# Burned Wort



## Yob (11/3/11)

Afternoon all... a few months back I tried doing a 2x23lt side by side single hop comparison. Perle and Cascade. 

Ive been blending them for a while with good results but wanted to know what they were like on their own..

When boiling my wort from the spec grains (BigW 19lt pot) I was perhaps (assuredly) a little lax on stirring to keep from burning the bottom, when all was said and done and the mix went into the fermenters I was upset to find several scalding 'rings' on the bottom of the pot :angry: 

If it wasnt for the creed of 'you brew it, you drink it' they would almost certainly have gone down the sink.. I couldnt bring myself to throw em and have been making my way slowly through 40lt of almost the crappest beer Ive ever made..

Im not very good at describing the taste of it, but the first ones out of the cupboard made me want to spit after each mouthful.. drinkg it outside became very important.. :icon_vomit: 

has anyone else destroyed a brew like this? Did it get better over time? to my tase buds it does appear to be getting better but I may just be getting used to it... will be happy to never do it again and Ive become alot more careful with boiling the wort...

I guess a little investment in a better pot will go a long way


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## Dave70 (11/3/11)

Don't Stone & Wood plonk hot river stones in the wort to get the same effect for their 'Stone Beer'? (ha ha, now I get it..)

You must have really had the burner cranking to scald the bottom of a 23l batch of wort.

Guess I'll shelve the idea of using the oxy / acetylene heating torch then.


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## black_labb (11/3/11)

I was distracted by a couple things and did a near 3hour boil on a hefeweizen. Not stirring and the long boil allowed some trub to settle onto the element and give the wort a burnt flavour. I added a touch of ginger (boiled in water then filtered) which I added to the ferment. The burnt flavour seemed to settle out and I now have a ginger weizen. I cant taste the burnt flavour but I've only had one that wasnt properly carbed yet (bottled 1 week ago, drank the first 2 nights ago to see if the flavour was bad).

Sounds like you werent so lucky


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## Nick JD (11/3/11)

There's no way I could burn the wort with my stove's element. I can get it to 100C though - not much above that though because of the 95% water.


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## unrealeous (11/3/11)

iamozziyob said:


> If it wasnt for the creed of 'you brew it, you drink it' they would almost certainly have gone down the sink.. I couldnt bring myself to throw em and have been making my way slowly through 40lt of almost the crappest beer Ive ever made..


This is crazy talk. Life is too short to be drinking rubbish. Tip it out, brew another batch, move on - There are better ways to punish yourself.


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## browndog (11/3/11)

I'm pretty sure you can't burn wort and slightly caramelising it should make it spittable. More likely an infection of some kind.


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## aaronpetersen (11/3/11)

I didn't know people stirred the wort during the boil. Is that common? I know I've never done it and I've never had burnt tasting beer. Maybe my burner isn't grunty enough (italian spiral on low pressure reg).


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## HeavyNova (11/3/11)

browndog said:


> I'm pretty sure you can't burn wort and slightly caramelising it should make it *spittable*. More likely an infection of some kind.



Hi Browndog,

I've only recently become aware of 'kettle caramelisation'. What do you mean by "spittable"?


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## Dave70 (11/3/11)

black_labb said:


> I was distracted by a couple things and did a near 3hour boil on a hefeweizen.



Distractions during the boil can end badly.
I recall being distracted one afternoon when my wife popped down to the garage in a rather amorous mood.
But whats 3 minutes on a 90 minute boil..


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## argon (11/3/11)

HeavyNova said:


> Hi Browndog,
> 
> I've only recently become aware of 'kettle caramelisation'. What do you mean by "spittable"?




i think he means that caramelisation should _not _make it spittable... ie unpleasant to consume


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## Pennywise (11/3/11)

AaronP said:


> I didn't know people stirred the wort during the boil. Is that common? I know I've never done it and I've never had burnt tasting beer. Maybe my burner isn't grunty enough (italian spiral on low pressure reg).



I only stir a few times while it's comming up to the boil, once it starts a rolling boil, you shouldn't need to stir it, it's doing it itself, thats why they call it a rolling boil. 

:icon_offtopic: What volumes are you boiling with that low pressure reg?


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## HeavyNova (11/3/11)

argon said:


> i think he means that caramelisation should _not _make it spittable... ie unpleasant to consume


Cheers. I just wasn't sure if it was some special brewing term or not.


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## aaronpetersen (11/3/11)

Pennywise said:


> I only stir a few times while it's comming up to the boil, once it starts a rolling boil, you shouldn't need to stir it, it's doing it itself, thats why they call it a rolling boil.
> 
> :icon_offtopic: What volumes are you boiling with that low pressure reg?


