# Sour Berliner Weisse



## Weizguy (14/5/06)

:excl: I'm making a Berliner weisse for the NSW Xmas in July case. That should be no surprise to anyone on this forum.

Last time I did a small sour mash and added it to the main mash. On this occasion, I have made a lacto starter.

After researching whether I should aerate at pitching of the lacto (you *should* because it's an aerobic bacteria), my question is:

When would you pitch the lacto, in relation to the yeast?

BYO's recipe calls for a 1 litre yeast culutre, with the lacto mixed in to the starter on brew day.

I have found a reference, but can't find it at the moment, that recommends pitching the lacto 4 hours before the yeast. The yeast will produce alcohol which will create an environment in which the lacto cannot do it's business, so U need to get the sourness early.

I'll state here that I have already pitched my 500ml of lacto culture at about 6:15 tonight (and didn't the missus look funny after I gave a her a sample from the culture - in a nip glass - just to sniff, then she tasted it and screwed up her nose...yep, it's sour). She looked like this :huh: ...all puckered-up. I will pitch my 1 litre German Ale culture at about 10:15 tonight. :beer: 

Before I get responses with info that I already have, I'll state two things:

*1/ *I'm aware that I cannot use the fermentor for anything other than a sour beer in the future (now that I've pitched it with a lacto culture) due to persistent infection;

*2/ *I'm also on top of the need to pitch yeast in a 4-6:1 ratio to the lacto.

Any suggestions and feedback that will help me and other brewers when making a soured ale in future would be greatly apreciated.

*Please note* that the yeast from the bottles of this beer will be unsuitable for culture of anything other than a lacto/German ale blend, unless U wanna get microbiological, and sort them out!

Bring on the advice. Testify!

soured Seth out


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## Malnourished (15/5/06)

Well I've never done a Berliner Weisse, but I definitely intend on doing one at some point. Schultheiss BW is one of my all-time favourite beers, though Berliner Kindl's version never did all that much for me.

For some reason the p-Lambic Digest archives are down at the moment, but there has been a wealth of discussion of Berliner Weisse there. One big conclusion that the list has come to is that Berliner Weisse, Lambic and Flemish red ales are all very similar microbiologically speaking, and that the end result is manipulated more by wort production and ageing. I find this rather fascinating... I think Wild Brews has a bit about it too. I wouldn't be surprised at all if there was Brettanomyces in Schultheiss BW, though it's very subtle - presumably because there's so little for it to feed on.

There's an interesting discussion on Berliner Weisse here too, and Marc Sedam made some very detailed posts to the HBD a few years back too. I think the moral of the story is that there are many ways to skin this particular cat. I'd imagine that the timing of pitching each of the cultures depends quite a bit on exactly how much of each you are pitching and the temperature at which you are fermenting.


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## warrenlw63 (15/5/06)

Weiz.

Slightly OT but these may be of some help to you. They're texts pertaining to Rodenbach's techniques. You're looking at about 10mb total in downloads (3 files). They're PDFs in WinRAR zip.  

Acid Ales Papers

Warren -


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## Asher (15/5/06)

Here are the brewing notes for my Berliner Weisse

I take it Weiz your using a commercial lactic culture? I just use grain that's added at a raised temp. I believe this technique helps to kill of some of the bad smelling lacto strains that don't survive at the initial innoculation temp....

Its for a 40 lite batch BTW

- Set aside 250g of crushed barley
- Single infusion mash @ 68 for 2 hours with L/G ratiio of 4:1
- Sparge to kettle that has 2 plugs of hallertau broken up in it.
- NO BOIL - On completion of sparge heat kettle to 95 deg, then flame out.
- CFC to fermentors as normal
- Remove 4 litres to a pot. heat up to 56deg and seed with crushed barley set aside earlier. conduct lactic ferment with this for around 3 days @ 30 deg or untill a Ph of 3 is reached. then filter into fermentor

Makes a great summer light beer. I love it in a stein with a couple of thick slices of orange in it.....

