# Back to what originally lead me to AG, Hahn Super Dry like megaswill.



## mattjm (24/4/16)

Ok so hopefully I get some decent advice and not a heap of BS comments about how bad this style is or why I shouldn't brew it.

When I first made the decision to go to AG I wanted to see if I could imitate what the Aussie big boys do and brew something acceptable to the masses for me that is Mr Hahns Super Duper Dry. My mates drink this stuff by the gallons and although my tastes have changed quite alot towards ales and Ive found myself trying to get close to something like LCPA and experimenting with my own styles I still harbour the desire to pull this off.

Ive done some research and combined that with a few things I already have to come up with the following recipe but Im more than willing to change it if Im off track.

3.5kg Weyerman Pills
0.5 kg Cane Sugar (raw sugar straight off the shelf at woolies?)

Grainfather with 13L of water mashed at 63c for 2 hours adding final 10% of the grain equally at 60 and 90 minutes. Mash out at 74 10 minutes, 77 for 20 (???), Sparge 77c with 18l.

60 min boil 

10g sazz @ 60 minutes
10g cluster @ 60

10g sazz @ 30 min
5g Cluster @ 30

10g Sazz @ 0 min

Ferment @ 13c @ 18psi with s23 for 4 days and raise to 18c for 6 days before cold crashing for a week once FG steady (1.006?)

Again I'm doing this because: I want to see that I can replicate this style successfully, I have 4 styles on tap at any time and I want one to be a session megaswill, Im not asking you to drink it and the blokes that will be actually enjoy this style, I tried pissing in a bottle and leaving it in the sun and did not find it as refreshing as the original and I dont have a cat.

Please I took the time to do some resaerch, it may not be perfect but *genuine sugestions only.*


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## mattjm (24/4/16)

Also very open to using 5kg of wey pills with 1kg of sugar and diluting with deoxygenated water post ferment to make a double batch as once I get the recipe right I think this is more likely how I will make it, Hopefully 2 packs of s23 would cover this otherwise id prob go to danish lager yeast and bulid up a starter. 
Hops wise Im open to the idea of more Cluster, POR, Hallertauer Hersbruker and I have heaps of Tettenang and centenial and cascade already if they could be used.
Lots of ideas at the moment but id like to get a refined recipe before I try to brew.


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## Dan Pratt (24/4/16)

2 parts of advice are water and yeast pitch. 

The water should be very neutral so using rain or distilled water will achieve that. Reason is the style is ultra clean and any flaw will show, so normal tap water wont cut it.

Yeast, make a faux lager with a single packet of yeast and then use that entire yeast cake but pitched lower and ferment lower. Not sure you will need pressure but if you usually ferment like that by all means. 

The malt and hops look ok, not sure why you would add 10% later in the mash? Oh and even lower on the temp 62 is the target.


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## Benn (24/4/16)

There's a time and a place for any beer.
If you can replicate a Hahn super dry that doesn't give you and your mates a radical hangover after a good session then you've had a win.


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## wynnum1 (24/4/16)

Give rice a try did 4 kg grain - 1 kg rice but came out a bit strong for 23 L may have not measured grain weight properly very light in color .


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## mattjm (24/4/16)

I thought by adding the extra grain throughout the long mash schedule it helped spark up the enzyme activity and helped to achieve the dry style Im going for, as for the pressure I havnt done it yet but I thought it would help me avoid any off tastes and replicate what the mega breweries do. Its easy enough for me to achieve as I ferment in a stainless conical with a brewpi converted fridge. The pressure is also why I believed I could fermen slightly higher and quicker than my usual lager temps?

Im leaning towards having a crack with 20l of distilled water, 3.5kg wey pills and 0.5kg sugar or BE2 if people believe its more appropriate and a combo of saazz and cluster as I could whack it on today with those ingrediants? 

What is the advantage of the rice other than avoiding a stuck mash, Im yet to have problems with that using the GF but my grain bill is ussually slightly larger.


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## Dan Pratt (24/4/16)

Try the cluster saaz combo and with dextrose added at the last 10mins. Your enzyme activity will be peaking with pilsner malt and low temps so no need to add as you go. 

