# Strong Taste Of Dr Smurto Golden Ale - Kit Version



## Digger11 (16/11/09)

KIT VERSION
1 can Thomas Coopers Sparkling Ale
1 can Coopers Wheat Malt
250g Caramalt (or other light crystal)
15g Amarillo @ 15, 5 and dry hop.
Yeast - US05

Brewed this 7 weeks ago. 
2 weeks in fermentor
1 week cold conditioning
4 weeks aging in bottles.

The flavour and smell are still very strong for my liking. I think it is the Amarillo ??? The taste bites at the back of my tongue and lasts for about 3-4 minutes after each sip.
I tried mixing the Golden Ale with some basic Kit Coopers Home Brew 50/50 and still found the Golden Ale to be too strong.

Anyone else found this? I have drank bottle 6 and not enjoyed any of them. I am trying to convicne myself that I will get used to it but not sure.


thanks
Digger


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## Pollux (16/11/09)

How would you describe the taste??

It may be the Amarillo, it may be something about the malt bill, it may be an infection...

I can remember my all Amarillo ale tasted horrid, but I think an accidental ferment at 28deg caused that.


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## Digger11 (16/11/09)

I am happy with my technique. 18-20 degrees the whole time OG 1046 FG 1010. 

Hard to describe taste - but it tastes like it smells - my wife won't have a bar of it (she likes the plain simple Coopers Kit though).

Doesn't taste off or anything, just a back of the tongue slight bitterness flavour. Maybe taste a bit rough ? W

What should Amarillo taste like ?

Could I try the same brew with no hops ? woudl it be drinkable ?


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## muay (16/11/09)

Possibly old extract. Where did you buy it & how long have you had it sitting on the shelf?


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## Digger11 (16/11/09)

All from Grain and Grape in Yarraville - bought on a Friday and brewed on a Saturday.

Had nearly 2 years to go on the use by dates.


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## roverfj1200 (16/11/09)

Hi digger.

IMO thats a lot of Amarillo, for my taste buds. Some would like that much, but for me 10g Amarillo @ 10min is enough.

Amarillo should taste fruity like passion fruit with a bit of citrus. I'd cut back on the flovaur hops and work your way up till you hit a sweet spot in you taste.

Cheers


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## Digger11 (16/11/09)

thanks Rover,

Beer is not fruity at all. More bitey. 

I am starting to think that maybe it is a little bit off or something?

What does an off brew smell and taste like ? Is it drinkable ?

I have drunk 6 bottles of Dr Smurto's and it is o.k. just not very nice. Nice head, very clear and bubbly too. No sediment in the bottles.

I wanted to give them as xmas presents - but they need to be drinkable for that.


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## corcatraz (16/11/09)

Digger11 said:


> thanks Rover,
> 
> Beer is not fruity at all. More bitey.
> 
> ...



Hey Digger, I've little experience but when I gave some DSGA to my mates they just said it was fruity. From a guy who loves his XXXX gold, he sucked it back without flinching.

Mine was slightly bitey for the first 2 weeks in bottle but really settled after that. Maybe yours is just taking a little longer? 
No experience with off brews sorry mate. Good luck


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## roverfj1200 (16/11/09)

Digger never had a off brew or an infection. But over hopped I've done that and thats like you say I can drink it but it lingers in the mouth and your not sure if its drinkable or not..

I do think it is just to hoppy for you..

Cheers


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## Adamt (16/11/09)

How long did you dry hop for? Leaving dry hops in for too long can lend a harsh resiny character which is similar to what you described - a bitter, mouth puckering sensation that lingers.


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## InCider (16/11/09)

I once dropped 50grams of Green Bullet into the fermenter... it was bloody awesome!


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## bum (16/11/09)

How large and what gravity was your boil and how long did it take to cool down? Could just be your flavour additions turning to bittering if it stayed hot for a long time after flameout (that's if adamt's plausible reason doesn't quite fit).

Personally, I've made that recipe before and all I can taste is kit beer.


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## Digger11 (16/11/09)

Adamt,
I dry hopped directly at flameout (isn't that what 0 mins means) ? Only had 40g of Amarillo , so went 15g @15mins, 15g @5mins and 10g at 0 min.
A resiny taste is a good way to describe it.

Bum, I did the Kit version so I only steeped the Caramalt at 66 degrees and then boiled for 15mins for the Hop addiitons. OG of 1046, cooled in about 20 mins in a very icey sink.

Re-hydrated yeast went well and it started to fire up in less than 1/2 day.


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## manticle (16/11/09)

Sounds like too much hops for your palate.

To get an understanding of amarillo, hunt up some commercial examples that use it.

