# Dedicated Herms Guide, Problems And Solution Thread



## chappo1970

Just wanted to ask and guage whether there would be much interest from the HERMies AHBers out there in having a dedicated HERMS thread where we can discuss our systems, procedures, set ups, theories, problems and solutions without the clouding banter that seems to creep into nearly every thread. I'm probably more guilty than some for that. Anyway before starting the thread I thought it wise to maybe open the floor to maybe set down some rules of the thread as well so we can get what we want out of it.

I suggest:


To stay on topic where reasonable (a little friendly banter is ok)
Purely on procedures, techniques, brewing techniques, equipment, technology and set ups.
Talk on recipes and results from HERMS systems
Photo's, drawings, scribbles of gear and set up is a must.
No trolling lets keep it straight, debate well, deal with facts and remain focused. Difference of opinion is more than acceptable. Calling someone out for a shooting and pissing contest isn't.
Advanced brewing techniques using HERMS.
Beginner advice on setting HERMS systems up.
The thread will be actively Moderated to keep it on topic.
Now this isn't an elitist thread ok. So please don't start banging that one out guys. It is however for those in the HERMS world of brewing. We don't bash on much about our systems etc as mentioned above. But it will be a place where those doing HERMS can advance and share their knowledge.


Cheers

Chappo


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## FNQ Bunyip

I'll be watching with interest ... 

been thinking about this for ages , havn't changed anything on the rig since last full change around , must be time to get creative...

Gas fired herms ...

good work chap chap


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## glaab

sound like a good idea Chappo. I wanna setup a herms, can I start aksing questions now?
Are the 19L Big W pots ok for the vessel? might grab one while they're cheap.


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## chappo1970

Thanks FNQ and yes it is time you did step up! :lol: 

@Newguy that would be great if you could post your system. Maybe the older hands at HERMS post up their systems and modifications to kick off the thread? I'll PM you Newguy when it gets a start.

@Bulp to right mate. It's like we are the unmentionables.




glaab said:


> sound like a good idea Chappo. I wanna setup a herms, can I start aksing questions now?
> Are the 19L Big W pots ok for the vessel? might grab one while they're cheap.



Mods please delete this post!  

Kidding! 

Glabb welcome aboard! IMO *only* 19lt is too big because of the volume of water the HE has to deal with including the HE from the wort so it would be better for a smaller 9-11lt pots. I have seen at BigW. But lets leave that for the thread. PM if you wish.


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## RussTaylor

I bought a HERMS second hand from a guy around the corner. 3 brews through it so far. It works well, but can see some adjustments that I'd like to make.


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## Screwtop

Decided to reply to AndrewQld in this thread, should be more appropriate.



AndrewQLD said:


> I really don't see the logic there, are you saying that there are no starches in the grain bed to convert? I'd be a bit worried about missing out on some of those starches and enzymes.


As it was explained to me Andrew, solubilised starches are washed out of the grainbed and away with the liquor where it is heated on circulation through the HE then returned at or a little below the HE controllers set temp. After 10 min or so of contact with liquor most of the available starches in the grist should have solubilised into the liquor, none or effectively none, of what we want would then be present in the grist.



AndrewQLD said:


> And another point, If the temp in your grain bed is lagging so far behind the wort that is circulating through your herms then it means your not circulating through your grain bed very effectively and you are more than likely channeling the wort down the sides of the tun and not through the grain bed which would be why your temps are so different.
> 
> After having a conversation with Gregs on Saturday about this issue I decided to test the theory myself, I did a fairly simple brew of a lite lager and added a good does of rice hulls to the grist to aid the flow, I kept my recirc at the usual flow rate. The grain bed lagged by about 2 during temp changes but settled at the correct temp within about 5 minutes. I also noticed that throughout the mash the grain bed was soft and not compacting at all, the rice hulls helped here and also a balanced recirculation speed.



I recirc very slowly so as not to compact the mash, my mash remains very open and floating, never need hulls even at 60% wheat.



AndrewQLD said:


> When I have brewed without rice hulls I've noticed what you and Screwy report, a big difference between the grain bed temp and wort out temp that can take a long time to even out unless the mash is stirred, then it seems to even out pretty quickly again indicating poor flow _through_ the grain bed.
> So it seems that it might be more of an issue with poor circulation through the grain bed that is causing the mash to lag behind the HERMS so much and for so long and it's fairly easy to fix with rice hulls and balancing your circulation speed.
> Does that make sense?
> 
> Cheers
> Andrew



Probably does to you Andrew, from your experience with your system. And I think its as important for HERMS brewers as all AG brewers to realise kit does make a difference, you need to apply the same basic principals while allowing for differences due to equipment and process variations.
Remember I dont stir my mash apart from a few stirs after dough in and a few after ramping to MO. My experience with my system and from advice received is that the temp of the grainbed is insignicant. The max temp reached by the liquor during recirculation is very important. My mash efficiency is very high >90% so I have no concerns regarding poor mash circulation.
Part of the problem with my system reflecting different temperatures to yours could be in the type of through the wall dialface thermometer I am using. Am positive the temperature of the tun surrounding the mounting position bears quite an impact upon the temperature displayed. The reason I believe this is that if I take a temp reading of the wort/liquor inside the tun during recirculation using a good quality thermometer it is much closer (around 2) to the HE out temp of the liquor, but the dialface is way below over quite a long time, indicating that the time taken for the tun to heat up is affecting the reading. My MM dialface thermometer has a thick SS section from the threaded part inside the tun which reduces down to the smaller probe. I have always had this problem with this thermometer, maybe the large section sinks temp away from the probe affecting the reading. Well before changing to HERMS I was having attenuation problems. Having to mash at much lower temperatures than convention would dictate to achieve good attenuation would indicate there was an anomaly in temperature reading somewhere.

Cheers,

Screwy


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## AndrewQLD

I've deleted the lists and left only relevant content (some edited) so we will have a fairly continuous discussion that people won't have to wade through (hopefully) as per OPs request.
topic is now pinned.

Andrew


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## glaab

ok, 1st noob question. I'm off to BigW soon, is an 11L pot is big enough to squeeze in copper coil, element and probe?
and is 10M of 1/2in copper ok for the coil? Cheers


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## sav

Great to see this thread happening,Andrew how are you changing from the tun to kettle after recirculating,At the moment I am turning valve off from herms then connecting to kettle I am thing about hard plumbing through .
cheers sav


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## sav

glaab said:


> ok, 1st noob question. I'm off to BigW soon, is an 11L pot is big enough to squeeze in copper coil, element and probe?
> and is 10M of 1/2in copper ok for the coil? Cheers



I have 11lt pot 9mtr 1/2 copper jug element no probe thats is as close to mash return as possible


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## nifty

glaab said:


> ok, 1st noob question. I'm off to BigW soon, is an 11L pot is big enough to squeeze in copper coil, element and probe?
> and is 10M of 1/2in copper ok for the coil? Cheers



I use a 7 litre el cheapo pot with about 8 metres of 1/2 inch copper coiled inside.

nifty


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## AndrewQLD

sav said:


> Great to see this thread happening,Andrew how are you changing from the tun to kettle after recirculating,At the moment I am turning valve off from herms then connecting to kettle I am thing about hard plumbing through .
> cheers sav




My pump has 2 valves on the inlet and 2 on the outlet
HLT enters through the bottom left valve and mashtun enters bottom right valve
Top left valve goes to Herms and top right valve goes to boiler, Probe goes into the herms outlet.





I'll get a better picture tomorrow and label it all up.

Cheers
Andrew


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## chappo1970

Andrew,
It's hard to tell from the photo but are you running 2 pumps?

If so what do both look after in the brewery?

Chap Chap


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## AndrewQLD

Chappo said:


> Andrew,
> It's hard to tell from the photo but are you running 2 pumps?
> 
> If so what do both look after in the brewery?
> 
> Chap Chap



Click on the pic Chappo and it will enlarge, only running the one pump that does everything.

Andrew


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## TidalPete

glaab said:


> ok, 1st noob question. I'm off to BigW soon, is an 11L pot is big enough to squeeze in copper coil, element and probe?
> and is 10M of 1/2in copper ok for the coil? Cheers



IMHO the smaller the pot (Less water to heat) & the longer the copper coil the more efficient your HE will be.
I have 5.7 metres of copper coil inside a 7 litre pot & get a temp rise of 2 deg c\minute.
Nifty --- HITBH did you manage to cram 8 metres of 1\2" copper coil inside a 7 litre pot?  

TP


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## reVoxAHB

TidalPete said:


> IMHO the smaller the pot (Less water to heat) & the longer the copper coil the more efficient your HE will be.
> I have 5.7 metres of copper coil inside a 7 litre pot & get a temp rise of 2 deg c\minute.
> Nifty --- HITBH did you manage to cram 8 metres of 1\2" copper coil inside a 7 litre pot?
> 
> TP



+1. My dedicated exchanger is along the line of what you are considering approx. 10m in 11L with 2000w element and my ramp time is longer than I would like. For my first herms build it's acceptible and I use it at every brew day but If I had to do it over again I would def go smaller pot (or likely cylinder) with a tighter coil, etc. Like the setup that was recently fabricated in Vietnam (apologies can't remember ahb user, etc. but it's a recent build and very flash). 

reVox


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## chappo1970

This is my HE almost exactly likes Sav's but he was able to shoe horn in another meter IIRC.





Has a 2200W electrical jug element scavanged from a a cheapy Aldi kettle. There is a bit of work in modifying the housing of the element. I took some photos of what need to be done but they are at home.





Entry of wort is via the bottom ball valve. I use this valve to control flow but also to act as an airlock when changing hoses over so i don't need to re prime the pump. The top you can see the thermowell for the TempMate probe. It 's a simple tee piece with a terminator end. I epoxied it in there using high temp expoxy.





This shows the HE coil and the element which is dead centre of the pot.





This is my valve seat to control fresh water entering the system. Used gate valves but I am now thinking I should have gone all ball valves. Gates valves are hard to know if you have them fully shut over the noise of the brewery running.

Cheers

Chap Chap


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## yardy

nice system chappo B) 

without getting too many threads within a thread going, gregs and i were discussing the other day how close to a herms my setup is, if i fabbed up the HE myself ( and any other fab work ), what APPROX cost would i be up for to go full noise herms do you guys think ?

cheers

Dave


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## gregs

Ramp time is also indicative to flow rate. Has anyone ever timed and calculated there flow rate?

Also can someone explain how the temp in the mash tun could ever reach mashout temp, (say 78c) in reasonable time when ramped thru the HERMS- (a 13mm outlet at a given flow rate)) from say, (65 c)? Especially when doing double batches. 

Consider a grain bed at 65c, (no HERMS) how much water and at what temperature would it take to immediately adjust that grain bed to mash out temp 78c. This may seem a silly question but if it takes the HERMS unit ramping at 1 degree per min 13 min to archive mashout temp at the output reading from 65c to78c, then it would be fare to say that the grain bed at 65c would take a bloody long time to adjust. ( I am new to this and know buggar all), but what is it we are measuring, it would seem to me that the dial thermometer in the mash tun would read the highest temperature at the time and that would be the wort. As the actual grain itself may read lower than the fluid temp. Does this sound feasible? 

This is a great subject, 

Cheers.


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## chappo1970

yardy said:


> nice system chappo B)
> 
> without getting too many threads within a thread going, gregs and i were discussing the other day how close to a herms my setup is, if i fabbed up the HE myself ( and any other fab work ), what APPROX cost would i be up for to go full noise herms do you guys think ?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Dave



Love your system Yardy! Been good seeing you inch that together over Christmas.

I have to agree with Gregs you are 9/10th there you have the big bit! The bloody pump.

Ok shopping list and rough pricing.

Pot 11lt BigW $15
Cheapo Jug for element $12
Junction box including some electrical odds and ends $20
TempMate or PID say $75
Bit more plumbing but I bet my cotton socks you already have the bits after your build just laying around.
A waterproof housing control box about $20 for jaycar
Old/new extension lead that is still sound. (Awww honey I cut the extension cord by accident. I'll have to get a new one but not to worry I can use it again in the brewery so it's not a complete waste)
So say less than $150

Have I left anything out guys?

Ball valve and some hoses.

Chap Chap


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## Screwtop

Brewstand





HE and probe placement. My old clunker 15L pot with 3M of coil and jug element, covered with camp mat and car foil sun visor. A new HE is planned 10L pot and 7M of coil with a new jug element through the bottom. Replacing the Mashmate controller with a PID also.




MLT Wort return manifold.........if you could call it that :lol:


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## kirem

here are some pics of my heat exchanger.

~5L
3.6kW controlled by Auberins ramp/soak PID and SSR
float valve to autofill the heatexchanger via solenoid and port on the base
all stainless except the brass gender bender 
drain down port to empty the heatexchanger
T-piece to fit temperature probe
3-way valve on the exit return to mashtun/kettle

View attachment 34577


View attachment 34578


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## gregs

Screwtop, AndrewQld and other experienced brewers could you have a look at post 19 please; I think its a good question.


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## kirem

View attachment 34579


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## kirem

gregs said:


> Ramp time is also indicative to flow rate. Has anyone ever timed and calculated there flow rate?
> 
> Also can someone explain how the temp in the mash tun could ever reach mashout temp, (say 78c) in reasonable time when ramped thru the HERMS- (a 13mm outlet at a given flow rate)) from say, (65 c)? Especially when doing double batches.
> 
> Consider a grain bed at 65c, (no HERMS) how much water and at what temperature would it take to immediately adjust that grain bed to mash out temp 78c. This may seem a silly question but if it takes the HERMS unit ramping at 1 degree per min 13 min to archive mashout temp at the output reading from 65c to78c, then it would be fare to say that the grain bed at 65c would take a bloody long time to adjust. ( I am new to this and know buggar all), but what is it we are measuring, it would seem to me that the dial thermometer in the mash tun would read the highest temperature at the time and that would be the wort. As the actual grain itself may read lower than the fluid temp. Does this sound feasible?
> 
> This is a great subject,
> 
> Cheers.



I did some calcs a couple of years ago, but have forgotten them, they may even be buried on here somewhere

My system has a ramp/soak PID on it and an auto start. my mashtun is doughed in the night before at tap temp and then I have it auto start normally a 3am and by 6.30-7am the mash is sitting happily at 75degC having gone through a number of programmed ramp and soak steps.

From memory the temp in the mashtun ramp in the order of 2deg/min and the temp at the heat exchanger outlet is very quick, probably less than a minute. I am doing a brew later this week during the day, I'll measure the mashtun and heat-ex ramp times

My march pump is not throttled and I do not have any compaction issues


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## glaab

It is a good question, I thought you'd just add water from the HLT to reach mash out.


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## gregs

glaab said:


> It is a good question, I thought you'd just add water from the HLT to reach mash out.




One of my mash profiles is scheduled to ramp thru the HERMS unit after completion of mash - to mashout temps then dump to kettle. 

After that I batch sparge at mashout temp and dump to kettle. 

Its the reason for asking the question. Cheers.


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## kirem

View attachment 34580


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## Screwtop

gregs said:


> Screwtop, AndrewQld and other experienced brewers could you have a look at post 19 please; I think its a good question.



Sorry Gregs but, 

I don't monitor the grain bed temp

Ahhhhh, screaming and pulling my hair ..................relieves tension :lol:


Screwy


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## gregs

kirem said:


> I did some calcs a couple of years ago, but have forgotten them, they may even be buried on here somewhere
> 
> My system has a ramp/soak PID on it and an auto start. my mashtun is doughed in the night before at tap temp and then I have it auto start normally a 3am and by 6.30-7am the mash is sitting happily at 75degC having gone through a number of programmed ramp and soak steps.
> 
> From memory the temp in the mashtun ramp in the order of 2deg/min and the temp at the heat exchanger outlet is very quick, probably less than a minute. I am doing a brew later this week during the day, I'll measure the mashtun and heat-ex ramp times
> 
> My march pump is not throttled and I do not have any compaction issues



Thanks Kirem, this will be good to know, although it will only be indicative to you system but it will shed some light on the possible mash tun lag temps. But as I asked in post #19, during mashout from mash temp to mashout temp what is it the dial thermometer is measuring (in that short time)? The entire mash tun contents or is it the highest temp surrounding the probe fluid or grain or both?


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## gregs

Screwtop said:


> Sorry Gregs but,
> 
> I don't monitor the grain bed temp
> 
> Ahhhhh, screaming and pulling my hair ..................relieves tension :lol:
> 
> 
> Screwy



Screwy you missed the question, sorry.


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## nifty

TidalPete said:


> IMHO the smaller the pot (Less water to heat) & the longer the copper coil the more efficient your HE will be.
> I have 5.7 metres of copper coil inside a 7 litre pot & get a temp rise of 2 deg c\minute.
> Nifty --- HITBH did you manage to cram 8 metres of 1\2" copper coil inside a 7 litre pot?
> 
> TP



Pete, my inlet and outlet are through the lid of the pot so I've got more copper crammed in there, although 8 metres is an estimate. 

I wound it around a paint tin and managed to get no kinks in it. The pot itself sits in half of an old fermentor with expander foam around it for insulation with a kettle element through the bottom. 

Compared to the first class herms seen in this thread, mine looks like Frankensteins monster but it does the job.

nifty


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## Screwtop

Now that I am feeling a little better.................. :lol:

I monitor the wort out of the HE only!!!!! After entering a new temp into the controller I start the timer, so if at mash temp say 66° I enter 77° (for MO step) into the HE controller and set the timer for 15 min as this us usually how long (using my equipment) that it takes for the temp of the wort exiting the HE to rise from 66° to 77°. When the timer goes off I check to see it the temp has reached MO. Sometimes this may take a min or two longer. As soon as the temp reaches MO I give the mash a turn or very light stir and set the timer for 10 min for the MO rest. After the 10 min MO rest, I begin running wort from the MLT to the kettle (gravity) and pump 77°C sparge water from the HLT to the MLT via the HE with the controller set at 80° to maintain temp until the sparge has finished. The flow in is set to match flow out of the MLT to the kettle.

Cheers,

Screwy


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## kirem

If the mashtun is recirculated for long enough (system dependant) the whole system (mashtun, recircualting thin part/ thick part etc) should be at what ever temperature you want. My system automagically ramps and soaks at 40degC/30min, 44/15, 55/15, 61--63/over 40, 70/50 and 75 as long as I want to sparge for, I drain the first runnings and refill, recirculate for 20-30min to dissolve as many sugars as possible with the heatexchanger maintaining a temp of 75 and repeat until I have used all my sparge water

If your crush is correct, it is thin part of the mash that has all the goodies

It is important that you monitor and control the hottest part of the recirculating path. In a HERMS that is at the outlet of the heatexchanger.

If you measure the mash bed it is for information purposes only.


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## gregs

Thank you Screwy, that answers the question in part, but in my system Im not gravity fed from HLT I have one pump to do all the transferring so when the HERMS has ramped mash temp to mashout temp the grain bed at this point has not moved from 66c, so can I at that point start to transfer to kettle via the HERMS unit pre batch sparge?

Sorry for the 20 questions. Cheers.


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## bradsbrew

Chappo I notice you are using tempmate, would a fridgemate work ok? Or does it not control past the 70 degrees? 

Brad


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## sav

bradsbrew said:


> Chappo I notice you are using tempmate, would a fridgemate work ok? Or does it not control past the 70 degrees?
> 
> Brad




Brad the fridgemate is 1deg either way,tempmate is 0.5.


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## TidalPete

nifty said:


> Pete, my inlet and outlet are through the lid of the pot so I've got more copper crammed in there, although 8 metres is an estimate.
> 
> I wound it around a paint tin and managed to get no kinks in it. The pot itself sits in half of an old fermentor with expander foam around it for insulation with a kettle element through the bottom.
> 
> Compared to the first class herms seen in this thread, mine looks like Frankensteins monster but it does the job.
> 
> nifty



Thanks for the reply nifty. I know from experience how awkward & space consuming it is to put your inlet\outlet through the side of the HE. If I ever do another upgrade I'll follow your example & go through the lid. :icon_cheers: 
Don't suppose you have a pic of your inlet\outlet on hand? Just trying to work out how you seal off the holes in the HE lid.

TP


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## chappo1970

Bradsbrew,

Wot Sav plus yeah doesn't go over 70C I needed at least 90C for the HLT and at least up to +80C for the HE. 

I smell someone thinking about another brewery upgrade brad?

Cheers 

Chap Chap


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## Ross

sav said:


> Brad the fridgemate is 1deg either way,tempmate is 0.5.



TempMate is 0.1c  

Cheers Ross


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## bradsbrew

Yeah mate seriously contemplting it. Will take me a couple of months to stash the $ away and build but this thread is a great insite and very timely. Yes i have been able to make reasonable beer on my cheap system but it is very labour intensive. This thread has been great info but if someone could take the time to explain the whole HERMs procedure step by step in detail (hint) it could prompt a few.

Brad


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## Tony

Great idea Chap Chap! Good to see you geting into the brewing stuff!

I built my HERMS about 5 years ago. Back then there was bugger all things like this thread. God i could only wish! I got my ideas from the net..... mostly from german and yank websites.

I had grand planes for stepping up mashes and wired it all up to have it switch between heat and bypass on the HERMS, But alas....... it was never needed. I now just switch it to manual control and use the HERMS coil to maintain mash temp and step my temps with infusions.

I fint its advantages lie in the constant flow of the mash liquor through the grain bed, clearing the liquor and basicly stiring the mash for me, without having to stir it.

I Monitor the temp at the outlet from the mash, the return to the mash after the HERMS and Mid grain bed. What i do is work on averages. If i want to mash at 65, i mash in for 65 deg and when i start recirculating i find i get a 1 or 2 deg drop at the outlet from the mash tun. I then bump up my HLT temp till i get a 1 or 2 deg increase over the core mash temp to maintain an average temp of 65. 

Thats 66 at the top, 65 at the middle and 64 out the bottom. This works really well for me and i can get great reliability with mouth feel and attenuation using this method.

Thats how i use my HERMS. They are like anything..... there are so many ways you can use them. Thats what i love about brewing. If i ever upgrade my brewery, i will build a dedicated HERMS vessel as aposed to using the HLT. I have learnt to use it well but a dedicated vessel would be great.

Cheers

Here is the HERMS part of my brew rig







This is the coil in the HLT. I use a 3600W element and simple on/off control with a temp controller. No need for PID......it hardly moves.






HEre you can see the 3 temp probes... one on the mash tun outlet, one on the return and the old dial one on the far right (not quite visable) thish reads the mash bed temp. The other one is the HLT temp controller.






cheers


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## KHB

I have 5.5 mtrs of copper in 10lt of water but can only manage 2-3.c a minute per degree someone suggested to me to throttle back the flow a bit, is this the norm??

Cheers
KHB


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## manticle

These breweries look great. Completely noob question but how much of it needs to be broken apart and cleaned and how easy/difficult is that?


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## bradsbrew

manticle said:


> These breweries look great. Completely noob question but how much of it needs to be broken apart and cleaned and how easy/difficult is that?



Man I hope its a flush out, boiling water and starsan in the lines till next brewday then boiling water flush before brew and a pull down and clean every Xbrews?

Brad


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## yardy

Chappo said:


> Love your system Yardy! Been good seeing you inch that together over Christmas.
> 
> I have to agree with Gregs you are 9/10th there you have the big bit! The bloody pump.
> 
> Ok shopping list and rough pricing.
> 
> Pot 11lt BigW $15
> Cheapo Jug for element $12
> Junction box including some electrical odds and ends $20
> TempMate or PID say $75
> Bit more plumbing but I bet my cotton socks you already have the bits after your build just laying around.
> A waterproof housing control box about $20 for jaycar
> Old/new extension lead that is still sound. (Awww honey I cut the extension cord by accident. I'll have to get a new one but not to worry I can use it again in the brewery so it's not a complete waste)
> So say less than $150
> 
> Have I left anything out guys?
> 
> Ball valve and some hoses.
> 
> Chap Chap




Thanks Chap, i thought it would be a little more exxy than that, i'm still dialing the new system in *but if* i can get consistency from it then i may not bother going herms.

that poses a question,

what is it that you expect from a HERMS system when you build it, just consistency ?

sorry if thats a little OT 

Cheers

Dave


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## TidalPete

yardy said:


> what is it that you expect from a HERMS system when you build it, just consistency ?
> Cheers
> Dave




That & a piss-easy brewday (Most of the time anyway  )  

TP


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## Tony

I just head up about 20 liters of water to 70 deg and pump it through all the lines. This gets it very clean. No chemicals needed.

Once every 6 months it gets a hit of PBW which i heat to 70 deg and recirc through the pipes. This makes everything shiny clean, beer stone and all.

Iakes ne about an hour to drag the rig out the back, clean it out and put it back together. Very minimal "pulling apart" is needed.

cheers


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## Tony

yardy said:


> what is it that you expect from a HERMS system when you build it, just consistency ?



Consistency yes. You have the power to control whats happening with the mash. You can increase or decrease the flow and regulate temps. It takes a bit to get to know your system, but when you work it out you can control your brewing with fantastic consistancy. I can use US-05, and with the control i have over the mash, can easily get spot on attenuation of 1.006 or 1.010 or 1.012, depending on what i want from the beer. It aids in getting the ballancing act of ballance in the beer right because i can set my bitterness to suit my grain bill and expected attenuation.

The clarification of the mash liquor, slow and steady movement of the mash liquor through the grain to aid conversion...... these are all added bonuses.

cheers


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## nifty

TidalPete said:


> Thanks for the reply nifty. I know from experience how awkward & space consuming it is to put your inlet\outlet through the side of the HE. If I ever do another upgrade I'll follow your example & go through the lid. :icon_cheers:
> Don't suppose you have a pic of your inlet\outlet on hand? Just trying to work out how you seal off the holes in the HE lid.
> 
> TP



It's a bit rough and I'm a bit embarrassed about my setup after seeing the others in this thread but it does the job well. I just cut holes in the lid for the piping to pass through. One day I'll get around to making it pretty.







This is an old photo, I've since made a single tier stand and shortened the hoses joining all the bits and pieces, but the basic configuration is the same.


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## manticle

Tony said:


> I just head up about 20 liters of water to 70 deg and pump it through all the lines. This gets it very clean. No chemicals needed.
> 
> Once every 6 months it gets a hit of PBW which i heat to 70 deg and recirc through the pipes. This makes everything shiny clean, beer stone and all.
> 
> Iakes ne about an hour to drag the rig out the back, clean it out and put it back together. Very minimal "pulling apart" is needed.
> 
> cheers



Good to know. 

Cheers


----------



## TidalPete

Slightly :icon_offtopic: but took off all the silicon hoses last weekend & gave them a good soak with hot water & Napisan. Was amazed at the gunk that came out after only 10\15 minutes soaking as I run PBW through the lines every 5th brewday & thought all was ok.  

Can anyone give me a good reason why Napisan can't be run through the system (Followed by a couple of good flushes with clean, hot water)?
Just wondering as I've never heard of this being done.

TP


----------



## TidalPete

nifty said:


> It's a bit rough and I'm a bit embarrassed about my setup after seeing the others in this thread but it does the job well. I just cut holes in the lid for the piping to pass through. One day I'll get around to making it pretty.
> 
> View attachment 34615
> 
> 
> View attachment 34616
> 
> 
> This is an old photo, I've since made a single tier stand and shortened the hoses joining all the bits and pieces, but the basic configuration is the same.
> 
> View attachment 34617



Thanks nifty. :icon_cheers:
No need to be embarrassed about your rig mate. It does the job for you & you've given me food for thought re the HE. :super: 
I've seen a few flash brewrigs that look pretty but leave a lot to be desired efficiency-wise.

TP


----------



## manticle

nifty said:


> It's a bit rough and I'm a bit embarrassed about my setup




Um.....rigs like that show anyone who thinks they might want to go down that route that it isn't all just unobtainable/unmakeable bling and swank.

Embarassment????? Inspiration is the word. Good stuff.


----------



## Screwtop

gregs said:


> Thank you Screwy, that answers the question in part, but in my system Im not gravity fed from HLT I have one pump to do all the transferring so when the HERMS has ramped mash temp to mashout temp the grain bed at this point has not moved from 66c, so can I at that point start to transfer to kettle via the HERMS unit pre batch sparge?
> 
> Sorry for the 20 questions. Cheers.




Not sure why you can't transfer from MLT to the kettle via gravity and sparge via the pump and HE as others do. In any case, once at MO leave to recirc at MO temp for the rest time (10 min) then start to run to the kettle. While sparging the temp of my grainbed comes up to MO temp but takes 30 plus minutes. Don't sweat it gregs.

Cheers,

Screwy


----------



## Tony

TidalPete said:


> Slightly :icon_offtopic: but took off all the silicon hoses last weekend & gave them a good soak with hot water & Napisan. Was amazed at the gunk that came out after only 10\15 minutes soaking as I run PBW through the lines every 5th brewday & thought all was ok.
> 
> Can anyone give me a good reason why Napisan can't be run through the system (Followed by a couple of good flushes with clean, hot water)?
> Just wondering as I've never heard of this being done.
> 
> TP



I used to use napisan and found i needed to scrub the crap in the kegs to get it off.

THe inside of my hoses started to go brown. I ran PBW through it for 20 min at 70 deg and the water had a layer of brown slime on it. THis was the beer stone from inside the pipes (almost 3 years without chemical cleaning) simply disolving off. I find PBW to be far more effective than Napisan. Made 20 years of grime on a SS baking tray that the most horid oven cleaner wouldnt remove, just melt off like slime. Came up like new.

I now soak all my bake ware in the kettle when i PBW the rig. My mum wants to bring hers over the next time i do it.

I think PBW is the best way to keep the inside of the HERMS coil clean....... from my findings anyway.

cheers


----------



## TidalPete

Thanks Tony. :icon_cheers: 
Perhaps I'm not using the PBW correctly? When I did the baking tray thing it only softened the gunk enough for me to scrape off.  
Use as per the instructions --- 1 teaspoon\2.5 litres water. Maybe it's a bad batch? :unsure: 

TP


----------



## AndrewQLD

Screwtop said:


> Now that I am feeling a little better.................. :lol:
> 
> I monitor the wort out of the HE only!!!!! After entering a new temp into the controller I start the timer, so if at mash temp say 66 I enter 77 (for MO step) into the HE controller and set the timer for 15 min as this us usually how long (using my equipment) that it takes for the temp of the wort exiting the HE to rise from 66 to 77. When the timer goes off I check to see it the temp has reached MO. Sometimes this may take a min or two longer. As soon as the temp reaches MO I give the mash a turn or very light stir and set the timer for 10 min for the MO rest.  Once at MO temp, I begin running wort from the MLT to the kettle (gravity) and pump 80C sparge water from the HLT to the MLT via the HE with the controller set at 80 to maintain temp until the sparge has finished. The flow in is set to match flow out of the MLT to the kettle.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Screwy



So Screwy you do stir the mash at some point, which brings me back to my original comments that the wort isn't flowing through the grain bed when your recirculating which is why your temps between the herms return and the grain bed are differing, if the grain bed is draining evenly then it should have an even temp throughout the bed, but you aren't seeing this, so to my mind the wort from your return is not getting pulled down through the grain bed evenly. 

Andrew


----------



## absinthe

Tony what temp sensors do you use? i wanted to add one more to my herms but the cheapest accurate thing i can find would be a PID controller with a RTD.


----------



## Screwtop

AndrewQLD said:


> So Screwy you do stir the mash at some point, which brings me back to my original comments that the wort isn't flowing through the grain bed when your recirculating which is why your temps between the herms return and the grain bed are differing, if the grain bed is draining evenly then it should have an even temp throughout the bed, but you aren't seeing this, so to my mind the wort from your return is not getting pulled down through the grain bed evenly.
> 
> Andrew




Maybe Andrew, but mash efficiency indicates good even flow. Introduced the stir ages ago due to this problem trying to even up temp between top and bottom of the mash. Am sure it's the thermometer indicating the wrong temp at this stage until I test by replacing the thermometer with a probe. Could also be due to the slow rate of flow that I use, my mash is very open and the grist floats around but after 60 min it has set a little on the bottom due to flow so I still give a turn with the mash paddle after ramping to MO. Only a 10 min MO rest, so the grist is nice and open ready for sparge. Are you using a MM thermometer in your tun? and at what depth is it in the tun, mine is about 120mm from the bottom of the tun.

Cheers,

Screwy


----------



## Screwtop

TidalPete said:


> Thanks Tony. :icon_cheers:
> Perhaps I'm not using the PBW correctly? When I did the baking tray thing it only softened the gunk enough for me to scrape off.
> Use as per the instructions --- 1 teaspoon\2.5 litres water. Maybe it's a bad batch? :unsure:
> 
> TP




Pete, I use PBW to clean my gear, I don't use it at recommended strength, bit of a guestimate, tip about 2 tablespoons in 12L and pump through everything for 30 min. Lots of brown crud comes out, but it doesn't get the brown stain out of my silicon hoses.

Screwy


----------



## TidalPete

Screwy might have something there Andrew? What's your liquor to grain ratio? IMHO loose is best with a HERMES. 
Mine is 3.25:1 & never stir except at mashin & always have the recirculation going full bore. Efficiency in the tun is always in the 90's. I don't worry too much about the MashMaster reading.

TP


----------



## TidalPete

Screwtop said:


> Pete, I use PBW to clean my gear, I don't use it at recommended strength, bit of a guestimate, tip about 2 tablespoons in 12L and pump through everything for 30 min. Lots of brown crud comes out, but it doesn't get the brown stain out of my silicon hoses.
> 
> Screwy



Just saw this & thanks for your reply Screwy. I think I'll try your dosage next time. That brown "stain" in your silicon hoses could well be a film? Have you tried soaking them in Napisan like I mentioned above? Take heart! Will start the ball rolling for the 100% stuff in a day or two.  

TP


----------



## AndrewQLD

Screwtop said:


> Maybe Andrew, but mash efficiency indicates good even flow. Introduced the stir ages ago due to this problem trying to even up temp between top and bottom of the mash. Am sure it's the thermometer indicating the wrong temp at this stage until I test by replacing the thermometer with a probe. Could also be due to the slow rate of flow that I use, my mash is very open and the grist floats around but after 60 min it has set a little on the bottom due to flow so I still give a turn with the mash paddle after ramping to MO. Only a 10 min MO rest, so the grist is nice and open ready for sparge. Are you using a MM thermometer in your tun? and at what depth is it in the tun, mine is about 120mm from the bottom of the tun.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Screwy



I have a Teltru dial thermometer that sits 150mm from the bottom and extends about 100mm into the mash tun, from your description above Screwy we do thing slightly differently that probably accounts for the differences we are seeing.
I don't stir before draining the tun because my grain bed is the same temp as the reading from the Herms exit and my flow rates are reasonably fast, at a guess I'd say >2lt/min.



TidalPete said:


> Screwy might have something there Andrew? What's your liquor to grain ratio? IMHO loose is best with a HERMES.
> Mine is 3.25:1 & never stir except at mashin & always have the recirculation going full bore. Efficiency in the tun is always in the 90's. I don't worry too much about the MashMaster reading.
> 
> TP




And here's another difference I do only 2 water additions. mash in and sparge making sure my run offs are of equal volume so my l/kg ratio at mash in is usually up around the 4l/kg ratio. Perhaps that is making a difference.

It's interesting how many slight differences there are in each different system.

Andrew


----------



## chappo1970

I have been using 100% Sodium Perc and PBW. Use the 100% as a general everyday cleaner and use the PBW to give it a good clean. 100% Sod Perc was about $5kg in bulk (20kg pack) where PBW is $50 for 1.8kg. The Sod Perc does a great job but the PBW must have other compounds and detergents in there to help shift the stubborn stuff.

Chap Chap


----------



## Screwtop

TidalPete said:


> Just saw this & thanks for your reply Screwy. I think I'll try your dosage next time. That brown "stain" in your silicon hoses could well be a film? Have you tried soaking them in Napisan like I mentioned above? Take heart! Will start the ball rolling for the 100% stuff in a day or two.
> 
> TP




Will get my hoses in a bucket of Napisan today and leave them to soak, ta Pete.


----------



## Screwtop

AndrewQLD said:


> I have a Teltru dial thermometer that sits 150mm from the bottom and extends about 100mm into the mash tun, from your description above Screwy we do thing slightly differently that probably accounts for the differences we are seeing.
> I don't stir before draining the tun because my grain bed is the same temp as the reading from the Herms exit and my flow rates are reasonably fast, at a guess I'd say >2lt/min.



Teltru.........nice. They've been around a long time. Was going to order one years ago about the time the MM thermometer became available, hmmmm.




AndrewQLD said:


> And here's another difference I do only 2 water additions. mash in and sparge making sure my run offs are of equal volume so my l/kg ratio at mash in is usually up around the 4l/kg ratio. Perhaps that is making a difference.
> 
> It's interesting how many slight differences there are in each different system.
> 
> Andrew



Thats what provides the diversity in our beers, great hey! Always amused when talking to other brewers who use exactly the same kit, usually their processes vary widely. Three cheers for the little difference, like titties :lol:


Screwy


----------



## Thirsty Boy

I'm in Screwy's camp - I have a thermometer in the mash.. but don't really care what it says. I do all my figuring from the wort return temperature.

I reckon Screwy gets a differential between return temp and mash temp because of his slow rate of circulation... I have tried a bunch of different flow rates, and have noticed the variation between wort flow temp and grain bed temp is highest when the flow rate is low - also that the differential between top and bottom of the mash is the same ... higher when flow rate is low.

Makes no difference mind you, you measure from whatever point you choose, stick with it and tweak your tempertures to reflect your results. The only time it matters even vaguely is if you are trying to tell someone else your recipe.

Here's my mash graph for my first brew in my new BB mash tun - These days I normally only graph the wort temp, but because now I have a dial thermo, its a lot easier to compare the return temp to the mash temp, and this was a first run, so I took notice.

Wort return temp in Blue - Dial thermo in Red( probe a bit higher up than halfway point in the grainbed, lower than halfway if you include the liquid level). 3:1 L:G and no stirring after mash in.



btw - dial thermo and wort return were calibrated to match when the system was recirculating water only at full throttle and allowed time to steady out, so temp differences are real and not a factor of any calibration differences or suchlike.

A you can see, the grain bed temp lags behind the wort return temp, but eventually catches up - I use a PID controlled RIMS not a HERMS though and my return wort temp comes up _very_ quickly - 13 in 5 minutes on the graph, but it was pretty much at temp even faster than that, its just that I didn't take my first reading till 5mins. So its natural that the bed would take a chunk longer than that. I suspect a slightly closer match between the two lines when I can bring myself to whack the lid on and not watch whats going on obsessively... give me a couple more brews.

Still, as I said, I don't care about the bed temperature - and once I have gotten a better feel for this new configuration, I will stop monitoring it completely. Probably pull the dial thermo out of the tun altogether and find something else to do with it.

TB


----------



## Screwtop

Screwtop said:


> Will get my hoses in a bucket of Napisan today and leave them to soak, ta Pete.




Well here they are, have been soaking for a few hrs now. Nothing seems to be moving. Oh oh just read Pete's post he used hot water, back to the start!


----------



## RussTaylor

Screwtop said:


> Well here they are, have been soaking for a few hrs now. Nothing seems to be moving. Oh oh just read Pete's post he used hot water, back to the start!



A hose that I used to use to transfer wort from the mash to kettle is brown. I soaked it in hot napisan for 24+hrs and it didn't budge. I even got a bit of chux and pushed it through the tubing with a bit of wire and it didn't budge.


----------



## Gout

I installed all new hose's on my brew rig and after one brew the hoses are a light brown. I assume wort has stained the plastic and maybe soaked into the plastic. I used PBW hot straight after the brew and that didnt help so i gave up and living with it.


----------



## chappo1970

Has any body got or can give advice on a continuious mash stirrer. I think randyrob has one in his halfluck brewery? Is it worth considering guys?

I'm very seriously contemplating fabricating one up for the brewery as the next upgrade.

Chap Chap


----------



## TidalPete

Chappo said:


> Has any body got or can give advice on a continuious mash stirrer. I think randyrob has one in his halfluck brewery? Is it worth considering guys?
> 
> I'm very seriously contemplating fabricating one up for the brewery as the next upgrade.
> 
> Chap Chap



No information ATM Chappo (Although I may have some filed away somewhere) but do you really need a mash stirrer when the wort is constantly being recirculated through the grain bed & doing essentially the same thing?

TP


----------



## chappo1970

TidalPete said:


> No information ATM Chappo (Although I may have some filed away somewhere) but do you really need a mash stirrer when the wort is constantly being recirculated through the grain bed & doing essentially the same thing?
> 
> TP




No not while mashing Pete. Although I can't see why not? More at dough in and was thinking along the lines of MO and sparge to give those grains a good thorough rinse. I'm more than happy with my consistant 85% eff and always hitting targets but just more or less seeking the little edge. Plus the kids are away with the Outlaws for 2 weeks so I have some spare time on my hands to do a little more development work.

Would be grateful as always if you could dig up that info thou TP. :icon_cheers: 

Chap Chap


----------



## TidalPete

Chappo said:


> No not while mashing Pete. Although I can't see why not? More at dough in and was thinking along the lines of MO and sparge to give those grains a good thorough rinse. I'm more than happy with my consistant 85% eff and always hitting targets but just more or less seeking the little edge. Plus the kids are away with the Outlaws for 2 weeks so I have some spare time on my hands to do a little more development work.
> 
> Would be grateful as always if you could dig up that info thou TP. :icon_cheers:
> 
> Chap Chap



I might have something. :unsure: No promises but.

FYI I recirculate from the moment I mash in (The only time I stir the mash) to MO. 
MO to me = Recirculating at MO temp for 10 minutes, sitting for 10 minutes, then recirculating until clear before adding to kettle.

TP


----------



## chappo1970

Pretty much my procedure as well TP. As I said it's not a need just a wankers desire to endlessly tweak and f#ck around with the brewery cause I can


----------



## KHB

KHB said:


> I have 5.5 mtrs of copper in 10lt of water but can only manage 2-3.c a minute per degree someone suggested to me to throttle back the flow a bit, is this the norm??
> 
> Cheers
> KHB




Sine noone answered this one i worked it out for myself today. I reduced my flow at ramping time to a slow trickle and went from a degree every 2 minutes to every 50 secs to a minute, was stocked!

Cheers
KHB


----------



## AndrewQLD

KHB said:


> Sine noone answered this one i worked it out for myself today. I reduced my flow at ramping time to a slow trickle and went from a degree every 2 minutes to every 50 secs to a minute, was stocked!
> 
> Cheers
> KHB



The trade off there is it will take you a lot longer to get your whole volume wort through.
There is a balance between circulation speed, herms design and temp ramp speed and it can take a bit of fiddling to get it right.

Andrew


----------



## gregs

AndrewQLD said:


> I have a Teltru dial thermometer that sits 150mm from the bottom and extends about 100mm into the mash tun, from your description above Screwy we do thing slightly differently that probably accounts for the differences we are seeing.
> I don't stir before draining the tun because my grain bed is the same temp as the reading from the Herms exit and my flow rates are reasonably fast, at a guess I'd say >2lt/min.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here's another difference I do only 2 water additions. mash in and sparge making sure my run offs are of equal volume so my l/kg ratio at mash in is usually up around the 4l/kg ratio. Perhaps that is making a difference.
> 
> It's interesting how many slight differences there are in each different system.
> 
> Andrew



Andrew and all other experienced herms brewers, is the water to grain ratio all that important. I ask this question because when recirculating thru your herms the grain bed gets pulled down to some degree. And if that is the case then you would have a percentage of that fluid on top of the grain. Not actually mixing with it when recirculating. Just another PITA question that will no doubt cause debate, but thats what its al about. Cheers.


----------



## gregs

AndrewQLD said:


> The trade off there is it will take you a lot longer to get your whole volume wort through.
> There is a balance between circulation speed, herms design and temp ramp speed and it can take a bit of fiddling to get it right.
> 
> Andrew




Andrew, what you have quoted here is why I ask the question; having the same mash profile as you and when doing double batches is it ok to ramp to mashout temp then dump to kettle via the herms before the grain bed reaches the mashout temp, then sparge at the right temp to raise the grain bed to mashout temp? I hope I have made myself clear.


----------



## AndrewQLD

gregs said:


> Andrew and all other experienced herms brewers, is the water to grain ratio all that important. I ask this question because when recirculating thru your herms the grain bed gets pulled down to some degree. And if that is the case then you would have a percentage of that fluid on top of the grain. Not actually mixing with it when recirculating. Just another PITA question that will no doubt cause debate, but that's what it's al about. Cheers.



Greg in my mind, and I'm happy to debate this as I could be wrong, what you have described above is exactly how I like my mash to run, with one exception. With the correct coarse crush or the judicious use of hulls you should get a good even flow down from the top where the wort is returned, through the grain bed and out the bottom to the herms, and that's why I think the grain bed temps should correspond fairly closely to the wort return temp.



gregs said:


> Andrew, what you have quoted here is why I ask the question; having the same mash profile as you and when doing double batches is it ok to ramp to mashout temp then dump to kettle via the herms before the grain bed reaches the mashout temp, then sparge at the right temp to raise the grain bed to mashout temp? I hope I have made myself clear.



Yes that is Ok, if your sparge water is hot enough it will raise the grain bed to mash out temps so if your concerned that the grain bed is sitting at a lower temp then you needn't worry, it won't hurt the brew at all and it would be only sitting for a few minutes anyway before the sparge water raises it's temp.

My prattling on in previous posts is not really directed towards getting the grain bed to mash out temps but more at trying to work out why people have problems getting the grain bed temps in sync with their herms return temps.

Cheers
Andrew

By the way Greg, the hulls worked a treat  .


----------



## Screwtop

Screwtop said:


> Well here they are, have been soaking for a few hrs now. Nothing seems to be moving. Oh oh just read Pete's post he used hot water, back to the start!
> 
> View attachment 34651




After soaking in hot water with Napisan they were clean, with the exception of the hoses and hop sock that are used with boiling. Too much to ask of the Napisan  

Screwy


----------



## TidalPete

Chappo said:


> Pretty much my procedure as well TP. As I said it's not a need just a wankers desire to endlessly tweak and f#ck around with the brewery cause I can



Just gone through my stuff Chappo & sorry to say I can't find anything to help you.  
BUT I have found a little information on HERMES & RIMS that may be of help to others? ---- View attachment Hermes.pdf


TP


----------



## Tony

Chappo said:


> Has any body got or can give advice on a continuious mash stirrer. I think randyrob has one in his halfluck brewery? Is it worth considering guys?
> 
> I'm very seriously contemplating fabricating one up for the brewery as the next upgrade.
> 
> Chap Chap



Chappo...... Im thinking of tryling some sort of reverse mash recirc to lkeep the mash bed fluid. Id say its been done before, but i plan to make some sort of mash basket/false top out of SS mesh and float it on the top of the mash. Drawing chunky free liquor from this and returning it to the bottom of the mash to keep it floating and stiring. Then with 20 min to go in the mash i reverse the flow and set the bed on the FB to clear the wort before running to the kettle.

ITs just an idea ATM but one i have had for a while now.




gregs said:


> Andrew and all other experienced herms brewers, is the water to grain ratio all that important. I ask this question because when recirculating thru your herms the grain bed gets pulled down to some degree. And if that is the case then you would have a percentage of that fluid on top of the grain. Not actually mixing with it when recirculating. Just another PITA question that will no doubt cause debate, but thats what its al about. Cheers.



As far as i know....... most of the enzymes that work on the starches in the mash are actually washed into the mash liquor. This is why you boil mostly grain in a decoction, it breaks down the grain and reduced the enzymes that will be denatured by the boil, helping with conversion. So i guess its mostly the liquor on top of the mash you want to look after. Only my theory..... open to comment!

As per earlier comments re. removing the mid mash probe.....i have been seriously considering it latly as i guage whats going on bu exit and return temps in the mash. As i said before....... i use this to average the temp. If its out at 63 and back in at 65 it must be 64 mid mash. I always use the same slow recirc speed and get repeatable results with this. Im not game to change my system to get a better heat exchange rate, as i will have to re-learn my system.

cheers

cheers


----------



## TidalPete

Screwtop said:


> After soaking in hot water with Napisan they were clean, with the exception of the hoses and hop sock that are used with boiling. Too much to ask of the Napisan
> 
> Screwy



Bad luck Screwy but I think I mentioned in my post that IF that brown "stain" in your hoses was actually a brown film then the Napisan would fix it as it fixed mine. Next time I clean the hoses I'll take a pic & you'll see what I mean. Maybe that 100% Sodium Perc will do a better job?
As for the hopsock, It took a few days soaking in PBW ( 1 tsp\2.5 litres) plus a good scrub to unblock mine but those hops have stained it permanently. Not that that matters at all.

TP


----------



## gregs

AndrewQLD said:


> Greg in my mind, and I'm happy to debate this as I could be wrong, what you have described above is exactly how I like my mash to run, with one exception. With the correct coarse crush or the judicious use of hulls you should get a good even flow down from the top where the wort is returned, through the grain bed and out the bottom to the herms, and that's why I think the grain bed temps should correspond fairly closely to the wort return temp.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes that is Ok, if your sparge water is hot enough it will raise the grain bed to mash out temps so if your concerned that the grain bed is sitting at a lower temp then you needn't worry, it won't hurt the brew at all and it would be only sitting for a few minutes anyway before the sparge water raises it's temp.
> 
> My prattling on in previous posts is not really directed towards getting the grain bed to mash out temps but more at trying to work out why people have problems getting the grain bed temps in sync with their herms return temps.
> 
> Cheers
> Andrew
> 
> By the way Greg, the hulls worked a treat  .



Thanks Andrew; let me suggest firstly that you are not prattling on. The questions I have asked previously were indirect; this was in order t start a debate so as I could form an opinion on mash profiles in regards to herms brewing, I Apologise for that, sorry guys dont take offence but when talking to the experienced there are so many answers to the one question; that in their own right are all correct. At this level of brewing it can become confusing to a newbie like me when dialling in a new system. I guess that makes me guilty of diving in to the deep end. Anyhow your answers and others in this thread have helped me no end in helping me understand my system. 

Lets keep learning. Cheers.


----------



## chappo1970

Tony said:


> Chappo...... Im thinking of tryling some sort of reverse mash recirc to lkeep the mash bed fluid. Id say its been done before, but i plan to make some sort of mash basket/false top out of SS mesh and float it on the top of the mash. Drawing chunky free liquor from this and returning it to the bottom of the mash to keep it floating and stiring. Then with 20 min to go in the mash i reverse the flow and set the bed on the FB to clear the wort before running to the kettle.
> 
> ITs just an idea ATM but one i have had for a while now.



I like the idea Tony. I'm trying to visualize the concept. So your using the top screen to push the grainbed down and drawing liquor off the top?

Chap Chap


----------



## AndrewQLD

Tony said:


> As far as i know....... most of the enzymes that work on the starches in the mash are actually washed into the mash liquor. This is why you boil mostly grain in a decoction, it breaks down the grain and reduced the enzymes that will be denatured by the boil, helping with conversion. So i guess its mostly the liquor on top of the mash you want to look after. Only my theory..... open to comment!
> 
> 
> cheers
> 
> cheers



No argument from me Tony, makes perfect sense, but I am talking about the other stuff in the grains that the enzymes are there to convert, surely there are still starches trapped in the grain bed that would benefit from having that enzyme soaked wort flowing through.

Andrew


----------



## gregs

gregs said:


> Thanks Andrew; let me suggest firstly that you are not prattling on. The questions I have asked previously were indirect; this was in order t start a debate so as I could form an opinion on mash profiles in regards to herms brewing, I Apologise for that, sorry guys don't take offence but when talking to the experienced there are so many answers to the one question; that in their own right are all correct. At this level of brewing it can become confusing to a newbie like me when dialling in a new system. I guess that makes me guilty of diving in to the deep end. Anyhow your answers and others in this thread have helped me no end in helping me understand my system.
> 
> Let's keep learning. Cheers.




Tony your reverse recirculation just about answers it all in one. Great thought .


----------



## Sully

Chap Chap, If you can vaguely recall we were talking about motorised stirrers a while ago. I was specifically looking at putting one in the hlt. One of the better ideas I came across for the motor was a Spit Roast Motor. Look at one with a bit of grunt compared to the ones that you get from BBQ Galore/Bunnies which are rated for about 4kg-6kg. Evilbay have a few different sorts up to 16kg. 

Food for thought.


----------



## Screwtop

TidalPete said:


> Just gone through my stuff Chappo & sorry to say I can't find anything to help you.
> BUT I have found a little information on HERMES & RIMS that may be of help to others? ---- View attachment 34652
> 
> 
> TP



Chappo, have seen a few mash stirring setups. Zwickel has a micro version of the typical German brewery system using continuous stirring. Seem to remember AndrewQld was thinking of going down that track a couple of years back, as I was, still have the car windscreen wiper motor in the shed, but never completed the project. Mt Tamborine Brewery uses a czeck brewery system that is set up for decoctions and has a variation on mash rakes that are a bit like propellor blades, these can be reversed so that the mash rises and a thin pull can be taken from the bottom of the tun to be heated and later returned, a thick pull can be taken while the blades are turning as normal for a thick decoction. Pretty sure there were a few AHB'ers using motorised mash rakes also.

Cheers,

Screwy


----------



## chappo1970

Sully said:


> Chap Chap, If you can vaguely recall we were talking about motorised stirrers a while ago. I was specifically looking at putting one in the hlt. One of the better ideas I came across for the motor was a Spit Roast Motor. Look at one with a bit of grunt compared to the ones that you get from BBQ Galore/Bunnies which are rated for about 4kg-6kg. Evilbay have a few different sorts up to 16kg.
> 
> Food for thought.




I'll stand corrected but I thought we were talking about them in the HE to eliminate thermoclines?

I was more thinking this type of deal (randyrobs - Halfluck brewery)

http://www.halfluck.com/automation/habs

Chap Chap


----------



## Tony

Chappo said:


> I like the idea Tony. I'm trying to visualize the concept. So your using the top screen to push the grainbed down and drawing liquor off the top?
> 
> Chap Chap



Yep!

And people.......... its just a concept!

I have a fine SS mesh basket i used to use for boiling hop flowers... until i found the more hop flowers the better... and they didnt fit in there any more. I guess i could use it for a trial. But that will mean replubing my system, which isnt easy. I may have to start seriously thinking about a full rebuild, with improvements.

No 1 would be a new 100 liter kettle with a false false bottom and No 2 would be a seperate HERMS vessel. Im not really convinced on RIMS after seeing the problems with build up on elements ect.



AndrewQLD said:


> No argument from me Tony, makes perfect sense, but I am talking about the other stuff in the grains that the enzymes are there to convert, surely there are still starches trapped in the grain bed that would benefit from having that enzyme soaked wort flowing through.
> 
> Andrew



Oh yes i aggree, and i wasnt saying that it shouldnt flow through.

I was more thinking that if a lot of the enzymes were in the liquor hovering over the grain bed, then maintaining its temp would be benificial towards getting the finnished producy your after with your chosen mash temp. I was assuming still recircing thus still passing this liquor through the grain bed, constantly moving enzymes through the grain bed.

This is what i see as the main win win feature of a HERMS system, even if only using to maintain temps...... or step them, it doesnt matter. Its the movement of liquor over grain!

Chappo........ i kind of think this theory makes your mash stirrer redundent! Isnt that the idea of a stirrer..... to move create movement between the grain and the mash liquor? And from my limited knowledge..... these stirer's in large breweries move fairly slowly anyway....... basicly replicating what we have with a HERMS system! I think we have the advantage actually, on a small scale. much easier to control whats going on. It all depends on your system design and efficiency.

I cant see a mechanical stirrer improving your beer mate........... have you seen a mechanical stirrer bulk buy????? not many are using them..... that says something.

I say improve you HERMS and other system components before you waste your money.


----------



## chappo1970

Tony said:


> Chappo........ i kind of think this theory makes your mash stirrer redundent! Isnt that the idea of a stirrer..... to move create movement between the grain and the mash liquor? And from my limited knowledge..... these stirer's in large breweries move fairly slowly anyway....... basicly replicating what we have with a HERMS system! I think we have the advantage actually, on a small scale. much easier to control whats going on. It all depends on your system design and efficiency.
> 
> I cant see a mechanical stirrer improving your beer mate........... have you seen a mechanical stirrer bulk buy????? not many are using them..... that says something.
> 
> I say improve you HERMS and other system components before you waste your money.




Yep fair enough (throws partly built stirrer in the funked parts bin  ). BUT I still think having the liquor and grist slowly stirred would have to give improved thermal mass thru the whole grain bed plus exposing more of the grist to the enzymes. Or am I barking way up the wrong tree here?

Chap Chap


----------



## Tony

Whats the difference between moving the grain in the liquor and moving the liquor through the grain?

Happy to be corected but it all sounds the same to me

cheers


----------



## chappo1970

Tony said:


> Whats the difference between moving the grain in the liquor and moving the liquor through the grain?
> 
> Happy to be corected but it all sounds the same to me
> 
> cheers




Swishing action? :lol: 

Ok i get your point.

Chap Chap


----------



## sav

CHAPPO have you got the dec issue of BYO look at energren brewing they have made the mash stir with plastic rakes attached to the lower blades brush against the false bottom and keep it from getting clogged.


----------



## chappo1970

sav said:


> CHAPPO have you got the dec issue of BYO look at energren brewing they have made the mash stir with plastic rakes attached to the lower blades brush against the false bottom and keep it from getting clogged.




No I haven't  . Anyone out there game to scan it and perhaps email it to me?

Thanks Sav for the pick up thou?

Chap Chap


----------



## sav

google energren brewing


----------



## newguy

I built my HERMS from scratch, including the control unit (I'm an electrical engineer). A schematic of my system is below:





I start by heating my strike water in the lauter tun. The lauter tun is a 64l aluminum pot and it is fitted with a 1500W electric heating element. The lauter tun also contains a temperature sensor. When my target temperature is reached, I pump the water into the mash tun, via the heat exchanger. The mash tun contains the dry grist before the water is pumped in. I find that I don't get any clumping (starch balls) at all with this technique. I always choose an initial strike water temperature which will result in a mash temperature which is below my target because 1) I can't be bothered to try and hit it dead on, and 2) the system gets it up to the proper temperature quickly enough for my tastes. I actually strive for a rather low strike temperature when I brew wheat beers, as the time the mash spends at the lower temperature is a rather good protein rest (for my tastes anyway).

The heat exchanger also contains a 1500W electric heating element. The HE contains a (roughly) 8m long coil of 9.5mm ID copper tubing - the ID of all the other hoses in the system is 12.7mm. The reason for this mismatch is that 1) my pump's fittings are 12.7mm and 2) the coil is actually my recycled immersion chiller I had built many years before. I didn't want to buy a large quantity of 12.7mm ID copper tubing when I built the system when I had an acceptable alternative on hand ($$$). The HE holds 6l of water.

The reason I employ 1500W elements and not higher power elements is that I'm powering the entire system with ordinary (for north america) 120V outlets. I could have designed the system for higher power 240V elements but then I would have had to tear apart my basement to put in a dedicated 240V circuit for it. I couldn't be bothered with doing that, especially given how much I hate doing drywall repairs.

The mash tun is fitted with a false bottom and also contains a temperature sensor. It is also a 64l aluminum pot. All vessels and hoses have been insulated.

Once the initial strike water has been pumped into the mash tun, I set the valves to recirculate and start recirculating. The system then brings the mash temperature up to the target and holds it there. I hold this temperature for 60 minutes, then the system ramps it to 75C for mash out. Once mash out has been reached, the mash tun is drained to my kettle. While this is occurring, my sparge water is heating to 75C in the lauter tun. When the mash tun is drained, the sparge water is pumped into the mash tun. Once the water has been transferred, the system is set to recirculate again. I recirculate until the mash temperature comes back up to 75C, then I drain into the kettle again. This is a modified batch sparge technique - I don't fly sparge. I brew ~40l batches and an typical 1.050ish OG brew requires about 63l of water, which I split about evenly between the initial infusion and the sparge. I normally get 85-90% efficiency for a 1.050-1.060 OG brew. Efficiency drops when the OG rises above about 1.060 or so. I get about 70-75% for a 1.090ish OG.

The extra valves in the lines dowstream of the lauter and mash tuns were installed so that each vessel could be removed without having to shut down or drain the system.

I don't measure the temperature at the outflow of the heat exchanger because 1) given my system it's a pain in the ass to do and 2) I'm more concerned with my bulk mash temperature. I know some of you will point out that my outflow will be hotter than my main mash temperature but given that I measure the temperature of my HE, the outflow can't be higher than that. During normal operation, the max delta T is approx 2 - 2.5C. I can live with that. The temperature sensors are each mounted in a thermowell (hollow copper tube). The sensors are LM35 ICs, and can't come into contact with liquid. The thermowells aren't permanently fixed into the vessels; aluminum & copper don't "like" each other and once again, I just couldn't be bothered installing them permanently.

The lauter tun's lid is fitted with a motorised stirrer. Nothing fancy, just a scavenged electrical motor bodged to a piece of coat hanger. I use an ordinary dimmer switch to control its speed. When I first built the system I included a stirrer in the HE, but given the heat and time it was running, the motor seized. To be honest, the system is actually more stable since the HE's motor stopped working. What I mean by this is that the controller hits and maintains the set temperature with less of an over/undershoot. In fact, it's practically nonexistent now.

I do not have a mash stirrer, nor do I need one. The wort recirculation achieves the same thing.

I wrote an article about my system for a magazine a few years ago. I think that posting the article is probably contrary to the rules but we'll just keep that to ourselves, shall we?  Here it is: View attachment 2606016.pdf


For those of you inclined to create your own PID controller, the excel worksheet I created to help me tune the system may help you: View attachment pid_workbook.xls
I also recommend that you read PID Without A PhD by Tim Westcott.

I think I'm near my post limit regarding attachments, so I'll save the pictures for the next post.


----------



## newguy

The system as a whole. Mash tun on left, HE in the middle, lauter tun on the right. Control unit up above the HE, pump below.




Closeup of a temperature sensor. Each sensor is smeared with heatsink compound and installed in a copper thermowell.

For more pictures, have a look at the pdf in the previous post.

Any questions, just ask.


----------



## chappo1970

Awesome post NewGuy! Thanks for sharing all that great information on your rig and other supporting info. Kudos to you  

Chap Chap


----------



## AndrewQLD

Nice post indeed newguy, thanks for the reading, any chance you have a guide for your excel spread sheet?

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Tony said:


> Whats the difference between moving the grain in the liquor and moving the liquor through the grain?
> 
> Happy to be corected but it all sounds the same to me
> 
> cheers



Not a lot really. Perhaps you are less likely to get dead spaces as a result of channeling, so the enzymes have access to all the grain, but its not like stirrers are perfect either.

Basically a HERMS or a RIMS is a way to distribute heat and enzymes evenly through a mash tun - and thats what a stirred mash tun is as well. RIMS or HERMS is pretty much a homebrewer compromise to give you what you get in a heated stirred mash tun + the added bonus of it also being your lauter tun and saving you a discrete re-circulation step (depending on your process I guess)

At a guess, I'd say you would eek maybe a tiny bit extra efficiency out of a fully stirred tun vs a re-circulating system, but probably only on the same order or less than the improvement you get from a re-circ system vs a static system. Just because of the sheer physicality of the stirring action for starch access purposes. Perhaps a bit faster conversion too??? Once again, not much diff and I am only really guessing.

I like your reverse pumping idea - not sure if it will work because I think a filter bed might form on the outside of your top drawing point and restrict the flow... but I reckon its probably doable if you are determined. Best solution would be a pump capable of transferring solids and to just pump the entire slurry. You'd have to pay some attention to the dynamic of the returning wort/slurry in either case, or you would get "piles" of grain that collected in eddies and calm spots and that would be the same as dead flow zones in a HERMS. I think you'd almost need to combine the reverse pumping with constant stirring - in which case you might as well just direct heat.........

A lot of these issues are solved by the notion of separate mash and lauter tuns. Agitation, conversion, stirring, heating etc all take place in one vessel - transfer to a separate vessel for re-circ and sparge. Its a hell of a lot easier to set up stirrers etc in a simple pot with direct heat than in a combined MLT with all sorts of crap hanging out of the bottom. Its not like you even need an "extra" pot -- all we re-circulating brewers have one of those anyway in our heat ex vessels. 4 is 4 - just an alternative arrangement.


----------



## newguy

AndrewQLD said:


> Nice post indeed newguy, thanks for the reading, any chance you have a guide for your excel spread sheet?



It was an attempt to model the thermal behaviour of the system so that I could come up with a good 1st guess of the PID coefficients. P = proportional, I = integral, D = derivative.

The system properties are at the top left. Volume of water, grain, etc. along with heater power (watts), start temp (F), end (target) temp (F). I grew up using Celcius but all the homebrewing books were in F when I started, so that's what I use. My system takes data points once per second, so that's why the spreadsheet is set up the way it is.

Moving to the right are terms used in the calculations. At time 0, the temp is the start temp and the various terms in the PID calc are laid out from there. The overall gain must be limited because in my system, it can vary from 0 (off) to 63 (full power). If you read the pdf it is explained in detail why this is. So if the overall gain is >63, it is limited (clipped) to 63 since that's my maximum.

Moving down the table you can see how the temperature changes with time. By playing with the PID coefficients (the gains) at the left, you can see how the overall system response changes.


----------



## chappo1970

Been trawling thru old posts trying to find the name of the company here in Queensland that sells 2400-3600W immersion elements <_< . Like this http://www.helios.com.au/Bobbins/bobbins.html but not ceramic and not a bobbin. This type is about $500. Can anyone help?

Chap Chap


----------



## Sully

Chappo said:


> Been trawling thru old posts trying to find the name of the company here in Queensland that sells 2400-3600W immersion elements <_< . Like this http://www.helios.com.au/Bobbins/bobbins.html but not ceramic and not a bobbin. This type is about $500. Can anyone help?
> 
> Chap Chap






Stokes Appliance Parts??


----------



## chappo1970

Sully said:


> Stokes Appliance Parts??




 Thanks Sully


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Chappo said:


> Been trawling thru old posts trying to find the name of the company here in Queensland that sells 2400-3600W immersion elements <_< . Like this http://www.helios.com.au/Bobbins/bobbins.html but not ceramic and not a bobbin. This type is about $500. Can anyone help?
> 
> Chap Chap



jjeffrey recently converted to RIMS and got a custom 2400W low density element made - I seem to recall it being less than $500

Heres the thread

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...c=39523&hl=

TB


----------



## Tony

Chappo said:


> Swishing action? :lol:



Chappo's next mash Tun upgrade


----------



## Sully

Chappo said:


> Thanks Sully





Actually its this one I was thinking of - same company different branch - my bad


Stokes Synertec



But these guys may be worth looking at as well

Cynebar

Thermal Electric




No Affiliation yada yada


----------



## antains

Chappo said:


> Just wanted to ask and guage whether there would be much interest from the HERMies AHBers out there in having a dedicated HERMS thread where we can discuss our systems, procedures, set ups, theories, problems and solutions without the clouding banter that seems to creep into nearly every thread. I'm probably more guilty than some for that. Anyway before starting the thread I thought it wise to maybe open the floor to maybe set down some rules of the thread as well so we can get what we want out of it.




Yes please.

( now to read the whole thread )


----------



## Franko

Chappo said:


> Has any body got or can give advice on a continuious mash stirrer. I think randyrob has one in his halfluck brewery? Is it worth considering guys?
> 
> I'm very seriously contemplating fabricating one up for the brewery as the next upgrade.
> 
> Chap Chap



Hey Chap Chap

Hogan has a motorised mash tun and has a thread on it Here

Franko


----------



## MattC

Gee 6 pages since monday?? Are you sure a dedicated thread will be enough to contain all this info?? Possibly a dedicated forum, divided into threads based on specific HERMS issues  

On a serious note, I have been doing single infusion mashes for 12 months and am getting a bit bored with the process. I am planning on building a rig soon incorporating a HERMS. This thread is EXCELLENT and the information provided in it is invaluable to someone looking at starting out such as myself, thanks guys.

Quick newbie question. The HERMS takes away the need to perform decoction mashes, step mashes (solely within the mash tun) or double infusion mashes. The water you add to the mash tun remains constant, the temp is changed by reciculating the mash water through the HE?? is that correct or am I way off??

Cheers

P.S. Happy anniversary chappo (12 months since he joined the forum and only 4692 posts) :blink:


----------



## reVoxAHB

MattC said:


> Quick newbie question. The HERMS takes away the need to perform decoction mashes, step mashes (solely within the mash tun) or double infusion mashes. The water you add to the mash tun remains constant, the temp is changed by reciculating the mash water through the HE?? is that correct or am I way off??



Nope. Pretty much spot on.

reVox


----------



## RdeVjun

MattC said:


> On a serious note, I have been doing single infusion mashes for 12 months and am getting a bit bored with the process.


That I can relate to Matt. I've challenged myself to do lots of 100% base malt batches to get more familiar with base malt characteristics, try other techniques (eg. decoction, caramelising wort, mash temp effects) and also see just how far 100% base grist can be pushed. If your HERMS doesn't get up and away soon enough, perhaps give this sort of thing a whirl to keep the mojo happening?


MattC said:


> Quick newbie question. The HERMS takes away the need to perform decoction mashes, step mashes (solely within the mash tun) or double infusion mashes. The water you add to the mash tun remains constant, the temp is changed by reciculating the mash water through the HE?? is that correct or am I way off??


I don't know so much about the latter as I'm just a lazy BIABer, but I can't see how HERMS could completely replace decoction, certainly as far as flavour profile goes. Stepped temperature profile achieved with decoctions certainly can be replaced by HERMS, but AFAIK, not the flavour effects.
BTW, I've tried to replicate the decoction flavour with spec malts (melanoidin, aromatic, various crystals and Cara*s etc.) and so far they just haven't quite cut the mustard, nowadays I note the flavours are different, not better or worse just different. Oh, and a decoction smells pretty darned divine too!


----------



## MattC

Im keen to discuss this some more, but rather than continue this discussion on this thread, I have posted a new one here...

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...mp;#entry582325

Cheers


----------



## antains

Chappo said:


> Love your system Yardy! Been good seeing you inch that together over Christmas.
> 
> I have to agree with Gregs you are 9/10th there you have the big bit! The bloody pump.
> 
> Ok shopping list and rough pricing.
> 
> Pot 11lt BigW $15
> Cheapo Jug for element $12
> Junction box including some electrical odds and ends $20
> TempMate or PID say $75
> Bit more plumbing but I bet my cotton socks you already have the bits after your build just laying around.
> A waterproof housing control box about $20 for jaycar
> Old/new extension lead that is still sound. (Awww honey I cut the extension cord by accident. I'll have to get a new one but not to worry I can use it again in the brewery so it's not a complete waste)
> So say less than $150
> 
> Have I left anything out guys?
> 
> Ball valve and some hoses.
> 
> Chap Chap




 My brain is a mush-puddle. 

This has been a great thread. I am a long way off from doing this, because I'm going to slowly accumulate the components.

So far, I'm three 50L kegs in and two MM thermometres. Chappo's shopping list is going to be a great indicator of what else I need.

But is there more? (1. I know that's like asking how long is a piece of string, especially considering all of the different set-ups here. 2. I _have _searched and I keep failing to find a clear list - which I need because I'm fairly time-poor and easily distracted).

Ant.


----------



## AndrewQLD

Maybe I'm blind but I can't see copper coil on that list 6-10mt would be good.

Andrew


----------



## chappo1970

AndrewQLD said:


> Maybe I'm blind but I can't see copper coil on that list 6-10mt would be good.
> 
> Andrew



Nope eyesight is good. Quote taken out of context. IIRC Yardy already had the copper.

Chap Chap


----------



## AndrewQLD

Chappo said:


> Nope eyesight is good. Quote taken out of context. IIRC Yardy already had the copper.
> 
> Chap Chap



Ah sorry about that Chap Chap, I thought it was a list for general use,

Ok then antains, you will also need 6-10 mt copper coil.  

Andrew


----------



## antains

AndrewQLD said:


> Maybe I'm blind but I can't see copper coil on that list 6-10mt would be good.
> 
> Andrew


For all my reading of this thread and how many times I mentally noted the coil I now hang my head in shame.

Thanks for nudging that


----------



## quincy

Watching this thread with interest.

Got me thinking about piecing together a temporary HE to guage the difference it makes before going full bore ahead with all the right gear.

I understand the additional uses of a march pump outside of the HE but for a quick mock up HE could I use an old washing machine pump??

Cheers
Q


----------



## chappo1970

quincy said:


> Watching this thread with interest.
> 
> Got me thinking about piecing together a temporary HE to guage the difference it makes before going full bore ahead with all the right gear.
> 
> I understand the additional uses of a march pump outside of the HE but for a quick mock up HE could I use an old washing machine pump??
> 
> Cheers
> Q



Quincy MD

PM either Sav or TidalPete and see if you can get along to one of their brew days both are HERMies and good brewers too boot.

Cheers

Chap Chap


----------



## razz

I don't see why not q, I used one for a year or two before I discovered March pumps. Don't remember putting 95-100 degree fluids through it, but I did use it for spargeing.


----------



## quincy

Chappo said:


> Quincy MD
> 
> PM either Sav or TidalPete and see if you can get along to one of their brew days both are HERMies and good brewers too boot.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Chap Chap



Good idea. Seeing is believing  




razz said:


> I don't see why not q, I used one for a year or two before I discovered March pumps. Don't remember putting 95-100 degree fluids through it, but I did use it for spargeing.



Thanks razz. I have an old washing machine that has a built in thermostat that alows a maximum water temp setting of 90 deg. I will use the pump with the HE to start with and maybe adapt it in other parts of the brewery over time.

Cheers
Q


----------



## chappo1970

Also seeing their rigs will give you ideas on how to set yours up without the stuff around factor.


----------



## sav

Savys HERMS pic .


----------



## yardy

sav said:


> Savys HERMS pic .




nice B) 

got any performance specs for the chiller sav ?

thinking of getting one

cheers

Dave


----------



## A3k

Hi guys,
i've been improving my setup lately including a march pump and a 12m immersion chiller which i am also going to be using as a HERMs coil. I've made the coil so that it fits in my 15Lt pot.
I'm currently using a braided hose falsie, but will be upgrading to something better soon to reduce dead space.

It's all close to go and i was planning on using it in my next brew which i already have the ingredients... HOWEVER it's Tony's aussie wheat (~60% wheat). Should i wait to try the HERMs on a all Barley beer, hurry up and sort out a new falsie, or just suck it and see. I figure i'll probably have enough new problems to attend to, don't know if i need a stuck sparge due to the march pump adding to the stress of the day.

Cheers,
Al


----------



## newguy

A3k,

Can you get your hands on rice hulls? If you can, then I'd say go for it - virtually no risk. I don't have any issues with wheat producing a stuck runoff on my HERMS but I have a false bottom not a braided hose. However, I don't even use rice hulls.


----------



## A3k

newguy said:


> A3k,
> 
> Can you get your hands on rice hulls? If you can, then I'd say go for it - virtually no risk. I don't have any issues with wheat producing a stuck runoff on my HERMS but I have a false bottom not a braided hose. However, I don't even use rice hulls.




Hi Newguy,
i've got some rice hulls, but not sure if it'll be enough. The braid works okay with rice hulls, but I've only done one wheat without. It was a nightmare lautering.

I reckon i'll try and get some more rice hulls and the new falsie before the next batch.

the only thing stopping me getting a new falsie is this. I have a crappy old esky as a mash tun. I'm toying up getting a new tun, but don't want to be limitted by the shape of the false bottom... Maybe i just need to bite the bullet and get a beerbelly falsie, or make something myself.

Cheers,
Al


----------



## TidalPete

My HERMES with the HE on the bottom behind the valve board.
Last recipe efficiency in the tun was 96.82% (According to BeerSmith) *without any rice gulls needed* for a Scottish Export 80\- 
Not bad for a senile old bastard Andrew(Qld  ). <_< 



TP


----------



## AndrewQLD

TidalPete said:


> My HERMES with the HE on the bottom behind the valve board.
> Last recipe efficiency in the tun was 96.82% (According to BeerSmith) *without any rice gulls needed* for a Scottish Export 80\-
> Not bad for a senile old bastard Andrew(Qld  ). <_<
> View attachment 34834
> 
> 
> TP



Your a legend TP, and I'm looking forward to a drink and a chat mate.

Andrew


----------



## Batz

Sully said:


> Chap Chap, If you can vaguely recall we were talking about motorised stirrers a while ago. I was specifically looking at putting one in the hlt.




I have a stirrer in my Hlt, it's a windscreen wiper motor. These would easly run a mash stirrer as well.

Batz


----------



## bradsbrew

Batz said:


> I have a stirrer in my Hlt, it's a windscreen wiper motor. These would easly run a mash stirrer as well.
> 
> Batz




Batz, I put my new 2200w element into my HLT yesterday and used it for the first time last night and what I diid find is that the dial thermometer wasnt accurate until I stirred the water and thought maybe I should fix a stiirrer to the HLT. You have just answered my question. Off to the wreckers I guess.

Cheers Brad


----------



## TidalPete

Batz said:


> I have a stirrer in my Hlt, it's a windscreen wiper motor. These would easly run a mash stirrer as well.
> 
> Batz



I could be forgiven for thinking that your stirrer was long gone Batz as I am not allowed near the brew shed anymore.   
Is that coil still in your HLT or do you have a dedicated HE these days?
Your whole setup seems to be very top secret mate? :unsure: 



TP


----------



## Batz

TidalPete said:


> I could be forgiven for thinking that your stirrer was long gone Batz as I am not allowed near the brew shed anymore.
> Is that coil still in your HLT or do you have a dedicated HE these days?
> Your whole setup seems to be very top secret mate? :unsure:
> View attachment 34838
> 
> 
> TP




Hell that's going back old timer, stirrer is still the same and going strong. The coil is long gone, that was a complete failure.




> Batz, I put my new 2200w element into my HLT yesterday and used it for the first time last night and what I diid find is that the dial thermometer wasnt accurate until I stirred the water and thought maybe I should fix a stiirrer to the HLT. You have just answered my question. Off to the wreckers I guess.
> 
> Cheers Brad



Got in one Brad



Cheers
Batz


----------



## Franko

I have to build the HERMS coil now for my brewery what length of copper pipe do you guys recommend for my 20 litre urn on the lower level of my brewery.
I was thinking of around 7 metres or so
Franko


----------



## hockadays

bradsbrew said:


> Batz, I put my new 2200w element into my HLT yesterday and used it for the first time last night and what I diid find is that the dial thermometer wasnt accurate until I stirred the water and thought maybe I should fix a stiirrer to the HLT. You have just answered my question. Off to the wreckers I guess.
> 
> Cheers Brad



I get around this problem by putting the outlet from the heat exchanger into the HLT and pumping the strike water back onto itself while heating up the rest of the system as well. I do this when theres approx 10degc left to heat in the HLT take about 10mins and everything is up to temp including the Herms as well as all the fittings etc. Makes my first ramp up quicker as well. 

I also made my herms more effecient by reducing the amount of water in it and putting a piece of foam on top so there is no airspace as well. I seem to get about 0.7degc/min which is not great but is enough.


----------



## TidalPete

Franko said:


> I have to build the HERMS coil now for my brewery what length of copper pipe do you guys recommend for my 20 litre urn on the lower level of my brewery.
> I was thinking of around 7 metres or so
> Franko



Franko,

I would seriously recommend that you use the smallest pot\cylinder possible for your HE. I use a 7 litre Woolies & have jammed 5.7 metres of copper coil into it although others have done better with the same sized pot by allowing the inlet\exit to enter the pot through the lid. :super: 
If you still plan on using that 20 litre urn I would say to start at 18 metres & cram all you can into it.
A ss cover over your urn element can only be of help.

TP


----------



## Franko

TidalPete said:


> Franko,
> 
> I would seriously recommend that you use the smallest pot\cylinder possible for your HE. I use a 7 litre Woolies & have jammed 5.7 metres of copper coil into it although others have done better with the same sized pot by allowing the inlet\exit to enter the pot through the lid. :super:
> If you still plan on using that 20 litre urn I would say to start at 18 metres & cram all you can into it.
> A ss cover over your urn element can only be of help.
> 
> TP



Thanks for that Pete,
I'll try to cram it full of copper coil.
It is electronically controlled and I am able to dial what temp I want going thru there it will have a thermocouple attached on the outlet

Franko


----------



## Batz

TidalPete said:


> Franko,
> 
> I would seriously recommend that you use the smallest pot\cylinder possible for your HE. I use a 7 litre Woolies & have jammed 5.7 metres of copper coil into it although others have done better with the same sized pot by allowing the inlet\exit to enter the pot through the lid. :super:
> If you still plan on using that 20 litre urn I would say to start at 18 metres & cram all you can into it.
> A ss cover over your urn element can only be of help.
> 
> TP




Poppy cock !!

I use a 20lt urn mate, works a treat and have around 15m in that baby.
Changing temperature takes no time at all, but you don't loose temperature either when you begin pumping. Smaller vessels will quickly have a temperature loss until they pick up the temperature they loose from pumping a cool liquid through them.

Want some picks?

Otherwise I'll sell you a cheap 10lt urn for $20.00,that'll will do the job.

Batz


----------



## bonj

Wow Pete, that's extraordinary efficiency. I have been building a HERMS for over a year now... these things take time, eh Franko? Anyway, I'm now thinking that the pot I was given for it is probably too big... which is fortunate in a way, since it's the perfect size for my new cheese making kit... Anyway, I have been promised a replacement from a *fantastic* _sneaky little s%&t_ brewer and I think with it, and my stainless probe ends coming from stirplates.com, I might finally get this thing going.

I'm really enjoying this thread... One of the most educational, informative threads in a long time.


----------



## Gout

What is the biggest problem in having a smaller coil - I only ask as i think i have only 8m in a 10Lt HE. I use a PID and it seems to ramp to temp (when i change it) very fast and it sits on temp very tightly. I guess it means it should ramp slower?, but i havnt had a problem so far.

I would like more copper in there but i just have not got around to it, and given its working so well - not sure i will

My current brew is the first without my HERMS for yrs (i was upgrading the control box) and its not as nice as my normal beer - i used a glass thermo and think its mashed higher as it seems sweet and too much body - that said it is younge but i am glad to have the HERMS back online


----------



## Batz

Gout said:


> What is the biggest problem in having a smaller coil - I only ask as i think i have only 8m in a 10Lt HE. I use a PID and it seems to ramp to temp (when i change it) very fast and it sits on temp very tightly. I guess it means it should ramp slower?, but i havnt had a problem so far.
> 
> I would like more copper in there but i just have not got around to it, and given its working so well - not sure i will
> 
> My current brew is the first without my HERMS for yrs (i was upgrading the control box) and its not as nice as my normal beer - i used a glass thermo and think its mashed higher as it seems sweet and too much body - that said it is younge but i am glad to have the HERMS back online




So I'll say you have no problem Gout, if you like it, love it man B)


----------



## Batz

OK 
I find ramping up is not a problem, and who cares if it takes two minutes longer? I find smaller vessels loose heat through conductivity quickly, then you have to make up this temperature before increasing it. You don't want that, you want temperatures on the rise not the fall.

I usually do a double (that's two different) brews when I do my brew day. The 20lts of herms water when reticulating the first sparge then goes in the HLT. That with the cold water then makes up my volume in the 50lt HLT and is about right for the mash-in of the second brew .
The urn is refilled and brought back to temperature to start again during the second mash.
If I told you what temperature I now mash in at you'll have a fit.

You wouldn't Pete as I know you do similar  

Batz


----------



## Batz

I hope it's not off topic, if you want a 8 lt ( may be more of less) urn for a herms





Make an offer , it works well as does the thermostat.



Batz


----------



## AndrewQLD

Just to confirm and update a previous post I made regarding my HERMS capabilities.

Gregs came over today to do a quick Mild ale and look at my recirculation rates and times ect.
Here's what we found.
Single infusion mash @ 66c with 14 lt water and 2.6 kilo of grain, recirculated for 60 minutes via the herms, temp at the herms outlet was 66 throughout as was the grain bed, recirculation rate was measured @ 2.5lt per minute, at that rate the whole wort was being recirculated every <5 minutes.

At the sixty minute point the controller was set to 78 for the mash out and circulation continued at the same rate of 2.5 lt/m, temp started to rise slowly and sped up towards the end of the rise, the grain bed lagged by 2-3 throughout the rise until the wort exiting the herms reached 78 and within 2 minutes the grain bed was at the same temp as the wort exiting the herms, mash out step took 20 minutes.

I crush reasonably course and I used a 2 lt jug of rice hulls to open the grain bed and allow good even flow through the bed, at several stages throughout the mash we tested the compaction of the bed and found it to be quite loose and free, it wasn't what I would call a floating mash but it was not dense at all.

We had one major problem that I will iron out easily, due to this being a lighter ale 1.033 fg my efficiency suffered a little, instead on my usual 80% I had to put up with 95% and as such we diluted in the kettle and ended up with a little too much wort .

I have around 6 mt copper coil in a 12l insulated pot and a 2200w jug element. I'm fairly confident that I could recirc up to 3l/m if required but I don't see the need to do so.

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## Thirsty Boy

I concur with using the smallest vessel you can for your HERMS vessel - I certainly had many issues with lack of speed in temp change and with overshoot when I used a larger HERMS vessel, smaller equaled better, and even smaller was better yet.

Physics wise it _has_ to be faster to change temps with a smaller vessel. You have 20L in your heat ex and 30 in your mash tun, then to go up 5.. you have to raise the temp of 50L with a given heat source. You only have an 8L heat ex and you are only heating up 38L. Conductivity losses are solved by a little bit of insulation around the vessel.

Thats the reasoning I used to explain why I got significantly better results with smaller and smaller HERMS vessels. I think I'm not the only one.

That doesn't mean its a rule - obviously Batz is having no issues with a larger vessel, and if you are using your HERMS primarily for temperature stability rather than ramping.. then its a non-issue. But quite a few people seem to find that smaller HERMS vessels equal better performance. I'm one of them.


----------



## gregs

AndrewQLD said:


> Just to confirm and update a previous post I made regarding my HERMS capabilities.
> 
> Gregs came over today to do a quick Mild ale and look at my recirculation rates and times ect.
> Here's what we found.
> Single infusion mash @ 66c with 14 lt water and 2.6 kilo of grain, recirculated for 60 minutes via the herms, temp at the herms outlet was 66 throughout as was the grain bed, recirculation rate was measured @ 2.5lt per minute, at that rate the whole wort was being recirculated every <5 minutes.
> 
> At the sixty minute point the controller was set to 78 for the mash out and circulation continued at the same rate of 2.5 lt/m, temp started to rise slowly and sped up towards the end of the rise, the grain bed lagged by 2-3 throughout the rise until the wort exiting the herms reached 78 and within 2 minutes the grain bed was at the same temp as the wort exiting the herms, mash out step took 20 minutes.
> 
> I crush reasonably course and I used a 2 lt jug of rice hulls to open the grain bed and allow good even flow through the bed, at several stages throughout the mash we tested the compaction of the bed and found it to be quite loose and free, it wasn't what I would call a floating mash but it was not dense at all.
> 
> We had one major problem that I will iron out easily, due to this being a lighter ale 1.033 fg my efficiency suffered a little, instead on my usual 80% I had to put up with 95% and as such we diluted in the kettle and ended up with a little too much wort .
> 
> I have around 6 mt copper coil in a 12l insulated pot and a 2200w jug element. I'm fairly confident that I could recirc up to 3l/m if required but I don't see the need to do so.
> 
> Cheers
> Andrew



Thanks for the morning Andrew it was great to see in person what you were describing earlier in this post and being able to experience (by feel) the consistency of the grain bed and see the flow rate you create for your mash profiles. 

For all reading this post I guess there are many different ways to brew and many different systems to brew on - and I guess they all work in their own right, and if people are happy with it then thats great. BUT!

After building my system and not being entirely happy with its performance because my expectations where such that the HERMS should take care of all the temps in reasonable time and show some consistency between Herms and HLT. Then after contemplating some of the previous posts in this thread I started to think; why should I put up with a heat exchanger system that wont show consistently close temps between HERMS and mash tun, also if the temperature ramp times are so slow that mashout takes forever, or is almost unachievable because of flow, then personally I may as well have built a strait 3V system. 

After seeing how Andrew manipulates and utilises all the variables within his HERMS system I can now understand what he is on about re- consistent temp readings between Herms and HLT. Also flow within the system is a key factor in extracting the most from it.

It was an excellent morning. I felt like grasshopper in that old TV show Kung-fu.

Cheers; Gregs.


----------



## gregs

Thirsty Boy said:


> I concur with using the smallest vessel you can for your HERMS vessel - I certainly had many issues with lack of speed in temp change and with overshoot when I used a larger HERMS vessel, smaller equaled better, and even smaller was better yet.
> 
> Physics wise it _has_ to be faster to change temps with a smaller vessel. You have 20L in your heat ex and 30 in your mash tun, then to go up 5.. you have to raise the temp of 50L with a given heat source. You only have an 8L heat ex and you are only heating up 38L. Conductivity losses are solved by a little bit of insulation around the vessel.
> 
> Thats the reasoning I used to explain why I got significantly better results with smaller and smaller HERMS vessels. I think I'm not the only one.
> 
> That doesn't mean its a rule - obviously Batz is having no issues with a larger vessel, and if you are using your HERMS primarily for temperature stability rather than ramping.. then its a non-issue. But quite a few people seem to find that smaller HERMS vessels equal better performance. I'm one of them.




How can you only quote one side of your argument! that is herms vessel size? The other side of the equation is how fast you can heat the herms vessel and that would have a great impact on its ability to work.


----------



## bonj

gregs said:


> How can you only quote one side of your argument! that is herms vessel size? The other side of the equation is how fast you can heat the herms vessel and that would have a great impact on its ability to work.


I can see what you mean here, gregs, although my interpretation was that the argument was given based on the same power element. The smaller vessel with the given element, would enable faster temperature changes (in either direction) than the larger with the same element.


----------



## technocat

gregs said:


> How can you only quote one side of your argument! that is herms vessel size? The other side of the equation is how fast you can heat the herms vessel and that would have a great impact on its ability to work.



The way I see it the greater the element output in watts that the wiring feeding it will support the better. I have an 1800W element heating a 12L HERMS and find the ramp time much to slow. This I need to replace with 2400W or better. A PITA really as it means an extra power circuit in the workshop will have to be put in place. This is what happens when you take shortcuts and don't do your homework.


----------



## gregs

When evaluating the size of your future herms vessel consider the flow rate, heating ability and eventual heat mass re overall size. Lets look at AndrewQlds system. He quoted a flow of 2.5 litres per minute; this was through a inch coil I think approximately 8 metres in length. During his mash circle re post #149 the total volume of liquid would pass through the herms coil 10 times over in 1 hour . The water within the herms pot itself would have to be (as I have measured on many occasion on my system) hotter than the wort flowing thru the coil (how much hotter depends on your flow) but it will never be cooler. So in effect the wort is actually trying to cool the herms. So size or mass actually maters as does your heating ability. 

Remember if youre using water in your herms pot you can only ever reach 99.8 degrees c within the pot as this is boiling point.


----------



## Screwtop

AndrewQLD said:


> Single infusion mash @ 66c with 14 lt water and 2.6 kilo of grain




Interested in your findings Andrew as I'm about to upgrade my HE. Bought the gear back in June but still haven't put it together. Do you always mash at 5+L/Kg. I generally use 2.75L/Kg and occasionally 3L/Kg, this may be contributing to the diff in my system.

Cheers,

Screwy


----------



## bradsbrew

I have a 7m SS miracle box coil that I intend to fit into a 5L Urn. Does the smaller ID of the coil have a negative effect on the temp raising during ramp up??

Cheers Brad


----------



## TidalPete

bradsbrew said:


> I have a 7m SS miracle box coil that I intend to fit into a 5L Urn. Does the smaller ID of the coil have a negative effect on the temp raising during ramp up??
> 
> Cheers Brad



Brad,

I would say that it would  but stand to be corrected.
It's all about recirculating a given volume of wort from\to the mash tun in the shortest time possible so the larger the ID the better. That coil must really be tightly formed (9mmOD?) to fit into 5 litres? Wouldn't have a pic would you? You could possibly benefit from a ss cover over your element whether or not you decide to go with this coil?

Screwy --- FYI my liquor to grain ratio is always 3.25:1 which suits MY system but may not be best for others.

TP


----------



## bradsbrew

TidalPete said:


> Brad,
> 
> I would say that it would  but stand to be corrected.
> It's all about recirculating a given volume of wort from\to the mash tun in the shortest time possible so the larger the ID the better. That coil must really be tightly formed (9mmOD?) to fit into 5 litres? Wouldn't have a pic would you? You could possibly benefit from a ss cover over your element whether or not you decide to go with this coil?
> 
> Screwy --- FYI my liquor to grain ratio is always 3.25:1 which suits MY system but may not be best for others.
> 
> TP



Yeah Pete i see where you are coming from but I was thinking perhaps smaller volume through coil would get heated quicker. the urn is a tall and thin and yes I think its a 7mm ID but will measure and take a pic. So what is the average ID of coils.

Cheers Brad


----------



## gregs

Brad the coil in my system is 11.5 mm ID thin walled stainless 13mm OD, the coil length is 11 metres, pot size 20 litres, heating is a commercial coffee machine element at 2400w. After that for my system its all about flow.


----------



## TidalPete

bradsbrew said:


> Yeah Pete i see where you are coming from but I was thinking perhaps smaller volume through coil would get heated quicker. the urn is a tall and thin and yes I think its a 7mm ID but will measure and take a pic. So what is the average ID of coils.
> 
> Cheers Brad



Brad,g
The copper tubing most of us use is a smidgen under 10mm ID. I'm sure both you & Gregs have taken into account that copper has a higher thermal conductivity than ss?
Not stirring the pot (Pun intended  ), just pointing this out.

TP


----------



## Screwtop

TidalPete said:


> Screwy --- FYI my liquor to grain ratio is always 3.25:1 which suits MY system but may not be best for others.



Be interesting to see what liquor to grist ratios others are using Pete, and how it relates to slow catch up rate of the grainbed temp.

Cheers,

Screwy


----------



## sav

Screwtop said:


> Be interesting to see what liquor to grist ratios others are using Pete, and how it relates to slow catch up rate of the grainbed temp.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Screwy
> 
> I use 2.80lt pkg I dont have any issues with temp,But I might try 3 too see If I can get a few more points.
> 
> sav


----------



## technocat

gregs said:


> Brad the coil in my system is 11.5 mm ID thin walled stainless 13mm OD, the coil length is 11 metres, pot size 20 litres, heating is a commercial coffee machine element at 2400w. After that for my system it's all about flow.
> View attachment 34890



Gregs as a matter if interest where did you get your coil made and also I was interested in how you did your entry and exit points but but unfortunately they don't show up in the pic.

Cheers
BN


----------



## AndrewQLD

Screwtop said:


> Interested in your findings Andrew as I'm about to upgrade my HE. Bought the gear back in June but still haven't put it together. Do you always mash at 5+L/Kg. I generally use 2.75L/Kg and occasionally 3L/Kg, this may be contributing to the diff in my system.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Screwy



Not always Screwy, the ratios change dependent on the grain bill, however I always do 2 equal drains, mash in is slightly larger than the sparge because I take into account the grain absorption, so long as my two run offs are of equal size I'm happy. My ratios will go from 4l/kg for a 1.050 beer up to 5l/kg for a 1.033 beer.

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## Screwtop

AndrewQLD said:


> Not always Screwy, the ratios change dependent on the grain bill, however I always do 2 equal drains, mash in is slightly larger than the sparge because I take into account the grain absorption, so long as my two run offs are of equal size I'm happy. My ratios will go from 4l/kg for a 1.050 beer up to 5l/kg for a 1.033 beer.
> 
> Cheers
> Andrew




Thanks Andrew, doing a brew this week, will try a higher L:Grist ratio, maybe 4L/Kg. Be interesting to observe differences in grainbed temp increase using my kit.

Screwy


----------



## gregs

Brad my coil is form an old magic box or ice bucket cooling system; Im not sure what their called. 



The fittings in and out are bulkhead style compression fittings at45 degree, circulation is from bottom to top. I can post you some pics later tonight if that will help.


----------



## gregs

Beernut said:


> Gregs as a matter if interest where did you get your coil made and also I was interested in how you did your entry and exit points but but unfortunately they don't show up in the pic.
> 
> Cheers
> BN



I hope this pic helps, coil was part of ice bucket cooling system, the type you used to get for partys ect, the fittings are from the original system. The original nylon seals in side the compresion fittings where trashed. I eventual found the correct seals through Beazley Hydraulics. The compression fitting it self slides over the tube, then tightened to seal the coil on the inside of the pot, the other end of the fitting is a straight 1/2 inch BSPF thread with nut, washer and seal on the inside of the pot and nut and washer on the outside of the pot. Hop that makes sense.


----------



## gregs

And one of the out side


----------



## yardy

gregs said:


> And one of the out side
> 
> View attachment 34921




geez you do nice work mate B)


----------



## Polar Beer

Good thread. I've procrastinated for a while on my HERMS build and this should be the motivation I need to get it done. I have most of the components now. PIDs, pump, bench, false bottom etc. 
Just need to:

1: build the HE. Have one of those 8L wine esky cylinder things. 
2: build electronics box and install PIDS and elements.
3: upgrade my wiring back to the fuse box. I have a 3.5k element for the HLT. Have been told my 10amp line wont be able to handle it plus fermenting fridges, garage TV etc. 
4: Assemble it all

Getting some help with the electrical stuff as I've got no idea. 

Can you wise HERMSmen have a look at my diagram and critique? Looks sound enough to me. 

BTW - I do remember reading somewhere that people had issues using a SS braid as a manifold with a HERMS or RIMS. They ended up crushing apparently. 

Cheers
Polar 

View attachment HERMS.pdf


----------



## AndrewQLD

Looks great Polar, it will be a nice and neat system by the looks of things. I use SS braid in my HERMS and have never had a problem. I bought mine from a plumbing supply store as the stuff most hardware stores sell is of a smaller diameter and could be susceptible to collapsing.

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## Thirsty Boy

gregs said:


> How can you only quote one side of your argument! that is herms vessel size? The other side of the equation is how fast you can heat the herms vessel and that would have a great impact on its ability to work.



Because I was _addressing_ HERMS vessel size not element power - Bonj spotted the bit where I used the phrase "for a given element" which to be honest I simply assumed people would assume... to much assumption I guess. I can't see why you would use in a HERMS system, any element other than the biggest one you practically could. Probably mainly limited by your power supply or perhaps by cost.

So - with any given element - I agree with TP that the smallest possible pot is the best choice. It tallies with all the thought I have given to how a HERMS works and with my experience brewing on a HERMS system with varying vessel sizes. Not the only opinion round.. but my one FWIW

But - I have raised a question that I would be interested in hearing other HERMS brewer's point of view on.

Is there any reason to not run the most powerful element you are able to run? Its not like my RIMS where I need to worry about power density and scorching -- as long as its not so powerful that it blasts your heat/ex vessel way past setpoint before your controller can reign it in..... is not bigger indeed better for this sort of application??


Quote Polar Bear


> BTW - I do remember reading somewhere that people had issues using a SS braid as a manifold with a HERMS or RIMS. They ended up crushing apparently.



I used braid for a long time in my HERMS and RIMS - it worked and sometimes it worked pretty well. But in the end I have changed to a false bottom. I do belive that the braid probably crushed or at least pinched at points. I think that the vast majority of action was taking place in the first few inches closest to the outlet. And I could never get the really good flowrate I wanted.. and with lower flowrate, my system lost a lot of stability in its control. On the more frustrating occasions, no matter how low and slow I went, it would just stick and I couldn't re-circulate at all. I haven't really brewed enough with the false bottom to say for sure its better... but so far I seem to get higher flow rates and smoother response from my system with the FB.

I think on balance I'd say go with a proper FB ... although if you just want to get into it and braid is handy, it will indeed work.

TB


----------



## chappo1970

TB - I'm about to rebuild my HERMS system and hard plumb. I first item on the list was up the size of the element from 2200w to 3600w. Also to reduce the HE vessel size from 15.4lts to 11.5lts. What I am hoping to achieve is faster ramp times for my step mashes. I am also toying with the idea of reducing the coil size OD from 12.7 to 9.52 which should reduce my flow by 25%. Now my theory in the madness is with this is I only ever run the system at full flow when I dough in to set the grain bed and then throttle it back to about 1/2. If I have a smaller OD pipe I am effectively doing that with a little room adjustment but I compromise will be I won't have full throttle, which I can't see I really need as I don't fly sparge anyway.





Screwtop said:


> Thanks Andrew, doing a brew this week, will try a higher L:Grist ratio, maybe 4L/Kg. Be interesting to observe differences in grainbed temp increase using my kit.
> 
> Screwy



Screwy I am like you with L:Grist ratio's and would be interested in your observations.

Chap Chap


----------



## altstart

Chappo said:


> TB - I'm about to rebuild my HERMS system and hard plumb. I first item on the list was up the size of the element from 2200w to 3600w. Also to reduce the HE vessel size from 15.4lts to 11.5lts. What I am hoping to achieve is faster ramp times for my step mashes. I am also toying with the idea of reducing the coil size OD from 12.7 to 9.52 which should reduce my flow by 25%. Now my theory in the madness is with this is I only ever run the system at full flow when I dough in to set the grain bed and then throttle it back to about 1/2. If I have a smaller OD pipe I am effectively doing that with a little room adjustment but I compromise will be I won't have full throttle, which I can't see I really need as I don't fly sparge anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Screwy I am like you with L:Grist ratio's and would be interested in your observations.
> 
> Chap Chap



Hey Chappo where did yiu get your 3600 watt element from?.
Cheers Altstart


----------



## chappo1970

altstart said:


> Hey Chappo where did yiu get your 3600 watt element from?.
> Cheers Altstart



Alty,

Stokes

http://www.stokesap.com.au/Content/templat...8&zoneid=12

Great guys and very helpful.

BTW when are we having that brew day together old friend? I have a cracking ESB which I would love you to try.

Chap Chap


----------



## A3k

Hi guys,
what kind of PID controllers does everyone use?
I've got a on/off controller i made using a microcontroller which i could easily enough reprogram to have PID, but i wouldn't mind something a bit more robust.

Cheers,
Al


----------



## Polar Beer

A3k said:


> Hi guys,
> what kind of PID controllers does everyone use?
> I've got a on/off controller i made using a microcontroller which i could easily enough reprogram to have PID, but i wouldn't mind something a bit more robust.
> 
> Cheers,
> Al




I've got the auberins ones. A ramp/soak one for the HE outlet and a just a controller type one for the HLT. I'm not running yet so can't personally vouch for them, however they seem popular on here. Bulp runs a HERMS and recommended them.


----------



## A3k

Polar Beer said:


> I've got the auberins ones.



Awesome thanks, will look into those


----------



## yardy

Polar Beer said:


> Can you wise HERMSmen have a look at my diagram and critique? Looks sound enough to me.
> 
> BTW - I do remember reading somewhere that people had issues using a SS braid as a manifold with a HERMS or RIMS. They ended up crushing apparently.
> 
> Cheers
> Polar




I wouldn't consider myself a wise hermsman but I'd move the gas bottle to under the controller and run the gas line along the base of the frame, re: ss braid, longterm i would build a FB, if your system involves a keg shaped vessel then the cut-out can be used.






cheers

Dave


----------



## Polar Beer

yardy said:


> I wouldn't consider myself a wise hermsman but I'd move the gas bottle to under the controller and run the gas line along the base of the frame, re: ss braid, longterm i would build a FB, if your system involves a keg shaped vessel then the cut-out can be used.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 34943
> 
> 
> cheers
> 
> Dave



Thanks Dave, good point. I think I probably would have done that in the real build. I wouldn't want the bottle that close to all that heat. I have an esky FB ready to go.

I'd like to see more recirculation return pics if anyone has them. I read one good (and cheap) idea in another thread, which was to punch a heap of holes through one of those foil trays and sit that on the grain bed.


----------



## yardy

Polar Beer said:


> Thanks Dave, good point. I think I probably would have done that in the real build. I wouldn't want the bottle that close to all that heat. I have an esky FB ready to go.
> 
> I'd like to see more recirculation return pics if anyone has them. I read one good (and cheap) idea in another thread, which was to punch a heap of holes through one of those foil trays and sit that on the grain bed.



Tidal Pete has a good one HERE and a bit of info as to how i nutted out my recirc system.

cheers


----------



## Polar Beer

yardy said:


> Tidal Pete has a good one HERE



Perfect


----------



## chappo1970

Slooow day so been shopping for elements. Bascially I am looking at an immersion 2" BSP triple element. Anyway can the more elctronically minded guru's give me an idea of what 116kW/m2 means? Also how large a circuit is required to drive this element? See below

I want to look at either the 2400W or the 3600W to drive the HE as previously stated. Also the length of these 2 elements are perfect for the HE vessel.

Any help appreciated.

*Cat.No. Watts Dim'A' Applications​(116 kW/m)​​*​​1800W 144mm (long)​
2400W 195mm (long)​3600W 246mm (long)​


----------



## bonj

Chappo said:


> Slooow day so been shopping for elements. Bascially I am looking at an immersion 2" BSP triple element. Anyway can the more elctronically minded guru's give me an idea of what 116kW/m2 means? Also how large a circuit is required to drive this element? See below
> 
> I want to look at either the 2400W or the 3600W to drive the HE as previously stated. Also the length of these 2 elements are perfect for the HE vessel.
> 
> Any help appreciated.
> 
> *Cat.No. Watts Dim'A' Applications​(116 kW/m)​​*​​1800W 144mm (long)​
> 2400W 195mm (long)​3600W 246mm (long)​


116 kW/m is the power density of the heating coil used. Ideally, for a kettle, as far as I'm aware, you want the lowest density you can find, so the element is as long as possible. That allows you to distribute your heating out across a larger area and apparently helps decrease the likes of wort scorching . In a HE, I don't think you have that problem.


----------



## chappo1970

Bonj said:


> 116 kW/m is the power density of the heating coil used. Ideally, for a kettle, as far as I'm aware, you want the lowest density you can find, so the element is as long as possible. That allows you to distribute your heating out across a larger area and apparently helps decrease the likes of wort scorching . In a HE, I don't think you have that problem.



Thanks Bonj for clearing that up for me.

Chap Chap


----------



## browndog

Here is the heat exchanger I've built for the all electric rig I am slowly building, it is made from a 5kg fire extingusher, 6m of 1/2" copper tube and a 2400W element, it holds 5L water.





cheers

Browndog


----------



## chappo1970

Looking good browndog.

A few questions?

Is the element a BSP fitting?

Is the element singlr phase?

Where did you get the element?

How did you coil the copper so tight?

With the extinguisher did cut the bottom or the top off (hard to see in pix)?

I prolly wouldn't have ask all these questions if I had made to oneof your brews BD :lol:


----------



## browndog

Chappo said:


> Looking good browndog.
> 
> A few questions?
> 
> Is the element a BSP fitting?
> 
> Yes indeed.
> 
> Is the element singlr phase?
> 
> Yup
> 
> Where did you get the element?
> 
> Stokes
> 
> How did you coil the copper so tight?
> 
> Filled it with sand and took all my metalworking skills
> 
> With the extinguisher did cut the bottom or the top off (hard to see in pix)?
> 
> 
> Cut the top off mate
> 
> 
> I prolly wouldn't have ask all these questions if I had made to oneof your brews BD :lol:




Here is a few more pics




















cheers

Browndog


----------



## RussTaylor

I notice everyone's heat exchangers are coils in a kettle of some type. I'm using a Plate Heat Exchanger similar to Mashmasters - http://www.mashmaster.com/p/365438/chillout-mkiii.html

I've put about 4 batches through it so far and its holding and ramping temperatures quite well. Any comments?


----------



## chappo1970

Nice BD! Kudos!

Few pictures and a thousand words. Thanks BD that pretty much answers me mate.

Chap Chap


----------



## chappo1970

RussTaylor said:


> I notice everyone's heat exchangers are coils in a kettle of some type. I'm using a Plate Heat Exchanger similar to Mashmasters - http://www.mashmaster.com/p/365438/chillout-mkiii.html
> 
> I've put about 4 batches through it so far and its holding and ramping temperatures quite well. Any comments?




RT I have thought about this quite often but talked myself out of it worried that bits of husk, whole grains and muck might get caught up in there a sour a whole bunch of beer. Any pix of your set up?

Chap Chap


----------



## browndog

RussTaylor said:


> I notice everyone's heat exchangers are coils in a kettle of some type. I'm using a Plate Heat Exchanger similar to Mashmasters - http://www.mashmaster.com/p/365438/chillout-mkiii.html
> 
> I've put about 4 batches through it so far and its holding and ramping temperatures quite well. Any comments?



Wouldn't you need two pumps for that?

-BD


----------



## RussTaylor

Chappo said:


> RT I have thought about this quite often but talked myself out of it worried that bits of husk, whole grains and muck might get caught up in there a sour a whole bunch of beer. Any pix of your set up?
> 
> Chap Chap



Husk is a problem, but I just have to take a bit of extra time to clean it. Here's a photo I took so I could remember where all the damn hoses go. Bought the setup second hand last year and is designed to be portable. I think I'm going to make it less portable and hard plumb most of the hoses. Mashtun is on the top, HLT bottom and kettle on the right. March pump on the left and washing machine pump on the right.


----------



## chappo1970

RussTaylor said:


> Husk is a problem, but I just have to take a bit of extra time to clean it. Here's a photo I took so I could remember where all the damn hoses go. Bought the setup second hand last year and is designed to be portable. I think I'm going to make it less portable and hard plumb most of the hoses. Mashtun is on the top, HLT bottom and kettle on the right. March pump on the left and washing machine pump on the right.
> 
> View attachment 34970




Well the system looks the goods no doubt about it. I actually like it but still have reservations with crap getting into the plate chiller. I wonder if you could have a fine mesh screen pre entry to the plate chiller to eliminate the bigger chunks?

BTW what type of pumps are those RT?

