# Infections From Hell And How You Solved Them.



## PistolPatch (4/8/09)

I’m fastidious in my cleanliness but I have had what I think is a bacterial acetyldehyde infection for what must be, embarrassingly, almost 2 years now. We all have different palates and mine can’t stand this infection while other brewers don’t find it offensive. (I entered the least worst beer I had at the time – a Munich Dunkell - in Royal Perth Beer Show only so as I could get a ticket to exhibitor’s tasting and it got a bronze!)

There have been a few brewers on this forum (including very experienced ones) who have had these infections from hell. Heard of another experienced brewer tonight unfortunately. The worst case I know resulted in 1500lts of undrinkable beer over a very long period. The culprit? Well, that one was a kettle ball-valve. No matter how clean ball-valves smell, you don’t know until you pull them apart completely.

Later in this thread, I might go into the stupid mistakes I made in trying to source the problem, the difficulties I had in even identifying it and a few of the steps I actually did do correctly. A lot of the frustrating process I went through was caused by a simple stroke of bad luck at the beginning but in hindsight, I could have found the problem a hell of a lot faster if I had an easy to follow check-list. It has been a bastard to find though.*

I’ll whack a post in directly below this one with the beginnings of a check-list. It is pretty much a copy of a post I wrote recently.

[Someone else wrote a check-list in the last day or so on a similar topic that was very good. (I can’t look it up now though as my internet is buggered and I have to get a technician out apparently so any posts I do now are by my using my mobile phone as a modem!) Hopefully this person will see this thread and add to the list in Post #2.]

Feel free to add to the list I will start below no matter how stupid or obvious your suggestion is. I will clean the list up as the thread progresses and then prioritise it. I hope that this thread might result in a nice check-list we can put it in the articles section of AHB.

Spot!
Pat

*I’ll add my culprit to the list later when my internet is working properly . I doubt it will appear on the list because it surprised the hell out of me! (Fingers crossed it is what I think it is otherwise I am never brewing again!!!)


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## PistolPatch (4/8/09)

As I said above, please add to the list below as I will clean it up and prioritise it later. For example, some of the things I wrote below were written to someone in the US with a unique water profile. These would not be relevant for most Australian brewers. Just add anything you can think of! Just copy and paste my quote below and add to it... 



> So, here's a start to a checklist that I reckon you should consider fully before you next brew. Making the changes below will certainly do no harm at all.
> 
> 1. Completely pull apart, clean and sterilise any ball-valves you are using in your brewing starting from the kettle tap on.
> 2. Check any hoses you use during the brewing process. Check they are food-grade and rated to above the maximum temperature they are being exposed to.
> ...


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## petesbrew (4/8/09)

Great idea for a thread, PP.

As a novice AG'er, I'm really starting to get picky with my brews, finding weird flavours in there. The problem is actually identifying them.


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## eamonnfoley (4/8/09)

Good idea Pat. 

Chlorine/chloramines is one that might be underestimated, albiet not exactly an infection issue. I noticed a clear difference when carbon filtered water was used. Campden tablets/sodium met is another way to treat your water.


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## PistolPatch (4/8/09)

Thanks Pete and foles. (foles has had first-hand experience here ) I'll add foles' thing on chlorine to the list...


1. Completely pull apart, clean and sterilise any ball-valves you are using in your brewing starting from the kettle tap on.
2. Check any hoses you use during the brewing process. Check they are food-grade and rated to above the maximum temperature they are being exposed to.
3. If you are using a counter-flow chiller or a plate chiller, you need to have a very good look at whether they are actually sterile. Running caustic through them might dislodge some surprising lumps!
4. You need to buy whatever it is needed to raise or lower your pH. Have that on hand and after you add your grain to the mash and agitate it, use your pH strips and additive to get your mash to within 5.2 - 5.6 within say 5 minutes but don't be worried if it takes a lot longer.
5. Use yeast nutrient ten minutes before your boil ends. Use the nutrient not the energizer. Using double what they recommend probably wouldn't hurt given your profile but I should be checked on this.
6. If you are using liquid yeast, how are you using it? (We need more info here I think such as whether you are using a starter.)
7. Completely pull apart, clean and sterilise all of your fermenter and "break" the tap if you have one.
8. Aerate your wort vigorously.
9. Be very sparing when using bleach. Only minute amounts are needed and cold water should be used. A capful of bleach in a 25 lt fermenter is probably about 50 times what is needed. (I'll look that figure up but it is surprisingly low.) Hot water neutralises bleach so ensure you use hot water to rinse off bleach. Do this thoroughly to avoid a medicinal, bandaid or rubbery taste. Don't put bleach near ball-valves as low concentrations will certainly impart a medicinal flavour.


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## PistolPatch (4/8/09)

petesbrew said:


> Great idea for a thread, PP.
> 
> As a novice AG'er, I'm really starting to get picky with my brews, finding weird flavours in there. The problem is actually identifying them.



I'll write more later Pete when I write up my mistakes but make sure you find yourself a recipe you love and make it your base recipe. Brew it 3 times and then you know you can trust it. God knows how many recipes I brewed in the last two years and I learned nothing. I will have to brew them all again.

I had a base recipe but didn't trust it. I blamed everything else. I see now that I have been a total idiot!


Pat


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## LLoyd (5/8/09)

Thanks Patch!

We'll get those nasty little so and sos. Cheers for the help with our ball valve.


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## acoulson (5/8/09)

Hi all,

Nice posts and topic.

Hope Im not hijacking but I worked as a microbiologist in a commercial brewery for about 6 years so I would just like to add a few points to those already mentioned.

The advice about keeping everything clean and pulling your equipment apart is golden and really the key. It may look clean, but you have to watch for bio-films which are very thin layers of microbes that build up with time on the insides of pipes and valves and tanks. It helps to use an acid based cleaner once ever 10 or so brews to clean the beer-stone which is the "home base" for bacteria and yeast.

You are pretty safe as long as your wort is above 70 degrees because there are no bugs that can cause infections in beer that can survive that temperature for more than a minute or two. Basically be really careful once you start to chill and aerate. 

Once you have a bad infection there is really nothing you can do. Tip it and clean your gear really well and start again. We use PAA ( peracetic acid) in the brewing industry because it is effective and you can flush the residual in the line directly with product. Be careful with chlorine based sterilisers. Residuals will form a strong medicinal taint from a compound called a chlorophenol.

So you know what your looking at, here are the main culpruts and their flavours and habits

Lactic acid bacteria infection - main product is diacetyl - Butterscotch flavour- they like storage conditions 

Acetic acid bacteria infection - main products are organic acids - sour and low pH- they prefer more oxygen so watch early ferment and seconday in bottles and anytime air is present

Wild yeast - often produce phenols - clove like flavour or medicinal - anytime but especially watch your pitching yeast if your propagating yourself

cont... next post


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## acoulson (5/8/09)

When identifying a potential infection use all your senses and tools at your disposal. 

Sight- almost all infections show up as a haze or ropiness in the beer

Taste- phenols and sourness are obvious signs

Smell - diacetyl, sulphur and DMS (canned corn smell).

Touch- when you open a bottle and it gushes up and hits you in the eye! (I've experienced it)

Analytical - any pH below 3.9 is suspect. Hyper attenuation -if your gravity is extremely low its probably infected.

Also its worth a note that many of these examples are due to brewing problems too so Don't jump to conclusions. 

When finding solutions, look back at when the problem started and when you made changes. Usually you can trace the problem to a change of raw materials, brewing method or new piece of plant. Keep good records of your pH's, gravitys and yeast strains used to build up a picture of normal brewing so you can identify change more easily.

Sorry about the long post. 
If you have any questions feel free to pm me . This is my pet field and I could just go on and on and on about it. :icon_cheers: Adam


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## browndog (5/8/09)

Pat,
If you think the problem is an infection in your fermenter, you could try a no-chill straight to the fermenter directly after flame out, cool overnight then pitch. If you get the taste as the wort is fermenting, I would doubt it is an infection. 

cheers

Browndog


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## Maxt (5/8/09)

Another tip is to run 3-4L of wort through the tap during the boil, and then chuck it back in.


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## Steve (5/8/09)

Maxt said:


> Another tip is to run 3-4L of wort through the tap during the boil, and then chuck it back in.



Good tip Matt. Will give that a go.
Cheers
Steve


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## chappo1970 (5/8/09)

Having been thru my own infection HELL over the last 3 brews. Can I suggest we make this an *AG wiki or stickie* please? As the information in this thread already is gold. I'll give my story later on tonight as it's a ripper story of epic proportions where it's man vs beast. I call it the wild yeast battle at Chappo Manor... (god I'm a dick!  )


Cheers

Chappo


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## boybrewer (5/8/09)

What a great ldea. I have had my first infection and it wasn't due to cleanliness. I had a yeast starter going from a previous batch. I didn't do the taste test and ended up throwing out a double batch, 46lt that hurt,it turned out the yeast was infected, it had such a sourness to it that when l took the lids off the fermenters and stuck my head in for a sniff all l got was burnt nostrels. :icon_vomit: 
The moral of this story is like any good chef taste before you pitch.


Cheers
Mike (BB)


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## Leigh (5/8/09)

beersolutionsjapan said:


> The advice about keeping everything clean and pulling your equipment apart is golden and really the key. It may look clean, but you have to watch for bio-films which are very thin layers of microbes that build up with time on the insides of pipes and valves and tanks. It helps to use an acid based cleaner once ever 10 or so brews to clean the beer-stone which is the "home base" for bacteria and yeast.
> 
> You are pretty safe as long as your wort is above 70 degrees because there are no bugs that can cause infections in beer that can survive that temperature for more than a minute or two. Basically be really careful once you start to chill and aerate.
> 
> Once you have a bad infection there is really nothing you can do. Tip it and clean your gear really well and start again. We use PAA ( peracetic acid) in the brewing industry because it is effective and you can flush the residual in the line directly with product. Be careful with chlorine based sterilisers. Residuals will form a strong medicinal taint from a compound called a chlorophenol.



...being a chemist, I cringe sometimes at the hyper-treatment some people give their kit to try and clean and sanitise...

