# Protein Rests



## Nick JD (11/8/11)

Recently, I've been getting into 15 minute protein rests at 53C. I never could be bothered before, but since my hot tap temperature is a perfect strike temperature to get a protein rest of 52C, I've been doing them.

Here's a Cascade Golden with 15% sucrose in it, mashed at 66C. Leaves so much lacing on the glass the next day the glass needs scrubbing. 

I'm converted, as it actually makes my mashing easier not having to apply heat to the pot at all. What do the folk out there think of the protein rest?


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## AndrewQLD (11/8/11)

I'm a big fan although I prefer 55.
Nice picture lace is a beautiful thing.


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## Bribie G (11/8/11)

I've also decided to start doing protein rests. The "perceived wisdom" around this forum when I started mashing was the somewhat half arsed notion that modern malts don't need a protein rest and that doing so may well result in poor head retention. However as the book I'm currently reading "Munich Helles" by Horst Dornbusch elegantly puts it:

Proteins are nitrogen based substances. In grain, they come in the form of dozens of molecular structures from the simplest amino acids to very large molecular chains. The largest of the proteins, if not converted by proteolytic enzymes to smaller-chain proteins, are the most susceptible to coagulation and flaking in the kettle. Because helles is a full-bodied beer, it is important to compose a mash schedule that yields maximum proteolytic conversion The Helles brewer wants plenty of proteins to show up in the *beer*, not just in the *trub*. (my bolding) 


Says it all


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (11/8/11)

Nick, how are you getting up to mash temp, then?

Goomba


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## therook (11/8/11)

I have never done a protein rest and have found that APA's with such a high amount of Hops has always given me excellent head and lacing

That picture makes me thirsty

Rook


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## goomboogo (11/8/11)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Nick, how are you getting up to mash temp, then?
> 
> Goomba



He probably adds boiling water.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (11/8/11)

goomboogo said:


> He probably adds boiling water.



So he's not putting in the entire strike water, in the initial go.

I probably should have been more specific in the question .

Interesting to find out.

I had a couple of APA's where I didn't get great head, but I'm finding my current APA and Lager both have great head.

Which reminds me, photograph said APA and put on recipe DB tonight. If I'm not too content with the drink, that is.

Goomba


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## Nick JD (11/8/11)

Yeah, dough in 3.5kg with 9L of 58C (IIRC), leave for 15 minutes and then keep adding 2L of boiling water batches from the tea kettle until it hits mash temp. I think I need to add about 5 more liters to hit the mid 60s.

My tea kettle boils 2L in a minute or two. Another handy thing is doughing in to water in the 50s means you don't get doughballs. Dunno why - below barleyz gelatinisation temp or someshit probably.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (11/8/11)

Nick JD said:


> Yeah, dough in 3.5kg with 9L of 58C (IIRC), leave for 15 minutes and then keep adding 2L of boiling water batches from the tea kettle until it hits mash temp. I think I need to add about 5 more liters to hit the mid 60s.
> 
> My tea kettle boils 2L in a minute or two. Another handy thing is doughing in to water in the 50s means you don't get doughballs. Dunno why - below barleyz gelatinisation temp or someshit probably.



Sweet. Pasta pot holds 9L and takes about the said 15 minutes to boil, so it'll be nice and easy.

Might have a crack at this when I do my Roggenwei.

Goomba


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## Nick JD (11/8/11)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Sweet. Pasta pot holds 9L and takes about the said 15 minutes to boil, so it'll be nice and easy.
> 
> Might have a crack at this when I do my Roggenwei.
> 
> Goomba



Why not do a thick 15 minute, 43C ferullic acid rest first, then top up with some boiling water to a protein rest? Lots of clove precursors.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (11/8/11)

Nick JD said:


> Why not do a thick 15 minute, 43C ferullic acid rest first, then top up with some boiling water to a protein rest? Lots of clove precursors.



I'll have to sit down and do the calcs, I reckon I'll run out of room in the pots otherwise. But a good idea - especially given I'm using WB-06, and probably need a little help in that regard.

Thanks for the idea.

Plus it might be a good way to see how much one can really do on the stovetop - I'm continually trying to see how much we can actually do before I need an urn (rather than want one), and whether BIABSM can produce beers that were only do-able with 3V.

