# Yeast Book By White And Jamil - Discussion Thread



## Bribie G (2/1/11)

As we still don't have a yeast thread, <_< posting here.





I guess by now a lot of members will have their paws on this excellent book and will have got well into reading it. It's been a big wake up call for me, and has really steered a lot of my ideas back on course - and I can see why some of my previous drinkable but underwhelming brews ran off the rails. For me the three big flashes of insight are, so far:

_Stationary Phase (Three to Ten Days)
At this point, yeast growth slows down and the yeast enter into a stationary phase. The yeast have already produced most of the flavor and aroma compounds, which include fusel alcohols, esters, and sulfur compounds.........._

Temperature 24 degrees on day 2? Nah never mind I'll just chuck another ice bottle under the doonah with it, she'll sort out over the next 24 hours - plenty of time ......... FAIL  ....... from now on I'm a temperature Nazi 

_One thing many brewers have been led to believe is that higher mash temperatures resut in "maltier" beers, By this they mean that the beer has more malt sweetness ... The long-chain dextrins created at high mash temperatures are at most only very slightly sweet. It is possible to brew two beers........... yet the beer with the higher finishing gravity tastes drier than the second beer... there are many [other] factors..... _

Lets whack out this mild at 71 for a rich malty sweetness .... FAIL  ...... Sticking to mid range mashes now

Oxygen (too many examples to type here) - in the lag phase the available oxygen is used up normally in first 12 hours, and most home brewers don't oxygenate enough, but extra oxygen can be added at around 12 hours when the cells have been able to divide at least once...

FAIL  ... I used to beat my 1469 and Ringwood like a British Nanny as Butters would say, for the first three days, in the mistaken belief that those yeasts require aerating and rousing. Now I'll just beat at 12 hours for a second dose of oxygen and just rely on swirling to keep the 1469 mixed in as it's a flocculating issue, _*not *_an oxygenating one.


So what have other members so far taken away from this awesome new source?


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## Barry (2/1/11)

The main point so far (there are so many) is the use of more than one type of yeast for some beers. For example pitching a saison yeast into a saison, then later a kolsch yeast to get the high ADA wanted. Also a a wheat yeast and a lager yeast for a weizenbock.
Gives me some new ideas for 2011.


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## bradsbrew (2/1/11)

Where can we get this book Bribie? Looks like a good read.


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## manticle (2/1/11)

Book depository and amazon both stock it. Mine arrived a few days ago so just making my way slowly through.


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## Bribie G (2/1/11)

bradsbrew said:


> Where can we get this book Bribie? Looks like a good read.



Book Depository UK

Free delivery - now the hols are over it should arrive within a week.


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## bradsbrew (2/1/11)

manticle said:


> Book depository and amazon both stock it. Mine arrived a few days ago so just making my way slowly through.






BribieG said:


> Book Depository UK
> 
> Free delivery - now the hols are over it should arrive within a week.



Cheers might just have to purchase my first brewing book.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (2/1/11)

It is a top read and well worth keeping as a reference. I have read it once and have started second time around. If you only take on half the knowledge then you are 100% in front. I found the setting up a yeast lab to be of the most interest. 
GB


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## felten (2/1/11)

got mine earlier this week, only read the intro so far


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## Gout (2/1/11)

Guys i found this for $16.98 at the following link. ( never bought from them before but i have ordered it.

http://www.betterworldbooks.com/yeast-id-0937381969.aspx


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## enuun (2/1/11)

I am a regular at betterworld. They fund child literacy programs worldwide so you are doing a good deed each time u get a book!


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## clarkey7 (2/1/11)

Haven't started reading mine yet.....

Hopefully there are many more insights.... :unsure: as all those points have been discussed at length by the 2 authors on the Brewstrong Podcasts and been assimilated and tucked away in my brain somewhere already.

I'm sure it'll be a case of everyone getting something different from a great resource....

Due to other distractions I'm only a few pages into Tasting Beer by Randy Mosher...I'll let you know when I'm done reading that how it went.

