# Just how DO you get that juicy IPA taste and aroma?



## Doctormcbrewdle

Seriously. I've tried flameout hops of around 150gms and 200gms dry hopping with fresh pellet hops and just never end up with a great microbrew commercial quality product. Why is this?


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## manticle

Sulphate levels and post fermentation oxygen exposure are 2 likely candidates


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Cheers Manticle. Just a little background. Im going to 300ppm sulphate (which is 12gms gypsum for me) and stilll it's not happening . Though, I've also done around 8gms and had seemingly better results.. is it possible my water report is inaccurate and I'm massively overdoing the salts? I do 3gms chloride normally also, which is a 'perfect' pale ale match in Bru n water with my water report (Darwin)


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## manticle

I'm not a massive fan of stupidly hop forward beers but 300 ppm seems much too high to me. I'd aim for 150 - 200 max and that's presuming mash pH is taken care of.

Next - reduce oxygen exposure during conditioning and packaging.

Obviously hop type and freshness will also impact.

Try dry hopping in stages, dry hop warm, dry hop cold, first wort hop, split late hopping into small hop doses every 3-5 mins from 20 to 0, try chilling if you are no chilling, bump up whirlpool additions, cube hop if cubing.

Lots of tricks, play around.


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## malt junkie

As mant's says hops in different places give differing affects, trying differing whirlpool addition temps, hop back to chill, dry hopping at different ferment temps stages; all change the out come. No one can tell you exactly how your brew system will work with any advice they give however the basics are pretty much the same but never to the letter. You may need water adjustments to push those flavours your chasing. The best person to figure that out is you and those local to you, check what the guys at your local brew club are doing, try their IPAs and get the down low on the ones you like.


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## TheSumOfAllBeers

It's very hard to achieve, go with less hops used better next time round. And be ruthless about O2 pickup: aromatic hop oils are especially vulnerable.

From my last experiment with cube hopping, I am going to try it again. Cube hopping a Saison with motueka brought it right into a good base IPA hop profile 

What would happen if I tried that with something like mosaic or citra? Cube hops go a long way too - you don't need a lot


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## Gloveski

I was suprised with a single hop Galaxy dry hoping warm for 2 days and then cold for 2 days how different it was , was pressure fermented aswell so no oxygen issues , but chalk and cheese from whatI have done before.
Must add also first brew looking at salt additions so that might have had a bit to do with it also


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Well funnily enough I've ordered 1kg of Galaxy! But seeming I've tried most of the incredulous amazing Americano hops 'we'll see' it all still cones down to something I'm missing at asmall home brewer level


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## ein stein

Kegging or bottling? I couldn't get the hoppyness I was craving in my beers until I started kegging. Pretty sure it is to do with oxygenation during bottling process.


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## TheSumOfAllBeers

Ein stein: I bottle & bottle condition and I struggle in this regard too. Will need to purge or otherwise minimise O2 pickup. The yeast is sufficient to stop beer oxidation, but not enough to preserve the hops I think


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## Garfield

My juiciest IPA was achieved with galaxy:

85% pale
10% rye
5% rolled oats

Hops:
None during boil 
1g/L flameout with whirlpool 
1g/L at high krausen for 3 days
1g/L late ferment for 3 days
1g/L post ferment for 3 days

Juicey as hell! Loads of passion fruit flavour 

Hope that helps


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## SeeFar

None during boil?

Did you still get much bitterness from the hop sched you used?


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Bottling


ein stein said:


> Kegging or bottling? I couldn't get the hoppyness I was craving in my beers until I started kegging. Pretty sure it is to do with oxygenation during bottling process.


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## Dan Pratt

when your saying juicy, that makes me think of NEIPA style which is the polar opposite of typical ways to make an IPA. 

They are using 200ppm of Cholride and only 50-70ppm of sulphate, basically swapping the 2 around, pushing high chlorides. 

You want to chase a heap of late hops, eg 5min or less, flameout, WP @ less than 80c, WP @` less than 60c, dry hop day 1 of fermentation and again dry hop day 4 of fermentation. 

Use really fruity hops like Galaxy, Citra, Mosaic, Simcoe, Amarillo etc etc.

Whilst bottling though your O2 pickup will be off the charts and basically wrecking your hops oil stability and they would break down quite fast. 

Google, closed system brewing and dissolved oxygen and you will see it takes alot of equipment and effort to get the best out of your hops.


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## Doctormcbrewdle

I think it's in the bottling then by sounds of it. How the hell are the commercial guys getting theirs into bottles without degredation?

There are some of the big guys who make them just as me, without much distinguishable character but others are just like sniffing a freshly opened bag of hops


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## droid

I've canned and bottled at two micros - both have already had the beer carbed and hopped in tanks. The bottles/cans are purged with co2 then filled and capped (possibly with a little injection of c02 to top it off - can't remember) on a foamy head.

I met a guy the other day who used to work at Gage Roads in the early years, he said they worked out that a shot of hot water (not sure of temp and amount) was used just before capping the bottles...but again this is carbed beer going into bottles not uncarbed and sugar

sorry - prolly not that helpful but maybe an insight into at least a couple of micros and how they go about it


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Hmm. I'll try that little shot of hot, just to see if it makes any difference on my level. Thanks man


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## Doctormcbrewdle

What does the co2 purge do, and is it worthwhile me trying?

Also, how does transferring to a keg rather than bottle differ in exposure to oxygen? I would think it's just as high


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## droid

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Hmm. I'll try that little shot of hot, just to see if it makes any difference on my level. Thanks man



It may have been a squirt of steam and it was trial and error but they worked it out ... and it was carbed beer, if yours is uncarbed I can't see how it would help, it was more about answering your question about how do some micros do things. The squirt caused foaming and they would cap at that time it was foaming out of the bottle.

At least some canning/bottling lines have a length of rod that goes right down to the bottom of the can or near the bottom and a quick blast of c02 goes direct to the base - The beer is then filled under the blanket of c02 (if you believe that a blanket exists) If you went to kegging you can closely mirror the commercial set-up with a few doo-dads. I could be wrong, this is my understanding of things and how I do it, albeit with a beer gun.

Good luck, hopefully a bottle conditioned bottler that makes super hoppy beers will help - if they haven't already lol


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## Doctormcbrewdle

I think the only help with bottling I've received is people saying it can't be done.. not sure it can be done for home brewers???


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Then there's this: from a highly respected contributor on another forum. I haven't been leaving the caps loose, which may be a problem.. will definitely give this a go!

Here's a link to his bottling vs kegging thread 
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/bottling-tips-for-the-homebrewer.94812/


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## droid

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> I think the only help with bottling I've received is people saying it can't be done.. not sure it can be done for home brewers???



There is a guy in Germany who makes a beer with 12g/l of hops. Someone said to him, you know you can make the same beer with 7g/l and his reply? If you think you can make it with 7g/l you go and make it.

Maybe just use more hops, do a five day @20C dry-hop at 5g/l then chill before transferring to cold bottles, filling from the base of the bottle?


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Then this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/purging-bottles-with-co2.211820/ where someone experiments with purging the head space of o2. The result describes my, non purged pale ales and IPA's. There's even a big difference in oxidation/plysical colour compared to those that weren't purged


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## Doctormcbrewdle

While I love the idea of this, I've tried and it doesn't work. I've used half a kg of flameout type juicy hops. Same story as when I use 70gms unfortunately



droid said:


> There is a guy in Germany who makes a beer with 12g/l of hops. Someone said to him, you know you can make the same beer with 7g/l and his reply? If you think you can make it with 7g/l you go and make it.
> 
> Maybe just use more hops, do a five day @20C dry-hop at 5g/l then chill before transferring to cold bottles, filling from the base of the bottle?


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## Danscraftbeer

No immediate fix but pressure fermenting, no exposure of oxygen at all gets the goods, at least with loaded up late additions.
I do a small IBU level First Wort Hop, Flame out additions and Hop Stand. Chill to 70c for the largest hop additions like last brew I used 7.5g per litre whirled well and let sit at 70c for 30 minutes. Chill down, transfer to kegmenter, pitch etc. Never open the kegmenter. Dry hopping itself can introduce oxygen counteracting the effort. c02 pressure transfers to serving kegs. Serving kegs purged by filling completely with sanitiser then co2 forced out all the sanitiser purges the keg of all oxygen before transfer.


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## dibbz

I've had good success using this recipe as a guide. Only used vermont but my bugs are starting to give really low attenuation so I might get some 1316 for next time.

https://beerandbrewing.com/weldwerks-brewing-co-juicy-bits-new-england-style-ipa/

I usually start the hop stands between 99c and 95c with similar results. Some people wait longer, I'm still at about 80c after 40 mins of hop stand.

Toffee malt as the dextrin is nice and goes well with the juicy flavor, I just did melba/ella/topaz which is a bit tropical punchy. I think the AU higher AA hops are difficult to manage, but I probably put too much in also.


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Where can I look for and what do I actually need to purge? I'm willing to try this out for myself

Way I'd do it, is: There is no oxygen in a finished fermenting, well sealed fermenter filled with beer ready to bottle, so no problem at this point. From here, I'd purge the bottling bucket and wand, then transfer in with carb sucrose already inside the bucket. Then, when bottling I'd purge either each bottle and then headpace once the bottling wand is removed to reveal the space which is now filled once again with pure oxygen to remove this as best as possible before quickly capping

How's this sound, and where do I find this stuff?! Is it just a gas bottle with on/off regulator?


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## wide eyed and legless

Peter Wolfes thesis on hop flavours will explain a lot if you google it. Here is an extract off Braukaiser's extract of the findings.

*1.6.1 Packaging and its potential ability to scalp dry-hop flavor:* “The hydrophobic nature of hop aroma compounds makes them vulnerable to adsorption and absorption by hydrophobic polymers”. The most common occurrence of this is in cap liners. The extent depends on the type of polymer. In one study mycrene and humulene were found to have completely migrated into the cap liners of examined retail beers._ This is an interesting aspect to those of us who bottle beers and don’t pay much attention to the type of bottle cap we are using._
_
Here is the rest of the blog
http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2012/12/12/interesting-paper-on-dry-hopping/_


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## Doctormcbrewdle

I wonder if this is actually true about the liner? I'd imagine it's actually oxygen instead but, I just don't know for sure yet


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## Danscraftbeer

That headspace in the bottle is a debate in itself. General thought is the bit of oxygen gets eaten in the bottle ferment and the yeast may need that little bit of O2 to ferment properly in the bottle etc.
I only (Draught) bottle from the keg now and that headspace would be the only exposure to O2 but its not enough to spoil the beer in any way I have found even when stored for months.
Edit: Considering (Draught) the beer is carbonated so when you remove the carb cap with dip tube after filling the bottle the Co2 releasing from the beer may be enough to purge that headspace by the time you get the cap on.


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## wide eyed and legless

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> I wonder if this is actually true about the liner? I'd imagine it's actually oxygen instead but, I just don't know for sure yet


Well he's no mug got a bachelors degree and a masters degree. Check out his whole thesis.


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Just found the 'Blichmann beer gun' seems like what I need


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## Doctormcbrewdle

I'm not implying he is. And I do remember personally pulling out Coke cap plugs and chewing on them as a kid. They're very tasty! So maybe something to it.

Though, just looking at my caps and the really incredibly tasty IPA I had last night that caused me to create this thread, they're the same as all the others I have in the drawer. Funny thing is, the IPA one actually still smells fantastic! So it indeed has taken in something. Though obviously this did not affect my perception of the bottled product because I'm attempting to emulate this



wide eyed and legless said:


> Well he's no mug got a bachelors degree and a masters degree. Check out his whole thesis.


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Ok, in thinking more about this, I'm going to try this route first before paying money for a wand and to rent gas cylinders. I'll update over time with the results

1. Cut back my sulphate to half of what I'm using now (which will probably help with the mash also. I don't have a ph meter and 12g sulphate may be killing this too) As I've tasted in the past, zero sulphate is 'meh' 8gms is pretty good. 12gms is never good

2. Transfer to bottling bucket much more carefully and slowly, with the tube BELOW the surface rather than above 

3. Test a few beers with the cap straight on vs allowing them to sit loosely in top for half an hour or so. This should tell me alot before doing anything else

Thanks Manticle





manticle said:


> I'm not a massive fan of stupidly hop forward beers but 300 ppm seems much too high to me. I'd aim for 150 - 200 max and that's presuming mash pH is taken care of.
> 
> Next - reduce oxygen exposure during conditioning and packaging.
> 
> Obviously hop type and freshness will also impact.
> 
> Try dry hopping in stages, dry hop warm, dry hop cold, first wort hop, split late hopping into small hop doses every 3-5 mins from 20 to 0, try chilling if you are no chilling, bump up whirlpool additions, cube hop if cubing.
> 
> Lots of tricks, play around.


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## mtb

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> 12gms is never good


Says who? Water chemistry isn't that black and white. Plenty of AHB threads and other literature will tell you that. 

It depends on your water profile, and your target profile. I added 15g of Calcium Sulfate to yesterday's IPA and that's pretty much standard for my IPA profile.

Oxidisation is almost certainly your issue here. You don't necessarily need a fancy pants beer gun, just any method of purging the bottle will do. A Sodastream bottle, adapter, reg, and short length of gas line will suffice.


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Thanks mate. I'm just making known my personal findings on the 12g. Whilst this apparently takes my profile to 300ppm which I assume would make character 'pop', I've never actually had a hoppy beer with it, despite using the same amount each time.

Thinking back, the lesser amounts have always been hoppier for some reason or another, same oxidation for all batches and mostly the same recipe, too. So it's from my personal experience and water I say this.

