say between 8 and 12% for both english and american barleywines to give some perspective.

Personally as someone in the habit of sessioning imperial IPAs I dont find them all that strong at all


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## Chookers (6/12/15)

so if I made some and bottle carb it, will the carbonation hold until its of age?


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## manticle (6/12/15)

If capped and stored correctly it should. Avoid PET.

Also barley wine is usually pretty low in carbonation.


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## Ducatiboy stu (6/12/15)

Invert can be made easly at home


Stolen from Wikipeadia

Chemical reaction of the inversion[SIZE=small][edit][/SIZE]
The term 'inverted' is derived from the method of measuring the concentration of sugar syrup using a polarimeter. Plane polarized light, when passed through a sample of pure sucrose solution, is rotated to the right (optical rotation). As the solution is converted to a mixture of sucrose, fructose and glucose, the amount of rotation is reduced until (in a fully converted solution) the direction of rotation has changed (inverted) from right to left.

C12H22O11 (sucrose, Specific rotation = +66.5°) + H2O (water, no rotation) → C6H12O6 (glucose, Specific rotation = +52.7°) + C6H12O6 (fructose, Specific rotation = −92°)

net: +66.5° converts to −19.7° (half of the sum of the specific rotation of fructose and glucose)
Hydrolysis is a chemical reaction in which a molecule breaks down by the addition of water. Hydrolysis of sucrose yields glucose and fructose about 85%, the reaction temperature can be maintained at 50–60 °C (122–140 °F).

Inverting sugar[SIZE=small][edit][/SIZE]
Inverted sugar syrup can be easily made by adding water and roughly one gram of citric acid per kilogram of sugar.[5] (Lemon juice is 5% to 6% citric acid, with a negligible amount of ascorbic acid, so this would correspond to about 20 grams of lemon juice per kilogram of sugar.) Cream of tartar (one gram per kilogram)[5] or fresh lemon juice (10 milliliters per kilogram) may also be used.
The mixture is boiled to get to a temperature of 114 °C (237 °F),[5] and will convert enough of the sucrose to effectively prevent crystallization, without giving a noticeably sour taste. Invert sugar syrup may also be produced without the use of acids or enzymes by thermal means alone: two parts granulated sucrose and one part water simmered for five to seven minutes will convert a modest portion to invert sugar.


Basic formula
by weight
[note 1]

sucrose

100% 

water

50%

acid

0.1%


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## Charst (6/12/15)

manticle said:


> If capped and stored correctly it should. Avoid PET.
> 
> Also barley wine is usually pretty low in carbonation.


Hey mants why avoid the PET? 

Getting off topic but being VICbrew no longer allows the traditional and appropriate champagne bottle I was planning on bottling some Belgian dark strong in PET for comp.


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## Velu (6/12/15)

I think PET allows for a little more oxidation than glass, so aging in PET is generally not as good.
But your right, many comps/swaps don't allow glass, so it can be tough for some aged beers to enter in comps.


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## quadbox (6/12/15)

Charst said:


> Hey mants why avoid the PET?
> 
> Getting off topic but being VICbrew no longer allows the traditional and appropriate champagne bottle I was planning on bottling some Belgian dark strong in PET for comp.


PET bottles are porous over a long enough timeframe. It's not going to be an issue if you're drinking it the same year, but you'll start having issues with oxygenation and some loss of carbonation if you're long term aging something like a barleywine long term in them


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## Chookers (6/12/15)

Thanks for that wiki Ducatiboy stu I will try out some of those suggestions, and make myself a batch... Im starting to feel like making this Barley Wine the more I read.. Could I make it BIAB, I don't have a lot of room or equipment.


would using champagne bottles be suitable? they would have to be corked...

The carbing is low?

I read the opposite about carbonating Barley Wine, it was fairly high (I thought, and it didn't sound right). I'll have to go find that web site again..

My equipment

19L Stock Pot (BigW)
15L Stock Pot (Kmart)
Grain Bag
Candy Thermometre
15L Fermenter (I use this one most often)
30L Fermenter (rarely use)
Im thinking of getting some of these http://www.bunnings.com.au/our-range/outdoor-living/coolers-picnicware/portable-water-storage
10L or 20L if they made the 15L in the same shape I would get it for sure.


