# Broken brewer :(



## Colo (13/8/15)

Hello All,

Hoping to get some last ditched words of wisdom that can maybe lift my spirits. I have been brewing for years now without any issues, found a recipe I loved and kept turning this over like a homemade factory. Went on a month holiday and didnt put a brew down for another couple months after I got back (so 3 month break). Since this point I have had 9+ brews which I have had to pour down the sink seemingly all with the same infection.

Things I have tried


Replaced my whole kit...everything
Tried buying all my ingredients from a different supplier (hoping to get different batches)
Soaked everything in bleach and sat in direct sunlight (have done this everytime before putting a brew down). Then cleaned with solution before use.
Used filtered water from a different outlet in my house.
And my last & current back to basics effort (see attached picture) or last hurrah as it may be because this is costing me a fortune for no output. A wheat kit with a kg of brewers mix (Light dry Malt, Dex, Maltodex) some dry hops and the kit yeast which will most likely be a very robust ale yeast.

The infection

When the infection first popped up it appeared as big brown bubbles and dead yeast on the surface of the brew with a slight "oil slick" looking film and had a sour after taste. It looked really sick and didnt taste too crash hot. Since then the infection doesnt seem to take hold as badly, however the issue may also be with me. Since I have seen & tasted so many infected brews, I cant actually remember what a healthy brew is meant to look like and how its mean't to taste pre-carbonation?

So please take a look at the picture and tell me what you think. The two bubbles at the bottom of the photo worry me and there is some dead yeast floating on the surface and in suspension, I really cant remember if this is normal or not. To taste, it tastes fine not much of a strong beer flavour or smell at all though. After you swallow and let the remnants sit on your taste buds you do get a slight sour taste coming through...again I cant remember if this is normal or not.

Any help/advice on anything I have mentioned would be much appreciated. I live in Brisbane maybe somebody could come around and taste it, just to help dampen my insanity!


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## Cube (13/8/15)

I don't see an infection. Looks like a fermented out beer


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## Dazzbrew (13/8/15)

X2


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## paulyman (13/8/15)

X3. Photo looks fine.

Talk us through your cleaning in some more detail. Cleaning with bleach and then leaving to dry sounds fine, I use PBW rather than bleach as I've heard it doesn't play* nice with metal*. What do you mean by cleaned with solution before use? Do you mean starsan?

*edit


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## Grott (13/8/15)

I'm with you Cube, looks pretty ok to me. Hope the 9 + you tossed out didn't look like that Colo, would be such a waste.


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## Grott (13/8/15)

Colo, the drying of the bleach after soaking is not a good idea, you should drain it off then rinse throughly before drying. Prior to brewing use a sanitiser, starsan has a top reputation and doesn't need to be rinsed off.
Cheers


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## GalBrew (13/8/15)

X5. Looks fine to me!


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## paulyman (13/8/15)

grott said:


> Colo, the drying of the bleach after soaking is not a good idea, you should drain it off then rinse throughly before drying. Prior to brewing use a sanitiser, starsan has a top reputation and doesn't need to be rinsed off.
> Cheers


Good catch, I read it as bleach, rinse then dry. But that needs to be clarified as well.


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## Coodgee (13/8/15)

x6 looks like a very cleanly fermented brew. I've had plenty of brews with all sorts of flotsam hanging around after the krausen has dropped. 


with regards to oil slicks on top of the beer, I have that right now on a beer that was dry hopped with 50 grams of galaxy flowers and it tastes fine, I think it is just the hop oils. 

I am in Brisbane and would volunteer to have a taste. but I am going on holidays on saturday. do you live anywhere near greenslopes?


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## Danscraftbeer (13/8/15)

Bottling or kegging? like the rest I'm cringing thinking you have been hastily ditching...
Tasting pre ferment and after ferment is normal practice.
An infection should be obviouse as it will taste and smell fowled, soured wine vinigar etc.
But i have had many brews that were temped to ditch only from clashing flavors maybe from experimentation combinations of new tried ingrediences. But with a few kegs to play with they got kegged anyway. They were ok, drinkable but changed with time to better. Then after some time they get a thumbs up.


