# Sparkling Wine



## box1964 (24/8/11)

Hi all, Im new here and i dont know if i posted in the right forum so if you can please be patient as a little guidance will be gratefully appreciated.

I want to make sparkling wine. I have the chardonay .will carbonating the wine be the go, and what difference is required between wine and beer carbonation times and pressure if it works.

PLEASE BE GENTLE as im NEW


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## Kieren (24/8/11)

Hi Peter,

I don't think there are too many wine makers on this forum. Mainly beer here.

Are you carbonating the wine in the bottle or in a pressurized vessel before filling the bottles? Sparkling wine is generally carbed at a higher pressure. You may fare better on a wine makers forum.

Kieren


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## manticle (24/8/11)

There is a non beer brewing section and there are some amateur and professional winemakers here so you may get a decent answer to your query.


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## Muggus (24/8/11)

This probably belongs in the "Non-Beer Brewing" section, but meh...

This chardonnay you have, is it a finished wine? And if so, do you know how much free SO2, residual sugar, alcohol, etc....important factors.

If you want to go proper Methode Champenoise, you'll need to build a good healthy starter of a Champagne yeast, like EC-1118, and slow get it acclimatised to the alcohol, pH, whatever, that is the wine itself.
You'll also need to add sugar. Assuming it's bone dry, no residual sugar, around about 24g/L sugar will give you about 6 atmosphere of pressure, that is typical of most Champagne bottles.
You'll have to have a homogenised mixture when bottling to ensure equal amounts of yeast are distributed into each bottle...so the mixture should be continually aggetated whilst bottling.

Once the bottlings done, it'll need a few months in bottle, on its side en tirage. 
And some point down the track (15 months, lets say), need to be riddled, disgorged, and topped with a liqueur d'expedition...that's if you wanna go proper Champagne style


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## box1964 (24/8/11)

Hi all, Im new here and i dont know if i posted in the right forum so if you can please be patient as a little guidance will be gratefully appreciated.

I want to make sparkling wine. I have the chardonay .will carbonating the wine be the go, and what difference is required between wine and beer carbonation times and pressure if it works.

PLEASE BE GENTLE as im NEW


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## box1964 (24/8/11)

thanks ill go to the non brewing section


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## Silo Ted (24/8/11)

Hi and welcome. How serious do you want to get ? Are you looking to just make some sparkling wine to save a few bob, or do you plan on dedicating hundred of hours and thousands of dollars into the obby ? 

At a crude level, you could add some sugar to your chardonnary, put it in a plastic bottle, add yeast, and cap it with the Oz-Tops system. 

http://www.oztops.com.au/

Tell us more on what you envision your setup to be. Im interested in reading some of the responses myself.


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## box1964 (24/8/11)

Silo Ted said:


> Hi and welcome. How serious do you want to get ? Are you looking to just make some sparkling wine to save a few bob, or do you plan on dedicating hundred of hours and thousands of dollars into the obby ?
> 
> At a crude level, you could add some sugar to your chardonnary, put it in a plastic bottle, add yeast, and cap it with the Oz-Tops system.
> 
> ...



im just started. My partner and i love a good chardonnay sparkling . I thought by purchasing a brew fridge and carbonatting our favourites to be on tap that would be the go.Im not to familiar with it as ive also asked several brew shops that say they dont know how it would go?

Really im lost but am willing to learn.


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## Silo Ted (24/8/11)

peterboh said:


> im just started. My partner and i love a good chardonnay sparkling . I thought by purchasing a brew fridge and carbonatting our favourites to be on tap that would be the go.Im not to familiar with it as ive also asked several brew shops that say they dont know how it would go?
> 
> Really im lost but am willing to learn.



I would think that the cleanest and most reliable way to keep a regular supply of sparkling wine running at your place would be to buy a 19L corny keg and a gas bottle, and be able to control the carbonation to your liking. It would help if you could buy your wine in bulk too, I'm sure it would be dirt cheap if you could buy 100L at a time, and way better for the environment than 'by the bottle' if you're running your own champers tap.

On a smaller scale, you could scour the shops for a cheap sodastream device and give that a go. 
http://www.winewithoutbs.com.au/wine_witho...g-red-wine.html


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## drsmurto (24/8/11)

Funnily enough i also have some chardonnay on the go, still going through MLF but seriously thinking about taking the unwooded portion (15L) and kegging it.