Goomba


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## Nick JD (11/8/11)

I have a feeling you'd get too much cloves with WB06 and an acid rest. That stuff is clove city.


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## Florian (11/8/11)

Nick JD said:


> What do the folk out there think of the protein rest?




I do and always have done protein rests on every single one of my beers, so really i have no comparison how they would turn out without the rest. For the last 15 or twenty beers I had 10 minutes at 52. I can't exactly remember why I settled for 52 but I know that there was a good reason for it at the time. Time to do some reading again...


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## yardy (11/8/11)

Nick JD said:


> Recently, I've been getting into 15 minute protein rests at 53C. I never could be bothered before, *but since my hot tap temperature is a perfect strike temperature* to get a protein rest of 52C, I've been doing them.
> 
> Here's a Cascade Golden with 15% sucrose in it, mashed at 66C. Leaves so much lacing on the glass the next day the glass needs scrubbing.
> 
> I'm converted, as it actually makes my mashing easier not having to apply heat to the pot at all. What do the folk out there think of the protein rest?



so you're mashing with water straight from the HWS ?

nice pic btw.


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## Bribie G (11/8/11)

When I'm not doing style-nazi brews with RO water I have always used the good old Rheem, it's lined with ceramic glass and is basically just a big urn. Gets flushed regularly. With your lovely soft water in BBerg I reckon you could probably do a Bopils straight out of your hot water taps.


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## bigandhairy (11/8/11)

Hi Bribie,

do you do the rest at full volume at 52deg, then raise the bag with the element on to get to mash temp. Or another method?

cheers
bah


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## Bribie G (11/8/11)

Raise, heat and drop'n'pump. With a skyhook and pulley it's no big deal to do a step mash when BIABing in an urn.


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## bigandhairy (11/8/11)

Bribie G said:


> Raise, heat and drop'n'pump. With a skyhook and pulley it's no big deal to do a step mash when BIABing in an urn.


Cool thanks. Do you overshoot the temp to allow for any heat exchange between the bag and the wort, ie heat to 68deg so when the bag is lowered the grain which is at 52deg then becomes say 66deg. Also if mashing for an hour do you start the hour at the beginning of the rest or not until final mash temp has been reached? Sorry for the barrage of questions :icon_cheers: 

cheers
bah


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## gibbocore (11/8/11)

I always do a rest at 55, then a quick decoction, rest the decoction at 66 for 10 mins then raise to boiling, then dump back into the mash. Adds about 20 mins to by mash and ensures a ramp up to my mash temp rather than dumping 80 degree water on my grains, had probs with attenuation and haven't had one since.


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## Bribie G (11/8/11)

Start at the hour. The temperature range is a bit suck and see, a couple of hoists and pumps doesn't do any harm anyway and gives me something to do while the temperature ramps up. I've been threatening for ages to do a temperature rise per minute chart for a 40L 2400W urn. Really I should get my lazy A into G and do that as it's handy for the likes of Hochkurz and mashout steps as well.


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (11/8/11)

Nick JD said:


> Another handy thing is doughing in to water in the 50s means you don't get doughballs. Dunno why - below barleyz gelatinisation temp or someshit probably.



this makes alot of sense.
try the same experiment with a tablespoon of flour and mix it with warm/hot water. the flour just balls up and you get lumps of dry flour. do it again with cold (fridge) water. mixes perfectly every time, no lumps.

:icon_cheers:


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## Fourstar (11/8/11)

any benifit of wort/beer clarity you have noticed nick?


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## Nick JD (11/8/11)

yardy said:


> so you're mashing with water straight from the HWS ?



 I pulled the cover off and set it to 58C at the tap. HWS protein rest strike just happens to be the upper limit of bad bugs and the lower limit of tightarseness.

As most here will have already realised; my arse is a diamond mine.


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## Nick JD (12/8/11)

Fourstar said:


> any benifit of wort/beer clarity you have noticed nick?



My "first runnings" out of the bag are always reasonably clear (not mash tun clear though), but bag dunk sparging certainly squeezes out the muck. I'll keep an eye out next time to see if it's clearer - but it's something I've pretty much ignored, the whole wort clarity thing because when I "flameout" the whirlfloc has cleared the whole pot so much I can almost see the floculant falling all the way to the bottom of the pot.


