# Ag Seems Expensive,am I Missing Something



## fergi (30/1/11)

getting ready to try my first AG, but my calculations shows i need about 5kg of grain, approx , plus the hops, this seems to be around the 30 dollar mark for a 23 litre batch , plus the cost of gas and time involved, although i am anxious to try AG i thought it was supposed to work out cheaper than buying kits and bits. maybe i missing something here.

fergi


----------



## manticle (30/1/11)

Savings come when you buy grain in bulk, reharvest yeast, buy large stocks of hops rather than 90g bags etc.

However most of my extract brews easily hit the 30-50 dollar mark and I wasn't using liquid yeasts then.

You can save on gas by buying an immersion element (I have and use both gas and electric and love both for different reasons)

Compare to commercial beer of your choice.

Time is something I enjoy spending when I'm brewing. Once you've got your processes down and relax, it can be one of the most soothing things to do at home - like taking your time to cook something special.


----------



## [email protected] (30/1/11)

Dont let cost get in the way of a good beer.

I am only brewing small 8 - 10 L batches AG , i order my recipes as i go which is the most expensive way of doing it,
but i have to rely on post so i have limiting factors.

As Manticle said , learning to reuse liquid yeasts is a good start to saving money, and IMO improving your brews.
Get a foodsaver and buy bigger lots of hops, then store vac packed in freezer.

BUt after all is said and done, my brews still end up cheaper than if i had used extract (excepts kit and kilo).
I end up around 60c to $1 a 330ml beer, depending on many factors. This is still a lot cheaper than buying bottles of beer from the bottlo or club/pub
and its beer i really enjoy brewing and drinking.


----------



## mxd (30/1/11)

as manticle says, plus if you have a search you'll see people talking about prices. The best and most appropriate comments is "we spend a lot of money to make cheap beer"

on average my APA 40 ltr is something like the following

10 kg grain ($20)
170g of hops ($5)
2 yeast dry ($9) I have slants so can be cheaper.
Gas ($4)

So around $1 a litre

But I have around $300 worth of ingredients (grain and hops) that could go bad

I'm not too sure if yo'll get cheaper than K+K, should be cheaper that extract, cheaper the a Brew on Premise place, as for kit and bit that depends on the bits you put in, i.e if you do a better yeast and hops then it probably will.


----------



## Acasta (30/1/11)

Don't forget the quality of the product you produce! Its worth it, and definitely produces a higher quality of beer for you to enjoy. As manticle said, get in on bulk buys and in no time you be right. Enjoy!


----------



## Gout (30/1/11)

i think when you sample your first AG beer you will forget the costs.

However as the guys say, buy in bulk and prices fall


----------



## lczaban (30/1/11)

I would say the cost saving when doing AG comes with the beers you produce. If you are trying to produce megaswill then the prices of commercial vs K&K vs extract vs AG probably fluctuate, and you have to evaluate the quality of the final product against the price and time it takes to produce it. I think personally the cost saving comes into brewing more exotics beer clones and styles - you definitely get a better quality beer and have more control over the outcome when doing AG compared with other types of brewing, you get satisfaction over the creative control of making the beer yourself, and when compared with the commercial cost of brewing even a "mainstream" craft beer (think Squires/Matilda Bay/Little Creatures etc etc) vs the $50 - $80/carton price at the bottlo, the cost saving speaks for itself...

Cheers! :chug:


----------



## Tanga (30/1/11)

I see you're in SA fergi (South Australia I presume - though I don't know where Hamley Bridge is). If you want to stick with the all grain I recommend going through Brew Adelaide (south) or Beer Belly (north) for your grain. Either of them can crush them for you and put them in recipe bags.

Much cheaper than going through your local homebrew store (I looked at the grain there once - yowzer!)

If you're sure you're going to stick with it then talk to them about a 25kg prebuy. I know Brew Adelaide do it - it's like having a tab on grain. You get the discounted (bulk) price for your grain that way (about 1/3 less through Brew Adelaide).


----------



## Tony (30/1/11)

If AG cost twice what it costs, id still do it.

The beer is better than i can buy
ITs fun to make
I know whats in it
and my friends and family appreciate the beer and the work that goes into it

love it and forget the cost


----------



## raven19 (30/1/11)

Tony said:


> If AG cost twice what it costs, id still do it.
> 
> The beer is better than i can buy
> ITs fun to make
> ...



Well said Tony. +1


----------



## fergi (30/1/11)

thanks for replies. i am not really complaining about the outlay i was more surprised at the cost compared to my kit and kilos,i like to think i make some nice k&k beers but i want to go the next step to see if AG is worth the extra effort.i am going to try something like a golden ale.
fergi


----------



## Tony (30/1/11)

sounds awsome mate

have fun and enjoy every smell, sight, up, down and taste on your AG adventure 

cheers :beerbang:


----------



## manticle (30/1/11)

Tony said:


> If AG cost twice what it costs, id still do it.



Me too. I'd have to eat less or buy less records or something but counting the cost is something I long ago gave away.

Buying in bulk has the advantage of saving money but the main reason I do it is so I have ingredients on hand to brew whatever I feel like that week.


Fergi - just have a crack. It's a lot of fun, even when the recipe/ferment doesn't work out. Best thing about AG is the complete freedom to brew anything you want. Research a historical regional style, tweak it to taste and you have beer you could never buy anywhere.


----------



## Nick JD (30/1/11)

You can buy PoR and Cluster for under $30 a kg and all the awesome US hops for $30 or less a kg (+ postage, still half price). That's hops being an almost incidental cost. $30 a kg = $2.70 for 90g.

Grain in 25kg sacks is $55 for Aussie stuff. A few kg of nice German spec malts to tart your recipe up and you are making 20L for $10 if you reuse your yeast. 

50c a liter. You can't buy water for that.

Sure, if you are making Belgian Dubbels then it's not 50c a liter ... but at $9 a stubbie for Chimay - still crazy cheap - and show me a good K&K Belgian Dubbel recipe.

Remember to compare K&K with a bland, badly-made Aussie lager AG, and even then it's not comparible.


----------



## rangaz (30/1/11)

Just need to find the right place to get stuff from and buy in bulk
I pay 
$2/kg for base malt (in 25kg bags), a little more for specialty (2-5kg bags) from TWOC
$20-30 per 500g for hops sourced locally and ordered from nikobrew in the US (they're selling cascade for $10/lb btw  ). postage from US is about $13 for 3lb
and yeast I reuse so many times I don't even count it in the cost
about $5 for gas and $2 for CO2
total usually comes up around $1/L for me.