Getting your yeast to about 600billion will lead to a cleaner beer which is what you need.


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## mattjm (24/4/16)

Will 2 packets of s23 rehydrated prior to pitching be enough to achieve this?
I was thinking cane sugar as I thought thats what Hahn do anyway, either way does it get added at the end of the boil I had in my head it could be in the grain bill but that makes more sense?
Should I add a little specialty grain to add colour?
On a side note I just started mixing my 50/50 pours of my latest hoppy APA with a Red Ale I made and found a little heavy and Im enjoying it that much I may end up to drunk to brew anything today.


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## manticle (24/4/16)

Go white sugar or dex.
I think bribie has some good info about mash schedules for megas.
I think you may need to look at a dry enzyme for anything 'super' dry.


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## TheWiggman (24/4/16)

Hahn Super dry is one of the better Aussie lagers out there in my opinion, it tends to get rubbished less than other beers. Personally I'll take it over a Carlton Draught or Gold any day. Beats Carlton Dry too (I'm still baffled at how popular that beer is). 
Dicko did a post on the FG of Dry and it came in 0.998 i.e lighter than water, so manticle is bang on with the drying enzyme. A euro malt wouldn't go astray but the base malt is Australian pale so Joe White Pilsner and BB pale would be the first choice. There's also some roasted malt in there as well as 'speciality malt', which would probably be a handful of Vienna and maybe 20g of roast barley in a 23l batch. Go min 25% dextrose by extract. 
Hops-wise they only use extract, an Aus and US at that. Cluster and PoR might be right but some restrained hersbrucker late would be well suited I believe. 
Use a super-clean water profile, mash low and long and don't muck around with the yeast pitch. I'd ferment low unlike some of the other Aussie beers and use something like 34/70 or 2000, pitching at 11°C and keeping it there. 
As for the drying enzyme... read up on it because my knowledge stops there. As much as we beer snobs may diss Mr Hahn and co for the beers he produces there is great skill and experience that goes into producing this beer and it is incredibly hard to clone on a home brew level. If you disagree save it, I'm not up for a flame war. Good luck OP and keep us posted.


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## mattjm (24/4/16)

Im hoping I will disagree once I taste my try at this but Im thinking It will be difficult. Im thinking Ill go close to my original suggestion and add a little barley and vienna into the bill and an hersbruker adition at flame out.


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## Bribie G (24/4/16)

I'd give it a low mash at around 63 degrees for 2 hours to dry it out as much as possible, then go straight up to mashout to pick up any starch that may not have been converted. Rice is a good suggestion, it gets converted in the mash to maltose (glucose/glucose) as opposed to cane sugar that is sucrose (glucose/fructose) so the yeast treats it as if it's come from the malt anyway.

edit: cook it to a porridge-like mush in a stockpot then when it's cooled to around 73 degrees, add half a kilo of your base malt and stir it in well, it will quickly thin out to a runny 'soup' as the alpha amylase quickly zaps the starches. Then let it cool to 63 and tip in with the rest of the mash.

I don't know if they use any late hops, I wouldn't bother with Hersbrucker at the end unless you are aiming for something more like Cascade Premium Lager. I'd definitely try the drying enzyme, many of the LHBS seem to stock the stuff as well as most of the online guys.

Hahn Super Dry was my go to beer at the Manning Point bowlo when SWMBO used to visit her daughter there and I escaped over the road for a session :lol:


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## MHB (24/4/16)

Manticle is right about the enzyme and the white sugar.
you can use a mash enzyme (Amlo 25 or the like) or a fermenter enzyme like the little sachets of "Dry Enzyme" you can get at home brew shops, the latter are probably cheaper and easier but you cant stop them if the beer is getting too dry, the mash enzyme (with a bit of practice) you can leave some body in the beer by controlling how much you add, when and by denaturing the enzyme when you boil.

