# 2hr all grain brewday... it can be done!



## ekul (20/6/16)

A good mate of mine has been been smashing out some really quick, great tasting brews in 2 hours, which he aptly calls the "smasher".

It consists of a 30min mash followed by a 30min boil. I've noticed a few things with the smasher, it seems to have a fuller mouthfeel and his clarity is a lot better in his smasher brew than his normal 1hr mash and 1hr boil brews.

To bring the brewday down to 2 hours is a fantastic thing, you can easily knock that out after dinner without having to worry about being up to midnight.


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## GrumpyPaul (20/6/16)

My ignorance spurned this discussion...

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/76190-10-minute-ipas-are-good-for-school-night-brewing/

Whilst I can take no credit for any of this wisdom - there are a few that came along after me and took it a bit further and tested the idea of short boils with some good results.

Happy reading


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## ekul (20/6/16)

10minute boil! I wonder how short you could make your brewday? I've read that 90% of the mash is converted within 5 minutes (i think) so i wonder if you could get away with a 20min mash and a 10minute boil. Thats getting to be a brew day as short as an extract brewday


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## dr K (20/6/16)

(Dependant on mashing regime) there is a very good chance that most of the conversion will be done in 30 minutes.
Ale malts (that have been kilned longer/higher) have much lower levels of DMS pre-cursors so a roiling 30 minute boil will give you most things except >30 minute hop utilisation, you certainly will have hot break , cold break is another thing.
The fact that the method may not be appropriate for some beers becomes irrelevant if you are not making those beers.

K


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## dr K (20/6/16)

I've read that 90% of the mash is converted within 5 minutes

Well, you have to have gelatinisation before you have saccharification
Malt specs show saccharification time in ideal and standardised lab conditions, typically around the 15 minute mark.

Of course do not try this at home !!

K


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## ekul (20/6/16)

I have a 20L pot somewhere and some 5L demi's. Might be time to do some experiments


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## buckerooni (20/6/16)

There's a 'school night brewing' thread on here somewhere with a bunch of info. I also do this 30/30 for full volume BIABs for 80% of my brews. An even shorter boil time is of interest as I no chill so hop additions could be added at whirpool and cube hops but I haven't looked into the impact of <30mins.

Have never got it under 2.5 hrs due to the ramp up time from mash to boil and whirlpooling.

I rely on the starch conversion test with iodine, which can still take at least 15-20 mins of the mash. I don't consider mashing out until this test passes.

One from one of my fav homebrew sites: http://brulosophy.com/2015/03/11/the-impact-of-boil-length-ale-exbeeriment-results/


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## Judanero (20/6/16)

This intrigues me for an APA no chill experiment, mash at 66c for 30, boil hard for 30 (~90% of bitterness is obtained from 30 mins of boiling) and then big cube hop.

Drink young.

As it it something not readily adopted by commercial breweries (they would if it ticked all the boxes) I can't help but wonder if long term flavour stability isn't compromised? How long were your mates beers kept before drinking ekul?


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## ekul (21/6/16)

Judanero said:


> How long were your mates beers kept before drinking ekul?


Never very long. They are called smashers because he smashes them out and then smashes them down.


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## Zorco (21/6/16)

dr K said:


> I've read that 90% of the mash is converted within 5 minutes
> 
> Well, you have to have gelatinisation before you have saccharification
> Malt specs show saccharification time in ideal and standardised lab conditions, typically around the 15 minute mark.
> ...


So, strike water temp tuned for your grist and tun can't be understated then....

I need to pay more attention to this...possibly pre-heat my tun.


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## Bribie G (21/6/16)

With a higher mash temperature that favours alpha amylase, conversion can occur frighteningly quickly - when I do a separate side-mash at 72 with rice or maize plus only about a kilo of base malt, the mush turns from a thick porridge into a sloppy soup in about thirty seconds.
A former member of kitten fame did his excellent Midlands mild beers for about half an hour at 71 or 72.


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## dr K (21/6/16)

In an imaginary perfect world (for brwers) alpha amylase activity would be at the lower temp range and beta at the high end !
and we would have really well converted worts ready for high attenuation.
Is the sloppy soup result of alpha amylase conversion or gelatinisation, I have never tried it so am interested, in particular given the post topic with speed.
K


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## manticle (21/6/16)

I love short high mashes for milds but boil remains the same.

