# Good Grain Crush + 92c Mashout = High Efficiency



## Pumpy (24/1/09)

I have always had about a 75% efficiency mainly due to my old grain mill which done a so! so! job 

Since I have improved my effieciency to 80-85%

1) have purchased the Mill Master grain crusher

2) combined with a Mash out of about 92C 

I have finally changed my target % as some were so way off OG to Style .

Pumpy


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## JasonY (24/1/09)

Curious if you efficiency gain is more to do with the mill? Have you done a brew with just the mill and a 80C mash out? Higher mash out should reduce the wort viscosity and improve your extraction but I would worry about the tannin extraction. Something I've never tested but I am going to trust the literature.

In any event glad to hear you have improved your efficiency.


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## reviled (24/1/09)

Have you tried the crush without the high temp mash out? Just curios


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## Pumpy (24/1/09)

Jason & Reviled 

No I havent tried the grain crush alone but I am sure the Mashout helps rinse the grains better ,I have not noticed any astringency problems but the beer dont hang around long .

The mashout is only in accordance with a Beersmith option 

Pumpy


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## reviled (24/1/09)

Might give it a shot and see if I get increased eff :icon_cheers:


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## MHB (24/1/09)

Hay Pumpy
Your right in thinking that lautering would be faster with hotter water and you will get better extraction.
The problem is that there is always some unconverted starch extracted from the grain during lautering. If the sparge water is over 78 C it will kill off (all right Denature) residual Alpha Amylase, the enzyme if not denatured will breakdown the starch.

Worts made the way you said should test positive for starch (i.e. Iodine Blue) and would be expected to have all the usual problems associated with starchy beer.

Just love brewing compromise compromise and a whole world of yes, but..

MHB


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## Pumpy (24/1/09)

MHB said:


> Hay Pumpy
> Your right in thinking that lautering would be faster with hotter water and you will get better extraction.
> The problem is that there is always some unconverted starch extracted from the grain during lautering. If the sparge water is over 78 C it will kill off (all right Denature) residual Alpha Amylase, the enzyme if not denatured will breakdown the starch.
> 
> ...




Yes Mark on some simple mashes I have reverted to a 60 min mash as conversion is good .

The 90 min mash appears good for bigger grain bills where there may be some lumps not mixed with the water properly 

I do crush the grain as fine as I can without getting a stuck sparge but my system handles it OK .

Pumpy


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## MHB (24/1/09)

Was talking about starch extracted from the inside of the bits of grain, rather than dough balls.
The following is a lift from Brewing Science and Practice.
But in essence, a good crack, slower lautering and keeping the Calcium content in the sparge water up; appear to be the key factors.

If you really want to you can get nearly 100% efficiency, I cant guarantee that the beer wont taste like shit, but thems the trade offs.

Ultimately we all have to make compromise choices and your pallet will have to help you decide, personally I would be reluctant to take a mash over 78 C 

MHB


4.3.8 Wort separation and sparging
At the end of the mash the wort is separated from the residual solids. This may be a rapid
process, as in mash filters, or it may take 1.5-2.5h in some lauter tuns or 4-18h in mash
tuns. An extended run-off period allows residual enzymes to continue acting for at least
part of the time. When a mash tun or lauter tun is used, the first wort to emerge is diluted
with the water that was originally under the plates. The first runnings are generally
returned to the top of the mash and the wort is recycled until it is completely clear and
`runs bright'. Then wort collection begins, the strong wort emerges and gradually the
mash settles onto the plates. Sparging is started and the liquor, sprayed onto the surface
fromrotating sparge-arms, permeates down through the goods, progressively leaching out
and carrying away the remaining extract. In mash tuns this raises the temperature, so the
temperature of the final wort is about 74 oC (165 oF). In contrast, in two- and three-vessel
mashing systems the temperature of the whole mash is usually raised to the sparging
temperature and after wort recirculation (if this is used), the first wort is collected and the
sparge liquor is applied at the same temperature (e.g. 7578 oC; 167172.4 oF).
Although sparging temperatures of up to 80 oC (176 oF) may be used, and the use of
even higher temperatures has been proposed, these are usually avoided because
undesirable flavours and unwanted substances, such as undegraded starch and
hemicelluloses, may be eluted from the goods. This is particularly likely if under-
modified malt or raw cereal adjuncts have been used. At these elevated temperatures
enzyme destruction is rapid, the rates of diffusion of extract materials from the grist
particles is rapid, the rate of wort separation (`filtration') occurs faster, more protein
aggregation occurs and wort viscosity is reduced.