I've also started malting high grade barley from my family farm so grain no longer costs me anything but time and I've got a first year cascade plant starting to flower, but I do it for fun not cost savings.


----------



## bignath (30/1/11)

I do 4kg grain bills (nothing too big i know..) gravity usually around 1.042, which means because i buy by the sack, my grain bill costs a paultry $8 per batch.
I typically do single malt beers at the moment. Have done more varied grain bills before but i'm liking the idea of isolating the single malt flavour of the grain to get a good idea on different hops.

Hops - i dunno, maybe adds a dollar to a brew....once again buy in bulk...

Yeast - $4 roughly a batch as i don't re-use yet. Would like to one day experiment with this...

total cost for a 20Lt batch is around $13-14. And it's kick ass beer. I've catered 40th birthdays with this beer with awesome reviews and requests for supplying beer to friends (which i've since turned down by the way.)

A typical can of goo (coopers) from a supermarket or LHBS will set you back $13 for an international series can, and the yeast is still shitty, with no flavour or aroma hops accounted for. 

In my opinion, the more effort you put in to your brewday, by using fresh, bulk purchased ingredients, the cheaper it gets to brew.

The BEST thing i have bought for my brewery EVER has been a mill. Once i had that, it's easy to buy in bulk and save.

Nath


----------



## Tony (30/1/11)

VB carton (9 liters) at $40 = $4.44 a liter

Schooner of VB at the pub @ $4.20 is $11.20 a liter (that makes me sick to be honest)

Bottle of Weihenstephaner Weisbier @ $5.50 for 500ml is $11 a liter

brew it yourself for $1 a liter

Where does the expensive bit come in again............ you lost me!


----------



## bcp (30/1/11)

I remember getting the same surprise. It's counter-intuitive, because usually the more highly processed something is, the more you pay - so you expect bread to be more expensive than flour yeast and... whatever else it has. It doesn't work with a/g brewing because we buy small quantities.

Savings do come from -
* Buying base grains in bulk
* Buying hops in larger quantities (once you know what you use a lot of)
* Culturing yeasts (I use wyeast @$15/hit - so the occasional reculture is really worth it)

Benefits come from - 
* Complete control of the product. You can produce any beer your way in a way that kits don't allow you. 
* Freshness, particularly with hop flavour and aroma
* The love of the process


----------



## bradsbrew (30/1/11)

Tony said:


> VB carton (9 liters) at $40 = $4.44 a liter
> 
> Schooner of VB at the pub @ $4.20 is $11.20 a liter (that makes me sick to be honest)
> 
> ...



Spot on Tony. On the rare occasion that I go to Dans or 1st choice and grab a couple of imported ESB's I leave the receipt on the kitchen bench so SWMBO sees it. At $8 for a 500ml bottle thats the best way to get myself more brewing time


----------



## [email protected] (30/1/11)

bradsbrew said:


> Spot on Tony. On the rare occasion that I go to Dans or 1st choice and grab a couple of imported ESB's I leave the receipt on the kitchen bench so SWMBO sees it. At $8 for a 500ml bottle thats the best way to get myself more brewing time



haha yes i like to take my mrs through dans sometimes and point out that this is cheap alcohol, but compared to my expensive ways of brewing its still truckloads cheaper than buying beers.

I went to the pub the other day for the first time in a long time and payed $4.70 for a schooner of VB, it was cold and pretty clean but pretty boring as well..


----------



## warra48 (30/1/11)

My AG brews costs me nothing. I've set all my prices in BeerSmith to $0.00.

If you are concerned about the cost, you are in it for the wrong reasons.

I brew AG because I treat it as a hobby, and it's something I hugely enjoy doing. I love the process, and I love the beers I produce. To my mind they are as good as most things I could buy commercially. For example, I enjoyed an Erdinger Dunkelweizen from an imported keg yesterday as I had lunch with mrs warra. As I drank it, I couldn't help thinking that my brews were just as good.

I have a real budget set-up, but I'm constantly amazed that I can actually produce beer with a similar system to what the commercial boys and girls do. It's fun, and it's fun to contemplate each day which craft brewed beer I will choose as my daily tipple.

As a hobby, it's actually quite an economical one compared to a lot of other more exotic ones.


----------



## beerbog (30/1/11)

I did a costing a couple of months ago. I use BIAB with gas and the figures came out at $30 for 2 cartons of top shelf craft brewed quality beer. 

As all the others have said, buy in bulk and that saves a truck load. As with everything, initial setups can be a little costly but it sure does pay itself off very quickly. 

:beerbang:

P.S - Only my grain is bought in bulk, hops by the 100g lot and yeast is single use only, mainly dry, have used liquid once. :beerbang:


----------



## DKS (30/1/11)

As a hobby, it's actually quite an economical one compared to a lot of other more exotic ones.
[/quote]

Good point. Not even the exotic ones.Spend a day doing average day out things say for 1/2 a day.
Go to the footy $100.00
Game of golf $100.00
Fishing $100.00 etc etc 
Scary init!
Daz


----------



## humulus (30/1/11)

fergi said:


> getting ready to try my first AG, but my calculations shows i need about 5kg of grain, approx , plus the hops, this seems to be around the 30 dollar mark for a 23 litre batch , plus the cost of gas and time involved, although i am anxious to try AG i thought it was supposed to work out cheaper than buying kits and bits. maybe i missing something here.
> 
> fergi


As they all say the satisfaction is in enjoying what you make!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## kelbygreen (30/1/11)

People say extract is expensive? again buy in bulk you will be surprised here is what my brew today cost

42lts 

4.6kg LDME $25.30
Dex 400g 80c
600g caramunich 2 $2.40
60g choc 30c
willamette hops say $10 
yeast $8.50 
=$47.30 

so say $1.13 per liter but the malt and dex is bulk I have bulk hops here but willamette was not one of them so that can get cheaper also you could reuse the yeast but I havnt yet


----------



## Cocko (30/1/11)

warra48 said:


> As a hobby, it's actually quite an economical one compared to a lot of other more exotic ones.




Yep, as a hobby point of view, I guess you could be watching a tiny little train travel around a track OR DRINKING AWESOME BEER!!


A passion is great to have about your hobby, so OP, take it as far as you can afford and more so enjoy!... but if you choose AG brewing you end up with beautiful beer!

BEER! 

Its a win win.