Building on your point, and PP's second point about using pieces how they were intended:

Read the instructions and don't use cleaners/sanitisers for what they weren't intended for. More is quite often less effective or worse, destructive. You can quite easily create a porous surface on hoses if you treat them the wrong way...can add nasty flavours to your brew and provides a nice hiding place for infections.


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## raven19 (5/8/09)

1. Completely pull apart, clean and sterilise any ball-valves you are using in your brewing starting from the kettle tap on.
2. Check any hoses you use during the brewing process. Check they are food-grade and rated to above the maximum temperature they are being exposed to.
3. If you are using a counter-flow chiller or a plate chiller, you need to have a very good look at whether they are actually sterile. Running caustic through them might dislodge some surprising lumps!
4. You need to buy whatever it is needed to raise or lower your pH. Have that on hand and after you add your grain to the mash and agitate it, use your pH strips and additive to get your mash to within 5.2 - 5.6 within say 5 minutes but don't be worried if it takes a lot longer.
5. Use yeast nutrient ten minutes before your boil ends. Use the nutrient not the energizer. Using double what they recommend probably wouldn't hurt given your profile but I should be checked on this.
6. If you are using liquid yeast, how are you using it? (We need more info here I think such as whether you are using a starter.)
7. Completely pull apart, clean and sterilise all of your fermenter and "break" the tap if you have one.
8. Aerate your wort vigorously.
9. Be very sparing when using bleach. Only minute amounts are needed and cold water should be used. A capful of bleach in a 25 lt fermenter is probably about 50 times what is needed. (I'll look that figure up but it is surprisingly low.) Hot water neutralises bleach so ensure you use hot water to rinse off bleach. Do this thoroughly to avoid a medicinal, bandaid or rubbery taste. Don't put bleach near ball-valves as low concentrations will certainly impart a medicinal flavour.
10. Remove taps from fermentors to clean them, clean around the thread fermentor area. Have spare taps on hand just incase
11. Remove the rubber seal in the fermentor lid (if you use a lid)
12. Taste your yeast starter, learn what it should taste like so you know you are pitching a viable yeast
13. Clean your no-chill cubes (if you no chill) straight away after use. Leave a mild solution of bleach/Napisan and water in them and shake them every time you remember (from the no-chill thread I think).
14. Clean up all equipment straight after brewing (general housekeeping I dare say) 

Edit: Great topic Pistol.


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## warra48 (5/8/09)

OK, this is post fermentation, but I has some infection issues earlier last year. One of my brews made a bit of a mess around Ross' bar, unfortunately.

I tracked mine down to 2 reasons eventually.

1. Using recycled ginger beer bottles. I don't think I ever was able to really get them clean and sanitised properly. I don't use them anymore.

2. My little bottler. The bit at the bottom of the spring thing has a tiny rubber seal. I had never noticed it before, but it had collected a small amount of crud under the rubber seal. I dismantled it, cleaned it properly, and sanitised it again. I now dismantle it every brew to clean and sanitise it.

I've fortunately not had any further infections since fixing these issues.


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## Jesse (5/8/09)

how do you do "break" the tap???? Mine has gunk in it some where and I can't get it out

" 7. Completely pull apart, clean and sterilise all of your fermenter and* "break" the tap if you have one*."

also can the sour taste be wheat?

I have one brew that has wheat in it and it's sour. Is that normal?


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## chappo1970 (5/8/09)

Jesse said:


> how do you do "break" the tap???? Mine has gunk in it some where and I can't get it out
> 
> " 7. Completely pull apart, clean and sterilise all of your fermenter and* "break" the tap if you have one*."
> 
> ...




Jesse,
Screw driver up the bum of the tap and push the outer sleeve down to expose the inner sleeve. You might have to give a bit of a sharp tap on the bench to break the bead binding.

As for sour taste can you describe it in more detail? What's is taste like? Pleasant? Rancid? Vinegar? This all helps trust me doesn't matter if your not good with descriptions just write what comes to your head.

Cheers

Chappo


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## warra48 (5/8/09)

I'm with Chappo, but I use the handle of a wooden spoon to break my taps open. It does less potential damage.
Just turn the tap to about half open. Insert handle of wooden spoon. Grab the tap tightly, and give it a sharp downwards hit onto a firm surface. It should dislodge the tap inners, allowing you to clean it.


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## buttersd70 (5/8/09)

I do the same as warra, but use a piece of dowel.
imo, taps (both ball lock and fermenter) are perhaps one of the most neglected pieces of equipment, as far as decent cleaning is concerned.....I dug out the bungs that came with my cubes (edit: so I can fill my fermenter for cleaning without the tap in place), and now I always break down my fermenter taps for a good soak, every use. First time I did it, I'd been brewing a couple of years (without noticible infections, thank goodness), but I was absolutely aghast at the crap that had built up. :blink:


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## kram (5/8/09)

Hey PP, i've had infections all year which what I suspect was also a bacterial acetaldehyde infection. Some beers had slight hints of it while others smacked you in the face with the aroma. I used the bleach & vinegar combo, 1/2 cup bleach, 4 litres of water, then add 1/2 cup of white vinegar. Will kill everything in a 10-30 min period, including anthrax spores in case you have any of them floating around in your brewery. Couldn't pinpoint where it was coming from so I went through all the fermenters and even gave some kegs the treatment (I wouldn't recommend the kegs go in it). Replaced all my beer lines and cleaned the disconnects, the only thing not cleaned was the regulator.


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## Screwtop (5/8/09)

Pat, Acetaldehyde........green apple......Yes?

Do you bottle from kegs? Have you checked your taps. Had green apple in every beer a couple of years ago. Would taste good in the fermenter, then from the keg, but after being on tap for a couple of days.................green apple. Pulled my taps apart, soaked overnight in 20:1 bleach solution, put back together, flushed with no-rinse and then put back in service.............gone. Had yeast/fermentation problems causing this prior and had thought this was still the problem, but no it wa the taps. Used to bottle from the keg via the tap and..........yep all of my bottled beers had green apple.

Cheers,

Screwy


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## drtomc (6/8/09)

Hey guys, great thread, if only because it demonstrates that experienced brewers have grief with infections, not just the beginners. Me? I'm just on the point of tipping 20L of Wit. Underneath an awful aroma, which I really can't describe, there's a beautiful tart wit trying to get out. If I drink it while carefully avoiding any aroma (don't breathe!), I can make it through half a pot before I give up 

T.


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## chappo1970 (6/8/09)

1. Completely pull apart, clean and sterilise any ball-valves you are using in your brewing starting from the kettle tap on.
2. Check any hoses you use during the brewing process. Check they are food-grade and rated to above the maximum temperature they are being exposed to.
3. If you are using a counter-flow chiller or a plate chiller, you need to have a very good look at whether they are actually sterile. Running caustic through them might dislodge some surprising lumps!
4. You need to buy whatever it is needed to raise or lower your pH. Have that on hand and after you add your grain to the mash and agitate it, use your pH strips and additive to get your mash to within 5.2 - 5.6 within say 5 minutes but don't be worried if it takes a lot longer.
5. Use yeast nutrient ten minutes before your boil ends. Use the nutrient not the energizer. Using double what they recommend probably wouldn't hurt given your profile but I should be checked on this.
6. If you are using liquid yeast, how are you using it? (We need more info here I think such as whether you are using a starter.)
7. Completely pull apart, clean and sterilise all of your fermenter and "break" the tap if you have one.
8. Aerate your wort vigorously.
9. Be very sparing when using bleach. Only minute amounts are needed and cold water should be used. A capful of bleach in a 25 lt fermenter is probably about 50 times what is needed. (I'll look that figure up but it is surprisingly low.) Hot water neutralises bleach so ensure you use hot water to rinse off bleach. Do this thoroughly to avoid a medicinal, bandaid or rubbery taste. Don't put bleach near ball-valves as low concentrations will certainly impart a medicinal flavour.
10. Remove taps from fermentors to clean them, clean around the thread fermentor area. Have spare taps on hand just incase
11. Remove the rubber seal in the fermentor lid (if you use a lid)
12. Taste your yeast starter, learn what it should taste like so you know you are pitching a viable yeast
13. Clean your no-chill cubes (if you no chill) straight away after use. Leave a mild solution of bleach/Napisan and water in them and shake them every time you remember (from the no-chill thread I think).
14. Clean up all equipment straight after brewing (general housekeeping I dare say)
15. Change your Sanitation solution/product around every so often so that you knock out bugs and yeasties that maybe building immunity to your current sanitation products.

Just thought I better contribute to this great thread. It was actually Kram's suggestion to my situation a few weeks ago.

+1 to Bleech and Vinegar works and the brewery smells kinda "Fush and Chups" like. 

Cheers

Chappo


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## eamonnfoley (6/8/09)

from what I can see - the more sophisticated your setup, the more potential sanitation risks you have as there are more nooks and crannies that can harbour bacteria. If you have any unnecessary loops, equipment, etc. Maybe you should consider taking them out of your system.

For example, I'm a bit scared to start reusing my plate chiller until I have a pump, as I can't easily flush it with steriliser. Currently no chillin, but not brewing beers with a lot of late hopping - therefore pretty happy with the results.

Most infections from hell (persistent ones) I have heard about are generally equipment related (taps, hoses etc).


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## Katherine (6/8/09)

We cleaned our plate chiller with caustic and dry hop residue came out! Scary. We just clean it with caustic everytime now!


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## Screwtop (6/8/09)

Katie said:


> We cleaned our plate chiller with caustic and dry hop residue came out! Scary. We just clean it with caustic everytime now!




Katie, used to clean mine using a hot caustic flush, tried PBW..........so much crap came out I switched.

Screwy


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## Jesse (6/8/09)

Chappo said:


> Jesse,
> Screw driver up the bum of the tap and push the outer sleeve down to expose the inner sleeve. You might have to give a bit of a sharp tap on the bench to break the bead binding.
> 
> As for sour taste can you describe it in more detail? What's is taste like? Pleasant? Rancid? Vinegar? This all helps trust me doesn't matter if your not good with descriptions just write what comes to your head.
> ...