As run off progresses the quality and concentration of the wort declines. The last
runnings contain extract that has a comparatively poor quality (Hind, 1950; Figs 4.15,
4.16). Relative to the extract more high- and low-molecular weight nitrogenous materials,
ash (including phosphates), silicates (mostly from the silica in the malt husk),
polyphenols and astringent substances are dissolved, all these being favoured by the
increasing pH. The specific gravity of the wort rises then declines as the sparge liquor
emerges. As the wort is diluted the fermentability initially increases and finally falls
sharply. Often the pH rises, (e.g. by 0.2-0.7), as the buffering substances are eluted from
the goods. The rise is particularly marked if a bicarbonate sparge liquor is used. This rise
is undesirable and should be checked and the calcium ion concentration of the liquor
should be maintained (Laing and Taylor, 1984). Experimental thick mashes (liquor/grist
2.5/1, i.e. 28.6%) would not run off unless a high concentration of calcium ions (200mg/l)
was used. Thus the last worts are weak, and are relatively rich in poorly flavoured
extractives and potential haze-forming substances. These last runnings, like the press
liquor from the spent grains (Chapter 3), may be stored hot for a short period (to prevent
spoilage by micro-organisms) and then be added to a subsequent mash to recover the
extract. However, to maintain the quality of the beer the weak wort may need to be
clarified by centrifugation to remove suspended solids (particularly lipids) and/or may be
treated with active charcoal (doses of 10-50 g/hl have been suggested) to reduce the
levels of tannins, nitrogenous substances, colour and harsh flavours before it is added to a
later mash (Morraye, 1938; Prechtl, 1967).


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## Pumpy (24/1/09)

MHB said:


> Was talking about starch extracted from the inside of the bits of grain, rather than dough balls.
> 
> But in essence, a good crack, slower lautering and keeping the Calcium content in the sparge water up; appear to be the key factors.
> 
> ...


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## dr K (24/1/09)

I can assume you know the basic concept of mashing.
The warm water gelatinises the starches (mash temp and barley starch gelatinization range happily are in the same band). After gelatinisation the starches (which are big long molecules) are chopped up by the amalyse enzymes into little bits and converted to various sugars depandant on temperature, time, substrate etc. this takes time, not because saccarification takes very long but because it is done a bit at a time. After 60 minutes most all of the straches that would have converted have been, and this is dependant on crush, Ca content, grist composition etc, then you sparge, sparging at say 72C is mainly to make it flow easier, you may still get some geatinisation but there should be enough alpha a to convert that tiny bit. Now hitting your bed with 92C water will cook your enzymes and break out pretty much all that ungelatinised starch and lord knows what else. You may think you are increasing your efficiency into the kettle because you have a higher SG but what you are doing is loading the wort with unfermentable starches and associated garbage. If you are lucky these will crash out in the boil and result in trub, hope you are lucky.

K


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## Thirsty Boy (24/1/09)

Pumpy, I dont have beersmith - whats the actual method you are using??

Is the mashout step a full tilt, raising the whole grain bed to 92 - or is this a cross meaning wording confusion thing and it means you are adding 92 water to get to mashout. What temp is your sparge water and how do you sparge anyway?

Sorry for the 3rd degree, just trying to work out exactly what you are doing and how the positive results can be made to fit with the theory that says "bad" - might give it a go myself once I know whats going on a bit more.

I can sort of see how it might not be so bad if you were batch sparging.. the pH not being so much of an issue then. The same reasons that boiling a decoction isn't bad... not boiling in this case, but also not as thick a portion. Less of each is kinda equal??

I can see MHB's point about starch being a problem though ... there will always be some starch that remains un-gelatinized at mash temps.. the higher temps gelatinize it, but also kill off the enzymes. Be worth doing a starch test just to see. Still, if the beer is good, who cares.

