# Souring w/ Lactobacillus Plantarum from Probiotic Pills



## mtb (9/10/17)

I'm planning some fairly "exotic" experiments with sour beers and the cost of Lactobacillus cultures from brewing suppliers is a bit prohibitive considering I assume I will bugger up every second batch with my experimentation.

I came across an article on the use of probiotic capsules for lactobacillus innoculation, such as this one;
http://www.alesoftheriverwards.com/2015/07/lactobacillus-plantarum-gose-sourcing.html
A similar discussion was had on AHB some time ago but it's not L. Plantarum so I didn't necro the thread. I also researched L. Plantarum on the White Labs website to confirm it is ideal for kettle souring.

So, I have a 30-capsule pack of Enliva, each capsule reported to contain "1.2Billion CFU of Lactobacillus Plantarum". Dr Google tells me CFU means Colony-Forming Units.. so 1.2B cells? Am I missing anything or could these be a viable alternative to the liquid lacto cultures one would buy for lots of dollarydoos?

ed: assuming a pitch rate of 1mil lacto cells/mL of wort, as per these guys, I'd add 8 capsules of Enliva for ~10B cells into 10L wort. Rough cost is then $1 per L of soured mash, which isn't as cheap as I'd hoped, but I could probably buy those Enliva caps in bulk to get them cheaper.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (9/10/17)

Lactos are really easy to grow in tomato juice broth so you could always use one pill and culture it up.

Recipe for 1 litre of TJB:

Filtered tomato juice......... 20ml
Yeast extract*................... 10g
Glucose............................ 10g
Potassium phosphate**.....1g
Magnesium sulphate........ 200mg
Sodium chloride............... 10mg
Iron(II) sulphate***..............10mg
Manganese(II) sulphate****10mg

Pressure cook for 15 mins, allow to cool, inoculate and culture at recommended temperature.

*You can substitute any yeast nutrient that doesn't contain DAP. Test for solubility first: if it isn't completely soluble it has yeast hulls in it, use twice as much, mix it in water, let it settle and use the dissolved portion.

** The phosphate is there as a buffer, you want a final pH of about 6.7. Easiest way of doing this is to add phophoric acid and titrate back to pH with potassium hydroxide or potassium carbonate.

***commonly found in iron supplements at the chemist or as a plant supplement at Bunnings.

**** available as a plant supplement at Bunnings.

BTW filtering tomato juice is a bunch of fun. I used to have to grow lots of lactics so I made up lots of TJB. One evening I'd just got the the end of a 5 litre filter run when the vacuum flask imploded, showering everything in the lab with tomato juice. 

We don't need nearly thatmuch, tomake up the amount of medium we need a standard lab syringe filter would be adequate.


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## mtb (9/10/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Lactos are really easy to grow in tomato juice broth so you could always use one pill and culture it up.


Intriguing LC. Would the juice contribute any significant flavours? I'd wash it as best I could after culturing, but I've heard particular yeast cells absorb flavour and carry it through to the final product.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (9/10/17)

At the end of the culture run, chill the medium and allow it to settle then pour off the excess. If you used 100 ml of culture it would contain 2 ml of tomato juice, you will get more flavour impact from the yeast extract.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (9/10/17)

Re TJB

If there's any interest on the forum I can make up a base mix that will contain everything except the tomato juice, yeast extract* glucose and phosphoric acid, all of which are easy to find. I'll work out potassium / phosphate balance that gives a decent pH with supermarket tomato juice. It will cost me about $50 to do this, I'm happy to pay part because I'll use some myself. Cost per participant is thus ($50 / number of participants) + postage.

* If people are having trouble with this I'll work out the soluble fraction in the stuff I have at work.

Participants:

1. Me
2.


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## shavey147 (9/10/17)

You could also try the Ethical Nutrients IBS pills. According to the pack they contain 20 Billion CFU of Lactobacillus Plantarum per tablet. Would only need 1 pill to double your intended pitch rate and should bring the cost per litre down a bit


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## earle (9/10/17)

There have been more recent that discuss using pure Lacto Plantarum strains.

https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/lactobacillus.89263/page-2
https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/berliner-weisse.66316/page-13

I have had success with kettle sours using Ethical Nutrients IBS Support. Its website quotes 20Billion live bacteria per capsule. http://ethicalnutrients.com.au/products/product/ibs
I use 5 capsules to sour a 23L batch so perhaps I am overpitching? Price should work out a lot better than $1/litre.


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## mtb (9/10/17)

Re TJB

If there's any interest on the forum I can make up a base mix that will contain everything except the tomato juice, yeast extract* and glucose, all of which are easy to find. I'll work out the phosphate that gives a decent pH with supermarket tomato juice. It will cost me about $50 to do this, I'm happy to pay part because I'll use some myself. Cost per participant is thus $50 / (number of participants) + postage.

