# RAPT fridge...I bought 1....Review



## usastman (7/10/21)

I was able to purchase the RAPT fridge from Kegland after a long wait.
Fridge spatially is good ...can hold my two 30L alrounder fernenters.
I did not purchase additional probe lead. I did a double brew - whacked fermenters in - set temp. Set the temp and connected to wifi. This allows me to see temp real time - and track the temperature.
Unfortunately the temp bounces around a lot by a couple of degrees either side of set temp. The fridge is continually cooling then heating..?
After fermentation i bought a temp probe...calibrated ...hoping this would make things better. I am washing some yeast and have containers in fridge. Set temp to 5 deg....fridge currently sitting at 7.5 deg - has been at 3 deg...?
Considering purchasing and Inkbird temp controller and using that.
Bit disappointed after shelling out $800.
Hopefully there will be firmware updates that fixes the issue. I am a bit concerned of my next power bill ...as fridge is continually in a cycle of heating and then cooling....time will tell.


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## usastman (7/10/21)




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## clickeral (7/10/21)

Whats the heat and cooling limits? obviously on the inkbirds you can set down to a .3C difference so set of 4C 4.3C it starts cooling and 3.7C it starts heating? 

May need to be a 1C either side? also should have a compressor delay of at least 3mins right? can you adjust settings on these? 

Fermentation will put off heat but it should be able to hold temp, +/- a certain range

My glycol setup as an example overshoots by about .1c when cooling and I have the heater belt set at .3c before it comes on (same with cooling)


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## MHB (7/10/21)

You should be able to adjust the hysteresis (gap between when the fridge turning on and off).

There are issues with setting the band too narrow (fridge turns on and off more often) but remember the beer inside the fermenter will be a lot more stable than the air temperature..
You need to read the operators manual a bit more carefully. I doubt the heater is turning on, but you should be able to set that to.
Mark


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## usastman (7/10/21)

Thanks Mark - only problem ...no manual provided. Videos coming....but a manual would have been nice.
I has seen the hysteresis setting...but was sure if smaller setting or larger was better....no manual to look up.
The screen would show when fridge was cooling or heating. I get that mass of fermenter will be fairly stable ....but i hoped it wouldnt be too much to keep near or about the set temp.
I have since turned of fan setting - seeing if temp stabalises .....not sure if fan shoukd on/off......no manual...?
Wanting to provide feedback to others who may purchase


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## Grmblz (7/10/21)

Here we go again, typical KL V1.0 with the early adopters being used as beta testers.
Firstly fan needs to be "ON" otherwise you will get temperature stratification, hot layer of air up high and cool layer at the bottom.
I use STC 1000's (they're probably very similar to what's running your fridge) hysteresis is set to 1.0c, compressor delay set to 5 min's (good luck finding these settings without a manual) most importantly get the probe and tape it to the fermenter under a bit of insulation, this will (should, if the controllers any good) slow things down and prevent the on/off nonsense, ideally the probe should be in a thermo well in the centre of the brew, but a bit of polystyrene or wet suit material taped over the probe works almost as well.


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## usastman (7/10/21)

Thanks grmblz ...have something to adjust...thanks


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## MHB (7/10/21)

Do leave the fan on.
You will get closer to your set point with the fan running and it will cool the brew faster.
I looked online for the manual and there wasn’t one that I could find, said after you register you should have access and making setting adjustments was mentioned in the video. But yes I agree no manual is a real fail and Grumblz has a point, you are probably helping create the FAQ that later brewers will rely on...
Mark


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## duncbrewer (7/10/21)

Second hand Fridge, heat belt or two heat belts if two brews, a brew pi and temp probes or a couple of brewpiless and add some ispindels and you'll have about 650 dollars in your pocket. Wifi and web readable and you can build a ispindel repeater to display your results as well as relay to the web. The PID controller on the brewpiless I'm using keeps temp within 0.2 degrees and isn't cycling the heating and cooling that often, see the red or dark blue bars on the bottom of the graph. I haven't linked the ispindel into this brewpiless as I connect that via brewspy and leave brewpiless to get on with the control.
That said the stc 1000 I used before did a very good job but required physical adjustment and viewing by line of sight.


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## usastman (7/10/21)

Duncbrewer - i was heading down the road of second hand fridge etc. But decided to go the turn key solution - splurge. I assume when i set my kegorator or kitchen fridge to 5 deg....it sits on 5 deg. I expect the same from a purpose built fermentation fridge. For 800 large...?


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## Nullnvoid (8/10/21)

I think it's probably an innacurate assumption that your kitchen fridge or kegerator stays on the temp you set it on. It would fluctuate as well. You just don't know this until you start fermenting in a fridge 

For my own system, I have a freezer an inkbird and both a Fermzilla and Fermenter King. I now also have a thermowell in both fermenters. When I used to do what GMBLZ said and tape the probe to the side of the fermenter under a stubby holder I got less fluctuation either side of the set temperature, than I now do with the thermowell. It is probably my settings on the inkbird but there is now definitely a 1degree +/- swing using the probe in the thermowell as the liquid heats and cools.





With thermowell





Without thermowell


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## duncbrewer (8/10/21)

@usastman 
I completely agree with you. It should just work, it's not rocket science it's fridge science. I'm not rapt about your reports that's for sure. 

As you can see on my data chain, actually very little going on at all with heating or cooling, though this is day 3 of a saison ferment so activity is reducing. I had to return my Hop missile as the bottom edge of it was razor sharp ( i could cut paper with it ) and had my power supply for Maltzilla blow up first time I turned it on. So problems aren't unknown. Suggestion from the producer of the hop missile was never happened before and file or sand it down. The fact I returned it to the supplier as they wanted to check it and they didn't send a replacement but filed mine down suggests the rest of the batch had problems as well.
There's always the not of merchantable quality option to exercise if it doesn't work properly. It's very bad for the fridge compressor cycling on and off in rapid succession. Also inefficient on energy. You haven't got the fridge jammed up between cupboards and no air circulation by any chance?


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## duncbrewer (8/10/21)

@Nullnvoid 
I find there is a discrepancy between the temp probe in thermowell and the ispindel reading but that is only if thermowell measures near bottom of fermentasaurus and the ispindel is floating on the top. Difference in height about 30 cm. 
I also think you get more cycling when there is air around the temp probe which there is in the thermowell. I used to use blu tack to hold the sensor on the side and then foam over the top and that possibly also helped stability.


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## Nullnvoid (8/10/21)

That's an excellent point about the difference in height. Makes sense.

It doesn't really concern me, either way I'm making beer that I enjoy and other people also enjoy so I must be doing something right.

In my opinion, I guess until you start measuring what is happening in a fridge/freezer at regular intervals like we do now, you don't really consider what is happening inside and you assume it's at the same temperature the whole time.


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## clickeral (8/10/21)

If you take some screen shots of each setting function I can probably have a guess at what each one is, ive used a few different controllers now


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## Half-baked (8/10/21)

I agree it’s very poor form not to have a manual available, but want to hear a bit more about @usastman’s process before making judgment. 

