# No Chill Ibu's



## Rieewoldt (3/8/11)

Hi

I am gonna have a crack at My first AG (BIAB) on my break this week, Tony's LCBA. I will be no chilling, I have put the recipe into Brewmate and clicked the No chill option, taking the IBU from 31.3 to 56.3. Really?....If this is correct what is the best way to offset this? bring additions back 10 or so minutes? less hops?

any feedback appreciated!


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## Maxt (3/8/11)

I only no chill single 60 min hop addition beers for this very reason.
But yes, scale back your bittering hop addition to match your target.


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## Rieewoldt (3/8/11)

Can't believe it has such a big effect, why is that you reckon?


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## lastdrinks (3/8/11)

Some else can give a more detailed response but basically its because the wort in the cube is still close to boiling for a time after you put the lid on and therefore converting hops to IBU's. So those late hop additions are getting an extra 10 to 15 minutes of boil time equivilent giving of the extra IBU's.


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## bignath (3/8/11)

lastdrinks said:


> Some else can give a more detailed response but basically its because the wort in the cube is still close to boiling for a time after you put the lid on and therefore converting hops to IBU's. So those late hop additions are getting an extra 10 to 15 minutes of boil time equivilent giving of the extra IBU's.




That's about as detailed as the answer needs to be.

In addition though, i'd also say that No Chilling isn't an exact science. Neither is Chilling actually, but it's a lot closer to being exact than No Chill. The final IBU's are effected by lots of factors besides time and temp. Your ambient temp where the cube is placed after the lid's put on it is an obvious thing that will change from location to location.

Think of the No Chill button on Brewmate as being a "best guess" guide to tell you approx where the IBU's will end up. 

As i said, it's not exact, but im sure it will make recipe formulation for No Chiller (i'm one of them) a lot easier to work out bitterness levels.

FWIW, those IBU figures are probably about right. From memory, that recipe has a decent amount of hops in it and the greater the amount of hops in a no chill recipe, the greater the disparity would be between chilling and no chilling.

eg: an aussie style knock off recipe that has 20g of POR will be effected less by no chilling than a massively hopped 200g IPA.....


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## mje1980 (3/8/11)

I dont make any changes to hop calcs. Never noticed a perceptable difference. Like has been said, not an exact science, plus people's taste's are different also.


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## Goofinder (3/8/11)

Personally, I think this whole massively increased IBU/20-minute-addition-becomes-a-cube-hop-addition-or-whatever thing is a load of crap based on a few people who have desensitised themselves by brewing massively overhopped beers and come up with some crazy tables on the internet and managed to convince a few people. I will believe it when someone brews identical beers side by side under controlled conditions and has the IBU tested.

Consider the following:
- Isomerisation of alpha acids is related to temperature and drops down to about 10% over a 90 minute boil at 70 degrees [1]
- Even when chilling, you whirlpool and let the wort sit for 10-15 minutes to form a tight trub cone
- If you're doing it right, you remove the hops form the wort when you drain the kettle using some kind of filter or a pickup tube/siphon and only take clear wort
- There will be less convection in a cube of wort than in a boiling kettle which will also reduce isomerisation

Hence the hops aren't really in the wort at high enough temperatures any longer than with chilling. There will likely be some compounds left over and it does take a bit longer to cool down, but a 79% increase in bitterness (31.3 to 56.3 IBU)? Seriously?

If you start doing silly things like adding hops to the hot cube then all bets are off though...

Calculations in any brewing software are only a guide anyway based on a variety of approximations. Your best bet is to brew the beer as is and calibrate yourself against a commercial sample (with a published IBU figure) for reference. Then make any adjustments to your process _if necessary_ to suit your taste.

[1] http://ift.confex.com/ift/2004/techprogram/paper_25787.htm


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## bignath (3/8/11)

Goofinder said:


> - Even when chilling, you whirlpool and let the wort sit for 10-15 minutes to form a tight trub cone
> - If you're doing it right, you remove the hops form the wort when you drain the kettle using some kind of filter or a pickup tube/siphon and only take clear wort
> 
> Hence the hops aren't really in the wort at high enough temperatures any longer than with chilling. There will likely be some compounds left over and it does take a bit longer to cool down, but a 79% increase in bitterness (31.3 to 56.3 IBU)? Seriously?




