# Low OG ( again I know)



## Beamer (27/2/16)

Hey guys,

Im very new to AG BIAB (6 Brews) and my last two brews have been between 6-10 points below OG. It is quite frustrating. I have been following recipes from the AHB website, using brewmate, and buying cracked grain.

The ABV doesn't bother me, what does is that I cant nail the recipe.


So from the research I have done, do I buy I grainmill crack it myself this seems to be the re occurring problem. (plus I would love to spend more time brewing so any excuse will do)

My last grain bill was:


4 kg Jw traditional ale
1.1 munich1
.300 wheat
.300 carafoam

og was 1056

I got 1046


any help would be amazing

Cheers,
Beamer


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## stuartf (27/2/16)

Have you asked your homebrew shop to mill it a bit finer? I had a similar problem and I've solved it by either getting finer crush on my grain (although others that biab use a coarser crush and get and improved efficiency) and also mashing for longer.


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## Beamer (27/2/16)

Gday Stuart, I brewed the last two days haven't had the chance to ask the brew shop, I do get all my brew supplies mailed to me. What I have read is that brewers that crack their own are getting better off by 10%. I believe this will bring my og up. 

I brewed a pilsner (90 min boil) and a ale (60 min bolil) and both were shy on the og


Sorry both mashed for 60 minutes


Cheers,
Beamer


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## Reman (27/2/16)

What does your efficiency work out to be?

I mean one option is just to order an extra half kilo of grain.


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## Beamer (27/2/16)

im not real sure mate, brewmate is saying 70%

How do I work out my efficiency?


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## Camo6 (27/2/16)

A bit hard to tell without more info. What was your pre-boil SG and volume compared to your post-boil SG and volume.
Could be the crush, the grain, volume of water, boil rate etc.
If you can determine whether your loss/losses are from the mash or the boil you'll go a long way to fixing your issue and dialling in your system at the same time.


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## Beamer (28/2/16)

Camo6 said:


> A bit hard to tell without more info. What was your pre-boil SG and volume compared to your post-boil SG and volume.
> Could be the crush, the grain, volume of water, boil rate etc.
> If you can determine whether your loss/losses are from the mash or the boil you'll go a long way to fixing your issue and dialling in your system at the same time.


Gday Camo,

I'm still very new to the all grain set up still learning every time.

Starting water 32L

Mash at 66

Mash out 78

Pre boil 28.8L

og 1036

post boil 24.9L

og 1046

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers


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## Camo6 (28/2/16)

Are you using any brewing software?

Looking at that I'd say the issue is before your boil so need to look at things like crush, type of grain, stirring the mash etc. Try making one change at a time so you can fault find.
My first start would be another brand of ale malt. I got terrible efficiency with JW. 
Also be sure to drain the bag well.


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## Brewhart (28/2/16)

Mate I brew with a 3v/biab/ and recirc 1 or 2v setups depending on the day. Efficiency varies a lot between systems. If your just starting out I'd suggest punching 64% into brew mate and adjusting your recipe to suit desired abv etc. 
Then you can work on your system and increasing efficiency.


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## Pokey (28/2/16)

Try a 90 minute mash


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## Wall (28/2/16)

Water pH is worth a look too.
Got some good advice from this forum a while back and using water additions and acidulated malt has greatly improved my efficiency.

Was originally aiming to reduce tannins but efficiency improvements a very welcome side effect.


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## mstrelan (29/2/16)

I'm new to AG/BIAB too, but hopefully this might help. You can calculate your actual efficiency at http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewhouse-efficiency/ ... With your figures above it comes in at about 64%. When you're formulating your recipes use 64% or 65% instead of 70% which will essentially mean ordering a little more grain. As you improve your processes you should hopefully improve your efficiency, allowing you to punch in a higher number and save a few bucks. Most likely this involves spending a few bucks too, eg on your own mill.


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## Jack of all biers (29/2/16)

6 brews in and only 6-10 points under. You're doing fine. Keep asking questions and you will improve in no time. The above suggestions are all good especially from Pokey and Wall. Give those a try first (as well as giving the mash a stir every 15 minutes) and see if that improves your efficiency. If it does somewhat, then research some more and you will find techniques that suite your method thereby improving your beers.


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## Beamer (29/2/16)

GDay Lads,

i brewed Dr Smurtos Golden Ale today, I did improve my effiency today I did do a 90 min mash with a stir every 20 mins, I did give a better stir through mash out time,and squeezed the bag till dry. I have recalculated all my volumes in the urn aswell. Made better records of my boil off. 
Also learnt I was whirlpooling too early which was contributed to my trub loss.

After all that I was still 6 points under the predicted OG. But this was at Pre boil and post boil.

So it may be a rookie mistake but I believe it could be the grain, so I'm going to buy a grainmill and from now on use a different base grain.

