# Urn For Biab



## wbosher (19/10/12)

Hey guys,

Would this be good enough to get me started doing BIAB?

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=523731037


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## bignath (19/10/12)

wbosher said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Would this be good enough to get me started doing BIAB?
> 
> http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=523731037



You could do it, you may either have to settle for slightly smaller batches, or brew higher gravity and dilute, or do a manual sparge.

the simplicity of BIAB though is it's simplicity, and with that in mind, it's a borderline suitability for capacity.

Are you bottling or kegging?

A typical single batch pre boil volume for a 20-21lt batch (to fill a keg and account for some losses) is around 26/27lt's. 

Your definitely gonna cut it close, but if you go over gravity and dilute during or after the boil, OR do a separate sparge and add runnings back to the urn, you'll be ok.

EDIT: 
Hmmmmm, just saw it's only 1500W. That's gonna take some time to get anywhere.
I probably wouldn't bother with it considering it's borderline size, and under powered element. Would probably be fine for a sporting club if they got there hours before a game to load it up and switch it on, but it would take ages i reckon to heat for strike water, and then raise to boil, and it may also really struggle to actually boil.


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## wbosher (19/10/12)

What about this?

I'm bottling.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/business-farming-...n-523560770.htm


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## bignath (19/10/12)

wbosher said:


> What about this?
> 
> http://www.trademe.co.nz/business-farming-...n-523560770.htm



that one's a better bet.

At 38lt you can BIAB high strength beers easily for a standard batch, won't need to sparge.....too easy.

Only thing is the power capacity on that one. Ideally i'd be aiming for 2200-2400W. 

If you had access to an immersion element, and could pick this urn up for not much more than the $100 current bid, then you'd be in business.


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## wbosher (19/10/12)

It says "Adjustable Thermostat from 30 110 degrees", so I would think it should be able to boil...I hope.


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## bignath (19/10/12)

wbosher said:


> It says "Adjustable Thermostat from 30 110 degrees", so I would think it should be able to boil...I hope.




yeah, but my car stereo is 4x50W (200w output), and no bloody way is it twice as loud as my 100W Marshall.

the muso's on here will understand...

Wort boils differently than water.

They may not have "rated" that at full volume capacity either.

They most likely will not have taken into account the elevation above or below sea level where you are located.

Trust me, 1500W in a cheap urn will seriously struggle to handle 26/27lt of wort.


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## wbosher (19/10/12)

I'm not likely to be doing any more than around 20-23L at a time, do you think it could handle that?

I am a muso, or at least used to be. There's a lot more around than I thought.


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## bignath (19/10/12)

wbosher said:


> I'm not likely to be doing any more than around 20-23L at a time, do you think it could handle that?



Preboil volume or finished volume?

who really knows.... i'm just not sure id take a chance.


I once pulled the trigger on a cheap "tea/coffee/crabcooker" urn on ebay. If you do a search you'll find numerous threads about this specific item.

From memory, it was 36lt, rated at 30-110deg, heating power was supposed to be 2200W. It had two elements, one 800W and the other 1200W.

Was a big piece of shit, and MOST other people that also bought one agree.

I've learnt my lesson with urns and power vs capacity. Either go with a crown or birko, or get a pot of whatever capacity you think you'll need after factoring in losses, and build an urn yourself. Elements are everywhere to put in a big ass pot.

Whilst it may in fact work (my cheap box of shit did for several brews), there is a big chance that any cheaper urn other than industry standard brands (crown, birko) will shit themselves very early on in it's career.

I'd probably walk away from it.

I've effectively made two digitally controlled "urns" over the past few years for my Single Vessel Recirculating BIAB rig in my signature. 

Was really easy to do, and apart from blowing a cheap $8 element in the second brew by allowing it to be switched on with no liquid near it, neither rig has failed me yet.


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## wbosher (19/10/12)

Ok, your probably right, I'll leave it alone.

The only problem is I don't see too many others around, and ebay is not really a goer. The shipping for something like that from Aus or the US is crazy.

Might just look at getting a big stock pot and a gas burner for the garage. My wife would have a fit if I did it inside if the smell is as bad as people here say it is. :lol:


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## bignath (19/10/12)

wbosher said:


> Ok, your probably right, I'll leave it alone.
> 
> The only problem is I don't see too many others around, and ebay is not really a goer. The shipping for something like that from Aus or the US is crazy.
> 
> Might just look at getting a big stock pot and a gas burner for the garage. My wife would have a fit if I did it inside if the smell is as bad as people here say it is. :lol:



It's not just the "smell" that makes gas brewing inside a bad idea, it's the exact opposite.

Running a gas burner inside (or more specifically ANY enclosed space with poor ventilation) increases the risk of asphyxyating (spelling??) yourself....running out of oxygen.

I'm pretty sure that the gas burns odourless, and then takes all the available oxygen with it. I could have that wrong.

there is some conjecture of whether or not it's actually a problem, but the people that think it's a serious concern grossly outweigh the ones who don't, so therefore, i would advise to never use a gas burner designed for a huge pot inside.

If you've got the access to brew in the garage, you're all set with a big pot and a bag. Happy days.


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## wbosher (19/10/12)

Yeah, I definitely be doing it in the garage.