Chap Chap


----------



## RussTaylor

Chappo said:


> BTW what type of pumps are those RT?
> 
> Chap Chap



Twas in my last post Chappo. March pump on the left and a washing machine pump on the right (or do you want more information?). I have another march pump ready for whirlpooling the kettle but not using it yet. The washing machine pump obviously just touches the water line and all wort goes through the march pump.


----------



## chappo1970

RussTaylor said:


> Twas in my last post Chappo. March pump on the left and a washing machine pump on the right (or do you want more information?). I have another march pump ready for whirlpooling the kettle but not using it yet. The washing machine pump obviously just touches the water line and all wort goes through the march pump.




B) So it was! I only read pictures

Nice set up RT


----------



## RussTaylor

Chappo said:


> Nice set up RT



Cheers, I only wish I could say I built it myself but I'm hopeless with mechanical stuff.


----------



## RussTaylor

Chappo said:


> Well the system looks the goods no doubt about it. I actually like it but still have reservations with crap getting into the plate chiller. I wonder if you could have a fine mesh screen pre entry to the plate chiller to eliminate the bigger chunks?
> 
> Chap Chap



People have the same problem with cleaning hop and break material out of their plate chillers after chilling their wort. I certainly prefer my heat exchanger being on the pre boil side than being post boil  I figure the boil will sort out nasties that get through. PBW and sanitiser gets rid of most of the crap.


----------



## Screwtop

RussTaylor said:


> People have the same problem with cleaning hop and break material out of their plate chillers after chilling their wort. I certainly prefer my heat exchanger being on the pre boil side than being post boil  I figure the boil will sort out nasties that get through. PBW and sanitiser gets rid of most of the crap.




Interesting, so do you control the temp of the water being pumped through the HE to arrive at your wort out temp?

Screwy


----------



## RussTaylor

Screwtop said:


> Interesting, so do you control the temp of the water being pumped through the HE to arrive at your wort out temp?
> 
> Screwy



Pretty much. There's a probe in the HLT and a probe in the mash both connected to Dwyer controllers. I set the HLT to say 68C and the mash sits nicely at 66C. The mash is always 2C less than HLT. I'm not actually measuring the wort out temperature like you've suggested in other posts but I reckon it's pretty close. My probe in the mash sits just under the wort return inlet so it would be measuring the hotest part of the mash. I can raise to mash out temp in about 10-15mins.


----------



## Polar Beer

Question for my build:

One of the objectives of my HERMS will be to move into double batches. I currently pump my single batches out of the mash tun and into the kettle via the valve at the base of the kettle. Works fine.
My question is - will my march pump struggle with this going to double batches? ie: will it the extra volume in the kettle as it nears 60L, start putting too much reverse pressue on the pump flow into the kettle?

I hope that makes sense. I could always fill it from the top. 

Cheers
Polar


----------



## fcmcg

Polar Beer said:


> Question for my build:
> 
> One of the objectives of my HERMS will be to move into double batches. I currently pump my single batches out of the mash tun and into the kettle via the valve at the base of the kettle. Works fine.
> My question is - will my march pump struggle with this going to double batches? ie: will it the extra volume in the kettle as it nears 60L, start putting too much reverse pressue on the pump flow into the kettle?
> 
> I hope that makes sense. I could always fill it from the top.
> 
> Cheers
> Polar


Polar,
When i am doing a brew ( double batch) , i do exectly as you do. I have no probs at all with reverse pressure. 
The pump more than handles the situation ,even with 50 + litres going into the kettle. 
One thing to make sure though , that is your pump is lower than your lowest vessel and it is well primed .
I've had the pump for 5 brews now and have used it this way since i got it and am very , very happy with it...you won't have any probs....
Cheers
Ferg


----------



## newguy

From the March H315 specs on morebeer.com:



> This pump has a maximum flow of 7.2 gpm with a maximum head of 12 feet. For an example of typical usage: with a head of 6' it will pump 3.25 gpm and with an 8' head it will pump 2.5 gpm.



As long as you're not pumping some huge vertical direction (max height of wort in kettle - bottom of pump (if pump is lowest in system) or - bottom of mash tun (if mash tun is lowest in system)) it might be fine. Just know that as your kettle fills and the backpressure on the pump builds, the flow rate will slow, if not become 0. Try it with water first. If you have problems you'll have to fill from the top.


----------



## Polar Beer

thanks guys. Good advice!

 
I really should have raised this in another topic. It's not really a HERMS question as such. 
Thread mods - feel free to remove this one. Dont want to cascade into a march pump discussion.


----------



## chappo1970

Polar Beer said:


> thanks guys. Good advice!
> 
> 
> I really should have raised this in another topic. It's not really a HERMS question as such.
> Thread mods - feel free to remove this one. Dont want to cascade into a march pump discussion.




Disagree PB. Pretty hard to have a HERMS without a pump? Please leave it Mods it's certainly a consideration we all need to take into our systems.

Chap Chap


----------



## Polar Beer

Chappo said:


> Disagree PB. Pretty hard to have a HERMS without a pump? Please leave it Mods it's certainly a consideration we all need to take into our systems.
> 
> Chap Chap



OK then  

Next question: 
I have a dream. A dream that I can fill my Mash tun with strike water before I go to bed, when I wake up I find it recirculating at my desired temprature, ready for the grain to be tossed in. 
Is anyone doing this with their HERMS? I wouldn't know where to start. I'll be using an auberin ramp/soak PID if that helps anyone.

Polar


----------



## kfahy

Can i ask about the kind of PIDs people are using too? What kind of PIDs are people using  

Do the ramp soak ones let you set the temps for a set period of time and then ramp it up. So could you set it for 67 for the mash and then raise it to mashout and have it do that automatically? Is the the benefit over just an on/off one?

I'm pretty hopeless when it comes to electronics sorry  

What other options are there?


----------



## chappo1970

Polar Beer said:


> OK then
> 
> Next question:
> I have a dream. A dream that I can fill my Mash tun with strike water before I go to bed, when I wake up I find it recirculating at my desired temprature, ready for the grain to be tossed in.
> Is anyone doing this with their HERMS? I wouldn't know where to start. I'll be using an auberin ramp/soak PID if that helps anyone.
> 
> Polar



Do it every brew day. Like Screwy I don't heat up the HLT for stike I fill the MLT to desired volume, switch on the HE and march pump. Go have a cuppa by the time I return 15-20mins later I am at 40-50C (depending on what I am doing) I dough in. Simple. If yoou wanted all dusted and ready to go a $20 timer from Bunnings would do the the trick.

BTW I only do double batches.

Chap Chap


----------



## glaab

Polar Beer said:


> Question for my build:
> ie: will it the extra volume in the kettle as it nears 60L, start putting too much reverse pressue on the pump flow into the kettle?
> 
> Cheers
> Polar



:icon_offtopic: 

wouldn't the pressure at the tap be the same with 60L in the kettle as it would be with a length of hose
extending up to the same height as the level in the kettle? [ provided it had id equal to or greater than the valve ] I think you could have a 1000L kettle and the head height/ flow rate wouldn't change.


----------



## TidalPete

Chappo said:


> Do it every brew day. Like Screwy I don't heat up the HLT for stike I fill the MLT to desired volume, switch on the HE and march pump. Go have a cuppa by the time I return 15-20mins later I am at 40-50C (depending on what I am doing) I dough in. Simple. If yoou wanted all dusted and ready to go a $20 timer from Bunnings would do the the trick.
> 
> BTW I only do double batches.
> 
> Chap Chap



At the risk up upsetting our Chap Chap it's faster to set your timer to heat the HLT to say 42 deg c the night before.
Wake up, roll out of the cot etc, then turn on the HE & set to the next step whilst you underlet to your grain bill in the MT at the same time.
Very similar I know but still a time saving exercise (Especially in the cold months).

BTW I only do double batches when the recipe has proven itself.  
Forgive me chappo old mate. :icon_cheers: 

TP


----------



## AndrewQLD

TidalPete said:


> At the risk up upsetting our Chap Chap it's faster to set your timer to heat the HLT to say 42 deg c the night before.
> Wake up, roll out of the cot etc, then turn on the HE & set to the next step whilst you underlet to your grain bill in the MT at the same time.
> Very similar I know but still a time saving exercise (Especially in the cold months).
> 
> BTW I only do double batches when the recipe has proven itself.
> Forgive me chappo old mate. :icon_cheers:
> 
> TP



That's the way TP, exactly what I do, one of the reasons my brew day is 3.5 hours long from start to finish.

Andrew


----------



## Polar Beer

bluetoff said:


> Do the ramp soak ones let you set the temps for a set period of time and then ramp it up. So could you set it for 67 for the mash and then raise it to mashout and have it do that automatically? Is the the benefit over just an on/off one?



pretty much AFAIK
You can also set it to rest your mash at different temps. If that's what you're into.


----------



## TidalPete

AndrewQLD said:


> That's the way TP, exactly what I do, one of the reasons my brew day is 3.5 hours long from start to finish.
> 
> Andrew



Looking forward to talking to you on 26th March Andrew. Perhaps you can show me a few shortcuts? My brewday is MUCH longer probably because I am too fussy.  

TP


----------



## chappo1970

TidalPete said:


> At the risk up upsetting our Chap Chap it's faster to set your timer to heat the HLT to say 42 deg c the night before.
> Wake up, roll out of the cot etc, then turn on the HE & set to the next step whilst you underlet to your grain bill in the MT at the same time.
> Very similar I know but still a time saving exercise (Especially in the cold months).
> 
> BTW I only do double batches when the recipe has proven itself.
> Forgive me chappo old mate. :icon_cheers:
> 
> TP



No offence taken TP you know that I appreciate what you have to say. (Except your turning all tree huggin dredlock wearing hippy on me :lol: ) Your way certainly has it advantages from what I can see and certainly an advantage in winter time no doubt about it. 

To be honest I don't find it a PITA as tap temp thru summer is 26-27C, about 22-24 in winter) so it really only needs to heat up 15C to hit B Glucan rest or 23C for Protein. @ 1C per minute rise I would only be waiting 15 to 25mins anyway. Must admit I haven't timed it but it also has the advantage of pre-heating the tun and making sure stike temp is near perfect.

Gotta love this brewing game. 1,000 way to skin the same ugly cat! :lol:


----------



## WitWonder

Watching this thread with interest though one question (not necessarily HERMS specific) but why/how doesn't the grainbed collapse and you get a stuck sparge? I assume for the sacc rest most people are recirculating the whole time, drawing wort from the bottom of the tun and depositing it back at the top, routed via the pump/HE? There is obviously a false bottom for the MLT but even so what prevents stuck sparges in this scenario??


----------



## newguy

As long as the malt isn't crushed too fine and the mash tun's dimensions are such that the grain bed isn't too deep it's pretty hard to get a stuck runoff with all barley malt. Assuming of course that your manifold/false bottom/whatever is properly set up and adequate for the task. Another factor is the water/grain ratio. If it's high enough, the mash tends to float even though wort is being sucked from the bottom of the tun. If it's low or if you run the pump to try and suck the wort out of the mash tun without returning water/wort to the top, then it will stick. I've also found that a tall slender tun (a gott cooler that I used to use) would tend to want to stick. I assume that's because of the increased weight/pressure that the mash creates at the bottom of the tun compared to a wider shorter tun.

I presently have a false bottom but I've also used two different esky-based tuns (one a normal 48l esky and the other a ~60ish liter gott) with slotted copper manifolds (homemade). No issues with stuck mashes in either of them or my present setup, even with high wheat % (67%). As I said, the gott would run off more slowly than the others but it never stuck. When I first started brewing I used two 20l plastic pails, one in the other, with the top pail having a lot of holes drilled in its bottom - the "zapap" lauter tun in Papazian's books. I never had a good runoff with that damn thing. Without exception, every mash I did in it stuck.


----------



## AndrewQLD

WitWonder said:


> Watching this thread with interest though one question (not necessarily HERMS specific) but why/how doesn't the grainbed collapse and you get a stuck sparge? I assume for the sacc rest most people are recirculating the whole time, drawing wort from the bottom of the tun and depositing it back at the top, routed via the pump/HE? There is obviously a false bottom for the MLT but even so what prevents stuck sparges in this scenario??



From this post here, on my system it's all about the balance of wort flow speed, course crush, liquor/grain ratios, use of rice hulls, knowing your system very well and not disturbing the grain bed after mash in. When you get all of this right the grain bed won't collapse as the wort is filtering down through a fairly porous grain bed.

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## chappo1970

newguy said:


> As long as the malt isn't crushed too fine and the mash tun's dimensions are such that the grain bed isn't too deep it's pretty hard to get a stuck runoff with all barley malt. Assuming of course that your manifold/false bottom/whatever is properly set up and adequate for the task. Another factor is the water/grain ratio. If it's high enough, the mash tends to float even though wort is being sucked from the bottom of the tun. If it's low or if you run the pump to try and suck the wort out of the mash tun without returning water/wort to the top, then it will stick. I've also found that a tall slender tun (a gott cooler that I used to use) would tend to want to stick. I assume that's because of the increased weight/pressure that the mash creates at the bottom of the tun compared to a wider shorter tun.



Very interesting Newguy. I have been trying to formulate something around mash tun design but especially towards HERMS and suspected exactly what you have also observed so that's good news. Currrently trying to develop a design for a custom made purpose built mash tun and heat exchanger for Sherman Mk3.


----------



## altstart

My herms uses a 1500 watt element and experience has shown that it is underpowered. It is proving impossible to find a 2400 watt non screw in type element but I already have a handheld 2400 watt water heater that is no longer used in the brewery. my thoughts are to adapt this heater and use it in addition to the 1500 watt element. I am useing a 19 litre pot with a 6 metre S/S coil this should improve my ramp times considerably. I am aware of the additional power requirements in order to do this safely but before I start down this road is anyone else useing this amont of heating capacity.
Cheers Altstart


----------



## newguy

altstart said:


> My herms uses a 1500 watt element and experience has shown that it is underpowered. It is proving impossible to find a 2400 watt non screw in type element but I already have a handheld 2400 watt water heater that is no longer used in the brewery. my thoughts are to adapt this heater and use it in addition to the 1500 watt element. I am useing a 19 litre pot with a 6 metre S/S coil this should improve my ramp times considerably. I am aware of the additional power requirements in order to do this safely but before I start down this road is anyone else useing this amont of heating capacity.
> Cheers Altstart



I use a 1500W element to brew double batches (~40l finished volume) and it is powerful enough for me but my system is well insulated and uses a copper coil. Check your insulation. If you're hemorrhaging heat, the 1500W element will seem to struggle. Copper vs stainless coil. The thermal conductivity of stainless steel is very poor. The thermal conductivity of copper is approx 14x that of SS. This also influences overall system performance.


----------



## browndog

altstart said:


> My herms uses a 1500 watt element and experience has shown that it is underpowered. It is proving impossible to find a 2400 watt non screw in type element but I already have a handheld 2400 watt water heater that is no longer used in the brewery. my thoughts are to adapt this heater and use it in addition to the 1500 watt element. I am useing a 19 litre pot with a 6 metre S/S coil this should improve my ramp times considerably. I am aware of the additional power requirements in order to do this safely but before I start down this road is anyone else useing this amont of heating capacity.
> Cheers Altstart




Try here Jim.

http://www.stokes-aus.com.au/StokesAP/default.asp

Cheers

Browndog


----------



## glaab

sorry if this has been covered elsewhere but,...
I've just found a 12L pot [$14 at cheap as chips if anyone is looking for one] 
and want to find a simple, cheap, easy, leakproof way to get the 1/2in copper coil
through the ss pot leaving a 1/2in nipple or socket on the outside. The cheap part rules out a bulkhead from BB or G&G. I've got plenty in the way of tools but the pot's too thin to mig a socket to. I can silver solder brass and have some silicon to make washers but not sure the easiest way to go. Thanks for any pointers, Cheers


----------



## AndrewQLD

glaab said:


> sorry if this has been covered elsewhere but,...
> I've just found a 12L pot [$14 at cheap as chips if anyone is looking for one]
> and want to find a simple, cheap, easy, leakproof way to get the 1/2in copper coil
> through the ss pot leaving a 1/2in nipple or socket on the outside. The cheap part rules out a bulkhead from BB or G&G. I've got plenty in the way of tools but the pot's too thin to mig a socket to. I can silver solder brass and have some silicon to make washers but not sure the easiest way to go. Thanks for any pointers, Cheers



Here's a pic of mine, it's water tight and easy to build. No silver solder it's all compression fittings.






andrew


----------



## KHB

How is everyone getting the kettle elements to seal, i have tried twice now with two different ones and differnent thickness pots and still cant get a seal. What am i doing wrong??


----------



## jimmybee

Browndog

one more question...

That junction box has a hole in it to go on the end of the external part of the element, yes?

If so are you screwing (clamping) the j box in between the element and the threaded socket? If so do you put a extra rubber washer in there? So there would be an washer either side the the plastic to create a good seal.

And does the plastic get affected by the heat coming thru the element...?

Cheers Jimmy





browndog said:


> Here is a few more pics
> 
> View attachment 34961
> 
> 
> View attachment 34962
> 
> 
> View attachment 34963
> 
> 
> View attachment 34964
> 
> 
> View attachment 34965
> 
> 
> View attachment 34966
> 
> 
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog


----------



## TidalPete

KHB said:


> How is everyone getting the kettle elements to seal, i have tried twice now with two different ones and differnent thickness pots and still cant get a seal. What am i doing wrong??



I used the seal that was used in the cheap kettle the element came in.The small jiffy box that houses the element's wiring fitted in the groove of the seal along with the bottom of the pot the element sits on & the whole lot squashes together to form a watertight seal if you get my drift?

TP


----------



## KHB

TidalPete said:


> I used the seal that was used in the cheap kettle the element came in.The small jiffy box that houses the element's wiring fitted in the groove of the seal along with the bottom of the pot the element sits on & the whole lot squashes together to form a watertight seal if you get my drift?
> 
> TP




Yes i do but the two units i had only had 3 little screws and they didnt screw togfether enough to get it tight on the pot. IE it has a wobblenot tight sealed.


----------



## glaab

sorry, it seemed like a sensible question at the time, i'll get it sorted


----------



## AndrewQLD

KHB said:


> Yes i do but the two units i had only had 3 little screws and they didnt screw togfether enough to get it tight on the pot. IE it has a wobblenot tight sealed.



depending on how thin the wall is you may need to add a couple of washers to the screws so they can pull the element tight against the seal in the pot wall.

Andrew


----------



## absinthe

glaab said:


> sorry if this has been covered elsewhere but,...
> I've just found a 12L pot [$14 at cheap as chips if anyone is looking for one]
> and want to find a simple, cheap, easy, leakproof way to get the 1/2in copper coil
> through the ss pot leaving a 1/2in nipple or socket on the outside. The cheap part rules out a bulkhead from BB or G&G. I've got plenty in the way of tools but the pot's too thin to mig a socket to. I can silver solder brass and have some silicon to make washers but not sure the easiest way to go. Thanks for any pointers, Cheers


although i didnt use a pot mine has no hole in the side apart from the element:


----------



## KHB

AndrewQLD said:


> depending on how thin the wall is you may need to add a couple of washers to the screws so they can pull the element tight against the seal in the pot wall.
> 
> Andrew




OK cheers


----------



## TidalPete

KHB said:


> Yes i do but the two units i had only had 3 little screws and they didnt screw togfether enough to get it tight on the pot. IE it has a wobblenot tight sealed.



Take the screws to a bolt & fastner shop (Or an electrical supplier) & get longer ones.
Being from an electrical appliance it's a good chance they are BA (British Association) thread which is quite common. SS or brass of course.
I MAY have siliconed around the undersides of the seal as well. Bit hazy as it's a while back now.

TP --- Edit --- or maybe Andrew's right & the screws are too long not too short (Hence the wobble).


----------



## hockadays

bluetoff said:


> Can i ask about the kind of PIDs people are using too? What kind of PIDs are people using
> 
> Do the ramp soak ones let you set the temps for a set period of time and then ramp it up. So could you set it for 67 for the mash and then raise it to mashout and have it do that automatically? Is the the benefit over just an on/off one?
> 
> I'm pretty hopeless when it comes to electronics sorry
> 
> What other options are there?




For my Hlt I went a straight on/off pid from Auberins and the HX the programable one from auberins let me know if you want model numbers. The programable one is pretty straight forward to set up. Goes like this on the brew today: Set Hlt to 60degc easy. Set first step of program in hold mode which is 55degc. I have a dial faced gage on the HX and the temp probe on the return to the mash. Get the Hx to 60degc in hold mode. Mash in. Start program and recirc the mash. First step is 15min at 55degc. Second is 15min ramp from 55 to 64degc. Third is rest at 64degc for 40min. Forth is 10min ramp from 64 to 69degc. Fifth is 20min rest at 69. Six is ramp from 69 to 73 over 7min. seventh is hold at 73 until I change program. It does it all automatically all you have to check is the flow rate is good for your system and dial in 73 degc for your sparge water. Once you mash in you can come back in two hours to start the sparge.


----------



## Screwtop

TidalPete said:


> Take the screws to a bolt & fastner shop (Or an electrical supplier) & get longer ones.
> Being from an electrical appliance it's a good chance they are BA (British Association) thread which is quite common. SS or brass of course.
> I MAY have siliconed around the undersides of the seal as well. Bit hazy as it's a while back now.
> 
> TP --- Edit --- or maybe Andrew's right & the screws are too long not too short (Hence the wobble).




Pete, could be the diameter of the pot, lots of guys are using small volume pots now and I think I would have difficulty sealing my jug element through the side wall of the new one that I bought for HARMS MK II. Will be mounting it through the bottom this time, easier too, can locate it in the centre of the copper coil and fit more coils in the pot.

Cheers,

Screwy


----------



## paulwolf350

KHB said:


> How is everyone getting the kettle elements to seal, i have tried twice now with two different ones and differnent thickness pots and still cant get a seal. What am i doing wrong??



I cut the back out of the plastic kettle, the pot is so thin it adds hardly any thickness to the combined thicckness of the pot +plastic bit. I put the silicone seal through both the pot and the plastic wall of the kettle. Put the element throught the silicone seal and do up as it was in the kettle.

Paul


----------



## paulwolf350

Screwtop said:


> Will be mounting it through the bottom this time, easier too, can locate it in the centre of the copper coil and fit more coils in the pot.



Shit, that is a brilliant idea, I am doing that with my herms element. First thing tomorrow

Paul


----------



## AndrewQLD

The real problem, and I experienced this myself, is that the posts on the element are too long for a thin walled vessel. so when you put the element in the pot with the seal in the hole and you put the plastic back plate on the posts go through the back plate and then you use the screws to tighten the element against the wall of the vessel, the screws are drawing the element and plastic back plate together but because the vessel wall is so thin it won't tighten enough.

The solution I found was to put 2 small washers on each post (they need to be able to fit over the posts and not sit on them) effectively increasing the wall thickness of the pot so to speak.

Sorry, I'm not very good at explaining things like this but I hope you get the idea.

And as far as mounting the element on the bottom, that's where I have mine but be VERY careful about getting a good seal, any leaks will drip straight into the kettle cord.

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## woodmac66

Andrew I am in the Process of making a Herms and the bottom is where I would like to put the element but that was exactly my concern, should it leak!
Why is it the most logical and practical solution always has a downside!
Interested to hear what people have done to reassure themsleves against this.


Woody


----------



## newguy

woodmac said:


> Andrew I am in the Process of making a Herms and the bottom is where I would like to put the element but that was exactly my concern, should it leak!
> Why is it the most logical and practical solution always has a downside!
> Interested to hear what people have done to reassure themsleves against this.



I use aquarium caulking. It holds up to the heat (up to 75C in my system) and is "safe". I say "safe" because, to my reasoning, if it's safe for live fish, it's probably safe for humans. "Safe" being a relative term - safer than construction caulking.

It does have a lifetime and has to be replaced every now and again. My present system was constructed a little over 4 years ago and no leaks yet. I used it on an earlier esky-based mash tun and it lasted about 5 years before I had to touch it up with some fresh caulk.

For a vessel that will never see wort, such as your HE, I'd recommend using gutter (eavestrough) caulking. Be careful with other types of caulk because most aren't rated for immersion.


----------



## AndrewQLD

woodmac said:


> Andrew I am in the Process of making a Herms and the bottom is where I would like to put the element but that was exactly my concern, should it leak!
> Why is it the most logical and practical solution always has a downside!
> Interested to hear what people have done to reassure themsleves against this.
> 
> 
> Woody



I made sure mine sealed good and tight Woodmac, then I applied sikaflex just to be sure.

Andrew


----------



## jimmyjack

> QUOTE (altstart @ Jan 20 2010, 04:02 AM)
> My herms uses a 1500 watt element and experience has shown that it is underpowered. It is proving impossible to find a 2400 watt non screw in type element but I already have a handheld 2400 watt water heater that is no longer used in the brewery. my thoughts are to adapt this heater and use it in addition to the 1500 watt element. I am useing a 19 litre pot with a 6 metre S/S coil this should improve my ramp times considerably. I am aware of the additional power requirements in order to do this safely but before I start down this road is anyone else useing this amont of heating capacity.
> Cheers Altstart



Alstart this is exactly what I have done. I did not want to mess with electricity and also wanted to be able to use my hand held for other situations. I dangle my hand held in the middle of the SS coil. The unit itself holds 2.5 Liters of water and is insulated which helps increase temp very quickly. Also in the picture is my chiller which is the same unit but without the top cut off. 










Cheers,


JJ


----------



## TidalPete

Screwtop said:


> Pete, could be the diameter of the pot, lots of guys are using small volume pots now and I think I would have difficulty sealing my jug element through the side wall of the new one that I bought for HARMS MK II. Will be mounting it through the bottom this time, easier too, can locate it in the centre of the copper coil and fit more coils in the pot.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Screwy





As KHB never mentioned it I took it for granted that he went through the bottom (Flat surface) as I did with my 7.5 litre pot.  
I pretty certain that I did use silicone as well for a safety measure.
Selleys Silicone 401(-60 deg c to +205 deg c) from bunnings.

TP


----------



## woodmac66

AndrewQLD said:


> I made sure mine sealed good and tight Woodmac, then I applied sikaflex just to be sure.
> 
> Andrew


Sikaflex I have some of that and you are right that is awesome stuff and very flexible so it should last pretty well!
Newguy will have a look at the eavestrough!

Woody


----------



## Screwtop

TidalPete said:


> As KHB never mentioned it I took it for granted that he went through the bottom (Flat surface) as I did with my 7.5 litre pot.
> I pretty certain that I did use silicone as well for a safety measure.
> Selleys Silicone 401(-60 deg c to +205 deg c) from bunnings.
> 
> TP




Pete, how have you (and others) supported the HE after base mounting the element ? The shelf in my brewstand is covered with checkplate. Wouldn't be a problem if it sat on an open truss type shelf.

Screwy


----------



## TidalPete

Screwtop said:


> Pete, how have you (and others) supported the HE after base mounting the element ? The shelf in my brewstand is covered with checkplate. Wouldn't be a problem if it sat on an open truss type shelf.
> 
> Screwy



Both top & bottom levels of my brewframe has stained & estapoled plywood floors (For want of a better expression) & it was only a matter of gluing on three equally spaced wooden blocks deeper than the electrics box under the pot.
If you're not keen on using wood you could bolt three pieces of ss RHS (You could even blank of the ends with those plastic end blanks you get from Clark Rubber) to your ally base plate & Bob's your Uncle.
To ensure the HE doesn't slip off these raised bits each block has a short piece of ally angle iron screwed on (In your case bolted on with the same bolts used to hold the RHS down).

TP


----------



## KHB

TidalPete said:


> As KHB never mentioned it I took it for granted that he went through the bottom (Flat surface) as I did with my 7.5 litre pot.
> I pretty certain that I did use silicone as well for a safety measure.
> Selleys Silicone 401(-60 deg c to +205 deg c) from bunnings.
> 
> TP




I actually use a cut down keggle with a 2.4KW stokes element welded in but have tried to make a smaller one as i want quicker ramp times, i tried going through both the side and bottom and could not get a seal either way!

KHB


----------



## browndog

jimmybee said:


> Browndog
> 
> one more question...
> 
> That junction box has a hole in it to go on the end of the external part of the element, yes?
> 
> If so are you screwing (clamping) the j box in between the element and the threaded socket? If so do you put a extra rubber washer in there? So there would be an washer either side the the plastic to create a good seal.
> 
> And does the plastic get affected by the heat coming thru the element...?
> 
> Cheers Jimmy



Correct, the S/S fitting goes though the junction box, I'll assemble it with copious amounts of silicon and the rubber washer on the element will but to the fitting. I'm hoping the base of the element will not get hot enought to damage the junction box. Time will tell, if i does I'll have to make one fron S/S.

cheers

Browndog


----------



## bulp

Screwtop said:


> Pete, how have you (and others) supported the HE after base mounting the element ? The shelf in my brewstand is covered with checkplate. Wouldn't be a problem if it sat on an open truss type shelf.
> 
> Screwy



Gday Screwy 

This is how i mounted my HE mate, just welded up a bit of scrap RHS i had lying around .


----------



## Tony

What sort of temperatures does the mash return get up wo when your ramping the mash temp in one of these small vessel HERMS?

I have always been a bit concerned that returning the wort at too higher temp will give me lower attenuation and risk killing the enzymes?

I read a little while back for pics of HERMS returns. Here is mine.

The return slides up and down through the lid so i can adjust it to sit on the top of the mash

cheers


----------



## technocat

Tony said:


> What sort of temperatures does the mash return get up wo when your ramping the mash temp in one of these small vessel HERMS?
> I have always been a bit concerned that returning the wort at too higher temp will give me lower attenuation and risk killing the enzymes?
> I read a little while back for pics of HERMS returns. Here is mine.
> The return slides up and down through the lid so i can adjust it to sit on the top of the mash



Tony you can monitor the temperature back into the Tun by a simple addition of a MM temp gauge S/s a T piece and a reducer as the thread on the short probe version of the MM is smaller. All up a shade over fifty bucks.

View attachment 35182


:icon_cheers:


----------



## sinkas

where is a good place to get an SSR?, how do you know whats a good one and what s a chit one?


----------



## technocat

sinkas said:


> where is a good place to get an SSR?, how do you know whats a good one and what s a chit one?



Read my post on "dead ssr" ..Global Village on ebay 40 amp SSR' for AU$17.00 + post .........twist their arm and you will get them cheaper and the good thing is they work well. Been using them for three months now and no problems


cheers
BN


----------



## gregs

To all who are interested I sealed the element in the bottom of my HERMS using Loctite 567 this is a dedicated water and gas sealant. The pot in my system is a thin walled 20 litre job and the element is a 2 bsp fitting and nut, this element and nut when placed through the bottom of the HERMS sandwiches a die- cast electrical box that houses the wiring. I then drilled a 1/8 hole in the lid of the die-cast box so I could detect future leaks, as water would drip on the floor if a leak ever eventuated.


----------



## woodmac66

gregs said:


> To all who are interested I sealed the element in the bottom of my HERMS using Loctite 567 this is a dedicated water and gas sealant. The pot in my system is a thin walled 20 litre job and the element is a 2" bsp fitting and nut, this element and nut when placed through the bottom of the HERMS sandwiches a die- cast electrical box that houses the wiring. I then drilled a 1/8 hole in the lid of the die-cast box so I could detect future leaks, as water would drip on the floor if a leak ever eventuated.
> View attachment 35186
> 
> View attachment 35188




Very neat mate , looks good!
What size element is that and how big is the Pot??
Are you still building or is it finished ?


Woody


----------



## gregs

woodmac said:


> Very neat mate , looks good!
> What size element is that and how big is the Pot??
> Are you still building or is it finished ?
> 
> 
> Woody




The element is a 2400 watt and the pot is a 20 litre job with an 11 metre stainless coil. Ive only ever brewed double batches and with some sorting out with flow rates ECT, thanks to AndrewQld now holds mash temp between HERMS and Mash Tun perfectly and ramps at 1.6 degrees per min. Hope this helps. Cheers.


----------



## browndog

The thing about sealing and adhesion in general is the surface preparation of the mating parts. They MUST be clean and free of contaminants, by that I mean dust, grease and even the oils from your skin. Give your parts to be bonded a scrub with hot soapy water using a scotchbrite pad and dry them thoughoughly. Then just prior to applying your sealant, give them a wipe over with a clean rag soaked in metho.

Cheers

Browndog


----------



## leiothrix

For sealing the kettle element into my 20L Big-W pot I used a bit of silicone from a baking tray. Cut up a $3 23cm torte tray. Basically put a square of it on the outside and cut a hole through the middle matching the hole in the pot. 

The silicone baking tray washer sits on the outside of the pot. The washer from the kettle has (on mine at least) a thick side and a thin side. Mounted it with the thick side in the pot, and sitting over the top of the other silicone washer on the outside.

Tightened up the screws that came with it and it holds water just fine. The baking tray is food safe and rated from -40 to +220*C, so should be fine for our purposes.

I cut up a little jiffy box to cover the whole lot on the outside. It basically sits around the back part of the element, not touching either it or the pot. Cut an IEC shaped hole in the front and mounted the halogen light on the top. Looks pretty neat, and you get to see the light flash when the PID is using the element.

HTH, 
Rob.


----------



## TidalPete

browndog said:


> The thing about sealing and adhesion in general is the surface preparation of the mating parts. They MUST be clean and free of contaminants, by that I mean dust, grease and even the oils from your skin. Give your parts to be bonded a scrub with hot soapy water using a scotchbrite pad and dry them thoughoughly. Then just prior to applying your sealant, give them a wipe over with a clean rag soaked in metho.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Browndog



All very good points Browndog but you forgot to mention that a light rub with fine emery cloth before cleaning as per your post gets rid of the "Greasy" surface normally associated with stainless steel. :icon_cheers: 

TP


----------



## bradsbrew

TidalPete said:


> All very good points Browndog but you forgot to mention that a light rub with fine emery cloth before cleaning as per your post gets rid of the "Greasy" surface normally associated with stainless steel. :icon_cheers:
> 
> TP



Ah but Pete in my experience i have found you should clean before the emery to remove contaminates ( as contaminates can be scored into surface during abrasion) and clean after emery to remove residue.

Brad


----------



## MattC

:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## TidalPete

bradsbrew said:


> Ah but Pete in my experience i have found you should clean before the emery to remove contaminates ( as contaminates can be scored into surface during abrasion) and clean after emery to remove residue.
> 
> Brad



Perhaps you have a point there Brad but when I was in my trade the flux (Read cleaning agent) was applied after the light sandover on stainless steel unless of course the stainless was REALLY crappy in which case an initial cleanup was necessary first up.
Bugger it! I reckon we are both correct.  :icon_cheers: 

TP


----------



## browndog

bradsbrew said:


> Ah but Pete in my experience i have found you should clean before the emery to remove contaminates ( as contaminates can be scored into surface during abrasion) and clean after emery to remove residue.
> 
> Brad



Go to the head of the class Brad.

-BD


----------



## Tony

Beernut said:


> Tony you can monitor the temperature back into the Tun by a simple addition of a MM temp gauge S/s a T piece and a reducer as the thread on the short probe version of the MM is smaller. All up a shade over fifty bucks.


Um........ :lol: 

I already have a PT100 and a digital display for the return temp to the mash tun. I also monitoe the mash exit temp and the temp mid mash tun. 

I have had my HERMS for almost 5 years now. I only use it for temp stability in the mash..... not stepping.

I was more worried about the effect on the beer, that heating the liquid return to the mash would have. I would like to know from someone who does step mashes by ramping the temp in the mash using their herms......... what the temp of the return liquor gets too...... not how to measure it 

I have to run mine 2 deg above mash temp to hold temp in my tun and to raise the temp with the poor flow rate i get through my FB..... i would have to have it almost at boiling temp in the return..... which would be bad.

I use my HERMS to maintain temp during steps and raise temps with eiter decoctions or infusions depending on the beer style im making.

I just dont like the idea of heating the mash to say 72 deg in the return when im mashing at 64 deg for a dry beer. Its only going to create high order sugars and reduce my attenuation. thats my concern anyway.

Id like to hear from those doing this what their findings are before i go doing extensive mods to my system for no apparent gain.

cheers


----------



## TidalPete

browndog said:


> Go to the head of the class Brad.
> 
> -BD



Never had a dud stainless join in 40 odd years of my trade Browndog so I'm happy doing things the way I do. :icon_cheers:
Read my post again. Bloody fishing expeditions! :lol: 

TP


----------



## Screwtop

Tony said:


> Um........ :lol:
> 
> I already have a PT100 and a digital display for the return temp to the mash tun. I also monitoe the mash exit temp and the temp mid mash tun.
> 
> I have had my HERMS for almost 5 years now. I only use it for temp stability in the mash..... not stepping.
> 
> I was more worried about the effect on the beer, that heating the liquid return to the mash would have. I would like to know from someone who does step mashes by ramping the temp in the mash using their herms......... what the temp of the return liquor gets too...... not how to measure it
> 
> I have to run mine 2 deg above mash temp to hold temp in my tun and to raise the temp with the poor flow rate i get through my FB..... i would have to have it almost at boiling temp in the return..... which would be bad.
> 
> I use my HERMS to maintain temp during steps and raise temps with eiter decoctions or infusions depending on the beer style im making.
> 
> I just dont like the idea of heating the mash to say 72 deg in the return when im mashing at 64 deg for a dry beer. Its only going to create high order sugars and reduce my attenuation. thats my concern anyway.
> 
> Id like to hear from those doing this what their findings are before i go doing extensive mods to my system for no apparent gain.
> 
> cheers




Tony, pretty sure we swapped PM's about this a couple of years ago. I never let the temp of the wort rise above my mash temp. 

Cheers,

Screwy


----------



## aldee

bulp said:


> Gday Screwy
> 
> This is how i mounted my HE mate, just welded up a bit of scrap RHS i had lying around .
> 
> View attachment 35180



Thats a good looking setup Bulp, whats the plastic boxes on the top of the HE ?


----------



## newguy

Tony said:


> I was more worried about the effect on the beer, that heating the liquid return to the mash would have. I would like to know from someone who does step mashes by ramping the temp in the mash using their herms......... what the temp of the return liquor gets too...... not how to measure it



In my system (posted it earlier in this thread), I measure mash temperature and the temperature of the water in the HE. My control system is based on the mash temperature. Anyway, the maximum temperature difference between the HE and the mash, while stepping, is 2.5C. When the mash temp is close to the set point, the delta approaches 0. Since the maximum temperature of the outflow is the temperature of the HE, this is my outflow - mash delta T. I use it for temperature stepping on every brew.

It really sounds like you need a different false bottom or whatever arrangement you have in your mash tun. Your flow rate should be quite high to minimise the outflow - mash temp temperature difference.


----------



## Tony

2.5 deg hey..... well thats ok.

I do need a better FB and also may play with opening up my mills rollers 0.1mm

My main problem is that i get such a low flow after recircing for a while that its just a trickle on the return and i almost need it boiling to raise the mash temp. I recon it takes 20 min to half an hour to recirc all the mash liquor.

There is work to be done i think


----------



## AndrewQLD

Tony said:


> 2.5 deg hey..... well thats ok.
> 
> I do need a better FB and also may play with opening up my mills rollers 0.1mm
> 
> My main problem is that i get such a low flow after recircing for a while that its just a trickle on the return and i almost need it boiling to raise the mash temp. I recon it takes 20 min to half an hour to recirc all the mash liquor.
> 
> There is work to be done i think



Slow flow can be fixed by a courser crush Tony along with some rice hulls, there is no reason a full recirc should take you that long unless your grain bed is compacting and restricting the flow.
Gregs has his system dialed in now from what he was saying today and is getting a good fast recirculation, maybe he will comment on his changes.

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## bigbird

Not sure this is the right place for this but seems a lot hermies are step mashing. I've never done one but would like to start doing them now that I've set up a HERMS system and have a few questions.... Was reading this from How to Brew :

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-4.html

"Malted barley also contains a lot of amino acid chains which form the simple proteins needed by the germinating plant. In the wort, these proteins are instead utilized by the yeast for their growth and development. Most wort proteins, including some enzymes like the amylases, are not soluble until the mash reaches temperatures associated with the protein rest (113-131F). The two main proteolytic enzymes responsible are peptidase and protease. Peptidase works to provide the wort with amino acid nutrients that will be used by the yeast. Protease works to break up the larger proteins which enhances the head retention of beer and reduces haze. In fully modified malts, these enzymes have done their work during the malting process.

The temperature and pH ranges for these two proteolytic enzymes overlap. The optimum pH range is 4.2 - 5.3 and both enzymes are active enough between 113 - 131F that talking about an optimum range for each is not relevant. This optimum pH range is a bit low with respect to most mashes, but the typical mash pH of 5.3 is not out of the ballpark. There is no need to attempt to lower the mash pH to facilitate the use of these enzymes. The typical Protein Rest at 120 - 130F is used to break up proteins which might otherwise cause chill haze and can improve the head retention. *This rest should only be used when using moderately-modified malts, or when using fully modified malts with a large proportion (>25%) of unmalted grain, e.g. flaked barley, wheat, rye, or oatmeal. Using this rest in a mash consisting mainly of fully modified malts would break up the proteins responsible for body and head retention and result in a thin, watery beer.* The standard time for a protein rest is 20 - 30 minutes." 

So a few questions around this...

Do you still do a protein rest with fully modified malts (I think most are these days)?

What sort of mash schedule do you use/find best? i.e step temp and duration...

Any other valuable advice you can offer would be awesome.... I love the HERMS action.

Cheers, Dave.


----------



## newguy

bigbird said:


> So a few questions around this...
> 
> Do you still do a protein rest with fully modified malts (I think most are these days)?



Never.



> What sort of mash schedule do you use/find best? i.e step temp and duration...
> 
> Any other valuable advice you can offer would be awesome.... I love the HERMS action.



Do you mean if I do have a high % of something like malted wheat? If so, when I brew a weizen I aim low (temperature wise) for my strike water so that my mash settles at about 49C ish, then I immediately start the ramp to my chosen saccharification temperature. I find this does a good job of actually reducing the proteins without getting rid of them entirely. The first time I did this with my HERMS I let it rest at that temperature for 20 minutes before I started the ramp. That was too long - the beer had no head.


----------



## bigbird

I was meanin less than 25% of something like malted wheat.
So a protein rest is not the go for a standard sort of malt brew.

I was thinkin of a schedule along the lines of 63 degrees for 30-40 min, 68 degrees for 30-40 min, mashout 78 degrees for 10 min.

Not sure if thats any good or not...


----------



## hockadays

I do protien as it's good for yeast and chill haze. My schedule is 55 degc for 15, 64 for 40, 69 for 20 and mash out at 73.


----------



## glaab

what PID controllers do you guys use?, someone has already asked this but didn't get too many replies.
I'm thinking of ordering this Auberins one:
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...p;products_id=5
Has anyone else used it and which sensor did you use?
tHanks for any replies, Cheers


----------



## hockadays

The pods are good from auberins, I would use pt100 probes as they are more accurate at the temps we use.


----------



## sinkas

so how do you get a large probe liek the PT100's to be in the flow of the wort?


----------



## bulp

These sensors look the goods LINK, they didn't have them when i bought my sensors might have to upgrade, and these Panel mounts look good too. Also available in "k" type. My PT100 probes are in a stainless thermowell that sits in a 't' piece fitting at the Herms outlet, so past the thermowell and into the top of the mash.


----------



## glaab

thnx for the repiles. I went with the sensor in bulps LINK [ thanks ] and their PID Temperature Controller w/ Ramp/soak, (SYL-2352P). Should do he job ok I hope


----------



## gregs

AndrewQLD said:


> Slow flow can be fixed by a courser crush Tony along with some rice hulls, there is no reason a full recirc should take you that long unless your grain bed is compacting and restricting the flow.
> Gregs has his system dialed in now from what he was saying today and is getting a good fast recirculation, maybe he will comment on his changes.
> 
> Cheers
> Andrew




Flow rate is the key to HERMS brewing;

After building a HERMS system and having enough coil length and heating capacity to do the job; I am now convinced that flow is the key to dialling in your system.

I ran my system with water to test its heating capacities and found after several runs that the HERMS could ramp at better than 1 degree per min and the water in the mash tun followed close behind. After completing my first brew with the help of AndrewQld as he supplied the grain with additional rice hull ECT all was fine and I was one happy brewer. 

During the following brews on my system without the use of rice hulls I found that the mash cycle was holding temp ok but the flow rate was very slow. When it came to mash out there was not enough flow to ramp the temp in the mash tun; the wort exiting the HERM was at 78 degrees but the grist after 10 or so min a good 10 degrees lower making mashout in reasonable time hopeless, if at all possible. I know all the experienced guys say they only ever read the wort temp exiting the HERMS but at a very slow flow rate you can never achieve a decent mashout as the turnover of wort would take forever. After Reading through this thread and doing another brew at Andrews place with rice hulls in the grist and timing the flow rate at a little better than 2 litres per min in a 23litre batch, his wort turnover during the mash was close to 10 times over during the 60 min so when it came time to ramp to mashout 78 degrees his mash tun temp gauge followed the HERMS controller temp by approximately 2 degrees until equilibrium was achieved and all that took was 6 to7 min tops. The brew itself after mash in was completed in just over 3 hours. 

The next brew on my system was a mid strength 46 litre batch completed in the same manor and went perfectly. 80% efficiency all targets hit 3.5 hours from mash in including cleanup and packed away. FLOW IS THE KEY.


----------



## QldKev

I can hear it now, 

Use the FLOW Luke... 

May the flow be with you...

QldKev


----------



## gregs

QldKev said:


> I can hear it now,
> 
> Use the FLOW Luke...
> 
> May the flow be with you...
> 
> QldKev




No Kev its the (fwo Gwrasshpoer)! :lol:


----------



## MCT

Hey JJ, would you mind posting some more pictures/details of your HX?
I'm looking to do something similar with a hand held element.



jimmyjack said:


> Alstart this is exactly what I have done. I did not want to mess with electricity and also wanted to be able to use my hand held for other situations. I dangle my hand held in the middle of the SS coil. The unit itself holds 2.5 Liters of water and is insulated which helps increase temp very quickly. Also in the picture is my chiller which is the same unit but without the top cut off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> JJ


----------



## jimmyjack

> Hey JJ, would you mind posting some more pictures/details of your HX?
> I'm looking to do something similar with a hand held element.



Yea no probs I will do it when I get home from work tonight.


Cheers,

JJ


----------



## roller997

First of all, thank you for all the contributions and questions - They have helped me quite a lot when thinking about a HERMS system I am planning to design and build.

I was oringinally trying to design a HERMS system that would produce close to 100 liters of fermentable wort, however I am coming to the conclusion that this may be a bit too ambitious (and expensive). 
I have been doing AG brewing with 50 liters for some time and I do want to get greater consistency with the mashing process, automation, create more volume and as time progresses, automate the system to ultimately use a brewtroller for most of the process. 
For the purpose of automation and wanting to operate the brewing system inside, the aim for the system will be to heat everything via electric elements rather than using gas. 
I have a qualified electrican who has agreed to wiring up a number of 20amp circuits to permit me to use quite powerful heating elements.

It seems that there are a few variables to consider when looking at raising the mash temperature via the HE and it appears to be somewhat of a balancing act. 

From what I have read so far and my limited knowledge of physics, I have drawn the following conclusions: 



Matrial for Coil - Copper is much better than Stainless at conducting heat
Length of Coil - The longer the coil, the more heat is transferred (I am assuming here that there is a point where the mash liquor has reached virtually the same temperature as the HE water)
Speed of liquor passing through Coil - The faster the liquid passes through the coil, the less heat it would pickup unless the coil is long enough and element is powerful enough. One of the concerns is the compaction of the mash bed and the availability of a decent false bottom to stop that from happening
Thickness of Coil - For a given length of coil, the thicker the coil, the greater the flow and hence the mash liquor temperature is not raised as much as it would be for a thinner coil at the same flow speed.
Element power (given a fixed sized vessel) - Get the most powerful element you can fit into the HE to minimize the time spent moving between mash temperatures
Vessel size (given a fixed size element) - The smaller the better for ramping up temperatures, however there seems some concern that a larger vessel holds the temperature more constant when a lot of liquid is being heated at various mashing stages and more copper / stainless can be fitted into a larger vessel
I am keen to have a combination of stainless piping / fittings along with silicon hosing to provide flexibility and the ability to clean everything thoroughly with aggressive cleaning agent when required. 
For that reason, I am wondering if anyone cares to share any experiences they had at a set flow rate to establish how many meters of copper or stainless would be required to get to a point of diminishing retrun in terms of heat pickup by the mash liquor? 
I would assume that there is a point with copper where the temperature of the mash liquor is close to identical to the ambient HE water temperature. In a similar fashion, if the Stainless coil is long enough, it "should" eventually get pretty close to the ambient HE water temperature. 
Also, I am not sure if this is might be a way to overcome the reduced heat conductivity, however would heating the water a few degrees higher than you would with a copper pipe overcome this issue?

I noticed that there have been a few comments on heating elements being installed and how to avoid them from leaking. This made me think that it isn't quite so straight forward to seal the heating elements and there is little chance to put the HE vessel under pressure. 
My original idea was to use a pressure cooker in a fashion to heat the mashout liquor into the kettle so that it will be within 2-5 degrees of boiling temperature to avoid scorching the wort. 
In theory a pressure cooker could get up to 120 degrees celcius under pressure, so if the elment is powerful enough to sustain a constant flow of 78 degree liquor through the HE, it could have gotten the liquor close to boiling point, even if stainless was used for the HE coil. With elements potentially leaking, such a setup is definately off my list, however I still like the idea of a 10 liter pressure cooker being setup as the HE with pipes exiting through the lid and with the most powerful short element I can find being mounted through the centre of the same lid. 

With such a setup, what are the views of at the time of mashout to circulate the wort through the HE which is set to a temperature that ideally ramps up the to 95-98 degrees before it hits the kettle?

I would be very keen to get some indication on what sort of maximum sized system one could build with 1/2" piping and standard March pumps assuming I can get some large enough elements for each stage and a decent false bottom to permit fast recirculation? 

There are also concerns in terms of what elements to use for getting to a rolling boil quickly without scorching the wort. Have there been any practical experiences in terms of what heat density element is too much for wort? 


Thanks


Roller


----------



## glaab

Roller997 said:


> With such a setup, what are the views of at the time of mashout to circulate the wort through the HE which is set to a temperature that ideally ramps up the to 95-98 degrees before it hits the kettle?



I'm not sure you wanna exceed 78C for mashout.


----------



## roller997

glaab said:


> I'm not sure you wanna exceed 78C for mashout.



I am sorry about not being clear enough in my description. I did not intend on exceeding 78 degree mashout temp for the mashing process.
What I meant was the HLT will supply water at 78-79 degrees and the wort will then exit the mashing tun. Instead of being pumped straight to the kettle for the elements to bring it to a boil, I was planning to pump it through the HE again which is by now set to a much higher temperature. 

I am essentially trying to reduce the timeframe that the wort has contact with the kettle elements before it has achieves a rolling boil as I hope this will reduce the chance of scorching the wort.


----------



## mxd

Hi Guys

is an 80ltr esky (internal dimensions 30cm Wide x 35cm Deep x 56 cm Long) too big for a Mash Tun in a HERMS system ? 

If too big for single would that be OK only for Doubles ? 

I currently do BIAB and find I am spending too much time brewing (as in too often) so I would like to move to doubles for my "regulars" and singles for my play (only when I have time).

So currently I have a 50 Ltr urn, 2 elements 1 mounted 1 over the side) and the above mentioned esky. 

So I thought I could use the esky as a mash tun, as its HERMS it may keep the heat ok ? 

Then buy a new 80 ltr esky (the techni brand that is well insulated) and use that as my beer/BBQ esky and a HLT (heat water in urn move to HLT (can use over the side element to heat here as it is only required for boil).

Does this sound a possible rig ?


My thoughts for a brew day were.
assume 66 Deg Mash 5 kg grain 78 degree mash out

get HE to 66
get urn to 75 degrees (mash temp + 9 degrees to average out grain temp and water temp) 
put 13 ltrs of water from urn to mash tun
put grain in mash tun
mash
start flow from MLT to HE
whilst mashing Fill kettle and heat and hold 80 deg
As getting to end of mash move all water in kettle to HLT (new esky)

#this is where I get confused but I think it is something like this
heat up HE to 78
hold for 10 min
loop
start moving wort from MLT to kettle
Start adding water from HLT to MLT - some recirculating here still running through HE ?
Start heating in kettle
stop When enough volume in kettle- stop all the flow
Start the boil process.
Add Hops
etc..


----------



## newguy

Roller997 said:


> (Lots of good stuff to consider snipped)



You've touched on all the things that you have to somehow balance in a HERMS. However, I'd recommend NOT going the pressure-cooker-esque route you mentioned. When doing ramps you don't want to flash boil or otherwise drastically heat the wort as you're denaturing (killing) enzymes that way.

I'd personally recommend going for the biggest ID copper coil you can afford - about 8m. If price was no option go for 12mm (ish) ID copper tubing. Reasons being heat conductivity and flow rate. Your PID controller can handle things if your wort outlet temperature is high, or simply chop a temperature ramp into smaller steps so that temperature overshoot while ramping isn't that big of a deal. Bending the copper into a nice coil is a bit of a pain but all you really need is a good form to wrap it around. Select a pot to house the coil first, then find something to use as a form afterward. If the tubing tends to kink, fill it with sand first (seal both ends to keep the sand in), then try wrapping it. It won't kink with sand in it.




mxd said:


> is an 80ltr esky (internal dimensions 30cm Wide x 35cm Deep x 56 cm Long) too big for a Mash Tun in a HERMS system ?



Nope. My mash tun in my HERMS is a 64l aluminum pot and I do ~42l finished volume of wort when I brew. It's small for super heavyweight beers like 1.100 OG barleywines and the like but an 80l esky would be perfect.


----------



## mxd

newguy said:


> Nope. My mash tun in my HERMS is a 64l aluminum pot and I do ~42l finished volume of wort when I brew. It's small for super heavyweight beers like 1.100 OG barleywines and the like but an 80l esky would be perfect.



I didn't know if there would be a coverage/grain bed depth issue with a single batch ?

Now I better get on my way to making a HE with some form of heat controller on it.

thanks
Matt


----------



## mxd

could THIS be ok as a start for a HE


----------



## schooey

I've read this thread for a while, and kinda tossed up whether to post or not, but decided to in the end. Obviously these are only my opinions, but I have tried them over the last two years and I can only give you my experiences and what I have learnt in that time.

This is my system;









As you can see, my HERMS coil is in my HLT. Why did I do this you might ask... well at the time it made sense as I was trying to keep things as simple as I could to achieve what I wanted. I was also trying to keep my pump circuit as compact as possible.

I use a stainless coil. I have no issue with heat transfer/conduction with it. I can ramp at 1C/min. If you want to ramp faster, I'd guess I'd have to ask why?

When I first built my HLT/HERMS, I didn't have any agitation and I was finding significant laminar differences in temperatures throughout the HLT. The stirrer was a good addition to ensure the temperature at the sensor is actaully a true reflection of the temperature throughout the HLT.

My system is also a little different in that I use two solenoid valves to avoid temperature overshoot. The sensor for these is at the output of the HERMS coil. To me this is plain common sense. I'm not interested if the mash temp is 68C, I'm interested as to whether the wort I'm heating is at 68C. The mash will inevitably lag due to it's thermal mass and catch up at some point minus the system losses, which in my case is around 1C. I did have some issues with small pieces of grain kernels getting lodged in my vavlves, but a piece of termimesh under the FB has eliminated this.

My biggest issue is not having the HERMS as a seperate vessel if I want to do double batches. Because of the water needed to do a double batch, I have to completely drain the HLT to sparge. This means I cannot recirculate until I have filled the HLT with water and raise it to a suitable temp to do so, or fill it again with already pre-heated water. It's a bit of a catch 22. If I had my time again, I probably would have still placed my HERMS coil in the HLT, just made the HLT a bigger capacity.


----------



## gregs

schooey said:


> I've read this thread for a while, and kinda tossed up whether to post or not, but decided to in the end. Obviously these are only my opinions, but I have tried them over the last two years and I can only give you my experiences and what I have learnt in that time.
> 
> This is my system;
> 
> View attachment 35689
> View attachment 35690
> 
> 
> View attachment 35691
> View attachment 35692
> 
> 
> As you can see, my HERMS coil is in my HLT. Why did I do this you might ask... well at the time it made sense as I was trying to keep things as simple as I could to achieve what I wanted. I was also trying to keep my pump circuit as compact as possible.
> 
> I use a stainless coil. I have no issue with heat transfer/conduction with it. I can ramp at 1C/min. If you want to ramp faster, I'd guess I'd have to ask why?
> 
> When I first built my HLT/HERMS, I didn't have any agitation and I was finding significant laminar differences in temperatures throughout the HLT. The stirrer was a good addition to ensure the temperature at the sensor is actaully a true reflection of the temperature throughout the HLT.
> 
> My system is also a little different in that I use two solenoid valves to avoid temperature overshoot. The sensor for these is at the output of the HERMS coil. To me this is plain common sense. I'm not interested if the mash temp is 68C, I'm interested as to whether the wort I'm heating is at 68C. The mash will inevitably lag due to it's thermal mass and catch up at some point minus the system losses, which in my case is around 1C. I did have some issues with small pieces of grain kernels getting lodged in my vavlves, but a piece of termimesh under the FB has eliminated this.
> 
> My biggest issue is not having the HERMS as a seperate vessel if I want to do double batches. Because of the water needed to do a double batch, I have to completely drain the HLT to sparge. This means I cannot recirculate until I have filled the HLT with water and raise it to a suitable temp to do so, or fill it again with already pre-heated water. It's a bit of a catch 22. If I had my time again, I probably would have still placed my HERMS coil in the HLT, just made the HLT a bigger capacity.



Great looking system Schooey, can I ask what is the function of the solenoids. In regards to your temperature control? 

Cheers.


----------



## roller997

newguy said:


> You've touched on all the things that you have to somehow balance in a HERMS. However, I'd recommend NOT going the pressure-cooker-esque route you mentioned. When doing ramps you don't want to flash boil or otherwise drastically heat the wort as you're denaturing (killing) enzymes that way.
> 
> I'd personally recommend going for the biggest ID copper coil you can afford - about 8m. If price was no option go for 12mm (ish) ID copper tubing. Reasons being heat conductivity and flow rate. Your PID controller can handle things if your wort outlet temperature is high, or simply chop a temperature ramp into smaller steps so that temperature overshoot while ramping isn't that big of a deal. Bending the copper into a nice coil is a bit of a pain but all you really need is a good form to wrap it around. Select a pot to house the coil first, then find something to use as a form afterward. If the tubing tends to kink, fill it with sand first (seal both ends to keep the sand in), then try wrapping it. It won't kink with sand in it.



Newguy,
Thanks for that feedback. In terms of your original comment of NOT going down the pressure cooker esque route. 
Are you suggesting not to pre-heat the wort as it makes it "final exit" to the kettle or are you talking about not aiming to pressurize the vessle which could create up to 120 degree temperatures? 
I am assuming that if I don't have a sealed pressurized vessel, the maximum boiling temperature I will get will be just over 100 degrees and by the time it gets to the kettle, it will be close to that again. A rolling boil should get to about the same temperatures I would have thought so the denaturing of the enzymes would be about the same? One option might be to limit the temperature to 99 degrees and as I am quite worried about the scorching aspect of the system, I would be happy to introduce a further control to ensure it doesn't get any higher than 99 degrees.

By the sound of it, you are convinced that copper is the go from a heat conductivity perspective. Looking at most setups, there are a lot more copper based HE coils than Stainless, hence I just ended up buying 12mm (ID) * 18meter copper coil so I will try that. 

Thanks also for your advice in relation to bending copper. I will follow that and fill the pipe with sand before "shaping" it for my setup. I did think about the nature of stainless and getting it bent in a nice coil shap bieng not be all that straight forward (or cheap for that matter). 

Does anyone have views in relation to maximum amount of fermentable wort when using 1/2" plumbing? 


Thanks

Roller


----------



## roller997

schooey said:


> I've read this thread for a while, and kinda tossed up whether to post or not, but decided to in the end. Obviously these are only my opinions, but I have tried them over the last two years and I can only give you my experiences and what I have learnt in that time.
> 
> This is my system;
> 
> View attachment 35689
> View attachment 35690
> 
> 
> View attachment 35691
> View attachment 35692
> 
> 
> As you can see, my HERMS coil is in my HLT. Why did I do this you might ask... well at the time it made sense as I was trying to keep things as simple as I could to achieve what I wanted. I was also trying to keep my pump circuit as compact as possible.
> 
> I use a stainless coil. I have no issue with heat transfer/conduction with it. I can ramp at 1C/min. If you want to ramp faster, I'd guess I'd have to ask why?
> 
> When I first built my HLT/HERMS, I didn't have any agitation and I was finding significant laminar differences in temperatures throughout the HLT. The stirrer was a good addition to ensure the temperature at the sensor is actaully a true reflection of the temperature throughout the HLT.
> 
> My system is also a little different in that I use two solenoid valves to avoid temperature overshoot. The sensor for these is at the output of the HERMS coil. To me this is plain common sense. I'm not interested if the mash temp is 68C, I'm interested as to whether the wort I'm heating is at 68C. The mash will inevitably lag due to it's thermal mass and catch up at some point minus the system losses, which in my case is around 1C. I did have some issues with small pieces of grain kernels getting lodged in my vavlves, but a piece of termimesh under the FB has eliminated this.
> 
> My biggest issue is not having the HERMS as a seperate vessel if I want to do double batches. Because of the water needed to do a double batch, I have to completely drain the HLT to sparge. This means I cannot recirculate until I have filled the HLT with water and raise it to a suitable temp to do so, or fill it again with already pre-heated water. It's a bit of a catch 22. If I had my time again, I probably would have still placed my HERMS coil in the HLT, just made the HLT a bigger capacity.



That is a very nice looking rig. I have thought about using the HLT as a HE, however if my (possibly silly) idea of passing the wort through the HE during the final stage, it would heat the sparge water too much and I would require a very fast ramp up time.

Do you do any measurements of the HE liqour temperature in comparison to the temperature of the wort that exits the stainless coil? It might provide me with some more information (although as per the previous post, I have started leaning heavily towards copper at this stage).


----------



## schooey

gregs said:


> can I ask what is the function of the solenoids'. In regards to your temperature control?



My system is controlled by two PID's. The first PID measures and controls the temperature of the water in the HLT. The probe is positioned at the vertically in the centre of the HERMS coil. 

The second PID measures the temp of the wort at the exit of the HERMS coil, and controls a changeover relay that drives the two solenoid valves. Once the PID measures the temp within the desired range, it switches the changeover relay and the wort recirculates through the mash, without going through the herms coil. If the temp drops below the dsired range, the relay switches back and the solenoids change and the wort is diverted through the HERMS coil in the HLT.

When I brew, I measure the desired amount of strike volume into my mash tun, fill the HLT and set the PID's. When the water is exiting the coil at around 30-50C (depending on what I'm brewing), I mash in and continue to let the PID's ramp up to the desired mash temp.




Roller997 said:


> That is a very nice looking rig. I have thought about using the HLT as a HE, however if my (possibly silly) idea of passing the wort through the HE during the final stage, it would heat the sparge water too much and I would require a very fast ramp up time.
> 
> Do you do any measurements of the HE liqour temperature in comparison to the temperature of the wort that exits the stainless coil? It might provide me with some more information (although as per the previous post, I have started leaning heavily towards copper at this stage).



To answer your question, Roller, the delta between the HLT temp and my desired wort temp is usually only around 2.5-3.5C (It depends on the ambient and heat losses) If I'm mashing out at 75-76, and I want to sparge at 78, it's perfect. If I want cooler sparges and no mash out, I can easily turn the solenoids manually to just recirculate without passing through the HERMS coil, and adjust the temp in the HLT with a little cold water. With the insulation on the MT, I don't lose any temp in the mash.

Hope that answers your questions.

Cheers,

schooey


----------



## mxd

hi guys,

if I am playing to run water from kettle to HLT and MLT and wort from MLT to MLT (through HERMS) and kettle I would think I would need 2 pumps ? 

Or if I don't need to move water once the wort recirculating has began I guess I could use 1.

My current thought had me moving water from kettle to HLT almost at mash out as I was not going to have a heater in the HLT. So many thing to think about, is there any one who has not got a heated HLT who may have some thoughts ?

thanks
Matt


----------



## newguy

Roller997 said:


> Thanks for that feedback.



My pleasure.



> In terms of your original comment of NOT going down the pressure cooker esque route.
> Are you suggesting not to pre-heat the wort as it makes it "final exit" to the kettle or are you talking about not aiming to pressurize the vessle which could create up to 120 degree temperatures?



Not pressurizing it. Water at > 100C is very very dangerous and somehow making the chamber completely "tight" from a pressure standpoint would make even an experienced pressure vessel welder nervous.

Be safe and accept the little bit of extra time it will take to bring your wort to a boil. You'll live longer.


----------



## roller997

newguy said:


> Not pressurizing it. Water at > 100C is very very dangerous and somehow making the chamber completely "tight" from a pressure standpoint would make even an experienced pressure vessel welder nervous.
> 
> Be safe and accept the little bit of extra time it will take to bring your wort to a boil. You'll live longer.



Point taken and I would agree that safety definately comes first in these sorts of ventures. From the sounds of it even if I pass the wort through the HE and assuming the element is powerful enough, the wort will be close to 100 degrees on its way to the kettle so the wait won't be too long, the elements won't have to work too long before the boil starts.


----------



## KHB

This is my new Herms Vessel. It holds 8lt water with 6metre of copper. It has got a 2.4KW element in it. I just tested it out and it raised the temp 1.c/per 50 sec. Should go alot better than my last one!!













Cheers
KHB


----------



## sav

Painted my control box at work yesterday 2pack red pearl looks the goods just need to wire in.


----------



## sav

sav said:


> Painted my control box at work yesterday 2pack red pearl looks the goods just need to wire in.


----------



## antains

Now that's love!


----------



## The Mexican

Hi Chappo,

I placed a post today related to HERMS that I thought may help some of your punters, but it ended up in the AG section, sorry, I'll get it right next time...... Once I have my system up & running I will put together a full report on construction & opreation.
Regards.... Doug ( The Mexican )


----------



## mxd

Hi Guys,

with a HERMS do you run the pump the whole time or only when you want to raise the temp ?

I was thinking with a separate HE I would run the pump the whole time (would the help with efficiency ?) 

Or do you just run the pump when you want to raise the temp ?

I assume people do both ways (if you have the HLT and HE in one, I would assume you just run the pump when heating), but is there any pro's/con's for each one ?

My feeling is it would be easier to run the pump when you want to raise the temp, that way you could have the HE temp at mash out temp, then control the pump off a tempmate from the mash temperature ?

Still collecting things and still doing BIAB, my MLT is more like a sieve, I need to find a place to buy silicon washers.

cheers
Matt


----------



## chappo1970

mxd said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> with a HERMS do you run the pump the whole time or only when you want to raise the temp ?
> 
> I was thinking with a separate HE I would run the pump the whole time (would the help with efficiency ?)
> 
> Or do you just run the pump when you want to raise the temp ?
> 
> I assume people do both ways (if you have the HLT and HE in one, I would assume you just run the pump when heating), but is there any pro's/con's for each one ?
> 
> My feeling is it would be easier to run the pump when you want to raise the temp, that way you could have the HE temp at mash out temp, then control the pump off a tempmate from the mash temperature ?
> 
> Still collecting things and still doing BIAB, my MLT is more like a sieve, I need to find a place to buy silicon washers.
> 
> cheers
> Matt




I recirc the whole time MXD don't see the point otherwise. HERMS is about temp control up down left right and sideways it's all up the the brewer.  I'll should post a few picts of the new HERMS so upset the establishment


----------



## mxd

Ok, so I have just bought same more stuff, 

A to be keggle (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130378186334&ssPageName=ADME:L:COSI:AU:1123) and a to be HE (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290419742262&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT).

I think the keggle is 18 Gallons (80 ltr ?), so just need to get a "bung" and start chopping and drilling to insert the heating elements.

Then for the HE I will now need to figure out how to make a coil of copper to insert in the urn. I will use my 50 ltr urn as a HLT (assume the Keggle is 80 ltrs). I just have to stop my MLT from leaking, it's such a PITA.


----------



## jakub76

I'm starting to explore a HERMS design with the HE inside the HLT. Has anyone successfully used this same coil to then cool the wort after boiling? I'm thinking the theory is sound. Once you've done your sparge and spent any leftover hot water cleaning the lines and the MLT, refill the HLT with tap water and ice then pipe your wort back through that coil to cool it. 
Maybe even place the kettle inlet at an angle to get a whirlpool going during cooling.
AND has anyone been able to find a single tier solution with only one pump, I keep shuffling my design but it's always 2 pumps, one for wort other for water.
Here's some eye candy I've been drooling over. http://www.wortomatic.com/articles/Baltobr...-Electric-Stand


----------



## jfinney

nifty said:


> I use a 7 litre el cheapo pot with about 8 metres of 1/2 inch copper coiled inside.
> 
> nifty


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

Chappo said:


> I'll should post a few picts of the new HERMS so upset the establishment




So ???


----------



## jfinney

Chappo said:


> Thanks FNQ and yes it is time you did step up! :lol:
> 
> @Newguy that would be great if you could post your system. Maybe the older hands at HERMS post up their systems and modifications to kick off the thread? I'll PM you Newguy when it gets a start.
> 
> @Bulp to right mate. It's like we are the unmentionables.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mods please delete this post!
> 
> Kidding!
> 
> Glabb welcome aboard! IMO *only* 19lt is too big because of the volume of water the HE has to deal with including the HE from the wort so it would be better for a smaller 9-11lt pots. I have seen at BigW. But lets leave that for the thread. PM if you wish.



*

* Hi there Chappo and all the HERMS brewers on this forum,*
*
Firstly, thank you to you all for your information, you have helped me immensely! This is the first time I have commented, but I thoroughly enjoyed reading through everyones valuable information. (Sorry, but I am very new to forums, and forgive me if my computer literacy is really bad!)

I have decided to bite the bullet and build a HERMS brew system with separate heat exchanger. I have heard some people mention 7.9 litre pots, and some mentioned 10-11litre pots. I am trying to decide what size and type of HE to build, ie what volume and what type of vessel esky cooler or stainless pot??? If I use a smaller HE such as the Coleman 7.6 litre cooler, (picture attached hopefully!!) will that give me faster temp control given it is a smaller insulated unit? I was thinking of running the coil from the lid, and 240v kettle element through the bottom, and temp-mate controlling outflow temp back to MLT. Could someone please advise?

Thanks again for this great source of info guys! 



I am a ver keen brewer, and I have decided to build a HERMS system with sepperate heat exchanger. 

*

*


----------



## tgarland

Top setup!

Does anyone out there have any experience with direct fired HERMS, ie, a solenoid controlled burner directly under the mash tun?

I am taking a lesson from Lonnie's book at http://alenuts.com

I would have to aggree with him that with circulatign wort, and a full false bottom that caramalising (burning) the grain would not be an issue, and is also less complex than an external coil, plus less to clean, plus less wastage.

Very new to this so simply putting it out there for guidance.

Cheers,
Tony


----------



## raven19

Have sent Puffer a PM on AMB, his unit here is pretty sweet and is direct fired.

You may not be able to see if not a 'local' member though.

AMB Thread


----------



## puffer555

Thanks for the plug raven19.

Yeah mine is direct fired, but I've extended the principle to BIAB too. 
I have posted pictures on AHB too, here it is.
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...t=0&start=0
I'm not sure its really considered a HERMS though, so the mods here may consider this off topic.

Its a good simple system. not many extra parts needed from what I needed for BIAB.
Just a solenoid, pilot, and tempmate.
Well I suppose you need a pump too, but this is also for transfer of wort, chilling, better efficiency etc.
Anyway, I like the system, and would recommend it.
Besides, If you see the number of Brutus 10's that have popped up around the world, it is obviously a popular method.


----------



## jfinney

Can someone please advise what is the best size heat excanger to use, 7 litre or 10 litre?


----------



## razz

Which ever size best suits your copper coil jfinney, that is if you're using a copper coil?


----------



## jfinney

razz said:


> Which ever size best suits your copper coil jfinney, that is if you're using a copper coil?



Razz, I was thinking if I find the most efficient size heat exchanger, then I can make the coil to fit the exchanger, not the other way around. I know that more water volume in exchanger means slower heat time given the 240v element I plan to use. I knwo someone mentioned they use a 7 litre and get a temp rise of 2C per min, but a larger water volume, say 10 litre may present more even steady temp management. 

I know there are so many ways to do this, but I guess I am trying to get it right from the start through other peoples experiences and results.


----------



## raven19

jfinney said:


> ...use a 7 litre and get a temp rise of 2C per min, but a larger water volume, say 10 litre may present more even steady temp management.



That will depend on the size of your typical batch also - just to throw another spanner in the works! <_<


----------



## jfinney

raven19 said:


> That will depend on the size of your typical batch also - just to throw another spanner in the works! <_<



Spanner indeed, raven19! I was planning on single and double batches, ie 19 litre or 39 litre, I guess it will take longer, possibly double the time to raise temps for the double batch?


----------



## roller997

jfinney said:


> Spanner indeed, raven19! I was planning on single and double batches, ie 19 litre or 39 litre, I guess it will take longer, possibly double the time to raise temps for the double batch?



I might be wrong, however unless you increase the volume of the wort flowing through the copper tube in the HE, your ramping of temperatures is likely to be going at the same.
I would expect it to take longer (assuming the same volume of wort going through the copper coil) to change the temperature of the mash I would.


----------



## raven19

Your ramp temperature rate will be dependant on the volume of liquid in the mash. As the HERMS needs to heat all the liquid to achieve a step up in temp - hence for a double batch size, I would wager its also roughly double the ramp time.


----------



## roller997

raven19 said:


> Your ramp temperature rate will be dependant on the volume of liquid in the mash. As the HERMS needs to heat all the liquid to achieve a step up in temp - hence for a double batch size, I would wager its also roughly double the ramp time.



I suppose it all depends on where you measure your ramp temperature and how youdefine the ramp rate... 
I was looking at the temperature change at the HE output (which I know is not as important as the mash bed temperature changing quickly). 
The reason I focussed on that is that many posters talk about a 1-2 degree per minute ramping speed. With such quick changes in ramping temperatures it is unlikely that the whole mash liquor has cycled through the HE and the mash bed would be lagging. 
If the diameter of the coil, the pump and the speed at which you can draw liquor from it are limiting, as the ramp temperature on the HE output might rise as quickly as it does for a smaller batch, however the mash bed takes longer to change its temperature.

So if you are talking about the mash bed then you are spot on and I won't take your bet.

Cheers 

Roller


----------



## Pollux

Okay, time for me to fire up some questions for those in the know as I'm looking at an upgrade to a double batch HERMS in May.

1. Using a 10L urn as a HX? I've spotted a heap of these going moderately cheaply on eBay (i.e. cheaper than a standalone element). My theory was to remove the factory tap, replace with a bulkhead attach the bottom end of the coil and then plumb it to the rest of the system on the outside of the kettle.

2. I currently have a 40L crown urn, a 50L keggle mashtun and am looking at probably a 100L Al pot and spiral burner, I'd love to be pumping out two full kegs per brew session, which I know means 50L post boil (including cooling loss, kettle trub and all other losses between kettle and keg), possible with my current MLT and HLT?

3. I spotted Tony's idea of a reverse recirc mash, sounds like a great idea and something that if plumbed in from the start would be easy to setup, only issue is the the collection point at the top and the filtration of the wort it draws in, I was thinking of making a circular manifold (I currently have one in the base of the MLT), perhaps covering it with a braid....Would this be enough? Potential issues with anything that may get into the pump? I theory was to run it base to top for the bulk of the mash and then reverse it, meaning the now coming from the top would have to pass back through the braid, this is one spot I think could have a potential issue as it may clog, opinions???


----------



## cdbrown

So I picked up 2 6m coiled lengths of 12.7mm OD annealed copper on the weekend. Will get a joiner and a few other fittings. Where people have gone through the wall of the pot have you used some sort of bulkead fitting and then a compression fitting on the copper tube which screws onto the bulkhead fitting?

I see that most people use 10L pots or there abouts. I have 19L pot which I've been using for brewing and had hoped to use that. Took a look in Big W on the weekend and they either had 7.6L or 19L cheap pots. Would 7.6L pot be better than using the 19L pot? Or should I look around for a 10-12L pot.

One crazy idea is has anyone tried to coil it so there's actually an inner and outer coil. Hard to describe, but find a tube to coil it around which is fairly small, go around once, then instead of continuing up the tube making further coils, bend the tube so it sits on the existing tube and bend around that, when you get back to the start bend it back down onto the tube and repeat. Or bend all the coils going along the tube, then bend bigger coils around the existing coils? Does any of that make sense? Of course it would be limited to the smallest bend radius of the tube with the outer coils having a slightly bigger radius.


----------



## gava

> Has a 2200W electrical jug element scavanged from a a cheapy Aldi kettle. There is a bit of work in modifying the housing of the element. I took some photos of what need to be done but they are at home.
> 
> 
> Chap Chap



I'd be interested in seeing the photos of this and what kettle you used. thinking of adding a HERMS addition to my rig


----------



## hockadays

cdbrown said:


> So I picked up 2 6m coiled lengths of 12.7mm OD annealed copper on the weekend. Will get a joiner and a few other fittings. Where people have gone through the wall of the pot have you used some sort of bulkead fitting and then a compression fitting on the copper tube which screws onto the bulkhead fitting?
> 
> I see that most people use 10L pots or there abouts. I have 19L pot which I've been using for brewing and had hoped to use that. Took a look in Big W on the weekend and they either had 7.6L or 19L cheap pots. Would 7.6L pot be better than using the 19L pot? Or should I look around for a 10-12L pot.
> 
> One crazy idea is has anyone tried to coil it so there's actually an inner and outer coil. Hard to describe, but find a tube to coil it around which is fairly small, go around once, then instead of continuing up the tube making further coils, bend the tube so it sits on the existing tube and bend around that, when you get back to the start bend it back down onto the tube and repeat. Or bend all the coils going along the tube, then bend bigger coils around the existing coils? Does any of that make sense? Of course it would be limited to the smallest bend radius of the tube with the outer coils having a slightly bigger radius.



I picked up a grain and grape 2200w element that screwed together to form a simple weldless fitting on a 15L pot from BigW. The size of the HX does matter and what I did was just fill it to about 9L and put a piece of foam ontop essentially bringing the pot volume down to 9L which works well for my system.


----------



## chappo1970

cdbrown said:


> So I picked up 2 6m coiled lengths of 12.7mm OD annealed copper on the weekend. Will get a joiner and a few other fittings. Where people have gone through the wall of the pot have you used some sort of bulkead fitting and then a compression fitting on the copper tube which screws onto the bulkhead fitting?
> 
> I see that most people use 10L pots or there abouts. I have 19L pot which I've been using for brewing and had hoped to use that. Took a look in Big W on the weekend and they either had 7.6L or 19L cheap pots. Would 7.6L pot be better than using the 19L pot? Or should I look around for a 10-12L pot.
> 
> One crazy idea is has anyone tried to coil it so there's actually an inner and outer coil. Hard to describe, but find a tube to coil it around which is fairly small, go around once, then instead of continuing up the tube making further coils, bend the tube so it sits on the existing tube and bend around that, when you get back to the start bend it back down onto the tube and repeat. Or bend all the coils going along the tube, then bend bigger coils around the existing coils? Does any of that make sense? Of course it would be limited to the smallest bend radius of the tube with the outer coils having a slightly bigger radius.




Sorry Brownie. Been a busy boy. I promise to answer your emails tomorrow.

First things first a double coil is an excellent idea and very do-able. I would do exactly as you have described in fact I have done on few of my nutty experiments. What you do want to do is create a little void or space between the coils as well to allow the water in the HERMS to freely flow around the coils and exchange that precious heat. Start with coiling around a smaller diameter tube then insert another larger tube over the coil you just formed and form that coil. I wish I was more diligent with taking photo's when I did this kind of stuff. Anyway I am sure you get the idea.

My preferrence is to weld fit thru the wall of the pot. Drill a 12.7mm hole thru the wall and tig weld the joint. It will last a lifetime and nowhere for nasties to hide. I am not a fan of compression fittings and copper in the system for that matter. Yes I know copper is good for yeast health yadda yadda but I am just not convinced of how good it is for the consumer of the beer. Compression fittings have too many nooks and crannies for nasties to hide plus the plastic olives I am not completely convinced they are food grade and heat resistant.

Hmmm pot size is always a point for arguement. My preferrence is for the smallest vessel you get your hands on. Two reasons for this is 
1. Less volume of water to heat and therefore quicker heat exchange to the wort passing thru your coil. Conversely if you get a stuck sparge and do overheat your wort. Once the blockage is fixed it takes alot less time to equalize your HERMS vessel.
2. Smaller vessels takes up less space in the brewery.

My current HERMS vessel is a mere 2.7lts with 6M of coil.  

Brownie in the end it comes down to what you want and what you are willing to compromise. A good Stainless fabricator would have you sorted out in less than an hour.

Again sorry for not originally getting back to you sooner. I'll try to be a little more diligent. :icon_cheers:


----------



## chappo1970

This diagram might help or inspire those planning a 3V HERMS system. Be warned it's not the be all and end all as far as system design. It also incorporates a dual head pump for a 1 Tier system. 

View attachment img_601085425_0001.pdf


----------



## raven19

Chappo said:


> This diagram might help or inspire those planning a 3V HERMS system. Be warned it's not the be all and end all as far as system design. It also incorporates a dual head pump for a 1 Tier system.



I think our boy is back!!!!!! :icon_cheers: 

Seeing the penmanship, you might need an engineer to help with those sketches Chap Chap! :lol:


----------



## chappo1970

raven19 said:


> Seeing the penmanship, you might need an engineer to help with those sketches Chap Chap! :lol:



Geeze give a bloke a break I only pasted crayons 101 last week FFS :unsure:


----------



## cdbrown

Cheers for the email Chappo. All makes sense now.

I'll get a 7.6L pot from Big W next time I'm there. Will also try the dual coil using the annealed tubing I have. It comes pre coiled so I'll check the diameter of the smallest coil in relation to the pot size, hopefully won't have to go any tighter than that. Also picked up a torch, solder (which I need to take back as I think it contains lead) and fittings so will be soldering the copper pipe.

So aren't you happy with your bulkhead fittings on your HERMS chap chap? Bit confused regarding


> "My preferrence is to weld fit thru the wall of the pot. Drill a 12.7mm hole thru the wall and tig weld the joint."


 are you suggesting to TIG weld the copper pipe to the pot?

Thanks again and great to have you back mate


----------



## chappo1970

cdbrown said:


> Cheers for the email Chappo. All makes sense now.
> 
> I'll get a 7.6L pot from Big W next time I'm there. Will also try the dual coil using the annealed tubing I have. It comes pre coiled so I'll check the diameter of the smallest coil in relation to the pot size, hopefully won't have to go any tighter than that. Also picked up a torch, solder (which I need to take back as I think it contains lead) and fittings so will be soldering the copper pipe.
> 
> So aren't you happy with your bulkhead fittings on your HERMS chap chap? Bit confused regarding are you suggesting to TIG weld the copper pipe to the pot?
> 
> Thanks again and great to have you back mate



My bad CDB. I thought it was SS coil not copper. Geezus I am having a day of whoopsies today. Go the way are going mate.

No I'm not a big fan of weldless bulkheads but it's more a personal thing rather than a practical thing.


----------



## roller997

Chappo said:


> My bad CDB. I thought it was SS coil not copper. Geezus I am having a day of whoopsies today. Go the way are going mate.
> 
> No I'm not a big fan of weldless bulkheads but it's more a personal thing rather than a practical thing.




Chappo,
Are there any potential concerns when running one end of the March pump dry while you are adding water from the HLT? 
I talked to someone from Process Pumps over the weekend who mentioned a couple of times that you should not run the 809 dry as it reduces its lifespan. I would assume that in the design of the twin head pump they would have assumed that you won't always have liquid in both ends but then I didn't specifically ask about the dual head pump.

Cheers

Roller


----------



## cdbrown

Unfortunately Chappo's design is not a working solution if using the dual head march pump. Both March Manufacturing and Process Pumps have said that the pump is not food grade especially at wort temps. See this post http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&p=638109 and onwards

Running the pump dry for a minute can cause it all to seize. They are basically designed to operate non stop.


----------



## chappo1970

cdbrown said:


> Unfortunately Chappo's design is not a working solution if using the dual head march pump. Both March Manufacturing and Process Pumps have said that the pump is not food grade especially at wort temps. See this post http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&p=638109 and onwards
> 
> Running the pump dry for a minute can cause it all to seize. They are basically designed to operate non stop.




+1 Edzacary Correcto-Mondo

Roller: The pumps are fine as long as they have fluid in the pump head. You can have them shut off via a ball valve but you cannot run them dry *ever*. The fluid is used as lubricant.

cheers 

Chap Chap


----------



## fcmcg

Here is my new heat exchanger....
Its been like 12 months in the build....very slack i know...
Found a guy today who made whe swagelock to bsp fitting for the thermocouple 100 thingy from scratch...for nothing...on the proviso of some beers...
What do people think...should i bring the copper pipe thru the wall of the pot ?


----------



## cdbrown

It would definitely look neater going through the wall. What are those white fittings?


----------



## Screwtop

fergthebrewer said:


> Here is my new heat exchanger....
> Its been like 12 months in the build....very slack i know...
> Found a guy today who made whe swagelock to bsp fitting for the thermocouple 100 thingy from scratch...for nothing...on the proviso of some beers...
> What do people think...should i bring the copper pipe thru the wall of the pot ?
> View attachment 38447






Ferg, have you thought about the effectiveness of mounting the probe in a backwater, so to speak. This is how I mounted mine, so the wort flows around the probe. Have been thinking lately about rotating the fitting so that it's always covered with wort, should the return manifold block and stall flow (this has happened, causing thermal runaway). Food for thought!

Cheers,

Screwy


----------



## raven19

+1 on Screwy's comment. Ideally try and run the wort around the probe rather than just past the end.

My intended (albeit RIMS) outflow with PT100 temp probe.


----------



## fcmcg

Those white things are CPC quick disconnects.....
Thanks Screwy...yes may modify the set up to make it a bit more pretty and put the probe in a back water , so to speak...
Was also thinking of maybe may the return at the bottom of the pot so thatthere is some gravity feed...
Thanks for the feed back guys...
Cheers
Ferg


----------



## schooey

Maybe a little OTT on the home brewing scale... BUT.. Best practice is to mount a temp probe in the turbulent flow of the medium, not in a dead head area. The turbulent stream will give you the most consistent and accurate temperature reading of the medium_ at the point which you are measuring_. In a dead head, some liquid will be trapped, and will not reflect the same temperature as that of the turbulent flow.


----------



## raven19

I concur Schooey, the probes in my unit are 100mm long, hence project into the turbulent zone no problems.


----------



## Screwtop

raven19 said:


> I concur Schooey, the probes in my unit are 100mm long, hence project into the turbulent zone no problems.




+1

Like this:




Screwy


----------



## bonj

You're a true artist, Screwy!


----------



## raven19

Bonj said:


> You're a true artist, Screwy!



Worthy of Websters! :icon_cheers:


----------



## beerbrewer76543

Here is my latest sketch of my planned HERMS

The plumbing is set up so I have a row of valves that I can easily label to make mishaps with valve events less likely, I know this will increase the deadspace in the system but with the HERMS recirculating the temps shouldn't be affected much. The wobbly lines are silicon and the straight lines are copper tube. The "T" is the thermocouple probe. The HLT will have a 2kW element as will the heat exchanger. Both will have thermocouples of their own with a relay ensuring only one is on at a time, preference to the herms unit. 

Any comments?

Cheers


----------



## cdbrown

Is that gravity feed from HLT to MLT? Thought about underletting to the kettle - save on some copper and silicone?


----------



## beerbrewer76543

Yeah I'm going to gravity feed from the HLT to the MLT to avoid one pumping operation

I thought there may be another reason but can't remember... :unsure:


----------



## unrealeous

L_Bomb said:


> Yeah I'm going to gravity feed from the HLT to the MLT to avoid one pumping operation


This seems to be a preference amongst AHB members, but I would have thought a gravity feed between the MLT and the boiler would be better option, since draining the MLT can take a lot of time - and also you don't have to watch the final draining to make sure your pump doesn't run dry.


----------



## cdbrown

unreal - main reason is that you have to pump from the false bottom through the herms for recirc, so when recirc is done you might as well pump to the kettle from the falsey.


----------



## Screwtop

unrealeous said:


> This seems to be a preference amongst AHB members, but I would have thought a gravity feed between the MLT and the boiler would be better option, since draining the MLT can take a lot of time - and also you don't have to watch the final draining to make sure your pump doesn't run dry.




+1 again, sorry no artwork this time

Floatswitch in HLT to shut off AC to the Relay controlling the HLT element and the pump, no running dry!



Bonj said:


> You're a true artist, Screwy!




Put a lot of effort into that last one too, at least 2 minutes :lol: 

Some credit must go to Schooey for the original :lol:





cdbrown said:


> unreal - main reason is that you have to pump from the false bottom through the herms for recirc, so when recirc is done you might as well pump to the kettle from the falsey.




Why? Gravity from MLT to kettle, while pumping from HLT to MLT via the HE for temp control for continuous sparge with pump output throttled back to match HLT outflow. HE Coil is all flushed and cleaned at the end of sparge too, bonus! One pump, simple and easy, great efficiency, browse AHB while brewing.

Screwy


----------



## gava

Do people also use the HE to pump from the MLT to the kettle to bring it up in temp so the boil will start quicker? if so would you have to pump some water and the end to get the rest of the wort out of the HE? or do you just account for that loss?


----------



## cdbrown

I'm not planning on pumping through the HE to the kettle, once the wort hits the kettle I'll be starting up the burner. The loses due to liquid in the HE could be around 0.5L in the HE regardless if you pump to the kettle or just in mash recirc.


----------



## cdbrown

Quick question - I found an old kettle in one of the moving boxes. It's one of those that sits on a base with the electrical connection to the kettle a raised cylinder in the middle like this



. Is this the type of kettle easy to butcher for the HE or are the ones that have the power plug directly into the kettle the best?

Cheers
-cdbrown


----------



## NickB

Depends on how these are wired up, but I would imagine the element would be the same, but that's just a guess. Only one way to find out! 

I went with the cheapy BigW Kettles @ $7.98 for mine, and grabbed a couple, because you seriously can't buy an element for that price!

Cheers


----------



## jakub76

I'm considering a design that incorporates the heat exchange in the HLT as opposed to an external unit. I also figured I could prepare some ice and use this HLT heat exchange to cool also. 

Does anyone have any experience with a similar system?


----------



## cdbrown

jakub - there's quite a few people that do this. Take a look through all the examples in the thread.

I prefer having it seperate just because from all accounts it's quicker to ramp up the mash temp in a smaller vessel than a larger one, your sparge water can be ready at the right temp rather than trying to quickly heat it at the end of the mash.


----------



## cdbrown

Question regarding the installation of the element in the base of the pot - do I cut a 48mm hole which is the size of the plate and is the same hole size in the kettle? Is that how others have done it with the cheap big w kettle? 

And have people used a weldless fitting for the big element on the side of the keg or should I bite the bullet and weld a socket onto the keg wall? When using sockets do you cut a hole to match the internal diameter or external diameter of the socket?


----------



## NickB

Re: the kettle element - I use the exact same element in my HLT, and I just cut the hole the same size as the kettle. The silicone o-ring fits perfectly, and I get a watertight seal no problems at all. The three screws on the element itself will seal on both the inside and outside of the pot, assuming your wall thickness isn't too thick. If you can get the silicone o-ring sitting in the hole OK, you'll be fine.

Cheers


----------



## malbur

cdbrown said:


> Question regarding the installation of the element in the base of the pot - do I cut a 48mm hole which is the size of the plate and is the same hole size in the kettle? Is that how others have done it with the cheap big w kettle?




Yep same size as kettle, the only thing i had to do was make up a plastic washer because the BigW pot is thinner than the plastic kettle, no leaks all good.


Malbur.


----------



## leiothrix

For the kettle element I used the silicone washer supplied. Like Malbur my pot was too thin, so I cut up a bit of silicone baking dish and used that for a gasket.

For the other element I cut a hole in the pot for the element to fit in. I also cut a hole in an aluminium box to use as a terminal cover.

So mounting it went element -> ali box -> silicone gasket -> pot -> silicone gasket -> s/s washer -> s/s nut.

Also put a screw in the box towards the top to stop it from spinning. I mounted a 15A IEC socket on the box so it has a nice neat finish.


----------



## cdbrown

Cheers guys - what did you use to cut the holes? Hole saw, step drill?

leiothrix - do you have any pics of the ali cover. I understand how it's all set up, just interested to seeing it.


----------



## malbur

cdbrown said:


> Cheers guys - what did you use to cut the holes? Hole saw, step drill?



Hi cdbrown, i used a step drill.

malbur


----------



## leiothrix

I used a holesaw to cut the holes and a dremel to clean them up.


Pictures below. 

I've just got to cut up some insulation to fit on the outside of the pot.

Also, the element is controlled by both a PID & power controller, so I can control both mash temp and boil vigour.

Rob.


----------



## leiothrix

Just worth mentioning too that the exposed metal terminals are covered in (clear) high-temperature heatshrink. It's not that noticeable in the photo though.


----------



## unrealeous

leiothrix said:


> I used a holesaw to cut the holes and a dremel to clean them up.


I've been having a hell of a time putting holes into 50 ltr kegs - tried a hole saw from bunwah - the cheap version - couldn't even scratch the surface. Tried standard drill bits - wasting my time... In the end I'm using Chrome tipped 4 ml drill bits and drilling lots of holes using a slow drill with a lubricant - then finish off with a round file. Works a treat - but takes me about half an hour per hole plus a whole lot of mental preparation, and generally that's the end of my 5 buck drill bit....

The results are looking great though - about 2 more to do...


----------



## NickB

Get a good quality set of Bi-Metal hole saws, that's what I've used to cut all my holes. Trick is to drill as slowly as you can, and use some lubricant (I used WD40) on the metal. Cuts like butter.

Cheers


----------



## cdbrown

Any tips for which bit and speed to use when doing the clean up with a dremel. Searching dremel for s/s grinding it comes back with the 932 aluminium oxide bit which i have in my kit. Doesn't have an indication on best speeds. Will be using it on all the holes for clean up including the lid where the cutting isn't too good and needs a lot of remedial work.

Will look around for some bi-metal holesaws. Cheers.


----------



## roller997

cdbrown said:


> Any tips for which bit and speed to use when doing the clean up with a dremel. Searching dremel for s/s grinding it comes back with the 932 aluminium oxide bit which i have in my kit. Doesn't have an indication on best speeds. Will be using it on all the holes for clean up including the lid where the cutting isn't too good and needs a lot of remedial work.
> 
> Will look around for some bi-metal holesaws. Cheers.



I would use lower speeds, as per the drilling but then I use sand paper to clean up my holes.

Another good option for holesaws is cobalt coated holesaws as they seem to get through thicker stainless more easily. I bought a Bosch set and they are really good (but not cheap).
Also, if you use drill bits, spend the extra and buy a cobalt coated drill bit which will outlast the cheaper standard HSS drill bits and make drilling quite a lot easier (and faster).
Lubrication is key to cutting into stainless.

Cheers

Roller


----------



## bonj

standard instructions for cutting stainless are low speed, high pressure, and lots of lubricant.


----------



## leiothrix

For the dremel grinding bit i just used one of the standard grinding stones.

Just make sure it has never been used on anything else before (namely iron/steel). Otherwise it will embed the steel dust into the s/s and make it rust.

Rob.


----------



## Yorg

Here's mine. 5 litre urn, about 6 - 8 mtrs of copper - I can't remember.
Contribution to add:
The big white thing in the middle cuts the amount of water in the unit. Probably about 3.5 litres total now.
Faster ramp/response.


----------



## Bongchitis

Nice job!

Have you used it yet? How does it go?... and the new model too. Was it expensive?..... insert standard Q's here.

It is something i have been looking at lately but that is the first example that I have seen that makes me want to use an urn for my herms. Any info would be great.

Cheers mate.




Yorg said:


> Here's mine. 5 litre urn, about 6 - 8 mtrs of copper - I can't remember.
> Contribution to add:
> The big white thing in the middle cuts the amount of water in the unit. Probably about 3.5 litres total now.
> Faster ramp/response.


----------



## ~MikE

I'm gonna be building my new HE on the weekend hopefully and finish piecing togegher my first HERMS system once all the bits arrive. i might make a mini build log of this...


----------



## rude

Another good lubricant for drilling stainless is kero.


----------



## mxd

hi guys,

I was in the midst of making my coil for the HX (10 ltr urn), I was using 3mtr 1/2 rolls and just planned on joining them, I have 2 coiled now planned on 1 or 2 more, I was getting the rolls for $10 now there $30 for 3 mtrs. 

So my question I can get 18 mtrs of 1/4" or 5/8" for $40 and $60 so thought I would just get one of these and start again. What do people recommend

1) just use 6 mtrs in the urn
2) suck it up pay $10 a mtr
3) goto 1/4"
4) goto 5/8"

thanks
Matt


----------



## cdbrown

I can't understand the pricing of copper. The big green shed has 6m 1/2" coils for $10, yet 1.5m straight length is $16. Crazy. I'm going to tradelink today hopefully to see what they charge for a straight length


----------



## Pollux

Just doing a touch of research on fittings and came across this page

http://www.nrrbs.com.au/hosenetabrass.htm

Scroll down to the multi outlet taps. Ignoring the fact that the sizes won't match up to a march pump for a second (fittings can alter that) is there any reason that they couldn't be used in a HERMS setup? I see them as effectively being a row of ball valves sitting on a row of t-pieces.

Opinions?


----------



## TidalPete

Replaced my old fixed HE return with an adjustable one a few weeks ago. Was nothing wrong with the old one except it wasn't adjustable for various sized grain bills (Light beers\double batches, etc) & being an old shower head, was hard to clean properly inside. 
Still getting around 90%+ efficiency so it's worked out well. Took your advice Screwy & used a ss elbow with better results as you can see. :beer: 
Just a much cheaper version (Most of the bits were lying around the place) of a certain HE return sold down south so can't claim it to be my idea brewers.  

TP


----------



## NickB

Nice work Pete!

I'm hopefully going to be re-doing my Heat Exchanger sometime soon with a model that has more copper coil in it, and drains easier.

Will definitely be looking at something similar for my return as well...

Cheers


----------



## razz

Very nice TP, and a lot cheaper than the one i got from down south! Do you care to give us all a quick run down on how you fabricated it please?


----------



## TidalPete

razz said:


> Very nice TP, and a lot cheaper than the one i got from down south! Do you care to give us all a quick run down on how you fabricated it please?






razz,

Cut up an old ss saucepan keeping the pot handle threaded bit for the adjustable bracket to bolt on to. Bracket & adjustment bits are made from a length of 5\16" Whit ss threaded rod ($7). Bracket screws up & down the threaded rod & is locked in place by two ss wing nuts ($2). The pan has another short bit of threaded rod (With a ss flat washer silver soldered to it) bolted to it off-centre to keep the silicon tube in place. Bought a ss elbow (Around $7) to complete my list of purchases as I already had the lightweight silicon hose. Everything was silver soldered. Pic above was taken before I decided to use the elbow to take the hose around the side of the MT (To stop the hose from kinking) but should give you a better idea of the shape of the bracket. Sad to say I am unable to get the burn marks off the ss ATM & am open to suggestions. I think there is some kind of acid treatment that does the job but can't remember it??

TP


----------



## Cannibal Smurf

Quick question: the 1/2" copper pipe you are using for your HERMS coils, is it 1/2" ID or OD (12.7mm or 15.9mm)?


----------



## razz

1/2" OD.


----------



## gava

Cheers for this thread.. I thought I'd give it ago and make a HERMS upgrade to my brew rig.. here are some pictures of the end design.
I haven't tested it yet I'll do that today, my thinking is that the pot is pretty big and I dont have anything stiring the water.

I used a silicon baking mat from the reject shop to make my own seals for the connections.


----------



## fcmcg

So my HERMS build is entering its 9th month....
The control box is nearly finished ( then to get it wired)
Its made to look like a slab of beer...
I lined an empty slab box ( or carton to you non-victorians) with some 9mm mdf after i sealed the inside with waterproofing...
Its got a lockable door on the back of it , that you cant see in the photo....
The front is an aluminuim face plate to hold the bits and bobs...
The massive fark-off on/off switch in the front may or may not be used...i think it looks kinda cool though...
I plan on spraying the box with some clear 2 pac , so that it'll be water resistant...
Anyway...thought i'd show the world what i'm doing...
Cheers
Ferg


----------



## gava

gave my herms setup a go for the first time the other day... 

I had issues of the MASH temp not being constant and overshooting.. (reading via mashmaster thermo within the MLT and from my probe)

My probe to control the HERMS pot is on the Wort return (sparge arm) Where do everyone else have theses? on MLT out? or Wort return?

I read a couple of articals about forgetting about the MLT probe and control the HERMS pot itself and have it as a constant temp (with stiring of the HERMS pot water) does anyone do this?
if so how does it go?

to get mine to stay at "constant" temp I had to take half the water out of the HERMS pot and constantly fight the tempmate, putting the temp up and down.. very annoying.


----------



## yardy

jakub76 said:


> I'm starting to explore a HERMS design with the HE inside the HLT. Has anyone successfully used this same coil to then cool the wort after boiling? I'm thinking the theory is sound. Once you've done your sparge and spent any leftover hot water cleaning the lines and the MLT, refill the HLT with tap water and ice then pipe your wort back through that coil to cool it.
> Maybe even place the kettle inlet at an angle to get a whirlpool going during cooling.
> AND has anyone been able to find a single tier solution with only one pump, I keep shuffling my design but it's always 2 pumps, one for wort other for water.
> Here's some eye candy I've been drooling over. http://www.wortomatic.com/articles/Baltobr...-Electric-Stand






jakub76 said:


> I'm considering a design that incorporates the heat exchange in the HLT as opposed to an external unit. I also figured I could prepare some ice and use this HLT heat exchange to cool also.
> 
> Does anyone have any experience with a similar system?




I was considering the same idea jakub76, did you get anywhere with it ?

cheers

Dave


----------



## cdbrown

gava said:


> gave my herms setup a go for the first time the other day...
> 
> I had issues of the MASH temp not being constant and overshooting.. (reading via mashmaster thermo within the MLT and from my probe)
> 
> My probe to control the HERMS pot is on the Wort return (sparge arm) Where do everyone else have theses? on MLT out? or Wort return?
> 
> I read a couple of articals about forgetting about the MLT probe and control the HERMS pot itself and have it as a constant temp (with stiring of the HERMS pot water) does anyone do this?
> if so how does it go?
> 
> to get mine to stay at "constant" temp I had to take half the water out of the HERMS pot and constantly fight the tempmate, putting the temp up and down.. very annoying.



My HERMS element is controlled via the temp probe at the outlet of the HERMS. The MLT just has a temp guage on there so I can see what the mash temp is - MLT normally lags a few degrees behind the HERMS and the amount if difference is controlled by the pumping rates. 

I don't stir the water of the HERMS pot and not sure why you would as it's a fairly small volume of water. 

With the tempmate the element is either receiving full power in order to reach the set point and once it's reached it will cut the power until the temp falls below the temp diff from the set point. A PID will scale the power output to the element depending on how close it is to the set point.

Pumping rates are quite important, slow flow will quickly heat in the HERMS and you may find it comes out too hot as the tempmate isn't quick enough to switch the power off, it will also mean the mash temp won't change as fast as there's only a relatively small amount of wort being exchanged. Faster, less contact time in the coil and it might not get the chance to heat up enough (although this is unlikely) but does have the affect of heating the mash quicker. Fast flow can lead to compact bed and stuck mash so be vary wary of that. I try to do full flow, but make the grist ratio 3L or above if possible to reduce chance of stuck mash.

Try to move the probe back to the outlet from the HERMS so that any overshooting will be minimised by the time the wort is returned to the mash


----------



## cdbrown

I've got a brew planned for tonight - SNPA clone and just want to get some things clear. 

So I've got it in Beersmith to have 45L brew as I expect to get roughly 21.5L into each cube and 2L left behind in the keggle. Previously I had it to match the amount I wanted in the cubes but was told beersmith doesn't work that way. 

It's set so that I have a pre-boil vol of 40L, evap about 5L during a 60min boil and then top up with 10L at the end. So with 40L into the keggle I've tried to split that amount between 1st and 2nd runnings. 32L mash in (grain absorbs about 12L) and 22L for sparge. My HERMS piping holds roughly 2.5L so I always run water from HLT through the HERMS and into a bucket for a little bit until I'm confident it's filled with fresh hot water before putting it into the MLT for filling. Should I account for that 2.5L in the total mash water or is it just a loss that I keep in mind but not add to beersmith?

As I've said above, I pretty much try and have the HERMS circuit fully open during the mash especially during the temp ramp at mash out. Previously I didn't hit my mash temps so relied heavily on the HERMS to bring it up to temp, but hoping to hit the mash temps to start with and won't need to pump too fast. I do stir up the mash every 10 or 15mins just to ensure there's no compaction. After reading some low efficiency threads I now drain to keggle fairly slowly and will make sure I don't leave the mash paddle in there to create a channel for the wort. Once drained I'll add the sparge water and recirc for 10mins through HERMS before again draining slowly to the keggle.

How does the process and recipe look? I'm adjusting my mill set to increase the gap slightly as I notice a fair bit of flour and completely shredded husks rather than a nice cracked grain. Hope that will help with draining and stuck mash.

SNPA
Brew Type: All Grain Date: 25/11/2010 
Style: American Pale Ale Brewer: Craig Brown 
Batch Size: 45.00 L Assistant Brewer: 
Boil Volume: 40.08 L Boil Time: 60 min 
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 % Equipment: Browntown Double Batch 
Actual Efficiency: 11.84 % 
Taste Rating (50 possible points): 35.0

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU 
11.60 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 95.08 % 
0.60 kg Crystal, Medium (Bairds) (141.8 EBC) Grain 4.92 % 
30.00 gm Magnum [15.60 %] (60 min) Hops 29.4 IBU 
30.00 gm Pearle [6.00 %] (30 min) Hops 5.8 IBU 
50.00 gm Cascade [5.00 %] (10 min) Hops 3.1 IBU 
100.00 gm Cascade [5.00 %] (0 min) Hops - 
2 Pkgs Craftbrewer American Ale (DCL Yeast #US-05) Yeast-Ale 

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.055 SG (1.045-1.060 SG) Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG 
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.014 SG (1.010-1.015 SG) Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG 
Estimated Color: 15.5 EBC (9.9-27.6 EBC) Color [Color] 
Bitterness: 38.3 IBU (30.0-45.0 IBU) Alpha Acid Units: 22.9 AAU 
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 5.30 % (4.50-6.00 %) Actual Alcohol by Volume: 0.65 % 
Actual Calories: 90 cal/l 


Mash Profile Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Mash Tun Weight: 15.00 kg 
Mash Grain Weight: 12.20 kg Mash PH: 5.4 PH 
Grain Temperature: 22.2 C Sparge Temperature: 80.0 C 
Sparge Water: 22.48 L Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE 

Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Mash In Add 31.82 L of water at 74.4 C 67.8 C 60 min 
Mash Out Heat to 80.0 C over 15 min 80.0 C 10 min 


Mash Notes
Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).
Carbonation and Storage Carbonation Type: Kegged (Forced CO2) Carbonation Volumes: 2.4 (2.3-2.8 vols) 
Estimated Pressure: 74.4 KPA Kegging Temperature: 4.0 C 
Pressure Used: - Age for: 2.0 Weeks 
Storage Temperature: 4.0 C 


Notes
10min do at flame out.
0 min added to cube


----------



## yardy

cdbrown said:


> *My HERMS element is controlled via the temp probe at the outlet of the HERMS. The MLT just has a temp guage on there so I can see what the mash temp is - MLT normally lags a few degrees behind the HERMS and the amount if difference is controlled by the pumping rates.
> 
> *



gday cd, do you have any pics of your HEX and the where you mounted the temp probe ?

cheers

one for all the HERMits, is it considered better to have the HEX mounted as close to the MLT or will it not matter if there's a bit of a run between the two ?

Dave


----------



## Bongchitis

Hey yardy,

If you have the temp probe directly downstream of the HEX then you probably dont want too much of a run as your return temp to your MLT may be down by a few degrees depending on your insulation, pump speed etc. Generally, The longer the line, the more of a lag/discrepancy between HEX exit temp and final equilibrium temp in the mash. I am trying to design minimum transfer lengths into my HERMS rig.

Cheers mate.


Edit: I know mash temp is not what we are interested in per se but short runs and minimal thermal loss is part of a good process I reckon. 2c


----------



## yardy

Bongchitis said:


> *Hey yardy,
> 
> If you have the temp probe directly downstream of the HEX then you probably dont want too much of a run as your return temp to your MLT may be down by a few degrees depending on your insulation, pump speed etc. Generally, The longer the line, the more of a lag/discrepancy between HEX exit temp and final equilibrium temp in the mash. I am trying to design minimum transfer lengths into my HERMS rig.
> 
> Cheers mate.
> 
> 
> Edit: I know mash temp is not what we are interested in per se but short runs and minimal thermal loss is part of a good process I reckon. 2c*




G'day Bong,

I'll probably be looking at a 300mm run between MLT to HEX- HEX to MLT so 600 overall, maybe less if I can manage it, I'll be insulating everything where I can.

what temp control are you going with ?

cheers

Dave


----------



## asis

Thats nothing yardy.

I have about 300mm from mash to pump, 300mm from pump to HX and I'd say near a metre from Hx back to the tun. Only the return from the Hx is insulated. It could be shorter but I transfer to the kettle through the Hx so need the length.
All silicone hose.

