# A Guide To All-grain Brewing In A Bag



## PistolPatch

This post is currently under construction. Please read this post and the one immediately before it for alternative instructions to the 'escalator mash' discussed in the BIAB booklet. The escalator mash will not be in the new guide.

*A GUIDE TO ALL-GRAIN BREWING IN A BAG*

Brewing in a Bag (BIAB) is an all-grain brewing method with many advantages. It is extremely simple requiring a low level of equipment, knowledge and space while providing a beer of equivalent quality to traditional methods. It is also highly flexible and the procedures contained in the BIAB guide can be easily modified to suit any brewers experience or resources.

The Guide has been written for beginners as an experienced brewer will automatically know which sections to skip. Even new brewers will find the step-by-step details unnecessary after a few brews and may like to modify or make redundant some procedures as their experience develops.

*The BIAB Booklet and the BIAB Master Checklist*

The practical guts, of the BIAB Guide is made up of 2 downloadable files. The BIAB Booklet, is a pictorial guide to BIAB in Adobe Reader format - .pdf. The BIAB Master Checklist, is a step by step timed guide to BIAB in Miscrosoft Excel format - .xls.

Downloading these 2 files will show you how to brew a 'black beer,' with BIAB. To date, no beer style has been identified that cannot be brewed using the method. For your first brew you may choose to brew something apart from a black beer though. NRB's All Amarillo APA or Batz's Altbier are two lighter coloured and delightful beers that are also quite forgiving to the first time brewer.

Once you have read this post, to get brewing, download the following 2 files and just follow the instructions.

PLEASE NOTE: The following 2 files have *not* been re-written as yet so *do not download them* if you already have them. They will be done in the next few days.

* View attachment BIABBooklet.pdf

** View attachment BIAB_Checklist___Black_Beer.xls


*Further Information on BIAB*

Further information on brewing in a bag can be quickly found at the following places

Post #2: BIAB FAQs

This post answers questions that are commonly asked on BIAB as well as some more advanced information. One of these questions is, 'What are some common mistakes made by first-time BIABers?' This is important reading before doing your first brew.

Post #3: BIAB Thread Summary

To save those who want even more information than contained in Post #2, this post here summarises all the information discussed on BIAB to date including this whole thread in blocks of 50 posts. Reading this plus the last few posts of this thread means that you can constantly stay up to date with the latest developments.

Post #4: BIAB Movers and Shakers

There are many people whose individual efforts resulted in BIAB becoming a brewing method that is filling many a happy brewers kegs and bottles each week. These movers and shakers are mentioned in Post #4. All of these people are also happy to help new BIAB brewers (or any brewers for that matter) on their way. Knowing these peoples names will help you in knowing the right people to answer your questions which leads to.

*The Remainder of the Thread*

Here you can ask any general questions, ask for help with your brews, offer new ideas, let others know how you are going or answer other peoples questions etc. Before asking questions though, please ensure that you have read the booklet, checklist and first four posts of the thread. This will avoid any repetition.

*BIAB Brewer Register*

jimmysuperlative suggested a register of BIAB brewers in the early days. Recently, FNQBunyip has got it off the ground. So, once you've done your first BIAB, please sign the above register and from time to time update it so we can watch your progress.

Look forward to hearing how you go,
PistolPatch

*Prior downloads = 14.
**Prior Downloads =


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## PistolPatch

This post is currently under construction.

*BIAB FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS*

The following answers are based around a BIAB brew using 5 kgs of grain, a 60 minute mash period and 60 minute boil in a 70 litre pot. These times and equipment may be varied if desired.

*What is BIAB?*

In laymans terms, BIAB can be summarised as follows. For a standard beer. The brewer brings around 35 litres of water to mash temperature (62 to 70 degrees depending on the beer) in a large pot. The pot is then lined with an extrememley fine mesh bag into which the grain is poured. This temperature is maintained for 60 minutes. At this stage, the bag is drained and removed, and the water that now tastes sweet (hence called sweet liquor) is brought to the boil and held there for 60 minutes. At various stages during the boil period, hops may be added to affect bitterness, flavour and aroma. After the boil, the resulting liquid (now called wort) is chilled rapidly to the correct temperature for the pitching of the yeast. All other stages of the brewing process should be familiar to those who have done some kit brews.

*How Does BIAB Replace the Mashing and Sparging Done in Traditional Brewing?*

In traditional brewing, mashing is the process of converting starches in the grain into sugars that can be eaten by the yeast and turned into alcohol. This mashing period goes for 60 minutes but only uses about 15 litres of water. Following this, about 20 litres of water are used to rinse (or lauter) the sugars from the grain. Two traditional methods commonly used to do this are batch-sparging or fly-sparging and these require three vessels. A Guide to Mashing and Batch Sparging  explains batch-sparging in more detail.

BIAB is what we might call a full volume method of brewing where all the water is added at the beginning so that mashing and sparging occur at the same time. A simplistic analogy is that of making an instant coffee. In traditional brewing, you add a teaspoon of coffee and a third a cup of water. Stir it and then either add the remaining water in one or more hits (as in batch-sparging) or trickle the remaining water in slowly (as in fly-sparging.) In BIAB all the water for your coffee goes in first and then you stir.

*Is Efficiency Higher or Lower with BIAB Compared to Traditional?*

For the beginner, trying to increase efficiency by a few percent is not an important goal. Good clean brewing practices are far more essential. In saying this, in the few side by side brews that have been done, BIAB has been coming out in front of batch-sparged brews by a little over 5% so efficiency is not an issue.

*How do BIAB Beers Compare with Those Brewed Traditionally?*

At time of writing, at least several thousands of litres of beer have been brewed using BIAB with many of these litres being tasted by experienced brewers. In one test, identical beer recipes were brewed side by side. One beer was batch-sparged and the other BIABed. Eight brewers were asked to triangular test the resulting beer. This means having three galsses with two of them containing the same beer and the third glass having another beer. Only two of the eight brewers picked the correct beer. Of these two, one simply guessed while the other found the BIAB beer to be slightly more astringent with slightly less body. So it is safe to say that, to date, BIAB beers are proving to be equivalent to those traditionally brewed. Time will tell if there are any limitations but if there are, you can be assured that they will be miniscule and detectable to only very advanced palates.

In developing BIAB, many possible quality problems such as efficiency, astringency, clarity, mouthfeel, maltiness and body were discussed and then investigated. None of these has proved to be an issue.

In light of the above, any brewer should have confidence in the method. Entering your beer in a competition may be an area that excites you and once again, you should feel great confidence on doing this.

*What are the Pros and Cons to Me Brewing In A Bag?*

BIAB has only been used for a short time compared to traditional brewing methods. THis may concern some brewers. I wrote some notes on the advantages of BIAB here recently whilst forummng under the influence. This should explain a few of the advantages of BIAB in more detail.

*What are some common mistakes made by first-time BIABers?*

Common mistakes that can be easily avoided are as follows

*Lack of Safety Considerations:* When removing your bag from the kettle, do not drag it over the sides. Lift it straight up. Dragging over the sides is likely to tip your kettle over which could result in serious injury. Also make sure you brew in a well-ventilated area to avoid inhalation of LPG gas. Boots and long orange concretors gloves can assist you as well as protect you.

*Thermometer Accuracy:* For any type of all-grain brewing, a thermometer that is accurate at mashing temperatures is of the utmost importance. Testing the accuracy of a thermometer at mash temperatures is difficult. If you know another brewer who brews good beer, test your thermometer in the 60 to 70 degree Celsius range with them.

*Bag Material:* It is most important to use the correct material to make your bag. Other materials can be either too fine, too coarse, weak or impart off flavours. Use the Swiss Voille material that is recommended.

*Bag Stitching:* Ensure that your bag is stitched up well with nylon thread. The bag has to hold up to 10 kilos of weight at times. A burst bag would be no fun at all. When stitching, try to make your seams on the outside of the bag (in other words, turn it inside out) so the bag is easier to clean.

*Burners:* If using a NASA burner which applies heat to a focused point of the kettle, it is important to use something like a wok stand to prevent the bag from melting. With ring burners, stirring whilst applying heat during the mash will prevent burning but the wok stand will make life far easier for you.


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## PistolPatch

This post is currently under construction.

*BIAB THREAD SUMMARY*

To save those who want even more information than contained in the BIAB FAQs, this post summarises information discussed prior to this thread being developed as well as this entire thread in blocks of 50 posts. Reading this plus the last few posts of this thread means that you can constantly stay up to date with the latest developments. Only the most important information relative to brewing BIAB or BIAB milestones are below. To see a more detailed summary, click on the links below.

*Important Points from Before this Thread Was Started*

*Major Points:* Much discussion on BIAB occurred in James Squire's All In One Brewery  thread. etc.... 

*Posts 5 to 50* (Main Summary written by PistolPatch)

*Major Points:* A dodgy thermometer can cause you grief. First eBIAB (Electric BIAB) done by Zizzle. Some great BIAB links provided by Phrak. BIAB Brewer Register idea proposed by jimmysuperlative. Finally made into a reality by FNQBunyip  Coodgee and Adamt simultaneously work on an advanced BIAB Master Checklist. Adamt and Phrak continue this major effort.

*Posts 51 to 100* (Main Summary written by BlackBock)

*Major Points:* Around ten brewers began BIABing. Taste-tests of beers found no identifiable flaws. Phrak and Adamt mades major developments to the advanced checklist. FNQBunyip took one for the team by burning a hole in his bag with his NASA burner. A cake rack or similiar should be used to kkeep the bag off the kettle base especially if using a burner with a concentrated flame. Variations of bag material and shape were attempted without success. The bag must 'line' the kettle and the 'Swiss Voille' material be used for guaranteed results. Tannin extraction is not an issue no matter how hard you squeeze the bag as temperatures are below that at which tannin extraction occurrs. Insulation of the kettle whilst mashing is unneccessary as heat can be easily applied if necessary by the burner. 'Escalator mash,' abandoned due to various problems and no advantages. James Squire and FNQBunyip trial successfully alternative methods for lifting the bag out of the kettle. To gain correct mash temp readings, ensure that the wort is agitated. Double-batching discussed and ways of lifting the resulting heavy bag were proposed. James Squire provides a link to his Bucket-alternative-to Bag.

*Posts 101 to 150* (Main Summary written by SpillsMostOfIt)

*Major Points:* More people do their first AG with BIAB. Many of these done under difficult conditions such as on stovetops or in small pots. Positive results submitted except where equipment was inadequate e.g. inaccurate thermometer or too small a bag. Adamt found the bag difficult to drain. A too fine a crush is suspected as being the cause. One brewer's bag splits highlighting the need for strong stitching with nylon thread. A 'No Sew BIAB Bag With a Drawstring,' is mentioned by FingerlickinB and hughman666 reports success with this bag. FNQBunyip's pulley set-up solves any 'heavy lifting' problems. Morrie0069 trys mashing in an esky using a bag instead of a manifold - no worries. More pleasing taste results.

*Posts 151 to 200* (Main Summary written by SpillsMostOfIt)

*Major Points:* Beers from Pilsners to Schwartzbiers have been brewed and enjoyed by this stage with no noticeable flaws. Technical discussions on efficiency and whether to raise the temperature at the end fo the mash before removing the bag occur. Linz makes a BIAB style liner for his HERMS system. PP and BRad_G brew identical beers side-by-side with one beer being batched and the other BIABed. Doughball question raised but they are not a problem with BIAB.

*Posts 201 to 250* (Main Summary written by ThirstyBoy)

*Major Points:* At this point, the thread moves into some scientific questions of mash volumes and enzyme conversion. Those interested should read the main summary or the actual posts as many of these are very well-written and quite detailed. No negatives to BIAB though found. On a less scientific note, hughman666 and jimmysiperlative give great testimonial about their BIAB experience. hughman also decides he is going to try batch-sparging but using the bag as a manifold. The side-by-side tasting results of BAtch veresus BIAB come out. Only 2 out of 8 brewers could tell the difference and one of these purely guessed. (That was me. I couldn't taste any difference so had a 1 in 3 chance of guessing correctly.) Hoops was the only one to pick a difference and found bIB to be slightly less astringent but slightly thinner than the batched beer.

*Posts 251 to 300* (Main Summary written by JimmySuperlative)

*Major Points:* More scientific questions so the same notes as above apply. Once again no negatives to BIAB found. hughman666 reports back on his move to batch-sparging. He reports no noticeable difference in taste and his figures show little difference in OG's and FG's. Wobbly however who, while not BIABing, was 'full-volume' mashing, found problems with chill haze and sweetness and decided to revert to his traditional brewing. Wobbly asks for any ideas but no one can offer any advice as no one else has found these problems to date with BIAB. This remains a mystery. Zizzle posts pics of his great electric BIAB rig. 

*Posts 301 to 350* (Main Summary  written by SpillsMostOfIt)

*Major Points:* More scientific questions so the same notes as above apply. Still no negatives to BIAB found. Finite also posts some detail on 3 of his BIAB brews. FNQBunyip tries rinsing his bag of grain after the mash with 3 litres of hot water to further increase efficeincy. The water is extra and therefore needs to be boiled off to reach correct final volume. No figures availabel so the effect of this difference is not known. 

*Posts 351 to 400* (Main Summary written by ?)

*Major Points:*


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## PistolPatch

The following post is under construction.

*BIAB MOVERS AND SHAKERS*

There are many people whose individual efforts resulted in BIAB becoming a brewing method that is filling many a happy brewers kegs and bottles each week. These, 'movers and shakers,' are a great bunch of brewers full of enthusiasm and happy to help new BIAB brewers (or any brewers for that matter) on their way. Being aware of the names below will help you in knowing the right people to answer your questions.

Here's a list of the BIAB Movers and Shakers in time order of their involvement in BIAB...

*James Squire:* JS triggered the thinking on BIAB by starting the following thread All In One Brewery etc


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## Fingerlickin_B

Ive got a Boddingtons Pub Ale clone going. 

Boddingtons Pub Ale Clone 11.5 Litre Batch

1360g Joe White Munich
14g Black Patent Malt

12.5g Fuggles @ 60 mins
11.5g Bramling Cross @ 30 mins
7.5g EK Goldings @ 15 mins
42.5g Cane (white table) Sugar @ 15 mins

Pitched 11g Windsor Ale dry yeast. 

Itll be going straight into a 9L keg from primary, room temp for a week, chilled and carbed. 

Will advise on the result when drinking :chug: 

Oh, and thanks to Steve on here for the recipe  

PZ.


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## apd

PistolPatch said:


> I'm a little embarrassed to see that the .pdf file was 588kb. I thought it was 188kb. I better send a donation to AHB! Is there any solution to this? (Not sending the donation - reducing the file size?)



Hey PP,
You have a few photos in the file so that will bump up the file size. You could optimise the photos in something like Photoshop or ImageReady before importing them into the PDF - they have Save For Web functionality that outputs the files a lot smaller but without much difference in quality to on screen viewing. This means they won't print as nicely but that may be a sacrifice you're willing to make.

If you don't have Photoshop or ImageReady, send the files to me and I'll fix them up.

apd


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## FNQ Bunyip

Great work Pistol, I'm not AG yet but slowly been building up to it and have been setting up a 3 pot single tier system and will still go that way but this looks like it could be a good intrim ... If I can overcome the freight on grain I will be away.. Brewing with grain up here will be a chalange to keep grain fresh and not mouldy...

Thanks for the time you have obviously spent putting this all together.

Cheers :beer:


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## Phrak

As a bit of a bump to keep this topic in the recent section, I don't think we've as yet cross-posted a link to the original discussion thread which is still very-much alive.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=11074

Some of the more interesting posts are direct-linked below. I'm sure there's more, so feel free to add your own linky's here 
PP's original guide, plus some extra pics

Phrak & MilletMan - To squeeze or not to squeeze

Zizzle - Stove-top pictures

AndrewQLD - mash pH info

PP - Why a hopsock is not an alternative

AdamT (plus the next three replies) - Mash pH concentration calculations Plus Post #189

PP - Summary of the main topics

Non-Thread links:
Justin's Advice and Recommendations for those starting out in all grain home brewing
Jayse's "A Homebrewers Guide to the Galaxy"

Once again Pat, keep up the awesome work! :beer: 
Tim.


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## James Squire

Top work 'Fairy Nuff!'   

Keep up the good work Pat. You are a massive part of AHB, we love you man!

Cheers,

JS - just keepin' things rollin'!


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## poppa joe

My Guide Won't download.....
AAAARRRRGGGHHH.
PJ


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## Ross

Great effort as always Pat :super: 

Fantastic to see your efforts resulting in some great beers & making the path to AG so much easier for those with limited resources - you're a credit to the forum... :beer: 

Cheers Ross


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## Adamt

After just spending $110 on a nasa burner and gas, and about to spend $100 on a stockpot, it might take a while for me to get an esky mash tun going, so I'm gonna BIAB! Will try it with an APA in a couple of weeks and let you know how it goes!


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## PistolPatch

Poppa, the easisest way to save it is to right click on the file with your mouse button and then press, 'Save Target As.' PM me if that doesn't work. Hope your brews are going well.

Thanks apd. I used Microsoft Picture Editor to get the pics down to about 35kb. Do you reckon go even smaller? I also just thought of some other ways on how to allow people to get the latest updates of the guide without taxing AHB's bandwidth but will have to post that later (running out of time).

Phrak is going to have a look at the time automation thing in the spreadsheets. And more thanks to Phrak for going to all the trouble in his post above linking some of the highlights of James' thread and others. Will be whacking a few of those in the Appendix for sure. Must have taken quite some time that.

Am now running late for work which is a good thing as I have no idea how to respond to the extremeley kind messages received above and in other places/forms. These are truly appreciated. Rather than me carrying on here I think I better send you guys a PM 

Many thanks,
PP

(FNQ - will PM you re grain.)


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## Adamt

Will be working on getting IBU calculations into the Spreadsheet tonight, and possibly OG calculations too. Will have to tweak the sheet a bit and I'll post it when its finished, hopefully midnightish tonight as im working til 10!

-Adam


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## Zizzle

Bottled my first AG, the Bag Job, just now after 1.5 weeks in primary.

Tasted pretty good. Can't wait.

Good on ya Pat!


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## poppa joe

PP ....MHB>>>>
Got it....NOW i need a BIGGER hard drive...
PJ


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## apd

PP,

35KB could be improved on. They might be able to be reduced to 5 - 10KB.


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## Fingerlickin_B

Ran my brew through ProMash...looks like it'll be fairly light on the alcohol side :blink: 

Noticed some reasonably obvious fermentation action today (day four), so it seems there is still something in there for the yeast to chew on and sh*t out alc :lol: 

This'll probably be a dud of a beer though...but only because of the small grain bill and tight mash sock. 

Grabbed some mesh today for a "pot-in-pot" setup next time and now being equipped with software to help me calculate values I'm sure it'll be much better. 

Still stinging to try this one anyway :chug: 

PZ.


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## PistolPatch

Didn't realise I could go that small apd! I'll have a bash at reducing them further but won't have a chance to do so for at least a week. Thanks again.

I think I better only on occassion revise the guide otherwise the same people will be downloading it every time a change is made. Those who do want to stay up to date can send me an email and I'll send the files to you as they change. This should save some AHB bandwidth.

Maybe I should use Post #4 to list what updates have been made but are currently only available via email?

Can't wait to see what magic Adam comes up with tonight - he has some very useful talents for us! Be great to see how an APA goes as well.

Whacked your brew into Post #2 Finger this morning. You never know mate it might taste great. The small sock would have been a bit of a mare!

I haven't put Zizzle's beer into Post#2 as it was the black beer and therefore already trialled. Good on you Zizzle - trust we'll hear how it tastes in 3 weeks. You, Poppa and Finger are great the way you are having a bash with the smaller pots.

Oh, and whoever was responsible for airlocking this :beerbang:


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## jimmysuperlative

Not that I'm right into stats and data ...but, I'm thinking now I'd love to know how many brewers are trying/or going to try the BIAB ?

...It might be interesting to see how far the net is cast ...out of 2800 members that is??!!!  

...poll ? ...list ? ...post here ? :blink: 


Is there a way of leaving just one (individuals) post (like this one) open for any AHB member to edit ...so it can be added to?

Or easier to cut and paste existing list into new post and add your name?

Any merit? Just to see how many are out there?

PistolPatch, Fingerlickin_B, Zizzle, poppa joe, AndrewQLD Pilsner, James Squire, etc ....?


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## Coodgee

PP, I've taken your spreadsheet and automated some of the calcs.

1. I've made the % of grain calc automatically based on the values entered into the kg section.
2. added a bitterness (IBU) calculator to the Hop list (had to change the formatting around a bit).
3. Created a simple % alc calculator based on FG and SG.
4. Efficency diff calculator.
5. added a total grist volume calculator


see what you think. 

View attachment BIAB_Master_Ale_Checklist.xls


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## Adamt

YARRRRRRRGhhh just spent 30minutes doing EXACTLY the same things. *bangs head on wall*

Mine looks a little different has an OG, FG calculator in it, needs grain potential, grain mass, brew volume, efficiency to calculate.

IBUs are calculated using Tinseth's method, which seems quite different (lower) than Beersmith/Promash.

Anything in red is calculated by the spreadsheet and shouldnt be edited!

If I was smart I would've checked the thread before making my own, sorry Coodgee! 

View attachment BIAB_Checklist_vAdam.xls


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## PistolPatch

Unbeleivable! Have sent both Adam and Coodgee a PM. Wouldn't be worried about both of you having a bash as there'll be merits to both that can be combined into a final. On way out the door but here's a few thoughts on testing their skills further...

Percentages are always the common ground in recipes, so how difficult would it be to make it so that just percentages of grain and ABV were put in? i.e. the kgs were calculated automatically?

Could the same be done with the hops easily? i.e. you just put in the IBUs you want and the AA rating of your hops and then the spreadsheet calculates the grams.

This doesn't mean that what has been done so far should be deleted as it is as important as the above. Having two methods would be brilliant though I reckon. (One section could just be out of the print area and jumped to in the cases where it is needed).

I think this would be great to allow quick adjustments for different efficiencies etc. Or, another example, say in the case of full-strentth versus mid-strenght black beer, the brewer could simply whack in what ABV they wanted.

Hopefully there'll be some discussion on why the bittereness levels in Adam's sheet don't match BeerSmith and an easy adjustment can be made if necessary too.

One final thought, I can move the far right column, "Notes,' to the left to allow a little more room if that helps.

Have to go right now but I'm totally impressed. You guys have made it easier for me to use than BeerSmith already!!!


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## PistolPatch

Some Quick News: Adam is going to have a bash at the time function in the spreadsheet tonight so relax Tim!* The Kilcenny Clone is now ready. Will filter and keg that tomorrow or Saturday and then take it and the 2 black beers to Ross's on Sunday so some experienced brewers can give some feedback.

Jimmy: I was trying to work out the same thing from the All In one thread but it got too hard! I could pretty easily whack a list of brewers who have used the method into say, Post#4** as long as they let me know. I think it would be a great idea if people had a way of getting a second opinion on BIAB.

The brewers' list will take a while to grow though as probably only a few people each week on AHB move into AG. Of these people, many will be trained/educated in or feel more comfortable with traditional methods so BIAB may be of no interest.

Hopefully through the pioneers here, we might find that most styles work with the method and build up a bit of a track record. If so, I'm sure many others will find it far easier to try all-grain and also really enjoy the method. I probably should put a list of benefits into the guide but will wait until we have a few more successful brews under our belt. I certainly find a BIAB brew very easy and relaxing.

I also reckon that the computer geniuses here are going to turn that spreadsheet into a very valuable tool.

Cheers,
Pat

* If no one here has any ideas on the IBU variation Adam got, I'll see if I can find anything out on Sunday.
** Might make Post#4 a sort of a general news/update post.


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## Adamt

I'm having to employ a little bit of Visual Basic to get the reverse calculations done on the hop mass, percentages and etc. and I'll look at the timing stuff a bit later on!


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## Coodgee

Adam what constant are you using to calculate IBUs? If you are using 1.34 that is for ounces and quarts. the metric constant is 10.


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## Zizzle

Quick request guys, can you please check that the spreadsheet also works in OpenOffice?

Not all of us fork money over to the evil empire. 

Last I heard OOo does have some VBA support, but dunno how good it is.


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## Adamt

The formula I used was bottom formula on Rooftop Brew IBU Calculator.

Supposedly it is more accurate than other methods for full volume wort boils.

I'll test it on OO on my dad's pc later on tonight when some more of the VB is down.

-Adam


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## Coodgee

this could turn into an open source brewing software tool 

though excel would be a poor solution for a "like-a-bought-one" application. 

what excel are you using adamT?

if you want to go with VB we/you/I might as well do it all on a form.


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## Adamt

Yeah, this is completely going off the BIAB topic, but oh well lol.

I was actually thinking today of making an actual AHB Recipe Calculator but all the programming experience i have is with ANSI C, Fortran, Java, IRC, and a tiny bit of VB (which im picking up as i go), with nothing specifically related to spiffy, user-friendly GUIs.

I'm almost finished tweaking with the spreadsheet, once i finalise the code and locked cells it will serve as a fairly basic calculator for gravity, IBU and batch volume which I might post in another non-BIAB-exclusive thread; and then we can get back to the task at hand, brewing in a bag!


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## Coodgee

I'm just an "excel guru" which equals VB hack. I program by way of google  some one has always had the same problem and asked about it.


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## Fingerlickin_B

Adamt said:


> I'm having to employ a little bit of Visual Basic to get the reverse calculations done on the hop mass, percentages and etc. and I'll look at the timing stuff a bit later on!


And all these blokes on here giving "VB" sh*t :lol: 

Pat, as for my predictions of a very weak beer: I ran a complete half run with regards to grain, hops everything of a recipe I was given and it's supposed to be kind of "weak" anyway, but it seems if all goes well the alcohol content will be down ever so slightly and the bitterness up, also ever so slightly...goddam ProMash, where have you been all my life? 

Ragged on ProMash the other night, loving it now :lol: h34r:  

PZ.


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## Adamt

Righto, I have split the spreadsheet into two sheets in the same file and it is attached.

The first sheet is now solely a recipe calculator, the following variables can be adjusted and the rest will be calculated:

-Grain mass (need potential)
-Hop mass
-Hop IBU

It will also calculate expected OG, expected FG (this is an absolute bullshitted guess not based on grain yield or anything) and required boil/brew volumes, efficiencies and a couple of other things. Couldn't be bothered implementing specified grain percentages, will take too long to code.

I realise this is completely redundant if you have any sort of brewing software, but what the heck!

Sheet 2 contains the timetable for which the brew day can be adjusted, and expected times for certain parts of the brew day can be added and subsequent times will be adjusted.

If I get really bored over the summer I might play around and make some decent user-friendly software.

..

Now, back to the BIAB! 

View attachment BIAB_Checklist_vAdam2.xls


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## Coodgee

we should pool our resources guys. open source AHB brewing software is the start of something big.

we devide it up into littel bits and come together to produce the ultimute brewing software. as far as software goes it's a piece of piss. it's just a glorified simple calculator. discussion at the ahb meetup at carbrook to ensue, after all it is pistol peet's master plan.


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## Coodgee

p.s. open source is for stinking hippies and honest folk.


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## Adamt

Who's paying me for my airfares? I'm a poor uni student!


----------



## Phrak

OK brewers, I've had a bit of a play around with the spreadsheet over night, and have attached my copy.

Major changes:
* Added Colours and formatting. PINK = Mandatory field, YELLOW = Optional Field
* Split the sheet into 2 more sections
* Added Yeast attenuation calcs
* Based Expected FG on expected attenuation
* Continued Adam's Planned Time calculations down the rest of the column, and;
* Changed the minutes column to be the approx time _each step_ will take, and;


Minor Changes
* Linked the Actual OG & FG to those recorded in the Fermentation Schedule sheet
* Added unit formatting to Grain & Hop Section totals
* Added Comments to columns to understand how to use them 

View attachment BIAB_Checklist_v3_Tim.xls


----------



## PistolPatch

Crikey! How good is that? Once again, in a rush...

I should have mentioned before that Phrak and I have had several conversations, some up to 40 minutes - lol, in the last week as to how people can contribute to the spreadsheet but Coodgee and Adam took us completely by surprise!

My intention was to have Phrak take on this side of things - co-ordinate contributions etc. Not only is he extremely experienced in this field but he is available on the phone at the same lunatic hours as myself so ideas I have or receive from others can be easily passed on. He also already knows any ideas I have to date.

Phrak had to work (or pretend to) all last night so took the opportunity to add a fair whack to Adam's version. Some sections still have to be finalised but it's looking pretty damn good I reckon.

I'll leave it to Phrak now to say what else needs to be done and how to manage contributions. As mentioned, I'll pass on your ideas to him. This will have the added bonus of preventing me writing my usual too long a posts here which I think is best for everyone 

I'm sure that you guys will come up with a spreadsheet that will suit other all-grain brewing methods which will be worthy of a whole new thread as well. I'll pass on any ideas I have on this too.

Thanks so much to you computer wizards. I'll now get back to working on the guide instead of posting here!

A thousand beers to you :beerbang:


----------



## AndrewQLD

Phrak said:


> OK brewers, I've had a bit of a play around with the spreadsheet over night, and have attached my copy.
> 
> Major changes:
> * Added Colours and formatting. PINK = Mandatory field, YELLOW = Optional Field
> * Split the sheet into 2 more sections
> * Added Yeast attenuation calcs
> * Based Expected FG on expected attenuation
> * Continued Adam's Planned Time calculations down the rest of the column, and;
> * Changed the minutes column to be the approx time _each step_ will take, and;
> 
> 
> Minor Changes
> * Linked the Actual OG & FG to those recorded in the Fermentation Schedule sheet
> * Added unit formatting to Grain & Hop Section totals
> * Added Comments to columns to understand how to use them




Nice and neat guys, excellent work.
Crickey a new AG brewing method with its own dedicated software. How easy can it get for first time AGers  

Well done all involved


----------



## Adamt

Oooooooooooooooh! Pretty colours! I've added a priming calculator and now my programming seems to be flowing a bit better which means I could probably reduce the code in the recipe sheet by a half, but as they say in the classics; stiff shit!

I should really stop doing this and do some actual work :S 

View attachment BIAB_Checklist_v4.xls


----------



## Screwtop

Adamt said:


> Oooooooooooooooh! Pretty colours! I've added a priming calculator and now my programming seems to be flowing a bit better which means I could probably reduce the code in the recipe sheet by a half, but as they say in the classics; stiff shit!
> 
> I should really stop doing this and do some actual work :S




Hows about prettying it up in an Access App? Great for presentation, you VB guys could write any code required for use behind the forms. You have the spreadsheets already to use as your tables.


----------



## Coodgee

The only problem with MS access is that not many people own it. It only comes with Office professional. Probably not too many brewers forked out for the pro version. but I might be wrong.


----------



## Adamt

I think it'd be much easier to keep it in Excel until we can get around to writing a standalone program.


----------



## Zizzle

I can help with a standalone app.

I would recommend Python. Mozilla XUL is probably also a candidate. Java would be the fallback.

Open source stuff means low barrier to entry for new contributors, it's only a download away, and cross platform (OSX and Linux are my main platforms, but the unwashed masses run 'doze).

I've had success with cross platform GUIs in python before. Tkinter comes with the Windoze python dist, and maybe OSX too.


----------



## PistolPatch

Very, very nice Adam!

Phrak had to work a double-shift but is going to check out your latest bit of work asap. From what I can see, I think he'll be pretty happy.

Did you or Coodgee come up with an answer to the IBUs discrepancy? I'm thinking it's probably best to have it approximating what you get in Beersmith or Promash. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Top work Adam and many thanks for neglecting your other duties,

Cheers
Pat

P.S. Wish I could understand this computer talk. When you said earlier, "I'm having to employ a little bit of Visual Basic to get the reverse calculations done on the hop mass, percentages and etc. and I'll look at the timing stuff a bit later on!" I thought this meant that you'd had too many beers at the pub and were slowly trying to find your way home but could hardly see.


----------



## Phrak

Hey guys, my deepest apologies, but I'm going to have to make this a quick visit. Too much to do before father's day tomorrow! 

Adam, Thanks for the updates! Looks great! Question for you though - I still am trying to figure out where you're getting some of your 'constants' for the calculations from.
For example, on the Carbonation page in cell B12, you've got "0.92+1.48" to calculate the CO2 volumes... I can guess that the 0.92 is his 'Saturated CO2' number, but what's the '1.48'? Likewise for the 'Weight to be used' calc below it. Also the constants for the Saturated CO2 calc?

I've attached my latest copy (based on the changes to Adam's last version).

Here's the change log:

*Added:*
* Pick-list for natural carbonation method.	
* Cell for CO2 Pressure if 'Forced'	
* Carb volumes sheet, using BJCP Styles
* Uniform page and cell formatting:
*** White cells do (or should) not need to be touched. i.e. They're auto-calcs or info only.
*** Pink cells REQUIRE information.
*** Yellow cells OPTIONAL infromation.
*** Grey cells are headings or titles.
* Added/removed cell borders and stuff to make print versions look nicer.

*To Do:* 
* Make Boil vol calc based on brew vol	
* make Expected OG Calc based on grain yeild	
* Ferment. Sched. Day/date calcs cleanup - Would like some feedback here on how to style this better.
* Packaging/Carbonation, "Apparent Attenuation %" - Adam, What's this for mate?
* Saturated CO2 volumes - Audit formula, Adam?
* CO2 Volumes Required for style - Pick from list based on "CarbStyles" Sheet.
* Weight to be used (g) - Based on Dex/Malt picklist + Audit formula. I get a different figure using beersmith.
* CO2 Pressure if 'Forced' calculations


Please feel free to reply here or PM me if you know there's calcs that aren't working or have any suggestions for the sheet. 
The only concern I've got, is that I want this spreadsheet to stay on-topic for the AG BIAB thread, I don't really want it (this version, at least) to turn into yet another piece of brewing software. Maybe the horse has already bolted (& I know I kinda opened the gate for it with some of my additions), but maybe we might have to try and reign the 'features' it in a bit.

Anyway, I have to fly. Keep up the great work everyone! :super: 
Tim. 

View attachment BIAB_Checklist_v5.xls


----------



## Adamt

Won't have much time to do anything today, however I have fixed the natural carbonation equations; the code imploded when you changed the cells around on the carb sheet 

The "Apparent Attenuation" was described where I found the priming calculation. It seems it is the yield, or amount of the priming sugar/malt that carbonates; supposedly ~100% for sugars, ~75% for dry malt. If I get around to it, I'll automate it to change value depending on the priming sugar/malt chosen.

The different carbonation figure may be due to that "Apparent Attenuation" figure not being completely accurate. Quite possibly its closer to 90-95% which gets it much closer to Beersmith - not sure how Beersmith calculates carbonation.

I'll possibly change the IBU code tomorrow at work to Rager's hop calculations. Beersmith uses Rager's formulae by default, however after doing a few manual calculations it seems the IBU values I've calculated are still not as high as Beersmith, however are "closer" than the currently implemented method. 

Rager's Formula is based completely on theory, so you'd expect it to give higher values than Tinseth's completely empirical formula. Tinseth hop values on Beersmith seem to be higher than my Tinseth values too, maybe Beersmith is just fudging the values higher? lol.

I'll upload the changes tomorrow night!

-Adam


----------



## PistolPatch

*Thread Update* 

Ocassionally I will post a Thread Update to inform others when any of the first four posts have been edited. This morning I have re-written the first 4 posts to some degree. You'll see that Post #4 has turned into a summary of the most recent developments.

Those reading the thread, please take special note of my final comments under, 'Credits,' in Post #1. Whilst they would never expect it, taking a minute to post or PM a message of appreciation to the guys who are working so hard on the spreadsheet can make a huge difference. No feedback can become frustrating while receiving feedback inspires further creativity and contribution.

Looks like BIAB has made an impact at Coopers already. Post #1 of this thread shows the original Coopers homebrewing billboard. Post #13 shows the changes they have been forced to make since. (My goodness - I have to drink with these loonys all day today!)

Happy Father's Day to POhrak and the other Dads!

Cheers
Pat


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

As requested by Pat, this post will be mirrored in both appropriate threads  

My BIAB Boddingtons clone copped the taste test this arvo...

Yep, efficiency was obviously down (due the using a small bag), but all seems good. 

I'm very happy with the method and its results...next one with a correctly sized bag should make a great beer!

Thanks to all those involved...my first AG may be a light one, but still quite drinkable. 

Recipe seems good and not at fault when it comes to the watery beer...I blame the small bag.........don't be put off by my results people...this method will make good beer :super: 

PZ.


----------



## Phrak

Hey guys, here's my latest update, based on the last version.

Here's the change log:

*Added:*
* Refined Pick-list for natural carbonation methods.
* Pick-list for Carbonation Calcs by style - Pick from our BJCP style list.
* Carbonation weight to be used (g) - Based on Dex/Malt picklist 
* Refined a few cell borders & Print Areas for clarity.
* Removed Adam's VBScript calcs from the Priming sheet. Calcs now done in the cells.
* Refined "Apparent Attenuation" to be "Priming Method Attenuation", and auto-calcd.
* Added Coodgee's Efficiency Difference calcs back in.

*To Do:* 
* Make Boil vol calc based on brew vol minus expected losses.
* Include expected losses cells.
* Make Expected OG Calc based on grain yeild.
* Ferment. Sched. Day/date calcs cleanup - Would like some feedback here on how to style this better.
* CO2 Pressure if 'Forced' calculations.
* Ability to Scale grainbill to different batch sizes.
* Finalise the IBU calc method once and for all.
* Include reverse IBU calcs (Enter IBU you want and the AA% of your hops to get the weight needed).


Please feel free to reply here or PM me if you know there's calcs that aren't working or have any suggestions for the sheet. 

As I said before, let's try and keep this spreadsheet on-topic for the AG BIAB thread. We're doing really well so far! :super: :super: 

Oh, and also - I'm off on holidays for the next two weeks (hooray!) so please don't be offended if I seem to be ignoring you.  

Anyway, I'm being summonsed to bed now. Have a great couple of weeks everyone!

Cheers,
Tim. 

View attachment BIAB_Checklist_v6.xls


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

I'll be useing this checklist this week. 
Thanks Phrak,Adam & Coodgee for all the work that you guys have put in.. We here at AHB are very lucky. 
Cheers :beer:


----------



## PistolPatch

I've been bowled over by the flu so haven't had a chance to have a good look over Adam and Phrak's latest handiwork. Sorry guys. Will do so asap. (Have a great holiday Phrak :beer: )

FNQ and Adam are having a bash at the bag this weekend so good luck guys :beer: If you have any worries during the process, give me a ring.

Phrak's shown me how to link directly to a post so if you have a BIAB taste test, just post it here and I'll get James to link it in the All In One thread so there'll be no need to post it twice.

Finger and Zizzle have both tasted their beers and seem very happy with the result even though both had to brew with very limited equipment. Good on you guys.

I'll post update the beginning of this thread and post my latest taste test when I'm feeling like drinking again 

Will also have a crack at putting the black beer into the new checklist format asap.

Cheers
Pat


----------



## PistolPatch

*Phrak and Adam - You've Blown Me Away!* 

As you know, Ive been crook (still am) and this arvo has been the first time Ive felt up to having a detailed look at the spreadsheet.

Im actually in shock. The amount of work that you guys have put into this has truly blown me away. As FNQBunyip said, AHB is bloody lucky to have you here. God knows how many hours youve put in. I know you both pulled a few all-nighters on this early in the piece but how many more have you done?

Ive jotted a few minor suggestions/corrections below and even this minor stuff took considerable time so I cant comprehend what you've achieved especially just by communicating through this thread. I think I have an idea on how to improve this side of things for you (later.)

Anyway, until Phrak gets back, has anyone else got any more suggestions/improvements? Adam, can you fix/implement any of the following without taking up too much more of your time?

*SPREADSHEET SUGGESTIONS/IMPROVEMENTS* 

*Upon Opening* 

Macros are disabled because the security level is set to High and a digitally signed Trusted Certificate is not attached.

Solution: Go, Tools-Options-Security-Macro Security and then set it to Medium.

*Overview and Recipe SheetCorrections* 

1. Cell F19 needs formula changed to =SUM(F11:F18)
2. Cell I19 needs formula changed to =SUM(I11:I19)
3. Weve lost the info contained in Columns I & J 1-14 of original spreadsheet. This info is fairly important so we need to whack it back in somehow. Ill have a think on this.
4. Preliminary Notes, Errors/Adjustments. and Notes for Next Time, also lost. Once again. Ill have a think on this.

*Overview and Recipe SheetSuggestions* 

5. Now that you guys have automated so many of the time fields, I think my idea of having A1 (Planned Day) A4 (Planned Start) and B 4 (Planned End) is no longer necessary - it just complicates things. If we get rid of these, a whole lot of other stuff will be made easier as well. We really only need 2 fields - Date and Time (the date the brew was cooked and the time started).

*Cooking Sheet - Suggestions* 

To make it more visually appealing/simple

6. Get rid of Rows 1-11. (Will have to hide Cells B4 and B5)
7. Get rid of quotation boxes. I reckon people should be able to read the BIAB .pdf for instructions on how to use these columns.
8. Clean up cells like E15 where a line can be seen i.e. E15 has not been merged with F15. This problem occurs when rows are inserted. This is very picky, I know, but why doesnt Excel copy the row exactly? Can this be fixed?

*Other* 

9. Assuming suggestion 4 above is accepted then automate Cells B13-18.
10. Get rid of Row 95 (probably is linked to formulas though so maybe just hide it?)
11. Note Details, needs to be moved up and the cells merged so people can type in directly.
12. Maybe have a button on the Overview & Recipe Sheet that people can click to print the Cooking Sheet? That would be pretty cool! This and a Summary Sheet are probably the only two important sheets to be able to print.

*The Last 3 Sheets* 

My goodness! How much work has gone into these? SERIOUSLY, this is a massive amount of work. I cant possibly suggest anything at the moment as it will take me a few days just to see what youve done and how youve done it. From what I can see briefly, its actually probably way beyond my level of expertise/knowledge anyway.

Truly amazed,
Pat


----------



## jimmysuperlative

PistolPatch said:


> *Phrak and Adam - You've Blown Me Away!*




Here too ...you Blokes are amazing! Great stuff!!! :super: :beerbang:


----------



## PistolPatch

Have just posted a warning at the top of Post #3 as FNQ was using a NASA burner to BIAB and ended up with a hole burned in his bag. Agh! So, use something like a cake stand to keep the bag off the bottom of the kettle. FNQ has now had to spend the day drinking stout by his pool!

Jimmysuperlative had a better run at it. See here He'll post a few more details and a taste test down the track. Donya Jimmy!

Have had a chat to Adamt (his birthday's tomorrow :beer: ) and I'll spend some time on the spreadsheet in the next few weeks just on the layout - with his guidance so I don't stuff anything up!

*Kilcenny Clone Taste Test*

I first wrote a review on this here I've been delayed posting more on this until now due to the flu.

This beer is only 3% yet has twenty times the flavour of ordinary commercial full-strength brews. You can't taste those beers at all if taken after this Kilcenny. (Then again, you can't taste the Kilcenny after an APA as we discovered on Father's Day!)

I do like this beer a lot and am going to move it into the, 'Successful BIAB Beer,' category. Because it is such a quick brewer and is not too bitter, I think I'll use it for neighbours etc who are used to drinking commercial lagers - it has a lot of flavour but not too much for these guys. For me, it's great due to the 3% bit. Certainly a great step up from the light beer I usually drink after working all day in the heat.

I have no expertise in describing the taste of beers so I'll see if I can post a bottle or two out to some of the guys that can do this. I'll also get some non-brewers to have a taste and see what they think. Once done, I'll edit this post accordingly.

Cheers
Pat


----------



## Adamt

There it is! I'm an all-grain brewer! Brewed a kind of English Pale Ale.

Here's a rundown of the day, and the major problems I encountered!

-Fired up kettle to heat to strike temperature, PROBLEM: It was windy as hell, firing up the nasa isn't easy in the wind, even with the pot on top 

-Flame off, put bag on, fitted my awesome 99c supermarket calico bag, fitted my camping mat insulation, added grain and stirred. PROBLEM: The water did not move freely around between the inside of the bag and the outside (see picture). Either the bag needed to stretch out to line the pot more, or a looser mesh bag is required! This lead to water on the outside of the bag being 72C, and the actual mash hovering between 64-67 after addition of boiling water to adjust.





-PROBLEM: We had one of those 5L DAB kegs to drink, we opened it at this point :S Impaired judgement starts here.

-Fired up the burner again after about 30 mins to reheat. PROBLEM: Do not leave camping mats wrapped around a pot with the burner on! Either by coincidence or whatever, the mat fell down, my mate was silly enough to try and pull it up and ended up with blue camping mat burnt into his thumb, hilarious! (Forgot to get a picture before he got it all off, I was laughing too hard)

-After mash, the bag was lifted. PROBLEM: Stuck sparge. No more than a few drips left the bottom of the bag. Not good! Placed the bag in another pot to "drain". Squeezing did bugger all :/ So, I sanitized a jug to use as a scoop, a bucket and a colander. Scooped wet grain from bag, dumped in colander, liquid! SWEET LIQUID! That only took a good 15 minutes and by then the concrete patio was stained with wet spent grain. The grain bag went in the bin!

-Had about 30 litres in the pot during the mash, after the crappy-bag drama there was about 26L in the pot.

-Boil went fine, 15 minutes to get a boil. Hop additions went fine, at the hour, flame off, hops out, lid on, no chill! About 20L left in the pot, will check for sure when i rack. 


CONCERNS: 

-We used almost a whole pack of long matches because of the freeking wind.

-How can I tell if I've extracted tannins from the grain? I pushed the grain down slightly in the colander to extract more liquor. Checked it this morning, smells sweet like wort (wow, good observation here).

-Will be checking SG today but I'd think my efficiency is down, though I ended up with less wort than I thought I'd get.



My mate had an idea for a grain bag.... A burley sack! Sorry Pat, I really dont like the thought of sewing curtain material 

Will post back with tasting in a few weeks!


----------



## PistolPatch

What a crack up Adam!

Oh I do love it when people post honestly! Not only a good laugh but a good education as well.

Can I offer some suggestions - lol?

Good on you for testing out the calico bag idea. When you said you were going to use that I should have thought that it wouldn't be big enough - sorry mate. You need something large enough that *lines your kettle* completely. Anything else is gong to cause you a lot of problems. So let's forget the pillow slip idea as well.



> Sorry Pat, I really dont like the thought of sewing curtain material



Mate there must be one girl you know who can sew. If not get friendly with their mothers. Alternatively, Spotlight will make the bag for you given two weeks or take it to a tailor who would do it while you wait. The Swiss Voile material works beautifully so I'd definitely get a proper bag sewn up. The last thing you want is hassles on your first AG though it sounds as though you had a great time anyway!!!



> fitted my camping mat insulation



Forget the insulation. It is so unimportant. With the lid on my kettle, I get bugger all temperature drop. Surprisingly it's about the same as I got in my esky - weird, eh? The first 20 minutes is where most conversion takes place. Insulation at this stage is just as likely to work against you as for you. So, no insulation and just whack the flame on once or twice if the temp falls to 2 degrees less than your desired temp.

I'm doing the escalator mash this weekend and I can't see any reason why it won't work. This will elliminate the need for strike calculations though on full volume brewing you're only talking about a 1 to 1.5 degree difference between strike and mash temp anyway.



> How can I tell if I've extracted tannins from the grain?



You won't have - end of story. So don't worry about that mate.

I think you may end up with a low efficiency due to the tight calico bag though. Even if it does end up being a low alcohol beer, it will still taste great.

..........

I wrote the above four hours ago and then Zizzle dropped in with his gorgeous girlfriend before I could finish the post. They have only just left and I'm now too depressed to finish the post - she has no older sisters!

Life, and brewing your first AG, can sometimes be just too cruel.

 

Pat


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

PistolPatch said:


> They have only just left and I'm now too depressed to finish the post - she has no older sisters!



GOLD!!!! :lol:


----------



## Adamt

*sigh* my "mate" was supposed to bring me his hydrometer so I could check the SG, but anyway, got some un-yeasted wort waiting for the hydrometer tomorrow.

Doesnt really smell that light on for sugars, but I've only got 19L 

Just got home after pitching 6 hours ago, krausen ho, already!

As good old Big Kev would say, "IM EXCITED!"


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

The calico may noty have worked out the first time, like a new tea towel wont dry the dishes till its been washed a couple of times. Just a thought..

You can't go past the Swiss Vollie though.. Come on Adam there must be someone around that can sew up a bag for you.. My 11 yo daughter did mine.. (After a bit of bargaining ).. 

another slight set back this weekend.. so next week....

will have to go the the big smoke (Cairns) this week as I am now out of gas... (CO2)

Adam: what pot have you got ? did you have to raise it above the nasa stand to get a good burn? .. The wind dose play havoc with them... 

:beer:


----------



## Adamt

The pot is a 50L aluminium. I've got the nasa from Ray's. The pot actually sits on top of where the wind shield, possibly not the best place for efficient heating, but still got a boil in 15 minutes. The real problem is getting a low enough gas flow to not blow out the match lol. I'm buying a kitchen lighter.


----------



## PistolPatch

Adam, I should have also said congratulations on your first AG mate! The best bit was that you obviously had a lot of fun. How'd you go with your SG reading? Did it turn out right?

Like FNQ, my brewing got hijacked this weekend. Lucky this grain is vacuum-sealed - I've been trying to brew for a month now! If I knock off early tomorrow I'll do the escaltor mash then.


----------



## Adamt

Well, my trusty mother cleaned up after me, well not really; she threw out my unpitched wort sample to test :angry: 

The morning after pitching it was bubbling and at 1.030, so I guess it wouldn't have been much higher than 1.035? MIDSTRENGTH! ARGH!

Down to 1.010 now, smells/tastes caramelly, maybe the mash temp was buggered, most of the caramalt converted but not much of the pale/other malts, resulting in a higher % of caramalt in the beer than expected? It's gonna be quite bitter too for the midstrength, 38 theoretical IBUs. Ahhh well.

I'm buying the voile! Might be a month til I brew again though 

Please, slap me next time I don't listen to you the first time Pat!


----------



## PistolPatch

LOL Adam!

As punishment for cleaning up after you your Mum can sew you a bag - no worries!

It could well have been higher than 1035 SG especially if it's down to 1010 already. Some brews seem to just run amok for no reason. Also if the mash temp was too high, the higher bitterness will balance it all so stay excited mate.

Had a look back through this thread but can't find what you actually brewed? Should I add you to the 'Beers Currently Under Trial' list?

Cheers
Pat


----------



## Adamt

Was meant to be an ESB, however now an Ordinary (extra?) Bitter


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Maybe a NPSB (Not Particularly Special Bitter)? h34r: 

Again, it'll be better than my first effort.....go BIAB! :super: 

PZ.


----------



## jimmysuperlative

Not sure how to dual post so this is a cut and paste from the All In One Brewery thread:

My BIAB Amarillo APA looks to have "finished" at about 1.022 - 1.023 ...its been steady for three days. I had hoped it would have kicked on when I racked it ...

I've included a cut and paste from beersmith of my grains and gravity results to date. Obviously I've got concerns about the high FG. I was aiming for around 1.012

I full mashed for 90mins @ 67C and no-chilled until pitching yeast at 20C.
Primary ferment was 8days at 18C (good krausen and airlock activity for 4-5days)

Beer tastes good out of fermenter (not sweet) so I'm happy to go ahead and keg it. What I'd like is some advice on whether to leave it and see if the gravity drops further, pitch new yeast, or keg and drink?

What are your thoughts? Anyone?

Grain Bill

2.50 kg JW Traditional Ale (5.5 SRM) 
2.00 kg JW Export Pils (3.0 SRM)
0.50 kg Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM)
0.15 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) 
0.10 kg Carafoam (2.0 SRM)

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.046 SG Measured Original Gravity: 1.050 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.022 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.4 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 3.6 % 
Est Color: 10.6 SRM


----------



## jimmysuperlative

jimmysuperlative said:


> Not sure how to dual post so this is a cut and paste from the All In One Brewery thread:
> 
> My BIAB Amarillo APA looks to have "finished" at about 1.022 - 1.023 ...its been steady for three days. I had hoped it would have kicked on when I racked it ...
> 
> I've included a cut and paste from beersmith of my grains and gravity results to date. Obviously I've got concerns about the high FG. I was aiming for around 1.012
> 
> I full mashed for 90mins @ 67C and no-chilled until pitching yeast at 20C.
> Primary ferment was 8days at 18C (good krausen and airlock activity for 4-5days)
> 
> Beer tastes good out of fermenter (not sweet) so I'm happy to go ahead and keg it. What I'd like is some advice on whether to leave it and see if the gravity drops further, pitch new yeast, or keg and drink?
> 
> What are your thoughts? Anyone?
> 
> Grain Bill
> 
> 2.50 kg JW Traditional Ale (5.5 SRM)
> 2.00 kg JW Export Pils (3.0 SRM)
> 0.50 kg Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM)
> 0.15 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM)
> 0.10 kg Carafoam (2.0 SRM)
> 
> Beer Profile
> 
> Est Original Gravity: 1.046 SG Measured Original Gravity: 1.050 SG
> Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.022 SG
> Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.4 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 3.6 %
> Est Color: 10.6 SRM





BEST THING I'VE EVER DONE ... was to check my refractometer readings against my old hydrometer.

I think I need a lesson in reading refractometers because my FG dropped 12 points when I measured a sample with the hydrometer. 

...I rechecked the result using another old hydrometer and got the same 1.010 reading!!!! Wahoo!!!!!

I am now about to keg my first ever BIAB ...and then I will research refractometers and how to use them properly??? 

God knows what my "true" readings were for starting gravity and gravity into boiler etc ...I thought the instructions said to simply multiply the refrac reading by 4 ...so my refrac reads 5.7 which I multiply to get 22.8 which I thought translated to 1.023 ?? Where did I stuff up?


----------



## goatherder

nice one jimmysuperlative.

refrac readings are considered dodgy once the beer has some alcohol in it. You'll find many brewers don't use them for FG readings and stick to the hydro. The biggest advantage of this method is getting to taste the sample. 

Don't sweat your OG readings from the hydro, they might have been OK. Check the refrac against the hydro next you've got some unfermented wort just to make sure.


----------



## jimmysuperlative

goatherder said:


> nice one jimmysuperlative.
> 
> refrac readings are considered dodgy once the beer has some alcohol in it. ...You'll find many brewers don't use them for FG readings and stick to the hydro. The biggest advantage of this method is getting to taste the sample.
> 
> Don't sweat your OG readings from the hydro, they might have been OK. Check the refrac against the hydro next you've got some unfermented wort just to make sure.




Something it doesn't clearly state on the packaging and instructions !! ...my excuse, anyway


----------



## PistolPatch

Jimmy, I just posted a reply that mirrors Goatherder's in the All in One thread. Keg and drink the bastard - we want the taste test!

I have further good news on BIAB...

*BIAB Works with Lagers - A General Thumbs Up.*

Since doing the first BIAB on Ross's Schwartzbier, I've been quite sure that there were no real problems with this brewing method. This morning I carbonated the first lager, the AndrewQLD Pilsner and now I have absolutely no hesitation in recommending the method.