I keep sparkling mineral water on tap and have that gassed up to 20psi (@6C) so was planning on starting at that level and seeing how i go. 

So my plan is to keg the chardonnay and then force carb by shaking the keg whilst at 50psi for 2 mins. Wait an hour, vent and then pour at normal pouring pressure. When not pouring gas it back up to 20 psi to maintain the carbonation.


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## ChrisECarpenter (24/8/11)

peterboh said:


> im just started. My partner and i love a good chardonnay sparkling . I thought by purchasing a brew fridge and carbonatting our favourites to be on tap that would be the go.Im not to familiar with it as ive also asked several brew shops that say they dont know how it would go?
> 
> Really im lost but am willing to learn.



Can you post the favourite sparkling so we have an idea if you're wanting to replicate aged Champagne or sub-$10 sparkling white?

A huge part of the style of good champagne is the yeast autolysis character which is the bready/briochy/yeasty character that comes from long term ageing on yeast solids from the ferment in bottle (like >2 years, 5 years is more like it).

If you just like chardonnay and want it to be fizzy, then you could just carbonate it in keg and serve out of a tap.
From experience, you'll need about 100kpa at 3 degrees to give you equivalent carbonation. You'll also need a lot of line and a flow reducing tap to not just pour a glass of froth - its a lot harder to balance a setup like that than conventional ale dispensing.

If you want a fancy champagne style on tap, I would suggest you're going to spend a lot more on replicating the style than just looking at greys-online and picking up something at auction, or even buying it at a big chain like 1st choice.

If you reallllly want to make a champagne, you'll need to start with much lower alc and higher acid than still chardonnay (you want about 10.5% Alc/Vol to start), so you'll need to buy a very light unoaked style.
You'll need to make sure it has no free So2 - the easiest way to do this is to soak it up with an active yeast culture (otherwise you've got to add an exact amount of Hydrogen Peroxide etc etc).
So make up a huge yeast culture with something strong - EC-1118 is okay but you can get better - DV-10 is good, UV-43 is better.
Add 1/2 to your base wine, add 5g/l of sugar, leave it 24 hours.
Then add the rest of the yeast, a further 20g/L sugar, bottle or keg it off.

Then ignore the wine for 2-4 years.
Filter from keg, or disgorge from bottle (shake solids into the neck of the bottle, leave neck in an ice bath to freeze the solids, invert, remove the top and then re-cap after topping up).

If you're going to bottle, you need champagne bottles - these can deal with the 6 atmospheres of pressure required.

Happy to answer any more questions (I'm a winemaker and make a lot of sparklings).
Chris


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## Silo Ted (24/8/11)

DrSmurto said:


> Funnily enough i also have some chardonnay on the go, still going through MLF



I read that as "Still going through MILF" :icon_chickcheers:


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## box1964 (28/8/11)

basically want to carbonate in a 19 L keg if possible


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## drsmurto (28/8/11)

peterboh said:


> basically want to carbonate in a 19 L keg if possible



Kegs will easily handle the pressure required to carbonate wine to produce a sparkling wine.

I plan on aiming for 3.5 - 4 volumes of CO2 so at 4decC i need to set the regulator to 155 - 193 kPa (22.5 - 28 psi) or add 77 - 96g of dextrose to the keg. 

I'll probably go the dex route and leave it sit on the yeast lees for 6-12 months.


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## box1964 (6/9/11)

DrSmurto said:


> Kegs will easily handle the pressure required to carbonate wine to produce a sparkling wine.
> 
> I plan on aiming for 3.5 - 4 volumes of CO2 so at 4decC i need to set the regulator to 155 - 193 kPa (22.5 - 28 psi) or add 77 - 96g of dextrose to the keg.
> 
> I'll probably go the dex route and leave it sit on the yeast lees for 6-12 months.




What am i doing wrong????
19l keg 200kpa co2 for 2days with chardonay .
30kpa to dispense

Comes out fizzy from the tap with lots of sparkling bubbles then dies a grim death to be flat!!!!!!

WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY


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## Airgead (6/9/11)

peterboh said:


> Comes out fizzy from the tap with lots of sparkling bubbles then dies a grim death to be flat!!!!!!



There's the problem...

Losing too much fizz in the pour. You might need a longer line...