Particularly, where was the temp probe? If it was dangling in the air, then even the best temp controller will have quite big temp fluctuations…


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## duncbrewer (8/10/21)

@Half-baked agreed, dangling temp probe in my keg fridge is up and down with the fan and then with the compressor cycling on and off. Much steadier reading stuck to the side of a keg with blu tack . It's the beer temp that matters not the air temp.


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## postmaster (8/10/21)

usastman said:


> I was able to purchase the RAPT fridge from Kegland after a long wait.
> Fridge spatially is good ...can hold my two 30L alrounder fernenters.
> I did not purchase additional probe lead. I did a double brew - whacked fermenters in - set temp. Set the temp and connected to wifi. This allows me to see temp real time - and track the temperature.
> Unfortunately the temp bounces around a lot by a couple of degrees either side of set temp. The fridge is continually cooling then heating..?
> ...


Got one myself and just fermenting a pale ale. I changed the hysteresis gap heating and cooling to 1 deg. I am using the pale ale profile and it seems to be performing okay. Left the compressor delay to 54 minutes. Since it has been rapping up a deg a day I did notice it was heating a bit more, I only have the fan on when its cooling or heating. I have the probe attached to the fermenter with a piece of polystryene as insulation.


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## Grmblz (8/10/21)

The temp probe is behind a small plastic grill in the right hand side wall about a third of the way up, interesting choice of location  
Given the intended usage (temp controlled fermentation) of this product, and the accepted wisdom of measuring the liquid temp rather than air temp I find this whole add-on sensor thing a bit Heath Robinson, especially at its $900 price point, it's almost as if it's an afterthought or a MacGyver fix for a product that doesn't work as intended. Will be amazed if the Rapt V1.1 doesn't address this issue.


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## mynameisrodney (8/10/21)

I thought you got the best control when you had both a beer temp and chamber temp reading? Like the brewpi does it. So from that perspective it does make sense to have the chamber probe where it is, but I agree, its pretty poor not including the beer probe.


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## duncbrewer (8/10/21)

I think they want you to consider using the RAPT pill as the beer sensor ( another untested extra).


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## Half-baked (8/10/21)

Grmblz said:


> The temp probe is behind a small plastic grill in the right hand side wall about a third of the way up, interesting choice of location



Well I think that’s all the information I need to pass judgment…


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## Bourkie (8/10/21)

I think there is a private FB group for owners. I tried to join to learn more about the RAPT platform, but was asked for an order number and denied access without actually owning the product. Hopefully Kegland and other owners will be able to help you out then. There's a link in their Kegland FB public group.


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## Stoichiometrist (8/10/21)

I was also (lucky?) enough to score the RAPT fridge. Nice looking unit, good finish and well thought out extras such as incorporating spunding valve into front. I can report the same problem and concern as the OP.
The unit temperature swings wildly. I have narrowed the hysteresis which reduced the temp swings from 5 degrees to about 4 degrees. My target temp was 18 and later 18.5 degrees for a cider. Looking at the temp sticker on the fermentor the fluctuations are more like 2 degrees. That's worse than my previous set up with simple insulation and heating/cooling in my bathtub!!!

Given how long this unit has been in development, and that its "Kee's baby" I cannot believe there is no instruction manual.

Given the presumed extensive testing, I also cannot believe that Kegland were not aware of the temp fluctuations. Yet when I ring Kegland for advice and express my concerns about the temperature fluctuations, staff seemed to have no idea and also no idea how to fix it (narrowing the hysteresis only marginally improved it but not to an acceptable level).

I did not buy the 'optional extra' extended temp probe but I think this is MANDATORY! As with previous comments, I think it will improve the temp control. Kegland should include this with every RAPT IMHO!

Its not just about improving the temp control - but also about the unit efficiency. Because the temp is constantly over shooting, the RAPT spends it's time jumping between heating and cooling. It is almost constantly on!! Ironically, the unit sits in a room with an average temp of 18 degrees.

The key advantages of the RAPT fridge were its excellent temperature regulation and its efficiency in achieving this. So far it has not achieved this. Hopefully they will be ironed out soon and so make RAPT great again.


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## Reg Holt (9/10/21)

Grmblz said:


> The temp probe is behind a small plastic grill in the right hand side wall about a third of the way up, interesting choice of location
> Given the intended usage (temp controlled fermentation) of this product, and the accepted wisdom of measuring the liquid temp rather than air temp I find this whole add-on sensor thing a bit Heath Robinson, especially at its $900 price point, it's almost as if it's an afterthought or a MacGyver fix for a product that doesn't work as intended. Will be amazed if the Rapt V1.1 doesn't address this issue.



I agree with you Grmblz, but I think the Rapt V1.1 is a bit optimistic. I would have thought that by now the brewing fraternity should know the first cabs off the rank in regards to product from KL is something to give a wide berth to. Elvis would have.


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## duncbrewer (10/10/21)

I think they should release them as 0.x versions first off. 
Think of the things that have been released and never been seen again or get reworked. It's becoming a list.


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## usastman (10/10/21)

Thanks for the feedback. Some settings requiring explanation....no manual...?
PID heating, PID cycle time, pID coefficient settings
Compressor cool down time..?
Mode switch delay..?


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## Stoichiometrist (11/10/21)

I have no doubt this fridge will be awesome, just needs some tweaking and good customer support.


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## KegLand-com-au (11/10/21)

usastman said:


> Thanks Mark - only problem ...no manual provided. Videos coming....but a manual would have been nice.
> I has seen the hysteresis setting...but was sure if smaller setting or larger was better....no manual to look up.
> The screen would show when fridge was cooling or heating. I get that mass of fermenter will be fairly stable ....but i hoped it wouldnt be too much to keep near or about the set temp.
> I have since turned of fan setting - seeing if temp stabalises .....not sure if fan shoukd on/off......no manual...?
> Wanting to provide feedback to others who may purchase



We do have the manual online here:
RAPT Quick Start Guide - Manual

We are rapidly making changes to the firmware and web portal to include more features and as a result we will be updating this online PDF as well soon to reflect this so rather than storing a local copy on your computer please download a new manual from the link above whenever you need to refer to it.


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## KegLand-com-au (11/10/21)

mynameisrodney said:


> I thought you got the best control when you had both a beer temp and chamber temp reading? Like the brewpi does it. So from that perspective it does make sense to have the chamber probe where it is, but I agree, its pretty poor not including the beer probe.



Having used the product for a while now the probe extension in my opinion is not necessary. Some customers are obsessed with using a probe that goes into a thermowell however as the fan in this fermentation chamber is quite powerful the air space in the fridge is very even and fairly quickly the air temperature inside the fridge will be equal to the core temp in the fermenter. So you really do not need to use the extended probe and the included one on the side of the fridge does a perfectly adequate job.