----------



## fergi (30/1/11)

whoooa guys, read the posts properly, i "SAID i thought ag would work out cheaper than my K&K, NOT COMMERCIAL BOUGHT BEER, HOW THE HELL DID YOU READ THAT IN MY POST,if we are throwing prices around then it costs me about 80 cents a litre not $5 a glass, but i get what you are all saying and i agree its cheaper than buying commercial but thats not what i was comparing it too. if it costs me more thats fine as well because from what you AG guys are saying is its like chalk and cheese between K&K AND AG,i hope its going to be worth the effort, as i said my kits and bits that i make turn out very drinkable and i am looking forward to the next step.
cheers

fergi


----------



## kelbygreen (30/1/11)

Yeah I agree fergi. Only thing stopping me from going AG is I have about 4 hours free a week and thats sunday arvo so with the lawn and other work to do its a bit hard to spend 4 hours brewing when I dont have the time to do it unless I get setup to do about 90lts a time then it might be worth it lol


----------



## beerbog (30/1/11)

fergi said:


> its like chalk and cheese between K&K AND AG,i hope its going to be worth the effort
> cheers
> 
> fergi



It is and you will love it. :beerbang:


----------



## DUANNE (30/1/11)

i found in my search for better beer ive lost count of the costs.i buy grain and hops in bulk but find that yeast is my biggest cost now. yes i have bank of sorts in the fridge but always seem to be buying another new strain for each brew just because i can.i also found that extract is more expensive than k+k but ag is cheaper than extract.but if i try to acount for the 2 fridges and freezer and equipment costs as i get more involved buying beer probably aint that bad a choice financially. but what price do you put on a beer youve cloned and do side by side taste tests with friends and they prefer youre beer? the satisfaction that you made it yourself? to me, to quote an ad, PRICELESS!


----------



## Crusty (30/1/11)

fergi,
moving on from your K&K to AG will be one of the best decisions you will make my friend, guaranteed.
The choice of AG recipes is almost endless & the profile of the beer can be adjusted to suit yourself. You may brew your first Ale & realise it's the best beer you've ever had & next time round you may like to make it not so bitter, a bit more bitter, slightly maltier & so on. The recipe can be custom made to suit yourself. AG is definately more expensive than K&K but you will soon discover the awesome taste an AG has over a well made K&K, they are not in the same league. My last APA cost me around $40.00 delivered for all the ingredients, 1.048, 5.1kg grain, liquid yeast for my starter, 23 drinkable litres @4.8%. I too would be still making it if the price was double.


----------



## bignath (30/1/11)

fergi said:


> whoooa guys, read the posts properly, i "SAID i thought ag would work out cheaper than my K&K, NOT COMMERCIAL BOUGHT BEER, HOW THE HELL DID YOU READ THAT IN MY POST,if we are throwing prices around then it costs me about 80 cents a litre not $5 a glass, but i get what you are all saying and i agree its cheaper than buying commercial but thats not what i was comparing it too. if it costs me more thats fine as well because from what you AG guys are saying is its like chalk and cheese between K&K AND AG,i hope its going to be worth the effort, as i said my kits and bits that i make turn out very drinkable and i am looking forward to the next step.
> cheers
> 
> fergi




Hi Fergi,

my previous post is post #16. i agree that other's have been comparing to commercial beer, but at it's most basic level, (but still awesome beer) unless you are paying less than say $14 for a K&B recipe list, it is cheaper to go AG once you have a mill and can take advantage of bulk buy prices.

I know it may take a little bit of expense to "set up for AG" but once you do, you will pay it back in no time at all. It's awesome looking at a collection of 6 dry yeasts, a 25kg sack of grain, and a freezer full of hops and think:

"this cost me $80 and i can get six batches (12 boxes of beer) out of this".

Cheers,
Nath

ps: i was in the supermarket the other day, and they were clearing out the coopers tins (international series which retail at around $13) for $6.50 a tin. I KEPT WALKING. My rationale was, why bother with it, when i'm only going to want to drink my AG beers instead. And let's face it, prices like that on the "better" tins don't come around unless they are trying to dump them from their inventory. And at $13 for the better tin of goo, by the time you add a better yeast, and some hops, youve spent $20 bucks anyway.


----------



## Hatchy (30/1/11)

I found kits pretty expensive due to buying hops & yeast to go with them. I reckon I get change from $30 for a 35L batch buying grain at bulk prices & hops from the states where possible. My kegs have been my main brewing expense so far but that was definately money well spent.


----------



## kenlock (30/1/11)

kelbygreen said:


> Yeah I agree fergi. Only thing stopping me from going AG is I have about 4 hours free a week and thats sunday arvo so with the lawn and other work to do its a bit hard to spend 4 hours brewing when I dont have the time to do it unless I get setup to do about 90lts a time then it might be worth it lol



*Set timer to pre-heat HLT ready to mash-in upon waking. 
*Mash grain for min 60 minutes, mow lawn as it sits at mash temp. 
*Mash Out and sparge. 
*Begin boil - 60 - 90 minutes. Simpliest - all hops at 10 minutes (but pre-measured hops with a stop watch/iphone alarm won't be much time). 
*Flame out, no chill. Clean. 
*Should allow sufficient time to other things and brew. 
*If you do double batches you get twice as much beer for pretty much the same time (larger the liquid, the larger the time to get to boil. 5 - 10 minutes more). Or 90lt batches should keep you going for a while.

Note: Look into Partigyle brewing or similar, this could also prove time efficient.

Cheers Ken


----------



## barls (30/1/11)

depending on the batch my ag costs me between 20 and 80 bucks. the 80 buck one is my braggot which has almost 5kg of blood wood honey in it.


----------



## BobtheBrewer (31/1/11)

I once came across a lady (who spent half of each year on a boat) who said that she could get two brews out of each home brand tin of gunk. She thought she made a great drop, I don't think I can tell you what I thought of the 2ml I tried. Back to the original thread, K&K can get a bit expensive if you use malt and hops, and perhaps a bit of grain, but you are limited, to a great extent, to the basic kit you are using. There is no limit to what you can brew AG. I've only done 9 BIABs but I'm ready to lash out and try something radical, like using Perle. As others have said, cost is only relative to what you think your product is worth.


----------



## Bribie G (31/1/11)

It also depends on what style you prefer. Nick JD for example turns out a mean Aussie style lager with balls that sets him back less than $15 a brew. I can do my Yorkshire Gold - a strong golden summer ale for a tad less than $20, with a few dollars more for a similar strength Red or APA

5 kg pale malt $9.50
500 polenta $2.
300 sugar .30

50g Challenger $ 3
50g Styrians $ 3

Yeast n bits n electricity $2

But again as mentioned in many of the posts above that depends on bulk buys and yeast farming. In my kits days I could easily spend $14 on a can of Morgans, $5 on spec grains buying them a kilo at a time and $5 on a sachet of dried yeast so would often end up spending more like $25 to $30 on a kits n bits.