Happy reading....

PB


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## ianh (2/1/11)

Thanks for the heads up, just ordered mine.

Looking for books then check

booko.com.au

does a price comparison between a number of sites and Aussie stores


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## RdeVjun (2/1/11)

Sounds like there's some challenging ideas in that book BribieG.
On temperature, I couldn't agree more. After I changed to chilling wort to fermentation temp in the fridge before pitching rather than just accepting what ever it was at (usually >20C) at pitching and then beginning the controlled refrigeration, I found many of the undesirable characteristics that had plagued so many batches were largely eliminated, particularly for lagers.


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## Jazzafish (2/1/11)

This is a great book, some serious information that will go a long way to making better beer. It may seem a bit full on for new brewers - especially chapter 2 - but that said take it all in. Very valuable information.

So far the main thing I got out of this book is a reason why I have not been successful in reusing yeast beyond 3 fermentations at home... by that I mean starters get to the point where they have changed their profile (esters/flocculation) enough for me to loose confidence in pitching it. 

So thanks to this book, I know I need more oxygen before fermenting to allow for better health in future generations.


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## felten (4/1/11)

After reading more of this I think it's really a fantastic resource for beginners, not just experienced brewers, if everyone started out with this book I think you'd see a distinct drop in traffic to the forums because it clears up a vast amount of issues that people have with making beer. 

It also corrects many homebrewer myths like racking early in fermentation for a cleaner beer, and why it's a bad idea especially if you want to harvest the yeast. And pitching temperatures, why you want to start the yeasts lag phase at a lower temperature than the main body of the ferment. The starter and yeast propogation section is really handy as well.

I'd highly recommend that new brewers buy this book, even more so than how to brew!


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## manticle (4/1/11)

felten said:


> It also corrects many homebrewer myths like racking early in fermentation for a cleaner beer, and why it's a bad idea especially if you want to harvest the yeast.



Hi Felten,

I am particularly interested in this bit and what they had to say on it - looked up yesterday in the index for 'racking', 'transfer' and 'secondary' - couldn't find anything.

As I've mentioned here - I usually rack before FG and have perceived a difference. However my other techniques have also changed so I'm really interested in the perspective in the book.

Two recent beers have only been racked to bulk prime (something I don't normally do) and so far I haven't noticed the yeasty taste I've associated with non-racked beers. Time will tell.

Anyway can you tell me where the section is that discusses it? I've read the first 80 or 90 pages and hope I haven't inadvertently missed it.

Cheers


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## felten (4/1/11)

I've been searching for it as well, the index wasn't much help, but I can't find the exact passage I was thinking of. It doesn't help that I've read random sections and skipped others :wacko:

There is a few places where it mentions something along these lines "If you are reusing your yeast and harvesting too early, you may be putting selective pressure on the population, causing underattenuation, the yeast that drop first are the least attenuative of the population."


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## manticle (4/1/11)

I remember that bit but that was to do with harvesting rather than racking. It was also suggested around the same part that harvesting from secondary would give up undesirable yeast cells and unwanted debris (from memory - will have another look).

I was hoping for a section dedicated to discussing transfer to get off dead cells and trub while the yeast are still working which people discuss so often.

I'll re-read that section anyway then keep reading. A lot to be digested and considered in terms of my own brewing.


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## felten (4/1/11)

It seems that p. 69 is the page I was referring to, it's not as conclusive as I thought earlier, my mistake. 

"The traditional homebrewer advice to 'wait 7 days and transfer' is not the best advice. Different beers and different yeasts have different requirements." it goes on to say that you should leave the beer to clear naturally, and at the top it mentions that the yeast are still absorbing the diacetyl and acetaldehyde. Though it doesn't specifically say this on the page, but I did assume that the more yeast in the beer, the better it will be at maturing.

I guess it's still a contentious issue, but if the results work for you, it's hard to argue with that.


