# Ibu Adjusment For No-chill



## The King of Spain (20/3/10)

I've never really nailed this. Does anyone have a rule-of-thumb for adjusting IBU for no-chilling. I'm doing a lager today aiming for about 25 IBU. Horozion for bittering and then sazz with some into the cube as well.

Thanks

KOS


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## Daniel.lear (20/3/10)

KOS,

I used to calculate all cube-hopping as 20 min additions. Cube hopping was the only additions I did past 60min.

Cheers,

Leary


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## Bongchitis (20/3/10)

Yeah same here Leary. 60 min addition and the cube addition treated as a 20 min addition in terms of bitterness. Many differing opinions on this, some make no change for no chill and detect no difference but the majority of what I have read from NCers indicates 20 min or there abouts. 

Works for me anyway but that is how I have done it every AG (3) so I know no different. The few NC beers I have done appear to be on the money in terms of bitterness so I will continue with this approach.

All the best king.


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## Thirsty Boy (21/3/10)

I tend to calculate all hop additions as being in the boil for 15-20min longer than they actually are

so

60min as an 75-80
30min as 45-50
flame out as 15-20

and any hops that I actually put into the cube as a 25-30min addition (if they go in loose) or a 20min addition if they go in in a hop bag

Generally though, these days I very rarely add hops after 60min. I prefer to hop in the cube for flavour and aroma... and If I am looking for a really big late hop/hopback type aroma I will Ultra Late Hop using the Coffee Press method.

TB


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## Yikes (21/3/10)

So no chilling actually saves time on the boil as well? I can do a 40 min boil? Makes more sense. My cube beers have been a little bitter.


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## Thirsty Boy (22/3/10)

Yikes said:


> So no chilling actually saves time on the boil as well? I can do a 40 min boil? Makes more sense. My cube beers have been a little bitter.



No

You don't boil less, you calculate the additions as though they had been boiled for longer.

There is more happening in the boil than hop alpha acids isomerising... you need to boil for the hour to do all the other stuff as well. You will save a tiny bit of money as you will end up using a little less bittering hops.. but that's about it.

TB


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## clifftiger (22/3/10)

A slight deviation from the main thread, but the same general point of discussion. Should adjustments to bittering calcs be made for the time the wort stays in the kettle after flame-out, for e.g. the time left for whirlpooling and the time taken to drain the kettle?

Cliff


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## QldKev (22/3/10)

clifftiger said:


> A slight deviation from the main thread, but the same general point of discussion. Should adjustments to bittering calcs be made for the time the wort stays in the kettle after flame-out, for e.g. the time left for whirlpooling and the time taken to drain the kettle?
> 
> Cliff



It depends on how quickly your wort cools. With No-Chill there is not a hard rule you can apply; you need to take into account your own equipment. Most recipes take into account the time it takes the wort to cool via their chiller.

With an immersion chiller yo start chilling almost immediately, and you whirlpool after the chill.
With plate chillers you whirlpool (takes time) and then run the wort into the chiller.
No-Chill you wait for the whirlpool and then once in the cube it will still be warm. 

I read a study about bittering extractions, they only had 2 base line temperatures, and the higher temp was in a pressure cooker;
Pressure cooker @ 120c for 30min achieved >90% extraction
Open air @ 80c for 90min achieved <30% extraction

So if you go by these tests, while often with a chiller you are trying to get to yeast pitch temps, for hop bitterness it is reduced substantially once you get below 80c. 

It would be worth measuring how long it takes your setup to be the wort below 80c

QldKev


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## clifftiger (22/3/10)

Thanks Kev - just a clarification, I now use a plate chiller and whirlpool, so potentially by the time the last wort is drained from the kettle it is 30min after flame-out with the wort still above 80C. I guess I need to make some adjustments, maybe allow an extra 20mins in the bittering calcs.


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## QldKev (22/3/10)

About 15 mins sounds about correct to me. This is because as soon as you flame-out you will start loosing heat. This will vary depending on your kettle, Ali looses heat a lot quicker than s/s. A s/s keggle is normally a lot thicker than a s/s pot. 

I assume by the time you hit 90c you are only extracting bitterness at half the rate; and I would expect you to be at a max of 90c by the time you start to chill.

