# Food Poisoning From Beer



## Jagungal (8/5/07)

Can beer that is maybe off make you sick, as in giving you some kind of food poisoning ?

The situation is this, I have someone who I owed a few favours - and they absolutely love one of my Stouts.

They asked if I would bring some to a BBQ the other day so he could give some to another guy he knows, I could not make it but gave him a few bottles instead.

I got the report back that one of the bottles made them sick, as in two days of being sick and throwing up. He said that one of the bottles was not carbonated but thats it. I asked why they drank it if it was not carbonated .. he said it was because it tasted ok.

To me it sounds like a general food poisoning being the most probable culprit. There were three adults at the BBQ and they all drank the beer - and all adults got sick. Children there did not drink the beer and did not get sick. 

So, considering that the beer contains alcohol, that previous bottles have been ok and that people often let their beers go off (Lambic), is it possible that this beer was the cause of the food poisoning ?


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## hairydave (8/5/07)

Jagungal said:


> Can beer that is maybe off make you sick, as in giving you some kind of food poisoning ?
> 
> The situation is this, I have someone who I owed a few favours - and they absolutely love one of my Stouts.
> 
> ...



yes its possible, but BBQ's are notorious for food poisoning so more likely the food caused it, but it is possible that there was a "bad bug" in that one bottle...

i'd linky link to my post in K&K on water filtration but i don't know how yet


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## Kai (8/5/07)

Beer will not give you you food poisoning/


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## capretta (8/5/07)

there is a book called new brewing lager beer by greg noonan that asserts that no seriously pathogenic (serious sick causing) organism can survive in beer due to the acidity and alchohol level. i have found that to be true and have drank brews where the fermenter has been ringed with grey scum and tasted like drunks vomit, and although it tasted terrible it didnt make me sick. i must admit i didnt drink much of it but the taste kind of precluded a binge  

it is much easier for poorly kept food to be the reason for the illness, *i have never heard of someone getting ill from HB. 
*
maybe tho it would be best (diplomatic) to lie and say you tried a new yeast? just promise not to use it again, they will not know better and assume you are some sort of psycho pioneer living on the edge of brewing...


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## Brewtus (9/5/07)

Beer was developed by Vikings and others as it was safe to drink, the water was filtered though the mash, boiled and the yeast dominated the wort and the alcohol stopped any bugs growing. 

The chances of getting food poisoning from beer is very remote. Getting it from bad food hygiene is a much higher risk. What did the grown ups eat the kids didn't? Salad? spicy stuff?


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## capretta (9/5/07)

yeah yeah in mideval times it ensured that the water was ok to drink, not always a sure thing.. even kids drank beer for meals.. can u imagine mum? " drink up your beer so you can be nice and healthy" !!


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## redbeard (9/5/07)

u didnt mention what they cooked on the bbq. kids usually get snags, the adults might have snags / steak / seafood / chicken .... salad. perhaps the mayonaise was off !

if the beer smelt ok, i sought of doubt an infection.


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## Whistlingjack (9/5/07)

I agree with the above. It's highly unlikely that the beer was the cause of your friends' illness.

However, you CAN get sick from HB. Especially if your grains are stored in the wrong way and allow the growth of molds and fungi, such as fusarium. These can transfer mycotoxins right through to the finished beer. Sure, its rare, but it has happened.

If you use extracts, no problem, but its something to think about.

WJ


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## reVoxAHB (9/5/07)

I'm a qualified chef and have food safety handler papers, etc.

I'd put my money on any of the following, before beer, especially considering we're talking bbq:

1.) Poor food storage (leaving meats, etc. out in the sun in danger temp/range waiting to be cooked, etc.) Poor transportation of items from house/store/etc. to bbq party/area.

2.) Not completely cooking meats at proper temp or for long enough to kill said bacteria if improperly handled/stored.

