# Paul Mercurio's Peach Beer



## Backlane Brewery (30/3/05)

Saw the review of this in the Bulletin, here's a link to Paul Mercurio's new site.

Good thing there is no smilie for envy, lucky bugger gets to brew up at the Holgate Brewery. 
One or two of the retailers he lists are in my neck of the woods, will have to have a look for this. You interstaters will have to email him with suggested stockists he can approach. :chug: 


Is he a member here, by the way?


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## warrenlw63 (30/3/05)

Backlane,

I remember him either posting here or on another forum I occasionally use a couple of years ago. Which one escapes me.

Dropped a line introducing himself and asking for suggestions on where to purchase that long-awaited all-grain equipment he was going to get.

Was sent suggestions by myself and others and never replied again. <_< 

Must have been when Coopers waved the bucks in front of him.  

Warren -


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## Mercs Own (1/4/05)

gidday guys. Joined up and looking to work out the board. Warren can you remember what forum it was? I am thinknng possibly the more beer forum. Excuse me for not replying!

It would be nice if Coopers paid me big bucks!!! I was an ambassador for them for almost 13 years. Had a great time and drank a lot of good beer for free - thems the perks. That all stopped last year as I thought since I was going bring out my own beer it would be a conflict of interest to still take the beer from Coopers!

Sadly I still havent got a mash system!! But I have been using Holgate Brewhouse as my own personal brewery - a lot of fun but bloody expensive making and packaging 135 cases a pop!

Cheers :beer:


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## Snow (1/4/05)

Paul, 

well done on getting the use of the Holgate premises! We should all be so lucky! So how about sending a few cases up Qld way? We like all things tropical up here and I wouldn't mind trying a peach beer!

Cheers - Snow


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## wessmith (1/4/05)

Gidday Paul, we should have got you properly set up in Mittagong! Still its not too late to get the pilot brewery going...

Good to see you on board.

Wes


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## Scotty (1/4/05)

Gday Paul, saw you on Talking Heads last week. I myself have made a peach beer and would love to try yours for a comparison. Its great you have joined our forum, welcome aboard. 

Oh by the way, I dont know if you have read the other posts but im thinking of bringing out an Australian HB mag and if you might be interested in being in it one day?

Scotty


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## Asher (1/4/05)

Gday Paul

Welcome aboard...

Next time your in Perth pop in to a 'Sandpeoples Brew Day' if you like... I'll introduce you to the pleasures of my GT Rice Lager 

Asher for now


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## Duff (1/4/05)

> Gday Paul, saw you on Talking Heads last week.



Likewise, but didn't see any action in the brewhaus! I'd be keen to give it a try if you can get some up to Sydney.

Cheers - Brett.


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## Steve Lacey (1/4/05)

A warm welcome to PM!!!

I have known for years that the two most prominent celebrity home brew afficionados were Paul Mercurio and Kostya Tsyu. At times when trying to promote home brewing in one way or another I had paused for thought as to how to recruit them to the cause.

So Paul, now you have become a contract brewer at 11 HL a pop. Great stuff! That's getting a bit serious isn't it  . I wonder if we'll be seeing a Kostya Brew one day as well?? Sounds like your having a jolly old time with the distribution -- I'm sure that is the most challenging part. I wish you all the best as I wrassle with the notion of attempting a similar thing here in Japan one day.

Looks like you've got a nice bit of branding going on there with the logo, but one thing I'd like to see somewhere on the website, maybe on the "Where to buy" page, is a picture of a bottle in full livery, just so as to put that image in folks' head when they are casually browsing the shelves it will catch their eye. Just a suggestion.

Good luck with it, and don't forget to keep us up to date here as there are many beer-o-philes herein ready to be enthusiastic advocates for you if you win their hearts and minds and, especially, their tastebuds.

Would love to talk to you about the challenges of contract brewing one day, but for the time being I'll leave you alone to make a success of it.

Here's to Paul's Own :beer: 

Steve Lacey
h34r:


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## Hoops (1/4/05)

Snow said:


> So how about sending a few cases up Qld way? We like all things tropical up here and I wouldn't mind trying a peach beer!
> 
> Cheers - Snow
> [post="52130"][/post]​


I second that great idea Snow!  

Welcome aboard Paul


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## Dunkel_Boy (1/4/05)

Fantastic news Paul, and welcome!
I _third_ the notion to have some sent up here, I'd love to try some.
Actually, I know my mum would love to try some too... mum and dad are both highly competitive ballroom dancers, and are massive fans.
All the best.


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## Backlane Brewery (1/4/05)

At the risk of coming across as the sort of pedantic ratbag I warned Paul about when he emailed me to say he was looking at joining the site :angry: - if you clicked thru the link in my original post you would see that if you want to get someone local to stock this you need to email (via the site, not via post or PM here) their details so Paul can approach them.  

FWIW, I stopped off at Victorian Wine in Middle Park this arvo and picked up a couple.
Mmmm, it's very very good indeed, I have a cold one sitting next to me as I type.
Ale-y yet peachy, nowhere near as aggressively fruity as a framboise or a cherry Kriek. It is a VERY easy quaffer. 5.2%, too.
And there's a free tasting session down here in Melbourne next week.... :chug:

If I make it up for the Sydney AHB pub crawl there will probably be a six pack (at least) in my bag...first come first served.


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## Dunkel_Boy (1/4/05)

Alright... I'll go to my local Grape and demand a few cases of peach ale.


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## Ross (1/4/05)

Backlane Brewery said:


> At the risk of coming across as the sort of pedantic ratbag I warned Paul about when he emailed me to say he was looking at joining the site :angry: - if you clicked thru the link in my original post you would see that if you want to get someone local to stock this you need to email (via the site, not via post or PM here) their details so Paul can approach them.
> 
> [post="52174"][/post]​




On Pauls site he says he's not interested in interstate distributers yet, so not mch point emailing. but if he wants to send a crate or 2 up here I'd gladly chip in with the others...