Thirsty


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## Pumpy (24/1/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Pumpy, I dont have beersmith - whats the actual method you are using??
> 
> Is the mashout step a full tilt, raising the whole grain bed to 92 - or is this a cross meaning wording confusion thing and it means you are adding 92 water to get to mashout. What temp is your sparge water and how do you sparge anyway?
> 
> ...




Thirsty , for a 40 litre batch 

I mash in at say 66C
and hold for an hour or 90 mins depepnding on the grain bill
Mash out involves adding 10 litres water at 92C
Draining the Mash tun into the kettle 
Batch Sparge with rest of the water at 75.5C in two batches 
I usually split it and wait 10 mins before draining 


I understand the addition of 10 litres of 92C hot water ceases the enzyme convertion of any more starch .


Pumpy


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## Benniee (24/1/09)

MHB said:


> Worts made the way you said should test positive for starch (i.e. Iodine Blue) and would be expected to have all the usual problems associated with starchy beer.



Have experienced this one myself - with my mash out and sparge temps get away from me on a couple of brews (high 80's). Got a starch haze in the finished beer that just wouldn't drop out.

Solution was to drink it quick before it staled - so it's not all bad  

Now I keep my temps to mid to high 70's and my beers are noticeably clearer.

Benniee


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## Pumpy (24/1/09)

Benniee said:


> Have experienced this one myself - with my mash out and sparge temps get away from me on a couple of brews (high 80's). Got a starch haze in the finished beer that just wouldn't drop out.
> 
> Solution was to drink it quick before it staled - so it's not all bad
> 
> ...



90 min boil should take care of the starch haze 

Pumpy


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## buttersd70 (24/1/09)

Pumpy said:


> Thirsty , for a 40 litre batch
> 
> I mash in at say 66C
> and hold for an hour or 90 mins depepnding on the grain bill
> Mash out involves adding _10 litres water at 92C_



Ah, ok. It's only the _water _that is at 92, you're not raising the grain bed to that temperature....92c water will raise you to 'normal' mashout of 76ish degrees.


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## Pumpy (24/1/09)

buttersd70 said:


> Ah, ok. It's only the _water _that is at 92, you're not raising the grain bed to that temperature....92c water will raise you to 'normal' mashout of 76ish degrees.



Yes that sounds right Buttersd it wont raise it the full amount only 

Pumpy


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## Trough Lolly (24/1/09)

Interesting thread - the quest for getting more out of the mash, that's desireable...

I batch sparge. I've improved my efficiency by steadily increasing the sparge volume - to a point. Perhaps I should consider a gypsum addition to the last infusion? On the UK forums, there's plenty of talk about using Calcium.

Cheers,
TL


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## MHB (24/1/09)

Got me to, I thought you were upping the temp of the mash to over 90 C; sounds like you could add another degree or two with out too much danger.

Had a moment there were I thought you were going for a new style of beer something like Pumpkin Soup

Ok crappy pun sorry but I couldnt resist.

MHB


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## Ross (24/1/09)

Pumpy,

For a 40l batch adding 10L at 92c isn't going to get you even close to 80c, you could easily add it hotter.
I add 9L of boiling (well 99c) to a 26L batch & it brings the mash up to approx 78c.
Not sure what your mash out temp was previously, but I'm guessing your increased efficiency is mainly down to the increased temp as your previous mash outs were probably pretty cool.


Cheers Ross


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## Pumpy (24/1/09)

Ross said:


> Pumpy,
> 
> For a 40l batch adding 10L at 92c isn't going to get you even close to 80c, you could easily add it hotter.
> I add 9L of boiling (well 99c) to a 26L batch & it brings the mash up to approx 78c.
> ...




There you go , thanks Ross , you know what its like when the old scaremonger's get hold of a good story and beat it up a bit have everyone questioning what is right and wrong .

Pumpy


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## PostModern (24/1/09)

Pumpy said:


> There you go , thanks Ross , you know what its like when the old scaremonger's get hold of a good story and beat it up a bit have everyone questioning what is right and wrong .
> 
> Pumpy



Not scaremongering, they were just taking these words:



Pumpy said:


> 2) combined with a Mash out of about 92C



with their normally accepted meaning, which is not how you used them. "Mashing out at 92C" means raising the temperature of the mash to 92C, not adding 92C water... see the distinction? It's kinda important for everyone to use the same language.