I couldn't taste any brewing errors despite this being my first lager and one major brewing mistake, in my opinion, being made. To make sure, I bottled it at 10am and took it up to Ross's at 4pm.

This style of beer and recipe is very transparent - it shows readily any brewing errors. It is the total opposite of the Schwartzbier (Black Beer). Ross detected some yeast bite which he reckons will dissapear in about a fortnight. This mistake can't be attributed to BIAB.

We also had some of the Kilcenny Clone which no one could taste on Father's Day. This was the 3% beer. Both Ross and Kevin (the local bee-keper) gave this the thumbs up too. The Black Beer has had unaminous thumbs up.

One other thing is that Ross and others are big ale men. Ross has been trying to stop me from becoming a little lager girl! I had 3 of his ales this arvo and they were bloody good. Two out of the three were also totally suited to my palate. I fear that he is going to turn me.

*Other BIAB News* 

In light of what has been brewed to date, I'm going to re-think the first 4 posts. I no longer consider this method as being under trial. As far as I and the others can see, this method is as valid as any other brewing method.

It might take a little time for me to tidy things up here. Being crook for those few weeks has put me way behind in too many areas - still haven't revised the spreadsheet!

In the meantime though, those of you wanting to give BIAB a bash, go for it.

A good day!
Pat


----------



## PistolPatch

*Thread Update*

Have reduced and changed the content of the first four posts of the thread this morning.

*FNQBunyip Is Under Way* 

For those who missed FNQBunyip's thread on his first BIAB, you can find it here He's put in some great pics and yesterday did his second BIAB. We had a chat yesterday and he seems very happy with the process. Also had a chat about the NASA and burning bags. Bunyip found that the keggle would actually glow red hot using the NASA, hence the burned bag. Guys using ring burners and a heavy based pot shouldn't need a cake rack etc. Will add FNQ's beer to the under trial list.

*Escalator Mash*

Started the first escalator mash early this morning and I think this is going to cause more problems than the one it's meant to solve i.e. saving the one degree strike calculation.

I threw the grain in at 25 degrees and about five minutes later started to hear little rumblings. Thought it was just vibration at first but after giving it a stir, bubbles were rapidly released. I realised that what was happening was the grain was trapping the very hot water underneath it and therefore probably bringing the small area at the base of the pot to the boil. Probably did this for ten minutes before I caught on. Ended up having to stir the bastard for 20 minutes until it reached mash temperature. Maybe the cake rack would solve this problem but for now I think I better re-write the guide and exclude the escalator mash. A lot of re-writing needs to be done!

Cheers
Pat

P.S. Hopefully we'll hear how Jimmy's beer tasted today.


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

Pat you have hit the nail on the head. I think it was the grain trapping the heat that burnt the bag. I heard the rummberling as I was adding the second bag but coulden't stir till I put the rest in and got the paddle.. to late. That said I wont light my NASA with the bag on the bottom. I did one temp adjustment yesterday and it was just a matter of lifting bag with the sky hook , tieing it up and relighting the burner.. with the NASA it went up 3 in under 2 minutes.

Anyone reading and thinking of trying this method of AG,,,, JUST DO IT.... 

:beer:


----------



## Maxt

Just popped my AG cherry with a BIAB version of Doc's Chocolate Oat Porter.

Some musings:

*I used my 4 ring gas stove and it went like the clappers. From filling with cold water, to 65 degrees took about 15 mins (30L). 
Had a bit of trouble early with mash temp consistency, but just the usual first time experience. (I was using a 80L aluminium kettle). To use sporting parlance, "I will be all the better for the run, next time".

A question which isn't addressed in your guide. Do you mash with the lid on or off?

*There seems to be a lot of weight on the bag when removing. Not sure how the bag would hold up to a double brew with the 8 kg + of grain and liquid saturation. It would be very hard to lift off as well.

*I evaporated a lot more than I expected. Started with 30L, ended up with 15L after removing and draining grain bag. 

*I put the wort straight into a fermenter and put it in the bath with a bit of water (which doubled as the kids' bath water later). I did this mainly because I wanted to get everything squared away before the evening. It took 4 hrs to get the wort to pitching temp.

Tastes great out of the hydrometer, so hopefully a successful brew.

Pat, you have turned this humble K&K brewer into a grain convert!


----------



## Adamt

What kind of efficiency did you get?


----------



## Maxt

Not sure with this one, my hydrometer broke a while back, and the one I have as a spare only starts at 1040.


----------



## PistolPatch

[The following long post is brought to you by *AndrewQLD pilsner* . I BIAB'd his recipe and tasted it 5 days ago. At first, I was impressed as there were no off-flavours but frankly, found the beer pretty boring. After 5 days carbonation in the keg though this has turned into a brilliant beer. :beer: Andrew!]



Maxt said:


> Just popped my AG cherry with a BIAB version of Doc's Chocolate Oat Porter.



Splendid stuff Maxt!

I've heard rumours that a few people we haven't heard from were going to give BIAB a go but you are the first to post. Thanks mate for your feedback and congratulations on your first AG :beerbang: I hope you found this easier than your partials. As for your queries...

Don't get overly-worried about your *mash temp consistency* . If you can get within two or three degrees of your aimed mash temp in your first twenty minutes then that's great. Most of the work is done. Getting it exact is one of those fine-tuning things you can challenge yourself to if you want but a few degrees is not going to make a difference detectable to most brewers. Finding a recipe that is in the ball-park of what you like should be a far higher priority than perfecting mash temperatures. After the first 20 minutes, I don't worry too much. I'll let the temp drop by 3 or so degrees before I bother giving a heat burst. My guide has too much detail and therefore emphasis in some areas.

As for *mashing with lid on or off*, keep it on as this will help preserve heat loss. Only remove the lid when you're agitating the mash and checking the temperature.

I wouldn't like to be lifting a *double batch BIAB* either! Good point Max. I have a little step-ladder which I forgot to use on my last brew. It's bloody heavy lifting and impossible to twirl when the top of your kettle is not waist high. I actually ended up getting the ladder out. Apart from a pulley system, I can't think of an easy way to double-batch BIAB. Oh well.

*Evaporation Rates.* In the guide I suggest 38 litres to start. This should get you in the ball park. 30 litres would definitely leave you short but topping up with tap water is an easy way to get around this until you get your rates rate. I'm still having trouble with evaporation rates. My 3 ring burner seems to be consistently inconsistent! (I think it's when the gas bottle gets down to the last third???)

(By the way, when you said that you ended up with 15 litres after removing and draining the bag, I'm assuming that you removed the bag before the boil i.e. straight after the mash. Let me know if you didn't.)

Taking *4 hours to get to pitching temp* is not a worry. When you're starting out, you learn to make do with what you have. The sooner you pitch then the less risk for sure. Sometimes, you can work your lack of equipment to your advantage. In your case for example, I'd pitch my ale yeast at 30-33 degrees. Yeast love that warm temperature to multiply in. Two or three hours later it will be at your fermenting temperature. Top stuff!

Great questions from you Max and once again congrats on your first AG.

Cheers mate,
Pat


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Maybe this should ahve gone in the All In One thread, but I'm very lazy and this one is on the Latest Posts list :lol: 

Did my first AG batch with the new pot-in-pot setup today:

1850g Joe White Munich, 
150g Joe White Munich (home roasted to a nice caramel colour inside and dark brown outside), 
Mash-hopped 10g Saaz just for the hell of it, 
15G Fuggles for 60 mins, 
8g Fuggles for 45 mins, 
13g Bramling Cross for 30 mins, 
8g EK Goldings for 15 mins, 
45g Cane Sugar added at 15 mins to go, 
Pitching US-56 dry yeast once cooled and in the fermenter. 

Obviously the is a "recovery version" of my weak BIAB attempt. 

Kept the mash temp over 63 the whole time, but due to outside interferences it got up to 69 at times, but mostly around 66...pretty much where I wanted it...hoping it'll be good :huh: 

This was supposed to be an 11.5 Litre batch, but as it'll need topping up, I'll probably keep it down to 10 Litres in the frementer...only need 9L for the keg, so why the hell not? :chug: 

PZ.

*edit* - this time it was very "thin" mash...around 4L water to each 1Kg grain......(the main problem last time was deemed to be a complete reverse of this (too thick))


----------



## PistolPatch

Glad to hear it went well Fingerlickin. I'm not sure where your post should go either. There's no bag but you used gas. All of us would find your method of great interest though. You did a bloody nice job on the equipment too. (See Jimmy's pics in All In One Brewery thread). Did the SS mesh work OK?

As for mash thickness, I would have mashed with 7-8 litres per kilo. This would give you a final volume that is about right.

Top effort mate and will look forward to hearing how it tastes. Should be perfect this time.

Good on ya,
Pat


----------



## Maxt

No Pat I didn't leave the bag in for the boil  . 

If anything the boil may have been too vigorous. I boiled for 90 mins and really saw a huge evaporation from then on.

I was going to go no-chill, but I only had a single batch, and it went straight into the fermenter. I was looking for a cool place to put it out of the way so I stuck it in the bath. As it was sitting there I thought, "bugger it, I might as well chill".

Happy to say it is now bubbling away. :beerbang:


----------



## PistolPatch

Jimmysuperlative has just done his first AG and his first BIAB. You might have missed his thread on it (very-well written.) You can find it here

Superb post Jimmy!



> Pat, I didn't leave the bag in for the boil.



Maxt: Thank God for that! You had me worried there!

I wouldn't worry about a too vigorous boil. From what I have read, you should maintain a vigorous boil. I've never seen anything written that discourages this. Makes sense to me.

I'm not too educated on no-chill. I just get snippetts here and there. Some people will pitch the next day and others weeks later. I think your bathtub idea was great though. You didn't have a chiller and didn't waste any water while still cooling things down ASAP. As I said, use this to your advantage.

Are you kegging Max? i.e. Can we expect a taste test soon? Let me know so I can add your beer to the BIAB list.

Cheers
Pat


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Guys, 

As I mentioned (at least I think I did), couldn't use the hydrometer, as I've lost my sample tube (old decorative olive oil jar or some crap). 

I fear my efficiency may have been down again this time, even though I had a loose enough mash, kept within temps and agitated often  

I guess it must be just over 24 hours since pitching the US-56 and I'm seeing pretty much what I saw last time with the "horrible efficiency" first attempt...plenty of bubbles rising from the yeast cake, but only scum and a few bubbles on top...no foamy krausen <_< 

Should I just tip it out now?  

PZ.

*edit* - I even did a small sparge this time...a real one with around 4-5L of 75deg water :angry:


----------



## PistolPatch

Fingerlickin_B said:


> Should I just tip it out now?



No way! From what I can tell you've done everything correctly so don't worry about it.

Not sure if I have an answer for you here though. The only thing that I can think of is that maybe it's just the recipe? I wonder if a search here on krausen would give you some answers? Or, maybe the krausen has even been and gone already. Any marks on the fermenter?

Sometimes beer behaves badly for no good reason - just like an old girlfriend of mine.

If it doesn't taste any good, I'd try a different recipe on the next run.


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Yeah, I had a look just before bed last night and there seems to be an indication (gunk up the sides) that maybe it has come and gone...but I never saw it :blink: 

PZ.


----------



## hughman666

Did my first BIAB on Saturday. This was the recipe:

*Pale Ale

*5kg	Pale Malt (Weyermann)
600g	Caramunich II (Weyermann)
250g	Carawheat (Weyermann)
25g	Chinook [13.00%] (60 min)
25g	Cascade [5.50%] (15 min)
25g	Cascade [5.50%] (Dry Hop 24 hrs)
25g	Chinook [13.00%] (Dry Hop 24 hrs)
1 Pkgs	US56	Yeast-Ale	

The dry hoppings were added after transferring to a cube for the no-chiller method overnight.

The mash temps were a bit all over the place initially but settled out at 67-68c.

Bubbling away right now and smells great. Will report back upon tasting! :chug:


----------



## PistolPatch

Good on you HMan and congratulations on being the first WA BIAB Brewer!

With your keg set-up you should be hooking into that in a few weeks. Perfect.

With the wandering temperature you mentioned in another thread...

1. Heat your strike water to 1 degree above the mash temp you're aiming at and make sure you've given the strike water a good stir before taking the temperature reading.

2. After flame off and adding the grain, stir for a few minutes as the thick bottomed pots retain a fair bit of heat. If you do further heat applications during the mash, stir during the application and a little while after for the same reason. Also give a good stir before taking temp readings of the mash.

Doing the above will keep your temps pretty much on track.

I'm really looking forward to tasting your produce when I get over.

:beer: 
Pat


----------



## Adamt

Just cracked the first bottle of my highly botched, AG-cherry poppin BIAB!

As expected from the crappy mash, it has the aroma of rich caramel sauce and quite a bit of the caramel taste came through too! Does'nt have any of that classic homebrew tang and I'm loving the fact that I have real hop bitterness!!

Pity it's a midstrength, anyway, I wish the damned courier would hurry up with my supplies so I can do a big, meaty American IPA with a proper BIAB bag! (I finally lashed out and went to Spotlight Pat!)

I'm a happy chappy!

-Adam


----------



## PistolPatch

Donya Adam!

Glad to hear that came out OK and especially pleased to hear about the new bag - lol. The next one you do will be a breeze.

My apologies to you and Phrak as well for not doing the work I promised on the spreadsheet or booklet for that matter as yet. I really need at least a full day on it and who knows when that'll happen?

Hopefully if Max and Hughman are any indication, at least it's good enough to get people under way for the moment.

Be good to see an IPA on the list Adam. I must update the first threads here too with these new beers.

Well done mate,
Pat


----------



## Phrak

PistolPatch said:


> My apologies to you and Phrak as well for not doing the work I promised on the spreadsheet or booklet for that matter as yet. I really need at least a full day on it and who knows when that'll happen?


Nah mate, no worries. To be honest, I haven't had a chance to do any spreadsheet work (let alone brewing!) lately either, but hopefully that'll change in the next two weeks.

In fact, I KNOW it will change on Sunday 29th October (can you tell I'm counting down the days? :lol. The wife and daughter are being shipped off to my cousin's baby shower and I'll have the whole day to brew - And hopefully achieve a number of "firsts" along the way. :super: 

I'm planning to brew a nice, safe Golden Ale style beer (with Amarillo and Simcoe yumm). Not only will it be my first AG and BIAB batch, but I'm going to have a crack at doing a DOUBLE-BATCH BIAB  

Fingers crossed...
I'll be aiming for about 45L into the fermentor, enough for two 19L kegs after fermentor losses, etc.

Now for this brew, I have one major concern - That the amount of grain I'm going to use will be too heavy for the violle bag to support. I'm yet to get the material to build my bag, so I have no idea what the tensile strength would be. The grain bill works out at roughly 8.5kg of grain!

I have consididered a few options if the grain bag is too small/too weak - 
Make a Double-layer bag + use a nylon rope as the neck string. 
Doing a LARGE partial mash style boil i.e. cut-down the grain-bill and add Dried Malt Extract at the end to increase the grav to the right level (how I work the amount out, I have no idea!)
Split the mash into two lots and mash the second lot in the "runnings" (for want of a better term) of the first lot. I'm less fond of the split-mash idea than the DME addition because it will effectively double my mash time.
So what's everyone reckon? Doable or dreamin'? 

Regards,
Tim.

Edit: Stupid calendar got the month wrong


----------



## James Squire

Phrak said:


> In fact, I KNOW it will change on Sunday 29th September (can you tell I'm counting down the days? :lol.



Next year!?!?!?!?!?! :blink:  

JS


----------



## James Squire

Phrak said:


> So what's everyone reckon? Doable or dreamin'?
> 
> Regards,
> Tim.



How about.... Don't use a bag. Drill holes in the bottom of a 20L bucket instead. Tie the bucket to a rope and use a double pulley system to hoist the heavy bucket back out at the end of the mash. Easy! What do you think?

JS


----------



## Phrak

James Squire said:


> Phrak said:
> 
> 
> 
> In fact, I KNOW it will change on Sunday 29th September (can you tell I'm counting down the days? :lol.
> 
> 
> 
> Next year!?!?!?!?!?! :blink:
> JS
Click to expand...

Doh - I meant 29th OCTOBER!  Original post edited.


----------



## Phrak

James Squire said:


> How about.... Don't use a bag. Drill holes in the bottom of a 20L bucket instead. Tie the bucket to a rope and use a double pulley system to hoist the heavy bucket back out at the end of the mash. Easy! What do you think?
> 
> JS



Hmm, yeah potentially a go-er. I'll have to have a read up on how you bucket guys go with getting water to the whole grain bed. Got any tips or links to save me time researching?


----------



## hughman666

just took a hydro reading of BIAB Pale Ale from the weekend

OG 1047
currently sitting at 1028 and I pitched the yeast on Sunday morning.

I took the hydro reading out of curiosity as this is biggest ferment i have ever seen! after 3 days of bubbling away madly there is still a thick layer of foam (approx 2 inches) on top. it's been sitting at 20c throughout the ferment and i'll rack this on saturday as i need my fermenter for BIAB # 2 which will probably be either a pilsner or a golden ale - still deciding.

go BIAB!!! :super:


----------



## James Squire

Phrak said:


> James Squire said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about.... Don't use a bag. Drill holes in the bottom of a 20L bucket instead. Tie the bucket to a rope and use a double pulley system to hoist the heavy bucket back out at the end of the mash. Easy! What do you think?
> 
> JS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, yeah potentially a go-er. I'll have to have a read up on how you bucket guys go with getting water to the whole grain bed. Got any tips or links to save me time researching?
Click to expand...


Best I can do is tell you my own experience. I make 21L batches in my 40L urn with a 20L bucket as a submersible mash tun. Usually around 5Kg grain placed into bucket which is then submerged into around 33Litres of water in the urn. This is kind of a psuedo underletting method too so not a lot of stirring is required either. During the entire mash I recirculate the water from the bottom of the urn to the top of the grain bed (using a cheap pond pump) to give an even temp. After the mash I simply lift the bucket slowly to allow most of the the wort to drain from the grain (without splashing!). 

There is a small amount of water that is trapped between the outer wall of the bucket and the inner wall of the urn however I don't find this to be a problem due to the high water:grain ratio. If anything it just helps to further insulate the mash temps from ambient... The temp will be higher in the mash than in that dead space area though so keep that in mind.

All my pics can be seen in the link below but I think for such a large quantity of grain like you are talking of I reckon you will need a 25L+ bucket rather than a 20L. Feel free to ask q's.

Here is the link

Good luck and cheers,

JS


----------



## James Squire

Oh yeah,

Well done hughman, sounds like your pale is definately on its way to greatness!

JS


----------



## PistolPatch

*Hughman* - Looks like things are going perfectly. I suppose whether you do a pils or an ale depends on your brewing schedule/equipment. The pils is going to steal your fermenter for two weeks so I reckon build your stocks up first - after all, I'm coming over soon  Can you keep your fermenter at 9 degrees at your house?

*Phrak* - Good to hear from you. Interesting question which I was only thinking about last night funnily enough. I like the ideas you've come up with. Here's some thoughts...

1. Tensile strength of bag is no worries but lifting 10 wet kilos will require a pulley system I reckon. When I move to my next place I'm hoping I can install such a thing even for the single batches. If you suspend using the drawstring, which would be simplest, the weakest point of the bag would be your stitching so, if you go that way, stitch well.

2. The bucket - Good to hear from James as well. Cheers mate - good post too. I reckon you would have no problems with a bucket in the mash volume arena even without a pump if you used a masher like mine - the paint stirrer shaped like a potato masher. With a double-batch, I'd concentrate on agitating a fair bit for the first 20 minutes of the mash and then relax as most of the work has been done. To decrease the risk of an inefficient mash, as James said, I'd imagine the bigger the bucket the better.

3. With the bucket (or the bag), you can also pour the grain in after the bucket is submerged. I have never had any doughballs from this method. 

I have some questions though which James and others should be able to answer or may already have...

Q1 What size holes should Phrak drill? Would he have to use mesh as well? 

Personally, although the bag gives a very clear wort, I've learned that a cloudy wort can actually be beneficial so this is not a major point to worry about.

Q2 What method do you use to stop the bucket getting near the bottom and sides of the kettle.

I'm just thinking it might melt if it got too close! Probably a stupid question but it's something I'd be worried about.

Finally Phrak, do you have to start with a double-batch on your first AG? I'm just thinking that a single batch might be safer to start with. 70 or so litres is a lot to heat up and boil first off. How big's your kettle and how big's your burner baby 

LOL
Pat


----------



## James Squire

Hey there Pat! Have to be quick mate but here goes....

I drilled sh1tloads of 2.5mm holes in the bottom of my bucket and then mesh on top of that. You could go one way or the other really, im just an extreme bucket masher! :beerbang: 1.5mm to 2.0mm holes will pretty much keep all the husks in the bucket so no need for mesh, or bigger holes with mesh as seen in the link below is fine also.

To best answer about the second question I'll just show you pics again of Wobbly's setup. I do the same but don't have photo's handy. The bucket is kept off the bottom using S/S bolts for standoffs.

Gotta fly now so hope this helps!

Cheers,

JS


----------



## PistolPatch

Donya James. Love your extreme bucket masher comment!

Funny how you forget stuff. The obvious answer on what size holes to drill without mesh is exactly the same size holes you would drill in a mash tun manifold that being 1/8" or a No 30 drill. Doh!

When we get a few more people doing full volume brewing, we'll have to start a fighting thread, "Bag or Bucket," or should I say, "Bucket or Bag!" LOL.

Don't worry though mate, I'm still thinking through the bucket. There's something there that keeps nagging me - in a good way though. I'm almost positive there is another advantage to it we haven't discovered as yet.

For the moment though, as Jimmysuperlative would say, "Bag it man!"

LOL
Pat


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

Well I'll have first tasting reports a bit later this morning .. as I unload this truck .. oh boy am I looking forward to today... 

mmmm real beer

:beer:


----------



## PistolPatch

Waiting with baited breath Bunyip! Was it really good and you drank too much to post or really bad and you are now dead?

LOL
Pat


----------



## hughman666

ok so i'm 20 minutes into the mash and i have done it differently this time, as last time i found temperature control a challenge with a 4 ring burner. 

what i did:

- i've used 2 x 15L SS pots on the gas stove to get them to 70c and then poured them into the kettle.

- i then put the mashbag in and found the temp went down to 62c.

- then lifted the kettle onto the stove and sat it over the 2 front burners which are the main ones

- gave it a burst of that for 10 mins, temp goes up to 66c

- dropped them back to minimum and checked over 2 x 5min periods, still 66c.

this way i can have far greater control over the temp and at the same time conserve my gas bottle for the boil only B) 

i must stress that you should BE CAREFUL lifting the kettle as it could be hazardous h34r:


----------



## Adamt

Just put the lid on pot then to no-chill after a more successful second BIAB, an American IPA!

Once again however, even with the voile bag, I had lots of trouble removing the bag, a very large amount of water retained in the bag when lifting, making it extremely awkward :S. Eventually moved it and suspended it above another pot, and took me aboot 30 mins to squeeze the heck out of it. Definitely was a two person job, that I had to manage on my own lol.

Smelt a lot sweeter and richer than my first (previous) BIAB, hopefully the efficiency is better this time, though its probably not hard to beat 40%! :S

Recipe follows:
4kg BB Pale
1kg JW Light Munich
1kg BB Galaxy
0.25kg JW Caramalt

25g Chinook 13% 60min
25g Chinook 13% 15min
2 plug Cascade 6% 15min
2 plug Cascade 6% 2min
Total: 53IBU

US-56 yeast

Expected OG 1.060 (70%) for 23L


Hops smell delicious!

-Adam


----------



## lucas

I had quiet the mishap this morning doing another BIAB partial APA. Everything was going well for the mash, i lifted out the bag at 90 mins and let it drain for a bit. i tilted the bag to try and get all the liquid to run to the corner and the material/overlocking gave way. lots of grain straight back into the pot  I'm not sure if it was the nylon, or the overlocking, but i'd definitely recommend a line of stitching in 3-5cm from overlocking just to be safe. 

all went well in the end, i poured the hot liquor into 4 other pots so i could clean it out, then poured it all back into the big pot through a strainer. i dont know about HSA around 65, but if it's possible I've got it.

well, it was fun while it lasted but i think my BIAB days are over. I'm gonna get the plumbing bits i need to get my mash tun up and running so i dont risk this again.


----------



## poppa joe

Vote no. 1.............for the bucket..
PJ :beerbang:


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

lucas said:


> I had quiet the mishap this morning doing another BIAB partial APA. Everything was going well for the mash, i lifted out the bag at 90 mins and let it drain for a bit. i tilted the bag to try and get all the liquid to run to the corner and the material/overlocking gave way. lots of grain straight back into the pot  I'm not sure if it was the nylon, or the overlocking, but i'd definitely recommend a line of stitching in 3-5cm from overlocking just to be safe.
> 
> all went well in the end, i poured the hot liquor into 4 other pots so i could clean it out, then poured it all back into the big pot through a strainer. i dont know about HSA around 65, but if it's possible I've got it.
> 
> well, it was fun while it lasted but i think my BIAB days are over. I'm gonna get the plumbing bits i need to get my mash tun up and running so i dont risk this again.



Sounds like a pretty stressful brew day Lucas...kinda' like my last when the internal "tun" vessel fell into the kettle and wort splashed all over the kitchen walls, please don't dob on me!  h34r: 

Dang, now you are freaking me out, as I've got all my gear ready to go for the first FLB full batch next weekend...was gunna go BIAB...maybe I'll start looking for a good bucket after reading this...I don't own a sewing machine and was going to either farm the work out or do it by hand over many, many hours B) 

PZ.


----------



## poppa joe

Fingerb...
I get buckets from Bakery...Maccas....Deli.....FREE ....Ice Cream Man at markets......($2.00)
PJ


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

poppa joe said:


> Fingerb...
> I get buckets from Bakery...Maccas....Deli.....FREE ....Ice Cream Man at markets......($2.00)
> PJ



PJ, thanks for that but I've tried it before and every joint around here seems to just say"no"...some even deny ever having them...WTF?!?! :angry: 

I'll keep asking though h34r: 

PZ.


----------



## poppa joe

Finger..
Maybe Nowra more friendly......
If ever in Nowra I have some DIFFERENT sizes
PJ


----------



## Zizzle

The trick may be to design your bag so that there is no seam across the bottom.

Having said that, mine has a seam across the bottom. Not even overlocked, just a normal seam on a normal machine. It has survived it's first few brews, no signs of trouble.

BIAB is working out great for me.

Got any pics of your bag lucas?


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

poppa joe said:


> Finger..
> Maybe Nowra more friendly......
> If ever in Nowra I have some DIFFERENT sizes
> PJ



Thanks for the offer PJ :beer: ...how far is Nowra from Sussex Inlet? :unsure: 

PZ.


----------



## poppa joe

Finger....... About half hour drive...North Nowra
PJ


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Just thought I'd ask PJ, as a mate has has place and goes fishing down there all the time. 

BUT, just realised my dad is at Tuross...surely the bakery there won't be pricks and I think a girl I once used to know might still work there...so I'll ask him to check it out tomorrow :beer: 

PZ.


----------



## poppa joe

Finger ...Bakery may have 10lt and 20 lt...they have Dairy Farmers..Products in them.
Cream ...etc..
PJ


----------



## hughman666

pretty much like anything, if you have thought it through and designed it accordingly, you minimize yuour chances of trouble.

ditching BIAB due to poor design doesn't mean that your next method will work...

lucas, i'm keen to see how your bag was designed....

i wouldn't go onto plumbing until i could hold a pile of grain in a nylon sheet myself :unsure:


----------



## hughman666

Fingerlickin_B said:


> I don't own a sewing machine and was going to either farm the work out or do it by hand over many, many hours B)
> 
> PZ.


for the record, i dont own a sewing machine and placed several (approx 10) triple stitched "locks" around the bag and fed the drawstring through. this took around 15 minutes.


----------



## mimerbryg

poppa joe said:


> Vote no. 1.............for the bucket..
> PJ :beerbang:


Vote number 2 from me  

Pics of my new crane here http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=160817


Kind regards
Flemming


----------



## Maxt

I have no seam on the bottom, they are on the sides and top. Works fine for me, but I don't think it would handle double batches (even thoughthe bag is big enough).


----------



## lucas

Zizzle said:


> The trick may be to design your bag so that there is no seam across the bottom.
> 
> Having said that, mine has a seam across the bottom. Not even overlocked, just a normal seam on a normal machine. It has survived it's first few brews, no signs of trouble.
> 
> BIAB is working out great for me.
> 
> Got any pics of your bag lucas?


nah, it's at the bottom of my wheelie bin. i'll describe it though. it was basically made a like a liner for the pot, round bottom with straight up sides. not a design i'd recommend, far too much stitching to go wrong.


----------



## PistolPatch

Just on my way out but a couple of things...

If you order your grain with a coarser crush, you'll find the bag drains far more quickly and is easier to lift. I just hang mine from a door handle for about ten minutes once removed and it drains in about ten minutes. I give it a quick squeeze then but usually bugger all comes out.

Lucas, go and get your bag out of the bin - lol! I'm thinking that maybe the thread you used wasn't nyon or, more likely, the stitching on the corner wasn't finished off properly? Shame to see you do all that work though and not have another try as the BIAB is very easy and time/labour effective.

In any brewing method things can go wrong in the early days that cause a bit of a nightmare - tuns leaking, manifolds coming apart, sparges sticking, taps being knocked open etc. All part of the fun eh?

Though I haven't had any of these problems, so far with BIAB, we've learned...

1. Coarser crush makes things a bit easier.
2. A NASA in a keg will burn the bag.
3. The bag needs to line the kettle (as per the booklet) and your stitching needs to be solid and done with nylon.

I can't see anything else unexpected popping up but you never know!

Sorry you had to take one for the team though Lucas and thanks for helping in the pioneering here. Hope the brew turns out yummy after all your hard work. Cheers mate.

Uh oh! Now I'm running late...


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

FNQ Bunyip said:


> Well I'll have first tasting reports a bit later this morning .. as I unload this truck .. oh boy am I looking forward to today...
> 
> mmmm real beer
> 
> :beer:




Well Thursday diden't go as planed so no beer was tasted, but the truck was unloaded . Bugger.

Yesterday however was a much better day. My BIAB ESB was conected up and even tho it started out a bit undercarbed the taste was great . The missus and I enjoyed a bit of an arvo session on it after a shake up and gassing. For my first AG I'm rapt. I now have a new keg fridge and will be able to store 4 cornies cold so the under carb thing should be a thing of the past. 

So a thanks to Ross for the grain and recipe, a thanks to Pat for the BIAB , and a thanks to all the board members who have encoraged and assisted in the change to AG ..
:beer:


----------



## PistolPatch

We were wondering what happened to you Bunyip. Glad to hear all is going well. Also good to hear Adam found using the big bag on his 2nd BIAB a lot more successful. Thanks to Zizzle and hughman for their feedback as well.

Hey Bunyip. How do you work the bag in a keg-shaped vessel? How do you suspend it and stop it from tearing?

Next brew I do, I'm going to try some step mashing. Will let you know how she goes.

Cheers
Pat


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

PistolPatch said:


> We were wondering what happened to you Bunyip. Glad to hear all is going well.
> 
> Hey Bunyip. How do you work the bag in a keg-shaped vessel? How do you suspend it and stop it from tearing?
> 
> Cheers
> Pat




Its good to be home in the north Pat, the rat race just dosen't do it for me... h34r: 

As for the bag in a keg like vessel; I have "C" section floor joists above me so I have a pully set up to lift the bag above the wort level and let it drain for a few minutes then as the grain is at the bottom of the bag I need to grab the bag and tilt it side ways to fit it out of the opening. The hole in the top has very smooth edges so no catching or snagging. My bag was sewn down one side and across the bottom, it has 2 passes along the base and around the corner but only one up the full length of the long side(will add a bit more after lucas's post) but I have no sign of any pulling. I have a draw string in the top that holds the bag open around the keggle and then closed to lift it out. When out I hang on a cross brace of the house and let drain till the boil starts then just add the 1/2lt or so to the boil. 


The ESB has been flowing freely since I got back , its proberly a bit dark and heavy for a full on session beer that I would normaly brew but VERY close to the best tasting brew I've ever made. I'm converted .. :excl: I will brew more along this line but for next winter. 

My Crank& hasent got here yet (missus checking mail this arvo) so I go and look at all my grain 3 or 4 times a day and wish... Next month will be big on the BIAB. I need to stock up befor the floods ect ect and cant wait to find a recipe that suits the quaffing /guzzleing tropics... many hr s spent playing around in beersmith so far and lots more ahead by the look of it... 

:beer:


----------



## Morrie0069

Received my grain, yeast and hops from Ross on Tuesday - his service is fantastic! So that forced me to go out and get the bag bits and pieces yesterday. The last day or so I've made up a shoddy (hand stitched) bag, but made in such a fashion that there is only stitching around the top (really only there to stop fraying) - kind of like how your Grandma used to do plum pudding! I also took some left over material and made a couple of hop bags.

I have a question about hopping - Is it OK to leave hops that are added during the boil in the pot, or are they removed and replaced by others at later stages? I'm guessing they stay in, but thought I should check, as this is my first AG!

I only have a 20 Litre pot at the moment, so it looks like I'll be splitting my recipes in half and doing 2 boils to get the full fermenter - or is there a better way? 

Brew number 1 will be Andrew Clark's Coopers Pale Ale Clone, which I have made up a yeast starter from some real CPA. 

Brew number 2 will be Steve Archibald's AG Pilsener.

Hopefully I will get a chance to do these tomorrow, but if not the weekend looks good! Either way, I'm about to jump head first into AG........................ :lol:


----------



## PistolPatch

Good on you Morrie for diving in. The hops stay in all the way through. You can even leave them in while cooling the wort. Your hop bags should work well to stop a lot of unneccessary trub.

To be honest mate, the small pot is going to be a bit of a bastard. The upside is that when you get a big pot, you'll find the process a dream.

The problem is if you do it in 2 hits, it's going to take forever but with the 20 litre pot I'm not sure there's an alternative. I'll think on this a bit and send you a PM in the morning.

Think, think, think...
Pat

Hey Ned, thanks for the report mate. I reckon Batz's Kin Kin Ale is the recipe you are chasing. I think I drank a keg of it! Will send you a mail in the next few days.


----------



## poppa joe

I only have a 20 lt urn...
I cut the bottom out of a bucket (from the bakery about 10 lt cream buck) to size of urn....Then welded the bottom part back in ..
Used a solder iron and melted the plastics together....Drilled holes....
I have a larger type of system in progress...not ready yet....
PJ
Still vote for the bucket.... :beerbang:


----------



## Morrie0069

Pat - took your advice about not splitting the batch in half. My catering mate who I was going to get a large (40 litre) bucket off was too busy for me to go around today, so I looked around the house and found my 40 litre esky. Thought this would do the trick, so I've put 30 litres of water that I heated to 68 degrees and added my grain bag. Unfortunately my grain bag isn't big enough to close with 5 Kg of grain in it - didn't expect it to expand that much when I opened the vac pack! Oh well, I guess I'll filter out any bits as best I can before it goes into the boiling pot! It's good to have the 1st AG brew underway, although I was planning on starting at 12, that's what happens with a newborn around the place. I'll obviosly be boiling in 2 batches due to my small pot, so I'll let you know how it goes! 

Cheers,

Morrie, cracking my AG cherry! :super:


----------



## AUHEAMIC

I have just started doing partials and was a bit impatient to get the first one going. Got all my ingredients from the LHBS, went strait home, got set up to brew and realised I didnt have anything to put the grain in. 

As you can imagine I was not happy and there was a fair amount of swearing. My wife walked into the shed to see what all the fuss was about and I had a sudden brainstorm. She was wearing (among other things) a pair of stockings. I talked her into sacrificing a (clean) pair to the beer gods. 

They worked great. Although not technically brew in a bag it is close.


----------



## Morrie0069

Might keep the stocking idea in mind if I get stuck in future!

Well, the first boil is complete and now in fermenter. Ended up with about 12 litres in, so not too bad. I've now been kicked out of the brewery/kitchen, so that dinner can be cooked, so I'll have to wait before part 2 is underway. It's sitting in the boiling pot waiting to go. Once that is all done I'll get it into the fermenter and leave overnight to cool down to pitching temp, which I'm aiming to be around 18-20 degrees.

At least the break between boils gave me some time to clean up a bit. All in all, I'm quite happy with my first effort and looking forward to trying the finished product! Thanks for everyone's help and advice that Ive picked up on this forum.

Cheers,

Morrie :beer:


----------



## PistolPatch

Morrie0069 said:


> Unfortunately my grain bag isn't big enough to close with 5 Kg of grain in it - didn't expect it to expand that much when I opened the vac pack!
> 
> Cheers,
> Morrie, cracking my AG cherry! :super:



Ah! It's all good fun Morrie!

Didn't realise you had an esky so good call on using that except for the bag bit - lol! (Anyone following this who wants to brew in the bag needs to make sure their bag is big enough to 'line' the vessel they are using.)

Bloody proud of you Morrie (and you others) who are leaping in with enthusiasm and with no direct guidance. I can't imagine doing my first all-grain without help. You guys are pioneers and we have all learned a lot from you.

Morrie is the most recent I have learned something through a PM he sent me last night and that I replied to this morning. And I've just realised something else now. It looks like there are a few more possibilities to BIAB than I thought before for those with small pots though there is still a time cost.

For example, if you only had a 20 litre pot, but had an esky with a tap, you can just make a bag for the esky and mash in that. Drain into your 20 litre pot and do 2 boils.

I won't write much more tonight on this as I've had a few beers with my concretor mates :blink: however, for those with very small pots who are desperate to give AG a go, then reduce your mash time to 30 minutes* instead of 90 and your boil to 60 instead of 90. It's not a big issue.

What I might do for those who are interested and only have access to small pots is copy Morrie's and my correspondence below and see if any of you guys get some better ideas. (Hope Morrie doesn't mind me copying his PM. It's something I don't normally do Morrie! )

Cheers
Pat

*I have more to say on this but not tonight - you can even get a better beer I think???

*Morries Correspondence on Small Pots...*

Thanks for the advice Pat - I know I can't afford a larger pot ATM, so I may have to look at another alternative if you think the small pot will piss me off too much. I have a mate who is a caterer, so I could grab some large buckets off him - would I be able to get away with doing single batch in a large bucket, wrapped in a camping matress to keep the heat in, and pray to the beer gods that I won't need to heat it up at any stage? I guess I could add hot water if required, but from what I've read the temp seems to be stable with this kind of setup, and the critical time is the first bit. Anyway, I appreciate your help and look forward to what you think.

*My Usual Long Reply (5:00am this morning!)...*

I reckon that's a good idea Morrie - like the way you're thinking! Get a 40 litre bucket (60 might be easier). 

1. Chuck your bag in the bucket (Edit: make sure it fully lines the bucket!) Heat up as much water as you can in the 20 litre pot to mash temp plus one degree and then jug or syphon this into the bucket until it's safe enough to lift and pour.

2. Throw in all your grain and give it a good mix up on and off for the next 20 minutes. Meanwhile, heat another lot of water in your pot to mash temp plus one degree. When ready, just add this water to the large bucket and repeat the on and off stirring for 20 minutes. Time your 90 minute mash from when you added the first lot of water. This method should save you mucking around with insulation etc and should work fine.

You'll still have to do 2 boils with half the hops in each boil unfortunately. You could knock the boil down to 60 minutes instead of 90. This won't matter much and will mean you won't have to use as much top up water at the end.

Put some thought on how you are going to transfer the wort back into the pot etc as the mash bucket is going to be bloody heavy. In other words, see if you can get the mash bucket higher than where the pot is going to be sitting.

If the mash bucket has a tap, just attach some hose to that to drain it into the kettle. The good thing about this is that you won't have to remove the bag at all - cool.

Etc...


----------



## Morrie0069

No dramas about the copied PM Pat. 

Just started my 2nd boil, so about to get back and check it. 

Just a quick question Pat - what's the best way to clean the bag at the end of it - found the grain wants to stick to every nook and cranny known to man!

Cheers,

Morrie


----------



## PistolPatch

Peels said:


> went strait home, and My wife walked into the shed wearing (among other things) a pair of stockings. I talked her into.... worked great. Although not technically brew in a bag it is close.



Peels, I think I might have done some creative editing there - whoops!

I've never done a partial but can't see a problem with the stockings. Have seen some threads on here previously and I think some brands are better than others (this is serious - no colour run etc.)

One thing I've been meaning to post and you've reminded me of is when I did a Google search some months ago on bag brewing etc all I found was an organic site that did the mash in a 'sock' rather than a bag. I remember it said you had to keep it moving pretty much all the time. Tried to find it again now but couldn't. Did find these though....

Organic Sock Brew
This one shows what looks like a liner

If anyone has any time on their hands and can find links to BIAB, please let us know.

Spot ya,
Pat


----------



## PistolPatch

Morrie0069 said:


> what's the best way to clean the bag at the end of it - found the grain wants to stick to every nook and cranny known to man!



Good to hear from you! Hope you haven't been drinking as this makes the chill VERY long!

To clean my bag, I basically hold the bottom under a tap (preferably a shower head) and run it from side to side working the grain down to the opening. If you brew indoors the shower is best. Just hold it against the tiles and the spray seems to do most of the work. Turn it inside out to finish off and then just throw it in the washing machine (make sure you tie the draw-string first). The one or two bits of grain left by the shower seem to dissapear in the machine.

I've actually found the bag cleaning surprisingly simple with that Swiss Voile. Takes way less than 5 minutes under the shower.

Once again, stitching is probably an issue. I did get one brew recently where grain somehow got caught in the drawstring seam - no idea how??? Took about ten minutes to get the grain out but got there in the end.

I'm having a 2.5% Schwartz in your honour right now Morrie. (Won't say what I had before - lol)

:super: Pat


----------



## Morrie0069

I thought you must be on the light stuff by the length of your posts tonight...lol

I'm only on my 3rd beer, which is a Coopers Canadian Blonde that I kegged a couple of weeks back. Just had a thought, that this, along with a Mexican Cerveza I also have, might be the last K&K I have in my kegs for a while. :chug: 


I'll have an intimate shower with my bag later on Pat, I have to buy it a few drinks first!


----------



## Morrie0069

Just thought I'd let you know that it's currently snowing in Hobart, so if the brew isn't down to pitching temp by the morning then I'll chuck it outside! :blink:


----------



## PistolPatch

Morrie0069 said:


> I thought you must be on the light stuff by the length of your posts tonight...lol
> 
> I'll have an intimate shower with my bag later on Pat, I have to buy it a few drinks first!



We better start a poll. Do BIABer's have a great sense of humour or what? Only two answer options - defintely and unequivocally.

LMAO Morrie.

I sort of was on the light stuff but maybe a lot of it. Just wrote my first and last essay of the night here

Going to have some tucker now and run away from AHB.

Good luck Morrie. Drink up - you're on the home run and I want to wake up to some amusing posts 

Pat


----------



## hughman666

i've just poured my first BIAB pale ale and thought i would post the results:

1. forgot the whirfloc for this one so it is quite cloudy

2. it's only been in the keg 4 days so (as above) it is quite cloudy

3. i overhopped it somewhat with my off-boil hops (left them in while it cooled down with the no-chiller method)

i must say it does kick ass though and is a lot nicer than the kits and extracts i was doing. hard to describe, but very fresh.

my next BIAB pale ale will be ready to sample from the keg this time next week and will also be 4 days old. this time around i remembered the whirfloc and held back on the off-boil hops (only 40 minutes this time)

i'll report back next week, both on the matured BIAB pale ale #1 and the new BIAB pale ale #2.


----------



## Morrie0069

4th beer for the night has just been cracked, and I can finally put my feet up....  

OK, 2nd boil is complete and has just finished being poured into the fermenter. All up, it's around the 21 litre mark, so it's looking like a keg and maybe a sample bottle or 2. I'll put together a brew log with more detail when I get a chance. I'll take a gravity reading tomorrow before I pitch to see where I'm at. 

I just want to thank everyone on this forum, as I've gone from my first brew in January, to my first AG just 9 Months later. I'm sure that if Pat hadn't started this mad thread, then I would never have had the balls to jump in to this so early on in my brewing career! I've also got Ross to thank as well, as his excellent service has provided me with what I needed to get to this stage. 

Maybe next year's Indy could be a good AHB meeting place! I'm sure the talent pool will increase ten fold, now that rumuors are alive and well that Brad Pitt made an appearance!  

I used to wonder how people's brew days took so bloody long, but now I know. I think I started the process around 14:00 today, and I've just finished! All up, taking away dinner in between, and I'd say I've put in 8 hours to come up with my first AG - I think I'll put her to bed now and wake her up with a nice breakfast of Saflager S-23! 

Cheers,

Morrie


----------



## Maxt

Recently cracked my first BIAB all grain beer. 

Was Doc's Choc oat porter. 

Even though it's only been in the bottle not quite three weeks, I couldn't resist the temptation!

After the erratic mash, I was a bit concerned that this would not turn out too well, but the flavour and mouthfeel are better than I could have ever expected.

I'm sold.

Bottling the BIAB APA today.


----------



## PistolPatch

You got there *Morrie!* Congratulations!

You'll find the process a lot less time-consuming and easier once you get a bigger pot so you have a lot to look forward to. You've done very well to brew a full batch from your small pot. :beer: 

I was thinking that next time, maybe you could chill the first half rapidly in an ice bath or something and pitch the yeast to decrease the danger of infection. Cool the second batch as well and then just add it in.

Maybe you could use an ale yeast like US-56 to speed things up as well or is it too cold down there?

Top stuff Morrie!
Best regards from Brad Pitt 

Howdy *Hughmann*

Great to hear your first one is 'kicking ass' - lol. I ended up with one cloudy brew as well a while back though I'm not sure what caused it - started brewing at 5:30pm - big mistake! In that one I forgot the whirfloc, no-chilled it in the kettle overnight as it was so late and possibly syphoned it immediately after moving the kettle. That's why I put in the spreadsheet to let the kettle sit for ten minutes before syphoning. I must ask Weizguy if the no-chilling is a factor here or not.

Can't wait to come over and empty your fridge!

And *Maxt* is drinking too :super:

Really pleased to hear that Max. Did you find your second bash (the APA) a little easier than the first as in maintaining temp and getting correct volume?

Once again, am extremely impressed the way Max and all you others have jumped in without the one on one guidance.

Cheers,
Pat


----------



## Morrie0069

Yep, I think I'll be holding off the next AG until I get a larger pot! Doing 2 boils isn't much fun, so I think I'll see what I can scrounge up during the next couple of weeks. My 2 fermenters will be busy during that time anyway, as AG number 1 takes up 1, and I'm about to throw a quick CPA kit, with some BE2 and maybe some more hops, with a CPA yeast I've cultured from some stubbies - this was going to be for my CPA AG clone, but hey, I guess I'll just have to drink soem more when the time comes - DAMN! 

Here's a summary of what I ended up with yesterday:

5 Kg Bohemian Pilsener 

Saaz Czech Hops (3.4% AA) 12.5 grams 90 Minutes
Saaz Czech Hops (3.4% AA) 5 grams 45 Minutes
Saaz Czech Hops (3.4% AA) 7.5 grams 10 Minutes
Saaz Czech Hops (3.4% AA) 20 grams 5 Minutes

Koppafloc 1/4 teaspoon 10 Minutes

OG - 1044

Saflager S-23 Pitched at 12:30 today.

From 30 Litre mash in esky, ended up with about 21 Litres in fermenter.

It tastes nice and sweet, and smells lovely! Can't wait to try the end result.

Thanks everyone.

Cheers,

Morrie


----------



## Maxt

My second BIAB was much easier, as I had sorted out the gear. On my first go, the mash went from 60 deg to 80 at one stage (all un-planned!). The second one stayed at 69 and didn't move more than 1 degree the whole time. 

I do think I need to mash out a higher temp to improve efficiency.

I forgot to whirlpool and run off the first 100ml in the APA when going from kettle to fermenter, but other than that it was very easy.

I dry hopped 25gms of cascade, and with that and the substantial Amarillo and Casacade additions during the boil, I am looking forward to a nice hoppy APA.


I am sure I would not be into AG this early without BIAB. Good work Pat.


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Just a thought with regards to bag shape

Provided it was big enough would you even need it to be shaped like the kettle? 

What I mean is a sheet of material large enough to line the kettle should work too right? 

If Im still not being clear then I suppose you could think of it like lining a match box with a sheet of toilet paperit would fit and line the box well, but would have to fold up/crease around the edges. 

Would the folds cause any problems? :huh: 

PZ.


----------



## PistolPatch

Howdy Guys,

The sheet idea would work Finger but I reckon it would be a bastard to manage. You'd have it draping over the sides etc. I reckon getting a bag sewn up in the Swiss Voile is the way to go. Anyone that has a sewing machine will be able to do it for you really quickly. I think everyone who has tried a variation on the bag so far has just run into problems mate. Glad that new thermometer of yours fixed the other problem. Hooray!

Max, sorry I didn't see your post until now but the higher temps won't change your efficiency. This just gives you a sweeter and more full bodied beer. Lower temps give you a drier, lighter bodied beer. How did you go with your efficiency on your first crack?

Morrie, looks like we'll have to wait a while to hear your taste results. I didn't realise you were doing a pils. If you keg and have a spare one, then chuck it in that when the ferments finished, carb it up and you can taste its progess.

Cheers
Pat


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Pat, I'll still use Voile and draping over the sides won't be a problem, as the plan is to cut it in a large circle and add a drawstring around the outer edge. 

Take a tissue and put it over your finger, then take it off (maintaining the shape) and cut the end off...bingo, a perfectly circular piece :beer: 

Best thing I can imagine about this is that there won't be any seams for grain particles to get stuck in, hence easiest cleaning in the world :super: 

PZ.


----------



## hughman666

Fingerlickin_B said:


> Pat, I'll still use Voile and draping over the sides won't be a problem, as the plan is to cut it in a large circle and add a drawstring around the outer edge.



exactly what i have done and it works fantastic, no seams to worry about and the drawstring allows you to suspend it at different heights in the pot - provided you have a large enough pot of course.

i am actually moving onto using my old 36L esky for my mash tun but that's still a way off so BIAB for a while yet!!!


----------



## poppa joe

Finger..
You are a Genius......
Now we have the NO SEW BIAB BAG......  
Cheers
PJ

Vote 1 the bucket....


----------



## Maxt

My bag only has stitching on the sides and for the drawstring. Makes me a lot more confident when removing it from the kettle.


As for the efficiency Pat, I thought that ending the mash (ie last five-ten minutes) on a slighlty higher temp had an effect on the efficiency? Is this incorrect?

Anyway I had to know what BIAB no#2 (APA) was like so I cracked a very green one yesterday. Absolutely sensational. Still undercarbed (but you get that with a beer that's a week and a half old!).

I will be patient and wait until it's grown up, but I had to see how my first AG, non disaster beer tasted.
:beer: 

It's all good Pat!


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

Good to hear Max .. No turning back now buddy..
:beer:


----------



## PistolPatch

Maxt said:


> As for the efficiency Pat, I thought that ending the mash (ie last five-ten minutes) on a slighlty higher temp had an effect on the efficiency? Is this incorrect?



I haven't heard of this Max but will find out for you today at vjval1975's brew day. I think it's going to be a biggie!

Glad to hear that brew is tasting delish already. Somtimes its good fun being impatient - lol.


----------



## PistolPatch

Sorry Max, I forgot to ask your question on Saturday - too busy drinking beer and having fun!

Have asked it now though...

I think where the efficiency thing you mention comes from is in traditional batch sparging and mash out temps. (It might also relate to fly sparging - not sure.) When you batch sparge, you want to raise the grain bed temp to above 74 on your first sparge preferably. Less than this and you will be extracting sweeter fuller flavours from the grain which you don't want if you are brewing a pils for example. The higher you can get this temp on your first sparge, the better as the grains 'rinse' better. The difference though is relatively minute.

With BIAB, the efficiency you get will be higher than other methods anyway - about 10% better. I also think that efficiency is an over-rated goal especially for those of us starting out. The only thing efficiency can do is save you a few cents or at worst a dollar or two on your brew. I think for us, there are more important things to 'tune up.'

The other thing is that people report their brewhouse efficiencies which is mis-leading as this varies with losses to trub in kettles etc.

As AndrewQLD explained to me, mash efficiency is a far more universal measure. In other words, "How many litres can you get into your kettle, at what gravity, at the beginning of your boil?" What happens after that has nothing to do woth grain extraction.

Excuse my usual long-winded answer.


Pat

Edit: I forgot to put the actual answer in...

If you wanted to improve your efficiency this way with BIAB, you would have to take the bag out, raise the temp of the sweet liquor to 74 degrees or above and then dump the bag back in. Given that BIAB is full-volume brewing, this may not even make a difference. Certainly not worth the effort.

Thanks to Rossco for all the info :super:


----------



## Maxt

As always, thanks Pat. :beer:


----------



## Phrak

PistolPatch said:


> If you wanted to improve your efficiency this way with BIAB, you would have to take the bag out, raise the temp of the sweet liquor to 74 degrees or above and then dump the bag back in. Given that BIAB is full-volume brewing, this may not even make a difference. Certainly not worth the effort.



Pat, I'm curious - Why would we have to remove the bag, raise the temp and dump it back in?

Why couldn't we just raise the temp with the bag in?

Tim.


----------



## PistolPatch

Howdy Tim,

Been a while - seems to be so much happening lately. Anyway, too much to say so better just answer the question...

Imagine that you are trying to brew a light bodied and dry beer. To do this you'll mash at say 64 degrees, even lower. If you leave the bag in whilst raising to boiling, the temp will slowly rise and therefore release the whatever it is, (enzymes or something!) that creates a sweeter, more full-bodied beer.

After you get to 74, all enzyme activity ceases so there is no danger of releasing unwanted thingos(!) that will make your beer too sweet or full-bodied. So, dumping the bag in then would be fine although I think it would acheive very little.

Full volume brewing has a unique advantage when it comes to 'rinsing' the grain. It's like putting 2 teaspoons of sugar into a full cup of coffee instead of a 1/4 of a cup. Much easier to dissolve.

The facts above I think are pretty right. The terminology? Probably not!

Like I say to all the girls, "I'm not a gynaecologist but I'll take a quick look at it for you."

Terminology has its place but only when you really know what you are talking about.

LOL
Pat

P.S. This post may well be edited by morning.


----------



## jimmysuperlative

PistolPatch said:


> Imagine that you are trying to brew a light bodied and dry beer. To do this you'll mash at say 64 degrees, even lower. If you leave the bag in whilst raising to boiling, the temp will slowly rise and therefore release the whatever it is, (enzymes or something!) that creates a sweeter, more full-bodied beer.



Holy sheep shite ...I didn't even think of this. I've just been cranking up the heat with the bag in there!! I don't really feel so bad because the beer tastes great anyway!

...but something to consider for next time, no doubt.  

I'm presently drinking BIAB No3 ...a Nelson Sauvin Summer Ale (based on Ross's recipe). I thought it was perfect until I read your post Pat!!!  

Oh well, just have to race through this keg now to make room for my next BIAB with the proper mash out procedure!!


----------



## PistolPatch

*A Correction and Some Other Intersting Stuff!*

I did the same thing Jimmy. In fact, the only reason I stopped doing it was that the bag was easier to lift out when cooler!