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## Wreck (1/4/05)

Hi Paul,

I'm sure a lot of us here started out with a Cooper's kit, and watched your video that came with it.

Just one question, did Lisa ever actually drink a beer?  

Wreck.


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## warrenlw63 (2/4/05)

Mercs Own said:


> Warren can you remember what forum it was? I am thinknng possibly the more beer forum. Excuse me for not replying!
> 
> [post="52129"][/post]​



No worries Paul and welcome on board. (The forum was craftbrewer.org),

Better late than never. Good to have a public voice on our forum.  

Good luck with your projects. Hope it pans out. One good thing about working out at Holgates would be sampling their products. Not a bad drop. (Particularly served off the handpumps at Keatings :super: :super: )


Warren -


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## Mercs Own (2/4/05)

Thanks all for the warm welcome!!! I am sorry to have missed out on this board for so long!

I would love to have the beer available every where around Australia and that is certainly the aim. In the short term I am just trying to set up a network in Melbourne so as to get the business started and solid. I do have a company having a look at distributing in Sydney - so any one who has a bottle shop or knows of a bottle shop that would be serious in stocking the beer then drop me a line via my web site - www.mercswon.com.au and I will give them a call. If I can get enough places interested then I would send up a pallet and do some tastings. Same goes for Brisbane!! 

Also keep an eye on the web site for little events that are happening!

Wreck Lisa did sample some beer! Not hard to look at is she?!!

BackLane - glad you tried some beer - they are good people down at the Vic wine centre. By the way the beer is 5.5% I am going to pop down there for my birthday lunch and of course I will be drinking Mercs Own!!

Hey Wes - the good news is I have finally ordered a brewing system!! It is going to be my pilot brewing system for researching and developing recipes. I have orderd a B3 1550 from More Beer. If any doesnt know of these sytems click the link on my website. They are pretty smick!

Hopefully I am going to do a brew today - mini mash malt extract - then watch the super bikes at Phillip Island tomorrow.

Cheers


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## Dunkel_Boy (2/4/05)

The B3 1550 is certainly pretty schmick, I should get two...


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## voota (2/4/05)

http://www.ratebeer.com/Beer/mercs-own-peach-ale/43380/

Not a big rap from this bloke. 'Paul' seems to think its ok though <_<

Regardless, I'm still bloody keen to give it a try. Good luck to you Paul


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## rodderz (2/4/05)

Best of luck with it Paul, and welcome to the site. I'm sure you will benefit from use of forums such as this which help a great deal to get it out into the public even more


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## grunter (2/4/05)

the b3 1550

IM jealous


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## Mercs Own (2/4/05)

OUCH!  The rate beer review hurts a bit but I also cannot fault it. I just like those qualities more then the reviewer does. 

It is funny how people react to the label and packaging. In true style some people hate it and others love it. I chose those colours so as to stand out from what else is in the fridge and be different. In fact when I decided to make the beer I decided that I may as well be different from what everyone else is doing. Novelty factor yes but still a worthy beer. So I went with the peach idea and also steered away from using a wheat yeast as I was concerned that the wheat yeast may add to the acidity - especially a wit yeast. Peach juice was a big unknown. How it would ferment out, how it would react with the yeast, what residual flavours etc

At the end of the day I am fairly happy with the product. I say fairly as it is a work in progress. The first brew - the one reviewed - contains 15% peach juice - which I think does over run the malt character of the beer and is strong on the acidity. The latest batch - not on sale yet as I still have 40 cases of the old stock to move - has a total Peach juice addition of 10% which has worked better and allowed the malt to come out more, the acid and tartness are still there but are a little more balanced.

The next brew I will adjust the finishing hops - add some extra and perhaps also look at adjusting the mash temp up another degree to encourage that malt sweetness that will counter the acidity and tartness that the peach contributes. I am toying with the idea of usingsome crystal to fill out the body question but I really like the colour as it is. Maybe some cara?

I currently use a london ale yeast - the same that Holgate use for their beers. It sits in my bottles a little more chunky for want of a better word where as in Holgates Macedon Ale it tends to dust a bit more - another variable affect from the peach.

So the recipe for anyone who may want to make it at home or even make comment on how I could improve it:
75% pale malt, 25% wheat, 10% depectinized peach juice two additions tettnang hops - bittering 60 mins aroma at turn off - London ale yeast fresh from the fermenter. Srm 4 ibu20 alc 5.5% from a total malt bill of 235 kilo.

Mullet says..."It annoys me that yet another new Australian micro beer is taking the novelty route as opposed to concentrating on making some good, solid beer, which is what the industry in this country so desperately needs" Paul says..What annoys me is when a new micro brewery brings out a clone of what is already available many times over. My mission is to engage, educate and push the boundaries of what people percieve beer to be and to encourage and enlighten people to what be beer can be.

I have a more mainstream style beer in the works that I hope will sit by the Peach Ale harmoniously well. But true to form it will be a little different and no it is not my much touted Pumpkin Ale!!


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## jgriffin (2/4/05)

First off Welcome to the forum Paul. I'm sure i'm just as jealous as many of the other posters are here thinking about the fact that you actually get to brew your own beer on a large scale and sell it. And as for the new brew system :super:



Mercs Own said:


> OUCH! The rate beer review hurts a bit but I also cannot fault it. I just like those qualities more then the reviewer does.


Well that's certainly diplomatic and very fair of you Paul, i'll have to reserve my judgment until my first taste. Seems a few of us Brizzy people want a taste, maybe we'll have to get a private shipment 



> So the recipe for anyone who may want to make it at home or even make comment on how I could improve it:
> 75% pale malt, 25% wheat, 10% depectinized peach juice two additions tettnang hops - bittering 60 mins aroma at turn off - London ale yeast fresh from the fermenter. Srm 4 ibu20 alc 5.5% from a total malt bill of 235 kilo.


