# No Chill bitterness effects?



## Edd (11/12/17)

I have just bottled my first NC batch and, wow, she’s bitter! Not in a sour or off tasting way (bar the mild plastic taste due, I think, to a brand new cube being used), the aroma is delicious (Galaxy finishing hops) but it’s very bitter. Could the use of a NC really produce such a significant effect? I didn’t notice any sign of infection and I have been very particular with cleaning and sanitising of all kit.

Hop addictions as follows

30g Cascade @ 60
45g Cascade @ 10
30g Cascade + 15g Galaxy @ 5
30g Cascade @ 0
45g Galaxy @ 3 days dry hop

There was a whirlfloc chucked in @ 10 also.


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## manticle (11/12/17)

As the wort stays hot longer (above about 80), you'll extract more bitterness from late additions. More an issue with something like your ipa above than say an alt for example.

You can look at moving all late additions to whirlpool or cube to reduce/fix. There are other methods, including reducing the size of your 60 min addition.


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## laxation (11/12/17)

You need to push everything back 15-20 minutes. For a recipe like the one you posted, I would do this:

30g Cascade @ 60
30g Cascade @ 0
75g Cascade + 15g Galaxy @ cube
45g Galaxy @ 3 days dry hop


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/12/17)

Edd said:


> I have just bottled my first NC batch and, wow, she’s bitter! Not in a sour or off tasting way (bar the mild plastic taste due, I think, to a brand new cube being used), the aroma is delicious (Galaxy finishing hops) but it’s very bitter. *Could the use of a NC really produce such a significant effect*? I didn’t notice any sign of infection and I have been very particular with cleaning and sanitising of all kit.



Yes

This has been discussed a million times on AHB

When we first started No-Chill ( some of us almost got burnt at the stake for daring to to mention it ) the first thing we noticed was the beer was more bitter

Eventually we worked out it was the extended time being hot that caused the extra bitternes, so basically you need to push everything back by 15-20mins , IE, reduce your addition times by 15-20mins

With NC a 0min addition ends up being a 15-20min addition


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## Edd (11/12/17)

Thanks for reply’s, I had seen some posts recommending the readjustment of hopping but also some to the contrary. I guess having now experienced it first hand I will be moving to the ‘readjustment’ camp for my next brew. The advised hop reschedule above looks well worth a try, thanks @laxation
It’s amazing how slight changes can have such a significant effect on the beer.


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## laxation (11/12/17)

I brewed two beers without adjusting and since moving it a few minutes, haven't looked back 
The non-adjusted beers were still good, but just more bitter as you picked up.

I haven't found a 0 minute addition to add a whole lot, but I'm not very picky and haven't made many of each. Be interesting to hear what others think of this addition


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## wide eyed and legless (11/12/17)

The thing about the extra bitterness is you learn to live with it, since changing to the Argon method I am missing the extra bitterness. Such is life.


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## Edd (11/12/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> The thing about the extra bitterness is you learn to live with it, since changing to the Argon method I am missing the extra bitterness. Such is life.


Cheers, but whats the 'Argon method' mate? Sounds serious.


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## Edd (11/12/17)

laxation said:


> I brewed two beers without adjusting and since moving it a few minutes, haven't looked back
> The non-adjusted beers were still good, but just more bitter as you picked up.
> 
> I haven't found a 0 minute addition to add a whole lot, but I'm not very picky and haven't made many of each. Be interesting to hear what others think of this addition


I'm throwing a brew down this weekend. I will slightly tweak the additions and see what comes out. Nice one.


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## wide eyed and legless (11/12/17)

Edd said:


> Cheers, but whats the 'Argon method' mate? Sounds serious.


https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/late-hopping-and-no-chilling-guide.55801/


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## TheSumOfAllBeers (11/12/17)

I regularly hit my IBU ceiling with no chill, especially with high alpha hops.


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## Bomber Rock (15/12/17)

I've done 3 all grain BIAB's now, all into no chill cubes. First 2 were kits, and the third a furphy clone based on a thread here. For whatever reason, the first, a pacific ale from Grain & Grape tasted as it should (I assume). The 2nd (a NZ Pilsner from Beer Co) treated a little too bitter than I think it should have, but was still a delight to drink.