If you guys really wanted us to do this would could make the extended probe come as standard but we are also a bit worried that some customers may find that this looks a bit messy having a new product arrive to you with a long dangling cable that you may or may not want to use. Would be keen to get all your thoughts on this though. How many of you would prefer the neat probe integrated into the wall or to have the long probe pre-installed?


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## KegLand-com-au (11/10/21)

Stoichiometrist said:


> I have no doubt this fridge will be awesome, just needs some tweaking and good customer support.



You mentioned that you had some temperature swings in the product. Have you got the updated firmware as this was one thing that was improved on a firmware release 2 weeks ago. Please go into the menu on the display and check for OTA (over the air) updates.


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## usastman (11/10/21)

Update....temp probe taped to fermenter....with butchered stubby holder over sensor. Temperature a lot more stable ....with fan off. Have enabled fan and seeing how stable temp remains


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## peteru (11/10/21)

KegLand-com-au said:


> If you guys really wanted us to do this would could make the extended probe come as standard but we are also a bit worried that some customers may find that this looks a bit messy having a new product arrive to you with a long dangling cable that you may or may not want to use. Would be keen to get all your thoughts on this though. How many of you would prefer the neat probe integrated into the wall or to have the long probe pre-installed?



How about using a 3.5mm socket for the probe, flush with the fridge wall? Connect the probe cable using a 90 degree 3.5mm plug. Quick and neat connection, space efficient and the 3.5mm connector will allow for rotation of the probe cable. In the grand scheme of things, this is minimal cost. Using a 3.5mm connector would also allow for the electrical disconnection of the probe built into the wall of the fridge. Although, I think it would be preferable to have two temperature channels and feed the algorithm with more data points, being the fridge temp and probe temp.


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## Stoichiometrist (12/10/21)

KegLand-com-au said:


> You mentioned that you had some temperature swings in the product. Have you got the updated firmware as this was one thing that was improved on a firmware release 2 weeks ago. Please go into the menu on the display and check for OTA (over the air) updates.



Firmware already up to date. Here's a screenshot of the temp. Up to 6 Oct the hysteresis was changed to 1 degree, and after that I reset it to the default 2 degrees for comparison. Any recommendations to reduce the temp swings and improve efficiency would be much appreciated.
Note - I'm cold crashing a cider from now.


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## KegLand-com-au (12/10/21)

Stoichiometrist said:


> Firmware already up to date. Here's a screenshot of the temp. Up to 6 Oct the hysteresis was changed to 1 degree, and after that I reset it to the default 2 degrees for comparison. Any recommendations to reduce the temp swings and improve efficiency would be much appreciated.
> Note - I'm cold crashing a cider from now.View attachment 121288




It's important to remember that the RAPT fridge will heat and cool the airspace around the fermenter which has veyr little thermal mass. Just because you get the air go up and down in quick succession it doesnt meant that the fermenter (which is a large thermal mass will not do this) so it's completely acceptable for this type of fluctuation to occur. 

To put the numbers into consideration the RAPT fermentation chamber which holds 280L of air so for this amount of air will increase/decrese in themperature by 1C if you pump in/out 0.336 Joules of energy. However for 30l of beer (which is pretty much water) will require 125.4Joules to increase/decrese the temperature of the fermenter by 1C.

Because so little energy is required to move the the air temperature you will always get fluctuations in the air but this is not that relevant because the thermal mass of the fermenter will buffer this fluctuation.

It would be possible for us to put not very poweful heater or very low powered compressor in the RAPT chamber and this would make the fluctuations more smooth however it would mean in really hot climates or very cold climates it would take a long time to change the fermenter temperature (especially if you a fermenter that is large like the 118L kegmenter)

If you had the extended probe that goes into a thermowell in the fermenter this will definitely eaven out the peaks and troffs but the air space would still fluctuate. The graph would just look nicer.

Mode switch delay - At the moment you have this set at 5min but can you increase this to 15min or greater as this will help the situation and also smooth out the graph.

Also another thing that we are working on now is PID cooling as at the moment we only have PID heating as an option. At the moment it looks like you are not using the PID feature at all and perhaps customers find the PID feature a bit difficult to setup as probably many customers do not know what the ideal PID settings are. So we are looking to make a new firmware upgrade that will automatically learn rather than have to set the PID values. This way whe you change to a different fermenter type or change the placement of your probe in the fridge the PID learning function can take this into consideration.


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## duncbrewer (12/10/21)

Talk about reinventing the wheel!


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## KegLand-com-au (12/10/21)

peteru said:


> How about using a 3.5mm socket for the probe, flush with the fridge wall? Connect the probe cable using a 90 degree 3.5mm plug. Quick and neat connection, space efficient and the 3.5mm connector will allow for rotation of the probe cable. In the grand scheme of things, this is minimal cost. Using a 3.5mm connector would also allow for the electrical disconnection of the probe built into the wall of the fridge. Although, I think it would be preferable to have two temperature channels and feed the algorithm with more data points, being the fridge temp and probe temp.




It might be worth noting that we have put a bluetooth chip on the RAPT fermentation chambers and at the moment this is not currently being used for anything but we will be using this more in future and the purpose and advantages of this will be come more clear in future as we continue to release firmware upgrades.

Right now we are also working on another wireless bluetooth probe. As low energy bluetooth is so efficient these days you can run a bluetooth probe in the fridge that is completely wireless and the battery will last years even with fairly fast sampling rate (every 10 seconds). So in this instance you could also purchase a wireless probe that you could sync with your fridge and then this would feed data back to the RAPT chamber. This data could be simply overlaid and displayed on the graph in the RAPT portal or it would also be possible to take this temperature reading to control the fridge to make the heating and cooling device turn on/off with the bluetooth probe rather than the integrated NTC wired probe.

So the RAPT fermentation chamber will act as a bluetooth gateway in future and so will other new devices that we sell too such as the BrewZilla Gen 4. For this same reason you would be able to use a wireless bluetooth probe and pair the probe with your Fermentation Chamber when you are fermenting then pair it with your BrewZilla Gen 4 when you are brewing beer for instance.


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## Mysticbrewer (12/10/21)

KegLand-com-au said:


> It might be worth noting that we have put a bluetooth chip on the RAPT fermentation chambers and at the moment this is not currently being used for anything but we will be using this more in future and the purpose and advantages of this will be come more clear in future as we continue to release firmware upgrades.
> 
> Right now we are also working on another wireless bluetooth probe. As low energy bluetooth is so efficient these days you can run a bluetooth probe in the fridge that is completely wireless and the battery will last years even with fairly fast sampling rate (every 10 seconds). So in this instance you could also purchase a wireless probe that you could sync with your fridge and then this would feed data back to the RAPT chamber. This data could be simply overlaid and displayed on the graph in the RAPT portal or it would also be possible to take this temperature reading to control the fridge to make the heating and cooling device turn on/off with the bluetooth probe rather than the integrated NTC wired probe.
> 
> So the RAPT fermentation chamber will act as a bluetooth gateway in future and so will other new devices that we sell too such as the BrewZilla Gen 4. For this same reason you would be able to use a wireless bluetooth probe and pair the probe with your Fermentation Chamber when you are fermenting then pair it with your BrewZilla Gen 4 when you are brewing beer for instance.


