# Power Bill



## stowaway (1/11/10)

I think i have an extremely high power bill and I cant figure out why.
My bill is normally $700 a quarter. I expect it to be high as i have 5 people living here with lots of appliances but that seems really high (we never use heating/airconditioning)

we have:
1 fermenting frdige (stays around 14degrees)
1 Chest freezer converted to beer fridge
2 Normal Upright fridges
1 Chest Freezer
1 Mediacenter Computer on most of the time
1 Computer On most of the time
46" LCD TV (Seems to be on most of the time)

Thats about it... whats everyone elses average quarterly power bill?


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## proudscum (1/11/10)

$645 with 2 pcs
2 fridges
2 small children lots of washing and with the amount of rain this spring/winter a fare amount of dryer time.


gas heating hot water and stove top.

life has just got expensive in Australia thats all it is.


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## FNQ Bunyip (1/11/10)

4 ceiling fans never off
2 wall fans never off
1 tuckerbox freeser 
3 beer fridges
1 large food fridge
1 double door fermenting fridge
1 80lt Engel running as fresser 
3 laptops never off
1 presure pump for water 
small electric oven
usual phone charges ,dvd,settop box ect never off 

about $530 a quater ..

just waiting for this latest bill as I have not brewed at all , so no ferm fridge, and 1 less beer fridge , should be interesting ..

cheers

Edit: forgot the washing and dryer..we try to only use the dryer for finishing off after the washing has hung for a day in the brewery...


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## husky (1/11/10)

$600 a quarter. small house, 2 kids under 2, 2 fridges. Seems to keep going up so we had 1.5kW solar installed. Gives up 10kWh of the average 26kWh we use per day atm(thats a full sun day). Not making much difference to the power bill yet but once the meter is upgraded and we start getting the 66c per kWh we put into the grid it should reduce the bill a bit.


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## chadjaja (1/11/10)

About $280-300 for two of us


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## Pennywise (1/11/10)

Holy ****! I thought I had it bad, I have about the same amount of crap as you blokes and my bill is around the 350 mark a quater currently. About 3 years ago it was half that at least, and my power usage since then has not doubled <_<


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## felten (1/11/10)

I've been thinking about getting one of those power meters for testing the fermenting fridge, those old fridges are power hogs I'm sure, especially when you're trying to CC @ 0c on a hot day.

something like this http://www.latestbuy.com.au/digital-power-meter.html


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## Shed101 (1/11/10)

$264 including 100% green power (would be $200 without).

That's for two people who both work from home.

Likewise we have no heating or cooling:

But only a small fermenting fridge, 
a fairly small f/freezer, 
old school TV (the most efficient), 
washing machine on timesaver 2-3 / week,
low energy light bulbs,
2 Macs which are turned off whenever not in use,

CPUs use a surprisingly large amount of energy even when on sleep mode ... and manufacturers claims are often wrong. In the US companies have been prosecuted for false energy claims ... but over here apparently they're capable of regulating themselves :lol:


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## Woola (1/11/10)

felten said:


> I've been thinking about getting one of those power meters for testing the fermenting fridge, those old fridges are power hogs I'm sure, especially when you're trying to CC @ 0c on a hot day.
> 
> something like this http://www.latestbuy.com.au/digital-power-meter.html



Felton, 

i bought one of these at jaycar for $20. The display can be a little hard to read, but it was interesting

http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?I...mp;form=KEYWORD


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## Arghonaut (1/11/10)

Two adults + one toddler,

1x 470L Fridge
1x approx 400 litre chest freezer + temp controller for fermenting
1x computer on 4-5 hours a day
1x laptop on 4-5 hours a day
1x dishwasher, avg one load a day
1x washing machine, avg one load a day
1x 32" LCD tele, 1-2 hours a day
all the usual kitchen appliances, vacuum cleaner etc.
energy efficient lights.

Averages 5kWh a day. Just took care to get efficient appliances across the board, with gas hot water & gas stove.

Run on a stand alone 1.8kW solar system with 750 AH @ 48v battery bank and 3000 watt inverter. Was designed to provide an average of 5kWh a day over a year, gives closer to 6 in reality. I have a back up generator that i have to run 3 -4 times a year, if the batteries get low due to extended bad weather.


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## QldKev (1/11/10)

felten said:


> I've been thinking about getting one of those power meters for testing the fermenting fridge, those old fridges are power hogs I'm sure, especially when you're trying to CC @ 0c on a hot day.
> 
> something like this http://www.latestbuy.com.au/digital-power-meter.html




Looks like one of these, but a few $ different :lol: 

QldKev

edit: doh!, I should have read to the end of the topic, already posted


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## yardy (1/11/10)

ours is average 600 a qtr, running 2 fridges, 1 kegerator, ******* pool that no-one uses, bore pump that gets a flogging and the shed that i constantly leave the lights on all the time so the cane toads can get around OK.

Dave


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## Bribie G (1/11/10)

Kitchen Fridge
big old upside down fridge freezer in garage
wee bar fridge dedicated to lager brewing
Keg mate kegerator
2 urns weekly brew

All electric kitchen
desktop computer on all day
42 inch LCD on most of the day

All lights modern curly variety or flouros
Rarely use heating or cooling. 

2 people, Hot water on offpeak.

Around $320 p.q. and the last bill covered the competition circuit brewing frenzy - oops should have noted I get the old farts rebate and don't pay the ambulance levy so would be maybe $400 gross.


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## seemax (1/11/10)

Latest was $450... 2 adults and 2 kids

Mac + Tivo and assortment of network gear on 24/7
50" Plasma on too much
3 x fridges + 1 x fermenting
Dryer/washer
Too many downlights that no one else but me turns off!
20A A/C unit used for heating and cooling

Can't complain too much, even the gas bill was only $200 (water + stove)!!


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## white.grant (1/11/10)

Electricity looks to be a hell of a lot cheaper in Queensland and Victoria than it is in NSW. My bill went up last quarter by about $150 while the daily household usage went down. Thank you IPART, thank you very much.

Since that bill we have been very conscious about trying to save a few more Kwh - turning off the puters overnight, switching the TVs off at the wall and generally tight wadding on lights. Next step will be solar hot water and possibly a solar panel or 14. 

cheers

grant


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## djneli (1/11/10)

800 per qtr:

Pool filter
2 food fridges
2 beer fridges
1 fermenting fridge
All electric brewery
2 computers
2 plasma TVs
3 people


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## TidalPete (1/11/10)

1 x 300 litre kitchen fridge
1 x 220 litre kitchen chestie
Electric stove, microwave, dishwasher, etc
2 x fermentation fridges (1 large, 1 small)
1 x 250 litre chestie
1 x 500 litre kegerator (chestie)
HERMS brewing away almost every 2nd week
Computer on most of the day
Bore pump doing something for hours most days
2 x Plasma TV's get a lot of use
Normal lighting usage
Washing machine on most mornings
Ceiling fans going like the clappers all summer

1 x 3.6Kh new solar system that has brought our electricity bills down to SFA. :super: 

TP


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## MarkBastard (1/11/10)

About $250 a quarter. Cooking and hot water is gas.

I run a lot of electronic stuff too.

To be specific, this is what I have running.

1 - Large family fridge
2 - Converted chest freezer (275L)
3 - Two bar fridges running at fermenting or lagering temps 24/7
4 - A NAS (like a PC) 24/7
5 - Laptop acting as server 24/7
6 - Media Centre PC 24/7
7 - Three LCD TV's though rarely more than one on at the same time
8 - 4 fans and 4 air cons though not often used
9 - Laptops, chargers, ipod docks and stuff like that used fairly regularly
10 - Urn with 2400 watt element used every couple of weeks for a few hours
11 - Oven, microwave, toaster, dishwasher, washing machine
12 - Clothes dryer used for drying clothes. Don't have a clothes line.

I can't understand how it's even possible to have a $600 electricity bill.

Hmm forgot modems, routers, the fact I have those wasteful 12v downlights and the wife likes leaving lights on!!! Automatic garage door! The list goes on.


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## goomboogo (1/11/10)

TidalPete, if you don't mind me asking, how much was the 3.6kw system?


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## TidalPete (1/11/10)

goomboogo said:


> TidalPete, if you don't mind me asking, how much was the 3.6kw system?



With government subsidies & a big discount from Solar Shop just under $16000.
Just hoping I live long enough to get my money back.  
A good place to get info on a decent solar system is the Whirlpool Forums.

TP


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## praxis178 (1/11/10)

$460/quarter

1 2door fridge freezer (food)
1 bar fridge (hop freezer)
1 fermentation fridge (~14C on average, although right now it's 10C)
1 beer fridge

3pcs (two laptops)
stove
washer
dishwasher
32" LCD TV

Oh yeah electric hotwater....

Very rarely used: Kiln 3.6KVA draw

Four adults so I guess it's about average for a SE QLD home.


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## bignath (1/11/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> About $250 a quarter. Cooking and hot water is gas.
> 
> I run a lot of electronic stuff too.
> 
> ...



Jeeezzzuuuuusssss!

I would love a $250 quarterly. Last bill i paid a few weeks ago was $718! 
My setup is very similar to your description. 
Beer fridge, Keezer, Fermenting fridge, usual TV and assosciated suspects, a couple of computers, nothing out of the ordinary....
Kids leave their lights on all the time though, but that couldn't be it.
Might have to give energy watch a call, or move further north perhaps...


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## Batz (1/11/10)

felten said:


> I've been thinking about getting one of those power meters for testing the fermenting fridge, those old fridges are power hogs I'm sure, especially when you're trying to CC @ 0c on a hot day.
> 
> something like this http://www.latestbuy.com.au/digital-power-meter.html




I have one the same as that you can have for $20.00

Batz


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## MarkBastard (1/11/10)

Big Nath said:


> Jeeezzzuuuuusssss!
> 
> I would love a $250 quarterly. Last bill i paid a few weeks ago was $718!
> My setup is very similar to your description.
> ...



I live in a complex and our electricity is done through some weird bulk process. I think we get cheaper rates because of that maybe. Can't remember how electricity is rated but I think ours is 15cents. Maybe 15 cents per kilowatt hour or something like that.

Amazingly it started at 5cents. They had a lot of trouble getting it going at the start so they only sent the bill out after about 10 months. I was thinking I was going to get free electricity forever hehehe. But then they sent out a bill and it was still heaps cheap anyway! I think they gave a really low rate at first because they'd taken so long to send one out. Fair enough.

Had gas for free the first 15 months or so I lived here. Basically when I first moved in I called up and the electricity company said they'd be doing gas too, but then 15 months later I get a disconnect notice from Energy Australia saying I've receiving illegal gas. Called the electricity company and they said they don't do gas. So I just signed up with AGL so that Origin wouldn't try and get back-money out of me hahaha.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (1/11/10)

TidalPete said:


> With government subsidies & a big discount from Solar Shop just under $16000.
> Just hoping I live long enough to get my money back.
> A good place to get info on a decent solar system is the Whirlpool Forums.
> 
> TP



Or this place:

http://forums.energymatters.com.au/

I bought a set of flooded lead acids from them a while ago (24V, 1050AH Raylite) and it is where my wind turbine originally came from.

There is the usual forum community mix of contributors - some who really know their sunlight.


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## outbreak (1/11/10)

Ok I thought my $200 bill was crazy.....


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## Bribie G (1/11/10)

Big Nath said:


> Jeeezzzuuuuusssss!
> 
> I would love a $250 quarterly. Last bill i paid a few weeks ago was $718!
> My setup is very similar to your description.
> ...



SA power bills have always been huge compared to QLD, even a few years ago when our bills were around $150 I was horrified at reports of the poor Adelaidian centrelink clients especially in the Northern Suburbs - having their power cut off because they couldn't pay the $500 bills. Now with Anna Blight selling everything off (started by Beattie) the differential is getting smaller.


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## Hatchy (1/11/10)

We're under $250/quarter, electric heating would be the main impact on ours. I used to work in a call centre for an energy retailer so will post some tips when I get home, iphone is ok for reading, not so good for posting.


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## amiddler (1/11/10)

I have almost fell over with some of these prices. Just paid the power bill at $150 then checked how often we get them. Every 2 months here in the west so $300 a quarter. Other providers may have different billing frequencies.

I run a fairly typical 2 adult 2 kid household:
2x fridges
1x fermenting fridge between 4 and 12'C
1x 216L kegator
2x computers
washing machine 1-2 loads a day (new baby)
other typical appliances and brew once a fortnight with electric HWT.

I don't have any fancy TVs just old tube types. Gas hot water and stove top, gas bills around $200 a quarter. We are slowly changing to low power lights. We average 4x 50w down lights in each room so swapping them for 10w energy efficient is a huge power saving.

Drew


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## bignath (1/11/10)

Hatchy said:


> We're under $250/quarter, electric heating would be the main impact on ours. I used to work in a call centre for an energy retailer so will post some tips when I get home, iphone is ok for reading, not so good for posting.




Hatchy, as we're in the same state, i would be very interested in any tips you could post at your convenience. I feel like our house is doing most of the usual things that people suggest, but one thing i want to start trialling is to see if it does make a difference by switching off appliances at the wall, and if so, how much of a difference... 
We have a dishwasher, but usually wash by hand. Turn the lights out in rooms when we aren't in them (kids keep forgetting though..)

Cheers

Nath


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## Shed101 (1/11/10)

I used to work with people experts on energy efficiency. Things like standby power can use huge amounts of electricity. Especially when m/facturers are cheating.

This link might help you.

A nice quote from their homepage:


"An individual product draws relatively little standby power (see here for examples) but a typical American home has forty products constantly drawing power. Together these amount to almost 10% of residential electricity use."


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## Brewindo (1/11/10)

Electricity is stil cheap in Aus though. I have lived OS now for several years in a couple of different countires. Now in Indonesia and our electricity bill decreased when we moved here. Still minimum $500 per month ($1500 - $2000 a qtr). At least 1 A/C running 24/7, with the rest of the usual power sucking goodies as listed above.

Even at that price the service leaves a lot to be desired. We have a back up genset to compensate for the frequent power interuptions :blink:


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## Phoney (1/11/10)

$150 - 180 pq.

Heating, hot water & cooking on gas.

2 People
1 TV
1 PC on 24/7
2 fridges (1 for kitchen 1 for fermenting)
Washing machine - 2 loads per week
Dryer - rarely used.
1 40L urn, used to brew once every 2 or 3 weeks.
Kettle, toaster, microwave & thats it.


I cant believe so many people pay so much! :blink:


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## benno1973 (1/11/10)

outbreak said:


> Ok I thought my $200 bill was crazy.....



Yeh, there's some pretty big numbers being posted.

We have:
1 x food fridge
1 x fermenting fridge
1 x kegerator
2 x freezers
electric boosted solar hot water
reverse cycle aircon
3 x computers

for 2 kids, 2 adults, in a 4x2 house.

Our last bill for 1 month (we get billed monthly) was $30, and $10 of that was supply charge.

The biggest savers of energy are out 1kW PV system on the roof, and the centameter that we have in our kitchen, which allows us to identify when we're using lots of power and start turning things off. The small energy meters are also ideal for monitoring a single appliance and its usage over a week. It was on that alone that I was able to convince my wife that my fermenting fridge used less energy than our kettle...


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## DJR (1/11/10)

It's about $200-300 per quarter here.

Big drawers:

2x PC's in the office, probably about 80 hours of use per week all up plus a few standby things (printer/scanner, voip phone, cordless phone, speakers, routers)
1x macbook not used very often in the house
1 old fridge in the kitchen
1 newish chest freezer
Old CRT TV that hardly gets used
Electric cooktop+oven
Washing machine
Flouro globes in all the sockets bar 1 that isn't used much (porch light)
Portable aircon unit that draws about 1kw when on

Gas instant water heater and gas heater - used to have a big electric system and the gas instant is a fair amount cheaper.

