# Get into O2 guys, if you're serious about nicer beer



## Coldspace

I've been brewing for 25 years, all grain for 3 years, temp control last 2 years, yeast starters last year

Now lots turned out great, but O2 injection has made a really nice leap in quality, so thanks to thus forum for steering a path to heaven.

Just polished off some nice Irish red last month first 02 beers, great diff, just had a session sarvo /tonight with a dry hopped 150 lashes and then moved onto my own IPA receipe, both with 02 injection and nice starters and temp, and wow, what a nice crisp improvement , hop/ malt flavours shine through a lot better.

Worth every $1 worth of 02 lol, or cheaper if you get the bigger bottles.

Not just on all grain but kits as well...

Got a couple of novice mates I've set up with basic keezers, and temp fridges using Morgans and coopers kits. With my help they have been churning out acceptable batches.

Last batches they have done, both with 3 fermenters each , I went around with the O2 and they mixed up, O2 the wort, pitched just packet us05 , 1.5 pkts each batch.

3 weeks ago, this week both guys have phoned me up creaming their pants saying it's the best beers they have kegged ever. Well good for them.

They recon the beers are nicer at 3 days into the keg after 1 week cc, than when they used to leave the keg for a few weeks, so we are all on our way to better beers....

Just got my stainless fermenters and a kegmenter thanks to Dancraftbeers imputs, chilling down some cubes of munich helles with lots of 2206 yeast, ready for an O2 injected 10 degree ferment pitch tommoz arvo into my kegmenter pressure vessel for Christmas guzzlers... Yummo

I've told my 2 brewing mates that I've cracked open a few kegs this week of 02 all grain beers, guess who are racing around here tommoz for Friday arvo schooners lol....

Mid week session of nice IPA, was getting hammerd earlier, now soooo excited for my mini kegs and Batz arndale font that I've addrenalin has sobered me up.

Time for a quick RIS, then bed...to dream on

Love this hobby, wife hates it lol..... Better buy that bracelet...


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## Crusty

It's interesting that you describe the O2 beers as more crisp with the malt & hop flavours really shining through.
I'm experiencing the exact same thing as you. The O2 beers are without a doubt, a step up in quality, no question.
The ferment is very healthy & solid & it finishes earlier than a wort without O2 injection. One of the best investments I've made this year.


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## pat_00

Interesting, I am just about to cold crash my first beer made with O2.


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## pcqypcqy

I've been pondering this lately. You may have just convinced me. (gets out wallet, muttering....)


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## big78sam

OK you have piqued my interest. Where did you get the 02 set up? How much did it cost?


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## welly2

My first been aerated with O2 is currently fermenting. Fermentation kicked off within a few hours of pitching the yeast and it's going great guns at the moment. Had a taste the other day and it does taste really good. My only concern is over-O2ing, although it doesn't seem to have affected it. When you run your O2 through your wort, how vigorous does it run? Mine ended up a bit bubbly. I think I had the regulator set a bit too high.


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## Crusty

big78sam said:


> OK you have piqued my interest. Where did you get the 02 set up? How much did it cost?


I'm not sure what coldspace uses but I ended up with the CoreGas oxygen cylinder from Bunnings ( $200 refundable deposit, $69.00 for the Oxygen ) + a Cigweld oxygen regulator from Bunnings. I grabbed an Oxywand from CraftBrewer with a 0.5 micron airstone.



welly2 said:


> My first been aerated with O2 is currently fermenting. Fermentation kicked off within a few hours of pitching the yeast and it's going great guns at the moment. Had a taste the other day and it does taste really good. My only concern is over-O2ing, although it doesn't seem to have affected it. When you run your O2 through your wort, how vigorous does it run? Mine ended up a bit bubbly. I think I had the regulator set a bit too high.


To be honest, I was expecting far less lag time with O2 than not but kick off time is very similar. What I have noticed though is the ferment seems more solid. It's definitely more healthy with a faster finish. I still use an airlock & before O2, the ferment would be ticking along with a bloop every 5-6sec or so. The ferment with the O2 seems to bloop every 3-4sec so it appears that the yeast have got their dancing shoes on. I'm running at 5psi for about 90sec & found this to be pretty good. It does foam up so if you have a full fermenter, the foam will want to climb out.


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## Coodgee

Does oxygen addition theoretically help when using the correct amount of dry yeast? I think I read somewhere that dry yeasts already have all the oxygen they need. Or am I mistaken?


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## Bridgey23

pcqypcqy said:


> I've been pondering this lately. You may have just convinced me. (gets out wallet, muttering....)


Lol same here. Just purchased a kit from brewman after reading this thread. I keep saying to the Mrs after this I think I'm sorted then inevitably something else comes up that I simply must buy.


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## damoninja

It has been in the back of my brain for a while now...

What are average costs for an O2 rig? Best places to buy cylinders (I'm in Adelaide)? I did see the Bunnings note, suspect they'd be among the cheapest... 

*Edit: *bloody hell just read that the $200 is a refundable deposit, that seems like a bargain... 

Follow up Q then how long's a $69er last (of O2 you sick bastards)


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## pcqypcqy

Coodgee said:


> Does oxygen addition theoretically help when using the correct amount of dry yeast? I think I read somewhere that dry yeasts already have all the oxygen they need. Or am I mistaken?


I think to a point, they do, but certain beers and certain conditions will put more stress on the yeast, and potentially provide a less clean ferment. 

You wouldn't want to try a big beer without some O2 I think, or if you did you'd probably have to give it a lot longer than you would if you used O2. I'd say it also lets you get away with less yeast, for example I usually use 2 packs of dry yeast in a 6 gallon batch to get a really good ferment started quickly, whereas you could probably achieve the same with 1 pack and a good shot of o2.

At least this is my limited understanding.


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## damoninja

Coodgee said:


> Does oxygen addition theoretically help when using the correct amount of dry yeast? I think I read somewhere that dry yeasts already have all the oxygen they need. Or am I mistaken?


Dry yeast packs are purged of oxygen, the yeast grown contains the sterols that yeast need to multiply, oxygen allows production of these sterols.


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## 2much2spend

From my understanding dry yeast can drop close to 20%of it viability if it's not hydrated first. So the o2 would be even more help to see a healthy grown.

So what devices you guys using for your o2 infusion? Got pics?


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## Crusty

damoninja said:


> It has been in the back of my brain for a while now...
> 
> What are average costs for an O2 rig? Best places to buy cylinders (I'm in Adelaide)? I did see the Bunnings note, suspect they'd be among the cheapest...
> 
> *Edit: *bloody hell just read that the $200 is a refundable deposit, that seems like a bargain...
> 
> Follow up Q then how long's a $69er last (of O2 you sick bastards)


It's a bit of an outlay but fully refundable when you return the cylinder.
In terms of length of life, I'm not sure. If you were adding 2L/min for 60sec, you would get over 50 brews from one of those Trade Flame disposable oxygen cylinders from Bunnings, they hold 930ml of oxygen or around 110L. The CoreGas cylinder is a D size, so I don't think I'll be swapping over an empty cylinder for quite some time.


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## pat_00

My setup was a 'budget' O2 reg and stone from Grain and Grape, I think was $70 or $80, then a disposable O2 tank from Masters for $25.


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## Crusty

2much2spend said:


> From my understanding dry yeast can drop close to 20%of it viability if it's not hydrated first. So the o2 would be even more help to see a healthy grown.
> 
> So what devices you guys using for your o2 infusion? Got pics?


Oxywand from CraftBrewer.
CoreGas deal from bunnings
Cigweld oxygen regulator from Bunnings


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## 2much2spend

Crusty said:


> Oxywand from CraftBrewer.
> CoreGas deal from bunnings
> Cigweld oxygen regulator from Bunnings
> 
> 20160902_170927.jpg
> 
> 20160902_171105.jpg


I was looking at that one, I love the fact that is stainless.


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## 2much2spend

Crusty said:


> Oxywand from CraftBrewer.
> CoreGas deal from bunnings
> Cigweld oxygen regulator from Bunnings
> 
> 20160902_170927.jpg
> 
> 20160902_171105.jpg


I was looking at that one, I love the fact that is stainless.


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## 2much2spend

I've been looking at a tri clover inline defusion stone in a tee. They are rare but on line somewhere. Has anyone used this type?

https://www.morebeer.com/products/stainless-oxygenation-stone-15-tri-clamp.html


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## big78sam

Crusty said:


> Oxywand from CraftBrewer.
> CoreGas deal from bunnings
> Cigweld oxygen regulator from Bunnings
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20160902_170927.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20160902_171105.jpg


Scrolling through other threads and found this. A lot changes in 4 years hey?

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/63261-where-can-i-get-an-oxygen-tank/

Not trying to troll you, I just found it humorous. I've done the same about other things.


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## Killer Brew

I haven't brewed in 2 months now and mainly because I'm convinced that I'm somewhat wasting my time until I can at least get aeration into my wort and preferably with O2. This comes after consistent feedback from comps all pointing towards fermentation quality. Plans are in motion and hopefully I will be able to taste the difference.


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## Crusty

big78sam said:


> Scrolling through other threads and found this. A lot changes in 4 years hey?
> 
> http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/63261-where-can-i-get-an-oxygen-tank/
> 
> Not trying to troll you, I just found it humorous. I've done the same about other things.


My opinion is vastly different from 4yrs ago.
Oxygen is not essential & you can make award winning beers without it. Shaking the fermenter vigorously for some time or spraying the wort into your fermenter is adequate & you will get enough oxygen for the yeast to do their job, _*but, *_adding O2 to the wort before pitching will dissolve more oxygen for the yeast allowing much more vitality & a more complete ferment with a crisper, cleaner finish. It's definitely better & produces a far superior beer without question.


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## pcqypcqy

2much2spend said:


> I've been looking at a tri clover inline defusion stone in a tee. They are rare but on line somewhere. Has anyone used this type?
> 
> https://www.morebeer.com/products/stainless-oxygenation-stone-15-tri-clamp.html


I saw something along these lines at Fortitude when we visited, looked like it was a custom job with a ball lock post welded on to a tri clover end cap that presumably had a diffusion stone on the inside. This was inline between the plate chiller and the fermenter. 

On reviewing the photos, it wasn't a triclover, possibly threaded on. I guess it's all CIP.


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## Killer Brew

pat_00 said:


> My setup was a 'budget' O2 reg and stone from Grain and Grape, I think was $70 or $80, then a disposable O2 tank from Masters for $25.


$25 for an O2 is a bargain! Can't see anything like that on the Bunnings website though.


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## Midnight Brew

Been using O2 for years now and just some points I noticed in order of importance

1. Happy yeast (bigger krausens, dense yeast, minimal lag time).
2. My back thanks me for not lifting a fermentor and shaking the shit out of it.
3. Actually reaching the predicted FG (beersmith estimate)
4. Ferments were completed 2-3 days quicker.


I cant say I noticed taste difference because at the time I wasn't brewing consistent recipes, I never had a house beer at that point.


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## Zorco

Crusty said:


> Oxywand from CraftBrewer.
> CoreGas deal from bunnings
> Cigweld oxygen regulator from Bunnings
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20160902_170927.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20160902_171105.jpg


Dat's tight!


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## Kingy

Is it true that the most beers will drop an extra couple of points. I've always had trouble getting any beers below 1.012. Hydrometer is not out and even brewing a smash coopers beer mash at 62° for 2 hours didn't get it below 1.010. Wondering if this is my next step. Been wondering for a year or so but haha.


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## 2much2spend

Kingy said:


> Is it true that the most beers will drop an extra couple of points. I've always had trouble getting any beers below 1.012. Hydrometer is not out and even brewing a smash coopers beer mash at 62° for 2 hours didn't get it below 1.010. Wondering if this is my next step. Been wondering for a year or so but haha.


62°!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Phoney

For years I've been using a stick blender for up to 10 minutes, until the whole wort is like a milkshake - and the stick blender is almost too hot to touch. This had solved all of my previous stuck ferment woes (even for that stubborn bitch WY1969 ESB). But, reading this thread has made me wonder whether it's worth taking the extra step and investing in c02. :blink: 

So lets suppose I get one of these, this tank and that reg, what else do I need? Presumably just some 6mm vinyl hose & screw clamps?


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## Coldspace

Im using a tradeflame setup...

Used to aerate with paint stirrer for 3 minutes, but the O2 is better..

Will be buying the bunnings setup now my 2 kits and bits mates are impressed. Go thirds with them, bottle will last us poss years. Bargain for quality improvement.

I've tested this now on my house staples, a 150 lashes type pale ale dry hopped up, my IPA and my Irish red ale, these all have turned out superior in everyway.

I got home yesterday, normally would have 2 pots but was so impressed in quality that I had a session , bit tired now lol...

It's improved my mates kits, they are stocked..

I started really wanting to improve my beers. Fermentation us one of the major secretes... Using nice healthy starters really upped my quality last couple years, but the O2 really is the icing on the cake ...

But it's not only my all grain beers... My 2 novice mates have been cranking out a few decent kit beers in their setups, but this week after 02 their staples are a big improvement, and they were only pitching dried us05.

I usually bubble at 2 .5 ltrs a minute, run it for 60 secs on my ales.

Just got in a cold crash ATM , an octoberfest lager and Doppelbock , I purged through these for 90 secs at 2.5 ltrs minute, pitched cold at 10 degrees with decent stepped up starters of 2206 bavarian yeast, did the 2 week ferment, raised slowly over 1 week to 17, then over last few days dropped them back to cc.

They look awesome, the early ferment was vigorous , clean looking with hardly any sulphur smells. These should be yummy,can't wait to try them.

Got my kegmenter setup this weekend, so under pressure my lagers should finish up a little quicker at low temp as well.
Thanks to Dancraftbeers imput.

Have fun...


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## n87

I think the comp results gave me a big kick, i have filled just about every part of my shed with beer or wort.


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## damoninja

All flames out before the O2 valves go on huh? :beerbang: :beerbang:


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## Coldspace

Coodgee said:


> Does oxygen addition theoretically help when using the correct amount of dry yeast? I think I read somewhere that dry yeasts already have all the oxygen they need. Or am I mistaken?


My 2 mates just do kits and bits using good dried yeasts, in temp controlled fridges, aerating them with paint stirrers , been reasonable consistent beers over past year.

These latest batches they done, everything the same except I took my oxygen around on mix up day, both have called me this week raving about the improvement.

So it's going to work anyway you ferment.

Get a small setup, you will like it


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## Stouter

Just when I thought I had all the equipment I needed....


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## Stouter

Is there a difference or benefit between using the airpump kits and the bottled o2?


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## mstrelan

Stouter said:


> Is there a difference or benefit between using the airpump kits and the bottled o2?


Air can only get you something like 8ppm of DO and it takes 20 mins. O2 can get you the required 12ppm in 1-2 mins. Or something like that.


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## Stouter

Thanks mstrelan.
Just that being the tight arse I am I saw prices at about $30 for the pump kits.
As usual there's a reason for the price, it's time and quality. These three things seem like an interchangeable pyramid.

I know with kegging and CO2 it's 'recommended' that you use the filtered/food grade CO2 instead of the cheaper industrial grade, is there safer options like this for Oxy rather than using my plumbing mate's oxy kit?


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## BobtheBrewer

Coldspace,

Are you willing to share your 150 lashes recipe? I have tried to make this beer but have been unable to replicate the hop taste.
I also use O2. I have a 930ml bottle, regulator and airstone which I sourced from somebody on this forum. Will see if I can dig
up the details. I give each brew a 90 sec burst and have been using it now for nearly 18 months and expect the bottle to last me a long while yet.


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## TidalPete

Stouter said:


> Stouter, on 28 Oct 2016 - 3:39 PM, said:
> 
> 
> I know with kegging and CO2 it's 'recommended' that you use the filtered/food grade CO2 instead of the cheaper industrial grade,



Link please?


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## Stouter

TidalPete said:


> Link please?


I'm sure there's numerous links stating the filtering process and the possibilities of differing levels of the harmless unfiltered shite in the industrial grade.
Hence my, "recommended" inclusion.
I'm not advising one way or the other as I've never used it, but it makes sense to me that they'd have a different type for use with food/beer, etc. Prob not much difference in drinking bad water, or breathing bad air, eating food out of the wrong type of container....

No links, but Benzene and headaches rings a bell though.


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## TidalPete

Stouter said:


> Stouter, on 28 Oct 2016 - 8:38 PM, said:Stouter, on 28 Oct 2016 - 8:38 PM, said:
> 
> I'm sure there's numerous links stating the filtering process and the possibilities of differing levels of the harmless unfiltered shite in the industrial grade.
> Hence my, "recommended" inclusion.
> I'm not advising one way or the other as I've never used it, but it makes sense to me that they'd have a different type for use with food/beer, etc. Prob not much difference in drinking bad water, or breathing bad air, eating food out of the wrong type of container....
> 
> No links, but Benzene and headaches rings a bell though.


With so much misinformation thrown around without a proper search on AHB these days I'm not surprised it's (AHB that is) going down the shute.
Does supposedly food-grade C02 ring a bell????
No more responses from me on this topic.


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## Yob

Crusty said:


> Oxywand from CraftBrewer.
> CoreGas deal from bunnings
> Cigweld oxygen regulator from Bunnings
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20160902_170927.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20160902_171105.jpg


just needs an inline filter.. boom!

dafuq didnt I get this for my birthday instead of an x-box one which I wont find time to use? :blink: <_< :angry2:


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## Yob

TidalPete said:


> With so much misinformation thrown around without a proper search on AHB these days I'm not surprised it's (AHB that is) going down the shute.
> Does supposedly food-grade C02 ring a bell????
> No more responses from me on this topic.


sorry Pete, it was my understanding it's largely the tanks that make the difference.. I looked into these a while back and I was of the belief that with an inline filter (well maintained/replaced) that it's largely a moot point..

Not stirring shit up, just what I came to understand. I certainly wouldnt go this route without one.. Ive got the filters (somewhere) and a flow meter, just havnt ponied up for the tank yet.. I guess with so many ******* RIS's going through here I should make it sooner rather than later  (one system or the other)


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## Danscraftbeer

Yes to O2. It only takes a tiny bit. This bottle will last me the next 20 years of home brewing I reckon. Then if the Bunnings plan is the same its only $70 dollars to swap over. Or if you give up brewing altogether you can get your $200 down payment back on returning the bottle.


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## Yob

should get a dozen uses out of an inline filter (good ones) and they're pretty cheap..


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## Crusty

Yob said:


> should get a dozen uses out of an inline filter (good ones) and they're pretty cheap..


I think the inline filters are aimed at air pump injection as it's the surrounding air that will inevitably end up being injected into your wort & I wouldn't be using an air pump without one. No need for it though with pressurized O2 I'm pretty sure. I guess it wouldn't hurt to put one in but I don't think it's necessary.


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## Yob

Not the ones Ive bought.. certainly a lot better than the little ones for air pumps

was my understanding that the tank material is the "food grade" bit, the gas is largely the same.. I wouldnt use without the filters based on my research


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## Crusty

Yob said:


> Not the ones Ive bought.. certainly a lot better than the little ones for air pumps
> 
> was my understanding that the tank material is the "food grade" bit, the gas is largely the same.. I wouldnt use without the filters based on my research


I might look into that.
Do you have a link to where you got the filters from?


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## Stouter

TidalPete said:


> With so much misinformation thrown around without a proper search on AHB these days I'm not surprised it's (AHB that is) going down the shute.
> Does supposedly food-grade C02 ring a bell????
> No more responses from me on this topic.


Not throwing anything around, just inviting discussion and input from others who know the right answers. Which seems to have occurred a few posts on, without the need to get all do de do... :huh:
I'll use the search function more thoroughly next time eh?!


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## Yob

Crusty said:


> I might look into that.
> Do you have a link to where you got the filters from?


keg king... big ones, disc filters


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## Crusty

Yob said:


> keg king... big ones, disc filters


Cheers


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## peteru

O2 aeration is good, but if you are doing kits there is a very easy, safe and cheap way of getting good amounts of O2 into the fermenter.

I have a 15L cube that I fill with filtered water and a small amount of hydrogen peroxide. Chill the cube overnight. When doing kits or partial boil with extract, use this cold oxygenated water to top up the fermenter once to concentrated wort has been dissolved.

This technique, together with good starters (2L starter for 25L batch) will give me a very quick start (krausen forming within 4-6 hours), vigorous fermentation (blow-off tube going at around 3 bubbles every 2 seconds) and quick ferments (2-3 days)

When I was using a paint stirrer to aerate, krausen would not be evident until 12-48 hours, blow off tube would only bubble about once every 2 seconds and fermentation would take 5-7 days.

Hydrogen peroxide only costs about $4 for 100ml from the local chemist, which is enough for about 5-10 batches. Bigger bottles and higher concentrations are also available, if you want to reduce the cost even further.


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## MHB

Interesting idea peteru, my initial reaction would be that there isn't enough H2O2 going in to provide theO2 you need for full aeration (Oxygenation), but lets work through the numbers.
ppm and mg/L are the same so in a 25L batch where we want around 10ppm of dissolved O2 we want (25*10=) 250mg or 0.25g
The peroxide I found online for $4/100ml is 6% w/v, so 6g of H2O2/100mL.
Say you are getting 5 doses/ bottle you are adding 1.2g of H2O2
If all of the H2O2 breaks down into H2O and O2 (2H2O2 > 2H2O + O2) the yield is close to 50%, so your yield of O2 would be 0.6g

A bit of a surprise, but it looks like there is plenty of O2 available.
The only question being, is it breaking down or are you still getting most of it going into the brew as peroxide that will damage yeast, I suspect the answer is a bit of a mixture, but from your observations a fair fraction appears to be breaking down and going into the brew.

Have to give this a bit more thought.
Anyone with a DO meter want to do some measurements?
Mark


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## Adr_0

It would appear that yeast is quite the catalyst for H2O2 decomposition:
http://www.coolscience.org/CoolScience/KidScientists/h2o2.htm

Well I'm sold...


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## Shadime

Great thread,

Is O2 good for all beers? the reason I ask is that I thought it was important to have slower ferments for some beers which is why cooler temperatures are recommended. Or does temperature do something else?

Thanks


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## altone

Ok,. first to the OP Coldspace - it's "you're serious" not "your serious" sorry - pet hate

Now I've got that out of my system.

I have been aerating for some time, but the comment about disposable O2 cylinders from Masters made me think,
the local one is about to shut it's doors and selling stuff off below cost so I'm off to see if I can grab 
a few and a cheap regulator.
The aeration filter I use is same as the KegKing one (it might even have come from there)
so the rest of the setup should work fine as is.

Worth a shot at such a small investment if it might make my beer better.


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## Goose

Yob said:


> Not the ones Ive bought.. certainly a lot better than the little ones for air pumps
> 
> was my understanding that the tank material is the "food grade" bit, the gas is largely the same.. I wouldnt use without the filters based on my research


There is no way I would pump industrial or welding O2 into my beer, even with a filter.

Instead I use "Medical" grade O2. No filter required, but you might need a bigger wallet. 

https://www.boc.com.au/shop/en/au/medical-oxygen


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## SBOB

Goose said:


> There is no way I would pump industrial or welding O2 into my beer, even with a filter.
> 
> Instead I use "Medical" grade O2. No filter required, but you might need a bigger wallet.
> 
> https://www.boc.com.au/shop/en/au/medical-oxygen


and what do you think the difference is between 'industrial' and 'medical' oxygen?
O2 is O2 is O2. 
aint nothing growing in there, and they aint adding or removing any 'magic' from the industrial version


medical oxygen just requires a higher level of traceability and likely an extra decimal point worth of guarantee in its purity (i.e 99.999% v 99.9999%)


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## Bribie G

Fauldings brand 3% Hydrogen Peroxide at around $4.50 for 200ml is available in many Woolies and Coles stores, and I've seen it at chemists. It makes a good mouthwash after dental work or for peripheral gum disease.
It's usually in the same spot as the Liquid Paraffin, Calamine Lotion etc.

I always have a couple of bottles around, mostly for treating ingrowing toenails. Might give it a go with my next brew.




Edit: they also do glycerine in the same shape bottle, handy for yeast freezing.


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## altone

SBOB said:


> and what do you think the difference is between 'industrial' and 'medical' oxygen?
> O2 is O2 is O2.
> aint nothing growing in there, and they aint adding or removing any 'magic' from the industrial version
> 
> 
> medical oxygen just requires a higher level of traceability and likely an extra decimal point worth of guarantee in its purity (i.e 99.999% v 99.9999%)


Well back in the olden days, Oxy welding O2 had a lot of moisture in it and could contain lubricant particles from the compressors.
I'm hoping that current technology is much cleaner than way back then, but how clean?


O2 is O2 sure but what OTHER than O2 is present in industrial gases?

The difference between commercial grade and food grade is usually the latter doesn't contain impurities, same applies here surely.

Edit: Doesn't mean I'm not going to use industrial grade - just means I'll be aware it may not be as "clean" as medical grade


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## technobabble66

With the hydrogen peroxide thing, when added to wort, is there a risk of producing the type of oxidation HSA is meant to produce? 
Just thinking of trying it also. I generally brew over gravity, cube, then dilute out into the FV, anywhere from 0.5L to 5L extra tap water. So I'm thinking I'd probably be ~ using 2-3L, that probably won't be prepared overnight, or even if it was there'd still be a fair bit of H2O2 left in it by the time it goes into the wort. Also, 2/3rds of the time the wort would've been poured straight onto the yeastcake. 
Just trying to make sure I don't end up with a dud batch!


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## Batz

boddingtons best said:


> Well back in the olden days, Oxy welding O2 had a lot of moisture in it and could contain lubricant particles from the compressors.
> I'm hoping that current technology is much cleaner than way back then, but how clean?
> 
> 
> O2 is O2 sure but what OTHER than O2 is present in industrial gases?
> 
> The difference between commercial grade and food grade is usually the latter doesn't contain impurities, same applies here surely.
> 
> Edit: Doesn't mean I'm not going to use industrial grade - just means I'll be aware it may not be as "clean" as medical grade


 
Bullshit.

I worked for many years at C.I.G. now B.O.C. Both 02 and C02 commercial and medical grades came from the same
cryogenic tanks. The bottles where all filled together, and there was no special procedures taken for medical grade either.
When you produce 02 you do it medical grade and in large volumes, it would be stupid to produce two different grades of gas. Pay more if it makes you feel all fuzzy, that's why they have different bottles.





> and could contain lubricant particles from the compressors


Have you any idea what would happen if you where to use lubricant on an 02 compressor? We went to great lengths to stop this. Even our tools and hands were placed under black lights to make certain they were lubricant free. 

Batz


----------



## Zorco

Batz said:


> Bullshit.
> 
> I worked for many years at C.I.G. now B.O.C. Both 02 and C02 commercial and medical grades came from the same
> cryogenic tanks. The bottles where all filled together, and there was no special procedures taken for medical grade either.
> When you produce 02 you do it medical grade and in large volumes, it would be stupid to produce two different grades of gas. Pay more if it makes you feel all fuzzy, that's why they have different bottles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you any idea what would happen if you where to use lubricant on an 02 compressor? We went to great lengths to stop this. Even our tools and hands were placed under black lights to make certain they were lubricant free.
> 
> Batz


Batz has spoken.

I'm with batz.......he don't need/want me.... but I'm gettin' close to this shit ^^^^^^^^^ Coz True


----------



## Goose

Batz said:


> Bullshit.
> 
> I worked for many years at C.I.G. now B.O.C. Both 02 and C02 commercial and medical grades came from the same
> cryogenic tanks. The bottles where all filled together, and there was no special procedures taken for medical grade either.
> When you produce 02 you do it medical grade and in large volumes, it would be stupid to produce two different grades of gas. Pay more if it makes you feel all fuzzy, that's why they have different bottles.


Google said that its not so much about the quality of the product (as you point out), but the custody chain of the tanks, which makes sense and why the medical grade bottles cost more.

"*The difference* between the four various oxygen grades, (Aviation, Medical, Welding and Research) is not in the quality of the oxygen but rather, the custody chain of the tanks. 
*Here's the issue:* If a welding tank is used, but it's a rotated or swapped out tank, you will not know if the tank has been left open allowing contaminants to enter the tank. To then use that tank for medical applications would not be good, as impurities could be expelled from the tank. "

Fair point, Well I still like feeling all fuzzy and warm inside, particularly since one bottle lasts donkeys years....


----------



## Batz

And did Google say that happens in Australia?




> With so much misinformation thrown around without a proper search on AHB these days I'm not surprised it's (AHB that is) going down the shute.
> Does supposedly food-grade C02 ring a bell????
> No more responses from me on this topic.



Agree Pete, I've had enough.


----------



## TidalPete

Batz said:


> Batz, on 30 Oct 2016 - 4:44 PM, said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> I worked for many years at C.I.G. now B.O.C. Both 02 and C02 commercial and medical grades came from the same
> cryogenic tanks. The bottles where all filled together, and there was no special procedures taken for medical grade either.
> When you produce 02 you do it medical grade and in large volumes, it would be stupid to produce two different grades of gas. Pay more if it makes you feel all fuzzy, that's why they have different bottles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you any idea what would happen if you where to use lubricant on an 02 compressor? We went to great lengths to stop this. Even our tools and hands were placed under black lights to make certain they were lubricant free.
> 
> Batz


I'm with you on this one Batz.
Your info on this subject has always been spot-on & AHB newbs should learn a little more by using the Search Function before going off half-arsed. :lol:

Probably have not stood by my word in Post *41 earlier but thanks to your knowledgeable info in the quote above I can now be seen to be *VINDICATED! * :beerbang: :beerbang:


----------



## Zorco

Breathe...... Maintain the truth.... Don't give up..... Don't **** off..... Persist. Counter differing opinion with persistence and rational debate. AHB will be a better place.

Proof: Cosdog knows how to stand alone and then see the truth come clear to all eventually.


Edit: Less antagonistic.


----------



## Adr_0

I actually thought the medical grade (C size I think?) had the square valve on top to be coupled with the plumbing in ambulances and hospitals. I thought it was more to do with the size and fittings than the product inside... Whereas the industrial had different cylinder sizes (G for example) and valves/fittings.

My memory from BOC (I'm too young for CIG) is pretty foggy but there is indeed only one tank for everything, which was just to the south and across the road from the smaller argon vessel...


----------



## Goose

Batz said:


> And did Google say that happens in Australia?


Well I am sure there must be an AS publication that covers it. I doubt a hospital would accept cylinders used for industrial or even food applications, even if the Batz authority says the stuff inside is the same.

Anyway I'm upgrading to aviation grade, for maximum fuzziness.


----------



## Danscraftbeer

I Think of it like stainless steel. Its awesome, dependable, sanitary. Do you need to get the medical grade SS? No.

Honestly what can be feared? I don't think there is anything to be feared. What do they pump into scuba tanks mix? etc.
Fish are far easier to harm than people and they use welding O2 for Aquaculture.
As for flavours I think I started a thread when I first tried injected O2 in my brews. A soapy flavour but I must go on record that it wasn't the welding grade O2. It was a new yeast strain I just didn't like.
It gets a good polish on your beers.
Welding grade O2. It really does just take a tiny amount. This is the thing. Its pure O2. Like a tiny bit of catalyst.
$0.02


----------



## Goose

Danscraftbeer said:


> I Think of it like stainless steel. Its awesome, dependable, sanitary. Do you need to get the medical grade SS? No.
> 
> Honestly what can be feared? I don't think there is anything to be feared. What do they pump into scuba tanks? etc.


I think of it like insurance. You probably don't need it, but there are also many things we do in making beer that we probably don't need to do either, but we do it by personal choice.

I fully agree we are home brewers and are not surgeons or paramedics, but the latter do not use O2 cylinders from Bunnings for a reason.


----------



## Crusty

Goose said:


> I think of it like insurance. You probably don't need it, but there are also many things we do in making beer that we probably don't need to do either, but we do it by personal choice.
> 
> I fully agree we are home brewers and are not surgeons or paramedics, but the latter do not use O2 cylinders from Bunnings for a reason.


I wasn't going to weigh in on this debate as it's been discussed before several times but O2 is O2 & all cylinders get filled from the same source.
Medical grade O2 actually contains water as it's needed to stop the nasal passages from drying up when being administered. The medical grade certification is absolute bullshit & it's all to do with legislation & just another way the Government can lay down the path for certification, regulation & of course, money. For this reason & this reason alone, it's the certification that will cost you more but it's the same stuff. In saying that though, I'm certainly not knocking your decision to choose the medical grade O2, your choice, your money & if it makes you feel more comfortable having that certification, then all good & well but the O2 I'm putting into my beer is not of less quality than your using, your just paying more. I took out 1st place in the Lager category at the North Coast National home brew & spirit comp this month & I used my Bunnings O2 setup. Certainly nothing detected in that beer from an industrial source. I scored a 2nd place for my Rum as well...... h34r:
It may be just a pumpkin scone certified comp but around 80 brewers entered this year & I'm happy to take the win & a 2nd place.


----------



## big78sam

OP inspired me. Went to masters and bought a benzomatic o2 cylinder for 22 bucks down from 36. I would have bought 2 but they only had 1 left.

Craftbrewer sell regulators designed for these cylinders so i rang them and asked about industrial versus food grade. They said its no issue using them so thats good enough for me.


----------



## Coodgee

big78sam said:


> OP inspired me. Went to masters and bought a benzomatic o2 cylinder for 22 bucks down from 36. I would have bought 2 but they only had 1 left.
> 
> Craftbrewer sell regulators designed for these cylinders so i rang them and asked about industrial versus food grade. They said its no issue using them so thats good enough for me.


I have weighed up that option and I think it is likely to be expensive in the long term and it will shit me when I run out of gas. As I understand you don't get much gas in those little disposable ones. also consider that masters won't be around for long so the canisters might be hard to get a hold of.


----------



## Jack of all biers

peteru said:


> O2 aeration is good, but if you are doing kits there is a very easy, safe and cheap way of getting good amounts of O2 into the fermenter.
> 
> I have a 15L cube that I fill with filtered water and a small amount of hydrogen peroxide. Chill the cube overnight. When doing kits or partial boil with extract, use this cold oxygenated water to top up the fermenter once to concentrated wort has been dissolved.
> 
> Hydrogen peroxide only costs about $4 for 100ml from the local chemist, which is enough for about 5-10 batches. Bigger bottles and higher concentrations are also available, if you want to reduce the cost even further.


Peteru, your post got me wondering on the whole adding O2 via H2O2 method and whether it could be employed on AG brewing also. Potentially adding a calculated amount of H2O2 to cooled wort (less than 25C) in the FV to oxygenate it prior to adding the yeast starter. I'm guessing it would take more time that O2 gas addition, but would be a lot cheaper in initial outlay and ongoing cost.



MHB said:


> If all of the H2O2 breaks down into H2O and O2 (2H2O2 > 2H2O + O2) the yield is close to 50%, so your yield of O2 would be 0.6g
> 
> A bit of a surprise, but it looks like there is plenty of O2 available.
> The only question being, is it breaking down or are you still getting most of it going into the brew as peroxide that will damage yeast, I suspect the answer is a bit of a mixture, but from your observations a fair fraction appears to be breaking down and going into the brew.
> 
> Have to give this a bit more thought.


Especially once MHB had done the numbers, although having done a little internet research, I'm not sure even 50% of the H2O2 would break down overnight in your water as the decomposition of H2O2 is quite variable. I'm thinking that once it is added to the wort then the speed of decomposition into H2O and O2 would greatly increase. Once yeast is added this would increase the rate again, as per Adro's link (if any H2O2 were even left after contact with the wort). So once the H2O2 solution is added to the wort the O2 level should theoretically increase. Right?



Bribie G said:


> Fauldings brand 3% Hydrogen Peroxide at around $4.50 for 200ml
> 
> I always have a couple of bottles around, mostly for treating ingrowing toenails. Might give it a go with my next brew.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hydrogen peroxide.JPG


My only counter thought is that normally H2O2 (as linked by Bribie above) has stabilizers added to keep the H2O2 from decomposing in the container before you the consumer use it. A quick internet search reveals a lot of scare mongering out there about such stabilizers, but no proof or links to research. That being said, most producers are not producing H2O2 solutions for ingestion by humans, so it is hard to know the health implications of consuming said stabilizers (drunk by the end user of the beer, as opposed to a mouth wash that is spat out again). 

H2O2 is sold without stabilizers (sold as "Food grade" Hydrogen peroxide), but I'd wonder about the percentage (35%) they claim and how long it would last in its packaging without the stabilizers added (H2O2 is more stable in cold and acidic conditions). Also the stabilizer free H2O2 is sold at rates like $13 per 236 ml of 3% solution online which is a fair bit more expensive than the pharmacy bought one at $4 to $5.

Don't get me wrong, I am very interested by the use of H2O2 to oxygenate the wort (so much so that I'd like to try it), but am wondering if there is more info/knowledge out there about about the different reactions (positive and negative) between the different stabilizer additives with the wort and any by-products/effects on the fermentation/end product. Adding chemicals to wort that I don't know anything about keeps me from trying this one until someone can point me in the right direction. So with that in mind can someone who has a better mind for chemistry look at the below info I found at this site www.h2o2.com/faqs/FaqDetail.aspx?fId=11 and tell us if any of those stabilizers are a potential issue?

"Most commercial grades of H2O2 contain chelants and sequestrants which minimize its decomposition under normal storage and handling conditions.
The types of stabilizers used in H2O2 vary between producers and product grades. Common stabilizers include:

Colloidal stannate and sodium pyrophosphate (present at 25 - 250 mg/L) are traditional mainstays.
Organophosphonates (e.g., Monsanto's Dequest products) are increasingly common.
Nitrate (for pH adjustment and corrosion inhibition) and phosphoric acid (for pH adjustment) also are used.
Colloidal silicate is used to sequester metals and thereby minimize H2O2 decomposition in certain applications that depend on the bleaching ability of H2O2 in alkali.
In some applications, a high degree of stabilization is needed; whereas, in others (e.g., drinking water treatment or semiconductor manufacture) product purity is more important. For most environmental applications, H2O2 stabilization does not affect product performance."


----------



## Dave70

Lets be clear. This is the animal we're talking about right?
If so, I'm spewing. I've been wasting it on cutting and welding projects when I could have had better beers for ******* years now..


----------



## abyss

Danscraftbeer said:


> I Think of it like stainless steel. Its awesome, dependable, sanitary. Do you need to get the medical grade SS? No.
> Honestly what can be feared? I don't think there is anything to be feared. What do they pump into scuba tanks mix? etc.
> Fish are far easier to harm than people and they use welding O2 for Aquaculture.
> As for flavours I think I started a thread when I first tried injected O2 in my brews. A soapy flavour but I must go on record that it wasn't the welding grade O2. It was a new yeast strain I just didn't like.
> It gets a good polish on your beers.
> Welding grade O2. It really does just take a tiny amount. This is the thing. Its pure O2. Like a tiny bit of catalyst.
> $0.02


Don't fear Ive had the bends a few times and the first time I was in the decompression chamber at the Mallacoota Abalone co op when they ran out of medical O2 and the locals brought in a few welding bottles to keep me going. It tasted the same to me and I'm still alive and drinking.


----------



## abyss

Dave70 said:


> Lets be clear. This is the animal we're talking about right?
> If so, I'm spewing. I've been wasting it on cutting and welding projects when I could have had better beers for ******* years now..


That's the shit Dave.


----------



## Dave70

abyss said:


> That's the shit Dave.


Splendid! 

Now one of these and I'm good to go.


----------



## Radshoes

Dave70 said:


> Lets be clear. This is the animal we're talking about right?
> If so, I'm spewing. I've been wasting it on cutting and welding projects when I could have had better beers for ******* years now..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YEP JUST DIP THAT IN YOUR FERMENTER AND YOU WILL HAVE BETTER BEERS


----------



## Zorco

Dave70 said:


> Splendid!
> 
> Now one of these and I'm good to go.


Same cylinder, new reg and that stone from TidalPete.

It is great kit.

My cylinder came from "another place" and I'll drop it near a BOC place when she is empty. Then I'm going the Bunnings system.


----------



## Dave70

Radshoes said:


> Lets be clear. This is the animal we're talking about right?
> If so, I'm spewing. I've been wasting it on cutting and welding projects when I could have had better beers for ******* years now..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YEP JUST DIP THAT IN YOUR FERMENTER AND YOU WILL HAVE BETTER BEERS
Click to expand...

Do you need to re-hydrate it first?


----------



## pcqypcqy

Dave70 said:


> Do you need to re-hydrate it first?


I would, you need to get all that rust and dirt back into solution before adding to the beer.


----------



## damoninja

Dave70 said:


> Do you need to re-hydrate it first?





pcqypcqy said:


> I would, you need to get all that rust and dirt back into solution before adding to the beer.


You're better off adding during the boil, if you _really_ want to oxygenate your beer




vvvv can't delete this box :/


----------



## Yob

Dave70 said:


> Splendid!
> 
> Now one of these and I'm good to go.





Dave70 said:


> Splendid!
> 
> Now one of these and I'm good to go.


And an inline filter ...


----------



## peteru

Jack of all biers said:


> Peteru, your post got me wondering on the whole adding O2 via H2O2 method
> ...
> My only counter thought is that normally H2O2 (as linked by Bribie above) has stabilizers added to keep the H2O2 from decomposing in the container before you the consumer use it.


I have never even considered that there would be additional stabilisers added to the 6% v/v hydrogen peroxide I got from the chemist. My naive assumption was that it was 6% H2O2 and 94% H2O. As far as flavour goes, I have not detected anything that would stick out as contamination, but that does not mean it's not there. I actually happen to be allergic to nitrates, so if those are present I'll be ditching the use of this product. I'll try to contact the manufacturer to find out.

I performed a few (unscientific) experiments along the way to figure out if H2O2 could be used and if so, what's the simplest effective method. Given some of the extra information in this thread, I'll be looking at further tweaks, such as adding a catalyst, like a bit of yeast, to the chilled water. Although, what I do now seems to work pretty well.

My first point of investigation was to determine if adding H2O2 to a yeast starter on a stirplate would have detrimental effect on yeast and potentially kill it. It turned out that the yeast was fine, even when I added the undiluted 6% directly, drop by drop from a pipette. Next was a simple fermentation test. Two jars of wort, one with a few drops of H2O2 added, both inoculated with the same amount of yeast slurry and left to ferment side by side. The H2O2 jar performed "faster" and the resulting beer aroma and flavour was different from each jar. I can't say I had a preference for one or the other, they were just different. I never bothered carbonating or chilling either of those results, it was purely a quick sample evaluation at fermenting temperature to determine if the results were drinkable and comparable. The next test was a batch of Cooper's Stout can with recultured Cooper's Sparkling Ale yeast starter. This was followed by an American Pale Ale and an IPA that I kegged and keg hopped last night. Both of those had large San Diego Super Yeast starters. The stout is now a few weeks old and still pretty good - better than every other time I brewed it before, but I've also introduced fermentation temperature control recently, so temperature could be the big factor rather than additional O2. The APA is sensational, but I've never done that recipe, so can't compare. Same with the IPA recipe, it's first time for me.

So, I can conclude that adding H2O2 doesn't ruin the beer. I think it may improve it, but to be sure a proper controlled side-by-side comparison would be in order. I'm probably not going to get a chance to do that, because with Christmas and summer holidays/parties coming up, I'll be flat out trying to brew enough beer to keep friends and family hydrated. I would be very happy to see others have a go and report on their findings. My dilution rate has been around 1.4-1.5ml to one litre of water when using the 6% v/v hydrogen peroxide from the chemist. I add about 12-15l of this treated water to about 5 or 6l of liquid extract dissolved in warm water. My starters tend to be in the 1.5-2l range. Based on the maths that Mark posted, I could possibly increase that rate to 2-3ml per litre of water because the rest of the ingredients will dilute everything even further.

Anyway, I thought I'd share the idea and get a conversation going. Quite happy to hear arguments for and against as well as suggestions for improvements to the process.


----------



## breakbeer

Killer Brew said:


> I haven't brewed in 2 months now and mainly because I'm convinced that I'm somewhat wasting my time until I can at least get aeration into my wort and preferably with O2. This comes after consistent feedback from comps all pointing towards fermentation quality. Plans are in motion and hopefully I will be able to taste the difference.


Did you like the taste of your own brew before some judges told you it needed work?


----------



## Crusty

breakbeer said:


> Did you like the taste of your own brew before some judges told you it needed work?


I'm sure his beers tasted good to him but a comment like that from the judges would make me want to improve my brewing practice.
I'm sure we all want to produce the best beer we can & O2 is just another step in the right direction.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

Yob said:


> And an inline filter ...


/Thread.

I use industrial grade oxygen from my oxy acetylene rig* which I convert to food grade oxygen with a 0.2 µm gas filter, available from your LHBS.





* I do a bit of brazing of stainless for the bikes.


----------



## Coldspace

This O2 really is easy, I'm enjoying it.

Kegmenter with modified dip tube cut back 20mm like danscraftbeer . Sanitise with some starsan, sit into bottom of my chest freezer which had 2 x cubes of a Munich helles chilled down to 8 degrees and 3 x 3 ltr decanted starters of 34/70.

Sit cubes on my neighbouring chesty, siphon chilled wort into kegmenter approx 42 ltrs, drop in airstone and bubble with oxygen for 2 mins, pitch yeast, seal up. Add valve, 2 days now and it's hissing away at 13 psi . Longer lag due to cold pitch. Now at 12 degrees.

Can't wait to try it, should be nice and clean. The beauty of the kegmenter is I can do what danscraftbeer does and pressure transfer out into my 2 cornies, and if needed put my inline beer filter in place .

Done a few crackin lagers over the years, but then some not so crackin ones. Hopefully my new toys get abit more consistency and speed.

Ching, Ching .


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

peteru said:


> I performed a few (unscientific) experiments along the way to figure out if H2O2 could be used and if so, what's the simplest effective method.
> 
> My first point of investigation was to determine if adding H2O2 to a yeast starter on a stirplate would have detrimental effect on yeast and potentially kill it. It turned out that the yeast was fine, even when I added the undiluted 6% directly, drop by drop from a pipette.


That was a brilliant idea.

Most aerobic organisms (yeast included) have an enzyme called catalase which serves a protective function by degrading peroxide to oxygen*. Adding the peroxide directly to a small amount of yeast will ensure that this kicks in and the peroxide is converted to oxygen.

If you are concerned about additives, I use AR grade 30% peroxide to make up an alkaline peroxide etchant to use when bonding Ti. It has guaranteed levels of impurities and lists no preservatives. I'd be happy to send you some except it's a classified dangerous good for transport, if you are ever in Melbourne you could pick it up.




* it's a useful discriminatory test in determinative bacteriology: if adding peroxide makes the culture fizz, it's catalase positive.


----------



## Crusty

Coldspace said:


> This O2 really is easy, I'm enjoying it.
> 
> Kegmenter with modified dip tube cut back 20mm like danscraftbeer . Sanitise with some starsan, sit into bottom of my chest freezer which had 2 x cubes of a Munich helles chilled down to 8 degrees and 3 x 3 ltr decanted starters of 34/70.
> 
> Sit cubes on my neighbouring chesty, siphon chilled wort into kegmenter approx 42 ltrs, drop in airstone and bubble with oxygen for 2 mins, pitch yeast, seal up. Add valve, 2 days now and it's hissing away at 13 psi . Longer lag due to cold pitch. Now at 12 degrees.
> 
> Can't wait to try it, should be nice and clean. The beauty of the kegmenter is I can do what danscraftbeer does and pressure transfer out into my 2 cornies, and if needed put my inline beer filter in place .
> 
> Done a few crackin lagers over the years, but then some not so crackin ones. Hopefully my new toys get abit more consistency and speed.
> 
> Ching, Ching .


I've got a Sanke fermenting kit from Brewer's Hardware in the states & like you, I pressure transfer from my 50L keg fermenter to a bottling bucket or serving kegs.
My first two beers using O2 are fantastic & very clean & crisp in flavour. I don't know why I waited so long to get on the wagon.


----------



## Zorco

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> That was a brilliant idea.
> 
> I use AR grade 30% peroxide


http://www.anpros.com.au/shipping/


http://www.anpros.com.au/food-grade-products/hydrogen-peroxide-30-food-grade/

Will try tomorrow. 

This AHB place is amazing.


----------



## madpierre06

To be honest, I was keen to go the O2 route, a fellow AHB'er most generously gifted me a reg, then I saw the other thread on O2'ing and the danger side of it freaked me out a bit (the whole 'unknown' thingy there). Still gonna go for it, it just had me freaked out. Just need a bottle and stone and away we go.


----------



## DUANNE

nothing can live in a pure oxygen environment and even the smallest drop of oil or contamination can react explosively with pure pressurized o2. so im happy to use my bernzomatic setup sans filter and keep making good beer without spending up big on medical o2.


----------



## Batz

madpierre06 said:


> To be honest, I was keen to go the O2 route, a fellow AHB'er most generously gifted me a reg, then I saw the other thread on O2'ing and the danger side of it freaked me out a bit (the whole 'unknown' thingy there). Still gonna go for it, it just had me freaked out. Just need a bottle and stone and away we go.


A big deep breath mate, perhaps a home brewed beer. Then get that regulator and 02 happening! :beerbang:


----------



## Killer Brew

breakbeer said:


> Did you like the taste of your own brew before some judges told you it needed work?


Some yes, some no. I was struggling with my higher gravity beers >6% and couldn't isolate the issue. Appears it was diacetyl but I hadn't had it identified prior so didn't recognise it. Now that I know it I am picking it up in quite a few of my beers I still have on hand. Looking at my fermentation records and can clearly see the lag and relatively slow overall ferment on bigger beers. I do appropriate sized starters and have temp control so I'm confident the aeration is my issue.


