# Don't Be Disheartened By The Anti-extract Hype Of All Grain



## Impy (8/9/11)

Found this great article today - http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/page...beer-experiment

It's pretty clear that good clean processes and controlled fermentation are the keys to good beer. Don't let the haters put you off your hobby!


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## Wolfy (8/9/11)

Impy said:


> It's pretty clear that good clean processes and controlled fermentation are the keys to good beer. Don't let the haters put you off your hobby!


Interesting interpretation since the article says this:


> Initially at kegging, *the all-grain beer* was the *best by far*.


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## glaab (8/9/11)

i thought that was odd and was gonna ask why it came second but i presume that "at kegging" means out of the fermenter
so you cant really judge it b4 its carbed i spose. I'm a big fan of extract beer but that is hardly irrefutable proof that extract is better than AG


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## loikar (8/9/11)

Impy said:


> Don't let the haters put you off your hobby!



Yes, Agreed!
All you people out there that are completely against the hobby of home brewing...Ga'rn git yaself a big brown dog up ya sideways, with un-clipped nails, a studded collar and a nest of fire ants up it's arse!

And screw this AG Bullshit, I'm going back to my sweet, sweet, goop brews. It's quicker and it tastes just as good as any AG.

h34r: 


BF


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## DU99 (8/9/11)

> * 2 cans malt extract (LME)
> * 1.3 oz (37 g) Mount Hood hops, 4.9% a.a. (30 min)
> * 1 3068 Wyeast Weihenstephan Weizen yeast
> 
> ...


It don't mention wheat malt in the recipe or it saying don't use wheat malt


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## Liam_snorkel (8/9/11)

DU99 said:


> It don't mention wheat malt in the recipe or it saying don't use wheat malt


here:


> Coopers
> First Tasting
> Score 37.3, first place. All malt with 50-percent wheat malt. It is packaged in 3.3-pound cans.
> OG 1.055, FG 1.014.Country of origin for the malt is Australia.


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## Nick JD (8/9/11)

Very believable ... with a weizen yeast.

Like to see the same thing with a Pilsner. 

This is a bit like saying, "Instant coffee is better than fresh ground and brewed - when the recipe is a caramel, chocochino with soy milk."


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## Malted (8/9/11)

Nick JD said:


> This is a bit like saying, "Instant coffee is better than fresh ground and brewed - when the recipe is a caramel, chocochino with soy milk."



I don't understand Nick. Isn't this the best coffee in the world?


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## Kevman (8/9/11)

Nick JD said:


> Very believable ... with a weizen yeast.
> 
> Like to see the same thing with a Pilsner.
> 
> This is a bit like saying, "Instant coffee is better than fresh ground and brewed - when the recipe is a caramel, chocochino with soy milk."



You know I've bought some absolutely crap fresh ground and brewed coffee that a cup of instant would have been better. I've even had good and bad cups of coffee from the same place depending on which staff member served me, how busy they were, and a myriad of other factors.

I'd say that a good cup of coffee, like a good homebrewed beer comes down to quality of ingredients and good processes. This proves it.


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## Tim (8/9/11)

Plenty of Kit and Extract beers have scored really well at NSW comps in the past. I don't really understand the Goop haters. Everyone has to start somewhere.


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## nathanR (8/9/11)

I don't think that i will ever go to all grain due to the fact that i could not justify to myself the costs,equipment and time it takes to make 

I don't want to start a 357 page discussion on how i can do it for under $10 I just like the fact that you can make very tasty beer at home quick and easy 

I currently have a nice process of hops and dex in the fementer and then boiling water on top leave it to sit for 10-15 mins add the coopers goop and malt throw in some more hops add some water re pitch some yeast and then leave for 2 weeks and bottle then repeat 

Sure it is not comp worthy beer but its tasty better than mega swill and hits the spot after a long days work


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## Wolfy (8/9/11)

nathanR said:


> I don't think that i will ever go to all grain due to the fact that i could not justify to myself the costs,equipment and time it takes to make


The time factor I understand, but I think (when buying ingredients in bulk) that AG would end up being cheaper even if you consider the initial equipment costs.


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## Impy (8/9/11)

Wolfy said:


> Interesting interpretation since the article says this:
> 
> 
> > Initially at kegging, the all-grain beer was the best by far.



Sorry, I don't understand. Why does what the beers tasted like before they were ready to be drunk have anything to do with the end result.

Imagine at a baked cake competitions, the judges taste all the cakes and decide on the best one. Then you come along and say "oh but this one that didn't taste the best at judging tasted the best before it was put in the oven"....... sense.. it makes none.


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## loikar (8/9/11)

Tim said:


> I don't really understand the Goop haters. Everyone has to start somewhere.



Without trying to start a whole barrage of goop brewers getting all defensive...

[Rant]
I have a problem with the whole fictional "right of passage" mindset to AG brewing
Why does goop have to be the starting point?
Why can't a brewer just go straight to AG?
There is no law that you must earn your K&K > K&B > All extract > AG wings.
Over my years of brewing I have seen so many brewers (and I used to be one of them) that would say "one day I'll move to all grain" or "when I get more knowledge i'll move to all grain" or "I'm not ready for AG yet" and honestly, I am kicking myself that I didn't move to AG straight off the bat.
It's no harder than Extract brewing, if anything, you get more time to have a few beers with friends and family while they're being your 'lift bitches'.

There is no right of passage, there is no "step program" that you need to take. 
It's just beer!, nothing more, get over the whole "AG is for advanced brewers" because it's flat-out fu&king not.

And if you're happy with your extract beers, good onya. Good luck with that.
But if you have plans of moving to AG "One Day", then there is no reason why that day can't be your next brew day, even if it's its a 5L batch on the stove.

I know I stir the pot around here in regards to Extract beers being shit. But really, all I want you extract brewers that have an intention of moving to AG "one day" to do is make a small batch of AG beer.
If it turns out shit, and you have done everything right, then I'm happy for you to fling your shit at me.
[/Rant]

I love you all.

BF


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## chunckious (8/9/11)

I went straight to BIAB mini batches. I new so little that I didn't know that you had to put water in the air-lock.
That batch became my first "air-flow"ale. Learn as you go.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (8/9/11)

Have to agree with BF there.

I did K&K/Extract for 10 years (give or take a few months - sometimes I say 11, sometimes 10). If I'd known what I did now, I'd have never brewed kit in the first place.

Other than sanitisation, it taught me nothing. I'd have jumped in AG off the bat.

Having said that, 10 years ago, AG brewers didn't have access to the grains and hops they do now. So if you're starting up, jump straight in. The stuff that's important either way, such as yeast health, what racking does, sterilise everything and how to bottle/keg - isn't that hard to learn at all. 

But the thing is, that with AG brewing, the stuff that makes a really good beer (mash temp, boil times for hopping, decoction (for some), more flexibility with ingredients, that sort of stuff) is only learnable as an AG brewer. And only an AG brewer is likely to bother, because they've made the choice that quality is more important than time.

Sure, a good extract brewer will hop and probably do it well, but no extract brewer would waste an hour properly bittering a batch of beer - after all the reason for extract is mostly a time based decision (from my personal experience). And extract brewers are limited in their base malts, whereas an AG brewer can whack Rye with Floor Malted Boh Pils malt if they so choose.

And that is the fine tuning that makes a good beer great.

Yep, a poor AG beer is worse than an average extract beer. But if the brewer in both instances has great process control, the AG brew will win. Mine do, hands down, and I thought my extract beer was really good. But the comments I'm getting from my tasters now are very much better than they were before.

Finally, whatever you produce, you have to live with the time spent to make it, the money spent on it and the beer you drink. If you do extract and you don't have the urge to make it better/different, stick with it and enjoy it. If you have this nagging feeling that you want to do more, then come to the dark side.

Goomba


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## Impy (8/9/11)

Nick JD said:


> Very believable ... with a weizen yeast.
> 
> Like to see the same thing with a Pilsner.
> 
> This is a bit like saying, "Instant coffee is better than fresh ground and brewed - when the recipe is a caramel, chocochino with soy milk."



My point wasn't to say that it was better, my point was that it's not as bad as AG brewers make it out to be. 

It seems no matter how many extract beers win prizes, no matter how many expert judges can't fault extracts in blind tasting, and no matter how many experiments show that concentrating wort doesn't change the flavour... it seems there is a near fanatical screeching of "extract is dishwater compared to AG brewing".

