# Help getting that crisp Lager taste



## mrre (30/5/18)

Hi All,

I have been brewing on the Grainfather for 12 months now and produced some pretty reasonable beers.

One of my favourite styles are Lagers, I have brewed several but none of them have had that real "crisp" taste and mouth feel that commercially produced lagers have. I believe my brewing methods are sound. I hit my numbers on my brews and I have a tempreature controlled fermentation chamber to take care of fermentation temps. 

The only thing I haven't done to this point is water mineral adjustments so I am kind of pin pointing this as one possible source of my issues. I do use campden tablets and have used PH 5.2 stabiliser before in my water. I run my water through a dual stage water filter (Bunnings type) 

My question is if I want to start adjusting minerals based on the water report from my area am I better off by passing the water filter so my water is as close as possible to the report as I am guessing the water filter will be changing the mineral profile of the tap water fairly dramatically?

Would I be better off getting an RO water system and building my mineral profile up from scratch?

Any other ideas on how I can get that crisp taste would be greatly appreciated.


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## Let's Brew Beer (30/5/18)

Wouldn't mind finding that out myself, I've just put down a 17L batch lager. Noticed some of my brews lack that 'crisp' taste. I have a local water report but haven't bothered to add any ions except a campden tablet. I do add at least 3% acid malt with almost every brew i do now, would be interesting to know if thats supposed to make any difference.


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## brewgasm (30/5/18)

mrre said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I have been brewing on the Grainfather for 12 months now and produced some pretty reasonable beers.
> 
> ...


Have you tried dry enzymes?


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## MHB (30/5/18)

Unless your water is high in Carbonate, it isn't really going to matter, just make you have enough Calcium available (50-100ppm is regarded as a minimum - I add about 100ppm to my local waters 35ish ppm). Much more important to get your pH right and ideally a bit lower than for ale say 5.1-5.3pH
You need to be using a good Pilsner Malt, I would choose a German malt, for me Weyermann Premium Pilsner.
Absolutely do step mash, you want to spend some time (say 30miinutes) at low (63-65oC) Beta Amylase promoting temperatures, then up to Alpha Amylase peak (69-74oC), then mash out around 80oC. If you cant step, give it an hour around 63-4oC.
Better to mash in thinner (more water) thing 4-5:1 or even all your water in at the start (no sparge) don't over sparge.
Avoid overdoing gravity, bitterness and especially late hops. For learning Lager making I would start with what the Germans call Standard Beer 12oP (1.048) and 24IBU. Ideally start with one addition of a good German hop like Hallertau Mittlefruh, Hersbrucker, Tettnang… or Czech Saaz. Look up Budweiser (the Czech one), one malt one hop, one addition, the worlds best SMASH
Pitch Cold, Pitch Lots. Yeast management really is the key to making good Lager/Pilsner. If you pitch a truly huge amount of yeast at 8-10oC let it rise to 12oC and if necessary ramp up to around 20oC at the end to speed up Diacetyl (and other VDK's) removal as well as finishing off any sugars.

I know we all poke a bit of fun at mega brewers, but this is what they are doing day after day, its technically very demanding and leaves nowhere to hide mistakes.
Practice makes perfect as they say, but really yeast management is king.
Mark


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## zoigl (31/5/18)

Mark, I enjoyed reading this, do you have any tips to share for pale ales?


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## hoppy2B (31/5/18)

Add some gypsum to reach your desired ph. That should help sharpen the flavour a bit.


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## MHB (31/5/18)

zoigl said:


> Mark, I enjoyed reading this, do you have any tips to share for pale ales?


Thanks, What I posted above is where I would head from ordinary PA brewing practice to get a crisp clean lager style.
Going to depend on exactly what you mean by Pale Ale to. Coopers Pale Ale is an excellent example of a basic PA, it isn't too far from the 12/24 numbers mentioned for a basic lager. As the hops increase (either/both bitterness and taste) you need more body/maltenes to balance the beer, that's where it starts to get more complicated, you need to start looking at ingredients and processes that increase the fullness of the beer, think Munich, melanoidin imperial aromatic malt... warmer mashed to encourage more dextrins... Yeast like US-05 that wont eat all the sugar, compared to S-04 that will eat most everything giving a dryer (crisper) beer.
Really just good basic brewing practice, and the right amount of healthy yeast.



hoppy2B said:


> Add some gypsum to reach your desired ph. That should help sharpen the flavour a bit.