Asher for now


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## Weizguy (15/5/06)

Asher said:


> I take it Weiz your using a commercial lactic culture? I just use grain that's added at a raised temp. I believe this technique helps to kill of some of the bad smelling lacto strains that don't survive at the initial innoculation temp....
> 
> [post="126472"][/post]​


Asher,

Nup,I did not use a commercial lacto culture. I made the lacto culture according to the appendix in "Brewing Euro beers..." by Wheeler & Protz.
Uncrushed grain was tossed into a cooled mini-mini-mash base. The lacto on the outside of the uncrushed malt eat the extracted sugars. After a few souring days in the thermos flask, I decanted the sour mash from the spent grain and added some boiled and cooled DME solution. This made up a 500 ml culture, which I pitched into the Berliner wort last night.

Thanks for the tips, ppl!
Will investigate links when I get home.

Seth :lol:


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## Asher (15/5/06)

This quote is from a post on craftbrewers from Mike Heydenrych who's makes an award winnng weisse..



> Charlie Papazian describes this process in the appendix of his book, but
> Gerg Noonan describes why it works so well. The desired lactobacillus
> is thermophilic, so the high temperature acts as a natural selection.
> It kills off the lactobacillus, too, but the tougher desirable critters remain to
> fight another day.



Just wanted to highlight the point that if making your own lactic culture the inoculation temp is important... I used 56deg as did Mike

Asher for now


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## Mr Bond (15/5/06)

MMMMM.....................

Now I've got another wheaty to think about doing.

Are there any commercial examples that anyone knows of that are imported into oz as a sampler/ control,as a target to aim for,cos I've never tasted one b4?


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## Weizguy (15/5/06)

Brauluver,

U might not want to do this one too soon. It smells like a pile of rotten wheat. So I was told by a wheat farmer.

Asher,

Thanks for the heads-up. The grain in my culture was added at 50C. The culture certainly tasted sour but very clean. Will try 56C next time.
So, have a created a poor-flavoured culture or is it worse than that?

This thread tells me that there is no hard/fast rule toget the right flavours. So I'll try my method and report.

BTW, the ferment is doing OK. At 16C, it has thrown a small krauesen, and is actively bubbling through the airlock in the dungeon fridge - used for insulation, not cooling.

Big ups to all.
Poppa Sethule


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## Mr Bond (28/5/06)

Any updates Seth...?


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## Weizguy (28/5/06)

OK. So I've posted updates re this beer on the NSW Xuly case thread and now it's time to come home.
Time for an update here, I s'pose.

The Berliner is still in the fridge (to minimise temp variation) at about 16C.

It's not as sour as I hoped, as of last week. I might have another taste and post again soon. I should've racked already and chilled to say G'night to the lacto activity.
Don't worry. wheat fans, it'll be ready by the time of the case pickup, if I have anything to say about it. OI!!!

I may have some leftover bottles, and a tax cheque arond then, so if any die-hard wheat lovers out there wanna taste. I'll take the first few contacts, at least.

I'm gonna take it to my BJCP session and get some feedback. Howzat for good feedback. I respect the honest opinion of all the BJCP participants. Maybe someone else's beer from the case might make it to a BJCP tasting, too. So beware all casies (?)!  

This beer reminds me a little of the Redoak Berliner. I like mine to be more sour than that.

Next time, I'll do another sour mash or leave it longer in primary with the lacto before I pitch the ale yeast. That'll help customise it for me/ my taste.

Who else am I brewing for, but me? Ah, that's right. I remember now...about 27 other AHBers, who are hoping for a tasty beer (bonus ale or otherwise).

...either that, or it's the Flanders/Irish Red - lambic special. :lol: 

Cap'n Seth (aaarrrr) 

(*Edit) P.S. In order to save another post, I'll edit this one.
If the yeast is finished, I might give the lacto another go at higher temp and see if they have anything left. Sound OK?


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## NRB (29/5/06)

If you want some Lactic acid to add for an increased sourness, let me know Seth. I've got 1L of 80% lactic acid and can give you a little if you wish.


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## Weizguy (29/5/06)

Thanks NRB. Very generous.