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## Pumpy (24/1/09)

PostModern said:


> Not scaremongering, they were just taking these words:
> 
> With their normally accepted meaning, which is not how you used them. "Mashing out at 92C" means raising the temperature of the mash to 92C, not adding 92C water... see the distinction? It's kinda important for everyone to use the same language.





It does say on the Beersmith printout 

'Mashout: Add 9.90 L of water at 92C'

was I wrong to call it a '92C Mashout' ?

I have always thought the 'Mash out' was a single addition of water to cease the enzyme activity and the temperature referred to the temperature of the water being added not the temperature of the mash .

But then again for years I thought the Kettle was for boiling the water and the Hot Liquor tank was for boiling the wort !


Pumpy h34r:


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## PostModern (24/1/09)

Pumpy said:


> It does say on the Beersmith printout
> 
> 'Mashout: Add 9.90 L of water at 92C'
> 
> ...



I always thought mashout temp referred to the temperature of the mash, but you put a seed of doubt in my mind. Palmer says:



> Mashout is the term for raising the temperature of the *mash* [to x degrees.]



(my emphasis).

Never mind, sounds like you've found a good thing. I generally sparge with water in the high 80's but I fly sparge with my lightly cracked floating mash. I would quote my efficiency with this method, but Beersmith doesn't seem to have a buckets of malt to OG conversion.


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## Darren (24/1/09)

Brings me to yor original post Pumpy. What were you doing before you decided to add 92 C water to the mash.

Yes, its your new mill, not the temp of the water of the sparge water.

cheers

Darren


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## dr K (24/1/09)

I brew outside
It gets cold here in winter
If I add 10kg of cracked grain (say at 10C) to 25 litres of mashing liquor at 80C, this means I am mashing at 80C..gee learn something new every day..someone knows it makes sense.

K


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## Benniee (26/1/09)

Pumpy said:


> 'Mashout: Add 9.90 L of water at 92C'



I was thinking you were getting the temp of the grain bed up to 92C, like the others that were warning you of the potential risks. Sorry - didn't mean to do any "scaremongering" but just relaying experiences of mine when the grain bed temp creeps up too high.

Benniee


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## Fourstar (26/1/09)

Taken from one of my recipe's in beersmith :


Mash In - Add 14.00 L of water at *71.4 C.* *Step Temp -* *65.0* *C *60 min 
Mash Out - Add 10.00 L of water at *96.3* *C. **Step Temp -* *75.6* *C *10 min 

I can see how pumpy got confused.


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## Thirsty Boy (27/1/09)

Thanks for the reply and clarification Pumpy - I suspected that it was a possible crossover of language rather than a hugely different technique. Thats why I asked

TB


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## technocat (4/4/09)

I find that Beersmith temps are usually 3-4C below my achievable temps so I usually have to go higher. Not sure whether there is an adjustment in the program to compensate. I mash out at 70C for 20 minutes regardless of what my mash in temp was. My extraction % is in the low seventies consistent after getting out of the sixties in the early days but feel I need to do better. I batch sparge at 78C over 40 minutes. <_<


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## mash head (4/4/09)

So many different sources of input with different deffinitions and different units of measure. No wonder I get confused too early for a beer to stop brain whinging though. It sounds like brewing was the winner here. 
Cheers Greg


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## Adamt (4/4/09)

Just a little hint, this thread is a few months old.


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/4/09)

I allways use boiling water to sparge , as I notice it helps rinse the sugars and increase eff%. Crush also has a big effect to. I t did a batch one day after the kids had been fiddling with the mill and got a corse crush with nearly no flour, and eff% when crap.


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## samhighley (4/4/09)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I allways use boiling water to sparge



Mmmm, tannins.


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## tourist (4/4/09)

Sammy said:


> Mmmm, tannins.


From experience?


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## samhighley (4/4/09)

tourist said:


> From experience?



