# Chicken Carcass In An Apple Cider?



## kierent (18/10/09)

Hi. 
I was talking to a Welsh mate thismorning and I mentioned to him that I wanted to make a cider. I've never made one before but want to try my first. He said that the best cider is made my putting a chicken carcass in your fermenter with everything else. Not sure if it's supposed to be raw or cooked.... Of course my first reaction was NO WAY but he reckons all the good traditional ales in Wales had animal carcasses in them to enhance the flavour. I'm sceptical so I thought I'd ask on here if anyone's heard of it or done it. I did a search on here and on google but didn't come up with anything..... Any thoughts? I'm thinking maybe it makes it taste more traditional, but maybe that's not a good thing! Then again maybe he's just taking me for a ride but I wouldn't think he'd do that


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## Effect (18/10/09)

kierent said:


> Hi.
> I was talking to a Welsh mate thismorning and I mentioned to him that I wanted to make a cider. I've never made one before but want to try my first. He said that the best cider is made my putting a chicken carcass in your fermenter with everything else. Not sure if it's supposed to be raw or cooked.... Of course my first reaction was NO WAY but he reckons all the good traditional ales in Wales had animal carcasses in them to enhance the flavour. I'm sceptical so I thought I'd ask on here if anyone's heard of it or done it. I did a search on here and on google but didn't come up with anything..... Any thoughts? I'm thinking maybe it makes it taste more traditional, but maybe that's not a good thing! Then again maybe he's just taking me for a ride but I wouldn't think he'd do that



Linky Link

Do it the other way round, put apple cider in your chicken.

If you put a chicken carcass in your apple cider...well, I would hate to see the infection you'd get.

Cheers
Phil


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## manticle (18/10/09)

I reckon he's pulling your leg. Sounds like a great journey towards botulism.

I could be wrong but it sounds horrible and counter-intuitive and none of the tarditional cidermaking things I've read (admittedly not loads) suggest anything of the sort.

Fresh apples of different varieties, pressed, clarified and left to ferment at cool temperatures with no additives (no extra yeast or sugar etc) is the most traditional method I've heard of (breton cidermaking method).

I'd be very interested to hear if I'm wrong.


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## Kleiny (18/10/09)

manticle said:


> botulism.



 Dont start that word off again


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## Kai (18/10/09)

manticle said:


> I reckon he's pulling your leg. Sounds like a great journey towards botulism.



Not in cider, far too acidic.

I wonder if the gelatin from the connective tissue aided fining.


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## bum (18/10/09)

I think this gag is reasonably common - I've heard people making the same claim about cats in cider. 

Maybe it has been done, maybe it has not but I assure you that you can make a great cider without the inclusion of any sentient beings.


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## b_thomas (18/10/09)

If you've got a copy of Charlie Papazian's books there's a recipe in there for Cock Beer... some 17/18th century recipe and no doubt long before micro organisms were even known about.

I'll dig it up if I can, or at least reference it.


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## b_thomas (18/10/09)

Here we go

In order to make this, the Complete Housewife instructs us to take 10 gallons of ale and a large cock, the older the better. Parboil the cock, flea [flay?] him, and stamp him in a stone mortar till his bones are broken (you must craw and gut him when you flea him), then put the cock in 2 quarts of sack [16th century dry spanish wine], and put to it 3 pounds of raisins of the sun stoned, some blades of mace, a few cloves; put all these into a canvas bag, and a little before you find the ale has done working, put the ale and bag together into a vessel; in a week or 9 days bottle it up, fill the bottles but just above the neck, and give it the same time to ripen as other ale.

(Pg 96,The Complete Joy of Homebrewing 3rd ed, Papazian, 2003)

:icon_vomit:


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## bum (18/10/09)

b_thomas said:


> take 10 gallons of ale and a large cock, the older the better.



I'm pretty sure 10 gallons isn't enough.


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## manticle (18/10/09)

b_thomas said:


> If you've got a copy of Charlie Papazian's books there's a recipe in there for Cock Beer... some 17/18th century recipe and no doubt long before micro organisms were even known about.
> 
> I'll dig it up if I can, or at least reference it.