----------



## DU99 (31/1/11)

the initial cost of equipment will make it seem expensive,but in the long run you will see the cost saving.i am playing with stepping kits,can of goo $15,stepping kit $5,two 5g packets S33 yeast $2.20.about $1 a litre.


----------



## argon (31/1/11)

All this has inspired me to get a mill from the states and bulk buy everything... Sick of buying each recipe as I go. Even at $1/L it's still not bad. But money's money. If I can bet the same results for less then why not?


----------



## DU99 (31/1/11)

> Even at $1/L it's still not bad


VB 750ml single bottle approx $4.50 -$5.00..and thats on special...


----------



## Howlingdog (31/1/11)

As I read somewhere - "Homebrewers will go to any expense to make cheap beer".


----------



## sav (31/1/11)

This was the argument I had with the wife when I said I was going to all grain to get rid of the kits I was doing kits double the malt and finishing hops and I was still buying coopers pale ale because the beer I was making was still average.

After a few ags under your belt you will start accumulating Hops grain spare yeast etc.The quality of the beer is second to none and I prefer to drink the beers that I make than what I would buy.

But there is cost of brewery equipment even if you BIAB there is a cost so in the end its a great hobby and even if it costs triple I would do it because its a hobby that I love and the rewards is beer that I made from scratch.


sav


----------



## Bribie G (31/1/11)

There's always the All Grain price shock desensitisation syndrome to take into account as well (the AGPSDS)
It usually runs along these lines, each stage happening faster and faster:


How I wish I could afford an urn
Wow it's tax rebate time, I might just sneak that urn in 
I love my urn but bigger batches would be better, I'll buy another one
In two weeks time
Woot - hey Neville has RO water systems on special only $250 - grab one of those suckers
And a mill
And a kegerator
Make that a three tap font
Four sacks of grain for less than $200? hey count me into the bulk buy guys make that five sacks
Dear Ellerslie hop please send my your latest catalogue and advise cost of posting ten kilos of hops
Ten kegs? God how can I manage with such a small number - gotta have another 4 before Friday or I'll freak. Think of all the money I'll save. 
 B) 

Slippery slippery slope.

Edit: Ask PaulH, he'll concur:


----------



## DU99 (31/1/11)

TO ABOVE
Then minister of finance will wonder where you have been for 4-5hrs..and whats that wonderful smell..smell of malt :icon_drool2: and hops


----------



## geoff_tewierik (31/1/11)

No way that's Pauls setup! Man barely has time for this website, apart from his really stale jokes, how's he find the time to brew that many beers?


----------



## Tanga (31/1/11)

fergi said:


> whoooa guys, read the posts properly, i "SAID i thought ag would work out cheaper than my K&K, NOT COMMERCIAL BOUGHT BEER, HOW THE HELL DID YOU READ THAT IN MY POST,if we are throwing prices around then it costs me about 80 cents a litre not $5 a glass, but i get what you are all saying and i agree its cheaper than buying commercial but thats not what i was comparing it too. if it costs me more thats fine as well because from what you AG guys are saying is its like chalk and cheese between K&K AND AG,i hope its going to be worth the effort, as i said my kits and bits that i make turn out very drinkable and i am looking forward to the next step.
> cheers
> 
> fergi



Don't worry Fergi. I don't think this thread is about that any more. I think it's morphed into a 'why AG rocks' thread. I must say this thread is making me think.


----------



## bignath (31/1/11)

argon said:


> All this has inspired me to get a mill from the states and bulk buy everything... Sick of buying each recipe as I go. Even at $1/L it's still not bad. But money's money. If I can bet the same results for less then why not?



Do it mate, you won't look back. I got mine pretty cheap, and the cost savings alone from buying bulk meant that after i finished my first sack of grain, i had made my money back on the mill.



DU99 said:


> VB 750ml single bottle approx $4.50 -$5.00..and thats on special...




And it's VB.....


----------



## drew9242 (31/1/11)

I found from where i live if i made K&K that it was more expensive then AG. For me the basic tin was not good enough. So i had to buy bits and pieces to add and before i knew it i was spending $40-$50 a 22L brew. Now my cheapest lawnmower beer which my mates love to drink costs less then 20buks.

Grain 4.5kg = $9
Rice .5kg = $2
Hops = $1.50 (12g of Northern Brewer)
Yeast = $2.00
Gas = $5.00
Total = $19.50

And best thing about this beer it is surprisingly yummy. But this is not the only good cheap recipe out there, the oppurtunitys are endless, that is the beauty of AG.


----------



## fcmcg (31/1/11)

fergi said:


> whoooa guys, read the posts properly, i "SAID i thought ag would work out cheaper than my K&K, NOT COMMERCIAL BOUGHT BEER, HOW THE HELL DID YOU READ THAT IN MY POST,if we are throwing prices around then it costs me about 80 cents a litre not $5 a glass, but i get what you are all saying and i agree its cheaper than buying commercial but thats not what i was comparing it too. if it costs me more thats fine as well because from what you AG guys are saying is its like chalk and cheese between K&K AND AG,i hope its going to be worth the effort, as i said my kits and bits that i make turn out very drinkable and i am looking forward to the next step.
> cheers
> 
> fergi


So to put this back on to your original topic , yes i think i did originally think ,that by going all grain, that it would work out cheaper than K&K...
Yes , i too was breing K&K beers for about fifty cents a glass....
AG for me seemed all to difficult , especially as i didn't want to muck it up....and i needed alot more gear besides a can opener and a fermenter...
But then i did my first AG ( after 10 years of kits ) and i have never wanted to brew anything else since...

I will say that yes , AG is now costing me a bit more than i thought it was going too...but then i am really into the hobby...and it is a hobby...

I WILL spend the extra money getting a liquid yeast if i'm making a special beer ( belg/cal common / kolsch etc) 
To put it into perspective and use a Belgian beer as an example...

Yes you can buy a "belgian ale kit" and i did them and they were nice and they cost me a dollar a glass 
But the reality is that the yeast was wrong ( kit supplied dry yeast that didn't impart any of the flavours of the style , so therefore the beer was not really a good example or true to style...especially when compared to a Belgian commercial beer...
Tthat's not to say that the Belgian's i AG brew do any better lol , but at least i know my mash temp's , i can use a proper yeast and grain from Belgium....
I guess at the end of the day , for me , it really isn't about the cost anymore...it's about making the best quality beer i can make , from scratch...
It is a hobby . You will always find people who want to make the cheapest possible beer that they can and i don't have a problem with that....i don't have to drink it ....
For me it is about enjoying the creative side of the whole thing , tinkering with my brewery , understanding yeasts , recipes etc....and making good quality beer that i cannot buy...
So if you want to make cheapish AG beer , do BIAB , use dry yeast and bottle your beer....but look out because once you've had for first AG , that you made , you will probably get on that slippery slope...and you may want toys...like me lol
3 tier brewery , 3 fridges , 3 beer taps , 12 kegs , kilo's of hops , stainleess bling etc etc
OR
If you just want to make really cheap beer...
Keep up with your current brewing and enjoy it for what it is....
Anyway...i hope i've stayed on topic and not gone into the AG is better than kits rant....
Good luck , whatever you decide to do !
Cheers
Ferg ( not Fergi !!!!!)


