# Lagers - Pitching Cold With Dry Yeast



## ozpowell (19/8/08)

Hi Guys,

I've been wondering about this for a while and have been unable to find a definitive answer to date (either here or in any of the brewing literature I have).

When brewing lagers, I want to pitch my yeast into the wort after I have chilled the wort to fermentation temps (10 to 13 C). I understand that when using dried lager yeast it is best to rehydrate at around 24 C.

My question is, for those of you who pitch their rehydrated dried lager yeast into cooled wort - do you slowly chill the yeast slurry and then pitch, or do you dump the 24C slurry straight into the cooled wort? Wouldn't the latter risk shocking the yeast?

Thanks.


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## Screwtop (19/8/08)

ozpowell said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I've been wondering about this for a while and have been unable to find a definitive answer to date (either here or in any of the brewing literature I have).
> 
> ...




Only rehydrating not fermenting so I rehydrate cool then pitch, I have rehydrated at ambient then popped it into the fermentation fridge for few hrs to attemporate before pitching. You could probably sprinkle straight on top as long as you use enough dried yeast.

Screwy


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## SJW (19/8/08)

I have used dry yeast a lot in the past  and I just used to rehydrate with tap water, so I guess that was around 15 - 20 deg C, stir it up and let it sit for 5 or 10 mins, then I always used to pitch a little warmer, like at about 18 - 20 deg C then cool down to 10 or 12 over then next 24 hours. I found that it would take a bit longer than I liked to fire up if I pitched cold. But thats just me, I like to see the fermentation kick off ASAP, and there is no danger (IMO) of creating any off flavours during that first 14 or so hours during the yeast reproductive stage. Either way its just beer, it will be fine no matter what u do.

Steve


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## Ross (19/8/08)

I use a double satchet of lager yeast straight from the fridge & sprinkle on top of the 12c wort.
No rehydrating, no stirring, no aeration..... works great everytime  

cheers Ross


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## sumo (19/8/08)

Ross said:


> I use a double satchet of lager yeast straight from the fridge & sprinkle on top of the 12c wort.
> No rehydrating, no stirring, no aeration..... works great everytime
> 
> cheers Ross



+1 here. I find the yeast is old enough to know where it needs to go!


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## agraham (19/8/08)

I did this just the other day, 1 sachet 34/70 directly pitched into 10 degree wort in da frudge. Still waiting for the signs of krausen....


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## therook (19/8/08)

sumo said:


> +1 here. I find the yeast is old enough to know where it needs to go!



+2, pitched S189 at 11c and fermented at 11c with no D rest and have come out fine

Rook


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## SJW (19/8/08)

> I did this just the other day, 1 sachet 34/70 directly pitched into 10 degree wort in da frudge. Still waiting for the signs of krausen....



Don't hold your breath for it to kick off. Pitch more yeast ASAP. 37/70 (dry) has a history as a very slow starter epecially when pitched cold, I hate the stuff. Thats why I went to S-189 but now just do Liquid yeast. It must be easy if I can work it out + it ends up being cheaper.

Steve


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## tdh (19/8/08)

Rehydrate at the recommended temp (usually 35*C) then attemperate.

Because you need to attemperate it doesn't matter what temp you decided to rehydrate at and what temp your wort is at.

tdh


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## agraham (19/8/08)

Cheers Steve, I usually use liquid (wyeast 2308) however i wanted to give another yeast a try. Will take a look when i get home.


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## blackbock (19/8/08)

I'm with Ross on this one. It's not worth the effort to rehydrate dried yeast, and if you're pitching cold (which you should for Lager IMO) just use more than one sachet. That method will give you the least lag time and least chance of contamination. I have also dropped a lonely sachet into cold wort on many occasions with no problems, just takes a little longer to take off.


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## balconybrewer (19/8/08)

i have read and know that most people feel that you shouldnt make a starter with dried yeast, but what about in the case of a lager when you want a larger cell count.......?

can you make up say a 1lt starter?


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## blackbock (19/8/08)

ryanmoore184 said:


> i have read and know that most people feel that you shouldnt make a starter with dried yeast, but what about in the case of a lager when you want a larger cell count.......?
> 
> can you make up say a 1lt starter?