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## manticle (4/1/11)

Worked for me up till now but as mentioned I'm trying it the other way around at the moment. Either way as a bottler I have to either rack early or rack to bulk prime or I end up with loads of sediment in each bottle.

Definitely agree 'ferment 7 days then transfer is bad advice'. Ferment x number of days is always bad advice in my opinion. Beer (and yeast) don't work according to days.

The more _healthy_ yeast the better for sure - the debate has been about the dead/unhealthy stuff and whether there's enough of it to warrant homebrewers transferring. Transferring has other benefits too.

I'll be surprised if they don't discuss secondary transfer at some point though. Maybe I'll search for 'autolysis'.

Cheers for looking.


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## proudscum (4/1/11)

For me like a lot of brewing texts i read from the page it falls open to get a feel for the book.then i have a serious read,but so far starting out with a pitching temp lower than the ideal works for me and letting the yeast come up to ideal over 12 to 24 hours also the idea of using 2 yeasts to achieve a desired result is something to try.

a book i will keep coming back to over time.


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## Effect (4/1/11)

damn...I need this book!


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## jonocarroll (4/1/11)

Ordered from BookDepository 8/12 - still waiting... damn holidays.

Keeps looking better and better.


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## wobblythongs (5/1/11)

Must be a fascinating book did the talk about how to pump the most amount of oxygen in to a wort?


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## jonocarroll (5/1/11)

QuantumBrewer said:


> Ordered from BookDepository 8/12 - still waiting... damn holidays.


Heh. Complain once and voila! A good read so far.


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## peted27 (8/1/11)

im half way through this book, reading it front to back. its a great read. a lot of it is beyond me, especially when its talking about enzymes and what not..... but its still interesting. 


guess what ive taken away so far is that i havnt really given yeast teh respect it deserves. under oxygenating the wort before pitching (not likely to change in the near future, but im aware of it)... and just lots of other little things.

i have probably read most of the important points on this forum before, but for some reason it seems more credible coming from a book (anyone read the bible lately?).....


definitely a must


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## dpadden (8/1/11)

peted27 said:


> im half way through this book, reading it front to back. its a great read. a lot of it is beyond me, especially with so many words instead of pictures



We understand Pete, go and have a rest :icon_cheers:


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## peted27 (8/1/11)

Paddo said:


> We understand Pete, go and have a rest :icon_cheers:



i feel as though you twisted my words. lol. i hated biology..... who knew brewing had so much


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## carniebrew (18/1/13)

Necro thread bump...anyone ever get this as an e-book? If so, from where? No luck finding it so far online.


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## Amber Fluid (18/1/13)

A great book to read from cover to cover and also a great book to use as a reference book. I usually do not read books and have not read a book such as this since grade 7 and that was in 1983, yet I have read this book several times. I highly recommend it.


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## jayahhdee (18/1/13)

I've got this sitting on the book shelf in my beer/brewing collection but still haven't got around to giving it a good read, as soon as this good weather finishes I'll tackle it I think.


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## stux (19/1/13)

After two Christmases of hints I finally recieved this as a gift 

Looking forward to reading it


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## carniebrew (19/1/13)

I've had no luck finding it as an ebook. I hate buying paper books these days, it feels so....ummm....2012. Just seems to make so much sense environmentally to buy ebooks...no printing, no shipping, no handling. Book usually costs less for the buyer, but the author gets the same amount.

Anyway, i've found it on Fishpond, so unless anyone wants to recycle their copy by selling it to me, I guess i'll kill a few more trees next week some time...


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## Thefatdoghead (7/2/13)

carniebrew said:


> I've had no luck finding it as an ebook. I hate buying paper books these days, it feels so....ummm....2012. Just seems to make so much sense environmentally to buy ebooks...no printing, no shipping, no handling. Book usually costs less for the buyer, but the author gets the same amount.
> 
> Anyway, i've found it on Fishpond, so unless anyone wants to recycle their copy by selling it to me, I guess i'll kill a few more trees next week some time...


