# Old Peculier



## RobinHood

Old Peculier – is a fantastic old beer I came across at the Lion Inn (1553) at Blakey, while walking across the ol’ Dart.
This is a recipe that I have found:-
*[SIZE=13pt]Amount Fermentable[/SIZE]*​1.362Kg Dark Dry Malt Extract​540g Golden Light DME​454g Candi Sugar, Dark​454g 2-Row Caramel Malt 60L​227g Lyle's Golden Syrup​168g Chocolate Malt​168g Black Malt​113g Molasses​113g Wheat, Torrified​*[SIZE=18pt]Hops[/SIZE]* 
*Amount Hop Time*​37g Fuggle (US) 60 min​34g Fuggle (US) 15 min​
*[SIZE=18pt]Yeasts[/SIZE]*

*Name Lab/Product Attenuation*​Trappist Ale Yeast White Labs WLP500 78.00%​
*[SIZE=18pt]Extras[/SIZE]*

*Amount Name Time*​57g Isinglass, liquid 1.0 days​2.0 tsp Irish Moss 15.0 min​

My questions are how do I introduce the Dark Candi Sugar; do I just heat it up in water till it dissolves? It looks like lollies.
Second question – the recipe asks for Fuggle (US) hops; I realise that Fuggle hops are grown in the USA, but I thought our main source were from NZ or the UK – is there a notable difference?
Lastly – Isinglass, an old protein that was mainly used in wine making for clearing the wine; Isinglass is apparently the dried wind bladder of the sturgeon! I’m using Irish Moss – is the “Fish Bladder” necessary?
Thanks in advance for any (good) advice given.
Cheers,
Robin.


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## kaiserben

Isinglass is just finings (you could use gelatine, or simply not bother) 

I reckon Fuggles (US) is probably just because whoever came up with this clone recipe is from the US and had access to the US variety.


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## welly2

Good old Old Peculiar. Used to love that stuff. Interesting that they've used Trappist Ale Yeast for it. Let us know how you get on with that one, I'd love to brew some up myself.


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## siege

Definitely give it a go. It's a lovely beer.

I used whatever fuggles the LHBS had in stock. Can't imagine it making any difference to my uncouth palate.

I reckon you can simplify that list of fermentables a touch though. What is the point of golden syrup and candi sugar if you're also using molasses? (and molasses is used in the original)
Also what's the point of messing around with slightly different colours of DME? Use whatever you have because it's going to end up black from the steeped roasted malts anyway.
Finally what's the point of torrified wheat if you're not mashing as so stuck sparges etc aren't an issue?
What's the point of clarity fining agents in a black beer?

I agree it's a good idea to use a few different steeping grains to try to get the complexity and balance of flavours. You might have to do some experimental batches to get it where you want it, also what volume are you making? Can't comment on grain quantity without knowing how much beer you are making.
In my recipe I used: simpsons dark crystal, simpsons roast barley and weyerman carafa I
Plus the malt and molasses of course. I did use an english yeast strain though, belgian seems an interesting choice let us know how it turns out


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## Mardoo

I know technobabble66 has had a few go's at Old Peculiar. You could PM him for his recipe.


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## manticle

I'd be very surprised if that yeast is appropriate. Was going to suggest technobabble as well.


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## MartinOC

:icon_offtopic: Blakey or Blakeney (on the North Norfolk coast)?

Chances-are you came-across the best-presented OP on the planet, so no surprises that you were impressed....


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## Bribie G

It would just be a Yorkshire Stone Square type yeast for sure. Try 1469

My first experience with Old Peculier was in a pub in Sunderland UK in about 1976 served from a wooden barrel on the bar. I seem to remember.
My second experience was on a hiking tour when I ended up at Hexham railway station, in a state of dehydration and exhaustion, back in the days when we didn't call them a "train" station.
I'd picked up a six from a pub and drank them on the station. Presumably I got on the train.


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## MHB

Another fan of the old winter warmer.
The yeast is very wrong, I have used Muntons Gold, S-04 and London Ale with great success. Also been very happy with Graham Wheelers recipe, I suspect the Golden Syrup, Belgian Candi and Molasses are something of an affection. The beer is really pretty straight forward with the Fuggle ringing out pretty clearly, I suspect from the fruitiness that there is a fair amount of Challenger in the early hops.

If you like the Old Peculier, I would try a better recipe than that American abortion.
Mark


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## manticle

I have the impression from somewhere that Theakston's contains a portion of treacle.

The sugar additions in the Original poster's recipe look very out of place but the yeast is the sorest thumb.

Actually just checked the website which suggests a very simple pale (probably maris) crystal (uk presumably) and roast barley with fuggles and some other bittering hops.
Presumably some good ageing to develop other characters.


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## Fourstar

taken from the Real Ale Almanac...

pale, crystal, cereal, sugar, fuggles and other Bittering hop dry hopped 29 IBU.

i'd suspect the sugars take up majority of the dark colour. e.g. treacle or burnt caramel. As for cereal its probably unmalted grain e.g. torrified wheat. Yeast id be looking at 1469 or something pushing esters (1968). Not Belgian.

maybe something like.

1.058 OG

70% Maris Otter
10% Torrified wheat
7% Dark Crystal
5% Light Crystal
8% Burnt caramel or treacle

Challenger 20IBU @ 60min
Fuggles 9IBU @ 15min
Fuggles Dry Hop 7 days, (1.5g to the L)


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## MHB

Went and had a bit of a dig through a couple of books, the best single reference I could find remains Wheelers, the following references Rodger Protz's Almanac version 1-5, I believe the Flaked Maize is now history, that the other bittering hop is Challenger, the beer is dry (cask) hopped with Fuggle.
Not a complicated beer but beautify brewed.
Mark

Yes agree on both the sugar and yeast, in-fact its a pretty tragic recipe
M

[SIZE=medium]Old Peculier [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]OG: 1058 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Malt bill: Pale malt, Crystal malt, Roast malt, Flaked maize, Sugar [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Hops: Fuggles, Others [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Dry hops: Yes [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]IBU/(EBC): 29 (95) [/SIZE]


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## Blind Dog

molasses has no place anywhere near an Old Peculier type recipe, even though I've read many a poster on US sites suggesting it as a substitute for black treacle. It isn't. Not That I'd use black reacle either. Belgian yeast is another miss for me.

Assuming you want a extract recipe, there are plenty of less dubious origin flirting around either here or on UK forums. I don't brew extract, but if I did I'd be looking at something like 90% to 93% LME (preferably an English pale lme), 5% of crystals to steep (probably a mix of medium and dark) and a small amount (say 2%) of black malt also steeped for colour. Depending on the % of LME, up to 3% would be golden syrip (Lyles) or a raw sugar to add some fermentable and flavour whilst drying the beer a little.