----------



## Nick JD (31/1/11)

Apples and apples.

You get some half-mouldy, stale grain with a couple of clumps of ratshit in it and a thin layer of mold; mash it at a vastly unstable temperature starting at 70C dropping to 61C in an hour; boil it for 25 minutes adding some isohop at the end for 20 IBUs; ferment it with underpitched, old yeast at 24C; bottle it in slightly suspect bottles and drink it after only 5 days conditioning.

That's how to make AG beer comparible to K&K.  

Much cheaper, and tasting about the same.


----------



## flano (31/1/11)

I get one 25kg bag of base malt - JW trad.
Then get other smaller amounts of other grains as I go.

works out cheap.


----------



## big78sam (31/1/11)

It's all been said above but my 2c are:

If you're looking at cost only, 1 coopers tin plus the kit yeast. Cheap as!!! 

I buy my grain in bulk at around $40 for a 25kg bag so that's about $1.50 per KG, base malt a bit cheaper, specialty more expensive but is a much smaller percentage of the grain bill. This is around $7-10 for a basic batch. Hops between $5 to $20 depending on the brew. It can be done for as cheap as $15 for 23L. That is heaps cheaper than when I was doing kits and bits or extract

Yeast you need to provide regardless of whether it's K&B or AG (assuming you're not using the crap kit yeast)

Of course this is dependent on buying a mill but with the Aussie dollar as it is now it's doable for around $150. My mill was a great investment. There's now no need for me to drive to grain and grape for every batch I want to do. A couple of bags of base plus a selection of specialty malts and I'm set. I worked out the mill will pay for itself in savings in around a year.

IMHO, the real saving are bulk grain, bulk hops and using 1 smackpack of yeast for several brews.


----------



## bignath (31/1/11)

My mill cost me $165 delivered from a forum member, but it was a new mill still in the plastic bag with instructions from Crankandstein.

A 25kg bag costs me $55 and i get six batches out of it.

Before my mill, i was spending around $30-$40 per recipe. I now spend $15 or so...

So half price brewing compared to before i had the mill means i save $15 minimum on brewing a batch.

6 X $15 savings = $90

So my mill is paid off after i got 2/3 the way through my second bag. Or, my 10th AG batch. Then you continue to save after that.

If i do say, 15-20 batches a year, and i am saving my $15 minimum per batch, then i have saved around $300 by buying a mill and getting bulk grain. 

Sounds pretty good to me....


----------



## Mikedub (31/1/11)

Tanga said:


> Don't worry Fergi. I don't think this thread is about that any more. I think it's morphed into a 'why AG rocks' thread. I must say this thread is making me think.




Why AG rocks

standing around the backyard on a hot Australia day with doz people enjoying your beer, saying things like "man this is awesome, how do you make it? ", you reply " i make it from scratch, grain, hops, yeast ", they say "you should sell this, yada yada, you say, "its not about money, man" :icon_cheers:


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (31/1/11)

Even without buying bulk grain, good beer can still be made cheap. From a site sponsor:

4kg Bairds Perle Malt (nice and malty, works in a variety of ales) x $3.50/kg (discount for >= 4kg) milled = $14.00
Nottingham Yeast $3.50 (and that's without reharvesting)
1/2 pack of Citra hops $4 - 15g at 40, 15 and 0 minutes = 45g (1/2x 90g).

Total cost (rounded up) $21.50.

Fantastically easy Pale Ale.

All I needed to start was the BIAB voile, 2 big w pots. Now have a mashtun from an esky I purchased cheap on ebay and converted.

Satisfaction from brewing a damn good beer, that everyone who tries it says "this is seriously good" is priceless.

Goomba


----------



## fergi (31/1/11)

Nick JD said:


> Apples and apples.
> 
> You get some half-mouldy, stale grain with a couple of clumps of ratshit in it and a thin layer of mold; mash it at a vastly unstable temperature starting at 70C dropping to 61C in an hour; boil it for 25 minutes adding some isohop at the end for 20 IBUs; ferment it with underpitched, old yeast at 24C; bottle it in slightly suspect bottles and drink it after only 5 days conditioning.
> 
> ...




um no it wouldnt be as good as my k&k, i am not going to get into the bash about whats best, i KNOW AG is superior to kits, that is not what i posted , this thread is now getting completely off what the original post was about

fergi


----------



## Nick JD (31/1/11)

That's not off topic at all, you just don't agree. Why are you being an :icon_offtopic: nazi?


----------



## mh971 (31/1/11)

fergi said:


> um no it wouldnt be as good as my k&k, i am not going to get into the bash about whats best, i KNOW AG is superior to kits, that is not what i posted , this thread is now getting completely off what the original post was about
> 
> fergi



Ferg,

Just browsed this topic while drinking my fifth AG attempt, the first one I really took seriously. It's Tony's LCBA recipe. 

I love Little Creatures Bright Ale but its $60 a carton. Dinking this I reckon I like Tony's recipe more and I still can't believe I can make this and it can be so good. Especially as I am a real hack, and don't take it all that seriously compared to most on here.

Either I just saved $90 or I am drinking much more high quality beer than I could afford to buy, either way is a massive win.

The process of all grain seems so much more natural than opening a can too.


----------



## Tanga (31/1/11)

Nick JD said:


> That's not off topic at all, you just don't agree. Why are you being an :icon_offtopic: nazi?



He's defending his post - don't be brat Nick.

Hey Fergi,

I know it's probably frustrating for you, but chances are most people in your thread haven't even read the initial topic you posted (yeah, totally frustrating). Don't sweat it - no-one's judging you and what you asked, they're just having a good time bragging about how good their AG is. =p

I'm a kit brewer, who's only started playing around with extra stuff. Congrats on going all grain, and I totally see where you're coming from being surprised that less processed is more expensive than highly processed (ie kits). It's counter-intuitive, but probably based on current transport costs. Extract (especially in the kits) is concentrated, so 2kg / brew vs 5 kg / brew. Also other market pressures - storage times, etc.

