# Substitutes For Victory And Special Roast



## mfdes (16/1/08)

Hi all,

What are people using to sub either Victory or Special Roast in their brews? I adapt a few recipes that use them and generally just up the crystals or munich a bit to make up the colour. Is there any similarity between the results obtained with these and other medium roasted malts like amber malt?
Failing that, is anybody importing Briess malts in Australia?

MFS


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## goatherder (16/1/08)

I believe Brown Malt is a good sub for Special Roast and Amber Malt for Victory. I haven't tried the Briess malts so I can't verify this personally.


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## steve_flack (17/1/08)

I asked Jamil Zainasheff this same question and he suggested biscuit malt as a sub for victory. He said Special Roast was a harder one to sub for but suggested Amber malt.


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## mika (17/1/08)

Special roast, isn't that the Carafa Special ?


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## steve_flack (17/1/08)

No...completely different.


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## barneyhanway (17/1/08)

I was under the impression Victory == biscuit == amber. Special roast was something else I thought. Love to get hold of some.


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## braufrau (17/1/08)

I've never done it but I thought cara-aroma was considered a good sub for special B.
That's what craftbrewer says too linky
Victory is supposed to have a slight toasted biscuit aroma so amber would be a subst. but its a bit darker.


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## sanders4_ (17/1/08)

I'm also interested on hearing peoples opinions on a good sub for victory malt.

Found a malt comparison table during a previous search on this topic.

HERE

Might be helpful...

Other forum members suggested Munich II, Amber or Melanoidin malt as victory subs, but again, having never used it, can't say.

Wessmith had this info about victory:

Victory malt is a registered brand name of Breiss Malting in the US. It is an Amber style of malt giving biscuity flavours and aromas and at 28 Lovibond (75 EBC) ia about halfway between Joe White Amber at 45 EBC and TF Amber at 100 EBC. Use either and adjust for colour.

can find the original post Here


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## Doc (17/1/08)

I came up with CaraRed as a sub for Victory in my weekend recipe. 
Not sure how close it is, but the CaraRed I had was a lot fresher than the Amber I found.
Would be great to know as a lot of the Brewing Network Jamil recipes list Victory.

Doc


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## KoNG (17/1/08)

I'd say you have the EBC about right there Doc, i've got some carared and its around 50ebc i think (~47). but being a crystal i think your going to be a bit off in terms of flavour profile if using any decent amount..?
victory/amber malt not being a crystal - giving the dry biscuity (jamil's favourite word) flavours and the carared leaving you some sweetness.???


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## sanders4_ (17/1/08)

Doc, thats exactly why i'm after a close sub, Jamil and Palmer's newish book uses it for a lot of APA recipes.

steve_flack said Jamil suggested a biscuit malt, does craftbrewer sell a biscuit malt? Don't recall seeing one and can't check atm.


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## Sammus (17/1/08)

Use TF Amber for Special Roast and JW Amber for Victory

According to BeerSmith, 
Victory = 49.3 EBC, JW Amber = 45.3 EBC
Special roast = 98.5 EBC, TF Amber = 100EBC

I know Thomas Fawcett malts are available from MHB (I think? - he might want to confirm this), not sure who else.


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## Ross (17/1/08)

sanders4_ said:


> Wessmith had this info about victory:
> 
> Victory malt is a registered brand name of Breiss Malting in the US. It is an Amber style of malt giving biscuity flavours and aromas and at 28 Lovibond (75 EBC) ia about halfway between Joe White Amber at 45 EBC and TF Amber at 100 EBC. Use either and adjust for colour.
> 
> can find the original post Here



Our Bairds amber is currently 85 EBC, so would be my guess as the closest substitute available here...

cheers Ross


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## Sammus (17/1/08)

braufrau said:


> I've never done it but I thought cara-aroma was considered a good sub for special B.
> That's what craftbrewer says too linky
> Victory is supposed to have a slight toasted biscuit aroma so amber would be a subst. but its a bit darker.



You are correct, but Special B is different to special roast


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## Ross (17/1/08)

Doc said:


> I came up with CaraRed as a sub for Victory in my weekend recipe.
> Not sure how close it is, but the CaraRed I had was a lot fresher than the Amber I found.
> Would be great to know as a lot of the Brewing Network Jamil recipes list Victory.
> 
> Doc



Hi Doc,

Carared is one of my favourite malts, but it's a pure light crystal, giving a rich honey aroma. It is nothing like Victory, which is an Amber style malt.

Cheers Ross


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## mikem108 (17/1/08)

Regarding malt substitution Jamil says the following

"Special Roast is probably the most difficult malt to try and find an exact replacement. That malt is toasty/bready and slightly tangy/sweet. The do some sort of double kilning process which makes the malt sour up just a tiny bit. It is very unusual. I generally tell people to just go with about 50% of some bready malt and 50% of some crystal 40L."


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## mfdes (17/1/08)

Thanks everyone. 
I guess it'll just be suck it and see :lol: . I'm trying to use less grains rather than more in my recipes, so may omit them entirely.

MFS


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## Thirsty Boy (18/1/08)

I did much the same as a couple of others and asked Jamil -

In my case about Victory and Biscuit - he said they were "similar" and you could sort of sub on for the other, but when I sent him the list of grains that G&G had available, he went with Bairds amber for Biscuit and guessed at JWM amber for victory

mikem108 - thats good info, I am sure I'l use that one of these days. Thanks


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## Stagger (18/1/08)

David Cryer Said this

American Victory Malt 

25 lovibond, Briess Malting 

A specialty grain used for its warm toasted character, mostly employed in English ales. Gives beer a slight red/amber tint when used in small amounts. It will improve body and head retention. 

Also check out http://www.briess.com/pdf/ONLY%20Customer%...t%20handout.pdf

It is a roasted malt but quite light in colour.

Ex Bairds Amber 100-140EBC or Brown 110EBC would offer a similar flavour.

Ex Weyermann Carared 40-50EBC and Melanoidin 60-80EBC give the reddish hue and biscuity flavour. I think using some Vienna 7-9EBC in conjunction with Carared 40-50EBC will also have an effect like this.

In summary if you want Nut Brown Ale toasty flavour use Amber/Brown or Melanoidin which gives dryer finish. If you want a red colour and a background biscuity flavour use Vienna/Carared or such like.



Cheers

Craig


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## neonmeate (18/1/08)

what about the belgian (brewferm) biscuit (19L) and aromatic(56L) that ESB/Dave's Homebrew North Sydney had in? the aromatic was a lot darker than usual, could be good for special roast? anyone tried these?


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