You could but you may actually be doing more harm than good to the yeast health.


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## balconybrewer (19/8/08)

ok, ill take your word for it but do you have the scientific reaoning behind it??


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## afromaiko (19/8/08)

agraham said:


> I did this just the other day, 1 sachet 34/70 directly pitched into 10 degree wort in da frudge. Still waiting for the signs of krausen....



Two packs of this pitched on Sunday arvo straight from the fridge and airlock was slowly bubbling the next morning. I don't remember buying it, so I reckon it had to be at least a year old but was always kept in the fridge.

EDIT: I always used to rehydrate and don't bother anymore, getting the same results either way.


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## jojai (19/8/08)

I never understood re-hydrating, wouldn't putting the yeast into the wort rehydrate it? (Considering the hydration takes all of 10 minutes, I doubt the yeast could do much harm if they are not hydrated before hand.)


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## haysie (19/8/08)

jojai said:


> I never understood re-hydrating, wouldn't putting the yeast into the wort rehydrate it? (Considering the hydration takes all of 10 minutes, I doubt the yeast could do much harm if they are not hydrated before hand.)



Good question...... one i have scratched the crewitt over many times. 

Palmer says " Usally the concentration of sugars in wort is so high that the yeast cannot draw enough water across the cell membranes to restart metabolism. Do not sprinkle onto the wort as manufacturers suggest. Dry yeast should be rehydrated in de-aareated water before pitching.

So he says, I rehydrate most times from cooled boiling water for no other reason than peace of mind the yeast is ok.

It probably depends a lot on what yeast we are pitching also. 04 vers 05, 23 vrs 34/70


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## redbeard (19/8/08)

I always re-hydrate my dry yeast. It kicks off big time when added to the wort. Also if the wort is aerated, then I'd rather pour the re-hyrdated yeast solution in than have the dry yeast sit on the foamy bits till it subsides ... 

cheers


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## blackbock (20/8/08)

ryanmoore184 said:


> ok, ill take your word for it but do you have the scientific reaoning behind it??



I can't quite find the perfect reference for you, but there is passing reference to depleting the yeast's food reserves at Jamil's Mr Malty site
and also in many earlier threads on AHB, including this one.


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## bconnery (20/8/08)

agraham said:


> I did this just the other day, 1 sachet 34/70 directly pitched into 10 degree wort in da frudge. Still waiting for the signs of krausen....


1 packet at 10 degrees would have the yeast pushing itself a bit to start. 
2 packets if pitching dry yeast cold and 1 packet if pitching warm seems to work best.


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## buttersd70 (20/8/08)

bconnery said:


> 1 packet at 10 degrees would have the yeast pushing itself a bit to start.
> 2 packets if pitching dry yeast cold and 1 packet if pitching warm seems to work best.


1 packet is underpitching, regardless, for this type of yeast. Pitch rates for 34/70 is 1g/L, ie 23g (2packs) for a 23 L batch. As per the fermentis data sheets.


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## ozpowell (20/8/08)

Thanks to all for the feedback.


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## SJW (20/8/08)

> 1 packet is underpitching, regardless, for this type of yeast. Pitch rates for 34/70 is 1g/L, ie 23g (2packs) for a 23 L batch. As per the fermentis data sheets.


Thats true.
But the fact is we are splitting hairs anyway. It's only beer at the end of the day. Re-hydrate, don't rehydrate, one pack of yest or two, facts are that it will still make beer in some format it all depends if you are happy with the results. I have done it both ways with one and two packs ..............................and I'm not going to loose any sleep over this issue. 
Just get the yeast in there and get it fermented so you can drink it.  

Steve


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## buttersd70 (20/8/08)

True what you are saying...first time I used this yeast, I underpitched unknowingly. My only issue with it was that, having ony pitched one pack, it was a bastard to get going. As far as flavour is concerned, it was excellent, and didn't seem to detract in any way. so it all worked out in the wash.  . But at the time as a lager newbie, the very slow start stressed me more than the yeast.