Yes with AG you have more variables that can be purposefully adjusted.. but the demonstrable net effect of those adjustments have less impact on taste than good quality ingredients, preparation and fermentation.

We all love brewing, why do people have to perpetuate derogatory remarks against extract brewers? Especially since the evidence really doesn't support the extract haters.


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## Nick JD (8/9/11)

Extract brewing isn't bad, extract brewers sometimes are. 

I still make the occasional extract batch - it's great, but tends to be a bit expensive - and with the 60 minute boil still needed, doesn't really save all that much effort.

It makes supurb beer (esp. the LDME, Dex, Spec malts, Hops and Wyeast) - but there are many styles it just can't do. For me that's its downfall.

That and the cost. By the time it's tarted up, it's twice the cost of AG.

Had they done the same experiment with Bohemian Pilsner as the Style, I fear the outcome may have been different. You could make a decent Weizen using poop as the base as long as you used 3068.

But in all fairness, it's K&K that gets the bum rap and rightly so in many cases. That shit's terrible in the wrong hands.


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## Malted (8/9/11)

Nick JD said:


> But in all fairness, it's K&K that gets the bum rap and rightly so in many cases.


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## Impy (8/9/11)

*BF* - RE: AG right of passage.

Anyone can start anywhere they want to. Goop doesn't HAVE to be the starting point, but you have to admit that AG requires a huge amount of knowledge and equipment compared to K&K.

It's just the logical starting point, less knowledge, less money, less time.. it's logical on all three aspects for someone to start with extract and work their way up.

You might not thinks it's complicated now, but try remembering day zero when you started, with all the variables of AG there is infinetly more oportunities for something to go wrong with a newb trying AG. More chances for them to get frustrated and throw the hobby away.




Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> .. but no extract brewer would waste an hour properly bittering a batch of beer.


 
I do.. and all my friends who do extract do as well. 

Have a look for some extract recipes online. You'll be hard pressed to find one that doesn't have "proper" hop bittering. I'm not sure where you got this opinion from, because it's demonstrably wrong.


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## Tim (8/9/11)

I have been a grain brewer for 6 or 7 years and was recently asked by a mate to help him with his new Coopers starter kit. I gave him a few pointers, instructed him to throw away the packet yeast, the instructions and the carb drops and helped him rig up my temp controller to his bar fridge and I donated a yeast starter of WLP002 which was ready to pitch and a kilo of dried malt extract .

The resulting beer was technically pretty good. No faults in the beer at all, and a group of us drank all the bottles within an afternoon.

The comparison of kit and extract beers to cake mix and instant coffee is absolute bullshit. Good cold-side and fermentation technique is much more important in making good beer, than the method that the wort was prepared.


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## Bribie G (8/9/11)

I think the major problem with extract brewing is the difficulty in getting good extract that isn't dark and stale after months on a shelf. I prefer to make my own "extract" from the grain and get fresh stuff.
However if you can get a reliable good cheap source of fresh extract then it is possible to make very acceptable beers.

Oh and did I ever tell you my toucan headbanger stout made it to the Nats a couple of years ago.........


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## petesbrew (8/9/11)

Tim said:


> Plenty of Kit and Extract beers have scored really well at NSW comps in the past. I don't really understand the Goop haters. Everyone has to start somewhere.


It would be interesting to see a brewing method (KnK, Extract, Partial, AG) being shown next to the results in a future competition.
Not that it's anything to really go by.

Brewing's all about having fun really. Get into it cos you want to, not cos you're pressured by a faceless troll on the interwebs (but that faceless troll becomes a future mate at the next AHB pubcrawl, so choose your enemies words wisely!  )


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## Nick JD (8/9/11)

Tim said:


> The comparison of kit and extract beers to cake mix and instant coffee is absolute bullshit.



What about comparing them to bullshit directly, then?


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## Parks (8/9/11)

I know when I decided to go all grain it was so much easier having already *mastered* temp control, sanitation, yeast, bottling/kegging. It takes a fair bit to get your head around the mashing process (if you're like me and really want to understand what's going on), bittering, recipe selection etc.

I know I made a few really good APAs that were extract. You can make great extract beers but as others have said you don't have the fine control over your recipe and really can't make light lagers/pilsners.

Anyone that says you need to do one first is wrong, but it can help.


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## Braumoasta (8/9/11)

Nick JD said:


> I still make the occasional extract batch



That can't be true. BeerFingers once said in another thread, that no all grain brewer has ever gone back to brewing with extracts...


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## Malted (8/9/11)

*I think goop is a product for using to masturbate yourself, or your pet, I am not sure which.*


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## Wolfy (8/9/11)

Impy said:


> Sorry, I don't understand. Why does what the beers tasted like before they were ready to be drunk have anything to do with the end result.
> 
> Imagine at a baked cake competitions, the judges taste all the cakes and decide on the best one. Then you come along and say "oh but this one that didn't taste the best at judging tasted the best before it was put in the oven"....... sense.. it makes none.


Nobody said the beer was not ready to be drunk 'at kegging', in-fact the article makes it clear that that "_a German wheat beer ... take quite a flavor ride over their lifetime, with large swings when they are young_" and "_The best advice is to taste them often and drink when you enjoy them_." So there is no reason why the AG beer could not have been force-carbonated and consumed or judged 'at kegging' since it was "_the best by far_" at that time.

When evaluating the AG brew the second time it was suggested "_The bitterness balance is off; it is too high_" yet as part of the AG brewing process "_The all-grain beer was a full 5-gallon boil. This did extract more hop bitterness_." - more hop bitterness was extracted compared to the other beers so of course it is going to be more bitter. In addition "_In mashing the all-grain beer, it did become stuck and the mash bed was loosened up with whole hops, which transferred into the flavor of the beer._" So not only did the boil extract more bitterness but they also added hops to the mash, which is a very very unusual practice, both of these procedures make a fair direct comparison between the AG and extract brews a total cock-up.

Even so, the AG beer came 2nd when evaluated at a particular time, which means that 3 out of the 4 extracts were worse than the AG beer. However, the comments in the article indicate that if the beers were judged at different times the result would likely have been different.

_My conclusion from reading the article is as follows:_
A Coopers based extract German wheat beer, when judged at a specific interval of 10 days after fermentation, scored the best out of 5 beers, the single AG beer in the experiment came second despite being brewed with more hop bitterness and hops added to the mash. However this also means the AG beer scored better than 3 of the 4 extract beers that were evaluated.

If you ask me - what is '_pretty clear_' is that for this style of beer when it is judged is the most important factor and that the beer can change a great deal as it ages, especially while young. I'm not hating the extract beer or brewers - the Coppers extract scored better than any of the 4 other beers in this test - however it's a pretty wacky jump to get from there to this the claim in the OP that: "_It's pretty clear that good clean processes and controlled fermentation are the keys to good beer. Don't let the haters put you off your hobby!_"


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## loikar (8/9/11)

Impy said:


> Yes with AG you have more variables that can be purposefully adjusted.. but the demonstrable net effect of those adjustments have less impact on taste than good quality ingredients, preparation and fermentation.
> 
> We all love brewing, why do people have to perpetuate derogatory remarks against extract brewers? Especially since the evidence really doesn't support the extract haters.



The evidence in the real world does.
Name one Brewery that sells an extract beers successfully. Just one.
I can name one, but i can tell you, it's beers are shit, and it's fkn far from Successful.

It's the same as coffee. Would you go to a Cafe and expect a hot cup of moccona? No, because that's not how you make great coffee. Sure it's fine at home and at friends houses, but if you REALLY enjoy coffee and were serious about it, you wouldn't waste your time on instant.

All AG brewers know that you can make a decent Extract beer with a little TLC, honestly, that's no secret. But what all extract brewers don't know, is that with the same effort as you put into caressing that Extract beer to make it taste good, with the same effort into an AG beer (and i'm not just talking about sanitation and temperature control here) the AG beer will still be in front.

It's great that Extract beers do well in competitions, but what are the win\loss ratios?
How many Extracts get entered Vs All grain beers?
What's the average ratio of win\loss when comparing the 2?
Are these all extracts? K&K?, mini-mash?

Just saying Extract beers have won medals isn't enough, it's like saying there's a solid gold wedding ring in every sewer.
It's inevitable that sooner or later that a gold miner will find gold.
It's how much dirt he's had to sift through to find it that doesn't get taken into account.

