# Strongbow Sweet Cider



## max10au (30/6/09)

Hi All
I have just starting to do Home Brews again. I can make them so my pallet loves them. I am on a Pension so this is great for me. Now I would like to make a Cider brew as close to the Strongbow Sweet taste. I have only made a cider from a Canned mix and it tasted flat and shithouse. I have read just about all this subject on this site and cant decide what to do. So here is what I have a 30lt fermentor (Plastic) so I would want to make the Cider at about 25lt per brew. I dont want to spend a lot of money making it. I have heard that you have to put Apple Juice in it as well? All I want is a Cider that is Sparkling (With Bubbles) and drinkable. How would I do this, Brewing, what is the right size Fermenting Bottle to use, how long till I can drink it etc: All I want is a simple Sparkling Sweet Cider to drink. Any advice would be greatly appreciated, thanks in advance. Also what size Bottles should I use to Bottle the Cider in.


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## brettprevans (30/6/09)

max. the strongbow thread i mentioned is here

im sure someone who likes strongbow can help you out.


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## manticle (30/6/09)

A simple sweet cider might eventuate from the following:

1 x cider kit
5L water
15 L preservative free apple juice
300 - 500g lactose (this adds sweetness so adjust according to taste)
12 g White wine or lager yeast
yeast nutrient
250g dextrose (optional and depending on how strong you want it)

Ferment at 12 degrees for 2 weeks or until FG is below 1010 and stable over 3 days.
(optional but recommended) Place entire fermenter in fridge for a minimum of 1 week (more if you have the patience)
Bulk prime with 160g dextrose
Bottle and leave for 4 weeks.

That is in no way my ultimate cider recipe (which I'm still developing and which will be made entirely from apples and yeast) but I reckon it will be in the ballpark of what you're chasing. I'm not suggesting it will be a strongbow clone but it will be simple, sweet, sparkling cider and cost you under $30 depending on your choice of kit and juice.

As for size of bottles - if you bulk prime it won't matter so it is more a case of how much you want to consume per session. If you only have one or two glasses an evening it may be best to use smaller bottles. If you drink it down like a thirsty man, then try longnecks. Anything with a crown seal or alternatively PET bottles.


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## brettprevans (30/6/09)

Manticle. this is sort of what i had in mind for max. Although im not sure why your advocating use of water. why not just use juice?

I recon champaigne yeast would give it that strongbow taste, whitewiney, bubbly, alc bready taste. Is that what it tastes like? I cant remember.

Max. Manticle hit it on the head re bottles. Id just go 750ml PET. That way you could drink half the bottle, screw the cap back on and drink it the next day without too much loss of carbonation. or just drink the whole thing in one sitting.

Given that you said your a penioner, (and I sincerly dont mean to be rude or cause offense) I assume you dont really want to stuff around much with capping glass bottles etc. I assume pet bottles you be easier for you. although i suppose if you had arthritis screwing on caps might be difficult.


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## manticle (30/6/09)

Re water: Just to keep it cheaper because that was mentioned in the original post. Preservative free juice can be pricey.

Also strongbow is watery to my tastes.

As I said - it's not my ultimate cider recipe which would be made entirely from 4 or 5 different types of apples and possibly lactose as I don't keg so it's the only way I can avoid super dry.

If you can splash out the extra Max then just use all juice. You can even dispense with the kit and make it from all juice + yeast. The flavour might differ a little from what you're after - many apple cider kits have artificial sweetenr which will bring it more in line with SB.


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## brettprevans (30/6/09)

ahh true about cost. good point.

agreed re kit. make sure if you use a kit that its well and truely within its used by date. some shops will happily sell you stale kits which will taste like crap.


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## jonocarroll (30/6/09)

manticle said:


> As I said - it's not my ultimate cider recipe which would be made entirely from 4 or 5 different types of apples and possibly lactose as I don't keg so it's the only way I can avoid super dry.


Not the only way it can be kept sweet without kegs... Look up keeving. I've currently got 15L of keeved juice that's looking to finish around 1.015 which will bottle condition very slowly.

Sorry for the OT.

Then again, I recall being quite happy with my kit cider: tin of cider goop, 3L of apple juice, topped up with water, kit yeast fermented in a shed. That was a while ago though.


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## manticle (30/6/09)

Alternatively you can just make the kit as per instructions but replace whatever portion of water you like with equivalent apple juice and drop out some of the kilo of sugar d(epending on how much apple juice is used and how strong you like the brew).

The key to good cider is patience (both fermenting and bottle conditioning).