----------



## Zorco

madpierre06 said:


> To be honest, I was keen to go the O2 route, a fellow AHB'er most generously gifted me a reg, then I saw the other thread on O2'ing and the danger side of it freaked me out a bit (the whole 'unknown' thingy there). Still gonna go for it, it just had me freaked out. Just need a bottle and stone and away we go.


If you have a good O2 reg, we could head to Bunnings Stafford together to get our cylinders. Maybe in the next couple of weeks?


----------



## Jack of all biers

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> http://www.anpros.com.au/shipping/
> 
> 
> http://www.anpros.com.au/food-grade-products/hydrogen-peroxide-30-food-grade/
> 
> Will try tomorrow.
> 
> This AHB place is amazing.


Ok now I have to find a similar place selling this stuff in Adelaide as the freight charges on top of the 500ml price makes O2 canisters and kit almost affordable.


----------



## husky

Is anyone using a DO meter to measure the O2 going into solution? If so what make/modelare you using? The ones I'm looking at jump in price from around $400 to $2k with not much in between. Would be good to quantify how much goes in for fermentation and also test through the packaging process to see how much ends up in the keg after transfers etc.


----------



## welly2

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> If you have a good O2 reg, we could head to Bunnings Stafford together to get our cylinders. Maybe in the next couple of weeks?


Sounds very romantic!


----------



## Zorco

Yep, it does.


----------



## madpierre06

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> If you have a good O2 reg, we could head to Bunnings Stafford together to get our cylinders. Maybe in the next couple of weeks?


Always up for anything that's likely to end in beers. Easy as mate.


----------



## peteru

Both the food grade and pharmaceutical grade hydrogen peroxide at 3% and 6% concentrations are not classified as dangerous goods and good to ship using normal post. It's the products in concentrations above 10% that require special handling. So, there's always the option of sticking with the 6% concentration, just getting a purer product than what the chemist sells. Keeping a 1l bottle refrigerated should not be too hard.

No product data sheets at ANPROS for the two types, but I suspect that the pharmaceutical product would be as suitable as it can get.


----------



## Adr_0

This is a great topic. Normally I dip something else in my wort to give it a bit of a kick, but a greasy, rusty cylinder sounds like just what the doctor ordered. 

In parallel with not brewing, I've been looking at low DO methods, and I think somewhere it was suggested to oxygenate AFTER pitching or with pitching. On one hand I guess this leans towards this O2 being very quickly used in metabolism of sugahz, but if H2O2 is added (to wort, after pitching) I wonder if there'd be prefertial bonding if the O to proteins, etc rather than other H202 to form O2. The relative reaction rates under different conditions (temperature, pH, concentration) would be critical... Or just try it I guess. 

I'm also curious about yeast being a catalyst for this. This would suggest that the reaction rate for H202 to O2 is increased, but does it affect/improve selectivity (does O2 reaction rate increase more than O-R bonding reaction rate)? Does yeast come out unscathed, or should cheap yeast be sacrificed in water beforehand?

So, I guess assuming:
-no change to yeast
-the yeast does preferentially increase decomposition to O2 over forming O-R components... 

...then it seems to me that the yeast (in high volume) should be pitched, allowed to mix for a little while, then oxidisation should be done - eg add food grade H2O2, drop in rusty G size cylinder, etc. This is probably supported by the low DO philosophy.

Lot of speculation in there, so think my next batch will be a three way. And after the three way, do you three different yeast tests.


----------



## peteru

It's fun when you start dabbling in something that has not been done over and over before. The idea, that no matter which way it ends up going, you'll learn something, is appealing. It could turn out that H2O2 is pointless or even detrimental, or it could be that it's a piss easy way for homebrewers to add enough O2 to improve their beers. It'll be great to see others have a go.


----------



## Zorco

peteru said:


> It's fun when you start dabbling in something that has not been done over and over before. The idea, that no matter which way it ends up going, you'll learn something, is appealing. It could turn out that H2O2 is pointless or even detrimental, or it could be that it's a piss easy way for homebrewers to add enough O2 to improve their beers. It'll be great to see others have a go.


I'm in for learning. Thanks for sharing the idea to begin with!


----------



## Killer Brew

Adr_0 said:


> On one hand I guess this leans towards this O2 being very quickly used in metabolism of sugahz, but if H2O2 is added (to wort, after pitching) I wonder if there'd be prefertial bonding if the O to proteins, etc rather than other H202 to form O2..


Sugahz is my new favourite misspelling. So gangsta!


----------



## alcoadam

As far as "medical grade" o2 goes, it is filled with the same stuff that fills the industrial one.

When an industrial bottle is returned it will simply be refilled, regardless of what is left in the bottle.
"Med grade" bottles will be emptied first, purged, then filled in a vacuum environment.

Just depends how fussy you are I suppose...


----------



## SBOB

o2 also helps in the speed of fermentation I have found

Have an IPA at the moment which has gone from 1.059 down to 1.010 in under 4 days with WLP090


----------



## madpierre06

Getting excited about this. Quite keen.


----------



## Roosterboy

There is a White Labs YouTube video where they compare Using Oxygen , not using it and shaking the shit out of the fermenter
( assuming approx. 22 L of wort ) pre yeast pitching.
They found shaking the hell out of the fermenter for 10 mins was just as good as using Oxygen.


----------



## Zorco

Wyeast YouTube video where they talk about how hard it is to aerate your wort by shaking if you're not using oxygen.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=75gpehf_6Gk


----------



## Batz

> They found shaking the hell out of the fermenter for 10 mins was just as good as using Oxygen.


No might give that one a miss.


----------



## Roosterboy

Batz said:


> No might give that one a miss.


Not for everyone and it could probably contribute to the occasional myocardial infarction ( death by brewing) but just a thought.


----------



## SBOB

Roosterboy said:


> Not for everyone and it could probably contribute to the occasional myocardial infarction ( death by brewing) but just a thought.


plus using 'air' thats just absorbed by shaking means thats 10 minutes of mixing in air and whatever 'bits' are floating around in it, and from my reading/podcast listening, shaking is a DO max of about ~8ppm.. enough for 'good enough' but not 'ideal'


----------



## Adr_0

And probably not good for head retention.


----------



## Coldspace

SBOB said:


> o2 also helps in the speed of fermentation I have found
> 
> Have an IPA at the moment which has gone from 1.059 down to 1.010 in under 4 days with WLP090


I have just found the exact same thing , 1048 down to 1015 in 3 days after 36 hr lag due to an 8 degree pitch , munich helles at 10-11 degrees cold pitched and O2 this week in my new kegmenter. This batch used to take like 10 or so days in my old plastic fermenters arerated with paint stirrer for like 4 mins, frothing up everywhere etc.

Funny thing is , had a colleague from work drop in for afew of my new IPA O2 beers, my best yet, crisp as, then went to the brew house , showed the kegmenter, which tonight has slowed to a non-existant hiss , 4 days down now, purged hydro sample into jug, tested 1012 so nearly there, I'm thinking 1008 or so, we then actually poured half a pot off the kegmenter, poured slightly cloudy, 14 degrees, 80% done, 70% carbonated lol,
And it was actually drinkable , 
Well after 4 x 6.6 IPA 's anything is possible lol

It's all heading into the right territory anyway.


----------



## Crusty

Roosterboy said:


> There is a White Labs YouTube video where they compare Using Oxygen , not using it and shaking the shit out of the fermenter
> ( assuming approx. 22 L of wort ) pre yeast pitching.
> They found shaking the hell out of the fermenter for 10 mins was just as good as using Oxygen.


I'd question the validity of that.
There's no way you will get the same oxygen saturation from shaking the fermenter as opposed to pressurized O2.
Not questioning whether you seen the video but I question those results. I'm glad I'm not tossing my 50L keg fermenter around for 10mins.


----------



## peteru

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, even with the hydrogen peroxide method for adding O2, the ferments are much faster than with paint stirrer. Somewhere between 2/3 and 1/2 the time, going from 5-7 days to 2-4 days for ales fermented at 17C-19C. Lag is also much shorter.


----------



## Stouter

Found a supplier offering 1L O2 cylinder with reg for just under $100. The reg fitting looks to be an M10, same as the cylinders at Bunnings. Does this sound like a reasonable deal?


----------



## Brewnicorn

Stouter said:


> Found a supplier offering 1L O2 cylinder with reg for just under $100. The reg fitting looks to be an M10, same as the cylinders at Bunnings. Does this sound like a reasonable deal?


I don't know a lot about it but the tank & reg seem to be well over $100 for many setups. I'm sure the exposure would be welcomed on the blog!


----------



## Frothy1

From memory, the only downside is how long the hyrdo sample takes to settle.


----------



## Stouter

Brewnicorn said:


> I don't know a lot about it but the tank & reg seem to be well over $100 for many setups. I'm sure the exposure would be welcomed on the blog!


There's also the reg as a separate purchase for $45. But I'm confused and drunk right now too so I need to go to Bunnings tomorrow (sober) and make sure I'm looking at the same thing. Also requires stone, filter and some hoose I suppose.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Disposable-Gas-Bottle-PURE-OXYGEN-1x-l-litre-Bottle-Combo-600037-MIG-TIG-/111621305999?hash=item19fd25f68f

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Disposable-Gas-Bottle-Regulator-Argon-CO2-Bossweld-600044-/111359555038?hash=item19ed8bf5de


----------



## SBOB

Stouter said:


> There's also the reg as a separate purchase for $45. But I'm confused and drunk right now too so I need to go to Bunnings tomorrow (sober) and make sure I'm looking at the same thing. Also requires stone, filter and some hoose I suppose.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Disposable-Gas-Bottle-PURE-OXYGEN-1x-l-litre-Bottle-Combo-600037-MIG-TIG-/111621305999?hash=item19fd25f68f
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Disposable-Gas-Bottle-Regulator-Argon-CO2-Bossweld-600044-/111359555038?hash=item19ed8bf5de


If you go looking for the other main thread regarding o2 setup, that regulator is discussed in much detail. 

Some say it's not valid for an o2 setup, others disagree. 
Personally, I'm using that regulator with the o2 bottle from bunnings (I posted a full part list of my setup in the other thread)


That thread is here
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/77928-different-wort-aeration-kits/


----------



## Rocker1986

Crusty said:


> Oxywand from CraftBrewer.
> CoreGas deal from bunnings
> Cigweld oxygen regulator from Bunnings
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20160902_170927.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20160902_171105.jpg


I like this idea. After reading through a bit of the thread and others' comments about the improvements to their beers I may well jump on board myself. Just another thing to add to the Craftbrewer shopping list next time I go down there. Doesn't sound like a huge investment for better results either, which is excellent, and I'm always looking for ways to improve my beers. I'm sure SWMBO will just roll her eyes at this latest wishlist item though. :lol:


----------



## Dave70

Anybody know if commercial breweries incorporate O2 as part of the process?


----------



## hotmelt

Was in Masters last week and they had CIG O2 regulators for $60.


----------



## SBOB

Dave70 said:


> Anybody know if commercial breweries incorporate O2 as part of the process?


they absolutely do
most would have in-line oxygen in their transfers from kettle or whirlpool to fermenter
e.g. https://byo.com/bock/item/1891-oxygenating-wort-tips-from-the-pros


----------



## Killer Brew

Dave70 said:


> Anybody know if commercial breweries incorporate O2 as part of the process?


Absolutely! Usually inline between the Heat Exchanger and the FV


----------



## Coldspace

Definitely inline O2 in most if not all craft breweries, well the ones I've been to have.

It's a small investment , but in my humble opinion made a professional polish to my quality .

I've been pumping out at least one grainfather batch per week past 18 months of grain father ownership. Mainly do double batches in it to save time on standard brews. I usually do a double batch, double brew so I can get 4 cubes once a month. Got thirsty family.

3 fermentation fridges, have been really paying attention to large healthy yeast starters, temps, water quality and lots of other things.

My regular staples I've had on tap here are fairly consistant. But in the quest to improvement I followed SMBo and crustys imput and invested in my O2 setup.

It's still early days, but we have on tap now 6 batches of 3 diff regular styles,

And the 02 has given them all a nice polish up, and I think how easy and cheap it was, and the beers seem just better, and I have some regular piss head beer mates over and all gave positive thumbs up.

We have tested this method in my 2 brewing mates setups who do kits and bits and they all have improved.

So in my opinion, get a set up if your serious about improving the beer quality.

Another thing I've noticed, is when cleaning out my fermenters, there is also a lot more yeast crap in the bottom, so obliviously to mme there has been a better breeding program going on inside .

I wish I did this years ago, but anyway we are all learning things as we go through the motions...

My wife recons I'm somesort of mad scientist lately ha ha,

If the delivery is on time my 4 mini kegs should get here today....

Funny thing is, it's her birthday today... But I did go get her a gold bracelet and taking day off work today to take her out to lunch.... Then the sarvo, running the grainfather lol....


----------



## pcqypcqy

Dave70 said:


> Anybody know if commercial breweries incorporate O2 as part of the process?


Check out my post earlier (no. 23), this is how Fortitude do it at their smaller brewery.


----------



## altone

Batz said:


> *quoting Boddingtons Best*
> Well back in the olden days, Oxy welding O2 had a lot of moisture in it and could contain lubricant particles from the compressors.





Batz said:


> Bullshit.
> 
> I worked for many years at C.I.G. now B.O.C. Both 02 and C02 commercial and medical grades came from the same
> cryogenic tanks. The bottles where all filled together, and there was no special procedures taken for medical grade either.
> When you produce 02 you do it medical grade and in large volumes, it would be stupid to produce two different grades of gas. Pay more if it makes you feel all fuzzy, that's why they have different bottles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you any idea what would happen if you where to use lubricant on an 02 compressor? We went to great lengths to stop this. Even our tools and hands were placed under black lights to make certain they were lubricant free.
> 
> Batz


Of course you are absolutely right about the oil, - Oil and oxygen don't play well together.

I apologise to Batz and anyone that took my post as fact.

I think maybe I was getting mixed up with normal air compressors and also perhaps the Acetone you can get from poorly stored acetylene bottles.
[We used them on a portable trolley that often got left lying down instead of standing up.]
In my defence it was a bloody long time ago - yer honour.

*@Roosterboy and Crusty*


> There is a White Labs YouTube video where they compare Using Oxygen , not using it and shaking the shit out of the fermenter
> ( assuming approx. 22 L of wort ) pre yeast pitching.
> They found shaking the hell out of the fermenter for 10 mins was just as good as using Oxygen.
> 
> I'd question the validity of that.


Me too,
I saw the video but find it hard to believe that you'd get enough dissolved oxygen that way to be as effective as 
actually injecting O2.
My experience comparing shaking to using an air pump would suggest the latter is more effective so O2 would be too.
Perhaps I just didn't shake it hard/long enough?
Which means again for me at least, O2 injection would be better, as I can control how long and how much very easily for repeatable results.


----------



## Dave70

Coldspace said:


> Definitely inline O2 in most if not all craft breweries, well the ones I've been to have.
> 
> It's a small investment , but in my humble opinion made a professional polish to my quality .
> 
> I've been pumping out at least one grainfather batch per week past 18 months of grain father ownership. Mainly do double batches in it to save time on standard brews. I usually do a double batch, double brew so I can get 4 cubes once a month. Got thirsty family.
> 
> 3 fermentation fridges, have been really paying attention to large healthy yeast starters, temps, water quality and lots of other things.
> 
> My regular staples I've had on tap here are fairly consistant. But in the quest to improvement I followed SMBo and crustys imput and invested in my O2 setup.
> 
> It's still early days, but we have on tap now 6 batches of 3 diff regular styles,
> 
> And the 02 has given them all a nice polish up, and I think how easy and cheap it was, and the beers seem just better, and I have some regular piss head beer mates over and all gave positive thumbs up.
> 
> We have tested this method in my 2 brewing mates setups who do kits and bits and they all have improved.
> 
> So in my opinion, get a set up if your serious about improving the beer quality.
> 
> Another thing I've noticed, is when cleaning out my fermenters, there is also a lot more yeast crap in the bottom, so obliviously to mme there has been a better breeding program going on inside .
> 
> I wish I did this years ago, but anyway we are all learning things as we go through the motions...
> 
> My wife recons I'm somesort of mad scientist lately ha ha,
> 
> If the delivery is on time my 4 mini kegs should get here today....
> 
> Funny thing is, it's her birthday today... But I did go get her a gold bracelet and taking day off work today to take her out to lunch.... Then the sarvo, running the grainfather lol....


I know it's kind a subjective thing, but would you say it gives your homebrew that commercial 'edge', if you know what I mean?
For example, off the top of my head, LCPA is one of my favorite off the shelf beers. As studiously as I've followed the best clone recipes and procedures I can find - start to finish - its always missing that pizzazz, for want of a better noun, of a fresh shop bought example.


----------



## Stouter

SBOB said:


> If you go looking for the other main thread regarding o2 setup, that regulator is discussed in much detail.
> 
> Some say it's not valid for an o2 setup, others disagree.
> Personally, I'm using that regulator with the o2 bottle from bunnings (I posted a full part list of my setup in the other thread)
> 
> 
> That thread is here
> http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/77928-different-wort-aeration-kits/


I like the links you provided in post#102 of that thread. Sets it out nicely.
They appear to show the same thing I'm looking at with an M10 thread, and the reg you show was a supplier (Bobthewelder) I checked when looking for the reg by itself, the price seems to have come down by a few $$'s.
The same reg I'm looking at can be upgraded to include a flow meter, but I don't think it's a huge requirement.
If only I could get my hands on a medical Oxyboot from work h34r: , the reg on those is really easy to adjust.

I reckon I'll go the same way as your set up list with the wand and all.


----------



## Coldspace

Dave70 said:


> I know it's kind a subjective thing, but would you say it gives your homebrew that commercial 'edge', if you know what I mean?
> For example, off the top of my head, LCPA is one of my favorite off the shelf beers. As studiously as I've followed the best clone recipes and procedures I can find - start to finish - its always missing that pizzazz, for want of a better noun, of a fresh shop bought example.


Well, in my limited experience I would say if you have all things correct, mash, ingredients, temp control, and healthy yeast starters then the 02 on my last 6 batches has pushed my quality up to next level.

My beers have been turning out really good last couple of years, but I know what you mean, something was just not there, 

Last few batches that missing link I feel has made the diff, to mine at least. I've been super pedantic with everything I do, and this extra little bit is like the icing on the cake.

It's made my latest IPA and 150 lashes batches , let's say, crisper, more hop prominent and also more balanced between the malts, I'm no judge or professional far from it...but my tongue and my mates tongues have noticed an improvement, let's say they finish better and faster, and even after 1 week in the keg they are better than previous batches that we're say 3 weeks in the keg. 

So unless I've done something wrong in the past, the only diff I've been doing is the 02 injection.

75-80 seconds at 2.5 ltrs minute for ales, 2 minutes at 2.5 ltrs minute for my lagers. Plus as always nice healthy starter yeast pitch.

I know what you mean, I've done a few batches of my LCPA which I love on tap at my local, mine have turned out say 80% there! but not enough! I haven't tried O2 on this receipe but will very soon.

I have a keg with my last LCPA still quater full at the back of my keezer, this beer is 2 months old now and is coming into a nice balanced version. But I recon my next version will be a lot better, after my Irish red, 150 lashes and IPAs have all turned out better, quicker...

Look, it won't turn beer into unreal beer, unless all other steps in the brewing process are followed.

It's just another piece in the puzzle, but for minimal outlay it's worth it.

You wouldn't bother if you didn't have temp control and healthy yeast practises to start with.

If you feel you got all other things down pat, and then this is the next step in adding just that little bit more professional finish.

Like all things in life, it also comes down to the skill of the person with the tools. But if been doing consistant things then yeah , I recon it's worth it, plus less froth from stirring or shaking the shit out of the wort. Plus to me personally, yeah I love beer, but I get just as much a buzz doing the brewing and learning more of this awesome hobby.

I just checked my Doppelbock , went from 1077 down 1010 in 2 weeks. Just about to cc it this weekend , tastes awesome out of the hydronmeter.

At the end of the day, yeast turns sugary liquid into beer. So get that side of things down pat and good things will happen.


----------



## Rocker1986

I got my gas bottle and regulator today from BOC as it's just down the road from work. Question, where do you get the barb/nipple thingy that screws onto the regulator outlet in order to connect the hose up to it? Does Bunnings sell them? It's a 5/8" RH male thread.


----------



## sp0rk

Rocker1986 said:


> I got my gas bottle and regulator today from BOC as it's just down the road from work. Question, where do you get the barb/nipple thingy that screws onto the regulator outlet in order to connect the hose up to it? Does Bunnings sell them? It's a 5/8" RH male thread.


http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Flow-meter-Regulator-Brass-Barb-fitting-5mm-Argon-MIG-TIG-Flowmeter-5-8-UNF-/111189339437?hash=item19e366ad2d


----------



## Rocker1986

Dammit, I actually found those guys on eBay just before too, but didn't see that particular item. I guess the search terms weren't right. Anyway, thanks for that! I'll order one now so it should get here before I pitch my next batch (and grab the oxywand before then too).


----------



## Dave70

Coldspace said:


> 75-80 seconds at 2.5 ltrs minute for ales, 2 minutes at 2.5 ltrs minute for my lagers. Plus as always nice healthy starter yeast pitch.


Do you know if theres a way to calculate this flow rate for an industrial type gauge? Say 5 kpa for 60 seconds? 
Most of the examples I can find aren't overly precise in the dosage. A nice gentle bubble on the surface for a minute seems to be the norm.


----------



## Crusty

Dave70 said:


> Do you know if theres a way to calculate this flow rate for an industrial type gauge? Say 5 kpa for 60 seconds?
> Most of the examples I can find aren't overly precise in the dosage. A nice gentle bubble on the surface for a minute seems to be the norm.


I'm not sure how critical it is or needs to be but with my setup, I just run roughly 5psi on the cigweld regulator for 90sec, Ales & Lagers.
It may be over or under oxygenated but the finished beers are really crisp & clean. You can get flow meters if you could be arsed but I don't think their necessary.
Some disposable bottle regs have a flow meter if you are looking to go down that path.


----------



## kaiserben

After getting sick & tired of dealing with tubing that kept wanting to coil up and make oxygenating wort more difficult than it should be, I recently bought myself a DIY wand from china for $2.50. It's just a stainless steel cylinder that I attach to a stone via a short piece of silicon tube, and then attach other end to the silicon tube that goes to the regulator. The only downside is that the ss cylinder has a sharp superfluous edge at one end where they've cut the cylinder from a longer cylinder (and this kinda cuts,scrapes into the inner part of the silicon tubing. I'm worried that might become a good hiding place for bacteria). 

So I'm considering ways of shaving off that sharp bit of stainless steel, or just biting the bullet and buying a $50 wand locally.


----------



## Ferg

In my possession I currently have:

https://www.bunnings.com.au/ozito-1100w-inflate-it-compressor-kit_p6290319
https://www.bunnings.com.au/ozito-1-4-mini-filter-compressor-regulator_p6210579
http://kegking.com.au/0-2-micron-air-filter.html
http://kegking.com.au/2-micron-stainless-steel-diffusion-stone-air-stone-924.html

Should I combine them and get amongst it?


----------



## Crusty

kaiserben said:


> After getting sick & tired of dealing with tubing that kept wanting to coil up and make oxygenating wort more difficult than it should be, I recently bought myself a DIY wand from china for $2.50. It's just a stainless steel cylinder that I attach to a stone via a short piece of silicon tube, and then attach other end to the silicon tube that goes to the regulator. The only downside is that the ss cylinder has a sharp superfluous edge at one end where they've cut the cylinder from a longer cylinder (and this kinda cuts,scrapes into the inner part of the silicon tubing. I'm worried that might become a good hiding place for bacteria).
> 
> So I'm considering ways of shaving off that sharp bit of stainless steel, or just biting the bullet and buying a $50 wand locally.


I got this one from Craftbrewer.


----------



## pcqypcqy

Dave70 said:


> Do you know if theres a way to calculate this flow rate for an industrial type gauge? Say 5 kpa for 60 seconds?
> Most of the examples I can find aren't overly precise in the dosage. A nice gentle bubble on the surface for a minute seems to be the norm.


I'll try and put something together in a spreadsheet. It's similar to the beer line length calculator, just needs some rearrangement.

Edit 2: OK, now looking at it in more details it turns out it's much more complicated than that because it can compress, so it's not a simple fluid mechanics question. I didn't seem to find any online calculators for it, but something must exist somewhere.

This is one of those ones where you get Lyrebird Cycles to answer.

Edit 3: I did find the attached calculator that seems to do what we're after. The output unit is lbm/s, which is pound(water mass) per second. The web tells me to convert this to litres per minute you multiply by 27.22.

So assuming a 6mm ID line (approx 1/4 inch), a gauge pressure of 65psi (450kPa, 4.5 bar) is required to deliver 2 litres per minute. Does that seem right to people who have done this before?

As many others have pointed out, welding regs often come with a flow rate dial rather than a pressure gauge, so maybe it's a matter of selecting one of those. 

View attachment Flow Calculator.xls


----------



## Tony121

Rocker1986 said:


> I got my gas bottle and regulator today from BOC as it's just down the road from work. Question, where do you get the barb/nipple thingy that screws onto the regulator outlet in order to connect the hose up to it? Does Bunnings sell them? It's a 5/8" RH male thread.


Pirtek or Enzed have them if need be


----------



## mstrelan

Ferg said:


> In my possession I currently have:
> 
> https://www.bunnings.com.au/ozito-1100w-inflate-it-compressor-kit_p6290319
> https://www.bunnings.com.au/ozito-1-4-mini-filter-compressor-regulator_p6210579
> http://kegking.com.au/0-2-micron-air-filter.html
> http://kegking.com.au/2-micron-stainless-steel-diffusion-stone-air-stone-924.html
> 
> Should I combine them and get amongst it?


No. Get O2 and a regulator.


----------



## Stouter

Eureka!
Found an old reg in the shed from one of the little trademate welding kits,
Much the same as this, -






for using with the $30 odd disposable bottles at Super Cheap Auto. Hard to control, but it just needs to hit that sweet spot with the flow. I'm not worried about how many L/Min for any certain style. This is just to get the ball rolling, then look at upgrading later.

My other option is my old plumbing kit's Oxy reg coupled up with a 'D' size cylinder. A couple of places in town are now doing the 'no rent' option. Prices seem to be about $355 for the initial cost, then about $80 for a refill/swap over. F&$kn regional prices.
Seems a few suppliers here are going with this no rent option now, the worker at Bunnings told me they are even getting into it soon. A couple of thier Perth stores are currently doing it with swaps on 'D' size for $69 each!


----------



## Coodgee

is it easy/possible to over-oxygenate? are there dire consequences?


----------



## kaiserben

Coodgee said:


> is it easy/possible to over-oxygenate? are there dire consequences?


There's conflicting info out there (of course, as with everything homebrew-related) 

But here's a quote from the Wyeast website (source): 

"Over-oxygenation is generally not a concern as the yeast will use all available oxygen within 3 to 9 hours of pitching and oxygen will come out of solution during that time as well."


----------



## Dave70

pcqypcqy said:


> So assuming a 6mm ID line (approx 1/4 inch), a gauge pressure of 65psi (450kPa, 4.5 bar) is required to deliver 2 litres per minute. Does that seem right to people who have done this before?


I dunno, 450 kpa seems mighty high to me. Based on the fact I once forgot my beer was still at carbing pressure (300 kpa) before serving..
And also its the maximum pressure the L/T tyres on the Hilux will take. Just seems like heaps. But I could be wrong.


----------



## pcqypcqy

Dave70 said:


> I dunno, 450 kpa seems mighty high to me. Based on the fact I once forgot my beer was still at carbing pressure (300 kpa) before serving..
> And also its the maximum pressure the L/T tyres on the Hilux will take. Just seems like heaps. But I could be wrong.


I thought it was high too. It's entirely possible that the conversion is wrong and I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. 

Where's Lyrebird when you need him.


----------



## moonhead

big78sam said:


> OP inspired me. Went to masters and bought a benzomatic o2 cylinder for 22 bucks down from 36. I would have bought 2 but they only had 1 left.
> 
> Craftbrewer sell regulators designed for these cylinders so i rang them and asked about industrial versus food grade. They said its no issue using them so thats good enough for me.



Not wanting to start up the shitfight about grades of Oxygen again, but...

I was looking to pick up the Tradeflame version of this from Bunnings (https://www.bunnings.com.au/tradeflame-930ml-oxygen-gas-cartridge_p5910241), but need some kind of reg to go with it. The only one I could find with the same thread was this one (https://www.bunnings.com.au/tradeflame-regulator-conversion-kit_p5910287). They look pretty nice to me, plenty of O2, would last me ages, and a nice small reg, with a barb fitting no less, to suit. Only question I had was if it would be suitable.

I shot an email off to Tradeflame about it, they came back and asked for detail on what my usage was going to be. Stupidly I told them the truth, to which they abruptly replied "this gas is for industrial use only, not food use", and pretty much ceased all communications thereafter...

Now, I don't really care that much about the industrial/food grade bullshit, some of the gear I'm using certainly isn't anywhere near "food grade", but my question is still unanswered. Does anyone know if this reg will work well and safely, with this O2 cylinder?


----------



## Liam_snorkel

it looks the same as the Ebay one purchased by Crusty & SBOB - just without the L/min gauge (here: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/77928-different-wort-aeration-kits/?p=1394718 )


----------



## Phoney

Question:

I have a spare 6kg C02 bottle. If I took that down to BOC, would they likely refuse to fill it with 02 if I asked them?


----------



## Tony121

Phoney said:


> Question:
> 
> I have a spare 6kg C02 bottle. If I took that down to BOC, would they likely refuse to fill it with 02 if I asked them?


Yes


----------



## Adr_0

Phoney said:


> Question:
> 
> I have a spare 6kg C02 bottle. If I took that down to BOC, would they likely refuse to fill it with 02 if I asked them?


Why don't you ask them to fill it with hydrogen?


----------



## SBOB

Phoney said:


> Question:
> 
> I have a spare 6kg C02 bottle. If I took that down to BOC, would they likely refuse to fill it with 02 if I asked them?


They will happily fill it with O2, but you'll get the carbon thrown in for free


----------



## manticle

Phoney said:


> Question:
> 
> I have a spare 6kg C02 bottle. If I took that down to BOC, would they likely refuse to fill it with 02 if I asked them?


Real question?


----------



## mofox1

manticle said:


> Real question?


Nope. Phoney question... Ba-da tish!

Here all week folks.


----------



## Zorco

manticle said:


> Real question?


Look on the face of it the question makes sense. The vessel is as sturdy, whatever gas was in there could be purged. There probably isn't a combustion risk reason. Circulation of cylinders would make business sense.


Good question from an inquisitive mind. **** yes. ******* awesome. Boo ******* yes. **** the **** yes.


So why would they refuse? Regulatory practices? Process control? Safety practices?

Simplicity. Most people are ******* stupid... am I right???? Isn't that why regulation is in place, because we are not all IQ 500000 to handle the relative complexity of the world we have created in the past few years compared to the evolutionary capabilities of our brains....

That's the basis of '******* stupid' that I mean. It is impossible to know all of pharmacology, physics, neurology, law, process control, history.

Humans are crazy finite.

It is a great question from an open and inquisitive mind

Any question should be treated as a real question because no one is smart enough to perceive the world the way all others can.

Unless trolls.... **** them


----------



## Coldspace

kaiserben said:


> After getting sick & tired of dealing with tubing that kept wanting to coil up and make oxygenating wort more difficult than it should be, I recently bought myself a DIY wand from china for $2.50. It's just a stainless steel cylinder that I attach to a stone via a short piece of silicon tube, and then attach other end to the silicon tube that goes to the regulator. The only downside is that the ss cylinder has a sharp superfluous edge at one end where they've cut the cylinder from a longer cylinder (and this kinda cuts,scrapes into the inner part of the silicon tubing. I'm worried that might become a good hiding place for bacteria).
> So I'm considering ways of shaving off that sharp bit of stainless steel, or just biting the bullet and buying a $50 wand locally.


I just use my stainless long mash in paddle, I use a small zippy tie, tie the stone to the end, spray with starsan, then when I put the oxygen stone to the bottom of fermenter I also just gently stir it with the paddle to help disperse the gas.

Works well, lift out cut zippy tie, off we go....

Not sure if I'm over or under doing it, but slightly over would be no detriment I would think but other more scientific people may have a better view than my back yard experiments....

I did read somewhere, can't remember , that the higher the part per million , the lot longer you need to gas, it's a diminishing return. So other than wasting some gas, I think you would have to be really going nuts to over do it..


----------



## Adr_0

Just on H2O2, I'm getting a bit more comfortable using it and will do a with/without split batch with dry yeast.

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://folk.ntnu.no/audunfor/5.%2520semester/Felles%2520lab/Report%2520-%2520yeast%2520fermentation%2520-%2520B19.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiRqqDypYzQAhXCEpQKHVHtABEQFgg5MAM&usg=AFQjCNEitaYCnf-8yfs-3GfZ8jY6SE_pFA&sig2=RRRzHXlaVeGzJWQIC495sQ

Assuming 8-20g of H2O2 (6% or 3%) to get 10ppm in 23L this takes 20-25min to fully decompose at 11g/23L, vs just under 20 min for 22g (two packs) and 6-7min at 50-55g/23L.

I think the food grade bit is important but seems like the free radicals only come up with certain metal catalysts.

It seems like a couple of things point to adding yeast to the wort, THEN adding H2O2 - not only is the yeast critical to catalyse the decomposition, but as mentioned previously, having highish DO hanging around without yeast can possibly stale the wort somewhat. So if yeast is there already then it in hopefully going to yeast growth instead of just oxidising wort.


----------



## manticle

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> Look on the face of it the question make sense. The vessel is as sturdy, whatever gas was in there could be purged. There probably isn't a combustion risk reason. Circulation of cylinders would make business sense.
> Good question from an inquisitive mind. **** yes. ******* awesome. Boo ******* yes. **** the **** yes.
> So why would they refuse? Regulatory practices? Process control? Safety practices?
> Simplicity. Most people are ******* stupid... am I right???? Isn't that why regulation is in place, because we are not all IQ 500000 to handle the relative complexity of the world we have created in the past few years compared to the evolutionary capabilities of our brains....
> That's the basis of '******* stupid' that I mean. It is impossible to know all of pharmacology, physics, neurology, law, process control, history.
> Humans are crazy finite.
> It is a great question from an open and inquisitive mind
> Any question should be treated as a real question because no one is smart enough to perceive the world the way all others can.
> Unless trolls.... **** them


Multiple question marks are the devil's work.

Question was not 'can Oxygen be used to fill a CO2 tank?' but 'will BOC fill my CO2 tank with O2?'

I highly doubt it.

My local BoC staff are the dumbest spanners ever put in a box by the way. Pretty sure they won't be filling cylinders knowingly with the wrong gas, even if they can't say why.


----------



## technobabble66

Yep. I reckon the sequence needs to be: 
1) add yeast to wort
2) add H2O2 to wort

That way the catalase from the yeast splits the peroxide quickly and protects/minimizes it from reacting with the wort molecules to cause staling. 
It also seems the yeast can do this to protect the rest of itself from the peroxide. And the O2 should then be sitting there ready to be used by the yeast. 

I'm pretty confident of the theory. The only problem is the next batch I'm doing is for the Vic Case Swap, so I'd rather not discover the theory (& my confidence) is wrong. 

Just checking to quantity of 3% or 6% to add, how have you done that estimate of 8-20g, Adr_0?


----------



## technobabble66

Double post

While I'm here, great first day at the WACA!!


----------



## Zorco

manticle said:


> Multiple question marks are the devil's work.



Hey, neat! You invented something. Give urban dictionary a try.


----------



## Adr_0

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> Hey, neat! You invented something. Give urban dictionary a try.


Regarding the filling with O2, it comes down to product labelling. It's a little dangerous because grey/green CO2 cylinders, if filled with O2, could then be lined up to an application not compatible with O2. Similarly, thread sealants and lubricants in CO2 valves would not be compatible with O2. Returning a grey/green beer gas cylinder that's gotten O2 in it could be an extremely dangerous thing.

Similarly, if you had a black/white medical O2 cylinder and filled it with CO2... 

There is no way in hell they'd put a different gas in a cylinder labelled for and intended for CO2 - and would lose their job if they did.


----------



## Adr_0

technobabble66 said:


> Yep. I reckon the sequence needs to be:
> 1) add yeast to wort
> 2) add H2O2 to wort
> That way the catalase from the yeast splits the peroxide quickly and protects/minimizes it from reacting with the wort molecules to cause staling.
> It also seems the yeast can do this to protect the rest of itself from the peroxide. And the O2 should then be sitting there ready to be used by the yeast.
> I'm pretty confident of the theory. The only problem is the next batch I'm doing is for the Vic Case Swap, so I'd rather not discover the theory (& my confidence) is wrong.
> Just checking to quantity of 3% or 6% to add, how have you done that estimate of 8-20g, Adr_0?


I went 10mg/L x 23L = 0.23g.
O2 is 32g/mol, so that means 0.007mol of O2 for 10ppm in 23L.
0.007mol, by the 2H202 > 2H2O + O2, means 2 x 0.007mol of H2O2, ie 0.014mol, and at 34g/mol, is 0.48g of H202. 
3wt% >> 16g
6wt% >> 8g

I'm pretty sure the solutions you get are vol%, but it would be pretty close.


----------



## Coodgee

Tin of spray paint and a stencil.


----------



## Jack of all biers

Adr_0 said:


> Just on H2O2, I'm getting a bit more comfortable using it and will do a with/without split batch with dry yeast.
> 
> https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://folk.ntnu.no/audunfor/5.%2520semester/Felles%2520lab/Report%2520-%2520yeast%2520fermentation%2520-%2520B19.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiRqqDypYzQAhXCEpQKHVHtABEQFgg5MAM&usg=AFQjCNEitaYCnf-8yfs-3GfZ8jY6SE_pFA&sig2=RRRzHXlaVeGzJWQIC495sQ
> 
> Assuming 8-20g of H2O2 (6% or 3%) to get 10ppm in 23L this takes 20-25min to fully decompose at 11g/23L, vs just under 20 min for 22g (two packs) and 6-7min at 50-55g/23L.
> 
> I think the food grade bit is important but seems like the free radicals only come up with certain metal catalysts.
> 
> It seems like a couple of things point to adding yeast to the wort, THEN adding H2O2 - not only is the yeast critical to catalyse the decomposition, but as mentioned previously, having highish DO hanging around without yeast can possibly stale the wort somewhat. So if yeast is there already then it in hopefully going to yeast growth instead of just oxidising wort.


Thanks for finding that paper. Very interesting. I note that they made the assumption that the water absorbed very little of the oxygen and that they obviously produced oxygen gas that displaced the volume in the flask. This raised the question of how much oxygen gets absorbed in a wort/brewing situation. Do your calculations take into account oxygen loss by this method or would some tweaking based on the experiment's outcomes be in order.

EDIT - I read the question and answers section of the paper and see that they covered the absorption of oxygen into the water under Q-reaction delay pg 18. For those not bothered to read it, it says that the water will absorb the first oxygen gas formed and in a prior question they refer to the amount of oxygen absorbed being constant (I take from that, that they got the water to maximum absorption rate for the temp it was at). Serves me right for not fully reading before posting questions h34r: Oh well :drinks:




Adr_0 said:


> I think the food grade bit is important but seems like the free radicals only come up with certain metal catalysts.



Have you found something regarding the stabilizers I linked earlier. I'd be keen to know if some or any are detrimental to health or brews?



Adr_0 said:


> I went 10mg/L x 23L = 0.23g.
> O2 is 32g/mol, so that means 0.007mol of O2 for 10ppm in 23L.
> 0.007mol, by the 2H202 > 2H2O + O2, means 2 x 0.007mol of H2O2, ie 0.014mol, and at 34g/mol, is 0.48g of H202.
> 3wt% >> 16g
> 6wt% >> 8g
> 
> I'm pretty sure the solutions you get are vol%, but it would be pretty close.


Looking at the paper you linked it appears it is wt% not vol%. Also the common brands are labelled 3% w/w


----------



## Adr_0

Regarding the stabilisers:
-Colloidal stannate and sodium pyrophosphate (present at 25 - 250 mg/L) are traditional mainstays.

-Organophosphonates (e.g., Monsanto's Dequest products) are increasingly common.

-Nitrate (for pH adjustment and corrosion inhibition) and phosphoric acid (for pH adjustment) also are used.

-Colloidal silicate is used to sequester metals and thereby minimize H2O2 decomposition in certain applications that depend on the bleaching ability of H2O2 in alkali... and... 

-Acetanilide

The last one is apparently pretty nasty,causing liver problems if enough is ingested. 

Sodium pyrophosphate seems to be ok. 

Stannates - being likely potassium, sodium stannate - are slightly irritating. 

Nitrates, similar to stannates, in sodium/potassium/etc, slight irritants and probably not good in high doses. 

Not sure on the Organophosphonates... And the acetalinide. 

So yeah, I would be leaning towards the food grade if possible.


----------



## peteru

The product I've been using is Gold Cross Hydrogen Peroxide 20 volume 6% w/v 400ml manufactured by Probiotec Limited, which is a pharmaceuticals company based in Melbourne. I have used their online facility to submit some questions earlier this week, but have had no response. If I have time, I'll phone them tomorrow to find out more about that product and possible alternatives.

I have also done a few mini experiments to see what happens with various ingredients being added to the H2O2. Some interesting observations:

* Adding yeast nutrient directly to 6% H2O2 did not appear to have any observable effect.
* Adding a very small amount of dried yeast to the above solution resulted in immediate and clear production of O2 bubbles.
* Adding cooled wort to the above solution did not have an obvious effect, aside from diluting the mixture.

For the next phase, I placed the above concoction onto a stir plate set to 200 RPM left it alone overnight. I turned off the stir plate earlier today and from what I can see, it looks like there has been some yeast growth.

I'll need to perform a better experiment, but it looks like the best method may be to add food grade H2O2 directly to the starter just before pitching, being very careful not to create a gushing "mentos and cola" fountain in the process.


----------



## Dave70

Adr_0 said:


> The last one is apparently pretty nasty,causing liver problems if enough is ingested.


Ha ha. Oh dear me, you wouldn't to consume _any_ substance like that..


----------



## technobabble66

peteru said:


> .
> 
> I'll need to perform a better experiment, but it looks like the best method may be to add food grade H2O2 directly to the starter just before pitching, being very careful not to create a gushing "mentos and cola" fountain in the process.


Why do it like that, where you're risking the peroxide reacting to the wort before you pitch your yeast in?
Why not pitch your yeast into your conventional wort, then add the peroxide lastly to that? That way the catalase should minimize any oxidization reactions between the peroxide and the wort components.


----------



## Radshoes

so then

are you guys saying I can get food grade hydrogen peroxide and put a small amount in my wort after adding yeast and that will give me sufficient oxygenation for healthy yeast growth and fermentation?

because I feel like that is what is being said but I am still struggling with the idea of putting hydrogen peroxide in my beer and this being a good thing.


----------



## Ferg

Ferg said:


> In my possession I currently have:
> 
> https://www.bunnings.com.au/ozito-1100w-inflate-it-compressor-kit_p6290319
> https://www.bunnings.com.au/ozito-1-4-mini-filter-compressor-regulator_p6210579
> http://kegking.com.au/0-2-micron-air-filter.html
> http://kegking.com.au/2-micron-stainless-steel-diffusion-stone-air-stone-924.html
> 
> Should I combine them and get amongst it?





mstrelan said:


> No. Get O2 and a regulator.


Assuming I don't have the budget for 02 and a regulator do you think this set-up would be beneficial compared to doing nothing?
I would have thought this would be the middle ground between an 02 set-up and shaking the fermenter. Probably slightly better than the run of the mill aquarium pump and sufficient to get my 8-10ppm in say 2-3 mins?


----------



## technobabble66

Radshoes said:


> so then
> 
> are you guys saying I can get food grade hydrogen peroxide and put a small amount in my wort after adding yeast and that will give me sufficient oxygenation for healthy yeast growth and fermentation?
> 
> because I feel like that is what is being said but I am still struggling with the idea of putting hydrogen peroxide in my beer and this being a good thing.


Yep that's what we're saying. 
But we're not quite 100% sure about it yet either. 

Theory looks ~ correct. 
It's at the testing stage now. So we need some of us to " 'ave a crack ya mug" and see what happens - whether it does the oxygenation we're after and whether it produces any negative - off flavours/aromas, impairs long term health of yeast, etc.


----------



## Radshoes

Cheers, I am going to go see what my local masters has in terms of cheap o2 today
just because I am worried if I try to oxygenate my stout with hydrogen peroxide I might get a blonde ale.


----------



## Zorco

hahaha


----------



## pcqypcqy

Ferg said:


> Assuming I don't have the budget for 02 and a regulator do you think this set-up would be beneficial compared to doing nothing?
> I would have thought this would be the middle ground between an 02 set-up and shaking the fermenter. Probably slightly better than the run of the mill aquarium pump and sufficient to get my 8-10ppm in say 2-3 mins?


You can always try it. I'd be worried about flavours/contamination coming from an air compressor, not sure whether your filters would intercept all of that or not. But do it on a cheap test beer and see what happens.

Another cheap alternative to shaking is to get yourself a paint stirrer and chuck it on a drill.


----------



## Rocker1986

Radshoes said:


> Cheers, I am going to go see what my local masters has in terms of cheap o2 today
> just because I am worried if I try to oxygenate my stout with hydrogen peroxide I might get a blonde ale.


 :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## altone

Ferg said:


> Assuming I don't have the budget for 02 and a regulator do you think this set-up would be beneficial compared to doing nothing?
> I would have thought this would be the middle ground between an 02 set-up and shaking the fermenter. Probably slightly better than the run of the mill aquarium pump and sufficient to get my 8-10ppm in say 2-3 mins?


Well, this is what I've been doing for the past 12 months except I use an aquarium pump - the rest is just about identical.

I believe it's beneficial and unlike shaking, you have good control over the quantity/time you are pushing air into it.

edit: One thing to remember is if those filters get damp/wet - they just don't work - chuck it and buy a new one.


----------



## Dan Pratt

maybe a coincidence but my O2 ran out this week....so I went to the Blue Bunnings aka Masters and they are finally selling the stock at a good price, 40 - 70% off. 

picked up 2 for the price of one @ 40% discount. :super:

Shelf price $36 each - paid $43 for 2


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Very interesting. I don't suppose you saw if they have regulators too?


----------



## mstrelan

Bernzomatic @ Masters: 80.2g for $43 = $0.54/g
Oxyturbo @ Brewman: 136g for $55 = $0.40/g


----------



## technobabble66

Zorco said:


> http://www.anpros.com.au/shipping/
> 
> 
> http://www.anpros.com.au/food-grade-products/hydrogen-peroxide-30-food-grade/
> 
> Will try tomorrow.
> 
> This AHB place is amazing.





peteru said:


> Both the food grade and pharmaceutical grade hydrogen peroxide at 3% and 6% concentrations are not classified as dangerous goods and good to ship using normal post. It's the products in concentrations above 10% that require special handling. So, there's always the option of sticking with the 6% concentration, just getting a purer product than what the chemist sells. Keeping a 1l bottle refrigerated should not be too hard.
> 
> No product data sheets at ANPROS for the two types, but I suspect that the pharmaceutical product would be as suitable as it can get.



Just spoke to Graham Morris, one of the industrial chemists at ANPROS (& an ex-brewer!).
He explained that the Food Grade H2O2 and Pharmaceutical Grade H2O2 they sell are both food grade, the Pharma Grade one is a bit more pure. Both use tiny quantities food grade stabilisers. 
He also explained that while it's at ~35%, the H2O2 is much more stable and has a much longer lifespan, whereas the 3% or 6% decomposes much quicker even at refrigerator temps. At fridge temps, he was suggesting the 35% might last ~4 years, whereas the 3-6% would decompose within 9-12 months.

Obviously the 35% could take a decade to get through a 500mL bottle, however the cost of the various types are not that different, so i'd be inclined to simply cough up the cash for the 35% and not be too worried about the decomposition, at least for the first few years. 


FWIW, he mentioned you could buy a 5L container and split it (maybe on site?) and they can supply the 500mL bottles (including a vapour releasing cap) - works out ~half the price at ~$20.


----------



## altone

Pratty1 said:


> maybe a coincidence but my O2 ran out this week....so I went to the Blue Bunnings aka Masters and they are finally selling the stock at a good price, 40 - 70% off.
> 
> picked up 2 for the price of one @ 40% discount. :super:
> 
> Shelf price $36 each - paid $43 for 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WP_20161104_11_00_30_Pro.jpg


Dammit my local one had nothing - tomorrow I'm heading south to check a few other branches out (going to Dandenong and Frankston anyway)


----------



## Radshoes

yeah there was none at masters everton park


----------



## buckerooni

ended up getting the brewman kit, seems like a pretty easy and economic way to start mainlining 02 into that damn wort.


----------



## Killer Brew

Ferg said:


> Assuming I don't have the budget for 02 and a regulator do you think this set-up would be beneficial compared to doing nothing?
> I would have thought this would be the middle ground between an 02 set-up and shaking the fermenter. Probably slightly better than the run of the mill aquarium pump and sufficient to get my 8-10ppm in say 2-3 mins?


I had been using the shaken fermenter method but having fermentation issues. Will be getting set up for O2 however as a stop gap in the meantime I tried putting my mash paddle into my drill and letting loose with that for 5 mins. Can't believe the difference even that has made. Belgian golden ale OG went from 1.062 to 1.009 in 3 days and has finished at 1.006 which is the lowest I have ever achieved apart from with a saison yeast. I'm excited!