From the bible, How To Brew, on sparging:



John Palmer said:


> The analogy to a tea bag is a good one in that if the grain is left in for too long (hours), astringent tannin compounds (a.k.a. phenols) can be extracted from the grain husks. The compounds give the wort a dry puckering taste, much like a black tea that has been left to steep too long. The extraction of tannins is especially prevalent if the water is too hot - above 170F. Previous practices regarding the use of specialty grains had the brewer putting the grain in the pot and bringing it to a boil before removal. That method often resulted in tannin extraction.


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## samhighley (4/4/09)

Temperature


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## Fourstar (4/4/09)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I allways use boiling water to sparge , as I notice it helps rinse the sugars and increase eff%. Crush also has a big effect to. I t did a batch one day after the kids had been fiddling with the mill and got a corse crush with nearly no flour, and eff% when crap.



Hey Ducatiboy, have a listen to the Efficiency podcast done by basicbrewing " *March 19, 2009 - Mash and Lauter Efficiency"*. John Palmer has some good discussions on his theroies for efficiency.

Crush - Effects the speed of enzyme conversion.
Mah Temp - Hotter the better for enzyme activity, the lower the temp, the longer the mash time.
Lauter Tun - Shallower allows for a more even enzyme activity and temperature distribution.
Mashout Temp - Hotter the better to liquify the mash
Manifold - This is the key, Depending on your sparging type, batch, fly, no sparge. Will greatly effect the Runoff Efficincy

obviously if you follow the same procedure every time you do a mash, if onevariable is out (e.g. Crush) and you mash time is not adjusted for it, your efficiency will cosequently be down. Its a really good podcast, opened my eyes to afew of the myths out there. I'd suggest it to anyone wanting to under stand how efficincy may be improved, not necessisarily to improve your own efficncy as it may not always be possible with your choice of setup.

Cheers! :beerbang:


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## Fourstar (4/4/09)

Sammy said:


> Mmmm, tannins.



Samy,

I think you are wrong there. Ducati is implying he fills is lauter tun with boiling water to bring the tun UP to mashout temperature (74-77 deg)

Not to bring the whole mash up to a mashout temperature of 100deg C.


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## tourist (4/4/09)

Sammy said:


> From the bible, How To Brew, on sparging:


A simple "no" would be fine.


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## Thirsty Boy (4/4/09)

Fourstar said:


> Samy,
> 
> I think you are wrong there. Ducati is implying he fills is lauter tun with boiling water to bring the tun UP to mashout temperature (74-77 deg)
> 
> Not to bring the whole mash up to a mashout temperature of 100deg C.




maybe thats what he means?? Stu is a sensible kind of a fella so I assume it is, but who knows??

I get accused fairly often of writing overly long posts ... but short posts can leave you short on information.

From where I sit:

If stu is doing a single runoff batch sparge - adding boiling water is pretty much what you would do
If he is doing a normal 2 runoff batch sparge - then its not what I would do, but if he_ doesn't _do a traditional mash out _before_ he sparges, then it is still probably just fine
If he does raise the mash to a M/O temp before he sparges with boiling water - then I can see potential issues and would question then technique
If he continuous or "fly" sparges - then I see all sorts of potential for the kinds of troubles people were talking about when they were discussing the original post topic

Most of us will at first assume (at least briefly) that people brew the way we do - so some people wouldn't bat an eyelid at the boiling water and some would gasp in horror. And they are all _right_ from their own point of view.

One or two lines posts are easy to read, fast and sometimes right to the point - but life would be less confusing if when people post (and read posts) they remember that not everyone does things the way they do it. A few details can help.


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## Fourstar (4/4/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> maybe thats what he means?? Stu is a sensible kind of a fella so I assume it is, but who knows??



Maybe next time i will pose the question  .

Any further details there Stu?


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## Trent (4/4/09)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I allways use boiling water to sparge , as I notice it helps rinse the sugars and increase eff%. Crush also has a big effect to. I t did a batch one day after the kids had been fiddling with the mill and got a corse crush with nearly no flour, and eff% when crap.



