# White Head On Stout... Is It Possible?



## floydmeddler (23/1/09)

Hello brewers!

Have just tried my partial mashed Irish Stout and it's tasting pretty fantastic. I used, dark LME, Crystal, flaked Barley and Roasted Barley, Goldings and Fuggles. Only thing is... the head is very dark. 

Is there a way to get that lovely white head? I have since switched to all grain brewing if that will help me any?

Cheers

Floyd


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## boingk (23/1/09)

AFAIK, a white head comes into the equation by using just enough darker malts to turn the colour while leaving the actual head as light as possible. As a mile-marker, Guinness is 130EBC or thereabouts. So anything between 90 and 130EBC will give you quite a dark body with a reasonably light head. One way the breweries do this is by using a large percentage of lighter malts in their mash with, as before, only enough darker ones to please the pallate and darken the body whilst leaving the head light.

What quantities of ingredients did you use? And what volume?

Cheers - boingk

EDIT: Download one of the free brewing programs (I use Brew Wizard) and see what combinations of ingredients are required to bring a brew up to the desired EBC.


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## geoffd (23/1/09)

Using the dark extract as the base malt would have dramatiaclly incraesed the colour of the head.
A stout is the same as a pale ale except for the small percentage of roasted barley.
Using roasted barley only to get to the desired SRM/ EBC will give a whiter (beige) head than using chocolate malts or combinations. So basically its better to use less quantity but darker speciality grains for a paler head. You could try the same recipe again, using pale extract & it should be substantially lighter. All grain brewing will make it paler again as pale extract is darker than pale ale all grain mash. & pale dry extract is darker than pale liquid extract


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## Swinging Beef (23/1/09)

I made a stout that didn't carbonate in the bottles.
To compensate for this, I used to violently dump a small measure of pilsner in the glass first to get a rocky head and a fizzy foundation, then pour the flat stout through that.

Made for an amazingly guinness like experience.

Otherwise.. .no.. I dont know how to get a white head on a black beer.


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## boingk (23/1/09)

I know you can definitely do it on at least a dark ale...I've got a simple Coopers Bitter made up with BE2 and some light malted grain. The thing is quite dark, deep red/brown when you look through it, and despite its cruddy ingredients holds a nice, smooth, white head.

Be interesting to see how dark you can get a beer while still maintaining a nice light (if not white) head.

- boingk


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## Ronin (23/1/09)

boingk said:


> I know you can definitely do it on at least a dark ale...I've got a simple Coopers Bitter made up with BE2 and some light malted grain. The thing is quite dark, deep red/brown when you look through it, and despite its cruddy ingredients holds a nice, smooth, white head.
> 
> Be interesting to see how dark you can get a beer while still maintaining a nice light (if not white) head.
> 
> - boingk



I've done a reasonably dark porter (about 50EBC by beersmith), that was very black. About 5% Chocolate malt and 1.5% roast malt. I would imagine a nice roasty stout would need a lot more specialty malt than that though which would brown up the head. Guinness is accepted to be about 10% roast malt, right?

Might do some experiments along those lines this coming winter,

James


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## muckanic (23/1/09)

Roast malt provides the white head; roast barley the muddy one. Despite the colour, I don't like the flavour one iota.


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## boingk (23/1/09)

Good stuff muckanic! I don't particularly like the roast barley either. I tend to stick to black patent, myself. Not that I use a hell of a lot...just under 150g in six months to be exact 

- boingk

EDIT: That sounds the goods for a porter, ronin, and yes I think Forgein Extra Stouts can be up to 10% roast/black malt. I did one last year that came out well...used a Coopers Real Ale kit as the base and did a 900g partial with 500/300/100 of crystal/choc/black patent malts. Came out well, but in hindsight I shouldn't have used dark liquid malt to make up the bulk of fermentable, it should've been light liquid. Oh well, still a nice drop. Perhaps try that partial on a light kit or over the lightest liquid extract you can find?

Cheers (again) - boingk


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## Cortez The Killer (23/1/09)

I was under the impression that black patent gave you a white head

I'll have to research this though

Cheers


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## peas_and_corn (23/1/09)

Hmm, I mostly use black patent and choc malt in my stouts and they are *reasonably* white in the head. I'm another who despises roast barley


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## muckanic (23/1/09)

I'm being misinterpreted here; it's the black patent that I can't stand!


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## floydmeddler (24/1/09)

I can't tell you the exact recipe because my PC crashed and I lost it! However, I know that I used 500g of Roasted Barley and have to say I wouldn't be comfortable with settling for less than this in future brews. I'd rather go for taste over aesthetics on this one. I will however, use pale malt for the next one and report back here.

