# Copper Kettle Project



## ausdb (6/10/09)

Hi All
I acquired a large old copper HWS tank a while back from a friend for an unbelievably good price and are going to turn it into my new brew kettle. The main section of the tank is 540mm diameter and 1200mm long which gives rough volume of about 260l if I take off a small amount for the thickness of the copper.



I have a varied arsenal of brewgear based mainly around a 50l esky MLT a 40L urn and a cheap 80l stockpot kettle but find the 80l kettle is a struggle with batches where you want three kegs of finished beer once you take into account losses and cooling. I hopefully have a 120L esky on its way from USA and are currently the custodian of a 150L esky mash lauter tun that can easily hold two bags of grain so 150-200l batches are not out of the question. 

The only problem is I am not sure where to make the cut, do I keep it full volume for brewclub monster brewdays or make two smaller kettles which are more manageable? 

Please cast your vote


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## Pete2501 (6/10/09)

On a side note I wouldn't be surprised if you could sell all that copper for a hefty sum that would buy you a brand new made SS brew kettle.


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## Wisey (6/10/09)

I like the copper look.

I have read that the bigger you go, the more chance you'll find your mash will burn on the "hot spot" on the bottom.


Now tell me, whats stopping you working with it on its side? and running a couple of BBQ burners along it - that way you can work with it fairly easy and you dont have to stand on a chair to stir your kettle?


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## lefty2446 (6/10/09)

I voted for just one end but my second choice would be 60/40 would then make a good HLT and Kettle.

Happy brew days ahead!

Adrian


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## real_beer (6/10/09)

ausdb said:


> The only problem is I am not sure where to make the cut, do I keep it full volume for brewclub monster brewdays or make two smaller kettles which are more manageable?
> 
> Please cast your vote



Two smaller kettles.
If it was wider I think it would be good as one big kettle. Also you would probably want it nicely polished and keeping it looking good might be awkward with a supporting framework fitted around it, but depends on your design I suppose. No doubt you'll get lots of good ideas and suggestions from the forum :icon_cheers: .


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## QldKev (6/10/09)

I selected the "I really don't give a rats" 

no offence but someone had too :super: 

QldKev


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## sinkas (6/10/09)

60 40 then you will have a good sized HLT too,


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## ausdb (6/10/09)

Thanks for the comments so far



Pete2501 said:


> On a side note I wouldn't be surprised if you could sell all that copper for a hefty sum that would buy you a brand new made SS brew kettle.


Why would I sell a copper vessel which is a far better heat conductor to buy a stainless pot?



Wisey said:


> I have read that the bigger you go, the more chance you'll find your mash will burn on the "hot spot" on the bottom.
> Now tell me, whats stopping you working with it on its side? and running a couple of BBQ burners along it - that way you can work with it fairly easy and you dont have to stand on a chair to stir your kettle?


This is a boil kettle only, I know guys using the stainless hot water cylinders of similar dimensions with no scorching issues so this should work even better. As for using on its side once you opened it up it would lose all of its strength and the sides would belly out, plus it would be a bugger to work out how full it was and to whirlpool etc etc



real_beer said:


> Also you would probably want it nicely polished and keeping it looking good might be awkward with a supporting framework fitted around it, but depends on your design I suppose


I am pretty much a function follows form brewer, if anyone wants it polished they are free to come round and do it :icon_cheers: 
I plan on making a stand with a two steel bands that fit around the cylinder and then bolting on three legs of dexion angle so I can adjust the height above the burner. The burner is a NASA on steriods with an ultra high pressure reg.

I have been edging towards the 60/40 split myself but things like this don't come up very often so thanks for your comments so far.


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## katzke (6/10/09)

ausdb said:


> I plan on making a stand with a two steel bands that fit around the cylinder and then bolting on three legs of dexion angle so I can adjust the height above the burner. The burner is a NASA on steriods with an ultra high pressure reg.



Can not comment on the size issue.

I can say if you are going copper why not stay with copper bands. Mixing steel and copper just seems like blasphemy in a brewing kettle. If you can not find any suitable material at a recycler I think that some copper water pipe with some copper ground wire stuffed in it would make a nice looking band. You could even go so far as to roll the edge over part of the band to make it not only look nice but make clean up easier then having an edge goop can collect in.

I also vote for polishing it. Good way to get your mooching friends to pay you back for all the home brew they drink. No pint till it shines.


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## raven19 (6/10/09)

I voted 66/33.