It'll do a 23 L batch no problem. Haven't tried anything bigger yet.


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## browndog (11/3/11)

HeavyNova said:


> Hi Browndog,
> 
> I've only recently become aware of 'kettle caramelisation'. What do you mean by "spittable"?



woops, I mean should not make it spittable (going off the OP saying he wanted to spit it out) kettle caramelisation adds complexity to the malt and is good thing unless you are makeing an ultra blonde nocarb no taste lager thingy


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## haysie (11/3/11)

I dont agree the boil is an issue here. If the beer is that shithouse that it is spittable. It would be a fermentation/yeast issue.


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## manticle (11/3/11)

browndog said:


> I'm pretty sure you can't burn wort and slightly caramelising it should make it spittable. More likely an infection of some kind.



Caramelisation/maillard reduction type thingys are lovely but you most certainly can burn wort.

I've over caramelised my reductions before and it's stinky, black, crusty and burnt. I think Scruffy once reduced his entire pot to black crust after falling asleep and letting the boil go 8 hours.


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## goomboogo (11/3/11)

iamozziyob, can you clarify whether this beer is full mash or extract with specialty grain?


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## haysie (11/3/11)

manticle said:


> I think Scruffy once reduced his entire pot to black crust after falling asleep and letting the boil go 8 hours.



Thats cause he was drunk!


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## manticle (11/3/11)

No chance


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## browndog (11/3/11)

manticle said:


> Caramelisation/maillard reduction type thingys are lovely but you most certainly can burn wort.
> 
> I've over caramelised my reductions before and it's stinky, black, crusty and burnt. I think Scruffy once reduced his entire pot to black crust after falling asleep and letting the boil go 8 hours.




I meant burn wort in practical terms.


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (11/3/11)

I accidentally did this a couple of weeks back, Fell asleep during a late night brewing session. Definetly can be burnt....... I Fermented it, and it tasted like shit, but it was clear wort - crystal clear  It ended up as crystal clear lawn food.


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## manticle (11/3/11)

I'm not following BD.

Do you mean under normal circumstances with full volume? eg 30-ish litres for 60-90 minutes?


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## Yob (11/3/11)

:icon_offtopic: sorry for the tardiness.. Ive been putting the STC together... oh the joy to see the light!!

Back OT.. I think its more to do with uneven heat distrubution on the bottom of the thin based BigW pot, the stove plate only covers about half the surface area of the pot, maybe a switch to gas will be on the cards.. <_< slope something slippery?

was extract and spec grains with 10g POR @ 60 min, following the bittering I split the batch for the 15 min and 5 min additions respectivly with chinook (so the notes say) and cascade, both brews suffer from the affliction.. unfortunatly..

there were scald rings on the bottom of the pot and in fact took some removing with the elbow... 

I assume this to have happened before the rolling boil, ive not stirred it once it gets to that point.. as pointed out it's rolling.. I believe it was a distinct 'lack' of movement which caused it.

Its not the worst beer ive made.. (close though) but it is the worst for some time and a dent to the pride is ok...probably inevitable as I push my boundaries... drinking my problem will encourage me to not bloody do it again.. 

ive not thrown a full bottle for some time though ive deliberatly not finished a few  

im not afraid of my shame and I will drink it all the same, just not enjoy it as much or let anyone else drink iit...


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## browndog (11/3/11)

manticle said:


> I'm not following BD.
> 
> Do you mean under normal circumstances with full volume? eg 30-ish litres for 60-90 minutes?




Yes normal circumstances you cannot burn wort. You can boil it down to toffee and set fire to it if you have a mind to.


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## speedie (12/3/11)

one can certinly burn mash
if the conditions are right ie too much heat without stirring a mash that is well lets say stiff
in my very earl days i burnt mash in an urn that had too much grain for the vessel volume
and it was as stated put in the garden 
a les B) son well learnt


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## Nick JD (12/3/11)

speedie said:


> one can certinly burn mash
> if the conditions are right ie too much heat without stirring a mash that is well lets say stiff
> in my very earl days i burnt mash in an urn that had too much grain for the vessel volume
> and it was as stated put in the garden
> a les B) son well learnt



I can burn farts. No matter what I do I can't set relevance on fire.


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## manticle (13/3/11)

speedie said:


> one can certinly burn mash
> if the conditions are right ie too much heat without stirring a mash that is well lets say stiff
> in my very earl days i burnt mash in an urn that had too much grain for the vessel volume
> and it was as stated put in the garden
> a les B) son well learnt



Maybe if direct heating. Not if using an insulated vessel without direct heating.