Not sure whether to get a gas burner, not sure if it could boil 20L of water, or get an immersion element.

Don't really know what I'm looking for at this point.

Maybe something like this - 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Domestic-electric-...=item871373a6ed


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## Diesel80 (19/10/12)

wbosher said:


> Yeah, I definitely be doing it in the garage.
> 
> Not sure whether to get a gas burner, not sure if it could boil 20L of water, or get an immersion element.
> 
> ...




Get a real one - 2400w, 10A.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Portable-Travel...=item4ab5c28aff

Cheers,
D80


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## thedragon (19/10/12)

Wbosher, I was lucky enough to pick up a new-ish crown 40L for $200 from a brewer that wanted to upgrade. It's a great piece of equipment. I keep my batches to about 20L as it shortens the brew day - perhaps false economy but it works for me. Keep your eyes peeled, something will come up. It'll be better than buying a POS that you'll need to replace within a short period.


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## wbosher (19/10/12)

I just got myself a 50L stockpot for $40, that should be plenty big enough for _any_ boil over.

Now looking for an LPG burner, guess I need at least a two ring?

Next mission is either a wort cooler or a bigass tub (for an ice bath) that I can dunk my new pot into. It's just a few mm too big to go into the laundry tub.

This is getting expensive and my wife is giving me funny looks. It'll be worth it though, can't wait to get into some AG.  

EDIT: Sorry Diesel, missed your post. I might go for the gas burner for now, much cheaper. Wifey...funny looks...I don't want to become a born again virgin.


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## bignath (19/10/12)

Good score mate, that's the shizzle..

I used to use a 50lt Keg as my HLT and another as my Kettle (boiler) on a three ring gas burner.

Did the job very easily, had to back off the largest ring to maybe 50-75% capacity to boil. That was doing 46lt preboil, which was including losses, big enough for a double batch.

You'll be able to pick up a new 3 ring burner for well under $100 (often closer to $50) and it'll gladly run off your bbq bottle with a standard regulator.

Dont believe the hype that you NEED a regulator upgrade to get a 3 ring to boil 50lt's.......it'll do it no worries at all, and pretty quickly too.

The ONLY problem with a rig like that, is that you will need to keep an eye out for boilovers if doing a double batch. They will tend to sneak up on you.

but as you said, if your just doing singles, you'll be absolutely fine.


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## wbosher (19/10/12)

Thanks Nath. Got my eye on a 3 ring burner for around $70. I think I can use my BBQ reg for it, got a question on the auction but should be good.

All I'll need then is a way to cool the wort, but if I go by Nick's post (fckn awesome by the way  ), I can let it cool naturally.

Getting there...never thought I'd be doing AG so soon but Nick's BIAB thread had inspired me big time.


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## wbosher (19/10/12)

How does this sound for a first brew, got it off a local site for 1st timers. I changed the hops though.
For a 23 Litre recipe 

4.6Kg Pale Malt
250g Crystal Malt 

20g Cascade @ 60min
20g Cascade @ 40min
20g Cascade @ 20min

In case you hadn't guessed I've got some Cascade already (in fact it's all I've got).  

According to Brewmate, this will give an IBU of about 45, but with the 20 min addition should provide some flavour as well.

Any suggestions welcome. Shit I can't wait to do my first AG.


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## bignath (19/10/12)

wbosher said:


> How does this sound for a first brew, got it off a local site for 1st timers. I changed the hops though.
> For a 23 Litre recipe
> 
> 4.6Kg Pale Malt
> ...



Looks good mate, should be a tasty beer.

What yeast are you gonna use on it?

Got a way to crush your grain, or does your local shop do it?

All you need is a bag to mash in, and remember to lift the bag a little if your gonna apply heat during the mash. Or you could just shut off the gas just before you throw the grain in, and put the lid on and walk away.

You don't want to scorch your bag  

Oh, and take records of your first few batches. As many as you can, even if you think it's not important. The more recording you do in the early stages, the quicker you'll get your "rig" dialled in for consistent booze production.


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## wbosher (19/10/12)

Yeah, the LHBS can crush the grain for me.

Looking at US-05 yeast, might have a go at harvesting my current brew.

Yep, need a bag and still need to get the burner, soon I hope.

Thanks for the advice.  

Should be able to get this on next weekend...if the kids will let me.


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## indorat (23/10/12)

I'm a little tired of messing around with gas... Does this seem like a good deal? 40L Birko


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## Amber Fluid (23/10/12)

JEG said:


> I'm a little tired of messing around with gas... Does this seem like a good deal? 40L Birko



Not knowing the price of a new Birko, I got a new 40L Crown Urn from a local shop for only $260 and Craftbrewer sell them for $274. ($259 for the exposed element)
That makes $285 + postage (and be winning bidder) a bit expensive imo.


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## wbosher (23/10/12)

I think I'm almost ready to go now. Ordered the grains and bag today. So hopefully by the weekend I'll have:

50L stockpot
3 ring gas burner
BIAB bag
Big tub for cooling (although this may not be necessary, can cool naturally overnight apparently)
Pale Ale Malt Grain (EBC 3~4) 4.6kg
Whole Malt Grain Crystal 300g
Cascade hop pellets
Saf US-05 Yeast
Irish Moss 
No kids, for a few hours anyway. Although this may be wishful thinking.