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## MattC (12/8/11)

Well this thread is interesting. I was of the opinion that a protein rest was not required for modified malts and if one was performed you ran the risk of reducing head retention. Is the general consenses from you guys that a proetin rest with modified malts should be kept to 15 min or under? I was doing a protein rest at about 52 however due to the way I do things in the brewery, I had to leave for about 25 min. I feel this was reducing my head retention and I stopped and reverted to single infusions at 65-69C, head retention improved.

Has anyone here brewed two identical brews, one with a protein rest and one without and compared the two? What are your thoughts?

Also what difference would one expect from rest of 52C compared to 55C?

Cheers


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## Thirsty Boy (12/8/11)

52 is about the lower limit you'd want to play at before you did start to get into territory where you could start knocking out head retention protiens.

With well modified malts you never "need" a P rest - but that doesn't mean they do nothing if you do one. Like Nick, i find a distinct improvement in my head formation, retention and lacing when i do a short P rest compared to the same recipe without the P rest. I do mine at 54-56 for only 5 minutes then hit the button to ramp.

But i have to say - for me (and nick notes this too) its as much about process as it is about anything else. I aim to go in at 55, which gives me a bit of time and leeway to settle in the circulation of my RIMS before i ramp to my first Sacch rest. If i dont hit dough in temp spot on, thats OK a bit lower or a bit higher is still in the right zone ad the temp is low enough so that nothing is happening at any great speed anyway.

I do it more or less every brew.

TB


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## Filby (12/8/11)

From what I understood, most base malts here in australia (and around the world) are fully modified so dont benefit from doing a protein rest. I thought I read somewhere that if you do do a protein rest with fully modified malts you will actually end up with a beer with no to very little body. 


Fil


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## AndrewQLD (12/8/11)

Filby said:


> From what I understood, most base malts here in australia (and around the world) are fully modified so dont benefit from doing a protein rest. I thought I read somewhere that if you do do a protein rest with fully modified malts you will actually end up with a beer with no to very little body.
> 
> 
> Fil



You may well have read that, but this is after all the internet, and you can't always believe what you read.
As ThirstyBoy pointed out you can get benefits from a P rest but are asking for trouble if you do a low 50 one, it's really all a question of degrees, pun intended.

Andrew


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## chunckious (12/8/11)

AndrewQLD said:


> You may well have read that, but this is after all the internet, and you can't always believe what you read.
> As ThirstyBoy pointed out you can get benefits from a P rest but are asking for trouble if you do a low 50 one, it's really all a question of degrees, pun intended.
> 
> Andrew



I could be wrong, but I thought that Ross from CB made a comment like this to one of the users.


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## Nick JD (12/8/11)

From what I can gather, all roads seem to lead back to John Palmer's description of the impacts of protein rests on well modified malts being negative. 

I fear this may be a classic case of _if everyone says it it must be true_ yet there's only one source - a very popular source. 

"In fact, using a protein rest on fully modified malts tends to remove most of the body of a beer, leaving it thin and watery." Says Jesus Palmer, and to that I say, CODSWALLOP.


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## bigandhairy (12/8/11)

I have just mashed in my first protein rest at 54.5deg. Looking forward too seeing/tasting the results. Its an English IPA that I'd like to mash at 68deg, should i do a rest at say 60-62 or just push straight on to 68? I biab so I intend to raise the bag during temp ramps. Having said that I use a 12inch round false bottom that sits over the element in the urn, i'm pretty sure I wouldnt have melting issues but I'm too chicken to try it lol. Anyone done it without losing the grain bill out the scorched hole??

Cheers
bah


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## Pat Casey (12/8/11)

Malting and mashing are contiguous processes. A lot of what happened in the brewhouse now happens in the malthouse. Modern malts are fairly well modified and don't require a protein rest. That does not mean a brief protein rest will not have some benefits. It will depend on the time and temperature of the rest. It will also depend on the protein content of the malt and the degree of modification. For example, British ale malts have tended to have lowish protein contents and to have been fairly well modified. A protein rest would be at best pointless, more likely detrimental.

With a modern malt, a protein rest at 50 deg for 30 minutes would grind many of the proteins necessary to moutfeel and head retention down to amino acids. The beer would taste empty and not hold a head. This is what the warnings are about. A protein rest in the high 50s for ten minutes would be a quite different matter.