Geez, and you freely give away your recipe. Most people keep these pretty close to their chest. I wonder how many people have experience enough brewing peach beers to coment though... :blink: 


> Mullet says..."It annoys me that yet another new Australian micro beer is taking the novelty route as opposed to concentrating on making some good, solid beer, which is what the industry in this country so desperately needs" Paul says..What annoys me is when a new micro brewery brings out a clone of what is already available many times over. My mission is to engage, educate and push the boundaries of what people percieve beer to be and to encourage and enlighten people to what be beer can be.


What, not another micro aussie pale ale? <_< 


> I have a more mainstream style beer in the works that I hope will sit by the Peach Ale harmoniously well. But true to form it will be a little different and no it is not my much touted Pumpkin Ale!!
> [post="52288"][/post]​



Pumpkin Ale? Now THAT sounds interesting, i'm not sure what joe public would think though, i think you might need a pretty good rep to get people to stock that one, although i'm sure it's delicious.

Hope to see you around some more, although between starting a brewing company and judging on TV, i'm sure your pretty busy.

Cheers and :beer:


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## Dunkel_Boy (2/4/05)

Great post Paul, I wouldn't worry about what he said in the review.
I will make this up soon... what are you planning to mash at, 68?
The yeast will probably limit you... but you generally design a beer around your limiting factor. I'm glad the peach juice is de-pectinised, don't want any methanol in there!

The beauty of this forum is that you can throw a recipe up and 5 people will make it, maybe change one factor, and you can get all the feedback.
Best of luck.


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## Hoops (2/4/05)

jgriffin said:


> Pumpkin Ale? Now THAT sounds interesting, i'm not sure what joe public would think though, i think you might need a pretty good rep to get people to stock that one, although i'm sure it's delicious.
> 
> Cheers and :beer:
> [post="52291"][/post]​


Just market it as 99% fat free Low GI Low carb etc etc with the added goodness of real pumpkin!


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## Mercs Own (2/4/05)

Dukel, I already mash at 68 so I am wondering about going to 69 or 70 - exciting isnt it?!

Jgriffin, I dont know of many or any people that have done a peach beer maybe because it is not actualy all that suitable??! I dont know of any commercial examples besides the belgian styles which my beer is not akin to and which are often essence based.

Pyramid brewery in Seatle does an apricot ale which is quite good although the apricot is from an extract and is very perfumed something I could have done but didnt want to. The peach juice is fantastic but once the yeast gets through with it there is not much peach left.

And sadly yes I am working on a micro pale ale. If a peach ale is too much then a pumkin ale will be too so a micro pale ale will be next. Got to make sales and keep Mullet happy


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## johnno (2/4/05)

Hi and welcome to the board Mercs Own. Hope you stick around and make yourself a regular visitor to our little community.
I also started with a Coopers kit. I remember vaguely watching the video. I am embarassed to say I had no idea you were into homebrewing.

cheers
johnno


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## Backlane Brewery (3/4/05)

Got to say (ahem!) that I had the last peach ale for breakfast this morning, after a big night out (yeah yeah at Ding Dong, watching the Devastations, drinking Cooper's pale stubbies.And no I didn't pull) 
ANYWAY I'm willing to testify it's better than orange juice the morning after. Last of the 4 I bought, will get some more ASAP.  

jeez just read some of the other posts that have greeted paul/merc's own...we're a f^%&ing friendly bunch sometimes aren't we? what with rate beer...and really, but really, mullet, who EVER gets a "free pass" here? :blink: 

pale or pumpkin..check your R Daniels boys..

Will edit this later on. Peach ale for brekky,  :super: and on HB all day...time for bed.


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## Ross (3/4/05)

Mercs Own said:


> !
> 
> Jgriffin, I dont know of many or any people that have done a peach beer maybe because it is not actualy all that suitable??! I dont know of any commercial examples besides the belgian styles which my beer is not akin to and which are often essence based.
> 
> ...



mercs own - Ijust enjoyed a bottle of Baders golden Glory, brewed with extract of peach blossom - have you tried it?

http://www.beer-pages.com/notes/brewery.php?id=badger

good luck with your venture - every AGer's dream....


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## spog (3/4/05)

welcome to the site paul, i am passing through melbourne next week so i will a few samples.cheers :chug:


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## Dunkel_Boy (3/4/05)

Paul - I'll probably mash it at 67-68C, with 75% pale, 20-22% wheat and 3-5% carapils/caramalt... just will keep the colour down. Probably Amarillo I'll use, through the whole lot. And, London ale yeast... and 10% depectinised peach juice. Hopefully it will be drinkable! I'd buy those last 5 cases if you want to ship them up here?


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## voota (3/4/05)

Paul, you get get it distributed to King & Godferys in Carlton. They have a great range and the guy there said they move heaps of Aussie micros, they had sold out of Jamesons raspberry ale and the guy seemed pretty interested when I asked him to stock your beer, i'll stay on their back about it.


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## kook (3/4/05)

Mercs Own said:


> Pyramid brewery in Seatle does an apricot ale which is quite good although the apricot is from an extract and is very perfumed something I could have done but didnt want to. The peach juice is fantastic but once the yeast gets through with it there is not much peach left.
> 
> And sadly yes I am working on a micro pale ale. If a peach ale is too much then a pumkin ale will be too so a micro pale ale will be next. Got to make sales and keep Mullet happy
> [post="52353"][/post]​




Hi Paul, and welcome to the site.

I know this is completely off-topic, but I've cooked some of your beer influenced recipes from your website before, including making my own twists on them. The hoegaarden risotto is a regular I cook over here 

I cannot speak for mullet myself, but as a ratebeer member I have to say that he was probably just trying to be as objective to his own tastes as possible. Everyone has their own tastes in beer, and it probably just didnt suit his. I think he is probably more acustomed to lambics when it comes to fruit beers.

I have to admit I have tried very few fruit beers I like that are not lambics. It will be interesting to see if i like it when i get a chance to try it.


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## Mercs Own (3/4/05)

Dunkel I look forward to hearing how it turns out. I am not a big fan of amarillo - although the Speculator down at the James Squire Brewhouse in Melb is certainly a favourite of mine and it has gobfuls of the stuff. Billy Bells wheat beer has a big handful also but I dont find it as appealling. It seems to be a hop that you use when you want people to know there is a hop in the beer. It is also fast becoming the "in" hop and so I am steering away from it. Oh and I will look into some shipping charges!!

