# No Chill Hop Utilization



## Paul H (28/2/09)

Ok well it seems after tasting some beer from Browndog & BribieG beer can be made using the no chill method without killing anybody.  

That being said before moving to the dark side I would like to know a little more about calculating hop utilization for bitterness & the effect no chill has on flavour & aroma.

Any information would be appreciated.

Cheers

Paul


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## buttersd70 (28/2/09)

Paul H said:


> Ok well it seems after tasting some beer from Browndog & BribieG beer can be made using the no chill method without killing anybody.
> 
> That being said before moving to the dark side I would like to know a little more about calculating hop utilization for bitterness & the effect no chill has on flavour & aroma.
> 
> ...



as far as flavour, I've noticed no difference. Aroma is somewhat subdued, though.
As far as bitterness.....well, theres a debate on that one. objectively speaking;

on the blue team.....there are those that think that adjustment needs to be made to hop additions to compensate for an increase in bitterness due to the extended time at high temperature.

on the red team.....there are those that think that the bitterness levels need no adjustment, and that any increase in bitterness (comparative to rapid chilling) is minimal. (assuming that hop material doesn't make it into the cube, that is).

personally - I'm on the red team. I was a convert to no chill, so had the opportunity to try my recipes done both ways. I also am not a particular fan of highly bittered beers, so was hesitant about NC, because I didn't want it to increase my bitterness levels. But I don't believe it has. Others may have differing opinions; thats fine and well. But my opinion is, make no changes in relation to flavour and bittering additions....aroma is another story. (but nothing that a dry hop cant fix)


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## flattop (28/2/09)

Is it possible the bittering and aroma are affected by seasonal differences in hop crops as well?


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## Effect (28/2/09)

When I have no chilled with hops in the cube - the bitterness has been well out of whack. I wouldn't recommend it at all. If you are after aroma I would rather dry hop OR put some hops in a cup of boiling water for 5 minutes, strain and add to the bottleing bucket - that has given me unbelievably good aroma.

I would prefer to only no chill when doing only a 60 min hop addition - that is just my preference and as butters said, it really is a red vs blue battle.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (28/2/09)

Have a read of this, for taking it to the extreme:

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=22964

I'm fermenting a brew along these lines now. I would *not* recommend against it.

For the record: purple...


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## mje1980 (28/2/09)

Paul H said:


> Ok well it seems after tasting some beer from Browndog & BribieG beer can be made using the no chill method without killing anybody.
> 
> That being said before moving to the dark side I would like to know a little more about calculating hop utilization for bitterness & the effect no chill has on flavour & aroma.
> 
> ...




Red team fo life


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## Bribie G (28/2/09)

I no chill and have taken to dry hopping for aroma only with the usual suspects like EKG, styrians etc. Today I late hopped a brew using my big glass teapot and a litre of boiling water, five minutes until the hops settled then added the tea to fermenter. I guess that would be more or less equivalent to hops at flameout except that whatever is extracted from the hops during that 5 mins did not end up getting 'cooked' further in a cube. 
The reason I did this is cos it's an American for a comp (telegraphing my punches here PaulH   ) and I really don't know if true dry hopping as such is common with the Yanks so I've modified it a bit to be on the safe side

However other times I have just chucked the pellets into the fermenter.


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## matti (28/2/09)

I am on the Red team for no adjusting the amount of making ordinary beer no chilling

But I believe by adding the aroma hops a tad later then 20 minutes when no chilling.

So does that make me purple? :lol:


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## browndog (28/2/09)

OK Paul, 
At the risk of giving away all my secrets, here is the down and dirty. If your late/flameout additions are reasonably low alpha you will have no problems, however if you are using a high alpha you will get significant extra bittering. A case point is a bloody loverly APA I brewed with cascade/amerillo and a bit of centennial late in the boil. It turned out fantastic. I brewed exactly the same beer, but buggered up and added columbus in place of the amerillo and I can tell you the difference in bitterness was profound. If you are interested, what I do is wait 10 min or so after flame out, add my flame out additions, whirlpool it straight away, then drain into the fermenter via a hop sock to stop any hop or break material entering the fermenter, then it's overnight to cool then straight into the fermenting fridge and a couple of hrs later, in with the yeast.

cheers

Browndog


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## mje1980 (28/2/09)

browndog said:


> OK Paul,
> At the risk of giving away all my secrets, here is the down and dirty. If your late/flameout additions are reasonably low alpha you will have no problems, however if you are using a high alpha you will get significant extra bittering. A case point is a bloody loverly APA I brewed with cascade/amerillo and a bit of centennial late in the boil. It turned out fantastic. I brewed exactly the same beer, but buggered up and added columbus in place of the amerillo and I can tell you the difference in bitterness was profound. If you are interested, what I do is wait 10 min or so after flame out, add my flame out additions, whirlpool it straight away, then drain into the fermenter via a hop sock to stop any hop or break material entering the fermenter, then it's overnight to cool then straight into the fermenting fridge and a couple of hrs later, in with the yeast.
> 
> cheers
> ...