I've also had great advice from another brewer who says "at the end of the day, it's taste that matters, not numbers in a textbook" and he's absolutely correct



mtb said:


> Says who? Water chemistry isn't that black and white. Plenty of AHB threads and other literature will tell you that.
> 
> It depends on your water profile, and your target profile. I added 15g of Calcium Sulfate to yesterday's IPA and that's pretty much standard for my IPA profile.
> 
> Oxidisation is almost certainly your issue here. You don't necessarily need a fancy pants beer gun, just any method of purging the bottle will do. A Sodastream bottle, adapter, reg, and short length of gas line will suffice.


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Wow, this is interesting info

You know, I've used 6g chloride instead of the 3g I normally used and less gypsum one time in a hoppy brew and it was possibly one of the best aromatic one's I've actually done.. plus, another thing I definitely noted was a really crazy fermentation..? I'm not sure why. Same everything and yeast as normal so I might try this too. Could have something to do with my mash ph because I don't have a meter

Cheers

I find it funny to think that apparently sulphates boost hop character but I don't think this is the case(?) In thinking back on my experiences anyway



Dan Pratt said:


> when your saying juicy, that makes me think of NEIPA style which is the polar opposite of typical ways to make an IPA.
> 
> They are using 200ppm of Cholride and only 50-70ppm of sulphate, basically swapping the 2 around, pushing high chlorides.
> 
> You want to chase a heap of late hops, eg 5min or less, flameout, WP @ less than 80c, WP @` less than 60c, dry hop day 1 of fermentation and again dry hop day 4 of fermentation.
> 
> Use really fruity hops like Galaxy, Citra, Mosaic, Simcoe, Amarillo etc etc.
> 
> Whilst bottling though your O2 pickup will be off the charts and basically wrecking your hops oil stability and they would break down quite fast.
> 
> Google, closed system brewing and dissolved oxygen and you will see it takes alot of equipment and effort to get the best out of your hops.


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## yankinoz

*1.6.1 Packaging and its potential ability to scalp dry-hop flavor:* “The hydrophobic nature of hop aroma compounds makes them vulnerable to adsorption and absorption by hydrophobic polymers”. The most common occurrence of this is in cap liners. The extent depends on the type of polymer. In one study mycrene and humulene were found to have completely migrated into the cap liners of examined retail beers._ This is an interesting aspect to those of us who bottle beers and don’t pay much attention to the type of bottle cap we are using.

Here is the rest of the blog
http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2012/12/12/interesting-paper-on-dry-hopping/_[/QUOTE]

What about PET bottles?


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Ok. Who's usibg hop spiders? Are they a step up from throwing straight in? I need to get one to remove green particles from the wort so at least I can rule that out too

After downing a longneck of my latest pale ale (it's nice and everything, and I'm so far impressed with the first trial of Maris Otter) but the hop dept is all just "old".

Tastes like a Coopers pale ale, like all I can taste is some bitterness and a bunch of really old hops, like, just the old green particles that taste like they're second hand from someone else's nice IPA.. I really want to overhaul everything I'm doing to hoppy brews. Very happy with my pilsners but these hoppy beers just aren't hitting the mark


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## Danscraftbeer

Um. then Fresh Hops! Do you grow your own? Do it if you can. I know the flavor of old pellet hops, not good. Adds a stale flavor to your beer. Exception on different hops. That's why they have a storage quality on different types but you just cant beat fresh hops for punchy juicy hopped up beer. Freshest ingredients for all of it really. You can get away with longer years on Malt grain.

and, No on the hop spiders IMO. Its a cage!, trapping the true nature of the beast to blend with your malts. The simple old whirl pool has excellent effect as long as you don't disturb the cone when draining etc. Very clear wort is rewarding especially when it smells like awesome Nectar.


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Dude, we can grow about 3 different plants in Darwin, and unfortunately hops aint one if em'


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## ein stein

Yeah not sold on the idea of the liners in bottle caps absorbing all your hop aromas. what about keg orings, beer lines, transfer hoses,HDPE fermenters etc? Ive not smelled one and said "oh snap thats where all my hop flavours went!" 
Don't use a hop spider myself and I've heard they clog really easily. I just dangle a hop sock in the boil. Now I am kegging I do my transfers under a thick (and visible) layer of Co2 and I am loving the results.


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Also Dan, even though my hops smell really fresh from the packet, they seem to die right away when thrown into the wort. I'm guessing this is normal considering I've done lots of ag brews now with many kinds of hops though. Just trying to troubleshoot all I can


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## Danscraftbeer

I'm trying too! It is the search for the Holy Grail. Although I have been satisfied with my latest techniques. Its the ingredients as well as the technique. Its so many points of process. Brew geek science. 
Darwin? Fark me. I guess you only have the higher temp yeasts recipes to deal with unless you have some underground cellar, fermentation chambers for cooler temp control etc.


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## mtb

If there's one thing I changed that really ramped up the hop "juiciness" in my IPAs, it was ditching the hop spider / hop sock / whatever else people use to separate hop matter from their wort. Hop matter goes straight into the boil and I recirculate throughout the final 30min of the boil with a pump; this sanitises the pump and mixes the batch for maximum exposure of hop matter to wort. The difference it made is phenomenal.

As for keeping that freeballing hop matter in the kettle and out of my fermenters - it's as easy as standing the wort for 30min after reaching groundwater temp and removing the immersion chiller. Hop matter settles to the bottom, below my outlet valve. I then transfer to FV with the pump, no movement of the kettle involved. I put the lid on at this stage to prevent contamination as obviously it's at prime risk for infection - but I haven't had an infection yet *touch wood*


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Just did a little experiment with some Cascade pellets into a fake whirlpool situation to see if the amount yields enough of a charge to give that famous aroma. 

I scaled 200gms flameout in a standard 23l batch down to 1gm p/-100ml and tipped this into a bottle. The aroma is fantastic. So the amount is definitely not a problem. Points to oxygen as most have stated previously


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## huez

wide eyed and legless said:


> Peter Wolfes thesis on hop flavours will explain a lot if you google it. Here is an extract off Braukaiser's extract of the findings.
> 
> *1.6.1 Packaging and its potential ability to scalp dry-hop flavor:* “The hydrophobic nature of hop aroma compounds makes them vulnerable to adsorption and absorption by hydrophobic polymers”. The most common occurrence of this is in cap liners. The extent depends on the type of polymer. In one study mycrene and humulene were found to have completely migrated into the cap liners of examined retail beers._ This is an interesting aspect to those of us who bottle beers and don’t pay much attention to the type of bottle cap we are using.
> 
> Here is the rest of the blog
> http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2012/12/12/interesting-paper-on-dry-hopping/_



I remember hearing dr charlie bamforth talk about this on a podcast, i'll have to relisten to it. Apparently an issue often over looked in the beer world. Another reason to check the bottle on date really, if the bottle has that date...


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## Doctormcbrewdle

I've got a good freezer for temp control but cellaring isn't easy. It's bloody hot wherever you put them!



Danscraftbeer said:


> I'm trying too! It is the search for the Holy Grail. Although I have been satisfied with my latest techniques. Its the ingredients as well as the technique. Its so many points of process. Brew geek science.
> Darwin? Fark me. I guess you only have the higher temp yeasts recipes to deal with unless you have some underground cellar, fermentation chambers for cooler temp control etc.


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## wide eyed and legless

yankinoz said:


> *1.6.1 Packaging and its potential ability to scalp dry-hop flavor:* “The hydrophobic nature of hop aroma compounds makes them vulnerable to adsorption and absorption by hydrophobic polymers”. The most common occurrence of this is in cap liners. The extent depends on the type of polymer. In one study mycrene and humulene were found to have completely migrated into the cap liners of examined retail beers._ This is an interesting aspect to those of us who bottle beers and don’t pay much attention to the type of bottle cap we are using.
> 
> Here is the rest of the blog
> http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2012/12/12/interesting-paper-on-dry-hopping/_



What about PET bottles?[/QUOTE]
Same situation if it has a polymeric cap liner, they have had the same problem throughout the food and drink packaging industry, the good news is research is on going to replace the liners. (see page 27)
file:///C:/Users/user/Downloads/Wolfe_thesis%20(2).pdf


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## yankinoz

manticle said:


> I'm not a massive fan of stupidly hop forward beers but 300 ppm seems much too high to me. I'd aim for 150 - 200 max and that's presuming mash pH is taken care of.
> 
> One controlled experiment that touches on sulphate and hop flavour (not aroma) found a statistically significant but not very large negative correlation (-0.44 slope, .05 confidence interval)..
> 
> Van Havig, Maximizing Hop Flavor and Aroma through Process Variables, MBAA Tech Quarterly 47(2), 2009.


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## Doctormcbrewdle

It's certainly a fact that Coke tastes better from a bottle than PET. I don't think that can be disputed. And again different from a can as well, so there's definitely something to it


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## Markbeer

My brews are fantastic out of the fermenter but after a week in the bottle the hops disappear. Its not a time thing, after an extra week in the fermenter it's still ok, it's in the transfer.

This will solve my problem eventually. I am not worried what craftbrewers do. We can do things they can't. One vessel no transfer is what we need.

https://www.blichmannengineering.com/products/cornical

As for bottling, I am a bottler, try using citric acid in the mash and sparge, it's helped me and I deduce its because it's a good anti oxidant.


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## Doctormcbrewdle

I'm struggling to understand how if you're careful not to splash and transfer underneath the liquid without oxygen how any oxygen above the surface of beer for an hour or so at bottling time can absorb problematic anounts of oxygen?

I can understand this easily occurring inside a bottle as beer ferments and carbs, reabsorbing the headspace but not before this. Am I wrong? If so, how?


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> I wonder if this is actually true about the liner? I'd imagine it's actually oxygen instead but, I just don't know for sure yet



Log Kow for Myrcene is 4.33, so the myrcene in 500 ml of beer would reach equilibrium with ~10 mg of a linear alkane*, eg the total quantity of myrcene would be split equally between the two. 

Assuming the liner weighs at least a gram, more than 99% of the myrcene would eventually end up in it. How long this takes is another matter.

* the standard is octane but polythene would have the same effect.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

Markbeer said:


> As for bottling, I am a bottler, try using citric acid in the mash and sparge, it's helped me and I deduce its because it's a good anti oxidant.



Citric acid has very limited antioxidant poperties, I would not have thought it functioned as an antioxidant in wort. Did you mean ascorbic acid?


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## Doctormcbrewdle

So this explains the great smelling IPA cap!



Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Log Kow for Myrcene is 4.33, so the myrcene in 500 ml of beer would reach equilibrium with ~10 mg of a linear alkane*, eg the total quantity of myrcene would be split equally between the two.
> 
> Assuming the liner weighs at least a gram, more than 99% of the myrcene would eventually end up in it. How long this takes is another matter.
> 
> * the standard is octane but polythene would have the same effect.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

Personally, I don't like the smell of myrcene so no.


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## Doctormcbrewdle

You'd LOVE my beers then


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## Bribie G

With bottling, the original counter pressure bottle fillers that were all the rage maybe eight years ago, flushed the bottle with CO2 first then the beer was introduced from below, and didn't come into contact with oxygen. The best method was to have a bit of foam up to the top of the bottle then cap quickly. You needed three hands and arms to do it efficiently .. I know there are a couple on the forum who still use them but I sold mine after repainting the garage walls and ceilings many times by turning the levers in the wrong sequence. Now I keg.


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## Markbeer

You could be right, maybe it's something else going on. When I switched to lactic I lost some fruitiness. 

I know Charlie papazian adds ascorbic to his beer though so is it worth a try?



Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Citric acid has very limited antioxidant poperties, I would not have thought it functioned as an antixodidant in wort. Did you mean ascorbic acid?


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## Markbeer

For me its about eliminating the oxygen in the headspace. Transfer with no oxygen pickup to a bottle with none in it. I've heard of oxygen absorbing caps but could be a gimmick.



Doctormcbrewdle said:


> I'm struggling to understand how if you're careful not to splash and transfer underneath the liquid without oxygen how any oxygen above the surface of beer for an hour or so at bottling time can absorb problematic anounts of oxygen?
> 
> I can understand this easily occurring inside a bottle as beer ferments and carbs, reabsorbing the headspace but not before this. Am I wrong? If so, how?


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## Jack of all biers

Markbeer said:


> You could be right, maybe it's something else going on. When I switched to lactic I lost some fruitiness.
> 
> I know Charlie papazian adds ascorbic to his beer though so is it worth a try?



If you used citric prior to your switch to lactic, then that would explain a noticeable lowering of the fruity flavours. Because citric acid adds fruity flavours itself.

It would have almost zero to do with any anti-oxidant affect of citric acid.

How much, at what stage and how does he recommend adding ascorbic acid to the beer?


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## husky

droid said:


> I've canned and bottled at two micros - both have already had the beer carbed and hopped in tanks. The bottles/cans are purged with co2 then filled and capped (possibly with a little injection of c02 to top it off - can't remember) on a foamy head.
> 
> I met a guy the other day who used to work at Gage Roads in the early years, he said they worked out that a shot of hot water (not sure of temp and amount) was used just before capping the bottles...but again this is carbed beer going into bottles not uncarbed and sugar
> 
> sorry - prolly not that helpful but maybe an insight into at least a couple of micros and how they go about it



Most of the micro bottlers I have seen pull vacuum then charge with CO2 up to 5 times prior to filling. Even still their IPA's are better from a keg which they say is the oxygen pick up even when capping on foam. O2 is the enemy at packaging and what I have put the bulk of my time into lately as far as brewery process changes. Starting to see results justifying the additional work.


----------



## Markbeer

It's in one of his books. I can't recall when or how much. Jamil talked about it as well.

As an aside he also mentioned, completely off topic, that he dips all his bottle ends after capping in wax. Nothing to do with oxygenation but could just be habit like the ascorbic acid addition.



Jack of all biers said:


> If you used citric prior to your switch to lactic, then that would explain a noticeable lowering of the fruity flavours. Because citric acid adds fruity flavours itself.
> 
> It would have almost zero to do with any anti-oxidant affect of citric acid.
> 
> How much, at what stage and how does he recommend adding ascorbic acid to the beer?


