# Keg conditioning



## Talnoy (29/8/21)

I have been carbing my homebrews like this: rack the beer from a PET conical to a Fermenter King Jr at terminal gravity (for saving the yeast), then crash and force carb and finally bottle with a counter pressure filler.

This has worked well until I started top filling the Jr, which led to difficulties force carbing with the very small head space after top filling. I am now about to leave force carbing and instead keg condition the Jr with table sugar. The rest of the process will be the same as before.

What are the downsides with this, except the two weeks for the beer to carbonate?

edit: ahh, wrong section, could some kind admin please move this to a more appropriate section.


----------



## S.E (30/8/21)

Talnoy said:


> What are the downsides with this, except the two weeks for the beer to carbonate?


The only down side is you may get more yeast settle at the bottom of the keg around the dip tube so the first glass or two will be a bit cloudy. I usually dump the first glass.

It won’t usually take two weeks to carbonate, mine normally carbonate in 2-3 days but can be fully carbed after only one day. Selecting a highly flocculent yeast for cask or keg conditioning is best and will speed up the whole process.

I have a beer on tap at the moment that was pitched less than 2 weeks ago with SO4, it tastes good now and will improve over the next week or so.
It had fermented in 2 days at 19c-20c, left it another 3 days and a sample from the fermenter was already looking pretty clear before I dropped the temp to 12c for 3 days before kegging with a couple heaped desert spoons of table sugar. As it hadn’t been chilled below 12c or left in primary too long the yeast got to work straight away in the keg and was finished in a couple days.


----------



## Talnoy (30/8/21)

S.E said:


> It won’t usually take two weeks to carbonate, mine normally carbonate in 2-3 days but can be fully carbed after only one day.


Thanks a lot, never thought I would be this quick. I have a floating dip tube in the keg, so in my case it will be the last glass/bottle that has to be dumped.


----------



## duncbrewer (30/8/21)

@Talnoy
why not just pressure ferment once the high krausen has finished ( or before if you want ) in your PET conical, they are pressure safe. Polythene conicals not so good with pressure. 
Then you could do a closed pressure transfer into your purged Fermenter king jr ( using spare gas from ferment if you want) and then you would have settled fully carbed beer ready to go?
I regularly do this with the fermentasaurus to keg and it works great.


----------



## S.E (30/8/21)

Talnoy said:


> Thanks a lot, never thought I would be this quick.


I should have mentioned that I usually keep carbonation on the low side real ale style so a couple spoons of sugar and 2-3 days is enough but even for higher carbonation 3-5 days usually does the job.


----------



## Talnoy (31/8/21)

duncbrewer said:


> why not just pressure ferment once the high krausen has finished


I am not a big fan of pressurised fermentation any longer and I prefer to rack the fermented beer to a keg/FK-J, so the fermenter is freed for another batch of beer. But apart from that I see your point.


----------



## Talnoy (31/8/21)

S.E said:


> Selecting a highly flocculent yeast for cask or keg conditioning is best and will speed up the whole process.


I guess you pitch a yeast like CBC-1 or F2 for conditioning, do you believe that is necessary? I thought the remaining yeast from the primary fermentation would be sufficient to consume the priming sugar in a normal strength beer


----------



## MHB (31/8/21)

I used to do a fair bit of fermentation in glass carboys. When the yeast has dropped out to the point where you could wet your finger put it on the carboy and look through the beer to see your fingerprint on the other side, the beer is called "cask clear". You would have something in the order of 10,000 cells/mL, plenty to bottle/keg/cask condition the beer, without leaving too much of a slab of yeast in the packaging.
Given as you said, for normal strength beer, more than enough yeast to convert the priming sugar. It's worth noting that the last yeast to settle out is the most attenuative yeast. If you keep culturing bottle yeast and reusing it you will over time breed a more attenuative less flocculent strain of your yeast.
Mark


----------



## Talnoy (31/8/21)

MHB said:


> It's worth noting that the last yeast to settle out is the most attenuative yeast. If you keep culturing bottle yeast and reusing it you will over time breed a more attenuative less flocculent strain of your yeast.


I had no idea, lesson of the day, thanks a lot.


----------



## S.E (2/9/21)

Talnoy said:


> I guess you pitch a yeast like CBC-1 or F2 for conditioning, do you believe that is necessary? I thought the remaining yeast from the primary fermentation would be sufficient to consume the priming sugar in a normal strength beer


I have never used CBC-1 or F2. I use S04 a lot, its a favorite. I only ever add yeast to primary, never had to add more yeast or a second strain to cask or bottled homebrew.