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## manticle (30/6/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> Not the only way it can be kept sweet without kegs... Look up keeving. I've currently got 15L of keeved juice that's looking to finish around 1.015 which will bottle condition very slowly.



You are a gem for posting that. I'm looking at making some Breton style ciders in the relatively near future so that information is gold.

Off topic maybe but thanks nonetheless.


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## Verbyla (30/6/09)

Max i wouldn't use a kit or an addition of water at all if i were you. The kits don't give you as much control over the final taste in my opinion unless you've had a bit of experience with them and water(believe it or not!!!), waters down the cider, taking away a lot of taste and sweetness.

I originally was after a cider that tasted just like strongbow and experimented with wine yeast. You just have to remember to add lactose as wine yeast generally ferments out dry.

These days i usually stick with Nottingham yeast as i've found it works best for me. I've also experienced good results or have heard good things about the following yeasts:Safale S-04, Saflager S-23, Safale US-05, Wyeast 3068, Wyeast 4184 Sweet Mead Yeast 


You can make a decent cider from the following:

Preservative free apple juice or a mixture of Preservative free apple and pear juice

200g - 500g of lactose- This sweetens the cider as lactose isn't a fermentable sugar.

Yeast Nutrient (I use at 7 and 14 days)


Other optional additions can be the following:

100g - 500g of additional sugar - Honey(Ironbark or Orange Blossum are good), dextrose, brown sugar or raw sugar. All are optional and depending on how strong you want the cider. I personally like the honey.

1-4 Cinnamon Sticks - I usually boil for 10 minutes to kill off any little critters.

1-3 Cloves - As per above. Don't use to many as it can contribute an overpowering taste

Nutmeg - Not sure how much to use as i've never used it before. 

I'm sure there are others but hopefully this is enough 


You should also consider cold crashing your cider as it does two things. Couldnt find precise info but it appears to be used to stop fermentation at a point where you want your Specific Gravity at and is also used improve to clarity of cider before bottling. A cold crash of a fermenter in a fridge for a week is usually recommended.

Lastly i'd suggest you age the cider between 3-6 months. The longer you wait the better!

Hope this helps!


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## jonocarroll (30/6/09)

Verbyla said:


> You should also consider cold crashing your cider as it does two things. Couldn't find precise info but it appears to be used to stop fermentation at a point where you want your Specific Gravity at and is also used improve to clarity of cider before bottling. A cold crash of a fermenter in a fridge for a week is usually recommended.
> 
> Lastly i'd suggest you age the cider between 3-6 months. The longer you wait the better!


I'm not certain you'll get to 3 months following this advice.

AFAIK a cold crash will improve clarity, and put yeast to sleep. That's all well and good if you're kegging, but if you then bottle the cider, especially with a bit of sugar, you'll likely wake the yeast right up, and they'll be quite content to make bottle bombs for you.

The only method I'm aware of for bottle conditioning a naturally sweet, sparkling cider is keeving. Otherwise the lactose is the next best thing.


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## manticle (30/6/09)

I cold crash/ lager mine AFTER fermentation is finished (1005-1000) and it has beautiful results. I'm not sure about trying to stop fermentation to aid sweetness though. I'd be inclined to agree with QB - yeast may become dormant but possibly roused again in future. You can stop fermentation early if you are kegging - otherwise you need different methods for sweetening.


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## tcraig20 (30/6/09)

I think its best to keep things simple. 

Apple juice (preservative free) and a good, low-attenuation yeast (e.g. Windsor) will produce a reasonably sweet cider. 

If you want something really sweet, replace some of the apple juice with apple/pear juice. The pear juice will leave more residual sweetness than the apple. 

I can usually get preservative free juice for a buck a litre. 

One other thing you should do is take a little yeast (bread yeast or any other yeast is fine), boil it in a little water for a few minutes and then add it to the fermenter. This will give the brewing yeast some nutrient and substantially reduce fermenting time (from 3+ months to a few weeks). I wouldnt bother doing anything as complicated as racking. 

In terms of costs, 25 litres of juice should cost about $25, the yeast about $4. I dont think that anyone could call 2.7 cartons of for $29 expensive.


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## Fents (30/6/09)

20L's preservative free apple juice
5L preservative free pear juice
US-05 or S-04 yeast

usuaully finishes about 1.010 - 1.015, nice and sweet. S-04 usually finishes higher than US-05.

even better if you keg it, just stop it at what ever gravity you want. bottles you cant do that.


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## Scruffy (30/6/09)

Coles round our way (Bris) are doing a two 2.4ltrs preserve free apple for $6.00...