It's kind of a not quite right sour taste that when combined with the armillo hop it reminds me of off fruit / over ripe fruit. its a reall shame becuase it was hell fruity when I made it and taste great when I bottled it. I was soo looking forward to it. I made it from 1kg muttons wheat extract, 2kg LDME and 500g light crystal plus armillo hops.

The only other time I have tasted it is in a wheat beer I bought from dan murphies. maybey it just tastes like wheat and I don't like it. But I had a wheat beer at oktober fest and loved it?

I bleach my bottles and rinse them in boiling water. No rinse my caps. I don't know if it's the ingrediants or not?


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## bum (6/8/09)

warra48 said:


> I tracked mine down to 2 reasons eventually.
> 
> 1. Using recycled ginger beer bottles. I don't think I ever was able to really get them clean and sanitised properly. I don't use them anymore.



Interesting - and yet worrying. I've made as many GBs as I've made ales so far in my short brewing career so there's a good chance that maybe half my bottle collection has had GB in it. Not to question warra's always good advice but has anyone else noticed such a thing before I start thinking about chucking half my bottles?


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## winkle (6/8/09)

Screwtop said:


> Pat, Acetaldehyde........green apple......Yes?
> 
> Do you bottle from kegs? Have you checked your taps. Had green apple in every beer a couple of years ago. Would taste good in the fermenter, then from the keg, but after being on tap for a couple of days.................green apple. Pulled my taps apart, soaked overnight in 20:1 bleach solution, put back together, flushed with no-rinse and then put back in service.............gone. Had yeast/fermentation problems causing this prior and had thought this was still the problem, but no it wa the taps. Used to bottle from the keg via the tap and..........yep all of my bottled beers had green apple.
> 
> ...



Bless your cotton socks Screwy :icon_cheers: .
My florytes on the bar get cleaned after every use, but the sidebasher on the fridge gets cleaned when I remember and gets the most use. I was going to bottle a few beers from keg tonight, but read the above and checked. Hmm, healthy growth of crap - you saved Stillscottish (and more importantly - me) from a bad beery experience.
I really must replace that sidebasher with another lock-in floryte since they can be a PITA to clean.
Ta mate.


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## Screwtop (6/8/09)

winkle said:


> Bless your cotton socks Screwy :icon_cheers: .
> My florytes on the bar get cleaned after every use, but the sidebasher on the fridge gets cleaned when I remember and gets the most use. I was going to bottle a few beers from keg tonight, but read the above and checked. Hmm, healthy growth of crap - you saved Stillscottish (and more importantly - me) from a bad beery experience.
> I really must replace that sidebasher with another lock-in floryte since they can be a PITA to clean.
> Ta mate.



Hate that freakin green apple aroma/taste.

Screwy


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## JonnyAnchovy (6/8/09)

I've ditched all my plastic fermenters for glass carboys now - PITA to carry, but a dream to clean and sanitise. Worth it for the peace of mind, IMO.


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## eamonnfoley (6/8/09)

JonnyAnchovy said:


> I've ditched all my plastic fermenters for glass carboys now - PITA to carry, but a dream to clean and sanitise. Worth it for the peace of mind, IMO.



But incredibly scary if you were to drop it. I've read some real horror stories. Use a trolley to transport, and get some handles for it.

I dont have a trolley or handles, but I make a big effort to keep it in the same area (when I actually use it)


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## sinkas (6/8/09)

PAt, are you sure it was acetaldehyde, I only ever tasted diacetyl in that dunkel,


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## JonnyAnchovy (6/8/09)

foles said:


> But incredibly scary if you were to drop it. I've read some real horror stories. Use a trolley to transport, and get some handles for it.
> 
> I dont have a trolley or handles, but I make a big effort to keep it in the same area (when I actually use it)



I'm always ultra carefull- I often have visions of a big shard of carboy clefting straight through my femoral artery....


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## PistolPatch (7/8/09)

[Still waiting for Gotalk to come and repair my internet. In the meantime I have been using my mobile as a modem thinking it cost mobile phone rates like they told me on Wednesday at the Vodafone shop . Found out yesterday that they are charging per kb. Grrrrrr. How can PP operate on a per kb basis lol. Anyway, excuse me if I miss anyones questions below or in the post that follows.]

Man, there have been some interesting posts here! Im very much looking forward to consolidating this. Before I comment/reply to the relevant previous posts, Ill write about my infection from hell as this will answer some of your questions...

Edit: As usual, I didnt realise I would write so much below. It is probably pretty boring for anyone but me but certainly shows pretty clearly what not to do. Ill whack a section at the end of what I have learned so jump straight there maybe...

*My Infection from Hell Mainly Caused by Stupidity.*

It must be 2 years ago now and I was sharing brewing with a young bloke who was just starting to AG. Wed alternate brewing double-batches and take a fermenter each. One day, he failed to smell and taste the water from the yeast we used to wash. That was the start.

I then bought new yeast and brewed again. My mate was losing interest at this stage as he was at uni and surrounded by young nubiles good on him! He therefore let a few brews go for weeks s but one thing I do remember was that his beer was relatively OK considering how much it had been abused. Mine were infected though the infection was not noticeable to the majority of palates. Like Screwtop, I couldnt stand it though I could sometimes get a glass down before it became apparent.

I cleaned everything as normal including beer lines etc. No change despite my thorough cleaning etc.

I then blamed the yeast as it had changed a little around that time. This got me into some trouble here lol!

After this, doogiechap explained to me how ball-valves always retain some liquid. I was using mini ones on my fermenters so as I could do closed transfers via filter to my kegs. I ran all sorts of stuff through them and opened and closed them a billion times. I never pulled them apart though as these ones are absolute bastards to pull apart. (This was my first silly mistake as doogie had warned me well.)

I brewed on and I remember changing a whole lot of stuff at the same time as all this was happening boil length, mash time etc. An occasional brew would be difficult because of the new auto-syphons they now sell which seem to work only about half the time. So I blamed all those things.

Finally I woke up and returned my brewing practices back to normal. There it was still lingering usually in the background but often very pronounced and undrinkable for me.

Somewhere around this time, I was able to actually get someone to name the problem (randyrob and a few others) and I confirmed this by putting 4 of my beers in a competition for the first time. (Only done it once since!) It was acetyldehyde. This green apple/cider/puckering flavour is often caused by poor yeast management and health so then I remembered I didnt aerate anymore as I had a nice way of dropping a small stream into my fermenters which aerates the wort. 

So it must be aeration! I got my air pump and filter stone out again. Of course, no change.

I also tried a whole lot of new recipes at this time. So these were the next things to blame .

Im looking pretty stupid I know but I cleaned my gear so well or so I thought and was doing everything the way I used to.

After this, I had to focus on my parents for quite some months and so had a good excuse to ignore the problem and not brew!

I then read up some more on acetyldehyde and found that it can also be caused by a bacterial infection. So the next plan was to empty every keg of beer before I brewed again and clean the lot in my usual fastidious manner pulling everything apart etc. Emptying the kegs was a long process because I certainly wasnt going to drink them!

Finally, I had no excuses left. Katie and chappo had the ABBD coming up and so I thought I better do two brews prior to the ABBD as I was going to have a few troops over.

I brewed my house beer and another beer and didnt use my ball-valves on the fermenters as I had, a few months prior, taken the time to break a few of them open. Medicinal! *What is important here is that you couldnt smell any infection until you actually split the ball-valve. You must split them. Opening and closing a hundred times will not cut it.*

So, this was obviously the problem. Yippee!!!!

So I used normal spigots for these on fermenters that had been clean, dry and sterilised for probably 8 months. 

Bugger me! There it was again!!! I ended up drinking commercial beer at my brew day!

What to blame now???

I use a manifold system with mini-ball valves in my dispensing fridge so as I only need 1 tap to dispense 6 beers. This must be it! This was bloody stupid of me as I had previously narrowed down the infection to being prior to transferring from the fermenter. Thats definitely the problem so off I go and do 2 single and 2 double batches. 150 lts for ABBD!!! (I had got so enthusiastic about the day I even boiled my kegs in my 70lt pot full of Napisan in preparation).

I split the double-batches with Katie and Lloyd.

It was the hardest brewing weekend I have had as I had no chance to set up prior and had bought a heap of fancy new ball-valves for my fermenters, fridge and even kettles. I also bought a plate chiller and even some glycol but lets not go there! What a show!

Anyway, I dressed my 3 old fermenters with their brand new ball-valves and saved my new fermenter for the last brew (the best beer I have tasted in my life) a tettnang pilsner recipe stolen from Gryphon Brewing. Oh shit! I was one fitting short so had to use one part from my old gear on the brand new fermenter. Anyway, no worries...

7 days later, I tasted my house beer from the fermenter and the other ale. FFS! My house beer is totally stuffed. I think the other ale is OK (just snuck a taste then) and I am still too scared to taste the 2 lagers but might build up some courage on the weekend. Fingers crossed.

I rang Katie and Lloyd to get them to check their beer and all was no worries. The following day I took a sample of mine and asked them to give me a blind tasting. Mine was stuffed and theirs wasnt. We all picked it straight away. (Another interesting thing was that my beer was darker in colour than theirs. Bugger me!)

So we had the same brew kettle, chiller, transfer hoses etc. This fermenter was dressed in brand new clothes and still I had the problem. I had narrowed it down to the bare fermenter plus lid something I should have done many, many months ago.