Cheers
Dave


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## kirem (6/9/11)

peterboh said:


> What am i doing wrong????
> 19l keg 200kpa co2 for 2days with chardonay .
> 30kpa to dispense
> 
> ...



lack of protein. Was the chardonnay made for still wine or bubbles?


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## box1964 (6/9/11)

kirem said:


> lack of protein. Was the chardonnay made for still wine or bubbles?



not sure, bulk buy of wine in 10litre lots


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## kirem (6/9/11)

peterboh said:


> not sure, bulk buy of wine in 10litre lots



As mentioned by Dave, the dispensing line length and 'balancing' your system for the pressures you are dealing with will go a long way. there a lot of calculators on the web that will help you with that. A quick search found this; http://www.angelfire.com/ks2/beer/homekeg.html

The mousse associated with bubbles has a lot to do with the protein level. Typically a still wine is bento fined to make it heat stable - removes proteins that cause haze if exposed to heat. These same proteins are of benefit in a sparkling wine as they help retain the mousse.

I'd say you can't easily do much about the protein level and by balancing the dispensing system, you should be able to get carbonated chardonnay, don't expect it to be much more than just that.

There are additives available that can help mimic the time on lees, like biolees, but they are long way from the complete package.


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## drsmurto (6/9/11)

peterboh said:


> What am i doing wrong????
> 19l keg 200kpa co2 for 2days with chardonay .
> 30kpa to dispense
> 
> ...



Unless you are shaking it then 2 days is unlikley enough time for the carbonation to increase to 'sparkling' wine levels. What temperature is the wine at?

I doubt the line length will have much of an impact as the lack of protein in wine (a general comment, not 100% true) means wine doesnt hold a head. So pouring at high pressurer with a short line is fine. I do so with sparkling mineral water.


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## box1964 (6/9/11)

DrSmurto said:


> Unless you are shaking it then 2 days is unlikley enough time for the carbonation to increase to 'sparkling' wine levels. What temperature is the wine at?
> 
> I doubt the line length will have much of an impact as the lack of protein in wine (a general comment, not 100% true) means wine doesnt hold a head. So pouring at high pressurer with a short line is fine. I do so with sparkling mineral water.




temp is 2 degrees


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## drsmurto (6/9/11)

peterboh said:


> temp is 2 degrees



Leave it connected at 200kPa for a week and then see what the carbonation is like.

Other way as i mentioned before would be to shake it at that pressure for a few mins. Your pouring pressure is very low. Why? You could easily pour wine at 100kPa.


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## box1964 (7/9/11)

ive experimented today .lengthend the line to 3m.no good,decreased size of line to 3/16 id same again.5/32 still the same

as it dispensors heaps of foam then bubbles of to a flat wine.

dispense at 100/or 50kpa still no go.

seems to bubble up in the lines as if the wine cant absorb the co2.

If i pressurise keg at 300kpa and release pressure out of keg the boil of of the co2 occurs and pushes foam out of the pressure release on the keg.

Advised to pressurise at 500kpa and shake and roll keg for 10 mins.
NO BLOODY GOOD

what am i doing wrong????????????????????


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## Airgead (7/9/11)

peterboh said:


> ive experimented today .lengthend the line to 3m.no good,decreased size of line to 3/16 id same again.5/32 still the same
> 
> as it dispensors heaps of foam then bubbles of to a flat wine.
> 
> ...



The wine will never hold a head like beer due to the low protein levels but it should still be fizzy like soda water.

That really sounds like a system balancing problem. Especially if its foaming in the lines like that. The thing with balancing systems is that you need to let things stabilise after making changes. Make one change, let things settle for a few hours (or days if you are mucking around with keg pressures) then give it a try. Changing the lines shouldn't need time to settle but changing the keg pressures will. Things need time to equalise.

I'm not a keg balancing expert but I'm sure someone here could give some specifics. There's also a good article here - http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/arti...dvanced-brewing

Cheers
Dave


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## drsmurto (7/9/11)

I assume that when you say 'flat wine' you mean it has no bubbles and has no fizz on the tongue. Wine will always look flat but i suspect you know that already.

Not sure what you are doing then although as Airgead points out, this takes time. You wont stabilise it in a few hours if you are using high pressures.

As stated previoulsy i pour sparkling water at 20psi (~145 kPa) and yes, it fizzes during the pour much like sparkling wine does when you pour.

But the water is still fizzy once it settles down after 2-3 seconds.