Bitter with challenger (or ekg at a pinch). Late hops & dry hop should really be Fuggles.

Yeast should be English, Wyeast 1469 would be the obvious choice, although I'd probably go Wyeast 1275 or WLP Bedford if it was in season.


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## RobinHood

[SIZE=14pt]Thanks for the useful info you all have provided.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]In my quest I have come across this site:-[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]http://www.britishbrewer.com/2010/02/recipe-theakston-old-peculier-version-1/[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Which I assume my original (US it seems) recipe was adapted/plagiarised from.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The yeast has been questioned by a few, so the above link is interesting reading – and apparently Dan Murphy sells OP; when you are looking for a clone recipe they try to sell you the original, but good to know when comparison testing the brew.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The Dark Candi Sugar is added at flame-out for the “[/SIZE]*[SIZE=14pt]Base Malt and Fermentables[/SIZE]*[SIZE=14pt]” and they are the size of those Coopers Carbonation Drops – bit concerned they will dissolve.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]So, it seems I will be trying the above link unless I find one of the suggested links or recipes that better fit the bill. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Once it is bottled I have to leave it for 3 months – a bloke could go mad waiting for the finished product! But as Sigmund once said “I’d rather a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal lobotomy”.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Cheers,[/SIZE]


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## manticle

Pale malt extract.
steep crystal.
steep roast barley.
boil with challenger and late fuggles.
use a good uk yeast like 1469.
dry hop with fuggles.
age 3+months.

Throw sugar and belgian yeast at your next tripel.


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## RobinHood

[SIZE=14pt]In response to comments:-[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Welly2 – “Used to love that stuff” – What do you mean “Used to”?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]MartinOC – Blakey, on the Yorkshire Moors and in the middle of nowhere. The Lion Inn, GREAT old pub – but I’m over 6ft and the 5’ 6’ ceiling bearers can be a headache. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Brbie G – It’s a wonder you caught the train at all![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Cheers,[/SIZE]


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## madpierre06

Have never tried this beer but threads like these always peak my interest to try a new drop, on searching found this recipe which comes close to what Fourstar came up with. One for the 'to try later' file.....

All-grain recipe, 5 gallon batch size
OG 1.058-1.060, IBU ~30, SRM ~21 (deep dark ruby)

75% Optic Pale malt
10% Simpson Crystal 75L
5% Torrified Wheat
2% Black Patent
8% Sugar

Mash @ 150-154F

Fuggles 4%AA 2oz @ 60min
Fuggles 0.5oz @ 15min

Yeast: 1469 West Yorkshire @ 62-65F


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## MHB

If you visit Theakstons website they say they use 2 bittering hops, I think I would definitely be using some Challenger in there. Other than that and the fact that the recipe is in silly units it looks pretty good.
Oh and I wouldn't worry about trying to get Optic any of the good UK pale malts would work, tho I admit to liking Golden Promise, especially in darker UK Ales.
Mark


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## Coalminer

MHB said:


> If you visit Theakstons website they say they use 2 bittering hops, I think I would definitely be using some Challenger in there. Other than that and the fact that the recipe is in silly units it looks pretty good.
> Oh and I wouldn't worry about trying to get Optic any of the good UK pale malts would work, tho I admit to liking Golden Promise, especially in darker UK Ales.
> Mark


Mark
Interested in your opinion of the 2 recipes in Brewbuilder
Which would you recommend?
Cheers
Paul


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## technobabble66

I'll try to get to a computer a bit later in the day to post a wall of text on this, but all my research on TOP (~35 recipes i found, plus discussions) points towards what manticle suggests in post #15 to be more accurate, and the recipes like the two the OP has posted are from people with wild imaginations on ingredients and less understanding of the flavour complexities just a few simple ingredients and the right yeast can achieve (given some of my past recipes for other beers, i think manticle might've just choked a little :lol: ).

It's basically MO + Crystal + Chocolate (malt!) + Fuggles + EKG + Northern Brewer + some UK yeast.
This is from Wheeler's latest recipe, i believe.


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## MHB

Coalminer said:


> Mark
> Interested in your opinion of the 2 recipes in Brewbuilder
> Which would you recommend?
> Cheers
> Paul


The OP1 is the older of the two and probably a bit closer to the way Theakstons made the beer 10-15 years ago, the OP11 is based on a more recent report of a brewery visit and interview with the head brewer there that I dug up somewhere (I think it was an IBD magazine).
They both taste pretty good, and the problem with recipes is that they are always changing.
I think If I was brewing Old Peculiar this weekend, for me to drink it would be the OP11.

Techno... I suspect there is very little chance that OP is brewed with much or for that matter any MO, there simply isn't enough MO grown in the world to make all the beers that someone (often the brewer) claims contain Maris. Its good marketing to say a beer is "made with" Maris, tho that is a true statement even if the beer only contains 1% MO its still made with... and I cant taste the typical MO flavours in this beer, all toffee, fruit cake and yeast esters. I think I would enjoy tinkering around with a similar beer but use CaraAroma and maybe even a bit of Special B, they both throw lots of that plumb pudding I like in strong dark ales. The Chocolate and/or Black patent would be for me a personal taste, I don't get a chocolate hit from the beer - nor the astringency you would expect from Roast, Its mostly there for colour adjustment so I suspect it's Black Patent but hey there is more than one way to skin a cat (still sucks if your the cat) and there are lots of options you could try.

But if anyone is interested here is a lift of the Recipe Coalminer was asking about - and yes Brewman is a Sponsor and no I'm not a retailer so de-bunch Ok
Mark


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## Coalminer

Thanks Mark, looking forward to it
Paul


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## welly2

RobinHood said:


> [SIZE=14pt]In response to comments:-[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=14pt]Welly2 – “Used to love that stuff” – What do you mean “Used to”?[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=14pt]MartinOC – Blakey, on the Yorkshire Moors and in the middle of nowhere. The Lion Inn, GREAT old pub – but I’m over 6ft and the 5’ 6’ ceiling bearers can be a headache. [/SIZE]
> [SIZE=14pt]Brbie G – It’s a wonder you caught the train at all![/SIZE]
> [SIZE=14pt]Cheers,[/SIZE]


Used to when I could buy and drink it! I'd still love it now if I could get my grubby hands on the stuff.


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## technobabble66

Alrighty.