I'm probably the most vocal and brutally honest on this front, and I still say I would have a SuperDry than an extract beer, purely because 9\10 goop brewers beers taste like rubber apples to me.

But the fact is...

Beer is made from grains, not from tins.
Cake is made from flour, eggs, milk and other ingredients, not from cake mix in a box.
Coffee is made from ground beans, not from freeze dried powder.

Anything else is just a substitute for time and effort.
Anyone who is serious about Beer, cake and coffee, won't cut corners trying to put lipstick and a dress on a pig.

What i'm trying to say is, anyone who is serious about wanting to make great beer, should make beer seriously and not fk around with the tins of pre-mix.
they shouldn't be scared of AG as it's not hard, it's just hot water and grains.

If you're happy making your goop brews, well done, and good luck to you.
But if you're serious about your hobby, then maybe it's time you threw away your can opener and got serious.

Cheers,

BF


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## loikar (8/9/11)

Impy said:


> *BF* - RE: AG right of passage.
> 
> Anyone can start anywhere they want to. Goop doesn't HAVE to be the starting point, but you have to admit that AG requires a huge amount of knowledge and equipment compared to K&K.
> 
> ...



Completely disagree.
How much knowledge do you need to hold grain at 65c for an hour?
Sure, maybe a bit more than opening a tin, but c'mon, you can train a bucket of minced tuna to do that.

And Equipment?
Have a look in the "Move to all grain for $30" thread.

It's not a logical starting point, if anything it's the opposite.
If you really want to make great beer, then make great beer.

And no, it's not complicated, making beer is not complicated, it's just porridge.
this is the problem I have.
There's not a hell of a lot that can go wrong.
If you're going to dive in and start crying that your efficiency was at 60% on your first brew than you're being a anal bone smoker.

It's just beer! just make beer.
hold grain at 65c for an hour
drain water, rinse grain, drain water
boil wort
add hops
add to fermenter
add yeast

What's the brain crippling conundrum??

Cheers,

BF


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## sama (8/9/11)

Either way,Haters are just concerned that there product/process may be inferior.if you enjoy what you do and make thats all that matters,fark em all.


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## Malted (8/9/11)

BeerFingers said:


> Anyone who is serious about Beer, cake and coffee, won't cut corners trying to put lipstick and a dress on a pig.


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## loikar (8/9/11)

Braumoasta said:


> That can't be true. BeerFingers once said in another thread, that no all grain brewer has ever gone back to brewing with extracts...



If I had no time to do AG I would probably go back.......


Actually no, I would just buy Oettinger Pils or Lowenbrau and make 9L batches on the stove


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## loikar (8/9/11)

Malted said:


>



So hot right now


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## glaab (8/9/11)

predictably it did'nt take long for this thread to turn into a dribble-fest


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## Wolfy (8/9/11)

glaab said:


> predictably it did'nt take long for this thread to turn into a dribble-fest


True, the first post started as dribble, and it's just continued from there.


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## loikar (8/9/11)

Wolfy said:


> True, the first post started as dribble, and it's just continued from there.



I'm not 100% sure, but I can't help but somehow feel that maybe, indirectly I may have possibly contributed to it....


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## kiwisteveo (8/9/11)

i like my extract brews ,wouldn't mind moving to all grain,so as long as your beer tastes good(and on tap) to you, fark everyone else,
lets get drunk!!


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## Tim (8/9/11)

Actual results 2009 NSW Amateur brewing championship. Category 1 and 2.
Place Brewer Style Score Kit/Mash
(max 150)

Category 1 Low Alcohol 17 entries
(Judges: Tony Kilpatrick BJCP, Adrian Davies, Les Wever. Steward: Ray Primmer)
1 Hurt, Andrew 1.1 Light Australian Lager 115 Kit - Rapid Creek
2 Cranston, Barry 1.4 Southern English Brown Ale 106 Mash
3 Stephens, Larry 1.1 Light Australian Lager 105.5 Kit - Coopers
4 Barlin, Dion 1.5 Mild Ale 102 Mash
5 Symons, Peter 1.6 English Bitter 101.5 Mash
6 Davies, Adrian 1.6 English Bitter 99 Extract
7 Slattery, Kerry 1.1 Light Australian Lager 99 Kit - TCB
8 Hannan, Danny 1.1 Light Australian Lager 87.5 Mash
9 Gaul, Andrew 1.4 Southern English Brown Ale 85.5 Mash
10 Pryde, Adrian 1.1 Light Australian Lager 84 Kit
11 Cranston, Barry 1.3 Scottish Light Ale 80.5 Mash
12 Gillman, Mark 1.2 Leichtes Weizen 37.5 Kit
13 Mewburn, Ross 1.1 Light Australian Lager 0 Kit
14 Button, Josh 1.6 English Bitter 0 -
15 Symons, Peter 1.5 Mild Ale 0 Mash
16 Raymer, Shaun 1.1 Light Australian Lager 0 -
17 Gillman, Mark 1.1 Light Australian Lager 0 Kit

Category 2 Pale Lager 25 entries
(Judges: Barry Cranston BJCP, Eric Young, Lorraine Young. Steward: Peter Shanks)
1 Campbell, Rod 2.3 Pale Continental Lager 115.5 Mash
2 Hurt, Andrew 2.2 Australian Premium Lager 109.5 Kit - Morgans
3 Button, Josh 2.4 Munich Helles 109 Mash
4 Kelly, Michael 2.1 Australian Lager 106.5 Kit - Blackrock
5 Hawkins, Richard 2.3 Pale Continental Lager 106 Mash
6 Simpson, Scott 2.5 Dortmunder 102.5 Mash
7 Hurt, Andrew 2.1 Australian Lager 101.5 Kit - Morgans
8 Anderson, Steve 2.1 Australian Lager 96.5 Kit
9 Kelly, Michael 2.1 Australian Lager 96.5 Kit - Blackrock
10 Mewburn, Ross 2.1 Australian Lager 96 Kit
11 Hannan, Danny 2.2 Australian Premium Lager 96 -
12 Campbell, Rod 2.5 Dortmunder 95.5 Mash
13 Pryde, Adrian 2.1 Australian Lager 95 Kit
14 Furbank, Dav id 2.1 Australian Lager 92 Kit - Coopers
15 Martin, Geoff 2.1 Australian Lager 92 Kit - Morgans
16 Boland, Ronald 2.1 Australian Lager 89.5 Kit - Morgans
17 Mewburn, Ross 2.1 Australian Lager 88 Kit
18 Anderson, Steve 2.1 Australian Lager 83.5 Kit
19 Cranston, Barry 2.4 Munich Helles 83 Mash
20 Cranston, Barry 2.4 Munich Helles 82 Mash
21 Pugh, Peter 2.1 Australian Lager 82 Kit - Brewcraft
22 Raymer, Shaun 2.5 Dortmunder 78.5 Mash
23 Pugh, Peter 2.1 Australian Lager 77 Kit - Coopers
24 Wiggins, Collin 2.5 Dortmunder 69 Mash
25 Peake, Cameron 2.1 Australian Lager 67.5 Mash

Lot's of kits outperforming mash there. Even Barry was shown up by kits and he would happen to be one of the best amateur brewers in the country.


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## enuun (8/9/11)

jus brew what you like and enjoy it =)


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## Malted (8/9/11)




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## Lord Raja Goomba I (8/9/11)

Impy said:


> *BF* - RE: AG right of passage.
> 
> Anyone can start anywhere they want to. Goop doesn't HAVE to be the starting point, but you have to admit that AG requires a huge amount of knowledge and equipment compared to K&K.



Wrong, wrong and wrong.

I can brew on my stovetop with a 19L big w pot and the stuff I have in the kitchen a fullsized AG brew. I'd have the 19L big w pot (because it is size v cost cheaper than anything) to do my extract brewing. The only extra cost is the $5 for curtain material for BIAB.

The ingredients are far cheaper than a _good_ extract brew.

It doesn't require a huge amount of knowledge. Understanding a single infusion mash is simple. Soak grains at certain temp to get sugars out. The hopping is something that a lot of extract brewers have some grasp (or good grasp, it seems) on. Same with yeast.



Impy said:


> It's just the logical starting point, less knowledge, less money, less time.. it's logical on all three aspects for someone to start with extract and work their way up.
> 
> You might not thinks it's complicated now, but try remembering day zero when you started, with all the variables of AG there is infinetly more oportunities for something to go wrong with a newb trying AG. More chances for them to get frustrated and throw the hobby away.