Voota, thanks for the tip - keep asking them for it and I will look them up in the book - unles you can send me their phone number. Unfortunately the police department decided that they wanted to get my licence back off me for a little while due to me having a little tooooo much fun on my motorbike in a very quite and wide industrial back street - a strange place to have a speed camera I thought??! I will get up to see them in a couple of weeks.

Kook glad to hear you are enjoying the risotto and hopefully a couple of other recipes as well! I was holding beer dinners at a hotel in Melbourne last year. They changed hands and I am now investigating holding them elsewhere. I will let you know about them and if you cant make it you can always getthemoff the site.


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## Trent (4/4/05)

Paul
Welcome to the site, and good to hear that yer having success with yer brewing. I havent had the pleasure to try your beer, nor the pyramid apricot ale, but would have to suggest that you try and get your hands on a Magic Hat #9 from the vermont (US) brewery magic hat. It is also an apricot ale. I have tried quite a few apricot beers, and this one stands head and shoulders above the rest. Dunno if they use juice of fruit though.
All the best
Trent


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## Ross (4/4/05)

Paul,

looking at your reply to the ratebeer review it would appear that you were not entirely happy with your product - is it wise to make your initial launch with a "work in progress" beer? It would appear to me you are in danger of putting people off your beer & damaging your chances of repeat business, while the people who enjoy the product will reorder to find the product has changed. I would have thought consistancy of product to be paramount?

I do wish you every success & I'm green with envy - just surprised that this ale seems to have been hurried out, but then maybe there were reasons this could not be avoided?


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## Mercs Own (4/4/05)

Trent, I have just had - two nights ago - a Magic Hat IPA. My sister is visiting from New York and brought me a selection of beers from Vermont as a birthday present. I enjoyed it very much! No Apricot ale though.

Ross, the beer wasnt rushed out to market we just didnt and dont have the funds or ability to do experimental batches of 12hectolitres. Doing 50 litre test brews is helpful but the scaling up to the 12 hec isnt that straight forward and there will always be variants. I could have chosen to wait a year and done alot of brews at home on my soon to be arriving mash system but my investors were pushing me to get it going. How often have you gone to a brew pub or a fellow home brewing mates place to taste their beer that was great the last batch only to find they have played or tweaked it yet again? I think this is the great thing about the micro brewery. We can tweak the product. I agree once we feel we have it exactly right that is the end of the tweaking process. I know from working with Paul Holgate and having a few drinks with the Mountain Goat that they are releasing product to the market and continue to tweak until they are happy. The realities of the commercial market are unless you have a large heap of money to burn you have to put the product out there. I discussed with my investor the possibility of not being happy enough with the beer do we dump it and start over. They supported the possibility and the loss of income if that was neccessary - thank fully it wasnt. The beer is good and even better getting better with each tweak.

I know of a micro that dumped 6 or 7 25 hec brews before they were happy with one aspect of it - now that is having a heap of money.


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## Ross (4/4/05)

paul,

I guessed it was probably something along those lines - nice to have a brewery that responds so well to questions - looking forward to giving it a go when it gets this far....

cheers & all the best...


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## Dunkel_Boy (4/4/05)

Paul,
The plan was to keep a carton for myself, and give 2-3 to a local-ish bottleshop, a pretty high traffic one which stocks a lot of boutique beers. I hope that's legal, and since I'll be giving it to them free of charge, they shouldn't give me grief! That will leave me with one or two to give to Ross or somebody else. At least that's the plan...
Cheers,
Adrian


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## Ross (4/4/05)

You beauty!!!


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## Malnourished (4/4/05)

Mercs Own said:


> Mullet says..."It annoys me that yet another new Australian micro beer is taking the novelty route as opposed to concentrating on making some good, solid beer, which is what the industry in this country so desperately needs" Paul says..What annoys me is when a new micro brewery brings out a clone of what is already available many times over. My mission is to engage, educate and push the boundaries of what people percieve beer to be and to encourage and enlighten people to what be beer can be.



Oh dear. I am mullet. It seems I have a bit of a habit of causing trouble on this board! Sorry!

I don't really want to start an argument or anything but I probably should elaborate on what I was trying to express in the quote above. What I think of the beer is probably expressed sufficiently in my rating, though I have another bottle lying around so when I drink that I may change my opinion, but don't bet on it. My opinion of the beer is just one opinion, so take it for what it is. What I tend to do on Ratebeer is to look at people's highest-rated beers - if they like beers I like, then I generally trust their opinion. I would suggest people do that with my own ratings to see if I'm worth believing! (Probably not)

Anyway, I'm generally pretty disappointed with the Australian micro scene. There are a number of very good beers, but there is far too much crap and really nothing at a world-class level (though I think Thorogood's ciders might be up there). I hate it when micros bring out a Coopers Pale Ale or Boags Premium clone - what's the point? I also hate it when breweries bring out gimmick beers when they could be making something serious and good. (I think Blue Tongue falls into both categories! :blink Styles I would like to see brewed more here include Schwarzbier, Munich Dunkel, Rauchbier, Kellerbier, Vienna, strong bottle-conditioned Belgians, Alt, Kolsch, Baltic Porter, Barley Wine, Imperial Stout, Berliner Weisse, Biere de Garde, California Common, Imperial IPA, Mild, Saison, IPA with more than 35IBUs and generally anything served on cask (oh how I miss the Brandon  ). 

In the interest of fairness, I should probably mention some breweries which I feel are doing the right thing (ie. making beers not driven by marketing purposes, and making them well). Mountain Goat, Holgate, Little Creatures, Wig & Pen and Paddys (_the _example of substance over style hehe). I've probably missed a few. In fact I think the Wig & Pen is the perfect example of what I look for in an Aussie micro - they do a LOT of interesting styles which few other places do, and generally do them very well.

