# Mash Out? what does this mean?



## Steve0408 (19/1/14)

Hi
This may be a silly question but what is meant by the term Mash out, I'm preparing to do my 1st AG brew and I want to use a recipe from brew smith.

It tells me to "Mash in" 12.83L of water @ 68c the step time is 45 mins then it tells me to "Mash out" 5.13L of water @ 75c. it goes on to say fly sparge 16L of water

I read this to mean add 12.83L of water to my mash tun @ 68c and let it mash for 45 mins. then im a little lost as to the term mash out, is it as simple as removing 5L of wort in to the boil kettle then trickling another 16L of hot water through the mash and in to the boil kettle. Or do I reheat this 5L I removed?

Am I on the right track or destined to make 23L of murky water?


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## DU99 (19/1/14)

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter17.html


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## adryargument (19/1/14)

Whack the deg's upto 75 for a yonder of a time (75 shakes of a lambs tail), then sparge into yo tinnay.


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## Steve0408 (19/1/14)

Thanks DU99 so im to add 5L of water to the mash tun @ 75c and mash for a further 10 Mins before draining and rinseing with a further 12L of water at 68c.


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## adryargument (19/1/14)

No, mashout at 75c then sparge with 75c. I generally sparge with 80c as i lose a few degs while pumping etc.


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## Pokey (19/1/14)

I do BIAB so I'm not entirely familiar with the terminology but it looks like you need to add an additional 5.13 litres of water at 75 degrees! this will raise the mash temperature to the mash out temperature. Then you'd recirculate the wort through the grain bed till it runs clear, then sparge with the additional 16 litres of water.
My understanding is that fly sparging is more difficult than batch sparging as well.


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## TheWiggman (19/1/14)

How is your system set up? I assume your meant BeerSmith - did you enter the details of the grain bill yourself or did you copy it off someone else? I think you have a few questions to ask yourself -

Did you enter all the volumes of your system into BeerSmith to allow for losses?
Have you allowed for an extra few degrees for 'strike temp' when you put the grain in?
Can your system allow you to fly sparge?
How much do you want in the fermentation vessel at the end of it?
For my first brew I entered the grain bill and just made what BeerSmith spat out. It has a few default details like mash temp and step time, and so the volumes will match that. I didn't really do it right as a result and have changed my approach a bit since then.

Most people on here mash out at 78°C (correct me if I'm wrong) by raising the temp in the mash tun or their HERMS/RIMS control system. And judging by your volumes you have a total of 33l of water. For 4kg of grain you'll have about 28l in the boiler and after the boil will have just over 23l. With additional loss from tub in the boiler, you may only end up with 21l in the fermenter. 

You'll want to cover the following -

Double-check your 'mash in' volume. 12.83 litres is low. Are you doing a wheat? If not, aim for about 16-18 litres for a standard 23l brew.
Assuming your have a kettle, change the volume in the 'mash out step' from 5.13 to 0 in the mash tab in BeerSmith.
Temp of the water before putting the grain in (strike temp) will need to be higher than the saccrification temp (the main temp you want to hold it at for the mash). Do this on the day in BeerSmith by adding the ambient temp, amount of grain, and grain temp in the 'Mash' section of the recipe. A strike temp of 68°C will mean a saccrification rest temp of 64-66°C depending on the day.
Ensure you have allowed for losses in the mash tun, boiler and fermenter for your final volume. It's not critical, but if you're targeting 30 longnecks then you might struggle.
Sparge method. Batch sparing is much simpler for the first go and many experienced brewers still do it. I tried fly sparging but now batch sparge.
After the saccrification rest, drain all liquor from the mash tun into the boiler
Add 78°C water to the mash tun according to BeerSmith (probably 21.13l now)
Let it sit for 20mins
Drain contents into the boiler until you reach your pre-boil gravity

A mash out step is not necessarily required as per the link DU99 provided. Probably best to keep it simple for your first go unless you have a flashy system you want to try out.
Provide your recipe and you'll probably get lots of good advice on what to change for your first go. Don't worry, it won't be murky water.


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## Steve0408 (19/1/14)

Thanks Wingman
Yes I did mean Beer Smith sorry for the confusion, I'm aiming for a fermentable wort of 23L this is the goal. My equipment is 40L mash tun, 40L boil kettle and 2L second kettle to top up with.

I was unsure if the 40L mash tun should or could hold the whole Mash volume in one go? yet to be proven.