I thought it was the oils in the hops that were isomerised and therefore bitterness would still be affected. You may leave the green stuff behind but that doesn't mean bitterness isn't changing in the wort.

Happy to be corrected on this.


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/8/11)

I do a lot of no-chill and they are not big hopped IPAś... mostly around 35-40 IBU

There is a change on hop flavour and taste, but its not over the top, but it does tend to become more bitter than a chilled beer.

Adjusting hop additions to account for this for this may help, but it is a tricky thing to do.

It is just one of the downsides of n0-chill beers


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## Amber Fluid (3/8/11)

It won;t be long before I start BIAB brews and this is starting to worry me a bit. Is it worth worrying about or should I just do one and taste for myself?
I will be no-chilling into a 15L cube but am worried now that any hop additions I make will be a bit over the top.
What about late additions for Aroma?... will this impart into more bittering instead?

Sorry if this is slightly OT but here seemed the perfected time to ask without having to make a new thread.


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## j1gsaw (3/8/11)

If im doing a big hoppy beer and concerned about over bittering with NC, i usually just chill the wort for like 5/10 mins then cube it, it takes away the boiling point but still remains hot enough to ward off any nasties in the cube. works great imo.


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## mxd (3/8/11)

Amber Fluid said:


> It won;t be long before I start BIAB brews and this is starting to worry me a bit. Is it worth worrying about or should I just do one and taste for myself?




just do it, try the beer and then tune the recipe, if you think it's too bitter and without the aroma, then look at moving your late hops later or drop the late hops and do some dry hopping, french pressing etc..

I have tasted some 90 IBU beer and thought it was magnificent and then had a 30 IBU thought I thought was harsh and bitter, it comes down to balance


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## mje1980 (3/8/11)

I just finished a 10 min APA, in which i did NOT adjust hop calcs for no chil. The keg did not last too long  . I think its a good idea to keep it simple first up. If you think its too harsh, next batch, adjust the hop calcs a little, and so on etc.

Since i started no chilling ( 18 months at least? ) i have not noticed any of the beers being any more bitter, and no one has tasted them and screwed their face up hehe.


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## big78sam (3/8/11)

Goofinder said:


> Personally, I think this whole massively increased IBU/20-minute-addition-becomes-a-cube-hop-addition-or-whatever thing is a load of crap based on a few people who have desensitised themselves by brewing massively overhopped beers and come up with some crazy tables on the internet and managed to convince a few people. I will believe it when someone brews identical beers side by side under controlled conditions and has the IBU tested.
> 
> Consider the following:
> - Isomerisation of alpha acids is related to temperature and drops down to about 10% over a 90 minute boil at 70 degrees [1]
> ...




Waits for Thirstyboy to respond.... 

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...55867&st=20

EDIT: linky


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## manticle (3/8/11)

Goofinder said:


> Personally, I think this whole massively increased IBU/20-minute-addition-becomes-a-cube-hop-addition-or-whatever thing is a load of crap based on a few people who have desensitised themselves by brewing massively overhopped beers and come up with some crazy tables on the internet and managed to convince a few people. I will believe it when someone brews identical beers side by side under controlled conditions and has the IBU tested.



Not quite as scientific but I currently have a house APA which relies a lot on late hopping cold conditioning in 2 cubes. One cube chilled, the other no chilled, split batch. I won't be getting the IBU tested but I will be doing some side by sides and getting other tongues to taste. Mainly for my own curiosity in regards to bitterness, flavour and aroma in NC hoppy beers.

I no chill every batch currently and am happy with the results. I struggle to believe it will add 26 IBU but who knows?

Essentially the IBU numbers are theoretical unless you get them measured and if you brew beer that you are happy with and know your system and methods then I think that's the most important thing.


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## mxd (3/8/11)

manticle said:


> I currently have a house APA which relies a lot on late hopping




If that is the house APA I tried that was bewdiful, be interested to see the results. There was a similar test down by a couple of brewers and I don't think the results were conclusive enough.


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## manticle (3/8/11)

You've tried the NC version. Glad you liked it.


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## Maple (3/8/11)

mxd said:


> If that is the house APA I tried that was bewdiful, be interested to see the results. There was a similar test down by a couple of brewers and I don't think the results were conclusive enough.