I think I would start with an Australian Pilsner Malt 79% of extract. Lion use Joe White (I would use BB Pils)
White sugar 20% of extract
Carra-something light as a colour adjustment ~1% or as needed (maybe CarraHell just to avoid piss yellow)

From what I have heard the hopping is Super Prides at 60 minutes
Hersbrucker as late as you can, (end of boil or whirlpool) only about 0.25g/L (might be too much for a clone). Total IBU's less than 20 (try about 16 IBU)

I would use dry Saf34/70 or a good Bavarian liquid yeast, something that throws very few flavours and will attenuate better than S-23.
If you have a good fridge controller, pitch a shed load of yeast (see what Pratty said) at about 8oC, let rise to 10oC for main ferment, at terminal gravity, ramp down to lagering temperatures (0oC+/-1) at about 1.5oC/day.
You don't need a Diacetyl rest unless there is a lot of diacetyl, and the yeast wont just croke (well play dead) like it will if you drop the temp too fast, it will clean up as it cools which actually works out faster than taking the temperature up and then down.
Say 14 days from pitch to glass. (more would be better)

If you are going to use ultra pure water you still want 50-100ppm of Calcium and you still want your pH optimised for Beta Amylase.

I know people bag out this type of beer but its bloody challenging to brew well, have fun.
I would buy a bottle, taste the beer, keep enough to take an Hydrometer reading, working back from FG, with the stated alcohol content gives you OG and apparent attenuation, might help with yeast choices.
Mark
Mark


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## mattjm (24/4/16)

How about:

2.5kg Weyerman Pilsner, 20g roasted barley, 200g vienna?? and .5kg of rice for a 2 hour mash at 62, cranked to 77c to mash out and sparge and then .5kg dextrose into the boil.
Hopped with cluster and saaz.

ABV 4.5%

When and how much dry enzymes if I was to add to the mash as Mark suggests?

How many billion cells it I pitched 2 packs of 34/70?

How would I go with this ferm profile:
Chill and transfer to fermenter at around 24c chill overnight to 8c and pitch in the morning, ramp up to 10c over a day, hold at 10c and allow to ferment at pressure (15psi or so) all the way to FG, ramp to 14 over 2 days and hold for 2 just to be sure, ramp to 0c over 7 days hold for 7 days?

I dont need to rush this as its not something I would often drink anyway more the technical challenge/satisfaction of seeing others enjoy it and a pathway to opening them up to other things I brew.

I recently did a very simple lager/stella artois clone that was just pills and saazz fermented with 34/70 and I actually really enjoyed it although it had a little too high a residual sweetness I put down to not mashing at a lower enough temp for long enough as I left it in the primary for about 8 weeks due to a fishing trip so I was confident I gave it a good chance to fully ferment.


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## MHB (24/4/16)

Too complex, keep it really simple, I think 20g of roast would be too dark, you are looking for hue rather than colour.
Cluster is one of the fruitiest hops on the market I would avoid it for this beer (use POR)
You want a really big yeast cake (Huge!) best would be to pitch on first attempts yeast cake (you could do a half batch with 2 packets, then pitch on that, equivalent to ~ 6-8 packs) How many cells in a dry yeast is a can of worms!
M


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## mattjm (24/4/16)

Hows this sound: 5kg of Pills hopped with sazz put on tomorrow with 34/70 and when I rack that to a secondary in about a week drop the Super Dry recipe staight on top (or am I kinda missing the point you guys are suggesting). If I do this, am I better to drop the first trub after a couple of days or leave it all there for the next beer to go onto??

Any problem with the ferm profile it might be a little more complex then required however Im not too concerned as its automated by the brewpi anyway, my only imput would be the diacetyl rest/bump to finish after a couple of stable FG readings.


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## mattjm (24/4/16)

wasnt really expecting to have to make a beer first and I thought pitching on top of old yeast cake was bad practice but if its going to give me a better beer ill give it a shot.


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## Markbeer (25/4/16)

For the first beer you don't have to make your super dry beer. You just need to make a light coloured beer with no dry hopping. Medium gravity or less. You can of course repitch yeast cake over a few times as you want this to be a regular.

