# Mash Ph



## HeavyNova (2/6/11)

I'm currently doing 12L BIAB brews and want to have a go at adjusting the water's pH and mineral levels fo some (hopefully) better results.

I have a report for my local tap water (Perth region - Bold Park) from 2008. I can't seem to find the same level of detail for more recent samples though.

I've recently seen stuff called "5.2 pH Stabiliser" whch recommend you just put a spoon in the mash for a full sized batch and it'll adjust your pH to the desired pH of 5.2. Or you can go the old fashoined route of adding the correct amount of salts to tweak the pH and mineral levels.

Is it correct to say;

Correct pH will maximise enzyme activity and improve efficiency but have little effect on the taste
&
Mineral levels will affect the taste and character of the final beer

From my reading it seems that the levels of Calcium, Sulphate, Chloride etc will affect the taste of the beer as well as the pH. Is this the advantage of the salts over the 'quick fix' solution of the pH stabiliser?

Does anyone in the Perth Bold Park region have a recent water report?


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## khendrickson (2/6/11)

HeavyNova said:


> Does anyone in the Perth Bold Park region have a recent water report?




You need to remember the Desal plant has gone on line since 2008 and that odds are the mineral content has dropped. If you call your water supplier, I am assuming it is the Water Corp, they should have a chemical analysis of the water in your general area. If you are really worried about the mineral content, get your water tested privately.

The water corp has the http://www.watercorporation.com.au/_files/...009_to_2010.pdf , it does not have the results listed in it for the metro area or any area in general.


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## Jazzafish (2/6/11)

I believe any change affects the beer in some way. But in general you are correct.

I find 5.2 works well, to the point where my ph meter is rarely used. Your mashes will be more consistent too. 

Have a look at this one when you know your starting water EZ Water Calculator It will give an indication of a ballpark result of the flavour profile from salt additions and pH, but you really need to do side by side batches/tasting to really know the difference. 

I have noticed benefits of using salts in things like flocculation and yeast health too.


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## amiddler (2/6/11)

HeavyNova said:


> Is it correct to say;
> 
> Correct pH will maximise enzyme activity and improve efficiency but have little effect on the taste
> &
> ...



HeavyNova, I am just starting to "play" with my brewing liquor and from what I have read I agree with you statements above. I have never used the 5.2 stabilizer and chose to add 3-5% acid malt to my lighter brews and none to my darker ones to adjust pH. I measure pH from time to time but I think I might have to buy my own meter very soon.

I'm leaning towards sending away my own water to be analysed like PBR has said. $66 and I know that is what is going into my brews not something that was sampled 50-100Km's away.

Drew


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## HeavyNova (2/6/11)

PBR said:


> You need to remember the Desal plant has gone on line since 2008


Good point. It would be interesting to know if this has made any changes. I think a call to the Water Corp will be required to take out all the guessing and assumptions.

Does anyone ever use both salts and stabiliser - e.g. use salt to get the mineral levels right then throw is some stabiliser to make sure the mash pH is hitting 5.2?


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## Bizier (2/6/11)

What pH are you currently getting with your mash?

I am on Yokine and have only added aesthetic mineral additions to my kettle because my mashes (given a more traditional L:G ratio) have been basically hitting around the 5.2-5.4 mark (with pale beers), which I figure is basically spot on.

I would keep an eye on chlorides using 5.2 on top of Perth water, and would prefer to change my pH using phosphoric acid or gypsum if needed. That said, I am unsure how you could accurately calculate or measure it.


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## HeavyNova (2/6/11)

Bizier said:


> What pH are you currently getting with your mash?
> 
> I am on Yokine and have only added aesthetic mineral additions to my kettle because my mashes (given a more traditional L:G ratio) have been basically hitting around the 5.2-5.4 mark (with pale beers), which I figure is basically spot on.
> 
> I would keep an eye on chlorides using 5.2 on top of Perth water, and would prefer to change my pH using phosphoric acid or gypsum if needed. That said, I am unsure how you could accurately calculate or measure it.



No clue about my current mash pH! I plan to sort out some kind of way to measure this when I finally get my head around what salts/other gear I'll need to start down this path.

As far as I know there are pH strips or you can go a bit more hi-tech and get a digital meter. But then there's the temperature thing to adjust for so I assume you can get some sort of chart or formula to adjust the pH reading back to the real value at the mash temp? Then there are those really expensive ones that do all that for you!

Anyway, yes, Chloride levels look good based on the 2008 water report I have. Also based on this report my;
Calcium levels are too low (below 50ppm)
Bicarbonate levels are too high (above 15ppm)
Sulphate levels are low (below 50ppm - but it depends on what you're brewing for how much sulphate you want)
Sodium levels look too high (above 50ppm)

Actually writing all this down has convinced me to go down the salts route as it looks like a few things need tweaking up and down to get the best out of my brews.