Could get it down a bit by not using the PC so much and getting a more efficient chest freezer/fridge I reckon.


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## mika (1/11/10)

My power bill isn't crazy, but the 1kw solar system on the roof is doing SFA. I think it's saving me ~$10 a bill if I'm lucky. Others seem to be having more success, is my system a dud ?


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## drew9242 (1/11/10)

Drew said:


> I have almost fell over with some of these prices. Just paid the power bill at $150 then checked how often we get them. Every 2 months here in the west so $300 a quarter. Other providers may have different billing frequencies.
> 
> I run a fairly typical 2 adult 2 kid household:
> 2x fridges
> ...



Hey Drew

As we live in WA aswell we get the bill every 2 months aswell, our bills are normaly about 120 bucks. But you did your calculations wrong. To be a quarter of a year that would be 3 months. So your quarter bill would be $225 instead. I think i have worked that out alright.

Cheers Drew


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## amiddler (1/11/10)

Your right. I did a quarter as 4 months :blink: 

People need to be quoting there gas as well if not using power for heating and cooking as I think some people are quoting prices of a full electricity house. I definatly would not pay more than $1500 a year for combined power and gas. Always looking to save more thoe with prices going up.

Drew


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## white.grant (1/11/10)

mika said:


> My power bill isn't crazy, but the 1kw solar system on the roof is doing SFA. I think it's saving me ~$10 a bill if I'm lucky. Others seem to be having more success, is my system a dud ?




From my very basic understanding, 1Kwh isn't a very big system, so you would only be ofsetting a small amount of the energy ou actually use. I was planning on a 6 kwh system for my place and that would make me almost self powering.

cheers

grant


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## benno1973 (1/11/10)

mika said:


> My power bill isn't crazy, but the 1kw solar system on the roof is doing SFA. I think it's saving me ~$10 a bill if I'm lucky. Others seem to be having more success, is my system a dud ?



As I understand it, the PV panels offset your power first, and if they are producing more than you're consuming, then they export the remainder to the grid. The amount you see on your bill is the amount you're exporting, so if it's $10 a month, then that's just the surplus and the remainder is being used to offset your existing power. It's hard to work out how much your PV panels are producing daily unless you have a display on your inverter or you get good at reading the smartmeter in your meter box.


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## Banshee (1/11/10)

felten said:


> I've been thinking about getting one of those power meters for testing the fermenting fridge, those old fridges are power hogs I'm sure, especially when you're trying to CC @ 0c on a hot day.
> 
> something like this http://www.latestbuy.com.au/digital-power-meter.html



Look at Jaycar

http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?I...mp;SUBCATID=457


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## Shed101 (1/11/10)

Kaiser Soze said:


> As I understand it, the PV panels offset your power first, and if they are producing more than you're consuming, then they export the remainder to the grid. The amount you see on your bill is the amount you're exporting, so if it's $10 a month, then that's just the surplus and the remainder is being used to offset your existing power. It's hard to work out how much your PV panels are producing daily unless you have a display on your inverter or you get good at reading the smartmeter in your meter box.



Feed-in tarrifs vary from state to state (gross vs net and the amount that you get/kwh I believe). NSW was the best .. until last week when they pulled the rug out from everybody who has a system and all the suppliers. 

This country's overly complicated system of government is so retarded when it comes to this stuff sometimes 

BTW our $200/quarter is all our power. No gas/solar/anything else here.

Oh, we're powering two pumps from our tank water too. 1 for vegie garden and 1 for the housewater.


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## porky (1/11/10)

Solar pays differently in different states. NSW pays gross, Queensland pays net. Meaning here in Qld we get paid for what we export during the day *that exceeds what we use in those hours*. 

We get paid 44 cents per kWh exported, while we pay 21 cents including GST on what we buy. So we don't run the dryer or dishwasher during daylite hours. Wait until the sun goes low and we are no longer producing. 

We installed a 5.44 kWh system, 32 panels on the shed roof rated at 170 watts each. The end result is what used to be $600 per quarter plus ambo charges is now totally free, plus we are getting paid an average of $5.50 per day. The last quarter we only had the proper meter installed for 14 days of the billing peroid and we got an $81 credit. 

Next bill should net us free power and ambo costs plus a check for around $450 from the electric company. 
Highest export day so far was 27 kWh....lowest nil. but average is 12.5 over three months now. 




Cheers,
bud


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## Bribie G (1/11/10)

<Pommy rant>

Shed, being a pommy blow in like yourself, I too am constantly still amazed at the fact that a country with the same population as Syria or Madagascar has to have State Governments at all. Ok it's historical, the Former Colonies, The Tyrrany of Distance, Federation etc. However the idea that we have to have this system due to our vast distances is utter bollocks nowadays. I just got a RO Water System from Nev in Perth overnight and everyone in Australia who was interested just attended the Nats in Melbourne and got home in time for work this morning, we are NOT a big country, we are just a smaller Euro country smeared out around the edge of a friggin huge screaming wilderness. And long may it be so. Sure Queensland and NSW combined are the same size as India but apart from a couple of glitches like Toowoomba or Dubbo nearly everyone lives within spittin of the coast so we are just a long stretched out population belt that could be fitted into something the size of Portugal if everything were rearranged.

What does seem to be the end result is that Premiers and Ministers strut around as if they are little Prime Ministers and Cabinets and local government Mayors Swan around like little Premiers. I think Shed you would agree that State Governments are just glorified County Councils at the end of the day. The recent amalgamations of Councils in Queensland gives some hope. I remember about 15 years ago there was a lot of talk about going to a "provincial" style government with provinces along the lines of French Departaments and just as an example it was proposed "Caboolture Shire, Pine Rivers and Redcliffe combined is a good example of how a workable 'province' could be formed, another good example being the Sunshine coast, etc.......". Waddya know, we now have just that. 

Removing a layer of government would surely reduce the number of bloodsucking politicians living on our backs. 

Don't get me wrong I love this country in a way I could never go back to the UK, and can even sing the anthem unlike most native born Aussies of my age but the State thing pisses me off. Don't get me going on rail guages now. .  

</ Pommy rant>


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## benno1973 (1/11/10)

budwiser said:


> Solar pays differently in different states. NSW pays gross, Queensland pays net. Meaning here in Qld we get paid for what we export during the day *that exceeds what we use in those hours*.



Ahh, didn't know it was different state by state. 



budwiser said:


> So we don't run the dryer or dishwasher during daylite hours. Wait until the sun goes low and we are no longer producing.



That's a great tip.


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## porky (1/11/10)

Shed101 said:


> NSW was the best .. until last week when they pulled the rug out from everybody who has a system and all the suppliers.



It is my understanding that they pulled the plug on any new customers....ones with a contract already won't lose it.
The problem there is they pay gross, and at 66 cents per kWh as well....way to much. 

At our 44 cent net here in Qld we will have this system paid at worst in 7 years, at best in 5 years....that isn't too bad considering we will have free power for a long time to come.

bud


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## Bribie G (1/11/10)

budwiser said:


> It is my understanding that they pulled the plug on any new customers....ones with a contract already won't lose it.
> The problem there is they pay gross, and at 66 cents per kWh as well....way to much.
> 
> At our 44 cent net here in Qld we will have this system paid at worst in 7 years, at best in 5 years....that isn't too bad considering we will have free power for a long time to come.
> ...



Considering that 15% to 20% of all Australians move house each year according to Allied Pickfords (who should know) can you take these systems with you or do they stay welded to the roof?


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## Shed101 (1/11/10)

Nice rant, Bribie^^^. I agree with you. And it's not 'cos i'm pom, i think it's an observation many Australians make, too.



BribieG said:


> Considering that 15% to 20% of all Australians move house each year according to Allied Pickfords (who should know) can you take these systems with you or do they stay welded to the roof?



As for this, as I understand it the wiring is a big issue. There are companies trying to get housing developers to build houses 'solar ready' ie with the wiring ready to have panels attached. (My knowledge of electrickery is bordering on lethal though so I don't know the ins and outs of it).


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## porky (1/11/10)

The wiring is no big deal. Small inverters can be pluged into a power point...that easy. 
Ours is just wired into the panel through a 25 amp breaker, due to it's size. 


We are retired and have no intention of moving, so it was a good idea.

Other wise I don't know how much it would add to the value of the house really.


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## brando (1/11/10)

budwiser said:


> Next bill should net us free power and ambo costs plus a check for around $450 from the electric company.
> Highest export day so far was 27 kWh....lowest nil. but average is 12.5 over three months now.
> View attachment 41786
> 
> ...



Budwiser, will you be needing to pay income tax on that $450 cheque from the electricity company?


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## white.grant (1/11/10)

budwiser said:


> The wiring is no big deal. Small inverters can be pluged into a power point...that easy.
> Ours is just wired into the panel through a 25 amp breaker, due to it's size.
> 
> 
> ...



I have read recently that the panels add positive value to a house though most installations are made by people in it for the long haul. 

However since the solar subsidy schemes came into place the price of the panels has dropped significantly (one of the excuses for the change in price in NSW) which is great but means that the economics of payback are constantly shifting. I heard on the radio last week ( ABC FM interview with Tim Flannery) that the cost effectiveness of solar panels will fall below coal in the current decade, so then there will be a significant shift in the way energy is generated and hopefully the price we pay for it. 

I really like the idea of running my house on clean energy from my own roof though - that's gotta be worth a few grand at least!


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## porky (1/11/10)

Grantw said:


> I really like the idea of running my house on clean energy from my own roof though - that's gotta be worth a few grand at least!



I agree, and I have a wind turbine ordered from the states, should be here in a few weeks. Just to make up for those cloudy days. 
Also in the process of installing solar hot water as well. Just can't help myself  
Even though our hot water is on a night meter and doesn't cost much...I scored some solar panels at a good deal and am doing the job myself...won't cost too much.

I have heard they are developing a solar panel that will work on 9 different spectrums of light....costs will come down over time.


----------



## kbe (1/11/10)

budwiser said:


> We get paid 44 cents per kWh exported, while we pay 21 cents including GST on what we buy. So we don't run the dryer or dishwasher during daylite hours. Wait until the sun goes low and we are no longer producing.
> 
> We installed a 5.44 kWh system, 32 panels on the shed roof rated at 170 watts each. The end result is what used to be $600 per quarter plus ambo charges is now totally free, plus we are getting paid an average of $5.50 per day. The last quarter we only had the proper meter installed for 14 days of the billing peroid and we got an $81 credit.
> 
> ...


And this is why every ones electricity bill is going up, because the government is paying more for "renewable" energy than coal generated. Not too mention that it only costs 3 cents a kilowatt to produce power with coal.


----------



## porky (1/11/10)

kbe said:


> And this is why every ones electricity bill is going up, because the government is paying more for "renewable" energy than coal generated. Not too mention that it only costs 3 cents a kilowatt to produce power with coal.




Yes, but that is the point. 
You pay it here, or will end up paying for carbon credits....
But you will pay.......


----------



## TonyC (1/11/10)

Bud,
if you dont mind me asking, how much was your system all up.

Regards Tony


----------



## QldKev (1/11/10)

It all sounds so much easier just to chuck an extension cord over the fence when the neighbours are out to run the greenhouse.

QldKev


----------



## Oatlands Brewer (1/11/10)

Arrrrrrr....no one here from Tassie so far.

The power here is HORRENDUS

We have been here in Tassie for 5 years now and the cheapest qtly bill was $650...my latest which i got last week


$918


1 x 450lt fridge
1 x 200lt fridge (only on about 50% of the time)
1 x Heat pump (reversve cycle air con....allways on for approx 8 mths of the year)
1 x Oil heater
1 x desktop on 3 hrs
1 x normal telly on 5-6 hrs

Eleccy hot water and all eleccy cooking

all lights are low energy flouros

OH and we can expect a 27% increase in the next 18 mths according to the sunday paper..


----------



## Dazza_devil (1/11/10)

Oatlands Brewer said:


> Arrrrrrr....no one here from Tassie so far.
> 
> The power here is HORRENDUS
> 
> ...



Not much point of harnessing energy from the two days a month of sunshine we get.
We could always try to dam the Franklin, again.
I reckon we should be taxing all the big companies that turn power into pollution and huge profits that go offshore, maybe that will ease the power burdens forced upon the poor.
If only we could harness energy from cold air.


----------



## 3GumsBrewing (1/11/10)

2 adults, 1 kid - Sydney

2 fridge/freezers
1 fermenting fridge
R/C air con.(hardly ever on)
Fans in each room
GU10 light fittings everywhere.
2 laptops.

$350 / quarter

I think the thing that keeps the cost down for us is the solar hot water, never been in a house without it.


----------



## porky (1/11/10)

TonyC said:


> Bud,
> if you dont mind me asking, how much was your system all up.
> 
> Regards Tony



Tony, Have a look here 
http://www.tigereye.net.au/solar.html

All costs and info there.

Our cost was 22,000 after REC credits.


----------



## porky (1/11/10)

QldKev said:


> It all sounds so much easier just to chuck an extension cord over the fence when the neighbours are out to run the greenhouse.
> 
> QldKev



Mate, you have to have neighbours for that


----------



## white.grant (1/11/10)

budwiser said:


> I agree, and I have a wind turbine ordered from the states, should be here in a few weeks.



Cool. Would like to see some photos of the installation. 

cheers

grant


----------



## Shed101 (1/11/10)

Oatlands Brewer said:


> Arrrrrrr....no one here from Tassie so far.
> 
> The power here is HORRENDUS
> 
> ...



What's your insulation like? Of all the states in the country the two with the worst insulation rates are (or were 5 years ago) the two that need it the most ... Tassie and Qld.


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## Shed101 (1/11/10)

Boagsy said:


> Not much point of harnessing energy from the two days a month of sunshine we get.
> We could always try to dam the Franklin, again.
> I reckon we should be taxing all the big companies that turn power into pollution and huge profits that go offshore, maybe that will ease the power burdens forced upon the poor.
> If only we could harness energy from cold air.



The answer for Tassie might be to harness the tides.

Or, as one of my Mum's neighbours in the UK has ... an Archimedes Screw.


----------



## brando (1/11/10)

brando said:


> Budwiser, will you be needing to pay income tax on that $450 cheque from the electricity company?



Bump...serious question! I can't see the ATO allowing people to generate tax free income in this manner.


----------



## Dazza_devil (1/11/10)

Shed101 said:


> The answer for Tassie might be to harness the tides.
> 
> Or, as one of my Mum's neighbours in the UK has ... an Archimedes Screw.




Perhaps the waves, our west coast has some rippers.


----------



## porky (1/11/10)

brando said:


> Bump...serious question! I can't see the ATO allowing people to generate tax free income in this manner.



Will let you know after next years taxes.

I know the gross meter in NSW is taxable, I don't know if it is here.
Have heard it isn't, but don't know for sure.


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## jakester (1/11/10)

Looks like i gotta get me one of those power meters, our bill is usually anywhere between $750 and $1000 a quarter. Small 3 bedroom house in Sydneys west, 3 kids, pool, lcd tvs, all electric cooking and water, pool, ducted air, keg fridge, fermenting fridge and all the usual household stuff. I heard the downlights are a big drain as well.
I cant believe how low some of your bills are, i knew ours were high but now i will definately look into it, starting from the old keg fridge.


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## Bribie G (1/11/10)

If you are on a pension then they dock it if you are getting income from supplying the grid. However if you have no other income from Super etc then you can get away with around sixty bucks a fortnight before it kicks in. However if you are a part private funded retiree currently being 'deemed' then watch out, you have shot yourself in the foot, apparently.


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## Boondy (1/11/10)

Interesting post!

$900 plus per quarter:

Wife and 2 kids
Fridge
Beer fridge (kegs) :beerbang: 
Chest freezer
Electric cooktop and oven
Air con on hot summer nights (and cold winter nights)
tank water (no mains water here), so electric pump
Supa-treat sewerage (no mains sewerage) - electric aeration and pumps
Small LCD TV
IMAC on a lot, plus wireless network
Solar hot water
etc

Looking at solar, and soon. Plenty of sunny days each year!