I'll let this one ride, but I'll keep your offer in mind.

Why do you have that much lactic acid? I've heard that it takes a while to integrate into the beer and can be quite rough for some time. Have U tried it in a beer?

Beerz
Seth out


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## Weizguy (29/5/06)

** Update: Dateline - 29/5/2006

Temp is down to 14, which is still OK for the German ale yeast. The gravity is now down to a temp-corrected 1.006. It tastes wheaty and dry like a light wheat beer. Nowhere near sour enough. The yeast prob won't eat much more, at already over 80% attenuation, so it's time 2 warm the beer and see if I can wake up the lactobacilli.

Seth out


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## NRB (30/5/06)

Weizguy said:


> Why do you have that much lactic acid? I've heard that it takes a while to integrate into the beer and can be quite rough for some time. Have U tried it in a beer?



I picked it up from my brewclub for the cost of an empty container. I have no experience using it yet, but will play around with it late this year or early next year.


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## Weizguy (8/6/06)

7th May update.

The beer is now continuing to bubble away on a heat mat @ about 24C (in the house).

The pH, tested with a just-calibrated (albeit 7.01 pH) electronic meter, is 4.4.
Still not sour enough for me. :huh: 

May think about adding some lactic which I just obtained at my lhbs. Apparently looking for about 3.4.
Will do calcs tomorrow night re amount to add. Bonus is that it's a 25 litre batch and therefore a small addition will not have as large an effect on pH, as it would in a small batch.

I promise not to add any acid before I do the calcs.

Seth out


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## Stuster (8/6/06)

Weizguy said:


> 7th May update.
> 
> The beer is now continuing to bubble away on a heat mat @ about 24C (in the house).
> 
> ...



You could also just trial adding the acid to a small sample until right to taste, and then scale it up.  

Looking forward to the sourness (now with no added cheese  )


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## Kai (29/8/06)

_*bump*_

How's it turning out, Seth?


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## Weizguy (29/8/06)

Kai,

It's great! Had some excellent feedback already.

See the NSW Xmas in July thread from here and the rest of the page.

The beer is not as sour as the previous one with the sour mash, butseems to be well balanced and very drinkable.
I will brew this one again. :beer: 

Beerz 
Seth out


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## Gough (29/8/06)

Weizguy said:


> Kai,
> 
> It's great! Had some excellent feedback already.
> 
> ...



I can vouch for it too Kai. Very light, balanced and refreshing. Easy drinking, dare I say quaffing style that would be ideal on a red hot late summer arvo. Much more approachable than a couple of earlier versions of Seth's that I tried. Well brewed mate  

Shawn.


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## Kai (29/8/06)

Thanks for the updates, a berliner weisse is definitely on my to brew list but I think I will take the simple route and have a lactic acid addition.


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## Thommo (29/8/06)

I can vouch for this one too.

Quite drinkable for an infected beer.  

(Just don't tell the beer judges).

Can't wait to see what Seth puts into the Xmas 06 Case.

Don't forget to keep us updated with your progress Kai.

Cheers,
Thommo.


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## warrenlw63 (30/8/06)

If you have the patience to research back through Craftbrewer Radio. Graham Sanders gives out a website for a place that sells various lacto/sour cultures for the cheese industry.

By all accounts they're many and varied. 

Warren -


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## Borret (30/8/06)

Don't mention the cheese.... I did it once....and...

I would love to have tried this incarnation of the beer. Glad it came together for you Seth.

Brent


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## Kai (30/8/06)

http://www.cheeselinks.com.au/ sell cultures. I'm reluctant to introduce anything like that in my brewery though, I figure the simple approach is the best the first time around.


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## tangent (30/8/06)

am i right in remembering moshers radical brewing - something about the culture slowly taking over the entire beer until it's undrinkable? (maybe not the best idea for a storage beer?) and that the results are good from sour malt (like weyermann acidulated) as well as lactic acid. I've only tried the acidulated malt - feed this innocent looking malt to strangers and look at their faces 
It's pretty freaky stuff.