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## manticle (6/12/15)

Hi Charst - as per homicidal teddy.


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## Danscraftbeer (6/12/15)

Homicidal Teddybear said:


> PET bottles are porous over a long enough timeframe. It's not going to be an issue if you're drinking it the same year, but you'll start having issues with oxygenation and some loss of carbonation if you're long term aging something like a barleywine long term in them


That's disappointing to here, I didn't know that.

Chookers, you may want to use both your stock pots to boil down a larger pre boil wort. Its common for home brewers to undershoot their expected gravity target with heavy grain bills. You may need to sparge more to extract most the malt getting a larger pre boil volume. Long boil it down etc. This may vary a lot with brewers and different equipment.


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## Reman (6/12/15)

You can try re-iterated mashing to just use the one pot. This is how I'm planning to do 15l of 1.100 Barleywine in the 19l stock pot.

My current recipe is 3.48kg of 7EBC Ale malt in each mash with a 2 hour boil.

https://byo.com/bock/item/1317-reiterated-mashing-multiple-mashes-for-massive-brews


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## Chookers (6/12/15)

Danscraftdbeer, what would you suggest, 15L in the 19L pot and 10 in the 15L pot??

Thanks Reman, just checking out your link now

What sized L batch should I be aiming for? a half batch 11.5L ??..

I'm looking at getting different fermentation containers, my fermenters are the one from the coopers home brew kit, and the 15L is from a wine kit.. but their round shape is not easy to handle or fit in the fridge etc.. so I'm thinking the rectangular shapes would be more efficient.. with my current space and equipment I did consider the 20L jerry cans but I actually think the 10L would suit me better.. (I know they sound really small, and I'm not happy about it) if I could get 15L in that shape I would be very happy.

so whats opinions on this (adapted from the web site I put in my first post) 


3.84kg Pale Malt
0.418kg Flaked Maize (is this easy to get, what are some good alternatives?)
0.316kg Invert 1 (which I will attempt to make myself, I just hope I get the colour right)
0.720kg Invert 2 (same as above)
Hops

I am open to suggestions.. also would like opinions on Pellets Vs Flowers, and are there any Australian alternatives
37.45g Goldings 4.5%
11.20g Hallertauer 3.5%
12.45g Styrian Goldings 5.25%

I have the Safale S04 yeast.

this is exciting.


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## Danscraftbeer (7/12/15)

Haha, I haven't quite gone to the level of Barlywine. I think a 12lt brew is very sensible. For crazy heavy beer. I don't use S04. I think if you do you need to really boot it up and activate it in a starter. I use starters 90% of the time anyway but that S04 has a reputation for bombing out before doing the full job of fermenting.


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## Chookers (7/12/15)

Danscraftbeer, really (about the yeast).. Oh.. damn.. I was following this Barclay Perkins recipe and it compared the *S04* (which I am using to make soft ginger beer) with the *1099 Whitebread Ale Yeast *(which I don't have, yet)..

I wouldn't want to waste any time or ingredients so I'll wait till I got everything..

12L sounds like a nice little batch.. I wonder if Im biting off more than I can chew here.. as I have only got one BIAB under my belt and its not even bottled yet, HA!

The hops in this recipe, I would want to change to Australian hop flower alternatives.. so I'm looking for ideas on similar flavours and bitterness levels.

As well as the flaked maize, which I have read some interesting alternative to that also.. eg polenta, flaked rice, popped corn.. and someone even used cornflakes.

I wonder if aging this beer, would actually change the flavour.. its in glass.. I don't understand how it would change flavour.. I get how drinks will change flavour in wooden casks..


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## manticle (7/12/15)

It changes flavour because chemical reactions occur for a variety of reasons. Some pathways begin as far back as malting.

Milk would change flavour if bottled in glass and aged. Why not beer?

Wine does too by the way - just won't get a huge benefit ageing your 18 yr old scotch for an extra 10 once bottled.