:beer:


----------



## yardy

asis said:


> Thats nothing yardy.
> 
> I have about 300mm from mash to pump, 300mm from pump to HX and I'd say near a metre from Hx back to the tun. Only the return from the Hx is insulated. It could be shorter but I transfer to the kettle through the Hx so need the length.
> All silicone hose.
> 
> :beer:




OK mate  

do you have any specs on that ?

temp control, differential etc..

Dave


----------



## Bongchitis

yardy said:


> G'day Bong,
> 
> I'll probably be looking at a 300mm run between MLT to HEX- HEX to MLT so 600 overall, maybe less if I can manage it, I'll be insulating everything where I can.
> 
> what temp control are you going with ?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Dave



Mate, 600mm total is about as short as you can get I would say so no dramas there. I am using silicone hose for all transfer lines... clean, insulative etc and with cam locks makes for a very flexible process. I will just tuck the tube inside the passive lagging around my BIAB vessel. It is a twin BIAB Herms btw inspired by QldKev.

Temp control will be PID to control the ~2000W heating element in the exchanger based upon HEX outlet temp with constant circulation via a march pump. Its all planned, designed and works in my head but need to weld my rig together.... need to learn how to weld h34r: 

Good luck with yours mate.


----------



## cdbrown

Hi Yardy,

HEX is sitting below the MLT so the return distance of silicone tubing is a bit more than the height of a keg. Look Here for an idea of position.

I don't seem to have a photo of the HERMS outlet, but I've got it coming out the wall of the pot where a T-piece is screwed directly into it. One side has the probe screwed in, the other has a barbed connection for the silicone hose. Basically the wort flows into the small stub part of the T, goes around the corner and up into the silicone. The probe is long enough that it sits well into the flow of wort. I had originally planned to have the wort flow straight through the T and the probe into the stub part, but the probe is too long. Hope this description makes sense, if not I can take a pic tonight.

Cheers
-cdbrown


----------



## yardy

Bongchitis said:


> *Mate, 600mm total is about as short as you can get I would say so no dramas there. I am using silicone hose for all transfer lines... clean, insulative etc and with cam locks makes for a very flexible process. I will just tuck the tube inside the passive lagging around my BIAB vessel. It is a twin BIAB Herms btw inspired by QldKev.
> 
> Temp control will be PID to control the ~2000W heating element in the exchanger based upon HEX outlet temp with constant circulation via a march pump. Its all planned, designed and works in my head but need to weld my rig together.... need to learn how to weld h34r:
> 
> Good luck with yours mate.*




G'day Bong,

Sounds the ducks, looking forward to seeing how it turns out, don't stress the welding side mate, get a little stick welder, some scrap metal and jump in the deep end.

Pm me if you want to talk welders etc

cheers




cdbrown said:


> *Hi Yardy,
> 
> HEX is sitting below the MLT so the return distance of silicone tubing is a bit more than the height of a keg. Look Here for an idea of position.
> 
> I don't seem to have a photo of the HERMS outlet, but I've got it coming out the wall of the pot where a T-piece is screwed directly into it. One side has the probe screwed in, the other has a barbed connection for the silicone hose. Basically the wort flows into the small stub part of the T, goes around the corner and up into the silicone. The probe is long enough that it sits well into the flow of wort. I had originally planned to have the wort flow straight through the T and the probe into the stub part, but the probe is too long. Hope this description makes sense, if not I can take a pic tonight.
> 
> Cheers
> -cdbrown*



G'day CD,

Nice job you did on the rig, makes perfect sense but I would like to see a pic of the outlet if you can post one, no rush though, what's your HEX, an old pot ?

after some advice from Screwy I'm going with this for temp control http://www.craftbrewer.com/shop/details.asp?PID=888

cheers


----------



## cdbrown

Hi Yardy, 

Here's the pic as requested. HEX is a 11L (I think) pot from Big W.


----------



## yardy

cdbrown said:


> Hi Yardy,
> 
> Here's the pic as requested. HEX is a 11L (I think) pot from Big W.




Nice, thanks for that B) 

more questions later..

cheers


----------



## jfinney

Hi there Chappo and other HERMS brewers. 

I thought I'd post a pic of my finished HERMS system, ready for it's maden brew tonight! Thanks to all the generous brewers on this site who have shared valuable knowledge and advice, it just wouldn't be possible without you. 

My only issue with my system when running water trials, is despite a 7.6 litre pot for the HEX, 2400 watt kettle element, about 8 metres copper coil, I just can't get better than 1-1.5 C per minute ramping, with a flow rate of about 5 litres per minute. Any suggestions on how I might improve this performance? Or is this ok? Does water and wort perform very differently, does one heat faster than th other?? 

Cheers guys.


----------



## jfinney

And some more photos.....


----------



## Crusty

jfinney said:


> Hi there Chappo and other HERMS brewers.
> 
> I thought I'd post a pic of my finished HERMS system, ready for it's maden brew tonight! Thanks to all the generous brewers on this site who have shared valuable knowledge and advice, it just wouldn't be possible without you.
> 
> My only issue with my system when running water trials, is despite a 7.6 litre pot for the HEX, 2400 watt kettle element, about 8 metres copper coil, I just can't get better than 1-1.5 C per minute ramping, with a flow rate of about 5 litres per minute. Any suggestions on how I might improve this performance? Or is this ok? Does water and wort perform very differently, does one heat faster than th other??
> 
> Cheers guys. View attachment 43469




Nothing wrong with 1-1.5 deg C a minute, seems to be what everyone is aiming for.

Looks good.


----------



## prongs_386

Just thought I'd share my recent experience of trying to extract a kettle element...

I bought a $16 kettle from target of the brand 'Cheif'. It had a 2200 watt element and quite honestly was a really poor/unsafe design (good thing I'm only using the element and not the kettle).

In order to get the element out I pretty much had to go at it with a hack saw... it probably ended up being in 10 or so pieces by the end of it but I managed to get the element and the plug for the other side of the wall. I ended up just cutting off the power LED and there was a switching mechanism that involved a bit of spare insulated wire getting pushed in and out of a hole that broke the circuit which I removed. The end result I think was good and even though it was a pain to get it out, this kettle is definitely a viable option for a cheap element. 

I should have my copper pipe coming next week, but I still can't find a suitable pot. All of the pots I can find seem to be either shallow (more like a sauce pan) or they have a thick bottom and are expensive. Can anyone suggest any cheap option that I can find in melbourne somewhere or order online with cheap postage?

Thanks.


----------



## sav

Prongs said:


> Just thought I'd share my recent experience of trying to extract a kettle element...
> 
> I bought a $16 kettle from target of the brand 'Cheif'. It had a 2200 watt element and quite honestly was a really poor/unsafe design (good thing I'm only using the element and not the kettle).
> 
> In order to get the element out I pretty much had to go at it with a hack saw... it probably ended up being in 10 or so pieces by the end of it but I managed to get the element and the plug for the other side of the wall. I ended up just cutting off the power LED and there was a switching mechanism that involved a bit of spare insulated wire getting pushed in and out of a hole that broke the circuit which I removed. The end result I think was good and even though it was a pain to get it out, this kettle is definitely a viable option for a cheap element.
> 
> I should have my copper pipe coming next week, but I still can't find a suitable pot. All of the pots I can find seem to be either shallow (more like a sauce pan) or they have a thick bottom and are expensive. Can anyone suggest any cheap option that I can find in melbourne somewhere or order online with cheap postage?
> 
> Thanks.



I got my 10lt pot from Kmart glass lid gott 9metres of copper in it with jug element 1deg a minute no overshoots.

sav


----------



## gava

sav said:


> I got my 10lt pot from Kmart glass lid gott 9metres of copper in it with jug element 1deg a minute no overshoots.
> 
> sav




Where is your probe placement?

gav


----------



## sav

gava said:


> Where is your probe placement?
> 
> gav




Right at the top of my mash tun I made a t piece with the probe in it just as it enters the mash.
sav


----------



## Cannibal Smurf

How did you seal the probe into the compression fitting? I've had my HERMS almost ready to go for ages now but can't work out how to mount my probe, this looks like a good setup but not sure how you got it to seal.


----------



## asis

yardy said:


> OK mate
> 
> do you have any specs on that ?
> 
> temp control, differential etc..
> 
> Dave



Sorry Dave I haven't looked at this thread for ages.

I am currently using an auber 2352 which works perfectly but am considering upgrading to the 2352P and using my old one for my new HLT for even lazier brewing. :blink: 

My HX only holds around 7 litres with a 3/8 SS coil and 2400w element. I have never measured the coil. It ramps at around 1 degree a minute, obviously the grain bed lags a bit til the whole mash has been exchanged.


----------



## sav

Cannibal Smurf said:


> How did you seal the probe into the compression fitting? I've had my HERMS almost ready to go for ages now but can't work out how to mount my probe, this looks like a good setup but not sure how you got it to seal.




I cut a small piece of sicone hoseand put inside the plastic olive its only finger tight works a treat


----------



## egolds77

I have noticed in a lot of the photos of HERMS, the silicone flow tubing un-insulated. Bunnings has dark gray foam plumbing insulation that fit silicone tubing perfectly, it's only a couple of $$$ and it stops a good portion of the heat lose from the tubing from MLT - PUMP - HEX - MLT.
Every little bit helps I figure, and for just a couple of $$$.


----------



## prongs_386

Hey guys.

How did you cut the hole for the element in your hex? I've got a hole drilled of about half an inch but I'm not sure how to get it out to over an inch without paying 50+ for a large bit (which I don't know you can even get).

Thanks.


----------



## razz

I used a step drill bit Prongs, if what you are drilling into isn't too thick then a basic job from the hardware store will do the trick. I think there is a thread a while back on drilling stainless steel.


----------



## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_

Prongs said:


> Hey guys.
> 
> How did you cut the hole for the element in your hex? I've got a hole drilled of about half an inch but I'm not sure how to get it out to over an inch without paying 50+ for a large bit (which I don't know you can even get).
> 
> Thanks.



Get a step drill off ebay, use a small drill and drill heaps of holes around the diameter of the circle you want to cut, punch the hole out and file the hole smooth, or use a hole saw.


----------



## bonj

Drilling stainless steel: High pressure, slow speed, lots of lubricant, and keep it cool.

Should work equally well with the ladies


----------



## hsb

This might be a better place to ask. Has anyone got any tips on how to shield the base of an element in my H/EX?

This picture might explain better than I can, what to use to hide the (mains voltage) contacts ?


----------



## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_

hsb said:


> This might be a better place to ask. Has anyone got any tips on how to shield the base of an element in my H/EX?
> 
> This picture might explain better than I can, what to use to hide the (mains voltage) contacts ?




Dick smith or Jaycar should have a box of some sort to fix your problem, just cut a hole for your element and drill a couple of holes for your wires to slide through. Just remember to silicone up the holes and put a couple of zippy ties on the cables inside the box so if the wires are accidently pulled, nothing comes out.

Cheers


----------



## gregs

This is how I did it and it was a box from J-Car, it worked well.

My element fitting is 50mil BSP so I cut a 50 mil hole in the box and used the fittings to sandwich or port hole the pieces together. I hope that makes sense.


----------



## hsb

That makes perfect sense, thanks guys.. Off to Jaycar...


----------



## hsb

Wired it all up and did a maiden test run last night (water). Worked! Very chuffed. Got quick ramp times, well over 1C a minute.
Will try and get some pictures happening over the w/end.

Still waiting on my BCS-460 temp probe to arrive then I can start getting confused trying to get SSRs happening. (Any tips on (other) good resources for that process?)

For the moment I'm just going to recirculate constantly throughout the mash and turn the H/Ex on and off manually to balance temperature. 
Love that little whirrrr of the pump and the hum of recirculation, sweet sounds to my ears.


----------



## Tim F

most people seem to be using a keggle as the mash tun in these systems. What are the benefits of that over a rectangular esky (which i already have for my existing brew gear)?


----------



## hsb

Probably more an indication that HERMS rigs tend to have been upgraded already? S/S vessel bit more robust to rig up a mash return/good false bottom to ensure no stuck mash. 
I've seen debates (on here) over rectangle v circle for mash tuns but from memory both systems can achieve similar results.


No reason at all you couldn't use an Esky Mash Tun that I can think of.
The whole rig including H/Ex could be in eskies, although have to be careful with elements in plastic eskies/buckets, plenty do it that way. Especially the States with their 'coolers'.


----------



## asis

Tim F said:


> most people seem to be using a keggle as the mash tun in these systems. What are the benefits of that over a rectangular esky (which i already have for my existing brew gear)?




My original tun was a round cooler so I already had a round false bottom. And the fact that stainless is pretty much forever and I liked the idea of only having stainless or silicone is my system.


----------



## Frag_Dog

I am in the process of building a HERMS.

Working on what to do for a tube coil. I have 50feet of 1/2 SS Tube that I'm looking to get coiled up. The pot I bought is a Big W 7.6L pot. I figure I can get about 5-6m in there. Looking at what others have done, this is a little short, 7m seems to be the minimum people go for. Should I ditch the pot and try and find a bigger one and go for more length? I have plenty of tube, just don't want to have to buy more of it if i come up short.

These are the measurements I'm working on...

Pot Size:
Inner Diam = 224mm
Inner Height = 200mm

Coil:
Tube Diam = 13mm

Max Inner Diam = 154mm
Max Outer Diam = 180mm

Height = 150mm (allowing 20mm at the bottom and 30mm at the top)

Coil Length = 6200mm

I've left a bit of room around the coil so it isn't cramped in too badly. I have 20mm either side and the 20mm / 30mm top and bottom.

Any advice suggestions? I'm going to get this rolled by a metal shop as my attempt to hand roll have failed pretty badly.


----------



## cdbrown

Have you considered doing a double coil?. I use a 7.6L pot with the double coil and it does a fine job - probably overkill based on how short a time the element gets switched on.


----------



## Frag_Dog

cdbrown said:


> Have you considered doing a double coil?. I use a 7.6L pot with the double coil and it does a fine job - probably overkill based on how short a time the element gets switched on.



I sort of had, but I think coiling the SS is going too be difficult. I broke a bunnings pipe bender that i used previously with no issue on non-soft copper. This SS is pretty tough...


----------



## scooter_59

Frag_Dog said:


> I sort of had, but I think coiling the SS is going too be difficult. I broke a bunnings pipe bender that i used previously with no issue on non-soft copper. This SS is pretty tough...




I have the same size pot and have shoved 6 mtrs of 1/2 " copper pipe into it and have no problems with temp control or ramp times . Although ss has different heat properties to copper .

Cheers
Leachim


----------



## Frag_Dog

leachim said:


> I have the same size pot and have shoved 6 mtrs of 1/2 " copper pipe into it and have no problems with temp control or ramp times . Although ss has different heat properties to copper .
> 
> Cheers
> Leachim



Thanks Lachim! What size batches do you run? Idealy I would like this setup to be able to do double batches (40L). The tube i have is pretty thin walled, and I can feel the temp change running water thru it.

Playing with the numbers, I may be able to get 7m worth in it.


----------



## cdbrown

Get it as close as you can to the bottom and as close as you can to the wall of the pot to increase the circumference of each loop. 6-7m is probably going to be sufficient, but it might just take a little longer to ramp up if doing step mashes or at mash out. It probably won't be that much as it's only a small amount of volume that goes through the HERMS at any time, so it does take a while to heat 40L of mash up.


----------



## scooter_59

Frag_Dog said:


> Thanks Lachim! What size batches do you run? Idealy I would like this setup to be able to do double batches (40L). The tube i have is pretty thin walled, and I can feel the temp change running water thru it.
> 
> Playing with the numbers, I may be able to get 7m worth in it.



I have only done single batches with it . I have noticed that if I don't open the tap fully I can increase the temp very quickly as there is more liquid sitting in the coil for an extended period of time . If I open the tap full bore the temp takes a bit longer to ramp up . So what I do is fill my mash tun ( Esky ) with the desired amount of water for mashing in and set the temp and wait it doesn't take that long especially when you start mucking around with setting up the grain bill and organising the brew day . So as far as brewing a double batch it probably wouldn't add much time to your brew day .


Cheers
Leachim


----------



## cdbrown

By reducing the flow then of course the liquid has more time in the coil and is more affected by the HERMS temp. However the mash itself doesn't benefit at all - less flow of hotter liquid in or more flow of warm liquid in results in the same temp change in the mash. Leave it on full flow and allow the PID to heat up the HERMS water enough so that the outlet of the coil is at the desired temp. If the HERMS is boiling away and it's not reaching the temp then there's not enough coils in the water.


----------



## gava

Agreed, My first HERMS beer attempt overshot and then had troubles keep it steady because people said the slower the flow the better the exchange and quicker it works.. it worked to good.. 

Next brew i opened up the taps and let it work itself out and it worked a treat.. 

cheers for the info guys..

gav



cdbrown said:


> By reducing the flow then of course the liquid has more time in the coil and is more affected by the HERMS temp. However the mash itself doesn't benefit at all - less flow of hotter liquid in or more flow of warm liquid in results in the same temp change in the mash. Leave it on full flow and allow the PID to heat up the HERMS water enough so that the outlet of the coil is at the desired temp. If the HERMS is boiling away and it's not reaching the temp then there's not enough coils in the water.


----------



## cdbrown

However - it pays to have a fairly runny mash as a stuck mash can cause problems. I've had a few where it's slowed down and when I cleared it the false bottom (by giving it a stir) the liquid coming out of the herms was way past target temp due to the residence time in the coil.


----------



## yardy

what ratio are we talking cd ? 3lt/kg ?





cdbrown said:


> However - it pays to have a fairly runny mash as a stuck mash can cause problems. I've had a few where it's slowed down and when I cleared it the false bottom (by giving it a stir) the liquid coming out of the herms was way past target temp due to the residence time in the coil.


----------



## raven19

cdbrown said:


> By reducing the flow then of course the liquid has more time in the coil and is more affected by the HERMS temp. *However the mash itself doesn't benefit at all*



Not really an issue though mate, as you are only concerned with the liquid temperature (where your sugars and enzymes are working).


----------



## cdbrown

raven19 said:


> Not really an issue though mate, as you are only concerned with the liquid temperature (where your sugars and enzymes are working).



Strange, I've had far better efficiency by ensuring the full flow rate and maintaining the mash temp rather than just the temp at the outlet of the HERMS. I would have thought that as the HERMS is only seeing a very small % of the overall mash volume that the mash would be the most important part and not what's coming out of the HERMS. I basically have my HERMS set 2C above what I want the mash to be and that keeps the tun at the target temp.

When I was making the HERMS the target mash temp my efficiencies were lower because the tun always lagged behind. Only a small amount of volume was getting the right conversion temps.


----------



## asis

cdbrown said:


> Strange, I've had far better efficiency by ensuring the full flow rate and maintaining the mash temp rather than just the temp at the outlet of the HERMS. I would have thought that as the HERMS is only seeing a very small % of the overall mash volume that the mash would be the most important part and not what's coming out of the HERMS. I basically have my HERMS set 2C above what I want the mash to be and that keeps the tun at the target temp.
> 
> When I was making the HERMS the target mash temp my efficiencies were lower because the tun always lagged behind. Only a small amount of volume was getting the right conversion temps.



cd do you have your tun and return piping insulated?

I have always set my pid at my desired mash temp and get a very consistent 83% efficiency. (probe at the coil exit)


----------



## mxd

cdbrown said:


> Strange, I've had far better efficiency by ensuring the full flow rate and maintaining the mash temp rather than just the temp at the outlet of the HERMS.



I don't think Mash Temp stability will affect efficiency, I believe I get better efficiency because of the constant recirculation. The temp delta my just give you more or less fermentable wort (attenuation ?)

N.B -> HERMS, temp control on wort return, full open valve, I don't stir during as I then get a slow (not stuck) sparge.


----------



## cdbrown

Any reason for measuring temp just before return to tun rather than outlet of the HERMS? There could be a bit of a temp drop across that silicone hose depending on the ambient temp. Maybe it is the constant recirc providing a good "wash" of grains.


----------



## mxd

I assume the recirc is what gave me my efficiency improvement from pre HERMS 40 ltr @67% to 60 ltr @80%.

I measure at the return as that's where I thought I read it should be, I also worked on the theory that if the return temp is at mash temp and the flow quick enough then the MLT will be at the mash temp at some stage.


----------



## glaab

your leds should be in parallel not in series


----------



## dmac80

hsb,

Your leds will need to go from switched active to neutral, the same as your pump and heaters. 

Have you earthed your steel enclosure? Couldn't see from your pictures whether you had or not.

If you aren't sure it would be best to get an electrician to check it out for you.

Cheers


----------



## hsb

Hi dmac
Enclosure is earthed. Door/Enclosure runs to Earth Bus.
The Hex Element is also earthed to its plug.

I'm also running the whole setup through an RCD for extra security.

I don't know what "switched active to neutral" means?

I have used only the live wiring to run switches and LEDs and relay.
The Neutral/Earth runs direct to Sockets for all devices.

I'm hoping I'm close to correct wiring, the deeper you dig the more my limits are exposed with 240v. 
I understand all advice proferred is not a substitute for professional assessment by a qualified sparky.

If anyone had a previously created schematic to share, that'd be great, or further advice to see me right. Thanks for your patience.


----------



## dmac80

hsb,

Try this schematic, it will indicate when your heating elements have power and gives you a manual override on your HEX, which i'm assuming you want.

View attachment img_5170814_0001.pdf


Cheers

Edit: Just re read your post, if you want to be able to switch off your HEX, just delete the wiring from the first contact on the HEX which bypasses the SSR.


----------



## hsb

Cheers, I'll have a look tonight. I owe you a homebrew or three.


----------



## hsb

Thanks guys, got it sorted. LEDs wired in parallel, control panel is working perfectly. Needed a bit of help getting over the line there.
I've deleted my original posts above, which glaab and dmac were kind enough to reply to, lest anyone should look to them for electrical advice!

So I've done a test run of my newborn 4v HERMS which has a Control Panel containing a BCS-460/SSR to do the magic stuff.
Ramped up 40L, I'd normally heat strike water using my over-the-side immersion, but thought it'd be a good test. 
My only problem was priming my pump. Realised my HLT pickup was letting air in but a few tweaks, bit of tape and the pump is flying too. Forgot to save my BCS log, will try and remember when I fire it up 'in anger' in the coming weeks.

Here's some pictures of it, the Heat Exchanger came from Stainless Stuff, who was great to deal with and happy to accomodate any changes to the design. 
The stand is $100 of pine with some giant carriage bolts, courtesy of Botany Timber, who were nice enough to throw in a free bottle of decking oil as well. It probably won't resale as bespoke quality furniture, but it's solid as a rock and I'm happy with the outcome, especially with no router/circular saw/workbench or vice, quality dodgy handcraftmanship.
My boil kettle isn't in shot, I just mashout to a bucket, drain to kettle and boil on an italian spiral burner. Didn't see the need, for me, to accommodate it into the brew stand.



































I've enjoyed the process but would not recommend it to anyone looking to save time and money!
A few odds and ends left to do, will probably lag the tubing and might relocate the control panel a bit higher up, but all in all it's about time I made some fracking beer after months of messing around making this!!!


----------



## dmac80

Good job hsb,

That control panel is a flash looking bit of kit, very nice.

Cheers


----------



## fraser_john

Nice, 

just watch the HEX when you have it "on" rather than auto, even on auto, with no wort flowing, the sensor reads like it needs to heat the HEX, so it goes about its business and ends up boiling! 

This has happened about four times to me now, it is easy to get distracted by the sparge, recirculating, mash ph, sparge ph, wort gravity, chatting to other brewers on IRC etc etc etc.

I have a standard PID that I plan on putting in my HEX that will stop it from heating past 95c by adding in another SSR between the soak/ramp mash PID and the HEX, so regardless of what the mash PID is trying to do, the secondary PID will prevent boils.

Just a matter of finding time.


----------



## vykuza

hsb said:


> Here's some pictures of it, the Heat Exchanger came from Stainless Stuff, who was great to deal with and happy to accomodate any changes to the design.




HSB it looks the goods. Now time to make some beer!

Out of interest, what changes did you make to the design of the HEX from Stainless stuff?


----------



## hsb

Re: Boiling HEX, thanks, good tip. My LED is wired so it'll show me whenever the HEX is active so in theory
Might see if I can use the BCS to effect the same outcome - ie; never boil. 
The BCS is a great bit of gear, I'm loving it already. The 'On' HEX state was a 'just in case', I don't intend using it unless there's a BCS problem. 

The HEX design is, I think, originally John's (above.) My only changes were fittings and location of coil within but Emmanuel (SS Stuff guy) was happy to work with whatever. 
The only change I could retrospectively think of for now is addition of a nut on base to make Earthing easier and maybe a slight change to base so it drains 100%, I am left with a couple of mm of water due to flat bottom and slight recess around element. The lid is also a bit of a PITA and could be better, I just tend to lie if over the top rather than fit it on.


----------



## vykuza

Good to know - thanks mate.


----------



## hsb

Used my all-new HERMS rig last night, knocked out a Gale's HSB clone (recipe from Wheeler CAMRA book)

Was like a scene out of Bladerunner with this thing whirring and gurgling and bleeping away in the garden, strange green light and steam spewing out. And yes, I did that laundry as well :wub: 





Was like some kind of guilty pleasure sitting there while it did it's thing. No major issues, recirculation was easy, just set and forget.

My only problem is the constraint of crap house wiring that means I can only run HEX or Immersion Heater at any one time, meaning my Strike water is going cold whilst I mash. So was a 20minute lag when I made 2nd water addition (post-mashout) as the temp recovered from 56C back to 76C. Not sure if that will effect the end product? Didn't take an OG as yet. I no chill so it's stashed for later.
I could leave the grain dry and steaming and recirculate the HLT to mashout temperature before adding water to Mash if it makes a difference.

My schedule was:

- Heat HLT with Immersion to Strike temp
- Dough in. Roughly 66C.
- HEX on. Recirculate 90min at 66C
- HEX raise to Mashout - 76C. 1st Runnings.
- HEX off. Add more water.
- HEX on. Recirculate 10min at 76C (took 20 minutes to get from 56 to 76, so this step takes 30 minutes)
- HEX off. Mashout. 2nd Runnings.... boil/hops/cube etc...

Any tips from experienced HERMSALAITES welcomed

Anyway, all in all chuffed to bits that it works. Recirculating rocks, get around 1C a minute recirculating, pump (March 815) seems easily able to handle running at full tilt using my 1/2" plumbing.


----------



## NickB

See if you can run an extension cable (preferably a good quality one rated to 10A) to another outlet on a separate circuit. 

Most likely you'll have a 16A or 20A circuit. If that's the case, isolate what points this circuit runs, and what's plugged into them. If you're lucky, you may get away with it.

If not, maybe get a dedicated 20A or 32A circuit run to your brewing area. Prices may vary depending on what sparky you use, and wether he's an AHB member or not 

Cheers

PS: Blingy lights mate, mine will hopefully look something like that soon h34r:


----------



## mxd

hsb said:


> My only problem is the constraint of crap house wiring that means I can only run HEX or Immersion Heater at any one time, meaning my Strike water is going cold whilst I mash. So was a 20minute lag when I made 2nd water addition (post-mashout) as the temp recovered from 56C back to 76C. Not sure if that will effect the end product?



on your next run, can you see how often then the HX is actually taken power ?

If it's "off" for a "period" of time, you could possibly look at wiring some logic in that will send power to the HLT when the HX doesn't require it ?

some more things that may assist, run a 1200W element in the HLT that you use when your using the HX (you should get 16 amps out of a 10 amp line).

or, with a bit more "start-up" time.

Fill HLT, heat to 80ish.

put the required amount of water in the MLT and then start running the HX (initially set the temp to +5 ??), when the MLT is at temp, dough in and then set the HX back to mash temp.

Hopefully by the time you doing a mash out, the temp in the HLT would have only dropped 5-10 degrees.

Looks great by the way.

Matt


----------



## hsb

Thanks guys, some good ideas there.

I will investigate the Fuse Box a bit more and see exactly what I do have.
Both my H/Ex and Immersion are around 9A, so maybe I could get away with it, that running both won't work is an untested assumption on my part.

Otherwise I could flick between H/Ex and Immersion, or rejig my brewday a bit. I suppose I could just let the mash sit, whilst I recirc my strike water too. Decisions decisions!

It is on wheels so I could just wheel it down the street looking for power sources, loose lamppost covers lol. Mobile brew cart, will swop power for beer.


----------



## fraser_john

I use a "normally closed" SSR to manage the HEX/HLT issue. When the HEX is on, the HLT element is off, when the HEX is off, the HLT element is on. Both are managed by PIDs. I can run my system now from a standard 10amp circuit.


----------



## mateostojic

fraser_john said:


> I use a "normally closed" SSR to manage the HEX/HLT issue. When the HEX is on, the HLT element is off, when the HEX is off, the HLT element is on. Both are managed by PIDs. I can run my system now from a standard 10amp circuit.



I am currently designing my HERMS control box as well. The design uses two 16A circuits and it would be really useful if i could use the principle that you mentioned here. I have tried to understand how this works but i cant figure it out. Do you think i could trouble you for a quick circuit diagram which shows how you use the normally closed SSR to run the HEX and HLT elements?

Cheers 
Mate


----------



## NickB

fraser_john said:


> I use a "normally closed" SSR to manage the HEX/HLT issue. When the HEX is on, the HLT element is off, when the HEX is off, the HLT element is on. Both are managed by PIDs. I can run my system now from a standard 10amp circuit.



Sounds like the plan if you either a. Don't have the option of using multiple house circuits (as an example, the two bedroom place we are currently in has only 2 x 16A circuits. I manage to run a 2200W HLT and a 1600W HEx off these no problems) or b. don't have the capacity to either run a dedicated circuit, or upgrade the current RCDs to a higher rating (16A to a 20A for example - This is assuming that a correct or higher gauge existing cable is sufficient to run a higher Amp circuit - consult a qualified electrician to verify!).

One question FJ - does your setup add significant time to your brewday? I only ask, as my HLT seems to be running fairly constantly from mash-in to mash-out (however this could just be the HLT liquor reaching set-point, turning off, and then dropping below set-point again... I tend to be tasked with other 'important things' to do on a brew day....)?

Cheers


----------



## fraser_john

NickB said:


> One question FJ - does your setup add significant time to your brewday? I only ask, as my HLT seems to be running fairly constantly from mash-in to mash-out (however this could just be the HLT liquor reaching set-point, turning off, and then dropping below set-point again... I tend to be tasked with other 'important things' to do on a brew day....)?



Not at all, with a 2400w (10 amp draw) element and a 90 minute mash schedule, the HLT has almost dedicated use of the circuit after the mash program has reached set point and heats to 76c in about 30 minutes. I have never been left waiting for the HLT waiting to heat.




mateOstojic said:


> Do you think i could trouble you for a quick circuit diagram which shows how you use the normally closed SSR to run the HEX and HLT elements?



Image

Original concept by Kirem, many thanks to his hints and tips during the control case build.


----------



## NickB

Excellent, thanks FJ.

BTW, you're link is not working 

Cheers


----------



## bonj

NickB said:


> Excellent, thanks FJ.
> 
> BTW, you're link is not working
> 
> Cheers


Disgusting language, Nick... calling John a link! :lol:


----------



## fraser_john

NickB said:


> Excellent, thanks FJ.
> 
> BTW, you're link is not working
> 
> Cheers



Try again, I had not made it public.


----------



## NickB

Bonj said:


> Disgusting language, Nick... calling John a link! :lol:



You should hear the names I call you in private....


----------



## bonj

NickB said:


> You should hear the names I call you in private....


What do you mean in private?


----------



## NickB

Ummm, arrgh, ummm, no. Nothing to do with lubing up. Keep that betwixt InCider and yourself and BaaBra, dirty, filthy, sewer-dwelling man-beast. 









h34r:














PS: do you have a link to a shed I could win, by any chance????!!?!!???


----------



## gava

Hey guys, Thinking of going to brewtroller.. 

Had a dip at a idea of a single pump HERMS here is a animated GIF of the process..

feedback please?? will this work? easy done?


----------



## roller997

Fraser_John,
Where did you source the SSR which is normally letting current through? Also, how many Amps can it handle?

Thanks

Roller


----------



## Bizier

I have just pestered Fraser_John to no end just now on this issue so I can give some summary:

I can confirm that it is solely on the low voltage control side of the element-controlling SSRs.

According to FJ's website he got it from Farnell who are now Element 14 here in Australia. http://au.element14.com/

I am also keen on knowing the exact SSR model, as I can't seem to meaningfully wade through the thousands of SSRs that they offer. I have requested a suitable part with known specs, and am waiting on a result.

My PIDs state 24v DC control, but I can't find a spec for the amperage, though I assume it to be low. I am electrically challenged, so I am unsure what hooking a multimeter up in series between the PID and the element-controlling SSR actually measures - I am assuming the draw on the control side of the SSR.


----------



## fraser_john

Jeez, I am glad I am so anal that I retain almost everything! I found the original receipt from Farmell....here is the exact item I ordered:

Normally Closed SSR -> CROUZET - MPDCD3-B - SSR, PCB MOUNT, 60VDC, 32VDC, 3A


----------



## adryargument

gava said:


> Hey guys, Thinking of going to brewtroller..
> 
> Had a dip at a idea of a single pump HERMS here is a animated GIF of the process..
> 
> feedback please?? will this work? easy done?



Great diagram, however what is the air pump for?? And why the HLT / HEX / Boiler.


----------



## gava

the airpump is to be used with the brewtroller unit to get the levels of the water in the vessels.. 
You configure the airpump to put out about 3 bubbles a second then you start to fill your vessels and configure the unit to know how much water is in at different presures..
i.e. program run "fill vessels" the ball valves will turn on until the vessels hit a level which I set and then turn off.

edit: BrewTroller Bubbler Setup

In the kettle its to turn off the ball valve when it hits the pre-boil volume...

The reason for HLT / HEX / Boiler is because thats what I use... 



adryargument said:


> Great diagram, however what is the air pump for?? And why the HLT / HEX / Boiler.


----------



## QldKev

gava said:


> Hey guys, Thinking of going to brewtroller..
> 
> Had a dip at a idea of a single pump HERMS here is a animated GIF of the process..
> 
> feedback please?? will this work? easy done?
> 
> <pic removed>



Only difference I would do is underlet the water into the Mashtun from the HLT. 

QldKev


----------



## gava

Thats how to do it now, I was going to do this but once I do that the plumbing gets a little more complex..which equals more moterized ball valves which aren't cheap.. Although saying that I really love underletting due to the fact I dont get any dough balls and its easy.. I might have another look and see what I can work out..



QldKev said:


> Only difference I would do is underlet the water into the Mashtun from the HLT.
> 
> QldKev


----------



## roller997

Thanks to both Bitzier and Fraser_John.
I can offer some advice on the switching current required to turn on your AC SSR to power the heating element.
Usually, the current required to turn on 40+ Amps of heating power by an SSR is about 25ma - this is 0.025Amp of power, so even the smallest of surface mount SSR's which are conducting current when off would cater for swithcing on your HLT SSR. 

FJ - I am assuming you are using the HLT PID to switch the output from the DC SSR so that your HLT SSR only gets the DC control from the DC SSR when the temperature is too low?

Thanks

Roller


----------



## Bizier

Roller: mlt pid control voltage breaks hlt pid control voltage before load ssr, but otherwise it is on. Mlt should only be intermittently pulsing, and it is these pulse times where the hlt is denied power. My first reaction was to worry about the pid algorithm being thrown out, but FJ said not a big issue, perhaps a minor hlt overshoot, which if is repeatable, could be roughley compensated for.

ED: SSR ordered.


----------



## crozdog

Hi gents,

got my control panel wired up & working! :super: 

now for the HEX. Have a great titanium coil (thanks Pumpy) and a 19l keg it'll fit into (with some minor modification) But need an element.

Can anyone recommend where to source a 6kW 11/2" screw in element & the union to screw it into? would prefer an element that is only about 300mm long.

Thank in advance.

Crozdog


----------



## matho

Here is 1 1/4 inch if that's any help

Cheers matho


----------



## crozdog

matho said:


> Here is 1 1/4 inch if that's any help
> 
> Cheers matho


cheers matho. 

I meant 1 1/4". Am however curious as to why an 8kw element is nearly $100 cheaper?

anyone found anything cheaper? 

a 2" might also work if anyone knows a good source.


----------



## Bizier

My morning coil build. Inner coil is made of odds and sods of copper I have scrounged, outer was fresh. Picture of base of coil shows patented laminar prevention hydrodynamic curve (pre-dinged copper).


----------



## zxhoon

been flicking through a few pages, just wanted to make a note if it hasn't been done before, SSRs can fail ON and also should NOT be thought of as an isolating device, ie with mains power on one side and the SSR off there is still potential to be shocked on the output
Im sure its not really an issue as I doubt anyone is touching anything while power is on but I hate hearing about people that get a zap from some bit of gear just because they didn't know...

my old boss was the Crouzet SSR (amongst other things) agent in Melbourne, dont think we ever stocked normally closed units though...
had a whole range of 240V to 600V rated devices, various current ranges up to around 50A from memory (been a couple of years since I worked there)
haven't spoken to him in a while but if anyone wants a price on SSRs let me know, should be able to beat the Element14 prices...

also does anyone use phase control SSRs for finer control of the heating element? instead of pulsing, some temperature controllers feed a 0/4-20mA or 0-10V signal to the SSR which then chops the AC wave for smoother temp control, better than on/off however you get more noise on your supply from it...


----------



## Frag_Dog

I am planning to put an order in to Auber Instruments for control of my HERMS. I just wanted to run the list past people experienced with building a HERMS to make sure there are no glaring omitions

PID Temperature Controller w/ Ramp/soak, Kiln (SSR Output) - $77.95
40 A SSR - $19.00
Heat Sink for Solid State Relay, 40A - $19.50
Liquid tight RTD sensor, 60 mm probe, 1/4 NPT Thread - $23.95

Have I got the right PID? Is there a PC interface cable I need to program the ramp/soak or is that done with the controls on the device? I realise I don't NEED a heat sink, but its only a few extra bucks and I may as well get it now... According to the specs the PID can use a RTD Sensor, and from what I read, these are better then the K types.

I'm going to get some sort of waterproof box to stick it all in. Then get it wired up by a proper sparky, but I'll worry about that once i get this squared away.


----------



## hockadays

looks pretty good. get the heat sink as better to have it rather then not. I would also avoid their SSR as I had one melt on me recently lucky I was there and caught it early and just lost the SSR. You program the pid through the pid itself pretty easy once you do it a few times.The RTD is better then the K type, I had the K type first then went the rtd for its accuracy. I have the same setup as this so if you have any more qs pm me ..


----------



## Crusty

Hi all,
Just curious to find out what the water temperature might be in your hex vessel if the wort is coming out & maintaining 66deg.
Would it be a fair assumption the hex water may be in the mid to high 70deg range or higher?


----------



## cdbrown

If it's just maintaining it then it would probably be ranging from 66-80. But mostly just sticking around 66. Ramping is a different beast and would be higher.

All depends on the temp going in really.


----------



## Crusty

cdbrown said:


> If it's just maintaining it then it would probably be ranging from 66-80. But mostly just sticking around 66. Ramping is a different beast and would be higher.
> 
> All depends on the temp going in really.



Thanks cd.
Just curious to know as the centre of my outlet is approx 60mm from the top of my pot. Was a little concerned about how much water needed to cover the coil & if the water was reaching temps to start the water rolling I might get some spillage due to my hex water level. Do you lose much to evaporation over the course of a 60-90min re-circulation requiring some topup water to the hex pot. My hex pot is only 7.6lts.


----------



## hsb

I get no noticeable evap loss from HEX over 90 min mashes and no boiling. My water level sits only 1-2cm below the lid of HEX.
The PID should throttle the HEX so you get nowhere near to boiling, switching on/off more the closer you get to target temp.

Fraser John mentioned a few pages back about forgetting the HEX is on sometimes and it boiling that way...


----------



## Crusty

hsb said:


> I get no noticeable evap loss from HEX over 90 min mashes and no boiling. My water level sits only 1-2cm below the lid of HEX.
> The PID should throttle the HEX so you get nowhere near to boiling, switching on/off more the closer you get to target temp.
> 
> Fraser John mentioned a few pages back about forgetting the HEX is on sometimes and it boiling that way...



Great news. My water level in the hex will be around 30-40mm from the top of the hex pot allowing a comfortable level over the coil.
Gotta hurry up & get this thing operational.


----------



## cdbrown

I normally only top up the hex when setting up the rig as it splashes about when moving to/from the shed. I've got a 7.6L pot and the water level is just under under the inlet and outlet pipe. As there's plenty of copper in the hex it warms up pretty quickly. 

The hex will boil away if the target temp isn't reached as the PID will continue to pump power to the element. Be mindful of a stuck mash as it can boil away if the liquid isn't moving past the temp gauge. I use the hex to ramp up to mash out temps and I can't remember it ever coming to the boil, you might get some air bubbles around the element as water just like any kettle, but it's only small amount.


----------



## Crusty

cdbrown said:


> I normally only top up the hex when setting up the rig as it splashes about when moving to/from the shed. I've got a 7.6L pot and the water level is just under under the inlet and outlet pipe. As there's plenty of copper in the hex it warms up pretty quickly.
> 
> The hex will boil away if the target temp isn't reached as the PID will continue to pump power to the element. Be mindful of a stuck mash as it can boil away if the liquid isn't moving past the temp gauge. I use the hex to ramp up to mash out temps and I can't remember it ever coming to the boil, you might get some air bubbles around the element as water just like any kettle, but it's only small amount.



My initial strike water is over 3l/kg, 3.75l/kg most commonly. Hopefully stuck sparges won't be encountered with this ratio & a little throttling back with the ball valve.
Is your copper coil fully immersed or do you have the top of your coil exposed to the air? Not too sure if that's important or not.


----------



## cdbrown

The coil is fully immersed, the inlet and outlet pipes aren't. The inlet/outlet are only exposed to the air in the pot with the lid on which is warmer than the outside temp.
I am planning on insulating the silicone hose at some time to reduce any losses and reduce the load on the herms.


----------



## mateostojic

Gents,
I have been lurking around the herms threads for a while now and am currently building my own 4 vessel single tier e-herms. I have been working on the control box and have come up with an arrangement. It would be very helpful if you guys could have a quick look at it and make some suggestions for improvement, as I am sure there is room for improvement since I am a complete newbie when it comes to electrical wiring, but I have done my best to learn.

Before anyone makes the comment, I would like to mention that I am intending to get a qualified sparky to have a look at the control box before I start using it.  

A bit about the design:
- 4 vessel E-herms designed for single batches, which is powered by a single 10A circuit. 
- The HLT, MLT and HERMS heating elements are all 2200W
- There is a water pump as well as wort pump, both of which are 809 series March
- The thick wires in the diagram are 1.5mm2, the thin wires are 1mm2 and the purple wires are 0.5mm2
I have tried to use relays switches to make it so that only one heating element can be powered at any given time, so that I can use a single 10A circuit. 
I have also put in an amp meter to make sure my system is not drawing too much power. 

Thanks in advance,
Mate 

View attachment Control_Box_Wiring_Rev_2a.pdf


----------



## mxd

seems fine to me (n.b s/w guy who releases smoke from most things he touches)

how big is the kettle etc..

how are u doing your power priority ?


----------



## mateostojic

All three vessels are 50L. 
The relays are set so that the HEX element has priority, but when it is not on, the power is allowed to be used by the HLT element.

I should also mention that with the three PIDs; the first will be used to control the HLT element, the second will be used to control the HEX element (probe on outflow) while the third will just be used to monitor the wort out of the MLT. 

Mate


----------



## dmac80

mateOstojic said:


> Gents,
> I have been lurking around the herms threads for a while now and am currently building my own 4 vessel single tier e-herms. I have been working on the control box and have come up with an arrangement. It would be very helpful if you guys could have a quick look at it and make some suggestions for improvement, as I am sure there is room for improvement since I am a complete newbie when it comes to electrical wiring, but I have done my best to learn.
> 
> Before anyone makes the comment, I would like to mention that I am intending to get a qualified sparky to have a look at the control box before I start using it.
> 
> A bit about the design:
> - 4 vessel E-herms designed for single batches, which is powered by a single 10A circuit.
> - The HLT, MLT and HERMS heating elements are all 2200W
> - There is a water pump as well as wort pump, both of which are 809 series March
> - The thick wires in the diagram are 1.5mm2, the thin wires are 1mm2 and the purple wires are 0.5mm2
> I have tried to use relays switches to make it so that only one heating element can be powered at any given time, so that I can use a single 10A circuit.
> I have also put in an amp meter to make sure my system is not drawing too much power.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Mate



Mate,
It looks pretty good, and will work. The only things i would recommend is to wire the whole thing in 1.5 mm2 wire (not a lot of advantage in using smaller wire), that way if your 2 amp fuse need to be upgraded, you've got plenty of room to move. I would even consider using 2.5 mm2 on the power section unprotected by the fuse as this will only be protected by the circuit breaker or fuse on your house, which could be as high as 20 amps.
You may want to look at another couple of SSR's to replace your relay arrangement for your priority supply to your HERMS and HLT. Apparently you can get normally closed SSR's which would be suitable for cutting power to your HLT when the HERMS is in service. I'll see if i can find the thread where it was detailed. If you use a relay, it's likely to get hammered by the Controller and wear our quickly (and be noisy).
Cheers
Dan

EDIT: It was in this thread, i'd say you've read it.


----------



## mxd

mateOstojic said:


> All three vessels are 50L.
> The relays are set so that the HEX element has priority, but when it is not on, the power is allowed to be used by the HLT element.
> 
> I should also mention that with the three PIDs; the first will be used to control the HLT element, the second will be used to control the HEX element (probe on outflow) while the third will just be used to monitor the wort out of the MLT.
> 
> Mate




I found a single 2200 watt wouldn't get my single batch to a boil, have you got the kettle built yet if so give it a try or maybe consider gas for the kettle ?


----------



## mateostojic

Thanks Dan, Yeah i remember reading that you can get normally open and normally closed SSRs but i didnt realise that they would be better then the relays. I will leave room for more SSRs in my control box in case the relays fail. I have already bought the gear so for now i'll stick to the relays, but i will report on any problems i have.

mxd, thats a bit of a concern that you couldnt get a single batch to boil with 2200W. I was really banking on that. Did you insulate your vessel and did you use a lid? If the 2200W doesent work, ill have to upgrade to 2400W for the kettle as i really want to avoid using gas. I havent got the kettle vessel yet, its due to arrive today or tomorrow. 

Thanks,
Mate


----------



## dmac80

mateOstojic said:


> Thanks Dan, Yeah i remember reading that you can get normally open and normally closed SSRs but i didnt realise that they would be better then the relays. I will leave room for more SSRs in my control box in case the relays fail. I have already bought the gear so for now i'll stick to the relays, but i will report on any problems i have.
> 
> mxd, thats a bit of a concern that you couldnt get a single batch to boil with 2200W. I was really banking on that. Did you insulate your vessel and did you use a lid? If the 2200W doesent work, ill have to upgrade to 2400W for the kettle as i really want to avoid using gas. I havent got the kettle vessel yet, its due to arrive today or tomorrow.
> 
> Thanks,
> Mate



Mate,
I'll second mxd's post on the 2200W element in a single batch. I had one in my kettle, it would get to a boil (kettle was insulated) but it was a fairly pissweak one, and i think it was contributing to low hop utilisation. I ended up changing to a mongolian, goes good now.
If you've already got the gear you can always try it out and add another element at a later date if you need to.
Cheers
Dan


----------



## tuckerle71

Mate,

+1 for adding an RCD. (from an Electricians point of view)

I have been looking at setting up a 4 vessel HERMS system, so I was interested to see your design.
Some very good features in your design, like prioritizing your heating elements and adding an off switch to your alarm buzzer.

A couple of things I did note:

The wires connecting the alarms on your HERMS and HLT PID Controllers have been left out, so your Buzzer is only monitoring your MLT Alarms.

I would probably use a D.C. Plugpack for power to the Ammeter rather than the hassle of mounting a Transformer and Power Supply. (Actually, I probably wouldn't have bothered with an ammeter at all)

It may be a good idea to interlock your Heat Exchanger Element with the Pump Run Switch so that you are less likely to boil the HEX, although that might make it difficult to get to temperature the first time..

By mounting the RCD through the front of your box, you would be able to do away with the Relay and Main Switch (this has the added advantage of allowing you to hit the Test Switch to turn it off each time)

Oh, and Thankyou. If I hadn't been reading your posts, I wouldn't have known that the price of SSR's had come down so much in the last few years.

Leigh


----------



## mateostojic

dmac said:


> Mate,
> I'll second mxd's post on the 2200W element in a single batch. I had one in my kettle, it would get to a boil (kettle was insulated) but it was a fairly pissweak one, and i think it was contributing to low hop utilisation. I ended up changing to a mongolian, goes good now.
> If you've already got the gear you can always try it out and add another element at a later date if you need to.
> Cheers
> Dan



yeah i will try it with the HLT before i drill holes in the kettle. I might add another 2200 element to the kettle and run it through i separate 10A circuit, or ill see if a single 2400W will be enough. I have a NASA burner which would boil the bejesus out of the wort, however i want the rig to be indoors...and also the place i am renting is made of wood. 





MrTucker said:


> Mate,
> 
> +1 for adding an RCD. (from an Electricians point of view)
> 
> I have been looking at setting up a 4 vessel HERMS system, so I was interested to see your design.
> Some very good features in your design, like prioritizing your heating elements and adding an off switch to your alarm buzzer.
> 
> A couple of things I did note:
> 
> The wires connecting the alarms on your HERMS and HLT PID Controllers have been left out, so your Buzzer is only monitoring your MLT Alarms.
> 
> I would probably use a D.C. Plugpack for power to the Ammeter rather than the hassle of mounting a Transformer and Power Supply. (Actually, I probably wouldn't have bothered with an ammeter at all)
> 
> It may be a good idea to interlock your Heat Exchanger Element with the Pump Run Switch so that you are less likely to boil the HEX, although that might make it difficult to get to temperature the first time..
> 
> By mounting the RCD through the front of your box, you would be able to do away with the Relay and Main Switch (this has the added advantage of allowing you to hit the Test Switch to turn it off each time)
> 
> Oh, and Thankyou. If I hadn't been reading your posts, I wouldn't have known that the price of SSR's had come down so much in the last few years.
> 
> Leigh



Thanks for the pointers Leigh. yeah i was thinking of just using a DC plugpacks from an old phone. The powerpack cost me a whole $6 so it wont be much of a loss. 
With regards to he RCD replacing the switch and relay, that is a good point. When you hit the test switch, is it as good as flicking the on/off switch for turning the rig power off? I dont really get how the test switch works.


Cheers for the valuable feedback dudes,
Mate


----------



## tuckerle71

mateOstojic said:


> With regards to he RCD replacing the switch and relay, that is a good point. When you hit the test switch, is it as good as flicking the on/off switch for turning the rig power off? I dont really get how the test switch works.




Basically, an RCD measures the amount of power going out the Active and compares it to the power coming back on the Neutral. If there is any difference (i.e. going through you, or a bad/wet connection leaking to earth) it trips the switch and disconnects both the Active and Neutral conductors in a fraction of a second reqiuring you to reset the RCD (i.e. turn it back on).

The test switch simulates this and trips the RCD.

Note: If it happens a second time, start unplugging things until it doesn't trip, and then work backwards.

It will be fine to use this as your on/off switch, and you're supposed to test your RCD's every month although nobody ever does...


----------



## raven19

mateOstojic said:


> yeah i will try it with the HLT before i drill holes in the kettle. I might add another 2200 element to the kettle...



MateO - have you considered a 2400W immersion element as part of your brewery. They are very handy, can be used to help boost your HLT temp, kettle temp (getting it up to the boil quicker), etc.

Out of interest for my typical pre boil volume of 31L (for a 22L batch), I use a 3600W and a 2400W element to get things up to the boil, then turn back to just the 3600W to keep a rollling boil.

My kettle is not insulated so adding some insulation would help. Hope this gives you an idea on electric power requirements on the kettle side of things.

(I also have a 100L kettle with 2 x 2400W elements - yes it takes a while to get 80+ L of wort up to the boil, but it does get there eventually!)


----------



## mateostojic

raven19 said:


> MateO - have you considered a 2400W immersion element as part of your brewery. They are very handy, can be used to help boost your HLT temp, kettle temp (getting it up to the boil quicker), etc.



Yeah its funny you should say that because last night i was thinking about possible solutions to my problem and the immersion chiller idea seemed like the best option. Just the fact that it can be used on both the kettle and HLT is a big advantage. 

My only concern now is: would 2200W+2400W be too much for a single batch boil. I suppose the only effect would be that i would just have to compensate for a higher evaporation rate, right?

Mate


----------



## raven19

Once it gets up to the boil, turn one of them off. Easy as! (at least thats what I do :icon_cheers: )


----------



## mateostojic

raven19 said:


> Once it gets up to the boil, turn one of them off. Easy as! (at least thats what I do :icon_cheers: )



Take it that you turn the 2400W off and use the 3600W to keep the boil rolling.

Hmm...i just realised that i referred to the immersion heating element as immersion chiller in my previous post...and i wasnt even drinking. <_< 

Cheers for the advice raven.
:icon_cheers:


----------



## DWC

What has everyone used to bend your HERMS HEX coil?
I scored a 10m roll of air-con 1/2" annealed copper from a mate the other day, 
but, It's fairly stiff to form into a tight (130mm diam) coil to fit into my 8L HEX pot.
I think the rolls from the Big Green Shed etc. are softer copper.
I've tried to wrap it around an esky type drink bottle, and only got about 200mm in
before I put a 90deg bend in it :unsure: 
I need inspiration as I was going to make the HEX while I brew tomorrow.
Cheers

Dave


----------



## Maheel

DWC said:


> What has everyone used to bend your HERMS HEX coil?
> I scored a 10m roll of air-con 1/2" annealed copper from a mate the other day,
> but, It's fairly stiff to form into a tight (130mm diam) coil to fit into my 8L HEX pot.
> I think the rolls from the Big Green Shed etc. are softer copper.
> I've tried to wrap it around an esky type drink bottle, and only got about 200mm in
> before I put a 90deg bend in it :unsure:
> I need inspiration as I was going to make the HEX while I brew tomorrow.
> Cheers
> 
> Dave



you could fill it with salt or fine sugar and then bend it, then soak the fine salt / sugar out (can take a while) 

i have done some coils like that in 1/4 and 3/8 

but you have to make sure they are "full" of salt by tapping them then filling then tapping to they are really full 

some people reckon you can fill with water and freeze the bend it, then defrost (but you need to work fast)

you could also re-aneal it by heating it to cherry red with lpg / oxy / fire / ? to make it as soft as possible


----------



## mxd

Maheel said:


> some people reckon you can fill with water and freeze the bend it, then defrost (but you need to work fast)



I think it's soapy water as the frozen soapy water won't shatter but crumble ?


----------



## raven19

mateOstojic said:


> Take it that you turn the 2400W off and use the 3600W to keep the boil rolling.
> 
> Hmm...i just realised that i referred to the immersion heating element as immersion chiller in my previous post...and i wasnt even drinking. <_<
> 
> Cheers for the advice raven.
> :icon_cheers:



No worries, I tend to stick with the 3600W typically.


----------



## shawnheiderich

Hi all just back into brewing after a bit of a hiatus and need some advice on the HERMS I am trying to get off the ground.

My HX is going to be a 20l Birko urn with copper pipe inside, I have a 18m roll. I plan to fill the urn to about the 18l mark will 9m be enough pipe? The more pipe I assume the slower the flow rate due to pressure in the system. With an exposed element do I need to place a barrier between the pipe and the element?

HX controller is the part I have been thinking of the most, I have read in this thread that a tempmate will do the job does anyone use one? If not what would be the possible drawbacks of using one.

Any thoughts or assistance given would be appreciated.

Thanks

Shawn


----------



## cdbrown

9m of pipe will be fine, most people have about that much. I just use a kettle element in my pot which is exposed - there's no need for a barrier if you keep the coil from touching the element. 18L is a fairly large volume of water so while it will hold the heat it also takes longer to heat up. The tempmate can do the job, but most people go for a PID controller for more responsive and accurate control. A PID is constantly cycling itself on and off to maintain the temp, or to reach a target temp over a specified time. The tempmate will be turning on and off depending on the set points.


----------



## shawnheiderich

Thanks that is what I thought sounded right for the pipe. I guess the tempmate will need to have the set points just right to minimise cycling. I think the larger HX will help with this, thermal mass ect. I know that a pid ssr heat sink would be the ideal solution. But I have just finished reading the post asking which wire goes where to wire a plug to a march pump! So that is well out of my electrical league... I bought a RCD extension cord today and plan to get all wiring checked prior to me plugging it in. 

Thanks

Shawn


----------



## NickB

Tempmate is fine for the HEx, use one on my system. Make sure you set it to .5 differential, and it will cycle fairly frequently, but it works a treat. Have about 5m of copper in my 14L pot, 1600W element from an urn.

Cheers


----------



## shawnheiderich

Thanks Nick B, just what I wanted to hear!

Shawn


----------



## NickB

No worries mate, if you want to see a setup in action at any stage give me a yell and I can have a brew day here at my place in Murarrie if you're keen.

Cheers


----------



## kymba

I'm currently scrounging bits and bobs for a herms unit. For the element I went to crazy clarks and got a $9 jug.

I ripped the element out and the layout of the 3 pins reminded me of the power cord used for a computer...lo-and-behold it fits like a thumb up a bum

how do i test that its going to work, and that i'm not going to blow shit up?


----------



## dmac80

kymba said:


> I'm currently scrounging bits and bobs for a herms unit. For the element I went to crazy clarks and got a $9 jug.
> 
> I ripped the element out and the layout of the 3 pins reminded me of the power cord used for a computer...lo-and-behold it fits like a thumb up a bum
> 
> how do i test that its going to work, and that i'm not going to blow shit up?
> 
> View attachment 47181
> 
> 
> View attachment 47182



Check the resistance between the L and N pins on the element, then plug the cord in and check the resistance between the two angled pins (A and N), with the cord attached it should be less than about 2 ohms greater than the resistance of the element alone.

Cheers 

Edit: I checked mine and the element was 28 ohm, cord from plug to pin was 1 ohm, so 28 + 1 + 1 equals around 30 ohms. I'd make sure your pot is earthed and be very careful as that plug would stick out a fair way and be vulnerable to damage if knocked. Maybe put a junction box over the connections for protection.


----------



## dent

The lower right hand screw attaches the earth from the IEC plug to the element housing - If you wanted you could put an eyelet crimp terminal under the screw so you can wire it to a lug on the metal of your container. Be careful of those fine wires going to the neon lamp, they have full 240 on them. I'd be inclined to put a enclosure over the lot if you plan to attach it to anything permanently.


----------



## kymba

thanks dmac, will do that tonight

i'll be putting the element through the centre of the pot and gunna get an earth point spot welded to it. I'll use another upturned pot as a stand and to protect the electricals. will be using cable glands to make sure nothing can be knocked / yoinked out

and thanks dent...might look at removing the little light all together - there will be plenty of lights and numbers on the control box to keep me entertained anyway



dmac said:


> Check the resistance between the L and N pins on the element, then plug the cord in and check the resistance between the two angled pins (A and N), with the cord attached it should be less than about 2 ohms greater than the resistance of the element alone.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Edit: I checked mine and the element was 28 ohm, cord from plug to pin was 1 ohm, so 28 + 1 + 1 equals around 30 ohms. I'd make sure your pot is earthed and be very careful as that plug would stick out a fair way and be vulnerable to damage if knocked. Maybe put a junction box over the connections for protection.


----------



## NDH

Just regarding the eherms discussion, I had intended on using contactors with my PID outputs. The fact that they are probably only rated for 1000 coil operations had crossed my mind but I have a pretty steady supply to replace them. Where can I find a price for the SSR's? I had assumed they are quite expensive and written off the option but if they are a reasonable price I'd rather use them.

Also looking at using the ramp/soak PID's so I can program the alarm outputs to operate my pump. I've got a schematic at home that I can post if anyone is interested or willing to offer advice.


----------



## hsb

I didn't understand the rest of your post :huh:  but SSRs are cheap:
http://shop.ebay.com.au/?_from=R40&_tr...-All-Categories

Apologies if I've misundersood..


----------



## dmac80

NDH said:


> Just regarding the eherms discussion, I had intended on using contactors with my PID outputs. The fact that they are probably only rated for 1000 coil operations had crossed my mind but I have a pretty steady supply to replace them. Where can I find a price for the SSR's? I had assumed they are quite expensive and written off the option but if they are a reasonable price I'd rather use them.
> 
> Also looking at using the ramp/soak PID's so I can program the alarm outputs to operate my pump. I've got a schematic at home that I can post if anyone is interested or willing to offer advice.



Auber instruments have ssr's from $15 (US $ i'd guess), i haven't checked other suppliers but i'd imagine they might have similar prices.

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...a2935d3f96a7c79

Cheers


----------



## NDH

Sorry, two unrelated points I probably should have been more clear.

Point 1, just looked at your link, I had no idea they were that cheap for such a high current rating. Will definitely be using SSR's. The constant latching sound of a coil would piss me off with a contactor anyway.

Point 2, I have been doing some schematicstrot the control panel that I'm hoping to find some help/confirmation with.

Cheers for your help.


----------



## kymba

i picked up my SSR for $15 delivered from clints components

and i won a RKC REX C100 PID for 99c US (+ $25.99 USD delivery)

stoked both arrived today so i'm gunna be blowing shit up this weekend!


----------



## kymba

I have wired everything up like the attached finger painting...anything wrong with what i have done? 

i wired it similar to this, but they have sent neutral to the SSR - what's the diff?

View attachment BUZZ_BOX.pdf
View attachment PID___c100_another_Manual.pdf


----------



## dent

kymba said:


> I have wired everything up like the attached finger painting...anything wrong with what i have done?
> 
> i wired it similar to this, but they have sent neutral to the SSR - what's the diff?
> 
> View attachment 47454
> View attachment 47455




The diagram you have made is for a PID unit that puts out a DC voltage that controls a SSR directly. The model you have written on the diagram is the relay type unit, so your diagram will not work if that is indeed the unit you have.

If you have a DC controlled SSR you will need another DC supply to get this to work. Or you could use an AC controlled SSR which will allow you to use 240V through the relay output.


----------



## kymba

damn, thanks for pointing that out - goes to show where buying blindly from ebay gets you

one question - will the residual current from a phone charger (or any wall wart converter) have any effect on the SSR? you know like when the LED indicator stays on for a few seconds after you unplug a phone, and especially a laptop



dent said:


> The diagram you have made is for a PID unit that puts out a DC voltage that controls a SSR directly. The model you have written on the diagram is the relay type unit, so your diagram will not work if that is indeed the unit you have.
> 
> If you have a DC controlled SSR you will need another DC supply to get this to work. Or you could use an AC controlled SSR which will allow you to use 240V through the relay output.


----------



## dent

kymba said:


> damn, thanks for pointing that out - goes to show where buying blindly from ebay gets you
> 
> one question - will the residual current from a phone charger (or any wall wart converter) have any effect on the SSR? you know like when the LED indicator stays on for a few seconds after you unplug a phone, and especially a laptop




It would, but you don't hook it up so you are switching the mains to the plugpack. Just have your plug pack on constant power, and put the DC output of the plug pack through the relay contacts of your PID controller.

Looks like just about any DC plugpack would do the job, the input range is pretty broad.


----------



## kymba

cheers dent

as luck would have it i already have a transformer in there to run an old cpu heatsink + fan attached to the SSR


----------



## Tim F

Is there an ideal rate to pass your whole mash volume through the HEX? The research I've seen usually uses a certain flow rate but I'm not clear if this is dependant on system size. Like if you recirc at 5 litres per minute in a 20 litre system should you go for 2.5L/m in a 10 litre? Or is the ideal flow rate just the fastest speed you can pump without it sticking?


----------



## raven19

Comes back to your grain bed depth to a fair degree, along with batch size. As if you pump too fast it may compact the grain bed and result in a stuck sparge.

Its a bit of trail and error based on your system imo.

I find a slower rate on my (RIMS) system is required when the grain bed is deeper in bigger batches.


----------



## mxd

Tim F said:


> Is there an ideal rate to pass your whole mash volume through the HEX? The research I've seen usually uses a certain flow rate but I'm not clear if this is dependant on system size. Like if you recirc at 5 litres per minute in a 20 litre system should you go for 2.5L/m in a 10 litre? Or is the ideal flow rate just the fastest speed you can pump without it sticking?



I go as quick as possible, I haven't had a stuck sparge so it seems fine.


----------



## mobrien

Great thread/ideas/discussion - this has helped me a lot.

So, in the redesign of my post flood brewery, I'm planning to make it a herms capable system, either running that way from the start or as an upgrade down the track - depends on how the $ all pan out.

The main thing I'm trying to work out is:
a) Probe placement points (mainly, do I get thermowells welded into the mash tun or HLT)
B) HEX size (mainly, do I use the HLT as the HEX or have a separate vessel).

I asked these questions over here: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...mp;#entry805625 but have moved the discussion here as it makes a lot more sense.

Having read through this thread at length (all 27 pages) as well as reading a few of my brewing books, I'm still undecided about the design. I want a double batch capable system, so will go with 70 (electric)/70/100 (gas) as I know my previous 50/50/80 always pushed the limit of a 42L into the conical batch. So the vessels I'm happy with, and I can reuse the stand and march pump from the previous brewery (the march pump was stored above the flood level!).

Being a bit (or a lot) of a geek, I've done some quick calculations to look at the ramp time on various configurations for the HEX. All these calculations are based on a 9kg grain bill, 2L deadspace in boiler and mash tun, and a 3L/kg water:grain ratio, with a 10deg C step increase, 4400 watt element (actually 2 x 2200) running at 75% heating efficiency (to account for true inefficiency, heat loss in the lines/vessels and having to also heat the containers). And yes, I have a dedicated 15A circuit for the HLT (which also was above flood level!).

*Scenario 1*
35L mash volume
10L HEX unit (a separate vessel)

Element size	4400	watts (J/sec)
Element efficiency	75	%
HEX volume	10	L
Mash Tun volume	35	L
Step temp rise	10	oC

Time to heat HEX only	2.11 min
Time to heat HEX and Mash tun 9.51 min

*Scenario 2*
35L mash volume
30L HEX unit (a HLT with enough volume to do the sparge)

Element size	4400	watts (J/sec)
Element efficiency	75	%
HEX volume	30	L
Mash Tun volume	35	L
Step temp rise	10	oC

Time to heat HEX only	6.34 min
Time to heat HEX and Mash tun 13.74 min


Between the two scenarios there is only 4m:15sec of heat time difference overall (9.5 v's 13.75; these are decimal times), but the separate HEX vessel does do it in the recommended 10 minutes for a step increase.

If we make the mash a bit thinner, 4.0 L/kg, there is less sparge water required, so a third scenario:

*Scenario 3*
35L mash volume
20L HEX unit (a HLT with enough volume to do the sparge)

Element size	4400	watts (J/sec)
Element efficiency	75	%
HEX volume	20	L
Mash Tun volume	35	L
Step temp rise	10	oC

Time to heat HEX only	4.23	min
Time to heat HEX and Mash tun	11.62	min


Now this is pretty close to the right time.


So after geeking out for that little while, I guess the question now is:

Is the smaller HEX really worth the extra cost/connections/space if you can design a HLT and mash profile that will still run around the specs needed? And, how thin is too thin for the mash? or rephrased, how much of a reduction in sparge will start to create lower efficiencies (due to not washing the grain bed) that start to matter. 

I am now thinking probe placement is much easier (having read all this thread) - thermowell in the HLT for sure, if seperate HEX one here also and another in the mash return line from the HERMS coil. But I'm open to more opinion/suggestions!


Thanks for all opinions and debate!

Matt

P.S. Just for clarity, the way I did the time calculations:

deltaH=m x C x deltaT
m=mass of mash + mass of HEX water in g (assume 1mL = 1g, its not for wort, but it'll do)
C=4.184J/g.oC (assuming pure water, its not for wort, but it'll do)
deltaT = step rise, in this case 10oC

Once delta H is calculated, divide by the adjusted element size (efficiency x size=adjusted size in watts or J/sec) to get the time in seconds; divide by 60 to get time in minutes


----------



## razz

Hey Mobrien. Using a seperate HX to the HLT will most likely give you a more flexible system, but it's just another piece of equipment you have to build/buy. If I had my druthers I would have done that instead of my HLT having a copper coil mounted in it. It should give you faster ramp times and oyu don't have to worry about how hot the water is in the HLT. As far as probe placement goes I only mounted one at the outlet of the HX, all my other temp indicators are dial thermometers. The probe goes back to a PID and thurns the element on/off in my HLT.


----------



## mxd

mobrien said:


> The main thing I'm trying to work out is:
> a) Probe placement points (mainly, do I get thermowells welded into the mash tun or HLT)
> B) HEX size (mainly, do I use the HLT as the HEX or have a separate vessel).



for me, the probe is on the return back to the mlt and a seperate hx.

here's mine, this was my original setup the issue here was Ihad to screw the probe onto the MLT so I went to cam locsk as below.




and some close ups of the temp probe and how it attaches to the MLT.

the return goes in right angles to the probe





you can see the probeso all the return flow goes past the probe





I use the cam lock so I can remove the controller faway from the MLT and frame


----------



## cdbrown

I have a probe in the HLT (it's not fixed, just hangs through the opening in the top) to control the water temp, another at the outlet of the HERMs to control the recirc temp. Have a dial gauge on the HLT and mash tun. Don't really need any more than that as you're not interested in the herms water temp or the kettle as it's purpose is for boiling.

I do doubles in a 50/50/50 - I have to add 10L of water after the boil to bring the vol up to 42L. 

2 elements in a HERMS would be overkill IMO as the limitation is really the recirc rate you can get without a stuck mash as the pump will just suck the grains down onto the false bottom. Increasing the L/kg ratio will help a bit but then there's a greater volume of liquid that needs to be heated. A coarser crush might help avoid this but will most likely need to increase the mash duration.


----------



## mobrien

Thanks for the comments and ideas.

So when it comes down to it, it seems there are two main ways to control/run a herms system.

1. Hex a fair bit higher than target step temp, 10 deg or so controlled by a thermostat, and the flow rate of the pump controlled via probe in the hex outlet to control the temp of the mash tun.
2. Hex the same or 1 deg or so higher than the target step temp, the temp controlled by a probe in the hex, and the temp controlled by a thermostat, the flow rate is constant and the temp of the mash tun is controlled by equalization (with a system fudge factor) between the hex and the mash tun.

If you have a herms system, which method do you use and why?

Regards

Matthew


----------



## Tim F

I could be wrong but I imagine it working as HEX temp = whatever it needs to be so the wort temp at HEX outlet = desired step temp. PID reads temp at HEX outlet and cycles the HEX element appropriately to maintain desired outlet temperature. This is how I'm building mine anyway!


----------



## mxd

Tim F said:


> I could be wrong but I imagine it working as HEX temp = whatever it needs to be so the wort temp at HEX outlet = desired step temp. PID reads temp at HEX outlet and cycles the HEX element appropriately to maintain desired outlet temperature. This is how I'm building mine anyway!




yep, except I measure my wort temp at the MLT return, I set my PID to be my Mash Temp, I have no idea what temp the water in the HX is, I know what my MLT temp is but that's just because it had a thermometer in it before I went HERMS


----------



## cdbrown

mobrien said:


> Thanks for the comments and ideas.
> 
> So when it comes down to it, it seems there are two main ways to control/run a herms system.
> 
> 1. Hex a fair bit higher than target step temp, 10 deg or so controlled by a thermostat, and the flow rate of the pump controlled via probe in the hex outlet to control the temp of the mash tun.
> 2. Hex the same or 1 deg or so higher than the target step temp, the temp controlled by a probe in the hex, and the temp controlled by a thermostat, the flow rate is constant and the temp of the mash tun is controlled by equalization (with a system fudge factor) between the hex and the mash tun.
> 
> If you have a herms system, which method do you use and why?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Matthew



I've not come across any system as you've described. The simplest way is to have the probe at the outlet of the HERMs to measure the wort recirc temp. The probe connected to a temp controller which in turn is connected to the HERMS element. The controller will switch the element on/off to reach the target wort temp. The pump generally recircs the wort at a constant rate, however a compacting grain bed will slow the flow and you will naturally see a higher recirc wort temp due to increased resident time in the HERMS (the controller would have switched off the element). Stirring the grain bed will increase the flow and the temp will drop slightly while the controller tries to catch up to the change in conditions.

Don't worry about the HERMS water temp, just the wort temp coming out of the HERMS.


----------



## mobrien

Hi everyone,

OK - I've got it now, and realised my stupidity - of course you can't raise the mash temp if you don't have a differntial between the HEX and the mash temp... well duh

I've drawn up a not to scale diagram to get my head around all the connections and the way it would work - think I'm somewhere close now.

Any major issues anyone can see? Will do either a 10L HEX unit, with either a 2200W element, or a 20L HEX (with 15L water, i.e. 5L headspace) with a 3600W element. The rest of it is self explanitory I think.

I'm getting excited now - time to stop planning and start rebuilding!

Thanks,

Matt 

View attachment Brewery_V3.pdf


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## cdbrown

Looks good. You can probably ignore the elbows on the pump and just go straight into the T-piece. Also (even though it's just an illustration) you will need to change the connections on the T-piece on the HERMS outlet as the probe won't fit in the small stub. Better off having the probe through the main body, HERMS on the other side and have the recirc line out of the stub


----------



## shawnheiderich

So did my first brew today with my new HERMS rig. Don't have much to add to the current discussion but I will say I did not bother with a thermo in my mash tun just using a probe at the outlet of the HX. I will say that today there was very little difference between the probe and the portable thermo I used to check the mash tun temp. I recirced the entire mash schedule and ramped from 55c to 64c in about ten minutes but it took about 15 minutes to go from 64c to 75 c with my 20l urn (HX) almost boiling to get it there. Was a good day and all went as planned until the end of the boil, but we live and learn...

Shawn


----------



## cdbrown

How much copper did you get into your HX? For the HX to be boiling I'm guessing your flowrate was fairly high meaning the mash wasn't spending enough time in the HERMS to warm up enough. Only way to fix is to choke the flow using the tap (easy) or increase the amount of coils in the HX (hard). A few little things that can help is insulating the hoses in and out of the tun. Also stirring can help distribute the heat a little better.


----------



## shawnheiderich

Yep that's what I thought I had it flowing flat out, 815 march pump and was getting a bit of a whirlpool in the tun! Will slow the rate next brew. I've got about 9m of copper coiled in there. I was not unhappy with the ramp time but I thought that maybe with the flow my mash would get sucked down...all good though. I have some of my hoses insulated and will complete prior to the next brew.

Shawn


----------



## roller997

Are you looking to batch sparge? I would have my HLT directly going to the MLT so that you can feed the MLT with sparge water while going out to the kettle. With your configuration you will need to empty the HLT into the MLT (assuming it is big enough to host the hotliquor and grist) or you would have to batch sparge.

Regards

Roller


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## Tim F

Is there any reason you couldn't have separate cold water inlet and outlet in your HEX and then recirculate through the coil with cold water flowing over it after the boil till you reach pitching temp, then drain to fermenter and pitch?


----------



## mxd

Tim F said:


> Is there any reason you couldn't have separate cold water inlet and outlet in your HEX and then recirculate through the coil with cold water flowing over it after the boil till you reach pitching temp, then drain to fermenter and pitch?




not too sure I understand this one, but are you now thinking of using the HX as a chiller ?


----------



## Tim F

Yeah exactly. use it to heat the wort through mash steps as usual, then boil, then after the boil recirc again but this time pump cool water through the hex until the wort cools to desired temp.


----------



## darrenp

I had the same when I first set up my herms. I had two ball valves one at the top and one at the bottom of the herms pot with nylex hose fittings attached. I ran the mains water through the bottom and let it overflow through the top. This didn't work real well unless I kept draining the entire volume and topping it up while continuing to circulate. I got sick of doing this pretty quick and installed a plate heat exchanger. Couldn't believe the difference and can now cool to fermentation temp with a single pass. This system also allowed me to install a hop back in-line between the kettle and the PHE which has greatly improved my beers in my opinion.

Basicaly I thought it wasn't worth the stuffing around and was happy to outlay the extra dollars for the PHE but that's pretty much the philosophy I've used all along with my set up "a very expensive way to make cheap beer".


----------



## shawnheiderich

Roller not quite sure sure what you mean...

Shawn


----------



## mateostojic

Hi Guys,

I have an SSR question.
I have wired up my control box as per the attached pdf.
My HLT element is run by PID and SSR. I also have a 220V LED indicator light running off the SSR so that i know when the element is on.
What i have found is that when the SSR is not activated, the LED has a mild glow.
I got the multimeter out and saw that there is 24VAC across the output of the SSR when it is not powered.
I went and had a look at the specs of my SSR, as below.

SSR

It says output is 24-380VAC. Does this mean that the SSR is designed to always allow 24VAC trough the output, even when its not powered?

Mate 

View attachment Control_Box_Wiring_Rev_2a.pdf


----------



## dent

mateOstojic said:


> What i have found is that when the SSR is not activated, the LED has a mild glow.



Is the element still in parallel with the LED when you are measuring 24VAC across it?


----------



## mateostojic

Yes it is, i tried with the element both plugged in and unplugged, same result.


----------



## dent

mateOstojic said:


> Yes it is, i tried with the element both plugged in and unplugged, same result.



Pretty odd. That would imply you are putting out 20 odd watts of heat when your SSR is turned off. They normally do leak when they are unloaded - I tested one of mine, it leaks 240V with nothing attached but as soon as you load it up with anything it drops down to zero as you'd expect. 

There can be issues with an SSR not turning off if the impedance of the load you are driving is greater than the source impedance of the leakage, but if your element is attached this obviously won't be the case.


----------



## Bizier

I also have this phenomenon with my setup. I noticed when I attached a rice cooker to test it. The 240v neon(?) lights I have on the draw side of my SSRs AND the 'warm' (neon?) light of the cooker both glow dimly, yet cancel when it is switched to cook (provided there is no control current from the PID).

This lead me to the conclusion that the 'warm' function of my rice cooker is purely a scam.


----------



## matho

SSR uses triacs to control the flow of current, THESE ARE NOT SWITCHES. They can and do allow a small amount of current to flow in the 'off' state, this can cause the presence of 240V at the relays output so please take care.

here is something i found with a quick google search at the bottom right of page 3 explains it more

View attachment z124_127.pdf


cheers matho


----------



## dent

Yeah, expect a 10A SSR to leak approx 10mA when it is turned off, but _if _ Ostojic has his element connected parallel to the LED on the output there should be less than a volt across the LED rather than 24V he is reading. 10mA is enough to make a LED shine but only with the element not connected. 

I don't see how this can happen unless the element is not connected in parallel.


----------



## matho

dent said:


> Yeah, expect a 10A SSR to leak approx 10mA when it is turned off, but _if _ Ostojic has his element connected parallel to the LED on the output there should be less than a volt across the LED rather than 24V he is reading. 10mA is enough to make a LED shine but only with the element not connected.
> 
> I don't see how this can happen unless the element is not connected in parallel.



Very true dent, maybe when Ostojic said he measured across the output of the SSR he was measuring across the SSR and not the load. I looked up the specs on the fotek SSR and it states a max leakage current of 3mA, so to achieve 24v across the SSR 'output' terminals the internal resistance of the SSR in the off state would be about 8K. It's hard to say without testing it for myself.

edit: also maybe the led glows at a very small current which it would have to if its connected across the load 

cheers matho


----------



## Frag_Dog

I am getting close to completing my HERMS setup. One thing I am thinking of doing once I get it running is doing away with the camping mat insulation around my Mash Tun (50L Keg Conversion). Due to my setup, I can't run the Mongolian Burner with the Mash Tun on the stand without the camping mat bubbling and starting to smell.

I figure this will increase the load on my HERMS system, but with batch sparging, it should enable me to get to the boil 15mins earlier.

Does anyone else run an uninsulated Mash Tun with their HERMS? Is it a better idea to change the insulation to that sliver waterheater stuff?


----------



## dent

Frag_Dog said:


> Does anyone else run an uninsulated Mash Tun with their HERMS? Is it a better idea to change the insulation to that sliver waterheater stuff?



Yeah, it runs just fine, your PID controller will just increase the duty cycle to compensate and your maximum temp rise rate will be a little slower.


----------



## matho

matho said:


> Very true dent, maybe when Ostojic said he measured across the output of the SSR he was measuring across the SSR and not the load. I looked up the specs on the fotek SSR and it states a max leakage current of 3mA, so to achieve 24v across the SSR 'output' terminals the internal resistance of the SSR in the off state would be about 8K.


I just want to say this isn't right as it doesn't follow Kirchoff's voltage law, so i don't know whats going on but it doesn't sound right whatever it is 

cheers matho


----------



## mateostojic

matho said:


> Very true dent, maybe when Ostojic said he measured across the output of the SSR he was measuring across the SSR and not the load. I looked up the specs on the fotek SSR and it states a max leakage current of 3mA, so to achieve 24v across the SSR 'output' terminals the internal resistance of the SSR in the off state would be about 8K. It's hard to say without testing it for myself.
> 
> edit: also maybe the led glows at a very small current which it would have to if its connected across the load
> 
> cheers matho



Yes i did measure across the SSR rather than across the load. The SSR makes the connection between the two ends of the live wire. So if I see 24V across the SSR and if the SSR leaks 3mA, then as you say matho the resistance of the SSR is 8000k. I dont really know what to make of this, i read the pdf you posed but i have to say i couldnt understand 95% of it. I think i have to sit down and learn a bit more about his before i post any more questions.

Also, a correction: While i was testing my control box, i didnt actually have the element plugged in, rather my desk lamp, which has a much lower wattage. Sorry for misleading you dent and matho. I am sure that this now makes sense to you guys, however its still over my head. Oh and the element plug and the indicator light are definitely in parallel.

I will try and nut this out now that you guys have pointed me in the right direction.

Thanks for your help.


----------



## mateostojic

Ok so i understand my previous problem, but now i am faced with a new one.

This time its my HERMS heat exchanger, its tripping the RCD in my house.
It seems that the insulation inside the heating element is not working properly, and as a result i get a resistance between the conducting rod inside the element and the casing of the element.
The strange thing is that the resistance reading is between 300k ohms and 1000k ohms, which corresponds to a current of 0.8mA. The current required to trip the RCD is 30mA, correct?

Also i have measured this resistance at least 10 times and i never get the same value, but its always in the 300k - 1000k range. Oh and when i take the reading, the resistance climbs (or falls) until it finally settles on a value (this takes about 10 minutes!)

I am hoping that someone can help me make sense of this. 

Thanks,
Mate


----------



## matho

mateOstojic,

if that resistance was measured with a multimeter then the reading is too low, to measure insulation you need a device called an Insulation resistance tester which puts out a dc voltage at levels of 250v,500v, 1000v. The insulation needs to be tested at 2 times normal voltage and the reading for all wiring must be over 1M ohm (heating elements are allowed to be lower). 

Most immersion heating elements are made up of the sheath , insulating material (magnesium oxide) and resistance wire (nichrome), now magnesium oxide is a great insulating material when dry but not if its wet. Unfortunately magnesium oxide is hydroscopic so even exposure to the atmosphere will cause it to draw in moisture.

what i would do is to check the sheath for any cracks, if that all ok then check the ends (by the look of the photo the one on the right doesn't look that crash hot). Now get a heat source like a blowtorch and start heating up the element from the center and work you way out to both sides, check to see if the resistance has gone up with your multimeter, repeat and see if it goes up more, then seal the ends with heatproof material, i would think silicon sealant would be ok.

cheers matho


----------



## mateostojic

Thanks for that matho,

Just to make sure i understand, are you saying that the multimeter is not appropriate for measuring the resistance between the wire and the sheath? Therefore, the values that i was getting (300k - 1000k ohms) are not correct and are in fact probably lower than that. Therefore the residual current is probably greater than 30mA?

I tried to evaporate some of the moisture out by running the element in water for 15 minutes at a time and measuring the resistance (as per photo). I did this 5 times but the resistance reading was all over the place.

I will try burning it like you say.

Thanks


----------



## matho

mateOstojic said:


> Just to make sure i understand, are you saying that the multimeter is not appropriate for measuring the resistance between the wire and the sheath? Therefore, the values that i was getting (300k - 1000k ohms) are not correct and are in fact probably lower than that. Therefore the residual current is probably greater than 30mA?



thats what i find, the multimeter doesn't have enough oomph to get thru, probably explains why the reading is all over the place. A blowtorch is the way to improve insulation resistance readings on 'pyro' which has the same magnesium oxide in it, so hopefully it helps with the element

cheers matho


----------



## NickB

aka Meggermeter. Puts out 500V or 1000V. As mentioned, used to test insulation resistance.

Cheers


----------



## booargy

mateOstojic said:


> This time its my HERMS heat exchanger, its tripping the RCD in my house.


A stove is not wired with RCD due to nuisance tripping, could be your problem. the element can have a megger reading as low as 10K ohm. Although by the look of it your element could have had the Richard.


----------



## zxhoon

unless my math is really bad tonight that would put your insulation resistance under 1kOhm which is very dangerous, I'd bin it and get a new one, don't use it on a non RCD protected supply, asking to get a belt otherwise...


----------



## NickB

+1, go the safe option for sure. A 240V kick is not much fun, believe me!

Cheers


----------



## booargy

zxhoon and NickB are right. trust the RCD it is telling you the element is rooted and needs replacing.


----------



## mateostojic

booargy said:


> zxhoon and NickB are right. trust the RCD it is telling you the element is rooted and needs replacing.



Yeah i am definitely taking the safe option here. 

Also, i tried heating the element on the gas stove in an attempt to evaporate the moisture but that was a big fail. Ended up burning the insulation and it oozed out one of the ends all black and sticky.

The supplier has been really good and is sending me a new element all the way from Vietnam. 

Thanks for the advice brewers.

Mate


----------



## prongs_386

I had my first brew with my herms yesterday. Some things went well and some things didn't. 

I started off by getting my mash water up to 50 degrees for a protein rest which went well. There ended up being a wide degree difference between the pid and mash tun so I set my pid a bit higher. I then added my grain and the temp leveled out at 50 after a few minutes which was good. After a few more minutes the flow out of my mash tun stopped so I figured it was a stuck mash and started stirring but even with stirring the flow didn't come straight back. Often I would have to stir and then let it settle before the flow would start again. I have a washing machine hose as my grain filter so thought maybe some grains got stuck inside but it just seemed to randomly correct itself. I felt like there was some plumbing mystery of pipe pressures which I don't understand. 

We seemed to get through this problem by luck but ran into another one. I set my pid up to 70 degrees for the mash but the temp sat at 60 so I stirred the mash which then showed 64 but even after setting my pid higher it never got hotter than 65. Is it possible id reached some kind of limit with my hex? 

Any insights would be much appreciated!


----------



## mxd

Prongs said:


> I had my first brew with my herms yesterday. Some things went well and some things didn't.
> 
> I started off by getting my mash water up to 50 degrees for a protein rest which went well. There ended up being a wide degree difference between the pid and mash tun so I set my pid a bit higher. I then added my grain and the temp leveled out at 50 after a few minutes which was good. After a few more minutes the flow out of my mash tun stopped so I figured it was a stuck mash and started stirring but even with stirring the flow didn't come straight back. Often I would have to stir and then let it settle before the flow would start again. I have a washing machine hose as my grain filter so thought maybe some grains got stuck inside but it just seemed to randomly correct itself. I felt like there was some plumbing mystery of pipe pressures which I don't understand.
> 
> We seemed to get through this problem by luck but ran into another one. I set my pid up to 70 degrees for the mash but the temp sat at 60 so I stirred the mash which then showed 64 but even after setting my pid higher it never got hotter than 65. Is it possible id reached some kind of limit with my hex?
> 
> Any insights would be much appreciated!




need more info, pics, description, element size, etc..


----------



## prongs_386

mxd said:


> need more info, pics, description, element size, etc..



OK ill provide some more info. 
The heat exchanger is an 8l pot with 2400watt element. Not sure how much you copper I got in there but my ramp time was a bit less than 2 degrees a minute. 
The temp controller is dei106h and the pump isn't a march but it has the same specs as a 809 march pump but with an extra 1/2foot of head. 
And a couple of pics.


----------



## Tim F

From that pic you have a fair length of hose connecting the HEX to the MT on each end, that might explain a lot of your heat loss? Can you try getting the connections as short as possible? What type of false bottom/manifold are you using in the tun?


----------



## mxd

Prongs said:


> OK ill provide some more info.
> The heat exchanger is an 8l pot with 2400watt element. Not sure how much you copper I got in there but my ramp time was a bit less than 2 degrees a minute.
> The temp controller is dei106h and the pump isn't a march but it has the same specs as a 809 march pump but with an extra 1/2foot of head.
> And a couple of pics.



sorry still more questions, you mention 2 temps, are these readings off the PID or are you looking at a thermometer in the mlt ?

I don't feel there is anything wrong with your HX as such it feels more like a "setup" issue.

I (who is still trying to figure it out) believe the high level theory of HERMS is along the following.


1) Measure you temp of the Mash (that is controlling the PID) where the wort returns to the MLT, don't look at your MLT gauge.
2) Run a loose Mash
3) recirculate quickly (to get the Mash to temp)


----------



## prongs_386

mxd said:


> sorry still more questions, you mention 2 temps, are these readings off the PID or are you looking at a thermometer in the mlt ?
> 
> I don't feel there is anything wrong with your HX as such it feels more like a "setup" issue.
> 
> I (who is still trying to figure it out) believe the high level theory of HERMS is along the following.
> 
> 
> 1) Measure you temp of the Mash (that is controlling the PID) where the wort returns to the MLT, don't look at your MLT gauge.
> 2) Run a loose Mash
> 3) recirculate quickly (to get the Mash to temp)



Thanks for the reply.

I was talking about a temp gauge in the mash tun which does sit in the opposite corner to where the return is. So if the temp out of the hex is say 70 I can say that my mash was at 70? Even though the temperature throughout the mash tun was 65.

How do I run a loose mash without stirring a lot? Maybe my understanding of that term is incorrect.


----------



## mxd

Prongs said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> I was talking about a temp gauge in the mash tun which does sit in the opposite corner to where the return is. So if the temp out of the hex is say 70 I can say that my mash was at 70? Even though the temperature throughout the mash tun was 65.
> 
> How do I run a loose mash without stirring a lot? Maybe my understanding of that term is incorrect.



what do you use for you false bottom ?

For a loose mash you could do a 3 to 3.5 ltr to kg ratio, you could add some rice hulls.

for me, the wort return is at the top of the tun, I have a "pipe" that I ensure is in the fluid (and bouncing off the side of the tun) to try and avoid channeling. If I wat to mash at 65 I set the pid at 65 and recirc as quick as possable, the MLT thermometer is probably 2 degrees lower but I try to ignore that 


I think the theory is if your recirculating at 65 degrees at some stage it will be at 65 degrees.

I only stir at Mash in, the "fill" the tun via the "out" valve (this helps to loosing up the grist on the false bottom and gets a quick flow going).

The following you can see where I measure the temp.



And this is what the PID sesor connector looks like.




For your return you could look at doing a sparge arm, would should minimize the risk of channeling.


----------



## hsb

I think the theory is that out of the H/Ex is going to be the warmest part of the system, so measure here. Wort comes in at say 66C, it might drop slightly but by constantly recirculating, every part of the mash will be 66C. I found my dial thermo in the body of the mash quickly settling at 66C also. If liquid is regularly cycling through the H/Ex, you can be sure it is hitting 66C. 

For my setup, 4:1 seems to be about perfect for the ratio, very loose by more traditional Cooler MLT standards but works for me. My return is just some coiled silicone tube sitting on top, no way is any grain missing out on a nice warm bath. my probe is at the MLT return in a T piece, as above.

Does everyone recirculate for the full mash, or pause and restart throughout? I've been recirculating for 90 minutes but wondering if I really need to?


----------



## mxd

hsb said:


> Does everyone recirculate for the full mash, or pause and restart throughout? I've been recirculating for 90 minutes but wondering if I really need to?



constant re-circ for me (only do 60 min mash), I've seen others only recirc when heating is required


----------



## cdbrown

Always make sure there is water in the HERMS before turning it on. Made the mistake last night when I attempted to pre-heat the HERMS before pumping my strike water. Anyway the element is cracked and doesn't work but thankfully it was just a cheapy from Big W and will easy to replace. Had to do a decoction on the mash to bring it up to mash temp.


----------



## Crusty

hsb said:


> I think the theory is that out of the H/Ex is going to be the warmest part of the system, so measure here. Wort comes in at say 66C, it might drop slightly but by constantly recirculating, every part of the mash will be 66C. I found my dial thermo in the body of the mash quickly settling at 66C also. If liquid is regularly cycling through the H/Ex, you can be sure it is hitting 66C.
> 
> For my setup, 4:1 seems to be about perfect for the ratio, very loose by more traditional Cooler MLT standards but works for me. My return is just some coiled silicone tube sitting on top, no way is any grain missing out on a nice warm bath. my probe is at the MLT return in a T piece, as above.
> 
> Does everyone recirculate for the full mash, or pause and restart throughout? I've been recirculating for 90 minutes but wondering if I really need to?



Recirculate for the full mash time.
3.75l/kg is what I am aiming for with the Rims.
I want to ensure a loose mash & avoid a stuck sparge at all costs.
I will be recirculating for at least a few minutes through the Rims tube before firing the element.


----------



## hsb

Thanks crusty, I got some feedback via PM as well (thanks Mike)
Dead set on continuous recirculation, cheers.

With my comment above about my mash return being just coiled silicone tube. 
I did a double run over the weekend and noticed there probably is some channeling happening where the tubing rests on the mash bed.
When the mash is drained, it's very indented under the tubing, probably need some tweaking.

Tried calculating brewhouse efficiency using an online calculator, came out at 5452265.62%!!! 8|
http://brew.messerschmidt.com.au/admin/tools/efficiency.php

witbier
5.2kg grain bill
38L pre-boil
1035 pre-boil

1042 post-boil


----------



## prongs_386

Prongs said:


> I had my first brew with my herms yesterday. Some things went well and some things didn't.
> 
> I started off by getting my mash water up to 50 degrees for a protein rest which went well. There ended up being a wide degree difference between the pid and mash tun so I set my pid a bit higher. I then added my grain and the temp leveled out at 50 after a few minutes which was good. After a few more minutes the flow out of my mash tun stopped so I figured it was a stuck mash and started stirring but even with stirring the flow didn't come straight back. Often I would have to stir and then let it settle before the flow would start again. I have a washing machine hose as my grain filter so thought maybe some grains got stuck inside but it just seemed to randomly correct itself. I felt like there was some plumbing mystery of pipe pressures which I don't understand.
> 
> We seemed to get through this problem by luck but ran into another one. I set my pid up to 70 degrees for the mash but the temp sat at 60 so I stirred the mash which then showed 64 but even after setting my pid higher it never got hotter than 65. Is it possible id reached some kind of limit with my hex?
> 
> Any insights would be much appreciated!



Thanks to everyone that helped me with my problems.

I did another brew yesterday and discovered that when I squeezed the metal braid in my mash tun that I use as the grain filter, it started bubbling so air was obviously getting trapped in there. So I guess the braid closes off too much and the water can't always flow through. I had a perfect flow yesterday up to the point where I started sparging and decided to give it a thorough stir. I think I might try and put together a copper manifold to stop this from happening. What is everyone else using in the bottom of their mash tun?


----------



## scooter_59

I use a copper manifold . Try inserting a coil of wire into your braid to stop it from collapsing . This maybe the quick fix .


Cheers
Leachim


----------



## Tim F

ya know one of the great things about a herms is you can use it to heat up bath water for the kids if the hot water runs out! Thereby proving to the missus it wasn't a total waste of time and money.


----------



## kymba

ok so i figured out my control box issues - i was putting the relay trigger wires into the wrong terminals on the PID. had one of those 'duh' moments when i looked a bit harder at the diagram on the side of the PID




and here is my updated wiring diagram View attachment BUZZ_BOX_v3.pdf


----------



## stew.w

ive finally got around to working on my RIMS set up on the weekend. so far all ive done is test runs with water, seems to raise the temp at a reasonable rate (havnt measured it though). 
at the moment it is just using 2 carel controllers with contactors switching the load (one HLT and one MLT) the one on the HLT seems to be ok for its purpose but the one running the rims overshoots by a fair bit. are most people running a RIMS set up using a PID and SSR? 
i havnt got around to putting any heat transfer paste in the thermowells which wouldnt be helping either.
would it be worth changing the carel controller for a PID? the carel controllers were something i already had.
the conrollers probe is in the outlet of the RIMS tube
still got a little bit of work to do on it, but its almost there.

heres a couple of pics:






Cheers,

Stewart


----------



## stew.w

never mind, just found ravens build thread which pretty much answered all my Q's.
PID and SSR it is.


----------



## raven19

That control panel and wiring is just so neat! Makes mine look terrible!

Great build so far.

Edit - glad the thread was helpful.


----------



## stew.w

yeah its getting there, have to change it again when i get the PID. most of it is actually silicone coated wire and its heaps easier to use than the normal stuff in regards to keeping it neat.
is your PID similar to this:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DIN-Digital-PID...a#ht_5234wt_952
if its is are you happy with it?
thanks in advance and for the great build thread.

Cheers,

Stewart


----------



## raven19

I am by no means an expert on PID's however that one looks fine as it supports "multi sensor input (K,S,Wre,T,E,J,B,N,CU50,PT100)".

I used a PT100 RTD probe with my RIMS. And I purchased a similar cheapish PID on evilbay too.

I am very happy with it yes. Did one auto tune batch and have hardly touched it since.[/font]


----------



## stew.w

did you end up having to get a heat sink for your SSR?


----------



## Tim F

I put a heatsink on mine, I ran it without but found it got quite hot. Be aware that pid only switches control current to your relay, it doesn't have control current output built in unless you hack it.


----------



## stew.w

yeah im using the SSR to switch the load, it'll just replace the contactor in my control box (above) and rewire it to the PID for DC control


----------



## Tim F

What i'm saying is that pid doesn't have dc out to switch the ssr - just a relay to switch an external dc source. You can get around it by using a phone charger or something to give you dc to be switched by the pid or you can modify the pid.


----------



## stew.w

from the pictures and the description it looks like it does though, in the middle of the page description on ebay where it has MODEL NUMBER LEGEND and then D1S-2R-220, to me that just looks like a general example of how the model numbers work whereas in the picture it says on the label D1S-VR-220 which would mean one alarm and one SSR output. i hope, will confirm

cheers,

Stewart


----------



## Tim F

Let us know what you find out, it would be good to know if that one does have dc out to run the SSR directly if I buy another at some point.


----------



## raven19

Stew.W said:


> did you end up having to get a heat sink for your SSR?



Yes I did, but the SSR is about 40A rated compared to the 10A I am putting through it - so it does not seem to get that warm even in the middle of summer when brewing. I don't have any air circulation holes in my control panel either.


----------



## stew.w

alright, i bought one anyway as they're only $5 but my SSR is only 25A so maybe it'll get a bit warmer than yours would, garage gets pretty hot in summer too.

Tim F - checked about the PID and the one i bought is the model for SSR control (D1S-VR-220) from what ive read on homebrewtalk about it its just a knock off of the auber ones:
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...p;products_id=3
and you can use the auber instructions as they've been written in english rather than being translated from chinese.

Cheers,

Stewart


----------



## kymba

tonight i finally got around to lagging my HX pot with the insulation i bought 4 months ago. i fired her up to see if everything is working ok befere letting it near grain

i set it to 90 degrees and it heated about 6 litres of water in about 10 minutes (at a guess), however when it got to 90 it turned off and the temp kept rising to 93. this is obviously from the lag between heating the thermowell and the metal tipped probe inside

i plan to get some thermal paste to squirt down into the well which should increase response time

so my questions are - do i run the autotune on the PID to get it to slow down when it is nearing the SV? is that how these PIDs are supposed to work? and do i need to autotune whenever i change the SV?

PID is a chinese REX-C100


----------



## Phoney

Now that I've got a bit more space, I'm seriously considering upgrading the 'ol 40L urn BIAB system into a 3V HERMS.

I'm sourcing 2 x 50L SS pots as we speak...

I currently have:

40L electric urn
mashmaster temp controller (heating) with SS probe
March pump
Minimal welding skills and absolutely no electrical skills, which after seeing everybody elses makes me a little nervous.

What are my chances of succeeding in this project?


----------



## raven19

phoneyhuh said:


> Minimal welding skills and absolutely no electrical skills, which after seeing everybody elses makes me a little nervous.
> 
> What are my chances of succeeding in this project?



Chances are excellent. Some super build threads on this forum along with many other forums on the net.

I knew sfa about wiring, etc prior to my first rig build. Get a suitably qualified electrician to check over your wiring, and you will be fine.

Good luck with the transition.

I am sure there will some other handy brewers nearby able to help you for various components too.


----------



## mr_tyreman

Can i be a PITA for a sec, im just pulling my hair out over valve placement... either up at the vessels or down by the pump.

its just a single teir system with the pump just below.

i would like to put the valves down by the pumps, im worried about the liquids just resting in the lines between the kettle and the valve...or am i just being stupid here?

sorry for butting in h34r: 

P.S i tried a search but with such a slow internet connection today...well you get the idea


----------



## hsb

You'd want a valve directly after the pump, so you can throttle flow through the pump/prime it.

You'd need also valves on the outlet from your vessels to stop the liquid flowing out?! :wacko: 
Not much point putting the kettle out valve down by the pump - it serves the same purpose attached to the kettle and keeps everything inside until you're ready.

Are you hard plumbing things? Or using tubing/disconnects? Flexibility is great with the latter, you can always change it if you're not happy.

I'm sure others will have different setups, it really depends what you're trying to achieve. I have mine all on one level (the kettle) with the exception of the pump out but it's not mandatory to have it that way.

*edit - I should add that although you'd definitely (imo) want valves directly out of the vessels, many also have quite a few valves down on the pump level to redirect flow depending on what you are doing. More of a hard plumbing setup. Try uploading a diagram of your intended setup and someone can make suggestions on valve locations.


----------



## mr_tyreman

Great info mate, i opted for 'at the pump' option, i assembled everything but i realised i have some leakage issues around a few fittings and i need advice on an appropriate thread sealer, i searched and found a thread on using aquarium sealer and i emailed loctite and they reccomended loctite 577...but at $107 for a 250 ml tube im a little more inclined to seek an alternative option, a few threads mention just regular teflon tape, this seems logical as teflon is widely used as the seal in many ball valves, i have permatex thread seler and loctite 567 on hand.

what do you guys use as a thread sealer?


----------



## hsb

I find the pink "plumber's tape" you can find at most hardware stores does the trick. 
It's thicker than the cheap white teflon stuff, a few turns of that and you should get a good seal. It might take one run of heating everything up for the seals to really lock tight.

Good luck, get it making beer and post some pics of your setup :icon_cheers:


----------



## stew.w

just use teflon, i wouldnt use a thread sealant as it might leach into your brew.


----------



## mr_tyreman

great, thanks boys... its almost ready for pictures


----------



## srcossens

How many people run an over the side immersion heater through a PID on 10A? The reason I ask is that the PID runs at 5W and the heater element runs at 2400W, therefore going slightly over 10A/2400W.

I'm trying to configure my Herms electronics box and am looking at having one PID and a 2400W element run off one plug and then another plug running another PID (5W), 2 pumps (107W each) and a 2200W element. The power going through each of these is then 2405W (10.02A) and 2419W (10.08A) respectively if everything runs at the same time. I'm going to get an electrician to check it out once I've got all the bits together, but was just wondering if the slight bit of extra amperage will get it knocked back?

I'm wanting to keep it with in normal domestic plugs as I'm currently renting.


----------



## tuckerle71

ScottC said:


> How many people run an over the side immersion heater through a PID on 10A? The reason I ask is that the PID runs at 5W and the heater element runs at 2400W, therefore going slightly over 10A/2400W.
> 
> I'm trying to configure my Herms electronics box and am looking at having one PID and a 2400W element run off one plug and then another plug running another PID (5W), 2 pumps (107W each) and a 2200W element. The power going through each of these is then 2405W (10.02A) and 2419W (10.08A) respectively if everything runs at the same time. I'm going to get an electrician to check it out once I've got all the bits together, but was just wondering if the slight bit of extra amperage will get it knocked back?
> 
> I'm wanting to keep it with in normal domestic plugs as I'm currently renting.



G'day Scott,
Slightly over 10 amps isn't so much of a problem. Theoretically, you could plug two ten amp heaters into the same double outlet. It isnt a good idea though, unless you are trying to trip the breaker or blow a fuse. Your circuit breaker is probably 16 amps which means that you would have to plug the two leads into two separate circuits. At best, if you have a 20 amp breaker, you would be running borderline and anything else on the circuit may be enough to trip the breaker at an inconvenient time. 
Also, It is rare for a 2400 watt element to draw exactly 10 amps. If your place is close to a transformer on the street, your voltage may be higher than 240, alternately, if you are far from the transformer your voltage may be down around 220 volts which would give you around 9.2 amps ( a little over 2000 watts.) the only way to be sure is to build it and measure the current.
Another thing to consider is that most flex is light duty and may start to get warm if you try to draw 10 amps for long periods of time. 
I hope this helps


----------



## srcossens

MrTucker said:


> G'day Scott,
> Slightly over 10 amps isn't so much of a problem. Theoretically, you could plug two ten amp heaters into the same double outlet. It isnt a good idea though, unless you are trying to trip the breaker or blow a fuse. Your circuit breaker is probably 16 amps which means that you would have to plug the two leads into two separate circuits. At best, if you have a 20 amp breaker, you would be running borderline and anything else on the circuit may be enough to trip the breaker at an inconvenient time.
> Also, It is rare for a 2400 watt element to draw exactly 10 amps. If your place is close to a transformer on the street, your voltage may be higher than 240, alternately, if you are far from the transformer your voltage may be down around 220 volts which would give you around 9.2 amps ( a little over 2000 watts.) the only way to be sure is to build it and measure the current.
> Another thing to consider is that most flex is light duty and may start to get warm if you try to draw 10 amps for long periods of time.
> I hope this helps



Thank you Mr Tucker, it is a big help. 

I know what you mean when you say that the flex gets warm after drawing 10A for a while, I used to use a 2400W element and noticed the difference with the extension cord on cold and warm days. I was looking at using wires rated to higher than 10A as down the track I will possibly upgrade to all electric. At the moment, it's part gas to keep within 10A and be able to brew 40-70 litres efficiently.


----------



## NDH

Hi all,


Currently in the build process of my herms setup (pictured below), utilising some 3-way valves to minimise hose movement, PID herms/HLT and gas kettle. Quick couple of questions as I am starting to wire up the control panel and finalise plumbing







I want to preheat the HX ready to start re circ after mash in, how do I ensure the HX is up to mash temp when my probe is theoretically on the outlet of the HX(dry) in the worth return fitting? I'm sure I'm overlooking the obvious but I'm stumped!

I am currently at the BIAB/No Chill stage but have bought a plate chiller for the new 3V, I understand crash chilling has a substantial effect on hop flavour but how effective is whirlpooling on removing hop debris? Is it worth the extra fittings/pumping? I was considering making a removable flase bottom/screen to contain the debris before the risk of entering the plate chiller.

a bit off topic but I don't use a hop sock with my BIAB creations and get a particularly earthy flavour from most late hop additions. I am yet to decide whether this is due to the No Chill or the fact I get a bit of hop matter into the cube/fermentor. It is also possible I don't wait long enough after flame out to cube, usually about 10 minutes after flame out with a bit of a mash paddle whirl. Without knowing the root cause of this I can't make a particularly educated decision on kettle design.


----------



## alfadog

NDH said:


> Hi all,
> 
> 
> Currently in the build process of my herms setup (pictured below), utilising some 3-way valves to minimise hose movement, PID herms/HLT and gas kettle. Quick couple of questions as I am starting to wire up the control panel and finalise plumbing
> 
> 
> View attachment 50356
> 
> 
> 
> I want to preheat the HX ready to start re circ after mash in, how do I ensure the HX is up to mash temp when my probe is theoretically on the outlet of the HX(dry) in the worth return fitting? I'm sure I'm overlooking the obvious but I'm stumped!
> 
> I am currently at the BIAB/No Chill stage but have bought a plate chiller for the new 3V, I understand crash chilling has a substantial effect on hop flavour but how effective is whirlpooling on removing hop debris? Is it worth the extra fittings/pumping? I was considering making a removable flase bottom/screen to contain the debris before the risk of entering the plate chiller.
> 
> a bit off topic but I don't use a hop sock with my BIAB creations and get a particularly earthy flavour from most late hop additions. I am yet to decide whether this is due to the No Chill or the fact I get a bit of hop matter into the cube/fermentor. It is also possible I don't wait long enough after flame out to cube, usually about 10 minutes after flame out with a bit of a mash paddle whirl. Without knowing the root cause of this I can't make a particularly educated decision on kettle design.



I am not sure on your temperature probe setting but I use an inline filter (from a boating supply place) https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdeta...tAbsolutePage=1 it is food grade and clear so you can see if it is clogged.


----------



## fcmcg

NDH said:


> Hi all,
> 
> 
> Currently in the build process of my herms setup (pictured below), utilising some 3-way valves to minimise hose movement, PID herms/HLT and gas kettle. Quick couple of questions as I am starting to wire up the control panel and finalise plumbing
> 
> 
> View attachment 50356
> 
> 
> 
> I want to preheat the HX ready to start re circ after mash in, how do I ensure the HX is up to mash temp when my probe is theoretically on the outlet of the HX(dry) in the worth return fitting? I'm sure I'm overlooking the obvious but I'm stumped!
> 
> I am currently at the BIAB/No Chill stage but have bought a plate chiller for the new 3V, I understand crash chilling has a substantial effect on hop flavour but how effective is whirlpooling on removing hop debris? Is it worth the extra fittings/pumping? I was considering making a removable flase bottom/screen to contain the debris before the risk of entering the plate chiller.
> 
> a bit off topic but I don't use a hop sock with my BIAB creations and get a particularly earthy flavour from most late hop additions. I am yet to decide whether this is due to the No Chill or the fact I get a bit of hop matter into the cube/fermentor. It is also possible I don't wait long enough after flame out to cube, usually about 10 minutes after flame out with a bit of a mash paddle whirl. Without knowing the root cause of this I can't make a particularly educated decision on kettle design.


