# Herbs in non-hopped beers



## TimT

What are the best herbs to add flavour to a beer? Aside from hops? And what are some of the pluses and minuses of using them in brewing? I'm thinking especially of using herbs to bitter beers - yes, I know you can get lots of great effects from hops, but I want to look at the great alternatives in the herbal world too. I'm sure there are many.

I've been experimenting with some of my latest brews and want to do a lot more this year. Partial list follows -

_Yarrow_ - bitter taste but you need more than just a few leaves to get a strong taste, it seems. Flowers also add aroma.
PLUS: Plentiful plant, sometimes a weed. Like hops, it's a preservative. Apparently (unlike hops) it has 'psychoactive' effects, so it tends to wake you up.
MINUS: Not sure whether boiling for too long would kill the bitter flavour? (Possibly this happened with my latest brew).

_Wormwood_ - extremely bitter, also extremely plentiful.
PLUS: Grows in gardens all over the place, also wild. Probably don't need much to bitter a brew. Again like hops, it's a preservative and is anti-bacterial.
MINUS: It tends to make the soil around it inhospitable for other plants, so not always a good gardening plant.

_Raspberry leaves, strawberry leaves, blackberry leaves_ - all impart somewhat sweet, slightly astringent flavours to the brew (if used in sufficient quantities). Give it a tea-like character, and also tannins (which might tend to make the beer more wine-like).
PLUS: Plentiful at this time of year.
MINUS: Not really a good base herb for bittering. Of course you might want a sweet beer but I'm of the opinion that a slight bittering is nice to offset the remaining malty sweetness.

_Lavender _- everyone knows it and it seems to be growing in everyone's garden. Would imagine it could be used for bittering, flavour, and aroma and pretty much every part of the plant would seem useful for this - leaf, twig, flower. Not sure if it has preservative effects? 
PLUS: Ridiculously plentiful, delicious smell, and it's taste is very strong and seems to linger (try eating a leaf), so I don't think you'd need very much. Not sure if it's poisonous but it's popular in cooking and pot-pourris so I wouldn't think so.
MINUS: Possibly lavenders smells and taste may not survive a long/vigorous boil? (Be interested in hearing about this - I'm planning a lavender-honey saison soon).

_Juniper _- you can get the berries pretty easily at shops (I got a teeny tiny bag from Grape and Grain for a largish amount of money and then a day or so afterwards discovered I could buy a huge amount at the local supermarket for a much smaller amount of money); the twigs and branches and needles can be used in brewing too apparently. We have one growing in our garden but it's very small.
PLUS: Like hops they are a preservative. Since one traditional beer-making practice was to make a juniper essence, and then use that to do the mash before boiling the beer, the taste is probably pretty strong and will survive a long boil.
MINUS: Can't really think of any minuses!

This is related to some other threads I have going here. I'd love to hear from other folks who have experience making hopless beers - what's worked for you?


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## wynnum1

Juniper berry that's one of the main ingredients for gin.


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## Not For Horses

What about sasafras bark? That's pretty bitter and with an interesting flavour.


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## TimT

Read about it. Must be in some of the naturalist stores I guess....


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## mr_wibble

Remember to check the toxicity of this stuff.

Wormwood contains Thujone, which you may or may not want in your drinks.
(it was supposedly the psychoactive "bad" ingredient in absinthe)


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## TimT

Oh yeah. Meant to mention that.

Wormwood does contain thujone - but my reference book says you'll find _more _thujone in sage, which is considered a perfectly acceptable culinary herb. So, it doesn't seem cause for concern.


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## TimT

I made a sage beer a while back (did have a low level of hops too). Very interesting flavour, though if I was doing it again I'd probably try and make the sage-iness a bit more subtle. It was fairly overpowering.


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## TimT

Since I'm planning a lavender and honey saison in a few weeks 'm doing a bit of an experiment with lavender to compare flavours. I've boiled one teacup of water last night and poured it over two sprigs of fresh lavender, thrown two more sprigs in some water and boiled it (to see how much flavour that would extract), and steeped two more sprigs in a third cup of cool water. Let's see what each comes up with.


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## manticle

The alcohol content of early absinthe plus the frequency with which it was consumed was more likely to account for descriptions of psychotropic experiences. Maybe that and the laudunum.

Personal taste maybe but lavender should be kept well away from anything entering the mouth I reckon. Grandma's underpants drawer (that and napthalene) in a glass?

When I worked in commercial kitchens, I experienced lavender icecream. **** me it was horrible. The company we purchased from (didn't make our own at that place) normally made delicious icecreams but that was bought deliberately to stop people ordering icecream desserts as our serving freezer was on the blink and every bowl that went out was a creamy soup. The owner wouldn't take the dish off due to its popularity (hey it's summer, let's order icecream) so the chef ordered lavender to get people thinking their money would be best spent elsewhere on the menu.

I wouldn't touch it in beer. Rosemary on the other hand might be OK in the right beer.

Have you got radical brewing TimT? Sure I've mentioned it before.


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## TimT

Have been doing a bit of reading around on the other brewing sites, Manticle, and some brewers seemed to have quite positive experiences using lavender. One, though, mentioned that some varieties contain camphor - ie, that mothbally scent - and ought to be avoided in cooking. So it may be best to be careful which varieties are being used. The advice usually seems to be to use lavender sparingly to avoid an overwhelming bitterness.

Only recently I've been dabbling with lavender in cooking (making a lavender-infused panacotta) and it's quite delicious - a slight sweetness and astringency from the lavender pairing up well with the rich honey flavour.

Still building up my brewing library!


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## TimT

Re: early accounts of psychotropic experiences associated with absinthe: it's quite possible the early absinthe drinkers, the decadent poets, were inclined to give exaggerated accounts of drinking liquors, and exaggerate the importance of liquor itself - as they were interested in the nature of subjective experience and the mind, and were an early example of a bohemian drug-culture.

ABSINTHIA TAETRA

_*Ernest Dowson, 1897*

Green changed to white, emerald to opal: nothing was changed.

The man let the water trickle gently into his glass, and as the green clouded, a mist fell from his mind.

Then he drank opaline.

Memories and terrors beset him. The past tore after him like a panther and through the blackness of the present he saw the luminous tiger eyes of the things to be.

But he drank opaline.

And that obscure night of the soul, and the valley of humiliation, through which he stumbled, were forgotten. He saw blue vistas of undiscovered countries, high prospects and a quiet, caressing sea. The past shed its perfume over him to-day held his hand as if it were a little child, and to-morrow shone like a white star: nothing was changed.

He drank opaline.

The man had known the obscure night of the soul, and lay even now in the valley of humiliation; and the tiger menace of the things to be was red in the skies. But for a little while he had forgotten.

Green changed to white, emerald to opal: nothing was changed._


Ernest Dowson, attempting to prove what a bad-arse he was.