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

husky said:


> Most of the micro bottlers I have seen pull vacuum then charge with CO2 up to 5 times prior to filling.



Five times? Really? Why wouldn't you just buy a bottling line that actually works?


----------



## husky

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Five times? Really? Why wouldn't you just buy a bottling line that actually works?



$$$$$
This one was 2 head @ $20k, a good one would be 5 x that and when you are starting out not really justifiable.


----------



## SixStar

Right water, Conan yeast, try to find the heady topper clone online, I’ve had lots of heady and it’s pretty close. That will rock ya.


----------



## Schikitar

Curious, if oxygen is the enemy of hop aroma/flavour then doesn't oxygenating your wort before fermentation then negate/impact all those late additions?


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

No. Only oxidation post fermentation


----------



## mtb

Schikitar said:


> Curious, if oxygen is the enemy of hop aroma/flavour then doesn't oxygenating your wort before fermentation then negate/impact all those late additions?


Probably. But the benefits outweigh the negatives.


----------



## Hez

Hi, I''m in the same situation. I've tried to make 5 different IPA style hoppy beers which turned out being pretty good but never as hoppy as I wanted. I do BIAB, I bottle and I do:
- big 0' additions at 80ºC for 30' before chilling
- use an immersion chiller
- ph control with lactic acid (mash and sparge)
- salts additions (mash, sparge and boil "for seasoning")
- dry hopping with multiple socks (to try to maximize the contact of the hops with the beer) using weight to keep them submerged

I prime the bottles with table sugar individually and I use a wand for filling the bottles straight from THE fermenter (one and only, the fermenter tap/spiggot is always above the level of the trub) from the bottom, so the beer is almost not-in-contact with the air.

Las time, I washed my hands thoroughly, sprayed them with sanitizer, let them dry and I squeezed the hop shocks inside the fermenter. Still not hoppy enough.

For my next one (https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/biab-american-pale-ale-extra-hoppy.97202/#post-1490593) I will (on top of the ph control, salts, chilling, etc.):
- use Citra and Amarillo hops instead of a single hop
- use one hop shock for the 60' addition, another for the 10' and two more for the 0' instead of filling the hop spider with all the hops
- 4.7g/L at 0'
- squeeze the shit out of the shocks after chilling (sanitized hands)
- start dry hopping after 5 days or fermentation complete without hop shocks
- 8.8g/L dry hop: half for 7 days, the other half for 4 days.
- cold crash for 24h to 3ºC before bottling <- I have a fermentation fridge at last!
- fill all bottles, put the caps on top and then start to bottle (instead of fill and cap right away) as told in a previous post

If that doesn't work, next time I will thorw the hops directly into the pot and I will try the whirpool-and-syphon (my kettle doesn't have a tap/spiggot). On top of that I will make a hop infusion in boiled water (steep 10g/L, 5' at 90ºC, then cool quickly to room temp before priming) with the priming sugar and I will prime the bottles with this syrup instead of only the sugar.

If this doesn't work, I will stop trying to make hoppy beers until I have kegs :S 
...there's plenty of fish in the sea.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Schikitar said:


> Curious, if oxygen is the enemy of hop aroma/flavour then doesn't oxygenating your wort before fermentation then negate/impact all those late additions?


I think you will find the oxygen will be taken up by the yeast before any oxidisation occurs I have read 20 to 30 minutes for the yeast to utilise the yeast.


----------



## mtb

Hez said:


> - 4.7g/L at 0'
> - 8.8g/L dry hop



Lordy that's a lot of hops. If there's one way to justify kegging from a monetary perspective it's that you'd use about 1/3 the amount to get the same aroma.. and hops ain't cheap, big saving there.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

Schikitar said:


> Curious, if oxygen is the enemy of hop aroma/flavour then doesn't oxygenating your wort before fermentation then negate/impact all those late additions?



Firstly, as WEL says if you manage your oxygenation properly there is a very short window in which there is measurable DO2 before the yeast takes it up*. Secondly, as Dr McBrewdle says, post fermentation oxidation is much more important.

Why?

The oxidation of terpenes and terpene alcohols is mediated by the hydroxyethyl radical, itself formed from ethanol during post fermentation oxidation. See for instance Almeida et al "Mechanism of hop derived terpenes oxidation in beer". No ethanol -> no hydroxyethyl radical -> limited hop oxidation.

In addition, hop derived terpenes are subject to biotransformation during fermentation and these transformed compounds are important for hop aromas**. On the other hand, the reaction rates for oxidation of terpinolene, beta farnesene and alpha humulene (likely to be present from dry hopping) are much higher ( x 30) than those for say terpineol and citronellol (produced from biotransformation of hop compounds).



* Logically, the slower you add the oxygen in the presence of yeast the less DO2 will be available for side reactions. Yes, that's a blatant plug for my oxygenator.

** Which is one reason I prefer to "dry hop" when there is some yeast activity: I prefer the biotransformed flavours and aromas to raw hoppiness.


----------



## Schikitar

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> ** Which is one reason I prefer to "dry hop" when there is some yeast activity: I prefer the biotransformed flavours and aromas to raw hoppiness.



Ah yes, interesting.. thanks for the too-technical-for-my-brain response, I get the gist of it!


----------



## Hez

mtb said:


> Lordy that's a lot of hops. If there's one way to justify kegging from a monetary perspective it's that you'd use about 1/3 the amount to get the same aroma.. and hops ain't cheap, big saving there.



Well, I do "half batches" (10L), I've calculated that this batch will cost me 1.10$ a bottle (water, gas, electricity and labour not included). Good enough for me... in fact I've calculated that with my 9th batch I already paid for all my brewing equipment:
9 batches * 10L/batch = 270 33cl bottles.
1 commercial good beer = 4$ (average) -> 270 bottles * 4$ = 1080$
1 home made beer = 1$ (average) -> 270 bottles * 1$ = 270$

I read a post in which someone had calculated the cost of electricity, water and gas together to produce a 20L batch in Sydney and I don't remember exactly, but being very generous lets say 10$, so in rough numbers...

1080$ (commecial beer equivalent cost) 
- 270$ (grain + hops + yeast) 
- 90$ (water + gas + electricity) 
- 600$ (my brewing equipment cost so far)
= 120$ savings!!!

I don't count the labour because that's the fun.

With the humongous taxes you have over alcohol in this country, homebrewing is a very good way of saving money!
Well, not drinking beer would be better for your wallet and your liver, but sad for you. ;P


----------



## mtb

Home brewing is undoubtedly cheaper than commercial, and cheap in general. I'm simply saying it can be cheaper again.


----------



## Hez

mtb said:


> Home brewing is undoubtedly cheaper than commercial, and cheap in general. I'm simply saying it can be cheaper again.



Yep, absolutely, but the initial inversion is bigger and the rentability is at a longer term. If I was to stay in Australia indefinitely (and I had the room) I would buy the kegs and everything!


----------



## Dave70

mtb said:


> *If there's one thing I changed that really ramped up the hop "juiciness" in my IPAs, it was ditching the hop spider / hop sock / whatever else people use to separate hop matter from their wort. Hop matter goes straight into the boil and I recirculate throughout the final 30min of the boil with a pump; this sanitises the pump and mixes the batch for maximum exposure of hop matter to wort. The difference it made is phenomenal.*
> 
> As for keeping that freeballing hop matter in the kettle and out of my fermenters - it's as easy as standing the wort for 30min after reaching groundwater temp and removing the immersion chiller. Hop matter settles to the bottom, below my outlet valve. I then transfer to FV with the pump, no movement of the kettle involved. I put the lid on at this stage to prevent contamination as obviously it's at prime risk for infection - but I haven't had an infection yet *touch wood*



Yep. Only use mine these days where hops really arent the star of the show.


----------



## Grogler

mtb said:


> If there's one thing I changed that really ramped up the hop "juiciness" in my IPAs, it was ditching the hop spider / hop sock / whatever else people use to separate hop matter from their wort. Hop matter goes straight into the boil and I recirculate throughout the final 30min of the boil with a pump; this sanitises the pump and mixes the batch for maximum exposure of hop matter to wort. The difference it made is phenomenal.
> 
> As for keeping that freeballing hop matter in the kettle and out of my fermenters - it's as easy as standing the wort for 30min after reaching groundwater temp and removing the immersion chiller. Hop matter settles to the bottom, below my outlet valve. I then transfer to FV with the pump, no movement of the kettle involved. I put the lid on at this stage to prevent contamination as obviously it's at prime risk for infection - but I haven't had an infection yet *touch wood*


Are you able to reharvest yeast cleanly with this method? I follow the same procedure you outlined but usually the yeast I collect has some hop matter buried in it ( compare the Hazy Pale Ale harvest with the hefeweizen harvest in the picture). It may be I simply need to give more time for the hops to settle out post boil before racking to fermenter.


----------



## mtb

My yeast harvests are pretty clean. The 30min post-boil and pre-transfer to FV is more than enough time for the hop matter to drop out. Given what I get in the glass & what I pour out when the keg is empty, I'm confident that I actually get zero hop matter from the kettle


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Hez said:


> With the humongous taxes you have over alcohol in this country, homebrewing is a very good way of saving money!
> Well, not drinking beer would be better for your wallet and your liver, but sad for you. ;P



I would love to know what the retailer makes and what the taxes are. Bulk buy anyone.
https://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=beer


----------



## SeeFar

wide eyed and legless said:


> I would love to know what the retailer makes and what the taxes are. Bulk buy anyone.
> https://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=beer




Ha, I love it: 

Variety: home brewed beer
Place of origin: Zhezhiang
Minimum order: 200 cartons. 

That's some impressive output for a home brewer!!


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

So, what tf happened to the hops thread?! How exactly did we get here?


----------



## mtb

Just a couple of off topic posts, it's hardly a hellish descent into anarchy.


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Question: Is it also possible that dry hopping can introduce oxygen?


----------



## manticle

If you open your vessel and drop something in - yes. From the process rather than from the hops themselves. In a pressurised ferment, that risk is minimised, keg hopping a pressurised keg likewise, dry hopping a still active ferment same (although co2 can drive off volatiles if theyhave somewhere to go. No one system is perfect - it’s all about steps to improve.


----------



## SeeFar

This paper/research suggests that hops does have oxygen in it, which is introduced when adding: 

http://scottjanish.com/examination-...s-for-achieving-maximum-hop-aroma-and-flavor/


----------



## manticle

Undoubtedly. Arguably much less than the act of opening the lid and casting particulate matter into your solution. As I suggested, doing into a co2 rich environment (active fermentation for example) may reduce that.


----------



## SeeFar

In response to the original question, I'm doing kit and a bit in bottles and I'm very pleasantly surprised as to how much of a hop hit I'm able to get. Ok, it's not a Pirate Life IPA/Feral War Hog/Bridge Road Bling but I reckon if I temp controlled and kegged I'd hit the spot. This is what I'm drinking now and if all my beers after this one are at least this good I'll be very pleased:

1.5kg Morgans pale malt extract - unhopped
1.5kg DW Pilsner malt extract - unhopped
250gm maltodextrin
200gm pale crystal steeped for 20 min at 65c
15gm Simcoe for 20min
5gm Amarillo 10min
5gm Galaxy 10min
11.5gm Safale US 0.5
25 litres (which is where I went wrong, should have been no more than 22)
OG 1041

I started dry hopping 2 days into the fermentation process with:

15gm Amarillo
15gm Simcoe
20gm Galaxy

However, the airlock had slowed a lot by day 4 and the gravity was at 1012 meaning that my beer was only 3.8% ABV.

I put in another 330gm of dry light malt extract with 500ml of water that had 10gm of Simcoe boiled for 10 min and 18gm Citra steeped for 8min. It was bottled 10 days later on the 1st of Dec with a final gravity of 1011.

I'm drinking it now and it is by far the best beer I've ever brewed. I'd put it at a mild IPA or a full-bodied, full-hopped pale. It was only bottled on 1 Dec, so I know I'm drinking it too early. But it is perfectly carbonated (used Coopers carbodrops) and so full of flavour.

The process was obviously a comedy of errors but the end result, no matter how accidental, is dead-set delicious (gotta say, the one I poured before was a whole lot more clear than the one I photographed. Taste pretty much the same, though).


----------



## Hez

manticle said:


> Undoubtedly. Arguably much less than the act of opening the lid and casting particulate matter into your solution. As I suggested, doing into a co2 rich environment (active fermentation for example) may reduce that.


If the fermentation is still on going, more CO2 will come out from the beer displacing the oxigen to the top and eventually out the fermenter up the airlock, CO2 has higher density than air. 
Anyway, when you open the lid, some air will go inside but even if the fermentation is over, the fermenter will be full of CO2, so this new introduced air will end up trapped between the CO2 and the lid.
Do you think that's something to worry about?

If you ferment under pressure, when you open the fermenter, all air and CO2 from inside will escape (normalize pressure) and will be replaced by air, so if you want a CO2-only-environment and dry hopping you should purge the air with CO2 before starting the fermentation and add the dry hops to some kind of pressurized capsule directly connected to the fermenter with a valve. I don't know if that equipment even exists...

Thinking about density, one thing I don't know and maybe it's a stupid question , but.. the hops release oil, oil has less density than water, beer is more dense, so... Oil floats!
Does that mean that this oils will be lost if you fill the bottles from the fermenter tap/spigot???? :S nooo! So what do we do to keep them? Auto syphon to other bucket and stir before filling the bottles? That will introduce more air for sure!

Probably this doesn't make any sense...

Answer to myself: oh you are dense!


----------



## Jack of all biers

Hez said:


> If the fermentation is still on going, more CO2 will come out from the beer displacing the oxigen to the top and eventually out the fermenter up the airlock, CO2 has higher density than air.
> Anyway, when you open the lid, some air will go inside but even if the fermentation is over, the fermenter will be full of CO2, so this new introduced air will end up trapped between the CO2 and the lid.
> Do you think that's something to worry about?