You could say the same thing for a 60 min addition though. If you bitter to 50 IBU with pride of ringwood, then do an identical batch with 50 IBU with tattnanger or hallerau, you would think the tett/hal batch would have a smoother bitterness. 

Everytime i used target bittering hops for a 60 min addition when i had them, the bitterness was always harsh. THough pacific gem, which was 14.7%, compared to 10 for the target, always had a smooth bitterness. So the difference is hop variety, not the process in which they're used. 

Just thinking?

P.S im not trying to spill any blue blood, or argue, different things work for different people.


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## Thirsty Boy (28/2/09)

I'm on the blue team and think it as Browndog suggests - the difference in bittering (if there is one) is from the late additions only. So if your late addition is 15g of 3.3% saaz, thats going to amount to bugger all - if on the other hand its 60g of 14% Columbus, you might want to consider taking into account the bitterness it will add.

I rarely add hops after 30min if I am no-chilling - preferring to combine a Cube Hop addition with an Ultra Late Hop, where I use a french press coffee strainer to do pretty much what Bribie G described - steep the hops in boiling water for a minute or two and add the tea directly to the fermenter. I calculate cube addition hops as though they had been added to the boil at 15-20mins.

If I do use late hops for a No-Chill beer, I calculate the bitterness of the late addition hops as though they had been added around 10 minutes before they actually were. A 5min addition - calculated as a 15min addition, a whirlpool addition calculated as though it were a 10 addition. Its not exact by any means, but it gets me pretty close I think.

So blue for me - but only if the occasion calls for it.

TB


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## mckenry (28/2/09)

OK, so I've read four thousand pages on No chill hopping V late kettle and does it result in more bitterness or less aroma or both or neither? And now I have a question. I'm sure this has probably been posed and answered. Apologies if it has, but I cant read any more search pages tonight!
What about leaving out the traditional chilling - using a cube and crash chilling that? Can this then avoid the longer times that hops (either late kettle, flameout, or cube) are exposed to high temps and therefore avoid the extra bitterness / lack of aroma? Is there a problem with this?
Even if you wish to point me in the right direction, rather than answer, thats cool too.


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## dpadden (28/2/09)

The main danger from what I have read is that there is not enough time for the hot wort to kill all of the nasties and sterilise the inside of the cube.

I think you have a good point though and maybe leaving in the cube for the correct amount of time to sterilise (say 10 minutes for arguments sake) and then crash chill in the pool, bath tub, ice in sink, etc.


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## mckenry (28/2/09)

Paddo said:


> The main danger from what I have read is that there is not enough time for the hot wort to kill all of the nasties and sterilise the inside of the cube.
> 
> I think you have a good point though and maybe leaving in the cube for the correct amount of time to sterilise (say 10 minutes for arguments sake) and then crash chill in the pool, bath tub, ice in sink, etc.



Yep, I did some more reading and came across a similar thread. Still, surely the nasties that you dont kill off with extended hot time would still be there using the traditional copper chiller during the chilling time? That's the main reason I like the idea of No chilling in a cube.


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## Daniel.lear (28/2/09)

I guess im in the blue team then  

I almost exclusively cube hop and always calculate the addition as a 20 min addition. (right or wrong)

Im not afraid of a bit of bitterness, but i did notice an increase in percieved bitterness levels with no-chill with 'traditional' hopping regeims. Hence after reading many posts in this forum i went with a 20 min calculation for all brews that have any hop material that makes it into the cube.

Along with butters and many others, I find that with this method, (with my setup, recipies and equipment) Aroma is subdued a little. So to compensate i will dry hop in the fermenter/seccondary/keg, or just like i did way back with kits, bung them into the coffee plunger for couple of min and add while racking.

Leary


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## Effect (28/2/09)

Phillip said:


> I would rather dry hop OR put some hops in a cup of boiling water for 5 minutes, strain and add to the bottleing bucket - that has given me unbelievably good aroma.




I think that is the way to go instead of dry hopping.