Clearly I need to understand BeerSmith and its variable settings a little better before I attempt my first brew.


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## Bribie G (19/1/14)

Pokey said:


> I do BIAB so I'm not entirely familiar with the terminology but it looks like you need to add an additional 5.13 litres of water at 75 degrees! this will raise the mash temperature to the mash out temperature. Then you'd recirculate the wort through the grain bed till it runs clear, then sparge with the additional 16 litres of water.
> My understanding is that fly sparging is more difficult than batch sparging as well.


I do full volume BIAB and I mash out, simply a case of keeping the bag off the element or the bottom of the pot and stirring as you ramp up to 78. Stops the enzyme activity and makes the wort a bit runnier for a tad more extraction, so they say.


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## mkstalen (19/1/14)

You need a bigger 2nd kettle for you spare water. 

Sent from my Samsung S3 using Tapatalk.


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## Steve0408 (19/1/14)

Sorry that,s 20L not 2


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## boybrewer (19/1/14)

Mashout means you raise the mash temp to 75* C . This is required to stop the starch converting to sugar ( or as Brbie said ). To achieve this the water that you pour into the mash tun must be hot enough to raise the temp to 75* C . The system you have means the water you are adding to the tun would have to be boiling and you still wont be able to reach the required temp of 75*C . With the 5lt of water added you may be able to reach your mash in temp . If you want to reach the mash out temp you can always take approx 1/3 of your mash out of the tun together with most of your wort and heat it up to 75*C hold that for 10 min and then bring it to the boil stirring all the time so as not to burn the grain on the bottom of the pot and then pour it back into the mash . This will get you up to mash out . The Germans call it a decoction . Or as I said before step 1: add the 5lt of boiling water stir it through wait 10 min and then recirculate until the wort runs clear , drain all of the wort and then pour in your sparge water of around 80* C this will get your mash temp up a little higher stir and repeat step 1 wait 10 min recirculate and drain . If you don't have enough wort for the boil repeat step 1. This is called batch sparging. Fly sparging is when you have equal liquid into the mash tun and equal liquid out of the mash tun into your boil kettle at the same time. Or you can read John Palmer . What area of Melbourne do you live in ?


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## manticle (19/1/14)

A lot of the above is good advice but I see it as possibly confusing for a new player.

Mash out means to raise the temperature of the mash to a point where the enzymes responsible for starch conversion are denatured and no longer convert.

78-80 degrees is a good point to aim for (temperature of the mash itself).

In many cases it isn't necessary unless you are doing a complicated step mash and controlling those enzymes very specifically. Hotter water may help rinse some sugars off the grains and increase efficiency though.


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## Bizier (20/1/14)

I thought it was what kids do when they have too many disco biscuits.


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## mje1980 (20/1/14)

I never mash out, if you don't, it just means you'll convert more sugars while you sparge.


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## fletcher (20/1/14)

Bribie G said:


> I do full volume BIAB and I mash out, simply a case of keeping the bag off the element or the bottom of the pot and stirring as you ramp up to 78. Stops the enzyme activity and makes the wort a bit runnier for a tad more extraction, so they say.


bribie, how long does this often take for a 20-23L batch size, and does this necessarily interfere/assist/whatever with the beer profile?

EDIT: re-phrasing


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## Liam_snorkel (20/1/14)

read this post by member Thirsty Boy: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/54273-rack-for-biab-any-ideas/page-2#entry897732


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## Steve0408 (20/1/14)

Thanks Beer Belly
I feel your recommendation is easy to do and I think I will give that a go


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## boybrewer (20/1/14)

Your welcome . What part of Melbourne do you live in ?


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## Bizier (21/1/14)

mje1980 said:


> I never mash out, if you don't, it just means you'll convert more sugars while you sparge.


So, you seek thin beer. You will only be changing your fermentability profile toward thinner beer, rather than converting additional starch.
Actually, via a mash out, with a rest at low 70s, you will free a very small additional amount of starch for conversion.


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## mje1980 (21/1/14)

My original comment was probably vague, I meant to say that you'll only keep converting til end of sparge, but I don't believe it would be a massive amount, which is why I never do a mash out.


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## mje1980 (21/1/14)

Hope to be brewing a mild tomorrow so I'll try one and see if it's different from the other countless milds I've made without a mash out.


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## flano (21/1/14)

what's that old saying?
Ask 10 home brewers the same question and you'll get 11 different answers.


