# Brewing With Beetroot



## Malnourished (31/1/06)

(Apologies for cross-posting this, but I'm really keen to show off my new Imagestation skills :lol: )

A while back Neonmeate brewed a Beetroot Brettanomyces Barleywine which I was lucky enough to be able to taste. In a discussion on another board it was mentioned that when you mash beetroot the resulting beer loses the colour. Neonmeate's beer was the colour of blood, but he added the beetroot to the secondary, so I was keen to test it out. 

Anyway I got around to finally brewing this beer on the weekend and it's true! The runoff was a beautiful beetroot colour, but after the boil it had changed to more of an orangey-pink, kind of like that Schweppes Agrum soft drink. Weird.

I took some photos which can be viewed here

Anyone have any idea why this would happen? I wish my beer was still purple


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## Ross (31/1/06)

Malnourished said:


> (Apologies for cross-posting this, but I'm really keen to show off my new Imagestation skills :lol: )
> 
> A while back Neonmeate brewed a Beetroot Brettanomyces Barleywine which I was lucky enough to be able to taste. In a discussion on another board it was mentioned that when you mash beetroot the resulting beer loses the colour. Neonmeate's beer was the colour of blood, but he added the beetroot to the secondary, so I was keen to test it out.
> 
> ...



Jeez - I got stick for putting bananas in my beer :blink: ... I can't stomach beetroot at the best of times, what does it add to the beer??

Guess it must have been good if making after trying someone elses  ...

Sorry, don't know the answer to the colour question - looks nice though...


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## Kai (31/1/06)

The technical answer would be that it's doing something funny to the anthocyanins, I imagine.


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## Tseay (31/1/06)

From my research, the answer probably goes along the folllowing lines: 

The red colouring in beetroot is the result of two pigments. A yellow agent 
( Beaxanthin) and a purple pigment (Betacyanin). These pigments stabelise in acid conditions, which is why beetroot is often pickled. 

"Betacyanins are fairly stable under food processing conditions, although heating in the presence of air at neutral pH values causes breakdown to brown compounds. The colour of betacyanin solutions was stable at low temperature. Half-life at 25 oC is 413.6 min vs. 83.5 min at 60 oC"

So in a boiler for 70 minutes ( although an acidic environment) you can imagine the purpule pigment would be going south quickly. It would seem the more the purple pigment breaks down the yellower the mix should become.

It seems to me that what you've experienced is what you would expect and your friend's result (ie intense red) seems to be unusual. Unless of course he was using some other source of colour. eg crystall etc. alternatively was the big difference in boil times ?

Also it appears that the ratio of red to yellow pigment varies between species of beetroot.

Cheers

T


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## Ross (31/1/06)

Tseay said:


> It seems to me that what you've experienced is what you would expect and your friend's result (ie intense red) seems to be unusual. Unless of course he was using some other source of colour. eg crystall etc. alternatively was the big difference in boil times ?
> 
> [post="105685"][/post]​



Guess it might have something to do with the fact that Neomeate added to the secondary not the kettle  ...


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## Malnourished (31/1/06)

Wow! Thanks Tseay! Great answer.

Geez Ross, you must be nuts putting banana in a beer. That's crazy!  Actually I figure the beetroot is just a source (a very inefficient one at that) of basic starches. I don't expect it to taste strongly of beetroot, though a subtle touch would be nice. I really wanted to make purple beer though...


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## neonmeate (31/1/06)

it was already quite a dark barleywine - sort of mahogany-brown. adding the beetroot though made it go incredibly rich red with a bright pink head! perhaps the acidity added by the brettanomyces "pickled" it. or perhaps the 12-14% (i have no real idea but it's high) alcohol preserved the colour too.
i didnt boil the beetroot - i cooked it (baked with the skin on so as not to lose liquid) then mashed it up and threw it in secondary, then racked it off to bottle after leaving a couple of months for the yeast to get through the extra sugars.

i liked the taste but then beetroot is easily my favourite vegetable! the earthy sweetness matches rich malt really well IMO... i also make a chocolate and beetroot cake which has to be eaten to be believed.

i'll have to try it again one of these days...perhaps without the brett...