----------



## manticle

Brewman setup is where I'll be looking in a few weeks.


----------



## Aus_Rider_22

manticle said:


> Brewman setup is where I'll be looking in a few weeks.


Thinking the same. Had money set aside for other brew related shit but if this makes a measurable (taste) difference, I am going for it. 
Still wonder how many have, or have not aerated properly and still had "great" beers? ("great" beer is all of them that weren't aerated, tasted amazing, have won competitions etc etc!) Could this be the next "oh wow" moment since temp control? :lol: :unsure: haha!


----------



## SBOB

Aus_Rider_22 said:


> Thinking the same. Had money set aside for other brew related shit but if this makes a measurable (taste) difference, I am going for it.


Fermentation is a logical place to look for improvements or spend $ on that's that can improve it... Making wort is relatively easy, and we are all guilty of spending $ on gadgets and being on the wort making side, but the majority of what makes good beer comes from the fermentation process side.


----------



## Crusty

Aus_Rider_22 said:


> Thinking the same. Had money set aside for other brew related shit but if this makes a measurable (taste) difference, I am going for it.
> Still wonder how many have, or have not aerated properly and still had "great" beers? ("great" beer is all of them that weren't aerated, tasted amazing, have won competitions etc etc!) Could this be the next "oh wow" moment since temp control? :lol: :unsure: haha!


I just won first place for a rice Lager at the North Coast National show which wasn't aerated. I made it again & aerated with O2 before pitching & there is a marked difference. It's just cleaner & crisper & just a better beer.


----------



## Zorco

Nice work on your win Crusty!


----------



## Killer Brew

http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/Product/Hot-Devil-Oxygen-Cylinder/411136

Standard reg fitting? (I have a dual dial oxy reg)


----------



## Midnight Brew

Aus_Rider_22 said:


> Thinking the same. Had money set aside for other brew related shit but if this makes a measurable (taste) difference, I am going for it.
> Still wonder how many have, or have not aerated properly and still had "great" beers? ("great" beer is all of them that weren't aerated, tasted amazing, have won competitions etc etc!) Could this be the next "oh wow" moment since temp control? :lol: :unsure: haha!


It certainly is the next best thing for yeast after temperature control. The proof is in the beer.


----------



## Coldspace

Good work on your win crusty...

I took my 4 mini kegs for first time to a BBQ , all were filled with ales that were 02, and the guys all said the beer just tasted better.

Good enough for me. Now I'm using a heavy kegmenter in bottom of my chesty, it's far easier for me to drop the stone in, bubble away for couple minutes, and remove and pitch.

Yes, I've made excellent beers with the paint stirrer method , but my last 6 O2 batches just seem a little better.

I've really been paying attention to my fermentation processes last couple of years, temps, aeration , pitch sizes, nutrients , lagering techniques, all the way to learning diff yeast strains. Might as well add oxygen.
It's all in the quest to make better beers, I seem to be heading in the right direction 

Doing a fermentation /lagering experiment today on my finished octoberfest and Doppelbock , they have been through the D rest, I was going to rack these into a stainless fermenters with say a very small amount of dissolved dME like 200 grms with some finnings, rack in at 16 degrees, seal after purging head space with co2, leave for 3 days then slowly drop temp 2 a day back to 0 for lagering.

Anyone done something similar.? Or just **** it, go straight to cc .


----------



## MHB

The old "_We make wort. Yeast makes beer_" still stands.
No matter how good a job we do of making wort, everything we can do to encourage a healthy happy hardworking yeast population will make the most of that wort.
Mark


----------



## Adr_0

Midnight Brew said:


> It certainly is the next best thing for yeast after temperature control. The proof is in the beer.


Isn't the proof meant to be in the pudding? 

I have a question mark on some yeast calculators, and the volumes we think we're getting. I have personally gone for convenience sometimes - a particular starter volume; or preparing a starter late - and the beer has suffered. Or, those where I've been able to make a massive, healthy starter have been markedly better. 

All this talk about fermentation temperature, yeast volume and oxygenation during growth... It's almost leaning towards yeast being critical to the quality of the beer.

Almost...


----------



## Dan Pratt

Liam_snorkel said:


> Very interesting. I don't suppose you saw if they have regulators too?


sorry for the tardy response. I didn't even look for them as I already have the Brass reg.





....and looking at the oxyturbo from brewman, i could of got a better value.

Does the oxyturbo fit the brass reg?


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

pcqypcqy said:


> You can always try it. I'd be worried about flavours/contamination coming from an air compressor, not sure whether your filters would intercept all of that or not.


From experience I'd be very worried about oil carryover with a standard system.

To protect the pneumatic cylinders in my frame fatigue tester I have two inline cleaners on the feed to the pneumatic circuit, in addition to the cleaner on the compressor itself. The cylinders exhaust to atmosphere on the off stroke and it takes about two minutes for the area to smell strongly of compressor oil.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

pcqypcqy said:


> Attached Files
> 
> 
> 
> *Flow Calculator.xls* *174KB* 6 downloads





Dave70 said:


> I dunno, 450 kpa seems mighty high to me. Based on the fact I once forgot my beer was still at carbing pressure (300 kpa) before serving..
> And also its the maximum pressure the L/T tyres on the Hilux will take. Just seems like heaps. But I could be wrong.





pcqypcqy said:


> I thought it was high too. It's entirely possible that the conversion is wrong and I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.
> 
> Where's Lyrebird when you need him.


The calculations are way off, I think that flow rate calculator is for water not gas*.

Even if you use a gas flow calculator the results wouldn't be useful: the rate limiting component on your oxygenation rig is usually the sinter, not the line. I have a sinter flowrate calculator somewhere but I only ever use it to calculate the size of sinter needed to do a particular job, there's too much variability to use it for process control.

In industial practice we use an on cylinder flow gauge, for accuracy you must convert the pressure unless you use one of the special pressure compensating gauges.

For home I use an upturned jug in a bucket to calculate the output of the sinter at a known O2 pressure and go with that.

These days I don't even do that, I just give it a shot at roughly the right pressure and time; I only use O2 as a backup for the oleic acid addition (I think O2 still helps with ergosterol synthesis and since I'm paying rent on the cylinder already I might as well use it).


----------



## manticle

Adr_0 said:


> Isn't the proof meant to be in the pudding?
> ..


Do you want BribieG to scalp you?

The proof is in the eating (of said pudding).


----------



## 2much2spend

This is the best conversation I've read on this forum. 
Has anyone used this. http://www.love2brew.com/Blichmann-In-Line-Oxygenation-Kit-p/blc055.htm. 

I know it's all in the name but for about $100+s&h it seems not to bad.


----------



## manticle

Looks very similar to the brewman setup although the stainless wand is an extra accessory.

Add postage and the cylinder and you'd be looking similar or a tad more.

Blichmann make good stuff though so I'd suggest it's probably a very reasonable purchase.


----------



## RobW

Adr_0 said:


> Isn't the proof meant to be in the pudding?


 Actually the proof of the pudding is in the eating, so I guess the proof of the fermentation is in the drinking

ed: apologies Manticle, just saw your post.
I need that first coffee!


----------



## nic0

I just had a crack with an aquarium pump and a carb stone. It worked well in a glass of water but then i put the carb stone in some sterilisation solution with out any air running through it and it filled with water so i just stuck the end of the hose in my mash paddle and let it go for 20min. Next time i will keep the air running through the stone.


----------



## Zorco

nic0 said:


> I just had a crack with an aquarium pump and a carb stone. It worked well in a glass of water but then i put the carb stone in some sterilisation solution with out any air running through it and it filled with water so i just stuck the end of the hose in my mash paddle and let it go for 20min. Next time i will keep the air running through the stone.


I do that too for the same reason.


----------



## Ferg

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> From experience I'd be very worried about oil carryover with a standard system.
> 
> To protect the pneumatic cylinders in my frame fatigue tester I have two inline cleaners on the feed to the pneumatic circuit, in addition to the cleaner on the compressor itself. The cylinders exhaust to atmosphere on the off stroke and it takes about two minutes for the area to smell strongly of compressor oil.


Thanks for that, yeah my thinking is that because the compressor is 'oil free' my two in-line filters would only be required to clean up any air borne contaminants as opposed to anything the compressor might add into the mix. Anyway, enough theory, I guess there is only one way to really know!


----------



## Adr_0

Ferg said:


> Thanks for that, yeah my thinking is that because the compressor is 'oil free' my two in-line filters would only be required to clean up any air borne contaminants as opposed to anything the compressor might add into the mix. Anyway, enough theory, I guess there is only one way to really know!


Don't do it. Just don't.


----------



## Liam_snorkel

I got impatient and set myself up with O2 this weekend. The bunnings reg is the same as the ebay ones posted earlier, just without a gauge.. it was a little bit fiddly but ended up basing the flow rate on just less than bubbles breaking the surface of the wort.

tradeflame 930ml oxygen
https://www.bunnings.com.au/tradeflame-930ml-oxygen-gas-cartridge_p5910241
tradeflame reg
https://www.bunnings.com.au/tradeflame-regulator-conversion-kit_p5910287
2 micron air stone kit
https://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=5938


----------



## peteru

Run the compressor into a bottle of water for an hour or so. Then seal the bottle and let it sit for an hour or so. Open bottle and do a sensory test on the water and the air in the bottle headspace. If you can't detect any issues, you should be good to go.


----------



## Phoney

So with the Brewman kit, does anyone know if its possible to use Bunnings tradeflame or the Supercheapauto oxygen bottles with the BM regulator? 

$55 for a replacement 136g bottle seems a bit uneconomical.


----------



## Adr_0

peteru said:


> Run the compressor into a bottle of water for an hour or so. Then seal the bottle and let it sit for an hour or so. Open bottle and do a sensory test on the water and the air in the bottle headspace. If you can't detect any issues, you should be good to go.


Visual too - eg if there's a layer of oil on the water, or if swirling it pulls up a little oil tornado...


----------



## peteru

Phoney said:


> $55 for a replacement 136g bottle seems a bit uneconomical.


Aren't the Supercheap Auto O2 cylinders something like $33 for 40g? That's even worse economy.


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Phoney said:


> does anyone know if its possible to use Bunnings tradeflame or the Supercheapauto oxygen bottles with the BM regulator?
> 
> $55 for a replacement 136g bottle seems a bit uneconomical.


it's the same size bottle as the bunnings tradeflame one. 136g / 930ml, and about the same price. You'd just have to confirm that the bm regulator fits M10M fitting.
If the regulator is M12, bunnings have a M10 to M12 fitting. https://www.bunnings.com.au/tradeflame-brass-m10-to-m12-gas-adaptor-fitting_p5910344


----------



## 2much2spend

So what's the process of getting medical o2 or clean o2. It's not like you gas people with it. I know it can combust with oil and it support's combustion but that is the only negative I an see with it.


----------



## SBOB

Phoney said:


> So with the Brewman kit, does anyone know if its possible to use Bunnings tradeflame or the Supercheapauto oxygen bottles with the BM regulator?
> 
> $55 for a replacement 136g bottle seems a bit uneconomical.


the one from bunnings is an m10 thread. Brewman's one is an M12 from memory, so they are different

Though, the price/value comparison is pretty much the same.
Bunnings is like $50/136g bottle, Brewmans is $55/136g bottle (and you get to support a much nicer guy than bunnings)

The smaller bottles at supercheap etc are worse $/g comparisons


----------



## Goose

alcoadam said:


> As far as "medical grade" o2 goes, it is filled with the same stuff that fills the industrial one.
> 
> When an industrial bottle is returned it will simply be refilled, regardless of what is left in the bottle.
> "Med grade" bottles will be emptied first, purged, then filled in a vacuum environment.
> 
> Just depends how fussy you are I suppose...



If you fill up at BOC then it is the same stuff and I do not doubt the BA on this point. The regulations and classifications that distinguish medical grade from others are in fact detailed (albeit vaguely) on the BOC website. 

For a bit of a laff I did find a similar discussion and another person that claims to be an (ex) professional from the gas industry:



> At most suppliers, they will be filling your tank...or theirs...from a LOX supply, and all the oxygen will be the same...whether it is graded Research, Medical, Welding or Aviation. Aviation grade has the lowest specified dewpoint, along with Research. Medical grade is in fact technically the LOWEST grade of oxygen. As long as you conform to that, you are golden.
> If your oxygen is coming from a LOX supply, and your tank is clean, then it will be Research or Aviation grade.
> 
> Here:
> 
> Medical grade: 93% pure or better, dewpoint 100 F, CO2 <0.01 ppm, CO <0.1 ppm, THC (total hydrocarbon) <0.01 ppm(as per FDA and USP)
> Welding grade: 99.5% pure or better, dewpoint 0 F, inert gases <0.5%, THC not allowable
> Aviation grade: 99.5% pure or better, dewpoint -80 F, inert gases <0.5%, THC not allowable
> Research grade: 100% pure, dewpoint -80 F, no inert gas, THC not allowable
> 
> FYI, I'm a certified oxygen and high-pressure gas systems designer...I left that behind for beer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They don't actually filter oxygen. The problem being that most filter media combust in a pure oxygen environment...so if not fire, then at least lots of CO and other nasty stuff! Even stainless steel will readily combust in the right conditions...high pressure O2, a spark or superheated metal spur...goes up like sparklers.


Of course this is not an Australian source but noticed with amusement there is also a "Research" grade for maximum anality, but no mention of "beer" (food) grade in there.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

2much2spend said:


> So what's the process of getting medical o2 or clean o2. It's not like you gas people with it. I know it can combust with oil and it support's combustion but that is the only negative I an see with it.


Sign up to a BOC account and order a medical cylinder: Size C is approx 750g for $30, size D is about 2.5 kg for $45. You need to add about $15 / month rental on the cylinder. You'll have to answer some questions on what you want it for.

High purity and food grade cylinders only come in larger sizes: smallest food grade is an E which is about 6 kg for $80, smallest high purity is a G which is 10 kg for $400.


----------



## Rocker1986

The guy at BOC looked at me a bit funny when I was there last week when I told him I was using it to oxygenate unfermented beer prior to pitching yeast :lol: But, I have my cylinder and reg now.. just gotta get a couple of other bits this week and it will be all set to try out on my next batch, which is a Cz Pils. Will be a good one for testing actually because it's a regular recipe so will be interesting to see how it turns out compared to previous ones that only got the "pour cube in from a height" method of aeration.


----------



## Dave70

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> The calculations are way off, I think that flow rate calculator is for water not gas*.
> 
> Even if you use a gas flow calculator the results wouldn't be useful: the rate limiting component on your oxygenation rig is usually the sinter, not the line. I have a sinter flowrate calculator somewhere but I only ever use it to calculate the size of sinter needed to do a particular job, there's too much variability to use it for process control.
> 
> In industial practice we use an on cylinder flow gauge, for accuracy you must convert the pressure unless you use one of the special pressure compensating gauges.
> 
> For home I use an upturned jug in a bucket to calculate the output of the sinter at a known O2 pressure and go with that.
> 
> These days I don't even do that, I just give it a shot at roughly the right pressure and time; I only use O2 as a backup for the oleic acid addition (I think O2 still helps with ergosterol synthesis and since I'm paying rent on the cylinder already I might as well use it).


Can I bother you to put training wheels on that. 
I've got a 6mm silicone tube plugged into the industrial regulator with a 2 micron stainless air stone plugged into it. 
How many kpa for how many seconds would you recommend? Plain old beer, nothing super high gravity or otherwise in need of special attention.


----------



## Batz

Bunnings Coregas, $69.00 for a D size cylinder - 2.1m3.

Cheap as chips. No rental.


----------



## 2much2spend

So what to dive shops use? For o2


----------



## peteru

Do they use O2? Not just compressed air?


----------



## Matplat

Correct, much easier to just compress the gas that is all around us....


----------



## SBOB

Batz said:


> Bunnings Coregas, $69.00 for a D size cylinder - 2.1m3.
> 
> Cheap as chips. No rental.


$200 deposit though


----------



## 2much2spend

peteru said:


> Do they use O2? Not just compressed air?


 nitrox mix. Can go a blend up to 32% o2


----------



## Batz

SBOB said:


> $200 deposit though


True, I guess you need to find $200, but it is a deposit which you get back if/when you return it.

Works out good if you were a brewer who scored a very cheap regulator for one of these bottles though. There's a few here who have.


----------



## hotmelt

$200 for a C size bottle and O2 at Gasweld.
http://www.gasweld.com.au/speed-gas-gas-kit-oxygen-c-size-includes-bottle-oxygen-gas-oxygen-c-kit

Might get one meself to go with my $60 reg from Masters.


----------



## Phoney

SBOB said:


> the one from bunnings is an m10 thread. Brewman's one is an M12 from memory, so they are different
> 
> Though, the price/value comparison is pretty much the same.
> Bunnings is like $50/136g bottle, Brewmans is $55/136g bottle (and you get to support a much nicer guy than bunnings)
> 
> The smaller bottles at supercheap etc are worse $/g comparisons



Fair enough. I'm more than happy to support a nice guy & shun bunnings.

How many litres of wort can a 136g bottle oxygenate anyhow?


----------



## Liam_snorkel

here's an estimate.


Crusty said:


> [...] In terms of length of life, I'm not sure. If you were adding 2L/min for 60sec, you would get over 50 brews from one of those Trade Flame disposable oxygen cylinders from Bunnings, they hold 930ml of oxygen or around 110L.[...]


----------



## 2much2spend

hotmelt said:


> $200 for a C size bottle and O2 at Gasweld.
> http://www.gasweld.com.au/speed-gas-gas-kit-oxygen-c-size-includes-bottle-oxygen-gas-oxygen-c-kit
> 
> Might get one meself to go with my $60 reg from Masters.


. C type bottles are not that common. But seems like the best deal so far.


----------



## Tony121

hotmelt said:


> $200 for a C size bottle and O2 at Gasweld.
> http://www.gasweld.com.au/speed-gas-gas-kit-oxygen-c-size-includes-bottle-oxygen-gas-oxygen-c-kit
> 
> Might get one meself to go with my $60 reg from Masters.


Just a thought....

It looks as though this one from Gasweld has a female thread that takes a standard O2 reg. However, the c size O2 bottles from BOC have a male thread and use a female regulator. Best to check before you buy.


----------



## Killer Brew

Can't see a size for the Supercheap bottle online. Is only $33 though.


----------



## Tony121

Rocker1986 said:


> The guy at BOC looked at me a bit funny when I was there last week when I told him I was using it to oxygenate unfermented beer prior to pitching yeast :lol: But, I have my cylinder and reg now.. just gotta get a couple of other bits this week and it will be all set to try out on my next batch, which is a Cz Pils. Will be a good one for testing actually because it's a regular recipe so will be interesting to see how it turns out compared to previous ones that only got the "pour cube in from a height" method of aeration.


Please keep us posted, I would be interested in the results.

Regardless though, I have just ordered a wand and am piecing a set together at present following the feedback from this thread.


----------



## niftinev

2much2spend said:


> . C type bottles are not that common. But seems like the best deal so far.


D bottle holds nearly 3 volumes a C bottle does


----------



## 2much2spend

niftinev said:


> D bottle holds nearly 3 volumes a C bottle does


Yeah. I noticed that they are not in vic, will be hard to get a refill


----------



## altone

Killer Brew said:


> Can't see a size for the Supercheap bottle online. Is only $33 though.


That looks awfully like a rebadged Bernzomatic bottle - the welding kits look like it too.
so probably 40.1g

*edit:* just checked online and they are indeed 40.1g 
If you live in QLD Gettoolsdirect.com.au have them for $31.62 if you have a store nearby.
Other places, gasweld.com.au have them for $30.90 - branded Bernzomatic.

Only connection with either store is, a Google search and I get my BBQ gas from Gasweld

Sorry - final edit, you can also get them free post on fleabay for $39.80 if you live in some goddam beautiful place away from the city.


----------



## professional_drunk

Coodgee said:


> is it easy/possible to over-oxygenate? are there dire consequences?


From my experience, yes.
I once pitched nottingham yeast and oxygenated for 40s. Got that soggy cardboard flavour of oxidation which I couldn't put down to my processes.

Rules of thumb from experience:

Don't oxy any dried yeasts, it's not necessary.
American and German yeasts get 40s 1gL of o2 for average gravity.
English yeasts don't require as much and so get 10s 1gL of o2 for average gravity.
YMMV.


----------



## Kingy

Are you guys getting lower fg's using 02?


----------



## Coldspace

professional_drunk said:


> From my experience, yes.
> I once pitched nottingham yeast and oxygenated for 40s. Got that soggy cardboard flavour of oxidation which I couldn't put down to my processes.
> 
> Rules of thumb from experience:
> 
> 
> Don't oxy any dried yeasts, it's not necessary.
> American and German yeasts get 40s 1gL of o2 for average gravity.
> English yeasts don't require as much and so get 10s 1gL of o2 for average gravity.
> YMMV.


Not saying your wrong, but my experiments have proved diff,

I've been running my ales, chilled to 19, 2.5 ltrs a minute for between 60 and 90 secs depending on grav.
All turned out excellent.

Lagers, 2.5 ltrs minute for 2 mins. All at 8-9 degrees, turning out excellent. After lag from cold pitch.

We have oxygenated friends kits and bits worts , all using us 05 dried yeast. 1.5 pkts pitched at 19 degrees. All turned out great and better than the paint stirrer .

Lyre bird cycles or MHB can chime in on the scientific explanations, but basically diff temps of wort will hold diff levels of O2 . 

You can possibly over do it, I did read somewhere I think wyeast or somewhere that it's very hard for homebrewer to over do it unless you go real hard.

My purging rates for me seem to be good enough for me... I am not that worried by my rates as I just got tips from others here and other sites.

If you have had oxidation issues before it would of happened after fermentation finishes, not before, and I highly dought it was from over doing the O2 at the start with the rates you posted.

Just my 2 cents, could be wrong but I'm still experimenting myself and it's all heading into the right direction for me.

Cheers


----------



## Goose

Kingy said:


> Are you guys getting lower fg's using 02?


no but I got a much slower start

I found out when I realised my bottle was empty on this particular brew....


----------



## Phoney

Coldspace said:


> Lyre bird cycles or MHB can chime in on the scientific explanations, but basically diff temps of wort will hold diff levels of O2 .


It's high school science.  Colder water can hold more dissolved oxygen than warmer water, with 4C being the saturation point. It's also why zooplankton / phytoplankton density is greater in colder oceans than warm tropical oceans - thats why the latter are clearer and bluer. But I digress, that has nothing to do with beer.


----------



## Rocker1986

Tony121 said:


> Please keep us posted, I would be interested in the results.
> 
> Regardless though, I have just ordered a wand and am piecing a set together at present following the feedback from this thread.


Will do mate. I'm gonna pick up a wand from Craftbrewer on Thursday along with a few other things. Now that I have a decent enough shopping list I figure it's worth driving there.. it's a bit far for my liking just for one item h34r:


----------



## Coodgee

professional_drunk said:


> From my experience, yes.
> I once pitched nottingham yeast and oxygenated for 40s. Got that soggy cardboard flavour of oxidation which I couldn't put down to my processes.
> 
> Rules of thumb from experience:
> 
> Don't oxy any dried yeasts, it's not necessary.
> American and German yeasts get 40s 1gL of o2 for average gravity.
> English yeasts don't require as much and so get 10s 1gL of o2 for average gravity.
> YMMV.


Thanks that's an interesting perspective. I wonder if we are getting a bit carried away here with the "magic of oxygen"


----------



## MHB

Well if the yeast does more reproducing because it has more O2 available, it stands to reason you will have a longer lag time to get the higher population.
You will however probably get a lower FG, and get there faster, all things being done properly less than 7 days (usually about 4 days).

If you have a read of the following I think Fermentis recommend aeration after pitching their dry yeast as being fine idea.
View attachment SafaleUS05.pdf


"Alternatively, pitch dry yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of
the wort is above 20C (68F). Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the
yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave for 30 minutes
and then mix the wort e.g. using aeration."

Mark


----------



## Adr_0

MHB said:


> Well if the yeast does more reproducing because it has more O2 available, it stands to reason you will have a longer lag time to get the higher population.
> You will however probably get a lower FG, and get there faster, all things being done properly less than 7 days (usually about 4 days).
> 
> If you have a read of the following I think Fermentis recommend aeration after pitching their dry yeast as being fine idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SafaleUS05.pdf
> 
> "Alternatively, pitch dry yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of
> the wort is above 20C (68F). Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the
> yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave for 30 minutes
> and then mix the wort e.g. using aeration."
> 
> Mark


I was about to ask why dry yeasts won't appreciate dissolved O2, but there you go.


----------



## Coldspace

Coodgee said:


> Thanks that's an interesting perspective. I wonder if we are getting a bit carried away here with the "magic of oxygen"


Could be... I always get excited by my brewing toys, love this hobby but finding my beers and mates are better, but depends on other things been in balance. Yes O2 is not the magic bullet, just another piece of the puzzle, lots of other things to get right as well. But making some very nice beers ATM 

Yes, MHB , have noticed a little longer lag, due to the breeding program going on . But as we generally all under pitch a little compared to say bigger breweries , then wouldn't a little longer lag, and a bigger breeding population make the beer a little better all things been equal.

My taste buds recon so. All that matters to me.


----------



## Mr B

MHB said:


> Well if the yeast does more reproducing because it has more O2 available, it stands to reason you will have a longer lag time to get the higher population.
> You will however probably get a lower FG, and get there faster, all things being done properly less than 7 days (usually about 4 days).
> 
> If you have a read of the following I think Fermentis recommend aeration after pitching their dry yeast as being fine idea.
> 
> 
> 
> SafaleUS05.pdf
> 
> "Alternatively, pitch dry yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of
> the wort is above 20C (68F). Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the
> yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave for 30 minutes
> and then mix the wort e.g. using aeration."
> 
> Mark


Would this mean that a larger pitch would do the same?

I get that there can be overpitching issues, so I guess the thing is how much does the growth phase contribute to flavour (or not contribute to flavour), as opposed to the alchohol production phase (based on my (hopefully correct) understanding that yeast first grows, then produces alc)?

This line of thinking may result in requiring a starter equal to the volume of yeast the batch size will produce (so cannot be correct)?

Incidentally, I have two overflowing fermentors in my fridge. Has become incereasingly common. I put it down to maybe process improvements and using nutrient.

Edit: Or that my shaking of the cube is improving.......


----------



## MHB

Not necessarily, there are benefits to having the yeast spend some time reproducing in the wort, a highly overpitched beer can have other problems.
At the "right" pitch rate and the "right" DO level the yeast will consume all the Oxygen and other nutrients in the wort that we want removed at or about the same time, this is actually better for the beer flavour, stability and ultimately for the yeast health if you are looking to repatch the yeast.

Yeast will go through a series of steps once pitched, first there is a period of acclimatisation, then the yeast starts to reproduce - until any one of the things that limit the population happen (usually O2 runs out) then the beer starts making Alcohol and at this stage starts to make most of the esters that we associate with Ale brewing (these are minimised in Lager brewing by bigger pitches (~+50%) and much cooler fermenting temperatures).

I'm not trying to overcomplicate the process, the reverse actually, it really can be complex if you want to dig into yeast far enough.
Remember hat you don't need to pitch a starter, just the yeast in it (slurry), get the population you want then cool it till it settles, syphon off most of the unneeded liquor on top of the yeast, adjust the slurry temperature to the wort temperature, aerate then pitch.

Oxygen and all the various nutrients, the fermentability of the wort, trace elements, lipids and fatty acids, available nitrogen, the pH and the pitch rate as well as the average age of the yeast cells, and how healthy they are, all play a measurable role in how the yeast preforms. There are few Right answers and at best we are making a series of comprises.

Nothing other than O2 will get the optimum amount into solution, shaking, spraying air pumps... just wont get enough O2 into solution (better than none) - but as I said its a compromise we all have to do the best we can with what we have. O2 is important, personally I would put good temperature control before it, good hygiene a long way in front of that...

You just have to love brewing don't you
Mark


----------



## Moad

Damn this thread. Brewman gets my cash again


----------



## Camo6

2much2spend said:


> Yeah. I noticed that they are not in vic, will be hard to get a refill


Gasweld in Dandenong sell and exchange bottles. I recently upgraded my argon bottle from C to E as the tig would chew through the smaller bottle. For oxygenating wort, a C would still last you a long time I'd imagine. Gasweld will also let you upgrade from a smaller bottle to a larger one. You just need to pay the difference between bottle costs, plus a refill cost, and supply the original purchase receipt.


----------



## Coldspace

Totally agree....

First sanitary,
Then temps control, ingredients,
Time ie, proper ferment and conditioning times
Then little icings on the cake.... O2, etc

Love this forum.


----------



## 2much2spend

Mr B said:


> Would this mean that a larger pitch would do the same?
> 
> I get that there can be overpitching issues, so I guess the thing is how much does the growth phase contribute to flavour (or not contribute to flavour), as opposed to the alchohol production phase (based on my (hopefully correct) understanding that yeast first grows, then produces alc)?
> 
> This line of thinking may result in requiring a starter equal to the volume of yeast the batch size will produce (so cannot be correct)?
> 
> Incidentally, I have two overflowing fermentors in my fridge. Has become incereasingly common. I put it down to maybe process improvements and using nutrient.
> 
> Edit: Or that my shaking of the cube is improving.......


My understanding is that over pitching would not be a problem for a homebrewer because you would have to pitch up to 3x more than the optimum just to start seeing the negative effect's.


----------



## 2much2spend

Also that using an air pump or shaking will only get a mad of 8ppm of o2.


----------



## 2much2spend

I Kent to say Max


----------



## 2much2spend

Ment. F#%$n auto correct


----------



## mstrelan

Meant


----------



## nic0

nic0 said:


> I just had a crack with an aquarium pump and a carb stone. It worked well in a glass of water but then i put the carb stone in some sterilisation solution with out any air running through it and it filled with water so i just stuck the end of the hose in my mash paddle and let it go for 20min. Next time i will keep the air running through the stone.


Put down a pale ale yesterday and had another crack with the carb stone but left the air on this time. 20 minutes later i had alot better result with lots of small bubbles on the surface. It will be interesting to see if it makes any difference as i am still doing kit and a kilo.


----------



## Tahoose

C'mon guys, I'm trying to save money over here... :unsure:


----------



## Dave70

Tahoose said:


> C'mon guys, I'm trying to save money over here... :unsure:



$44.99 any day of the week. 
Practice the art of rationalization, you must.


----------



## Radshoes

so im looking at getting two aquarium pump and filter and stone set ups. First rationalisation for the double up is because I do two ferments at a time I can have one running in each for the prescribed 15-30 minutes and not be waiting to finish aerating one before starting the other, but now I am thinking maybe I can run 2 into one vessel and hopefully get more in quicker, and then move to the next.


----------



## Newy

Hands down the best thread I have read so far.

Thank you to all the informative posters.

Brewman has my money :beer:


----------



## Tahoose

Dave70 said:


> $44.99 any day of the week.
> Practice the art of rationalization, you must.



1 - It would need to be a damn sight cheaper than that for me to be actually saving the $$$.
2 - I would need to be paid $44.99 to drink a few of those.


----------



## Stouter

Newy said:


> Brewman has my money :beer:


He might not. I've been communicating with him on my internet machine and computer says no!
His EFTPOS has been down so it's PAYPAL or direct account deposits until it's up and rolling again.
Top bloke for service, he's gotten back to me so quick with a couple of questions I had.


----------



## Newy

Ah ok, cheers, thanks for that, I paid with Paypal so might be alright, I'll send him an email to make sure.


----------



## Moad

o2 setup arrived today. First brew on the new rig this weekend so I was planning on doing a split batch, one aerated and one not aerated.

The only yeast I have with enough to do 2 batches with is US05. Then I read don't 02 with dry yeast... is it still worth doing the side by side?


----------



## Killer Brew

Moad said:


> o2 setup arrived today. First brew on the new rig this weekend so I was planning on doing a split batch, one aerated and one not aerated.
> 
> The only yeast I have with enough to do 2 batches with is US05. Then I read don't 02 with dry yeast... is it still worth doing the side by side?


I think you only read this from one poster. Recommend reading through MHB's post a little earlier before making a final call on that.


----------



## Moad

Thanks mate, I did read that post and should have re read before posting here. Distracted with work...hmph!


----------



## Zorco

MHB is correct imho. Everyone should consider seriously.


----------



## Coldspace

Moad , Go hard son, I love side by side comparisons , makes you aware of differences straight away.

I often with my double batch brews, because the worts are identicle I do diff dry hopping on each, diff yeasts etc and keep lots of notes.

Side by side with and without O2 I have not done yet, but might soon on something with all other things been equal.

Let us know how it turns out....


----------



## Brewman_

Stouter said:


> He might not. I've been communicating with him on my internet machine and computer says no!
> His EFTPOS has been down so it's PAYPAL or direct account deposits until it's up and rolling again.
> Top bloke for service, he's gotten back to me so quick with a couple of questions I had.


Hey Stouter,
Mate everything is back to normal.

I was astounded by this. Reported the eftpos dead first thing Monday and I had a new one by the close of business today. So it's all good again.

Cheers Steve


----------



## Moad

Coldspace said:


> Moad , Go hard son, I love side by side comparisons , makes you aware of differences straight away.
> 
> I often with my double batch brews, because the worts are identicle I do diff dry hopping on each, diff yeasts etc and keep lots of notes.
> 
> Side by side with and without O2 I have not done yet, but might soon on something with all other things been equal.
> 
> Let us know how it turns out....


Will do, I also have some WY1450 for a third batch and because I have nothing on tap right now I'll be able to put them all side by side. I am really going to enjoy knocking out 120L... anyway OT sorry


----------



## Phoney

Well my brewman oxy kit turned up yesterday and luckily I had a cube full of Irish red ale ready to pitch with 1084. So gave it a blast at 60 seconds with the tap completely open. Let's see how she goes!

The hose came naturally curled, so it was a little challenging getting it to stay put at the bottom of the fermenter. Does anyone suggest that the SS wand is a worthy investment - or should I just persevere with getting the hose straightened out as best I can?


----------



## Crakkers

Phoney said:


> Well my brewman oxy kit turned up yesterday and luckily I had a cube full of Irish red ale ready to pitch with 1084. So gave it a blast at 60 seconds with the tap completely open. Let's see how she goes!
> 
> The hose came naturally curled, so it was a little challenging getting it to stay put at the bottom of the fermenter. Does anyone suggest that the SS wand is a worthy investment - or should I just persevere with getting the hose straightened out as best I can?


Mine hasn't arrived yet, most likely because I'm still saving up for it, but I don't see why you couldn't just attach the stone end to the end of a long brewing spoon.
A tiny cable tie would do it and could be just cut off and replaced each brew.
It would only add a couple of cents each time, or (I'm sure I'm not alone here) a previous employer may have been generous enough to gift you a lifetime's supply of the things.


----------



## Brewman_

Phoney said:


> Well my brewman oxy kit turned up yesterday and luckily I had a cube full of Irish red ale ready to pitch with 1084. So gave it a blast at 60 seconds with the tap completely open. Let's see how she goes!
> 
> The hose came naturally curled, so it was a little challenging getting it to stay put at the bottom of the fermenter. Does anyone suggest that the SS wand is a worthy investment - or should I just persevere with getting the hose straightened out as best I can?


Hi Phoney,
Like you say the hose curls. It should start to straighten out now its unpacked. Could heat with hot water and lay it out straight till it cools.

The wand makes the whole thing easier but you should be fine once the hose straightens a bit.


----------



## Rocker1986

My little connector thingy for the regulator arrived today, now I'm probably missing something obvious here but how the hell do you get the thing together?


----------



## Zorco

Poke the barb through the nut


----------



## Rocker1986

Zorco said:


> Poke the barb through the nut


Derp.. told you I'd miss something obvious. Been a long day lol


----------



## Batz

Rocker1986 said:


> Derp.. told you I'd miss something obvious. Been a long day lol



:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Rocker1986

Yep pretty much mate.. hahaha. I bet if the thing had have arrived earlier when I wasn't so tired I would have worked it out in a couple of seconds.

Anyway, I'm off to CB tomorrow for a bunch of things including an oxywand so I'll be able to give it a crack on Monday when my next batch is pitched. B)


----------



## Zorco

I got into work at 5:45am and was about to pour my cereal onto a dinner plate. 

I get tired


----------



## Phoney

Brewman_ said:


> Hi Phoney,
> Like you say the hose curls. It should start to straighten out now its unpacked. Could heat with hot water and lay it out straight till it cools.
> 
> The wand makes the whole thing easier but you should be fine once the hose straightens a bit.



Thanks buddy!




One more question for you. Whats the best way of keeping the airstone sanitized? Is a starsan rinse sufficient - or should I go for something more nuclear eg: a PBW solution soak?


----------



## Coodgee

Phoney said:


> Thanks buddy!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One more question for you. Whats the best way of keeping the airstone sanitized? Is a starsan rinse sufficient - or should I go for something more nuclear eg: a PBW solution soak?


can you boil it?


----------



## Rocker1986

Well CB were out of oxywands so not sure what I'm gonna do now... might have to wait til the batch after this one to try it out.


----------



## technobabble66

Just pulled the trigger on ANPROS's Hydropure 35 - their food/pharma grade 35% H2O2.
Just getting a 250mL bottle to try out this method of oxygenation, plus a little dropper bottle to dilute into.
So ~$30 for the 35% H2O2, ~$3 for the amber dropper bottle, and ~$20 for the Dangerous Goods courier to home (all plus GST). Unfortunately ordered a little late to be likely to get here tomorrow, so maybe gets here on monday.
Total ~$55-60 for this setup, as opposed to ~$150-250 for the gas setups (inc oxywands, if they can be obtained  ).
I just hope it works! :lol:


----------



## rude

So how much are you going to put in say 23 L of wort after you pitch 2g ???


----------



## technobabble66

Dilute down to 3% (~10:1 dilution). 
16.5g solution into ~23L *after* pitching yeast. 

Will probably be making 25L of higher grav wort, so will compensate to 18-20g solution.


----------



## peteru

Good luck. Make sure your fermenter has ample head space and that you have a decent size starter. (Which you are probably doing anyway.)

If you can split some before adding the H2O2 and ferment in a separate bottle for comparison, you may get a feel for how much of a difference the H2O2 makes.


----------



## Meddo

Rocker1986 said:


> Well CB were out of oxywands so not sure what I'm gonna do now... might have to wait til the batch after this one to try it out.


No affiliation, if you give ibrew a ring soon they might be able to get one to you tomorrow. Otherwise if you feel like giving Mick at Cannon Hill a call he might have some, dunno if that's driving distance for you.


http://www.ibrew.com.au/products/diffusion-stones


----------



## Zorco

@Rocker1986

I drive to the coast three days a week including tomorrow. I'm popping into ibrew to order glycol and pick up some other bits.

Happy to bring your equipment to Brisbane for Friday night. I'm near Mitchelton


----------



## Batz

Any brewers looking at getting into an industrial type cylinder, BOC or Coregas (Bunnings), send me a PM before you pay $$$ for a regulator.
I just maybe able to save you a few of those $$$.

Batz


----------



## 2much2spend

Batz said:


> Any brewers looking at getting into an industrial type cylinder, BOC or Coregas (Bunnings), send me a PM before you pay $$$ for a regulator.
> I just maybe able to save you a few of those $$$.
> 
> Batz


 what you taking about batz?


----------



## Phoney

Coodgee said:


> can you boil it?


The stone, sure. The hose that it's attached to, which is this type - I'm unsure if it's boil proof.


----------



## Batz

2much2spend said:


> what you taking about batz?


Sorry it's a hard question.


----------



## Stouter

Hoorah, my magic wand is on the way. I shall soon be the Hairy Pothole of brewing!

Wand and stone are in the mail (thanks Brewman), and I've got everything else sorted ready.
Going to try it out by the end of next week I hope. Keen as **** to see/taste the results and play around with timing, etc.


----------



## Brewman_

Phoney said:


> Thanks buddy!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One more question for you. Whats the best way of keeping the airstone sanitized? Is a starsan rinse sufficient - or should I go for something more nuclear eg: a PBW solution soak?


Hi Phoney,

Can clean with Sodium Perc solution, or PBW, BBW.

Make sure you let it dry well.

Before use sanitise with your normal sanitiser, I also turn on the gas and the stone will foam up. Then I tip a bit of boiled water over it just to get most of the sanitiser off. Then into the wort with the gas running so that the wort does not fill into the stone.

Some guys have been boiling them.

And don't leave the gauge on the disposable bottle. It should be removed to prevent the O2 from leaking out.


----------



## verysupple

I started using O2 of the Bernzomatic variety via a 2 um stone about 10 batches ago and I've definitely noticed faster starts to ferments, bigger krausens (not that it really means anything), and shorter times to FG, which are all good signs, but I haven't really noticed an increase in final beer quality. I have to admit these were all <1.054 OG beers so it might (probably would) be different for high gravity beers. Also I always use substantial stir plate starters which might have helped the non-O2'd beers. 

That all said, I'm not about to give up the system for two reasons: 1) the benefits mentioned at the start of my post, and 2) just because I can't taste a big difference doesn't mean it's not there (my guests may be more discerning than myself). Also, it's pretty cheap insurance once you're set up.


----------



## Rocker1986

Zorco said:


> @Rocker1986
> 
> I drive to the coast three days a week including tomorrow. I'm popping into ibrew to order glycol and pick up some other bits.
> 
> Happy to bring your equipment to Brisbane for Friday night. I'm near Mitchelton


Hey mate, that actually sounds like not a bad idea. What sort of time would work?


----------



## Zorco

I'll be home from 6:00pm.


----------



## Zorco

DP


----------



## Rocker1986

That works out well, I finish at 6.30ish at Sherwood, so it's not too far to drive from there to pick it up


----------



## Zorco

See, getting into O2 coz were serious about nice beer! PM me your moby and we can sort out the details mate!


----------



## Futur

Just to stir the pot but has anyone considered a dissolved oxygen meter to be the first investment before buying o2 equipment? IMO every one of you is flying blind with your o2 dosage which will depend on so many different factors, e.g. flow rate, temperature, wort volume, size of bubbles & time.

There could be a whole lot of you with this new expensive gear who are going to either over or under dose on o2 which both are detrimental to fermentation.


----------



## Stouter

Futur said:


> Just to stir the pot but has anyone considered a dissolved oxygen meter to be the first investment before buying o2 equipment? IMO every one of you is flying blind with your o2 dosage which will depend on so many different factors, e.g. flow rate, temperature, wort volume, size of bubbles & time.
> 
> There could be a whole lot of you with this new expensive gear who are going to either over or under dose on o2 which both are detrimental to fermentation.


D.O meters don't look too cheap. Do you know of a source at a good price.


----------



## Killer Brew

Futur said:


> Just to stir the pot but has anyone considered a dissolved oxygen meter to be the first investment before buying o2 equipment? IMO every one of you is flying blind with your o2 dosage which will depend on so many different factors, e.g. flow rate, temperature, wort volume, size of bubbles & time.
> 
> There could be a whole lot of you with this new expensive gear who are going to either over or under dose on o2 which both are detrimental to fermentation.


A DO meter to get into the ppb range starts at around $20k. That's a fairly sizeable first investment!


----------



## Futur

Stouter said:


> D.O meters don't look too cheap. Do you know of a source at a good price.


Cheapest decent meter I could find is the Extech DO600, on ebay for about $360 including postage. I've got one coming in the next few weeks. 

My point being is if you look at the saturation limits of O2 within water at temperature, the recommended 8-10 mg/L of O2 can be achieved via standard aeration with air. However knowing when you've hit the recommended O2 dose is the issue, unless you have a meter.


----------



## Futur

Killer Brew said:


> A DO meter to get into the ppb range starts at around $20k. That's a fairly sizeable first investment!


Recommended wort O2 levels within the Kunze are 8-10 mg/L. Which is ppm, not ppb. Hence a meter that doesn't cost $20k is adequate.


----------



## Stouter

I dunno about that. $360 translates into a lot of other more meaningful brewing kit for my own situation. Not to diminish your decision, hats off for going so far into your precision.
I think I'll be flying be the seat of my pants for now and performing some educated guesses for my timings.


----------



## Futur

Stouter said:


> I dunno about that. $360 translates into a lot of other more meaningful brewing kit for my own situation. Not to diminish your decision, hats off for going so far into your precision.
> I think I'll be flying be the seat of my pants for now and performing some educated guesses for my timings.


I respect your decision also, beer can still be made without all the fancy kit. Ultimately it can get to a point of diminishing returns. But personally for me the meter is worth the cash and will also be used for low oxygen brewing.


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Futur if you could post some results here when you get it that would be great. Is wort temp flow rate, time & DO.


----------



## MHB

If you have a look at the data that makes the graph (dissolved O2 in water) if your wort is above say 16oC there is no way you can over saturate. Worth noting that solubility in wort is lower than for water (as SG goes up, solubility goes down). Most ale brewers can forget about an O2 meter, where you could run into trouble is with cold wort say 6-8oC for lager, wouldn't be hard to work out a couple of idiot proof ways to get the right DO levels.
One that comes to mind is to chill a small portion say 5L of wort, to around 1-2oC oxygenate that to its limit then mix it into the rest of the wort (haven't done the numbers but its a very straight forward C1V1=CaV2)

Yes I do want a good DO meter, love the tech gear but don't think its necessary, except maybe for an accurate thermometer, a pH meter, maybe a calibrated hydrometer or digital......
Mark


----------



## Mardoo

MHB said:


> Yes I do want a good DO meter, love the tech gear but don't think its necessary, except maybe for an accurate thermometer, a pH meter, maybe a calibrated hydrometer or digital......


...shifter.


----------



## Adr_0

Mardoo said:


> ...shifter.


...mash paddle


----------



## Futur

Liam_snorkel said:


> Futur if you could post some results here when you get it that would be great. Is wort temp flow rate, time & DO.


Hi Liam,

Looks like the guys over at morebeer have done this for us already (for ales @ 19C). It's a great article for everyone here about to jump into O2. It does however highlight the degree of variability of oxygen dosage dependant on the factors I mentioned earlier. If using O2 it's recommended a sound method should be used to meter the correct amount into your wort.


----------



## Liam_snorkel

thanks for the link :icon_cheers:


----------



## Phoney

From that article:


> Attenuation and ester production in worts of the same gravity but differing levels of dissolved oxygen were equivalent. Comparing beer made from worts with dissolved oxygen levels in the 6.0–8.0 ppm range and those made from worts with levels greater than 12.0 ppm, the flavor characteristics were indistinguishable.


In summery, excessive aeration with a stick blender or paint stirrer on a drill can get your wort up to 7.0 ppm, but an oxygen setup will often get your wort up to 11.0 ppm or higher. The end resulting beer will be the same, but your fermentation will be much quicker and healthier and have a far less chance of coming into contact with airborne contaminants.


----------



## Futur

Phoney said:


> From that article:
> In summery, excessive aeration with a stick blender or paint stirrer on a drill can get your wort up to 7.0 ppm, but an oxygen setup will often get your wort up to 11.0 ppm or higher. The end resulting beer will be the same, but your fermentation will be much quicker and healthier and have a far less chance of coming into contact with airborne contaminants.


Note that 7.0 ppm figure is at 19C, if your pitching temperature is lower you can achieve higher. See this other great article on oxygen in brewing.

According to that article for standard 12P worts if your pitch temperature is at 15C, you can achieve 8 ppm through normal aeration and up to 10 ppm at 5C (for lagers). For high gravity brewing though, pure o2 is required.


----------



## fungrel

Phoney said:


> From that article:
> In summery, excessive aeration with a stick blender or paint stirrer on a drill can get your wort up to 7.0 ppm, but an oxygen setup will often get your wort up to 11.0 ppm or higher. The end resulting beer will be the same, but your fermentation will be much quicker and healthier and have a far less chance of coming into contact with airborne contaminants.


I can attest to this. 
With o2 and addition of ALDC (enzyme that speeds maturation and formation of diacetyl during fermentation) i can get a moderate gravity beer to packaging state in 7 days. Without the addition of the enzyme, i can go to packaging state in around 7-9 days. Without o2, and without the enzyme, it is more like 9-12 days.

I have seen a difference in the quality of my beer, but i don't necessarily believe that the one defining factor in overall quality is the use of pure o2.


----------



## verysupple

Futur said:


> Just to stir the pot but has anyone considered a dissolved oxygen meter to be the first investment before buying o2 equipment? IMO every one of you is flying blind with your o2 dosage which will depend on so many different factors, e.g. flow rate, temperature, wort volume, size of bubbles & time.
> 
> There could be a whole lot of you with this new expensive gear who are going to either over or under dose on o2 which both are detrimental to fermentation.


I take your point but would argue a DO meter isn't really necessary.

I'd love to get one and do everything as precicely as possible but I don't think I really need to. The range of DO levels in wort that is perfectly fine is not _that_ narrow. It's not like anyone's aiming for exatly 9.85 ppm or anything like that. I have a cheap flow meter which means I can at least be consistent and change the dosages relatively batch to batch. Sure, I don't know what ppm I'm actually getting, but I can observe the results (both fermentation performance and final beer taste) and adjust next time if necessary. It's not like you know what the _ideal_ DO level is before you brew a beer anyway. We only have a recommended range.

In that respect it's a bit like yeast starters. Very few homebrewers actually count the yeast density using a microscope to find out if they're pitching at the exact rate they were aiming for. I do have a microscope and haemocytometer and have used it exactly once to count yeast cells. It was a bit of fun but it's a lot of effort and typically far too expensive to be worth it for most homebrewers. I only did it because I got mine free when the Uni was getting rid of the really, really outdated microscopes. The point is, as long as you're consistent with your methodology so that you can make controlled adjustments in the future if necessary, you have to be better off than not doing it at all.