It's only recently I've learned that this can be a mistake but I still get conflicting advice here...

On reflection, I think that the speed with which BIAB raises the temperature from mash to 74 degrees is so fast compared to batch or fly-sparging that it is irrelevant. In fact, thinking from this angle, I KNOW it is irrelevant.

My advice above on removing the bag is *incorrect.*

The main thing is not to muck about between your mash temperature and 74 degrees. Understanding efficiency is of importance. Increasing efficiency should be of minor importance to craft brewers.

This temperature thingo has also come up in a thread I recently started A Guide To Mashing And Batch Sparging I think that the comments that the experienced brewers have added to the thread make for some interesting reading. While some of their advice is conflicting, it just goes to show that there is a lot of room for movement in our brewing.

*BIAB versus Batch-Sparging*

This arvo I had a beer with vjval1974. Brad started AG the same time as I did. He brews very good beer and loves experimenting. He currently batch sparges but is quite keen on switching to BIAB as I have done. Before he does this though, we are going to brew and ferment identical beers (except one BIABed and one batch-sparged) and send them off to a few judges for comment. Whilst myself and others can't taste the difference, I think the exercise will be a re-assuring one for those who are a little unsure of trying a new method.

We also have several other experiments planned. Exciting stuff!

Finally, Phrak. Have you done your BIAB brew yet?

Cheers
Pat


----------



## WildaYeast

Glad to hear you guys are thinking of doing two identical batches -- I thought last week that we had missed a perfect opportunity.


----------



## Morrie0069

Morning all,

Just started my 2nd BIAB using AndrewQLD's Coopers Pale Ale Clone recipe Link. I'm also using a Safale yeast packet, as I didn't get a chance to culture any CPA. Esky has 30 litres and was at 70 degrees when I poured the grain in. Is now at 68 degrees and smells lovely! I had made a slight error when I ordered the grain, which I found out last night. Instead of getting 30 grams of teh dark crystal, I ordered 3Kg - a slight difference! So now I have 2.97 Kg of dark crystal in an airtight container, which I'm wondering what I can brew to use it in the next couple of weeks - ideas welcomed  

I haven't tasted the first AG yet, but it has been in the keg for 10 days now (primed with sugar), so I'll be putting it in the fridge next week and hopefully tasting it next weekend. :chug: 

Query on the vac pack bags that Ross uses, should they stay nice and tight or do they loosen up over a few weeks? I guess it depends on weather conditions and humidty, etc.? I was going to hold off on my 2nd AG till I had a larger pot, but last night I noticed the bags were looser, so I panicked and thought it was better to use them ASAP in case any air had got in. 

I'll let you know how the day goes if I get a chance  

Cheers,

Morrie


----------



## Ross

Hi Morrie,

Bummer on the crystal over order mate, sorry I didn't spot it, I'm usually pretty good at picking up mistakes; but it'll keep fine in an airtight container - Being a speciallty malt it's storabillity once cracked is pretty good.
The vacuum packs will loosen up over time, due to plastic not being the perfect air barrier - but if kept cool & dark they will again last months without any problems.

Looking forward to hearing how the day goes (take some pics if you can) & how your previous AG turned out..

Cheers Ross


----------



## Morrie0069

Left over crsytal is safely stored in airtight container in the pantry now. Thanks for the phone call Ross, it certainly made me feel better. Another example of your great customer service  

First boil is underway. I'm definitely not doing another AG without a larger pot - the amount of time taken up is a PITA and could be put to better use - enjoying other brews  

Off to check boil and look in on my 10 week old boy - who says you can't do both!

Cheers,

Morrie


----------



## Screwtop

PistolPatch said:


> If you leave the bag in whilst raising to boiling, the temp will slowly rise and therefore release the whatever it is, (enzymes or something!) .
> 
> After you get to 74, all enzyme activity ceases so there is no danger of releasing unwanted thingos(!)



Yep,


----------



## Morrie0069

My 2nd AG is in the fermenter! The gravity was a bit lower than I wanted at 1034, but I suspect that's because I had to do a shorter boil with the 2nd pot, 60 min instead of 90, so I finished with about 26 litres of wort instead of the 23 I wanted. Oh well, we'll see where it finishes at, but I am stoked to have another AG brew on the go! The yeast was pitched at 23:00 last night and has started doing its thing this morning.  

Lessons learned from this brew - 

1. My boiling pot is a 20L aliminium one with a nice shiny (slippery) lid. During the boil I had it sitting slightly ajar on top of the pot to help maintain a nice rolling boil. When I turned my back on it I heard the sound of liquid on hot plate, and quickly turned to find the lid had slid across to cover the whole pot and wort was pouring over the sides. I found placing a piece of wet cloth over the edge of the pot to stop the lid from sliding worked great!

2. Another reason for using the lid, was to stop the drips that I found condensing on the extraction filter on the stove above the pot. I remebered reading about this happening to someone else a while ago, but forgot about it, that is until I saw it happening to me. Also a good reason to move the brewery outdoors, which my wife has agreed to, especially since she hates the smell of the whole process. Hey, it works out great for me, as she's offered to buy me a burner for Christmas, as well as a few other bits and pieces - Ross, expect an email from her in the coming weeks!  

Cheers Morrie

:beer:


----------



## Ross

Morrie,

congrats on your 2nd AG, & great news that the minister of finances is happy for you to build your system - amazing how women (in general) don't like the smell of brewing.
If your beer is short of it's OG target, just simply add some DME to the fermenter - I always have some on hand for such occaisions. 

cheers Ross


----------



## Morrie0069

Thanks Ross, I'll go and pour some into the fermenter now.  Just took a reading and it was up to 1042 - added 500g of DME.


----------



## Linz

Just a quick note PP that Ive taken on board the BIAB and made up a 'liner' for the HERMS mash tun and it's flowing well with 55% raw wheat and oats!!.
Only difference is that the wife stiched in Tule in the bottom of the bag...


----------



## PistolPatch

[Edit: Just saw Linz's post - I'm amazed! See below.]

A little bit of news for you but firstly...

*Morrie* - Thanks for taking the time to post the details of your brewing. The more detail for newer brewers, the better. I've written a bit already tonight on volumes and efficiency so I better not re-write it. Check out the posts I've done tonight though as these will answer quite a few of your questions. Some not answered are...

With Ross's vac-packs I have found that they either hold their vaccuum or they suddenly do not. I haven't found any gradual collapse. I think that what can happen is that the sharp end of a grain pierces the plastic on occassion. I've had 2 do this out of about 12 packs. I order 2 or more brews at a time so this has never been an issue - I just brew that one first. Even if they do collapse, you still have a heap of time up your sleeve so no worries.

The Lid: Covering your boil with a lid worries me a bit. One post I wrote tonight mentioned it but only in one sentence and in a different context. Although it doesn't matter that much when we're starting out, the goal should be to be able to boil with no lid - evaporating off stuff is what the boil is about, not containing the evaporatives. Does that make sense? With you boiling under the extraction filter, you are obviously compromising the correct way. So often brewing is about compromise! (When you move outside you'll be dealing with other issues!)

Definitely go the larger pot too. There are SO many advantages.

*Screwtop* Just saw your post whilst scrolling up to look at Morrie's comments - as always, you crack me up!

*Linz* My God, Linz, you are AHB Member No 74 and have been here forever! Your posting here makes us newbee AG'ers not feel so crazy with our experiments. Thanks a heap mate! Would you possibly have any pics of what you have done? I'm sure that in 4 years time I would have been totally set in my ways and lack any ability to try something new. I think your post above may prevent this!

*News* After writing the above and seeing Linz had posted, I nearly forgot my news! Brad (vjval1974) and I did a side by side brew today - batch versus BIAB. We did intend to do two brews but we ran out of gas, it was windy, we had a beer at 9am etc, etc. Anyway we brewed Batz's Kin Kin Ale which we called 'Far kin Ale' as it was brewed far away from Kin Kin. We are going to do one more Batch vs BIAB brew before the QLD swap where we'll have the two beers on display. We thought we better do 2 brews because it is very hard to brew the same beer twice from identical equipment let alone the same. Should be interesting to see if one method gives a more preferable beer or not. We'll send some off to some judges as well.

Brad brews very good beer so blame him for my long posts tonight. Crikey! After talking about Linz I just checked. This is my 997th post and too many of them are about an A4 long!

It's all good fun!
Pat


----------



## Morrie0069

Hey Pat,

Not sure I have enough time tonight to get through your lengthy posts! :lol: Might save them for when I'm at work tomorrow!

Yeah, the compromise was between letting the brew evaporate as it should versus letting a rain of greasy stuff fall into the brew :unsure: I'm definitely looking forward to getting outside, and with the wife's go ahead to buy the burner, etc. for xmas, I'm not too far away.

Thought you'd been quiet this weekend - thought you may have bribed one of AHB member's sisters to go out on a date! Gopod to hear the time had been spent more wisely :chug: 

Cheers,

Morrie


----------



## PistolPatch

Morrie0069 said:


> Thought you'd been quiet this weekend - thought you may have bribed one of AHB member's sisters to go out on a date! Good to hear the time had been spent more wisely :chug:



I did write a reply to that comment last night but thought I better delete it as it was way off topic and way too long - lol. The only on-topic thing I had to say was the following...

Get an adjustable regulator if you can. This makes the burner throw a better and more consistent flame.

Have fun reading AHB today at work!

 
Pat


----------



## matti

Wow that is a long thread and i've attempted to read all of it, but I have surely missed some or forgot half of it in three days of sittings. :blink: 
B.I.A.B. Sound like dunking a large tea bag full of grain in hot water.
After an hour or so, drain and rinse the grain in the bag and off to kettle for an hour.
Well not quite, but in principal, making tea leaving the tea bag in hot water but in this case beer.
No not a case of beer... anyway,,,

When Brewing ag:
One is meant to dough in the brew liqour/water at certain temperatures.
This is to ensure that the grain get fully saturated and disolve the sugar in it so that you get a full conversion. 
This way you release the "godis" in the grain and avoid dough balls, especially when you cannot always achieve perfectly milled grain all the time.

Obviously there are different methods and temperatures for different recipes and so on.

The biggest drawback I find in this method is, that you don't really do these things properly.

It appears more like in BIAB you compromise this.

I am not knocking BIAB because it is a great way to build up for the real thing, and I hope I haven't started an argument like chill vs  no chill 
matti


----------



## PistolPatch

A great post Matti,

I have a few probs with the BIAB Guide. I want to resolve them before I re-write it though as it takes a fair whack of time. Basically, I'd like to make it simpler and pass on some 'tested' results which a few of us are currently working on. This will give more confidence in the method which is by no means a short-cut.

You mentioned that BIAB may not be doing things properly which is a very valid question. I don't want to answer that in full now as it's getting late and I'd prefer to be able to give you some unbiassed results which you will get soon and more so as more people brew with BIAB.

All I'll say for now is I am starting to suspect that BIAB is a better way of brewing. As you learn different methods of brewing you realise they are basically all based on compromise and then you start to think that, logically, why wouldn't BIAB actually be a better way?

The job of the masher is to rinse sugars from the grain at a certain temp or varying temps. BIAB can do this and unlike any other method, it can do it evenly. 

The problem with BIAB is that, at present, it can only handle doing a 23 litre batch. Lifting a heavier bag from a ketle would be a challenge and one that I'm sure either we or our 'brewing in a bucket' friends will solve
in the near future.

I certainly hate not doing things properly. Ask people who know me! Personally I'm sure that BIAB is not a compromise method but maybe could even prove to be a better method. There's no reason that I can see as to why not.

A little more time and tasting will tell and we're working on it!

Oh! And doughballs are not a problem. I'm starting to think they are a myth as I have never seen one when either batching or BIABing. Go figure!

Would love to write more on this Matti but for now I hope that is enough to quell some fears.

Spot ya,
Pat


----------



## Linz

Heres the pics of my 'version' of the bag.......

Its more of a filtration enhancement more than the "Traditional" bag


----------



## PistolPatch

Thanks for taking the time to post the pics Linz. The tule at the bottom is a coarser material than the voille isn't it? Finally, has it made things better for you in the HERMS?

* BIAB versus Batch Test*

vjval1974 (Brad) and I have just done two identical recipes, two batched and 2 in the bag. Brad will post up what we did sometime in the next week. We'll be sending off several bottles for some detailed opinion and, if the QLD Swap guys don't mind, asking them to taste the four resulting beers and seeing if they're are any differences and what they might be. So, it should only be a few weeks before we hear some sort of more controlled feedback.

Just one further clarification to my ramble on Monday to Matti. At this stage I can't see any logical reason why BIAB won't prove to be just as good as batching. Already we know that the efficiency is higher and the simplicity level easier. The main limitation I can see at this stage, as already mentioned, is the weight of the bag if you did a double-batch. Too heavy!

I'll now keep my mouth shut until we get the feedback. Mind you, for me to do this would probably mean not having a beer for two weeks - lol!

Pat


----------



## Morrie0069

Just a thought - and so early in the morning! If doing a double batch, would it be simple enough to use 2 bags? That way they are no heavier, so lifting isn't an issue. I guess it would come down to the size of your pot and if you have enough room to fit 2 bags - maybe use velcro to join the 2 bags together on the top seam (where the draw strings are) so the bags sit nicely in the pot. Not sure if it's feasible, but just an idea.  

Cheers,

Morrie


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

good thinking 99..... oh 0069..  lol

just need to "find" that bigger pot...

:beer:


----------



## Morrie0069

Thanks Bunyip - unfortunately "Morrie" was already in use when I joined, although I have never seen them on here :blink:


----------



## Ross

Pat,

If you want to do a true BIAB comparison on my system you are more than welcome. We'll do a double brew day with everything identical, using the same equipment, but doing one in the bag. With the hoist on my brew stand, we can tie up the bag & simply lower the kettle to drain. I'll then ferment them both side by side in the same brew fridge & give them the exact same treatment. I'd be keen to try a true comparison, as this potentially could make my brew day far easier...

cheers Ross...


----------



## Brad_G

Ross, 

Thats exactly what pat and I have done on sunday. Everything was exact. All results were recorded. The fermenters are at the same temp in the same place. 

Although, repeating the procedure many times will produce more consistant results. I think it would be a great idea to do the same at your place. Maybe I could throw another hat in the ring by bringing my gear up and brewing batch sparge style also. We can then see if there is differences between my equipment and yours. 

I like it. I like it alot. Bring on the testing. 

Brad


----------



## Adamt

Such a lovely and scientifically practical excuse to make and drink more beer. I think some of us Adelaide guys should test the effects of low humidity on the results between batch sparging and BIABing!


----------



## Phrak

Wow, there's been a heap happening on this thread since I last posted. I feel out of touch  

Pat, (as you know) my first AG BIAB brew went reasonably well. I didn't save the PM I sent you, so perhaps you could post the (edited!) version here please?

Oh, and something else I just remembered - I took some nice high-res photos for the BIAB manual.  I'll crop & email them through to Pat for updating.

Tim.


----------



## Ross

vjval1974 said:


> Ross,
> 
> Thats exactly what pat and I have done on sunday. Everything was exact. All results were recorded. The fermenters are at the same temp in the same place.
> 
> Although, repeating the procedure many times will produce more consistant results. I think it would be a great idea to do the same at your place. Maybe I could throw another hat in the ring by bringing my gear up and brewing batch sparge style also. We can then see if there is differences between my equipment and yours.
> 
> I like it. I like it alot. Bring on the testing.
> 
> Brad



Brad, 

Sorry, I thought you brewed side by side on your respective set up's, I didn't realise you did it all on the same setup - cool  

Still, as you say another excuse for a beer :beer: 

cheers Ross


----------



## Brad_G

Ross, 

I didnt make myself clear sorry. We did use our own set ups. Used the Batch Sparge method, and Patch used the BIAB. We had the same recipe, we ensured the same mash temp, volumes, and OG's with all the same hop additions and weights. We brewed our beers side by side, at the same time although patch's was considerably faster because of the time it takes to recirculate and sparge etc. When they are finished (fully) fermenting, it will be good to do some triangle testing on the beers to see the differences. Check the new topic i posted called "adventurous brewers wanted" in The Common Ground forum. 

Im really keen to do a brew up at your place anytime. I learn heaps up there, so if you want to sort out a day with patch, count me in (as long as the reunation IPA is on tap - :chug: . 

Sorry for the confusion mate. 

Brad


----------



## Maxt

Just finished mash on BIAB number 3.
Efficiency into boiler is 80% this time. Woohoo!

I am redoing my first BIAB which was mashed at 60 deg by mistake. All good this time!

Roll on boil!


----------



## Phrak

Maxt said:


> Just finished mash on BIAB number 3.
> Efficiency into boiler is 80% this time. Woohoo!
> 
> I am redoing my first BIAB which was mashed at 60 deg by mistake. All good this time!
> 
> Roll on boil!


 Max, well done 
What'd you change this time from the first two to raise your efficiency?
Tim.


----------



## matti

> I am redoing my first BIAB which was mashed at 60 deg by mistake. All good this time!
> MAXT



Please explain :blink: 

Are you reusing you grain????

More likely your are running the same schedule but at corrects temps.

Really intrigued by all this AG in BIAB.

Keep it up!

Though you you haven't won me over yet it is very interesting.

especially the big claims on efficiencies, though it is the flavour we are after..
matti..


----------



## Morrie0069

I have just poured my first AG (a Pilsener) that I made and here it is





All I can say is OMG, this is simply the best beer I have made by a mile! It was kegged on the 8th, and has been in the fridge for about a week now, naturally carbonated. Hmmm, I think my hobby is about to become even more of an obsession!  :beerbang: :chug: BTW - don't mind about the lack of clarity yet, just happy to have cracked teh cherry!

Thanks to everyone on this forum, pity there is only 1 keg of this, so unfortunately not enough to go around!

Cheers,

Morrie - A VERY happy brewer


----------



## Maxt

This time I marked out measurement on the outside of the kettle (15, 20, 35L etc). This way I knew exactly what volume into kettle I was getting (which I was just guessing before).

I mashed in with 38L, ended up with 30L after pulling the bag, which was my volume into kettle measurement. 

I took a hydrometer measurement and it came out to 80.1%, using beersmith.

My mash was also at 67 for the first 20 mins, then 69 for the other 70 mins, which was different from the first go where I went from 60-80deg!

I also remembered to add the chocolate this time  .

Proof is in the pudding though, so we'll have to taste it to see if it's the business.

Cheers


----------



## PistolPatch

Morrie0069 said:


> I have just poured my first AG (a Pilsener)
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Morrie - A VERY happy brewer



Morrie, it looks as though there has been quite some activity in this thread today but what can be more important than your post?

I can't believe you cracked it with a pils!

I'm having a lowly 2.5% Schwartzbier (bloody good) to celebrate with you now. Posts like yours truly make my day. 

Your first AG is an event to be celebrated. Don't hide it in this thread! Go and start a new one, "My First AG -A Pils!" If you're scared of starting a new thread (like I am sometimes) say that I said you had to!

Morrie, the enthusiasm that you and the other guys show here is truly infectious. Every beer should be infected in this manner.

Congratulations :beer: ,
Pat


----------



## PistolPatch

Adamt said:


> Such a lovely and scientifically practical excuse to make and drink more beer.



Look out Brad! Adam has seen through the plan already!!!!

I've been up since sparrows and there has been way too much happening in this thread today. I thinkl I better reply to anything I'm meant to over the weekend. Very interesting/good stuff written here today. (Hope Morrie does his new post :beerbang: )

Also hope that you guys will have a read of this thread and participate in it. It suits those with an adventurous spirit which I think pretty much everyone participating in this thread has - thank goodness!

Spot ya,
Pat


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

With my "pot in pot" mini system the wort needs to be recirculated much like with a normal mash tun as the SS mesh lets plenty of dust through. 

Does any dust penetrate the voile bag, or is the wort crystal clear? 

Yes, I'm using a mash tun this weekend, but with one potential difference...a bag inside it...can't get a stuck sparge using a bag B) 

PZ.


----------



## Steve

Fingerlickin_B said:


> With my "pot in pot" mini system the wort needs to be recirculated much like with a normal mash tun as the SS mesh lets plenty of dust through.
> 
> Does any dust penetrate the voile bag, or is the wort crystal clear?
> 
> Yes, I'm using a mash tun this weekend, but with one potential difference...a bag inside it...can't get a stuck sparge using a bag B)
> 
> PZ.




a bag as well as a falsie?


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Steve said:


> a bag as well as a falsie?



Just a thought Steve...not sure yet


----------



## Steve

Fingerlickin_B said:


> Steve said:
> 
> 
> 
> a bag as well as a falsie?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just a thought Steve...not sure yet
Click to expand...



so many ideas and only 2 days in a weekend :angry:


----------



## 3GumsBrewing

PistolPatch said:


> I reckon getting a bag sewn up in the Swiss Voile is the way to go. Anyone that has a sewing machine will be able to do it for you really quickly.



Hi Pat,

After reading this thread and also discovering that ND Brewing is literally around the corner from my house I am inspired to get away from kits and masterbrews and try this wonderful BIAB.

The brother in-law and I would like to give this ago next weekend if we are allowed! However I just have a question about the bag.
Do you have any specific dimensions, we have roped in the M.I.L. to sew it for us but she needs the dims to get started?

Any ideas?

Cheers
DK


----------



## Phrak

I bought 2 lineal meters of white Swiss Violle. This made two very large bags to fit a 50L keg-shaped kettle plus two large hop-socks.

I also got me mum to to sow a ringlet thing around the top of the bag and threaded some rope through.

One bag, double-overlocked, was more than strong enough to lift, carry and hold nearly 9kg of wet grain.

HTH 
Tim.

BTW, Gerard & Janelle from ND Brewing are excellent. Just don't ask him to sell you Polyclar or similar


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Was your wort clear Tim?  

PZ.


----------



## kfarrell

Excuse my complete ignorance, but I've noticed an ongoing theme in this method. The finished product is low in alcohol, around the 3% mark.

So here's the ignorant part, 3% seem like a similar number to a kit brew done with no added fermentables. Could the answer be as simple as ading a kilo of fermentables to the finished wort befor pitching the yeast?

Sorry if that's a stupid idea. Just thinking aloud.


----------



## DJR

No, PP just likes em light.


----------



## hughman666

Kieran Farrell said:


> Excuse my complete ignorance, but I've noticed an ongoing theme in this method. The finished product is low in alcohol, around the 3% mark.



my BIABs have been easily hitting the 5% mark. the principle is basically the same as with traditional AG, just the method that is different.


----------



## Phrak

Fingerlickin_B said:


> Was your wort clear Tim?
> PZ.


Nope, not by a long-shot. Very murky even after two weeks in the No-Chill cube.

But, I racked it into a keg last-night after nearly 2 weeks on Primary. The first maybe 500mls or so were a bit murky in the line, but it came clear after that. I added two teaspoons (about 3gms) of Polyclar to the keg just to make sure, and started chilling it down to fridge temp getting ready to crash-carbonate in a few days once the Polyclar has settled.

I had asked the grain bloke to give it a bit of a coarser crack than normal, but he talked me out of it somehow. Perhaps there really was too much grain dust for the bag brew?

Tim.


----------



## Linz

Fingerlickin_B said:


> Steve said:
> 
> 
> 
> a bag as well as a falsie?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just a thought Steve...not sure yet
Click to expand...



I have the falsie and bag(see my previous pics). I found the falsie Ive got is a bit small, and it flexes too much



davekate said:


> PistolPatch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I reckon getting a bag sewn up in the Swiss Voile is the way to go. Anyone that has a sewing machine will be able to do it for you really quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Pat,
> 
> After reading this thread and also discovering that ND Brewing is literally around the corner from my house I am inspired to get away from kits and masterbrews and try this wonderful BIAB.
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> Cheers
> DK
Click to expand...



Wait till DK finds out about the Hills Brewers Guild!! also around the corner....


----------



## The King of Spain

Noticed in Bunnings yesterday 41x41x41cm nylon fine mesh collapsable storage container. Perfect for BIAB. Easy to clean, feels strong and only $8


----------



## PistolPatch

Excuse the delayed (and very quick for me!) replies to the below. If I missed any question specifically for me, let me know.

*Morrie* - I think using 2 bags if you had to do a double-batch is a great idea. Your velcro idea just made me think of maybe even having loops (tags) along the top seam and feed a rod through them alternately so as the rod lies midway across the top of the kettle while mashing if that makes sense. Good on you for posting up your first AG too.

*Rossco* - Brew day at your place sounds fun. Am starting to worry about finding the time to do it before moving though. Mind you one more trip to the Carbrook Brewery is pretty mandatory even if it always seems to turn into an all-day or night event!

*Phrak* - Still got your PM! Will post it up early this evening. Can't believe you didn't post at the time - lol.

*davekate* - Hope you got the bag sorted and managed to do your first brew this weekend. Will look forward to hearing how you went.

*deaves* - Thanks for the heads up on the Bunnings bag. I'd be fascinated to have a look at it.

Spot ya!


----------



## Thirsty Boy

This whole BIAB thing sounded to good to be true, so I had to have a go.

Today I brewed up a 10 litre batch of a scottish 60 schiling and I did it in a bag!!

A 16litre stock pot, a slighyly abused cake cooling rack and a circle of voile curtain material... done

I've go to say it was one of the most stress free brewdays I have ever had. I like it, I like it a lot.

From other peoples experiences of BIAB I worked on 75% efficiency, and bloody near hit my numbers on the head. Shooting for 10litres @ 1.033 and got 10.5 @ 1.0325. To be perfectly honest, thats the closest I have ever come to getting it exactly right, and on my first BIAB.

Cut an hour and a half off my brewday, but thats probably mainly due to the smaller batch size. Next time I will take it out of the kitchen down to my proper brewery, and there I will use a real chiller instead of the sink and things are a little better set up, then I think that I'll save even more time.

I'm not ready to give up my mash tun yet, but if this beer turns out well, and I can't see why it wont, then I plan to explore the whole BIAB thing a bit more thoroughly. I can certainly imagine that the day might come whe my mash tun reverts to being no more than a spare eski.

Pistol and all you other BIAB pioneers out there. Thanks. This was a lot of fun, and might just revolutionise my whole homebrewing practise.

Thirsty


----------



## PistolPatch

Thirsty Boy said:


> I've go to say it was one of the most stress free brewdays I have ever had. I like it, I like it a lot.



Very impressed Thirsty!

Also very pleased to hear all went well and that you enjoyed it. Thanks for giving the detailed feedback too. You did well to get close to your targets with such a small pot but the main thing I'm impressed with is that you had the sense of adventure to give this a go despite being already set-up. How good is that?

Taste results of a BIAB versus batch test will be out next Sunday and should give others quite some confidence in the method.

Many cheers to you Thirsty :beerbang: 

Hey Phrak?

Man, I had a little accident on my computer. I discovered that you can archive PMs and so promptly did it. Then the shift key started playing up on my computer and permanently deleted my entire AHB folder. Whoops! I've had a good bash at reovering it but no luck yet. So the record of your first BIAB has probably dissapeared into cyberspace forever. Agh! Anyway, how did it taste mate? And, when do we get pics of your super-strong bag?


----------



## poppa joe

Friend of mine is going to give me a program to recover deleted 
files ....next week... he came here today ..but left it at home...
He tried it and got back files...
PJ


----------



## The King of Spain

[Taste results of a BIAB versus batch test will be out next Sunday and should give others quite some confidence in the method]

PistolPatch

Are the results going to be posted in this thread? I am keen to see the results. The only additional step to an extract brew is that you have to mash and have (in my case) a bigger volume to cool. So why isn't every one doing it?

Far as I can see there is only a little extra effort. Ive got a cooler ready to go, ouch - copper prices up 400% or somthing over last year.

Ive got two batches from Ross ready to go. Was going to do first one tonight but time got me.

Cheers


----------



## PistolPatch

Poppa - Would love the file once you get it. I used to have one of those but can't find it!

Deaves - Will post a link to the results in this thread for sure. You are absolutely right on the BIAB only involving the mash as the extra step above extract. I think a lot of the newer AG'ers are doing BIAB from what I can gather so that's great. Not all who are doing it post here. Most seem to have jumped straight from kits to BIAB without going via extract. Not sure what the extract brewers think of the process?

Good luck with the first one Deaves and please let us know how it all goes.

Thanks,
Pat


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Pistol,

I thought that it was only polite to contribute some feedback on my BIAB session to the place where the process was concieved and developed. If only to say thanks to you and the others who have put in the hard yards blazing the trail for the rest of us to follow.

I actually made a conscious effort to NOT use any of my existing brewing equipment for the BIAB brew (well, sanitiser and hydrometer etc aside) because I wanted to see just how little Eq you really need to get into AG.

I'm teaching a mate how to brew on New Years Day and had written him out a couple of pages worth of instructions on how to build all the gear before I come up there. Now instead of a couple of pages, the list is only going to be a couple of lines.

1 - 1 pot (35+ litres) and a round cake rack to fit
2 - 2 meters of Voile curtain material
3 - A wort chiller (just dont like the idea of no chill I'm afraid)
4 - A good thermometer and; well...... nothing really

He's already a kit brewer so he has all the stirring, measuring sanitising gear already. How good is that!! Why wouldn't you go AG??

See ya

Thirsty


----------



## bonj

PistolPatch,

I'm new to the forum, so I've just discovered this thread. I noticed that you want better photos for your instructions. I have a decent amount of photography gear, and I'm more than happy to shoot some new images. Photography is my other main interest, so let me know if you want to organise something. 

-Bonj


----------



## Paleman

Im trying to nut out the BIAB method. I have read as much info as i can find.

One step i dont understand is......theres no sparge, so how does one get ones efficiency around the mark ? Thus the appropriate SG. do you use more grain than normal ?

PP, i'm not knocking the method, as i have never brewed allgrain. But i thought the sparge was a very important step. :huh: or am i missing something.

Anyway, as a beginner, if it makes my first allgrain easier, and still taste great....i'm a willing participant.


----------



## PistolPatch

*Thirsty* - I love it when people are polite! Many thanks. Am really looking forward to more feedback from you after you taste the results. Feedback is especially valuable when someone has tried both methods. 

*Bonj* - Mate, thanks for your kind offer. Unfortunately I'm moving to Perth in a few weeks so no more brewing for me in QLD. Agh! We are having a major drinkathon this Saturday if you want to attend though. If so, PM me or post back here.

*Paleman* - Your post is really good as it points out a flaw in the BIAB Guide I hadn't spotted as yet and will need to think on some more. I wrote the guide as a simple way for people to start at AG straight from kits with little prior knowledge of AG (could well have failed in this area as well!) I never thought of people who have too much knowledge but have not had the hands-on - i.e. people like you and me!

I know exactly where you are coming from and am really quite glad that there is at least someone else besides me that makes a concerted effort at studying their brewing. The problem with this concerted study is that it leads you away from the basic principles and often into the quite inaccurate bullshit where I have been. (I should probably edit that last sentence but it's been a long day and it is correct. Rarely do people in their posts on AHB specify whether they are batch or fly-sparging. THese are two totally different methods. No wonder us readers get bewidered!)

Let's answer your question...

The only purpose of mashing and sparging grain is to extract sugars. End of story. I mentioned this maybe 20 or 30 posts above but following a thread like this is a big ask. I promise I will summarise it in a new thread once the taste results come out next week.

Traditional methods are reliant on trying to extract the maximum amount of sugars with minimal capital cost. This leads to compromise on vessel shape, time etc. Hence, people use a small amount of water first (mashing) to get a fair whack of sugar out of the grain then add more water later (sparging) to get a little more from the grain. This more water later bit, in a commercial brewery, is done in a specialised lauter tun. (I was surprised to find that many top brewers on this forum did not even know there was a difference between a mash tun and lauter tun in a commercial brewery.) The simple reason thay have two such vessels is economy though I am still unsure as to what the economics are - I suspect a time thing mainly.

Traditional batch and fly-sparging follows in the above footsteps.

BIAB is a form of what a few of us now call, 'full-volume brewing.' You add a heap of water (mash plus sparge water) all at once. To me, this makes more sense. (You will read things about a thick and thin mash producing different beers but I really do wonder if this is more irrelevant twaddle - it definitely is at the beginner to intermediate stage and should most certainly be ignored by those new to AG.) Your mash and sparge are done in one meaning all sugars are extracted evenly.

Does that make any sense Paleman? It's been a long day but hopefully something I wrote is of value. If not, please ask questions. It will help me tidy up or create a whole new BIAB Guide.

Spot ya,
Pat


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Hey Pat, 

Although I couldn't resist the lure of a mash tun at "the right price", I'm still inspired whenever I check in on this thread  

My major concern, as you may have noticed based on previous posts (aside from my "disaster" posts) is mash temerature control. 

Well...I've got a 40L esky here and as this is "Brew In A Bag", not "All In One Vessel" I figure my idea applies...mash in a bag in the esky! :super: 

Now, as my first full AG batch isn't even in the fermenter yet (still in the no-chill jerry), I'll probably wunna' see how that turns out and use the tun again soon, but I'm keen to do both...yes, how better to up the output than employ two mashing methods at once aye? B) 

Plus, I love tinkering  

PZ.


----------



## The King of Spain

Yeah, Ive wondered about efficiency too Krausen. Pistol, I was going to modify a 30 litre drum or similar with a stainless steel mesh base to use instead of a bag. WOuld be easy to clean and would also allow you to pick it up and rinse some of the sugars through it. Any thoughts??


----------



## Paleman

Thanks for your detailed reply PP. Much appreciated.

I like the term " Full Volume Brewing ".......sounds to me like it does simplify things.


----------



## The King of Spain

First BIAB away. No problems. I was a little worried about efficiency so I made sure that I had 23 litres at mash out to test gravity. It came in at 1.036 (was targeting 1.044) so I added some DME to achieve my target. So there you have it - still have not done my first AG. 

I was not going to all that effort to do a low alcohol beer. Took me less time to cool 23 litres with a cooler than 15 in the tub which is how I did my last extract. I'm not going to fluff about with trying to extract more sugar with sparging (is that what you call it?) I'll just add another kg of grain. Thanks all, esp Pistol and Ross who even helped tailor my recepie

By the way Fingerlickin I had a bag the same size as my 50L boiler and still didn't get an OG much different to yours. Think the sugar was just removed with the bag...


----------



## PostModern

PistolPatch said:


> The only purpose of mashing and sparging grain is to extract sugars. End of story.



That is a bit of an oversimplification.

For starters, malted grain has no sugars to extract. 
Mashing utilises the enzymes in the grain to covert the starches into sugars. That is the purest and plainest purpose of mashing. 

Lautering and sparging extract these sugars from the mash. There is much more going on than a simple rehydration and extraction. The liquor:grist ratio has a large impact on the quality of the wort. There are lots of sugars, dextrins, proteins, lipids, etc created and changed in the process. Sure the composition and relative quanities of these compounds may not matter too much to the homebrewer who just wants beer out of the other end, but there are measurable differences in the beer just by changing your l:g ratio by .5

I'm not saying that BIAB doesn't work, the evidence here is absolutely in favour of the fact that it does, but to dismiss the traditional 3 vessel homebrew rig as completely unnecessary is pretty dismissive of valid and well established techniques. Obviously for those hoping to take a shortcut into "from scratch" homebrew, BIAB is a valid technique, but please PP, get your facts straight. You have probably read more on mashing than me by now, so take into account the reasons so many of us still do things the hard way.


----------



## Doogiechap

Morrie0069 said:


> 10359.IPB[/ATTACH]
> and
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just a $16 glass frypan lid from Kmart.
> Just a thought if you head in that direction in the future
> Cheers
> Doug


----------



## PistolPatch

*PoMo* I was being a naughty AHB poster last night - lol. Too many hours working in the QLD sun yesterday. The fact that it took me about 80 paragraphs to answer Paleman's question is a dead give-away. I'd be interested to try some different water to grist ratios to see the differences. I know AndrewQLD did a full volume brew and didn't notice any negative results so I'm assuming it is irrelevant to beginners or intermediate AG'ers. I didn't quite put it like that last night though - lol. Thanks for your correction. Saved me editing my long ramble!

*Finger* One thing you can do if you have the esky is muck around with the liquor to grist ratios mentioned by PoMo. Another advantage I suppose is you could be mashing one brew while boiling the other if you did 2 brews in one day. As for the heat loss with BIAB, I don't have a problem with it maybe becasue my pot has a thick base. Also giving a quick burst of heat is no trouble for me. Knew you'd miss us and come back to post here!

*deaves* Can't quite picture what you mean by the drum with mesh. I might need a bit more detail before I can offer any thoughts eg Are you boiling in the drum etc? Alternatively just wait until next time I have too many beers - lol.

Just saw your second post. Congrats mate! Glad to hear all was easy. If you're using Beersmith try and download the correct grain databases so the program will more accurately predict your efficiency. By the way, did you have extra left over above the 23 litres by the way? Inother words, how much was left in your kettle? And looks as though you forked out for the copper eh? Good stuff. Look forward to hearing your first taste test deaves. Also, when did you actually start brewing? Just wondering how quickly you got to do your first AG. Well done mate!

*Doug* Very nice and simple idea!

Spot ya,
Pat (Sober tonight!)


----------



## Thirsty Boy

PostModern said:


> That is a bit of an oversimplification.
> 
> For starters, malted grain has no sugars to extract.
> Mashing utilises the enzymes in the grain to covert the starches into sugars. That is the purest and plainest purpose of mashing.
> 
> Lautering and sparging extract these sugars from the mash. There is much more going on than a simple rehydration and extraction. The liquor:grist ratio has a large impact on the quality of the wort. There are lots of sugars, dextrins, proteins, lipids, etc created and changed in the process. Sure the composition and relative quanities of these compounds may not matter too much to the homebrewer who just wants beer out of the other end, but there are measurable differences in the beer just by changing your l:g ratio by .5
> 
> I'm not saying that BIAB doesn't work, the evidence here is absolutely in favour of the fact that it does, but to dismiss the traditional 3 vessel homebrew rig as completely unnecessary is pretty dismissive of valid and well established techniques. Obviously for those hoping to take a shortcut into "from scratch" homebrew, BIAB is a valid technique, but please PP, get your facts straight. You have probably read more on mashing than me by now, so take into account the reasons so many of us still do things the hard way.



I both agree and maybe a little disagree with you Post Modern. I'm not really sure which yet. Maybe neither?

Some musings on mash thickness and brewing processes.

Mash thickness mainly ( I know not only) effects the stability of Beta Amalayse at higher temps. A thicker mash helps the Betas to function at higher temps because they work more effectively when they are close to their substrate. In a thin mash they are more vunerable to higher temperatures. The effect of this on BIAB might mean that your worts will have different levels of fermentability than they would have at thicker L:G ratios given the same mash temps... so for BIAB you wouldn't use the same mash temps, no more than you would if you were changing your L:G from 2 to 3.5 in a "standard" 2, 3, 4 or 5 vessle system. You would need to compensate in both cases.

This would leave BIAB vunerable to producing less fermentable worts if brewers aren't careful with thier mash temps. On the other hand; getting accurate strike temps is pretty damn easy with BIAB. You dont have to worry about MT thermal mass, and so much of the whole system's thermal mass is in the full volume of water that you really only heat strike water up a couple of degrees higher than desired mash temp. The thermal mass and latent temp of the grain is pretty much overwhelmed by the sheer volume of hot liquor. If you were doing a step mash, thinner L:G means less buffering (for want of a better word) against heat changes. Less chance of overshooting when you have a nice thin, easy to stir mash that doesn't really have hot or cold spots (assuming that you are stirring of course)

Thin mashes also tend to lessen the effect of starch degredation by-products on enzyme activity, so both alpha and beta perform a little better than they might in a thicker mash. This could help to explain why many of the BIAB efforts so far are yielding efficiencies comparable to batch sparging. Lose a bit because of no lautering, gain a bit because of increased enzyme activity. The experience so far also seems to suggest that a significantly finer crush can be used for BIAB, and crush is probably the MOST important factor for efficiency in a batch or no-sparge brew. You could probably hammer mill the grain into mostly powder if you were using a fine enough bag. Then you would pretty much have just created a home version of a Mash Filter lautering system.

Of course, thats by no means the whole thin vs thick mash story. I think it does however cover some significant plot points.

I think that Pat raises some very real points about the reasons people use "traditional" systems. We (myself included) emulate the methods of the Pro-brewers who's beer we admire and want to make for ourselves. We also follow "traditional" methods. Beer has been brewed in several vessels for "hundreds of years" so it must be the right way to do it. Of course the farmers in Flanders and the Pub breweries in England didn't have any really fine, super strong, heat proof, flexible and cheap material lying around the place to play with. If they did, I wonder if traditions today would be the same? Equally valid is the point that many of the methods used by the pros are dictated by matters of scale and economics. When you are brewing 600HL at a time, things get awfully big and heavy. The ony possible solution is to move the liquids around. 20litres at a time, you can leave the liquid where it is and move everything else. The scale thing is pretty drastiacally illustrated by one of the limits that BIAB has already encountered. Just attempting to do a Double Batch BIAB style has resulted in problems with weight, material strength, muscle power (and no doubt some back injuries if people aren't careful) The oppostie direction to BIAB is demonstrated in modern high gravity production breweries who deliberately brew with thick mashes to produce high gravity worts. They reduce required vessle size, energy costs turnaround times etc. Not traditional at all. But practical. Hell, modern breweries (well outside of Germany anyway) don't feel constrained in the least by tradition. The seperate Lauter Tun is a straight out consession to turn around time and capacity, at the expense of a little wort quality. A thin bed mash filter would have the trappist monks of a couple of centuries ago looking for a tree to nail you too. I doubt seriously that the three vessel system favoured by home brewers is actually used by any brewery of size in this day and age. More likely to be 5 than anything.

BIAB is a pretty new method that is just beginning to prove itself. Some of the things it has proved so far are its limitations. Size matters, much above 20 litres and BIAB probably isn't for you. Enzymes matter, BIAB isn't all that Beta friendly and if you are planning a mash at the extremes of the amalayse ranges, or you have a grist composition with a really low diastatic power, maybe BIAB isn't for you. Its not the same... your old brewing experience might not serve you too well, you will need to experiment with temps and grain bills to get similar beers from BIAB. Old dog who doesn't want to learn new tricks; BIABs not for you then.

In its place though... Sub 25litre batches, beers that don't push the boundaries too hard, especialy for new AG brewers. It might just turn out to be the right way to go. So many people are scared by all the gear, the cost, the effort. If (and its still definately a BIG if..) BIAB can do it simpler, cheaper, easier and still make quality beer; then maybe those of us who choose to still do it "the hard way" aren't really doing anything other than stubbornly punishing ourselves for our inflexibility. I'm not throwing away my Mash Tun and HLT just yet, but if I peer a little into the future, I'm not so sure that I dont see the gentle wafting of a thin white veil of curtain material; slowly coming down around them.

Thirsty


----------



## jimmysuperlative

Thirsty Boy said:


> I both agree and maybe a little disagree with you Post Modern. I'm not really sure which yet. Maybe neither?
> 
> Some musings on mash thickness and brewing processes...
> 
> Thirsty




Fabulous post, Thirsty Boy! I was fortunate enough to look to make the jump to AG at the right time ...James Squire, mimerbryg, and of course PistolPatch had just begun discussing the All In One vessel idea.
BIAB developed as a method, and because it was doable with the limited equipment I had, I jumped on board ...largely because the initial results looked positive ...and the thinking (to my mind, at least0 was that this will have to produce a better beer than I was currently brewing with kits.

I have six BIAB's to my credit now ...I'm using the recipes of "experienced" brewers, and although I don't have the luxury of other AG brewers to compare my beers with, I know that my beers are comparable with the ones I occasionally buy from my local bottleshop, and the people who drink my beers seem genuinely surprised that they're drinking "homebrew".
As a homebrewer, I think that's more than ever hoped I would achieve!

If I was in a position to advise anyone looking to get into brewing, BIAB is where I'd point them to first ...for the cost of a pot, heat source, fermenter and a piece of cloth it's an inexpensive way to start brewing great tasting beer. Although, I do admit that kit beers provide a good apprenticeship.

So, now that I can produce tasty beers from real AG recipes, and feel confident that my mates are impressed by my brewing prowess, I ask the obvious question:

How can I increase my output withnout increasing my effort? I'm talking double batch sizes ...That's the next logical step for me ...if I'm spending this much time producing 22 litres of beer, how can I increase my product output?

I'd rather not change my technique (BIAB) because it's what I know ...I'd like to think that this discussion thread will produce the answer. In the end, I know my batch size will increase. I know the beer will still taste great. I know that the people who write the books will begin referring to BIAB or Full Volume Mashing or All In One methods as valid and dependable ways to brew.


----------



## hughman666

BIAB has been a godsend in the way i have transitioned to AG, and I only started with kits late Jan this year.

I'm now moving into a more traditional mash tun setup but have lined the tun with the "bag" so that I dont need a manifold, just a drainage tap.

BIAB in itself is a 100% effective brewing technique for typical sized batches (20-25L) and it only cost me $100 to be fully BIAB operational.

The best thing about BIAB is the way in which it has evolved - no elitism, close-mindedness or negativity. It's all been about "let's see how this goes" and people have run with the idea, refined it along the way and turned it into a great brewing method.

congrats to all involved


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

One thing about BIAB I'm pretty sure I haven't commented on to date was when I mentioned it to the HBS proprietor. 

I said "guys on AHB are brewing in a bag" or "I want to start single vessel brewing" or something to that effect. 

His reply was as if he had very well seen or heard of it being done before...like "oh, are they advocating it on there now?".

No amount of questioning could sway me from the obvious fact that he already knew about this method (or perhaps he was familiar with the bucket-in-bucket single-mash tun, as this isn't really so different). 

Oh, and so far as I am aware, he very rarely gets on here. 

Pointless dribble, I know :lol: 

PZ.

edited - pretty sure he did use the word "advocating"...which I just supplemented for whatever I typed before...


----------



## PistolPatch

The last few posts here have blown me away. Thirsty Boy's post has to be one of the most informative posts I have ever read and for me personally, certainly the most striking. Absolutely brilliant stuff. I'm going to have a few questions for you Thirsty when I have digested your info fully!

The extremely well-written feedback from hughman and Jimmy has also created an excellent start to the day. As always, thanks guys. Jimmy gave me a heap of positive feedback while writing the guide and hughmann was the first BIAB brewer in the west!

FInger, I'm thinking the LHBS guy probably thinks you are talking about the Brew in the Bag they sell in the states and Canada. This is an extract thing sold in a plastic bag where it is fermented. i.e. The 'bag' is a plastic bag. I don't know much about them except that it is not all-grain.

There was someone about 200 posts ago who has been brewing in the nylon bag for some time. I asked for some more feedback but he may not have seen my request. I'll try and find his post again when I have some time and then will PM him. Be great to hear from him.

A billion thanks for your top posts guys.

:beerbang: 
Pat


----------



## lucas

hughman666 said:


> I'm now moving into a more traditional mash tun setup but have lined the tun with the "bag" so that I dont need a manifold, just a drainage tap.


I like the sounds of that. I may do that myself


----------



## The King of Spain

Pistol

My first brew was Aug this year. Did some kits and then an extract brew. I talked to Ross about ordering specialty grains and he pointed out that a BIAB was no harder that extract brewing so away I went.

I had about a litre left in the kettle at flame out which was a result of leaving the stuff deposited from the cold break. I figuered that I would lose very little during the mash with the lid on and just planned to do top up with boiling water while hopping to keep at 23L mark.

Perhaps with more agitation I could get better efficiency??

Cheers


----------



## PistolPatch

Deaves, I would have answered your question last night but was flat out writing stupid posts* most of which I ended up deleting this morning. I've been practicing drinking for the QLD Swap on Saturday  

I wouldn't worry at all about increasing efficiency until you have done several brews. I'd concentrate on recording your measurements accurately first and then you can be sure of your figures.

Some good things to record would be your mash volume, volume into kettle and its gravity, volume into fermenter, original gravity, top up water or left-over wort (if any) and what is left in your kettle (losses to trub etc). Also record your expected gravities.

When you post your efficiency here, try and specify what efficiency you mean. The easiest one to talk about is mash efficiency. For BIAB, this is simply the volume at the start of the boil and it's gravity.

Finally when you measure the volume at the start of the boil, multiply your figure by 0.95 as wort expands by 5% when boiling.

Can't believe your first brew was in August! Great stuff!

Cheers
Pat

P.S. In my stupid posting last night, I mentioned that there were heaps of people here who have several BIABs up their sleeve and write a lot better and more efficiently than I do. Hopefully these guys will feel free to answer any questions here. I'm answering way too much and not always well!!! :wacko:


----------



## Wardhog

hughman666 said:


> I'm now moving into a more traditional mash tun setup but have lined the tun with the "bag" so that I dont need a manifold, just a drainage tap.



I'm limited to partial mashes by my (lack of) equipment, and have found this to be a great way of mashing.
I have a mid-sized (probably 15L) unmodified esky, and a nylon mesh bag that holds 2kg of grain quite happily. I mash the grain in this bag sitting in the esky, and can easily remove the grain all in one go when the mash water needs to go into the kettle, and put sparge water into the esky and put the grain back in. 

This bag o' grain will quite happily sit in a colander that sits on top of the kettle when pouring another lot of sparge water through it.

I really have to organise a drain for this esky, though. Ever tried gently pouring 5L of hot wort out the top of a rectangular esky?


----------



## PistolPatch

*Biab Versus Batch Tasting Results* 

Have just posted the results here guys. I think all of you currentlyu BIAB will be pleased will be pleased and those considering it now have a little more confidence in the method.

In that post, I also mentioned I'd be asking ThirstyBoy what beers he thinks may be a problem with BIAB given the high water to grain ratio. Can't wait to hear what THirsty has to say!

Cheers
Pat



Wardhog said:


> I really have to organise a drain for this esky, though. Ever tried gently pouring 5L of hot wort out the top of a rectangular esky?



Oh wardhog! The joys of brewing!


----------



## PostModern

Thirsty Boy said:


> I both agree and maybe a little disagree with you Post Modern. I'm not really sure which yet. Maybe neither?
> 
> Some musings on mash thickness and brewing processes.
> <snip>
> Thirsty



Fair commentary there, Thirsty Boy. 

You've made me curious enough to want to try a BIAB beer. Even more curious to taste the same recipe, with adjustments if necessary, brewed side by side on both a 3 vessel and a BIAB. Not curious enough to try for myself tho


----------



## PistolPatch

If you want PoMO, I'll do a few bottles up from each keg for you. I'll be in Lane Cove for a few weeks around Xmas/New Year so if you are driving past, let me know, otherwise I can post them to you. I think I owe you a beer or two 

Just send me a PM if you're keen.

Cheers
Pat


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## FNQ Bunyip

Well after talking with a few of you at the swap on the weekend I could not wait to get cracking and get a brew on. :beerbang: 
So no more mucking around looking for excuses not to use the brew stand thats not quite finished h34r: 

I have just dropped my bag in , with Batz's Kin Kin Ale. thanks Batz .

A few "g" clamps to hold the mill in place. I've still got to finish my little Jib crane for the bag lifting but I'm feeling strong today so I'm in bussines. 

All going well I'l do another tomorrow... 

MMMm the smell of malt is wafting around the river....... :chug: 

Cheers


----------



## The King of Spain

Brewers Choice have some Mini Mash recipes on there web site where they use a grain bag in an esky. Can anyone suggest why this method would not work with a full grain bill?


----------



## PistolPatch

Can't wait to hear how the Kin Kin Ale goes with the Nottingham Bunyip. As you are brewing this in Far North Queensland instead of at its home brewery, The Bat Cave, I suggest you call the beer, Far Kin Ale. Batz would be pleased.

*Deaves:* I think the answer depends on whether you mean a 'bag' or a 'liner.' I think grain in a tight bag in an esky (or anything for that matter) will give you problems when talking about a full grain bill. With BIAB, the bag is really a liner so the grain is not packed in at all. A little agitation and the grain disperses through the full volume of water and this is how you get the equivalent of sparging (rinsing).

As long as your bag acts as a liner, it doesn't matter whether you use an esky or just have it in the kettle.

The only advantages of using an esky that I can see however are if you want to do 2 brews in one day (hence you can save 1 x your mash time) or if you wished to brew a beer that required decoction mashing of which I know nothing about.* Using an esky just for the insulation properties is otherwise unnecessary as a short burst of heat can easily be applied (in fact, a hell of a lot easier than applying it in an esky) should your mash temp drop. The esky really just creates a lot more complications in transferring wort and cleaning. 

*Step mashing can still be done with BIAB though from what I've heard, step-mashing is rarely necessary these days due to great improvements in the malting process.

Hope that answers your question mate but if I have totally missed then post back here and someone else will be able to give you an answer because...

* I'm Banning Myself From Further Answers Here For A Bit*

I'm heading off to Perth via Sydney over the next 3 weeks or so. Obviously I have a fair bit to get organised. i.e. Can I get all my brewing gear in my van? Is there any other important stuff I shouldn't let the removalists take such as basic clothing etc? 

So, I'm banning myself from answering any questions here until I get settled in Perth.

As mentioned before, there are a lot of guys on this thread here that can answer anyone's questions in a lot less bandwidth than I can - :blink: . In fact, the thread will be very well-served with other people's answers and suggestions as mine are based, as the song says, 'soley on my own meandering experience.' lol.

Once settled in Perth, I'll look forward to not only finishing but re-writing the BIAB booklet, something I've been meaning to do for quite some time. Hughman666 reckons he has a fridge full of BIABs waiting for me. I just hope he has a bloody big fridge!

 
Pat


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## FNQ Bunyip

safe travels Pat ..  

lets all prey for the hitch hikers now .. 


I'm sure that this thred will grow , I'm hoping someone moves on the wiki thing soon as I think that is where alot of this should end up. Unfortunatly I don't have the brain cells left to do such a task but from some of the work that has been done here already I'm confident that it will happen ..


:beer:


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## The King of Spain

Thanks for your help Pat.

Ive got my first BIAB chilling and will bottle this weekend. It tastes great out of the fermenter so I know I've got a good-un. I will leave the esky alone for the time being. My trouble is i have a large workshop and love to tinker...

Cheers


----------



## hughman666

PistolPatch said:


> Hughman666 reckons he has a fridge full of BIABs waiting for me. I just hope he has a bloody big fridge!
> 
> 
> Pat



gotta say that due to 2 work conferences recently, one in hayman island and one at cable beach, i haven't had time to brew and my fridge is looking, well - empty  

needless to say i have an ipa ready to keg tomorrow, a kolsch goind down this saturday and a wit going down next saturday. i'm getting a 3rd keg for xmas so stocks will be charged

pat, hope you're ready :chug:


----------



## Finite

Alright guys im almost ready to try my first BIAB and pretty much close to having everything for a full AG to after today. I got lots of toys.

1 problem, i went to lincraft and they dont have voile ivory. I asked the chick at the counter and explained what it was for and she sudgested muslin. I no that people have used it for hops but will that be ok for making a grain bag for BIAB?

Also I rummaged through the garage today looking for what I thought was a 2 ring burner I had from camping. Turns out its only a single ring...well it has two rings of flames but only from 1 ring...will this work ok for 23l batches?

Pics of burner....


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## FNQ Bunyip

finite good on ya, I can't help with if the muslin will work out ok or not but it might be a bit weak. Sew it up very well with lots of stitching so it dosen't tear when you lift it out. The swiss vollie is strong and dosen't tear... 