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## neonmeate (31/1/06)

just an idea, er, "mal", did you cook your beetroot?


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## Tseay (31/1/06)

Apparently if the skin is left on during cooking it will maintain the cell integrity and minimise leakage of the pigments


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## Jim_Levet (31/1/06)

Well you can beat an egg, but you can't beet a root!
sorry
James


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## neonmeate (31/1/06)

Jim_Levet said:


> Well you can beat an egg, but you can't beet a root!
> sorry
> James
> [post="105698"][/post]​



hear hear, i mean "har, har"


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## warrenlw63 (31/1/06)

Beetroot?!

We'll have to call you Bert Baxter NM.  

(Anyone ever watch the Adrian Moll series on the ABC?) :unsure: 

Warren -


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## neonmeate (31/1/06)

yeah i used to watch that but i don't remember a lot about bert baxter (beer has dislodged a lot of other stuff in my brain). did he like beetroot? or do you just like alliteration?


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## Malnourished (31/1/06)

neonmeate said:


> just an idea, er, "mal", did you cook your beetroot?


Yep, but I boiled them in water, then chucked the whole lot in the mash. Didn't you look at the pictures????  

Care to share the cake recipe?


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## neonmeate (31/1/06)

Malnourished said:


> neonmeate said:
> 
> 
> > just an idea, er, "mal", did you cook your beetroot?
> ...



doh, thought i had to sign up for a username to look at em.

well you might have lost a little bit of colour boiling them up already peeled and chopped in the first place but it looks as though the runoff was a nice colour...

what i don't know (having no idea about biochemistry) is how the cooking affects the starches? i know beetroot has a high sugar content but how starchy is it? does it in fact need to be mashed? i wonder if throwing them in secondary left some starch around which caused the gusher that wrecked your carpet?

cake is something like: flour, baking powder, eggs, cocoa powder (or melted chocolate), vegetable oil in normal proportions for a chocolate cake, then add i think two medium beetroots pre-baked for 90 mins, peeled and mashed to mush. cook the cake. cool. eat with king island double cream. or a nice thick natural yoghurt.


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## DrewCarey82 (31/1/06)

> Jeez - I got stick for putting bananas in my beer :blink: ... I can't stomach beetroot at the best of times, what does it add to the beer??
> 
> Guess it must have been good if making after trying someone elses  ...
> 
> Sorry, don't know the answer to the colour question - looks nice though...



How can people not love betroot goes great/u beaut on a burger.


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## Malnourished (31/1/06)

neonmeate said:


> what i don't know (having no idea about biochemistry) is how the cooking affects the starches? i know beetroot has a high sugar content but how starchy is it? does it in fact need to be mashed? i wonder if throwing them in secondary left some starch around which caused the gusher that wrecked your carpet?


My understanding is that baking won't convert any starches (like how all those Yank pumpkin ales mash the pumpkin after roasting) but I could be wrong. Starches + brett in a bottle is a sure-fire recipe for a gusher I reckon, but perhaps after 6+ months in secondary all the starches would be eaten up? Secondary sure seems like the way to keep that great beetroot flavour. I reckon a brett beetroot imperial stout done that way would be pretty grouse. And it didn't wreck the carpet - it came straight out. I was shocked.



neonmeate said:


> cake is something like: flour, baking powder, eggs, cocoa powder (or melted chocolate), vegetable oil in normal proportions for a chocolate cake, then add i think two medium beetroots pre-baked for 90 mins, peeled and mashed to mush. cook the cake. cool. eat with king island double cream. or a nice thick natural yoghurt.


Ta. Sounds a lot like something I do with bananas (there ya go Ross!) Don't think it'd go all that well with beetroot saison though, sadly.