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## agraham (21/8/08)

Its has taken 2 days for the first sign of krausen after pitching 1 sachet into wort that was ambient 16 C, with the fermentor in the fridge.


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## agraham (22/8/08)

Just an update, the yeast took around 60 hours to fire up when pitched cold.


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## tdh (22/8/08)

Far out, how hard could it be to do the right thing by dried yeast???

I would never recommend not rehydrating. Claims about 'yeah, it works for me' are apocryphal and mean nothing.

Soon we'll have beermakers leaving the lid off the fermenter and waiting for a spontaneous ferment to kick off. "yeah, works for me and 20 brewers in Flanders"

Rehydration isn't there to create more either, it's needed to 'rehydrate', read - put the water back in that the manufacturer took out.

Pitching rate for a cold fermented beer (usually a lager) = 1g/litre of moderate strength wort


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## mfdes (22/8/08)

Hi Steve,

I disagree with you. Yes, it's all beer, but if you can, and it only takes a small amount of effort, or cost, would you not make the BEST beer you possibly can? I mean kit and kilo plus the kit yeast at 25 degrees is also, arguably beer, but I still spend a full day mashing, and make up starters over several days with a stir plate. My point is, you can learn, or teach you palate, to like almost anything... but with effort you can make a beer that most people would rather drink over commercial brands.
Rehydrating with 24 degree water is important in that you end up with (so I hear) about double the amount of viable yeast cells. The way I do it is by sprinkling the yeast on some cooled boiled water at 24 or 25 degrees (tepid) and let it cool down to ambient (1/2 an hour or so). I then pitch this into wort. You'll not really shock the yeast because it is not yet in active fermentation.
The reason sprinkling onto the wort results in lessened viability is that the cells suffer osmotic shock from the sugar concentration in wort. That is, the sugar concentration is only barely lower than the dissolved solids concentration inside a hydrated yeast cell, so the cells essentially have trouble sucking up water from the wort.
Finally, the rationale behind not making starters with dried yeast is that dried yeast should be at the optimal metabolic stage to begin fermentation (with maximum reserves of glycogen). The companies that make good dried yeast like Fermentis put a lot of effort into ensuring that this is so. If you make a starter, it would be almost imposible for you to replicate the conditions for optimal reserves and in any case your starter would need to be huge (like 12 liters), as there is already enough yeast to pitch in the packet. On the other hands, with liquid yeasts, they have normally been sitting in liquid for a while and their reserves are very depleted, viability low, etc... especially by the time they travel to Oz. In the case of liquid yeasts making a starter, especially a stirred or aerated starter, can make all the difference.
MFS.


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## Noxious (22/8/08)

Don't want to start an argument, especially with those who can't accept other methods exist.
But as this is a 'discussion' site I will add some notes from my experiences in brewing lagers with dry yeast (in the extract style).
I have been using 18L of water from the fridge along with the necessary hot/boiling water for grain/mixing and hops, bringing the wort temp to around 12-14C.
I have pitched both W-34/70 and S-23 at this temp range directly into aerated wort, one packet - 11.5gms (even though I have been told that 2 packets is optimal for this temp, $10?) and within 24-48 hours have an active wort, patience tested once but no noticeable problems. 
Only real worry for me was whether it would be able to bring the FG down to a nice 'dry' level, which is has. Not getting the 1006-1008 achieved with US-05 but nothing to worry about (considering the last 3 lagers have been just under 7%, attentuation has been great for one packet, IMO).

It all depends how worried you are about your brew. I pitched some S-23 yesterday and it will start by this afternoon with any luck.

Being told that this information is 'apocryphal' is inane in it's own right. 
Questioning someone's authority to write about their personal experiences, to me, is wrong. Humans have developed because of their ability to share ideas and visualise thought patterns which they themselves may not have conceived. 
Question your own motivations before questioning others.
Being a slap-happy brewer may result in an average brew but disregarding human experience results in ignorance, and we all understand where that leads..


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## mfdes (22/8/08)

I don't think 48h lag time is anything to worry about in a lager. I mean we're talking lager here not ale. We're actually aiming for a slow and steady fermentation to minimise all those esters and get a crisp clean lager profile. On top of this a wort at 10 degrees holds a hell of a lot more dissolved CO2 before you start seeing bubbles. Which means by the time you see bubbles you've probably had active fermentation for a while already.