The furphy clone, I tasted last night, even though it isn't fully carbonated yet. It is way too bitter. Don't get me wrong, I'll still drink it. Ironically, for brews 2 and 3, I adjusted the hops additions to factor in no chill. The other interesting point, the outside ambient temp was hotter for each batch I brewed, so perhaps each batch took that bit longer to drop below 80deg C?

What are everyone's thoughts on putting the no chill cube, once filled, into an ice bath to get the Temp below 80 as quick as possible?


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/12/17)

Bomber Rock said:


> What are everyone's thoughts on putting the no chill cube, once filled, into an ice bath to get the Temp below 80 as quick as possible?



Nothing wrong with that at all. A pool is even better


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## Rocker1986 (15/12/17)

I've found the last few APAs I've done have been a little over bittered as well, now I've been brewing NC for 5 years and only recently started noticing this issue, but I also have pretty much quit smoking this year so maybe the taste buds are a bit more sensitive to it than they used to be. 

I normally have either a 60 minute or first wort hop addition, then the rest from 10 minutes and below. On the most recent batch I decided to leave the late additions as normal and simply reduce the amount of the 60 minute addition to drop the IBUs down to the mid 30s instead of the 38-40 I have used up until now. I also employed a cube hop. This batch is due in the FV on either Sunday or Monday so I'll know how it worked out in about 3 weeks.


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## Bomber Rock (15/12/17)

Unfortunately, I don't have a pool, or the money to have one built. Will definitely give the ice bath a go next brew. 

Rocker, I should point out, I move my 15min additions to flame out and flame out to cube, but yeah, still quite bitter.


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## mattyh77 (15/12/17)

I've got one in the fermenter now where I didn't do a 60 min addition. Moved it to 30 and the rest at flameout. Dry hopping tomorrow. All with Simcoe. Will see if it's a little less bitter.


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## laxation (15/12/17)

Worth giving a go putting all the hops in the cube, not at flameout. I've loved beers made that way.
Edit* if you find FO still too bitter


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## peteru (15/12/17)

Bomber Rock said:


> Unfortunately, I don't have a pool, or the money to have one built.



One of those kids inflatable pools, filled with rain water from the tank could do the trick.

If you get a submersible pump, you might be able to have the water re-circulate. From water tank, running over the cube, into kiddie pool, then pumped back into water tank.


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## Rocker1986 (15/12/17)

I suppose I technically "move" additions as well but I just construct recipes with the NC effect in mind and list them where they're to be added. If I brewed someone else's recipe I'd do it as written first and then change things if needed if I brewed it again.


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## Edd (15/12/17)

mattyh77 said:


> I've got one in the fermenter now where I didn't do a 60 min addition. Moved it to 30 and the rest at flameout. Dry hopping tomorrow. All with Simcoe. Will see if it's a little less bitter.


Let us know how that bad boy goes, this is how I might go for the next one. Funnily enough when I put the hops into BeerSmith based on the recipe stated at start of thread the IBU is nearly 70 anyway. That’s pretty damn bitter, right? Looks a bit OTT for an APA by my reckoning. Shit, there’s so much to learn about this stuff!


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## manticle (15/12/17)

Better off leaving the 60 min but just reducing it. Any later additions are the ones you want to shift.


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## mattyh77 (15/12/17)

I got the idea of a brewing podcast who were interviewing and American craft brewing company. They were doing a few Brews with only 10 min and below additions. Will have to find it again.


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## Rocker1986 (16/12/17)

Not to say that moving 60 minute additions doesn't work, the point is more that no chilling has zero effect on them contributing any noticeable increase in bitterness.


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## TheSumOfAllBeers (16/12/17)

laxation said:


> Worth giving a go putting all the hops in the cube, not at flameout. I've loved beers made that way.
> Edit* if you find FO still too bitter



I do this and get some unexpected (good) results. You trap all the volatile aroma oils in the cube, more than a 80C steep.

100g of motueka in 55L cubes had a massive hop aroma in a Saison that I made. Good baseline IPA territory to be honest.


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## wide eyed and legless (16/12/17)

mattyh77 said:


> I got the idea of a brewing podcast who were interviewing and American craft brewing company. They were doing a few Brews with only 10 min and below additions. Will have to find it again.