Also, using bottled O2 is a lot better on my body than shaking a full FV and a lot faster than aeration (atmospheric).


----------



## Futur

verysupple said:


> I take your point but would argue a DO meter isn't really necessary.
> 
> I'd love to get one and do everything as precicely as possible but I don't think I really need to. The range of DO levels in wort that is perfectly fine is not _that_ narrow. It's not like anyone's aiming for exatly 9.85 ppm or anything like that. I have a cheap flow meter which means I can at least be consistent and change the dosages relatively batch to batch. Sure, I don't know what ppm I'm actually getting, but I can observe the results (both fermentation performance and final beer taste) and adjust next time if necessary. It's not like you know what the _ideal_ DO level is before you brew a beer anyway. We only have a recommended range.


I guess part of my point is that there is an argument that pure O2 isn't really necessary either depending on your situation. If the recommended O2 rates for ales and lagers @ 12P can be achieved with standard aeration without buying a bottle, regulator, wand and stone then that I can imagine that would suit the vast majority of people. However if you brew high gravity beers, pitch at higher temperatures then you would be at an advantage using pure O2.




verysupple said:


> Also, using bottled O2 is a lot better on my body than shaking a full FV and a lot faster than aeration (atmospheric).


There are easy ways to aerate wort without pure O2 and not do your back in


----------



## Liam_snorkel

but we really like buying extra gadgets


----------



## Zorco

and we really like nicer beer.


----------



## verysupple

Futur said:


> <snip> If the recommended O2 rates for ales and lagers @ 12P can be achieved with standard aeration without buying a bottle, regulator, wand and stone ... <snip>


According to everything I've ever read from yeast manufacturers and brewing texts, they can't.


----------



## Zorco

fungrel said:


> I have seen a difference in the quality of my beer, but i don't necessarily believe that the one defining factor in overall quality is the use of pure o2.


Correct, it isn't.

The defining factor is whether the brewer has pants on when brewing!


----------



## TidalPete

> Quote
> I have a cheap flow meter which means I can at least be consistent and change the dosages relatively batch to batch. Sure, I don't know what ppm I'm actually getting, but I can observe the results (both fermentation performance and final beer taste) and adjust next time if necessary. It's not like you know what the ideal DO level is before you brew a beer anyway. We only have a recommended range.


+1


----------



## Mr B

Masters is now at about 50% off on Cigweld O2 regs. So about 50 bucks, if thats the way you want to roll.


----------



## Batz

Mr B said:


> Masters is now at about 50% off on Cigweld O2 regs. So about 50 bucks, if thats the way you want to roll.


Bargain, get into it!


----------



## Mr B

Yes, that is a bargain, isn't it.

Gosh, with all the discussion, it can be really hard to know in which setup to invest in this confusing world of bottles, regulators, gas suitability, and potential suppliers.

I must say, the advice on standards does give one serious consideration in trying to work out what might be a safe setup.

Just great to see the support of the community in sourcing appropriate, and most of all safe products to improve beer quality.

Have to note the patience and time that people have put in, it really is a sign of a great forum.

Tick for reg, wont be long till the bubbles start, have been scoping for entry for a while.


----------



## Glomp

BOC has these at just over 53 bucks.

https://www.boc.com.au/shop/en/au/magmate-flame-oxygen-regulator. 

I bought one and they look pretty decent


----------



## Batz

OK Batz give away. The first tp PM me can have it.

You'll have to send me a 3kg addressed post bag and I'll send it off to you.

Merry Xmas.

Batz


----------



## SBOB

Very generous... 
Hopefully someone who needs it, and will make use of it, grabs it rather than just someone scoring the freebie


----------



## Batz

Gone to Coodgee.

Enjoy it mate!


----------



## alfadog

Mr B said:


> Masters is now at about 50% off on Cigweld O2 regs. So about 50 bucks, if thats the way you want to roll.


Yesterday there was one unit left at the Coomera Masters. there are still a good 7 or 8 O2 regs left at the Tingalpa Masters.


----------



## Futur

verysupple said:


> According to everything I've ever read from yeast manufacturers and brewing texts, they can't.


That might be true, but what temperature was this done at and via what method? If it was shaking and at room temperature that wouldn't surprise me.

The science says otherwise, 8-10ppm should be achievable without using pure O2. Braukaiser has validated this using a paint mixer on a drill. Once I get my meter in the next few weeks I'll take some measurements for a lager being oxgenated using this same method @ 5-6C.


----------



## Rocker1986

I pitched my latest Bo Pils yesterday, unfortunately at about 20C instead of closer to the 10C ferment temp that I'd have preferred, but it should be ok. It was down to 11/12 in about 7 hours. Anyway, I tried to be careful tipping the cube in this time so it didn't foam up too much because I was using my oxy rig on it. I found some spare gas line lying around and cleaned it up to use with the 0.5 micron diffusion stone that Zorco kindly got for me on Friday. Turned on the oxy and sanitised the stone and line then dropped it into the wort for about a minute or so and bubbled oxygen into it, then pitched the yeast and into the fridge.

It was pitched about 2pm, and it is now sitting at 10C with no visible action although I'm used to this with the 2001 yeast so not reading too much into that. I'll take a sample on Friday and see where the SG is sitting. The OG was 1.0476 and I have 25L in the FV.

I might have to find a less splashy way to transfer the wort to the FV from the cubes using this set up now because it does tend to foam up the wort on top of the foam already there from transfer. Either that or not bubble it as vigorously through the stone.


----------



## Killer Brew

Is the process to pitch and then oxygenate or oxygenate then pitch? Or does it not matter?


----------



## verysupple

Futur said:


> That might be true, but what temperature was this done at and via what method? If it was shaking and at room temperature that wouldn't surprise me.
> 
> The science says otherwise, 8-10ppm should be achievable without using pure O2. Braukaiser has validated this using a paint mixer on a drill. Once I get my meter in the next few weeks I'll take some measurements for a lager being oxgenated using this same method @ 5-6C.


Fair enough, what I've read probably was at roughly room temp as I suspect they probably did their experiments at ale pitching temps. However the method has nothing to do with it, it's the fact that it's atmospheric air and that it's only ~21 % O2 that is the limiting factor (other than temperature as you rightly pointed out).

I guess because I used to aerate at ale pitching temps that I assumed most people did it at that temp, especially for ales. Obviously lagers are a different kettle of fish. It's generally accepted that slightly higher DO levels are prefered for cold pitched lagers anyway so I'd be interested to see the results and find out if the lower temperature is enough to compensate.

One more thing that should be noted is that as the SG increases, the solubility of gas decreases. So while aeration clearly works in a lot of situations it might not be as good for something like a high gravity lager (other than the low pitching temp every other factor is against us here). I guess another reason I like using O2 is because I know it will be able to handle any situation I throw at it.


----------



## verysupple

Killer Brew said:


> Is the process to pitch and then oxygenate or oxygenate then pitch? Or does it not matter?


It doesn't really matter as long as you're doing both pretty close in time - I wouldn't oxygenate hours prior to pitching. I like to pitch and then oxygenate because it mixes the yeast nice and evenly through the wort.


----------



## Adr_0

Regarding dry yeasts (at least Fermentis/Saf):

http://www.fermentis.com/brewing/industrial-brewing/faq/

Seems like the bubbling mechanism helps more than the supply of O2.


----------



## Adr_0

Adr_0 said:


> Regarding dry yeasts (at least Fermentis/Saf):http://www.fermentis.com/brewing/industrial-brewing/faq/
> Seems like the bubbling mechanism helps more than the supply of O2.


... Assuming an accurately calculated and dosed pitch of healthy yeast. I guess if you're expecting growth, it's still gonna help right?


----------



## Killer Brew

Adr_0 said:


> Regarding dry yeasts (at least Fermentis/Saf):http://www.fermentis.com/brewing/industrial-brewing/faq/
> Seems like the bubbling mechanism helps more than the supply of O2.


Not a very clear answer really 

"Does the wort need Oxygenation / aeration?
As the yeast is grown aerobically, the yeast is less sensitive on first pitch. Aeration is recommended to ensure full mixing of the wort and yeast."


----------



## nic0

On the 5/11/16 i put down a ginger beer with OG 1042, i pumped air through it with the hose stuck in the end of my mash paddle as my carb stone filled with my sterilisation solution, tonight its 1022 so it has made no difference. On the 7/11/16 i put down an Australian Pale Ale with OG 1060 and used the carb stone on the end of the hose for about 20min then pitched the yeast. Today it is 1003, this proves that you don't need to spend big bucks on a full on o2 setup an aquarium bubbler and carb stone can achieve great results.


----------



## Crusty

nic0 said:


> On the 5/11/16 i put down a ginger beer with OG 1042, i pumped air through it with the hose stuck in the end of my mash paddle as my carb stone filled with my sterilisation solution, tonight its 1022 so it has made no difference. On the 7/11/16 i put down an Australian Pale Ale with OG 1060 and used the carb stone on the end of the hose for about 20min then pitched the yeast. Today it is 1003, this proves that you don't need to spend big bucks on a full on o2 setup an aquarium bubbler and carb stone can achieve great results.


You can achieve great results with air but not the same result as using pressurized O2.
You simply cannot dissolve as high a concentration of oxygen using air & it's scientifically proven.
It's the pinnacle of wort aeration & you won't see any commercial breweries using an air pump to dissolve O2.
Not knocking your process or affordability at all, just sticking with the facts.


----------



## 5150

My sincere apologies if this was asked before I have read most of the pages but may have missed it.

What regulators are most people using with their D Size bottles. I just picked up a bottle today and thought I had a reg at home, but no joy.

Thanks.


----------



## Crusty

5150 said:


> My sincere apologies if this was asked before I have read most of the pages but may have missed it.
> 
> What regulators are most people using with their D Size bottles. I just picked up a bottle today and thought I had a reg at home, but no joy.
> 
> Thanks.


Cigweld Cutskill from Bunnings.

I think Batz is getting rid of a few regs if you want to send him a message. I'm not sure what brands he's got though.


----------



## SBOB

nic0 said:


> On the 5/11/16 i put down a ginger beer with OG 1042, i pumped air through it with the hose stuck in the end of my mash paddle as my carb stone filled with my sterilisation solution, tonight its 1022 so it has made no difference. On the 7/11/16 i put down an Australian Pale Ale with OG 1060 and used the carb stone on the end of the hose for about 20min then pitched the yeast. Today it is 1003, this proves that you don't need to spend big bucks on a full on o2 setup an aquarium bubbler and carb stone can achieve great results.


not sure how 'that proves it'.. you've simply illustrated that yeast works . You've made no details on your pitching rate, the yeast etc etc, which are all parts of fermentation. Also, unless you also did some o2 based ferments you have no idea if either has a better flavour or attenuation..


im also not sure a pale ale with a SG of 1.060 and a FG of 1.003 is an expected result?? thats a very low FG


----------



## Zorco

SBOB said:


> not sure how 'that proves it'.. you've simply illustrated that yeast works . You've made no details on your pitching rate, the yeast etc etc, which are all parts of fermentation. Also, unless you also did some o2 based ferments you have no idea if either has a better flavour or attenuation..
> 
> 
> im also not sure a pale ale with a SG of 1.060 and a FG of 1.003 is an expected result?? thats a very low FG


Give it a go mate with a couple of side by sides. 

When both my glass fermenters free up that's what I want to try!

Science all the way.

Edit: true, I've never had a beer get under 1014 from that OG...


----------



## Mr B

5150 said:


> My sincere apologies if this was asked before I have read most of the pages but may have missed it.
> 
> What regulators are most people using with their D Size bottles. I just picked up a bottle today and thought I had a reg at home, but no joy.
> 
> Thanks.


Yep suggest try Batz, theres a post above somewhere.

Otherwise Masters has the cigweld ones for about 50 bucks with the current discounts.


----------



## peteru

Contamination will easily bring down the FG to unexpected levels.


----------



## 5150

Thanks Crusty and Mr. B.

Batz sent me a PM.


----------



## Coldspace

My Doppelbock went from 1075 down to 1012 This was O2 , plus nice big pitch 2206 yeast. At 10 degrees for couple weeks then slow raise upto 16 3rd week , then down to lagering temps. Crisp as and malty out of my hydro samples . It's lagering now. I'm sold .


----------



## nic0

Zorco said:


> Give it a go mate with a couple of side by sides.
> 
> When both my glass fermenters free up that's what I want to try!
> 
> Science all the way.
> 
> Edit: true, I've never had a beer get under 1014 from that OG...


Neither have i and i have never have one ferment out so quick, it caught me by surprise, will continue with the air pump for now. The best i normally get is around 1008-12 keep in mind i am still only doing kits as i don't have the time for AG just yet. I am very keen to see your results Zorco when you get time.


----------



## MHB

SBOB said:


> not sure how 'that proves it'.. you've simply illustrated that yeast works . You've made no details on your pitching rate, the yeast etc etc, which are all parts of fermentation. Also, unless you also did some o2 based ferments you have no idea if either has a better flavour or attenuation..
> 
> 
> im also not sure a pale ale with a SG of 1.060 and a FG of 1.003 is an expected result?? thats a very low FG


Yep its around 95% apparent attenuation, I would if it weren't a saison or similar yeast be very suspicious that you had a wild yeast in there to.
Or you need to brush-up on how to use an hydrometer.


----------



## nic0

Crusty said:


> You can achieve great results with air but not the same result as using pressurized O2.
> You simply cannot dissolve as high a concentration of oxygen using air & it's scientifically proven.
> It's the pinnacle of wort aeration & you won't see any commercial breweries using an air pump to dissolve O2.
> Not knocking your process or affordability at all, just sticking with the facts.


Hi Crusty i am just posting my observations, i agree with your post and there is no way a simple air pump would work on a commercial scale but on a 21lt batch of homebrew it has helped and it has caught me buy surprise as it overshot the FG but it will make a good session beer. I am not knocking O2 and i agree that it has its place and i will be following this thread. I already had the air pump and the carb stone so it has cost me nothing to have a crack and i am happy with the result so i will continue with it, if anyone wants to try this you need a carb stone. I followed the same process that i always have and it was just a coopers Australian Pale Ale tin with the coopers yeast.


----------



## SBOB

nic0 said:


> . I followed the same process that i always have and it was just a coopers Australian Pale Ale tin with the coopers yeast.


so a K&K coopers APA tin, with coopers yeast, made to 21L and you have
SG - 1.060
FG - 1.003
Calculated ABV - 7.48%
Apparent Attenuation - 95%

I'm going to go out on a limb (and side with MHB) and say one of those gravity numbers is wrong


----------



## Droopy Brew

I would say both are wrong unless a shitload of dex or DME was also added to get 1.06. And then yes 1.003 is not achievable IMO without significant contribution from an undesirable microbe.

How does it taste nic0?


----------



## manticle

Was it coopers kit or coopers recultured?

1003 is still super low but coopers recultured in my experience is a beast and not far off what saison yeasts can do.


----------



## Adr_0

I haven't brewed since May 29th (toddler + commissioning an LNG plant + re-plumbing brewery) and I'm only a couple of weeks away from brewing. 

Planning a brown ale... 
No, a bock... 
No, a wheat beer for summer...
Now a saison... 

I hate brewing.


----------



## nic0

I only use raw sugar in my brews and have done since mid 2002, I don’t like the flavour dex adds to my beer. I have tried brew enhancers but I am not a fan of dex so I keep going back to the raw sugar. I normally only add 1kg and I remember thinking the the OG reading of 1060 was a bit odd so I took a second sample to confirm it. I had one 2kg bag of raw sugar from costco in the pantry which i normally use for ginger beer, and it’s no longer there so I must of grabbed the 2kg bag by mistake which would explain the higher OG. So this beer is not like my normal brews….



Droopy Brew said:


> I would say both are wrong unless a shitload of dex or DME was also added to get 1.06. And then yes 1.003 is not achievable IMO without significant contribution from an undesirable microbe.
> 
> How does it taste nic0?



The beer is very clear, smooth and a bit thiner than normal, it lacks a bit of flavour. It smelts normal, yeast cake appeared the same as my other brews so I don’t think anything got to it. I sanitise everything with sodium percarbonate and sterilise with Oxonia Active.

I have racked the beer to free up my fermenter and will leave it for a week or two so if anything has got to it should show up before I keg it.

I will have another crack with a Coopers Draught can and a kilo of Aldi Raw sugar with the carb stone and air pump and see how it goes but I should probably add an air filter. Normally my beers take 2 sometimes 3 weeks to ferment out and clear up.

From what I have read if I run the pump with the carb stone for 20 mintues into wort at 20 degrees (which it what I have done) I should be able to achive approximatley 8ppm of dissolved oxygen in the wort. With an O2 system you should be able to achive the same or higher in a matter of seconds.


----------



## Zorco

Adr_0 said:


> I haven't brewed since May 29th (toddler + commissioning an LNG plant + re-plumbing brewery) and I'm only a couple of weeks away from brewing.
> 
> Planning a brown ale...
> No, a bock...
> No, a wheat beer for summer...
> Now a saison...
> 
> I hate brewing.


Brew beer using LNG and have toddler as brewmaster assistant?


----------



## nic0

SBOB said:


> so a K&K coopers APA tin, with coopers yeast, made to 21L and you have
> SG - 1.060
> FG - 1.003
> Calculated ABV - 7.48%
> Apparent Attenuation - 95%
> 
> I'm going to go out on a limb (and side with MHB) and say one of those gravity numbers is wrong


I double checked them, maybe my hydrometer is up the shit, i did buy it back in 2002.




manticle said:


> Was it coopers kit or coopers recultured?
> 
> 1003 is still super low but coopers recultured in my experience is a beast and not far off what saison yeasts can do.


It was just the cooper kit yeast but it had an INT at the end of the number which i haven't seen before. I know the coopers kit yeast has had a bad rap and even i went off it for a while but i think is has improved. The kit was recent (maybe that's why the yeast is good) as the local BigW now has a very high turn over of Coopers cans.

Anyway i don't what to hijack this thread so back to the O2.


----------



## big78sam

I got my O2 stuff delivered from craftbrewer today so am all set to go.
First batch will be this weekend. Either a pilsener or smurto's TTLL clone. Can't wait.


----------



## Rocker1986

My Bo Pils that I used the oxygen on for the first time finally got off its arse this morning and began showing visible signs of fermentation. This is not unusual in my experience with Wy2001 yeast though. The real interest for me is how long the fermentation itself actually takes and how the beer tastes compared to previous batches with no oxygenation other than the transfer from the cube. I'll grab a sample on Friday and see where it's at.


----------



## Stouter

Used my magic oxy wand for the first time today on a Stout AG wort. S.G 1053 and expected F.G of 1012. Very keen to see/taste the final results.
I haven't got a standard brew I can compare without the oxy for a side by side on yet.


----------



## Mr B

OMG Mr B!! What is that thing?

Well darling, its really a money, time, and back saving device. Its quite revolutionary really, I've spent an awful lot of time researching it whilst you have been watching those rubbish shows on television.

Really? It look kind of.......industrial.......

Well, yes it does, but its not about the look at all.....nope..... definitely not about that...sitting in my brew shed........looking all lovely......

Brew shed?

Yes, the brew shed

So its 'beer stuff' is it?

Yeeees, its beer stuff...

How much was it!?

Well, its not really about the cost, its about making better beer....

Better beer?

Yes, now I know that its absolutely almost positively awesome, but a few little tweaks......

How much was it!

Apart from the deposit, it was really qui......

OMG Mr B!! ITS PRETTY FARKIN AWESOME YOU FNIALLY GOT THERE!!!!


----------



## Mr B

Just used it, absolute gold. Shaking cubes is a thing of the past. Better oxygen levels should be great, looking forward to seeing how it goes. At the least, it will help with hangovers....


----------



## Zorco

Great photo. Industrial excellence.


----------



## Killer Brew

Rocker1986 said:


> My Bo Pils that I used the oxygen on for the first time finally got off its arse this morning and began showing visible signs of fermentation. This is not unusual in my experience with Wy2001 yeast though. The real interest for me is how long the fermentation itself actually takes and how the beer tastes compared to previous batches with no oxygenation other than the transfer from the cube. I'll grab a sample on Friday and see where it's at.


Will be interested to hear your fermentation timings. I don't have O2 yet but tried out the carb stone for the first time in a Pils. Pitched 4 days ago now and it has dropped from 1061 to 1018. Am a bit worried it could be a bit slow and I end up with diacetyl again. Hope to have O2 up and running for my next brew though.


----------



## Killer Brew

Just had a read through Braukeiser on lagers and am feeling reassured all is on track. In other news I might get to the big green shed today to grab my core gas O2. Don't think I will get the chance to brew again until next weekend though.


----------



## manticle

OT but if you do end up with diacetyl or other vdk, I've found krausening effective at removal in the past.


----------



## Adr_0

manticle said:


> OT but if you do end up with diacetyl or other vdk, I've found krausening effective at removal in the past.


Is there nothing fresh, healthy yeast can't do?


----------



## Rocker1986

My Bo Pils is fermenting at about the same rate as they did in batches without an O2 injection. Maybe next time I'll bubble it into it for longer. Only went for about a minute this time I think. The sample I took yesterday to check progress smelt bloody nice though.


----------



## Batz

Anyone interested in this, I once had it installed after my chiller. Wort travels over the air-stone then into your fermenter.
All stainless but has been stored several years so will need a wire brush up.
The air-stone is .05 so best with 02 set-up, aquarium pump may struggle.

Make me an offer via PM.

Batz


----------



## Coldspace

Rocker1986 said:


> My Bo Pils is fermenting at about the same rate as they did in batches without an O2 injection. Maybe next time I'll bubble it into it for longer. Only went for about a minute this time I think. The sample I took yesterday to check progress smelt bloody nice though.


I've found 1 min 20 secs for ales at 19 pitch, and 2.5 ltrs a minute, then my lagers at 2 mins at 9 degree pitch. All fermented out maybe only couple of days quicker, but all have been 2-3 points lower and quality so much better, especially my helles I just did. It's turned awesome out of my kegmenter and through the filter. I've just crushed another 9 kg of grain tonight to double batch my grainfather tommoz to pitch onto my yeast cake which is still sitting under pressure in my kegmenter from late last week. Chill cubes to 8 , dump into kegmenter, O2 , another 45 ltrs of helles on the way.

Doesn't getting better than this, especially after smashing a few tonight.


----------



## Rocker1986

I'll give that a go next batch then, cheers mate. I couldn't get the cube down as low as I wanted it either, only got it to 20C, which isn't a disaster but I wanted it around 10C; maybe next time I'll throw it in the fridge the night before instead. This time of year they obviously don't chill down as low in the ambient as they do in the cooler months.


----------



## MHB

Helles can be delicious, tasted Les (the wheaty ones) Helles at the club last Friday, bloody good, dangerously so if you are driving.
Sounds like a fair investment on your O2 system, at 9oC you finished faster, got better attenuation and the beer tastes better.
Be interesting to see how it responds to the bigger yeast cake/pitch.
Mark


----------



## Coldspace

MHB said:


> Helles can be delicious, tasted Les (the wheaty ones) Helles at the club last Friday, bloody good, dangerously so if you are driving.
> Sounds like a fair investment on your O2 system, at 9oC you finished faster, got better attenuation and the beer tastes better.
> Be interesting to see how it responds to the bigger yeast cake/pitch.
> Mark


Yeah, the helles is dangerously sensational, 4 schooners can disappear pretty fast....

I pitched a lot of starter yeast, 3 x 3 ltrs all decanted down of course, chilled to 9 degrees, then set controller to 12. It took over night to rise, to 12, then approx 36 hr lag then away she went at approx 12-13 psi. For 44 ltr batch.

Pitched latest batch last night same, chilled to 9, I brewed in morning, filled cubes, dumped them into my swimming pool, they dropped to pool temp in about 2 hrs, then into one of my Chesties which took 6 hrs to pull em down to 9. Siphoned into the kegmenter which was sitting at 9, O2 ,set to 12. Tonight (24 hrs) it well away at 13 psi.

Prob be done in 7 days, then cc for a week, then pressure transfer thru my filter into my 2 cornies.

I won't reuse the cake again, prob be to big after 2 runs plus I have another batch and trying diff yeast.

Cheers


----------



## Phoney

Q:

Approx how many litres per minute does the brewman system spew out with the tap fully on? It froths over like crazy and I'm wondering if I should dial it back a notch.


----------



## Liam_snorkel

yeah dial it back, any bubbles that reach the surface are not making it into the wort


----------



## Brewman_

Phoney said:


> Q:
> 
> Approx how many litres per minute does the brewman system spew out with the tap fully on? It froths over like crazy and I'm wondering if I should dial it back a notch.


Yes dial it back. As Liam_snorkel said, if it is bubbling out your wasting the O2.
As long as you can just see the bubbles on the surface then that is the right rate.


----------



## Adr_0

Make sure to breathe on the surface of the wort while you're carefully watching. Preferably drip some sweat in as well, and peel in some ass-crack grime.


----------



## Zorco

Adr_0 said:


> Make sure to breathe on the surface of the wort while you're carefully watching. Preferably drip some sweat in as well, and peel in some ass-crack grime.


You a-working 16 hours days again mate? I highly suggest the kegmenter option. Pressurise O2 into the headspace and shake shake shake. no watching, no exposure, no ass grime. And no waste. I removed the spunding valve and vented so I could smell the ferment 3 days in ---- unreal! delicious!. 

I'm onto a good thing with my new equipment...


----------



## Rocker1986

Brewman_ said:


> Yes dial it back. As Liam_snorkel said, if it is bubbling out your wasting the O2.
> As long as you can just see the bubbles on the surface then that is the right rate.


I think this might be what I did wrong on my first attempt too. I'll dial it back for the next batch and see what happens.

Does it matter if the stone itself sits in only one spot in the FV or should it be moved around in the wort for maximum effectiveness?


----------



## MHB

You need to stir the stone around - if it makes you feel better.
If the stone is near the bottom, the rising bubbles will create quite a lot of mixing, so no need to move it around.
Mark


----------



## Radshoes

nic0 said:


> I only use raw sugar in my brews and have done since mid 2002, I don’t like the flavour dex adds to my beer. I have tried brew enhancers but I am not a fan of dex so I keep going back to the raw sugar. I normally only add 1kg and I remember thinking the the OG reading of 1060 was a bit odd so I took a second sample to confirm it. I had one 2kg bag of raw sugar from costco in the pantry which i normally use for ginger beer, and it’s no longer there so I must of grabbed the 2kg bag by mistake which would explain the higher OG. So this beer is not like my normal brews….
> 
> 
> 
> The beer is very clear, smooth and a bit thiner than normal, it lacks a bit of flavour. It smelts normal, yeast cake appeared the same as my other brews so I don’t think anything got to it. I sanitise everything with sodium percarbonate and sterilise with Oxonia Active.
> 
> I have racked the beer to free up my fermenter and will leave it for a week or two so if anything has got to it should show up before I keg it.
> 
> I will have another crack with a Coopers Draught can and a kilo of Aldi Raw sugar with the carb stone and air pump and see how it goes but I should probably add an air filter. Normally my beers take 2 sometimes 3 weeks to ferment out and clear up.
> 
> From what I have read if I run the pump with the carb stone for 20 mintues into wort at 20 degrees (which it what I have done) I should be able to achive approximatley 8ppm of dissolved oxygen in the wort. With an O2 system you should be able to achive the same or higher in a matter of seconds.



Sorry, I am just catching up here. You do know that dex doesn't actually add flavour to beer yeah?


----------



## Adr_0

Radshoes said:


> Sorry, I am just catching up here. You do know that dex doesn't actually add flavour to beer yeah?


I think he means he doesn't like the flavour dextrose doesn't add.


----------



## technobabble66

Maybe if he's adding a high %-age of sugar, the yeast struggles with a lack of nutrients in the dex, but the trace nutrients of the raw sugar helps prevent their health from deteriorating too much? So maybe the "flavour dex adds" is from the resulting poor yeast health, rather than the dex itself. Just trying to guess what he could be talking about.


----------



## Rocker1986

MHB said:


> You need to stir the stone around - if it makes you feel better.
> If the stone is near the bottom, the rising bubbles will create quite a lot of mixing, so no need to move it around.
> Mark


Thanks mate. I'm waiting for CB to get those oxywands back in stock; in the meantime I just have a stone on the end of a piece of gas line so it's not easy to move it around in the FV.


----------



## Stouter

Brewman_ said:


> Yes dial it back. As Liam_snorkel said, if it is bubbling out your wasting the O2.
> As long as you can just see the bubbles on the surface then that is the right rate.


Gee I funked that up!
The first one I did had lots of foam as I'd poured from the cube into the fermenter so it was hard to notice what was going on. The second one I did in the cube before transferring and thought it was going great guns with all the foam bubbling up. Slow and steady wins the race eh?!


----------



## Rocker1986

I just took a first FG sample from my Bo Pils, sitting about 1.011 so may have a point or two more to drop but it's tasting fantastic and good aroma too. I can't detect any diacetyl either. I may have mucked up the oxygenation a bit but it's still turned out well even though the fermentation speed didn't really change. Things I'll do differently on the next lager are to put the cube in the fridge the night before pitching day so it comes down lower than bloody 20C, and bubble the oxygen in more slowly and probably for a bit longer too. For ales I'll do my usual routine of chilling the cube for a few hours to drop it to around 20C, and also slower O2 bubbling.

I guess it's one of those things that takes a bit of working out to get the best results but I'm looking forward to fine tuning the process over the next few batches. B)


----------



## Coodgee

is this serious enough? 





This is for those of us who hate running out of gas and/or need to compensate for a tiny dick. 

I suppose there is no disadvantage to running plenty of O2 into the wort if you have a large supply? The only negative is wastage? 

p.s. thanks to batz for the reg, what a bloody top bloke!


----------



## Rocker1986

That's pretty much exactly the same as my set up


----------



## MHB

Rocker1986 said:


> Thanks mate. I'm waiting for CB to get those oxywands back in stock; in the meantime I just have a stone on the end of a piece of gas line so it's not easy to move it around in the FV.


Brewman has a pretty good wand in stock.
They are stainless and the hooked end makes them pretty handy.


Mark


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Stouter said:


> The second one I did in the cube before transferring and thought it was going great guns with all the foam bubbling up. Slow and steady wins the race eh?!


wouldn't you knock some of the O2 out of suspension during the transfer? Makes more sense to transfer it gently into fermenter first, then gas it up.


----------



## rude

Good set up what about the SS wand ?


----------



## Batz

Coodgee said:


> is this serious enough?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ox.jpg
> 
> This is for those of us who hate running out of gas and/or need to compensate for a tiny dick.
> 
> I suppose there is no disadvantage to running plenty of O2 into the wort if you have a large supply? The only negative is wastage?
> 
> p.s. thanks to batz for the reg, what a bloody top bloke!


Glad to help you out mate.


----------



## Aus_Rider_22

MHB said:


> Brewman has a pretty good wand in stock.
> They are stainless and the hooked end makes them pretty handy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aeration_wand.jpg
> Mark


Hi Mark

Wish I have of got that included in my aeration kit from you! Just a question about your air stone, do you play on offering the 0.5 size? Thanks mate!


----------



## MHB

Mate - I am not a retailer any more, Steve (Brewman) took over some of my business a couple of years ago now.
The Wand is fairly new, so they weren't available when you brought your system.
As to the old 2um V 0.5um debate, well I always recommended the 2um, there is next to no difference between the two in terms of how long it takes to aerate the wort, the size of the bubbles, nor how much O2 you use. The big but being that the 0.5um stones are very easy to block up and very hard to clean. Even just running your thumb over the surface can block it up. The 2um stones can be soaked in steriliser and seem to last a lot longer.

If you want a 0.5um stone or a wand, I would suggest asking Steve or one of the other retailers.
Mark


----------



## Aus_Rider_22

MHB said:


> Mate - I am not a retailer any more, Steve (Brewman) took over some of my business a couple of years ago now.
> The Wand is fairly new, so they weren't available when you brought your system.
> As to the old 2um V 0.5um debate, well I always recommended the 2um, there is next to no difference between the two in terms of how long it takes to aerate the wort, the size of the bubbles, nor how much O2 you use. The big but being that the 0.5um stones are very easy to block up and very hard to clean. Even just running your thumb over the surface can block it up. The 2um stones can be soaked in steriliser and seem to last a lot longer.
> 
> If you want a 0.5um stone or a wand, I would suggest asking Steve or one of the other retailers.
> Mark


Thanks for that info. Sorry about the confusion! I had wondered why I was talking to a "Steve" when I did my order. Cheers Mark! Will stick with the 2um stone as provided!


----------



## Coldspace

Rocker1986 said:


> Thanks mate. I'm waiting for CB to get those oxywands back in stock; in the meantime I just have a stone on the end of a piece of gas line so it's not easy to move it around in the FV.


Hey mate , all I do with my ghetto oxy set up, if you have a long handle mash paddle, I've got a stainless one, small zippy tie stone to end, starsan it all. Then it will keep the stone at the bottom while you can slowly stir it at the same time. Costs me about 2 cents for a zippy but use them at work lol.
Cheers


----------



## Coldspace

Coodgee said:


> is this serious enough?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ox.jpg
> 
> This is for those of us who hate running out of gas and/or need to compensate for a tiny dick.
> 
> I suppose there is no disadvantage to running plenty of O2 into the wort if you have a large supply? The only negative is wastage?
> 
> p.s. thanks to batz for the reg, what a bloody top bloke!


In my research, but I'm sure MHB or someone else with a lot more experience will chime in,

But yes, you can over do it, but you prob will need to purge a fair bit. I just keep it simple, 1.20 secs for ales, 2 mins for lagers whilst slowly stirring . Seems to be working for me and my mates.

Cheers


----------



## Rocker1986

Coldspace said:


> Hey mate , all I do with my ghetto oxy set up, if you have a long handle mash paddle, I've got a stainless one, small zippy tie stone to end, starsan it all. Then it will keep the stone at the bottom while you can slowly stir it at the same time. Costs me about 2 cents for a zippy but use them at work lol.
> Cheers


I had seen that suggested somewhere actually, probably on this thread. The stone has no trouble staying on the bottom it's just with the soft, bendy hose it doesn't move much if at all. I do have a stainless mash paddle too so I'll keep it in mind. If CB takes forever to get those things back in stock I might just go with the one Mark linked to above.


----------



## Mr B

Rocker1986 said:


> I had seen that suggested somewhere actually, probably on this thread. The stone has no trouble staying on the bottom it's just with the soft, bendy hose it doesn't move much if at all. I do have a stainless mash paddle too so I'll keep it in mind. If CB takes forever to get those things back in stock I might just go with the one Mark linked to above.


You could put it on some gas line - would give a bit of stiffness to move wort around?


----------



## Coodgee

probably better to attach it to something like a stainless mash paddle with zip ties than use a 'wand" type tube. It will be harder to clean the tube because you would have to clean the inside as well as the outside. with the mash paddle you just have to clean the outside


----------



## MHB

There is really no chance of over Oxygenating unless your wort is very cold this table is a bit of an industry standard.


View attachment Oxygen Solubility 2.pdf

As you can see at Ale pitching temperatures in a 12% wort (1.048) you will only get about 7.4ppm of DO at 20oC. At Lager pitching temperatures (say around 10oC) 9.3ppm.
If you think you may have overdone it a bit, just wait for a couple of minutes and it will fall back to the solubility/partial pressure limits.
Mark


----------



## Rocker1986

Coodgee said:


> probably better to attach it to something like a stainless mash paddle with zip ties than use a 'wand" type tube. It will be harder to clean the tube because you would have to clean the inside as well as the outside. with the mash paddle you just have to clean the outside


You just leave the gas running the whole time. Run it while giving it the clean/sanitise then drop it into the wort for a minute or two then remove it and leave it running while rinsing it all off. This way it stops shit from getting inside the stone/line.


----------



## Tony121

Rocker1986 said:


> You just leave the gas running the whole time. Run it while giving it the clean/sanitise then drop it into the wort for a minute or two then remove it and leave it running while rinsing it all off. This way it stops shit from getting inside the stone/line.


I assume you boil the stone before first use then use the above method?


----------



## Tahoose

First go with O2, 1 x pack of BRY-97 into a 1:045 wort. 

Fully fermented in 5 days. Will wait to see how this one tastes.


----------



## nic0

technobabble66 said:


> Maybe if he's adding a high %-age of sugar, the yeast struggles with a lack of nutrients in the dex, but the trace nutrients of the raw sugar helps prevent their health from deteriorating too much? So maybe the "flavour dex adds" is from the resulting poor yeast health, rather than the dex itself. Just trying to guess what he could be talking about.


Techobabble66 has nailed it. When i started out i found my beer had a slight cidery taste and it was probably a combination of the coopers yeast and my process at the time. I could detect the cidery flavour even when i only used 500g. I like to keep my beers around the 5% mark. My process is alot better now and is about to get alot better with the addition of a fermentation fridge.


----------



## dblunn

I used my wand for the first time last night, they are much better than the stone on the end of plastic hose that wants to curl up like a pig's tail and sit on the surface. I keep it in a tube of 18mm polypipe with a plug in one end (Bunnings gardening section) the HEPA filter kind of suspends it there and covers the open end and an elastic band holds the rest of the hose and reg disconnect neatly in one package. I think the wand was the one Rocker had his eye on at CB and I beat him to it, sorry mate.


----------



## Adr_0

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.hach.com/asset-get.download.jsa%3Fid%3D50544340454&ved=0ahUKEwi7t_mqlMDQAhVHNJQKHVFVAboQFgg3MAU&usg=AFQjCNGaBa9WAeDQBjUBNTVaeYWEyE0lkg&sig2=hk_4K_Zy4HAlqhlDjdMT3w

Does that work? Interesting comment on whatiis basically over-aerating - ie removing aromatic compounds from the wort. I understand this is more prevalent at higher temperatures, but may still be an issue. 

This is also a good read. The bit on air bubbles in pipes is why I use vertical hard plumbing, for pump protection too:
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.ibdlearningzone.org.uk/article/show/pdf/494/&ved=0ahUKEwj9rvCwlcDQAhVJm5QKHb0JCjUQFgg5MAk&usg=AFQjCNHKwT3_1RUeYkQ5htDJP9rw_qxwEA&sig2=4wR-vS51d0KrOrKXum2uNQ


----------



## 5150

Thanks Batz, the regulator arrived today. Looks awesome. My best score on AHB so far.

Thaks again.


----------



## Batz

Too easy mate, glad I could help you out.

Batz


----------



## SBOB

another + for healthy yeast + o2 (in that order)

WLP002 took my pale ale 1.050 pale ale down to Beersmith's expected FG in under 3 days...


----------



## Mr B

I have two batches going with Nottingham.

The first still has krausen after a week and a half, and was pitched without O2.

The second I used O2, and has done and dropped krausen in about three days. Wierded me out when I had a peek, I had to check to see if there was a yeast cake on the bottom..

I assume that oxygen is the factor.


----------



## Coldspace

Great to see some success stories coming out, my brews are into another league now I'm using O2 .
Got to still have all other bases covered before going down this pathway.

Cheers


----------



## Coldspace

MHB said:


> Helles can be delicious, tasted Les (the wheaty ones) Helles at the club last Friday, bloody good, dangerously so if you are driving.
> Sounds like a fair investment on your O2 system, at 9oC you finished faster, got better attenuation and the beer tastes better.
> Be interesting to see how it responds to the bigger yeast cake/pitch.
> Mark


Well it's early days but promising so far , I'll report. 
Latest batch of helles, did double batch in gf , grav was a bit lower than first, batch last month due to my El Crapo mill from ebay seizing up and not crushing properly, I've since bought a mashmaster mini fluted roller mill today to get a more consistant crush , I ended up siphoning 44 ltrs at 1044 straight onto the yeast cake of 34/70 in my kegmenter that was left at 10 degrees and under pressure from a week ago after first batch. Brewed the wort on Sunday morning, chilled to 10, siphoned into kegmenter,Sunday night, 02 for 2 minutes the. Sealed up and set temp to 12.
Was away and hissing good Monday night, so 24 hrs lag compared to 36 for first batch that only used 3 x 3 ltr decanted starters.
Today, 3 days into full action, hissing almost gone, I've adjusted temp to 14, will rise this to 17 by Sunday so 1 week from pitch to d-rest.
Tested grav, tonight, down to 1010, still got another few points I recon by Sunday with temp rise.

Now the big one, tasted it after hydro test, was slightly carbed and 12 degrees, clean as a whistle , still cloudy but it's still going. I'm really happy with this lager. 1 week, 1 week of cc, then pressure transfer through my filter into cornies, 2 weeks and drinking a quality clean lager, yeah ha....

Cheers


----------



## rude

nic0 said:


> Techobabble66 has nailed it. When i started out i found my beer had a slight cidery taste and it was probably a combination of the coopers yeast and my process at the time. I could detect the cidery flavour even when i only used 500g. I like to keep my beers around the 5% mark. My process is alot better now and is about to get alot better with the addition of a fermentation fridge.


Cidery taste sounds like simple sugars to me malt all the way I say

Once you do that yes fridge

Then the right number of yeast cells for pitching 

Then fu*k I forget O2 maybe

Wait on cleaning sanitising h34r:


----------



## 2much2spend

Thought I would share pic's of my new toy! Planning a funky IPA next week I'll keep you all posted


----------



## Mardoo

Ooooo, nice. I didn't know they made one of those. (Yes I know there are others.)


----------



## 2much2spend

Mardoo said:


> Ooooo, nice. I didn't know they made one of those. (Yes I know there are others.)


 yeah, I looked at some of the local one's and even they are really good kits, this suited my setup the best.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

Liam_snorkel said:


> wouldn't you knock some of the O2 out of suspension during the transfer? Makes more sense to transfer it gently into fermenter first, then gas it up.


No, it's not suspended, it's dissolved. You can strip dissolved gas by sparging but you won't "knock it out" during transfer unless it's significantly above the equilibrium concentration for the vapour pressure of the gas involved (which it isn't).


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Good to know, thanks LC. So tipping the oxygenated wort from cube to fermenter which agitates it and causes foaming isn't going to 'undo' it significantly?


----------



## Batz

SBOB said:


> another + for healthy yeast + o2 (in that order)
> 
> WLP002 took my pale ale 1.050 pale ale down to Beersmith's expected FG in under 3 days...



I have done similar with WLP002, I haven't taken a reading yet but it looks like it's all over in three days.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

Liam_snorkel said:


> tipping the oxygenated wort from cube to fermenter which agitates it and causes foaming isn't going to 'undo' it significantly?


The activity will move the [O2] towards the equilibium point: how far it moves will depend on how much you do and how far away from equilibrium it was. Since the suggested [O2] levels for wort aren't very far away from the equilibium point at pitching temperatures, it shouldn't move much.


----------



## JDW81

Just oxygenated my first 2 batches yesterday (APA and a hefe). I only ended up getting a small bernzomatic cyclinder and brass regulatar (already had a stone and hose), but no issues with getting it all happening,

Followed my standard pitching procedure (sanitise then pour vigorously from the cube) followed by 90 seconds of O2 to achieve a a surface turn-over similar to a slow boil. Pitched with 3068 and 1272 from nice healthy starters.

I've got 2 more identical batches sitting in cubes to ferment in a week or two, and will up the O2 to 2 minutes and see if there is a discernible difference between the two with a side-by-side tasting.

JD


----------



## stewy

Might be a dumb question but what are the guidelines with safe storage of O2 bottles, specifically temperature range?
Are they safe in temps of up to 35C? My garage gets warm in summer.


----------



## JDW81

stewy said:


> Might be a dumb question but what are the guidelines with safe storage of O2 bottles, specifically temperature range?
> Are they safe in temps of up to 35C? My garage gets warm in summer.


I don't know what the recommendations are, but I've worked in numerous hospitals where the O2 bottles get delivered and sit in the loading bay for hours in the middle of summer. Haven't heard of any explosions from that yet.

JD


----------



## pseudonym

For those using the Cigweld regulators, what barb/nipple are you all using to connect the hose? Is it one of the Cigweld hose connectors (like this one - https://www.bunnings.com.au/cigweld-5-8-18unf-right-hand-gas-hose-fitting_p5910337) or some other kind of barb fitting? 

Also, in case anyone else is thinking of buying a Cigweld from bunnings, make sure you open the box to check what reg is inside before you take it away. It seems all the boxes display an oxygen regulator on the front, even if it is an acetylene or lpg reg inside. Easy to exchange once the mistake is realized, but you can avoid a repeat trip by checking first!


----------



## Killer Brew

stewy said:


> Might be a dumb question but what are the guidelines with safe storage of O2 bottles, specifically temperature range?
> Are they safe in temps of up to 35C? My garage gets warm in summer.


No such thing as a dumb question when it comes to safety.

In saying that I'm unaware of any maximum temp but I would suspect direct sunlight would be more of a concern


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

stewy said:


> Might be a dumb question but what are the guidelines with safe storage of O2 bottles, specifically temperature range?
> Are they safe in temps of up to 35C? My garage gets warm in summer.


BOC gives a maximal safe storage temp of 65 oC in its cylinder safety guide


----------



## manticle

So don't put it in the oven, leave it inside a car or place in a bowl of very hot water.

I jest but oxygen is nasty so care, take, you, all, lots.


----------



## MHB

Safety First always.
Most of the small disposable bottles I have seen are at much lower pressure (11mPa) than commercial refillable bottles (20mPa), tradeoff being they are a lot thinner.
Just be sensible OK.
Mark


----------



## Stouter

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> The activity will move the [O2] towards the equilibium point: how far it moves will depend on how much you do and how far away from equilibrium it was. Since the suggested [O2] levels for wort aren't very far away from the equilibium point at pitching temperatures, it shouldn't move much.


This is good to know. The first time I tried I had already tipped the wort from the cube into the F.V and created lots of foam so I thought for the second time I would oxygenate in the cube first so I could judge the surface bubbling. Otherwise I suppose I could transfer from cube to F.V with a tube.


----------



## Rocker1986

Transferring from the cube to the FV with a tube was on my list of ideas too, but I think until I get new cubes that these bloody taps actually fit properly, I'll just try to tip the wort in as gently as possible. If it foams up out of the FV with the oxygen injection so be it, can always wipe it clean. Too much faffing around and infection risk for my liking to remove the bung and put a tap in then let the break settle out in the cube again before transfer.


----------



## Mr B

pseudonym said:


> For those using the Cigweld regulators, what barb/nipple are you all using to connect the hose? Is it one of the Cigweld hose connectors (like this one - https://www.bunnings.com.au/cigweld-5-8-18unf-right-hand-gas-hose-fitting_p5910337) or some other kind of barb fitting?
> 
> Also, in case anyone else is thinking of buying a Cigweld from bunnings, make sure you open the box to check what reg is inside before you take it away. It seems all the boxes display an oxygen regulator on the front, even if it is an acetylene or lpg reg inside. Easy to exchange once the mistake is realized, but you can avoid a repeat trip by checking first!


Yes, I used one of these. Others appear to have a traditional barbed fitting.

The collar bit is to fix larger than you will probably use oxy/welding hose, so I didnt use it. I got some blue oxygen hose and also food grade clear hose, but the proper oxy hose stinks of rubber.

I havent sprayed to test for small leaks due to the thread, but not too worried as its a short duration use.


----------



## kaiserben

Is it okay to dispose of empty O2 cylinders in the regular household garbage bin?


----------



## manticle

Mr B said:


> Yes, I used one of these. Others appear to have a traditional barbed fitting.
> 
> The collar bit is to fix larger than you will probably use oxy/welding hose, so I didnt use it. I got some blue oxygen hose and also food grade clear hose, but the proper oxy hose stinks of rubber.
> 
> I havent sprayed to test for small leaks due to the thread, but not too worried as its a short duration use.


What's the food grade stuff made from?


----------



## Rocker1986

Oxywands were back in stock at CB this morning so I snapped one up and will give it a go on my next batch to go in after the current one is kegged and bottled. Should be a little easier than trying to control a hose.


----------



## Meddo

Rocker1986 said:


> Oxywands were back in stock at CB this morning so I snapped one up and will give it a go on my next batch to go in after the current one is kegged and bottled. Should be a little easier than trying to control a hose.


Much easier with the wand, I did one process with the hose only before I rushed out to order a wand and very glad I did.


----------



## Brewnicorn

Did my first brew with the oxy set up last weekend. I wish I'd sprung the extra $10 for the wand over the regular tube. Not inconvenient but but loose with the directions. Also handy to know where that stainless aerator is in a plastic fermenter. 
Where's the best place to grab one? Stainless or even general rigid acrylic tubes from?


----------



## Mardoo

Stainless Racking tubes and old dip tubes work well.


----------



## Coodgee

well my first batch that incorporated oxygen into the process was a german pils. I pitched an estimated 750B cells which was far in excess of the 450B needed. Gave a good 2 minutes of oxygen - the surface had about 3 inches of thick, sticky froth when I was done. I pitched at 9 degrees and kept the temp between 9.2 and 9.5. The Krausen dropped in 4 days and after 48 hours D-rest it was down from 1050 to 1011. So 7 days to FG isn't too bad for a lager.