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## Weizguy (30/8/06)

tangent,

I may need to do some more research, but I thought the lacto bugs go to sleep or even die as the alc % goes up.
This means that a low alc beer could become more and more sour with time (and maybe bottle-bombs too?), but a beer that has had a decent brew yeast in it will have enough alcohol to sort out the bacteria.

Maybe there are different strains of _lactobacilli_ that are more or less affected by alcohol, and stay alive at higher alcohol levels. Any lacto experts with concrete advice and links? Pls post

Seth


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## Kai (30/8/06)

I was under the impression that they continue to sour over time too. I know I've had at least one lambic that was impressively sour


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## Anachi (30/8/06)

Would write more, but i am off to bed. The culture that is resposible for the majority of lactic acid production in lambic's is slightly different to your average lactobacili. Its called Pediococcus, it will produce very high levels of lactic acid (up to %2 i think) but it can take a few years for it to reach those levels. Not only is it alcohol tollerant but they strain doesn't produce CO2 during its lactic production (unlike its lacto counterparts). Oxidation does it in though it normally dosen't start it crux of its fermentations till 6 (can't remember) months in spontanious fermentation. Certain cultures of this can be found on corn. 

I was thinking of trying a few things with in at some point in the future. Mainly was redoing a sour mash of sorts (it also survives up to about 60deg) with corn instead of wheat to provide the culture, and maybe adding the culture at bottling. That or buy some and try something similar. 

There is a bit of info on the cultures in Wildbrews, i found it a good starting point.


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## Kai (23/12/06)

_*bump*_

One of these babies is definitely on the cards sometime in the new year. Since I'm setting aside a fermenter and a cube for lambics, I think I will go the lactic culture route. I might even have some cheese lactic cultures stashed in my fridge somewhere.

Alternatively, do any of the Adelaideans here know a convenient place to purchase food grade lactic acid? I might consider a _(shhh)_ bulk buy if anyone else is keen on some.


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## Aaron (23/12/06)

Kai said:


> _*bump*_
> 
> One of these babies is definitely on the cards sometime in the new year. Since I'm setting aside a fermenter and a cube for lambics, I think I will go the lactic culture route. I might even have some cheese lactic cultures stashed in my fridge somewhere.
> 
> Alternatively, do any of the Adelaideans here know a convenient place to purchase food grade lactic acid? I might consider a _(shhh)_ bulk buy if anyone else is keen on some.


I may be able to get my hands on some at a very good price. Give me a couple of days. How much do you need to do a batch?


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## Kai (23/12/06)

No idea, but I would happily take a litre or more. Never know when it'll come in useful.


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## MHB (23/12/06)

Oh bugger there you go mentioning the war.

You want to add lactic acid to a beer? Why not grow your own.

Dont worry Seth is on the way home after an extended trip to the pub, I am sure he will see this thread and have a few things to contribute.
You dont have to buy Lactic Acid, malt comes with its own supply, just bio acidify - you will get a better balanced beer
MHB


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## Kai (23/12/06)

I may try that too at some point. However, if I have the cultures sitting in my fridge then I may as well use them. I still want to try the lactic acid route as it is definitely the simplest method. If I try a couple different ways then I can compare.

Hmm, looks like I've just committed myself to 75 litres or so of Berliner Weisse.


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## Weizguy (30/12/06)

Guess what? I missed this post after an arvo with some Newcastle boyz, then I had a quick meal and went over to Stephen's house to meet PistolPatch. Didn't get home 'til after dawn. (Don't worry - I walked home, but got a lift there).

I started with a lacto culture, but I didn't obtain a lot of sourness from it. Initially, I pitched the lacto culture, and put the fermentor in a fridge for 24 hours at 18C, and then pitched the German Ale yeast.
At the end of the ferment, at bottling, I added lactic acid in very small amounts (~1 ml), stirred (gently, to avoid oxidation) and sampled. Add, stir and sample: until the beer tasted balanced. I added about 25 ml total of 90% (prob 88%) lactic acid to my 25 litre batch. But, don't forget, there was already some sourness there from the lactobacillus.