But it really depends on your own typical brew day at home imo.

Whatever you go with, a large kettle for big brew days will come in handy.


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## seravitae (6/10/09)

> Why would I sell a copper vessel which is a far better heat conductor to buy a stainless pot?



...because acidic wort will degrade the copper extremely fast especially if you use brew ph stabilisers

...because making a kettle out of copper might have more heat conduction but it also has more heat losses, because you can easily buy a cheap SS pot and stick an immersion element in it, which will provide you with a higher thermal transfer and efficiency than a burner through the copper ever will....


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## real_beer (6/10/09)

ausdb said:


> I have been edging towards the 60/40 split myself but things like this don't come up very often so thanks for your comments so far.


Just remembered, a guy years ago had plans and photo's on the Internet on how to make a conical fermenter out of copper. Maybe a boiler and a fermenter could be an option, I think I downloaded the web page and kept it but not sure exactly where I put it, I could try and find it if you decide you like the idea :icon_cheers: .


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## ausdb (7/10/09)

raven19 said:


> I voted 66/33.
> 
> But it really depends on your own typical brew day at home imo.
> 
> Whatever you go with, a large kettle for big brew days will come in handy.


Actually lately due to a back injury I have been mainly doing 20-30L brews using just a 40L urn and a 50L esky. This thing is overkill but is a good project for club brewdays or having mates round who want to make AG wort. 



sera said:


> ...because acidic wort will degrade the copper extremely fast especially if you use brew ph stabilisers
> 
> ...because making a kettle out of copper might have more heat conduction but it also has more heat losses, because you can easily buy a cheap SS pot and stick an immersion element in it, which will provide you with a higher thermal transfer and efficiency than a burner through the copper ever will....


Sorry if this sounds sarcarstic but please dont tell me that brewers for the last few hundred years have had it all wrong? "copper" finings didn't get their name from being thrown in the _copper?_ kettle for nothing. I also don't know of anyone managing to dissolve a copper immerison chiller or CFC due to using brew stabilisers, can you point me to some info on this?
An immersion element will provide better heat transfer but also ties you to a mains power supply and means you will also need a way of controlling power to the element/s once you have got it to the boil to control your evaporation rate. You would also need significantly more than 2400W to get it up and running I would hazard a rough guess on using 4800W for 150L or even more based on my experience with a 40L urn with a 3000W element which still takes a fair while to get to the boil with 35L in it. Also you cant play wort tricks like kettle caramelisation with an electric kettle very well.
Gas fired means this project is portable and can be used anywhere.



real_beer said:


> Just remembered, a guy years ago had plans and photo's on the Internet on how to make a conical fermenter out of copper. Maybe a boiler and a fermenter could be an option, I think I downloaded the web page and kept it but not sure exactly where I put it, I could try and find it if you decide you like the idea :icon_cheers: .


I have seen that site but there is plenty of info that making wort and boiling in a copper vessel = good but fermenting wort in a copper vessel = bad


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## seravitae (7/10/09)

not to sound sarcastic but why are you asking questions if you already know the answers..

plus you never specified limitations such as that you planned to use gas, so who am I to know.

regardless, good luck!


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## katzke (7/10/09)

sera said:


> not to sound sarcastic but why are you asking questions if you already know the answers..
> 
> plus you never specified limitations such as that you planned to use gas, so who am I to know.
> 
> regardless, good luck!



Post number 8 mentions the burner.

The original post just asked where to cut it. Never asked about if copper was good or not. I got that they are committed to the project and just wanted advice as to what size of boiler would be best.


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## katzke (7/10/09)

OK I have a thought for you. Some place in the back of my mind I recall reading a reference on boil kettle geometry, or maybe on fermenter geometry. I am sure that it was a reference of ideal diameter to height. Most brew systems over here are based on barrel kegs. I would have to get to one and measure it for the ratio. I use a 50-liter keg and they are shorter then the standard barrel kegs.

This may give you an idea of where to cut your tank.


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## Thirsty Boy (7/10/09)

Sera is right about the copper and that is why breweries don't use copper _anymore_ - it doesn't count when its just a skin on a stainless kettle.

Copper doesn't hold up to the rigors of brewing as well, you need to be careful about the cleaners you plan to use and excessive copper is bad for yeast health ( a little is needed, but way less than you will get from your kettle) Info on making wort in copper kettles = good, is basically wrong. It may not be completely unworkable (obviously isn't) but of the practicable metals you could choose.. its probably the least suitable.