Wrong, wrong, right. You've hit the nail on the head in time - the biggest factor in extract and where it is better than AG is time.

I would also hasten to add that the reason most people give up brewing (and almost all of them do so with a kit), is the fact that the instructions under the lid of the coopers tin says "brew at 28 degrees" and they wonder why they produce watery, fusel-y, cidery "beer".

Take a look at ebay - the "reasons why" someone sells a "once used coopers kit" is almost always the same.

Yeast health is paramount, regardless of method.



Impy said:


> I do.. and all my friends who do extract do as well.
> 
> Have a look for some extract recipes online. You'll be hard pressed to find one that doesn't have "proper" hop bittering. I'm not sure where you got this opinion from, because it's demonstrably wrong.



I got my opinion from 10 years of extract/kit brewing and 2 of AG.

The big advantage that extract has is time. Why would I waste time bittering an extract with a 60m bittering addition? All time savings has gone then, I may as well AG.

I'm not hating - I've been there. I know what both sides have over the other. I AG brew in full knowledge of that. 

I do find that some AG brewers can be sanctimonious (even 3V AG brewers over BIAB brewers occasionally). 

I find some extract brewers that will bang their drum, and yet have no idea what AG brewing is like, raving about time, cost of equipment and knowledge. I can say from personal experience that time is a correct assumption (assuming no 60min bittering of an extract brew), and the latter two are absolute rubbish.

If I'd known what I do now and if I'd had access to the ingredients I can now (at the price one can get them), I'd have never done kit and extract brew. Either way I've got to learn something, why learn extract and then unlearn it to learn AG. The idea that AG is complicated and expensive is just plain wrong. I should know, I've done both.

Goomba


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## warra48 (8/9/11)

I don't hate brewers of any sort. 
We're all brewers and members of this forum, and we hopefully participate in a co-operative fashion to inform, assist, and amuse each other.

Having said that, I don't even hate extract brews. A fellow member of this forum and I regularly exchange our brews for sampling and feedback. One of us does kits or extracts, and one does AG. Each of us enjoys the other's beers, and try to give an honest appraisal. However, the consensus appears to be that AG brews gives you more freedom to design beers to your liking, and to do styles which you cannot do with kits or extract. 

Ultimately, the best of the commercial beers available are all brewed using what we call the AG method. None of them make a wort, then boil it down under a vacuum into goop, to only then rehydrate the goop back into wort. 
There is no question that brewing an AG beer does take time, even though I agree with Beerfingers post #30. I can never do a batch in under 6 hours, including preparation and clean up. Extract brewing is certainly a lot quicker than that. If you are time poor because of work or family reasons etc, then extract brewing may be the most practical solution.

I work on the principle to "love thy neighbour as thyself", and to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". If the neighbour happens to be an extract brewer, then that's fine with me.


----------



## mje1980 (8/9/11)

Can't we all just get a long-neck!?

Being a no chiller who doesnt change hop calcs is almost as bad as being an extract brewer to some haha. Don't worry, there are enough sub groups of brewers for the hate to be shared equally!!. '

Brew what, and how you like i say


----------



## Wolfy (8/9/11)

mje1980 said:


> Brew what, and how you like i say


Totally, just don't make silly random bullshit claims based on a flawed experiment published online which may or may not even support those silly bullshit claims.


----------



## Clutch (8/9/11)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Have to agree with BF there.
> 
> I did K&K/Extract for 10 years (give or take a few months - sometimes I say 11, sometimes 10). If I'd known what I did now, I'd have never brewed kit in the first place.
> 
> ...




I just blamed you dude.
Ha.

You paid your dues (and mine) for 10 years, whereas after our conversation (and the taste test) I jumped in straight away. 
I bottled my first batch of beer on the 1st of May and I'm about to bottle my second ever AG brew this week. If anyone mentions curiosity about HB, I'll still recommend K&K for the first few ones to get them hooked and so they can learn cleaning/sanitising.


----------



## argon (8/9/11)

Clutch said:


> snip... I'll still recommend K&K for the first few ones to get them hooked and so they can learn cleaning/sanitising.



I recommend fresh wort kits. If you get the cold side right with one of those you'll be drinking great beer.


----------



## ~MikE (8/9/11)

Clutch said:


> If anyone mentions curiosity about HB, I'll still recommend K&K for the first few ones to get them hooked and so they can learn cleaning/sanitising.


i wont, i was very much put off HB from the first few batches. sure you can make palatable and even 'good' beer using goop cans but if you're putting in the effort that's required to make kit cans palatable, AG really isn't that much more of a jump in terms of time and effort.


----------



## jzani (8/9/11)

I've been brewing for about a year, and done about 30 brews. Been venturing into AGs, and there are loads more variables for you to be able to control your brew, which is great. However, recently time is at a premium, and beer is becoming scarce, so I thought I would repeat a couple of my favourite extract brews. 50min from start to finishing clean up, compared to the guts of a day for AG, and I know the product will be highly enjoyable.

IMHO there is a time and a place for everything.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (8/9/11)

@impy, just to fill you in.

Clutch came around to obtain some swingtop bottles from me.

Tried some of my AG (stovetop, poverty method, BIAB, AG beer).

Hooked.

To be honest, it isn't my brewing - it's the method. It just produces good beer. It isn't idiot-proof, but so long as you respect it, it'll produce great beer.

Clutch tried my most basic one hop, base malt +200g spec malt beer with a lager dried yeast.

Thanks for sticking up for us, clutch. PM me with how it turned out, and any qu's.

Goomba


----------



## manticle (8/9/11)

What a shit idea for a thread (or at least a very badly worded title). There's a million and one AG brewers out there who are supportive of other methods of brewing including extract. Why be defensive about your brewing - if you enjoy it, keep brewing that way. If you're not happy or wanting to change or curious or whatever, brew another way. This 'versus' kind of crapola is amazingly unhelpful to everyone.

Who gives a tin fiddler's ****?

As for stepping stones - suits some people, not others (as with all things brewing). Care less about what and how others decide to do things and more about how you (generic you) do.

Enun's post makes the most sense of any so far, although I also agree entirely with mje.

I also have some small bits of gravel in my shoe.


----------



## Pennywise (8/9/11)

I brew kits & AG. I spose _everyone_ should think I'm a lesser brewer. This debate is shit, always has been....



Drunk PW..... OUT


----------



## roo_dr (8/9/11)

Is Carlton Draught an extract or an all-grain? :huh:


----------



## insane_rosenberg (8/9/11)

I think a key point gets lost in this discussion. 

Unless you knew someone who does AG (and there aren't that many of us), or your first venture into brewing was to walk into a LHBS that sold grain (and there aren't that many of those), you'd have no idea AG even existed.

I grew up knowing plenty of guys that home brewed. Number who did AG? None.

Once I met a guy who had a keg setup and I thought that was the most ultimate achievement in home brewing!

I brewed for 2.5 years before someone bought me the Complete Guide to Beer and Brewing by Strachan. Literally the first reference I ever saw to AG.

Do you really expect someone in that position to say "F*** what I've been doing for my entire hobby so far", and shell out the big bikkies for a brew rig for their next batch? All on a process they never knew existed? And have never actually seen in operation?

My names Shane and I brewed for 5 years before my first AG. And that AG was the first home AG I ever tasted.


----------



## Wolfy (8/9/11)

Shane R said:


> Unless you knew someone who does AG (and there aren't that many of us), or your first venture into brewing was to walk into a LHBS that sold grain (and there aren't that many of those), you'd have no idea AG even existed.


Unless you have the inter-web at home, work or on your phone and can access websites like AHB, listen to podcasts on TBN and BBR - which lets face it most everyone does now days, and most assuredly everyone who can read or post in this thread also does.


----------



## jyo (8/9/11)

Did I just see an attractive pig? :wacko:


----------



## keifer33 (8/9/11)

jyo said:


> Did I just see an attractive pig? :wacko:



If you have been drinking tonight then yes...if not :icon_vomit:


----------



## Nick JD (8/9/11)

All Grain beer made at home with very little equipment tastes as good or better than beer bought from the bottlo. 

The other methods also do ... if you are a brewing legend.

What I'm trying to say is it's actually easier to make supurb beer, if you make it the same way supurb beer is made.


