# Electric Vs Gas



## joshuahardie (13/4/10)

Hi All, 

I know most have their opinions on which is better for their brewery, Gas or Electric heating, but I am curious if anyone has any solid research about which one is cheaper, especially cost vs time.

My feeling is that electricity is cheaper and quieter , but would take longer to get a batch to the boil. 
Whilst gas is faster, noisier, but produces more mj's or BTU's of energy / heat.

I have the chance to upgrade my BIAB setup, and I can't decide between a 4 ring burner, or a 2000-2400w over the side immersion heater.

I can handle slightly longer boil times if electric can handle boiling 30 litres in a reasonable time, simply for the convenience of power points, and never having to worry about gas bottles etc etc.

Opinions aside, anyone got a verdict?

Cheers Josh


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## MarkBastard (13/4/10)

From memory only electricity works out significantly cheaper.


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## Cortez The Killer (13/4/10)

I made some comments here http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...c=25043&hl=

Having used both gas and a heat stick I would go electric again in a snap

I have my HLT on a timer so the water is ready to go when I wake up or get home from work

Shaves a fair bit off my brew day

Then I'll put the heat stick into the kettle as the the tun drains and its probably 10 mins after sparging finishes that I have a rolling boil 

Can also make mash tun adjustment if I miss mash temps

Volume wise I have used a 2400W heat stick for 27L final batch size without problem

I have 2 * 2400W but have not used both in a long while now that I have a timer

Pics of my stand incorporating a heat stick are here http://hyperfox.info/webalbum04/

Cheers

Edit: Cost wise electricity is still cheaper than gas at say about 20c per kW hour and say 2.4kW at 3 hours ~ $1.50 per batch - I found I was getting 5-6 batches out of a $25 9kg gas bottle


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## raven19 (13/4/10)

The over the side immersion heaters are gold. So useful in the brewery.

Gas may have more power, but you may struggle to get all the heat into the wort - compared to electric which is immersed in the wort.

In saying that both have down and up sides.

Personally Electric for me.

Nothing worst than running out of gas when part way thru a boil and the shops are shut.

2c.


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## QldKev (13/4/10)

I think you have hit most points already.

Electricity
Cheaper to run <$1 per batch
Quite - very nice to have especially if brewing in a flat or out of normal hours.
Don't need to worry about ventalation as much (although steam is another story)

Using my BIAB (where I add sparge water later) I raise 29L of water from 24 to 69c. That would take a 2400w 38 minutes. And then about 30mins to get Mash out say 65c up to the boil.
You could always go 2 elements to get a decent heating time.

Elements can be sourced cheap, ie kettle.

LPG
I pay $24 per LPG fill, and get about 8 batches, about $3 per batch
3-ring is quite, my mongolian and also Nasa are loud.
Need to vent the LPG; I brew outside so not an issue.
LPG you can run out half way through a batch; I have 3 bottles, so not such an issue.
Depending on system can be a lot faster than electricity to get to the temp. (My mod'd 3 ring = 15mins, 12mins for my Mongolian to get to mash in temp) Which is fater than even 2 x 2400w elements could achieve.
LPG is generally dearer to setup, burner + reg + bottle
LPG heats up the work area more (could be good or bad depending on time of year)

Attached is my Water heating spreadsheet to calc heating times for electricity
View attachment water_heating.xls



QldKev


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## absinthe (13/4/10)

i use natural gas and for the amount of power i can get into my pot (7.5kW measured) it works out the same or cheaper (less than $2 a run). but LPG is much more than elec. but i love the control with gas plus i use it on my "water distiller"


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## joshuahardie (13/4/10)

Some really great info there guys.
At this stage based on my earlier thoughts, and your info I am leaning towards electric.

I did not consider that I could incorporate a timer and the fridgemate to dial in my mash temps whilst i sleep or attend to other things.
Also being able to insulate my pot when raising to boil temps, is another benefit.

I am guessing that the electric elements are either totally on or totally off, and to regulate a boil you have to be constantly switching them on and off? You can't just turn them down to get a rolling boil can you?