----------



## brando (2/11/10)

I'm wondering if people are turning off their plasma/LCD TV's at the wall as opposed to just turning them onto standby via the remote? It would be much less convenient, but I'm told it makes a bit of a difference, but not sure how much.


----------



## Hatchy (2/11/10)

brando said:


> I'm wondering if people are turning off their plasma/LCD TV's at the wall as opposed to just turning them onto standby via the remote? It would be much less convenient, but I'm told it makes a bit of a difference, but not sure how much.



If you've still got the book it should give you the wattage on standby. My (old) tv has a standby wattage of 12w so it's about 83 hours to use 1kw or about 20c. That's how I used to tell customers to work it out but I'm happy to be corrected.


----------



## MarkBastard (2/11/10)

brando said:


> I'm wondering if people are turning off their plasma/LCD TV's at the wall as opposed to just turning them onto standby via the remote? It would be much less convenient, but I'm told it makes a bit of a difference, but not sure how much.



Nah, there's no way I'm ever going to do that to be honest. I've heard all the arguments but it's just a ridiculous thing. I purposefully hide powers points etc near TV's with TV cabinets and stuff like that so I don't see cables so turning stuff off at the power point isn't very practical. If the government really cares about this they'd make rooms have power switches like light switches, so you can just turn an entire rooms power off with one switch when you leave the room or whatever.

But with computers you don't want to do that.

Too complex. The real solution is to reduce the standby power used by devices.


----------



## Shed101 (2/11/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> If the government really cares about this they'd make rooms have power switches like light switches,



Unfortunately you overestimate the power of government / political will.

I was personally involved in scoping a project for federal gov. which was to test (on the sly) a range of laptops and desktops for their real power usage. Studies in the states had revealed some significant disparities. Interestingly, Macs power usage was not dodgy. Project didn't go ahead in the end unfortunately, I was quite looking fwd to find out who the bastards were :lol: 

This means the same for the m/f claims on standby power for many appliances too. The book won't necessarily give you the true picture.

Occasionally a company (LG a notable example) get pinged for b/shitting their energy usage, but because it's industry-led it's too expensive to regulate.


There is a big campaign to reduce standby power in Europe where energy issues are getting more notice, I believe they even banned plasma screens because they're such energy munchers.


----------



## Bribie G (2/11/10)

Europe is in a real power bind, although the new generation of fast fission reactors should solve that in the long run. I understand they are going to build a huge undersea DC cable from Iceland and generate huge amounts of Geothermal energy which will get them out of their current financial black hole. We should be doing that in Australia already but its just yak yak yak at the moment. If a shambles of a country like the Philippines can get 20 % of their power from relatively unsophisticated geothermal plants on Negros and wire it to the rest of the Archipelago why can't we do it as well.


----------



## Shed101 (2/11/10)

BribieG said:


> Europe is in a real power bind, although the new generation of fast fission reactors should solve that in the long run. I understand they are going to build a huge undersea DC cable from Iceland and generate huge amounts of Geothermal energy which will get them out of their current financial black hole. We should be doing that in Australia already but its just yak yak yak at the moment. If a shambles of a country like the Philippines can get 20 % of their power from relatively unsophisticated geothermal plants on Negros and wire it to the rest of the Archipelago why can't we do it as well.



Hmmm ... like the basslink project to export all of Tassie's hydro that has ended up importing to make up for the lack of rain... and sending prices through the roof?

For me it's like beer, I like to know what i'm drinking and provide my own. And I like the idea of being able to provide my own power and water and not be subject to potential price fluctuations and security issues, so when I'm in the right situation i'll be 'solarising' my roof.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt (2/11/10)

Shed101 said:


> And I like the idea of being able to provide my own power and water and not be subject to potential price fluctuations and security issues, so when I'm in the right situation i'll be 'solarising' my roof.




We live completely off-grid. And I love it. 

Installing a grid-feed system is much more cost-effective than off-grid if you already have a connection to the grid, or you are within walking distance of the grid. Mega-subsidies for any grid-connected solar system (appropriately installed) but only subsidies for off-grid systems if you are $60,000 away from the grid. 

I reckon the way to think about it when designing (or issuing instructions to a designer) such a system is to install a solar system that will (after all the losses, as such systems are a little like computer hard disks and the differences between marketing and usable capacity) generate at least as much energy as you use. Think of the grid as a big battery, but never expect to recoup the cost of the system. If you do, buy a lottery ticket...


----------



## cdbrown (2/11/10)

Moved into our new place in April which is an old timber framed house built 100 years ago so old floorboards with a fair few gaps and very high ceilings. Cost $10 per day on average during winter due to running 2 oil radiating heaters most of the day as the wife was home and we have a young kid. Since the weather. At the moment it's about $3 per day based on some rough meter readings

1x kitchen fridge
1x kitchen freezer
1x pc and laptop on all the time
1x plasma and 1x LCD probably adds to 14hrs day with amp and foxtel
2x ferment fridges
1x chest freezer for kegs
Electric stove and oven
Occasional use of dishwasher
Washing machine and dryer (got lots of use in winter as well)


----------



## Snow (2/11/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Nah, there's no way I'm ever going to do that to be honest. I've heard all the arguments but it's just a ridiculous thing. I purposefully hide powers points etc near TV's with TV cabinets and stuff like that so I don't see cables so turning stuff off at the power point isn't very practical. If the government really cares about this they'd make rooms have power switches like light switches, so you can just turn an entire rooms power off with one switch when you leave the room or whatever.
> 
> But with computers you don't want to do that.
> 
> Too complex. The real solution is to reduce the standby power used by devices.



Complex? Not at all! just get one of these http://www.originecostore.com.au/6-Outlet-...oard/PT9778.htm

You can set it up so that when you turn off your tv, stereo or whatever it switches off the standby power from all the other appliances plugged into it. The one I've got also has a plug that will leave the standby on so you can keep the Foxtel IQ box on if you're recording something. It was free when I joined EzyGreen in Brisbane.

With 4 fridges and a chest freezer, A/C and all the usual appliances, we splashed out and installed 4.2kw solar power system. I estimate at current rates of power price rises, around about 6 years pay back. Cost just over $14K. 

We also have solar hot water.

Cheers - Snow


----------



## benno1973 (2/11/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Nah, there's no way I'm ever going to do that to be honest. I've heard all the arguments but it's just a ridiculous thing. I purposefully hide powers points etc near TV's with TV cabinets and stuff like that so I don't see cables so turning stuff off at the power point isn't very practical. If the government really cares about this they'd make rooms have power switches like light switches, so you can just turn an entire rooms power off with one switch when you leave the room or whatever.
> 
> But with computers you don't want to do that.
> 
> Too complex. The real solution is to reduce the standby power used by devices.



Or use one of these remote controlled power boards? Or doesn't your tellie have an on/off switch on the TV itself? That generally means it doesn't use standby if you turn it off at the switch rather than the remote...


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## MarkBastard (2/11/10)

Thanks Snow that looks good. I'll have a think about where the best place to use it would be.



Kaiser Soze said:


> Or use one of these remote controlled power boards? Or doesn't your tellie have an on/off switch on the TV itself? That generally means it doesn't use standby if you turn it off at the switch rather than the remote...



My TV has an on-off switch but it only puts it into standby. I don't think any of the newer TV's have a real on/off switch any more.

The other thing is some things like to be connected all the time. Even the IQ box when you're not recording anything can receive entitlement updates overnight. If you for example went away for a month and had the IQ fully unplugged you could come home to find your Foxtel no longer works because your Foxtel card doesn't have the new entitlements on it. You'd have to call Foxtel to get them to resend the entitlements and could have to wait an hour or so for them to come down.

Most appliances these days just seem to be designed with standby in mind.


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## HeavyNova (2/11/10)

My bill is around $180 per quarter for 2 people in a small unit.

1 Fridge
1 Ferment Fridge
1 PC (on for average of 8 hours a day - in and out of 'sleep' mode)
1 CRT TV
1 Mid-powered amp (always runs with the TV max draw of 680W)
Energy saving bulbs

Gas hot water and cooktop.

I guess now that I've listed the stuff above it looks like I don't run much compared to others. I had a look last night and before the cost of power went up we were paying about $120 per quarter.


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## donburke (27/2/12)

just got my first electricity bill post glycol chiller and to my surprise the bill totalled just shy of $400 for the quarter

i was a little worried it would be phenomenal, but i feel a little relaxed now

glycol chiller on 24/7
6 keg chest freezer as keezer
fermenting fridge plus computer fan

a/c, food fridge, blow dryers, tv, dvd, stereos, lighting, exhaust fans, coffee machine, microwave, baby monitor, computer etc the rest

hws & cooktop gas


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## QldKev (27/2/12)

I want a $400 bill for a quarter's worth of power  


oh, fark... someone just flushed the toilet.
First of power for the pump from the rainwater tank to refill the toilet.
Then for the power to run the couple of pumps in the biocycle, and then the power for the aerator in the biocycle

There goes any power saving, and somehow this is greener living :blink: :wacko: 

Then I've got to pay the new crappy gillard carbon tax out of my income!


funny thing is, this new house costs nearly the same as my old place in town did. 
Aircons
In town : 2 
Here: 0

HWS
In town : Old school elec heating (not heat pump)
Here: Solar, and the booster has never been switched on yet, hope winter is not too cold or I may use more power



QldKev


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## Spork (27/2/12)

I dream of $400 / quarter power bills...
Just got bill today - summer, no heating (Use a woodheater anyway). No Aircon in this house. $656.09. Average daily consumption 28.527473 kwh - down from 29.755319 kwh same time last year. I wasn't HB'ing this time last year, conclusive evidence that brewing saves power.


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## Doubleplugga (27/2/12)

solar power. average bill 86 bucks a quarter. keg fridge always on and pool runs for 8 hours a day. it will be a bit more next time though as we used the aircon quite a bit this summer. only expecting around 240 bucks or so though so i cant really complain


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## cam89brewer (27/2/12)

Our power bill averages around about $170 - $180 a quarter in a 2 bedroom unit with 1 inside fridge , I keg fridge and 1 fermenting fridge as well as a decent sized fish tank... but that's where gas hot water and heating come in I suppose... but that is only about $30 - $40 every 2 months.


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## CONNOR BREWARE (27/2/12)

cats75 said:


> solar power. average bill 86 bucks a quarter. keg fridge always on and pool runs for 8 hours a day. it will be a bit more next time though as we used the aircon quite a bit this summer. only expecting around 240 bucks or so though so i cant really complain


Are you serious mate? That's bloody cheap consider you have 3 fridges don't ya. might have to get solar although I don't think it's I'll get the same per unit price you got. In mean time beers on you!


----------



## Doubleplugga (27/2/12)

yeah. forgot about the other 2 fridges!! got in early while the solar rebate was at its highest. one of the best choices we made.


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## donburke (27/2/12)

we recently renovated and this was our first full cycle of being in the home

lighting was changed to led downlights, at 8w each there is a saving

i set the a/c to 25 and use the economode, insulation helped here

the kegking kegerator has gone and replaced with the chesty, is there a saving here ?

i reckon the food fridge is the least efficient, being opened 100 times a day

and i read on this forum that a glycol chiller is expensive to run, what a load of hogwash


----------



## alfadog (27/2/12)

wow, and I complained when my power bill went to $180 after 3 months with the BM. I have just hardwired the gas to my keg fridge so that I do not have to open the fridge door 4-5 times a night, so I am hoping that this will save me some power.

Computer fans are on the way to be installed in my fridges to help the power bill too.


----------



## geoffd (27/2/12)

Hi Stowaway 2a+1c definitely less than 300a qtr, havent read all the responses so you might have got some of these replies already.

700 seems excessive
a couple of things spring to mind - 5 people lots of washing (especially if it's on a fairly hot setting) so maybe 400 is reasonable.

Clothes dryer if you use one, probably the most intensive unit in the house.
Dishwashers can be expensive too, I've never seen the sense in them as you need to clean the heavy stuff off by hand anyway.
Electric cooker v gas would distort the bill a fair bit, cooking with lids on significantly reduces energy required on the hobs.
also had a neighbour whose hot water system thermostat bust & it was keeping the water on boil, they were paying $900, & the stingy landlord refused to fix, they ended up leaving, I'd personally have lodged a claim as well. maybe check your boiler isnt set too high, though most run on gas so it's not likely your problem.
Have you any sparky mates that can help you investigate? seems to me you have either a faulty equipment or you are the most unecofreindly person ever or dont use gas?

Perhaps you should dress your family in hobo gear & collect some wood & huddle round an oil barrel., dont forget the mittens need to be fingerless.


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## hando (27/2/12)

we saved at least $200 per quarter by running the washing machine and dishwasher only after 10pm when power goes to off-peak rates.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (28/2/12)

Father Jack said:


> Perhaps you should dress your family in hobo gear & collect some wood & huddle round an oil barrel., dont forget the mittens need to be fingerless.


 This is what a lot of people do, its reality not fantasy.
Problem is I am very comfortable in my high energy using mansion to give a shit.
Not true, we are going solar and going to brew energy efficiently when possible.
Nev


----------



## Fish13 (28/2/12)

i almost died this quarter! from 186 to 356! although i did have the oven on for a 36hours at 50 degree's and the aircon on everyday... my mates on the other hand was $7.... solar credits bastard.


Nev you must get the meter to get the solar plugged back into the grid.


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## booargy (28/2/12)

fish13 said:


> Nev you must get the meter to get the solar plugged back into the grid.


or buy a chinese grid tie inverter and plug the solar panels into a socket outlet. Just don't produce more than you use otherwise it looks like you are stealing power. h34r:


----------



## alfadog (28/2/12)

hando said:


> we saved at least $200 per quarter by running the washing machine and dishwasher only after 10pm when power goes to off-peak rates.



Hando,

Unfortunately we in SEQ have to have a dedicated circuit to get off peak rates. While appliances can be run on off peak tariffs it is a PITA to set up.


----------



## mikk (28/2/12)

My latest quarterly bill was $400, which is the most it's ever been. Still, not too bad considering the 50L Braumeister has been getting a flogging, & the 6 fridges to run. 

And air-con on quite often, workshop lights on all the time etc. i guess i can't complain too much compared to the other massive bills posted on this thread, & those bills would have increased markedly since those posts were made, i imagine, do to the electricity prices going up quite steeply.


----------



## ianh (28/2/12)

My latest quarterly bill is $541 and that is after a $105 pensioner discount for the two of us, used 25 KWH per day with no heating or cooling.

Tasmania should have the cheapest electricity prices as the vast majority is produced by hydro, but because of incompetence/admin and no competition we have the dearest.

When we have finished complaining about electricity costs, we can start on how much our water bill has gone up and continues to do so.


----------



## Fish13 (28/2/12)

wa's price has gone up by 60% since the liberals have come in. All becuase of the increase in the amount of fifo workers increasing the average wage but the worst thing is synergy still posted a massive profit and the ceo got a huge fugging pay rise too.... work that out and they say they lose money on it with out the increase and the governemnt back up. the hardship cases for paying the bill has gone up too.. But the increase had to be done to pay for the solar powers being fitted to houses the say....


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## the_new_darren (28/2/12)

booargy said:


> or buy a chinese grid tie inverter and plug the solar panels into a socket outlet. Just don't produce more than you use otherwise it looks like you are stealing power. h34r:



Sounds interesting. Where do I get one of these?

tnd


----------



## Nick JD (28/2/12)

the_new_darren said:


> Sounds interesting. Where do I get one of these?
> 
> tnd



If it was economically viable to save money with solar panels the world's energy problems would be already solved.

False economy.


----------



## Snow (28/2/12)

Nick JD said:


> If it was economically viable to save money with solar panels the world's energy problems would be already solved.
> 
> False economy.