Even in distilled water (what the pH for a malt is reported from) you cant add enough Calcium Sulphate to get the pH down - well under 5.6pH is pretty much the limit. You need to be able to measure pH and you will need to be adding acid or as above acidulated malt (Acidulated lowers the pH by 0.1pH/1% of grist so to get from 5.6 to 5.2 you need to be adding 4%).
Sulphate is widely said to make the beer hoper, in truth it makes the hops more pronounced and harsher.
Go too far with the sulphate and your beer will start to acquire all the subtilty and grace of a 2" bastard file being run across your tongue!
Mark


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## hoppy2B (31/5/18)

I added 2 tablespoons of gypsum to a 45 litre batch and fermented with 1469, and it is not harsh in the least bit. I boiled the gypsum before mashing. The sulphur in it dissolves leaving behind the calcium, which in this case consisted of lots of tiny shells. You probably get a little calcium dissolving but not much. The mash also had 250 grams of acidulated malt in it.

I would describe it as very crisp, and not harsh at all. It was bottled on the 17-11-2016. I actually stuck one in the fridge about an hour ago. I am going to try and culture the yeast from it. It is only 3.7% abv in the bottle or slightly less, so I am hoping the low ph has preserved the yeast's viability.


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## Rocker1986 (31/5/18)

Didn't think there was any sulphur in gypsum... but anyway;

Most of the lagers I brew are Czech pilsners, and I do a lot of what Mark mentioned in the post above. It results in beautifully balanced and reasonably crisp beers. One difference in mine is the water is very low in all minerals; I use all distilled water and then add back small amounts with various mineral salts. All the amounts are way lower than recommended but it doesn't seem to affect anything adversely. This is the only beer style I do use such soft water though; I've tried the recipe with water with more minerals in it and it wasn't as nice to be honest.
Malts are Weyermann Boh Pilsner (always), and a bit of Melanoidin and acidulated as well. The mash is done at 63C for about 35-40 minutes, raised to 72C for 30 minutes before mashing out at 78C. 90+ minute boil. Saaz at FWH, 80 minutes, 15 minutes and flameout (surprisingly it works well) to about 43-45 IBUs in high 1.040s OG wort. At the moment I don't have much option to get the wort down to ferment temp prior to pitching yeast but I try to get it as cool as I can. Yeast is grown in a starter to approx. the required amount or a bit more than that. Ferment starts at 10C and is raised to 18C after 6-7 days. Left up there for a week then crashed to 0C for 1.5-2 weeks. Improves more with further cold storage.

As for sulphates causing harsh hoppiness, I think that might be the issue with my pale ales lately. I'll be reducing the addition next batch to see if it helps smooth things out more.


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## MHB (31/5/18)

The original Pilsner (Urquell) is brewed with very soft water and is a lot hopier and bitter than it tastes, what we call perceived bitterness. People forget that a nice round full bodied Stout might be 40-60IBU's but just glides down...
If you have RoMo water you will need more hops than with a more minerally water.
Sounds like you have your Lager nailed! If the Pale Ales are a bit rough, then yes I would wind back the Sulphate, possibly trade some for CaCl2, to keep the Ca content up but the Cl has a mellowing affect on the taste.
I have ben playing around with Calcium Lactate for a couple of years, add as much Sulphate and/or Chloride and top up the Calcium with the lactate - works well for me.
More than one way to get to where you want to go. Glad its working for you.
Mark


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## hoppy2B (31/5/18)

Rocker1986 said:


> Didn't think there was any sulphur in gypsum... but anyway;



If you look on a packet of gypsum which you will find at Bunnings for about, I think it's $11 or $12 per 15 kg, you will see the number 18 next to some other numbers. In this case it is 0-0-0-18. The first 3 numbers stand for NPK. The fourth number normally stands for sulphur but can also stand for other things. The 18 in this instance is Sulphur. 

The product is from Richgro. It is a natural mined gypsum. Don't use chemical gypsum as it contains heavy metals. Getting it at Bunnings in a huge bag is much cheaper than buying it at a home brew store. 