As for your burner give it a go it might just take a bit longer but it should get you over the line eventualy.. 

Give it all a run and report back .

Good luck you'll love the results ..

I'm doing my third for the week this arvo..
:beer:


----------



## The King of Spain

I had same problem, ended up using pollyester and it works fine. Its easier to work with and I'm told its rated to 200C.


----------



## Maxt

Try filling the kettle with the same amount of water you will be using, and see if you can get it to a rolling boil. Then use the water again for other things!


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## Finite

I got some polly thread for stitching and will frabricate some device to hold it over the sides with some fencing wire.

Would there be efficiency problems by using a double layer of muslin or am i just better off getting a good stich. (my GF's sister and mother are good at that stuff and have all the gear so ill get them to help me out)

Might even post some pics for others


----------



## The King of Spain

Finite, Im not the guru on this but I would not be worried about efficiency. The bag is only a lining.

Just put my second BIAB away. Used the exact same grain bill as last week all weighed, crushed and vacume packed by Craftbrewer and I got an OG of 1.042 as opposed to last weeks 1.035. I got my water levels right so I did not have to add water throughout and instead of using a paddle I lifted the bag several times during the mash.

Oh, and I squeezed the bag this time

Too easy...


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## Ross

Hi Finite,

As Deaves correctly replied, it won't effect your efficiency at all - As long as the liquid drains out of the bag you'll be fine...  

cheers Ross


----------



## dr K

17 pages of posts are far too mant for me to read and assimilate but I have read the first post, the instruction booklet and random others.
I must admit that I am a little concerned that such an apparently simple method should produce such apparently flawless results.
Now the idea of a grain bag is nothing new and is an excellent and relatively clean way of doing a small partial/mini-mash which can be added to the bulk of the wort which is derived from extract. You are mainly extracting flavors and colours so actual efficiency is not going to worry you too much.
Let me start from a very very simple base-line, we all know that malted barley contains apha and beta amalyse. We all know that beta works best in the low 60C's, produces much more fermentables (read maltose), that it is heat labile and that alpha works best in the higher 60"s is not as heat labile and produces less fermentables (dextrins say). We also know that when the temperature in the mash is increased to around 72C the alphas are effectively de-natured (the betas have shuufled off the coil some time before.
Basic stuff really.
Now...a question for you...after barley is malted, and the enzymes have been produced what does the malster do to the just "steeped" grains..well..he dries them, he kilns them, slightly different temperatures and methods for various malts (pilsener is the least kilned, something like Munich 2 the most of the base malts). Now he does this for some time, hours and more at temperatures far above 72C, in fact 80C and higher.
So..what happens to our enzymes, particularly the very heat sensitive Beta....
Quite simple really, the drained grains taken from the malting floor (or more likely box) have a very low liquor to grain ratio, the grains are slowly warmed so by the time 70C is passed they have an even lower water to grain ratio. 
One of the reasons that, in a mash, the water to grain ratio is so important is that the higher the ratio the less stable the beta-amalyse becomes. 
Beta-amalyse does not work independantly of alpha-amalyse, alpha tends to randomly chop the starch chains, producing fermentables and non- fermentables, beta tend to chop up the non-fermentables quite precisely to produce lots of that wonderfull stuff called maltose..as opposed that that terrible stuff sucrose that mega-swill uses.
So, with a water to grain ratio of some 7.5:1 how are we going to maintain decent beta-amalyse levels, well we could mash lower I guess, but then, the alpha-amalyse will be rather sluggish and not give the beta-amalyse much to work on, sure the beta-amalyse may get stuck into the starch chains, but very very slowly as it tend to chomp from the ends of the chains so lots of shorter chains (produced by friend alpha) makes much lighter and quicker work.
We could also mash for a very long time , with, of course, some decent temperature control.
I would love to be corrected on the following point, and as I prefaced, I have not read all the posts, but I am wondering what sort of attenuation the BIAB people have been getting, I have not seen any quantified examples.
The method, as described will produce a highly dextrinous wort, and if, as is suggested, the bag is squeezed to extract the worts, a tannic wort as well (nothing like a bit of mechanical force to pull the tannins out of the husks!)
I am not for a moment saying that you cannot make beer from the BIAB method, goodness me you can take 1.8 kilos of confectionary product laced with hop extract, add a kilo of sugar and dilute the whole lot down to make a wort like concoction which with the addition of a undersized package of unknown yeast will eventually ferment into something called homebrew beer.
I am not for a moment saying that, in the eyes, nose and palate of the beholder it is not a good beer.
I am not for a moment suggesting that the method may be in-efficent in terms of "Expected Starting Gravity", I am suggesting that that gravity may be made up of a higher than normal amount of un-fermentable "sugars" though and I guess that I am questioning the wisdom not of using the method (as it will clearly if only after a fashion work) but of trumpeting it as the New Way, the Better Way or indeed the Only Way.

Kurtz


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## Finite

Kurtz,

I think I get the idea of what you are saying, my knowledge is nowhere near that of yours in terms of the process malt undertakes so I cant really reply to that and perhaps another more experianced AG brewer can.

However after reading all the posts and material on BIAB I think it would be a little over the top to claim that Pat and the others that have been exploring this method are advocating it as "the New Way, the Better Way or indeed the Only Way". I think most would agree that this mearly offers a more simplified method of all grain brewing for those with limited space, money, or equipment who would like to try AG. The fact of the matter is that many people have tried this method and more are planning to, if it only ever acts as a stepping stone into AG for those who were perhaps a little hesitant then I guess its worth it.

P.S: BIAB VS AG taste tests has been performed, info here: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...076&hl=BIAB

Blake


----------



## The King of Spain

Hey Dr K.

Good stuff mate, from my knowledge level I cant touch you. From a duffer level I can tell you that my first beers all suck (k&K) despite my best endeavours with temp etc. So here I am with with no brains (still) but I've got some yummy beers on the way thanks to Pat and friends. Not dismissing your post mate but I am very happy with the brew I put down today (and last week). BIAB works. Dont care about tradition or anything else. It just works.


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## hughman666

dr K said:


> 17 pages of posts are far too mant for me to read and assimilate but I have read the first post, the instruction booklet and random others.



hi there,

i would suggest that if you read up on the thread a little more, you wouldn't have had to post as many questions.

cheers!


----------



## Maxt

Some good points Dr K. 

I think that one of the interesting things about trying new methods, is seeing where the (potential) weaknesses and strengths are. 

I know that I wouldn't be grain brewing without BIAB, as it was a more convenient step than getting all the other gear at once. 

I don't think any BIAB brewers are advocating geting rid of mash tuns! But at the end of the day the proof is in the pudding, and if BIAB passes the taste test, then who cares!

P.S
My apparent attenuation for my beers has been around 50-60%, (which I would have expected to be higher). This is probably due to the higher FG (due to the presence of un-fermentable sugars?)


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## Duff

But Dr K, you've missed the most important point.

It's a simple and easy way to introduce people into AG brewing.


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## PistolPatch

Hah! The thread has become more interesting already!

Busy packing today but Brad_G and I are probably the only ones that have comparative figures on batch versus BIAB at this stage so I better put the figures in here.

On the side by side brew we did (an English Bitter)...

Batch achieved 83.7% efficiency into boiler compared to BIAB's 88.4%

This increase in efficiency pretty much matches the results I had in the early days when I compared my batched beers with the same recipe then BIABed.

Attenuation, like grain chemistry, is something I know bugger-all about. However, all the brews that I have done with identical recipes have acheived similiar or the same Final Gravities as when I batch brewed them.

On the side by side brewing we did, the final gravities ended up being identical.

The yeast used in pretty much all my beers was US-56 though we did another side by side brew with SO4 and again acheived identical final gravities.

This all seems to contradict the chemistry so the only thing I can think of is maybe the chemistry side is something more important in large scale operations where even the tiniest factors become of huge importance?

As I said, I know bugger-all about this though so am probably wrong.

Whoops! Back to packing but really enjoying reading your posts guys. Also nice to see you back Finite. Good luck mate!

Pat


----------



## dr K

QUOTE(dr K @ Dec 16 2006, 07:27 PM) *

17 pages of posts are far too mant for me to read and assimilate but I have read the first post, the instruction booklet and random others.



hi there,

i would suggest that if you read up on the thread a little more, you wouldn't have had to post as many questions.

cheers!


> Well
> I have read every single post.
> I find absolutely nothing to convince me that the BIAB method will produce anything other than a dextrinous wort with low attenuation and high finishing gravities, which is precisely what the science behind mashing will tell you. Now, for a low alcohol beer that still has some body thats good, its a good base for a lambic as well but..for a kolsch thats bad !! Am I forgetting that it is a simple starting point for those who want to start mashing ? Well, those on this list who are members of Canberra Brewers may remember a meeting some 18 months or more ago I arrived with a slightly open weaved bag with a qty of cracked grain in it. I heated a qty of water in a 40 litre urn to about 72C and dumped the bag in...why...to show just how easy it was to start mashing, though this was meant as a partial mash to which more water and extract would be added.
> The challenge...convince me otherwise.
> Post some actual (not expected) opening and finishing gravities, take preferably with equipment that be trusted.
> 
> Kurtz
> Kanbeera


----------



## Zizzle

Just curious on your motivations here Dr K?

Are you wanting us to see the light that we are wrong, that BIAB produces crappy beers... our taste buds must be shot and we should move to the One True Way of AG brewing? 

What benefit do us BIABers get from taking up your challenge?

For me personally all that matters is how the beers tastes, and I like my BIAB beers. No amount of theory can change that.


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

ya go zizz 

I'm with you


:beer:


----------



## dr K

My motivations are quite simple.
I see a whole lot of posts about an innovative method of mashing, but a method that does not gel with my understanding of the process (only on the basis of water to grain really).
I am afraid that I am one of those funny old brewers considers that no matter how good a brewer you are you should take at least some basic measurements.
If it turns out that most BIAB brews are showing high levels of attenuation then I have obviously missed something in my understanding....I have never and never will "knock" another brewers taste buds, mine are certainly not what they were 30 years ago.
It is simple curiosity, and if you choose to view it otherwise I guess you are open to your opinion (as I am mine).
By the way....I prefer dextrinous beers and mine are usually on the maltier side anyway.

Kurtz


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

well put Dr K , 

Thanks


:beer:


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## Zizzle

Sorry for what must have seemed like a flame from me Dr K.

If you are open to new ideas and haven't already written it off due to preconceived notions then I look forward to your contributions. I would encourage you to spend $6 at spotlight on the material, give it a go and post your results. Start with the observable outcome, then try to come up with a theory. Maybe we all will reach the conclusion that BIAB suits some styles better than others, but lets have evidence.

Maybe I'm too cynical, but I have seen it go the other way where someone comes in on a crusade to "prove" everyone wrong with their own interpretations on theory, while expecting everyone who disagrees to do all the work and provide the evidence.

I didn't want to waste the time responding if that was the case.


Back to the original posts. I've only got a handful of BIAB under my belt, but for each one I have squeezed the bag. I cannot detect what I believe to be the taste of tannins in those beers. Someone posted the theory that over rinsing the grain brings out tannins, not squeezing. Seems to fit my observations.

A quick google brings up:


> measuring the gravity of the final runnings can tell you when to stop sparging. The general rule of thumb is to stop before the gravity drops below 1.010 or 1.008. Below this gravity, tannins are extracted.



Obviously that definitely won't be the case with BIAB. Maybe the grain being in high gravity wort helps keep the tannins in during the squeeze? I don't know.


The last BIAB I did was a Oatmeal Stout. Unfortunately I mashed too low, and I can't seem to find the figures, but I remember it having excellent attenuation. It is very dry... a lot of alcohol taste. I would prefer much more body.

You mention you had a 40lt urn at 72 degrees: that temp seems high for a full volume mash, how much water did you use and what was the temp after the grain was added?


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## PistolPatch

Howdy Kurtz,

I'm a bit confused on the basic measurements comment as, most BIAB brewers do pay special attention to measurements though, like anyone, one or two may forget some things on their first brew! Accurate figures are important. In fact, only a few weeks ago in this thread, I listed some measurements that people new to AG should take special notice of.

As mentioned before, I'm a bit short of time at the moment but as specified this morning the figures show no probs with attenuation. More specifically 1.010 on lagers/pilseners (with Saflager 34/70) and 1.014 for darker beers such as the Scwartz (though this was brewed with the ale yeast, US-56).

I'm enjoying the education on the grain chemistry however, I think that some of your comments such as the, 'you should take at least some basic measurements,' or, 'provide real figures,' or people here saying BIAB is the, 'only way,' are not only incorrect but also make the BIAB brewers sound like a bunch of cowboys which they are not. They are, as a generalisation, keen as mustard with a thirst to learn. They are certainly not, 'redneck,' brewers.

I'm not sure if I can give you any other figures but I'm thinking that those I provided today would be enough to show that BIAB is getting slightly higher efficiency and achieving the same FG as batch-sparging without any noticeable taste differences. (Hoops, the only one who got the triangular test correct, found the BIAB beer to have slightly less body than the batch but also less astringency.)

I think that last para sums up our experiences to date.

All the best,
Pat


----------



## Maxt

In the interest of science...
My BIAB FG's.

Porter 1 : 1020 (Windsor)
APA: 1012 (US-56)
Porter 2: 1022 (Windsor)
Aussie Lager: 1012 (Saflager)


----------



## dr K

woooo..lighten up a bit lads..
have a read of my posts...I was inquisitive and gave the reasons why in the sense of how enzymes work in a mash with particular reference to mash thickness. I admitted (in fact pre-faced my post) that I had not read all the posts but was interested in some actual figures that might dis-prove what I thought.

I am then told that I should read them all and I will find the answer....so I did, all 240+, and what did I find, well a lot but not a single post with actual starting and finishing gravities, the closest I found was one that was 1022 or so, but then this was dimissed as a dodgy instrument a post or two later, I got another that seemd indicate (but only indicate) a high finishing gravity.
After my initial post one brewer commented that attenuation seemed low and that that would indicate a high level of unfermentables (which is what the science says will happen)
Did I say that BIABS are cowboys, rednecks, I do not think so, in fact my call for actual figures was based on the premise that these measurements had been taken (as I am sure that they were)

So, PP I think that I can sort of get something from your


> the figures show no probs with attenuation. More specifically 1.010 on lagers/pilseners (with Saflager 34/70) and 1.014 for darker beers such as the Scwartz (though this was brewed with the ale yeast, US-56).


I think that you mentioned your Scwartz was 2.5% alc somewhere? (#133)
Would I not be correct if I suggested that your opening gravity was 1.033
Further would that not give you an apparent attenuation of about 58%?
Given that the usual range for this yeast is in the 73-77% range I think that is a fair call to say the attenuation was low, which is precisely what the science would indicate.

To reiterate...at no stage have I said that BIAB will not work, but I have indicated that I felt that the result would be a dexrinous wort with low attenuation....which it appears to be.
I also pointed out that I prefer more dextrinous beers.

I am not knocking anyone, or their processes, I am merely making an enquiry....and I have had two responses, both indicating low attenuation.
Guess my major error was that I made the mistake of mixing science with brewing.

K


----------



## The King of Spain

My first BIAB had an OG of 1.035 to which I added some DME to get to 1.044 target. The FG was 1.008 using a Nottingham yeast.


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

Maybe as a lot of BIAB sofar has been done by New AG'rs we could all start to pay a bit more attention to some of the finner points of brewing. 
Iknow that I now have time to do a bit of cleaning or other stuff around my brewery area and not "hover " over the whole time. I take readings on my refractometer and will do FGs when these are finished with an hydrometer. 
I'm sure that with a few more on the score sheet we will all get a better idea how the data stacks up..

As Zizz says DrK your intrust shows, why not give it ago and report "Your data" back to us starting out on the road that you have traveld so far on. Your scienctific approch may come up with some interesting output. 

Cheers


----------



## PistolPatch

You did bloody well to read all the posts here Kurt!

There might have been a bit more discussion on gravities etc in the "All In One Brewery" thread I think. I can't even keep up with where evrything has been posted! Anyway I've put a few more in at the bottom here.

With the 2.5% Schwartz, this was a brewing error. I failed to check my end of boil volume and it was way too high. (Made that mistake sober as well!)

The other Schwartzs ranged from 3.5% to 6% ABV with the final gravities being around 1.014 which is also similiar to what Ross gets with his batch-sparging.

So as far as I can see, most of the figures we have available seem to show no difference. When I get some time, I'll have a bash at doing some side by side brews with normal versus full-volume brewing.

Apart from the extra figures below, I think that's all I can offer here at this stage and I really should be packing - lol.

Cheers
Pat

*A Few Other Gravities*

Pilsener1 OG 1.048 down to FG 1.10 (Expecteds were 1.048 and 1.012)
Pilsener2 OG 1.047 down to 1.010 (Expecteds were 1.045 and 1.012)
Schwartz1 OG 1.053 down to 1.015 (Expecteds were 1.055 and 1.013)
Schwartz2 OG 1.052 down to 1.014 (Expecteds were 1.054 and 1.013)
Kilcenny OG (Mid-Strength) 1.033 down to 1.005. (Expecteds were 1.038 and 1.010)
ESB OG 1.052 down to 1..010 (Expecteds were 1.045 and 1.011)


----------



## wobbly

As PP states this BIAB thread started as on off shute to the "All in One Brewery" thread started by James Squire back in June/July 06.

The "All in One" principle (in my view) is closer to traditional mashing and does not appear to depart very far from the traditional science and is/was therefore more attractive for me than the BIAB concept. It also offers another low cost effective way to get into all grain brewing.

The "All in One" principle is/was nothing new and as pointed out by "Flemming" is based on a number of commercial kits available through out Europe.

Whilst the "All in One" principle appears to be based on high grist to water ratios (5:1 or higher) from my observations and actual brews the ratio inside the "mash bucket" is much closer to traditional ratios of around 3:1. The "other" liquid is basically a heat source surounding the mash bucket.

To date I have completed 9 brews using this method and have another 2 in secondary conditioning and other traditional mash brewers have commented (subjectively) that they (my beers) are good beers.

My results to date are summarised in the following

#1 a golden ale style
Grian 5.2kgs
OG 1050
FG 1008
Yeast US56

#2 Golden Ale Style
Grain 4.4kgs
OG 1040
FG 1008
Yeast US56

#3 Irish Red Ale
Grain 5.2kgs
OG 1051
FG 1013
Yeast wy 1084

#4 APA Style
Grian 4.95kgs
OG 1048
FG 1010
Yeast wy1272

#5 APA style
Grain 5kg
OG 1046
FG 1008 
Yeast wy 1272

#6 Heffe Style
Grain 5.4 kg
OG 1046
FG 1012
Yeast wy 3068

#7Belgin(?)
Grain 5.3
OG 1051
FG 1005
Yeast WLP530

#8 Pale Ale
Grain 4.6kg
OG 1046
FG 1011
Yeast Rogue Pacman

#9 Pale Ale
Grain 5kg
OG 1050
FG 1012 
Yeast Rogue Pacman

I am quite happy with the results from this method and see no reason to change at this time.

Benefits as far as I am concerned are low cost and ease of use.
Costs were 36lt Robinox stock pot $115, 2.4kw immersion heater $56, 1.5kw portable hot plate $34, Aquarium Pump $12, Mayo mash bucket (free) Fibre Glass fly screen false bottom $3


----------



## Maxt

If nothing else, Kurtz has prompted us to be a bit more scientific about reporting the results we are getting.

My OG and FG's

Chocolate Oat Porter 1 : 6kg grain OG ? (broken Hydrometer) FG 1020 (Windsor)
APA: 5kg grain OG 1045 FG 1012 (US-56)
Chocolate Oat Porter 2: 6kg grain OG 1052 FG 1022 (Windsor)
Aussie Lager: 4.25kg grain OG 1034 FG 1012 (Saflager)


----------



## hughman666

i started AG with BIAB as a transition to AG from extract brewing while I was assembling the rest of the equipment.

now i have finished my mash tun (55L esky), i am not using a SS braid but have lined it with the mash bag from BIAB, works bloody well.

anyway, i have now done a few brews using my mash tun and can compare previous brews with my BIAB brews:

BIAB (all done with US56):

Pale Ale
OG: 1048
FG: 1010

Golden Ale
OG: 1044
FG: 1012

Kolsch:
OG: 1047
FG: 1012

Traditional AG (using US56):

Pale Ale
OG: 1048
FG: 1012

Kolsch
OG: 1043
FG: TBC

I guess my experience has been that the BIAB brews have had no noticeable difference in taste or OG to the traditional brewing method. I'm moving to traditional AG because I want to build a full rig with march pump, automation etc etc, and go on to doing double and triple batches. however if I was pushed for space and/or costs BIAB is a viable alternative method and in my opinion produces beers of equal quality to traditional methods. the only drawback i can see is that you are limited to single batches. this shouldn't be an issue though for 90% of microbrewers.


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## dr K

This is fantastic (and please read no more into that just a word).
I can now look at the results of a number of BIAB brewers (I have as yet not done so) and see, if only for myself, the results of such a mashing regime.
I was hoping (and thus the reason in part for my original post) that I would find another path to the dextrinoous worts created by turbid mashing(*) without all the intricasies involved in so doing, a short-cut as it were,but feel on reflection that, as short cuts are wont to do, will find myself at a dead end.

(*) Turbid mashing ...a crazy tax evasion techinque employed by sections of current belgium when those sections fell under dutch tax laws.

K


----------



## PistolPatch

Glad to see the combined effort above answered your question Kurt. Sorry it didn't make a short-cut for you though.

It was really interesting to explore the attenuation as it's something that no one else has thought of until now - we all just assumed it would be the same as traditional methods. It's good, for us anyway, to see that this seems to be correct.

Sometimes I wonder when I read things in the advanced textbooks. For example, they often say things like doing such and such will give you a maltier beer but often never specify how much maltier. Is it 1% or 10% maltier? This may be of great concern to a commercial brewery but largely irrelevant to craftbrewers.

I sometimes find it very hard to work out what's important and what's not from the advanced books and articles.

The learning continues...

Cheers,
Pat

P.S. Thanks a lot not only to Kurtz but everyone else for all your informative posts above :super:


----------



## Finite

Ok guys im almost ready to do my first AG using the BIAB method.

Just wanted to check some things first about the mash.. 15L batch btw

Im mashing at 66c and a water/grain ratio of 2.5L/Kg. I read that the escolater mash is not the way to go so if im doing a single infusion beersmith says I add 8.1L of 72.4c strike water to the pot and mash for 60min. Do I then just top up the pot for the boil?

Im also going to be mash hopping do I add the hops at the start of the mash?


----------



## jimmysuperlative

Finite said:


> Ok guys im almost ready to do my first AG using the BIAB method.
> 
> Just wanted to check some things first about the mash.. 15L batch btw
> 
> Im mashing at 66c and a water/grain ratio of 2.5L/Kg. I read that the escolater mash is not the way to go so if im doing a single infusion beersmith says I add 8.1L of 72.4c strike water to the pot and mash for 60min. Do I then just top up the pot for the boil?
> 
> Im also going to be mash hopping do I add the hops at the start of the mash?




What size pot are you using? If you are using the BIAB method you will start with your full volume of water in your boiler ...for example, I start with 38L. I'll lose some to grain absorbtion (2-4L) and some to evaporation (10-12L) during the boil.

So, I end up with 24 - 26L at the end of my boil. I leave 1 or 2L of break in the boiler ...and end up with a batch size of 23 - 24L.

As for hitting your mash temps ...I just turn the heat on and add the grains to the water (in bag, of course) and continue heating and stirring continuously until the correct temps are met. Then, it's heat off, cover pot and check every 15 -25mins to see if more heat (and stirring) is needed.

If you haven't downloaded Pistolpatch's excel document (page 1 of this thread), then I'd take a look at it for the step by step (minute by minute) outline of the method.

Hope this helps Finite?


----------



## Zizzle

My first BIAB was a half batch on the stove. You want to fill your pot with water such that the grain will just fit in without spilling any. Then the water heat to about 70 deg.

Line the pot with he bag then dump the grain in. Check temp at ever increasing intervals, and apply heat as necessary to maintain your target mash temp. After 90min reef the bag out, and squeeze out some wort, while bringing the pot to the boil.

Do your hop additions while boiling, chill in the bath or laundry sink.

Too easy.


----------



## Finite

jimmysuperlative said:


> What size pot are you using?



50L pot (converted keg) and doing a 15L batch,

doesnt the water / grain raito matter when doing a BIAB mash?


----------



## Stuster

Apparently not, Finite. Whack in all the water and away you go.


----------



## Finite

okie dokies thanks for the replies fellas!


----------



## Finite

First AG (BIAB)

Well its mashing atm. Let me just star by saying omg im a knob. I must say im having a cracker of a time even though.....


I was pooring the grain into the pot stiring smelling good.....OH shit....forgot the god damn bag! :beerbang:. Had a little panic then stoped and remembered one of the best rules in live. Dont Panic. So I though of some solutions. 

Ended up doing this:

Took the pot and placed it up high...made a quick makeshift 3 teir system with my brew pot on top with about 1/4 of the grain added, scooped out the majority with the strainer into the grain bag which was in a bucked with tap and racking tube attached. I then carefully (sparged if you will) the wort through the grain and out the tube into the fermenter I had waiting.

So i had the hot (weak) and clean wort in the fermenter....took the pot and cleaned it out with hot tap water to get all the grain out, tested the tap wasnt cloged (nope). Then racked (carefully trying to to splash to much) the wort back into the clean pot, it had droped about 8C so i heated it up to about 0.5C under my initial strike water temp and added the grain back with wet grain then added the rest of the grain... hit 66.5C and stired until 66. Its now mashing with about 35min to go. Lost about 2 C so far so ive heated it abit and it is sitting at 65.5 atm.

So im back on track...recon i saved it? I think it might be ok. I must say I dont care too much, cause Im having a good time. I can always make more and wont make the same mistake LOL.

Brew On,

Blake

P.S: BTW maybe a new angle here Pat? Just think of the potential haha.... 

Brew In a Bag, Without a bag, Then a Bag.


----------



## jimmysuperlative

Good recovery ............Top stuff! "BIAGWOABTAB" ...I don't know if that will catch on????


----------



## The King of Spain

I've already posted this under a different thread, but for the consistancy here 'tis. First BIAB and one of the nicest beers I've tasted. Selected a recipe I liked the look of, made a few adjustments with Ross and volia!! Far exceeds expectations. Hope this is not a fluke. Its getting drank in preferance to a box of Stella in the fridge.


----------



## wobbly

Well I guess someone had to "Rain on the Parade" of BIAB/All in One Brewery/Full Volume Mashing

After 12 brews using the "All in One" concept I am going to revert to "traditional mashing" as non of my past 12 beers has been as good as those I made using traditional mashing methods (albeit a "bucket in a bucket system")

I have spoken at lenght of the issues with Roy at TWOC and tried a number of adjustments without any real improvement.

Issues

Most beers have evidenced a "chill haze" I have tested and confirmed conversion with an Iodine test and also tried increasing whirlfloc addtion to 30 mins from end of boil with no benefit.

Most beers have exhibited a sweet tatse (best way to describe it) with a variety of yeasts US56, Wyeast 1056, Weast 1272, Rogues Pacman, WLP 530. Grain bill has not had an excess of either Crystal, Munich or Vienna malts

Most beers have tended to be quite "malty" with mash temps of 65C. Double checked the reading with a second thermometer

I have been using a muslin hop bag (about 200mm dia) and none of my beers exhibit the hop flavours of those brewed with the hops added direct to the boil. SG into boiler have typically been 1035 to 1040 and hop additions have been equivilant to that required to provide a range of 26 to 40 IBU according to Beer Smith. I have purchased so called "fresh hops" to try and discount old/stale hops.

I have been using an immersion heater in lieu of a three ring gas burner. Evaporation rates have been down a bit from 14% to around 12%.

So I'm going back to using a new (Christmas present) Ice Cold eski with a Phills False Bottom (an upgrade from the Bucket in a Bucket) and also going back to adding the hops direct to the kettle in an effort to get back where I was 6/8 months ago and use the three ring burner again for the boil

Comments would be welcomed

Cheers 

Wobbly


----------



## Zizzle

Well, I'm going the opposite direction to wobbly. I'm ramping up my BIAB rig.

And my last BIAB I mashed at 65 which turned out far to dry for my tastes. I don't care that much about clarity, but if I did, I'd probably try adding whirlfloc, polyclar then filtering.

Last night I scavenged a bit of angle iron I had laying around to help hoist my bag and bolted it up to my brew stand.

Today it's in action. Here you can see it in action, wort draining out and all:










Not the straightest or prettiest bit of gear, but it was free and only took about 30mins.

Those 2 elements @ 2200W sure get it boiling:






The bag is also being used as a hop sock there.


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

way to go Zizz,  

I did another this arvo , #6 

Still lifting my bag but working on the lifting mount.

:beer: merry xmas


----------



## dr K

Wobbly, who has tried BIAB 12 times has decided that is not for him/her and is going back the to traditional methods, flawed as they may be..
Wobblies reports of teh BIAB beers that he/she has made are rather too sweet.
This, of course makes perfect sense, for, as I have pointed out before the water to grain ratio that you lads (and I say lads because I cannot imagine a woman being so pig headedly stupid) use in your all in one , full volume method will lead only down the path of beta amalyicide.
The BIABic self obsession with patently flawed methods and the BIABer's monocular view of the world makes it impossible for them to step outside of their rather constricted world view and embrace some sensible, logical and heaven forbid even moderately science based truth.
Oh cut me down tweedle dee and of course tweedle dumb, use my straw head as fuel for the fire, that Salemic pyre that burns witches such as i who dare admit that they actually not trod the holey path !!
The base line is that you guys are actually on to something very very good, something that could actually make as big a cahnge to home brewing as the Pap a Zap, you are just going the wrong way and unless you open that other eye you will never ever know, will you???
So stop thinking that you are the new wave and look around.

Kynically Yours...
Kurtz

ps.....it will work, just think really hard !!!


----------



## Zizzle

dr K said:


> Wobbly, who has tried BIAB 12 times has decided that is not for him/her and is going back the to traditional methods, flawed as they may be..



... and his decision is far more valid than the number of people who have tried BIAB and found it worthwhile?

I have tried it a number of times and I find it great.

Heaven forbid people have different tastes and different convenience/result trade-offs hey dr K?

For people like me & Ned the alternative is K&K... Just curious do you think BIAB produces worse beers than K&K? One or two people don't like BIAB, so all of us should give up?



> The BIABic self obsession with patently flawed methods and the BIABer's monocular view of the world makes it impossible for them to step outside of their rather constricted world view and embrace some sensible, logical and heaven forbid even moderately science based truth.



Err... nice strawman interspersed with ad-hominem attacks... great argument style there... I bet you can knock that strawman down really well and convince us all.

The only problem is that it isn't grounded in truth. Where was it claimed that BIAB was everything to everyone? Where is this obsession demonstrated? Are people going into sparge threads and preaching BIAB as the only way?

The real question is why do you need feel the need to come in here on a crusade and tell people that are having success in AG brewing and making decent beers that they are doing the wrong thing?

Do you think it's working? You are convincing people?



> Oh cut me down tweedle dee and of course tweedle dumb, use my straw head as fuel for the fire, that Salemic pyre that burns witches such as i who dare admit that they actually not trod the holey path !!



Hahaha! Pot calling the kettle black!

It's funny you talk about witch hunts. From my position it feels like you are out to hunt down anyone who doesn't use your holey methods... you are in the BIAB telling us we are all wrong.

For the record, I don't claim that BIAB makes better beers than other AG methods. I claim it makes better beers than K&K, is easier than sparging, and requires less up front investment in equipment. For my mind there are many other variables in my process that I need to improve before moving away from BIAB. And who knows, even then I may prefer the sweeter taste it gives if you theory is correct.


----------



## hughman666

Zizzle said:


> Do you think it's working? You are convincing people?
> Hahaha! Pot calling the kettle black!
> 
> It's funny you talk about witch hunts. From my position it feels like you are out to hunt down anyone who doesn't use your holey methods... you are in the BIAB telling us we are all wrong.



ahhh who cares about what dr k says, this is just some plonker how hasn't presented a beer for taste testing to any group, and is probably somebody with a personality too unpleasant too even turn up to a brewers' meeting.

people like this obviously post when they've had one too many tooheys news and are up for a fight from the safety of their armchairs.

good luck dr k and merry xmas


----------



## Finite

Dr K,

No one here is going on a crusade to push this method onto other. If it wernt for this I wouldnt be doing AG yet and thats a fact. Its just far to expensive for me to buy all the equipment in one go. Many have had great success with this method and I plan to have a go too, if only to be a stepping stone into AG. No one EVER stated that this is a set in stone and advisable route to take instead of using a mash tun.

Now the facts you talk about are in regards to the water the grain ratio when mashing which I did notice was different when I did my first one (scroll up) but thought I would stick with what most have done for the first one. As such for my second BIAB I plan to mash with a water the grain ratio of 2.5 / 1 and will document the results.

I have no problem with what your saying and let it be known that im absolutley taking all your knowledge on board I also encourage you to continute to help improve this method.

I will however say that I dont and im sure many others dont very much enjoy being patronized for trying something different. If you want to get your ideas and knowledge across it might be better recived if you wernt being condescending.

Merry Christmas :beer:


----------



## ant

Ease up all, it's frickin Christmas. 

BIAB is a good transition from K&K to AG. It's not a perfect system. No-one is claiming it to be. Dr K has valid questions regarding the formation of dextrinous wort.

What *would* be nice is if Dr K (or others) have the answers wrt water:grain and beta production, or can suggest a variation to the BIAB methodology that will introduce science to the debate.

Seasons greetings, etc...


----------



## Finite

ant,

I agree mate. Im keen to improve this method untill I can afford to get all the parts for the 3 tier system.

Dr K. Would you sudgest mashing at a standard water : grain ratio and then topping up with hot water before boiling?

P.S: For those interested, my summer ale has been fermenting for about 24 hours or so now and I just took a reading, SG is now 1032 from an OG of 1042. Smells fantastic and tastes even better, I could literaly drink it now....but I wont. Already about 15X better than any other K&K ive made.


----------



## PostModern

Lads, dough in with a "traditional" liquor/grist ratio of about 2.5L/Kg then mash for an hour, then add the rest of the water. Will give the beta amylase time to work in a sensible liquor:grist ratio then the additional water will allow you to soak out a little extra sugar. Your efficiency is never going to be great with BIAB, but at least with a sane or "traditional" liquor:grist ratio, you might get some decent tasting beer.

Cheers and a Beery Xmas to you all.

PoMo.


----------



## Ross

PostModern said:


> Your efficiency is never going to be great with BIAB, but at least with a sane or "traditional" liquor:grist ratio, you might get some decent tasting beer.
> 
> PoMo.



I'm not totally convinced on the BIAB method, but will leave critisism (if any) until I've tried making one myself. I've drunk some pretty decent BIAB beers, Wildabeasts from the case swap being one of them & considering these are the guys first forays into AG they are to be commended.
Efficiency's have also proven to be pretty good so far - So comments like the above from those who haven't even bothered to trial the method themselves (apologies if you have), I find quite unnecessary.

Please keep your comments until you have something constructive to add, rather than being negative for the sake of it. This is proving an excellent way for brewers to make the transistion into AG & some may find it's their prefered option.

Cheers & Merry Christmas to all 

Edit: I believe AndQld did a full volume mash on his house beer. Would be good to hear how this turned out by comparison - Andrew?


----------



## hughman666

Ross said:


> This is proving an excellent way for brewers to make the transistion into AG & some may find it's their prefered option.
> 
> Cheers & Merry Christmas to all



too right, this is how i got into AG and i have never looked back!


----------



## PostModern

Ross said:


> Please keep your comments until you have something constructive to add, rather than being negative for the sake of it. This is proving an excellent way for brewers to make the transistion into AG & some may find it's their prefered option.



People were commenting that they were leaving the method because the beer is too sweet. People have commented that too thin a mash = too sweet a beer. I simply offered the logic of joining those comments. If anything, I thought I was offering constructive criticism to KEEP people brewing in a bag. Perhaps, if I reread my post, I might see how it was negative.... um nope, all I see is you quoting a line out of context.

Have a great Xmas BIAB'ers!


----------



## phonos

dr K said:


> (and I say lads because I cannot imagine a woman being so pig headedly stupid)



Hi PostModern,

you have posted some very helpful information here in helping people work out what's going in in a full volume mash and what people are compromising for the ease of using a single container, as has kurtz from time to time. However, Kurtz calling people pig headedly stupid is not particularly helpful (which is why everyone has suddenly become so defensive), and I'm wondering if an administrator (or kurtz) might consider removing this trolling post.

back on topic, I had considered having a lower ratio in the bag, then topping up for the boil. I'm trying to think of what disadvantage there might be to this method, but the only thing I can think of is that the liquor is likely to cool down quicker, making it difficult to keep a constant mash temp. After the mash, you can add the hot water simply by adding boiling water from your (coffee) kettle, which probably won't be much slower than bringing 30 litres up to the boil using your burner/immsersion element. I don't have the gear for a BIAB yet (how sad is that!) perhaps someone who has done one would be willing to say if there is any issue doing things this way?


----------



## PostModern

I guess the temp dropping is the main issue, which is at least one reason brewing is traditionally done with more than one vessel. Perhaps some malts will work better than others with large liquor:grist ratios? Maybe a BIABer would try a brew with Galaxy followed by one with Marris Otter? (Just trying to think of very different base malts here).

Moderators don't necessarily read every post in every thread. Given the amount of traffic there is on here lately, it's impossible for us to do so. If you see a post that you think needs a mod or admin attention, click the report link to bring it to our attention.

Cheers,
PoMo.


----------



## Maxt

Some weird Christmas vibes in the air hey?!

PoMo. I thought your post was helpful. At the end of the day we all want to make good beer. 

Kurtz initially posted some useful info, and challenged the thinking on BIAB, which has led to other posters suggesting alternative solutions....but Dr K, were you on the silly juice when you posted last? 

Other than a few over-exhuberant posts from BIAB's surrogate dad (PistolPatch), I don't recall anyone saying BIAB was better than other techiques. In fact most people have acknowledged it is a stepping stone. Whether they refine techniques and stay with BIAB or go onto using mash tuns etc is their business, but how you can claim that BIAB brewers are wilfully ignorant, is just straw headed (or are you looking for a bit of entertainment by baiting?)


----------



## Chris

Hi Guys,

This is just an innocent question because I am interested.
When I started AG I usually got about 50 to 65% efficiency, what efficiency are you guys getting with BIAB? Im just asking because even if you get say 40 or 50% thats pretty good considering the reduced ammount of equipment.

Cheers


----------



## Maxt

My first BIAb gave me 60%. My last Two I got 80% and 78%. (This is efficiency into kettle from Beersmith).


----------



## Chris

Cheers Maxt
That sounds pretty good. I dont have beersmith, but promash. so to check were on the same page you get about 25lt at og~1.045 from ~4.5 kg of grain? very roughly.
When you pull the sack out do you just let it drain out?


----------



## The King of Spain

> Maybe a BIABer would try a brew with Galaxy followed by one with Marris Otter?



Did my first BIAB with Galaxy. Its not sweet but does have a hint of butterscotch. I'm not sure if this was my sanitisation or a result of pitching Nottingham at 24C and dropping it to 17C in the fridge for fermentation.

Anyone got a suggestion? My even be the wheat? At any rate its still yummy

Should I consider a diacetyl rest for this type of yeast?


----------



## Kai

That sounds like a fermentation issue, not a problem with brewing method. I'm going to assume that by 'too sweet' people are referring to poor attenuation?


----------



## The King of Spain

I'm bottling a second batch of the same grain bill as we speak. Has exact same taste (which I think is good and won't be the last). Perhaps its the 500g of wheat used?

OG 1.044
FG 1.008
Yeast Nottingham


----------



## Maxt

Chris said:


> Cheers Maxt
> That sounds pretty good. I dont have beersmith, but promash. so to check were on the same page you get about 25lt at og~1.045 from ~4.5 kg of grain? very roughly.
> When you pull the sack out do you just let it drain out?





6.2kg grain 30L at 1052.

I pull the bag out, and hang it over a chair into a spare fermenter. I get a litre or two out, but I don't squeeze it.

As for sweetness, I have only made APA's and oat porters. The Porter is a bit sweet, but not unpleasant.

The only thing to do is to make two identical beers, using the same gear, except BIAB one, and esky mash (then use the same kettle) for the other. Compare.

Next beer I will try a less water to grain ratio and see how this goes. The only hassle is having to have another source of water heated to sparge temp. Sort of defeats the 'less is more' BIAB idea.


----------



## PostModern

Kai said:


> I'm going to assume that by 'too sweet' people are referring to poor attenuation?



From the theory that Dr K is preaching, the worts should be dextrinous. ie in thin mashes the alpha amylase will perform at a normal rate, but beta amylase will be retarded, thus leaving longer sugar chains that the yeast can't ferment, thus leaving sweeter, underattenuated beers. From what people are posting, this doesn't seem to be actually happening.


----------



## The King of Spain

PM - here is a link to a published paper that supports your observation


Comparasion of brewing methods


----------



## Kai

PostModern said:


> From the theory that Dr K is preaching, the worts should be dextrinous. ie in thin mashes the alpha amylase will perform at a normal rate, but beta amylase will be retarded, thus leaving longer sugar chains that the yeast can't ferment, thus leaving sweeter, underattenuated beers. From what people are posting, this doesn't seem to be actually happening.



I thought that was it. I dislike referring to underattenuated beers as sweet, since sweetness perception also depends on grist composition and hopping levels. But I digress.


----------



## Finite

Just some more info guys.

My first BIAB and AG has been fermenting for about 4 and a half days now with a safale US-56 dried yeast which I reydrated as the instructions of their website. It has just slowed down now. Fermentation temp was around 20C

Stats for the brew so far are:

Efficiency into kettle: 70%
OG: 1.042
FG: 1.011
Attenuation: 73%

I expect this to drop maybe another point soon so will probably hit 75% on the button, I will let you all know where she stops.

Notes: Smells great and doesnt taste overly sweet at all however is reasonably hopped at 40 IBU which may mask the sweetness a little


----------



## Chris

> 6.2kg grain 30L at 1052.


 Maxt

Well bugger me.
not bad at all.
Maybe you guys could some how incorporate a small fruit press to get the last little bit out like coopers do. lol

Cheers


----------



## The King of Spain

> Lads, dough in with a "traditional" liquor/grist ratio of about 2.5L/Kg then mash for an hour, then add the rest of the water. Will give the beta amylase time to work in a sensible liquor:grist ratio then the additional water will allow you to soak out a little extra sugar


.

Will let you all know how PoMo's advise works. I used two boilers and added 13L at 70C to boiler with the grain in it. I had to give it some flame for a few minutes to get it to exactly 66C (try doing that with an esky). 

All said a very simple interum step.


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## PostModern

deaves said:


> I had to give it some flame for a few minutes to get it to exactly 66C (try doing that with an esky).



Immersion element  I was a few degrees off strike temp today due to not pre-heating my tun (oops, boiled the kettle, made a cuppa, forgot to empty kettle into tun to pre-heat like I normally do).

Let us know how it turns out, though you're not strictly one-pot brewing now, are you?


----------



## The King of Spain

> Let us know how it turns out, though you're not strictly one-pot brewing now, are you?



Nope, whatever works. Good beer is the outcome, will take shortest route. 

OK, OG is 1.0045 into 23L
I may be supprised if Nottingham yeast does not pull the FG below 1.008 because thats where the last 2 ended with a full volume (BIAB) mash. Thats one serious yeast. Now the little beasties can chop into the tail ends of the c-tree (so theory goes) so lets see.

By way PoMo- thanks. No extra work so may owe you a beer(s). Had a smaller kettle from my 1 extract day.


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## PistolPatch

Merry Xmas Guys!

Just found a computer and will have to do a few other things before I write back anything of substance here. Have a fairly good idea of what has been happening here and it's great to see that there are enough knowledgable guys out there to reply to somewhat foolish posts. Donya guys!

Haven't had time to see how all the above started but for now we can all be confident that BIAB beers seem to be no different from any other beers. I, in some ways, am the least responsible poster here but, looking back, I can't see any claim I have made that is not at least now a fact or possibility. 

Stick by your guns guys. BIAB is absolutely fine. It has already proved itself right.

What I'm interested in now is finding out where it is wrong. This would be of value and I'm sure there are some areas of real value where BIAB will fail. But let's do triangular tests first eh?

Looking forward to reading the above posts more fully when I have time but am already really pleased to have seen what I have seen 

Donya,
Pat


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## Finite

Update on my brew.

Been in primary for 6 days now:

OG 1042
SG 1010

Apparent Attenuation: 75.4%


----------



## The King of Spain

Has anyone else done the Ross's Schwartzbier that came with PPs documentation. I had an OG of 1.0045 (23L). Its just about out of steam after 4 days using Nottingham yeast. Gravity is currently 1.0011 and cant see it getting much lower.

This was using a more conventional mash in volume of 13L with rest added at 60min.

Interested to see how finishing gravities compare with others

EDIT Note

Sorry folks

Calabrating for temperature the true OG was 1047 and FG (now 2/1/07) of 1010


----------



## Finite

Update on my brew.

Been in primary for 10 days now and its droped another 2 points.

OG 1042
SG 1008

Apparent Attenuation: 80.3%


----------



## Finite

Brewing my 2nd AG now. A Choc oatmeal stout. Its mashing atm ill let you know how I go.


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## Finite

Porter chilling in a jerry now. Efficiency was worse this time 66.1%.

I didnt end up mashing at a lower liquor to grain ratio as the stove I was going to heat the extra water in was being used. I also think I could have poored and mixed the grains a bit slower when I added them. The spent grains I tasted still had some sweetness. This also was a bigger batch @ 23L (35L strike water). And I probably mashed a little hot 66.7 - 64.5

Next brew I do im (really) planing to mash at a 2.5L liqour to grain ratio and heating the extra water on ther stove.

I was thinking I could lift the bag up and tie it off to strain over the pot and rinse the grain bag with the hot water im adding, what do people think about this?


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## FNQ Bunyip

HI finite , on my last one I removed the bag at the end of the mash and sat it in a 20lt stockpot then poured 3lts of warm water from a pot over the grains and lifted the bag to drain for about 15mins and got 3.4lts of 4.6brix wort out and added to the boil that was the rest of the brew. I dont know if it made any real differance to the end result but I feel better about it as the grain was rinced., and wasent as sweet as past batches.. can allways boil for a few extra mins to get back to right volume.. 

:beer:


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## Finite

Wow this US-56 is really efficient. 12 days in the primary now and heres the stats of the summer ale.

OG 1042
SG 1005

Apparent Attenuation: 87.7%


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## The King of Spain

Schwartzbier bottled today, 'tis very very good . As previously posted I did a very simple interum step using two boilers and a conventional mash volume of about 13L for first 60min...etc

Now thing is I can't see why I would want to change my current process (from 2 boiler brewing that is) . I can very quickly change my mash temp and if desired I can do a mash-out, though a stuck sparge is the least of my probs. And rather than rinse water through grain, I move grain in a bag though water and (least I think) get same result. Check the posted gravities, same OG but lower FG (OK used Notts which has better attenuation than US56)

Lets call it simply brewing


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## Finite

Just tried my first AG after being in bottle for 3 days.....I know but I couldnt wait. (Ross's Nelson Sauvin Summer Ale)

A little undercarbonated as expected but other than that... Smells amazing! The aroma of these hops just totaly kicks arse, wonderfull white wine and fruity aroma. Tastes great! A smooth malt profile up front followed by a crips wonderfull hop bitterness which shifts to the back of the palate and leaves a really nice dry and appleskin-like aftertaste with moderate bittnerness. Full body but so easy to drink..I drank this in the time it took me to write this post. Cant wait to try her after 2-3 weeks...if it lasts  

This one is actually a little similar to knappstein.

Very nice!

Its all over, im hooked, condemed to brew AG and drink quality beer for the rest of my life. :chug: +1 to the list cause im never going back.

P.S: Apparent Attenuation finnished at 90.1%


----------



## phonos

PostModern said:


> From the theory that Dr K is preaching, the worts should be dextrinous. ie in thin mashes the alpha amylase will perform at a normal rate, but beta amylase will be retarded, thus leaving longer sugar chains that the yeast can't ferment, thus leaving sweeter, underattenuated beers. From what people are posting, this doesn't seem to be actually happening.



I don't know if its safe to bring this up again :unsure: , but I was reading this article which mentions that a "Thin mash dilutes concentration of enzymes slowing conversion, but leads to a more fermentable mash because the enzymes were not inhibited by a high concentration of sugar."

Could it be that it is actually correct that BIABers are finding good attenuation from their beers because although beta amylase is retarded do to the lower concentration, this is balanced by the lower concentration of sugar, allowing more "complete" conversion?


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Phonos said:


> I don't know if its safe to bring this up again :unsure: , but I was reading this article which mentions that a "Thin mash dilutes concentration of enzymes slowing conversion, but leads to a more fermentable mash because the enzymes were not inhibited by a high concentration of sugar."
> 
> Could it be that it is actually correct that BIABers are finding good attenuation from their beers because although beta amylase is retarded do to the lower concentration, this is balanced by the lower concentration of sugar, allowing more "complete" conversion?



Exactly !!! I pointed this (possible) effect out in an earlier post, but it seems to have gotten a bit lost in some of the shouting thats happened here since last I looked.

At risk of kicking it all off again, I'll shove in my 2 cent's worth (besides, I missed the chance to stir the pot before due to being away on holidays)

Firstly, I need to take a little offence. A little offence on behalf of the word science. Science has been being tossed about this thread recently as though it were the pointy end of a spear. There is another word starting with S that is appropriate for the situations I have seen science shoe-horned into lately, and its scripture. "The big book with all the knowledge in it tells us that it must be so.... and therefore it IS so" Sorry, but that isn't the science that I studied at university! It certainly isn't the science that is responsible for discovering new and wonderful things that make us re-evaluate the stuff that we thought we new. Science is about testing in a controlled fashion, looking at your results and coming up with a theory to explain your observations (not necessarily in that order) if your theory fails to match the observed results, then no matter how much pre-existing knowledge and experience says that its correct, it isn't.

So in the context of this thread. If "science" tells us that a very thin mash will always lead to an overly dextrinous wort, then any (repeatable of course) example where this does not happen means that the "science" is wrong. Doesn't matter how many times it DID produce a dextrinous wort, one time where it doesn't and the theory is wrong. Period, no dancing around objecting, just wrong.

So you put your thinking cap on and try to work out why. Do some more experiments, refine your ideas till what you think and what you see match. And when it does, and you're finally right; here's a clue. Writing it down in a textbook doesn't mean it will still be right tomorrow. NO matter how much you might wish it did.

Sorry. Rant over.

Couple of more practical points to privide food for thought on some of the very real concerns that have been presented with regards to Full Volume Mashing.

*Beta enzymes* - They still work just fine in thin mash. As pointed out by Phonos, more slowly, but in the end both they and the alphas will actually convert more completely because they aren't inhibited by their own byproducts. Thin mashes will however make them significantly more vulnerable to temperature variations. There also seems to be some confusion between optimum temps and de-naturing. Just because Betas dont work all that well at higher temps, that doesn't mean they have all been killed off. Take the temp back down into their range and there will be more than enough left over to start working again. I've done a reverse mash where I started at 70C and let the mash tun cool down to 62 over an hour or so. If all the Betas were denatured at the higher temps my wort would have been virtually unfermentable. But it wasn't. (see next point)

*Alpha enzymes* - Help Beta enzymes to work!! Think about it. Betas bite small fermentable (Maltose) sugars off the ends of starch chains. Alphas attack the starch chains randomly. They might bite off a glucose, or they might just knock it in half into 2 dextrines. Each time they knock a starch molecule into 2 dextrines, there are more ends for the Beta enzymes to work on. this is why if you mash low for a fermentable wort, you need to give it a bit of time. Betas only nibble away, but the alphas give them more ends to chew on. Single infusion mashes at compromise temperatures work just because of this.

*Sweetness in beer* - (Warning, I'm far from 100% sure that this is in fact true) Its my understanding that dextrines dont actually taste sweet !! They add body and mouthfeel to a beer, but they dont actually add sweetness. The sweetness is a result of fermentable sugars that the yeast have failed to ferment for whatever reason. I've tasted pretty much everything that I've put into a beer, and the dextrine based "body" improvers that my LHBS carries certainly dont taste sweet at all. Neither do any of the beers that I have brewed at higher temperatures to give them a dextrinous character, have indeed finished out with a higher FG and a heavier body, but yet, not sweet. This would mean that if you experience sweetness in your beer, its a result of something other that mash derived dextrines and high L:G ratios aren't the cause. If you know better than me, please correct me on this.

*Conversion* - Jeez, modern malts are so well modified that you have to go looking for a malt that makes it anything other than an exercise in bloody mindedness to do a decoction on! We all know that the greatest part of the conversion action is over in 20mins. So maybe BIAB takes twice as long?? Still less than the 60mins that most people mash for anyway. PM suggested that it might be a good idea to use a really High DP malt like galaxy if you want to go with BIAB. In general I suspect that that is playing it overly safe. On the other hand... if you are talking about brewing a beer with lots of adjunct, or at the ends of the amalayse temperature ranges, I think that that might be really good advice. If BIAB is a bit harsh on enzymes, throw more at it !! Hell, its not like Galaxy is a base malt you want to avoid.

Enough. Those are a few facts (sort of and I hope) about mashing and conversion. None of them I believe contradict the facts that have been presented by (among others) Dr K; and yet I draw a different conclusion than he does about what they mean with regard to BIAB. Oh well, thats science for you.

I say lets keep trying. There simply isn't enough experience out there to tell one way or the other. As we go along, we will find out new things. People will decide that BIAB isn't giving them the results they want, and they will move on (already happened) others will decide that the ease of the method tempts them away from their mash tun. The first people who decided that they didn't need to do a decotion mash were probably nailed to the side of a brewery because you couldn't possibly make good beer any other way. But in the end they were right. Maybe BIAB will be such a step for home brewing. Maybe it will just be a side excursion that leads us all back to our mash tuns. We will be the wiser in either case.

I for one like the ease of the BIAB method enough, that I plan to conduct all my "pilot" brewing in this fashion. 10 or so litre batches to try out new styles and new recipes. Hopefully the process of translating the recipes developed using BIAB to my 3 vessle system for full sized batches will give a good comparison of the results produced by the 2 methods. Will they be the same? probably not. But the same recipe brewed on 2 different systems is never the same. Question is, will the difference be bigger between BIAB and non than between 2 non-BIAB systems?? 

I hope BIAB turns out to be an ongoing viable method for producing great beer. The evidence so far suggests that it at the very least has great potential as a bridge between K&K/extract and AG brewing. The ease and low entry cost are powerful attractants for people who want to step up. Can I make beer this way that is as good as I could make on a 3 vessle system??? Only time will tell.

Thirsty


----------



## Finite

Wonderfull post Thirsty :excl: :beerbang: 

Really cleared alot of things up for me regarding this method. Im going to be brewing my 3rd BIAB tomorrow and I keep finding that my attenuation is very good and im having no off results by having a thinner liqour to grist ratio.