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## Thirsty Boy (1/3/09)

mckenry said:


> OK, so I've read four thousand pages on No chill hopping V late kettle and does it result in more bitterness or less aroma or both or neither? And now I have a question. I'm sure this has probably been posed and answered. Apologies if it has, but I cant read any more search pages tonight!
> What about leaving out the traditional chilling - using a cube and crash chilling that? Can this then avoid the longer times that hops (either late kettle, flameout, or cube) are exposed to high temps and therefore avoid the extra bitterness / lack of aroma? Is there a problem with this?
> Even if you wish to point me in the right direction, rather than answer, thats cool too.



Then - its not no-chilling. So none of the issues apply.

Its just a not particularly effective way of rapid chilling - you get to more closely emulate the properties of a rapid chilled beer, BUT - you take risks if you try to still reap some of the benefits of a No-Chilled beer.

Chuck it in a pool or a dam - that will chill it down, but I would be pitching my yeast as soon as it was cool enough to do so, rather than trying to store it for any length of time.

Don't stick it in a fridge, that wont cool it down rapidly enough for it to be considered rapidly chilled or to do you any good at all, it'll just work the crap out of your fridge & still take hours to cool down.


Oh - and while hop matter getting into the cube might make the increase in bitterness from a late addition more severe, the hops do not have to get into the cube for it to still happen. The alpha acids are dissolved out of the hop matter fairly quickly - and over a period of time they isomerise. Even if no green bits whatsoever make it into your cube, the alpha acids are in the liquid.

Once again, this refuses to be simple - it will be different for people who use pellets vs those who use flowers. In flowers, the acids are trapped "inside" the cone, they don't all come out in one shot, the physical agitation of the boil helps shake em, out so to speak. In pellets - they aren't trapped and as soon as the pellets break down, the acids are there on the surface ready to go. So if you dump in 20g of flowers late in the boil - you might get the aroma, but some of the acids will still be completely locked up - that wont be nearly as true with pellets. Perhaps one more reason why people have had different experiences??


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## mckenry (1/3/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Then - its not no-chilling. So none of the issues apply.
> 
> Its just a not particularly effective way of rapid chilling - you get to more closely emulate the properties of a rapid chilled beer, BUT - you take risks if you try to still reap some of the benefits of a No-Chilled beer.
> 
> ...



So in summary - No chill cube cannot give the aroma properties of rapid chill - traditional method, but can add extra bitterness if same hop schedule is applied? So, leave off the flameout additions and just let it sit until it naturally cools and then go with;



Phillip said:


> put some hops in a cup of boiling water for 5 minutes, strain and add to the bottleing bucket - that has given me unbelievably good aroma.


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## Joel (1/3/09)

I've been no-chilling since it was first discussed here on AHB. But, I've had a several year brewing hiatus so I've only done a handful of batches with my current gas fired brewery + no chill. It really simplifies my brew day.

This thread has been a very educational read. It's good to see the art of back yard brewery science is alive and well .

I'd noticed a decrease of aroma in my beers as well. I've not given it too much thought as I don't do 'big' hop aroma type beers. But, lately I've been thinking of branching out and experimenting with styles other than my usuals so this thread has been very timely.

I like your summary Mckenry. Nice and concise. 

From this thread I've come up with a chill to no-chill hop schedule converter.

The typical;

Bittering - 60+ mins from end of boil
Flavour - 20-30mins
Aroma - 0-10mins

Becomes;
Bittering - 60+ mins from end of boil
Flavour - 0-10 mins
Aroma - put some hops in a cup of boiling water for 5 minutes, strain and add to the secondary fermenter/bottleing bucket/keg (to paraphase Philip).


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## Bribie G (1/3/09)

I'm currently doing an American Amber about to go into secondary, and a Ruddles type bitter in the cube waiting for a spot in the brewfridge.
Yesterday I 'wet hopped' the AA using a big glass teapot I got from an op shop for about $4. It's pure 1970s but does a great job of making hop 'tea' and also good for steeping grains.

I'll be doing the same with the Ruddles plus Bramling Cross as it's a big hop beer as well.


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## buttersd70 (1/3/09)

mmm. It's an interesting subject. When it was first raised, I looked at thirsty's post, and the science geek in me went...."yep, that makes sense. It's logical, based on scientific principle, it must be right.".....It's the empirical results that, to me, contradict scientific logic. Thats the thing that interests me about it.....logically, and scientifically, TB is absolutely right. It _should _introduce more bitterness. I'll not dispute what he's saying. In theory, the Blue team wins hands down......
But I'm going off empirical results (which makes a change for me....I'm a _theoretical _numbers kinda guy....). 
I'm not super-passionate about this, I'm well open on the subject. And in the interest of impartiality, I will say that the highest alpha hop I've used in late additions is around the 8% mark.....so there may be merit in the theory, as far as _high _alpha hopping is concerned. I've not tried a high alpha in late addition, nor have I tried ridiculously (ie...flame suit on....american style B) ) high late additions......