How would this additional temp probe differ from the Rapt pill?


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## Cian Doyle (12/10/21)

Reg Holt said:


> I agree with you Grmblz, but I think the Rapt V1.1 is a bit optimistic. I would have thought that by now the brewing fraternity should know the first cabs off the rank in regards to product from KL is something to give a wide berth to. Elvis would have.


Elvis?


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## Reg Holt (13/10/21)

Cian Doyle said:


> Elvis?


Some song he sang about it being foolish to rush in.


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## Grmblz (13/10/21)

duncbrewer said:


> Talk about reinventing the wheel!


Smoke and mirrors mate, there's already a thread for this sort of sales rubbish, OP was asking for advice not nebulous excuses or theoretical future features, even if they do come from "critical" minds. 
Being an early adopter has always come with its risks, but some companies are a much higher risk then others. Caveat Emptor.


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## KegLand-com-au (13/10/21)

Mysticbrewer said:


> How would this additional temp probe differ from the Rapt pill?



Yes the RAPT Pill is a completely separate device. The RAPT pill hydrometer is mainly for checking gravity although it does have a temp probe also.

The separate RAPT bluetooth temperature probe has a stainless steel probe on it so you can insert it into a thermowell or into the malt pipe of your BrewZilla and you will not be able to do this with the RAPT Pill.


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## CJW (13/10/21)

KegLand-com-au said:


> The separate RAPT bluetooth temperature probe has a stainless steel probe on it so you can insert it into a thermowell or into the malt pipe of your BrewZilla and you will not be able to do this with the RAPT Pill.


Cool, when do you expect that to be available? It seems like it is intended to be an important part of the RAPT ecosystem.


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## chrisfromperth (13/10/21)

KegLand-com-au said:


> _It's important to remember that the RAPT fridge will heat and cool the airspace around the fermenter which has veyr little thermal mass. Just because you get the air go up and down in quick succession it doesnt meant that the fermenter (which is a large thermal mass will not do this) so it's completely acceptable for this type of fluctuation to occur._



"Yes - what he said!" The fermenter liquid has a huge lag compared to the airspace around it. Heat flow is small when there's only a couple of degrees difference, the plus or minus 2C of the air will translate into probably plus or minus 0.1C in the fermenter, at equilibrium (*more on this later). And that's one good reason not to run fridge temperature control off of the fermenter temperature - there'd be massive overshoots in the chilling, then massive overshoots in the heating, and hysteresis seen by the fermenting liquid would be the full 2 degrees. 
** Downside to the lag:* If your fermenter is at say 20C and you throw it into the RAPT and set temperature to 12C, it will take a couple of days to get close to 12C (you've just screwed up the vital first days of that pilsner). Better to kick it all the way down to zero air temperature to accelerate cooling, and take a measurement from the fermenter. When the fermenter hits 12C, then set the fridge temperature to 12C to maintain temperature. Rate of heat flow is proportional to the difference in temperature. 



KegLand-com-au said:


> _Also another thing that we are working on now is PID cooling as at the moment we only have PID heating as an option. _



Wow - PID control of cooling is difficult with an on/off compressor system (it can't ramp power up or down, it's just on or off, and doesn't like rapid cycling). Unless you go to an inverter system (like a modern heat pump airconditioner). Or store cold air (or fluid) and feed a heat exchange system with a PID-controlled pump? But maybe that's the answer, an inverter heat pump that can handle both heating and cooling - but that changes the price significantly. IMHO, I'm not convinced that PID cooling is necessary. Hysteresis and lag are your friends (subject to *).


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## Mysticbrewer (13/10/21)

KegLand-com-au said:


> Yes the RAPT Pill is a completely separate device. The RAPT pill hydrometer is mainly for checking gravity although it does have a temp probe also.
> 
> The separate RAPT bluetooth temperature probe has a stainless steel probe on it so you can insert it into a thermowell or into the malt pipe of your BrewZilla and you will not be able to do this with the RAPT Pill.


Deleted


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## mynameisrodney (13/10/21)

Stoichiometrist said:


> Firmware already up to date. Here's a screenshot of the temp. Up to 6 Oct the hysteresis was changed to 1 degree, and after that I reset it to the default 2 degrees for comparison. Any recommendations to reduce the temp swings and improve efficiency would be much appreciated.
> Note - I'm cold crashing a cider from now.View attachment 121288


Have you got a way to measure the beer temp as opposed to the air temp? Preferably on a second system not connected to RAPT. Then you can check to see what the actual swing in the beer is. 

In terms of efficiency, can you turn off the heating and run it as cooling only? If so I'd be doing this for the majority of fermentation. The yeast should generate enough heat of its own in an insulated chamber. Turn the heating back on if you want to bump the temp up for a diacetyl rest.


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## sp0rk (15/10/21)

The below video is about 3D printers, but what Angus is talking about is 100% applicable to Kegland's business model
Pump out new products ******* CONSTANTLY, and just release new versions or a "new better thing" every few months to hide the rushed, bug/issue riddled products they last released


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## sp0rk (15/10/21)

oh I forgot, the seppo overlords censor us now...


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## Mysticbrewer (15/10/21)

sp0rk said:


> oh I forgot, the seppo overlords censor us now...


Yooo, slaty dog, can you actually point to where Kl have reiterated a product at a monthly frequency/??


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## Grmblz (15/10/21)

Mysticbrewer said:


> Yooo, slaty dog, can you actually point to where Kl have reiterated a product at a monthly frequency/??


Oh dear, a KL fanboi, you're on the wrong thread mate, nav over to KL Q&A for your jollies.
Who claimed a product "monthly"? Read the post pal, and then go to KL Q&A, page one and "read" yes! the whole thing, remembering that many unflattering posts have been deleted, there's still plenty there for an open mind. fwiw it's called due diligence. 
Criticism is censored on the KL thread, ie "you are banned from commenting on this thread" OK fair call, as sponsors they can decide who can and cannot post on their thread, but to come onto the rest of the forum with their sales crap, and excuses for immature beta product is not what we are about here, look at the OP #1 and then read how this thread degenerated into an excuse, b/s trail. 
Look at how we ended up with the Robobrew 3.1.1, it is now a reasonable product (for the price maybe) but only because of the constant "upgrades" (ka-ching!) from the original, and all-in a very short time frame.
How many suckers will buy into the Brewzilla 4 only to have "upgrades" after the general public has used them and found flaws, will we finally see a Brewzilla 4.1.1?
For anybody that's been on this forum for more than a couple of years it's common knowledge that KL do their beta testing on their customers, good enough for government work  
It's actually a real shame that some good ideas are so badly let down by poor implementation, just stand by and watch the whole Rapt thing (which should be brilliant) turn into a complete goat f**k, with "more" stuff coming, and a never ending "update" cycle. @peteru good luck mate.
After all is said and done, there'll be far more said than done, applies to politicians and certain business models. 
How dya fleece a flock of sheep? Bring out a new i-phone/robozilla something.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (16/10/21)

CJW said:


> Cool, when do you expect that to be available? It seems like it is intended to be an important part of the RAPT ecosystem.


