# shiraz concentrate for sour beer



## DUANNE (9/9/16)

has any body tried using any of this in a sour beer?
http://www.ibrew.com.au/collections/grape-concentrates
i was thinking of adding one litre of the Shiraz concentrate into a sour based on the rare barrels golden recipe im fermenting atm on yeast bays melange yeast.


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## timmi9191 (9/9/16)

Why not use a bottle of shiraz.


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## DUANNE (9/9/16)

couple of reasons for that. with a fermented wine i would need several bottles which for anything decent is going to cost too much, i dont want to have all the sulphites in my beer and the biggest would be that after brewing the beer and sitting on it i want to have my beers fermentation character not whatever ferment character has already been set by the wine maker. i could go down the street and buy a bottle of shiraz and a bottle of whatever gueze is availble and blend them but thats not homebrewing.


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## luggy (9/9/16)

It might help to specifically state what you're teying to achieve with the beer, a little shiraz character or a sour/shiraz hybrid flavour wise.


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## timmi9191 (9/9/16)

interesting..

just my $0.02 but that would mean youre not actually adding a shiraz character as youre adding grape juice.
Grapes naturally contain sulphite so I dont think that is a reason to not go with a bottle.
As Luggy says depends what youre desired outcome is I guess..


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## DUANNE (9/9/16)

i spose in a perfect world i would be aiming for something along the lines of cantillon st lamnivus. seeing as shiraz is the variety of grape how would adding a shiraz grape juice concentrate made for producing shiraz wine not going to add any shiraz character? unless im missing something obvious.


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## timmi9191 (9/9/16)

grape juice to wine is like comparing un-fermented wort to beer..

Having some experience with using shiraz in a beer to add a specific character, using the wine is fine.

However being that you want something more of a wine beer, grape juice is probably the way to go I guess. Id be checking things like whether its free of wild yeasts and its ph etc.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (9/9/16)

timmi9191 said:


> Grapes naturally contain sulphite


That's simply not true. Most yeasts produce low levels of SO2 during ferment, that's another issue.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (9/9/16)

BEERHOG said:


> how would adding a shiraz grape juice concentrate made for producing shiraz wine not going to add any shiraz character? unless im missing something obvious.


The thing that you are missing is that red wine is produced by fermenting on skins. If you ferment Shiraz juice you get rose.


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## DUANNE (9/9/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> The thing that you are missing is that red wine is produced by fermenting on skins. If you ferment Shiraz juice you get rose.


ha ha yeah i get that but im unsure whether or not the juice has had anything added or done too make up for the colour and tannin structure . i presume so seeing as its being sold to make shiraz from but really have nfi. thats why i started the thread in case anyone had used it before and could enlighten me. if i do require seperate grapeskins i will probably skip it and wait for the grape havest next year and use whole fruit.


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## manticle (9/9/16)

Barrel ageing might be an option.


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## timmi9191 (9/9/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> That's simply not true. Most yeasts produce low levels of SO2 during ferment, that's another issue.


I agree, fermentation produces SO2, but you are you confusing sulfar dioxide with sulphites? 

Grape juice DOES contain sulphites!


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## paulyman (9/9/16)

Man I need to get hold of some different Cantillion bottles. I just looked this up, sounds awesome. I can see why you want the concentrate and not a fermented Shiraz, although I think that would work beautifully as a different sour to the one you intend here. If the concentrate is of the standard of most the LME I've ever bought I'd be happy to use it. 

I'd maybe be tempted to try it in another quicker turn around beer/sour to assess that though, given you'd want it in this one for months right? Your lambic will sit happily in the fermenter while you assess the quality.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (9/9/16)

timmi9191 said:


> I agree, fermentation produces SO2, but you are you confusing sulfar dioxide with sulphites?
> 
> Grape juice DOES contain sulphites!


 Sulphite is the general term for the form taken by SO2 in solution*. At normal pH most of it is present as sulphites, to get more than 10% of it to be present as molecular SO2 the pH needs to below 2.83, at which point wine tastes like battery acid.

There are no sulphites in grape juice unless it has been added.

PMS is usually added into the harvest bin as a precaution against oxidation, so grape juice as processed does indeed usually have sulphites but they are exogenous. If there has been no field addition (common with sparkle base and Pig) nor juice addition during processing there are no sulphites.

Trust me on this, I've done the analysis literally hundreds of times.

* SO2 when dissolved in H20 becomes H2S03, at normal pH both the H+ dissociate leaving SO3 2- , known as sulphite.


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## DUANNE (9/9/16)

manticle said:


> Barrel ageing might be an option.


as much as id love to have a couple of barrels to play with the missus would pack up and leave if i try and jam anymore brewing equipment in the house.


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## timmi9191 (9/9/16)

Sulphite is not a general term at all. It is a very specific term used to define compounds that contain the sulphite ion so32-. not so2 which is sulphur dioxide.

Sulphites occur naturally in many foods, including grapes.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (9/9/16)

I just explained how SO2, when dissolved, becomes sulphite (SO32-)

What part of this needs more explanation?

I also explained that the sulphite in grape juice is there because it was added.


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## huez (9/9/16)

Sulphites occur naturally in grapes. They also add sulphites to wine. You're both right, yay....

Brewhog how about some ex wine barrel staves or soaking some oak chips in some shiraz and adding them? the cantillon beer you're trying to copy sounds amazing so i reckon go for it on any of the options and report back.


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## timmi9191 (9/9/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> I just explained how SO2, when dissolved, becomes sulphite (SO32-)
> 
> What part of this needs more explanation?
> 
> I also explained that the sulphite in grape juice is there because it was added.


And..

SO2 is not a sulphite what part of that needs more explanation?

I also explained sulphites occurs naturally in grapes.

So whose is bigger??


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## huez (9/9/16)

You also dont get rose from just fermenting shiraz juice, they let it sit in the skins for a few days to pick up the colour. Or they blend it. 

How this helps the original question i'll never know......


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (9/9/16)

huez said:


> You also dont get rose from just fermenting shiraz juice, they let it sit in the skins for a few days to pick up the colour.


Juice with skin contact is still juice, it's just pink (or dull reddy brown if you didn't add sulphite)

Skin contact is usually a few hours, not a few days. We generally go for about 6 hours. If you leave it too long it picks up phenolics and the risk of it ticking in the settling tank or in transport becomes too great (a fair proportion of the Shiraz juice we prep is for other wineries).


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## drsmurto (9/9/16)

timmi9191 said:


> And..
> 
> SO2 is not a sulphite what part of that needs more explanation?
> 
> ...


News to me. There is sulfate in juice but I'm not aware of any sulfite. Sulfur chemistry of wine is what i do. Sulfite in the form of PMS is added to grapes in the picking bins in most vineyards so it's there from the start but that's added, not naturally occurring. 

I'm always up for new evidence so if you have some that can show sulfite is naturally occurring in grapes that would be very interesting. It would have significant ramifications on my research and since we're currently writing funding applications, new information in this area is very useful.


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