3.) Poor cleaning of food preparation area, especially the grill and or hot plate of a barbie. Doesn't take any stretch of the imagination to fully realize the breeding potential for bacteria on a barbie. How many of your mates do honestly see properly scrubbing their bbq's in warm soapy water and/or bleach, etc. after each use?

4.) Poor hygene of the person handling the food, eg quick piss or otherwise and back to barbie duties (no hand wash). A little something they teach you in school: there's enough bacteria in human feces to "go through" or "permeate" 10 full layers of toilet paper to reach your hands. Never, ever, skip washing your hands after using a toilet, period.

5.) Dodgy meat to begin with. So often it's quantity over quality when it comes to bbq meat, much like mega swill. I make it a point to bring my own meat/fish/etc. to a barbie (no matter how poncey I may appear). Have not a problem slapping a well seasoned thick as my fist porterhouse on the grill next to the 15 aussie snags for $2.49. Problem is, keeping the other meat away from mine and alas, I eat my steak rare. Generally speaking, I feel ok knowing I've sealed the outside of my steak at high temp (and therefore killed any nasties I may have picked up from surrounding meat, or the grill itself - I know there's absolutely no guarantee of this, it's a risk I take).

You mentioned the adults all got sick but the kids didn't. Maybe all of the adults ate 'the deviled eggs' where the kids didn't. Many variables to consider, not just that the kids didn't drink beer (that's a given and easy target, eh?)

You did mention the beers had no carbonation. That could mean they weren't capped/sealed properly. Did you prime properly? Are you using pop top bottles (or screw offs)? Do you use a decent capper, and not a hammer like I've actually heard of friends using? Were the caps you used new, clean and free of erosion? Do you take the time to examine each and every bottle for any sign of sediment, before bottling? Are you using a proper sanitiser like iodophor or bleach, and the proper amount? Are you letting your bottles contact the sanitation solution for at least 20 minutes (preferably longer) before rinse or drying?

I'm just wondering, worst case scenario, if the following could make you sick: a bottle that had a large amount of sediment from the previous batch with remaining slurry having grown bacteria/mold for several weeks or months, that you somehow missed at bottling, bottle not properly santised, new beer racked on top with poor capping- yeast would eat the priming but the generated carbonation would escape (again, due to poor capping) likewise oxygen could work it's way in so that the bottle is not locked... 

I'm wondering how resilient that slurry bed could be, even with fresh beer racked on top of it?

It's all pretty far fetched, when you put it up against old Larry having not cleaned his barbie since 1987. 

To summarise, tell your friends it's 99% the aforementioned 1-5 and 1% the worst worst case scenario and even then because of beer's acidity and alcohol content, there are no known pathogens that can survive in beer.

reVox


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## Kai (9/5/07)

Whistlingjack said:


> However, you CAN get sick from HB. Especially if your grains are stored in the wrong way and allow the growth of molds and fungi, such as fusarium. These can transfer mycotoxins right through to the finished beer. Sure, its rare, but it has happened.



Oops, I forgot about this. Still far more likely to not be your fault though.


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## browndog (9/5/07)

Revox, that post is worthy of a Pistolpatch Gold Star Award. If the answer is not there then it must have something to do with quantum physics. I have a question on the cleanliness of BBQ plates. Do you really need to scrub them in soapy water and/or bleach? Does not getting the plate/grill up to cooking temp before adding the meat kill any bugs that may have bred on the plate since the last BBQ? My normal routine is to get the plate nice and hot then pour some beer on it and scrub it with some newspaper and that's about it. Is this OK?

cheers

Browndog


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## ant (9/5/07)

Jagungal, I reckon you should defend the honour of your beer.

Grab half a dozen bottles of your stout, take them round to your aforementioned mate's house, and proceed to drink them, preferably while watching the footy. Although your coherence may decrease over this period, your confidence in your sanitation and brewing ability will improve in leaps and bounds.