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## Bizier (3/6/11)

Just get a cheap ebay digi pH meter, they are fine for what you need, and I firmly believe that all the yellow ones are the same, so get the cheapest w/ delivery. You might need to calibrate it more often, or buy another one if the bulb breaks, but they get you there.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Digital-pH-Mete...=item4159f5f4aa


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## HeavyNova (3/6/11)

Bizier said:


> Just get a cheap ebay digi pH meter, they are fine for what you need, and I firmly believe that all the yellow ones are the same, so get the cheapest w/ delivery. You might need to calibrate it more often, or buy another one if the bulb breaks, but they get you there.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Digital-pH-Mete...=item4159f5f4aa


Cheers for the tip. I reckon at those prices it's worth a go - just to make a start in getting this water chemistry stuff down pat.


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## stux (3/6/11)

HeavyNova said:


> Cheers for the tip. I reckon at those prices it's worth a go - just to make a start in getting this water chemistry stuff down pat.



11$ delivered... dang, the batteries would almost cost that!


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## Online Brewing Supplies (3/6/11)

The cheapy is going to shift A LOT, if you are a keen brewer spent some extra bucks and get a name brand. In the long run you will save money and get repeatability in your brewing. I have gone both ways and know that cheap stuff is not the way to go with pH meters.
GB


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## Spoonta (3/6/11)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> The cheapy is going to shift A LOT, if you are a keen brewer spent some extra bucks and get a name brand. In the long run you will save money and get repeatability in your brewing. I have gone both ways and know that cheap stuff is not the way to go with pH meters.
> GB



what would you buy Nev


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## dougsbrew (3/6/11)

Drew said:


> I'm leaning towards sending away my own water to be analysed like PBR has said. $66 and I know that is what is going into my brews not something that was sampled 50-100Km's away.
> 
> Drew



the water you get tested can change daily out of your tap, also seasonally. but some info is better than none.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (3/6/11)

Spoonta said:


> what would you buy Nev


Spoonta
High end price $800.00 Horiba cant be beat, This is the one I have, but Hanna and Milwaukee make good gear around $150.00 that has auto temp compensation. I prefer a meter with a separate probe so when the probe is stuffed you just by a new probe with BNC connection.
Really depends if you are into pH and brewing science, if not pH papers will do the job more so than a $11.00 cheapy.
I like to log my pH and that is what my meter will do and I can print direct from the meter. I know its a bit of wank but thats what you get from spending too much money on high tech gear.  
Each to their own.
Nev 
GB


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## HeavyNova (3/6/11)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Spoonta
> High end price $800.00 Horiba cant be beat, This is the one I have, but Hanna and Milwaukee make good gear around $150.00 that has auto temp compensation. I prefer a meter with a separate probe so when the probe is stuffed you just by a new probe with BNC connection.
> Really depends if you are into pH and brewing science, if not pH papers will do the job more so than a $11.00 cheapy.
> I like to log my pH and that is what my meter will do and I can print direct from the meter. I know its a bit of wank but thats what you get from spending too much money on high tech gear.
> ...


I'm sure it would be hard to beat an $800 pH meter! But I'll take a look at those others you mentioned and compare them to what I can achieve with pH papers. I'm usually one to try and get something that I know will suit my purposes for some time to come - e.g. no cash wasted on upgrades down the track. Thanks for the info GB.


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## Jazzafish (4/6/11)

Yes you can use 5.2 along with salts... no issue.

There are some great podcasts on Ph and water chemistry
Beersmith pH Podcast
Basicbrewing Radio pH part 1
Brew Stong Water shows

I have an average pH meter, but not using it too much these days. That said I used it a lot when learning/toying with mash pH so it was worth the effort. FWIW, I found that it always returned a reading of 5.2 or 5.3 when using the 5.2 buffer product.

Hindsight, the paper test strips would have done the job for less money and effort in the short term. Not as precise or convenient, but close enough to indicate problems. If you choose a pH meter make sure you get one that can be calibrated... and unless you spend hundreds, call the reading "close to" and don't fret if it is .1 or .2 of where a text book tells you to be. You should know that a pH meter is basically an electrode that needs to be calibrated on a regular basis with buffering solution. Temperature will also have an effect on the reading. The electrode will also wear out over time.


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## Bizier (4/6/11)

I used to use a good Eutech meter at work, and I tested the cheap shitty one against it, and it fared pretty OK all things considered. I just use a calibration solution closest to your desired measurement, so pH4 for mash.


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