I will ask one thing however. Baised on what you have said here, how long would you sudgest to do a mash for using a single infusion with BIAB? At the moment im doing 90min mashes.


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## Thirsty Boy

Finite said:


> ......how long would you sudgest to do a mash for using a single infusion with BIAB? At the moment im doing 90min mashes.



Not really sure.... I would guess that 60mins would be enough. But if you are already doing 90mins why change? stick with 90mins to be on the safe side, get a few brews down the track and re-brew a recipe with only a 60min mash (everythig else the same) and see what happens. Tell me what effect it has and then we'll both know 

Edit - PS: One more thing about BIAB. People keep saying that squeezing the bag will extract tannins. Why? Why would it? If it does, why aren't they extracted when a commercial Thin Bed Mash Filter physically compresses the grain bed in order to squeeze out residual wort? No answers for this one, just questions.


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## Ross

Great posts yet again Thirstyboy - unbiased, informative, constructive... :super: 

cheers Ross

P.S. where are you based?


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## The King of Spain

Thirsty Boy

Thanks, great post. With you all the way on "science". Funny how poeple think science is a perscriptive thing and forget the observation, learn and re-evaluate part of the cycle. Its pretty hard as a single brewer to conduct an experement that could be described as statisticaly significant so people like me rely on people like you. I was going to do a conventional dough in mash volume with my first recepie to compare but can't realy see the point. What would it prove anyway.

Finite

Don't drink it all too soon. My first AG had a similar fate you yours. What could not get any better did.

60min vs 90min. No difference with same recepie at all.

Cheers


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## Thirsty Boy

Ross said:


> P.S. where are you based?



Thanks Ross. I'm an inner urban Melbourne boy. 20mins walk to the GPO.


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## Finite

3rd AG over and in the no chill Imperial IPA, feels like a baby @ 106 IBU in compared to some of the brews the nutbags on here are making.  Started this one at 5pm this arvo so im gunna hit the hay but ive got some photos ill post tomorrow. Whole thing was smooth as and hit my temps and planned OG on the button.

I will say before I go that I might do 1 or 2 BIAB's but will be working toward a standard 3 vessle system and hopefully will have one going before I go back to uni... My reasoning is not that BIAB doesnt make good beers, it does, so dont get the wrong idea but it can be a bit of a hassle when making strong brews. I found today that 9.21kg of wet hot grist weighs alot and was a bit of a pain in the arse to move around.

The method is fantasic for someone with a small area, more standard gravity beers or smaller batches. I wouldnt be doing AG without BIAB so its has been a wonderfull stepping stone for me but I have the kegs and for the moment, the time so im looking forward to a 3 vessle setup.

Other than the main question is...can it make good beer? The answer of course is hell yes! :beerbang:


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## FNQ Bunyip

Ross said:


> Great posts yet again Thirstyboy - unbiased, informative, constructive... :super:



Thanks thirstyboy , Great post..


60 mins V 90 mins use your refractometer to keep an eye on the gravity. if it stops riseing after each stir up, I call it done... 

:beer:


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## Finite

Some photos from my brew day yesterday:




Burnerness



Heating sparge water



Messuring hops



Organised brewer is a good brewer



Adding the bag



Doughing in



Stabilising mash temp, (difficult with a falty thermometer)



Stiring the mash



9.21kg of wet grain weighs ALOT



The boil



brewing is bloody hard work B) 



She be airated



The wort

And thats it, hope the pictures help anyone who wants to try BIAB or just likes pictures. As I mentioned im working on getting my 3 vessle setup going over the next month or so. BIAB has proved it can make great beer. I have found however it gets pretty difficult when brewing high gravity beers.

Brew on,

Blake


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## Thirsty Boy

Great Pics Finite.

I was going to post some photos of my new years day brew day. Taught a friend that had never brewed more than K&K to do BIAB. But.... the pictures are so similar to yours, that its hardly worth it.

You are right about high gravity beers and BIAB though. We did an IPA with 7.5kg of grain, and while it was a snap with 2 of us there, I can see it would be a bit difficult with only one.

I suppose you could always rig up a winch or something, which I realize others have done, but it sort of takes away from the simplicity and lack of equipment that is the main feature of BIAB. Or not. Depends on your situation I suppose.

Has anyone else done a BIAB with more kgs of grain than finite?? I wonder where the practical limit is going to be.


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## Finite

yeah i used a pully system (not in shot) that was attached to the pagola and it was still very very heavy. I would say for the average person 5-6kg of grain would be a managable amout...above that with one person it gets harder.


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## eric8

Finite,
great pics! i am thinking of trying BIAB, so they sure helped a lot. I am wondering whether a converted keg or pot is easier to use? Is that a nasa burner you used? 
Beer looked great too
Eric


----------



## Finite

*Some Findings from my BIAB experience so far:

*Im hoping you can help me out on this one thirsty.

I have had an interesting find regarding efficiency and amount of grain. Ive done 3 BIAB brews now and each time I have used more grain the efficiency has dropped.

1st brew was a small batch of English PA (15L) and I only had 3.2kg of grain. - Efficiency into boiler was 70%
2nd brew was a porter with 5.7kg of grain. - efficiency into boiler was 65%
3rd brew was a IIPA with 9.21kg of grain. - efficiency into boiler was 60%

Now im not really sure what this could be. Its interesting because as I used more grain the amount of strike water I used (with the acception of the 1st brew) stayed the same, which means that my liquor to grist ratio lowered. Mash temp of 66c was used for all brews and mash time of 90min was also consistent across all brews.

Liquor/grain ratio was as follows:

1st brew it was 6.88L/kg - Apparent attenuation = 90.4%
2nd brew it was 5.34L/kg - Apparent attenuation (10 days) = 78.8%
3rd brew it was 3.47L/kg (a more conventional liquor to grist ratio) - Pitched today (12/01/07 but will update)

*Personal taste findings:

*I have personally tasted the spent grain from all the brews and found the following:

1st brew: little residual sweetness remaining in the grain, husky and bland.
2nd brew: detectable sweetness in the spent grains
3rd brew: sweetest of them all still quite allot of sweetness left in the grain.

Ive only scratched the surface in terms learning about malting, conversion, extraction etc... so I really need someone else to take my findings and make some sense out of it but my conclusion is that the more grain I use the lower my efficiency. Could it be that the rich sugars of a higher gravity beer are being contained in a more concentrated amount in the grain bag area? If so I should probably take a SG reading of my bag draining for my next brew and compare with the gravity of the wort in the kettle.

The fact of not sparging using the BIAB method has always been on my mind. From my findings so far I would (with a very limited knowledge compared to some) say that for lower gravity beers using the BIAB method produces a very good if not excellent efficiency. Pat reported an efficiency of 88.4% for an English bitter and I achieved an efficiency of 70% into boiler for my first AG. Maybe I (or someone else) could try mashing with a traditional liquor/grist ratio then steeping (dunking) the spend grain bag in another vessel with the remaining liquor to effectively sparge the bag of its remaining sugars.

Im getting the feeling that the most concentrated volume of wort is becoming trapped inside the grain bag area and not staying in the liquid. From personal observations I have noticed that there is still a quite a bit of liquor that could be strained or squeezed out of the grain bag after draining. Even last night I squeezed over 8L out and I could have very easierly extracted more. I ended up adding an extra 6L to the kettle before the boil which means that the grain was holding that much sweet wort which would usually be removed via sparging.

This is all food for thought and I think its time for another beer, (2 Nelson Sauvin's have been downed in the typing of this). At least I'm making up for Pats post quota.

Prost,
Blake :beerbang:


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## Finite

eric8 said:


> Finite,
> great pics! i am thinking of trying BIAB, so they sure helped a lot. I am wondering whether a converted keg or pot is easier to use? Is that a nasa burner you used?
> Beer looked great too
> Eric



Pot would be easier for BIAB. I find trying to pull the bag of grain out of the neck (where I cut the top off the keg) is quite difficult if there is alot of grain, for standard gravity beers the keg is fine. That all depends of whether you plan to move on to a traditional system eventually. Personaly I have always planned on having a traditional 3 vessle system so BIAB was more of a stepping stone.

The burner is a 3 ring.


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## blackbock

Finite,

Am looking at doing a BIAB in the near future with a very similar setup to yours. Can I ask what you used to hold the bag over the edge of the keg, i.e what stops it from sinking down into the kettle during mashing?

Also, can anyone describe (quickly) their bag design. I have read a lot about this, but not yet seen a closeup pic of the bag used.

Beergards,

Blackbock


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## Finite

Blackbock,

Snapped some pictures for you, and in the process found some photos I took from my first AG BIAB in which I didnt use a camping mat. Basicly I just wet the ends of the bag so it sits around the side of the kettle then put a camping mat over that then wrap with some rope, you could also do what I did for my first AG and just tie some rope around it and forget the camping mat, elastic in the top of the bag or around the side would also work, so would some okky straps.

The bag design i used is very simply a rectangle double the length of your tun + 60 cm with the width the diameter of your tun + 10cm. I made it out of muslin cloth as my local lincraft didnt have Swiss violate ivory which is what is prefered but mine drains fine and holds up very well under weight. I asked my girlfriends mother  to stich it for me, she stiched the sides then used one of those edging thingys where it makes it neat, see the pics. I also made up a diagram showing the basic design.



the design



The stiching (thanks karren!)



inside the bag



long shot of whole bag



stabilising temp



mashing, showing bag held on with rope....OH no!! 0.1c off  .....ahhhh RDWHANHB B) 

Hope it helps,

Prost,
Blake :chug:


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## The King of Spain

Finite

You are totally in the grip of it are'nt you. If I had the resources of this site and I guess the internet in general when I was at uni I would be the same. About 20 yrs ago we brewed kits with sugar and lots of them (when I was at uni). Horrid stuff but within budget. It was not until a bloke bought a bottle of Micro brew into my work to convince me he was not a desperado that I got back into it. Good on you mate. Spead the word, and for one thing you will be popular.

Cheers


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## Finite

deaves said:


> Finite
> 
> You are totally in the grip of it are'nt you



Guilty as charged mate :beerbang:


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## blackbock

Thanks Finite,

that's solved one puzzle for me! Much appreciated.


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## Thirsty Boy

Finite,

Thanks for the observations and numbers. A couple of things that I think might go a little way to explaining your experience.

BIAB has 3 distinct features that are "unusual" It uses the full volume of liquor during the mash process resulting in a *high L:G ratio*, it is *No-Sparge* and it uses only *1 vessel* in order to save space, complexity and money. Pretty much all of them would contribute to the results you have seen.

Your comment that you tasted the spent grains and noticed different levels of sweetness seems to be the key here. Its not about the mashing process, thats working fine or there wouldn't be sweetness to taste. Its about the lautering process, which in the case of BIAB means no sparge.

*No sparge* brewing isn't exactly unusual in its own right. Lots of people do it. Some do it because its believed that the less sparging a mash gets, the maltier and smoother the flavour of the beer. No sparging being at one end of the scale and oversparged harsh watery astringent beers at the other. Other people do it simply because it saves time and effort and just costs a few more $$ for the increased amount of grain/litre of finished beer. The no sparge method is simply to mash at a traditional L:G and at the end of the mash add all the remaining liquor required for your volumes to the mash tun, stir the bejeezuz out of it, recirc till it clears and drain to the kettle. Thats it. BIAB is different in that we dont use a HLT and therefore have nowhere to heat/store the extra liquor. So it all goes in at the start.

Most people who No-sparge get somewhere around 55-65% efficiency. When BIAB idea was first being tossed about in this thread, I suspected and I imagine that most others did as well, that this is the sort of efficiencies that we were going to see. I think that there was almost universal surprise when efficiencies of 75+ were reported from the guys who did the first batches. Using a finer crush will certainly increase efficiency and BIAB means you dont have a problem lautering finely crushed grist. So that would be a major contributing factor. Apart from that, I dont really know why BIAB seems to be more efficient than No-sparge. It shouldn't be, and yet it is. Go figure. 

In no-sparge, batch sparge and BAIB, the sugars aren't gently rinsed out by a flow of water. They are bashed out into solution by a vigorous stirring, then just drained off. This is why these methods cant hope to be as efficient as a properly running fly-sparge set up. Any liquid that stays trapped in the grain, should contain the same concentration of sugar as the wort being run off. So some sugar gets left behind no matter what you do. With fly sparging, ultimately you could have it so the liquid trapped by the grain was pure water, with all the sugar rinsed out and run off. Nothing left behind. Of course, by then you would have a kettle full of tannins, but it would be 100% efficient.

Lets think about the numbers here. Take a 20 litre batch of BIAB, with 5kg of grain. Allowing for evap you want around 24 litres in the kettle. So you need to allow around 29 litres of liquor because the grain will absorb about 1litre/kg of your liquid. Near enough. So you dough in, mash for the hour, take out your bag and let it drain for a while and you hit your numbers perfectly. 24litres in the kettle. _But the liquid absorbed by your grain has just as much sugar in it as the liquid in the kettle!!!_ So... that means that 5/24 x 100 = 21.83% of your sugar is still in the bag. Your best case scenario is 79.16% efficiency.

Do the numbers again with a 10kg grist and you get 10/24 x 100 = 41.67 % left in the bag with a maximum possible efficiency of 58.33%

If you give the bag a good squeeze (please do, I dont see ANY reason why it should extract tanins) and adjust your calculations for less absorbtion by the grain; it will improve the numbers, but it still wont stop the incremental decrease in efficiency as the amount of grain goes up.

You mentioned that you thought that the concentration of sugr in the grain bag area might be higher than the concentration of the rest of the wort. If this were so it would certainly make the situation worse. And looking at your grain bag set up, I can see that it might happen to you. Your bag seems to be distinctly away from the edges of your pot. This means that there are inded two seperate zones in your mash. In the bag and out of the bag. In his guide, Pistol Patch reccomends that you make your bag big enough to "line" your pot. Mine is set up that way, and while there is a bit of floating about, the entire volume of liquid is in the In the bag zone, only the liquid undeneath the rack I have to keep the bag away from the flame is in the Out of the bag zone. I stir the absolute buggery (without splashing!) out of the whole thing during the mash, and ESPECIALLY just before removing the bag, precisely to make sure that the concentration of sugar is evenly spread.

So...... The whole increase in grain bill = decrease in efficiency thing is something you are going to have to learn to live with I'm afraid. Even after you make your planned move to a 3 vessle system, if you are going to No-sparge or Batch sparge, it will still happen.

Things that will improve your efficiency for now are:

A looser fit for your grain bag
Vigorous stirring before pulling the bag
Squeeze that bag (I'd calculate for only 0.6litres/kg absorbtion and see how your volumes work out)
Finer Crush (crush till you're scared!)

Your concern about the no-sparging and the idea about dunking the bag has lead me to an epiphany. So I'm going to end this post with the hope that I have maybe helped a bit and ask you to see the next post for my ultimate solution to all the woes and worries of BIAB (well maybe)

I gotta learn to type faster

Thirsty


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## Thirsty Boy

*Normal Mash Volume, No extra Vessle, Batch Sparged ---- BIAB*

Why BIAB? - *Save Space *(only one vessle), *Save Money *(No need to buy/build a mash tun and HLT), *Save Time and complexity* (no inconvenient, complex Vorlauf - Sparge rigmarole)

Why not BIAB? - *Extreme Liquor to Grist ratio* (all sorts of potential conversion and fermentbility issues) *Poor Efficiency* (no sparging means potentially poor extraction rates, with very low efficiencies wtih large grain bills)

OK, so what if we can retain most of the whys of BIAB, but remove the worst of the why nots? How about this?

What most of us have been forgetting is that BIAB doesn't use just one vessle, it uses 2 !! Unless you are _fermenting_ in your kettle at any rate. You have already paid for your fermentor; and it already takes up space. So lets use that puppy to solve our problems. Here's how.
In your kettle heat up a bit less than the total amount of liquor needed to near _boiling_. Drain 2/3rds or so into your fermentor.
Wrap fermentor up in some blankets so that it wont cool down too much during the mash.
Add some cold water to your kettle, juggle till you have the right volume for a "normal" Liquor to Grist ratio at dough in; and your temp is either at or lower than needed for strike. Heat up if required
Stick in your bag and dough in. Mash as you normally would.
At the end of your mash, check the temp of the water in your fermentor. Having started at near boiling, hopefully it will still be hot enough to sparge with.
Pull your bag out of the pot, squeeze/drain as per normal.
Check your kettle volume.
If needed, add cold water to the fermentor to cool down to sparge temps.
Drain water out of fermentor until the volume that remains is equal to the amount that needs to be added to your kettle to reach correct pre-boil volume.
Grab your Grain Bag, and drop it into the Fermentor. Give the grain a good stirring around and maybe leave it for 5 minutes before stirring again
Pull bag out of fermentor. Drain/squeeze as before. You just did a BIAB batch sparge.
Pour the quasi second runnings into your kettle to achieve proper pre-boill volume
Proceed with your boil as per normal
There you go. Now we are mashing at a normal L:G ratio and we get to sparge as well. So the why nots are pretty much taken care of. We didn't have to buy any extra gear over Full Volume No sparge BIAB and although its a little bit more complex, its not a lot. You just need to juggle the volumes and temps a bit. Of course if you are lazy, you could still just skip the sparging bit and just top your kettle up to pre-boil volume before you pull the bag.

Whaddayareckon?

Thirsty


----------



## lucas

Thirsty Boy said:


> Whaddayareckon?


Very interesting Idea but I'd want to hear more about the mircobiological side of things. I'm sure I've read somewhere before that you shouldnt put cracked grain in your fermenter as it contains nasty stuff (lacto-something-or-other?) thats almost impossible to kill without a good boil. I think in context the thread was saying dont use your fermenter to catch whats coming out of your grain mill because you wont be able to use it as a fermenter again, but I'm not sure I'd be putting unboiled wort in a fermenter either.

unrelated to that though, I'm giving BIAB another shot. I got my kettle and 5 kg of grains on wednesday so I can finally try a full volume boil. I was planning on using a BIAB style bag in my mash tun instead of mucking about with an easy hooker, but I didnt get around to replacing the tap on the cooler yet so I'm just going to do it the BIAB way instead. first AG here I come


----------



## Finite

Thirsty,

Thanks for a very good post. It made alot of sence and answered all my questions well.

The use of a fermenter to sparge is a good idea, if what lucas says isnt an issue I might try this for the next batch.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

> Very interesting Idea but I'd want to hear more about the mircobiological side of things. I'm sure I've read somewhere before that you shouldnt put cracked grain in your fermenter as it contains nasty stuff (lacto-something-or-other?) thats almost impossible to kill without a good boil. I think in context the thread was saying dont use your fermenter to catch whats coming out of your grain mill because you wont be able to use it as a fermenter again, but I'm not sure I'd be putting unboiled wort in a fermenter either.



Good point. Hadn't thought of that. Malt is covered in lacto bugs.

The wort/grain is going to be pretty effectively pasturized after spending an hour at temperatures around 65C and then the water in the fermentor is going to be at 78ish when you dunk in your grains, and with a good sanitise while the wort was boiling, I dont think it would be too much of a problem.... but then again it might.

I'm seriously thinking about doing exactly what you plan to do with your mash tun. Combining the lautering ease of the bag with my 3 vessle system. I have an easy hooker set up at the moment and it works just fine, but I suspect the bag will work better! 

For your brew, instead of replacing the tap, as a temp solution you could heat a bit of clear pvc tubing in some boiling water and force it through the drain plug of your eski. Then just hold the end of the tube above the liquid level til you ar ready to drain. It should seal up fine, Grain and Grape in Melb sells budget plastic bucket AG rigs that are set up like that and they seem to work perfectly well. Because you are using the bag, you could even just use the eski's drain plug and aim carefully. Might burn yourself though, be careful.

Thanks for the feedback.

Thirsty


----------



## The King of Spain

Thirsty - you could of course use a second boiler. I've have done this using a smaller boiler I used for my single extract brew. I did not bother today after reading your post (more ends to chew on etc - makes sense). I did not hit my gravities but i did forget the calcium suphate... so no conclusion

Cheers


----------



## Darren

Thirsty Boy said:


> Not really sure.... I would guess that 60mins would be enough. But if you are already doing 90mins why change? stick with 90mins to be on the safe side, get a few brews down the track and re-brew a recipe with only a 60min mash (everythig else the same) and see what happens. Tell me what effect it has and then we'll both know
> 
> Edit - PS: One more thing about BIAB. People keep saying that squeezing the bag will extract tannins. Why? Why would it? If it does, why aren't they extracted when a commercial Thin Bed Mash Filter physically compresses the grain bed in order to squeeze out residual wort? No answers for this one, just questions.




Hey thirsty,

I saw this topic from the beginning but have missed most of it since then. You are not Pistol patch are you? If not I am sure you would get along well together  

The main reason that I am posting is because i also had thoughts years ago about tannins in HB.

Everyone told me that too fine a crush would not work. At the time i was using a kitchen food processor (I now advise NOT to use the one that SWMBO uses as you will probably scratch the plastic, A local second-hand shop is the go for newbie grain "crushing").

With the BIAB method there is little chance of extracting tannins even with a "squeeeze". 

There is no sparge with this method but just a thick mash, correct?

Anyone ever underlet the BIAB?

cheers

Darren


----------



## Ross

Darren said:


> Anyone ever underlet the BIAB?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



Darren, BIAB is done in one vessel & the water is preheated in that vessel, so makes underletting a little difficult.

Cheers Ross


----------



## Darren

Ross said:


> Darren, BIAB is done in one vessel & the water is preheated in that vessel, so makes underletting a little difficult.
> 
> Cheers Ross



Ross,

I see, a bit hit and miss on temperature? I saw some posts on under attenuation?

BIAB could be used for step mashing if you could keep the burner going.

Heat the pot a little low (65C) drop the grain in. Keep the heat on. Raise to temp ot 65-68. Stir. Raise to 75. Pull bag out. Sqeeze once (or drain).

Start the brew  

Fermentabilty is the result of initial mash temps (15 mins) rather than the whole 90 mins. Enzymes break down very easily. Once they are dead they cannot be repaired. 

You definately should use a good thermometer for this method too. (Glass ones break easily. Digital are around the same price).

What I mean is, if you want fermentable wort (lager/pils) then "dough- in" a lower mash temps (61-65). If you want dextrinous wort (English/Irish ale) aim for 68-73C.


Keep this in mind and I cant see why it would not work!

cheers

Darren


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Darren said:


> Ross,
> 
> I see, a bit hit and miss on temperature? I saw some posts on under attenuation?
> 
> BIAB could be used for step mashing if you could keep the burner going.
> 
> Heat the pot a little low (65C) drop the grain in. Keep the heat on. Raise to temp ot 65-68. Stir. Raise to 75. Pull bag out. Sqeeze once (or drain).
> 
> Start the brew
> 
> Fermentabilty is the result of initial mash temps (15 mins) rather than the whole 90 mins. Enzymes break down very easily. Once they are dead they cannot be repaired.
> 
> You definately should use a good thermometer for this method too. (Glass ones break easily. Digital are around the same price).
> 
> What I mean is, if you want fermentable wort (lager/pils) then "dough- in" a lower mash temps (61-65). If you want dextrinous wort (English/Irish ale) aim for 68-73C.
> Keep this in mind and I cant see why it would not work!
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



Darren,

I wont go into the fermentability/enzymes thing. Its been done to death in this thread big time by myself and others. Not that there is actual agreement, just lots of discussion  

BIAB isn't a thick mash, just the opposite, its an ultra thin mash.

Actually, its pretty easy to hit your temps with BIAB because the liquor to grist ratio is so high, the thermal impact of putting your grain into the water is quite minimal. Plug the numbers into the promash strike temp calculator and hit your temps on the head (within 0.5C) has been my experience so far.

Although I havent, I believe that step mashing has been tried out by other BIABers and that you just need to watch yourself if you are using a Nasa Burner because you might melt the bag.

I aint Pistol Patch, but think that you are right, I reckon I would get along with him and look forward to the chance of having a beer with him one of these days.

About the tannins... My main reason for not really believing that tannins would be a problem from either a fine crush, or from squeezing, is that breweries who Thin Bed Mash Filter lautering systems (used in europe quite a bit) finely crush, in fact hammer mill to powder, their grist and ALSO squezze the grain bed pretty damn hard in order to squeeze out wort and minimise volume/weight of spent grain to dispose of. The extraction of tannins wasn't even mentioned as a concern in the text I studied. My guess is that if the ph is OK and the temp isn't too high, you couldn't squeeze the grist hard enough by hand to extract any significant amount of tannins.

Of course, thats just my reasoning. I'd love ot hear from someone who believes otherwise because I really dont understand the whole tannin extraction thing all that well. Dont want to go telling people to squeeze if I'm just full of shit (even though I already have.. oops)

Thirsty


----------



## The King of Spain

I have done 3 brews using Notts. My last one I used US56 with an ale and I did not expect to see an FG as good as Ive got using Notts (between 1008-1010). I did a long mash (as I was occupied with lawns). I finished mowing and realised that I forgot my calcium suphate so added and flamed it up and let it go another hour so total mash was 2.5hours. I was not overly impressed with the SG which was 1042 from memory. The gravity today was 1007. I have calibrated for temperature and have even tested my hydrometer with water at 19C. I've tested twice to for sanity... 

Only other thing done different was I used Kopperflock - gives a different dimention to the cold break. Last few brews I had gunk up to the tap after a cold chill. This time I got less than half of that. Don't know if thats it.

Over to better brains then mine for comment. Seems very low from what I have read about US56....

PS beer tastes great. No off flavours at all, you could keg it and drink now.

Edit note - was 3.6KG MO ale and .4KG wheat. I downloading ProMash so better info from here on...


----------



## Ross

Deaves, 

Sounds pretty well spot on to me  US-56 attenuates very well, especially with a coolish mash. I get from 1085 down to 1010. Is there a problem with the beer? If not, just enjoy it :chug: 

cheers Ross


----------



## Kai

Thirsty Boy said:


> About the tannins... My main reason for not really believing that tannins would be a problem from either a fine crush, or from squeezing, is that breweries who Thin Bed Mash Filter lautering systems (used in europe quite a bit) finely crush, in fact hammer mill to powder, their grist and ALSO squezze the grain bed pretty damn hard in order to squeeze out wort and minimise volume/weight of spent grain to dispose of. The extraction of tannins wasn't even mentioned as a concern in the text I studied. My guess is that if the ph is OK and the temp isn't too high, you couldn't squeeze the grist hard enough by hand to extract any significant amount of tannins.
> 
> Of course, thats just my reasoning. I'd love ot hear from someone who believes otherwise because I really dont understand the whole tannin extraction thing all that well. Dont want to go telling people to squeeze if I'm just full of shit (even though I already have.. oops)
> 
> Thirsty



Ultimately, if you want to squeeze you bag then squeeze away and decide for yourself whether or not it tastes bad. There are many variables in brewing based on scale and equipment and theoretical speculation will only carry so far.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Kai said:


> Ultimately, if you want to squeeze you bag then squeeze away and decide for yourself whether or not it tastes bad. There are many variables in brewing based on scale and equipment and theoretical speculation will only carry so far.



Too true. All the speculation in the world doesn't stand up to a bit of experience. I certainly dont have enough BIAB brews under my belt to have accumulated the experience required to back up my reasoning with regard to bag squeezing (that just sounds wrong...) I do however squeeze, or press really, my grain bed in my mash tun for the same set of reasons and haven't had a problem that i have noticed with tannins in my beer.

Actually, thats really one of the reasons I was asking for differing oppinions etc. Trying to work out if I have just been lucky so far 

Guess I'll just keep on squeezing/pressing till I either prove myself wrong or convince myself that I'm right.

So much to learn..... So little time to brew


----------



## Bijengum

lucas said:


> Very interesting Idea but I'd want to hear more about the mircobiological side of things. I'm sure I've read somewhere before that you shouldnt put cracked grain in your fermenter as it contains nasty stuff (lacto-something-or-other?) thats almost impossible to kill without a good boil. I think in context the thread was saying dont use your fermenter to catch whats coming out of your grain mill because you wont be able to use it as a fermenter again, but I'm not sure I'd be putting unboiled wort in a fermenter either.
> 
> unrelated to that though, I'm giving BIAB another shot. I got my kettle and 5 kg of grains on wednesday so I can finally try a full volume boil. I was planning on using a BIAB style bag in my mash tun instead of mucking about with an easy hooker, but I didnt get around to replacing the tap on the cooler yet so I'm just going to do it the BIAB way instead. first AG here I come




How about using your bulk priming container(25l bucket). This would keep any bugs away from your fermenter and would appear to be the same as batch sparging.


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## dr K

Well....it took a bit of pot stirring and this is the first time I have revisited this topic since before Christmas 2006 so its not that I have not wanted to reply I have just not read the posts, so excuse this for being a little long and a little quote filled... from post #280


> The base line is that you guys are actually on to something very very good, something that could actually make as big a cahnge to home brewing as the Pap a Zap, you are just going the wrong way and unless you open that other eye you will never ever know, will you???
> So stop thinking that you are the new wave and look around.
> 
> Kynically Yours...
> Kurtz
> 
> ps.....it will work, just think really hard !!!



to post #282


> ahhh who cares about what dr k says, this is just some plonker how hasn't presented a beer for taste testing to any group, and is probably somebody with a personality too unpleasant too even turn up to a brewers' meeting.
> 
> people like this obviously post when they've had one too many tooheys news and are up for a fight from the safety of their armchairs.



I am well known to many members of this forum, who may, or of course may not say otherwise but I digress...
#285 from Blake


> Dr K. Would you sudgest mashing at a standard water : grain ratio and then topping up with hot water before boiling?


#286 from PostModern


> Lads, dough in with a "traditional" liquor/grist ratio of about 2.5L/Kg then mash for an hour, then add the rest of the water. Will give the beta amylase time to work in a sensible liquor:grist ratio then the additional water will allow you to soak out a little extra sugar. Your efficiency is never going to be great with BIAB, but at least with a sane or "traditional" liquor:grist ratio, you might get some decent tasting beer.
> 
> Cheers and a Beery Xmas to you all.
> 
> PoMo.



There was some discussion about thin mashes though thinness was not defined and without going through the whole beta destruction argument again, a normal brewer would describe a thin mash as say 3.5:1, not double that. Certainly as the sugar concentration in a mash increases the enzyme activity decreases and you may also interested to know that whilst as the mash temp increases (again within a normal band) so does the efficiency, we are only talking single percents or so in either case...

and ..Finally...(almost) from #338


> Your concern about the no-sparging and the idea about dunking the bag has lead me to an epiphany. So I'm going to end this post with the hope that I have maybe helped a bit and ask you to see the next post for my ultimate solution to all the woes and worries of BIAB (well maybe)
> 
> I gotta learn to type faster
> 
> Thirsty



and #339



> There you go. Now we are mashing at a normal L:G ratio and we get to sparge as well. So the why nots are pretty much taken care of. We didn't have to buy any extra gear over Full Volume No sparge BIAB and although its a little bit more complex, its not a lot. You just need to juggle the volumes and temps a bit. Of course if you are lazy, you could still just skip the sparging bit and just top your kettle up to pre-boil volume before you pull the bag.
> 
> Whaddayareckon?
> 
> Thirsty



So..there you have it...I pointed out in my Dec 24 post that you were headed in right direction but just on the wrong road, Blake and Post Modern cottoned on pretty much straight away, I got mud thrown at me (in some cases it was just a return of what I had slung).
So is born the MBIAB...will it work..well against all odds in some eye (s) BIAB did so..
Can I see any problems, from a brewing process no, from an equipment process...well..in a previous life I sold a lot of rag, hectares of it probably, so I have some knowledge about textiles, these bags, particularly if made from calico or worse muslin are going to degrade, and fairly quickly waht with the combination of heat, moisture, mechanical force..the weight of the grain..and possibly some laxness in so far as cleaning and washing and drying straight way and the various moulds that will form..and one day, soon, without warning the bag, probably on lifting will split and totally bag your brew man.
Some suggestions:
Use a high quality textile (I suggest Trevira CS) for your bag.
Crack as coarsely as your mill will allow.
Do your "mash" at 3:1 L:G
Use some removable insulation during the mashing cycle
When you add your dump sparge water make sure that the total wort temp is not above 70C and let it sit for 10 minutes befoe run off.
Good Luck....

Kurtz


----------



## blackbock

dr K said:


> Can I see any problems, from a brewing process no, from an equipment process...well..in a previous life I sold a lot of rag, hectares of it probably, so I have some knowledge about textiles, these bags, particularly if made from calico or worse muslin are going to degrade, and fairly quickly waht with the combination of heat, moisture, mechanical force..the weight of the grain..and possibly some laxness in so far as cleaning and washing and drying straight way and the various moulds that will form..and one day, soon, without warning the bag, probably on lifting will split and totally bag your brew man.
> Some suggestions:
> Use a high quality textile (I suggest Trevira CS) for your bag.
> Crack as coarsely as your mill will allow.
> Do your "mash" at 3:1 L:G
> Use some removable insulation during the mashing cycle
> When you add your dump sparge water make sure that the total wort temp is not above 70C and let it sit for 10 minutes befoe run off.
> Good Luck....
> 
> Kurtz




I am curious about your recommendation for a better fabric Kurtz, what is this Trevira CS stuff and where would one purchase said textile?

that's all


----------



## therook

Good to see you were wearing saftey shoes in the pics Blake  

Hot water, bare feet....good combo

rook


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## 3GumsBrewing

Ok guys, I have finally got all my ingredients ready to try and make the Schwartzbier.
But I have a quick question - where the hell do I get a 50L pot around Syd? I could have sworn my current pot was big enough but upon testing it is only a 35L !! (So much for preparation!)

Cheers


----------



## Maxt

It is with much sadness that I am announcing my retirement from BIAB. I did find that the under attenuated beers were too sweet (especially my Porters). I didn't notice it so much with the hoppy APA.

I can see how BIAB would work with the reduced water to grain ratio, but if you ned a second pot to get sparge water up, then you have defeated the idea of one vessel brewing.

If it wasn't for BIAB I wouldn't have started grain brewing, so it was a good step to take.
:beer: 

Beer number 3 in the new mash tun has just been finished, and it is a thing of beauty!


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Well, Dr K ha re-surfaced

and using quotes from among others, me, has justified himsef and emerged from the argument triumphant.

Well bollcks to that, I'm not very bloody happy and I think its time to vent.

Dr K. I STILL disagree with your conclusions on wort fermentability and the "standard" BIAB mash thickness. Vague assertions that the arguments we have been using were not meant to be applied at the L:G ratios that BIAB calls for aside, the conclusions to be drawn from the literature are certainly not so obvious that you can honestly and definitavely come down on either side. You interpret one way, I interpret another.

Actual _results_ is what will solve the argument and at this point in time, the vast majority of evidence seems to point ot the fact that BIAB worts are NOT underattenuative. At this time I can recall only 1 report of underattenuated beer that is a result of BIAB. Thats from Maxt, who has decided that BIAB isn't for him. Fair enough. But I hardly think that the poor results of one, new to AG brewer, counter balance the positive results of so many more. BIAB could result in underattenuated wort, no doubt. That doesn't mean it has to result in it, and the evidence suggests that mostly it doesn't, no matter how much you might wish it would.

But Yea and Nay arguments aside, thats not why I am pissed off. Why I am pissed off with Dr K is for this

Quote: (DR K said)

"So..there you have it...I pointed out in my Dec 24 post that you were headed in right direction but just on the wrong road, Blake and Post Modern cottoned on pretty much straight away, I got mud thrown at me (in some cases it was just a return of what I had slung).
So is born the MBIAB...will it work..well against all odds in some eye (s) BIAB did so.."


Well thanks frigging heaps Dr K. Here was everyone else ernestly trying to develop a new, easy, cheap and effective way of brewing AG. Identifying problems, thinking about solutions, testing and trying. 

You managed to point out a bunch of reasons why it wouldn't work, but never once offered any hints about how it might be MADE to work! No... just a series of smug comments that Dr K knows why it wont work, and Dr K knows how it _could_ work, but he wont tell us, he'll just let all us poor confused and obviously not quite as smart brewers stumble around in the dark untill one of us has a eureka moment. Then the benevolent Dr K will smile down from above and tell us how clever we are, and how he know that we would get it eventually...

Well thanks DrK, it seems I was the eureka boy in this instance and I really appreciate your prodding me about being wrong until I eventually got it right. Now I dont feel quite as mentally retarded as I did before.

Of course, I would have appreciated it even more, if you had just suggested the solution, instead of being a self satisfied, sanctimonious, patronising git

Its interesting how such an omniscient commentator as DrK warns us about the perils of muslin or calico bags, when if he had actually been paying attention to the suggested process, he would have noticed that the reccomended material for the bags is a 100% polyester Voile. Strange how it makes me feel better to know that this person so quickly and easily demonstrates that he was never really commenting on actual BIAB, only on what his narcissism fogged mind decided it was going to be...

Thirsty

(yeah I know that it'll probably get trimmed... sorry for the PITA moderators)


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Maxt said:


> I can see how BIAB would work with the reduced water to grain ratio, but if you need a second pot to get sparge water up, then you have defeated the idea of one vessel brewing.



Maxt,

When I suggested the reduced L:G + sparge method for BIAB, I definately kept in mind that one of the points of BIAB was to not have to have more than one vessel. I just took advanatage of the fact that nobody actually has only one vessel. We all have fermetors as well. You would heat up the extra/sparge water in your kettle and temporarily store it in the fermetor you already have. The use it later in the dilution/sparge process.

Then you eliminate some of the percieved flaws in BIAB without having to buy any more equipment, or take up any more space.

Sorry to see you are off the BIAB wagon, but if it wasn't working for you, what else could you do.

Glad to see that it helped you get into the AG process and its even better to hear that your mash tun is doing the job for you and that you are making great beer. awesome.

Thirsty


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

Thirsty Good posts again , Thanks for your eforts in protecting us poor ill informed new AG BIAB'ers...

I have now compleated 14 Biab brews and finnished drinking 8 of them, All of them are way better than anything I have ever brewed in the past 17 years of making home brew and everyone that has tasted tham wants more. 

As new AG brewers I doubt that the posiable underattenuation would be noticable to any of us and that this is only somthing that we can continue to reserch and develop in a constructive manner with input from as many as possiable in a forum such as this. 
Brewers closer to other brewers have the advantage of being able to swap and share there brews for a better feedback. 
With a new year there are a new round of competitions comming up and it would be good to see a few BIAB's get entered maybe even take out a place or 2 and get the score card results to see what the (JUDGES) have to say of our method .. At least they will have tasted it befor making unsubstanciated claims ..

Brew on fellow BIAB'ers... 

:beer:


----------



## Thirsty Boy

I'll informed new AG BIABer my bum... hell you have heaps more BIAB experience then me and probably know twice as much about it. 

Stack that up against 17years of other homebrewing and I dont know squat campared to you. I have just read a lot.

And I'm an angry and opinionated sort of guy who likes an argument and the sound of my own voice; is all   

Actually I just re-read my recent rant and it sounded suspiciously like I was having a crack at Maxt for being inexperienced. That wasn't my intention at all. Sorry Maxt. Shouldn't have included your name in my tirade. Poor form.

I'll shut up and get back inside my box now, before I really make an arse of myself

Thirsty


----------



## Maxt

Thirsty Boy said:


> Maxt,
> 
> When I suggested the reduced L:G + sparge method for BIAB, I definately kept in mind that one of the points of BIAB was to not have to have more than one vessel. I just took advanatage of the fact that nobody actually has only one vessel. We all have fermetors as well. You would heat up the extra/sparge water in your kettle and temporarily store it in the fermetor you already have. The use it later in the dilution/sparge process.
> 
> Then you eliminate some of the percieved flaws in BIAB without having to buy any more equipment, or take up any more space.
> 
> Sorry to see you are off the BIAB wagon, but if it wasn't working for you, what else could you do.
> 
> Glad to see that it helped you get into the AG process and its even better to hear that your mash tun is doing the job for you and that you are making great beer. awesome.
> 
> Thirsty




No offence taken thirsty!

On heating the sparge water and putting it in the fermenter, my only concern would have been the heat loss during the 60-90min mash. Unless you had an immersion element, it may be hard to hit the right sparge temp without lots of insulation...but there's no reason why it couldn't be done

I really enjoyed my BIAB APA. My BIAB porter and lager werer far too dextrinous for my liking.

I was also doing my beers in the kitchen, so when the minister for dometic affairs (kindly) asked me to relocate I thought I might as well get set up properly in the shed!

The other thing is that as I have an 80L kettle I wanted to start double batches, which was never going to be easy with BIAB. 

At the end of the day K&K v BIAB. No comparison. I'm glad I did it.

I look forward to seeing how some of these beers go in comps, because look how much sh*t was thrown when last year's beer of show was a kit!!!!


----------



## PistolPatch

ThirstyBoy: You are the best!!!!!!!! Couldn't agree with you more and thanks for those earlier very informative posts. I think Ned's comment would reflect everyone else's gratitude and agreement too. I mean WTF is MBIAB? Whatever it is, I think drk can start up another thread because it certainly doesn't belong here. Hopefully the new guys reading this thread have not been totally thrown by his posts which have generally been misleading if not actually incorrect (eg the bag perishing!)

Maxt: I've been racking my brains for some time trying to work out why you had a problem with the BIAB. The only thing I can think of mate is maybe not enough agitation and therefore the grain on the bottom of your kettle is being exposed to higher temps??? That's the best I can do sorry.

All: As I currently don't have the internet on, I've been re-writing the BIAB Guide. Half way through so it should be ready soon. Maybe it's better off in the Wikki section???

davekate: Good luck with your first brew!


----------



## The King of Spain

Ive starting using ProMash and have fed my past 6 brews into it to check on OGs. Ive noticed that all have been pretty good except for my Larger which I have made 3 times . I cant do reports as I do not have a full licence yet so here is a screen print. I've used Pilsner as a proxy for Galaxy which was the actual grain used. Expected OG 1044 and actual every time 1038.

Anyone got a comment. What do do reckon about a conventional mash in of 13L. 

Cheers


----------



## 3GumsBrewing

The pot has been purchased 40L - (Stockpot) got them down to $95.
The bags have been made (thanks Mother in Law)
The grain has been acquired and cracked (PP's Schwarz bier)- http://www.thebrewshop.com.au/

Sunday is the day. The wife is going on a course so I have the house and kitchen to myself!

Wish me luck. :super: 

DK


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Its simple, its easy, its fun.

(wrap the pot up in a few of towels when you are mashing, it helps!!)

Good luck and enjoy yourself. 

Thirsty


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

Thirsty Boy said:


> (wrap the pot up in a few of towels when you are mashing, it helps!!)



I've wrapped a camping mat around my boiler previously, but the mat doesn't like boil temperatures (I use an immersion heater - I guess it would absolutely hate a mongolian). I've now got a couple of acres of heavy cardboard box (fridge packaging) I'm going to try. Cardboard is usually a pretty good insulator and isn't that fussy about temperature. No good for gas-fired boils, but might be a good option for mashing if you've got access to it?

Gotta lurve the BIAB.


----------



## PistolPatch

*deaves:* I've found it pretty hard to brew an interesting lager along the styles of a German Lager or Bohemian Pilsner to date. I also haven't tasted anyone else's either in these styles yet that has been brilliant to me. Ross does some great pilsners but they are a little too hoppy for me. I'd say the problem is finding a recipe you like rather than changing your mash in volume which isn't going to make much, if any difference. Batz's Altbier (uses an ale yeast but is then lageres) _was_ brilliant (and some other brewer's alts as well) so the next 'lager' I do will be an Altbier. In the meantime, I've had some great APAs that have gone down very nicely so this will be the ale area that I'll concentrate on next. I think, for now, concentrate on finding a recipe that you know you will like.

*Kettle Insulation:* I think worrying about insulation with brewing in a bag is an unneccessary complication. In the first 20 minutes, you should be checking the temperature regularly and you'll find that it remains very stable in that first 20 minutes. After this, temperature control is not absolutely critical. The advantage though of BIAB is that if the temp does drop, all you have to do is turn the burner on for a minute or two. Having insulation only makes being able to do this difficult. I'm also hoping that 'taking one for the team' in the interests of BIAB is not going to include someone burning their house down  

Looking forward to hearing how you guys above go with your first one.

Spot,
Pat


----------



## blackbock

I gave this BIAB method a bash yesterday (Munich Lager), and I've got to say that it all went very smoothly except for one thing: My efficiency was way down. I mashed in with a ratio of about 3:1 because I was concerned about too thin a liquor:grist ratio. I think this may have been one of my downfalls, as I had no HLT to top up with hot water later. So I did it [topped up with] only warm water, then boiled.

I had a lot of trouble extracting all the sugars from the grain effectively. Squeezing the bag provided as much wort as I wring out without burning myself, but when I had finished, the grain was still very sweet and it almost made me cry because I couldn't access that good stuff!

Maybe Pat or someone who has done it a few times might have some tips here?, but I just can't see how it's ever going to work as well as a traditional sparge.

I will give it one more try, because the advantages are many.


----------



## Ross

blackbock said:


> I gave this BIAB method a bash yesterday (Munich Lager), and I've got to say that it all went very smoothly except for one thing: My efficiency was way down. I mashed in with a ratio of about 3:1 because I was concerned about too thin a liquor:grist ratio. I think this may have been one of my downfalls, as I had no HLT to top up with hot water later. So I did it [topped up with] only warm water, then boiled.
> 
> I had a lot of trouble extracting all the sugars from the grain effectively. Squeezing the bag provided as much wort as I wring out without burning myself, but when I had finished, the grain was still very sweet and it almost made me cry because I couldn't access that good stuff!
> 
> Maybe Pat or someone who has done it a few times might have some tips here?, but I just can't see how it's ever going to work as well as a traditional sparge.
> 
> I will give it one more try, because the advantages are many.



Blackbock,

Add the entire volume of water to mash with. Don't be concerned with liqour/girst ratios - The beers I've tried made this way have been fine. Trying to sparge grains in a sack is never going to be easy.

cheers Ross


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Blackbock,

What Ross said!! Dont worry about sparging.

Your efficiency probably will be a little lower than with a batch sparge and it will get lower the higher the OG of your beer (if the OG is high from a bigger malt bill rather than a sugar or DME addition)

You could try out the method I propose here, but I dont know if anyone has actually given it a shot yet, so it might not work.

Do a couple with the Full Volume, No sparge. For say a 1048 wort, I'd guess you should get somewhere around 70% efficiency

Thirsty


----------



## PistolPatch

*BIAB Efficiency:* Blackbock, that's great to hear that you had a crack at the BIAB. Not many people are prepared to vary from their usual brewing method and that is more than fair enough. Once you have any sort of system, the brewing is pretty easy.

Two things...

Firstly, I'm wondering if there could possible be a bellcurve involved in this liquor to grist ratio affecting efficiency? Maybe at the lower volume levels and higher level volumes, efficiency is good whilst in between it is poor? I have no idea. Just a thought.

Secondly, it would be great to see some more figures on BIAB efficency especially as compared to batch-sparging or fly-sparging. As far as I can remember, the only figures we have in this area so far are mine (BIAB efficiency proved 8% higher than my batch-sparge over several brews) and the 2 side by side brews that BradG and I did where BIAB came out about 5% ahead from memory.

If you are going to have another crack though, do as Ross said and go the full volume. 36 litres in my 70 litre Robinox with a one hour boil yields about 23 litres before trub losses. FOr a 90 minute boil try 41 litres.

Seeing as I have just put on a brew now and have also just had my first beer, expect a new thread from me later (very long of course) on BIAB versus Traditional Efficiencies. LOL! Having some keen brewers produce more figures on these efficiencies would be invaluable.

*Thirsty's Method:* Somehow I missed your method before. How could I have missed one of your posts???? Would the following also work?

What about simplifying it further and just doing normal liquor to grain ratio and then adding the sparge water amount? The problem with this, of course, is the temperature is going to drop from say 66 down to maybe 40 or less and then you will have to bring it back up to mash temp. Could doing this even be a good thing???

Cheers, (for now anyway  )
Pat


----------



## blackbock

Thanks guys for your input, full volume all the way seems to be the agreed way to go with this method.

At least now I can compare the results from the two methods and hopefully learn something from the error of my ways.

I just re-checked my figures and it looks like I got about 60% efficiency, which is quite bad, but still better than some have been reporting.

Pat, what you have described in your last paragraph is basically what I tried to do, but using only one vessel it's not easy I can tell you!


----------



## PistolPatch

60% sounds very low. I think the only other time I have heard of this was from some of the guys who tried doing half-batches or who found they had faulty thermometers.

Just thinking here that *maybe I haven't emphasised agitation enough...*

Batch and fly-sparging are labour-intensive after the mash as that is when their sparging (or rinsing) is done. BIAB however, should be labour-intensive throughout the mash particularly in the first 20-30 minutes as sparging is done simultaneously to the mash.

When I BIAB, I agitate every 5 minutes for the first 25 minutes or so. The first agitation is about 3 minutes. Subsequent agitations range from 1.5 to 3 minutes depending on whether I do a temperature adjustment.

This means that in the first 25 minutes or so of the mash (the critical part) the mash has been agitated at least one-third of that time.

I have an APA mashing now and I am raising the temperature slowly from 62-70 as that's what Batz does on some of his beers and they are all excellent.

I was going to do a 60 minute mash but I'm on AHB so it will be a 90 minute one and of that 90 minutes 30 minutes will have been spent actually agitating the mash.

Thanks to you BlackBock, this is the first time I have actually measured the time spent agitating and maybe this is a very important factor of BIAB????

Uh oh! Writing too much here and forgot to do my last temperature rise. I also did intend this to be a 60 minute mash. Whoops - gotta go!

Pat


----------



## The King of Spain

> concentrate on finding a recipe that you know you will like.



Spot on PP. I've just cracked open a larger and this one realy works. Lesson leant for me is that its all about hops/hop schedule. I got the balance right between finishing and bittering. ProMash certainly helps! I cant get the same OGa I'm getting with my APAs so I will simply up the bill next time

Cheers


----------



## PistolPatch

Deaves, if you crack the lager challenge let me know immediatley!!! Zizzle will want it too 

Most of the beers I've had in QLD are truly excellent beers but they take some warming up to. After I've had one of Ross's pilsners or Jye/Browndog's APA's, I can't taste anything else afterwards unless they are higher in bitterness value. Just between these 3 you're up tp about 150 IBU's in 3 beers  The only thing I can taste after that is Ross's Runination - agh!!!!

So, if you come up with a lager that you can have a session on that is really interesting, let me know. I've nearly totally given up on lagers.

I can't believe that I'm brewing my first APA today. I also can't believe that I didn't brew Batz's Altbier until a few days ago (think I may have buggered that one up as I had to use incorrect yeast and had to pitch early.)

If I started over again, I would brew Ross's Schwartzbier (as in the BIAB guide - very hard to bugger up), then 2 APA's (a not so hoppy one followed by a very hoppy one) and my fourth brew would be Batz's Altbier. Brewing in this order will give you a great range of tastes quickly as well. If you don't like really dark beers then brew a Brown Scottish Ale to start - I've never tasted a dud one of those.

I reckon that NOT doing the above has cost me dearly and God forbid me mucking around with lagers!


----------



## poppa joe

I have one BIAB Under the belt now......  
Two weeks in the bottle..Seems a bit different tasting....I just made a BEER ..  
Dunno if its an Alt ...Scottish...Schwarwatever...Lager..... Pilsener....?????????
Used a large heavy duty Plastic container With kettle elements + a little immersion
heater...Bucket in the bucket way..With a pond pump recirculating.
NO CHILL..Pitched the next day....EASY PEASY>>
Just got a large electric clothes boiler SS..Gunna give that a whirl...
Didn't take me long to write this..PP
cheers PJ :beerbang:


----------



## PistolPatch

Congratulations Poppa,

I'm guessing that you, the master acquirer of cheap brewing apparatus, have probably managed to do the cheapest AG brew ever! So, are you pleased with the results?

I think I did the longest BIAB brew ever yesterday. To do this, just have two hours sleep the night before, have your first beer at mash in and make sure AHB is turned on :huh: 

Was just trying to re-write that last post I did last night Poppa but ended up deleting it - much quicker  For those that read it, give me a few days and I'll put a new format up for getting the new guide correctly written.

My bed awaits...


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

I did my third e-BIAB yesterday. Another Pale Ale! Final volume was 34litres - I cubed half and put it in the carport. Half went straight into a fermenter and is now (still) cooling in my thermoelectric wine cooler fermentation cabinet. (I will be fermenting half with S-04 and half with Nottingham - the last two have both been with US-56.)

I wrapped my 75litre boiler in cardboard that I got from some fridge delivery guys then a sleeping mat, holding it there with some 25mm climbing tape. It stayed there for the entire process while my 2400W immersion heater ploughed on. I was pushing the limits of what my little heater could do, but the insulation *really* worked during both mash and boil.

I dunk-sparged(tm).  Having drained and squeezed the bag (between two big saucepan lids), I poured about 8litres of 70degC water through it and dunked it like a teabag in my 20litre bucket. I squeezed again (probably something about my personality), but probably wouldn't bother with third runnings again. I did not skim. I did use buffered pH solution.

As a filter of sorts, I cable-tied a tight-weave lingerie bag to the downhill side of my syphon tube which emptied into the fermenter. I then took a tube from the fermenter tap into the cube and offed the tap when the cube was full. I have clear wort. To sanitise the lingerie bag, I moistened it in a bowl with some water then into the microwave for a couple of minutes.

After cleaning the whole thing up, I (prematurely) opened a bottle of my first e-BIAB brew after one week in the bottle. I nearly cried with happiness.


----------



## 3GumsBrewing

Guys, I did my first BIAB yesterday as well, things I noted :

I really should have got a 50L or greater pot, 40L just is too small, I had to start with 32L plus the grain and top up the extra 6L at the boil.
Also I need to get a ring burner, where do you buy these things at camping stores? I did the whole thing on the stove top, and although I got it up to 66 degrees and keep it there for the required time easily enough, when the time came for the boil it just took forever.
My OG and FG was a bit low I thought - 1.032 and 1.009.
Also cooling it down to 25 degrees was taking a while in the tub with ice and ice bricks, so I cranked up the chest freezer and put it in that, got it down in 30min, is that ok?

All in all I had a great time though, awesome to see how it all works without using kits and malt etc. Whats a good recipe for my next one, maybe a pale ale, Im thinking along the lines of something that is very forgiving again!

Cheers
DK


----------



## PistolPatch

> I nearly cried with happiness



Doesn't get better than that Spills :beerbang: 

Interesting reading about your rinsing as I got an email from Ned today saying he does the same thing. I now just suspend my bag in a bucket and let it frain until the wort comes to the boil. By this time the bag has drained with no squeezing or anything. (Yesterday a combination of tiredness, AHB and drinking whilst brewing made me forget to add that drained wort. Agh!!!! Didn't notice until after I'd chilled. Had to fire up again which of course meant more beers. Double agh!)

Look forward to hearing how your other brews taste. Bloody nice to be able to drink them so quickly eh?

*davekate* Great to hear that you got under way. It is pretty hard in the small pot especially on the stove top so you've done really well.

The 3 ring burner is around $35 from any camping store so definitely grab one.

The OG and FG above sounds dodgy. The only figure you should have is an OG for now as FG can't be determined until after fermentation. Did you get the 1.009 from a computer program. The 1.035 is a bit low for a standard beer. 1.045 or above would be closer to the mark. If it happens again, you might need to take a hard look at your thermometer or better still, check it against someone else's before your next brew.