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## Wolfy (13/4/10)

My 2400W urn takes about 30-60mins to get 32L to the boil - no solid research as such, just non scientific observation, hope it helps none the less.


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## joshuahardie (13/4/10)

absinthe said:


> i use natural gas and for the amount of power i can get into my pot (7.5kW measured) it works out the same or cheaper (less than $2 a run). but LPG is much more than elec. but i love the control with gas plus i use it on my "water distiller"



Great info, 
In my example, Natural Gas is not an option, but great food for thought


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## Cortez The Killer (13/4/10)

joshuahardie said:


> I am guessing that the electric elements are either totally on or totally off, and to regulate a boil you have to be constantly switching them on and off? You can't just turn them down to get a rolling boil can you?


That's right - there is some device that can switch the element on or off quickly to reduce out put and you can wire a box up which reduces heat out put - but I'm not versed in these

But the boil can simply be regulated by adding or removing insulation on the vessel

I find that I get 3.5L per hour boil off for the various volumes I make ie 16L - 27L batches

The advantage of electric is that you can determine this boil off and adjust your volumes accordingly and know with reasonable certainty that you will achieve the same boil off next time

Cheers


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## Pollux (13/4/10)

This is quite an interesting topic for me right now as I'm looking at upgrading to double batches within a few weeks...

Question is, would any element capable of raising enough wort to have a finished volume of 50L also be able to run on a 10A circuit?? Keeping in mind that out apartment has ONE power circuit, and this includes the garage. So there would be two fridges upstairs potentially kicking in, plus whatever else the wife turns on (LCD tv etc) while I'm downstairs...


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## Cortez The Killer (13/4/10)

I think you'd struggle to get a decent boil and things are gonna take forever

You could use a heat stick to supplement a burner and reduce the amount of gas you use

But without a second stick and a second circuit I reckon you'd be disappointed with an all electric system

Cheers

Edit: I've had the 2400w heat stick, 3 fridges, a march pump and what ever else the Mrs is running inside on the same 10amp circuit and have not tripped it


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## QldKev (13/4/10)

Pollux said:


> This is quite an interesting topic for me right now as I'm looking at upgrading to double batches within a few weeks...
> 
> Question is, would any element capable of raising enough wort to have a finished volume of 50L also be able to run on a 10A circuit?? Keeping in mind that out apartment has ONE power circuit, and this includes the garage. So there would be two fridges upstairs potentially kicking in, plus whatever else the wife turns on (LCD tv etc) while I'm downstairs...




Sounds like my house
1 x 32amp for stove
1 x ??amp for Hotwater 
2 x 10amp for lights
1 x 16amp for power!!! wtf...

and I get >$700 power bills!  


QldKev


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## smithy010 (13/4/10)

My first post on this forum i believe, but i'll leave my 2 cents.

I use 2x1kW low intensity elements in my 50l boil vessel, and it is only just sufficient to keep 30l of wort on a rolling boil.
Ideally i would add another 1kW, and it would be awesome. At 2kW i get about 1degree/minute temperature increase on 40l of HLT water.

I have a PID temp controller ($60 from china) that i have wired up to a solid state relay. The PID controller can control heat input by pulsing the power on and off, so it's really good as my herms heat source, HLT, and boil vessel.

Advantages: Cheap to run, and automatic temperature control.

Disadvantages: A bit on the slow side.

Never used them, but i would guess that if a standard heat stick or over the side element is used, you may risk caramelising the wort on the element and creating burnt flavours.. Maybe..


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## Pollux (13/4/10)

mmmm, after reading Kev's post I rechecked the circuit breakers.

I have a 10A for lights, and a 16A for power.....

Back to the italian spiral it seems...


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## mxd (13/4/10)

my 2200 watt couldn't get 35 ltrs boiling so I run the 2200 and a 2400 and get around .8 -> 1 Deg a minute increase.


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## redbeard (13/4/10)

I have an electric HLT (2400watt) which I fill with hot water (45'? - gas) from the tap and use a wok burner for the boiler. My lpg gas refills are about $17 (inner syd).


