# Rims Or Herms



## mschippr (12/1/11)

I'm in the process of upgrading my rig to either RIMS or HERMS.

I can get a 1KW SS RIMS tube delivered for about $170 or a 40 foot SS Herms Coil to install in my HLT delivered for about $140.

Not sure which way to go on this either way i still need to also get a HLT, PID controller, and Pump also.

What do you guys think?


----------



## jbirbeck (12/1/11)

I love my RIMS...


----------



## raven19 (12/1/11)

Rooting Kings said:


> I love my RIMS...



+10.

In saying that is also comes down to how you plan on setting up the system.

Your thinking about coil in the HLT for the HERMS, this will reduce your number of vessels from 4 down to 3, with the RIMS its a 4th vessel that requires cleaning etc.

Just something to keep in mind.

A RIMS will need a PID (with SSR & Heatsink) - a bit more costly, compared to a HERMS which you can get away with a simple temp controller from evilbay or similar.

Drop me a PM if keen to check out my setup and ask any Q's mate.

Plus my RIMS thread is in my sig below.


----------



## MeLoveBeer (12/1/11)

Its a holden vs ford thing... both will do the job, but everyone will be 100% for or against based on their own experience.

I guess when weighing it up personally, it came down to responsiveness and accuracy (RIMS) versus slow safe increases in heat (HERMS). I figured that if the setup is right, then RIMS would give me the best possible result for only marginally more than I could build a HERMS for (and you can buy premanufactured RIMS tubes that are tried and tested for bugger all).


----------



## jbirbeck (12/1/11)

MeLoveBeer said:


> Its a holden vs ford thing... both will do the job, but everyone will be 100% for or against based on their own experience.
> 
> I guess when weighing it up personally, it came down to responsiveness and accuracy (RIMS) versus slow safe increases in heat (HERMS). I figured that if the setup is right, then RIMS would give me the best possible result for only marginally more than I could build a HERMS for (and you can buy premanufactured RIMS tubes that are tried and tested for bugger all).



+1...same reason for me. I thought about HERMS initially for the ease and lower cost, but seeing Rav's build I could see too many positives in the RIMS. I got my RIMS tube from stainless stuff and it rocks but there is also a place in the states that does a nice RIMS set up for cheap, esp given the current exchange rate.


----------



## MeLoveBeer (12/1/11)

Rooting Kings said:


> there is also a place in the states that does a nice RIMS set up for cheap, esp given the current exchange rate.



Yeh, thats where I got mine and its worth every cent (especially now that they supply the units with BSP fittings). For those interested, I got mine from www.brewershardware.com and could not recommend them enough.


----------



## raven19 (12/1/11)

I also like the slightly more complicated build of my RIMS, enjoyed the fabrication process and was a good reason to get some more tools for the man cave.


----------



## mschippr (12/1/11)

Yes, ive seen the RIMS tubes from stainless stuff and from brewershardware. Im leaning towards the brewershardware way for ease of cleaning though. I think the stainless stuff unit only has 1/4" inlet/outlets which seems rather small.

Last night i was thinking that if i went RIMS i could probably still stick with my 2 vessel setup (MLT, Kettle) and just incorporate it until i get my Electric KEG HLT up and running. That way all i would need is the RIMS tube, pump, and controller.

If i go HERMS i will need to get the Electric HLT up and running, with a coil, pump, and controller, Which is more initial outlay perhaps.

Decissions, decissions.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (12/1/11)

Slightly OT - if you do decide to go with a RIMS - i think that the 1KW unit is too small if step mashing is on your agenda. Fine for just maintaining temp, but i think your ramps would be too slow with only 1000W.

Small side note - someone mentioned extra expense involving a PID becquse you need an SSR and heatsink - but i manage to run my PID quite nicely on a mechanical relay from DSE that cost only $10. So the total purchase price for PID and relay was around $50 which is reasonably comparable to simple on off controllers.

I changed from HERMS to RIMS and find the RIMS more responsive and more accurate for step mashing but not really any better for straight up maintaining temperatures. And i think that there are HERMS configurations that would probably do just as well as the RIMS - but that they would be just as if not more expensive and complicated.

YMMV of course, its all home built stuff so my units might be nothing like the one you will build or buy.


----------



## Bribie G (12/1/11)

With my BIAB setup, even 2400w is a bit gutless for step mashing - I've got a hotplate that I've pressed into service to help out.


----------



## Filby (12/1/11)

Thirsty Boy, what element are you running?


----------



## Thirsty Boy (12/1/11)

I'm running an element re-purposed from an electric kettle. Same as the ones traditionally used in your stock standard bucket'o'death. I got a mate to manufacture a short fat rims tube to accomodate it. I believe it is a 2200W element. It is really too high a heat density for the job, and so i have to massage my technique a little at the start of brews to avoid coating the element with break material and getting burn on. Its also curly and a bit harder to clean after each brew - still only takes a minute or two though. i get ramp times at a little faster than 1C per minute for a single batch, and a bit slower than 1C per min for doubles.

I think the nice, long, smooth stainless element like the ones i have seen for sale about the place recently is just about ideal - 2200W, straight & cylindrical (which means you can minimise the gap between the element and the housing, which increases wort velocity at the heat exchange surface, which reduces the chance of burning and increases heat transfer efficiency, allowing a higher heat density element) i imagine that with this sort of element in a proper rims tube housing, the same pwer as mine would give even better ramp times and faster response, and burn on of break material would be significantly less of an issue.