----------



## Liam_snorkel

which lager strain Coodgee? I may need a quick turnaround for the BABBs lager comp in Jan


----------



## Coodgee

Liam_snorkel said:


> which lager strain Coodgee? I may need a quick turnaround for the BABBs lager comp in Jan



Not sure i should tell you, this one is for the jan babbs comp! Nah wyeast2042 danish lager. I made a 3L starter and stepped up a third of the slurry into another 3L. So 750 billion cells all up


----------



## Liam_snorkel

cheers thanks


----------



## Coodgee

Liam_snorkel said:


> cheers thanks


Let's meet at babbs. Would be good to connect with other ahb members


----------



## Rocker1986

I pitched my Citra pale ale earlier today and used the wand with the O2 tank to inject some into it. This was a lot easier than the stone in the end of the length of hose. This time I dialled back the pressure to just a gentle flow of lots of tiny bubbles, and ran it for about 2 minutes into 19/20C wort, pitched yeast (US-05) and stuck it in the fridge set to 18C.

I won't be home over the weekend so I won't be able to see what the lag time ends up being but I will be back on Monday to take an SG reading and see how fast it has fermented. Hopefully will be pretty close to FG (1.011 predicted). OG is 1.048.


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Pitched 1 litre starter (decanted) of coopers yeast into 1.042 wort at 18deg on Tuesday night, 2mins of O2. 
Visible activity on Wednesday morning. 
Checked gravity on Thursday morning, down to 1.016
This morning (Friday) morning krausen had dropped so cranked the temp to 22. Will check gravity tonight.
I could be drinking this beer by Sunday


----------



## Coodgee

I put down a 1035 ale with a litre of decanted WY1272 American Ale II and 2 minutes of oxy on Tuesday and it was still going this morning with a good krausen. It's going a bit slower because I pitched at 18 but my temp probe is sitting no deeper than 2cm in the wort and when the 02 stirred it up it was down to 17 degrees. Then I forgot to press the power button to lock in the 18 degrees setting on my new stc1000 so when I went to check it later it was at 16 degrees (lucky I checked or would have woken up to 0 degree wort). Took a good 24 hours to get back to 18 degrees. should be clean AF though.


----------



## warra48

Picked up my kit last week from Brewman.
Unfortunately, it's embargoed until Christmas, so it'll be the batch after next which gets the treatment.
Looking forward to not bothering with the drill and paint mixer.


----------



## Tahoose

I'm with you Warra my replacement pump is also out of bounds until xmas.


----------



## Killer Brew

And I'm up and running! Found the overflow pipe from my Grainfather fit snugly over the air stone to weight it down. Gave it a 2 minute burst on an ESB on Tues and it was off and running strongly the next morning. High krausen was subsiding already after 48 hours which is at least 24 hours earlier than I have been getting. Excited to see how this beer will turn out.


----------



## Rocker1986

I checked the SG of my pale ale earlier today, would have been about 72 hours after pitching the yeast and it was sitting around 1.025 down from 1.048. Seems a bit slower than I was expecting, but the krausen was noticeably different. Usually I get a reasonably compacted foam with smallish sized bubbles, this time it's got huge bubbles in it. I raised the STC temp to 22C and it was up to about 20C last I looked.

I did have 14 cold bottles of beer in the brewing fridge when the FV first went in there (no other room for them) so that probably didn't help with the temp being able to stay up at 18C during the initial stages. They still felt quite cold today even. I'll have to calibrate the STC probe again too just to make sure it's still reading properly.

The taste was very nice still, even though it's got around 15 points still to drop. Probably only be another day or two to FG though which is still pretty quick.


----------



## Coodgee

That's pretty good for dry yeast.it's always going to lag. I think your expectations might have been a bit high to expect it done in 72 hours.


----------



## Mr B

manticle said:


> What's the food grade stuff made from?


Sorry Manticle, just saw post.

Dunno exactly, its clear tubing with a string reinforcement inside it. Marked as food grade on the outside.

Was quite lucky, I quizzed the shop people and the fella said the blue oxy stuff all the way, which is fair enough for standard application. I happened to see the clear stuff on another shelf and got a bit 'just in case'.

Lucky I did, as I didnt smell the blue stuff till I got home. Not suitable for purpose at all. Pretty sexy thick hose though.


----------



## Rocker1986

Coodgee said:


> That's pretty good for dry yeast.it's always going to lag. I think your expectations might have been a bit high to expect it done in 72 hours.


The yeast came from a starter, harvested 2nd generation. In any case, I wasn't expecting it to be finished in 72 hours, but maybe a little closer to FG than it was.

My next brew will be another pale ale with the same malt bill but this time using Wy1272 yeast, so it'll be interesting to compare.


----------



## Coldspace

Yeah dry yeast even bigger pitched like 1.5- 2 pkts still takes longer than a nice healthy starter. Still takes my last us05 7-8 days to fg with O2 , used to take 10 to 12 using dried yeast.

Now , I just use a nice big... Starter with my brews and O2 , gets the job done nicely and end products are better.

My last helles took 4 days to fg from 1048 to 1006 at 12 degrees, it amazed me but was so clean and crisp. Was pitched onto a yeast cake I left in my kegmenter from a batch a week earlier of 34/70. Was grain to tap in 12 days, although I pressure transfered through my craft brewer filter to polish it up for family Christmas party yesterday , was a real hit..

I kegged up on Saturday a coopers sparkling ale clone, receipe from Clarke, re cultured up coopers yeast from sparkling ale stubbies, stepped upto a nice 2 ltr starter over 3 days, from 500 ml at 1020 og, to 1 ltr at 1040 to 2 ltr. 
Pitched this at 18, O2 for 90 secs, was done in at 1010 at 4 day mark. This yeast is a beast but in the past always took 6-7 days Cc, for 3 days, filtered on Saturday , is bloody perfect. Crisp , clean and trademark coopers taste..


----------



## Rocker1986

I expect it will be at FG in a couple of days if it keeps fermenting at the rate it has been, which at a guess would be about 10 points every 30 hours or so. That would make it 5 days to hit FG, which is only marginally quicker than it worked with simply dumping the cube in from a height. They've always been done with starters, as I harvest yeast from them, so nothing different there. Anyway I'm not THAT worried about it, as long as the beer tastes good 5 days is fine with me :beerbang:


----------



## Coodgee

Rocker if you're in bris i have a nice healthy cake of 1272 i can share


----------



## Killer Brew

Well now I'm just confused. My first O2 beer, an ESB, appears to have a stuck ferment. After going nuts in the first 48 hours it has now spent the last 4 days sitting at 1020 despite progressively warming it up to 24 degrees and rousing the yeast.

Golden Promise 73%
Munich 21%
Cara Pale 5%
Cara Aroma 1%
Windsor Dried Yeast x 2 packs 

Mashed at 67 degrees for 60 mins
25L batch at OG 1050
Fermented at 18 degrees
Yeast was rehydrated per instructions, pitched at 21 degrees, and then hit with 2.5 mins of O2

What am I missing?


----------



## manticle

All the obvious things checked?
Accuracy of thermometer, hydrometer, refrac calibrated and adjusted for alcohol, etc?


----------



## Killer Brew

Temp probe checked against my thermopen, all good. Didn't cross check my mash temp though as my Grainfather has tended to be spot on. Would be surprised if it was out though as I did check at the sparge stage and the mash out was holding at 75 degrees. Also used the hydro instead of refrac for the last couple of readings to get the most accurate read. This has been calibrated with water.


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Windsor is known for low attenuation. with 67deg mash temp sounds like it might be done at 60%


----------



## Killer Brew

Wow. Ok. Haven't used Windsor before but had a couple of packs leftover from a planned stout that I didn't go ahead with. Going to make for a sweeter beer than I had hoped for.

Edit: have done a quick bit of research on Windsor and Liam looks to be spot on. I'm relieved that this is the cause to be honest as my fervent following of the O2 cult can now continue unabated.


----------



## Liam_snorkel

you could probably finish it off with a healthy pitch of US05 or another clean yeast.
How does it taste?


----------



## Killer Brew

Was just thinking that I could throw in some US-05 or Notto. Bit heavy in the body for mine. Taste wise and to be honest I'm not a great judge of how a beer is going to turn out until it is ready to drink. I'm often surprised when I taste the first glass. Not sure if this is a lack of skill / experience or if my senses are lacking (sinus issues).


----------



## Rocker1986

Coodgee said:


> Rocker if you're in bris i have a nice healthy cake of 1272 i can share


I'm just down the road from Greenslops in Annerley, but I do have a smack pack of 1272 waiting patiently in the fridge. Thanks for the offer though mate!


----------



## mondestrunken

Slow day at work today so I finally read through the entire thread.

One question that came up and wasn't answered is how long a 136g disposable O2 botle (e.g. from brewman) lasts? Let's not start up the great debate on how much to use - I just want a ballpark figure.

Cheers.


----------



## kaiserben

mondestrunken said:


> Slow day at work today so I finally read through the entire thread.
> 
> One question that came up and wasn't answered is how long a 136g disposable O2 botle (e.g. from brewman) lasts? Let's not start up the great debate on how much to use - I just want a ballpark figure.
> 
> Cheers.


I dunno those particular bottles, but I use the Tradeflame 930ml/110L O2 bottles from Bunnings. 

And if you want me to put a ballpark figure on how long these last, the closest estimate I can give you is "f-ing ages". 

But if you want to get technical the bottle yields 110L, and I'm pushing oxygen out at roughly 2.5-3.0L/min (let's call it 3L/min as an over-estimate). So my average use per batch would be about 2 minutes (between 60-90 seconds in the wort, but also including moving and rinsing the stone with the O2 still flowing, till I get it back into the no-rinse solution that I store the stone in). So theoretically it should last me at least 18 batches.


----------



## mondestrunken

Thanks kaiserben. Just a question on your response: how do you convert grams of O2 into litres? My puny brain can't even begin to think about how to do that calculation.


----------



## kaiserben

Dunno. But I'm sure someone here will know the answer. 

EDIT: Tradeflame bottle also says 136g, so looks like it's the same size.


----------



## mondestrunken

Cool. That makes it heaps easier! Thanks


----------



## Rocker1986

I pitched the yeast into my second batch using O2 yesterday arvo at about 4.15pm. It's an APA brew, OG at 1.051 in 26 litres, pitched with 1272 yeast from a starter. It's now sitting at between 18 and 18.3C or thereabouts. The cube was chilled down to about 20C in the brew fridge after I kegged the previous batch, and oxygen was injected for between 90 seconds and 2 minutes after tipping into the fermenter, and the yeast was then pitched cold into the wort. I checked it about 9.30 this morning and there was no sign of activity but another hour later and it looks like it's beginning to get going, with groups of small bubbles appearing on the surface.

Is this lag time of about 18/19 hours normal for this process and the yeast strain? I seem to remember reading that the lag time might be increased a bit with the added oxygen as the yeast will use it all up first before getting going, so I'm not worried about it and 18/19 hours isn't that long really, but just curious as to what other people have experienced. In the past before I began using O2, when I pitched ale yeast cold into the wort, I noticed lag times about half this time. Thoughts?


----------



## Phoney

Brewman_ said:


> Yes dial it back. As Liam_snorkel said, if it is bubbling out your wasting the O2.
> As long as you can just see the bubbles on the surface then that is the right rate.


Brewman, after just 6 batches the cylinder is empty!  I take off the regulator after each time I use it just like you said, but as there were no instructions that came with it I didn't know how much to open the valve. I didn't let it bubble over after the first go but obviously still had it set too high. I read earlier that I should be able to get 50 batches out of a single bottle. Sorry to say but I can't help but feel a bit ripped off. Any suggestions?


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Lower the flow rate


----------



## Phoney

Yeah obviously, wish I had known that earlier.


----------



## TidalPete

Too easy!


----------



## Coldspace

Yes rocker, it's lag increase due to more O2 been used up. It'll fire away hard in about 36 to 48 hrs.

All good...


----------



## malt junkie

Rocker1986 said:


> I pitched the yeast into my second batch using O2 yesterday arvo at about 4.15pm. It's an APA brew, OG at 1.051 in 26 litres, pitched with 1272 yeast from a starter. It's now sitting at between 18 and 18.3C or thereabouts. The cube was chilled down to about 20C in the brew fridge after I kegged the previous batch, and oxygen was injected for between 90 seconds and 2 minutes after tipping into the fermenter, and the yeast was then pitched cold into the wort. I checked it about 9.30 this morning and there was no sign of activity but another hour later and it looks like it's beginning to get going, with groups of small bubbles appearing on the surface.
> 
> Is this lag time of about 18/19 hours normal for this process and the yeast strain? I seem to remember reading that the lag time might be increased a bit with the added oxygen as the yeast will use it all up first before getting going, so I'm not worried about it and 18/19 hours isn't that long really, but just curious as to what other people have experienced. In the past before I began using O2, when I pitched ale yeast cold into the wort, I noticed lag times about half this time. Thoughts?


oxygenate a second time at around the 12 hr mark.


----------



## Coldspace

When you say you pitched yeast cold, did you pitch it at the same or very close to the wort temp?

If you pitched chilled down starter into 20 c wort you prob have shocked it.


----------



## Killer Brew

Coldspace said:


> Yes rocker, it's lag increase due to more O2 been used up. It'll fire away hard in about 36 to 48 hrs.
> All good...


I'm not seeing this lag. My latest has just blown through the glad wrap at around 30 hours. So far quicker and more intense than in the past. Not enough O2? I gave it around 3 mins worth.


----------



## Rocker1986

The yeast is pitched cold straight from the fridge, or at least I take it out and decant it before getting the fermenter ready and wort into it. I read something on here last year about letting it warm up for hours causing it to use up all its trelahose reserves and therefore being more vulnerable to osmotic pressure at pitching time, whereas pitching cold doesn't allow this. Ever since I've started pitching cold yeast into warm wort I've noticed a significant decrease in the lag times, and no detrimental effects on the beer. I was always led to believe that pitching warm yeast into cold wort was worse for shocking it than the other way around.

I use the same method pitching yeast into starters and they're up and going in 2-3 hours usually.

In any case, the krausen was up and going nicely by the 24 hour mark. It may be bigger now but I'm not home to check it.


----------



## dammag

I am interested in getting an O2 setup and can see the benefits but one thing I was wondering about was when did commercial breweries start using oxygenation?

For example. Does Chimay use oxygenation and when did they start? Do they get better attenuation now than before? Did they use higher pitching rates previously to make up for lack of oxygenation?

They make some big, well attenuated beers. Obviously simple sugar plays a part but yeast health is also obviously important.


----------



## Brewnicorn

Killer Brew said:


> I'm not seeing this lag. My latest has just blown through the glad wrap at around 30 hours. So far quicker and more intense than in the past. Not enough O2? I gave it around 3 mins worth.


What were you brewing out of interest?


----------



## Killer Brew

Brewnicorn said:


> What were you brewing out of interest?


IPA with OG of 1060. Yeast was Wyeast American Ale. At 48 hours it is still going nuts, SG down to 1038. So not ridiculous gravity drops but would be equal to the most vigorous ferment I have experienced.


----------



## Brewnicorn

Sounds hard core.


----------



## Killer Brew

Ha, anything but as far as the recipe is concerned but the ferment is hardcore. Blow off tube in future. The wait is on now to see where the FG finishes, that will be a key measure of success for me as in the past I would have struggled to get this below 1015. I mashed at 62 degrees and pitched a big starter so have given it every chance.


----------



## Batz

I have an unused 02 cylinder and flow meter four sale if anyone is interested. I bought it and then moved to a industrial refillable cylinder.

https://www.bunnings.com.au/tradeflame-930ml-oxygen-gas-cartridge_p5910241

$40.00 the lot.


----------



## Alchomist

On the phone, can't see your location?


----------



## Batz

Alchomist said:


> On the phone, can't see your location?


Sunshine Coast, not much good to you I'm afraid.


----------



## evoo4u

Batz said:


> All stainless but has been stored several years so will need a wire brush up.


Just a word of caution about cleaning crap from stainless steel - if you use a wire brush, use only one with stainless steel wire. Using a run-of-the-mill wire brush will scratch the surface and leave tiny fragments which will cause rust.

These recommendations are from a manufacturer's website:

NEVER EVER use
*steel wool (wire wool) to clean stainless steel. It is usually made of carbon steel and any fragments left behind will rust onto the stainless steel surface.
* pre-used scourer, which may previously have been used on ordinary (carbon) steel, is also a NEVER DO, for the same reason.

Stainless steel wool scouring pads are available for heavy duty work, like removing burnt food from stainless steel saucepans. These will scratch the stainless steel surface, but won’t leave fragments to go rusty.

TOTALLY AVOID
* Rubbing with steel wool (wire wool) or scraping with steel tools
* Using scourers and cleaning cloths that have been used on ordinary steel
* Rubbing plastic scourers across the grain of brushed surfaces
* Using concentrated bleach or hydrochloric acid-based cleaning
* Contact with product containing chlorine bleach, hydrochloric or muriatic acid


----------



## Rambo

Batz said:


> I have an unused 02 cylinder and flow meter four sale if anyone is interested. I bought it and then moved to a industrial refillable cylinder.
> 
> https://www.bunnings.com.au/tradeflame-930ml-oxygen-gas-cartridge_p5910241
> 
> $40.00 the lot.


What regulator will I need to use this?


----------



## Batz

Rambo said:


> What regulator will I need to use this?


https://www.bunnings.com.au/tradeflame-regulator-conversion-kit_p5910287


----------



## husky

Batz said:


> I have an unused 02 cylinder and flow meter four sale if anyone is interested. I bought it and then moved to a industrial refillable cylinder.
> 
> https://www.bunnings.com.au/tradeflame-930ml-oxygen-gas-cartridge_p5910241
> 
> $40.00 the lot.


Hey mate did you still have any O2 regulators to get rid of? I'm weighing up going the tradeflame kit or a bunnings Coregas "trade and go" D size setup which would need a proper reg.


----------



## Batz

husky said:


> Hey mate did you still have any O2 regulators to get rid of? I'm weighing up going the tradeflame kit or a bunnings Coregas "trade and go" D size setup which would need a proper reg.


All gone mate.


----------



## quadbox

dammag said:


> I am interested in getting an O2 setup and can see the benefits but one thing I was wondering about was when did commercial breweries start using oxygenation?
> For example. Does Chimay use oxygenation and when did they start? Do they get better attenuation now than before? Did they use higher pitching rates previously to make up for lack of oxygenation?
> They make some big, well attenuated beers. Obviously simple sugar plays a part but yeast health is also obviously important.


I'd be astounded if they didn't. Chimay have a history of being early adopters of innovations. 

Commercial breweries have used oxygen a looooooooooong time.


----------



## Matplat

Coldspace said:


> Yes rocker, it's lag increase due to more O2 been used up. It'll fire away hard in about 36 to 48 hrs.
> 
> All good...


I thought the idea was that the yeast does its thing faster (harder better stronger  )aerobically, than anaerobically?


----------



## Coldspace

Matplat said:


> I thought the idea was that the yeast does its thing faster (harder better stronger  )aerobically, than anaerobically?


Not sure... But I do remember MHB stating once that it does sound reasonable that due to higher O2 there is abit more lag due to this.
I have noticed this in my batches , usually 24-36 they fire away hard, nicer looking krausen and finish slightly quicker with a couple of points lower.
One thing is I recon my beers have been better last 5 odd months, this is all I need to continue the journey of making better beers...
Cheers


----------



## mstrelan

Matplat said:


> I thought the idea was that the yeast does its thing faster (harder better stronger  )aerobically, than anaerobically?


I think the key word is healthier. They breed for a while and develop a nice healthy population and then ferment the sugars.


----------



## husky

Picked up an O2 set from gumtree yesterday, basically an empty bottle with a regulator and flow meter. Before I ring BOC can anyone shed some light on the refill options. Does the bottle belong to BOC and I will start paying rental when I go in to get it filled? What are the other refill options other than BOC?


----------



## BKBrews

I'm just starting to investigate this and will probably end up with a wand attached to 0.5 micron stone + a regulator for the benzomatic style disposable bottle.

I haven't read through the entire thread, but can someone shed some light on how you're estimating the per minute oxygen levels? Most of the regulators I've seen appear to be simple twist setups with no gauge.


----------



## MHB

You work out the flow rate by putting the stone in the bottom of the fermenter and slowly adjusting the O2 flow until the bubbles are just breaking the surface.
Which sort of makes me wonder just how much use the flow meter really is, its is just telling you something you already know - that you have enough O2 flowing to make the bubbles just reach the surface...

I know this has blown out to 25 pages, but if you did do a bit of reading I think you might conclude that the Benzomatic bottles are about the dearest way possible to buy O2, and that 2um stones are a lot easier to look after than 0.5um stones and give pretty much the same performance.
Mark


----------



## Adr_0

I just added 3mL of hopefully fairly good 12% H2O2 to 22L of a saison after pitching yeast. I'm sure the beer will be a tip job, but fingers crossed it works out.


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Interested in how it goes, cheers for taking one for the team


----------



## Rocker1986

I've been having success with the pure O2 as well recently. The lag times on these batches seem to be longer than when I didn't oxygenate the wort this way, but the fermentations are very healthy and the beers have all turned out really nicely. The latest one (a porter) was pitched on Saturday with 1469 after oxygenating for about 2 and a half minutes, and 72 hours later yesterday morning it had dropped from the OG of 1.060 down to 1.024. It's probably at FG now since I raised the temp up to 22C at that point. I'll definitely be continuing with it from now on.


----------



## technobabble66

Adr_0 said:


> I just added 3mL of hopefully fairly good 12% H2O2 to 22L of a saison after pitching yeast. I'm sure the beer will be a tip job, but fingers crossed it works out.


It'll be totally fine Adr_0. 
I've done 4 batches like this over the last 2 months. All totally fine, took off quite happily & hit terminal reasonably steadily (minor technicality is one became infected, though nothing to do with this H2O2 technique). 

I haven't reported these yet as I wanted to have some solid results to crow about. [emoji57] However, 2 of them were low-ish Gravity 11L batches from a Case Swap collaboration brew that each received a (fairly fresh) WLP pure pitch "vial". So I hadn't actually brewed them myself, they were low gravity, and the pitching rate was relatively high to begin with. Followed by the 3rd batch which was pitched onto the yeast cake of the non-infected first batch. Both of which were fermented by a Saison yeast (WLP-566) which are fairly fast anyway. 
Finally the 4th is an APA test batch for the nuked FV of the infected batch, done using M44, currently close to terminal after ~7 days. Looking very healthy, but not finished yet. 
So basically nothing groundbreaking to report, though I should've bothered to mention that it at the very least:
1) it doesn't seemed to have impaired the yeasts, and 
2) it may well have contributed to healthy ferments. 

I'm inclined to think it's worked well as an O2 source in these (sketchy!) tests from what I've initially seen, however i simply need more definitive results before I'd be confident in proclaiming it as a "proven" "good" method. 


One minor thought I've had is to try splitting the H2O2 dose, if it's not too inconvenient. 
Ie: squirt in half the amount after pitching, then come back several hours later and squirt in the other half. 
Given this O2 technique is so easy (ie: sterilize a spoon, open FV, squirt in some stuff, stir it in, reseal FV), it seems like a great way to optimize the O2 by leveraging an advantage of this technique (ie: ease of delivery).


----------



## peteru

After hearing back from the chemists at Gold Cross, I'm happy enough to use their 6% hydrogen peroxide for my brews. The main stabiliser ingredient that they use is phosphoric acid. I bet I get more of that from the starsan than from the H2O2.

I've done several brews now with 10-12mL of H2O2 into 20-23L batches. All were done with US-05 and fermented in the 17-19C range. I'm happy with the fermentation results in a number of aspects: lag, time to FG, attenuation and flavour profile. The introduction of O2 is a relatively minor optimisation when compared to exercising proper temperature control, but it does give you that final 20% improvement.

It would be interesting to do a 3 way comparison of paint stirrer aeration, H2O2 addition and O2 via air stone in terms of the resulting flavour profile. As far as practical simplicity goes, nothing beats 10mL of H2O2 squirted into a fermenter. Faffing about with paint stirrers or O2 wands seems like way too much effort. My technique is to use a mash paddle to give the wort a good stir, then pour a liquid yeast starter into the whirlpool and immediately drip/slowly squirt the H2O2 into the moving mass.

BTW: My latest batch had H2O2 addition and with US-05 I fermented a Gladfield American Ale / Centennial SMaSH from 1.053 to 1.004 in 7 days at 16C, 1 day at 18C, 1 day at 20C and then 20 hours at 6C. Force carbed at 6C with aeration stone at 150KPa for one hour, then 120KPa for another two hours. Very clean taste. I could have probably gone faster on this ferment, but real life slowed my brewing down...

I'm glad that others are giving my technique a go. It's the simplest and safest method for increasing O2 concentrations in your wort at home brewing scale.


----------



## Mardoo

Just to add another option, "vitality starters". Putting your single-batch pitch on the stirplate with 500ml of fresh wort, and spinning the hell out of it for 4-6 hours. You oxygenate the vitality starter wort (or not), and then spin it up with the yeast. This is to oxygenate the yeast as fully as possible in the phase it most needs it, rather than oxygenating your entire batch of wort. I've done a few of them now and, anecdotally speaking, I can't tell the difference between batches of the same wort done on the same yeast, one with the vitality starter and the other with more typical oxygenation. I'm seeing krausen within 8 hours using the vitality starters. Apparently the idea originally came from Coors, via Colin Kaminsky.

_Coors England developed an amazing method that is perfect for homebrewers to steal. Take a stir plate and make a starter. Add yeast and 10˚P wort [1.040 SG]. Aerate for 4 hours. At the end of 4 hours pitch into the wort. Do not aerate the batch. This maximizes “vitality.” Vitality is the most difficult to measure and important parameter in yeast. A standard starter is fermented out and then re-pitched. This [a vitality starter] uses continuous air and only allows the starter to spin for 4 hours. No alcohol is produced. The yeast respires but does not enter fermentation until after it’s pitched into the wort._

Apparently the technique originally came from two folks named Boulton and Quain.

It's an interesting notion that's holding out in my fermentations, at least according to flavour and storage duration. I wouldn't say it's making better beer than any other means of getting O2 to the yeast, but it certainly seems at least equal to the others.


----------



## klangers

peteru said:


> I'm glad that others are giving my technique a go. It's the simplest and safest method for increasing O2 concentrations in your wort at home brewing scale.


Peroxide is hardly safe. 

Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidant which reacts with anything organic (in a chemistry sense). It is very often the cause of fires. If it spills onto (eg) your garage floor, it will react violently with any oil or other organic compounds.

Not saying your technique doesn't work, but I'd be cautious on the grand claims.


----------



## Yob

manticle said:


> So don't put it in the oven, leave it inside a car or place in a bowl of very hot water.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6HnXsy9zio


----------



## Adr_0

Liam_snorkel said:


> Interested in how it goes, cheers for taking one for the team


The only catch is that it's not really a controlled test. I did a split batch last time of two different yeasts, but just went double or nothing this time. But, we'll see how it goes anyway.

Sometime in the future I will do another split batch of with/without.


----------



## Adr_0

Mardoo said:


> Just to add another option, "vitality starters". Putting your single-batch pitch on the stirplate with 500ml of fresh wort, and spinning the hell out of it for 4-6 hours. You oxygenate the vitality starter wort (or not), and then spin it up with the yeast. This is to oxygenate the yeast as fully as possible in the phase it most needs it, rather than oxygenating your entire batch of wort. I've done a few of them now and, anecdotally speaking, I can't tell the difference between batches of the same wort done on the same yeast, one with the vitality starter and the other with more typical oxygenation. I'm seeing krausen within 8 hours using the vitality starters. Apparently the idea originally came from Coors, via Colin Kaminsky.
> 
> _Coors England developed an amazing method that is perfect for homebrewers to steal. Take a stir plate and make a starter. Add yeast and 10˚P wort [1.040 SG]. Aerate for 4 hours. At the end of 4 hours pitch into the wort. Do not aerate the batch. This maximizes “vitality.” Vitality is the most difficult to measure and important parameter in yeast. A standard starter is fermented out and then re-pitched. This [a vitality starter] uses continuous air and only allows the starter to spin for 4 hours. No alcohol is produced. The yeast respires but does not enter fermentation until after it’s pitched into the wort._
> 
> Apparently the technique originally came from two folks named Boulton and Quain.
> 
> It's an interesting notion that's holding out in my fermentations, at least according to flavour and storage duration. I wouldn't say it's making better beer than any other means of getting O2 to the yeast, but it certainly seems at least equal to the others.


This is in line with the Fermentis FAQ http://www.fermentis.com/brewing/industrial-brewing/faq/
_Does the wort need Oxygenation / aeration?
As the yeast is grown aerobically, the yeast is less sensitive on first pitch. Aeration is recommended to ensure full mixing of the wort and yeast._

My understanding is that O2 is needed during growth to increase yeast cell density and cell vitality. So by extension, if yeast cells are growing - during reproduction - then a source of O2 is beneficial.

This still comes down to growing though, and adequate pitch. If you have an adequate pitch and have increased cell count with oxygen, then your yeast cells should indeed be perfectly healthy and can chew the sugahz quickly and comfortably.

I expected a bit of growing to still happen: I pitched only a packet of yeast and had only had about 9-10hrs on a smallish starter, so though O2 would be beneficial during reproduction/growth.

It still comes down to the same point I guess... if you expect a lot of growth in your wort, O2 will help. If you have a massive amount of fresh yeast that has been grown with O2 - I would say this is different to a yeast cake - then you don't really need it.


----------



## GalBrew

I would be a little wary adding hydrogen peroxide post-pitch. Sounds like a really good way of reducing yeast numbers, considering that peroxide is used as a disinfectant.


----------



## Adr_0

GalBrew said:


> I would be a little wary adding hydrogen peroxide post-pitch. Sounds like a really good way of reducing yeast numbers, considering that peroxide is used as a disinfectant.


I think like many things, it depends on the dosage. You may be correct if I poured 1L of 12% H2O2 into the wort, but I don't believe you are correct when we're talking about 3mL of 12% solution in 22L of wort. 

I had a big rocky krausen when I checked 9hrs after pitching yeast, so hopefully that indicates healthy yeast rather than dead yeast.


----------



## GalBrew

Adr_0 said:


> I think like many things, it depends on the dosage. You may be correct if I poured 1L of 12% H2O2 into the wort, but I don't believe you are correct when we're talking about 3mL of 12% solution in 22L of wort.
> 
> I had a big rocky krausen when I checked 9hrs after pitching yeast, so hopefully that indicates healthy yeast rather than dead yeast.


You are probably right, it just feels a bit wrong after using H202 to kill microbes rather than feed them! I would be interested if anyone has access to a dissolved oxygen meter and a microscope to compare peroxide with direct oxygen. Even if the methods were the same, I would be happy to ditch the oxygen wand.


----------



## klangers

It does feel a little wrong, I must admit. I've never seen H2O2 used in commercial breweries*; logic tells me that if it were superior they'd be onto it in a heartbeat. 

EDIT: * For wort oxygenation


----------



## Adr_0

klangers said:


> It does feel a little wrong, I must admit. I've never seen H2O2 used in commercial breweries*; logic tells me that if it were superior they'd be onto it in a heartbeat.
> 
> EDIT: * For wort oxygenation


There is still actually a dosing requirement. O2 would be considered a plant utility, readily available - so it can be injected as required in the feed to the fermenter.

That's not to say H2O2 can't as well, but I think it would be harder to mix. We're taking 5-10L in a 40,000L batch (12%) or 1L in 40000L at 100%, for example. Something like that, you need to be fairly dilute so that you don't get over-exposure in some wort. Definitely possible but perhaps they are just set up better for traditional oxygenation.

Storage and handling might be annoying too, as H2O2 reduces in concentration as it weathers. So although hazards are similar, they may just find it more predictable to use O2 gas from a tank.


----------



## Jack of all biers

Firstly sorry for using quotes to answer quotes, but I reckon this method may need it's own thread - Peteru, Adro and Technobabble should take the credit for giving us all this info.



klangers said:


> Peroxide is hardly safe.
> 
> Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidant which reacts with anything organic (in a chemistry sense). It is very often the cause of fires. If it spills onto (eg) your garage floor, it will react violently with any oil or other organic compounds.
> 
> Not saying your technique doesn't work, but I'd be cautious on the grand claims.


Pure oxygen is also often the cause of fires and explosions when handled poorly too. Squirt some oxygen at some oil or petrol and see what happens. An unhealthy dose of Carbon monoxide would be the most minor of the problems that could be caused. But, brewers on this forum use it all the time. My point being I doubt H2O2 is any more dangerous that pressurized oxygen. Both should be handled appropriately.




GalBrew said:


> I would be a little wary adding hydrogen peroxide post-pitch. Sounds like a really good way of reducing yeast numbers, considering that peroxide is used as a disinfectant.


Read the link on Adro's post (quoted below) from mid-way through this thread. I think the small amount of H2O2 in solution would not reduce the yeast count significantly or at all, but sure does add oxygen.

*EDIT* - some research on another yeast (Candida) show that high concentrations of H2O2 are needed to kill it off. https://candidahub.com/Home-Remedy/Using-Hydrogen-Peroxide-for-Yeast-Infections Whilst not brewers yeast, it gives you an idea of the quantity of H2O2 needed to kill off various strains of yeast. 15% to 30% concentrations to kill it.
_"A study, published in Infectious Diseases in Obstetrics and Gynecology [3.2 (1995): 73-78], sought to see how effective hydrogen peroxide would be at inhibiting Candida strains and sought to see how catalase modified this effect. Catalase, as you know, is an enzyme that breaks down hydrogen peroxide; thus, its presence can limit the inhibiting power of hydrogen peroxide. And, all the strains of Candida investigated by this study possessed catalase. "_

_"The major finding of the study, how much H2O2 is needed to stop Candida growth, revealed that all of the 38 strains tested were successfully inhibited by approximately 149.6 mg / L up to 2993.3 mg / L. Again, non-albicans strains, on average, required a higher concentration to inhibit." _



Adr_0 said:


> Just on H2O2, I'm getting a bit more comfortable using it and will do a with/without split batch with dry yeast.
> 
> https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://folk.ntnu.no/audunfor/5.%2520semester/Felles%2520lab/Report%2520-%2520yeast%2520fermentation%2520-%2520B19.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiRqqDypYzQAhXCEpQKHVHtABEQFgg5MAM&usg=AFQjCNEitaYCnf-8yfs-3GfZ8jY6SE_pFA&sig2=RRRzHXlaVeGzJWQIC495sQ
> 
> Assuming 8-20g of H2O2 (6% or 3%) to get 10ppm in 23L this takes 20-25min to fully decompose at 11g/23L, vs just under 20 min for 22g (two packs) and 6-7min at 50-55g/23L.
> 
> I think the food grade bit is important but seems like the free radicals only come up with certain metal catalysts.
> 
> It seems like a couple of things point to adding yeast to the wort, THEN adding H2O2 - not only is the yeast critical to catalyse the decomposition, but as mentioned previously, having highish DO hanging around without yeast can possibly stale the wort somewhat. So if yeast is there already then it in hopefully going to yeast growth instead of just oxidising wort.





peteru said:


> After hearing back from the chemists at Gold Cross, I'm happy enough to use their 6% hydrogen peroxide for my brews. The main stabiliser ingredient that they use is phosphoric acid. I bet I get more of that from the starsan than from the H2O2.
> 
> I've done several brews now with 10-12mL of H2O2 into 20-23L batches. All were done with US-05 and fermented in the 17-19C range. I'm happy with the fermentation results in a number of aspects: lag, time to FG, attenuation and flavour profile. The introduction of O2 is a relatively minor optimisation when compared to exercising proper temperature control, but it does give you that final 20% improvement.
> 
> I'm glad that others are giving my technique a go. It's the simplest and safest method for increasing O2 concentrations in your wort at home brewing scale.


Peteru, Did they give you a list of the other stabilizers they use? I'm just thinking to Adro's answer to an earlier post I made to some of the common stabilizers being either irritants or one being potentially pretty bad for the liver (yes so is alcohol everyone - Dave70  )



GalBrew said:


> You are probably right, it just feels a bit wrong after using H202 to kill microbes rather than feed them! I would be interested if anyone has access to a dissolved oxygen meter and a microscope to compare peroxide with direct oxygen. Even if the methods were the same, I would be happy to ditch the oxygen wand.


I bet you didn't wait for DO meter to get your O2 equipment or test just how much is actually absorbing into solution though. I'd be happy to use this method given some of what I've read and the feedback from the guys that have posted their results (I haven't so far as I spent the best part of 2 months either out of the country or starting a new job so brewing has taken a back seat),. 

Adro's post below from earlier in the thread tells us fairly accurately how much O2 could be released into solution. If accuracy is the thing one's after, then I'd trust the below calculations over a casual bubble the O2 until the bubbles hit the surface method. I'm not knocking that method, as if I had an O2 set up I'd do the same, but pointing out the accuracy of such methods wouldn't give entirely accurate levels of O2. Not wrong, just not accurate.



Adr_0 said:


> I went 10mg/L x 23L = 0.23g.
> O2 is 32g/mol, so that means 0.007mol of O2 for 10ppm in 23L.
> 0.007mol, by the 2H202 > 2H2O + O2, means 2 x 0.007mol of H2O2, ie 0.014mol, and at 34g/mol, is 0.48g of H202.
> 3wt% >> 16g
> 6wt% >> 8g
> 
> I'm pretty sure the solutions you get are vol%, but it would be pretty close.



My concerns with the H2O2 method, would be the potential for oxidation of the wort (although I'm feeling that this would be so minor if yeast is pitched first) and secondly, the unknown of what chemical stabilizers are in the non-food grade H2O2 (easily overcome if I bite the bullet and just find and buy some of the expensive stuff).

Thanks again to the pioneers of this method. I love simple solutions as they are often the best with the least overall risk. I will be trying it on a brew in the near future.


----------



## GalBrew

Jack of all biers said:


> I bet you didn't wait for DO meter to get your O2 equipment or test just how much is actually absorbing into solution though. I'd be happy to use this method given some of what I've read and the feedback from the guys that have posted their results (I haven't so far as I spent the best part of 2 months either out of the country or starting a new job so brewing has taken a back seat),.



No I didn't, because the work had already been done. In the Yeast book there is a table on page 81 with the DO info supplied.


----------



## RobB

Probably a silly idea, but if you don't ask, you don't learn. So...........

If the yeast consumes all available oxygen within a couple of hours, what would happen if you you used an aquarium pump but put it on a timer switch for three hours? In other words, could you use an imperfect source of oxygen if you replaced the O2 as fast as it could be consumed?

If foam and aroma scrubbing make this approach undesirable, most timer switchers can be programmed to come on for a few minutes each hour rather than running non-stop.


----------



## MHB

Lots of breweries use peroxide or peroxide based sterilisers (i.e. proxitane) and dispensing corrosive/reactive liquids is a piece of cake these days, dosing pumps are cheap and easily available. 
Got to admit that I have some concerns about adding H2O2 to a wort, mainly relating to yeast mutations, damage to cell nutrient transport mechanisms and the reactions between peroxide and lipids.

Lots of breweries use peroxide as a steriliser, cant find any reference to peroxide being used to "aerate" wort tho, other than here and a couple of other home brew forums.
Mark


----------



## Jack of all biers

GalBrew said:


> No I didn't, because the work had already been done. In the Yeast book there is a table on page 81 with the DO info supplied.


Fair enough, but I wouldn't use that commercial example for comparison to home brew. The equipment used, volumes and time scales are very different in the HB environment.




MHB said:


> Got to admit that I have some concerns about adding H2O2 to a wort, mainly relating to yeast mutations, damage to cell nutrient transport mechanisms and the reactions between peroxide and lipids.


This is a good point. Commercially it would not be a good idea to use H2O2 and that may be one main reason they don't. I would say though that if HB'ers were reusing yeast for a large number of generations then you would be right, mutation would become a concern. But because of other factors in the HB environment, such as less than perfect sanitation, mutations from other less than perfect conditions, we tend not to use yeast for as many generations, but purchase new yeast stock every few brews.

But just because it's not been heard of doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried and experimented with. It may turn out to be a bad idea, but until it's tested thoroughly, I will be holding my judgement. All I say is the theory is good, now the hypothesis needs thorough examination.


----------



## Jack of all biers

Malty Cultural said:


> Probably a silly idea, but if you don't ask, you don't learn. So...........
> 
> If the yeast consumes all available oxygen within a couple of hours, what would happen if you you used an aquarium pump but put it on a timer switch for three hours? In other words, could you use an imperfect source of oxygen if you replaced the O2 as fast as it could be consumed?
> 
> If foam and aroma scrubbing make this approach undesirable, most timer switchers can be programmed to come on for a few minutes each hour rather than running non-stop.


Not a silly idea and I think some commercial breweries used to do something similar. I guess if you had some way to ensure good sanitation in not having your fermenter open the whole time or too much foam blow out, this may well work reasonably well.


----------



## Feldon

Malty Cultural said:


> Probably a silly idea, but if you don't ask, you don't learn. So...........
> 
> If the yeast consumes all available oxygen within a couple of hours, what would happen if you you used an aquarium pump but put it on a timer switch for three hours? In other words, could you use an imperfect source of oxygen if you replaced the O2 as fast as it could be consumed?
> 
> If foam and aroma scrubbing make this approach undesirable, most timer switchers can be programmed to come on for a few minutes each hour rather than running non-stop.


Not so silly. This news story from an English newspaper in 1899 describes a way to keep oxygen levels up in the fermenting beer by using a vacuum pump to remove the CO2 and replace it with filtered air. I think the idea is that the oxygen in the filtered air will dissolve into the fermenting beer “rousing” the yeast.

Seems to be the opposite of fermenting under pressure in a sealed fermentor.

(Note, in the article CO2 is referred to as “carbonic acid gas).


_The Sheffield & Rotherham Independent_, Sat. 21 Oct 1899. p.5


----------



## MHB

FFS - We might have learned a bit about yeast and brewing since 1899.
Once yeast is pitched and has adapted to the environment, taken up all the nutrients it needs (including Oxygen) and started reproducing - about the worst thing you could do would be to add more Oxygen!
Mark


----------



## Adr_0

Malty Cultural said:


> Probably a silly idea, but if you don't ask, you don't learn. So...........
> 
> If the yeast consumes all available oxygen within a couple of hours, what would happen if you you used an aquarium pump but put it on a timer switch for three hours? In other words, could you use an imperfect *source of oxygen if you replaced the O2 as fast as it could be consumed*?
> 
> If foam and aroma scrubbing make this approach undesirable, most timer switchers can be programmed to come on for a few minutes each hour rather than running non-stop.


You really don't want to replace it as fast as it's consumed - you want to have a finite amount there, and ideally end up having it all taken up by the yeast cells. 

After this point, O2 added to the beer sends the beer downhill very quickly and very thoroughly.


----------



## Feldon

MHB said:


> FFS - We might have learned a bit about yeast and brewing since 1899.
> Once yeast is pitched and has adapted to the environment, taken up all the nutrients it needs (including Oxygen) and started reproducing - *about the worst thing you could do would be to add more Oxygen!*
> Mark


Come on, you can't be serious. Never heard of Double Dropping?


----------



## MHB

Yes and I know what it does to your diacetyl levels and why.
Also seen some evidence that the amount of "aeration" is much less than people thought, the young wort is fully saturated with CO2 by the time the beer is dropped and gasses off enough to displace most of the Oxygen in the tank. I tend to think of it as a novel way to do a trub cone drop in a brewery without CCV's.

At best it rouses the yeast, and leaves early trub in the first fermenter
Mark.


----------



## Adr_0

Feldon said:


> Come on, you can't be serious. Never heard of Double Dropping?





MHB said:


> Yes and I know what it does to your diacetyl levels and why.
> Also seen some evidence that the amount of "aeration" is much less than people thought, the young wort is fully saturated with CO2 by the time the beer is dropped and gasses off enough to displace most of the Oxygen in the tank. I tend to think of it as a novel way to do a trub cone drop in a brewery without CCV's.
> 
> At best it rouses the yeast, and leaves early trub in the first fermenter
> Mark.


But I would hazard they are the same yeast cells, which have taken up O2 or have not - I wouldn't expect much/any more growing from this. So O2-ing again would just oxidise the beer I would think.


----------



## Bribie G

DD is usually done within about 24 hours so would have the effect of topping up O2 levels during the lag phase in the days before O2 became feasible. 
Fullers did it till recently. 

Dropping was common in Australia as well, into squares or in the case of Coopers into Jarrah tuns.


----------



## Jack of all biers

DD aside, isn't the method that Malty Cultural is asking about/proposing, not too dissimilar from the stir plate vitality method as per Mardoo's post, but just different? In other words, vitalize the yeast in the fermenter for 3 hours instead of in a starter for 4. For those that don't have stir plates or oxygen set ups (nor money to get them) this may be a valid way of doing it.


Malty Cultural said:


> If the yeast consumes all available oxygen within a couple of hours, what would happen if you you used an aquarium pump but put it on a timer switch for three hours? In other words, could you use an imperfect source of oxygen if you replaced the O2 as fast as it could be consumed?





Mardoo said:


> Just to add another option, "vitality starters". Putting your single-batch pitch on the stirplate with 500ml of fresh wort, and spinning the hell out of it for 4-6 hours. ....
> ...I've done a few of them now and, anecdotally speaking, I can't tell the difference between batches of the same wort done on the same yeast, one with the vitality starter and the other with more typical oxygenation. I'm seeing krausen within 8 hours using the vitality starters....
> 
> ...It's an interesting notion that's holding out in my fermentations, at least according to flavour and storage duration. I wouldn't say it's making better beer than any other means of getting O2 to the yeast, but it certainly seems at least equal to the others.


Malty Cultural, it's over to you to experiment on a batch if you have an air pump set up.

EDIT - I honestly can't see a 3hr air pump aeration, instead of 30mins or up to 1hr that some brewers use, as being detrimental to the yeast or flavours they produce. It may well be worth aerating for 30 min, before adding the yeast if conducting such a method though. I would think that even oxidation would be a minimal risk if the yeast haven't converted to their anaerobic phase, which they wouldn't if there was a constant aeration to the wort. (on this last point I must defer to more knowledgeable people such as MHB though).


----------



## Bribie G

Returning to the Allsopps lager brewing.
Rather than fill the thread up with massive cut and pastes, you can google Encyclopaedia Britannica 1911, Brewing, Operations and you'll see that they were using the CO2 out, air in method a decade after that newspaper clipping in a previous post. 
According to Ron Pattinson this brewery, one of the biggest at Burton, was at on stage up till the mid 1940s switched over mainly to lager brewing and would no doubt have continued to use that lager equipment.

They had been taken over by Ind Coope in the 1930s but continued producing under their own name till the 50s. Interestingly that old promo film posted on another thread shows Ind Coope's new state of the art facilities built in the 50s, so it's conceivable that the air in gas out method was in use for half a century up to that point.

I'm going to email Ron and see what he can dig up,it could be worth a whirl at the Home Brew scale.


----------



## MHB

This is starting to verge on the ridiculous.
What we are really talking about is racking early to get rid of trub (both hot and cold break, any hop debris and dead yeast) to get rid of unwanted crap that if left in makes for lower quality beer. Cant argue with that, personally I think its a really good idea - that said there has over the years been plenty of discussion here about racking being unnecessary extra work, someone even did some experiments on reducing cold break to see what happened...

These days most breweries use CCV's and just dump the crud out of the cone when ever it needs doing. The number of breweries still double drop is negligible and declining and no one is building new ones, which tell the tale of the benefits of DD compared to CCV's

The one remaining question would be the benefits of Oxygenating the wort after the start of fermentation. Remember that at the time this process was developed bottled oxygen was not available and aeration was achieved during wort cooling in cool ships or towers, which we all know will never achieve optimum dissolved oxygen levels that we can do easily now.
Double dropping may have had some advantages a long time ago, but that time has passed.

Mark


----------



## manticle

Has anyone ever heard of getting a small oxygen cylinder, maybe a reg and some line/tube and actually blowing actual oxygen actually into the wort?
Might sound silly but could be an option.......


----------



## Adr_0

manticle said:


> Has anyone ever heard of getting a small oxygen cylinder, maybe a reg and some line/tube and actually blowing actual oxygen actually into the wort?
> Might sound silly but could be an option.......


I'll have you know pragmatism is not welcome here...


----------



## manticle

I'm familiar with complex simplification techniques.


----------



## SBOB

manticle said:


> Has anyone ever heard of getting a small oxygen cylinder, maybe a reg and some line/tube and actually blowing actual oxygen actually into the wort?
> Might sound silly but could be an option.......


We have, but then someone posted a thread about whether a reg was O2 compatible and everyone gave up


----------



## Bribie G

Could cause excessive frothing.


----------



## Bribie G

Back on track, my 1.050 APA was pitched on Thursday night after a blast of O2 and by Sunday night was clearing from the top, so after a D rest, today (Tuesday)I'm dropping it 4 degrees per day then a week at -1.



Oops did I say dropping?


----------



## Adr_0

Bribie G said:


> Could cause excessive frothing.


Is that in the fermenter or in the mouth of the beer drinker?


----------



## sp0rk

Adr_0 said:


> Is that in the fermenter or in the mouth of the beer drinker?


Neither, in the pants...


----------



## Adr_0

sp0rk said:


> Neither, in the pants...


Oohh. A quick jet of O2 _does_ sound nice...


----------



## Phoney

Bribie G said:


> so after a D rest, today (Tuesday)I'm dropping it 4 degrees per day then a week at -1.


What's the idea behind a staggered cold crash, rather than just straight from D rest to -1 as quickly as your freezer can get it there?


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## warra48

Phoney said:


> What's the idea behind a staggered cold crash, rather than just straight from D rest to -1 as quickly as your freezer can get it there?


Attemporates your yeast gradually and keeps them from going into hibernation from a rapid drop in temperature, thus continuing to assist in cleaning up your beer.
At least, I think that's the theory.
Better brains than mine feel free to jump in here.


----------



## Bribie G

I intend to re use the yeast cake, so treating the little fellas with respect rather than a sledgehammer.