Beechworth pale ale (also uses chinook as far as I can tell)
James Squire Golden Ale
Kooinda Pale - (they don't advertise their hops so this is my assumption only)


Yes you could do this recpie without extra hops , although it would be a different beer.

I've found amarillo can be quite bitter at the beginning (altough I wouldn't expect loads from a 15 minute addition) but it will round out nicely with a few weeks conditioning.


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## Nick JD (16/11/09)

Next time ditch the kit. It's just as easy to add your own bittering hops ... and they aren't hop extract either. 

My bet is it's nasty isohops. Someone splashed too much in or your can was from the bottom of the barrel. 

I had a Coopers kit a while back that tasted like it was btittered with btattery acid.


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## bum (16/11/09)

Nick JD said:


> My bet is it's nasty isohops.



Nah, I think that's the problem with mine. Sounds to me like it is just too hoppy for him. He added his dry hops at flameout and did the boil in a low gravity wort - this would make it much more bitter than DrS intended, yes?

The bitterness will round out over time. Does take a while though. I reckon if you can really sit on it (aka - next year) you'll think it is pretty great.


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## adumicic (16/11/09)

I recently made this too and thought it wasn't great early on and maybe a bit too bitter. However mine's around 7 weeks in the bottle now and is just lovely. I'm going to be doing a BIAB version of this soon as I like the kit version so much.


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## Nick JD (16/11/09)

bum said:


> Nah, I think that's the problem with mine. Sounds to me like it is just too hoppy for him. He added his dry hops at flameout and did the boil in a low gravity wort - this would make it much more bitter than DrS intended, yes?
> 
> The bitterness will round out over time. Does take a while though. I reckon if you can really sit on it (aka - next year) you'll think it is pretty great.



I think you're right, Bum - I thought for ages that kit beer tastes like kit beer because of the sugar. Now I think it's the isohops. Almost positive actually, because I made a "kit beer" about a month ago with 1.5kg of Coopers LME and 1kg of sucrose (but with a hop pellet boil up) ... and fcuk me it tastes great. Not a hint of "homebrew". 

Isohops are the devil's bitter :angry:


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## bum (16/11/09)

Yeah, kit twang is definitely not caused by sugar (may possibly be magnified by it, however). I've never used sugar in a kit (never even done an all dex kit) and I've only made one kit beer that I have been able to hide the twang in (and that was a 60-something IBU IPA in which I used 90g of Fuggles). The more I read about it the more I think it is a combination of isohops and 'less than ideal' malt make-up. 

Someone (not me) needs to do an AG isohop batch to test the theory.


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## Digger11 (16/11/09)

adumicic said:


> I recently made this too and thought it wasn't great early on and maybe a bit too bitter. However mine's around 7 weeks in the bottle now and is just lovely. I'm going to be doing a BIAB version of this soon as I like the kit version so much.


That was my plan too to go BIAB on thsi recipe. Looks like I'll wait another month for more aging in the bottles.

I do like manticles idea of trying some commercial beers made with Amarillo or similar hops - to see if this is the strong flavour coming through.


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## roverfj1200 (16/11/09)

Try a few hops along this line to work out your palate 

2 kg LDME
500g dex
100g dark crystal steeped 30 min
22g Amarillo @ 45
8g Amarillo @ 10
S-23 at 12deg

5 litre boil with steepings and 500g LDME

You could use more LDME and ditch the dex...

Just change hops and work to the same IBU's to find a hop that suites your palate.

cheers


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## barneyb (17/11/09)

What are isohops? I've tried searching google and this site but can't find any info on them. Are they the hops added to the kits?

I was planning a DrS GA soon and was contemplating whether to do the kit versions as above or the full extract version, replacing the Coopers Sparkling kit with a light LME and bittering 20g amarillo @ 60. Seeing as Coopers tend to use Pride of Ringwood hops wouldn't this create a different beer? Or does it not really matter what type of hop is used for bittering? 

Is it just a better idea to go full extract? 

Cheers


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## muckey (17/11/09)

barneyb said:


> What are isohops? I've tried searching google and this site but can't find any info on them. Are they the hops added to the kits?




have a look at the sponsor's lnks and that will give you some info (I beleive craftbrewer has them, unsure on the others)

(i cant give you a link as works internet access beleives its inappropriate :angry:


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## glaab (17/11/09)

I've made it with the kit and it was bloody marvellous!,,both with the Aust Bitter and the Real Ale, they are both fairly bitter. How did you do the boil?, what did you boil? Maybe you just don't like Amarillo?, do you like JSGA?