The cooling in your freezer is fine. The quicker it cools the better but cooling it initially in the bath first is a good idea. I wouldn't be chucking it in the freezer until it reached the stage where the bath no longer worked. What I do is throw my paddle (paint stirrer) in the brew for the last 10 minutes of the boil and put the lid slightly on. This sterilises them. At flame off, I put a clean nappy over the top of the lot to decrease the risk of contamination. During the chill, I can then just jiggle the stirrer up and down occassionally so the brew chills faster.

As for what to brew next, the pale ale sounds good. It's a very popular brew and the ones I've tasted have been either good or excellent.

Thanks to both of you for letting us know how you went.

Spot,
Pat


----------



## The King of Spain

> Deaves, if you crack the lager challenge let me know immediatley!!! Zizzle will want it too
> 
> 
> 
> Close but not there yet (initial comments influenced by a few APAs first). After talking over with Ross I reckon that a change of yeast will clear the last hurtle. I've been using Notts with my Largers and have wrongly blamed the estery taste on brewing technique, fluffing 'round with conventional mash in vols etc. There is nowhere to hide with a lightly hopped Larger and the one brew I liked (under influence) had a higher IBU to help mask this. Bottom line problem is Nottingham yeast in Larger.
> 
> None of my Summer Ales using US56 has displayed this so the next Larger is a US56 clone which I think will be more neutral. My last 4 largers (yep I want to get this one day) used Galaxy (4.2kg) Wheat (0.5kg) and Rice Flakes(0.2kg). The resulting beer has a great head which beads down the glass and has a low FG and was very clear. Next time I will stick with about 45g of hallertau hops in for full boil as opposed to my masking attempt with the last brew.
> 
> Just to make sure I will turn temp up to 22C after hitting 1015 and will keep you posted with a more objective observation with results.
> 
> Cheers
Click to expand...


----------



## PistolPatch

*Time to Pass On the Fruits of All Your Labours*

As mentioned the other day, I've had some ideas on re-writing the guide. I've started a new thread that asks for your help and ideas in re-writing the guide so the fruits of our labours can be passed on. Would really appreciate your thought and then feedback there.

Meanwhile...

Phrak gave his BIAB to a few of the Sydney guys last night and from what I've heard, it went down very well. And Deaves, keep us posted on those elusive lagers!

Cheers
Pat


----------



## PistolPatch

Thanks for the feedback etc in the thread above. I've replied there. Also, a few questions came up...

A few troops were wondering how to BIAB existing partial and AG recipes.

*For Partial Recipes:* There might be a way to convert these but I'm not sure. There should be no need though as you will probably find many more AG recipes in any particular style you wish to brew.

*For AG Recipes:* BIAB is the same as normal AG so there is no need to modify any existing AG recipe. Use exactly the same quantities etc. Too easy!

*ThirstyBoy* Did you post BIAB onto the American forum? I haven't had a chance to look as yet and I think I've forgotten my password by now - lol. If you did, was there any feedback? (Hopefully they didn't get it confused with their 'brewing in a bag' which is some type of kit that is brewed in some sort of collapsible plastic fermenter). Also any ideas on the modification to your brewing method that I threw in above?

*Easy Recipes to Brew* Those of you who have been looking for an easy beer to brew, the Altbier and APA I suggested above would be a great start - very forgiving. I just did both of these and made some major brewing errors on both - some unavoidable on the day, others had something to do with brewing whilst under the influence. The beers were...

*Batz's Altbier His recipe is in the recipe section. To ferment use Nottingham yeast at 14 degrees. This is a great alternative to those wanting to brew a lager and tastes a hell of a lot better than any lager I've tasted to date. 

My Brewing Errors: I had to use T58 and pitched very high (should have just waited until the next morning) due to the dissapearance of some of my chilling hoses and then crash chilled to 18 degreees. Because of this this beer fermented out in about 5 seconds so the banana flavour is there but it's still very drinkable. Can't wait to brew this again with correct yeast and temps.

NRB 'All Amarillo APA': You can find that here Zizzle brewed one for the Swap and it was brilliant. I brewed this last Sunday whilst having too many beers and posting to AHB. Here's proof that it is very forgiving...

My Brewing Errors: Pulled my bag out to drain whilst bringing wort to the boil and totally forgot about it. Noticed the bucket full of 8 litres of wort (I've given up on squeezing - just twirl a bit now before I pull it out of the kettle) just after I finished chilling. Whoops! Re-boiled the 8 litres but can't remember for how long. Maybe half an hour. Also added another 7g of Amarillo to this at flame out but have no idea why - lol!

I'm having my first one now and I must say I am stoked.

:super: 
Pat*


----------



## Thirsty Boy

PP.

I haven't inflicted the BIAB debate on the poor seppos yet, but I will do it in the near future. Actually would have done it already, but in responding to a question by one of the guys there about chilling his wort with less/no water, i started the No-Chill thing up over there and re-ignited an argument here as well.

Thought I would try not be too big a stirrer and not introduce another controversial topic too soon after the last.

I'll wait for the modified guide so they cant confuse the method. As I said in your other thread, let me know if I can give you a hand with that.

As for doing BIAB at a normal L:G, then adding the rest of the water and heating it back up.... dunno. It doesn't sound right, but I dont know why. I can't really think of a reason it would be bad. Have to try it and see I suppose. 

Maybe it would knock your mash back down to Beta temperatures for too long and you would end up with a thin beer? But if you start high trying to compensate, then you denature them and end up with sweet beer....

If your house water is carbon filtered, you could just use hot tap water that would be close to mash temps anyway. I reckon that'd work pretty much without a hitch.

Me, I'm probably gonna try my alternative mehod, just to see if it works, then I might try your version of it, but apart from that, I think I will just be sticking to the original BIAB format, its too easy and simple to mess with unless I have to. If I want complicated, I will just use my 3 vessle system.

See ya

Thirsty


----------



## 3GumsBrewing

Guys, let me just say that I am absolutely hooked on BIAB, I did my second one yesterday, a Amarillo Ale. 
I picked up a 4 ring burner on Friday and brewed outside, the whole process went so damn well from start to finish, definitely easier than on the stove top!

PP thank for clarifying converting AG recipes to BIAB, I had it in the back of my mind that it would be a simple as that but just wanted to make sure.

Just one more small question, I really would like to try this recipe next time - TDA's FLY-BLOWN BELGIAN I noticed that it calls for 0.30kgs of cane sugar. Am I correct in saying that this just goes in the bag at the same time as the malt?

Cheers and thanks again for getting me away from kits!


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

davekate said:


> Guys, let me just say that I am absolutely hooked on BIAB, I did my second one yesterday, a Amarillo Ale.
> I picked up a 4 ring burner on Friday and brewed outside, the whole process went so damn well from start to finish, definitely easier than on the stove top!
> 
> PP thank for clarifying converting AG recipes to BIAB, I had it in the back of my mind that it would be a simple as that but just wanted to make sure.
> 
> Just one more small question, I really would like to try this recipe next time - TDA's FLY-BLOWN BELGIAN I noticed that it calls for 0.30kgs of cane sugar. Am I correct in saying that this just goes in the bag at the same time as the malt?
> 
> Cheers and thanks again for getting me away from kits!



Let's face it...

Moving from kit beer to all-grain is like changing from jocks to boxer shorts. Some blokes just can't come to terms with it, but others really enjoy the freedom.


----------



## PistolPatch

Thirsty: Thanks for your answers above. LOL on your no-chill stuff on the American forum (saw your posts there the other day). And, yep I think that sticking to the full volume is the way to go unless someone has a real pot size limitation. Thanks also for your offer of help. Still recovering from Asher's brewday so can't think of anything off the top of my head. I'm sure though that when you link or post the new guide in the US, you'll have your hands full answering questions there  

davekate: Wrapped to hear that all went so well for you. It's a great beer that Amarillo I think. With the sugar in the Belgian, just throw it in at the beginning of your boil. Thanks for letting us know how you went - top stuff!

*Large Pots* Was chatting with a few of the guys at Asher's yesterday and apparently you can get 100 litre pots over here for $50. (I'm not sure what the next size down is.) They *are* thin-bottomed but if you can keep the bag off the bottom and use a ring burner, apparently there shouldn't be any problems with using one of these in the short-term for BIAB. This makes things very cheap.


----------



## PistolPatch

As usual, on my way out the door, but just quickly, ThirstyBoy has written a very good post on THe Brewing Network forum in the US introducing BIAB there. There's a link to it in this post where I've also asked if anyone if they want to volunteer to summarise a block of this thread.

Bayweiss, posed a few questions in another thread that I said I'd answer here. Here's his questions...


> But, I have a few questions...
> 
> 1. Does any of the grain make it through the bag to the wort? For example, in regular all-grain techniques you would clear your runnings before placing the mashwater into the kettle.
> 2. Is the bag a pain in the butt to clean? I remember doing partial-mashs (I hated it) with a grain bag, and cleaning it took a long time.
> 3. Is the extraction efficiency using this technique predictable and repeatable given you are using the same grain mill?



1. The bag is very fine so no grain makes it through.
2. The main bag cleans easily but mine is poorly made where the drawstring goes so often grain creeps into the drawstring seam. This can be annoying. Does anyone else get that ny the way?
3. Yes the efficiency is predictable and repeatable - no worries there.

Gotta go,
Pat


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

PistolPatch said:


> 2. The main bag cleans easily but mine is poorly made where the drawstring goes so often grain creeps into the drawstring seam. This can be annoying. Does anyone else get that ny the way?
> Gotta go,
> Pat




Hi buddy , Yes I get a bit of spent grain in the drawnstring seams as well. However it only takes a minute with the hose to clean it up. Still haven't been to Cairns to get more cloth to build another bag yet but will soon. 


Good to see the positive responces from the septic tanks...

:beer:


----------



## bayWeiss

FNQ Bunyip said:


> ...from the septic tanks...
> :beer:



careful, we/they loom around here closer than you think... :excl: 

:lol: 

I may give this BIAB a go someday... but, the thing is I do not do a full wort boil in one pot. I "Texas-Two Step" it due to lack of a decent sized kettle and a good means of heating. When I get a full sized pot, I guess it would be easier to try then.

cheers!


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

bayWeiss said:


> careful, we/they loom around here closer than you think... :excl:
> 
> :lol:
> 
> cheers!




Nothing ment by it bayweiss . dont take it personaly...  :beer:


----------



## v8r

well, isnt this thread a monster read! being a K&K'er, im pretty keen to go AG but the 3 tier setup is a bit out of reach atm. BIAB looks the goods, now to "discover" a brewpot, burner, a bag and get going.


----------



## Hashie

v8r said:


> well, isnt this thread a monster read! being a K&K'er, im pretty keen to go AG but the 3 tier setup is a bit out of reach atm. BIAB looks the goods, now to "discover" a brewpot, burner, a bag and get going.



Your in the same boat as me.

I never thought I would be able to go all grain for the same reason. I lost my AG virginity last week, now I can't wait to do my next one.

All you really need is a big boiler, a burner/immersion heater and a bag. Oh, and a thermometer.

Go for it, you wont look back. :super:


----------



## PistolPatch

A few guys are working on distilling the posts in this thread to make it easier to quickly identify and/or find information. These summaries will be put into one of the top four posts once completed. In the meantime please offer any improvements etc. Please feel free to be super-critical - of mine at least. I've probably written too much but when the othe summaries are written, I'll probably put all credits into one post which will shorten the actual summary part.

Here you go...

*A Summary of Posts 1-50 of This Thread*[/b]

Posts 1-4 are meant to be the guts of the BIAB thread but are in need of a major overhaul. This is being worked on now. Of the remaining posts...

apd suggested that picture sizes in the BIAB Booklet could be reduced even further. He offered for me to send them to him to be reduced something I'll take him up on 

FingerlickinB had a lot of problems doing a decent brew. Later it was discovered that his thermometer was faulty so make sure that your thermometer is accurate.

Zizzle did the first eBIAB (Electric BIAB) and produced a great beer.

Phrak linked some very interesting threads in Post #8

jimmysuperlative who also offered great encouragement as I was writing the guide suggested starting a sort of BIAB register. I think this is a great idea. Maybe a thread called, 'BIAB User's Register' or something would be very interesting. People could initially write down when they started, how many brews they've done, whether they have changed from or back to traditional. They could update their progress occassionally by copying 'the list' down.

Coodgee and Adamt simultaneously started 'teching' up the BIAB spreadsheet. Phrak joined in and had all night competitions with Adamt in the development. These guys put in a lot of work. More feedback from users is needed for this to be developed further I think.

Finally, apart from the above, the usual guys offered us all encouragement. These guys were FNQBunyip (been brewing for 20 years or more), James Squire (mentioned in Post #1 of this thread), Ross (taught me how to AG,provided the black beer recipe and also told me what sort of material to use), and AndrewQLD (did a full volume batch-sparge to test this principle out). There were others who helped a lot to in James Squire's original thread. I need to go through that as well to acknowledge the guys like Trough Lolly who wrote some brilliant stuff.


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## poppa joe

DONT FORGET THE CAKE STAND>
Otherwise you would have....BBIAB(Burnt Bag In A Bucket)
Cheers
PJ


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## blackbock

*Summary of Posts 51-100 in this thread:*

A number of brewers tested BIAB during this period including Phrak, AdamT, Zizzle, Fingerlickin_B, MaxT, FNQ_Bunyip, jimmysuperlative, Hughman, James Squire (sorry if anyone got left out just an oversight, no conspiracy!)

A number of beers were taste-tested and found to be acceptable, including AndrewQLDs pilsener recipe.

PistolPatch decided to include Rosss Black Beer into new checklist format.

Phrak and AdamT's spreadsheet blew PistolPatch and everyone else away, PP offered suggestions for minor spreadsheet improvements.

FNQ burnt a hole in his brew bag while using his NASA burner. PistolPatch made the suggestion to use a cakestand on the bottom of the kettle to avoid this. 

AdamT reported on his BIAB Pale Ale effort using a calico supermarket bag. He found the bag weave too tight and experienced various other problems on brewday, ...AdamT wondered how to tell if tannins have been extracted into the wort. PP suggested that AdamT's bag needs to line the kettle, not be suspended in it, so using a pillow-slip wouldn't work either. Some suggestions for obtaining materials for, and manufacturing a suitable bag were made (try Spotlight.) It was suggested that insulation of the kettle/tun is not really necessary, and simply by keeping the lid on Pat loses little temperature during his mashes. Pat planned to try an "escalator mash" (constant temperature rise) on weekend with the aim of eliminating strike temp calcs. He suggested to AdamT that tannin extraction will not occur using BIAB. 

PistolPatch reported problems with using the "escalator mash". Suggests to forget it.

Several brewers discussed options for lifting the bag out of the kettle during/after mash. FNQ_Bunyip and James Squire each came up with their own systems that worked for them, and FNQ successfully performed a temperature rise using his.

PistolPatch made a number of suggestions to MaxT, including: No need to worry about mash temp. consistency. At this stage of BIAB few brewers/tasters could pick the difference between different mash temperatures. Keeping the lid on kettle during mash is very important though. 

Phrak announced a planned double-batch BIAB ale. Options for heavy grain bill, including double-layer bag, top up using extract, or split batch were outlined.

James Squire described his Bucket-alternative-to-Bag system and provided a link.

PistolPatch commented on double batch BIAB: A pulley system might be required due to the weight. He thought the bucket system could work, but concerned it could melt if allowed to remain near sides of kettle too long. PP thought brewers might be better off doing a double batch after having successfully trialled a single-size batch.


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## PistolPatch

What a top job bb!

The second block looks a lot more interesting than the first or is that because of the distiller 

bb wrote his summary before mine and sent me an email asking, "Here's a draft," and then before I even had a chance to reply," he sent the above modification asking, "Is this better?"

bb, you must have spent a heap of time on the above. All I can say is....

Perfect!

Can't tell you how much doing the above helps me personally let alone how much time and confusion it is going to save others. I hope you get a few PM's or posts here that just say thanks.

Thanks mate,
Pat

P.S. Now PJ, was it you who suggested the cake stand? I remember all the people, (I think???,) who have made a contribution to BIAB but sometimes don't remember why - hence the thread summaries. As I've said before, you are the master 'AHB Acquirer of Cheap Equipment' and the best thread bumper ever! We can't forget the cake stand though. I thought the summaries would credit you here but _I've_ been given the credit - lol!!!! Did you bring that idea up in the All In One Brewery thread? Please let me know!


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## Thirsty Boy

*Summary of posts 201-250 in this thread:* 

> A bit of chat between a few of the guys who are trying or about to try BIAB and a couple of suggestions for gear. Morrie 2 bags for a double brew & deaves A collapsible mesh storage bag he discovered in Bunnings

> Pistol Patch gives us an expected date for some side by side tastings comparing BIAB to batch sparged brews

> A couple of people try BIAB for he first time and report back

> Some questions are asked and answered about the lack of sparging in BIAB and PP makes a good comparison between BIAB and commercial lautering practises.

> Fingerlickin_B Decides to give BIAB a go, but wants to try using his bag to line an esky style mash tun.

> Deaves - Does his first brew in a bag. But he gets low efficiency and he needs to top up with DME.

> PostModern Adds some important detail to PPs explanation of Mashing and Sparging. He also points out the large Liquor to Grist ratio as a probable flaw in the BIAB process

> Pistol Patch -responds to everybody with his usual encouragement and good suggestions

> Thirstyboy - In response to PostModern, writes a long technical post about mash thickness, enzyme activity and further compares and contrasts between commercial/traditional practise and BIAB

> Jimmysuperlative and Hughman666 - Give some great testimonials about their BIAB experience. Hughman666 says he is moving on to a more traditional system, but is retaining the bag as his method for wort separation, in the same way that Fingerlickin _B planned to try.

> Pistol Patch - Announces the BIAB vs Batch sparge side by side tastings results and posts links. (summary - only 2 of 8 brewers were able to pick the BIAB beers from the batch sparged ones in a triangle test)

> A few more people line up to try BIAB. They ask questions and get hints and suggestions in response.

> Deaves does his second BIAB and his efficiency problem largely goes away

> DrK Posts a long and technically detailed post about Enzymatic Activity and Liquor to Grist ratios. His conclusion is that BIAB will most likely produce overly dextrinous worts with high finishing gravities. He is concerned that a method that . . .will clearly if only after a fashion work. . . is being too heavily pushed as the new, better only way to brew.

> A number of comments about DrKs post. For the most part, appreciative of his input, but defensive of the quality of BIAB beers so far. Maxt - has however been getting lower than expected apparent attenuation. So maybe DrK has a point.

> Pistol Patch - responds to the question of final gravities. He attests that the BIAB brews he has done so far have achieved either similar or identical final gravities to the same recipes brewed traditionally and batch sparged. Further that the side by side test brews produced identical final gravities.

------------------


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## SpillsMostOfIt

*Summary of Posts 101-150 in this thread*

Several people are trying this technique with varying, but generally positive results.

hughman666 tried using his stovetop to control the mash temperature before moving the pot to his big burner. (102)

Adamt had issues with his voile bag while brewing an American IPA. (103)

lucas split the seams on his bag and retired from the field. (104) Discussion followed about bag design, with a simple design where the seam is not at the bottom appearing to be the winner. (116, 118)

PistolPatch recommends a coarse grain crush, hanging the bag in a bucket while the kettle comes to boil and solidly stitching the bag with nylon thread. (120)

FNQ Bunyip reports using a bag in a 'keg-like vessel' and a pulley setup to lift the bag from the wort and allowing it to drain. (123)

Morrie0069 performs a variant where he mashes in a bag and esky, then does a split boil (127, 129), based on advice from PistolPatch. (130)

PistolPatch advocates taking your bag into the shower to clean it. (133)

Subsequent to this, several people report pleasing results. Alternate bag designs are tendered and the No Sew BIAB Bag With a Drawstring is introduced. (145-147)


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## SpillsMostOfIt

*Summary of Posts 151-200 in this thread*:

Beers from Pilseners through Schwartzbiers are being brewed and enjoyed by BIABers.

PistolPatch discussed reasoning behind BIAB's efficiency, comparing full-volume brewing to batch sparging and considering that the greater fluid volume results in less sugars retained by the grains upon draining. (151, 154, 156)

Whether to raise the temperature of the mash prior to removing the bag is debated. PistolPatch vassilates in a discussion with JimmySuperlative . (156)

Morrie666 continued small-volume boils on the stove - to his wife's apparent disdain. (162)

Linz makes a BIAB-style liner for his HERMS mash tun. (165, 171)

PistolPatch and Brad_G brew side by side in a BIAB v Batch Sparge brew-off to compare results. Samples are sent to the Queensland Case Swap group. (166, 172)

Matti raises concerns about dough-balls and grain saturation with BIAB (169), which PistolPatch seems to think are not a problem. (170)

Morrie666 suggests using two bags in a double-sized batch rather than using a single, larger bag, to avoid the bag breaking from too much weight. (173)

Maxt achieves 80% efficiency into boiler on his third BIAB brew. (182)


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## PistolPatch

And how good are those summaries?

I hope someone apart from me has thanked you guys for the above.

Will consolidate the above and give you guys the huge credit you deserve in the next few days.

ATM though, I've started a new thread asking for both constructive and informed criticism (both positive and negative) of BIAB. If anyone has anything to say, post here

Please just post there and say how you have found BIAB - good or bad. Personally, I think it's time we started to tech BIAB up rather than question it.

Spot ya,
Pat

P.S. Will someone please take the time to thank the above people for their summaries? I know FNQBunyip is in the process of writing a thank you but these guys deserve a lot more. Then again, maybe no one is reading this thread! LOL!


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## capretta

Ive just had my first AG birthday (oh how time does fly!! rolleyes.gif ) and i have never BIAB so i cant speak with experience of your method, so let me ask a few questions.. can you get/what do you do with a stuck mash? or does the bag sparge effectively enough? Have you had success with wheat beers?
I was under the impression that forming a good grain bed for sparging was important to remove not only grain debris, but also long chain proteins to a certain extent. i have spent an hour reading the various posts on the topic, and i know you have mentioned you have good clarity, but cant proteins also encourage bacterial growth after longish period of storage? Is it possible to easily measure protiens in beer?


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## capretta

back from work after spending the day with greg noonan, new brewing lager beer, and he writes " ..sparging/filtering is to rinse the soluble extract free from the malt husks and _to trap insoluble, poorly modified starch, protein, lipids and silicates within the husks_ p146" the proteins in the husk grab the gunk on the way through . those unmodified starches are incredibly attractive to nasty bacteria etc. Not sparging would seem to me to risk astringency and unstability, and that would be my fear on moving onto biab.
My beer needs all the help it can get!! 
but i dont know guys, the book written in 86, was revised in 96. was i even born then? it is so far back in the mists of time.. maybe i need to bite the bullet and get a set of womens stockings. for biab of course!


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## SpillsMostOfIt

I haven't been making beer long enough to be authoritative about anything and the only thing I am really expert in is asserting that I am *not* an expert, but...

There are a number of people experimenting with and developing new techniques in this place. Some of these techniques are challenging accepted wisdom. Some of them are so new that it is yet to be seen if they will in turn become accepted.

What I can tell you is that brewing in a bag and using no-chill cubes gives *me* better beer than I have ever made before and I am having so much fun that my friends are wondering why I have this perpetual smile on my face.

I reckon the best way to decide is to give it a go.


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## poppa joe

YES PP>>>
You burnt your bag...told you to use a CAKE STAND>>>>>>  
Possibly we could take the "I" out of BIAB??..Replace it with an 'O'....(BOAB brewing)
'BREWING ON A BUDGET'  ....I feel another thread coming along....  
MY ONLY CLAIM TO FAME>>The CAKE STAND.... :beerbang: 
Cheers
PJ


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## SpillsMostOfIt

capretta,

There is also discussion which very nearly addresses your queries in the 'All in One Brewery Thread', here -> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=11074 , which I must confess I haven't read recently and cannot now due to time constraints. In a surprisingly brief conversation, Mr Patch suggested it would answer your question more specifically than my own generalist answer and also confirmed that he prefers his coffee with just one sugar...


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## PistolPatch

EDIT: Now that I am banned, this really _was_ going to be a short post but obviously I have some 'issues,' that I will discuss with my AHB Personal Restrainer on Monday.

What a crack up PJ and Spills (more below for you two and Capretta!)

Looks like I didn't mention it in this thread but I've banned myself from answering questions on AHB. It was going to be for five days(?) but I'm extending it until the BIAB Guide is totally re-written including the first four posts of this thread.

About twice a year, I get a bit worn out. If you've seen some of my recent posts on AHB (I'm too scared to even look) they are probably 50 pages long and could possibly have no point. If there was a point, it's probably miniscule :blink: 

The last time I was in this frame of mind I actually wrote the BIAB guide. So I might as well channel my current compulsive writing need into something constructive - getting the second (and hopefully last) re-write done. Hopefully this time, with the help or actual writing you have given or offered, it will be a lot better.

So, if anyone asks questions here, please answer them asap. I get the topic reply notification thingo and so when I see a question asked I get restless until I see it answered...

Just looking at Capretta's post and there hasn't been an answer yet besides Spills. In fact, I don't think I even wished Capretta a happy first AG birthday. Here it is now Capretta!

Capretta's questions are very good. Unfortunately, I think they were answered in the 'All In One Brewery' thread so to us 'old time' BIABers we may think the answer is obvious whereas it is not.

OMG! Have just re-read Capretta's post and I didn't realise his questions were THAT good! There's questions there that I think only ThirstyBoy could answer!!! I have no idea of some answers! The only bit I saw was, 'Not sparging would seem to me to risk astringency and unstability...' and I was going to explain that BIAB mashes and sparges at the same time and that in the side by side test, BIAB came out as slightly less astringent but with slightly less body to the one person who could pick the difference!

AND, Capretta has read the topic!!!! Well done - no way I would have!

Agh!

You see? This is why I have to ban myself from AHB until the guide is written. There is too much stuff here that fascinates me and I write while I think with the total unawareness that this is a forum not a book writing club - lol!

I actually can't believe the tolerance you guys and the general forum have had for me as I think that _I_ would actually often find me very annoying :blink: It's a great reflection on AHB that guys like me are so well tolerated and helped. Poor old PintofLager dealt with a billion of my lunatic questions in the early days. Poor old PostModern had to deal with the complaints! PostModern just laughs now when I do stupid stuff and we are looking forward to a beer when I'm in Sydney basically so we can laugh at me.... Remember the 2 page answer I wrote on.....' and that guy replied....' and then you had to..... - too many lol!

Looks like everyone knows now that I'm a bit of a loony who might occassionally be worth tolerating. (Don't forget though that it was POL and PoMO who knew first :beer

So, I'm answering no more questions until the guide is done. I'll probably do some frivolous posts though. I mean Poppa Joe...

PJ: I have never burnt my bag - that was Bunyip with his friggin' NASA burner! I actually don't and have never used a cake stand though I keep meaning to. A three ring burner is quite gentle if you keep stirring. I keep looking though for the right cake stand. PJ, can you do me a favour and find where you first suggestd this? It was probably in the All In One Brewery thread. With this re-write though, I'm thinking of listing all the credits in date order. You looking that up and maybe summarising a hundred posts wither side of that thread would be great! Oh and I seriously nearly wet myself when I saw your BIAB equipment and how much it had cost you in that other thread. In fact, to be honest, the only reason why I'm even writing a post here tonight is because I thought your post was so funny!

I think that's all I had to say  
Pat

P.S. Oh yeah. Can you guys post your summaries? That way I can whack them in the fourth post - a total re-write is going to happen and it is looking good already!!!!


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## mimerbryg

> I keep looking though for the right cake stand. PJ, can you do me a favour and find where you first suggestd this? It was probably in the All In One Brewery thread


It is here mate
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=145147

Just where you thougt it might be  

Kind regards
Flemming


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## capretta

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> capretta,
> There is also discussion which very nearly addresses your queries in the 'All in One Brewery Thread', here -> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=11074 , which I must confess I haven't read recently and cannot now due to time constraints.




Oh smoi! of course with you biab'ers, its not enough i trawl my way through a 300+ thread but you have many others too!! curse your prolificness ( my what an ugly word )

i had previously lightly dipped into that BIAB thread but it seemed to be so full of "arcane rituals and secret handshakes" due to the long term nature of it i would have to be fully versed in its lore before i felt comfortable posting. when the new thread (good advice for beginners) appeared it seemed as if PP was trying to encourage fresh input, otherwise why bother with a new thread? i only posted what my concerns would be with the method according to the dogma i have digested. 

but in the end, we all make alcohol.. :lol:


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## SpillsMostOfIt

capretta said:


> i only posted what my concerns would be with the method according to the dogma i have digested.



That's okay, I brew according to catma, since my comprehensive kharma insurance ran out... :blink:


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## Thirsty Boy

Pistol,

Dont answer me for gods sake, read if you must, but NO answering. Go to bed!!!

For your cake rack (if you decide you want ot use one) try an asian shop and the warming racks for a wok. Nice and solid.






Capretta - 

I haven't read Noonan so I have to take what he writes in the contexts of your quote


> " ..sparging/filtering is to rinse the soluble extract free from the malt husks and to trap insoluble, poorly modified starch, protein, lipids and silicates within the husks p146" the proteins in the husk grab the gunk on the way through



The words "on the way through" and the interchangability of his use of sparging/filtering suggest to me that he means continuous or fly sparging. I see what he's getting at, and its Noonan, so I assume he's right.

But.... that would mean, I think, that not only BIAB, but batch sparging and normal mash No-sparge brews would all miss out on the grabbing of the gunk. Wouldn't it? BIAB might in a lot of ways be new, but batch and no sparge brewing certainly aren't. Its my understanding that these types of wort seperation dont adversly effect the quality of the brew, so I suspeect that it wouldn't be a problem in BIAB either. I suppose its also possible that the bag could grab the stuff just as well as the husks would??

I'm not sure, I have no theory to back up the opinion (I just have PP fooled into thinking I know more than I really do), just a logical connection and a growing body of good BIAB brews. Empirically, astringency doesn't seem to be a problem for BIAB, or at least it doesn't seem to be being reported as a problem. Stability, I dunno, maybe it could be an issue, I haven't aged any of my BIABs for very long. Has anyone else??

Thirsty


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## capretta

hey thirsty B) , everything from noonan was in quotes, everything else was paraphrased in what i thought was context  

his idea was to form a precise grain bed " in an ideal stirred-mash bed, the heavy hulls that settle onto the false bottom are covered by a deeper layer of lighter hull fragments and endosperm particles. until this porous filter mass has been formed, tiny gelatinized particles of starch and protein remain suspended in the liquid " .

i got the impression that the levels of grain had very specific functions in grabbing crap on the way through, especially getting the fluid mass through the "gelatinized particles" on the top.. i batch sparge and still get separate levels which the wort must pass through. it would seem the holes on the bag are too big and lack the enzymes and proteins which supposedly grab the starches, lipids etc. i have no knowledge of the "no sparge" system tho :takes on grizzled prospector voice: ... and i cans only quote me book learnins..  

ps i wont tell PP about you, if you dont tell him about me!!


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## PistolPatch

*First Four Posts Re-Written*

Just quickly, instead of drinking 100 litres of beer I tried the same volume of coffee today and actually achieved something apart from a hangover and awakening in a panic - lol.

Those of you who have some time, please check out what I've done so far in the first four posts and let me know of any errors or if it seems logical.

Do not download the files as they are still the same. Nearly have those up to a postable form though.

Spills and others have mentioned the Wiki. Perhaps Post #2 would be a good thing to add there?

Also, please note that FNQBunyip has got the BIAB Brewer Register  off the ground. Please post there. (This was formerly called 'BIAB Brewers Please Step Forward.' Donya Ned!

That's all I'm going to write here but thanks for all your help and tolerance over the last few weeks.

Spot ya,
Pat

P.S. Fleming, thanks for the link to PJ's cakes stand. Thanks Thirsty for the wok burner post. And PJ, I just love your BOAB thread! ROFL!


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## FNQ Bunyip

Well done Pat , thats come up prety good . You've done a lot of work there mate...

Thanks to the others that have put in the hours as well, this is a great resouce.. Its also a lot of fun.. 

:beer:


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## Thirsty Boy

capretta said:


> hey thirsty B) , everything from noonan was in quotes, everything else was paraphrased in what i thought was context
> 
> his idea was to form a precise grain bed " in an ideal stirred-mash bed, the heavy hulls that settle onto the false bottom are covered by a deeper layer of lighter hull fragments and endosperm particles. until this porous filter mass has been formed, tiny gelatinized particles of starch and protein remain suspended in the liquid " .
> 
> i got the impression that the levels of grain had very specific functions in grabbing crap on the way through, especially getting the fluid mass through the "gelatinized particles" on the top.. i batch sparge and still get separate levels which the wort must pass through. it would seem the holes on the bag are too big and lack the enzymes and proteins which supposedly grab the starches, lipids etc. i have no knowledge of the "no sparge" system tho :takes on grizzled prospector voice: ... and i cans only quote me book learnins..
> 
> ps i wont tell PP about you, if you dont tell him about me!!




You've got me stumped mate - I cant think of an answer to that one. If someone else can come up with one I'd love to hear it. 

The only thing so far is that there dont actually seem to be too many problems with the beers... so unless there turn out to be longer term issues with stability... somethings going on that neutralises the potential issue. Looks like we might have to wait and see on this one.

Thirsty


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## The King of Spain

Why do BIABers advocate heating the grain up with the water instead of dropping the grain in once you have your desired strike temp (as i used to do). Is it to avoid enzyme shock? Maybe thats why my efficiency with galaxy has been so poor??

Any comments?


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## PistolPatch

Uh oh Deaves!

Looks like you've been doing the 'escalator mash' which I thought was a good idea at the time of writing the original booklet, especially as it made it a lot easier to write. I then decided against it for practical reasons and added a note into one of the first four posts saying, 'Don't do this!'

You'll see it mentioned in one of the summaries above.

I won't finish the re-write of the first 4 posts and the BIAB Booklet until the weekend, mainly because I'm still working out the best way to explain this point.

What you need to do is as you suggest. In other words, heat all the water up to about 1.5 degrees above your desired strike temperature assuming your grain is at around a room temperature of 20 degrees, and then dump all your grain in.

Sorry about that mate! I know you hate reading a lot - sometimes it's worth it but! ( Thanks for taking that one fore the team as I actually was going to try the escalator mash as a matter of interest in the next few weeks.

It'll be interesting to see what the percentage difference is when you do your next brew.

Can you let us know how the actual beer tasted as a matter of interest?

I'll add a note now at the top of Post # 1 to prevent anyone else doing the old escalator mash! 


Thanks mate,
Pat

(Got your PM too mate - lol - but I'm getting off here right now so I won't reply.)


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## The King of Spain

Sorry PP, was not real clear about that. I have always dropped my grain in about 2C higher than desired mash. Initial reaons (apart from having to be different) were practical in that I could get a very good uniform temp (no hot and colds) and then do my mash in. I've since read (Palmers view) that it is best to raise grain temp by increments to stop enzyme shock. He advocates adding strike water slowly. I don't know how this works but observe the same instructions with yeast and temperature shock so wondered what there was to it.

Thanks again for getting me going. I've now got an operational mash tun, HP burner, big kettles, fridges with temp reg. My wife would love to meet you so lets hope that never happens..ha ha.

Cheers mate.


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## SpillsMostOfIt

PistolPatch said:


> (Got your PM too mate - lol - but I'm getting off here right now so I won't reply.)



Too much information... :unsure:


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## poppa joe

Thirsty Boy....
I have one of those Warmer things....But the little ball leg things go rusty..
Cheers 
PJ


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## PistolPatch

Good on ya Spills - LOL!

Deaves - ROF! Whoops! Just realised I got you mixed up with 'devo' who sent me a funny PM re reading long posts hence my joke above about the PM and reading above!

I did bloody well on the wife front yesterday. I also got a message from the rook saying if I was ever in VIC that his wife has a sister - lol! It's more likely though that I'll get to QLD first so please send me a pic of your wife just so I know how much time to spend on your question  (Not that I'm shallow or anything :unsure

Anyway, just re-reading your question. From what I'm reading, the way you were doing it was what everyone does. What I'm wondering is what you are doing now. I'm still a bit unclear on this but would love to know exactly what you are up to.

Thirsty and Capretta: Re your long-term stability question. One of the WA AHB'ers dropped in for a beer last night and I was brave enough to pull out the lager that I brewed for the last QLD swap. I was scared too as originally it was insipid and then when I arrived here, I thought it tasted worse. So, this beer was brewed about 5 months ago, has been across the Nullabor at 40 degrees and it now actually tastes bloody good. Not real happy about waiting 5 months for a result though!

Better go and do some work,
Pat


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## capretta

on the subject of "escalator mash" i used to step mash from 35 degrees and never had a problem with dough balls or clumping. the water mixed through really well. but since i moved to straight infusion ( water at or slightly over 68ish degrees) i spend quite some time stirring and pushing the mash around to make sure i have good separation of the grains..


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## Zizzle

I had a problem with my last couple of BIABs. I don't drink that much so they spend a fair while in the keg (~2 months). Towards the end, they were tasting very soapy, to the point of being undrinkable.

I googled soapy taste as a beer defect and found some mention of the beer being left too long on the trub during ferment. Now I know this didn't happen (grain-to-brain in 7 days for one of them), so it must have been happening in the keg. I will also admit that I didn't use koppafloc or irish moss during the boil, and wasn't very careful about how much hot/cold break made it into the fermenter, and eventually into the keg.

What does this have to do with BIAB? I see a great deal of hot break at the bottom of my kettle. Some makes it into the fermenter.

I have virtually no experience with batch/fly sparging, but I'm wondering if using either method, the grain bed may filter out at least some proteins before they make it into the kettle, meaning less trub.

I was at Brad's the other day and noticed he had much less trub in his kettle at the end of the boil, and he was batch sparging.

My latest beer I have been more careful about leaving more trub behind, and have also filtered the beer into the keg. So I don't expect the same problem. Just something to keep and eye out for.

BTW I also remember thinking that Pat's Xmas case swap beer tasted soapy. Maybe I'm a bit sensitive to tasting that particular defect. But that beer would have also been a BIAB right pat? And filtered?


----------



## PistolPatch

Yeah that lager was a BIAB. I wrote about it a few posts ago - took 5 months to come good!

I don't know what a soapy flavour tastes like - I'll have to get someone to show me so I can't offer any thoughts on that. Be interesting to see if anyone else has the same problem though.

One thing I used to do was tilt the kettle etc to get more wort out. Now I just let it sit for ten minutes after the chill finishes (as I agitate the chiller during the chill) and then auto-syphon it. Whatever the auto-syphon gets, it gets! (Leaves about 3 litres behind in the 70lt Robinox). I also use the finings at ten minutes.

Talk to you soon mate,
Pat

P.S. I brewed NRB's All Amarillo Ale that you did for the swap - the one I loved. The first one I got distracted on but I still loved. The second one is superb!


----------



## PistolPatch

*BIAB Post Summaries*

I think these are nearly all done, If anyone hasn't posted there's to the thread yet can you whack it up and then I can refer to it in the Post# 3.

*Zizzle* Thinking more on your post. Did you find any soap flavour in your swap beer? I loved that one - couldn't fault it at all.

Had another taste of that lager yesterday and didn't like it at all! Both times I had it in the last week I had it on a clean palate and had 2 totally different reactions. Looking back, this has been going on ever since I brewed that beer - a love/hate relationship. So, looks like nothing has changed in what actually must be 6 months!

Spot ya,
Pat


----------



## Doogiechap

PistolPatch said:


> *BIAB Post Summaries*
> 
> I think these are nearly all done, If anyone hasn't posted there's to the thread yet can you whack it up and then I can refer to it in the Post# 3.
> 
> *Zizzle* Thinking more on your post. Did you find any soap flavour in your swap beer? I loved that one - couldn't fault it at all.
> 
> Had another taste of that lager yesterday and didn't like it at all! Both times I had it in the last week I had it on a clean palate and had 2 totally different reactions. Looking back, this has been going on ever since I brewed that beer - a love/hate relationship. So, looks like nothing has changed in what actually must be 6 months!
> 
> Spot ya,
> Pat



FWIW Pat I think the Lager tasted fantastic ! Very clean and well balanced IMHO (certainly not soapy). Perhaps I need to try it again to see if I still like it  .
Cheers
Doug


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

*Summary of Posts 301-350 in this thread:*

With the stresses of Christmas subsiding, people are returning to the subject at hand and presenting good solid experience and science.

Blake (finite?) reports good results on his first BIAB AG brew (303 - 315, 317), but not so great with his second (313). He appears to have left some sugars in his grain.

Deaves and PostModern explore more traditional mashing volume:grist ratios and hint at what could become an immersion heater vs gas flame debate (305, 306, 307, 310)

FNQ Bunyip reports rinsing his grains with a small quantity of warm water to gain more sugars. (314)

Phonos points to a published article by Dion Hollenbeck which lends credibility to full-volume mashing (318) which Thirsty Boy reinforces within a long, but important post (319) and subsequently addresses the question of bag squeezing and tannin extraction. (321)

Blake (finite?) reports a marathon no-chill Imperial IPA as his third BIAB brew but does not recommend it to others. (325, 327) Also posts a huge quantity of data and interpretations from his three BIAB brews. (331)

In response to a question from blackbock, Blake posts pictures of mashing with a drawstringless bag. (334)

Thirsty Boy discusses the lautering process and sparging as relevant to BIAB and batch-sparging - well worth several reads. (338)

Thirsty Boy posts proposing the use of a fermenter as a lauter tun to enable more conventional liquor:grist ratios during the mashing process. (339) lucas questions the method on the grounds that microbial exchange between boiled and unboiled wort might be bad. (342)

Darren, Ross and Thirsty Boy explore tannin extraction a little further. (344 - 347)


----------



## PistolPatch

Tried to post this message but it says I have too many emoticons. I've been mucking around here for a half an hour reducing emoticopns and it still won't accept my post. You'd reckon if you spend 3 hours writing, reviewing and refining that you wouldn't have to deal with this! Agh! 

This is the last time I am going to bother to keep my post count down answering a heap of questons in one post. I am way too polite!

Anyway, I'm going to try splitting the post into two... 

*Part 1!*

Finally, after two months, my broadband is working. Can't tell you guys how much easier this makes things. Hopefully my post quality will improve significantly as I won't be sitting up until all hours waiting for the next page to load. Phew! (Doesn't mean my posts will be any shorter but. I have some catching up to do )

*Doogie:* Thanks for posting the feedback mate. I swear that beer is the weirdest I have ever brewed. The other night I really liked it (except the aroma didn't seem to match the beer.) Last night it was very average but my mate thought it was very good. Old_Dog, AussieClaret and myself actually tasted it a few days before the last QLD swap right after his Aussie's brown ale and it truly tasted infected! Two hours later, after some food, it had somewhat returned to drinkable 

Next time I taste it and like it, I swear I am going to drink whatever is left in that keg!* (Will have Batz's Altbier ready for you soon)

*Ned the Bunyip:* Haven't thanked you for your post about ten posts ago! I think you and Eric8 (who sent me an email) are the only guys who have read the re-write of posts 1 to 4! LOL! Anyway, if you two think it's OK then I'm happy. No one has said they're no good so I'll just keep re-writing in that new format. (Ned's been brewing for 20 years and brews more BIAB beer in a week than I do in a month - only during the dry season but!) 

*Spills:* Top summary mate! Thanks also for all your help and correspondence which truly makes a difference. (I think Spills is going to become the BIAB Wiki Master!) Donya!

*RichardR* asked some questions in NRB's All Amarillo APA thread  which I thought might be better to answer here.

Some of the questions are not purely BIAB related but a lot of people who read the BIAB thread are just moving into AG and so will readily relate to these questions. Also, Richard has only been on the forum a few months and he lives in SE QLD so some of the following is a bit further off-topic. Zizzle needs a BIAB mate there so we better get him up and started asap


----------



## PistolPatch

OK Richard,

Great questions mate and I notice you live very close to Browndog. If you don't go to the Brewday at Browndog's I'm never going to answer any of your questions again  Seriously though, go. Browndog is a mate of mine for life. He invited me to my first Swap in QLD and farewelled me from my last. Zizzle will be there as well and can teach you a lot about BIAB - he was the first electric BIABer! So, post to that thread and tell them that PP and FNQBunyip (another mate for life) sent you as our representative. Then you can meet all our other mates for life!

I'm going to paraphrase your questions to kill a few birds with one stone which I hope doesn't detract from the very polite way in which they were asked...



> I have looked for the All Amarillo APA recipe in your post on BIAB but have not been able to find it.


This link was incorrectly worded. Have fixed it now. Well-spotted! That was the second time I buggered that up! Anyway, it is the first link in the first post of this thread.



> I am yet to get my first BIAB going and was interested of your comments on this brew.[/b]
> 
> Here's why I put the link to the recipe in Post #1...
> 
> Zizzle brewed his QLD swap beer from that recipe and even though certain hops were not available and therefore had to be substituted on the brewing day, it was my favourite beer of the swap. Zizzle and I have similiar tastes and neither of us would say that it was the best beer of the swap though, for me, it was. Plenty of the other beers required more skill (such as my lager  lol!) but most were not beers that a wide range of people would not have the palate to appreciate - especially in quantity! (For example, Jye loves doing OTT beers in the swap but they are brillaintly brewed and balanced.)
> 
> NRB's recipe produces a beer that, if you have kegs, you can brew up today and one week later, have every palate lust after it. So, even if you don't like your first AG, all your mates will and this will definitely give you confidence! In the last 2 weeks, I have been totally blown away by the comments of this recipe by the non-brewing fraternity. An experienced brewer may not think it special (I must ask Doogie what he thought?) but for anyone that like a Little Creatures Pale Ale, this recipe is ten times better.
> 
> It also only requires 2 hop additions and these are early in the boil (60 and 40 minutes). For the beginner's first few brews, the end of the boil can be hectic. Not having to worry about hop additions late in the boil is yet another bonus. Someone wrote to me today (can't remember who so I'll say it now..) asking why I didn't include the Skunk Fart Ale as a beginner recipe. The reason is two-fold. It requires multiple hop additions (4 or 5 if my memory serves me correctly compared to the 2 of NRB's) and it produces a beer of high IBU's that a new brewer's palate might not necessarily be attuned to let alone their mates.
> 
> The final reason why I included this recipe as a possible first BIAB was it's tolerance level. I've only brewed it twice. The first time, I was doing exactly what I am doing now - answering questions on AHB while having a beer but I was brewing as well! I would have written about this somewhere else but the end result was that I had to do a second boil of the 8 litres I had draining from my bag (which is meant to be thrown in at the start of the boil) that I'd forgotten - whoops! My longest BIAB brew day ever!
> 
> I even threw in 8 grams of extra hops - don't know why - and the beer still ended up a delight but only 80% of what the correctly brewed version turned out to be. Oh, and that was another cock-up. NRB, in his recipe had the flavour hps posted first. I whacked them in as the boiling hops! The rest of his hop schedule and recipe I followed exactly. Yum!
> 
> I took the first batch to Asher's brew day here in Perth and came home with an almost empty keg so, inless I drank it all, I'm confident in saying that NRB has come up with a simple, tolerant, widely-appreciated recipe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, how do you bottle your beer from the keg??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agh!!!! The best question of all which no one knows the answer too I reckon!
> 
> I think when anyone tries to answer that question we often have in the back of our minds, how would you bottle from the keg if you were doing this for a swap beer or a competition? I've never thought of it this way before tonight actually! Mmmmm. Interesting...
> 
> OK, well, let's forget the Swap beers (they'll be hardest to bottle for as they will probably have to wait for ages to be drunk.) Let's forget about competition beers (better still, ask Ross as he does it all the time with top results.)
> 
> Let's look at what will bring most joy - being able to take a few bottles directly from your tap around to a mate's place. In other words, the bottles will be devoured in the next day or two....
> 
> Here's what I have discovered in the last two weeks. Make sure that your beer line is balanced. For most people, this means having 2m of standard beer line between the keg and the tap. Once you have this, it means you can pour a decent beer from your tap. It also means that you can leave your CO2 on 24 hours a day/7days a week with no pouring probs. Sure, if you get a gas leak, you've lost a cylinder, but I can tell you that the delight of pouring clean beer on a first pull outweighs any fear of the unlikelihood of losing a cylinder of gas. If you live in the same room as your CO2 cylinder and it leaks, you'll probably die but you won't know, so where's the problem on that?
> 
> Anyway, what I have donne lately, is ten minutes before I want some bottles, I throw my nice glass beer jug in the freezer. I also chuck the PET Coopers vottles in as well but I don't think this makes any difference. I pour a jug and then I fill the bottles from the jug.
> 
> Simple as that! And it's all fine by the time I arrive wherever I have to be.
> 
> So, not a total answer Richard but a practical one!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you use an adjustable regulator on your 3 Ring burner???
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I do mate but it is not necessary. It's a bloody good question too! My first brew worked a treat without an adjustable regulator and then it went downhill from there. I finally bought an adjustable regulator and things improved. Pretty sure that Screwtop (one of the funniest and most imformative buggers you'll meet - also in QLD) suggested drilling the holes out of your ring burner with a 1.0 to 1.5mm drill bit. His advice must have come about a day after Brad_G and I did the side-by side BIAB versus Batch test because Brad's burner was up the duff and we spent half the day driving around trying to find a camping shop that sold adjustable regulators!
> 
> Actually, from memory, the advice came simultaneously from Screwtop and one of the camping shop guys - drill your holes out. It was Screwtop though who offered the logic. What happens, with your ring burner is that the green paint melts and fills the holes on the first burn. Drill or poke it out and no worries. I'd do the 1mm bit first as Brad reckons his outer two rings are tops but he has lost his inner ring.
> 
> Anyway Richard, that's it from me. I should have finished on something witty - the last two sentences of the last paragraph would keep Sqyre and InCider (your fellow QLD'ers) going for days!
> 
> Looking forward to seeing *your* picture at Browndog's Brew Day.
> 
> No pressure but!
> Pat
> 
> 
> *Had another crack about a third a way into this post. Tastes *very*good tonight! Agh!
Click to expand...


----------



## 3GumsBrewing

Hi guys,

Quick question, how would *Cold Steeping* go with the BIAB method, I am finding I am running out of time these days and thought that for my next beer (a dry stout) I might try cold steeping overnight.

Would anyone recommend following the usual method of adding all the grain to the bag, popping it into the pot with around 38L of water, putting the lid on and leaving for 24 hours. Then the following day boiling and hopping as normal?

Anyone tried this?

**Loving this BIAB business!!**

Cheers
DK


----------



## therook

davekate,

have a look at this link, its not steeping but mashing overnight.

Also check the link Johnno has posted in this thread as well

link

Rook


----------



## PistolPatch

Thank God for Rook! I would have no idea how to answer that!

Anyway guys, the BIAB re-write is going to have to wait. I seriously need to take a break from AHB for reasons explained here

Hope to see davekate's and many other names on Bunyip's BIAB Register when I get back.

Happy brewing to you,
Pat


----------



## poppa joe

Gave a couple stubbies to my LHBS.....My first full BIAB...
HE LIKED IT...ALL Gone now anyway...(Wonder what i done wrong???????)
PJ
Hard to get grains here the only one selling closed down last week...


----------



## poppa joe

OOOPPPS Sorry WRONG Attachment.....
PJ


----------



## Hashie

In the name of home brew science, I decided to try what Pistolpatch says not to do.
I added my grains to the heating water at 35 Deg and allowed it to heat with the water to 66 Deg.

Never, ever again!

2 major problems I found;

1. my efficiency went through the floor. My first 2 BIAB's had 70 ~75% efficiency. Yesterday 55% :angry: 

2. even with lots of agitating during and after heating to 66 Deg. I burnt a hole in the bloody bag :blink: 

So from here on in, I'll be getting the water to temp, then adding the grain bill.

Cheers

Edit; spelling


----------



## PistolPatch

Proud of you Hashie!

I'm so sorry that you burned your bag mate. That's a bastard. On the plus side (for us anyway) that's very interesting data. It reflects what Capretta found above when he batch sparges that way.

Thanks for educating us all mate.

:super: 
Pat

P.S. I still want to refrain from writing on AHB as much as possible for a while so please excuse me if I don't write anything here for a while. I am trying to increase my brewing knowledge a bit at the moment though by asking some questions. I'm sure that you guys will find the answers being given here on ways to measure efficiency as interesting as I have.


----------



## Hashie

Cheers Pat, no big drama with the bag, had a spare just in case.

Will be doing another brew on Wednesday, so it's all good.


----------



## jimmysuperlative

*Summary of posts 251 300 in this thread:*

drK still unmoved from his position that BIAB will produce low attenuation, dextrinous wort and high finishing gravity challenges BIABers to post actual S.G. and F.G. results. (Fair enough!)

Zizzle, PistolPatch, Maxt _et al_ provide records for BIAB beers 

wobbly, using the "All In One" principle(catalyst for BIAB method), weighs in with his results (263). wobbly reports pleasing results and favourable comment from other traditional AG brewers.

hughman666 -who started out BIAB and moved to more traditional AG brews- shows us some side-by-side comparisons BIAB/Traditional AG hughman666 reports no noticeable difference in taste and figures show little difference in OGs and FGs. (265)

Blake joins the ranks with his first BIAB (interesting start to brewday forgetting key component of BIAB - THE BAG !!!) but, recovers well.

deaves also reports a successful first BIAB.

wobbly, who was using the All-In-One concept linky, decides the method does not produce beers of a quality attained using more traditional mashing methods and returns to his tried and tested brewing method. wobbly cites chill haze, sweetness (finished beer) and also dissatisfaction with some of the equipment being used in his All-In-One method.(277)

Zizzle posts pics of his BIAB rig featuring bag hoist and action pics of wort in rolling boil using 2 x 2200W electric elements.(278)

drK points to wobblys experience as more proof that BIAB produces high beta amylase and poorly attenuated beers.(279)

BIAB brewers counter that BIAB is producing good beer, is a good transition from K&K to AG, shouldnt be knocked until you try it etc with some concession that BIAB is still in development as a method and it is important to look at ways to improve it.

PostModern suggests dough in with a traditional liquor/grist ratio of 2.5/kg. Mashing for 60mins, then adding rest of water to rinse out extra sugars as a way of combating the beta amylase issue.
A few brewers point out that PoMos idea takes away from the one vessel character of BIAB but, the input is appreciated as constructive.

After more reports of acceptable beers made using this method, and results indicating reasonable to good efficiency, PostModern (300) makes the following observation:


> (Dec 27 2006, 02:11 PM)
> From the theory that Dr K is preaching, the worts should be dextrinous. ie in thin mashes the alpha amylase will perform at a normal rate, but beta amylase will be retarded, thus leaving longer sugar chains that the yeast can't ferment, thus leaving sweeter, underattenuated beers. From what people are posting, this doesn't seem to be actually happening.


----------



## The King of Spain

Guys why don't you (mods) put the summary replies in a seperate thread, new brewers still have to sift threw a lot of posts to get to the "summarys"

Just a thought


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

deaves said:


> Guys why don't you (mods) put the summary replies in a seperate thread, new brewers still have to sift threw a lot of posts to get to the "summarys"
> 
> Just a thought



Unfinished work, deaves...  