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## Danscraftbeer (13/8/15)

and yeah, I love the funny quotes from brewers emotions about letting bleach come anywere neer there brewing equipment.

So many less toxic and better solutions than bleach. :icon_vomit:

no direct sunlight needed or wanted in brewing.


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## Brewsta (13/8/15)

x100 I think you'll find Colo,

the brown stuff around the edges is completley normal & in my opinion the more the better, it's proof that the the wort was aerated enough & the yeast were doing their job. If you want to know what an infection looks like google hombrew infections / images.

it's a pitty you turfed them…


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/8/15)

Danscraftbeer said:


> and yeah, I love the funny quotes from brewers emotions about letting bleach come anywere neer there brewing equipment.
> 
> So many less toxic and better solutions than bleach. :icon_vomit:
> 
> no direct sunlight needed or wanted in brewing.


There is nothing wrong with bleach if rinsed and left to dry in the sunlight

Sunlight does have some sterilizing properties due to the UV


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## paulyman (13/8/15)

Danscraftbeer said:


> and yeah, I love the funny quotes from brewers emotions about letting bleach come anywere neer there brewing equipment.
> 
> So many less toxic and better solutions than bleach. :icon_vomit:
> 
> no direct sunlight needed or wanted in brewing.


I simply said I don't use it, as an all grain brewer who has copper elements it isn't for me, that isn't based on emotions that is chemistry. I did originally write chlorine instead of metal, not sure why, must have been the couple of Rogers I've had tonight?

Grott didn't say he didn't use it or try to convince the OP not to use it. He simply wanted to ensure the OP thoroughly rinsed equipment afterwards. This advice would be sound for PBW, Napisan etc also not just bleach.

So I'm at a loss as to where this comment came from or how it is at all constructive?


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/8/15)

If bleach is rinsed with hot water the chlorine evaporates very quickly


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## Danscraftbeer (13/8/15)

I wasnt refering to anything or to anyone. :unsure:
Other than brewers who have expressed thier distain at the use of bleach. Espesially in plastic fermenters. (shrugs)


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## Cube (13/8/15)

bleach and vinegar mix can be used as a no rinse sanitiser. Just have to know what you are doing at the right amounts. I used it for years with no ill tastes before moving to star san.


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## Colo (13/8/15)

Hello All,

Thank you for all the responses, to answer some of the questions...

The fermenter is only placed in the sun when full of water/bleach, as I know the sun also kills some types of bugs. I do this the day before I put a brew down, before I start the brew I remove the bleach and clean everything with a sanitizing solution and then rinse thoroughly. Nothing is left to dry and there are no chemical odours once I'm done. Note, the bleach thing was never my typical practice...it's the situation that has brought on the insanity.

Fermentation is never carried out in direct sunlight, I always cover the fermenter with a blanket to block out light with only the air lock visible.

One of the basis of my suspicions was the behaviour of the yeast I use, wb-06. While I've used many Belgium whit liquid yeasts (pre infection days) ild often use wb-06 because it was cheaper and still made a nice brew. Ive used the wb-06 yeast more times than I can count. Because I live in QLD one of the tell tale signs of this yeast is your brew has a slight banana/bubblegum smell/taste. During fermentation the gas coming out of the airlock had the banana smell as it should, however by end of fermentation I would pour a glass and the smell/taste was completely gone there would be dead yeast floating in the brew and bubbles had started to form on the surface. While it didn't look as sick as the first few infected brews, it didn't seem right and didn't seem to taste right. Rinse and repeat that outcome many times with me trying different things each time and you get 9+ brews down the sink.

But now as I have stated, I can't actually remember what's right or wrong...apart from the smell/taste of the wb-06 yeast. Has anybody had experience with this yeast in warmer temperatures?

Im thinking of bottling maybe 10 bottles of the latest brew just to see how it comes out when carbonated.


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## Rocker1986 (13/8/15)

I agree with everyone else, the photo in the first post looks perfectly fine to me, I'd be bottling the whole lot. All my brews look pretty much like that once fermentation finishes. They do taste different out of the FV, probably mainly because the beer is warm and flat, as opposed to chilled and fizzy. It's also very young beer. Perhaps you're perceiving something that isn't there due to the belief that it's infected when it may not be.