Gordon Strong has done a few Beer Smith podcast's he does a beer with just flame out additions.


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## fdsaasdf (16/12/17)

As others suggest I usually reduce hop addition durations by 15 minutes in order to account for the additional bitterness no-chilling brings to late additions, or by 5 if I was pool-chilling. Most of the beers I brew are IPAs (US, session, black, red etc). 

However, earlier this year I started treating my water to account for chlorine and as a result I ended up with a sharp increase in perceived bitterness.

To address this I've kept up with treating the water but moved all hop additions to 15 minutes later even when pool chilling. This has worked well.

The only exception to this method was for my recent 5% session NEIPA - I didn't treat the water at all (to suppress bitterness) and just added 100g each of Simcoe and Citra to each cube, and a big dry hop of Cascade. The result is literally sweet citrus hop juice and the keg seems to be evaporating...


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## Dan Pratt (16/12/17)

^ with your pool chilling method;

How long in the cube before it goes into the pool?

How long does it take for the temp to drop to pool water temp?

Do you think it would be the same affect with water in a 44Gal drum?


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## Edd (16/12/17)

I tried a taste again today, to be honest the bitterness isn’t as bad as I was expecting. It’s actually quite refreshing in the mouth. However the beer feels thin, watery and lacking any obvious flavour. I mean you can detect a faint hoppiness but nothing as fruity as I would expect from the cascade and galaxy additions. Also there appears to be almost no maltiness or backbone to it. Could this be due to the skewed mash temperature? Along with the plastic taste from the new cube I would say it’s pretty un-drinkable! Bugger...


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## Edd (16/12/17)

To add to the above post, my thermometer was screwed so mash temp was approximately 6 higher than required. The fermentation stopped at 1.026 so it’s a 3% Beer!


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## Rocker1986 (16/12/17)

It should be the opposite of thin, watery and no maltiness if it finished at 1.026.


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## Edd (16/12/17)

Hmmm, the only other thing that I can think of is that my equip profile boil off rate is way too high. I did end up with about 4l more than anticipated, that won’t help.


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## Rocker1986 (16/12/17)

That won't cause the FG to be high though. Your mash temp being too high is the culprit there. The extra maltiness is probably suppressing the hops. But the lower the FG the more thin and watery the beer generally is, and vice versa.


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## Rocker1986 (16/12/17)

What was the mash temp?


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## Edd (16/12/17)

It was meant to be 68, in reality it would have been closer to 74-75.


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## Rocker1986 (16/12/17)

That certainly explains the high FG then.


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## Edd (16/12/17)

Learn the lessons, move onto next batch.


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## Rocker1986 (16/12/17)

Yep that's it. It shouldn't be tasting thin and watery though.


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## manticle (16/12/17)

If you mashed at 75 and have plastic tastes, you have a world of things to work out before worrying about shifting hop additions.

For new cubes, you can fill with boiling water, let cool, then taste the water. If it tastes like plastic, repeat the process until it doesn't.
Make sure all hoses are food grade silicon, not pvc or similar. 

For mash temp, invest in a good thermometer and a couple of spares. Check all in boiling, near freezing and somewhere in mash temp range and see if there's any discrepancy.


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## peteru (17/12/17)

And I would also question the fermentation too. Was your temp 6C higher there too, fermenting in high 20's?


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## Edd (17/12/17)

peteru said:


> And I would also question the fermentation too. Was your temp 6C higher there too, fermenting in high 20's?



Nope, it was under temp control at a steady 18.5, took off like a rocket but was pretty much steady at 1.026 after a week. I pitched more yeast and raised to 21 to try and bring it down a few points but nothing doing.


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## Dan Pratt (17/12/17)

how did you measure 1.026? Refractometer or hydrometer


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## fdsaasdf (17/12/17)

Dan Pratt said:


> ^ with your pool chilling method;
> 
> How long in the cube before it goes into the pool?
> 
> ...



I usually leave the cube on its side for at least 10 minutes before putting it in the pool.

Not sure of exact timing but overnight would be enough to drop to pool temp - I usually pull out once temps are in the 60s or 70s, usually just before I go to bed.