Please keep your cock out of my beer.


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## winkle (18/10/09)

bum said:


> I think this gag is reasonably common - I've heard people making the same claim about cats in cider.
> 
> Maybe it has been done, maybe it has not but I assure you that you can make a great cider without the inclusion of any sentient beings.


Scrumpy = cider + rat.


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## MHB (18/10/09)

Try searching for Cocked Ale, it was allegedly practiced in Wales and Cornwall, tho I suspect it might have been talked about more than actually done perhaps to keep the visiting English away from the better ales.

There is a tribe in the Andes Mountains of Peru who inoculate their beer with the faeces of babies (before they are weened) tests show it contains a very pure yeast culture.

I dont think i want to experiment with either practice thanks.

MHB


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## Screwtop (18/10/09)

Yes you should add a cock to cider, and, watch out for drop bears :lol:

Screwy


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## bradsbrew (18/10/09)

Incider stirs all of his ciders with a cock............and its not his though :huh:


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## kierent (18/10/09)

i think i'll leave cock beer for someone else. not sure anyone would want to try it just beacuse of the name! you've gotta wonder who thought of cock ale first though!


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## /// (18/10/09)

2 words:

Yeast 

Nutrient

Scotty


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## O'Henry (19/10/09)

+1 for the nutrient. The version of cock ale in a 1960's homebrew book I saw was using the leftovers from a roast chicken, not the whole thing.


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## peas_and_corn (19/10/09)

Isn't there enough cock in AHB without putting it in the beer?


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## Jono_w (19/10/09)

Iv'e heard of Dick n Cider, but Cock that's new..


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## stillscottish (19/10/09)

b_thomas said:


> Here we go
> 
> In order to make this, the Complete Housewife instructs us to take 10 gallons of ale and a large cock, the older the better.



I'm quite old and I have a large cock.

What do I do again........?







:blink:


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## bum (19/10/09)

I believe the next step was:



b_thomas said:


> stamp him in a stone mortar till his bones are broken


Pics or it didn't happen.


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## Clive (22/10/09)

b_thomas said:


> Here we go
> 
> In order to make this, the Complete Housewife instructs us to take 10 gallons of ale and a large cock, the older the better. Parboil the cock, flea [flay?] him, and stamp him in a stone mortar till his bones are broken (you must craw and gut him when you flea him), then put the cock in 2 quarts of sack [16th century dry spanish wine], and put to it 3 pounds of raisins of the sun stoned, some blades of mace, a few cloves; put all these into a canvas bag, and a little before you find the ale has done working, put the ale and bag together into a vessel; in a week or 9 days bottle it up, fill the bottles but just above the neck, and give it the same time to ripen as other ale.
> 
> ...



LOL - 'The Complete Housewife' was a recipe book written in the 18th Century - a time in which you could probably almost eat a chicken raw and get away with it. These days, because of intensive farming, virtually all store-bought chicken is going to be infected to some degree with either Campylobacter or Salmonella which is why such an emphasis is placed nowadays on making sure chicken is completely cooked through. As someone who has had a severe case of gastroentiritus caused by campylobacter please let me assure you that a good dose of gastro caused by either of these bacteria is going to make you wish you were dead. 

All in all, by far the most likely outcome of mixing a smashed-up, PARTIALLY cooked, intensively farmed, commercially available chicken with fermenting beer is going to be a severe case of food poisoning and anything from 7 to 14 days unable to move more than 6 feet away from a toilet.


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## crinos (22/10/09)

Budget cock and oat beer recipe:

Ingredients:
wild oats
cock
20L water

1) Using the cock, sow the wild oats in sufficient quantities to accumulate enough yeast for the brew
2) Add wild oats and yeast to water
3) Steep cock in fermenter for 30 mins

Notes: Remember to only use cock in your beer PRE-BOIL. Some cocks have been all over the place, and you never know whats on them.