I can't remember where I heard, but a lot of big breweries mash hot. 69 degrees to get better efficiency. Then use an enzyme to break down for the correct attenuation. Some also brew over gravity then water down. That being said you aren't trying to copy their technique only their beer. 

You can of course introduce them to something like Sam Adams Boston lager. A beer that I Would love to have on tap and clone and I can't think of many people who wouldn't rate it.


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## MHB (25/4/16)

You would probably be looking at about 5g of heavy yeast slurry/L of wort, with that size pitch - given that your wort is well aerated primary should only take 3-4 days even at 8-10oC.
There is no need to bump the temperature up to make the yeast finish off or remove diacetyl - unless the yeast hasn't finished the job, or you have excessive diacetyl - heating the wort up is a remedial step, generally to compensate for under pitching, poor aeration, badly made wort...
I would make a boring little blond, pitch a reasonable amount of yeast and ferment at 10oC+/-1, rack the beer after two-three days, to eliminate any old, lazy, dead yeast and trub. When the beer is finished rack again or package, then pitch the second beer onto the second yeast cake (it's a lot cleaner).

In terms of ingredients Lager is usually pretty simple, in terms of process it tends to be quite complicated. It might be worth your while doing a bit more study on the whys and how's of lager brewing. I just took my own advice and googled "how to brew lager" there is plenty of good information there but I think I would read this one first - 10 Keys to Great Lager. Just remember that when you ask 3 brewers for advice you will get at least 4 opinions. Not wrong but there are lots of different ways to achieve the outcome you are looking for, different tastes, equipment and processes will make different beer, Do some reading, write down a recipe and a process, brew the beer then revise. Get some other trained judges to taste your beer (stick it in comps) revise...

Markbeer, yep it would be nice to have the Sam Adams on tap as a house lager - that brewery accounts for most of the Hallertau Mittlefruh entering the US - no prizes for guessing where it goes.

Mark


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## Reman (25/4/16)

I think someone mentioned it before but hitting the right mash ph might be a challenge, might be an idea to run it through a water spreadsheet to see where it comes out at. If adjustments are required, the phosphoric acid is the most flavour neutral.

For yeast the megas tend to use carlsberg, aka Danish.


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## mattjm (25/4/16)

Ok so im putting this on hold for the weekend. Im going to spend the week researching water chemistry and then have another crack at the Stella Artois clone next week, I did a side by side last time and from my simple recipe of pills and sazz found it tasted identical other than a few subtle differences. A touch sweeter, a little more body (mine) and something kind of difficult to explain but best compared to drinking spring water as oppose to tap water. The real mcoy bought out a little more of a cleaner more simple forward tasting bitterness to the hops. It was perhaps softer and just cleaner.

I want to try to try to replicate this recipe but this time start with RO water (can purchase locally for aquariums at 14c a litre) than build the water profile myself, I will then have a crack at the super dry recipe with the same water profile before pitching again on the same yeast for a tettenang/Perle helles and see where all three beers end up. by then I will be craving an APA/IPA so Im going to do my APA and continue with the pitching on the yeast cake idea to make a Pliny the Elder.

Well thats the plan anyway. Was pretty happy with what Ive been making but now starting to feel a little bit like Im learning from scratch again. Definately open to any advice on the basics of building RO water up to a good base for a very light and neutral lager profile. In the mean time Ill be reading about water chemistry and mash ph.


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## mattjm (27/4/16)

Ive purchased some wyeast danish lager yeast and will be doing a yeast starter for the first time, going to go for a low (61c) long mash single wey pills (5kg) mash and hop with saaz.

If I use 100% RO water and add gypsum, calc chloride and epsom salt to achieve the following profile: Ca 60, Mg 8, Sodium 0, Chloride 67, sulphate 87 chloride/sulph 0.77.

Am I in the ballpark? Im using Ez water calc, is there any advantage to treating mash and sparge water or should i just treat mash? considering all RO water should be equal enough for brewing purpose can anyone point me towards some simple additions for different lagers and ales?


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## Dan Pratt (28/4/16)

Look up brun water online and use the pilsner water profile, from memory its less then 10ppm per section. Having 50-60ppm for sulphate and chloride is too much.