Thanks all for your help and anymore advice would be great.

Cheers,
Beamer


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## chaositic (29/2/16)

> So it may be a rookie mistake but I believe it could be the grain, so I'm going to buy a grainmill and from now on use a different base grain.


Sounds like a bit of overkill tbh. Just reduce your efficiency in your brewing software to match your system. Its not a point of failure on your part not getting the 70% efficiency some other bloke got when compiling the recipe. Everyone's system is different and will be getting different results in that respect. Save a few litres of water in a jug to do a ghetto sparge and rinse the grain in the bag. Theres a ton of sugars left in that grain bed regardless of how hard you squeeze the bag.


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## Danscraftbeer (29/2/16)

I don't BIAB. I got an appropriate esky, a hardy 75lt (with threaded tap outlet) for $95 on special. I batch sparge. You need to consider a bigger pre boil volume. 
$0.02
BIAB is a recipe for mess and trouble and swaring in frustration. In my little experience. I cant see why its so popular.
Mash in esky and set up a (bazooka? screen tube filter thingamy) fit in the outlet hole as a filter. Learn the Vorlauf method. It feels much better when you have to tweak your software efficiency UP! not down. I set my Beersmith at 81% to match what I got on the last brew. :beerbang:


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## Rocker1986 (29/2/16)

Danscraftbeer said:


> BIAB is a recipe for mess and trouble and swaring in frustration. In my little experience. I cant see why its so popular.


I can't say I agree with that. I've been doing it for 3 and a half years now and have had barely any issues with it at all. I'm sure it's popular because there are many others in my situation. I constantly hit about 75-76% efficiency on my system, sometimes a little higher. I'm happy with that, it's consistent, and that's what makes recipe design easy, not what that number actually is.

Obviously, you don't want it ridiculously low, though.


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## Danscraftbeer (29/2/16)

Good points. I just skipped the BIAB all together and went straight to the esky mash tun method. I've only BIAB for under 12lt brews and made a hole friggen lot of sticky mess for little yield.
Its just not for me.
Yet I can pull off a 40lt brew with batch sparge esky mash no mess, no probs. I admit maybe I have a bit more space and a 20 pale bucket (for wort drainage) and a 50lt tub as a drip tray etc.
A Keggle for boiling up to 55lt pre boil.


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## wereprawn (29/2/16)

Get your local water report and see what the PH is and adjust accordingly . I biab with an urn and my brew house efficiency is set at 80 %. I own a 30 ltr urn, so a sparge/mashout step is required to meet volumes . You can achieve good efficiency with biab , even full volume, if that's what you do. Anyone who claims otherwise is talking out of their arse.


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## Beamer (1/3/16)

Thanks again to all for the advice. I have done alot of reading over the last couple of days i.e the importance of water and mash ph, something i should have done before I started BIAB.

I found a water report from my local area and ph levels where between 8.2 and 9.6.

I will be purchasing some ph testing strips some 5.2 stabilizer before next brew day.

Hopefully this will provide some more insight for myself again.

Cheers,
Beamer


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## Danscraftbeer (1/3/16)

Where are you? Its always a help to readers to see your basic location. Water profiles etc.`


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## Beamer (1/3/16)

Batemans Bay South Coast NSW


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## Danscraftbeer (1/3/16)

I feel you've just got to increase boil capacities.

(oh the addiction) :lol:


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## Beamer (1/3/16)

Can't say i wasnt warned about the addiction, didnt think it would hit this hard though!!!


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## Danscraftbeer (1/3/16)

I'm not sure about it hitting hard other than the odd disappointments here and there. Disappointment hits hard to the heart tho. But then comes the bounce back!
That is the next beer you make. Its that simple. Failures happen to the best of them.


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## dblunn (2/3/16)

Hi Beamer, give the 5.2 stabliser a miss as there seams to be a lot of negative comments about its use. What is your water report down your way? Can you tell us your Ca, Mg, Cl, Na, SO4 and alkalinity? 
Dave


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## Beamer (2/3/16)

Gday Dave, 

Just got off the phone from local council, and this is what the gave me hope it helps.

No sodium tests done.

Chlorine : 2mg/L
Alkalinity : 55.5 mg/L
Hardness : 53 
Ph : 7.5 
Sulphate : 2.3 mg / L
Aluminium : 0.021 mg/L
Magnesuim : 3.83 mg / L

I'm not sure if this is what was needed but hope it helps.