This has got me thinking. Next brew I may take temp readings every 5 mins until I get under 80c.

QldKev


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## Nick JD (22/3/10)

I'm cornfused. 

Do lots of the bittering compounds go into solution and then remain un-isomerised ... so leaving the wort hot for longer isomerises them? 

Or should I just remove the hops before I no-chill?


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## cdbrown (22/3/10)

I definitely notice higher amount of bitterness due to no chill and will be trying to adjust all my recipes to suit. Will try the +20min idea to see if that helps. I'm guessing the cube hopping is the usual flame out addition. Do you add it to the cube before sealing it up after transfer from the kettle, or add sometime during the cooling period?

Thirstyboy - why do you have the flame out additions set to 15-20min while the cube hop is 25-30min addition. Wouldn't the cube hops provide slightly less bitterness than a flame out addition?


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## Ross (22/3/10)

When I'm filling a cube rather than direct pitching, I run an immersion heater for a minute to knock the heat down to 85/90c. Flame out hops (if required) are then added & steeped for 20 mins.
The temperature by then has dropped to approx 70/75c. I then run into the cube in the usual manner. The heat here is more than enough to sanitise & knock over any wild yeast, but cool enough to limit the hot break & make handling easier.
I find this method doesn't require any adjustment (to my taste) from the fully chilled version.

cheers Ross


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## MarkBastard (22/3/10)

Ross said:


> When I'm filling a cube rather than direct pitching, I run an immersion heater for a minute to knock the heat down to 85/90c. Flame out hops (if required) are then added & steeped for 20 mins.
> The temperature by then has dropped to approx 70/75c. I then run into the cube in the usual manner. The heat here is more than enough to sanitise & knock over any wild yeast, but cool enough to limit the hot break & make handling easier.
> I find this method doesn't require any adjustment (to my taste) from the fully chilled version.
> 
> cheers Ross



Nice. Shame it requires an immersion chiller (guessing that's what you meant?). Reckon you could get it to 90c any other way?


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## Thirsty Boy (22/3/10)

cdbrown said:


> I definitely notice higher amount of bitterness due to no chill and will be trying to adjust all my recipes to suit. Will try the +20min idea to see if that helps. I'm guessing the cube hopping is the usual flame out addition. Do you add it to the cube before sealing it up after transfer from the kettle, or add sometime during the cooling period?
> 
> Thirstyboy - why do you have the flame out additions set to 15-20min while the cube hop is 25-30min addition. Wouldn't the cube hops provide slightly less bitterness than a flame out addition?



Because - also helping to answer NickJD's query - not all the alpha acids dissolve out of the hops immediately. If you use pellets, most of them do, but not all. Flame out hops aren't bashed around in the boil and so even less of them are extracted. The ones that are - go into the cube with the wort and isomerise to an extent. My adjustment for them is 15-20mins... If I put the actual hops into the cube, well, ALL their alpha acid goes in and has an opportunity to dissolve & isomerise - sure, at a lower temp - but for a _long_ time.

Its experiential mostly - cube hops give me more bitterness than flame out hops.

This is with loose pellet hops... a bag makes a big difference and I have no damn idea what would happen with flower hops.

TB

PS - I add my cube hops to the actual cube, when its nearly full. I want as little time for the volatile aromas to escape as possible, so the sooner after I add them I am screwing the lid onto the cube, the happier I am


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## jiesu (1/4/10)

Surely their is alot more factors at play here then having a guess at adding 20 minutes?. 

Hypothetically lets consider the following scenario. 

If you rack straight into the cube after whirlpooling, maybe thats 5 minutes from flame out until it is in your cube, if your efficient. You are effectively removing the wort from touching lets say approx 90% of the actual hop material. Wouldn't that mean that the time taken for your wort to get under 80C could only be said to contribute - 90% to the actual bitterness? (basically only 10% as efficient at extracting bitterness as oppose to when your wort is in contact with the entire hop material?) and of course this is not considering how less effective the lower temperatures are at extracting bitterness from the hops. 


What am I missing in the above statement? Do hop oils get completely extruded at the point of contact of boiling water?