*What I Have Learned from the Above*

Ill add the following to the list we have going when I have better internet access. Once again, these are not necessarily in order of importance. (I think (f) below is very interesting for those who have brewed for some time and suddenly get a problem.)

a)	Stop and Think: As soon as you have a problem, stop brewing and start thinking. Brewing a great beer is not hard so if you are not brewing a drinkable beer, you have a real problem that need to be thought through. A big problem is not going to be solved through small changes.
B)	Establish Your House Beer: Your first priority as a new brewer, whether it be kit or AG, is to establish a house recipe. Ideally, this should be based on a beer you have tasted that has been brewed by another brewer and that you have really enjoyed. If you cant copy the taste to within say 10% then you need to find out why before brewing other recipes. This establishes there is no problem with your equipment or that you are not in the unfortunate position of getting an infection on your first brew. As you try other recipes, you might like to change your house beer. The sooner you get a house beer you really love, the more you will brew it and the more you can start to play with subtle changes in your brewing practices.
c)	Establish Your Ground Brewing Rules: eg 90 minute boil, 90 minute mash and aeration of wort. Anytime you change your brewing procedure, it should be done on your house beer. For example, dont try dry hopping on anything but your house beer. Your house beer is where you try making changes to your brewing rules.
d)	Fermenter Size: Consider a 30lt fermenter rather than a 25 lt. I have been using 25lt fermenters and fill them up to 23lts. Occasionally you get a vigorous yeast or ferment that gushes to the lid and sometimes beyond. This does nothing for hygiene. Consider larger fermenters and maybe even bottling (if you keg) a few beers from each batch and storing them long-term. You can also be a bit more generous in your sample/hydrometer sizes with a larger fermenter.
e)	Fermenter Lip: Actually scrub under the lip of your fermenter. This is one area that is hard to soak in chemicals and one that I have neglected even though it always looks clean. Hopefully using a larger fermenter will lessen this hazard.
f)	Beerstone and Bio-Films: beersolutionsjapan post in this thread has struck me the most. Not using an acid based cleaner from time to time may be the cause of long-term brewers suddenly having a problem. For example, I usually use Napisan, bleach etc and even gave my fermenters a good caustic soak! Very interesting.
g)	Put the Same Dress On Your Fermenters/Kegs/Kettles etc: I havent done this yet but if you use multiple fermenters and kegs, it would be well worthwhile working out how to mark the components so that you can dress each keg/fermenter in the same gear they wore before. Keeping fermenter tap A on fermenter A and gas post B on keg B will certainly help you if you are ever unfortunate enough to have a problem.
h)	Dont Over-think Brewing Great Beer is Not Hard: You can do what I did and find something small to blame and go and do another brew and find yourself in the same boat. Stopping and thinking things through slowly as I suggested in a) above will avoid a comedy of errors. Trust your house beer and ground brewing rules. Dont brew again until you have a sound plan.
i)	Ask an Experienced Brewer to Watch You Brew: If you are new to a brewing method such as AG and cannot brew a decent beer within your first 3 brews, dont brew again until you have an experienced brewer watch you. Bad luck does happen to new brewers and there is no shortage of experienced brewers who will enjoy helping you out and can usually spot something that you have missed or mis-interpreted. Give them lots of decent commercial beer when they come over .

I did intend to thank or respond to the prior posts in this thread but Im buggered so might sign off now. So much good stuff has been posted. 

beersolutionsjapan, loved your posts. Can you post here a cleaning regime that we could all be confident in including the chemicals and their dilutuion rate? I know its a big ask but Id love that!

Spot ya ron from the internetless,
Pat


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## FNQ Bunyip (7/8/09)

PistolPatch said:


> [ In the meantime I have been using my mobile as a modem thinking it cost mobile phone rates like they told me on Wednesday at the Vodafone shop . Found out yesterday that they are charging per kb. Grrrrrr. How can PP operate on a per kb basis lol. Anyway, excuse me if I miss anyones questions below or in the post that follows.]



I told you , I told You , I told you ..... Oh Did I say I told You so...


Ned


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## Katherine (7/8/09)

The other day was the first time I have have tasted or smelt apples in PP's beer. Im still wondering why we have not got an infection in the All amarillo and the pilsner? We used the same yeast which was second generation??? 

Lets hope this is the end of it.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (7/8/09)

PP I am very cross with you :angry: , I keep telling you Napisan is not a steriliser ! Use some product that will do the job and you may solve the problem.
GB


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## Leigh (7/8/09)

Katie said:


> The other day was the first time I have have tasted or smelt apples in PP's beer. Im still wondering why we have not got an infection in the All amarillo and the pilsner? We used the same yeast which was second generation???
> 
> Lets hope this is the end of it.



That just tells us the infection is after the kettle, so a fermenter or cube maybe.


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## PistolPatch (7/8/09)

FNQ Bunyip said:


> I told you , I told You , I told you ..... Oh Did I say I told You so...
> 
> 
> Ned



You did, you did, you did!!! The buggers at the shop lied! I have to wait until i get the invoice before I can start arguing with them. Least I didn't get done for $19.000 though like you - lol!  

My goodness, that was a horribly long post last night. I think it answered several posts though which leaves...

beersolutionsjapan: bsj is going to expand on the cleaning schedule he mentioned. Looking forward to that post!

kram: The bleach and vinegar sounds nice and simple. I wonder if it gets rid of the film and beerstone??? Loved the anthrax comment!

katie: It was weird that you didn't get caught out. (Katie's brew was pitched with yeast washed from one of my acetyldehyde batches. I didn't realise at the time it had the infection.) There are a few possibilities here but I'd only be guessing. Your lager was new yeast so don't even worry about that one.

GB: Yeah, yeah, yeah. LOL!

Thanks to everyone else here who has added to the list or made suggestions.

Donya,
Pat


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## Online Brewing Supplies (7/8/09)

PistolPatch said:


> You did, you did, you did!!! The buggers at the shop lied! I have to wait until i get the invoice before I can start arguing with them. Least I didn't get done for $19.000 though like you - lol!
> 
> My goodness, that was a horribly long post last night. I think it answered several posts though which leaves...
> 
> ...


Did I mention that Nappisan is NOT a sanitiser ?  
GB


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## Screwtop (7/8/09)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Did I mention that Nappisan is NOT a sanitiser ?
> GB




Geeeezus GB, do I have to agree with you....................................... :angry: Pat, Napisan is a detergent, it removes shit.............

Buy yourself some Bleach man FFS use something that kills bugs. ...............................................%^$^$

Screwy


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## Online Brewing Supplies (7/8/09)

Screwtop said:


> Geeeezus GB, do I have to agree with you....................................... :angry: Pat, Napisan is a detergent, it removes shit.............
> 
> Buy yourself some Bleach man FFS use something that kills bugs. ...............................................%^$^$
> 
> Screwy


Thanks Screwy, thats twice now we have agreed :lol: , if we keep telling PP he might get the message.
GB


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## manticle (7/8/09)

PistolPatch said:


> [Still waiting for Gotalk to come and repair my internet. In the meantime I have been using my mobile as a modem thinking it cost mobile phone rates like they told me on Wednesday at the Vodafone shop  . Found out yesterday that they are charging per kb. Grrrrrr. How can PP operate on a per kb basis lol. Anyway, excuse me if I miss anyone's questions below or in the post that follows.]



Off topic but be careful. I recently signed on for an $8 for 300 MB deal using my phone as a modem. I expected to be prompted to buy another 300 when that ran out - instead I got charged around $400 for just over 700 MB extra. That's a bit like buying one carton of milk for 1.70 then getting charged $24 for second and subsequent ones.

Some 3 sales rep will be copping an earful soon - blatant profiteering and nothing else. I'm sure it was written somewhere in the fine print of the seventh page of the contract on my mobile phone but blaming someone for standing in a bear trap because you left a sign hidden in the bushes nearby warning of bear traps in the vicinity still makes you a prick.


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## flattop (7/8/09)

My problem was a medicinal taste.

I brewed through last summer due to a swag of OS relatives coming over and drinking like fish.... and i was doing K&K but i guess that Italian beer must be really bad as they loved my stuff. 
Anyhow i brewed a Smokey Belgian that just came out all wrong, band aid taste, kinda medicinal flavor.
I was sterilizing with bleach so i blamed that, changed my routine from a flush to a soak.
No good.
I changed to starsan
No good
I wasted about 4 kits and had no result.
I threw out the fermenter and started again!

What i suspect is that the bacteria had gotten into the fermenter in places like the tap and the thread and the lid seal even though i was fastidious the last few times i cleaned them. 
Lessons learned, cleaning taps works but i found that they are sometimes stiff to turn after cleaning.
I throw out my taps after about 3-5 brews, they are cheap and easy to replace. 
It's $2 VS losing a $25 brew, since i've gone to AG it wouldn't bother me if i lost the cost of the brew, it would kill me after the labor and effort of doing a mash and throwing it out.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (7/8/09)

flattop said:


> My problem was a medicinal taste.
> 
> I brewed through last summer due to a swag of OS relatives coming over and drinking like fish.... and i was doing K&K but i guess that Italian beer must be really bad as they loved my stuff.
> Anyhow i brewed a Smokey Belgian that just came out all wrong, band aid taste, kinda medicinal flavor.
> ...


A very valid point on the taps , I do the same and never get infections.Yes a couple of buck compared to 50L of good AG brew down the shiter.
Gb


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## Brad Sofield (7/8/09)

Yeah cheers Matt- My next question was how do you pull apart the one piece SS ball valves. Your way looks better and according to the microbiologist no bugs can survive temps above 70d for more than a minute or two.
Cheers


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## PistolPatch (7/8/09)

BradS said:


> Yeah cheers Matt- My next question was how do you pull apart the one piece SS ball valves. Your way looks better and according to the microbiologist no bugs can survive temps above 70d for more than a minute or two.
> Cheers



Look out! I'm back on the net .

Brad, have you got a pic? It might help to explain it. Some you just need 2 spanners and a lot of brute force to crack for the first time. Others need an allen key.

You must pull them apart to clean them properly. Even running a boiling solution of the most aggressive chemical and opening and closing the valve a hundred times will not guarantee you success.

Cheers,
Pat


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## PistolPatch (7/8/09)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Did I mention that Nappisan is NOT a sanitiser ?
> GB


Okay GB and Screwy, fill out the following template please .

Actually I am serious as all we get usually on the forum is a snippet of info here and there. Here's a draft of what I think might help us all. Feel free to correct or expand it. Anyone following this thread will appreciate the time you take with the below.

*My Cleaning / Sanitisation Regime...*

My chemical mixes are...