TB


----------



## mschippr (12/1/11)

Thanks for the help guys.

Thirsty: What are these stainless elements you are speaking of?  Since i need to buy two elements (one if i got RIMS, and one for the HLT im building). Do you have a website or pic of one? I was going to get a 2.5KW for my HLT and was thinking of 1.5KW for the RIMS, but i could just get two 2.5KW units and call it done.

I was going to get my elements from "plumbing supply" (sent to a US address and diverted to OZ), the units they have look to be stainless but im not 100% sure. Ive sent them an email to let me know what they are made from.

http://www.plumbingsupply.com/elements.html

I guess the other thing i need to consider about the upgrade is how many amps total im going to need to draw to run the thing. from my calculations a 2.5KW element draws 10 amps. I have a 15 amp outlet where i brew but doesnt leave me much to play with especially if i have to run two elements, march pump, and controller.

Thanks,


----------



## Thirsty Boy (12/1/11)

Like these ones from craftbrewer






http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=3853

But i Know they are available from e-bay sometimes, other HB suppliers and perhaps even other AHB sponsors too.

TB


----------



## Banshee (12/1/11)

Hey peoples can you please list the breweries around the world which use either of these systems. Can you buy these professional systems premade for a micro brewery application?
I ask so I can have a look at their websites to see their systems so I may scale one down.
Cheers.


----------



## razz (12/1/11)

Probably easier to look at the sites of the companies that sell them Banshee. I know Dogfish head brewery have a Sabco system as a pilot brewery, that's the only one I know of. Grain n grape put out a HERMS and they also sell a braumeister system worth looking at.


----------



## unrealeous (12/1/11)

mschippr said:


> I think the stainless stuff unit only has 1/4" inlet/outlets which seems rather small.


Incorrect - they make to order. I had 1/2" BSP inlets put onto mine.


----------



## mschippr (12/1/11)

how do you guys find the stainless stuff rims tube? any problems or improvements that are needed?


----------



## unrealeous (12/1/11)

mschippr said:


> how do you guys find the stainless stuff rims tube? any problems or improvements that are needed?


They don't have a RIMS unit you can order off the shelf - they probably don't even know what that is - it's all custom built to your specification. Having said that a RIMS unit is really simple - just a tube with space for an element and a few inlets/outlets. It was really easy to get the thing built since I based my design off what Rooting kings just had made by them - but adjusted the length and removed once of the outlets. I just sent them a photo (see below) of his unit with my alterations - basically to suit the length of my element. US140 delivered to my door. 




What was delivered



After some insulation - the thermometer goes into the top


----------



## Thirsty Boy (13/1/11)

Banshee said:


> Hey peoples can you please list the breweries around the world which use either of these systems. Can you buy these professional systems premade for a micro brewery application?
> I ask so I can have a look at their websites to see their systems so I may scale one down.
> Cheers.



Commercial breweries?? Probably none, or at least none that are indesputably bigger than homebrew systems anyway. These sorts of systems are a homebrew alternative to a heated and stirred mash vessel - which is how commercial breweries do it.

Oh, now that i've said there aren't any - someone will probably post links to a few micros that do use herms or rims. But it will be incredibly rare. Its a homebrew sized and designed solution for homebrewers.

But you can buy a pre-made HERMS from more beer that does 20G (160L or so) at a batch, and thats bordering on a brewpub sized system.


----------



## jbirbeck (13/1/11)

unrealeous said:


> They don't have a RIMS unit you can order off the shelf - they probably don't even know what that is - it's all custom built to your specification. Having said that a RIMS unit is really simple - just a tube with space for an element and a few inlets/outlets. It was really easy to get the thing built since I based my design off what Rooting kings just had made by them - but adjusted the length and removed once of the outlets. I just sent them a photo (see below) of his unit with my alterations - basically to suit the length of my element. US140 delivered to my door.
> 
> View attachment 43267
> 
> ...



yep made to order. I wanted the extra BSP on there so I didn't need to buy a T piece. The 1 inch was for the element, and the three 1/2 inch were for the therm goingin into a compression fitting and the in and out. the in and out are the ones on the side for me.

I really like the way it works. I find it easy to clean. It gets a PBW run after the mash and Every couple of brews I'll remove the element for a good scrub and rinse out/brush out the inside of the tube. The standard bottle brush for wine bottles/long necks does it well. The element I picked up from a local place..I'll have to check where though. I have camlocks on the in and out.


----------



## raven19 (13/1/11)

mschippr said:


> I guess the other thing i need to consider about the upgrade is how many amps total im going to need to draw to run the thing. from my calculations a 2.5KW element draws 10 amps. I have a 15 amp outlet where i brew but doesnt leave me much to play with especially if i have to run two elements, march pump, and controller.



When you drop around to check out my system you can see how much power I draw when running, but essentially I have:
HLT - 10A
RIMS - 10A
Pump - minimal (0.3A - I have been told by others iirc, not sure on this figure though!)
Control Panel - minimal also
(Kettle - 10A & 15A immersion elements)

With the above I can get by easily with 2 standard power points up until the the boil.

I need a 10A and a 15A when getting the wort up to the boil.

Once I get a rolling boil though I tend to only use the 15A element in the kettle, everything else is switched off.

(I can also run the RIMS on a second batch whilst boiling the first with a 3rd 10A power source - if I am doing back to back brews).