I recommend you finish with giving yourself a pat on the back, possibly adding in a couple of aerobatic maneouvres if you feel inspired to do so, get your friend to dial SWMBO, stagger out to the car and have a little nap on the way home. The following day you mightn't feel all that flash, but you'll know it wasn't your stout.


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## reVoxAHB (9/5/07)

browndog said:


> Revox, that post is worthy of a Pistolpatch Gold Star Award.



Haha! I was thinking of PistolPatch as I started my 9th paragraph! Can't sleep tonight, so there you go.



browndog said:


> Do you really need to scrub them in soapy water and/or bleach? Does not getting the plate/grill up to cooking temp before adding the meat kill any bugs that may have bred on the plate since the last BBQ? My normal routine is to get the plate nice and hot then pour some beer on it and scrub it with some newspaper and that's about it. Is this OK?



Look, it's probably fine. I think you'll find most people do it this way, or instead of beer will cut a lemon in half and scrub the surface with each side.

Being a brewer, and a chef I tend to err on the side of caution more than most, with hygene.

Best case scenario is to remove the hot plate/grill after it's cooled down and wash in warm soapy water- and general area in and around the plate (drip plate if any, etc.) A rinse with hot boiling water should suffice.

I would do a bleach or better a grill-cleaner solution (a bit like soaking a chopping board overnight) every 6 months or so, depending on usage of course. Or just use the commercial bbq cleaners (I believe most have a bi-carb base). Thing is, most guys don't want to do this because they're afraid the plate will lose it's seasoning. It's really no big deal. Just get the plate back on as high of heat as you can to burn off any residue, scrape as required, and throw down a generous amount of fine salt- it will lift any rust or junk left behind, as well as season the plate. You can also use an oil that's tolerant to heat (like peanut oil) and burn it off, alternating with salt.

If you're not getting sick, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

And hey, you're officially not a sissy for using newspaper to scrub the hot surface :super:


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## Zwickel (9/5/07)

Kai said:


> Beer will not give you you food poisoning/


I subscribe


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## berapnopod (9/5/07)

Whistlingjack said:


> I agree with the above. It's highly unlikely that the beer was the cause of your friends' illness.
> 
> However, you CAN get sick from HB. Especially if your grains are stored in the wrong way and allow the growth of molds and fungi, such as fusarium. These can transfer mycotoxins right through to the finished beer. Sure, its rare, but it has happened.
> 
> ...



WJ, do you have a reference for this?
Berp.


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## xtrabyte (9/5/07)

Kai said:


> Beer will not give you you food poisoning/


I agree with Kai


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## Whistlingjack (9/5/07)

berapnopod said:


> WJ, do you have a reference for this?
> Berp.



This article should get you started.

Beer will not give you food poisoning, though.

WJ


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## ozpowell (9/5/07)

capretta said:


> yeah yeah in mideval times it ensured that the water was ok to drink, not always a sure thing.. even kids drank beer for meals.. can u imagine mum? " drink up your beer so you can be nice and healthy" !!



For once I wish I was born 400 years ago.... 18 more years of my life enjoying beery goodness. :beer: Though, I guess I probably would only have expected to live till 50 :blink:


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## devo (9/5/07)

beer has been known to get you so drunk that the effects can be similar to food poisoning. It's also know to help get you laid as well.


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## ozpowell (9/5/07)

devo said:


> ... It's also know to help get you laid as well.



Yeah - and sometimes even with people


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## Jagungal (9/5/07)

Kai said:


> Beer will not give you you food poisoning/




Thanks for all the replies, they are echoing what I was thinking but I was just not sure.

The the beer is an all grain and all of the other bottles are fine.

I was guessing too that it might have been something the adults ate - or maybe their lack of hygiene. 

I suppose the good thing is though, that I get to drink the rest of the batch without being pestered for more tastings.