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## warrenlw63 (31/1/06)

neonmeate said:


> yeah i used to watch that but i don't remember a lot about bert baxter (beer has dislodged a lot of other stuff in my brain). did he like beetroot? or do you just like alliteration?
> [post="105704"][/post]​



Old Bert was always munching on a jar of pickled beetrot. As witnessed by the staining around the top of his shirt. :blink: 

Bert Baxter broke his bowels bottom burping beetroot. :wacko: 

Just let it be known my alliteration sucks arse. :lol: 

Warren -


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## neonmeate (31/1/06)

warrenlw63 said:


> neonmeate said:
> 
> 
> > yeah i used to watch that but i don't remember a lot about bert baxter (beer has dislodged a lot of other stuff in my brain). did he like beetroot? or do you just like alliteration?
> ...



bert baxter brewed and bottled a big batch of brettanomyces beetroot barley wine. boom! the bottles began to burst. "bugger!" he bellowed belligerently, bending to bin the broken bits of beerbottle.


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## warrenlw63 (31/1/06)

looking lively lying lovingly on lino licking it up.  

Warren -


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## neonmeate (31/1/06)

ok i found someone even crazier about beetroot than me: this guy has literally written a tome on the vegetable! 

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/S...m/beetroot6.htm
apparently it's an antioxidant, anticarcinogen, aphrodisiac, anti-depressant, mild laxative and stimulant to the immune system.... and of its carbohydrate content, virtually all of it (whether raw or cooked) is sugar. starch is present but in very small amounts, and there's negligible starch in pickled form for some reason.

so there you go. i don't think mashing is needed.


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## Simon W (31/1/06)

neonmeate said:


> .... and of its carbohydrate content, virtually all of it (whether raw or cooked) is sugar....



Isn't white sugar in the US beet sugar, like ours is cane sugar?
I think I read that in Palmer's book or somethng.


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## Malnourished (31/1/06)

neonmeate said:


> so there you go. i don't think mashing is needed.


Right, that's it. I'm adding some to secondary.

Does anybody know how much starch is too much? Assuming starch has the potential to give the same carbonation as sugar, the starch in 1kg of beetroot in 20L of beer has the potential to produce as much CO2 as 7g of sugar would. 

Seems pretty minimal to me, but over time, wouldn't the starches would be eaten by non-saccharomyces strains which would in turn also have the ability to ferment dextrins etc. that aren't fermentable by sacch.? But these yeast/bacteria would have to already be in the beer (in however small concentrations) anyway, so they could potentially be eating dextrins in every beer brewed, wouldn't they?

Guess I'll bottle in heavy glass and find out!


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## BrissyBrew (31/1/06)

I have had beetroot wine, all I can say is I dont remember much except for the next day feelling rather nasty


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## poppa joe (31/1/06)

Looks like we might need" JAMIE OLIVER "on this one :blink: 
Cheers
PJ :beerbang:


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## tangent (1/2/06)

good to see you're using non-tinned beetroot
i dare say, that's what most people would be used to in Oz for burgers etc. and why a lot of people don't like it.
It's like tuna, the good stuff doesn't go in a can. The difference between a tuna steak and tuna from the can is HUGE.
I'd hazard a guess that the tinned stuff is stabilised with a food acid, so maybe just add some juice to secondary for colour.


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## Malnourished (6/4/06)

In case anyone's interested, the beer is now bottled and conditioned, and it's actually quite good! Perhaps not coincidentally it doesn't taste a great deal of beetroot, but it does seem to have a soft, fruity sweetness not dissimilar to beetroot and it has a bit of earthy, beetroot skin character in the finish.

That Dupont yeast is incredible stuff. I pitched 31C (not a typo) wort onto a yeast cake and it's WAY cleaner than fermenting at 23-25C. And not surprisingly it finishes a lot quicker too!


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## Stuster (7/4/06)

Wow. What a colour. Good to hear about the results of the experiment, Malnourished (no longer).

I wonder how much of that flavour is coming from the yeast. Was it the White Labs one, or cultured up from the bottle? Sounds like a great yeast for the summer.


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