Also, opon re-reading my rating that the first line could be misconstrued as me having a go at Paul or somehow doubting his beery credentials. It was not my intention. I was just trying to express my feeling that most people will think of Strictly Ballroom, not beer, when they think of Paul Mercurio.


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## Snow (4/4/05)

Dunkel_Boy said:


> That will leave me with one or two to give to Ross or somebody else. At least that's the plan...
> Cheers,
> Adrian
> [post="52538"][/post]​



Hey Dunkel, I'm "somebody else"!  

Seriously, I'd be keen to go in on a purchase with you.

Cheers - Snow


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## Dunkel_Boy (4/4/05)

Yep, that's fair!


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## kitkat (4/4/05)

Malnourished said:


> making beers not driven by marketing purposes



Are there any non-profit micros out there ? They're businesses, not charities catering to the demanding taste buds of 0.1% of homebrewers.

if you make beer and intend to sell the beer to recoup your investment and pay salaries, taxes, etc, you have to make something that'll sell.

Whilst it'd be nice to have an alt brewed and distributed here, it'd sell so little that it'd be commercial suicide. Doesn't matter how good the beer is, if people don't buy it, the micro will sink.

Nothing personal, but it seems some people only see the beer and not the economic reality.

I'd suggest micros can probably offer unusual beers on their premises as limited runs, but for example bottling and shipping all over Australia a beer that won't sell because people don't have a clue what it is (and when they taste it, it's so different from what they expect or are used to that they think it's bad) would just be stupid.


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## warrenlw63 (4/4/05)

Or OTOH if the micro ain't got the beer you want.

Make it yourself. B) 

Warren -


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## Malnourished (4/4/05)

kitkat said:


> Malnourished said:
> 
> 
> > making beers not driven by marketing purposes
> ...



This is exactly the attitude that I feel many micros are taking and I reckon they're wrong. I think a good beer, regardless of style, will sell well. Little Creatures is the perfect example in this instance - nobody in Australia had even tasted an APA a few years ago and now they are nationwide and even exporting! They started out by making sure they had a good/great beer and marketed accordingly, not the other way around.

Coopers has defined the "Australian Pale Ale" style and it is readily available and cheap - why flood the market with similar beers? 

And how does Merc's Own Peach Ale fit into this "economic reality"?

I'm with Warren - I got into homebrewing to make stuff you can't buy here. It'd just be nice to be able to buy one example of, say, Altbier to know whether or not I'm on the right track.


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## Dunkel_Boy (4/4/05)

That is true... after all, WE would buy it.


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## chiefman (4/4/05)

Hi Paul Welcome to the Forum

I could kill for a great tasting mango when in season so for your next project you should try and consider a mango beer. 

Beer and Mangos What a combination


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## Kai (4/4/05)

kitkat said:


> Malnourished said:
> 
> 
> > making beers not driven by marketing purposes
> ...



I think what Malnourished means is that megabreweries view their product as nothing more than a commodity; something to make as cheaply as possible for the sole purpose of making money. Whereas, although a microbrewery does indeed want to make money, they often also do it for the love of beer and want to produce as great a beer as they can. Of course, there are exceptions to this (ie crap microbreweries in it for the money only, or big breweries that do care about their beer). 

Not saying I necessarily agree with it, but I think that was the point he was trying to make.


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## Sean (4/4/05)

Two questions for Malnourished:

1. Where, other than the US, does your world of thriving domestic micros reproducing all the world's beers styles exist? I can't think of any other country where a large range of domestically brewed non-domestic styles are available. Certainly not the UK.

2. What makes you think that an Australian brewed Alt, say, would be a good reliable guide to the style? There are several beers available here calling themselves English style bitters and, although several of them are excellent beers (Holgate Old Ale, Hightail, 3 Ravens what ever its called, some of the Wig & Pen beers etc), I can't say any of them are an especially good guide to the authentic thing. If you really want to know what an Alt tastes like, you need at least one, preferably several, imports of good examples from the place of origin. Otherwise it seems to me you just end up creating an Australian-alt style.


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## Malnourished (4/4/05)

Sean said:


> Two questions for Malnourished:
> 
> 1. Where, other than the US, does your world of thriving domestic micros reproducing all the world's beers styles exist? I can't think of any other country where a large range of domestically brewed non-domestic styles are available. Certainly not the UK.



It doesn't, of course. And it is unrealistic to think that all styles would be brewed in such a small market. That doesn't mean it couldn't or shouldn't happen, at least to some degree. I don't think comparing Australia to the UK is ideal because the UK has such an ingrained beer culture (as does Germany, Belgium and the Czech Republic.) I think Canada is perhaps a better comparison ("New World", strong British influence, little/no indigenous beer culture) and it would appear (I don't have much experience with Canadian beer outside of Unibroue) that they are a long way ahead of us, though the American influence is obviously a driving force there.



Sean said:


> 2. What makes you think that an Australian brewed Alt, say, would be a good reliable guide to the style? There are several beers available here calling themselves English style bitters and, although several of them are excellent beers (Holgate Old Ale, Hightail, 3 Ravens what ever its called, some of the Wig & Pen beers etc), I can't say any of them are an especially good guide to the authentic thing. If you really want to know what an Alt tastes like, you need at least one, preferably several, imports of good examples from the place of origin. Otherwise it seems to me you just end up creating an Australian-alt style.
> [post="52621"][/post]​



There was (is?) an Australian-brewed alt! Heidi (brewed at Mountain Goat by a guy who I think was called Nischwitz Cole) and it was pretty good I thought. I guess I was thinking more about imports when I said that, but I'd bet that more than a few of our current commercial brewers have been to Dusseldorf. I don't think there's any reason to believe that an Alt brewed in Australia would necessarily become an "Australian-alt". LCPA and Speculator, for instance, don't taste "Australian" alongside the few American APAs or IPAs I've had. That said, I still reckon I'd rather have an "Australian-alt" than yet another premium lager/pale ale/dark ale/witbier/pils. Of course ultimately it's not really about styles and accurately recreating them, just whether the beer is good or not - and I still reckon Aussie breweries could do better.