It is commonly stated that adding gypsum to soil will not alter its ph, but knowledgeable persons are also aware that the sulphur dissolves long before the calcium.


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## yankinoz (31/5/18)

It is commonly stated that adding gypsum to soil will not alter its ph, but knowledgeable persons are also aware that the sulphur dissolves long before the calcium.[/QUOTE] 

Knowledgeable people?

Gypsum is mostly calcium sulphate, CaSO4, where the S stands for sulphur, but combined with oxygen. It is sparingly soluble and in solution there is partial dissolution into calcium ions and sulphate ions. Never is elemental sulphur present.

In the amounts used in brewing you're unlikely to get much lead or arsenic direct from the mine and grinder, but I use food grade stuff from a brew supply shop and would advise the same.


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## MHB (31/5/18)

Knowledgeable people?
I think your right to question the assertion. hoppy2B, you should learn some basic facts before posting, unless that is you are really trying to prove you're a complete idiot!

_If you look on a packet of gypsum which you will find at Bunnings for about, I think it's $11 or $12 per 15 kg, you will see the number 18 next to some other numbers. In this case it is 0-0-0-18. The first 3 numbers stand for NPK. The fourth number normally stands for sulphur but can also stand for other things. The 18 in this instance is Sulphur._​Although this isn't generally a gardening forum, this bit is actually right. Irrelevant but right. About as relevant as saying that Carbon and Nitrogen are toxic because they go together to make Cyanide (CN), in brewing its the Sulphate Ion that's important. 
_The product is from Richgro. It is a natural mined gypsum. Don't use chemical gypsum as it contains heavy metals. Getting it at Bunnings in a huge bag is much cheaper than buying it at a home brew store._​Actually 100% arse about, the natural unrefined product may contain heavy metals, we refine it and test it to make sure its safe before we can call it Food Grade or safe to eat.
_It is commonly stated that adding gypsum to soil will not alter its ph, but knowledgeable persons are also aware that the sulphur dissolves long before the calcium._​Again irrelevant, not talking about gardening, but to dissolve the Calcium Sulphate disassociates into Calcium Ions and Sulphate Ions (Ca,2+ and SO4,2-) you cant extract the Sulphur (well not under brewing conditions) you cant get one ion without getting the other, so not only can you not extract the Sulphur before the Calcium you cant extract the Sulphate.

Dude put it back in the rack for a while.
Mark


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## GalBrew (31/5/18)

Wow this thread took an interesting turn. I for one would NOT be putting any ingredient in my beer that I bought from Bunnings. Also two tablespoons in 45L is a veritable shit ton of gypsum, especially in a 3.7% beer.


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## Dazza88 (1/6/18)

Rocker1986 said:


> Didn't think there was any sulphur in gypsum... but anyway;
> 
> Most of the lagers I brew are Czech pilsners, and I do a lot of what Mark mentioned in the post above. It results in beautifully balanced and reasonably crisp beers. One difference in mine is the water is very low in all minerals; I use all distilled water and then add back small amounts with various mineral salts. All the amounts are way lower than recommended but it doesn't seem to affect anything adversely. This is the only beer style I do use such soft water though; I've tried the recipe with water with more minerals in it and it wasn't as nice to be honest.
> Malts are Weyermann Boh Pilsner (always), and a bit of Melanoidin and acidulated as well. The mash is done at 63C for about 35-40 minutes, raised to 72C for 30 minutes before mashing out at 78C. 90+ minute boil. Saaz at FWH, 80 minutes, 15 minutes and flameout (surprisingly it works well) to about 43-45 IBUs in high 1.040s OG wort. At the moment I don't have much option to get the wort down to ferment temp prior to pitching yeast but I try to get it as cool as I can. Yeast is grown in a starter to approx. the required amount or a bit more than that. Ferment starts at 10C and is raised to 18C after 6-7 days. Left up there for a week then crashed to 0C for 1.5-2 weeks. Improves more with further cold storage.
> ...



Hey what percentage of melanoidin and acidulated do you add? Next beer is a boh pils. last time only added 7% Melanoidin.