I get over 24h lag times and usually just under 48h when pitching the correct number of yeast cells at 7 degrees. I allow the wort to naturally rise to 9 degrees in this period of time. You have to keep two things in mind: a lot less biological activity happens at 7-10 degrees than it does at 18-20. Contaminants like bacteria and wild yeasts take a lot longer to proliferate at these temperatures. Also you're making a lager. Things go more slowly. Have patience and be carefula bout sanitation. If your sanitation is good you have nothing to worry about. There is no excuse for sloppy sanitation IMO.


MFS


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## tdh (22/8/08)

The "she'll be right method" doesn't work for me.
The yeast manufacturer has done more research on their product than we ever will and to 'use the method my mate uses' is daft. You can quote me on 'daft' too, if you like.

tdh



Noxious said:


> Being told that this information is 'apocryphal' is inane in it's own right.
> Questioning someone's authority to write about their personal experiences, to me, is wrong. Humans have developed because of their ability to share ideas and visualise thought patterns which they themselves may not have conceived.
> Question your own motivations before questioning others.
> Being a slap-happy brewer may result in an average brew but disregarding human experience results in ignorance, and we all understand where that leads..


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## T.D. (22/8/08)

mfdes said:


> Finally, the rationale behind not making starters with dried yeast is that dried yeast should be at the optimal metabolic stage to begin fermentation (with maximum reserves of glycogen). The companies that make good dried yeast like Fermentis put a lot of effort into ensuring that this is so.



Hi mfdes, thanks for the info.

What's your opinion on repackaging yeast? Given that companies like Fermentis spend a lot of time getting the characteristics of their yeast correct at the time of packaging, would repackaging and the consequent exposure to the elements cause any issues for yeast viability? Or is it something that is not very important? I ask because I have read articles about how exposure to oxygen can dramatically reduce the life span and viability of dry yeast. Yet there is quite a lot on the market all the same.

I hope this isn't going off topic much but I thought it was worth asking as it may have implications for pitching rates etc.


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## Noxious (22/8/08)

I never recommended any "she'll be right method". Merely discussed the options available to the brewer. 
Pointing out that rehydration is not the only way to produce a malt drink with alcohol content.
I'm very happy with the results of pitching one dry pack directly into wort (attentuation, lag time, flavour etc).
My mates who brew, in general, don't take many precautions and end up with beers which they enjoy making and drinking.
I use more refined methods and don't employ a 'holier than thou' attitude when hearing their ideas and experiences.

Your correct about the yeast manufacturers having performed alot of research on these type of issues but when the producer themselves have conflicting information, one can hardly dismiss the need for a discussion.
Website says to rehydrate as you stated but the packets of Fermentis yeast I have been purchasing state to pitch directly into wort.

We all make beer, whether you like it or not people will make it differently than you.
If you don't want to hear about how others make their beer, wrong forum?
But I guess I'm just an extract brewing newbie, so disregard anything I say...oops, it looks like you already have.




tdh said:


> The "she'll be right method" doesn't work for me.
> The yeast manufacturer has done more research on their product than we ever will and to 'use the method my mate uses' is daft. You can quote me on 'daft' too, if you like.
> 
> tdh


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## tdh (22/8/08)

Yep.

tdh


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## Noxious (22/8/08)

Profound.


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## brettprevans (22/8/08)

bconnery said:


> 1 packet at 10 degrees would have the yeast pushing itself a bit to start.
> 2 packets if pitching dry yeast cold and 1 packet if pitching warm seems to work best.


+1

2 packs of dried yeast for lagers at ~10C always works for me.


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## mfdes (22/8/08)

I guess it depends how the yeast is repackaged. Dried yeast is inherently fairly stable, and only really suffers from oxidation in the long term. I don't think the viability drop is that much over time. 
Some retailers (you know who you are) just open a vacuum bulk pack of yeast straight from Fermentis and immediately repackage it into sachets under vacuum. This yeast, especially if kept refrigerated, should last for years.
My local homebrew shop, in contrast (I never shop there any more), just scoop a little into ziplocks or paper envelopes. For starters this is less than sanitary. For seconds it then sits on the shelf at room temperature for who knows how long. This yeast is probably about the lowest viability you're likely to come across. I can tell you most of it can still make good beer. It just goes to show you. 