Actually, in local situations, it is more than economically viable - it is profitable at the moment. Due to Govt subsidised feed-in tarifs and the rising price of electricity (tipped to double in the next 3 years), it is affordable to go down the solar PV route. 

Granted, on a global scale, it is currently unsustainable due to the resources required to provide every household with panels and inverters, but hey - it works at my house! I have 4.2KW on the roof and just got a cheque for $200 from Origin for the last quarter. Even factoring in rainy days, short winter days, etc, at current feed-in rates, the system will pay for itself in 6 years or so. And that's running 5 fridges and a tank pump. After that, I'll be making a profit. 

The savings from installing solar PV are more than the interest you would pay on the loan for the system, so it makes no sense NOT to have solar PV if you live in a sunshine-rich country. Obviously if you live in a deep valley or your roof is covered in shade all day or you live in melbourne it's a different story h34r: 

Cheers - Snow.


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## Airgead (28/2/12)

Nick JD said:


> If it was economically viable to save money with solar panels the world's energy problems would be already solved.
> 
> False economy.



Even without government rebates, utility scale solar is already at almost grid parity with peaking gas... On a domestic scale solar will be grid parity with coal inside 5 years. Germany (which isn't known for its sunshine) is already 30% solar and plans 100% renewable by 2050.

The problem with solar isn't cost its storage. That's what is slowing utility scale adoption. Lots of interesting work with compressed gas and molten salt storage being done and there are plants running in Europe providing solar baseload power. 

The initial investment is high (which is why its slow starting) but once up, the production costs are pretty much 0.

4Kw on my roof and a $300 credit every quarter. That's after running 2 internet businesses and associated servers from home as well as the brewing (4 fridges.. ouch). Best decision I ever made.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## MAH (28/2/12)

I can't believe some of the figures being quoted, like using an average of 28kWh per day. 

When we moved into our new house our electricity bill hit a peak of 11.8 kWh per day. This was a Jan-March quarter and pretty hot. We were using the air-con, which is a massive unit and I regret installing one large compressor instead of 2 or 3 smaller compressors. This summer has been much cooler and our last quarter was back down to 5.6 kWh per day, which is a little lower than what we have used each quarter for the past several years that I've been keeping records. 

I just can't understand how people use so much energy. I'm not a hippy living in the bush, sitting around a single light bulb, powered by a converted bicycle, we live in a large modern inner city town house. We have all the mod-cons, even luxuries like a touch screen computer mounted on the kitchen benchtop and a large refrigerated wine cabinet. We try (but often fail) to stick with the mantra _Reduce, Reuse, Recycle_. Reduce is first because it's most important. Some of you guys need to seriously reduce your electricity usage.

When we built our house, we had it pre-wired for solar panels, which we finally installed when we had more savings. Last quarter was the first full quarter of production. We made 1119 kWh of energy and used 519 kWh. This meant a cheque of $383.53. More important than the cheque is that we created a surplus of 600 kWh of low/no emissions energy that could be used by others.


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## QldKev (28/2/12)

Are solar panels covered by insurance if they are damaged in a hail storm ?

serious question. Just thinking that could hit the pay of period hard.


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## Airgead (28/2/12)

QldKev said:


> Are solar panels covered by insurance if they are damaged in a hail storm ?
> 
> serious question. Just thinking that could hit the pay of period hard.



Yep. Considered part of the building so covered by the storm damage clause of your insurance.

Cheers
Dave


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## robbo5253 (28/2/12)

QldKev said:


> Are solar panels covered by insurance if they are damaged in a hail storm ?
> 
> serious question. Just thinking that could hit the pay of period hard.



Most policies will cover them for Storm (hail) but exclude atmospheric conditions such as frost & mildew.

Cheers

Robbo


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## Amber Fluid (28/2/12)

WoW... I am astonished at how low most of your bills are. My bill for a 1/4 is usually between $1000 and $1200. I'll need to have a look at the last one when I get home.

Sheesh... I'd kill for a bill as low as some mentioned in this thread!


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## donburke (28/2/12)

Amber Fluid said:


> WoW... I am astonished at how low most of your bills are. My bill for a 1/4 is usually between $1000 and $1200. I'll need to have a look at the last one when I get home.
> 
> Sheesh... I'd kill for a bill as low as some mentioned in this thread!



why is it so high ? what are you running ?


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## mikk (28/2/12)

donburke said:


> why is it so high ? what are you running ?



He must be forgetting about the bank of 40 UV Growing Lamps in the spare room?!


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## donburke (28/2/12)

mikk said:


> He must be forgetting about the bank of 40 UV Growing Lamps in the spare room?!




right, didnt realise it was a place of business


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## komodo (28/2/12)

Re insurance Surely you could nominate them if they weren't.
Hell I have my CD collection nominated. If I can nominate that then surely solar panels can be.

I cant do solar at my place because I have a great honkin' gum tree that covers 2/3 of my roof with its canopy
I use an average of 19.25kW a day. I live in a 17 square (157sq/mt) brick veneer home with a klip-lok style deck roof sheeting in a light color with a 27.5degree pitch coupled with cathederal ceilings throughout most of the building.
But being a home built in 1986/7 its not thermally efficient. Single glazed windows made of oregan. Foil wrap insulation to the roof and walls. No insulation to the cielings (and no space through most of the house to put any). No floor insulation (house is on stumps). 

MAH the reality is that to make my house energy efficient as your modern town house I would need to rip the lid off drop the cielings a few inches to get a cavity deep enough to insulate. Rip all the plaster off the walls and use a batt style insulation in the walls. Insulate the floor, replace all the windows with aluclad type units or uPVC - preferably double glazed. Replace my ducted heating unit with a more efficient unit and better insulated ducting. Change my inverter reverse cycle AC to either ducted or several smaller units. 
Fact is that to do all that I'd be up for the best part of $80k on a house thats only worth $450k and is only 25 years old. For around 3 times the price of modifying my house I could knock the existing dwelling over and build a super efficient home of a larger size that I could design with solar and other energy saving solutions in mind. But the reality is that its just not worth it. 
Admittedly I could change all my down lights from halogen to LED (I've got about 30 of them). But they are hardly ever on except the kitchen lights which are on whilst my partner is cooking.

My parents have a home thats around 60sq (560sq/mt) no solar but it has hydronic floor heating, ducted evap cooling, good insulation, good thermal mass (poured earth construction), miglass double glazed windows etc. Their house costs them LESS per quarter for 5 adults (mum, dad, my 25 yr old brother and my grand parents) to live there than my partener and I (working full time only home from 7:30PM - 8am) to live in our house. They have 3 plasma TVs on nearly constantly, 3 PCs, the house is light up like a christmas tree and theres no need to ever wear a jumper in their house. They have an AGA stove thats on all the time (quite litterally - you dont turn it off).
But the difference is that their house was built using modern materials and was designed to be (some what) energy efficient. My house @ 25 years old was built with no thought towards energy efficiency. 
You cant just assume that people with high utility bills are wasting energy because they dont care - many dont have a financially viable alternative.


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## Amber Fluid (28/2/12)

donburke said:


> why is it so high ? what are you running ?



5 Bedroom house
2 kids
2 air conditioners (1 upstairs, 1 down stairs)

3 freezers
2 fridges
1 keezer
1 FV fridge fulltime
1 FV part time
1 FV yet to be used

Washing machine and dryer is used everyday

65" plasma
42" plasma
28" LCD
Huge Stereo/HiFi/Theatre system

All the usual things like stove/oven/microwave, coffee machine and other kitchen appliances. No gas where I am so all run on power.

Price for power is about .21c per kW and .23c for another tarriff. I'll need to dig out the last power bill when I get home to confirm.


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## mikk (28/2/12)

Komodo said:


> You cant just assume that people with high utility bills are wasting energy because they dont care - many dont have a financially viable alternative.



True, but my place is about 370 sqm & a sauna in summer/freezer in winter. Reverse cycle split system air cons (2 of) are on very frequently, & 6 fridges are on at various temperatures all the time.

$1000 a quarter for other peoples bills mean that i could run 4 air conditioners & 12 fridges plus the normal household appliances/hot water/clothes dryer & it STILL wouldn't cost that much. Just seems a bit wrong, really, doesn't it?!


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## Amber Fluid (28/2/12)

I find it amusing that some people think that just because something is not the same as them then something else must be wrong.

I assure you there are no grow lights anywhere and the fact remains that this is what the power bill is.

Do you use gas at home?... if so then that is one big difference.
Do you go to bed early?.... if so then that is another.
I guarantee your house is not as hot as what mine gets in the summer. I have had a heat analysis done on the property which gets direct sun all day and the loungeroom's external wall is all standard glass as is about 2.5 meters of the roof. The kitchen is butted to the lounge and that too has an external wall that is all standard glass. We were advised to get tinted double glazed windows and use external roller covers for the windows. That's is all well and good if you have the money for it. Unfortunately I am not in a position to have this done at the moment so we are in a catch 22 situation.

The fact remains, what I mentioned above is our standard bill with no illegit activities. It is a bit hard to prove what activities are conducted so you can only take my word for that. However, it is easy to prove my billing costs which I can do when I get home.


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## Airgead (28/2/12)

Amber Fluid said:


> 5 Bedroom house
> 2 kids
> 2 air conditioners (1 upstairs, 1 down stairs)
> 
> ...



The dryer every day won't be helping. Those things are terrible for your power bills. The other things that bumps up the power is aircon. Especially if its on a lot. You don't mention how often you use them. Did a power audit on a place once that has $2000/quarter bills. mostly because they ran the aircon all day, every day. With a big house that's only partially occupied (5 bedroom 2 kids) you may well be heating/cooling a bunch of unused space. Make sure the doors to the unused (or less frequently used) rooms are shut and you may find the aircon bills come down.

If you are on a time of day meter you can run the washer and dryer after 9pm to get the lower rates. if you're on a fixed tarriff there's nothing you can do there.

I'm assuming you are on electric hot water. That usually accounts for 40% of your power usage. Make sure its on off peak if its a storage type. You can replace with a heat pump type which is much more efficient or solar with electric boost when the system needs replacing. 

I'd also check the insulation in the roof and see if its up to scratch (or present).

Cheers
Dave

Edit: oh yeah... and if you have problems with radiant heat through glass, an external shade or planting a shade screen can make a massive difference. My house has huge windows facing west. used to be an oven. A few plantings later and we don't use the aircon any more.


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## stux (28/2/12)

Aircon, Dryers and Pools.

These are a few of the expensive things!


I'm in the same situation, power bill of between 1000 and 2000$ per quarter. (Before solar)

My 1.5KW paid for itself already... (66c GFIT FTW)


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## Morrie0069 (28/2/12)

I've come to the conclusion that women cost a lot to run!  

Just wondering what kind of tarrifs everyone is paying? In Tassie they are:

Standard residential rates

*Light and Power Tariff 31 *
Fixed Charges 89.145 /day 
Energy Rate (all units) 25.132 /unit 

Note: Curtilage conditions may apply

*Hot Water Tariff 41 *
Fixed Charges 17.266 /day 
Energy Rate (all units) 15.157 /unit 

*The Aurora Heating Discount (HydroHeat) (hot water and space heating)* - Tariff 42 *
Fixed Charges 17.266 /day 
Energy Rate (all units) 15.157 /unit 

* a minimum output of 3.5 kW in the main living area applies for space heating under HydroHeat.

*OffPeak with afternoon boost period Tariff 61 *
Fixed Charges 21.878 /day 
Energy Rate (all units) 12.202 /unit 

* available for a period of at least 9 hours between 8pm of every day and 7am of the following day and 2 hours between 1pm 4.30pm of every day.

*OffPeak, night period only Tariff 62 *
Fixed Charges 21.878 /day 
Energy Rate (all units) 11.492 /unit 

With the fixed charges, just by having the power connected is costing around $120 a quarter.

Cheers,

Morrie


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## Mayor of Mildura (28/2/12)

I've got a 5 bedroom low set home in Mildura. 2 Adults 2 Kids. 

Our last quarterly bill was around $750. Middle of summer. Wife and kids home from school with the Aircon (ducted refrigerated) Cranking. My brewing usage (urn, 3x fridges) pales in comparison. 

Our consumption will drop in the next quarter with the better weather. Then it will go back up again in winter with aircon running (for heating).

It's interesting that our power bills aren't much different to our last place (tiny old weatherboard on stumps). This has a lot to do with superior insulation and the way that the house is positioned on the block (long part of the house east-west).


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## Amber Fluid (28/2/12)

Airgead said:


> The dryer every day won't be helping. Those things are terrible for your power bills. The other things that bumps up the power is aircon. Especially if its on a lot. You don't mention how often you use them. Did a power audit on a place once that has $2000/quarter bills. mostly because they ran the aircon all day, every day. With a big house that's only partially occupied (5 bedroom 2 kids) you may well be heating/cooling a bunch of unused space. Make sure the doors to the unused (or less frequently used) rooms are shut and you may find the aircon bills come down.
> 
> If you are on a time of day meter you can run the washer and dryer after 9pm to get the lower rates. if you're on a fixed tarriff there's nothing you can do there.
> 
> ...



Yes my house faces west too. Here is a pic (albeit from the real estate before I moved in but the house hasn't changed, only the furniture) of the west side where you can clearly see the lounge window on the top floor in the middle.






Here is a shot from inside the lounge for a better idea of what I am up against:






You can see the pissy little air condition in the not so good spot where the last owners had it installed as well. There is one of these downstairs too.

Unforunately I have no choice regarding the use of the dryer, the wife has it on everyday to dry the kids clothes (3yo and nearly 2yo).

All our services are on power. We have no gas, solar or any other power alternative.
Unfortunately, due to the house design, there are almost no doors so we are not able to close any that would make significant difference. Our hall way has a huge staircase in the middle which is a large void area so we aren't able to shut this area off either.
The air cond is on everyday, if not to cool then duiring winter is to heat and the 2 bedrooms, Rumpas and laundry downstairs have their doors closed most of the time.

We have checked the roof insulation and it appears to be ok.

thanks for your response Dave


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## Amber Fluid (28/2/12)

mayor of mildura said:


> I've got a 5 bedroom low set home in Mildura. 2 Adults 2 Kids.
> 
> Our last quarterly bill was around $750. Middle of summer. Wife and kids home from school with the Aircon (ducted refrigerated) Cranking. My brewing usage (urn, 3x fridges) pales in comparison.
> 
> ...



What heats your hot water?
Are you on gas?
It sounds like you are in a similar situation as me. However, I assume your power is slightly cheaper and maybe you are running your stove and hotwater on gas?
I am also a late nighter and often fall asleep in front of TV (65" plasma with Amps, recorders and other players and a rather large speaker system, Jamo Concert 809 series full surround :icon_drool2: ) which doesn't help. i.e. I climbed into bed at 4am this morning having dosed off at 1am with everything still running. 


EDIT: I am not trying to be a prick justifying my needs and certainly I really don't need to here, I am only trying to work out where I can save on electricity costs without the need to spend a large some of money.


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## MAH (28/2/12)

I wouldn't describe my house as energy efficient. It's 236 sqm much of which is open plan, including a large void between the first and second floor. We have huge amounts of glass, 6m wide balcony windows and sliding doors facing east catching all the morning sun, west kitchen and bedroom windows catching the afternoon sun and a centre courtyard with two storey glass windows that face north. The windows are not double glazed. The roof space is really small, there is no way I could crawl through the narrowest section, even on my stomach (there is the minimum legislated insulation in the roof). To top things off, the carpenter on the build was shit and left ridiculous gaps around doors etc. 

Admittedly we did install external blinds over the centre courtyard and west facing windows.

My old townhouse was built in 1974. About 120 sqm, 3 stories all open plan, so basically it had about 8m ceilings. The bedroom was on the top floor. The building faced north with enormous windows, no external shading and a dark tiled balcony that acted as a heat sink, re-radiating the day's heat back into the house. There was virtually no gap in the ceiling and no insulation (I eventually had some blow-in insulation installed, which wasn't expensive). That house was stinking hot in summer and freezing in winter. But my power bill was basically the same as now.