First up, I've brewed an attempt at a clone twice and done T-ruckloads of reading on this baby.
First time it turned out like a good dark ale, but not quite a TOP replica.
Recipe was tweaked (yes, i have too many malts to tempt me, begging me to throw them in also) and the 2nd version's (brewed a few months ago) result was definitely closer - definitely some of those malty, dried fruit aromas coming through.
However, it'll probably need and extra few months before it's remotely close enough to tell; and unfortunately the yeast i used turned out to be completely wrong (MJ Dark Ale) - stalling at 60% attenuation, then waking up 2 weeks later and dropping it to maybe 85% attenuation (mumble mumble [email protected]*k&#* yeast M*#@^&RF#@%#R!!) so i'll need to do another batch to test that recipe now anyway.

Of the 35 recipes i'd gleaned from the internet, Wheeler seemed to be the one who had the "best" versions (over a few editions of his British Ale book). He initially started with something more like the OP or post#11, then moved to more like what i'd suggested in post#20. Now i'm under the impression the majority of Wheeler's recipes these days are acquired by rocking up to the respective brewery, finding out what their recipe is, then trying to scale it down to a homebrewing level. I also believe some of the recipes in his earlier editions were from his calculated guesses when he wasn't able to get the breweries' recipes. But over time he's managed to get most of them these days. Whether his earlier versions were from Theakston's and they've changed their recipe, or whether he's guessed those and now has the "official" one, or if he's still guestimating i'm not sure. However, i got the impression on the UK forums/threads he participated in that the version i've used is "authentic". Who knows?!? What i've said is just what i "believe" etc.

The version i based my attempts on is roughly:
23 L
5.5 kg MO
0.3 kg Med crystal
0.2 kg Chocolate
30g Northern Brewer @ 90mins
15g Fuggles @ 90mins
15g EKG @ 10mins
yeast not specified

The exact Wheeler's recipe varies slightly in the quantities but the above is what i was guided by.
FWIW, there's several others i came across that do similar ingredients and ratios, so there seemed to be a little bit of consensus/plagiarism on this version of a clone.

The 1st version i did was:
5.45kg MO
0.45kg Chocolate
0.225 Crystal (50g pale/125g med/50g dark)
0.1g Acidualted
some salts, favouring CaCl a bit
25g Northern Brewer @60mins
14g Fuggles @ 60mins
14g EKG @ 10mins
Fermented with Nottingham

The changes were made based on conversations with Grantw and his attempt at it (and manticle has mentioned before splitting crystal additions like i did to get better depth in darker beers - so i blame him for that :lol: ).
As mentioned this turned out to be a good dark ale, but not what i was after.
Back to the drawing board!

The 2nd attempt was:
25L (@85% efficiency)
5.25kg MO
0.25kg Amber (Simpsons)
0.2kg Chocolate
0.325kg Crystal (150g med/75g dark/100g caraAroma)
0.1kg Acidulated
some salts biased to CaCl
20g each of Fuggles & Horizon (free hops!, otherwise i'd go Challenger) @ 40mins
20g EKG & 15g Fuggles at 20mins
MJ03
Separately reduced 3L to 0.5L during the boil. Cold-steeped crystal + chocolate overnight.

Amber was to get some toastiness and amp up the maltiness (Simpson's Amber is meant to be ~ the UK version of Biscuit). The crystal split was pushed into darker territory to try to get more "dried fruit" aroma & flavour. Otherwise the crystal:chocolate proportion is more similar to what i think is Wheeler's version. The hops additions are based on my addiction to hops elements, but in hindsight i could've been less of an idiot and just pushed the 40mins back to 60-90mins. MJ03 was a terrible choice - i'm still angry about it! I'm sure it's got great applications, but was incorrect for this; though i suppose something might've screwed up with my mash temps also to cause this. Definitely choose a typical UK yeast next time.
So instead of being ~6.4% alcohol, it's now 7.5% alcohol and thinner to boot. Not Happy, Jan!

Re: the Trappist Ale yeast mentioned earlier, i believe it's to try to achieve the fruity esters you get in TOP. Should be achievable with the UK yeasts, but obviously some people believe in a more direct approach!

@Mark/MHB, yeah, agree that MO is a dubious label these days. Hey, it looks cool; like you know all about UK beers if you insist on it in your beers! h34r: :lol:
Also the ingredients quoted by a brewery definitely may be in any ratio, and may not even be *all* of the ingredients in there. Sneaky bastards!
In terms of flavours/aromas, i'd say that with so much dark stuff, it might be masking the typical elements you'd expect to get from MO. I mean, we're all trying to nail a particular beer that's awesome specifically for the unusual flavours/aromas it has - i.e.: dried fruit & pudding from a bunch of grain and hops. So there's obviously some weird ingredient synergies going on in there.
I actually think it's the bloody yeast that's the trick! - TOP is a particular combo that the yeast really brings together in an amazing way. It is a great example of the synergies that can be achieved with simple ingredients done just right, to produce "non-typical" beer flavours. So to get a dried fruit flavour doesn't mean you throw in dried fruit, but that you combine some caraaroma, etc and yeast and do it in a certain way and it produces this magic!
TBH, i've never used the various brewing sugars, so i can't really comment on them. UK breweries certainly have a history of using sugars, though this obviously doesn't mean they are/were used in TOP.

I hope that slab of text helps!

Aopolgies to the OP - i believe he is an extract brewer, so the AG recipes i've mentioned are of limited value. Hopefully someone can convert it to extract if he's interested in trying one. Or it's a good excuse to turn to AG!!

EDIT: 
At a pinch, i'd maybe try something like
1 tin of Amber extract,
1 tin of Dark extract,
some crystal and chocolate malt to steep (e.g.: 150g crystal, 100g chocolate),
and then some Fuggles + Challenger @60-90mins, & EKG @10-20mins.
Best try a liquid UK yeast if you can.


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## MHB

This is really one of my favourite UK beers and I have brewed about half a dozen versions, the best couple both used Muntons Gold Yeast, better even than versions using liquid yeasts.
It really does seem to tick all the boxes for me - it can be a bit of a pain to get at present but I think its worth doing the legwork,
M


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## manticle

Whether or not maris is used in 100% proportions of all uk beers, doesn't mean it would be a bad base to start with. GP or MO would be my starting, readily accessible pale malt for this and I can't see anyone going wrong with either.


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## MHB

Funnily enough I like both, GP particularly for it flexibility, you can use it for a base for most premium British Ales. Maris on the other hand has a very characteristic flavour and you always pay extra for it.
A visit to Theakstons web site will show they make no claims as to there being any MO in the beer - were there I suspect they would be saying so!
If you were trying to clone Fullers which everyone knows is based on Halcyon, we would probably be a bit startled at any suggestions to use Pilsner malt and given that Halcyon is pretty thin on the ground in Oz these days, I think choosing a malt like Maris with its baggage would be an equally poor choice, not a bad malt - a bad choice.
Using MO is apparently the default premium malt choice around here - often very inappropriately.
Maris is a great malt for some beers I would suggest not for this one.
Mark


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## Mardoo

Halcyon. Rocking horses must eat it. Dammit.