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## JonnyAnchovy (22/10/09)

Jonathon said:


> Iv'e heard of Dick n Cider, but Cock that's new..


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## beerbrewer76543 (22/10/09)

penis

edit: I just learned the art of single entendres


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## moska (3/11/09)

Hi all,

I have been hanging around this forum since i have been brewing but have never joined as alot of the conversations going back and forth were a tad too advanced for myself. But upon reading this post this morning, i had to join and throw my 2c in.

On my last trip to the UK to visit family and for a wedding i was introduced to traditional scrumpy down Sommerset way and I actually quite liked it

I asked what it was made of and told "apples and things you dont want to know about" which i took to be a jibe as i was considered a Grokkle(tourist) much like our drop bears etc. I pushed further and was told the process which to my horror included Various meat products. I again thought they were having a go but the inn keeper who was my uncles childhood friend then asked if i would like to see for myself as they processed all their own cider and a few ales on site.
To cut a long story short i witnessed two things. 1) a barrel being emptied of dregs for re use and from the barrel strips of gray material maybe the size of 2 fingers coming out(told it was meat although i still did not believe it) and 2) a fresh lot being made which to my horror included chunks of cut meat being thrown in. 

Apparently as all the cider is OPEN fermented(all wild yeast through barrel hole? which remains off all process) and the meat helps preserve and STOP infection in some way as it dissolves and shrinks in on itself
Im no expert , it sounds ridiculous and if i had not seen it with my own eyes i would not believe it but there you go. I did not find out what meat it was as i was in shock but i will email my uncle and see if he knows.

Anyways hope that has broken the myth for a few ppl


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## JonnyAnchovy (3/11/09)

"Often a leg of mutton was thrown into the barrel, or sometimes the cock's throat was slit and blood was poured in"

http://www.thecornishcyderfarm.co.uk/cyder.htm


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## Tim (3/11/09)

Apparently some of the older 'craft' producers in sommerset throw in road kill. There has been some discussion about this on the cider digest and cider workshop email lists. It probably explains why a lot of UK 'craft' cider tastes like absolute sh!t, but then some of it s really good. 

So basically in the UK traditionally they did throw chickens into cider, butsome traditions such as this and Morris dancing are best left in the past.


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## altone (3/11/09)

MHB said:


> Try searching for "Cocked Ale", it was allegedly practiced in Wales and Cornwall, tho I suspect it might have been talked about more than actually done perhaps to keep the visiting English away from the better ales.
> 
> There is a tribe in the Andes Mountains of Peru who inoculate their beer with the faeces of babies (before they are weened) tests show it contains a very pure yeast culture.
> 
> ...



Where's your sense of adventure man?

I think the woman up the road is still breastfeeding, now how should I approach this :unsure: :lol:


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## Guest Lurker (3/11/09)

Badboy said:


> L As someone who has had a severe case of gastroentiritus caused by campylobacter please let me assure you that a good dose of gastro caused by either of these bacteria is going to make you wish you were dead.



I spent a week with campylobacter, and if there is any chance of getting that from this cider approach, then I wouldnt go anywhere near it, cos it really does make you wish you were dead, although it is also a good way to lose 6 kg.


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## JonnyAnchovy (3/11/09)

Guest Lurker said:


> although it is also a good way to lose 6 kg.



Think you're on to a marketing opportunity - the next miracle non-surgery solution to obesity; carcass juice.

May need to work a little on the branding.....


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## fraser_john (3/11/09)

Good timing this thread.

Had a few beers with some homebrewers I met for the first time Friday night, one of them (the oldest) professed (at the prodding of the others) to having made chook-ale where the bones of a roast chicken had been thrown into the boil and left in with the ferment.


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## manticle (3/11/09)

I'll eat my words but I won't be running to drink a dead chook cider.

If a traditional brewer in a traditional brewery gave me some to try, I'd have a crack but not at home. Interesting idea about the fining qualities and the resistance to infection mentioned by two different posters.


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## Infinitee (9/11/09)

It doesn't surprise me that newborn-babies faeces is used.