----------



## bignath (9/9/11)

Shane R said:


> I think a key point gets lost in this discussion.
> 
> Unless you knew someone who does AG (and there aren't that many of us), or your first venture into brewing was to walk into a LHBS that sold grain (and there aren't that many of those), you'd have no idea AG even existed.
> 
> ...



I completely agree with you Shane.

Your post above makes complete sense to me. I also brewed for quite some time without ever knowing there was "another way" to make beer. Self confessed can of goop from the supermarket, maybe some brew enhancer if i wanted to feel pretty fucken fancy, 15g of hops if i really wanted to show off.

I had absolutely no idea all grain even existed, and i have no recollection on the precise moment i found out about it, but it was due to this forum somehow. I made some kick ass beer with my hopped cans, but i feel i make much better beer now with my grains, my mill, adding my own hop additions etc...

I also agree with manticle (as i often do) in that threads like this are starting to become ridiculous, and the more time we spend focussing on anything other than how we make our own beer, the more our own beer will suffer. Personally, i couldn't give a flying **** how other's make their beers, if i have a good recipe that turns out good beers regardless of method used, then i'll be a happy camper. Some of my all grains have ended up on the lawn, and some of my earlier extract goop can beers have been the best and most inspiring i've done to date. 

Overall, i'm much happier drinking my all grain beers, but having said that, if there was suddenly a grain and hops shortage, i'd have no problem creating decent beer again using tins - either from a quality issue or a pride/ego point of view.


----------



## enuun (9/9/11)

manticle said:


> Enun's post makes the most sense of any so far, although I also agree entirely with mje.



+1 I think so too :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## yum beer (9/9/11)

roo_dr said:


> Is Carlton Draught an extract or an all-grain? :huh:




Its pretty shit, so according to beerfingers it must be extract, 

funny...I always assumed it would be AG..


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (9/9/11)

I never saw anyone (and still have never seen anyone) AG brew.

It's the interwebs and AHB that did it for me.

Goomba


----------



## loikar (9/9/11)

yum beer said:


> Its pretty shit, so according to beerfingers it must be extract,
> 
> funny...I always assumed it would be AG..



If what you say is correct, then you should be proud your extract beers taste like Carlton Draught.


----------



## Murcluf (9/9/11)

BeerFingers said:


> The evidence in the real world does.
> Name one Brewery that sells an extract beers successfully. Just one.
> I can name one, but i can tell you, it's beers are shit, and it's fkn far from Successful.



Sorry had to bite at this one as i can name 2 at least, i will assume Lovely Valley is the one you are refering too. Like it or lump it people still buy there beers and they are still in business. I'm not sure how you gauge success bf but the fact they are in business has got to account for something. Regardless of what I may actually think of their beers. The other would be any of the U brew it's etc that are currently doing a roaring trade, the beers I've tried from there so far have been very good a clean extract beers. 

No doubt I'll look forward to you shit canning my beers when I go commercial too regardless of them being Extract or not.

This is just another chest beating peacocking thread where the (Harley riding) A-Ger's tell the (Japanese bike riders) K&Ker's (that they ride rice burning jap crap) that only fermentation assistants, not real brewers (real men ride Harleys)


----------



## Bribie G (9/9/11)

The reason I went AG was to produce authentic UK real ales and, seriously, you can't do that with kits or extract. However up to that point I was quite happy with kits n partials for my other styles, such as Stouts and lagers. Last year I revisited my partials as I needed a quick keg filler and made a perfectly acceptable Cerveza style lager with a tin, some base malt and some Polenta (what else)  






For highly hop driven beers such as APA's, I've tasted some really good extract versions. Mark^Bastard used to brew some crackers in his extract days.


----------



## booargy (9/9/11)

brew beer how you like to brew beer. 
sounds like religious nutters arguing and is just drivel.



Murcluf said:


> This is just another chest beating peacocking thread where the (Harley riding) A-Ger's tell the (Japanese bike riders) K&Ker's (that they ride rice burning jap crap) that only fermentation assistants, not real brewers (real men ride Harleys)



whats a hardley go and blue cattle dog got in common? 
after a short run both go for a ride on the back of a ute.


----------



## loikar (9/9/11)

Murcluf said:


> Sorry had to bite at this one as i can name 2 at least, i will assume Lovely Valley is the one you are refering too. Like it or lump it people still buy there beers and they are still in business. I'm not sure how you gauge success bf but the fact they are in business has got to account for something. Regardless of what I may actually think of their beers.



Lovely Valley do make Extract beers, along with a multitude of other beverages, which actually aren't too bad.
Not 100% sure, but I think they are owned by DeYoungs down here in the south who have a roaring scrap trade, similar to paramount browns.
DeYoungs also own a few recycling yards and a truck\earth moving rental company and some other small business's around the traps.
So yes, Lovely Valley are still in business, but the ins and outs of their revenue would be something we would never know.
Even still, they have been there for years and have never seemed to move up or down within their industry.



Murcluf said:


> The other would be any of the U brew it's etc that are currently doing a roaring trade, the beers I've tried from there so far have been very good a clean extract beers.



U-Brew-it I can't comment on, having never entered their premises or tasted a u-brew-it beer. but I wouldn't put it in the same class as Lovely Valley or any other brewery for that matter. More of a "Drive-Thu" for home brewers.




Murcluf said:


> No doubt I'll look forward to you shit canning my beers when I go commercial too regardless of them being Extract or not.



I'm happy to try your beers, but if I think they taste like rubber apples, Don't start carrying on like I just pissed in your soup when I tell you so.
If they taste good, I'll tell you so also.



Murcluf said:


> This is just another chest beating peacocking thread where the (Harley riding) A-Ger's tell the (Japanese bike riders) K&Ker's (that they ride rice burning jap crap) that only fermentation assistants, not real brewers (real men ride Harleys)



This, I have to disagree with you on.
This thread is about telling Extract brewers not to be disheartened by AG brewers telling them their AG's are better buy some random article posted on the internet.

My points are:
1. If you're happy with your extract brewing, and have no requirement to change it - congratulations on making a beer you're happy with... Enjoy
2. If you're happy with your extract brewing but want to move to All Grain - there is no right of entry, you don't need 3 50L vessels to do it.
3. If you're unhappy with your extracts and want a better beer - skip the steeping and 60min boil using kit's and bits, if you're going to all that effort, just move to AG
4. AG is not hard, it's easy, yes it's more time consuming but the results are a consistent higher quality beer and a much more controllable\personal beer.
5. There is no right of entry into AG, you don't need to go up through the ranks in order to brew it. if you have the ability to hold water at 65c for an hour, hang a bag of wet grain over a bucket and boil water you have the skillset to start making AG beers.

There is no chest beating here.
I don't think I'm a better or worse brewer than anyone else. In fact, to be honest, I have only recently gotten over a bout of infections due to a dodgy tap.
That in itself made me question my process's and ability.
However, getting back on the horse, I have now made a Black beer for my neighbor after he asked me to make it for him, have a SNPA clone going in the keg tomorrow, and they are both tasting great and I'm brewing a Black IPA on Sunday.

I do find however, that a difference of opinion on this forum does tend to start others beating their chests.
I know most brewers are passionate about brewing and love drinking their own beers. I'm one of them.
But If anyone tried my beers and say it tastes like shit because it resembles rubber apples, AND that taste was common among the people who used my process. I wouldn't be sticking my head in the sand and rounding up the troops to combat the guy. I would be looking at my process. and if it is common among the people that use my process, then I would be looking at moving away from said process and not finding ways to work around it.
Unless, of course, I liked the taste of rubber apples, then I wouldn't give a shit what anyone else thinks and I would relax and have a home brew.


Cheers,

BF


----------



## Silo Ted (9/9/11)

kit and extract beermaking is GAY. Spread your cheeks an enjoy the big thrust of bland, beige beer shaft.

Please refrain from calling it 'brewing'. 

Seriously, this thread is all about releasing oppressed self humility over substandard practice. If corner-cutting is what you want to do, that's your perogative, but why bother with the bleeding heart plea for kindred spirits to uplift you failings. You suck and youre not a brewer. Deal with it, or start seeing a shrink .

Tinned soup and dolmio pasta sauce is what's wrong with society today.


----------



## Malted (9/9/11)

Mmmm beer :icon_drool2:


----------



## Silo Ted (9/9/11)

what the **** _is that thing_?