I've no doubt it's something you could 'get away with' and if you were time poor but wanting to stay ag and somewhat hands on, I can see the appeal. I like what boiling brings to the party so I'll stick with it. You can make a quick and dirty beefstock that tastes good but it will never beat an extended reduction/jus done with every element in the right place.


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## MartinOC (21/6/16)

^ Wot he said.

Every short-cut you take will detract form overall quality of your beers.


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## dr K (21/6/16)

Is NoChill a shortcut?


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## manticle (21/6/16)

Nope.
Takes longer so it's better.


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## Whiteferret (21/6/16)

dr K said:


> Is NoChill a shortcut?


It takes longer.
But I know where you are coming from.

Beated by Mants


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## Zorco (21/6/16)

MartinOC said:


> ^ Wot he said.
> 
> Every short-cut you take will detract form overall quality of your beers.


Say a target conversion is 90% of available starch (humour me) then if you achieve that at 70 in 21 minutes then anything longer cannot detract from the quality.... Unless there are other things we want to happen in the mash.

Are there other things?


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## Ducatiboy stu (21/6/16)

manticle said:


> I love short high mashes for milds but boil remains the same.


Oohhh...please....Mild....marry me now...

I think Mild would be perfect for this style of brewing


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## dr K (21/6/16)

other things do happen, limit of attenuation for example....
a mash with a really high "efficiency" may stop short of what was expected..is it the ferment or the base?


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## Zorco (21/6/16)

I'm trying to follow drK but am not sure I get the question. (Due to my slowly expanding experience) 

The limit of attenuation as a function of mash control are managed solely by mash temp, temp uniformity and mash duration. ( I thought , )

Should alpha complex in 21minutes then what other process affects limit of attenuation?


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## Ducatiboy stu (21/6/16)

dr K said:


> other things do happen, limit of attenuation for example....
> a mash with a really high "efficiency" may stop short of what was expected..is it the ferment or the base?


Its all about the base, no treble.....


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## manticle (21/6/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> Say a target conversion is 90% of available starch (humour me) then if you achieve that at 70 in 21 minutes then anything longer cannot detract from the quality.... Unless there are other things we want to happen in the mash.
> Are there other things?


Well alpha will convert starch mostly to longer chain sugars (dextrins). Beta will further break those down to maltose and other shorter chain sugars.
So while starch conversion may happen quickly, getting the right balance of sugar types for the mouthfeel and thickness you want may take longer.

Hence why a short, high mash for a low alc beer like a mild works in favour of the overall balance.


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## ekul (22/6/16)

manticle said:


> I love short high mashes for milds but boil remains the same.
> 
> I've no doubt it's something you could 'get away with' and if you were time poor but wanting to stay ag and somewhat hands on, I can see the appeal. I like what boiling brings to the party so I'll stick with it. You can make a quick and dirty beefstock that tastes good but it will never beat an extended reduction/jus done with every element in the right place.


This is the thing, the smasher is actually one of his better beers imo.

The clarity is much better than usual and its really full bodied. Mash temp is high (69C) because its for a lower alcohol beer (3.5-4%). So perhaps he's accidentally speeding up his mash conversion. The malts used so far are australian so probably not much of a risk with dms.

Recently he did one with munich 1 as 30% of the malt bill so we'll see if it has any issues. Will report back in a month.


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## MHB (22/6/16)

It isn't where the malt comes from that determines the amount of SMM, the DMS precursor, more the way its malted and how well kilned the malt is.
Pale Pilsner will have more than Ale malt, Vienna, Munich and Munich 2, progressively less, basically as the malt gets darker SMM gets lower.

If you were making a low alcohol high body beer you might be able to get away with a 30 minute mash, for a lot of reasons I still wouldn't want to shorten the boil to under 60 minutes (my default is 90 minutes). Do a bit of reading up on what happens in a mash and boil if you don't understand the advantages of normal brewing processes.