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## MHB

People have been making beer for over 20,000 years; as far back as archaeologists have been able to trace something has been used to offset the sweet flavour.
People tried everything, some things were poisonous, some carcinogenic (see Sassafras) but as soon as someone discovered hops, everyone who could get their hands on them dropped the alternatives as fast as they could and used hops!
This in the face of a great deal of opposition from those vested interest groups who in some places had control of the alternative bittering agent market – read a bit about the history of Gruit and the Church.
If you want to make good beer Hops are the best
Mark


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## TimT

Hops are overwhelmingly associated with beer these days.... though not without quite a bit of legislative and financial (through taxes) help. I love them.... but there are plenty of other, perfectly good, non-beer drinks made without hops. (In fact how many products are they used in apart from beer these days)?

And think of how much of a killing beer shops would make if they could sell dried herbs - wormwood, yarrow, sage, etc - alongside hops...!


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## manticle

Probably not much but I still understand your interest. Hops AND other herbs.


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## TimT

I may have slightly exaggerated but less than Ernest Dowson did.... bottom line, I agree with what you say - I like the focus to be hops and other herbs, though with a focus on the 'other' since hops are so well covered elsewhere.


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## Tex083

If you can get your hands on some Beer 916 Lebanese Pale Ale have a taste I love it but it's not for everyone.

It's a pale ale with Zatar the middle eastern spice mix, little to no hops in it I can't remember. Tim I think you were relatively close to me, Black Hearts and Sparrows usually have it in stock.


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## Tex083

Oh and I'm planning on using a smoked tea in a upcoming beer, after tasting a peated saison I'm all over the smokey flavours.


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## MHB

[SIZE=medium]I freely admit to being a bit of a beer purist, largely because I have taken every opportunity to taste other products like Gruit and have yet to encounter a non-hop beer that was worth the effort, if you find one that does taste good I would love to hear about it.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]“Hops are overwhelmingly associated with beer these days.... though not without quite a bit of legislative and financial (through taxes) help.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Crap, complete crap, well not the “Hops are overwhelmingly associated with beer these days” true they are because they make good beer – the part about tax. Hops are a globally traded commodity they are taxed like any other product of agriculture, there may be some anomalies in some countries tax laws tho I have never heard of any. The implication that if hops weren’t in some way advantaged with tax concessions they wouldn’t enjoy their prominent role in beer production is garbage. If you have any evidence to the contrary please post it – or at least think before you post shit.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]As for making a killing out of selling herbs and spice, well I don’t and I carry a reasonable range, I try to focus on harder to get ingredients like Grains of Paradise, Curacao Zest, Mauritian Vanilla Pods and Coriander that is suitable for brewing, even went to the trouble of buying a proper spice mill.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I very much understand, even support and encourage experimentation, if you want to please do so but there never was a better alternative to hops, herbs and spice (used judiciously) are fundamental to some beers and there is a long history of their use.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]This is a spreadsheet I have converted from American units to something a bit more rational – having used some of the recommended dosing rates I would suggest you use half the recommended maximum as an upper limit as some of the additions are anything but subtle and will dominate the beer, it’s also a shed load easier to add more at need than it is to pick out excess flavour molecules with tweezers.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Mark[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]View attachment Brewspices 2.xls
[/SIZE]


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## technobabble66

Hey Tim,
Check: gentian, goldenseal, globe artichoke, dandelion root, andrographis. 
They're all herbs that herbalists use for their bitter elements. 
Note that goldenseal is traditionally used against candida, so it might have a suppressant effect on brewers yeast (I'm a naturopath ;-) ).


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## Yob

Heather? there was a pretty good adventure into Heather a few years ago, mixed results I grant you.. still have some Heather in fact..

will also grant we used hops as well.. but the reading I did showed you_ 'coulld'_ make a beer with heather and various other bits and bobs.. they are better off being used in addition to hops as subtle specialties rather than a stand alone if you know what I mean?

downloaded that spreadsheet.. thanx for sharing it


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## TimT

Mark I am blown away by your generosity, thank you so much for that spreadsheet which must have been a labour of love to compile. And I love how on this forum folks can say to you you're full of it and then give you something as wonderful and useful as that spreadsheet.

I'm willing to defer to your knowledge of the subject but it was my understanding that beer is often defined in laws in the as 'a fermented beverage of water, malt, hops, barley, and yeast' - and was taxed accordingly.


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## Yob

Its been taxed in many different ways over the centuries.


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## TimT

I'd love to try some heather ale some time Yob.

We might still have some Dandelion root tea lying around in the pantry so you never know, could give that a go in beer soon. And obviously plenty of dandelion weeds about.


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## TimT

Aside from the bittering there are plenty of culinary herbs that would be wonderful for beers because of their intensely fragrant qualities. By adding thyme, rosemary, sage, cretan savoury, lavender, rose, etc to the wort at the end of the boil and/or after, wondrous aromas are created that add to and contrast with the beer flavours nicely.


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## brewtas

Spruce tips get used by some brewers both on their own and alongside hops. Haven't tried it myself yet but it seems like a potentially good option.


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## TimT

Yep. Brewtas, you'll remember a previous conversation we had hereabouts on that very subject - the use of spruce and juniper in beers. We then went on to talk about Sahti!

I wanted to mention here in reply to Yob's comment that heather worked well in combination with hops - my spruce beer (well, my successful one) seemed to do something similar: the mild bitterness of the hops (Saaz) went well with the slightly sour-citrussy flavour of the spruce.


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## brewtas

Oops! I remember now that you mention it. That's how good my memory is!


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## mr_wibble

MHB said:


> [...] but as soon as someone discovered hops, everyone who could get their hands on them dropped the alternatives as fast as they could and used hops!
> This in the face of a great deal of opposition from those vested interest groups who in some places had control of the alternative bittering agent market – read a bit about the history of Gruit and the Church.


The right to sell gruit somehow came to be under the control of the church (perhaps out of monastic brewing). Since brewers were required to use this specific herb mixture, and they could only buy it from the single purveyor, it became quite a source of income, and a tax in all but name. During the middle ages, the so-named "gruitrecht" was traded, and in a lot of instances fell under the ownership of the city. Some cities waived the gruit tax to encourage local brewers, while other held it with an iron fist. In a lot of cases (most? all?) the content of the gruit mixture was a closely guarded secret - and perhaps this is why a formal ingredient list is so ill-defined today. That, and regional variation too I guess.

All this leads me to wonder if the switch to hops was not only popular because of the taste, but maybe it allowed one to make beer without paying the gruit tax?


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## TimT

Another benefit of gruit beer. If you make one and people like it, you can say "THANKS! I GREW IT MYSELF!" And wait for the groans....

My go-to book (and, I suppose, partly the inspiration for my current explorations in this topic) on herbal brewing, Stephen Harrod Buhner's 'Sacred Herbal and Healing Beers'*, takes a fairly detailed look at the history of gruit. He covers some of the explanations you cover, Mr Wibble, and also suggests that decisions about beer could have split along Catholic and Protestant lines, with Protestants being eager to differentiate themselves from Catholics - one way of doing this was by rejecting the old monastic system and preferring hopped beers. 