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## manticle

What do you think it would bring to the party that would be inappropriate?


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## technobabble66

A civet-like flavour?


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## technobabble66

After all this talk I had a hankering for an updated sample. 
Slowly getting good. Still needs a few months - the roasts need more time to mellow. 
Has a nice "cola" flavour to it. 
Slight fruitiness but a long way to go on that front - hopefully it'll eventually get there! 
Color looks about right - black with a red glint. Maybe the original is a fraction darker?
Pretty happy considering how the yeast or mash screwed me on this one.


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## MHB

manticle said:


> _What do you think it would bring to the party that would be inappropriate?_


Maris is justifiably an highly esteemed malt and in lots of UK style beers (especially cask ales) it would be my first choice. But it brings a characteristic nutty biscuity flavour.
If you taste Theakstons Old Peculiar or even read the tasting notes, Here is a lift of one example from Theakstons
"Distinctive banana and blackcherry aroma leading to a magnificent Christmas pudding kaleidoscope of flavour. Rich, smooth and sweet."

For the same reasons that we both aren't too impressed with the idea of using Belgian Ale Yeast, or molasses in this recipe - that being that they bring with them flavours that we aren't looking for in a TOP clone, I am suggesting that a cleaner less emphatic base malt will allow the flavours we are looking for from the Crystal/Roast and Yeast to stand out more clearly!

This thread isn't about designing a great tasting beer - its about coming up with a "Clone" of a great tasting beer.
Anyone can put anything the like in their beer, but when we are working on a homage recipe I think we are much more likely to get close to the result we are looking for if we use the most appropriate (unlikely to be identical) ingredients to what the brewer is using - I strongly suspect the brewer isn't using Maris Otter in this beer.
Mark

This is the 50th anniversary of the release of Maris Otter, the people (Robin Appel Ltd) have put out a media release, looking at the history of Maris Otter, If you like Maris as much as I do (but perhaps not in TOP) it makes interesting reading View attachment Maris-Otter-Press-Release.pdf

M


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## Mardoo

Awesome MHB. Thanks for sharing that. Now, how to get to the Norwich Beer Festival?


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## manticle

It's a fair call. It is a very distinctive base, well discernible even in beers with lots of roast like porter and stout.


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## Weizguy

MHB said:


> Funnily enough I like both, GP particularly for it flexibility, you can use it for a base for most premium British Ales. Maris on the other hand has a very characteristic flavour and you always pay extra for it.
> A visit to Theakstons web site will show they make no claims as to there being any MO in the beer - were there I suspect they would be saying so!
> If you were trying to clone Fullers which everyone knows is based on Halcyon, we would probably be a bit startled at any suggestions to use Pilsner malt and given that Halcyon is pretty thin on the ground in Oz these days, I think choosing a malt like Maris with its baggage would be an equally poor choice, not a bad malt - a bad choice.
> Using MO is apparently the default premium malt choice around here - often very inappropriately.
> Maris is a great malt for some beers I would suggest not for this one.
> Mark


I have used Perle malt in a few British ales. Would this be useful in a TOP clone?


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## MHB

Yes Perle would be a very good choice, my personal pick would be Golden Promise, especially the floor malted version, it has a bit more depth and complexity
Mark


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## technobabble66

Rather than start another thread on this topic, i thought i'd latch onto this one.

I'm going to do another attempt at this soon, probably for the Vic Xmas in July Case Swap.
The plan is to cut it back to a simple recipe.
Also, of the 2 versions i've done, one was ~ similar to Wheeler's clone recipe (91.4% MO, 5% Crystal, 3.6% Choc), and 1 was similar to Grantw's clone (same as wheeler's, but swapped Cystal & Choc around). Both of which seemed to be a bit excessive in the roasty, toasty flavours. 
Combined with some of my experience with Irish Reds of late, i've decided i'll have a go at using Roast Barley instead of Choc malt, as per the Theakstons website itself. So i basically went with the idea the Wheeler probably hits the numbers with his recipe, so use those numbers as the targets & then tweak to maintain those numbers. (though i dropped the colour by ~5 EBC to get dark dark red rather than almost-black)

So, the 3 main questions are:
1) choice of yeast, preferably within the options i currently stock;
2) *timing* of hops additions, as i'm fairly sure i've got the right 3 selected (& is bitterness enough?);
3) General thoughts on malt bill.

Current recipe:

Vol = 24L
OG= 1.060
FG= 1.016
IBU= 36
EBC= 42
Alc%= 6.1

5.55kg MO
0.3kg Heritage Crystal (150 EBC)
0.15kg Roasted Barley

15g Challenger @ FWH
15g Target @ FWH
20g Fuggles @ 20mins (cube-hopped)
10g Challenger @ 20mins (cube-hopped)

55/65/72/78 for 5/60/20/2

Boil for 90mins.
Draw off 3-4L and boil down to 0.25-0.5L to enhance caramelisation.

Yeast = 1728 (scottish) or 004 (irish).


Thoughts most appreciated !


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## Bribie G

1469


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## manticle

I hope to knock the top off an old perc later tonight. If I remember to check back, I'll throw 2 cents at it.


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## technobabble66

Bribie G said:


> 1469


1469? 
I know you're a big fan of 1469, bribie, but will it be much different to the Scottish or Irish?
I don't mean to shoot down the suggestion, more looking for an elaboration on the differences. 
I've used the Scottish and Irish yeasts before with good results. They seem to bring out deep malty elements, in particular caramel notes. But I'm not sure they'll bring the plum & cherry notes TOP is generally seen as having. From the TOP webpage: "a beer of awesome full-bodied flavour with subtle cherry and rich fruit overtones...Distinctive banana and blackcherry aroma leading to a magnificent Christmas pudding kaleidoscope of flavour."
Basically I'm pretty ignorant of UK yeasts and the specific elements each brings to the table. 
And I'm starting to suspect that 50% of what you get out of TOP is from the yeast. 
So I'm looking for some Ed-U-Cation !

I vaguely recall reading your posts in the West Yorkshire yeast/bitter thread not so long ago and reading a bit more about 1469 (theakstons is in North Yorkshire!), wondering if it might be worth a shot in a TOP clone. Had forgotten about it until now! I'll reread ASAP, I think. 
I think the lower attenuation and lack of it being recommended for Old Ales put me off a bit. So you think this is definitely the best of the UK yeasts for a TOP clone?