I plug the desired HX number into my PID and then dangle the probe in my separate hx water , untill I'm ready to start re-circulating...then i connect up the probe and start the pump...seems to work for me...
Whirlpooling is good at removing alot of debris...just remember though ,with your plate chiller , you will get cold break into your fermentor...so there is still debris in there...i love mine however...just make sure that you back flush it for at least 10 mins to clear any crud/hop debris that tends to stick like shit to the proverbial...
Um...Kettle design ? I use to 50 litre kegs that have been welded together...and i do what you do...let it sit for 10 at flame out , after stirring the shite outta it...and then no chill...not really getting a particularly earthy flavour...
Anyway...this is what i do...
Cheers
F


----------



## hsb

NDH said:


> I want to preheat the HX ready to start re circ after mash in, how do I ensure the HX is up to mash temp when my probe is theoretically on the outlet of the HX(dry) in the worth return fitting? I'm sure I'm overlooking the obvious but I'm stumped!



My HX is small, a custom vessel, rather than sat inside my HLT or a converted keg.
I can get away with preheating strike water in HLT to roughly right, then I transfer to Mash Tun, and begin recirculation using HX to get it up to Strike temperature. (no grain at this point, just liquor)
I can then stop recirculation (HX goes off), dough in, and restart recirculation and HX and my temperatures are smooth, the HX being preheated but able to drop enough not to overshoot strike targets.
This lets me preheat the Mash Tun, the HX, and everything in between, prior to dough in.

If your HX is larger (is it in the half keg under the bench?) you could just switch in on _X_ number of minutes before dough in - _X_ being the sweet spot that gets it warmed up but not too warm, that you'll need to figure out once you get to know your new setup (nice job btw.)

I have three options on my HX - 'On' - element is just on, no control. 'Off' - completely off and 'Auto' - uses PID (a BCS-460 in my case but same deal.)
So long as you have that 'Always On' option on your element, you can just switch it on early.

My HX





re: Whirlpooling. I have a screen on my kettle outlet. Some use a S/S scrubbie jammed on there instead. In combo with whirlpooling, I'm very happy with what ends up in the cube, no hops from the boil. Whirlpooling for 5 minutes makes a nice big cone of trub at the base of kettle.
My screen works better with Hop flowers/plugs, though it still works with pellets.

Kettle:


----------



## mxd

ScottC said:


> How many people run an over the side immersion heater through a PID on 10A? The reason I ask is that the PID runs at 5W and the heater element runs at 2400W, therefore going slightly over 10A/2400W.
> 
> I'm trying to configure my Herms electronics box and am looking at having one PID and a 2400W element run off one plug and then another plug running another PID (5W), 2 pumps (107W each) and a 2200W element. The power going through each of these is then 2405W (10.02A) and 2419W (10.08A) respectively if everything runs at the same time. I'm going to get an electrician to check it out once I've got all the bits together, but was just wondering if the slight bit of extra amperage will get it knocked back?
> 
> I'm wanting to keep it with in normal domestic plugs as I'm currently renting.



I wouldn't run my heater directly to the PID, go from PID to SSR that is rated to 20+ amps


going just over 10 amps will be fine, most of the wire in the house iw rated to 16 amp and your fuse box is possibly 15 amp.


----------



## mxd

NDH said:


> Hi all,
> 
> 
> Currently in the build process of my herms setup (pictured below), utilising some 3-way valves to minimise hose movement, PID herms/HLT and gas kettle. Quick couple of questions as I am starting to wire up the control panel and finalise plumbing
> 
> 
> View attachment 50356
> 
> 
> 
> I want to preheat the HX ready to start re circ after mash in, how do I ensure the HX is up to mash temp when my probe is theoretically on the outlet of the HX(dry) in the worth return fitting? I'm sure I'm overlooking the obvious but I'm stumped!
> 
> I am currently at the BIAB/No Chill stage but have bought a plate chiller for the new 3V, I understand crash chilling has a substantial effect on hop flavour but how effective is whirlpooling on removing hop debris? Is it worth the extra fittings/pumping? I was considering making a removable flase bottom/screen to contain the debris before the risk of entering the plate chiller.
> 
> a bit off topic but I don't use a hop sock with my BIAB creations and get a particularly earthy flavour from most late hop additions. I am yet to decide whether this is due to the No Chill or the fact I get a bit of hop matter into the cube/fermentor. It is also possible I don't wait long enough after flame out to cube, usually about 10 minutes after flame out with a bit of a mash paddle whirl. Without knowing the root cause of this I can't make a particularly educated decision on kettle design.



what I do is fill HX, then put water in MLT, start recirc and HERMS with my temp set to Mash temp + 2-3 degrees, when it's at temp, I drop the PID back to mash temp and dough in. I don't turn the re-circ off. Whilst this is happening I'm heating my HLT to mash temp or mash out.

After dough in, I add more water in, from HLT to MLT through the outlet (i.e though the false bottom), this helps clear out the false bottom and keep a strong flow occurring.


----------



## NDH

Thanks for the replies guys,

The HX is going to be inside a little keg (under the bench in the photo), I'm going to sleeve in a 10lt pot and foam-o-fill around it to insulate really well. Also makes it look a bit better because all the vessels look like kegs!

I think I will chuck a whrilpool inlet halfway up the kettle and recirc from the kettle inlet with the pump, let it go for 5-10 then open the valve to the plate chiller. Was looking at the beerbelly hop screens, I've never had a trub cone look like that before hsb, obviously it doesn't obstruct the whirlpool too much.

Next thing is figuring out a neat wort return, I'm thinking of bending up a stainless ring, drilling some holes in it, and sitting it on the grainbed. Does it need to be suspended or is it fine just sitting on there, any suggestions on where to aim the holes?

Cheers

NDH


----------



## hsb

NDH said:


> Was looking at the beerbelly hop screens, I've never had a trub cone look like that before hsb, obviously it doesn't obstruct the whirlpool too much.


That picture is from a witbier, so the white in the hops/floaty orange bits are just dried orange peel residue. Normally get a nice mound of hops that holds stable until it collapses at the very end of drain to cube.
That is purely from a 5 minute manual whirlpool with a big wooden spoon, I don't recirc in the kettle.

Be interested in your solution to Mash return. I've used a piece of silicon tubing just resting on grain bed but have recently started to worry about channelling/looking at alternatives. I could just put holes in the tubing, to mimic your classic copper fly sparge style return. Or I've also considered using a big copper showerhead.

Resting a metal ring on the grain bed sounds fine. No different to others using saucers or tubing or custom built ones with a saucer collecting from tubing. You could just have a length of silicon tubing to allow for adjusting height, then the ring. You'd want the holes in the ring pointing away from the grain bed, angled in and out at enough of a degree so as not to just fire straight through the grain.

I've yet to see a solution that really inspired me personally.


----------



## mxd

NDH said:


> Next thing is figuring out a neat wort return, I'm thinking of bending up a stainless ring, drilling some holes in it, and sitting it on the grainbed. Does it need to be suspended or is it fine just sitting on there, any suggestions on where to aim the holes?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> NDH




the wort return into the MLT from HX, I think should be in the wort and dispersed so it doesn't cause channelling. 

I have mine coming in the top through a nipple then into a copper pipe that I aim on the side HLT so hopefully to minimize channelling


----------



## NDH

I'm still trying to fins something I'm happy with, ideally I was going to put 3 hooks/tabs to hold the ring at various heights and TIG them to the inside of the MLT then make the ring sit on/in the hooks/tabs. Still at the design development stage when I canned the idea because I can see myself breaking one bellow the grain bed while mashing in. I've got a bit of time till I need a solution so keep brainstorming I guess.


----------



## Frag_Dog

I've just finished the last of the plumbing and wiring for my HERMS with PID. I am using the Auber SYL-2352P (with Ramp and Soak). I am having a bit of trouble understanding the config of the unit. I was hoping that somone who has a better understanding of these could help out.

I have it configured for my RTD Sensor, and it is displaying the correct temp, so its not an issue with that. The Step functions are where I'm hitting a wall.

Can someone tell me their config and what it all means. I've read the manual a few times, but it would be easier to understand in brewer-speak...


----------



## kymba

are the results from running the autotune on a PID readable somewhere?

reason for asking is that i often do different size batches all the time, so it obviously takes longer to heat the strike water for a triple batch BIAB than it does a 10L batch - and also there would be a big difference in the heat / power required to maintain the correct mash temp...this leads me to believe there will be different values applied to the PID algorithm to reach the set temp (massive assumption on my behalf)

do i have to autotune every time i change batches or can i do it once then look up the results somewhere? this would mean i could just keep a log of the different size batches and just plug the values in at the start of the day

edit: left out words


----------



## bonj

kymba said:


> are the results from running the autotune on a PID readable somewhere?
> 
> reason for asking is that i different size batches all the time, so it obviously takes longer to heat the strike water for a triple batch BIAB than it does a 10L batch - and also there would be a big difference in the maintain the correct mash temp...this leads me to believe there will be different values applied to the PID algorithm to reach the set temp (massive assumption on my behalf)
> 
> do i have to autotune every time i change batches or can i do it once then look up the results somewhere? this would mean i could just keep a log of the different size batches and just plug the values in at the start of the day


From my understanding of PID, you do have different initial tuning values for each parameter with a different batch size. For one thing, with the same heat source, the larger batch will respond differently to the application of _a fixed amount of_ heat.

For an interesting read on tuning PIDs, check out this article: http://igor.chudov.com/manuals/Servo-Tunin...thout-a-PhD.pdf

_edit in italics_


----------



## kymba

ok thanks Bonj. i'll keep note of each band's setting with the different batch sizes from now on

and thx for the link...could take me a few days to get through that


----------



## raven19

The PID I run on my (RIMS) system does not overshoot with my batch size - even if I change my batch size. Typvial for me is 23L, but have done 10 - 40L with the same settings and all ok.

I would set it for your typical batch size then just use those PID settings for all brews. The grain helps buffer the temperature compared to just testing the PID with water only.


----------



## stew.w

finally got my RIMS set up going this week and did my first batch on it today. brew went great, probably need to tune my PID a bit better as it overshot a couple of times, but apart from that everything else works. did have one problem with an air lock in the silicone tube where it loops up to go back to mash but that shouldnt be too hard to sort out. heres a couple of pics now that ive finally finished (for now).









Cheers,

Stewart


----------



## raven19

Awesome Stew, whack it in this thread though mate!

RIMS thread

(RIMS ftw!)

Love the boxing kangaroo and aussie flag background.

What was the HLT in a former life?


----------



## stew.w

pretty sure it was a flour bin from a bakery. makes a good HLT and is pretty thick SS too


----------



## vykuza

I'm finishing the process of putting together a HERMS system, and I have one question that I can't find a straightforward answer to. 

I've wound my soft annealed copper for my heat exchange, but the gaps between the winds are too big. It's like an uncompressed spring, but I really want it to be tighter (to reduce the amount of water I need in my HLT/HX). Does anyone have a way of compressing that spring with something boil-safe? I was thinking some copper wire and weaving it between the coils to keep it tight. I'm also planning on using it as a chilling coil, so I'd love a solution that I can keep sanitary and might survive boiling wort.

Anyone got any ideas? I'll take some photos when I get home if my description isn't clear.


----------



## Frag_Dog

I have a somewhat simmilar issue with my Immersion Chiller. I want to slightly space the coils and hold it all straight (it leans slightly). I'm thinking this might help:

http://www.bcf.com.au/online-store/product...aspx?pid=110620

I'm thinking I'll do 2-3 runs of it in a figure-8 pattern spaced around the cooler...


----------



## NickB

Don't worry too much! If your coils are hard together, it would reduce your surface area.

I only have around 3m in my HERMs Hex, and still ramp at around 1C/min.

Just give it a go. If you're really worried, get some copper wire and just string it around everything, then tighten it up.

Cheers


----------



## fcmcg

NickB said:


> Don't worry too much! If your coils are hard together, it would reduce your surface area.
> 
> I only have around 3m in my HERMs Hex, and still ramp at around 1C/min.
> 
> Just give it a go. If you're really worried, get some copper wire and just string it around everything, then tighten it up.
> 
> Cheers


I agree with Nick...
My heat exchange coil is my old immersion chiller....
It's probably about 3m too...
Sorta been pulled apart and then pushed back together when i started using it in the heat exchange...
My heat exchange is a 10L pot with a G&G element in it, and i'm getting 1 to 1.5 degree a min...
Just give it a go !
Cheers
Ferg


----------



## scooter_59

Hi Frag Dog ;
Just buy a length of copper strip 2-3 cm wide . Drill holes to the size of the copper tubing of how ever many turns you have and then feed the stip around the copper tubing , through the holes . You may have to make 2 - 3 of these strips but it will keep everything straight and tidy .






Sorta like this .Except you only need one hole per turn .


----------



## hsb

I've just had to abandon a Stout due to my false bottom (again) completely inverting.

My set up is single level 4V HERMS. MLT and HLT are keggles.

Mash Tun has a domed false bottom with Silicon tubing up to outlet.
March Pump recirculates everything.

I always try and minimise the pull on the grain bed by throttling after the pump.

This time the flow was just so poor straight away that whatever I did, it didn't improve. (reprime pump, check all connections, stir grain bed in the end)
Eventually frustration got the better of me and I tried the pump full tilt to see if I could shift it, that's probably what totally flattened the false bottom against the base of the keggle.(though it might have already happened)

I mash thin (4:1) to try and avoid a stuck mash. 4 hours and 6kg down the drain, disappointing. 

Anyone had similar problems pulling on their grain bed with the March Pump? I really don't want to make a Grant, 5 vessels really is too much!
I'm at the end of my tether with the false bottom setup, it should be fine, used it so many times, but last few months it just doesn't seem right.
Flow through the pump seemed OK, no sign of air, but I'm sure my problems lie under my false bottom.


----------



## stew.w

i did the first time i used mine but that was because i didnt throttle the pump back, i have the ball valve on the pump outlet about half closed. maybe your crush is too fine, apart from that im not sure what it'd be.

Cheers,

Stewart


----------



## razz

Same thing happened to my 12" fb. Last time I used it I think I started to recirc to soon and too fast, the whole thing collapsed and I chucked it. What I do now is dough in and let the mash rest for 15 mins, this gives me time to take a Ph reading and add salts if needed. The benefit to the mash, I think, is a well hydrated grist which then allows a good recirc. I also no longer use one of those fb's.


----------



## hsb

Thanks guys, good idea on letting it all sit for 15, certainly can't hurt.

I think I'm going to look at hard plumbing it. The FB might be shifting around a little, putting pressure on the silicone tubing. 
I can't be certain without a "mashcam" where exactly the problem is but I've probably got enough odds and ends lying around to eliminate that possibility. Then I'll just hose it out to clean it.

If that doesn't work, I'll be building a manifold! 

First time this happened the false bottom did a nice clean flip, going from concave to convex, so I could just turn it over and carry on using it.
This time I totally mangled it, will see if I can post a pic of it, looks like it's been hit by a train. Was a 12" one.


----------



## jackson

are you crushing your own grain if so check your mill gap. I had similar issues until I gapped my mill to 1 mm


----------



## hsb

All my grain is store crushed, primarily from Craftbrewer. I think the problem is mine, but if I crushed it myself I'd definitely be looking at that - thanks.
I don't know what CB crush at, but I'd guess it's in the zone for no-problems.
I think my False bottom setup is the problem, good job I mullered my False bottom!


----------



## MaltyHops

hsb said:


> I've just had to abandon a Stout due to my false bottom (again) completely inverting.
> ...


Maybe secure a couple of short lengths of 1/2inch copper tubing on the under
side of the FB to give the FB some support? Could get some s/s self-tapping
screws and screw into the tubes with the FB in between - s/s tubes would be
even better to avoid galvanic corrosion.


----------



## DWC

I'm in the process of finishing my herms at the moment, but I'm 
not sure how to go about the wort return into the MLT. Could everyone
post pics of theirs for some inspiration please.
Cheers

Dave


----------



## razz

DWC said:


> I'm in the process of finishing my herms at the moment, but I'm
> not sure how to go about the wort return into the MLT. Could everyone
> post pics of theirs for some inspiration please.
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


This is obviously the inside Dave, outside is just a through fitting for the return.


----------



## Screwtop

DWC said:


> I'm in the process of finishing my herms at the moment, but I'm
> not sure how to go about the wort return into the MLT. Could everyone
> post pics of theirs for some inspiration please.
> Cheers
> 
> Dave




Liked the Blichmann Autosparger and wanted something similar. I fly/continuous sparge via pump and HE to the MLT while draining (gravity) to the kettle. Rate is very slow so did away with the floatvalve, just use a length of silicon hose and a fishing net float, simple as and works a treat. Hope this provides some inspiration.

Screwy


----------



## fraser_john

Screwtop said:


> Liked the Blichmann Autosparger and wanted something similar. I fly/continuous sparge via pump and HE to the MLT while draining (gravity) to the kettle. Rate is very slow so did away with the floatvalve, just use a length of silicon hose and a fishing net float, simple as and works a treat. Hope this provides some inspiration.
> 
> Screwy



Nice one there Screwy, following the KISS principle, however why I used to fly sparge always found it difficult to properly balance in/out flow correctly, one was always more than the other, with the float valve, it solves that problem. 

Be interested to see if someone as built a full alternative to the Blichmann model.

maybe based on:


----------



## raven19

Mod Edit - Moved this 'Airlocked' thread so easier to find for brewers future reference, moved it to 'Gear and Equipment' section of the forums.


----------



## sponge

Hey all,

Just been having a read through this thread and getting far too many ideas for my likings...

One thing I have noticed is that most of you use PID controllers, but there are some of you that still use the old faithful STC1000 (or similar)

Is there any advantage having a PID over an STC? From what I can picture, theyre both essentially switching an element on/off to maintain a temperature setpoint

Granted that the PID controllers allow for step times and everything to be added and controlled, but if this is just done using an external timer, are there any other advantages of the PID route?


Sponge


----------



## hsb

I use a BCS-460 which emulates a PID - the basic premise is that a PID offers (far) more smarts in temperature control. it will use an algorithm to hit your setpoint but not exceed it, as you can see here quite clearly 





If you use a simple STC1000, you will find you overshoot/undershoot setpoints as you get lag from thermal masses heating/cooling. There are also no smarts going on to map the HEX liquid temperature changes to your desired temperature. PID are fairly cheap and worth the hassle if you are going to the trouble of recirculating to achieve precise temperature control.

Wikpedia has a much more eloquent description of what a PID does 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller


----------



## sponge

Yea I do a fair bit of work with the old PID's at work but was thinking that the PIDs would still struggle to maintain the correct temperature due to the thermal mass of the water and whatnot.

I will most probably go down the PID road as as you say, you will end up with a greater level of control in the system, but just thought I'd ask the question anyways.

The one other question I have is regarding the temperature probe used to monitor the wort temperature coming out of the HERMS coil.

I am looking at placing a tap at the end of the HERMS coil, with a tee piece after that and attaching the probe to the horiztonal length of the tee piece, with the wort exiting the perpendicular length.

From what I have read, most people use the 1/4" NPT PT100 probes, but wouldn't the length of the probe end up reaching the ball valve in the tap, thus making it unable to be closed?

I am more than happy to be proven wrong, and just wondering what people with taps are doing regarding mounting the probe.


Cheers,

Sponge


EDIT: now that I think about it, I'd be using a 1/2" NPT tee piece with a 1/2" to 1/4" reducer which would probably add enough length to the start of the probe to not be a problem. Either way, any feedback would be greatly appreciated


----------



## NickB

I have no issues using a TempMate to control HERMS temperature. I have it set to .5C and I don't seem to have any issues with overshoot at all. Will be changing out to an STC-1000 shortly as I have just acquired some.

Cheers


----------



## hsb

Sorry, didn't mean to teach you to suck eggs there - PIDs control the temperature of the HEX liquid based on the probe reading by switching on/off rapidly. This you know. If you look at a graph, you see that they do this very well by 'learning' their environment to round the curve off as you approach the setpoint. I never overshoot with one, someone else may be able to express that better but they are definitely what you need better at controlling temperature.

Why do you need a Ball Valve at the HEX out? Why would you need to close it?

I have a T and Probe, exactly as you describe but there is enough room with a 1/4 > 1/2" HEX nipple there as well in which for the probe to face directly towards the HEX and flow to go past probe and out perpendicular route. Basically just chain fittings together if you don't have room to make room?
I have the probe through a compression fitting as well, so it is directly in the liquid flow. (but not that exact model of probe)

Anyone else have the *1/4" NPT PT100* probe as per sponge's post to show their setup?


----------



## sponge

Thanks for the replies fellas.

As you say the PID would limit/eliminate the overshoot that an STC/similar might employ. I was just thinking that with the decent amount of water used to heat the HE, the change in water temperature over time would be quite minimal, but then again, by the time the STC reads the correct wort out temp, the surrounding water would still bring the wort temperature up higher than what was calculated.

As per most things brewing, it'll come down to knowing your own set up and how to minimise these factors with the equipment you have.

And with the probe placement, I guess the probe may be short enough to fit onto the perpendicular thread using a reducer without needing too much extra equipment. I thought about using a compression fitting/thermowell instead, but think I'll just end up using PT100's if they fit alright.

Cheers for the feedback


Sponge


----------



## raven19

Sponge - Best to add your valve at the outlet side of your pump to throttle your flow.

Here is my Probe setup with pics in my build thread if interested. RIMS yes, but theory is pretty much the same. No issues with overshooting / thermal mass, etc either.

Some more info at the start of that topic on overshooting, PID's etc too.

Good luck with the build.

Edit - spelling


----------



## sponge

Thanks for all the feedback.

So hopefully I'm getting towards the ordering end of things. Just thought I'd express my thoughts outloud so I can see if I'm on the right track or not...

This would be for a 3V system with a seperate small pot for the HERMS coil.

Ill hopefully be starting everything from scratch (new kegs with taps mounted on the bottom of the keg for MT and HLT and front mounted with diptube for kettle) but in terms of main hardware (exluding PID side of things) my shopping list is....

4 x taps (3 vessels and one for the liquid OUT side of the pump)
2 x compression fittings for SS HERMS coil
1 x SS HERMS coil (or Cu, but will probably end up going SS)
6 x F type QD's for taps on all three vessels, the liquid OUT side of the pump and the two entry/exit points for the HERMS coil
1 x A type QD for liquid IN to the pump
6 x B type QD's for various bits of 1/2" ID silicon hosing
1 x 1/2" tee piece for probe for wort out of the coil
2 x elements for HLT and HERMS pot (might either use my gas burner or over the side element for the kettle that I have for HLT/Kettle atm)
1 x march pump

Is this sounding about right for everything excluding PID controllers etc?

Now to shield myself from being thrown out by the CFO when I let her know...


Sponge


----------



## mxd

sponge said:


> And with the probe placement, I guess the probe may be short enough to fit onto the perpendicular thread using a reducer without needing too much extra equipment. I thought about using a compression fitting/thermowell instead, but think I'll just end up using PT100's if they fit alright.



I think my probe placement is similar to what your describing, photo's below

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/11425105...062629109993233


----------



## sponge

Yea not too sure where I got this idea that I needed valves on the in and out of the HERMS coil... Pretty sure I might have seen it on the electric brewery website or something?

Either way, that idea has been scrapped so it should be sha-weet to fit the probe in without having to worry about it preventing a tap from closing.

Now to play the savings game and look into a HERMS coil...



Sponge


----------



## Crusty

hsb said:


> Sorry, didn't mean to teach you to suck eggs there - PIDs control the temperature of the HEX liquid based on the probe reading by switching on/off rapidly. This you know. If you look at a graph, you see that they do this very well by 'learning' their environment to round the curve off as you approach the setpoint. I never overshoot with one, someone else may be able to express that better but they are definitely what you need better at controlling temperature.
> 
> Why do you need a Ball Valve at the HEX out? Why would you need to close it?
> 
> I have a T and Probe, exactly as you describe but there is enough room with a 1/4 > 1/2" HEX nipple there as well in which for the probe to face directly towards the HEX and flow to go past probe and out perpendicular route. Basically just chain fittings together if you don't have room to make room?
> I have the probe through a compression fitting as well, so it is directly in the liquid flow. (but not that exact model of probe)
> 
> Anyone else have the *1/4" NPT PT100* probe as per sponge's post to show their setup?



I have mine screwed into a 1/2 > 1/4" reducing bush bsp. The pt100 is 1/4" npt. Mine is measuring the exit of my Rims tube which stands vertical.


----------



## sponge

Hey all,

Quick question. Ive had a little search but couldn't find anything...

Is it possible to use the 3 conductor PT100 probes with an STC1000?

I'm thinking that due to the thermal mass of water and how slowly the temperature within the HERMS unit will change, I was going to try setting up my HERMS just using an STC1000 since I have one spare one sitting around at the moment.

Since the only available 1/2" SS probes I've been able to find are the short ones on the auberins site (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=20_15&products_id=249), as most of the sponsors seem to be sold out of the longer-probed 2 conductor ones, I just thought I'd check to see if the short auberins probes would work with the STC1000.

Or if anyone knows of a decent 1/2" SS probe suitable for the STC just let me know. I wouldn't mind getting this all sorted out fairly soon...

Cheers,

Sponge





EDIT: Ross may have beaten me to it and saved the day.


----------



## sponge

One more question.

Ive noticed quite a few people insulating their HEX. Do people find that if they overshoot their temperature, it takes quite a while for it to get back down to the set value? 

I'd just be thinking that cooling down a decent volume of water would take a while, and doing that in an insulated container would slow things down fairly dramatically.

Is it worth not insulating if the volume used for the HEX is >10L or so. I'll be using a 19L BigW pot for it...


Sponge


----------



## hsb

I can't see the point myself (and haven't) for exactly the reasons you describe, it just makes it harder to control so far as I can see.
You want it to shed heat reasonably quickly so it doesn't overshoot? Others mileage may vary though but small mass of water = easy to control with an element = no need to insulate imo? You don't buy insulated household kettles, you just reheat them.


----------



## sponge

My thoughts exactly.

Cheers for the clarification.

I'm sure some people who insulate take that into consideration when controlling the temps to avoid overshooting and whatnot, but I think I'll just go nude 


h34r: 


Sponge


----------



## JaseH

sponge said:


> Or if anyone knows of a decent 1/2" SS probe suitable for the STC just let me know. I wouldn't mind getting this all sorted out fairly soon...
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Sponge
> 
> EDIT: Ross may have beaten me to it and saved the day.



You could try a thermowell with the sensor supplied with the STC1000? I just ordered one from here for my HLT(scroll to bottom of page): http://beerbelly.com.au/fittings.html


----------



## sponge

I was thinking about the thermowell path, but think I'll just look for a direct contact probe.

Might even pick up a thermowell as well just to test the difference in accuracy, if there is one...

But as you say, thats always an option which would work just as well I'd be thinking.



Sponge


----------



## Cortez The Killer

Sponge

You could grab a stainless 1/2" thermowell like one of these or similar 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/THERMOWELL-304s...=item51812d1e6e

Insert the existing STC-1000 plastic probe in all the way and then fill with some sort of medium eg silicone sealant which is rated to 150*C

And you'll have a your own stainless probe

Cheers


----------



## Crusty

hsb said:


> I can't see the point myself (and haven't) for exactly the reasons you describe, it just makes it harder to control so far as I can see.
> You want it to shed heat reasonably quickly so it doesn't overshoot? Others mileage may vary though but small mass of water = easy to control with an element = no need to insulate imo? You don't buy insulated household kettles, you just reheat them.



Very valid point. I haven't insulated mine & don't see the need to. Temps lost or gained are very quick to correct themselves & I am extremely happy with my PT100 & PID. Temps are spot on.


----------



## hsb

I have a short themowell left over from my setup you can have. It's only something like 3" though (would have to measure forgotten the size.)
I use a compression fitting/ probe direct in wort, might as well if accuracy is the whole goal of the exercise.


----------



## mxd

sponge said:


> One more question.
> 
> Ive noticed quite a few people insulating their HEX. Do people find that if they overshoot their temperature, it takes quite a while for it to get back down to the set value?
> 
> I'd just be thinking that cooling down a decent volume of water would take a while, and doing that in an insulated container would slow things down fairly dramatically.
> 
> Is it worth not insulating if the volume used for the HEX is >10L or so. I'll be using a 19L BigW pot for it...
> 
> 
> Sponge




I insulate but I run a PID so overshoot is theoretically not an issue.


----------



## bradsbrew

How fast should I be recirculating the mash through the HERMS? I am currently just having the ball valve fully open.

Cheers


----------



## JaseH

Cortez The Killer said:


> Insert the existing STC-1000 plastic probe in all the way and then fill with some sort of medium eg silicone sealant which is rated to 150*C



I think the best stuff to use is thermal grease, what they use between heat sinks and IC/CPU's in computers. Pack some of that into the thermowell around the sensor. Its designed for conducting heat between two mating surfaces. Then you could plug the end with something like silicon sealant if you wanted?


----------



## QldKev

bradsbrew said:


> How fast should I be recirculating the mash through the HERMS? I am currently just having the ball valve fully open.
> 
> Cheers




I like to do it as fast as you can without getting a stuck mash.


----------



## raven19

My max flow rate varies on mash volume - similar to Kev's post above - to avoid a stuck mash.

I tend to have the valve open only 50% maximum of late.


----------



## hsb

Same here, normally have it about 1/3 to 1/2 open, no need to go too quick, only 20-40l of liquid in the loop anyway. 
I'm finding better results from letting the mash sit for 10 after dough in and I dump the first litre out of Tun back on top as its often got stray bits of grain in.


----------



## sponge

Hey all,

Just getting around to wiring up my temp controllers for the HX and also the HLT.

Ive bought a project box big enough to house both units and have almost finished cutting the holes for all the bits and pieces.

Since I will only be using the heating side of two STC1000's for this, I will have two main supplies coming in to feed either STC and then have the two elements attached to the respective STC. All in and out feeds will be using flush mount gpo's and not worry about having extension cords going in and out of the control unit - more for aesthetics than anything else.

One question I had is that I plan on fitting a 15A breaker for each circuit (2500W elements) as seen on http://www.photonage.com.au/15a-flush-moun...ker-p-6642.html

Should I be putting these in before or after the switch (LED lit DPST rocker switch) which I'm going to use to turn these on/off? I was thinking before to protect the switches themselves as well? 

Also, just because I've never used a small flush circuit breaker like this before, do I just have the live wire coming in one terminal and out the other? ie. not using the neutral wire at all? Might seem like a real simple question but just thought I'd check since I hadn't used these before. 

One last question. I know not many people have air vents or whatever on the boxes with a single STC (I dont for the one I use to run the fridge), but with having two in the one box and not much extra internal space (pretty cramped with all the electrical devices and wiring), would it be worth drilling a few holes in the top of the box to help reduce any excessive heat that may occur from running both units simultaneously?

Anyways, thanks for the help.


Sponge


----------



## cdbrown

I would have thought the best place for the breaker is before the switch in order to protect the the circuit. If it's after the switch and there's something wrong with the switch (loose wiring) then there's no protection. 

I haven't noticed that the STCs get too warm - and it's on all the time for the fridge - so probably wouldn't worry about putting holes in the box.


----------



## sponge

Yea was pretty much sold on having it before the switch. no point not having the switch protect and therefore the circuit. Just thought I'd throw the question out as an insurance policy

I might just make a few holes in the top of the box for the heat to dissipate, but as you say, it probably wouldnt be a problem not having them there. 

Main question was just with the wiring with the flush mount breakers. Since its only a single pole 2 terminal breaker (as seen in the link above), the live wire just goes in one terminal and out the other? Neutral would just pass straight onto the next piece of equipment, which in this case would be the DPST switch?

Cheers,


Sponge


----------



## QldKev

sponge said:


> Yea was pretty much sold on having it before the switch. no point not having the switch protect and therefore the circuit. Just thought I'd throw the question out as an insurance policy
> 
> I might just make a few holes in the top of the box for the heat to dissipate, but as you say, it probably wouldnt be a problem not having them there.
> 
> Main question was just with the wiring with the flush mount breakers. Since its only a single pole 2 terminal breaker (as seen in the link above), the live wire just goes in one terminal and out the other? Neutral would just pass straight onto the next piece of equipment, which in this case would be the DPST switch?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> Sponge




I would run the breaker to protect all the gear, so first. 

By the looks it just switches the active, so active in, active out

I would def put holes in the box with the 2500w load. On mine I put them in the sides, on one side towards the top, on the opposite towards the bottom. That way you get a cross ventilation happening. 



QldKev


----------



## Yob

Started a little Hermies today





bent round my old partial's pot




loosely assembled in a Big W pot




this is going to be a temporary set up till I get the Shed refitted, once that happens I want to set it all up different and want to combine a HX coil in the HLT.. I wanted to do that today but I think I need to plan it more.. I dont want to screw up my HLT with impatience.. maybe hold out for a SS Bling jobbie....  

The only issue I have is that I suspect I will need to have the pump lower at the start to prime the pump and higher than the MT to finish and drain the HX?

4V, it's all very exciting.. :icon_drunk: 

Yob


----------



## hsb

Thanks Pete ( re: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=901539 ) :icon_cheers: 

If you can hit the 90s without stirring, I'm confident I can get close enough.

- The Batch Sparge Branch of the HERMS (not) Stirring Committee.


----------



## sponge

So whats the method behind this batch sparging process with HERMS?

Is it just a single step batch sparge since the normal mash is normally around the 3:1 ratio?

Is the mash completely drained (after sacc rest), then the mash water added, stirred, recirced for a few minutes to clarify wort, then drained and boiled?

Wouldn't mind doing something along those lines as opposed to fly sparging. 


Sponge


----------



## cdbrown

I do a single batch sparge. After mash out I put the PID on hold and switch the power off to the element. Slowly drain/pump to the kettle. Once I see that there's no more liquid coming out of the MT I'll switch over and pump the sparge water from HLT to MT through the HERMs making sure to turn the HERMS element back on. I normally have the mash out and sparge temp as the same so don't need to wait for any additional heating in the HERMS. Give it a good stir and then recirc for 10mins before draining 2nd runnings.

Only have one pump so it's batch sparge for me.


----------



## QldKev

cdbrown said:


> I do a single batch sparge. After mash out I put the PID on hold and switch the power off to the element. Slowly drain/pump to the kettle. Once I see that there's no more liquid coming out of the MT I'll switch over and pump the sparge water from HLT to MT through the HERMs making sure to turn the HERMS element back on. I normally have the mash out and sparge temp as the same so don't need to wait for any additional heating in the HERMS. Give it a good stir and then recirc for 10mins before draining 2nd runnings.
> 
> Only have one pump so it's batch sparge for me.




Same method here.

QldKev


----------



## Maheel

how clear should the end result out of the herms mash ?

is this way to cloudy, i am thinking to cloudy....


----------



## QldKev

Maheel said:


> how clear should the end result out of the herms mash ?
> 
> is this way to cloudy, i am thinking to cloudy....




All depends, if you've had your fingers amputated then it may be ok, if not I think its too cloudy. 

QldKev


----------



## Maheel

lol thanks Kev

what do i do to make it clear ? is it the crush i was thinking ti's now to coarse and would not get a good filter happeing
when i drained it i could not see any serious channeling 

couple of vids


----------



## QldKev

Not 100% sure, I had a look at the videos but it is hard to fully see what is happening. 

What type of pre-boil efficiency do you get? 
What did you do with that lid you threw in?


----------



## Maheel

i laid it on top of the grain bed for the wort return to run across as it looked like the return flow was churing up the bed.

i did not really weigh out the grain and water but roughly 3.5kg of grain gave me a final pre-boil volume of 14L and 1042 in about 17L of water
brewmate tells me a dismal 53%...


----------



## QldKev

Using 3.5kg, 1042 and 17L I get 64% eff, but using 14L I agree 53%. So it is possible you do have channelling. And my guess is this is the problem.

I don't mind if the top layer of the grain bed gets disturbed a bit from the return, as long as the wort on top is getting mixed to get a uniform heat return to be pulled through the grain bed. There will still be heaps of depth of grain to help clarify. 

With that lid, did it have holes to allow flow through? if not will it prevent wort from through the middle where it is? Hence forcing it to channel around it.

Try get a local brewer around for a brew day, I think to be there and see what is happening will make all the difference.

Don't forget too, that there is still heaps of debate that where ever or not clarified wort from the kettle actually makes a difference to the final product. 

QldKev


----------



## Maheel

thanks Kev 

there were no holes in that lid i reckon it would have stopped proper flow and caused channeling / no-flow zones like you suggest. 

as today i only really wanted to test the HX so that was a success then i decided to chuck in some grain for fun to see what happens
the clarity would have been a lot better to my BIAB thats for sure i reckon, and the BIAB has been turning out good beer.

i have some camlocks and silicone hose coming and need to build a proper rig
create a better wort return then have a proper recipe for it and actually do a real brew with a better set up.

i will spend the next few weeks look at others pictures for rig ideas and hit up some locals to see if i can visit them mid brew


----------



## Yob

well.. like a dog with a bone Ive tried to make this thing fly before I just head to the wallet solution  







Going to give it a go tmoz just with the immersion element and see how it goes.. If it fly's I will get a kettle element installed into it and see how that feels..

hee hee... pumps :lol: 

Got the hose insulation free.. Like a fair chunk of my ghetto brewery.. B) 

Yob


----------



## kelbygreen

is that a 20 lt pot?? only thing I can think of is the ramping temps may take a while. If you are infusing then that wouldnt be a problem. I know I seen tony's set up and he said that using his HLT as a heat exchange was about the only problem in his works. Well not a problem but it means he has to infuse mash instead of ramp it up. I guess not a big problem but just the limitations of the bigger HE


----------



## Yob

kelbygreen said:


> is that a 20 lt pot??



Yep




Infusion mash in @ 66 temp controller set to 65 for the 20lt pot... 




3m copper coil :huh: yeah I know, should be longer.. but worked just fine.. today was more about getting to know the process and hell.. just seeing if I could get a bit better control over temps




Recirc was a little far end justified but will make some alterations to the hose




Pretty happy with recirc temps in the mash.. I also had the probe for the HEX in the mash ... in various locations




Ramping to mashout was a doddle... about 10-15 mins max.. forgot to time but couldnt have been more than that B) Loved it




Cleaning the pump and lines was a doddle... will have to add some PBW to the kettle next time 




Beer was cubed




I thought I had a few lt too much but worked out spot on

ed: all in all a shit load of fun.. I have to keep reminding myself that this is a temporary rig and the Slaughterhouse Brewery Mk II will not be far away 

:beerbang:


----------



## Screwtop

iamozziyob said:


> Yep
> 
> View attachment 53982
> 
> 
> Infusion mash in @ 66 temp controller set to 65 for the 20lt pot...
> 
> View attachment 53983
> 
> 
> 3m copper coil :huh: yeah I know, should be longer.. but worked just fine.. today was more about getting to know the process and hell.. just seeing if I could get a bit better control over temps
> 
> View attachment 53984
> 
> 
> Recirc was a little far end justified but will make some alterations to the hose
> 
> View attachment 53985
> 
> 
> Pretty happy with recirc temps in the mash.. I also had the probe for the HEX in the mash ... in various locations
> 
> View attachment 53986
> 
> 
> Ramping to mashout was a doddle... about 10-15 mins max.. forgot to time but couldnt have been more than that B) Loved it
> 
> View attachment 53987
> 
> 
> Cleaning the pump and lines was a doddle... will have to add some PBW to the kettle next time
> 
> View attachment 53988
> 
> 
> Beer was cubed
> 
> View attachment 53989
> 
> 
> I thought I had a few lt too much but worked out spot on
> 
> ed: all in all a shit load of fun.. I have to keep reminding myself that this is a temporary rig and the Slaughterhouse Brewery Mk II will not be far away
> 
> :beerbang:


Look at that, go you good thing!!!!!!! A real brewery :lol:

Screwy


----------



## kelbygreen

nice!. Well ramp temps seemed to be very good. I guess you had the immersion element in there and looks like you only filled the pot just over half way. Cant wait to get one set up myself


----------



## Yob

well.. sticking with the current set up for the moment and after much swearing and tinkering I came up with a simple and cheap option Im going to try.. from suggestions on anther thread Ive made the following device for probe placement.




the probe will come in through the cap piece






the short length of hose will be "plugged" with silicone suitable for drinking water and rated to 150'c to keep it sealed.




this will essentially be right at the outlet of the coil (still too short probably) and will be running the STC/immersion element as above... for now

Im going put the silicone in tonight and give it a run through tmoz.. 

Yob

ed: spoiling


----------



## Yob

looks to betting ramp times of 1'c in 50 seconds...

is happy camping, just doin a water run to test it... sadly no brewing for the last few weeks  

Looks like the Vic July swap guys will get my first 'real' herms brew next weekend B) 

Yob


----------



## Yob

well.. after 2 weeks of tinkering it was time to throw caution to the wind and use it all today.. 

Expected OG was 1052 at my previous 75% Eff... Actual OG reached today was 1063, havnt done the numbers and dont know what the Eff is but it has to be something terribly large I expect :lol: 




The rig in all it's ghetto gloriousness, still working on the 'control box', that will be tidied up into a single unit.. pending PID build.




Brew in a Bag in an Esky 4V Herms :lol: sure it's another thing to clean, but it made cleaning the manifold a rinse job, love it, dont know why I didnt do this before. 




This little bit of rig was awesome in action, crystal clear and you get to see it go from cloudy to clear








I was curious to see where it (sparge arm) sat in the bed so I ran off the first runnings and then batch sparged 10lt and recirced for 10 mins and then fly sparged the rest of the volume I needed to the kettle




This is the pattern I got with the recirc which I was quite happy with 




Happy with volumes form the kettle too, I could have done with another 500ml but Im not complaining.




Who doesnt like to get a good cone at the end of a brew session? B) 

All in all a fabulous experience, 6 hours to Brew a batch, bottle a batch, pitch a batch and rinse some yeast.. could well go down as my most productive beer day ever... and with a GABS hangover.. ha ha..

Thanks to all for the help along the way thus far, 10 shades of awesomeness


----------



## razz

:beerbang: 
Excellent work Yob !


----------



## Screwtop

iamozziyob said:


> Expected OG was 1052 at my previous 75% Eff... Actual OG reached today was 1063, havnt done the numbers and dont know what the Eff is but it has to be something terribly large I expect :lol:
> 
> 
> Thanks to all for the help along the way thus far, 10 shades of awesomeness




Haha! Peice a piss this brewing caper eh!!!

Fly is so easy, and as you have found results in high eff!!!!!!!!!!

Congrats on a great brew day.

Screwy


----------



## Yob

Ha.. yeah cheers, today was a piece of piss.. the 6 months of research, building and tweaking was a curve though


----------



## Wolfy

All my Ebay bits have arrived so it's time to start the tedious process of putting together the control box for the new brewery-setup.

Circuit diagram currently looks like this:






Unless there is something major wrong with the diagram above, the only remaining question is how to plug the temperature probe into the PID?
PID is a Sestos D1S-VR-220 and the probe is a 0-150C PT100 with three wires (yellow, green, red):




I _assume _that the probe is connected to terminals 3-4-5, but don't know which order.


----------



## zxhoon

at a guess, red lug on terminal 3, other two on 4 and 5, if you have a multi-meter check the resistance, between the two blue lugs should be close to zero ohms and a resistance between either of those and the red lug which varies with the temperature of the probe 100 ohms at 0c or around 107 ohms at 20c


----------



## Wolfy

Thanks *zxhoon*. 
It's 108 ohms between the red and blue and 1.1 ohms between the two blue terminals - so I guess your guess is spot-on.


----------



## zxhoon

sweet as, basically the two blue lugs enable the controller to calculate the resistance in the wiring to the sensor, to compensate for it, and then get the precise resistance of the RTD


----------



## Endo

Chappo said:


> It 's a simple tee piece with a terminator end. I epoxied it in there using high temp expoxy.



Was there a specific epoxy you used that is food safe?

In the process of putting my herms together 

I'm using the Kettle / Griffon Coil "im a cheap bastard" method.... for now anyway 

I think I paid more for stainless quick disconnects then for the pump and kettle....


----------



## Truman42

Following some recent dramas I had with my pump not priming properly 

See this thread 
Solution for pump priming problems

I completely re plumbed my system making sure all my lines were as short as possible and my pump was much lower than anything else.

Heres the pic of the new setup with the HLT moved so its level with the mash tun and kettle and well above the pump.




And heres the pump complete with built in illuminated switch. Water comes in at the top direct from the HLT or MLT through the HEX and back up into the top of the MLT.
Havent tested it yet but confident it will work.


----------



## Yob

Looks a lot tidier mate... Go on.. Give it a wet run


----------



## Truman42

iamozziyob said:


> Looks a lot tidier mate... Go on.. Give it a wet run



lol..Ive still got to swap over the temp probe and the male barb on the hex outlet as the hose kinks too much when it comes out the side from under the shelf above.

Will give it a go tomorrow night.


----------



## tuckerle71

Looks Great Truman. I wish that I had the room for a nice tidy setup like that - as it is, At the moment I have to drag everything out of storage when I want to brew.

It makes it neat by mounting the pump switch in the frame, although if you haven't already, you should probably earth the frame of your stand, or at least run your pump off a Safety Switch.
If any water gets on the back of that switch, it could light the whole frame like a christmas tree!


----------



## Truman42

MrTucker said:


> Looks Great Truman. I wish that I had the room for a nice tidy setup like that - as it is, At the moment I have to drag everything out of storage when I want to brew.
> 
> It makes it neat by mounting the pump switch in the frame, although if you haven't already, you should probably earth the frame of your stand, or at least run your pump off a Safety Switch.
> If any water gets on the back of that switch, it could light the whole frame like a christmas tree!



Thanks mate...The pumps only 12 volt and I do have it plugged into a powerboard with a cutout and the GPO is wired through an RCD.


----------



## Yob

It occured to me the other week that I could be making better use of my HERMS rig.. The HER-MUT.. (under testing) I know it's against the grain currently with all these small HERMIT type contraptions... but hay, it's multi purpose, makes brewday easier and my losses to my HER-MUT are probably about 50ml (unmeasured) if that.




The old, inlet to the HER-MUT at the top so that the lines gravity empty to the MT when the inlet is disconnected




First thing I wanted to do was get the element off the bottom of the pot. Easily acheived with a few minutes with the Ozzito rotary tool. The Hook now props against the lid and suspends the element nicely.




Next was to add a tap to the pot.




and a return Barb




So now I can, after mash out, stop the pump and drain the lines to the Keggle, change the inlet line over from the MT to the tap on the HER-MUT and change the return from the MT to the return on the HER-MUT




add PBW or Sodium PERC to the HER-MUT and simply recirc it through all the lines for 20 mins, drain to Keggle (after boil naturally) and add rinse water and recirc... essentially turning the greater part of the brewery into a CIP unit.

These mods were made post brew the other day so didnt get to string it all together but it will certainly work :beerbang: 

Next thing to do is insulate it so I can improve the thermal properties of the unit. with a cork base and probably camping mate type wall insulation.

Yob


----------



## Truman42

Looks good Yob, always good to see your latest inventions. your an inspiration to us gadget lovers.  

I dont get how your hook holds the element though? Wont the lid be in the way??


----------



## Yob

Truman said:


> I dont get how your hook holds the element though? Wont the lid be in the way??



It's the lid that holds it off the bottom.. The Hook on the element jams against the lid keeping the base of the element held 25mm or so from the base of the pot.

The sad thing is Im probably going to have to wait 2 weeks or so to use the bloody thing propperly.... unless I buy another cube that is..  

:icon_cheers:


----------



## Yob

A bit of further tinkering to insulate the HER-MUT has seen it evolve into this




$3 pink camping mat from the Salvo's and 20 minutes tinkering and half a roll of gaffa tape, going to use it today and see if there is an improvement in temp stability.. not that I was displeased with it before, just trying to make things a little more refined

:icon_drunk:


----------



## squirt in the turns

Nice one! But... it looks like you've taped the lid on? Isn't that going to be problematic? Am I right in thinking this unit is your combined HLT/HEX?


----------



## Yob

squirt in the turns said:


> Nice one! But... it looks like you've taped the lid on? Isn't that going to be problematic? Am I right in thinking this unit is your combined HLT/HEX?



Na, the tape on the lid is only temporary and will be cut, its just to get a better seal.

The unit is a dedicated HEX unit but doubles as a CIP unit for the pump and lines, the water/cleaning solution is then dumped into the keggle at the end of the boil.
I should be using much less water at the end of the day


----------



## Wolfy

Has anyone had success with auto-tuning the Sestos D1S-VR-220 PID?

My understanding of the instructions:


> 3/ First operate the Auto adjustment, press AT key 2 second, SV display blink AT, finally into PID control mode. Press the AT key 2 second to abandon Auto adjustment.
> 4/ If successful the first Auto adjustment, can not use AT key for Auto adjustment again. It need change function setting Ctrl to 2 to operated again.
> 5/ Auto adjustment needs from few second to few hour.


... is that I simply press the AT key (for 2 seconds) and then something visible should happen.
But pressing the AT key seems to do nothing that I can see, but assistance translating the instructions to someone who has used it successfully would be appreciated.


----------



## squirt in the turns

Wolfy said:


> Has anyone had success with auto-tuning the Sestos D1S-VR-220 PID?
> 
> My understanding of the instructions:
> 
> ... is that I simply press the AT key (for 2 seconds) and then something visible should happen.
> But pressing the AT key seems to do nothing that I can see, but assistance translating the instructions to someone who has used it successfully would be appreciated.



I've just received 2 of these that I'm yet to power on, so can't help, I'm afraid, but would be very interested in any advice about these devices. There should be a way to set the "control output" function to "auto adjustment" (the other 2 choices being "ON/OFF" and "PID"). So maybe you'll have to manually kick off the process that way.

A few folks have reported that these units are so similar internally to the Auber ones that the manual is more or less interchangeable (although the contact layout is completely different).


----------



## Wolfy

squirt in the turns said:


> I've just received 2 of these that I'm yet to power on, so can't help, I'm afraid, but would be very interested in any advice about these devices. There should be a way to set the "control output" function to "auto adjustment" (the other 2 choices being "ON/OFF" and "PID"). So maybe you'll have to manually kick off the process that way.
> 
> A few folks have reported that these units are so similar internally to the Auber ones that the manual is more or less interchangeable (although the contact layout is completely different).


Yep the Auber instructions were invaluable for changing the probe-type-setting, no way I'd have accomplished that with the Sestos stuff, so I might have to read them again.


----------



## squirt in the turns

Hey folks, I'm looking for some advice about RCDs/RCBOs/MCBs for my HERMS control panel. Currently pre-HERMS, I've been running a 2400W element (urn) and a March 809 pump (168W based on it drawing 0.7A) concurrently on the same 10A circuit. The house's circuit breakers (overload only, I believe) don't trip, so I'm assuming they're rated for 16A, unless there'd be a bit of "overhead" on 10A breakers?

I'll be putting RCDs in the control panel. Looking at suppliers like  this, for example, it appears that most RCDs are combined with MCBs, so unless there's a compelling reason not to do so, I'll get the combined device (known I believe as an RCBO). My question is, if I go for a 10A version, is it just going to trip every time I fire up the element and pump at the same time? Or, if I go for a 16A, is that sufficient excess that if the circuit is somehow overloaded, something might burn out or catch fire?

There'll be other low-wattage stuff in the mix too: 2 Sestos PIDs, 1 STC-1000 and a 12V DC power supply.


----------



## Acasta

Truman said:


> I completely re plumbed my system making sure all my lines were as short as possible and my pump was much lower than anything else.


So you find that the pump has to be at the lowest point? I was looking at having it quite close to the MT, but can make it lower if it helps make things easier.


----------



## Yob

I have a theory Id like some feedback on..

as documented Ive made this little HEX unit.




(inlet at the top and outlet at the bottom)

Its going to be a little different to the image pictured in the (hopefully) final build but it dawned on me that I can have another purpose for it... here it is...

At the end of the boil, can anyone see a reason why it couldnt also be used as a chiller? all I would have to do is add some ice to the pot when Im ready to drain off to the fermenter? Hook it up to the kettle and outlet to the FV

I generally run off quite slow and the thought is that surely it would drop a significant amount of temp with a slow run through the coil.

Im a few weeks off both the build and my next brew so plenty of time to tinker with it.

Thoughts?


----------



## razz

Hi Yob. I think cooling would be far more efficient if you added the wort to the pot and pumped water through the coil.


----------



## Yob

razz said:


> Hi Yob. I think cooling would be far more efficient if you added the wort to the pot and pumped water through the coil.



I thought about that but dont want to waste the water as I dont have tanks (yet) and the pot is too small for a full wort...

was thinking that if the run off was slow enough it might do the job... I might just have to do a 10lt wet water run and see what it does and what temp I can get it down to.

:icon_cheers:


----------



## glenwal

Your problem will be with the volume of water in the HEX compared to the volume of wort. If you had equal volumes, and 100% perfect exchange, you'd end up with water and wort at the mid point between the temperature of the two.

So if you had 0deg water, and 90deg wort (assuming some natural cooling during the whirlpool), you'd only get down to 45deg. And that's assuming 100% efficency, which you won't get. And assuming equal volumes, but I assume your HEX pot is smaller than your boiler?


----------



## Yob

Glen W said:


> Your problem will be with the volume of water in the HEX compared to the volume of wort. If you had equal volumes, and 100% perfect exchange, you'd end up with water and wort at the mid point between the temperature of the two.
> 
> So if you had 0deg water, and 90deg wort (assuming some natural cooling during the whirlpool), you'd only get down to 45deg. And that's assuming 100% efficency, which you won't get. And assuming equal volumes, but I assume your HEX pot is smaller than your boiler?




... well.. will be 23lt of wort in the kettle V's 20 lt pot.... but I see your point... if I only get to 40ish deg then not really worth it.

:icon_cheers:


----------



## Acasta

Did my first batch on the new system today. Everything went very smooth and as planned except for a loss in efficiency of about 10%. Last two batches were 87% and 85% mash eff but this first herms batch was only 76.5% (all mash efficiency)

My old process:
Mash in at 2.8L/kg single infusion, then add boiling water for a mash out followed by a single batch sparge of with the remaining water.

New process:
Mash in at with 2.6L/kg and set herms to recirc for 60 min, then ramp to 76 for mashout for 10min follow by a 20L batch sparge.

Not really sure what could have caused the loss in the process.

Here is some pics of the setup to help give a better idea. I can attach larger ones if need be.


----------



## Yob

is that your probe in the second photo? you have alot of line to get to before it gets to the temp probe...You want it on the outlet of the HEX.. (many thanks to those that suggested it to me) and also you could do with insulating those lines to aid in temp stability.. you could probably get away with shortening the lines a bit from the look of it.??

How is the temp measured at the HEX?

Im tipping temps were the issue here and recently Ive just got my system screwed down and eff. has boomed.

I made a little home made t piece a while ago here earlier in the thread... sure its cheap and nasty but it comes together in the end  

hope that helps man.




:icon_cheers:


----------



## Acasta

Yeah I saw that, great bit of ghetto handy work!

I was reading and notice people tend to measure at the exit from herms or at wort return to the MT, so where it is places in the tube I believe it should be getting a good temp reading as it enters back into the tun. I'm trying to figure out if this monitoring position could really cause the temp diff. If anything, the wort would be slightly warmer then at the exit then at the return so not sure how the issue would effect the mashing. I didn't read the grain bed temp at all during the mash.
Not sure which thread or who posted it but I remember reading the that wort returning is the temp to hold, as all the enzymes are working in the liquid not the grain bed.

I had it initially set up to your suggestion but reading truman's issue with the pump placement I follow the advice there and have how it is now, I'm having no issues with it so I'll leave it as is for now. 

Btw, how awesome is paint? haha


Edit to add:
All thats really changing is the way I'm measuring the wort and the addition of a recirc so other then you're suggestion I'm stuggling to come up with other causes.

How cool does the mash have to be to not convert properly anyway? At a guess the worst the bed could have been was 62-66 during the sacc rest.


----------



## Truman42

Acasta said:


> I had it initially set up to your suggestion but reading truman's issue with the pump placement I follow the advice there and have how it is now, I'm having no issues with it so I'll leave it as is for now.



I ended up turning my pump around so the body is at the highest point. See this post here

Pump placement

After having it fail twice due to crud getting into the bushes I cleaned it out and now run it with the body of the pump higher than the inlet so there's less chance of wort getting into the body. So far so good the pumps been running fine without and issue.


----------



## Yob

Acasta said:


> I was reading and notice people tend to measure at the exit from herms or at wort return to the MT, so where it is places in the tube I believe it should be getting a good temp reading as it enters back into the tun.



as I understand it , the enzymatic reactions are taking place in the hottest parts, ie the HEX and it may well be much hotter there than the end of the line, especially if the line's not insulated, this can have possibly resulted in a bit of a false reading on where you expected it to be meaning your mash temps could be out not producing the profile of wort you were expecting and resulting in efficiency loss..

least that's the way I understand it.. and it seems to make sense that you control the hottest bit  

:icon_cheers:


----------



## Bizier

It is more like you want to be able to control the hottest point of your mash so that you are not denaturing enzymes. At least from my perspective.

If you had a large lag, e.g. 5 degrees C, and you had your heat exchange set for 69C, though the main portion of the mash was catching up at 65C, you should have beta and alpha amylase activity in the mash, but only alpha in the heat exchange. So you should have one constantly active enzyme (alpha) and another which is active, though deanaturing as the whole mash warms up.

If you controlled at the wort return to the tun, there should be very little loss, obviously depending on the length of tubing from heat exchange, but theoretically you might be able to come up with some kind of mash schedule where you were denaturing an enzyme which you wanted to be active, especially in the beta/alpha crossover temperature area of saccharification.

ED: this is all more pertinant if you wanted to control your mash temp from, say, the entry to the heat exchange (basically coolest point), and there was a large lag. If this were the case, you could fry all of your enzymes because it might tell the PID to crank the element full stick until it sees a change in temp, though in this time, you may have brought a significant portion of your mash past mash-out temperatures.


----------



## Acasta

I think I'll re-plumb my lines and shorten them then try to work out some insulation from the HX to the MT. During the next brew I will also take readings at the grain bed and see what type of difference I'm getting.

I am trying to avoid measuring from the HX out as I don't have to buy a whole heap of fittings and shit to get it there. At the moment all I have is a hose clamp which is real easy haha.

Is it worth insulating the MT as well? Its SS so I'm not really sure.


----------



## Bizier

Yes, insulate your MT, this will reduce work for your HX element and should reduce lag.


----------



## Yob

insulate as much as you can to aid in temp stability is my goal, Im still using the esky mt so I dont really have to worry about that bit... yet...

That T-Piece I made up is just a bit of silicone hose with a copper T piece, the only drawback is once the probe is siliconed into place it's sort of there for good, but as my HEX is CIP I dont really worry about it  

Cheap but effective and I didnt have to buy all sorts of bits and pieces (bling factor only for me) first runnings was 1093ish last brew.

I find that my MT lags about 1-2'c behind the HEX when ramping so pretty happy with that sort of performance.. Ive actually calibrated my HEX controller to the mashmaster in the MT.. if it's out, at least I will be consistently out  

Yob


----------



## Acasta

Just a quick update:
Went to mess around a bit after advice given and rig now looks like this, shorter (sort of) lines, pump inlet down and probe inline after HX. I just put it under the silicone hose and tightened the shit out of it and no leaks so far.




What materials and from where are people using to insulate their hose lines?

Another thought that crossed my mind is possible channelling during the recirc? Depending on how that steamer thing (wort return) was performing I may have had an issue there. Can anyone see any problems there? (photo above). Can channelling cause an issue with recirc or batch sparging?


----------



## Screwtop

Acasta said:


> Just a quick update:
> Went to mess around a bit after advice given and rig now looks like this, shorter (sort of) lines, pump inlet down and probe inline after HX. I just put it under the silicone hose and tightened the shit out of it and no leaks so far.
> View attachment 56284
> View attachment 56285
> 
> 
> What materials and from where are people using to insulate their hose lines?
> 
> Another thought that crossed my mind is possible channelling during the recirc? Depending on how that steamer thing (wort return) was performing I may have had an issue there. Can anyone see any problems there? (photo above). Can channelling cause an issue with recirc or batch sparging?




Hmm, agree with most above re placement of the probe nearest to the hottest point of the closed system. A few things I would try. Use a rounded volume of around 2.75 - 2.8 L/kg. Add water to the tun and begin recirculation, when the recirculating water temp is stable at your mash temp add the grist and stir only a few turns. After 30 seconds to allow for grits and flour to clear the pump head throttle back the pump output to prevent compaction of the grainbed (I use about 1/4 throttle). Temp will drop back slightly after adding the grist, once the recirculating wort is back up to temp start your mash timer. My best eff 92%+ comes at 75 min rest length, 90 min gives no further improvement, 60 min results in lower eff. After the timer goes off at 75 min lift controller set temp to 77C for the mash out rest. After 10 min or so check recirculating wort temp, if up to mash out temp (77) give the mash a few gentle turns with the mash paddle then set the timer for a 10 min mash out rest. I continuous sparge with water at 77 pumped via the HEX to maintain temp while gravity draining at .5L/min to the kettle. If batch sparging add sparge water as normal. 

Watch mash times, there is a sweet spot with all systems, lengthen out the sacch rest time by 15 min, if you note a gain in eff lengthen again by another 15 min, repeat until there is no further increase in eff. Be sure your recirculating wort is at temp before starting the mash timer. Recirculating slowly reduces channeling and allows for a more open grainbed. As you will now not have high combined temps you should notice a marked improvement in attenuation.

Cheers,

Screwy


----------



## Yob

What pump are you running Screwey? 

I wouldnt think those little brown pumps need much dialling back, least it doesnt seem to on my system anyway... first to admit that Im fairly new to pumps and am still fine tuning small areas  

If you are worried about channeling, at the end of recirc JZ often talks about taking a bread knife to the bed (only 3/4 deep of course) and 'slicing' the bed criss cross to help with this... too much effort for me though  

Yob


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## Screwtop

iamozziyob said:


> What pump are you running Screwey?
> 
> I wouldnt think those little brown pumps need much dialling back, least it doesnt seem to on my system anyway... first to admit that Im fairly new to pumps and am still fine tuning small areas
> 
> If you are worried about channeling, at the end of recirc JZ often talks about taking a bread knife to the bed (only 3/4 deep of course) and 'slicing' the bed criss cross to help with this... too much effort for me though
> 
> Yob




Ordinary old garden variety March, 9L/Min but you don't need em going flat out. And stirring raises flour into suspension which then returns to cover the grainbed in a grey impervious layer, this will cause channeling, you will see a grey muddy layer with a gap around the outside of the grainbed where the wort has been channeling down the sides not through the grainbed.

Screwy


----------



## TidalPete

Screwtop said:


> Hmm, agree with most above re placement of the probe nearest to the hottest point of the closed system. A few things I would try. Use a rounded volume of around 2.75 - 2.8 L/kg. Add water to the tun and begin recirculation, when the recirculating water temp is stable at your mash temp add the grist and stir only a few turns. After 30 seconds to allow for grits and flour to clear the pump head throttle back the pump output to prevent compaction of the grainbed (I use about 1/4 throttle). Temp will drop back slightly after adding the grist, once the recirculating wort is back up to temp start your mash timer. My best eff 92%+ comes at 75 min rest length, 90 min gives no further improvement, 60 min results in lower eff. After the timer goes off at 75 min lift controller set temp to 77C for the mash out rest. After 10 min or so check recirculating wort temp, if up to mash out temp (77) give the mash a few gentle turns with the mash paddle then set the timer for a 10 min mash out rest. I continuous sparge with water at 77 pumped via the HEX to maintain temp while gravity draining at .5L/min to the kettle. If batch sparging add sparge water as normal.
> 
> Watch mash times, there is a sweet spot with all systems, lengthen out the sacch rest time by 15 min, if you note a gain in eff lengthen again by another 15 min, repeat until there is no further increase in eff. Be sure your recirculating wort is at temp before starting the mash timer. Recirculating slowly reduces channeling and allows for a more open grainbed. As you will now not have high combined temps you should notice a marked improvement in attenuation.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Screwy



Agree with Screwy in most of the above although underletting at 35 deg c & ramping up to your next step is another alternative. Probe to be close as possible to HEX outlet & ALL lines the shortest you can make them. Never have to worry about grainbed compaction at full throttle with my 315 except with lots of rye\wheat. Perhaps that's why my eff is sometimes marginally under Screwy's?  :icon_cheers:
Edit ---- TTBOMK Screwy still fly-sparges?


----------



## Yob

Ive been doing a bit of a hybrid runoff on the last few batches... Right or wrong I dunno... I get to Mashout and take my first runnings, batch sparge, turm the bed over a bit, get it out of the corners (esky MT) and recirc for another 10 mins or until clear and or lack of patience steps in  and then fly from there to final volume.. I think a part of it is that my return/sparge arm does not allow for a variable size grist... and Im being anal about getting exactly what I want from the runnings too  

Ive been tooling about with various designs of sparge arms and christ Ive gone through some copper... but I do enjoy the tinkering days too... h34r: 

Yob


----------



## TidalPete

Not saying this is the be-all-end-all of mashing but doughing in @ 3.00Kg\L + a double batch sparge draining @ 1L\min might improve your eff. Worth a try?
Each to his own, etc,etc.


----------



## Yob

might sound a bit whacky but Ive tried both full fly and double batch... Didnt like double batch, too time consuming, full fly, well my equipment doesnt stand up either (return/sparge arm) so I settled on the hybrid above...

I built this ghetto bastard, and Im just about getting there with the numbers but it's a matter of tweaking the system to suit now.. and I do think Im almost there.. (are we ever?)

Last run I was getting first runnings into the 1090's and was actually pretty stoked, mind you Ive been getting into water adjustments too...

phaaark me, ya gotta be a Jack of all Trades for this game, electrician, plumber, boiler maker, builder, scientist.... explorer... etc. etc.. 

:super: wouldnt be dead for quids! 

:icon_cheers:

ed: schperlingh


----------



## Wolfy

Screwtop said:


> Watch mash times, there is a sweet spot with all systems, lengthen out the sacch rest time by 15 min, if you note a gain in eff lengthen again by another 15 min, repeat until there is no further increase in eff. Be sure your recirculating wort is at temp before starting the mash timer. Recirculating slowly reduces channeling and allows for a more open grainbed. As you will now not have high combined temps you should notice a marked improvement in attenuation.


Rather than experimenting with mash-times (going up/down in 15 min increments) wouldn't an iodine/starch test indicate when conversion is complete and the mash had been held long enough?


----------



## Screwtop

Wolfy said:


> Rather than experimenting with mash-times (going up/down in 15 min increments) wouldn't an iodine/starch test indicate when conversion is complete and the mash had been held long enough?




Tried it??

Iodine test will show complete conversion after 20 min.

No more......................getting grumpy.


----------



## TidalPete

Screwtop said:


> No more......................getting grumpy.



:icon_offtopic: 
YOU'RE getting grumpy? <_< :lol:


----------



## Bizier

FWIW I have been really happy with doughing in very thick at 55 (aiming below gelat, though high enough to quickly get to sacch temps), I get it all stirred, thin it out to desired mash thickness, get it recirculating happily and set my first sacch temp.


----------



## Yob

theres somethin us noobs just aint got yet innit? :blink: 

Personally id rather not rely on an iodine test but the results I'm getting into the cube (and glass) as a guide.. phaark me, I need another process like a hole in the head  

Still, I appreciate all the help thus far.. from all you u''k'nutz

pumps.. Its a different way of thinkin/tinkerin innit! :icon_drunk: 

:icon_cheers:


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## Acasta

Thanks alot guys, I just gotta wait now until I brew again to see how I go. I think the cause of the problem would have been due to either channeling or more likely to pumping the wort tun too fast after mash and sparge. I let it go full speed so would have been about 7L in 2min. I'll be aiming for around 0.5L/min as suggested by Screwy by plugging the hose into my kettle ball valve and throttling it down from there.



Screwtop said:


> gravity draining at .5L/min to the kettle



Need to drink more so I can brew more haha :beer: Cheers fellas


----------



## Acasta

TLR Anyone throttling a brown pump return?

Well I did another batch yesterday and it was a pain in the ass.

I think the problem stemmed from the grain bed compacting (%25 Rye) and that lead to a really slow recirc, and eventually taking in air due to the amount of sucktion in the low pressure side of the pump. The bed didn't reach mash out temp after 30min of the hex being at 880C so ended up having to drain first runnings really slowly then mixing it all up and flushing the lines to do mash out. However the grain bed compacted again and so never really rose to Mash out temp for the sparge.

I'm still planning on getting some line insulation and possibly a ball valve on my MT for the wort return to throttle the pump.


----------



## Yob

I do throttle mine but by the voltage.. I got one of those adjustable power packs from jaycar.. currently running my 24V one at 18V with no problems at all... biggest grist Ive done too, I had my concerns but seems to be flying.





:icon_cheers:


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## Acasta

I'm just using the 12V ones, so I'm not really sure what compacted my grain bed. Possibly the rye.
I didn't really have a good look at the grain bed of the first batch I did, but this one was felt very stiff.

Are you draining that MT with gravity or pump yob?

Tossing up between a ball valve or power pack to control the flow, or weather its worth doing at all. Probably easier to get a power pack, but more useful to use a ball valve and adjust at the MT manually.

I could also use a dimmer switch in my control box.


----------



## Yob

Acasta said:


> Are you draining that MT with gravity or pump yob?



gravity wherever possible mate, Gravity from HLT to MT, gravity from MT to kettle.

:icon_cheers:


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## brettprevans

Rye shouldn't't have that much impact on grain bed, it impacts viscosity of wort more. The compacting the bed is more likely the flow speed and temp loss somewhere. Some rice hills would assist as would maybe pulling back flow speed. Ball valve works fine at the exit of march pump.


----------



## Yob

iamozziyob said:


> View attachment 56063
> 
> (inlet at the top and outlet at the bottom)
> 
> At the end of the boil, can anyone see a reason why it couldnt also be used as a chiller? all I would have to do is add some ice to the pot when Im ready to drain off to the fermenter? Hook it up to the kettle and outlet to the FV
> 
> I generally run off quite slow and the thought is that surely it would drop a significant amount of temp with a slow run through the coil.






Glen W said:


> Your problem will be with the volume of water in the HEX compared to the volume of wort. If you had equal volumes, and 100% perfect exchange, you'd end up with water and wort at the mid point between the temperature of the two.
> 
> So if you had 0deg water, and 90deg wort (assuming some natural cooling during the whirlpool), you'd only get down to 45deg. And that's assuming 100% efficency, which you won't get. And assuming equal volumes, but I assume your HEX pot is smaller than your boiler?



I ran a little experiment on the weekend to prove/disprove the theory in this..

I boiled up 25lt of water in the Keggle and put a bag of ice in the HEX unit (now fully modified) and started the run off very slowly to a cube.. the first thing that became apparent was that I needed ice water, not just ice. The water was coming out quite cool which I was well pleased with. Where it fell over was that I was about half way through when all the ice had melted. 

So 'would it work' Yes... is it practicle with the equipment I have and the cost per chill... No..  

was fun to do anyway and Ive learned something... and I needed to clean the Keggle anyway.

:icon_cheers:


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## brettprevans

well herms and herms controller is finally done. might have friday off to buy a few extra parts to plumb

heres the plumming diagram using 2 pumps (little brown and march). I figure utilising the little brown for recirc is a good isdea because of the reduced flow rate, then utlising the march for big volume transfers (like filling MLT, moving to kettle, sparging.

ive searched the thread to see if there was a definitive opinion about whether the heat exchanger should be placed before or after the pump and there seemed to be a 50/50 split. so i went with HX after pump to make pump priming easier.

View attachment CM2_HERMS_plumming_diag.pdf


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## brettprevans

citymorgue2 said:


> well herms and herms controller is finally done. might have friday off to buy a few extra parts to plumb
> 
> heres the plumming diagram using 2 pumps (little brown and march). I figure utilising the little brown for recirc is a good isdea because of the reduced flow rate, then utlising the march for big volume transfers (like filling MLT, moving to kettle, sparging.
> 
> ive searched the thread to see if there was a definitive opinion about whether the heat exchanger should be placed before or after the pump and there seemed to be a 50/50 split. so i went with HX after pump to make pump priming easier.
> 
> View attachment 56739


having just researched the cost of 3 way ball vales (~$98 each), i wont be going with the above design. will just use 1 pump and manually change hoses for the time being. so will next next brew day how the HX and controller go.


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## QldKev

citymorgue2 said:


> having just researched the cost of 3 way ball vales (~$98 each), i wont be going with the above design. will just use 1 pump and manually change hoses for the time being. so will next next brew day how the HX and controller go.



If your happy to change over 1 hose per brew (or even no hose change if you don't underlet), you can plumb it up using just 1 pump and 4 normal valves. 

QldKev


----------



## Wolfy

... or use the brown pump to fly-sparge/circulate the water in the HLT ... etc.


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## Acasta

citymorgue2 said:


> having just researched the cost of 3 way ball vales (~$98 each), i wont be going with the above design. will just use 1 pump and manually change hoses for the time being. so will next next brew day how the HX and controller go.


I've seen people using a T-piece and 2 ball valves of either end which may fit into what your after instead of a 3 way valve.


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## brettprevans

Process system in also gave me a price of $60 + gst for 4 of them and free postage. Still to rich for my blood atm so I will be using it inline, 1 pump for now until I reconfig my plan. But as Kev said configuring it so only one hose change isn't too bad.


----------



## Yob

Im a one pump man CM, change 1 hose from the HEX to the HLT for fly and thats it and as Im just using Barbs (with no problem thus far) its a simple pull push.

Different strokes for different folks though, systems are as varied as the people who build them.  

When are you running it? I might pop over and drool for a while?

Yob


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## QldKev

Wolfy said:


> ... or use the brown pump to fly-sparge/circulate the water in the HLT ... etc.




Good idea. Now I've got to talk myself out of doing it B)


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## brettprevans

well after loads of mucking around and several people checking wiring I finally fixed the "orAL" error message on the sestos D1s-vr-220y pid. long story short the wiring diagrams all seems to be wired for probes not K type thermocouplers. so instead of wiring coupler into 4 & 5, you wire it into 3&4. and presto it works. red into 4 and blue into 3 otherwise if you have it reversed when you add heat the PID reads a temp drop. found that out when i wired it up and then had to reverse it so temp goes up when applying heat.

pic of what i mean.





hopefully this helps someone else if/when they encounter the problem.

now just to calibrate it on the next batch


----------



## cat007

So I'm building a new brew rig and going the HERMS route. I think I'm going to have to pre-heat the water in the boil kettle (gas fired) before transferring to the HLT - I can only use about 3500watts from the 15amp outlet in my garage (240volt over here in New Zealand).

A 3500 watt element will take me about an hour to get 35L of water up to about 75C from room/ground temp.

And that doesn't leave me any spare watts for my separate heat exchanger element.

What are others doing to combat this power problem?


----------



## QldKev

Hunt said:


> So I'm building a new brew rig and going the HERMS route. I think I'm going to have to pre-heat the water in the boil kettle (gas fired) before transferring to the HLT - I can only use about 3500watts from the 15amp outlet in my garage (240volt over here in New Zealand).
> 
> A 3500 watt element will take me about an hour to get 35L of water up to about 75C from room/ground temp.
> 
> And that doesn't leave me any spare watts for my separate heat exchanger element.
> 
> What are others doing to combat this power problem?



Can you run an extension cord to the house to get another power pickup? Even if it's just a normal 10amp GPO then that would be heaps to run a heat exchanger element (obviously element can't exceed 2400w). 

QldKev


----------



## cat007

QldKev said:


> Can you run an extension cord to the house to get another power pickup? Even if it's just a normal 10amp GPO then that would be heaps to run a heat exchanger element (obviously element can't exceed 2400w).
> 
> QldKev



Yeah that might be my only option I think. I'll just run a second power cable.

Cheers

Hunt


----------



## QldKev

Hunt said:


> Yeah that might be my only option I think. I'll just run a second power cable.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Hunt




When I built mine I did think about heating all the water in the kettle with a LPG burner. Then transfer the strike water to the mash tun and heat the remaining water to mash out temps prior to transferring it to the HLT for holding. Then we could use a small electric element to maintain the heat in the HLT. In your case this would allow say 2400w for the Heat exchanger and 1000w (allowing some power for pump etc) in the HLT to hold the temps. 

Bit more moving water around but it would work.

QldKev


----------



## fraser_john

Hunt said:


> So I'm building a new brew rig and going the HERMS route. I think I'm going to have to pre-heat the water in the boil kettle (gas fired) before transferring to the HLT - I can only use about 3500watts from the 15amp outlet in my garage (240volt over here in New Zealand).
> 
> A 3500 watt element will take me about an hour to get 35L of water up to about 75C from room/ground temp.
> 
> And that doesn't leave me any spare watts for my separate heat exchanger element.
> 
> What are others doing to combat this power problem?



I have 2400W element in both HLT and HEX, two PID control the elements. I have a normally closed (NC) relay that prevents the HLT element SSR from being switched on whilst the HEX SSR is on. Means I can run from a single 10amp outlet. 2400W element heats up 38 litre of HLT water to 78c in the time it takes to do a mash.


----------



## cat007

Thanks for that.

Just a question regarding a HERMS setup. If you want your mash to be at, say, 65C - do you set your HEX to 65C and continuously run the HERMS pump? Or do you run the HEX up to about 70C and have the pump turn on/off when it needs to heat the mash up a little?


----------



## Frag_Dog

Hunt said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> Just a question regarding a HERMS setup. If you want your mash to be at, say, 65C - do you set your HEX to 65C and continuously run the HERMS pump? Or do you run the HEX up to about 70C and have the pump turn on/off when it needs to heat the mash up a little?




I run my pump thru ther HEX for the whole mash. I think this aids clarification of the wort. I think getting the whole thing to only recirc when temp presets are reached would be a bit of a stuff around, and you wouldn't get a consistant mash temp.


----------



## cat007

Do you set the water in your HEX to be what your mash temp is? Or do you set it so the HEX element is on only when the liquid returning to the mash tun isn't quite hot enough?


----------



## Yob

Hunt said:


> Do you set the water in your HEX to be what your mash temp is? Or do you set it so the HEX element is on only when the liquid returning to the mash tun isn't quite hot enough?



if you have the temp probe situated at the pump outlet the water in the HEX will be whatever it needs to be to give you your set temp. The important thing is to be reading the wort at the outlet.

Read back through this tread a bit.. I was unclear on this point myself and after following the advice in this thread have it set as mentioned.

Good luck.


----------



## Frag_Dog

Hunt said:


> Do you set the water in your HEX to be what your mash temp is? Or do you set it so the HEX element is on only when the liquid returning to the mash tun isn't quite hot enough?




After my HLT comes up to temp, I fill the HEX with water from the HLT. I then add the water to the Mash Tun, add the grain. Give it a stir and let it sit for ~2mins to settle. I then start my recirc and temp steps. I usually set my HLT to about 60C. Once the grain and Mash Tun absorb some of the heat, the mash is down around 50C. I then ramp up to my mash temp (62-68) over 20 mins.

I've plumbed my system as:

MLT output -> March Pump -> HEX -> HERMS Temp Probe -> Mash Return.


----------



## cat007

Thanks for your replies.


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## Crazydrum

Hello, I'm an Italian homebrewer. I found here a fantastic community and a lot of know how, so that I'm reading here and there.
I want to go into the recirculating thing. Since I've not much space (and I'm on the budget too) I need a compact solution, the two posible setup are RIMS or the Hermit like.
I'm looking for the materials but I have problems fimding the SS pipe. The most similar is a 12mmx11mm (internal) but it's AISI304 and NOT 316. As far as I know this is not good for this use.
The alternatice could be copper but I was told that it's not as good as SS since is more difficoult to clean (I can't use caustic soda) and can get oxidized.

Can you give me some tip?

Additionally what is the tecnique to curve it into a spiral?

Thanks a lot

CD


----------



## dent

Crazydrum said:


> Can you give me some tip?




This is one of the popular options for stainless. You would have a hard time bending these yourself, as I understand an industrial machine is used to bend these. It is possible to bend the copper ones.


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## Crazydrum

dent said:


> This is one of the popular options for stainless. You would have a hard time bending these yourself, as I understand an industrial machine is used to bend these. It is possible to bend the copper ones.


That it's where I started  It's a nice coil but I'd have hard time for the shipment (and cost too).
As far I can see it's 304 SS. Is it ok for brewing?
How should be cleaned?

Thanks

CD


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## Fat Bastard

I'm looking at one of those Gryphon HX coils too. As for cleaning, you can run sodium percarbonate or napisan through it with no worries. I suppose you could use caustic, but it's probably not necessary.

I'm looking at running this in a 20 litre 2400w urn I use as a HLT for sparging as I don't want to be running elements simultaneously. I understand that this will reduce my ramp speeds but swings and roundabouts style, my sparge water will be ready (or close enough) to go immediately following the mash out step. I plan to suspend it dead centre over the element in the HLT, 10mm or so from the bottom. Does anyone have any good reasons why this is a bad idea?

I also have a 8 litre 2000w urn I can use at a pinch, but of course I'd prefer not to have to run the two elements simultaneously as I only have access to 10amp circuits at present and it will be a while before I can set up my cut-down 44 gallon drum brewery.

Cheers,

FB


----------



## felon

Crazydrum said:


> I'm looking for the materials but I have problems fimding the SS pipe. The most similar is a 12mmx11mm (internal) but it's AISI304 and NOT 316. As far as I know this is not good for this use.
> The alternatice could be copper but I was told that it's not as good as SS since is more difficoult to clean (I can't use caustic soda) and can get oxidized.
> 
> 
> CD



304 stainless is fine for food contact. If you fly sparge you can run the water from your HLT through the coil and this will clean it. Caustic cleaners are fine to use on it.


----------



## Fat Bastard

HX in the HLT?

I'm currently building a small 36 litre 3v system as a precursor to building a big 100 litre system to get a handle on the various vagaries of both 3v and HERMS brewing.

I want to use a Gryphon HX in the HLT, a 20 litre/2400w urn, courtesy of Woolbrew. I understand that this won't ramp as quickly as a smaller vessel, due to the larger thermal mass being heated by the element, but it should be on a par with my current system, with that added bonus of no chance of scorched elements etc.

I can think of a couple of advantages of doing it this way, one being the HLT will be close to sparge temp by the time I've raised the mash to MO temps and not needing another element to run the HX (on top of the HLT and electric kettle).

Can anyone think of any reason not to do it this way, apart from the slower ramp time?

Cheers,

FB


----------



## Wolfy

Fat Bastard said:


> Can anyone think of any reason not to do it this way, apart from the slower ramp time?


Slow response time, inefficient and your sparge temperature is determined by the heat exchange which is not ideal.
If you have a Gryphon coil, why not put it in an $8 kettle and have none of the 'issues' of using the HTL for HX-control?
(I'm not sure why you'd run the HLT and an electric kettle at the same time - unless the kettle was the HX-vessel).


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## Fat Bastard

I'm concerned about running 2 2400w elements on a 10A circuit in my new place. I suppose I could heat the HLT prior to firing up the HX for the mash, then let it get to temp while running the mash off, but ideally I would like to be able to have everything happening simultaneously.

The plan is to run the HX dead centre of the urn and as close as possible to the element, which is probably the best place for it. How far ahead of the wort temp do you suppose the water in the HLT/HX would run? Obviously if it's 95 degrees and I want to sparge at 75, waiting around for it to cool down would be too much of a pain.


----------



## Wolfy

Fat Bastard said:


> I'm concerned about running 2 2400w elements on a 10A circuit in my new place. I suppose I could heat the HLT prior to firing up the HX for the mash, then let it get to temp while running the mash off, but ideally I would like to be able to have everything happening simultaneously.


Run an extension cord from another circuit to power the HEX.


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## brettprevans

Fat Bastard said:


> I'm concerned about running 2 2400w elements on a 10A circuit in my new place. I suppose I could heat the HLT prior to firing up the HX for the mash, then let it get to temp while running the mash off, but ideally I would like to be able to have everything happening simultaneously.
> 
> The plan is to run the HX dead centre of the urn and as close as possible to the element, which is probably the best place for it. How far ahead of the wort temp do you suppose the water in the HLT/HX would run? Obviously if it's 95 degrees and I want to sparge at 75, waiting around for it to cool down would be too much of a pain.


No need to worry. Ur circuit board will trip if u run them at the same time. 10A + 10A wired in series (ie off same circuit) =20A. Normal circuit is 10A. 

Wolfy's solution is the way to go.


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## Fat Bastard

Little bit of background info... I'm moving myself, the missus, and my brewing into a house from a 2 bed flat with everything on one circuit, so I'm still thinking in that mindset!

So, after having a squizz at the new place, it looks like I have at least 2 separate 10A circuits (house and granny flat/garage), and possibly one of 15 or 20amp (or at least I'm hoping so, it's been running a welder) that is down under the house. Initially I'll be stuck brewing outside in the courtyard between the garage and house, so running on 2 circuits is entirely feasible.

I have an Aldi urn that is claimed to be 8.8 litres, but holds 7 and has a 2000w element. I think I'll use that for the time being as:

A ) I've already got it
and
B ) it's shiny stainless and looks the part, unlike a $9 kettle.

A package of stainless fittings and bits turned up today, so one way or another, this is happening! Just waiting on the Beerbelly false bottom and wort return (which may, ahem, take some time)

Need to re-jig the controller too, so I can run the HX and HLT from the same box. Eventually I want the controller to run a larger, automated system, so this smaller system will be the proving ground for that.

Cheers,

FB


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## QldKev

Have a look at the fuse board, it should tell you a bit. 

My house has 2 x 20amp circuit breakers for power points alone. The GPO is still rated at 10amp, but it means with a couple of extension cords I can find a lot of power. Also depending on the house a lot are wired in 2 sides. 1 of the 20amps feeds our carport and bedrooms, and the other feeds the kitchen and lounge. 

With the granny flat you may have a separate power board.

You may have a lot more power available than you realize. 

QldKev


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## Fat Bastard

Kev, 

it looks like this may be the case. As the house is a 1950's owner/builder jobbie, we're going to get it rewired for peace of mind anyway, so I'll ask the lecco if it's feasible to have some uprated circuits and outlets in strategic points where I might be wanting to brew/weld in future.

I fitted the Gryphon HX to the Aldi urn over the weekend, and it's like it's made for it. Put a couple of holes through the lid to take some compression fittings and it holds the bottom of the coil 10mm off the concealed element. I wish everything was so easy!

I'll probably test it this weekend. Should I have the urn filled right up, or only run enough water to cover the coiled part of the HX? and this might be an obvious question, which direction should I run it? Cold to the top of the coil or cold to the bottom?

Cheers,

FB.


----------



## QldKev

Fat Bastard said:


> Kev,
> 
> it looks like this may be the case. As the house is a 1950's owner/builder jobbie, we're going to get it rewired for peace of mind anyway, so I'll ask the lecco if it's feasible to have some uprated circuits and outlets in strategic points where I might be wanting to brew/weld in future.
> 
> I fitted the Gryphon HX to the Aldi urn over the weekend, and it's like it's made for it. Put a couple of holes through the lid to take some compression fittings and it holds the bottom of the coil 10mm off the concealed element. I wish everything was so easy!
> 
> I'll probably test it this weekend. Should I have the urn filled right up, or only run enough water to cover the coiled part of the HX? and this might be an obvious question, which direction should I run it? Cold to the top of the coil or cold to the bottom?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> FB.



Cold to the bottom, good luck with the sparky.

QldKev


----------



## mxd

Fat Bastard said:


> Should I have the urn filled right up, or only run enough water to cover the coiled part of the HX?




If you just cover the coil you should get quicker ramp times, element only needs to heat 2 ltrs of water not 7 ltrs.

I don't know if it matters which way the wort flows ??


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## altstart

Hi people
I have been useing a herms for quite a while now and my normal practise is to pump PBW through the system and flush it out with hot water after the PBW, after use. To store the system untill needed for the next brew I simply put the outlet hose on the inlet. I have noticed that I need to flush the system prior to useing it on brew day. Given that I will be flushing the system on brew day can I store it with the PBW sealed inside the system or is this prolonged exposure to PBW going to effect the S/S coil, silicon food grade hoses or my March pump. 

Cheers Altstart B)


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## hsb

I would guess PBW would damage the silicon hoses if left for a long period of time.
AFAIK you shouldn't store S/S filled with PBW (or other cleaning agents) for extended periods?

Overnight would be OK but between brews, I would rinse the system.

These are the PBW instructions:

CIRCULATION CLEANING: Use 1 to 3 ounces per gallon depending on soil load.
Heat to 130 to 180 F for 30 minutes.

CARBON REMOVAL: Use 6 to 8 ounces per gallon of water. Heat to 140 F for 4 hours or allow to soak cold overnight.


----------



## dubbadan

I recently got a big pot & burner in order to start doing double batches. I now have an electric keggle thats not being used and I am wondering if its worthwhile using in a HERMS setup. I had an idea this evening and did a sketch:



The solenoids would allow recirculation of wort during mashing, then after mash out would use the HE water to sparge. I'm aiming to eventually have it set up so I can chuck in the strike water and grain and come back to fire up the burner under the kettle, partly to save time on brew day, partly for the fun of making it work. I also would like to use what I have without buying more equipment if possible. Any advice/suggestions would be welcome, particularly on what kind of solenoids are good for this purpose and where I could get them.


----------



## squirt in the turns

dubbadan said:


> I recently got a big pot & burner in order to start doing double batches. I now have an electric keggle thats not being used and I am wondering if its worthwhile using in a HERMS setup. I had an idea this evening and did a sketch:
> View attachment 58163
> 
> The solenoids would allow recirculation of wort during mashing, then after mash out would use the HE water to sparge. I'm aiming to eventually have it set up so I can chuck in the strike water and grain and come back to fire up the burner under the kettle, partly to save time on brew day, partly for the fun of making it work. I also would like to use what I have without buying more equipment if possible. Any advice/suggestions would be welcome, particularly on what kind of solenoids are good for this purpose and where I could get them.



My 2c:
You'll want the pump after the mash tun (between the MT outlet and the HX). The setup in your sketch won't be capable of delivering wort from the MT outlet to the HX. The pump really needs to be at the lowest point in the system, especially if it's a non-self-priming pump like a March pump.

Why do you want to use solenoids? If you're not looking to spend a lot more, just use plain old manual ball valves. They'll be more reliable and the system will be a hell of a lot easier to set up. Get some camlock fittings or quick disconnects for changing over the hoses instead of trying to plumb in 3-way solenoid operated valves.


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## dubbadan

squirt in the turns said:


> My 2c:
> You'll want the pump after the mash tun (between the MT outlet and the HX). The setup in your sketch won't be capable of delivering wort from the MT outlet to the HX. The pump really needs to be at the lowest point in the system, especially if it's a non-self-priming pump like a March pump.


Yeah of course. I was tired and not thinking straight.


squirt in the turns said:


> Why do you want to use solenoids?


It's in the text in my original post...


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## dubbadan

dubbadan said:


> The solenoids would allow recirculation of wort during mashing, then after mash out would use the HE water to sparge. I'm aiming to eventually have it set up so I can chuck in the strike water and grain and come back to fire up the burner under the kettle, partly to save time on brew day, partly for the fun of making it work.


Presuming the pump is in the right place, would a PID control all this?


dubbadan said:


> I also would like to use what I have without buying more equipment if possible


Except for a couple of 3-way solenoid valves, a pump and various other fittings and hoses... :huh:


----------



## squirt in the turns

dubbadan said:


> Presuming the pump is in the right place, would a PID control all this?



Yep, a PID using a solid-state relay (with heatsink - very important!) to switch the HX/HLT element on and off. There's heaps of info in this thread and all over this forum and elsewhere about this stuff. Put the temperature probe inline at the outlet of the HX (which should be the hottest part of the system).

I understand your desire to combine the HX and one of your HLTs, but there is a trend towards using a smaller dedicated vessel as the HX. Some advantages of this are:

Smaller volume of liquid takes less time to heat up, making temperature steps faster
With the HX coil in the HLT, your sparge water is locked at the same temperature as your last rest. This may or may not be a problem, but with a dedicated HX it's not even a consideration
More bling (hopefully stainless) in your brewery


----------



## dubbadan

squirt in the turns said:


> Yep, a PID using a solid-state relay (with heatsink - very important!) to switch the HX/HLT element on and off. There's heaps of info in this thread and all over this forum and elsewhere about this stuff. Put the temperature probe inline at the outlet of the HX (which should be the hottest part of the system).
> 
> I understand your desire to combine the HX and one of your HLTs, but there is a trend towards using a smaller dedicated vessel as the HX. Some advantages of this are:
> 
> Smaller volume of liquid takes less time to heat up, making temperature steps faster
> With the HX coil in the HLT, your sparge water is locked at the same temperature as your last rest. This may or may not be a problem, but with a dedicated HX it's not even a consideration
> More bling (hopefully stainless) in your brewery


I'm about 1/2 way through reading this thread after a week or so of scanning during work breaks (!) but there's not much so far about using a PID to trigger solenoids. I probably will go with a smaller HE.


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## squirt in the turns

dubbadan said:


> I'm about 1/2 way through reading this thread after a week or so of scanning during work breaks (!) but there's not much so far about using a PID to trigger solenoids. I probably will go with a smaller HE.



Ok, apologies if I've misunderstood, but I think I see what you think you're trying to achieve with the solenoid valves, which is to control the heat of the MT by metering or switching on and off the flow? I'm not aware of any recirculating systems that operate in this way. You want the flow to remain constant and steady so that the grain bed forms a filter (as when sparging) giving you nice clear wort. The PID is used to switch the heating element in the HX as required to maintain or raise the temperature of the mash, measuring the temperature of the wort as it leaves the HX.

You only need the solenoids (or valves of any kind) to operate at the beginning and end of the mash when you're diverting liquid to different places.

You can control the solenoids using some kind of all in one electronic system. I believe there are people out there doing very cool stuff like this with BCS and Arduino based systems, which can also be programmed to act as a PID. However, this is way more time consuming (and probably expensive) to build than a simple PID system with hoses and valves that you manually operate as required.


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## kymba

dubbadan said:


> I'm about 1/2 way through reading this thread after a week or so of scanning during work breaks (!) but there's not much so far about using a PID to trigger solenoids. I probably will go with a smaller HE.



dubbadan, you'd probably need a ramp/soak pid like an auber. You can program the alarm/s to go off at different times / temps. Just connect your solenoid to the alarm output


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## dubbadan

squirt in the turns said:


> Ok, apologies if I've misunderstood, but I think I see what you think you're trying to achieve with the solenoid valves, which is to control the heat of the MT by metering or switching on and off the flow? I'm not aware of any recirculating systems that operate in this way. You want the flow to remain constant and steady so that the grain bed forms a filter (as when sparging) giving you nice clear wort. The PID is used to switch the heating element in the HX as required to maintain or raise the temperature of the mash, measuring the temperature of the wort as it leaves the HX.
> 
> You only need the solenoids (or valves of any kind) to operate at the beginning and end of the mash when you're diverting liquid to different places.
> 
> You can control the solenoids using some kind of all in one electronic system. I believe there are people out there doing very cool stuff like this with BCS and Arduino based systems, which can also be programmed to act as a PID. However, this is way more time consuming (and probably expensive) to build than a simple PID system with hoses and valves that you manually operate as required.


No, its really just so I can leave the system to conduct a programmed mash and sparge without having to attend to it until it's time to boil. Maybe separate outlets from the mash tun would be another way to do it - one connected to the HE for recirculation and one going to the kettle. In that case I'd be using 3 pumps: recirc, sparge in and sparge out.


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## dubbadan

Here's a revised sketch of what I would like to do


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## mikec

All the cool kids are going HERMS! Now I am too.
Hopefully you guys can shed some light on a couple of niggly questions I have.

So why HERMS?
I've moved into a slightly bigger place and now have my own store room / brew room next to the garage.
So I decided no more stuffing about with buckets in pots on the stove, and trying to hoist the bloody things. I also found it difficult to get a consistent temperature throughout my pot when there was a bloody great bucket in there.
Upgrading to full 3V should give me the ability to do double batches or two brews in a single day.
Using a HERM-IT controller will hopefully make step mashing less hands on.

So, I did some trawling and picked up a 57L cooler for $155, and a cheap chinee urn for a HLT for $100. Still have my 40L aluminium pot as the kettle, which now has a 2200w element in it. When Ross gets new stock of the 70L SS pots I'll upgrade, so I can do double batches.

Made my way to Gryphon for a Herms coil, controller, false bottom, and a shed-load of stainless fittings.
Nev's service is great. In return I'm putting his kids through college.

I've spent the past few days putting it all together. 

First I cleaned all the bits.



Hooked up the HLT and MLT.



Target $12 jug with HERMS coil inside, hidden behind the MLT.



I'm a bit worried about the fittings on the cooler. They're steel and heavy, while the inner wall of the cooler, which they are mounted too, is soft thin plastic.



In the build process I managed to break the brown pump due to, ahh, enthusiastic use of shifting spanners. Here you see it mounted using the silver gaffer method. More brownies are on the way.

Last night I wanted to do a test run with just water, checking for and plugging any leaks, and then giving the HERM-IT a mash run from start to finish.

I had a lot of trouble getting the pump primed and flowing.
For one thing, there is an air pocket in the hose and fittings to the false bottom. I eventually stuck my hand in and flipped it, letting the air escape. Not too keen on doing this every time - all sorts of crap could be on your hands.
Once water filled the hose from the MLT to the pump, and back out a bit, I switched on the pump. It struggled. It could barely push any more water through and in the hose exiting the pump I could see the water level as not much higher than the level in the tun. It never reached the HEX.
I had to remove my professional silver mounting system and move the pump lower, change the angles around to let air flow though, wave it around a few more times stopping and starting the pump, before water finally started flowing through the HEX and back up to the MLT.

Any tips here folks? I want to mount the pump properly and so all the moving and angling and maneuvering about is not going to work out long term. Mount it lower maybe - but then I'm increasing the head that the pump has to work against.

For the HERMS coil, buggered if I can find details or guidelines as to which direction the wort should travel. Lot's pictures in the various HERMS threads of enclosed HEX cannisters... although after examining a few diagrams I am starting to think it should be travelling UP the coil. I had it the other way around.


----------



## squirt in the turns

mikec said:


> I had a lot of trouble getting the pump primed and flowing.
> For one thing, there is an air pocket in the hose and fittings to the false bottom. I eventually stuck my hand in and flipped it, letting the air escape. Not too keen on doing this every time - all sorts of crap could be on your hands.
> Once water filled the hose from the MLT to the pump, and back out a bit, I switched on the pump. It struggled. It could barely push any more water through and in the hose exiting the pump I could see the water level as not much higher than the level in the tun. It never reached the HEX.
> I had to remove my professional silver mounting system and move the pump lower, change the angles around to let air flow though, wave it around a few more times stopping and starting the pump, before water finally started flowing through the HEX and back up to the MLT.
> 
> Any tips here folks? I want to mount the pump properly and so all the moving and angling and maneuvering about is not going to work out long term. Mount it lower maybe - but then I'm increasing the head that the pump has to work against.
> 
> For the HERMS coil, buggered if I can find details or guidelines as to which direction the wort should travel. Lot's pictures in the various HERMS threads of enclosed HEX cannisters... although after examining a few diagrams I am starting to think it should be travelling UP the coil. I had it the other way around.



It's having a HERMS that _makes_ you cool!  

I still have priming issues with both my march pump and little brown pump. I've plumbed my March like Morebeer sell them, with a ball valve on a T before the inlet, but even that doesn't always solve the issues. I intended to hard-mount both pumps but at this stage I'm still finding that the ability to waggle them around can help get them primed. Definitely eliminate as many bends in the plumbing as possible and keep hoses/pipes short too. Mounting it low is the way to go. I'm not an expert in fluid dynamics but I'd say your concerns about mounting lower leading to increased head pressure are unfounded. Yes, as you go lower, the pump has further to push the liquid back up, but it is offset by gravity working in your favour on the inlet side. Someone who understands this stuff better than me will probably jump in and refute that with a ninja engineering explanation.

With regard to inlet/outlet on the coil: I'm not familiar with Nev's stainless coils, but you want to plumb it so that the path of least resistance for any trapped air bubbles leads toward the outlet. If your pump has to fight bubbles, it'll kill your flow.


----------



## mxd

i fill the mlt and hlt through the pump (with a hose) on the occasional (once every 10-15 brews) I get an air bubble I cant move, I just turn the valves off on the MLT/HLT/Kettle and squirt some more water in with a hose.


----------



## squirt in the turns

dubbadan said:


> No, its really just so I can leave the system to conduct a programmed mash and sparge without having to attend to it until it's time to boil. Maybe separate outlets from the mash tun would be another way to do it - one connected to the HE for recirculation and one going to the kettle. In that case I'd be using 3 pumps: recirc, sparge in and sparge out.



Ah, sorry, I did misunderstand your reason for using the solenoids. I think the Auber PIDs that kymba refers to have 2 alarm relays, so you should be able to control 2 valves with it (although maybe you only need 1 relay as both valves need to be actuated simultaneously? It would depend on how the alarms can be programmed (which in this case is based on a timer as opposed to a process variable). I've not bought controllers from Auber, but I have sent them a few questions about their products and they've been helpful, so if you can't figure it out from the manual (available on their website), shoot them a mail and they'll be able to tell you if the PID can be programmed to do what you want.

Not sure how you'd do more than one outlet from the MT. I'd think you'd want a single outlet from the MT, then a 3 way valve which could possibly be a solenoid valve. If your rig is partially gravity-fed then you should be able to design it around 1 pump, as in your diagram. Even single-tier rigs only need 2 pumps, and even then only for fly sparging.



dubbadan said:


> Except for a couple of 3-way solenoid valves, a pump and various other fittings and hoses... :huh:



I sense that your goal of doing this without a lot of additional expenditure is slipping away fast  

There are others on this forum that have attempted automated/semi-automated brewery builds, with varying degrees of success. I don't think any of them found it quick, cheap or easy. Personally, I'm pretty pleased with my build. Temperature (or heating output duty-cycle) of the HLT, mash (via HX) and boil kettle is all controlled from one panel (which houses an STC-1000 and 2 Sestos PIDs) from which I also manually switch my pumps. Valves and hose changes are all manual, so brewday is still very much hands-on. I kind of already wish I'd gone with some kind of embedded controller like I mentioned in my earlier post, so that I could control it from my laptop, have it spit out temperature graphs and all that, but if I had I'd still be tweaking the programming instead of making beer. It would however have been scalable and flexible so that I could add automated solenoids and other toys later on if I was feeling masochistic. :lol:


----------



## mikec

squirt in the turns said:


> It's having a HERMS that _makes_ you cool!


Cool wishes it could be more like me.



squirt in the turns said:


> With regard to inlet/outlet on the coil: I'm not familiar with Nev's stainless coils, but you want to plumb it so that the path of least resistance for any trapped air bubbles leads toward the outlet. If your pump has to fight bubbles, it'll kill your flow.


That's what I was thinking. Wort should come in from the bottom, to push air up through the coil.

Round 2 testing this weekend.
Might even get around to making beer.


----------



## stillscottish

I think the big loop of hose from mash tun to pump will give you problems. My brown pump is directly below my mash tun on about 30 cm of hose. Gravity does the priming for me and although it takes a couple of minutes to purge the lines, once it's going the only problem I have is with throttling back the flow to stop compaction.

Still a little bit ghetto but there's a bunch of camlocks etc in the mail.


----------



## Yob

What have you got heating the little HEX pot Scottish? How much copper in the coil?


----------



## QldKev

Yob said:


> What have you got heating the little HEX pot Scottish? How much copper in the coil?



He just lifts his kilt, the pot gets hot every time


:lol:


----------



## stillscottish

Yob said:


> What have you got heating the little HEX pot Scottish? How much copper in the coil?




Small Kmart SS stock pot ($7?), kettle element from an old kettle (I knew if I kept it for 20 yrs it would come in handy one day) and the copper is just a 3m coil of 1/2" from Bunnings ($15). I get 1 degree/min ramp time.

To continue the cheap-arse theme I sealed the temp probe that came with the stc 1000 into a bit of brass tubing I had to make a waterproof probe.

Cheers

Campbell


----------



## winkle

stillscottish said:


> I think the big loop of hose from mash tun to pump will give you problems. My brown pump is directly below my mash tun on about 30 cm of hose. Gravity does the priming for me and although it takes a couple of minutes to purge the lines, once it's going the only problem I have is with throttling back the flow to stop compaction.
> 
> Still a little bit ghetto but there's a bunch of camlocks etc in the mail.
> 
> View attachment 58247


 :icon_offtopic: 

Forced out of the house and into the pool enclosure I see  
(Not a bad idea having a swim whilst watching the HEX do its thing - hot sweaty brewing be gone!)


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## mikec

A question for the HERMSperts.

Do you leave your pump running for the whole mash, or do you only run it during ramp times, and switch it off for the rests?


----------



## mxd

mikec said:


> A question for the HERMSperts.
> 
> Do you leave your pump running for the whole mash, or do you only run it during ramp times, and switch it off for the rests?




I run the whole time, the idea of HERMS or RIMS is to hold the "rest" temp, the ramp is just an added bonus


----------



## squirt in the turns

mikec said:


> A question for the HERMSperts.
> 
> Do you leave your pump running for the whole mash, or do you only run it during ramp times, and switch it off for the rests?



Run it for the whole mash. The idea is to maintain temperature during each rest. The wort flowing through the heat exchanger achieves this, with the element switching on as required to nudge the temperature back up when it starts to fall.

If you were to switch the pump off and leave the temperature controller to do its normal thing (i.e. you don't intervene and manually cut power to the element too), your element would boil the water in your heat exchanger as none of the thermal output of the element would be read by the temperature sensor , which measures the wort as it flows through the system.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

mikec said:


> A question for the HERMSperts.
> 
> Do you leave your pump running for the whole mash, or do you only run it during ramp times, and switch it off for the rests?


Whole time as it maintains and ramps the temps.
Nev


----------



## Truman42

squirt in the turns said:


> If you were to switch the pump off and leave the temperature controller to do its normal thing (i.e. you don't intervene and manually cut power to the element too), your element would boil the water in your heat exchanger as none of the thermal output of the element would be read by the temperature sensor , which measures the wort as it flows through the system.



+1 Yep did that by mistake and had fire an brimstone squirting out the top of my herms steam vent hole.


----------



## mikec

Got it, cheers blokes.


----------



## Truman42

Your question is a good one though MikeC as you could always switch off the pump and herms once you reached your next mash temp and just let the insulated mash tun hold the temp for you. Assuming your mash tun was well insulated you probably would only lose .5 C over a 60 min mash and less for smaller steps. This would certainly prolong the life of your pump, especially if you use one of those brown pumps like many of us.

However the reason I like to keep the pump running is to filter the wort through the grain bed. My wort goes from a murky cloudy colour to very clear by the time Im ready to transfer to the kettle.


----------



## tinnyhaha

Hi all,

I,m getting ready to coil my herms out of 1/2" stainless for installation in my HLT.
I was wondering is there any detrimental affect from using 90 deg. compression fittings for the connections through the side walls.
I read somewhere that the herms should be of open curves so as not to cause oxigenation the hot wort.


----------



## Wolfy

Tinnyhaha said:


> I was wondering is there any detrimental affect from using 90 deg. compression fittings for the connections through the side walls.
> I read somewhere that the herms should be of open curves so as not to cause oxigenation the hot wort.


If the tube/pipe/fittings are all water/air tight (which they have to be to work properly without leaking) then I can't imagine how oxygenation will occur.
However, sharp fittings do/can/could more resistance, requiring more pressure for the pump to pump the wort through - however on a home-brew scale, I doubt it's much of a concern.


----------



## Yob

I just thought I'd post a photo of the latest build of my HEX unit, designed as CIP it's 3m of copper in a BigW pot that is used with an OTS element.

I cannot complain with the ramp times that seem to be almost on PAR with the HERMIT but I can see that I would use a little extra power.

In the base you will notice a length of copper, this has holes drilled in the bottom and in fact has another elbow on the end,upward facing. I use this when the recirc is over by adding some Perc/Met (home made ~PBW solution) to the pot, change the hose from the MT to a tap on the pot and recirc through the coil and back into a return barb while the water is still 70 odd 'c, its a pretty simple process and means that the water I use to heat the HEX is the same as I use to clean it.

It's kinda hard to explain but simple to use. All I really need for it now is a PID controller... eventually  

To clean further I recirc STARSAN through the coil both ways. Damn but it comes up shiny!! 





:icon_cheers:


----------



## NDH

First wet run of the rig after near on 18 months of R&D. 3 way L-port valves worked a treat and only a couple of threads to re tape.

What would I have done differently?

-a valve on the inlet of the pump, I'm learning how to best prime the pump to get bubbles etc out but I can't help but think a valve nice and close to the pump would help.
-bigger kettle to allow for full volume double batches rather than what will likely be slightly concentrated double batches topped up in the fermenter.
-temp probe in the hex itself rather than just the hex outlet, not only for automation but also manual control as a reference when pre heating.
-camlocks or similar to the hex to allow quick removal. As the in and out are top mounted the ability to remove the hex and turn it upside down to drain would be nice.

I don't think we will ever be finished 'building' it. The above mentioned will likely be addressed eventually, there are already plans to timber clad the MLT!

Still haven't got the brewtroller sorted but I'm under the impression the next firmware release from brewtroller will fully support 3V + Hex so I'm holding off.