----------



## BrewLizard (2/9/21)

Talnoy said:


> This has worked well until I started top filling the Jr, which led to difficulties force carbing with the very small head space after top filling.



Could you elaborate on this? I've re-read it several times and still don't see why it would be a problem.


----------



## duncbrewer (3/9/21)

BrewLizard said:


> Could you elaborate on this? I've re-read it several times and still don't see why it would be a problem.


It's not totally clear from reading the description. I'm wondering if the fermenter king jr ( fkj) has say only 500ml of headspace after filling to the top ( maybe less ), force carbing this would be slow as not much surface area with upright fkj. 
Tactics to improve force carbing could be
lie fkj it on it's side to increase surface area.
Increase psi when force carbing
Make sure the beer is really cold when force carbing
Foce carb thru the liquid post
rock fkj back and forward when force carbing to disrupt the surface 
wait longer
put an aeration stone on a tube connected to the gas post ( you'd need to get a short liquid tube to swap onto the bulkhead corny connector for gas so the tube would fit on). 
or put it in under pressure either from pressure ferment or end ferment pressure ferment or carb in the fermentasaurus.

Make sure you have a non return ball lock gas connector or a non return valve between regulator and normal ball lock gas connector, otherwise sooner or later you'll fill up the regulator with beer and they are a pain to take apart and clean.


----------



## Talnoy (4/9/21)

S.E said:


> I have never used CBC-1 or F2. I use S04 a lot, its a favorite. I only ever add yeast to primary, never had to add more yeast or a second strain to cask or bottled homebrew.


Ok, I misunderstood you there


----------



## Talnoy (4/9/21)

BrewLizard said:


> Could you elaborate on this? I've re-read it several times and still don't see why it would be a problem.


When I force carb in a keg, I pressurise it to to the max and then disconnect the co2 tank. I disconnect the tank for not having to risk an empty gas tank if I should have a leak somewhere. If I have big enough head space in the keg, the amount of gas there will be enough to carb the liquid (I might need refill with gas once or twice). My problem when I top fill the keg with liquid is that the volume needed for gas is gone. That is why I left force carbing and try keg conditioning with priming sugar instead


----------



## duncbrewer (4/9/21)

Talnoy said:


> When I force carb in a keg, I pressurise it to to the max and then disconnect the co2 tank. I disconnect the tank for not having to risk an empty gas tank if I should have a leak somewhere. If I have big enough head space in the keg, the amount of gas there will be enough to carb the liquid (I might need refill with gas once or twice). My problem when I top fill the keg with liquid is that the volume needed for gas is gone. That is why I left force carbing and try keg conditioning with priming sugar instead


See my post above for some tips to help the force carbing in your setup.


----------



## Talnoy (4/9/21)

duncbrewer said:


> See my post above for some tips to help the force carbing in your setup.


Thank a lot!


----------



## BrewLizard (4/9/21)

Talnoy said:


> When I force carb in a keg, I pressurise it to to the max and then disconnect the co2 tank. I disconnect the tank for not having to risk an empty gas tank if I should have a leak somewhere. If I have big enough head space in the keg, the amount of gas there will be enough to carb the liquid (I might need refill with gas once or twice). My problem when I top fill the keg with liquid is that the volume needed for gas is gone. That is why I left force carbing and try keg conditioning with priming sugar instead



Ah, now I understand. Fortunately, if you burst carb at 30-40 psi, it's actually much _easier_ to see or hear a leak than at usual serving pressures. Starsan or detergent around the connections will bubble like crazy at the smallest leak!


----------



## Grmblz (4/9/21)

@Talnoy despite many pages of "how to force carbonate" on the google this is the definitive way to force carb, it used to be available here on AHB, but somewhere along the line a "cleaning" was done and the knowledge lost, some old farts retained this knowledge and re-injected it into the data base, at some point it will be "cleansed" again, this time the old farts will be gone, store it, the cloud is there only as long as someone pays money, a book sits on a shelf and costs nothing to keep, an external hard drive is a very poor substitute but so so much better than the cloud. The young un's may well laugh and shake their heads at the oldies, but mark my words the time will come when you remember something but need the details and a google search provides nothing, the "wayback" machine is no help, the server is dead or more likely no longer paid for to be on the net. AHB Articles: ross method is back on AHB till the next "this old shit isn't needed" clean up.


----------