----------



## MeLoveBeer (13/1/11)

raven19 said:


> With the above I can get by easily with 2 standard power points up until the the boil.



So is that 2 standard power points on 2 different 16A circuits Raven? I'm in the midst of organising a sparky to come in and rewire my shed to support my new system and are curious to see how much you can squeeze in.


----------



## raven19 (13/1/11)

My shed has a normal 10A feed throughout plus a separate 15A welding point, all with safety switches etc. It has not tripped the fuses once, been very happy with it. So yes I am certain it is 2 different circuits - forgive my ignorance though as I am not a sparky!

If I need a 3rd supply it comes from the house via extension cord (on a separate circuit again).


----------



## MeLoveBeer (13/1/11)

raven19 said:


> My shed has a normal 10A feed throughout plus a separate 15A welding point, all with safety switches etc. It has not tripped the fuses once, been very happy with it. So yes I am certain it is 2 different circuits - forgive my ignorance though as I am not a sparky!
> 
> If I need a 3rd supply it comes from the house via extension cord (on a separate circuit again).



Thanks Raven. I think I'll end up getting two 16A circuits allocated for the shed with two 15A points put in close to my brew rig. I'm pretty keen to do back to back brews (and my design supports it), but I'm lucky in that my boiler is gas.


----------



## jackson (13/1/11)

I'm new to AG and currently do Biab in an urn I have been running out of beer just too often. So its time to move to double batches, I could just go with a 70-80 l pot for Biab but then with the big pot and an urn I thought why not keep going to rims or herms. So if I were to use a keg as a mash tun is there any issue with installing a 2400w concealed crown element in the keg instead of using a RIMS tube.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (14/1/11)

You could maybe do it... False bottom over the top of an element, any element really because you need the falsie over it anyway, and then recirculate from under the falsie.... Pretty much like a Brutus 10 style system but with an electric element instead of a gas burner. In either case you have to recirculate.

Sound simpler than a rinms tube? - you could make it happen, but as i said in an earlier post, these things are homebrew solutions for homebrewers, and i think the reason that people dont do it the way you are suggesting, is because its probably easier and more effective to go with a rims or herms - if your idea was easier, it would be the standard. But, maybe people just haven't caught up yet. Wouldn't be the first time.

You could certainly make it work if thats the way you really want to go. I'd do some googling of Brutus 10 - thats the sort of thing i think you mean. I think there are even a few people out there who have made electric ones. You could also do much the same thing by having the pot sit on top of a perfectly normal electric stove type element... No need for any instalation then, you just bung a stock standard mash tun ontop of an element, add a pump and a controller.... And away you go. If it doesn't work.. Use the hotplate as a side plate for your BBQ and go back to plan A.


----------



## unrealeous (14/1/11)

Rooting Kings said:


> yep made to order. I wanted the extra BSP on there so I didn't need to buy a T piece.


Yours definitely looks pretty than mine


----------



## jackson (14/1/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> You could maybe do it... False bottom over the top of an element, any element really because you need the falsie over it anyway, and then recirculate from under the falsie.... Pretty much like a Brutus 10 style system but with an electric element instead of a gas burner. In either case you have to recirculate.
> 
> Sound simpler than a rinms tube? - you could make it happen, but as i said in an earlier post, these things are homebrew solutions for homebrewers, and i think the reason that people dont do it the way you are suggesting, is because its probably easier and more effective to go with a rims or herms - if your idea was easier, it would be the standard. But, maybe people just haven't caught up yet. Wouldn't be the first time.
> 
> You could certainly make it work if thats the way you really want to go. I'd do some googling of Brutus 10 - thats the sort of thing i think you mean. I think there are even a few people out there who have made electric ones. You could also do much the same thing by having the pot sit on top of a perfectly normal electric stove type element... No need for any instalation then, you just bung a stock standard mash tun ontop of an element, add a pump and a controller.... And away you go. If it doesn't work.. Use the hotplate as a side plate for your BBQ and go back to plan A.



Thanks Thristy Boy, I could not see any reason why it would not work so I made a start.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (15/1/11)

Snappy.

Tell you what, that looks the goods to me - put a stock standard domed false bottom over that, add a march pump and a PID and i think you're on a winner. I hereby withdraw any prervious scepticism - i reckon that might be an absolute cracker of an idea.

Top work.

TB


----------



## hockadays (16/1/11)

This looks good. Keen to see how you go. What seals the element into the bottom of the keg?


----------



## jackson (16/1/11)

hockadays said:


> This looks good. Keen to see how you go. What seals the element into the bottom of the keg?



The crown element comes standard with the seal and a boil dry switch for $60


----------



## jackson (16/1/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Snappy.
> 
> Tell you what, that looks the goods to me - put a stock standard domed false bottom over that, add a march pump and a PID and i think you're on a winner. I hereby withdraw any prervious scepticism - i reckon that might be an absolute cracker of an idea.
> 
> ...


Cheers Thristy Boy, PID & Pump ordered


----------



## hockadays (16/1/11)

When do you plan on using this? Please note down ramp times etc with volumes. I was just thinking about doing the same to get rid of my herms. The herms works well and I pretty much had a worry free brew day today but I think you could get better ramp times with this system. Maybe I'll use both. Keep the reports coming.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (17/1/11)

Did you buy the element from crown themselves?? I like this so much i might build one just for the hell of it, i've got all the bits but the element anyway.