For the record, the most (late hop additions that I have used) has been a/ 1.5 g/L ~5%AA; and b/ 0.75g/L ~8%AA ; at 15 and 5 mins. Same for each.

I say this in order to be completely open about what I have tried, in NC vs Rapid chill....so that each brewer can draw conclusion from relevant data, instead of supposition....


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## SpillsMostOfIt (1/3/09)

buttersd70 said:


> I say this in order to be completely open <snip> ... so that each brewer can draw conclusion from relevant data, instead of supposition....



I'm sorry, but there is simply no place for that sort of behaviour here. Remember, this is the Internet and supposition is at the very core of what we do.


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## buttersd70 (1/3/09)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> I'm sorry, but there is simply no place for that sort of behaviour here. Remember, this is the Internet and supposition is at the very core of what we do.



bbbaaaaaaaawwwwwwhhhhh!!
:lol: 
You now need to do my laundry for me.....as I just befouled myself concurrently from multiple orifices at the same time.... :lol:


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## joecast (1/3/09)

Leary said:


> Im not afraid of a bit of bitterness, but i did notice an increase in percieved bitterness levels with no-chill with 'traditional' hopping regeims. Hence after reading many posts in this forum i went with a 20 min calculation for all brews that have any hop material that makes it into the cube.
> 
> Along with butters and many others, I find that with this method, (with my setup, recipies and equipment) Aroma is subdued a little. So to compensate i will dry hop in the fermenter/seccondary/keg, or just like i did way back with kits, bung them into the coffee plunger for couple of min and add while racking.
> 
> Leary



after 3 no chill brews this seems to be closest to what i have experienced. my last brew i added 20g centennial at 1min and 10g dry hop. should have done it the other way around, or even all 30g dry hop as there was already a 10min addition as well. i dont mind the bitterness, but would love more aroma.


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## Thirsty Boy (2/3/09)

buttersd70 said:


> mmm. It's an interesting subject. When it was first raised, I looked at thirsty's post, and the science geek in me went...."yep, that makes sense. It's logical, based on scientific principle, it must be right.".....It's the empirical results that, to me, contradict scientific logic. Thats the thing that interests me about it.....logically, and scientifically, TB is absolutely right. It _should _introduce more bitterness. I'll not dispute what he's saying. In theory, the Blue team wins hands down......
> But I'm going off empirical results (which makes a change for me....I'm a _theoretical _numbers kinda guy....).
> I'm not super-passionate about this, I'm well open on the subject. And in the interest of impartiality, I will say that the highest alpha hop I've used in late additions is around the 8% mark.....so there may be merit in the theory, as far as _high _alpha hopping is concerned. I've not tried a high alpha in late addition, nor have I tried ridiculously (ie...flame suit on....american style B) ) high late additions......
> 
> ...



Thats the thing that is both confusing and interesting about this - the empirical results seem to be different for different people.

I can build the best theoretical case in the world for the blue team - but that doesn't matter a squirt if like Butters, you weren't noticing a difference anyway.

On the other hand, the reason I started thinking about this was only because I did notice a difference - the rest has just been tweaking to try and fit the different experiences people have described into my theorising - its still got some pretty obvious holes though.

mckenry - the best thing to do I think, would be to brew to the recipe you have found/developed, as though there were no difference at all. See how it turns out. If you are happy with it... then there is nothing to change. Then just brew a lot and experiment.

Didn't get the aroma you were looking for? ... might be the NC, might be something else. If you can _never_ get the aroma you are looking for. Then this might be a reason. You could fix it with cube hops - or dry hops - or an Ultra Late hop into the fermentor - or just more late hops - or by rapid chilling instead of NC or - probably 5 different other ways.

If its usually fine, but in six months you cube up a batch that has 60g of late chinook, and it turns out a stack more bitter than you were expecting ... then this might be a reason. Or maybe you just find chinook harsh - or maybe your normal hops are old and these were fresh....

In a year - try a recipe you have done a few times - Use the hops you usually use and stick the late hops in a hop sock and whack it in the cube instead of late in the boil. See what it does to your aroma, see how much it affects your bitterness.

Try an experiment where you late hop the hell out of a beer - cube half of it and chill the other half. See how they compare.