Oh - at the end of the day it would still work with few problems... but I too think you would be better off selling the copper and buying commercial pots in stainless or aluminium... depending of course on what price you could get.

Still - that wouldn't be as much fun, and that might be half the point anyway.


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## seravitae (7/10/09)

copper is antibacterial to e.coli and other bacteria, some studies have shown SS has little effect on bacteria whereas copper and brass both possess antibacterial effects, one of the reasons that doorknobs were traditionally made of brass. may be useful to have copper in the kettle if you chill in the kettle to keep stuff sterilized/pasturized.

With that huge amount of copper I think it would be fun to beat it out into a nicetraditional alembic distiller (for art purposes, not functional). But as stated, this is about fun, and different people have different ideas of what fun is. Either way that huge mound of copper is going to make for a nice project (or a good trade for project gear).


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## ausdb (7/10/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Sera is right about the copper and that is why breweries don't use copper _anymore_ - it doesn't count when its just a skin on a stainless kettle.
> 
> Copper doesn't hold up to the rigors of brewing as well, you need to be careful about the cleaners you plan to use and excessive copper is bad for yeast health ( a little is needed, but way less than you will get from your kettle) Info on making wort in copper kettles = good, is basically wrong. It may not be completely unworkable (obviously isn't) but of the practicable metals you could choose.. its probably the least suitable.
> 
> ...






sera said:


> copper is antibacterial to e.coli and other bacteria, some studies have shown SS has little effect on bacteria whereas copper and brass both possess antibacterial effects, one of the reasons that doorknobs were traditionally made of brass. may be useful to have copper in the kettle if you chill in the kettle to keep stuff sterilized/pasturized.
> 
> With that huge amount of copper I think it would be fun to beat it out into a nicetraditional alembic distiller (for art purposes, not functional). But as stated, this is about fun, and different people have different ideas of what fun is. Either way that huge mound of copper is going to make for a nice project (or a good trade for project gear).


Cheers for the comments guys but can you please point me to some hard data about copper being bad? 
I did some searching last night and a few things that came up on google books in brewing texts did not say this was the case, I even found a few references about all S/S breweries putting some copper back into the wort production process Miller in the USA still use copper kettles with stainless domes. I know that copper does not fit so well with cleaners used in modern process cleaning systems but this is only a home brew setup not a comercial brewery and if I have to clean it with a pressure cleaner so be it.
Also if copper is so bad why do distilleries still build their stills out of it?


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## Airgead (7/10/09)

Folks

I don't know much about copper brewing kettles but I do know that copper cooking pots are always coated on the inside (tinned they call it although I'm not sure they actually use tin any more). This stops the copper being attached by acidic foods. the only exception is copper bowls for beating eggs.

I wonder whether traditional copper brewing kettles are also tinned or whether they were just raw copper?

Cheers
Dave


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## seravitae (7/10/09)

> Cheers for the comments guys but can you please point me to some hard data about copper being bad?
> I did some searching last night and a few things that came up on google books in brewing texts did not say this was the case, I even found a few references about all S/S breweries putting some copper back into the wort production process Miller in the USA still use copper kettles with stainless domes. I know that copper does not fit so well with cleaners used in modern process cleaning systems but this is only a home brew setup not a comercial brewery and if I have to clean it with a pressure cleaner so be it.
> Also if copper is so bad why do distilleries still build their stills out of it?



Copper isnt _bad,_ just depends what you're using it for. In fact i just posted a reason why it was good. Copper is put back into brewing processes probably for the reason i mentioned, natural antibacterial, and also because copper can catalyse sulfide based reactions, allowing the sulfides to be converted to H2S (gas) which leaves the kettle/fermentor as a big smelly fart rather than you having to drink a big smelly fart. This is especially true for distilleries as the catalytic conversion is accelerated at high temperatures.

This is the primary reason that distillery operators whom use all stainless stills routinely pack their columns with copper raschig rings or at least have some sheets of copper somewhere in the vapour path.

Needless to say as both distilling and beer brewing are both very old arts, one reason why some breweries only use copper for stills is none other than tradition. Their recepies date back sometimes 100's of years and naturally they are very reluctant to change.

This I guess is the same case. You are fortunate to have come across a nice massive bit of copper there, which I'm sure will would make a perfectly fine kettle/brew rig in a pinch. Most brewers and industry shy away from copper vessels due to excessive material costs, reactivity and difficulties in cleaning and maintaining. If you honestly believe these (on your scale/conditions) will not impact you, go for it, nobody will stop you or try to stop you, only merely attempt to indicate why it's not routinely done and what difficulties you may discover.