----------



## technobabble66

FWIW, i pitched a Rogers' Ale clone (OG=1.040) onto a M44 yeast cake yesterday. After a little vigorous stirring of the wort, i used ~1.5mL of 35% H2O2 solution (so v similar dosing rate to the others here, i believe), added after pitching, of course.
Today, ~20hrs later, there is a large healthy looking krausen and the SG=1.034, temp has been held at 19°C the whole time.
Given this is pitched onto a large yeast cake, this is hardly a definitive display of oxygenation/success.
However, it might be worth noting the yeast doesn't appear to have died/struggled and is looking healthy & vigorous.
Again, not surprising on the 2nd use of a yeast cake, but i just thought i'd report what's happened.


----------



## manticle

I think actual fermentation time, attenuation and reduced ester level are the main indicators rather than lag time or krausen apperance.

Every time I look at this thread, I want to get a set up. So many costs over the end of last year that have made that harder but hopefully not too much further away.


----------



## peteru

The entry cost for H2O2 method is under $10 for at least 10 batches, if you are happy with pharmaceutical grade H2O2.

The Gold Cross brand uses phosphoric acid as the main stabiliser. It also contains phenacetin (precursor to paracetamol), which used to be sold as a pain-reliever up until to 80s. Phenacetin is no longer used as a pain reliever and has been replaced by paracetamol, due to concerns that in large doses it can cause kidney damage. I am not too concerned about the phenacetin content while I experiment with the technique. The exposure will be fairly minimal given the dilution rate and rate of consumption. If I decide to continue with the H2O2 technique, when I finish the bottle of H2O2 that I have, I'll try to source something without stabilisers. This will probably increase the cost and require more careful handling, thus defeating some of the advantages of the H2O2 method. It's still likely to have lower entry cost than compressed O2 and require less equipment.

I have now done a 3-way test using this Oxygenation method. Same wort split three ways:

1. No H2O2, just stir/shake aeration, fermented without temp control at 20-24C
2. H2O2 6% v/v at a rate of 12mL/20L, fermented without temp control at 20-24C
3. H2O2 6% v/v at a rate of 12mL/20L, fermented at 18C

All three batches started at 1.056 and finished 1.004, using the same US-05 starter. The two batches without temp control were smaller in volume than the main batch fermented under temperature control.

It is no surprise to learn that the temperature controlled batch ended up tasting the cleanest and fermented a little slower.

There was a significant difference between the flavour and aroma of samples 1 and 2. Sample 2 had significantly more esters with hints of green apple and finished fermentation one day faster than sample 1. Sample 1 ended up having less hop aroma and bitterness and the krausen was never as big as sample 2. Admittedly, this is not a very useful test because both samples produced substandard beer due to inappropriate fermentation temperature and lack of temperature control. However, it is interesting to see that the addition of H2O2 does make a difference to the fermentation process and affects the flavour. I was surprised to see more esters and acetaldehyde in the oxygenated wort, but perhaps that will clean up over time.

More experimentation is required. I have batch of MO/Columbus SMaSH ready for pitching tonight. I'll do the main batch with H2O2 and get a small sample without H2O2 next to it in the fermentation chamber. There's not much spare room, but I'll see what I can do.

So far I have not produced a beer with the addition of H2O2 and proper temperature control, where I would have detected fermentation faults.


----------



## Phoney

I once read a many, many page long thread on HBT (I think) on using H2O2 for oxygenation of wort, there were comprehensive experiments done and smartpants with chemistry degree's chiming in and the general consensus was that it was a silly idea. Stick to real oxygen or shaking.


----------



## Adr_0

Phoney said:


> I once read a many, many page long thread on HBT (I think) on using H2O2 for oxygenation of wort, there were comprehensive experiments done and smartpants with chemistry degree's chiming in and the general consensus was that it was a silly idea. Stick to real oxygen or shaking.


Sounds pretty definitive. I'm pretty sure I read on that forum someone with 'Doc' or 'Dr' or 'The Doc' trying this, but massively over-estimating the H2O2 required. Sure enough, he reported the results and everyone got on board. Sometimes doctors, scientists and engineers get a little too caught up in the fine focus stuff and don't think in practical terms. I still go back to my dosage argument - it's a little similar to zinc: too much zinc is toxic to yeast isn't it?

I would like to get my hands on this study as it sounds interesting:
http://www.jbc.org/content/273/35/22480.full

The gist of that one is that quite a lot of eukaryotes have defense mechanisms for H2O2 as it's something they encounter quite a lot in nature, believe it or not. They need to still be able to function under oxidative stress. That article appears to suggest Saccharomyces cerivisae is one of those beasts.

The catalase enzyme in yeast is the sucker wot grabs the 2H2O2 and breaks it down into 2H2O + O2. The rest of the cell then absorbs the O2. Being a catalyst, it's not strictly a reactant and should not change - except perhaps for extremely high doses of H2O2... but I am curious about this.

I'll try and do a split batch shortly, but also trying to do one thing at a time...


----------



## technobabble66

Phoney said:


> I once read a many, many page long thread on HBT (I think) on using H2O2 for oxygenation of wort, there were comprehensive experiments done and smartpants with chemistry degree's chiming in and the general consensus was that it was a silly idea. Stick to real oxygen or shaking.


Hey Phoney, is this the thread on HBT you're referring to?
I've just gone through it. I'd suggest it's not actually that productive a conversation really.
It was basically concluded by a poster who said he was a chemist and it was a stupid idea. He seemed to have a firm idea on some of the unpredictable and potentially damaging chemistry involved in using H2O2 and left it there.
There was also some input from a guy saying he had a biology background and basically H2O2 was damaging to both the cell walls but also the DNA.
I'd be reluctant to completely disregard their opinions and say they're wrong, but they definitely seem to have looked at a very narrow aspect of what is going on with the H2O2 technique and decided a firm conclusion from that. I have a Biochemistry/Molecular Biology background and i'd be fairly confident in assuming things are a lot more complex than simply deciding H2O2 can kill/damage living cells and could react with the components of the wort. Note that i'm aware they are still valid points, so i'm not disregarding these issues. To be fair to the 2nd guy i mentioned, he does point out that most organisms form proteins to degrade Reactive Oxidative Species so he does seem to appreciate some of the complexity at play as well.

There's also the minor technicality that a paper was published a year after that thread (in 2012) that illustrated the rapid degradation of H2O2 by Baker's Yeast, and convinced me that this H2O2 thing might actually be viable without damaging the yeast or the wort.

EDIT: This is the paper i'm referring to.

I'd also point to the enormous shit storm that occurred around the belief of cubing/no-chill being impractical/dangerous until enough people tried it and survived, and went on to produce award winning beers. Botulism, anyone?
I'm not saying i'm totally convinced on the H2O2 technique. However, the science behind it is quite plausible - both in effect and "safety" (i.e.: no damage to yeast/wort) aspects - and initial results seem at least ok. I don't think any of us _as yet_ have reported a *good* comparison of results between an H2O2 batch and one without (& preferably one done with O2). But there's at least a few initial reports of batches that haven't gone bad. Much more work to be done! (probably by Peteru, as my process won't support good comparisons - i.e.: no parallel ferments, etc).


And @Manticle, i'd definitely agree: lag time & krausen are no real indicator of best fermentation at all (it's just all i had to report  ).
From some more recent reading i've done, it can actually be the case that a shorter lag phase and a rapid krausen formation can indicate a stressed and less adapted yeast. So i'd further agree the only way the gauge the success/improvement or failure of this technique with be in attenuation rate and extent, plus the "cleanliness" of the finished beer.
Hence, more testing required.

EDIT: @Adr, just went through that paper. V interesting, and thanks v much for linking it. What i found most relevant was the speed of the yeast response - all reacting within minutes, and production of the enzymes done and finished within 30-60mins. And also the flowchart of what's enhanced/repressed in the biochemistry pathways:



Seems like the TCA cycle, GMP, polyamine & ethanol are repressed; whereas Glycerol metabolism & NADPH is increased.
TBH, i'm not sure what the consequences would be of all that, with regards to what we're interested in. But the fact ethanol is repressed and that also what occurs during the growth/adaption phase (which is what we want to enhance) is maybe slightly reassuring it's not too bad. :mellow:
Probably the main reassurance is the fact the response is so rapid and, most importantly, the production of the enzymes relating to the stress response drop back within an hour or so. To me this suggests the yeast is likely to be only temporarily affected or "stressed" by the presence of H2O2, after which it returns to a "normal" state and proceeds to adapt & multiply B)


----------



## GalBrew

I'm hearing a lot of blather on either side at the moment. Some proper experiments to work out if it is beneficial or not is in order. It may be the case that it is neither of any benefit nor is it detrimental. We are all dealing in anecdotes at the minute.

Does anyone have access to qPCR and has primers for an array of yeast stress genes? Would be interesting to see how the 'low' concentration of peroxide affects the yeasties.


----------



## Adr_0

GalBrew said:


> I'm hearing a lot of blather on either side at the moment. Some proper experiments to work out if it is beneficial or not is in order. It may be the case that it is neither of any benefit nor is it detrimental. We are all dealing in anecdotes at the minute.
> Does anyone have access to qPCR and has primers for an array of yeast stress genes? Would be interesting to see how the 'low' concentration of peroxide affects the yeasties.


You're actually hearing a lot of theory put forward by scientists and engineers, and a couple of experiments, which have perhaps not been that well controlled.

Why don't you do a controlled experiment and enlighten us? 

I'm going to do a split batch of H2O2 and no O2/H2O2 with dry yeast at some point but probably not in the next week.


----------



## GalBrew

Adr_0 said:


> You're actually hearing a lot of theory put forward by scientists and engineers, and a couple of experiments, which have perhaps not been that well controlled.
> 
> Why don't you do a controlled experiment and enlighten us?
> 
> I'm going to do a split batch of H2O2 and no O2/H2O2 with dry yeast at some point but probably not in the next week.


I think we have sufficiently fleshed the theory out around the potential actions of hydrogen peroxide in wort. What we need now is some data. Now I will freely admit that I have neither the equipment nor the inclination to do this justice, but to convince this scientist of the merits of hydrogen peroxide additions to fermenting wort I would like to know the following:

1. How does the addition of hydrogen peroxide affect DO levels in the wort?

2. How does the addition of hydrogen peroxide affect the number and/or vitality of yeast in the fermenting wort?

3. How does the addition of hydrogen peroxide affect the degree and rate of attenuation?

I am of course open to any other ideas. I look forward to seeing your results. The only issue I would put forward is using dry yeast. Most dry yeast manufacturers suggest that using oxygen is not required due to the 'health' (energy reserves, etc) of the yeast when they are dried. A liquid yeast would be a better choice as they are not in prime condition when we get them and benefit from a starter. 

Anyhow, good luck. I'll pipe down now.


----------



## mstrelan

Yeah I wouldn't trust any experiments that didn't have temp control. 20-24? I bet it got hotter than that.


----------



## Jack of all biers

peteru said:


> The entry cost for H2O2 method is under $10 for at least 10 batches, if you are happy with pharmaceutical grade H2O2.
> 
> The Gold Cross brand uses phosphoric acid as the main stabiliser. It also contains phenacetin (precursor to paracetamol), which used to be sold as a pain-reliever up until to 80s. Phenacetin is no longer used as a pain reliever and has been replaced by paracetamol, due to concerns that in large doses it can cause kidney damage. I am not too concerned about the phenacetin content while I experiment with the technique. The exposure will be fairly minimal given the dilution rate and rate of consumption. If I decide to continue with the H2O2 technique, when I finish the bottle of H2O2 that I have, I'll try to source something without stabilisers. This will probably increase the cost and require more careful handling, thus defeating some of the advantages of the H2O2 method. It's still likely to have lower entry cost than compressed O2 and require less equipment.
> .....
> More experimentation is required. I have batch of MO/Columbus SMaSH ready for pitching tonight. I'll do the main batch with H2O2 and get a small sample without H2O2 next to it in the fermentation chamber. There's not much spare room, but I'll see what I can do.


Thanks for posting that Peteru. You're a champion and I am happy to conduct my experiments with the Gold Cross brand now as it's sold at my chemist. I have the capacity to brew 2 x 25L batches temp controlled, but just need some time to organise the time. You know what I mean.... :blink:



technobabble66 said:


> I'd also point to the enormous shit storm that occurred around the belief of cubing/no-chill being impractical/dangerous until enough people tried it and survived, and went on to produce award winning beers. Botulism, anyone?
> 
> I was thinking the same thing.
> 
> I don't think any of us _as yet_ have reported a *good* comparison of results between an H2O2 batch and one without (& preferably one done with O2).
> 
> I plan to and want some advice (see below)
> 
> EDIT: @Adr, just went through that paper. V interesting, and thanks v much for linking it. What i found most relevant was the speed of the yeast response - all reacting within minutes, and production of the enzymes done and finished within 30-60mins.
> Seems like the TCA cycle, GMP, polyamine & ethanol are repressed; whereas Glycerol metabolism & NADPH is increased.
> TBH, i'm not sure what the consequences would be of all that, with regards to what we're interested in. But the fact ethanol is repressed and that also what occurs during the growth/adaption phase (which is what we want to enhance) is maybe slightly reassuring it's not too bad. :mellow:
> Probably the main reassurance is the fact the response is so rapid and, most importantly, the production of the enzymes relating to the stress response drop back within an hour or so. To me this suggests the yeast is likely to be only temporarily affected or "stressed" by the presence of H2O2, after which it returns to a "normal" state and proceeds to adapt & multiply B)
> 
> Thanks for roughly translating that paper. It was really hard going there and my understanding was at about 5% level. Not sure it is all that definitive an answer one way or the other though. It of course also doesn't answer the question of potential oxidation of the wort that I have, but experimentation with different periods of storage, taken into account as one variable, may answer that to some extent (to the extent of home brew standards anyway). Hope this makes sense.





Adr_0 said:


> I still go back to my dosage argument - it's a little similar to zinc: too much zinc is toxic to yeast isn't it?
> 
> I would like to get my hands on this study as it sounds interesting:
> http://www.jbc.org/content/273/35/22480.full
> 
> The gist of that one is that quite a lot of eukaryotes have defense mechanisms for H2O2 as it's something they encounter quite a lot in nature, believe it or not. They need to still be able to function under oxidative stress. That article appears to suggest Saccharomyces cerivisae is one of those beasts.
> 
> The catalase enzyme in yeast is the sucker wot grabs the 2H2O2 and breaks it down into 2H2O + O2. The rest of the cell then absorbs the O2. Being a catalyst, it's not strictly a reactant and should not change - except perhaps for extremely high doses of H2O2... but I am curious about this.
> 
> I'll try and do a split batch shortly, but also trying to do one thing at a time...


So, I plan to do a bit of experiment with H2O2 on my next batch (which may take a couple of weeks to find the time to do, so my results may take a while). I'm looking for any tips or pointers or variables to take into account.

I plan on doing a simple SMaSH with either Vienna or Pils malt to OG1050, Hallertau Pacific to ~25IBU and 2 x identical liquid Ale yeast packs (undecided at this stage which, so am open to suggestion)* 

I will make up 50L wort using my usual equipment and process. A single infusion mash at 65C. After the wort is boiled and cooled to pitching temp it will be split into 2 x 25L batches in separate fermenters. 1 x fermenter will be shaken for aeration (4 mins ish) and 1 x yeast packet will be pitched (further thorough shaking). The other batch won't be shaken at all and all care will be taken to get the wort from kettle to fermenter without splashing or aeration (hose from kettle to bottom of fermenter). It will have yeast pack added, stirred and then add 10gm H2O2 (apprx. 11ppm O2 as per Adro's calcs)**. 

Ferment both brews at 20C in temp controlled fridge, making notes at 12 hourly marks. Once brews are finished, bottle*** as per usual method (bulk prime). Test brews when bright (apprx 2 week mark) and compare. Compare a bottle of each every two weeks until they run out (I will need a lot of self restraint for this if the brews turn out good). This last one is to see if any oxidation shows itself over a period of time in either of both brews.

* I'm wanting to use Ale yeast for two reasons. To keep it simpler and relevant for most home brewers, but also to counter any chance of faults presenting because of under oxygenated wort in the shaken fermenter being a massive variable to the experiment.

**Can this be checked please.

***Bottling because my keg set up is still only a dream, but also because it is more relevant to most HB's (although that is changing quickly I've noticed). I know this adds a variable of increased risk of oxygenation when bottling, but both will go through the same process and I've never detected an oxidised beer yet. 5 years for a RIS was the longest storage so far. Although, maybe 5L of each will go into my 2 x mini kegs to christen them, but we'll see how organised I am.


----------



## Zorco

technobabble66 said:


> I'd also point to the enormous shit storm that occurred around the belief of cubing/no-chill being impractical/dangerous until enough people tried it and survived, and went on to produce award winning beers. Botulism, anyone?


Hops fucks bots


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## MHB

**
I did a rough check on the calculation, I get 9mL to add 10ppm of O2 to 25L using 6%W/V, 10mL would add about 11ppm.
I think the W/V (weight by Volume) which appears to be the standard way of expressing the strength of an H2O2 solution, rather than the more common W/W or V/V might be causing a small difference in the calculations, but not enough to worry about.

Considering how rapidly H2O2 degrades when in contact with organic chemicals, I would consider adding the peroxide 10 minutes or so before pitching the yeast - rather than after pitching. This should cause the peroxide to break down and supply dissolved O2 by the time the yeast is added, I would expect this to reduce the chance of the peroxide attacking the yeast.

NB - I still have questions about how good an idea it is to add a really powerful oxidiser to a wort, chemically a lot different to adding gaseous Oxygen. Someone with a DO meter needs to do some experimenting. If the peroxide is reacting with wort constituents differently to O2 gas it should show up as lower than expected dissolved oxygen readings.
I still have questions about the reaction with lipids and the effects on staling and head formation/retention. Something that we will only find out by experimenting and testing.
Mark


----------



## Jack of all biers

Thanks Mark, I thought I was around the mark and yes 6% solution if I can get it. I'm pretty sure the Gold cross brand is 6% W/W not W/V.

I was thinking that by adding the H2O2 after pitching the yeast it would have less time to potentially oxidize the wort. I was planning on adding it whilst the stirring in of the yeast was still going on (TBH the main reason for stirring).

I too have some questions about the method, but without a DO meter, I won't be the guy who can answer that one for everyone. I hope to see what happens with as little bias as possible (obviously my taste buds will be one of the most subjective parts of the test). I'll make sure I take note of head formation/retention in the finished product for each bottle tested.

EDIT - No, just checked it's W/V, but as you said, not much diff


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## technobabble66

MHB said:


> ... I would consider adding the peroxide 10 minutes or so before pitching the yeast - rather than after pitching...


Wrong. Needs to be added AFTER PITCHING the yeast. The idea is the yeast actually protects the wort. It responds to the presence of the oxidising H2O2 by producing catalase, which rapidly breaks down the H2O2 to form O2 in solution.




Jack of all biers said:


> I was thinking that by adding the H2O2 after pitching the yeast it would have less time to potentially oxidize the wort. I was planning on adding it whilst the stirring in of the yeast was still going on (TBH the main reason for stirring).


Correct. I'd be more tempted to add the H2O2 more like 10mins after adding the yeast, so it has a chance to wake up a little.


Now in terms of your out-lined experiment, a few points spring to mind.
1) Good choice of recipe. (Unlike Brulosophy,) it's seems smart to use a simple recipe that isn't hopped to the hilt, to allow any flaws to be easily apparent.
2) Use a liquid yeast or yeast cake. I'd agree with Galbrew's comment above, it's suggested/recommended (by the manufacturers) that dry yeast is prepared in a way that it doesn't need oxygenation, and in fact oxygenation is likely to impede the yeast.
3) i'd be tempted to use a lager yeast, as a simple lager is likely to show flaws more readily. However, it also means more other stuff could go wrong, so maybe the first comparison should be kept simple as an ale. Either would be fine, really.
4) Why limit the estimated addition of O2 to 10 or 11ppm? I believe (from memory) the saturation limit is 12ppm, so why not take it to that? (so basically i'd take it to 11-12mL of your 6% solution.

Everything else seemed fine, i think.

Not sure what the best choice of yeast would be. I'm thinking the options would seem to be either a simple neutral finish, like WLP-001 or 1056; or go for one that has more character (to show the yeast performance more?) and possibly is a little harder to get to attenuation, such as the English yeasts like 1469/1187/1028/1275/wlp023/wlp005. One other that springs to mind that might suit the recipe well is a kolsch like WLP-029. Sorry, my breadth & depth of knowledge on yeasts is limited


----------



## MHB

technobabble66 said:


> Wrong. Needs to be added AFTER PITCHING the yeast. The idea is the yeast actually protects the wort. It responds to the presence of the oxidising H2O2 by producing catalase, which rapidly breaks down the H2O2 to form O2 in solution.


I think you might find that the situation is a lot more complex than it looks. At least too complex to be so emphatic - try both options before laying down the law.
Mark


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## technobabble66

Fair enough [emoji4]
The caps lock is not meant to be a put down on you MHB (apologies for it sounding like that!). 
Rather, it's meant to highlight what *seems* to *most likely* be the better practice, as it seems to be forgotten every second page of this thread. 


Though it's definitely only theoretical, the issue *seems* fairly cut & dry. 
Adding before pitching will likely infer no benefit and all of the risks: H2O2 will potentially react with the wort and still likely be present in high amounts to stress the yeast if that's what will happen, only now the yeast is possibly in a more dormant state and might take longer to produce/release catalase. 
Adding after pitching (especially a little time after pitching) should at least minimize the risk of oxidation to the wort, if not also minimize the risk to the yeast. 
I appreciate it sounds wrong given the antimicrobial uses of H2O2, but we've got to keep in mind the dilution were using combined with the function of the catalase. 

Having said all of that, again I'd agree: currently it's still all just theory. A variety of good comparisons need to be done to verify any of this. [emoji6]


----------



## Adr_0

MHB said:


> I think you might find that the situation is a lot more complex than it looks. At least too complex to be so emphatic - try both options before laying down the law.
> Mark


Indeed.

I don't have the facility for O2/air injection, so I'm going to try for (massive) 3L batches with the following tests:
- adding H2O2 before pitching yeast
- added H2O2 after pitching yeast
- just pitching yeast... perhaps some sort of shaking should happen with this one.

I'll have to try this DO standard too, though I'd probably go 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 if possible:
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/91478-low-dissolved-oxygen-brewing-techniques/?p=1388803

I need to work on the structure of it and exactly how I demonstrate one thing or another. I'm particularly curious about the decomposition without yeast/catalase, but it's also conflicting with DO measurement if yeast is added first - perhaps it will be captured with high resolution (20 minute?) DO samples.

SG should be easy enough to do.

On top of the DO, there have to be sensory tests: perhaps visual indication will be good in the second test, but tasting/smell should be part of it too.

I also need to figure out a mutation test, and how to ensure the right amount of yeast to add to the 2nd/3rd generation, and do a sensory comparison of a 1st gen for example.


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## manticle

Also need comparison between o2 and h2o2.


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## Jack of all biers

manticle said:


> Also need comparison between o2 and h2o2.


Absolutely. Any volunteers? Gold cross H2O2 only costs about $4. Or alternatively, anyone know someone willing to lend an O2 setup for experiments?


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## Moad

I was thinking today the thread title needed to be changed, thanks to whoever fixed it up! 

I will volunteer to run side by side but won't be able to do it for a month or so


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## Jack of all biers

We have one volunteer. Everyone loves a volunteer. Good on you Moad. It's all good re a month or so. We're not getting paid for this and we all have commitments. My results may not be fully known for some months (re any oxidation) unless of course it happens quickly.


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## Jack of all biers

technobabble66 said:


> Correct. I'd be more tempted to add the H2O2 more like 10mins after adding the yeast, so it has a chance to wake up a little.
> 
> Will do.
> 
> Now in terms of your out-lined experiment, a few points spring to mind.
> 1) Good choice of recipe. (Unlike Brulosophy,) it's seems smart to use a simple recipe that isn't hopped to the hilt, to allow any flaws to be easily apparent.
> 
> My thoughts also. Keep it simple and less to influences on the end result.
> 
> 2) Use a liquid yeast or yeast cake. I'd agree with Galbrew's comment above, it's suggested/recommended (by the manufacturers) that dry yeast is prepared in a way that it doesn't need oxygenation, and in fact oxygenation is likely to impede the yeast.
> 
> Yep. Already posted I'd use 2 liquid yeast packs.
> 
> 3) i'd be tempted to use a lager yeast, as a simple lager is likely to show flaws more readily. However, it also means more other stuff could go wrong, so maybe the first comparison should be kept simple as an ale. Either would be fine, really.
> 
> Yeah, I really wanted to keep it as simple as possible with less variables. I see doing a lager comparison maybe more appropriate with an O2 comparison. That way it is comparing apples with apples, as it can't be said that the comparative sample didn't have enough dissolved oxygen from shaking.
> 
> 4) Why limit the estimated addition of O2 to 10 or 11ppm? I believe (from memory) the saturation limit is 12ppm, so why not take it to that? (so basically i'd take it to 11-12mL of your 6% solution.
> 
> Purely because a 100ml bottle will make 10 brews. Given it's an Ale, maybe I should go for less to make it a fair comparison to the purely aerated batch, that might if I'm lucky get to 6ppm. But then if I push the H2O2 higher, there is more chance of things going wrong with the yeast or oxidation of wort. So with the 11ppm O2 conversion level, I will more likely detect any faults easier. So my logic is that if I can get away with a value higher than the ideal 8ppm for Ale, and don't taste any faults, then we will know we can scale it back for the different needs of top or bottom fermenting yeasts. Make sense?
> 
> Everything else seemed fine, i think.
> 
> Not sure what the best choice of yeast would be. I'm thinking the options would seem to be either a simple neutral finish, like WLP-001 or 1056; or go for one that has more character (to show the yeast performance more?) and possibly is a little harder to get to attenuation, such as the English yeasts like 1469/1187/1028/1275/wlp023/wlp005. One other that springs to mind that might suit the recipe well is a kolsch like WLP-029. Sorry, my breadth & depth of knowledge on yeasts is limited
> 
> After a bit of thought, I'm thinking Wyeast 1469-West Yorkshire. Not used it, but purely because of the description of creating malty balanced beers and is highly flocculent. I may also go with Maris Otter as I can get it cheaper than the Vienna.


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## peteru

The last couple of trials I have done were all with reasonably simple SMaSH beers. Gladfield American Ale + US Centennial and Simpsons Maris Otter + US Columbus.

The one thing that I have been keeping constant is the yeast. It's always US-05 that has been harvested from a yeast cake back in June 2016. I have two 1L bottles of rinsed yeast. Each time I do a batch I pick one of the bottles (alternating between them), pour off the clear(ish) liquid from the top then add the white healthy yeast layer to some starter wort (saved from whatever I'm about to ferment) on the stirplate. I then add water to the remainder of the yeast and trub in the storage bottle, agitate well and sit it in the fridge for about an hour or two. This lets the trub settle and I pour the remaining yeast in suspension into the stirplate vessel. I then top up with more wort. I usually run the stirplate for around 10-20 hours, then turn it off and let it settle until I can see a distinct layer of trub vs suspended yeast (sometimes I also get a clear layer on top). If it looks like I have a healthy dense starter, I'll pitch most of the yeast, but save some in the bottom of the starter flask to step up and store in the fridge for future use. If the starter looks a bit thin, I'll fridge it so that I can separate the "beer", trub and yeast layers and then step up the yeast layer with another stirplate session. I no-chill/cube all my wort (because I hate using and cleaning the Grainfather counterflow chiller), which gives me plenty of flexibility as to when to pitch the yeast.

Totally unscientific, but it actually works fairly well in practice. One of these days I'll have a hop and yeast freezer for long term storage of yeast that has gone through fewer generations, but so far what I have has exhibited no flavour degradation or drift. I guess that as a result of this yeast pitching practice, I probably overpitch, or at least start with a fairly good and active yeast population. I fully expect that the addition of H2O2 could cause some potential yeast cell death, but I also suspect that the catalase reaction will work in favour of the yeast and wort, causing the H2O2 to split into O2 + H2O fairly rapidly, thus increasing the DO and effectively getting me to the same point that adding O2 directly to the wort would get me.

I find it strange that people are questioning the oxidative reactions in wort when using H2O2, but not O2. Surely if O2 in the wort is going to cause issues, it doesn't really matter if it got there by bubbles from an airstone or hitched the ride on a molecule of water. Sure, the chemical reactions can be complex (the chemistry force was never strong with this one, and biochemistry is just black magic), but the proof is in the beverage served at the end of the process. And from that point of view, adding 10-12mL of 6% hydrogen peroxide to a 22-25L batch of beer has caused no harm. Now I just need to convince myself that it provides a benefit. It could just be that I'm doing everything else right and the hydrogen peroxide is a placebo! :unsure: 

Or it could be that I've actually done the ground work on an alternative oxygenation method for home brewing purposes, in which case I call the naming rights. 

P.S. - Although I am a scientist (I do have a B.Sc.), I am also a pragmatic. My approach is that rather than dismiss an idea because there is no literature to confirm that it *should* work, I'd rather figure out why something *appears* to work. Sadly, my scientific background is in neither, chemistry, biochemistry nor biology. But hey, if my tinkering can narrow the search space so that the experts can look deeper at the relevant factors, then I'm happy to be a part of the discovery process.

And the beer is good. :chug:


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## manticle

Jack of all biers said:


> We have one volunteer. Everyone loves a volunteer. Good on you Moad. It's all good re a month or so. We're not getting paid for this and we all have commitments. My results may not be fully known for some months (re any oxidation) unless of course it happens quickly.


I'd be willing but don't yet have an oxygenation setup and I really feel measuring DO levels of the same worts using nothing, shaking, h202 and 02 injection is required to get a good indication.

Then blind triangle tasting.

Not sure how seriously expensive DO meters are but maybe if smurto were encouraged to be involved somehow we could get some quantitative analysis.


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## technobabble66

peteru said:


> ...I find it strange that people are questioning the oxidative reactions in wort when using H2O2, but not O2. Surely if O2 in the wort is going to cause issues, it doesn't really matter if it got there by bubbles from an airstone or hitched the ride on a molecule of water....


OK, i can chime in here for the nay-sayers. There is a difference in the reactivity between O2 gas and H2O2 delivered oxygen.
The issue is not the O2 itself so much as the reaction of H2O2 --> O• + H2O.
That single oxygen atom is more highly reactive than O2 and cause oxidative reactions quite easily, until in binds to another O• to form O2 gas. This should happen very rapidly, but the tiny fraction of time in between involves a more oxidative state. O2 gas is also highly reactive, but not quite to the same extent as the single oxygen radical.
THIS is why i'd argue that the yeast needs to be added to the wort before the H2O2, because i'd be fairly confident in assuming catalase works by decomposing 2 of the the H2O2's together to allow the smooth transition to 2x H2O molecules and an O2 molecule.
The reason i'd assume this is that if it didn't, there'd be little point in having the catalase in the first place, in fact it'd be quite dangerous for the microorganism as it's suddenly going to be creating a truckload of O• radicals around itself if the catalase simply decomposes a single peroxide by itself (does that make sense?). Furthermore, the creation of O•'s near the catalase enzyme would likely cause the rapid destruction of the catalase. Again, a fairly pointless strategy having an enzyme that destroys itself (in a random manner - given the unpredictability of what the radical would attack). This is obviously an assumption currently on my part as i haven't found a paper explaining the exact reaction kinetics of catalase yet. However, i'm fairly happy with the reasoning behind it: evolution generally doesn't tolerate stupid :lol:

I'm also happy to acknowledge this downside of the peroxide method - that the O• radical could damage both the wort and the yeast (and agree with peteru's comment about it above). However, i'm also happy to think there's a very good chance the damage is negligible if the catalase is allowed to quickly decompose the H2O2 and there is only a tiny amount of H2O2 being used in the first place. Both of which are the case here.

Again, i'm happy with the sciencey stuff, it now really needs to have empirical evidence to indicate the veracity of the process. Namely, the production of clean and fully fermented/attenuated beer, preferably with yeast that can hold true in multiple generations without mutations.
-----------------------------

On a slightly separate note, peteru, that process of your's above sounds totally fine to me. Generally, I think if you're getting successful, clean fermentations from many generations of a yeast that holds true to characteristics of the strain, then you're doing it right. 
-----------------------------

FWIW due to the ease of it, another bonus of the peroxide method is i generally try to do a 2nd addition of H2O2 ~8-12hrs after pitching (~1/2 to 2/3 the initial volume). Takes ~60secs, including time to go to the fridge to get the bottle: Whip off the glad wrap, quick squirt, 5 second stir, back on with the glad wrap. Job done.


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## Killer Brew

Jack of all biers said:


> Absolutely. Any volunteers? Gold cross H2O2 only costs about $4. Or alternatively, anyone know someone willing to lend an O2 setup for experiments?


I'm in adelaide and have an O2 set up. Happy to get involved.


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## GalBrew

On the topic of catalase, there is no need to guess at the stoichiometry of its reactions, it's pretty well documented. Just google free radical detoxification pathways and it will take the guesswork out. I'm still not convinced by any measure that yeast based catalase which is located intracellularly will get much of chance to do much before oxygen radical react with the wort and or the cell membrane of the yeast themselves.


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## technobabble66

The papers I've read indicate the catalase is released extracellularly by the yeast to neutralize it's surroundings.


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## GalBrew

technobabble66 said:


> The papers I've read indicate the catalase is released extracellularly by the yeast to neutralize it's surroundings.


But will it neutralise oxygen radicals before it oxidises wort components?


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## technobabble66

From the internets:
"Catalase breaks down and destroys hydrogen peroxide in two steps. The first step involves the catalase removing and binding one oxygen atom and releasing the rest of the hydrogen peroxide molecule as water. The second step is the catalase breaking down another hydrogen peroxide molecule by releasing oxygen gas and water."
So yes, it breaks down the H2O2 in a way that prevents the O• radical from interacting with other components of the wort or yeast.

The million dollar question actually is whether the H2O2 reacts *significantly* with components of the wort to oxidise them *while waiting* to be decomposed by the catalase.
The couple of studies i've seen indicate most H2O2 should be mainly neutralised within 20-30mins, and completed within 1 hr. So it's a small window for anything detrimental to occur.
However, the window is definitely there and it seems unknown as to whether anything significant would occur between the 0.0005L of H2O2 and the ~20L of wort. Given the time frame and the tiny quantity, i'm inclined to assume it'll be minimal. Real testing and comparisons are needed to go from here.


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## Jack of all biers

technobabble66 said:


> The million dollar question actually is whether the H2O2 reacts *significantly* with components of the wort to oxidise them *while waiting* to be decomposed by the catalase.
> The couple of studies i've seen indicate most H2O2 should be mainly neutralised within 20-30mins, and completed within 1 hr. So it's a small window for anything detrimental to occur.
> However, the window is definitely there and it seems unknown as to whether anything significant would occur between the 0.0005L of H2O2 and the ~20L of wort. Given the time frame and the tiny quantity, i'm inclined to assume it'll be minimal. Real testing and comparisons are needed to go from here.


And it is for this reason I have included the painful process (for me) of only testing a bottle of each every two weeks. Imagine if the H2O2 beer oxidises after 2 months! That's going to hurt when the majority of 25L tastes like cardboard. But in the name of science, I'm willing to take that risk :drinks:


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## Jack of all biers

Killer Brew said:


> I'm in adelaide and have an O2 set up. Happy to get involved.


Hi Killer Brew. You able to do a comparison yourself between O2 and H2O2 or only willing to assist with supplying an O2 squirt to someone else's brew (ie me)?


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## MHB

Been doing a bit of reading up on peroxide and yeast - I wont be putting any into beer any time soon!

The enzyme Catalase is a part of the yeasts defence against naturally occurring peroxides that can harm the yeast, like any enzyme it has an optimum temperature (~37oC) and an optimum pH 6.8-7.5. Both of these conditions are well outside the brewing conditions where anyone using peroxide would be working, like any other enzyme it wont work very well outside its optimum range.
Some of the enzyme might be excreted into the environment (the wort) but most is found in either the cell membrane or in the cell mitochondria where it can defend vital cell functions.

As someone mentioned above, natural selection is a very important and harsh master, yeast (and most other cells) have evolved Catalase to defend themselves from harm done by naturally occurring peroxides. The amount of peroxide that yeast could be expected to encounter is in the range of 1-0.1ppb, call it 0.5ppb give or take. we are talking about adding 10ppm (10,000ppb) or so. there is no conceivable way yeast will be equipped to handle 20,000 times as much as it evolved to cope with.

There is a wealth of difference between peroxide and oxygen.
Similarities are always suspect, but lets see if this puts it in perspective; we want some Chloride in our wort lets say 50ppm is a good thing, if we added 50ppm of Chlorine in the form of bleach we wouldn't expect the same result, in fact we can be fairly sure the yeast would die.
We also know peroxide is a steriliser, it reacts with most any organic chemical like a free radical ion (think O-), the breakdown product of the reaction is water and Oxygen. The result of adding bleach to chalk will leave chloride ions in solution, like the reaction with peroxide it isn't the end product that scares me it the process that takes us there that does all the harm.

There at threads on avoiding HSA, reducing O2 in packaging... All of them have in common the benefits of reducing Oxidative harm to the beer, after a lot of study I think adding peroxide is the exact opposite and will have all the negative effects associated with Oxygen harm.

I notice some commentary on the response on other fora, where the "Experts" jumped in and rained on the parade - from all I can gather very sensibly. 

Mark


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## Dave70

Sooo..
Did we settle on a 5 or 2 micron diffuser?


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## MHB

Nah you need a 3.5um stone - someone should start making them.
M


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## technobabble66

I believe 2 was meant to be fine. I assume the 5 you mention should've been 0.5 micron?


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## drsmurto

I've only very briefly skimmed the discussion on H2O2. 

A few points from a scientist whose research area involves H2O2 and O2 in juice/wine; similar situation holds with wort/beer.

Firstly, the reason why O2 is used and not H2O2 is that O2 can't react with organic compounds. This is what is called 'spin forbidden' and is a very fundamental principle of chemistry relating to the configuration of the electrons in the atom. It first reacts with transition metal ions to produce the superoxide radical which can then react with organic compounds. Yeast can mop up the oxygen very rapidly and in a medium that contains only trace amounts of reactive transition metals in the required oxidation state, it will do so before much, if any damage is caused by oxygen via the superoxide radical. We have measured the speed in which yeast uses up all the oxygen in juice and it is very fast, in the order of minutes. We can also measure oxidation markers to see what chemical effects are being caused by O2 introduction and the result is negligible. Our oxygen sensors measure down to ppb levels of oxygen.

This is not the case with hydrogen peroxide, it is very capable of reacting with organic compounds or just about anything it comes into contact with. This is not a selective process, you can't expect yeast to protect the wort from H2O2 as it cannot prevent every single molecule of H2O2 from colliding with other molecules in the wort. Adding an incredibly powerful oxidiser to your wort is not a particularly well thought out method of adding O2.

In regards to double dropping as a method of introducing oxygen into wort after fermentation has commenced, this is not something I have seen data on. I have, however, seen published data in a winemaking setting during what is referred to as a pumpover. This is done when a red wine is actively fermenting and is done to wet the cap (floating grape skins/seeds) to increase extraction of colour/tannin etc. To get any decent amount of oxygen in, a range of in-line devices were required to effectively draw oxygen into the liquid as it was passing through the pump, think spargers/venturis or even just 'cracking the fitting'. The physical act of splashing wine back into the ferment is very ineffective as the liquid isn't picking up any oxygen and the splashing impact is mitigated by the layer of CO2 protecting the wine.


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## technobabble66

Thank you for your explanation, DrS. Namely in the way O2 gas is cleaved and then processed/mopped up by the yeast
I'd have to concede that O2 gas seems a (much) superior way to add oxygenation. 



DrSmurto said:


> ... We have measured the speed in which yeast uses up all the oxygen in juice and it is very fast, in the order of minutes. We can also measure oxidation markers to see what chemical effects are being caused by O2 introduction and the result is negligible. Our oxygen sensors measure down to ppb levels of oxygen.
> ...


Just out of interest, have you done these tests for H2O2 additions?
I'm simply curious as to how significant that oxidation of wort by the peroxide is, considering the small amount used (~0.5mL in ~21L) and the variety of other elements of potential oxidation in our homebrewing process. 
Call me stubborn or persistent, but I'm merely wondering whether there could still be use of the peroxide as an option secondary to something better like O2 gas, given its simplicity of use & setup. 
Also whether the oxidation consequences would be enough to be detectable. 
Clearly the O2 gas is best/better practice, but I'd be keen to more conclusively know that the peroxide is not a viable ghetto option that'll still provide some benefits for minimal costs and flaws. 

Edit: posted before adding half the text [emoji52]

Edit 2: if the only concern is oxidation of wort, could peroxide still be an easy option for oxygenation of starters, where the supernatant/liquid is decanted off and discarded?


----------



## rude

Might change my sanitiser as I use Hydrogen Peroxide

Usually hit the fermenter with it just before I pitch


----------



## drsmurto

Sulfite/sulfur dioxide is added to wine for 2 reasons. To protect the wine from microbial spoilage, which in combination with the low pH of wine provides protection (sulfite exists in 3 forms depending on the pH - sulfur dioxide, bisulfite, sulfite). The other reason is it is an anti-oxidant. It is there to protect the wine from oxygen. The vast majority of wine is bottled with no yeast present at all so a defence against O2 is needed. As I mentioned previously, O2 get's converted to the superoxide radical via transition metals. This is converted to hydrogen peroxide. At this point, sulfite reacts with it to remove it from the wine. If there is no sulfite present, the superoxide is further reduced by another transition metal to an even more reactive molecule, the hydroxide radical. This, for example, reacts with ethanol to produce acetaldehyde. The last step in this reaction is known as the 'Fenton Reaction'.

So if you are adding hydrogen peroxide to wort you have skipped one reduction step, also known as the rate limiting step, and provided the system with a highly reactive molecule that otherwise would not exist in any substantial quantity if you had added oxygen. We don't measure H2O2 directly, we use the reduction in sulfite to measure the amount of hydrogen peroxide produced and the kinetics of the reaction. There is plenty of research in this area and it is ongoing. 

I can't stress this enough. H2O2 is a very powerful oxidant, it will react with any molecule it comes in to contact with. I use it to 'digest' wine (it breaks apart the complex molecules and within hours, red wine looks like the palest white wine), clean glassware. In combination with concentrated sulfuric acid, it's used to etch glass. It is used to power rockets. It's one of those chemicals you treat with the utmost respect, particularly if you are using 30% or greater concentrations. 



technobabble66 said:


> Thank you for your explanation, DrS. Namely in the way O2 gas is cleaved and then processed/mopped up by the yeast
> I'd have to concede that O2 gas seems a (much) superior way to add oxygenation.
> 
> Just out of interest, have you done these tests for H2O2 additions?
> I'm simply curious as to how significant that oxidation of wort by the peroxide is, considering the small amount used (~0.5mL in ~21L) and the variety of other elements of potential oxidation in our homebrewing process.
> Call me stubborn or persistent, but I'm merely wondering whether there could still be use of the peroxide as an option secondary to something better like O2 gas, given its simplicity of use & setup.
> Also whether the oxidation consequences would be enough to be detectable.
> Clearly the O2 gas is best/better practice, but I'd be keen to more conclusively know that the peroxide is not a viable ghetto option that'll still provide some benefits for minimal costs and flaws.
> 
> Edit: posted before adding half the text [emoji52]
> 
> Edit 2: if the only concern is oxidation of wort, could peroxide still be an easy option for oxygenation of starters, where the supernatant/liquid is decanted off and discarded?


----------



## nosco

I'll get to the point of my extended question that may not have an answer. Does yeast use o2 more slowly at colder temps?

So if I have slowly chilled a beer to lager temps, say 4c, and then want re-use the yeast slurry for another ferment after racking off the beer. So as not to shock the yeast I keep it at 4c and re pitch it into some oxygenated 4c wort (is that necessary to pitch @4c?) and let it free rise to ferment temp. Will the o2 come out of solution before the yeast has woken up enough to use the o2? o2 later at a higher temp? Also considering that the o2 will dissolve (?) more easily in colder wort?

Edit: If its used in minutes as you say Dr S is it still the case at lager temps. Free rising to ferment temp could take hours (in this heat at least).


----------



## MHB

nosco - there are a couple of interesting points in there.
Basically as a rule in chemistry and biology everything happen slower colder and faster warmer, with the solubility of the O2 being the obvious exception.

I would be very tempted to add nutrients, including Oxygen, at or close to the temperature you are planning on brewing at. For lager this is generally going to be in the 8-12oC range. yeast hates sudden changes in temperature and everything we can do to keep yeast healthy and happy is a good option.
I would only oxygenate a starter in the presence of other nutrients (wort) and when the yeast is at or near pitching temperatures, same if pitching the yeast slurry directly into the wort.

You would be way better off lagering and storing yeast at 0oC (give or take one).


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## nosco

Thanks MHB. Good to know Im thinking along the right lines. Hopefully my brewing will follow suit :unsure: . My current practice is to pitch and then oxygenate. It makes sense to me but I have improved my o2 setup so I have a few options now.

Ill go to 4c to get the yeast and then 0c for the beer. I dont want to risk freezing the yeast.


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## nosco

So to recap on that question. Subtle changes (up or down) in temp are good for yeast but there is no real reason to pitch at 4c. Its maybe better to let the decanted yeast free rise to about 7c, pitch into 7c wort and then oxygenate. That's what Im going with.

Edit: Hopefully my fridge, equipment, kids, wife and lack of sleep will let me achieve that


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## Killer Brew

Jack of all biers said:


> Hi Killer Brew. You able to do a comparison yourself between O2 and H2O2 or only willing to assist with supplying an O2 squirt to someone else's brew (ie me)?


Happy to help out with the O2. Might leave the experimentation to those who have paved the way.


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## Jack of all biers

Killer Brew said:


> Happy to help out with the O2. Might leave the experimentation to those who have paved the way.


Thanks. I will crack on with the experiment with the Ale as per my earlier post and see if the oxidation hits taste thresholds by the time it's all finished. If that experiment shows no discernible oxidation flavours, then and only then would I be keen to conduct an O2 H2O2 comparison. If that happens, I'll PM you to see if you are still keen to help out (maybe months from now).

DrSmurto clarified exactly what I suspected would be likely with the breakdown of H2O2 to H2O and O. Whilst, I know some oxidation would be likely, I am still keen to do this comparison to see just how much oxidation occurs and how long it takes to show in the beer. Call it curiosity of a potential ghetto method or what ever you will, but it's going to cost me a few bucks and time doing something I enjoy.

EDIT - If the H2O2 beer gets oxidised quick then I can always use it as slug/snail bait in a bowl or two in the garden. They love it. Too DEATH. Haaaaa, haa, haaaa, haa. 

2nd EDIT - I don't like slugs okay. Drowning them in beer seems like the most humane way to me. :drinks:


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## Stouter

Some great discussion going on here, good too see, sensational effort.
When just asked, I explained to the wife about how there are blokes on his forum that are scientists, leaders of various industries, and philosophers discussing the merits of putting air in beer. Makes little old, average joe me look pretty special oxygenating my wort hey!


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## Lionman

Just ordered a reg and stone off eBay. Will oxygenate my next batch with Tradeflame O2 from Bunnings.


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## sp0rk

Finally biting the bullet and enquiring about a Coregas O2 cylinder, if my local supplier doesn't sting me too much I'll try and pick the gear up this week

*edit*
Nope, they don't do Coregas swap and go like Bunnings does and I'm not paying rental
Looks like I'll get a Brewman setup


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## Jack of all biers

Wort is down and cooling in the cubes. I went with No-chill, as I ran out of time and... well.... I didn't want to be up to midnight cleaning my equipment. Again!! I will cool to fermenting temps tomorrow, while I'm at work and in the evening give the H2O2 experiment a go. I wasn't able to get the 6% solution as they were out of stock, but I got 3% Gold Cross, so will give it a crack with that. Full recipe and method to follow, when some preliminary results are in. Till then...


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## technobabble66

Fwiw, just posted this in another thread on oxygenation.
It's an O2 test kit for aquariums, ~$28. range is ~2-8ppm.
Not sure if it'll suit what we need, but thought i'd mention it.


----------



## Jack of all biers

Okay, so preliminary results are in for H2O2 v Aeration (standard shake till you can shake no more) comparison experiment in temp controlled conditions at full batch volume.

The fermentation is almost complete (in yeast clean up mode now) and I will say the comparison experiment is a success, as it has achieved one result for a hypothesis I was looking to test. In short I can say that I don't believe that H2O2 adds a benefit to fermentation in the same way as O2 is reported to do.* The fermentation was NOT quicker than standard shaking aeration. It was NOT more complete with better attenuation and quicker brightening (clearing). The H2O2 batch did not do terribly, but it was by no means better than standard aeration. In fact H2O2 achieved just under in attenuation (72% v 78% so far at day 9) and produced more esters at the same temperature.

I've attached my full recipe notes below,** but have summarised some of what I think are the key points here.