----------



## mschippr (17/1/11)

Ok, so back to my original thread.  

I decided to go RIMS with a semi automation system upgrade which includes two new 50L vessels (HLT and Kettle). My existing kettle is being reassigned as MLT because my Beerbelly false bottom fits in it nicely.

I've ordered 2x 2500W elements, a tri clover RIMS tube and some sensors ready for the Brewtroller ill order a bit later which should be about $120. I still need to order my valves, weldless bulkheads, camlocks, etc which i will do in the middle of the week which should be about $200 also.

I am using a US mail forwarding company since im ordering from four US companies and getting them all consolidated for AU delivery.

I'll need to probably build a new stand also from galv i have laying around; Fun times. Im selling random stuff on ebay (non brewing related) to finance my project.


----------



## mxd (17/1/11)

keep the build photo's coming.


mschippr said:


> Ok, so back to my original thread.
> 
> I decided to go RIMS with a semi automation system upgrade which includes two new 50L vessels (HLT and Kettle). My existing kettle is being reassigned as MLT because my Beerbelly false bottom fits in it nicely.
> 
> ...


----------



## Amin (17/1/11)

How automated will it be?


----------



## mschippr (17/1/11)

I'm only thinking basic automation and monitoring at this stage, im still reading up on the brewtroller features. At the moment i would be happy with timer based startup of the HLT, auto temp and control of the pump/RIMS tube, and HLT. Technically brewtroller can automate the entire mash process but that requires presure sensors and solanoid valves, not really in my scope at this stage but can be added later if i choose.

My HLT will be electric, MLT/RIMS will be electric, and my Kettle is gas. I'm trying to keep everything 100% stainless if i can.

Thanks.


----------



## mschippr (18/1/11)

I've created a new thread on my build which is http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=730967


----------



## MarkBastard (18/1/11)

jackson said:


> Thanks Thristy Boy, I could not see any reason why it would not work so I made a start.
> View attachment 43314
> 
> View attachment 43315
> ...



That looks awesome.

Could you not BIAB in that?

Fill it up with water and use the element to heat the water to strike temps. Maybe an additional immersion element to make it quicker.
Put bag in, dough in, then constantly recirculate.
Lift bag and drain and use element in bottom + immersion element as a boiler.

Thirsty Boy may like to comment with regards to ramping to mashout temps without stirring.


----------



## MeLoveBeer (18/1/11)

I'd be curious as to whether or not the fact that grain does not move causes caramelisation (similar to a decoction). To some extent the constant recirculation of the wort should reduce the effect, but it'd be interesting to mash something like a pilsner or something and see what it does to the colour and body of the produced wort.


----------



## argon (18/1/11)

Mark^Bastard said:


> That looks awesome.



Yeah I agree that looks cool... been thinking of adding a herms or rims... but upgrading the mash tun with an element below the falsy looks like a good option. That way just adding a pump to recirc, PID and temp probe on mash outlet to control. Very nice, very simple.


----------



## beerbrewer76543 (18/1/11)

argon said:


> Yeah I agree that looks cool... been thinking of adding a herms or rims... but upgrading the mash tun with an element below the falsy looks like a good option. That way just adding a pump to recirc, PID and temp probe on mash outlet to control. Very nice, very simple.




This is what I am building... Must upload some pics!


----------



## jackson (18/1/11)

hockadays said:


> When do you plan on using this? Please note down ramp times etc with volumes. I was just thinking about doing the same to get rid of my herms. The herms works well and I pretty much had a worry free brew day today but I think you could get better ramp times with this system. Maybe I'll use both. Keep the reports coming.


I'm still about 2-3 weeks away ? will let you know the ramp times


----------



## jackson (18/1/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Did you buy the element from crown themselves?? I like this so much i might build one just for the hell of it, i've got all the bits but the element anyway.


No I got it from Tobins as Crown was closed for an extra week over xmas

http://www.tobins.com.au/HTML/ClassHTML/175.htm


----------



## MarkBastard (18/1/11)

jackson said:


> No I got it from Tobins as Crown was closed for an extra week over xmas
> 
> http://www.tobins.com.au/HTML/ClassHTML/175.htm



That's good to hear. A lot of people are worried their crown urn elements are going to die one day but if they're only $60 it's not the end of the world. Can almost consider it a consumable at that price.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (19/1/11)

jackson said:


> No I got it from Tobins as Crown was closed for an extra week over xmas
> 
> http://www.tobins.com.au/HTML/ClassHTML/175.htm



Thanks, i'll be ordering one of those in the next couple of days.

TB


----------



## jackson (21/1/11)

hockadays said:


> When do you plan on using this? Please note down ramp times etc with volumes. I was just thinking about doing the same to get rid of my herms. The herms works well and I pretty much had a worry free brew day today but I think you could get better ramp times with this system. Maybe I'll use both. Keep the reports coming.



Had a trial run with 30L of water. No grain & no pump so figures probably do not mean much. Temperature gain speed is certainly not impressive however its a Mash Tun not HLT or Kettle so I think it will do the job.

Time 0 = 28 temp
T 10 = 40
T 20 = 50
T 30 =59
T 40 = 68
T 50 = 76
T 55 = 80


----------



## hockadays (22/1/11)

Good stuff thanks for the repot. Are you going to biab or normal mash...