Another reason possibly not to use copper is that as it may form copper salts in solution, these can promote bacterial infection and may also affect the taste of your product however in HERMS setups your wort flows through copper so it may be moot point.



there are many reasons for and against, it appears you are actively weighing up your options by doing research which is very commendable. the only other comment I can make is that, given the success of standard 'Big-W/Kmart + Bunnings' breweries (mostly SS and brass), it seems to me, saddening to use such a unique piece of copper for something that can be made out off the shelf items for minimal cost. Hence why i think you should save it for some epic project.

dave: traditional stills and such are not tinned, they merely form a patina through use which "protects" the underlying copper from oxidation, acts as a catalyst while still retaining the thermal properties of the bulk material


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## Guest Lurker (7/10/09)

Kunze, the seminal commercial brewing reference, suggests the only problem with a copper kettle is keeping it clean on the outside.


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## Kai (7/10/09)

I recall reading somewhere in the Institute of Brewer & Distiller diploma notes that excess copper is indeed toxic to yeast. I doubt it would be a problem here though.

My take on having a copper kettle:

- A pain in the arse to keep clean and shiny
- effin' awesome if it's clean and shiny

If I could have a 'no expense spared' home brewery it would have a copper kettle. And a wooden mash tun. And I'd pay someone to clean it all.


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## Kleiny (7/10/09)

Kai said:


> I recall reading somewhere in the Institute of Brewer & Distiller diploma notes that excess copper is indeed toxic to yeast



The word here is excess. Copper is actually beneficial to yeast in small amounts and German brewers have known this for a long time. Due to there strict laws using a copper kettle allowed them to get trace elements into the beer before fermentation without any additions that would come under scrutiny.

SS may be great for cleaning and not react in any bad way with the wort boil however it is not a good insulator or conductor of heat and infact some research shows that SS is not as effective as a boil kettle barrier as copper is. 

Kleiny


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## Kai (7/10/09)

Yes, I also said I doubted it would be a problem.

And I think debate about thermal properties is purely academic, who here has problems boiling in stainless??


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## Kleiny (7/10/09)

Kai said:


> Yes, I also said I doubted it would be a problem.
> 
> And I think debate about thermal properties is purely academic, who here has problems boiling in stainless??



Yer i did see that and i was not trying to throw you under the bus just adding some info.

I tend to agree that nobody has any issues at this level with kettle construction

It would be great to have a full copper kettle just to see if there was any change (lucky ausdb)

Kleiny


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## Kai (7/10/09)

I just think it would be great to have a copper copper. So long as you like cleaning & polishing.


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## seravitae (7/10/09)

> SS may be great for cleaning and not react in any bad way with the wort boil however it is not a good insulator or conductor of heat and infact some research shows that SS is not as effective as a boil kettle barrier as copper is.





How can something be both a bad insulator and a bad conductor of heat..


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## ausdb (7/10/09)

Kai said:


> I just think it would be great to have a copper copper. So long as you like cleaning & polishing.



Who says you have to polish it? 
As long as it is clean and sanitary on the inside where it counts I really don't give a rats what the outside looks like.

Thanks GL for the post on Kunze I have been thinking of going up to ECU to study some brewing texts as all of sudden experts are telling me it is bad but nobody can give me reference why apart from hearsay

I actually found an article on the IBD site which studied heavy metal ions in beer namely: Copper Iron and Magnseium, it appears Magnesium is more of an issue than Copper.

So in a few weeks I will post some pics of the end result


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## Kai (7/10/09)

Just imagine a magnesium kettle...

The attraction to me of a copper copper is that it would look freaking awesome all shiny. Old and scummy though, I just think of one of those crusty old copper wood buckets that used to sit by a fireplace somewhere. To reiterate though, I do love the idea of a copper copper.

As for the inside, it won't look so attractive after you have an epic brew day, leave the dregs of the last brew in the kettle for a day or so, give it a hasty rinse then forget about it for a week. Happens to me all the time.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I have no problem with the concept of a copper kettle but think they'd be high maintenance. And I'd make myself a 60/40 split in your shoes


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## seravitae (7/10/09)

be sure to pick up a copy of this ref at ECU: 

V. Sera:2009, "Curb Your Cyniscism and Just Build The Danm Thing", _Journal of Advanced Sarcasm_, v.1, no.1, AussieHomeBrewer Publishing House.