A skin suction unit for extract turkeys to exfoliate with? 

I will never understand the vanity-driven gay community.


----------



## kungfutigerrob (9/9/11)

looks like a rubber apple


----------



## Silo Ted (9/9/11)

> True, the first post started as dribble, and it's just continued from there.



The word you seek is _drivel_. 

[quote post='813971' date='Sep 8 2011, 05:29 PM']I'm not 100% sure, but I can't help but somehow feel that maybe, indirectly I may have possibly contributed to it....[/quote]


No chance. Don't be so hard on yourself :lol:



Impy said:


> you have to admit that AG requires a huge amount of knowledge and equipment compared to K&K.




Bullshit. Nick has done an awesome job in making people think they can brew AG while possessing ****-all knowledge of brewing. This becomes the bread and butter of the commercial aspect of this website *in measured impressions* because it keeps the stupid people returning with dumbarse enquiries when they refuse to educate themselves. 

Surfer boy, you should be on the AHB payroll. Your 'brewing for retards' publications are great for increased traffic.


----------



## glaab (9/9/11)

the word is dribble, check your chin


----------



## Silo Ted (9/9/11)

glaab said:


> the word is dribble, check your chin



Wrong. That's your wife's sweet love juice soaking my long, manly AG beard.  













WHAT? It could have been worse... if I mentioned his mother.


----------



## kdaust (9/9/11)

The noun is drivel. Dictionary is better than chin. So Ted's right. About more than just that 

Oh also. Two legs good, four legs bad, and all that shit.


----------



## Silo Ted (9/9/11)

^^ this guy knows the score. :lol: 

I'll bet Orwell wasn't an extract brewer.


----------



## glaab (9/9/11)

Silo Ted said:


> Wrong. That's your wife's sweet love juice soaking my long, manly AG beard.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



mighty brave of you to say so hiding behind mommys computer


----------



## Silo Ted (9/9/11)

oooooooooo, fightin' words. Nice tough-guy response, big fella. Call me a web hero, therefore imposing upon everyone your strongman attitude. 

Illiterate wanker.


----------



## glaab (9/9/11)

not in adelaide are you?, I'd love to buy you a beer


----------



## mje1980 (9/9/11)

Honestly guys, this is like watching pimply teenagers at school.


----------



## Nick JD (9/9/11)

mje1980 said:


> Honestly guys, this is like watching pimply teenagers at school.



A restraining order prevents me from doing that.


----------



## WarmBeer (9/9/11)




----------



## loikar (9/9/11)

Nick JD said:


> A restraining order prevents me from doing that.



Post of the day right there!


----------



## enuun (9/9/11)

WarmBeer said:


>



Hear Hear!


----------



## ~MikE (9/9/11)

WarmBeer said:


>



It's an internet argument, they were only cocktail franks to begin with


----------



## Feldon (9/9/11)

Silo Ted said:


> kit and extract beermaking is GAY. Spread your cheeks an enjoy the big thrust of bland, beige beer shaft.
> 
> Please refrain from calling it 'brewing'.
> 
> ...



Yeh, tinned soup and Dolmio pasta sauce. But what about Thomas Fawcett, Weyermann, and Barret Burston. And Danstar and Fermentis.

Of course, 'real' AG-ers never touch that commercial White Wings short-cut crap. They grow and malt their own barley, and propagate their own yeast captured from the wild. And none of that shiny S/S and silicone. Its all copper, wood, leather and bone.

If you want to pursue the purist brewer line to its ultimate conclusion, I don't think there is anybody on this forum, me included, who can call themselves a 'real' brewer.

But you've inspired me! I'm off to fell an oak to make me a tun. Just got put an edge on my stone axe first.


----------



## loikar (9/9/11)

Feldon said:


> Yeh, tinned soup and Dolmio pasta sauce. But what about Thomas Fawcett, Weyermann, and Barret Burston. And Danstar and Fermentis.
> 
> Of course, 'real' AG-ers never touch that commercial White Wings short-cut crap. They grow and malt their own barley, and propagate their own yeast captured from the wild. And none of that shiny S/S and silicone. Its all copper, wood, leather and bone.
> 
> ...



I hear what you're saying, but i think there needs to be a line drawn between convenience and practicality.

It's impractical to grow your own grain and cultivate your own hops, just like it's impractical for a butcher to raise his own cattle, slaughter and sell the parts. or a fisherman to build his own boat and nets.
Sure, if I had the land, money and equipment, I would be at least having a crack at my own grain, multiple variety's of hops etc, but it's just not practical.

It may not be practical for someone to spend 6 hours on a brew day, so it's more convenient to pick up a tin of goop and knock it out in an hour. and it's that compromise you take that i'm interested in. 
If you are compromising due to time restraints, fair enough, it's convenient to goop brew and if you can stomach it, well done.
But if you're compromising due to fear of 'lack of knowledge' or confidence, but have the time, then i don't think the convenience is warranted and you are just procrastinating making proper beer due to these inhibitions.
My point is that, you're being ******* ridiculous, if you can make porridge and drain noodles you can brew beer from grain.

The other extreme is: why are we brewing at all?, it's already done for us, mashed, boiled, fermented, packaged and carbed. What's the point in brewing at all when you can pick up a slab from Dan Murphys? it's the ultimate brewing convenience.


Cheers,

BF


----------



## kjparker (9/9/11)




----------



## Tim (9/9/11)

FWIW I don't brew 'real' beer because I use pelleted hops, lager yeast strains, filter and use extraneous carbon dioxide to dispense.

Edit: Oh, but I do have a march pump!


----------



## pimpsqueak (9/9/11)

Since we're down to posting pics now...


----------



## Nibbo (9/9/11)

Classic...


----------



## stux (9/9/11)




----------



## 1975sandman (9/9/11)




----------



## Malted (9/9/11)

WarmBeer said:


>



*I'm not sure about that. Can we sorta combine the two?
(Kitten in a sausage instead of in the airlock?)
*


----------



## bignath (9/9/11)

Tim said:


> FWIW I don't brew 'real' beer because I use pelleted hops, lager yeast strains, filter and use extraneous carbon dioxide to dispense.
> 
> Edit: Oh, but I do have a march pump!



Like this alot Tim!


My Story:
I have two, count 'em - TWO Black milk crates....

Not only am i a real brewer now, but i'm also an exporter!!!

and yes, the milk crates do in fact need to be black to qualify. Just like the green brewing bucket. Black buckets just don't cut it.

Accept no compromises....

the red ones, the blue ones, they are just feeble impersonators of the black milk crate and owning one does not make anybody a "real" brewer.....

i mean c'mon, no one here would dare use a RED milk crate would they???


----------



## rich_lamb (9/9/11)

Silo Ted said:


> kit and extract beermaking is GAY. Spread your cheeks an enjoy the big thrust of bland, beige beer shaft...
> 
> You suck and youre not a brewer. Deal with it...



LMFAO. Thanks Ted, I needed a good laugh. The deft touch of pure logic combined with the sledgehammer insults - hilarious!


----------



## Malted (9/9/11)

Big Nath said:


> they are just feeble impersonators of the black milk crate and owning one does not make anybody a "real" brewer.....



I would imagine that fewer people in possession of milk crates OWN said milk crates than people in possession of beer kegs who own said beer kegs...


----------



## Tim (9/9/11)

Soon we will here that K&K is like using powdered milk - OH the travesty


----------



## Truman42 (9/9/11)

@ SILO TED..SEEMS SOMEONE HAS YOUR PICTURE UP AND YOUR A WANKER ALL OVER THIS BOARD. HERE I WAS THINKING ITS JUST MY THREADS YOU LIKE TO STAB AT...NO YOUR A WANKER EVERYWHERE.


----------



## 1975sandman (9/9/11)

MEOW!!!!!!!!!!

PS...some more pussy!


----------



## kdaust (9/9/11)




----------



## tipsy (9/9/11)

Seems like a good thread to get my post count up.


----------



## Malted (9/9/11)

Truman said:


> @ SILO TED..SEEMS SOMEONE HAS YOUR PICTURE UP AND YOUR A WANKER ALL OVER THIS BOARD. HERE I WAS THINKING ITS JUST MY THREADS YOU LIKE TO STAB AT...NO YOUR A WANKER EVERYWHERE.








Chill Winston, don't bite. Be cool maaaaaan.