I think that's all I'll need.


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## Jay Cee (23/10/12)

JEG said:


> I'm a little tired of messing around with gas... Does this seem like a good deal? 40L Birko



If you buy this, I suggest you confirm with the seller that it's for a 40litre model. The photograph is not of a 40 lire urn.


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## Crusty (23/10/12)

JEG said:


> I'm a little tired of messing around with gas... Does this seem like a good deal? 40L Birko



Not too bad but this is a better deal. I am using one for Biab & it's awesome.


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## Amber Fluid (23/10/12)

wbosher said:


> I think I'm almost ready to go now. Ordered the grains and bag today. So hopefully by the weekend I'll have:
> 
> 50L stockpot
> 3 ring gas burner
> ...



Just a few things I suggest you think about prior to starting, if you haven't already....
1/ Skyhook?
2/ Mill?
3/ Chill/no chill?


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## wbosher (24/10/12)

Amber Fluid said:


> Just a few things I suggest you think about prior to starting, if you haven't already....
> 1/ Skyhook?
> 2/ Mill?
> 3/ Chill/no chill?




Skyhook - Yep, I've thought of this. May not be doing it this time, but will definately do it for future brews.

Mill - Same again, not this time but will look at it later. My LHBS can crush the grains for me.

Chil/no Chill - This will depend on how I go for time. I will probably have to do this on Friday night after the kids are in bed, so if it's getting too late I'll probably cover it up and let it cool naturally on the garage floor and pitch the yeast the next day. If I'm doing ok for time I'll cool in an ice bath and pitch that night.


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## gunbrew (24/10/12)

No Chill works well.
Once finished your brewing, let it cool a little then just put cling wrap over the top, I also wrap over the sight tube and the tap.
Leave it for one or 2 days depending on the temptature.
Then tip into fermenter airiate and pitch yeast.
I have brewed more than 50 batches with this method in birko urn.
Nice and stress free.

When I first started I was trying to cool in an ice bath etc, it takes for ever and was stressing me out.
Probably not easy to do unless you have copper coil chiller or a counter flow chiller.

Insulate your Urn for thr mash and the boil, take insulation off at flame out to let it cool.

Another tip that it took me a while to work out, no need to do it 1st time but perhaps for later.
If you recirculate the wort through the grain your beer will be a lot more clear.
To do this I use stainless mesh bags and pour the wort through the grain in them after mash out (dont do it past 78 degrees).
See pic of a mate helping.
One brew in a birko and one brew in a keggle with element, both with stainless mesh bags.
Have a choice brew.
gunbrew.




wbosher said:


> Skyhook - Yep, I've thought of this. May not be doing it this time, but will definately do it for future brews.
> 
> Mill - Same again, not this time but will look at it later. My LHBS can crush the grains for me.
> 
> Chil/no Chill - This will depend on how I go for time. I will probably have to do this on Friday night after the kids are in bed, so if it's getting too late I'll probably cover it up and let it cool naturally on the garage floor and pitch the yeast the next day. If I'm doing ok for time I'll cool in an ice bath and pitch that night.


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## Bribie G (24/10/12)

No chill would be ideal in Wellie, I've been there about this time of year and popping the cube out of the door overnight would be perfect. 

Skyhook is easy and cheap with some clothesline and a cheap "awning pulley" from a hardware store. Or if you want a smoother system get two pulleys and Google up on how to string them together to give you a lifting "advantage". A cleat fixed to the wall nearby is a must to tie off the cord for safety when draining the bag. 

The perfect solution is to have a ceiling hatch in your brewing area and just put a 4x2 over the gap and hang a pulley from there. My last two places have been ideal with the ceiling hatch being in the garage, and in my current place here God has decreed that the ceiling hatch is precisely above where the brewery is going to be set up. 

B) B) B)


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## wbosher (24/10/12)

Thanks guys, yep might go with the no chill, sounds easier. Doesn't cooling it quickly make for a clearer beer though?

I don't have a skyhook or any pully set up, but I'm brewing in the garage where there are plenty of rafters directly above, so if need be I'll sling a rope over that.


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## gunbrew (24/10/12)

After you have fermented the beer and it is ready to bottle or keg you can "crash chill".
This means put the fermenter in the fridge at just above freezing for a day or a few.
This will make all the yeast drop out of your beer to the bottom of the fermenter giving you clear beer.



wbosher said:


> Thanks guys, yep might go with the no chill, sounds easier. Doesn't cooling it quickly make for a clearer beer though?
> 
> I don't have a skyhook or any pully set up, but I'm brewing in the garage where there are plenty of rafters directly above, so if need be I'll sling a rope over that.


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## wbosher (24/10/12)

gunbrew said:


> After you have fermented the beer and it is ready to bottle or keg you can "crash chill".
> This means put the fermenter in the fridge at just above freezing for a day or a few.
> This will make all the yeast drop out of your beer to the bottom of the fermenter giving you clear beer.




I don't have the ability to do that, my fridge in the garage isn't big enough. Although I was able to get my current brew down to about 10oC using a big tub of ice water for a couple of days, that seems to have worked to clear up the cloudyness.

I read that a quick cool after boiling reduces the haze due to cold break, but doesn't seem to bother too many people.