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## Bribie G (28/4/16)

If you are looking to emulate Aussie mega beers, a suitable fermentation schedule for Wyeast Danish is to pitch at 13 degrees and keep it there for a few days, then let it slowly rise to round 19 degrees. Ten days in total.
Then take down to around 2 or 3 degrees for another ten days.

ed: took out second in the Pale Lagers in the Nats a couple of years ago.


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## Matplat (28/4/16)

Pratty1 said:


> Look up brun water online and use the pilsner water profile, from memory its less then 10ppm per section. Having 50-60ppm for sulphate and chloride is too much.


Ca 7ppm, Mg 2ppm, Na 2ppm, SO4 8ppm, CL2 6ppm, HCO3 16ppm


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## mattjm (28/4/16)

So start with 100% RO and make additions till I get to that profile and then check mash PH and adlust if necesary to 5.4-5.6 with acidulated malt. Will follow Bribie G recommendation for ferm schedule.


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## mattjm (29/4/16)

My first ever starter is on the stirplate now Danish Lager 2L (1.040), should this be ample to pitch straight to a super dry beer or am I still more likely to get an improved beer from my second try pitched onto the yeast cake?


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## Dan Pratt (29/4/16)

Make the same beer twice, the first one with the 2L starter and then the second into the yeast cake and then do a side by side to see how they compare. Then you will know which is best.


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## wynnum1 (29/4/16)

If you use the yeast cake get the temperate down to fementation temperate can go quickly if pitch too high .


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## mattjm (29/4/16)

Yeah Im thinking I will either have to pitch into another container from my grainfather and let temp stabilise over night before pouring into the conical or drop the yeast cake from the conical and repitch it in once Im happy the wort has dropped to 13c-14c.

Maybe another option would be to build a little imersion chiller out of copper tube and run my cooling water through that sitting in an ice slurry bath to get better cooling efficiency, just depends how hot a day it is.


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## mattjm (8/5/16)

Ok so first crack went down today:

Stella clone has had 6 days in primary @ 14c (7-8psi) with a small trub dump prior to pitching and another small one 3 days into ferment.

Made the following recipe today ready to dump onto the Wyeast 2042 danish lager yeast cake:

RO water plus 0.1g/L calcium sulphate and 0.1g/L calcium chloride

3.5kg BB Pale
0.2kg JW Vienna 
50g Weyerman Acidulated

70 mins @ 62c 14L
10 mins @ 77c
17L sparge @ 77c

60 min 20g Pride of Ringwood
30 min 10g saaz
20 min 0.5kg Coopers Brewing Sugar (80%dextrose 20%maltodextrin) and half Whirfloc Tablet
0 min 10g Hallertau Hersbruker

Measure OG = 1.035 for 21L into cube.

Cooled to approx 25c into a cube which is chilling down to roughly 14 c before dropping onto the yeast cake.


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## mattjm (8/5/16)

Ive got some a dry enzyme satchel I am considering adding to the fermenter, debating whether or not it is neded to match this style?


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## fletcher (9/5/16)

mattjm said:


> Ive got some a dry enzyme satchel I am considering adding to the fermenter, debating whether or not it is neded to match this style?


for the first or second batch?

i've used it once on a 1.032 brew (pale malt and polenta) mashed at 64 for 90 mins, and it got to 1.000.

EDIT: added it when pitching yeast.


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## Dan Pratt (9/5/16)

mattjm said:


> Ive got some a dry enzyme satchel I am considering adding to the fermenter, debating whether or not it is neded to match this style?


Try the final beers before you go with enzymes, it will chew right through to 000 or less and change the flavour profile. Many beers to make, one step at a time. 

Are you fermenting under pressure?


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## mattjm (9/5/16)

Yes Im using a spunding valve on my conical. This is my first time using the valve so it hasn't been to any exact pressure. Im considering splitting half this batch to a cube after 3 days and adding the enzymes to only half the batch in the conical.


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## Dan Pratt (9/5/16)

Good idea to see what the enzymes do.


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