The website mentions The Pill will be available 15th November but I wouldn't be holding my breath, from what I have heard they are having trouble getting that right too. Then again that won't worry them. Release ready or not.


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## KegLand-com-au (16/10/21)

Stoichiometrist said:


> Firmware already up to date. Here's a screenshot of the temp. Up to 6 Oct the hysteresis was changed to 1 degree, and after that I reset it to the default 2 degrees for comparison. Any recommendations to reduce the temp swings and improve efficiency would be much appreciated.
> Note - I'm cold crashing a cider from now.View attachment 121288




Can you please do one thing for me. Can you please hit this setting here and turn the fan off. This will only cycle the fan on with heating and cooling rather than being on all the time. Once you have done this please upload the graph again after you have about 1-2 days of data.


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## KegLand-com-au (16/10/21)

chrisfromperth said:


> "Yes - what he said!" The fermenter liquid has a huge lag compared to the airspace around it. Heat flow is small when there's only a couple of degrees difference, the plus or minus 2C of the air will translate into probably plus or minus 0.1C in the fermenter, at equilibrium (*more on this later). And that's one good reason not to run fridge temperature control off of the fermenter temperature - there'd be massive overshoots in the chilling, then massive overshoots in the heating, and hysteresis seen by the fermenting liquid would be the full 2 degrees.
> ** Downside to the lag:* If your fermenter is at say 20C and you throw it into the RAPT and set temperature to 12C, it will take a couple of days to get close to 12C (you've just screwed up the vital first days of that pilsner). Better to kick it all the way down to zero air temperature to accelerate cooling, and take a measurement from the fermenter. When the fermenter hits 12C, then set the fridge temperature to 12C to maintain temperature. Rate of heat flow is proportional to the difference in temperature.
> 
> 
> ...




I would also agree that PID is really necessary but it's something that customers ask for a lot so we are doing this purely based on customer demand rather than it being a requirement. If we implement PID cooling it will have more to do with turning off the compressor as we approach the set point rather than quickly turning the compressor on and off in quick succession like we do on the heating side.


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## KegLand-com-au (16/10/21)

wide eyed and legless said:


> The website mentions The Pill will be available 15th November but I wouldn't be holding my breath, from what I have heard they are having trouble getting that right too. Then again that won't worry them. Release ready or not.



The stock is in Australia ready to dispactch however we have found a method to further improve accuracy over a larger range and as a result we have decided to finish this last firmware upgrade before we release to the public. I mean it could be released now but at the end of the day we do not want to rush this to market just so we can bring the sales forward by a few weeks so this 15th November date is going to be delayed unfortunately.

If you dont mind me asking you a questions, you say "I have heard they are having trouble getting that right too" where did you hear this? I work at KegLand and have not heard this so interested to know where you get this idea and this information.


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## wide eyed and legless (17/10/21)

Comment removed by moderator as not helpful.


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## duncbrewer (17/10/21)

Do you get a certificate with every Rapt purchase ? 
" Congratulations you're an Alpha tester "

If the fan isn't on most of the time you will get a thermocline developing in the fridge. The reading will be more stable at the sensor but not necessarily across the whole height of the fridge.


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## wide eyed and legless (17/10/21)

KegLand-com-au said:


> The stock is in Australia ready to dispactch however we have found a method to further improve accuracy over a larger range and as a result we have decided to finish this last firmware upgrade before we release to the public. I mean it could be released now but at the end of the day we do not want to rush this to market just so we can bring the sales forward by a few weeks so this 15th November date is going to be delayed unfortunately.
> 
> If you dont mind me asking you a questions, you say "I have heard they are having trouble getting that right too" where did you hear this? I work at KegLand and have not heard this so interested to know where you get this idea and this information.


I will answer your question again, I sold a Tilt on Market place. The guy who bought it has a friend who works at KegLand, I told him he could get three Pills off his mate for what I charged him for the Tilt. That is when he told me that KegLand were having problems getting the Pill right. I am presuming the post was deleted because I mentioned another matter. So I will leave that off for now.


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## Tony121 (17/10/21)

Ahhh here we go again. This is exactly why I rarely bother with this forum anymore.


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## KegLand-com-au (17/10/21)

duncbrewer said:


> Do you get a certificate with every Rapt purchase ?
> " Congratulations you're an Alpha tester "
> 
> If the fan isn't on most of the time you will get a thermocline developing in the fridge. The reading will be more stable at the sensor but not necessarily across the whole height of the fridge.



Thanks for the explanation. When we first suggested this solution it was not because there was an issue with the fermenter fluctuating in temperature. It was because the air temperature in the fridge was fluctuating. It seems that we both agree chaging this setting will fix the customers issue.

If you have the RAPT Fermentation Chamber and you want the graph to follow the set temp with the stock probe on the wall then we would suggest that you only cycle the fan on and off with the compressor or heating element. Alternatively if you want the absolute fasted heating and cooling performance then you can put the fan on all the time however you must be aware your graph will fluctuate up and down more to achieve this. Either decision you make the product will do a great job and the core temperature of the fermenter will not fluctuate hardly at all due to the significant thermal mass. In fact it's wort saying the temperature will be precicely between whatever hysteresis settings you use.


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## Reg Holt (18/10/21)

Tony121 said:


> Ahhh here we go again. This is exactly why I rarely bother with this forum anymore.


But you bothered to post. I am on here very rarely, a lot less than you. But I think it is a move in the right direction that criticisms can be aired. Teasers about the Rapt fridge have been posted by KL for quite a while now. If there are problems better they are fixed before some disappointed punter spends a grand on one.

As for the Rapt Pill I had a couple on my shopping list thinking they were due for release on the 15th November. Now thanks to this thread I have learned they are still work in progress and won't be released on that date.


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## GrumpyPaul (18/10/21)

MODERATOR COMMENT:

Please keep in mind that this thread is about a review of the RAPT fridge. 

The discussion of its pros and cons is welcome - and encouraged. But we are treading very close to the line of this thread slipping into one of the terrible shitstorms that just becomes unproductive.

Keep comments on track about the good and bad about the RAPT fridge (or other RAPT products), point out flaws, make suggestions to improve it, discuss the risk associated with being and "early adopter" of v1.0 of a product etc etc.

*BUT - comments that get off track and start talking about the manufacturer, or an other company, and start to steer this thread into one of our famous "I hate/love KK/KL and everything and everyone associated with them" threads wont be tolerated.*

Keep the thread on track


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## Reg Holt (18/10/21)

GrumpyPaul said:


> MODERATOR COMMENT:
> 
> Please keep in mind that this thread is about a review of the RAPT fridge.
> 
> ...