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## Rocker1986 (1/6/18)

Thanks Mark, the soft water came about from researching Urquell's brewing methods and stuff when I was formulating my own recipe. I didn't want a clone of that beer, but certainly something in the same ballpark and I have achieved that on numerous batches since. A bit of tweaking here and there has improved it too. The hop addition timings came from them as well although I tweaked them a bit to suit my system better. I'll definitely try less sulphate additions in the pale ales though, my normal water is higher in chloride so even just enough to balance the two should be better than favouring the sulphate. I have all 6 of the usual brewing salts on hand so I'll come up with something that works. The experimenting is fun and useful for learning even if sometimes the beers aren't as nice as they could be.



Dazza88 said:


> Hey what percentage of melanoidin and acidulated do you add? Next beer is a boh pils. last time only added 7% Melanoidin.


Hey Dazza, I use 3.5% melanoidin and 2.3% acidulated. The rest is made up of Boh Pils malt and a pinch of black malt to darken the beer to a more golden colour. They always turn out really nice.


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## mrre (4/6/18)

Thanks for all the replies guys. Has given me an idea of where to head next.

Cheers!


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## david pridham (15/10/18)

mrre said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I have been brewing on the Grainfather for 12 months now and produced some pretty reasonable beers.
> 
> ...





mrre said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I have been brewing on the Grainfather for 12 months now and produced some pretty reasonable beers.
> 
> ...


Hi MRRE,
may I suggest NOT using the 5.2 Stabilizer, I have also used and I believe it may stay in your beer till the end and effectively try to buffer the PH of your beer upwards thus losing the normal acid bite.
Cheers
Dave


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## Redreuben (1/11/18)

Hint. 
What does the word lager mean ?


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## Droopy Brew (2/11/18)

I reckon if you are looking for a "crisper" beer like the commercials then there are a couple of ways that will have a bigger impact than ******* about with water. Not saying it doesnt play its part, I always adjust water, but going down the path of getting an RO and creating a perfect water profile still probably wont get you what I suspect you are chasing.
What you are probably finding is that your lagers have good body and malt presence as opposed to many commercial lagers that tend to be watery with SFA malt back bone aka 'crisp'. A few very easy ways to get this are:
1) Substitute 10% of your grain for dextrose. This will thin the beer and make if more fermentable and reduce some of the malt sweetness.
2) Mash very low- about 63C. This will thin the body but you will still have malt sweetness.
3) add an enzyme which will make some of the unfermentable sugars (ie body creating sugars) available to the yeasties to eat.
4) do all of the above for a truely bland, crisp beer.


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## TheSumOfAllBeers (3/11/18)

Some tips before you start doing dextrose additions: 
- get your pH right
- consider your yeast selection, lagers strains are usually more attenuative, but not all
- the hops count, don’t go all macro on the IBU
- don’t scrimp on the malt, get the best pilsner malt available to you
- really get the clarity you want, even low counts of yeast or other protein will act to blunt the crispness 

You can get that crisp taste with all malt, and even high finishing gravity lagers. German & Czech breweries have been doing this for a while now.

The obvious examples I can think of are Krombacher and pilsner urquell.


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## Rocker1986 (3/11/18)

Yup, my pilsner is based on Urquell, it may not be as crisp as macro swill but it's still a crisp beer. Especially after fining it and allowing the keg to lager for a month and a half in addition to the time it gets in the fermenter before kegging. Beautifully clear, flavorful and crisp. It is an all malt recipe as well.


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## keine_ahnung (3/11/18)

Hi mrre,


I like your question 

I can maybe lend some assistance. This is currently exactly my area.

As a german trained (Ausbildung) brewer who has been working full-time a bavarian brewery for years and currently studying the Braumeister in Munich, I have some handy inside info on this style of beer. It's the bread and butter of bavarian breweries, and they (literally) wrote the book on brewing it.


Mark, as always, has offered some very important points.

I agree 100% with Mark that your water composition, although fairly important, is secondary to a few other vital factors.


Like he said, pitch-rate is fairly important (although not masssssively important if your malt, mash and other fermentation conditions are all good).

Fermentation temperature is the absolute most important factor when brewing bavarian lagers.


To repeat Mark's advice, fermenting at 8-10°C is a very good start. You could even ferment a bit cooler.