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## gunbrew (24/10/12)

Sounds right,
I have notice with no chilling in the urn that after one day it's quite clear.
After 2 days it's even more clear as everythig settles.
Depending on ambient temprature it takes one or 2 days to cool in the urn.



I read that a quick cool after boiling reduces the haze due to cold break, but doesn't seem to bother too many people.
[/quote]


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## bum (24/10/12)

gunbrew said:


> I have notice with no chilling in the urn that after one day it's quite clear.
> After 2 days it's even more clear as everythig settles.


2 DAYS?!

Dude. Buy a cube. You're seriously courting danger.


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## gunbrew (24/10/12)

Went 3 days once... I also like to live dangerously... haha.
Up to batch 94 with about 70 of those being all grain and no chilled in the birko or the keggle with shrink wrap.
Very comfortable with this method.
Cheers.




bum said:


> 2 DAYS?!
> 
> Dude. Buy a cube. You're seriously courting danger.


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## rippa (24/10/12)

so, just to clarify (pun), your wort is sitting in your urn (wrapped in plastic) with the break and the hops for up to 3 days post boil?


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## gunbrew (24/10/12)

My standard operating procedure is leave it for one day.
Trouble is sometimes warm weather means it takes 2 day to cool down.
The once that I left it for 3 days, I was freaking that it would be infected, fortunately it was ok.

I finish the boil having added all my hops.
Turn the urn off.
Wait 5 mins till theres a bit less steam then cling wrap, several layers on top and also cover the tap and sight tube.



rippa said:


> so, just to clarify (pun), your wort is sitting in your urn (wrapped in plastic) with the break and the hops for up to 3 days post boil?


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## wbosher (24/10/12)

gunbrew said:


> My standard operating procedure is leave it for one day.
> Trouble is sometimes warm weather means it takes 2 day to cool down.
> The once that I left it for 3 days, I was freaking that it would be infected, fortunately it was ok.



I can understand leaving it overnight for convenience, especially if time is an issue...but two or three days? If the temp isn't coming down, why not just dump it in an ice bath (or use a wort chiller) and be done with it?


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## Blitzer (24/10/12)

You would definitely want your hops in a bag you can remove I would think. Otherwise you would have to account for the extra "cube / birko hopping"


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## bum (24/10/12)

Blitzer said:


> Otherwise you would have to account for the extra "cube / birko hopping"


It makes no real practical difference. Isomerisation continues whether the plant matter is still there or not.


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## wbosher (24/10/12)

Got the grains, but they weren't crushed like I asked for. Used the wife's "Magic Bullet" which can grind coffee, and used that. Took me over an hour to do it all but it looks ok. It's a bit fine, but looks very similar to Nick JD's photo in his biab thread.

My pot and burner also showed up tonight, but the regulator doesn't fit the burner...should have paid the extra $20 and got one with it. Oh well, down to Mitre10 in the weekend to get another one.  

Hopefully be ready to go this weekend, or next.


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## Black Devil Dog (24/10/12)

wbosher said:


> Got the grains, but they weren't crushed like I asked for. Used the wife's "Magic Bullet" which can grind coffee, and used that. Took me over an hour to do it all but it looks ok. It's a bit fine, but looks very similar to Nick JD's photo in his biab thread.
> 
> My pot and burner also showed up tonight, but the regulator doesn't fit the burner...should have paid the extra $20 and got one with it. Oh well, down to Mitre10 in the weekend to get another one.
> 
> Hopefully be ready to go this weekend, or next.




Crikey!!! Nearly showered the computer in beer!!! My wife's "Magic Bullet" doesn't grind coffee but it sure as heck does some "grinding". Not sure what she'd say if I started using it.


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## wbosher (24/10/12)

Black Devil Dog said:


> Crikey!!! Nearly showered the computer in beer!!! My wife's "Magic Bullet" doesn't grind coffee but it sure as heck does some "grinding". Not sure what she'd say if I started using it.



Different magic bullet :lol:

This one - http://www.amazon.com/Magic-Bullet-MBR-170...s/dp/B001WAKFDY

NOT the one you're thinking of. I know, my wife's got one too.


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## bignath (24/10/12)

gunbrew said:


> If you recirculate the wort through the grain your beer will be a lot more clear.



Seriously doubt that. Recirculating mash in a dedicated mash tun will certainly improve wort clarity, but any gain in clarity once the grain bed is set in a biab setup will be destroyed when you lift the bag, as the action of doing so will completely disturb the grain bed.

Placebo effect maybe.




Blitzer said:


> You would definitely want your hops in a bag you can remove I would think. Otherwise you would have to account for the extra "cube / birko hopping"



No.



bum said:


> It makes no real practical difference. Isomerisation continues whether the plant matter is still there or not.



Yes.

As bum states, it's the oils that we as brewers are interested in, not the "plant matter" so to speak.


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## gunbrew (24/10/12)

Sorry Nath, the bag is raised as shown. Wort is poured through the grain. The grain acts like a filter taking many tiny particles out of the wort improving clarity. 


Big Nath said:


> Seriously doubt that. Recirculating mash in a dedicated mash tun will certainly improve wort clarity, but any gain in clarity once the grain bed is set in a biab setup will be destroyed when you lift the bag, as the action of doing so will completely disturb the grain bed.
> 
> Placebo effect maybe.
> 
> ...