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## bill_gill85 (8/10/09)

Or, you could make a 210L Kettle & give me the 50L remainder  

I know it may seem silly to some, but who says you have to use the full volume? Make a kettle for epic brewdays (practical volume), & make the other end a comfortable size for your every day brew size. Keep the band of copper for another project or sell it for scrap if there's heaps left.

Personally, I'd give the outside a good clean & then a coat of high temp clear laquer once it has a light tarnish. That way you've got bling with character, fingerprint protection & you won't be polishing it every other day. :icon_drool2:


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## Thirsty Boy (8/10/09)

ausdb said:


> Thanks GL for the post on Kunze I have been thinking of going up to ECU to study some brewing texts as all of sudden experts are telling me it is bad but nobody can give me reference why apart from hearsay



Well, Kunze is one of the places I would have pointed you to - as well as the IBD material, Brewing Science and Practice, the Handbook of Brewing and a bunch of other sources as well.. but I am too late. Apparently not giving you references within 24hrs or so renders my reasonably educated opinion mere hearsay.

Excess copper is toxic to yeast; in lesser amounts affects fermentation performance, catalyses oxidation reactions in hot wort & beer, inhibits enzyme activity, may cause gushing and I seem to recall (but am not sure) can contribute to haze formation - it is necessary in _trace_ amounts... which is why some brewers with all stainless systems will add a small amount of copper into the pipework, although most brewers with all stainless systems don't.

Now I cant be arsed going back over all my study notes to track down exactly which text mentioned it, but if you care to display any faith... take it on faith that I have indeed read that an all copper boil kettle will raise the levels of copper in your wort above optimum levels. Not that it will wreck your beer, not that you cant brew with a copper kettle - just that it isn't optimum.

So IMO copper is a less than optimum choice - But that doesn't mean your Copper vessels wont be ultra cool, will no doubt work a treat, you will have a blast making them and I bet you brew fine beer in them.

Just trying to offer a variety of opinions so you can make an informed choice.


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## Thirsty Boy (8/10/09)

Oh - and here's one to counter my opinion a bit - and a chunk of generally good advice too.

From John Palmer (brewing guy and metallurgist) on some site about copper pots and pans etc

"....While copper is readily dissolved by acidic foods such as tomato sauce,
wort and beer do not dissolve it (although copper oxides are). As long
as you keep your copper wort chillers and brew kettles clean (not shiny,
but clean) the copper will develop a dull patina that will be inert to
the beer and wort. After use you should only rinse or at most use a mild
detergent to release any organic residue. Only use acidic cleaners like
vinegar if you have to clean the item to bare metal. Never use caustic
cleaners like bleach, they will blacken the copper with oxides that will
readily dissolve into the wort, which could raise the copper levels
enough to impair the yeast or cause poisoning....."


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## ausdb (8/10/09)

Thanks TB for that info, the funny thing is I can get any number of stainless tanks of similar size and had the opportunity to get hold a copper one. I was never asking about the pro's and cons of the choice as I had already weighed them up a long time ago.

I was more interested in what people thought about vessel size options,

So in the end the chop is going to be for 100l / 160l and the monster brewdays miss out  then I'll just have to get a stainless one for the really big batches


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## seravitae (8/10/09)

> "....While copper is readily dissolved by acidic foods such as tomato sauce,
> wort and beer do not dissolve it (although copper oxides are).





> Patina
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Patina (pronounced /ˈptənə/ or /pəˈtiːnə/) is a film on the surface of bronze or similar metals (produced by *oxidation* over a long period); a sheen on wooden furniture produced by age, wear, and polishing; or any such acquired change of a surface through age and exposure. On metal, patina is a coating of various chemical compounds such as *oxides* or carbonates formed on the surface during exposure to the elements (weathering).


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## Thirsty Boy (8/10/09)

ausdb said:


> Thanks TB for that info, the funny thing is I can get any number of stainless tanks of similar size and had the opportunity to get hold a copper one. I was never asking about the pro's and cons of the choice as I had already weighed them up a long time ago.
> 
> I was more interested in what people thought about vessel size options,
> 
> So in the end the chop is going to be for 100l / 160l and the monster brewdays miss out  then I'll just have to get a stainless one for the really big batches



True - we ruthlessly sidetracked your thread (even after it was pointed out that thats what we were doing) - sorry about that.

Good luck with the two vessels... its not like a 100L boiler is a small option either. Brew strong.

TB


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