A) Soaker/Cleaner: (Chemical Name): Grams/mls mixed with mls of hot/cold water for ? mins/hrs.
B) Sanitiser - Acid Based: (Chemical Name): Grams/mls mixed with mls of hot/cold water for ? mins/hrs.
C) Sanitiser - Alkaline Based: (Chemical Name): Grams/mls mixed with mls of hot/cold water for ? mins/hrs.
D) Steriliser: (Chemical Name): Grams/mls mixed with mls of hot/cold water for ? mins/hrs.
E) Other: (Chemical Name): Grams/mls mixed with mls of hot/cold water for ? mins/hrs.
etc...

Which of the above do you use on your stainless steel and plastics? How do you use them?

Stainless Steel: (e.g) A on every 1 brew/s. B on every 10th brew. C on 9 out of 10 brews. D before and after every brew. 
Plastics: (e.g) As above.


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## Brad Sofield (7/8/09)

Thanks PP
Raced out to the shed to get pics. I know on my two piece BV's I can remove the nut from one end and take out the ball section but this SS one I'm not sure about. In the pic also the two quick connects on the ends of the silicone hose, well one of them I use to transer from kettle to cube so I would presume breaking the hose away from the fitting to clean that spigot out would be a good idea. Additionally I reckon I should mark one to use permanenlty for the mash tum to kettle transfer so as to not mix up with the cleaner kettle to cube. 
Geez so many contamination points!

Ps Thanks for the nightmare stories, this is only my second AG so your lessons hard learned may save alot of us B) .


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## Screwtop (7/8/09)

My chemical mixes are...

A) Soaker/Cleaner: (Percarbonate/Napisan): Tablespoon/1L of cold water for. After every use soak/scrub fermenters, taps seals and airlocks all dismantled after use then rinsed and stored dry. All other components, taps etc stored in a 20:1 Bleach solution in a 2L ice cream container until required.

'B) Sanitiser - Acid Based: (Iodophor): 1ml mixed with 1L of cold water, for every batch soaked for 20 min prior to use after a soak with Bleach Solution. Soak fermenters, taps seals and airlocks after assembly prior to use.


C) Sanitiser - Acid Based: (Hypochloric Acid): 200ml mixed with 5L of cold water. Prior to use for every batch soak all fermenters taps etc after assembly for min 20 min. Rinse then use Iodophor no-rinse sanitiser.

D) 

E) Other: (PBW): 20g mixed with 10L of 40-50C water. Clean In Place after every brew, all SS vessels, valves, pump and plumbing recirculated for 30 min. Rinsed then with clean water.



Screwy

This is all VERY basic stuff PP.


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## PistolPatch (7/8/09)

BradS said:


> Thanks PP
> Raced out to the shed to get pics. I know on my two piece BV's I can remove the nut from one end and take out the ball section but this SS one I'm not sure about.


I'm not sure about that one either as I can't see a line on it anywhere that it will break. Maybe some ball-valves don't break??? Hopefully someone here will recognise it.


BradS said:


> In the pic also the two quick connects on the ends of the silicone hose, well one of them I use to transer from kettle to cube so I would presume breaking the hose away from the fitting to clean that spigot out would be a good idea.


It's really hard when you start out brewing as you always look for bits and pieces that will get the job done and hardly ever think of the time the bits you buy will take to pull apart and clean. Quick connect fittings might be quick to connect and disconnect but often take considerable time to pull apart and clean. Maybe a hose tail and one of those hose clamps that you can tighten by hand would be the go? Definitely worth a think. 


BradS said:


> Additionally I reckon I should mark one to use permanenlty for the mash tum to kettle transfer so as to not mix up with the cleaner kettle to cube.


Dressing your gear in the same clothes definitely has no downside and may serve you well in the future. (I'm glad that someone read something I wrote last night - lol!) The only question here is the best way to permanently mark them.


BradS said:


> Geez so many contamination points! Thanks for the nightmare stories, this is only my second AG so your lessons hard learned may save alot of us B) .


When I started this thread, I didn't mean to scare new brewers. The overwhelming chances are that you will do a heap of brews without a problem. There are a heap of brewers whose cleaning skills amount to a squirt with the garden hose who have never had a problem. I know - I have tasted their beer and it has been great :angry:.

I started the thread more for brewers who suddenly developed a problem after many brews. I was looking for some culprits that may not be obvious and once the culprit was identified, how that brewer got back to a clean brewery.

I see though that you and a few other new brewers are reading this thread and that is great!!! But one thing that would worry me is if new brewers got paranoid about cleaning etc. I know plenty of brewers that never pull hoses apart and never have a problem.

So the real questions are, "What procedures can we implement to lower the risk of infection without spending 24 hours a day pulling things apart etc?" And, when we do get a problem, "How can I rid my brewery of an infection?"

So Brad, please don't let the nightmare stories worry you and make you spend more time cleaning than enjoying your brewing. I think what you, myself and anyone else should attune themselves to here is....

1. What is a cleaning regime you can follow that is convenient and that you can be fairly confident in?
2. When you buy more gear, ask yourself, "Will this really make things easier?" As foles said previously in this thread, the more gear you get, the more possible problems. For example, if they still sold auto-syphons like they used to I would never have put ball-valves on my kettles. Ball-valves look better and have many advantages but they are time-consuming to clean properly and re-connect up. Thread tape, spanners and checking for leaks is not fun but you hear little about that. If an auto-syphon of the same diameter they used to make was still available I would still use that as the cleaning is so easy. If one was made in stainless I would doubly use it as I could also transfer hot or boiling liquid or wort.
3. What checklist/procedure should a brewer follow to rid their brewery of an infection on the off-chance that they do get one? This was the main reason for this thread and will be the end result of it I hope as everyone like yourself contributes or asks questions.

Already 2) above is something we can all act on. 1) should be provided in this thread soon and 3) should follow soon after!

Brew on Brad and when I get some good beers on tap here, I will invite you over as you aren't too far away.

Spot,
Pat


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## PistolPatch (7/8/09)

Screwtop said:


> My chemical mixes are...
> 
> A) Soaker/Cleaner: (Percarbonate/Napisan): Tablespoon/1L of cold water for. After every use soak/scrub fermenters, taps seals and airlocks all dismantled after use then rinsed and stored dry. All other components, taps etc stored in a 20:1 Bleach solution in a 2L ice cream container until required.
> 
> ...



Thanks very much for the above Screwy. Don't be worried about posting, "VERY basic stuff," as it might seem basic to you but for many it won't be. Remember a few years ago that you had been brewing for well over a year and you brought that infected beer to Batz's? Nothing is obvious and there certainly isn't an easy, "go to," place to find this sort of information. It isn't easy as I have in the past started threads on it that resulted in nothing like the information you provided above. So, don't be embarrassed about providing what you believe to be obvious.

A couple of questions/corrections though...

Bleach Solution: Obviously what you wrote there is a typo. Storing taps in a 20 to 1 solution of bleach is an absolute no no of course. Maybe your bleach is non-chlorine-based?

Stainless Steel: From what I read above you only use PBW and nothing else on your stainless. Is that right?

Hypochloric Acid: Where do you buy that? Anyone else use this?

Spot,
Pat


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## acoulson (8/8/09)

I hope to post a detailed reply maybe tomorrow but looks like you guys are pretty much on track. Just briefly I'll add some more cleaning key points.

For any cleaning there are always 3 factors working together HEAT, MECHANICAL ACTION and CHEMICAL ACTION. All cleaning involves these 3 factors so if you want to improve your cleaning regime you need to adjust one of these three.

Now there are really only two main types of soil- organic (beer scum fats yeast residue) and inorganic (beer stone, salt deposits, scale etc.) Use acid (i.e. phosphoric acid circa 2% and over 20 degrees C) for inorganic and basic i.e. (caustic circa 2%, again hot is more effective) for organic.

On to sanitizers- only useful once the surface is completely clean. They work by either heat (steam or boiling water) or chemical action (PAA {100 mg per litre}, iodophors, bleach)by either poisoning the cells or breaking down the cell walls. I like PAA in the brewery because you can let it sit in the lines and there is no need to rinse. With my home-brewing I simply use boiling water. I've never had an infection in probably over 1000 home-brews. Boiling water leaves no residues, is free and no need to rinse!

MOST IMPORTANT IS NOT YOUR CLEANING REGIME BUT -ASEPTIC TECHNIQUE!

- Sanitise just before you brew, not weeks before and leave it sitting around collecting dust. Bacteria and yeast CAN'T fly- they are transported by dust or liquid or people

- Wash your hands with disinfectant before you brew and don't touch your hair.

- Don't put down hydrometers, lids, airlocks or anything that is going into the beer FACE UP where it will collect dust. And work on a sterile surface. Metho is great for wiping down sink tops but watch it around open flames

- Avoid touching anything that is gong to contact the beer as well as leaning into or over sterilised fermenters or breathing into them.

OTHER GENERAL CLEANING POINTS

-Don't use any abrasives on your kit and someone else mentioned. It provides microscopic crevices for microbes to take hold. Also don't use caustic on aluminium and high concentration chlorine based cleaners will cause pitting over the long term even on stainless (again mentioned earlier)

- Avoid dead legs and elbows where due to low flow-rate you don't get the MECHANICAL action and break down valves as has also been correctly mentioned.

- For beer transfers you want a slow flow-rate through pipes and tubes- Less than 1 meter per second. But for cleaning you need a fast flow-rate of more than 2 m per second.

I'll post my ideal brewery cleaning regime another day because this is already way too long. 

Hope it helps,
Cheers, Adam


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## PistolPatch (8/8/09)

Man, I take so long to write and edit posts! I took so long with the above one that I got timed out on adding the following to Screwtop....

I was trying to add...

"You also wrote about your tap problem in post #23 above (I never got to taste that one) and it sounds like that took you at least a few brews to solve that one so the more information all of us get the better I reckon."

I've only had one infection in my beers so I am happy to listen to someone who has had at least two that I know of and hopefully solved them and who I think started brewing AG at a similar time to myself.

All interesting stuff!