Then, as redreuben so beautifully put it: lager lager lager lager lager!!!!!!

If fermentation temp is the most important thing, lagering is definitely the 2nd most important. Especially getting it off the old yeast (racking). Lager it for at least 4 weeks. If you can, longer

The diacetyl "rest" up to 20°C is an option. But if your fermentation is right, it shouldn't really be necessary. If I were going to do it, I'd do it by turning off your cooling when you're about 75% of the way through your fermentation. I've heard this tactic mentioned from a few brewers, as it does have logic. However, as far as I know, it's not really common procedure in breweries here.


Now on to the mash.

Also critical of course. I'd need to see your malt analysis to really be able to optimise the mash program, but Mark's schedule is a very good starting point.

The typical bavarian mash schedule is sub 60 mash-in, 62-63, 70-73, 78-mashout decoction.

Depending on what the barley harvest was like last year ->> how the malt is this year (protein content!!!!!!!), one could consider a protein rest around between 50-60deg. As a rough description: 50-55deg will increase your Free Aminoacid content (yeast nutrient!!!!!) and 55-60 will increase your content of med.-high molecular *soluble* Protein (mM and hM-Protein) -->> head retention.

However, in general, malts are so well modified these days that that is *probably* not necessary. Like I said, if you have a malt analysis there, I could take a look and tell you what should be done.


One can always just mash in at around 52 than start heating straight away up to 62deg at 1deg/minute. It's also a bit kinder on the enzymes than hitting them with 62deg when they've been chilling out at say 15 degrees for weeks/months.


Regarding water:

pH (in the mash and at the end of the boil) is fairly important, but not near as vital as the above points. (In germany it's illegal to add raw minerals or lactic acid during the brewing process. There are numerous ways around this, but they're often too expensive or time consuming for a lot of smaller breweries.....and they still brew "crisp" bavarian lager).

With a pH of 5.5-5.6 you're right on target for the beta- and alpha-amylasen.


Regarding malt-bill:

If you really want to get it “crisp” I’d completely do away with specialty malts. We used to add a little bit of carahell, but only like 3%.


Another thing to be careful of in terms of keeping your end product “crisp”, is DMS . (Cabbage, cooked vegetable smell/flavour). This is exacerbated when the wort is between 80-100 (i.e. Whirlpool)

On top of all these things, one can definitely do some good fine tuning with water chemistry, but as already mentioned here, all the other brewing steps have to be right.


Good luck and keep us posted on your progress with the next batches!


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## keine_ahnung (3/11/18)

Oh and just quickly regarding Pilsner Urquell. it's actually got a pretty high diacetyl content (typical of Bohemian Pilsners). So if you're after that kind of taste, you could happily bump up the above^^ fermentation temps a few degrees.
Or shorten the lager times


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## MHB (3/11/18)

I'm a huge fan of CarraHell in these types of beers (not necessary if you want to decoct them like Urquell), <5% not so much for Colour as for Hue. CarraHell gives a glorious Golden hue, no matter how good a beer tastes I personally think they should never look like a urine sample, CarraHell moves the beer from Yellow > Gold, perhaps the biggest mistake a brew designer can make!
Mark


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## Meddo (10/11/18)

Hey @keine_ahnung, thanks a lot for that info, it's greatly appreciated. Do you mind elaborating a little bit on your preferred lagering approach please? Specifically, but please feel free to chip in with any other info:

What sort of time frame would you typically be holding the beer at that 8-10 degrees?
Do you recommend racking off the yeast before or after chilling to lager temperature?
What is your preferred lager temperature, and how long do you take to chill to that temperature from ferment temperature (ie crash chill or gradual)?
There's obviously many answers to these questions out there but it would be great to hear your views as a trained German brewer, please, if you're happy to share.

Also, do you feel that a decoction step mash (as opposed to a step mash achieved by direct-heat recirculation like a Braumeister single vessel system) is an essential component of getting that German lager character? Or is it just the temperature rests themselves that count?


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## peterlonz (11/11/18)

What enzyme is Droopy Brew advocating?
Maybe he can post his recipe for a crisp but tasty lager.
Better still an Urquel clone, particularly if it is doable without months of low temp fermentation>


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## Rocker1986 (11/11/18)

Mine's not an Urquell clone although is based on it, I can post it when I'm on the computer again if you'd like. However I don't think there are any shortcuts to get around a reasonable lagering period. All of mine have been much better beers after at least 6 weeks lagering in the keg after having a short time lagering in the fermenter. 