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## delboy (9/5/07)

more likely the food was out for to long and was the culprit.
kids usually eat first at a barbie cause dad usually gets the kids out the way first so the adults can sit back a bit .

i would be betting they had dips out on the table for a few hours or a rice salad, maybe an egg salad.

one thing to remember about food is if it has been at a temperature higher than 5degrees C every 20 minutes nasties will double .

i went to an italian wedding once and they had beautifull cold meats out on the tables ready when you arrived but the ting is it was a warm day 26 degs with a breeze they were put out about an hour or so before the guest turned up so all 100 tables were ready and it was covered with cling wrap and it was a bit sweaty but i told my wife not to eat it and neither did I and we were the only ones on our table who did not get sick.

del


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## drsmurto (9/5/07)

reVox said:


> Best case scenario is to remove the hot plate/grill after it's cooled down and wash in warm soapy water- and general area in and around the plate (drip plate if any, etc.) A rinse with hot boiling water should suffice.
> 
> I would do a bleach or better a grill-cleaner solution (a bit like soaking a chopping board overnight) every 6 months or so, depending on usage of course. Or just use the commercial bbq cleaners (I believe most have a bi-carb base). Thing is, most guys don't want to do this because they're afraid the plate will lose it's seasoning. It's really no big deal. Just get the plate back on as high of heat as you can to burn off any residue, scrape as required, and throw down a generous amount of fine salt- it will lift any rust or junk left behind, as well as season the plate. You can also use an oil that's tolerant to heat (like peanut oil) and burn it off, alternating with salt.



Sorry for slight thread hijack but....

I copped a lot of shit when living in the UK when i told them we use gas bbqs. They were appalled that we would effectively use the inside method of cooking outside and call that a bbq. I argued that we dont 'clean; our bbq plates as such, just heat them up, add a bit of salt, lemon or beer and away you go meaning that the flavours of previous bbqs build up. And for that reason you can taste the difference in food cooked on the bbq compared to in the frypan inside.

If you are saying we should clean the bbq with soapy water then i will have to side with the poms. You may as well cook inside on a frypan. No difference.

And HB has never caused me to be sick, even an off tasting one!

Cheers
DrSmurto


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## danbeer (9/5/07)

ant said:


> Jagungal, I reckon you should defend the honour of your beer.
> 
> Grab half a dozen bottles of your stout, take them round to your aforementioned mate's house, and proceed to drink them, preferably while watching the footy. Although your coherence may decrease over this period, your confidence in your sanitation and brewing ability will improve in leaps and bounds.
> 
> I recommend you finish with giving yourself a pat on the back, possibly adding in a couple of aerobatic maneouvres if you feel inspired to do so, get your friend to dial SWMBO, stagger out to the car and have a little nap on the way home. The following day you mightn't feel all that flash, but you'll know it wasn't your stout.




Oh, I dunno about that... 

I had (have) a flatmate that decided to get stuck into one of the kegs I had in the fridge some months back... He thinks he got food poisoning from it. 
Consequentially, he no longer drinks my homebrew.  

I drank the remainder of the keg - nothing wrong with it apart from some chill haze.

More beer for me! :beer:


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## quigley (9/5/07)

It was the salmon mousse  




Whistlingjack said:


> I agree with the above. It's highly unlikely that the beer was the cause of your friends' illness.
> 
> However, you CAN get sick from HB. Especially if your grains are stored in the wrong way and allow the growth of molds and fungi, such as fusarium. These can transfer mycotoxins right through to the finished beer. Sure, its rare, but it has happened.
> 
> ...


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## tangent (9/5/07)

it's a shame the HB is the first thing to get accused of being the culprit.

a mate of mine was an Ambo officer and still won't eat chicken unless it's JUST been cooked.

speaking of italian weddings delboy, i heard about the bloke who popped a champagne cork right at the start of the reception. it hit the flouros above the food tables and showered all the food in broken glass. ohmygodican'tbelieveit

remember the days when people would use ice? big heaps of ice with the cold meats and prawns kept cold nestled amongst them.