I imagine immersion in a 44 gallon drum of water would work well enough to drop below isomerisation temps in a few hours - with a vessel that size it should be pretty straightforward to approximately work out how long it would take 20L of 100degC wort to drop to a target temperature while immersed in 100 or 150L of ambient temp water. Of course there are many slightly complicating factors bout you should be able to do a rough calculation.


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## Rocker1986 (17/12/17)

I reckon it would drop a lot sooner than a few hours. Last brew day the wort was at 92 after its 20 minutes stand in the urn, and 88 by the time the transfer to the cube was done. I'd guess it probably dropped below 80 in under an hour after that.

Sent from my Agora 4G+ using Aussie Home Brewer mobile app


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## Edd (17/12/17)

Dan Pratt said:


> how did you measure 1.026? Refractometer or hydrometer



Hydrometer, I’ve checked it to 20c water and it’s pretty much on the nose.


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## laxation (17/12/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Gordon Strong has done a few Beer Smith podcast's he does a beer with just flame out additions.


it seems to be a big thing now, especially with the NEIPAs.... but just all late/dry hops and 15min "bittering" addition


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## Hez (18/12/17)

what if you remove the hops before the chilling / no-chilling part? :/


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## Rocker1986 (18/12/17)

Hez said:


> what if you remove the hops before the chilling / no-chilling part? :/


Nothing. The hops are already removed in no chilling because they get left behind in the kettle. 

In any case though, it's isomerisation of the alpha acids, they'll be in the wort regardless of the hops being removed or not.


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## Hez (18/12/17)

Rocker1986 said:


> Nothing. The hops are already removed in no chilling because they get left behind in the kettle.
> 
> In any case though, it's isomerisation of the alpha acids, they'll be in the wort regardless of the hops being removed or not.



http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf0481296?journalCode=jafcau
"The rate of isomerization of alpha acids to iso-alpha acids (the compounds contributing bitter taste to beer) was determined across a range of temperatures (90−130 °C) to characterize the rate at which iso-alpha acids are formed during kettle boiling."

mmmm I thought it had to do with other chemicals, I'm not sure if I understand why this is happening then... so the problem is from boiling to 90º??

In my last brew I did a 0' addition (@80º for 30'). As soon as the boil was over I chilled to 80ºC quite fast with the immersion chiller, did the 0' hop steep for 30' and then I continued to chill with the immesion chiller, ice and the pond pump. When it was around 40º I removed the hop socks (this time I used several small hop socks instead of the big hop spider) and I squeezed them into the kettle (sanitized hands). Then I chilled to 27ºC, moved to the fermentation fridge and went to the cinema. After the cinema and a beer in a cool pub (~4h), when I came back, it was already at 18ºC so I pitched the yeast and went to sleep happy with my brewday.
When I do a 0' hop addition (@80ºC for 30') I input 1' into the calculator to account for some approximation of the IBUs added (someone told me to do that in this forum, I don't remember who...)

What have I done wrong? What would you change? Will I have extra-non-accounted-bitterness because of this or not? :S


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## Rocker1986 (18/12/17)

If you're happy with how your beers are turning out, no need to change anything. If they're a bit too bitter then I'd be looking at reducing the hop amounts used in early boil additions or later boil additions if no early additions are made. I doubt you'll get much increase in IBU from an 80°C addition to make it over bittered.


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## laxation (18/12/17)

Rocker1986 said:


> Nothing. The hops are already removed in no chilling because they get left behind in the kettle.
> 
> In any case though, it's isomerisation of the alpha acids, they'll be in the wort regardless of the hops being removed or not.


except for cube hops! 
i don't get crazy bitterness though.

Hez, to test your IBUs for cube hops, you can use beersmith and calculate them as 15/20min steep additions. I think the idea is they are at above 80 degrees for about 15-20min.

I use very liberal amounts of cube hops and don't get too much bitterness for my liking. Very tasty beers though with the hop flavour coming through strong.


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## Edd (18/12/17)

manticle said:


> If you mashed at 75 and have plastic tastes, you have a world of things to work out before worrying about shifting hop additions.
> 
> For new cubes, you can fill with boiling water, let cool, then taste the water. If it tastes like plastic, repeat the process until it doesn't.
> Make sure all hoses are food grade silicon, not pvc or similar.
> ...