I have changed my process recently as well. Previously I would just drop the temp to 0 and let it sit there for a couple of weeks until kegging. Now I do a slow ramp down to 3 degrees over a few days and leave it there for another 10-11 days. I've found this to result in a cleaner lager than the old method.


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## Redreuben (11/11/18)

I’d disagree on Urquell being a crisp lager, it’s a Pilsner and much fuller bodied with hops to balance, to me lager is much more um, delicate. 
As for enzymes what do you want to make Hahn extra dry ? 
**** that. 
Pilsner malt, some Cara and if you want to dry it off a bit use some flaked barley.


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## Ben Davies (11/11/18)

My 2c favour sulphate in water calculator for crisp dry beer.


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## Rocker1986 (11/11/18)

Redreuben said:


> I’d disagree on Urquell being a crisp lager, it’s a Pilsner and much fuller bodied with hops to balance, to me lager is much more um, delicate.


Pilsners are lagers but I would agree they aren't crisp like some other lager styles are. Still crisper than most ales to my palate though.


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## keine_ahnung (12/11/18)

Hey @Meddo,



> Do you mind elaborating a little bit on your preferred lagering approach please? Specifically, but please feel free to chip in with any other info:
> 
> What sort of time frame would you typically be holding the beer at that 8-10 degrees?
> Do you recommend racking off the yeast before or after chilling to lager temperature?
> What is your preferred lager temperature, and how long do you take to chill to that temperature from ferment temperature (ie crash chill or gradual)?



1 - Hold this fermentation temperature until fermentation is complete.
2 - once your fementation is finished, cool it down, get it off the yeast, transition to lagering. Getting the beer off the majority of the yeast as soon as fermentation is complete is very important. (Otherwise Autolysis of the yeast = unpleasant harsh bitterness, decreased head retention, increased pH, reduced colloidal stability of the beer)
3 - 0-3°C. More importantly, keep the temperature as stable as possible.

To reiterate: lagertime = as long as you can. Absolute critical minimum 2 weeks. Better: 4-8 weeks. Seriously, that is such a critical factor with a good lager. It is the entire meaning of the word in German. "Lager" = to store. If you're not letting your lager lager, it's not a lager.
The only reason breweries here don't lager their Pils und Helles-Beers for 12 weeks is due to capacity. If they could, they happily would. The end beer is so rounded and balanced that you could cry. The difference between a lager beer with 2 weeks of lagering vs 6 weeks is night and day.

The only down side on a hobby scale, is oxidation levels.
without knowing what your equipment is, it's hard to advise. But assuming you don't have the facilities to CO2 wash your racking-keg before racking, one option would be to cool your beer down to say 4-5°C when the fermentation is 90% through then rack it it.
This should give you reasonable compomise between dropping enough of the old yeast out before racking, and still being warm enough to ferment out a bit in the racking keg and expell the remaning air in thetop part of the racking keg. Just an idea


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## keine_ahnung (12/11/18)

Rocker1986 said:


> Pilsners are lagers but I would agree they aren't crisp like some other lager styles are. Still crisper than most ales to my palate though.


Well said Rocker.
By definition, "Pilsners" are all lagers. However within Pilsners (aka "Pils") there are several substyles. A bohemian pils (e.g. Pilsner Urquell, stemming from the city Pilsn in Czech - 1.5 hours from the brewery I've been at the last few years) is different to a bavarian pils, which is different to a north german pils.

Bohemian pils are characterised by relatively high diacetyl levels. Typically significantly higher than that of bavarian and german pils. I personally find it hard to call Urquell "crisp". In terms of it's malt body and hopping, it's quite smooth, fine and delicate, however the diacetyl and other ferm. byproducts give it a rather full, unripe mouth feel and flavour COMPARED to lots of bavarian pils.
^that how my palate perceives them anyhow. But after years of drinking very fine bavarian lagers every day at work, one becomes a bit biased!