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## bill_gill85 (8/8/09)

BradS said:


> Thanks PP
> Raced out to the shed to get pics. I know on my two piece BV's I can remove the nut from one end and take out the ball section but this SS one I'm not sure about. In the pic also the two quick connects on the ends of the silicone hose, well one of them I use to transer from kettle to cube so I would presume breaking the hose away from the fitting to clean that spigot out would be a good idea. Additionally I reckon I should mark one to use permanenlty for the mash tum to kettle transfer so as to not mix up with the cleaner kettle to cube.
> Geez so many contamination points!
> 
> Ps Thanks for the nightmare stories, this is only my second AG so your lessons hard learned may save alot of us B) .






PistolPatch said:


> I'm not sure about that one either as I can't see a line on it anywhere that it will break. Maybe some ball-valves don't break??? Hopefully someone here will recognise it.



:icon_offtopic: 



Brad & PP,

You might have to have a look internally at the valve, you should see that one end has a hexagonal opening that an allen key will fit. (Part 2 in the image). The part with the hexagonal opening should unscrew (basically a set screw with a hex opening right through), allowing you to remove the ball & the seals. I've never opened one ( just writing from what I've observed) but I'd expect either the part that screws out or the seals to only fit one way, might be best to make note of which face was closest to the ball.

I guess with all the connectors we use for plumbing 2 piece ball valves are a bare minimum to save removing all the plumbing.
Ben

Edit : inserted image


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## PistolPatch (8/8/09)

Sometimes you have to love AHB!

Whilst doing my last post, two people have gone to a lot of time and trouble to help other brewers out and written in a manner that is, simply, helpful.

*Savor the above two posts because they are few and far between.*

Good on you billgill and I can't wait until beersolutionsjapan posts his ideal cleaning regime!

Great stuff,
Pat

Edit: I know I could appear knowledgeable and look it up but what is PAA?


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## acoulson (8/8/09)

Sorry, PAA = peracetic acid. from the top of my head it is a mixture of peroxide and acetic acid. I'm sure you can pick it up somewhere. I'll do some research and get back.
Adam


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## Screwtop (8/8/09)

PistolPatch said:


> Thanks very much for the above Screwy. Don't be worried about posting, "VERY basic stuff," as it might seem basic to you but for many it won't be. Remember a few years ago that you had been brewing for well over a year and you brought that infected beer to Batz's? Nothing is obvious and there certainly isn't an easy, "go to," place to find this sort of information. It isn't easy as I have in the past started threads on it that resulted in nothing like the information you provided above. So, don't be embarrassed about providing what you believe to be obvious.



Not embarrassed to say I've had my fair share of infections Pat, but cleaning and sanitation is any brewing text page one stuff. In every case of infection in my beer it was because of some slack application of the basics on my behalf. 

Used to open the fermenting fridge so often in the early days, no wonder some brews became infected, every time I opened the door the protective Co2 ran out. 

Now have some additional rules to brew by and if they are observed without fail I find the risk of infection is reduced. Proper sanitation of all equipment should guard againse infection from contact with wort. When it comes to airborne bugs good yeast health and pitching rate are very important, yeast will beat the badies to the punch if they are in good nick. Once Co2 production has ceased the wort needs to be protected from airborne infection so then seal it up and don't keep opening the fermentation fridge, where possible use a chest freezer. I leave fermenters open and no infections, when the freezer lid is opened to take a sample the Co2 just about drops me. Seal up the fermenters and drop temp once fermentation has ceased, another aid in reducing infection. 




PistolPatch said:


> A couple of questions/corrections though...
> 
> Bleach Solution: Obviously what you wrote there is a typo. Storing taps in a 20 to 1 solution of bleach is an absolute no no of course. Maybe your bleach is non-chlorine-based?



Been doing this for years Pat, before AG and not the only one. All of my fermenter taps, airlocks etc are stored in a 20:1 bleach solution until required. 



PistolPatch said:


> Stainless Steel: From what I read above you only use PBW and nothing else on your stainless. Is that right?



PBW for all metal and hoses



PistolPatch said:


> Hypochloric Acid: Where do you buy that? Anyone else use this?



Where the fcuk did I get that from Pat..........meant Sodium Hypochlorite = Bleach



beersolutionsjapan said:


> Sorry, PAA = peracetic acid. from the top of my head it is a mixture of peroxide and acetic acid. I'm sure you can pick it up somewhere. I'll do some research and get back.
> Adam



Available here Adam, used by a local brewery hereabouts.

Cheers,

Screwy


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## Brad Sofield (8/8/09)

Thanks PP. I may just swap that SS valve out for a breakable one. Not to scared but it definitely has raised further awareness about hygiene in areas I presumed would be cleaned with boiling water or Starsan. I will keep reading and brewing regardless. Too much fun.Thanks again.


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## Brad Sofield (8/8/09)

Hi all,
I have used what was called peroxicetic acid available from TWOC. A combination of peroxide and acetic acid I believe and can be quite nasty on the hands if spilt. Roy stores behind the counter to avoid issues. Be careful when decanting.


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## acoulson (9/8/09)

Well, here is the cleaning regime we used at the brewery:

I suggest you adapt it to your own needs. Also use the concentrations and safety precautions suggested on the cleaning solutions. Even on a commercial level we ask and listen to the advice of cleaning experts like Ecolab because it it a complicated science. Not only do you have the cleaning or sterilising agent but other chemicals included like surfactants and wetting agents to help the cleaning solutions stick to the surface and spread evenly. 

Here is the regime for each stage of the brewing process;


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## acoulson (9/8/09)

Almost all the cleaning solutions are introduced through a spray head at the top called a SPRAYBALL or JET HEAD. The solutions hit the wall or surface, run down and pool at the tank bottom.

Water; 

- We used to carbon filter but now use reverse osmosis

Brewhouse; 

(mash tun lauter tun and pipework). 
- Rinsed with hot liquor after each brew and transfer.
- At the end of the week the whole system was cleaned with hot caustic (3%) and rinsed with hot water. The caustic was mixed in each vessel for a short period 1-2 hours hour and then transferred to the next. 
- Every month or as required acid clean with phosphoric acid 

(kettle) 
- Rinsed out with cold water after each brew
- Caustic clean and water rinse after every 8 brews to improve boil efficiency
- Included in the end of week total clean

Lager Cellar; 

(fermenters, storage tanks & pipe-work) 
- Rinsed with water then hot caustic cleaned after each brew with a post caustic rinse then sterilise with peracetic (PAA, peroxyaceticacid).
-Acid cleaning every 10 brews or as required.

(Bright beer tanks)
- Rinse and acid wash (phosphoric 2%) and rinse after each filling cycle. Sterilise with PAA


Yeast 

(before pitching) 
- Acid wash with phosphoric acid to a pH of about 2.2 about 2 hours before pitching (precipitates trub and kills many bacteria)
- We used to treat with an antibiotic called "Nisin" (15 mg/l)
- More recently we treat with liquid isomerised hop extract (100-200 mg/l) 

Bottles 

(New) 
- Rinsed with sterile water (ozone or UV treated but cooled boiling water is fine for homebrew - I just use tap water)

(Used) 
- Warm water pre-soak and then insides jetted with warm water (60 degrees)
- Labels are removed with hot caustic soak (70-80 degrees) and mechanical jetting.
- Inside cleaned with hot caustic jet (70-80 degrees), drained and rinsed with 40 degree water
- A double stage rinse with sterile water. (The high temperate caustic is enough to sterilise the bottles)


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## acoulson (9/8/09)

A lot has been written about taking apart systems and cleaning which is great advice with but a large and complicated set up you might want to consider CIP (cleaning in place) where you clean without disassembling everything. Advantages are- you minimise contact with the outside environment, use less chemicals and save time. 

If you have a simple set-up, keep it simple- clean the pipes manually, soak them well and avoid using taps, valves and long fixed line runs. My AG set-up at home has one tap on my lauter tun so I can control the run-off speed and the rest is plain silicon piping for transfers.	

I hope you are able to use some this info in your home brewing. 
All of this is from my memories of working at the various areas of the brewery during my career so if you see any faults or if I missed some things don't hesitate to point them out.

Cheers
Adam


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## Brad Sofield (9/8/09)

Thanks beersolutionsjapan, The detailed cleaning outline will come in handy.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (9/8/09)

beersolutionsjapan said:


> Sorry, PAA = peracetic acid. from the top of my head it is a mixture of peroxide and acetic acid. I'm sure you can pick it up somewhere. I'll do some research and get back.
> Adam


Yes I use (PAA) for sterilisation but it's dangerous to use unless you are real care full , so I dont sell it.People have lost their eye sight from this product, so its not a good option for amateur brewers.My cleaning is done by Caustic solutions then followed by PAA.Also its good to reverse your cleaning sanitising process, EG acid cleaner then caustic sanitiser.A good way to keep ever thing under control.This is just an overview of a total process, there is a lot more involved.
GB


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## seravitae (9/8/09)

GB do you make your own peracetic acid? From vinegar and hydrogen peroxide, or do you purchase high concentrated acetic acid and go from there?


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## Online Brewing Supplies (9/8/09)

sera said:


> GB do you make your own peracetic acid? From vinegar and hydrogen peroxide, or do you purchase high concentrated acetic acid and go from there?


I buy it in 20 L containers.I use a dose of between 2.5 to 3ml per litre which will kill "every thing" in about 3 minutes contact time assuming that the vessel is well physically cleaned.Having things cleaned is the first step.With out this first step there is no guarantees.
GB


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## eamonnfoley (9/8/09)

PistolPatch said:


> So we had the same brew kettle, chiller, transfer hoses etc. This fermenter was dressed in brand new clothes and still I had the problem. I had narrowed it down to the bare fermenter plus lid something I should have done many, many months ago.



Hey Pat,

Are you saying its your plastic fermenter - as in the thing itself? Are you sure? I kept thinking that was the case with my troubles. Maybe its just the rubber seal?


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## PistolPatch (10/8/09)

Screwtop said:


> Where the fcuk did I get that from Pat..........meant Sodium Hypochlorite = Bleach



LOL Screwy. Sorry, I was getting a bit tired/frustrated/ratty on Friday night after too tiring a fortnight. I still don't reckon this chemical thing is simple. There is so much contradictory or incomplete information around but I think we are getting there here.