Energy conservation has more to do with behaviour than building design. Even the most energy efficient house will cost a lot to run if you crank the air-con all the time, or use clothes dryers instead of washing lines etc. 

Reduce, Reuse, Recycle. 

Reducing and reusing saves money so you can afford to make investments in other areas.


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## Mayor of Mildura (28/2/12)

Amber Fluid said:


> What heats your hot water?
> Are you on gas?
> It sounds like you are in a similar situation as me. However, I assume your power is slightly cheaper and maybe you are running your stove and hotwater on gas?
> I am also a late nighter and often fall asleep in front of TV (65" plasma with Amps, recorders and other players and a rather large speaker system, Jamo Concert 809 series full surround :icon_drool2: ) which doesn't help. i.e. I climbed into bed at 4am this morning having dosed off at 1am with everything still running.


Electric hot water. Stove is gas (bottled as natural gas isn't available in our street).
After seeing pictures of your house and also reading that your wife and children are home most of the time it would explain the high bills. Those big windows would also be a killer. Have you considered tinting?


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## benno1973 (28/2/12)

Wow, I'm stunned at some of these numbers. Thank god mine doesn't even come close. We have solar panels (3.7kW) and average a credit of $75/month. Each year the power company sends me a cheque, so I feel quite fortunate. We have a gas cooktop and solar HWS, and we don't use a drier. Still, I have 5 fridges and 4 freezers, not all constantly running, but certainly chewing through the power.

We are quite lucky in that we have quite a solar passive house and 2 kids who have learned to turn out lights  .


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## Amber Fluid (28/2/12)

Yes, I have honestly considered tinting but I guess I haven't taken any action on it which is my doing. I had previously, under recommendation, considered the tinted double glazed windows but the expense ran well above $20K so just never thought about it again.

I agree maybe I should just look at tinting what I already have.


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## Liam_snorkel (28/2/12)

Not being sarcastic, but in summer can you open the windows and turn on a fan? 
That's what we do in QLD.


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## Airgead (28/2/12)

Amber Fluid said:


> Yes, I have honestly considered tinting but I guess I haven't taken any action on it which is my doing. I had previously, under recommendation, considered the tinted double glazed windows but the expense ran well above $20K so just never thought about it again.
> 
> I agree maybe I should just look at tinting what I already have.



Tinting is expensive but a shadecloth blind is pretty cheap and can cut radiant heat through a window by 80%. Curtains can block a lot of heat.

The question with all this isn't "how can I afford it" its "can I afford not to". If you can cut your bills back to a manageable level, those initial costs will pay for themselves very quickly. If you do nothing, you are committing to giving a bug bunch of your income to the power company and that will get worse not better as power prices continue to rise (expected to double in the next 5-10 years due to network upgrade costs).

You can do a lot with not much money then use the savings to invest in further energy savings.

As a start, I know its hard when you have to dry clothes for small kids but a drying rack in front of those windows would dry them pretty quick smart. Use the heat to your advantage.

Poor house design doesn't help but there is still a lot you can do. My place is a 50 year old west facing weatherboard place. Big west facing windows. No insulation (when we bought it). It has taken 5 years and a lot of effort but hasn't cost us much at all. The biggest expense was roof ventilation and some very serious insulation and that was only a few hundred $. The rest is all blinds and garden plantings.

Shadecloth blinds, shade plantings. All pretty cheap and can make a big difference.

Cheers
Dave


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## donburke (28/2/12)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Not being sarcastic, but in summer can you open the windows and turn on a fan?
> That's what we do in QLD.




but that would let the cold air in during summer in tassie


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## cdbrown (28/2/12)

Our bill is around $600 per quarter which is 49 units per day (from the bill). Hard to get the usage down when the wife is home all day looking after a 3yo and a 4mo. Too many mozies in the area to open the windows (most open out and can't install fly screens) so the reverse cycle get's a good work out. Electric cook top doesn't seem efficient so will be swapping it out for a gas one soon. Had looked into getting panels but as there are no subsidies in WA anymore and you only earn 7c to export then is costs 21c to import, it's not economical to install. If it was calculated as net import or export over the day then I'd look more closely at installing but exporting power at such a low rate only to pay 3x to get it back is rubbish.


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## Airgead (28/2/12)

cdbrown said:


> . Too many mozies in the area to open the windows (most open out and can't install fly screens)



Yeah you can. All our windows open out and all have screens. They just fit inside the window. 

Cheers
Dave


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## cdbrown (28/2/12)

Airgead said:


> Yeah you can. All our windows open out and all have screens. They just fit inside the window.
> 
> Cheers
> Dave



Our windows have the same type of latch shown at the bottom of this window - http://www.woodenwindowslondon.com/image_l...ig_DSCN2696.jpg


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## Aces High (28/2/12)

cdbrown said:


> Our bill is around $600 per quarter which is 49 units per day (from the bill). Hard to get the usage down when the wife is home all day looking after a 3yo and a 4mo. Too many mozies in the area to open the windows (most open out and can't install fly screens) so the reverse cycle get's a good work out. Electric cook top doesn't seem efficient so will be swapping it out for a gas one soon. Had looked into getting panels but as there are no subsidies in WA anymore and you only earn 7c to export then is costs 21c to import, it's not economical to install. If it was calculated as net import or export over the day then I'd look more closely at installing but exporting power at such a low rate only to pay 3x to get it back is rubbish.




They days of exporting and making money for solar are gone, unless you signed up on the old scheme. It doesn't mean its not viable, it just means you size a system to reduce your bill rather than export to the grid (here in WA anyway). While the aircon is running during the day the panels are also producing power and offsetting the aircon. Power is going to continue to go up and solar is flatlining in manufacturing costs and may even go down slightly, but you get a reduced power bill from the day you put the system in.


I work for a multinational solar distributor, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but i do belive its worthwhile.


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## MAH (28/2/12)

Airgead said:


> Shadecloth blinds, shade plantings. All pretty cheap and can make a big difference.



Good advice. These small, low cost changes will have some of the biggest impact. External shading has the added benefit of not only keeping heat out during the day, but it lets built up heat escape the house at night. 

Internal blinds are good in winter. Leave them open during the day to let the warmth in the house, then close at night to help keep the heat in.

Next step would be roof insulation. More expensive but also has a big impact.

Solar panels should be one of the last things to consider. They're expensive and don't reduce your usage of energy, but simply replace your usage.

Do everything you can to reduce first.


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## Amber Fluid (28/2/12)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Not being sarcastic, but in summer can you open the windows and turn on a fan?
> That's what we do in QLD.


Unfortunately the windows in the loungeroom are sealed and can not be opened as are the windows in the roof. The ones next to them, in the kitchen, are actually a sliding door. We can't open this (unless we are present) in fear the kids will get out as we have steps on the deck from the kitchen that they can fall down/over on and the 3yo likes to climb so not taking the risk for her to climb on the table and chairs outside and possibly over the rail. When the kids get a little older then yes, by all means we will have these doors open for sure.



Airgead said:


> Tinting is expensive but a shadecloth blind is pretty cheap and can cut radiant heat through a window by 80%. Curtains can block a lot of heat.
> 
> The question with all this isn't "how can I afford it" its "can I afford not to". If you can cut your bills back to a manageable level, those initial costs will pay for themselves very quickly. If you do nothing, you are committing to giving a bug bunch of your income to the power company and that will get worse not better as power prices continue to rise (expected to double in the next 5-10 years due to network upgrade costs).
> 
> ...



Yeah I agree with most you have here. We currently have venitians in the lounge but they are thin and fixed pretty awkwardly to the window. The window is all glass so it is really impossible to hang are curtain from the lounge.
Not only this but the TV is setup where the window is and it takes up almost all the room. (65")

We also have 2 drying racks (clothes horses we call them) that seem to be always full as it is. because of the location of our tv then it is impractical to have them at that window. nevertheless, they are located at the other end of the kitchen and dry clothes relatively quickly there.

Shade plantings may be a good idea on the deck (in pots) outside the kitchen but impossible out side the lounge window because it is on the 2nd floor.

I am thankful for some of these ideas and will look into employing one or two for sure. The photos I provided earlier are only photos taken before we moved in. As I said the furniture is all different now obviously but I can take a few photos tonight of the situation to make it easier to understand.


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## Snow (28/2/12)

Amber Fluid said:


> I find it amusing that some people think that just because something is not the same as them then something else must be wrong.
> 
> I assure you there are no grow lights anywhere and the fact remains that this is what the power bill is.
> 
> ...



Sooo... if you get so much sun, why don't you put in 4-5KW of solar PV? You don't need your own money - the bank and govt will give you plenty and at $1000 a qtr, your savings will more than cover the interest (and principal) paymets on the loan. 

Cheers - Snow.


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## Rowy (28/2/12)

Airgead said:


> Even without government rebates, utility scale solar is already at almost grid parity with peaking gas... On a domestic scale solar will be grid parity with coal inside 5 years. Germany (which isn't known for its sunshine) is already 30% solar and plans 100% renewable by 2050.
> 
> The problem with solar isn't cost its storage. That's what is slowing utility scale adoption. Lots of interesting work with compressed gas and molten salt storage being done and there are plants running in Europe providing solar baseload power.
> 
> ...



Germany if not now very soon will have to import power from France due to their decommissioning of nuclear and their relliance on solar. Sorry the technology isn't even close yet. The reason why the bills have been going up all over Australia is the Governments commitment to 20% base load power from renewables by 2020. Fact not fiction can quote sources if you care.


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## Barndillo (28/2/12)

fish13 said:


> But the increase had to be done to pay for the solar powers being fitted to houses the say....



Same dribble the NSW government has been saying.


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## Aces High (28/2/12)

Rowy said:


> Germany if not now very soon will have to import power from France due to their decommissioning of nuclear and their relliance on solar. Sorry the technology isn't even close yet. The reason why the bills have been going up all over Australia is the Governments commitment to 20% base load power from renewables by 2020. Fact not fiction can quote sources if you care.




Actually thats fiction. The reason why power is going up is because every government for the last 20 years bled even cent they could out of the electrictity companies without ever putting any money into the grid. At the same time they kept prices artificially low because they were to scared to put the prices up and cop a backlash from the public and maybe lose office over it.

It actually only costs about 7c to produce a kilowatt of electricity, but they are now running constant maintaince programs just to keep the grid running, let alone upgrade it. Its much easier to lay the blame outside their own circle and let the pitchfork waving crowd fill in the gaps themselves


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## Rowy (28/2/12)

Aces High said:


> Actually thats fiction. The reason why power is going up is because every government for the last 20 years bled even cent they could out of the electrictity companies without ever putting any money into the grid. At the same time they kept prices artificially low because they were to scared to put the prices up and cop a backlash from the public and maybe lose office over it.
> 
> It actually only costs about 7c to produce a kilowatt of electricity, but they are now running constant maintaince programs just to keep the grid running, let alone upgrade it. Its much easier to lay the blame outside their own circle and let the pitchfork waving crowd fill in the gaps themselves




So your saying it costs the same to produce power from coal as it does from renewables such as wind and solar I take it?


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## pokolbinguy (28/2/12)

I would love to drop our elec bill. We are in NSW do rates are high thanks to energy Aus but aside of that as 3 adults we use about 20kwh per day. If I can get that down <10 would be great but we have electric everything


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## Nick JD (28/2/12)

Why not just get an extension cord from your neighbour's house and connect it to your "invisible solar array" and pipe it back to the power company to get 50c per kwH when it only costs a fraction of that. 

Split the profits with your neighbour.

If that is possible, it says a lot about the situation here. 

A bit like going down to your bottlo with 1kg of grain and walking out with a box of piss.

False economy.


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## booargy (28/2/12)

I grew up in a solar powered house and anyone who thinks it doesn't work doesn't know what they are talking about. In 2007 the solar industry was worth 20 billion. it does not need funding any more and eventually will be cheaper than coal.
Base load is a term used for generators. Any generator needs a minimum load to operate efficiently. A coal fired power station needs about 30% load to operate efficently. So if you have a 600MW Generator you need to have a load of 200MW before it can run on coal. below this it has to run on fuel oil which is big big dollars about a million dollars for 24hrs. 
In a remote area power system there is always a generator to provide peak load. Or spend a fortune on batteries. A grid tie system needs no batteries as the power station is the battery. Renewables can't provide peak loads. So unless they come up with really good batteries (or some funding http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areva_Solar)coal is here to stay.
Germany will have to import power which will be cheaper in the end because they won't have maintenance costs of a very expensive machine. Nuclear power is uneconomical when the whole fuel cycle is taken into account. Chernobyl still has to be maintained but produces nothing. 
Your power bills are going up to fund some non-productive parasites salary and bonus. Meanwhile our power stations is going to shit because they have to turn a profit at the expense of maintenance. 
(end rant)


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## Nick JD (28/2/12)

booargy said:


> I grew up in a solar powered house and anyone who thinks it doesn't work doesn't know what they are talking about.
> 
> In a remote area power system there is always a generator to provide peak load.



Oh, the irony.


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## booargy (28/2/12)

Nick JD said:


> Oh, the irony.



Yes it was never started. Oh the irony.


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## stef (28/2/12)

I could be wrong, but i believe Plasma TVs use a heap more power than LCD's too...

I undertook a whole of life Cost/Benefit analysis a couple of years ago comparing wind power and coal (for a final year uni project). Coal was so much cheaper in the short run that it almost made the wind argument redunant. Obviously, however, the long term is completely different. I believe solar is generally more viable than wind power, but i think either of these are going to take a while to get going (IE, as the technology improves, so does the short term outlook for the energy source). 

My wife and I just bought our first house, and our power bills are stuff all. Work 12 hours a day and dont do much when we are home... My work sells PV, so i'll be looking into it, but i imagine for the upfront cost, it would take us 15 years or something to make it worthwhile...


----------



## QldKev (28/2/12)

booargy said:


> I grew up in a solar powered house and anyone who thinks it doesn't work doesn't know what they are talking about. In 2007 the solar industry was worth 20 billion. it does not need funding any more and eventually will be cheaper than coal.
> Base load is a term used for generators. Any generator needs a minimum load to operate efficiently. A coal fired power station needs about 30% load to operate efficently. So if you have a 600MW Generator you need to have a load of 200MW before it can run on coal. below this it has to run on fuel oil which is big big dollars about a million dollars for 24hrs.
> In a remote area power system there is always a generator to provide peak load. Or spend a fortune on batteries. A grid tie system needs no batteries as the power station is the battery. Renewables can't provide peak loads. So unless they come up with really good batteries (or some funding http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areva_Solar)coal is here to stay.
> Germany will have to import power which will be cheaper in the end because they won't have maintenance costs of a very expensive machine. Nuclear power is uneconomical when the whole fuel cycle is taken into account. Chernobyl still has to be maintained but produces nothing.
> ...




Thats why Australia has Tassy, so we can setup all the neclear power station somewhere


----------



## geoffd (28/2/12)

grid decentralisation and cabon fuel efficiency will be the next big thing before clean energy takes over or at least in tandem while it grows & improves. 

there is an Aussie company at the forefront, but as usual our federal govt is allergic to doing anything that might replace coal. It is gaining traction in the rest of the developed world, Germany is probably the fastest developing market, all still at infancy stage though in terms of scale & unit cost.

http://www.cfcl.com.au/


I really hate the garbage that Australia cant do anything to climate change whilst being the largest exporter of coal in the world, it's not about our (albiet high) per capita usage, we're the proverbial "coke" dealers.