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## jakub76 (13/4/10)

Check this build out if you haven't already
http://www.wortomatic.com/articles/Baltobr...-Electric-Stand
I'm also considering an electric HERMS and was very impressed with the spa heater element he's using in his kettle. Smaller elements up to about 4000W go for around $40 on ebay. Seems heaps cheaper to aquire and run than gas.
I am also concerned about scortching though, anyone experienced it with an element?
What about a jacketed ceramic element? Bobbin elements.
http://www.thermalproducts.com.au/hotwater...erheader.html#3


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## Back Yard Brewer (13/4/10)

My previous system was all electric. My new one utilises both.

3.6kw 98 ltr HLT but I normally only need to warm up around 90
2.4kw herms that heats around 15ltrs it has around 9mtrs of coiled copper in an old corny keg
23jet mongolian burner for those larger 85ltr boils, plenty of grunt. (I intend to trial the 10jet at some stage)

I initially thought all electric was the way to go, convenient and cheaper. In my situation its not whats the cheapest or most convenient but what I think I have more control over. Yep gas is a little dearer but I find it easier to clean my kettle and also I have a better boil. Although elements worked well in my previous rig, they were a pain to clean. Over time crud will build up and it really should be cleaned off. I brewed for 18mths with an electric kettle and would have brewed near on 800ltrs.

BYB


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## pdilley (14/4/10)

This Rudd Government has a scary agenda to raise electricity prices to 3 times what they are. First rates hike going in before end of year somewhere under 30% hike in current rates. You'll still get better costs for a while but if the price of gas does not increase as well then in the end they'll be the same.

Then again your overall electricity bill might be costing as much as top end mobile phone plan each year so your brewing money might be reduced overall 

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## Cortez The Killer (14/4/10)

I haven't found there to be any scorching with the heat sticks

I did open the coil up a little on my stick so there was about a 2mm gap between each loop - I had read some where that this would help will heat distribution 

Also with cleaning I occasionally put the element in near boiling water with some sodium percabonate and it comes out very clean

Cheers


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## stuart13 (14/4/10)

I ran out of gas part way through a brew. Grabbed an induction heater from the kitchen link and have used it ever since. Only good for single batches, and takes some time to get 30 litres to the boil, but does the job... No worse than the burner I was using.


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## gap (14/4/10)

stuart13 said:


> I ran out of gas part way through a brew. Grabbed an induction heater from the kitchen link and have used it ever since. Only good for single batches, and takes some time to get 30 litres to the boil, but does the job... No worse than the burner I was using.



This would only work with a pot with a flat bottom??

no good with a keg ??

Regards

Graeme


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## Margwar (14/4/10)

I'm still a bit of a noob, but I have a 3 ring burner for my Keggle and a 2200w element for my HLT.
The HLT takes a good half hour to get my water up to temp, which I would like to be a little quicker. I got a second keg which I will transform into a U beaut HLT soon...
I start my 3 ring burner as I am sparging, that way the wort is heating. So when I get to my boil volume I only have to wait 10min or so to get a boil going. I also only run 2 rings of the 3 as there is too much flame shooting from the sides if I have all 3 on. For me the 10min is nothing to wait to get a rolling boil going and the ease of the gas, when it has reached boil, to be able to turn it down an maintain that perfect rolling boil is something I dont think you can achieve with Electricity, unless you have an exspensive thermostat...


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## stuart13 (14/4/10)

I think that is correct - no good for keg...


gap said:


> This would only work with a pot with a flat bottom??
> 
> no good with a keg ??
> 
> ...


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## Polar Beer (14/4/10)

Brewer Pete said:


> This Rudd Government has a scary agenda to raise electricity prices to 3 times what they are. First rates hike going in before end of year somewhere under 30% hike in current rates. You'll still get better costs for a while but if the price of gas does not increase as well then in the end they'll be the same.
> 
> Then again your overall electricity bill might be costing as much as top end mobile phone plan each year so your brewing money might be reduced overall
> 
> ...