Really it's probably a difficult subject to generalise about because a) gruit was originally a German word and do we know precisely the extent to which this German concept reached into other countries b.) people have been brewing beer for ages, with a variety of ingredients - so just as there is a period of time 'after gruit', there must have been a 'before gruit' period too, maybe where entirely different herbs were used c) it's easy to over-emphasise the importance of laws relating to gruit or hops now - they may just be consequences of historical movements that we're ignorant of, rather than the cause of them. 

_*Or it could possibly be 'Sacred Healing and Herbal Beers', it doesn't really matter. _


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## Ross

TimT said:


> I'd love to try some heather ale some time Yob.
> 
> We might still have some Dandelion root tea lying around in the pantry so you never know, could give that a go in beer soon. And obviously plenty of dandelion weeds about.


Our Celtic Heather Ale & Juniper Red Ale were on tap at Brother Burger in Fitzroy last week. Not sure if they have sold out or not.


cheers Ross


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## evildrakey

I've used Elecampane in some of my beers, meads, and liqueurs... It's got an amazing aroma and flavour


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## TimT

Lovely! Adding Elecampane to my list.

One of my other successful brews last year - a Scottish light with tagetes. Tagetes are a South American flower often referred to as a type of marigold, though I don't think the two plants are related. They're edible (mostly, check the write up on Wikipedia), and have a delightful sweet/cordially/pineapply aroma that is perfect for brews. (In fact I think they may have been used in several South American beers). When I made my tagetes beer I just used a minimum of hops for bittering and skipped the flavour and aroma hopping. Popped tagetes, if I recall correctly, directly into the fermenter and the flavour and smell transferred nicely over to the final brew. My last one seemed to have lost a bit of the sweet floral scent but the flower intriguingly seems to have left a spicy and slightly peppery flavour behind. Really worth using.


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## TimT

Giving a strong dandelion tea a go at the moment. Slightly medicinal taste - but very spicy and a strong earthy bitterness; it could go very well in a brew.

My previous (very uncontrolled) experiment with lavender - after having tested 1) lavender, steeped in hot water following a boil, 2) lavender, boiled for 10 minutes, and 3) lavender, just steeped in cool water - they all taste the same! But lavender in boiling water tends to colour the water. The taste seems to me one that would work best with light additions of lavender, not strong additions.


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## spassmaschine

TimT said:


> c) it's easy to over-emphasise the importance of laws relating to gruit or hops now - they may just be consequences of historical movements that we're ignorant of, rather than the cause of them.


This is a good point. In many ways, I think maybe it makes sense to treat the laws as a mere codification of the changes that have already happened on the ground.

I remember reading an article a while ago that argued hops only really became more popular (in England, anyway) from the 16th century, as common land and church land was privatised or enclosed, initially for more profitable wool production. Commoners were pushed off the land into urban slums, and no longer had the means to brew or traipse the commons for herbs; they no longer lived close to the land and had to buy things (and consequently get waged jobs) they might previously have made themselves. Brewing went from being something done in the village by small-scale alewives and brewsters, to something done by big urban brewers (i.e. those with the capital to buy up land and invest in the initial production systems necessary for a high yield). Hops became the herb of choice because of their higher yield, and because of their much-longer lasting preservative properties (i'm sceptical that this is necessarily true, at least compared to some herbs), meaning beer could be distributed much further afield and brewers could thus sell to a much greater market. 

So: hops became widespread because of changes in social relations - changes in the way people were able to access all the things. The prevalence of hops in brewing is a mere byproduct (though a tasty one) of beer becoming largely a commercial product, a commodity, rather than something done as part of daily living.

On the other hand, I am writing this on a home-brewing forum, so that kinda throws a spanner in the whole argument.

Also the changes in property relationships i'm talking about can't easily be separated from the changes in religious worship you guys were talking about above, i.e. the rise of various branches of Protestantism may have mirrored the rise and fall of different social classes, in various times and places.


Plus I can't remember where I read any of that and may very well be making it up.


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## spassmaschine

P.S. more in line with the topic of the thread, at the moment I'm brewing a herb beer using the fruit of native hop bush (Dodonea viscosa). Apparently some of the early European settlers made a few brews with it before hops had been brought out here. No idea if it'll taste any good; I imagine in this case, the switch from hop bush to actual hops may have been entirely taste-based.


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## TimT

Sticky hop bush - another plant I want to try brewing with, Spassmachine.

I know so little about Australian plants but there must be many that would help make good brews.

Another reason hops may have become preferred was they were simpler: why fiddle around with concoctions of two, three, four, ten, twenty herbs when one will do the trick? This reason would be *especially* attractive to large-scale commercial brewers: it would simplify their task and make it cheaper.

Early use of the sticky hop bush (or other brews, for example, spruce beer) that colonial records of Australia and the Americas talk about is an interesting example of this: the colonialists didn't take commercial brewers with them. They may have had a ship's chef, and the task of the chef would have been to create *something* edible and drinkable from the available resources. And many times, colonialists would have simply been thrown back onto their own resources, and they would have brewed using techniques they learnt from their mums or their friends. So brewing techniques were much more innovative (and sometimes dangerous) than those that commercial brewers would have used.


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## TimT

My book _The Drunken Botanist_ mentions that old brewers were often fond of using plant resins and saps, even pine cones, in beer. Stuff like myrrh, for instance. One of the things I really love about hops is their pine-iness - so, well, this naturally suggests to me that pine needles, pine cones, pine sap, fir, spruce, juniper, other conifers - which have all been used in ales in the past - could be used in the same way now.


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## manticle

Baron had a couple of beers using indigenous plants. Lemon myrtle and wattleseed are the two I remember.
Didn't mond the beers although they were hopped beers with those ingredients not an alternative to hops.


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## TimT

At the previous (and first) meeting of our north of Melbourne Merri Creek Brewer Masher Whatever The Hell We're Going To Call Ourselves Group someone mentioned to me a short run of 'black wattle seed beer' an Aussie brewer put out - wattle seeds providing the bitterness. That's interesting - during the holidays I saw those black wattle seeds everywhere. I assume it's the same plant. (I guess this is the brewer you're referring to.)

Lemon myrtle sounds delightful.


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## spassmaschine

I think more or less all wattle seeds in aus are edible, but there's a bit of variation from species to species. From what I've heard, the most palatable wattle seeds come from Wirilda (_Acacia retinoides_), which is more a coastal plant in Vic. No idea whether the seeds from the silver wattles and blackwoods and lightwoods we get along the creek are any good. 

That Drunken Botanist book looks amazing. TimT, is it worth the buy, would you say?


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## TimT

Is it worth the buy? Yes! Readable, good list of plants - the only real problem being the lack of Australian plants. (Eucalyptus appears - not much else, I think). The focus is largely on the use of plants in spirits, but certainly gives lots of ideas about stuff you can do with those plants in spirits and wine and beer as well. Copious sections on wheat and barley and even yeast (that's a digression since yeast isn't really a plant) and hops, tables of herbs, etc. The author seems to be more of a spirit enthusiast than a beer enthusiast, but yeah. Lots of good stuff.

I got mine for Christmas which might explain why I'm so enthusiastic about it though.... definitely well worth the buy if you get someone else to get it for you!