----------



## booargy (28/2/12)

QldKev said:


> Thats why Australia has Tassy, so we can setup all the neclear power station somewhere



They must already have them. with the rumors and all. h34r:


----------



## Rowy (28/2/12)

Father Jack said:


> grid decentralisation and cabon fuel efficiency will be the next big thing before clean energy takes over or at least in tandem while it grows & improves.
> 
> there is an Aussie company at the forefront, but as usual our federal govt is allergic to doing anything that might replace coal. It is gaining traction in the rest of the developed world, Germany is probably the fastest developing market, all still at infancy stage though in terms of scale & unit cost.
> 
> ...



Sorry Father but these days more people believe climate change is crap than believe otherwise. (Refer Newspoll, Galaxy and Nielsen) To stop exporting coal is to have an entire economy collapse with thousands and thousands of people unemployed overnight. There is no clean energy jobs to pick even a small fraction of them up, particularly those without many skills. The so called clean energy jobs particulalry those in manufacturing with be offshore. This is because we won't have cheap power anymore which was the only advantage our manufacturers had. With all due respect over my dead body!


----------



## stakka82 (28/2/12)

Rowy said:


> Sorry Father but these days more people believe climate change is crap than believe otherwise.



see also, more people believe that god/allah/yahweh exist than believe otherwise...


----------



## leiothrix (28/2/12)

I think with climate change you need to split that into anthropogenic climate change, and climate change in general.

The former is debatable, the latter kinda isn't.


----------



## Rowy (28/2/12)

stakka82 said:


> see also, more people believe that god/allah/yahweh exist than believe otherwise...



decreasing in the Western World just like those believing in Global Warming / Climate Change or what ever suits the agenda, anyway thats yesterdays news. Ocean acidification will be the new big thing for the doomsayers...............watch this space.........


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## stux (29/2/12)

Father Jack said:


> grid decentralisation and cabon fuel efficiency will be the next big thing before clean energy takes over or at least in tandem while it grows & improves.
> 
> there is an Aussie company at the forefront, but as usual our federal govt is allergic to doing anything that might replace coal. It is gaining traction in the rest of the developed world, Germany is probably the fastest developing market, all still at infancy stage though in terms of scale & unit cost.
> 
> ...



Love the BlueGen, interestingly they're getting a lot more support from the German government!


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## Airgead (29/2/12)

Rowy said:


> Germany if not now very soon will have to import power from France due to their decommissioning of nuclear and their relliance on solar. Sorry the technology isn't even close yet. The reason why the bills have been going up all over Australia is the Governments commitment to 20% base load power from renewables by 2020. Fact not fiction can quote sources if you care.



Actually... no.

Over the last year, through the winter cold snap, Germany was exporting power to nuclear [powered France to make up for their shortfall...

About 5% of your power bill increase is due to renewables. the rest is due to "network charges" which is power companies upgrading the network to cope with higher peak demand (caused mostly by domestic aircon) on a couple of days a year. Power costs will double in the next 10 years at current rates and 90% of that will be network costs. I can give you the IPART reports if you like...

Renewables are the future.

Cheers
Dave


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## Liam_snorkel (29/2/12)

Rowy said:


> Ocean acidification will be the new big thing for the doomsayers


it already is, and I'm no doomsayer.


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## D.Moore92 (29/2/12)

Have you gentlemen had a look at energywatch.com.au i havent used it but ive heard a lot of good things abought it with some people saving a lot of money. If you ring them up they will let you know if there are any cheaper energy companys you can use. It might be worth having a look at.


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## [email protected] (29/2/12)

D Moore said:


> Have you gentlemen had a look at energywatch.com.au i havent used it but ive heard a lot of good things abought it with some people saving a lot of money. If you ring them up they will let you know if there are any cheaper energy companys you can use. It might be worth having a look at.



Yeah i tried them, useless....they put me onto Energy Aus from current supplier True energy, turns out TE owns EA anyway and after all the BS the prices were not that different and after the rises at the start of the year they would have been pretty much inline with TE.

I went out on my own and got dodo, heaps cheaper, gotta love the bulk buying power of the chinese.
I then get TE ringing me saying that dodo wont support my meter type and i should stick with them or EA i could end up with no electricity being supplied to my home ect..do i want them to cancel the transfer for me??

SO after some stuffing about i got assurance in writing from dodo that they would have no problem supplying me, so TE just using BS scare tactics to try and keep on there high pricing...


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## MAH (29/2/12)

Father Jack said:


> cabon fuel efficiency will be the next big thing before clean energy takes over or at least in tandem while it grows & improves.



Bingo!

Forget all the climate doomsayers vs sceptics nonsense, fuel efficiency is a good in itself. Reduce the amount of energy you use and you save money, which can then be used for other purposes or saved. This is a good irrespective of any other impact.

More efficient production, distribution and use of energy will have a greater impact in the short term than renewables. Renewables are the ultimate goal, but energy efficiency is the important step as it will also make renewables more viable.


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## MarkBastard (29/2/12)

Really good article on power if anyone wants to read it http://www.theglobalmail.org/investigation...wer-bill-surge/


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## QldKev (29/2/12)

Morrie0069 said:


> I've come to the conclusion that women cost a lot to run!
> 
> Just wondering what kind of tarrifs everyone is paying? In Tassie they are:
> 
> ...



You should not need all tarrifs connected at once?

Up here we only have one elec provider

Network Area: ERG-ERG-RES-QLD - last updated 1/07/2011
I only have tariff 11 connected.

Electricity 11 (peak) Tariffs Rates in cents
with GST 
Supply charge 28.8 c/day 
Usage 22.759 c/kWh 

About $102 a year for the supply charge, and then the usage.

QldKev


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## Pennywise (29/2/12)

Enery Australia are the ones that run enerygywatch aren't they?


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## Yob (29/2/12)

had an epic energy fail yesterday... after using my CC STC1000 for the HLT on sunday I decided it was quicker to use one from a currently unused fridge, set it to 1 and off I went to work..

Forgot to plug in the CC fridge and got home to discover it had been running the 'unused' fridge with the door open all day <_< about 3/4 of an inch of ice on the back of the fridge... Brew in the CC fridge sitting comfortably on 20.1

Facepalm!!

Note: Reset STC following the brew without fail.

Gunna add a goodly whack to my next bill methinks... Sigh


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## QldKev (29/2/12)

iamozziyob said:


> had an epic energy fail yesterday... after using my CC STC1000 for the HLT on sunday I decided it was quicker to use one from a currently unused fridge, set it to 1 and off I went to work..
> 
> Forgot to plug in the CC fridge and got home to discover it had been running the 'unused' fridge with the door open all day <_< about 3/4 of an inch of ice on the back of the fridge... Brew in the CC fridge sitting comfortably on 20.1
> 
> ...



You wont notice the fridge extra usage on the power bill from one day.

Say the fridge runs on 200w x 10hrs for the day = 2000w 
2000w @ 25c kwh (max) = 50c 
No need to sweat it out B)


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## HBHB (29/2/12)

A few years back, we built our dream home. Excessively oversized to cater for the non-stop procession of family & friends visitors and a theatre with a 100" screen just for me to retreat to to enjoy a cold beer and a movie or 4. What we didn't think about was the insane costs of powering the place, though we went energy saver lights in 90% of the house and we did go gas hot water and cooking.

We were forking out $670-$900 per quarter on electricity even when we were power Nazi's and usage was way above the average according to the power bill.

However, 6 months ago we stuck a 6Kw solar system on the roof. Interestingly, the week that was installed, we also added 3 more fridges to our collection. 1 for lagering, another Kegerator and another large one because the latest and greatest in fridges for the kitchen simply doesn't cut it when there's 10 or 12 extra people in the place.

Here's the catch - Our power usage has dropped substantially on the bill. In fact it's went down by nearly 40% plus the solar rebate takes us into credit.

Looking closely at it, since we've been pretty liberal since the solar installation and with a lot of family/friends staying, i'm thinking that the first few years we were running on a faulty meter which was over reading. Impossible to prove.

If there's some cost effective way of having a meter checked to ensure it's values are correct, then i'd certainly be doing it.

Martin


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## Airgead (29/2/12)

HBHB said:


> A few years back, we built our dream home. Excessively oversized to cater for the non-stop procession of family & friends visitors and a theatre with a 100" screen just for me to retreat to to enjoy a cold beer and a movie or 4. What we didn't think about was the insane costs of powering the place, though we went energy saver lights in 90% of the house and we did go gas hot water and cooking.
> 
> We were forking out $670-$900 per quarter on electricity even when we were power Nazi's and usage was way above the average according to the power bill.
> 
> ...



What's probably happened is the switch to time of day metering has reduced your bill. Take a look at the KWh used. That will probably be the same or higher but the bill will have come down.

On a standard tariff, all power costs you around (depending on state etc) 24c/KWh. 24x7. So power at midnight costs the same as power at mid day. Off peak is on a separate meter so only stuff wired into that meter (by law - hot water systems only) gets the offpeak rate.

On time of day, the tariff varies from about 40c/KWh at peak times to 12c/KWh on the shoulders (usually 7pm-10pm and 5am-8am) and right down to 6c/kwh off peak.

Your usage may well be highest in shoulder and off peak times so your power is cheaper than before.

Cheers
Dave


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## QldKev (29/2/12)

HBHB said:


> <<snip>>
> 
> If there's some cost effective way of having a meter checked to ensure it's values are correct, then i'd certainly be doing it.
> 
> Martin




With Ergon you can get a meter test. If the meter is at fault there is no charge. I can't remember how much it is if the meter is tested good, but it was not that much.


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## Liam_snorkel (29/2/12)

Snow said:


> Actually, in local situations, it is more than economically viable - it is profitable at the moment. Due to Govt subsidised feed-in tarifs and the rising price of electricity (tipped to double in the next 3 years), it is affordable to go down the solar PV route.
> 
> Granted, on a global scale, it is currently unsustainable due to the resources required to provide every household with panels and inverters, but hey - it works at my house! I have 4.2KW on the roof and just got a cheque for $200 from Origin for the last quarter. Even factoring in rainy days, short winter days, etc, at current feed-in rates, the system will pay for itself in 6 years or so. And that's running 5 fridges and a tank pump. After that, I'll be making a profit.
> 
> ...


if you don't mind me asking, how much was your PV system all up?


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## Nick JD (29/2/12)

The latest thermoelectric stuff being developed will beat photovoltaic in both cost and efficiency. Next couple of years it looks like we really will have something to equal burning coal.

Photovoltaics days are numbered due to cost and low efficiency.


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## Batz (29/2/12)

Nick JD said:


> The latest thermoelectric stuff being developed will beat photovoltaic in both cost and efficiency. Next couple of years it looks like we really will have something to equal burning coal.
> 
> Photovoltaics days are numbered due to cost and low efficiency.




It has to be cheap to beat burning coal but I hope it does. Just give me a few more years of work first hey?

batz


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## Batz (29/2/12)

Someone posted a Chinese plug into a power socket inverter back in the thread, has anyone have more info on these?

batz


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## booargy (29/2/12)

grid tie inverter
The panels, batteries, wind turbines get wired in to them then plugged into a power point. If the grid goes dead they disconnect. I have only read about them in Renew magazine. But I will be setting up a system in the next couple of months to run my fridges. 

Don't worry about coal. Steel can't be made without it is where the carbon comes from. Stupid thing is eventually we won't have the raw materials to make it. As we dig up our country and ship it overseas. China sits on their reserves.


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## Snow (29/2/12)

HBHB said:


> A few years back, we built our dream home. Excessively oversized to cater for the non-stop procession of family & friends visitors and a theatre with a 100" screen just for me to retreat to to enjoy a cold beer and a movie or 4. What we didn't think about was the insane costs of powering the place, though we went energy saver lights in 90% of the house and we did go gas hot water and cooking.
> 
> We were forking out $670-$900 per quarter on electricity even when we were power Nazi's and usage was way above the average according to the power bill.
> 
> ...


My understanding is that the power you use during the day is fed directly by your PV system and any excess is bled off into the grid. The power you use from the PV system is not metered on the retailer's meter, so won't show up on your quarterly bill. At night (and low sunlight days) you are using grid power, which will show up. This is why your bill figures make it look like you are using less power per quarter.

Anyway, I think that's what's happening. Depending on your inverter, you might be able to get your generation figures from your inverter report, average it out for the quarter, then subtract the feed-in amount from your bill, add the bill's grid usage numbers, and this will give you your total power usage for the quarter.

Cheers - Snow.


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## QldKev (29/2/12)

booargy said:


> grid tie inverter
> The panels, batteries, wind turbines get wired in to them then plugged into a power point. If the grid goes dead they disconnect. I have only read about them in Renew magazine. But I will be setting up a system in the next couple of months to run my fridges.
> 
> Don't worry about coal. Steel can't be made without it is where the carbon comes from. Stupid thing is eventually we won't have the raw materials to make it. As we dig up our country and ship it overseas. China sits on their reserves.




What has that got to do with saving power? 

If you have an inverter you generate power yes, 

but all that thing is adding is a surge protector, it aint going to save/generate any more energy
And since it is only 87% efficient you will be wasting 13% of the power you generate


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## Batz (29/2/12)

booargy said:


> Don't worry about coal. Steel can't be made without it is where the carbon comes from. Stupid thing is eventually we won't have the raw materials to make it. As we dig up our country and ship it overseas. China sits on their reserves.




I don't mine coal, I fix caol power power stations.

batz


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## Batz (29/2/12)

QldKev said:


> What has that got to do with saving power?
> 
> If you have an inverter you generate power yes,
> 
> ...




Cheers Kev

batz


----------



## geoffd (29/2/12)

Rowy said:


> Sorry Father but these days more people believe climate change is crap than believe otherwise. (Refer Newspoll, Galaxy and Nielsen) To stop exporting coal is to have an entire economy collapse with thousands and thousands of people unemployed overnight. There is no clean energy jobs to pick even a small fraction of them up, particularly those without many skills. The so called clean energy jobs particulalry those in manufacturing with be offshore. This is because we won't have cheap power anymore which was the only advantage our manufacturers had. With all due respect over my dead body!



Hi Rowy, I'm happy to believe that mother nature can take care of Co2 regulation, question is how many species, including our own will survive the climate volatility. the vast majority of dinosaurs didnt survive whatever mother nature threw at them. global warming will only begin when the polar caps (the ice cubes in the drink) have pretty much melted, we may or may not see that in our lifetimes.

Co2 is a distraction from all the far worse pollutants that are not being properly regulated or taxed, I more want to see coal & oil use reduced for it's chemical impact than for it's Co2 production, organic farming & restoring the health of soil is carbon capture in itself as a byproduct. bring back the glass milk bottle etc. 

I understand your poll arguement, humans are rather self destructive, they're happy to have a job in the coal mines in Gippsland even though there are markedly higher respitory & cancer illnesses in the area, 99% can be wrong. most probably why nobody ever agrees with me 

Personally I'd like demand reduction over supply restriction; to see population reduction via the end of subsidised population growth, no govt assistance after the first child until we get back to a reasonable population of about a billion worldwide. As soon as I become world leader I will bring this in with a back up plan of forced sterilisation after first child if it isnt proving effective enough


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## Batz (29/2/12)

Father Jack said:


> Hi Rowy, I'm happy to believe that mother nature can take care of Co2 regulation, question is how many species, including our own will survive the climate volatility. the vast majority of dinosaurs didnt survive whatever mother nature threw at them. global warming will only begin when the polar caps (the ice cubes in the drink) have pretty much melted, we may or may not see that in our lifetimes.
> 
> Co2 is a distraction from all the far worse pollutants that are not being properly regulated or taxed, I more want to see coal & oil use reduced for it's chemical impact than for it's Co2 production, organic farming & restoring the health of soil is carbon capture in itself as a byproduct. bring back the glass milk bottle etc.
> 
> ...