As you have posted under my last post, am I right that you are suggesting I am trying to start a KL/KK thread? I am just carrying on the general flow of the posts. I can't see anywhere where the thread has gone off track....


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## GrumpyPaul (18/10/21)

Reg Holt said:


> As you have posted under my last post, am I right that you are suggesting I am trying to start a KL/KK thread? I am just carrying on the general flow of the posts. I can't see anywhere where the thread has gone off track....


@Reg Holt 

Nah, the fact i posted directly after you was just that i hadn't been on for a few days... most of the threads i alluded to are a few posts back.

In fact most of the posts discusding RAPT are good. Yours in particular i dont have any issue with. 

Just felt like the tone of some were heading down that old path and felt it was better to nip it in the bud.


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## Reg Holt (18/10/21)

Well you are seeing more than me, never saw Keg King mentioned once, as for criticism of Keg Land I think it has been fair. They get a right to reply which they have done, I think it would pay to remember Keg Land exists to serve the brewing community not the other way around. Which it often seems on here.


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## philrob (18/10/21)

OK, points made about all this, although I'll admit I deleted a post a couple of days ago as I thought it was off track and not helpful to any debate.
Let's now just keep it on track as GrumpyPaul suggested very kindly. There is no criticism of any member and no one has been given any warning points or been banned. Debate as GP suggested is helpful and what this forum is about.


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## Grmblz (20/10/21)

WTF! is a "warning point?" I've got a couple of comments but given the Draconian direction this forum has taken of late I'm concerned that "free speech" in the Australian context, will be considered high treason and my log in "banned" after all Texas has just made another great leap backwards in personal freedoms has it not? and where do you take your guidance from?
fwiw phil, weal answered a question put to him by kl, how was that "off track?" and deleting that post WAS! a criticism, AND! censorship.
"_Debate as GP suggested is helpful and what this forum is about_" So why would you want to censor it? Like it or not phil you're coming across as a kl fan, that may not actually be the case, but if it walks like a duck and quacks it sure as hell aint a chicken.
I had the rather dubious honour of being "banned" from both kk and kl threads, my bona fides for equal debate/criticism, (since reinstated to kk, such is the character of those there, yeh ok you may have had a point) no such recognition from the red team alas, even though they implemented my suggestions, which truly shows the calibre or lack thereof of a particular person, but at least saved how many? from the kl v.1 syndrome, not that kl gives a rats rofl. 


btw, you do realise that anyone "following" a thread gets the post, even though you've deleted it.  
By all means redact any part of this post you're not happy with (that's possibly what you signed up to do) but don't just blanket "delete" cus that's not why we're here, and your affiliations real or imagined should have no bearing on the substance of this debate.


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## Stoichiometrist (20/10/21)

KegLand-com-au said:


> We do have the manual online here:
> RAPT Quick Start Guide - Manual



A quick start guide is not a manual.

The guide was useful to get the unit started / connected but that is all.

it is otherwise bereft of essential information.


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## Stoichiometrist (20/10/21)

KegLand-com-au said:


> Having used the product for a while now the probe extension in my opinion is not necessary. Some customers are obsessed with using a probe that goes into a thermowell however as the fan in this fermentation chamber is quite powerful the air space in the fridge is very even and fairly quickly the air temperature inside the fridge will be equal to the core temp in the fermenter. So you really do not need to use the extended probe and the included one on the side of the fridge does a perfectly adequate job.
> 
> If you guys really wanted us to do this would could make the extended probe come as standard but we are also a bit worried that some customers may find that this looks a bit messy having a new product arrive to you with a long dangling cable that you may or may not want to use. Would be keen to get all your thoughts on this though. How many of you would prefer the neat probe integrated into the wall or to have the long probe pre-installed?



As mentioned earlier I think the extension probe should be mandatory with the unit. At least until you get your other rapt products sorted.

Let the customer decide. I think it would be useful to have community testing to validate which probe type and position works best in this fridge.

Accurate fermentation temperatures is not a new concept. Members have already shared their experiences and opinions. They suggest the best temperature readings are obtained from the liquid and not surrounding air.

I am sorry but I simply do not believe your statement:

‘the fan in this fermentation chamber is quite powerful the air space in the fridge is very even and fairly quickly the air temperature inside the fridge will be equal to the core temp in the fermenter’

I think you need to provide proof to make a statement like this.

Scientifically it’s ridiculous. There’s no fan (agitator) in the liquid so there’ll be a temp gradient. Plus fermentation is an exothermic reaction. 

It’s certainly not my experience. For my latest batch, I’ve got two additional temp probes on the side of the fermenter. To achieve temps between 18-20 degrees I’ve had to set the rapt thermostat to as low as 11 degrees and max 16 degrees. 

You should put this in the manual if you ever release one.


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## mynameisrodney (20/10/21)

Stoichiometrist said:


> Scientifically it’s ridiculous. There’s no fan (agitator) in the liquid so there’ll be a temp gradient.



The yeast itself does a pretty good job of agitating the fermenting beer, I doubt there's a significant temp gradient in the beer during active fermentation, and the flow across the wall of the fermenter should be adequate.



Stoichiometrist said:


> It’s certainly not my experience. For my latest batch, I’ve got two additional temp probes on the side of the fermenter. To achieve temps between 18-20 degrees I’ve had to set the rapt thermostat to as low as 11 degrees and max 16 degrees.



Out of curiosity is this with the fan on or off? I know the last advice from KL was to have the fan off when not heating or cooling, but this to me seems like a good way to get overshooting on the hot side. 

As mentioned in a previous post, if it were me, I'd disable heating until you want to raise the temp for a diacetyl rest. Fermentation is producing enough heat in an insulated chamber at this time of year, you shouldn't need to add more. That plus fan on constantly and track the fermenter temp separately as you are doing now and see how it goes.


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## Stoichiometrist (20/10/21)

mynameisrodney said:


> The yeast itself does a pretty good job of agitating the fermenting beer, I doubt there's a significant temp gradient in the beer during active fermentation, and the flow across the wall of the fermenter should be adequate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi Rodney. Yep, fan off as directed by KL. Heating disabled.

True, the fermentation / co2 release is an agitator.

But I’ve not observed such a discrepancy between temp measures with previous batches (Inkbird and other probes used concomitantly). I’ve never used a keezer before cos I saved all my $ for the ‘Plug and Play’ RAPT fridge. I’d be interested in the experiences of other members with ‘off the shelf’ fridge/freezers.

I’m surprised that I have had to run the fridge at 11-16 degrees to achieve 18-20 at the surface of the fermzilla all rounder. Note, starting temp was 19.5 degrees. 

KL and others made a point about the energy required to heat volume of air vs water. There was also a KL comment about the temp always remaining between the hysteresis points. That’s not my experience, when you look at the graph I previously posted.