So my suggestion at this point is to vent the gas and leave it disconnected.

Walk away and don't touch anything for at least 24 hours.

After at least 24 hours vent the keg again and then hook up the gas and pour at 50kPa or thereabouts. 

Let us know the result.

I highly doubt you have overcarbed your wine, i don't think you could using a standard CO2 regulator you buy for homebrew use. But you may have it carbonated up to a pressure that your line length can't handle.

Have you used the 'balancing a draught system' spreadsheet you find here to work out your required line length? Link


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## box1964 (7/9/11)

will try and let you know tomorrow :mellow:


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## kirem (8/9/11)

some bed time reading.

View attachment 48177


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## box1964 (8/9/11)

would a cabonation stone help???


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## box1964 (8/9/11)

24 hrs later and wine will not hold the bubbles......

Thanks to all for the help,that is some heavy reading *kirem*.also *DrSmurto* and *Airgead*,




*Silo Ted*,*ChrisECarpenter*,*Muggus*.sorry if i forgot someone...

would a carbonation stone help????? as ive been reading on other sites it is a possible go for carbonation of wine.
please dont tell me the youtube forums on the soda stream is the go for carbonating wine (chardonay)??????


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## Airgead (9/9/11)

peterboh said:


> 24 hrs later and wine will not hold the bubbles......
> 
> would a carbonation stone help????? as ive been reading on other sites it is a possible go for carbonation of wine.
> please dont tell me the youtube forums on the soda stream is the go for carbonating wine (chardonay)??????



IOt will never hold bubbloes liek a beer but should still be carbonated (like soda water).

A carbonation stone will help get co2 dissolved into the liquid faster. Essentially you can carb up a keg with one much faster than just putting it under pressure and waiting for it to dissolve in through the headspace. If you problem is lack of carbonation in the wine then yes it will help (but so will waiting a few days). I'm not sure thats your problem though. Hard to say without being there (and as I said, I'm no keg guru) but it sounds like your problem is that all the dissolved co2 is coming out of solution during the pour. To me, that sounds like a system balancing issue.

Cheers
Dave


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## box1964 (9/9/11)

oh no, picked up my first batch of beer from the beer shed in kegs and having the same issue when dispensin the beer as the wine.

All head and foam.flushed lines etc still the same .30-50kpa dispense.
So i tried it straight out of the keg with vinyl line to glass,80 % improvement.tried the wine also and got a better improvement.

Not excessivelly foaming and losing the bubbles...without the taps.

Rung the beer shed and asked them why and what is the difference in the taps.They couldnt answer except to keep playing around with the pressures but still no good.

What is the issue?????????????

Man all these trials without wastage is getting me pithed before the mrs gets home


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## Airgead (9/9/11)

peterboh said:


> oh no, picked up my first batch of beer from the beer shed in kegs and having the same issue when dispensin the beer as the wine.
> 
> All head and foam.flushed lines etc still the same .30-50kpa dispense.
> So i tried it straight out of the keg with vinyl line to glass,80 % improvement.tried the wine also and got a better improvement.
> ...



What sort of taps? They don't have flow restictors in them do they?

What pressure were the kegs carbonated at again? 30kpa and 2C will give you about 2 volumes of co2. If the kegs were carbonated beyond that it will all be trying to come out of solution until it equalises at 2 volumes. To run a balanced system you should set your pressure the same for both carbonation and dispensing (so for 4 volumes at 2c you want 170kpa). You don't want the beer coming out of the tap that fast though so you set the line resistance to be equal to the keg pressure minus your pouring pressure (pouring pressure is usually 1psi or 6.5kpa) so the line resistance should be 170-6.5 or 163.5kpa. According to the tables that's about 2.6m of 3/16 line (or 63m of 3/8, 41m of 5/16, 10m of 1/4...).

If you pour at a lower pressure than your carbonation pressure you will have gas coming out of solution into the headspace and particularly in the lines as the turbulence will help the gas come out. This will happen until enough gas has come out for the system to reach equilibrium (in this case at 2 volumes).

I'd be setting your regulator to whatever the correct pressure is for the level of carbonation you want then adjusting the line length (or tap flow restrictor) to get a good pour. But you will need to leave the system alone for a while to equalise when mucking around with the pressures. Set the reg. Vent the kegs a few times to help any excess gas come out and leave it alone for at least 24 hours.