----------



## Thirsty Boy (22/1/11)

About a degree a minute - which is pretty normal for a RIMS or HERMS and plenty good enough. You might lose a little bit to the pump, hose and connections - but a little insulation on the tun and a lid on (not sure if you had it during the test) will give some of that back.


----------



## sim (22/1/11)

jackson said:


> Time 0 = 28 temp
> T 10 = 40
> T 20 = 50
> T 30 =59
> ...



Hey Jackson, was that the 2400w or 1500w concealed urn element you got? seriously keen on one for a herms thingy dingy.

sim


----------



## jackson (23/1/11)

hockadays said:


> Good stuff thanks for the repot. Are you going to biab or normal mash...


Normal Mash


----------



## jackson (23/1/11)

sim said:


> Hey Jackson, was that the 2400w or 1500w concealed urn element you got? seriously keen on one for a herms thingy dingy.
> 
> sim


2400w


----------



## jackson (23/1/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> About a degree a minute - which is pretty normal for a RIMS or HERMS and plenty good enough. You might lose a little bit to the pump, hose and connections - but a little insulation on the tun and a lid on (not sure if you had it during the test) will give some of that back.



No insulation yet,
I also tried using a 16amp temp controller (set with .5 deg temp tolerance & 1 min compressor time) to check the temp over shotting.

set to 66 deg temp 

1. reached 66 & over shot to 66.4
2. element restarted 49 min @ 65.4 over shot to 66.9
3. restart 40 min @ 65.5 over shot to 66.6
4. restart 31 [email protected] 65.3 over shot to 66.8
5. restart 23 min @ 65.4 over shot to 66.7
6 restart 14 min @ 66.4 over shot to 66.8

So I think with insulation on it should cut the restarts down to 3 per hour. What do you think about having the pump only recirculating when the element is on?


----------



## Thirsty Boy (23/1/11)

I'm not a fan of that - you will get all sorts of weird shit going on with the temp if the flow rate in the pump is too low - pulling heat from the bottom, dumping some of it back on top etc etc - and you will need the flow rate reasonably low if the pump is going to go on and off - or it will (might, probably will) pull the grain bed down onto the plate too hard and compact it, ruining your efficiency, sticking your mash and in this sort of system, probably burning the shit out of your grains.

But, it might not happen - worth testing out and pretty easy to test too.

The standard set up for a "brutus" system, which is pretty much what you have, is to recirculate constantly and measure your wort temperature as it exits the kettle directly off the element, tht way you are getting your temp at its maximum and can be sure things aren't overheating and screwing up your enzymes.

Constant re-circ is little effort to get set up in the first place, but once you have the knack of it, its no harder than having the re-circ kick in and out - and it has advantages in efficiency, wort clarity, heat distlrubution in the mash tun and therefore consistency and predicatbility.


----------



## jackson (23/1/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I'm not a fan of that - you will get all sorts of weird shit going on with the temp if the flow rate in the pump is too low - pulling heat from the bottom, dumping some of it back on top etc etc - and you will need the flow rate reasonably low if the pump is going to go on and off - or it will (might, probably will) pull the grain bed down onto the plate too hard and compact it, ruining your efficiency, sticking your mash and in this sort of system, probably burning the shit out of your grains.
> 
> But, it might not happen - worth testing out and pretty easy to test too.
> 
> ...



Thanks Thirsty constant recirculating it is much appreciated


----------



## hockadays (23/1/11)

That ramp rate is good. With 2200W herms I get about a degree a minute but then you have to still run the rest of the mash through as well so the body of the mash lags by about 5 to 10 mins. It would be good if they made a 3000W one of these at this stage I can only see a 2400W one on the website. The final test will be to see if you get any scorching with the domed false bottom.. I agree with the constant recirc as well. Would be much easier and more stable for the PID to work with..


----------



## grimpanda (24/1/11)

Really like your setup Jackson - very neat solution. I've been looking for a way to implement HERMS into my system mainly for the purpose of maintaining single-step mashes (on my 6th AG brew and yet to delve into step-mashing). Not having a seperate vessel & additional fittings etc to keep clean is a big plus in my mind also.

Would be interested to know if you notice any additional caramelisation/burnt character with grain potentially getting through the falsie and sitting on the element. Whenever I empty my mashtun I'm always surprised by the amount of grain sitting underneath it, although I can't be sure how much of this is from it getting bumped around when scooping out the spent grain.


----------



## hockadays (24/1/11)

Jackson also noticed from the photo with the false bottom that you may be using silicon tubing from the false bottom to the tap. If this is correct you might get grain underneath and stuck onto the element. I would look at hardening this up if I was you with either copper or stainless pipe.


----------



## jackson (24/1/11)

Gabe said:


> Really like your setup Jackson - very neat solution. I've been looking for a way to implement HERMS into my system mainly for the purpose of maintaining single-step mashes (on my 6th AG brew and yet to delve into step-mashing). Not having a seperate vessel & additional fittings etc to keep clean is a big plus in my mind also.
> 
> Would be interested to know if you notice any additional caramelisation/burnt character with grain potentially getting through the falsie and sitting on the element. Whenever I empty my mashtun I'm always surprised by the amount of grain sitting underneath it, although I can't be sure how much of this is from it getting bumped around when scooping out the spent grain.