It's a start... :blink:


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## bum (1/7/09)

Blackrock kit, 500g lactose and as much apple and apple/pear juice as you wanna pay for (water to make up the remaining volume). Back sweeten with apple juice when serving. You're gonna have to leave it a long time in the bottle before you get anything approaching Strongbow Sweet - the harshness you can get with a young cider will not work at all here.

Not the cheapest way to do it but it's the probably only way you'll get near the cider you're trying to replicate. The all juice methods described are cheaper but will finish way too dry for what you're looking for.


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## tcraig20 (1/7/09)

Scruffy said:


> Coles round our way (Bris) are doing a two 2.4ltrs preserve free apple for $6.00...
> 
> It's a start... :blink:



Last time I made cider I got 4 litres of preservative free juice for $3.99 from woolworths.


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## brettprevans (1/7/09)

most of the juices are now preservitive free. 
coles smart buy
woolworths homebrand
aldi generic brand
golden circle
berri
etc

are all preservitive free. Yes they are reconstititued or made from a % of concentrate but they are still better than the old cheap nasty juice.


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## Scruffy (1/7/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> are all preservitive free. Yes they are reconstititued or made from a % of concentrate but they are still better than the old cheap nasty juice.



Not sure if I agree with reconstituted sources (I think the Berri stuff is from real apples though - hence my other post - i wouldn't have a clue otherwise, now - ask me where the cider orchards are in England... :icon_drunk: )
Isn't this what the OP objected to? 

Although i reckon if the OP wants authentic Woodpecker/Strongbow whatever (sweet - nothing wrong with sweet), he should dissolve some fermentable sugars up to desired OG - ferment it: 4 KG dextrose in 26l water for 24L 1.040? after 20 minutes boil - should yield about 5.00% ABV, then add a concentrate or juice to get it tasting vaguely like apples, then bung some extra caramel or saccharin in for the sweetness...

All the sugar in apples is fermentable - so you should get a FG of near 1.000, hence less than apply flavour in home-made ciders and the sugar additions...

There's a order of magnitude difference between mass produced ciders (Stongbow/Mercury et all) and scrumpy...


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## tcraig20 (1/7/09)

Scruffy said:


> Isn't this what the OP objected to?



The only thing I saw the OP object to was 'flat and shithouse cider'.


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## Scruffy (1/7/09)

JamesCraig said:


> The only thing I saw the OP object to was 'flat and shithouse cider'.



So he's not objecting to it then...


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## tcraig20 (1/7/09)

Scruffy said:


> So he's not objecting to it then...



Huh?


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## brettprevans (1/7/09)

max10au said:


> Hi All
> I would like to make a Cider brew as close to the Strongbow Sweet taste.
> only made a cider from a Canned mix and it tasted flat and shithouse.
> dont want to spend a lot of money making it.
> All I want is a Cider that is Sparkling (With Bubbles) and drinkable.



i thinik the OP is self explanatory. I think we've helped.


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## bum (1/7/09)

We might not have helped all we could, actually...

Max, how long did you leave your first cider in the bottle before drinking? Most ciders take a long time to carb up and can be infamous for tasting awful young. Ciders take much longer than beer to condition. Maybe time was more your problem than your recipe?


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## brettprevans (1/7/09)

I recon it might have also been the temp it was fermented at. although reports from other AHB's on cider kits is mixed. some recon its horrible and other recon its ok. i recon it probably to do with the freshness of the kit.

edit: strongbow sweet cider by bum. calling jokes thread


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## Scruffy (1/7/09)

JamesCraig said:


> Huh?



Purile attempt at humour... my apologies.

I think I answered his question. He likes Strongbow sweet (hey, I like Mercury sweet if I'm in the mood...), he doesn't like the supermarket(?) kit and wants to make about 23l.
Every one else has gone with the ferment the apple juice route (and a very noble route, steeped in history and tradition it is...) - I pointed out that all apple sugars are fermentable so what he'd be left with couldn't really be described by the words sweet or Strongbow. I presented a method of producing an ethanol beverage flavoured with apples and sugar - though my method might finish on the weak side (2-3%ABV) I believe most manufacturers these days 'make wine' out of fruit (Grape/Apple/Sugar etc) brewed to about 15% then dilute/blend with apple juice to around 6-8%, this gives the hint of apple and the desired sweet taste...

I could have said, squash some apples and leave them in a bucket under a tree for a bit...

The flat and shithouse drink the OP referred to was the concentrate wasn't it? 