Me - I avoid the late kettle hops a bit and get my flavour & aroma from cube hopping and Ultra Late hopping... but thats just me. What I do is "right" because I know it works. But its not exclusively right - almost nothing in brewing is. Sorry

TB


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## mckenry (3/3/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> mckenry - the best thing to do I think, would be to brew to the recipe you have found/developed, as though there were no difference at all. See how it turns out. If you are happy with it... then there is nothing to change. Then just brew a lot and experiment.
> 
> Try an experiment where you late hop the hell out of a beer - cube half of it and chill the other half. See how they compare.
> 
> TB



Yep, fark it. I am from scientific background and love a side-by-side. Even though these days its all I.T. and budget forcasts :angry: 
I am gonna cube half a batch with no flameout, the other half with regular flameout addition. Both no-chill.
With the no flameout I am going to strain the same amount of hops plunger style into secondary (approx day 5) and see if I can ramp up the aroma over the regular hop schedule.
This will be an experiment proper as I can prove repeatability, but the sample pool will be just uno


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## mckenry (17/3/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> mckenry - the best thing to do I think, would be to brew to the recipe you have found/developed, as though there were no difference at all. See how it turns out. If you are happy with it... then there is nothing to change. Then just brew a lot and experiment.
> 
> Try an experiment where you late hop the hell out of a beer - cube half of it and chill the other half. See how they compare.
> 
> TB








mckenry said:


> Yep, fark it. I am from scientific background and love a side-by-side. Even though these days its all I.T. and budget forcasts :angry:
> I am gonna cube half a batch with no flameout, the other half with regular flameout addition. Both no-chill.
> With the no flameout I am going to strain the same amount of hops plunger style into secondary (approx day 5) and see if I can ramp up the aroma over the regular hop schedule.
> This will be an experiment proper as I can prove repeatability, but the sample pool will be just uno




1st taste today of above experiment. 
Sorry, I seriously cant tell the difference. SWMBO poured the beers, knowing which keg was which & I couldnt tell. I didnt want to have any preconceived ideas on which one 'should have more aroma or more bitterness etc'. I thought she was having a lend by pouring two from the same keg.
I then poured one from each keg, turned my back while she moved them around and I cannot tell them apart.
Sample pool of 1 does not the generate greatest confidence, but for me, it'll do. No need to go to the extra effort I say.
Remember, it'll do ME. My wife can pick up slight changes of bittermess better than I can, but also agrees these are so close, it's not worth splitting hairs.
Anyone else done this experiment since this thread?
mckenry


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## Quintrex (17/3/09)

mckenry said:


> 1st taste today of above experiment.
> Sorry, I seriously cant tell the difference. SWMBO poured the beers, knowing which keg was which & I couldnt tell. I didnt want to have any preconceived ideas on which one 'should have more aroma or more bitterness etc'. I thought she was having a lend by pouring two from the same keg.
> I then poured one from each keg, turned my back while she moved them around and I cannot tell them apart.
> Sample pool of 1 does not the generate greatest confidence, but for me, it'll do. No need to go to the extra effort I say.
> ...



My current thoughts on the matter are this, take as you will. I think it depends what beer you brew as I'd say for each addition of hops you have in a brew by no-chilling, the dissolved alpha acids will spend an extra ~10ish minutes in the temp-zone where they are/can be isomerized and so for multiple additions this can throw out your bitterness. What i think matters is having the ability to reproduce brews and then we can just becomes a matter of recipe tweaking.
Nice work on doing your experiment? 

Thirsty did you end up doing that follow up experiment?

Q


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## mckenry (17/3/09)

Quintrex said:


> a brew by no-chilling, the dissolved alpha acids will spend an extra ~10ish minutes in the temp-zone where they are/can be isomerized and so for multiple additions this can throw out your bitterness.



Thats what I was (and I think most were) expecting and it makes sense, but with my APA, I couldnt tell. If someone can be bothered doing this with a lager I'll be happy to take on board advise/results as gospel.


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## clean brewer (17/3/09)

> Bittering - 60+ mins from end of boil
> Flavour - 0-10 mins
> Aroma - put some hops in a cup of boiling water for 5 minutes, strain and add to the secondary fermenter/bottleing bucket/keg (to paraphase Philip).



Ive been doing it this way except, bittering is at 45mins.. I adjusted it like this as when I did my 1st AG and No-chilled, I found it was quite bitter and thats about it...

Seems to work well now...