Am going to listen to this Brewing Network show on cleaning today with a bit of luck.

I'm not scared of using bleach myself but I reckon it gets misused a lot. For example, anyone soaking an assembled tap in it could well expect problems. Other people use it with hot water which neutralises it etc, etc. Soaking fliters in it will eat them away every time they are re-wetted. (This is why you will get holes in clothes months after you spill bleach on them.)

I think failing to use any acid has been where I have stuffed up big time but it wasn't until recently I have seen this emphasised unfortunateley. I imagine you are using the PAA on your SS as well as PBW?

Thanks again for providing all the above.

Unratty,
Pat


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## PistolPatch (10/8/09)

So I don't bore everyone to death, I won't reply individually to the above but thanks very much for the great posts and detail above.

Anyone want to have a crack at answering the following?...

What alkaline and acid chemicals would you use to clean and sanitize John Guest fittings without wrecking them considering they are made from stainless steel, rubber and nylon?

If you can, please provide dilution rates, hot/cold water and soaking times. Also if possible, can you suggest a chemical mix which is not overly dangerous to handle?

I only have one eye left. That's why I...

 a lot,
Pat

P.S. I'm hoping that answering the above might give a simple regime that will cover all brewery materials with perhaps the exception of aluminium.

P.P.S. Foles, will have to answer later maybe by email. Spot!


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## Guest Lurker (10/8/09)

PistolPatch said:


> So I don't bore everyone to death, I won't reply individually to the above but thanks very much for the great posts and detail above.
> 
> 
> What alkaline and acid chemicals would you use to clean and sanitize John Guest fittings without wrecking them considering they are made from stainless steel, rubber and nylon?



One data point. When looking for leaks, I used to use my spray bottle of othophosphoric acid made at sanitiser rates, it has a surfactant, so is good for finding leaks. Within a month or so the JG fittings were completely stuffed, the plastic went white, the stainless steel teeth fell out. Those JG fittings do not like acid at all.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (10/8/09)

Guest Lurker said:


> One data point. When looking for leaks, I used to use my spray bottle of othophosphoric acid made at sanitiser rates, it has a surfactant, so is good for finding leaks. Within a month or so the JG fittings were completely stuffed, the plastic went white, the stainless steel teeth fell out. Those JG fittings do not like acid at all.


I was trying to remember what it was that destroyed your JG fittings ! What dilution rate do you use for Ortho sanitiser and do you know the resultant pH? I am assuming you sprayed it on and didnt wash it off ?
GB


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## PistolPatch (10/8/09)

Guest Lurker said:


> One data point. When looking for leaks, I used to use my spray bottle of othophosphoric acid made at sanitiser rates, it has a surfactant, so is good for finding leaks. Within a month or so the JG fittings were completely stuffed, the plastic went white, the stainless steel teeth fell out. Those JG fittings do not like acid at all.



Now that's a scary post! And most informative thanks GL.

One of my biggest worries is that seeing as I have never done any acid cleaning, I imagine I need to give all my stuff a decent go with acid to get things back to scratch. But...

I have JG fittings everywhere and these are damn expensive so I don't want to go damaging them in a single hit. What to do?

If I had my time again, I imagine one correct alkaline/acid procedure would be using something like PBW and Starsan which sounds great after listening to half the Jamil/John show today and which may be why we are seeing so many posts on these products lateley???

Starsan is acidic and acts as a scale inhibitor not a remover so I expect this won't help me get things back on track.

_*Maybe if we use JG fittings, we need to rinse with a third sanitiser which is neutral in pH?*_

I'm thinking of something like Hy-San which is a horticultural sanitiser that [edit: have now deleted their name after discovering the below] got hold of for me 3 years ago and is what I have been using the whole time as my no rinse sanitiser. I've been using it at 1ml per litre as advised but looking at the bottle now it says for, "propagation sanitising," use 100mls per 10lts. [Edit: Unbelievable! I even went to the chemist to buy a 3ml dropper for this!]

It looks like I have been using one tenth of the recommended amount all this time , I'd say that is another major cause of my problems. Not very happy but there you go.

Anyway, maybe a product like this could be good for this purpose if mixed at 10ml per litre? Cost was $24 per bottle back then so that is 100lts per bottle.

Active ingredients are....

Hysan H2O2 12%
Colloidal Silver <0.03gm/L
Hydrous Oxide to 100%

I was told you can drink it too. At least I didn't do that!

Thanks GL,
Pat

P.S. When I said rubber was a component of JG fittings in my post this morning, I was wrong. The O rings in these fittings would be silicone. I had foles post in mind as I wrote which I'll reply to next.


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## PistolPatch (10/8/09)

foles said:


> Hey Pat,
> 
> Are you saying its your plastic fermenter - as in the thing itself? Are you sure? I kept thinking that was the case with my troubles. Maybe its just the rubber seal?



Foles, after the discovery I made in my post above, I am temporarily depressed but I won't throw myself off the top of my beer fridge just yet as I am simply too tired to go and get my ladder .

Maybe some good news to start off though hey?

I finally gained the courage to taste my other 3 beers yesterday and the 2 lagers and other ale I brewed 2 weeks ago are fine.

Though we are having some worthwhile interludes in between on infection prevention, (and by all means, keep those interesting and informative posts coming), this thread is mainly about getting things back on track so I have to work out what to do next.

I really want to use 30lt fermenters as I have 23lt kegs and therefore should be putting about 25.5lts into the fermenter to allow for trub, easy handling (not scraping every last drop) and a few hydrometer readings/tastes which really need 200mls or more if you use a proper hydro jar.

I have one new 30lt fermenter and three old 25lt fermenters. I still want 4 fermenters though so I can brew big in this cooler weather and for next year's ABBD  .

So, I'm not going to stuff around with the fermenter that has the current infection. I've had enough and I don't care what is causing the problem! So, that will get retired and I'll replace it with a new 30lt fermenter which costs $30.

But, your post interests me as I have never liked those fermenter seals. They *are* pretty crap I reckon. I have heaps of them accumulated and their lids as I have experimented with different lid configurations for closed transfers. (You can buy the lids plus seal for $5. But now that I am in a temporary state of not clinical but cleanliness depression and anxiety, I might find out if I can get silcone ones to replace them.

I mean the fermenter seals are crap. They are glued together and if you smell them, you can smell the rubber or whatever in them. They are certainly not ideal.

I'll let you know if I get lucky in finding a source or maybe I'll get Nev to look instead and then he can sell them and save me a hundred phone calls etc.

Having 2 new fermenters is the quickest and most economical way for me to get back on track now that I have finally got it into my head that the problem has always originated there. With these ones I now know to hit them with acid as well as alkaline and after tonight, I know that the steriliser I have been using is not as miraculous as it was made out to be.

With the other 3 fermenters, I'd like to be able to use them to perhaps store diluted cleaning chemicals in. In the two that I know are OK, maybe I can store cleaners/sanitisers that will still allow me to use them for the occasional brew. For the third fermenter which is dodgy, well I don't care what goes in that because it won't see a brew ever again.

So, this begs other questions that I have been unable to ever find clear cut answers to for any chemical with the exception of iodophour...

"How long can you store diluted chemical x for?"
"How many times can you re-use it?"
"Will the chemical work at room temperature?"

etc, etc etc.

What do you reckon Foles 
Pat

P.S. I have to keg a beer tomorrow so am going to hit it with citric acid prior to assembly to hopefully get rid of some of the invisible inorganics that must have built up over all this time. Wish me luck!


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## PistolPatch (14/8/09)

Since my last posts above, I have asked 2 retailers how to clean JG fittings. One who is on-line here and one off-line.

Both have not been able to give me a committed answer and neither of them has indicated to me they will hurry to find an answer let alone ring John Guest. (One of them is sick at the moment so I'll give him that. He's the retailer I have *lent* the BIAB bag design to and now sells a lot of them. He's also a friend of mine but is a lazy retailer when it comes to stuff like this. Anyway, that is ok.)

But, I'm a bit sick too.

I'm sick of asking questions here, (especially when I try to answer so many), that I end up having to find the answers for myself.

So, let's close this futile thread.

Here is what I have found off my own bat and after having to read and listen to a heap of stuff that is apparently obvious to everyone bar me. These are just a few things though. I could do a lot more but why bother if the retailers, the ones who supply us, are happy to give us no advice or wrong advice?

...I started to write a list below but what is the point?

I can point out a heap of bad advice freely given on this forum but what friends do I gain there? I can point out a heap of good advice but how long will that take me to write and who will actually read it?

If the above sounds like sour grapes, then you are spot on. For me to write so much on this forum, give away freely ideas for retailers to profit from and not have one retailer bother to at least say, "I don't know the answer," to a question that is about their product leaves me shaking my head. 

And there you go,
Pat


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## Online Brewing Supplies (14/8/09)

I remember telling you to use beer line cleaner or cellarman both work and are non destructive.Short term memory loss ?
GB


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## AndrewQLD (14/8/09)

Pat, stop posting at 2:00 am, seriously mate you always post back the next day regretting it.
And yes it does sound like sour grapes, HTFU. Maybe nobody knows the answer?

To get back on topic, PBW to clean the JG fittings and Starsan or Phos acid to sanitize or as Gryphon has posted above, excellent advice.

Andrew


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## PistolPatch (14/8/09)

Yeah, I am tired and grumpy. Having a very frustrating brewing and work week. Just wanting to know how to de-scale my JG fittings without wrecking them before I go running 75lts of beer through them. Grump. Grump. Grump.


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## eamonnfoley (14/8/09)

PistolPatch said:


> Foles, after the discovery I made in my post above, I am temporarily depressed but I won't throw myself off the top of my beer fridge just yet as I am simply too tired to go and get my ladder  .
> 
> Maybe some good news to start off though hey?
> 
> ...




Pat, I reckon take the seal out and dont use one at all! Thats what ive done. Does it "really" need to be completely airtight? the CO2 blanket will prevent anything getting to the beer anyway.