Also like to thank everyone who has shared their knowledge on this thread and the AHB community in general, the motivation and knowledge I have drawn from here made this build a reality.





Cheers

NDH


----------



## Yob

damn thats purdy

:icon_drool2: :icon_drool2:


----------



## Truman42

I am very impressed with how much clearer my beer is since going from BIAB to a 3v herms system.

herms rocks... :icon_cheers:


----------



## mikec

Going from BIAB to HERMS, definitely clearer wort here...

I'm having a bit of fun getting my flow rate happening properly. Essentially after a while the grain is so compacted that it gets stuck. I have to get in there with the mash spoon and mix it up again, scraping the grain off the false bottom to get things flowing again.
I did a double-header on the weekend, brewed a batch Saturday evening, and another Sunday morning. First batch seemed to go OK, second one got stuck twice.

The details:

Equipment:
57L cylindrical cooler, 11" false bottom, brown pump, HERMS coil in a 1.7L kettle.

Batch 1
85% pilsner, 10% wheat malt, 5% crystal.
Gap on the mill set to 1.2mm. (increased from 1.1mm the previous batch).
20L batch, about 4.2kg of grain, 14L of water. 1 hour mash at 66C, then ramp to 76C for 10 min, then fly sparge.
This one went OK.

Batch 2
71% pilsner, 15% munich, 7% caraamber, 7% wheat malt.
Gap on mill 1.2mm.
20L batch, 5.5kg grain, 18L water. 10 mins at 54C, 60 mins at 64C, 10 mins at 76C, fly sparge.
This is the one that kept getting stuck.

So the main differences between the two batches:
- 20% more grain (with corresponding increase in water)
- Lower temperature step, and ramp from 54 to 64C. The first time it stuck was during this ramp, at around 57C (and of course the system, reading temp from the coil, figured it had reached 66 and powered into the sacc rest step).
- Munich & Caraamber

Bit worried if the limit of the system is 5kg of grain... I set it up to do double batches!

The crush at 1.2mm looked pretty good to my mind. everything cracked open, plenty of intact husks (with no innards) some white chunks and some powder.
I would have taken a photo of the crush, but by the time there was a problem, it was part-way through mashing.
Does anyone here go larger than 1.2mm?


----------



## hsb

My crush and grist to water ratios are around the same and I have had stuck mash problems in the past. 
I find that letting the mash sit after stirring before starting the pump really helps. It lets everything settle naturally into a bed, rather than sucking it down and compacting. Also throttling the flow back as much as practical.


----------



## mikec

hsb said:


> My crush and grist to water ratios are around the same and I have had stuck mash problems in the past.
> I find that letting the mash sit after stirring before starting the pump really helps. It lets everything settle naturally into a bed, rather than sucking it down and compacting. Also throttling the flow back as much as practical.


Cheers, I'll give that a try.


----------



## hsb

No worries, good luck, totally frustrating getting a stuck mash when pumping. I fiddled with crush, false bottom, manifold, return, pump speed etc. but concluded it has more to do with pulling on the grain bed before it has settled naturally, sucking it down into a plug. Then once flow is reduced the tendency is to bump the pump up a bit, just making it worse. I inverted a domed false bottom twice (ended up back as it started!) by doing exactly that.

I also drain off the first litre or so using gravity into a jug before beginning recirculation and just dump that back on top, just to check everything's clear/shift any stray grain husks etc.

I go up to around 4:1 grain to water ratio but I batch sparge and am lazy in only wanting to do 2 lots of runnings in total, so 2 equal additions of water (minus grain absorption)
Despite capacity to do more, I always do single batches, just don't drink enough to need to do more.

It definitely shouldn't be your crush, mine is 1mm in a keggle/false bottom set-up.


----------



## hsb

Here's the last crush/grainbed I took a picture of..


----------



## mikec

Makes sense. As does draining off the first litre to get rid of chunks. These always end up stuck in the wort return...


----------



## mikec

hsb said:


> Here's the last crush/grainbed I took a picture of..


My grain is definitely more "broken up" than that. Are you hand-winding or using a drill/motor?
I don't know what speed my drill runs at but it's on about 3 or 4 out of 10, and the max speed is 550rpm. Basically as slow as it will go without jamming.


----------



## hsb

Same as you - using a variable speed drill on lowest setting, still way too fast, my crush can come out more broken up. Gap is set to 1mm. 
I also wet condition the malt when I can be bothered.
Here's another slightly more broken up one


----------



## browndog

Truman said:


> I am very impressed with how much clearer my beer is since going from BIAB to a 3v herms system.
> 
> herms rocks... :icon_cheers:
> 
> View attachment 59721



Them's fighting words Truman, careful Lad.


----------



## Ironhorse

For anyone who decides to use a Birko 5lt urn with Nev's Herm coil (saw a question about it in one of these pages somewhere...) - be careful to check the height of the coil when you attach it to the lid... I had to go through several iterations, including cutting down the length of the inlet and outlet side to stop it contacting the Urns heating coil. Might be a newbie thing of course, but something I noticed nevertheless. For those going "why did you spend so much on a f$&@ing urn to use for a HERMs"......I didn't - got it at a irresistible price on a friendly auction site....very handy piece of kit, just set the temp on the Urns temp control, and it gets the HX there very quickly...now to actually brew using it! Ghetto brewery with bling now..of course, I had to use an old pizza tray as a lid so as to not wreck the Birko lid...


----------



## tinnyhaha

OK here it is! After jerking around with the pros & cons of building a HLT (with internal HERMS coil) for 3 months, its finally finished.
I did, however overlook 1 very important issue. Check out the pics and see if you can see the problem that I only discovered during my first test drive.


----------



## RobW

Tinnyhaha said:


> OK here it is! After jerking around with the pros & cons of building a HLT (with internal HERMS coil) for 3 months, its finally finished.
> I did, however overlook 1 very important issue. Check out the pics and see if you can see the problem that I only discovered during my first test drive.


You left the ball valve open?

Nice rig btw.


----------



## tinnyhaha

Oh s**t I did too. Wrong answer though.
The bottom rim of a keg has 4 holes in it for what ever reason and when I fire up my spiral burner it produces so much
heat each of the holes becomes a full on blow torch.
I have to shield my ball valve and thermo with several layers of foil so as not to melt them


----------



## Crazydrum

Hi all,
For my HERMS I ended up using a copper coil as the ones that I've seen here.
What can I use to clean it ?
Is Napisan ok with copper?
Please suggest products components or international available brands since I'm in Italy.

Thanks for your help

Al


----------



## Yob

you can use nappisan in a pinch, Pure Perc is better, Perc/Metasillicate mix better yet, (Pump in both directions) and then flush with hot water and then Starsan (Both directions)... bright as brand new.

Look to your local chemical supplier for the above listed. (reputable home brew store for the Starsan)

Cheers


----------



## Truman42

Yob whats the advantage of using Starsan.? (Honest question)

If were going to clean and then store for a while, wont the sanitising action of the starsan be lost as bugs floating around in our brew sheds climb in to party over the next week/month until we brew again? Also as its on the preboil side is sanitising necassary?

Ive always just cleaned my herms coil, lines, pump etc with PBW recirculated from the HLT while doing my boil. Then I rinse and let dry. On brew day I pump a litre of water through to flush the lines.
i only sanitise my plate chiller, fermenter and other post boil utensils.


----------



## Yob

drop an old oxidised bit of copper into starsan for half an hour and see what happens to it  A similar effect Im sure you have noticed with a manifold after the mash sometimes?

I prefer to give all my copper a bit of a soak (I do this while milling etc) so it comes up shiny *before* using it..

I thought you had a stainless HERMIT Truman?


----------



## Truman42

Yes i do have a stainless HERMIT.

Ok Im with you now, this is for copper coils. I did the same to clean my copper manifold when using my esky mashtun.


----------



## tinnyhaha

Vinegar works a treat. You'll need to wear sunnies





*Cheers*
*Tinny*


----------



## searly333

Hi Guys,

Was thinking about expanding my rig to a 2 or possibly 3V system based on the HERMS principle. I was considering using my plate chiller as the HX and using my existing RTD and PID controller setup in my mash tun to control the element in the HLT thereby varying the temperature in the HLT to control mash temp.

Any thoughts, ideas or problems that could be foreseen with a set up like this?

Cheers

Luke


----------



## zanussi

My HERMS flow can stall if some grain gets in the wrong place, it might be hard to stop the grains getting stuck in the HX plate and stopping the whole show.

Cheers Neil


----------



## squirt in the turns

Virgin Brewer said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Was thinking about expanding my rig to a 2 or possibly 3V system based on the HERMS principle. I was considering using my plate chiller as the HX and using my existing RTD and PID controller setup in my mash tun to control the element in the HLT thereby varying the temperature in the HLT to control mash temp.
> 
> Any thoughts, ideas or problems that could be foreseen with a set up like this?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Luke


As zanussi says, your plate chiller could clog very easily. If you go with this idea, you'd want to manually recirculate before you add the plate chiller to the loop in order to set the grain bed.

Also, you'd need to run 2 pumps, one to pump wort through the plate chiller, and one to pump hot water through it. I would think that using the PID to control the element in the HLT would result in too much lag. A better bet might be to have the HLT set higher than the desired mash temp and use the PID to turn the water pump on and off.

Unless, of course, your idea is to submerge the plate chiller in the HLT, but I really don't think that would work - the heat exchange would be nowhere near as efficient as when used as intended.


----------



## searly333

Thanks for the posts guys.

WIth that in mind I might ditch the plate chiller as HX and pick up an immersion coil. The one on Gryphon looks pretty good. Has anyone come across any other good ones, either DIY or retail?

Cheers


----------



## hsb

Here's a US one. More of a HLT size though and much more exy than the hermit. 
www.stainlessbrewing.com/Coiled-to-customers-request-035-304304L-Coiled-Tubing_p_30.html


----------



## Camo6

Hi all,

I'm planning my herms build and would like some advice on plumbing schematics. Wanted to keep it simple with minimal hose swapping as I'd like to hard plumb some of it once I get used to the system. I currently biab so this is all new to me. I figure with this setup I only need to swap hoses at the HEX inlet.
Can anyone see any major flaws in this setup?
Can I underlet to the kettle via bottom tap or should I add an inlet higher?
Appreciate any advice.
Thanks,
Cam.


----------



## Camo1234

Camo6 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm planning my herms build and would like some advice on plumbing schematics. Wanted to keep it simple with minimal hose swapping as I'd like to hard plumb some of it once I get used to the system. I currently biab so this is all new to me. I figure with this setup I only need to swap hoses at the HEX inlet.
> Can anyone see any major flaws in this setup?
> Can I underlet to the kettle via bottom tap or should I add an inlet higher?
> Appreciate any advice.
> Thanks,
> Cam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HERMS REDUCED.JPG



Hi Camo, I am in the middle of building my own Hex system and am in the middle of sorting out the hosework this week.... I have two x pumps and also two x 3 way ball valves that will mean I won't have to swap any hoses during my brew session, rather I will just switch the ball valve when say I want pump two to switch between sending wort to the HX or sending it to the boiler.... the other ball valve will allow me to send my water from my HLT through my HX and into the MT and will also double as a fly sparge route when the other pump is diverted to the boiler.

Pretty shitty drawing below but I am putting it all together this week and will post pictures and any comments from my brew day on sunday.... Going to punch out 70 ltrs of LCPA!


----------



## Camo6

Thanks Camo, that setup looks pretty handy. How pricey were the 3 ways (ss?). Now you've given me more reason to spend cash! Good luck with the brew day.


----------



## Camo1234

$50 each from Gryphon Brewing... This whole setup just seems to be more cash each day I look at it but I am just about finished so should be close to the end of the spending!.... For now anyway!


----------



## hsb

It can be handy to recirc from HLT to pump back to HLT to get your strike temp and get the HEX in sync before you dough in. 
I just rest the HEX to MLT hose over the edge of the HLT but worth considering if you're hard plumbing that bit.

Looks good, two pumps is handy.


----------



## Fat Bastard

I'd like to carry this discussion on from Truman's "Brew day fail" thread in the All Grain forum.

I've just completed the 3rd brew on my 3V HERMS system, and noticed that there was a disturbance in the grain bed within seconds of switching the pump off to switch the hoses around for fly sparging, which is pump to kettle, gravity fed sparge. This seemed to allow a small amount of grain matter through to the kettle, which is probably not problematic, but I'd rather that it didn't go there. The disturbance seemed to be very fine air bubbles rising with some grains coming to the wort surface.

I've seen this before when I was Recirulating BIAB brewing, right on mash out, but didn't notice it in the last 2 brews I did with the HERMS. The last 2 were quite high gravity beers with L:G ratios below 3. This one was around 3.4:1, which is the best I could get given that my HLT will only hold 18 litres. The second change was that this was the first brew I have done using my mill, which was set to 1.6mm gap. I got incredibly good efficiency (discounting loss to trub etc) of 91%.

I can probably afford to increase the mill gap slightly, but do you think that this will alleviate the problem, or is it more of a function of the L:G ratio?


----------



## hsb

Bit of trapped wind? Maybe more related to your plumbing than crush? 
Just a thought, haven't experienced the same issue.


----------



## Fat Bastard

Was thinking that, it used to happen with the recirculating BIAB system right at mash out too. A stir halfway through used to help, but the L:G was less than ideal with BIAB. Maybe it's air trapped 'twixt grain and husk causing the issue?


----------



## mikec

What kind of efficiency are you guys getting with HERMS?
I was getting 80-ish% with BIAB but now more like 67% with HERMS.
Talking efficiency into the fermenter, after losing only 1-2L to kettle dead space.

I did a dunkelweissen on the weekend and had a good flow rate, didn't appear to be much in the way of channeling (although I did give it a stir at beginning of mash-out, let it settle, then switched the pump back on).
I was quite chuffed as i seemed to have sorted my flow issues, but efficiency was unchanged.


----------



## Yob

How are you running off? Batch or fly? My eff picked up when I got my flow rates better sorted with fly sparge..


----------



## mikec

Fly, pretty even flow.


----------



## Fat Bastard

I have had between 73% (9.5kg) and 93% (4.5kg) with my HERMS, which is slightly better than I got with BIAB. Mind you, I don't measure my losses to trub, which can vary because I just chuck my hops in. I even crush my grain at 1.6mm. Sorting out my water chemistry via the ez water spreadsheet gave me a measurable increase in efficiency, as did sorting my fly sparging technique.


----------



## mikec

Actually I just emptied the cube into the fermenter, I'd underestimated the amount of extra volume in the cube. My calculated eff was based on 20L, but I actually had 22L.
So eff into fermenter is actually 73% not 67%.
I've still got a ways to go though I think.

My grain was crushed at 1.2mm this time around. It was mostly wheat so not much in the way of husks, but I threw in some gulls.

I haven't as yet started to play with water profiles - perhaps that is the next thing to look at to improve things.

The other thing just occurring to me is that the wort return in the mash tun sits fixed about an inch above the grain bed, but as the grain bed compacts, this gap gets wider. So while I have an even flow with fly sparging, and the water level remains about the height of the wort return, the top of the liquid is probably at_ least_ 2 inches higher than the top of the grain bed.
I know general recommendation is for the liquid to be about an inch above the grain - so what effect will extra liquid have?


----------



## drifting79

Hey fellas I have been reading up on the herms system thread and have a build in progress, I have also spoken to Nev and will be getting a stainless herms coil in a few days one question i do have relating to my system is this ..

I have a rectangular coleman cooler 50ltr and i see that most people are using a round vessel i am a little concerned about channeling during mashing

at the moment I just a have a 12" bazooka (stainless mesh type sock) in the tun with a single 1" poly pipe length that slides over the top of the bazooka with slots cut into it that extends the length of the esky/tun.

I intend to make a more complex manifold in the future maybe out of copper but i am happy with the poly for now .

is anyone else using a rectangular tun for herms ?

Is there any issues with channeling?

and is the overall surface area of this size esky to demanding or inefficient for the herms system?

should i be looking for another keggle or one of those round style coolers that i can fit a round style mesh false bottom into?

great thread by the way it answers a lot of my Qs


----------



## Fat Bastard

mikec said:


> Actually I just emptied the cube into the fermenter, I'd underestimated the amount of extra volume in the cube. My calculated eff was based on 20L, but I actually had 22L.
> So eff into fermenter is actually 73% not 67%.
> I've still got a ways to go though I think.
> 
> My grain was crushed at 1.2mm this time around. It was mostly wheat so not much in the way of husks, but I threw in some gulls.
> 
> I haven't as yet started to play with water profiles - perhaps that is the next thing to look at to improve things.
> 
> The other thing just occurring to me is that the wort return in the mash tun sits fixed about an inch above the grain bed, but as the grain bed compacts, this gap gets wider. So while I have an even flow with fly sparging, and the water level remains about the height of the wort return, the top of the liquid is probably at_ least_ 2 inches higher than the top of the grain bed.
> I know general recommendation is for the liquid to be about an inch above the grain - so what effect will extra liquid have?


What's your wort return like? Can you adjust the height of it? When I was mucking about with recirculating BIAB, I used a shepards crook shaped thing made from1/2" copper pipe that plugged into some silicone tube attached to the brown pump so you could slide the wort return up and down in the silicone tube to adjust the height. Once it's set you just muck around with the flow rates to keep the level where you think it needs to be. I'm currently using a Beerbelly wort return dish and the principle is exactly the same. When I think about it, my wort is probably at least 2" over the grain bed, depending on the bill and the limited capacity of my HLT. Not sure it makes much difference to efficiency.


----------



## brettprevans

Had a thought, and a quick search but cant anything. Theres been talk of using frozen salt water to reCh colder temps for cooling well the same principle works for heating. Saturated salt water has a higher boiling temp than water so if we used that in our herms we could theoreticaly get higher ramp times. Thoughts?


----------



## MastersBrewery

citymorgue2 said:


> Had a thought, and a quick search but cant anything. Theres been talk of using frozen salt water to reCh colder temps for cooling well the same principle works for heating. Saturated salt water has a higher boiling temp than water so if we used that in our herms we could theoreticaly get higher ramp times. Thoughts?


your herms would want to be 316 ss, and corrosion on any element might be a little harsh too


----------



## treefiddy

You could also boil under pressure to increase the boiling point. Less corrosion issues, more safety issues.


----------



## mikec

You would have to have a ridiculous amount of salt, for very little gain.
I remember reading somewhere that salt water with a gravity of 1.020 (similar to sea water) increases the temp by half a degree, or something along those lines.


----------



## mikec

Fat Bastard said:


> What's your wort return like? Can you adjust the height of it? When I was mucking about with recirculating BIAB, I used a shepards crook shaped thing made from1/2" copper pipe that plugged into some silicone tube attached to the brown pump so you could slide the wort return up and down in the silicone tube to adjust the height. Once it's set you just muck around with the flow rates to keep the level where you think it needs to be. I'm currently using a Beerbelly wort return dish and the principle is exactly the same. When I think about it, my wort is probably at least 2" over the grain bed, depending on the bill and the limited capacity of my HLT. Not sure it makes much difference to efficiency.


Missed this earlier.
It's a ring of silicone hose that is essentially suspended above the wort. Suspended on one side by hose full of wort, the other side by string.
I can adjust the height to some degree by using different length "suspending" hose, but it's kind of a set at the start of the mash, and then leave, type deal.

I've considered the beerbelly return, just not #1 priority if I don't need it.


----------



## brettprevans

MastersBrewery said:


> your herms would want to be 316 ss, and corrosion on any element might be a little harsh too


ah yes corrosion. Completely slipped my mind. Found some basic science calculators and yeah it looks like 30g of salt per litre gives up to a degree before boiling. Too much effort to be useful.


----------



## Camo6

Hi all, still building my herms rig and am now working on my wort return. Have come up with an arrangement that I think will work but wondering if I have over engineered it.
I plan on using a loop of perforated silicone hose contained in part of an old steamer. The steamer section will have some stainless all thread connecting it to the wort return inlet allowing me to set the height depending on grain bed depth. The steamer covers a fair portion of the MT (keggle) diameter and will make stirring difficult once in place after mash in.





Can anyone see any problems with this arrangement or am I over complicating things? Will the enclosed sides still allow ample coverage of the grain bed or should I drill a few more holes? Appreciate any advice.

Cheers, Cam.

Edit: didn't mean to include brewstand pic but can't seem to delete it?


----------



## mikec

The hose part of your wort return is similar to mine, I just don't have the the strainer.
I cut some large holes around the inside of the hose/ring, and suspend the whole ring above the mash.
Then you still have access to the mash for stirring etc.


----------



## Camo6

Thanks mikec, how do you suspend the hose or do you allow it to sit on the mash. Have always BIABed so not used to the differences in grain/liquor ratios or sparging. Cheers


----------



## mikec

Will take a pic tomorrow, I just happen to be brewing.


----------



## Screwtop

All thats needed so long as you recirc slowly to avoid grainbed compaction. Silicone hose with fishing net float at the end.

Screwy

\


----------



## QldKev

Do you catch many fish in the mash tun?


----------



## razz

I concur with Screwy, the best so far has been a piece of silicone.


----------



## Camo6

But I see no stainless in either setups. Where's the bling?!


----------



## Screwtop

QldKev said:


> Do you catch many fish in the mash tun?


Tun's


----------



## Crusty

Screwtop said:


> Tun's


Gold............ :lol:


----------



## Fat Bastard

I have recently obtained a March pump that I have been using for whirlpooling, with some success. Last few brews I've been using the Little Brown to run the Heat Exchanger, but I'm not massively happy with the wort clarity into the kettle. I'm thinking of using the March in place of the Brownie on the HX. I suspect this will clear the wort much better due to the increased flow, but is there anything I need to be aware of running a much higher flow through the HX? I've got a valve on the outlet to throttle it back if needed. Can someone already running a March fill me in on a baseline setting to begin with?

Cheers,

FB


----------



## razz

It's one of those suck it and see things FB, I slowly open the valve until wort starts to flow, but only just. It's usually not much more than a trickle and as the wort clears it will flow a bit more.


----------



## Fat Bastard

Thanks Razz! With the March, do you notice the grain bed lifting at all when you change the flow from Recirculate to kettle? With the brown, I've noticed that I get some crud from the grist into the kettle. It's only a tiny amount, but it wasn't coming through when recirculating. I suspect the Brown pump doesn't have enough guts to compact the bed enough into something that will hold shape when suction is removed.

Cheers, 

FB.


----------



## Beerbuoy

^ I had some crazy floating grain bed going today

I've just finished upgrading my 3 tier on milk crates no chill rig to a 2 tier herms with whirlpool chiller. Did the first brew today and the grain bed started floating to the top as I raised the temp to 78 for mashout. By the time I started sparging I had to beat it back down with a stick. I was concerned about a lack of efficiency as most of the bed seemed to be floating rather then the sparge water rinsing down through it. In the end I hit the numbers bang on and everything turned out fine.
Any ideas on what caused my grain bed to float? Is this normal with herms? Hard to say but I'd estimate half the bed was floating during the sparge. Grain bill was 95% Bairds GP and 5% Simpsons dark crystal mashed at 65, mashout 78 and sparge water at 80.
I mucked around with the sparge water flow and the grain bed just moved up and down with the level.


----------



## razz

Fat Bastard said:


> Thanks Razz! With the March, do you notice the grain bed lifting at all when you change the flow from Recirculate to kettle? With the brown, I've noticed that I get some crud from the grist into the kettle. It's only a tiny amount, but it wasn't coming through when recirculating. I suspect the Brown pump doesn't have enough guts to compact the bed enough into something that will hold shape when suction is removed.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> FB.


I do get some lifting when I finish the mashout, I usually let the mash sit for 5-10 mins and that's when some lifting occurs. I also find that with the pump outlet set at the start of recirc, as I change temps (moving upwards) that the mash will soften and that's where the flow starts to increase. (pushing a paddle down through the grain bed can cause lifting at this stage also)
As far as changing from recirc to kettle the draf that you're experiencing will most likely come from opening the pump outlet more and allowing more flow through the false bottom.


----------



## Mzungu

G'day guys and gals, I am in the designing phase of building a herms setup and need opinions whether or not this design is feasible. Using one vessel as HEX, Sparge water and for chilling simply by filling with ice water. I have added a dodgy picture as reference:




Red is mash flow
Blue is sparge flow
Green is chill flow

Essentially this is how it will run with 2 pumps and 4 3 way ball valves:


===========
MASHING
===========
Pump 1: ON
Pump 2: OFF

3way Valve 1: A->C
3way Valave 3: B->A
3way Valave 4: c->A

----Transfer mash to boil-----
Pump 1: ON
Pump 2: OFF

3way Valve 1: A->B

==========
SPARGING
==========
Pump 1: OFF
Pump 2: ON

3way Valve 2: B->C
3way Valve 3: C->A

----Transfer sparge to boil-----
Pump 1: ON
Pump 2: OFF

3way Valve 1: A->B

==========
CHILLING
==========
Pump 1: OFF
Pump 2: ON

3way Valve 2: A->C
3way Valve 3: C->B
3way Valve 4: A->B

I have a few questions though:

With HEX coil,
can you have to much?
I think it would only be limited by the pumping power?
which is better transferring heat, copper or stainless?

Maybe I am going a bit to far the chiller feature?
would it be possible with the right amount of 'coiling' to cool down on one pass of say 45L of ice water?

If I am being silly with the chilling part, I can always no chill.


----------



## Yob

I asked the same thing about the ice, did a run through with water and it doesn't work, the ice will melt well before you have run it off.. Unless you have access to an ice machine it's a pretty expensive way to go.. I havnt, as yet, bought a plate chiller and still NC


----------



## Mzungu

Fair enough, will scrap the chilling idea and no chill


----------



## drifting79

after catching up with Nev for some of the best beer i have ever tried i left with a bag of goodies

i knocked this system up and have done a few runs on it so far

its an all electric system which i have incorporated my distilling boiler into

basically everything was purchased on fleabay except for the parts which Nev at Gryphon brewing supplied

I have managed to get good ramp times and since its inception i have been doing 4 temp rests with ease

I made a video on my first batch to share on you tube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8iJ3fDwe-M

I would like to thank QLD Kev and Nev for support during the build i will be using a pid in future

and all hoses will be upgraded among other fittings etc to get it a little more user friendly as i iron out the bumps.


----------



## Beerisyummy

cooperville said:


> after catching up with Nev for some of the best beer i have ever tried i left with a bag of goodies
> 
> i knocked this system up and have done a few runs on it so far


Thanks for the vid! Pictures speak a thousand words, but a video shows so much more.


----------



## V-Dawg

citymorgue2 said:


> ah yes corrosion. Completely slipped my mind. Found some basic science calculators and yeah it looks like 30g of salt per litre gives up to a degree before boiling. Too much effort to be useful.





citymorgue2 said:


> Had a thought, and a quick search but cant anything. Theres been talk of using frozen salt water to reCh colder temps for cooling well the same principle works for heating. Saturated salt water has a higher boiling temp than water so if we used that in our herms we could theoreticaly get higher ramp times. Thoughts?





MastersBrewery said:


> your herms would want to be 316 ss, and corrosion on any element might be a little harsh too


I have been wondering how much of a problem the actual heat exchange would be. I looked at some simple heat exchange models and they suggest you can easily reach surrounding temps in a few seconds which would be the time in the exchanger at pump rates at about 5 L per minute. So higher temps would only cause denaturing of enzymes unless my model is wrong?! 

Does anyone have empirical figures for heating rate depending on diameter, flow rate and spiral length? My intention of looking at models was minimizing the copper tube length/ diameter for my brown pump set up as much as possible.

Cheers
V


----------



## jeddog

I have searched the net for this answer and now cant be bothered to read the 45 pages for such a simple questions that may be answered in these pages.

The MLT is in a 55lt keggle and HEX is in a 55lt HLT. Ramping temps is not problem with 2x 2200 watt elements being used.
I have my temp control on the outlet to my HEX

When do I start timing my rest?
Should I have to have a temp monitor on the outlet from my MTL to know when the mash has reached required temp and once the MTL outlet has temp has been reached do I then start timing each rest?
or
Should I start rest time once my hex outlet reaches required temp? 
and
Can I get away from have a temp monitor on my MTL outlet?


Sorry if this have been brought up before. 

jeddog

Edit.. Spelling


.


----------



## dent

> When do I start timing my rest?


So long as your pump flow is sufficient, the temperature difference between your mash liquor and HX outlet will be within a degree or two. So it is perfectly fine to use the outlet temperature as the basis of your rest timing. 

My system starts the rest counter if the outlet is within 1.5 degrees of the setpoint.


----------



## jeddog

Thanks dent 

ill give that ago.


----------



## WarmBeer

First brew on the new HERMS-improved-WarmBeer-beer-making system.






My ghetto HERMS chamber, aka $12 kettle, ramped temperature at a little more than 1 degree per minute, controlled by the STC-1000.

In the photo above, you can see I'm re-using the HERMS loop inline to monitor the temperature of the wort going back to the whirlpool return of my immersion chiller. Took about 25 minutes to get the wort from boil down to 16 degrees, ready for pitching.

Will add a bleed valve off the output of the March pump before next brew, as priming the pump was probably the most painful part of the day. Once primed, the March pump is great.

Need to work out a nice, adjustable, wort return that can sit inside my Techni-Ice mash tun, as my "improv" manifold constructed of PVC conduit gets a little wobbly above 55 degrees C.


----------



## nathan_madness

I am currently planning a 3v HERMS. The system is based on a single pump and gravity feeding the MLT from the HLT.

I have 1x70L CB pot and 2x100L CB pots. I will use one of the 100L pots for the BK, but which one should I use for the MLT?


----------



## mxd

nathan_madness said:


> I am currently planning a 3v HERMS. The system is based on a single pump and gravity feeding the MLT from the HLT.
> 
> I have 1x70L CB pot and 2x100L CB pots. I will use one of the 100L pots for the BK, but which one should I use for the MLT?


I'll go 70 for the HLT, if need be (you can heat the sparge water in time) you can heat your strike water in the MLT


----------



## mxd

WarmBeer said:


> First brew on the new HERMS-improved-WarmBeer-beer-making system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My ghetto HERMS chamber, aka $12 kettle, ramped temperature at a little more than 1 degree per minute, controlled by the STC-1000.
> 
> In the photo above, you can see I'm re-using the HERMS loop inline to monitor the temperature of the wort going back to the whirlpool return of my immersion chiller. Took about 25 minutes to get the wort from boil down to 16 degrees, ready for pitching.
> 
> Will add a bleed valve off the output of the March pump before next brew, as priming the pump was probably the most painful part of the day. Once primed, the March pump is great.
> 
> Need to work out a nice, adjustable, wort return that can sit inside my Techni-Ice mash tun, as my "improv" manifold constructed of PVC conduit gets a little wobbly above 55 degrees C.



looks good, a couple of issues I notice.

What's with the girly gloves ?

you appear to be brewing but not a pint to be seen ?


----------



## WarmBeer

mxd said:


> looks good, a couple of issues I notice.
> 
> What's with the girly gloves ?
> > They're my daughter's gloves. Yes, she has big hands, just like her old man.
> 
> you appear to be brewing but not a pint to be seen ?
> > I had to put down the stein to be able to use the camera phone. D'uh!


----------



## Nodrog

Got my Herms hx made, a coil within a coil. Made the inner one first, around a saucepan from upstairs, then a larger saucepan for the next. It was a bit of a rats nest, so 3x 200mm M8 threaded rod and some copper wire, and is strapped n place so there's a 12 mm cap between each coil, and the inner coils line up with a space on the outer coil. 
Got 9m of tube into it, 200mm high, outside diameter 240mm, my hx pot is 260mm id so should be in business.

Before coiling I filled the 10m of tube with salt, which was a nightmare, had the coil unwound into a spiral with me out of an upstairs window with a funnel and jug of salt. If anyone tries the salt filling to prevent collapsingof the tube i'd recommend youmdo it on a dry day! Hopefully the salt will wash out ok!


----------



## Blackened

Quick question for HERMS and also RIMS users.

With my setup, the mash temperature rises pretty quickly until it's close to the target, then the rise slows down as the HX reduces power in order to avoid overshoot on it's hot side. 

On my first and only batch so far, I decided 2 degrees under target was close enough to set the mash timer going. So the final 2 degree rise was within the total sacc rest. How does everyone else determine the start point of each step in their rest schedule? I'm just wondering as I need to set a figure for my brew computer.

Cheers!


----------



## Truman42

When I was using an STC1000 I wouldnt start the timer until the temp was reached and the stc cut the power off for the first time. Now that I use a pid its fully automatic. But I really dont think its going to matter if you start your timer a couple of degrees below set temp especially if you reach your step temp quickly.


----------



## Blackened

Truman said:


> When I was using an STC1000 I wouldnt start the timer until the temp was reached and the stc cut the power off for the first time. Now that I use a pid its fully automatic. But I really dont think its going to matter if you start your timer a couple of degrees below set temp especially if you reach your step temp quickly.


Thanks Truman,

Does your PID read the temperature at the HX output? Or in the mash? If it's reading the temperature from the HX output then I guess that means it's ignoring the mash temp entirely?

edit: I should mention that the final 2 degree rise in temperature that I refer to is actually the mash temp rather than the HX output temperature.


----------



## Truman42

My pid sensor is located at my herms coil outlet just above the HX.


----------



## Blackened

That would mean that I'm actually delaying the start of my timer compared to you, as the mash takes a while (not sure how long) before it equalises with the HX output. Maybe I should ignore the mash temp in regards to timing the steps and just work off the HX output temperature.

Thanks


----------



## QldKev

You want to control the HX temperature so the wort existing it does not get too hot. Otherwise your wort exiting the HX will be above the desired mash temp, and since enzyme conversion of the starches happen in the wort and not in the grain itself you won't get the desired result. You do however want a decent enough flow to ensure you obtain a minimal temperature lag in the grain bed, otherwise any wort there will be lagging in temps. Flow is king!

edit: To clarify, if you are achieving incredibly huge ramp rates far above what is realistically achievable with the heating potential of you elements and your volume of wort, then you don't have enough flow.


----------



## Blackened

QldKev said:


> You want to control the HX temperature so the wort existing it does not get too hot. Otherwise your wort exiting the HX will be above the desired mash temp, and since enzyme conversion of the starches happen in the wort and not in the grain itself you won't get the desired result. You do however want a decent enough flow to ensure you obtain a minimal temperature lag in the grain bed, otherwise any wort there will be lagging in temps. Flow is king!
> 
> edit: To clarify, if you are achieving incredibly huge ramp rates far above what is realistically achievable with the heating potential of you elements and your volume of wort, then you don't have enough flow.


Sorry, I didn't make my method very clear did I? Yeah, as you say, I'm controlling the HX out, but monitoring the mash temp too. My flow is adequate as the power doesn't taper off until the mash is also close to target temp. 

I'm considering a 3 step control method. 
Step 1. Max power and reduced flow to hit the target immediately 
Step 2. Ramp up flow to control output temp. Then Once at max flow....
Step 3 reduce power to avoid overshoot

I don't have electric valves yet so can't try it even if I wanted to. Not to mention developing the control software to make it work.


----------



## Yob

Bah! Just add the ramp time to the step time.. Bugger off and have a beer.. lol.. Ghetto style kung fu


----------



## QldKev

Blackened said:


> Sorry, I didn't make my method very clear did I? Yeah, as you say, I'm controlling the HX out, but monitoring the mash temp too. My flow is adequate as the power doesn't taper off until the mash is also close to target temp.
> 
> I'm considering a 3 step control method.
> Step 1. Max power and reduced flow to hit the target immediately
> Step 2. Ramp up flow to control output temp. Then Once at max flow....
> Step 3 reduce power to avoid overshoot
> 
> I don't have electric valves yet so can't try it even if I wanted to. Not to mention developing the control software to make it work.



In theory it sounds great. But I still think flow is king. Otherwise during your initial phase you are ramping fast, but you have minimal flow so your mash bed will lag even further. But I guess the wort existing the HX wil be warmer so overall it should balance out. Overall you won't save time as the most energy you can put into the heating is the output of the element, which in both designs should hold the element on until you are almost finished the ramp. I still like the idea of maximum flow at all times to keep the temperature in the mash bed more uniform, and theoretically making the brews more consistent. To me a system that can have good flow and achieve 1c per minute ramp times, it is perfect. But I guess that's more the way I've been taught, and your design may be better.


----------



## Blackened

QldKev said:


> In theory it sounds great. But I still think flow is king. Otherwise during your initial phase you are ramping fast, but you have minimal flow so your mash bed will lag even further. But I guess the wort existing the HX wil be warmer so overall it should balance out. Overall you won't save time as the most energy you can put into the heating is the output of the element, which in both designs should hold the element on until you are almost finished the ramp. I still like the idea of maximum flow at all times to keep the temperature in the mash bed more uniform, and theoretically making the brews more consistent. To me a system that can have good flow and achieve 1c per minute ramp times, it is perfect. But I guess that's more the way I've been taught, and your design may be better.


Yeah, I was aiming for a way to increase the HX output temperature, whilst not reducing power until absolutely necessary. So there *should* be the same ramp time for the mash temperature as I'm keeping the energy input the same. As you say, this is not to save time. I'm not even sure what I expect to achieve, just trying to think outside the box. With a slower flowId expect reduced mixing in the mash until step 2 is reached and the flow is increased. I'm imagining that with a slow flow, there would be some sort of stratification of temps. ie: hot inflow sitting on top of cooler mash and slowly making it's way down through the mash. 

A problem with this could also be a fairly sudden spike in my HX input temperatures when that hot liquor finally makes it all the way through the grain bed and back out again.

All theory of course. I have no way of trying it out just yet. I'll definitely report back if/when I get my setup to that point. No time soon though.


----------



## GrumpyPaul

When making aghetto hex ie coil in a kettle. What's the cheapest option for the coil. And where would you get it from?


----------



## cat007

Hi all

I've finished most of my brew rig and I've done a couple of wet runs with just water only.
It's a 3V HERMS system with the HERMS coil in the HLT and using a BrewTroller to control the elements via PID.

Below is a pic of the HERMS coil - but I have a problem where I've had to lift it up about 10cm from the bottom of the HLT so it clears the elements. But this means there's a good 15 Litres of water needed to be in the HLT before it touches the HERMS coil. The HLT is a 70L pot that measures around 45cm in diameter. 

How close is too close for an element to the HERMS coil? Is touching it bad? I was thinking of lowering the herms coil down and poking the elements through it but this would mean the elements would be either touching or very close to touching the copper coil as they poke through it....


----------



## sponge

As long as there is decent flow, it shouldn't be a problem.

Think of a RIMS system - that's wort going directly over an element - so having the coil touching the element is not really a big issue (IMO, but happy to be proven otherwise), especially with the thermal mass of the water around the coil helping reduce the chances of scorching the wort etc.


----------



## sponge

PS. I still have not got around to upgrading my ghetto HERMS system (HX submerged in a woolies kettle) to a pot with an element (even though I have all the hardware needed to build it), and the coil would be very close to, if not touching, the element, and haven't noticed any issues with regards to the finished beer.

As for your herms coil, I can not see the picture you are referencing? Maybe others can, but I can't on FF21.0..


----------



## cat007

Sorry - I forgot to paste the link lol

You can't really see inside. I thought I had one looking inside - I'll get one tonight.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Hunt said:


> Hi all
> 
> I've finished most of my brew rig and I've done a couple of wet runs with just water only.
> It's a 3V HERMS system with the HERMS coil in the HLT and using a BrewTroller to control the elements via PID.
> 
> Below is a pic of the HERMS coil - but I have a problem where I've had to lift it up about 10cm from the bottom of the HLT so it clears the elements. But this means there's a good 15 Litres of water needed to be in the HLT before it touches the HERMS coil. The HLT is a 70L pot that measures around 45cm in diameter.
> 
> How close is too close for an element to the HERMS coil? Is touching it bad? I was thinking of lowering the herms coil down and poking the elements through it but this would mean the elements would be either touching or very close to touching the copper coil as they poke through it....


First, 15L is way to big a volume to be heating, 2L is about all you would want ...
Having said that, I wouldnt have the coil touching the element but if it real close I dont see any problems


----------



## sponge

Ahh yes, I managed to read over the bit about using the coil in the HLT.

As Nev said, that's definitely far too big of a volume of water (especially if it's more like 70L, and not just the 15L minimum you need for the water to even touch the coil) to be heating for the HERMS. Get yourself another little vessel for it.

Use that setup as an immersion chiller


----------



## cat007

Yeah - it's a little large. I have 2x3500watt elements in there and ramp time's aren't all that great at the moment.

I don't really want to get another vessel for the herms coil - as that'll mean another element, plugging up the holes in the HLT and sourcing some more copper.

I don't need an immersion chiller as I have a counterflow chiller.

I'll try and lower the herms coil so it's not so high off the bottom and see how that goes. Might do some timed experiments tonight before and after.


----------



## cat007

I guess I assumed it would be ok because they did it on The Electric Brewery here

I'll see if I can lower the HERMS coil so it's on the bottom of the HLT and the elements poke through.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Hunt said:


> I guess I assumed it would be ok because they did it on The Electric Brewery here
> 
> I'll see if I can lower the HERMS coil so it's on the bottom of the HLT and the elements poke through.


You could do away with about half the coil length as I cant see you needing that much, this would lower the coil by half height ?
Nev


----------



## cat007

That wouldn't really lower the coil. The coil is as high as it is because the elements are in the way and I assumed the best way to do it was to put the HERMS coil just above the elements. But perhaps I should put a couple of coils under the elements and poke the elements through one of the coils. That'd be the easiest way to utilise the lowest parts of the HLT?


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Hunt said:


> That wouldn't really lower the coil. The coil is as high as it is because the elements are in the way and I assumed the best way to do it was to put the HERMS coil just above the elements. But perhaps I should put a couple of coils under the elements and poke the elements through one of the coils. That'd be the easiest way to utilise the lowest parts of the HLT?


Yes do what ever it takes to get the best water contact with the least volume.
Nev


----------



## cat007

Well I was able to lower the herms coil about 2.5cm and it's sitting just above the elements. There's about 7-8 coils covered over with water in the HLT.

The problem now is, and I can't figure out why, the HLT is up to temp, 65C, but the MLT and the water coming out of the herms coil is hovering around the 62-63C and has been for the best part of 30 minutes. I would've thought 2-3C in lost temp between the herms coil, pump and mash tun is a bit much?
The MLT isn't insulated - so that's probably not helping - but I would've thought I'd be a degree off at most....

Should I be pushing the water through the HERMS coil, or pulling from it? At the moment out of the MLT it goes into the pump, then out of the pump and into the top of the HERMS coil, then out at the bottom of the HERMS coil and into the top of the MLT.


----------



## hsb

Pump up so you know it's full of liquid.


----------



## cat007

Yep just tried that. 20 mins later and it's still hovering around 62-63C with the hlt at 65.

Maybe I need to cover more coils. I would've thought 8 would be enough.... They're about 28cm in diameter.


----------



## dent

Why bother trying? There will always be a temperature offset. The control should be attached to the outlet temperature, and your HLT should run at whatever duty cycle is required to reach the setpoint at the outlet point.


----------



## hsb

More coils out of water is further for the liquid to travel and cool so makes sense.
I only measure my Mash Tun and (small, fully submerged) HEX out temperatures and there's still always a lag between them.
I don't care what temperature the HEX water is, you could just add a splash of cold before sparging if the HLT ends up too far over to use for your sparge, no big deal.


----------



## V-Dawg

Polar Beer said:


> Good thread. I've procrastinated for a while on my HERMS build and this should be the motivation I need to get it done. I have most of the components now. PIDs, pump, bench, false bottom etc.
> Just need to:
> 
> 1: build the HE. Have one of those 8L wine esky cylinder things.
> 2: build electronics box and install PIDS and elements.
> 3: upgrade my wiring back to the fuse box. I have a 3.5k element for the HLT. Have been told my 10amp line wont be able to handle it plus fermenting fridges, garage TV etc.
> 4: Assemble it all
> 
> Getting some help with the electrical stuff as I've got no idea.
> 
> Can you wise HERMSmen have a look at my diagram and critique? Looks sound enough to me.
> 
> BTW - I do remember reading somewhere that people had issues using a SS braid as a manifold with a HERMS or RIMS. They ended up crushing apparently.
> 
> Cheers
> Polar


Hi Polar 

I have not read through the whole thread but I saw your design here which matches mine. Did you end up building it this way, whats your experience with the setup?
Also I am not sure re switching between the 2 2kw element or enabling 2 top run simultaneously - would like to avoid 10amp vs 20amp issue... How did you end up building that aspect?

Cheers


----------



## Grainer

Ok im up for building mark 1 Herm-it vessel... 1st agenda is an element should I go 2200 watt or would a 2400 watt element get better ramping times etc...???


----------



## Grainer

Ohh and run the element in the middle of the coil rather than at the base of the coil??


----------



## Yob

Grainer said:


> Ok im up for building mark 1 Herm-it vessel... 1st agenda is an element should I go 2200 watt or would a 2400 watt element get better ramping times etc...???


It goes up to 11


----------



## QldKev

Grainer said:


> Ok im up for building mark 1 Herm-it vessel... 1st agenda is an element should I go 2200 watt or would a 2400 watt element get better ramping times etc...???


Have a look on my web site, qldkev.net. There is a water heating calculator. You punch in how many litres of water, the watts, and then the amount of tempeture change, ie 78c to 100c = 22c change. It will give you a time to get there. Then you can compare the 2 element sizes.

As an example
32L of water
From 78 to 100c boil = 22 diff

2200w = 22 mins
2400w = 20 mins





Grainer said:


> Ohh and run the element in the middle of the coil rather than at the base of the coil??


Heat rises, so the bottom I would think is best.


----------



## nala

Chappo said:


> Just wanted to ask and guage whether there would be much interest from the HERMies AHBers out there in having a dedicated HERMS thread where we can discuss our systems, procedures, set ups, theories, problems and solutions without the clouding banter that seems to creep into nearly every thread. I'm probably more guilty than some for that. Anyway before starting the thread I thought it wise to maybe open the floor to maybe set down some rules of the thread as well so we can get what we want out of it.
> 
> I suggest:
> 
> 
> To stay on topic where reasonable (a little friendly banter is ok)
> Purely on procedures, techniques, brewing techniques, equipment, technology and set ups.
> Talk on recipes and results from HERMS systems
> Photo's, drawings, scribbles of gear and set up is a must.
> No trolling lets keep it straight, debate well, deal with facts and remain focused. Difference of opinion is more than acceptable. Calling someone out for a shooting and pissing contest isn't.
> Advanced brewing techniques using HERMS.
> Beginner advice on setting HERMS systems up.
> The thread will be actively Moderated to keep it on topic.
> Now this isn't an elitist thread ok. So please don't start banging that one out guys. It is however for those in the HERMS world of brewing. We don't bash on much about our systems etc as mentioned above. But it will be a place where those doing HERMS can advance and share their knowledge.
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Chappo


I have read chapter and verse on this topic and was so encouraged that I have hopefully invested in a good brewing system,
however my early attempts are not encouraging.
In order to get a feel as to how the system works I decided to do a 'dry run' so to speak, that is running the system without grain.
My strike water for the trial was 20 litres, I switched on and was quite impressed with the temperature rise and the controller going through it,s various steps.....initially I was using a brown pump and recirculating at a measured 4 litres per minute, did the job nicely.
Now...with confidence, I decided to do a brew using a 5 stage mash.
Doughed in, pumping very slowly, discovered not enough wort going through the mash to pump at 4 litres per minute so partly closed the ball valve, the HEX was supplying wort at the set temperature, however when I checked the grain bed temperature I found that this was 6 degrees lower than the set mash temperature.
I was disappointed at this but never say die I carried on, took what seemed to be ages to get to mashout I have fermented the wort that I produced but am not really happy with the system and am looking for solutions to these and hopefully some HERMS expert can put me right.
To give an indication of what equipment I employ for my general brewing this is it :
a. 2 roller grain mill
b. Mill gap 1.3 mm
c. 12" diameter false bottom
d. 20 litres per minute pump...upgraded from brown pump.
e. HERMIT controller
f. Various s/s disconnects.
g. 1/2 inside diameter tubing

The answers that I am hoping that someone can provide are :
a. How to get the flow rate through the mash....have tried various mill gaps, makes no difference.
b. Has anyone measured the variation in mash temperatures, I get a 6 degree variation
c. Does anyone agitate the mash or stir the mash in order to get the flow.
I invested in the HERMS system because having read this topic I felt that nobody had any problems, I am just wondering how many brewers have the same problems as me and either are not aware of them or totally disregard them,after all I can brew good beer with a single infusion mash and have now completed my 73rd all grain brew with single infusion, I was hoping to make some progression with the HERMS and further enhance my skills.






Just a couple of pictures to show where I am at....sorry no bling !


----------



## Khellendros13

I had issues getting the flow through to my brown pump as well - however every brew before the HERM-IT I have had to suck on the mash tun hose outlet to get a flow. I know my current mash tun is flawed (even with a false bottom) but will be changing it completely soon.

Once I did get flow...the brown pump was clogged with a few bits of grain, stopping it from pumping. Cleaned it out, and manually recirculated until mostly clear, then hooked the pump back up. Perfect after that, and dumped to the kettle via the HEX output.

What pump do you have now? Have you checked to see if it has clogged with any grain?

I eyeballed my mill settings until I got a crush I was happy with. Similar thickness to a credit card. Grain sets very softly and once the first bits of grain are through, recirculates without issue.

I didn't bother with measuring grain bed temp, maybe I should have, but from what I have read it doesn't really matter with HERMS. It will always lag behind the HEX output, just a matter of howmuch/how long for. Maybe you have a longer lag/temp difference because of metal vs cooler? Step mashing would mean the grain bed will most likely not catch the HEX output, as it is ramping every 5-10 mins?

I wouldn't stir during the mash, that is what a recirculating HERMS is for. You will just end up with more grain through the pump. 

Were you gravity feeding the pump?


----------



## dent

> The answers that I am hoping that someone can provide are :
> a. How to get the flow rate through the mash....have tried various mill gaps, makes no difference.
> b. Has anyone measured the variation in mash temperatures, I get a 6 degree variation
> c. Does anyone agitate the mash or stir the mash in order to get the flow.


Yeah that sounds pretty crappy. Last time I checked (long ago) I get about 1.5 degree difference between the mash temperature and the outgoing HX temp. This will vary depending whether you are trying to ramp up the temperature at the time or whatever.

I find that the weight of the grain on the screen/whatever seems to be a critical thing as to whether the grain will jam up the flow or not. I've seen a full slotted false bottom jam up, while a crappy little ring of braid will flow nicely even with crap like oats and rice in the grist. Once difference seems to be the ratio of open/closed area that the weight of the grain rests upon. Given the example of a dome shaped false bottom, I'm coming to the conclusion lately that a dome smaller than the base of your mash tun is much better than one that covers the entire base - the smaller one has closed area on the sides. I'm still working on the physics of this situation to determine why it is so.

I would avoid stirring when the pump is running if possible. In delicately balanced (on the edge of jamming up) systems like yours it will often make the blockage worse.

Basically your root problem is insufficient flow, we need to look at ways to improve it.


----------



## Crusty

nala said:


> I have read chapter and verse on this topic and was so encouraged that I have hopefully invested in a good brewing system,
> however my early attempts are not encouraging.
> In order to get a feel as to how the system works I decided to do a 'dry run' so to speak, that is running the system without grain.
> My strike water for the trial was 20 litres, I switched on and was quite impressed with the temperature rise and the controller going through it,s various steps.....initially I was using a brown pump and recirculating at a measured 4 litres per minute, did the job nicely.
> Now...with confidence, I decided to do a brew using a 5 stage mash.
> Doughed in, pumping very slowly, discovered not enough wort going through the mash to pump at 4 litres per minute so partly closed the ball valve, the HEX was supplying wort at the set temperature, however when I checked the grain bed temperature I found that this was 6 degrees lower than the set mash temperature.
> I was disappointed at this but never say die I carried on, took what seemed to be ages to get to mashout I have fermented the wort that I produced but am not really happy with the system and am looking for solutions to these and hopefully some HERMS expert can put me right.
> To give an indication of what equipment I employ for my general brewing this is it :
> a. 2 roller grain mill
> b. Mill gap 1.3 mm
> c. 12" diameter false bottom
> d. 20 litres per minute pump...upgraded from brown pump.
> e. HERMIT controller
> f. Various s/s disconnects.
> g. 1/2 inside diameter tubing
> 
> The answers that I am hoping that someone can provide are :
> a. How to get the flow rate through the mash....have tried various mill gaps, makes no difference.
> b. Has anyone measured the variation in mash temperatures, I get a 6 degree variation
> c. Does anyone agitate the mash or stir the mash in order to get the flow.
> I invested in the HERMS system because having read this topic I felt that nobody had any problems, I am just wondering how many brewers have the same problems as me and either are not aware of them or totally disregard them,after all I can brew good beer with a single infusion mash and have now completed my 73rd all grain brew with single infusion, I was hoping to make some progression with the HERMS and further enhance my skills.
> 
> 
> 
> 2013-08-21 09.55.22.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 2013-09-24 12.02.09.jpg
> 
> Just a couple of pictures to show where I am at....sorry no bling !


I was in exactly this position a year or two ago & was making great beer & decided to go for a Rims set up. My mash temp was controlled via a PID & a 2400 watt heat stick. I had quite a few problems with that particular set up, a lot to do with the design of the rig & not so much the equipment I was using.
I never stirred the mash whilst re-circulating. You are trying to create a filter bed of sorts & stirring it will just cloud things up & you won't achieve the filtering through the grain bed.
Forget about the lag in the grain bed against the hex outlet. The outlet temp is what you are aiming for.
I used as high as a 1.5mm gap on my mill & used 3.5lt / kg grain. I still encountered compacted grain beds & stuck sparges which pissed me off to no end. I ended up ditching the re-circulation idea in the end & went back to simplicity. I decided on BIAB in the urn. It's a great way to brew but it too has it's challenges with trying to accurately control your mash temp & with an exposed element on my urn, step mashes are almost out of the question so it leaves me little choice but to stick with single infusions.
I still have an Auber PID, ramp, soak, kiln model with SSR output & some switches & illuminated lights & may look at Herms down the track.......... h34r:
If there's one thing I hate about my process, it's the mash out. Constantly rousing the mash from rest to mash out temp is tedious & is a work out & a half. 
I would also like to get a better hold on the 90min rest temp as well. I lose around 2-3deg in that 90mins but the majority of conversion takes place in that first 20-30 mins so not much would be lost there. It's kinda nice to set the temp you want & let the PID take control of it all & awesome watching it run through a 5 step mash but devastating noticing the re-circulation almost stop & realize your mash temp is punching above the 80deg mark.
Hang in there mate, you'll get it sorted & IMO, the herms is the way to go.


----------



## dent

Something that will often jam up your mash is running the pump at high speed when mashing in. My recommendation is to close the outlet of the pump off altogether when mashing in, give it your stir against dough balls, then slowly open the pump up to the minimum required flow. The time when you are most likely to get a stuck mash is at the start when it is relatively cold and you have a full load of undissolved starch and flour. And once it jams, you are screwed, because you don't have the flow to get the heat from the HX into the mash.

If you have a good fast pump like a gryphon ultimiser the most _courageous _thing to do would be to have that thing running full bore when mashing in.


----------



## dago001

dent said:


> Something that will often jam up your mash is running the pump at high speed when mashing in. My recommendation is to close the outlet of the pump off altogether when mashing in, give it your stir against dough balls, then slowly open the pump up to the minimum required flow. The time when you are most likely to get a stuck mash is at the start when it is relatively cold and you have a full load of undissolved starch and flour. And once it jams, you are screwed, because you don't have the flow to get the heat from the HX into the mash.
> 
> If you have a good fast pump like a gryphon ultimiser the most _courageous _thing to do would be to have that thing running full bore when mashing in.


An excellent piece of advice this. It is how I now run my herms after a series of stuck mashes.
Cheers
LB


----------



## Fat Bastard

I don't run my pump at all during mash in, which is normally at a 52c rest. Normally give it a good stir during this time and open it up for the sacc. rest ramp up. Never had a stuck mash yet.

Quick question, I'm building a brew stand at the moment, and have the option to either have the HLT at the same level as the MLT and kettle but not the HX, or have the HX next to the MLT and the HLT below. I've got enough pumps to do either, but I'm leaning towards having the HX as close as possible to the MLT to reduce heat losses.

anyonw have any thoughts on this?

cheers,

FB.


----------



## dent

Fat Bastard said:


> having the HX as close as possible to the MLT to reduce heat losses.


My opinion is the difference with the communal radiated heat will be stuff all.


----------



## Fat Bastard

I guess it's swings and roundabouts, Lose heat pumping up to the MLT from the HX, or lose heat pumping the sparge up.
Just thoughts at this stage, I'm still welding the frame, or at least the apprentice is!


----------



## Camo6

I'd keep the hlt level with the rest and the hx below so your pumps are easier to prime. My hlt pump is pretty much self priming via gravity. I use pipe insulation from bunnings to reduce heat loss in my herms circuit but its probably overkill. Just a thought anyway.


----------



## O-beer-wan-kenobi

I have been thinking about my system and the possibility of hot side aeration. If the wort return manifold is above the mash water level and you are splashing or sprinkling the hot wort from the HEX, is there the possibility of hot side aeration? Or does the boil eradicate this?

I haven't detected any oxidization in my beers or staling but wondered if this is a problem?

Apologies if this has been covered but I couldn't find anything


----------



## Camo6

There's still a fair bit of conjecture over the whole HSA theory. If only for your own piece of mind, could you lower your wort return closer to the mash? This would also reduce grain bed disturbance if fly sparging.

While I'm at it here's a pic of my semi-ghetto wort return I made recently:










No frills, fully adjustable and easily removable. I've since relocated the manifold holes to the sides only to reduce disturbing the grain bed. So far, so good. I'm consistently hitting over 80% efficiency in regular strength brews.


----------



## drifting79

G'day fellas so I have been busy and wanted to show you my dedicated herms brewing system 
Version 2
If it's not ok to post here please remove 


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7dAjFFeMidY

It's taken me a while to get it going 
It's a long video so if you only want to watch a snapshot I'm sorry 
The last 30 seconds will give you an idea of my heartache with running 100v
To a system which I have designed to be 240v 

If your interested in the short out I had a rust earth bolt on my hot tank as I had been doing a few water runs to see how things run 
Since then I have also had two of my $5 110-240v -11volt lbp transformers 
Crap out due to over heating 
Since then I have upgraded to laptop style transformers and will be able to report back on these 
Let me know what you think but the stAinless herms vessel holds temp very well I'm not to sure if it needs insulation but In future I'm sure I will 

With time


----------



## Grainer

Its beautiful.. I want your HERM-IT.... but probably cost the earth can you list the parts? .. by my guess $300 without the element or the Gryphon fittings and tube.. guess I may have to wait longer.. but a sweeeeeet HERM-IT..I may even be tempted by your design.


----------



## drifting79

Grainer you will be very suprised at the cost I tried to keep everything very cheap hence the brass ball valves I think below 250$ except for the hose which I found rather expensive I got the quick disconnects from nev which I think are very well priced
Met Nev in person .... Now he is one dry mofo love im 
And actually the best beer I've ever had I put him in ledgend status
Jp is not the ducks nuts but there an excellent craft beer scene home brewing is ilegL 

Currently drinking a iipa 11 % very good coedo


----------



## Grainer

cooperville said:


> Grainer you will be very suprised at the cost I tried to keep everything very cheap hence the brass ball valves I think below 250$ except for the hose which I found rather expensive I got the quick disconnects from nev which I think are very well priced
> Met Nev in person .... Now he is one dry mofo love im
> And actually the best beer I've ever had I put him in ledgend status
> Jp is not the ducks nuts but there an excellent craft beer scene home brewing is ilegL
> 
> Currently drinking a iipa 11 % very good coedo


HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE? The still dragon components alone are $275??? without the coil fittings and element... How did you get them down on price.. Id be interested in that !! 

View attachment HERM-IT.tiff


----------



## drifting79

Now I've been drinking for bout an hour 

No excuse I will work out a final cost soon ...ASAP but remember what I have built is all stainless and very versatile 

I had issues with the pumps which cost $20 each so for me price is low compared to kaixin which I have inquired about and would like to upgrade to 
If there is an option for but 

All the same his system is awesome and should be celebrated 

No pid to technical .. and it does what a lt of fellas want 
I will break down cost tonight and share but believe me 
Brewing in jp will cost an arm and a ball 
I hope this helps the Aussies


----------



## Grainer

cooperville said:


> Now I've been drinking for bout an hour
> 
> No excuse I will work out a final cost soon ...ASAP but remember what I have built is all stainless and very versatile
> 
> I had issues with the pumps which cost $20 each so for me price is low compared to kaixin which I have inquired about and would like to upgrade to
> If there is an option for but
> 
> All the same his system is awesome and should be celebrated
> 
> No pid to technical .. and it does what a lt of fellas want
> I will break down cost tonight and share but believe me
> Brewing in jp will cost an arm and a ball
> I hope this helps the Aussies


LOL may be selfish but was only interested in the HERM-IT vessel


----------



## drifting79

As far as hermit goes this is Jedi nutts 

If you look at the video is shows clearly the temp raise and what's happening 
If the videos to long well fu I wanted to show a system on simple electronics and made sure if was informative to the public ...
Public ....
Men with needs in brewing 
Note 
The flow of return from. A brown pump brendon my main man while brewing was well impressed this is my system let a guy judge his own
Cost to follow


----------



## Grainer

cooperville said:


> As far as hermit goes this is Jedi nutts
> 
> If you look at the video is shows clearly the temp raise and what's happening
> If the videos to long well fu I wanted to show a system on simple electronics and made sure if was informative to the public ...
> Public ....
> Men with needs in brewing
> Note
> The flow of return from. A brown pump brendon my main man while brewing was well impressed this is my system let a guy judge his own
> Cost to follow


Found the cost $223 US for still dragon components.. Thank you


----------



## WarmBeer

Grainer said:


> Found the cost $223 US for still dragon components.. Thank you


$11 at your local Woolworths


----------



## drifting79

I don't deny the cost but please


----------



## drifting79

Note the drainalble system


----------



## WarmBeer

cooperville said:


> Note the drainalble system


Mine's drainable, too. Plus the misses can make herself a nice cuppa tea while she cleans the brewery for me.

Let's face it, who's done all the _real_ work around here?


----------



## Grainer

WarmBeer said:


> Mine's drainable, too. Plus the misses can make herself a nice cuppa tea while she cleans the brewery for me.
> 
> Let's face it, who's done all the _real_ work around here?


Lol ur onto something..maybe if he put a tap on it for the tea and connected a geothermal generator to run his system he'd be on a winner !! LOL...


----------



## drifting79

Just priced it up quickly it comes in around $150+/- this is just for the Stilldragon parts not including the element or Hermit coil

So yes it is a bit exxy but it certainly has bling factor :lol:

If you have one of the SD stills you will already have a lot of the parts B)


----------



## Yob

WarmBeer said:


> $11 at your local Woolworths


I also presume those are SWMBO's girly gloves? I approve of her pick of colour


----------



## rosshorne

Hi all,

I am thinking about going HERMS. Is there any reason this diagram wouldn't work? I would only control the temperature of the HLT and I think I would probably insulate the tubing as well.


----------



## Yob

Have the probe on the outlet of the urn


----------



## rosshorne

Was thinking about that. Thanks Yob. Also, I think the 90L MLT is a bit overkill.


----------



## MastersBrewery

The line to the BK needs to be seperate, otherwise you are closing off the input to the pump :huh:



ED: so to make things simpler the 't' piece and Valves need to be the other side of the pump and you should be all good


----------



## Camo6

MastersBrewery said:


> The line to the BK needs to be seperate, otherwise you are closing off the input to the pump :huh:
> 
> 
> 
> ED: so to make things simpler the 't' piece and Valves need to be the other side of the pump and you should be all good



Good spot. I guess Rosshorne could use gravity to sparge with that arrangement, but you'd be leaving the herms coil and hose full of wort and would be a shame not to be utilising the march to its full potential.


----------



## MastersBrewery

Camo6 I agree,
just didn't want to complicate maters, my other thought was there was not flow control at the pump except at the inlet side, which would create dramas, with either stuck mash or starving the pump. So as I see the diagram he requires the T off the pump( out put) with 2 valves and one one each vessel. A total of 5 valves, not 4. I would draw a diagram but lets face it; the above is a god damn master piece compared to what I could produce. (trying to empty a keg)

best thing I call that work


----------



## boybrewer

Put the T piece on the outlet of the pump with ball valves either side , one to the HLT and the other to the BK , that way you can govern the flow rate and switch from HLT to BK when sparging .


----------



## rosshorne

Thanks a bunch guys. I think I will start with controll of the HLT temperature and see how that goes/

Anyway, here is the updated 'god damn masterpiece':


----------



## Camo6

No biggie but you've got that inlet/outlets of the pump backwards.

I've never used a march but my kaixin is hard to prime when it has to push through the herms coil. You may need to disconnect and lower one of the hoses to prime the pump.


----------



## fcmcg

Nope , I reckon the way you have it is right..
I come outta the mash , into the pump and then pump or push into the herms coil.., out of that and back into the mash...
I do run a separate herms coil in a heat exchange though as I reckon it gives you better control on ramp times...


----------



## cat007

fergthebrewer said:


> Nope , I reckon the way you have it is right..
> I come outta the mash , into the pump and then pump or push into the herms coil.., out of that and back into the mash...
> I do run a separate herms coil in a heat exchange though as I reckon it gives you better control on ramp times...


Yes that is correct - but you have the in and the out of the pump round the wrong way


----------



## MastersBrewery

fergthebrewer said:


> Nope , I reckon the way you have it is right..
> I come outta the mash , into the pump and then pump or push into the herms coil.., out of that and back into the mash...
> I do run a separate herms coil in a heat exchange though as I reckon it gives you better control on ramp times...


Yep he has all lines and valves in the right spot, but the pump input is the centre and output is verticle. so pump as pictured is pumping oposite to the arrows


----------



## QldKev

If you are using a pump why are you staying with a 3 tier? Also are you going to fly sparge?


----------



## Truman42

rosshorne said:


> Thanks a bunch guys. I think I will start with controll of the HLT temperature and see how that goes/


As Yob already pointed out you really need to measure the temperature at your coil outlet or MLT inlet. Measuring the HLT temp won't be very accurate


----------



## boybrewer

You could connect a 'T' piece on the outlet of your coil and stick probe in one end of the 'T' piece by placing a cap on the end with a hole in the centre of the cap , feed the probe through it and silicone it up . I did this until I purchased a PID and temp probe. No leaks and it worked well .


----------



## Camo6

fergthebrewer said:


> Nope , I reckon the way you have it is right..
> I come outta the mash , into the pump and then pump or push into the herms coil.., out of that and back into the mash...
> I do run a separate herms coil in a heat exchange though as I reckon it gives you better control on ramp times...



If you're referring to my post I assume you misread it as I find a centrifugal pump works better with centrifugal force. :icon_cheers:

I too draw from the bottom of the MT, into the pump, then through a standalone heat exchanger and back into the mash. However, I find the pump will not self-prime due to, I suspect, resistance in the HEX coil route. Another brewer suggested somewhere in this thread to 'T' a bleed tap into the pump inlet or outlet. This works well with my setup and makes priming very easy and also helps collect the first run of grain that gets past the false bottom.

Rosshorne, with your arrangement you'll probably just need to disconnect and lower one of the outlet hoses to below the level of the mash to expel all the air and prime the pump. But, as I stated, I've no experience with March pumps and this may not be necessary.

Here's a pic of my arrangement:


----------



## Vanoontour

Hey Guys, I'm using a Big W pot for my HERMS and want to know how you guys with these have earthed them? I would rather not drill a hole in the base and use a bolt but if it can't be helped.....

Cheers,


----------



## Camo6

What element are you using? I think a lot use a metal enclosure over there exposed terminals and earth this which is in contact with the pot.


----------



## Vanoontour

A jug element. It is installed with no leaks but was checking the earthing and noticed the pot is not earthed due to the silicon seal.


----------



## squirt in the turns

vanoontour said:


> A jug element. It is installed with no leaks but was checking the earthing and noticed the pot is not earthed due to the silicon seal.


This is the exact same issue I encountered when putting a jug element in a 7L stockpot (both from K-Mart IIRC). I put a bolt through the base, into the jiffy box I'd glued to the bottom which housed the electrical connections, and earthed the bolt. Judicious use of silicone sealant prevented any leaks through the hole. I'd say the bolt method would be the only way to keep everything safe and contained. Otherwise you could do something ghetto like wrap some wire around the pot handle (and solder it there), and somehow run that to your earth connection.

Edit: spelling


----------



## dent

A bolt should seal perfectly if executed correctly. 

Use an M6 stainless steel socket head cap screw rather than a hex head bolt, so you have a nice round base of the bolt to work with. Make sure there are no rough edges remaining on the 6mm hole you drill. Do not use any washers on the inside of the pot. Fasten the bolt very tightly with a nut on the outside, then use a second nut to attach your earth lug. 

You will not need any silicon or O rings with this method; there will be a very watertight metal-to-metal seal with the bolt head on the inside.


----------



## squirt in the turns

dent said:


> A bolt should seal perfectly if executed correctly.
> 
> Use an M6 stainless steel socket head cap screw rather than a hex head bolt, so you have a nice round base of the bolt to work with. Make sure there are no rough edges remaining on the 6mm hole you drill. Do not use any washers on the inside of the pot. Fasten the bolt very tightly with a nut on the outside, then use a second nut to attach your earth lug.
> 
> You will not need any silicon or O rings with this method; there will be a very watertight metal-to-metal seal with the bolt head on the inside.


This is true, thank you dent.

When my Crown urn's sight gauge snapped off in the now somewhat infamous implosion incident, I put an M6 stainless bolt through the hole where the fitting used to go, and it's watertight without any gasket or sealant. I think when I was building my heat exchanger I was just itching to get my HERMS finished and grabbed whatever bolt was lying around.

vanoontour, do the above and only hit it with silicone as a last resort.


----------



## Vanoontour

Cheers guys. Used a bolt as suggested. Penny washer on the underside and worked a treat.


----------



## Fat Bastard

Heat exchanger insulation yea or nay?

Currently building a new one out of some stainless tube and am in two minds about it. It has a working volume of 2.5 liters, 2500 watts and runs a Herm-It coil. Should work better than the 8l 2000W Aldi urn but would like to lag it anyway as then I won't have to polish it! 

Does insulation cause problems with overshoot etc?

Interested to hear your thoughts.

Cheers,

FB


----------



## Camo6

I covered mine with armacell and found I was getting a bit more overshoot. I'm only using an stc1000 at this stage and was getting over .5c overshoot compared to about .3c without insulation. My vessel holds 4.5l however. I also find it easier to keep clean and dry and it looks shinier without. I'll be interested to see the differences when I switch to PID control.


----------



## sponge

For all of those who are running bigger elements (4.8kW etc) in their systems and have switches on their panels, what sort of switches are you using for the ~20A load?

I got myself some little illuminated 15A ones but haven't found anything for >20A without going to the industrial switchgear.

I was hoping to find something fairly small but still suitable for higher currents if anyone has any experience?


EDIT: The 15A ones I have will be fine for me for the next while as I won't be upgrading from my 2.4kW elements for a while, but since I have rated the gear in my enclosure for 25A (overkill, I know, but would rather have too much then not enough just in case) I was hoping to be able to upgrade these switches so that if I ever do upgrade to a bigger system I won't have to do anything to the panel and just upgrade the elements being used.


----------



## dent

> I'll be interested to see the differences when I switch to PID control.


Avoiding overshoot is one of the main reasons to use PID - so long as it is tuned halfway correctly.



> what sort of switches are you using for the ~20A load?


20A isn't that much for AC. Even something cheap like this would be fine. Heating elements aren't very hard on switches as there isn't much in the way of inrush like there would be for a motor.

http://au.element14.com/cherry/cre22f2bbrle/switch-rocker-spst-20a-250v-red/dp/1228447


----------



## QldKev

sponge said:


> For all of those who are running bigger elements (4.8kW etc) in their systems and have switches on their panels, what sort of switches are you using for the ~20A load?
> 
> I got myself some little illuminated 15A ones but haven't found anything for >20A without going to the industrial switchgear.
> 
> I was hoping to find something fairly small but still suitable for higher currents if anyone has any experience?


Why not get your electrician switch the main current with a relay/contactor, then the switch only sees a small load. You could even use a relay that switches the 240vac from a 12vdc coil. Here's one on ebay with nice screw terminals. That way the switch can't give you a boot should something go wrong.


----------



## shmang

QldKev said:


> Why not get your electrician switch the main current with a relay/contactor, then the switch only sees a small load. You could even use a relay that switches the 240vac from a 12vdc coil. Here's one on ebay with nice screw terminals. That way the switch can't give you a boot should something go wrong.


Switching with a contactor is best way to do it.
The switch may be rated to 20A, but I've burnt a few out through direct switching.


----------



## sponge

That's what I was worried about as well. I think I might just go down the relay route and keep it all ELV where possible, although I haven't got a tx for the ELV side, you can pick those up fairly cheaply. Probably helps having something like that there if I ever go down the actuated valve road as well.


----------



## a1149913

Hey guys, i'm kind of stuck in making a decision and was hoping you guys could push me into making it.

I'm trying to decide if i should put my HLT element in the side of the keg or attach it to the bottom having it point straight up the middle. The thought being that if its in the middle it wont contact the copper coil, however it means i'll need to lift the keg up slightly to fit the element box under the keg.

Any tips/hints/opinions?

Thanks, J


----------



## Camo6

Having it on the side will keep it at the one level so, depending on the length of the element, will remain under the water level for longer. Having it underneath will pose a hazard if the seal leaks.
I've mounted my hlt element on the side and as low as possible whereas my HEX element is mounted underneath as it was the easiest way to get a good seal and the water level doesn't change. Couple of ideas anyway.


----------



## idzy

Hi Guys,

I currently have a HERMS unit that has 8mt of Copper in it, not sure of the pot size but probably about 10ish litres. It has a kettle element in a metal box underneath. I am looking at building a new one.

Reasons for this are there is some oxidisation on the copper and although this blows out after a little bit, I would prefer to remove the copper out of the equation. I am also looking at boosting my ramp times. At the moment for a 50 litre batch worth of mash, I am getting quite slow ramp times, particularly when getting up towards the 70s. It means that I really need to reduce the flow to nearly stopped in order to hit mash temps.

I am thinking of:
1x BigW 19L
1x Stainless Steel 1/2" Annealed Coil - 15m
2x Kettle Element (2200w)

Just wanted to find out peoples thoughts. I am particularly interested in opinions on my choice of pot size. I see a lot of people using quite small pots, but I am thinking maybe part of the reason for my ramp issues is water thermal mass, but obviously this needs to be balanced with not too much thermal mass to prevent overshoots.

I am also planning to use this on a much bigger system, hence the reason for 2 elements. Interested to hear your thoughts.

I suppose my options are to build as above. Or to replace my current coil with stainless and add another element.

Cheers,
Idzy


----------



## sponge

I've got an electrician in our workshop doing the cut-outs and wiring of my new dual PID controller and enclosure to replace my current dual STC's.

I kept putting it off due to needing some new hole saws and whatnot to cut the enclosure but there's some sparkies that are a little short on work today and I just so happened to have the gear with me at my desk (as their manager gave me the thumbs up to bring it in one day incase work was a little slow for the sparkies).

I should have a nice PID controller ready to go this afternoon so will look at doing the plumbing mods tomorrow and hopefully tune the PID's with a water test on Sunday.


----------



## TheWiggman

idzy said:


> If you can do this, that's your better option. More power to the coil = more heat energy that can be transferred. Up the heat energy and you'll up the rate of temp change. Also, keep your water volume as small as possible.
> For 23l batches 2.7m of 12mm stainless has proven to be very effective, so if you're going larger I think it would be a safe bet to just increase your coil length proportionally. Also, the smaller the tube diameter the better, but make sure your pump has the power to deal with the resistance to flow.


----------



## sponge

sponge said:


> I've got an electrician in our workshop doing the cut-outs and wiring of my new dual PID controller and enclosure to replace my current dual STC's.
> 
> I kept putting it off due to needing some new hole saws and whatnot to cut the enclosure but there's some sparkies that are a little short on work today and I just so happened to have the gear with me at my desk (as their manager gave me the thumbs up to bring it in one day incase work was a little slow for the sparkies).
> 
> I should have a nice PID controller ready to go this afternoon so will look at doing the plumbing mods tomorrow and hopefully tune the PID's with a water test on Sunday.


The sparky is finishing it up now and lordy, it's a whole lot neater than what I would've put together myself, ferrules included.

The flying spaghetti monster has become a couple of nice, neat lines of red and black liquorice.

I won't be putting labels on it for now as I've just asked to have the HLT PID/pump controls on one side and the HEX PID/pump on the other for easy reference, but may throw some on when I get some time.

Either way, I should have something to play with over the weekend and get this tuned whilst I keep working on my bar setup.


----------



## idzy

TheWiggman said:


> If you can do this, that's your better option. More power to the coil = more heat energy that can be transferred. Up the heat energy and you'll up the rate of temp change. Also, keep your water volume as small as possible.
> For 23l batches 2.7m of 12mm stainless has proven to be very effective, so if you're going larger I think it would be a safe bet to just increase your coil length proportionally. Also, the smaller the tube diameter the better, but make sure your pump has the power to deal with the resistance to flow.


Thanks Wiggman. Inly question is - my understanding was that the larger the heat contact area the better the heat transfer. I.e. larger tubing?


----------



## sponge

Wouldn't smaller tubing have better heat contact as there is more coil surface area vs wort?

Similarly with increasing the length of the coil..


----------



## QldKev

I always thought you needed heaps of coils/length in the HERMS. After using Nev's (Gryphon) coil I have changed my mind. It's stainless, 12mm and only ~2.7m-3m long. It transfers as much heat as a kettle element can produce to the wort, so any extra length in this case is a waste. You simply cannot transfer any more heat than what is being produced. Some people have even reported being able to run 2 elements on this one coil, but I cannot comment on it as I have not done it (yet). IMHO you are better off using the smallest volume of water in the HERMS, the less water the less thermal mass so quicker it can respond. Therefore the shortest coil you can transfer the heat with is the best. I prefer to keep the 1/2" pipe as a minimum all the way through the system, any less and you will restrict the flow. To me a decent ramp that the mash bed does not lag behind needs a decent flow, hence anything under 1/2" is out. But I am brewing a 112L (wort) batch, so flow of a 23L could be a lot less in comparison.


----------



## TheWiggman

sponge said:


> Wouldn't smaller tubing have better heat contact as there is more coil surface area vs wort?
> 
> Similarly with increasing the length of the coil..


This is correct. For a given length of pipe, assume 100mm long, imagine the two scenerios -

1. Very skinny like a pen ink tube
2. 10m in diamater

With heat applied to the outside, which of these two options would heat the entire volume of liquid in the pipe faster? The skinny one of course. This is the basic principle why having a smaller pipe will allow more rapid heat transfer. There is obviously a lot more to it than this, and as QldKev says you'll suffer from flow restictions if the pipe is too narrow/long. Fine for positive displacement pumps with enough power, no good for centrifugal pumps.

Your comment about the pipe length QldKev is partly right. Minimising water volume is the goal, but the longer the pipe with heat applied to it the more opportunity for the heat to transfer. The ratio of pipe volume : water volume is the critical factor I believe. Generally with a larger pot the ratio will drop due to diamater and affect your ramp times due to the fact the element needs to heat the additional water. The HERMS coil seems to be an ideal ratio in reality.
In an extreme case, if you put say 10kW of energy into a single HERMS in a little PVC pipe, you will probably find the temp in the water will greatly overshoot your HERMS output temp as there is not enough heat transfer able to occur over a 2.5m pipe length to equalise energy in = energy out. The only way to overcome this would be to add more length, and increase flow up to a point.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Not sure I posted this so...
Trialed my 3kw PVC HX on a 50L brew, I did get better ramp times (the aim) but i did get deformation of the PVC HX.
I forgot to put a vent hole in the top so this may have caused the problem. Any part that had water in it was fine but where there was air it deformed.
Still works fine but looks munted.
Nev


----------



## idzy

TheWiggman said:


> This is correct. For a given length of pipe, assume 100mm long, imagine the two scenerios -
> 
> 1. Very skinny like a pen ink tube
> 2. 10m in diamater
> 
> With heat applied to the outside, which of these two options would heat the entire volume of liquid in the pipe faster? The skinny one of course. This is the basic principle why having a smaller pipe will allow more rapid heat transfer. There is obviously a lot more to it than this, and as QldKev says you'll suffer from flow restictions if the pipe is too narrow/long. Fine for positive displacement pumps with enough power, no good for centrifugal pumps.
> 
> Your comment about the pipe length QldKev is partly right. Minimising water volume is the goal, but the longer the pipe with heat applied to it the more opportunity for the heat to transfer. The ratio of pipe volume : water volume is the critical factor I believe. Generally with a larger pot the ratio will drop due to diamater and affect your ramp times due to the fact the element needs to heat the additional water. The HERMS coil seems to be an ideal ratio in reality.
> In an extreme case, if you put say 10kW of energy into a single HERMS in a little PVC pipe, you will probably find the temp in the water will greatly overshoot your HERMS output temp as there is not enough heat transfer able to occur over a 2.5m pipe length to equalise energy in = energy out. The only way to overcome this would be to add more length, and increase flow up to a point.


Wiggman, your information differs significantly to Boerderij_Kabouter at the following thread:
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/stainless-steel-copper-herms-coil-138139/

I would be interested in hearing the science. For example, what you are saying makes sense, but so does what he is saying.

EDIT: Again - I am not an engineer and discounting issues with pumps. A quick look on a tube calculator tells me a 12mm tube 3m long has more surface area than a 3mm tube 13m long.


----------



## MartinOC

> Not sure I posted this so...
> Trialed my 3kw PVC HX on a 50L brew, I did get better ramp times (the aim) but i did get deformation of the PVC HX.
> I forgot to put a vent hole in the top so this may have caused the problem. Any part that had water in it was fine but where there was air it deformed.
> Still works fine but looks munted.
> Nev


Nev, how much better were your ramp-times compared to the original 2Kw element?


----------



## dent

TheWiggman said:


> . The ratio of pipe volume : water volume is the critical factor I believe.
> 
> ...
> 
> In an extreme case, if you put say 10kW of energy into a single HERMS in a little PVC pipe, you will probably find the temp in the water will greatly overshoot your HERMS output temp as there is not enough heat transfer able to occur over a 2.5m pipe length to equalise energy in = energy out. The only way to overcome this would be to add more length, and increase flow up to a point.


The surface area of the coil is more the point. A circular profile coil is actually the least ideal from a heat transfer perspective - look at the shape of the plates inside a plate chiller for something more appropriate. Obviously a round tube is handy for other reasons. The volume inside the coil isn't a primary factor IMO.

I wouldn't be surprised if the regular small stainless HERM-IT coil could indeed handle 10kW of input power - with enough flow. The real question is, can the heating element keep the HX boiling when the pump is pushing wort through the coil at full flow?


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## TheWiggman

idzy said:


> Wiggman, your information differs significantly to Boerderij_Kabouter at the following thread:
> http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/stainless-steel-copper-herms-coil-138139/
> 
> I would be interested in hearing the science. For example, what you are saying makes sense, but so does what he is saying.
> 
> EDIT: Again - I am not an engineer and discounting issues with pumps. A quick look on a tube calculator tells me a 12mm tube 3m long has more surface area than a 3mm tube 13m long.


Convection is the interaction that is is allowing the heat transfer. If there is a difference in termperature between the pipe and the fluid, thermal transfer will occur. There are three primary factors at play - flow at the interface between the pipe surface and the fluid, the difference in termperature between the pipe surface and the fluid, and the coefficient of conductivity of the surface.

Let's only look at the inside of the pipe. Because this transfer occurs at the boundary layer between the fluid and pipe, there will be a heat gradient between the boundary layer and the centre of the fluid (i.e. slice a pipe in half so you have a circle. In the case we're ramping up our mash, the liquid touching the pipe wall will be hottest and the liquid in the middle will be coolest).
The fluid will be cooler than the pipe until they are equal at the boundary layer. It will then take time for the heat to transfer through the liquid. Hence, the smaller the diameter, the quicker this transfer will occur and all of your liquid will be at the same temp of the pipe.
Where I'd challenge Boer...blah is the relationship between the volume of liquid and the exposure to the convective surface.

Volume = cross section area x length.
Pipe exposure area = diameter x length

Volume is a squared relationship (Pi x r^2), diameter is proportional. As the pipe diameter increases, the volume to surface area ratio decreases. If this doesn't make sense, look at the numbers -

1m long Ø12 pipe
Volume = 1.1309 E-4 m^3
Surface area = 0.0377 m^2
Ratio = 333.36 area:voume

1m long Ø100 pipe
Volume = 7.854 E-3 m^3
Surface area = 0.3141 m^2
Ratio = 39.99 area:volume

Like my example earlier, the smaller the pipe the better for a given flow velocity. I'll stand by this to my grave.

So, back to my first 3 factors-

The higher the velocity, the more effective the convection
The greater the difference in temp, the faster the rate of change
The better coefficent of thermal conductivity, the more effective the convection
In reality, you can observe a two-way process going on. The wort is cooling the HERMS water, and the HERMS water in turn is heating your wort. Let's ignore this but it's worth considering to understand how the interaction works.

Regarding pipe volume vs. water volume ratio, look at an ideal system. To me, an ideal system is one that will make wort come out of the HERMS at the temp we want it to come out. In at 56°C, out at 67°C for our sacc rest.
If a Ø12mm HERMS pipe was infinitely long and the HERMS water was 67°C, the wort would come out at 67°C. If the pipe was 50mm long, you need to address it with any of the three factors above (slow the wort down or increase HERMS temp). Alternatively, if the water was only 1mm thick between the pipe and the heating element then the heat will be applied almost directly and the rate of change will be huge. So either minimise your water or maximise the length of tube, but fundamentally this could be treated as a ratio between the water volume and pipe volume.

Don't misunderstand the technicality as arrogance, I've tried to stay away from long words, but more clarity is required because there's a lot of observational comments going on. That said, with systems like this I look at the extremes - if the pipe was 1mm long vs. 1km, which would work better? This will almost always lead you in the right direction.


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## idzy

Wiggman, thank you. Really appreciate your thoughtful response. The most obvious factor that was not included in my thinking is the volume in the pipe vs. the surface area of the pipe. Definitely agree with you on the observational comments, hence me asking the question.

Once again, thank you for the reply.

EDIT: I think from a practicality point of view and also to prevent flow restrictions, I will keep my design at 12mm, but it does raise the question of coil length, displaced volume and heating output.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

MartinOC said:


> Nev, how much better were your ramp-times compared to the original 2Kw element?


Martin
I didnt actually do the ramp times as it was a late afternoon spare of the moment brew.
I can just say signification, at a guess 1c per min in 50L brew but need to be verified.
Nev


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## TheWiggman

I've had some time to go over the text books and want to confirm one thing. For a given:

Flow rate 
Pipe length

The larger the pipe diameter, the greater the heat transfer. I can supply equations if boringly required. 

This might sound like a fallback on the previous post. The principle still remains that if you have a certain amount of space to play with, use the smallest diameter pipe and cram as much of it in there as possible (provided your pump can tolerate the additional restriction).


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## idzy

Thanks Wiggman - that makes sense and kind of makes you guys both right  Once again, appreciate the input.


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## dent

Is the flow rate in the equations a distance/time or a volume/time ?


----------



## nathan_madness

Well I have just tested my HERMS last weekend. I have a 5L SS vessel with a 4Kw element and a 4m long 1/2" SS coil.

I have tested it with water in the HX vessel and had 1.98°c per minute rise with 60L of water and also with canola oil in the HX vessel and had 1.35°c per minute with 60L of water.

On Sunday I did a triple batch of British Extra Special so 13Kg of grain with 53L of water in the MLT. Using water in the HX vessel I was achieving 1.4°c per min rise through all my steps (35°c>42°c>56°>64°c>76°c). One thing that I did notice was the flow rate as it was my first time testing the MLT. I could have the pump running at 8L per minute. When I mashed in I was around 4L per minute on the pump and I was getting about .7°c per minute rise.


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## fcmcg

Can I ask why you used canola oil in the HX ?


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## TheWiggman

dent said:


> Is the flow rate in the equations a distance/time or a volume/time ?


Volume/time. Obviously as the diameter increases, velocity slows in ye olde squared relationship. Essentially this means more contact time with the pipe.


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## Yob

fergthebrewer said:


> Can I ask why you used canola oil in the HX ?


Didn't have extra virgin?


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## nathan_madness

I was testing with oil in the HX to see if it would hold heat better and also it would not need to be topped up as often. It was just too slow to get the heat in to the oil so it was ditched for good old water.


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## Camo6

I've never had to top up my HX during a brew. It never really boils unless I turn the pump off and leave the element on. YMMV.


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## nathan_madness

It wasn't a brew by brew top up I was thinking. As you can see in these pics my element is vertical in the HX and is close to the top and also it is not the easiest lid to get off because of the plumbing.









I have solved the problem with a float guage so I know when the water is low and needs topping up.


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## Camo6

Nice insulation! What's your HX vessel made from?


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## nathan_madness

I made it out of some SS from the scrap metal dealer. It was a massive heat exchange unit. The outer is what I made HX out of and if you look at the pipe in the middle of my MLT (pic below) they were the inner lines. There were about 15-20 inner lines fitted inside the 125mm diameter pipe. It must have been massive as it was all cut in to 1.5m lengths and dumped in the bin and it was crammed full. Best $25 spent.


----------



## sponge

I had my PID enclosure finished and set up over the weekend (parameters for now - including both offsets for the PT100's - and will tune the PID's this weekend). I just have the single supply for now, but designed it for two 25A supplies for up to 6kW (definitely overkill, but like to have the option) if I ever wanted for when we move into our next place, which will hopefully be at the start of next year. I decided for two separate supplies as opposed to one 50A supply due to easier access to suitable hardware and smaller cables. Plus I liked the idea of having the enclosure split for HLT on the left and HERMS on the right.

I've just got a 15A outlet and cable for now which feeds both RCD's, so will only be able to use 1 element at a time until we move, but that's all I've been doing for now with my STC1000 controllers so not really an issue. The PID's are able to be switched on and off via the red switches, similarly with the pumps and the green switches. Not sure if I'll worry about labels, although they probably would be a nice touch. I've left room at the bottom of the enclosure just in case I decide to add anything else down the track, like multi-function meters..

The two flush mount outlets are for either pump, and the other black cables for the supplies to the HLT and HERMS elements. I'll just need to upgrade the element supplies and glands if I decide to go above 2.4kW.


----------



## Mzungu

Gday, I have got a rex c100 PID and a Fotek 40amp ssr (setting up a cheap hex). Now I cant get the PID to switch the ssr, the PID 'out' light clicks on but the ssr light doesn't come on and obviously no power to the Kmart jug. I have wired it all up and switched the DC +/- in case I got it the wrong way(like I did the Temp probe). I've hit it with a hacked up 12V 1amp charger to test the ssr, which works fine and runs the jug. My question is, can the c100 switch a 40amp ssr? which would mean mine is busted or do I just need a 10amp or 25amp ssr?

Cheers!


----------



## QldKev

post a pic of the wiring, and a link to the source of the rex


----------



## Camo6

a link that indicates the PID might be designed for mechanical relay output.


----------



## boybrewer

If you purchased the REX PID online from China they don't work . FYI I have a PID with a 40 AMP SSR and it works a treat .


----------



## Mzungu

Camo6 said:


> a link that indicates the PID might be designed for mechanical relay output.


Thanks Camo6, vid explains alot and makes it work. But it seems you get what you pay for, what PID would you guys recomend


----------



## Camo6

I've been putting off an order with Auber Instruments for a while now due to re-allocated funds, delivery costs and the weak Aussie dollar. The SYL-2352 and SYL-2352P seem to be the most popular choices.

Other options include AHB suppliers like brewrig.com.au who have some competitive prices and a range of controller accessories.

I'm slowly snagging bits and pieces here and there off ebay to offset the costs of my own build, so if you find some super deals let us know.


----------



## QldKev

Mzungu said:


> Thanks Camo6, vid explains alot and makes it work. But it seems you get what you pay for, what PID would you guys recomend


without knowing exactly which model you have we don't know, and since you choose to ignore my questions... I'm not offering YOU any more assistance.


----------



## Camo6

Don't be too harsh Kev. Anyone who knows you would be a fool to ignore your advice. You're posts have helped me on numerous occasions and I've frequented your site a fair few times.
I reckon I lurked on this site for a good couple of years because I was reluctant to invoke resentment due to the mysteries of forum etiquette. Thank God that's all behind me!


----------



## Mzungu

QldKev said:


> without knowing exactly which model you have we don't know, and since you choose to ignore my questions... I'm not offering YOU any more assistance.


Sorry mate no hard feelings, I got rather excited and carried away with Camo6's video link. Here is a pic of the REX-C100 FK02*M*AN, just ignore the shabby wiring:






It did end up working by following the video instructions.



Camo6 said:


> I've been putting off an order with Auber Instruments for a while now due to re-allocated funds, delivery costs and the weak Aussie dollar. The SYL-2352 and SYL-2352P seem to be the most popular choices.
> 
> Other options include AHB suppliers like brewrig.com.au who have some competitive prices and a range of controller accessories.
> 
> I'm slowly snagging bits and pieces here and there off ebay to offset the costs of my own build, so if you find some super deals let us know.


Cheers, I might just skip the c100 and get SYL-2352.


----------



## QldKev

Camo6 said:


> Don't be too harsh Kev. Anyone who knows you would be a fool to ignore your advice. You're posts have helped me on numerous occasions and I've frequented your site a fair few times.
> I reckon I lurked on this site for a good couple of years because I was reluctant to invoke resentment due to the mysteries of forum etiquette. Thank God that's all behind me!



Hopefully I come across as more a good guy than a bad one. Most people will agree I'll try my best to help anyone (hopefully). I've gained a lot of knowledge from this site and am happy to give it all back.





Mzungu said:


> Sorry mate no hard feelings, I got rather excited and carried away with Camo6's video link. Here is a pic of the REX-C100 FK02*M*AN, just ignore the shabby wiring:
> 
> <<pic removed>>
> 
> It did end up working by following the video instructions.
> 
> Cheers, I might just skip the c100 and get SYL-2352.



There are 2 models of the rex, a relay driven and a SSR output version. It's the same for the Sestos (talk about soon) and also the Auber. As above you have a link to the Auber SSR version. A relay version switches a given feed, and a SSR one produces a 12vdc output.

You can use the existing Rex (assuming the relay version, if it was the correct SSR version we would not be having this chat) to switch a SSR. Just run a 12vdc feed via the rex's internal relay and it will work with a SSR ok. The issue is the pid will only switch at a relay speed. Not so good for a HERMS/RIMS as it means a slower switching speed. It will work, but just not the perfect world. If you do that mod in the video you do have an unknown feed potential and may exceed the potential of the device.

If you get a true SSR version of a pid it will switch off/on a lot faster (we are talking ms times to pulse the element). The rex is not my preferred choice. The auber are awesome and are the top end. There is a Sestos pid in the gap. Since you are not looking at a programmable pid the Sestos are a great unit to consider, I run 2 in one of my control panels. They do come in both relay and SSR versions.
D1S-2R-220 so basically what you have a relay version - no good
D1S-CR-220 version which works on current - ignore this for what we need
D1S-VR-220  so basically a voltage driven version for a typical SSR, which is what you need. First link I found, you may find a better price.

also make sure you are looking at a 220 version and not a 12 / 24v version. Note the last digits in the model number.


... any info given here is to discuss with your electrician and not for home wiring jobs.


----------



## Mzungu

Thanks for the info QldKev, I will look further into PIDs


----------



## gava

Not sure if this has come up but does has anyone notice if there is any difference when you put your pump connector at the bottom of your HERMS coil pushing the wort up around the herm v's the top using gravity "pulling" the wort down the coil? Or is there not enough head pressure to make any difference?

-Gav


----------



## Truman42

gava said:


> Not sure if this has come up but does has anyone notice if there is any difference when you put your pump connector at the bottom of your HERMS coil pushing the wort up around the herm v's the top using gravity "pulling" the wort down the coil? Or is there not enough head pressure to make any difference?
> 
> -Gav


Your pump should be before your herms pushing the wort through the coil. If you put your pump on the otherside of your herms and pull the wort through you risk stallin your pump and/ or it cavitating etc.

My pump is at the very bottom of my brew stand. All vessels gravity feed into the pump and is then pushed back up into the herms or kettle.

Also.. (And you may already know this) make sure your wort inlet is connected to the part that goes into the hex coil and straight to the bottom then spirals around and back out. I originaly had it connected the other way and the pump was trying to push air bubbles through all the coils and the resistance and extra length slowed and stopped the pump (Using LBP at the time) so I couldnt get it started.
When you do it the other way the air bubbles will rise up through the coils easily making priming your system much easier.


----------



## QldKev

As Truman said, all back pressure on mag pumps (March, Kaixin) must be post pump. Never allow any mag drive pump to pull wort. This includes if you want to reduce flow via a ball valve, always on the return line.


----------



## Camo6

Pumping from the bottom will make it easier to purge air from the system.


----------



## gava

Truman said:


> Your pump should be before your herms pushing the wort through the coil. If you put your pump on the otherside of your herms and pull the wort through you risk stallin your pump and/ or it cavitating etc.
> 
> My pump is at the very bottom of my brew stand. All vessels gravity feed into the pump and is then pushed back up into the herms or kettle.
> 
> Also.. (And you may already know this) make sure your wort inlet is connected to the part that goes into the hex coil and straight to the bottom then spirals around and back out. I originaly had it connected the other way and the pump was trying to push air bubbles through all the coils and the resistance and extra length slowed and stopped the pump (Using LBP at the time) so I couldnt get it started.
> When you do it the other way the air bubbles will rise up through the coils easily making priming your system much easier.


I think i phrased it wrong.... I know you need to push the wort into the HERMS from a lower position, my question was about which INLET of the HERMS to connect to which you answered in your second part. 
Cheers

-Gav


----------



## TheWiggman

In saying that... do people here find the Kaixin pumps (MP-15) struggle to pump through the HERM-IT coil? Mine pumps ok, but there's no need to throttle flow during a mash. If the coil was much longer I think they wouldn't be good enough for the job.


----------



## Rieewoldt

Hi fellas

I am currently planning a 3v herms system, based on the electric brewery. Main differences I will just have the 1 PID for mash temp control, and I'm going to use my mongolian burner on the boil kettle.

My query is this - The electric brewery has their RTD on the mash tun suction ball valve, I was considering moving this to the HLT Hex discharge, that way the element in the kettle is working directly to maintain mash temp - it will see that the mash temp is low and heat the HLT accordingly instead of perhaps having a differential between HLT temp and the returning wort. It will also mean that the returning wort has less opportunity to cool before re-entering the MT.

Am I missing something here?


----------



## TheWiggman

I can't speak for the electric brewery, but the consensus here is that you take the measurement from the point where the wort will be hottest. That is of course out of you heat exchanger. 
It reduces the real of overshoot for one, and the second reason is to do with the actual enzymatic activity going on in the wort itself. Check out posts in the first few pages of this thread.


----------



## Rieewoldt

TheWiggman said:


> I can't speak for the electric brewery, but the consensus here is that you take the measurement from the point where the wort will be hottest. That is of course out of you heat exchanger.
> It reduces the real of overshoot for one, and the second reason is to do with the actual enzymatic activity going on in the wort itself. Check out posts in the first few pages of this thread.


That makes sense. You want to know that the temp is most accurate where all the action is.


----------



## neal32

Kayne said:


> Hi fellas
> 
> I am currently planning a 3v herms system, based on the electric brewery. Main differences I will just have the 1 PID for mash temp control, and I'm going to use my mongolian burner on the boil kettle.
> 
> My query is this - The electric brewery has their RTD on the mash tun suction ball valve, I was considering moving this to the HLT Hex discharge, that way the element in the kettle is working directly to maintain mash temp - it will see that the mash temp is low and heat the HLT accordingly instead of perhaps having a differential between HLT temp and the returning wort. It will also mean that the returning wort has less opportunity to cool before re-entering the MT.
> 
> Am I missing something here?


Nope. That's how I have mine setup, with the probe on the outlet of the HEX coil. I also run the recirculation flat out with a March AC-3CP-MD and the temperature at the mash return is exactly the same as the PID. Measured with a Thermopen  I recommend the Auber PID's and the good probes they have. I run a Blichmann burner instead of an electric boil, wouldn't change anything about my setup.


----------



## gava

I've also had a rig working the same with the probe on the herms out which worked fine, I'd recommend a hand held digital temp gauge to check your mash just to double check your mash is the same. If it is then your good to go, if not you'll have to adjust your herms set point to allow for the lost of temp, better double check than assume it's the same.

Gav


----------



## mb-squared

Kayne said:


> Hi fellas
> 
> I am currently planning a 3v herms system, based on the electric brewery. Main differences I will just have the 1 PID for mash temp control, and I'm going to use my mongolian burner on the boil kettle.
> 
> My query is this - The electric brewery has their RTD on the mash tun suction ball valve, I was considering moving this to the HLT Hex discharge, that way the element in the kettle is working directly to maintain mash temp - it will see that the mash temp is low and heat the HLT accordingly instead of perhaps having a differential between HLT temp and the returning wort. It will also mean that the returning wort has less opportunity to cool before re-entering the MT.
> 
> Am I missing something here?


Just to clarify, the Electric Brewery has RTDs in the bottom "out" ball valves of the MT and HLT. But it is the RTD on the HLT that governs the heating element. This is the hottest point in the system during the mash. Assuming you are getting less than 100% heat exchange through the HERMS coil in the HLT, then measuring the temp at the HERMS out will give you a slightly lower reading than the temp of the HLT. That means that your element (or burner if you are like me) will run a bit longer, heating your HLT up beyond the target temp, which will eventually translate into overshoots in the MT temps. 

I have a gas version of the electric brewery and I have found through much trial and error that Kal has it right. Temp probes put anywhere else tend to produce temp overshoots in my experience.


----------



## gava

mb-squared said:


> Just to clarify, the Electric Brewery has RTDs in the bottom "out" ball valves of the MT and HLT. But it is the RTD on the HLT that governs the heating element. This is the hottest point in the system during the mash. Assuming you are getting less than 100% heat exchange through the HERMS coil in the HLT, then measuring the temp at the HERMS out will give you a slightly lower reading than the temp of the HLT. That means that your element (or burner if you are like me) will run a bit longer, heating your HLT up beyond the target temp, which will eventually translate into overshoots in the MT temps.
> 
> I have a gas version of the electric brewery and I have found through much trial and error that Kal has it right. Temp probes put anywhere else tend to produce temp overshoots in my experience.


You are correct, How I read what he said above was they had a "HERMS" standalone pot not a herms coil in the HLT (was early, damn day light savings and a 1 year old gettup up at 4am)
I have tested with using the MLT probe to set my HLT temp which produces overshooting even after tuning my pids. Much easier to keep it the same way as Kal in this configuration.

I currently have my MLT probe in the front of the pot which ONLY displays my temp, it doesn't control anything to do with it, the HLT pid controls the HLT temp which in turn controls my MASH via the HERMS coil within the pot. Once you dial in your rig this works pretty well. Saying that I do miss my stand alone HERMS pot, I've wired my control panel for easy integration in the future but for now this works.

-Gav


----------



## mb-squared

Hey Gav, with you on the time change and kids waking up. 

Yep, Kal's MT PID is just so he can see the temp of the MT. It doesn't actually do anything. Overkill in my mind, but it does make for a beautiful control panel


----------



## gava

mb-squared said:


> Hey Gav, with you on the time change and kids waking up.
> 
> Yep, Kal's MT PID is just so he can see the temp of the MT. It doesn't actually do anything. Overkill in my mind, but it does make for a beautiful control panel


I was going to use a temp gauge in the front of the pot but it doesn't have the 'bling' factor , I had to go the PID route plus easier to see the temp and I'm all about making it easier for myself.
If I didn't sell my other rig and have the budget my control panel would look a lot different I'd say.


----------



## Rieewoldt

Sorry guys if my wording was confusing (night shifts!). The coil will be in Hlt. As thus.
Hopefully IT makes more sense


----------



## mb-squared

Yep, looks good to me, but I'd move that RTD down to the HLT-out valve.


----------



## Rieewoldt

mb-squared said:


> Yep, looks good to me, but I'd move that RTD down to the HLT-out valve.


Thanks mate, I was just thinking that having it where it is would have the element work directly to maintain the mash temp, instead of the water in which the mash recirculates.

What have you found to be the benefits of having it at bottom of hlt


----------



## TheWiggman

mb-squared said:


> Just to clarify, the Electric Brewery has RTDs in the bottom "out" ball valves of the MT and HLT. But it is the RTD on the HLT that governs the heating element. This is the hottest point in the system during the mash. Assuming you are getting less than 100% heat exchange through the HERMS coil in the HLT, then measuring the temp at the HERMS out will give you a slightly lower reading than the temp of the HLT. That means that your element (or burner if you are like me) will run a bit longer, heating your HLT up beyond the target temp, which will eventually translate into overshoots in the MT temps.
> 
> I have a gas version of the electric brewery and I have found through much trial and error that Kal has it right. Temp probes put anywhere else tend to produce temp overshoots in my experience.


I don't think this is entirely the case. It all depends on how it you have your PID set up. If you're measuring HERMS out then the PID will control the temp of the HLT so it is slightly higher than or the same as the wort, and hopefully stabilise there. Saying it will heat up and overshoot is not correct; if it's PID controlled, then the parameters need to be set to suit the system and you can certainly avoid overshoot. Obviously things like ramp times may have to be sacrificed.
For reference, I look at one temp in my system - HERMS out. The element is controlled to achieve this, and I'm not bothered by other temps. I have another PID for the HLT which I turn on prior to sparging.


----------



## mb-squared

Kayne said:


> What have you found to be the benefits of having it at bottom of hlt


please see my post above: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/41110-dedicated-herms-guide-problems-and-solution-thread/page-53#entry1159515

along with Gav's post immediately below that one.


----------



## Rieewoldt

mb-squared said:


> please see my post above: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/41110-dedicated-herms-guide-problems-and-solution-thread/page-53#entry1159515
> 
> along with Gav's post immediately below that one.


All good mate, thanks for the advices. Think I'll trial a few different options, thanks mate.


----------



## mb-squared

TheWiggman said:


> I don't think this is entirely the case. It all depends on how it you have your PID set up. If you're measuring HERMS out then the PID will control the temp of the HLT so it is slightly higher than or the same as the wort, and hopefully stabilise there. Saying it will heat up and overshoot is not correct; if it's PID controlled, then the parameters need to be set to suit the system and you can certainly avoid overshoot. Obviously things like ramp times may have to be sacrificed.


Hi Wiggman, I don't use a PID, so I'm in no position to agree or disagree with you. But Gav uses a PID and he seems to agree that Kal has got it figured out. Of course, ultimately, I don't think it matters that much where you put your probe. so long as you're consistent and tune your system accordingly.


----------



## gava

From what I've found with the Electric brewery probe placement...

Trying to use your MLT temp to control your HLT (Herms) results in overshooting.. Since the grain bed lags behind the ramp speed temp of your HLT you WILL see over shooting. I guess you could tune your PID for slow ramp speed which will approach the temperature and should not over shoot but I'd rather a quicker RAMP Speed for the sake of moving one probe. 

I can't comment on reading the temp directly from the HERMS out point to control the temp since I have not tried this. In my mind that's pretty much that same as reading your HLT temperature if your exchange is in good working order give or take.. It's all about tuning your system to get the end result.

BUT as for reading your MLT temp to control your HLT in the configuration of the HERM Coil in the HLT I don't recommend, Due to the fact that your RAMP speed would have to be slow to not overshoot.. although I could be missing something.. 

-Gav


----------



## TheWiggman

mb-squared said:


> Hi Wiggman, I don't use a PID, so I'm in no position to agree or disagree with you. But Gav uses a PID and he seems to agree that Kal has got it figured out. Of course, ultimately, I don't think it matters that much where you put your probe. so long as you're consistent and tune your system accordingly.


No PID? Altogether different. As gav said below you, once you understand the system you will know how to achieve temps.


----------



## Eddiejoes

Hi Guys,

Have my controller components on the way and am a bit concerned about what happens once I get it wired up and then plug it in. I have two (of the hopefully not so notorious newer keg king) 2200w electric elements which I was hoping to run through a controller with my 2 auber pids to control my HLT and HERMS unit (Nev's HERM-IT). As I don't have an outside power socket I had been planning on running an extension from the kitchen and plugging it into that but I've been advised that I'll trip a standard domestic circuit. I've been offered the following of solutions but as I'm clueless when it comes to all things electrical I need help.

1. Run a dedicated 230v 32a to an outdoor socket and use that
2. Build 2 separate controllers and run 2 extension cables from the house using different circuits to power one each
3. Build 2 separate controllers and have 2 dedicated 230v 10a installed outside one for each

Be gentle


----------



## dent

If you ask Nev, he can build you the secret deluxe controller which has two PID controlled outputs. This can run your HERMS HX and HLT at once. It can do this by running the HLT when the HX is not running. There is also an adjustable overload margin. 

This way you can run both from the one 10A outlet.

Otherwise you can emulate the same thing with standalone PID units along with some extra relays.


----------



## gava

Save the head ache run a 32amp circuit. I've got one 20amp and two 10amps and its a head ache.. cost to get a 40amp now I $550.. do it probably first go..