I guess my negativity isn't directed solely at Australian brewers, but the paucity of good imported beer as well. We can get pale lagers from nearly every country in the world, but very little of the really good stuff. I was going to say that it's understandable because of the size of the Australian market and the distance from most of the great breweries of the world, but then I remembered NZ gets Cantillon, Thomas Hardy, Boon and Burton Bridge stuff (and Saison Dupont!)


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## Steve Lacey (4/4/05)

Interestingly I agree with both mal (aka mullet) and kitkat. And I'm not sure that mal's point is necessarily advocating the rise of the State-run loss-making micro-brewery. Obviously the micro has to be commercially viable. But the point is, you have to have a balance between doing something _worthy_ and making something that will sell. If you put too much emphasis on the latter, you end up just copying what is already available, and really, what _is_ the point of that? But if you make really top notch characterful beers that are not otherwise available, it is not so much as capturing some part of an existing market, but creating a whole new one. So in that sense, micros do have to be somewhat adventurous and take a few risks while being pretty bloody good marketers and educators of prospective customers. I think the best example in Australia that I'm familiar with (and I'm getting way out of touch) was the Malt Shovel. They brought out beers that Joe Public had never heard of, but every bottle label was an instalment in Beer Styles 101. Of course they had the financial security of a huge company behind them to do it properly and to take the risk.

My 2c

Steve


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## Steve Lacey (4/4/05)

sorry, I hadn't read the whole thread before posting that last reply. I'd also add that the micro scene in Japan is not unlike the way it seems to be developing in Australia. There is a lot of hit and miss, with more miss than hit. Australia is probably ahead in that regard. There is, or was in the first five to ten years, a lack of creativity and passion, and a lot of entrants did just see it as a way of making a buck. Many of those operators have gone under, and it is the better breweries more dedicated to the craft and to the principle of bringing out a product that offers a real alternative that are surviving and/or prospering.


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## Trent (4/4/05)

Paul
I havent trid the magic hat IPA, the apricot is called Magic Hat Number 9, and it is very good. I am sure that ya have gotten to try some of the other good beers from that corner of the US, like Saranac, and Yeungling, and some of the other micros. If yer sister lives in New York, and comes over often, get her to bring ya a bottle of Arrogant Bastard Ale by Stone breweries, see if ya could come up with something similar to that. I dunno that it would sell very well in Oz, as it is probably one of the most offensive beers I have ever had (as opposed to most commercial crap ya can get here). None of my aussie mates that have tried it think it is very nice, but I loved it. very malty, hoppy and super heavy - just what the average home brewers does at home anyway! (Check out arrogantbastard.com for a supplier list for NY.) Sierra Nevada Celebration is a cracker, and for something with a raspberry undertone, the last Sam Adams winterbrew I had was great, so get her to bring some of them next time. Better yet, go on a tax write-off "beer education tour". The US micro scene is really good for fruit-esque beers, and all other sorts of top drops. I would be stoked if that sorta scene took off here in Australia, but as someone said, it could also be commercial suicide. 
Cheifman, I did a mango amber once, turned out quite nicely, may do one again next mango season, I reckon ya should try one yaself. 
Malnourished, I lived in Canada for 9 months and am getting married to a canadian girl, and have to agree that their micro scene is WAY ahead of ours. I think it is the US influence, as you said. I think that someone on here once said that the US micro scene only has 3% of the market. I lived in California for 9 months aswell, and I reckon amongst the younger crew, it must be around 15-20% Maybe what we need is someone ready to take a big chance, and create a new market (like Steve just said). Dunno if it would work, but if someone had the money to try, it would be worth a shot.
Wow, this is a pretty long rant. Ummmm, I'l shut up now
All the best
Trent


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## Malnourished (4/4/05)

Trent said:


> Maybe what we need is someone ready to take a big chance, and create a new market (like Steve just said). Dunno if it would work, but if someone had the money to try, it would be worth a shot.[post="52633"][/post]​



I agree - I'll do the brewing if someone else wants to put up the cash


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## Dunkel_Boy (4/4/05)

Trent said:


> I dunno that it would sell very well in Oz, as it is probably one of the most offensive beers I have ever had (as opposed to most commercial crap ya can get here). None of my aussie mates that have tried it think it is very nice, but I loved it.
> [post="52633"][/post]​



Hmmm, I don't know about other people, but I wasn't convinced.

I think hit or miss, the Australian craft brew market should be supported, for a few obvious reasons, one of which can also be broken down into the fact that maybe one day we'll be trying to sell our Munich dunkel, and if there are a lot of Aussie boutique beers on the market 5 years down the track, we'll have a much better chance than if everything gets shut down right now just because it's not a 10/10 beer or because it has been done before.

EDIT: Damn that's a long sentence.


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## Trent (4/4/05)

Dunkel-Boy
I agree that we should support the craft brew market. I am not sure if my comment came across as bagging out the craft brews we have here, I was referring to things like VB, New, Extra Dry, etc. If I am buying beer, I always head for Little Creatures or Squires (even though they are backed by Tooheys) or something similar, like Coopers Sparkling. Arrogant bastard is not a beer that most people like, was probably the point I was trying to get across most - if you ever get the chance to have one, if ya havent already, you will agree. "Hated by many, loved by few" is one of their catch phrases. I think the biggest thing holding back the craft brew market is the taxes and duties on it. At my local bottlo, Little Creatures is $72 a case! In the US, craft beers are alot cheaper, admittedly though still double to triple the price of mainstream swill, kinda like here. I read a thread recently that was saying somewhere in England they were encouraging micros by having a sliding scale for taxes, depending on how much you made. Basically, the more ya put out, the more expensive it becomes, allowing micros to compete with the major brands. I think thats a great idea, and I really hope the micro scene takes off, cause the more good beers there are to choose from, the better off we all are. And that was a long sentence, dont tell me ya edited it to make it shorter, did ya?
All the best
Trent


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## jgriffin (4/4/05)

The whole thing on taxes is a good point, and one i've been thinking of takin up with my local MP.
Australian wineries don't pay GST on "cellar door" sales - there are some limits etc, but basically it's a way to promote the industry and help the small guy. Why can't micro's get the same thing?