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## Chookers (9/12/15)

*I found this info on this forum somewhere..*

*Inverting Sugar*

Inverted sugar syrup can be easily made by adding roughly one gram of citric acidhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citric_acid or ascorbic acid, per kilogram of sugar. Cream of tartar (one gram per kilogram) or fresh lemon juice (10 millilitres per kilogram) may also be used.The mixture is boiled for 20 minutes, and will convert enough of the sucrose to effectively prevent crystallization, without giving a noticeably sour taste. Invert sugar syrup may also be produced without the use of acids or enzymes by thermal means alone: two parts granulated sucrose and one part water simmered for five to seven minutes will convert a modest portion to invert sugar.All inverted sugar syrups are created from hydrolysing sucrose to glucose (dextrose) and fructose by heating a sucrose solution, then relying on time alone, with the catalytic properties of an acid or enzymes used to speed the reaction. Commercially prepared acid catalysed solutions are neutralised when the desired level of inversion is reached.All constituent sugars (sucrose, glucose and fructose) support fermentation, so invert sugar solutions may be fermented as readily as sucrose solutions.



_Just saying  _


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## Chookers (10/12/15)

I need the best yeast and hops to achieve the tasting notes on the Barclay Perkins recipe, which are as below.

"Husky, Grainy Malt, Wicked Fruity Tickle, Big rich and mouth numbingly cool"

I would love to hear peoples suggestions/opinions

how long do you think it needs to age to get the best results.


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## danestead (10/12/15)

Chookers said:


> I need the best yeast and hops to achieve the tasting notes on the Barclay Perkins recipe, which are as below.
> 
> "Husky, Grainy Malt, Wicked Fruity Tickle, Big rich and mouth numbingly cool"
> 
> ...


Best yeast - Ive done a couple of 9% beers recently which have turned out excellent with no harsh alcohols after little aging. I think your key for 'best yeast' is to pitch an appropriate amount with strict temp control. The RIS I brewed I pitched an amount of yeast calculated as follows. I used an online yeast calculator like yeastcalc and entered the OG and Litres as usual however I used the 'Lager' option even though it was fermented with wy1056. I believe this is somewhat standard practice for brews up above about 1.080 OG. The belgian tripel I brewed I pitched less than that however that was to deliberately stress the yeast a little more to push the esters etc. I also did a 2nd oxygenation of 1 minute at 12 hrs post pitching.


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## Chookers (10/12/15)

thanks danestead, yeast calculator.. OMG.. I didn't even know they existed.. I will check it out and follow your advice. But the thought of oxygenation of yeast, I would know how to do that, I only have limited equipment.

I've been looking at a lot of hops tonight..

I already have a packet of BSAAZ and a Packet of Nelson Sauvin Flowers.. I don't know if they would be useful in this or not.

I have been looking at *Ella *and *Helga *and *Topaz*.. and also keep getting drawn to *Summer*.. and I don't know if these would be useful.. am I on the right track here?

would the wy1056 be a good option for this?


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## danestead (11/12/15)

Chookers said:


> thanks danestead, yeast calculator.. OMG.. I didn't even know they existed.. I will check it out and follow your advice. But the thought of oxygenation of yeast, I would know how to do that, I only have limited equipment.
> 
> I've been looking at a lot of hops tonight..
> 
> ...


if you dont havea way of controlling the temperature of your fermentations and dont have pure oxygen I would seriously stick with lower alcohol brews. There is a good chance that without sufficient control of your fermentation and by that I mean pitching an appropriate amount of yeast, oxygenating an appropriate amount and at the appropriate time and controlling the temperature of your fermentation precisely, you may/will end up with a harsh brew.


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## Reman (11/12/15)

I'm planning on doing a Barleywine this weekend, and to save on yeast issues I'm going to pitch onto a current batch of APA once it's finished. It's WLP009 aka Coopers and after doing some research should take 9-12% OK.

My plan is to basically do a big APA so it's 100% ale malt to 1.100 with Vic Secret and Summer for hops to 100ibu.


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## Dave70 (11/12/15)

Chookers said:


> thanks danestead, yeast calculator.. OMG.. I didn't even know they existed.. I will check it out and follow your advice. But the thought of oxygenation of yeast, I would know how to do that, I only have limited equipment.
> 
> I've been looking at a lot of hops tonight..
> 
> ...