If he uses boiling water to achieve mashout temp, then I undestand that, but he specifically says that he uses boiling water to sparge.
And I have experienced tannins in a double batch after accidentally allowing my second batch sparge (when i used to batch sparge) to get up into the high 80's. Both batches were undrinkable and had to be turfed, so the whole bit about tannins, in my opinion and experience, is not a myth. Mind you, it is very easy to avoid them. And if your efficiency is a little low, throw some more grain in at the start.
All the best
T


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## samhighley (4/4/09)

tourist said:


> A simple "no" would be fine.



No. 

I guess what you're implying is that because i've taken the advice of others who have taken the time to research an issue, rather than try it myself, then somehow my opinion is not valid?


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## samhighley (4/4/09)

In my opinion, adding boiling water to your mash tun if you're batch sparging is asking for trouble.

Even if, after adding all the boiling water, your mash temperature ends up at, say, 80C, at some point a whole lot of the grain is going to be subjected to very high temperatures.

If you don't believe me, then get a bucket and fill it with 40C water. This is a perfectly tolerable temperature (I bathe at 40C) for a human, so plunge your hand into the water. Now take a kettle full of boiling water and pour it into the water right next to your hand  I'd be surprised if you don't suffer a serious burn.

Now think about that from the grains point of view.


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## Fourstar (4/4/09)

Sammy said:


> Now think about that from the grains point of view.



Unfortunatly no everyone is using a HERMS or RIMS, how would YOU get your mashout temp to 77 deg without adding near boiling water to bring it up to temp without one of those methods? macro/micro breweries fly sparge with 100 deg C water. How is this an issue? I believe it would be extended rests with the grain husks to extract tannins. SAy 10-15 mins before the sparge above 77deg temps. More so in darker beers drawing out astringent carcenogens from the burnt husks over say a pilsner.


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## mash head (4/4/09)

Adamt said:


> Just a little hint, this thread is a few months old.




Am sure that the info is just as valiid today as it was then or has there been some ground breaking new work done? 
Happy brewwing. Greg


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## tourist (4/4/09)

Sammy said:


> No.
> 
> I guess what you're implying is that because i've taken the advice of others who have taken the time to research an issue, rather than try it myself, then somehow my opinion is not valid?


Not at all - your opinion (as with everyone else's) is completely valid. I have a belief that these, and many other aspects of brewing should be thought about and tested with a bit of creative experimentation and *gasp* occasional scepticism. By giving someone a two-word (I thought it sounded smug) opinion based on a dude's book (yes there are undoubtedly more), without actually having any experience only served to limit others' inclination to explore these aspects of this great hobby.

I don't care who's right - I'm almost sure you are, but I'm not 100% sure and I hope there are others like me (only much more handsome).


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## tourist (4/4/09)

Sammy said:


> (I bathe at 40C)


Can you post a photo?


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## Smashin (4/4/09)

Sorry if this is a bit off topic and gratis that I haven't read the entire thread.

I would consistently achieve high 70's and a one time 81%  

I moved 10k down the road and have never hit anything over 72% generally mid to high 60's (16months of this now).

I tried crushing differences, hot sparge water (~95+), run off rates, .......... to no avail.

A lingering though was the water change may have thrown my mash ph off, given how soft the water is here in tassie i kept dismissing this being such a significant cause (old water was from the south esk river (same as boags), the new water is sourced from the meander river, both <70ppm tds). On top of this my ph Meter is calibrated to 4.0 on each brew day.

I finally bit the bullet and bought 5.2pH buffer from ross just to put my mind at ease. brewed this morning and couldn't belive it 84% efficiency   best ever. This has also convinced me that my 4.0ph calibrating solution is knackered (possibly some PWB got in there ??)...can't express just how relieved I am to be back on track.

For reference I flysparge using sparge water at ~85deg, this keeps my grain bed around 76deg. Mashout is typically 77 to allow for a bit of temp drop on the 15min settling time before sparging.

my 2c...don't underestimate water chemistry and buffers


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/4/09)

I have measured the grist temp after adding boiling water at EVERY sparge...

Be lucky to get the grain bed temp above 80* after 3 sparges with boiling water..

You guys are way of track when it comes to temp and tannins


Think about it

I drain, re-circulate and lose temp every time ...takes a lot energy to raise the grain bed temp

Carry on with your theory boys....