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## barfridge (4/4/05)

There is one very nice Alt that is made in Australia. It's made by bug ocean brewery, who are down margaret river way, and its a very tasty drop.

ratebeer page here: http://www.ratebeer.com/Beer/bug-ocean-altbier/28056/


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## tdh (4/4/05)

Altbier! Grumpy's Brewhaus has a 'Munich malt driven' Altbier on tap (has had for 2 years) called the Auld Fokker. It's one of our 'regular beers' and will probably stay that way.

tdh (aka GT)


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## kitkat (4/4/05)

LOL, out of this thread I found an alt 

Back to economy: I think there's a finite market for micros. I don't think that a new micro brewery bringing out interesting beer will create a market, it'll take customers from another. Megaswiller will try a beer if you give it to them, but then when comes their turn to buy a beer for a party, they'll see the price tags and go back to their CUB/Toohey.

Diversify too much, and your beer will stay on the shelf, because customers will not pay $5 a stubby to try all 12 specialty brews of your range. So you aim for two or three that will sell. No prizes for guessing that you won't try to make outlandish (to the basic beer drinker) beers.

Also, I find it interesting that we're discussing supporting micros by buying bottles - I've only been brewing 2 months but my last commercial beer buying was 1 month ago. I'm not going to spend $50-60 on european imports, and certainly not $72 (as quoted) on aussie beers.
Seriously, I think it'd be interesting to see how much cash / month the people here spend on average on commercial (megaswill and/or micro) beers in bottles. 

I think we're like the good mates that say "yeah yeah good idea" but don't actually buy the product - because we make it. I already have 50+ homemade bottles waiting to be drunk, why would I buy another slab? (yeah, I know, when going to parties, I'm not that confident in my brew yet  ).
We may buy a bottle or two to try out, but can you honestly say you'd buy a six pack a week?

My point is that a micro that caters only for the HB crowd won't last long. So they aim for a wider audience, and this means selling more well-known types.

At this stage of the aussie market, maybe it's the knowledgeable beer drinkers like people here who help make a micro successful, but in the end if they want to expand they need to attract people who don't necessarily want to drink something that they don't know how to pronounce. And hence you end up with the usual pale ale, lager, bitter, etc.


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## Gough (4/4/05)

There's good points on both sides of this argument. I'm a firm believer in the 'build it and they will come' theory ie: as Little Creatures did, brew an interesting and up to that point pretty much unique in Australia brew and people will have a reason to seek out and support your brewery. On the other hand if it was my cold hard earned on the line, I can readily see the temptation to go with something that you think people will readily accept, if nothing else to give you the capital to experiment in the future. For every LCPA out there, how many failed 'experimental' micro beers must there be. FWIW maybe it is because I am from Australia's black beer central, but I reckon Alt beer would go over a treat here in Aus if marketed well. I certainly loved it in Dusseldorf - still have a can of Diebels untouched on my shelf as a souvenir...

For all that, Paul Merc. is brewing a peach beer, which is hardly a 'stock standard' brew. 'Malnourished' has tasted it and didn't rate it. Others no doubt will love it. This is the wonderful world of subjectivity. I'd reckon though that he has taken a risk in brewing something different to the norm and deserves support/respect for doing so. At least he hasn't done a Blue Tongue and produced yet another 'Premium Lager' without any flavour/interest/point of difference at all...

Haven't tasted your beer Merc but all the best. The more having a go the better...

Shawn.


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## Weizguy (4/4/05)

> JGriffin: The whole thing on taxes is a good point, and one i've been thinking of takin up with my local MP.
> Australian wineries don't pay GST on "cellar door" sales - there are some limits etc, but basically it's a way to promote the industry and help the small guy. Why can't micro's get the same thing?



I like the cut of your jib, man. To whom should we direct our shower of email? All our local MPs and what Minister in the Howard cabinet?

I'm on this train. Testify (2nd time 2nite).

Uncle Sethule


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## TasChris (4/4/05)

Sorry but I can't agree with a couple of the recent posts. Any alternative from the mainstream pap has to be a positive step. 
If someone wishes to invest in brewing a beer that doesn't fit the mainstream culture they should be applauded.
This is what we spend a hell of a lot of time doing, educating our own tounges and those of our mates to step away from the dreaded mega swill.

We can't expect comercial operations to travel so far from the mainstream that they will produce a beer that interests us but alienates(?) the rest of the market.
They are trapped between being " another boring premium beer and something truely exciting" by the fact that they need to make money and can't exclude the majority of beer drinkers by making something that is too foreign to the majority of beer drinkers.
Lets be realistic
Chris


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## Mercs Own (6/4/05)

Hey Mullet, sadly I am lumped like it or not with the fact that the first thought that comes to peoples mind when I am mentioned is Strictly Ballroom. The only time in my career since making that movie that I have ever made any reference to the film is on my bottle label. I do not intend to limit my self in the same manner that for too often many people do although I am happy to say that I am noticing a small but early change. I love it when people come up to me and say "I have your video at home, it's great" I smile and await for the inevitable....they say "yeah The Coopers Home Brew Video" 

Little Creatures is a good example of people with a lot of experience - Sail and Anchor/Matilda Bay Brewing Co Phil Sexton etc and whom had a heap of money behind them - 20% being Lion Nathans. They basically made a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale (most Aussies would never have heard of it) which they had to tone down due to it being a little too hoppy for the drinking public. They had the money and the experience to do it that way. Have you tried their version of a Trummer Pils? Very disappointing in my book and a good example of what this discussion is about. They have brought out a clone that is not in the same league as the original but with the marketing behind them they will sell it.