If you're tip toeing you way into the whole beer as strong as wine thing don't forget the Belgians. Strong ales are a piece of piss, Pilsner malt, a shake of noble, hops, sugar - plain old non inverted, straight from the bag white - and a muscular yeast like 1388. You know for sure a yeast like that will punch its way to 13% without issue, so no heartache with stalled beers or yeast behaving badly. 
In the past I've tended to bottle mine and started drinking them basically as soon as they cleared, from memory around six weeks, delicious, but the ones I had at six months or so made me wish I'd hung on. These were about the 9.5% mark. 
I dunno, barley wine just seems to me like a bit of hodgepodge and an exercise in taking an ale where it was never really meant to go, whereas Belgians were designed that way from the ground up. 

On the flip side, I cant think of a style that hides it's ABV like a Belgian strong. Self control goes out the window quick smart. Thats about when that third longneck starts signing its siren song from the fridge.


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## Chookers (11/12/15)

hmmm.. Dave70, strong ales you say.. ok I will give those a good look at..

This does seem to be a complicated endeavour to get to a Barley Wine, but the recipe I initially referenced sounded much simpler than what I have been reading in this topic.. Makes me wonder how they ever made it in the olden days.

But, I don't want to go to the expense of getting these ingredients if all I'm going to do is waste them.. I hate wasting good ingredients..

Even making a tiny batch like 4L, I would be interested just to bottle something to stick under the house to forget about, just so I rediscover it when its awesome.

I got 5 x 5L demijohns..

but I know making such small batches is not very efficient.


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## Danscraftbeer (11/12/15)

I'm thinking out loud golden syrup. Hey, Barley wine is of strongness,ness, anyway. I know this new Golden Syrup I have is fully yummy. Its only as the alternative to whatever that sugar stuff is in the original recipe. That's what I'm gonna do anyways.


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## antiphile (11/12/15)

And if you're a White Labs man (or have easier access to them), don't forget WLP545 (Belgian Strong Ale). It is a real beast! I did a Belgian Imperial Stout with it and it just seemed to keep working (from memory it got down to 1.006).


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## Danscraftbeer (11/12/15)

1.006?!!! That sounds good to me. Dry? how can it get that term when its so wet and refreshing. B)


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## antiphile (11/12/15)

Your surprise, danestead, sent me scurrying back to the batch spreadsheet. It was only an itsy-bitsy fib (thank heavens). OG 1.077, FG 1.007.


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## Chookers (11/12/15)

super dry and super wet..

I suppose the golden syrup would be in place of the inverted sugars?

What kind of flavours do you get from the WLP545?


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## danestead (12/12/15)

antiphile said:


> Your surprise, danestead, sent me scurrying back to the batch spreadsheet. It was only an itsy-bitsy fib (thank heavens). OG 1.077, FG 1.007.


I think I missed something. What did you lie about?


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## manticle (13/12/15)

Methinks antiphile mistook danscraftbeer for danestead.
A little up the page, danscraftbeer met the claim that antiphile's beer hit 1006 with a surprised exclamation.
The real fg was in fact 1007 (coincidentally the serial number of one of my favourote wyeast products), thus leading antiphile to apologetically admit 1006 was a false number.

Or something like that.


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## freelander2002 (13/12/15)

I have brewed this one several times and it always comes out nice after only 2 ish months in the bottle. Adjust for your own setup.... its a cross between a old ale and a barley wine. Long storage will promote barley wine's typical "wine" taste. 

http://www.7fjellbryggeri.com/brewourgamlehaugenoldalevintage2014

```
Recipe: 7Fjell Gamlehaugen
Brewer: 7 Fjell
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Old Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30,0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 29,00 l
Post Boil Volume: 24,95 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 23,00 l   
Bottling Volume: 21,00 l
Estimated OG: 1,084 SG
Estimated Color: 42,9 EBC
Estimated IBU: 48,1 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80,00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 87,4 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
6,21 kg               Pale Malt, Maris Otter (Thomas Fawcett)  Grain         1        81,8 %        
0,33 kg               Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (118,2 EBC)   Grain         2        4,3 %         
0,33 kg               Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (236,4 EBC)   Grain         3        4,3 %         
0,33 kg               Caramunich Malt (110,3 EBC)              Grain         4        4,3 %         
0,07 kg               Chocolate Malt (Thomas Fawcett) (1000,8  Grain         5        1,0 %         
0,33 kg               Brown Sugar, Dark (98,5 EBC)             Sugar         6        4,3 %         
43,02 g               Horizon [12,00 %] - Boil 60,0 min        Hop           7        42,7 IBUs     
22,37 g               East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5,00 %] - Boil Hop           8        4,6 IBUs      
22,37 g               East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5,00 %] - Boil Hop           9        0,8 IBUs      
2,0 pkg               Safale American  (DCL/Fermentis #US-05)  Yeast         10       -             


Mash Schedule: Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Full Body
Total Grain Weight: 7,58 kg
----------------------------
Name              Description                             Step Temperat Step Time     
Protein Rest      Add 18,93 l of water at 54,0 C          50,0 C        30 min        
Saccharification  Heat to 68,9 C over 15 min              68,9 C        30 min        
Mash Out          Heat to 75,6 C over 10 min              75,6 C        10 min        

Sparge: Fly sparge with 17,34 l water at 75,6 C
```