I do notice that sometimes the yeast can come with contradictory information. If you look at the Fermentis website, you get very clear and detailed instructions on how to properly rehydrate this yeast. It is not hard to do. This method is employed by many commercial breweries (you'd be surprised how many commercials use dried yeast), and gives superb results. Repackaged yeast, and sometimes yeast packaged for the domestic consumer market (homebrewers) can come with simplified instructions. Much like a kit, the instructions are not on how to make the best beer you can, they're on how to be guaranteed you'll come up with something that will pass for beer and will not kill you.

I'm not saying pitching the dried yeast into the wort won't work. I am saying that following simple rehydration instructions will produce a strong, viable pitch that will likely ferment a cleaner lager at cold temperatures (without the need for starting warm), and finish at the correct gravity.

MFS.


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## PostModern (22/8/08)

Fixed the broken quotes in tdh's and Noxious's posts. The argument is interesting but all over the place when the quotes is broke.
(As a hint: for every "[ quote name='xxxx' date='Mmm dd yyyy, hh:mm AM' post='12345' ] there needs to be a "[ / quote ]" and it all works OK.)

I'm with tdh on this one. Yeast should be rehydrated in water then pitched. Sprinkling on the wort works, but proper rehydration is what works BEST. I'm not zealot tho. For some low grav beers, if I'm pitching enough yeast, I won't rehydrate, but I don't expect to be able to re-use the slurry with another direct pitch. It's my lazy-arse method for throwaway beers. For good beers, and generally for all lagers, I'll rehydrate.


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## warrenlw63 (22/8/08)

Not saying yay or nay but if sprinkling on the wort doesn't work why does Fermentis' literature and certain site sponsors freely advocate just sprinkling on the wort?

Maybe less misleading by people and manufacturer's would be in order then?

Either that or a site sponsor and multi national know less than certain forum members?

Warren -


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## agraham (22/8/08)

Oh no here it goes again 

I will let you guys know how the next brew that gets dumped on this yeast cake turns out, and how the current lager ferments out.


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## PostModern (22/8/08)

warrenlw63 said:


> Not saying yay or nay but if sprinkling on the wort doesn't work why does Fermentis' literature and certain site sponsors freely advocate just sprinkling on the wort?
> 
> Maybe less misleading by people and manufacturer's would be in order then?
> 
> ...



It obviously DOES work, as does (apparently) pitching 5g of kit yeast in a 23 litre brew. Neither practice is best practice, tho.


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## warrenlw63 (22/8/08)

No foot in either camp. Just like to see both sides of the story.  

Warren -


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## 0M39A (22/8/08)

mfdes said:


> My local homebrew shop, in contrast (I never shop there any more), just scoop a little into ziplocks or paper envelopes. For starters this is less than sanitary. For seconds it then sits on the shelf at room temperature for who knows how long. This yeast is probably about the lowest viability you're likely to come across. I can tell you most of it can still make good beer. It just goes to show you.



sorry, just had to have a little lol at that.

i used to use their yeast all the time, 1 pack for a 23L batch (and they are only 7g packs, not 11.5g fermentis ones!) and it always worked, but i was still rather naive (not that im still not in many regards) and didnt know much better.

nowdays i usually use 1x11.5g pack for a regular strength ale, 2 for a high grav.

as for lagers, ive only ever done 2, first one i used 1 11.5g pack, made a 2L starter and it fired off in no time. second one was straight onto the yeastcake of the previous.

looking back now, probably wasnt the best practice, and the 2nd one definatly tasted better than the first. could possibly be due to this fact, hard to say.


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## agraham (25/8/08)

Another update:

Beer has finished fermenting, taste is fine and will be transferring to secondary and then dumping a G&G wort kit i got on weekend on it.