----------



## kjparker (9/9/11)

lazy brew said:


> MEOW!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> PS...some more pussy!


Everyone loves a wet pussy.


----------



## Malted (9/9/11)

pimpsqueak said:


> Since we're down to posting pics now...



This is the winning picture! So I guess you're retarded?


----------



## Truman42 (9/9/11)

Malted said:


> Chill Winston, don't bite. Be cool maaaaaan.



LOL Yeh good point..I still go home to my lovely wife everynight and my attempts at beer making..So lifes good I guess..


----------



## loikar (9/9/11)

I once punched a midget


only once though, had to be an upper-cut


----------



## Malted (9/9/11)

Truman said:


> LOL Yeh good point..I still go home to my lovely wife everynight and my attempts at beer making..So lifes good I guess..




If that is her in your avatar then indeed she does look lovely... :lol: At least I think she might be, it is a tiny picture afterall...  
Life is good (with beer)!


----------



## loikar (9/9/11)

I know, I know, Punching a Midget is pretty poor form.


But she pissed me off.


----------



## Truman42 (9/9/11)

Malted said:


> If that is her in your avatar then indeed she does look lovely... :lol: At least I think she might be, it is a tiny picture afterall...
> Life is good (with beer)!



Yes it is...Thank you, yes she does.... and yes life is good with beer. And whats even better is that she likes beer and enjoys helping me brew it. She even came with me to the G&G BIAB demo so she would know what to do..


----------



## Truman42 (9/9/11)

BeerFingers said:


> I know, I know, Punching a Midget is pretty poor form.
> 
> 
> But she pissed me off.



LOL


----------



## pimpsqueak (9/9/11)

Malted said:


> This is the winning picture! So I guess you're retarded?


Yes. Retarded like a fox B)


----------



## WarmBeer (9/9/11)

Truman said:


> Yes it is...Thank you, yes she does.... and yes life is good with beer. And whats even better is that she likes beer and enjoys helping me brew it. She even came with me to the G&G BIAB demo so she would know what to do..


Dude!

Is that a... VB... close to your right hand?

Say it aint so! SAY IT AINT SO!!!!

:lol:


----------



## Truman42 (9/9/11)

WarmBeer said:


> Dude!
> 
> Is that a... VB... close to your right hand?
> 
> ...


Mate..YES it is..But Im happy to say I wasn't drinking it. I haven't touched a VB since I was a 17 year old trying to sneak into pubs. That photo was taken Xmas day last year and as it was warm I think I was drinking Coronas that day.....Is that worse?????


----------



## bignath (9/9/11)

Truman said:


> Mate..YES it is..But Im happy to say I wasn't drinking it. I haven't touched a VB since I was a 17 year old trying to sneak into pubs. That photo was taken Xmas day last year and as it was warm I think I was drinking Coronas that day.....Is that worse?????



Not as bad as the cruiser bottle in the left hand corner.

I mean, i think it's a cruiser bottle. 

My wife spotted it....


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## Truman42 (9/9/11)

Big Nath said:


> Not as bad as the cruiser bottle in the left hand corner.
> 
> I mean, i think it's a cruiser bottle.
> 
> My wife spotted it....




Your wife has a good eye Big Nath that is a cruiser bottle.. A pink guava cruiser from memory. But that was my wifes not mine...LOL


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## iJosh (9/9/11)

Truman said:


>



PUNCHING... ABOVE... WEIGHT... Nice work! :lol:


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## Wolfy (9/9/11)

Truman said:


> ... I think I was drinking Coronas that day.....Is that worse?????


Yes ... much worse.


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## megs80 (9/9/11)

Wow came believe I just spent time reading this thread. Hope any newbe who reads this knows that what ever route they take half Tue community will think their soft and half will think their pussies. Let's spend our energy paying out the bacardi breezers


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## Truman42 (9/9/11)

iJosh said:


> PUNCHING... ABOVE... WEIGHT... Nice work! :lol:



B$hit mate...My wife would disagree with you there..  

What woman could ignore a man who wears a sexy hat like mine???


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## iJosh (9/9/11)

You're right, that is one very nice hat!


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## Malted (9/9/11)

Truman said:


> And whats even better is that she likes beer and enjoys helping me brew it.


You look like a happy couple. 
Likes beer and enjoys helping you brew it! You sir, sound like a fibber or a very lucky bloke. Besides that, there is some sort of thing nibbling at me from having seen this picture. You know, the first thing that pops into my head... his missus is a _Country & Western Singer_. There I have said it, please don't be offended. A bit like a dark haired Gina Jeffreys? Hmm maybe there is someone else I am thinking of, but I am not that familiar with the genre.  
Anyways, its good to see you have cooled Winston.


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## Blackapple (9/9/11)

Big Nath said:


> Like this alot Tim!
> 
> 
> My Story:
> ...



Ive got a red milk crate....


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## Truman42 (9/9/11)

Malted said:


> You look like a happy couple.
> Likes beer and enjoys helping you brew it! You sir, sound like a fibber or a very lucky bloke. Besides that, there is some sort of thing nibbling at me from having seen this picture. You know, the first thing that pops into my head... his missus is a _Country & Western Singer_. There I have said it, please don't be offended. A bit like a dark haired Gina Jeffreys? Hmm maybe there is someone else I am thinking of, but I am not that familiar with the genre.
> Anyways, its good to see you have cooled Winston.



We are a happy couple and I am a very lucky bloke...LOL.
Im certainly not offended because you think she looks like a country and Western singer, in fact she would be wrapped to hear that because we both love country and Western music, and Tim McGraw is her absolute favourite artist..So wait till I tell her what you just said..You will have made her year...LOL. But I can assure you shes no one famous..just my wife...LOL

And yeh Ive cooled off, you know it just annoys me that you come onto a forum to ask for genuine advice and hints from helpful people such as yourself and you have to listen to mindless dribble from a smart arse who thinks you shouldnt ever ask any questions on a forum. Anyway Ive ignored him now so dont have to put up with his childish crap.


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## brettprevans (9/9/11)

Melbourne brewers has a k&k/k&bits comp each year to show that kits/extract can be good in the right hands.

If ur a good brewer and understand.ur ingrediants iants etc.then u can make good beer with anything. Ive oassed off k&bits as ag and ag brewers thoght it was.ag. I spent ages learning about ingrediants, what they did etc jusy as I would with food and.cooking.

Those who cant accept k&k can be good are as closed minded as megaswill zelote drinkers.

My 1c worth as my opinin on this matter is well documented on ahb.

Brew on brewing brothers and sisters


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## Murcluf (9/9/11)

Geez CM2 that was a pretty loose attempt to pull this thread back on topic......


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## Nevalicious (10/9/11)

And a fairly pissed one at that... That spelling and grammar... Hatchy would be spewing!!!


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## Ryan WABC (10/9/11)

Truman said:


> Yes it is...Thank you, yes she does.... and yes life is good with beer. And whats even better is that she likes beer and enjoys helping me brew it. She even came with me to the G&G BIAB demo so she would know what to do..




I knew Maddox brewed beer!






EDIT: For those who don't know: Maddox - Wikipedia


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## Bribie G (10/9/11)

I reckon Haysie and Vicki are a slightly more attractive couple. Let's start a poll B)


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## bradsbrew (10/9/11)

Bribie G said:


> I reckon Haysie and Vicki are a slightly more attractive couple. Let's start a poll B)


What happened to Haysie? Why did he get banned?

Sorry to OP.


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## staggalee (10/9/11)

bradsbrew said:


> What happened to Haysie?



Oh it was awful.......just awful {sniff}
He went out for a piss and a sniper got him.


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## Thunderlips (10/9/11)

roo_dr said:


> Is Carlton Draught an extract or an all-grain? :huh:


According to the add, it is made from beer.


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## yum beer (11/9/11)

Thunderlips said:


> According to the add, it is made from beer.



yeah, extract or AG?


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## HoppingMad (11/9/11)

Made with Barrett Burston Grain currently. Mate did a tour of the brewery. Most CUB beers are using it. Used to be Joe White I think.

Fermented with a lager yeast on high (17 degrees). That gives most of the CUB beers their 'mousey' ester profile.

If you're talking extract the main extract in it is isohop.  Haha.

For tips on exactly what's in it the guru to chat to is Thirsty Boy.

Hopper.


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## Clutch (11/9/11)

I love internet fights.