This comes up a lot. The answer is that different gases mix despite the density or molecular weights. Air (78% nitrogen, 20.9% oxygen 1% Argon and 0.1% other gases) will mix with the CO2 in the fermentor and not sit above it in a separate layer. Part of that mixing is due to different energy levels in the individual molecules (ones with more energy will move around more), but part of it is that when one lifts the lid, one creates pressure differences (ie drafts) that mix the gases no matter what we think about blankets of CO2 being formed. 



Hez said:


> If you ferment under pressure, when you open the fermenter, all air and CO2 from inside will escape (normalize pressure) and will be replaced by air, so if you want a CO2-only-environment and dry hopping you should purge the air with CO2 before starting the fermentation and add the dry hops to some kind of pressurized capsule directly connected to the fermenter with a valve. I don't know if that equipment even exists...


A lot of brewers who pressure ferment transfer from fermentor to pre-CO2-purged kegs without ever exposing the beer to air (and oxygen). Others counter-pressure fill into pre-purged bottles, but that is very difficult to do without at least some air exposure. Most wont open the pressurised fermentor lid as you have described. One way of doing a dry hop would be to add the hops at the beginning of the fermentation and/or to a keg prior to purging with CO2. Pressure transfer from fermentor to keg with hops then after the required time, transfer to another purged keg. As you are bottling until you go back to Spain, this may not help your enquiry though.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say regarding the hop oils. Are you asking about the aroma and flavour compounds obtained from dry hoping?


----------



## Hez

Jack of all biers said:


> This comes up a lot. The answer is that different gases mix despite the density or molecular weights. Air (78% nitrogen, 20.9% oxygen 1% Argon and 0.1% other gases) will mix with the CO2 in the fermentor and not sit above it in a separate layer. Part of that mixing is due to different energy levels in the individual molecules (ones with more energy will move around more), but part of it is that when one lifts the lid, one creates pressure differences (ie drafts) that mix the gases no matter what we think about blankets of CO2 being formed.
> 
> 
> A lot of brewers who pressure ferment transfer from fermentor to pre-CO2-purged kegs without ever exposing the beer to air (and oxygen). Others counter-pressure fill into pre-purged bottles, but that is very difficult to do without at least some air exposure. Most wont open the pressurised fermentor lid as you have described. One way of doing a dry hop would be to add the hops at the beginning of the fermentation and/or to a keg prior to purging with CO2. Pressure transfer from fermentor to keg with hops then after the required time, transfer to another purged keg. As you are bottling until you go back to Spain, this may not help your enquiry though.
> 
> I'm not sure what you are trying to say regarding the hop oils. Are you asking about the aroma and flavour compounds obtained from dry hoping?



Thank you for the explanation. Lesson learnt. I knew that wasn't going to be so simple... jejeje pure logic only takes you to one point... (I'm a software analyst, last time I studied chemistry I was 14 )

Yes, I've read some people worry about the oil film on top of the beer, I guess that'd be the oils from the hops (if the fermenter was properly clean and sanitized), and I was thinking... if the hops aroma and flavour are in their oils, and we leave them behind... (this film of oil floating over the beer) we are doing it wrong??
Or are the flavour and aroma already dissolved into the beer by this time?

I'm good at maths, but I have to study chemistry, I have no clue of what I am talking about... 

This evening I have to do the first of the two dry hops I have prepared for my hoppy-APA. I'll try to be quick and drop them close to the surface to avoid splashing, what else can i do? :S


----------



## Jack of all biers

I don't think it works that way (the oils you've described as floating on the surface being the flavour and aroma compounds), but my knowledge of the compounds that are obtained from dry hopping is limited. Someone else will no doubt be able to educate you, but I'd say don't go out of your way to try to mix that oily residue into your beer as you will likely do more harm than good by oxidizing during the mixing.


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

While we're on the topic: I always stir gently to mix the pre boiled priming sucrose through the beer evenly because I dare say some bottles would be overcarbed and some under if I didn't. (In bottling bucket)

Are people generally doing the same or not mixing at all?


----------



## Hez

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> While we're on the topic: I always stir gently to mix the pre boiled priming sucrose through the beer evenly because I dare say some bottles would be overcarbed and some under if I didn't. (In bottling bucket)
> 
> Are people generally doing the same or not mixing at all?



If i did bulk priming i would definitely stirr it, as you say, but I don't, I prime every single bottle one by one like a champ. I use a syringe with the tip cut off (it's like a cylinder adjustable in volume), I weight my priming sugar once, and measure the next 30 times with this "advanced priming tool". The important thing is to tap it a little to be sure you don't have gaps in between the sugar "grains".

I've thought about making the priming syrup with hops and using a regular syringe for priming the bottles one by one with that, but, I don't know how would that work...

The thing is, when you syphon the beer from the fermenter to the priming bucket, do you get this oil or does it stick to the syphon itself?

It would be interesting to know about this oil, any advanced chemist among us?


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

I get the oil in my bucket. But, I also lose a little of it to trub loss too

I also used to use a sugar measure too


----------



## goatchop41

Garfield said:


> My juiciest IPA was achieved with galaxy:
> Hops:
> None during boil
> 1g/L flameout with whirlpool
> 1g/L at high krausen for 3 days
> 1g/L late ferment for 3 days
> 1g/L post ferment for 3 days
> 
> Juicey as hell! Loads of passion fruit flavour



Total of 4g/L - this is still on the VERY low side for NEIPA-type beers (which we can assume the OP is after, as they are looking for 'juicy' character).
Homebrewers who I have seen making outstanding examples of these beers are using 10-15g/L total between whirlpool and dry hopping


----------



## TheSumOfAllBeers

The CO2 stratification myth doggedly persists in homebrewing circles.

Gases will evenly mix, given time, and this process is massively accelerated by say, lifting the lid off of a plastic fermenter and creating a massive vortex.

Having a small port like say a 1.5" tri clamp port in you FV helps with the vortex scenario, but some O2 is going to get in.

It has made me think about whether you can get a tri clamp unit that you can purge that would let you do this kind of operation


----------



## SeeFar

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> While we're on the topic: I always stir gently to mix the pre boiled priming sucrose through the beer evenly because I dare say some bottles would be overcarbed and some under if I didn't. (In bottling bucket)
> 
> Are people generally doing the same or not mixing at all?



I bottle, I do a primary ferment, I rack into another fermenter to dry hop and clear some of the sediment out and if I bulk prime I do so as I transfer into another vessel. I mix the dextrose with a small amount of boiled water and add it as the wort goes into the new vessel. I have the tube that transfers the wort coiled on the bottom of the vessel to create a swirl that mixes the liquid dex in evenly. IF you want you can also add some hop tea at this point - I've only done that once though but it seems to have worked out ok.


----------



## Garfield

SeeFar said:


> I bottle, I do a primary ferment, I rack into another fermenter to dry hop and clear some of the sediment out and if I bulk prime I do so as I transfer into another vessel. I mix the dextrose with a small amount of boiled water and add it as the wort goes into the new vessel. I have the tube that transfers the wort coiled on the bottom of the vessel to create a swirl that mixes the liquid dex in evenly. IF you want you can also add some hop tea at this point - I've only done that once though but it seems to have worked out ok.



I'm much the same:

1. Ferment in primary
2. Dry hop in secondary and cold crash
3. Bulk prime in bottling vessel

Priming sugar syrup added to empty vessel then rack finished beer onto this. If you place the outlet at the bottom of vessel, you'll generally get a slight whirpool action to blend it all together. I've never noticed any variation in carbonation between bottles. Having done this method on 50+ batches I'm happy so attest to its consistency.

However, do you CO2 calculations accurately! I have twice overcarbonated entire batches


----------



## Garfield

SeeFar said:


> . IF you want you can also add some hop tea at this point - I've only done that once though but it seems to have worked out ok.



What is hop tea? Pellets steeped in hot water I assume? Does it have a different result to the dry hop?


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Thanks man. I'm looking at all these transfers and thinking that the dry hop step would probably be the single worst move we can make in terms of 02 pickup

We're all prone to some pickup whenever we transfer to the bottling bucket and bottling, but it's only a short window of opportunity because you generally bottle within the hour of transferring and adding prime.

Transferring to a second fermenting vessel for dry hop for x amount of days with pure oxygen is a great opportunity to oxidise your beer. Unless I'm missing something, it's more problematic than it is beneficial and I'd stick to dry hopping during active fermentation so there is next to no oxygen pickup

Understand that secondary is common knowledge but I think this is redundant information 



Garfield said:


> I'm much the same:
> 
> 1. Ferment in primary
> 2. Dry hop in secondary and cold crash
> 3. Bulk prime in bottling vessel
> 
> Priming sugar syrup added to empty vessel then rack finished beer onto this. If you place the outlet at the bottom of vessel, you'll generally get a slight whirpool action to blend it all together. I've never noticed any variation in carbonation between bottles. Having done this method on 50+ batches I'm happy so attest to its consistency.
> 
> However, do you CO2 calculations accurately! I have twice overcarbonated entire batches


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

I've done hop tea and even as far as a 100gm short steep, pouring equal amounts into 12x pale ale bottles at bottling. These were ok but still not as good as a good quality boutique pale ale, and they should have exceeded that but didn't. Oxidation is my best guess at this point before overhauling my process next brew



Garfield said:


> What is hop tea? Pellets steeped in hot water I assume? Does it have a different result to the dry hop?


----------



## SeeFar

@Doctormcbrewdle I can definitely see how you would think that and I was very apprehensive first time too. However, if you make sure that there is no splashing and it's a gentle transfer it doesn't really change much. I'm sure champion beer judges would tell the difference but it's negligible for a hack like myself. 

@Garfield I read about hop teas and gave them a go when I made a brew that was too weak (the one I posted back a page, I'd added too much water) and had to add some more fermentables. It's basically just a quick boil or some steeped hops added to the second fermentation or whenever you choose to add it, really. It seemed to work pretty well on that batch, I might give it a crack on a few others down the track to see what happens.


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

OBSERVATION: Just having a pale now from the bottle. It's hoppier abd more aromatic this way due to (I believe) a couple things

1. The shape of the bottle on the nose is more potent than say, a glass

2. I think aroma is floccing out with the yeast as it clears

I normally drink from a schooner and notice it seems to oxidise as pale ale's floc clear. Do believe I have some oxi issues and also it's probably not possible to get a clear hoppy beer on a home brew scale(?)

Sipping now tastes and smells just like a Feral hop hog to my nose. The Maris Otter is way too tasty to be much similar on the tongue but aroma I think is very similar. Definitely has the fresh bag of hops aroma.. or more the smell when you steep them. Not 'as' fresh but that's all hops I've ever had

Yields a new question for ne. Is it possible to have the aroma stay after flocc?


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Update: bottled latest ale malt lager straight from primary today rather than secondary to avoid oxygen pickup. Tapped bottles with cap sitting loosely on bottle and watched the various nucleation points explode with vigour while the caps would slowly lift up and down, purging oxygen before capping. It's not a hoppy pale ale but we'll see next brew. I used a sugar measure and gram scale to go to 2.4vols abd believe that this also helps purge oxygen because rather than the boiled sugar mixed into secondary, the fresh granules create nuke points to release o2, thus purging bottles by looks of things. 

A mate of mine said something the other day that gives me renewed hope. He said, these beers used to be alot 'fruitier' which is his word for pale ale hops. In thinking about that, he's right. I used to have little problem looking back when I was doing kits and adding fresh hops.. Things I did differently were: no secondary and possibly leaving all caps loose before capping off

Time will tell


----------



## SeeFar

But isn't that the same as a fermenter - the bottles aren't systematically pushing the O2 upwards and out the mouth replacing it with CO2 but mixing together with the air in the head space and what is being pushed out is a complete mix?


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Probably. But it's a complete step up from what I have been doing. Time will tell. There's bound to be less o2 than not doing this. How much? I don't know yet

I thought about purging the headspace but in reality, the same thing will happen: ie, it will mix with some oxygen from the environment before you can seal the cap


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Just another epiphany here. I was thinking about my process last night and realized that, with my complete lack of knowledge on o2 pickup, I'd been removing the airlock, pushing down on the fermenter lid multiple times to SNIFF how the dry hops are doing.. hiw the F didn't I know this after all these years brewing!? This alone is massive destruction to my hops. Let alone every single other step I've been making.

This next batch is set to be a complete showstopper of a pale. I've Little doubt it will be incredible (hope I don't have to eat these words a few weeks from now.. I'll be throwing the bottling gear and buying a kegerator)

Merry Christmas to you all


----------



## SeeFar

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Probably. But it's a complete step up from what I have been doing. Time will tell. There's bound to be less o2 than not doing this. How much? I don't know yet
> 
> I thought about purging the headspace but in reality, the same thing will happen: ie, it will mix with some oxygen from the environment before you can seal the cap


Yeah, keen to hear the results, if it works I might do the same thing whilst I still bottle.


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Sound like a sure fire go-getter


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

QUESTION: I've just had a thought. People use sodium metabisulfite to scrub oxygen in mash. What exactly is stopping anyone from using it in a bottling bucket, say. Would this theoretically remove residual oxygen left over from the bottling process?


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Ok. Now, even I can laugh at this. I've just cracked one of my last pales in a stubbie. And thought: geez this tastes exactly like a Feral hop hog, looked down and it was actually in a FHH bottle (laughs) I'd had 4x of these same pale's already today (just in schooners) and while they're really good (have also had a coyple boutique's for cmparison)I've just realized I'm just looking for that extreme hop aroma.. my beer is already as good as Feral, etc as it is, oxidised to absolutelle buggery. I swear, you really couldn't get much more o2 into my old brew if you tried and look.. I guess I'm quite happy with this

I must say, this last pale's backbone is so tasty, I have to attribute it to Maris Otter, M44 yeast and leaving the most trub I've ever done before.