Cheers
Dave


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## box1964 (9/9/11)

I was told by the beershed to set co2 at 38kpa,there doesnt to be any restricters in the tap.

10mm line at 1.5m

standard kegerator taps https://shop.thebeershed.com.au/beer-fridges?product_id=88
2 degrees temp


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## Airgead (9/9/11)

peterboh said:


> I was told by the beershed to set co2 at 38kpa,there doesnt to be any restricters in the tap.
> 
> 5/16 ID line at 1.5m
> 
> ...



38kpa is about 2 volumes at normal serving temps which is pretty standard for a beer. Its a pretty safe, middle of the road carbonation level.

Your wine keg was at 4 volumes so there are 2 volumes trying to come out of solution. That's part of the problem.

Even at 38kpa, using 5/16 line, the calculator says you want 5.3m to drop the pressure to a nice 6.5kpa for pouring. With a 1.5m line you will be pushing the beer too fast through the line, too fast through the tap and and too fast into the glass which is knocking all the gas out and causing your foam issues.

If you change the line size to 1/4 inch id your 1.5m should be about right. Or use a longer 5/16 line.

Grab the calculator spreadsheet that was posted a few posts back. That's what I use. Its absolutely spot on.

Cheers
Dave


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## box1964 (9/9/11)

Airgead said:


> 38kpa is about 2 volumes at normal serving temps which is pretty standard for a beer. Its a pretty safe, middle of the road carbonation level.
> 
> Your wine keg was at 4 volumes so there are 2 volumes trying to come out of solution. That's part of the problem.
> 
> ...




sorry its 6x10 mm line


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## box1964 (10/9/11)

ok running 38kpa 1/4 id line at 1.5m 2degrees.

wine and beer foam out of tap??????

changed pressures up or down 10-20 kpa and no different


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## Airgead (11/9/11)

peterboh said:


> ok running 38kpa 1/4 id line at 1.5m 2degrees.
> 
> wine and beer foam out of tap??????
> 
> changed pressures up or down 10-20 kpa and no different



Not sure.. other than leaving it longer to settle when mucking about with the pressures.

Could be a problem in the tap I suppose. I just have those picnic taps myself (until I can build my bar) so I have no idea whether there is a tap problem that could cause foaming.

Whatever your problem is, it is contagious... my kegs poured very foamy last night. No idea why. Been working perfectly for 2 years now. I'm blaming you though :lol: 

Cheers
Dave


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## box1964 (12/9/11)

Airgead said:


> Not sure.. other than leaving it longer to settle when mucking about with the pressures.
> 
> Could be a problem in the tap I suppose. I just have those picnic taps myself (until I can build my bar) so I have no idea whether there is a tap problem that could cause foaming.
> 
> ...



Sorry Airgead

Now can i throw a spanner in the works.

lenghtened line from 1.5m to 3m and decreased from 1/4 to 3/16 ,also increased pressure to 45kpa.

A hell of alot better so far on beer 80% better.will try wine tomorrow.

Used the calcs link for determining the lenth but it wanted only 0.8m which gave me a poor result in overfoaming.

Also what would be the specific gravity of the beer be,could this be an issue???


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## Airgead (13/9/11)

I suppose the Fg of the beer could have an impact but thats beyond my experience. My guess is that there is some resistance in your taps (or maybe lack of resistance) that isn't being included int he spreasheet. Apparently most taps have a resistance of 1psi (.5 for a picnic tap) but yours may be different.

I fixed my system. Damn cat had been rubbing against the gas botle and had managed to knock the locking ring loose on the regulator and bump the adjustment knob. Gas pressure was about twice where it sghould have been set.

Cheers
Dave


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## box1964 (14/9/11)

hey got a pluto gun and the sparkling wine dispensing is just about perfect at 38kpa as long as i leave the gun in the fridge and have a chilled glass.

Very little boil of of co2 bubbly.

My Mrs was impressed.(big night for me )
I can now see how temp,lines pressures are so variable to a flow of bubbly.

Now to my beer its all head and no beer at 20-100kpa with 3m of 3/16 line at 2 degrees. This sucks as i have nil to drink now ....

Finding that the beer is frothing in the line since swithching kegs???????????????????????

why....................

Got it right at 3/16 with 3m and 2 degrees.regardless of pressure of 20-100kpa??????

what has changed since changing the keg out of the same batch?????


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