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## DUANNE (2/1/11)

sorry to drag up an old thread but im about to put down 2 lagers side by side and will be using s-189 due to not having 2 stirplats to get 2 identical pitches. would best practice be to rehydrate and let the yeast cool and atemerise before pitching and running the risk of hurting the yeast holding it in plain water for to long or rehydrate for 30 mins and pitch into the cold wort risking cold shocking the yeast. hoping some one on here can shed some light on this one for me cause im cause im completely unsure of what to do.

thanks dwayne


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## DUANNE (3/1/11)

any ideas,anyone?


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## unrealeous (3/1/11)

If you are re-hydrating for 30 mins, place the container in your fermentation fridge and by the time you pitch it will be roughly the same temperature. I do this and it seems to work well.


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## DUANNE (3/1/11)

thanks unrealeous,I think thats how ill go about doing it. seems so obvious now that you mention it.


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## Bribie G (3/1/11)

If fermenting at say 10 - 12 degrees I'd be looking at using both sides of a repack of S-189 per brew - giving you 24g per brew. Still only about the price of a liquid yeast and I've found S-189 to be a relaible and trouble free yeast for saving brew-to-brew for a few generations so you get excellent value in the long run.


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## Nashmandu (3/1/11)

Very interesting discussion everyone! The way we treat the yeast - overpitching/underpitching, temperature shock, crash cooling, aeration etc- as we all no is important. However generally speaking there shouldnt be any/many adverse affects unless we are using the yeast across many generations and wanting the same results consistantly. The yeast will stay healthy and viable for much longer if we do everything to the letter..where I work at the moment we repitch up to 8 times and therefore need to be more careful..should be...


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## Bribie G (3/1/11)

Yes Nashmandu just reminded me when he mentioned underpitching, if you are using just 12g of yeast per brew, you could start the fermentation at 20 and then bring it down over 24 hours to lager fermenting temperature to ensure the yeast kicks off more robustly. With S-189 that shouldn't be a problem, and in fact many brewers use S-189 at ale temperatures and still get acceptable results, it's one of those very generous yeasts :icon_cheers: .


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## paulmclaren11 (31/7/13)

Just came across this thread as I am researching my next brew - a Boh Pils.

I have some S-189 I need to use before October - seems most have differing view on rehydrating. I plan to cool the wort to about 10 or 12c and then just sprinkle 2 packets of S-189 on top of the wort.

My question is do I need a D-rest with this method or just leave at 10-12c for a couple of weeks then keg?


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## Florian (31/7/13)

One way would be to sample the beer towards end of fermentation. if you detect Diacetyl, do the extra rest. if you don't detect it, either leave the rest or do it anyway just in case. 

I usually let my lagers go up to 16 for about three days, then slowly chill back down.


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## paulmclaren11 (31/7/13)

Good call, was planning on tasting as it went.

With cold pitching with 2 packets, what day of fermentation roughly would be the best for ramping up for a D-rest (eg day 4 or 5?) or should I be relying on hydro samples?


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## Florian (31/7/13)

Hard to say which day without getting into trouble with the best practice police.

Personally though i rarely take hydro samples these days and usually start ramping up roughly after a week, when there is hardly any Krausen left.

YMMV by far though, it depends on many factors how well your ferment progresses, so best to start of with hydro samples and bank the results as experience. 

And in case you're bottling, definitely hydro samples before bottling.


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## brente1982 (31/7/13)

Is there a general rule of thumb, if using hydro samples, when to do a D-rest??? And if say, im brewing one at 12 degrees now, what temp would i go up to, and then back down to???


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## Florian (31/7/13)

Generally about 2/3 to 3/4 into fermentation, or at about 1.020, depending on OG, FG and so on. 

As above, I go up to 16 for lagers, some go higher up to 18 or 19, your call. Maybe start a bit warmer to be safe and go from there for your next brews.

Back down to lagering or where ever you want it, generally as cold as your fridge can go without freezing the beer. You can rapid chill or go the best practice way if you're not in a hurry, 0.5 to 1 degree per day. 

As with anything brewing, experiment for yourself, take plenty of notes and compare results to find your best balance between mucking around and an enjoyable end result.


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