Thanks Gabe, I will post once I have tried it out & let you know if caramelisation/burnt is an issue. Maybe I should try a porter so I don't get disappointed


----------



## jackson (24/1/11)

hockadays said:


> Jackson also noticed from the photo with the false bottom that you may be using silicon tubing from the false bottom to the tap. If this is correct you might get grain underneath and stuck onto the element. I would look at hardening this up if I was you with either copper or stainless pipe.



Cheers I will take that on board, I have only ever done Biab in the past so all these tips are appreciated


----------



## egolds77 (25/1/11)

The key to a HERMS is to have an external heat exchange unit (the smallest pot/vessel with 2400W element with as much copper tubing in as you can stuff). 
This is only if you are intending on doing fast temperature ramping, this also controls the temperature control better due to faster response times. 
I have about 5.5m of copper tubing in a 9L pot with 2200W element in it and get about 2 degrees C in 3 mins. The temperature control during the Mash is excellant, only varying about 0.2 degrees C using a BCS-460 controlling the system.

I went with a HERMS for safety reasons, i.e. stuck mash resulting in burnt/sourched Wort and/or burnt out element if not caught in time.

I don't do too many temperature ramping mash profiles, mostly just a straight infusion with excellant stable temp control.


----------



## grimpanda (26/1/11)

hockadays said:


> Jackson also noticed from the photo with the false bottom that you may be using silicon tubing from the false bottom to the tap. If this is correct you might get grain underneath and stuck onto the element. I would look at hardening this up if I was you with either copper or stainless pipe.



I can attest to this also. I'm using the same setup (silicone hose to 1/2" barb threaded onto the mash tun outlet). I initially had issues with stuck mashes, but discovered this was actually from being a little too vigorous with my stirring and actually rotating the false bottom, causing the silicone tubing to kink.

I like the ease of removal and cleaning of the silicone so I stuck with it - it just requires that you have your brew assistant press the false bottom down using a long-handled spoon or similar when you mash in to prevent it from floating and grain getting underneath. Once the grain has absorbed some water and starts sinking you shouldn't have any problems. When stirring just be aware of knocking the falsie around or catching the tubing - and always triple-check your hose clamps as it really sucks scooping out your entire mash to reconnect things 

Gabe


----------



## gregs (13/2/11)

jackson said:


> Thanks Thristy Boy, I could not see any reason why it would not work so I made a start.
> View attachment 43314
> 
> View attachment 43315
> ...




Hows this build going?


----------



## hockadays (13/2/11)

Yes i too am waiting results before i cut into my mash tun that has had a 100 clams of sanitary welding done on it..


----------



## jackson (13/2/11)

Unfortunately I'm still waiting on parts before I can give it a run. I'm thinking I should be ok for next weekend.
Since last post I have added the following

- HLT Tap
- Ss brew bench
- Twin 2200w elements to kettle
- Sight glass to kettle
- Kettle tap
- Sight glass/Temp to Mash Tun
- Mash Tun return
- Received pump
- Received & set up monster mash hopper (copied from Thirsty Boy's)


----------



## grimpanda (16/2/11)

Looking good Jackson. What size & brand is your kettle? I'm looking to step up to do full boil of a double batch (currently boiling 40L and topping up at the end)


----------



## Malted (16/2/11)

Hi I am new to the forum. Are RIMS and HERMS perverted things or diseases?  






I'd say disease, that I am likely to catch one day!


----------



## stux (16/2/11)

jackson said:


> Thanks Thristy Boy, I could not see any reason why it would not work so I made a start.
> View attachment 43314
> 
> View attachment 43315
> ...



Mmmm, custom urns for brewing 

Yummy


----------



## jackson (16/2/11)

Gabe said:


> Looking good Jackson. What size & brand is your kettle? I'm looking to step up to do full boil of a double batch (currently boiling 40L and topping up at the end)


Hi Gabe, It's ss 71l ebay job. Double batches were the reason for upgrading as well. AG can take up most of my day to do, so I should be able to now brew once a month for my 2 keg a month habit.


----------



## jackson (16/2/11)

The last of my parts for the new system arrived yesterday so I had to take the day off & test it out. I brewed a single batch of Nelson Sauvin and all went perfect except for the twin element kettle which boiled off 3 litres more then calculated. I think in future I would just use one element for single batches. Overall I was very happy with the set up and the electric crown urn element in the mash tune worked very well with no signs of caramelisation although the truth will be in about 3 weeks when the beer is on tap.


----------



## QldKev (16/2/11)

Malted said:


> Hi I am new to the forum. Are RIMS and HERMS perverted things or diseases?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I remember when Henno got HERMS, I believe he got a cream for it!  

QldKev


----------



## QldKev (16/2/11)

jackson said:


> The last of my parts for the new system arrived yesterday so I had to take the day off & test it out. I brewed a single batch of Nelson Sauvin and all went perfect except for the twin element kettle which boiled off 3 litres more then calculated. I think in future I would just use one element for single batches. Overall I was very happy with the set up and the electric crown urn element in the mash tune worked very well with no signs of caramelisation although the truth will be in about 3 weeks when the beer is on tap.
> 
> <snip removed pics>




Lets us know how you went; I've already purchased a concealed element ready for mine  

QldKev


----------



## grimpanda (18/2/11)

jackson said:


> The last of my parts for the new system arrived yesterday so I had to take the day off & test it out. I brewed a single batch of Nelson Sauvin and all went perfect except for the twin element kettle which boiled off 3 litres more then calculated. I think in future I would just use one element for single batches. Overall I was very happy with the set up and the electric crown urn element in the mash tune worked very well with no signs of caramelisation although the truth will be in about 3 weeks when the beer is on tap.