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## Chookers (13/12/15)

freelander2002, looks like a good recipe.. think it could work as BIAB?

I can only do BIAB.. so Im trying to see how far I can go with it..

I am curious about the brand differences in barley.. I have only used Joe White up to now.. is there much difference between brands?


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## manticle (13/12/15)

Yes there is a difference.
Depends on beer style and palate as to how significant and preference is individual but weyermann vienna is very different to joe white vienna for example.


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## freelander2002 (13/12/15)

Chookers said:


> freelander2002, looks like a good recipe.. think it could work as BIAB?
> 
> I can only do BIAB.. so Im trying to see how far I can go with it..
> 
> I am curious about the brand differences in barley.. I have only used Joe White up to now.. is there much difference between brands?


If your kettle can take the grain bill yes  7,3 kg is quite big for a 23 batch, but you can also do a double mash with 2x 3,5 kg ish if you have control of the temperature steps. 

Sorry for the typeo's , english are not my native tounge


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## Danscraftbeer (14/12/15)

I'm thinking of trying more literally of a wine yeast like EC-1118. Or maybe a Saison yeast? Maybe a clash of flavours with a high IBU but how would I know!? To play it safe I may just use US-05. Make one around the end of this year to drink the end of next year, the year after that etc. B)


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## Reman (15/12/15)

Did the re-iterated mash over the weekend and it worked like a champ and was pretty much spot on to 1.100.

Both mashes were BIAB in the 19L Big W pot, both were 3.5kg of BB Ale malt only, and 90 mins. Target mash temp was 94c.

First mash was 94c down to 91c and I ended up with 1.063 after dunk sparging with 3L. This was a little higher than I expected but it was probably a good thing.

Second mash the temp was not quite what I was aiming for and ended at 65.5c, so I'm guessing it started around 68c. After 90 mins and sparging with 4.5L I ended up with 19L of 1.084 for the boil.

Boil was 2 hours with 50ibu at 60min, 30ibu at 30min, 20ibu at 10min. Ended with about 14L of 1.103. This had a huge amount of trub, most of which went in the FV.

So all up it was a pretty straight forward process, I hit my targets and my first Barleywine is fermenting away on a WLP009 cake used for an APA.

Had a taste of the OG and the taste is amazing, very complex and sweetish. I might have to try 2 hour boils on more of my beers!

Recipe here http://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/979856/crispy-all-australian-barleywine


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## Chookers (15/12/15)

Reman do you mean 64 and 61, 94 and 91 seem very high for mashing.. assuming its a typo



Reman said:


> Both mashes were BIAB in the 19L Big W pot, both were 3.5kg of BB Ale malt only, and 90 mins. Target mash temp was 94c.
> 
> First mash was 94c down to 91c and I ended up with 1.063 after dunk sparging with 3L. This was a little higher than I expected but it was probably a good thing.


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## Reman (15/12/15)

Chookers said:


> Reman do you mean 64 and 61, 94 and 91 seem very high for mashing.. assuming its a typo


Whoops! You are indeed correct.


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## Chookers (21/12/15)

I have questions regarding the Flaked Maize addition in the Barclay Perkins recipe.. I have heard of people using all sorts in place.. like popped corn, polenta and some use flaked rice.. I am just curious as to the amounts you would add.. would it be the same as 7.9% ?

