# Can't get that Euro aroma



## Bribie G (16/9/16)

So you know what it's like when you pop the top off a German Pils or even good Old Aldi Sainte Etienne lager from France and you get that lovely Saaz / Hallertau / Hersbrucker nose hit.
Well I brewed and properly lagered four beers for a recent comp and all of them lacked "the nose" despite using appropriate hops.

For example here's my Dort tribute.

*2016 German Helles Exportbier*
Dortmunder Export

*Recipe Specs*
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Batch Size (L): 20.0
Total Grain (kg): 5.000
Total Hops (g): 100.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.057 (°P): 14.0
Final Gravity (FG): 1.014 (°P): 3.6
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 5.60 %
Colour (SRM): 5.0 (EBC): 9.9
Bitterness (IBU): 26.7 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 74
Boil Time (Minutes): 90

*Grain Bill*
----------------
4.500 kg Pilsner (90%)
0.300 kg Carapils (Dextrine) (6%)
0.200 kg Melanoidin (4%)

*Hop Bill*
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20.0 g Hallertau Tradition Pellet (5.7% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (1 g/L)
20.0 g Hallertau Mittlefrueh Pellet (6.3% Alpha) @ 30 Minutes (Boil) (1 g/L)
30.0 g Hersbrucker Pellet (2.8% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma) (1.5 g/L)
30.0 g Tettnanger Pellet (4% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma) (1.5 g/L)

Fermented at 9°C with Wyeast 2042 - Danish Lager

*Notes*
----------------
Dingemans Pilsner malt

Hochkurz 62, 72 no mashout.

Tettnanger at end of boil

Hersbrucker in at 65 degrees for hop "stand"

Ice chill

pitch at 7

ferment at 9

lager at 4 for 6 weeks.

Recipe Generated with *BrewMate*

On bottling and kegging, the aroma just isn't there. Similarly with a Vienna Lager that was all Saaz, CAP with a late addition of Hallertau mit and an Aussie with a late addition of Hersbrucker. Judges' comments were pretty uniform: "could do with more hop aroma".
I've bought hops in from a variety of suppliers, mostly Craftbrewer and Brewman with a few from HBHB when I got my Micromatics so I'm not accusing anyone of selling stale hops.
Could it just be that we have to accept that Euro hop pellets, whilst convenient to use, are generally past their best when they get here compared to the fresh supplies that the Euro breweries are getting annually?
Or is there something else I could try such as keg hopping.
Currently most of my aroma hops go in as a "hop stand" in the cube and I use multiple small cubes that get chilled fairly quickly.
edit: and I got with the strength this year and bought a vac sealer, all hops kept in the freezer.

I don't seem to have aroma problems with Aussie or US hops.


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## fraser_john (16/9/16)

Bribie G said:


> <snip>
> 
> Could it just be that we have to accept that Euro hop pellets, whilst convenient to use, are generally past their best when they get here compared to the fresh supplies that the Euro breweries are getting annually?
> Or is there something else I could try such as keg hopping.
> ...


Yup, I notice the same thing, when bulk buying the dates of the 1kg bags we were delivered were over two years old, it might be that fresh stuff does get here, we just don't get to see it.

Even the fuggles and goldings don't seem up to par.

Maybe a retailer can helps us understand here? Or, is the 3g/L simply not sufficient for Euro aromas?


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## Brownsworthy (16/9/16)

Get heaps sweaty and don't wash and before to long you will have that Euro aroma


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## Droopy Brew (16/9/16)

Maybe try a FWH addition? I find that it, along with whirlpool additions bring a lot of aroma but more importantly stabilise aroma. It hangs around a lot longer than dry hop aroma in my experience. The long lagering period would no doubt diminish some aromas so this might help.


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## Matplat (16/9/16)

Long term solution..... grow some of your own!

Not much help I know.... but think how good that beer will be in 2 years time! h34r:


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## GalBrew (16/9/16)

I like to use a big addition of low alpha nobles in my Dortmunder, one at 60 min, one at 5-10min. I also cube, so that hasn't been an issue (my last Dortmunder got 3rd in AABC a couple of years ago). I use w-34/70 for all my German lagers. Not sure a Danish lager yeast is going to give you the same result as a German yeast?


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## yurgy (16/9/16)

braukaiser says some esters don't form till after 12 weeks of lagering.


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## fungrel (16/9/16)

Could quite well be fermentation issue as your recipe doesn't seem to be an issue. 

In my experience late addition hops won't allow the aroma you're looking for.


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## waggastew (16/9/16)

Bribie, did a side by side with Stella (a leftover from a party) and I noticed the same thing. My lager was all 60min hops but got me thinking about how much aroma you can get from late additions. 

Given reputation of mega brews I am thinking that the hop smack on the nose is from hop extract? If it takes me 90g of Saaz in whirlpool to even go close I guarantee Diagio ain't spending anywhere near $4 a case in hops


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## neal32 (17/9/16)

I would be using 34/70, filtering(if you can do it without introducing oxygen) and keeping the water soft but adding a bit of gypsum to accentuate the late hops as opposed to just adding more.

For me, using a German lager yeast would be key(2206 or 2308 as well) as for me that's what produces what i would call "a euro aroma".

IMO.

Edit: It's got to be the yeast as your recipe looks solid and the fermentation schedule too. Yeast has such a crazy influence on hop flavour and aroma. I did a split batch of this recipe, http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.php , one with 1318 (excellent yeast) and one with 1332 (probably the worst yeast I've used) and they were two very, very different smelling and tasting beers. It would be hard to believe they were the same wort, hopping schedule and fermentation.