Sadly if his 30/30 beer looks and tastes better than his regular beers, I suspect it says more about his regular brewing than about his short cycle brews.
Mark


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/6/16)

MHB said:


> Sadly if his 30/30 beer looks and tastes better than his regular beers, I suspect it says more about his regular brewing than about his short cycle brews.
> Mark


Yep


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## manticle (22/6/16)

ekul said:


> This is the thing, the smasher is actually one of his better beers imo.
> The clarity is much better than usual and its really full bodied. Mash temp is high (69C) because its for a lower alcohol beer (3.5-4%). So perhaps he's accidentally speeding up his mash conversion. The malts used so far are australian so probably not much of a risk with dms.
> Recently he did one with munich 1 as 30% of the malt bill so we'll see if it has any issues. Will report back in a month.


Full bodied short, high mash does work beautifully for low alc beers, I agree.

For me, boiling is one of the most important parts of flavour development pre fermentation so I tend towards longer, rather than shorter - anywhere from 90 - 3 hours, beer dependent. Try boiling a wee heavy made from just uk base and a shade of rb for 3 hours, hop additions as normal.
Great complexity, would swear there was crystal in there.

Anyway your beer/mate's beer and I can see the appeal for some. I have no need to shave time off my brewday and enjoy the results I get with current processes.


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/6/16)

manticle said:


> Try boiling a wee heavy made from just uk base and a shade of rb for 3 hours, hop additions as normal.
> Great complexity, would swear there was crystal in there.


How a Scottish should be made :icon_drool2:


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## danestead (22/6/16)

A 2 hour brew day; I find that to be stretching the truth a bit.

On my system, if I did a 30min mash and 30min boil, I'd have about 90mins of ramp time plus 15min whirlpool plus 5mins into a cube (i don't cube my beer) plus 15mins minimum clean up. That's 3 hours basically. If you have a fairy who does your cleaning, what does she charg?k


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## Bribie G (22/6/16)

dr K said:


> In an imaginary perfect world (for brwers) alpha amylase activity would be at the lower temp range and beta at the high end !
> and we would have really well converted worts ready for high attenuation.
> Is the sloppy soup result of alpha amylase conversion or gelatinisation, I have never tried it so am interested, in particular given the post topic with speed.
> K


The maize or rice has already been boiled to a thick porridge and is gelatinised, the AA seems to work at the same speed with both grains (and sometimes a mixture).


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## Bribie G (22/6/16)

Slightly off topic, but where do the enzymes actually reside during a mash?

I'm not doing mashouts any longer in order to get clearer wort remaining in the kettle when I lift (slowly) the BIAB bag as a nice grain bed has formed over the hour or hour and a half mash. I've been getting good results but always a bit concerned that by hoisting the bag at, say, 66 degrees I might be missing out on some AA activity / starch conversion.

I'd assume that the amylases would by this time be present in the wort, not the solid component of the grain, so will do their thing as I ramp the wort up through their temperature ranges?


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## MHB (22/6/16)

Around 20-30minutes at 35oC and most of the enzymes are in the liquor rather than the grist* (at anything like a sensible L:G ratio). That's why Decoction works, by taking the grain rather than the liquor away to boil you don't really reduce the available enzymes all that much - well not enough so that starch being returned to the mash wont be converted.

Funnily enough the total amount of enzymes in solution goes down from 35oC as they are progressively denatured as the temperature goes up.
People forget that there are a lot more enzymes in malt than we normally talk about (over 30 that can impact on the finished beer) probably a good dozen or so that it is worth being aware of.

And yes there will still be enough Alpha Amylase to degrade any late eluting starch as you pull the bag and heat slowly (read up on small starch granules and their gelatinisation temperature).
Hard to work through all that in 30minutes.
Mark

*The technical term is Enzyme Dissolution
edited to include.
M


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/6/16)

30min mash, not a problem as most of the malt converts by the 30m mark, especially the modern malts, may loose a touch of %eff

30min boil....um....nah....You will never get the full good bitternes you get from a 60min boil. Then there is the other stuff like DMS, break formation etc...


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## buckerooni (22/6/16)

good thread, interesting to hear the reasons behind the different approaches for mash/boil length, I guess I should read some literature instead of relying on random snippets from this forum and the occaisonal brewstrong podcasts with Palmer and Zainasheff.