On a seperate note - I'm concerned about my plastic fermenter too. The last 2 beers I have done with it have come out cloudy/yeasty, start to clear after a couple pours, then go cloudy the next day repeating the cycle. Doesnt happen out of glass fermenter with the same yeast. Very strange, but probably only a coincedence!

Like you say, a new fermenter is cheap, so you can at least rule it out if it doesnt turn out to be the problem.


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## raven19 (20/10/10)

I think after a reoccurance of this beast at my place (lacto or some type of wild yeast I think) I shall re re-reading this thread I conveniently added to way back when.

I have a Scottish 70 Shilling Ale pitched with a 1968 Yeast Slurry from my fridge (my case swap beer..... fark!!!!!). The Slurry 'beer' ontop tasted fine, pitched straight after chilling, plenty of action and all good through primary. Took a sample two days ago, tasted good - but I foolishly removed the lid for a look-sie...

Tonight - two days after ramping from 18 to 20 (Gravity was down to 1006 by then) I checked and lo and behold I have a new layer of funky growth ontop of the beer. It looks nothing like the 1968 - and gravity is down nice and low so little fermentables left to have it kick off again (imo).

It is ripple like, green/white tinges thoughout. Its quite pretty actually, apart from the fact it is inside my farking fermentor! :angry: 




Taken without flash



Taken with flash

Lesson learnt - I will never take the lid off a fermentor again during ferment!

Thoughts, comments?


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## Hatchy (20/10/10)

Ask Fasty mate. He'd say to bottle it & drink it. Just don't swap it.


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## marksfish (20/10/10)

Hatchy said:


> Ask Fasty mate. He'd say to bottle it & drink it. Just don't swap it.



he would ask for advise first, then ignore it and then bottle it :icon_vomit:


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## raven19 (20/10/10)

Bumping with a side thought, after merely 2 days from last inspection of the brew (which appeared & tasted fine then - as it does now - when a sample was taken from the tap), can something like lacto kick in that quick?

Or is it possible than this is the original yeast making a comback after raising the temp those 2 degrees...?

Considering the CO2 blanket over the beer, alcohol present & bugger all residual sugar left... I'm not ditching this yet.


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## manticle (20/10/10)

I think you should only ditch if it tastes revolting. If there's something, anything, add bugs and age for as long as you can in glass. Add stuff (oak, whicky, fruit, whatever) and be patient. You might make a great beer - just clean the smeg out of everything or reserve it for sours and get new stuff.

otherwise drink it quick before it turns.


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## Dazza88 (20/10/10)

Part of me is very glad to have read this and other part wishes i could have stayed in the "she'll be right mate" frame of mind. 

I am bleaching all equipment before the next brew.


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## marksfish (20/10/10)

lacto can be a dead set bitch, after having a keg full leak on the the carpet every beer seemed to taste like it. however i am paraniod about my beers on tap so this could be ignored!.


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## raven19 (20/10/10)

Thanks guys!

Manticle - I might even post something on babblebet tomorrow too.

Wont be ditching it and I have dregs to add if it is indeed funkified! (Nice low end bitterness so it could work in that regard)

It seems wierd it can kick off to such a degree over 48 hours, after its been happily fermenting as expected up till now.

25L batch = more sampling possible. I guess thats a good thing...


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## manticle (20/10/10)

manticle said:


> I think you should only ditch if it tastes revolting. If there's something, anything, add bugs and age for as long as you can in glass. Add stuff (oak, whicky, fruit, whatever)



Whicky = whisky


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## rotten (20/10/10)

If you want to see what your yeast/brew is doing use gladwrap instead of the lid. OT.
I tried to fix my only ever infection, I just farked it up though so no advice to give there.


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## raven19 (20/10/10)

Yep, the old glad wrap may indeed need another whirl.

My fermentation fridge also needs a severe cleanup I suspect...


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## jbirbeck (21/10/10)

raven19 said:


> I think after a reoccurance of this beast at my place (lacto or some type of wild yeast I think) I shall re re-reading this thread I conveniently added to way back when.
> 
> I have a Scottish 70 Shilling Ale pitched with a 1968 Yeast Slurry from my fridge (my case swap beer..... fark!!!!!). The Slurry 'beer' ontop tasted fine, pitched straight after chilling, plenty of action and all good through primary. Took a sample two days ago, tasted good - but I foolishly removed the lid for a look-sie...
> 
> ...



Looks like something I've had before...think I'd worked it out to be aceto but a lot of these bugs show similar skins...The infection I had that looked the same you could bottle from underneath without difficulties and the beer was good if you catch it quickly. 

Otherwise add bugs and wait for a few months for a tasty sour.


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## A3k (21/10/10)

Yeah, i had something that looked like that. 
The beer tasted/smelt like nail polish mixed with vinegar. Made it's way to the lawn.

Either much worse than yours, or completely different though, as samples were unbearable.

Raven, did you notice any sour smell when you took the lid off?

Cheers,
Al


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## TasChris (21/10/10)

I have found that poor fridge hygiene has been the definite starting point of one of my infections.
Using some sort of temp controller with the fridge leads to the fridge rising above the temp set point at which stage it turns itself on and works flat out till it reaches the correct temperature, and then it switches off. 
As the temperature inside the fridge cools, moisture precipitates out of the air onto the surface of the keg or fermenter which will be several degrease cooler than the ambient air temp of the fridge due to thermal mass ( obviously this varies with how and where you have your temperature probe). 
These droplets of water in the fridge now mix with all those splashes of wort and beer in the fridge that we all meant to clean up but never did and this mixture now is starting to warm and ferment until the next cooling cycle of the fridge begins again. If I dont open the door of my fridge the fridge can remain off for a considerable period (day/s) before it rises above the set point to fire the fridge up again. 
Repeat this cycle again and again and it is no wonder that kegging and fermenting fridges all seem to get the most amazing blooms of molds and I am sure other evil lurgies, after all we are providing excellent environments to grow them, warmish, moist, dark and with a free source of food.
Opening the lid of the fermenter or keg whilst in fridge has to dramatically increase the chance of infection but then again some brewers successfully brew without lids or with a glad wrap covering.
Cleaning the fridge and airing it out from time to time has now become part of my cleaning regime. Every time I finish a keg or a finish fermenting I wipe down the inside of the fried and spray with a sanitiser.
Mind you I live in a place where everything grows mold!
Cheers
Chris


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## raven19 (21/10/10)

More excellent tips and points fellas - really appreciate the input.

Will rack from underneath tonight for sure. And will taste and smell with a bit more of a critique.

My fridge is certainly a biohazard atm, reinforcing my laziness there TasChris! I shall be giving it a good cleanout tonight. My ferment fridge is an old beast that pools the condensation in the bottom - and it has no drain hole. Certainly an ideal growing source for all things nasty.


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## drsmurto (21/10/10)

Raven - are you able to get a sample to RK or Boston by tomorrow afternoon?

The BJCP study group is gathering tomorrow night and we could taste it for you and give you some of idea of what we may think it is. Coincides with the funky session so it may sit well against gueze, lambics etc h34r:


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## raven19 (21/10/10)

I am home after training tonight and brewing a replacement case swap beer tomorrow night at home. Will email re: a drop off of some.


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## raven19 (27/10/10)

So initial thoughts from the Adelaide BJCP study group were dusty & musty flavour, the sample of the top cropping was stinky but the thoughts were Mould.

Further more, after racking off the beer from underneath (and leaving the last 5L or so in the fermentor for a couple of days), I opened the lid to see the infection bigger than ever on top, and the fumes were strong vinegar - it almost took my head off! I have bottled a few beers and will transfer the remainder into a keg from secondary (headspace purged with CO2) soon.

If it was indeed mould, then I am hoping to save this brew, and worst case I shall lambic it up.

Most probable infection based on info and input from others in the know: *Aceto (mould) bacteria infection *on the surface of brew.

So I have nuked the fridge, let it air dry and cleaned the fermentor. Of note the fridge had some small black mould spots on the door lining which were easily cleaned up (but not noticed by myself until closer inspection). Note to make this a regular part of my cleaning regime.

The next brew is actively fermenting atm, and I wont be peeking under the lid this time!

If Wiki is to be believed, then I could get into Vinegar production! :icon_vomit: 
Wiki Linky on Vinegar


Some more reference info from Palmer below.

Quote below taken from Palmers (Page Linky):
*"Symptom: It smells like vinegar.* *Cause 1: Bacteria *In this case, it probably is. Aceto bacteria (vinegar producing) and Lacto bacteria (lactic acid producing) are common contaminates in breweries. Sometimes the infection will produce sweet smells like malt vinegar, other times they will produce cidery smells. It will depend on which bug is living in your wort. Aceto bacteria often produce ropy strands of jelly which can be a good visual indicator, as can excessive cloudiness, after several weeks in the fermentor (although some cloudiness is not unusual, especially in all-grain beers). 
*Cure:* If you don't like the taste, then pour it out. Lactic infections are desired in some beer styles."


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## drsmurto (27/10/10)

Your beer wasn't the hardest thing we sampled on Friday night! Some of the lambics were hard work.....

Did you get the samples we saved for you? Boston was tipping the dregs from various lambics into a stubby...... :icon_drool2:


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## Fents (27/10/10)

Got a brand new type of Infection at home last night.

I'm Calling it Antismaximus.

Looks like Acto (white spots on top) but upon closer inspection Its got black little creatures with it called ANTS.

Dont get LAZY fermenting. I had no glad wrap, so i grabbed an old fermenter lid but instead of screwing it down i just sat it on top and left it unscrewed. Couple of wort drips down the side of the fermenter and the ants were onto it like shit to a fly.

Forgive me for have learned not to be so lazy.


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## raven19 (27/10/10)

DrSmurto said:


> Your beer wasn't the hardest thing we sampled on Friday night! Some of the lambics were hard work.....
> 
> Did you get the samples we saved for you? Boston was tipping the dregs from various lambics into a stubby...... :icon_drool2:



Thanks fella! RK has them stored safely for me I believe mate.

Fents - that is a bug-(no pun intended)-ger!


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