I am not ready to make this yet, still gotta build my experience

I am also looking at alternative hops.. what I am trying to get is something as close as possible to this recipe using only Aussie products with exception to the yeast.


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## Mardoo (22/12/15)

Danscraftbeer said:


> I'm thinking of trying more literally of a wine yeast like EC-1118. Or maybe a Saison yeast? Maybe a clash of flavours with a high IBU but how would I know!? To play it safe I may just use US-05. Make one around the end of this year to drink the end of next year, the year after that etc. B)


Go the WLP099 Super High Gravity. All accounts I've found are that it's originally a barley wine yeast.


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## Chookers (22/12/15)

I just read the White Labs Brewers notes on the WLP009, it says that it will produce winey flavour when it gets to 16% ABV pitch 3-4 more yeast as normal and aerate very heavily 4 times as much as normal gravity beers.

Can I aerate without an air stone? would just shaking the vessel put oxygen into the solution? would I have to shake the vessel every couple of days? and if I did have to do it a few time would I have to open the vessel to let the oxygen in and the CO2 out? That may introduce bacteria, No?


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## Chookers (22/12/15)

sorry so many silly questions.. but I am new to doing AG, so I would only attempt this after I am more experienced. I am trying to knock out a plan for hopefully April. does this sound like a good idea to you guys? am I being too cautious or not cautious enough?


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## Chookers (26/12/15)

are flaked maize and flaked rice comparable flavour wise?.. see my previous post 21/12/15

I'm looking for film of people doing the reiterated mash..


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## danestead (27/12/15)

Chookers said:


> are flaked maize and flaked rice comparable flavour wise?.. see my previous post 21/12/15
> 
> I'm looking for film of people doing the reiterated mash..


I'm not sure about maize but I thought rice was used primarily as a cheap way to up the sugar/alcohol content in a beer without adding much flavour. If I were wanting to thin out a beer's flavour I'd just add table sugar, but thats just me. There may be other reasons you want to possibly use rice but that is my opinion.


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## Chookers (27/12/15)

thanks *danestead *for answering my curiosity.. I wonder if I could do one of these strong beers on a very small scale like a nano batch 4L when I do my next ale.. just to try them out, I do want to see the way it will change with age.


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## manticle (27/12/15)

Chookers said:


> I just read the White Labs Brewers notes on the WLP009, it says that it will produce winey flavour when it gets to 16% ABV pitch 3-4 more yeast as normal and aerate very heavily 4 times as much as normal gravity beers.
> 
> Can I aerate without an air stone? would just shaking the vessel put oxygen into the solution? would I have to shake the vessel every couple of days? and if I did have to do it a few time would I have to open the vessel to let the oxygen in and the CO2 out? That may introduce bacteria, No?


Shaking will introduce some oxygen but never what is considered adequate.
The bigger the beer, the more the small things often matter (similarly/conversely the more delicate the beer, the more the small things matter).

You can shake a few times but once the anaerobic aspect of fermentation is close to complete, additional shaking will accelerate unwelcome aging/oxidation reactions so it is best avoided once you notice any visible signs of fermentation.

A big yeast pitch of fresh healthy yeast will definitely help.


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## Reman (27/12/15)

Mines down to 1.020 from 1.100, been that way for a few days so I'm guessing she might be done. Taste is quite weird like it still hasn't integrated yet. Definitely strong on the alcohol, but quite clean. I'm going to leave it on the trub for about 6 more weeks, then I'm going to rack and probably split in two to Brett and oak one and just oak the other.


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## Chookers (27/12/15)

> Thanks Manticle, and Reman.. I would like to hear how yours goes Reman.


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## Chookers (28/12/15)

I just bought this thermometer, has anyone used this sort before? have I just thrown away $30?.. I hear CDN is a good brand. I did need a reliable thermometer my other one was way out and I had no way to recalibrate it, and it was slow.

http://www.petersofkensington.com.au/Public/CDN-Programmable-Probe-Thermometer-Timer.aspx


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## Grainer (28/12/15)

looks nice


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## Markbeer (2/1/16)

Rice is different to using simple sugars.

Rice doesnt thin a beer out. It is low in flavour and will lighten the taste but not lower the body.

When you mash it it takes on the fermentability same as the other grains. The enzymes dont distinguish between rice starch or barley.