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## Thirsty Boy (18/3/09)

Quintrex said:


> My current thoughts on the matter are this, take as you will. I think it depends what beer you brew as I'd say for each addition of hops you have in a brew by no-chilling, the dissolved alpha acids will spend an extra ~10ish minutes in the temp-zone where they are/can be isomerized and so for multiple additions this can throw out your bitterness. What i think matters is having the ability to reproduce brews and then we can just becomes a matter of recipe tweaking.
> Nice work on doing your experiment?
> 
> Thirsty did you end up doing that follow up experiment?
> ...




not yet, will get around to it one of these days when I have a spare hour or two to burn - not forgotten, just low priority.

However - a little more anecdotal stuff

Last brew I did (american wheat) had no boil hops at all, only cube hops calculated as though they were 20 min additions - under bitter from my target, but not horribly so. Tweaked it with some tetra and about 5 IBUs worth brought it up to snuff. Equates to about 25% of my 20IBU target so calculating as a 15 min addition would have been nearly on the money.

Thats hops into the actual cube though - so only minimal relevance to mckenry's experience


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## buttersd70 (18/3/09)

mckenry said:


> 1st taste today of above experiment.
> Sorry, I seriously cant tell the difference. SWMBO poured the beers, knowing which keg was which & I couldnt tell. I didnt want to have any preconceived ideas on which one 'should have more aroma or more bitterness etc'. I thought she was having a lend by pouring two from the same keg.
> I then poured one from each keg, turned my back while she moved them around and I cannot tell them apart.
> Sample pool of 1 does not the generate greatest confidence, but for me, it'll do. No need to go to the extra effort I say.
> ...



Mckenry...can we get your recipe, hop alpha and schedules, to put it into perspective?


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## SpillsMostOfIt (18/3/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> not yet, will get around to it one of these days when I have a spare hour or two to burn - not forgotten, just low priority.
> 
> However - a little more anecdotal stuff
> 
> ...



My cube-hopped beer was and remains disappointing. I worked it all on 20min additions into the cube and it is underbittered, underflavoured and undersmelly. I'm drinking it, but not offering it to guests. Good thing I don't have too many guests these days!  

Now, this contrasts starkly with a previous experiment where I added some purportedly aroma-hops into the cube and I got no aroma, but more bitterness.

I'm tending towards steering clear of putting any hops in my cubes - primarily because of my fear of failure and my current levels of fear...


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## Bribie G (18/3/09)

Depending on the style of the beer I am having great results adding hop tea a few days before bottling (should work even better with kegging) to boost aroma and some flavour, but only using the freshest aroma hops I can obtain. Older and non - aroma hops can contain Beta acids that are bitter as-is and don't need isomerisation so can add unwanted bitterness. Make some hop tea with some older hops and taste some, you will soon be pulling funny faces from the bitterness.

Flowers e.g. BSaaz work best.


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## blackbock (18/3/09)

BribieG said:


> Flowers e.g. BSaaz work best.



I'll second that one.


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## mckenry (18/3/09)

buttersd70 said:


> Mckenry...can we get your recipe, hop alpha and schedules, to put it into perspective?



It was based on Back Yard Brewers Simcoe APA. Scaled down to 22L.
After the 10 min addition, waited 10 mins, drew off 11L and then added the 5 & o mins at flameout (but only half the hops as 11L were drawn off already) as per usual to the wort.
I also used 1272 American Ale II.

So the only real mod is that I didnt have a 5 min addition, a slightly bigger flameout addition.

Sorry I cant you give you my AA, (I'm away with work til Saturday) but I assume they'd be pretty close to BYB's.
Let me know if you need exact AA and I'll provide on Sunday or Monday.
mckenry


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## rich_lamb (18/3/09)

I've been making a few (moderately) low gravity beers lately with only bittering additions at 60 min, and I go straight from the kettle to the cube (while filtering) so I have the worst case "cube isomerisation" going on. These beers have been typically 20-30IBU as a guide - not exceptionally bitter.

Note that my first no-chill which was not filtered and had all the hop residue in the cube was WAY more bitter than target, so it does depend on how much of the hop matter gets through.

It's pretty subjective, but I would suggest the latest beers are more bitter than expected though not grossly so. I think treating 45 minute additions as 60 minute might work well, and when I need aroma I will probably use the "hop tea" method as it strikes me as offering the best control.


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## Fourstar (18/3/09)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> I'm tending towards steering clear of putting any hops in my cubes - primarily because of my fear of failure and my current levels of fear...



Hey Spills,

I cube hop all of my beers now.

Bittering (boil 60mins)
Flavour at (sub 10mins, flameout or whirlpool)
Aroma - added to cube when wort is below 70deg.