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## bradsbrew (17/9/16)

Bribie, 
Do you think it might go back to getting your water profile right? I remember Lyle at Pubs talking about his lagers etc,


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## Bribie G (17/9/16)

I should have said that I'm now using rain water, adjusted per Braukaiser - in the case of Dort their water is a lot harder than, say, Munich.
I'll have a crack at the 34/70 and some FWH for my next lager and see what happens.

I'd be interested in hop extracts, I did post some time ago about whether Euro extracts are available. For example Oettinger has a nice hop nose and they just use extracts (hopsextract listed on label) and I'm pretty sure that Bavaria (Netherlands) list that as well.

So there's obviously a lot of it in production but whether home brew suppliers can get their hands on it to supply to home brewers is another thing.
I once tried some "liquid hops" from a supplier but it was so old it did SFA for the brew.


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## RdeVjun (17/9/16)

Bribie, were all of these lagers judged by the same judges? Not saying they were wrong rather that a more diverse range of opinions may be helpful.
Anyway, better send me a few bottles to be sure, eh?!


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## Bribie G (17/9/16)

They actually ended up in three different categories (pale, amber, pils whatever) so I did get a range. I'll actually pop a couple in a bag on Monday and you can do a test with Pete if you like. They are very drinkable but as you'll note the initial aroma hit just isn't there.


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## luggy (17/9/16)

Have you thought about dry hopping toward the end of the lagering period?


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## Bribie G (17/9/16)

Can be grassy apparently.


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## Randai (17/9/16)

Is part of it malt? I mean, I do remember a distinct malt sort of .... twangy something from the euro pils.


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## Black n Tan (17/9/16)

Bribie G said:


> Can be grassy apparently.


I too have faced the issue to speak of. So I tried dry hopping: Saaz was awful, however I did find that dry hopping with Hallertau worked quite well. That said it really shouldn't be required. I think the 2014 noble hops were lacking as this is when I noticed a reduction in both flavour and aroma in my pilsners. I have now got some 2015 noble hops and hope these will be better...time will tell.


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## RdeVjun (20/9/16)

Cheers Bribie, we will pay particular attention to the aromatics upon opening and beyond.
FWIW I've long held the view that, like some base and spec malts, the seasonality and terroir, but also processing/ handling introduces variability in hops lines that can influence the aroma character in the final product, so even if you're able to nail down a particular variety and technique, still YMMV. To counter this, I've some willingness to try the liquid hops products such as these, although of course I'd much rather stick with the hops pellets, plugs or flowers, but that could be one way to overcome this problem provided that the products are up to snuff.
Oh, and its just occurred to me that competition judges probably don't get exposed to that initial sulphry noble snatch upon opening, its fleeting but distinctive, the stewards probably get it but perhaps not the actual judges. How to overcome this, I just don't know.
Of course, its not made any easier with Euro lagers being such a long- winded, time- consuming and lethargic process either, throughout this glacial lager brewing folly I'm often reminded of Butters' et al pommie bitter 'grain to brain' in under a week.


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## Bribie G (20/9/16)

Those liquid hops are the ones I used about 5 years ago. Not critical of CB but I think they were sold a dud there.

I've sent the bottles to Tidal Pete. 

As far as Comps go I far prefer the opening of bottles by the judges as we do at Grafton.
Jugging is a genuine factor in killing carbonation and head, probably get a quick rinse in town water then the beer poured into a similarly abused glass. Proper disposable beakers are the ducks and I believe they are used at QABC now?

Many a time I've had comments such as "small head that quickly dissipates" Yet I have photos of exactly the same brews with rocky long lasting heads.

Ayway end rant.


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## TheWiggman (20/9/16)

Bribie G said:


> For example Oettinger has a nice hop nose and they just use extracts (hopsextract listed on label)


Not any more, the PC bastards have updated the rear label.
I have had a similar conundrum with my limited experience with lagers and I'm wondering if the relationship might be yeast-based. Gather 'round kids...

I've currently got an 'Aussie Pils' fermenting which consists of JW pils, PoR early and a whack of CZ Saaz at whirlpool. Cubed. I've done a similar recipe before and got some moderate Saaz aroma. It was 4.2% ABV whereas the current brew is 4.9%. I used Urquell 2001 - decent pitch in HB terms - and overall wasn't a bad drop albeit not perfect.
Cheeky Peak unfortunately only had one lager yeast on hand and that was WLP940 Mexican Lager. I'm down to about 1.015 after 5 days at 11.5-12°C so raised the controller temp yesterday and took a sample taste. My my is it bland. Great in one respect because it's low-fault, and would be perfect to knock down in the hot summer sun a la Corona. However there is very little hop aroma to speak of, much less with this than when I used the Urquell 2001. Once in the glass it may well work but at this stage it feels like I've wasted 45g of Saaz.
In the same vein, my recent James Boags-alike used Wyeast 2042 with a late addition of PoR. I wasn't able to get the Melbourne Bitter and Carlton Draught levels of pride aroma but it was definitely 'catty'. It was fermented at 12°C and allowed to rise to 15°C late in the ferment. I believe the yeast works well to push more of the hop aroma and even though it was fermented lower than your typical regime Bribie, it still worked to let the pride 'shine'. It was well received by Draught drinkers which is a nut I've been trying to crack for years. Contrasting with CUB's offerings though, their hop aroma _must_ be from the extract because if hops aren't used in the boil for CD and MB how else would they get in there? Likewise for Bitburger, OeTTINGER, Trumer etc. That said, others like DAB, Urquell, Weihenstephaner and so on still have hop aroma en masse and are not made using extract.

One thing we don't do on the home brew level is massive yeast pitches like the breweries. I recall MHB posting that commercial breweries use the equivalent of 60 smack packs in a 23l brew. Could this (in conjunction with fresh hops) be the difference? The yeast choice too undoubtedly has impact on the hop aroma but considering you're using 2042 and others 34/70, I'd be surprised if this is an issue.


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