Looks good Jackson.

Is that a T-peice coming off your mash tun for the temp probe? Is it long enough to house the full length of the probe and clear the ball valve, or did you ahve to get a shorter probe?


----------



## jackson (18/2/11)

Yes it's a quick connect T piece with a 100mm thermal well for my temp prob. it misses the ball in the tap by about 15 mm. The temp prob via the controller switches the mash tun's element on and off when required


----------



## grimpanda (18/2/11)

jackson said:


> Yes it's a quick connect T piece with a 100mm thermal well for my temp prob. it misses the ball in the tap by about 15 mm. The temp prob via the controller switches the mash tun's element on and off when required



Quick connect t-peice you say - would that be just a regular female thread T-peice with a female camlock on the inlet and male on the outlet for your hose?


----------



## jackson (20/2/11)

Gabe said:


> Quick connect t-peice you say - would that be just a regular female thread T-peice with a female camlock on the inlet and male on the outlet for your hose?
> [/quote
> 
> yep here you go
> ...


----------



## grimpanda (21/2/11)

jackson said:


> Gabe said:
> 
> 
> > Quick connect t-peice you say - would that be just a regular female thread T-peice with a female camlock on the inlet and male on the outlet for your hose?
> ...



Awesome. Thanks for the pics. 

Look forward to hearing how the brew turned out - i'm pretty close to pulling the trigger on one of those elements!


----------



## jackson (25/2/11)

I brewed a double batch the other day all went well except I was not happy with the time it took to raise the grain from 65 deg to 77 for mash out. The actual wort only took 5-10 min to reach 77 deg however the 10 Kg of grain took 35 min to catch up even when stirring on occasion. The pump was only at about 1/2 tap open, I'm sure the temperature would increase a lot quicker if the tap was fully opened. However that would probably cause a stuck sparg.
I'm not sure if I should worry about the grain temp for mash out or just the wort temperature?
With herms or rims systems how long does the step up in temperatures normally take?


----------



## razz (25/2/11)

It depends on your system jackson, most brewers talk about 1 degree rise per minute or thereabouts. I just knocked out an 11 kg batch and the rise time on the mash from sach rest to mashout (64-76 degrees) took 30 mins and that was going by the manifold temp on the outflow of the herms coil. I don't stir after dough in, I don't think there is any advantage.


----------



## hsb (25/2/11)

Anyone just using silicon hose for Mash return? Is it working OK? 
Was just going to coil some down on top of grain bed or onto a saucer if necessary. Wanted to avoid another piece of kit for now.


----------



## razz (25/2/11)

Depending on the flow rate the wort may channel into the grain bed hsb, a very slow flow may do little. It's pretty easy to make something disposable like a dish made from alfoil or a foil BBQ tray with holes in it.


----------



## jackson (25/2/11)

razz said:


> It depends on your system jackson, most brewers talk about 1 degree rise per minute or thereabouts. I just knocked out an 11 kg batch and the rise time on the mash from sach rest to mashout (64-76 degrees) took 30 mins and that was going by the manifold temp on the outflow of the herms coil. I don't stir after dough in, I don't think there is any advantage.


Cheers Razz, I have recently upgraded from Biab and my new system is basically an a electric version of Brutus 10 . I have only used it twice so far and I guess 35 min's is a non issue. Probably very acceptable. My temp is taken from the outlet of the mash tun as the element in the bottom of the tun. Plus I have a temp gauge in the tun itself. 
Have you tested the temp of the actual grain bed once your mainfold temp has reached temp?


----------



## hsb (25/2/11)

Thanks razz - channelling was my worry, a foil BBQ tray sounds perfect, just wanted to avoid some kind of manifold as it seems like overkill for my needs. I'll give it a go.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (26/2/11)

Jackson,

Work on getting your flow rates as high as they will go without giving you stuck mashes - you can get the march nearly all the way open if you do it right, and that will help with ramp times and with accuracy and stability in the system.

You need to start off your re-circulation slowly, so during your first rest, before you want to ramp anything, get it flowing and re-circing nice and slowly, then just tweak the tap open bit by bit over 5 minutes or so till things are flowing faster. This will get your grain bed set, but wont "shock" it so to speak and suck it down onto the plates. You might have to push it to the point of failure a time or two before you learn where it starts to not work anymore though.

The other thing that may help you and generally does help in re-circulating systems, is to have a fairly high liquour to grist ratio - i never have less than 3:1 in my RIMS and often getting close to 4:1. A bit more liquid means your grain bed has a bit more depth to float in and keeps it looser. And i always throw in a couple of handsful of rice hulls to keep things nice and fluffy and loose - probably dont need them in my new mash tun, but i did in my old one and cant shake the habit.

I dont worry about the actual mash tun temp anymore - i work off the wort temp, but the tun temp lags behind a bit. Your system is only based around a reasonably small element - i would expect it to be about a degree per minute for a single sized batch, but naturally it is going to be much slower for larger batches, increased flow rates will help spread the heat faster - but wont help with shoving it in any faster.

A re-circing system is a thing that needs to be learned... Give it a few brews to get a handle on how your particular one works. I really hope it does end up working well for you, i love the design.

TB


----------



## hockadays (26/2/11)

Insulate that mash tun and I think you reduce the lag times as well.