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## bignath (24/10/12)

gunbrew said:


> Sorry Nath, the bag is raised as shown. Wort is poured through the grain. The grain acts like a filter taking many tiny particles out of the wort improving clarity.



yeah, i understand that.

I'm originally a 3V all grain brewer, so i'm more than comfortable with the concepts of grain beds.

I don't believe it's possible though, to have a grain bed forming in a biab setup to stay intact enough to retain any clarity improvements when you've pulled the mash from the liquor. Particularly if you're gonna sparge with the bag hanging, and the grain bed squeezed inside the bag.

I don't know your history and level of experience, and i'm not implying im more experienced, but have you brewed with a dedicated, more traditional mash tun? ie, removing the liquor from the mash instead of removing the mash from the liquor?
If you've only ever done BIAB, i understand the thinking behind what you're doing, but i disagree that sparging a biab bag will yeild clearer results.
Recirculating through a traditional mash process will certainly give clearer results, but i don't believe it will apply for BIAB.
I also don't consider this a problem though, as my beers clear up nicely anyway with a quick cold condition, and careful trub separation in the kettle prior to opening the tap.

FWIW, the recirculating BIAB rig in my signature (which is actually Mk.1 - i'm on to my second incarnation of my rig) certainly creates a "grain bed" or sorts, in much the same way that my mash tun does from my 3V rig (which i still have), but as soon as it's disturbed by hoisting the bag, i've lost all clarity gains.
Important to note, that i didn't construct the recirculating rig to benefit clarity at all, it's more for temp control than anything else.


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## Nick JD (25/10/12)

Merely pulling the bag from the mash leaves a cloudy soup. 

When BIAB (with bag squeezing) wins experiments comparing multiple methods ... we're still talking about wort clarity? 

Matters SFA. Finito. Capiche?


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## gunbrew (25/10/12)

No worries Nath,I'm only stating what I have witnessed multiple times. You are stating your beliefs. 
Then you confirm that by recirculating a grain bed of sorts is formed. And clarity gains are lost when hoisting. Note that my biab bag is stainless mesh and that it is hoisted prior to recirculating the wort. Seems you accidentally agree. 
The Wort has less particles as they have been filtered out through the grain.Makes for clearer wort. Means my beer clears up earlier than when I did not recirculate. That's how it happens every time I brew. 


Big Nath said:


> yeah, i understand that.
> 
> I'm originally a 3V all grain brewer, so i'm more than comfortable with the concepts of grain beds.
> 
> ...


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## Bribie G (25/10/12)

Wort clarity into the kettle is different with BIAB (actually it's in the kettle to start off with) - it's wort clarity into the chiller or cube that is the main thing. 

Using a good kettle floccer such as BrewBright generally solves that on the spot. Also with BIAB in an urn it's simply a question then of putting the lid on the urn, covering with a clean cloth if you want to be really picky, and give it a 20 minute settling period before running off to chiller or cube. 

Of course you can lose a bit of wort to the trub, with usually about a litre and a half of sludge left in the urn. I save all this in a couple of glass lab jars and let it cool overnight as if they are micro-nochill cubes themselves. This lets me recover about 3/4 litre which I can boil up for a late hopping addition or use in a starter, so wastage is minimal.


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## bignath (25/10/12)

gunbrew said:


> No worries Nath,I'm only stating what I have witnessed multiple times. You are stating your beliefs.
> Then you confirm that by recirculating a grain bed of sorts is formed. And clarity gains are lost when hoisting. Note that my biab bag is stainless mesh and that it is hoisted prior to recirculating the wort. Seems you accidentally agree. The Wort has less particles as they have been filtered out through the grain.Makes for clearer wort. Means my beer clears up earlier than when I did not recirculate. That's how it happens every time I brew.



Don't agree at all GB.

I don't reckon it matters what your material of your bag is made of, i'd bet my left nut that the very action of lifting your bag/mesh/basket/bucket (whatever we each use as our "bag") disturbs your grain bed and small particles that would otherwise be left in the grain bed would escape.
The art of recirculating a grain bed in a typical setup with a mash tun is a very gentle thing - so you don't disturb the bed.

In your photo, you have a mate "recirculating"??? wort through your hoisted bag. That's not recirculating. Pouring wort back in from a height on top of a grain bed is gonna be quite a violent application of liquid to the grain bed and is gonna present problems for clarity, that is if they concern you at all. 

FWIW, the more turbid wort that i get in my kettle after hoisting the bag matters sweet **** all, as it all catches up later in the bottom of my fermenter, and i get clear beer anyway.

Just pointing out that pouring wort back through the grains is a far cry from recirculating and you're either misinformed or fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

Not a character attack mate, just don't want other potential and less experienced brewers to read this and think that this is a method that will deliver nice clear wort back into the kettle pre boil.
What you're actually doing is more of a sparge, except you're using wort instead of fresh supply of hot water.

If you said that the reason you are recirculating the wort back through the bag when hoisted was more to do with hopefully trying to extract more sugars, i'd be more inclined to agree.
Either don't worry about recirculating, or if you want to pour back through a hanging bag, i'd use clean water and call it a sparge. Adjust strike volumes to allow this.