However, would it be worth the effort? It doesn't matter how a person brews, there is always a hierachy of reward for effort. If you want to improve your beer the best step to take is the one which gives the most reward for the least effort. How does a ten minute protein rest fit into such a hierachy? It will depend on individual equipment and procedures. If it's easy to do then there might be benefits for some malts and beer styles from a 10 minute rest in the high 50s. If it's going to be a major hassle then don't bother because modern malts don't require a protein rest. Save your efforts for something else.

There's still proteolytic activity into the low 60s, so mash regimes such as 60/70 or 62/72 will combine something of a protein rest with a sacchrification rest.

Pat
Absolute Homebrew
And on Facebook


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## yardy (12/8/11)

Bribie G said:


> When I'm not doing style-nazi brews with RO water I have always used the good old Rheem, it's lined with ceramic glass and is basically just a big urn. Gets flushed regularly. With your lovely soft water in BBerg I reckon you could probably do a Bopils straight out of your hot water taps.




no soft bundy water at Moore Park mate, Burton bore water here  

cheers


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## AndrewQLD (12/8/11)

yardy said:


> no soft bundy water at Moore Park mate, Burton bore water here
> 
> cheers



Poor Yardy is probably growing Stalactites out of his nose with that kind of water going in his brew.
Bring on the Burton Ales Yardy :super: 

Cheers
Andrew


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## CosmicBertie (12/8/11)

Im not sure if this is connected, but i've only made one lager with Weyermann Bo Pils malt, with a protein rest at approx 55C (though it might have been 52C). I did a full vol mash at that temp for 15 mins, then switched on the burner to raise it to 66C, then mashed for 75 mins. Now, this lager is the clearest brew I've done. My ales, which havent had a protein rest, have chill haze when cold, but this lager is crystal clear. So believe it may help with clearing up the finished product.


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## Bribie G (12/8/11)

Nick JD said:


> From what I can gather, all roads seem to lead back to John Palmer's description of the impacts of protein rests on well modified malts being negative.
> 
> I fear this may be a classic case of _if everyone says it it must be true_ yet there's only one source - a very popular source.
> 
> "In fact, using a protein rest on fully modified malts tends to remove most of the body of a beer, leaving it thin and watery." Says Jesus Palmer, and to that I say, CODSWALLOP.



Palmer does indeed seem to come out with some "dinosaur" opinions, for example that no chilling cannot work because the wort needs to be thermally shocked to produce the cold break. I shudder to think what his opinion of BIAB would be. 

Weyermann malts are fully modified and "modern" but it doesn't stop the Helles Breweries doing a protein rest. However a lot of German Breweries do a "Hochkurz" mash nowadays when they go straight into a sach. rest - which would possibly explain the adequate but not spectacular head you get with the likes of Oettinger, as opposed to the rich heads on Helles and other Munich beers where they still do a protein rest, AFAIK.


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## Thirsty Boy (13/8/11)

Nick JD said:


> From what I can gather, all roads seem to lead back to John Palmer's description of the impacts of protein rests on well modified malts being negative.
> 
> I fear this may be a classic case of _if everyone says it it must be true_ yet there's only one source - a very popular source.
> 
> "In fact, using a protein rest on fully modified malts tends to remove most of the body of a beer, leaving it thin and watery." Says Jesus Palmer, and to that I say, CODSWALLOP.




In JPs defence - i think he means "protein rest" as traditionally defined - which would be a reasonably lengthy rest at about 50C - i've even had people tell me that what i call a protein rest in my brewing actually isn't one, because its not the "standard" version from an old fashioned 50/60/70 decotion/step regime.

If a P rest is only a P rest when its "that" particular version, which when JP wrote his book was probably the _only_ version anyone reallly knew about... Then fair enough, i think you could spoil a beer with it. But - How to Brew is a beginners book, and we all know that brewers both home and pro like to take nuggets of wisdom they gather while they are learning their craft - and turn them into hard and fast brewing "lore". A Protien rest for a specific purpose, at a very narrow temp range, for a narrow period of time... That's advanced brewing technique and hopefully, by the time people are even concerned with that level of detail, they've already shucked off the bonds of beginner's "rules of thumb" and do things only because they already know what they want to achieve with a particular change in their brewing process.