Hope this thread hasn't killed your buzz - it's a perfectly reasonable question. Don't worry about the tangents - it's what makes things interesting, and no-one will blame you for the randomness. They're having fun =).


----------



## pbrosnan (31/1/11)

fergi said:


> getting ready to try my first AG, but my calculations shows i need about 5kg of grain, approx , plus the hops, this seems to be around the 30 dollar mark for a 23 litre batch , plus the cost of gas and time involved, although i am anxious to try AG i thought it was supposed to work out cheaper than buying kits and bits. maybe i missing something here.
> 
> fergi


I would've thought that AG was more expensive than kits and bits but less expensive than buying beer of similar variety and quality. And of course it's a hobby so who cares how much it costs.


----------



## ekul (31/1/11)

Buying in bulk is the key. Below is a price comparison between buying a single batch and a double batch from craftbrewer

single batch coopers pale ale clone
3.5kg ale malt $14
200g wheat malt $0.80
30g dark crystal $0.17
Pride of ringwood flowers $7 (but you will have enough for 3 batches)
Postage $10.20
total from craft brewer $32.17 (you'd need to add 650g of sugar and gas to this recipe for an accurate costing)

Double batch
7kg ale malt $21
400g wheat malt $1.6
60g dark crystal $0.33
Pride of ringwood flowers $7 (but you will have enough for 3 batches)
Postage $16.95

total $46.88
per batch $23.44 thats nearly a $10 saving! (you'd need to add 650g of sugar and gas to this recipe for an accurate costing)


Further bulk buying will save you even more...

For the above recipe i pay...

3.5kg ale malt $5.6
200g wheat $0.28
dark crystal $0.17 (i don't get this in bulk)
650g sugar $0.65
yeast $1 ( i reuse the yeast a few times, so each stubbie gives me a few goes)
pride of ringwood $0.72
gas $4

total $12.42 So it gets cheap, you just need to buy in bulk. I use lots of base malt so i buy lots of ale malt. I don't buy spec malts in bulk because a bag of dark crystal would last me literally forever.


----------



## fcmcg (31/1/11)

Mick71 said:


> Ferg,
> 
> Just browsed this topic while drinking my fifth AG attempt, the first one I really took seriously. It's Tony's LCBA recipe.


Mick,
Just so we all aren't confused....
The OP was Fergi....
I'm Ferg...Fergthebrewer...Not the original poster !
:unsure:


----------



## bignath (31/1/11)

Tanga said:


> I totally see where you're coming from being surprised that less processed is more expensive than highly processed (ie kits). It's counter-intuitive, but probably based on current transport costs. Extract (especially in the kits) is concentrated, so 2kg / brew vs 5 kg / brew. Also other market pressures - storage times, etc.




Howdy tanga,

i usually agree with your posts but i think this one's a little incorrect. A lot of people have posted on this thread (myself included) who have clearly indicated that assuming you have the gear to do all grain, it is often cheaper (quite often way cheaper) than a comparable or non comparable recipe using a can and some spec ingredients. 

I would have to say, the less processed our ingredients we use are, the cheaper it becomes to brew as in the end, we are paying for convenience.
I think the cost of setting up to go all grain (particularly 3 vessel form) is probably more a limiting factor than the cost of sourcing ingredients.
As i said before in an earlier post, i left a whole lot of coopers international series tins on the shelf of the supermarket the other day at $6.50 each (half price) because at the end of the day, i can do the same thing for the same price using fresh ingredients, and i am sure it is because i'm not paying anyone to have already made it for me. 

cheers,

nath


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/1/11)

AG may seem expensive first up, especially some of the gear.

But you have to remember that once you have the gear, you will allways have it

Buying in bulk IS the go, depending on where you live, buy sacks of grain, not by the KG

Buy Hops in Bulk, use what you need, the freeze the rest

When you buy grains, use mates, work mates, auties, uncles, whatever to use as deleivery vessels..even see the local trucking companies, you would be suprised what they will do if you ask them  

When ever I know my folks are comoing from Brisbane I get them to pick up an order from CB... saves a LOT of freight $$$


----------



## mh971 (31/1/11)

fergthebrewer said:


> Mick,
> Just so we all aren't confused....
> The OP was Fergi....
> I'm Ferg...Fergthebrewer...Not the original poster !
> :unsure:



No confusion intended bud, 17000 members I am sure there's another Mick somewhere too(happy to introduce some confusion there so we can blame him for any of my awkwardor disjointed posts)


----------



## Tanga (31/1/11)

Good to know Nath - I'm not an AG brewer myself, but am at the stage where I'm keeping an eye out. I guess it pays to shop around. I did post some suggestions earlier that would make the cost comparable to (but not cheaper than) kits. Good to know it can be done.

For me it's definitely the setup costs holding me back. Though I think I may have enough set aside to set up a brew fridge when I get back to Adelaide >.<


----------



## bignath (31/1/11)

Tanga said:


> Good to know Nath - I'm not an AG brewer myself, but am at the stage where I'm keeping an eye out. I guess it pays to shop around. I did post some suggestions earlier that would make the cost comparable to (but not cheaper than) kits. Good to know it can be done.
> 
> For me it's definitely the setup costs holding me back. Though I think I may have enough set aside to set up a brew fridge when I get back to Adelaide >.<




yeah mate it was the set up costs for me too. Started getting pretty good at "bartering" nice hair cuts and handbags for the wife in exchange for the green light to pull the trigger on my equipment purchases.

now all the grief i get is when she walks past me on the laptop and simply asks: "beer buddies again" and shakes her head....


----------



## Cocko (31/1/11)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> But you have to remember that once you have the gear, you will allways have it




Agreed 100%.

A $200-500 set up may seem a fair outlay when you are pretty much enjoying your beer from your $80 dollar [Or whatever] coopers kit and a few cans of goo....

I was mashing my 57th brew in my mash tun on Saturday, doing a double brew day with Beersatan.. So much wort!, soo much... anyway and was saying/thinkging:

My tun cost me about $200+About $40 copper manifold - delivered = 100L tun.

Over 57 brews it has produced about 4788L of, if I must say, VERY enjoyable beer.

So, what is the cost of that outlay now per litre = 240 / 4788 = About 5c a litre. etc etc..

Buy right, buy once is MO.

2c.


----------



## Tony (31/1/11)

Mick71 said:


> Especially as I am a real *hack*, and don't take it all that seriously compared to most on here.



sort of :icon_offtopic: 

Hack........... ???????????

what do you think i am 

Oh... did anyone say that AG brewing is as awsome as ( . Y . )


----------



## bignath (31/1/11)

Tony said:


> Oh... did anyone say that AG brewing is as awsome as ( . Y . )



so that's how you draw a pair of boobs using just the keyboard!

learn something new every day..... :icon_cheers:


----------



## raven19 (1/2/11)

Big Nath said:


> ...now all the grief i get is when she walks past me on the laptop and simply asks: "beer buddies again" and shakes her head....