I've used bird-shit before and it is an excellent and very available source of both nutrient and yeasts.

I'd only throw a whole bird in the fermenter if it was a BIG fermenter and if the bird was home-grown, so I could have some degree of quality control.

Or you could just chuck some blood and bone in your wort (pressure cook if your anal about these things).

I wouldn't count out animal parts from the homebrew scene just yet, lads.

(@L_Bomb: Haha :lol: Champion!)


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## reviled (10/11/09)

Infinitee said:


> It doesn't surprise me that newborn-babies faeces is used.
> 
> I've used bird-shit before and it is an excellent and very available source of both nutrient and yeasts.



:blink: Come again??? :unsure:


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## Mantis (10/11/09)

Oh my

:icon_vomit:


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## Infinitee (10/11/09)

Of course, saliva is also a ready source of yeasts and enzymes ... useful in scant-brewing (S. American beverage called chicha uses chewed corn kernels as a base)
Wiki on Chicha Preparation

For anyone who's actually interested in the topic and not just throwing criticism and emoticons around...


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## Henno (10/11/09)

I think you'd end up with this:




I knew I'd get to use it eventually


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## boingk (10/11/09)

Ooh, feeling queasy.

Must...focus on...Mantis' avatar...

There, all better


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## Mantis (10/11/09)

boingk said:


> Ooh, feeling queasy.
> 
> Must...focus on...Mantis' avatar...
> 
> There, all better



She is glad to be of service :lol:


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## King Brown (11/11/09)

"cock ale: take a cock of half a year old, kill him and truss him well, and put into a cask 12 gallons of ale to which add 4lbs raisins of the sun well picked, stoned, washed and dryed; dates 1/2lb; nutmeggs and mace 2oz. Infuse the dates and spices in a quart of canary 24 hours, then boil the cock in a manner of jelly, till a gallon of water is reduced to two quarts: then press the body of him extremely well, and put the liquor in to the cask where the ale is, with the spices and fruit, adding a few blades of mace: then put to it a pint of new ale yeast, let it work well for a day, and, in two days you may broach it for use, or, in hot weather the second day; and if it proves too strong, you may add more plain ale to palliate this restorative drink which contributes much to the invigorating of nature."

Taken from a collection of old english recipes from 1580 to 1850, mostly for food dishes but the book also has recipes for metheglin (spiced mead) and Wassail (neither of which contain any cock!)


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## bconnery (11/11/09)

King Brown said:


> " Infuse the dates and spices in a quart of canary 24 hours,



Canaries are pretty small aren't they?. Wouldn't you need quite a few for a quart?


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## brettprevans (11/11/09)

i dont beleive this thread is still going. ok so some stuff in history is worth taking note of in brewing. some stuff we should disregard. like this disgusting line of thinking. i mean really.... dead animals in beer :icon_vomit: they used to burn people at the stake, drink water thru lead pipes, etc etc that doesnt mean we should do it now.

im all for ressurecting old brewing methods, ingredients etc (I love Radical Brewing by Mosher) but only when it makes sense.


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## Muggus (11/11/09)

I'm not too suprised about chicken being used in beer.
How about isinglass? People seem happy enough to chuck that in their beer!


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## King Brown (12/11/09)

I would say it would have helped to fine the beer, and possibly it was some old tonic that blurred the line between an ale and a hearty meat broth... Im wouldnt actually want to try it, but it is interesting to read up on some of these very archaic brewing practices.


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## manticle (24/12/10)

Slight thread ressurection but I just read a section in 'making the best apple cider' by Annie Proulx which talks about an old habit of throwing meat into cider.

She recommends against it but suggests the reason it was done was it is a supply of nitrogen which helped the yeast with nutrients. She suggests it was usually done to kick off a stalled fermentation and that proper yeast nutrient is a much better, healthier source.


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## [email protected] (24/12/10)

This was doing the rounds in the Sydney Morning Herald's Column8 a couple of months back. I can't remember the outcome of it though


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