# White Labs Yeast > Are Starters Required?



## Spiesy (26/2/14)

Hi AHB crew,

I've had a few people ask me the same question in the last couple of days regarding this - so I thought I'd try to dispel this misnomer that seems to exist:

*White Labs yeast do NOT require a starter any more than Wyeast would require a starter.*

Both White Labs and Wyeast contain 100-billion cells in their packaging when fresh. Both are equally susceptible to deterioration from poor handling, notably warm temperatures and time.

The only difference is that Wyeast contain an smack-pack "Activator", that is intended to confirm the viability of your yeast. But as long as your yeast has been handled correctly, using a Yeast Viability Calculator (such as Mr. Malty) should be able to not only give you an idea on the viability of your yeast (based on it's production date), but also how much yeast you require for your brew (based on volume and gravity).

White Labs say that one fresh vial is enough to inoculate a standard 20l batch at a maximum OG of 1070 or below.

Obviously for higher gravities, older yeast or lagers - you would require a larger yeast population in order to ferment… but this applies to all yeasts, liquid or dry.

Just some food for thought


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## Screwtop (26/2/14)

I agree and reiterate::




> White Labs Pitchable Yeast is packaged with 70 to 140 billion yeast cells, which corresponds approximately to a 1-2 liter size starter. Lag times are typically between 12-24 hours for a normal strength brew.
> 
> A yeast starter is used to initiate cell activity or increase the cell count before using it to make your beer. The yeast will grow in this smaller volume, usually for 1-2 days, which then can be added to 5 gallons of wort.


Plus 5 Gallons = 18.9L

Screwy


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## GalBrew (26/2/14)

None of the available pitching rate calculators agree with that, up to 1.070 with no starter? Not to mention lager yeasts.


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## Spiesy (26/2/14)

GalBrew said:


> None of the available pitching rate calculators agree with that, up to 1.070 with no starter? Not to mention lager yeasts.


I mentioned lager yeasts.

The point of the post is that White Labs is no different to Wyeast. They both have the same yeast population.

And both White Labs and Wyeast claim that their packaged products will do a single batch. Wyeast claim up to 1060, White Labs 1070 - both 5 gallons volume.

Read into what you like, and do what you like by all means - this is just a guide. Again, the point of the post is that White Labs is no more reliant on a starter than Wyeast, and according to both manufacturers for most single batch brews* you are fine to use one fresh packet.

*meaning most OG's are under 1060 and 18-20l batch size.


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## Spiesy (26/2/14)

Screwtop said:


> I agree and reiterate::
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Or 18.927l, if you want to be completely accurate… obviously the gravity plays a part.

I was simply trying to simplify the conversion.


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## MartinOC (26/2/14)

Wyeast/Whitelabs - Doesn't really matter. You should always do your own calculations & propogations to ensure proper populations for the best fermentations.

Yours in "ations"

Martin


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## bradsbrew (26/2/14)

I have used the white labs yeasts just the same way I have used the wyeast ones, no starter at all. 1050 OG no problems.


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## Cocko (26/2/14)

I have found that most people and more so even I originally thought that liquid yeasts, either brand, needed a starter. They do NOT - if fresh.

By no means am I dismissing the use of a starter, as I often use them myself, but in my experience, pitching a fresh WL vial or WY bag - you should have activity within 12-24 hours.

With the White Labs I have used in the last 2 months, I have simply shaken the vial, pitched/tipped in to the brew and it is always off and running with in 12 hours.

20c - As 5c and 10c will be faded out next year 

:icon_cheers:


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## bradsbrew (26/2/14)

Only concern I had with the white labs vial was after I let it warm up and gave it a shake to mix it did spurt as I took the lid off. Would recommend spraying the vial with starsan prior to opening.


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## Spiesy (27/2/14)

bradsbrew said:


> Only concern I had with the white labs vial was after I let it warm up and gave it a shake to mix it did spurt as I took the lid off. Would recommend spraying the vial with starsan prior to opening.


I had heard of this but have honestly never had it happen. 

Maybe because after hearing of it, I'm careful when opening. I shake thoroughly, let sit for a bit and then just gently tip back and forth before slowing opening the cap. Success. 
And all at ambient temps.


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## doon (27/2/14)

Do white labs have a produced on date or just a best before? As most yeast calculators seem to want a produced on date


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## Spiesy (27/2/14)

doon said:


> Do white labs have a produced on date or just a best before? As most yeast calculators seem to want a produced on date


Best before. 

They give their yeast a four month shelf life, so you simply take four months off the BB date to get your production date.


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## mje1980 (27/2/14)

If either white labs or wyeast are very freh and OG is under 1.040 I'll pitch straight in, other than that, I make a starter. Been caught a few times where either brand should have been able to kick off and ferment the batch, but have had long lag times and not great beers. Just my opinion, been using both brands for maybe 8 or 9 years.