The last beer I did, a Cascade APA was cube hopped with 30g cascade @ 64 deg. The aroma is fantastic, equivilant of a whirlpool or hopback addition still had some grassyness to it too.... very nice.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (18/3/09)

Fourstar said:


> The last beer I did, a Cascade APA was cube hopped with 30g cascade @ 64 deg. The aroma is fantastic, equivilant of a whirlpool or hopback addition still had some grassyness to it too.... very nice.



Perhaps I just need to fail more - at least I get to drink my failures.

Realistically, I have never been able to replicate your success in this way. I find it interesting that so many people get such different results.

For hoppy beers, I will probably return to lots of flameout additions and cube-chilling as I have a near endless water supply (bore with what I understand to be a 1-100 year surface to aquifer cycle, but that is getting too off topic even for me).

I've not considered opening the cube at that sort of temp. I tend to leave it sealed until I tip it all out and feed the yeast...


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## Fourstar (18/3/09)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> I've not considered opening the cube at that sort of temp. I tend to leave it sealed until I tip it all out and feed the yeast...



Personally i think for the length of time I have the cube open, in a consealed draft-free area im quite safe. I quickly add my hops, I then reseal the cube once more and purge all air out (as much as possible) of the cube as well. 

I have yet to have a batch go belly up (6 so far with this method). The chances of it picking up something would probably be less than that of those who religiously no chill in their fermenter h34r: .


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## Bribie G (18/3/09)

Fourstar said:


> Personally i think for the length of time I have the cube open, in a consealed draft-free area im quite safe. I quickly add my hops, I then reseal the cube once more and purge all air out (as much as possible) of the cube as well.
> 
> I have yet to have a batch go belly up (6 so far with this method). The chances of it picking up something would probably be less than that of those who religiously no chill in their fermenter h34r: .



There's cubing and cubing - 80 percent of the time I use cubing as a cooling method and pitch ASAP. On the other hand I cube a brew into four 5L wee cubes and store them for up to 2 months and add a cube to my regular partial brew.

Sure you go to extremes with a cube that you want to store for months, as you would also do with a jar of homemade pickles or preserved cumquats or whatever. However doing things to a cube that is only going to last 24 hours isn't any different to opening a fermenter and chucking in a hop teabag etc and has probably fewer attendant risks due to the high temperature in the cube.


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## Ross (18/3/09)

We just had a club brew day at Eagle Heights brewery, & i picked up the last 2 cubes, full of trub & hops. Managed to fill one fermenter out of them, but there was a good 5L of solid hop & other matter. will be interesting to see if this has any detrimental flavour or increased bittering against the other beers when we taste test in April.
Will report back....

cheers Ross


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## Fourstar (18/3/09)

BribieG said:


> However doing things to a cube that is only going to last 24 hours isn't any different to opening a fermenter and chucking in a hop teabag etc and has probably fewer attendant risks due to the high temperature in the cube.



I store these cubes (some have been for up to 1 month~). All of my cubes and anything that is involved in the brew process post kettle gets a hefty cleaning regieme with sodium percarbonate. a heavy rinsing and iodophored. that also includes my cubes and their lids and openings (bits that people forget often.) If im storing for 24 hours so i can get down to pitch temperature or im sotring it until i get my yeast i ordered, no batch is different with my preperation.

Does this keep me safe? Maybe.

I wish i could agree with you Bribie regarding throwing in a hop teabag in during fermentation compared to pre fermentation. Pre fermentation its an ideal breeding ground for bacteria and we have to be diligent to ensure we dont get infections especially whe the wort gets to body temperatures. During and especially the final stages of fermentation are quite safe IMHO. Its an anerobic environment laden with alcohol and a very low ph. In fact any bacteria entering our wort at this stage has to battle against on average 7-10 million cells of yeast per millileter. Personally i dont think it stands a chance. people have been brewing in open slate fermenters for centuries.... Samuel Smith still does today and produces exceptional beer. The yeast are our pawns in the battle against bacteria during fermentation.. and we end up with several billion of them when the shows over. :icon_cheers: 

Personally i just dont like the idea of my wort sitting in 'open air for several hours without any yeast attacking it... its asking for bacteria to build up and take over. I think allot on here would agree with the act of no chilling direct to fermenter as being on a knifes edge.