Let your tongue be your guide (in may things, but in this case for the taste of the beer). Brew it to suit your taste and let everyone else adapt. You can't trust a brewer who doesn't brew for his own taste.

The recipe contained 10% Weyermann acidulated malt, 60% pils malt, 30% JW wheat malt. (Oz wheat malt works well).

I've read that adding lactic acid requires some time to integrate the acidity into the beer, and I found that with my Berlinisch weissbier. Bottled in June, and won Best of Show in the NSW State comp on 21 Oct.

You may need to brew a lot of mighty big batches b4 you use a whole litre of lactic acid. Good fun to try though!

To save Darren posting this info: a warning (from an an old Eastern Suburb Brewmaker web site)-
*"Be very careful when handling acids, and try to avoid contact with the skin. You should wear gloves and eye protection when handling such dangerous compounds. "*

Seth out


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## Kai (2/1/07)

Thanks for the advice, seth. I just peeked in my beer fridge and I already have enough lacto cultures to kick-start 500L of milk, so at some point soon I need to try and work out roughly how far that will take me in the white jelly donut world.


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## Weizguy (2/1/07)

Kai said:


> Thanks for the advice, seth. I just peeked in my beer fridge and I already have enough lacto cultures to kick-start 500L of milk, so at some point soon I need to try and work out roughly how far that will take me in the white jelly donut world.


Are any of your cultures L. delbruekii, as that's the appropriate strain?

If not you can quickly culture some by making a boiled DME starter and adding a handful of uncrushed malted grain when the starter has cooled to 50 C. Simple, yet effective, esp if you have a thermos. 3 days later, you can upsize your culture. Stinky sour beers, here we come...

Seth


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## neonmeate (17/3/07)

making my first berliner today - was inspired by some of the microscoping stirplating freaks on babblebelt to do one with brett anomalus. will also chuck in some natural yoghurt for good measure. 1028, 50% pils 50% wheat , 4 IBUs of spalt boiled for 10 mins. will let you know if it's drinkable by winter or so. or whether it needs green cordial.


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## tangent (17/3/07)

:beer: you hard-core wheaties inspire me 

Just got e-mailed an informative link:
http://www.brewlab.co.uk/pdf/whats%20the%2...0of%20wheat.pdf


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## Weizguy (17/3/07)

Yep, it's time again soon for another sour wheat beer for me.

This time, I plan a larger lacto culture, coz a sour mash is not true to style.

Neon-m, the recipe looks good, although the W1028 may give you slightly uncharacteristic flavours if fermented warm. A neutral yeast is prob best. I use Wyeast German Ale with mine.
The grain bill for one of these is ridiculously cheap, as it's basically 3kg of gain and bugger-all hops, in a 25 litre batch.

Pls let us all know how it goes, and what you feel the Brett adds.

*(edited for measurement changes/ accuracy)*
Beerz
Seth


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## Ray_Mills (17/3/07)

Finally brewing the beer next Saturday
A copy of my post in the IBU's Forum

Well back into real brewing
This beer will sort me out and its about 3%
Not much in it but a big brew day of things i have not yet tried

My Berliner Weisse
Here is the recipe

Berliner Weisse
17-A Berliner Weisse

Size: 19.2 L
Efficiency: 65.0%
Attenuation: 81.0%
Calories: 99.28 per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.030 (1.028 - 1.032)
Terminal Gravity: 1.006 (1.004 - 1.006)
Color: 2.6 (2.0 - 3.0)
Alcohol: 3.21% (2.8% - 3.6%)
Bitterness: 6.34 (3.0 - 8.0)

Ingredients:
1.4 kg JWM Export Pilsner
1.4 kg JWM Wheat Malt
0.5 kg Weyermann Acidulated
18.0 g Tettnanger Tettnang (4.7%) - FWH
20.0 oz Whirflock - added during boil, boiled 15.0 min
1.0 ea White Labs WLP011 European Ale
1 ea Untitled Yeast
1 ea WYeast 4335 Lactobacillus Delbrueckii

Schedule:

Notes:
Hops FWH
10g Added Gypsum at Run Off
Wyeast 4335 Lactobacillus Delbruckii added to the starter on Brew Day
Bottled in Champagne Bottles
Mash in at 38C with 10 L of water, hold for 2 hours
Add near boiling water to take the mash up to 50C for 30 minutes
Add near boiling water to take the mash up to 64C for 1 hour
Add near boilong water to take the mash up to 77C for 15 minutes
Check gravity is around 1.030
Boil the Wort for 20 minutes
Let the wort rest for 15 minutes.
Collect 2 litres of wort for krausen for bottle conditioning
Re-Boil this to make sure its sterile and seal in a plastic container, When cool freeze till bottling day.
Rack wort to a sterilised 20 L drum and keep till Starter is ready for Fermentation day
Ferment at 18C for 4 days
Rack to secondary at 10C for 3 days.
Rack Again for bottling.

Warm up the krausen and add to the second secondary
Mix and bottle as normal.
Lager the bottles at 16C for 2 weeks
Then lager at 10C for 3 months

Results generated by BeerTools Pro 1.0.19


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## neonmeate (18/3/07)

Les the Weizguy said:


> Neon-m, the recipe looks good, although the W1028 may give you slightly uncharacteristic flavours if fermented warm. A neutral yeast is prob best. I use Wyeast German Ale with mine.




wouldnt dream of adding 1028 yeast!!! i meant, OG of 1028!!! in fact i'm not using saccharomyces at all. yeast is only Brett Anomalus and lacto from yoghurt (i know it's not delbrueckii lacto strains but im interested to see what happens)
I also doubled the hops to 50g of spalt for 10min boil cause i know brett doesnt have problems with hop levels like lacto does


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## Weizguy (19/3/07)

neonmeate said:


> wouldnt dream of adding 1028 yeast!!! i meant, OG of 1028!!! in fact i'm not using saccharomyces at all. yeast is only Brett Anomalus and lacto from yoghurt (i know it's not delbrueckii lacto strains but im interested to see what happens)
> I also doubled the hops to 50g of spalt for 10min boil cause i know brett doesnt have problems with hop levels like lacto does


Whew!, I was only a little concerned.

I applaud your academic take on the beer. I've read about a brewer who uses yoghurt cultures in his Weissbiers. So it must work.
I'm still a litlle concerned re the end result flava, but it'll be a drinkable, if not loveable beer. :beer: 

Would be happy to swap a PET bottle or two if ur keen, after I brew my next one. pm me pls :beerbang: 

BTW the green cordial is woodruff, not lime, and has been shown to be carcinogenic (IIRC), so I'd recommend the Grenadine raspberry cordial, or any type of Schnapps.

...did I mention that at a Christmas visit to Redoak, David was pumping me for sour weisse technique info, seeing as I did well with my Berliner at the NSW State comp. Was happy to help, although he was less forthcoming about his beers. His Grande Reserve was, IMHO, getting a little stale and showing its age. That's prob why it's available to ordinary punters now , and not just for corporate tastings, as was previously offered. My opinion only, of course.
Mr Hollyoak, if ur reading this, I'm brewing a Berliner weisse soon and will be dropping one in for a tasting.

Ray, luv ya recipe. It may be a tad more tangy than mine as I use 2 kg pils and 1 kg JW wheat. Do ya think I should use all German malt?

Beerz to all and to all a good night  
Seth (+ Ruination clone in belly 2 nite)


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## neonmeate (19/3/07)

only joking bout the green cordial, i know woodruff is in short supply in these parts. but since i'm a real man i take my 2.8% beer unadulterated.

be interested to see what the acid levels are from the yoghurt and brett - i used brett anomalus in a couple of dark beers and it wasnt nearly as acidic as bruxellensis from orval. but i love the fruity leathery flavour it gives so we'll see. i admit it caused momentary horror inside myself to see a big lump of jalna plopping into the wort. however +36hrs from pitching i have a massive slimy krauesen. it's also the first krauesen ive ever seen with a lump in the middle - skin round the outside, white frothy stuff in the middle - must be the yoghurt?! perhaps will turn out more binliner weisse than berliner weisse.
i'll letcher know when it's done and we can swap.

the redoak guy could use some advice on berliners, his wasn't sour at all!!