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## TimT

Got some mugwort today. It's from the Artemisia family (so related to wormwood), and you see it popping up in old brew recipes, so I'm looking forward to using it. How good are naturalists and organic food stores? I mean, I know all that stuff - dandelion root, elderflower, elecampane, meadowsweet, etc - is supposed to be there for 'traditional medicinal uses' and all that (pretty sceptical about a lot of that) but me, I'm just interested in how it'll go in a brew. Great resource.

Incidentally , gave my garden saison - raspberry leaf, strawberry leaf, yarrow leaf, yarrow flower, and lemon rind added to the brew - a taste today. Lovely sour-bitterness, a kind of combination of gentle malt flavours and esters produced by the yeast. Should be good for bottling soon.


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## Econwatson

Not sure if you Aussies have it, but we have a beer called Fraoch brewed by Williams Brothers: http://www.williamsbrosbrew.com/beerboard/bottles/fraoch-heather-ale

It's quite tasty and lists Heather and Bogmyrtle as principal ingredients. Try and get a hold of a bottle, it's one of the few popular beers brewed with herbs here.


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## TimT

Today I've been brewing a porter with wormwood as the bittering. Base malt is Vienna, with some Munich malt and chocolate malt added to the mash. Added wormwood at the start of a one-hour boil and the smell quickly filled the house - beautiful minty-sweet smell. The taste it added to the wort was beautifully complex - bitter, but with liquorish and minty notes. To my nose it even had a kind of honey smell to it. (Especially fortunate as I plan to be adding honey to the brew in a day or two, at high krausen).

Wormwood beer, folks. It's good. Get into it.


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## evildrakey

Tim T - if you are willing to expand out to mead's, then Sir Kenelm Digby's 1669 manuscript for mead recipes is chock full of unusual recipes with herbs...


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## TimT

Oh yeah - I've got a few meads Evildrakey. My first was a Digby recipe (fairly simple one with sultanas and not much else), my later ones all have spice and herb additions. He has a few hopped meads too, I recall.

Digby is also an excellent source for other cooking information: he has one of the original recipes for the traditional English slipcoat cheese which I used as guidance when I made one recently.


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## evildrakey

> My first was a Digby recipe (fairly simple one with sultanas and not much else)


Lady Belliasses Meath? Raisins and Cardamon?


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## TimT

Funnily enough I have the shortcut to Digby on my computer, so I'll just open up and have a look see....

Ah yes, probably was that recipe though I skipped the cardamom addition, possibly should not have as that may have helped to balance the mead out a bit better. It was my first mead, that one, and Digby was excellent - so many recipes, so many ideas.


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## TimT

Poured the first of my batch of yarrow beer last night. It had carbonated nicely (though maybe I might give it another week to come to full maturity), and had a nice round fruity sour-bitterness to it. (A lot of this probably came from the esters produced by the yeast rather than the yarrow).

But I noticed it had a funny effect - or should I say lack of effect - on me: when you drink hopped beers, you get a little hit of sleepiness because of the sedative effects of the hops. Not sure what happens when you drink a few, but usually your body seems to adjust to it somehow and you relax into it.

With the yarrow beer I didn't have the sleepy effect. I only noticed this a while after. Hm, I didn't get sleepy.....

Weird but not unpleasant. The best way of describing this surprise is by quoting a Mervyn Peake poem that has a similar surprise (a rather effective non-effect) in the last line:

_O'er seas that have no beaches_
_To break their waves upon,_
_I floated with twelve peaches, _
_A sofa, and a swan;_

_The sharp waves broke above us, _
_The blunt waves broke around, _
_There was no-one to love us, _
_No hope of being found;_

_When, on the blank horizon_
_So endlessly adrip_
_I saw! All of a sudden - _
_No sign of any ship. _


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## TimT

There's a good benefit for herbal beers - good beers for a break at work. If you can persuade your boss that no, no, it's all right to have a drink in the middle of the day, it's not going to make you sleepy because it doesn't have hops - you've got it made.


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## GalBrew

I think that you will be pushing shit uphill convincing your boss that the problem is the hops and not the ethanol. Or maybe we could all have a wine or a scotch with lunch?


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## TimT

Admittedly since I work at home and am just a contractor I don't have that much problem convincing my boss....


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## TimT

_wine and scotch with lunch_

Ah, the liquid lunch. But we all know about the 'long lunches' of the 70s, or the great drinkers of the past (Churchill, etc). Perhaps current intolerance to this concept points more to changing attitudes about drink.


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## Hintadupfing

http://www.gruitale.com/intro_en.htm

http://blacksmithsarms.wordpress.com/2013/07/18/hard-core-gruit/


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## GalBrew

TimT said:


> _wine and scotch with lunch_
> 
> Ah, the liquid lunch. But we all know about the 'long lunches' of the 70s, or the great drinkers of the past (Churchill, etc). Perhaps current intolerance to this concept points more to changing attitudes about drink.


Truely a golden age in humanity. Unfortunately no such thing exists in my line of work.


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## TimT

Brew update: yesterday I took a sample from the wormwood porter - now slowing down fermenting, down to about 1.008 gravity - and had a taste test. Disgusting. Like strong medicine. Wormwood is overpowering (and my additions were pretty much the minimum amount recommended on the recipe). So tips for brewing wormwood in future: *really* small amounts, in combination with other herbs. (Or, easier, don't.) (But it would work if used judiciously - small, possibly other herbs and spices to round out the flavour, etc). I make these mistakes so you don't have to!


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## Ross

......It's why we use hops 

Don't get me wrong, I love seeing people brew with ancient herbs & spices, but there's a reason beer is now made with hops - THEY TASTE BETTER.


Cheers Ross


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## TimT

Hops are what my mum would call an acquired taste. Folks who haven't tasted them before would take a bit of persuading before they really took to using them. It's worth it - they can add some wonderful properties to brews - but they are not fundamentally necessary for brewing. Many different flavourings have been used over the centuries, and I think they're probably worth a bit of time to get to know too


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## SergeMarx

Dodonaea viscosa - Native sticky Hop Bush.

Always wanted to try it - would love to find maltable native grain too, but that's possibly asking too much. apart from native rice maybe?


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## thylacine

Czech 'Nettle beer': http://www.beerpal.com/Dum-Kopøivové-Beer/31401/

Visited Prague's Pivovarsky Dum last November. Including their green coloured Nettle beer. Glass walls separated the functioning brewery from the restaurant. Enjoyed viewing three open fermentation tanks bubbling away just two metres away from our table. i.e.. through the glass wall...
Nettle was OK but my focus was on the city's growing "tank beer" offerings. 

Cheers...


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## TimT

Yes! Nettle beer! Last year I made a beetroot beer, for the superficial reason that I just wanted a purple beer. I have one or two recipes for nettle brews, including a nettle mead, lying around. It's a beautiful, diverse plant (you can use it as a rennet substitute in cheesemaking, did you know?) I would have thought, however, that the beer might have coloured the nettle more than the nettle coloured the beer - I'm assuming the beer was a kind of murky green?