I have not used that yeast myself, though, so I wouldn't know what it's meant to taste like. Wheat beers aren't a style I enjoy very much.


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## paulyman (13/8/15)

Danscraftbeer said:


> I wasnt refering to anything or to anyone. :unsure:
> Other than brewers who have expressed thier distain at the use of bleach. Espesially in plastic fermenters. (shrugs)


Fair enough.


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## Curly79 (14/8/15)

What do you mean by " I clean everything with a sanitizing solution then rinse thoroughly"?


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## Tropico (14/8/15)

Colo said:


> Since then the infection doesnt seem to take hold as badly, however the issue may also be with me. Since I have seen & tasted so many infected brews, I cant actually remember what a healthy brew is meant to look like and how its mean't to taste pre-carbonation?
> To taste, it tastes fine not much of a strong beer flavour or smell at all though. After you swallow and let the remnants sit on your taste buds you do get a slight sour taste coming through...again I cant remember if this is normal or not.


Maybe its just a perception/sensitivity thing.

Your brews may have always been like this, but the sour taste never really came to your attention. Now that you recognise it, you have become extremely sensitive to it and look for it when you try a sample.

Just a possibility.


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## mongey (14/8/15)

I'll just add to the chorus

looks like beer to me

I have been dry hopping my last few beers with pellets and I have noticed a little oil slickness in the glass when the head subsides . I didnt notice before I was dry hoppnig but it may have been there and I'm just paying more attention now

I googled it all worried at first and figure its hop oils as someone else said. tatses fine so I figure why worry


I'd only dump beer it it tasted worse than sweat from beezbulbs sack


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## shacked (14/8/15)

Colo said:


> One of the basis of my suspicions was the behaviour of the yeast I use, wb-06. While I've used many Belgium whit liquid yeasts (pre infection days) ild often use wb-06 because it was cheaper and still made a nice brew. Ive used the wb-06 yeast more times than I can count. Because I live in QLD one of the tell tale signs of this yeast is your brew has a slight banana/bubblegum smell/taste. During fermentation the gas coming out of the airlock had the banana smell as it should, however by end of fermentation I would pour a glass and the smell/taste was completely gone there would be dead yeast floating in the brew and bubbles had started to form on the surface. While it didn't look as sick as the first few infected brews, it didn't seem right and didn't seem to taste right. Rinse and repeat that outcome many times with me trying different things each time and you get 9+ brews down the sink.
> 
> But now as I have stated, I can't actually remember what's right or wrong...apart from the smell/taste of the wb-06 yeast. Has anybody had experience with this yeast in warmer temperatures?
> 
> Im thinking of bottling maybe 10 bottles of the latest brew just to see how it comes out when carbonated.


Hey mate,

+1 for fine looking beer there. 

I used WB06 a long time ago when I was getting started. All the properties that wouldn't phase me now really freaked me out at the time. I fermented it a little warm at 22C-24C (no temp control at the time) The yeast threw off weird smells and there was loads of crap floating around at the top at the end of fermentation. I even took a jar of wort and loads of photos to the LHBS for inspection. After a few months in the bottle the beer was OK (wasn't my best brew ever).


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## HBHB (14/8/15)

Looks terribly infected with yeast.

Send it to my place. h34r:


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## TheWiggman (14/8/15)

I'm a bit lost here, you're stating you have an infection based on appearance? Or taste? Because at the end of the day taste is all that really counts. What's also got me baffled is you're tipping these brews without bottling and giving them some time. Once you've fermented the beer you've got nothing left to lose except a carb drop, so you might as well see it through.
Seeing as we're in the kits an extracts section I'm also assuming you have an HDPE fermenter and brewing using kits only which you explained earlier.

I used bleach as a cleaner for years and still do on glass. HOWEVER it is not ideal for stainless as the chlorine will attack the chromium oxide layer formed from being passivated. This will lead to surface pitting and corrosion. Likewise not ideal on HDPE for other reasons. I'd encourage you to change cleaners, but I don't think that's your problem.

Most of your comments allude to issues due to appearance, but comments regarding the taste are "seems sour". Ferment out and sample, get someone else to taste and confirm your mind isn't playing tricks on you.