And if I need to buy a specific yeast for this then so be it. But if I'm buying, then I might as well check the other options/strains.

Edit: and if 1469 is sold out [emoji53] is there a second option you'd suggest?

Ps: keen to hear your thoughts mid-TOP, mants.


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## manticle

Sorry TB. Got back to the hotel and went to bed so the peculier has been posted back to me. Won't get to it for a few days.
I have the opportunity to try it now at beer deluxe but it will be straight from the fridge. My own bottle I can let settle and reach proper drinking temperature. Either weekend or early next week mate.


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## welly2

I'm going to have a bash at an OP. TB's recipe looks the business. According to this website: http://www.beer-pages.com/stories/theakston.htm - bitterness to 29 (presumably IBU) and colour to 95 although 95 EBC would be absolutely pitch black, surely? OP isn't that dark although obviously it is dark. I wonder if OP has something like black treacle in it? I'm going to throw in a can and see what occurs.


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## technobabble66

Thanks for the thought, mants. Look fwd to your input after giving the tastebuds a workout. 

I'm starting to wonder if I'm wrong w the RB and should stick to the Choc. My thinking was the specific elements I taste with the (admittedly more kilned) RB combined with the Crystal could be capable of creating the deep fruit flavours in TOP, whereas Choc will just produce that standard roasty, toasty malt flavour. Does that sound ok to your imagination? I'll probably stick to the RB without any other feedback, but just thought I'd see if anyone thought otherwise. 
Also, their website specifies "generous blend of finest pale, crystal and roasted barley". Fwiw. 


Hey bribie, you still there? [emoji185]


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## technobabble66

welly2 said:


> I'm going to have a bash at an OP. TB's recipe looks the business. According to this website: http://www.beer-pages.com/stories/theakston.htm - bitterness to 29 (presumably IBU) and colour to 95 although 95 EBC would be absolutely pitch black, surely? OP isn't that dark although obviously it is dark. I wonder if OP has something like black treacle in it? I'm going to throw in a can and see what occurs.


"Theakston Old Peculier, 5.6%
95 colour, 29 bitterness, brewed with ale and crystal malts, wheat, maize, cane sugar and caramel, hopped with Challenger, Fuggles and Target. "

Color units are not necessarily EBC, fwiw. Though you'd assume that's what they're referring to. 
Yeah, I'd agree. 95 EBC is gonna be pitch black. I did an Irish red recently that was calculated at 33 EBC and seemed to be (accidentally) close to dark red enough to be similar to a TOP. Hence, I went with slightly less that graham wheelers recipe, and aimed for ~42 EBC. 

Interesting, I've never seen that article (from '04) & I've done a lot of research on a TOP clone! Great find!!
The hops are right, I believe. I'm not convinced on the grist though. The Brits have a history of using all sorts of adjuncts, but I'm not sure about tasting anything like wheat or maize in it. Having tried a few Belgian strongs that use various syrups, I'd def agree sugars/syrups/caramels may be used in TOP. I'm curious (given the probable accuracy of the hops), whether the entire recipes are truly taken from the brewery, or if there's a mix of truth and author's conjecture in there. 

For this next batch, I'm going to exercise enormous restraint and try to keep it simple, then go from there. 
One of my more recent interests is homemade Belgian Candi syrup, so TOP clones could be another outlet for my syrup experiments.


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## welly2

technobabble66 said:


> "Theakston Old Peculier, 5.6%
> 95 colour, 29 bitterness, brewed with ale and crystal malts, wheat, maize, cane sugar and caramel, hopped with Challenger, Fuggles and Target. "
> 
> Color units are not necessarily EBC, fwiw. Though you'd assume that's what they're referring to.
> Yeah, I'd agree. 95 EBC is gonna be pitch black. I did an Irish red recently that was calculated at 33 EBC and seemed to be (accidentally) close to dark red enough to be similar to a TOP. Hence, I went with slightly less that graham wheelers recipe, and aimed for ~42 EBC.
> 
> Interesting, I've never seen that article (from '04) & I've done a lot of research on a TOP clone! Great find!!
> The hops are right, I believe. I'm not convinced on the grist though. The Brits have a history of using all sorts of adjuncts, but I'm not sure about tasting anything like wheat or maize in it. Having tried a few Belgian strongs that use various syrups, I'd def agree sugars/syrups/caramels may be used in TOP. I'm curious (given the probable accuracy of the hops), whether the entire recipes are truly taken from the brewery, or if there's a mix of truth and author's conjecture in there.
> 
> For this next batch, I'm going to exercise enormous restraint and try to keep it simple, then go from there.
> One of my more recent interests is homemade Belgian Candi syrup, so TOP clones could be another outlet for my syrup experiments.


Agreed - where did the maize and wheat came from? It's not even suggested on the Theakstons website. Although, of course they could well not be telling everything that's in the beer, which would be understandable and not a surprise. I think I'll be trying your recipe with the addition of a tin of Lyle's Black Treacle - there's something that suggests an addition along those lines might be in it - and see what that gets me. Even if it's not absolutely identical to TOP, it's going to be tasty!


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## technobabble66

Tasted the Lyles Treacle recently?
It's like straight molasses.
I assumed it'd be like a more intense version of CSR Golden Syrup (cf the Lyles GS, which is v tasty, btw). Nope. Like what we used to feed the goats instead. Could easily be what they stick into it, but i've still got reservations throwing it in mine.
.... so i'm keen for you to throw it into yours and let me know how it goes h34r: :lol:


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## welly2

technobabble66 said:


> Tasted the Lyles Treacle recently?
> It's like straight molasses.
> I assumed it'd be like a more intense version of CSR Golden Syrup (cf the Lyles GS, which is v tasty, btw). Nope. Like what we used to feed the goats instead. Could easily be what they stick into it, but i've still got reservations throwing it in mine.
> .... so i'm keen for you to throw it into yours and let me know how it goes h34r: :lol:


Ah, what's the worst that could happen! Actually, the more I read the more I find it would be suitable for a stout but not necessarily for a TOP clone. Might have to rethink it! Perhaps some demerama sugar. I'll have to do a bit more research!


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## technobabble66

*On to the choice of Yeast:*

I'm fairly convinced the yeast is especially important to get the fruit flavours in a TOP clone (kinda obvious for an UK ale, but even more so for TOP).
So i'm particularly keen to narrow the options down to a few likely winners.
However, i currently know very little about the subtle (ester) differences between the various UK ale strains (and are currently hampered by everyone seemingly out of stock of most of the likely candidates :angry: ).