Mercs own Peach Ale fits in right at the other (bottom) end of the scale. Two of my friends become investors and support my idea of a beer. It is based on the fairly unknown success of fruit and Vegetable beers in the Micro industry with in the US and Canada. Their is no huge marketing budget just me lucky enough to trade off my name for the time being. Eventually the brand will be bigger than me and if not hopefully then I will be rich and it wont matter! IN the absence of big bucks and heaps of experience I chose the path of something completely different - it will either work or it wont - we will know by the end of the year. The other side of the economic coin is that it costs me about $47 a case to make my beer - Little Creatures I am guessing at would most definately be less than $20 a case. Brewing what you want at home is a much smarter option.

Chiefman I was toying with the idea of Mango before deciding on the peach - I reckon it would be good but with the peach all of those sweet sugary beautiful fresh fruit flavours and aromas kind of departed after the yeast was through having it's feed. I imagine Mago would go the same way. Some of the micros in America use a fruit essence and actually put it into the bottle at bottling time. To my taste that makes it way too perfumey.

Steve makes a good point and I would like to think that that is what I am trying to do: make something worthy that is very different to what is on offer and will prove to be commercially viable. 

Got to take the kids for a bike ride will come back and finish this later.


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## Kai (6/4/05)

From what I've heard, Paul, fruit flavours transfer better if you rack into fruit in a secondary. I don't know what happens with sugar dissolution and further fermentation then, though. 

I have made a peach and a plum beer before, in the dim and murky past. The plum one was a bit plummy (and almost looked like fanta.. ick), but the peach one had no real peach flavour at all. Both of them I'd chucked the fruit in primary.


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## sinkas (19/4/05)

Hi all,

I just want to say that I support Merc's foray into the beer market. As soon as it makes it to WA, i will sample and comment on it to my few beer savvy mates. Tried to find it around the melbourne end of the Great Ocean road last week, but to no avail.
I am however a little surprised that Merc decided to kind of slag off some of the people who, it would seem to me are basically his allies (Little creatures et al).
At least a peach beer will be noticed amoutn g the throng of other beers available at the local bottl shop, heres hoping a few will "give it a try"
Regarding the microbr3ew scene in the USA, i was pretty well horifeied with most of the brews I tasted, to me, in NYC it seemd like each pub was trying to out do the next by putting 33 different beers on tap, some of which had 3 or 4 flavourings, a ham, pumpkin, honey and walnut ale was the last I tasted...horrendous how the hell did they get the "Ham " into it...?

hey barfridge is te ocean Bug beer available anywhere bottled in perth?

Cheers

Case


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## barfridge (19/4/05)

sinkas: I just found thier website here - http://www.bugocean.com/our_products.htm. I know the alt is on tap at clancy's and rosie o'grady's.

Looks like they're only available on tap. They have just released a kolsch as well, which is on tap at the norfolk in freo.


Is anyone keen for a tasting trip to freo?


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## barfridge (22/4/05)

It looks like merc's own has made it as far as Perth. I just got the newsletter from the international beer shop, and its in stock now. 

They also now stock mountain goat PA and IPA.

Looks like I'll be off for a little drive this weekend


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## facter (9/5/05)

Trent said:


> Paul
> Welcome to the site, and good to hear that yer having success with yer brewing. I havent had the pleasure to try your beer, nor the pyramid apricot ale, but would have to suggest that you try and get your hands on a Magic Hat #9 from the vermont (US) brewery magic hat. It is also an apricot ale. I have tried quite a few apricot beers, and this one stands head and shoulders above the rest. Dunno if they use juice of fruit though.
> All the best
> Trent
> [post="52511"][/post]​



I have, sitting in my fridge courtesy of my father who just got back from the states, a six pack of Magic Hat #9 - which I have never been able to find anywhere here in Australia - I am almost afraid to touch it, but I really really want one. I know it'll be a looonggg time before I get any more.

He also went to the brewery (as he was in Vermont) and loved it - I suggested he go there. Bastard.


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## Dunkel_Boy (9/5/05)

You're a very spiteful/resentful person aren't you facter?


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## facter (9/5/05)

Dunkel_Boy said:


> You're a very spiteful/resentful person aren't you facter?
> [post="58209"][/post]​



hahahaha, no! Not at all! Im just glad he found me some - I lived over there for quite some time, and the #9 was my favorite - I'm just sad I couldnt go with him to the brewery!! hahaha - but..I really must..try..to save the #9's. Really. awww, damn..they're not goin to last are they? 


I jsut finished reading through this thread and noticed that the IBS her ein Perth has some of Pauls beer in stock - I love my beers with a bit of fruit in them, so I'll grab some on my next time past


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## Trent (9/5/05)

You are a lucky bugger, Facter
I would love to have a 6 pack sitting in my fridge right about now. I am lucky enough to be going to canada and the states in a few months, so I will drink more than me fill then. I once spent a week pretty close to the brewery, but never made it (-40 isnt real conducive to walking), so thats something I will have to do one day. So many breweries, so little time...
All the best
Trent
PS I dont think they'll last.


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## momove (10/5/05)

Greetings Forum people!

By the sounds of people trying to get Merc's Own, I now consider myself lucky to have drank it a month or two back when Paul was in Hobart.

I have to more or less agree with the RateBeer.com opinions, but that's what it is, my opinion. I had a few thoughts while drinking the Peach Ale, such as, is peach something you want with an ale? Is an ale ever good if it's not super malty and dark, dark, dark (giving away my tastebuds right there!) ? 

All fair comments about the state of the micro-brewery market in this country, but what someone (?) said about micros in the US constantly trying to outdo each other is a good example of short term thinking. I'd argue none of us want the state of constant one-up-manship that most marketing ends up as these days. I have a brightly labelled, different style beer, you make and more brightly labelled, more different beer and so on and so forth. Until we're drinking spam lager.

Anyway, Paul, I hope your beer(s) goes in the direction we hope for all our beers, onward and upward.

Cheers!


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## Dunkel_Boy (10/5/05)

I'm still wondering if Paul is going to send me up a few cartons for me to give to local bottlos (and Ross ) to get his name out up here... (Paul's, not Ross's...)


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