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## thylacine

Nettle beer pic:

http://www.beerpal.com/vault/beergrab.asp?ID=31401


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## TimT

I just dug this up: a very useful list of culinary herbs, including some of the classics - hop, mugwort, elder, oak, and thyme. 

Good to know hazel is a potential bittering herb. We've got one in our backyard and I just had a taste of a leaf then. Surprise surprise, it _is _bitter!


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## TimT

Got some gentian today from the very nice people at The Fruit Peddlers in Northcote (thanks for the suggestion, Technobabble!) I reckon it might go very well in a porter.


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## Hintadupfing

I made an oak leaf mead a few years ago. You have to be careful with when you pick the leaves, as well as how much. The young leaves are best, I think, as the tannin builds up as they mature, making them *very* bitter.

Or you could do what I did - use older leaves, and just reduce the amount.


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## TimT

I've read that some oaks are unsuitable for brewing - not sure why.

My latest, today, is bittered with yarrow and hazel leaf - in fact this brew may have some interesting issues which I should be able to update y'all with soon. Watch this space!

_*UPDATE*_: - My beer: the story so far.


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## TimT

Another great list of bittering herbs.


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## Edak

As mentioned on a previous page, lemon myrtle is a nice addition, had a beer with it in there and was blown away! 

I wish I had the time to do such experimental beers, but alas I don't. I am glad though that someone is putting their wort on the line for the sake of others.

I will be brewing a hitachino nest white ale clone using nutmeg, coriander and orange peel but still hopped. That's as close as I get.


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## TimT

I've been tossing around the idea of using Vietnamese mint in a brew, during the secondary ferment, perhaps in combination with kumquats. Wonder if anyone else has tried this idea? The flavour is peppery, if a little delicate, so it might enhance a brew or might get lost completely. What do others think?


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## Edak

To me it doesn't sound appealing, but why not experiment? I had a cumquat tree taller than my house, had to remove it because it made to much mess. The fruit was good for jam but never considered it for beer. Its a sound way to get bitter in there though. Viet mint is best kept for food or mojitos.


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## TimT

With kumquats the sweetness is largely in the skin, you have to pop them in your mouth skin and all. I think the sharp citrusy bitter and the hint of citrusy sweet might go quite well.


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## TimT

In this week's weird-arse herbal experiment: gentian porter!


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## TimT

Tasting the wormwood porter today. It's chilled, and has had time to mellow and mature and carbonate. I think it's benefited greatly. It's still something of an acquired taste but approaching drinkability. The Baron had a taste and she pulled a face but remarked helpfully, 'it's savoury'. (True: it might pair well with other herbs like rosemary). Good: I can use it again, though next time I'll be more aware of how overpowering it can be.


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## TimT

Woah. I'm just tasting a mature gentian and ground rose hip porter and the taste and feel of it are so surprising that I have to share it.

The bitter you get from gentian is clean and strong, and immediately noticeable. Then the flavour changes in your mouth so you get a little sour and sweet as well (sweet mostly from the residual malt, I guess).

There's a bit of ginger in there - yeast loves ginger, it's said to have a lot of wild yeast living on its skin, and I think it used to be recommended, pre-20th century, to give extra zing to brews. That adds to the flavour, giving a kind of heat and to go with the bitterness of the gentian and the sweetness of the malt.

And also the liquor seems a tad more syrupy than beer would be normally - very little seems to have settled out at the bottom of the glass, meaning a lot of those solids are still in suspension. (This is the only time this has happened to me with a brew and I'm not quite sure why this time? It may be a bad sign - yeast too excited? - but I plan to drink the brew quickly, since it was always intended as a bit of an experiment.)

Perhaps as a side effect of the no-hops (hops being anti-bacterial, and all) this brew did get an infection at some point, I'm guessing lacto-bacilli but not sure. At any rate it doesn't seem to have ruined the brew; in fact I wonder if it may not have complemented the fruity sweet-sour-bitterness of the brew, giving it a tiny bit of an acidic tang?

Another thing that I've noticed with a few of my herbal brews, too: the yeast seems to throw off smells that ordinarily the strong hop aromas will block or overpower. Gentian isn't really an aromatic spice (though a fantastic bittering spice and I'd definitely recommend it for use in herbal porters and stouts and any other beer, really, where you want a clean, straightforward bittering effect). So the rule seems to be, make sure you add spices and herbs for the aroma of the beer as well as the flavour.


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## Hintadupfing

Where'd you get the gentian from?

I'm interested more for the purposes of creating kräuter liqueurs than brewing, per se, but experimentation is always an option.


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## TimT

Liquer! Just remember we're not supposed to talk about that sort of thing here 

Got the gentian from a naturopath, Terra Madre in Northcote. It came with a prescription and everything - I'm to take it 'as needed'. They even gave me a sample drop to taste, and that one drop was so mouth puckeringly bitter that I wished I had brought some water with me. (I was too proud to ask for it though!)


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## wide eyed and legless

Is this the same gentian one uses to eliminate crabs?


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## TimT

Probably, how many gentians can there be? If the herbal brewing revolution ever takes off (pfft, yeah right) it would be a good excuse to keep drinking: "you can't be too careful"!

Gentian gives the bitter to Angostura and bitters, a beautiful little tipple.


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## wide eyed and legless

Just checked the Gentian Violet used for pubic lice is also an anti-fungal, it is a crystal not the plant, just so happens to be known as the same name as the plant.


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## philistine

quinine for bittering perhaps? pretty strong, its already used in other beveridges... chinotto, ye olde tonic water..
It would also make your beer glow under UV


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## TimT

I like, you could have a beer that glows in UV.... and protects you from malaria. There's a selling point!


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## Muzduk

I have used lemon verbena before but way back in the days i did K & K without any science or forethought. Can be used dry or fresh


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## TimT

Think they sell some at the naturopath down in Northcote.... be willing to take some advice on how best to impart lemon verbena flavours, though. When I throw it in during secondary fermentation, very little flavour comes out (18-20 degree liquid just doesn't bring out its flavours). You can make a lemon verbena tea at the end of the boil, just throw in the leaves then - but then much of that flavour gets lost during fermentation. I wonder if I could make a strong lemon verbena essence by using a lot of leaf to a little water, and adding this at the end of the fermentation?


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## Edak

Has anybody tried adding Leptospermum (citral variety) leaves to their brews? It smells awesome when you rub it between your fingers but I am yet to do anything interesting with it.


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## philistine

You may find it better with resinous aromatics, like verbena, to do a simple essential oil type steam extraction/distillation first. You'd only be able to use the hydrosol, but I would think that it'd be much more stable and less likely to degrade than raw material or tea that has been introduced late/post boil.


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## philistine

actually, now that I think about it, perhaps using the essential oil itself might work because it would obviously float above the water and possibly impart its flavour into the wort with losing its own integrity... Racking to secondry or bottles would be easy to do in such a way that leaves the oil behind


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## Muzduk

philistine said:


> actually, now that I think about it, perhaps using the essential oil itself might work because it would obviously float above the water and possibly impart its flavour into the wort with losing its own integrity... Racking to secondry or bottles would be easy to do in such a way that leaves the oil behind


May work with bay leaves in this manner too??!! Bay leaf brown ale anyone?