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## Spiesy (27/2/14)

mje1980 said:


> If either white labs or wyeast are very freh and OG is under 1.040 I'll pitch straight in, other than that, I make a starter. Been caught a few times where either brand should have been able to kick off and ferment the batch, but have had long lag times and not great beers. Just my opinion, been using both brands for maybe 8 or 9 years.


Stating the obvious here, I know, but different strains within different camps will also exhibit different fermentation characteristics.


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## mje1980 (27/2/14)

Yeah I realise that, most of what I used to brew was uk ales, and I had a few batches that in theory, should have kicked off and fermented fine, but they weren't the greatest beers, not like previous beers with the same strains. Now I just make a starter, saves the worry and gamble. It just ensures I've done everything to get the yeast as happy as I can before flogging it with a whip and forcing it to make glorious beer for me haha.


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## 1974Alby (27/2/14)

Ive also had white labs spurt everywhere when openeing...its a PITA and end up with yeast pouring all over my hands and the outside of the vial...and not getting the full volume into the fermentor, I must be doing it wrong!


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## Spiesy (27/2/14)

Albainian said:


> Ive also had white labs spurt everywhere when openeing...its a PITA and end up with yeast pouring all over my hands and the outside of the vial...and not getting the full volume into the fermentor, I must be doing it wrong!


Try my method. Hasn't failed yet.


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## Screwtop (27/2/14)

Spiesy said:


> Or 18.927l, if you want to be completely accurate… obviously the gravity plays a part.
> 
> I was simply trying to simplify the conversion.


Damn now I'll have to redo my calculations 

Simply wanting to point out that pitching rates depend upon accurate volume as well as gravity. For an ale around 0.75 million cells of viable yeast, for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato.

Screwy


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## MCHammo (27/2/14)

I've found the White Labs vials like to spurt everywhere too, particularly when you let them reach room temperature (prior to pitching into wort or starter). I've had some success by opening the vial while still cold before sealing it up again. Then, I relieve the pressure every now and then while it warms to pitching temp.


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## carniebrew (27/2/14)

No matter if you use Yeastcalc or Mr Malty, they base their calculations on an 'optimal' pitch rate of:

*Ale: *0.75 million cells of yeast for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato
*Lager: *1.5 million cells of yeast for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato
So for 19 litres of a 1.040 ale, you'd need 142 billion cells to achieve this optimal rate. Even a 1 month old Wyeast or White Labs pack will have only around half of that. On the day of manufacture, the packs have 30% less yeast in them than it's suggested you use for an ale. If you've found underpitching by 30-50% doesn't cause you any hassles in lag time or fermentation result/flavour, then go ahead and pitch straight from the pack. Admittedly some beers (e.g. weizens) might even benefit from that.

Personally I'll make a starter every time.


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## sponge (27/2/14)

I just re-hydrate my yeast.





h34r:


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## carniebrew (27/2/14)

I like to re-hydrate my dry yeast with liquid yeast. Let the bastards fight it out. Last single-cell organism standing.


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## technobabble66 (27/2/14)

MCHammo said:


> I've found the White Labs vials like to spurt everywhere too, particularly when you let them reach room temperature (prior to pitching into wort or starter). I've had some success by opening the vial while still cold before sealing it up again. Then, I relieve the pressure every now and then while it warms to pitching temp.


+1 to this. 
First one I used went everywhere (still fermented fine though). 
The others I've used I've simply cracked the seal to allow the co2 to escape every 15-30 mins as it came up to room temp. Really a piece of cake. 
I think I prefer having my yeasties in a vial where I can see exactly what's going on, so I don't mind having to do a little degassing. 

Just out of interest, what is the cutoff for being considered "fresh"? 2 months old?


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## fattox (27/2/14)

I've been caught out by these - normally I will just pitch, but once I get above their recommended batch/OG size, or a combination of the two, I will do a starter. For reference, I just punched in a BoPils a couple weeks ago on Wyeast Urquell. As my stir plate only just got here, I had to run about a 3 litre starter to get it cranking along.

Basically, I work out where my OG and volumes are, and then what cell count I need. If the package has enough cells, it gets dumped straight in, if not, I use the beersmith calculator. I don't actually know how accurate it is, but it hasn't failed me yet! Now to get that bloody red ale going again, properly pitched!


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## fattox (27/2/14)

technobabble66 said:


> Just out of interest, what is the cutoff for being considered "fresh"? 2 months old?


I use 70% as a minimum for "fresh". Anything more, that's awesome, anything less, get a starter going (personal preference)

Also, for what it's worth, I had nothing better to do today, and graphed the viability vs. age of yeast in months.





e: for some reason, it took 1 as being the first value rather than 0. So, the first value is technically the day it goes into the bag.


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