Whatchutalkingbout Willis? Those results were plenty conclusive.


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## mxd (3/8/11)

Maple said:


> Whatchutalkingbout Willis? Those results were plenty conclusive.




I wasn't there it was just hear say  and blame a person who's first name is very similar to my last name 

I got the impression the beers tasted so different you couldn't put it down to the chill / no chill ?


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## ekul (3/8/11)

I do believe that nochilling does increase the bittering, especially with pellets. I do a beer that is calculated as having 6ibus when nochilling isn't applied, howeveer when i add 15mins to all my additions it comes out at 18. This beer has def more bitter than 6ibus. It has galaxy at the tale end which is a pretty bitter hop, and it is a very delicate procedure to give my beer flavour without making it crazy bitter.

When using flowers I calculate flameout and cube hops as a 10min addition, when using pellets i calculate this as a 15min addition. I have done a few experiments with predominately cube hopping, i wasn't real impressed by it but it did show me the difference between pellets and flowers in the cube.


Kayne- You could read about Argons method of post-cube hop additions. Basically when he makes the beer he doesn't add any of the later hops. When the cube is coool he chucks it in the fridge and gets it down to 4C. Then he removes a few litres, boils his late addition of hops and then adds this and the 4C wort into the fermenter, bringing the temp up to 18C. Its a good thread and i've been meaning to try it.

Or you could try a beer that only has a bittering additions, like andrewQLD's coopers pale ale.


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## Goofinder (3/8/11)

big78sam said:


> Waits for Thirstyboy to respond....
> 
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...55867&st=20
> 
> EDIT: linky


Hmm, hadn't seen that post, interesting read. The advice at the end is good - adjusting the amount of hops, not when they are added. My main issue is with this practice of 'moving' hop additions because of massive IBU increases and the belief that you can't get hop aroma in no chilled beers.

For what it's worth, I just target my recipes at ~5 IBU below where they would normally sit in the style guidelines I am aiming for. I base my flavour and aroma hop additions on an x g/L ratio and make up the bittering with a 60 minute addition.

I agree that you're going to get _some_ increase in bitterness, but 79% (for the example above)? Not likely.


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## Tim (3/8/11)

manticle said:


> ...........I currently have a house APA ...........



Manticle, care to share the recipe or link to it in the RecipeDB?


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## manticle (3/8/11)

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...amp;recipe=1276


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## Tim (3/8/11)

Awesome


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## drtomc (3/8/11)

FWIW, I've had good results using FWH (First Wort Hopping) + dry hops as my only hopping in my ESB. Sidesteps the NC-hops thing.

T.


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## stux (3/8/11)

I've begun to move my additions up 15 mins in brewing software, then decreasing my bittering addition until I get the original IBUs.

I actually add the hops at the original schedule and leave the late additions as is.

So for example, 60, 20, 5 will be entered into brewing software as 75, 35 and 20. I then vary the 75 min addition until I get my original desired IBUs.

And I still add the hops as 60, 20 and 5.

My results have been fairly good, and as long as you consistantly make the changes, it should work out well.

The 5 min becoming FWH tables are rubbish

(and it saves money!)


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## drsmurto (3/8/11)

Goofinder said:


> Personally, I think this whole massively increased IBU/20-minute-addition-becomes-a-cube-hop-addition-or-whatever thing is a load of crap based on a few people who have desensitised themselves by brewing massively overhopped beers and come up with some crazy tables on the internet and managed to convince a few people. I will believe it when someone brews identical beers side by side under controlled conditions and has the IBU tested.
> 
> Consider the following:
> - Isomerisation of alpha acids is related to temperature and drops down to about 10% over a 90 minute boil at 70 degrees [1]
> ...



The chemical reaction that occurs (alpha acid to iso-alpha acid) will still occur at temperatures below 100C. I am not aware of any chemical reactions that stop completely when the temperatures drops a few degrees. The reaction rate will slow down, not stop instantly.

So as the wort cools down by itself isomerisaton is still occurring. The rate of colling will determine the slowing down of the rate is isomerisation.

But as you very correctly pointed out, very few brewers switch off their kettles and instantaneously chill their worts down to pitching temps.