I agree with ya !

batz


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## geoffd (29/2/12)

Batz said:


> I agree with ya !
> 
> batz




unless we can find 99 to disagree that makes me wrong, you've jinxed me Batz


----------



## Batz (29/2/12)

Father Jack said:


> Hi Rowy, I'm happy to believe that mother nature can take care of Co2 regulation, question is how many species, including our own will survive the climate volatility. the vast majority of dinosaurs didnt survive whatever mother nature threw at them. global warming will only begin when the polar caps (the ice cubes in the drink) have pretty much melted, we may or may not see that in our lifetimes.
> 
> Co2 is a distraction from all the far worse pollutants that are not being properly regulated or taxed, I more want to see coal & oil use reduced for it's chemical impact than for it's Co2 production, organic farming & restoring the health of soil is carbon capture in itself as a byproduct. bring back the glass milk bottle etc.
> 
> ...




I agree with ya !
We also all own cars, fridges, plasmas, air-conds and buy washing powers, bleach, fly sprays. Not having a go at you, believe me I'm with you 100%, we are permuculture self sufficiency hippies, but you need to pay the government in money to live in this country, self suffciency requires you to earn money.

batz


----------



## matho (29/2/12)

Father Jack said:


> Hi Rowy, I'm happy to believe that mother nature can take care of Co2 regulation, question is how many species, including our own will survive the climate volatility. the vast majority of dinosaurs didnt survive whatever mother nature threw at them. global warming will only begin when the polar caps (the ice cubes in the drink) have pretty much melted, we may or may not see that in our lifetimes.
> 
> Co2 is a distraction from all the far worse pollutants that are not being properly regulated or taxed, I more want to see coal & oil use reduced for it's chemical impact than for it's Co2 production, organic farming & restoring the health of soil is carbon capture in itself as a byproduct. bring back the glass milk bottle etc.
> 
> ...



I agree with you too father jack, I would like to see demand reduction too, we are seeing it in electricity use, as the price rises so has the base load dropped, unfortunately peak load is increasing, it used to be the winter peak that caused troubles but now it has been out stripped by the summer peak, the figure I have seen is for every $1500 worth of air conditioning installed costs $7500 worth of network improvement. Now I shouldn't be complaining as I work for an evil electricity distributor and the recent network improvement has kept me very busy.


----------



## booargy (29/2/12)

QldKev said:


> What has that got to do with saving power?
> 
> If you have an inverter you generate power yes,
> 
> ...



Solar panels produce DC current the grid is AC current. Inverters are used to convert DC current into AC current they don't generate power. All grid tie solar systems have an inverter. That means I can have solar power in my rented house without changing anything.
If you want a higher efficency pay more for your inverter. So for 10% more efficency You pay double triple I don't know. But these are cheap, easy to wire yourself and you can take it with you when you move.
These are a lot more efficient than a coal fired power station which are around 30% efficient before taking the grid into account. I don't give a shit about efficency Because solar panels will produce power for 30 years + with no maintenance apart from cleaning.


----------



## Nick JD (29/2/12)

I think they should cover the coal power station cooling towers in solar panels just to shit the hippies.


----------



## alfadog (29/2/12)

The reason you get 40c-50c/kWh for supplying solar on to the grid is that it reduces the peak demand for electricity from your supplier. As peak demand increases, electricity suppliers can pay upwards of $1kWh for the power and the mere 40c is pocket change for them. It also means that they do not have to upgrade transformers and the network (cables and circuit breakers) which is more than calling the local sparky around to rewire a light fitting. So in short I think solar does have its place in the Australia. If you are considering getting it, the sooner the better cause the price for supplying power to the grid will only decrease.


----------



## Rowy (29/2/12)

Gents,
My last comment on the forum. I will argue with you individually through PM's because this forum should not be about politics and if we are talking CO2 we are talking politics. In the early 20th century there was a thing called phreneology. Look it up its about the shape of your head. In the mid 20th Century it was a nuclear holocaust. In the 70's it was an ice age (Which actually might be true). In the 90's it was the Y2K bug. Guess what none of this came true. Now even climate scientists can't explain things going like they are (Climategate 1 & 2). The IPCC reports have been discredited even on their own admissions. Big Oil cannot pour the money into the science that governments can and have. E.G. the Federals govts new green energy bank 13Billion! So I am faced with this I have three sons in their teens and early 20's. I sacrifice my guts out to get them to where they are. The people who I have despised all my life, the greenies and left, because having spent most iof my life in the country I have seen the destruction they create, job losses suicides, proud men reduced to nothing while the bludging arseholes get the dole and paid to protest. Anyway this is a rant I, like everone else hates polution. But don't bullshit me and say it's about one thing when It's about another. The pricks that are pushing this crap almost destoyed the Northern Australian cattle industry this year. Why because some left wing fuckwit university lecturer convinced them it was good. All those pricks have never seen an angry man or got their hands dirty in their lives. For fucks sake the Construction Forestry and Mining Employees Union is (CFMEU) is donating to the greens and there is not one of their employees that the greens don't want to put out of a job. Go Figure!


----------



## Whiteferret (29/2/12)

alfadog said:


> The reason you get 40c-50c/kWh for supplying solar on to the grid is that it reduces the peak demand for electricity from your supplier. As peak demand increases, electricity suppliers can pay upwards of $1kWh for the power and the mere 40c is pocket change for them. It also means that they do not have to upgrade transformers and the network (cables and circuit breakers) which is more than calling the local sparky around to rewire a light fitting. So in short I think solar does have its place in the Australia. If you are considering getting it, the sooner the better cause the price for supplying power to the grid will only decrease.




sorry alfadog Im pretty sure the suppliers aren't goin to get 40c-50c for every dollar they spend. The rate of feed in tariff was dictated to them to entice people to "go solar, go green, do the right thing, make/save some money for yourself" so that it looks good to the voters.

Solar generation into the grid does NOT! reduce peak/base load. Peak/base load generation doesn't and can't follow whatever sun/wind/renewable input into it. It has to reflect the PEAK load taken from it ie industry and domestic load. You can't (physically) just stop/start ramp up/down a steam turbine generator in real time its just not possible. As our peak load stays the same/grows and our intermitent usage lowers our price per grid kW usage will go up. Sure you might be using less imported power but that reliabilaty of having X amount of kW at anyone time (ie at night when there is no solar or when the wind don't blow) will mean that you will have to pay more per kW and service fees(because the power generation costs the same whether anyone uses it or not). Until we can reliably/efficiantly store our PV, wind power or any other renewable source energy, there's no point talking about how marvelous our wonderful solar is.


----------



## Nick JD (1/3/12)

Rowy said:


> Gents,
> My last comment on the forum. I will argue with you individually through PM's because this forum should not be about politics and if we are talking CO2 we are talking politics. In the early 20th century there was a thing called phreneology. Look it up its about the shape of your head. In the mid 20th Century it was a nuclear holocaust. In the 70's it was an ice age (Which actually might be true). In the 90's it was the Y2K bug. Guess what none of this came true. Now even climate scientists can't explain things going like they are (Climategate 1 & 2). The IPCC reports have been discredited even on their own admissions. Big Oil cannot pour the money into the science that governments can and have. E.G. the Federals govts new green energy bank 13Billion! So I am faced with this I have three sons in their teens and early 20's. I sacrifice my guts out to get them to where they are. The people who I have despised all my life, the greenies and left, because having spent most iof my life in the country I have seen the destruction they create, job losses suicides, proud men reduced to nothing while the bludging arseholes get the dole and paid to protest. Anyway this is a rant I, like everone else hates polution. But don't bullshit me and say it's about one thing when It's about another. The pricks that are pushing this crap almost destoyed the Northern Australian cattle industry this year. Why because some left wing fuckwit university lecturer convinced them it was good. All those pricks have never seen an angry man or got their hands dirty in their lives. For fucks sake the Construction Forestry and Mining Employees Union is (CFMEU) is donating to the greens and there is not one of their employees that the greens don't want to put out of a job. Go Figure!



Global Warming is about global resource distribution, not about the temperature of the Earth. 

Get some help - this stuff doesn't matter as much as you think it does. Enjoy your life, the sky isn't falling.


----------



## QldKev (1/3/12)

booargy said:


> Solar panels produce DC current the grid is AC current. Inverters are used to convert DC current into AC current they don't generate power. All grid tie solar systems have an inverter. That means I can have solar power in my rented house without changing anything.
> If you want a higher efficency pay more for your inverter. So for 10% more efficency You pay double triple I don't know. But these are cheap, easy to wire yourself and you can take it with you when you move.
> These are a lot more efficient than a coal fired power station which are around 30% efficient before taking the grid into account. I don't give a shit about efficency Because solar panels will produce power for 30 years + with no maintenance apart from cleaning.




Re-reading my post I don't think I was that clear.

They key is, as you mentioned in this post, the pic you posted is just the inverter part. Hence as you mentioned it hooks up to the back of wind/solar/water power generation. I was trying to say that the part by itself will not save power. 

QldKev


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## Airgead (1/3/12)

whiteferret said:


> sorry alfadog Im pretty sure the suppliers aren't goin to get 40c-50c for every dollar they spend. The rate of feed in tariff was dictated to them to entice people to "go solar, go green, do the right thing, make/save some money for yourself" so that it looks good to the voters.
> 
> Solar generation into the grid does NOT! reduce peak/base load. Peak/base load generation doesn't and can't follow whatever sun/wind/renewable input into it. It has to reflect the PEAK load taken from it ie industry and domestic load. You can't (physically) just stop/start ramp up/down a steam turbine generator in real time its just not possible. As our peak load stays the same/grows and our intermitent usage lowers our price per grid kW usage will go up. Sure you might be using less imported power but that reliabilaty of having X amount of kW at anyone time (ie at night when there is no solar or when the wind don't blow) will mean that you will have to pay more per kW and service fees(because the power generation costs the same whether anyone uses it or not). Until we can reliably/efficiantly store our PV, wind power or any other renewable source energy, there's no point talking about how marvelous our wonderful solar is.



Actually it does. A lot. Peak demand is from midday to around 5pm. That matches exactly with peak output from solar. If you look at countries with high PV inputs (Germany is one and they have stuff all sunshine) their peak wholesale prices fell significantly as a result of solar.

The feed in tariff was indeed an inducement to go solar. One of the side benefits of increased solar input is a reduction in wholesale energy prices at peak times (not retail mind you) as there is less need to fire up expensive peaking gas plants.

Power generation isn't a fixwd cost whether its used or not. Well not entirely. in a baseload plant, yes it runs 24x7 at a fixed cost/kwh. A peaking plant though had very high fuel costs so they sit idle for most of the time and only generate when the wholesale price on the market goes up enough to make it worthwhile to switch them on. Since the price can peak to 40k/kwh at extreme peaks a peaking plant can bake 50% of its operating profit for a year on just 2 or 3 days. 

The huge advantage of solar and wind is that their ongoing generating costs are zero. They can bid very low into the market and cut the peaking plants right out. The nett effect is to lower the wholesale peak prices.

Doesn't help us at the retail level much but its very good for the network.

And we can already store renewable energy. There are utility scale baseload solar thermal plants running in Spain with 14 hours of storage. They work on molten salt or compressed gas. Wind and solar pv can be stored via compressed gas at utility scale. The future is here already...

Cheers
Dave


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## stux (1/3/12)

Rowy said:


> In the 90's it was the Y2K bug. Guess what none of this came true.



As one of the guys who helped *fix* the Y2K bug and thus stop the world from collapsing I take offence to this assertion when ever I see it. 

In my operation we tested our system twice for rollover and it failed catastrophically twice. Third test was the real deal and it passed. The system was a national telecommunications network. Without the fixes the entire phone system (and the Internet) would've died and stayed dead in this country, that would've taken down the banks too. 

Y2k being a non-event is testament to the amazing job that was done.


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## black_labb (1/3/12)

Rowy said:


> Gents,
> My last comment on the forum. I will argue with you individually through PM's because this forum should not be about politics and if we are talking CO2 we are talking politics. In the early 20th century there was a thing called phreneology. Look it up its about the shape of your head. In the mid 20th Century it was a nuclear holocaust. In the 70's it was an ice age (Which actually might be true). In the 90's it was the Y2K bug. Guess what none of this came true. Now even climate scientists can't explain things going like they are (Climategate 1 & 2). The IPCC reports have been discredited even on their own admissions. Big Oil cannot pour the money into the science that governments can and have. E.G. the Federals govts new green energy bank 13Billion! So I am faced with this I have three sons in their teens and early 20's. I sacrifice my guts out to get them to where they are. The people who I have despised all my life, the greenies and left, because having spent most iof my life in the country I have seen the destruction they create, job losses suicides, proud men reduced to nothing while the bludging arseholes get the dole and paid to protest. Anyway this is a rant I, like everone else hates polution. But don't bullshit me and say it's about one thing when It's about another. The pricks that are pushing this crap almost destoyed the Northern Australian cattle industry this year. Why because some left wing fuckwit university lecturer convinced them it was good. All those pricks have never seen an angry man or got their hands dirty in their lives. For fucks sake the Construction Forestry and Mining Employees Union is (CFMEU) is donating to the greens and there is not one of their employees that the greens don't want to put out of a job. Go Figure!




You've held a job and worked hard at it making you an expert. Does it frighten you that if they are right these greenies could be doing as much for your 3 sons' future as you have yourself? I agree that many greens can be fucked in their methods. They seem about as interested in making themselves into an elitist club above all others as they are about actually being helpful to the environment. Their inability to communicate effectively with 90% of the population rivals someone reading passages out of the bible outside of a horehouse. That doesn't mean that coal fired power plants are the way of the future. I'd love to see more solar and get some cars out of those crawling carparks while they spew fumes without going much faster than a quick walk. 

You should probably detach your political views from things like solar power, it isn't helping you and you've come across like a bit of an idiot with that rant.


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## Liam_snorkel (1/3/12)

yeah, pretty sure Rowy is suffering from paranoid delusions. I'm surprised he didn't bring up "chem trails".


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## Airgead (1/3/12)

Peace, love and mung beans dudes.

Now. About those power bills that we weer talking about...


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## Liam_snorkel (1/3/12)

yeah. by memory my last bill was about $400 for the quarter.

2 people 
2 fridges + fermenting fridge
washing machine + dryer a couple of times a week
laptops, TV etc
aircon for a couple of hours a day during summer
about 16 down lights 
stove is gas


Looking to buy the place I'm currently in at the end of the year, first thing on the list of improvements will be solar panels on the roof.


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## Airgead (1/3/12)

Liam_snorkel said:


> yeah. by memory my last bill was about $400 for the quarter.
> 
> 2 people
> 2 fridges + fermenting fridge
> ...



If you're on electric hot water then using the roof space fro solar water will reduce your power consumption far more cheaply than solar PV. If you already have efficient hot water then consider PV.

Solar hot water is the best thing you can do with your roof space for reducing power demand.

Cheers
Dave

Edit - oh yeah... and the absolute cheapest is installing an outdoor clothes line and some sort of outdoor drying that can be used in wet weather. Dryers use an absolute metric crapload of power.


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## Brewer_010 (1/3/12)

Rowy said:


> Gents,
> My last comment on the forum. I will argue with you individually through PM's because this forum should not be about politics and if we are talking CO2 we are talking politics. In the early 20th century there was a thing called phreneology. Look it up its about the shape of your head. In the mid 20th Century it was a nuclear holocaust. In the 70's it was an ice age (Which actually might be true). In the 90's it was the Y2K bug. Guess what none of this came true. Now even climate scientists can't explain things going like they are (Climategate 1 & 2). The IPCC reports have been discredited even on their own admissions. Big Oil cannot pour the money into the science that governments can and have. E.G. the Federals govts new green energy bank 13Billion! So I am faced with this I have three sons in their teens and early 20's. I sacrifice my guts out to get them to where they are. The people who I have despised all my life, the greenies and left, because having spent most iof my life in the country I have seen the destruction they create, job losses suicides, proud men reduced to nothing while the bludging arseholes get the dole and paid to protest. Anyway this is a rant I, like everone else hates polution. But don't bullshit me and say it's about one thing when It's about another. The pricks that are pushing this crap almost destoyed the Northern Australian cattle industry this year. Why because some left wing fuckwit university lecturer convinced them it was good. All those pricks have never seen an angry man or got their hands dirty in their lives. For fucks sake the _*Construction Forestry and Mining Employees Union*_ is (CFMEU) is donating to the greens and there is not one of their employees that the greens don't want to put out of a job. Go Figure!