I will stick with my known practical methods B)


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## dr K (4/4/09)

Tea needs to be made with boiling water, better still if the pot is pre-heated and always bring the kettle to the pot. Water comes "off the boil" very quickly and I suspect that DB Stu's "boiling" water is a long way off the boil when it hits the grain bed, indeed his observations suggest it is only marginally at best above the bed temp.

K


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## Sammus (4/4/09)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I have measured the grist temp after adding boiling water at EVERY sparge...
> 
> Be lucky to get the grain bed temp above 80* after 3 sparges with boiling water..
> 
> ...



Ah reading throught this I thought you meant you were actually sparging with boiling water, in the true sense of the word. So by sparge here you actually mean batch "sparging" - or rinsing as it should be called. Makes perfect sense now 

Sorry, just my pedantic nature...sparging by definition in our application is sprinkling or trickling the rinsing water in slowly while running off at an equal rate, what people often call 'fly sparging'. But the trickling low flow part is where the word sparge came from, I don't like the use of 'sparge' when talking about batch "sparging" because it really isn't sparging at all.. its just a kind of rinsing. IT should be fly rinsing = sparging, and batch rinsing. But I'm not sure how many will agree with me on that.. just a pet annoyance of mine


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## Ducatiboy stu (5/4/09)

OOhhh FFS

Give me some vaso.... h34r:


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## samhighley (5/4/09)

tourist said:


> Can you post a photo?



You don't want that. Conroy would be all over the place in a flash.


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## samhighley (5/4/09)

tourist said:


> tested with a bit of creative experimentation and *gasp* occasional scepticism.


I'm all for experimentation, but experimenting with tannin extraction is not something I have time for. I constantly achieve 80% efficiency from mash tun to boiler, so I don't really want to bother trying to raise efficiency a few points at the risk of something else happening. Grain is cheap, time is not.



tourist said:


> By giving someone a two-word (I thought it sounded smug) opinion based on a dude's book


Apologies if I sounded smug. It wasn't my intention. Palmer is an excellent read, and I highly recommend it if you haven't read it yet.


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## SJW (5/4/09)

Hey Pumpy, This is exactly what I found when I started cracking my own grain and using the Beersmith program TO THE LETTER, but I got flamed when I said it in an old post that my eff. went up heaps buy mashing out with nearly boiling water. Like what was revealed earlier in this thread that it is only meant to raise the total mash temp to 76 deg or so. 
Keep up the good work.

Steve


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## tourist (5/4/09)

Sammy said:


> I'm all for experimentation, but experimenting with tannin extraction is not something I have time for. I constantly achieve 80% efficiency from mash tun to boiler, so I don't really want to bother trying to raise efficiency a few points at the risk of something else happening. Grain is cheap, time is not.


I can understand that you are not concerned about raising your efficiency. As someone who would someday like to judge/critique my own and others' beer and give sound brewing advice to brewers, I hope to find the time (and grain) to do some experiments that exposes the cause and effects of tannin extraction and other flaws. I guess Im a 'learning by doing' kind of guy.

To date I have successfully generated multiple flaws in various beers - now I just need to know how to get rid of them.


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## Fourstar (5/4/09)

Then the question boils down to decoction mashing.. no one bats an eyelid when you are boiling grain and husk... some with low and high ratios of grain:water.

You are keeping grain at 100deg C for up to 20 mins rather than pouring boiling water on your grain to achieve safe a mashout temp which equalises within 30 seconds with some constant stirring. Riddle me that!


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## tourist (5/4/09)

I put the same point forward on another forum - someone pointed out that the low pH of the boiling mash may stabilise the tannins as opposed to the sparge process that sees the pH elevate to tannin-leeching proportions.

Still not convinced, but.

There is OBVIOUSLY more to tannin extraction than temps alone if people are boiling the piss (literally) out of their grain and getting way with it.


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## samhighley (5/4/09)

tourist said:


> if people are boiling the piss (literally) out of their grain


Literally? Are you saying your beer has piss in it, pre-boil?


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## tourist (5/4/09)

Sammy said:


> Literally? Are you saying your beer has piss in it, pre-boil?


Who boils beer? Now that's crazy-talk!


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