Most of us would likely add aroma hops (if needed) then whirlpool and let it settle for 10-15 mins before beginning the chilling process. I have never chilled immediately after flameout as i use a plate chiller and need the hot break and hops to settle before chilling. Those with immersion chillers can start chilling immediately.

What is the temperature of the wort 10 mins after flameout? I don't know the answer so this is not a loaded question.

So we all are getting an increase in IBU after flameout based on the assumption that any software we use to calculate IBU doesn't take this into account.

The link to ThirstyBoys post was interesting and given his ability to measure IBU it would be very useful for him to comment on the above points.

Cheers
DrSmurto - synthetic chemist


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## Thirsty Boy (3/8/11)

Goofinder said:


> Personally, I think this whole massively increased IBU/20-minute-addition-becomes-a-cube-hop-addition-or-whatever thing is a load of crap based on a few people who have desensitised themselves by brewing massively overhopped beers and come up with some crazy tables on the internet and managed to convince a few people. I will believe it when someone brews identical beers side by side under controlled conditions and has the IBU tested.
> 
> Consider the following:
> - Isomerisation of alpha acids is related to temperature and drops down to about 10% over a 90 minute boil at 70 degrees [1]
> ...



I did do controlled brews and had the ibus tested, as the above post points out. They are higher for NC worts. In the particular circumstances i tested the ibus were increased by an amount roughly equivalent to what would be achieved by boiling the hops for an extra 10-20 mins and rapidly chilling the wort.

In an NC cube the wort stays pretty hot and stays pretty hot for a long time, certainly long enough to isomerise a significant portion of the alpha acids that might be dissolved into your hot wort from late hop additions.

As has been mentioned, its still a very inexact "science" to guess your NC IBUs - how much it differs from rapidly chilled wort will depend on a bunch of things and it definitely only happens to any extent that need concern people when they are making a brew with late high alpha acid hops. But can it be an issue? - absolutely it can.

People didn't decide that NC beers _would_ be more bitter because of reasons A, B and C - peple noticed that their NC beers were sometimes markedly more bitter than they were expecting and went looking for both explanations and possible ways to quantify it so they could compensate. I have no idea if brewmate gives a reasonable calculation of how NC effects bitterness. But effect it it does.

Dr Smurto - thats why its "art" rather than science. How are the ibus different for a brewer who chills with an immersion chiller vs a plate chiller? Obviously they will be because an immersion chiller drops their entore wort volume rapidly to the point where isomerisation is negligable.. A plate chiller has hot wort in contact with hops... But not all of the wort and the wholeq process is fairly fast. Whirlpool hops - obviously adds bitterness and most commercials would know this and compensate, but the brewing software does't take it into account... Just zero IBUs for anything after flameout.

Thats why you cant say anything about how a given no-chill process will compare to a given brewer's chilling process for a given beer. There are just too many variables - it might make no differrence, or the difference might be profound. I seem to recall in my tests for straigh no-chill vs chill (notes lost in hard drive crash so i dont have exact figures or method...) that i took into acount a modest whirlpool rest, then seperated the wort into two 2L erlemyers and rapidly chilled one (water bath) while letting the other cool down at approximately the rate an nc cube would cool. All hops in a sock so greenery seperation wasn't an issue. I looked at the percentage increase in IBUs one vs the other and as it turned out neither of them were even close to the ibus predicted by rager and pro-mash for the hopping regime used.

i think that if a recipe contains significant late hopping with high alpha acid hops, then you are likely toJ notice a significant increase in bitterness if you no-chill the beer vs if you rapidly cool the wort - BUT - I think people who are unsure should always just brew a recipe as its written and not worry about this stuff. If it turns out more bitter than they were expecting, then this stuff might be a place to start looking for explanations and solutions. If you are an experienced no chiller and know how your system generally performs... Then you already know what to do and my opinion, what the software says or what anyone else says is irrelevant to you, do what works for your system and tastebuds.


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## bradsbrew (3/8/11)

DrSmurto said:


> Cheers
> DrSmurto - synthetic chemist



You mean your not an explosives expert? Bloody beer notes.  

Good read all the same. Has almost got me contimplating trying chilling.