The trope employed by my - so he's not objecting to it - statement should be taken as a rhetorical explanation of an idea through a juxtaposition of disparate things with similar characteristics, FFS.


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## max10au (1/7/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> i thinik the OP is self explanatory. I think we've helped.




I bottled it after 7 days and it was at a temp of about 27degrees and then drank it about 2weeks later as it said in the directions. I never put Apple juice with it, so please where did I go wrong?


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## tcraig20 (1/7/09)

max10au said:


> I bottled it after 7 days and it was at a temp of about 27degrees and then drank it about 2weeks later as it said in the directions. I never put Apple juice with it, so please where did I go wrong?



Temperature and time may have caused some problems then. Generally, brewing with ale yeast you want to keep the temps down to about 18. When making a cider, I personally think its OK to let things get up to 20 degrees or a little higher. But 27 is too high, and will produce some unusual flavours. 

As for time in the bottle, as others have said cider is notorious for slow carbonation, and needing time in the bottle to sort itself out. Two weeks isnt really enough. I wouldnt expect proper carbonation in under a month. For taste, Ive found it best to treat cider much the same as white wine: dont drink before 6 months in the bottle, best finished before more than 2 years in the bottle. Give it a couple of months in the bottle and try it again - you might end up pleasantly suprised!


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## bum (1/7/09)

+1

I reckon if you go with a kit (Blackrock if you can spring for the extra $$), as much juice as you can be bothered buying, a bit of lactose and time will get you closest.

Another option, of course, is to make and extremely high alc/dry cider and go half and half cider and apple juice. I imagine that this would take even longer to smooth out in the bottle and would be lower carbed


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## pdilley (1/7/09)

I've done Blackrock and to date still can not recommend it. I have a good recipe that I can not do in Oz because it uses frozen concentrate of apple-raspberry to sweeten a fermented and sorbated simple cider and keg carbonated. Frozen juice concentrates are more common than flies in every supermarkwt in the Stayes but never found any here yet.

If anyone want the recipe I'll put it up on request.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## bum (2/7/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> I've done Blackrock and to date still can not recommend it.



How would you compare it to a Strongbow Sweet?


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## max10au (2/7/09)

Thanks for all your advice, now I am really confused as what to do, as there was so many choices. So I spose I will have to guess as how to make a nice Cider. I will brew as soon as I can afford it and tell you all what it was like. But that could be 6 months away as some of you suggested. Once again thanks for all your feedback


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## Scruffy (2/7/09)

Purchase Apple Juice.
Purchase Vodka.
Combine.


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## bum (2/7/09)

He wants it sparkling - maybe Appletise or whatever it is called?


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## manticle (2/7/09)

max10au said:


> Thanks for all your advice, now I am really confused as what to do, as there was so many choices. So I spose I will have to guess as how to make a nice Cider. I will brew as soon as I can afford it and tell you all what it was like. But that could be 6 months away as some of you suggested. Once again thanks for all your feedback



A lot of what's been suggested has similarities.

Use juice, use lactose to sweeten, use a kit if you want and be patient. You'll have to tweak it to your own tastes and it may take a while to get right as there are many paths to the same goal.

If you want to keep it really simple just use a kit but use half the amount of water and use apple juice for the rest. Chuck in 200g lactose, ferment at 20 deg, prime, bottle and wait 6 weeks.

Good luck


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## bum (2/7/09)

+1 to everything you just said except the lactose. I don't reckon 200g is gonna get near Strongbow. I'd up it some.


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## manticle (2/7/09)

bum said:


> +1 to everything you just said except the lactose. I don't reckon 200g is gonna get near Strongbow. I'd up it some.



Kits have some artificial sweeteners in them. I guess my hesitation with lactose (even though I use it) is the idea of too much milk product mixed with apples. It's not based on anything more than a tic in the back of my brain saying 'don't add too much'.

Also I haven't drunk strongbow for at least 11 years.


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## bum (3/7/09)

I'm currently drinking a kit based cider (well, not for breakfast, you know what I mean) that has been in the bottle for 3 months. The recipe is basically the same as the one I suggested above - minus the lactose. The artificial sweeteners are detectable but it is still dry. I think it has turned out a very decent cider. It punches Gaymers in it's stupid, arse-tasting face and stands up remarkably well against Bulmers (pips it, IMO) - but Strongbow Sweet it ain't.

Yeah, milk and apple juice doesn't sound great. Lactose is just a non-fermentable sugar extracted from milk isn't it? It's not like there is any residue milk powder, is there?


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