Anywho, the list seems to be maybe:
Wyeast - 1469 (shout-out to Bribie!), 1968, 1318, 1028, 1728
White Labs - 2,4,6,7,17, 22, 23, 26, 51
(As taken from suggestions to style by the respective companies).

Of these, the likeliest candidates from my reading might be:
WY1469, ... then WLP004, WY1318, WY1968, WLP006.

Anyone who's used these care to comment on what each of these brings and what might be the better selection(s) for a TOP clone?

EDIT: from the post below, the likely 2 would be 1469 & 1187 ... but i may still need some back-up options :unsure:


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## manticle

1187 ringwood


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## technobabble66

Oh yeah, Ringwood. 
Bugger, another one to add to the list :blink:
Thanks mants! 

When it says "distinct fruit esters" in the 1187 description, could you suggest which particular fruit they're talking about?

e.g.: WLP-022 (i think it was) sounded perfect until i dredged through the feedback to see a few people labelling the "fruit esters" from it being largely "peach". Which would be great in other UK ales, but not right for a TOP, i think.


....more reading later, i've scoured a few AHB threads on it and there's mention of "stone fruits" and "plum." Does that sound about right?

I notice that the yeast possibly originates from the East Yorkshire region, so that'd probably make 1187 & 1469 the prime contenders, at the mo'


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## Mardoo

Fruit, mate, fruit! What are ya', a bit posh? 

Usually it's stonefruit with most English yeasts I've tried. However I'm getting the Burton one that includes pear. Sounds yum.


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## technobabble66

Only a tad, my old fruit! [emoji6]

Yeah I'm probably being slightly pedantic in trying to avoid the pear, oak, vanilla, peach descriptors. They do make the UK yeasts sound v tasty though!

Hey, I noticed WLP005 is meant to be the equivalent of 1187. 
Does that play out in anyone's experience with the 2?


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## technobabble66

One more quick query.

What's anyone else's opinion on Target? I've never used it.

I don't have any (amongst the mountain of hops i do have :unsure: ), so i'll need to drive to Grain&Grape to get it. (~90mins round trip).
I'm only going to need 15g to FWH with. 

I have no experience with this hops, so is it likely to have any noticeable impact that the Challenger & Fuggles won't? Or can i safely sub in something else?
Or just as easily stick to the Challenger+Fuggles combo?


PS: mants, did you get back to trying the TOP?


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## manticle

Hasn't landed yet. Maybe today or tomorrow.


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## technobabble66

Ok B)

Thoughts on Target? Worth the effort?


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## manticle

I have used target a long time ago when attemptiong a young's special london ale homage.
From memory it works in both bittering and flavour.

Citrus comes to mind but you get that in spades from challenger. Is the hop profile in the commercial version prominent?


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## technobabble66

Yeah, the YCH website suggests Citrus Spicy for Target ... which is what i thought Challenger was as well. So i was hoping a could skip the Target and just amp up the Challenger & Fuggles. ( ... though their description for Challenger is Fruity Herbal Cedar :mellow: ).
But from memory TOP has a (noticeable) spicy undertone, so i'm keen to hit some spicy notes in my clone. Should Challenger do that you think?

Similarly, i haven't tried TOP in a little while - i've got a bottle from McCoppins sitting in the fridge, but haven't had a crack at it as i've had a slight cold for a few days since getting it. I'll hopefully try it tonight or tmrw and gauge whether what & how much of the hops are prominent. I just was hoping to get my driving out of the way today while a had a window to do it in.


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## manticle

Challenger for me is fruity marmalade. If you notice the spicy undertone and equate that with a hop character, use target.
Or use it next time if you think it's missing in the final brew.


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## technobabble66

OK.
Thanks!

I've got buckets of Hall Mitt in the freezer.
Do you think i could use 15g of Hall Mitt to bring in a little spiciness, and crank up the Challenger (& bring in a little Fuggles, all as FWH, to compensate. Plus keep a reasonable chunk of Challenger & Fuggles for cube-hopping.

Do you think that might work ok, or am i ignoring something in Hall Mitt that might turn out weird?



So the hopping schedule i'm considering is currently looking like:
15g each of Challenger, Fuggles, & Hall Mitt all at FWH
20g Challenger & 10g Fuggles @ 20mins (cubed)
(~37-38 IBU)

(the prev version was replace the Hall mitt with 15g Target, & drop the FWH Challenger & Fuggles to 10g each)


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## Spiesy

technobabble66 said:


> Only a tad, my old fruit! [emoji6]
> 
> Yeah I'm probably being slightly pedantic in trying to avoid the pear, oak, vanilla, peach descriptors. They do make the UK yeasts sound v tasty though!
> 
> Hey, I noticed WLP005 is meant to be the equivalent of 1187.
> Does that play out in anyone's experience with the 2?


Was just going to say, I find that 005 gives more fruit than 002 or 007. It's my "go-to" yeast for ESB's.


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## manticle

If you want a nice old/strong bitter, by all means play around but if you want as close to the commercial as you can, accept no subs.
Hall mitt is lovely but nothing like target. For me it's lemon/lemon zest and a hint of floral.


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## technobabble66

Thanks. No hall mitt then. I'll stick to the challenger and fuggles that I already have. Adjust next time. 
Bah, it's going to a case swap anyway! [emoji185][emoji1]

Thanks speisy. Sounds good to me!


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## manticle

Arrived yesterday so upright on top of the fridge to settle, drunk at room temp from a pint glass.

Firstly I do not think maris would be out of place, contrary to MHB earlier. When I first started AG brewing I used JW malts. After a bit I switched to country of origin (mainly) so uk for uk, belgian for belgian, german for german, etc.

I found the same recipes that had previously worked had an added depth with specific malts and the big one initially was a porter using maris instead of jw ale. This reminds me of that character. I do agree with MHB that maris use is probably widely overstated, that it may not be in this beer and that is does have a distinct character, particularly discernible in pales. However I do not agree that that character would be out of place here. Regardless; whatever you do, use a uk pale base- gp, maris, optic, etc. Do not sub us or au or german or belgian - the base is distinct enough that none of those will work as you intend.

Roast barley or chocolate malt are likely in very, very small amounts - mostly colour but enough to add an edge that cuts back from being sweet. From the red hue, I'd lean towards RB. Carb is low and body is full.

I get minimal hop character - nothing spicy, nothing really citrus either. Fuggles, challenger and/or target would all be fine.

I'd add no treacle - I think full bodied mash and age add complexity to a very simple, well balanced beer.

Finally 1187 or 1469 would do this justice in my opinion.
Hope that helps. Simple ingredients, good yeast, full bodied mash and age are my summarised tips.

Bear in mind; this is all from one single bottle from one single bottle shop*. BB date october this year.