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## TimT

I found this useful link that gives some good advice on how to go about extracting the delicate flavours; I'll be trying it soon, I think.


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## Ninegrain

TimT said:


> Giving a strong dandelion tea a go at the moment. Slightly medicinal taste - but very spicy and a strong earthy bitterness; it could go very well in a brew.
> 
> My previous (very uncontrolled) experiment with lavender - after having tested 1) lavender, steeped in hot water following a boil, 2) lavender, boiled for 10 minutes, and 3) lavender, just steeped in cool water - they all taste the same! But lavender in boiling water tends to colour the water. The taste seems to me one that would work best with light additions of lavender, not strong additions.


Many years ago my dad and I made our own dandelion brew. We collected the roots and roasted them until they were dry and looked like coffee. Made a 'tea' out of it by steeping in hot water, or maybe we boiled it cant remember for sure. Anyway I remember it having an _extremely_ bitter flavour but a really nice roastyness and slight coffee like flavour as well. Was a dark colour too. I would try it again if I had some nice plants and the time.

I think it could be used in a dark ale/stout brew as a partial substitute for some of the darker roasted grains and using a slightly different combination of malts perhaps. Would certainly give allot of bitterness if used in an adequate quantity as well as the nice roasty, coffee flavour.



spassmaschine said:


> I think more or less all wattle seeds in aus are edible, but there's a bit of variation from species to species. From what I've heard, the most palatable wattle seeds come from Wirilda (_Acacia retinoides_), which is more a coastal plant in Vic. No idea whether the seeds from the silver wattles and blackwoods and lightwoods we get along the creek are any good.
> 
> That Drunken Botanist book looks amazing. TimT, is it worth the buy, would you say?


Wattle seeds give a nice coffee-like flavour and aroma to things. Not super strong, kind of subtle though and lacking bitterness. We have made ice-cream with it, used it in in nut mixes for deserts and used in it savoury mixes like dukkah. Very nice spice and it may be nice to use it for subtly flavouring a light-medium style ale or other fruity/nutty style beers to give some spiciness. Or, use it in combination with the dandelion perhaps, in balance with the malts of choice.


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## Ninegrain

Another possible native is _Smilax glyciphylla, _or Native Sweet Sarsaparilla Vine http://bushcraftoz.com/forums/showthread.php?1273-Smilax-glyciphylla-(Sweet-Sarsaparilla).

Back in the day it was used for medicines and even to make the sarsaparilla drink. Apparently, it was better than the plant used for the original northern hemisphere drink. Cant remember the name of the book that was written in but could of been Robinson's plant id book. Its nice to chew and suck on the leaves of it, tastes like sweet aniseed. Nice. Could be nice in a light lager or ale or in a heavy beer where licorice is sometimes used.


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## Vini2ton

Great thread.What do you think a "Bob Marley Lager" would taste like and would my parole officer have any issues with me drinking it?


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## Yob

Like lawn in a glass...

I got some peach mango tea today, thinking of cubing it, only a light bittering and small aroma addition.. 

Maybe do a second with heather, Tim if you are still keen for some, let me know


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## TimT

Very interested Yob, but can't really justify expense at the moment - thanks anyway! Most of my herbs I'm currently pulling up from the front garden.

Going to try another yarrow brew tomorrow, hopefully cranking up the bitterness content a few notches. I've been collecting quite a bit from our yarrow in the front and drying it gradually, including the flower tops which I want to use to give some good aromas.


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## Yob

Wouldn't even know what to charge ya man, you can have it for nix

Ed, can't even remember what I paid for the order I got, was a bulk buy run by citymorgue some time back


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## Mardoo

Vini2ton said:


> Great thread.What do you think a "Bob Marley Lager" would taste like and would my parole officer have any issues with me drinking it?


if you want to enjoy the cousin's special company in a brew you're best off making a tincture and adding it at bottling. If it's the flavor you're after follow standard hopping practice. But as Yob says, mostly grassy for most varieties.


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## TimT

Stephen Harrod Buhner in his book on the subject - _Sacred Healing and Herbal Beers_ or _Sacred Herbal and Healing Beers_, I can never remember which way round - argues plausibly that a lot of herbal beers will have stimulative, psychoactive or psychotropic effects, because by removing hops you're removing the sedative element and you're getting active ingredients from the other herbs you put in. Henbane ale apparently was one fairly common brew that was markedly psychoactive. Heather ale is another interesting one; he says it was apparently highly intoxicating, partly because of the _fogg_, a white moss which commonly grew on heather and which went into the brew along with the rest of the plant.


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## Ninegrain

I can not remember if this has been linked earlier but here it is anyway. An American Hombrewers recipe for Sweet Gale Gruit. http://www.homebrewparty.com/SweetGaleGruit.pdf

The same recipe is likely suitable for use with any herb that has similar characteristics to sweet gale. Native lemon myrtle perhaps?


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## TimT

Really? Same as lemon myrtle? Maybe true, maybe not, I wouldn't hazard a comparison until I've tasted it myself. The recipe looks like it might be worth a try though. I recommend the use of citrus peel as a bittering agent; I made some kumquat saison in summer and it was excellent - I think if you chuck in the peel in during secondary fermentation you'll get a good strong bitter citrussy taste - though it may dissipate after a while, so it's good for fresh beers.


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## Ninegrain

Well not the same, but the characteristics of it such as the type of leaves may make it similar. The flavour would be way different though. Sweet gale is described as resinous, spicy, astringent and bitter in a quick goggle search, lemon myrtle is, well lemon...But I think the basic recipe looks sound. I agree with the peel too, late additions and drink early. Be careful with the pith though if using normal oranges.


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## TimT

My yarrow brew went well, I'm pleased to report, though now I think I probably should have waited before adding the yarrow flower heads as some of the smell will probably be lost when the fermentation kicks off.


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## surly

Hey Tim, I haven't read this whole thread, so sorry if these have been brought up before.
I spoke to you briefly at Thunder road a few months back during one of the first Merry Mashers meetings. Mentioned that I had tried a Black Wattle beer a few years previously, but couldn't remember the brewery.
Have since stumbled across this, not sure if the same or not: http://www.greatsouthernbrewing.com.au/barons-native


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## TimT

I remember that! And yes, a couple of folks have mentioned the black wattle beer in connection with the 'Barons' range so it's a safe bet that that's the one you were talking about.

I got some lemon myrtle a few weeks ago which I want to save up for use down the track in a kind of native-themed beer.


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## Waltzing Matilda

Hops are part of the hemp family, I wonder how a bit of weed would go?
Skunk weed maybe?


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## Yob

Read back through the thread...


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## Online Brewing Supplies

You gotta know how to use it to remove the the grassiness.


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## Mardoo

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> You gotta know how to use it to remove the the grassiness.


Boiling?


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## surly

Mardoo said:


> Boiling?


Use it to make smoked grain?


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## TimT

I've heard tobacco can be used as a flavouring in some drinks (mostly liqueurs).