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## dblunn (2/3/16)

Hi Beamer, was the top one chlorine or was it chloride, also did they say the hardness was total hardness?
Assuming the chlorine is actually chloride and estimating the calcium level from the hardness (assuming it was total hardness) then my estimate from playing with a spreadsheet is you have:

Ca 15 
Mg 3.8
Na ~5 ish
HCO3 65
SO4 2.3

so you want to get the Ca level up a bit (~50) using CaCl or Ca SO4. Just my opinion though. Best dowload a copy of Bru'in water spreadsheet from https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/ and play with that to get Ca up a bit and your mash pH around 5.4 


Regards, Dave


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## Beamer (2/3/16)

Hi Dave,
Chlorine and yes that was total hardness, I tried to get as much info as possible.

Cheers


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## dblunn (2/3/16)

Bugger, chloride level would be useful as well as calcium and sodium.
Dave


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## Beamer (2/3/16)

For a beginner, should I try bringing my ph levels down to start with and see if that helps?


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## Beamer (2/3/16)

dblunn said:


> Hi Beamer, was the top one chlorine or was it chloride, also did they say the hardness was total hardness?
> Assuming the chlorine is actually chloride and estimating the calcium level from the hardness (assuming it was total hardness) then my estimate from playing with a spreadsheet is you have:
> 
> Ca 15
> ...


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## Beamer (2/3/16)

dblunn said:


> Hi Beamer, was the top one chlorine or was it chloride, also did they say the hardness was total hardness?
> Assuming the chlorine is actually chloride and estimating the calcium level from the hardness (assuming it was total hardness) then my estimate from playing with a spreadsheet is you have:
> 
> Ca 15
> ...


thanks for this, sorry I didn't see it before my final post


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## dblunn (2/3/16)

Probably not, you can be honing a lot other process variables first. Water chemistry is fine tuning, if your water is good like it is on most of the east coast then it will work ok. The biggest thing I have noticed with fixing the Ca level (other than the pH numbers in the mash) is my beer seams to clear much quicker, I'm on northern Shoalhaven water with a native Ca of 22 ppm.
Dave


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## Rocker1986 (2/3/16)

Bear in mind it's the mash pH you want around that 5.4 number, not the starting water pH. Adding grains to the water drops it, with darker grains lowering it more than lighter grains, and it can be dropped further by the use of mineral salts and/or acid malt/lactic acid. The latter is an easy option to drop it without adding shitloads of mineral salts if it is a bit too high.

Admittedly, mash pH isn't something I've done any work on so far, maybe it's already where it needs to be, maybe even if it is a little out, it's not enough to cause any issues with efficiency or the final beer in the glass, so I haven't bothered. I have some acid malt to use in my pilsners though, since I use very low mineral content water in them. Will be interesting to see whether it makes a noticeable difference to the finished beer.


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## Droopy Brew (2/3/16)

dblunn said:


> Hi Beamer, give the 5.2 stabliser a miss as there seams to be a lot of negative comments about its use. What is your water report down your way? Can you tell us your Ca, Mg, Cl, Na, SO4 and alkalinity?
> Dave


Have you used it or just going off some stuff you have read?
I have used it for about 6 months and have noticed no issues with taste and have seen slight improvements with efficiency. There are also a number of guys in the local HB club with similar findings. I haven't personally heard of anyone having an issue with it here.
It is not something I would rule out using.
That said, you could try throwing 100g of acidulated malt into your next grain bill. It is a bit cheaper option and will let you know if pH is a contributing factor. With your stated pH in the water supply, I predict it would be.


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## dblunn (2/3/16)

Droopy Brew said:


> Have you used it or just going off some stuff you have read?
> I have used it for about 6 months and have noticed no issues with taste and have seen slight improvements with efficiency. There are also a number of guys in the local HB club with similar findings. I haven't personally heard of anyone having an issue with it here.
> It is not something I would rule out using.
> That said, you could try throwing 100g of acidulated malt into your next grain bill. It is a bit cheaper option and will let you know if pH is a contributing factor. With your stated pH in the water supply, I predict it would be.


Not used it but information gleaned from respected sources such as Palmer, Zainasheff and others. The biggest issue seems to be the amount of Na added. Might not be an issue if the water is low in minerals anyway as in your case.


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## Droopy Brew (2/3/16)

Fair enough. Sodium is on the lower side in the local water.May be the reason.
I do think the alkaline water is contributing to your issues beamer.


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## Jack of all biers (2/3/16)

Don't play with your water pH until you know for sure your mash pH is an issue. That requires reliable and calibrated equipment for testing, otherwise you are guessing and can cause yourself some major frustrations. You are new to this game and I will bet that your perceived issues with lower OG lays elsewhere.  As has been suggested, make one change at a time (ie grain crush finer, or rinse your grains in a mini sparge) and see if there is a positive effect on higher OG without a negative effect on taste. This is an important point, because you could strive to achieve the best mash efficiency and end up with a beer that doesn't taste as good, because you have over done something (ie sparging out astringency from the grains).

My 2 cents: 6 or 7 brews in should be aware of water chemistry's effects, but not playing with it until you have all your other processes down pat.