Cheers


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## herbo (3/8/11)

Personally when I read Goofinder's original post (as in the whole no chill and adjusting your hop schedule is a load of crap) I was tempted to post that I agree. Then I read the post by Thirstyboy that's linked in this thread and thought more about it. The main point that I can add to argument is that at one of our previous brew meet ups here in sunny Ballarat there were two of us brewers that had bought along the famous Tony's Bright Ale in bottle, both of us had used the same recipe (including hop schedules), mine was no-chilled and the other was chilled. No-one that tasted them side-by-side could taste any difference.

I know the above is hardly very scientific. In addition the following are points related to what I have done in the past:
1. I never adjust hop additions.
2. All hop additions go into one of the large Craftbrewer hop socks, and then hop sock (and spent hops) are removed once the burner goes out - this is a variable that TB mentions in his linked post. I'm not sure if it makes any difference (i.e. removing them), but perhaps it makes some.
3. After the boil I wait about 10 mins for all of the heat currents to subside, then whirlpool, then probably wait another 10 mins. Then drain into the cube. Last time I did this I measured the temp of the wort when I was draining it into the cube and it was 82 degrees.
4. If there is a 0 min addition I usually put that in a small piece of voile into the cube. For my tastes I've had no issues with getting the aroma I want doing it this way so haven't felt the need to try anything different.

Anyway I'm from the school of no hop adjustments for no-chill and will continue that way. Works for me.


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## Thirsty Boy (3/8/11)

I significantly edited my post above to address Dr Smurto.


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## bradsbrew (3/8/11)

herbo said:


> 4. If there is a 0 min addition I usually put that in a small piece of voile into the cube. For my tastes I've had no issues with getting the aroma I want doing it this way so haven't felt the need to try anything different.




Your point 4 has me interested. 

I am now thinking what if I added my 10min hops, in a peice of voile with floss attatched, to a nearly full cube as it fills and when it is full screw the cap on as per usual. Then after 15 min remove the viole, squeeze out air space and rescrew on cap. Yes there will still be oils present but surely this process would lower the IBU's created as opposed to the normal late/cube hop addition???????????

Cheers Brad


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## Maxt (3/8/11)

Anyone who says no chilling, using late hopped high AA hops adds no extra bitterness....is a moron.


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## bradsbrew (3/8/11)

Maxt said:


> Anyone who says no chilling, using late hopped high AA hops adds no extra bitterness....is a moron.



IMHO if you add high AA hops even as a dry hop it can be percieved as more bitter.


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## QldKev (3/8/11)

Maxt said:


> Anyone who says no chilling, using late hopped high AA hops adds no extra bitterness....is a moron.






bradsbrew said:


> IMHO if you add high AA hops even as a dry hop it can be percieved as more bitter.



This thread went from I can read a stupid program with stupid 1 fits all no-chill corrections, that is retarded 

TO, I have taste buds 

Awesome

I'm not saying I know all, but use your own taste buds and it is easy

QldKev


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## argon (3/8/11)

bradsbrew said:


> Your point 4 has me interested.
> 
> I am now thinking what if I added my 10min hops, in a peice of voile with floss attatched, to a nearly full cube as it fills and when it is full screw the cap on as per usual. Then after 15 min remove the viole, squeeze out air space and rescrew on cap. Yes there will still be oils present but surely this process would lower the IBU's created as opposed to the normal late/cube hop addition???????????
> 
> Cheers Brad


Brad the only time I've added hops in a bag into the cube (normally commando) it was a major pain in the arse to get the bag out. The hops swell up like a 13 year old at strip club. Not saying it can't be done... But I wouldn't want to be doing it in almost boiling hot wort in a cube.


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## NickB (3/8/11)

I have cube hopped a few times, and I usually just throw them in the cube, then into primary. Mind you, I've only done this with stupidly hoppy US beers. Works a treat though!

Cheers


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## bradsbrew (3/8/11)

argon said:


> Brad the only time I've added hops in a bag into the cube (normally commando) it was a major pain in the arse to get the bag out. The hops swell up like a 13 year old at strip club. Not saying it can't be done... But I wouldn't want to be doing it in almost boiling hot wort in a cube.