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## surly

Hey Tim,just had this, pretty tasty. Though maybe a bit much:


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## TimT

YuUM!

Tasted my yarrow pale/wheat beer thingy today. Yarrow flavour is nice - savoury, a hint of spiciness, more subtle than hops.


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## surly

I have no idea what yarrow is like. Sounds interesting though.
The beer I posted above was nice. Good herby/spiceness. Was probably just a little over-done for my taste. Was happy to drink it though.

Pepperberry and myrtle might be a good option for Witbiers.


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## Ninegrain

Your Yarrow beer sounds nice TimT. May I ask what the recipe for it was? I have some yarrow seeds on the way so will give it a go once I have enough of it


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## TimT

Thanks Ninegrain. Hmmm I can't remember all the details - it was kind of a cross between a witbier and pale ale base - but I've checked a few yarrow beer recipes, and the essentials are this: for a five gallon wort you'll need about three-four pounds of yarrow.

Translated to Australian terms, that is about 1.4 - 1.8 Kgs of yarrow for a 23 L wort.

Throw the yarrow in 30 minutes before the end of the boil - stalks and leaves. Cut off the flower heads and chuck them in at flame out as you ought to get more flowery aroma that way.

For my recipe the yarrow I had been collecting and drying from the garden didn't quite come up to the required amount, so I supplemented it with some mugwort for a classic gruit combination. It would also work well with hops only you should be careful not to let the sharp-bitter-spicey hops overwhelm the yarrow.

My main regret about this recipe has been actually that I didn't save a little bit of yarrow/yarrow flower heads for the secondary fermentation, as I feel I would have got even more yarrowy flavour/fragrance that way.

Yarrow is an excellent plant and come mid-late spring you ought to have it growing quite healthily; until that time you ought to be able to pick up dried yarrow (usually the leaves, not the flower heads) at a good organic food dispensary or naturopath. Several types of herbal yarrow tea are pre-packaged and sold at such places.


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## Online Brewing Supplies

Mardoo said:


> Boiling?


Successive rinsing in water till the grassy-ness is gone leaving only the resin.
Nev


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## Ninegrain

TimT said:


> Thanks Ninegrain. Hmmm I can't remember all the details - it was kind of a cross between a witbier and pale ale base - but I've checked a few yarrow beer recipes, and the essentials are this: for a five gallon wort you'll need about three-four pounds of yarrow.
> 
> Translated to Australian terms, that is about 1.4 - 1.8 Kgs of yarrow for a 23 L wort.
> 
> Throw the yarrow in 30 minutes before the end of the boil - stalks and leaves. Cut off the flower heads and chuck them in at flame out as you ought to get more flowery aroma that way.
> 
> For my recipe the yarrow I had been collecting and drying from the garden didn't quite come up to the required amount, so I supplemented it with some mugwort for a classic gruit combination. It would also work well with hops only you should be careful not to let the sharp-bitter-spicey hops overwhelm the yarrow.
> 
> My main regret about this recipe has been actually that I didn't save a little bit of yarrow/yarrow flower heads for the secondary fermentation, as I feel I would have got even more yarrowy flavour/fragrance that way.
> 
> Yarrow is an excellent plant and come mid-late spring you ought to have it growing quite healthily; until that time you ought to be able to pick up dried yarrow (usually the leaves, not the flower heads) at a good organic food dispensary or naturopath. Several types of herbal yarrow tea are pre-packaged and sold at such places.


Cool thanks for that! 1.4kg! Sheesh that's a lot. Dry weight too I guess? Did you have it in a bag and pull it out at the end? I can image that clogging up my ball valve really easily. 

I found some sweet gale too. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/251543263911?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649. Because it is dry it may be able to get past customs...but I have had dried plants pulled up before..


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## TimT

You can use either fresh or dried yarrow.

I just chucked the lot in, though I did filter it out by pouring through cheesecloth after (which was a bit of a bugger). Should work fine in a bag.

You might be able to get the yarrow taste by boiling the water you are going to use for the mash and throwing them in then. Though since advice is typically to add yarrow 30 mins before end of boil perhaps you will lose some of the yarrow flavour that way?


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## panzerd18

Hi TimT, what value do you see in adding the herbs/spices in dry to the primary fermentor as you would dry hopping?

I am very much interested in trying to brew gruit. I think I would appreciate a herbal/spiced tasting beer.

In terms of wormwood, I have heard to only use 10grams per 20Litres. Would this be enough in your experience?


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## TimT

I think it depends a lot on the particular herb you're dry hopping with, but in general you'd add herbs late in the fermentation if you wanted to preserve their more delicate aromas and flavours - the stuff that would be likely to vanish in the intense heat of a boil or in the violence of primary fermentation.

I think I'd always aim at underpitching rather than overpitching wormwood. It really is intense and can be quite unpleasant. Mugwort is a close relative (also in the Artemisia family), tastes better, and can be either grown in your garden or sourced at a good organic food store.

I'll probably be ready to update this page soon on further herbal adventures!


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## panzerd18

Great, I'm keen to hear of anymore experiments you are carrying out.

I am worried about dry hopping or dry herbing as it could lead to a potential infection. I believe hopps have an anti-septic quality that other herbs do not.


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## TimT

Adding as late as possible is probably another good rule to follow, since flavours will either fade away over time, change or be lost easily in a boil. Check out the excellent excel spreadsheet of brewing herbs that Mark linked on I think the first page of this thread for a good list of herbs, how much and when to add them.

I don't think hops are the only herbs with antiseptic qualities (juniper and yarrow and and the artemisias all apparently have antiseptic qualities); at any rate alcohol itself is antiseptic. The wort is at most danger from infection before the yeast really establishes itself in the brew.

As a further guard against infection you could soak your herbs in a small amount of a neutral alcohol (vodka) for a while before chucking the whole lot in the fermenter.

Don't expect to necessarily get strong spicey flavours. Many of the flavours you'll get from traditional gruit herbs - yarrow, rosemary, myrtle - are quite gentle and floral, and you may find some subtle yeast flavours coming through too. (Wormwood and hops are of course both super strong but for that reason I feel they often obscure other flavours and may be omitted).


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## TimT

Okay, time for a little update. We had a long weekend in Bright with my mother-in-law. It was kind of a work weekend; so long as I have my transcription equipment with me I can do a bit of work just about anywhere. Anyway, on Monday I kind of skipped work for a bit to take a long walk in the new growth forests on the hill above town: there you can find plenty of pine, some fir, and heaps of eucalyptus. From the needles of pine and fir you can make.... pine or fir needle beer! And the best time to do it in is - wow, guess what, early spring! Then the trees sprout fresh tips, and the needles are full of the most vitamin C and other goodies, and you'll be able to get the flavour out for the beer.

I took with me two of those green eco-shopping bags, and filled one up with pine needles, the other up with fir needles. Back down the hill I went, to my mother-in-law's house, whereupon after lunch I stripped the needles from their branches and twigs, and plonked them into separate pots of boiling water.