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## Bongchitis (2/4/10)

daft templar said:


> Surely their is alot more factors at play here then having a guess at adding 20 minutes?.
> 
> 
> What am I missing in the above statement? Do hop oils get completely extruded at the point of contact of boiling water?




Mate, enough people have brewed and experimented and gauged there results to say with a fair degree of certainty that this is an appropriate figure to use... esspecially TB above. Not really a guess.

Why don't you have a go and see?


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## jiesu (2/4/10)

I'm just trying to understand the science of it all, What might be twenty minutes for thirsty boy in the middle of summer with his stainless steel pot transfer through silicon piping via a filtered march pump on a 55 litre boil could be very different for somone in tasmania with aluminium equipment pouring straight into their cube with 20 litres. 

How can I adapt the previous information to different equipment.
I have just recently Fudged a brew (suspected anyway) by taking too much time to transfer/cool the wort and I'm trying to work out some more specific calculation to my own setup to determine how not to **** it up next time. 

Sorry if my last post seemed provoking. It wasn't intended to be disrespectful, merely to coax some more information from people.


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## manticle (2/4/10)

I think there is no exact science yet because people do report different results. If for example you were making a malty ale with single bittering addition there'd be little difference. An AIPA hopburster with additions every 2 minutes might be a different story. The 20 minute addition thing is just a basic rule of thumb. From there you'd need to tweak until you find what is right for your system


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## Thirsty Boy (2/4/10)

daft templar said:


> I'm just trying to understand the science of it all, What might be twenty minutes for thirsty boy in the middle of summer with his stainless steel pot transfer through silicon piping via a filtered march pump on a 55 litre boil could be very different for somone in tasmania with aluminium equipment pouring straight into their cube with 20 litres.
> 
> How can I adapt the previous information to different equipment.
> I have just recently Fudged a brew (suspected anyway) by taking too much time to transfer/cool the wort and I'm trying to work out some more specific calculation to my own setup to determine how not to **** it up next time.
> ...



There is no way... you cant do it comparing different brewing equipment when people actually cool their wort rapidly. They might use an immersion chiller, a CF chiller, a plate chiller, do different sized brews, whirlpool, hopback.... dozens and dozens of variations. And thats before you even take into account the 3 or 4 different formulas you can use to calculate potential bitterness in the first place.

No-Chill is no different - in this thread alone there have been several different ways of handling no-chill. So the "15-20 mins" thing is a _starting point_ - an idea of how it _might_ effect you. I also think that you can assume, that unless otherwise stated... no-chill will be performed in the "standard" way as described in the articles section of AHB. Beyond that, you simply can't coax information out of anyone else about how it might work on your system... you just have to find out for yourself.

If you are after some of the reasoning and pseudo science behind it, there have been a relatively large number of threads written on this topic - search around and you should get a bunch of different opinions and rationales. Which of them is right and which are bull dust??? Well apart from me being always right as a base assumption  you'll just have to decide which makes sense to you and which matches your own observations about how stuff works.

TB

edit: all of which I guess I could have said by just going +1 to manticle... but I am an annoying wordy bastard at heart really.


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## jiesu (2/4/10)

Thx for clarificaTION....... I think. 

I have read a number of assumptions about the actual temperature that bittering of hops is severely reduced. Some say 80C some say 90C I think Chappo even metioned 70C in another thread. Anyone have evidence in favour of any of the above? It shouldn't be too difficult to quickly reduce the temp after boiling to 70C before pouring into the cube to negate the effects of no chill.


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## haysie (2/4/10)

daft templar said:


> Thx for clarificaTION....... I think.
> 
> I have read a number of assumptions about the actual temperature that bittering of hops is severely reduced. Some say 80C some say 90C I think Chappo even metioned 70C in another thread. Anyone have evidence in favour of any of the above? It shouldn't be too difficult to quickly reduce the temp after boiling to 70C before pouring into the cube to negate the effects of no chill.



The closest I have seen to "evidence" would be a thread some time ago, TB had the IBU`S confirmed via his workplace, couldnt be fragged sarching it but its around. You make a very good point,what works on his system wont work on mine or yours. I ventured in to no/chill with what I think are relatively first hop beers i.e Alts, Reds and took things from there. KISS was my approach and still getting my head around it. Still back n forth between n/c and platechilling depending what i am brewing, yeast on hand, time time time etc. Evidence? be struggling!