Les the Weizguy said:


> Whew!, I was only a little concerned.
> 
> I applaud your academic take on the beer. I've read about a brewer who uses yoghurt cultures in his Weissbiers. So it must work.
> I'm still a litlle concerned re the end result flava, but it'll be a drinkable, if not loveable beer. :beer:
> ...


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## neonmeate (19/3/07)

tangent said:


> :beer: you hard-core wheaties inspire me
> 
> Just got e-mailed an informative link:
> http://www.brewlab.co.uk/pdf/whats%20the%2...0of%20wheat.pdf



how could that guy write an article on wheat beer and spell it "heffer weise"!!??


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## warrenlw63 (19/3/07)

neonmeate said:


> how could that guy write an article on wheat beer and spell it "heffer weise"!!??



Perhaps he meant "heifer-weise" because it's a cow of a beer. B) 

Warren -


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## neonmeate (19/3/07)

warrenlw63 said:


> Perhaps he meant "heifer-weise" because it's a cow of a beer. B)
> 
> Warren -



i'm sure he would be none the weise about cows too


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## Jye (7/8/07)

Has anyone brewed one lately? any new tips?

Im not ready to introduce any little critters into my brewery yet so will probably go with lactic acid when kegging. I might be a little braver next time  

Where is the best place to get lactic acid? does anyone know of a Brisbane source?


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## Weizguy (7/8/07)

As I may have mentioned before, if you don't want lacto bugs in your brewery vessels, you can do a sour mash, and add it to your mash on brew day. There is an art and finesse in doing this, to get the right sourness level. My first BW used a sour mash and it was quite a sour beer. Not as balanced as the one in the case swap last year, but still within the style, as they can be very sour. Still a quenching beer.

Does a sour mash appeal to you?

IIRC, "Wartkil" wart remover from the pharmacy is mostly lactic acid.  

Seth


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## Tony (7/8/07)

mmmmm wort killer weisse, now there's a concept

I liked your sour mash version better mate

cheers


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## Jye (7/8/07)

The sourness level is one thing that has turned me off a sour mash, it could take half a dozen brews to get the level right. Ive thought about doing a normal sac rest and then letting the mash cool to about 50C, introducing some whole grain and leaving for a period of 5-36 hrs to sour.

This maybe a track I go down if it turns out to be a style I enjoy.

Not sure if Wartkil is food grade


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## Screwtop (7/8/07)

warrenlw63 said:


> Perhaps he meant "heifer-weise" because it's a cow of a beer. B)
> 
> Warren -



And we saw Fu_kers in the paddock miss on the school excursion. "I beg your pardon"! Well miss the bus driver said they was Effers, but we knew what he meant miss! :lol:


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## Weizguy (7/8/07)

Jye said:


> The sourness level is one thing that has turned me off a sour mash, it could take half a dozen brews to get the level right. Ive thought about doing a normal sac rest and then letting the mash cool to about 50C, introducing some whole grain and leaving for a period of 5-36 hrs to sour.
> 
> This maybe a track I go down if it turns out to be a style I enjoy.
> 
> Not sure if Wartkil is food grade


Yep, the sourness is another factor to figure into balancing the beer, and with a light pale beer, the balance can be affected greatly.

However, I believe that the sourness doesn't come into the equation that much, as you can make a very sour version and it's still drinkable. Maybe it's like those sour lollies. Yeah, they're sour, but still balanced in some way. I used a home-made lacto culture in my Xmas case beer, and supplemented with lactic acid (1 ml at a time, mix and taste, etc). I think that, if you add lactic acid, the sourness is better presented if you have some sourness already in the beer. Opinion only, until someone else gets the same result.

You might want to follow the NSW Xmas in July 2007 thread to see how people liked the sourness from my overnight acid rest in the Gose. Not many results are in yet, but I feel it was well balanced

Seth out


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