I kept the water level fairly low, as I wanted it to just boil down to an essence that I could store and take back home. The needles fairly quickly lost their colour in the boiling water, and I just kept on stuffing new needles in the pots to add flavour to the final product. In the meantime I sterilised two jars which I poured the pine and fir essence into. The whole exercise took me about an hour and a half. And created a hell of a lot of mess in the kitchen. Anyway....

I plan to use these essences fairly soon in a brew - probably adding some to the water of a mash, and then adding more towards the end of the boil if the flavour isn't rich enough.

This method obviously isn't ideal. Pine needles should really be collected fresh on the day of the brew and thrown into the pot there and then - branches and all. From previous experiments at extracting fir essence, and making spruce beer last year, the flavour tends to be drawn out of the needles fairly quickly, and is fairly resilient during a boil. That being said, the Baron informs me that a lot of the vitamin C (which probably helps to give the needles a bit of a citrussy flavour, which I noticed in my spruce beer last year) will be lost during the boil. So it's also possible the boil-mash-reboil method I'm going to be using with my pine and fir essences will result in a beer that's less flavoursome than it could be.

Still, I'm really looking forward to playing around with pine needle and fir needle essence!


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## panzerd18

Sounds interesting. Might taste like a Christmas tree!

What do you think about Caraway seeds?


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## TimT

I think go for it!

Threw some caraway seeds into an earlier brew which I really wanted to give a type of bready vibe, during secondary fermentation. That beer f*ed up but not because of the seeds; I think there may have been some kind of prior infection in it or something went wrong in the mashing process yielding low fermentable sugars.


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## panzerd18

This is what I am worried about. In the boil the herbs/spices are sterilized by the heat. But dry hopping it, you can open yourself up to all sorts of critters. I would prefer to dry hop all the stuff that doesn't add bitterness.


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## TimT

Obviously you can do some things to prevent infection but in the end you just have to crack open the fermenter and do what you want. Whether that includes throwing in some herbs that you have prepared in a tincture of alcohol, or just risking it and throwing them in dry, or whatever, is up to you. I say just go for it; one way to minimise losses if the brew goes bad or the results are otherwise unsatisfactory might be to do it as a mini brew (which most of mine are).


----------



## panzerd18

Im probably going to make some teas first with the herbs to get an idea of their flavour profile


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## panzerd18

Making a list of possible herbs to use.

The main ones seem to be as follows - 

Bog Myrtle / Sweet Gale
Wormwood
Yarrow
Mugwort
Heather
Juniper
Sage
Others I have found -

Rosemary
Chamomile
Nutmeg
Cinnamon
Caraway seeds
Lemon grass
Sweet orange peel


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## TimT

I think the standard gruit base was yarrow, bog myrtle (myrica gale) and wild rosemary. (Crikey, even the names sound great. Bog myrtle! Wild Rosemary!) Not sure about the bog myrtle; I've never tasted myrtle (maybe it gives a kind of citrussy zing to it?), though the yarrow would have given it tea flavours and some bitterness, while the rosemary would have rounded it out with some spiciness and a savoury spiciness. It must have tasted quite, quite different to modern hopped ales.


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## panzerd18

Seems that Fraoch base is Heather and Bog Myrtle. 

http://youtu.be/s1ckmP6m8fo


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## TimT

Love that video. Weirdo drinks beer for seven minutes while rambling on about it. I've got a heather ale brewing at the moment


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## panzerd18

Nice one. 

Heres a song to listen to while drinking your herbal beer!

http://youtu.be/Ke2CTSpWx2U


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## TimT

Well, today I tasted my Beetroot And Dandelion Beer, which has had just enough time to carb: (Yep: look at that acronym: that's B-A-D Beer, people! And proud of it!) I have only one thing to say about it: brew with dandelion, people!

The earthy taste of the dandelion root worked really well with the darker malt sweetness; the beetroot brought colour and (mostly) fermentable sugars. I chucked some Fuggles in there as well (also for earthiness) but the flavour is pretty unobtrusive. I'm pleased with how this one has turned out.


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## panzerd18

I'm actually fond of dandelion root tea. It's black and bitter and can be quite strong. Would be nice in a porter or stout I would think.

I wonder how spiced tea would go in herbal beer.


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## TimT

Yep - a good dark beer herb. There's a couple of recipes for chai beers out there; of course when it comes to 'spiced tea' there's plenty on the market now. Tea is a good brewing herb I reckon, since it can not only bring a desirable bitterness to balance out the malt sugars, it also has those mysterious tannins that are so desirable for wines and (some) beers.

A few days ago I bottled some rhubarb wine, adding green chai tea to the carbing solution. (It had stuff like cloves in it, possibly something vanilla-y as well). Hopefully when that carbs I'll get a nice well-rounded wine


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## TimT

Got a fir needle ale going at the moment, on an English mild base. It's got the working name - 'Mild Firry Kitten' or something like that. I added most of my remaining fir needles and 1/2 cup of fir essence (1/4 to the mash water, 1/4 in the last 10 minutes of boil. I repitched some MJ British Ale yeast that I'd used on a previous ale last night, and the fermentation is just gathering speed now. The smell over the top of the fermenter is a wee bit sharp (unlike the delightful apple esters this one cast up in previous brews). Maybe that'll benefit the final brew, though: the harsh flavours/smells may get carried off, leaving a more mellow flavour in the ale.

I could definitely taste the fir in the wort, though it wasn't too overpowering. I'll be interested to see how it mellows out over the week, and if any more herbal additions (for bittering or flavour) will be needed.


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## panzerd18

http://youtu.be/nHiiWTh9A0s

Perfect video


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## TimT

Bottled my fir needle ale today. It's good! My main regret is that I didn't add more fir, but that's life. It definitely doesn't need hops. The natural malt and yeast flavours combined with the fir makes it satisfying enough already.


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## mosto

I see you mention chai tea a few posts up. I recently tried HopDog BeerWorks Chai Fighter at their brewery. It's a chai tea-infused Pale Ale. I must admit, I was quite sceptical at first, but it's a really nice beer. I'm not a tea drinker but a quick google shows cardamom as the one of the main ingredients for the spice mix in chai tea, so maybe that would be worth a try.


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## TimT

Yeah, last(?) year I had a bottle of the Yeastie Boys Gunnamatta IPA - an IPA with added earl grey tea. (Earl Grey tea is basically black tea leaves with added bergamot). Must admit I couldn't taste the tea but not a bad beer anyway.


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## mondestrunken

Regarding lavender: I was under the impression only a few varieties of lavender were suitable for culinary use due to camphor?


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## TimT

Yes, someone (Manticle I think?) mentioned that earlier. It may depend how much you use too; there's a lot of folksy recipes involving lavender (lavender scones, etc) which don't say which type to use. You just go out into your garden and pick it.... I made a saison with lavender very early this year. The final ale had just a hint of lavender - it tended to be lost in the overall yeasty flavours, and faded

(Just looked camphor up. In large doses it's toxic (so is everything) but it was used as a flavouring in many sweets in the middle ages).


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## panzerd18

I would have thought you would have to be careful with lavender as the flavor would completely take over.

A hint of something is always good.


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