I'd never sell my hard copy! iv'e read it twice and im going for a third this time away at sea. Makes me fantasise about having a yeast lab and growing my own yeast, then I think about having my own brewery. I wish! 
The only thing I don't get with the book is yeast cell count. Acording to the book and mr malty I under pitch by half the yeast I need but with most of my beers I get active ferment which is done in less than a week, talking Lagers that is. No problems with Diasetyl or any other faults etc. Makes me wonder if they are trying to just sell there yeast?


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## spog (8/2/13)

*i hav'nt read my copy (autographed by both authors,((puts nose in the air and sniffs)).yet.*
*i listened to a podcast about the next book in the series which is about hops.the next one is about water,then grain,making a 4 book reference library.*
*a handy lot to have in the brewery....cheers...spog....*


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## jayahhdee (8/2/13)

The book on hops "For the love of Hops" has been released just ordered myself a copy.


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## ian ulrick (8/2/13)

Thanks for the heads up Spog. Hops ordered.


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## Amber Fluid (8/2/13)

Obviously "For The Love Of Hops" is not by the same authors and appears Stan Hieronymus is the man.

http://www.bookdepository.com/For-Love-Hops-Stan-Hieronymus/9781938469015?utm_medium=api&amp;utm_campaign=usbooko&amp;a_aid=booko&amp;utm_term=9781938469015&amp;utm_source=book_link&amp;utm_content=For-the-Love-of-Hops

$16.96 with free delivery is about the cheapest I can find.


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## Bribie G (8/2/13)

Brewed up my first lager in ages so I decided to do a pukkah lager starter from a Wyeast smack pack. Guess what book I dragged out for the occasion.


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## mje1980 (9/2/13)

I just grabbed this book on amazon. Hopefully an interesting read!


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## jimi (9/2/13)

Bribie G said:


> Brewed up my first lager in ages so I decided to do a pukkah lager starter from a Wyeast smack pack. Guess what book I dragged out for the occasion.


Hi Bribie,
I haven't yet got the book, do you mind me asking what alterations the yeast book has inspired in your starters?


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## Bribie G (9/2/13)

I bought the yeast book at the same time as I attended the Brisbane Conference a couple of years ago and also got some good expanded information from the lecture by the Whitelabs guy who was flown over for the day. Two best tips I got were:

With a starter you are looking for yeast multiplication, not fermentation. If you get a nice krausen on top of your starter, the yeast has stopped reproducing and started actively fermenting, so you've not achieved what you were looking for. That's why it's a good idea to keep your starter wort around 1040.

Don't be tempted to pour the whole thing into your brew as quickly as possible, let it use up the fermentables then drop out until you get a nice layer on the bottom, pour off the waste liquid then put the _yeast_ in your brew. You don't want the waste liquid which, if you have made on LDME isn't going to do your brew any favours.


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## Spiesy (9/2/13)

good book, I'm about 3/4 of the way through...


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## Lecterfan (23/7/14)

I just thought I'd bump this thread.

I heartily endorse experimentation and trying this and that and the other etc etc. It's all good practice and what not, but at the end of the day there are some fairly basic 'suggested guidelines' (not rules) for making consistently good beer with controllable variables and relatively predictable outcomes.

This book has 304 or so pages, and even the most inexperienced home brewer should be able to look up the index and pull out some very basic information.

We make the wort, the yeast makes the beer. With some very rare exceptions, our lab-developed, homogenous, specific-condition/nutrient/temperature loving yeast won't often just spontaneously make us a decent beer with decent flavours and decent attenuation through good will alone. 

Happy brewing to all.
:icon_chickcheers:


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## warra48 (23/7/14)

It's a good book with lots of very good information. I also found it a good read.

The only criticism I have is that it has almost nothing dealing with dry yeast. I guess that's predictable, seeing as one of the authors is the head of a liquid yeast producer.


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## mje1980 (23/7/14)

I think it's pretty good.


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## Yob (23/7/14)

the freezing yeast section could also have been greatly expanded on... but yep, a great book and one I probably need to flick through again.


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