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## pist (14/8/15)

I agree with wigg, ditch using the bleach. That stuff isn't good for you, and probably isn't the best thing for a HDPE fermenter. Possibly a source of the "off taste"? Pure sodium percarbonate is pretty cheap and available in 1kg lots at most LHBS, its relatively safe as it breaks down into harmless elements, hell I've even used coles ultra (unscented nappisan) though this is not as effective. The sodium perc will lift the toughest of soiling too. I use it in my brew kettle to scrub off beer stone. Beer looks fine to me. As already mentioned, you need to bottle it and let it condition.


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## lobedogg (14/8/15)

I'd also be taking things back to absolute basics with your actual brew. Just a basic kit & kilo with minimal hops or a SMaSH brew if you're AG.

Also, I'd be changing the yeast seeing as you seem to have some concerns relating to that. Just use a pack of US05 or similar & see how you go.


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## real_beer (14/8/15)

Do you do everything in the one area when you brew, crack grain, mash, boil, siphon and bottle? If you do you might have something in the air that's getting in your brew. If you use an auto siphon and had it a long time without replacing it you could be drawing air into your beer when you rack it off.

It never hurts every six months or so to use a completely different sanitizer throughout your whole brew house system to kill anything that might be building up a resistance to your usual one, Caustic Soda is a great go to solution for that problem. Use hot water to rinse away bleach, and if you've used PBW to clean your gear make sure the water you use to rinse it away with is as least as hot as when you soaked it in originally, hotter is better though.

A RANT:
I'm still amazed at all the YouTube videos that show people with fantastic equipment and setups costing thousands and thousands of dollars that then make a ******* video showing the first ******* thing they ******* do is cracking their ******* grain in the same ******* area that they're ******* wort is ******* cooled, bottled or kegged in. I must thank Gordon Ramsey for getting that one off my chest even though I probably have a ban coming my way. seriously though crack your grain as far as you can away from your brew house, it's just plain uncommon sense.

:icon_cheers:


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## kaiserben (14/8/15)

Colo said:


> When the infection first popped up it appeared as big brown bubbles and dead yeast on the surface of the brew with a slight "oil slick" looking film and had a sour after taste.


"Brown bubbles and dead yeast" without seeing it this might have just been remnants of krausen and live yeast that hadn't dropped out yet. 

"Slight sour taste that you can't remember if it's normal or not": Slight sour taste sounds a lot like a wheat beer to me. There's usually a bit of tartness there. 

Maybe you've just gone off wheat beer a bit (I have, after brewing loads of it and coming back to brewing after a 10 year break). Try brewing something else?


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## Colo (14/8/15)

TheWiggman said:


> and confirm your mind isn't playing tricks on you.


This...

I think because I had three brews in a row that were heavily infected (I was close to growing mushrooms) I think it increased my paranoia ten fold. So in my mind I was looking for signs of infection when theres a good chance the beer wasnt infected at all. So you have all convinced me that I probably did tip perfectly good brews over the garden, which I may be going to brewers hell for such a sin.

So I will fully bottle this latest back to basics brew and while it may not be as tasty as previous brews I will drink it all the same and hopefully this can signal the start of not having to buy beer again from the local.

Thank you to all for your advice and I suppose...counselling (ha ha). I will be more forgiving of my brews and stop over analysing, will let them ferment out, bottle and judge from that point.

Cheers


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## pcmfisher (14/8/15)

What's wrong with bleach and HDPE?


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## bconnery (14/8/15)

Colo, Another point related to this is to definitely find some people to taste the finished beer you think is infected, especially if you can get a few involved. 
Some people are better than others at picking up certain characteristics and/or flaws, so it is good if you can find more than one.
If you can get along to a homebrew club, not sure where in Brisbane you are but there's a few around, then you have a chance of getting some experienced homebrewers and judges to have a taste and see if there are issues in there. 



Colo said:


> This...
> 
> I think because I had three brews in a row that were heavily infected (I was close to growing mushrooms) I think it increased my paranoia ten fold. So in my mind I was looking for signs of infection when theres a good chance the beer wasnt infected at all. So you have all convinced me that I probably did tip perfectly good brews over the garden, which I may be going to brewers hell for such a sin.
> 
> ...