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## QldKev (25/10/12)

I'm running both a 3V and a recirculating BIAB system (only 2 brews so far though on the latter), also was a traditional BIAB'er for a long time initially. Prior to me lifting the bag I find both worts clarify no problems. After I've lifted the bag and finished dumping the runnings from the bucket back into the kettle, I find the wort pre-boil from the 3V far clearer than the recirculating BIAB. I don't sparge the BIAB or squeeze the bag at all, just lift the bag and drop it in a bucket to collect any naturally draining wort. I assume sparging etc would disturb it more, and wash more crap out from the grain bed.

edit: Noticed Big Nath has posted a comment while I was typing this one. I agree with what he has said, as I think we have both basically said the same thing.

QldKev


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## gunbrew (25/10/12)

Funny stuff.
Small particles are trapped in the grain, This has worked many times.
Even though wort is poured in.
Rekoning, betting nuts, theories etc is all just talk when I have seen this work.
If your so sure of yourself find a long rope and abseil down off your super high horse and give it a go.
I would like to thank you for looking out for less experienced brewers such as myself.
Have not taken any of you comments as character attacks so no worries there.
If anything I have been very interested by your opinions on how something that works in the physical does not work.





Big Nath said:


> Don't agree at all GB.
> 
> I don't reckon it matters what your material of your bag is made of, i'd bet my left nut that the very action of lifting your bag/mesh/basket/bucket (whatever we each use as our "bag") disturbs your grain bed and small particles that would otherwise be left in the grain bed would escape.
> The art of recirculating a grain bed in a typical setup with a mash tun is a very gentle thing - so you don't disturb the bed.
> ...


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## Crusty (25/10/12)

gunbrew said:


> Funny stuff.
> Small particles are trapped in the grain, This has worked many times.
> Even though wort is poured in.
> Rekoning, betting nuts, theories etc is all just talk when I have seen this work.
> ...



GB,
Everyone has their own opinions & what you say may work just fine for you but Nath & Kev are correct in what they are saying. They're not criticizing you, just pointing out what will happen. You may get a little more clarity sparging that way but I don't think so either. Recirculating through the grain bed with a traditional 3V set up is not going to be the same as vourlouffing like you are doing. The grain bed needs time to compact & settle & this way won't get you there. As to why you believe you need a clear wort into your kettle is your choice & your decision but don't think that it's necessary for a better beer than a turbid wort into the boil kettle, it makes no difference at all. I used to be a 3V brewer with beautiful clear wort into my boil kettle. I now Biab in an urn & get quite turbid wort into my kettle but crystal clear wort into my no chill cube. I think recirculating is more for temp control & efficiency rather than clarity, it matters not.


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## gunbrew (25/10/12)

Cheers Crusty,
Since i started tipping the wort through the grain bed I noticed improved wort clarity.
On close inspection of the grain in the mesh bag it is trapping many fine particles, even in extreem cases to the point of it not being able to let the wort though.
I expect that would be the equivilent of a stuck sparge on a traditional 3V.
This makes the wort clear and I suspect it may lessen the amount of sludge left at the bottom of the kettle once it has cooled. (I have not measured that, only an observation)
I do not mind getting told at all, love to learn.
Stating fact only to be told by someone who was not there that it did not happen was of intrest.
I was not comparing what I am doing to 3V or anything other than not pouring wort through the grain bed.
Therefore I still say it makes a difference and Nath shold try it if he is so sure it does not work.



Crusty said:


> GB,
> Everyone has their own opinions & what you say may work just fine for you but Nath & Kev are correct in what they are saying. They're not criticizing you, just pointing out what will happen. You may get a little more clarity sparging that way but I don't think so either. Recirculating through the grain bed with a traditional 3V set up is not going to be the same as vourlouffing like you are doing. The grain bed needs time to compact & settle & this way won't get you there. As to why you believe you need a clear wort into your kettle is your choice & your decision but don't think that it's necessary for a better beer than a turbid wort into the boil kettle, it makes no difference at all. I used to be a 3V brewer with beautiful clear wort into my boil kettle. I now Biab in an urn & get quite turbid wort into my kettle but crystal clear wort into my no chill cube. I think recirculating is more for temp control & efficiency rather than clarity, it matters not.


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## bignath (25/10/12)

gunbrew said:


> Therefore I still say it makes a difference and Nath shold try it if he is so sure it does not work.



How do you know i haven't tried it?

I know you're not comparing it to 3V brewing, but the reason i brought it up, was that people have different perspectives of how clear is "clear" sometimes, and if you have nothing to compare it to, then i'm sure you're getting clear beer/wort.

Those "small particles" that you see in your grain bed? They are getting trapped are in everyone's mash whether they sparge, recirculate, biab or 2V/3V/4V brew. I see them in my mash tun and i see them in my BIAB post draining.

The even smaller particles have already fallen out of the bag/mesh as you've raised it. they are now in the bottom of your kettle. 
Just because pouring your wort back through your grain probably appears to come out clearish or even super-*******-clear out the bottom of the bag, doesn't mean your method is working. Damage has already been done (so to speak) in my opinion.