The explanation by KL in my mind highlights the problem. Because the thermal mass of air is small it takes very little effort for the (very industrial sounding heater and cooler) to achieve the set temperature in the AIR. But, based on my observations, this is not translating to achieving the desired temperature in the LIQUID. Which is the critical factor.

The tiny amount of energy added to the system by cooling/heating the air to the set temp is far less than what is required to achieve the desired effect in the liquid- and the cycle continues as the temperature swings wildly.

I’m not an engineer or scientist so I’m keen for people with knowledge / experience in this to chime in.

Perhaps the rapt needs a second small, quiet fan to run when the cooler / heater is not on?


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## Stoichiometrist (20/10/21)

Grmblz said:


> WTF! is a "warning point?" I've got a couple of comments but given the Draconian direction this forum has taken of late I'm concerned that "free speech" in the Australian context, will be considered high treason and my log in "banned" after all Texas has just made another great leap backwards in personal freedoms has it not? and where do you take your guidance from?
> fwiw phil, weal answered a question put to him by kl, how was that "off track?" and deleting that post WAS! a criticism, AND! censorship.
> "_Debate as GP suggested is helpful and what this forum is about_" So why would you want to censor it? Like it or not phil you're coming across as a kl fan, that may not actually be the case, but if it walks like a duck and quacks it sure as hell aint a chicken.
> I had the rather dubious honour of being "banned" from both kk and kl threads, my bona fides for equal debate/criticism, (since reinstated to kk, such is the character of those there, yeh ok you may have had a point) no such recognition from the red team alas, even though they implemented my suggestions, which truly shows the calibre or lack thereof of a particular person, but at least saved how many? from the kl v.1 syndrome, not that kl gives a rats rofl.
> ...



Question:

Do you think the comment made by WEAL in hisreply that was deleted was relevant to this thread and/or was meant to be inflammatory?

WEAL acknowledges this comment was the reason why his post was removed in post #57.

I”d really like to continue a constructive conversation with out the hyperbole. Cheers


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## mynameisrodney (20/10/21)

Stoichiometrist said:


> But I’ve not observed such a discrepancy between temp measures with previous batches (Inkbird and other probes used concomitantly). I’ve never used a keezer before cos I saved all my $ for the ‘Plug and Play’ RAPT fridge. I’d be interested in the experiences of other members with ‘off the shelf’ fridge/freezers.
> 
> I’m surprised that I have had to run the fridge at 11-16 degrees to achieve 18-20 at the surface of the fermzilla all rounder.



Yeah that's no good. If you haven't seen that discrepancy with previous batches, and this is the first one with the fan off, then that points to the fan off as the culprit.



Stoichiometrist said:


> KL made a point about the energy required to heat volume of air vs water in an attempt to explain that everything is fine.
> 
> But it’s not fine. And the explanation by KL in my mind highlights the problem. Because the thermal mass of air is small it takes very little effort for the (very industrial sounding heater and cooler) to achieve the set temperature in the AIR. But, based on my observations, this is not translating to achieving the desired temperature in the LIQUID. Which is the critical factor.
> 
> The tiny amount of energy added to the system by cooling/heating the air to the set temp is far less than what is required to achieve the desired effect in the liquid- and the cycle continues as the temperature swings wildly.



What they said was that wild swings in the air temp are to be expected, and this is true. When the fridge switches on the air will rapidly cool to below the set point and turn off. As you say, the thermal mass of the air is tiny compared to the thermal mass of the beer, so these wild temperature swings are not necessarily occurring in the beer. Cycling this on and off to get to the desired temp of the beer is a valid approach. It's similar to cycling a heating element off to keep a desired mash temp. There's no point in worrying about the heating element rapidly changing temp as it switches on and off, what matters is the mash temp.

Missing the setpoint is a different issue. Maybe it helps to split the problems out and address individually.

The air temp rapidly fluctuates. In my opinion this doesn't matter as long as the beer temp is stable, and the fluctuations aren't so quick that you are damaging equipment with rapid cycling. EDIT: AND as long as the "up" swings are as a result of the beer heating the air and not the heater heating the air.
The beer temp is way off the target temp. Very much an issue. As mentioned I'd turn the fan back on and see if you are closer to target.
The unit is inefficient due to heating then cooling then heating etc. Real issue, but likely due to incorrect setup (due to lack of user manual). Only in the dead of winter do I need to use a heater, definitely not in October. Turn off the heating element, this will make it more efficient, and slow the temp cycling in the up direction.
The beer temp is fluctuating too much. I don't think we can address this until the above are correct. My gut says that you wont see wild fluctuations.


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## duncbrewer (20/10/21)

FWIW
ferment fridge, with a Fermentasaurus in, heat belt, brewpiless, probe on outside just under some insulation at the " stand height " on the FS and a probe measuring air temp. Supplementary Ispindel ( so floating higher than the beer temp probe is positioned ).
I see a tiny variance in beer temp during active ferment between the spindel and the beer probe ( at different heights). After ferment is over variance less than half a degree. I don't have a fan running all the time the only fan occurs when cooling is enabled and this is in the freezer compartment that ducts down into the fridge to add supplementary chilling. Picture of the fridge freezer and the hole that has duct from freezer fan connected to move the really cold air. The room is about 22 celsius today.





Brewpiless data the last several hours





Beer temp green line, Blue line Fridge temp, Beer set to 1 celsius is a red line but also has some orange line overlaying on it which is fridge set temp.
Blue blocks across bottom are the time the cooling is in action. The Ispindel only takes readings every half an hour but they have been between 0.44 celsius and 0.75 celsius across this time frame. So cooler beer nearer the cooled blast of cold air..
I'm pretty happy with this variance.


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## Stoichiometrist (20/10/21)

Thanks again Rodney. Heating disabled before starting this brew. 
Yep I was thinking of turning fan on full time and see what difference it makes. Although the fermentation is slowing down now so there be less heat generated now too - potential confounding factor.


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## Grmblz (20/10/21)

Stoichiometrist said:


> Question:
> 
> Do you think the comment made by WEAL in hisreply that was deleted was relevant to this thread and/or was meant to be inflammatory?
> _Given that he was answering a question put to him by someone from kl I would say yes to relevant, as to the wisdom of mentioning ongoing legal issues that's a different issue which he has acknowledged._
> ...



I currently operate 3 fermentation chambers, actually 4 if you include the cheese maker which like my egg incubators is humidity controlled as well as temp, so I have a reasonable idea of what does and doesn't work.
As you correctly surmised in #68 they are full of shiv, #30 and #35 are complete and utter nonsense, and cycling on and off almost constantly probably wont hurt the heater, but the compressor wont like it, and neither will your electricity bill, but I think you've already worked that out.
I understand that after buying into the whole "RAPT is great" thing, you are disappointed that it doesn't live up to your expectations, but it is what it is, and you can cut your losses and sell it while there's still a market for it (given the hype around the thing you could probably make a profit  then wait for V.2 or V.3, alternatively have a good read of page one of this thread, the information there will at least render it usable.