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## jiesu (4/4/10)

Ok So I have Found some SCIENCE!!!!

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&id=36896

Although the document only refers to temps above 90C. 

So here are a few exerts from it. 

Comparisons
between the model system and actual wort showed a significant
decrease in utilization when actual wort was used (49%
utilization for model system, 24% for wort). Utilization was
shown to decrease with increasing wort gravity, and a large
portion (51%) of the iso-alpha acids formed was found to be
present in the hot break.

Laufer and Brenner (5) also traced losses of bitter acids during
wort boiling and throughout the process to finished beer, finding
38% loss to trub, 35% to spent hops, and 10% to yeast and
covers.

The rate of conversion of alpha acids to iso-alpha acids was
highly dependent on temperature (Figure 4). For typical 100
C boiling conditions, 77% of alpha acids were isomerized
within 120 min. Temperatures of 130 C isomerized 100% of
alpha acids within 30 min of heating. A 90 min boil at 100 C
corresponded to a final iso-alpha acid concentration equal to
60% of the starting alpha acid concentration.

The results obtained indicate that the rate of isomerization
roughly doubled for every 10 C increase in temperature
(average change was 229% per 10 C increase).
*Meaning approximatly half for drop of 10C*

High temperatures quickly
led to degradation products, as evidenced in the dramatic
decrease of iso-alpha acid concentration beyond 18 min of
heating at 130 C. 

While the rate of isomerization slowed at
temperatures below 100 C, substantial amounts of iso-alpha
acids were still produced at 90 C. This is significant if hot
wort is held at temperatures just below boiling after the kettle
boil is completed, while in the whirlpool, or awaiting transfer
to a heat exchanger.


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## QldKev (4/4/10)

daft templar said:


> Ok So I have Found some SCIENCE!!!!
> 
> Although the document only refers to temps above 90C.



Good document on a real world test. 

To answer your question about the 90c minimum test is from my research I understand a rule of 2.2x for each temp change.
So using the 90c @ 207 mins (from your supplied document), 80c would be (207*2.2) = 455 mins, your no-chill cube would not be held at 80 for long enough to matter. I like to use slow-chill to ensure I get under the 80c, what I deem critical point, as fast as I can. I have posted the 80c in a few posts prior. Also the other advantage of the slow-chill is to help with cold-break formation, which I believe does slightly effect the final flavor. 

QldKev


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## Bizier (4/4/10)

I will chime in that I only use NC for certain beers, either low hopped styles such as a mild with only a small bittering charge, or large IPAs that could do with a large 20-ish min flavour addition, and then dry hop for aroma. I figure styles requiring a finely balanced hop presence can be dealt with immediately using conventional chilling.

I am interested to try a beer employing the hybrid techniques of QLDKev and Ross.


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## Beerbuoy (12/4/10)

Having now done 29 NC brews I just add 20 min to my hop additions in beersmith when I make up the recipe. I haven't found a brew that it didn't work on. 

My only gripe with NC is not being able to do hop additions later then 20 min. Just means dry hoping is more important to get a nice aroma in your apa.


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## cdbrown (5/5/10)

Beerbuoy said:


> Having now done 29 NC brews I just add 20 min to my hop additions in beersmith when I make up the recipe. I haven't found a brew that it didn't work on.
> 
> My only gripe with NC is not being able to do hop additions later then 20 min. Just means dry hoping is more important to get a nice aroma in your apa.



Could you not crack open the cube after an hour or so and drop in the hops for the late addition - making sure to be sanitised of course


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## Ross (5/5/10)

daft templar said:


> Thx for clarificaTION....... I think.
> 
> I have read a number of assumptions about the actual temperature that bittering of hops is severely reduced. Some say 80C some say 90C I think Chappo even metioned 70C in another thread. Anyone have evidence in favour of any of the above? It shouldn't be too difficult to quickly reduce the temp after boiling to 70C before pouring into the cube to negate the effects of no chill.