BP. Apart from your post (and now mine) being way :icon_offtopic: . Where has anyone (you can even include the Greens) released a plan to increase electricity prices by 300%?
Unless I've been reading a lot of misinformation, I'm not sure you can substantiate this one. 
Can we keep the partisan political comments to right thread. ie Chinese Bulk Buy.


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## Phoney (14/4/10)

Prices *may* triple over the next ten years, according to Origin energy, due to a combination of different reasons.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/e...x-1225853385647

Mind you, my salary will at least double over the next ten years too.


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## oldmacdonald (14/4/10)

> i use natural gas and for the amount of power i can get into my pot (7.5kW measured) it works out the same or cheaper (less than $2 a run). but LPG is much more than elec. but i love the control with gas plus i use it on my "water distiller"



Can you explain how you use natural gas a bit further? When I build my shed I'll have mains natural gas in there for the hot water for the bathroom and laundry, so it might be worth investigating using natural gas for brewing.


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## Polar Beer (14/4/10)

phoneyhuh said:


> Prices *may* triple over the next ten years, according to Origin energy, due to a combination of different reasons.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/e...x-1225853385647
> 
> Mind you, my salary will at least double over the next ten years too.



And as he states, the government's renewable engery targets and the opposistion's opposistion to everything, are only a factor in that rise. It's not a plan by the Rudd government.


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## cdbrown (14/4/10)

oldmacdonald said:


> Can you explain how you use natural gas a bit further? When I build my shed I'll have mains natural gas in there for the hot water for the bathroom and laundry, so it might be worth investigating using natural gas for brewing.



I think you'll need a regulator suited to natural gas not LPG as most are.

I'm liking the idea of having a timer to get the HLT heating so instead of using two burners I could get a 2.4kw element for the HLT on a timer and the 3-ring with MP adjustable reg for the keggle. Have 3 gas bottles so shouldn't run out during a boil. If I could get a NG regulator I would plug it in to the outet that's in the kitchen and just have a gas hose long enough to run outside to the brew rig (3m maybe).


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## oldmacdonald (15/4/10)

cdbrown said:


> I think you'll need a regulator suited to natural gas not LPG as most are.
> 
> I'm liking the idea of having a timer to get the HLT heating so instead of using two burners I could get a 2.4kw element for the HLT on a timer and the 3-ring with MP adjustable reg for the keggle. Have 3 gas bottles so shouldn't run out during a boil. If I could get a NG regulator I would plug it in to the outet that's in the kitchen and just have a gas hose long enough to run outside to the brew rig (3m maybe).



Duh, of course! Why didn't I think of that? I'll remember that when I get the gas plumbing done in the shed - just put in an outlet somewhere near the sink or laundry.

Do you guys run gas burners inside or just in the garage with the door open? Reason I ask is ventilation an issue?


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## absinthe (16/4/10)

you dont need a regulator, (there is one on the meter out the front) i converted a 4 ring lpg burner to run on NG, i removed all the jet nipples and moved them up 2 spots (the 2nd smallest ring now has the biggest jet and the smallest ring has the second largest jet) and i made new jets with 1/4 copper pipe drilled out for the largest ring and standard on the second largest ring























it runs a little dirty but much cheaper.. and you should run large gas ring outside or with good ventilation 

my REALY big burner looks like this: (goto about 4:10 to see it running)


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## alowen474 (16/4/10)

Brewer Pete said:


> This Rudd Government has a scary agenda to raise electricity prices to 3 times what they are. First rates hike going in before end of year somewhere under 30% hike in current rates. You'll still get better costs for a while but if the price of gas does not increase as well then in the end they'll be the same.
> 
> Then again your overall electricity bill might be costing as much as top end mobile phone plan each year so your brewing money might be reduced overall
> 
> ...


I'm charging all my batteries now!!