So if you wanted a thicker beer with less flavour rice mashed at a high temp could be an option.

I cant see why you would want it in a barley wine.


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## Danscraftbeer (2/1/16)

Mardoo. I'll try that WLP099 next attempt.

Just for notes on subject.
My Barleywine attempt hasn't worked, darn. Its just a 6lt batch thankfully.
6lt batch, OG = 1.095. 1pk EC-1118 yeast rehydrated as instructions and pitched. (yeast count checks ok by MrMalty and Beersmith) 
Fermented at varying room temp, ~23 to 28c. After 2 weeks its stuck at 1.060. I made a stir plated starter with another packet of EC-1118. Stir plated for 14 hours to see just a little krausen activity but it was active. Added that to a secondary and carefully racked the brew off the old lees into the new activated yeast. 
Its only managed to drop to 1.050. Darn! I mashed for full body but I thought EC-1118 has the reputation to eat it all. :huh:


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## Mardoo (2/1/16)

It may be - and I'm going by what I've heard, not experience- the 1118 is too oriented towards wine-type sugars and can't do anything with the maltose and maltotriose you find in wort, but not so much in must (juice for wine making). Anyone with more experience with that yeast have anything to say?


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## Chookers (2/1/16)

*Markbeer*, thanks for answering my rice question.. If I were to do this recipe I would probably use polenta in place of the flaked maize. I was just curious to see what other ingredients could be used in place, and what they would add, you have answered my question..

I was having mixed grain porridge for a long time, but now don't eat it any more, I am now left with a few packets of rolled Rice, rolled Rye, and rolled barley from the health food store.. could any of these be useful in a beer or barley wine. These are not malted.

*on the yeast...*

I am not experienced but I have read that the T58 yeast is supposed to be pretty good at eating up sugars.. or what about the one they call pacman, is that anygood.

They guy in the Barclay Perkins recipe uses the Whitebread yeast, but that didn't seem to have an unusually high alc tolerance.

1388 Belgian Strong Ale sounds like it may be applicable (I have only read the description)

I am only throwing these out there, but have no actual experience with any of them..


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## manticle (2/1/16)

I wouldn't use a belgian yeast. Are you making english or us style barleywine? Use a us or uk yeast as appropriate.
1388 is wonderful for belgian strong ale.
Wouldn't touch it for a barleywine.


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## Chookers (2/1/16)

*Manticle*, Im sure you are right.. (I have no experience of these yeasts).. I was only looking at the words *strong *and the alc tolerance..

how would the t58 do for a Barley Wine..


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## Markbeer (3/1/16)

The T58 is a belgian style yeast that would not suit a barley wine.

The cerrals you mentioned could be added to the mash. Rye and rolled barley add great head retention. I cook first before i add inmalted cereals to my mash when I do it.

For yeast I would just use S05. Remember this, just about all ale yeasts can go 10% alc. Its the environment you provide that makes it happen.

Denny Conn and Jamil both state the above but reference 14%. I have gotten S04.to bring SG1120 to 1030 when pitchinh on a whole cake in 3 days.


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## manticle (3/1/16)

These yeasts have very specific flavours that would be out of place in this kind of brew.
What abv are you trying to get to? Most uk and us yeasts will push 10 or more easily enough - it's mostly about yeast health and cell numbers plus sufficient early aeration that will see the brew attenuate properly.


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## Chookers (3/1/16)

thank you everyone for your attention and answers, they are very helpful and appreciated. I am learning so much on this site.

If I were doing the Barclay Barley Wine, I would want it over 10%.

but since I have never used any other yeasts other than ale yeast, I do not know what flavours come from these specialty yeasts.. I am about to do a Wheat Beer, I was going to use the US05, but have been advised by other members to go with Forbidden Fruit so that will be my first experience of how yeast can add/contribute flavour..

With this Barley Wine I really wanted to go with all Australian ingredients as much as possible, so I was really looking for suitable alternatives to the ingredients. If I can use some of my Rolled grains that would be great, as *Markbeer* said I can use some of those.. Also if I were to make it, it would only be a small batch like 6Lt-8Lt..

It would be an experiment.