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## keine_ahnung (12/11/18)

Oh, I keep forgetting to mention one extremely important factor.
All these professionally produced lager beers that we're comparing to are filtered. That has a MASSIVE effect on the flavour.
Exaclty the same with all these beers I've been talking about from our brewery. When they're well lagered, I love them after the filtration. However, regardless of lager time, I'm not a fan of Pils and Helles unfiltered. Festbier, Dunkles, Kellerbier, Bock....that's a different story.
But that's also a taste thing. Some brewers like Pils and Hells unfiltered too. But in general, there's a reason why they're usually filtered...
So don't ever be discouraged if you can't completely replicate such beers on a homebrew level!


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## keine_ahnung (12/11/18)

Meddo said:


> Hey @keine_ahnung
> Also, do you feel that a decoction step mash (as opposed to a step mash achieved by direct-heat recirculation like a Braumeister single vessel system) is an essential component of getting that German lager character? Or is it just the temperature rests themselves that count?



Hmm...this is a very good question. I ran a trial in the brewery about a year ago where we brewed the exact same Helles, but infusion istead of our standard decoction program. When we first filled it, I thought I liked it. HOwever after taking a case home after work, and trying to drink a full beer, I noticed it was half as nice as our usual. If that. it's hard to put ALL of that down to the infusion process, as there were other factors as well. Being a trial, we only fermented 20hl in our trial tank. It was also a 1-tank fermentation-lager program, which is atypical for us. It was lagered for something like 14 weeks, which gave it a really soft touch, however it lacked that slightly bready dry but balanced and pleasantly delicate malt body that our beer usually has.

If you have the time, I would definitely try it. See if you notice a difference 
One of the main benefits is that you physically break down the starch moleclules, which aids in decreasing your FG. (<Edit! OG was a typo before!)
To be honest, I'd say the biggest gains to be made with decoction are maltier darker beers like Festbier, Dunkles, Märzen, Maibock etc. The darker malts in these beers require a bit more man-handling in the mash due to the higher protein content of the barley that is required in the malting process to makes these malts


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## Rocker1986 (12/11/18)

This information is really interesting stuff. I don't do it exactly the same at home because I don't really have the means to but I'm still happy with the outcomes at the moment. Decoctions would be a really big pain in the arse to try on my current BIAB brewing system. I use melanoidin malt as part of the grain bill but I know it's not gonna be quite the same as doing a real decoction. I do use a sort of step mash, starting at 63, then heating to 72 before mashing out at 78. 

One similarity other than the low fermentation temp (I usually ferment at 10C) is that I do at least try to lager them for a longer period of time as they are better for it. I've done some unintentional but useful experimenting in the past drinking them too soon; it was interesting to note how the beer improved over time stored cold. I'll be improving my set up next year so I will at least be able to lager every batch for a suitable length of time.


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## keine_ahnung (12/11/18)

Rocker1986 said:


> This information is really interesting stuff. I don't do it exactly the same at home because I don't really have the means to but I'm still happy with the outcomes at the moment. Decoctions would be a really big pain in the arse to try on my current BIAB brewing system. I use melanoidin malt as part of the grain bill but I know it's not gonna be quite the same as doing a real decoction. I do use a sort of step mash, starting at 63, then heating to 72 before mashing out at 78.
> 
> One similarity other than the low fermentation temp (I usually ferment at 10C) is that I do at least try to lager them for a longer period of time as they are better for it. I've done some unintentional but useful experimenting in the past drinking them too soon; it was interesting to note how the beer improved over time stored cold. I'll be improving my set up next year so I will at least be able to lager every batch for a suitable length of time.



Oh yeah, decoction + BIAB could be tricky  
(Although, maybe you could reach into the bag from above during the mash, take a few scoops out and boil a portion of mash in a pot on the side....?)
But I must say, your trick with a bit of melanoidin malt is also not a bad idea! Will definitely give you some of the benefits of the Maillard-reaction which is one of the factors with decoction.
How much (%) do you use?


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## Rocker1986 (12/11/18)

keine_ahnung said:


> Oh yeah, decoction + BIAB could be tricky
> (Although, maybe you could reach into the bag from above during the mash, take a few scoops out and boil a portion of mash in a pot on the side....?)
> But I must say, your trick with a bit of melanoidin malt is also not a bad idea! Will definitely give you some of the benefits of the Maillard-reaction which is one of the factors with decoction.
> How much (%) do you use?