----------



## QldKev

Eddiejoes said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Have my controller components on the way and am a bit concerned about what happens once I get it wired up and then plug it in. I have two (of the hopefully not so notorious newer keg king) 2200w electric elements which I was hoping to run through a controller with my 2 auber pids to control my HLT and HERMS unit (Nev's HERM-IT). As I don't have an outside power socket I had been planning on running an extension from the kitchen and plugging it into that but I've been advised that I'll trip a standard domestic circuit. I've been offered the following of solutions but as I'm clueless when it comes to all things electrical I need help.
> 
> 1. Run a dedicated 230v 32a to an outdoor socket and use that
> 2. Build 2 separate controllers and run 2 extension cables from the house using different circuits to power one each
> 3. Build 2 separate controllers and have 2 dedicated 230v 10a installed outside one for each
> 
> Be gentle



I see a huge issue _"I have two (of the hopefully not so notorious newer keg king) 2200w electric elements"_ I purchased 2, and within 2 weeks the first one went bang with a blue flame out the side and smoke. 6 weeks later the second one went the same way. I'm never buying anything from them again, IMHO they are the worse supplier to buy anything.

To answer your question,
Have you seen my and Truman's controller build. We wanted to keep to a maximum of 10amp per circuit to allow moving etc without heaps of house wiring. My control panel has 4 x 10amp feeds.


----------



## dent

> Have you seen my and Truman's controller build.


Got a link to the wiring?


----------



## QldKev

dent said:


> Got a link to the wiring?


http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/72614-my-brew-controller-box/


Obviously this level of wiring is done by a qualified sparky.


----------



## dent

So you've basically got four separate controllers in one box, fair enough. Only trouble I see with people copying that arrangement is that many cheaper/older/crappier houses only have one or two power circuits. But they should know before they start, like you say.

If there truly is only 10A available, this is one way of getting both happening:






(Probably should have used ground symbol rather than earth - it is DC ground)

So the normally closed contact of the relay opens when the HX SSR is activated, preventing the HLT from activating at the same time. When your mash is at rest, the duty cycle on the HX side is quite low, so that leaves plenty of time for the HLT side to get cranking.

The HERMIT controller has the added benefit of making them overlap a little if desired, so you can push your luck some or use a 15A outlet for instance.


----------



## Burt de Ernie

Alrighty.....Im gunna throw my hat into the ring.

I know it would be a lot more intelligent to learn from the more experienced players on AHB however for some unknown reason I always have to be different.

After reading all these HERMS posts for which I am most impressed, I have decided to retrofit a HERMS setup to my rig however my rig is not electric. My heat source for mashing is a LPG Rinnai instantaneous heater.

Based on this I have had to come up with something which I believe is totally unique (if anyone has seen this before please link so I can learn from others mistakes). Instead of using a S/S pot and coil I have found myself a 500mm piece of type B copper (actually I got it from a plumber mate of mine).

This is the sketch diagram of my proposal.



These are some of the components



Basically the Rinnai will keep 85 degree water circulating over the herms coil. I had to use copper as the flow and return loop is under 250kps of pressure. At this stage I am going to have to use a series of 1/2" copper elbows to turn the herms coil at the ends which will allow me to get 5-6 meters of 1/2" pipe into the 100mm copper.

FYI...this is a pic of my rig currently




Before I make this thing does anyone have any input?


----------



## dent

A couple things:

As usual the probe should be on the output of your heat exchanger. In your case, with the possibility of no flow, in the output but also under the mash liquor.

I guess you're using the thermostat to turn the pump on and off. OK. Only real problem I see with this is the wort sitting in your heat exchanger will probably get hotter than you'd like when the pump is not running. So you may have difficulty getting the expected attenuation on your ferments. Or it might be just fine. 

Does the instantaneous heater just go on/off or is there some kind of proportional control?


----------



## Burt de Ernie

Dent,

Yes you are correct....the thermostat controls the pump.

The instantaneous heater/Herms vessel temp (IE the flow and return loop) can be set to 50, 60, 65 75 or 85 degrees. It is setting adjustment built into the heater.

In relation to the wort sitting in the HEX when not circulating....this is a fantastic point you make. the answer is to locater the herms vessel above the MLT. This will ensure the wort drains from the pipe work when the pump stops running...Thanks.

With the location of the probe... I am confused. My understanding is that the MLT temp would stipulate when the pump runs....


----------



## dent

Yeah but by the time the probe gets heated up, half your mash is over your set temperature. Since you're mainly interested in the highest temperature of the system as far as enzymatic conversion is concerned, putting the probe at the hottest point, and the point that is quickest to respond, is considered best.

Even with the HX held over the mash, the only way your wort will drain out when the pump isn't running is if your tube is a large enough diameter, and the outlet held over the mash (with an air gar), to allow a bubble to traverse all the way up your tubing. Even then, when it gets to the top of the first loop it will stop, so you'll still have a bunch of wort trapped in there.


----------



## Burt de Ernie

Noted about the probe.

I was thinking wort would syphon backward similar to when I empty my fish tank for cleaning.

In any case if a portion of wort is heated to 85 for to say 5-10 mins, this would be similar to decoction. As long as the grain is not subject to that heat, then tannins would not be released.....of course this is what I imagine.


----------



## dent

It would syphon if the bottom end was allowed to leak air in, but since you've got your pump etc attached that would be undesirable.

The overheating isn't a tannins thing - I'm thinking degradation of beta amylase. But it will probably be fine in the end anyhow.

Sounds like it will be a pretty good and fast system when you get it all going.


----------



## Burt de Ernie

Dent,

I appreciate the feed back as I`m a little noob at all this.

I will post some more pics of the build as it comes along over the next few nights.


----------



## QldKev

I think it can work. I see by having the return open it can siphon back on itself from the outlet, hence draining most the wort from the heat exchanger. The issue here I see is we normally measure the wort existing the heat exchanger for a temperature reading and control. If you are stopping the flow and allowing it to drain back you no longer have anything to measure at that point. Measuring the temperature in the grain bed is bad, as the grain bed will always lag when ramping up temperatures, hence you will be pumping out wort hotter than the set point possibly denaturing a lot of the enzymes. 

I think a better design would either control the heating source (as in a traditional heat exchanger) or build a hot water bypass for the heat exchanger. So the water from the hot water system bypasses the heat exchanger and goes directly back to itself. Therefore the wort is pumped constantly.

I do see an issue with either system for the HWS. As the wort gets close to the set point the HERMS controller will cycle the heating source more frequently. I'm not sure of the HWS will like heating for a couple of sec, then being turned off for a couple, then on again etc. But that may be how they work anyway to be able to get the desired set points.

But by the time you have a solenoid valve to control water flow and a pump for the how water system, it seems easier to add in a heating element into the heat exchanger as per a traditional HERMS and just keep the HWS acting as a HLT for strike water etc.

I would not build the heat exchanger too big with a lot of pipe in it. As small a heat exchanger that can fit 2-3m of copper would be heaps.


----------



## Burt de Ernie

Kev,

since my conversation with Dent last night my thinking has changed.

Based on what you and dent have said, I will flow the wort continually during the mash. The temp control will now operate the flow and return pump instead and the discharge for the Hx will discharge over the thermowell.

Based on this arrangement, the biggest issue I will have is once the flow and return pump stops operating there will a residual amount of heat remaining in the Hx that will be discharged over the mash.

Dependant on the size of the batch and the efficiency of the Hx I may lower the flow and return temp to assist with this issue.


----------



## dent

You're right Kev, I had the syphoning thing ass-about. It will probably screw up the grain bed, and lautering clarity every time it backflows though.


----------



## QldKev

Burt de Ernie said:


> Kev,
> 
> since my conversation with Dent last night my thinking has changed.
> 
> Based on what you and dent have said, I will flow the wort continually during the mash. The temp control will now operate the flow and return pump instead and the discharge for the Hx will discharge over the thermowell.
> 
> Based on this arrangement, the biggest issue I will have is once the flow and return pump stops operating there will a residual amount of heat remaining in the Hx that will be discharged over the mash.
> 
> Dependant on the size of the batch and the efficiency of the Hx I may lower the flow and return temp to assist with this issue.


The residual heat is why I was recommending downsizing the heat exchanger, the smaller the thermal mass the better. If you look at the herm-it coil it's about 3m and stainless which is no where near as good as a conductor as copper, but can handle 2,000w worth of heating. By keeping the copper pipe to 3m max in the heat exchanger, and keeping the overall volume as small as possible you will minimize overshooting. Overshooting is often not that bad as the grain bed always lags behind the HERMS outlet. You may stop the heating process at the set temp and the residual heat will try and pull up the extra temperature, but you will find once you stop heating and with the cooler wort from the bottom of the grain bed being fed into it the heat exchanger will lose the heat rapidly and most likely need to commence heating pretty soon after. I still think it's easier to use an element in the HERMS, is there a reason you don't want to go this way?




dent said:


> You're right Kev, I had the syphoning thing ass-about. It will probably screw up the grain bed, and lautering clarity every time it backflows though.


Good points about the clarity and disturbing the grain bed.


----------



## Burt de Ernie

Kev,

I agree the electric HERMS may be easier and there is always the option of taking that path however, I just like trying different things. Combined with the fact that I was a plumber and am now a hydraulic consultant I like the idea of dusting off the old oxy/acetylene bottles and using the plumbing skills to construct this thing.

So far the materials have cost me nix because I know a lot of plumbers.

Edit...the Hx has cost me nothing......the rig was a little more ;-)


----------



## Beerisyummy

F me. You boys are always coming up with new ideas and nutting them out. Snaps!
I've thought about nabbing one of the instantaneous heaters, but I'm waiting for an LPG jobby.

On a side note, I'm looking at moving the HX one step closer to the Kettle/Mash tun. At this point I've been using the plate chiller as my HX, so it's not a big step to move the HX either into the MT or come up with a jacket style solution.
I'm sure this has all been done before, so throw me a bone and save some time if possible.

If I make a roller jig to roll out my annealed copper into a coil that has a flat inside, and then wrap that around my kettle with some insulation, will this work? The easy way is to drop the heating coil directly into the wort and use it for chilling also. I'm toying with cooling/heating the kettle itself.
I've got nearly a third of a square meter of stainless steel on the kettle to play with during a brew. Not bad odds with the whirlpool running.

PS. Did I mention I don't want many vessels.


----------



## Hugh Jarse

Hi All
Slowly collecting bits and pieces to enter the exciting world of HERMS.
Would like to go with 15l into the FV (small I know but I would like to sample different varieties before racking up some stable house beers) but I have plenty of room for future expansion. 3V setup, at present 50lt SS HLT, 40 lt esky MT and about to take possession of a 32l SS Boil Kettle.

My electrical knowledge ends at the point that I know to unplug the toaster before sticking the knife in to remove the well burnt bread!
My welding and soldering knowledge ends at: thats a welder and thats a soldering iron. 

I am thinking about purchasing the HERMS coil kit from Gryphon and the TempMate controller from CraftBrewer and installing in a PVC tube with a 26cm 2400W heating element. All running through one of the Magnetic Drive pumps from National Home Brew (already purchased) (pump will also double as ice water pump to run through immersion chiller for dropping to pitch temp after tap water has run its course). Would like to be able to run the 2400W element and the pump from a single extension cord from a single power point on the house. Kettle is gas fired (at this stage)

My questions relate to the HERMS coil kit and TempMate controller. I will eventually go down the PID route but will not be for quite a while and am happy to do single infusions and batch sparge.

Any comments on the TempMate controller and how it performs? I see reference to them in this thread but nothing too much in way of performance as seems PIDS are dominating the scene.

Also, any comments on the HERMS coil kit from Gryphon? My only real hesitation is the price, but the more I justify it to myself the closer I get to making the click of the mouse. Always easier to ask for forgiveness than permission…….

Also, welcome any comments on rig etc…..
Cheers
HJ.


----------



## Camo6

I run a Herm-it coil in a 4l vessel with a KK element and get decent ramp times for single batches up to 30l. When I shopped around I found Nev's prices to be quite reasonable considering it was SS. I couldn't coil SS tube that tightly without the chance of kinking it. I'd love his new vessel but have spent too much on this hobby lately so will have to wait a little while.
I run both my HLT and HEX on STC1000's. I use the standard STC sensor in Nev's thermowell and a craftbrewer SS sensor in the HLT. Both maintain very accurate temps. More so than my old BIAB mash temps. I am upgrading to PID's but only because I'm an addict. I reckon your tempmates will be fine for the interim.
Personally, I'd swap your HLT with your kettle. Your HERMS element will reduce your HLT requirements and a bigger kettle will increase your batch size.


----------



## Hugh Jarse

Camo6 said:


> Personally, I'd swap your HLT with your kettle. Your HERMS element will reduce your HLT requirements and a bigger kettle will increase your batch size.


I was thinking this in the long term when I start running full batches for house/lawn mower beer. For the interim it will stay as is due to the HLT having the therm and ball valve already installed and gas fired. 
I think the price for the Herm-It coil is quite good, just have to justify the initial outlay against copper and my limited handy skills with fittings etc (still yet to install connections on the immersion chiller so the hose clamps don't leak, its only been a year now).
Cheers for the input and advice.


----------



## Camo6

No worries HJ. I did all the maths initially too. Yeah I coudl've done it a lot cheaper in copper and brass but as I ordered more and more miscellaneous SS fittings it seemed criminal to add anything but stainless to the system, regardless of which is more efficient. Back then I was running a BIAB system and had the luxury of gradually obtaining parts and burning the receipts as I went.


----------



## Burt de Ernie

QldKev said:


> I think it can work. I see by having the return open it can siphon back on itself from the outlet, hence draining most the wort from the heat exchanger. The issue here I see is we normally measure the wort existing the heat exchanger for a temperature reading and control. If you are stopping the flow and allowing it to drain back you no longer have anything to measure at that point. Measuring the temperature in the grain bed is bad, as the grain bed will always lag when ramping up temperatures, hence you will be pumping out wort hotter than the set point possibly denaturing a lot of the enzymes.
> 
> I think a better design would either control the heating source (as in a traditional heat exchanger) or build a hot water bypass for the heat exchanger. So the water from the hot water system bypasses the heat exchanger and goes directly back to itself. Therefore the wort is pumped constantly.
> 
> I do see an issue with either system for the HWS. As the wort gets close to the set point the HERMS controller will cycle the heating source more frequently. I'm not sure of the HWS will like heating for a couple of sec, then being turned off for a couple, then on again etc. But that may be how they work anyway to be able to get the desired set points.
> 
> But by the time you have a solenoid valve to control water flow and a pump for the how water system, it seems easier to add in a heating element into the heat exchanger as per a traditional HERMS and just keep the HWS acting as a HLT for strike water etc.
> 
> I would not build the heat exchanger too big with a lot of pipe in it. As small a heat exchanger that can fit 2-3m of copper would be heaps.


Ok,

Taking on board the advice from Kev above I have reworked my system.

I now have a HERMS system with a total volume of 1.9 litres and 4 metres of coil. Basically the wort will circulate through the center of the Rinnai flow and return pipework.

One of the good things about this system is after the boil I use the same HERMS coil as the chill just by turning the heater off and opening up a discharge valve.

I have also converted a new mash tun that draws off the base of the mash which will increase mash efficiency. One of the things I was most stoked about was the $5.00 stainless false bottom I got from woolies.

The only thing I am not sure of yet is the best position for the probe. Like Kev said the pump may not like the probe being on the return line into the keg as per a regular HERMs setup. Based on this I have installed 3 thermowells into the system two of which are home made. 1 on the wort return, another on the wort flow line and the last one straight into the mash tun. Time will tell.

Below are 2 you tube links demonstrating the system.





Happy to hear all feedback good and bad!


----------



## TheWiggman

Your post Burt shows that while the concept of HERMS is [relatively] simple, there are so many different ways the same problem can be attacked. You've got an awesome setup and good on you for detailing it and doing something completely different (though most of us don't have mates willing to part with a gas how water heater  ).
I'm a huge fan of the HERMS. I'll bet it'll work a treat.

Only query is how do you intend to maintain the temp of the hot water? My concerns reflect QldKev's - all's good while ramping up, but once the ideal temp's hit the hot water would need to turn off. If the water recirculated I can see a gas water system having issues with hot water being fed into it. Though I'm not sure of the mechanics inside them.

Having a gas HWS at home, and having worked with industrial coolers, I reckon the go would be to have a separate insulated holding tank which stores the hot water. Bear with me...

Water is pumped
from the tank
through the hot water system
into the HERMS (hottest, say set at 75°C on the HWS)

[*]Water comes out of the HERMS (where it's cooled by the wort) into the tank 
[*]An automated ball/solenoid valve is installed AFTER the HERMS before returning to tank
When you have reached control temp (i.e. 67°C) the ball/solenoid valve will stop flow and the hot water system will do its shutdown thing when it detects low flow. Once the temp gets below your hysteresis setpoint, the valve will open up and the heater will go back to heating the water. The pump would need to run full time so a centrifugal pump is required. A mag drive or similar would be ideal. There are ways to address the dead-heading issue.

Oh, and :beerbang:


----------



## Burt de Ernie

TheWiggman said:


> Your post Burt shows that while the concept of HERMS is [relatively] simple, there are so many different ways the same problem can be attacked. You've got an awesome setup and good on you for detailing it and doing something completely different (though most of us don't have mates willing to part with a gas how water heater  ).
> I'm a huge fan of the HERMS. I'll bet it'll work a treat.
> 
> Only query is how do you intend to maintain the temp of the hot water? My concerns reflect QldKev's - all's good while ramping up, but once the ideal temp's hit the hot water would need to turn off. If the water recirculated I can see a gas water system having issues with hot water being fed into it. Though I'm not sure of the mechanics inside them.
> 
> Having a gas HWS at home, and having worked with industrial coolers, I reckon the go would be to have a separate insulated holding tank which stores the hot water. Bear with me...
> 
> Water is pumped
> from the tank
> through the hot water system
> into the HERMS (hottest, say set at 75°C on the HWS)
> 
> [*]Water comes out of the HERMS (where it's cooled by the wort) into the tank
> [*]An automated ball/solenoid valve is installed AFTER the HERMS before returning to tank
> When you have reached control temp (i.e. 67°C) the ball/solenoid valve will stop flow and the hot water system will do its shutdown thing when it detects low flow. Once the temp gets below your hysteresis setpoint, the valve will open up and the heater will go back to heating the water. The pump would need to run full time so a centrifugal pump is required. A mag drive or similar would be ideal. There are ways to address the dead-heading issue.
> 
> Oh, and :beerbang:


Thanks Wiggleman!

Your concept is exactly how the Rinnai operates.

There are thermostatic controls built in to every Rinnai. EG. my commercial Rinnai can be set to either 55, 60, 65, 75 and 85 degrees. Once the set temperature is hit in the hot water loop, the Rinnai throttles the gas.

The STC will control the flow and return pump. EG when wort temp drops the circulating pump operates and moves the cooler water through the Rinnai to heat it again.


----------



## Burt de Ernie

Burt de Ernie said:


> Ok,
> 
> Taking on board the advice from Kev above I have reworked my system.
> 
> I now have a HERMS system with a total volume of 1.9 litres and 4 metres of coil. Basically the wort will circulate through the center of the Rinnai flow and return pipework.
> 
> One of the good things about this system is after the boil I use the same HERMS coil as the chill just by turning the heater off and opening up a discharge valve.
> 
> I have also converted a new mash tun that draws off the base of the mash which will increase mash efficiency. One of the things I was most stoked about was the $5.00 stainless false bottom I got from woolies.
> 
> The only thing I am not sure of yet is the best position for the probe. Like Kev said the pump may not like the probe being on the return line into the keg as per a regular HERMs setup. Based on this I have installed 3 thermowells into the system two of which are home made. 1 on the wort return, another on the wort flow line and the last one straight into the mash tun. Time will tell.
> 
> Below are 2 you tube links demonstrating the system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Happy to hear all feedback good and bad!



OK, I`m looking for honest feedback good or bad from others using Herms.

So I ran a my first test today to see how well the system would ramp. I started with 40 litres of 17.5 degree water and set the Herms to 75 degrees.

Below is the test result. Anyone care to comment??


----------



## dent

Seems to level off pretty early. Your setpoint is 75 degrees or that is just the HX temperature? Doesn't look like it will ever get there if it is the former.


----------



## Burt de Ernie

Dent,

The test started 17.5 degrees to with an end goal of 67. 

The wort coil runs through the center of Rinnai flow and return loop which in this case was set at 75 degrees.

There is always the option to increase the temp in the flow and return loop.


----------



## dent

Sure, that looks great then.


----------



## QldKev

I like the idea of using a liebig condenser for the heat exchanger, as you mentioned it doubles as a chiller. I even thought about a shotgun style condenser/heat exchanger would work well. 

It would be interesting to see how the temperature stabilizes once it hits the target temperature.


----------



## Burt de Ernie

I must admit that the Rinnai ran constant because of the amount of heat rejection occurring up until around the 63 degree mark. Because the heat rejection was so low the heater would shut down and fire up every degree above 63.


----------



## Burt de Ernie

QldKev said:


> I like the idea of using a liebig condenser for the heat exchanger, as you mentioned it doubles as a chiller. I even thought about a shotgun style condenser/heat exchanger would work well.
> 
> It would be interesting to see how the temperature stabilizes once it hits the target temperature.


Kev,

This will be tomorrows test which definitely the more relevant test. The other thing I haven't played with yet is the probe positioning.


----------



## QldKev

I think the probe mount you have on the return line is in a pretty good position. I would prefer it as soon as it exits the heat exchanger. Also get all those lines insulated up.


----------



## Burt de Ernie

Burt de Ernie said:


> OK, I`m looking for honest feedback good or bad from others using Herms.
> 
> So I ran a my first test today to see how well the system would ramp. I started with 40 litres of 17.5 degree water and set the Herms to 75 degrees.
> 
> Below is the test result. Anyone care to comment??



OK,

Have now updated the system curve and added 20 minutes of maintaining 67 degrees.

In short the maintenance section of the curve shows that at a set point of 67 C the temperature ranged from a low point of 66.7 (minimum STC 1000 differential) to 67.4 (0.4 degree overshoot). See below.

Kev....FYI this test was with the probe in the return line which didn't seem to affect the pumps or heater much at all.


----------



## mb-squared

50 degrees in ~50minutes, and holding nice and stable at the target temp. looks to me like you've got it nailed.


----------



## Burt de Ernie

mb-squared said:


> 50 degrees in ~50minutes, and holding nice and stable at the target temp. looks to me like you've got it nailed.


50 degrees in 34 minutes..;-)

The challenge of this project has been to try equal the performance of an electric HERMS (not sure how close I am yet). What I have come to realise during this process, is that anyone with standard household gas instantaneous hot water system could incorporate this style of HERMS into a brewery or.....the brewery into your household... The process now is to hone and engineer the system down to a minimum.

I guess what I am not sure of is the 0.4 degree over shoot.

Currently there is approximately 4 meters of coil in a 1.9 litre Herms HEX. The 1.9 litres is directly connected to the overshoot. 

Without too much trouble I have the opportunity to halve the size of the HEX and coil down to approximately 2 meters. this means a 0.95 litre HERMS which would presumably result in reducing the over shoot to 0.2 degrees.

Or....am I being too pedantic?


----------



## mb-squared

.4 degrees? RDWHAHB. IMO


----------



## QldKev

Burt de Ernie said:


> 50 degrees in 34 minutes..;-)
> 
> The challenge of this project has been to try equal the performance of an electric HERMS (not sure how close I am yet). What I have come to realise during this process, is that anyone with standard household gas instantaneous hot water system could incorporate this style of HERMS into a brewery or.....the brewery into your household... The process now is to hone and engineer the system down to a minimum.
> 
> I guess what I am not sure of is the 0.4 degree over shoot.
> 
> Currently there is approximately 4 meters of coil in a 1.9 litre Herms HEX. The 1.9 litres is directly connected to the overshoot.
> 
> Without too much trouble I have the opportunity to halve the size of the HEX and coil down to approximately 2 meters. this means a 0.95 litre HERMS which would presumably result in reducing the over shoot to 0.2 degrees.
> 
> Or....am I being too pedantic?



1c per 1min is kind of the norm, so you have got good numbers for the ramp rate. How much thermal mass was that compared to a full run?
An overshoot of 0.4c is great.

Both numbers look good to me


----------



## Burt de Ernie

QldKev said:


> 1c per 1min is kind of the norm, so you have got good numbers for the ramp rate. How much thermal mass was that compared to a full run?
> An overshoot of 0.4c is great.
> 
> Both numbers look good to me


So on both tests the mash tun had 40 litres of water which is probably more thermal mass than a 10 gallon batch.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the overshoot on brew day.

Oh and Kev....your information has been instrumental in me getting this this right so thank you.


----------



## RustyT

Hi guys,

I am trying to design my new brew stand and HERMS System, I have drawn up a rough system setup. Just want to confirm I am on the right track.


----------



## mb-squared

looks right to me. good luck!


----------



## QldKev

Why do you need 2 pumps for that design, and why have the kettle on another level if you have a pump?


----------



## TheWiggman

Agreed, 2nd pump (if required) should recirculate HLT water only.

Having the STC-1000 control the HLT might require some thinking. I can see overshoot being a potential issue. By the time the mash liquor has reached your setpoint +0.3°C* the urn water will be a fair bit hotter. The temp mash will continue to rise. Then the opposite will occur at your setpoint - 0.3°C.
Sub STC for a PID unit and problem can be solved.

* assumes your STC-1000 is like mine where the minimum hysterisis is 0.3°C


----------



## QldKev

I personally don't like the HERMS coil in the HLT, get it in the smallest water bath you can fit it in.


----------



## RustyT

QldKev said:


> Why do you need 2 pumps for that design, and why have the kettle on another level if you have a pump?


Your right I could get away with the one pump, but I thought it would simplfy the brew day not having to swap hoses around for filling the mash tun and sparging.

Boil kettle will be gas fired as I already have the burner and gas bottle and was thinking it would better to have it on a seperate level.


----------



## QldKev

I like the idea of 1 level as it keeps every vessel at a nice height. Here's how mine is plumbed for 1 pump to all vessels. You only need to swap hoses if you want to underlet.


----------



## TheWiggman

Struth Kev where'd you buy that HERMS? Looks like it was bent up in a vice.


----------



## sponge

Two pumps gives a bit of flexibility with fly sparging as well.


----------



## QldKev

sponge said:


> Two pumps gives a bit of flexibility with fly sparging as well.


Good point, you would need either your HLT on a higher level or a second pump if you are a fly sparger.


----------



## RustyT

I will be fly sparging, but I can gravity feed into the kettle if I stay with an 2 tier system. Can you still batch sparge with a herms setup or would it just defeat the porpose?


----------



## QldKev

I'm running a HERMS and could not be bothered fly sparging. I still get 85% pre-boil eff with batch sparging and don't want any higher. But it's a personal preference which sparge method you choose.


----------



## RustyT

Do you recirculate the batch sparge through the herms to resettle the grain bed?


----------



## QldKev

yep, when I add the sparge water I give it a good stir and recirculate it for 5-10 minutes until it clarifies and temps are nice and stable.


----------



## RustyT

Sweet thought that may have been the case.


----------



## Howlingdog

I'm not to sure where to put this question but I suppose this thread is closer to the point. I've noticed in European forums - not UK, that most Homebrew systems shown use a stirred mash tun. Since I'm assuming that most of their beers are pilsener/lager and involved decoctions or multiple step mashes this maybe the reason. HERMS/RIMS would eliminate the use of a stirred mash tun but would it be an advantage or a complication?

HD


----------



## TheWiggman

I fly sparge myself because in my case it's simpler. I've only got 1 pump and drain into the kettle at different levels. 
2 pumps have the advantage of circulating the HLT, which in your case would be a good idea with that HERMS design. And as above you'll need the 2nd pump for a single tier shebang.


----------



## TheWiggman

HowlingDog said:


> I'm not to sure where to put this question but I suppose this thread is closer to the point. I've noticed in European forums - not UK, that most Homebrew systems shown use a stirred mash tun. Since I'm assuming that most of their beers are pilsener/lager and involved decoctions or multiple step mashes this maybe the reason. HERMS/RIMS would eliminate the use of a stirred mash tun but would it be an advantage or a complication?
> 
> HD


Minor increase in efficiency I think. And bragging rights. I think it's unnecessarily complicated personally but if you want to pimp your rig it's the next step.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

HowlingDog said:


> I'm not to sure where to put this question but I suppose this thread is closer to the point. I've noticed in European forums - not UK, that most Homebrew systems shown use a stirred mash tun. Since I'm assuming that most of their beers are pilsener/lager and involved decoctions or multiple step mashes this maybe the reason. HERMS/RIMS would eliminate the use of a stirred mash tun but would it be an advantage or a complication?
> 
> HD


HERM-IT is big in Norway, makes sense as they need to keep there mash warm and you dont need to stir.
Nev


----------



## mb-squared

QldKev said:


> I personally don't like the HERMS coil in the HLT, get it in the smallest water bath you can fit it in.


a herms coil in the HLT can double as an immersion chiller. it's the most economical way to go because it doesn't require a 4th vessel and it can be used to chill your wort. putting your HERMS in a 4th vessel is no where near as economical from this view.


----------



## TheWiggman

I challenge the economy argument mb-squared. I'm plugging Nev again but I did the HERMS-in-the-HLT and later switched to the HERM-IT coil. Item by item, they ended up costing almost the same amount. If I was clever about it I could easily turn the coil into a chiller but I've gone the no-chill path instead for a couple of reasons. 
I'd never go back.


----------



## QldKev

Whilst I do brew beer to save some money, I brew beer to make great beer and not to make the cheapest system. I don't like the thermal mass of the HLT for ramping and overshooting so to me setting up a dedicated HERMS is 100% worthwhile. If I built mine again I would like to try either a liebig or shotgun condenser style for the heat exchanger. Then I could use a small pump to pump hot water into it and shut the pump down once I hit my set point.


----------



## Burt de Ernie

QldKev said:


> Whilst I do brew beer to save some money, I brew beer to make great beer and not to make the cheapest system. I don't like the thermal mass of the HLT for ramping and overshooting so to me setting up a dedicated HERMS is 100% worthwhile. If I built mine again I would like to try either a liebig or shotgun condenser style for the heat exchanger. Then I could use a small pump to pump hot water into it and shut the pump down once I hit my set point.


Kev,

This is exactly how my Rinnai system works!


----------



## Beerisyummy

Hi guys,

I managed to get my new heat exchanger made up this week and have a couple of questions for those that have been doing HX for a while.
Firstly, I ended up making it to fit my kettle/mash tun and run a small HLT with around 1L of liquid to power the whole show. My first wet run with water was good.

Now, my first question relates to mounting the PID probe. The old system just tapped into the return line for readings and I was happy with the results. This time I'm not sure if I can just tap into the line exiting the coil, or if I'll need to use a probe in the bottom of the kettle/mash tun. Anyone have advice on this?

Secondly, can I use glycol in the heat exchanger? Food grade of course.
I ask because I managed to get 40L up to 98c with the rig and the only thing stopping the kettle boiling was the HLT maxing out at 100c+/-. It's not that I will do it as a standard practice, but I'd like to know if it would work before I go chasing some free glycol.

BIY.


----------



## Burt de Ernie

Beerisyummy said:


> Secondly, can I use glycol in the heat exchanger? Food grade of course.
> I ask because I managed to get 40L up to 98c with the rig and the only thing stopping the kettle boiling was the HLT maxing out at 100c+/-. It's not that I will do it as a standard practice, but I'd like to know if it would work before I go chasing some free glycol.


You can use glycol which would mean you have a closed system but my question is what are you using for sparging?....do you have a HLT as well?


----------



## Beerisyummy

No HLT BdE. I just drain the kettle/MT and add more water before cranking up the power again.
Mash efficiency on BS2 is anywhere between 75 to +100%, depending on the grain bill and mash schedule. If anything, I'm trying to dial back the efficiency so sparging isn't a big concern.
I'm doing a 70/30 Wheat/Pils mash tomorrow, so I guess I'll just suck it and see. At least as soon as the bastard starter kicks off. This country air gets pretty cold at night.

Is there another way to bring the boiling point of your HX heating fluid up without making it too corrosive, or adding pressure? I figure 110c would get me boiling in the kettle.

Ahhh! the endless tinkering.....

Edit: I'll try and get some photos if I brew tomorrow.


----------



## Burt de Ernie

Id like to see the pics


----------



## booargy

Beerisyummy said:


> No HLT BdE. I just drain the kettle/MT and add more water before cranking up the power again.
> Mash efficiency on BS2 is anywhere between 75 to +100%, depending on the grain bill and mash schedule. If anything, I'm trying to dial back the efficiency so sparging isn't a big concern.
> I'm doing a 70/30 Wheat/Pils mash tomorrow, so I guess I'll just suck it and see. At least as soon as the bastard starter kicks off. This country air gets pretty cold at night.
> 
> Is there another way to bring the boiling point of your HX heating fluid up without making it too corrosive, or adding pressure? I figure 110c would get me boiling in the kettle.
> 
> Ahhh! the endless tinkering.....
> 
> Edit: I'll try and get some photos if I brew tomorrow.


vegetable oil.


----------



## dent

That is a terrible idea. Let's not put a flammable substance with a shitty heat transfer ability on a heating element. All you need is your mash to stick and your shed burns down.


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## Beerisyummy

Yep. I might pass on sticking oil in with my cheap kettle element. It's dodgy enough as it is.
Could I just run steam through the HX? Much harder to control I guess.


----------



## drifting79

water is sufficient for heat exhange purposes and its the cleanest alternative , once youve done your brew just drain HX so the elementdoesnt stay emersed !
steer clear of using oils!!


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Beerisyummy said:


> Yep. I might pass on sticking oil in with my cheap kettle element. It's dodgy enough as it is.
> Could I just run steam through the HX? Much harder to control I guess.


Dont over complicate a proven simple process, we have done that in the past so you dont have too !


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## TheWiggman

I'm on the phone so can't find your old post, but what's your system arrangement? What are you trying to do? I assume you're pumping hot water into a coil and using the coil to heat your vessel. In this case you won't win unless you go the pressurised option or alternative fluids. There are some sciencey reasons why. 
Oil is certainly feasible but you have to be careful how you heat it. I think it's a bold path you're going down as it won't be a simple one.


----------



## Beerisyummy

Don't you just hate trying to use a smartphone sometimes. 



cooperville said:


> water is sufficient for heat exhange purposes and its the cleanest alternative , once youve done your brew just drain HX so the elementdoesnt stay emersed !
> steer clear of using oils!!


No problems there. I've been using water to heat my mash for several months now and have been happy so far. The question about glycol came about due to my latest arrangement getting the kettle/MT just below boiling without too much trouble. Of course, I couldn't help but wonder if I could easily push it that little bit farther and boil with it.



Online Brewing Supplies said:


> Dont over complicate a proven simple process, we have done that in the past so you dont have too !


Coming from the man who sells all the complex looking brewery bling! Shame on you. :lol:
After a bit of reading on steam process heating I can definitely see why this method isn't commonly used in homebrew scenarios. Point taken.



TheWiggman said:


> I'm on the phone so can't find your old post, but what's your system arrangement? What are you trying to do? I assume you're pumping hot water into a coil and using the coil to heat your vessel. In this case you won't win unless you go the pressurised option or alternative fluids. There are some sciencey reasons why.
> Oil is certainly feasible but you have to be careful how you heat it. I think it's a bold path you're going down as it won't be a simple one.


The arrangement started as some copper crammed into a small pot with an element, then I started using the plate chiller hooked up to a LBP for heating water supply and now I've got around 15m of copper coiled around inside the kettle/MT. I figured I'd try using the coil for heating and cooling. So far it seems to do a good job of both.
The kettle/MT runs one of those green pumps with two outlets. One loops back into the kettle/MT and creates a constant whirlpool effect, while the other is used to recirculate through the mash or fill the FV.
Once I've removed the mash part from the kettle I normally turn on the induction plate to boil the wort. I hit 98c yesterday without the induction plate so I figured it was worth investigating a way to boil with the coil. No biggy if it's too difficult.

I'm still undecided about where to get the best temperature reading for the PID? The coil outlet and the wort looked to be within 1c during ramping, although it's hard to say what will happen during an actual brew.

Cheers guys.

Edit: I just found this which is similar to what I'm playing with. http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/78352-reverse-herms/ Now to have a read.


----------



## TheWiggman

For all intents and purposes, I think it will be too difficult.

The boiling point of fluids is determined by pressure. Where I am, water boils at 97°C. Once it turns into a gas it bubbles up and then condenses in the air and then will cool very quickly, causing a pocket of air with very high humidity. So essentially, if you are heating water to boiling point then once it boils the liquid state won't exceed your boil temp under atmospheric conditions. Anything hotter becomes a gas and evaporates.
Assuming you have actual boiling water going through the pipe, the stuff that it touches won't exceed the temp of the pipe unless the ambient air is higher than the water boiling point. The liquid in your MLT/kettle will take the heat energy away from the tube, then immediately pass it on to the surrounding air. Hence, the kettle liquid will always be a lower temp than the coil liquid.

So if the hottest you can get in the coil is boiling, and the kettle is less than this, the kettle will never boil without heat from somewhere else.

To address this you can increase the pressure of the water inside the coil to above atmopsheric. This will increase the boiling point, and hence you can make the water hotter than the boiling point at atmospheric pressure. This will then allow you to acheive what you want to do.

This was the 'sciencey' stuff I was referring to.

You could do that, of you could place a gas burner below the kettle and light it with a match. Or (my preference) - insert electric element in liquid, plug into wall, turn on.


----------



## Beerisyummy

"Sciency stuff". I like that.

I'm fine with science behind the idea. Boiling points and such.

I'm now stuck with only a phone, but I'll report back soon on how she goes during a brew.


----------



## Beerisyummy

Just to report back from my experiment.
I tested using a different solution in the boiler to make the kettle boil and I tested the positioning of the temperature probe on my set up. The results were that the coil will happily boil the kettle and the probe worked a treat in the same body of liquid as the heater/ chiller coil.
I decided not to push things too far this first go as I'm not sure how the pump will go with the higher temperatures involved.

There is more info on this in the thread I linked a few posts back. No point in posting the same thing twice.

:beer:


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Sorry but KISS.
Nice to see outside the box thinking and tinkering. 
Nev


----------



## Fat Bastard

Sorry to butt in on all the innovation goin' on around here, but I want to ask some really base questions about grain crush size and recirculation speed.

Did the second brew on the new rig today, and was less than pleased with some of the antics that went on. On the commissioning brew, I had a slight problem with the grain bed lifting when I changed from recirculate to lauter/sparge settings. When the vacuum momentarily stopped, the grain bed sprang up in the tun and released a lot of what appeared to be trapped air. I occasionally had this problem on the old rig, and it was not a major drama, exceptfor the very small amout of bits of grain that ended up in the kettle.

So, thinking about the issue, i came to the conclusion it was connected to my rather coarse crush of 1.6mm, as reccomended by mashmaster. Righto then. I'll pull the rollers in a bit to 1.2mm and crush it a bit finer and see what happens.

Well, what happens is that you get a grain bed set like concrete and a stalled pump. This occurred during ramp from 52 to 62 and in the ramp to 68. I thought I really stuffed it when the breaker tripped and the HLT/Boil side of my rig shut down, but that turned out to be an amateur gardener cutting through the cord of the electric hedge trimmer, with the electric hedge trimmer. Oh how we larfed!

Anyway, with power restored, and a couple of big handfulls of rice hulls in the mash, the problem went away, got beautiful clear wort and big fvck off channels during the lauter & fly sparge. Efficiency was well down too, which I'll put down to the channeling. I've never had channelling in my rig prior to adjusting the grain crush.

I have often heard tell of people crushing to "The Thickess of a Credit Card" which by my verniers and credit card is 0.9mm.

How the hell are these people not getting stuck mashes? Admittedly I don't have the best control of my recirc pump at the moment, but if you cant recirc faster than a Little Brown Pump, why bother spending the dosh on a very nice looking and superb quality Ultimiser pump from a well known site sponsor and contributor and building a special vessel with a custom made element to house one of the same bloke's very nice HERMS coils?

So, how fast do you recirc. and how fine do you crush? In the short term, I'll open the gap out to 1.4 and trial it again with a bag of rice hulls handy, but I'd still be interested in hearing what you're all doing.

Cheers!

FB


----------



## Yob

You only have a LBP fats?

I've upgraded to an 809 but start it off half reduced on the outlet of the pump, when at 63 I open her up, pretty big grist too, no sign of sticking, manifold issues perhaps?


----------



## mb-squared

I run my pump (Chugger) wide open during the whole mash. I just use the factory settings on my Barley Crusher. Never heard of the whole grain bed lifting up. Sounds odd to me.


----------



## Fat Bastard

Nah, running an Ultimiser for mash recirc. 

Could run the LBP flat stick without issue at a 1.6 crush no worries at all. 

One of the issues with the new rig is that I made the assumption that the speed control would actually work, so I have to throttle it with the three way, which isn't ideal, but works after a fashion. 

Problem is, I throttle it back to the same speed as the LBP, which kind of defeats the purpose!

False bottom is the larger diameter Beer Belly one, which served me well in the LBP days. Never seen channelling with it previously.


----------



## Fat Bastard

Some more detail of the grain bed lifting: when crushed at 1.6 with the LBP it would quote often release trapped air during mash out and especially when starting the transfer to the kettle. This would upset the bed and release grain particles to the kettle.

With the big pump, the whole bloody thing lifted to the top of the mash liquor as a single unified mass. No channelling, and only some tiny bits of grain got to the kettle. It sank as the level dropped when the fly sparge stopped and behaved normally.

At the 1.2 crush it stayed put, but channelled like a bastard and was very solid, and I suspect this is the reason for the channels.


----------



## dent

Fat Bastard said:


> Nah, running an Ultimiser for mash recirc.


I have that same pump. I think you are asking a lot to be running that thing flat out, especially at the start of your mashing regime. I don't think there is much benefit of recirculating much faster than the brown pump goes, unless you have some kind of three phase heat exchanger or something.


----------



## Burt de Ernie

dent said:


> I have that same pump. I think you are asking a lot to be running that thing flat out, especially at the start of your mashing regime. I don't think there is much benefit of recirculating much faster than the brown pump goes, unless you have some kind of three phase heat exchanger or something.


Wait...its a single speed single stage pump if I am not mistaken. If that is the case then running the pump flat out is far better for in terms of life expectancy over running a pump with a more restricted flow purely because of the reduced load on the pump.


----------



## dent

Life expectancy measured how? I'd agree that the pressure and probably load on the motor will be increased if the output is restricted, but that is what the pump is rated for. 

Regardless of the above, almost all the pump failures I've seen are due to the mechanical seal leaking, which is usually a result of running dry, which is just what will happen if you're trying to run too high a flow, and get yourself a nicely stuck mash.


----------



## Beerisyummy

Burt de Ernie said:


> Wait...its a single speed single stage pump if I am not mistaken. If that is the case then running the pump flat out is far better for in terms of life expectancy over running a pump with a more restricted flow purely because of the reduced load on the pump.


If it's a centrifugal type pump any restriction will reduce the load on the motor. The speed of rotation increases and power consumption goes down until you get cavitation.
Some restriction is a good thing. IME the sweet spot is usually between 60- 90% of rated flow.

FB,
I'm not sure what my mill gap is exactly, but I have opened it right up to the point where it just pops the husk open. This gap gets changed slightly sometimes for different grain types. After trying several different gap settings I've found this to be the best gap setting for flow and efficiency.
It looks something like this most of the time. (3:2 Wheatils in this shot).



Your mash seam gas problem sounds pretty interesting. I'm guessing there must be a pocket of air getting trapped under the false bottom when you fill the MT.
Do you add water to your grist, or the other way around?


----------



## Camo6

FB I'm keen to see if you can solve this as it's been happening to me occassionally with my system. While getting ready to sparge I'll get a few bubbles rise through the mash which loosens it and it then swells as I fly sparge. This makes it difficult to maintain enough water on top of the mash and I seem to get more crud into the kettle.
I suspect on mine it's a pocket of air which is forced back through the mash by the gravity of the herms coil contents or a qd sucking in air. Maybe it's to do with the order I close and open taps or switch off pumps. It doesn't happen all the time but I haven't changed my mill crush in that whole time and use minimal adjuncts.
Fwiw I think my crush was set to about 1.1mm. I use a kaixin pump and recirc the mash slowly for a minute or so then run flatout for the entire mash. Only stuck sparge was from a 20% rye grist.


----------



## TheWiggman

Fat Bastard, if air is coming out it must be trapped in a fitting somewhere. Can you run the flow backwards? Do this prior to starting your mash and this might blow out any air that could piss you off later.
Alternatively, you could try one thing I do once the system is flowing and ready for heating.

Turn off recirc pump
Put your lips around the mash return line
Blow hard
Obviously don't blow air all the way back to the MLT.
I find this sometimes gets air pockets out of the tee fitting in the MLT. Otherwise, why don't you just change from recirculate to lauter/sparge prior to adding your grain?


----------



## mb-squared

FB, I've gone back over your brew rig thread but didn't notice anything about your false bottom. What are you using there? Does it cover most of the bottom of your MT? The channelling that you've mentioned suggests that something is amiss with your false bottom. Then as for the grain bed springing up, I just find this very hard to believe, but perhaps it is related to the false bottom problem. First, are you sure that it isn't just the hulls floating to the top? If it is the whole grain bed, and you don't notice any air bubbles in your recirc lines during the mash, then that suggests you do have a trapped air pocket in there somewhere that the recirculating wort is bypassing during the mash -- again, only possible IMO with a very faulty false bottom. 

I don't know anything about fluid dynamics, but I notice that your MT is about as wide as it is tall. I hope this isn't the source of your problem, but I notice that the pots you can buy for this purpose (e.g. blichman or spike brewing) are taller than they are wide. Perhaps that is important? Sorry can't be of more help! I hope you're able to get it sorted.


----------



## booargy

are you sure it is air and not a surge of liquid as the vacuum caused by the pump is released? also try cutting the grain bed without disturbing the base using a long knife before sparge.


----------



## Beerisyummy

How much of a vacuum do you guys get? I always thought you were meant to balance the flow so it didn't compact the grain bed.
Centrifuge pumps are also meant to push fluids, not pull. Too much of a vacuum and they start making that crackling sound due to cavitation.

Back to the air pocket, I've noticed that my grain tends to expel trapped air bubbles for several minutes. Bear in mind that the recirculation is flowing up through the mash at that stage ( these days, at least). Prior to this I can remember there always being a tiny amount of air trapped under the false bottom.
One can easily imagine how all those tiny bubbles would collect under a large domed false bottom, especially if a pump was really sucking on an inlet at the bottom of a mash tun. Letting the mash stand for a few minutes before recirculation would probably help.


----------



## TheWiggman

I've heard conflicting advice beerisyummy and I've heard warnings against compacting the grain bed (but mainly to avoid stuck mash). Mb^2 on the other hand goes flat stick with his recirc flow and gets excellent results with efficiency. Until I see some tests I'm unconvinced either way 
I've found the vacuum of those pumps to be pretty high. I've only used the kiaxin and LBP but both seemed to pull a fair bit with a stuck mash. .


----------



## QldKev

From what I've always been told and what I do, firstly set the bed, then run the pump as fast as you can without getting a stuck mash. Flow means minimal lags in temperature within the mash bed.


----------



## Burt de Ernie

I don't get it.....what is the point of restricting flow?


----------



## mb-squared

Yep, I dough in, stir, then start the recirc with the valve open just a crack for a few minutes to set the bed, then slowly open it up until it's going wide open. never had a stuck mash yet.


----------



## dent

QldKev said:


> From what I've always been told and what I do, firstly set the bed, then run the pump as fast as you can without getting a stuck mash.


That's exactly it. Back in the days of the lame-o March pump, flat out was about right. Nowadays we have pumps that flow like the garden hose flat out.


----------



## Fat Bastard

Beerisyummy said:


> If it's a centrifugal type pump any restriction will reduce the load on the motor. The speed of rotation increases and power consumption goes down until you get cavitation.
> Some restriction is a good thing. IME the sweet spot is usually between 60- 90% of rated flow.
> 
> FB,
> I'm not sure what my mill gap is exactly, but I have opened it right up to the point where it just pops the husk open. This gap gets changed slightly sometimes for different grain types. After trying several different gap settings I've found this to be the best gap setting for flow and efficiency.
> It looks something like this most of the time. (3:2 Wheatils in this shot).
> 
> 
> 
> P5165226.JPG
> Your mash seam gas problem sounds pretty interesting. I'm guessing there must be a pocket of air getting trapped under the false bottom when you fill the MT.
> Do you add water to your grist, or the other way around?


 Water goes into the grist. I don't underlet as I tried it a few times before everything was hard plumbed and it didn't change things. I do stir like buggery once full volume is achieved and don't recirc during the 52 degree rest.



Camo6 said:


> FB I'm keen to see if you can solve this as it's been happening to me occassionally with my system. While getting ready to sparge I'll get a few bubbles rise through the mash which loosens it and it then swells as I fly sparge. This makes it difficult to maintain enough water on top of the mash and I seem to get more crud into the kettle.
> I suspect on mine it's a pocket of air which is forced back through the mash by the gravity of the herms coil contents or a qd sucking in air. Maybe it's to do with the order I close and open taps or switch off pumps. It doesn't happen all the time but I haven't changed my mill crush in that whole time and use minimal adjuncts.
> Fwiw I think my crush was set to about 1.1mm. I use a kaixin pump and recirc the mash slowly for a minute or so then run flatout for the entire mash. Only stuck sparge was from a 20% rye grist.


This sounds exactly like what I was getting with the LBP. Sometimes it was happening with the pump still running as the temp approaced mash out, although it hasn't happened like that with the big pump. I guess it's pulling too much vacuum to let the air rise.



TheWiggman said:


> Fat Bastard, if air is coming out it must be trapped in a fitting somewhere. Can you run the flow backwards? Do this prior to starting your mash and this might blow out any air that could piss you off later.
> Alternatively, you could try one thing I do once the system is flowing and ready for heating.
> 
> Turn off recirc pump
> Put your lips around the mash return line
> Blow hard
> Obviously don't blow air all the way back to the MLT.
> I find this sometimes gets air pockets out of the tee fitting in the MLT. Otherwise, why don't you just change from recirculate to lauter/sparge prior to adding your grain?


Don't think there is any air trapped in the system. The outlet of the MLT drops about a foot to the pump. The wort return bubbles like buggery when you open the tap! Stranger things have happened though, and this is probably something to check out.


mb-squared said:


> FB, I've gone back over your brew rig thread but didn't notice anything about your false bottom. What are you using there? Does it cover most of the bottom of your MT? The channelling that you've mentioned suggests that something is amiss with your false bottom. Then as for the grain bed springing up, I just find this very hard to believe, but perhaps it is related to the false bottom problem. First, are you sure that it isn't just the hulls floating to the top? If it is the whole grain bed, and you don't notice any air bubbles in your recirc lines during the mash, then that suggests you do have a trapped air pocket in there somewhere that the recirculating wort is bypassing during the mash -- again, only possible IMO with a very faulty false bottom.
> 
> I don't know anything about fluid dynamics, but I notice that your MT is about as wide as it is tall. I hope this isn't the source of your problem, but I notice that the pots you can buy for this purpose (e.g. blichman or spike brewing) are taller than they are wide. Perhaps that is important? Sorry can't be of more help! I hope you're able to get it sorted.


 The FB is a domed circular thing from Beer Belly which is about an inch away from the wall of the pot. I've never had channelling with it previously, nor on the only other time I used the big pump a couple of weeks ago. The only things that have changed is the bigger pump and the finer crush. The grain bed springing up as a unified mass happened when I didn't use rice hulls, which are something I don't like using unless absolutely necessary.



booargy said:


> are you sure it is air and not a surge of liquid as the vacuum caused by the pump is released? also try cutting the grain bed without disturbing the base using a long knife before sparge.


Probably a combination of the two. Trapped air plus surge = lifting mash.



Beerisyummy said:


> How much of a vacuum do you guys get? I always thought you were meant to balance the flow so it didn't compact the grain bed.
> Centrifuge pumps are also meant to push fluids, not pull. Too much of a vacuum and they start making that crackling sound due to cavitation.
> 
> Back to the air pocket, I've noticed that my grain tends to expel trapped air bubbles for several minutes. Bear in mind that the recirculation is flowing up through the mash at that stage ( these days, at least). Prior to this I can remember there always being a tiny amount of air trapped under the false bottom.
> One can easily imagine how all those tiny bubbles would collect under a large domed false bottom, especially if a pump was really sucking on an inlet at the bottom of a mash tun. Letting the mash stand for a few minutes before recirculation would probably help.


I always let the mash stand for the 10 minute/52 degree rest, and stir to make sure it's all soupy and not dough-bally.



TheWiggman said:


> I've heard conflicting advice beerisyummy and I've heard warnings against compacting the grain bed (but mainly to avoid stuck mash). Mb^2 on the other hand goes flat stick with his recirc flow and gets excellent results with efficiency. Until I see some tests I'm unconvinced either way
> I've found the vacuum of those pumps to be pretty high. I've only used the kiaxin and LBP but both seemed to pull a fair bit with a stuck mash. .


Heh. When I was doing a hybrid BIAB recirc thing, the LBP once pulled such a vacuum it actually bent the perforated bag rest thing I'd made to keep the bag off the element. It was made from 2mm thick perf plate!


Thanks for all the replies. The current mash regime is as follows.

Heat strike water in HLT.
Put milled grain into MLT
Pump hot water onto grain to acheive 52c
Stir
Wait 10 minutes
Start recirc pump and commence ramp to 62

Continue recirculating through 62/10, 66/45, 72/10, 78/10

set valves to lauter & fly sparge into kettle

Now previously, with the LBP, I'd have problems with the grain bed lifting at either the lauter or during the mash out stage. I did experiment with stirring halfway through the mash which seemed to help, but defeats the purpose of having a recirculating system. I still think it's a function of the crush size. At 1.6mm, there's a lot of whole looking grains, with intact husks that fall to bits when you touch them. I wouldn't be surprised if there was air trapped between the grain and husk. Of course when I milled the grain finer, the husks got ripped up smaller which stopped the air from being trapped there, but it also didn't allow the wort anywhere to travel through, resulting in the stuck mash.

Of course, i'll investigate the air pocket theories, but I think I'll also split the difference between crushes and go for a 1.4mm crush next time and see how that goes.

Cheers,

FB


----------



## Beerisyummy

Burt de Ernie said:


> I don't get it.....what is the point of restricting flow?


The flow is always restricted. You often have head pressure and there is always restriction due to the plumbing. Similar to beer line when you keg.

I never realised most guys were creating a substantial vacuum at the outlet of the MT. It makes sense why, but sounds like a bit of a balancing act.
Doing so must really ramp up the flow through the grain bed, and that sounds like a bonus.

What sort of mash efficiency are people averaging with this method?
Obviously there are different mash regimes, but something along the lines of the mash posted above by FB.

FB, have you contacted the equipment supplier for advice?


----------



## mb-squared

You can get very high efficiencies with this method. Here's a guy that claims to get mid- to high-nineties: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day-step-by-step?page=6

I follow his method pretty much exactly (without all the shiny bling) and get efficiencies in the low 90s.


----------



## QldKev

mb-squared said:


> You can get very high efficiencies with this method. Here's a guy that claims to get mid- to high-nineties: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day-step-by-step?page=6
> 
> I follow his method pretty much exactly (without all the shiny bling) and get efficiencies in the low 90s.


Are you talking pre-boil eff? Just that I hit 85% and would prefer to be a bit lower.


----------



## mb-squared

my mash and brewhouse efficiencies come in at ~90%. At least that is what I tell Beersmith when putting together recipes and I always hit my numbers. I've written about my brewday here: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/78681-my-typical-brew-day/

For me consistency is way more important than the actual efficiency.

FB, I know experimenting is a costly business, both in time and grain costs, but I would recommend trying a coarser crush (1.4mm should be sufficiently coarse) and ~3L/kg water-to-grain ratio. Perhaps that will help? Don't know what water/grain ratio you are currently running.


----------



## Fat Bastard

I was getting over 90% mash efficiency before I started buggering around with the grain crush!

mb x mb, always aim for 3/l kg ratio where possible, which is all the time except for big beers which would over flow the tun. One thing I have done on the last couple of brews is to adjust beersmith for the dead space. This will increase the L:G by the amount of dead space. Hmmm.

Another observation that is possibly unrelated is that when I was BIABing, LB pump hermsing or watching other peoples 3v, I've always has some foamy scum on top of the mash. With the big pump, this seems to have disappeared. Don't know of it's to do with the L:G increase due to dead space correction or the wort return pulling it under.

Next brew will experiment with1.4mm crush and keep the rice gulls handy.


----------



## Beerisyummy

QldKev said:


> Are you talking pre-boil eff? Just that I hit 85% and would prefer to be a bit lower.


I've been reading up a little on the efficiency thing lately and would be interested to know your reasons QK? Why do you want lower mash/ pre boil efficiency?
It's an interesting part of the whole HERMS homebrew movement that seems to lack a great deal of real data.

I too have been deliberately trying to lower my pre boil efficiency due to the HERMS effect. Now I'm trying to re-evaluate the reasons why. 
So far all I can think of is advice from very experienced and accomplished brewers who've been nice enough to share their knowledge. The problem there is that nearly all of them use a standard infusion mash system.


----------



## QldKev

The main reason I find is once you exceed 80% by too much you get a less grainy/malty flavor.


----------



## Beerisyummy

Nice one QK!
I wonder if that could be alleviated by adding a little fresh grist to the mash towards the end? Also, what sort of beers are you finding less grainy? Is it the lager variety?

Edit: Could it be that the ramp times and mash schedules are favouring the beta amylase?


----------



## mb-squared

QldKev said:


> The main reason I find is once you exceed 80% by too much you get a less grainy/malty flavor.


I could be wrong, but a thin mouthfeel in the final product is better addressed by upping your mash temp and/or your gravity (bigger grain bill or longer boil times), or by using a less attenuating yeast. I don't think the answer to better mouthfeel is to lower the efficiency of your rig.


----------



## QldKev

I find it pretty much across the board, but it shows a lot more in lower alcohol beers that are not slammed with hops. So if you are making a 5.5% APA with a hop rate of 200g/liter late additions (ok a bit over the top, but you get the idea) it's not as much an issue. It's not a mash temperature issue, although that will change how dextrinous the wort is. I'm not talking mouth feel. Even mashing for a thicker sweeter beer can result in less grainy flavor than desired.

Think of it this way, the higher the efficiency aka more sugar you extract from a given grain, the less malt you use. Hence less malt for flavor as there is more than just the starch component within the grain for flavor. I've tried substituting heavier malts to up the level, but there is a certain graininess that I like from lower efficiency mashes. This is also my personal preference, and the next 100 brewers may not be able to taste what I'm talking about.


----------



## Beerisyummy

QK has quite a few brews under his belt. If his perceived result from higher mash efficiencies is a less grainy flavour, I'm willing to take him on his word......and then the man himself posted.

Have you tried adding more grain towards the end of the mash yet? I'm itching to crack open the bag of grain I picked up yesterday and try it out.


----------



## dent

It makes some kind of sense - if the solubility for the grainy flavours is different (say, higher) to that of the saccharine matter, then all that will be sucked out of your mash first. So then additional efficiency yields more sugars, but not more "grainy flavour".


----------



## QldKev

I think dent has worded it clearer than I have. There are many flavor compounds that make up a gain of malt. 

I haven't tried adding more grain towards the end of the mash, I should give it a go.


----------



## surly

Hey all, I have been slowly reading through this, but nearly 60 pages takes a while!

I was originally planning to build myself a single vessel recirculating brewery, but when I looked at all the parts and cost, building a separate heat exchange and HERMS'ing it seemed pretty easy.
So, I am leaning towards using a small vessel, element from a kettle, copper pipe etc HEX. In a small vessel (<10L), would I need to stir/agitate the water in the HEX? or would convection etc be good enough?
I have noticed that people use pumps or similar when they use their MLT's for HERMS'ing, but these seem to be very large vessels.

Thanks for the assistance,

Tim.


----------



## Beerisyummy

IME, don't even bother with a coil unless you have sufficient surface interaction on both sides of the coil. Inside and out.

Building a single vessel recirculating brewery is not as expensive as a 3v.


----------



## mb-squared

dent said:


> It makes some kind of sense - if the solubility for the grainy flavours is different (say, higher) to that of the saccharine matter, then all that will be sucked out of your mash first. So then additional efficiency yields more sugars, but not more "grainy flavour".


ah, yes, I could see how that might be the case. neat!


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Greater efficiency from over sparging results in extraction of less favorable compounds.
I can achieve 90% plus efficiency but choose to set my sparge efficiency to 76% ** just for this reason.(**Same as adding more malt to grain bill )
If your last runnings are under 1.010 then you are heading into over sparged flavors.
Nev


----------



## surly

Beerisyummy said:


> IME, don't even bother with a coil unless you have sufficient surface interaction on both sides of the coil. Inside and out.
> 
> Building a single vessel recirculating brewery is not as expensive as a 3v.


Hi mate,
I was not really going to go full 3v. Was thinking of creating a mash tun and recirculating through that via the HEX, then just going straight to boil kettle. This would allow me to more easily play with step mashing and I like the idea of recirculating.
If I felt the need to sparge, I can always use my BigW pot. No added expense.
Only talking 20L batches here or less.

What would you consider sufficient surface interaction for the coil? Assuming 1/2' copper.

If it works out to be too much of a pain, I can drop it.


----------



## idzy

surly said:


> Hey all, I have been slowly reading through this, but nearly 60 pages takes a while!
> 
> I was originally planning to build myself a single vessel recirculating brewery, but when I looked at all the parts and cost, building a separate heat exchange and HERMS'ing it seemed pretty easy.
> So, I am leaning towards using a small vessel, element from a kettle, copper pipe etc HEX. In a small vessel (<10L), would I need to stir/agitate the water in the HEX? or would convection etc be good enough?
> I have noticed that people use pumps or similar when they use their MLT's for HERMS'ing, but these seem to be very large vessels.
> 
> Thanks for the assistance,
> 
> Tim.


10 litres is about the size of mine. You probably want as much copper as you can cram in to allow minimum water and maximum wort ratio in the HEX. Your proposal will work for batches up to 60 litres as mine does (subject to your design).

Cheers,
Idzy


----------



## Beerisyummy

surly said:


> Hi mate,
> I was not really going to go full 3v. Was thinking of creating a mash tun and recirculating through that via the HEX, then just going straight to boil kettle. This would allow me to more easily play with step mashing and I like the idea of recirculating.
> If I felt the need to sparge, I can always use my BigW pot. No added expense.
> Only talking 20L batches here or less.
> 
> What would you consider sufficient surface interaction for the coil? Assuming 1/2' copper.
> 
> If it works out to be too much of a pain, I can drop it.


Hi Surly,
If you're using a coil in a small pot I wouldn't stress too much about agitating the fluid around the coil. The convection currents in the water will do a fairly good job once it gets a bit of heat into it. Of course, there are obvious considerations to take into account, such as making sure the heating fluid can flow around the entire coil. Apart from that the coil in the kettle is pretty fool proof. As a bonus they are pretty simple to build out of annealed copper.

+ what Idzy said.


----------



## boybrewer

I have a 7lt pot with just over 3mt of copper in a 2v plus HX and it works extremely well . When sparging I use the LBP from the MT to the HLT and the HLT to the MT which is run by a march pump . I end up with around 75% mash efficiency and am very happy with it . If you read any books by Jamil Zainasheff I think that is how you spell his name he says that higher efficiency can produce flavours and mouth feel that is detremental to the production of a beer more so on the homebrewer side than the commercial brewers .


----------



## surly

Thanks for the responses guys.
Reckon this will be a fun little project that might actually be within my capabilities


----------



## Beerisyummy

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> Greater efficiency from over sparging results in extraction of less favorable compounds.
> I can achieve 90% plus efficiency but choose to set my sparge efficiency to 76% ** just for this reason.(**Same as adding more malt to grain bill )
> If your last runnings are under 1.010 then you are heading into over sparged flavors.
> Nev


76% seems very low if we're talking about the same thing. Is the 76% the mash efficiency as calculated in BS2?
The bloke who gave me a good rundown about mashing told me to taste the spent grains. Residual sweetness is good and astringency is bad as far as that chat went. It makes sense.

My last brew came in just shy of 88% and had the second runnings well above 1.010. Not that I'm saying this is better, I'm just trying to work out why it should be worse?
Of course I'll have to wait a while to see if there are any off flavours due to the mash, but I can't say I've noticed much in the past. The lagers I've been making came in at mid 90s on average and tasted very clean.

Do you have any advice on the over sparging flavours one should be looking out for Nev?

Edit: Also, how fine are you grinding your grain? Are your husks all ground up?


----------



## Donske

I'm sure this has been asked and answered previously but this thread is a bit too long to read every page for one bit of info.

I'm currently upgrading my brewery in stages looking to have a double batch HERMs set up by the end of the year, next up is a mash tun upgrade and I want to make sure I get it right for when I get around to adding the herms unit.

I have an 80L Techni Ice esky sitting around I'd like to repurpose, just got a couple of questions;

Are there any issues with having a long shallow grain bed with a herms set up?

What would be the best option for a FB, copper manifold, stainless braid or one of the Beer Belly false bottoms?


----------



## idzy

Donske. There are two types of techiice esky, long and deep. In my opinion long is not suitable to the 2:1 1:2 ratio suggested by howtobrew.com

I believe the guys with esky set ups use either the triangle beer belly one or a copper manifold, both with success. The beer belly one would have to be assessed against the size of your esky I'm guessing.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Idzy


----------



## coopsomulous

Donske.

use a 40L Technie Ice esky with a beer belly falsie and have been getting good results since i installed my HERMS. I only do single batches at the moment.

The beer belly falsie takes up a fair bit of the bottom of the esky, however Im not convinced that the corners of the mash tun are rinsed properly during a sparge and have recently returned to batch sparging to ensure those areas are rinsed properly during sparging. This probably has more to do with my sparge return being a silicon tube that i adjust its height using some string. Probably will end up building a better sparge return into the mash tun to distribute the water better.

With a longer esky I would assume that issue would be more pronounced. Somethign for you to consider i guess.

Cheers

TommyC


----------



## surly

Hey all, is there a preference for a particular diameter of copper pipe for use in a heat exchange?
I have bought my self a 7.5L stockpot to use and have just installed a kettle element. That all went surprisingly smoothly. Now looking into the copper pipe.
Appropriate lengths of 1/2inch coil is pretty hard to find and anything longer is getting quite expensive. Was intending to cram in as much as possible, though my ideas of 4-5 metres might be a little ambitious.


----------



## TheWiggman

General preference is 1/2" / 12.7mm mainly because of its abundance and price.

As for what wil perform better (i.e. best ramp times) the smaller the tube Ø, the better for heat transfer in brewing situations. However with a small pump going smaller Ø will restrict the flow (as will the length) and hence will slow the overall rate of change, working against the purpose. I have a personal project to put together a spreadsheet to calculate ideal lengths and diameters based on different pump types, but this won't be quick.

There are a few designs on here that have 5m+ in their HERMS, it's not an outrageous idea but might be slight overkill.


----------



## surly

TheWiggman said:


> General preference is 1/2" / 12.7mm mainly because of its abundance and price.
> 
> As for what wil perform better (i.e. best ramp times) the smaller the tube Ø, the better for heat transfer in brewing situations. However with a small pump going smaller Ø will restrict the flow (as will the length) and hence will slow the overall rate of change, working against the purpose. I have a personal project to put together a spreadsheet to calculate ideal lengths and diameters based on different pump types, but this won't be quick.
> 
> There are a few designs on here that have 5m+ in their HERMS, it's not an outrageous idea but might be slight overkill.


Thanks mate.

I was thinking that length based on the length availability of copper coil. There seems to be 3m, 6m and 18m. Obviously 18m is way too long and very expensive. I was concerned that 3m might be too short, but based on price and availability it is very tempting.
If you think this will be good enough, then that makes my life easier, especially when you factor in that masters have run out of the 6m stuff..


----------



## dent

3m is heaps. Even 1.5m is enough. I've done it, works fine.


----------



## idzy

The most important factor in my opinion is the displaced water volume. The element needs to be transfering as much heat to the wort as possible. With lots of water in the pot it does this less efficiently. That's why many opt for a smaller pot and why HLT herms units generally operate not as well. It is to do with the volume of water you are heating prior to heating the wort.

There is nothing wrong with a large coil with small displaced water as the water won't hold heat for long and cause overshoot.

*I'm not a scientist.


----------



## idzy

A theoretical calculation I was doing was ratio of wort in herms coil vs water in hex. The closer these are to one another the better I would say.


----------



## Beerisyummy

A valid point is that you should keep as much space as possible around each coil. An alternative is to circulate the water over the coils

Dent is right about the lengths that _will_ work. 3m should be plenty of compensation for any cock ups in design.
Just my opinion.


----------



## surly

Interesting info guys.
I have bought a 3m coil and will start putting this together in the next few days. Expect the volume of wort versus HEX fluid volume to be more in the HEXs favour..


----------



## pk.sax

Finally put together the hermit in the HLT. Ghetto-ish implementation atm, ideally I want a 5lt urn for the hex. C'mon eBay....


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

practicalfool said:


> Finally put together the hermit in the HLT. Ghetto-ish implementation atm, ideally I want a 5lt urn for the hex. C'mon eBay....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAussie Home Brewer1402201080.223722.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAussie Home Brewer1402201098.356638.jpg


Wont work if its upside down unless the air is very hot , is this reverse herms ? 
Dent will love the cable ties !
Nev


----------



## pk.sax

Heh, lots of hot air Nev, lots and lots 

I had not realised what a bitch this thin stainless is to drill. One broken pilot bit and another blunted pilot bit later... I need a shed, seriously.
Step bit did the job nicely in the end though.
I do have a complaint about the hermit coil. It doesn't look half as shiny as those pics when you first brought them out!!! Lol


----------



## Camo6

That's cause when they first came out Nev couldn't take his hand off it. I can't take mine out of the hex for fear of being blinded. I love my Herm-it coil but I fear he did first.


----------



## pk.sax

Fitted ball valve to HLT/herms. Also rigged up un-intentional boil dry protection:


----------



## Fat Bastard

Fat Bastard said:


> Some more detail of the grain bed lifting: when crushed at 1.6 with the LBP it would quote often release trapped air during mash out and especially when starting the transfer to the kettle. This would upset the bed and release grain particles to the kettle.
> 
> With the big pump, the whole bloody thing lifted to the top of the mash liquor as a single unified mass. No channelling, and only some tiny bits of grain got to the kettle. It sank as the level dropped when the fly sparge stopped and behaved normally.
> 
> At the 1.2 crush it stayed put, but channelled like a bastard and was very solid, and I suspect this is the reason for the channels.


 Anyway... finally got around to doing a brew with the grain crushed at 1.4mm. I also plumbed a valve onto the pump outlet to throttle the speed.

No stuck mash with the pump throttled back about half way, but the bloody grain bed lifted again, same as before. Also the wort wasn't real clear, but its hard to tell with a porter.

However, I think I'm on the right track here, the bed didn't lift when the valve was changed to lauter, and it stayed put for a good period whilst I fiddled around with the sparge balancing. Some air seemed to come out of it, but much less than I've seen previously.

I'll try running flat out again next time and see how it goes.


----------



## MastersBrewery

Camo6 said:


> That's cause when they first came out Nev couldn't take his hand off it. I can't take mine out of the hex for fear of being blinded. I love my Herm-it coil but I fear he did first.


what cocko's away and now you want to complain about sloppy seconds. h34r:


----------



## fattox

Anybody use a BCS460? I'm about to rig one up with my 2V Herms BIAB system. Trying to find the right probes is an absolute prick!


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

fattox said:


> Anybody use a BCS460? I'm about to rig one up with my 2V Herms BIAB system. Trying to find the right probes is an absolute prick!


I gave up on that business after contacting them twice and getting no reply. I hope their product support is better.
Nev


----------



## mb-squared

fattox said:


> Anybody use a BCS460? I'm about to rig one up with my 2V Herms BIAB system. Trying to find the right probes is an absolute prick!


I do and have been very happy with it. I've written about it here: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/79002-controlling-a-honeywell-gas-valve-with-bcs-460/

as for probes, try here or here.

Cheers,


----------



## Rieewoldt

hi guys,

not sure if this has been touched on before. I plan on using beersmith 2 when my herms build is complete.. Beersmith asks for mash tun deadspace (space under false bottom). I assume this info would be used by beersmith to adjust strike water volume to ensure that the entire strike volume is always in contact with the grain? does a herms system negate this information seeing how it would be recirculated anyhow? I suppose that the volume in contact with the grain is less when recircing (wort in lines, coil).... am i overthinking it? what does evrybody else do?


----------



## QldKev

Kayne said:


> hi guys,
> 
> not sure if this has been touched on before. I plan on using beersmith 2 when my herms build is complete.. Beersmith asks for mash tun deadspace (space under false bottom). I assume this info would be used by beersmith to adjust strike water volume to ensure that the entire strike volume is always in contact with the grain? does a herms system negate this information seeing how it would be recirculated anyhow? I suppose that the volume in contact with the grain is less when recircing (wort in lines, coil).... am i overthinking it? what does evrybody else do?


It's the volume of wort that is left behind after you have drained your runnings from the mash tun. The HERMS does not effect this.


----------



## Rieewoldt

QldKev said:


> It's the volume of wort that is left behind after you have drained your runnings from the mash tun. The HERMS does not effect this.


Yep. I was overthinking it.


----------



## Truman42

Beersmith uses mash tun dead space to calculate your final volumes. So using herms wont matter.


----------



## Rieewoldt

Truman said:


> Beersmith uses mash tun dead space to calculate your final volumes. So using herms wont matter.


Yep. I was thinking maybe it could have something to do with more dead space, thicker mash due to less water being in direct contact with the grain.


----------



## lmccrone

So i had the worst brew day yesterday, many problems! 

It was my first go at a HERMS arrangement, my day went like this...

Fill the mash tun with water, pump it through the heat exchanger and back into the mash tun via a sparge arm ( As a side note I fond the gentle babbling of the strike water as it was pumped around very relaxing as i milled my grain.) I had programmed it to get to 55 then i'd dough in, unfortunately the brew controller blew up after 10 min, not as relaxing. As my 12 V pump was running through the controller i had to get my car battery out to keep it going, i plugged the heating element into the wall and used the temp probe from my fermenting fridge to give me a digital read on the temp of the mash water, I will be my own PID controller,.

I dough in when the water hits 55, then attempt to recirculate the mash, no good. It worked for a bout 5 min and then the flow rate of the wort dropped to about nothing (i think i can call it wort once the grain is added right?) I assume its a blockage somewhere between the pump and the sparge arm, wrong no liquid is getting out of the mash tun, its a stuck mash. 

So i weigh up my options, my best bet is to cut my losses, I dump the lot into the compost. I figure i had a problem with the setting on the mill, i adjust the mill and crush another 10 kg of malt. This time I dispense with the protein rest and crank the temp up to 70 then dough in, I start the pump and this time it looks like I'm in business we are getting a good flow for about 5 mins until it all grinds to a halt again. #@#$%! Turn off the pump put a lid on the mash tun and leave it for an hour to calm down. So this time when i open the tap to collect the wort via gravity and it works fine. I then add some water to batch sparge. My problems don't end there but future issues can not be attributed to the HERMS they include hop flowers clogging up my system and cubes full of mould and pointed questions from the minister of war an finance about why i was still up at 11 pm brewing beer?

Assuming the therapy is a success and i ever venture back into the brewery can anyone help me out with why the pump would not pull the wort through the mash? FYI my grain bill was 10 kg of pils malt in about 40 L of water.

Any help would be very much appreciated


----------



## dent

What kind of pump are you running? Often if you try to pull the wort through too fast, the mash will clag up against whatever lautering screen/tube/braid/whatever and that will be that. Try to run your pump as slow as possible when you're just starting out, just enough to get the heat into the mash. Once you have an idea of how it runs, you can experiment and try to get your flow rate up faster. 

If you jam it up again, get your garden hose out or whatever and push some water back up in reverse through the (switched off) pump to de-clag your system, then give it another shot.


----------



## Truman42

What is your mill gap set at? Unfortunately there is a fine line between good efficiency and a stuck mash with some of our systems.
With my system over 1mm gap I don't get a stuck mash but I do get poorer efficiency, 60-65%. Under 1mm gap I manage 70-75% but end up with a stuck mash. YMMV

Put a ball valve on your MLT inlet just before your sparge arm, ( or just past the outlet on your pump if that's easier) and when you first start to recirculate just have it cracked open a touch for 5 mins until you set your grain bed. Then slowly open it up a bit more and so on and see how you go. It may not work though (it didn't for me). So I just use rice hulls every brew and don't seem to have problems anymore.

Also try to have your brown pump mounted so the body is vertical and pointing down so the body of the pump is upper most. These pumps are notorious for getting wort in behind the impeller and seizing the pump. (Lots of threads on here about it)
It can be fixed but it's a PITA during brew day. It seems to happen more at sparge temps. Happened to me a few times and after I cleaned out the pump and remounted it, I never had the problem again.


----------



## TheWiggman

I had EXACTLY the same issue with the stuck mash. My advice is turn off off pump and HERMS, dough in, and wait 5 mins. Give the grain a chance to the clean a bit. 
Close off the return valve (if you have one), turn the pump back on and open it up to a trickle ~1l/min for a bit. Then gradually open the valve 'til it's going at whatever rate you want. 

If you get a stuck mash again don't give up. Turn the pump off, stir around your braid or false bottom and get the grain off it. Follow the above (choke off flow) and you should be back in business.


----------



## TheWiggman

Ed: thicken, not clean. How did autocorrect stuff that up?


----------



## mofox1

Herms... Coil in HLT Vs separate hx vessel. The latest in a long line of things I've been over thinking and/or obsessing over.

I'm not sure if I'm tying to convince myself I want a separate hx, or talk myself out of it. 

I know that, theoretically, a 5500w element can heat 75L of water a degree per minute. This is assuming zero heat loss. Let's say we're very well insulated, and get close-ish to this figure.

If we have a "coil in HLT" style Herms, with 16m of 1/2" coil, we should (?) be able to assume that, given sufficient HLT water agitation, the wort coming out of the coil is virtually the same temperature as the HLT temperature (also assuming that the initial differential wasn't too large).

If you need 45L to sufficiently cover the coil and there's about 15kg or so of mass in the mash tun (60 total mass to heat), then I would assume that a 1 deg/min ramp should be achievable, since theoretically it should be able to do 75 without heat loss.

Due to pumping constraints/capabilities there would also be a couple minutes difference between the bottom of the grain bed reaching the temperature of the returned wort. Although this last point would equally affect a dedicated Herms vessel setup.

So, how much of the above sounds reasonable? Would a 5500w coil in HLT herms be able to achieve a 1 degree/min ramp for a single batch size?


----------



## TheWiggman

Sounds reasonable. Your logic is right, >1°C/min will be achievable provided there is no heat loss and assuming you initial cal is correct.
With a veeeeery long coil make sure you have a pump that can keep the liquid flowing quickly. Otherwise the liquid in the coil will reach the HLT temp quickly and you might end up with a bit of overshoot.

My personal opinion is go a separate HEx. That's not based on anything really, I just think it's the most effective approach.


----------



## woodfired

Hi guys,

I just signed up today. I'm only doing 20lt batches but my very small home made copper coil modelled off the gryphon ss coil is only about 1m long and fits directly into an off the shelf bigW kettle which I control with a pid. It achieves very good ramp times. I think this is because the coil occupies a large percentage of the space in the kettle.
All of my research prior to building indicated that maximising the amount of coil in contact with the controlled water was the most important factor in a herms. This doesn't mean lots of pipe, it means matching pipe length and coil shape to vessel. In my case a $7.50 kettle. If you get your strike water temp right, your herms doesn't have much work to do, just a small adjust after dough in. Mash out with some 80 degree water adjusted to mash ph and you only need herms to hold it there.
This has been working on my system. Interested to hear your thoughts.

WFG.


----------



## dent

> I think this is because the coil occupies a large percentage of the space in the kettle.


Not really. If, for example, you took your little kettle size coil and put it in a 50L vessel which could heat just as fast as your kettle (not without a shitload of power), your ramp time would be the same. Putting even more copper in that same 50L vessel wouldn't make a significant difference.

Not that I am saying your setup is suboptimal - actually it is pretty much the same as what I run.

All that matters is that you get enough heat transfer so that the HX does not boil. This heat transfer is relative to the amount of copper (which requires very little, just like you have discovered, with only a couple kW), and the flow (which just has to be adequate). After that there are quickly diminishing returns to increasing either the flow or the amount of copper. 

The only way to increase ramp rate after that, is more power.


----------



## Kingy

I've come to a couple of problem/ questions which are holding my build up.
1. The inlet at the top of the mash. What sort of configuration to run. Where to put the hole. And what fittings do you guys use. I understand you don't want any splashing or oxidizing. So do you just run a 90 degree on the outside to a weldless bulkhead (ally pot) ito a height below the liquid level on the inside or something else.
2. I had a meter length of copper laying around and tried to bend it around my template for my here unit and it bent, am I better off getting some soft copper in a coil and rebending that or is there a better way to bend copper from a straight length.
Hope this makes sence. 
The bock has given me a serving. Lol


----------



## Burt de Ernie

mofox1 said:


> So, how much of the above sounds reasonable? Would a 5500w coil in HLT herms be able to achieve a 1 degree/min ramp for a single batch size?


I would say without doubt however, have you given thought to what is average temp that will be maintained in the HLT? Assuming its 75 degree how would you stop overshoot?

Below is a graph showing ramp times of 40 litres of water from 16 to 67 and maintenance phase. This if from a 1.9 litres HERMS set at 75 degree.


----------



## boybrewer

Kingy said:


> I've come to a couple of problem/ questions which are holding my build up.
> 1. The inlet at the top of the mash. What sort of configuration to run. Where to put the hole. And what fittings do you guys use. I understand you don't want any splashing or oxidizing. So do you just run a 90 degree on the outside to a weldless bulkhead (ally pot) ito a height below the liquid level on the inside or something else.
> 2. I had a meter length of copper laying around and tried to bend it around my template for my here unit and it bent, am I better off getting some soft copper in a coil and rebending that or is there a better way to bend copper from a straight length.
> Hope this makes sence.
> The bock has given me a serving.


I just run silicone hose into the top of the grain bed no problems . If you are using a keggle you could always drill a hole in the inside rim of it and fit a weldless bulkhead into it and run some copper with a 90* elbow or just run some hose off it .

There are a number of ways to bend copper .

1. Fill it with salt .
2. Fill it with sand .
3. Fill it with water and freeze it .
4. Buy a pipe bender .

All three ways will work for bending copper without kinking it . If you buy the annealed copper from the big green shed , which is what I did . It is already coiled up , all I did was wrap it around a Milo tin to get a tighter coil which fitted snugly into my 7Lt pot all 6 and a bit meters .


----------



## mofox1

Burt de Ernie said:


> I would say without doubt however, have you given thought to what is average temp that will be maintained in the HLT? Assuming its 75 degree how would you stop overshoot?
> 
> Below is a graph showing ramp times of 40 litres of water from 16 to 67 and maintenance phase. This if from a 1.9 litres HERMS set at 75 degree.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> post-26871-0-08688300-1399781793.jpg


I think the basic assumption is that you have a *lot* of coil in the tank - 15m worth. The wort temp coming out of the coil will match the HLT temp exactly (mostly, kinda, sort of). Possibly the larger thermal mass of the HLT will assist in self regulating, as it will take a proportional larger amount of input energy to cause the temp in the HLT to overshoot. I don't know... I haven't done it, or did enough thermodynamics/control systems engineering to be able to give an educated guess.

And if that fails, don't control based on the mash temp, but on the HLT temp instead. Which is probably safer anyway.


----------



## Kingy

Kingy said:


> 1. The inlet at the top of the mash. What sort of configuration to run. Where to put the hole. And what fittings do you guys use. I understand you don't want any splashing or oxidizing. So do you just run a 90 degree on the outside to a weldless bulkhead (ally pot) ito a height below the liquid level on the inside or something


My concern is to not have any splashing so if I was to add bends and return the liquor at the inside of the pot the temp on the opposite side is always going to be different as wouldn't that mean I'm only recirculating one side if the mash?

Or does it not really make that much difference.

Is it easy to get the sand out of the copper once it's bent?


----------



## QldKev

Aim the return stream across the mash tun, and with enough flow the top layer will continuously mix.

This is my 3V mash tun a couple of years back. Although I'm always playing with the brew gear the return arm is still the same setup. The return is about 2min 15sec in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIn48WUgZRU&list=UUDInzeelCPde0_pvzMdzhng


Get the soft annealed copper, it is easy to bend to shape, no sand etc needed.


----------



## boybrewer

Kingy said:


> My concern is to not have any splashing so if I was to add bends and return the liquor at the inside of the pot the temp on the opposite side is always going to be different as wouldn't that mean I'm only recirculating one side if the mash?
> 
> Or does it not really make that much difference.
> 
> Is it easy to get the sand out of the copper once it's bent?


Yeah it's easy to get sand out just flush it with the hose after tipping as much out as you can . I made a lid for my keggle and punched a hole in the center of it and poked the house down onto the grain bed where I sit it in an aluminium BBQ tray with slots in it .


----------



## GrumpyPaul

Built my Hex last night - 3m of copper in a 7 litre urn.




Ok so I started ready this and got to about page 7 and figured I would just ask questions rather than read all 61 pages.

*1. Is there an ideal flow rate through the HX or does it vary dependant on factors such as thickness of mash, how hot the HEX gets etc?*
I can slow mine down to about a litre/minute on a test run of just water with no grain in the MT. I have marked on the ball valve tap where to open it to so I get 1ltre/min.

*2.Will the extent of the tap opening be the same if it is pumping through a the grain bed?*
ie Will I need to figure out how much to open the tap in order to get the litre/min flow rate when there is grain in the MT

*3. Is the slower the flow through the HX the quicker the ramp time (degree/min)?*

*4. Do I need to recirculate through the HX for the entire 60 min mash time?*
If my mash tun holds temp well - is there any point running the pump and HX for the full time if it does need to heat the wort? Or can I just recirculate through the HEX at the end of the mash time in order to clarify the wort and to increase the temp for step mashing or mash out?


----------



## razz

Hey GP. Good to see people making the best out of what they have. A bit of home enginuity.
1. Flow rate will be governed by how good your false bottom is. Generally the bigger the diameter the more you can pump through. Also grain crush, if it's to fine it can compact the grain bed very easily. You will work out the best flow rate for your system. You can run it at 1lt per minute and then experiment with slightly more flow.
2. Yep, because of what I said above.
3. I haven't used a dedicated setup like yours,I had a large coil in the HLT. But regardless of size the flow will be governed by Q1. Generally slower flow allows more heat pickup through the HX.
4. I generally start running the HX when I want to ramp the temp to the next step i.e. mash out. You will need to run the HX to maintain temp. putting a blanket/camping mat around the MT helps in the cooler months to keep it warm. Definitely get a good recirc going before running off so you have great looking wort going into the kettle.


----------



## Yob

I was chatting to Grumpy about this last night and dammit.. with all his bloody builds going on my fingers have started to twitch..

I want to leave the tap in place (or maybe swap out for a decent one), drill an inlet through the side at the top and an outlet through the side at the bottom.





essentially I want to replicate my existing HEX which is a BigW 19lt pot set up to CIP, absolutely nothing wrong with my current one and it works perfectly but I think that the volume is a bit much and a tight coil in an urn may well be the goods.

Whats the issue with a double walled vessel like this 5lt Birko Urn.. cant it be sealed with a goodly amount of silicone and weldless seals?


----------



## GrumpyPaul

Yob said:


> I was chatting to Grumpy about this last night and dammit.. with all his bloody builds going on my fingers have started to twitch..
> 
> I want to leave the tap in place (or maybe swap out for a decent one), drill an inlet through the side at the top and an outlet through the side at the bottom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Urn.jpg
> 
> essentially I want to replicate my existing HEX which is a BigW 19lt pot set up to CIP, absolutely nothing wrong with my current one and it works perfectly but I think that the volume is a bit much and a tight coil in an urn may well be the goods.
> 
> Whats the issue with a double walled vessel like this 5lt Birko Urn.. cant it be sealed with a goodly amount of silicone and weldless seals?


Yob - that's basically the same as mine (see the photo on the previous page) - Except not double walled.

I took the coil up out through the plastic lid and not the side.

I figured leaving the tap in place will make it easy to drain.


----------



## QldKev

GrumpyPaul said:


> Built my Hex last night - 3m of copper in a 7 litre urn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMAG0007.jpg
> 
> Ok so I started ready this and got to about page 7 and figured I would just ask questions rather than read all 61 pages.
> 
> *1. Is there an ideal flow rate through the HX or does it vary dependant on factors such as thickness of mash, how hot the HEX gets etc?*
> I can slow mine down to about a litre/minute on a test run of just water with no grain in the MT. I have marked on the ball valve tap where to open it to so I get 1ltre/min.
> 
> *2.Will the extent of the tap opening be the same if it is pumping through a the grain bed?*
> ie Will I need to figure out how much to open the tap in order to get the litre/min flow rate when there is grain in the MT
> 
> *3. Is the slower the flow through the HX the quicker the ramp time (degree/min)?*
> 
> *4. Do I need to recirculate through the HX for the entire 60 min mash time?*
> If my mash tun holds temp well - is there any point running the pump and HX for the full time if it does need to heat the wort? Or can I just recirculate through the HEX at the end of the mash time in order to clarify the wort and to increase the temp for step mashing or mash out?


*1. Is there an ideal flow rate through the HX or does it vary dependant on factors such as thickness of mash, how hot the HEX gets etc?*
I believe the fastest you can flow it without sucking down the mash bed/stuck mash is the best.

*2.Will the extent of the tap opening be the same if it is pumping through a the grain bed?*
I find it is slower running through the grain bed. Also depending on what the bed is made up of makes it vary. A lot of adjuncts result in less flow.

*3. Is the slower the flow through the HX the quicker the ramp time (degree/min)?*
Yes and No. A slow flow will allow more time for the wort to heat up in the HX, so the outlet will result in higher temperatures. But, mainly when ramping, a slow flow results in longer mash temperature lags. As per Q1 I recommend the fastest flow you can get on the day. Set your mash bed and push it.

*4. Do I need to recirculate through the HX for the entire 60 min mash time?*
I recommend keeping the pump running. Any lag temperature in the mash bed will equalize, and balance out better. Also you will get great wort clarity.


----------



## Yob

New 5lt Birko Urn HEX ($40)




...Yes the bottom was a bitch to seal...




now... to test the thing


----------



## TheWiggman

Geez Yob that escalated quickly. Looks good, now insulate that biatch. 
100% agree with Qld Kev's corrections - higher flow is better. There will be a point where increasing the flow won't provide any benefit, but it's a fallacy that slowing the flow will get better ramp times for the mash. Watch your mash temp, not outlet temp and you'll prove this to yourself.


----------



## Yob

I've got leftover insulation from the HLT build so will be done pretty quickly


----------



## GrumpyPaul

More questions about running my herms.


I am using an STC1000 to control it.
Temp probe is at the point where the wort exits the HEX.
STC is set at 66.

I noticed the hose out of the HEX felt really hot - so I tested the mash bed temp with a thermometer.

The Temperature of the mash bed was almost 70.

What's wrong here? Surely I dont want my grain to be sitting at 70?????

And...second question.

Is there an ideal water/grain ratio for HERMS?

Third question

What give better efficiency with a HERMS - batch or fly sparging.


----------



## neal32

GrumpyPaul said:


> More questions about running my herms.
> 
> 
> I am using an STC1000 to control it.
> Temp probe is at the point where the wort exits the HEX.
> STC is set at 66.
> 
> I noticed the hose out of the HEX felt really hot - so I tested the mash bed temp with a thermometer.
> 
> The Temperature of the mash bed was almost 70.
> 
> What's wrong here? Surely I dont want my grain to be sitting at 70?????
> 
> And...second question.
> 
> Is there an ideal water/grain ratio for HERMS?
> 
> Third question
> 
> What give better efficiency with a HERMS - batch or fly sparging.


1. The positioning of the probe is fine but I don't think an STC will cut it, or any thermostat. You need a PID brah and a way better probe, K type at the least. I got an RTD one from Auber, it kicks arse.

2. Maybe a bit thinner than normal.

3. Fly


----------



## Yob

Is the etc calibrated? Disagree about the PID, (sure, more functionality but not essential) mine has a max overshootof 0.4'c in summer, less at this time of year

A better probe? Maybe.. but mine seems to suffice..


----------



## SimoB

I use stc on my herms. Works fine. I dint gay over shoots as I know the system


----------



## Yob

SimoB said:


> I use stc on my herms. Works fine. I dint gay over shoots as I know the system


You been up to cockos again?


----------



## SimoB

Hahaha I really need to read my post before sending. Bloody gay over shoots. I don't get any over shoots using my stc though


----------



## Camo6

Have you checked the stc against a known good thermometer around mash temps GP? Also, are you using a thermowell for the probe, and if so have you used a thermal paste for good heat transfer?

I aim for around 2.8l to 3l per kilo from memory.

I've never tried batch sparging as when I moved to 3v all my research indicated fly sparging would give better efficiency so that's what I went with.


----------



## TheWiggman

neal32 said:


> 1. The positioning of the probe is fine but I don't think an STC will cut it, or any thermostat. You need a PID brah and a way better probe, K type at the least. I got an RTD one from Auber, it kicks arse.
> 
> 2. Maybe a bit thinner than normal.
> 
> 3. Fly


K-type is a thermocouple. These are less accurate and better suited for high temps. Moreover, they're not compatible with an STC-1000. The standard probe will be more accurate and less variable than a thermocouple. 
Grumpy, whatever you measured your mash bed with calibrate your STC-1000 against that (assuming it's an accurate thermometer). Glass of water, place both probes in it, and adjust F4 until they both give the same reading.


----------



## GrumpyPaul

Yob said:


> You been up cockos again?


Up Cocko's what?


----------



## GrumpyPaul

Yob said:


> Is the etc calibrated?


No will have to check it - but if the STC is 4degrees out - all my ferment temps for that last couple of years have been screwed




TheWiggman said:


> Grumpy, whatever you measured your mash bed with calibrate your STC-1000 against that (assuming it's an accurate thermometer). Glass of water, place both probes in it, and adjust F4 until they both give the same reading.


I just bought a couple of these that I was measuring the mash with. Tested it in the boil and it was reading spot on 100 - so I assume reasonably accurate.




Camo6 said:


> Have you checked the stc against a known good thermometer around mash temps GP? Also, are you using a thermowell for the probe, and if so have you used a thermal paste for good heat transfer?
> 
> I aim for around 2.8l to 3l per kilo from memory.
> 
> I've never tried batch sparging as when I moved to 3v all my research indicated fly sparging would give better efficiency so that's what I went with.


As above will calibrate STC before the next brew.

I went with 3l per kilo yesterday - but farked things up a bit, my recipe was for a 19l batch but I brewed it as 23L so I effectively watered it down which doesn't help when your trying to working out efficiency. Will do the next batch at 3l and see how it goes.

First two batches I fly sparged.

Yesterdays batch I did a bit of both....

Pumped from the mash into the kettle at about a litre a minute while draining sparge water from HLT to MLT at same rate. Once I got roughly the amount expected from the initial mash into kettle I recirculated the sparge water through the HEX for about 15-20 mins then pumped to kettle.

But as mentioned above I farked up my volumes so I don't know if it is any better or worse than straight out fly sparging.


----------



## Camo6

How's your sensor mounted Grumpy? I can't see it in the pic. Just thinking if it's sitting in a thermowell without heat sink paste it could be slightly insulated and reading lower than the liquid exiting your hex. That would explain a higher mash bed temp?


----------



## GrumpyPaul

Camo6 said:


> How's your sensor mounted Grumpy? I can't see it in the pic. Just thinking if it's sitting in a thermowell without heat sink paste it could be slightly insulated and reading lower than the liquid exiting your hex. That would explain a higher mash bed temp?


A bit of 1/2" copper pipe just outside the HEX, hole drilled in pipe, rubber grommet in hole, STC probe pushed through grommet forms a water tight seal. Wort is therefore running directly over the probe as it passes through the pipe


----------



## Camo6

Sounds like it should be in good contact then. Back to the drawing board.


----------



## GrumpyPaul

So I checked the STC probe and the thermometer in a cup of hot water and they both read almost spot on (+/- 0.1)

But when the STC is in the HEX it definitely reads 3degrees lower than the mash bed.

I did another brew and calibrated the STC accordingly. I checked it several times and mash temp and and hex temp were align perfectly.

I cant for the life of me think of a logical reason why the temp in the Mash bed could be 3 degrees higher than the HEX outlet if anything I would have thought it should be lower.

But recalibrating the STC when I use it in the HEX isn't an impossible workaround.

It does mean that my first couple of brews on this rig before I figured this out were probably mashed a little high at around 69-70degrees.


----------



## jonnir

How long were you letting it recirc for at your set temp before taking readings?


----------



## woodfired

I bought my PIDs from ebay with 1/2 inch threaded rtd100 thermocouples. Set me back a huge $25 so I bought two and set one up on the tun output and one on the tun input. I control the herms element with the input thermocouple and just have the output one showing up on the second PID as a reading. Figured 25 bucks was worth the extra info. It gives you a really good feel for if your flow is sufficient. Mash temp spot checks line up pretty well with output temps but controlling input is the way to go because if your flow is right they track pretty well.
Ps. I have stainless tee fittings with thermocouple in one end of the 'straight' and the input in the other with the output out of the third port. This sets the thermocouple pointing into the flow.


----------



## Yob

HEX MKII

5 LT Birko, still to be insulated same as the HLT but getting the hoses sorted out


----------



## Hugh Jarse

I need help please.......
I have just finished a rebuild on the rig and have gone the electric route (was gas fired). HERMS coil from Nev at Online Brewing Supplies and it worked a treat when I made the poly herms tube.
Since new electric rig completed, have included the HERMS in the HLT aka The Electric Brewery.
Cleaning and commissioning phase today, and while it takes me 1 hr to get 40l in the HLT to 65, for the life of me I can't get the HERMS and Mash up to 65...............
I have tried just about everything..... throttle valve at pump out, throttle valve at recirc to mash, heat HLT first and then recirc, heat both at once...... I am really scratching my head. 
The only thing that has changed is the fact that I got rid of the Herms tube and single 2000w element and put it all into the HLT with control from the panel. 
I have tested with multiple thermometers and all that is displayed is correct.
Esky is the same as before, pumps the same.
I am really scratching my head now..........


----------



## mb-squared

Kal runs the valves on his rig wide open to get the temps in the MT and HLT to be the same. but he has a 50' HERMS coil. it looks like you've got about 2'. not sure that's the reason, but it'd be where I'd start. 

I have a similar setup to yours (in terms of HERMS in HLT, at least) and am able to get the temps in the MT and HLT be the same -- but I have 50' of copper coiled up in my HLT.

When you were using that coil in a poly tube, I'm guessing the temps in the poly tube were quite a bit higher than the temp you are running your HLT at in your new setup?


----------



## Hugh Jarse

Very good point there mb-squared, I hadn't thought of the temp probes measuring the different places and you are right with regards to the temp being hotter in the herms tube. Thanks for that, I will look at investing in some copper for a herms coil instead or run the HLT about 5 above the desired mash...... Cheers


----------



## Hugh Jarse

Just tried and 7 above seems about right. Thanks mb for that insight, helped heaps! Now just have to wait about 5 weeks before I can brew a SMaSH


----------



## TheWiggman

7°C difference?! That's a heap. Do you run both pumps at the same time right from firing up your element? I can imagine the MT will lag behind a bit but 7°C seems high.
I'll bet if you leave it for ages the difference will narrow as the rate of change in the MT will drop when you get closer to the 'target' temp. And as mb-squared said, keep those valves wide open. Also consider investing in some additional insulation.

By the way, that's one tidy looking setup you've got there.


----------



## Hugh Jarse

Thanks Wiggman, will have to invest in some insulation down the track and just ordered 2 x 4500w elements, currently running 3500w on a 20 amp dedicated brewing circuit. Will look at changing out the herms for copper depending on the price of it at the local hardware today. Alternatively could go with the 3/8 50' stainless chiller from grain and grape but not too sure on the 3/8" diameter and flow restriction? Anyone running. 3/8" coil?


----------



## mb-squared

if the "3/8" refers to the internal diameter, then that should be fine. if it refers to the OD, then it's probably too small. my coil has an OD of 12.7mm (1/2"), so its ID is probably right at 3/8" and it works well enough.


----------



## TheWiggman

3/8" will be OD.

Smaller dimameter tube will give you better heat transfer (more turbulence) for a given length but will restrict flow, which will reduce the transfer rate*. I'd stick with 1/2" for cost, more available fittings and higher flow rate, which will probably result in more efficient heat transfer.

* ED: for small poly pumps like yours


----------



## Hugh Jarse

Thanks Wiggman and mb-squared for your input. Have gone for the 1/2" copper and managed to cram about 14-15m into my pot utilising the deadspace. I realise the coils restricts flow but really didn't want the hex to be any higher in the pot and wanted to utilise the same holes from previous hex. 
Tested today and works a treat. Hex out stayed about 2 degrees behind the HLT and the mash bed (20l) was about 2-3 degrees behind that. About 15mins after HLT was at temp the mash got there. Return flow is a little slow but will reconfigure the sparge arm to account for that. 
Waiting on 4500w ripple elements and then will be in action. 
Thanks for the help people.


----------



## mb-squared

wow, I'm really impressed with how neat and tidy that coil looks. geeze, I wish I could bend tube like that!


----------



## Hugh Jarse

Thanks mb, took a bit of effort and a few choice words but got there in the end. Only one small kink on bottom of front left coil that I put there when I was working on getting it away from the element. Managed the last turn to the connection using a tube bender, had to otherwise I would have wasted the afternoon by kinking the shit out it.


----------



## dent

That thing looks cool but it is total overkill. I bet just one of those coils would do the job.


----------



## TheWiggman

Recently I seem to be ok then suffer from stuck sparges. I use a braided hose as you can see below -






Last 2 brews took about 2-2.5h to sparge because the unassisted flow rate from the MLT was barely a trickle. Got brilliant efficiency, but it was slow and painful.

Yesterday I did AndrewQld's CPA clone and found that with the very fine crush the wheat flour seemed to turn into a glue. I allowed about 10 mins of no circulation to start with, but after about 30 mins of mashing (52°C step) the flow almost stopped.
I turned the pump off and dug the base of pot out as it had settled HARD. Took quite a bit of elbow grease to dig it up. There were large solid clumps coming up which separated into solution when stirred. I backed the flow off to 50% once the pump was back on.
About 20 mins later I did the same thing with the pump running. Some minor settling.
I tried it a third time and it was much better. When sparging, liquor flowed out much better and I had to choke it off to avoid too much flow into the boiler.

In future this is what I'll be doing -

Heat to strike temp
Turn off pump, add grain
Wait 5 mins
Turn on pump, slowly increasing flow to 50%
After 20 mins, stir settled grain, 50% flow
After 10-20 mins, stir again and confirm loose grains. Adjust flow as needed.
An alternative is rice hulls or coarser crush, but this recipe came delivered.


----------



## mofox1

TheWiggman said:


> Recently I seem to be ok then suffer from stuck sparges. I use a braided hose as you can see below -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Last 2 brews took about 2-2.5h to sparge because the unassisted flow rate from the MLT was barely a trickle. Got brilliant efficiency, but it was slow and painful.
> 
> Yesterday I did AndrewQld's CPA clone and found that with the very fine crush the wheat flour seemed to turn into a glue. I allowed about 10 mins of no circulation to start with, but after about 30 mins of mashing (52°C step) the flow almost stopped.
> I turned the pump off and dug the base of pot out as it had settled HARD. Took quite a bit of elbow grease to dig it up. There were large solid clumps coming up which separated into solution when stirred. I backed the flow off to 50% once the pump was back on.
> About 20 mins later I did the same thing with the pump running. Some minor settling.
> I tried it a third time and it was much better. When sparging, liquor flowed out much better and I had to choke it off to avoid too much flow into the boiler.
> 
> In future this is what I'll be doing -
> 
> Heat to strike temp
> Turn off pump, add grain
> Wait 5 mins
> Turn on pump, slowly increasing flow to 50%
> After 20 mins, stir settled grain, 50% flow
> After 10-20 mins, stir again and confirm loose grains. Adjust flow as needed.
> An alternative is rice hulls or coarser crush, but this recipe came delivered.


I can attest to the use of rice hulls.. I did a 30% rye, 20% wheat, 50% barley a week or two ago and it worked great. Similar mash tun setup too:





I did a 70% wheat w/o the hulls and it was *slow*. I mean really, reallllly slow. After the first slow sparge I came across a great solution - Pump your sparge water back up through the braid, it'll push out the finer crap that blocking it and allow the bigger husks to settle back over it. Mostly benefical for batch sparging, but could help if done periodically for fly.

Obviously you still need to stir & then recirc/vorlauf otherwise you'll end up with pretty thin runnings, but it worked a treat.


----------



## RustyT

So I have finally gotten around to building my brew stand. I'm about halfway through the build now and I'm pretty happy with it so far. Just waiting for the stainless fittings and temp controller to come, so I can build the HLT and herms arrangement. Speaking of which I have a couple of options for the HLT. I can get my hand on a pretty beating up 50L keg (looks like it actually fell of a truck) or I can use my old aluminium boil pot, which is still in ok condition after a good scrub with some scotch brite pad. Not sure which way to go, don't want to ruin the good looking rig with a busted up HLT.

Can't wait to do my first Herms brew!


----------



## drifting79

Rusty you will need a nice step or platform to work at that height for extended periods looks nice and neat


----------



## RustyT

Yeah I will have to get a step. Hopefully wont need to be up there to much after mash in.


----------



## TheWiggman

Had my first proper stuck sparge yesterday, which resulted in comical results overall.

Mash in at 70°C, dropped to 65°C (perfect)
Turned on recirc 5-10 mins later.
Walked away satisfied. Returned to find dribble out of recirculating line. Turned off pump, stirred around braid, eased pump back on. Grain temp ~61°C.
As above for 72 and mash-out rest.
No matter what I did the recirc would block up and a dribble would come out at the best of times. It'd be lucky to be a litre/min. I went to fly sparge and it opened the drain valve 100%. After about half an hour there would have been lucky to be 200ml in the kettle.
What ensued was a lot of hose swapping, swear words and pumping from the drain to the kettle. I batch sparged. Efficiency went down and ended up with about 3 fewer litres 3 points below SG.

This whole time I was doing a lot of thinking as it's never been this bad. Then I realised: I milled some of the grains twice and thought nothing of it. My daughter of 3 'helped out' with the milling. I let her go for a few minutes then turned around to find she was running the mill backwards. A LOT of uncracked grain went through and mixed with the cracked grain. I put it all back in the hopper and went for round 2.
This pic of the MT following sparge tells the story -





Sludgey, fine flour all through it. No matter how much I stirred it didn't seem to settle very hard, but just wouldn't allow a decent recirc. Very frustrating. Hopefully the beer will turn out ok because temp control was horrible.

Lesson learnt: keep girls out of the brewery.


----------



## SmallFry

Hint. Always keep a couple of handfuls of rice hulls handy. Would have cleared that right up. Also,I mash at a water:grist ratio of 3:1 minimum.


----------



## Yob

weird as it is, and it's a bit of a legacy from my old system.. but I use a sheet of voile over my manifold.. only the finest of particulate can make it through and Ive never suffered a stuck sparge.. also agree that a min. 3L/kg is a good ratio

The voile also ensures that the manifold is so incredibly easy to clean and the pump cannot get grain stuck in it.. though I no longer use the LBP that this was for (now a march with a chugger inline head) I find no reason to change.

so I guess my system is a 4VHBIAB?

What sort of pump are you running Wiggman?


----------



## TheWiggman

3l/kg was exactly the ratio I used. The mash wasn't very thick, but it'd pump a few hundred ml and block up each time.
I used the O.B.S. sparge braid so I think the very fine stuff clogged it up quick-smart and wouldn't be as much of an issue with a false bottom.

Pump is green poly pump from Craftbrewer / Kaixin. A bigger pump would be nice, but so would money.


----------



## dent

I don't think the double crush is necessarily to blame. By the time your mash has finished, the parts of your grist that you overcrushed into flour should be mostly gone into solution. There's always going to be some fine insoluble particles, but the fact that they've deposited as a layer on the top of your mash isn't very significant -- it has more to do with the flow movement of your recirc/sparge than anything else.

I do find the worst thing you can do on a HERMS rig is stir the mash while the pump is running. For whatever reason, it ensures that the bits of grain wedge in whatever manifold/braid you're using and jams it up quick smart. I get tempted now and then, and EVERY TIME it jams it up.

If you get stuck, it is better to get your hose and pump some water backwards through the system to flush out your manifold/braid, which pushes the grain bits away enough to get it going again. Even with just cold water is fine.

Start the flow at a minimum level - ie turn the pump on with the output valve shut. Then open it up enough to get your minimum flow required. Never run it flat out such that the flow is limited by the intake allowed by your manifold/braid.

I use the same OBS braid, stick with it, it is great stuff. A false bottom can be just as problematic.


----------



## mofox1

Sounds like a long day Wiggman...

A good way to clear the braid is to flush a few litres of hot water (at full bore) back up the mash tun outlet, ie - back into the braid. Give it a good stir while doing so, then re-plumb and recirc a few litres before continuing with the sparge. Depending on when you get stuck, you may want to continue fly sparging, or give up and go for batch... If I'm batch sparging I'll sometimes just fill the whole batch from the bottom.

Anyways, worked for me when I did a high % wheat, and I'm using a braid too. YMMV.


But yeah - rice hulls work a treat too... certainly saved the mucking around the next time.


----------



## TheWiggman

Did all that sorry gents, ended up back at square 1. Only think I haven't used is rice hulls. Never had this problem before too I might add.
I've also used a high wheat % before (50%) with no issues.