Silicon hose purchased, my other was making boiled water taste foul, much worse than any water I tried out of the rinsed cube. The cube just tasted very very faintly of hops from last batch. I’m thinking I might have found the culprit of the highly plastic taste. As for the temp I have purchased a decent digital thermometer this time, one that allows calibration too. See how this goes.

Many thanks to all for interesting replies to the thread btw, some good ideas to try. Looking forward to it. Cheers.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (18/12/17)

Rocker1986 said:


> In any case though, it's isomerisation of the alpha acids, they'll be in the wort regardless of the hops being removed or not.



Research suggests that is not the mechanism involved as raw alpha acids (before isomerisation) are even less soluble than iso alpha acids. Since the alpha acids are largely contained in the lupulin glands which are dominated by their wax / oil content, it follows that the majority of isomerisation will occur before extraction.

Another complication is that raw alpha acids are 10,000 to 100,000 times more soluble in HDPE than in wort* and have been shown to be strongly surface active, so a large (but very hard to predict) proportion of the alpha extracted from the hops will not end up in the wort at all.



Hez said:


> mmmm I thought it had to do with other chemicals, I'm not sure if I understand why this is happening then... so the problem is from boiling to 90º??



No.

The rate of isomerisation reduces with temperature but it never reaches zero**. Once you are below about 70 degreees it is slow enough that you have to do something unusual for it to affect the isomerisation rate: like, for instance, filling your wort into a large plastic container at high temperature without cooling.


Footnotes:

* The rate of migration into the HDPE is very slow, so it is likely that the surface effect dominates in short time scales. I am unaware of any research that quantifies this, it is unlikely have been done since the part of the industry that funds research doesn't use plastic containers for wort.

** We've been through this many times before. The rate drops by a bit more than half for each 10 oC reduction in temperature. If you like maths, SQRT 6 is a good approximation of the reduction rate per 10oC. Another way of thinking of this is that the rate reduces by a factor of 10 when the temperature drops by ~26 degrees ( ln10 / ln 6 = 1.28).


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## Hez (18/12/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Research suggests that is not the mechanism involved as raw alpha acids (before isomerisation) are even less soluble than iso alpha acids. Since the alpha acids are largely contained in the lupulin glands which are dominated by their wax / oil content, it follows that the majority of isomerisation will occur before extraction.
> 
> Another complication is that raw alpha acids are 10,000 to 100,000 times more soluble in HDPE than in wort* and have been shown to be strongly surface active, so a large (but very hard to predict) proportion of the alpha extracted from the hops will not end up in the wort at all.
> 
> ...


Rocker1986 said that it doesn't matter if you remove or not the hops from the kettle/fermenter after boiling because the alpha acids are already dissolved and they keep the isomerization process, you confirm the formula is not linear or stops at one temperature but it is continuous and logarithmic so that means with time and temp they will continue to "create bitterness" but probably at an insignificant rate when they are down a particular threshold.. the point is to find which is the temperature to chill the wort without getting too crazy with the chilling procedure, when is it "safe" to stop "fast chilling" and leave it into the fridge or cooling "slowly"? What is this "sweetspot"? 60, 50, 40, 30? Or maybe the question is not to find a perfect value but the one that makes you happy, so maybe it would be more interesting to make a poll...
At which temperature do you stop chilling fast and you go to the fridge or leave it cool down by its own?

(I'm fairly cooked right now... Some pints after work for Christmas, bla bla... Maybe I don't make any sense jejeje )


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## Rocker1986 (18/12/17)

I'd defer to LC on this one Hez, he is far more knowledgeable in the science of it than I am. However if you are actively chilling wort, it's better to get it to pitching temp as quickly as possible and pitch the yeast rather than cool it halfway and let it sit unpitched for hours. That's just making it easier for infections to take hold.

In any case, there are methods that can be used with no chill brewing to make sure the bitterness isn't too high in beers with lots of late hop additions. In beers without late hops it's a non issue though.


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## Edd (14/5/18)

As a footnote to this thread, I did find that my fridge temp controller was about 3C too high. I calibrated my didgital thermometer to boiling water and then stuck that next to the probe for a few minutes. Did this 3 times with consistent high readings from the fridge probe.


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## Edd (22/5/18)

Also I’ve knocked back the hopping on latest batch. I’ve gone for my usual 60min addition but then no more in the boil. I’ve cube hopped half the remaining kettle additions and will heave the rest in as dry hopping. See what I get.