Brews fermented with exact same yeast manufactured on exact same date bought cold and stored cold. Yeast calculators showed the viability to be 66% on the day of pitching but I think that is a massively conservative number (read - bunch of rubbish) as the results indicate otherwise so far.
H2O2 batch was 1 litre more than Aerated batch.
H2O2 batch had no splashing of any kind to minimise any variable of added O2 by other means. Aerated batch was splashed and shaken till I could do no more (3 min shake, I know I'm pathetically out of shape :unsure:
Temp control probe attached to outside wall of H2O2 fermenter, meaning the Aerated batch could have been a bee's appendage higher or lower, but not much of a variable.
Both fermentations appeared to begin around the same time (first noticed activity in both at 19 hours post pitch) and both appeared to behave the same up until first gravity reading (5 days).
At 5 days, the H2O2 batch had much more yeast in suspension and was 2 gravity points higher than the Aerated batch. The H2O2 batch had much stronger flavours and aromas that the Aerated batch, which together with the very cloudy suspended yeast appearance and the slightly higher gravity is likely an indicator of yeast stress. The H2O2 batch sample had a very dry to puckering after taste that I thought did not bode well for it.
At 9 days, the H2O2 batch had the same amount of very cloudy yeast in suspension, and was 3 gravity points higher than the Aerated batch, but both had gone lower than the predicted FG of 1015. The H2O2 batch sample taste and aroma were again much stronger than the Aerated batch, but both had cleared most of their green beer flavours and the H2O2 batch had lost the puckering after taste.

So in conclusion, I can't say that the H2O2 has ruined the fermentation stage or killed off all the yeast, but it is indicative that the H2O2 batch has attenuated lower (I know it's slight) and produced a yeast that seems to be under stress (especially as this is a highly flocculant variety).

Further updates will take place as planned with the testing for oxidation of the final product over the next months.

View attachment Vienna H2O2 experiment 26 02 17.docx


Milled grist




Brewery set up at Mash stage to show I have no fancy set up (all gravity set up)



Yeast blow out prior to second clean up at 56 hours



EDIT - * I say reported as I have never used O2 in brewing.

** Notes only complete up until today


----------



## peteru

Thank you very much for that report.

I have just today kegged (and bottled) the results of my side-by-side comparison. I did one batch with 10mL of 6% H2O2 and one batch with about 5 minutes of drill+paint stirrer aeration.

Both the fermentation process and the resulting aroma/flavour at bottling time were the same. Both batches ended up at the same FG and as far as I can tell got there at either the same time or within 24 hours of each other. I also observed that the H2O2 sample was cloudier than the aerated sample. The H2O2 sample seems to have slightly better head retention and lacing on the glass.

Based on this side-by-side comparison, I would conclude that there is no clearly visible benefit to using H2O2 vs vigorous aeration. I also don't think there is a detriment.

The only differences I could see (turbidity, lacing and head retention) can possibly be explained by the mechanical aspect of aeration, rather than the O2 content in the wort.

Not exactly the same results as yours, but the conclusion seems similar - H2O2 is not a silver bullet. Unfortunately I have no pure O2 experience to compare against. From all the comments in the forums, pure O2 gas should deliver a clear difference.


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## mstrelan

For another experiment you might like to compare H2O2 to no aeration. If you don't have O2 and can't be bothered to aerate is H2O2 an easy replacement for vigorous shaking?


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## Jack of all biers

mstrelan said:


> For another experiment you might like to compare H2O2 to no aeration. If you don't have O2 and can't be bothered to aerate is H2O2 an easy replacement for vigorous shaking?


Not going to prove anything in my opinion. Which is based on my suspicion that H2O2 did not produce much O2 to begin with in my test. It would be good if anyone who had an O2 meter did a couple of mini batches using H2O2 to test how much O2 is convert when added to wort plus yeast. Then someone who had the expertise to determine how much, if any yeast mutation occurs. With my results so far I can GUESS these, but can only say for sure that it seems similar to a barely aerated batch that I once did. I forgot to shake, but was poured from a minimum height (barely aerated). This one also struggled and had yeast hanging about in suspension for a long time (different yeast)


----------



## Jack of all biers

So, an update of the experiment with H2O2 compared to a traditionally Aerated batch at the two month mark.

My findings re fermentation are above, but I have been taste comparing every two weeks, or so for the last two months (but drinking bottles between comparison pairs :drinks: What?) and can say that there is little to no difference (except for one bottle) so far.

I'm not sold on the Yorkshire yeast (too much bread for me), but other than one H2O2 bottle that to me tasted like a shandy (if I didn't open the bottle, pour it myself and have held onto it the whole time, I would have been convinced that someone put lemonade in there). Two mates tasted that same bottle and one said unhelpfully, "it tastes weird" and the other said "It tastes like cardboard". Ah ha, I thought. This mate has no idea about the experiment or any experience with beer flavours (off flavours) other than the barrels he's drunk in his life so far. I was convinced this would spell the beginning of things to come, and it may yet, but H2O2 bottles consumed since show no similar flavours. It's also interesting that I could taste a Lemonade flavour? and he said "cardboard". I'm convinced that that bottle was oxidised, but one bottle proves nothing, so the experiment goes on.

Update of my notes attached.

View attachment Vienna H2O2 experiment 26 02 17.docx


The tasting comparison will go on. Peteru, Techno, Adro, any further results from your experiments that differ from mine so far?

EDIT - Oh and I bought an oxygen wand and stone from Keg King, but haven't got the O2 yet (O2 regulator I have for free so am likely to go with the D size O2 from Bunnings)


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## peteru

Wow, Jack of all biers! Comprehensive note taking there. Puts me to shame. 

After a few more ad-hoc observations, I have come to the conclusion that there is no detriment in using H2O2 when added just after pitching yeast. However, there is no significant observable benefit either, when compared to vigorous aeration using a paint stirrer and power drill. I guess H2O2 could be used as an alternative to vigorous agitation. Varying the dosage of H2O2 might produce different results, but a lot more data would be required.

I have found that a much bigger influence on the fermentation and the final result is the yeast starter. A large (3L) high krausen active starter has so far produced the best result. Pitching on top of a yeast cake and using a paint stirrer to aerate has also produced good results. All my experimentation was done with a US-05 culture that I have been propagating for about 18 months now.

It kind of makes sense. You can either pitch less active yeast, oxygenate the wort and let the yeast do it's thing in the main batch. Or, you can grab a portion of the wort, stick it on a stirplate with the yeast and let the yeast do "Stage 1." on the stirplate, then combine with the main batch to finish the job. Because you are pitching all of the starter, you are also bringing in all the flavours that develop in Stage 1.

I have been tossing up as to whether my next investment should be an O2 wand or a kegmenter. So far, I am leaning towards choosing a kegmenter, so that I can have a closed system from pitching to serving. I think that's likely to bring more benefit, since I should be able to have an oxygen free process at all times after pitching yeast. The only question there is a method for dry hopping. I'm thinking a HDD magnet holding a hop bag to the roof of kegmenter - remove the magnet to drop the hops on day 3 of fermentation.


----------



## Jack of all biers

peteru said:


> Wow, Jack of all biers! Comprehensive note taking there. Puts me to shame.


Call me retentive h34r:



peteru said:


> After a few more ad-hoc observations, I have come to the conclusion that there is no detriment in using H2O2 when added just after pitching yeast. However, there is no significant observable benefit either, when compared to vigorous aeration using a paint stirrer and power drill. I guess H2O2 could be used as an alternative to vigorous agitation. Varying the dosage of H2O2 might produce different results, but a lot more data would be required.


My observations exactly. H2O2 as a benefit, nope. As a discernible detriment, nope. Therefore why bother using at all? 

I'm still not sold on the whole O2 thing as the stuff is only so soluble at certain temps that to get more than 8 ppm is really only achievable with temps in the 12C or below and even then....? Definitely agree that the more I learn the more important the vitality of the yeast is (and to a certain extent the pitching rate also). But the reason for the O2 wand purchase was that I can spend sweet FA and trial O2 with the old mans O2 tank and reg and if it's the bees knees then I'll purchase an O2 tank. If not, then the want will come in handy for aeration with an air pump or something  

I'm also thinking about kegmentor or Fermentasaurus. Like the later, but too small as I generally brew 50L at a time and the former will fit in the fermentation fridge I currently have, but I digress into off topic territory. Keep it up fella love those out there experimental ideas of yours :beerbang:


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## MHB

Jack
I'm not trying to knock your results, wouldn't be at all surprised if they were fairly accurate; here is the but, they are anecdotal.
This thread is out to 30 pages and it is full of people saying how much their beer has benefited from using O2; also anecdotal, but very consistent.

I would (speculation) think the amount of benefit obtained from the O2 in the H2O2 is balancing the harm done to the yeast by the H2O2 - zero sum gain.
Verses widely reported benefits from oxygenation... using O2 improves your beer looks like a very good bet.
Mark


----------



## Jack of all biers

Yep. Which is why I'm going to give it a try. Just tried the cheaper H2O2 first to see if there was a cheaper ghetto way. My conclusion (yep knew it was only anecdotal) is exactly as you say. I'm not knocking O2, I just have a healthy scepticism and a tight wallet.


----------



## Mardoo

I'm going to raise the spectre of vitality starters again here. I've continued to use them and cannot speak highly enough of the, well, vitality of the ferments with no further aeration of the wort. I really think the LODO guys should give this a go if they aren't already.

Add your slurry to 500ml 1.040 wort. (Oxygenate if you wish. I haven't been but plan on doing some comparisons.) Spin 4 hours on the plate. Add to wort and ferment. No further aeration needed.

I should mention that I have used this exclusively on ales to this point, but have a lager ferment going at the moment using this protocol. We'll see what happens. Apparently this was started at Coors.

EDIT: FWIW, Further to MHB's post, this too is absolutely anecdotal. Equipment-wise I'm finally getting myself to the point I have a satisfactory amount of control to side-by-side ferments that will hopefully satisfy my process desires (Insert heavy SS breathing here). It's been working for me over the last year and I'm pretty damn happy with the results. I was about to upgrade my O2 setup, but was getting ferments that were too fast and too clean. (This was discussed in one of my other ramblings.) I ran across this technique (said to come from Coors via Colin Kaminsky) and thought I'd give it a go while I saved money for the new O2 setup. Over the last year I've tightened up yeast and ferment processes to the point that over the coming year I'll be able to eliminate most of the variables I can see and do true side-by-sides to test the vitality starter process against both air-based and pure O2 aeration.


----------



## Jack of all biers

Cheers for the reminder mardoo and it's on my list of things to try. I just need to get me a yeast forge when they're back on the market.


----------



## Rocker1986

I've read about that vitality starter method too, but haven't tried it as yet. The problem for me is that I harvest yeast from starters, so it wouldn't work with that process. Maybe I will try it when I get to the last use of strains as I obviously won't be harvesting from them on those particular occasions.

ON another note, really been enjoying the beers I've been making with O2 added at pitching time, along with adjusting the water profile to better suit the styles being brewed. My beers are probably the best they've ever been and hopefully will continue to improve.


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## Adr_0

Link here here to an experiment I did along similar lines.


----------



## Adr_0

Jack of all biers said:


> So, an update of the experiment with H2O2 compared to a traditionally Aerated batch at the two month mark.
> 
> My findings re fermentation are above, but I have been taste comparing every two weeks, or so for the last two months (but drinking bottles between comparison pairs :drinks: What?) and can say that there is little to no difference (except for one bottle) so far.
> 
> I'm not sold on the Yorkshire yeast (too much bread for me), but other than one H2O2 bottle that to me tasted like a shandy (if I didn't open the bottle, pour it myself and have held onto it the whole time, I would have been convinced that someone put lemonade in there). Two mates tasted that same bottle and one said unhelpfully, "it tastes weird" and the other said "It tastes like cardboard". Ah ha, I thought. This mate has no idea about the experiment or any experience with beer flavours (off flavours) other than the barrels he's drunk in his life so far. I was convinced this would spell the beginning of things to come, and it may yet, but H2O2 bottles consumed since show no similar flavours. It's also interesting that I could taste a Lemonade flavour? and he said "cardboard". I'm convinced that that bottle was oxidised, but one bottle proves nothing, so the experiment goes on.
> 
> Update of my notes attached.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vienna H2O2 experiment 26 02 17.docx
> 
> The tasting comparison will go on. Peteru, Techno, Adro, any further results from your experiments that differ from mine so far?
> 
> EDIT - Oh and I bought an oxygen wand and stone from Keg King, but haven't got the O2 yet (O2 regulator I have for free so am likely to go with the D size O2 from Bunnings)


To answer your question, it seems like H2O2 does actually add oxygen, and yeast is able to reduce this. Saw this consistently in my tests. And even a 160ppm dose into a 150mL starter didn't kill the yeast, so that's nice.

Gravity wise, haven't seen a big change - it's been only 12hrs though.

Sensory indicators will be the big test.


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## mtb

I reckon that deserves its own thread Adro


----------



## klangers

Great job Adrian. 

Are we sure that there's nothing else from peroxide that could cause oxidation? My quick skim of wiki on methylene blue indicates that it does go blue in any oxidative environment. Interesting that you can create peroxides from it too.

Anyway, I'll pipe down as I'm a mechanical fella



> Other uses[SIZE=small][edit][/SIZE]
> 
> Redox indicator[SIZE=small][edit][/SIZE]
> Methylene blue is widely used as a redox indicator in analytical chemistry. Solutions of this substance are blue when in an oxidizing environment, but will turn colorless if exposed to a reducing agent. The redox properties can be seen in a classical demonstration of chemical kinetics in general chemistry, the "blue bottle" experiment. Typically, a solution is made ofglucose (dextrose), methylene blue, and sodium hydroxide. Upon shaking the bottle, oxygen oxidizes methylene blue, and the solution turns blue. The dextrose will gradually reduce the methylene blue to its colorless, reduced form. Hence, when the dissolved dextrose is entirely consumed, the solution will turn blue again.
> 
> Peroxide generator[SIZE=small][edit][/SIZE]
> Methylene blue is also a photosensitizer used to create singlet oxygen when exposed to both oxygen and light. It is used in this regard to make organic peroxides by a Diels-Alder reaction which is spin forbidden with normal atmospheric triplet oxygen.


----------



## Adr_0

klangers said:


> Great job Adrian.
> 
> Are we sure that there's nothing else from peroxide that could cause oxidation? My quick skim of wiki on methylene blue indicates that it does go blue in any oxidative environment. Interesting that you can create peroxides from it too.
> 
> Anyway, I'll pipe down as I'm a mechanical fella


I think what you're asking is if there are other oxidation products that don't necessarily represent delicious dissolved oxygen? That's an excellent question actually, and perhaps Lyrebird_Cycles or Dr Smurto can shed some light.

It may be worth repeating the DO testing with an instrument rather than extremely dodgy colour indication in a yellow/red beer. Hopefully gravity and flavour/aroma/visual indicators will provide useful information though, and support the DO/oxidation numbers.


----------



## Jack of all biers

Dr Smurto answered it in this post on the previous page.



DrSmurto said:


> I've only very briefly skimmed the discussion on H2O2.
> 
> A few points from a scientist whose research area involves H2O2 and O2 in juice/wine; similar situation holds with wort/beer.
> 
> Firstly, the reason why O2 is used and not H2O2 is that O2 can't react with organic compounds. This is what is called 'spin forbidden' and is a very fundamental principle of chemistry relating to the configuration of the electrons in the atom. It first reacts with transition metal ions to produce the superoxide radical which can then react with organic compounds. Yeast can mop up the oxygen very rapidly and in a medium that contains only trace amounts of reactive transition metals in the required oxidation state, it will do so before much, if any damage is caused by oxygen via the superoxide radical. We have measured the speed in which yeast uses up all the oxygen in juice and it is very fast, in the order of minutes. We can also measure oxidation markers to see what chemical effects are being caused by O2 introduction and the result is negligible. Our oxygen sensors measure down to ppb levels of oxygen.
> 
> This is not the case with hydrogen peroxide, it is very capable of reacting with organic compounds or just about anything it comes into contact with. This is not a selective process, you can't expect yeast to protect the wort from H2O2 as it cannot prevent every single molecule of H2O2 from colliding with other molecules in the wort. Adding an incredibly powerful oxidiser to your wort is not a particularly well thought out method of adding O2.


EDIT - + 1 for the DO instrument testing and mutation observations on the yeast themselves would be the next step.


----------



## Adr_0

Jack of all biers said:


> Dr Smurto answered it in this post on the previous page.
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT - + 1 for the DO instrument testing and mutation observations on the yeast themselves would be the next step.


From everything I've seen, adding H2O2 and methylene blue will actually remove the blue colour. Over the hour or so I thought the blue in the 'saturated' solution was becoming less, but I couldn't be sure. 

This morning the 'saturated' solution was as pale yellow as the ascorbic acid reduced solution. Other solutions were unchanged overnight. These other solutions had 0.001% H2O2 in them, vs the 4mL of 12% I had in 40mL of solution to make up the 'saturated' standard. 

The studies I've seen use metal catalysts to speed up the reduction, while it still took 6-12hrs with no catalyst. 

This doesn't exactly prove that there are not other oxidation products making the MB go blue. There is a 2H2O2 > 2H2O + O2 decomposition that will occur in water, which is significantly sped up in the presence of yeast - so I'm hoping this produced oxygen to show blue, rather than something else. 

I'll have to get my hands on a DO meter from Tech Rentals next time...


----------



## Jack of all biers

Mardoo said:


> EDIT: FWIW, Further to MHB's post, this too is absolutely anecdotal. Equipment-wise I'm finally getting myself to the point I have a satisfactory amount of control to side-by-side ferments that will hopefully satisfy my process desires (Insert heavy SS breathing here). It's been working for me over the last year and I'm pretty damn happy with the results. I was about to upgrade my O2 setup, but was getting ferments that were too fast and too clean. (This was discussed in one of my other ramblings.) I ran across this technique (said to come from Coors via Colin Kaminsky) and thought I'd give it a go while I saved money for the new O2 setup. Over the last year I've tightened up yeast and ferment processes to the point that over the coming year I'll be able to eliminate most of the variables I can see and do true side-by-sides to test the vitality starter process against both air-based and pure O2 aeration.


If I could double like your post after reading your edit I would. Can't wait to read about it.

EDIT -
Adr_0, on 19 May 2017 - 8:16 PM, said:

This doesn't exactly prove that there are not other oxidation products making the MB go blue. There is a 2H2O2 > 2H2O + O2 decomposition that will occur in water, which is significantly sped up in the presence of yeast - so I'm hoping this produced oxygen to show blue, rather than something else.
I'll have to get my hands on a DO meter from Tech Rentals next time...

Does MB go blue for oxidised molecules/compounds though? Serious question as I don't know.


----------



## Phoney

Christ almighty with the amount of time you guys have spent (looking back, since bloody February) faffing about researching chemistry and experimenting with this that and the other and so on so-forth with something that may or may not even work, you guys could have just bit the bullet and bought a C02 setup and moved on! I mean, now you want to get your hands on a DO meter? My head is spinning, and not because I've had 6+ beers.


----------



## Jack of all biers

Lifes about the journey sometimes, not getting to the end quickly. CO2 set up already purchased though


----------



## Mardoo

What is the sound of one hand faffing?


----------



## technobabble66

Jack of all biers said:


> ...
> The tasting comparison will go on. Peteru, Techno, Adro, any further results from your experiments that differ from mine so far?
> ...


Sorry, afraid not.
I've done a few ales with M42 and WLP-530 using a combo of stirring to aerate on the yeast cake then adding some H2O2 ~30mins later to the equivalent of an additional 10ppm O2. The idea being the beasties wake up in the first 30mins, then are able to deal with the H2)2 when i add it.
It's basically not a useful test of the veracity of the H2O2.
I'm not set up to do side-by-sides, so i've assumed any of my findings will be of scant benefit.
Having said that, most of these fermentations have been completed within 2-3 days. This is remarkably fast for me. I'd assume that most of this results from the 2 strains of yeast used plus the large yeast cake population i'm pitching onto. Maybe it suggests the H2O2 is at least not doing any damage to the yeasts that noticeably impairs fermentation rate. These beers are generally not mature enough to show signs of oxidation or other flaws, though i reckon my Oaty Belgian ale from the first generation of the WLP-530 is one of my best beers. So i've definitely not seen any flaws in that after 8-12 weeks.
One other point is that with the M42 yeast cake, i've done 3 consecutive generations, after a previous 2 generations, all using the above stirring plus H2O2 method. All of these show no sign of strain deviation or mutation. Admittedly in a strain that has minimal contribution to the finished beer.
Again, not really anything you could describe as scientific results, but a loose indicator perhaps.

Otherwise, top work by Jack & Adr_0. Really impressive work!


----------



## technobabble66

Mardoo said:


> What is the sound of one hand faffing?


it's a kind of swishing sound.


----------



## Adr_0

Jack of all biers said:


> If I could double like your post after reading your edit I would. Can't wait to read about it.
> 
> EDIT -
> Adr_0, on 19 May 2017 - 8:16 PM, said:
> 
> This doesn't exactly prove that there are not other oxidation products making the MB go blue. There is a 2H2O2 > 2H2O + O2 decomposition that will occur in water, which is significantly sped up in the presence of yeast - so I'm hoping this produced oxygen to show blue, rather than something else.
> I'll have to get my hands on a DO meter from Tech Rentals next time...
> 
> Does MB go blue for oxidised molecules/compounds though? Serious question as I don't know.



It doesn't so much to blue for oxidation compounds, but available O or O2 floating around will bond with H on the leucomethylene blue (white/colourless form) and with the H removed and bonds rearranged it turns blue. 

Similarly an acid - ascorbic acid in my case - can donate an H to the blue methylene blue, making it colourless leucomethylene. 

It is entirely possible that a free O- will bond to MB more readily than forming O2 then bonding to the MB.

EDIT: rushed post before daughter's dancing and got things mixed up. 



technobabble66 said:


> it's a kind of swishing sound.


I though it was more of a sucky squelchy sound?


----------



## Adr_0

I'm really starting to see the batch where H2O2 was added to the wort start to lag behind the others. It is quite probable that without the yeast catalase I'm just getting vigorous, slutty O-'s floating around and oxidising wort - while the other tests, with yeast already in suspension and yeast catalase available, ensure at least a bit decomposes to O2. I know that this isn't particularly groundbreaking, but it's why I diluted the H2O2 (to help mixing) and why I had two tests where yeast was thoroughly mixed around already. It will be interesting to see if there's a difference.

Batch #2 with H2O2 in wort for 40min before contact with any yeast is the orange line:


----------



## good4whatAlesU

Not sure if its been discussed already but there are numerous aquarium tablets (of varying chemistry) around that claim to oxygenate the water. Some peroxide based? Some potassium chlorate? I'm not up to speed with this chemistry. Perhaps it's possible the slower release tablets might work over several days rather than the straight up liquid hit?

Anyway obviously not safe to drop aquarium tablets in your wort (don't do it!), but if the chemistry (and safety) was sound, could be a market for that sort of thing in brewing.


----------



## Adr_0

good4whatAlesU said:


> Not sure if its been discussed already but there are numerous aquarium tablets (of varying chemistry) around that claim to oxygenate the water. Some peroxide based? Some potassium chlorate? I'm not up to speed with this chemistry. Perhaps it's possible the slower release tablets might work over several days rather than the straight up liquid hit?
> 
> Anyway obviously not safe to drop aquarium tablets in your wort (don't do it!), but if the chemistry (and safety) was sound, could be a market for that sort of thing in brewing.


The reason a few of us are testing the H2O2 thing is that it's less gear to have, less intrusive and cheaper than O2 cylinders/regulators - if it works. It's also better for the back than shaking.

I guess it's a similar thing with a tablet - great if it works. I'm not sure if chlorate (ClO4?) is a good thing to be adding anywhere near malt or yeast though. The oxygen is probably fine but the chlorine is not.


----------



## technobabble66

Adr_0 said:


> ...
> I though it was more of a sucky squelchy sound?


That's the sound of one hand fapping, not faffing. 
[emoji15]

Edit: it now makes me wonder what you think has been happening every time someone has said "I just spent a few hours faffing around the house" ... [emoji51]


----------



## Adr_0

Next lot of numbers. I feel like #1 is Kenny Wallace and the Control is Adam van Koeverden in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QFrcrjJ95I


----------



## MHB

Adr-0
If the data you have collected so far means anything, it appears to show that no matter when you add peroxide, it does harm!
Be very interesting to see what happens as terminal gravity is approached.
Mark


----------



## Adr_0

MHB said:


> Adr-0
> If the data you have collected so far means anything, it appears to show that no matter when you add peroxide, it does harm!
> Be very interesting to see what happens as terminal gravity is approached.
> Mark


Indeed. I thought #3 had a bit of lag and was saving up for a strong push but it doesn't appear so.

Attenuation is one thing, but I'm particularly curious about the sensory indicators. This is probably the worst stage to taste/smell so I'm going to wait until next week for that.


----------



## MHB

What did you do with the "Control" any aeration at all, shaken, stirred... or just yeast into the wort?
Mark


----------



## Adr_0

MHB said:


> What did you do with the "Control" any aeration at all, shaken, stirred... or just yeast into the wort?
> Mark


6hrs on the stir plate - very scientific, but essentially trying to get oxygenation without too much growth.

All yeast was split down from a fresh 1L starter. 

Control was 500mL starter on the stirplate into 12L, while the others were 150mL into 2.5L.

The ratio is about 24:1 in the control and 16-18:1 in the tests. Technically more yeast in the tests but I'm not sure how much difference that makes.


----------



## big78sam

I finally got round to using the o2 setup. Nice healthy ferment, finished much lower than im used to. IPA got down from 1058 to 1010 with us05. I will be doing this every beer from now on.


----------



## big78sam

I promise not to post after every beer but i had to update after brewing my first ever barleywine. Og 1095. 2 rehydrated packets of us05. I hit it with o2 for 2 minutes on pitching and then another 45 seconds 15 hours later (per the yeast book suggestion for big beers). I fermented at 17.5 degrees and it was at 1024 after a week, then ramped up to 20 degrees for 4 more days to finish. It finished at 1016. I didnt expect to get that low. Theres no way i would have got that attenuation without the 02. It is such a good investment.


----------



## Meddo

Hey all, can anyone recommend a check valve and shut off valve suitable for using with pure oxygen? Currently butchering parts from the Brewman oxy kit which is using 1/4" ID / 3/8" OD gas line so that sizing in either barb or push-in would be great, although I suspect that 6 mm ID / 8 mm OD would be fine too. I was assuming I could find something in the John Guest range but they appear to be for air and inert gases (CO2, N2) only.


----------



## Danscraftbeer

big78sam said:


> I promise not to post after every beer but i had to update after brewing my first ever barleywine. Og 1095. 2 rehydrated packets of us05. I hit it with o2 for 2 minutes on pitching and then another 45 seconds 15 hours later (per the yeast book suggestion for big beers). I fermented at 17.5 degrees and it was at 1024 after a week, then ramped up to 20 degrees for 4 more days to finish. It finished at 1016. I didnt expect to get that low. Theres no way i would have got that attenuation without the 02. It is such a good investment.


Can you give us a taste report? Please.


----------



## Zorco

Aside, I've just picked up my new O2 cylinder from BOC. That plus my fermentasaurus I'll be making average beer shortly!!!

Now, what is that pH and water chemistry business?......


----------



## Schikitar

Can anyone recommend what 02 setup a newbie should get? Specifically, me.


----------



## Zorco

The best possible option without any regard to other things is the Bunnings gas cylinder option with a new cigweld reg from Bunnings. Then get a barb thingy from the inter webs (or before), some silicone hose, gas disconnect and you're set on a non- time expense program!

Disclaimer: I'm just some asshole - my opinion is entirely subjective and by no means accounts for the specific needs of the P:-schik

Edit: if your reg gauge doesn't have 'no oil' then shove it up the ass of the closest dead chook on its way to the tip.

O2 can **** you up... but that's subjective. I really enjoy breathing it, especially with a hangover . But that is subjective.


----------



## Moad

I'm almost finished my digital hydrometers at which point I'll do a side by side ferment with as many other variables as possible eliminated. It seems pretty conclusive that 02 gives a healthier ferment but I'm curious to track gravity over the whole fermentation.

Will report back in a month or so


----------



## 2cranky

Schikitar said:


> Can anyone recommend what 02 setup a newbie should get? Specifically, me.


I got this reg:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Disposable-...ottles-Boss-/111359555038?hash=item19ed8bf5de
a Tradeflame disposable bottle from Bunnings
and this wand:
https://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=5938

Works ok, spinning the mash paddle on the end of the drill worked okay too.
My brews don't taste any different but I think they get up and get moving more reliably.


----------



## MHB

There are lots of options, including the one from Brewman, I think anyone that has used one of these will be happy with it.
I would recommend you look at a stainless wand makes it a lot easier to use.
Mark


----------



## Schikitar

2cranky said:


> I got this reg:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Disposable-...ottles-Boss-/111359555038?hash=item19ed8bf5de
> a Tradeflame disposable bottle from Bunnings
> and this wand:
> https://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=5938



This looks pretty good and about $30 cheaper than the Brewman solution (which looks great but there's postage as well). Hmmmmm, what's needed between the wand and the reg in terms of hose/fittings?


----------



## 2cranky

Schikitar said:


> This looks pretty good and about $30 cheaper than the Brewman solution (which looks great but there's postage as well). Hmmmmm, what's needed between the wand and the reg in terms of hose/fittings?


just a bit of clear hose and 2 hose clamps. - also from bunnings
I'm up to about 15 brews with mine - I share it with a neighbor.


----------



## Schikitar

2cranky said:


> I share it with a neighbor.


Great idea, I could possibly go halves with my brother, help shoulder the cost!


----------



## 2cranky

Schikitar said:


> Great idea, I could possibly go halves with my brother, help shoulder the cost!


Great idea - Ill have to ask my neighbor to help shoulder the cost.


----------



## Lionman

Get an aeration stone rather than the wand. Only $10 rather than $50.


----------



## kaiserben

Lionman said:


> Get an aeration stone rather than the wand. Only $10 rather than $50.



The idea with a wand is you attach an aeration stone to the end of it. That way you don't have to deal with coiling hose while trying to move the aeration stone in and around the wort.


----------



## mtb

Another benefit of the wand is ease of sanitisation. You can dunk the whole thing into the wort during the last 5min to sanitise, whereas with a bit of gas line / poly tubing I assume you can't subject it to such temps and have to dunk in sanitiser instead.


----------



## Bribie G

Wands are good if you have a SS vessel as the stone can scratch the surface. I've got the poly tubing setup but just put a couple of rubber grommets (from a universal grommet set from a $2 shop) around the end of the stone as a protector.


----------



## Droopy Brew

I just use some of the John Guest gas line as it is reasonably stiff. I have no issues with coiling etc.
I'm not sure that boiling the stone in wort would be a great idea. I've always tried to ensure I have had O2 running through it before submersing in any liquid to prevent blockage of the 2um pores. I imagine if it were suberged in wort for 5 minutes, there is a lot of material that may cause blockages.
I simply turn on the O2, dunk in starsan for about 10 seconds, put into the wort to do its thing, remove and place in the starsan for another 10 seconds, take it out and turn off the O2.
So far works for me.


----------



## Droopy Brew

A question- is there any need to move the stone around while oxygenating the wort or will it be fine just bubbling up from the same spot at the bottom of the FV?
I generally move it around a bit but figure the O2 will be absorbed through the column even if it is in the same spot. Just wondering if people are getting these wands so the stone can be moved around every square inch f the wort during the process and whether that would make much of a difference to the DO levels? 
@mtb Im looking at you.


----------



## mtb

@Droopy Brew I'm by no means an authority on that. I swirl the stone, because I assume it is more effective, but that's just it - an assumption. I'm pretty close to buying a wand for that purpose.
In basic terms it makes sense that the O2 bubbles only oxygenate wort that they come into contact with, and if you leave the stone still, the pillar of rising bubbles will not oxygenate the wort around them. Someone should come in and Science properly for me.


----------



## Stouter

Second that mtb. I'm a wand swirler.
Makes perfect sense to my unscientifically trained but practical mind.


----------



## Lionman

I just use 1m of beer line with the stone attached.

I boil it in the kitchen kettle for a few mins, then rinse it in starsan. Not that hard. I would not boil it in wort as it could leach flavours, but I haven't had any problems boiling it in water then rinsing.

I make sure O2 is flowing when the stone is contact with wort. I move it about slowly and the beer line is stiff enough to do this easily. I find moving it about reduce the amount of foam produced which I think means more o2 is going into solution at a faster rate, although this might be a completely false assumption. I'm about as far from an authority on fluid dynamics as you can possibly get.

Regardless of if you're using plastic or stainless, make sure the inside is sanitised and cleaned properly too. I did get some mould growth inside the plastic tube after it was left sat for a few weeks. I replaced the hose but it woudl be harder to see this in SS wand.

Make sure you clean and sanitise after use as well as before use.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

mtb said:


> Another benefit of the wand is ease of sanitisation. You can dunk the whole thing into the wort during the last 5min to sanitise, whereas with a bit of gas line / poly tubing I assume you can't subject it to such temps and have to dunk in sanitiser instead.



My oxygenation rig used* a polymer hose between the sterile filter and the sinter and I autoclaved it before every use with no ill effects. Just don't use plasticised PVC or polythene tubing and you should be OK.

Re the swirling thing: it is probably unnecessary. Research has shown that you need about 6 metres of fluid depth for all the O2 released from a standard sinter to go into solution. If it's not going into solution it will create a bubble train which will mix the wort for you: rousing a tank with gas is a standard way of mixing.


* I no longer use a standard oxygenation rig as I'm working on a substitute. Will report details in a few months.


----------



## big78sam

Danscraftbeer said:


> Can you give us a taste report? Please.


I haven't tried it yet. Its been in the keg a week and a half. Im planning to to leave it until next winter but ill have a sneaky taste tomorrow and report back


----------



## mtb

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> My oxygenation rig used* a polymer hose between the sterile filter and the sinter and I autoclaved it before every use with no ill effects. Just don't use plasticised PVC or polythene tubing and you should be OK.
> 
> Re the swirling thing: it is probably unnecessary. Research has shown that you need about 6 metres of fluid depth for all the O2 released from a standard sinter to go into solution. If it's not going into solution it will create a bubble train which will mix the wort for you: rousing a tank with gas is a standard way of mixing.
> 
> 
> * I no longer use a standard oxygenation rig as I'm working on a substitute. Will report details in a few months.


Much appreciated LC.


----------



## Zorco

I always wanted to try an oxygen generator - the one old people use. Then pressurise it somehow and with a makeshift gun burst the O2 into the wort with a super fine, atomising (for lack of a better word) nozzle.

Like injecting your meat with succulent brine...

Just a drunken thought one day.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Re: oxygen compatible check valve, something all brass with teflon seat/seal materials would be the safest. But it also should be oxygen cleaned which can be challenging to get off the shelf and at a reasonable price.

Also a proud wand stirrer, in light of Lyrebirds figure of 6m depth for complete dissolution you might as well stir to maximise surface are of the bubbles to wort exposure.


----------



## pcqypcqy

If using a correct pitch rate, as calculated using something like the brewer's friend calc (link), is oxygen required?

From what I can gather here, oxygen helps with yeast growth. From what I can gather on the calc, the pitch rates are based on what pro brewers use to minimise the amount of growth required and start the beer off right.

I'm taking a more active interest in pitch rates at the moment, and oxygen may well come down the track, but keen to get people's thoughts.

_(Apologies if I've missed discussion on this, but in the last year since I first commented on this thread, the page count has increased somewhat!)_


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

Depends what you mean by required. 

You can make good beer without oxygen. You can make better beer with oxygen. 

Your choice.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Pro brewers dose oxygen.


----------



## Stouter

Got an oxy cylinder on what BOC gas call a 'D' plan. $79/yr. pick up at the start full, then another refill within that first year, then one refill each year from then on. I was paying $36 each for those little red cylinders from the auto shop. Not sure how many brews I'll get out of a d size but I reckon I must be way ahead.


----------



## manticle

pcqypcqy said:


> If using a correct pitch rate, as calculated using something like the brewer's friend calc (link), is oxygen required?
> 
> From what I can gather here, oxygen helps with yeast growth. From what I can gather on the calc, the pitch rates are based on what pro brewers use to minimise the amount of growth required and start the beer off right.
> 
> I'm taking a more active interest in pitch rates at the moment, and oxygen may well come down the track, but keen to get people's thoughts.
> 
> _(Apologies if I've missed discussion on this, but in the last year since I first commented on this thread, the page count has increased somewhat!)_


Different horses in the same race (although both can be winners).

Like whirlfloc/brewbrite and whirlpooling both contribute to separating hot break from main wort but in different ways. One is good, both are better.


----------



## Rocker1986

Stouter said:


> Got an oxy cylinder on what BOC gas call a 'D' plan. $79/yr. pick up at the start full, then another refill within that first year, then one refill each year from then on. I was paying $36 each for those little red cylinders from the auto shop. Not sure how many brews I'll get out of a d size but I reckon I must be way ahead.


I'm on that same plan, and I'm still using the original cylinder I got. I'm not sure how accurate the regulator is in terms of how much is left in it, but it started at 20,000 kpa and is now just under the 15,000 mark. I've probably used it on 16-18 batches so far.


----------



## pcqypcqy

Rocker1986 said:


> I'm on that same plan, and I'm still using the original cylinder I got. I'm not sure how accurate the regulator is in terms of how much is left in it, but it started at 20,000 kpa and is now just under the 15,000 mark. I've probably used it on 16-18 batches so far.



It'll be liquid, so the high pressure reg will just be a measure of temperature as long as there is any liquid left. Only when the liquid is gone and the pressure starts to drop off will this change significantly. Best way to measure is to weigh it.

But, from what the numbers above say, you should get years worth of brews out of it.


----------



## pcqypcqy

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Depends what you mean by required.
> 
> You can make good beer without oxygen. You can make better beer with oxygen.
> 
> Your choice.



Noted. I've been making decent beer so far without worrying about it, but that's what happens when you lurk here long enough is you start buying shit.



DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Pro brewers dose oxygen.



I'm sure they do. My reference to 'pro' is referring to the brewers friend calculator and the supporting info. The pro brewers you are referring to might not be using the pitch rates recommended therein.



manticle said:


> Different horses in the same race (although both can be winners).
> 
> Like whirlfloc/brewbrite and whirlpooling both contribute to separating hot break from main wort but in different ways. One is good, both are better.



Cheers, this is what I'm thinking. I can work on pitch rates without investing in more equipment at the moment, so I'll concentrate on that. But having priced up the oxygen set ups you guys are using, and the deal from bunnings, I suspect I'll be jumping onto oxygen before long.


----------



## Stouter

Rocker1986 said:


> I'm on that same plan, and I'm still using the original cylinder I got. I'm not sure how accurate the regulator is in terms of how much is left in it, but it started at 20,000 kpa and is now just under the 15,000 mark. I've probably used it on 16-18 batches so far.


That's great.
How long have you had it for, is it still in the first year?
They told me if it was getting close to the end of the year to bring it in for a swap even if it was half full, so I still get my 'one/yr'.
There appears to be an improvement in my ferments with the oxy addition. I recently split a Wyeast 1084 pack into 4 and built each back up into 1.5L starters. The two batches this far of the same stout recipe have come out the same as when I used a full pack on a single batch without oxy. Each ferment at 18d, and they take around 8-10 days. 
Used the oxy first time with some US-05 last week and waiting for that to finish, that's a smash recipe and should work out well.


----------



## malt junkie

Your delusional if you think pro's are pitching less than a home brewer does, or even what an online calculator tells you. Most of us have maybe $60 of ingredients in the kettle. Pro's have thousands $$ in ingredients in a batch, and they have to sell it or explain to the ATO where that beer went; about 3 days of paper work and the ATO won't put up with a brewer tipping batch after batch. In fact I know of one brewery that tipped the batch and paid the excise on it. Pro's ride very close to the edge of over pitching, and they still O2 their wort.


----------



## pcqypcqy

malt junkie said:


> Your delusional if you think pro's are pitching less than a home brewer does, or even what an online calculator tells you. Most of us have maybe $60 of ingredients in the kettle. Pro's have thousands $$ in ingredients in a batch, and they have to sell it or explain to the ATO where that beer went; about 3 days of paper work and the ATO won't put up with a brewer tipping batch after batch. In fact I know of one brewery that tipped the batch and paid the excise on it. Pro's ride very close to the edge of over pitching, and they still O2 their wort.



Where have I said pro brewers pitch less than homebrewers? I'm just trying to pull apart (if I can) the issues about pitch rates an oxygen dosage. The real point of my question is: Is it worth focussing on one without the other?

I agree with you that proper pro brewers will do all of what you said because of the commercial implications. Though from the tastes of their beer, there must be a few 'pro' brewers who put little or no effort in pitch rates and oxygen. I like to think of these people as brewery owners, rather than brewers.

Anyway, my point is that the calculator is based on supporting information which suggested that the target pitch rates they have used and the papers that they have based their numbers on are aimed at limiting the yeast growth phase and jumping straight into full blown fermentation.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

pcqypcqy said:


> It'll be liquid, so the high pressure reg will just be a measure of temperature as long as there is any liquid left. Only when the liquid is gone and the pressure starts to drop off will this change significantly. Best way to measure is to weigh it.
> 
> But, from what the numbers above say, you should get years worth of brews out of it.



No it won't sorry. That only applies to CO2 and LPG as they are liquifiable under pressure.

Nitrogen, Oxygen, Argon, Helium etc are all simply gases in cylinders. The high pressure gauge IS a reading of contents left for those gases.


----------



## Rocker1986

Stouter said:


> That's great.
> How long have you had it for, is it still in the first year?
> They told me if it was getting close to the end of the year to bring it in for a swap even if it was half full, so I still get my 'one/yr'.
> There appears to be an improvement in my ferments with the oxy addition. I recently split a Wyeast 1084 pack into 4 and built each back up into 1.5L starters. The two batches this far of the same stout recipe have come out the same as when I used a full pack on a single batch without oxy. Each ferment at 18d, and they take around 8-10 days.
> Used the oxy first time with some US-05 last week and waiting for that to finish, that's a smash recipe and should work out well.


November last year I got it mate. Been in a bit of a brewing lull lately though due to moving house. Starting to get back into the schedule now.


----------



## pcqypcqy

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> No it won't sorry. That only applies to CO2 and LPG as they are liquifiable under pressure.
> 
> Nitrogen, Oxygen, Argon, Helium etc are all simply gases in cylinders. The high pressure gauge IS a reading of contents left for those gases.



My bad.

_Though all gases are liquifiable under pressure_*, it's just a question of what pressure. Hadn't realiased that oxygen wasn't bottled as a liquid.

* edit: relearning about triple points and phase diagrams. Been a while. I'll shut up now.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Back on topic... one pro brewer I was lucky to be there from start to finish on a brew day looked to base pitch rates more on the commercially available yeast pack size, in this case was US05 dry block of 500g. I unfortunately can't remember the size of the fermenter which they had, might've been pitching into 1000L in a 2000L FV and then dumping another 1000L wort into the FV a couple days later as the brew rig limit was 1000L. Surprisingly this converts to exactly 11.5grams per 23L, so based on that a similar pitching rate to as recommended by Safale on the packet.
They rehydrated too, but that's another debate...


----------



## mofox1

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> I unfortunately can't remember the size of the fermenter which they had, might've been pitching into 1000L in a 2000L FV and then dumping another 1000L wort into the FV a couple days later as the brew rig limit was 1000L.Surprisingly this converts to exactly 11.5grams per 23L, so based on that a similar pitching rate to as recommended by Safale on the packet.
> They rehydrated too, but that's another debate...


Assuming you're right about the FV fill - It's also double dropping, yet another topic on yeast management


----------



## manticle

Actually drauflassen. Double dropping is different.


----------



## Black n Tan

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Back on topic... one pro brewer I was lucky to be there from start to finish on a brew day looked to base pitch rates more on the commercially available yeast pack size, in this case was US05 dry block of 5kg. I unfortunately can't remember the size of the fermenter which they had, might've been pitching into 1000L in a 2000L FV and then dumping another 1000L wort into the FV a couple days later as the brew rig limit was 1000L. Surprisingly this converts to exactly 11.5grams per 23L, so based on that a similar pitching rate to as recommended by Safale on the packet.
> They rehydrated too, but that's another debate...



I assume you mean a pack of 500g, not 5kg.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Black n Tan said:


> I assume you mean a pack of 500g, not 5kg.



Ah yeah, 500g! Have edited my post, cheers.


----------



## mofox1

manticle said:


> Actually drauflassen. Double dropping is different.


Dammit Manticle! 

Of course you are correct, thanks.

For the rest of us plebs: Double drop fermenting actually refers to transferring off primary into a secondary after a short duration (<24hrs), in order to re-oxygenate the wort. Oddly enough, the Brits do this to *increase* the amount of diacetyl in the finished beer.

Drauflassen, which is what I actually meant and didn't know the word for, is topping up the fermenter with more oxygenated wort (again, similar time period ~24hrs). Drauflassen will allow you to start off with a smaller amount of yeast, proportional to the final ferment volume.

I am now more learned with my words, and will try not to muddle them up the next time!


----------



## Stouter

Stouter said:


> Got an oxy cylinder on what BOC gas call a 'D' plan. $79/yr. pick up at the start full, then another refill within that first year, then one refill each year from then on.


Maybe a little off topic, but it came up...

They also do C02 on the same plan and pricing. At $79 a cylinder refill, how does this compare to what you guys pay? You'd have to go through more than one each year depending on the size of your kegging set up surely, just wondering if it would be cheaper?


----------



## Rocker1986

I pay about $60 every 10-11 months for a CO2 cylinder swap, 6.8kg size.


----------



## peteru

It costs me $50 to refill both a 2.6kg and a 6.8kg cylinder. I use about 2.5-3kg of CO2 per year, so the CO2 refill cost is less than $15/year.

When the cylinders are due to expire, I'll take them for a swap at LHBS instead of refilling them and will try to get replacements that have a decent amount of time left on them.


----------



## Bribie G

peteru said:


> It costs me $50 to refill both a 2.6kg and a 6.8kg cylinder. I use about 2.5-3kg of CO2 per year, so the CO2 refill cost is less than $15/year.
> 
> When the cylinders are due to expire, I'll take them for a swap at LHBS instead of refilling them and will try to get replacements that have a decent amount of time left on them.


And how about the Oxygen?


----------



## peteru

Got a Brewman kit. Not many choices there, you buy another bottle for $55 when the first one runs out. I'm not sure how long it will last. It's certainly a lot less economical than CO2, but the usage rate is going to be a lot lower too.


----------



## Dave70

Sorry to flog an already flailed horse, but can anybody save me trawling back through 35 pages and give the time and reg pressure settings (if it indeed matters), or at least ballpark numbers to aerate a standard 23L batch? (2um stone).
happyface.


----------



## Black Devil Dog

Not sure about the pressure reg settings, but I don't think they're that important anyway. I recall Brewman, telling someone, may have actually been you, haha, that as long as the bubbles are just breaking the surface, that's sufficient. Any more than that and you're wasting o2.
I do mine for around 90-120 seconds.


----------



## kaiserben

1.5 L/min flow rate is what's in my memory. 
And about 60 seconds for 10 ppm. 

But my reg isn't as accurate as that, so ideally I get it so bubbles don't quite, or only just, break the surface. And I do it for just over 60 seconds for a standard beer. (or longer for bigger beers and lagers).


----------



## 2cranky

kaiserben said:


> But my reg isn't as accurate as that, so ideally I get it so bubbles don't quite, or only just, break the surface. And I do it for just over 60 seconds for a standard beer. (or longer for bigger beers and lagers).


Same - adjust so bubbles mostly dissipate before the surface, wave it around in an important manner 60-90 seconds


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

Oxygen is 1.43 g/l at STP so 1.5 l/min is ~ 2.15 g/min. 2.15 g in 23 litres is 93 mg/l.

The above recommendation therefore includes a loss of almost 90%. 

That sounds about right with a standard sinter and around 0.3 m of head. Practice has shown that you need a head of about 6 metres to get < 5% loss with a standard sinter in wine. Wort is probably a little better but should be in the same order of magnitude.


----------



## Dave70

A round of likes for all. 
Seems pretty consistent with the recommendations from a Beer and Brewing article. 

https://beerandbrewing.com/how-to-inject-pure-oxygen-into-wort/

* With low-tech shaking and splashing, there’s no risk of adding too much oxygen to wort, but with a pure gas supply, it’s possible to over-oxygenate, which may or may not cause problems (at the very least, it’s a waste of gas). So set your timer for 60 seconds, dunk the business end of the stone into cool wort, and slowly turn on the regulator until you just start seeing bubbles breach the surface. Start the timer, and when your minute is up, pitch the yeast.*


----------



## Tony121

Dave70 said:


> * ...dunk the business end of the stone into cool wort, and slowly turn on the regulator....*



I would recommend against this as it can clog up your stone. Turn gas on before submerging stone to prevent any issues like that. I have set the reg to the (usually) right flow and just turn on and off at the bottle.


----------



## Batz

Dave70 said:


> * . So set your timer for 60 seconds, dunk the business end of the stone into cool wort, and slowly turn on the regulator until you just start seeing bubbles breach the surface. Start the timer, and when your minute is up, pitch the yeast.*



That's basically how I do it, works well for me.


----------



## 2cranky

Tony121 said:


> I would recommend against this as it can clog up your stone. Turn gas on before submerging stone to prevent any issues like that. I have set the reg to the (usually) right flow and just turn on and off at the bottle.


Yeah this is one detail I missed. 

turn it on
dunk, adjust, time
remove
turn off
rinse and purge (turn on to expel any liquid)
spray with starsan and air dry
Not nice getting wort up your wand!


----------



## Dave70

Then its settled. 
And since Bunnings are charging near $60 for a tiny disposable bottle, I shall be pinching the G size bottle from the trolley in the workshop..