Cheers all... time for a stout!

Floyd


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## Thirsty Boy (24/1/09)

I'm not 100% sure I am right... but I think that muckanic has it exactly the wrong way around.

Roast Barley for the white head - Roasted malt (black patent etc) for the tan/brown one.

I was speaking to one of the brewers at work, we were discussing the beer in our hands, I mentioned that I liked it better now than I used to and he said that might be because we changed the recipe from roasted malt to roasted barley because we wanted a whiter head - and everyone liked the effect it had on the flavour too.

Plus - I have seen some talk that if you want the really white head, you need to go with a nitro pour... something about the size of the bubbbles.

Your classic dry stout is 80% pale - 20% flaked Barley - 10% roast Barley... and they have that lovely white head (perhaps enhanced by the nitro)

TB


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## muckanic (25/1/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I'm not 100% sure I am right... but I think that muckanic has it exactly the wrong way around.



I've brewed with both and settled that particular issue a long time ago. Haven't had a lot to do with chocolate, but I assume it could be black patent-like in its effects as well. Industrial brewers could very well be using filtration to influence colour.


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## dr K (25/1/09)

sorry...malt influence!!! Crap.
Guinness has a white head for the same reson the sky is blue..its called light scattering.

K


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## Steve (25/1/09)

dr K said:


> sorry...malt influence!!! Crap.
> Guinness has a white head for the same reson the sky is blue..its called light scattering.
> 
> K



Kurtz - can you elaborate. I remember asking the same question at the last Wig n Pen brew day that we went to. Ive forgotten what the answer was (i'd had a few).
Cheers
Steve


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## warrenlw63 (25/1/09)

The several stouts I've brewed I've never encountered a white head (and who wants one really anyway). Mine are usually a nice buff/tan colour but never lighter and rarely darker.

No complaints here.  

Edit: Pikcha added.

Warren -


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## BoilerBoy (25/1/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> The several stouts I've brewed I've never encountered a white head (and who wants one really anyway). Mine are usually a nice buff/tan colour but never lighter and rarely darker.
> 
> No complaints here.
> 
> ...



Agreed, there's something about a rich tan head on a stout that just increases the anticipation prior to tasting.

Damn, now I want one  

Cheers,
BB


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## Thirsty Boy (27/1/09)

dr K said:


> sorry...malt influence!!! Crap.
> Guinness has a white head for the same reson the sky is blue..its called light scattering.
> 
> K



Yes.. light scattering off something that absorbs few of the wavelengths of visible light, in exactly the same manner as anything in the world which happens to appear white ... so your point was??

Or does the foam on Guinness interact with light differently to foam on another type of beer?

The whiteness that the brewer at work was looking for would have had nothing to do with the beer being filtered, processed or not.... any of that stuff would have been happening to both beers.

Mind you I am not insisting that muckanick is wrong, I might have remembered incorrectly. I am doing a course at BB malting in May.. I will try to remember to ask.


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## warrenlw63 (27/1/09)

BoilerBoy said:


> Agreed, there's something about a rich tan head on a stout that just increases the anticipation prior to tasting.
> 
> Damn, now I want one
> 
> ...



Yep, I agree BB... Bit like taking a woof of a good coffee before drinking. Who wants shitey old Guinness anyway. B) 

Warren -


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## Tony (27/1/09)

The only stout i have ever had on tap. It was great too.

80% ale malt
10% Roast Barley
10% flaked barley

1.044, 40 IBU

Y.U.M.

IT had a fairly pale head if you let it sit for a while and most of the liquid ran from the head, leaving whiter bubbles ect.

But as far as a white head.......... mine are always a nice rich tan and i think thats how they should be.

cheers


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## warrenlw63 (27/1/09)

If anybody manages to get a white head on their stout a very funny name would be Michael Jackson Stout for obvious reasons. :lol: 

Warren -


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## drsmurto (27/1/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> The several stouts I've brewed I've never encountered a white head (and who wants one really anyway). Mine are usually a nice buff/tan colour but never lighter and rarely darker.
> 
> No complaints here.
> 
> ...



:icon_drool2: 

11:30am. Temp is due to hit 42 today.

All i want is a pHaT of stout. :chug: 

Tan head on all of my stouts - guinness is to stout as Fosters is to lager. h34r:


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## muckanic (27/1/09)

DrSmurto said:


> guinness is to stout as Fosters is to lager. h34r:



It has become so progressively anaemic over the last 30 years that I assume the roast barley quotient has been eased off, probably in favour of chocolate malt.

Also, as I've observed before, I strongly suspect the rolled oats in most stout recipes are there for reasons of marketing hype as much as actual effect.


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