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## skippy (11/9/11)

Truman said:


> Yes it is...Thank you, yes she does.... and yes life is good with beer. And whats even better is that she likes beer and enjoys helping me brew it. She even came with me to the G&G BIAB demo so she would know what to do..




she is a HOTty!!!!
:icon_drool2:


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## Silo Ted (16/9/11)

Can we see less goatee and more boobs please Truman ? You're all hot & all, but I like to rub one out while viewing the internets.


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## Silo Ted (16/9/11)

Nice hat, by the way. Very butch.


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## Truman42 (2/10/11)

Silo Ted said:


> Can we see less goatee and more boobs please Truman ? You're all hot & all, but I like to rub one out while viewing the internets.



Sure no worries, next pic I'll take my top off for you and shave the goatee.....


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## Truman42 (2/10/11)

Silo Ted said:


> Nice hat, by the way. Very butch.



Thanks mate...When Im not an Internet street fighting god, Im a family man who likes to pull the xmas crackers with my kids and wear the silly hats to get into the spirit of things. I even laugh at the silly jokes they read out from the xmas cracker. As I said ...Lifes good....


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## bradsbrew (2/10/11)

Truman said:


> Thanks mate...When Im not an Internet street fighting god, Im a family man who likes to pull the xmas crackers with my kids and wear the silly hats to get into the spirit of things. I even laugh at the silly jokes they read out from the xmas cracker. As I said ...Lifes good....



Theres got to be a like button here somewhere. Best reply to a fuckwod post I've seen in a while.
Onya truman,.

Cheers


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## Truman42 (2/10/11)

bradsbrew said:


> Theres got to be a like button here somewhere. Best reply to a fuckwod post I've seen in a while.
> Onya truman,.
> 
> Cheers


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## kdaust (2/10/11)

Only took him two weeks to think of it... Lol. Jokes.


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## Truman42 (2/10/11)

kdaust said:


> Only took him two weeks to think of it... Lol. Jokes.



I actually had him on block so didnt see it. But I was missing out on all the fun so unblocked him.


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## Malted (3/10/11)

Truman said:


> Sure no worries, next pic I'll take my top off for you and shave the goatee.....





Truman said:


> Thanks mate...When Im not an Internet street fighting god, Im a family man who likes to pull... things. I even laugh at the... cracker. As I said ...Lifes good....



Awesome responses Truman. You are a big man  Bigger than me because I am just a serial picture pest.


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## Truman42 (3/10/11)

Malted said:


> Awesome responses Truman. You are a big man  Bigger than me because I am just a serial picture pest.


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## Tanga (3/10/11)

Two circles back for God mode?


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## Nevalicious (4/10/11)

Truman said:


> Thanks mate...When Im not an Internet street fighting god, Im a family man who likes to pull the xmas crackers with my kids and wear the silly hats to get into the spirit of things. I even laugh at the silly jokes they read out from the xmas cracker. As I said ...Lifes good....



Nice...

Second what BradsBrew wrote. 

:beerbang:


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## felten (4/10/11)

"I don't see Silo_Ted coming back from this one Gene"


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## Cloth Ears (5/10/11)

Silo Ted said:


> kit and extract beermaking is GAY. Spread your cheeks an enjoy the big thrust of bland, beige beer shaft.
> 
> Please refrain from calling it 'brewing'.
> 
> ...



Interesting that all the posturing is taking place on a thread in the K&K forum. Doesn't the AG brigade have an active forum somewhere? Or do the AG brigade all have such perfect beers that they have to come to a different forum to hang shit on other people?

I used to AG brew some 20+ years ago and it was so frustrating trying to source stuff that I simply gave up and started drinking wine.

Now, a K&K makes it easy - 2 kit cans, 3kg of wet malt, 1kg of dry, 2kg of dextrose, 1kg dark brown sugar, 1kg of barley, some liquorice, hops and chillies - and you get the perfect 15.4% beer (after about 6-12 months in the bottle).

:kooi:


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## Clutch (7/10/11)

Cloth Ears said:


> Interesting that all the posturing is taking place on a thread in the K&K forum. Doesn't the AG brigade have an active forum somewhere? Or do the AG brigade all have such perfect beers that they have to come to a different forum to hang shit on other people?
> 
> I used to AG brew some 20+ years ago and it was so frustrating trying to source stuff that I simply gave up and started drinking wine.
> 
> ...




Well I'm convinced.


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## [email protected] (7/10/11)

Cloth Ears said:


> Interesting that all the posturing is taking place on a thread in the K&K forum. Doesn't the AG brigade have an active forum somewhere? Or do the AG brigade all have such perfect beers that they have to come to a different forum to hang shit on other people?
> 
> I used to AG brew some 20+ years ago and it was so frustrating trying to source stuff that I simply gave up and started drinking wine.
> 
> ...



I have no interest in hanging shit on how peeps choose to brew. But these days with the rise of quality HBS, like you will find in the site sponsors, home brewers have a vast realm of choice when it comes grain, hops and yeast. 
For me it would actually make no sense economically to use your above recipe, especially seeing as i get everything via mail.


cheers


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## Blackapple (7/10/11)

Cloth Ears said:


> Interesting that all the posturing is taking place on a thread in the K&K forum. Doesn't the AG brigade have an active forum somewhere? Or do the AG brigade all have such perfect beers that they have to come to a different forum to hang shit on other people?
> 
> I used to AG brew some 20+ years ago and it was so frustrating trying to source stuff that I simply gave up and started drinking wine.
> 
> ...


That sounds delicious! mmmmmmmm

Is the the 15.4% its score out of 100?


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## peaky (7/10/11)

:lol: :lol:


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## Yob (7/10/11)

wasnt gunna enter this one but for me 1k post here we go. Why the _uck not  

Brewing kits for me has been all about the much disputed learning curve... weather or not it's needed is not an opinion I wish to impose on others.

For me I have not seen the need to "step up" until I've got a few things down pat. 

My Example being rinsing yeast and re-pitching.... 

Would I go through all the motions of a full AG brew only to cock it up with an under pitch? Much better IMO to learn those lessons from a simple kit and not have wasted the effort, water, gas, electricity and time on an AG brew but learn from the lessons it gives you and take that experience into an AG brew. (currently experiencing this very pitching issue)

Dont get me wrong here Im all for, and leaning toward AG, and have most of the equipment for a 3v put together, but I am also willing to wait until my methods and results are down pat, especially with yeast management being something I'm not currently happy with.

Ive totally enjoyed the journey thus far and expect to enjoy it into the future for many years. My only wish is that I continue to make better beer... and do not become some jackass with a snooty opinion of himself because of the fact I do AG and look down on others for not doing so. 

I feel the journey is different for everybody as are our tastes. 

Your Best AG V's my best kit? It's all subjective to your palate and what you like... while I admit my tastes are changing there have been many an AG brew ive drank and enjoyed there have been others Ive not. 

Same as Kits.

cant we all just (drink and) get along :lol: 

cant believe I wasted my 1k post on this drivel...  

Yob


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## Deebo (8/10/11)

I have done 7 BIAB so far and my best kit beers with malt hops etc still tops my best BIAB so far. (I had been doing kits for a number of years though)

All my BIAB beers have been very good but have yet to get the perfect beer that I would not change anything about.

I still have a lot to learn with AG which will probably improve my beers over time. 
At the moment things I need to master:
Figure out how different hop varieties contribute to the bitterness/flavour/aroma at different times in the boil taking into account nochill (did use hops in my kits but never for bitterness).
Figure out how much the mash temperatures effect the beers body / malt profile etc (also need to somehow find out if my mash thermometer is accurate)
Figure out all the different tastes that the different grains provide in varying quantities.
Figure out how much oxygenation effects the beer (at the moment I just splash when filling fermenter from no chill cube)

But the main thing is that I am enjoying brewing (I was starting to get a bit bored with the kits even though I was making good beer). I can customise the flavours a lot more when going AG.
Saying that AG is a substantially bigger time investment but as long as you enjoy it, It's all good!


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (8/10/11)

I BIAB and have been for 2 years after 10 years of K&K.

I still use the ghetto-est of ghetto equipment.

I've made some good K&K beers.

My AG beers are the best, the learning curve isn't as steep as most think, neither the expense of starting to do so.

I still don't re-use yeast, still use dry yeast and there are a number of advanced things I still don't do.

Beer is still fantastic.

Goomba


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