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## Beamer (2/3/16)

Jack of all biers said:


> Don't play with your water pH until you know for sure your mash pH is an issue. That requires reliable and calibrated equipment for testing, otherwise you are guessing and can cause yourself some major frustrations. You are new to this game and I will bet that your perceived issues with lower OG lays elsewhere. As has been suggested, make one change at a time (ie grain crush finer, or rinse your grains in a mini sparge) and see if there is a positive effect on higher OG without a negative effect on taste. This is an important point, because you could strive to achieve the best mash efficiency and end up with a beer that doesn't taste as good, because you have over done something (ie sparging out astringency from the grains).
> 
> My 2 cents: 6 or 7 brews in should be aware of water chemistry's effects, but not play with it until you have all your other processes down pat.


Thanks Jack,
Spoke with the homebrew shop today and he suggested the mini sparge aswell, will be trying that. Still need to get my boil off perfected aswell.

I am enjoying all this learning and really cant get enough of it, just need the experience to go with it. As you said the taste is the major aspect, I would like to see what the difference is when hitting the numbers.

Thanks again to you all


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## Jack of all biers (3/3/16)

Hitting the numbers is not really what you should be aiming for. It is a thing we all strive for, but really uping the grain bill by 100-200 gms will get you there with a lower efficiency and still keep a good taste. In saying that, good luck in improving your efficiency  , it is something we all keep at to be honest. Keeping up with the Joneses may be part of it, but knowing you did a recipe that someone else wrote and that you nailed is a good feeling also. :beer: Just remember that if the beer tastes superior, 100-200 gms of grain is about 75c to$1.50 worth so keep it in perspective.


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## Beamer (26/4/16)

Hey all,

Just an update and thankyou,

Thanks to all on their advice with this thread.

I ended up trying almost everything over the last two months. I have done smaller mash volumes with mash outs and sparges. Full volumes with no sparge but a mash out, I have tried salt additions and checked the water profile.

And the last few brews I changed a few things, I boosted my batch size 1L on brewmate, bought myself a grain mill set it to .6mm, I now mash and boil for 90 and consistently hit 68-70%, no mash out .It has improved from 55%- 58% Which I am very happy with.

I also read a post that better efficiency doesn't make better beer. Made me feel good on the inside 

all there is to do now is taste the difference.

Thankyou all once again

Cheers,
Beamer


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## MHB (26/4/16)

Just glanced through the thread rather than read every post in detail, so if I've missed a couple of things - sorry in advance.
In your first brew I get a mash efficiency of about 75%, there really isn't much reason why that shouldn't be up around 90%.
There really are four things that will knock your mash efficiency that badly, in roughly likelihood order
1/ Your mash temperature isn't what you think it is. Get a decent laboratory thermometer you can trust
2/ Some other measurement is very wrong. Hydrometer, grain scales, liquor volumes. Check and calibrate everything.
3/ Your grind is really bad. Looks like you have addressed that.
4/ Water chemistry is seriously askew. From your water report it could stand a bit of work, but it isn't far enough out of bounds to cause the problems you are having.

Based on experience I will bet you that your mash temperature is out.
Mark


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## Beamer (26/4/16)

MHB said:


> Just glanced through the thread rather than read every post in detail, so if I've missed a couple of things - sorry in advance.
> In your first brew I get a mash efficiency of about 75%, there really isn't much reason why that shouldn't be up around 90%.
> There really are four things that will knock your mash efficiency that badly, in roughly likelihood order
> 1/ Your mash temperature isn't what you think it is. Get a decent laboratory thermometer you can trust
> ...


Thanks Mark, 

Im brewing tomorrow do ill double check water levels, I get my grain pre packed, I do have a digital kitchen thermometer, but will pick up a new one tomorrow. Thanks for the heads up.


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## Rocker1986 (27/4/16)

I brew BIAB as well and I found a coarser grain crush improved my efficiency. Last batch I hit 89.7% mash efficiency which is about the highest I've ever had I think. Should have been 79.7% brewhouse but I missed my batch volume by a litre which dropped it to 76.5%. But yeah, might be worth experimenting with and see what happens.

Originally I used to get around 75% brewhouse efficiency, which then dropped for a period of time, partly due to my hydrometer reading 2 points low, which I wasn't aware of but there were other things affecting it too. Once I started using the coarser crush on the grains and factoring in the hydrometer error it improved back to that number. And now it seems to be going higher; I haven't changed any of my process.


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## Beamer (10/5/16)

Just incase anyone ia following or comes across the thread.

I remeasured all my levels and bought a digital thermometer, I was a few litres over my pre boil amount, evaporation rate was out and my thermometer was 2 degress under. So lesson learnt and thanks to all for their advice. 

Cheers,
Beamer


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