----------



## jackson (27/2/11)

Thanks Thirsty, I took your advice and had a great result with my temp ramp time. I brewed a double batch of lcpa 10 kgs of grain to 35 litres and added some rice hulls, after the mash I was able to crank the marsh pump to a good flow rate that had the temp go from 64 to 77 deg in 20 min. The tun outlet temp did not reach 77 deg until about the 17 min mark and the actual tun temp caught up about 3 min later. So I would think that the flow rate was about spot on. The picture bellow shows the element after the mash out and it was very easy to clean with no signs of burning.





I also insulated as hockaday sujested


----------



## Thirsty Boy (27/2/11)

Thats a pretty good ramp rate for a double batch - well i reckon so because its as good as or better than i'd get for that size mash. Nice and efficient at heat transfer that in tun element, and any waste heat goes into the mash anyway.

That level of insulation will certainly help - but be on the lookout for overshoot - a really well insulated system doesn't allow for any heat to escape, so if your system drives the temp to high thats where it will stay. It probably wont be an issue, but its something to keep an eye out for.

Very very nice. Well done.

TB


----------



## KillerRx4 (27/3/11)

Jackson, love the concept. Could use some help with mine. Ive been upgrading my setup & incorporated this design in my mash tun after seeing yours.

Yesterday was the 1st run & it failed miserably. Element burned out within a few degrees of the 1st ramp. 

I suspect I need to crush coarser, use some rice hulls, & maybe need a different style false bottom. Mine is flat & very little space under the falsie now the element is installed.

What style of false bottom are you using in your tun?

A couple of pics of my failed attempt.


----------



## QldKev (27/3/11)

KillerRx4 said:


> Jackson, love the concept. Could use some help with mine. Ive been upgrading my setup & incorporated this design in my mash tun after seeing yours.
> 
> Yesterday was the 1st run & it failed miserably. Element burned out within a few degrees of the 1st ramp.
> 
> ...




A couple of question?
Why don't you have the boil dry protection connected, it may have saved the element
Where are you measuring the temp of the wort from? I though before the element would burn out the wort above it would have far exceeded 78c

QldKev


----------



## KillerRx4 (27/3/11)

I didnt expect to come near boiling point so didn't think it necessary. Will wire up through it when i replace it.

Wort is measured at tun outlet, was stepping from 40 to 69, PID displaying 44 when it burned out. Although recirc was pretty slow rate so may well have been well exceeding that at element surface.


----------



## QldKev (27/3/11)

Sorry for the hundred question, I'm interested in setting the exact same thing up.

Do you think if you pushed the temp pickup / thermistor into the pickup tube it would get a reading of the temp directly above the element, and hopefully eliminate this issue?

QldKev


----------



## speedie (27/3/11)

you diy electicians should diffinatley be using earth leakage stuff your health is far more important than any brew quipment :icon_cheers:


----------



## Yob (27/3/11)

speedie said:


> you diy electicians should diffinatley be using earth leakage stuff your health is far more important than any brew quipment :icon_cheers:



totally earthed


----------



## KillerRx4 (27/3/11)

QldKev said:


> Sorry for the hundred question, I'm interested in setting the exact same thing up.
> 
> Do you think if you pushed the temp pickup / thermistor into the pickup tube it would get a reading of the temp directly above the element, and hopefully eliminate this issue?
> 
> QldKev



I would expect to get the same reading in the pickup tube as at outlet. Perhaps have the RTD in the space under the false bottom would be a better solution.


----------



## KillerRx4 (27/3/11)

speedie said:


> you diy electicians should diffinatley be using earth leakage stuff your health is far more important than any brew quipment :icon_cheers:



The RCD should have me covered if for some reason I grab a live terminal. But I think if its live the heat given off the element would be enough to deter touching anything near it.


----------



## hsb (27/3/11)

I think the issue is more that an unearthed element 'could' make the whole vessel live and the stand too if metal but earth/RCD sounds good.


----------



## jackson (28/3/11)

KillerRx4 said:


> Jackson, love the concept. Could use some help with mine. Ive been upgrading my setup & incorporated this design in my mash tun after seeing yours.
> 
> Yesterday was the 1st run & it failed miserably. Element burned out within a few degrees of the 1st ramp.
> 
> ...



Hi KillaRx4, sorry to hear about the failed 1st run. In my set up the temp prob is read from the mash tune outlet so if I got a stuck sparge I think the temp would certainly get away from me if I did not catch it in time. The thermal overload would save the day for the element but the wort would cop a hiding. I guess to overcome the issue you could locate the temp prob under the falsey if there was enough room. However I think a the optimum temp reading point when recirculating would be where it is now.
I had a couple of stuck or slow sparges on my first run however the marsh pump seems to make a rattle noise if its not happy with the flow rate. So the noise was a great indicator that I had an issue plus it's pretty easy to monitor the flow with clear tubes and having the wort return above the water line. I also have an indicator LED mounted in the tun that is great for monitoring when the element is on or off.

I think more space under the false bottom would be a good thing. I use the Craftbrewers 12 inch dome false bottom.

http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=926

In last few brews I have had no issue with stuck sparge now that I have the hang of the flow rate of the pump.


----------



## KillerRx4 (29/3/11)

Thanks mate. 
I'll go grab a domed false bottom & some rice hulls. 

It would be easy enough to mount the RTD probe under the false bottom, I'm thinking this might be the better position.


----------