NickB said:


> I have cube hopped a few times, and I usually just throw them in the cube, then into primary. Mind you, I've only done this with stupidly hoppy US beers. Works a treat though!
> 
> Cheers


Yep I've done the cube hop thingy before and have had mixed results. Was thinking more along the lines if I could remove them it "should/could" yeild more flavour/aroma and less of the associated bitterness that cube hopping brings and hopefully get me closer to a chilled beer. Perhaps something similar to a CB hop blocker that won't swell and will slip back through the cap hole?

Cheers


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## lastdrinks (3/8/11)

I think the original poster has been scared off.


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## fergi (3/8/11)

as a n/c brewer i find this topic pretty interesting,i have never chilled my beers and as i have only done around 10 ag brews i am hardly qualified to comment on the added/perceived bitterness of no chill,however as a "MORON" i have tasted the same brews that i have made against a mate who chills his wort,same recipes ,same procedure except chill/no chill.now both of us cannot taste any added bitterness between the two different methods,

now admittedly i think the beers i have made are all 60 min boils and not big beers,but do you think the perceived added bitterness is the same as the placebo effect in medicinal tests.is it really as much as some people believe, i dont know , maybe people think it should be more bitter so they believe it.

fergi


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## drsmurto (3/8/11)

bradsbrew said:


> You mean your not an explosives expert? Bloody beer notes.
> 
> Cheers



Synthesis and explosives go hand in hand  

@ThirstyBoy - good response. One question, when you compared NC vs rapid chilling and included a small whirlpool rest did you take into account the difference in thermal mass of your 2L experiments vs a standard size single batch (20L)? A 2L batch will naturally cool down much quicker than a 20L batch. Not knocking you, just throwing out a query.

But i disagree, it's not an art at all. It's very much science. You could, if you had the right equipment, approach this question from a very scientific point of view. The reason why it hasn't been answered satisfactorily in the scientific literature is that commercial breweries chill and thus the answer is irrelevant to them. And yes, i have searched (and not via google scholar). 

The end result is beer and you brewed it yourself.

If you are happy with it then it doesn't matter whether NC adds bitterness or not. :chug:


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## felon (3/8/11)

> The end result is beer and you brewed it yourself.
> 
> If you are happy with it then it doesn't matter whether NC adds bitterness or not.



Well said DR.


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## drtomc (3/8/11)

@DrSmurto, you're absolutely right it is a science. The problem in practice is that even if we correctly characterise the process, for most of us, there are too many variables to control. Which doesn't mean you don't try.... Hey, I'm a computational biologist - I'm confronted with too many variables to control every day of the week, and I don't mean the wife or the kids. 

T.


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## manticle (3/8/11)

Maxt said:


> Anyone who says no chilling, using late hopped high AA hops adds no extra bitterness....is a moron.




Has anyone actually said that?


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## mje1980 (4/8/11)

No one said that, but obviously there's an expert who knows better than everyone!


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## Maxt (4/8/11)

Umm, here's couple....



mje1980 said:


> I dont make any changes to hop calcs. Never noticed a perceptable difference.






Goofinder said:


> Personally, I think this whole massively increased IBU/20-minute-addition-becomes-a-cube-hop-addition-or-whatever thing is a load of crap



My point stands; anyone who says using (for example) Galaxy as 0 min addition, will give the same bitterness no chilling as in someone who get the wort below 80degrees in a few minute, is a very deluded brewer.

You will also note in my first post, that I said I don't get any bitterness difference when using singe 60 min hop addition no chilled beers.

Comprehension, a dying art.

BTW mje1980, the last line of your sig says it all :lol:


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## mje1980 (4/8/11)

I made no mention of late hopped high alpha hops, did I ??


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## manticle (4/8/11)

Maxt said:


> Umm, here's couple....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There's a difference saying you don't make changes to calcs or that you believe that software is overcalculating the increase and specifically suggesting that late high aa% hops make NO difference
whatsoever. That's very specific.

As far as I know mje mainly makes bitters and milds so in those circumstances the difference is probably imperceptible. I doubt he's talking about 10 min IPAs with 180g of 14% aa hops.

Goofinder also said in his/her post that s/he DID believe it made a difference - just that the difference is overstated.

I make no changes to calcs either but I've never suggested it makes no difference. To find out the difference is exactly why I'm currentl doing a chill vs no chil experiment with a highly late hopped beer.

No need to get hoity toity.


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## Goofinder (4/8/11)

manticle said:


> Goofinder also said in his/her post that s/he DID believe it made a difference - just that the difference is overstated.