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## dr K (22/6/16)

In order for the enzymes to do their job they must be in the liquor, the more liquor to grain the more quickly the enzymes degrade/denature.
MHB is as always correct there are many enzymes in the mash; but really we only really think about the major ones beta amylase, limit dextrinase and alpha amylase.
In a thicker mash the enzyme, even above their nominal denature temps last longer, but probably work slower....a thin mash favours alpha amylase and "may" convert faster but mainly through the action of alpha amylase in particular if you at the higher end of the scale (in both L:G and temp)

K


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## yankinoz (22/6/16)

A 2 hour brew reminds me of the old joke about a speed reader:

"I read Moby Dick in ten minutes."

"What was it about?"

"Something about a whale."


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## pcmfisher (23/6/16)

yankinoz said:


> A 2 hour brew reminds me of the old joke about a speed reader:
> 
> "I read Moby Dick in ten minutes."
> 
> ...


It reminds me of "I made a beer in a single vessel and no-chilled it." 

"Don't be stupid"


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/6/16)

pcmfisher said:


> It reminds me of "I made a beer in a single vessel and no-chilled it."


Thats impossible, you cant do, the beer wont turn out at all ... :- Abraham Lincoln - 1876


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## Jens-Kristian (5/7/16)

manticle said:


> Full bodied short, high mash does work beautifully for low alc beers, I agree.
> 
> For me, boiling is one of the most important parts of flavour development pre fermentation so I tend towards longer, rather than shorter - anywhere from 90 - 3 hours, beer dependent. Try boiling a wee heavy made from just uk base and a shade of rb for 3 hours, hop additions as normal.
> Great complexity, would swear there was crystal in there.
> ...



Manticle, I'm thinking of trying that long boil. I'm a sucker for the UK beers.

When you say 3hr boil and hop additions as usual, you mean with the usual timings where the hops go in during, say, the last hour or so of those three, right?


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## manticle (5/7/16)

Yep. Good for barley wines, doppelbocks and wee heavies.

Boiling hops for longer than two hours can, according to some reading anyway, result in chemical reactions that actually reduce bitterness and may have other flavour effects.

Boil 2 hours, then add bittering addition.
Boil vigorously.


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## Jens-Kristian (6/7/16)

Excellent. Thanks. 

I might do this on a beer I'm planning to emulate Belhaven's St. Andrews.


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## solipsist (6/7/16)

Out of interest - how long does it take people to heat say 35L of room temp water to strike? With my Crown at a (generous) 2400W, I've calculated it at about 50 mins, which matches reality. I've seen estimates of 20 mins for similar volume with gas. With those times, and with cleanup, surely the "2 hour" brew day is really 3 plus change? Or am I really that much of a faffer when I brew?


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (6/7/16)

I get about 35L to boil in 30 minutes from cold on the two pots on the portable cookers, or next to nix if I use hotwater from the system (Even more so if I protein rest in first and then use the 20-30m to pull up the next lot of water).


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## Tahoose (6/7/16)

If I could find my posts I would link to them. 

I have done plenty of 10min boils and I have done a full quick brew day in under 2 hours including clean up. 

My house apa works on a full 90min mash/ 10min boil and all hops into the cube. I calculate all of my hops as 20mins and aim for 30ibu. You get a nice smooth bitterness and plenty of flavour. I still dry hop 1-2g/litre

The quickest all grain brew day was a BIAB Aussie pale ale with 80% ale 20% wheat mashed for 30mins. Infusion of boiling water to mash out. Raise the bag and bring to the boil. Crank the Italian spiral burner, boil for 30 mins and no chill. It was actually a nice beer (which surprised me also)

Anyone who says it can't be done hasn't tried it. If your so adement give it a go, it won't take you long to see...

Let's not get confused also, the last two beers that I have made have been a big batch of stout and a Timothy Taylor's Landlord Clone. I wouldn't think of using these quick methods for these beers. Both of these got a full 90min mash and an hour boil. I tend to do a FWH with my 60 mins boils but that's my preference. 

Time and a place.


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