Originally not really feasible but where I'll be setting up the brewing equipment in our new place I could, as I could move the BBQ next to the urn and use the side burner to boil the grain portions. May give it a go some time. 

As for percentage of melanoidin, it's around the 3% mark I think (not at home to check the recipe at the moment).


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## Droopy Brew (13/11/18)

peterlonz said:


> What enzyme is Droopy Brew advocating?
> Maybe he can post his recipe for a crisp but tasty lager.
> Better still an Urquel clone, particularly if it is doable without months of low temp fermentation>



Hi Peter,
You can buy dry enzymes from HBS. I have only used them once back in my K&K days but it certainly did allow for more attenuative wort. Not sure specifically what enzyme- Maltase of some description I imagine.
I dont try to clone beers so cant help you on an Urquel. As others have said there really is no substitute for a decent lagering period if you want to do a lager properly.
The advice I gave before is if you are chasing a very bland "crisp' beer such as a Hahn superdry for example. Often people looking for 'crispness" are looking for dry and bland. I think a better word for a good lager is clean. 
Anyway my favourite German Pils is :
97% Pilsner, 2% Melanoidin, 1% Acidulated malt to 1.050.

25IBu at FWH with Halletau and 5IBU with Hallertau or Perle or Saaz at 10 min. 
Mash at 65C. Protein rest if you like.
Pitch minimum 1.5M/ml/P of S189 at 10C.
Let rise to 12C. Ferment 7 days, raise to 18C for 2 days. Drop 2C per day until it gets to 4C. Leave at 4C for 4 more days. Crash to 1C for a week. Keg and let it lager in the keg for 4 weeks.


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## Ben Davies (24/11/18)

No probs with decoction with Biab style I can only imagine it might even be easier.
Just lift the bag and scoop out your grist into your decoction pot and add wort till you get a nice thick decoction consistency and boil away.


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## Anthrony (20/2/19)

MHB said:


> Unless your water is high in Carbonate, it isn't really going to matter, just make you have enough Calcium available (50-100ppm is regarded as a minimum - I add about 100ppm to my local waters 35ish ppm). Much more important to get your pH right and ideally a bit lower than for ale say 5.1-5.3pH
> You need to be using a good Pilsner Malt, I would choose a German malt, for me Weyermann Premium Pilsner.
> Absolutely do step mash, you want to spend some time (say 30miinutes) at low (63-65oC) Beta Amylase promoting temperatures, then up to Alpha Amylase peak (69-74oC), then mash out around 80oC. If you cant step, give it an hour around 63-4oC.
> Better to mash in thinner (more water) thing 4-5:1 or even all your water in at the start (no sparge) don't over sparge.
> ...







Will also add, (for the original poster) I have better success with Wyeast liquid smack packs than with whitelabs which seem to take longer to get the numbers up, I krausen on to the next batch generally about 3 - 5 litres when it's pumping, rather than re use the cake or bothering to wash and re use as there a lot of dead soldiers in the trub,

PlZn Urquell (Wyeast 2001) is back in production and available after being unavailable for about 18 months (my favourite yeast) i like this Czech pilsener as I'm on tank water and it distinguishes the malt and hops flavours nicely without adjusting water compositon too much, a bit of calcium carbonate and sulphate go into all my beers though. .Urquell may not be everyone's cup of tea as I wouldn't describe it as a "crisp" lager. Another good Wyeast I've tried is BudVar (2000) which is true to the style with the yeast throwing more fruitier esters than the "cleaner" urquel strain.

If I were going to chase a crisp clean lager I'd look at a Stella clone, or if you like it a bit bitterer maybe a Grolsch. But as above with any beer, mash at a lower temp to reduce body to keep it drier, and make the effort to use the right yeast rather than a generic 34/70 it makes a big difference.

Another thing and I don't know if there's any science to it or not but the colder the beer is served, the least maltier it tastes, hence 'crisper' to my palate anyway and interpretation of 'crisp' in context.. Might have something to do with CO2 being better absorbed or activated more and giving it more of a tang perhaps? Not a chemist, could never balance equations.


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