Original post was about wort rather than mash though.


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## pbrosnan (13/3/11)

manticle said:


> Caramelisation/maillard reduction type thingys are lovely but you most certainly can burn wort.
> 
> I've over caramelised my reductions before and it's stinky, black, crusty and burnt. I think Scruffy once reduced his entire pot to black crust after falling asleep and letting the boil go 8 hours.


Yes but barring falling asleep, having long sex sessions etc wort won't caramelise during a 90 minute boil. That is unless you drop white hot rocks in or something.


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## manticle (13/3/11)

pbrosnan said:


> Yes but barring falling asleep, having long sex sessions etc wort won't caramelise during a 90 minute boil. That is unless you drop white hot rocks in or something.



Full volume no. However OP was talking about extract and therefore possbibly/probably not referring to full volume. In smaller volumes, I have noticed burnt crust on the botton of a thin walled pot.

In my full volume AG brews - no.


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## Yob (13/3/11)

manticle said:


> not referring to full volume. In smaller volumes, I have noticed burnt crust on the botton of a thin walled pot.



correct both counts Mants... 

Ive reported what I suspect was responsible for the failure of the brews based on my observation, rightly or wrongly seems to still be in question, 

Ive since used the same pot, been very careful with bringing it to the boil and had good results with no 'extra' scalding rings on the bottom, though admittedly Ive not replicated the brew or the same experiment.. yet.

With regard to the 'crust', on your brew with the thinner pots, im interested in your opinion of the effect it had on the brew and the taste..?? 

you certainly do have a finer pallet than I in that regard 

:icon_cheers:


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## manticle (13/3/11)

My allegedly superior palate notwithstanding, it's been a long time since I've done anything but full volume and a long time since I've used my thin walled pot.

What you suggest makes sense - if I cook a napoli or sauce and burn the bottom and keep cooking, I can taste the burnt flavour. If I transfer the sauce straight away, ad cook in a diferent pot ot clean the first and transfer back, it is fine so my theory is that burning early and continuing in the same vessel = burnt flavour.

I have reduced wort in a separate pan and added back to the boil with no resulting burnt taste, despite some burned bits at the bottom of the pan. However if my above theory is correct, those burned areas probably happen right toward the end with no effect on flavour. Certainly it's only at the very end of reduction that any burnt areas might show and I do monitor the wort throughout.

A lot of conjecture above and it may not be helpful but my guess is - if you are tasting a flavour that relates to burnt wort and noticing burnt wort when you make the beer, then burnt wort is the culprit. Try reducing the heat once you hit the boil and giving a gentle stir every so often throughought the boil.

I hope that makes sense.


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## Yob (13/3/11)

Thanks Mants.. 

with regard to the above, ive found that not using the stove on "high" and paying close attention to the wort ie: stirring till boil and keeping it moving.. that the taste Ive found with that brew has not been replicated. My conclusion is as observed above.

My solution could well be to move in the direction of 

a: a decent freakin pot
b: gas burner 
c: combination of gas and existing equipment
d: BIAB setup.. 
e: 10,000lt brewery and brew pub


slip... slide... awayyyyyyyyy......


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## Nick JD (13/3/11)

I have been using the BigW 19L pot for yonks and boiling 1.065+ wort has never gotten close to burning with a 2300W element under it on full noise.


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## Yob (13/3/11)

well arent you special? 

10 f*%ing points for most helpful post ever.. :blink: 

maybe I should come and use your effing stove....


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## pbrosnan (13/3/11)

manticle said:


> OP was talking about extract


Ah, I see the problem now.


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## Nick JD (14/3/11)

iamozziyob said:


> maybe I should come and use your effing stove....



It's not the stove. It's the yob who turns the dial up too high.


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## katzke (14/3/11)

So is this about burnt extract and not burnt wort?

It is easy to burn extract if you dump it in and do not stir like a mad man. Even if you drizzle it in and do not stir well you can end up with pure extract on the bottom of the pot and burn it.

That said I have had extract bun on the bottom of the pot and still had drinkable beer. I have seen extract burn and seen floaties of black chunks in a brew. I do not remember if I ver found out how the beer turned out.

I have had all grain batches with brown spots on the bottom of the kettle from burnt or hot spots. The beer turned out well.

I would guess if you torched a batch that it could be bad. I would also think that if it was not drinkable it had to be from a bad ferment or some kind of infection. After all stout is made from burnt grain.


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