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## FarsideOfCrazy (16/4/10)

Brewer Pete said:


> This Rudd Government has a scary agenda to raise electricity prices to 3 times what they are. First rates hike going in before end of year somewhere under 30% hike in current rates. You'll still get better costs for a while but if the price of gas does not increase as well then in the end they'll be the same.
> 
> Then again your overall electricity bill might be costing as much as top end mobile phone plan each year so your brewing money might be reduced overall
> 
> ...




Hi Pete,

I think you will find that energy costs in general will be going up, this means gas as well.

Someone has to pay for the $42billion the gov just spent and that my friend is you, me, everyone who reads this forum and the rest of the population. And if you think because your a pensioner you won't have to pay think again. You still have to buy goods and services which will all go up accordingly :angry: 

Farside.


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## QldKev (16/4/10)

Glad our Gov is selling off our LPG to overseas at 6c L


QldKev


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## thesunsettree (16/4/10)

QldKev said:


> Glad our Gov is selling off our LPG to overseas at 6c L
> 
> 
> QldKev




gotta love anna, i mean how good is she? i love anna, she is the greatest thing that has ever happened to qld and the feminine movement, what an ambassador she is to womens rights. sorry for the :icon_offtopic: 

cheers
matt


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## bradsbrew (16/4/10)

QldKev said:


> Glad our Gov is selling off our LPG to overseas at 6c L
> 
> 
> QldKev



Just had a torrets moment after reading that. :angry:


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## fraser_john (16/4/10)

Brewer Pete said:


> This Rudd Government has a scary agenda to raise electricity prices to 3 times what they are. First rates hike going in before end of year somewhere under 30% hike in current rates. You'll still get better costs for a while but if the price of gas does not increase as well then in the end they'll be the same.
> 
> Then again your overall electricity bill might be costing as much as top end mobile phone plan each year so your brewing money might be reduced overall
> 
> ...



Fark, no shit, got my electric bill this week, 20% increase since end of December!

Used less power than last bill and bill was $50 more!

Wish I could get a 20% pay increase.


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## goomboogo (17/4/10)

fraser_john said:


> Fark, no shit, got my electric bill this week, 20% increase since end of December!
> 
> Used less power than last bill and bill was $50 more!
> 
> Wish I could get a 20% pay increase.



I just got a pay rise. When compared to forecast inflation my real wage will go down by about 5% over the next three years. I too, wish for a 20% pay increase.


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## joshuahardie (22/4/10)

Ok update.
Yesterday I bought a 2400w immersion element and gave it a test run on a pot of water.

From my basic calculations, it appears raise temp at a rate of about 0.75 degrees per minute.

So I should be able to raise from mash temp to boiling in about 45 mins. Or so I would think.
Unfortunately the temp of the water never actually reached boiling

It rose to 85 degrees very quickly, but to 95 degrees took another 25 mins, and I could not get a reading any higher than 97 degrees. Which is no better than what I was getting on a stovetop.

I left it at that temp for an hour to get a boil off rate, and still the temp never got above 97degrees

However, while the entire volume of liquid was not at 100 degrees there was alot of localised boiling happening, enough to evaporate about 10% over the hour, so prehaps the localised boiling is enough to get a sufficent rolling boil, and evaporation rate. Certainly there was transfer of liquid from one side of the pot to another etc.

Still I am very surprised I could not get the entire body of water rapidly boiling.


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## Cortez The Killer (22/4/10)

How much water?

What sort of container? Insulated?

Cheers


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## joshuahardie (22/4/10)

Opps forgot to add that

30l of water in a 40l uninsulated pot, with no lid. sitting on a slab on concrete.
Day was about 26 degrees with little wind.


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## Cortez The Killer (22/4/10)

Insulation will get a rolling boil happening - I use one of those blue camping mats

Cheers


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## Barley Belly (22/4/10)

joshuahardie said:


> Day was about 26 degrees with little wing.


 :super:  :super:


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## Wolfy (22/4/10)

Yep I'm with Cortez - insulate it well, both around and under, and I think you'll get a rolling boil.
I do with my 2400W (Urn) and about 31L, I have not got a camping-mat yet so I just use a few towels wrapped around and held on with occy-strap.


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