* If people are having trouble with this I'll work out the soluble fraction in the stuff I have at work.

Participants:

1. LC
2. MTB
3.


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## mtb (9/10/17)

Much better value for money with those IBS pills, thanks guys!

Still keen to culture some with help from LC too, that looks like fun.. except exploding vacuum flasks


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## hirschb (9/10/17)

Yeah, just use IBS pills. Super easy. I'd use 4-5 pills in a 20l batch, or 2 pills in a 1l starter. 
These are two good resources on kettle souring:
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Wort_Souring
http://sourbeerblog.com/lactobacillus-2-0-advanced-techniques-for-fast-souring-beer/


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (9/10/17)

Interesting links but remember not to trust everything you read on the interwebs (including this post).

As an example, the recommendation in the "sour beer blog" of using DAP in a medium for LABs is compeletely wrong: they cannot assimilate inorganic nitrogen.


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## hirschb (9/10/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Interesting links but remember not to trust everything you read on the interwebs (including this post).
> 
> As an example, the recommendation in the "sour beer blog" of using DAP in a medium for LABs is compeletely wrong: they cannot assimilate inorganic nitrogen.



MTF has a dedicated subset of members with pretty extensive scientific backgrounds (I'm a bio lecturer myself), as well as professional brewers with loads of experience. While there is plenty of disagreement about some things, topics that are archived onto the wiki tend to be pretty reliable (and quickly edited when flaws are pointed out). 
Yeah, the Dr Lambic link wasn't 100% accurate, but otherwise still lots of good advice.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (9/10/17)

Might be time to point out a flaw then.

Anyone who works with LABs should know that they are very fussy about nitrogen requirements. It's actually been proposed as a diagnostic criterion for classification: if it's a gram positive rod that requires glutamate, valine and leucine it's a _Lactobacillus._


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## hoppyone (18/10/17)

If there's any interest on the forum I can make up a base mix that will contain everything except the tomato juice, yeast extract* and glucose, all of which are easy to find. I'll work out the phosphate that gives a decent pH with supermarket tomato juice. It will cost me about $50 to do this, I'm happy to pay part because I'll use some myself. Cost per participant is thus $50 / (number of participants) + postage.

* If people are having trouble with this I'll work out the soluble fraction in the stuff I have at work.

Participants:

1. LC
2. MTB
3.hoppyone


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## huez (24/12/17)

Lallemand have released a dried Lactobacillus Plantarum. I'd assume it will be cheaper than buying the IBS capsules. Doesn't seem to be available in australia anywhere yet but i might email around and see if anyone is getting it in.

http://www.lallemandbrewing.com/product-details/wildbrew-sour-pitch/


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## mtb (24/12/17)

huez said:


> Lallemand have released a dried Lactobacillus Plantarum. I'd assume it will be cheaper than buying the IBS capsules. Doesn't seem to be available in australia anywhere yet but i might email around and see if anyone is getting it in.
> 
> http://www.lallemandbrewing.com/product-details/wildbrew-sour-pitch/


IBS capsules are about a dollar's worth per 20L, that's hard to beat. I'd say Lallemand would be targeting those who currently use the liquid culture packets at $30ea instead, for them, $15 to inoculate a batch is a huge saving.


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## huez (24/12/17)

True, but at least this is produced for the brewing industry. I've had mixed results with the IBS capsules, never made anything fantastic. Have made some great beers with the yeast bay and wyeast strains, but yeah pretty bloody expensive.


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## JayP (16/7/18)

any updates to this thread ? is Sour Pitch available down under ?


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## GoodDuck (16/7/18)

Ha! Timing...
This was just linked to on BeerCo's thread...
https://beerco.com.au/products/lallemand-wildbrew-sour-pitch-lactobacillus-plantarum

https://aussiehomebrewer.com/thread...action-news-updates.90415/page-2#post-1513941

I haven't used it, so I have no opinion on it, whatsoever.


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## Chris Gillott (24/7/18)

If there's any interest on the forum I can make up a base mix that will contain everything except the tomato juice, yeast extract* and glucose, all of which are easy to find. I'll work out the phosphate that gives a decent pH with supermarket tomato juice. It will cost me about $50 to do this, I'm happy to pay part because I'll use some myself. Cost per participant is thus $50 / (number of participants) + postage.

* If people are having trouble with this I'll work out the soluble fraction in the stuff I have at work.

Participants:

1. LC
2. MTB
3.hoppyone
4. Chris Gillott


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