*And one single palate.


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## technobabble66

Awesomeness. 
Thanks a truckload, mants!! 
Most appreciated having someone who knows much more about matching ingredients to resulting flavours review the likely components of TOP. ... And someone who has a truckload more experience with UK beers & yeasts!

Well it sounds like the recipe proposed earlier is roughly similar to what you outline. I've tweaked it slightly since posting, and I'll sub out the Target for this batch & go either 005 or a resurrected 1469. 
So I'll post the updated version ASAP when I start brewing it. 
Cheers!


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## technobabble66

FWIW, i finally cracked my bottle of TOP i had sitting in the fridge for the last week.
I guess the short version is i'd repeat what manticle has outlined above.
My nose/tastebuds were a bit on the blink - seemed to struggle detecting hops from an APA or much from a pinot gris, so not really a great scenario to review the elements of something i want to clone.

Basically, i found a light caramel element to be prominent. Not sweet, and balanced by a smooth, mild bitterness.
Virtually no roast or toast element.
No noticeable spice or citrus/fruit element, though the way the caramel comes out may be influenced by a subtle citrus or fruitiness.
TBH, the caramel element seems reminiscent of the influence of EKG on crystal malt - though maybe i've been incorrect assuming that's what produced this flavour in previous beers.
Solid mouthfeel, without being too heavy or light. I wonder if the original version was heavier both in mouthfeel as well as abv. Carb level is on the low side, as expected.

So all up, the hops have very subtle if any presence. The malt elements have a certain "simple purity" in flavour, which make me suspect manticle might be correct with keeping it all very simple - base + crystal + bit of RB/choc.

My big question is now *which Crystal to use?*? - I have Simpsons Light, Medium, Dark and Heritage Crystal Malt.
I'd intended to use the Heritage, however i've not used it before.
The "light" caramel flavour i got out of the TOP makes me wonder if i should use the Light Crystal instead of the Heritage or Med. Anyone got thoughts on this??



PS, i compared this to my previous TOP clone (various things went wrong with it, but i thought, what the hell). The colour seemed almost the same, at ~50 EBC.


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## manticle

Heritage is a lot like blending light, medium and dark together if that helps at all.


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## technobabble66

Hmmm. Thanks!
Not sure, tbh. 

I guess I'll have to try it and see what happens.


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## Chridech

Have been following this thread with interest. Very partial to Old Peculier. The label description states pale malt, crystal, roasted barley and Fuggles as has been established. The ingredient list below also states wheat. Can't taste it myself, unless there is a tiny bit in there for head retention (but there is not much head anyway). Is this just the ingredient list that Theakston slot in on all their labels?


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## technobabble66

Hey Chridech,
Yeah, i'm really not sure about their labelling.
I'd assume they're not fibbing - i.e.: their spiel is "kinda" accurate, probably on the main ingredients. Whereas the "Contains" bit is probably for legal liability - e.g.: so the gluten intolerant know not to touch it.
So i'd guess there *may* be some wheat in the recipe, as opposed to something like "made in the vicinity of". But who knows?!

However, i have to admit i can't taste it at all. So for my next attempt at TOP, i'll be leaving it out. Keeping it as simple as possible, then tweak later.


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## Mardoo

If there is wheat it's quite likely to be torrified.


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## Chridech

Fourstar said:


> taken from the Real Ale Almanac...
> 
> pale, crystal, cereal, sugar, fuggles and other Bittering hop dry hopped 29 IBU.
> 
> i'd suspect the sugars take up majority of the dark colour. e.g. treacle or burnt caramel. As for cereal its probably unmalted grain e.g. torrified wheat. Yeast id be looking at 1469 or something pushing esters (1968). Not Belgian.
> 
> maybe something like.
> 
> 1.058 OG
> 
> 70% Maris Otter
> 10% Torrified wheat
> 7% Dark Crystal
> 5% Light Crystal
> 8% Burnt caramel or treacle
> 
> Challenger 20IBU @ 60min
> Fuggles 9IBU @ 15min
> Fuggles Dry Hop 7 days, (1.5g to the L)


Many learned AHB brewer has advised against using treacle/golden syrup/candi sugar but Fourstar's suggestion from the Real Ale Almanac looks intriguing. Will hopefully find time to brew a TOP clone shortly.


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## technobabble66

Half way through this, TOP clone #3b
Colour is not as red as i wanted, more a brown, so hopefully something magical occurs to correct this, otherwise i'll need to tweak this further.

Recipe i went with is:

*Dirty Ol' Bastard, TOP clone #3b - Old Ale*

Vol = 24L (est. for 80% efficiency)
OG = 1.060 
FG = 1.017
IBU = 35
EBC = 47
Alc% = 6.0

5.41kg (90.2%) TFFMMO
0.36 kg (6%) Simpson's Med Crystal
0.18kg (3%) Simspon's Roasted Barley
0.05kg (0.8%) Wey Acidulated

20g each of Fuggles & Challenger @ FWH
15g each of Fuggles & Challenger @ 20mins (cube-hopped)

2.8g CaCl2, 1.4g CaSO4, 1.0 MgSO4 into Mash 
2.2g CaCl2, 1.1g CaSO4, 0.8g MgSO4, 0.3g Citric acid into Sparge
1g CaCl2, 0.5g CaSO4, 0.5g MgSO4 into Boil
(for Melbourne water)

Yeast nutrient & Irish Moss in at 10mins

55/65/72/78 for 5/70/30/2
Mash = 20L
Sparge= 16L

Yeast = 1469 - courtesy of Mardoo, Thanks v much!!!

Drew off 4.2L of first running and boiled down to ~0.5-1L to caramelise. Currently looking like thick, dark LME

The plan is basically just to do this simple recipe, see how it compares to the original, then tweak it to get closer.
Already, given the initial colour, i'd wonder if the Crystal should be Light rather than Med; but we'll see how it turns out.


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## technobabble66

Eeeeediiiiiot !!!
Just realised i intended to use Heritage crystal, but grabbed the Med crystal instead while operating on automatic.
God. Damn. It.


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## Keatsy

Realise this is an old thread but how did the brew go? Im keen to try and make a TOP clone


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## duncbrewer

I have it on my list. The only clone I did of it was From Dave Lines book brewing beers like those you buy. Think the recipe was mostly extract with some steeped dark grains definitely remember the dark treacle, can't even remember if there was a boil. Sadly the book is with a friend in the UK ( for the last 5 years along with my Graham Wheelers). 
But it was the best beer I made in those days ( last century). 
Have gone all grain now and would like a crack at it, will have to do some digging as well.