----------



## Gout

Can anyone help me decide on an appropriate O2 reg for the Bunnings Coregas bottle, i think this should do the job?
CigWeld cutskill at total tools (couldn't find them online at Bunnings)


----------



## Lionman

Gout said:


> Can anyone help me decide on an appropriate O2 reg for the Bunnings Coregas bottle, i think this should do the job?
> CigWeld cutskill at total tools (couldn't find them online at Bunnings)



It should work.

Thats a lot of O2 for home brewing. Are you doing really big batches?


----------



## Crusty

Gout said:


> Can anyone help me decide on an appropriate O2 reg for the Bunnings Coregas bottle, i think this should do the job?
> CigWeld cutskill at total tools (couldn't find them online at Bunnings)



I'm using the exact setup.


----------



## rude

Lionman said:


> It should work.
> 
> Thats a lot of O2 for home brewing. Are you doing really big batches?



$70 for D size not much dearer than the disposable ones
Reg is a ridgy didge o2 safe but another $80 bucks
$200 bucks refundable bottle
I recon its the way to go 
More money better beer mmm might have to pull the trigger soon
Any more feed back from long time o2 users


----------



## pcqypcqy

rude said:


> $70 for D size not much dearer than the disposable ones
> Reg is a ridgy didge o2 safe but another $80 bucks
> $200 bucks refundable bottle
> I recon its the way to go
> More money better beer mmm might have to pull the trigger soon
> Any more feed back from long time o2 users



I too am in the same boat, the Bunnings bottle with a halfway decent regulator seems to be much more cost effective than the disposable stuff. 

I probably would have done it by now if it wasn't for that pesky mash master mill bulk buy.


----------



## Crusty

I'm more than happy with mine.
I run it at around 5psi for 90sec to 2mins before pitching.
I won't be needing a cylinder exchange for quite a while.


----------



## mtb

I went a slightly cheaper route, I won't know how cost effective it is until the bottle runs out. It's been some time though, about 50 batches in so far.

Cheap reg: http://www.mybeershop.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=202

Disposable bottle: https://www.bunnings.com.au/tradeflame-930ml-oxygen-gas-cartridge_p5910241

My current bottle has had the reg attached but in the closed position between brews for 9 months now, if it were leaking I'd say it'd be empty by now. So the reg gets my vote. 

Then you just need some tubing and a diffusion stone. All up around $90 for the lot, cheaper if you can find that reg on ebay like I did.


----------



## pcqypcqy

Crusty said:


> I'm more than happy with mine.
> I run it at around 5psi for 90sec to 2mins before pitching.
> I won't be needing a cylinder exchange for quite a while.



Apologies if this has been discussed prior, but this thread has become a beast so can't wade through 36 pages to find the relevant parts.

Just wondering, as DO meters are quite expensive, has anyone quantified the real benefit to this in a home brew application yet? I'm not doubting that it will improve things, but are we adding enough? Too much?

Curious as to how people have arrived at the pressure/flowrate and durations they use? 

Is using a flow rate regulator better than a pressure regulator, or does it not really matter?


----------



## Crusty

pcqypcqy said:


> Apologies if this has been discussed prior, but this thread has become a beast so can't wade through 36 pages to find the relevant parts.
> 
> Just wondering, as DO meters are quite expensive, has anyone quantified the real benefit to this in a home brew application yet? I'm not doubting that it will improve things, but are we adding enough? Too much?
> 
> Curious as to how people have arrived at the pressure/flowrate and durations they use?
> 
> Is using a flow rate regulator better than a pressure regulator, or does it not really matter?



Anything over 5psi is too much oxygen through the wand causing excess foaming so that's about where I run it.
As for the flow amount & time, I'm not sure scientifically what's the exact amount required. From all the info that I have been able to dig up, 60-90sec for Ales & 90-120sec for Lagers seems to be commonly used. Adding oxygen for that amount of time is reportedly achieving 12-14ppm of pure oxygen into the wort which is the optimum level required.


----------



## pcqypcqy

Dissolved oxygen meter bulk buy?


----------



## pcqypcqy

Seriously though, doing a bit of reading on this it seems like a visual / colourmetric kit like this might be good enough for calibrating some rough flow rate / pressure / duration values to see what ppm dissolved oxygen you end up with.

https://www.chemetrics.com.au/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=443

The kit costs $140 ish, and goes darkest at 12ppm. So basically we're just trying to just max it out on this scale.

Might be an interesting experiment. I'll talk to my club about it as a group purchase.

It would be no good on the fly, but it would let you dial in a number beforehand. Could do some tests on different gravity/temperature worts and see what happens.

I'm talking myself into it as I go here.....


----------



## rude

mtb said:


> I went a slightly cheaper route, I won't know how cost effective it is until the bottle runs out. It's been some time though, about 50 batches in so far.
> 
> Cheap reg: http://www.mybeershop.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=202
> 
> Disposable bottle: https://www.bunnings.com.au/tradeflame-930ml-oxygen-gas-cartridge_p5910241
> 
> My current bottle has had the reg attached but in the closed position between brews for 9 months now, if it were leaking I'd say it'd be empty by now. So the reg gets my vote.
> 
> Then you just need some tubing and a diffusion stone. All up around $90 for the lot, cheaper if you can find that reg on ebay like I did.




I think that isn't an o2 reg its co2 argon
There was a lot of discussion on it earlier in this thread
Thats why I would go the bunnings 02 reg for safety


----------



## malt junkie

pcqypcqy said:


> Seriously though, doing a bit of reading on this it seems like a visual / colourmetric kit like this might be good enough for calibrating some rough flow rate / pressure / duration values to see what ppm dissolved oxygen you end up with.
> 
> https://www.chemetrics.com.au/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=443
> 
> The kit costs $140 ish, and goes darkest at 12ppm. So basically we're just trying to just max it out on this scale.
> 
> Might be an interesting experiment. I'll talk to my club about it as a group purchase.
> 
> It would be no good on the fly, but it would let you dial in a number beforehand. Could do some tests on different gravity/temperature worts and see what happens.
> 
> I'm talking myself into it as I go here.....


Do you live near @mtb there seams to be some sort of expenditure virus going around, possibly airborne, more likely some nasty home brew yeast mutation.( be aware this virus can badly affect marital relations and ones sex life in general) 


Back on topic I to am looking at heading down the coregas/cigweld combo and have to agree these bloody BB's keep getting me off track!


----------



## pcqypcqy

malt junkie said:


> Do you live near @mtb there seams to be some sort of expenditure virus going around, possibly airborne, more likely some nasty home brew yeast mutation.( be aware this virus can badly affect marital relations and ones sex life in general)
> 
> 
> Back on topic I to am looking at heading down the coregas/cigweld combo and have to agree these bloody BB's keep getting me off track!



But this one is for science!


----------



## Gout

Crusty said:


> I'm using the exact setup.
> 
> View attachment 109209
> View attachment 109210


Awesome, then i will pull the trigger tomorrow. Thank you

Lionman, its a lot of gas, but i already have CO2, and Argoshield all on a similar non rental bottle swap deal and it lasts me ages but has been good for me. I think the O2 should also be good value.

That said i have a large shed and brew shed so room is not an issue - if it was then things might be different


----------



## 2cranky

pcqypcqy said:


> Seriously though, doing a bit of reading on this it seems like a visual / colourmetric kit like this might be good enough for calibrating some rough flow rate / pressure / duration values to see what ppm dissolved oxygen you end up with.
> 
> https://www.chemetrics.com.au/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=443
> 
> The kit costs $140 ish, and goes darkest at 12ppm. So basically we're just trying to just max it out on this scale.
> 
> Might be an interesting experiment. I'll talk to my club about it as a group purchase.
> 
> It would be no good on the fly, but it would let you dial in a number beforehand. Could do some tests on different gravity/temperature worts and see what happens.
> 
> I'm talking myself into it as I go here.....



I use O2 but I view it as food for the yeast. The difference between too many bubbles, not enough bubbles, too long a time, not enough time is minimal. It all works, it all helps the yeast.
I got a Bunnings disposable and eBay Reg. Still going after 25+ batches. Since I’ve been using O2 every batch has taken off strong and finished well. Prior I had a few batches that took longer to get going and 1 that stalled a bit in the end. O2 has given me the confidence that every batch is going to chug away as expected. 
For these reasons I wouldn’t bother trying to measure O2 absorption. I’d rather spend money on control of measurements for volume and wort temperature.

But if you just need to know, like for science and shit, why not.


----------



## Batz

rude said:


> I think that isn't an o2 reg its co2 argon
> There was a lot of discussion on it earlier in this thread
> Thats why I would go the bunnings 02 reg for safety



Nope that's O2 regulator alright.


----------



## pcqypcqy

I've realised that the colour of the beer will throw the colour of the sample. But in a 100% pale unhopped test wort, it may still yield useful results. I will have a bit more of a think.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

It's based on indigo carmine, you can achieve the same result with methylene blue. I've posted before on how to use methylene blue to indicate dissolved oxygen including how to control for colour. BTW you can fake the test up to higher ranges by using thinner sample vials for the test.


----------



## pcqypcqy

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> It's based on indigo carmine, you can achieve the same result with methylene blue. I've posted before on how to use methylene blue to indicate dissolved oxygen including how to control for colour. BTW you can fake the test up to higher ranges by using thinner sample vials for the test.



I thought I had seen something on this. Thanks for the link.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

I'll be doing some methylene blue testing in the next few weeks to validate the results of the oxygenation method I've been working on, I'll post the results so you can see how it works.


----------



## Rocker1986

Where can I find the method for testing it with methylene blue? I have some of it and am curious about giving it a go.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

Rocker1986 said:


> Where can I find the method for testing it with methylene blue? I have some of it and am curious about giving it a go.



In the LODO thread, the method discussed is for low DO2 levels but it's adapatable to higher.


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> I'll be doing some methylene blue testing in the next few weeks to validate the results of the oxygenation method I've been working on, I'll post the results so you can see how it works.



Is the oxygenation technique that won't require an O2 bottle? If it is, I'm mighty keen to see the results of that.


----------



## rude

http://www.mybeershop.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=202

I must be missing something then, which isn't unusual for me vague at the best of times


----------



## gap

rude said:


> http://www.mybeershop.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=202
> 
> I must be missing something then, which isn't unusual for me vague at the best of times


First line on the ad "You are looking a regulator for disposable CO2 and ARGON bottles"


----------



## mtb

Then the ad is incomplete. It does oxygen.


----------



## Rocker1986

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> In the LODO thread, the method discussed is for low DO2 levels but it's adapatable to higher.


Awesome, thanks mate. I'll have a read soon.


----------



## rude

mtb said:


> Then the ad is incomplete. It does oxygen.


Cool thanks for that mtb & Batz
Has it got o2 stamped on it by any chance
Cant remember the argument all that time ago but I think it should be stamped could be wrong
If it is o2 compatable sounds like a good option cheers


----------



## mtb

rude said:


> Cool thanks for that mtb & Batz
> Has it got o2 stamped on it by any chance
> Cant remember the argument all that time ago but I think it should be stamped could be wrong
> If it is o2 compatable sounds like a good option cheers


It isn't stamped with anything besides the max operating pressure.
My Micromatic CO2 regulator also isn't stamped with anything to indicate it can handle CO2 though.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> Is the oxygenation technique that won't require an O2 bottle? If it is, I'm mighty keen to see the results of that.



I have finally lodged the provisional patent, so I can reveal a little more of what I'm doing. New thread.

I'm looking for beta testers, first in best dressed.

Edit: Beta testing slots now filled.


----------



## scotthbutler

SBOB said:


> and what do you think the difference is between 'industrial' and 'medical' oxygen?
> O2 is O2 is O2.
> aint nothing growing in there, and they aint adding or removing any 'magic' from the industrial version
> 
> 
> medical oxygen just requires a higher level of traceability and likely an extra decimal point worth of guarantee in its purity (i.e 99.999% v 99.9999%)



Medical or aviation O2 is dryer than industrial O2. That’s the only real difference and yes it comes with a certificate of conformity in most cases


----------



## micbrew

does anyone know if these mini regs are available in Melbourne , (retail) tried local total tools and supagas ..
supagas wanted $66 .. wanted to get by the weekend ..if not will wait for postage from WA I suppose


----------



## Batz

Gout said:


> Can anyone help me decide on an appropriate O2 reg for the Bunnings Coregas bottle, i think this should do the job?
> CigWeld cutskill at total tools (couldn't find them online at Bunnings)




Did you get one Gout? Otherwise I maybe able to help you out.


----------



## Gout

Batz said:


> Did you get one Gout? Otherwise I maybe able to help you out.


Hi Batz, yeah I grabbed one from just tools... Not the CIG one but a michigan branded O2 reg, it was $20 cheaper.

The first brew I did with O2 has raced down in gravity and seems to have overcome my high finishing gravity problem. So all in all it's been worth the investment as far as I can tell. I should have enough O2 to last a lifetime


----------



## Mardoo

Batz said:


> Did you get one Gout? Otherwise I maybe able to help you out.


If you still have helping out available I need a decent O2 reg.


----------



## Rosey6

How does this work sorry I’m a novice


----------



## Mardoo

How much of a novice? A little background would be helpful so we can give you the right information. Do you know about making sure yeast has enough oxygen? Are you familiar with some of the methods of making oxygen available to the yeast? Also, if you're just starting out brewing, pay attention to using a proper amount of healthy yeast and control of fermentation temperature before you worry too much about oxygenation. O2 is a great help, but not if you don't have the basics down first.


----------



## Lionman

mtb said:


> I went a slightly cheaper route, I won't know how cost effective it is until the bottle runs out. It's been some time though, about 50 batches in so far.
> 
> Cheap reg: http://www.mybeershop.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=202
> 
> Disposable bottle: https://www.bunnings.com.au/tradeflame-930ml-oxygen-gas-cartridge_p5910241
> 
> My current bottle has had the reg attached but in the closed position between brews for 9 months now, if it were leaking I'd say it'd be empty by now. So the reg gets my vote.
> 
> Then you just need some tubing and a diffusion stone. All up around $90 for the lot, cheaper if you can find that reg on ebay like I did.



I use the same gear, works great and not much to outlay upfront.



Gout said:


> Awesome, then i will pull the trigger tomorrow. Thank you
> 
> Lionman, its a lot of gas, but i already have CO2, and Argoshield all on a similar non rental bottle swap deal and it lasts me ages but has been good for me. I think the O2 should also be good value.
> 
> That said i have a large shed and brew shed so room is not an issue - if it was then things might be different



You will never use all that gas in a life time, unless you get a leak. The disposable bottles hold enough that I shouldn't have to replace it for a few years. Its better for me as its smaller and easier to store.


----------



## Lionman

Rosey6 said:


> How does this work sorry I’m a novice



I think it works buy providing yeast oxygen during their growth phase, which allows the yeast to build to bigger healthier cell count, which leads to faster, cleaner and more complete fermentation. If you're pitching a lot of yeast, like pitching on yeast cake, i dont think its needed.

I'm sure someone will tell me I'm wrong.


----------



## Gout

Lionman said:


> You will never use all that gas in a life time, unless you get a leak. The disposable bottles hold enough that I shouldn't have to replace it for a few years. Its better for me as its smaller and easier to store.


Sorry i wasn't trying to say its the only way to go - and i agree its heaps more o2 than required, just for me it seemed a good way to go. I have other bottles of the same size on similar agreements and it works OK for me. ...... and i might be able to tell my wife an oxy set is now worth while - again not really needed but hey.

The CO2 is the best return (I used to hire bottles many years ago but the rent free agreement is perfect for me)
then mig gas ( i randomly weld but when i do its great - so beats rental)
O2 is just for beer (might be average value but i'm happy enough with it)

If i used logic i wouldn't have all the toys i never use in my shed "just in case"


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy

Hey Gout, a nurse friend of mine used to suck in a bit of oxygen when she had a hangover. I've never tried it but she used to swear by it. 

Maybe there's another use for your massive supply of O2.


----------



## Gout

FarsideOfCrazy said:


> Hey Gout, a nurse friend of mine used to suck in a bit of oxygen when she had a hangover. I've never tried it but she used to swear by it.
> Maybe there's another use for your massive supply of O2.



yeah... nah i think i'll give that a miss  surly it was a O2 mix or at least only a very slow release so it mixed in with the ambient air your breathing in like people with breathing difficulty/masks.
That said i hear the casino's enrich the air with o2 to keep people awake and gambling deep into the night (so i was told when in Vegas)


----------



## MHB

Must have had a misspent youth - I remember a few mornings at work sticking the Oxy cutter into a welding glove and deep breathing... it helps, coffee aspro OJ and all the usual, but O2 helps.

Urban myth, the one about Oxygen in casinos, I think Ray Bradbury did it as a short story in the 50's. Back then you could still smoke indoors so I think people would have noticed the really fast cigarettes if nothing else.
Mark


----------



## pcqypcqy

Has anyone done an in-line O2 set up with a counter flow or plate chiller on a homebrew scale? Does this address the efficieny issues noted by LC and a few others, i.e. that a decent portion of the oxygen introduced via a stone can simply be lost to the atmosphere?


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

It would if you had a long enough hose: 6 metres should do it.


----------



## pcqypcqy

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> It would if you had a long enough hose: 6 metres should do it.



I take it that this length needs to be after the stone? If you tried injecting on the hot side, this would reduce the efficiency again I take it.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

I've never seen a setup with injection on the hot side. The reasoning has always been that due to the solubility being lower and the reaction rates being higher there will be an increase in undesireable side reactions.


----------



## pcqypcqy

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> I've never seen a setup with injection on the hot side. The reasoning has always been that due to the solubility being lower and the reaction rates being higher there will be an increase in undesireable side reactions.



Yep, understood. My point is that I can see this working for a hard plumbed system like in a brewery, but for a counterflow chiller in a home brew set up, having an additional 6m of coil/pipe on the cold side increases build costs and infection risks. The cost of gas being much cheaper than copper of course.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

Large breweries have hard lines between brewhouse and fermenters* but most craft scale breweries don't, they simply use a length of Brewer's Delivery hose.

At HB scale you'd get away with a few metres of silicone hose.


*Fun fact: When I worked for the first large scale "craft" brewery in Australia many, many years ago, they set up a new brewery in an old car factory which was long and thin. Whoever installed the hard lines forgot to factor in thermal expansion during hot wash, the lines would buckle badly enough to lift off their supports.


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

This wort oxygenation thing for real, or what. Is it really that different than pitching well and shaking the shid outta your carboy?


----------



## manticle

Yes. There's a lot of info out there about the recommended o2 level and the maximum shaking can achieve.


----------



## Coldspace

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> This wort oxygenation thing for real, or what. Is it really that different than pitching well and shaking the shid outta your carboy?


Yes, if all other process is dialed in. It's not miracle cure, just another better technique in the chain of brewing.


----------



## MHB

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> This wort oxygenation thing for real, or what. Is it really that different than pitching well and shaking the shid outta your carboy?


No we are all making it up to cover for the embarrassment of having spent good hard earned on O2 systems.
Doing a good job of hiding our mistakes aren't we 38 pages and over 750 posts in this thread alone, it isn't the only O2 thread around either.
Seriously dude if you want to know the answer, its been addresses enough times earlier in this thread.
Mark


----------



## Jack of all biers

Jack of all biers said:


> ... other than one H2O2 bottle that to me tasted like a shandy (if I didn't open the bottle, pour it myself and have held onto it the whole time, I would have been convinced that someone put lemonade in there). Two mates tasted that same bottle and one said unhelpfully, "it tastes weird" and the other said "It tastes like cardboard". Ah ha, I thought. This mate has no idea about the experiment or any experience with beer flavours (off flavours) other than the barrels he's drunk in his life so far. I was convinced this would spell the beginning of things to come, and it may yet, but H2O2 bottles consumed since show no similar flavours. It's also interesting that I could taste a Lemonade flavour? and he said "cardboard". I'm convinced that that bottle was oxidised, but one bottle proves nothing, so the experiment goes on.
> 
> ....
> 
> The tasting comparison will go on.



So this will be my last post about the H2O2 experiment, as all the bottles are finished (after 8 months). All up, I found that about 6 of the H2O2 bottles showed similar signs to the early find I described above. Only one of the aerated bottles (from 25L) showed a similar flavour, which I put down to oxidising from bottling. So 6 from the entire 25L batch 'oxygenated' by H2O2 were less than good. All the others were fairly good and to top things off, after the last few raised the total up, the very last one was great. All up the aerated batch tasted better all through, with the H2O2 being more hit and miss. I think this does indicate that, for me at least, the idea was good, but the randomness of the O- factor defecting your beers, is just not worth it.

H2O2 as a ghetto oxygenation method. Nah, you're better off aerating.

(I'll post this in the H2O2 thread that Adr_0 started up, but thought as all my original results are on this thread, I'd post here first.)


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Mardoo said:


> Just to add another option, "vitality starters". Putting your single-batch pitch on the stirplate with 500ml of fresh wort, and spinning the hell out of it for 4-6 hours. You oxygenate the vitality starter wort (or not), and then spin it up with the yeast. This is to oxygenate the yeast as fully as possible in the phase it most needs it, rather than oxygenating your entire batch of wort. I've done a few of them now and, anecdotally speaking, I can't tell the difference between batches of the same wort done on the same yeast, one with the vitality starter and the other with more typical oxygenation. I'm seeing krausen within 8 hours using the vitality starters. Apparently the idea originally came from Coors, via Colin Kaminsky.
> 
> _Coors England developed an amazing method that is perfect for homebrewers to steal. Take a stir plate and make a starter. Add yeast and 10˚P wort [1.040 SG]. Aerate for 4 hours. At the end of 4 hours pitch into the wort. Do not aerate the batch. This maximizes “vitality.” Vitality is the most difficult to measure and important parameter in yeast. A standard starter is fermented out and then re-pitched. This [a vitality starter] uses continuous air and only allows the starter to spin for 4 hours. No alcohol is produced. The yeast respires but does not enter fermentation until after it’s pitched into the wort._
> 
> Apparently the technique originally came from two folks named Boulton and Quain.
> 
> It's an interesting notion that's holding out in my fermentations, at least according to flavour and storage duration. I wouldn't say it's making better beer than any other means of getting O2 to the yeast, but it certainly seems at least equal to the others.


Really interesting Mardoo, I have found other reads on this subject but I first came across it some time ago I believe it was in the 60's some UK brewers had success with this method but I thought they were injecting the o2 into the starter which I have since read would kill the yeast. 
You may be interested in this. http://www.beertools.com/html/articles.php?view=251


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

wide eyed and legless said:


> I thought they were injecting the o2 into the starter which I have since read would kill the yeast.



That's not true, you can oxygenate a starter to your heart's content. What you shouldn't do is oxygenate dormant cropped yeast.


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## Doctormcbrewdle

http://brulosophy.com/2015/07/13/wort-aeration-pt-2-shaken-vs-pure-oxygen-exbeeriment-results/


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## technobabble66

Lol, you might need a flamesuit with that ^^

Typical Brulosophy experiment: highly-hopped 5% APA beer with lots of malts/fermentables, struggles to detect any difference between industry standard practice and a backyard shortcut.

Worth noting you don't NEED O2 to brew beer or even produce a decent/good result, and some styles are less likely to exhibit differences. However, there is a benefit to using the O2 if you have access to it.

I've learnt to take these experiments with a massive pile of salt.


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## MHB

One of interesting effects of the WWW is the amount of information available, sadly there is a lot of it really is Fake News (to use a Trumpism), ill-researched, opinion, otherwise well dressed crap and brulosophy. As well related to science as is the anti-immunisation crowd, conspiracy theorists...
Try this as a starting point Oxygen_1[1].pdf
There is also plenty of information on the amount of O2 you will get into solution from shaking, bubbling, stir plates (not enough) - as compared to what you can get by using pure O2.
Mark


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## warra48

Holy crap, batman, why try to keep reinventing the wheel when best practice, and one widely used commercially, is to us pure oxygen?
Even the worst commercial brewer doesn't wouldn't and shouldn't use some crappy ill tested theory from the WWW about some alternative unproven method.
For goodness sake, we have access to a reliable effective oxygen infusion method at, really, very little cost per batch. Why try to save $0.00002 per batch when it's pointless?
For what it's worth, I use the BrewMan system, and it works just fine for me.


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## Batz

warra48 said:


> Holy crap, batman, why try to keep reinventing the wheel when best practice, and one widely used commercially, is to us pure oxygen?
> Even the worst commercial brewer doesn't wouldn't and shouldn't use some crappy ill tested theory from the WWW about some alternative unproven method.
> For goodness sake, we have access to a reliable effective oxygen infusion method at, really, very little cost per batch. Why try to save $0.00002 per batch when it's pointless?
> For what it's worth, I use the BrewMan system, and it works just fine for me.


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## peteru

And steam engines are all we ever needed. Why would you want to invent an internal combustion engine?

For what it's worth, I've got the Brewman kit, but I'm more than happy to give alternatives a go and compare the experiences and results. If there's a better way, you are not going to find it by resisting change or discouraging experimentation.


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## MHB

peteru said:


> And steam engines are all we ever needed. Why would you want to invent an internal combustion engine?
> 
> For what it's worth, I've got the Brewman kit, but I'm more than happy to give alternatives a go and compare the experiences and results. If there's a better way, you are not going to find it by resisting change or discouraging experimentation.



Ok going to both agree and disagree, I strongly encourage experimentation and learning, there are lots of ways to achieve our goals as brewers - the BUT - within the constraints that are established by good research and brewing knowledge.
For example someone wanting to mash at 99oC wont get very far and we know why, mashing happens at well understood temperatures, pH's and at known rates. A brewer can use a fancy computer controlled system, a 3V system, BIAB even an old esky, lots of room for how you mash - same enzymes, temps, pH... still apply.
Same with wort aeration, the atmosphere is 21% Oxygen, no matter what you do you can only get a very limited amount of O2 into solution at a given temperature and pressure using air.
We know from many years experimentation that the amount is less than ideal, if you want better beer, the PDF I posted (#760) even explains the consequences of too mush/little O2.
How you get to the ideal level is going to be open to lots of discussion, the pros and cons of having the right amount isn't really negotiable.
Mark


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## peteru

In that case we are in agreement. Someone has done the hard work of figuring out the appropriate oxygen requirements. Those requirements are non-negotiable and are dictated by biology. And yes, physics dictates other constraints, such as how much O2 you can keep in solution. Again, this is also non-negotiable, it's just going to happen.

The interesting part is to now come up with a good method for delivery. The established method that has been adequate is to add O2 gas in one big hit right at the start fermentation. At the homebrew scale, getting the right DO level is mainly guesswork when bubbling O2 gas through a bucket of wort at around 20C with a stone 50cm under the surface. Will 90 seconds give me 8ppm or 16ppm? I don't know and I don't think that reproducibility is very high either. That extra 1/4 turn on the regulator knob could make a big difference.

I've had a few goes at the H2O2 method and found that it wasn't making a significant improvement.

I've had fewer goes with the Brewman O2 gas through the stone. It had an apparent effect on the initial stages of fermentation and the end results were good. I would not go as far as saying that adding O2 took my beer to the next level. I think switching to big active starters was that step-up. I also made the mistake of pitching on top of a yeast cake from the previous batch AND adding O2 - massive overpitch, plus extra yeast growth. I guess I learned from my mistake there!

I've had one go with the electrical oxygenator so far. In terms of practicality it's no harder (perhaps a bit easier and more convenient) to use than the Brewman O2 kit. According to the chart, I should have ended up with the equivalent of 10ppm DO over a period of three hours. That was 48 hours ago. Looking at the fermenter now, I see healthy activity on par with what I have observed with the Brewman kit. I'll observe the progress of this fermentation and then for my next batch, I'll try to do a split side-by-side fermentation with both @Brewman_ compressed O2 kit and @Lyrebird_Cycles electrical oxygenator. I've got two 10L plastic containers that should fit in my fermentation fridge. As much as I dislike bottling, I'll bottle the two test batches so that I can perform sensory testing over a period of time.

Any suggestions for a simple ale recipe that would be good at identifying fermentation faults? Something like SMaSH with Gladfield pale malt to 1.060 and Mosaic to 30 IBU? In terms of yeast, I can either do a rehydrated packet of US-05 or an active starter of WLP002.

Another variable (that I haven't researched) might be the period over which yeast (or more correctly the fermentation) will benefit from having O2 supplied and at what concentration. For example, is 1 minute at 12ppm, followed by a natural decline better than 180 minutes at 8ppm followed by a natural decline?


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## MHB

We are pretty much on the same page, proper use of O2 is to my mind very important to consistency and yes its hard as a home brewer to count cells and monitor yeast health.
I agree that an active starter, pitched into a healthy well aerated wort is key to faultless, fast and repeatable ferments - and results in consistent quality beer.
Although we cant measure dissolved O2 easily, I would invite you to look at the table of solubility verses temperature in the PDF above





Note the solubility in wort at 20oC is only 7.4ppm, a little less than the 10ppm ideal. If you overdo the O2 a bit, wait a few minutes before pitching the yeast, the amount of dissolved O2 will drop back to around the stated value for a given temperature pretty quickly.
It will be pretty easy to work up a procedure that will give consistent results.
How you get there isn't for me an issue, I find LC's electrolyser fascinating, an happy and confidant using a Brewman system (more correctly he is happy selling the system I put together), for years I used an industrial sized O2 bottle (because I had one) and know that we will get better results using O2.
Mark


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## Hpal

Been doing O2 the last few batches in conjunction with Pressure fermenting and the results are great, just industrial oxygen no problems. I aerated a starter yesterday and it was going off it’s Tits after 3 hours, amazing.


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## wide eyed and legless

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> That's not true, you can oxygenate a starter to your heart's content. What you shouldn't do is oxygenate dormant cropped yeast.


Very true, just goes to show that one can't take everything they read as gospel, Mastering Homebrew Randy Mosher (hack).

Anyone interested in purchasing a DO meter, I have a feeling not knowing the dissolved oxygen of the wort may have put a negative slant on oxygenating for me, when I first tried it I couldn't see any noticeable difference from my standard aerated brews except for a RIS I made some years ago (my wake beer) But now after reading more about it I am thinking that knowing what the dissolved oxygen amount is would be beneficial.


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## yankinoz

A modest proposal: will everyone who posts their experiences with and without oxygenation please say whether they used dry or liquid yeasts? Manufacturers of liquid yeasts recommend aeration, preferably oxygenation. Among manufacturers of dry yeasts, Danstar and Fermentis say it isn't necessary, nor is aeration. That isn't some "crappy ill-tested theory," it's based on their extensive research and their addition of lipids to the yeast.


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## warra48

Only ever use liquid yeast, so yes, I oxygenate.


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## Shadime

For US-05 Fermentis says:
'then mix the wort using aeration or by wort addition.'


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## Black n Tan

yankinoz said:


> A modest proposal: will everyone who posts their experiences with and without oxygenation please say whether they used dry or liquid yeasts? Manufacturers of liquid yeasts recommend aeration, preferably oxygenation. Among manufacturers of dry yeasts, Danstar and Fermentis say it isn't necessary, nor is aeration. That isn't some "crappy ill-tested theory," it's based on their extensive research and their addition of lipids to the yeast.




No but it a "crappy ill-tested" account of their advice:

Fermentis states "As the yeast is grown aerobically, the yeast is less sensitive on first pitch. Aeration is recommended to ensure full mixing of the wort and yeast." and "oxygen is required to ensure a health yeast multiplication". 

So they do seem to recommend aeration. I also do not believe they add lipid to their yeast but instead grow aerobically to maximise lipid synthesis.


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Not sure if anyone's mentioned this yet but can you use a fish tank oxygenator? Just thinking about overhauling my technique for pale ale's especially. Thanks


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## mtb

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Not sure if anyone's mentioned this yet but can you use a fish tank oxygenator? Just thinking about overhauling my technique for pale ale's especially. Thanks


Do you mean a fish tank aerator? They're not oxygenators.


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Guess so, Mr. Smartypants. 

So, in all your wisdom, will this suffice?



mtb said:


> Do you mean a fish tank aerator? They're not oxygenators.


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## mtb

The point I was making is that there is a fair difference between oxygenation and aeration, in this context. Maximum oxygen saturation obtained by using "room air" - ie aerating - is far lower than oxygenating with pure O2. One of the more edumacated folks here (LC or MHB probably) have already discussed it earlier in this thread.

So it'll work, but only as well as shaking the bejesus out of your wort pre-pitch. Gotta use a high oxygen source, not room air.

ed: this is a good source in regard to fish tank aerators and it points out the aforementioned difference between aeration and oxygenation. The info already in this thread is more than sufficient but sifting through the pages to find it is a pain in the arse. http://www.keepfishalive.com/oxygenation-vs-aeration.php


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## wide eyed and legless

Sierra Nevada aerates, I don't know if its because they use open fermenters. I suppose the big commercial breweries would have to use oxygen when turning out a high volume low cost product, to make the best of the available fermenter space they make a high gravity wort then when finished fermentation dilute it down, makes sense really. But the amount of oxygen is worked out precisely in accordance with the yeast strain, yeast viability, wort temperature and wort gravity.
So as a home brewing pleb I suppose it has to be trial and error, not enough oxygen is no good and to much is no good, can't just give the wort a big squirt up the guts and say she'll be right mate.


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## MHB

Commercial operations have the luxury of being able to count yeast and measure O2 quickly and accurately.
The "Ideal" amount of both is related, more yeast needs to do less reproducing in the wort to reach the right population - needs less dissolved O2. Lower pitch rate and the yeast needs to do more reproducing so requires more O2.

The amount of and the vitality of the yeast has big impacts on the finished beer, bare in mind that consistency is the byword in commercial brewing.
We want the yeast to consume some of the wort components (mainly lipids and some proteins), if the balance between pitch rate and O2 is spot on the yeast will consume all the available nutrients including O2 (that we want it to remove) and produce a high enough population of yeast to finish the ferment quickly, produce the flavours the brewer wants, without the down sides (like reducing bitterness) of overpitching.

In a big brewery it is even more complicated by the fact that the yeast is reused, so the brewer wants all the above and at the same time is trying to farm a population of yeast that is in top condition (healthy and lots of young yeast cells) for repitching.

As home brewers I think we really cant expect to be anywhere near as precise, nor are we under the same time pressures, nor expecting the same consistency standards. If we have good healthy yeast, pitch a reasonable amount into a well aerated wort - we have every reason to expect good fairly consistent results.

O2 is in effect pretty cheap, if you use a bit too much and just wait a few minutes before pitching the amount of dissolved O2 will probably be a little less than ideal - but adequate. (see solubility table above).

Mark


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## wide eyed and legless

So Mark do you reckon its worthwhile to get a DO meter?


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## MHB

No, (well yes if knowing that a decent O2 meter is $400+ it depends on how much that matters to you). Its hard enough to get people to spend less than half of that on a good O2 system.
Unless you are really madly overdoing the O2, given the solubility in a wort pretty it's pretty hard to overdo the amount of DO, just work out a procedure that works and adjust the yeast pitch to suit. remember that the solubility is a temperature dependant limit, just oxygenate the wort wait a few minutes for it to stabilise and pitch. With dry yeast, give the yeast time to hydrate (for US-05 they say 30 minuted) then use O2 to mix, probably 1-2 minutes at a steady flow - enough to cause mixing.

I would like a DO meter, more for tracing DO in packaging, so a PPB range meter - think K$ haven't got those sort of $'s kicking around.
A good O2 system and a good procedure should be more than adequate.
Mark


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## laxation

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Not sure if anyone's mentioned this yet but can you use a fish tank oxygenator? Just thinking about overhauling my technique for pale ale's especially. Thanks


Yes it works, but not as well.
This morning was listening to a Chris White (white labs) talk and he said the fish tank thing will get you to 3-4ppm after an hour (dunno if ppm is the word, but the numbers were 3-4) but hold it there for a while.
Whereas O2 system will get you to the 8ppm that he recommended, in a minute.

Shaking was 2ppm

So according to that talk, the fish tank is better than nothing, but not the best.


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## wide eyed and legless

Wyeast throw in different figures to those.


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## laxation

Interesting the difference... maybe just me remembering the numbers wrong. The premise though seems to make sense.

(I am just passing on what I heard btw - I just use a paint mixer..)


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## wide eyed and legless

There's probably lots of different answers, I did notice the Wyeast video was sponsored by Northern Brewer, would have made more sense to me to use your figures if they are trying to sell the oxygenating set up. Then again I cheat.


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## Doctormcbrewdle

How about leaving an aquarium oxy generator on inside the fermenter for a couple of days while the yeast get working. Is this a good idea? I understand you do NOT want oxygen hanging around post fermentation


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## wide eyed and legless

If you have a stroller handy, (usually see loads on hard rubbish collection) strap the fermenter into the stroller and push it backwards and forwards vigorously for a couple of minutes, especially with a burst of oxygen in the head space. A good article here.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1974.tb03614.x/pdf


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## peteru

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> How about leaving an aquarium oxy generator on inside the fermenter for a couple of days while the yeast get working. Is this a good idea? I understand you do NOT want oxygen hanging around post fermentation



If it was that simple, people would be doing it.

You want rapid initial growth that is measured in hours, not days. The growth needs sterols, which you can either supply in the form of oleic acid or the yeast can synthesise them when oxygen is available. There is an optimal O2 concentration and that is higher than what you can possibly get into solution using air bubbles.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

There's an optimal yeast uptake level rather than an optimal DO2 level as such.. In single shot wort oxygenation, as commonly practised, the two are equivalent but that isn't the case for other delivery methods and may well not be the case for the method mentioned.

Logically the optimal level of DO2 is zero as long as the yeast get their oxygen.


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Dang. Because I really don't even oxygenate my wort. The stupid fermenters I have are snap lid and I just cant shake them.. most I do is swish a paddle around in it for 30 seconds and try not to spill too much out the top.

Lately I've been holding the syphon high and trying to 'splash' the wort into fermenters though. But it's probably not doing much


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## Doctormcbrewdle

How bout the ol' paint stirrer electric beater? Might try that and see for next batch!


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## laxation

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> How bout the ol' paint stirrer electric beater? Might try that and see for next batch!


I use this and my beer tastes good https://www.bunnings.com.au/uni-pro-large-paint-drill-mixer_p1670154 
other than that scientific analysis, I don't have much to add...

I do it for a few min, pretty much until the wort is about to froth over the edge. 
Hopefully getting an o2 system for xmas from santa though


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## manticle

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> How bout the ol' paint stirrer electric beater? Might try that and see for next batch!


Paint stirrer/drill will get you as much as a good shake and a good shake is better than no shake. Good shake will top out about 8ppm - 10 is recommended.

Pure oxy is optimum obviously but if you don't have the setup, do what you can.

Make sure the stirrer is completely clean and sanitised, obviously.


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## Phoney

I noticed a massive difference when I went from beating with a spoon to using a stick blender for up to 10mins (until it got too hot to touch).

Moving from the blender to the 02 - bugger all difference, if anything maybe slightly quicker to get to FG. That said, 60 seconds of pumping gas is much more convenient than making a giant milkshake for 10 minutes so I have no regrets.


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## Coodgee

to be honest, after getting a big o2 tank and the rest of it, I used it for about 10 brews and haven't touched it for the last 10. mainly because I've been doing pretty standard 1 or 2 pack US-05 brews which don't really need it. next brews will be lagers so will probs use it again then.


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Thanks for the info guys! I'll start with the attachment considering it's so much cheaper. Damn, just recently threw out my 240v Ozito drill too thinking I'll never use it again.. just got my 18v stuff now but it's still ok

Cheers!


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## Batz

Coodgee said:


> to be honest, after getting a big o2 tank and the rest of it, I used it for about 10 brews and haven't touched it for the last 10. mainly because I've been doing pretty standard 1 or 2 pack US-05 brews which don't really need it. next brews will be lagers so will probs use it again then.



I use 02 when using US-05, I've noticed the lag time is cut by miles and it takes off like a rocket.


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Have to agree with using this. I wouldn't care what yeast I planned to pitch, it's the flavour and final product that matters (isn't this why we're doing this?) I just don't understand not using it if you have access unless "near enough is good enough" and you're fine drinking a substandard product. 



Batz said:


> I use 02 when using US-05, I've noticed the lag time is cut by miles and it takes of like a rocket.


----------



## Coodgee

Batz said:


> I use 02 when using US-05, I've noticed the lag time is cut by miles and it takes off like a rocket.



I've been following a different process with US-05 and I've found it works pretty well for me. I've been re-hydrating in ~25 degree water and then giving it half an hour on slow speed on the stir plate. I find I generally get airlock activity after about 11 hours and close to full krausen at 24 hours, which is huge improvement from the old sprinkle on top the wort like I used to do. 

What sort of times are you getting with the O2 (and what is your whole process)? 

p.s. the O2 reg is going great by the way thanks again


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## peteru

As I recently learned, O2 can be bad if you use it at the wrong time. In this instance the wrong time is at the same time as sprinkling dry US-05. You need to rehydrate dry yeast or make a starter before you add O2.


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## mtb

LC did mention that.. but what is the negative effect? Does it just mean underutilisation of the O2?


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

We don't know. We actually don't know if there was any oxygenation present at the time.

If there wasn't, that would explain the poor attenuation. If there was, I'll investigate further.


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## mtb

Ah that's right - busted oxygenator. Sounded like the most logical explanation.


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## peteru

At this point I'm not sure if it was busted - I think it may have been working, except for the LED. Maybe it was only working partially, because I saw some signs of activity. I took it to the post office and mailed it back this arvo so LC should be able to take a closer look in a few days.

However, my understanding, based on a few comments I noticed recently, is that while dry yeast is acclimatising to it's new environment, O2 can be harmful. Once the yeast is rehydrated, at the right temperature and nutrients are available, then O2 is beneficial.


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## Doctormcbrewdle

What does this mean for packaging? If a cold crashed beer is packed at 2 degrees say, and then warmed to room temp, even if purged of oxygen could still have harmful amounts inside. Is it then better practice to bottle at room temp?



Phoney said:


> It's high school science.  Colder water can hold more dissolved oxygen than warmer water, with 4C being the saturation point. It's also why zooplankton / phytoplankton density is greater in colder oceans than warm tropical oceans - thats why the latter are clearer and bluer. But I digress, that has nothing to do with beer.


----------



## Doctormcbrewdle

Also, this from John Palmer on oxygen and hot wort. It's Little wonder my brews have massive oxidation problems. 

To date, I've been breaking every single rule

1. Splash the still hot (between 30 and 95 degrees depending if I've chilled or not, which are all too hot) wort into the fermenter to get as much oxygen in as possible. Bad

2. Don't bother oxygenating any more than this, she's right. I've done hundreds of brews just like this before and they've all turned out ok. No they haven't.. 

3. Cold crash and splash the 2 degree beer into a bottling bucket, pour in the bottling prime sugar and give it a gentle stir. Bad

4. Transfer to bottles and cap right away, give a little shake to 'get things happening'. Pop them in the 28-44 degree shed to age in Darwin heat. Umm, yea, not good

5. Pop the first one in a couple days. Mmm, nice! This one's finally going to be a winner! Pop another 1 week later: wtf happened to this!!?? It's gone downhill. Again. Why!? 

I'm beginning to see a rather discerning pattern of very bad brewing practice all pointing to extremely bad oxidation


----------



## wide eyed and legless

pcqypcqy said:


> If using a correct pitch rate, as calculated using something like the brewer's friend calc (link), is oxygen required?
> 
> From what I can gather here, oxygen helps with yeast growth. From what I can gather on the calc, the pitch rates are based on what pro brewers use to minimise the amount of growth required and start the beer off right.
> 
> I'm taking a more active interest in pitch rates at the moment, and oxygen may well come down the track, but keen to get people's thoughts.
> 
> _(Apologies if I've missed discussion on this, but in the last year since I first commented on this thread, the page count has increased somewhat!)_


You are correct in thinking that, different strains of yeast has different needs, that is why the commercial breweries dose the oxygen in accordance with the the yeast strain and the viability of the yeast. Not enough isn't good, too much isn't good.


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Did my first aeration with paint stirrer yesterday. I couldn't get it hot so not not sure how anyone's getting too hot to even touch. Set on the highest drill speed was crazy so have to use a lower, more appropriate setting. It seems to do ok but I had higher hopes. It just doesn't seem lIke I'm getting that much oxygen


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## mtb

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> It just doesn't seem lIke I'm getting that much oxygen



How do you quantify that? Are you counting the particles?

Use a paint stirrer, by all means, but if you want decent saturation you can follow the piles of advice given already to use a pure o2 system.


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## Doctormcbrewdle

Just my thoughts Skeeter. Not having a go. Juuust saying 

(backs out of room quiely)


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## MHB

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Did my first aeration with paint stirrer yesterday. I couldn't get it hot so not not sure how anyone's getting too hot to even touch. Set on the highest drill speed was crazy so have to use a lower, more appropriate setting. It seems to do ok but I had higher hopes. It just doesn't seem lIke I'm getting that much oxygen


You have been saying that you are having trouble with flavour and stability of your beer.
Need to clarify, when are you aerating? Should be aerating wort at pitching temperature, just before adding yeast.
What do you mean about getting it hot? What and when.
Personally I wouldn't use a paint stirrer, you will never get enough aeration to be effective and if you are forming a vortex you will also be sucking in lots of bacteria with the air, big chance of infection.

O2 is more soluble in cold than in hot wort, I don't get what you mean your references to heat - they simply aren't making sense. Getting too much O2 into hot wort will do harm to flavour and stability.
Be a good idea to lay out exactly your steps.
If you aren't going to use pure O2, I would stick to dry yeast - for various reasons dry yeast is less dependant on dissolved O2 than liquid cultures.
Mark


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## technobabble66

As I don't have an O2 setup, which is clearly the best option, and are limited to stirring, I've found that storing vigorously twice provides really good results even on the higher OG beers. So I'd stir on pitching then again 1-3 hrs later. The idea is to compensate somewhat for the lower dissolved O2 stirring will achieve by doing it a second time an hour or so afterwards, hopefully once the yeast has "woken up" and possibly used a lot of the oxygen from the first stir. A bit similar to some of the English techniques, I hoped. 
Admittedly this is normally on yeast cakes, so hard to know how much is from the stirring technique and how much is from the high pitch rate.


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## Phoney

MHB said:


> I don't get what you mean your references to heat - they simply aren't making sense.



I read that as meaning that the power drill he was using didn't get hot to touch. 

While I agree that sucking in the surrounding air _could _inject foreign bacteria, I used a stick blender for years before investing in an O2 kit and never once had an issue.


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## Doctormcbrewdle

MHB said:


> You have been saying that you are having trouble with flavour and stability of your beer.
> Need to clarify, when are you aerating? Should be aerating wort at pitching temperature, just before adding yeast.
> What do you mean about getting it hot? What and when.
> Personally I wouldn't use a paint stirrer, you will never get enough aeration to be effective and if you are forming a vortex you will also be sucking in lots of bacteria with the air, big chance of infection.
> 
> O2 is more soluble in cold than in hot wort, I don't get what you mean your references to heat - they simply aren't making sense. Getting too much O2 into hot wort will do harm to flavour and stability.
> Be a good idea to lay out exactly your steps.
> If you aren't going to use pure O2, I would stick to dry yeast - for various reasons dry yeast is less dependant on dissolved O2 than liquid cultures.
> Mark



Hey Mark! Sorry, I should have explained a bit better. As another poster has since put it - I meant the drill or drill bit. Reason I mention that is because people earlier were saying their stuff would get too hot to touch. Though it all means little.

To clarify, I've never really aerated before (gasps) most I've ever done was a few 'swoops' with the paddle spoon while trying not to spill wort over the edge of fermenter, so this is a new step for me in my new quest to make a superior quality product.

I waited until the wort was at pitching temp before aerating. Have learned recently about even low disolved oxygen in mash (which was completely new to me! So have also boiled the strike water to expel o2 this batch. As you'll see in the photo, plenty seemed to come out before the boil. It just cycled around without breaking the surface before boiling out) so I'm aware of never splashing at temperature as it causes oxidation also.

I bought the paint stirrer first to see how it goes before shelling out for a gas setup. A few people here have said that they have o2 but haven't used it in a while because the stirrer is just as good taste-wise so I want to see what difference I note (if any?) Before going any further

Cheers


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## rude

Wondering if anyone knows if you can buy Berzomatic o2 cylinders still
I have searched Bunnings but no go might have to ring them tomorrow to comfirm
Kook has one up fot sale so just wanted to make sure you can still purchase them
cheers Rude


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## rossbaker

Another option for people looking to start with o2 - keg King now stock a full setup. I purchased a bottle, regulator, and stone/wand kit for $120 all up. I don't think I saw the bottles on their website, but they had it all in store. No deposit for the bottle so less of an upfront cost.

The reg just has psi, no flow meter, so I'm still getting used to how to use it but I'm pretty happy with the purchase.


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## rude

Cheers RB looks a good option but no keg king in the west
not sure if they post but if they do will check them out


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## mtb

rude said:


> Wondering if anyone knows if you can buy Berzomatic o2 cylinders still
> I have searched Bunnings but no go might have to ring them tomorrow to comfirm
> Kook has one up fot sale so just wanted to make sure you can still purchase them
> cheers Rude


Cheeky Peak Brewery do them - https://cheekypeakbrewery.com.au/40-1g-bernzomatic-disposable-oxygen-bottle


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## capsicum

rude said:


> Wondering if anyone knows if you can buy Berzomatic o2 cylinders still
> I have searched Bunnings but no go might have to ring them tomorrow to comfirm
> Kook has one up fot sale so just wanted to make sure you can still purchase them
> cheers Rude



Yeah mate - Brewmart in bayswater has O2 kits and the red Bernzomatic cylinders to go with them:
http://www.brewmart.com.au/brewmart...271&SZIDX=0&CCODE=17531&QOH=2&keywords=oxygen


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