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## Bribie G (21/1/14)

12 more likely

In my case I do full volume BIAB in an urn. I'm going to be running the urn up to boiling anyway, so I may as well get a mashout "for free" by doing the first part of the "ramp up" with the grain still in the bag and stirring well with a paint stirrer. Depending on what the final main mash temperature was (say 65 degrees) it only takes me about ten minutes, if that, to get to 78 degrees. Then leave for 10 mins, switch urn back on and raise bag.


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## mje1980 (21/1/14)

I'm trying one today, though I'm using Munich as my base instead of Maris, so it will be different anyway. Trying 2 short rests at low and high 60's, to get Fermentable but nice and malty. See what happens.


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## Liam_snorkel (21/1/14)

Bribie G said:


> Then leave for 10 mins,


why rest at 78?


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## Parks (21/1/14)

Liam_snorkel said:


> why rest at 78?


78 is my mash-out temp.


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## Liam_snorkel (21/1/14)

What I meant was why rest it at mashout temp when doing BIAB? Surely all the good work was done in the ramp.


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## Bribie G (21/1/14)

Just getting a bit of a "grain bed" happening for 10 mins.


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## Liam_snorkel (21/1/14)

cheers. Do you (personally) still squeeze?


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## jacknohe (21/1/14)

Bribie G said:


> 12 more likely
> 
> In my case I do full volume BIAB in an urn. I'm going to be running the urn up to boiling anyway, so I may as well get a mashout "for free" by doing the first part of the "ramp up" with the grain still in the bag and stirring well with a paint stirrer. Depending on what the final main mash temperature was (say 65 degrees) it only takes me about ten minutes, if that, to get to 78 degrees. Then leave for 10 mins, switch urn back on and raise bag.


I perform a mashout in the Urn as well. Colander over the sealed element in my crown for extra safety. All good.


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## Bribie G (21/1/14)

Liam_snorkel said:


> cheers. Do you (personally) still squeeze?


Lookin for some action, sailor?



Yes, can't stand wasting recoverable wort.


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## lukiferj (21/1/14)

Bribie G said:


> Just getting a bit of a "grain bed" happening for 10 mins.


What purpose does a "grain bed" serve if you are going to hoist the bag out anyway and disturb it. Understand why ramping up to mash out is important but just curious about the grain bed. 

And I also squeeze.


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## Bribie G (21/1/14)

My block and tackle setup lets me raise the bag very slowly, and I seem to get less chicken soup in the urn than my old _"hoist as quickly as I can and pray my muscles don't give out"_ method when I just had a single pulley system.

So I'm convinced there is a grain bed of sorts forming, as the wort runs clear very quickly, and even when gently squeezing by "massaging" the bag downwards so the wort gets squeezed through this "grain bed" I don't seem to squeeze out much soup at all.


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## Liam_snorkel (21/1/14)

Might give that a go, see if it yields a bit less trub than usual. Also allows time to knock back a beer between pumping the mash & squeezing. Win win.


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## lukiferj (21/1/14)

Cheers Bribie. I still use good old fashioned muscle to lift the bag but I do have a hook to hang it off. I find the wort is pretty clear until I start squeezing but I do get better efficiency when I do. I might give the 10 mins a go too and see what I notice.


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## Steve0408 (22/1/14)

beer belly said:


> Your welcome . What part of Melbourne do you live in ?


In in Roxburghpark


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## Goose (23/1/14)

mje1980 said:


> My original comment was probably vague, I meant to say that you'll only keep converting til end of sparge, but I don't believe it would be a massive amount, which is why I never do a mash out.


ceasing conversion is not a reason for me to mashout because I usually target maximum conversion. I do it though because

1) to improve the sparging process
2) I have to heat the wort to 100 deg C anyway, so I see no harm in helping it along the way in a mashout step...

There is one further thought, I recall listening to a podcast a few years back where John Palmer was suggesting that enzymes that had not been denatured could be the cause of off flavours caused by hot side aeration / oxidation. Food for thought.


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## ricardo (23/1/14)

Goose said:


> ceasing conversion is not a reason for me to mashout because I usually target maximum conversion. I do it though because
> 
> 1) to improve the sparging process
> 2) I have to heat the wort to 100 deg C anyway, so I see no harm in helping it along the way in a mashout step...
> ...


Goose what kind of mash efficiency are you getting with the brew magic?


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## Goose (23/1/14)

ricardo said:


> Goose what kind of mash efficiency are you getting with the brew magic?


83-84%.


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