Almost word for word in our house too!


----------



## Bribie G (1/2/11)

Big Nath said:


> so that's how you draw a pair of boobs using just the keyboard!
> 
> learn something new every day..... :icon_cheers:



Another good one is Alt +2+4+8 which gives you the degree symbol in, for example 15 C
There are other combinations but this one is real easy to remember.
OOps off topic


----------



## manticle (1/2/11)

How does that compare to boobs bribie?

That's right, it can't.


----------



## QldKev (1/2/11)

manticle said:


> How does that compare to boobs bribie?
> 
> That's right, it can't.




Maybe BribieG likes to play with ( . Y . ) which are at 15c

QldKev


----------



## Bribie G (1/2/11)

That would be necrophilia 
Dead boring



h34r:


----------



## Sunshine_Brewer (1/2/11)

5kg sacks of rice at Coles today for 5 bucks, so 20% of your grain bill for 1 dollar. AG is cheap and plentiful at my place.


----------



## Bribie G (1/2/11)

Back on topic, that's another aspect of AG. Because you are using diastatic base malt it opens up a huge field of recipes using unmalted adjuncts you can't do with kit or extract - for example Classic American Pilseners (maize) - Asian / International lagers (rice) - oatmeal stout - Stouts using flaked barley - not to mention the range of malts such as Amber, Acidulated, Abbey (and that's just the a's  ) 
As the last poster said you can often get the adjuncts for a fraction of the cost of malted barley and this can be a real saving.


----------



## Nick JD (1/2/11)

BribieG said:


> As the last poster said you can often get the adjuncts for a fraction of the cost of malted barley and this can be a real saving.



25kg sak of SUGAZ! Wonderful lazyass adjunct.


----------



## Superoo (1/2/11)

Hey Fergi,
If it makes you feel any better, I thought the same when I started buying the equipment and ingredients I needed to do my fisrt AG, and was busily trying to justify it to SWMBO.

But then I tasted my first AG, and it was fully justified, and the cost was irrelevant.

As others have said, its how much you buy thats the key.
I now buy 500g hop bags for my regular brews, and have grown some cascade and chinook.
Plus buying bags of grain and reusing yeast is a big saving.

The main problem I have now, is being caught between showing off to visitors just how good my home brew is and seeing the surprise when they do taste it,
and the fact that if they do taste it, you cant bloody get rid of them !


----------



## Mikedub (1/2/11)

Its all true..... now........can we get back to talking about (.Y.)


----------



## QldKev (1/2/11)

Mikedub said:


> Its all true..... now........can we get back to talking about (.Y.)



ok, what about ( . ) ( . )


----------



## bignath (1/2/11)

numm numm numm numm.........


----------



## beerdrinkingbob (1/2/11)

fergi said:


> getting ready to try my first AG, but my calculations shows i need about 5kg of grain, approx , plus the hops, this seems to be around the 30 dollar mark for a 23 litre batch , plus the cost of gas and time involved, although i am anxious to try AG i thought it was supposed to work out cheaper than buying kits and bits. maybe i missing something here.
> 
> fergi



Hey Fergi,

You raise the same point that I asked myself at the start, It does cost the amounts you have quoted at the start and it makes you think, however you learn ways to say cash as time goes on ass other members have pointed out.

After some serious tastings of some of my mates awesome AG brews it got me across the the line. Although I do it on the cheap ($30) with the Big W pot etc etc, i love my beer compared to my kits worth every penny.

As for your time that is a big one, unfortunately that's free, the reason you do it is because you love the tastes, the smells, the creation and the difference in your beer and friends reactions.

The ongoing expenses are a bit scary, in the last two weeks I'm bought a couple of party keg's and a mill, $350 sssssshhhhhhhhhh don't tell the wife!!!

Happy brewing mate :beer:


----------



## Crusty (1/2/11)

QldKev said:


> ok, what about ( . ) ( . )
> 
> View attachment 43786



:icon_drool2:


----------



## fergi (1/2/11)

ok well i have looked through the ag data base , lots of great looking recipes there so i have decided to go with smurtos golden ale, the main reason is it uses fairly basic ingredients for a first off brew,i was going to use the biab method but since i have accumulated a large stainless pot, an esky for mashing and i am going to use a fowlers vacola electric boiler for my hlt.i am going to beerbellys tomorrow to buy my ingredients but i will only be getting what i need to do a single batch at first, i know you guys said bulk is cheaper but i want to see what ag is like first.,,,one question, is the mash the most critical part of the process, is it better to go slightly higher temp rather than a bit low, this is the bit that i might find the hardest to hit the correct temp for the mash, anyway i will see what happens.
fergi


----------



## Hatchy (1/2/11)

That's a fair drive for some grain & hops. Getting it delivered may be cheaper & would be quicker.

I reckon most blokes would agree that the ferment is the most important bit. If yr brewing DSGA as yr 1st beer then I'd say to mash at the temp that the recipe suggests. If you don't get yr desired mash temp immediately it's easy enough to adjust with hot or cold water. Don't be heavy handed with it though, it's pretty easy to overcompensate.

Best of luck mate. The worst thing that can happen is you'll make beer.


----------



## bignath (1/2/11)

fergi said:


> is it better to go slightly higher temp rather than a bit low, this is the bit that i might find the hardest to hit the correct temp for the mash, anyway i will see what happens.
> fergi



Go you good thing!

Best of luck mate, beer will happen.

just regarding the quote i've attached above, once you are familiar with your setup, you can expect to get the temp pretty much spot on all the time. However, equipment permitting, if i had to choose between just being under expected mash temp or a bit over, i personally would take the lower option. I have an immersion element that can come in very handy for this (and other things too.)

Aiming at 66 and get 65 instead? A quick stir with the element turned on will fix that. I'd rather do that than add extra water (in this example would be cold obviously) and run the risk of not getting my volume calculations right. Others may differ in opinion.


Also agree with Hatchy about ferment being the most important part of brewing. Once you've done it, i think you'll agree that it's not necessarily hard to do AG brewing. Time consuming and requires a heightened level of attention to detail sure, but it's not HARD. Once the fundamental processes of AG brewing are learnt and put into auto pilot, you still have to ferment it, and it doesn't take much in the ferment stage to completely **** it all up. There are a lot of things that can go wrong in any fermentation regardless of method to produce the wort. 