So then would you say go for the English ale yeasts?? I have just been reading the description of Wyeast 9097PC Old Ale Blend... sounds ok, except for the *horsey* characteristic.. (that doesn't sound so appealing) but the rest of it sounds nice

I just went on the Wyeast web site and they recommend a few at the bottom of their page https://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_styledetails.cfm?ID=191


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## Reman (3/1/16)

If you want to go Australian, then I think the Coopers yeast will do the job for you as it did for me. Though for a Barleywine I'd pitch double what you normally would for an ale.


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## Chookers (3/1/16)

Cool, thanks Reman.

Is that just the coopers ale yeast?

I hear people talking about pitching on a yeast cake. I haven't done this before, I will have to learn how to make one.


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## manticle (3/1/16)

You make one every time you brew


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## Chookers (3/1/16)

manticle said:


> You make one every time you brew


 oh yeh, lol.. 

Could I do one so its like a super charged starter.. would that help with a Barley wine?


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## Mardoo (3/1/16)

It's not uncommon to pitch high grav worts onto a cake of a yeast you want to use.


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## Chookers (3/1/16)

is there a ale or IPA recipe that would be good for a yeast cake (and drinking too of course) for a barley wine.. would the Dr Smurtos Golden Ale leave a decent cake?

I would do a 12-13L batch.. that will all have to wait now because Im about to do the Wheat Beer..


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## danestead (5/1/16)

Chookers said:


> is there a ale or* IPA recipe* that would be good for a yeast cake (and drinking too of course) for a barley wine.. would the Dr Smurtos Golden Ale leave a decent cake?
> 
> I would do a 12-13L batch.. that will all have to wait now because Im about to do the Wheat Beer..


You don't want yeast that has been stressed out during a high alcohol ferment. Pick a moderate gravity brew of similar flavour characteristics to what you are going to pitch on top (barley wine). And obviously use the desired yeast strain you want for the barley wine.


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## Chookers (9/1/16)

Thanks danestead, great advice. What would you call moderate gravity, 1045? 1050?..

Is it better to use a yeast cake on a Barley Wine than just getting some liquid yeast? is one more effective than the other for such a high gravity.


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## manticle (9/1/16)

Lower than 1050. Make a uk mild or best bitter.


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## Chookers (9/1/16)

okay.. thanks


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## Mardoo (9/1/16)

In response to the second half of your question a fresh cake is likely to be more effective - and very certainly cheaper - than a pitch of liquid yeast. You'd need about 4 vials of liquid yeast with no starter, or 2 vials in a 2L starter. 

It seems to me like a fresh cake from a normal gravity brew kicks off faster and goes harder than a starter pitch.


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## Chookers (9/1/16)

thanks Mardoo, I keep forgetting that this high gravity would make it harder, but damn that's a lot of yeast.. I know I must have asked this already.. damn my memory..

Im writing this all down in my Barley Wine Section of my journal/ beer diary... its seems to be more effective for me, than techno version


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## Reman (20/2/16)

Reman said:


> Mines down to 1.020 from 1.100, been that way for a few days so I'm guessing she might be done. Taste is quite weird like it still hasn't integrated yet. Definitely strong on the alcohol, but quite clean. I'm going to leave it on the trub for about 6 more weeks, then I'm going to rack and probably split in two to Brett and oak one and just oak the other.


It's been sitting on oak cubes for a month and it's ready for bottling. Has taken on quite a dark colour and if I leave it in a fridge to settle it drops out gunk and most of the vegemite flavour. What's left is a very smooth almost dried apricot flavour. There is no harsh alcohol flavours. The oak is there but doesn't dominate. I'll probably carbonate to 2 vols. I'll post again once it carbonated and I crack the first bottle.


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## Chookers (28/2/16)

Reman, that sounds like a beauty.

I was hesitant about doing this style because I assumed there would be a vegemite flavour, but if you can get rid of it, then I am definitely planning it. I think I will have to wait a while before I can get mine started, as I'm sure I have worn out my brewing rights for a time. Apparently my brewing paraphernalia gives people the shits, I guess its in their way or something.. So I'll pack it away (for now.. Mwaahahaaa!) once I bottle my Hefe-ish wheat beer.

I think I'll start it all up again in late April..  gives me time to hash out all the details and get settled on my plan.


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