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## Stoichiometrist (20/10/21)

Grmblz said:


> I currently operate 3 fermentation chambers, actually 4 if you include the cheese maker which like my egg incubators is humidity controlled as well as temp, so I have a reasonable idea of what does and doesn't work.
> As you correctly surmised in #68 they are full of shiv, #30 and #35 are complete and utter nonsense, and cycling on and off almost constantly probably wont hurt the heater, but the compressor wont like it, and neither will your electricity bill, but I think you've already worked that out.
> I understand that after buying into the whole "RAPT is great" thing, you are disappointed that it doesn't live up to your expectations, but it is what it is, and you can cut your losses and sell it while there's still a market for it (given the hype around the thing you could probably make a profit  then wait for V.2 or V.3, alternatively have a good read of page one of this thread, the information there will at least render it usable.


Argh you might be right Grmblz. But I hope not.

Thanks duncbrewer. Nice set up.
I’ll post a pic of the latest graph when I can.


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## mynameisrodney (20/10/21)

Don't give up hope. Take another look at duncbrewer's post. He has a setup that he is pretty happy with, and there's a few important bits of useful info there:


His beer temp swing is only around half of his air temp swing. 
His graph is zoomed WAY in compared to yours. Check the cycle times and not just what the graph looks like. His is about 2h30m between compressor cycles. Yours looks to be ~1h45m from Oct 2-6 when cycling quick and ~3h after Oct 6 when you changed the hysteresis back to 2C. So you are in the same ballpark there.


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## wide eyed and legless (20/10/21)

Stoichiometrist said:


> Question:
> 
> Do you think the comment made by WEAL in hisreply that was deleted was relevant to this thread and/or was meant to be inflammatory?
> 
> ...


I agree with you, the comment I made is relevant, (to the stock situation) but deserving of its own thread.


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## duncbrewer (20/10/21)

Thanks @Stoichiometrist and @mynameisrodney 
Just to show it's fairly consistent and reminding me to go and put some finings in the Saison so it's ready for transfer at the weekend and I've got room for the next ferment.


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## Stoichiometrist (21/10/21)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I agree with you, the comment I made is relevant, (to the stock situation) but deserving of its own thread.


I am glad you agree that your comment was inflammatory.


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## usastman (25/10/21)

I started this thread. Since installing the probe and dusabling the fan. The temp has remained stable...fluctuates within 1 degree Fan periodically comes in my main concern oruginally when fan was on is the frudge appeared ti be working to hard ...and was concerned about power usage.
Since fan off and temp prob...stable....3 x brews down....and happy with purchase and that bought prior to price increases


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## plugmeister (26/10/21)

Received my new toy yesterday. Copped a small dent in transit  Setting up was a bit buggy, and I had to register a couple of times before it was recognised. The fan noise is *very* loud. Fan vibrations are coming from the mounting plate. I wonder if anyone has experienced this and if there is a known fix? Stabilising the thin sheet metal holding the fan makes it a lot quieter. I will free up a fermenter and get a brew going to give it a proper test now 




Your browser is not able to display this video.


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## Grmblz (26/10/21)

Can't complain about the quality control when there isn't any, that's just plain bs, but to be expected from a beta product.
An observation: that looks very much like a computer fan, I've played around with them a lot, and found they seem to be designed to run vertically, in other words when put on their side they crap out after about 12 months of continuous running. I'm talking about the double ball bearing ones not the sleeve type. I have no doubt that kl will come up with an implausible excuse/reason, the dent isn't their fault it's the couriers, so I'm guessing they'll go with "it was working fine until the couriers damaged it" utter crap of course but typical.
fwiw what you've got is just some resonance (that fan seems to be a bit out of balance) the fix is to pull it all apart, tighten all the screws, and use some rubber grommets on the fan mounting screws, I doubt you will be reimbursed for your efforts, just make sure whatever you do that you can easily get to the fan (don't glue the panel in place) because I've got a pound to a pinch of shit it'll be dead within 3 yrs, and that's not good value for a $900 insulated box with $20 of tech in it.


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## mynameisrodney (26/10/21)

Many PSUs have fans mounted horizontally. I actually just put one in today that did.


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## Grmblz (26/10/21)

Well there must be different designs, with bearings designed for horizontal mounting, let's hope the rapt has one such fan, because I have a box full of dead (ok not actually dead just really noisy) fans that were mounted horizontally in fermenting fridges, the strange thing is if you hold them vertically most of them run almost silently, I now use radial blowers, and no failures so far.


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## plugmeister (27/10/21)

Grmblz said:


> Well there must be different designs, with bearings designed for horizontal mounting, let's hope the rapt has one such fan, because I have a box full of dead (ok not actually dead just really noisy) fans that were mounted horizontally in fermenting fridges, the strange thing is if you hold them vertically most of them run almost silently, I now use radial blowers, and no failures so far.


Time will tell I guess. I'm more than happy to tinker, though will get some feedback from KL and also wait for the warranty period before I start customising things too much. Tightened all the screws but no change. I have some fan bits and grommets somewhere so will try that too.


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## plugmeister (4/11/21)

And it seems that a new fan shroud has been designed and will be shipped on arrival. During the meantime I've fixed the noise by reinforcing the current fan shroud with some tape. Also received a voucher to compensate for the shipping mishap. In the meantime I've used the fridge to cold crash my latest Kveik brews, so it's doing one of it's jobs. Will look to ferment a lager once the last cold crash is complete.


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## Grmblz (4/11/21)

plugmeister said:


> And it seems that a new fan shroud has been designed and will be shipped on arrival. During the meantime I've fixed the noise by reinforcing the current fan shroud with some tape. Also received a voucher to compensate for the shipping mishap. In the meantime I've used the fridge to cold crash my latest Kveik brews, so it's doing one of it's jobs. Will look to ferment a lager once the last cold crash is complete.


Mate, glad you got a result and good to see another kveik user here, if it wasn't so sad, and predictable it would be funny, a new fan shroud? so we are on the first shipment of a new product and already we've got a V1.1 upgrade, Oh ffs WHY? WHY can't they get their shit together and just do some real world testing before they release these things? The dent isn't their fault and good on em for the voucher (although it's pretty much industry standard)
kl (you know who you are) the next time your critical mind comes up with something, send one to a real human brewer, then listen to what he/she tells you, I know it will be hard for you because you are infallible, and wonderful, and brilliant, and a real little "know it all C" according to my LHBS that deals with you, but it would save a lot of grief for a lot of people, rant off.
Only joking, TEST YOUR PRODUCTS!
Honestly, you guys single handedly changed the face of home brewing here in Australia (when you were at KegKing) you bought affordable (cheap) gear to the masses, maybe not on par with the real gear but perfectly useable, what has happened since then? Why have you lost your way?


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