Correct, he did say that. And he still thinks that (the difference reported by Brewmate in this instance is overstated).

I think (almost) everyone agrees that there will be some increase in bitterness extracted. Whether or not this is perceptible will depend on the hopping schedule for the beer.

I originally thought that most people were _moving_ hop additions based on a table that someone worked out for their own process. I don't read all the threads on this site, and I skip over most of the no chill ones because they are full of this sort of crap. 

From what I have read in this thread it seems that at least some are _adjusting_ hop additions based on an anticipated increase in bitterness. This way makes more sense to me.


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## Flewy (4/8/11)

mxd said:


> I wasn't there it was just hear say  and blame a person who's first name is very similar to my last name
> 
> I got the impression the beers tasted so different you couldn't put it down to the chill / no chill ?



That'll teach you for staying home and relying on a n00b then won't it?


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## Mikedub (4/8/11)

this topic continually *#@$ with my head, think I might have to buy an immersion chiller so I can get some sleep


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## Thirsty Boy (5/8/11)

DrSmurto said:


> Synthesis and explosives go hand in hand
> 
> @ThirstyBoy - good response. One question, when you compared NC vs rapid chilling and included a small whirlpool rest did you take into account the difference in thermal mass of your 2L experiments vs a standard size single batch (20L)? A 2L batch will naturally cool down much quicker than a 20L batch. Not knocking you, just throwing out a query.
> 
> ...



Is true Dr S,

I did think about it, but it came down to a "how long is a piece of string" question. If i tried to emulate an actual "full volume" cool, how fast would that be? As fast as a CF chiller? a plate chiller? An immersion chiller? Kettle in an ice bath? I'd either have to do em all or just pick a "near enough" solution. I figured that someone running with something like a JZ whirlpool-chiller type setup would be getting down to the sorts of temps where isomerisation would be negligible in maybe 5-10 minutes - and plunking a 2L erlenmyer into a waterbath and walking away is in that ball park. Near enough.... The NC version was easy, i just floated the 2Ls in an actual 20L bucket of water at cube temps and let it cool down by itself. Done.

I'd un-art it if i could, but testing for IBUs is a less than effortless process and i dont want to burn up all my good will with the lab guys. One of these days I will get them to show me how to do the test myself (the trimethylpentane/spectrophotometer one... I dont think they'll let me play with the HPLC machine) then i will revisit this stuff testing a few more variables and doing some repeats to add some validity.

In the meantime we will have to rely on the couple of rough tests i managed, to show that indeed something is happening - and rely on experience, tastebuds and a whole lot of arm waving to give us the "how much" of the situation.


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## Thirsty Boy (5/8/11)

Mikedub said:


> this topic continually *#@$ with my head, think I might have to buy an immersion chiller so I can get some sleep



Why? - its only complicated if people want to talk about the if, why, when and where of it. In your brewery in your house is as simple as:

Q. Are some of my beers too bitter?

A = No > do nothing

A = Yes > in those beers, use less bittering hops until they aren't anymore

And thats it.


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## lastdrinks (5/8/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Why? - its only complicated if people want to talk about the if, why, when and where of it. In your brewery in your house is as simple as:
> 
> Q. Are some of my beers too bitter?
> 
> ...




Agreed, but i do like watching a little flame war


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## mje1980 (5/8/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Why? - its only complicated if people want to talk about the if, why, when and where of it. In your brewery in your house is as simple as:
> 
> Q. Are some of my beers too bitter?
> 
> ...



+1000!!


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## Mikedub (5/8/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Why? - its only complicated if people want to talk about the if, why, when and where of it. In your brewery in your house is as simple as:
> 
> Q. Are some of my beers too bitter?
> 
> ...



my post was intended as tounge n cheek, I probably should have stuck in a little yellow winking dude .
If I were losing sleep over a few IBUs I should be reviewing my priorities 


my NC approach is still refining, as are other areas of my brewing, good thing too, otherwise it would get boring,

what has been working for me is I push the IBUs right up to the top of the style range almost always using a combo of first wort hopping at 45min, (the 10% increased bittering as reported in FWH articles I've read does not seem to overly bitter), I then whirlpool/cube/dry hop from there as required, happy as bro


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