For all my "no chill" beers I actually cool with an immersion chiller to 75c & then transfer to a sanitised cube. The wort is still hot enough to nail any wild yeast floating around & should still have enough time at 60c+ to self pasteurise in the cube (not that I'm too concerned as pre sanitised). Using this process I have not found any detectable added bitterness to the final beer.

Cheers Ross


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## Fourstar (5/5/10)

Ross said:


> For all my "no chill" beers I actually cool with an immersion chiller to 75c & then transfer to a sanitised cube. The wort is still hot enough to nail any wild yeast floating around & should still have enough time at 60c+ to self pasteurise in the cube (not that I'm too concerned as pre sanitised). Using this process I have not found any detectable added bitterness to the final beer.
> 
> Cheers Ross




Thats pretty much my process but more so a natural temperature fall. i take off the boil and cover with lid, take pot inside, whirlpool (and add traditional 0 min hops if applicable), recover with lid and let rest for 10 mins. The temp is usually around 75-80deg and by the time its in the cube about 75~. if i want more hops, i then add a small amount to the cube. This is my 'whirlpool/hopback' addition.


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## aaronpetersen (5/5/10)

If all my hop additions are with hop pellets in a hop sock does all the above still apply?


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## Nick JD (5/5/10)

AaronP said:


> If all my hop additions are with hop pellets in a hop sock does all the above still apply?



The simple solution to all this is to remove your hops before you no-chill.


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## aaronpetersen (5/5/10)

Nick JD said:


> The simple solution to all this is to remove your hops before you no-chill.




Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. If all my hops are in a bag, which I remove after the boil, then I assume that I won't have to worry about the IBU's changing after that. Correct?


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## felten (5/5/10)

Isn't there still alpha acids and such still in solution even after the hops are removed? Maybe its not a big deal though, I hope someone else can shed some light on it.


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## WarmBeer (5/5/10)

AaronP said:


> Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. If all my hops are in a bag, which I remove after the boil, then I assume that I won't have to worry about the IBU's changing after that. Correct?


Sorry, but not that easy. The hop pellets are just a nice convenient carry-basket for complex alpha/beta acids (amongst other things). Pretty much as soon as they go into your wort, the alpha acids will be distributed through the liquid. It is the boiling process that isomerises these acids to produce the bittering compounds. While your wort is still > approx 80 deg C, it will still be changing the nature of these alpha acids.

So, pulling your hop bag out of the boil is just closing the gate after the horse has already bolted.


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## Nick JD (5/5/10)

WarmBeer said:


> So, pulling your hop bag out of the boil is just closing the gate after the horse has already bolted.



So what's the level of un-isomerised alpha acids in a beer? 

We might be just slamming horse's head in the gate. This might be one of those subjects where it's difficult to get a straight answer because an IBU either way really doesn't matter.

I'd be more concerned about all the people plugging into Beersmith the AA% number on their hops from 07...

I just read this in BS&P:

"If stabilized hop pellets (in soft packs) are kept at 4555 C for 1014 days, the
isomerization is complete and isomerized hop pellets are formed."

We can pre-isomerise our hops?


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## Nodrog (5/3/11)

cdbrown said:


> Could you not crack open the cube after an hour or so and drop in the hops for the late addition - making sure to be sanitised of course




Did anyone have any thoughts on this? anyone tired it?

Want to have a crack at dr smurto's golden ale this weekend, and will need to NC. 

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&recipe=502

Calls for hops at 60,10,5, 0, so I plan to do:

60 - adjusting qty to get same ibu with boil time at 75mins in recipe-acator

cube - instead of the 10m
5 min? don't know?
0 = dry hop as dr smurto suggests 



Thanks all


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## felten (5/3/11)

You could try adding all the hops except for the bittering into the cube


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## jiesu (5/3/11)

It is important to note that hops are not sanitised in any way so either you want them in boiling wort (or very close to) or you add them when their is already alcohol in the wort. If you add them in after cubing or 
Before fermentation is near completion you are gambling for an infection.


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## barls (6/3/11)

jake hops are anti bacterial, hence why they are use in beer to increase the life span.
nodrog, id go for everything after 15minutes in the cube and the 0 minute as a hop tea in the fermentor at the same time as dry hopping.


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