PistolPatch (I am told), upon returning from his convalescence  will be continuing his work on producing the finished product. If you are new to the thread, you will be presented with the beginning of the thread which contains four posts that form a meta-summarisation of what jimmysuperlative, thirstyboy, etc are summarising.

There is also much work going on to refine the guide.

It won't happen over night, but...


----------



## PistolPatch

Thank you Jimmy for the excellent summary. A top job!

I was hoping (now that I'm over my convalescence - lol) to go through and summarise the summaries today but ran out of time. Should be able to get it done this weekend.

I was also wondering if anyone had a way of weighing there mash after they had drained it? I tried the otehr day with bathroom scales but got readings all over the place. It would be interesting though to know if the BIAB mash retained less water than a traditional mash.

Thanks again Jimmy :super:


----------



## Brewtus

Aren't there hook scales you could hang the bag from to weigh it that are normally used for fish etc.?


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

I think its pretty obvious that we get more wort out of our grain than a traditional mash ton because we lift the grain up and out . The whole lifting the bag places some pressure on the grain and then by giving a bit of a squeeze we get the last out . A mash ton just left to drain wont get the presure on the grain so it will hold more wort in the grain bed ..


The only question is "how much ".. ??

:beer:


----------



## Adamt

Absolutely correct bunyip; BIAB does get more wort out of the grain due to the squeezing. However, The BIAB process does not involve rinsing the grain with twice the mash water volume. The rinsing gets hot, fresh water inside the grain to dissolve sugars which is then forced out by more hot water, leaving more water in the grain than BIAB but most probably putting more sugar into the wort. So BIAB does obtain more wort from the same mash volume, however may leave sugar stuck in the grain as it is not adequately rinsed/sparged.


----------



## Hashie

PistolPatch said:


> I was also wondering if anyone had a way of weighing there mash after they had drained it? I tried the otehr day with bathroom scales but got readings all over the place. It would be interesting though to know if the BIAB mash retained less water than a traditional mash.
> 
> Thanks again Jimmy :super:



Hey Pat, I measured my wort on Tuesday when I did Aiden's Irish Red. I use a calibrated stick (calibrated at 1 litre intervals). I started with 35 litres in the keggle, after mashing 4.64 kg of grain, removing the bag and draining back into the keggle. I had 33 litres pre-boil. So a loss of 2 litres in 4.64 kg of grain. This was a much smaller loss than I was expecting.

Hope this helps.
Cheers


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

I acknowledge that I am not strictly brewing in a single vessel. 

Once I've drained/squeezed as much liquid out of my grain as I can, I dunk-sparge the bag in my 20litre bucket and 9litres of very hot water. A bit of jiggling, more draining and squeezing and I have quite a bit more sugar into my pot. 

Yesterday's effort saw me with 24.5 litres of 1.080 wort from 5kg pilsner malt and 2kg 'other sugars'. About 0.5litres was left in the boiler and I expect to leave about 1litre in the cube with the rest of the yuck that falls out. I'm pretty happy with that.

Although I believe the BIAB process is quite efficient, I also think that incremental improvement can be made using the sorts of things you're likely to find laying around the house. (Not teenage sons, ageing pets and the like!)


----------



## Zizzle

Sure you can squeeze more out with BIAB, but I find I get heaps more break/trub in the kettle at the end of the boil, preventing me from draining all the wort off.

A batch sparge seems to produce much less break material for me.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

Zizzle said:


> Sure you can squeeze more out with BIAB, but I find I get heaps more break/trub in the kettle at the end of the boil, preventing me from draining all the wort off.
> 
> A batch sparge seems to produce much less break material for me.



There does seem to be a fair bit of break/trub with BIAB. I filter out as much as I can as I move it from the kettle to my No-Chill cuboids and the rest settles to the bottom of the cube before I heave it into the fermenter. Some of my BIAB/No-Chill worts are clearer than I've purchased from the professionals.

I'm primarily concerned with what flavours that stuff adds to my beer if I leave it in there while fermenting. Different people make different claims about flavour impact (no surprises there!). I'm continuing to work for clear worts, although several people just don't bother.


----------



## PistolPatch

*Thanks for the figures Hashie.* That's about the same as what I get. Makes sense too when you think about what Ned says. This also explains the increas in efficiency with BIAB. A couple of extra litres makes a big difference here. Cheers mate!

*Extra Trub* I personally haven't noticed any difference but then again I wasn't looking for any so I wouldn't know. It makes sense though that there would be extra trub with BIAB but...

Assuming the above is right, I think that whether you batch or BIAB would actually make no difference to the 'real' amount of trub. All that would change is the stage of the brewing process where you get rid of the extra trub...

In batching, you get rid of the 'extra trub' when you sparge. The grain bed would filter the extra trub out. It also has the penalty (by the look of our figures) of losing a few litres of wort.

In BIAB, the extra trub ends up at the bottom of the kettle. Here you also lose a few litres because you can't syphon off as much.

End result I imagine is pretty close.

BIAB does seem to end up with a clearer wort at the end of the boil. Some people say that a cloudy wort during the boil is actually good so we could even say that BIAB has the best of both worlds but that would be a biassed and unproven statement which I would never indulge in unless I wanted to provoke a little deeper thinking.


Pat


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

Adamt said:


> Absolutely correct bunyip; BIAB does get more wort out of the grain due to the squeezing. However, The BIAB process does not involve rinsing the grain with twice the mash water volume. The rinsing gets hot, fresh water inside the grain to dissolve sugars which is then forced out by more hot water, leaving more water in the grain than BIAB but most probably putting more sugar into the wort. So BIAB does obtain more wort from the same mash volume, however may leave sugar stuck in the grain as it is not adequately rinsed/sparged.




While the BIAB guide may not call for rinceing , I have been rinceing may grains for a while now(15brews at least) to unlock the sugars you mention as being caught in the grain. I first tryed just pouring 3 lt though when I lifted the bag up and have now moved to dunking and jiggleing my bag in the second boiler befor I add its grain bill and then in a bucket as Spills noted he is doing as well .. 

:beer:


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

I've just been dipping into this thread as Julia Zemero glares over her nose at me and I finish off a bottle of Pale Ale with Saaz B and Cascade (a surprisingly good mix) ...

It has taken me a bit of time to get used to the cloudiness of my wort as I boil it. Others I have seen are quite clear whereas mine are completely opaque. But I add my Irish Moss religiously and it becomes exceptionally clear in the cuboid. Ditto in the bottle.

My conclusion is that it has nothing at all to do with the brewing technique - it's either my use of the moss or settling or some such thing...

Thoughts?


----------



## PistolPatch

That was a good idea on the fish scales Brewtus. Alas, I don't have any!

Spills I have a good pic of how much trub settles out and how clear the wort is at the end of the boil that I'll post up later. Never really noticed any real opaqueness during the boil but it's not something I've really looked for. Not much help for you mate.

After seeing you guys doing all this rinsing, I thought I'd try something a little different on last weekend's brew.

At the end of the mash, I raised the wort temp to 78 degrees, donned the rubber gloves and gave the bag a very hard drain and squeeze.

The figures I took were pretty meticulous. (One interesting thing was that according to ruler measurements, when I dumped my grain in it added another 4 litres to the volume. When I removed it and squeezed it, the volume only dropped by 5.5lts. A pretty inaccurate way of measuring the weight of the mash but interesting all the same.)

Anyway, the 'final efficiency,' (wort including trub) was 76.5%.

Next time I brew this beer, I'll do it the way I normally do and see if there is a difference. Mind you, after all the efficiency study I've been doing lately, one thing I do know is that you have to take measurements over several brews before you can be sure a change in brewing method really does make a particular difference.

Spot ya,
Pat


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

PistolPatch said:


> That was a good idea on the fish scales Brewtus. Alas, I don't have any!



There goes my theory that PistolPatch was actually a King George Whiting... :blink:


----------



## PistolPatch

Good on ya Spills  

I'm currently doing everything I can to avoid working on the BIAB re-write and summaries  (I have to be in the mood for that stuff.)

But, I do have a few thoughts that might inspire some more thinking on BIAB. I'm going to start with the recent feedback on the 'extra' rinsing of the grain and finish with some new areas that I think deserve our attention.

I can also tell you now, before I even have a beer (it's 4:00pm here), that this is going to be a long post  The following contains also a lot of my personal opinions on or experiences of BIAB and therefore a lot of what I'll say is supposition that may end up being disproved.

*'Extra Rinsing of the Grain'*

Since the original idea of full-volume brewing was proposed h ere by James Squire in the All In One Brewery thread, there have been questions on whether such a large liquor to grain ratio would work. Even though we now know it does, a few people are still tempted to mash at lower volumes. My question is, 'Why?'

A lot of stuff in home all-grain brewing comes from commercial brewing where they have space and volume limitations. The science adopted doesnt always mean that you will get a better beer. Often it just means that you will get a more commercially viable beer. Personally, mashing at full volume logically makes more sense to me for a better beer. Batch-sparging makes the next best sense and fly-sparging the least for getting quality beer.

Hoops has been the only one to date that could pick the diff between a batch-sparged and BIABed beer. He found the BIAB beer to be slightly less astringent but with slightly less body. We are talking here though about minute levels no one else could spot a difference in the blind tastings. (I'm doing another side-by-side brew over here soon by the way.)

No matter what brewing method you use, assuming the same boil time, you are limited to exactly the same amount of water to mash and sparge with. The only question is the quantities, times and temperatures at which you apply the available water.

If the idea of mashing and sparging is to get the most sugar out of the grain, then I cannot see how batching or fly-sparging would be any better than BIAB.

Let me put it another way. Let's say you have a coffee mug 1/3 full of sugar and you only have 1 cup of water to dissolve it in. You can either add a little bit of water, drain it off, add some more drain it off etc or you can just stir in the whole lot. The solution is going to be saturated no matter what you do.

To the above we also have the problem of astringency. This is not a problem with BIAB or batch-sparging. It is critical in fly-sparging (which I know bugger all about.)

In fly-sparging, from what I know, sugars from the grain at the top of the bed are going to be very leached whilst the grain at the bottom is substantially less leached.

In batching, this is less the case and in BIAB less again.

So, my first major supposition (and remember I started out batch-sparging) is that I think full-volume mashing (of which BIAB is a form) would give the most 'even' extraction of sugar without any astringency. Remember that we don't have the limitations of commercial breweries.

And, if we raise the temperature of the mash to 78 degrees as I did in my last brew (see my last post here) then isn't this even better again?

ThirstyBoy who I, and I'm pretty sure anyone with half a brain, respects and admires for his intelligent posts, recently wrote the following on the American, 'The Brewing Network'...



> Just a quick little update and minor advertisement for the BIAB thing.
> 
> My mate who I taught to BIAB on new years day (he's the hungover looking one in the pictorial.... wait, that was both of us!) anyway, he came down to visit and we had a brew session on Thursday evening.
> 
> I showed him how I brew on my more trad system. 3 vessl quasi HERMS.
> 
> I did a multi step mash, so we got to play with re-circulation, protien rests, pumps and all the attendant stuff. I batch sparged with 3 drainings.
> 
> At the end of the 7 hours... he basically couldn't see a single reason to change from his much simpler and easier regimen. And he brought down the last bottle of the beer we made on New Years Day. A modified version of Denny's Rye IPA --- And quite frankly, I cant see why he would want to change either, it was superb. At least as good as any of the IPAs I tasted at a recent beer festival with 15 micro breweries in attendance. His very first AG beer was as good as anything I have brewed, and better than a lot of it.
> 
> Of course, I gave him a sample of a reasonably complex brew day. I could have just done a single infusion. But now he's brewed both ways and his decision to stay with BAIB or move on, is a little more of an informed one. To be honest if someone handed me the beer he did; and then told me they were planning on radically altering their brewing process... I'd call them crazy.
> 
> Any lingering doubts I might have had about Brewing in a Bag have been well and truly vanquished. Of course now I have to worry about my own brewing.... and why it doesn't seem to be as good as Col's. Bugger
> 
> Thirsty



*My Fears on BIAB's Future*

Unfortunately, there are only two of us so far who have moved either completely or partially from traditional methods to BIAB. Thirsty has a friggin' HERMS for God's sake and already does his smaller batches with BIAB. Bloody credit to him I reckon. I, at least had some extra motivation to use BIAB due to my brewing space limitations.

The only credibility I have to add to the BIAB method is that I spend a lot of time and I've also spent a lot of money on brewing. It's one area of my life where I have said, 'I'll spend what I want to get this right.' I have brewed very 'hard' beers. Many beers can be brewed by anyone under any method. More subtle beers cannot. The very hard beers (such as very low-hopped German Lagers) I have brewed I, personally, have found unsatisfying for various reasons but others have given them an honest thumbs up. I have only once or twice tasted other 'hard' beers in the same style and couldn't taste a difference. Any 'easy' beer I've brewed has always at least equalled it's counterparts.

I am totally confident in BIAB when brewing hard beers. Just need to find the right recipe, mash temp etc etc.

My fear (and I think it is somewhat unfounded) is that with only Thirsty and myself changing their brewing habits, other new brewers may automatically think that BIAB is just a stepping stone to better beers.

Thirsty, myself and tastings to date should show that this is a total untruth.

I am also really pleased that when you look at the BIAB register, very few people have changed their method. The beer _is_ very good.

Another real credit to BIAB or, more properly, AHB, is that the traditional brewers are not knocking the method. They are and have been very open-minded. Several have actively contributed to the relevant threads and others have tasted BIAB with postivie feedback.

Frankly, this is bloody great and without such open-minded traditional brewers interest, input and feedback, both BIAB and full-volume brewing would not have had a hope.

I think though...

*It's About Time We Formally Validated BIAB*

To enable BIAB brewers to more confidently plough on with new ideas (see below) I think it's about time we started entering some competitions. I have no idea on how to do this and so will start another thread tonight where we can get some advice. Here's the thread

(Whoops! The thread has been closed! Maybe use this one  instead.)

I'm happy to enter some of my, 'easy,' beers. It would be great to get some official feedback.

If we get some great feedback then we can move into some really exciting areas...

*Making BIAB More Elegant*

I think that once everyone is a little more confident in BIAB we can start playing around with a few ideas that will make BIAB a bit more technically elegant. I'd love this.

For example, replace the bag with a skyhook and fine mesh 'frying basket.' The question then is, 'How fine can we go?' (A lot of thought has already been put into this in James Squire's 'All In One Brewery' thread.

Then we can think on the perfect BIAB brewstand!

Looking forward to your thoughts,
Pat

P.S. That only took 2hrs 25 minutes! Could be my most 'efficient' post yet


----------



## bayWeiss

PistolPatch said:


> ...
> If the idea of mashing and sparging is to get the most sugar out of the grain, then I cannot see how batching or fly-sparging would be any better than BIAB.
> 
> Let me put it another way. Let's say you have a coffee mug 1/3 full of sugar and you only have 1 cup of water to dissolve it in. You can either add a little bit of water, drain it off, add some more drain it off etc or you can just stir in the whole lot. The solution is going to be saturated no matter what you do.
> 
> ...



PP, I am not sure it is that simple. I did a little research on grist ratios (which is the main difference between BIAB and more traditional methods), and how it affects the final beer. I came upon this gem of knowledge->

_"High mash temperatures favor a less fermentable wort because alpha-amylase is a lot more stable than beta-amylase is at higher temperatures. This means that there will be less production of maltose as the activity of beta-amylase diminishes. It is hard to say that beta-amylase activity will be expected to drop off at a particular temperature, because the thickness will determine what temperature activates maximum beta-amylase activity. Thicker mashes tend to retain more beta-amylase activity at high mash temperatures than do thin mashes. This is because beta-amylase is more stable when joined with its substrate than when it is not. 

Because beta-amylase encounters substrate less frequently in a thin mash, there is more opportunity for it to be destabilized and inactivated. "_

it came from here.

.. so to make a long story short... the thinner the mash, the lower in temperature you have to mash in order to achieve the same level of fermentability as you would with a normal thickness mash. 

That being said, has anyone noticed any higher finishing gravities using BIAB, as opposed to another method? I am curious to see whether reality fits theory. 

*Edit*: Do not take this post too seriously, after writing this post I went back and read some of the "previous" pages and now realize that this topic has been beaten to a bloody death.  

:beer:


----------



## Stuster

Ahh, bayweiss, if only you'd read the whole thread  you'd have seen this came up many pages ago. A rather lengthy 'discussion' on this ensued. From all the figures given by BIABers, it appears that the theory is not borne out in practice, with most reporting fairly normal FG figures. There was one dissenting BIABer who decided to change to more traditional mashing as he felt his beers were not attenuating as much as they could have, but otherwise it just doesn't seem to matter in the way the theory predicts.


----------



## bayWeiss

Stuster said:


> Ahh, bayweiss, if only you'd read the whole thread  you'd have seen this came up many pages ago. A rather lengthy 'discussion' on this ensued. From all the figures given by BIABers, it appears that the theory is not borne out in practice, with most reporting fairly normal FG figures. There was one dissenting BIABer who decided to change to more traditional mashing as he felt his beers were not attenuating as much as they could have, but otherwise it just doesn't seem to matter in the way the theory predicts.



Ah so!!!! I will skim through this thread again. LOL. I just learned about the beta-amylase connection to mash thickness today. I have known for a while that thicker mashes produce more fermentable wort, but I never knew why until I read the article. Ok... thx!

Edit: I just read back to ThirstyBoy's post (250 posts previous to this), and he mentions the same thing about the enzymes...whew, this thread is large.

cheers!


----------



## Stuster

From what I've read, it appears that mash temperature is far more important than mash thickness in terms of the level of unfermentables in the wort. I have read that it's best to leave a thinner mash for longer to ensure conversion. But since most conversion happens within 15-20 minutes with modern malts, a normal length mash seems like it should be plenty long enough and does appear to be with BIAB.


----------



## Adamt

bayWeiss said:


> Ah so!!!! I will skim through this thread again. LOL. I just learned about the beta-amylase connection to mash thickness today. I have known for a while that thicker mashes produce more fermentable wort, but I never knew why until I read the article. Ok... thx!
> 
> Edit: I just read back to ThirstyBoy's post (250 posts previous to this), and he mentions the same thing about the enzymes...whew, this thread is large.
> 
> cheers!




I think it may be time for a summary of the summary threads


----------



## warrenlw63

If you join BIAB do you get your own badge and Light Sabre? B) 

If so I want in.

Warren -


----------



## KoNG

PistolPatch said:


> *It's About Time We Formally Validated BIAB*
> 
> Looking forward to your thoughts,
> Pat
> 
> P.S. That only took 2hrs 25 minutes! Could be my most 'efficient' post yet



 your not serious are you...? Its only making beer at home, soon you'll be looking into getting ISO 9001 accreditation..! h34r:


----------



## PistolPatch

Bayweiss: Thanks for the very interesting info mate. I'm sure the info would be totally correct though I've never seen actual figures pulisehd on stuff like that. I'm guessing the effects are probably quite small. Combine this with the often huge difference between two people's thermometers and the point probably does become negigible for us homebrewers.

Stuster: Yeah, I reckon you are spot on with the temp being more important. Maybe that was what drK was trying to say 250 posts ago 

Warren: Bulk Buy on badges and sabres is being organised. Who leaked that info?

Kong: I've been a bit too scared to read that last post. Man was it long! When I said, 'formally validated,' what I meant was to enter the beers in a few comps so users of the method would feel more confident or informed of BIAB's quality. What I'd hate to see is people spending a lot of time or money buying more equipment with the expectation that it will produce a better beer. At this stage there is no evidence to say it will. More evidence though would be a good thing. With this in mind, I'm going to do another two side by side brews with two of the Perth guys. We'll follow this with another triangular testing and this time I will send some bottles off to some professional tasters to see what they reckon. I think tests like this are very interesting and informative. I imagine judge's feedback would be as well.

Adamt: I have no long posts up my sleeve tonight thank God so I'll divert my attention right now to getting the Summary of Summaries done. I can see it will take me about half an hour just to find the summaries! Anyway, expect a significant improvement to Post#3 in a few hours.

Thanks guys,
Pat


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## SpillsMostOfIt

Put me down for doing the Summary of Summaries of Summaries... :blink:


----------



## T.D.

PistolPatch said:


> When I said, 'formally validated,' what I meant was to enter the beers in a few comps so users of the method would feel more confident or informed of BIAB's quality.



PP, 

I think the biggest problem you face is the name! Like it or not "Brewing in a Bag" has kind of a negative connotation I think. I mean, essentially its just "no-sparge" brewing (apart from some other minor details like the single vessel thing). No-sparge brewing has long been considered a method that can produce extremely good beers. It yields terrible efficiency, obviously, but on the flip side there are no concerns about leaching tannins from the grain husks etc. I just kind of feel as if you are trying to "validate" something that is not a new or technically inferior method (apart from the efficiency bit), purely because it has been effectively "re-labeled" as BIAB. I must say, if I was judging beers in a comp and I knew the next one was brewed with the no-sparge method, I would be anticipating something potentially very good.


----------



## warrenlw63

Which could effectively lead to BIAB splinter groups.

Time to take sides... Are you in fact a jiggler or a dangler? h34r: 

Warren -


----------



## PistolPatch

T.D.: Thanks for the excuse to have a break from writing the summaries 

BIAB is actually not, 'no-sparge' brewing as traditionally known. 'No-sparge' uses about 2/3 of the total brewing volume of water required in the mash and then the remaining 1/3 that would be normally used for sparging is just added straight to the kettle. This is why the efficiency is low and therefore needs about 25% more grain to compensate but the maltiness is higher. Trough Lolly wrote several brilliant posts on this in the 'All In One Brewery' thread. His first one is here

For this reason, we've been describing BIAB as a 'full-volume' method. BIAB uses the same grain bill as in batching or fly and the same water but ALL the water goes into the mash. So, the efficiency is great but, as with batch-sparging and fly-sparging, you won't get that extra maltiness that comes with 'no-sparge' brewing.

Screwtop came up with the name but he is away at the moment so we can easily change it 

LOL
Pat


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

I think that, if you wish to think of us as such, we are yet to succeed as evangelists. BIAB brewing is seen by many as a stepping stone to 'proper' all-grain brewing methods and a clear compromise, therefore an inferior method - by others as simply as a silly, ill-informed indulgence that produces inferior beer.

I believe that multi-vessel methods which involve clearly-delineated procedural elements residing in their own vessels and are supported by clubs, societies and influential individuals are an accepted norm. To suggest that a result of similar outcome can be achieved with less expense, procedure and effort is too challenging to many of them.

I am of a view that you can brew very good beer with this method and that it is a valid method. What we have to do is demonstrate this to others (duh!).

The question is how do we do so? Entry to competitions appears to be the most prominent way, along with continual representation in discussion fora, etc.

I suspect that there are too many people with too much to lose for it to gain mainstream acceptance, but in a sense it does not matter - some of us know that it produces a great beer and that (to me at least) is enough.

Sometimes, the best way to prove a point is to simply live it.

Failing that, perhaps we should buy some billboard space promoting Brew In A Bag?


----------



## KoNG

Exactly SpillsmostofIt, I'm the same.. for a few years now i have been longing for the 'false bottom' boys to accept us mere 'braid' lads.!! its ridiculous, just because the major breweries use that process i can tell i get looked at down the nose by those wanky false bottom homebrewers. One day, just one day.. i'll brew a cracking braided APA and win the nationals... show em all i will..!


----------



## T.D.

KoNG said:


> Exactly SpillsmostofIt, I'm the same.. for a few years now i have been longing for the 'false bottom' boys to accept us mere 'braid' lads.!! its ridiculous, just because the major breweries use that process i can tell i get looked at down the nose by those wanky false bottom homebrewers. One day, just one day.. i'll brew a cracking braided APA and win the nationals... show em all i will..!



Pfft!!! With a braid??? You must be joking! h34r: 

I reckon even BIAB would have a better chance than crappy braid!!! :lol:


----------



## warrenlw63

KoNG said:


> Exactly SpillsmostofIt, I'm the same.. for a few years now i have been longing for the 'false bottom' boys to accept us mere 'braid' lads.!! its ridiculous, just because the major breweries use that process i can tell i get looked at down the nose by those wanky false bottom homebrewers. One day, just one day.. i'll brew a cracking braided APA and win the nationals... show em all i will..!



Hair Braids don't count.  

Happy 1000th Braid sissy boy. :lol: 

Warren -


----------



## Stuster

Hooray for braided bottoms!  :lol: 

Sorry to further the OT talk, BIABers.

SMOI, for me and probably a lot of other brewers here, I had my system (if you can call it that) set up before BIAB came up on AHB. So with a system that already serves me fine, there is no reason to try BIAB other than curiousity. However, my general laziness keeps me safe from experimenting with it.


----------



## Thommo

I'll actually be witnessing the BIAB method this Saturday at the HBG Big Brew Day. Phrak is doing one.

I'm really looking forward to it. I've gotten my brother in law back into home brewing after a four year break, and he was really starting to enjoy it. (Then he had a few of my AG's and he's cut back a bit - but on the plus side he's started buying more expensive beer). If it's as simple as it sounds, I may be able to brain wash a new convert for you BIABers.

As for a BIAB winning a noteable prize in a comp, I am sure it can and one day will happen. However, look at all the furore that occurred on this very forum when a kit beer won best in show. Somehow I don't think a BIAB winning will still be enough to convince some die hards that it could be a valid method. :wacko:


Cheers,
Thommo
(A very proud Braid Boy  )


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## PistolPatch

LOL!

I must say that the traditional brewers here have been extremely supportive. I can only think of one person off the top of my head who has been negative to tell you the truth. Heaps have supplied some interesting scientific points, questions, answers and much encouragement.

So, I don't think traditional guys are looking down on BIAB at all. I just think that it would be good for confidence levels of the guys that have only done or tasted BIABs if we had a few more tasting notes.

Hey Thommo! Make sure you take heaps of pics and ply Phrak with lots of beer. Can't wait to hear the report 

Spot ya ron,
Pat


----------



## KoNG

PistolPatch said:


> I must say that the traditional brewers here have been extremely supportive.
> Spot ya ron,
> Pat



i think thats the point "right" there, why has it been decided that BIAB is so removed from traditional brewing..? what is traditional brewing.? jeez we should all be waiting for our barley porridge to spontaneously ferment if we are to be traditional.

We are all just trying to get sugars out of the grain, so to feed our friendly yeast.
no need to complicate or validate things.
Heck CUB have a multi million dollar brewery, yet we all know what they churn out...

and

Just because someone has a "B3" doesnt mean they will create a better beer than us mere braided mortals...

:super:


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## warrenlw63

Seriously Pat all it does seem to extend to is you wanting the gratification of reinventing the wheel.  

Warren -


----------



## Darren

KoNG said:


> Heck CUB have a multi million dollar brewery, yet we all know what they churn out...
> 
> 
> :super:




Kong,

like to see you churn something even mildly comparable to what they make. I dont like it either but i sure as hell cannot make it.

Yes, I have a couple of goes over the years.

cheers

Darren


----------



## PistolPatch

There is one guy on the forum who has been bag brewing for several years. I sent him a PM and asked him to post more details but unfortunately I didn't hear back. I have been meaning to wade through the All In One thread and try him again.

The method has not been done on a wide scale basis that we know of until now.

If all the guys here who have spent hours and hours thinking through this concept and, in the early days, testing it, have been reinventing the wheel then it would have been nice if someone told us a year ago where the concept was nicely written up for us. It would have saved us all a heap of time.

So, please let us know now where the info on this particular wheel can be found. We'll be pleased to have another source to learn from.

I find it astounding that sometimes when you make a point, then make it several more times in progressively simpler language until your sentences match those in a children's book, the point is still mis-interpreted.

I can't possibly explain the reason/motivation behind wanting to get a few more taste tests done on BIAB beer any simpler or clearer than I already have.


----------



## PistolPatch

While I think of it....

Ned (who is my mate and won't mind me asking the following,) I know you have been away fishing but when you are back, can you tell me/us if the water you use to rinse the grain with are over and above the normal volumes?

From what I read on closer examination whilst summarising the summaries, they actually are extra litres.

But, at what stage should we stop adding those extra litres?

What I am trying to say is that you can add litres of water to both the traditional sparge or BIAB system and you will always get increased efficiency. You will have to compensate this with an increase in boil time though.

Does what I am saying make sense?

What I am thinking is that we could reach near 100% efficiency if we ran enough water through our grain. Then, we would just boil it off. But, the higher volume we needed would cost a lot to boil off.

For the first time ever, I can see why striving for 100% efficiency may have even bigger problems than I originally thought.

I'm thinking that I also may have missed something quite obvious here. For the moment though I find the above intriguing - something I have never thought of before.

Am I missing something?

[Edit: Well it was intrigueing last night anyway - lol]


----------



## Kingy

warrenlw63 said:


> Which could effectively lead to BIAB splinter groups.
> 
> Time to take sides... Are you in fact a jiggler or a dangler? h34r:
> 
> Warren -








h34r:


----------



## Thirsty Boy

PistolPatch said:


> What I am trying to say is that you can add litres of water to both the traditional sparge or BIAB system and you will always get increased efficiency. You will have to compensate this with an increase in boil time though. . . . . What I am thinking is that we could reach near 100% efficiency if we ran enough water through our grain. Then, we would just boil it off. . . . .For the first time ever, I can see why striving for 100% efficiency may have even bigger problems than I originally thought.



Pat,

You can actually reach 100% fairly easily, and even get a little better !! The 100% figure is derived from "standard" lab mashes. Its actually not that hard to extract more sugar than the figure the lab decides is the maximum.

A fly sparge that is really well set-up and conducted can do it (see Graham Sanders for self proclaimed proof) but more frequently thin bed mash filters achieve and exceed the 100% mark. They are just really well conducted sparges. Spend a bunch of money and time on it and you too can be better than perfect.

OR, like you said, you could just keep adding water. With fly sparging you will eventually get all the available sugar, with Batch and/or NoSparge/BIAB you cant becaue you must be leaving some sugar behind, but you can get pretty close. You'd need a LOT of volume in your kettle... but you could get there.

But why would you?? Trying to eek out that last few percentage points is just going to make you do things that will probably result in making worse beer. Tannins, overboiling etc. For what?? Bragging rights?

Honestly, I think the BIAB & its efficiency argument is effectively dead... it gets efficiencies comparable to both Batch and the majority of Fly spargers. Surely thats good enough.

The only real question left is "are the beers actually good?" I think they are. Within the limits of individual brewer's skills of course. A crappy brewer on $4000.00 automated 3 vessel is definately going to make worse beer than an inspired brewer with a bag and one big pot. The grey area that is inhabited purely by skill and talent is so large, that to say things like "not as good" or "better" is virtually pointless. Different; is just going to have to do!

Brewers are simply going to have to kick their brains into gear, evaluate the different methods for their different features, pick one and get on with making beer.

A little BIAB evangelising wont hurt though. Maybe one of these days we can stop being a cult and gain tax exempt status as a mainstream religion...................................

TB


----------



## PistolPatch

LOL Kingy and Thirsty! Thanks for another great post mate :super: I reckon your comments are spot on.

matti just gave a link to a very interesting article in another thread that is VERY relevant here. I think anyone who BIAB's should have a read. Here it is.

As you'll see, he is saying an over-filtered/over-extracted/high efficiency wort is not necessarily a good thing at all.

Anyway, I have just mashed in half an hour ago (5:30pm here ) and after reading that article, I'm going to do the 20 minute mash out that he suggests.

Thanks again Thirsty!!!!

Edit: I was pretty focussed on brewing last night and didn't notice my spelling mistakes. Have just changed 'lonk' to 'link' and 'NIAN' to 'BIAB.' Was completely sober too!


----------



## PistolPatch

A few posts back I said I'd post a pic of the trub and wort in a hydrometer jar. Here it is...





This sample was taken just before the end of the boil but after koppafloc was added. As you can see, there is a lot of trub but the wort is very clear. I think Michael Millspaw (the guy who wrote the article linked in the post above) would like this  When I do my next side by side, I'll see if I can do the same pics to get a good idea of the trub difference between batch and BIAB.

As mentioned, in last night's brew, I did the mash out for 20 minutes at 77 degrees. The gravity rose by 0.5 Brix (9.6 to 10.1 or 1.039 SG to 1.041 SG) but, being just one brew, I can't say whether the mash out makes this difference every time. Maybe someone else knows? Meanwhile, I'll keep taking some measurements and see what happens.

From memory I think a few of you guys are already doing a mashout? Ned? Thirsty?

BTW, I had a taste of the grain and it had bugger all sweetness to it.

Note for Thirsty: I forgot to say before but in your last post where you mention that fly-sparging will eventually get all the sugar out, doesn't it take all the sugar out of the top first and then start extractting undesirables? Also wouldn't you need to use a hell of a lot of water? In other words, do you reckon it would actually be feasible?

Spot,
Pat


----------



## Thirsty Boy

PistolPatch said:


> Note for Thirsty: I forgot to say before but in your last post where you mention that fly-sparging will eventually get all the sugar out, doesn't it take all the sugar out of the top first and then start extractting undesirables? Also wouldn't you need to use a hell of a lot of water? In other words, do you reckon it would actually be feasible?



Yep, exactly. Pretty much my point. You CAN get 100% efficiency, but you are probably going to make really shit beer.

Really well set up, really experienced with your system, really know what you are doing... you can probably get close and still make great beer. By the time you suck nasties out of the top layers, you have pulled the last of the sugar out of the bottom and you cut it off...... But I certainly couldn't do it, and I just dont think that the time and effort would be for any point other than sheer bloody mindedness.

Maybe in 20 years, when I am a brewing God, and there is nothing else I think I can do to improve my brewing... _then_ I will worry about getting efficiency any higher than 75% into the kettle.

TB


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

PistolPatch said:


> While I think of it....
> 
> Ned (who is my mate and won't mind me asking the following,) I know you have been away fishing but when you are back, can you tell me/us if the water you use to rinse the grain with are over and above the normal volumes?
> 
> From what I read on closer examination whilst summarising the summaries, they actually are extra litres.




Hi buddy , Sorry its been awhile..Just trying to catch up a bit now.. 

So yes I add an extra 3 lts to "rince/sparge" my bag. So if I fill my keggel to around 35lts then mash and remove the bag let drain for 2 or 3 minutes then pour the 3lts though the bag and grain let drain again for 2 or 3 minutes and then squeze the like buggery I find that I am back up to around the 35lts I started with . a 1hr boil will leave me with app 26.5lts and I can get 25lts into the fermenter. 

:beer:


----------



## MVZOOM

Hi All, 

Phrak and BenHobbs intro'd me to the BIAB concept on Wed night. I'm off now to get some of that fabric and stuff to make one up - how easy and time saving is it! 

We got 24L @ 1044 from 5kg of grain on Wed night, with an aborted 'traditional' mash - threw the grain into a bag and kept on going. Result is good, if a little bit lacking in clarity. 

I have searched through this thread to download the handbook - can't find it. Can someone pop it through?

Cheers - Mike


----------



## phonos

Hi MVZOOM
All the booklets and stuff are in the first 4 posts. Its not completely up to date, but reading the summary posts should clear up any changes to the original booklet.

Pat keeps saying he's working on completely updating the booklet, but I'm not sure if it will be out any time soon. But here's hoping!


----------



## MVZOOM

Phonos said:


> Hi MVZOOM
> All the booklets and stuff are in the first 4 posts. Its not completely up to date, but reading the summary posts should clear up any changes to the original booklet.
> 
> Pat keeps saying he's working on completely updating the booklet, but I'm not sure if it will be out any time soon. But here's hoping!



Yep - got it - thanks, don't know how I missed it!!

Cheers - Mike


----------



## 3GumsBrewing

Guys, two quick BIAB questions. 

I did a Belgian Pale Ale on Saturday, got a little distracted and left the mash at around 72C for about 70min. Will this high-ish temp stuff things up?

Also just out of interest, I think I am getting about 69% efficiency out of the boil, (started with 32L, ended up with 22L) is this crap? I keep reading about 75% everywhere, even promash has 75% as the efficiency. Is my boil rolling too much?

Cheers
DK


----------



## bayWeiss

DK said:


> snip...
> 
> Also just out of interest, I think I am getting about 69% efficiency out of the boil, (started with 32L, ended up with 22L) is this crap? I keep reading about 75% everywhere, even promash has 75% as the efficiency. Is my boil rolling too much?
> 
> Cheers
> DK



Efficiency is a number that relates to how well you are extracting sugars out of your grain. It is not the post-boil/pre-boil volume ratio.

Here are a couple of links to help out

http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-5.html
http://byo.com/mrwizard/1120.html

cheers!
:beer:


----------



## 3GumsBrewing

bayWeiss said:


> Efficiency is a number that relates to how well you are extracting sugars out of your grain. It is not the post-boil/pre-boil volume ratio.



Ahhhh, thanks for that. I had no idea!  

Beers
DK


----------



## Thirsty Boy

DK said:


> Ahhhh, thanks for that. I had no idea!
> 
> Beers
> DK



DK,

Now that you have sorted out what efficiency refers to... there is still the matter of your boil off rate. Which sounds a bit too high to me.

How long are you boiling for?? Most of the things I have read suggest a maximum boil off rate of 15% an hour. You are in that ball park if you are boiling for 2 hours, but actually still a little high, if its only an hour, you are boiling off at 30+% which is way too high. The excessive heat will cause flavour changes in your beer.

Better turn your heat down a bit. If you need to boil off more liquid, boil slower for longer.

Thirsty


----------



## 3GumsBrewing

Thirsty Boy said:


> Better turn your heat down a bit. If you need to boil off more liquid, boil slower for longer.
> Thirsty



Thanks Thirsty, again on Saturday I got distracted and left the boil rolling rapidly for ages, I had a feeling that it would cause excess evaporation, not to mention my Belgian Pale is looking decidedly non-pale!

I will definitely slow the boil down for the next one.

Cheers
DK


----------



## PistolPatch

Thirsty: Thanks for another top answer mate.

Bunyip: Thanks for catching us up Ned. What do you reckon about, instead of adding those extra 3 litres later, just adding them at the beginning of your mash? I'm just thinking that you'll get the same end result in litres and probably the same efficiency without the hassle. Maybe including the mash out bit (which I can't remember if you do or not) will also increase the efficiency??? Anyone got any thoughts on this?

MVZOOM: Mike, it's great to hear you are going tohave a crack at the AG. Phrak's a BIAB pioneer so you are in great hands. Is BenHobbs an undercover BIABer - lol? Look forward to hearing how your first one takes off.

Phonos: I have something for you in a sec 

DK: Efficiency issues can be really bewildering and we just had a huge thread to try and clarify some of the confusing bits. There were so many posts (including lots from Bayweiss and Thirsty) that I ended up editing my first post so poor buggers like you wouldn't have to read everything  So, check this post out.

As for your mash at 72 degrees, I suppose that if the whole mash was done at that temp, your beer is going to be a bit on the sweet side. Your thermometer might be a bit out either way which could work for or against you. It's an interesting question though as I have no idea what sort of beer you get if you mash outside of the 62-70 degree range. The link that Hashie gave me that I mentioned in one of my last few posts here talks about adding specialty grains at a mash out temperature of 77 degrees! God knows what happens when you do this but Hashie PM'ed me the other day saying he gave it a go so it'll be interesting to see what he reckons about this.

*The BIAB Re-Write* (The Bit for Phonos - LOL!)

So you guys want to know how the BIAB re-write is going? Well, you know when you clean out a shed or a cupboard? You pull everything out of the shed/cupboard, lay it out all over the place and then think, 'Why on earth did I ever start this and how friggin' long is it going to take me to put everything back?'

Well that's the stage at which the BIAB re-write is at. I have lots of paragraphs re-written, photos all over the place, several proposed new formats and one or two missing bits all spread over 8 Microsoft Publisher files!

To give you an idea, when I was at this stage of the first re-write, it took from 4am to midnight without too many breaks to put it all together with lots of encouraging emails from jimmysuperlative!

Anyway, thanks to the guys writing the Post Summaries, a lot of the hard work is out of the way. The first four posts are fairly under control. Just the BIABBooklet to go.

I just had a peek at some of those Publisher files. Ummmm. Don't hold your breath guys! I will go and have another proper look at the files now but for the final product, I think we really have to wait for a morning where I wake up in a highly manic state and feel like drinking a heap of coffee 

Might as well get it right...

Cheers,
Pat

P.S. The above question of whether to do a 'mash-out' is an example of one of the questions I'd like definitively answered before finishing the booklet and it's an answer I can't provide myself as I do not weigh my own grain so I can't take accurate efficiency measurements over anything but a large number of brews. I also know nothing about grain chemistry. Anyway, we might have to just let that one slide.


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

PistolPatch said:


> Bunyip: Thanks for catching us up Ned. What do you reckon about, instead of adding those extra 3 litres later, just adding them at the beginning of your mash? I'm just thinking that you'll get the same end result in litres and probably the same efficiency without the hassle. Maybe including the mash out bit (which I can't remember if you do or not) will also increase the efficiency??? Anyone got any thoughts on this?




Oh boy here we go.. Mmmm ,, Ok the 3lt (sparge/rince) water seems to run at around 4 to 7 birx and as the grain has already soakd up all its going too, I get it all back . So adding the 3lts of wort from this is gettng more out rather than those sugars being left in the grain /bag when you lift and squeze at the end..

I think that makes sense...

If by mash out you are refering too raiseing the temp to 70+ at the end of the mash , I have done this once or twice but dont have any conclusions on its benifit or otherwise at this stage. 

I must admit too not realy paying a lot of attention too brewing lately and just produceing/drinking lots of beer.. 

I have a seconde NASA burner here and will be makeing some changes to the brew rig in the comeing weeks. The single swinging burner worked well but diden't lend itself too small temp addjustments on the seconde pot when the first pot was at full boil very ezyly , so willl mount the new burner and have lots more control of both brews ... 

:beer:


----------



## Guest Lurker

Thirsty Boy said:


> DK,
> 
> You are in that ball park if you are boiling for 2 hours, but actually still a little high, if its only an hour, you are boiling off at 30+% which is way too high. The excessive heat will cause flavour changes in your beer.
> 
> Better turn your heat down a bit. If you need to boil off more liquid, boil slower for longer.
> 
> Thirsty



I wouldnt take that as gospel. Firstly, evaporation is independent of batch volume. So any reference that specifies a maximum evaporation as a percentage, and doesnt specify the batch size, is inherently flawed. If I brewed an 8l batch, I would get 100% evaporation, and that would be exactly the right amount.

Secondly, not boiling hard enough can easily have a detrimental effect on your beer, while I havent seen much evidence that boiling too hard can. How do you get your wort "excessively hot" when it is at boiling point?

Best to achieve a vigorous rolling boil, so that you know all the required physical and chemical processes are occurring in your wort, and not get hung up on what the evap percentage is.

Sorry for the off topic, if you seacrh on evaporation loss you will find plenty of threads discussing these concepts.


----------



## Aaron

I think Guest Lurker is spot on with those comments. I used to just go along with the % thing until he pointed it out in another thread. I have done some tests and it appears to hold up. That said these are only my tests done at home so you should probably find your own evidence. Seems to work though. I'm sure someone has done some real research on this, not the rough stuff most can achieve at home.


----------



## PistolPatch

FNQ Bunyip said:


> Oh boy here we go.. Mmmm



LOL Ned! I'm going to ring you on this rinsing business and to hear more about your burner trials.

GuestLurker and Aaron: Nothing is off-topic in the BIAB thread GL - lol! I agree with what you say. I go for the vigorous boil and from all I've read or heard, this is correct. The only situation I can see where there would be a danger of scorching the beer is perhaps if you had a thin-bottomed pot and a NASA burner where the flame is intensely concentrated. I imagine this could be a worry but I'm not sure. Thanks for the info guys.

Spot ya,
Pat


----------



## Hashie

PistolPatch said:


> ...
> 
> 
> As for your mash at 72 degrees, I suppose that if the whole mash was done at that temp, your beer is going to be a bit on the sweet side. Your thermometer might be a bit out either way which could work for or against you. It's an interesting question though as I have no idea what sort of beer you get if you mash outside of the 62-70 degree range. The link that Hashie gave me that I mentioned in one of my last few posts here talks about adding specialty grains at a mash out temperature of 77 degrees! God knows what happens when you do this but Hashie PM'ed me the other day saying he gave it a go so it'll be interesting to see what he reckons about this.
> 
> ...
> 
> P.S. The above question of whether to do a 'mash-out' is an example of one of the questions I'd like definitively answered before finishing the booklet and it's an answer I can't provide myself as I do not weigh my own grain so I can't take accurate efficiency measurements over anything but a large number of brews. I also know nothing about grain chemistry. Anyway, we might have to just let that one slide.



Well Pat, I did another batch yesterday with a mash out and the specialty grains in at mash out, with an interesting result.

First of all, I measure and crush my own grain.
Second, I am using a 'Corona' style grain mill. So I expect my efficiencies to be ~10% points lower than those that use a 'roller' style mill.

Yesterdays grain bill was;

JWM Pilsener 4.2 kg
JWM Munich 1.13 kg
Wheat malt 0.28 kg
Chocolate malt 0.12kg
Crystal malt 60l 0.12 kg
Carafa special 2 0.45 kg

Hops;

Nugget 25 grams 9.8% a/a 60 minutes
Cluster 23 grams 6.6% a/a 20 minutes

35 litre full volume mash BIAB @ 66 degrees 60 minutes Here I mashed the Pilsener, Munich and Wheat.
Mash out @ 76 degrees 20 minutes. Here I added the Chocolate, Crystal and Carafa.
60 minute boil.
Pre boil volume 32 litres
Post boil volume 26 litres

OG into fermenter 1056.

That gives me ~75% efficiency. Previously I've only been achieving ~65 - 70%.
So I'd say that doing a mash out definitely helps improve efficiency, while adding the spec. grains at mash out, will help with beer stability and clarity.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

Hashie said:


> ... while adding the spec. grains at mash out, will help with beer stability and clarity.



Where might I find more information on this? I think I am destined to be unstable, but perhaps this will help with my lack of clarity...


----------



## Hashie

> It is known that oxidation plays an important part in the formation of protein haze and that compounds known as melanoidins function as anti-oxidants and prevent the oxidation of protein. Oxidation also plays an important part in the production of colloidal haze, hence the name "oxidation haze", first coined by Helm, the German brewing scientist, in early part of this century.
> 
> Moreover, the formation of chill haze is also considerably increased by oxidation. Chill haze occurs in finished beer during cold storage, the chill haze will disappear if the beer is warmed (this is only viable if the beer is to be consumed immediately, if the beer is chilled again the haze will return). Later the beer will throw an irreversible haze at ordinary temperatures. Permanent haze is the end product of chill haze. If you get chill haze permanent haze will follow in time.
> 
> The oxidation of melanoidins will result in a lower quantity of stable colloids. Unstable colloids promote chill haze and permanent haze in beer. Conversely, the presence of stable colloids inhibits chill haze. The stability of beer colloids is the result of a very complex equilibrium, and the whole problem of colloidal haze formation is very complex. A better understanding of this problem will show it possible to take some steps to minimize its effects in finished beer.
> 
> Work done by Jean De Clerk, the famous Belgian brewing scientist has shown that darker beers are inherently more stable and clear. De Clerk attributed this to the presence of large amounts of melanoidins found in darker grains.
> 
> Melanoidins were first discovered by the French chemist Maillard, the reaction between amino acids and sugars which form these substances is know as the "Maillard reaction".
> 
> By definition, melanoidins are stable complexes formed at high temperatures (i.e. mash out temps.), they are colloidal in nature and are powerful reducing agents and give an acid reaction in aqueous solution. melanoidins are reddish-brown colored substances with a characteristic aroma (malt).
> 
> Color and aroma are not the only traits that melanoidins contribute to a beer. Their colloidal nature enables them to "protect" unstable colloids present in beer and to prevent haze formation. At the same time, melanoidins are powerful reducing agents and this too can prevent beer from throwing a haze. In addition the acid character of melanoidins helps improve the quality of beer.



You can read the full article here, Spills.

Edit; get the right quote!!


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Guest Lurker said:


> I wouldnt take that as gospel. Firstly, evaporation is independent of batch volume. So any reference that specifies a maximum evaporation as a percentage, and doesnt specify the batch size, is inherently flawed. If I brewed an 8l batch, I would get 100% evaporation, and that would be exactly the right amount.
> 
> Secondly, not boiling hard enough can easily have a detrimental effect on your beer, while I havent seen much evidence that boiling too hard can. How do you get your wort "excessively hot" when it is at boiling point?
> 
> Best to achieve a vigorous rolling boil, so that you know all the required physical and chemical processes are occurring in your wort, and not get hung up on what the evap percentage is.
> 
> Sorry for the off topic, if you seacrh on evaporation loss you will find plenty of threads discussing these concepts.



Last time I looked, I didn't seem to be Jesus, so of course you shouldn't take what I say as Gospel..... that said, I respond thusly.

And He spaketh these words of wisdom.....

How is evaporation rate expressed as a percentage flawed?? You are of course correct, evap rate _isn't_ dependent on batch size (in a given kettle, up to a point), it _is_ dependent on heat applied and kettle geometry. But whats that got to do with expressing it as a % figure?

If you have a 30litre pre boil, and you shoot for a 15% (per hour) boil off rate you end up with 25.5 litres, if its 500litres you would boil off 15% for a final volume of 425 and for 8 litres (BTW I have actually brewed several 8 litre batches) at 15% you would try to boil off 1.2 litres for a final vol of 6.8.

So you ending up with 100% evaporation in an 8 litre boil, could only happen if you express your boil off as a *litres per hour* figure. Now thats fundamentally flawed if you dont include a batch size. 8 L/hr might be OK for a 40 litre boil, but it would be a ludicrously weak boil for a 500litre boil and obviously far to strong for an 8 litre boil.

Thats the whole point of the percentage figure - _it doesn't actually specify a boil off amount_, *it specifies how vigorous the boil should be*, regardless of batch size. A 15% boil will be more vigorous than a 5%, every time, no matter what the volume of the boil.

I regularly boil in 3 different sized kettles with batch sizes from 6 - 35 litres. I shoot for 12-15% and thats about the same amount of "vigour" in each case.

Now, I get that different people have different experiences, but, if you are looking at the majority of the brewing literature, the accepted wisdom is that a boil needs to be at least 8% per hour to do its various jobs, with most breweries going for something between 10 and 15%.

Too weak a boil will hurt your beer & too vigorous a boil can also hurt your beer, I'm not saying it will every time, but it definately can. I could put in a bunch of quotes and references, but suffice it to say that they exist.

So... the whole point of advising someone to shoot for a maximum of 15% is that they will then be in the safe zone. 15% is easily a vigorous enough boil, but means you wont experience the possible ill effects of a too vigorous boil.

Sure, an individual might not experience negative effects from boiling too hard, great !!! , their system, technique, styles brewed and flavour preferences mean that they can get away with something that could well be detrimental. Good for them. Its not what I'd call a fantastic thing to be advising a new AG brewer to be doing though.

Perhaps something along the lines of ---

"Hey, your boil off rate seems really high. Its way up around 30+% per hour! Thats a fair bit higher than the rate that would usually be reccomended. You could be doing your beer a bit of harm. A more conventional rate would be to aim for a nice rolling boil, but to try not to evaporate more than 15% per hour.
Of course, there are people who do boil at more than 15% and they dont have any trouble, so you might be okay. But to play it safe, maybe you should try to get it down to under 15%. Have fun"

--- would be a nice compromise between our two points of view


Anyway, end of sermon and down from my mountain.

Thirsty

PS... for a really good and user friendly type discussion about this topic (naturally enough one that supports my point of view ) Try the Kosch and Altbier episode of the Jamil show at about the 1 hour and 14 minute mark. Linky link


----------



## T.D.

Thirsty Boy said:


> Last time I looked, I didn't seem to be Jesus, so of course you shouldn't take what I say as Gospel..... that said, I respond thusly.
> 
> And He spaketh these words of wisdom.....
> 
> How is evaporation rate expressed as a percentage flawed?? You are of course correct, evap rate _isn't_ dependent on batch size (in a given kettle, up to a point), it _is_ dependent on heat applied and kettle geometry. But whats that got to do with expressing it as a % figure?



If you use the same sized vessel for different sized boil volumes, you will get almost identical boil off rates in LITRES. For me I get 5L of boil-off, regardless of whether its a 17L batch or a 30L batch. 5L out of a 22L boil is 23%, but 5L out of a 35L boil is 14%. That's why using percentages is flawed. If using percentages, a change in the batch size will automatically re-calculate the boil-off volume (in litres) as a different figure, when in reality it doesn't change.


----------



## PistolPatch

Hashie first, Jesus second 

*Hashie:* You're a champion. Thanks for taking the time to post that. It's especially good when you weigh and crush your own grain then you can trust the figures a lot more. I've been getting mine from a local HBS here and I'm very unsure of their weighing ability :blink: Time I started cracking my own.

I'd love you to keep us posted on your efficiency on your next few brews and am really looking forward to hearing what you reckon about the effect of adding the spec grains in at mash out. Top stuff mate!

*Jesus*: That was another great read and the Jamil bit a great listen. I must say that I had never heard anything like that before. Interesting stuff eh? (For those that can't download 40MB, he was saying that a high evaporation rate can give you strong melanoidan flavours in altbiers etc and that you should aim at 12%. Don't ask me what melanoidan is!)

Until reading your post I had never considered the dilemmas of using small pots etc. I'd always viewed this subject from the normal batch size and more along the lines of surface area of your pot. The reason for me doing this was that maybe a year ago, before I knew anything about boils, I tried to do a slow boil to reduce the huge evaporation rate from my Robinox pot (diameter 45cm). I still seemed to be up around the 25-30% mark so I assumed that surface area was the important thing. I ended up reducing my boil from 90 to 60 minutes. BTW my boil is not what you would call 'spluttering.'

Obviously there is only so much you can slow your boil down to so I suppose kettle geometry (as in maybe leaving the lid on a little) might help here though if my memory serves me correctly, I don't think this made any difference either. Grrr. [Just saw TD's post and this shows what a limitation kettle shape makes I think.]

So for me, I think reducing the evaporation rate is quite a hard thing to achieve. I'll have access to a second set of BIAB equip soon so will have to have another look at this.

Jamil's thing about just making sure that the wort is circulating in the boil was very interesting though. Mind you, like everything in craft-brewing, you'll read the opposite somewhere else!!!

Anyway Jesus, a very educational post as always.

Lots of love,
Thomas 

P.S. I imagine that getting the evaporation rate exactly right is something for new AG'ers not to obsessively worry about. As Jamil said he boiled like buggery for years. In reality it's probably more of an advanced topic for those wishing to brew a beer to perfection. Consistency of the boil should probably be the first goal. Very interesting stuff though and I'm enjoying the education :super:


----------



## apd

Thirsty Boy said:


> If you have a 30litre pre boil, and you shoot for a 15% (per hour) boil off rate you end up with 25.5 litres, if its 500litres you would boil off 15% for a final volume of 425 and for 8 litres (BTW I have actually brewed several 8 litre batches) at 15% you would try to boil off 1.2 litres for a final vol of 6.8.
> 
> ...
> 
> Thats the whole point of the percentage figure - _it doesn't actually specify a boil off amount_, *it specifies how vigorous the boil should be*, regardless of batch size. A 15% boil will be more vigorous than a 5%, every time, no matter what the volume of the boil.