If you're sure that tipping wort back through a hanging grain bed in a mesh bag is a good idea, then keep going with it.
I am suggesting, you may not understand just how clear wort CAN be going into the kettle, hence the comparison to using a mash tun. If you ever use a mash tun, and recirculate in that, (where the grain bed doesn't get disrupted) when you open the tap to transfer the runnings to kettle, THEN you'll understand clear wort. You're wort in a biab setup will be cloudier as soon as you START to lift the bag, before you even see the runnings coming out of it, and this is where i'm saying your method is in some ways, pointless.

What i would suggest is that instead of using your wort to do what you're trying to achieve, why not try doing it with a fresh supply of water?

It's the same thing right??? :huh: 

Have you considered that you might actually be trapping some of the sugar that's in the wort by running it back through the grain bed? Using clean water guarantees that you won't have this POTENTIAL problem, it'll also yield higher effiiciency - that's not a guarantee, but it certainly is a guarantee that your efficiency won't go down as it might if you lose some of the sugars by using wort to pour through the bed.

But hey, what the **** do i know.... there are several other brewers in the last few posts who agree with me, and are telling you that there might be a better way.
Both Kev and Crusty, are MUCH more experienced brewers than myself, i have learnt heaps from both of them over the years. I'd listen to them.

EVERY brewer i've talked to, read from, asked questions too, seems to universally accept a more turbid (cloudy) wort going into the kettle when using BIAB methods. It is what it is. Can't really do a whole lot about it, so we move on and improve other processes to regain our clarity if required, further down the brewday path - Better whirlpooling, using flocculation agents, get better at transferring post boil, cold conditioning, gelatine, filtering...**** the list goes on...

You seem to have stumbled on a magical process that works for you and only you, so keep doing what you're doing.

oh, and i don't really like horses that much. Certainly not enough to climb up on one.


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## gunbrew (25/10/12)

Understanding that you believe this method is in some ways, pointless because you know better.
The grain sitting in the bag is filtering particles making for much clearer wort than if I do not do it.
Your replys do not detract from this fact because it happens.

If I saw a blue dog and 5 dog specialists said there are no blue dogs it would not change my opinion that I saw a blue dog.




Big Nath said:


> How do you know i haven't tried it?
> 
> I know you're not comparing it to 3V brewing, but the reason i brought it up, was that people have different perspectives of how clear is "clear" sometimes, and if you have nothing to compare it to, then i'm sure you're getting clear beer/wort.
> 
> ...


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## pcmfisher (25/10/12)

Nice and clear in the kettle, then leave it to cool down for 2 or 3 days with a bit of glad wrap over the top.

WOW


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## gunbrew (25/10/12)

SOP 1 day.



pcmfisher said:


> Nice and clear in the kettle, then leave it to cool down for 2 or 3 days with a bit of glad wrap over the top.
> 
> WOW


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## wbosher (28/10/12)

Got a new regulator for my gas burner, my existing one had a different connection. Looks like I will be doing my BIAB next weekend. I ground the grains on Wednesday (or Thursday, can't remember), they've been in plastic bags in the fridge since then. Will they still be ok in another weeks time?

I've heard some people say that they only last a couple of weeks once crushed, other say months. What's the general consensus here?


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## Hippy (28/10/12)

wbosher said:


> Got a new regulator for my gas burner, my existing one had a different connection. Looks like I will be doing my BIAB next weekend. I ground the grains on Wednesday (or Thursday, can't remember), they've been in plastic bags in the fridge since then. Will they still be ok in another weeks time?
> 
> I've heard some people say that they only last a couple of weeks once crushed, other say months. What's the general consensus here?



Should be fine for a week or two mate. I'd be careful about leaving in the fridge unless totally airtight though as moisture wouldn't be good for it. Better off in the pantry or somewhere cool, dry and dark.


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## wbosher (28/10/12)

Hippy said:


> Should be fine for a week or two mate. I'd be careful about leaving in the fridge unless totally airtight though as moisture wouldn't be good for it. Better off in the pantry or somewhere cool, dry and dark.



They're in sealed zip lock type bags, so should be airtight.


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## wbosher (3/11/12)

Just started mashing at 4pm (NZ time). The problem I have is that I may need to wait until about 7pm when my son is in bed before I can start the boil.

Is that 90mins or so in between the mash and boil going to make any difference?


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## thylacine (3/11/12)

wbosher said:


> Just started mashing at 4pm (NZ time). The problem I have is that I may need to wait until about 7pm when my son is in bed before I can start the boil.
> 
> Is that 90mins or so in between the mash and boil going to make any difference?



Not to many. eg. http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=30815


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## wbosher (3/11/12)

Hmmm...not too happy with the pre-boil SG, only 1.030. Oh well, we'll see how it goes.


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## wbosher (4/11/12)

First AG brew done last night.  

Pre-boil SG was only about 1.030 so thought that was a bit low. After the boil it was 1.055 but had boiled down to 15L.

I watered it down to try to get the volume up a bit, so added 3L to get it up to 18L. OG is 1.045, so I'm pretty happy with that. It's a bit lower than the recipe says but still ok I think.

Pitched us-05 and it's away...fingers crossed.


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## bignath (4/11/12)

...and it starts.

Congratulations man! I'm sure it'll be the best beer you've made to date!

Keep us updated with it's progress.