While I can't recommend this for everyone's brew setup it seems to seriously work for mine. I've actually tipped a few 'boutique' beers this arvo to get back to my homies! Wow

I guess I'm just REALLY picky and haven't been able to get that huge, fresh hop hit. It's seriously all I'm missing in the pale ale dept.


----------



## koshari

6 pages in and my first post. Simply dry hopping 100g of cascade hops per 40l for the last 3 days in the primary is tuning out lovely juicy beer for me.


----------



## Garfield

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Ok. Now, even I can laugh at this. I've just cracked one of my last pales in a stubbie. And thought: geez this tastes exactly like a Feral hop hog, looked down and it was actually in a FHH bottle (laughs) I'd had 4x of these same pale's already today (just in schooners) and while they're really good (have also had a coyple boutique's for cmparison)I've just realized I'm just looking for that extreme hop aroma.. my beer is already as good as Feral, etc as it is, oxidised to absolutelle buggery



Are you absolutely sure this wasnt a Feral?


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Lol. Yea dude. I knew someone would ask this!

Here's a little story for you I was hoping I wouldn't have to type.. About 6 months ago, I tried my first Hog hog. Bought a 4-pack at the local after shopping to A/B against my pale with a mate. We cracked one each, took one sip and tipped the rest, leaving two fridged for later. The Wife even took a swig for good meaaure and confirmed, it was 'off' (don't worry, these are long gone) I was so dissapointed I wrote to Feral, telling them they were the first ever beers I'd bought here oxidised to the shedhouse. They were kind enough to send me a replacement 4 pack plus 4x Boris' imperial stouts.

Short story: the hogs were just ok. Certainly nothing special and I remember thinking even the fresh batch from factory were pretty crappy. I've since learned that's most definitely oxidation

The end


----------



## goatchop41

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> my beer is already as good as Feral, etc as it is, oxidised to absolutelle buggery.



No offense, but I find it incredibly doubtful that your beer is anywhere near as good as Hop Hog if it's oxidised (saying that an oxidised beer is better than a FHH is quite an insult to Feral, not a reflection on your beer)...one too many of your own homebrews tonight, methinks


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Well, what can I say. Thank you! I guess..


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## mtb

Beauty, eye, beer holder.


----------



## Hez

I love feral hop hog. 
What I've found is some of Feral's caps are oxydized (rusty) but their beer is amazing, just don't drink it from the bottle


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## SeeFar

Much prefer War Hog. 

If I can make a beer even close to that I'll be set.


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## goatchop41

Anyway, back on topic...

@Doctormcbrewdle I'm going to be the one to step out and say it: you're not going to truly get the hop character that you're after (especially 'juiciness') with your current process.
The simple fact is that even if you can get it initially in the fermenter, the oxidisation is going to destroy it by the time that your bottles have carbed.
Every step is adding more O2 to dissolve in the beer - opening the fermenter to dry hop; racking to an open and unpurged bottling bucket/fermenter; bottling in to unpurged bottles (doesn't matter if you do the little tap thing and cap on foam, sure it's a little better, but it's still copping plenty of O2).
At every one of those stages, you're introducing O2 that will gradually oxidise the beer. The last 2 parts of the process are the worst - a completely open bottling bucket full of atmospheric O2, that is having beer slowly added to it and moving all through that O2 (even if you're not splashing/agitating).
I don't buy the line that everyone trots out of 'the yeast will consume the O2 in the bottle' - yes, over time as it carbonates the bottle it will, but that doesn't happen instantaneously and at that point O2 has already been contacting the beer throughout the packaging process, which has already started the oxidisation process.

Simple and plain - if you want that sort of hop character (and to maintain it), what you do early on to introduce those characteristics doesn't matter if you essentially shit on the whole process when it comes to packaging.
Kegging, closed transfers in to purged vessels, and +/- keg hopping are pretty much mandatory if you want to be able to keep your hard work in decent condition for more than one or two weeks...


----------



## peteru

All of the above, but even before that, some decent sensory training will be required. Reading through the thread, I hear buzzword bingo and see someone latching onto the first plausible explanation as if it was a silver bullet.

It's much easier to fix things if you have the means to identify the specific faults.


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

I agree with the hypothesis at this point in time, but am also holding out for a few more weeks to see how this experiment actually goes. I'll keg if I have to, but I'll know very soon if I really do

I was just thinking, my new fermentation chest freezer absolutely wreaks of co2 when I open the lid. I think I'm actually safe to cold crash if I don't open this the whole fermentation.. the cooling will just suck co2 back. Just a thought


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Hez said:


> I love feral hop hog.
> What I've found is some of Feral's caps are oxydized (rusty) but their beer is amazing, just don't drink it from the bottle



I'm one of those people who just can't really see anything great about it. It's easy for a home brewer to emulate because I do it all the time through mistake hence why I created this thread! (Laughs) I guess it is a nice beer, just the grass is always greener (I'll be happy when I pump out a Pirate Life)

When they say 'explodes with citrus flavour' it really doesn't. It's sitting in the oxidised background. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's uniquely different to many beers and beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder. I've never been one to take sides, everything is good in it's place

When I think exploding citrus I think something like a Holgate XPA


----------



## Jack of all biers

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> I was just thinking, my new fermentation chest freezer absolutely wreaks of co2 when I open the lid. I think I'm actually safe to cold crash if I don't open this the whole fermentation.. the cooling will just suck co2 back. Just a thought


Your fermentation freezer reeks of CO2? You mean fermented wort. The CO2 from your fermentation does not neatly fill your freezer with CO2, expelling all other gases. All the gases mix and fairly evenly. The CO2 does not just drop to the bottom. Even if you have no fan to move the air around, the movement of CO2 from the airlock or gladwrap or whatever will mix the gases fairly evenly. Even if it managed to dilute the air space in your freezer by half you would still have an atmosphere of 10.5% O2.

It JUST DOESN'T WORK that way.


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Nice of you to let me know, Sir

How bout I DON'T do that then. Ok


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## Jack of all biers

Sorry, capitals were over the top. It wasn't just aimed at you. This myth of a CO2 blanket/CO2 sinking below other gases (O2) seems to persist no matter how many times it is refuted. Even blankets allow air to pass through them! Sometimes hot air, so excuse mine.


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Excused. I see where you're coming from


----------



## Hez

Jack of all biers said:


> Sorry, capitals were over the top. It wasn't just aimed at you. This myth of a CO2 blanket/CO2 sinking below other gases (O2) seems to persist no matter how many times it is refuted. Even blankets allow air to pass through them! Sometimes hot air, so excuse mine.


hoppy beer produces that hot air under your blanket...


----------



## goatchop41

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> I'm one of those people who just can't really see anything great about it. It's easy for a home brewer to emulate because I do it all the time through mistake hence why I created this thread! (Laughs) I guess it is a nice beer, just the grass is always greener (I'll be happy when I pump out a Pirate Life)
> 
> When they say 'explodes with citrus flavour' it really doesn't. It's sitting in the oxidised background. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's uniquely different to many beers and beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder. I've never been one to take sides, everything is good in it's place



Your constant reference to oxidised character in Hop Hog makes one think that you haven't experienced a fresh, well-handled bottle (or fresh keg), but merely a mishandled, past its prime bottle from Dans/BWS/etc.
You wouldn't be talking about oxidisation in a HH if you had a good example of it, just like every other beer in existence...


----------



## goatchop41

Jack of all biers said:


> Your fermentation freezer reeks of CO2? You mean fermented wort. The CO2 from your fermentation does not neatly fill your freezer with CO2, expelling all other gases. All the gases mix and fairly evenly. The CO2 does not just drop to the bottom. Even if you have no fan to move the air around, the movement of CO2 from the airlock or gladwrap or whatever will mix the gases fairly evenly. Even if it managed to dilute the air space in your freezer by half you would still have an atmosphere of 10.5% O2.
> 
> It JUST DOESN'T WORK that way.



In all seriousness though, if you squirt some CO2 directly over the wort surface, the fabled 'blanket' does actually exist for a short period of time (minutes), prior to the mixing of the gases in the headspace (but certainly not indefinitely, as most homebrewers would have us believe).


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Does direct from the factory count? Like I said, the first one (pre complaint to the company) was horrifically old. They sent me a 4 pack direct from the factory so it would be 'fresh'

I like it and all but look man, it's no Pirate Life


----------



## fdsaasdf

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Does direct from the factory count? Like I said, the first one (pre complaint to the company) was horrifically old. They sent me a 4 pack direct from the factory so it would be 'fresh'
> 
> I like it and all but look man, it's no Pirate Life


This doesn't stack up to me. PL make delicious beers but Feral were doing something very similar a decade before them. Hop Hog is a deliciously bright citrus-forward IPA when it's not tainted.


----------



## Garfield

goatchop41 said:


> In all seriousness though, if you squirt some CO2 directly over the wort surface, the fabled 'blanket' does actually exist for a short period of time (minutes), prior to the mixing of the gases in the headspace (but certainly not indefinitely, as most homebrewers would have us believe).


Minutes?! Geez what's even the point in that case?


----------



## mtb

That's the point. It's pointless.


----------



## goatchop41

mtb said:


> That's the point. It's pointless.



Got it in one


----------



## CJW

Jack of all biers said:


> . Even blankets allow air to pass through them! Sometimes hot air, so excuse mine.


Ever farted in bed? Gasses can permeate the blankets.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

Jack of all biers said:


> This myth of a CO2 blanket/CO2 sinking below other gases (O2) seems to persist no matter how many times it is refuted. Even blankets allow air to pass through them! Sometimes hot air, so excuse mine.



True that. 

I happen to be doing some work on this for another application (ullaged wine tanks) and the speed at which oxygen diffuses through an inert gas "blanket" is surprisingly high. Even if you could get your "blanket" to be a metre thick it will be effective for about an hour.

There's a good paper on the subject at this link: http://docs.dunescience.org/cgi-bin/RetrieveFile?docid=1798&filename=diffusion.docx&version=1 warning it's a download not a pdf


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Just bottled. I did NOT cold crash this one, was extremely careful of any oxygen and as a result of that, there was quite a bit of trub and hop matter still suspended that wouldn't settle out. Next time I might try capturing some co2 from the blow-off and hook it up when I crash. Though I'm still a tiny bit scared to even try this. Though the trub is excessive and I should just do it.

The beer smelled just like a fresh bag of hops..!! Yes, finally! Really excited about this.

I measured sugar on a gm scale per bottle to 2.4vols carb so I wouldn't have to decant into a bottling bucket but there was just too much hop matter going into bottles. A stocking over the bottling wand clogged within split seconds so I did 10 bottles like this and decided to rack to a bucket for the rest. I was careful not to splash and racked underneath the liquid with a stocking on the end of the syphon that caught hop matter, though still doesn't help the trub though

I shook the hell out of 1x bottle and introduced as much o2 as I could before quickly capping to test against the others later. The rest sat for 10 minutes before banging the bottles to rouse more co2 before capping off.

I'm hoping the fresh bag of hops aroma will stay around. Will know within 1-2 weeks (though excess trub is known to oxidise too..) because my recent (last 6 months at least) pale ale's have all died off by then. Ever since I bought that darn crash freezer.. the smell today reminded me of my beers pre cold crash and bottling bucket days, so we'll see how she goes and rethink those 2x steps in a few weeks. Stay tuned!


----------



## Hez

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Just bottled. I did NOT cold crash this one, was extremely careful of any oxygen and as a result of that, there was quite a bit of trub and hop matter still suspended that wouldn't settle out. Next time I might try capturing some co2 from the blow-off and hook it up when I crash. Though I'm still a tiny bit scared to even try this. Though the trub is excessive and I should just do it.
> 
> The beer smelled just like a fresh bag of hops..!! Yes, finally! Really excited about this.
> 
> I measured sugar on a gm scale per bottle to 2.4vols carb so I wouldn't have to decant into a bottling bucket but there was just too much hop matter going into bottles. A stocking over the bottling wand clogged within split seconds so I did 10 bottles like this and decided to rack to a bucket for the rest. I was careful not to splash and racked underneath the liquid with a stocking on the end of the syphon that caught hop matter, though still doesn't help the trub though
> 
> I shook the hell out of 1x bottle and introduced as much o2 as I could before quickly capping to test against the others later. The rest sat for 10 minutes before banging the bottles to rouse more co2 before capping off.
> 
> I'm hoping the fresh bag of hops aroma will stay around. Will know within 1-2 weeks (though excess trub is known to oxidise too..) because my recent (last 6 months at least) pale ale's have all died off by then. Ever since I bought that darn crash freezer.. the smell today reminded me of my beers pre cold crash and bottling bucket days, so we'll see how she goes and rethink those 2x steps in a few weeks. Stay tuned!



Great experiment (shaking the hell on one bottle). 
There's one thing I don't have clear... Why do you think cold crashing affects the hoppyness? And why do you think not cold crashing but racking to other bucket with a sock will be a better option? Doing this you'll expose ALL your beer to the air.
In fact, being cold prevents the aromas from escaping 

I finished my hoppy apa last week And it also smelled like a freshly open hop container but who knows what will happen in two weeks inside the bottle. Maybe I open one tonight to see how is it doing.. maybe I shouldnt... I can't wait another week it's killing me! :S


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Hez said:


> Great experiment (shaking the hell on one bottle).
> There's one thing I don't have clear... Why do you think cold crashing affects the hoppyness? And why do you think not cold crashing but racking to other bucket with a sock will be a better option? Doing this you'll expose ALL your beer to the air.
> 
> I finished my hoppy apa last week And it also smelled like a freahly open hop container but who knows what will happen in two weeks inside the bottle. Maybe I open one tonight to see how is it doing.. maybe I shouldnt... I can't wait another week it's killing me! :S



I'd have at least downed a 12 pack by now!  very impatient

Cold crashing sucks oxygen in to the fermentation vessel. It's not clear to me (unless someone has a definite explanation) if cooling liquid absorbs this, thus oxidising and ruining the batch

I don't think racking to a bucket with a sock on the end is a good idea. I actualluy didn't plan on doing it. If you read closely you'll see I was bottling straight from primary in the beginning. All in all though I'm glad there's now 3x different experiments from this 1 batch to monitor (straight from fv, racked to bucket and introduced o2 at bottling)


----------



## Hez

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> I'd have at least downed a 12 pack by now!  very impatient
> 
> Cold crashing sucks oxygen in to the fermentation vessel. It's not clear to me (unless someone has a definite explanation) if cooling liquid absorbs this, thus oxidising and ruining the batch
> 
> I don't think racking to a bucket with a sock on the end is a good idea. I actualluy didn't plan on doing it. If you read closely you'll see I was bottling straight from primary in the beginning. All in all though I'm glad there's now 3x different experiments from this 1 batch to monitor (straight from fv, racked to bucket and introduced o2 at bottling)


I suppose we will see what's true and what's bullshit after all!
Bad thing about cold crashing is the carbonation takes longer...