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## mje1980 (24/9/11)

Playing around with these. Second one going now, though i hit 55 with this one ( opposed to 59 the other day ), so pretty happy. Im only doing a short 5 min p rest. I can't wait to ferment both these beers!!. I did a koelsh grist both times, though i may do one with 2565, and the other with a helles style lager yeast, 830 maybe?.


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## ashley_leask (24/9/11)

bigandhairy said:


> I have just mashed in my first protein rest at 54.5deg. Looking forward too seeing/tasting the results. Its an English IPA that I'd like to mash at 68deg, should i do a rest at say 60-62 or just push straight on to 68? I biab so I intend to raise the bag during temp ramps. Having said that I use a 12inch round false bottom that sits over the element in the urn, i'm pretty sure I wouldnt have melting issues but I'm too chicken to try it lol. Anyone done it without losing the grain bill out the scorched hole??
> 
> Cheers
> bah



I haven't done step mashes, but I dont raise the bag when I ramp up to 78C for mashout. Just keep pumping with the paint stirrer to keep the grain off the bottom. I figure convection currents from the element will lift the bag far enough off anyway. So far so good.


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## jacknohe (15/3/12)

I've read through the posts where others raise the bag for a BIAB in an Urn after the Protein rest while heating. Would there be any detriment caused to the wort (and eventually the beer) by leaving the bag of grain in the urn while heating it to the desired Sach rest temperature?

I have a collander over the element and I use a paddle to mix it around while heating.


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## manticle (15/3/12)

None that I can think of as long as the bag itself is not in direct contact with whatever you're using to heat. I don't BIAB but I do step and I use an immersion element so the grain gets ramped through all the temperature levels.

My understanding is that this is actually beneficial as you may target other sets of enzymes as you go. I believe HERMS & RIMS systems etc will ramp similarly and I'd guess the braumeister does too. I mash in an esky so people will have to forgive me if the above is incorrect re herms, rims and braumeisters/


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## Jord (15/3/12)

Pat Casey said:


> With a modern malt, a protein rest at 50 deg for 30 minutes would grind many of the proteins necessary to moutfeel and head retention down to amino acids. The beer would taste empty and not hold a head. This is what the warnings are about. A protein rest in the high 50s for ten minutes would be a quite different matter.



Following on from this statement, would Pat or any of the other chemistry minded brewers out there be able to comment on the benefit of using a short mid 50's protein rest to increase the free amino nitrogen pool in order to assist the yeast in reducing diacetyl in the finished beer? Diacetyl is an ongoing problem for me and after excluding all the usual fermentation variables to the best of my abilities, I was wondering if this might be worth a try?

Cheers

Jord


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## Hargie (15/3/12)

Jord said:


> Following on from this statement, would Pat or any of the other chemistry minded brewers out there be able to comment on the benefit of using a short mid 50's protein rest to increase the free amino nitrogen pool in order to assist the yeast in reducing diacetyl in the finished beer? Diacetyl is an ongoing problem for me and after excluding all the usual fermentation variables to the best of my abilities, I was wondering if this might be worth a try?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Jord





...Yep...short rest - up to 10 min at 52c....


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## MHB (15/3/12)

Jord said:


> Following on from this statement, would Pat or any of the other chemistry minded brewers out there be able to comment on the benefit of using a short mid 50's protein rest to increase the free amino nitrogen pool in order to assist the yeast in reducing diacetyl in the finished beer? Diacetyl is an ongoing problem for me and after excluding all the usual fermentation variables to the best of my abilities, I was wondering if this might be worth a try?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Jord


I strongly suspect that any Diacetyl issues arent going to come from or be fixed by your mashing regime.
Diacetyl is really almost exclusively the domain of yeast metabolism and excessive amounts of Diacetyl can best be addressed by taking another look at your yeast healthy and pitching rates, if you are rehydrating dry yeast I would start there (i.e. dont).
As a first step I would double whatever pitch rate you are now using and just sprinkle a quality dry yeast into the wort at or about 1g/L and see if that fixes the problem.
Mark


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## Deebo (15/3/12)

Whats the theory with not re-hydrating the dry yeast? I thought this improved the viable cell count?