While you were so busy ranting you forgot that CFMEU is actually construction forestry mining and ENERGY union

If you knew anything about science and how scientists approach their work as a group, you would know you're talking out your arse about climate science. These same scientists help farmers grow more crops more efficiently and help your cows and sheep stay healthy. Also, they help YOU when you get sick or injured. Its very easy to be a blanket cynic, why not go and learn a bit more about climate science before making offhand statements that they dont know what they're on about (just because YOU dont know what they're on about).

I know loads of uni lecturers who get their hands dirty btw. Soil scientists, geologists, vets, the list goes on. Some even "work" while they put themselves through uni or getting their PhD.


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## Liam_snorkel (1/3/12)

Airgead said:


> If you're on electric hot water then using the roof space fro solar water will reduce your power consumption far more cheaply than solar PV. If you already have efficient hot water then consider PV.
> 
> Solar hot water is the best thing you can do with your roof space for reducing power demand.
> 
> ...



will look into solar hot water.

I'd like to be putting the money we would be spending on electricity into paying off a PV system. I'm just thinking in 5 years time, electricity prices may have doubled. I don't want to be spending over 3 grand a year on electricity if I can avoid it.

We use the clothes line occasionally (maybe 1-2 times a fortnight), but we're both very busy (and I'm lazy) so it's a matter of convenience.


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## Airgead (1/3/12)

Liam_snorkel said:


> will look into solar hot water.
> 
> I'd like to be putting the money we would be spending on electricity into paying off a PV system. I'm just thinking in 5 years time, electricity prices may have doubled. I don't want to be spending over 3 grand a year on electricity if I can avoid it.
> 
> We use the clothes line occasionally (maybe 1-2 times a fortnight), but we're both very busy (and I'm lazy) so it's a matter of convenience.



Each time you use the dryer, drop 50c into a jar... That''s about what it costs each time you dry a load of washing. If you are on time of day metering and its a peak time, drop in a dollar...

Cheers
Dave


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## stux (1/3/12)

Airgead said:


> Each time you use the dryer, drop 50c into a jar... That''s about what it costs each time you dry a load of washing. If you are on time of day metering and its a peak time, drop in a dollar...
> 
> Cheers
> Dave



And with children, living in the mountains, when if its not raining its usually foggy, with cloth nappies... that drier is costing us a BOMB!!! I think its our major electrical expense

Already got Solar+Gas Instantaneous Hotwater, Gas Cooking, Gas Heating, and Solar PV. And Solar pool heating


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## seamad (1/3/12)

Live on a pretty wet mountain too.
Power under $300 a quarter.
Gas cooktop elec oven and gas hot water.
Dad and i built the place, put insulation in roof and western walls. Have aircon in main bedroom only and wood fire.
Building 12.5 m sail cat in backyard 5 days per week. Couple of fans air compressor tools etc.

Dont have a clothes drier, never have. With a 5&3 yo load of washing daily. If its raining have second portable line either on back verandah or lately with so much rain use a portable dehumidifyer in spare bedroom, works a treat. Have to use the dehumid a lot lately as everything going mouldy.


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## mrTbeer (11/9/13)

Just cracked the half ton. First $502 bill. One fridge, washing, drier, dishwasher get daily use. 2 computers always on. Elec hot water, oven, stove and AC.
AC doesn't get used much but drier gets a lot as does oven.
Usage down compared to last winter but price goes UP!


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## ben_sa (12/9/13)

Lowest bill ever just came in... $300. Electric cooktop/oven... Only thing in the house on gas is hot water and heater (wall furnace). 2 of us, 2 plasmas, 1 lcd in bedroom. 1 food fridge, 2 beer fridges (1 ferment temps) and 1 full size upright freezer

Building a house at the moment and trying to guage whether we go solar... decisions decisions...


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## wide eyed and legless (12/9/13)

Just over 4 years ago I had a 4kW Solar system put in and a solar hot water heater, it was a big decision because doing the sums at the time I was never going to get my money back,trouble is I can't resist a bargain, electricity company charges me 16 cents / KW hour and gives me 60 cents / KW hour.
I haven't paid a bill in 4 years and that is including gas, my credits through the summer help pay for the winter bills with the reduced output from the solar cells during winter.
What I have always wondered is why the geo thermal energy hasn't been tapped into, there were over 400 volcanoes in Victoria, there must be lots of heat going on beneath our feet I believe that after 2 or 3 thousand years without any activity they are classed as extinct and I think the only one classed as dormant is Mount Gambier.
What's the hold up in having a crack at the geo thermal, is it water to make the super heated steam ?
If anyone knows I would like to know more about it, a few years they sunk a test hole in Moomba and just before they got to try it some wally dropped a spanner down the hole and stuffed it up.
I think the reason they tried to achieve something in Moomba was the underground water supply as well as the thermal rocks under the ground, but surely this would be the way to go.


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## mrTbeer (12/9/13)

Lots of small geothermal in London, they use it to boost heating efficiency not for power, works there at relatively shallow depths. When used for heating they don't need to boil they just need it constant. The ground temp is the average of year round air temp. About 12c there and about 23c here. It's used in conjunction with heatpumps can be applied to cooling as well but isn't?
Most Aus geothermal is deep and in search of hot temps to boil steam hence run turbines and produce base load, problem is they are very remote locations, still testing and far removed from grid. Look up GDY asx for some detail.


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## wide eyed and legless (12/9/13)

mrTbeer said:


> Lots of small geothermal in London, they use it to boost heating efficiency not for power, works there at relatively shallow depths. When used for heating they don't need to boil they just need it constant. The ground temp is the average of year round air temp. About 12c there and about 23c here. It's used in conjunction with heatpumps can be applied to cooling as well but isn't?
> Most Aus geothermal is deep and in search of hot temps to boil steam hence run turbines and produce base load, problem is they are very remote locations, still testing and far removed from grid. Look up GDY asx for some detail.


Thanks for that, just read an article in the Business Spectator about the Innaminka Deeps (5km) it states that 1% of the shallower hot rock, between 3 and 5 km could supply Australia's energy for 26,000 years, down side is it would cost slightly more to produce electricity but obviously more environmentally friendly.


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## QldKev (12/9/13)

I got one of them power measuring devices and looked at my usage as we have >$750 bills, with no aircon or heating (to be fair we have ceiling fans that run 2/3 of the year) in a brand new so called energy efficient house. The thread is here where I posted my measurements. Some things I was shocked by, as in my sons gaming computer at over $100 per quarter; which is roughly the same as our 4 fridges combined.

At a summary I found (per year cost, and the power rates have gone up since this was measured)
4 fridges $400 (1 is a fermenting fridge so spends 1/2 time at 18c, and 1/2 at 4c)
Sons pc $400 (top gaming spec)
My pc $200 (gaming spec)
Bio Cycle $170
HWS (solar and in QLD) $232

So you can see there alone is $350 a quarter, and that was at the old tariff rates, so it's probably closer to $400.
Then we run a pump for water to the toilets and washing machine.
Cook on electric, plus microwave gets a good workout
We have modern fluro globes, but every room has multiple lights.
Ceiling fans have already started being used for summer.
TV's, stereos, dvd players, etc.
Brewing on elec (only a couple of bucks really)
Probably a few others not listed

It adds up pretty quickly


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## mrTbeer (12/9/13)

Wow I wouldn't have guessed a PC uses that much.
My PC's are always on, laptop hibernates, the desktop is pretty 'lightweight' but there's a 10gang powerboard which I'll checkout.


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## QldKev (12/9/13)

If you're not running big graphics cards often they are not as bad as above, we need 2 x 6 pin plugs for the graphics cards, and my sons power supply is 950w; whilst I run a little 600w one. Also the figures includes the screens we are running, I'm using a 27", and my son has a 22" plus a 32" (yes 32") screen.


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## JaseH (12/9/13)

mrTbeer said:


> Wow I wouldn't have guessed a PC uses that much.
> My PC's are always on, laptop hibernates, the desktop is pretty 'lightweight' but there's a 10gang powerboard which I'll checkout.


I have a couple of servers in a rack in my study, they are on 24/7. I keep the door to the study closed most of the time to keep the fan noise from the rest of the house. You would be surprised how warm that room gets with just those 2 machines running, which means there must be a bit of power being consumed.

My stir plate lives in that room, the yeast starters love the warmth


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## thebeemann (12/9/13)

Just got my latest bill , our house is uninsulated and an old fibro asbestos thing $1364.32 , i love living in the most expensive state for electricity , roof being insulated for summer , last summer aircon was on for 3 days and the room its in was 42c , we are renting and landlord doesnt care , im paying for the insulation in the roof .


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## wbosher (12/9/13)

**** me we get ripped off in NZ for power. My last bill was $380, that's monthly!

Two fridges, and a fermenting fridge
Crappy old PC
Crappy old 40" LCD tv

Just pretty standard stuff really.


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## QldKev (12/9/13)

wbosher said:


> **** me we get ripped off in NZ for power. My last bill was $380, that's monthly!
> 
> Two fridges, and a fermenting fridge
> Crappy old PC
> ...


What $ per kwh are you on? I always thought you was cheaper than here.

But I guess you probably have more heating requirements


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## mrTbeer (12/9/13)

wbosher said:


> **** me we get ripped off in NZ for power. My last bill was $380, that's monthly!


Would the last one to leave NZ, please turn the light off when you go. 

Had to share just paying electricity bills for work and home. I asked Origin if they could do a better rate? They gave me 13% of advertised rates for work and 9% off advertised rates for home.
Business choice code 8167 and Daily Saver Plus are the keywords, nothing to lose other than a promise to stay with them for 12months.


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## mrTbeer (12/9/13)

QldKev said:


> If you're not running big graphics cards often they are not as bad as above, we need 2 x 6 pin plugs for the graphics cards, and my sons power supply is 950w; whilst I run a little 600w one. Also the figures includes the screens we are running, I'm using a 27", and my son has a 22" plus a 32" (yes 32") screen.


I've got 2 x 22" but no graphics card (i3 Brix)


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## booargy (12/9/13)

thebeemann said:


> Just got my latest bill , our house is uninsulated and an old fibro asbestos thing $1364.32 , i love living in the most expensive state for electricity , roof being insulated for summer , last summer aircon was on for 3 days and the room its in was 42c , we are renting and landlord doesnt care , im paying for the insulation in the roof .


grid guerrilla


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## bradsbrew (12/9/13)

thebeemann said:


> Just got my latest bill , our house is uninsulated and an old fibro asbestos thing $1364.32 , i love living in the most expensive state for electricity , roof being insulated for summer , last summer aircon was on for 3 days and the room its in was 42c , we are renting and landlord doesnt care , im paying for the insulation in the roof .





thebeemann said:


> Just got my latest bill , our house is uninsulated and an old fibro asbestos thing $1364.32 , i love living in the most expensive state for electricity , roof being insulated for summer , last summer aircon was on for 3 days and the room its in was 42c , we are renting and landlord doesnt care , im paying for the insulation in the roof .


lucky its asbestos and not ccs, asbestos is a pretty good insulator.


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## wbosher (13/9/13)

QldKev said:


> What $ per kwh are you on? I always thought you was cheaper than here.
> 
> But I guess you probably have more heating requirements


Actually, scratch that. I just check my bill and almost half of that is gas, the power is $202. Still pretty high for a monthly bill though IMO.

26.96 cents/kWh - variable use charge
33.33 cents/day - daily fixed charge
0.17 cents/kWh - Eletricity Authority levy
and GST

Heating is gas not power, so is hot water. So the power is really only fridge, stove, lighting, TV, PC, etc...

Maybe less competition here due to smaller population?


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## edschache (13/9/13)

As someone with cheap electricity bills my advice is to just be pedantic about turning things off, and for most things that means at the wall. Part of my morning routine is turning off the phone charger that my wife charges her phone on over night. It probably saves us all of $2/qtr but that isn't really the point - it's all part of turning off anything that is not in use. The charger for our electric toothbrush is another example - it is warm if it is on with nothing on it, a clear sign that it's slowly just wasting power.

Energy efficient lights are another good move for the areas that you have lit often. When I did the lighting for my deck I had no real choice but to go with LED lights. 6 lights are bright enough to light the 6x4m deck and they draw about 1.2W @ 12v. I actually think that LED technology is getting to the point where if you were building a new house you could go entirely 12V for lighting and just charge a couple of deep cycles off a solar panel without going via 240V. That combined with an Engel or two, a laptop that will charge off a 5V DC USB power source, a BBQ/gas stove for cooking and good house design and insulation to avoid heating/cooling and you'd be laughing your off-grid ass off.

Of course I say all of that while having 6 fridges at home... home brew is like most hobbies and has a price attached to it. I only have them on when in use (3 atm, soon to be back to 2). We also just got a dishwasher for the first time in 6 years which you will not see me giving up in a hurry.... ooohhh sparkly beer glasses 

Do we pay a lot for the luxuries we have - yep. Are we some of the luckiest bastards in the world if that is the sum total of our problems - hell yeah.


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## QldKev (13/9/13)

wbosher said:


> Actually, scratch that. I just check my bill and almost half of that is gas, the power is $202. Still pretty high for a monthly bill though IMO.
> 
> 26.96 cents/kWh - variable use charge
> 33.33 cents/day - daily fixed charge
> ...



Not sure about the gas as we don't have a connection, but your power is a little bit more expensive, elec use charge is 26.73 cents/kWh + GST.

edit: clarified costing


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## wbosher (13/9/13)

QldKev said:


> Not sure about the gas as we don't have a connection, but your power is a little bit more expensive, we are 26.73 + GST.


$26.73 per month???!!!


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## QldKev (13/9/13)

wbosher said:


> $26.73 per month???!!!


26.73 cents/kWh +GST


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## ben_sa (13/9/13)

edschache said:


> As someone with cheap electricity bills my advice is to just be pedantic about turning things off, and for most things that means at the wall.
> 
> Energy efficient lights are another good move for the areas that you have lit often.
> BBQ/gas stove for cooking and good house design and insulation to avoid heating/cooling and you'd be laughing your off-grid ass off.
> ...


I started this about 3-4 months ago... All because when i was up getting ready for work, i heard the plasma in the shed make a noice, like a power up/down... so now everything gets the flick... except fridges and microwave (simply cos i cant reach it)

LEDs were expensive for us to start off with (through the builder) but majority of our new house will utilise them. and an outdoor BBQ gas connection means the bbq will cop a hiding. Got a brand new Weber Q which use bugger all gas too...

Once we move in we are ditching our 420L all fridge (15 y.o) and 320ishL upright freezer (prob 20 y.o) and going for a new french door... If freezer space becomes a masive problem, the hops will need to go to the beer fridge (serving one) and i wont be able to keep such a large amount of stock 

But your right, in the context, we are pretty damm lucky, we dont need protective gear to drive to work, etc etc... like my cousins who work the the government in a foreign country


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## leahy268 (13/9/13)

mrTbeer said:


> Wow I wouldn't have guessed a PC uses that much.
> My PC's are always on, laptop hibernates, the desktop is pretty 'lightweight' but there's a 10gang powerboard which I'll checkout.


Mine certainly doesn't. When going through a cheap phase I started turning mine off every night and then only turning it on when I needed it. Although I don't have a meter to check it's usage there was absolutely no difference in the power bill unfortunately. Same with the tv and every other major appliance that I could turn off. I think it saved me around $10/quarter. Decided that it wasn't worth the effort at that rate.
But then my stuff isn't anything like as powerful as qld kev's..


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