----------



## fdsaasdf

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Cold crashing sucks oxygen in to the fermentation vessel. It's not clear to me (unless someone has a definite explanation) if cooling liquid absorbs this, thus oxidising and ruining the batch




What do you ferment in? Have you considered sealing the container for crashing, or using a a valve or long blow-off tube?


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

I'm fermenting in a sealed plastic vessel with airlock. Not sure what the blow off tube would do to prevent intake of oxygen but I'm interested if I'm missing something, for sure


----------



## fdsaasdf

Could you just bung up your airlock hole when you cold crash?

The suggestion behind a longer blow-off hose is similar to the mechanism some brewers rig up to harvest CO2 - during active fermentation you'll generate CO2 which will push any O2 out of the line. I have used a 2m hose into an open water bottle containing star san in the past, but I've seen other people use collapsible water containers to collect CO2 as they inflate the container and then any 'suck back' is predominantly CO2 to avoid oxidisation.


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Thanks man. I saw a picture of what happened to a plastic fv when someone did this and it really crumpled. I'd also be wary of the seal failing and instead of crumpling, suck oxygen in through a weak seal. Plus, to bung up the hole you will let at least some o2 in whilst doing so

I like the idea of that long line, I guess you'd witness how much is being pressurised back into the line(?) Good idea! Think I'll give this a try. Thanks for sharing


----------



## Hez

I couldn't help myself yesterday and I opened one of my last APA bottles.

I took it from the fermenter fridge where they are now carbonating/conditioning at 19-20º and I put it into the fridge for 2hours and into the freezer for 15-20'.

As they have been carbonating just one week and I did a 24h cold crash (shy cold crash, I know it's suposed to be done from 2 to 7 days) I thought it would be interesting to pick the very last bottled one. 
I bottle directly from the primary, I mean, for me, the one and only single fermenter, I don't rack to a secondary and I don't do bulk priming (I prime every bottle with table sugar one by one like a champ), so the last bottle usually has some trub and I thought this one will be already carbonated by now. 
I was right. I used 2.9g of table sugar per 33cl bottle (3.0vol CO2) and it had a nice pop, good head and lots of bubbles!

This beer has 90%pale, 10% wheat, and ~16g/L of Citra and Amarillo hops in total for only 40IBU, so... a huge amount of hops at 0' and dry hop, in fact I dry hopped with half of them for 7 days and the other half only for 4 days, then I did the 24h cold crash. I mashed at 64-65º and I got OG ~1053 and FG 1006 ! So it should be quite dry. BTW I used several hop socks for all the hop additions to the kettle and I only removed them after chilling (immersion chiller) when I poured everything (non-hop-trub included) into the fermenter and I squeezed the shit out of those socks then inside the fermenter (sanitized hands).. hop puree jejeje All the dry hops were done directly to the fermenter without sock.

Even more details in: https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/biab-american-pale-ale-extra-hoppy.97202/

"OK, whatever... what was it like??!?!?!"
AMAZING! Were you talking about hop-juicy beer? THIS IS THE REAL HOP JUICE! I hope all the other bottles taste like this one...
Maybe it is the combination of low co-humulone / high alpha and beta acid hops or the combination of everything: recipe and procedure, but I think this is my best beer so far and by far.

Things I've done different from my other hoppy beer attempts (some will be relevant, some not):
- No crystal malt
- A little bit of wheat
- Better PH/salts control using gypsum, calcium chloride and the new one for me: lactic acid
- Lower mash temp (64-65º)
- Lower OG
- More sparge water in proportion (I got Higher efficiency than usual, ~78%)
- Use thermapen (better control of the temperature)
- Use multiple hop socks instead of only one big hop spider for the kettle additions
- Quite big 30' hop addition at 80º (cooling naturally down to ~65º after the 30')
- Squeeze the shit out of the hop socks after chilling before pitching the yeast
- Use a fermenter fridge! <-- I think this is key, no fermenter fridge no good beer.
- Fill all bottles, put the cap on top and then cap them starting from the first filled bottle <-- I don't think this improved anything, it felt stupid.

I got exactly what I was after, it is reasonably dry with a tiny residual fruity sweetness but not too much (I've read it can be the result of the amarillo hops in big quantity), crisp, light colour, big stable head refreshing, you can't tell it is 5.8%ABV, it feels less and very very very hoppy without being too bitter, it hasn't this astringent/sharp bitterness of my previous two attempts with just Citra. I love it. I'm going to make another witbier next, but after that one I will probably make this one again and I will try to push the limit of my fermenter (15L, I do "half batches", 10L).

I can't wait to drink them all!!!! But I will try and I'll tell you in a week and a half what is a regular one like (not the last one of the batch).
I'm super happy with the results! Thank you all for your help!


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Good onya Hez, great to hear they're working out well mate!

It sounds like you did most things right, and I'm interested and pleasantly suprised to hear about your 24hr cold crash, too. That's interesting it hasn't seemed to affect your o2 uptake. Sweet

It will be interesting to also watch how the 3.0 or so vols carb plays out. I get bombs at 2.4, but I pasteurise at 73 degrees and it's always after they've reached temp and expanded


----------



## Hez

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Good onya Hez, great to hear they're working out well!l mate!
> 
> It sounds like you did most things right, and I'm interested and pleasantly suprised to hear about your 24hr cold crash, too. That's interesting it hasn't seemed to affect your o2 uptake. Sweet


Yes, i think that has to do with this one being the last bottle and having a little trub. I Guess It had more yeast. Let's see how the normal ones turn out. Can't wait..


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Ok, I'm definitely learning first hand about hops and oxidation. About 10 weeks ago I ordered some assorted American hops (Simcoe, Amarillo etc but really doesn't matter which types they were) in 50gm sachets NOT vacuum sealed. I remember how bright and fresh these all were upon arrival. Definitely no problem from the supplier (apart from packaging)

So I go to take a whiff today and could barely believe how badly these have all degraded. They're all so dead that I've thrown the lot. They smell nothing like how they did or how they should, just a cheesy, old, dead crappy aroma you wouldn't want in any sort of beer

These were not refrigerated, and have probably been bad for a long time prior to today. I don't know how much longer they would have kept in the freezer but out of refrigeration this is my experience

So, I've now witnessed oxidation of hops both in, and out of beer due to oxygen exposure. Whaddya know


----------



## manticle

You mean you kept them at room temp after buying?

Simple lesson learned for sure - treat hops like you would chicken fillets.

Not having a go - learning shit and problem solving is half the fun of brewing.


----------



## mtb

An easy way to re-seal your hop packets after opening is to vacuum seal. This would obviously require that you buy your hops from a sponsor who uses vacuum sealed packets, ie Brewman.
DU99 threw up a link for these Sunbeam vac sealers in the eBay / gumtree finds thread - http://www.2ndsworld.com.au/sunbeam-foodsaver-id-VS4300

It's as simple as open bag, get hops that you need, vacuum out air and re-seal using the machine.


----------



## goatchop41

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> These were not refrigerated, and have probably been bad for a long time prior to today. I don't know how much longer they would have kept in the freezer but out of refrigeration this is my experience



Refrigeration is the bare minimum. Ideal on a home storage level is vacuum seal then store in the freezer.
Living the dream is a nitrogen flush before sealing


----------



## Hez

goatchop41 said:


> Refrigeration is the bare minimum. Ideal on a home storage level is vacuum seal then store in the freezer.
> Living the dream is a nitrogen flush before sealing


Hops in the freezer? I thought the back part of the fridge was good enough


----------



## goatchop41

Hez said:


> Hops in the freezer? I thought the back part of the fridge was good enough



As I said, fridge is the bare minimum if you want a decent life on your hops


----------



## Lethaldog

I always vac seal and freeze, use what I need to on brewday then seal again and at all times in the freezer and I find my hops last as long as it takes me to use them, for some variety’s this could be over a year as I usually buy in 500g -1kg lots, your supposed to lose a little bit over time but sticking to this I’ve never noticed so it’s obviously minimal!


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Well you're gonna laugh, but I fridged a couple tonight (bottled 4 days now) and the flavour and aroma is there so far! Though still green and full of what seems to be diacetly. Like a butter menthol type taste and smell coating the juicy goodness. Also had this with a recent IPA done with 5% Joe White cara malt and am beginning to think it could actually be that.. I'm going to throw that stuff out and just go crystal instead or even single malt. It just seems to be a crappy malt

Will taste in another few days at least to see if it dissapears leaving only magnificent hops and malt behind and keep you posted. It's 100% in the aroma dept so far though otherwise!


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## mtb

If you're getting butter menthol type flavours in your beer, don't throw out what could be perfectly good malt as a result. It's very likely to be diacetyl as you noted. How long did you ferment for?


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

It was on for 9 days at 19 degrees. Then ramped to 22 after 1 week. I'm thinking it will clear up (hoping anyway) my 7.5% IPA used 2x yeast sachets and is still a bit funky 2 months on


----------



## manticle

Sounds very much like diacetyl. Can be overcome if kegging and not the result of infection. Bottle conditioning also gives a small chance that the yeast will reabsorb that flavour so give them time. Diacetyl will mask hops and malt.


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Today's tasting: Had 1x from the bottling bucket experiment and 1x from the straight from fermenter. The bottling bucket one has less trub and already tastes the same as always. Little to no hop aroma  flavour, but not aroma

Specimen straight from fv with more trub is a different beer.. it has more fresh aroma at this stage. Diacetly is somewhat less in both beers than just yesterday already. I can however say that hop aroma is already fading a tiny bit so don't hold out much hope for bottling without co2 at least. Kegging definitely seems the way to go with these. Still shaping up to be a nice beer, I just hope it doesn't fade any more

Stay tuned


----------



## goatchop41

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Today's tasting: Had 1x from the bottling bucket experiment and 1x from the straight from fermenter. The bottling bucket one has less trub and already tastes the same as always. Little to no hop aroma  flavour, but not aroma
> 
> Specimen straight from fv with more trub is a different beer.. it has more fresh aroma at this stage. Diacetly is somewhat less in both beers than just yesterday already. I can however say that hop aroma is already fading a tiny bit so don't hold out much hope for bottling without co2 at least. Kegging definitely seems the way to go with these. Still shaping up to be a nice beer, I just hope it doesn't fade any more
> 
> Stay tuned



You need to taste these blind. Have someone else serve you one sample of one of them and two samples of the other (all at the same time) and see if you can pick the odd one out (they should obviously remember which is which). At least then you're minimising your internal bias


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Update: ok. I've sat down with both beers (the straight from fv and bottling bucket) and they are in fact the same.. Apologies for my bias earlier

Now. I really dislike a couple of things about this brew that's affected the nose.

1. 40 - ebc cara malt. The stuff is just awful. It's so potent that just 4% has somewhat masked a really nice hop aroma. I don't find crystal 60 problematic but this I'm just going to get rid of. Possibly old when I bought it or something but it wrecks anything I put it in, so, bye bye

2. I didn't use any sucrose in this batch. 5% sucrose has been really doing wonders for my pale ales. It tastes so much cleaner and drier than all malt. I know some may disagree here but they may not have actually tried it before. In which case, I recommend it

The big hop aroma is actually still there! But problem is, it's muddled in with the caramalt, making it just a bit too complex for what it's supposed to be

I'll be making another in a few weeks with a simple grain bill and sucrose so, stay tuned. But I think I can confidently say that.. I FINALLY HAVE THAT JUICY HOP AROMA!! 

Thanks to all who contributed. Cheers


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

I'm sorry to be back so soon when apparently the thread had drawn to a close.. but, I've just popped the top off another and omg, it's just blown my mind.. this is definitely the best pale ale I've ever made. Even with my arch nemesis cara malt.

Diacetly has completely dissapeared so it was just secondary fermentation inside the bottle that created it and inturn destroyed once again.

Cara malt has mellowed and is quite bearable. Probably safe to say I'd actually willingly use it again in a smaller amount with maris otter.

Maris Otter shining through clearly and equally with the hop finish as a base

And the hop aroma? I'm sure is on par with the best of them such as Modus, Pirate Life etc! It now actually seems to be coming alive even more with aging rather than dissapearing. Incredible!!