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## Hargie (15/3/12)

totally respecting what Mark said but still think 52c rest is good practice in any case, as are adequate O2 levels, pitching rate and yeast viability & vitality...good fan levels ( < 160-170mg/l ) are essential to yeast health...Jord are you using adjuncts which may dilute this level ?....


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## MHB (15/3/12)

Without opening a whole new can of worms and dragging this thread further off topic.
IFF you rehydrate properly at exactly the right temperature and follow good hygienic practice it is probably beneficial; sadly this is often not the case.
By using a large pitch and not rehydrating; if you Diacetyl problem goes away it will be reasonable to assume that your rehydration or other yeast management procedures is causing problems rather than making the beer better (i.e. killing most of your yeast).
As a retailer I see this day in day out, people read here and else ware that they should rehydrate, but not how they should go about it, this results in a lot of people having problems.
My advice is to follow the manufacturers instructions on every packet of Saf yeast it says Sprinkle into wort, Danstar packaging has rehydration steps with a very precise temperature range and a drawing of a thermometer (just in case you werent sure that temperature is important), when I sell their yeasts I recommend following their instructions, precisely!
What I proposed is a diagnostic test to see if the cause of the problem is the yeast handling, not what I expect anyone to do on a brew by brew basis, but try it and see if the problem gets fixed, either way you will have a clearer picture of the cause.

As to the question of a protein rest - Yes naturally always do one.
I have even started mucking around with mashing in at ambient ~20oC ramping to 50 for 10 then up...
Mark


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## Bribie G (15/3/12)

jacknohe said:


> I've read through the posts where others raise the bag for a BIAB in an Urn after the Protein rest while heating. Would there be any detriment caused to the wort (and eventually the beer) by leaving the bag of grain in the urn while heating it to the desired Sach rest temperature?
> 
> I have a collander over the element and I use a paddle to mix it around while heating.



When doing stepped mashes with my BIAB in urn setup I always leave the bag in situ and pump with a paint stirrer whilst ramping the temperature. If you do a lot of brewing, consider investing in a secondary over-the-side immersion heater for around $100 to double the speed of the ramp-ups, not to mention bringing the wort to the boil.


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## stux (15/3/12)

Bribie G said:


> When doing stepped mashes with my BIAB in urn setup I always leave the bag in situ and pump with a paint stirrer whilst ramping the temperature. If you do a lot of brewing, consider investing in a secondary over-the-side immersion heater for around $100 to double the speed of the ramp-ups, not to mention bringing the wort to the boil.



If you don't leave the bag in-situ then you have the problem of when you put it back your mash will drop in temperature again 

Also, when I tried it in the past, I found it a pain to take temperature measurements and stir while the bag was suspended... thus a cake rack and constant agitation while heating with the bag in situ is a much better solution


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## jacknohe (15/3/12)

Stux said:


> If you don't leave the bag in-situ then you have the problem of when you put it back your mash will drop in temperature again
> 
> Also, when I tried it in the past, I found it a pain to take temperature measurements and stir while the bag was suspended... thus a cake rack and constant agitation while heating with the bag in situ is a much better solution



Yeah figured as much. Just hadn't seen it mentioned. Ok thanks guys I'll give this protein rest a go. 
Cheers


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## Nick JD (16/3/12)

Another way to step up your mash temperature is to remove a few liters of the mash, boil it, and return it to your mash.


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## Bribie G (16/3/12)

Nick JD said:


> Another way to step up your mash temperature is to remove a few liters of the mash, boil it, and return it to your mash.



Or use pumps to


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## Nick JD (16/3/12)

Bribie G said:


> Or use pumps to




I always expect Steamboat Willy to pop up in that video.


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## Xoxon (17/3/12)

If I add some oats to an AG porter brew for a smoother chewier mouth feel, does a protein rest help achieve this from the oats?


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## Thirsty Boy (26/5/12)

Hargie said:


> Jord are you using adjuncts which may dilute this level ?....



This - if you are making all malt, or even mostly malt worts - the chances that your FAN levels are low enough to be the cause of your diacetyl problems is pretty low.

And i hate to be all mega brewer and non natural about it - but even if low FAN is your problem, a 1/4 tspn of yeast nutrient is a shitload easier than adding a mash rest and will probably work better anyway.


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## hoppy2B (11/9/12)

Protien = Flavour


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