Cheers Bribie! :icon_drunk:


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## clarkey7 (18/3/09)

Ross said:


> We just had a club brew day at Eagle Heights brewery, & i picked up the last 2 cubes, full of trub & hops. Managed to fill one fermenter out of them, but there was a good 5L of solid hop & other matter. will be interesting to see if this has any detrimental flavour or increased bittering against the other beers when we taste test in April.
> Will report back....
> 
> cheers Ross


Mine is kegged and carbonated....tasted it tonight. Is a very tasty drop (mine done with Wyeast 1098 Bristish Ale Yeast).

....Quite bitter due to not hitting the expected efficiency during the mash. Nothing to do with No-Chill. :icon_cheers: 

PB


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## PostModern (18/3/09)

Fourstar said:


> I store these cubes (some have been for up to 1 month~). All of my cubes and anything that is involved in the brew process post kettle gets a hefty cleaning regieme with sodium percarbonate. a heavy rinsing and iodophored.



Could be time and temperature working in your favour. ie, 3 mins at 100C or 30 at 70... I personally don't open a cube from near boiling, perhaps 80C until I pitch anywhere from 24 hours to 3 months later. I reckon opening a cube any amount of time after its started cooling is risky, but your record speaks for itself. Interesting...


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## clarkey7 (18/3/09)

Has anyone from the RED, BLUE or other team actually heard of, read about, asked or tried to get a beer tested in a laboratory and/or by a sensory analysis team for IBU's in relation to which chilling method is used (split wort - half no chill - half rapid chill)?

If not - why not?

What were the results?

PB :unsure:


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## reVoxAHB (18/3/09)

Pocket Beers said:


> Has anyone from the RED, BLUE or other team actually heard of, read about, asked or tried to get a beer tested in a laboratory and/or by a sensory analysis team for IBU's in relation to which chilling method is used (split wort - half no chill - half rapid chill)?
> 
> If not - why not?



Well, for a start, lab analysis is big big bux and we're lowly little homebrewers. What's a sensory analysis team?

reVox


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## Fourstar (18/3/09)

PostModern said:


> I reckon opening a cube any amount of time after its started cooling is risky, but your record speaks for itself. Interesting...



I had the exact same philosophy PoMo. Now im happy to 'chase the dragon' the get taht elusive hop aroma in my no chilling. I must say i am very diligent with my sanitation when it comes to this. I can only guess that the cube still has enough thermal mass to help pasturise any extras ive added and cancel out any radicals ive introduced. I like to live dangerously... in a clean kinda way!


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## katzke (19/3/09)

reVox said:


> Well, for a start, lab analysis is big big bux and we're lowly little homebrewers. What's a sensory analysis team?
> 
> reVox




Those are the blokes that get paid to drink beer at the brewery. Seems the robots, as good as they are, are still not as good at detecting good tasting beer from bad. Fancy lab to test what a lab can test then a blind tasting room to tell what people think. 

Least that is how they do it at our local craft brewery here in Oregon. Last I looked they are like the 16th largest brewer in the USA.


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## clarkey7 (19/3/09)

reVox said:


> Well, for a start, lab analysis is big big bux and we're lowly little homebrewers. What's a sensory analysis team?
> 
> reVox


Well I kind of figured that the cost would be out of the reach of the little guy....
But I also figured that someone must have tested it somewhere in the world and that one of us might have heard about the results.

I guess the big guy doesn't care about No-Chill as he is using more traditional brewing methods.

KatZke - Your right that a sensory team is more sensitive than a Gas Chromatograph (and other fancy lab gear) for many compounds, but bitterness units is not one of them.

PB :icon_cheers:


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## katzke (20/3/09)

Pocket Beers said:


> Well I kind of figured that the cost would be out of the reach of the little guy....
> But I also figured that someone must have tested it somewhere in the world and that one of us might have heard about the results.
> 
> I guess the big guy doesn't care about No-Chill as he is using more traditional brewing methods.
> ...



Right on the sensitivity. Remember the reason they use people to taste beer is machines can not tell you how it all goes together. Regardless of what the machine says it still gets down to what the customer thinks of the product.


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## Scruffy (21/5/09)

Pocket Beers said:


> I guess the big guy doesn't care about No-Chill as he is using more ECONOMICAL brewing methods.



EFA


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## Maxt (29/5/09)

I'm glad I stumbled upon this, because I sold my chiller when I was getting out of brewing (silly move) and since no chilling, especially with high alpha acid flame out hops, I have found my beers to be waay more bitter than planned.

I will be going back to a chiller, but after reading some of Jamil's stuff, I also wonder if normal chilling is quick enough to protect the hop character and balance of some beers.

I think no chill works for early hop addition beers, or beers that have the flameouts calculated as 15-20min additions, but for me it's too much guess work.


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