I'm putting this down to

1. Not splashing after the boil into fermenter. I used to splash to oxygenate while hot.

2. Not taking off the airlock to sniff inside fv.. (stupid bastard. But I didn't know any better!)

3. Not inducing oxygen because I didn't cold crash this one

4. Not splashing into a bottling bucket like I usually would

5. Possibly leaving caps loose for 5 mins or so and then tapping each bottle to rouse more co2 before crimping

That's alot of error I was making previously so no wonder at all my beers were always going downhill in the bottle instead of getting better. I can finally see why people say beer gets better with time! You can see why I didn't believe them before (laughs)

I've no idea why, after so much reading I never knew post fermentation oxygen could even cause any problems. I've been brewing for years now and have asked so many people but no one had answers for me (I attribute this to looking in the wrong place. I was in Coopers forum prior to coming here) @manticle knew straight away! So thanks man. You've really helped alot. Cheers mate


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

droid said:


> I've canned and bottled at two micros - both have already had the beer carbed and hopped in tanks. The bottles/cans are purged with co2 then filled and capped (possibly with a little injection of c02 to top it off - can't remember) on a foamy head.
> 
> I met a guy the other day who used to work at Gage Roads in the early years, he said they worked out that a shot of hot water (not sure of temp and amount) was used just before capping the bottles...but again this is carbed beer going into bottles not uncarbed and sugar
> 
> sorry - prolly not that helpful but maybe an insight into at least a couple of micros and how they go about it



Ok. I've got a strange finding. Although nice and hoppy n malty, my brews normally turn out just too flavoursome. I've done an experiment by pouring my latest lager and pale (both only low 4%abv by the way) into a glass and adding different ratios of water.

I've gotta say, it really seems to me that this is a major thing I've been missing in my quest for a great commercial micro brew. Strange as hell, but seemingly true

About 10% straight water makes them both come alive on all fronts. The pale is more vibrant and aromatic, fresher and same with the pilsner. Then I remembered what you said about the shot of straight water/steam

I'm intrigued enough to change my malt bill for next brew to up abv by a few % and watering down 10%

Keep you posted. Nothing at all to do with oxidation I know but a great clue nonetheless


----------



## goatchop41

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> I'm intrigued enough to change my malt bill for next brew to up abv by a few % and watering down 10%



What exactly are you trying to achieve here? It doesn't really make sense


----------



## mtb

goatchop41 said:


> What exactly are you trying to achieve here? It doesn't really make sense


In lieu of the innovator himself - I'm guessing he is under the impression that brewing to a higher OG and watering back down to target OG would make a better beer than one brewed to the target OG without watering down.
ie wort at 1.06 watered down to 1.052 > wort at 1.052 without water addition.


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Yea I've since learned that my recipes have just been a bit too strong in both malt and hops. So have scaled back a bit. Probably why I prefer using a small amount of sucrose to mimmick commercial filtering.

Funnily enough, I bought a Pirate Life pale and was completely suprised that I'd finally nailed it! And no longer really love any of them. Isn't that Murphy's law.. they're just a bit too over the top for me now but completely stoked to know I finally evolved enough to make them!

In another finding, I've just had my last pilsner bottled 20.12.17 and it's now oxidised.. tipped it down the sink. They seemed to be pretty much fine a week prior so if I do keep bottling I'm just going to have to drink them fresh.. I do have a bag of sodium metabisulfite that I'll experiment with on a couple bottles bext batch so still hold some hope at least. I do hear yeast won't survive the journey so I'm either stubborn or ignorant but determined either way

Stay tuned, I guess (sighs)


----------



## goatchop41

mtb said:


> In lieu of the innovator himself - I'm guessing he is under the impression that brewing to a higher OG and watering back down to target OG would make a better beer than one brewed to the target OG without watering down.
> ie wort at 1.06 watered down to 1.052 > wort at 1.052 without water addition.


I cannot in any way see how that would make any difference. In fact, you'd have to feck about with the hopping rate to adjust for effect of watering down on the IBUs...seems unnecessarily difficult for no difference.



Doctormcbrewdle said:


> In another finding, I've just had my last pilsner bottled 20.12.17 and it's now oxidised.. tipped it down the sink.



Sounds like you need to have a good hard look at your bottling process...you've got to be f'ing something up badly in that process to oxidise a beer that quickly after bottling


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Do you think? Well I'm completely open to suggestions

Here it is

Do not splash ANYTHING on the hot side including transfer from kettle to fv. Aerate wort once cooled to under 20 degrees. Ferment without taking a sample or removing airlock, no touching at all other than to dry hop during fermentation if applicable. Cold crash after a couple weeks lagering. Bottle within 2 days by priming each individual bottle with sucrose, transferring by bottling wans without splashing. Leave caps loose 10 minutes, tap bottle to rouse o2 then cap off

I don't know what could possibly be done any better


----------



## goatchop41

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Leave caps loose 10 minutes, tap bottle to rouse o2 then cap off



What is this all about?


----------



## goatchop41

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> transferring by bottling wand without splashing.


Are you filling the bottles to the brim with the wand inside of them? Apologies if you answered this earlier, there's just no way that I'm reading back through 8 pages of posts


----------



## mtb

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Ferment without taking a sample



How were you taking your samples before? Your writing seems to imply you were exposing your beer to oxygen when doing so. Were you opening the lid for some reason?


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Yea, I'm filling to the brim of overflow as I always have. I 'was' taking a hydro sample or two. Along with pulling the airlock off and pushing the lid to 'sniff' the hops.. nooooo! But NOT with the lager. That was tbe first one I watched everything meticulously. Even did low oxygen mash by boiling beforehand

I also had a latest pale straight after. And it's still fantastic! Though also a few weeks behind/ahead of the lager (3 weeks or so in bottle) I'd like to say we'll see how it goes over the next few but that was the last one


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Though, it has also been quite hot this time of year. Bottles probably averaged 30 degrees. Low as 25 but as high as about 45 as well. Maybe this is the entire problem now? Is it worth me investing in a bottle aging/lagering fridge?


----------



## fdsaasdf

Nope just cap them immediately instead of letting them sit on the bench to oxidise, and make sure you leave an inch of headspace in the bottle when you prime.


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Are you sure this is a good idea? Sitting caps purges a small portion of oxygen I thought?

I capped my bottles right away for 15 years prior with bad results too


----------



## mtb

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> I 'was' taking a hydro sample or two. Along with pulling the airlock off and pushing the lid to 'sniff' the hops.. nooooo!


I'm still confused. Why did you stop taking hydro samples? How are you exposing your beer to O2 by drawing it from the tap?


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Oxygen sucks in through airlock to replace lost liquid


----------



## Garfield

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Oxygen sucks in through airlock to replace lost liquid


Air replaces the liquid (say 20% oxygen in air) and a hydro sample draws maybe 200ml? So you've introduced 40ml of O2 into the vessel maybe. I wouldn't expect any issues from that. 

You're fear of oxygen (while appropriate in some cases) seems disproportionate to the risks here. I bench cap and pull hydro samples regularly and have never spoilt a batch due to oxidation. 

Are you certain you've oxidised bottles? Could it be any other off flavour that you've misidentified? Could you describe in more details (apologies if you have already). 

I respect your dedication but a little concerned it's a touch misguided on this occasion.

Garf


----------



## CJW

Regarding hydro samples and O2 ingress...

Maybe try using a blow off tube so that the no air is sucked into the fermenter. I do this, the starsan is sucked a few centimeters back up the tube but not into the fermenter, then as fermentation continues and more CO2 is created it moves back down and starts bubbling again as normal.

Also, why not use a refractometer to take intermediate readings when waiting for the readings to stabilise? You can always do a final hydro reading, but a refrac requires only a few good drops.


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Well, in my hop forward beer the hops completely dissappear within days and my pilsners are fresh abd really great to start with, but turn bad later on.

The taste is hard to describe but I'll do my best. The freshness is completely lost. It's no longer crisp. And there is a strange sherry like flavour attached to the malt. The original greatness just goes down the drain. The pale ale's don't seem to suffer from the malt problems, just hop aroma mainly and hops get muddled/muted, only the pilsners suffer the malt tasting bad


----------



## Tony121

Have you had anyone else try your beer, such as other brewers or the LHBS staff? They may assist with pin pointing if it is oxidisation or something else as it seems you have an ongoing problem even after you changed your process.


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

I haven't. But what else could it possibly be? Other than heat


----------



## Tony121

Hard to diagnose over the internet. You’ve got numerous threads running in similar veins with good advice which haven’t seemed to fix what you are tasting, so first hand taste may give a better assessment.

I’m no expert so take it or leave it.


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

It doesn't take a genius to know it's probably the heat. Unpasteurized beer at 40 degrees isn't exactly a great recipe for success.


----------



## Tony121

Alright, will leave you to it then.


----------



## fdsaasdf

Tony121 said:


> Alright, will leave you to it then.


+1


----------



## Dan Pratt

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> It doesn't take a genius to know it's probably the heat. Unpasteurized beer at 40 degrees isn't exactly a great recipe for success.



the thread just ended.


----------



## S.E

India pale Ale was unpasteurized beer shipped to India often at 40 degrees and that was a recipe for success.


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

That's what they say but how do you know it was still perfectly fresh? They were doing it to attempt help of heat and oxidation staling in the first place. Maybe why my hoppy ales are holding up now after low oxygen brewing

None of us were there to know for sure


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Anyone know of a India lager I can try? Laughs


----------



## MHB

I'm not a fan of the family - particularly NEPA, but getting the "Juicy" character.
Use truly obscene amounts of hops late
Exclude Oxygen as much as possible
Use very low mineral water (0/low Carbonate/Bicarbonate)
Get your Calcium from something other than Sulphate
Big yeast pitch, good temperature control, fast ferment 3-4 days
Drink the beer fast (the old "from grain to brain in 14 days")
Tip out anything left after a couple of weeks because it will be going down hill so fast it will be approaching undrinkable, if it wasn't at the start!
Mark


----------



## Mardoo

@MHB wondering what you think. There’s often a throat burn I see in NEIPA’s or heavily late-hopped beers. My guess at the moment is that it comes from using hops higher up on the cohumulone % scale. Whaddaya think?


----------



## GalBrew

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Anyone know of a India lager I can try? Laughs



There are plenty around. I personally have never had one that I thought was an improvement on IPA (generally speaking).


----------



## Dan Pratt

Mardoo said:


> @MHB wondering what you think. There’s often a throat burn I see in NEIPA’s or heavily late-hopped beers. My guess at the moment is that it comes from using hops higher up on the cohumulone % scale. Whaddaya think?



I get that throat feel from the style which I think is from a combination of the higher Chloride (200ppm) combined with the heavy late hop oils retained in the beer? MHB may have a better idea of that. 

It does seem like a biting flavour from the ones I have made and tried from commercial batches they all have that theme.


----------



## MHB

Mardoo said:


> @MHB wondering what you think. There’s often a throat burn I see in NEIPA’s or heavily late-hopped beers. My guess at the moment is that it comes from using hops higher up on the cohumulone % scale. Whaddaya think?


Mostly its just the gross amount of hop oils, turpins (clue in the name), polyphenols and other hop products that goes into solution.
Remember that a lot of these beers are dry hopped later in the ferment so there is a fair amount of alcohol there to dissolve some fractions.
Personally I think its a fad and wont last in any meaningful way - most of the beers are undrinkable (well maybe just a half, but couldn't go back for a second), they are ridiculously expensive to make and don't store or ship well. Not a formula for commercial success.
Mark

Added Polyphenols


----------



## Droopy Brew

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Well, in my hop forward beer the hops completely dissappear within days and my pilsners are fresh abd really great to start with, but turn bad later on.
> 
> The taste is hard to describe but I'll do my best. The freshness is completely lost. It's no longer crisp. And there is a strange sherry like flavour attached to the malt. The original greatness just goes down the drain. The pale ale's don't seem to suffer from the malt problems, just hop aroma mainly and hops get muddled/muted, only the pilsners suffer the malt tasting bad




Your problem isn't oxidation it is secondary fermentation at high temperatures.

Don't take my word for it but, next batch bottle as normal and put the bulk of them in temp control at about 18-20C (if you only put a few in temp control for comparison you will kick yourself when you taste the difference) . Leave a few out at ambient as you normally would.

Do a side by side comparison after a few weeks and you will see what I mean.

After a couple of weeks to carb up, keep your bottles either in the fridge/keezer or at least at cellar temps.
Let us know your results.


----------



## Droopy Brew

S.E said:


> India pale Ale was unpasteurized beer shipped to India often at 40 degrees and that was a recipe for success.



There is some conjecture about that story but regardless, I bet those beers weren't great.


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Will do Droop. Give us a month. Just bottled one today

Cheers!


----------



## S.E

Droopy Brew said:


> There is some conjecture about that story but regardless, I bet those beers weren't great.



Conjecture about what story?


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

S.E said:


> Conjecture about what story?



I believe he's referring to the legend of IPA. Legend has it that it was first made to last the long, hot journey all the way from England to India if you haven't heard. Modern day breweries like Pirate Life treat their beer like milk though because they know heat spoils the product rather quickly

How do I know this? Well I was just chatting with Pirate about this and they've said to me: There's no way I'd drink your beer. Take from that way you will


----------



## Droopy Brew

S.E said:


> Conjecture about what story?


As DrMcB just said, the origin of the IPA is disputed in many circles. Anyway that's a discussion for another thread.


----------



## S.E

Droopy Brew said:


> As DrMcB just said, the origin of the IPA is disputed in many circles. Anyway that's a discussion for another thread.



IPA stands for India Pale Ale. It was indeed brewed to survive the long hot journey to India.

This fact was questioned in another thread a few weeks ago and all the evidence posted in it confirmed this.

The confusion seemed to stem from another obvious fact, that it wasn’t the first time strong hoppy ales had been brewed. It wasn’t a new invention.


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Thought I'd post an article by John Palmer I'm reading since it's so fitting. Hoping it's legible. Cheers!


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Second page here


----------



## Hez

My ridiculously hopped apa with just pale and wheat (no crystal) was amazing one week after bottling and now, one month later has become almost an amber ale with very little hop aroma...

Must be oxidation.
I don't see myself redoing the experiment in the near future... I have plenty of pirate life cans nearby...

Ps I bottle conditioned in the fermenter fridge at 19℃ , I did everything as told and I used Amarillo and citra (low cohumulone)


----------



## Hez

I've only had this issue with the dry hopped beers by the way


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Hez said:


> My ridiculously hopped apa with just pale and wheat (no crystal) was amazing one week after bottling and now, one month later has become almost an amber ale with very little hop aroma...
> 
> Must be oxidation.
> I don't see myself redoing the experiment in the near future... I have plenty of pirate life cans nearby...