ED: realised I didn't include all details to avoid TL;DR. Here are the basic methods used -

Pump off, stirred around braid, cleared as much as possible. Turned on pump, cracked 'til flow. Increased flow slightly after 1 min. Opened 80%. Came back after 20 mins, dribbling.
As above but 45%. Same result after 2-3 mins
As above but waited 2 mins before turning on pump.
Losing patience with children
Blew liquid back through braid (1-2l). Cracked 'til flow, left at 30%. Flow dropped off.
Raised braid out and checked. Nothing untoward. Scraped out bottom of MT, pushed brain back in gently then cleared again. No improvement.
Kicked the dog
Blew liquid back again, no improvement.
Left valve open 100% after clearing, same result.
On occasions, also had to clear some air that was caught in the pump from the suction hose (take my word for it when I say that air in the pump was not causing my problems, but this didn't help the matter)
Basically tried as many times as possible and the result was always that once a few hundred ml would go through (be it just dribbling or opened up all the way) the suction would be restricted and flow would drop off.
I also recirced for the batch sparge to ensure the wort was clear for the sparge and this seemed to work a lot better.

I might open up the pump and make sure everything's good in there for the sake of it. It doesn't seem to be flowing as much as it used to but it could be all in my head.


----------



## dent

I don't particularly see how milling it twice is going to make the particles substantially smaller - assuming you have a normal roller type mill.


----------



## Sambrew

Gday all, lots to catch up on in this thread! Just wondering what sort of (KW) element everyone is using in their setups as i have just decided to upgrade. Got a flattened stainless steel coil from a temprite in a CUB keg with a 2.8KW element at the moment and it doesn't heat particularly quickly, but the difference in water to beer out of the coil is at very worst 1.5 degrees. I've found a 4KW stainless 220V element but was wondering if anyone had run in to trouble overheating their mash with this size element. I Run a basic (Chinese) PID i got off ebay for $16 a few years ago- does ok. Any Ideas, comments or pearls of wisdom would be appreciated.


----------



## Yob

Have you got a circuit to run that element?


----------



## Sambrew

All the specs say it should run as my 2.8kw element does, doesn't draw too much more - if need be i'll set up a relay circuit. Just got buyers regret after thinking it may be too much element.


----------



## dent

I reckon if you think a relay will solve the difference between the current consumption requirements of a 4kW element vs a 2.8kW element, you shouldn't be involved in the wiring of either one.


----------



## Sambrew

10amps 220v which -will run on 240v... whats the hassle?


----------



## fraser_john

dent said:


> I reckon if you think a relay will solve the difference between the current consumption requirements of a 4kW element vs a 2.8kW element, you shouldn't be involved in the wiring of either one.


Spot on dent...

Sambrew,

P=V*I
2.8kW = 2800 watts
2800 = 240*I
I =11.67 amps, most house circuits are limited to 10amps, though will carry up to 15 depending on the circuit breaker.

4kW = 4000 watts
4000 = 240*I
I = 16.67 amps, you are going to need a dedicated 15 or 20 amp circuit to power that sucker!

I ran 5500 watt elements and 4500 watt elements for years in both my RIMS and my HERMS. I had dedicated 20amp outlets in the shed. I just built a new house and failed to spec that bit out so I now only run 2200W elements and though ramp times are somewhat slower, I can still get a brew done in just 4 hours.


----------



## mb-squared

ah, fraser-john beat me to it. yep, 

watts = volts * amps

4000 watts/240V = 16.7 amps, which in practice means 20amps. do you have a 20amp circuit?


----------



## Sambrew

ramp times are what I'm trying to achieve- i don't mash out, i sparge with water from HE. was trying to include a mash out and a step mash at some stage in the not too distant future. I'll have to look at the wiring - there is a three phase outlet in the shed, and I might make a call to my sparky mate who will work for beer...


----------



## Sambrew

not that i'd be using three phase in the brewery.


----------



## dent

Hopefully your mate will set you straight - you'd actually be much better off using the three phase with the appropriate element. It is much more likely your existing wiring will be able to handle it, and you can get more power besides - you can get 7kW with only 10A that way.


----------



## mxd

TheWiggman said:


> Did all that sorry gents, ended up back at square 1. Only think I haven't used is rice hulls. Never had this problem before too I might add.
> I've also used a high wheat % before (50%) with no issues.
> 
> ED: realised I didn't include all details to avoid TL;DR. Here are the basic methods used -
> 
> Pump off, stirred around braid, cleared as much as possible. Turned on pump, cracked 'til flow. Increased flow slightly after 1 min. Opened 80%. Came back after 20 mins, dribbling.
> As above but 45%. Same result after 2-3 mins
> As above but waited 2 mins before turning on pump.
> Losing patience with children
> Blew liquid back through braid (1-2l). Cracked 'til flow, left at 30%. Flow dropped off.
> Raised braid out and checked. Nothing untoward. Scraped out bottom of MT, pushed brain back in gently then cleared again. No improvement.
> Kicked the dog
> Blew liquid back again, no improvement.
> Left valve open 100% after clearing, same result.
> On occasions, also had to clear some air that was caught in the pump from the suction hose (take my word for it when I say that air in the pump was not causing my problems, but this didn't help the matter)
> Basically tried as many times as possible and the result was always that once a few hundred ml would go through (be it just dribbling or opened up all the way) the suction would be restricted and flow would drop off.
> I also recirced for the batch sparge to ensure the wort was clear for the sparge and this seemed to work a lot better.
> 
> I might open up the pump and make sure everything's good in there for the sake of it. It doesn't seem to be flowing as much as it used to but it could be all in my head.


I've only had 1 stuck sparge (it was a couple of weeks ago, it occurred on a barley wine after I gave it a stir) what I did was run water (tap at pressure) backwards through the pump into the MLT outlet, so that cleared the muck and all was good again.


----------



## nathanvonbeerenstein

Anyone ever ran an stc-1000 or any other probe into their Heat exchanger with a compression fitting like this? I use my Chiller as my herms coil and am tinkering with different ways of mounting it inline just before it reenters the MLT. Any possible problems?


----------



## mb-squared

I haven't done it, but from what I understand it is a pretty popular thing to do. This guy sells a bunch of these to do exactly what you are doing: http://www.brewershardware.com/CF1414.html


----------



## Spookhud




----------



## huez

I have the ones brewershardware sells. Never had an issue, no leaks even with the oring instead of using the actual compression part. (clove or olive??)


----------



## TidalPete

Strictly speaking, that's not a compression fitting OP but as long as you use fresh thread seal tape (gas\yellow is better IMHO) every time you screw it in you should be fine.

huez --- The original fix to replace an ill-fitting metric\imperial olive called for two O-rings. Probably not your concern though as you seem to have purchased said O-ring with the compression fitting?
Just mentioning this in case other brewers have compression fitting leak hassles?


----------



## nathanvonbeerenstein

Oh awesome! So Any known problems with accuracy or anything?


----------



## nathanvonbeerenstein

Its one of the brass compression fitting's sold at masters, has a little compression sleeve on the inside that compress's and seals around the probe. Airtight, but dont think its coming off any time soon without scratching it up pretty good! 
I think these fittings are commonly used for hydraulic lines and other small guage rigid tubing


----------



## huez

TidalPete said:


> huez --- The original fix to replace an ill-fitting metric\imperial olive called for two O-rings. Probably not your concern though as you seem to have purchased said O-ring with the compression fitting?
> Just mentioning this in case other brewers have compression fitting leak hassles?


Yep works a treat, think it's just one o-ring though. I just put the o-ring on the probe and finger tighten the fitting together. Makes it easy if i have a few probes going on and if i need to share one between say the herms and the chiller.

edit: correction it is 2 o-rings


----------



## TidalPete

I found no need for a compression fitting for the probe in my setup as the pic shows. Just used thread seal tape.
Everything was replaced with stainless years ago & the HE shrunk to the minimum. Also upgraded to yellow thread seal. 
Hope this helps?


----------



## drifting79




----------



## drifting79




----------



## drifting79




----------



## drifting79

Disregard where there hoses are going as I have just flushed them and am holing in the kettle you can see the temp probe thermowell on top of herms vessel


----------



## Sambrew

mb-squared said:


> ah, fraser-john beat me to it. yep,
> 
> watts = volts * amps
> 
> 4000 watts/240V = 16.7 amps, which in practice means 20amps. do you have a 20amp circuit?


Checked the wiring. Turns out I have 3phase and a 32 amp circuit in the shed. Bring on the 4kw element!! when it arrives.


----------



## Burt de Ernie

> Anyone ever ran an stc-1000 or any other probe into their Heat exchanger with a compression fitting like this? I use my Chiller as my herms coil and am tinkering with different ways of mounting it inline just before it reenters the MLT. Any possible problems?
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAussie Home Brewer1413342036.700639.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAussie Home Brewer1413342064.531984.jpg


Can you get the thread to seal?


----------



## drifting79

I would use a threaded t peice to plumb that in somehow I can't see any issues with that


----------



## nathanvonbeerenstein

Hi all, done a bit of searching but cant for the life of me find anything that address's my question..

I recently put together my ghettolicious herms system (see images). I'm using a pre wired stc-100 with the temperature probe mounted on the Heat exchange outlet which doubles as my immersion chiller (50ft of 1/2" copper). The worts pumped with a magnetic drive pump through insulated silicone lines into my igloo 10gal cooler. The stc 100 controls a 2400w element in the hlt where the water is recirculated through the whirlpool arm for consistent hlt temperatures.
My issue is though, that im getting swings as big as 2*c in either direction of my set mash temperature throughout the mash?!
The stc's hysteria is set to 0.1*c so shouldnt be allowing it to lag behind and overshoot as much as it does but here we are... How can i make it more stable and consistent?


----------



## drifting79

Hello Nathan the stc 1000 you are referring to which is the same as mine and many of the Brewers on here only switches on and off your element when the set temp is reached it does not allow for over shoot in temp from the element conduction and water heating and cooling mechanics this is the down fall of the stc 1000
If you require a more accurate method to hold an accurate set temp you will have to move to a PID controller method of controlling temps I have my stc set to .1 also but still I get a . 9 fluctuation my way to lower it to this is to insulate the herms vessel and coil to the extent that and cooling loss is negligible enabling me to hold a more consistent temp throughout the temp range 
PID controllers appear to be pretty easy to build but I have yet to master one although I have all the parts and buts and bobs to put one together 
For me the stc is easy cheap and works well for now 
I hope this helps but I am sure someone who knows more than me will be able to chime in more on the subject


----------



## Yob

Are you sure it's an stc? Mine can only be set to 0.3 for the lowest temp fluctuations. 

That looks to be a larger volume of water it's in, the more water, the bigger the lag and over shoot will be.


----------



## nathanvonbeerenstein

Thanks, is it possible to wire a pid in anything other than a less than portable control box? Something the size of the stc controller im currently using?

Thanks yob, ill thinking of using a smaller heat exchanger eventually but wouldnt a larger mass hold temperatures better and be less prone to large and fast fluctuations? Im starting to think the large volume of wort (2.5l) in the coil is to blame because of lag though


----------



## Camo6

There's a thread somewhere by Gava, I think, where he built a small pid controller with an SSR and heatsink. On phone so can't link atm.

I controlled my mash with an stc and only had swings of .3c either side but like Yob mentioned, my hex volume was a lot less.
Also, what flow rate are you using to recirc? Are you running the pump at full flow?


----------



## nathanvonbeerenstein

Camo6 said:


> There's a thread somewhere by Gava, I think, where he built a small pid controller with an SSR and heatsink. On phone so can't link atm.
> 
> I controlled my mash with an stc and only had swings of .3c either side but like Yob mentioned, my hex volume was a lot less.
> Also, what flow rate are you using to recirc? Are you running the pump at full flow?


Ill look into it thanks.

Mmm i expected better results myself but that was only the first run using it so ill have to work at it i guess
My pump is capable of 19L/min but i throttle it back a fair bit to avoid compacting the grainbed, couldnt put an accurate number but id say 3-9L/min


----------



## Yob

think of it like this, the larger the volume in the HEX, the larger the thermal mass, by the time your wort in the coil hits temp, the exchange fluid is (x) degrees hotter, this is where you get your over shoot, the larger the volume of the HEX fluid the longer it takes to get 'back' to your desired temp and the longer it takes to heat up again, hence the swing. With a smaller volume the easier it is to reach and maintain temps.

My first HEX was/is a 19lt BigW pot with an OTS immersion element, filled probably to about ~14L and a 3m coil but even with that I really only got an over shoot of about [SIZE=14pt]± [/SIZE]0.5'c, Ive since made a Birko 5L Urn version and while my ramp times are currently slower than the old version (Im yet to lag it so am losing heat to the atmosphere) the over/undershoot is less... only by [SIZE=14pt]± [/SIZE]0.2'c but thats what I was doing it for, the minor adjustment and to use less power in doing so... and it's a much blinger version of course 

Heres what I planned >HERE< 

and a picture of the built item in action..


----------



## drifting79

Hey yob what sort of mash tun manifold are you running and do you always work with the veil fabric as security against a stuck mash your setup look good


----------



## mb-squared

if you recycle the water in your HLT (as it looks like you do) and you put your temp probe on the ball valve coming out of the HLT, then you won't overshoot. the temp of your MT might lag behind that of the HLT a little (it will), but with a little experience you can figure out what temp to set your HLT at to achieve the MT temp you want. I run ~50L in my HLT and don't overshoot. and I'm using simple hysteresis too (because I'm controlling a gas valve, which doesn't like the rapid on/off of a PID)


----------



## TheWiggman

Sort-of Yob.
I'd say what's going on is that the temp of the mash tun is lagging the temp in the HLT (which it always will) and is playing 'catch up'. I'll use numbers to make it clearer.

MT temp = 60°C (temp of liquid coming out of the MT and going into the HEx)
HLT temp = 65°C
HEx out = 63°C

The HLT liquid for example will raise the temp of the MT liqour by 3°C as it goes through the heat exchanger. This will put it back into the MT at 63°C, which will eventually heat the mash tun by a few degrees.
As this heat is climbing so is the HLT until you reach your target of 65°C at the HEx out.
By this stage, the HLT may have reached 67°C and the heating element is cut off.
The HEx out temp will continue to rise after this until the grain bed temp drops sufficiently and the HEx out temp gets down to 65°C minus hysteresis.

You are right in that the overall energy/heat in the HLT then needs to be sucked away before the cycle can continue, and the larger this is the worse the overshoot will be.
And yes, a PID controller when set correctly will 100% take care of this issue.


----------



## nathanvonbeerenstein

I think youre very right and sort of what i suspected happening.
I think the over and undershooting is worse too since my mlt is a super effective igloo cooler so isnt losing any heat and is gaining heat very fast as well as the lag issues


----------



## TheWiggman

Matto, your 'control' method for the mash temp is to maintain the temp of the HLT yes? I'd recommend this for nathanvonbeerenstein too until he has PID. If you know the difference between the HLT and MT under steady state then you'll get much more steady control by regulating the HLT temp. Seems to made award winning beers too 

Also PID controllers have two output modes - digital or analogue/proprtional. Any reason you can't do 4-20mA proportional control on your burners? Even the cheapo Chinese ones have these features, or at the very least a $50 unit I wired up for a mate did.


----------



## nathanvonbeerenstein

Thanks fellas, ill plop the stc's probe into the HLT for todays watermelon wheat rather than the HEx outlet and account for the difference when heating up strike water!
MB, do you know off the top of your head what sort of difference you get with your system so that i kniw where to star adjusting from? Seems our setups are very similar


----------



## Yob

cooperville said:


> Hey yob what sort of mash tun manifold are you running and do you always work with the veil fabric as security against a stuck mash your setup look good


It's a 75l techni-ice type cooler.. Yep always use the sheet, nope never had a stuck mash when using this setup


----------



## TheWiggman

nathanvonbeerenstein said:


> Thanks, is it possible to wire a pid in anything other than a less than portable control box? Something the size of the stc controller im currently using?


Here's a control box I put together for a mate which is used for fridge control and his BIAB recirc -






Not that big, portable, and serves two purposes.


----------



## mb-squared

nathanvonbeerenstein said:


> Thanks fellas, ill plop the stc's probe into the HLT for todays watermelon wheat rather than the HEx outlet and account for the difference when heating up strike water!
> MB, do you know off the top of your head what sort of difference you get with your system so that i kniw where to star adjusting from? Seems our setups are very similar


my MT runs about .5C behind my HLT, but I run both my pumps wide open -- not initially, mind you. for the recirc on the MT, I start the flow very slow to let the grain bed settle, then ramp it up to wide open over ~10mins. best of luck with the brew today!


----------



## nathanvonbeerenstein

Thanks for all your help fellas! Changed it so that the STC-1000 monitors the hlt water instead of the HEx out and am getting much more stable temps with my system but the real issue i came across today was that my stc-100 controller out of the box was off by a whopping 2.5*c+! So my tried and true thermocouple and the temp controller were conflicting and never matched up, after a little calibration of the unit through the afjustment settings, im hitting the desired mash temp to 0.2 of a degree


----------



## rodj6

Hi, a little off topic, but I'm new to AG or myand building my 3v system. I found this SS tubing on eBay for my coil. Can anyone tell me if this will do the job. I plan on putting 15m of it coiled in my HLT.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-O-D-x-100-Stainless-Steel-Tubing-Coil-Type-316L-028-Wall/291267937158?_trksid=p2046732.c100040.m2060&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140107095009%26meid%3D15271c1b77034ced9df77ad65b5b92f0%26pid%3D100040%26prg%3D20140107095009%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D301169044272

Rod


----------



## mofox1

rodj6 said:


> Hi, a little off topic, but I'm new to AG or myand building my 3v system. I found this SS tubing on eBay for my coil. Can anyone tell me if this will do the job. I plan on putting 15m of it coiled in my HLT.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-O-D-x-100-Stainless-Steel-Tubing-Coil-Type-316L-028-Wall/291267937158?_trksid=p2046732.c100040.m2060&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140107095009%26meid%3D15271c1b77034ced9df77ad65b5b92f0%26pid%3D100040%26prg%3D20140107095009%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D301169044272
> 
> Rod


Hey mate - It'll work. I bought 50' of the same for my HLT (see my build build pics if you want).

BUT - it's hard work doing it right. First you need to "re-coil" the tube to fit your HLT basically just by winding it in tighter, thats the easy part. Then you need to bend the lead outs without kinking the tube. I ended up cutting off about a metre and a half due to my own f'ups.

By all means get it, but take it to a metal working place to get it bent nicely


----------



## The Judge

rodj6 said:


> Hi, a little off topic, but I'm new to AG or myand building my 3v system. I found this SS tubing on eBay for my coil. Can anyone tell me if this will do the job. I plan on putting 15m of it coiled in my HLT.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-O-D-x-100-Stainless-Steel-Tubing-Coil-Type-316L-028-Wall/291267937158?_trksid=p2046732.c100040.m2060&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140107095009%26meid%3D15271c1b77034ced9df77ad65b5b92f0%26pid%3D100040%26prg%3D20140107095009%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D301169044272
> 
> Rod


I'm a fan of copper tubing as you get significantly better heat transfer. That can mean less tubing required for the same heat exchange (decreasing your pressure drop and increasing flow through your HEX).


----------



## QldKev

Gryphon's HX can get away for just a couple of meters of stainless coil and keep up with a 3,000w element. Why go longer?


----------



## drifting79

I agree with Kev if your just starting out you might as well go cheaper and get the right setup from the start


----------



## fraser_john

Putrino said:


> I'm a fan of copper tubing as you get significantly better heat transfer. That can mean less tubing required for the same heat exchange (decreasing your pressure drop and increasing flow through your HEX).


Copper has better heat transfer properties yes, but, suffers under clean in place regimes where caustic or acids are used as it corrodes, oxidises if not used regularly etc.

My stainless hex has less than 6m of stainless 1/2" and ramps perfectly well even with just a 2400w element and I can throw whatever toxic mix of cleaning agents at it I want.


----------



## rodj6

Thanks for the advice. Mofox, your link took me somewhere else, but I would like to see your build pics. Could you have another go at that link please


----------



## mofox1

rodj6 said:


> Thanks for the advice. Mofox, your link took me somewhere else, but I would like to see your build pics. Could you have another go at that link please


Link was to the finished SS coil... shoulda worked maybe the keyboard-fu has lost its funk.

Here's the pics - head to my gallery pages for the bigger images. I'll up some more build pics after I add the water return and sight glass brackets.

Re-coiled, and in situ.


----------



## Drunk Az

Hi all,
I am currently in the process of designing a 50 liter 3 V HERMS system (with a separate heat exchanger - not using HLT as HEX) to replace my current 3 V system with a esky mash tun etc and have a couple of questions, I apologise if these questions have already been asked.

1/ Is it possible to use a cheap 2400W kettle as a HEX and simply drill a couple of holes in the lid for the coil tubing to pass through? This would be controlled via a thermocouple on the outlet tube just before it goes back into the mash tun.

2/ If the above idea doesn't work or I feel like making a more "bling" solution I was thinking of making a stainless steel HEX similar to the HERM-IT one I've seen online - question is; are these a sealed unit (thereby being slightly pressurized) or are they vented to atmosphere so they don't build up pressure but will loose a little water via evaporation. 

3/ What volume mash tun is required, I am assuming that around the 70 liter size would be right? 

Thanks in advance,
Cheers, Aaron.


----------



## Camo6

1) Yes, a lot of people are using a kettle with Nev's herm-it coil. It seems a 1.7L vessel is a suitable size for fast ramp times. If you haven't already, check out this thread for ideas. I used Nev's herm-it kit with thermowell for my build which was well priced IMO if you want to go all stainless. If your bending your own coil it might be a bit of a challenge getting a tight coil without packing with sand or similar.

2) I think Nev's SS HEX has a bleed hole in the lid but will let someone else confirm. I used a piece of 150mm SS pipe for mine with a 2200W kettle element. The lid just rests on the top held by the weight of the coil and I don't really lose anything to evaporation. The liquid in the HEX never gets to a boil unless I forget to turn it off with no flow through the coil.

3) Are you looking for 50L batches from your system? I use a 50L keggle for a MT and can push out 40 odd litres of 1050 gravity wort and still have heaps of space in the MT. I haven't tried a high gravity double batch in my system however. It certainly wouldn't hurt to go 70L for the mash tun. Of more importance to me is a big kettle to avoid boil overs or having to top up.

Good luck with your build


----------



## Exile

Camo6 said:


> 2) I think Nev's SS HEX has a bleed hole in the lid but will let someone else confirm. I used a piece of 150mm SS pipe for mine with a 2200W kettle element. The lid just rests on the top held by the weight of the coil and I don't really lose anything to evaporation. The liquid in the HEX never gets to a boil unless I forget to turn it off with no flow through the coil.



It has a bleed hole in the center


----------



## Drunk Az

Great, thanks for the advice and help guys.

I am looking to brew 50L batches and also want the flexibility of going reasonably high gravity if need be, I think I will go with a mash tun and a kettle of around the 70L mark. At this stage I hopefully going to be using an old 200L stainless steel hot water service that I was given for my HLT - never have too much hot water! 

I will post some pics when I finally finish it all.


----------



## Yob

BOOM!!

Nothing like an impending case swap to motivate you to finish those little projects


----------



## Mardoo

Oh now ain't that just darlin', wee little Birko playin' with the big boys. 

Beautiful piece of work Yob!

And now that I'm biting the HERMS bullet it looks like I need to sit down and read this thread. And others.

Wait a minute. There's a NICKELBACK ad at the bottom of the page. Do I hafta listen to Nickelback if I have a HERMS? Better look at the RIMS thread


----------



## Yob

No, pretty sure it should be tin Lizzy


----------



## zeggie

Yob said:


> DSC_0250.JPG
> BOOM!!
> Nothing like an impending case swap to motivate you to finish those little projects


What insulation is that Yob? Cheers


----------



## Yob

it's called thermo shield or some suce, from clarke rubber..

it aint cheap.. but it's the goods


----------



## GrumpyPaul

Yob said:


> DSC_0250.JPG
> 
> BOOM!!
> 
> Nothing like an impending case swap to motivate you to finish those little projects


Looks good Yob.

Does the insulation make that much difference???


----------



## zeggie

Just picked up a cheap near - new Breville 6l urn from eBay. Will be reading the rest of the rest of the thread for tips but reckon I will go the herm-it way to get it all going.


----------



## Yob

GrumpyPaul said:


> Looks good Yob.
> 
> Does the insulation make that much difference???


I expect so, I wasn't getting ramp times on par with my old one but as it's single walled, I expect I was loosing quite a bit to the atmosphere. 

Haven't used it yet, we'll find out at the swap.


----------



## mofox1

Yob said:


> it's called thermo shield or some suce, from clarke rubber..
> 
> it aint cheap.. but it's the goods


Formshield? I know Clarke Rubber sells formshield, which is a foil backed P.E. foam rated at up to 85c.

I was thinking of using it on my HLT (& mash tun when I upgrade from the esky), but I regularly get my HLT up to boiling for sparge. Bit worried that it will melt.

Then at the same time, I wrap an old camp mat around the boil kettle to achieve higher volume boils, and thats PE too.


----------



## Yob

Gotta be the same stuff, I've had the HLT up well over 80'c at times without issue


----------



## TheWiggman

Looks like the same stuff I use in my system. About $50 / linear metre, 1m wide? I spoke to the bloke behind the counter (not Clark Rubber) and he made a phone call confirming it was suitable for boiling temps. This doesn't make the person on the other end of the phone right though.


----------



## Yob

Dunno what the glue is on the back of it, but it's awesome.. Get it right.. Or else.


----------



## camelbak28

Hi Guys,
I have the same insulation on my Brau Clone (18 months or so) and have done over a dozen - hour and a half boils with no deterioration of the insulation ie melting / splitting - no effect. It didn't come with glue on the back of it when I purchased it, so can't speak for how long that will last. I just have heavy duty tape at the rear of mine securing so if need be for cleaning it can be easily removed


----------



## mofox1

TheWiggman said:


> Looks like the same stuff I use in my system. About $50 / linear metre, 1m wide? I spoke to the bloke behind the counter (not Clark Rubber) and he made a phone call confirming it was suitable for boiling temps. This doesn't make the person on the other end of the phone right though.


$50?! Nah, the clarke rubber one was much less IIRC... (yob?) about $27 or so. And they confirmed the 85 deg thing. I've been hunting around for a PU (foil or non-foil backed) foam for a while with no luck, but that's rated to well over 100. Maybe it was that.

Mostly the thing that worried me was that *some* PE foams will melt VERY close to 100. Very close... 105 deg.


----------



## Yob

God knows mate, I gave the man $70 and I've done the HLT and now the HEX, nor much left over


----------



## Tex083

I have the same thing on my MT, HEX and boiler haven't had an issue with melting or smelling like it's going to catch fire. It's an electric keggle.
Not cheap but worth it to get ramp times down.


----------



## TheWiggman

Tex083 said:


> "Not cheap but worth it..."


Like disconnects, hose, silicone, cleaners, taps, couplers, controllers, HERM-IT, elements, pots, stirplate, oxygen... damn this hobby, dead-set.


----------



## Camo6

TheWiggman said:


> Like disconnects, hose, silicone, cleaners, taps, couplers, controllers, HERM-IT, elements, pots, stirplate, oxygen... damn this hobby, dead-set.


Everytime my wife mentions how costly this hobby is I subtly suggest that I'd love to buy an old clunker, restore it and then stick a big ass Whipple on it and get it to run 9's. I then inform her how much my Mopar mad mates spend on their hobby and what they think a 'cheap' price is. Always seems to bring things back into perspective.


----------



## Cocko

*DRAINING YOUR COIL:*

Hey Hermers, I did my first brew on my new HERMS rig on the weekend - Nev's HX and coil and I cannot speak highly enough of its performance. By no means a sales pitch but after running a RIMS for a few years I can see how this system is an option - If you wanna weigh up the pros and cons of HERMS v RIMS I can give you the answers but NOT what I am asking here...

SO, You have done your brew, run some PBW through the coil, then some water and you remove and it to drain? Up ended it drains.. a little. I just gave it a 'swirl' and a lot of water came out, it even made the 'glugging' noise.....

So, I have an idea, my coil has cam locks at each end - what about I make a fitting - cam lock to c02 and blast out the coil with c02 - is anyone doing this?

How do you drain it? surely water or any liquid sitting stale in the coils is not good?

Thoughts?


----------



## Yob

My inlet is at the top, outlet at the bottom, gravity my friend..

Welcome to the club sir cocko


----------



## Camo6

I don't do it. Probably should. I always recirc with hot pbw after the mash. Have tried draining also flushing with compressed air but it never drains fully. I figure the same water also sits in my pumps after a brewday so I just make sure I recirc hot water before a batch and every few brews flush the system with 80c plus pbw liquor.


----------



## Yob

As a helpful to your situation
. Can you not get the hex to boiling? Wouldn't heat evaporate anything in the coil?


----------



## Camo6

I reckon a blast of co2 would help as long as you were careful. But if you go to this measure surely you should do the same to any part of the system where water can sit. (I say this because my pumps are fixed and retain some moisture after a brew)


----------



## Cocko

Hmm, thanks heaps guys, There is no other spot liquid could settle, my rig all breaks down and drains/flushes easily - just nervous about the coil.

I will run the fitting and repot back.

Sincerely, thank you for the replies....

Changing teams is a hard haul... but my PID runs it the same, so am a step ahead.

GO team herms. h34r:


----------



## Camo6

EAD turncoat.


----------



## Cocko

EAB Cam.. 

Rice? BBQ sauce? You name it.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

I just upend the thing and give it jiggle and the stuff comes out the end.
I do the same with my coil.
Nev


----------



## drifting79

I have been flushing with hot water I'm also using a counter flow chiller which I have been pumping through but no pbw I figure it's not much but my cfc is pretty long I'm interested to hear more on this Im not sure co2 is the solution for many brewers but would take much to incorporate either but is it needed ?


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

If you pull the coil out when hot and empty it, the remaining heat will dry it out , no need for C02 flush.
I have never had a problem.


----------



## TheWiggman

I just disconnect it, take it outside, put lips around the discharge then blow hard. Easy as bro.


----------



## Yob

...But what about the coil?


----------



## TheWiggman

I reworded that twice to try and minimise inyourendo


----------



## SmallFry

Have you tried turning it upside-down?


----------



## Cocko

Ok, had coil upside down draining for 2 days now and made a fitting for C02 blast.... Gave it a blast and got some more water out - not a lot a few dribbles but feel better, then after purged capped it with cam lock dust covers - so assume it is full of C02 for storage.

I think it would have dried right out with another day or 2, so really an unnecessary step but, hey, it cant hurt I guess...

Thanks for the help, all.

Cheers


----------



## Yob

I worry about little dribbles too..


----------



## Cocko

And I thought going HERMS was going to bring a lack of posting innuendoes.....


----------



## TheWiggman

"I'm sick of all these double entendres!"
"... I'd like to double her entendre"

Ahh the Todd.


----------



## Yob

A lady walks into a bar and asks for a quick f..K

So the bar man gives her one


----------



## Cocko

Yob walks up to Cocko's keezer and asks for an innuendo....

So Cocko gives him one.




I am here all week....


----------



## Yob

Yob laughed and said.. That's tiny..

When are you getting a bigger keezer. 

Boom tish


----------



## GrumpyPaul

Is that a keezer in your pocket?


Hello big boy.


----------



## QldKev

MODERATION: Let's get this back on topic, there are other threads for this


I pump my HERMS coil full of boiling water and then unplug the inlet, I find it draws the remaining water out of the system by itself.


----------



## Ditchnbeer

Hopefully on topic:

I want something cheap n simple to return wort from my HERMs coil back into my mash tun. I had a ring of silicone with holes drilled out but I have had recent channeling issues when sparging, I am sure the flow came out the lowest holes only, and I couldn't see the flow. Ideally I want something to direct flow nicely over the top of the mash and I can see whats going on.

If easier pls direct me to another post/thread. Thx.


----------



## Camo6

I had exactly the same arrangement on my MT. I punched all the holes on the outside and inside of ring so it didn't disturb the grain bed. Apart from pinching out the odd grain blockage it worked fine. I had some threaded rod to hold it off the bed and maintained an inch of fluid over the mash when sparging.
I now use an auto sparge that works great and uses a simple hose and float return onto the grain bed. I think Screwtop uses a fishing float with great success.
What false bottom are you using? What are the tun dimensions? Have you tried cutting the mash bed as some do? Are you sure its channeling and not some other efficiency issue?


----------



## TheWiggman

On the matter of sparging, how much time do you allow for what size brews? i.e. 45 mins for 23l into fermenter.


----------



## drifting79

On the subject of sparging I have just a length of copper in the top of my esky but with the herms I am a lot less concerned about channeling as I'm sure during the hour or so of recirculating all of the sugars are extracted , a well designed false bottom is a big advantage


----------



## TheWiggman

The thing to be worried about though cooperville is getting decent extracting during the sparge to avoid too low an SG during the sparge. If you are getting poor effeciency during the sparge but have good mash efficiency, then if you're not watching your pH closely you run the risk of astrigency and tannins late in the sparge process.
I asked about the timing of the sparge because a long slow sparge is likely to extract more sugars from the grains and give you a higher S.G. as you near preboil volume. A quick sparge will reduce the efficiency but more concerning is increasing your pH to bad territory. By memory this is about 6.0 pH. Keeping runnings above 1.010 helps to achieve this if not watching pH.


----------



## GrumpyPaul

I notice on a few of the pics posted here and I have seen a few other brewers rigs lately (at the Vic swap meet) and they often don't have a lid on the mash tun (esky) when using a HERMS

Given the heat is controlled by the HEX is it not so critical to keep the heat in?

My return feeds through a hole (with a grommet) in the centre of the lid - that way I the lid is closed and the heat stays in. However it is hard to how things are going, unless I lift the lid, which in turn lifts the return manifold.

My question is what's the greater benefit - keeping the heat in or being able to easily see what's going on (any channelling maybe)?


----------



## fraser_john

GrumpyPaul said:


> I notice on a few of the pics posted here and I have seen a few other brewers rigs lately (at the Vic swap meet) and they often don't have a lid on the mash tun (esky) when using a HERMS
> 
> Given the heat is controlled by the HEX is it not so critical to keep the heat in?
> 
> My return feeds through a hole (with a grommet) in the centre of the lid - that way I the lid is closed and the heat stays in. However it is hard to how things are going, unless I lift the lid, which in turn lifts the return manifold.
> 
> My question is what's the greater benefit - keeping the heat in or being able to easily see what's going on (any channelling maybe)?


Not sure what the advantage would be....I've never had a lid incorporated in my design..either as a RIMS in its earlier life nor as a HERMS configuration. The only advantage I suspect is prevention of heat loss and therefore electrical efficiency (or gas if gas fired).

I only poke/look at mine coz it is otherwise such a damn boring part of the process, unless I am taking a sample early in the process for pH adjustment.


----------



## fraser_john

cooperville said:


> On the subject of sparging I have just a length of copper in the top of my esky but with the herms I am a lot less concerned about channeling as I'm sure during the hour or so of recirculating all of the sugars are extracted , a well designed false bottom is a big advantage


Batch sparging eliminates the concern about chanelling and low pH issues as long as sparge water is properly acidified......saves 40 minutes on my brew day. If I am doing a high OG brew, split the sparge water into two and I do two batch sparges, keeps my efficiency above 78%.


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## TheWiggman

Definitely want to keep the lid on using HERMS. You will lose a lot of heat out of the mash tun without a lid which will make for slower ramp times and more energy use (among other things)


----------



## Camo6

GrumpyPaul said:


> I notice on a few of the pics posted here and I have seen a few other brewers rigs lately (at the Vic swap meet) and they often don't have a lid on the mash tun (esky) when using a HERMS
> 
> Given the heat is controlled by the HEX is it not so critical to keep the heat in?
> 
> My return feeds through a hole (with a grommet) in the centre of the lid - that way I the lid is closed and the heat stays in. However it is hard to how things are going, unless I lift the lid, which in turn lifts the return manifold.
> 
> My question is what's the greater benefit - keeping the heat in or being able to easily see what's going on (any channelling maybe)?


I recirc with a glass lid on though it steams up pretty quick. I don't do it to retain heat but more so to keep the cockroaches/earwigs/white tails out as they come out of the keggle rim when it starts to warm up (I brew down the back of the yard under a carport so lots of creepy crawlies)
I like to check the recirc a couple of times during the mash but the noise from the pump will tell me if the mash is stuck. I find it's more important to monitor the sparge level (not so critical now with the auto-sparge) so generally keep the lid off. By this time most of the bugs have evacuated anyway. (Handy brewing hint of the day - cockroaches float and can swim for ages)


----------



## Ditchnbeer

So my fly sparging times are around 35 mins, I know that's too quick but I couldn't slow down my green KK pump any further. I do have a nice insulated lid for my MT, and I do monitor & adjust pH of mash & sparge water. Today I am batch sparging as a test of my system, but still would like to know what auto sparge thingys people are using. Pics anyone?


----------



## Camo6

I'm using a Blichmann auto sparge from Full Pint. Works like a charm.


----------



## Mardoo

Hey Camo6 what's that silicone tube off the side with what looks like a steel ball on the end?


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## Ditchnbeer

Oooh dat auto sparge is sexy, luckily Christmas is coming.


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## Camo6

That's the return Mahdu. The plunger valve allows a slight flow past it (mainly so there's no serviceable seals to perish I think) but the hose is what returns the wort to the top of the mash. The smaller stainless float keeps the hose on top of the mash. I'll try and post a pic of it in action.


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## Camo6

Start of recirc - got a bit of a whirlpool going!


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## Cocko

I am using the Auto Sparge now, I could not be happier with it - not that riding ball valves was demanding, its just cool. B)

Pics of new herms set up soon! 

GO TEAM RIMS  HERMS!




massive thanks to Camo for the tips... he is an honourable hom.


----------



## drifting79

Hey camo how would that float valve work on a willow cooler I bet it makes your day a lot less stressful


----------



## Camo6

Yeah Coops, it'd work fine in a cooler but you'd probably need to extend the thread with a threaded socket to clear the thicker walls of the cooler.
Definitely adds less stress to brewday. Not that it was hard to fly sparge without it but now I don't have to watch it as closely.


And Cocko, don't ever ask me to help you jiggle your ballcock again. Especially after offering me a cheap rim job...


----------



## dblunn

Hi you Autosparge users, how does it cope with the initial flow of grain bits and pieces when you first start the HERMS recirc? I am considering getting one but I would like to know if I need to run two separate return paths, one for the HERMS and another for the clean sparge water.
Regards, Dave


----------



## Camo6

Hey Dave, no problems there. When recircing I set the float arm well above the mash so the weight holds the valve fully open. In this position there's almost no resistance so grain can't get caught up anywhere. The arm is held with a wingnut and super easy to adjust position.


----------



## drifting79

Is bat the blichmann model and where did you get her from ?


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## Camo6

Yep. Blichmann bling baby. Mentioned above but got it from Full Pint. No affiliation yada yada.


----------



## dblunn

Cheers Camo,
looks like it will be on my Christmas list, I already have a Therminator and would like a hop rocket some time down the track but the Autosparge looks like a very useful bit on Blichmann Bling (BB).
All the best, Dave


----------



## TheWiggman

I admit that if I was to upgrade anything in my brewery, the autosparge would be it. Such a good concept. The [fly] sparge process is the only part that requires a lot of attention, which isn't ideal when you have kids.

Only query I have with them is how easily they pull apart and/or impede cleaning. I have 36l MT which I carry 1 handed often and tend to knock it around a bit (it loves a bit of slap and tickle, gives my beers some character). Does the float arm come off easily and if the tun got dropped would it damage much apart from pride?


----------



## Camo6

Having a lazy day today Wiggman so happy to get some pics up and dust off the rig. Very easy to break down but this is the first time I've done it in maybe 8 or 9 brews and it was clean as a whistle. The valve is pretty rugged and the arm has 6mm threads so easily lengthened or shortened with a bit of SS all-thread. I'd hate to drop the float but reckon it could take a knock or two would just be a shame to dent it! Probably straying a bit off-topic as it's not really a HERMS device so happy for mods to move my posts if it's a problem.








A couple more pics and info in this thread.


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## fraser_john

Camo6 said:


> Having a lazy day today Wiggman so happy to get some pics up and dust off the rig. Very easy to break down but this is the first time I've done it in maybe 8 or 9 brews and it was clean as a whistle. The valve is pretty rugged and the arm has 6mm threads so easily lengthened or shortened with a bit of SS all-thread. I'd hate to drop the float but reckon it could take a knock or two would just be a shame to dent it! Probably straying a bit off-topic as it's not really a HERMS device so happy for mods to move my posts if it's a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20141207_150559 (1280x720).jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 20141207_150507 (1280x720).jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 20141207_150614 (1280x720).jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 20141207_150628 (1280x720).jpg
> 
> A couple more pics and info in this thread.


Could be worthwhile to either create an Auto Sparge thread or move it to one? Sure this is not the only piece of equipment people have to manage this part of all grain brewing.


----------



## MartinOC

I’ve just rebuilt my brewery after a 10-year hiaitus, embracing all of the technological innovations that I can afford in the meantime (previously gravity-fed)...Now I’m seeking feedback on what I’ve got & ways to improve.

I’ve had a few “thinking beers” along the way today & perhaps I’m over-thinking it....

Here’s a piccie of what I’ve got:




To explain:

Top-right – Active HLT – STC controlled. Recirculated by a LBP to avoid stratification.
Top-left – A pot that I’ve put there for the purposes of the photo, representing a passive HLT (possibly in the future active, STC controlled).
Centre – MLT – Temp-controlled by STC through the HERMS coil (I’ll get to PID control one of these days..).
Bottom-right – Primary boiler.
Bottom-left – Secondary boiler/holding tank/decoction boiler.

The intent of this is:

1. Double(+) batch in a single run;
2. Parti-gyle 1st/2nd runnings into separate boilers,
3. Decoctions in the 2nd boiler
4. Start a 2nd mash whilst the 1st is boiling, &/or
5. Reclaim heat energy from the immersion chiller back to the HLT to start another mash for back-to-back batches in a single day.

You’re brewers, right? So you know where I’m coming-from....

The only thing I’m not sure-of is where to put everything. Like I said, the piccie is a mock-up so far.

I’m pretty sure I SHOULD have the pump at the lowest point in the system, but if it’s below the MLT outlet, it will self-prime by gravity anyway & I’m using a March 809, so no problems pumping back upwards.

The only problems I see now are:

1. Access to the pump outlet valve (easily fixed)
2. Proximity of the hoses to a boiler (or both in full-tilt)

Feedback welcomed....!


----------



## boybrewer

Hi Martin ,

Like what you have done . How high is the top tier ?
Because you have two pumps you could probably lower it to below shoulder height , if you have the space you could make it longer and not higher , that way you don't have to stand on tippy toes to get to the top tier .Maybe have your HLT just above the MLT for gravity feed and you can pump everything else around your system . Like what you have now but lower and longer . With the BK's in the middle instead of underneath everything and the two HLT............... Hmmmmm now you have me thinking .

What about an L shape single tier that can hold 3pots on one side and 3 pots on the other ? Like 2 3V single tiers at right angles . Just a thought .


----------



## MartinOC

Hi BB. Thanks for the reply.

I deliberately went up rather than spread out, soas to reduce the overall footprint of the rig (it's in the carport of the shed, where we want to be able to park cars & I can still brew). I could potentially widen the whole thing (great idea, thanks!), but that's dependent on the lengths of handy-angle I can get my hands on & the load-bearing capacity across the available span (those 4-ring burners weigh a shitload on their own, let alone with 2 full boilers as well).

The top tier is 1.8m high (that's just the length the handy-angle came in at the time). I used to have the MLT higher (for direct gravity feed into the BK's), but I want to be able to man-handle it out for emptying & I'm not getting any younger!

I can see into the MLT where it is at the moment to monitor liquor levels during sparging (I'm a die-hard fly-sparger from way back). The only bugbear is having to use steps to see into the HLT when I'm filling it, but I can fix that with a sight-glass down the track.

Thanks, you've given me some more things to think about..


----------



## Camo6

Martin in regards to filling your HLTs you could always plumb in a couple of those cheap plastic ball-cock valves. A t piece to each hlt and you could fill both at the same time. I think wide eyed and legless mentioned having a heap of them lying around otherwise they're pretty cheap on evilbay. Rig looks great mate.


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## MartinOC

Slainte! Cam! Great idea, but that's down the track right now....

A lot of thought went into the design of this rig when I designed it 15+ years ago, when only gravity was available (ie. before pumps were dirt-cheap, like today..).

I'm an old fart  , being dragged, kicking & screaming into the 20th century (or should that be 21st??). Well, maybe not, 'cos I want to incorporate all the stuff that works better.

I KNOW that I don't NEED electronic gizmo's to make great beer ('been there, done that.. -_- ) 'cos that ability is all in your head.

I just wish a lot of new brewers could/would understand that...

I'll keep working on this until I get what I want (hopefully, before the July Bummock happens.... :chug: ).

Edit: I know that's not what folks reading this thread want to hear, but it's your head that makes beer, not equipment..


----------



## Camo6

Nothing fancy or electronic bout a ball cock valve. My toilets been brewing with one for yonks! 
Hear what you're saying though. I still think some of my favourite brews were out of a keggle and a bag. But my head also loves making the equipment as much as the beer.


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## Mr B

I wasnt interested in this hobby when I thought it was mixing a can of goop with water to make standard tasting beer with a nasty homebrew twang.

Then I found out about pumps, stainless, chemistry, recipes, timing, yeast, cleaning, sanitisation, gas burners, build design, brewrig options and much more.

Now I'm hooked.

And have made some mighty fine beers, peer reviewed as 'holy fark', and 'just thought i'd drop in'.

But I just BIAB so far.

And its all good, simple or complex.

(I'm going to herms soon, planning, planning..........)


----------



## Tahoose

Ok guys have read half of this thread but need to ask this before my mind gets ahead of me.

I'm basically looking to looking to move to a 150ltr brew system. 
The only things I don't have are; 
copper coil
Pump 
Couple of camlocks 

Now my biggest query is, how big should my coil be for a 25kg grain bill? Most of the info in this thread is saying 3m is a good length. But I'm thinking that given the size I'm going to need a bit more.


----------



## QldKev

I think the coil length will need to be in relation to the heating potential of the elements required. For a 150L brew (is that final vol?) you will need more than 2400w in the HERMS. So my guess would be a min of 4800w and 5m of coil. But the HERM-IT coil is only 3m, and being stainless has no where as good as a heat transfer coefficient as copper, people run 3,000w in them. Maybe with copper you could get away with 3m and 4800w?

edit.
Actually I was thinking of my sized system with 4800w. 4800w on your system would be more 0.5c per min.


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## mofox1

Double the tube length, double the power... Does that mean also double the flow rate? Always wanted a reason for a centre inlet chugger! 

Good thing I'm only doing up to 70's with my crappy little kaixin's!


----------



## Yob

mofox1 said:


> Always wanted a reason for a centre inlet chugger!


keep in mind the centre inlets head also fit March pumps... and also... 

you have plenty of reasons in that shed of yours... :super:


----------



## TheWiggman

Agree in principle with QldKev. Considering most do 23l batches and use a Chugger or Kaxian, I'd imagine to maintain the same performance you would need to scale up accordingly - by a factor of 5. That is if you want to do step mashing at a rate of 1°C/min.

Two things matter here in this order - amount of heat/energy input and conversely flow rate.
Upping the energy is all well and good but if you have a low flow you will apply a lot of heat to the wort in the coil, and won't be transferring much energy into the mash. You need lots of flow AND heat input to raise the temp of the mash bed.

If you don't want custom pumps this can be acheived by running a number of pumps in parallel with a few HERMS coils in parallel. Or, go a larger diameter single HERMS coils (i.e 3/4" instead of 1/2") and make it longer to accomodate for the reduced transfer efficiency of the larger diameter. Then plumb the parallel pumps into the one coil.

Gut feel tells me a minimim of 3 x March 809 pumps and 5m of 3/4" pipe, with 6000W of heat power. 
Might seem excessive but you are increasing the mash volume by a factor of 5 compared to single batches. If I were you I would go a single March 821 or similar running at the 45l/min mark. In reality it will do less than this due to pipe restictions but will be much easier to manage than a few individual pumps.


----------



## QldKev

I run a 112L batch (beer output) on my 3V. With a 2000w HERMS and 2400w Internal RIMS I can get just under 1c per min. That's just running a single standard March 809 with all valves fully open. Pushing that to 150L would be probably down to 0.5c per min.


----------



## TheWiggman

How far does the mash bed follow behind? i.e. difference between HERMS out and mash bed once target temp is hit at the HERMS.


----------



## Tahoose

Yes it will be 150ltrs post boil. I'm not concerned too much about if I get 1c/minute or .05c...

The system I have in mind is a longer coil and I plan to have a hi-flow rate. Will have a bypass return so the wort that doesn't filter through the grain bed will pass down straight back to the bottom of the manifold. In theory (in my head anyway), this along with a loose mash will not cause any grain bed compaction. 

The 2 things that I look to gain from the system are semi automation and better control over stepping up temperature rests. Also it will be a fire and forget system. It has fails safes in mind so you can mash in and walk away. I also have long mashes mind, maybe overnight like some of the braumiester guys do.

Maybe I'm living in my own little brewing dream world?? Hahaha

I'm hearby coining the term "Hi-Flow HERMs"

The full build won't be for a about 4 months (move into the new place) but I'll be thinking and tinkering until then.


----------



## QldKev

TheWiggman said:


> How far does the mash bed follow behind? i.e. difference between HERMS out and mash bed once target temp is hit at the HERMS.


I've only tested the HERMS outlet vs the bottom of the mash bad under the false bottom. On a 10c ramp I've seen up to 7c difference, but within 5mins or so it balances out.


----------



## Mardoo

So would there be an advantage to going by mash bed temperature for timing mash steps? It seems like that would make sense since the grain is what you want to convert. Brain hurt now.


----------



## Kingy

after reading the last few posts. if i was looking to end up with 66 litres into fermenter at end of brewing. A 5mt copper coil in an 8litre capacity unit with 2400watts would be better than a short stainless herm-it (nev ) in a pvc cylinder (2400watts also)


----------



## Cocko

Mardoo said:


> So would there be an advantage to going by mash bed temperature for timing mash steps? It seems like that would make sense since the grain is what you want to convert. Brain hurt now.



I wouldn't think so, being it is the 'lagging' temp - best take the reading at the hottest point is what I have learnedid and seems to produce the beers to the desired result.

It is not the physical 'grain that is converting but the enzyme activity, as far as I understand, this can happen in liquid too....

May be WAY off here but my understanding.


----------



## MartinOC

Mardoo said:


> So would there be an advantage to going by mash bed temperature for timing mash steps? It seems like that would make sense since the grain is what you want to convert. Brain hurt now.


Dear Mr Gumby (sorry, I just got the Almost Complete Monty Python collection for my birthday)..

The sugars & enzymes go into solution & get recirculated. The important temperature to monitor is at the exit of the HERMS coil (ie. the hottest point). The grain bed is inert & just provides the filter-bed & a thermal mass that buffers rapid temperature fluctuations.

Edit: Beaten to the punch by Cocko. "Sorry! I had my head stuck in the cupboard!"


----------



## TheWiggman

This thread is bloody massive now but I recall discussions about this issue earlier on. Here's my take now that I've done some reading and have more of an understanding of things. I think. 
The starch from your grain goes into solution and is converted to sugars within the solution. The temperature of the solution is what matters.
If you want to heat the mash (referring to liquid, not grains) then ideally you want it to be changed instantaneously. You could do this by taking a portion of the mash, heating it above your mash temp, then putting it back in the mash a la decoction. However this will push a portion of your starch well above sacc temps and cease conversion for that portion, assuming it got above 76°C. 
With HERMS you are heating the solution slowly hen trickling back into the pot. You don't want the temp to exceed your rest temp else you're converting above your desired temp. With a slow flow rate the mash tun temp will lag and will slowly convert in the mash at temps lower than desired. If this took long enough you should expect higher alpha amylase conversion than desired limiting the available starch for conversion at your target temp. 
Now I'm no brew guru but my research thus far lines up with that. I would personally favour a faster ramp than a slower one because ideally I think you'll have more control of step mashing.


----------



## Cocko

TheWiggman said:


> This thread is bloody massive now but I recall discussions about this issue earlier on. Here's my take now that I've done some reading and have more of an understanding of things. I think.
> The starch from your grain goes into solution and is converted to sugars within the solution. The temperature of the solution is what matters.
> If you want to heat the mash (referring to liquid, not grains) then ideally you want it to be changed instantaneously. You could do this by taking a portion of the mash, heating it above your mash temp, then putting it back in the mash a la decoction. However this will push a portion of your starch well above sacc temps and cease conversion for that portion, assuming it got above 76°C.
> With HERMS you are heating the solution slowly hen trickling back into the pot. You don't want the temp to exceed your rest temp else you're converting above your desired temp. With a slow flow rate the mash tun temp will lag and will slowly convert in the mash at temps lower than desired. If this took long enough you should expect higher alpha amylase conversion than desired limiting the available starch for conversion at your target temp.
> Now I'm no brew guru but my research thus far lines up with that. I would personally favour a faster ramp than a slower one because ideally I think you'll have more control of step mashing.



These are the exact words I would have used if I could use speaking n stuff...... ^^^ Well said Wiggers.

h34r:


----------



## MartinOC

Nailed it!


----------



## stux

Which leads me to suspect that like how BIAB has trouble scaling, HERMs might too, but for different reasons

There's gotta be a reason big breweries use heated mash tuns (steam jackets)


----------



## MastersBrewery

Stux said:


> Which leads me to suspect that like how BIAB has trouble scaling, HERMs might too, but for different reasons
> 
> There's gotta be a reason big breweries use heated mash tuns (steam jackets)


Actually a lot more use direct steam injection, which is an instant kick in heat with no chance of scorching (big reason for choosing herms) and with little actual water added to the mash. I have seen this done on a home brewing scale with a preasure cooker. Thinking about stepping larger batches, using herms and direct steam together could be the easier solution.

MB
Ed: With larger batches, the grain bed lags exponentially, even with increases in flow and heating I don't feel you'd keep up. Whilst thining the mash and proper procedures in setting the grain will mitigate stuck mashes, your pushing limits.


----------



## Mardoo

So then all that's happening in the grain bed is liquification of the starches and all the enzyme activity happens in the mashing liquor? That makes sense considering that the grain:water ratio affects enzyme efficiency.

Sorry for the derail, the differential in liquor and grain bed temperature just never occurred to me before since I'm only in the process of setting up my first HERMS. Thanks for the help guys.


----------



## TheWiggman

Not a derail at all, I think it's critical to know what's going on and is an issue unique to HERMS. For instance, I've been having stuck sparge issues recently (turns out my braid was blocked with filth) which has been limiting pumping rate. Result was a sloooooow step change in the MT and thus high attenuation on a handful of recipes.
I now have the recirc tap opened 100% following initially settling of the mash bed and don't touch it.


----------



## fraser_john

TheWiggman said:


> This thread is bloody massive now but I recall discussions about this issue earlier on. Here's my take now that I've done some reading and have more of an understanding of things. I think.
> The starch from your grain goes into solution and is converted to sugars within the solution. The temperature of the solution is what matters.
> If you want to heat the mash (referring to liquid, not grains) then ideally you want it to be changed instantaneously. You could do this by taking a portion of the mash, heating it above your mash temp, then putting it back in the mash a la decoction. However this will push a portion of your starch well above sacc temps and cease conversion for that portion, assuming it got above 76°C.
> With HERMS you are heating the solution slowly hen trickling back into the pot. You don't want the temp to exceed your rest temp else you're converting above your desired temp. With a slow flow rate the mash tun temp will lag and will slowly convert in the mash at temps lower than desired. If this took long enough you should expect higher alpha amylase conversion than desired limiting the available starch for conversion at your target temp.
> Now I'm no brew guru but my research thus far lines up with that. I would personally favour a faster ramp than a slower one because ideally I think you'll have more control of step mashing.


Yup, this is what happens.

Have to note that each HERMS configuration is different and it will take time and experimentation on your own HERMS system to find out what step temperatures and times result in the attenuation you are seeking.

I have two programs for Ales, two programs for Pils and one Weizen program in my Ramp/Soak PID. For the Ale/Pils, one of the programs results in a drier (well attenuated) beer, the other a sweeter beer.

I typically just use the drier program and add more crystal to each recipe as required.


----------



## Tahoose

Have had an idea for my Hi-Flow HERMs theory, it's basically a HLT/MT/HX.

Thinking big batch size here so for arguemets sake lets say that it's a 100ltr pot nested inside a 150 litre pot. 

The mash pot is the inner pot and containes; a domed false bottom, a threaded pipe wort overflow return and an outlet which drains to the pump. This sits off the base of the outside pot by 100mm.

The outside pot holds the inner pot, and the coil/wort return. It also has an element and a drain to the pump. 

The theory is simple: 

The mash drains and re-circulates through the pump and up the coil back into the top of the mash. The flow is high so whatever doesn't drain through the mash finds the point of least resistance being the "wort overflow return".

The element is controlled by either an stc-1000 or pid and heats a body of water that sits around the inner pot, this acts as a water jacket and heats the coil. 

At the end of the mash out the the wort will be drained to the brew kettle, the element switched off and the body of water in between the pots will become the sparge water, initial thought is batch sparge with a 10min recirculation. 

The mash will re-circulate of it's own accord and with a loose water to grain ratio stuck sparges will not happen. By design you're not expecting all of the of the wort to flow through the grain bed anyway. Different sized batches will be determined by the length of the wort overflow return. 

I anticipate that the HERMs crowd might say that the body of water is too much to heat up the coil properly. However think of it more as heating up the HLT full of sparge water rather than a dedicated HX. 

Because of the amount of space taken up by the inner pot I'm not sure what sort of volume the sparge water would be but I'm taking a punt at 20-25% of the total volume. 

So without a seperate HLT to sparge from this is looking more like a BIAB mash with a mini sparge.

Credit for inspiration see this thread.
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/83760-adding-recirculation-my-easy-urn-upgrade/#entry1240432


----------



## Tahoose

Sketch relating to previous post


----------



## Kingy

I was wondering before I drill the holes in my hex. if the inlet and outlet of the unit are both at the top (inlet top left, outlet top right) does all the liquid after brewing still drain out with the gravity if I was to drain at the lowest point of the pump. Or am i to try get the inlet at the bottom left and the outlet at the top right.
I think the latter is achievable but gunna be hard to get the copper to not touch the element or is that not a problem?


----------



## TheWiggman

Kingy, no not all the water will drain. For the most part it will (as having the pump below the coil will act like a siphon) but when the air begins to work up the pipe/coil under the water, some water will fall and thus air will bubble up. The liquid that falls will settle.


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## Tahoose

Well HERMs setup is halfway built. Won't be in a permanent position for a couple more months but should see a HERMs brew this week (fingers crossed)


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## j-dunn

Hi All.
I currently do BIAB. I have a 60 lt boil kettle with a basket for the bag. Simple and works a treat. I have about 20 brews down and most have been great.

I am wanting to make a HERMS using a 30lt Urn with an 18 mt coil in it. I have a temp control that I was going to have the probe in the mash tun.

Is a 30 lt HLT with the coil in it ok for the 60 lt MT and 60LT boiler? I will have a gas fired boil kettle .
cheers
Joe


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## razz

I had a 14 mt coil in a 40lt HLT Joe and that worked just fine. 18mtrs will be plenty, what size is the element?
With the placement of the probe in the mash tun, you will find that at the outlet of the herms return is a popular location.


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## TheWiggman

Are you looking at the best option or do you have the gear already? If you have the gear then yes it will work, but I wouldn't use all 18m nor all 30 litres. It'd be more efficient as a standalone HERMS if you only had 3m of copper in the bottom and only filled enough water to cover it.


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## j-dunn

Awesome Guys, thanks for the replies.

I do have the 30lt urn, 2000w element,actually the base of my "water purification plant", an amazing device that makes 90% Alch!

I also have the 2 x 60 lt pots for the boil kettle and mash tun.

Using less coil sounds the go!

Another question I had was will the recirculating mash and sparge water coming into the mash tun while at mash temperature effect the beer, ie hot and being oxygenated?

Cheers Again!


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## razz

Re the liquors coming in hot and potentially adding O2, plenty of talk on here about it over the years. Lots of brewers splashing back into the mash tun and still make great beer. If you want to, make sure the return has a piece of silicon hose on it so the liquor coming back into the mash can mix without splashing.


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## CanMan

Seems that the best place to monitor temperature is at the return to the mash tun. I am interested to know if the wort gets slightly hotter before if reaches the return is it going to effect the wort. From a scientific perspective when talking about a certain mash temperature is the temperature circulating over the grain what is required or the temperature the wort reaches at an given point in a system during the mash process.?


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## Yob

Measure at the HEX outlet, this is where the critical temperature is. Easiest point to measure also...


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## Mardoo

In designing a HEX is it important to have the copper coil surrounded on both sides by the HEX water? Seems like it should be. 

I'm working with a 3L HEX vessel and I can jam in more copper coil if I push it all the way out to the sides of the vessel. The vessel will be well insulated so heat loss to outside will be dramatically reduced. Logic and Adr_0's PID Modelling thread seem to say more coil good, less coil bad. But if by and large only one side of the coil is exposed to much thermal mass within the vessel it seems like ramp times could suffer. 

If I went with the copper coil pushed out to the sides of the vessel would a higher flow rate offset the difference? But then, if I'm having to offset what's the point?

Me brain be tellin' me shorter copper coil fully surrounded by the HEX water. What says the hive mind? This is my first HEX so I don't have any experience to back it up. Max batch size will be 45 litres, 2400w element, copper coil, 3 litre HEX volume.


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## MartinOC

In general, a smaller HEX vessel will give better "response" to the brewer's requests for changes in temperature (up or down). The more copper you have in that small vessel the better.

If you're insulating the HEX, then the fact that the coils are touching the sides shouldn't make much difference (within a poofteenth of SFA, since copper is a great conductor & will transfer it's incoming heat to the full circumference of the coil in about 12.6th of a Femtosecond*).

Conclusion: Just build it, brew with it & learn your system around it.

* Femtosecond = The time taken for a beam of light to cover 1 metre.....


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## Adr_0

Well, your area won't be cut in half but it will be cut down a bit, so I would try to keep it off the sides. Apparently you can fill your coil with sand and then you can hopefully get a tighter bending radius. If you can find a smaller bit of pipe this might help?

What sort of lengths are we talking here?


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## trevgale

I have a 2L HEX with about 2m of 1/2" stainless coil and a 3000W element, there is about 5mm clearance at the outside although other than being easier to remove I don't think the clearance would do much for performance as the enclosure is likely to be a similar temp. My HEX works well so I would expect your proposed system should be fine given the extra coil length and copper being a better conductor than stainless.


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## Screwtop

CanMan said:


> Seems that the best place to monitor temperature is at the return to the mash tun. I am interested to know if the wort gets slightly hotter before if reaches the return is it going to effect the wort. From a scientific perspective when talking about a certain mash temperature is the temperature circulating over the grain what is required or the temperature the wort reaches at an given point in a system during the mash process.?





Yob said:


> Measure at the HEX outlet, this is where the critical temperature is. Easiest point to measure also...


As Yob says the place to measure is at the hottest point in the closed system. HEX Wort out is that point, wort temp will not be higher anywhere else in the system. No point measuring in the Mash Tun if the wort temp is going to be higher somewhere else in the system. After you have been using your HERMS brewery for a while you will be able to dial in fermentability, maybe not according to traditional mash tun temps, but the temps which provide a certain body in 'your' beers using your system. Step mashes are also a cinch!

Screwy


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## Adr_0

The system will make delicious beer at some point regardless of how long the coil is, how powerful the element and how big the HEX is.

There is a lot to be said for understanding a few things and how they might influence time, ease of use, flexibility and predictability. It's not worth getting to the last 1% but if you're a few hundred % out to begin with it might be worth making that adjustment - if you understand why it's important, and that is important to you. A bit of thought in this stage can hopefully give you time when you're brewing, but don't do your head in thinking about it.


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## Mardoo

Adr_0 said:


> Well, your area won't be cut in half but it will be cut down a bit, so I would try to keep it off the sides. Apparently you can fill your coil with sand and then you can hopefully get a tighter bending radius. If you can find a smaller bit of pipe this might help?
> 
> What sort of lengths are we talking here?


I believe I can fit roughly 5 meters of coil into the vessel, but I lack the know-how to calculate the length of a vertical spiral, so I'm working from the notion of stacked circles of 1/2" copper tube minus a something-or-othereth of a meter. What I'm talking about is roughly the difference between a 5 meter coil and a 3.25 meter coil.

Pushing the coil all the way out to the edges of the vessel hadn't occurred to me until today and it seemed to have an inherent problem, so I asked. At the moment my question is more a thought problem than anything, and part of my overthinking-my-way-to-simplicity process. (Patented, yep  ) Martin, your poofteenth of SFA sounds reasonable (and your advice of build it and learn to brew on it is great) . In truth I think the deciding factor will likely be ease of coiling a 14 cm diameter coil over a 9cm diameter coil. We'll see what my experiments with some spare copper I have show. The 14cm will leave a bit of room between the coil and vessel edge, but not significant. Trevgale I'm guessing you're right about vessel being near the same temp as the contents anyway. And yes Adr_0, I do hope it will be making delicious beer somewhere along the way even if I don't have a longa, stronga coil. I certainly don't have the mathematical and other prowess to get down to the last 1%.

By the way, here's some very interesting advice about coiling copper filled with water, with an appearance by our very own Punkin. The real meat of the post is in the beige section halfway down. I'll report back if I give it a go.

Thanks for the input and suggestions and I'd love to hear any more folks have.


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## Adr_0

Looks like the difference between 3m and 5m is about 5min, vs 10min faster for 2m vs 3m. That's knocking a few % off the 5m coil by the way. So somewhere in the 3-4m range you're in the sweet spot. This is time for each 10°C step, so you're looking at saving maybe 30-50min in going from 2m to 3m, but can save maybe another 15-20min if you get to 5m. So basically somewhere in between will be sweet.

Blue - 2m; orange - 3m; red - 5m.




This was assuming 2400W element, 48L mash volume (mass actually - grain and water).

In each case though, the water still boils - for your mash to only get to 65°C (this will be more so when you mash out). You get much better heat transfer with boiling water, so it will only be for a short time - but it's important to make sure you don't overpressure your HEX, i.e. have a little vent/fill point on it.

A larger HEX won't necessarily help - i.e. the same length coil in a 5L HEX will just take longer to ramp, and will boil for longer. It does give you the opportunity to stuff more in though. I think you'll be right - just be conscious of boiling water.


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## Mardoo

Wow Adr_0, I really appreciate you plugging my figures into your model. I am much obliged sir. Where's the taking off hat and bowing icon when you need it?

I've already planned for a vent for the HEX, so the boiling isn't an issue pressure-wise, although water supply could be. Looks like I may need to look into that float valve after all


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## Adr_0

I don't think it will be too bad, but yes, you should think about it. 

Your pump rates through the coil will also help. This was all assuming 5lpm. If you can go higher than this, it will help your ramp times significantly.


----------



## Adr_0

So did an interesting comparison this morning. It's also becoming pretty obvious that PD control is best for HERMS, P is ok for BIAB/1V but you really need that D to make it as aggressive as possible without overshoot.

All of these are 2400W elements.

One guy has a kettle, with 1m coil and a 19lpm pump, into 25L worth of mash. P is 1, D is 125. This is the orange

Another example is a 42L HLT (HEX), 15m of copper coil and still a 19lpm pump. P is 3, D is 150. This is the blue line.

Red line is same as above but 7.2lpm pump, eg LBP.



Pretty well polar opposites of HERMS setups, with very different responses.

The three graphs are the HEX temperatures. Looks like the kettle boils... Good for a cup of tea?


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## Adr_0

And here's the 1.8L kettle, 1m copper pipe, 2400W element at 7lpm - blue, vs 19lpm orange, and 42L, 15m, 2400W 7lpm red:



They have each been roughly tuned, but you can see the difference 19lpm vs 7lpm makes.


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## Adr_0

I've done a bit of playing around over the last week or so. A few people have said that my calculated 'effectiveness' seemed a bit low as they would get better results than predicted. Turns out one of my factors is meant to be squared, which improved things a bit (added about 80% to some of the numbers).

The amount of heat that gets into your coil from the hot water in the HEX/HLT is the effectiveness. If there is a 30°C difference between the wort in the coil (coming in) and the hot water, the wort mass flow x heat capacity (3700J/kg.°C) you theoretically have a lot of power that can get into the wort, but the coil design (basically length and material) dictates how much of that potential gets in.




The reason I put this up is so that you can see the difference between copper and stainless, and realise as well that if you only have a metre or two, not a lot of power is actually getting into your wort. This means your HEX temp sits fairly high, you have overshoot potential, and your ramp rate will suffer. Seems like the sweet spot for value/space is in the 6-10m range, but obviously if you can get close to 80-90% and have the space/money, then I guess do it.

On overshoot, there seems to be a critical relationship between the kg of mash (i.e. the kg of water + kg of grain, not the weight or volume of your mash tun), the HEX volume and the coil length. *If your HEX volume is more than (roughly) 1/3 of your mash kg and your copper coil length in the HEX is (roughly) 2m or less - or your stainless coil in the HEX is 4m or less - your system will inherently overshoot*. Using the D will prevent this, but will slow your ramp rate and unfortunately using 'I' on any sort of tank temperature control will, by the nature of it, cause it to overshoot so you don't want to do this anyway. So while PD control of these sort of setups (e.g. 70L/70kg mash, 30L HEX, 2m copper coil) will prevent overshoot, it will do it at the expense of ramp rate so you should look into reducing your HEX volume and/or increasing your coil length if ramp rate is important to you.

You can also increase your element size and/or your ciruclation rate to improve your ramp rate, but will still have inherent overshoot.

If you have a 70kg mash, a 40L HEX and 10-12m of copper coil then you are sweet. Pick the biggest element you can, circulate as high as your mash tun geometry and false bottom will permit, and just use P control (e.g. 1-5), or P (1) with a bit of D (e.g. 25-150).

This is probably old news or uninteresting news for people with 20A circuits or with good setups, but if you want to try to keep on a 10A circuit and your have some options with coil length and HEX volume, hopefully you can squeeze more out without needing to upgrade your circuit. Or go RIMS.


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## idzy

When doing research, there were a few important principles that I discovered:
-Total volume of HEX internal and external should be small to decrease thermal mass, increase watt density, and therefore improve ramp times.
-The internal volume of your coil should be as close ratio to your external HEX vessel volume minus coil displacement to improve heat exchange efficiency. 
-The more total thermal mass and heating power not directed to the wort in your coil, the more likely you are to overshoot.


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## Mardoo

Idzy, can you clarify on your second point. I can't quite envision the equation you're describing.


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## Benn

E=MC2 - the something, something... :blink:


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## MastersBrewery

Mardoo he is saying the volume of water reqire to fill the hex vessel with the coil installed, should be as close to the amount of fluid the coil itself can hold. Now in most cases the hex vessel would be 2 to 3 times that of the coil in holding volume and that probably fine. But when your coil is holding a litre and it's being heat with 80 litres you will undoubtedly over shoot.


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## Adr_0

Hmmm... So in an 80L HEX, how's long would a 1/2" coil need to be to get 40L, ie 40L coil plus 40L water?


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## TheWiggman

To keep the engineers happy don't use the term thermal mass unless you are an HVAC technician - the correct term for what's being described is 'heat capacity'.

At risk of sounding like a dad I think we are overcomplicating concepts idzy 



idzy said:


> When doing research, there were a few important principles that I discovered:
> -Total volume of HEX internal and external should be small to decrease thermal mass, increase watt density, and therefore improve ramp times.
> Mostly right, but a roundabout way of saying it. The total volume of the HEx fluid should be small to minimise heat input to the HEx fluid. We want heat in the wort/coil (note difference between heat and temperature). Regarding Watt density are you referring to reducing coil volume within the HEx? This is not ideal. Maximise coil volume, minimise diameter.
> -The internal volume of your coil should be as close ratio to your external HEX vessel volume minus coil displacement to improve heat exchange efficiency.
> As above, volume of the HEx fluid should be minimised. This won't improve efficiency, it will improve effectiveness. The only way to improve efficiency is to improve insulation or use a more efficient element.
> -The more total thermal mass and heating power not directed to the wort in your coil, the more likely you are to overshoot.
> Truish, but sentence needs to be separated. Higher heat capacity (HEx volume) AND/OR other losses (poor insulation) will result in more energy not directed to wort. The former is more likely to lead to overshoot, the latter no.


Take a step back and think about the point of HERMS (general discussion, not directed at you idzy). Why do brewers use HERMS more than RIMS (where RIMS is wort direct-heated by an element)? Except in the case where we're utilising the HLT, it's because we're minimising the temperature the wort may be exposed to. In RIMS, even with a low density element the temperature on the surface of the element can be higher than the ideal step temperature under the wrong flow conditions. With HERMS, by using a coil as a heat exchanger, we have a buffer between the high surface temperature of the element and the wort. The larger the heat capacity of the HEx fluid, the larger the buffer and the more energy that needs to be put into the system before it results in a change in temperature of the wort.
Generally speaking - minimise heat capacity of the HEx such that scorching is avoided and you're maximising HERMS performance.



Adr_0 said:


> Pick the biggest element you can, circulate as high as your mash tun geometry and false bottom will permit, and just use P control (e.g. 1-5), or P (1) with a bit of D (e.g. 25-150).


In addition to minimising HEx volume, this line is all that really needs to be said.


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## Adr_0

I would add:
Stuff as much coil as you can into the HEX you have, to a certain level anyway. 

This means that the heat being put in from your element goes to the coil/wort rather than the water around the coil. This is done over the surface of the coil, so SA and material matters. 

Pump flow helps because you are not directly heating the mash, you rely on transferring heat from hot wort mixing through the mash. So the faster you can circulate (again as long as you avoid compressing your grain bed) this means that the Joules from the element get into the mash faster.


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## idzy

Mardoo said:


> Idzy, can you clarify on your second point. I can't quite envision the equation you're describing.


I am not very good with maths, but let me see how I go. There are four variables to consider:

Volume of displacement made by coil
Volume held by coil
Volume of HEX
Element size i.e. 2200w
*1. Volume of the displacement made by coil*
The displacement that the coil creates will give you your internal volume of the HEX - V = π r ^2 h
To determine this you take the Outside Diameter (OD) and the length of the coil (H). In the examples below, I have used 1/2 inch pipe or 12.7mm diameter or 6.35 radius.
For 5 metre coil, the displacement is Pi * (12.7/2) * 5 or V ≈ 633.38ml
For 8 metre coil, the displacement is Pi * (12.7/2) * 8 or V ≈ 1013.41ml
For 10 metre coil, the displacement is Pi * (12.7/2) * 10 or V ≈ 1266.76ml

*2. Volume held by coil*
Displacement volume is not coil volume, as the coil has walls and those walls don't hold liquid. To calculate, use the same methods as above, however use the Internal Diameter (ID) of the pipe and the length of the coil (H). In the examples below, I have used 1/2 inch pipe with 0.5mm walls, which gives a 11.7mm diameter or 5.85mm radius.
For 5 metre coil, the displacement is Pi * (11.7/2) * 5 or V ≈ 537.56ml
For 8 metre coil, the displacement is Pi * (11.7/2) * 8 or V ≈ 860.10ml
For 10 metre coil, the displacement is Pi * (11.7/2) * 10 or V ≈ 1075.13ml

*3. Volume of HEX*
Volume of HEX is usually just the size of the pot, but it is best to measure this, due to the displacement of your element (depending on it's size) and the fill height that you will be operating the HEX at. For example, my pot is approximately 11 litres, but my HEX volume is about 10 litres.

*Findings*
Once you have the above information, you can then model various designs using different size pots, different size elements and different size coils.
The figures that I like to use are:
*Heat exchange ratio*
How much potential is being used to heat the external volume vs. internal volume.
As I have a 10 litre HEX volume, which when displaced by 8 metres of coil becomes 9 litres.
Therefore my HEX ratio is approximately 9 litres to 1 litre, or 9:1

*Watt density / Heat capacity*
Given I am running a 2200w kettle element, this means that my watt density (WD) is total watts / volume of HEX or 2200watts / 10 = 220watts per litre. 
To determine the watt density the calculation is: watts per litre * (Volume held by coil / 1000ml)
For my HEX, for my 8 metre coil the WD is *189.22* or 220watts * (860.10/1000)
For a 5 metre coil the WD is *118* or 220watts * (537.56/1000)
For a 10 metre coil the WD is *236.52* or 220watts * (1075.13/1000)

Ideally you would stuff as much in as possible, but there are some practical limitations to this.



MastersBrewery said:


> Mardoo he is saying the volume of water reqire to fill the hex vessel with the coil installed, should be as close to the amount of fluid the coil itself can hold. Now in most cases the hex vessel would be 2 to 3 times that of the coil in holding volume and that probably fine. But when your coil is holding a litre and it's being heat with 80 litres you will undoubtedly over shoot.


This is exactly what I am saying and was a very important discovery. You will overshoot and your watt density will be very low.



Adr_0 said:


> Hmmm... So in an 80L HEX, how's long would a 1/2" coil need to be to get 40L, ie 40L coil plus 40L water?


372 metres. I haven't tried it, but doubt it would be possible.



TheWiggman said:


> To keep the engineers happy don't use the term thermal mass unless you are an HVAC technician - the correct term for what's being described is 'heat capacity'.
> 
> At risk of sounding like a dad I think we are overcomplicating concepts idzy
> 
> 
> Take a step back and think about the point of HERMS (general discussion, not directed at you idzy). Why do brewers use HERMS more than RIMS (where RIMS is wort direct-heated by an element)? Except in the case where we're utilising the HLT, it's because we're minimising the temperature the wort may be exposed to. In RIMS, even with a low density element the temperature on the surface of the element can be higher than the ideal step temperature under the wrong flow conditions. With HERMS, by using a coil as a heat exchanger, we have a buffer between the high surface temperature of the element and the wort. The larger the heat capacity of the HEx fluid, the larger the buffer and the more energy that needs to be put into the system before it results in a change in temperature of the wort.
> Generally speaking - minimise heat capacity of the HEx such that scorching is avoided and you're maximising HERMS performance.
> 
> 
> In addition to minimising HEx volume, this line is all that really needs to be said.


Thank you! I am not an engineer/mathematician and most terms used are probably wrong  I have tried to use simple to understand language as it is the way I understand it.

Also good to point out that when watt density is too high, you are back towards a RIMS type problem where you are scorching wort. The point of these calculations is that there is a spectrum between high watt density and low watt density. You want to avoid scorching, but you also don't want to ramp 1c every 4 minutes either, otherwise you will have a very lengthy brew day.

My post is lengthy and probably has loads of errors, please be gracious.


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## MastersBrewery

My favourite herms set up was a stainless convoluted counter flow chiller (avaliable from ibrew) with a continuous hot water system in loop, the system had two of these for a 1.5BBL mash tun. Your liquor to hex water ratio would have been pretty even.


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## TheWiggman

Adr_0 said:


> I would add:
> Stuff as much coil as you can into the HEX you have, tomatoes a certain level anyway.


Tomatoes for sure.

Look at your 4 points there though idzy:

Volume of displacement made by coil (FYI - displacement is volume)
Volume held by coil
Volume of HEX
Element size i.e. 2200w
If the statement was made 'minimise water volume in heat exchanger' and 'maintain flow to prevent scorching' then you will naturally have a high displacement made by the coil. No maths or anything required. Likewise for Adr_0's statement about cramming as much coil in as you can - by doing this you are minimising the volume in the heat exchanger. Only when you're trying to find ideal power, length, relationship between flow and frictional losses to heat transfer coefficients etc. does the maths need to come into play.
I'm just trying to simplify it.


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## Adr_0

TheWiggman said:


> Tomatoes for sure.
> 
> Look at your 4 points there though idzy:
> 
> Volume of displacement made by coil (FYI - displacement is volume)
> Volume held by coil
> Volume of HEX
> Element size i.e. 2200w
> If the statement was made 'minimise water volume in heat exchanger' and 'maintain flow to prevent scorching' then you will naturally have a high displacement made by the coil. No maths or anything required. Likewise for Adr_0's statement about cramming as much coil in as you can - by doing this you are minimising the volume in the heat exchanger. Only when you're trying to find ideal power, length, relationship between flow and frictional losses to heat transfer coefficients etc. does the maths need to come into play.
> I'm just trying to simplify it.


What I meant by that was, cram as many tomatoes into your HEX as possible. Add good beef or lamb mince, mushrooms, smoked paprika, thinly sliced zucchini, chicken stock, cayenne pepper, black pepper and salt to taste. Cook and reduce over 1-2hrs in parallel with your mash.

Don't you also-rans love autocorrect? I have some serious issues with mine...


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## Mardoo

Sort of the opposite of sous-vide.


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## idzy

TheWiggman said:


> Tomatoes for sure.
> 
> Look at your 4 points there though idzy:
> 
> Volume of displacement made by coil (FYI - displacement is volume)
> Volume held by coil
> Volume of HEX
> Element size i.e. 2200w
> If the statement was made 'minimise water volume in heat exchanger' and 'maintain flow to prevent scorching' then you will naturally have a high displacement made by the coil. No maths or anything required. Likewise for Adr_0's statement about cramming as much coil in as you can - by doing this you are minimising the volume in the heat exchanger. Only when you're trying to find ideal power, length, relationship between flow and frictional losses to heat transfer coefficients etc. does the maths need to come into play.
> I'm just trying to simplify it.


Not sure of your point or objective here...


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## TheWiggman

Minimise water volume in the heat exchanger, maximise flow, maintain flow to prevent scorching.

Point: _any_ change that is consistent with the above will improve performance for a given input power when using PID.


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## Camo6

TheWiggman said:


> I'm just trying to simplify it.[/font][/size]


An engineer just trying to simplify things? Now that's a juxtaposition if ever I've seen one!


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## idzy

TheWiggman said:


> Minimise water volume in the heat exchanger, maximise flow, maintain flow to prevent scorching.
> 
> Point: _any_ change that is consistent with the above will improve performance for a given input power when using PID.


This has nothing to do with anything that I said or the question asked. Flow =/ Coil.


Camo6 said:


> An engineer just trying to simplify things? Now that's a juxtaposition if ever I've seen one!


Too true.


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## TheWiggman

Who said I was an engineer?!
There's no cruel intent here, forgive me if I'm coming across the wrong way (and also can't see you asked a question). Not sure what =/ means either, not equal? Minimising water volume in a HERMS has everything to do with what you said except for the comments around power.

I'm trying to cover all bases with a simple statement. For example if you want to minimise water in a HERMS then you could -

Maintain HERMS volume and tube length but increase tube diameter
Maintain HERMS volume and tube length diameter but increase tube length
Maintain tube length and diameter, reduce vessel size
How each person goes about it is up to them, but the principle remains the same.


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## Adr_0

[Things] should be as simple as they need to be, but not simpler - Einstein 

I think people can fall onto some issues if they go down a rabbit hole and don't quite understand the mechanics, or lose sight of their original intent or what's important. 

While I'm against complication, if you really want to learn then things will get complicated, but it's important you just use the key points you have learned and see if there is a gap or opportunity in your system - if that's your goal or if that's important to you. Simple is best as long as you know why you're making decisions. 

I reckon it would be a nice easy/effective way to move to HERMS with a 2.4kW kettle and trying to stuff 2.5-4m of 3/8" copper coil in there. Cheap, simple, effective.

If you want to go with a big HEX/HLT because it's handy to have some strike water, aim for the 10-18m mark with 1/2" rather than the 2-5m mark.

I like getting value out of my element - a 2200W element should get something like 1.4°/min with a 25kg mash. In practice with my RIMS I get 1.1°/min with a 2200W. If I were getting 0.5-0.7°/min and was limited to 10A, I would be wondering what the hell's going on and what I can do about it... but I appreciate that might not be important for the next brewer.


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## Camo6

TheWiggman said:


> Who said I was an engineer?!


You don't need to my friend. Some things need not be spoken.
Although...an engineer who doesn't tell everyone he's an engineer is another juxtaposition in itself! 

(All tongue in cheek. I have engineer friends who are sometimes fun to be around.)

Oops, there I go again.


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## Camo6

Here's a couple of pics of my new 5star 3.6kW element mounted vertically in my HEX. Initial trials with water seem promising although the PID was overshooting a bit and will need fine tuning once I test with standard volumes.

The element is slightly off centre due to the existing hole being 40mm so comes pretty close to touching the coil. So close that it's kind of like a RIMS wearing a SS condom. I used silicone to help it seal so can't be bothered centralising it any better for now.

When ramping 50l from 12c to 65c the HEX water never boiled.


----------



## Mardoo

What's that HERMS housing Camo6?


----------



## Camo6

A retired 'essential oils' refinery a mates Dad buried in the backyard before he passed. Basically a bit of 150mm SS pipe with a collar soldered on. I cut it and welded the base a bit higher. Works a treat. 100mm pipe would probably be a better fit but I'm a tight arsed improviser!


----------



## Adr_0

That looks awesome, and saw the rest of your rig in the brew controller thread. 

How long is your coil, and is it stainless or copper? 

I would still recommend dropping the I to 0 regardless. You could probably drop the D as well to be honest, and just try the P at 100. If it overshoots, bring the D up to maybe 50-60. If it still overshoots, drop the P to 50-80. I have a feeling you will just get away with P though.


----------



## Camo6

Adr_0 said:


> That looks awesome, and saw the rest of your rig in the brew controller thread.
> 
> How long is your coil, and is it stainless or copper?
> 
> I would still recommend dropping the I to 0 regardless. You could probably drop the D as well to be honest, and just try the P at 100. If it overshoots, bring the D up to maybe 50-60. If it still overshoots, drop the P to 50-80. I have a feeling you will just get away with P though.


Cheers Adro, I was going to hit up your thread if there was no improvement next time I fired up the rig. Time is something I don't have much of ATM.

The coil is one of Nev's so only a couple of metres in a HEX of about 4-5 litres running a 3.6kW element.

Initially the PID was maintaining set point with a .5 degree swing either side. I ran the autotune feature but this didn't make much improvement so I manually set the PID values to P=300, I=0, D=25 as I'd read in your thread. This increased the overshoot and caused some erratic operation with the PID outputting while the temp was still above setpoint. I played about with the settings but didn't drop P as low as 100. In the end I ran another autotune and got back to where I started and figured I'd give it another go in a week or so.


----------



## Adr_0

Bugger, was hoping you had more than just a couple of metres (stainless?). Those settings (P 300) with that coil would not be pretty. Very sorry about that. 

Two options:
- try P 30-40, D 100; or
- lengthen your coil to 4-6m and try just P of 100.


----------



## Camo6

Adr_0 said:


> Bugger, was hoping you had more than just a couple of metres (stainless?). Those settings (P 300) with that coil would not be pretty. Very sorry about that.
> 
> Two options:
> - try P 30-40, D 100; or
> - lengthen your coil to 4-6m and try just P of 100.


Nothing to apologise for mate! Those settings were posted by another brewer with a similar setup so I used them as a starting point. Will have a try at those lowered settings next time. Cheers!


----------



## Moad

Hey guys I haven't read the whole thread so if someone has a guide please let me know.

I currently run a 3v with the coil in the HLT however find the ramp times to be poor, also a pain having to direct heat the MT when the HLT is set to sparge temp.

I'm looking to build a new HERMS setup to knock out 120L. It looks like I'll build a separate HERMS vessel to go 4v, how do I go about sizing it appropriately?


----------



## Tex N Oz

The most important factor is the conductivity and mass of your heat exchanger. I'm missing the "scorch" aspect of it though. Our median is water at atm pressure right?


----------



## Tex N Oz

Moad said:


> Hey guys I haven't read the whole thread so if someone has a guide please let me know.
> 
> I currently run a 3v with the coil in the HLT however find the ramp times to be poor, also a pain having to direct heat the MT when the HLT is set to sparge temp.
> 
> I'm looking to build a new HERMS setup to knock out 120L. It looks like I'll build a separate HERMS vessel to go 4v, how do I go about sizing it appropriately?


How many kW is your element and what volume of water is in your HLT?


----------



## Moad

Currently gas fired but rebuilding as electric with new pots. I think 100LT HLT will be plenty


----------



## Adr_0

Element sizing is pretty straightforward:
kg water x 71 x desired degrees/min = watts.
kg wort x 65 x desired degrees/min = watts. 
Obviously round up. See what the numbers come out at and what your circuits are capable of. The 71/65 are just simplified heat capacity/time factors. 

Keep in mind your HEX/coil is will erode that theoretical rate (because it's not 100% efficient, more like 20-60%), while you should be fairly close to hitting that rate with the water. So 1.5-2 is probably a good target. 

Ramp rates:
Faster with increased pump circulation 
Faster with greater coil length 
Faster with more powerful element 
Faster with reduced HEX volume*

I starred the last one because you can't shove 15m of coil in a 1.7L kettle. I would aim for as close to 10m as you can get, and see what size HEX you need. A couple of metres is really not enough.

If you can do this, you will find you will get good ramp rates and good stability.


----------



## TheWiggman

(had this sitting on the screen before Adr_0 replied, in interests of comparison)
For a 120l batch, I'll assume about that in the MT? You'll want a lot of heating power for decent ramps, so if going electric you're looking at some serious draw for a domestic system. On a standard 23l brew this normally corresponds to 15-18l of liquor in the MT for around 3.5-5kg of grain. 2400W is enough power for 1°C/s or thereabouts.
Scaling up, 5 times the volume means 5 times the power for the same rate of temp increase. So if you're looking for good ramp times I would suggest -

10kW of heating power
5m of coil or greater
Upgraded pump from the standard 809 or Chugger
With a lot of power you are going to generate a lot of heat if you can't keep the flow up through the coil. The longer the coil the more resistance to flow, but the more exposure to the HEx water so there is more to gain by making the coil longer.
And of course, minimise the liquid in the HERMS vessel.


----------



## Adr_0

TheWiggman raises a good point actually. 

If you had 80L of water and 100kg of mash, I guess you would need 3 phase or a 40A circuit.

You could gas boost of course, with a 2—ring or something similar and get away with a smaller element. Have it ticking along and the element provides 'trim' to the temperature. Not foolproof though. 

And yes, you might want as much coil as you can get your hands on and a big pump to back it up.


----------



## Mardoo

Would you want a wider-than-taller mash bed to deal with the increased flow rate? (E.G drawing from a greater surface area so better able to deal with a higher flow rate?)


----------



## Adr_0

Mardoo said:


> Would you want a wider-than-taller mash bed to deal with the increased flow rate? (E.G drawing from a greater surface area so better able to deal with a higher flow rate?)


Flippin A you do. Better for temp distribution too.


----------



## Tex N Oz

Adr_0 said:


> And yes, you might want as much coil as you can get your hands on and a big pump to back it up.


I can't see how a heat exchangers efficiency becomes greater with increased flow rates. Increase the velocity and you pass the apex of exchange rate for a given pressure drop due to laminar flow and then your efficiency has dropped out. This may work ok if your goal is to reduce the dt of your supply and return, but that's because you are working the edge of the curve of your heat exchanger's efficiency envelope.
It's my advice to pump the same volume at a lower velocity through a larger diameter heat exchanger with less thermal mass and greater conductivity.


----------



## Adr_0

Tex N Oz said:


> I can't see how a heat exchangers efficiency becomes greater with increased flow rates. Increase the velocity and you pass the apex of exchange rate for a given pressure drop due to laminar flow and then your efficiency has dropped out. This may work ok if your goal is to reduce the dt of your supply and return, but that's because you are working the edge of the curve of your heat exchanger's efficiency envelope.
> It's my advice to pump the same volume at a lower velocity through a larger diameter heat exchanger with less thermal mass and greater conductivity.


You've touched on a correct principle (why industrial heat exchangers have banks of tubes) and process gain (separate to controller gain) goes down with increasing flowrates. Unfortunately these factors are more than offset by the increased turnover in the mash (our mash ramp time directly hinges on this) and the increased power (heat power, not electrical) in the heat exchanger. 

So overall, higher flowrate = better ramp times. We did mention a large pump will be required. 

Trust me - I'm a vegan.


----------



## TheWiggman

Quite the opposite tex n oz, lower diameter is better for conductivity except in one particular case.
In these systems the flow shouldn't be laminar. I mean that practically, typical setups for home brew have a Re > 15000. The higher flow the better as this increases turbulence and thus the convection coefficient between the tube and liquid inside it.


----------



## Tex N Oz

Adr_0 said:


> You've touched on a correct principle (why industrial heat exchangers have banks of tubes) and process gain (separate to controller gain) goes down with increasing flowrates. Unfortunately these factors are more than offset by the increased turnover in the mash (our mash ramp time directly hinges on this) and the increased power (heat power, not electrical) in the heat exchanger.
> 
> So overall, higher flowrate = better ramp times. We did mention a large pump will be required.
> 
> Trust me - I'm a vegan.


I'm getting that it's all a matter of rapid, yet controllable heat exchange. It's kind of boggling my brain as I've never worked on this scale in either size or time.
I'm thinking a different approach all together. I've got a 5 kW steam boiler, heaps of small steam valves and I've got a few Innotech and Siemens controllers laying around. Real proportional controllers.
Funny thing is one of the Innotech controllers is from the Rio Tinto plant there in Gladstone. Smoked a $2 capacitor but since I'm not qualified to solder in a new one, they bought a new controller and I brought this one home for a quick rebuild. Anyway, I might blow the dust off those and see if I could weld up a steam injection mixing chamber. The problems I can see already are I'll have to balance the pump flow rate with the throughput of my filter bed and I'll have to find a valve with the right control authority for such a small mass of steam. Process control won't be an issue at all. I can't see I'd ever need more than 2 kg of steam for a 23 litre batch or double for a 50.
Not a problem since I'll have 5 kg @ 127°C. 
Now I've got visions of calandria driven boil kettle and glass filter beds. GEEZUS!!

I think the best place to start is designing a mash tun with HUGE filter bed surface area. Never be low on flow..

Don't trust me.... if it moves I'll eat it..


----------



## droid

Adr_0 said:


> And here's the 1.8L kettle, 1m copper pipe, 2400W element at 7lpm - blue, vs 19lpm orange, and 42L, 15m, 2400W 7lpm red:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.8L 7lpm 1.8L 19lpm 42L 7lpm.jpg
> 
> They have each been roughly tuned, but you can see the difference 19lpm vs 7lpm makes.


ok so here I am, initially thinking "should I even open this pic because what the hell will it all mean" I opened it and everything seems understandable, maybe i'm not so silly after-all
... until I tried to close the window. yep I just kept on clicking on your close window icon instead of mine...uhah some people you just cant reach


----------



## Mardoo

Tex just build yourself a steam jacketed mash tun. If you can't build the jacket just wrap a pot in 3/4" copper pipe.


----------



## Adr_0

If you can get it superheated (which 127°C would be, I guess) it would be a sweet oak barrel steriliser on the side.

I did steam injection once with my bro, maybe 12-13 years ago. Worked really well, not sure how even the mash temp was though, so would definitely put a recirc pump in there.


----------



## Tex N Oz

Mardoo said:


> Tex just build yourself a steam jacketed mash tun. If you can't build the jacket just wrap a pot in 3/4" copper pipe.


Well my theoretical design is just like a RIMS but with a massive flow rate (as high as I can get through the filter bed) and instead of a heating element, it will direct inject steam through a sintered stainless pipe into the wort..
This way I could make step adjustments extremely fast and accurate or very slow and accurate with never a chance of scorching the wort at 127°C. I've thought about the whole tun wrap or copper tubing but that adds another process. In order to modulate the temperature of steam, you have to reduce its pressure (to adjust temperature) and the condensate has to be sent back to the boiler via condensate return tanks and pumps.
IF I add a steam boil kettle then it's inevitable I'll add those and instead of direct steam injection, I'll have a steam HEX in the RIMS cylinder.
I keep going back to steam... then avoid its complications and go to electric or gas heating in my design, then back again to steam..... all professional breweries use steam so why couldn't I?
I originally took on the boiler to make a pasteurising machine and autoclave. Now it's looking like a multi-purpose heat source for all my processes. If I keep my boiler stand-alone and my condensate return traps and tanks, etc, stand-alone, it will be just that.



Adr_0 said:


> If you can get it superheated (which 127°C would be, I guess) it would be a sweet oak barrel steriliser on the side.
> 
> I did steam injection once with my bro, maybe 12-13 years ago. Worked really well, not sure how even the mash temp was though, so would definitely put a recirc pump in there.


Great minds think alike.. A steam autoclave was already on the menu..


----------



## TheWiggman

HURRY UP AND START A NEW THREAD WITH PICS


----------



## Mardoo

I'd love to go steam but $$ and my engineering abilities are lacking. I contemplated a reverse HERMS, circulating the hot water around the mash tun but finally decided to go with tried and true. I'll let the professionals build my steam jacketed tun, one day.


----------



## Moad

Would a 10L HEX vessel with 12m of coil (assuming I can fit it in) and a 2400w (3600w might be better) element be sufficient for ramping and step mashes with up to 90L mash? Will I need to directly heat the MT as well for ramping? 

I am also under the impressions I will need a bigger pump than the March 809? I use these on my current rig and get a decent flow rate.

I know there are lots of variables with the coil and hex size but any advice would be great.


----------



## QldKev

Moad said:


> Would a 10L HEX vessel with 12m of coil (assuming I can fit it in) and a 2400w (3600w might be better) element be sufficient for ramping and step mashes with up to 90L mash? Will I need to directly heat the MT as well for ramping?
> 
> I am also under the impressions I will need a bigger pump than the March 809? I use these on my current rig and get a decent flow rate.
> 
> I know there are lots of variables with the coil and hex size but any advice would be great.


I run a 112L (final vol) batch on my 3V. It's a 82L mash tun and 140L kettle (pre boil is very full). I run a March 809 and it flows enough for me. The pumps I brew with at work flow about the same as a March 809, and as you can imagine the brewery is a lot bigger than our systems. You need adequate flow, not monstrous flow. Your proposed HX vol and coil will be heaps / overkill for the system. I use the herm-it coil for mine which from memory is about 3m long in 2.5L water. I know people run 3600w into this system, and read once on here someone was using 4800w, but they never posted the outcome. Remember the shortest coil in the min amount of water that can do the job is best. 2400w will not be enough power to ramp a mash of that size in a decent timeframe. 3600w is about the min and would be a slow ramp that you would need to allow the time in the mash schedule, 4800w would be better but still on the slow side. On my 3V I did also run an 2400w internal rims element in my mash tun, but it has died and I don't plan on replacing it. For mine I'm looking at changing the house kettle element (approx 1850w) in my current herms and going to use possibly 4000w (2 x 2000w elements). I don't like to run 2400w elements as I use extension cords to get power to where I brew and I find the plugs overheat in them, and fuse the plug into the socket. I'm even possibly looking at going 3600w which will give me a slower ramp rate but makes the setup neat and clean. I'm thinking one of these elements from 5star, and wiring it as 2 x 1800w. But my mash is smaller than your 90L one.

I have a calculator on my website qldkev.net where you can plug in the figures and work out heating times. The perfect ramp rate is 1degree per minute.
So for your 90L mash
2400w would give you 0.38c per min
3600w would give you 0.59c per min
4800w would give you 0.77c per min
6000w would give you 1.00c per min
7200w would give you 1.11c per min

If you could get 6000w/7200w that would be great, but I think you could get away with 4800w and allow the ramp times into the mash schedule. Remember you are only ramping the wort through the heat exchanger, so in the real world the rise in temp of the wort exiting the herms will most likely rise in temp faster, and the mash bed will lag behind. The slower the flow through the HX the quicker you will see the outlet of the herms raise, but the more the mash bed will lag behind.

For coil length and water bath size, I think somewhere around 6m would be heaps.


----------



## RelaxedBrewer

QldKev said:


> I have a calculator on my website qldkev.net where you can plug in the figures and work out heating times. The perfect ramp rate is 1degree per minute.
> So for your 90L mash
> 2400w would give you 0.38c per min
> 3600w would give you 0.59c per min
> 4800w would give you 0.77c per min
> 6000w would give you 1.00c per min
> 7200w would give you 1.11c per min



Hi Kev,

Thanks for posting that, useful stuff. I assume your calculator is based off your HX system. I am trying to get my head around how the flow, volume, coil length/diameter and element wattage all work together. 

If I was to change the parameters would you be able to get a lower watt coil to heat faster? Say if we increased the volume of water in the HX and the length of the coil? Or are we limited by the actual heat output from the element and its ability to keep up with the heat transfer.

My large system has a 130L mash tun so I max out at about 100L. Looking at your calculator I should be able to use a 2400w element to accurately control a single infusion mash but not step. If I want to step I would need 6000 -7200w which is totally impractical for me.


----------



## QldKev

RelaxedBrewer said:


> Hi Kev,
> 
> Thanks for posting that, useful stuff. I assume your calculator is based off your HX system. I am trying to get my head around how the flow, volume, coil length/diameter and element wattage all work together.
> 
> If I was to change the parameters would you be able to get a lower watt coil to heat faster? Say if we increased the volume of water in the HX and the length of the coil? Or are we limited by the actual heat output from the element and its ability to keep up with the heat transfer.
> 
> My large system has a 130L mash tun so I max out at about 100L. Looking at your calculator I should be able to use a 2400w element to accurately control a single infusion mash but not step. If I want to step I would need 6000 -7200w which is totally impractical for me.


The calc is based on the energy required to heat water. It is not dependent on any specific system. It will work for any system. I plugged in 90L for the figures I quoted, as you mentioned it was Moad's mash size. Then I just used 10 degrees as the amount of temp change and divided the time taken by the 10 for degrees per minute. The same calc can be used to size heating elements in a HLT etc. It is the basic principle of working out how much energy we need to get into the wort to* heat all the wort and mash bed,* and not just the wort exiting the herms coil.

You want enough pipe surface area in the herms to be able exchange all the heat the elements are producing, otherwise the herms will boil. Increasing pipe length or diameter will give more surface area for heat transfer. So increasing pipe via length and diameter beyond the potential for the heaters is just going to introduce potential overshooting due to the increased volume of the water bath. A decent pid will smooth this out, but I would design the system to minimize it. Although I don't see a lot of double helix coils for a herms, if I was building one that's what I would use. I would just keep a little bit of spacing on the inner coil.

Flow through the herms will also effect the amount of time in contact with the heating. The slower the flow, the longer it has to transfer the heat. But a slower flow will mean the mash bed lags behind more. The faster the flow the more uniform the heat is in the mash bed. But we are limited to flow potential by false bottom designs. I'm probably lucky on my 3V that my false bottom allows me to run the pump with fully open valves. You could have a massive pump on the system, but without a false bottom to allow that flow it is a waste of time.

When ramping, we aim to keep the heating elements on full the entire time until the entire mash bed is virtually up to temp without over heating any of the wort. After all it is the element(s) that are producing the heat. If you think of a swimming pool and you had a really slow flow of hot water into it, it would take a very long time to heat up.

We tend to aim for a ramp rate of 1c per minute. But you don't have to achieve it. You would simply update your brew schedule to allow for the lower ramp rates. Obviously we are still mashing during the ramp times. So you would update the schedule to suit.

eg. just as an idea we could compare a schedule for a 1c per min Vs 0.5 per min (temps rounded to make maths easier)

*System 1 - 1c per min*
62 for 35mins
ramp to 72c over 10mins
72 for 20mins
ramp to 77c mash out over 5mins
hold mash out 5mins

total mash time 75mins (inc mash out)

*System 2 - 0.5c per min*
62 for 30mins (remove 5min from here for extra ramp up to 72 time)
ramp to 72c over 20mins
72 for 10mins (remove 10min as we allow time for ramp from 62 and also to 77 mash out)
ramp to 77c mash out over 10mins
hold mash out 5mins

total mash time 75mins (inc mash out)


You can see we start ramping temps earlier, but hit the next step later, so the enzyme activity is in theory averaged out. (even though activity at lower temps is technically slower) Then you would taste the beer to see if the desired beer profile was achieved and tweak the schedule to suit. My current 3V's rims element is dead, so with just the current herms I can only get about 0.4c per minute. My current mash spends a lot of time ramping as I start my mash at 55c, and I'm not in a hurry to update the herms at the moment.

I remember one guy on here was trying constant stepped mashes. He had a schedule something like, mash in at 55c and ramp to 77c over 75mins. You could even tweak it to 2 simple steps, like mash in at 62c and ramp to 72c over 60mins, and then a faster ramp to mash out or even skip mash out. You don't need a lot of power in the herms for this style.


----------



## Moad

Thanks Kev,

I'm a bit confused, you say the proposed 10L/12m/2400w would be overkill but then say the herm-it coil you use is sufficient. Do you only use it to hold temps and not ramp or are you OK with the slower ramp times?

Your volumes are pretty much what I am after so would be very interested to get some more info on your setup. I am still making my way through this thread to hopefully not repeating questions already answered before.

I had no idea what was involved in designing a HEX/HERMS


----------



## RelaxedBrewer

Once again thanks for a couple of fantastic posts Kev, really helpful.


----------



## Adr_0

Kev, that advice is bloody unreal.

For those interested, assuming the top of your coil is 0.5m above the suction of the pump:



These were using the pump curves from the March website, assuming 50Hz. Sure enough the 815 is a little over the top.

The 809-PL-HS/SS (which is probably the most popular beer pump) will do the job comfortably. That's 13.5lpm with a 4m coil, ~11lpm with an 8m coil and still 10lpm with a 12m coil. Ample either way.

A 10L HEX and 90L mash will be absolutely fine. But yeah assuming the mash kg x 65 rule, you need 5800W assuming 100% effectiveness of your coil to get 1°C/min, but realistically a coil will only be 40-60% effective.

I will try and do some simulations over the weekend sometime.


----------



## idzy

I can ramp with reasonable times with my HEX 2x2400w (one OTS) for a 400 litre MLT.


----------



## idzy

In my experience the biggest restriction when it comes to flow is creating a vacuum and compressing your grain bed. You cannot infinitely turn up your flow. Best way is as QLDKev has said. More power more coil less water.


----------



## Moad

Thanks for the replies and detailed explanations. Learnt a lot on this thread in the past few days and as always appreciate the knowledge shared


----------



## Adr_0

idzy said:


> In my experience the biggest restriction when it comes to flow is creating a vacuum and compressing your grain bed. You cannot infinitely turn up your flow. Best way is as QLDKev has said. More power more coil less water.


My point was more that the 809 will do everything comfortably...


----------



## Tex N Oz

Doesn't matter how you look at it, the maximum efficiency you can possibly get is:

4.186 J/g • K

Not accounting for any losses, which there is much.


----------



## QldKev

Moad said:


> Thanks Kev,
> 
> I'm a bit confused, you say the proposed 10L/12m/2400w would be overkill but then say the herm-it coil you use is sufficient. Do you only use it to hold temps and not ramp or are you OK with the slower ramp times?
> 
> Your volumes are pretty much what I am after so would be very interested to get some more info on your setup. I am still making my way through this thread to hopefully not repeating questions already answered before.
> 
> I had no idea what was involved in designing a HEX/HERMS


The 10L/12m is the overkill for 2400w. Using a stainless coil, which stainless is not as good of a conductor as copper, the hermit only uses ~3m in ~2.5L for 3600w (max know). The idea is to find the amount of heat energy (watts) you need for your volume of mash, and then build a coil/water bath to match.


----------



## TheWiggman

QldKev said:


> The idea is to find the amount of heat energy (watts) you need for your volume of mash, and then build a coil/water bath to match.


Sound advice. The element will inadvertently be heating the mash liquor via the HERMS. The more power, the quicker the whole volume can be heated provided your HERMS coil is designed appropriately.


----------



## Moad

There are 6kw camco elements, so 7m in minimum amount of water with this element looks the go.


----------



## mb-squared

hey Moad, I have a 5.5kw camco in my HLT, which is where I have my HEX, and I'm able to get ~1.5F/min (Chugger pump, 50L HLT, 30~40L Mash depending on the recipe). If you go with a dedicated vessel for your HEX, you'll be able to go even faster I presume.


----------



## Moad

Cheers mb, I guess it will depend on flow rate with a 6kw. Will have to make sure the MT false bottom setup is up to the task. I've been looking at stout tanks but they are pricey!


----------



## MastersBrewery

You know you could go twin hermits, I would think getting flow rates high enough to have both using all their power might be the trick. I've seen a few stout setups with twin recircs though the $ for something like that would very quicky add up.


----------



## QldKev

Moad said:


> There are 6kw camco elements, so 7m in minimum amount of water with this element looks the go.


Sounds awesome to me, even if you went anywhere from 7m up to 10m to be safe.


----------



## Moad

Thanks Kev, I've found lengths of 10 and 12m annealed copper. Would I beat best to go 12 or is 10 plenty in hour opinion?


----------



## Adr_0

So, the below is:
Blue - HLT/1V direct heating and well mixed. This represents the theoretical heat capacity/power curve, which is probably close to reality for a direct heated vessel.
Orange - 2m coil in 10L HEX, 13.5lpm
Red - 12m coil in 10L HEX, 10lpm




All used a 90L mash with a 7200W element.

Probably the most important thing to note is what the power does.
- For direct heating in the vessel, there is a constant demand on the power (blue line) and it drops off when it gets close to setpoint
- For the other two, once the coil outlet temp hits the setpoint (Coil T graph) the power drops off, so you are relying purely on turnover in the mash tun to bring your mash up
- For the short coil your HEX temp does go up a lot more (HEX T)

You could put a bigger element in manual for longer, but you would see your coil outlet temp go up a fair bit.

I will do some runs with different pump flowrates and different HEX volumes.


----------



## QldKev

Adr_0 that set of charts is awesome, really shows real world vs the theory. A couple of things I take from it. The longer coil hit the Coil T set point fastest, but the shorter coil was actually was slightly better in pushing the mash temp up. I guess that would be due to the increased flow rate due to the less amount of resistance. Thus transferring more heat into the wort, allowing the element to stay on longer. I would be interested in seeing runs with a 5m coil in 10L HEX, 12lpm? and also the 2m coil in 10L HEX, 13.5lpm run with 4800w I think the initial time will take longer before it switches off, but I wonder if it will effect the overall duration? Then another run with the 2m coil with a smaller water bath and 4800w.