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## Keatsy

Cheers


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## dkilleen

Keatsy said:


> Cheers


I brew this version - taken from the CAMRA recipe book. I use the malt extract method which works well. Certainly my favourite brew.


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## duncbrewer

@dkilleen 
Thanks for that, I'll try the all grain, shame they don't suggest which type of crystal malt or whether light or dark choclate malt. 
I suspect erring towards the darker for both really.
Will have to track down some challenger hops. Will update once brewed. 
Just the weather for a pint of this by a warm log fire, windy cold and wet outside.


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## dkilleen




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## Grmblz

@duncbrewer Have a quick look at this Old Peculier clone - BrewBoard


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## MHB

Duncanbrewer, I would go with Medium Crystal - a UK one, and just regular UK chocolate malt.

Every time I read a description of TOP people say Fruity and Peppery flavours. Always wondered how T-58 would go as a yeast. I know it throws some phenolics but keeping it cool should suppress them some.
Mark


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## duncbrewer

Thank you for those tips. I suppose some pressure might suppress those phenolics as well.


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## MHB

Ya Think?


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## duncbrewer

I'd rather open ferment an ale, pressure seems to suppress everything the yeast makes both good and bad related to character.


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## yankinoz

duncbrewer said:


> @dkilleen
> Thanks for that, I'll try the all grain, shame they don't suggest which type of crystal malt or whether light or dark choclate malt.
> I suspect erring towards the darker for both really.
> Will have to track down some challenger hops. Will update once brewed.
> Just the weather for a pint of this by a warm log fire, windy cold and wet outside.



Unless otherwise stated or in pale beers, crystal malt in Brirish recipes usually means medium crystal. Dark chocolate malt gives quite a bit of roast. Old P has been around a lot longer than Challenger hops. I like Challenger in both UK and some US styles, but in that amount and in an early addition I suspect you could go with anything that provides smooth bittering and is not overwhelming.

Choice of yeast will matter more. Search some boards on that.

Disclaimer: I dislike OP and would never brew it.


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## Eddy Monsoon

duncbrewer said:


> Will have to track down some challenger hops.



Hoppy days have 10% off at the mo. Was looking at it yesterday









Challenger Hop Pellets T-90 - Hoppy Days Brewing Supplies


Traditional hop for English ales. A dual purpose variety, & used in the boil & as a cask addition. Also used in American IPA's. Mild to moderately intense spice with elements of evergreen and ripe fruit; adds a bright, grassy character as a dry hop. Blends well with earthy or floral varieties.




hoppydaysbrewingsupplies.com.au


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## duncbrewer

Thanks @yankinoz 

Yeast choice I will ponder as well, mostly want to make it as haven't made it this century and to see what it's like all grain. I think the brewers have changed the recipe a lot over the years so I might be chasing an old rainbow if I did a comparison with a new bottled variant. I remember it being a very dark beer yet it looks more like an ESB colour now when I see it on the website.


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## Coalminer




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## duncbrewer

That's a nice looking glass, though I suspect the beer is a bit below cellar temperature. The cold filtered is a new thing on their bottles.


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## Keatsy

This fella has just carbonated in bottles and I had a taste last night. Only difference to the recipe posted is I got way more efficiency and its about 6.3% instead of the 5.6%. Its still very young but I'm thinking I should of gone with Roasted Barley instead of the chocolate, get a real chocolatey flavour that doesn't seem to blend with the fuggles and give the sweet flavours people talk about. Its a bloody nice drop and will go down well on cold nights but think I'd definitely swap out the chocolate for roasted barley next time. Also used the Windsor yeast as I couldn't get wlp002 or 005 from the LHBS cause of damn covid etc etc. Ferment got quite warm (24-26) by accident but this hasn't seemed to produce many esters like I would of thought. Its almost as neutral as Nottingham just less attenuative. Maybe the chocolate is covering some of them up, maybe some age will blend it all together.


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## duncbrewer

@Keatsy 
That Windsor can't ferment maltotriose sugars I think so it leaves a sweeter beer. I think dudes brew fermented with windsor and kveik hot and didn't get many esters from the windsor. They expected an ester bomb in their stout.


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## MHB

Windsor is a great if much maligned yeast. The trick with it is to use 1g/L, do that and it behaves very well less can be problematic.
As with any yeast most of the flavours are produced early in the ferment, it’s the temperature at/around pitching and during the early reproductive phase that really impacts on your esters, cooler producing less, warmer more in general.

I would avoid Roast Barley, everything I can find says Roast Malt, Roast Barley is roasted Un-Malted barley and tastes very different. Black Patent is the same colour as roast barley and its flavour is much more in line with what I taste in the beer. Caraffa Special 3 would be worth a try; being de-husked it will be a little softer on the palate again just as black as roast barley and black patent (1000-1200 EBC).

Old Peculiar is something of a personal favourite, always called it my benchmark black beer, it’s been a while might have to dig one up and get reacquainted.
Mark


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## duncbrewer

@MHB 
Agreed I remember it very much as a black beer, but that picture next to the bottle and the pictures on the web site hint at a bitter beer colour rather than a more to stout hue that the grey cells recollect.
Would Eclipse wheat malt be another option ?


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## MHB

Another malt I love (well the Weyermann version anyway), great in black beers, and like Carafa lacking a husk it is much more mellow than an equivalent roast husked barley.
That said I don’t taste it in TOP, I get black patent so if I were making a "Clone" would stay with Black Patent, if I were designing a black beer would be all over the Roast Wheat.
Bit like the discussion about Maris earlier in this thread, Maris is a great malt, I just don’t taste it in this beer.
Mark


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## duncbrewer

I agree it's also a bit too new a malt given the age of OP for that beer.


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## Keatsy

MHB said:


> Windsor is a great if much maligned yeast. The trick with it is to use 1g/L, do that and it behaves very well less can be problematic.
> As with any yeast most of the flavours are produced early in the ferment, it’s the temperature at/around pitching and during the early reproductive phase that really impacts on your esters, cooler producing less, warmer more in general.
> 
> I would avoid Roast Barley, everything I can find says Roast Malt, Roast Barley is roasted Un-Malted barley and tastes very different. Black Patent is the same colour as roast barley and its flavour is much more in line with what I taste in the beer. Caraffa Special 3 would be worth a try; being de-husked it will be a little softer on the palate again just as black as roast barley and black patent (1000-1200 EBC).
> 
> Old Peculiar is something of a personal favourite, always called it my benchmark black beer, it’s been a while might have to dig one up and get reacquainted.
> Mark



I usually go through hoppy days for my ingredients, they have the carafas but not black patent. Any ideas who in Brisbane would do black patent in small amounts?


----------