I am actually of the opinion that my beers that are all grained, taste better for more reasons than just the method that produced it.

I swear i've become much more careful during the fermentation phase of brewing due to the fact i don't want to have got to that stage (5 or so hours of brewing in the garage) and then stumble at the last hurdle by doing something stupid - like leaving the fermenter tap open whilst holding my chilled cube at shoulder height pouring it into said fermenter to aerate.......
I pay much more attention to the temp, and my all around control of the ferment phase is much more detailed since i've gone AG. And that is a good thing.

You'll be right mate, enjoy the process of making your first beer from scratch!


----------



## pbrosnan (2/2/11)

Nick JD said:


> That's not off topic at all, you just don't agree. Why are you being an :icon_offtopic: nazi?


Because you comment was condescending bullshit perhaps?


----------



## ashley_leask (2/2/11)

fergi said:


> ok well i have looked through the ag data base , lots of great looking recipes there so i have decided to go with smurtos golden ale, the main reason is it uses fairly basic ingredients for a first off brew...



I just did the same one, just plan it out have all the steps written down beforehand (helped me anyway) and run with it. Good luck with it, it's fun!

Cheers,

Ash


----------



## Zizzle (2/2/11)

AG beer: a few $$$ per batch.

The d!ckheads you meet via this forum? PRICELESS.  

Nah seriously, I've made some great mates here. And I wouldn't have been allowed into clubhouse if I was just doing K&K. You gotta know the secret hand shake.


----------



## fergi (2/2/11)

ok well i went to beerbellys today and got all my bits and pieces, got the malt/hops/yeast/whirflock. now i am ready to go, questions,what is saccharification rest @60, mins mean,mash out temp @78 deg??does this mean the temp of the sparge water . , .not doing it for a couple of days as its too hot outside here at the moment.
fergi


----------



## fcmcg (2/2/11)

fergi said:


> ok well i went to beerbellys today and got all my bits and pieces, got the malt/hops/yeast/whirflock. now i am ready to go, questions,what is saccharification rest @60, mins mean,mash out temp @78 deg??does this mean the temp of the sparge water . , .not doing it for a couple of days as its too hot outside here at the moment.
> fergi


Cause I'm on an iPhone , I'll be quick...
Sacchrification rest is basically your mash time...so "dough in"...pour your grain into your mash tun , with your hot water and let it sit covered for 60 mins...it's a kind of rest..now I'd have your "strike water " or mash water at about 72 /73 degrees..when you put your grain in , the temp will drop to about 66 degrees..if you don't hit the mash temp for this recipe..you can adjust it with small amounts of hot or cold water to hit your target temperature...make sure you stir your mash to stop dough balls , too...especially as you dough in...
Mash out temp is when , after your 60 min rest , you raise the temp of the mash to 78 degree ...personally I do not do a mash out step before I sparge...but what it means is you raise temp to 78 and then do recirulation and then sparge...I just recirc off the mash and then sparge...
Woo sore iPhone thumbs ...was longer than I though...good luck !
Cheers
Ferg


----------



## bradsbrew (2/2/11)

fergi said:


> ok well i went to beerbellys today and got all my bits and pieces, got the malt/hops/yeast/whirflock. now i am ready to go, questions,what is saccharification rest @60, mins mean,mash out temp @78 deg??does this mean the temp of the sparge water . , .not doing it for a couple of days as its too hot outside here at the moment.
> fergi


Sacrest is mashing time that gets the sugars out of the malt.

Mash out is the temp you raise the mash to before draining to kettle. So your sparge water needs to be hotter 85-90 degrees to bring the temp up.

I personnally dont raise the temp before draining the first runnings because of my set up but I do fire up the Rambo (on low) just after starting to drain.

I sparge twice one at mash out temp and one at sparge temp. Normally to get this I get the water to 85-90 turn HLT off and run to mash tun, drain and repeat.

Cheers


----------



## beerdrinkingbob (2/2/11)

fergi said:


> what is saccharification rest @60, mins mean,mash out temp @78 deg??



It's the business end of mashing, so for your ale 66 or 67 degrees. Mash out will stop the enzyme activity and you generally leave it at that temp for 10 to 15 minutes, however for your first brew personally i would just stick to the single mash temp for the first couple, the KISS system. See the links below for more info.

Saccharification rest

mash out


----------



## Hatchy (3/2/11)

I've never bothered with a mashout but my missus did a decoction mashout for her 1st batch. She had a better brewers assistant than I normally have though.


----------



## chopdog (3/2/11)

Beer4U said:


> haha yes i like to take my mrs through dans sometimes and point out that this is cheap alcohol, but compared to my expensive ways of brewing its still truckloads cheaper than buying beers.
> 
> I went to the pub the other day for the first time in a long time and payed $4.70 for a schooner of VB, it was cold and pretty clean but pretty boring as well..




i bloody paid $8.70 for a schooner of fat yak in the city the other day WTF :angry:


----------



## Ross (3/2/11)

fergi said:


> ok well i went to beerbellys today and got all my bits and pieces, got the malt/hops/yeast/whirflock. now i am ready to go, questions,what is saccharification rest @60, mins mean,mash out temp @78 deg??does this mean the temp of the sparge water . , .not doing it for a couple of days as its too hot outside here at the moment.
> fergi




Hi Fergi, firstly welcome to AG mate, you won't regret it & as others have pointed out, the cost gets cheaper the more seriously you get into it.

.......but please.... this thread was about AG costs. It got derailed by the usual suspects & you've now totally derailled your own thread with questions on mashing. Makes it very difficult for future brewers searching for info when this happens.
Just start a new thread or preferably look for one that is relevant & if you can't find the answer, add your question to it  


Cheers Ross


----------



## tavas (3/2/11)

chopdog said:


> i bloody paid $8.70 for a schooner of fat yak in the city the other day WTF :angry:



Come to Perth. You'll get charged $11 for that.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (3/2/11)

tavas said:


> Come to Perth. You'll get charged $11 for that.



I thought $9.60 a pint was bad enough in Bris-vegas - it's further to ship here and still cheaper!


----------



## fergi (3/2/11)

Ross said:


> Hi Fergi, firstly welcome to AG mate, you won't regret it & as others have pointed out, the cost gets cheaper the more seriously you get into it.
> 
> .......but please.... this thread was about AG costs. It got derailed by the usual suspects & you've now totally derailled your own thread with questions on mashing. Makes it very difficult for future brewers searching for info when this happens.
> Just start a new thread or preferably look for one that is relevant & if you can't find the answer, add your question to it
> ...




yes your correct ross i got caught up in the excitement, sorry.
fergi


----------