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## brettprevans (9/5/07)

Jagungal said:


> Can beer that is maybe off make you sick, as in giving you some kind of food poisoning ?



It sounds to me like these people got off their faces and rather than admit they were hungover they decided to blame the HB. If Im playing funny buggers with the missus after Ive written myself off, I always blame it on food poisining. While you can get sick form any food product (and HB is a food product - this is hy you must have a food handlers certificate in Vic if you work with alcohol) I doubt it was your brew that made them sick


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## delboy (9/5/07)

yes tangent people today are a bit lax when it comes to food hygeine i would agree with the above they were probabely just pissed and sick .if it was home brew caused ther bodies are used to MEGASWILL not naturally brew fine ale.
if they had severe food posioning they would have ened up in Hospital.
so it was more like the spews and shits and a tum tum ache .
may be before they try and blame it on the beer your mates might want to re think THEIR hygeine habbits and cooking methods and food preparation and storage methods .AFTER ALL THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE FOOD AT A BARBIE EXPOSED THAN A SEALED BOTTLE OF BEER.

sorry to shout the point but i see it all the time in CAFE'S and deli countres at supermarkets people have no Idea.
"yes it good to ware plastic gloves when serving your ham from the deli counter but then they go and get a hot chicken out of display and then serve another customer cold meats again .
now these people are tought to change there gloves everytime on the hygeine courses but the supermarket management say NONONONONO STOP THROWING AWAY PERFECTLY GOOD GLOVES . SO WHERE DO I START.
Also whant to see how many time the kids that work at Maccas change their gloves on a cooking shift.
YOU WILL BE HORRIFIED "BUT THATS WHAT MACDONALDS IS ALL ABOUT BEING SICK"

DEL


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## Bobby (9/5/07)

Do you have to selectively SHOUT your words delboy? It is a nightmare to read.


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## simonl75 (9/5/07)

delboy said:


> "yes it good to ware plastic gloves when serving your ham from the deli counter but then they go and get a hot chicken out of display and then serve another customer cold meats again...



Or they handle coins/notes with the rubber gloved hand.... I see that all the time.


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## Kai (10/5/07)

berapnopod said:


> WJ, do you have a reference for this?
> Berp.




Hey berp,

I don't have a reference for this and don't have any micro textbooks on hand, but I can tell you that it was present in my university food micro notes.

Now... burn the witch!


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## xtrabyte (10/5/07)

Kai said:


> Hey berp,
> 
> I don't have a reference for this and don't have any micro textbooks on hand, but I can tell you that it was present in my university food micro notes.
> 
> Now... burn the witch!


Here is a bit of info from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycotoxin
Fusarium toxins are produced by several species of the genus Fusarium which infect the grain of developing cereals such as wheat and maize. They include a range of mycotoxins including the fumonisins, which affect the nervous systems of horses and cause cancer in rodents, the trichothecenes, including deoxynivalenol, and zearalenone, the last two of which are very stable and can survive cooking. The trichothecenes are acutely toxic to humans, causing sickness and diarrhea and potentially death.


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## berapnopod (10/5/07)

Thanks to WJ, Kai and Xtrabyte for their responses. I don't doubt that you can get mould growing on grains. I was unaware that resultant toxins could get through the mashing and boiling process unscathed, but you all show some evidence that this can happen.

I lesson for all-grainers: if you see mould on your grains, don't brew with them!

Berp.


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## Guest Lurker (10/5/07)

berapnopod said:


> I lesson for all-grainers: if you see mould on your grains, don't brew with them!
> 
> Berp.



Yeah, I actually posted that when the mouldy batch of Powells was around but I think it got lost in the noise. Did anyone brew with that batch and did they survive?


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## Darren (10/5/07)

Years ago I asked a maltster if there were Fusarium sp. on aussie malt?