Cheers,

Nath


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## wbosher (6/11/12)

Took a quick look this morning and was quite surprised at what I saw. The yest was churning up the beer, it looked like someone was stirring it. A bit of googling put my mind at rest that this is quite normal, just never seen it with any of my kit beers.

Another thing that surprised me was the heat that was generated. The stick on thermometer said 20oC, but the ambient temp was only about 10oC after a very cold night. I realise that the accuracy of the thermometer may not be 100%, but 10 degrees is a lot more than I would have expected.

Anyway, looks like it's ticking along nicely.


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## bignath (6/11/12)




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## wbosher (10/11/12)

Just took a FG reading and it's quite low 1.006, probably because I watered it down to bring the volume up a little...guess I won't do that again. Is supposed to finish up at around 1.012, which it probably would have if I hadn't have messed with it.  

I suppose I'll have a dry, thin beer. At least it looks and tastes like beer, that's a start.


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## seamad (10/11/12)

Have you checked your thermometer? If its reading high you may have mashed lower than you thought resulting in the lower than expected fg.


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## wbosher (10/11/12)

No I haven't checked it but I have two thermometers that read exactly the same - one glass and one digital. I will check it before my next brew.

I suspect it was because I watered it down in the fermenter. The target OG was pretty much spot on, give or take a point or two, at around 1.055. Just miscalculated the water volumes and put too little water in initially, resulting in only 15L instead of 20L. Topped up to 18L in the fermenter with an OG of 1.045.

I think if I had just gone with the 15L instead of topping it up, it would have been pretty much perfect.

What sort of effect will a low FG have on the final result. Thin and dry as I suspect it might be? Is 1.006 really _that _low?

This is only my first FG reading, hopefully it won't go even lower...

EDIT: Actually, I've just done some reading and from what I seen 1.006 is quite common for a pale ale...hopefully will be ok.


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## wbosher (16/11/12)

Bottled it tonight. Had a wee taste and it's not too bad, maybe a little sweet. Don't know if that's the malt or the Cascade. Not too sure what Cascade tastes like.

Anyway, might turn out to be an ok beer for my first AG attempt.


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## Diesel80 (16/11/12)

wbosher said:


> Bottled it tonight. Had a wee taste and it's not too bad, maybe a little sweet. Don't know if that's the malt or the Cascade. Not too sure what Cascade tastes like.
> 
> Anyway, might turn out to be an ok beer for my first AG attempt.




My first AG was pretty average, ask Hippy he was unfortunate enough to try it , though he did pick out the positives and focus on them.

Now a few more brews to the good and having learned the system I brew with I am comfortably turning out nice, very easy to drink beer. Starting to get some people asking me where I bought the beer I gave them to drink. 

Problem now is I really need to brew double batches as I can't brew too often and almost run out of beer now. Damn seagull mates.

It's a slippery slope mate but one worth traversing.

Cheers,

D80


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## bignath (16/11/12)

wbosher said:


> Bottled it tonight. Had a wee taste and it's not too bad, maybe a little sweet. Don't know if that's the malt or the Cascade. Not too sure what Cascade tastes like.
> 
> Anyway, might turn out to be an ok beer for my first AG attempt.



Certainly won't be the cascade. I get a "sweetness" from a couple of hops, but i don't get it with Cascade.


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## thedragon (16/11/12)

Not trying to be cheeky, but my first ag was better than any k&k that I'd done. But maybe I am lucky having been exposed to many Saturday morning brews at grain & grape.


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## wbosher (17/11/12)

Big Nath said:


> Certainly won't be the cascade. I get a "sweetness" from a couple of hops, but i don't get it with Cascade.



I'm not sure sweetness is really the word I was looking for, don't really know what it is, just unusual. Probably just used to the harshness of kit beers and that was missing. 

I'm sure it'll be quite drinkable once carbed up.  

My next brew I'm going to do basically the same, but make it a little more bitter by adding more hops at 60mins. Also going to add little more grains and mash at a higher temp to try get it a little thicker. Looking forward to experimenting.

Just downloaded Beersmith, that looks like it's going to be a lot of fun playing around with.


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## stux (17/11/12)

wbosher said:


> I'm not sure sweetness is really the word I was looking for, don't really know what it is, just unusual. Probably just used to the harshness of kit beers and that was missing.
> 
> I'm sure it'll be quite drinkable once carbed up.
> 
> ...



Maybe you should consider a lower temperature, 64, 65C etc

Would result in a drier beer with a lower FG


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## wbosher (17/11/12)

Stux said:


> Maybe you should consider a lower temperature, 64, 65C etc
> 
> Would result in a drier beer with a lower FG



I don't want a drier beer, I want something with a bit more body. I understand that higher mash temperatures will achieve that. The one I've just made is quite thin with a very low FG.


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## wbosher (1/12/12)

Just tasted my first AG beer after two weeks in the bottle. Bloody nice!  

Not as bitter as I like my beer, but still really nice...and no twang. Not as thin as I thought it might be, but I've recently discovered that my Coopers hydrometer is completely fckd, it's about 5 points out, must have become waterlogged. Binned it and got a glass one. That would make the FG about 1.011.

I'm really pleased with how it turned out, good head and body (get your mind out of the gutter



).

Can't wait until my 2nd one is ready, just bottled it an hour ago. That's got more bittering hops than this one had, so should be good.


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