Now hold on a minute man. You're so very close, don't give up now! Go back and read through or post your process here and we'll see if we can critique it. My last pale was Pirate to a T and seemed to get even hoppier with time for once!

My tips:

1. Use only FRESH hops. If they smell a little bit old that's exactly what you're going to end up with. What goes in, also comes out.

2. Use Mangrove Jacks M44 yeast. This has been a real improvement over US05 for me. It's so much nicer. I'm willing to firego tge long lag times for the end result

3. Use mostly late hops

4. Dry hop at around 5g p/litre

5. Dry hop during primary fermentation to allow the hops to stir through and avoid oxidation

6. Don't splash hot wort

7. Aerate well once cold

8. Don't splash at bottling

9. Allow caps to sit loose for a while before capping off

10. Store bottles cool

You can do this man


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Hez said:


> I've only had this issue with the dry hopped beers by the way



Are you dry hopping during active fermentation? And are you cold crashing?


----------



## Hez

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Now hold on a minute man. You're so very close, don't give up now! Go back and read through or post your process here and we'll see if we can critique it. My last pale was Pirate to a T and seemed to get even hoppier with time for once!
> 
> My tips:
> 
> 1. Use only FRESH hops. If tgey smell a little bit old that's exactly what you're going to ebd up with. What goes in comes out.
> 
> 2. Use Mangrove Jacks M44 yeast. This has been a real improvement over US05 for me. It's so much nicer. I'm willing to firego tge long lag times for the end result
> 
> 3. Use mostly late hops
> 
> 4. Dry hop at around 5g p/litre
> 
> 5. Dry hop during primary fermentation to allow the hops to stir through and avoid oxidation
> 
> 6. Don't splash hot wort
> 
> 7. Aerate well once cold
> 
> 8. Don't splash at bottling
> 
> 9. Allow caps to sit loose for a while before capping off
> 
> You can do this man



The only things I didn't do as you said were :
-i used us5
-I did two dry hops, one after 4 days and a second one after 7 (for 3 days more)
Next time I will dry hop after 4 days only for 6 days... And I'll drink it all after one week of bottle condition. I will make the apa party ! Jejeje


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Did you also cold crash?

Opening the lid on a fermenter after primary lets alot of carbon dioxide out and alot of oxygen in. Just how much is taken up by the liquid isn't clearly known but the evidence also clearly points to oxidation or at least a beer not as aromatic as it could have been

How do I know this? Wellllll


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Ps, I've been dry hopping day two or three with the best results I've ever had. No reason to change anytime soon unless there's good reason not to


----------



## Hez

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Did you also cold crash?
> 
> Opening the lid on a fermenter after primary lets alot of carbon dioxide out and alot of oxygen in. Just how much is taken up by the liquid isn't clearly known but the evidence also clearly points to oxidation or at least a beer not as aromatic as it could have been
> 
> How do I know this? Wellllll


Yes , I cold crash to 3℃ for only 24h, just to help the major part of the sediments to settle down , I didn't do a full cold crash.
I put all the details in another post.


----------



## Hez

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Ps, I've been dry hopping day two or three with the best results I've ever had. No reason to change anytime soon unless there's good reason not to


Day 2 seems too soon to me, but I will give a try to the day 3 dry hop for 5-6 days..


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

I believe cooling liquid absorbs more oxygen. Don't quote me on this and hopefully someone can either confirm or dismiss but cooling beer helps bottled products absorb carbonation from the headspace so can't see this being any different

Cold crashing also has a second pitfall, being shrinkage pulls more oxygen through the airlock.

All I know is that since watching these steps I don't seem to have a problem anymore


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Hez said:


> Day 2 seems too soon to me, but I will give a try to the day 3 dry hop for 5-6 days..



Yes it 'seems' too soon, I agree. But it works well for me. I recommend trying it for yourself


----------



## Hez

Marquess of Minga said:


> Amarillo
> Cascade
> Bravo is the best.
> 
> Ahtanum
> Hallertauer
> Bobek sucks as a cimbo


Love amarillo

(8)Chupame la minga dominga que vengo de Franciaaaa! Chupame la minga dominga que llevo sustanciaaaa!(8)


----------



## goatchop41

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> 9. Allow caps to sit loose for a while before capping off



Where did this idea come from? It doesn't make any sense. If anything, you'll just get more O2 ingress under the loose cap. There isn't enough dissolved CO2 in the beer that you can knock out to displace the O2 in the small headspace.
Doing that isn't adding anything, and is possibly making things worse...


----------



## Rocker1986

Cold crashed every batch I've done for the last 5 years and never had any oxidation problems or beers losing massive amounts of hop aroma and flavor in very short periods of time. They might drop off a little by the time I get to the last few glasses of a batch, but otherwise the beers are fine. What the hell are you guys doing? I honestly don't believe cold crashing causes oxidised beer, maybe I'm wrong and I'd be happy to be corrected with some scientific data, but if it does increase the O2 level in the beer, it's never affected my beers, at least not to my palate. They've all been perfectly fine.


----------



## Garfield

Rocker1986 said:


> Cold crashed every batch I've done for the last 5 years and never had any oxidation problems or beers losing massive amounts of hop aroma and flavor in very short periods of time. They might drop off a little by the time I get to the last few glasses of a batch, but otherwise the beers are fine. What the hell are you guys doing? I honestly don't believe cold crashing causes oxidised beer, maybe I'm wrong and I'd be happy to be corrected with some scientific data, but if it does increase the O2 level in the beer, it's never affected my beers, at least not to my palate. They've all been perfectly fine.


+1


----------



## Gloveski

+2


----------



## slcmorro

5. Dry hop during primary fermentation to allow the hops to stir through and avoid oxidation

To clarify - do this after the bulk of fermentation is complete, i.e - 75% of the way. Too early, and you'll risk a super hazy beer by proteins and hop oils (think NEIPA) binding. Not only that, but any aroma added to the beer is likely to be blown off by rigorous co2 production.


----------



## fdsaasdf

slcmorro said:


> 5. Dry hop during primary fermentation to allow the hops to stir through and avoid oxidation
> To clarify - do this after the bulk of fermentation is complete, i.e - 75% of the way. Too early, and you'll risk a super hazy beer by proteins and hop oils (think NEIPA) binding.


While haziness may occur it won't be permanent or necessarily even long-term. A few days crashing drops out the sediment in my experience. I've dropped 8g/L in at the start of primary and the beer was clearing too much to be called a NEIPA within a fortnight (to my bemusement as I was planning to enter it as a NEIPA in a comp).



slcmorro said:


> Not only that, but any aroma added to the beer is likely to be blown off by rigorous co2 production.


My discussions with pro brewers and research at home does not support this theory. My last XPA can fill a room with piney citrus aromas, and the only 2 hop additions it received were 5g/L at flameout and at yeast pitch.


----------



## goatchop41

slcmorro said:


> Not only that, but any aroma added to the beer is likely to be blown off by rigorous co2 production.





fdsaasdf said:


> My discussions with pro brewers and research at home does not support this theory. My last XPA can fill a room with piney citrus aromas, and the only 2 hop additions it received were 5g/L at flameout and at yeast pitch.



I'm with you here @fdsaasdf. Anecdotally, I've done a beer that was only dry hopped at the first signs of fermentation. It had quite a persistant aroma from the galaxy that didn't even die down after a month and a half in the keg


----------



## Rocker1986

A few days crashing drops out sediment, but in my experience haze takes a lot longer to drop out on its own, and I wouldn't really class it as sediment. 

I usually dry hop when I cold crash a batch or a couple of days before, seems to work fine.


----------



## koshari

goatchop41 said:


> I'm with you here @fdsaasdf. Anecdotally, I've done a beer that was only dry hopped at the first signs of fermentation. It had quite a persistant aroma from the galaxy that didn't even die down after a month and a half in the keg


this is consistent with my findings, having said that iam only going on about 3 months experience, at the moment iam inclined to dryhop for the entire primary process, then crash cool and keg, i also found placing the hop pellets in multiple bags increases the flavour, i think i will try without bags next time?


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## Dan Pratt

^ ^ ^ I've just done a NEIPA and can attest to the facts that aromatic outcomes from adding hops to ferment during high krausen ~ 48hrs in, results in excellent aroma for the beer. 

I will be definately using this technique for any hop forward beer.


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## goatchop41

koshari said:


> this is consistent with my findings, having said that iam only going on about 3 months experience, at the moment iam inclined to dryhop for the entire primary process, then crash cool and keg, i also found placing the hop pellets in multiple bags increases the flavour, i think i will try without bags next time?



Yeah, piss the bags off. They only restrict distribution of hop oils, and add another avenue for contamination


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## markp

Dan Pratt said:


> ^ ^ ^ I've just done a NEIPA and can attest to the facts that aromatic outcomes from adding hops to ferment during high krausen ~ 48hrs in, results in excellent aroma for the beer.
> 
> I will be definately using this technique for any hop forward beer.



Hey dan
Did you cold crash that neipa? Don’t want to loose the murkiness that is characteristic of this style. 
Cheers
Nark


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## Coodgee

markp said:


> Hey dan
> Did you cold crash that neipa? Don’t want to loose the murkiness that is characteristic of this style.
> Cheers
> Nark



no offence but I'm just going to roll my eyes right now... kids these days...


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## koshari

darn it you blokes, i really need to get a dark bitter english ale in to satisfy my beer engine supply but with all these different methods of dry hopping to try i just wanna try a NEIPA style now.


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## SmallFry

koshari said:


> darn it you blokes, i really need to get a dark bitter english ale in to satisfy my beer engine supply but with all these different methods of dry hopping to try i just wanna try a NEIPA style now.


I can't think of any worse style than NEIPA to go through a beer engine. Me, I love my beer engine.


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## DU99

hop hash would that give a juicy type flavour..think of getting some of those isohops


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## Dan Pratt

markp said:


> Hey dan
> Did you cold crash that neipa? Don’t want to loose the murkiness that is characteristic of this style.
> Cheers
> Nark


Just drop the temp from 22c down to 16c before packaging. Still very cloudy.


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## markp

Coodgee said:


> no offence but I'm just going to roll my eyes right now... kids these days...



Wtf, being a knob gets you no votes. We all start somewhere and just because I have less knowledge than you shouldn’t mean you have to be a smart ass. I’ll bet you started as a rookie dumbo too. If you have nothing constructive to say shut the **** up. 
Enough said by me.


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## koshari

SmallFry said:


> I can't think of any worse style than NEIPA to go through a beer engine. Me, I love my beer engine.


I agree. What i meant was what goes into the fermenter next. By the way love your hunting scene handle.


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## Dan Pratt

markp said:


> Wtf, being a knob gets you no votes. We all start somewhere and just because I have less knowledge than you shouldn’t mean you have to be a smart ass. I’ll bet you started as a rookie dumbo too. If you have nothing constructive to say shut the **** up.
> Enough said by me.



geez lighten up @markp. 

@Coodgee was more likley having a crack at me for making a NEIPA and only slightly at you for using the word murkiness when describing a beer. 

if you like using Munich malt you and Coodgee will be besties.


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## goatchop41

markp said:


> Hey dan
> Did you cold crash that neipa? Don’t want to loose the murkiness that is characteristic of this style.
> Cheers
> Nark



If you lose the haze in your NEIPA from cold crashing, then you're getting the haze from the wrong things. It shouldn't be yeast haze, etc. that will drop out with crashing. A cold crash is good for them to drop all of that hop matter from the massive dry hops out of suspension.
Having experienced a repeatedly clogged poppet from a non-cold crashed one, I'll never repeat the mistake again

P.S. To be pedantic, you want it to be hazy, not murky! Hazy can still have a lovely brilliant colour, murkiness just makes it look like dam water


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## Coodgee

markp said:


> Wtf, being a knob gets you no votes. We all start somewhere and just because I have less knowledge than you shouldn’t mean you have to be a smart ass. I’ll bet you started as a rookie dumbo too. If you have nothing constructive to say shut the **** up.
> Enough said by me.



not meant to be a dig at you mate. Just a general crack at the "haze craze" that I like to poke fun at.


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## markp

Coodgee said:


> not meant to be a dig at you mate. Just a general crack at the "haze craze" that I like to poke fun at.



No probs, like I said I’m a newbie here and still have a lot to learn about all grain, a constructive answer would have been appreciated. 
Cheers
Mark


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## Dan Pratt

goatchop41 said:


> Having experienced a repeatedly clogged poppet from a non-cold crashed one, I'll never repeat the mistake again
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After getting the same issue a few times, I now remove the poppets from each end and the wort and any bits of hops will get through without blocking.
Click to expand...


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## Coodgee

you can fill a fully air-purged keg by removing the poppet and fitting a silicon hose directly over the post and down the dip tube. that is what I like to do now.


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## Lionman

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> a butter menthol type taste and smell



Sounds like a fermentation issue to me.

If you're temp controlling your fermentation then bump the temp up to around 20c for a few days once you hit FG. It will help the yeast clean up the diacetyl quicker.


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## Grogler

So I've seen many replies regarding dry hopping schedules and I've got a NEIPA in the fridge that's been krausen dry-hoped and had just about hit FG at 22C. 

Going to put the final dry hop charge in (Citra, mosaic, azacca) now and wondering about a consensus or recommendations regarding *how*. 

IE should I hop sock @22C 3 days
Loose hop @22C
Cold crash hop sock @ 4C 3 days
Loose hop @4C
Cold crash rack to keg and keg hop @4C through conditioning

Anyone done a comparison?


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## Dan Pratt

^ just throw them in loose, let them expand and get full contact. Give the fermenter a bump every hour to get them into suspension. After 2 days of bumping they will have fallen out of suspension, then cold crash to 4c for packaging.


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