It was sure one good question to stop them selling to me 8(

The answer was yes, but each batch is monitored to ensure it did not exceed acceptable limits.

cheers

Darren

EDIT: For what it is worth, home drying of chillies etc. are also very good sources of aflotoxins. Especially if you live in areas with high humidity


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## lucas (10/5/07)

tangent said:


> speaking of italian weddings delboy, i heard about the bloke who popped a champagne cork right at the start of the reception. it hit the flouros above the food tables and showered all the food in broken glass. ohmygodican'tbelieveit


and showered in mercury too... or is that only in compact fluros?


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## newguy (10/5/07)

lucas said:


> and showered in mercury too... or is that only in compact fluros?



No, there is mercury in the big tubes too.


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## MAH (10/5/07)

Guest Lurker said:


> Yeah, I actually posted that when the mouldy batch of Powells was around but I think it got lost in the noise. Did anyone brew with that batch and did they survive?




Hi GL

It don't go anywhere near my mash tun or any other Adelaide brewer I know. This wasn't a little bit of mold, it was easy to see it as you poured the grain from the sack.

Powells was good enough to replace the moldy grain.


Cheers
MAH


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## stillscottish (10/5/07)

Kai said:


> Now... burn the witch!



How do you know she's a witch?


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## reVoxAHB (11/5/07)

DrSmurto said:


> Sorry for slight thread hijack but....
> 
> I copped a lot of shit when living in the UK when i told them we use gas bbqs. They were appalled that we would effectively use the inside method of cooking outside and call that a bbq. I argued that we dont 'clean; our bbq plates as such, just heat them up, add a bit of salt, lemon or beer and away you go meaning that the flavours of previous bbqs build up. And for that reason you can taste the difference in food cooked on the bbq compared to in the frypan inside.
> 
> If you are saying we should clean the bbq with soapy water then i will have to side with the poms. You may as well cook inside on a frypan. No difference.



I totally agree with you. 

Your mention of Poms giving you shit for gas BBQ'ing, got me wondering how do they bbq? I emailed a friend in the UK inquiring to such who replied, "It doesn't stop raining long enough to cook a sausage all the way through, so we don't bother!"

Not exactly helpful, but funny enough to make mention of it here. Or at least, I thought so  

Next time you get ripped into, tell them this:




is all an elaborate national cover for how we really bbq in Australia, which is:

-we soak a combination of mesquite and oak wood chips in 20 year aged tawny port, for a period no less than a week before bbq.
-we use hot charcoal and gumtree coals (not gas, as suggested)
-whereby throwing the soaked chips into the coals, generally inclusive of wild rosemary
-the fat and oils from our seasoned meat drip into the coals, creating further smoke and flame searing the meat to perfection

Ok, but seriously, I think you'll probably get a hundred differing opinions on whether or not to clean, season, how to season your hot plate, and so on. 

This Wikipedia article offers some insight to cleaning seasoned cast iron, including several methods that don't involve soap.

and some more banter on hygene and bbq.


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## domonsura (11/5/07)

Get the plate nice and hot, deglaze with boiling water and scrape, HTFU & throw the snags on there,
If it's really crappy and yuck, get a newspaper and half a cup of salt, scrunch the newspaper, pour the salt on the plate and scrub scrub scrub....., then rinse, get hot and no need to season the first round of steaks that go on it!


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## JSB (11/5/07)

domonsura said:


> Get the plate nice and hot, deglaze with boiling water and scrape, HTFU & throw the snags on there,
> If it's really crappy and yuck, get a newspaper and half a cup of salt, scrunch the newspaper, pour the salt on the plate and scrub scrub scrub....., then rinse, get hot and no need to season the first round of steaks that go on it!



Amen - or lemon for stubborn bits of grime.!

Cheers
JSB


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## Guest Lurker (11/5/07)

If you guys need to clean your bbq plate you need to get a dog with a longer tongue.


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## mika (11/5/07)

Your Dogs don't just have long tongues though GL, they're just generally HUGE !!


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