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## cspencer (14/8/15)

bconnery said:


> definitely find some people to taste the finished beer you think is infected


I agree with bconnery. I had a stage that I had a couple of infections in a row and got hyper-paranoid about everything being infected. Now I get the Wife to taste the beer from the FV if I suspect there is an infection, if she throws up then the beer is fine, If it kills her then I'll dump the beer (She is not a beer drinker, so all the more for me)

Bottom line get someone else to taste


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/8/15)

pcmfisher said:


> What's wrong with bleach and HDPE?


Nothing. Considering bleach comes in HDPE containers

Also agree with real brewer about changing your sanitation regime every few months.

Brewers need to remember that Star-San is not only sanitizer that can be used.

Anyone remember Idophor B)


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## Goose (14/8/15)

yes I remember iodophor, though tendency is to use too much and taint your beer if so, as well a stain your lovely white plastic fermenter and utensils.

Anybody tried hydrogen peroxide ? It decomposes to water and oxygen. Hardly nasty radicals....


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## Tropico (14/8/15)

I must be a slacker. I don't go to anywhere near so much work to sanitise, just a soak with sodium percarbonate, a quick rinse with the hose and that's it.

Maybe any infection is happening post pitching


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/8/15)

Goose said:


> yes I remember iodophor, though tendency is to use too much and taint your beer if so, as well a stain your lovely white plastic fermenter and utensils.
> 
> Anybody tried hydrogen peroxide ? It decomposes to water and oxygen. Hardly nasty radicals....


Peroxide is AWSOME. Prob the best of the lot. 

Rather hard to get. Used to use it a lot when I could get it by the liter. Would make the skin on my hands turn white. 

I would use peroxide over anything if I could get it in a high enough concerntration. The stuff from the chemist is only about 4-7%


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## yankinoz (14/8/15)

Do you have a tap on your fermenter or do you siphon?

Describe the odour. Musty? Rotten eggs? Vomit? Shit?

At what point in the process did you decide das bier vas kaput?


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## Tropico (15/8/15)

HBHB said:


> Looks terribly infected with yeast.


Ah yes, explains everything. All the brews are turning out female, and are much more susceptible to yeast infections.


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## contrarian (16/8/15)

Some good points above but in addition to them, what temperature are you fermenting at? If your fermenter is at ambient temp and wrapped in a blanket it might be getting a bit warm which could produce some undesirable flavours. Controlling fermentation temperature made a massive difference to my beer. 

The other point is what are you tasting the beer from? I've tasted beer that I thought was sour but after giving the hydrometer a good clean it has turned out that was the culprit rather than the beer. I must have got distracted and not rinsed it after a previous sample. 

If you are worried about the water you could try a fresh wort kit without watering down but is say that's fairly unlikely.


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## jimmy_jangles (16/8/15)

plenty of advice already on here, so my two cents is to keep on keeping on! Nothing worse than the feeling you get if a brew goes wrong, i previously got really down about it , so plenty of sympathy coming from this direction hehe Really looking forward to hearing that your back in the successful brewers circle!

CHEERS! :chug:


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## Ditchnbeer (16/8/15)

I think bconnery has given the best advice - get your beer to a homebrew club, a BJCP certified person or an experienced brewer. They can pick infections real quick, fermentation faults, and other issues with creating the beer, give you feedback which will def help you. It may be the way to go especially if you've lost yr way in telling if the beer is good.

And most importantly, if you ever find the cause, post it here.


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## danestead (16/8/15)

kaiserben said:


> "Slight sour taste that you can't remember if it's normal or not": Slight sour taste sounds a lot like a wheat beer to me. There's usually a bit of tartness there.


That was my first thought on the slightly sour taste.

Are you using temp. control on your ferments?

Are you mixing your sanitiser/s at the correct ratio? Stuff like starsan when mixed too strong loses its 'no rinse' ability.


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## Colo (17/8/15)

contrarian said:


> Controlling fermentation temperature made a massive difference to my beer.


Short answer is no I dont use temp control, however at the time of all the issues happening I was keeping an eye out on Gumtree etc for a cheap freezer/fridge but this was put on the back burner for obvious reasons.

I might start looking again


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