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## sotally tober (26/5/18)

My advice after doing NC brewing for 10 years is...…..
As mentioned add 20mins to any boiling hop addition including flame out.

In short if you add your hops to the sanitised cube and run your hot wort @ 80c into the cube you would account for a 10min whirpool addition.
If you are using Beersmith they recently added this option.

There was an article in a recent Beer and Brewer Magazine about this.
The B n B article suggested to add the cube hops as a 60 min addition,​and calculate 18% of that addition for accuracy (if the wort is run into the cube @ 80c) as even at this temp you will still extract some bitterness.


I've done this multiple times and cross referenced the methods and they are both very precise.


Try it out, I'm confident you will be stoked


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## Rocker1986 (29/5/18)

Everyone has different ways and means. I don't "add" any time to any hop additions, I simply create hop schedules to work with the no-chill process that give me what I want in the glass.


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## MHB (29/5/18)

Personally I think the biggest problem is people cant tell the difference between Hop Taste and Bitterness.
I know some will say that if it tastes bitterer it must be, but not really the case. Bittiness (IBU's) is a measure of the amount of dissolved Iso-Alpha in the beer, to say that it tastes bitter with more hop taste components is a bit like measuring the bitterness of Tonic Water (=0 IBU's) it bitter but not hop bitter if that makes sense.
You can learn the difference, get some pre-isomerised hop product, dilute it down to about 25-30 IBU. Make up some hop tea (stay under 80oC), the tea will have very little IBU type bitterness (under the taste threshold) but plenty of hop taste. Taste the two and you can tell the difference, with a bit of practice you can pick out the difference even when the two are mixed together as is in a beer.
Mark


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## Edd (30/5/18)

This BeerSmith whirlpool addition timing has me a bit stumped as I am cube hopping and technically not whirlpool hopping. Same/same but different...! 
I’m thinking that I should enter the time from adding cube hops, to the time the wort drops below 85C in the cube to get an estimate of utilisation? 
I have canned all kettle additions bar the 60min bittering - which is adjusted to get my IBU’s up there. I have halved the remaining kettle additions and added 50% as a cube hop, the rest will be dry hopped with remaining hops. 
I’m hoping this might work as I was finding even knocking 20 mins off kettle adds was creating a beer that was far too bitter, and not a clean bitterness either. 
It’s an open ended query I suppose as what’s good for me is not to everyone else’s taste!


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## Rocker1986 (31/5/18)

I usually just add cube hops as a 5 minute steep. It seems to work in that the beers turn out as expected.


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## pirateagenda (1/6/18)

MHB said:


> Personally I think the biggest problem is people cant tell the difference between Hop Taste and Bitterness.
> I know some will say that if it tastes bitterer it must be, but not really the case. Bittiness (IBU's) is a measure of the amount of dissolved Iso-Alpha in the beer, to say that it tastes bitter with more hop taste components is a bit like measuring the bitterness of Tonic Water (=0 IBU's) it bitter but not hop bitter if that makes sense.
> You can learn the difference, get some pre-isomerised hop product, dilute it down to about 25-30 IBU. Make up some hop tea (stay under 80oC), the tea will have very little IBU type bitterness (under the taste threshold) but plenty of hop taste. Taste the two and you can tell the difference, with a bit of practice you can pick out the difference even when the two are mixed together as is in a beer.
> Mark



This is spot on! 

I often taste my hydro sample and it tastes way more bitter than I wanted. Then after the brew is finished and keg it tastes much better. Reason is that there is hop particles in the sample that haven't yet settled and been chilled, giving that hop bitterness in your mouth. Once it's all settled, the beer mellows


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## Rocker1986 (1/6/18)

I find that with FG samples compared to the finished beer as well. I read somewhere that it can be hop compounds sticking to the yeast too so when the yeast drops out and drags them with it, the beer tastes less bitter.


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## fdsaasdf (1/6/18)

Rocker1986 said:


> I find that with FG samples compared to the finished beer as well. I read somewhere that it can be hop compounds sticking to the yeast too so when the yeast drops out and drags them with it, the beer tastes less bitter.


Concur, I sit my samples in the freezer for a few minutes before tasting to try and drop the particulate out.


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