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## paulwolf350 (17/11/09)

I have made the kit version, a jull extract version and all grain version, The kit is slightly off compared to the others with regard to the bittering, I believe it is the POR used in the bittering, and the use of isohop in the kit, i wouldnt worry about it. 

It is still fantastic beer for kits and bits

EDIT: looking at you recipe further, I did 15min and 0 min amarillo into the boil, no dry hop. I would give it a few more weeks for the dry hop to settle down, it will be a cracker

EDIT 2: And if the Amarillo is still a bit much for your palate, change the hops to Glacier and it will be a great james Squire amber ale, I made this a few times too

Paul


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## MaestroMatt (17/11/09)

The last golden ale I made (pretty much same hop additions) had the same problem. I deduced in the end that it was a problem caused but oxygenation of the beer after it was fermented.

This gave the bitterness a much harsher hit that it would usually be - a little metalic taste though that was hidden beneath the bitterness.


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## barneyb (17/11/09)

Muckey said:


> have a look at the sponsor's lnks and that will give you some info (I beleive craftbrewer has them, unsure on the others)


Ah cheers, found it on the Grain and Grape one. 



paulwolf350 said:


> I have made the kit version, a jull extract version and all grain version, The kit is slightly off compared to the others with regard to the bittering, I believe it is the POR used in the bittering, and the use of isohop in the kit, i wouldnt worry about it.
> 
> It is still fantastic beer for kits and bits


This is exactly what I was looking for, looks like I'll be going full extract. I did my first extract last weekend for Neill's Centenillo and it is the first time a brew has smelt good while it is fermenting!

What boil quantities did you use? My pot can only hold ~ 5L water plus extract, should I boil 1/3 tin with it like I did for Neill's or should I use more? Maybe I should head down to big W and look at bigger pots...


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## hefevice (17/11/09)

barneyb said:


> What are isohops? I've tried searching google and this site but can't find any info on them.
> 
> [snip]



Isohops are hop extract (typically extracted from the hop cones using liquid C02) in which the bittering compounds (primarily alpha acids) have been chemically "isomerised" so they become soluable in water. In their natural form, alpha acids are not very soluable in water. This is one of the reasons that hops are boiled in the wort - the alpha acids are isomerised by the heat associated with the boil. As Isohops are soluable, they can be added after the boil (in some cases on the cold side prior to bottling).

Isomerising means re-arranging a molecule without changing its chemical formula. This process can change various chemical properties (such as colour, flavour and soluability).

Hope this makes sense.

Edit - speliling


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## Digger11 (17/11/09)

MaestroMatt said:


> The last golden ale I made (pretty much same hop additions) had the same problem. I deduced in the end that it was a problem caused but oxygenation of the beer after it was fermented.
> 
> This gave the bitterness a much harsher hit that it would usually be - a little metalic taste though that was hidden beneath the bitterness.


Hew Maestro - how would the beer become oxygenated post-fermentation ?


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## Digger11 (17/11/09)

paulwolf350 said:


> EDIT 2: And if the Amarillo is still a bit much for your palate, change the hops to Glacier and it will be a great james Squire amber ale, I made this a few times too
> 
> Paul



thanks Paul, I am thinking (as a few members have said) that maybe the Amarillo is a bit strong for me at the moment. I like the idea of trying a milder Hop.

I am storing the remaining 24 bottles at room temp. to speed up the aging - I assume this is better than in the fridge from an aging perspective ?


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## mwd (18/11/09)

I have brewed the self same kit with only 500g of wheat malt + 1kg light dried+ 250 medium crystal.
same hop schedule and it turned out quite bitter.
the Sparkling ale can is fairly hoppy to start with.

The beer was very good with some bottle time to knock off the harshness.
Found it to be more like a hoppy Amber than Golden.


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## barneyb (19/11/09)

hefevice said:


> Isohops are hop extract (typically extracted from the hop cones using liquid C02) in which the bittering compounds (primarily alpha acids) have been chemically "isomerised" so they become soluable in water. In their natural form, alpha acids are not very soluable in water. This is one of the reasons that hops are boiled in the wort - the alpha acids are isomerised by the heat associated with the boil. As Isohops are soluable, they can be added after the boil (in some cases on the cold side prior to bottling).
> 
> Isomerising means re-arranging a molecule without changing its chemical formula. This process can change various chemical properties (such as colour, flavour and soluability).
> 
> Hope this makes sense.


Awesome explanation, thanks for the detail.


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## adumicic (18/12/09)

One thing I did notice with this is that the kit version should work out to be about ~42 IBU's @ 20L, whilst the AG version is only ~31 IBU's. I assume that's a good deal more bitter, so is that possibly another reason some may find it a bit much?


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