Moad, after seeing Adr_0's real world numbers I'm thinking a shorter coil would be an option. If possible I would await Adr_0's testing as it is providing real world data.


----------



## idzy

Thanks Adr_0 - I have an 815 and an 809 and run neither at full flow, ever. I think we need some real world flow in these models too. Maybe choke down to 6-8lpm


----------



## Adr_0

idzy said:


> Thanks Adr_0 - I have an 815 and an 809 and run neither at full flow, ever. I think we need some real world flow in these models too. Maybe choke down to 6-8lpm


Well, I have a 25L rectangular mash tun with a good manifold and run 7lpm with no dramas. 67% wheat and no rice hulls and no loss of flow/bed compression, so if a mash tun is 4 x the size - as long as the draw off area increases as well - are you saying 13lpm isn't possible? It might be tough with a tall, narrow mash tun.


----------



## Moad

Interesting Adr thanks for that!
Are there better pumps for this application given flow rate is such an important variable


----------



## TheWiggman

Agreed Kev, the difference in rate would be due to the change in flow. Note the temp of the HEx in comparison - the shorter coil approached boiling. Something to be wary of if going too short. I'm backing if the flows were identical in the model the response would be identical, the only difference being the HEx liquid temp.


----------



## Adr_0

Moad said:


> Interesting Adr thanks for that!
> Are there better pumps for this application given flow rate is such an important variable


Idzy has a good point in that we can't assume maximum flow through the grain bed with 20kg of grain in the mash tun, but the point of this is to illustrate just how important flow is. So your mash tun design will be critical and you need to consider the best way to achieve that flow.

I also made a bit of a gaff with my March pump gpm numbers, so more accurate numbers are below and have included 2m and 5m coils:



What I have modelled is still 7200W (sorry Kev):
Blue is 7200W, 90L well mixed single vessel
Orange is 10L HEX, 2m coil, and 19lpm. P control only, gain of 2.
Red is a 7L HEX, 5m coil and 15lpm. P control only, gain of 1.



Notice the better power usage but at the expense of some overshoot in the coil temp.

And for the record, 7200W with a 90L x 65 (3800J/kg.K / 60s) is a 1.25°Cmin theoretical, but 0.5°C/min actual (takes 20min to get from 65 to 75).


----------



## Adr_0

Sorry, knew there was something fishy... the red line is a P of 1, and a 5min Integral term. I don't think you'd ever be able to get this with auto-tune as it will just use P, I, D to get the coil temp bang on. So I included a bit of built-in overshoot. The catch with this is that it's dicing with a pretty fine line, i.e. how much do you trust the model?


----------



## nala

Moad said:


> Interesting Adr thanks for that!
> Are there better pumps for this application given flow rate is such an important variable


Pump is almost erelevent if you don't have the perculation/flow through the grain bed,you can only pump at the rate of the flow.
My experience tells me that stuck mashes are mainly caused by pumping too fast and creating a compressed grain bed,no matter what size pump you have you will be controlled by wort flow through the grain bed.


----------



## billygoat

If you are getting a compacted grain bed due to pump suction maybe an underback could be useful. 
I've seen them used in some micros.


----------



## Moad

What about an agitated mash?


----------



## Adr_0

Maybe, but it would re-compress pretty quickly.

I think that a tall, narrow mash tun is asking for trouble, full stop. So you want a wide, flat (rectangular esky?) mash tun. If that's not an option multiple draw-off points is one option, as well as picking an operating point further back, i.e. more coil = less flow. You could take off 2-3 points and flow more sideways/diagonally through the mash. Obviously an occasional stir would help.

The reality is, as Tex n Oz said, you can't escape the energy requirement. If you want speed as well, then the power has to come from somewhere - either high turnover in the mash tun, or a high differential temperature which means your wort hovers a few degrees above setpoint for a while.


----------



## Adr_0

Adr_0 said:


> The reality is, as Tex n Oz said, you can't escape the energy requirement. If you want speed as well, then the power has to come from somewhere - either high turnover in the mash tun, or a high differential temperature which means your wort hovers a few degrees above setpoint for a while.


And that doesn't necessarily mean a bigger element, as once your coil outlet temp hits the setpoint the element starts to back off and it doesn't help your mash unless you have the flowrate to back it up:



Blue 4800W, orange 7200W, red 10000W

For a 90L mash, 6000W is the theoretical requirement for 1°C/min (90L x 65W/kg.°C) and I believe the next convenient size up is 7200W but that's still a lot of current.

If that's not possible, maybe gas boost with a 3600-4800W? 3-ring should give you 6-8kW. You would need to knock it off but it might be an option.

But every effort should be made to get that circulation up around 15-19lpm. It's a big batch, 120L, so if you are only getting 6-8lpm in a 90L mash it's going to take 10-15min just to do one circulation and your element is not going to be doing much.

Here is the same 2m coil in a 5L HEX, 7200W with flowrates of 10, 13 and 19lpm:



You can see which one has the best ramp time and gets the most value out of the element.


----------



## Moad

Gas isn't an option for me, the space I am building under the house doesn't have great ventilation. Basically a fan blowing air from one side of the room across and out a window. 

7200w shouldn't be an issue circuit wise, I'm not pulling much elsewhere on the main board and can get an electrician to put in a 30a circuit I'd say.

Would a herm-it coil and cyclinder with a 7200w element and a pump to achieve 15+ L/minute get me above .5? I need to go back over your graphs on the PC, mobile is a bit hard to see.


----------



## idzy

Problem with too wide is preferential channeling. Reliability for me is important and stuck mashes suck.


----------



## Moad

Is anyone using a 40 gallon stout MT with a hex that can chime in. It seems like the best thing for me to do is go for the biggest flow rate and dial it back if needed. 

The coil length being shorter means the hex will get hotter but the net effect is the same. I need the biggest flow rate I can get without creating a vacuum.

Stout actually have a wort grant as they call it which could be used to avoid the vaccuum effect.

So...what pump useable in brewing has a flow rate I'm looking for? Search time...

Edit: looks like the march 815 has 20l p minute flow rate, excluding reductions from the coil.


----------



## Adr_0

The graph on page 76 has the March 815 beer pump curve as well if you want it. 18lpm with a 4m coil pushing up 0.5m in height.

Did you have any other vessels in mind if you don't get a 40gal stout tank?


----------



## Moad

Thanks Adr, I;m on the laptop now so will go back and have a better look at those graphs.

I am open to ideas, I like the bottom draining stout tanks as they have the bits and pieces installed already. 

I'm not scared of some DIY but am a little time poor so don't mind paying a little extra to have the work done for me.

Edit:

I think I am going to go with the big w 7.6L pot with 5m x .5" of copper with a 6kW element for my HEX using a chugger pump to recirc. I can use the HEX as a HLT for a little sparging on my 1v if I use the pot rather than knock of a smaller chamber.

Do you just use compression fittings to go from the copper to bsp thread? I'll go through the side of the pot so will need to keep it sealed.


----------



## Moad

Sorry for double post... Looking at this coil http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/copper-pancake-coil-1-2-x-5M-roll-air-conditioning-pipe-tube-/171670481239?hash=item27f85ba957

Is that .5 inch OD? Then I use 1/2" ID compression fittings to get it to 1/2" BSP?


----------



## Tex N Oz

Moad said:


> Sorry for double post... Looking at this coil http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/copper-pancake-coil-1-2-x-5M-roll-air-conditioning-pipe-tube-/171670481239?hash=item27f85ba957
> 
> Is that .5 inch OD? Then I use 1/2" ID compression fittings to get it to 1/2" BSP?


Refrigeration piping is always measured OD and plumbing is measured ID so it will fit perfectly inside a 1/2" fitting.


----------



## Moad

Thanks Tex, Reece actually has the pipe cheaper. Confirmed it is 1/2" OD with them, they also have 1/2" compression > 1/2" BSP but not sure if they are stainless. Will go and check it out.

Hope I can get it into the 7.6L pot.


Edit: They weren't stainless at Reece and the annealed copper only comes in 18m coil BUT the guy cut me off 6-7m.

Picked up the compression from spvalves.com.au


----------



## Adr_0

Have you seen Husky's build?

I had the link but lost it... 

Anyway, he has welded a connection halfway up the vessel. This is actually used for a return, but I don't see why you couldn't use a similar concept for a draw-off, and use a basket (or solder some mesh). 

The purpose of this would be to draw off perpendicular from the bed and mostly used during temperature ramps. You would still draw off the bottom as well, but the actual flow with gravity should be reduced, allowing you to stay up at a high flow without compressing the bed too much.


----------



## Moad

Good idea and got me thinking, no reason the return couldn't be halfway to mix the grain bed around or would it simply move it to the other side of the pot?


----------



## Adr_0

I think you also want your draw-off halfway up,or 1/3 for eg.


----------



## Moad

makes sense I'll check out Husky's build. 

I posted this in my build thread but this might get some more views, chasing info on vessels now.

Looking at 150 BK, 120 MT and 100 HLT. I like the stout tanks and people seem happy with them but they will cost a bomb to get in...


----------



## Moad

Here is my HEX so far, I'm thinking I will cut one coils off the top to pull it in a bit tighter to give some more space between coil and pot and take it a little lower in the pot.

I need to find a short 6000w element or mount 3 x 2400w's.

The coil I got was super easy to bend, I bent it around a petrol tin with no sand or anything in it. No kinks or flat spots until I tried to bend 90 degrees to get to the fittings and realised I need elbows there.


----------



## Tex N Oz

Moad said:


> Here is my HEX so far, I'm thinking I will cut one coils off the top to pull it in a bit tighter to give some more space between coil and pot and take it a little lower in the pot.
> 
> I need to find a short 6000w element or mount 3 x 2400w's.
> 
> The coil I got was super easy to bend, I bent it around a petrol tin with no sand or anything in it. No kinks or flat spots until I tried to bend 90 degrees to get to the fittings and realised I need elbows there.


would it be possible to shorten the coil to half the height of the kettle and make a few more coils, each one a smaller diameter than the last, until you have 3 or 4 parallel coils? You could then get two larger pieces of copper pipe and use them as headers to attach all the coils to for a supply and return port. This would greatly reduce the volume of water in your kettle and increase the speed of heating.


----------



## Moad

I could cut it in half and use a T compression fitting. I think the flow rate is going to be the issue here as I will be running 6kw hopefully.


----------



## Tex N Oz

I believe the secret to success here is getting the volume of your HLT water as low as controllably possible, having as much flow through the HEX as possible and as much HEX surface area as possible.
If you get all these ducks in a row, you can focus step temperature control on your HLT and everything will fall in place. Unlike a RIMS you'd never exceed the step temperature in any part of the system.

I'm designing my system around a cylindrical filter (like a water filter), as they are much more efficient with a greater surface area than a bottom filter like we see most often in drip coffee filters. They have several times more surface area for the volume and the mash thickness is much less. I've always thought the current mash tun design was a bit archaic.


----------



## Adr_0

Tex N Oz said:


> Unlike a RIMS you'd never exceed the step temperature in any part of the system.


Uh-huh...


----------



## fraser_john

So I have been a HERMSer for years now, before that a RIMs user for years (thought I was going to say RIMer did'nt you!), but, on my current configuration, I have really been struggling with attenuation. I'd set my PID to mash through 63c to 65c for 90 minutes to try get a drier finish, a wort of OG 1.053 finishes at 1.020, it was getting pretty frustrating.

So Saturday making a weizen and I test the mash bed temp when the PID says it as mashing out at 78c, temp looks all settled and the mash bed is sitting at 83c! I calibrate the RTD probe at least once a year and it is always smack on 0c, so calibration is not the issue. If this happens at say mash temp of 64c, then it is actually at 69c, would certainly account for my attenuation problems.

What I don't get, is how can the bed be at 83c when the outlet of the HERMS is 78c, just does not seem possible. 

The only thing I "think" it could be is that the probe is not fully immersed in the wort as it comes out of the HERMS, maybe there is an air pocket in the T-fitting or something, or maybe the probe is actually touching the T-fitting on the far side and therefore not picking up the true temperature, dunno.

But, I am moving my temp probe into the mash tun when a bulkhead I ordered arrives, just to see what difference it makes.

Any one else have such odd results?


----------



## Yob

you tested that probe against another trusted thermometer?

Doesn't seem possible that the mash can be higher than the HEX temp :blink:


----------



## MastersBrewery

Always always always calibrate any temp probe within the temp range it will be used, if you aren't going to be cold crashing in the mash tun then there is no need for the probe to be accurate at those temps. Find a trusted thermo and re calibrate in the mid 60's. I note that this may not be the issue but a probe drifting 5 or 6c over 60 or 70 wouldn't be unheard of.


----------



## Adr_0

fraser_john said:


> The only thing I "think" it could be is that the probe is not fully immersed in the wort as it comes out of the HERMS, maybe there is an air pocket in the T-fitting or something, or maybe the probe is actually touching the T-fitting on the far side and therefore not picking up the true temperature, dunno.


That sounds plausible actually. I was very careful to solder my probe in such that the tip would be in the stream leaving my RIMS tube, and works a treat.

You might want to check the thermometer with the RTD in 60-70°C water. If there is a genuine gap in accuracy, are all three wires properly connected? It might be that you've bridged or lost connection on one of the bias connections or you have a loose/dirty connection.


----------



## TheWiggman

Agree with you fraser, there is 0% chance the wort can be a higher temp than the HERMS outlet. I think your suggestion as Adr_0 has backed up is likely. _*cue harp music...*_

With my HERMs I have a type K thermocouple which I insert into my coil each brewday. One day I accidentally didn't insert it all the way to the bottom of the thermowell and ended up with a few °C difference between mash temp and measured temp on the PID. I stuck it down further and bam, temp reading increased to match the mash temp.

Due to my [inaccurate] type K thermocouple I measure the mash temp independently of the HERMS temp, which I suggest you do for now as this will identify the differences. I rely on my thermapen only.

Set PID to 58°C for mash-in
At about 55°C, measure temp of liquid going _into_ the mash tun coming out the the HERMS return
Note difference and set PID accordingly (i.e. if return temp is 56°C but PID is reading 57°C, I'll drop PID by 1°C)
Leave for another 30 mins, check MT temp and when ok mash in
I'll then check again when I'm reaching sacc rest temp to make sure the difference is linear, which is typically is over 50 - 80°C. I have had it out by about 2°C at the worst.

Do this and I think you'll be cheering

Ed: best to check return flow temp under high flow conditions. If it's trickling out you'll lose some heat between your thermowell and MT, and end up compensating for that.


----------



## fraser_john

Adr_0 said:


> That sounds plausible actually. I was very careful to solder my probe in such that the tip would be in the stream leaving my RIMS tube, and works a treat.
> 
> You might want to check the thermometer with the RTD in 60-70°C water. If there is a genuine gap in accuracy, are all three wires properly connected? It might be that you've bridged or lost connection on one of the bias connections or you have a loose/dirty connection.


I have a two wire RTD and use thermocouple plugs/sockets on my system, so they are clamped well and truly in place, so should not be an issue there.

I think I'll pull the t-piece, ball valve section of the HERMS return tonight and have a good look what is going on, might be time to modify the layout just a little.

Plugs/sockets are panel mount like this.


----------



## MastersBrewery

Genuine RTD PT100's are a 3 wire device and the most accurate, so makes me wonder what thermocouple your using, this may go some way to explaining your issue.


----------



## fraser_john

MastersBrewery said:


> Genuine RTD PT100's are a 3 wire device and the most accurate, so makes me wonder what thermocouple your using, this may go some way to explaining your issue.


http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=20_15&products_id=96

RTD probes come in both two and three wire versions, two wire versions use the same set of wires for both excitation and measurement.

<edit> hmmm I note the following line in one of the Auberins manuals "for two wire RTD the wires should be connected to terminals 8 & 9. Jump a wire between terminals 9 & 10."

Makes me wonder if I missed that on my install?


----------



## Adr_0

An easy way to check accuracy (as Yob suggested) is to compare side-by-side in the same liquid. It will at least give you information: it is either comparable (within 1°C) or is not.

TheAuber controllers have different configurations for the type of probe you are using.

If the above all checks out you should look into correcting air pockets.


----------



## Adr_0

fraser_john said:


> http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=20_15&products_id=96
> 
> RTD probes come in both two and three wire versions, two wire versions use the same set of wires for both excitation and measurement.
> 
> <edit> hmmm I note the following line in one of the Auberins manuals "for two wire RTD the wires should be connected to terminals 8 & 9. Jump a wire between terminals 9 & 10."
> 
> Makes me wonder if I missed that on my install?


That would do it.


----------



## fraser_john

Adr_0 said:


> That would do it.


Yeah, I'll do a tear down tonight on the t-piece and investigate the wiring of the PIDs (both HLT & HERMS), just in case!


----------



## fraser_john

Heheh, don't I feel the fool..... been so long since I built this thing I forgot it was really K-type thermocouples I had, d'oh.

But that does not change a lot, pulled the T-piece off and definitely scope there for the probe to maybe not being in the full flow, it was entering at 45 degrees from vertical, so rotated the fitting an extra 45 degrees to make it parallel to the horizon, should not be an issue there.

Rechecked all wiring connections, all tight.

Rechecked sensor setting, Sn correctly set to 0.

Recalibrated, no issue.

Ran a new auto tune, with just water.

Right now PID says sensor 66.1c, process temp, water coming out of tube where it enters mash tun is 65.8, allowing for a little cooling in the line I guess and mash tun is at 65c.

Now, I know I have not done a fresh auto tune in a long time and I had reconfigured the system slightly, same HEX, but lines might be longer leading into the HEX intake, so maybe the PID values were screwed up and resulting in overshoot?

To be safe, ordered two 50mm three wire RTD probes off evil bay and will swap them all out when they arrive and retune, retest.

Looks ok for now though! Course, water is different to a full mash, might hit the auto tune again when I next dough in, just to be sure!

So note to all HERMS owners, make a small mod, don't forget to use the At setting to auto tune again!


----------



## Adr_0

Cool, good to hear!

Regarding the tuning, which probe is the element driven off, the return from the HERMS? If this is set to 64°C (but actual temperature is 69°C) it will continue to drive until the temperature leaving the HERMS coil is a solid ""64°C"". This would have explained why another thermometer saw 5-6°C higher. So it was controlling OK but there was a measurement error. As we all know it's not possible to 'heat' a 69°C mash tun with 64°C wort coming in.

Minor plumbing changes shouldn't need a re-tune. Theoretically, any time your water level in the HEX changes you need a re-tune; possibly the same with changes in pump flowrate; and changes in your mash tun volume (total grain + water). However if your system is inherantly pretty good, the numbers won't change much.


----------



## Adr_0

Tex N Oz said:


> I believe the secret to success here is getting the volume of your HLT water as low as controllably possible, having as much flow through the HEX as possible and as much HEX surface area as possible.
> If you get all these ducks in a row, you can focus step temperature control on your HLT and everything will fall in place. Unlike a RIMS you'd never exceed the step temperature in any part of the system.
> 
> I'm designing my system around a cylindrical filter (like a water filter), as they are much more efficient with a greater surface area than a bottom filter like we see most often in drip coffee filters. They have several times more surface area for the volume and the mash thickness is much less. I've always thought the current mash tun design was a bit archaic.


While I like what you're doing with your design principles, it's absolutely false to say temperatures exceed your step temperature in a RIMS setup. If you control off mash tun temperature, your temps will exceed step temperature whether you use RIMS or HERMS, and conversely, you won't get temps exceeding your step temperature if you control as close to the wort outlet (from whichever heat source you have). This is totally independent of RIMS vs HERMS vs BIAB/1V, and totally dependent on system layout.


----------



## TheWiggman

I'm assuming he's saying that the temp on the surface of the element in a RIMS will exceed the control temp. This is the case if you aren't careful but generally not a concern with a well-designed system. 
I'm not sure I'd be super-keen on the filter design Tex. I think it would be hard to design an appropriate filter that would be adequately submerged to provide the surface area you're after. It's doable, for sure, but industrially filter elements consume the majority of the volume in the housing (hence exceptional surface area, what with the voids and all) which would be awkward with a decent grain bill. The base of a pot is a decent enough amount of surface area in practice for mashing and considering how simple it is and there isn't a void that can be sucked dry, it's a tried and true concept.
HOWEVER...
Prove me wrong and make something out of the box.

Ed: I should also reiterate that it's the grains that do most of the filtering, not the false bottom.


----------



## Rosscoe

Hi all. A quick question if I can do so without provoking a flame war...

I was planning to use 1/2" S/S tube for my HEX. I've been reading a lot of pages of this thread though (massive as it is) with many suggesting copper is a much better conductor. I could be well and truly wrong, but I assumed that once the steel was up to temp it would behave the same after that, although maybe take a bit longer to get up to it. S/S has other obvious benefits as well, which is why I was leaning that way.

My question is, have some of you tried one material, then replaced it with the other and can comment on the difference you noticed?

Rosscoe


----------



## MastersBrewery

On a home brew scale it beggars belief that the SS v Copper argument should continually raise it's head.

If your getting the copper cheap ie free go for it

nuff said


----------



## dent

I've run both under near identical conditions. Copper is better, but not so you'd notice. Stick with whatever is easiest as suggested above, the whole heat conduction thing is a non issue.


----------



## Rosscoe

Thanks gents, I appreciate it. Puts my mind at ease Dent to know someone's tried both and noticed a negligible difference.


----------



## evoo4u

I'm setting up my HERMS for the first time, with an Auber 2352P (ramp/soak) controller, with 4.3 litres water covering 6m copper in the HEX with a 2200w element. Typical mashes will use 5 - 6 kg grain at 3:1.

I did a "dry run" today with plain water. Ramp time was a little better than 1C/minute. After stabilising at 65C, I started auto-tune. It set I(218), P(1650) & D(33). It overshot consistently by nearly 1.0C. It also re-set my t to 12, after I had previously set it to 2 (for an SSR).

Following the wealth of info & advice offered by Adr_0, I manually set I(0), P(700) & D(18). This seems to hold it to 65.1 +- 0.1, so that's not too shabby. [with t(2)]

I haven't measured the re-circulation rate I was using, but come the real brew, I'll set it as high as possible.

QUESTIONS:
With an actual mash, is it best to auto-tune again, or manually tweak the numbers I put in?
I've set Hy-1 (1), Hy-2 (1) & Hy (0.1) All Celsius. Are these reasonable numbers to use?


----------



## Adr_0

You are probably better off changing your D up or down depending on if it's too doughy (reduce or even set to 0) or overshoots a bit (increase, double or for starters).

As i think I've said before, auto tune algorithms aren't smart enough to recognise a non-self regulating process and eliminate the Integral term so you will pretty well always have sub-standard performance out of it. You're close - if not spot on now - so just adjust as needed. 

Your hysteresis alarms look ok. As i understand, the Hy value is not used when in PID control so where it is set now shouldn't make any difference... Could be wrong there though.


----------



## MastersBrewery

evoo4u said:


> I'm setting up my HERMS for the first time, with an Auber 2352P (ramp/soak) controller, with 4.3 litres water covering 6m copper in the HEX with a 2200w element. Typical mashes will use 5 - 6 kg grain at 3:1.
> 
> I did a "dry run" today with plain water. Ramp time was a little better than 1C/minute. After stabilising at 65C, I started auto-tune. It set I(218), P(1650) & D(33). It overshot consistently by nearly 1.0C. It also re-set my t to 12, after I had previously set it to 2 (for an SSR).
> 
> Following the wealth of info & advice offered by Adr_0, I manually set I(0), P(700) & D(18). This seems to hold it to 65.1 +- 0.1, so that's not too shabby. [with t(2)]
> 
> I haven't measured the re-circulation rate I was using, but come the real brew, I'll set it as high as possible.
> 
> QUESTIONS:
> With an actual mash, is it best to auto-tune again, or manually tweak the numbers I put in?
> I've set Hy-1 (1), Hy-2 (1) & Hy (0.1) All Celsius. Are these reasonable numbers to use?


Just remember to rest at dough in for five then set the grain bed with slow recirc before opening it right up.


----------



## Camo6

MastersBrewery said:


> Just remember to rest at dough in for five then set the grain bed with slow recirc before opening it right up.


+10 to this to avoid a stuck sparge or channeling.


----------



## evoo4u

Thanks for the heads-up guys. I'll have to teach myself to be a bit more 'courageous' when it comes to re-circulating, as up until now, just doing 1st runnings followed by a batch sparge, I've been very gingerly limiting output flow to the kettle to around 1 litre/minute (and that's with a BeerBelly false bottom too).

I guess experience will be a good teacher here, as to just how fast I can run the re-circ, after the initial settling-in period. I'll do another dry run now, noting the strength of the flow emerging from the holes in the copper manifold in the mash tun, and timing it to see just what, say, 5 litre/minute looks like.


----------



## Tahoose

Could be taken as controversial, but that's not the aim. 

I run my pump flat out with the tap fully open, from the start of the mash to the end. I do this everytime and have done a mash with 13% rye with no problems.

Mash ratio is 4ltrs/kg.
Crush size is 0.9mm 
False Bottom and mash tun lined with Swiss voile.
I have a "wort return pipe" which runs from the top of the mash tun to underneath the false bottom. If the wort is struggling to get through the grain bed it will find its way through this. 
This prevents the pump from ever running dry. 

Even with such a loose mash I get good clarity in the wort, mash efficiency is consistently 85%.

Edit: I do one batch sparge to make up my volume into the kettle.


----------



## mb-squared

I run my pump wide open as well (though I slowly ramp up to that after mashing in so as to avoid getting stuck -- might not be necessary) and I too get crystal clear wort with a mash efficiency of 85%. For my return from the HEX, I just use a simple hose that circles around the inside of the MT. It sits on top of the grain bed and creates a nice little whirlpool in there.


----------



## Tahoose

I think as long as your mash is loose enough you could probably open it up straight away. But that might depend on the configuration of you manifold/false bottom, how much liquid would sit down there, and how much liquid would sit inside your hoses when they are on. 

For example I think there is roughly 2.5 litres of dead space under my false bottom but there wouldn't be 2.5 litres in the hoses/pump/hex when I'm recirculating. 

I'd imagine if your manifold was a some braided SS hose and you had zero deadspace then this will most likely not work.


----------



## TheWiggman

Sure as hell doesn't work with my stainless braid. Sticks faster than you can say "is that mash stuck?"


----------



## Adr_0

Tahoose said:


> I think as long as your mash is loose enough you could probably open it up straight away. But that might depend on the configuration of you manifold/false bottom, how much liquid would sit down there, and how much liquid would sit inside your hoses when they are on.
> For example I think there is roughly 2.5 litres of dead space under my false bottom but there wouldn't be 2.5 litres in the hoses/pump/hex when I'm recirculating.
> I'd imagine if your manifold was a some braided SS hose and you had zero deadspace then this will most likely not work.


And bed loading, ie how many kg are on each square 10cm for example. Tall and narrow is easy for wort distribution but horrible due compaction and hence flowrate... And vice versa.

That's the starting point. You can squeeze more out with good wort collection but it's an uphill battle with a tall and narrow mash tun.


----------



## Adr_0

TheWiggman said:


> Sure as hell doesn't work with my stainless braid. Sticks faster than you can say "is that mash stuck?"


Ah man I'm disappointed in you!


----------



## mofox1

TheWiggman said:


> Sure as hell doesn't work with my stainless braid. Sticks faster than you can say "is that mash stuck?"


Confirmed.

*Edit: *One of next (planned) upgrades is a nice big falsie. Possibly in conjunction with a bigger mash tun.


----------



## Tahoose

Is have to confirm measurements, I'm rocking a 120ltr techni ice esky and I think the false bottom measures 56 x 34cm roughly. This can handle a 25kg mash no problems.


----------



## mofox1

Tahoose said:


> Is have to confirm measurements, I'm rocking a 120ltr techni ice esky and I think the false bottom measures 56 x 34cm roughly. This can handle a 25kg mash no problems.


I'll pick up this arvo


----------



## Tahoose

Haha it will be quite heavy this arvo going to knock out a 75ltr batch of session ale for my engagement party.


----------



## Camo6

Adr_0 said:


> And bed loading, ie how many kg are on each square 10cm for example. Tall and narrow is easy for wort distribution but horrible due compaction and hence flowrate... And vice versa.
> 
> That's the starting point. You can squeeze more out with good wort collection but it's an uphill battle with a tall and narrow mash tun.


This was the only drawback pushing a 50l keg mash tun for big batches. Too much weight per area to dump the liquor too quickly. Only had one or two stuck-ish recircs (using big rye or wheat bills) but this was enough for me to practice setting a 'settled' grain bed. I found the mash appeared to pull away from the edges of the tun and this always had me wondering about possible channeling. After a few minutes it's business as usual and full flow from the Kaixin.
I'd imagine Tahoose's larger surface area (and perhaps the voile?) would help negate this issue but can't confirm until he sends me a few litres of finished product for testing.


----------



## mofox1

Tahoose said:


> Haha it will be quite heavy this arvo going to knock out a 75ltr batch of session ale for my engagement party.


Congrats!


----------



## fraser_john

TheWiggman said:


> Sure as hell doesn't work with my stainless braid. Sticks faster than you can say "is that mash stuck?"


I use one of those 12" perforated domed false bottoms and ditto, stuck every time, I run my pump at about quarter speed and that works. Before the current false bottom I had a custom made one that was the same diameter as the keg I use for the mash tun, same problem.


----------



## Tahoose

What I'm suggesting is that of your 12" domed falsie was raised by a couple of inches then there would be acouple of litres below that line. Pair this with a loose mash and you could in theory run it fully open from the get go.


----------



## TheWiggman

Why would that make a difference Tahoose? The restriction through the false bottom is what would cause the stuck mash. I can't see the volume of liquid below it having any impact on flow restriction. What may assist is the small amount of suction head generated by the height of that liquid, because at the typical trickle flow rates when sparging there is essentially zero suction through the mash.
I think the fact you use a piece of voile would make a big difference.


----------



## jlmcgrath

Anyone using a 3 way ball valve on the inlet to their external herms? Seems like a good idea but not exactly sure why or when I would use it as I am still in the process of building my system. If it makes any difference, I will be fly sparging.


----------



## Camo6

jlmcgrath said:


> Anyone using a 3 way ball valve on the inlet to their external herms? Seems like a good idea but not exactly sure why or when I would use it as I am still in the process of building my system. If it makes any difference, I will be fly sparging.






I run one at the HEX inlet Jlmcgrath.
Basically, my HLT is the only vessel with a sight glass so I use this to fill the MT via the herms coil. Then I can set the tap to recirc the MT through the herms and bring to mash temps. This allows me to disconnect the HLT hose from the 3 way and recirc my HLT through the whirlpool inlet (I use two pumps in my system).
Once the mash is finished I can fly sparge from the HLT through the herms coil which flushes it of any wort. This is the only time which I have to disconnect the MT outlet hose to the kettle but I use a small bowl (SS of course!) to catch the drips.
There's more than one way to skin a cat but using a 3 way suits my setup ATM. Never need to disassemble it because it's all hot side. At about $50 they're not the cheapest option but can certainly make things easier.


----------



## Tahoose

I'm not really sure how to theorise it? I honestly do t think the Swiss voile helps in the this regard though. It just give me more piece of mind that I don't have bits of grain getting through into the pump and other parts of the system.

The overnight mash yielded very efficient brew, 91% I think. Ended up with an extra 10ltrs and 1:048 rather than 1:046.


----------



## TheWiggman

Hence why "I think..."
Try your next brew without the voile, make no other changes and see what happens. Please?


----------



## Tahoose

Probably won't be the next brew, as I'm on a schedule to get these two beers knocked out. 

However the one after that I'll give it a go, might be temping fate as the false bottom doesn't run flush to all of the edges. We'll see anyway.


----------



## TheWiggman

That's ok though, the pumps can handle a bit of product without hassle and eventually the grains/flour act as the filter anyway.


----------



## Rosscoe

Is anyone using the Tempmate instead if PID and if so, do you have any issues with overshoot? Also, can the difference setting also be set in 0.1 increments?


----------



## WillieP

4v, 2 pump, 1 LP Burner, with EHEX

Looking for some advice on a design. I would like to set up an Eherms with an LP BK burner. I don't know how to attach the very basic diagram I created. Sorry.

MT and HLT- 10 gal Igloo drink cooler
BK- 8 gal SS kettle
Ehex- 2 gal with 2000w 120v element
Main pump- MKII
2nd pump- little brown pump
(male QD on vessels and pumps, female QD on hoses)

Looking at a single tier with burner off to the side. Would like to run my theory of operation by you and see if there are issues...

1. Heat strike water in BK, when at temp, pump to MT. Set PID for first step and recirc to stabilize. Turn off pump and dough-in. Wait 10 min then start pump with valve closed and slowly open. Recirc (MT-pump-HEX-MT) for duration of mash increasing flow as able, step mash if things go right.

2. During mash, heat strike water, after mash is complete, change over tubing to pump strike water from BK to HLT.

3. To modified fly sparge, more tubing changes: HTL-LBP-HEX-AutoSparge-MT-PUMP-BK.

4. During Boil: When sparge is complete, empty and rinse MT, then recirc from HLT-LBP-HEX-MT-PUMP-HLT. As a means of heating cleaning water and rinsing the system.

This works in my head and on paper I guess. But I have no experience with pumps, recirculating, or Eherms, so anyone out there that is running something similar that would like to chime in it would be much appreciated!

4 hoses would be required to uses this system this way. It would seem that I should be able to add valves to decrease the amount of hose switching. I think it would help me to draw out each step separately to see if I can simplify the overall process.

PS. I thought of raising the HLT above the MLT and gravity feeding it, but for the price of a little brown pump I figured why not keep it on one level?

Thanks in advance,
Cheers!
Willie P


----------



## dblunn

Hi Willie,
consider hose clamps on the output of the main pump where it goes into the autosparge, the deadheading of the pump when the float shuts the flow off could cause a bit of a dribble without a clamp.
Dave


----------



## TheWiggman

WilleP, why not just turn the HERMS and pump on and let the HERMS heat the strike water? One transfer you don't have to worry about. 
I gravity feed from MT to kettle which means I don't need and extra pump. When the mash is done, suction of the pump goes from the MT to the HLT. I then run a hose from the MT to the kettle and begin sparging. If I was doing single tier I'd do it the same way but have a pump from MT to kettle. 
Make you you install a ball valve between the pump discharge and mash tun (best spot is on the mash tun in my opinion) and you aren't going with an autosparge.


----------



## WillieP

dblunn, Thanks for the tip.
TheWiggman, good point on heating of the strike water. How long would you guess it takes to heat a single batch (12.5 liters of strike) if I'm planning to use a 2000w element. (120v 20amp circuit over here) I've only heated with gas thus far.

I've got the system I want drawn out on paper, I would like to submitted here, but how to I attach a picture on this forum? I'd like for you all to give it the once over.

Cheers,
Willie P


----------



## Mardoo

Choose "more reply options" at the bottom right of the reply box. Once you do that another page will open. At the bottom left you'll see an "attach files" box. Click "browse" and choose the photo. Then click "Attach This File". You'll see a thumb of your file appear in the "attach files" box. Once you've done that put the cursor where in the text you want the file to appear. Then click the text "Add to Post".

You can use the "preview post" button at the bottom of the page to see how it will look. Then slap yourself on the forehead and say, "Thank god for transparent processes!"


----------



## TheWiggman

12.5 litres, 20 to 60°C, approximately 45 mins. The HERMS out will read strike temp earlier than the mash tun has reached that temp so make you're going off the temp of the strike water first up.


----------



## WillieP

I hope to have successfully added a simple diagram of my design. Thanks for the assist on that Mardoo.

Please assume a valve is closed unless told it is open. Yellow circles are quick disconnects. A dashed line indicates a hose that will need to be moved during brewing. Only V5 would be used to throttle flow, all other valves are either open or closed. Planning on P1 as a little brown pump and P2 to be MKII.

1. Add strike water to MLT. Set PID for first step and recirc till stable temp is reached. Flow path is MTL-V2-V8-P2-V5-V6-HEX-auto sparge-MLT.
Turn off pump and dough-in. Wait 10 min then start pump with V5 closed and slowly open. Recirc same flow path for duration of mash increasing flow as able, step mash if things go right.

2. During mash, heat sparge water in BK, after mash is complete, change over tubing to pump sparge water from BK to HLT. Flow path is BK-V3-V9-P2-V5-V6-V1-HLT

3. To modified fly sparge, more tubing changes (HTL-V1-P1-V4-HEX-auto sparge-MLT-V8-P2-V5-V7-BK).

Thanks for having a look at this, as I've mentioned I'm new to the pump/recirc/HERMS world and would like to get it right the first go round. Any input is welcome, good or bad.

Cheers,
Willie P

View attachment 86476


----------



## MastersBrewery

upsize the kettle


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## Mardoo

Or use it for your HLT and the 10 gallon for your kettle. But yeah, with a 10 gallon mash tun a 15-18 gallon boil kettle would be useful.


----------



## WillieP

Sorry I didn't note, both MLT and HLT are Igloo drink coolers.

I'm looking for a 1/2 barrel keg (15.5 gal) to turn in to a keggle. Then I could use the existing 8 gal BK as HLT since I have 2 burners.

Other than that, the theory of operation sound about right? I've thought about 3-way valves in place of V6-V7, and V8-V9 but I haven't priced out the difference yet.

Again Cheers!


----------



## Mardoo

Why so many valves? I guess a lot of us here just swap tubes over, and it looks like you're trying to avoid that. I'm genuinely curious.


----------



## WillieP

Mardoo,
Short answer, yes avoid hose changes.

Long answer:
I will need 5 hoses to brew this method, I would like QD's to be able to hang hoses vertically when not is use. This would be to promote drainage and drying. I would only need to make minor hose swaps, V7 to BK or BK to V9 depending on whether I'm going in or out of BK. However, if I am able to get a keggle for BK, as mentioned earlier, I could use existing 8 gal BK as direct fired HLT. This would also eliminate the hose swap from input of HEX to V1.

V1, V2, V3, and V5 are all required. Like I said V6-V7 and V8-V9 could be replace with 3-ways.

P1, P2, and V4-9 would be mounted to a portable rack that can be brought in the house (cold winters in Illinois). 

Again I'm a NOOB when it comes to this, I'm currently moving water with a hand dipper. B)

Open for input.
Cheers


----------



## mofox1

Are you trying to do too much at once, WillieP?

As Mardoo mentioned, that's a lot of valves... Anything in contact with wort you will want to be able to break down and clean periodically as the ball valves do accumulate crud inside - 3 piece 3 way is easiest but exy.

Best tip I could give is to start with the simplest, working solution that will allow you to build up towards your end goal.

In my case that was a esky (cooler) and stove pot, to an esky with two 88L pots, 15Amp elements and one pump (batch sparge, no recirc). That kept me going for a while...

Then for the HERMS upgrade I added a (Electric Brewery style) control panel, upped the elements to 22Amp, a coil in the HLT and a second pump (temp controlled recirc and fly sparge). And sight glasses... I like those 

The only things from my original build I no longer use are the 15amp elements (although these are now my backup elements) and a small control box to adjust the voltage being supplied to the element.

I went with camlock fittings as soon as I had the two pots, and haven't regretted it. They're a bit chunky, but work extremely well.

Good idea with the removable rack, my pump rack is also removable/invertible so my pumps can drain and dry.


----------



## TheWiggman

Apologies but gallons completely lose me and likely almost all other Aussie members, you might as well be reporting in cubic furlongs for mine. If you could stick to SI units it will make sense to countries outside of the US, Burma and Liberia.

I work on the principle that the HLT should be the same size as the kettle. My MLT ends up being the least-filled vessel, so I'd swap the MLT and kettle around if you can.

Regarding valves, sparging, swapping etc. I reckon as above it's too complicated. I went through a few iterations and if you're prepared to swap hoses, I'm convinced my arrangement is the simplest on a 2 tier system HERMS. This is it mash phase -







Pretty straightforward. After that, I reconnect the pump suction to the HLT and run a new hose to the boil kettle -






Cons are that I need to lift the kettle using my almighty strength so that I can drain it to a cube/fermenter. That's ok in my sprightly thirties but when I'm older I'd likely have a hoist or similar to raise (or a Braumeister h34r: ). If you count my valves I have 4 in total and have complete control of the system. Also note I only have 1 pump.
If you want to do no swapping at all, I'd replace the MLT drain with a 3 way valve and install an addition 3 way valve on teh pump suction. Run a hose from the HLT to the pump valve.

Of course you can skin your own cat your way but that to me is the lowest cost and simplest solution for this setup.


----------



## mb-squared

TheWiggman said:


> Apologies but gallons completely lose me and likely almost all other Aussie members, you might as well be reporting in cubic furlongs for mine. If you could stick to SI units it will make sense to countries outside of the US, Burma and Liberia.


relax big fella, units are arbitrary and easily translated. some prefer gallons, some prefer litres. your preferred system might be better, but no need to scold those who prefer a different set of arbitrary units. if you're lost, try this: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=1+gallon+in+litres


----------



## TheWiggman

Scold, hardly! You wait until you hear me scald. I'm adept with calculators and search engines but I shouldn't need to convert. A preference is one this but this is an Aussie website regardless of where it's hosted, and hence we should stick to SI units.


----------



## WillieP

mofox1 and TheWiggman, thanks for your feedback.
mofox1,
Trying to do to much? Without a doubt! What I have drawn up would be the long term, down the road
type a thing. One reason the cost, and also I will grow the system slowly to see what I like and what
works for me. First off I will add a pump and get used to recirculating, and maybe whirl pooling. Then I would like to add the EHEX and PID controller.
TheWiggman,
Firstly, I agree with you that I should have converted from Gal to Liters, I will in the future refrain from using cubic furlongs, fathoms, or fortnights!
Thanks for posting photos of your system, that helps. Can I ask what your using for your HEX vessel
and it's size?
My MLT and HLT are 38 liter plastic round drink coolers, the BK is a 30 liter SS kettle. Future EHEX to be 8 liter with 2000 watt element.

If you want to do no swapping at all, I'd replace the MLT drain with a 3 way valve and install an addition 3 way valve on teh pump suction. Run a hose from the HLT to the pump valve.

I'll work on wrapping my head around this.

Cheers Again!


----------



## Tex N Oz

TheWiggman said:


> Scold, hardly! You wait until you hear me scald. I'm adept with calculators and search engines but I shouldn't need to convert. A preference is one this but this is an Aussie website regardless of where it's hosted, and hence we should stick to SI units.


اوالحمد لله أننا لا تستخدم اللغة العربية. قد ينزعج. :lol:


----------



## Adr_0

Hi WillieP,

You could probably delete V5, V8 and V9 - these are all two valves on the same line.

I agree with upsizing the BK - 8gal if you are lucky you might get 6gal out of it but probably only 5gal. You could squeeze out pretty close to a double batch with a 10gal MLT though (assuming 15-17lb of grain).

I would also look at the tie-in from your BK to heat sparge water through P1, so that P2 can be used purely for MLT recirculation.

If you are only going to stick to 5gal, you could always grab a 5-6gal poly bucket and use this for your sparge water, saving yourself the HLT completely?


----------



## TheWiggman

WillieP said:


> Thanks for posting photos of your system, that helps. Can I ask what your using for your HEX vessel
> and it's size?
> My MLT and HLT are 38 liter plastic round drink coolers, the BK is a 30 liter SS kettle. Future EHEX to be 8 liter with 2000 watt element.


Check this out: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/76055-all-grain-3v-electric-system/?p=1129253
I bought the parts from www.onlinebrewingsupplies.com which is an Aussie store. When making your heat exchanger, do your best to keep the volume of the liquid down to a minimum. 8l is more than ideal, 2l would be tops. Here's the original thread with a build doc: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/63362-hermit-coil-heat-exchange-build/

Adr_0, stop fighting the power.


----------



## Adr_0

TheWiggman said:


> Adr_0, stop fighting the power.


The metric system? I'm working with two American companies and there's nothing but metric, but the guys talk in both interchangeably which I have to respect.

The bucket is great: use it for cracking grain and cleaning either side of sparge water, and no hoses to worry about - just pour. Another option for the HLT is to put an element on it, but at some point you would need extra power/wiring to run two elements in parallel or a heavy duty switch if high current wiring isn't available - and the switch would back you into a corner when you get close to needing sparge water. Or heat with a burner as you've done, but use the other pump so you can keep recircing with the other one.

A 15.5gal keg would be the go, if there is the gas behind it.

Keep in mind as well siphoning - where can you form siphons, and how do you stop it happening - and air in the lines, particularly on the suction side of pumps. Long, gently sloping lines are bad - you're better off going straight down then horizontal when coming into a pump.

And regarding needing to keep V5 to throttle:
- Move V6 to between the HEX coil and the MLT to try and keep the coil full of liquid and throttle using this valve
- Delete V5, V8, V9 and V7
- When you fill from the MLT to the kettle, throttle (if you really need to at the start) at the bottom of the kettle
- When transferring sparge water from the BK to the HLT through pump 1, the hose should be on the pump side of V4. If you have to, throttle on the valve at the bottom of the HLT.


----------



## WillieP

TheWiggman, Thanks for posting the link on the hermit build. I'd heard people talk about the coil, but didn't understand what they were putting them in. Sometimes the brand names used are lost on me. I don't think that style of element is available to me (but to be honest I haven't checked), however not a problem getting an element for a house water heater.

Adr_0, You make several good points, I like the idea of using P1 to get from the BK to the HLT (not sure why I didn't see that). And yes I probably went a little nutzo with the valves, I guess my thought was that if all I had to do was open or close a valve it would make it easier, not more complicated.

I'll re-draw and re-think this. It's all still theory and there are so many ways to skin that cat. You guys really are helping, and I do truly appreciate it.

Side Note: Does everyone use that "cube" style of fermenter? I don't think that's a thing over here. I use a 6.5 gal (25 liter) plastic bucket with air tight lid as primary, and a glass or plastic 6 gal (22.7 liter) carboy as secondary.

Once Again,
Cheers!


----------



## mofox1

WillieP said:


> Side Note: Does everyone use that "cube" style of fermenter? I don't think that's a thing over here. I use a 6.5 gal (25 liter) plastic bucket with air tight lid as primary, and a glass or plastic 6 gal (22.7 liter) carboy as secondary.


Nah, just a few weirdo's... h34r:

Somewhat (alright a lot!) :icon_offtopic:, but cubes are often referenced when using the "no-chill" method of brewing, which is basically filling up water storage containers to the brim of near boiling hot wort. Once in the cubes the wort can be stored somewhat indefinitely.

Since the wort is already in the cube, it is easy to use them as fermenters as well... just add yeast.

And to continue the OT theme... I think we are also less keen on "secondary" fermenters here too, but each to their own.


----------



## Mardoo

Just don't ask about glad wrap…


----------



## WillieP

Mofox1, Total of Topic. Sorry curiosity got the better of me. I've never even heard of "no chill" brewing, sounds kinda cool though. Thanks for the explanation. 
The secondary thing is a hold over from wine making. Not terrible common, unless you're say aging on oak or something similar. Don't tell anyone, I've made wine longer than I've made beer. 
Maroon, "glad wrap"...I'm not taking the bait!


----------



## jlmcgrath

Camo6 said:


> 20151229_195241.jpg
> 
> I run one at the HEX inlet Jlmcgrath.
> Basically, my HLT is the only vessel with a sight glass so I use this to fill the MT via the herms coil. Then I can set the tap to recirc the MT through the herms and bring to mash temps. This allows me to disconnect the HLT hose from the 3 way and recirc my HLT through the whirlpool inlet (I use two pumps in my system).
> Once the mash is finished I can fly sparge from the HLT through the herms coil which flushes it of any wort. This is the only time which I have to disconnect the MT outlet hose to the kettle but I use a small bowl (SS of course!) to catch the drips.
> There's more than one way to skin a cat but using a 3 way suits my setup ATM. Never need to disassemble it because it's all hot side. At about $50 they're not the cheapest option but can certainly make things easiest.


Thanks Camo. I assume you are using a T port 3 way valve in your setup?


----------



## Camo6

jlmcgrath said:


> Thanks Camo. I assume you are using a T port 3 way valve in your setup?


Nah, mine is an L port 3 way. I can feed the HEX from either the HLT or the MT otherwise the valve is closed to flow.


----------



## evoo4u

*Auber 2352P parameters*

I've been playing with my Auber PID controller and (fancy motorised) heat exchanger, with the honorable/commendable/foolhardy/quixotic (strike out whichever don't fit!) goal of achieving perfection  .

I'm interested in the parameters other users set for this controller, and their configuration, which of course affects how the P, I & D are set. Auto-tune of course sets all three (and alters the t parameter for whatever reason), but the results are not stellar. Good advice in this thread is to just use P, and D if necessary.

But today, using just plain water at 65C in the MT, and pumping through a 6m coil in 3.6 litres with a 2200W element, I got excellent stability with parameters tweaked from the auto-tune: P (432), I (62), & D (19). I reset t=2. By excellent, temperature ranged from 65.0 to 65.1 (measured at the HEX outlet).

What are you folk using, and are you happy with the result?

P:
I:
D:
Mash size - kg (water + grain bill):
HEX size - liters:
Coil length - meters:
Element power - watts:
Flow rate - lpm:


----------



## 60.lewdogg.9

You said u drain into cubes/fermenter. What are cubes used for here?


----------



## TheWiggman

evoo4u - http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/41110-dedicated-herms-guide-problems-and-solution-thread/page-73#entry1310593

Follow Adr_0's advice here, specifically regarding P and D. Lots of technical banter around these pages if you want to get your head around it.


----------



## evoo4u

Yeah thanks for that. I've read through the entire thread, and have been doing some extra reading as well.

It seems that P, PI, and PID controllers are the go for most applications, and that PD controllers are a rarity. So I'm interested in why PD controllers are reportedly (thanks to ADR_0) best suited for our applications in home brewing with a HEX.

With a steady inflow and steady loss of temperature to the surroundings, I trying to get my head around why a bit of I wouldn't help. It seemed to be just the duck's nuts in my trial with plain water.

I've read a fair bit on the topic of manually tuning a PID controller, so I'm interested in what works for other brewers. Or if you're happy with a performance which is not quite as good as you expected.

Basically - are you using I or not?


----------



## Adr_0

Before you try tuning PID parameters, what is the process you are trying to control?

If you have a constant coil flow and change your element power from 1000 to 2000 W will the temperature steady out or will it climb? 

This is the crux of it. Integral control does sound great but it builds up error and so controller output the longer you're away from setpoint - and while proportional winds back as it approaches, integral is still there thinking it has all this error and will keep your element on. But the process won't steady out by itself, it just follows slopes (temperature rate of change). 

This is particularly bad with a high volume HEX, short coil and small mash tun where your integral control has you sitting above setpoint and still feeding power in - ie overshoot. 

A good system will be able to have a fairly high proportional gain and keep setpoint without integral control but still respond to small changes.

Have a look on Google about self regulating and non-self regulating systems and decide for yourself what we have as brewers.


----------



## evoo4u

Adr_0 said:


> Have a look on Google about self regulating and non-self regulating systems and decide for yourself what we have as brewers.


Wow - this brought up some excellent resources - thanks! Among others:
http://www.controleng.com/single-article/fundamentals-of-integrating-vs-self-regulating-processes/c4511ec71b114a19097c92b5e3276089.html

I can see why we don't NEED integral action, also why trialling it in a steady-state system (constant volume, flow, and SV temperature with constant heat loss to atmosphere) worked. The integral never got to a "windup" stage, but it wasn't doing anything that couldn't be done with just P (and D as reqd).

I guess I thought that because the Auber controller goes into 'hold' mode while ramping (if time is set to one) until PV is within one degree of SV (on my setup), that integral wouldn't accumulate much. But as I understand, it's simply not needed in this process.

So, back out to the shed, and do another trial with varying P gain, and observing the results, introducing D as necessary.

Thanks again. (Sure helps to brush out the cobwebs  )

EDIT: I probably had a bit of the 'Window's Font' syndrome* and thought that because I had a PID controller, I just had to use all three to get my money's worth. 

( *when the computing age advanced from pin printers, and Windows gave access to a gazillion TT fonts, some folk thought they just HAD to use them all!! )


----------



## fraser_john

After an earlier post about overshooting etc, found I had K-type thermocouples, so ordered a couple of these PT-100 bad boys and just added to the system, reconfigured the SYL-2362 and the SYL-2352P (ramp/soak) PIDs. One on SYL-2362 was accurate at 45c out of the box, SYL-2352P needed a 1.1c offset and it was spot on as well.

Brewing tomorrow morning.


----------



## Nebes

Hi all just wondering were everyone has put there temp senser on there HLT to control there element?
On the return flow or on the outlet of the pump?
Cheers in advance


----------



## Stunts

I have an old 50 litre keg I have converted, my temp sensor is situated half way up the keg


----------



## Rosscoe

If you mean you're running your HEX in your HLT, I'd measure at the return to the MLT. If it's just purely a HLT, midpoint would sound about right. Get it far enough away from your element.


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## Nebes

Yeh it's just a HLT I was thinking I would put a t piece as it returns back into the HLT or is there no point having it recurculating whilst it is heating up for the strike waster and the sparge?


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## MastersBrewery

Recirculating your HLT while heating is the best way to get uniform temps, just have the return same as your kettle whirlpool.


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## Nebes

Yeh thats what i thought just need to know were to put the temp senser to turn on and off the element was either thinking on the outlet of the pump or just before the return that goes back into the HLT


----------



## fraser_john

Nebes said:


> Yeh it's just a HLT I was thinking I would put a t piece as it returns back into the HLT or is there no point having it recurculating whilst it is heating up for the strike waster and the sparge?


Recirculating is an extra cost in terms of pump, plumbing etc. I just an old windshield wiper motor with a paint stirrer to agitate the HLT contents. Works fine and was less that $20 all up.


----------



## TheWiggman

I have convection currents on my side. I set the HLT to 78°C and my HERMS to 80°C. Any fluctuations in the feed temp are accounted for by loss between the HERMS and HLT which is then warmed up appropriately.
This applies to fly sparging.
However, I'd argue the temp of the sparge water is less relevant than other temps because as long as you're in the 75-80°C range, it shouldn't have any impact on the final product. I've never tasted a beer and gone "hmm... sparge temp was 2 degrees out, you can really tell."


----------



## philistine

Hey Beer Dudes,
I found a guy selling stainless steel coils to use as chillers - they're 10m long coils of 8.5mm internal diameter. I think they're meant for running kegged beer thru an esky or something to chill for serving (sorry, Im a very basic brewer with some pots and an esky mash tun - my familiarity with gear is very limited)

anyway, just wondering if they'd be suitable to use in an external HERMS HEX? Is the tubing too narrow? Too long?
They seem really cheap at $55 and come complete with compression fittings....


----------



## CoxR

Hi guys I have spent a good amount of time reading through various builds on various types of systems and am settled on a HERMS rig.
I have all the pots pods's and valves I think I need. 100l kettle 98l mash pot and s 78l pot for sparge water. I am looking to get 3 cubes per brew
My questions are regarding the herms element and coil. I was going to buy a Herm-it coil from online brewing supplies and use it in a kettle as I have seen on this forum, is this adequate for my needs? For the boil kettle is one 4800 watt element better and two 2400 w elements?
I assume that 4800 should be enough to boil 60-80 litres of wort.
Thanks guys.


----------



## Moad

Are there any HEX pre made that would be big enough for a 1 BBL batch?

I have made a HEX but haven't been able to test it out just yet. In case it just doesn't work is there anything out there? Not sure the herm-it coil will cut it...


----------



## Mardoo

Not that I've heard of or could find. The most pre-made bit I've seen is the coil. Hardest parts about making HEX's are wiring elements and stopping leaks, so I reckon with the help of a sparky your issues will be few. You look that HEX in the eye with a stainless steely gaze and tell it who's Daddy!

I mean, I, a complete novice and mechanical dimwit, managed to build one up in a few hours, so I'm guessing you'll be OK.


----------



## CoxR

Moad said:


> Are there any HEX pre made that would be big enough for a 1 BBL batch?
> 
> I have made a HEX but haven't been able to test it out just yet. In case it just doesn't work is there anything out there? Not sure the herm-it coil will cut it...


 What is a 1 BBL batch?
I think after looking through posts in this thread again I might be better to make a coil from copper I have rather than buying a HERM-IT. If I cram as much copper as I can into a tube with a volume of 5 liters the amount of water should be about 3 liters a 2400W element should be fine, Correct?


----------



## Mardoo

1 Barrel Batch. In brewing this usually refers to the US barrel, which is 119L.

I was going to say Moad that I've been thinking of making one in a corny keg for a 400L system.

Edit: I guess a plate chiller could be used as a pre-made HEX. I mean, it's a heat exchanger, not a chiller. Haven't heard of anyone doing that in brewing but it's dead-common in water heating and biodiesel production.


----------



## Moad

Mardoo I think it would then come down to flow rates, you'd need a big pump to ramp 400L!! I'll wait and see what the one I made can do...


----------



## MastersBrewery

Moad said:


> Mardoo I think it would then come down to flow rates, you'd need a big pump to ramp 400L!! I'll wait and see what the one I made can do...


If your just short. I wouldn't risk clogging a plate chiller, but you could use one of those stainless convoluted cfc's with your hlt as a booster. I'm still thinking of going back to 3v 100L and I was thinking this with a 3600w hermit.
MB


----------



## Moad

Could hook something like this up to run just during ramping. Use the MT temp probe to control a separate brown pump circuit during ramp. Using BCS and I have a spare output. This could be a good option, could also be a simple coil in the HLT rather than CFC. I also happen to have a spare electric valve I could use for this! Cheers MB


----------



## Mardoo

Moad said:


> Mardoo I think it would then come down to flow rates, you'd need a big pump to ramp 400L!! I'll wait and see what the one I made can do...


Yep, I'm thinking 5/8" and possibly 3/4". Even 5/8" is a hell of a lot faster than 1/2". We'd easily cut 2 hours out of the brew day. Not that it gets pulled out that often...


----------



## MastersBrewery

Mardoo said:


> Yep, I'm thinking 5/8" and possibly 3/4". Even 5/8" is a hell of a lot faster than 1/2". We'd easily cut 2 hours out of the brew day. Not that it gets pulled out that often...


The larger hoses need a bigger pump march 815 or bigger, flowrate is going to be the clincher for ramp times.


----------



## Mardoo

Yep.


----------



## Moad

I've got a 815-C so hoping I'll get enough flow through my HEX. Got ~6L of copper coil in a 10L pot. I really struggled to get it to seal properly... if it doesn't work I think I will put a Herm-IT together for maintaining temps/recirc and then add something like this into the HLT for ramping

Then the whole rig is stainless as well.

Will hopefully be able to test it in the next few weeks and report back

edit: I think I am just going to go with the Herm-IT and the coil in the HLT for ramping. Everything will be nice and shiny on the new rig and I'll have this ghetto HEX. Just isn't right to do it to the big rig


----------



## Mardoo

Moad said:


> I really struggled to get it to seal properly... if it doesn't work I think I will put a Herm-IT together for maintaining temps/recirc and then add something like this into the HLT for ramping


Were you using thread tape on the compression fitting? That's been my source of leaks in the past. The compression fitting side doesn't seem to seal properly if you use thread tape.


----------



## mb-squared

Moad, I curious why you don't just go 3V all the way? Why have two HEXs? Seems overly complicated to me but perhaps there is a good reason.


----------



## MastersBrewery

mb-squared said:


> Moad, I curious why you don't just go 3V all the way? Why have two HEXs? Seems overly complicated to me but perhaps there is a good reason.


If you mean HX coil in the HLT only, I think the issue would be lack of power to ramp the bach size. The hermit or HLT coil would probably hold temps but for ramping it's going to need a boost. For me I'd use the hermit for continuous duty to avoid over shoots and the HLT coil as boost for ramping.


----------



## mb-squared

There are so many 3V nano breweries out there that don't bother with two separate HXs -- just one HX in the HLT seems to do the trick. Of course, they have 2 5500W elements in the HLT, but if memory serves that is what Moad has too? Seems like it should be enough power. I just can't imagine all the valves and/or hose changes that you'd need to circulate your mash through two separate HXs. Seems way too complicated for me.


----------



## TheWiggman

Interesting idea with the separate HEx. You might run into trouble control-wise though because the HEx will ramp faster than the HLT and the pumped fluid will be inadvertently heating the HLT. Where is the temp going to be measured and what controller will be controlling each element? A single controller can't control both simultaneously because they will both have different heating rates, meaning you'll get overshoot or undershoot on one of the vessels. 2 separate controllers will work but that means two temps to set and two immersed probes.


----------



## MastersBrewery

Yeah get where you guys are going. I was always going to use a cfc in line. So mash>pump>cfc>hermit>return. The cfc being fed from HLT when ramping only. At the end of boil fill HLT with ice water and you have your second stage chilling. When and if variable control motorised valves become cheap you could then have finite control of the boost heating.


----------



## Moad

I only have 3500 + 4500 in HLT and kettle, 2 x 5500w just wouldn't be manageable on single phase if I want to do back to back batches

The idea is to use the Herm-IT to maintain and then use the coil in the HLT to give it a boost. I can end the coil circulation 1 or 2 degrees below the target temp and let the herm-it finish the job off to avoid overshoot.

I can't see me getting enough circulation with one or the other to bring that much liquid up in a reasonable amount of time.

What size batches do people manage with just coil in the HLT, what are the downsides of this configuration?

edit: I also wanted to constantly recirculate, if I went just coil in HLT and wanted to constantly recirculate I would need much bigger elements to heat sparge + mash. With regards to control, I have the BCS. The HEX will be measured at the return into the MT and I would measure recirculation through the HLT in the grain bed. I could stop the recirc when the grain bed gets to target temp minus a few degrees and let the HEX finish the job.


----------



## mb-squared

Moad, if you look through the "testimonials" page on the electricbrewery site you'll see there are several people brewing 30+ gallon batches with a standard 3V setup (i.e. 1 HEX coil in the HLT). But they are running 50A circuits with 2 ~4800W elements in the HLT and 2 more in the BK. In that setup, only the HLT *or* the BK can be fired.

my setup is similar, but I only have 1 5500W element in the HLT and 1 in the BK. I constantly recirculate both the HLT water and the mash and have no problems ramping through a range of steps. I use a water pump to recirculate the water in the HLT and a wort pump to recirculate the mash. I measure temp at the output of the HLT -- hottest point in the system and that way overshooting mash temp is impossible. It's an extremely simple setup! (I also use a BCS to control everything).

I currently brew 50L batches but am moving to 100L batches here soon. In setting the bigger brewery up, I'll add two additional elements: one in the HLT and one in the BK. I'll also be using a much bigger wort pump.


----------



## mb-squared

MastersBrewery said:


> Yeah get where you guys are going. I was always going to use a cfc in line. So mash>pump>cfc>hermit>return. The cfc being fed from HLT when ramping only. At the end of boil fill HLT with ice water and you have your second stage chilling. When and if variable control motorised valves become cheap you could then have finite control of the boost heating.


MB, if you are already using the water in the HLT to heat the mash wort, then the only reason to add a hermit to the mix is if your CFC is an inefficient HEX. And it may be; I don't know. But if you put 15m of copper in your HLT, it will be a very efficient HEX and, if your HLT temp is where you want it to be you won't need to add any additional heat to your wort. At least that is my experience. But I like to keep things simple b/c I'm kinda stupid.


----------



## Moad

Interesting, what is the point of a separate HEX then?


----------



## mb-squared

I have never understood the point of a separate HEX, but there must be a point because many people on this board use them. 4V systems seem to be an OZ-specific thing, though, b/c I don't see them mentioned on other forums.


----------



## MastersBrewery

It's about lag in heating volumes of water. I'll post something a little more substatial from the pc tomorrow if I get the chance.


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## MastersBrewery

In essence when ramping from one step to the next it is optimal to have the wort exiting the the hx at the next step temp immediately if not as soom as possible. Remember the enzime activity is taking place in the wort not the grain, however having a stable grain bed temp is desrable as it means those reactions are taking place across the entire volume. A traditional HLT is slower in achieving that initial ramp purely due to volume. My idea of using the HLT as a booster was 2 fold, as it was not being used to hold mash temp it could be ramped earlier and ready to apply heat to the next step. Note this is with a convoluted ss cfc so HLT temp would have no effect on the mash until the pump is turned on. In the mean time the hermit is maintaining temp. If batch size were 10G or less I wouldn't bother with the cfc/HLT combo. There are pros and cons both ways. The guys with seperate small hx's like the tighter control and faster responce. But as mb has said it does add more gear and you can get there with 3v.

Ed bloody phone!


----------



## TheWiggman

The main point of a separate HEx is an increase in ramp times more efficiently. You are applying heat more directly the the mash liquor instead of the mash liquor + ~20l sparge water simultaneously. I've done both and wouldn't go back, particularly as it's very workable with 23l volumes and standard 240V 10A outlets.


----------



## Moad

Can someone correct me if I am wrong and add some calculations/experience if possible.

My flow rate looks like it will be 7.5LPM through 15m of coil in the HLT based on some initial tests.

say I have 30 Litres in the HLT covering the coil and 8KW of elements.

to heat 30L of water 1 degree with 8KW takes .26 minutes. To include the mash that's 130L and would take 1.2 minutes.

Say 1 degree in 1.5 minutes heating capacity to be conservative - http://processheatingservices.com/water-heating-time-calculator/

For all 100L of mash to pass through the HEX coil will take 13 minutes (at 7.5LPM)

If I set my HLT to desired temperature it should theoretically get there after ~15-20 minutes regardless of the increase (I don't know how to work out if the elements will keep up so am assuming the limiting factor is flow).

Now this means that the wort is being raised way faster than 1 degree per minute, is this a problem? Is 7.5LPM going to compact the grain bed? I've seen 5 thrown around as the magic number on a lot of systems...

Sorry about all the questions


----------



## TheWiggman

A high rate of change of the wort won't be a concern. There are some fundamentals of your system though that you need to consider when talking about the way it will behave.

The wort will act as a coolant much like the HLT will act as a heater. So even though you can calculate the rate of heating of the HLT independently, it won't quite heat this fast because the energy will be getting passed to the wort
The wort being returned to the MT will be hotter than the mash liquor until the system is in equalibrium
The HLT will reach target temp before the mash, meaning the mash temp will always lag behind the HLT temp
The heating rate will slow as the temps get higher (as the temp will get further from ambient)
Because of points 2 and 3 you may be hitting your target temp in 15-20 mins, but the mash temp will be quite a bit lower. 

Regarding compacted grain bed, can't confirm. Lots of variables but the best way to get around it is by having as much surface area on your filter medium as possible (be it a braided hose or false bottom).


----------



## Moad

Thanks Wiggman,

1. This is why I caculated with 130L to factor in Liquor + mash
2. absolutely, I am hoping it is returning back into the mash 1 or 2 degrees lower than HLT temp due to losses. It is 15m of coil...
3. Yep no dramas there
4. gotcha, it is points like this why I am conservative with estimates until I can test real world.

the 15-20 minutes was a conservative estimate of the time to recirculate the volume of the MT once, I am making the assumption that the HLT temp will be maintained with the 8KW of elements (even with the mash liquor absorbing the heat). This is assuming HLT is set to target temp (+2 for losses). If I am ramping HLT while recirculating Mash I estimate it will blow out to ~30 minutes per 10 degrees.

There is a lot of estimates and assumptions here but if I am in the ballpark I am happy


----------



## mb-squared

Moad, are you set up with two pumps? You'll need a water pump to keep the water in the HLT moving. Otherwise you'll get "cold" spots in there right around your coil.

In my experience, once the HLT is up to temp, you'll have zero problems maintaining the temp in the HLT regardless of how fast you're pushing the wort through the HEX (at least with my 5.5KW element). 

Again, in my experience (with a wimpy chugger pump and 15m of 1/2" copper in the HLT), the MT temp lags behind for the first 15~20 minutes, but then it reaches equilibrium with the HLT temp. I've heard of some systems where the MT is always ~1 degree behind so they just set the HLT 1 degree higher, and mine used to be like that when I brewed outside. Since moving indoors, I've found that the HLT and MT temps are identical after the first ~15mins or so.

I suspect with that massive false bottom that you ordered in, you'll be able to turn the MT volume over pretty fast, so you'll be ramping faster than me -- though it sounds like you need to increase the size of the inlet to your wort pump to a minimum of 3/4". on my new pump I'll be feeding it with 1" tubing.

keep us posted with real-world results!


----------



## Moad

3 pumps... One dedicated to HLT (recirc in HLT then sparge) and 1 (potentially 2 in parallel) for moving wort to improve flow rate.

Yep that makes sense what you are saying, it will take 15 minutes for me to get a full cycle of mash through the HEX so that makes perfect sense it would lag at least that much.

the HLT set point relative to MT will be a little trial and error, I was factoring in some loss through silicone tubing from HLT>MT etc but it could well be that it is the same temp.

Thanks heaps Matto, I'm feeling a bit more comfortable with the setup after going through it in detail with Tex and reading your reply

At the end of the day, if the coil isn't cutting it I can add a Herm-IT on a separate circuit or shorten the HEX coil or add a larger diameter coil. There are options


----------



## TheWiggman

Point 1 is a bit misleading. The HLT will heat at a faster rate because it is smaller so it will be 'at temp' before the mash will be. If you to calculate overall energy required to raise the temp then yes, you'd just use both volumes + losses to atmosphere.
Point 2, I'm referring to the difference between the temp of the mash (i.e. temp going into the HEx) and the return temp _from_ the HEx. The temp coming out of the coil will be greater than the temp going in - of course - but I don't think you'll lose anywhere near 1°C between the coil and the MT.
You'll probably find the HEx outlet temp will be almost exactly the same as the HLT temp because 15m is a hell of a lot of coil in this application. That's not a bad thing, worst thing is you'll lose a bit of flow but it sounds like that's not an issue.

The other thing to consider is the time will be greater than calculated because the PID controller will slow to prevent overshoot. As a comparison, my system has a 2000W element and it takes me about 45 mins to heat up 15l of 20°C water to 58°C. The calculator you linked says it should take 20. Extrapolating, in your case I would guess it would take about an hour - 6 x the volume, 4 x the power of my system. However I reckon you'll get the temp you're after at the HEx outlet much sooner than that.


----------



## Moad

Thanks Wiggman, I guess I was assuming the heating wouldn't be what would be slowing the ramp rates which seems to correlate with Mattos setup.

I see, I have put a lot of faith in that calculator. I accept some variation but double the time to ramp would piss me off!

I guess it is a leap of faith, so many variables mean I'll likely have to wait to test it out real world and modify from there.


----------



## mb-squared

I've never used that calculator but here's my real-world experience. I fill up my HLT with ~40L of cold water (I've been told to never use hot tap water!) and my MT with 30L of cold water. I turn on both the water and wort pumps as well as the 5.5kw element in the HLT. Actually, I start the "get mash-in temp" function on my BCS. I then turn around, weigh out my grain, mill my grain and measure out my salt and acid additions. Right about the time I finish up those chores, the BCS starts dinging, letting me know that my MT is up to temp.** I'd say it takes somewhere between 30 and 40 minutes. 

**Moad, note that I set up the BCS to cycle the element on/off based on the temp probe at the HLT-out valve, but the "get mash temp" process doesn't exit until the temp probe in the MT has reached my desired 'mash in' temp. Again, that's ~15 minutes after the HLT has reached my desired temp.


----------



## Moad

I'm hooking up a Hot Water System to feed the HLT so no dramas there! Good to know though...

I'll be almost at strike temp instantly with the HWS in play

8KW of heating in the HLT as well, I think the weakest link is the flow rate through the coil 

Edit: With regards to the BCS, that should work fine on my ststem as well as PID will be confused with the mash through the HEX pulling the temp back down. Do you get any overshoot? I was planning on doing this for mash steps as well


----------



## Screwtop

A brewing mate with metal fab skills made this fantastic wort return manifold. It sits on top of the grainbed, the flexible hose allows for varying grainbill size, outlet holes in the top of the arms distribute wort evenly over the top of the grainbed with no disturbance. So well made, all stainless, easy to use and clean. Ordered one from him for my HERMS Brewery.














Screwy


----------



## Benn

Looks good Screwy


----------



## Moad

Well I got around to hooking up the pumps and running a flow test through the coil.

6L / min back into the Mash Tun. 

Looking forward to hooking the elements up and seeing what kind of heat transfer I get through the coil.

Flow rate 6L/min
Mash volume 80L
HLT Volume 100L
Total volume 180L
Elements 8KW

So it should take around 15 minutes to step a degree. I will need to see what kind of temp transfer is possible through the coil. will it transfer 4 degrees from the HLT through the coil and return to the MT for example. Is this evendesirable? I've seen the 1 degree per minute thrown around so is that what I should be ramping the HLT at and not have a large differential between HLT and MT.


----------



## Adr_0

So you have 1 x 8000kW? How many metres of coil do you have?

Are you controlling HLT/coil vessel, wort return line or mash tun? If you don't have control do you have indication?


----------



## Mardoo

OK, as a prelude, I am Not-Physics-Man here, so my question may be a bit ham-handed.

Moad's question has raised a question I have, about effective flow rate. If I use a HEX coil with a smaller diameter tubing, but move the same amount of wort through it, I'm effectively increasing the flow rate through the heat exchanger, yes? For example, if I move 6L/min through a 3/8" diameter coil, and 6L/min through a 1/2" diameter coil, wouldn't the heating efficiency of the HEX with the 3/8" coil be greater, at least insofar as efficiency relates to flow rate and heat uptake relates to tubing diameter?


----------



## malt junkie

6L/min for a 80L mash is probably not enough. Much like throwing stones at a tank. Though you'd only see significant increase with one of the nano pumps from either chugger On brewhardware site @ US$324 (a little cheaper but out of stock) or March On the morebeer sight listed @US$780. Both expensive options. Your other considerations if you do go a bigger pump; would be size of FB versus flow rate. As with all these kind of pumps the inlet needs to be as open and large(hose wise) as practicable to get the best performance. Note one of these will run CIP on any other gear you have or might get.

There maybe another solution??!!??


----------



## Moad

3.5 and 4.5kw in the HLT.

i've got 1 inch hose into a 1" tee into 2 x march 815-C pumps out to another 1" tee into !" hose then into the coil in the HLT.

the coil is 1/2" 50ft stainless

edit: with the nano pumps i'd probably need to start looking at a grant or i'd be pulling down on the grain bed i think.

my realistic options are to increase diameter of the coil or shorten it.

will wait and see once i can run some tests with elements hooked up


----------



## malt junkie

Moad note that ramp rates are lineal, no system can do a 1 deg step at 1deg/min unless they are able to recirc the entire volume or more in one minute. Heating I think your well covered. I would check with a few of the guys as to what flow rates they're working with, I'm sure most with 30cm falsie are running wide open without sticking, your FB would have much more surface area, so 12+LPM should be doable


----------



## TheWiggman

Mardoo said:


> OK, as a prelude, I am Not-Physics-Man here, so my question may be a bit ham-handed.
> 
> Moad's question has raised a question I have, about effective flow rate. If I use a HEX coil with a smaller diameter tubing, but move the same amount of wort through it, I'm effectively increasing the flow rate through the heat exchanger, yes? For example, if I move 6L/min through a 3/8" diameter coil, and 6L/min through a 1/2" diameter coil, wouldn't the heating efficiency of the HEX with the 3/8" coil be greater, at least insofar as efficiency relates to flow rate and heat uptake relates to tubing diameter?


Same amount of wort means flow _rate_ is the same (ya duffa). You are increasing the flow _velocity_. With a smaller diameter coil the fluid will spend less time exposed to the HEx, but will be more turbulent and will have a higher surface:volume ratio. Long and short of it: smaller coil is better for the same flow rate. In reality using a typical home brewing centrifugal pump will mean the smaller coil will choke the flow, and which is better I can't tell you without some proper engineering.


----------



## Moad

What I meant was I can turn the whole volume of MT over in 15 minutes. So then I thought if the differential is for example 10 degrees, would I be able to raise the entire volume 10 degrees in 15 minutes assuming heating was covered. In other words, how efficient is the coil going to be.

Ill have to wait and see it seems there are too many variables.

I will go the nano pump if necessary but I'm not ruling out current equipment yet. Getting so close to finishing this thing


----------



## mofox1

Hey Moad, I have a smaller but similar setup...

46L (max) mash
88L HLT w/ 50' coil
5.5kw elt in the HLT
Approx 5L/min using a kaixin (kegking) mag drive pump

I usually run the HLT with around 70L in it (for a double batch). The HLT by itself (no mash recirc) will ramp at more than 1deg/min (at 50L it ramps at 1deg per 45 sec). Most times I will mash in either using hot tap water (~55deg) or similar temp water from the HLT. While stirring in the grains I have the HLT heating to sacc temp (~65). By the time the grains are all stirred in and left to settle for a bit, the HLT has reached target temp. When I start a slow recirc I'm getting pretty much target temp coming out of the coil. When I open up the pump throttle all the way I'm still getting near target temp (usually a couple degrees off when there is a 10deg diff between HLT and mash tun out).

Previous to last brew it took 22min for the temp at mash tun outlet to go from 52deg to 63deg, the target was 65. I was getting 65 out of the coil out / mash return within 10min. Unfortunately, I got a stuck mash (f'k u rye) at around 20/30min and stopped taking temp notes from the mash outlet. This was 13kg grain in a total volume of around 42L (~2.5 - 3.0 L/kg). The next brew I did (~10kg @ 3L/kg) started at 55, I didn't check any temps until 20min later and the mash tun outlet was already it target temp 68 (same as HLT).

I don't do too many stepped mashes, but ramping doesn't seem to be too much an issue. Even when recirc'ing the 5.5kW elt will ramp the HLT by a degree/min, wort temp out of the coil is very close to to HLT temp unless there is a massive temp diff between grain bed and HLT...

Long story short - it'll be fine (probably - your mash tun *is* larger). Just because it takes 10 / 15 min to recirc the entire mash volume, your wort return closely follow your target/step temps. You'll get much better than 1 deg/15min, (more like 0.5L/min when reading @ coil out) it's just the lag time to get that temp out from the bottom of the grain bed is obviously dependant on flow rate which is in turn dependant on coil length yada yada...

I keep saying I will do an accurate (and complete) recording of brew day times and temps... but I usually start downing a couple half way through and lose (or re-order?) priorities. C'est la vie, non?


----------



## malt junkie

mofox more rice hulls with the rye


----------



## Moad

Thanks for the detailed reply mofox, do you find any issues having a large differential between HLT temp and the mash liquor coming through the coil?

What's the 1 degree per minute? Is that only if direct fired MT?


----------



## mofox1

Yeah, on reflection the post was probably a little "tldr". The 1 deg/min is the ballpark rise in the HLT when stepping the mash from one temp to another. A bit slower than when just heating the HLT alone.

No direct fire here, all electric. Mash heats from coil in HLT.

I reckon the large differential works well. I go from a lower temp to mash in (much less issues when doughing in), and then basically boom up to sacc temp for the liquor returning from the coil. It still takes some time to bring the total mash volume up to temp, but the "hot" liquor basically percolates down. You don't see much change for the first few minutes, then it starts rising up to target.


----------



## Moad

Sorry I meant that figure of 1 degree per minute that gets thrown around. I always thought it was to stop denaturing of enzymes or something but then HERMS designs run a large differential so in the time the mash liquor gets through the hex coil it could potentially jump 4 or 5 degrees in one pass.

And the more detail the better mate, I am probably being a pain in the ass with the questions but I've dumped alot of coin into the build and am a little nervous about how it will all run. I'm feeling a bit more confident now though, I'd say 50ft of coil will give me a good heat transfer, heating with 8kw should be no issue and a flow rate of 6L/min should all result in ramping to mash out in half an hour or so. I generally don't do step mashes so its really only from 65-67 ramping to 76.


----------



## malt junkie

Consider a standard single batch, with a hermit on something like Camo6's system his recirc would be around 7-8LPM with liquor to grits ratio of 3.5-4L/kg. You've got 20L of liquid. If the hex is powered sufficiently the exit temp should be at target from the get go. So a 7 deg step @ 1Deg/min would have the liquor turned over the tun 2 and a half times. I dare say on those numbers you'd be more like 1.2 - 1.5 Deg/min.

Now double batch that with the same 7 Deg step and your better than 1Deg/min goes out the window but not significantly, step done in around 10mins.

ED: I did think of another way to increase flow: Run two coils in parallel


----------



## mofox1

Moad said:


> Sorry I meant that figure of 1 degree per minute that gets thrown around. I always thought it was to stop denaturing of enzymes or something but then HERMS designs run a large differential so in the time the mash liquor gets through the hex coil it could potentially jump 4 or 5 degrees in one pass.


Ah - I get ya now (eventually). I'd mash in at 65 if I could, but it's resulted in dough balls a few times, never had it mashing in with 50 - 55 deg water. So I'm not really interested in the temps between 55 and 65, just want it up there ASAP. For any steps after that, the HLT will ramp at ~1 deg/min with the coil out matching the HLT, and the mash tun outlet following about 10mins after (or whatever the full mash volume recirc time + a bit equals).



Moad said:


> And the more detail the better mate, I am probably being a pain in the ass with the questions but I've dumped alot of coin into the build and am a little nervous about how it will all run.


PS - we don't talk about the war. They might be looking... h34r:


----------



## Moad

Awesome, so theoretically on my system:

180L can be heated 10 degrees in approximately 15 minutes and I can also turn the entire mash over in 15 minutes so the max time to get the mash up the 10 degrees would be 30 minutes but more likely less than that. I'm fine if that is the case in reality.

Still though I can't find much info on the 1 degree/min ramp rate, more than that apparently denatures enzymes. So does that mean you are denaturing when you are turning your mash from 55-65 in a pass through the coil?


----------



## malt junkie

Interesting question, my feel would be no, at mash in your taking those same enzimes from 20c to 55, or in my case 65, MHB would be the man to ask though.


----------



## mofox1

Moad said:


> Awesome, so theoretically on my system:
> 
> 180L can be heated 10 degrees in approximately 15 minutes and I can also turn the entire mash over in 15 minutes so the max time to get the mash up the 10 degrees would be 30 minutes but more likely less than that. I'm fine if that is the case in reality.
> 
> Still though I can't find much info on the 1 degree/min ramp rate, more than that apparently denatures enzymes. So does that mean you are denaturing when you are turning your mash from 55-65 in a pass through the coil?


A prolonged step at 50 - 55 is used for a protein rest. When using normal (fully modified) malts I *dont* want to stay there for a prolonged time, so denature away...


----------



## Moad

Yeah valid point about 20 to 55/65. Obviously it works for Herms brewers so perhaps a non issue. Research required...

I'll report back once the electrical stuff is done and I can run some tests


----------



## malt junkie

Well after a lot of discussion, enlightenment, research, and realisation some of which took place here. The flow rate issue has if not been resolve then the root cause found.
So to start Chugger, March and I believe KK pumps are all designed to be dual frequency 50hz/60hz 240v pumps able to operate both here and the US. Unfortunately the rotational speed of the pump is directly affected by the frequency. At zero head; the 20% more power our northern cousins have makes only a minor difference, however as head increases so does the gap between the 50hz and 60hz curves.
Chugger only show one curve for their pump; the 60hz. Luckily March show both, note the max flow rate( even at 50hz) for this pump at zero is higher than the Chugger but has the same head @ 50hz. On the march 50hz have a look where the 6LM mark it's fairly close to 4m (13ft) head; now check the chugger graph for flow rate at 13ft Which is 3.5gmp or 13LMP. That 10hz difference is costing Aussie brewers everywhere half the designed flow rate.

Changing or converting frequencies is discussed in my first link so I won't delve any deeper.

But I didn't give up and I did find a solution or two.

A few years back Qldkev did some running around and we had a bulk buy run on the MP 15RM @50hz 16LPM 2.4m (I believe this is the rebranded KK grey pump)

Kev also Grabbed a more powerful pump, though it had 3/4 thread so not many takers that was the MP [email protected] 27LPM 3.1m


I went for a look about and found bigger again though with 1" thread MP 55RM@50hz 60LPM 5.6m

Further search had me looking at a 24v DC pump with a SS head that looks like it had been rip off the chugger. The best bit 24DC is 24DC anywhere the other thing is the graph is lineal Topsflo TD5-A24-2705-P/AU 24v @ 1.4A 35w 27LPM 5m


*flow rates quoted are max flow at zero head
* Meters quoted are max head
# Note to Keg King or vendors there of: if what I have stated here is incorrect please direct me to the *Manufacturers* web site with the correct detail.

I'm sure if a BB were started for either of the linked items those prices would change some what, eg the topsflo can be had for US$87 a piece (min order 500)

ED:TYpung


----------



## zeggie

Hey guys, I'm helping build a new 200l 3V rig.

I've previously used a Hermit coil with great results on an old 80l 3V.
https://onlinebrewingsupplies.com/herm-itr-heat-exchange/herm-itr-2-4kw-hx-heat-exchange-full-kit

For 200L will a Hermit coil full kit be big enough? 
Or should I go 25' or 50' s/s coil in the HLT like everyone in the states do?

Only doing a single step mash with a mash out and batch sparge. If need be I can use coil and HLT to keep a constant temp and batch sparge with mash out temp.

Cheers


----------



## Moad

I'm running 50ft stainless in HLT for 120L rig and testing indicates 1.5 degrees per minute ramping.

Without reading back through the whole thread,what differential are people seeing between hex outlet and mash run probe. I'm seeing 2 degree difference, the my never catches up. I expected .5-1 degree difference not 2.

Should I be bumping temp at hex up by the 2 degrees or should I only let it get to my desired mash temp regardless of losses in the bed.

I don't want to insulate the MT and hide all that sexy stainless


----------



## mrillies

This thread has so much good information, i highly recommend reading as much as you can. However here is some of the nuggets i have extracted from it.

*WHY USE SEPARATE HEX*
Separate HEX is possible more common in Aus due to our stadard plugs and wiring. UK has 240V16A, US has 120V 20A commonly paired to 240V 20A etc etc. We have a pissy 2400W as standard. A couple of people who questioned why use a HEX have admited to having 4-5000W or more available.

To decide on a HEX vs HLT coil you need to work backward. 
1. What is your total energy available
2. What size mash do you want
3. What ramp speed do you want 
Remember, The HEX/HLT output will get to set point long before the mash does. Our ramp time is taken from when the HEX output starts to move until temp exiting MLT hits set point.

To achevice 1degC/min* for various volumes of HEX + Mash assuming 85% efficency
2400W - 30L, 
3600W - 44L
4800W - 59L
5500W - 67L, etc

For example, a 2400W with a 5L Hex could theroetically heat 25L in a MLT @ 1degC/min 
Thermal mass of the grain obviously effects this.
That same 2400W would heat 25L in the HLT and 25L in the mash around 0.6degC/min

*Small HEX equals less total volume to heat for a given Mash.*
If you have sufficient Wattage to heat the HLT and MLT at the same time, do it and skip the HEX.


*COMMON HEX/HLT SETUP*
Once youve chosen your method size (3L Pot or full HLT are common), 
put enough copper/SS to transfer the energy being produced.

*Small Hex*
3-4m is enough to remove 2.4-3.6kW from a 2-4L pot. 
This works as the HEX temp will be much hotter than set point.
The element will be controlled by the wort temp exiting the HEX.
This setup is stable (low overshoot) when the coil volume and HEX pot volume are as close as possible
ie Cram as much copper in the pot as you can.

*Coil in HLT* ( Much more detail elsewhere)
15m+ in a HLT should see the output match the HLT temp.
This length is required as the HLT will only be the same or slightly higher than the required set point

*Counter Flow Exchanger* CFX
A third way is a Counter flow exchanger, often used as a chiller (CFC)
Cycle the Mash through the inner coil and HLT hot water through the outer
Like the HEX, the temp in the HLT can be hotter than set point without scalding wort, the wort temp exiting can be controlled by amount of Hot water flow through the CFX.

All of these work better when as much as possible is insulated, any lost heat is a loss in efficency.

*MY SETUP*

I can use both a HEX and CFX and both work for 1 deg/min temp rises using a single 2400W element for a 20-25L mash.
The current experiment is to quickly brew ~40L by leveraging both
Basically the idea is to have the 2400W element on all the time, storing heat in the HLT while the MLT is at set point.

*Process*
During a rest,
1. wort is pumped through a 3m coil in a 3L HEX. The HEX element cycles on a little to maintain the output temp.
2. The HLT is set to 95 deg. The ouput electronics logic lets only one SSR come on at a time, 
any moment the HEX is not on, heat is applied to the HLT

When its time to step,
1. MLT pump is routed half through the hex and half through the CFX internal coil.
2. The HEX set point is raised and the element comes on full, stopping the HLT element. 
3. The HLT water is pumped through the CFX outer coil, heating the wort.
4. When the HLT temp drops to same as the MLT temp, isolate the CFX and the HEX finishes off the work.

Early testing of the procedure is very tasty, i mean promising


----------



## pist

Looking at adding a herms to my BIAB setup for a couple of reasons.

First, its a major PITA to step mash on gas, easy to overshoot your target temp for the next step if your not watching like a hawk

Second, I want to go electric as gas usage with my nasa is ridiculous. I have limited power available though. Calcs ive looked at, suggest I would need at least 4800W to be able to ramp at an acceptable rate. Both circuits I have won't support this and not possible to get one installed as I am renting. After a lot of reading, it would seem herms could possibly let me get away with potentially halving this requirement.

Total noob at all this though,so have a few questions.

My typical mash vol is around 80L, full volume double batch BIAB. What size HLT would I be looking at to fire this setup?

What Length coil would I be looking at?

Is it possible to use a temperature controller to control it all, or do I need to look at going to a PID?

What size element would be appropriate?

I will probably go for the silver kk mag drive pump they look like they would do the job.

*Things I already have at my disposal I could repurpose for this to keep cost down:*

14L exposed element urn
30L aluminium stock pot
50L Keggle that's already got a ball valve welded in (Previous single batch rig)
2x 1m lengths of silicone hose.

Would like to ramp as quick as possible

cheers for the help, head is spinning trying to work out where to start.


----------



## pist

It would seem ive overlooked firing the kettle for the boil not really going to be that helpful/beneficial after all is it


----------



## Thefatdoghead

MB-squared

Ill be getting a bcs soon and could you elaborate a bit more on how you set up your HLT and Mash temp? 
How does your HLT temp not overshoot your mash temp etc?


mb-squared said:


> I've never used that calculator but here's my real-world experience. I fill up my HLT with ~40L of cold water (I've been told to never use hot tap water!) and my MT with 30L of cold water. I turn on both the water and wort pumps as well as the 5.5kw element in the HLT. Actually, I start the "get mash-in temp" function on my BCS. I then turn around, weigh out my grain, mill my grain and measure out my salt and acid additions. Right about the time I finish up those chores, the BCS starts dinging, letting me know that my MT is up to temp.** I'd say it takes somewhere between 30 and 40 minutes.
> 
> **Moad, note that I set up the BCS to cycle the element on/off based on the temp probe at the HLT-out valve, but the "get mash temp" process doesn't exit until the temp probe in the MT has reached my desired 'mash in' temp. Again, that's ~15 minutes after the HLT has reached my desired temp.


----------



## mb-squared

Hi gavin8019, I think it will be easier to understand once you get your BCS. With the BCS, each stage of your brew day is broken down into a "process" (e.g. "get mash-in temp", "protein rest", "saccharification" etc.). A process terminates after a specified time or temp has been reached. On my system, I have a temp probe on my HLT and one on my Mash Tun; I have an electric element in my HLT. The "get mash-in temp" process heats the HLT until the HLT temp probe reaches the specified temp but that process does not terminate until the Mash Tun temp probe reaches the specified temp. So no overheating -- must maintains the mash-in temp in the HLT until the Mash Tun is ready. Does that make sense?


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

malt junkie said:


> Well after a lot of discussion, enlightenment, research, and realisation some of which took place here. The flow rate issue has if not been resolve then the root cause found.
> So to start Chugger, March and I believe KK pumps are all designed to be dual frequency 50hz/60hz 240v pumps able to operate both here and the US. Unfortunately the rotational speed of the pump is directly affected by the frequency. At zero head; the 20% more power our northern cousins have makes only a minor difference, however as head increases so does the gap between the 50hz and 60hz curves.
> Chugger only show one curve for their pump; the 60hz. Luckily March show both, note the max flow rate( even at 50hz) for this pump at zero is higher than the Chugger but has the same head @ 50hz. On the march 50hz have a look where the 6LM mark it's fairly close to 4m (13ft) head; now check the chugger graph for flow rate at 13ft Which is 3.5gmp or 13LMP. That 10hz difference is costing Aussie brewers everywhere half the designed flow rate.
> 
> Changing or converting frequencies is discussed in my first link so I won't delve any deeper.
> 
> But I didn't give up and I did find a solution or two.
> 
> A few years back Qldkev did some running around and we had a bulk buy run on the MP 15RM @50hz 16LPM 2.4m (I believe this is the rebranded KK grey pump)
> 
> Kev also Grabbed a more powerful pump, though it had 3/4 thread so not many takers that was the MP [email protected] 27LPM 3.1m
> 
> 
> I went for a look about and found bigger again though with 1" thread MP 55RM@50hz 60LPM 5.6m
> 
> Further search had me looking at a 24v DC pump with a SS head that looks like it had been rip off the chugger. The best bit 24DC is 24DC anywhere the other thing is the graph is lineal Topsflo TD5-A24-2705-P/AU 24v @ 1.4A 35w 27LPM 5m
> 
> 
> *flow rates quoted are max flow at zero head
> * Meters quoted are max head
> # Note to Keg King or vendors there of: if what I have stated here is incorrect please direct me to the *Manufacturers* web site with the correct detail.
> 
> I'm sure if a BB were started for either of the linked items those prices would change some what, eg the topsflo can be had for US$87 a piece (min order 500)
> 
> ED:TYpung




Hey MJ, just did some research myself and found the same pump, in fact it's now sold by an aussie ebay supplier at similar price bracket to the Chugger and quoted as superior to the Chugger/March pumps because it is DC supply and therefore truly variable speed (although given the magnetic drive part I am unsure the merits of that statement.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Stainles...377180?hash=item25d9b60edc:g:9~8AAOSwMvtZUH1h

So.... has anyone actually tried one of these and can vouch for the performance etc?


----------



## malt junkie

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Hey MJ, just did some research myself and found the same pump, in fact it's now sold by an aussie ebay supplier at similar price bracket to the Chugger and quoted as superior to the Chugger/March pumps because it is DC supply and therefore truly variable speed (although given the magnetic drive part I am unsure the merits of that statement.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Stainles...377180?hash=item25d9b60edc:g:9~8AAOSwMvtZUH1h
> 
> So.... has anyone actually tried one of these and can vouch for the performance etc?


I'm sure your aware of pump curves LPM vs Head, and indeed when graphed those figures for an AC pump create a curve. DC pumps are lineal, so a straight line from zero head high volume to max head and no volume.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Really? I have not seen a linear pump curve myself before, because the function that governs flow and pressure drop (head) is not a linear equation, so how is it different for DC simply due to the power supply aspect?


----------



## TheWiggman

Some solid Engrish in that eBay advert for a bushless pump.
I'm not sure of your explanation there MJ, the only difference between the DC and AC pump is the drive. It's still a centrifugal pump so will behave the same way, not a straight line as you imply. Adjusting the input speed however will allow control over the power (because, simply put, the faster the impeller spins the more pressure / flow) which is not as simple asn an AC drive in the domestic scale. Note however the quoted pump has a simple AC converter for power so you'd still need to buy some sort of PWM controller to adjust the speed.


----------



## pirateagenda

Anyone using their herms hex as an instant hot water heater for sparging? 
I'm setting up a large 1V system (quad batch minimum) with a small volume hex, and am toying with the idea of running tap water directly through the hex to sparge. I have never bothered sparging in the past with double batches and have always had good efficiency, however I've been told I will need to for bigger batches.


----------



## TheWiggman

I use my HEx during the sparge. I'll set the HLT to 75°C and the HERMS to 80°C, plumbing the HLT through the HERMS. Due to the low flow by the time the water has made it to the mash tun it'll have lost a degree or two.
I wouldn't try to heat 10-25°C heat tap water to sparge temp in a single pass with a common 2.7m HERMS coil using water, you'll face a few issues with the biggest one likely to be boiling the HERMS water. It _is _doable, but there are a lot of variables to consider for it to function correctly and to avoid a dangerous situation.


----------



## pirateagenda

First trial with new hex setup that is approx 7L with 6m copper coil and a 2200W keg king element. 

Don't have the controller hooked up yet, but got the HEX up to about 70C then started running cold tap water through it. Full speed on the pump it came out luke warm at the other end, when i choked the pump back to a drizzle it's coming out around 45. At full speed on the pump the hex is cooling, even though the element is on flat out. 

Next test, bought the HEX to the boil and put 45C water though it. Again when its at full speed the HEX water is losing heat. The water coming out is too hot to hold my hand under but no where near boiling. Recirculating through the pump I've gained about 15C in 45 minutes for about 80L water. 

So the problems I am encountering are:
- Big differential between HEX temp and liquid out of the HEX temp (more copper should solve this, but will make the 2nd problem worse?)
- HEX losing heat (more watts needed?) 

Hopefully it will have enough guts to hold mash temp for a large batch as that is it's primary goal, however would be nice to be able to speed it up to heat strike water and sparge with. Reno'ing the house soon and i'm getting a new shed, so am going to put a lot of power down there!


----------



## roller997

pirateagenda said:


> First trial with new hex setup that is approx 7L with 6m copper coil and a 2200W keg king element.
> 
> Don't have the controller hooked up yet, but got the HEX up to about 70C then started running cold tap water through it. Full speed on the pump it came out luke warm at the other end, when i choked the pump back to a drizzle it's coming out around 45. At full speed on the pump the hex is cooling, even though the element is on flat out.
> 
> Next test, bought the HEX to the boil and put 45C water though it. Again when its at full speed the HEX water is losing heat. The water coming out is too hot to hold my hand under but no where near boiling. Recirculating through the pump I've gained about 15C in 45 minutes for about 80L water.
> 
> So the problems I am encountering are:
> - Big differential between HEX temp and liquid out of the HEX temp (more copper should solve this, but will make the 2nd problem worse?)
> - HEX losing heat (more watts needed?)
> 
> Hopefully it will have enough guts to hold mash temp for a large batch as that is it's primary goal, however would be nice to be able to speed it up to heat strike water and sparge with. Reno'ing the house soon and i'm getting a new shed, so am going to put a lot of power down there!



While a larger copper coil will get you warmer water exiting the HEX coil than the current coil, I am not sure if your element is going to keep up, especially if the difference in temperature is too much.
I did some testing a while ago and with a modern 2000W insulated kettle boiling about 1.9L of water from 19.3C to 100C took 6 minutes and 9 seconds.

For a 2200W element directly in the water I would expect that to be about 10% faster so I would assume it would still take around 5:20 to heat water up by 80 degrees.
That means to warm up 1.9L, for each minute it rises by about 15 degrees. So to increase your 80L by 15 degrees means it will take more than 42 minutes, assuming there is really good insulation and it ignores the thermal mass of the grain bed.

In the case above, when you mention a dribble, to get the 25 degree continuous gain in temperature increase you would have to run the water through at 1.1L per minute which would be quite slow. Any faster than that, even with a larger copper coil and you would only get 45 degrees for the initial water and it would cool down the HEX faster than the element could heat it.

I don't believe you will have issues maintaining the mash temperature if the mash tun is insulated but you might be better off to heat some sparge and strike water separately. 

I used to run 2 * 2.4KW elements in a 4L double walled pot to get the HEX up to temp very quickly and HEX coil is stainless tubing (not as thermally conductive as copper) which is about 5 meter long.

It achieved the temperatures quite quickly but I didn't use it to heat the strike water or the sparge water. I used a separate hot liquor tun (Keg King 60L double walled urn) and once I had the mash at 78 degrees, I bumped up the two elements to just below boiling point to heat the wort as much as possible as it was pumped through the HEX to the kettle. The Kettle only had a 3600Watt element and it was insulated, which was enough for a rolling boil of the batches I made.

My setup was for up to a 80L wort, however most often I only made about 50L.

I hope it helps

Roller


----------



## Hermies

I have a little over 3mtr of copper in my 7.6 lt pot and I can raise the temp a degree a minute using a 2400W element . I do start with cold water which is around the 20*C mark and it takes around 45min to get up temp mash temp and I have no problems holding the temps . Mind you my probe is on the outlet side of the pot and I do run a PID .


----------



## gibbocore

Hey Folks, is been a while but I finally got my herms rig up and running, living in a one city terrace, most parts of my rig are multi use and able to be pulled down for storage, that being said it’s performing really well and I’m pretty happy with flows and temp control, I run a copper coil through an esky, I have a 3000w caravan/bath heater for big jumps and I use my ANOVA to maintain, it’s doing 10 minute steps, with insulated pvc hosing into an insulated keg tun with false bottom, it’s working well. I’m having trouble though with efficiency as I’m sitting at around 70%. I’m batch sparging for simplicity while I iron out my processes but have the vessels and tiers to fly sparge. 

My questions, I’d like to know the best way to manage my water additions because I think I’m losing efficiency here, I’d like to know if there’s a direct correlation to water and potential sugar saturation, with my first batch I def had too much water and didn’t boil off as much as I predicted, about 4L off, so my gravity was light on. With my last batch I filed the water losses back in my equipment profile and ended up 3L short in the fermenter but still 2points under my predicted gravity (after recalculating the gravity to water). 

So I guess my second question is, can you over dilute by sparging too much? Or if you know your boil off rate can you sparge at an optimum rate by batch or fly and not risk over dilution?

Last question, is the Craftbrewer generic crack the best for a herms recirculated rig with beer belly falsie? That’s another variable that I think is effecting my efficiency. Thanks all.


----------



## Don

gibbocore said:


> Hey Folks, is been a while but I finally got my herms rig up and running, living in a one city terrace, most parts of my rig are multi use and able to be pulled down for storage, that being said it’s performing really well and I’m pretty happy with flows and temp control, I run a copper coil through an esky, I have a 3000w caravan/bath heater for big jumps and I use my ANOVA to maintain, it’s doing 10 minute steps, with insulated pvc hosing into an insulated keg tun with false bottom, it’s working well. I’m having trouble though with efficiency as I’m sitting at around 70%. I’m batch sparging for simplicity while I iron out my processes but have the vessels and tiers to fly sparge.
> 
> My questions, I’d like to know the best way to manage my water additions because I think I’m losing efficiency here, I’d like to know if there’s a direct correlation to water and potential sugar saturation, with my first batch I def had too much water and didn’t boil off as much as I predicted, about 4L off, so my gravity was light on. With my last batch I filed the water losses back in my equipment profile and ended up 3L short in the fermenter but still 2points under my predicted gravity (after recalculating the gravity to water).
> 
> So I guess my second question is, can you over dilute by sparging too much? Or if you know your boil off rate can you sparge at an optimum rate by batch or fly and not risk over dilution?
> 
> Last question, is the Craftbrewer generic crack the best for a herms recirculated rig with beer belly falsie? That’s another variable that I think is effecting my efficiency. Thanks all.



The answer is yes, each to their own but you should stop sparging around the 1.010 mark as a max cut off. If SG still too high directly add water to the boil without going through the grain bed. To help out with efficiency, little things like pumping some sparge water through the herms to regain those sugars out of the coil and lines there could 1/2 a liter to 1 liter in there. Investigate your grain crush. And definitely get into fly sparging, its slower and more evenly rinses the grain of sugars.


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## gibbocore

Thanks Don, thats reassuring, def keen to get going with fly sparging, need a better pickup tube in my kettle first.

When fly sparging do you start your sparge while draining off? Or do you fully drain the mash tun first?


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## Don

gibbocore said:


> Thanks Don, thats reassuring, def keen to get going with fly sparging, need a better pickup tube in my kettle first.
> 
> When fly sparging do you start your sparge while draining off? Or do you fully drain the mash tun first?


You keep the water level an inch above the grain bed, as you fly sparge while draining into the boil at the same time. The idea here is to avoid compacting the grain bed by draining the water out or too fast and also maximizing all the sugars extracted. When you know your equipment you should be able to have a lot more sparge water in reserve and say you design 60 litres in the boil. You should be able to sparge until the SG hits no less then 1.010 and you should be smack on 60 litres, but you will still have an inch of water above the grain bed which is just water by this stage. It's a superior method then pouring water over the top and waiting for it to drain through the bed and wait for it to drip dry.
Also you know the saying "listen to everyone, follow no one" cheers.


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## MontPel

With fly sparging, once you reach your boil volume are you left with a mash tun full of liquid 1" above grain level? What do you do with the remaining low gravity liquid? Pour it down the drain?


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## Don

MontPel said:


> With fly sparging, once you reach your boil volume are you left with a mash tun full of liquid 1" above grain level? What do you do with the remaining low gravity liquid? Pour it down the drain?


Yes. Its no good. Just let it drain off in a bucket or sink and discard the grain. Remaining wort below 1.010 will be full of hash tannins.


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## gibbocore

Awesome, thanks Don, much appreciated


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## Crusty

Hi guys.
I currently have a 30A control panel from The Electric Brewery but am looking for ideas to change how the herms operates. Instead of running through the full volume of the HLT, slower ramp times, I'm trying to devise another smaller vessel that will house the herms but still use the panel as is with the 3 PID's & timer. Two 5500w elements run this system with a 3 way selector switch to run either the HLT element or the boil kettle element, not at the same time. Looking for the brains trust amongst us for a solution & ideas. Check out their website for clarity.
Cheers


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## Don

Crusty said:


> Hi guys.
> I currently have a 30A control panel from The Electric Brewery but am looking for ideas to change how the herms operates. Instead of running through the full volume of the HLT, slower ramp times, I'm trying to devise another smaller vessel that will house the herms but still use the panel as is with the 3 PID's & timer. Two 5500w elements run this system with a 3 way selector switch to run either the HLT element or the boil kettle element, not at the same time. Looking for the brains trust amongst us for a solution & ideas. Check out their website for clarity.
> Cheers


Electrically a second switch coming off after the HLT selected side of the 3 way element switch that will give you the option of selecting the HLT or the 4th vessel (Small Herms vessel). But controlling a 4th vessel with olny 3 pids is a bit more tricky. ???. Just maybe there could be a idea of turning the smaller vessels (your planned Herms) into the main HLT and having your sparge tank ran off a 2nd herms system to heat the sparge water. Does that make sence? Swap out the big HLT vessel with the smaller unit to control your mashing. Then run a a second herms and pump to heat up the big reserve HLT vessel when required. That's what I would do. At start of brew day. Select the Hlt, heat water in the small vessel and run the second herms and pump to bring up temp to the same temp in the larger sparge/reserve HLT using the one PID controller in the small vessel. Once ready to start mashing just switch off the pump to reserve HLT herms. That way it wont suck the heat out of your new smaller mashing HLT while doing a mash out. And the reserve tank will sit being nice and hot. Actually this would be the simplest way of doing it. A second herms and pump to heat the big reservoir off the smaller unit. Actually this setup would almost be like a large Rims system


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## Crusty

Don said:


> Electrically a second switch coming off after the HLT selected side of the 3 way element switch that will give you the option of selecting the HLT or the 4th vessel (Small Herms vessel). But controlling a 4th vessel with olny 3 pids is a bit more tricky. ???. Just maybe there could be a idea of turning the smaller vessels (your planned Herms) into the main HLT and having your sparge tank ran off a 2nd herms system to heat the sparge water. Does that make sence? Swap out the big HLT vessel with the smaller unit to control your mashing. Then run a a second herms and pump to heat up the big reserve HLT vessel when required. That's what I would do. At start of brew day. Select the Hlt, heat water in the small vessel and run the second herms and pump to bring up temp to the same temp in the larger sparge/reserve HLT using the one PID controller in the small vessel. Once ready to start mashing just switch off the pump to reserve HLT herms. That way it wont suck the heat out of your new smaller mashing HLT while doing a mash out. And the reserve tank will sit being nice and hot. Actually this would be the simplest way of doing it. A second herms and pump to heat the big reservoir off the smaller unit. Actually this setup would almost be like a large Rims system



Awesome buddy.
Exactly the ideas I'm looking for. I never thought about a second herms so this might just work.


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## Don

Crusty said:


> Hi guys.
> I currently have a 30A control panel from The Electric Brewery but am looking for ideas to change how the herms operates. Instead of running through the full volume of the HLT, slower ramp times, I'm trying to devise another smaller vessel that will house the herms but still use the panel as is with the 3 PID's & timer. Two 5500w elements run this system with a 3 way selector switch to run either the HLT element or the boil kettle element, not at the same time. Looking for the brains trust amongst us for a solution & ideas. Check out their website for





Crusty said:


> Awesome buddy.
> Exactly the ideas I'm looking for. I never thought about a second herms so this might just work.


Actually wouldn't even need the second herms just able to pump water between the two.


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## Crusty

Cheers all.
Some ideas to consider.


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## Vic

Crusty said:


> Cheers all.
> Some ideas to consider.


What volume are you doing? I have converted my 3V system to a 4V system some months ago to get more responsive ramp time and it has worked very well. It involves a relay to always give HLT1 (small volume herms vessel) priortiy allowing the larger HLT2 (Hotter sparge water) to heat up during the mash. Only one element can run at a time. Maybe this could solve your problem. More details & circuit details on request.


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## macca1

Crusty said:


> Hi guys.
> I currently have a 30A control panel from The Electric Brewery but am looking for ideas to change how the herms operates. Instead of running through the full volume of the HLT, slower ramp times, I'm trying to devise another smaller vessel that will house the herms but still use the panel as is with the 3 PID's & timer. Two 5500w elements run this system with a 3 way selector switch to run either the HLT element or the boil kettle element, not at the same time. Looking for the brains trust amongst us for a solution & ideas. Check out their website for clarity.
> Cheers


Hey crusty any chance of a photo of the back panel build or type of relays amps etc cheers


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## philrob

Hope you get an answer. The thread is 3 years old. Might be best to send a PM to crusty.


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