Thirsty,

I was in TD's and Guest Lurker's camp before. I always thought that the evaporation was related to surface area so whether or not you had 30L or 10L in the kettle, if you boiled it for 60 minutes, you'd lose the same volume from both. But you've got me thinking and I think I'm missing part of your argument.

If I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that you boil to a specific amount, ie. you start with X litres in the kettle and know that you need Y litres at the end of the boil and therefore you boil until you have Y left, meaning your boil length is variable depending on your boil volume. Is that correct?

The problem I have is that I assume that the time it takes 8L to boil down to 6.8L is a lot less than the time it takes 30L to boil down to 25.5L (as per your figures above). With that in mind, how do you fit in hop additions? For example, if it only takes 30 minutes for 8L to boil down to 6.8L, how do you get a 60 minute hop addition? I've just picked 30 minutes out of thin air. I've never actually boiled 8L to see how long it takes to reduce in volume. I know I'm missing something so hopefully you can fill in the missing part of the puzzle.

Thanks,

Andrew


----------



## 3GumsBrewing

Thirsty Boy said:


> Anyway, end of sermon and down from my mountain.
> 
> Thirsty
> 
> PS... for a really good and user friendly type discussion about this topic (naturally enough one that supports my point of view ) Try the Kosch and Altbier episode of the Jamil show at about the 1 hour and 14 minute mark. Linky link



Thanks again Thirsty and PP,

I did another Belgian Pale yesterday - same ingredients, same mash and boil times, except I made sure the boil was not as vigorous/rapid, but still rolling. (love my 4 ring burner).
Started with 32L, ended after 60min with 26L. Much better I think.

Also re-listened to that podcast, good stuff. Jamil is great isnt he! Almost tempted to *not* use secondarys like he does (just can't bring myself to do it though!)

Cheers
DK


----------



## T.D.

apd said:


> If I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that you boil to a specific amount, ie. you start with X litres in the kettle and know that you need Y litres at the end of the boil and therefore you boil until you have Y left, meaning your boil length is variable depending on your boil volume. Is that correct?



Regardless of my boil size (within reason) a 60min boil gives me a boil-off loss of 5L. The boil length is held constant.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

The Thirsty Messiah has three kettles. If he boils the same volume in each of them, he will boil off different volumes because the kettles are different. He will be aiming for the same boil-off as expressed as a percentage, because that is how he measures the anger of his boil.

I have just one kettle. If I boil three different volumes in it, I will get the same volume boiled off, which when expressed as a percentage of the original volume will be different.

He's not the Thirsty Messiah - He's just a very naughty brewer...


----------



## Thirsty Boy

You can also... and I know this might be a revelation, turn your heat up and down.

Saying that you boil off X litres per hour regardless of batch size is fine, of course it works and is consistent. When you express it as a %, it doesn't give you a changed and therefore flawed figure, it gives you a changed figure and you are supposed to actually change[u/] your pot, set-up, flame etc to alter the sitation so that you boil off the new volume, thats the whole damn point.

apd - nearly what I meant, but not quite. You should aim for a nice rolling boil, doesn't have to be fizzing and jumping around, just rolling over at a reasonable pace. Once you have done a few brews, work out roughly what your rate of boil off is, if its more than about 15% I suggest you want to turn the flame down a bit, or if that would reduce the vigour of your boil too much, then maybe partially cover the opening of your pot, or in an extreme case, you might be better served with a smaller pot

Now you probably brew reasonably consistent batch sizes, so you can fairly easily convert a % figure to a L/hr figure and thats easier to work with. And if you are going from a 25 to a 30 litre boil, bugger it, you will be near enough, no need to recalculate. Just use the litres per hour figure. But if you want to brew a 10 litre batch or a 40 litre batch, well then you need to try and re-calculate for the new volume.

The reason is that even though in the same pot,the l/hr figure will remain constant, the actual vigour of the boil will change with increasing/decreasing volume. and you want it to be where you planned it to be, not just where it ended up.

You aren't boiling to a specific volume per say - you are boiling at a specific level of vigour/anger/intensity for a specific time. You then work out the volumes you need from that.

Like I said, if you are mainly brewing the same batch size, it wont really matter to you, just go with a litres/hour figure. I just recommend that the litres/hour figure turns out to be less than or equal to 15% (per hour) of your starting boil volume. If you are boiling off heaps faster, you just turn down the heat a bit.

But what the hell, other people think it doesn't matter. Maybe they are right.

You're all individuals

Thirsty


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

My goal is to have a totally standardised brew process, meaning that I know that when I use this much water, this much grain and boil for this long (usually 90mins), I will get a magic number of litres (24) at the end. 

I've given up trying to measure the volume of water that goes in - I just measure by depth in my imperfectly-cylindrical pot. I haven't worked out my evaporation rate - I just know that as long as I make the appropriate adjustment for the amount of grain I'm using and turn both elements on for the duration, I end up with a plastic jerry full (and not much more). That's all I need, I think...

This thread has made me wonder again if I might be scorching my wort, so I might just have to use this as an excuse to brew again soon...

I think that if it works as a repeatable, mechanical process, the other stuff might not matter that much, but then, I am not an individual.


----------



## apd

Thanks Thirsty. Good info.

Andrew


----------



## PistolPatch

Thirsty, it's Thomas again 

One of the interesting things in that podcast was that Jamil said he could taste the difference on a brew that was done at 12% versus 15% evaporation rate. I don't think too many of us would be able to taste that sort of difference but it would be nice to get down from the 25-30% I get in my pot! You've inpsired me to have a crack on the weekend.

One of the best things about BIAB I think is the ability to do side by side brews for still minimal cost. I'm about to get a second set of equipment which means another kettle and burner. Times this by two and it is still less in cost than most traditional set-ups but it gives you...

*The Ability to Side by Side Brew on Your Own*

This ability is a _massive advantage. How many brewers do you know that have the ability to do a side by side brew? Not only can you brew twice the amount of either the same or a different beer but you can change brewing factors and see for yourself if you notice a difference.

For example, you could try doing the same brew with 2 highly different evaporation rates to see if it is significant for that particular beer.

The possibilities here are endless and the learning curve truly brilliant as unless you brew a beer on the same day, you can never really taste them side by side as one will be a day or week older etc.

I can't wait to start doing this.

Anyway, I scored 30m of copper today for free so I'm going to go and braze me up a new immersion chiller - cool!

Cheers,
Pat

Pat's Tip for The Day: If you want to make an immersion chiller like mine (slightly conical,) to shape it, buy a plastic garden pot from Bunnings and then return it the next day _


----------



## bayWeiss

PP,

I have never done BIAB, can you please explain exactly how BIAB gives you an advantage in doing a side-by-side brew as opposed to batch or fly sparge? I read your post a couple of times, but I am still missing it.

I have split a batch before, with traditional sparge techniques, and did not think that it could get easier!

thanks!

:beer:


----------



## PistolPatch

Mornin' Bayweiss,

The advantage of side by side brewing with BIAB is mainly cost and practicality (time and space).

Let's say that you wanted to brew the same beer at different evaporation rates to see the difference. For real side by side brewing, I think that simultaneous brews are going to give you the most accurate results. (For example, even your tap water can change in composition from one day to the next - even one hour.)

To do this test with traditional equipment, you'll need 2 HLTs, 2 Mash Tuns, Two Kettles and 4 Burners. You'll also need room to put all this and high concentration levels!!!

With BIAB, you need two kettles, 2 bags and 2 burners. (I haven't mentioned chillers in either of the above but you get the picture.)

The second option is of course far cheaper and doesn't require as much space or concentration. If you had all the BIAB equipment to side by side, you could also try batch-sparging if you had an esky lying around - just put your bag in the esky. So there are a lot of advantages here.

(And even, if you are not side by side testing, let's not forget the huge advantage of being able to do two totally different brews in pretty much the same amount of time.)

I think, because we are human, we often change one thing in a brew and assume that after just that one brew that the change worked or didn't work. The scientist in us though knows that it is very hard to brew _exactly the same beer next week as you do this week. Unless you were highly educated in tasting and taking notes, it is almost impossible to taste Beer 1 today and then taste Beer 2 a week later and compare them. Your taste buds might be working totally differently from one day to the next.

Side by side brewing gives you far more accurate information (assuming you do it correctly) as you can brew the beer at the same time and taste it at whatever age at the same time.

I'm not totally sure what you mean when you say you have split a batch before but I assume that you did the split after the boil? This means you can't try variations on things before the boil such as mash temps, evaporation rates or hop additons. You are limited to just testing things like different yeasts or fermentation temps.

Even if you split it straight after the mash and did two separate boils, you are still unable to test mash variations and unless you have two kettles and do the boil simultaneously, the second wort is going to be sitting around for a few hours waiting to get boiled which leaves further room for variance.

I hope that clears that up mate. Certainly kept me from going and doing some work.


Pat_


----------



## lucas

PistolPatch said:


> Let's say that you wanted to brew the same beer at different evaporation rates to see the difference. For real side by side brewing, I think that simultaneous brews are going to give you the most accurate results. (For example, even your tap water can change in composition from one day to the next - even one hour.)
> 
> To do this test with traditional equipment, you'll need 2 HLTs, 2 Mash Tuns, Two Kettles and 4 Burners. You'll also need room to put all this and high concentration levels!!!


actually PP, if you wanted to see the difference in evaporation rate thats not at all what you'd want to do, you'd be adding too many variables. how are you going to keep the HLTs at the exactly the same temp? how are you going to ensure identical mashes?

those arent problems that BIAB is magically going to solve. if you want to compare evaporation, then you need to mash a big batch of beer in a single tun, run it off into one vessel and mix it well, then split it for the boil, perhaps using your hlt as your second boiler. the earlier in the process you want to compare things, the more uncontrolled variables you introduce and the less likely it is you're going to be able to try perceived changes to any one thing

trying to do two batch from start to finish side by side is not going to give you any sense of the difference that your "one" change makes; in fact i'd bet that if you tried to do two complete batches side by side without ANY change you'd still end up with two slightly different beers

there's nothing wrong with BIAB as a process, but the evangelism is starting to get a little stale


----------



## Kingy

sorry to interupt but would a 50 litre or an 80 litre pot be better for BIAB

is an 80 litre big enough to do double batches and is an 80 litre to big and awkward to do a single batch?
im looking at the robinox brand.
and cant decide.

what do other BIAB'ers use and are they happy with what they use and what size would they change to if they were to change.

cheers kingy

im steering towards the 80litre but i dont know why........


----------



## Maxt

I have an 80L kettle, a few points..

Unless you have a mechanical system and a super strong bag, double batches are very iffy (it's hard enough to pull 6kg of wet grain out).

If you ever want to use immersion elements in the kettle in the future, 80L does not leave much depth unless you have a volume over 40L. You need to keep a certain amount of liquid over the element, and 30L barely covers it..but not an issue if you BIAB and use gas..but just a consideration for the future.


----------



## PistolPatch

Well bugger me on the evangelism comment!



lucas said:


> actually PP, if you wanted to see the difference in evaporation rate thats not at all what you'd want to do, you'd be adding too many variables. how are you going to keep the HLTs at the exactly the same temp? how are you going to ensure identical mashes?



I didn't say that's all you'd have to do.



lucas said:


> those arent problems that BIAB is magically going to solve. if you want to compare evaporation, then you need to mash a big batch of beer in a single tun, run it off into one vessel and mix it well, then split it for the boil, perhaps using your hlt as your second boiler. the earlier in the process you want to compare things, the more uncontrolled variables you introduce and the less likely it is you're going to be able to try perceived changes to any one thing



BIAB solves a lot of these problems - pure and simple. You haven't read my post. It depends on what you are testing as to what lengths you have to go to. It's not hard to brew the same beer and have one with a mild boil and one with a vigorous boil - not hard at all.



lucas said:


> trying to do two batch from start to finish side by side is not going to give you any sense of the difference that your "one" change makes; in fact i'd bet that if you tried to do two complete batches side by side without ANY change you'd still end up with two slightly different beers



Wrong again. Brad_g and I managed to produce two identical beers - one BIAB and one batched. As I've said before, only one person could pick any difference and it was miniscule. I think that most people into this thread are not really interested in identifying miniscule changes.



lucas said:


> there's nothing wrong with BIAB as a process, but the evangelism is starting to get a little stale



Where's the evangelism? Most of BIAB is restricted to this thread. I can't believe that you have a problem with myself and others putting so much time and effort into encouraging people to move into and learn about AG in a logical and easy manner. Most of the time I enjoy doing this but on days when I see inaccurate, ill-considered and berating posts, my enjoyment evaporates and then I start writing ill-considered posts :blink: 

It's not your usual form Lucas - you usually post well. When I see at least one good reason why BIAB is not the most sensible and logical way for the overwhelming majority to begin making all-grain beer then I'll STFU. When I can see consistently better beers being brewed with another method then I'll start encouraging people to start with BIAB and move onto whatever that method may be. For the moment, there is not one reason to do either of the above.

That last comment of yours has no value to anyone apart from those who wish to illogically justify their method of brewing.

And finally, remember that I didn't just start this guide to BIAB, I also did the Guide to Mashing and Batch-Sparging. I'm interested in all ways of brewing not just BIAB. I write about BIAB more because of reasons that should be totally obvious.

It would be nice if more people directed those considering starting AG to this thread. I often see people just waiting until they have all the gear needed for traditional brewing whereas they could be under way immediately. Most of these people wouldn't even know what BIAB is.

Brewing is a fascinating world and most brewers love exploring things or seeing others take up the hobby. This is why BIAB has been helped by so many of the really experienced brewers.

Good on em! :beerbang:

Anyway I'm doing 3 brews this weekend so I'm going. I better not have a drink while doing them otherwise this keyboard will end up getting a hammering


----------



## PistolPatch

Kingy said:


> sorry to interupt but would a 50 litre or an 80 litre pot be better for BIAB
> 
> is an 80 litre big enough to do double batches and is an 80 litre to big and awkward to do a single batch?
> im looking at the robinox brand.
> and cant decide.
> 
> what do other BIAB'ers use and are they happy with what they use and what size would they change to if they were to change.
> 
> cheers kingy
> 
> im steering towards the 80litre but i dont know why........



Howdy Kingy!

I'd go the larger pot mate. There's no worries about boil-overs then on your normal batch-size. You can also use the larger pot as a 'fermenting fridge'. Just chuck your fermenter in it and wrap a thick camping mat around it. (Cut slots for the handles and it holds itself on nicely).

I have the 70lt and am thinking about getting another the same size. It's big enough to do a double-batch* but you'd have to watch it for boil-overs. As Maxt said, you'd want bloody good stitching etc to do double-batches. Alternatively, you could get a cheap, thin pot that slides into the larger pot, drill some holes in the bottom and line this with the bag material. You'd still want a pulley system though to lift it out. 

*The only reason I'll be doing double-batches is because my brother-in-law and nephew want to get into the brewing. I'm thinking we can brew together and split the batches. When you're starting out, you are probably better off doing normal batch-sizes and trying a few different styles until you find your favourites. Maybe then is the time to look at the doubles. As mentioned though, the 80 litre will do 'em.

Looking forward to having a beer with you next time I'm up the mountains.

Spot ya
Pat


----------



## Kingy

Thx for the help pp and maxt

yea 80 litre is definately the go and just ordered,im one more step closer to BIAB

Double batches arnt something im thinking of doing soon, was thinking long term on other uses for the 80 litre. Dont want to buy a 50 then realise an 80 litre wouldve been better.or vice versa.

Hopefully within the next month i can get my shed stinking of boiled grain for some aromatherapy


----------



## MVZOOM

I want to do double batches, of 20L each - I'm thinking of using two grain bags?

Cheers - Mike


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

PistolPatch said:


> I have the 70lt and am thinking about getting another the same size. It's big enough to do a double-batch* but you'd have to watch it for boil-overs. As Maxt said, you'd want bloody good stitching etc to do double-batches. Alternatively, you could get a cheap, thin pot that slides into the larger pot, drill some holes in the bottom and line this with the bag material. You'd still want a pulley system though to lift it out.



... or a stronger outer bag? Imagine you put your curtain material bag inside something like a nicely-washed grain bag - the sort your grain comes in. That would provide the necessary strength and would not cost too much while the curtain material bag provides the 'filtration' that BIABers have come to know and love.


----------



## Kingy

im worried ive ordered the wrong pot. I got an aluminium one :unsure: 

just checked and 80 litre aluminium is $125, 70 litre stainless steel are $245 or 50 litre stainless is $180 now im confused again. Time for another beer

grrrrrr...


----------



## jimmysuperlative

Kingy, there are plenty of brewers using aluminium pots ...and given the cost comparison it's understandable.
I'm using a 55L alumin stockpot on top of a Rambo high pressure burner for my BIAB's. At first I was worried about scorching the bag, but I've done a heap of brews with the same bag no problems.

Having said that, if I had the means I would probably go stainless  

Do a search ...I'm pretty sure there's a pro/cons thread?


----------



## PistolPatch

Mike: I'm not entirely sure what you mean but if you mean putting two bags in the one pot at the same time, this could be trouble. I think it's most important to have total free flow around the grain when you agitate. I can see two bags in at once leading to tangles, twists, low efficiency etc. But it looks like Spills has an idea...

Spills: Not a bad idea mate. Not sure what you mean by the grain bag though - hessian? I reckon you'd need a polyester of some sort so it wouldn't rot, give off-flavours etc. Dunno! Those thin-based aluminium pots are bloody cheap though so I reckon I'm going for that instead even for my normal BIABs. More notes on ths below.

Kingy: As Jimmy says below, nothing wrong with aluminium. You need to 'season' it first which is easy though I can't remember how (a search on 'season aluminum' should get you there.) There are also some cleaners to avoid as they remove the seasoning - I think TSP is one of these to avoid on ally. I reckon go with your gut as to whether to go SS or ally. If you want to change to SS, just give the guys (I assume it was Allquip?) a ring on Monday and they'll change your order so no need to panic.

*Double Batching:* Been thinking more on this today and it might be an idea for beginners to not worry about double-batching. Just buy your first pot, preferably 70 or 80 litres and brew away. You will bugger up a batch or two so much better buggering up 23 litres than 46! Then...

Those who have BIABed for a while and really want to double-batch, maybe you are better off getting another kettle, burner and bag. This way, when you double-batch, then you could either do two of the same brews in the different kettles or maybe batch-sparge them using one kettle as an HLT along with an esky and a bag. This way, when you are not double-batching you can still do two different brews at the same time or some side by side stuff.

Scuse all my writing on this side by side stuff but I'm finding it pretty exciting!

Spot!


----------



## Kingy

ok cool thx guys aluminium it is. also if it were dangerous to use why do they sell them they must be safe. 

What do people clean there aluminium with?

it also ok to season it with oil?as this is what they say to do....

is this going to affect my brews?


----------



## PistolPatch

Mornin' Kingy!

Nup, don't use oil to season the ally (great for cast iron frying pans though ) Finally found the instructions and they are very simple. Here's what chiller wrote...



> Season the pot either by filling it with water and boiling for 10 minutes or [very carefully - and following all safety procedures] wipe the interior of the pot out with neat phosphoric acid and leave it for 5 minutes. Wash it out then with water and air dry.
> 
> Both methods will passivate the aluminium and the surface will go that wonderful dull grey that makes every brewer with aluminium happy.
> 
> The metal will oxidise within about 10 minutes of exposure to air and heat.



Spot ya,
Pat


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

PistolPatch said:


> Spills: Not a bad idea mate. Not sure what you mean by the grain bag though - hessian? I reckon you'd need a polyester of some sort so it wouldn't rot, give off-flavours etc. Dunno! Those thin-based aluminium pots are bloody cheap though so I reckon I'm going for that instead even for my normal BIABs. More notes on ths below.



I haven't seen a hessian grain bag since my father was selling bags of wheat for cattle feed in the 1970's!

I'm thinking the woven plastic stuff. I think I have seen exactly one malted grain bag and it was just such a thing. I reckon a good wash and you're away. (Were it not for my fear of being misinterpreted, I would suggest a superphosphate or dynamic lifter bag...)

The second pot idea seems like it would work just fine, except that the bag is kinda relegated to being a filter pad and you end up with a bloddy big dripolator... 

And the cost...

And the washing up... 

Would you take your big home-made colander into the shower with you, PistolPatch?


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

Kingy said:


> ok cool thx guys aluminium it is. also if it were dangerous to use why do they sell them they must be safe.
> 
> What do people clean there aluminium with?
> 
> it also ok to season it with oil?as this is what they say to do....
> 
> is this going to affect my brews?



My brew pot only ever gets used for brewing. I rinse with water, scrub with a plastic scrubbing brush and rinse again. I think I once washed it with a bit of percarbonate.

I seasoned mine with a batch of beer! My pot is probably 2.5mm thick, so I guess it might last me a little while longer even if I didn't get the passivation thing correct...


----------



## kook

PistolPatch said:


> Mornin' Bayweiss,
> 
> The advantage of side by side brewing with BIAB is mainly cost and practicality (time and space).
> 
> Let's say that you wanted to brew the same beer at different evaporation rates to see the difference. For real side by side brewing, I think that simultaneous brews are going to give you the most accurate results. (For example, even your tap water can change in composition from one day to the next - even one hour.)
> 
> To do this test with traditional equipment, you'll need 2 HLTs, 2 Mash Tuns, Two Kettles and 4 Burners. You'll also need room to put all this and high concentration levels!!!



I don't understand. If you're doing a side-by-side brew with BIAB and traditional equipment, how are you keeping the brews the same? Your liquor/grist ratio is going to be drastically different for a start, then there is sparging / mash out techniques as well as your method of maintaining mash temperature.

To do two "identical" batches to test the variance with different evap rates, why do you need double the equipment? Why not just start the mash on the second brew during the boil on the first? If you time everything right it should be quite straightforward. You're more likely to get consistant results than using two drastically different mash methods.


----------



## kook

PistolPatch said:


> BIAB is actually not, 'no-sparge' brewing as traditionally known. 'No-sparge' uses about 2/3 of the total brewing volume of water required in the mash and then the remaining 1/3 that would be normally used for sparging is just added straight to the kettle. This is why the efficiency is low and therefore needs about 25% more grain to compensate but the maltiness is higher. Trough Lolly wrote several brilliant posts on this in the 'All In One Brewery' thread. His first one is
> 
> For this reason, we've been describing BIAB as a 'full-volume' method. BIAB uses the same grain bill as in batching or fly and the same water but ALL the water goes into the mash. So, the efficiency is great but, as with batch-sparging and fly-sparging, you won't get that extra maltiness that comes with 'no-sparge' brewing.



How does that work as the gravity of the batch increases though? As the liquor/grist ratio gets lower and comes much closer to the range used on traditional equipment, does it not simply become a no-sparge batch?


----------



## bayWeiss

kook said:


> I don't understand. If you're doing a side-by-side brew with BIAB and traditional equipment, how are you keeping the brews the same? Your liquor/grist ratio is going to be drastically different for a start, then there is sparging / mash out techniques as well as your method of maintaining mash temperature.
> 
> To do two "identical" batches to test the variance with different evap rates, why do you need double the equipment? Why not just start the mash on the second brew during the boil on the first? If you time everything right it should be quite straightforward. You're more likely to get consistant results than using two drastically different mash methods.



PP was talking about two BIAB batches that were side by side. But, the only savings i really see in doing this is time. You are right, and one could save money on the equipment and just run two batches consecutively (sp?) and get the same result. Absolute time of day will be different, but time boiling/mashing can be done so as to make the batch identical to the first (or not).


----------



## bayWeiss

kook said:


> How does that work as the gravity of the batch increases though? As the liquor/grist ratio gets lower and comes much closer to the range used on traditional equipment, does it not simply become a no-sparge batch?



Well, I think it is technically "no sparge", since no sparging is going on, really. Basically BIAB is a "no-sparge" with a large liquor->grist ratio, that happens to match the full volume when drained. The drain is a raising of the grains instead of a dropping/pumping of the water out of the tun. 

:beer:


----------



## PistolPatch

*Spills* So that's what you were thinking! Mate, I wouldn't use one of those as I doubt they would have any sort of hat tolerance for a start. They are more a plastic so all sorts of things could go wrong. 

The big dripolator is what I'm after I think. A little more elegant plus less exposure to oxygen as you lift the bag out. Mmmm. I have the germ of an idea but will post it later as Kook has so many questions!

*Kook* I'm going to PM you my phone number as I may not be able to write answers well enough in a short space - not that I usually let this deter me  Your brewing knowledge is very advanced and the beers you are used to tasting etc are also very advanced so I might need to actually chat with you to answer them in full and correctly - if I can! Hopefully you saw our other answers to your other questions here

Some of the things I can answer are...

Yep Bayweiss is right where he says I was talking about doing two BIAB brews side by side. But it shouldn't be forgotten that the side by side brew that Brad-G and I did on different equipment (one batched and one BIABed) produced beers identical to some very advanced brewers. Only one got the triangular test right.

_The point I'm trying to make here is that everyone says you cannot produce identical beers on two different bits of equipment. I think this is a bit of mis-information stemming from the 'Adelaide test.' In that test, for a start, people were not using the same thermometers. How on earth they would expect to produce the same beer without calibrating their thermometers has me buggered for a start!

Sure, in some testing, different systems will play a part but for a lot of testing, different systems will not. (Having identical thermometers for example goes a long way to solving a lot of differences.) I'm actually going to go out on a limb here and criticise a brewing god - Jamil. He says in the audio Thirsty linked above that he liked one beer that was brewed with 12% evaporation rate but couldn't stand the one brewed at 15%.

I have real problems with accepting that gospel. If you are mucking around at that fine a level then I think you would have to brew the beer at identical times on identical equipment, repeat the brew several times and do several tastings. I heard no mention that this was done._

I think that when I talk about side by side brewing, I'm really talking about the advantages of being able to do two brews on the same day (as you suggested.) It is even better and easier still, especially as a beginner, to do it with another brewer at the same time.

Your other question re liquor to grist ratios is related to your question on big beers in the other thread. I think that's one I'd like to talk on the phone about as there are a few ways you could approach this and I know bugger all about big beers.

Spot ya Kook and I loved your freezer and font mate. Top job!
Pat


----------



## Kingy

can anyone point in the right direction as to where to look for a wok stand to put in my boiler and around 490mm wide


----------



## blackbock

Kingy do you mean the cake stand? Ask poppa joe! :lol: 

If you can't find one that fits beforehand, don't worry. It's not really necessary.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

If you heat the water to a couple of degrees above your strike temp then put the bag in, the chance of scorching your bag is increasingly small.


----------



## Kingy

ok thats good to hear so if i got a cake stand that was smaller than my pot it would still be an advantage.

sorry for all these questions as of late but i want to be fully ready when i do my first biab


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## Thirsty Boy

Kingy said:


> can anyone point in the right direction as to where to look for a wok stand to put in my boiler and around 490mm wide




I know a lot of the other guys dont think its necessary. But I'm still a bit paranoid abut melting my bag. 

I dont know how many other guys are doing it, but I like to heat my mash up to a mash out temp of 78 just before I pull out the bag, so I have the burner on when the bag is in and full, so I like the reassurance that the cake stand gives me, even if I could probably get away without it.

Mind you, I am doing small batches on the stove, a full size set-up will probably have a different dynamic.

If you decide you want the insurance of the wok stand. Asian restaraunt supply stores. They carry lots of spares and have them in sections that you can just join together to get the size pretty right. Cheap too.

I wouldn't bother so much with a cake stand thats much smaller than the diameter of the pot, your bag would them still be able to touch the inner surface of the pot where flame was in direct contact on the outside. Kind of defeats the purpose.

Thirsty


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## Kingy

is this what u mean
http://cgi.ebay.com/Cake-Stands-Stainless-...1QQcmdZViewItem

or is this what yaz mean. to me this looks like the ultimate  

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Precise-Heat-65qt-...VQQcmdZViewItem


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## Thirsty Boy

Second one is the sort of thing.

Have a look here Link. The second photo is a good shot of the sort of thing you can make out of wok warming rack bits. I dont beleive that most of them are stainless though.. Mines not, but it was cheap, so I will just chuck it if it starts to corrode.

Get a cheapie, that way if you decide like some othe BAIB ers that you dont think you need teh rack, you can pitch it at minimal cost. If you like it, then you can upgrade to stainless later on,

Actually, have a look at the whole post. It wont hurt. Provide you with another exaple of how people are doing the BIAB thing

Sorry to post a link to another board, but I couln't be arsed digging out the photo to post again.


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

Ok Kingy , gloves off,, stop stuffing around and just do it..

It was I that burnt the first bag, and Pat sugested the cake rack. I still don't use one and never have. Just make sure that the water is at around 67 for a 65 mash trun the flame off add the bag , add the grain and stir ,wait and stir , wait and stir, ect ect , if your temp drops after 30 mins or so lift the bag a little so its not sitting on the bottom , relight the burner (takes 2 mins with nasa) flame off and stir ect ect. at the end of your mash raise the bag again heat to 74 (app 4 to 5 mins W/nasa) lower bag stir ,jiggle sir raise and drain the bag give it a good squezz out and trun the burner on till boilling, back it off to a rolling boil , add your hop sock and hops and all is under way to the best beer you have ever brewed.. 

Good luck..



Now on the subject of the boil .. Pat and I have had a few disscusions of late and I know he has been in contact with spills and thirsty about this .
I think that I alnog with good knows how many others may well of been boilng the crap out of our brews in the past. I did 2 brews yesterday with a gentle rolling boil instead of my past violent rolling bubbleing cooking of the past and the wort from theas brews was a more malty taste than the last brew with the same recipe . I think it has allowed the flavors to improve . I dont have % points of how much evaperation I had but it was 1/3 less that past brews .. 
I'm looking forward to tasteing these 2 ..

Mash Out.. another discussion topic with Pat & Thirsty. 

I have now done this with the last 4 brews.
and have found that I get about .8 to 1.2 brix improvement on the wort after the mash out step. 
So I think that it is definately a step in the whole process that should be included in the guide.. If its not in the new one allready.. 
And of corse I will continue to do it..

Cheers guys , go go go Kingy ..

Bunyip


----------



## Hashie

Just to add my 2 cents worth.
I put my bag in with the cold water, so it is in the whole time the flame is on.
Prior to the grain going in, the bag floats, so no chance of scorching. I don't use a cake stand or any other device on the bottom.

I have been doing a 20 minute mash out for the last 3 brews. The bag stays in un-changed while the flame is on (4 ring burner) although I do agitate the grain so it is not sitting in a big lump on the bottom. I have found doing a mash out gives me a gain of ~5% in extract efficiency.
Also, I have been adding the specialty grains at mash out, not for the entire mash. This has been giving me beer with more complex flavours and aromas.


----------



## InCider

I took my copy of the BIAB Booklet 360meters up Mt Tibrogargan in the Glasshouse Mountains this morning.


----------



## PistolPatch

InCider: What a top pic! Mate it's going to be heaps of fun having you involved in this thread. I think we are in for a few treats guys 

Kingy: I don't use the cake stand either though I wouldn't mind one (see *below). I think a small one would be no good so don't bother with that. One thing I do (without the cakes tand) is agitate the mash any time I appply heat not so much to avoid burning the bag but to avoid the bottom part of the mash being struck by too higher mash temps. This could be me just being paranoid though. ANyway Kingy, Bunyip wants you on that register straight away so forget the stand - lol!

Mash Outs: After Hashie's link a few pages ago, I've been doing mash outs at 77 degrees too. A typical set of Brix readings can be found in this post (The figures pertaining to the actual mash out are about 5 posts after that one.) This link also contains a question about iodine tests and whether the mash is complete or not that Trough Lolly has answered there. Anyway, looks like a mash out should be included in the BIAB booklet. *This is the bit for which I'd like a cake stand as ten minutes or whatever of agitating until you reach mash out temp can be a little boring!

Boils: As Ned said above, I've also been mucking around with the boils. I've been having one small flavour coming through in Batz's Altbier that people have found hard to name. It's like a really slight medicinal taste but it's not an infection. One person said it could be oxidisation and Thirsty mentioned this as a possible problem of a way too vigorous boil. The rest of the beer is wonderful so that flavour is really bugging me. I'm about to keg an alt done on a really slow boil so I'll see if that has fixed it. Hope so. Mind you, I'm still having trouble acheiving a low evaporation rate. Even tried leaving the lid mainly after the first 5 minutes as suggested by an excellent brewer and found my rate didn't change at all - lol! TidalPete has the same pot and gets heaps less evaporation. This has mne truly buggered! Definitely going to do some side by side experiments on the boils though.

Spot ya,
Pat

Edit: Sorry Kingy. Still haven't made the new bags yet so no photos for you today.


----------



## Kingy

i dropped my pot and material at mums today and shes sewing it up during the week so i can do my first brew this weekend coming  

getting it done like the sleeping bag and a drawstring without the lugs tho.

as for the grain i have to order is it just as simple as picking any AG recipe and order the grain as stated or did i read somewhere that i have to add more grain when doing biab?


----------



## PistolPatch

I've got to race after this post but Ned will be proud of you! For a normal grain bill say 4.5-5.5kgs, I usually order 90% of the grain amount as my initial brews and side by side brews with batch-sparged brews showed BIAB to have a slightly higher efficiency. (This may not hold true for high gravity beers though for reasons I can't quite understand yet.)

For your first one, just copy the recipe exactly. The worst that will happen is you might just get a slightly higher strength beer than the recipe. This is not a big deal and may even assist in your celebrations.


Pat


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Just responding to something Pat said in the BIAB register thread. Thought my answer was more appropriately posted here.



PistolPatch said:


> Blackbock: Mate thanks so much for doing the BIAB summary stuff. That was a great effort. Interesting stuff on the high gravity beers. Your experience reflects ThirstyBoy's assumptions though he said a similiar decreas would occurr with batch-sparging. (I don't really understand all that stuff by the way  but I'll get there.) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> Hopefully someone else will test out the high gravity beers alongside a batch-sparger. I'd do it but I can't even handle normal strength beers.



Pat, the drop in efficiency is higher gravity beers is simply because of the amount of sweet liquid that is trapped in the left over grains. A high gravity wort will not only have more sugar content per ml of liquid, but there will also be more grams of grain for the liquid to be trapped in.

This isn't the case with fly sparging, because you are rinsing out the sugar with pure water, you could theoratically rinse out basically all the sugar if you just kept on sparging. Yeah, its more complex than that, but its close.BIAB and Batch sparging are much more simple because of the homogenous nature of the sugar solution, whereas there is a gradient accross the grain bed in fly.

Suffice it to say, that in both BIAB and batch, as you increase the gravity of the beer and the mass of the grain, there is an increase in the proportion of sugar left behind in the grist when you pull the bag or drain the tun. The proportion is different between batch and BIAB because of the "batch" aspect. The second and maybe third drainings in a batch sparge are much less concentrated.. so while the amount of sugar lost to the grist also increases with gravity and grain mass in batch, it increases at a slower rate than it does with BIAB

You can crunch the numbers yourself -- 

*extract loss to grist in BIAB = gravity of wort to kettle (plato) x volume of Wort lost to grist in ml*

*extract loss to grist in Batch = 0.3333 x graity of wort to kettle (plato) x (Wort lost to grist + Wort left in MT dead space)*

throw in the numbers for a sliding increase in gravity and grist and make a graph

I've assumed that the lost wort in a batch sparge has a gravity of one third that of the kettle wort because thats roughly what it is in my system. It'll change depending on how you conduct your batch sparge, but the principle will be the same. You also need to remember that most of the time, BIAB loses less volume of wort to grain than does batch sparging, and has no dead space.

When you make these two graphs, you will see that at certain gravities BIAB has less totally unrecoverable sugar than batch sparging but batch overtakes BAIB as the grian bill increases. Where that crossover occurs depends on the size of your Mashtun deadspace and how much liquid you lose to your grain in each method.

If you are 2 lazy to crunch the numbers yourself here is one I prepared earlier. I assumed a pre-boil volume of 30litres. A wort to grain loss ration of 0.5litres per kg for BIAB and 1.1 litres per kg for batch and there are three seperate graphs for three different sizes of mashtun deadspace. The whole thing is expressed as percentages of the final amount of extract in the kettle

data on the first sheet, graph on the second ok

View attachment BIAB_vs_Batch._Sugar_extracton.xls


The upshot of this is that it really isn't that big a deal. I just compensate by using a sliding expected efficiency when I BIAB. I start with an expected efficiency (into the kettle) of 75% @ a gravity of 1.030 and I subtract an efficiency point for each ten points of gravity that comes from grain

so 
1.04 = 74%
1.05 = 73% etc etc
1.1 = 68%

and that works for me.

I dont really bother when I batch sparge, maybe a couple of points between an ordinary bitter and a barleywine if I am feeling keen.

Now there are practicalities and other real things that get in the way of nice clean maths. Your method of dong things may be twice as efficient as mine or it might suck. Doesn't really matter, this effect MUST occur given the nature of the methods. Its just a matter of what the rates and proportions are.

I get perfectly acceptable efficiencies with BIAB even at 1.09 (the biggest beer I have BIAB'd) even if they are generally a little lower than my batch sparege effs. Its just nice to know that you need to take into account the size of the grain bill.

Thirsty


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

Wow another great post Thirsty .. Great stuff .. Just love a good graph. Thanks for the effort with all this stuff , it realy helps .. Great work.
:beer:


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## Hashie

Good post Thirsty.

The figures you gave sum up what i have found to be the case on my equipment.
ie. The black beer I have going down ATM OG 1048 = ~74% efficiency;
A brown Ale I did 2 weeks ago OG 1052 = ~73% efficiency etc.

Not really a big drama, and that's using a corona style mill for the grain. I can only suspect that my efficiencies will go up when I get a roller mill.


----------



## Ross

PistolPatch said:


> I've been having one small flavour coming through in Batz's Altbier that people have found hard to name. It's like a really slight medicinal taste but it's not an infection.



Hi Pat,

Have you checked the clarity of this one; is it developing a slight haze? This sounds similar to one of the problems Zizzle was having with the long term health of his BIAB brews...

cheers Ross


----------



## PistolPatch

Thirsty: You're a champion! My ols are moving back to Sydney this week so I haven't got much time on my hands. I'm going to enjoy studying your post above in my off-time. Many thanks for taking what must have been ages on your post above. Excellent!

Ross: This altbier has me buggered. It's the only bastard I'm getting this weird flavour on and guess what? I just tasted the one in the fermenter that was done with a slow boil and the bloody flavour is there again! Quite pronounced this time too.

I've never had any long-term stability issues with BIAB. I even brought that swap lager with only about 3 litres left in the keg from QLD to here. It spent about 8 weeks out of the fridge, crossed the Nullabor and had its last two weeks in a 42 degree shed! The bloody thing was fine at this end - lol! Still a pretty boring beer though for me.

My clarity out of the boil has been great though I've always used whirfloc or more recenlty Koppafloc so I'm not sure if the removal of these would show up anything. Clarity out of the fermenter I haven't checked for ages as I've been filtering straight from the fermenter. I better check this out on the next brew.

As I said, it's just this one bloody beer!

I'm doing a kolsch side by side with doogie in about two weeks so I'll keep a closer eye on all these aspects. He has a fridge in which we can ferment them together etc etc so it should be another interesting experiment.

I'm tempted to do the altbier with US-56 next time. I'm not sure what sort of beer that would actually give me :unsure: but I'm sure it would be very drinkable and would at least let help in working out whether this problem is unique to Nottingham for me or BIAB in general.

Anyway I love solving a mystery. Mind you, I wish I'd solved this altbier one several brews ago - lol! 

Gotta go - removalists await!

Spot ya and thanks guys,
Pat


----------



## PistolPatch

Edit: The below is mainly me thinking out loud but it may help someone else. Mind you there is a bit towards the end where I added another column to Thirsty's spreadsheet which you might find interesting.

Mornin' Thirsty!

I've been studying your efficiency post above further this morning (you wrote 2 A4 pages by the way - good on ya!) and had started to try to ask a question here on the 'batch' aspect. In the process of trying to write the question, I think I have realised where I have been going wrong.

To date, my thinking on the mashing and sparging process has been based on the asumption that we are dealing with a saturated solution of sugar in beer-making. This assumption was incorrect (wasn't it?)

If we were dealing with a saturated solution then it wouldn't matter how you applied the water to the grist - you are never going to get all the sugar out.

However, if we are dealing with an unsaturated solution, then the way in which you apply water becomes more important and will have an effect on how much sugar you can extract.

So, from your post and the graph I'm now thinking...

If BIAB didn't get the low wort-to grain loss ratio and the zero deadspace, then it would always be slightly behind batching even at low grain bills. Is that right?

I'm hoping you'll say yes as this will mean I finally understand this thing clearly!!!

This would also explain why in the side by side test BIAB/batch tests and my own personal BIAB/batch comparisons, the BIAB efficiency was on average around 5% higher. The deadspace on our batch systems becomes a key point. (I remember that I had to add water to the BIAB to dilute it down to the gravity of the batch.) Our deadspaces were probably higher than the 2.5lt maximum in your spreadsheet.

Yep! I think I have it now! I just added a new column to your spreadsheet and put 4lts of deadspace in for a mash tun. Doing this means BIAB would be ahead until you reeached a grain bill of about 7kgs.

Thanks mate! I think I finally have got it! Let me know if I haven't though 

We'll have to work out what the crossover 'mash tun deadspace' point is for a 5kg grain bill. This would be an interesting figure to know.

Now I'm worried that my excitement at understanding this may lead others to think it is a big issue. It's not. It is as you said just an interesting one. I better finish this essay with a quote form your post...



> The upshot of this is that it really isn't that big a deal.



Thank you very much Mr Thirsty :super: 
(Please tell me I have now 'got it!')


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## Thirsty Boy

Thats more or less it Pat.

A batch is leaving behind some sugar solution, but it is a less saturated solution than BIAB.

So you are right, if you had a batch system that could lose only about 0.5litres per kg to the grist and had no deadspace, then it would always have less unrecoverable sugar than BIAB.

So each system has its pros and cons. and guess what?? they come out close to even
Cool

TB


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## Kingy

My bag turned up tonight unexpectadly..... dont laugh im pissed :beerbang: 

here it is sewn up. As the sleeping bag method as suggested. So see how it goes ay... 




and here it is in the pot



was stitched and then double stitched with an overlocker :unsure: by the sounds of it,it sounds good ) wateva an overlocker is.......

and here is Mrs Kingy drunk off my latest kegged brew.. ive never seen her so proud of my fridge :blink:




Cant wait to see her after my first Biab Brew lol....

id love to brew now but i wouldnt have a clue what im doing so as soon as i wake up.....Its Biab Time...

cheers Kingy


----------



## PistolPatch

Best of luck today Kingy. You've got great equipment there - that bag is really well done. :super: I have one really important question though...

Mrs Kingy got any sisters?

Thirsty: Thanks again mate. It's gret to finally hav my head around that one.


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## Kingy

hey thx PP all going to plan right now and the aluminium pot holds temp really rell.

Mrs kingy has got 3 sisters but ive got the best from the litter  

I know i shouldnt be having a beer right now but im fairly hunged over and a kilkenny is fixing that


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## SpillsMostOfIt

If you're interested in my half-batch brew system and the skyhook thing that took PistolPatch's interest, I've waffled about them a bit here -> http://sillybeertricks.blogspot.com/2007/0...brew-often.html

There's pics, so you can ignore the words if you want to...


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## Ross

Best of luck with your 1st AG Kingy :super: 

cheers Ross


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## Kingy

Hey thx heaps guys everything went to plan and tastes bloody beutiful alltho a little cloudy. So ill rack in a few days to clean it up a bit.

Me being a lopper i had a few pullys lying around and a climbing rope so i rigged up a pully system to make life easier 




and chilled with 2 bags of ice in the wheel barrow and water




it took about 40 mins so ill have to work out something else before next time.

just another BIG thank you!! to everyone here who has given me plenty of advise and hints and tips on moving into this method. And to ross for ingredients and all my beer paraphenalia 

And extra special thx to PistolPatch for putting the time and effort into writing the BIAB guide that was a huge help and it probably wouldnt have worked out if i didnt read that. :super: 

I could probably talk that guide out word for word without looking at it  

If the Brew shops werent closed tomorrow id probably do another one :beer: 

cheers kingy


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## eric8

Top work Kingy :beerbang: . Now you just have to wait for it to ferment and you can taste the spoils of your labour.


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## jimmysuperlative

Champion effort Kingy! :chug: 

...Looks and sounds like you had a great day!


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## PistolPatch

Congratulations to you Kingy! Great to see your post and the pics! (Slightly dissapointed that Mrs Kingy's three sisters aren't in the photo but it was your first AG so it's quite understandable that you made one major error )

Really pleased to hear it all went well. Skyhooks are good eh? I finally got to use one on Friday for the first time.

By the look of your bag, your mother-in-law (I think it was her?) has done a splendid job - that's a damn good bag. I noticed that yours has a V in it. My neice had to put one in mine as well and said it was a bastard to sew but I can't understand why.

I need to sew two new bags up pretty quickly so any feedback you can get from your mother-in-law would be greatly appreciated.

SpillsMostOfIt (nice blog mate) would probably like hearing any bag advice as well seeing as he is the bag prototype pioneer!

By the way, what do you guys reckon about using Spills sleeping bag shape but also having a zip at the base for easy grain disposal?

Anyway, lots has been happenning and I could write more but for today, I reckon nothing could beat Kingy doing his first AG!

Bunyip is proud of you Kingy and we both know where you live. I often pass your way when in NSW so start telling Mrs Kingy's sisters that PP owns his own brewery and make sure you gently lead them to assume I must therefore have a lot of money. We can deal with the fallout from false assumptions later 

Hey, I'm not sure you told us what you actually brewed? Do we have to wait one or two weeks for the taste test?

Well done mate,
Pat


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## poppa joe

HEY PP....
This is a beer forum ....  
What u need is MATCHMAKERS.com  
Cheers
PJ :beerbang:


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## PistolPatch

Ah Poppa!

I've been dying to write to the BOAB thread for ages. Maybe I'll have a crack tonight if I can think of something appropriate. I saw your logo a while back - how good is that?

InCider threatened to put my pic and some fictitious story on one of those things you were talking about and I had to threaten him with bottle bombs.

Crikey!
Pat


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## poppa joe

PP..
Cant remember what i was talking about..????????? :excl: 
Was it the $2.00 ..22 LT Pot.from the recyclers...Ex Maccas I think..Heavy Duty pot..?
Been doing a Tafe course on Paint Shop Pro....Just have to learn how to reverse text in a circle ..
To do another Logo..
Cheers 
PJ


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## Kingy

thx guys i couldn't have planned for a better day. 
Cant get hold of my old lady but ill try again later i think shes just sewed it normally then double stiched it again. and the seems are on the outside of the bag. 

The recipe was based on TL's yabba dabba do dortmunder in the recipie section with a few changes.

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Yabba Dabba Do Dortmunder
Brewer: KINGY
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Dortmunder Export
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L 
Boil Size: 38.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.045 SG
Estimated Color: 8.5 EBC
Estimated IBU: 31.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 69.9 %
Boil Time: 75 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.00 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (3.9 EBC) Grain 83.3 % 
0.50 kg Munich Malt (17.7 EBC) Grain 10.4 % 
0.30 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (3.9 EBC) Grain 6.3 % 
35.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.70%] (60 minHops 15.9 IBU 
40.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.70%] (30 minHops 13.9 IBU 
15.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.70%] (5 min)Hops 1.4 IBU 



cheers kingy 
p.s cant wait to sit around and watch and smell boiling beer again.Cant brew this weekend going backpack camping in the mountains.. Unless i do it friday night .yea im brewing friday night lol


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## Hashie

Good on ya Kingy. This BIABing is addictive


----------



## PistolPatch

Evenin' Fellow BIABers!

Need your feedback on what areas of BIAB you might like to explore next.

I think I mentioned that I did my first brew in a spacious environment the other day (i.e. not in an apartment) and it was also my first side by side BIAB brew. Here's a few pics...













So, thanks to one of my 7 sisters (how's that Kingy?) marrying a brew lover, we now have some good testing facilities available. The question is, "What should we do with it?"

Do you want...

*Batch versus BIAB?*

I can pull out my batch-sparging gear and do Batch versus BIAB brews. Pulling the batch gear out will be a PITA and batch-sparging compared to BIABing requires a lot more effort but, in saying this, I'm very interested in doing these tests at some stage anyway so doing them before the below tests will make no difference to me personally.

Batch versus BIAB testing will be of more interest to those considering AG or those who are BIABing now but would appreciate more info on BIAB versus batch or who assume that traditional brewing will give a better beer.

If I do set up the batch gear. the first test I'm going to do is Batz's Altbier because I keep getting that weird flavour. I'm not very confident that BIAB is the cause of the weird flavour because all my other beers are great and certainly equivalent to traditionally brewed beers but I've tried everything else! I need to find a reason why my Alt is not working and I'm more than happy for it to be BIAB. If it is, then we can do some more tests to work out whether it is certain yeasts, such as Nottingham (which does have some pecularities) that are sensitive to full-volume brewing or maybe even poor BIAB practices (oxidisation.)

*or BIAB versus BIAB*

I started writing here and then came to a full stop. Mmmm. What is there that we would like to test out with BIAB? Mash out versus no mash out is the only thing that springs to mind immediately and I think that we already have answered that question to a good degree though one or two more brews side by side with a triangular test done two weeks, three months and six months after ferment would be interesting.

The only other test I can think of is of ways to minimise the carrying of trub into the fermenter* but anything we discover here will apply to batch and fly-sparging too. They will not be unique to BIAB.

Can you guys think of any other BIAB versus BIAB tests?

*What Do You Want Me To Do?*

Writing the above has made me realise that I don't really care what I do first though I think the trub management issue should be dealt with first so as to create an even base between the BIAB and Batch.

So, are you guys interested in this? Can you offer any ideas on things I should measure or pay attention to? Even if you don't have any ideas, can you at least let me know that you would be interested in the results? I mean, I don't want to write the details up if no one is interested - lol!

Spot ya  
Pat

P.S. Thanks for the update Kingy. A Dortmunder - cool! PJ - I'll get to thje BOAB thread eventually.

*Quite interesting and important this issue. Has a huge effect on 'real' efficiency


----------



## Hashie

Hey Pat. I'm very interested in any results from tests you get.

One I would like to see is a side by side;
1st, with all the grain tossed in at 66 degrees.
2nd, with the base malts tossed in at 66 and the specialty malts tossed in at mash out.

I am doing the mash out with specialty grains added then. But am un-able to do a side by side due to a lack of equipment.

Cheers Hashie


----------



## PistolPatch

That would be interesting for everyone I reckon Hashie. Good on ya!

Have you got any recipes in mind?

I just thought of another BIAB one too - a fine crush versus a coarse crush but will have to wait until BrissyBrew gets his mill on the market.

Thanks Hashie!


----------



## Hashie

You could do Aiden's Irish Red. This brew has only 3 malts.
Mash the Ale malt at 66 then add the Carared and Cararoma at mash out.

This would be a relatively simple beer to do a side by side on.


----------



## Kingy

Went and priced some copper today for an immersion chiller $ 230 for an 18 metre roll :angry: 

so i gave it a miss and brought 3 bags of ice and and filled the bath up. It worked extremely well except when i drained the bath and found that because my pot dont fit properly in the bath it scratched the shit out of the tub while i was cooling.

Ive allready been in trouble for scratching the bath when cleaning kegs :blink: The missus is gunna kill me when she gets home bcoz these scratches are huge. and also bcoz i havent tidyed the house up but ive done a brew and my shed is spotless.

need help
kingy


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## PistolPatch

LOL Kingy!

To get the stainless steel sctraches out of the bath, buy a little microfibre foam block called, 'White Magic,' from your hardware. Costs about $5. This works on modern tubs and hopefully enamel ones too as the marks usually aren't scratches, more stainless smears.

Shame about the copper. Maybe the no chill guys here can give you a few tips?

Good luck with Mrs Kingy!
Pat


----------



## blackbock

I can vouch for the white magic too. Works wonders. %^&! I'm starting to sound like a SNAG here.


----------



## Harry-Rmlbrs

Patch,

After reading through the summaries and going through the guide I am even more excited about doing the brew this arvo!
I'll have the opportunity to brew with the founding father (or at least one of them) of BIAB!

See you at 2!

Harry

PS: I'll get my camera set up so we can document a double BIAB brew for the guide


----------



## PistolPatch

Welcome to AHB Harry and congratulations on your first brew - I think you may have set some sort of record...

You're the only person I've heard of whose first brew ever was an all-grain :super:

I don't think I've ever had so much joy from helping someone to start all-graining. Why? Because now I can probably start filling my fridge faster than it has been getting emptied lately - a problem that has only occurred since Harry has been dropping in for a 'quick' beer - lol.

We started at 4:30pm on Tuesday  and Harry and his mate managed to get two 'staggered'brews chilled and into the fermenter in six hours. Great stuff.

You better add your name to the BIAB Brewer Register with 2 brews and 46 litres.

Looking forward to many great side by side brews with you and to drinking all your beer while doing so. Excellent!!!


Pat


----------



## Doogiechap

I had the pleasure of meeting Harry tonight whilst he was filtering his virgin brew into a Keg. What a way to start ! Riding the slippery slope at breakneck speed  .
Welcome Harry may your beers be tasty and plentiful.
Cheers
Doug  



PistolPatch said:


> Welcome to AHB Harry and congratulations on your first brew - I think you may have set some sort of record...
> 
> You're the only person I've heard of whose first brew ever was an all-grain :super:
> 
> I don't think I've ever had so much joy from helping someone to start all-graining. Why? Because now I can probably start filling my fridge faster than it has been getting emptied lately - a problem that has only occurred since Harry has been dropping in for a 'quick' beer - lol.
> 
> We started at 4:30pm on Tuesday  and Harry and his mate managed to get two 'staggered'brews chilled and into the fermenter in six hours. Great stuff.
> 
> You better add your name to the BIAB Brewer Register with 2 brews and 46 litres.
> 
> Looking forward to many great side by side brews with you and to drinking all your beer while doing so. Excellent!!!
> 
> 
> Pat


----------



## Harry-Rmlbrs

Thanks for the warm welcome Pat and Dougie,
Starting with AG is certainly a bit intimidating, thankfully only Pat lives about 100m away which is great if/when I get stuck.
I can't wait to try my first brew out, I hope I didn't bugger it up too badly! There is no way I could have survived it without all the help from Pat, he is a bloody walking encyclopedia when it comes to brewing! Especially when it comes to BIAB.

Hopefully now that I've started brewing Pat's Fridge may be able to survive without needing a refill for more than 3 days!

Cheers
Harry


----------



## PistolPatch

By my calculations Harry, if you do a brew every second day, that should keep your fridge topped up. Get rid of your mates and once a week should be fine 

*Batch versus BIAB with hughman666 and Norkell*

This brew proves that you can not only have a great time brewing but also learn something in the process. We learned that if you put the three of us together, there is no possible way that you can do a side by side brew - lol!

The first major brewing error we made and probably the only real relevant one was the two hours of drinking we did before even mashing in. It's not like we were being lazy or anything, we had to crush the grain with hughman's Marga and this takes a long time!

There was an abundance of beautiful beer floating around so what is one to do?

Harry-Rmblrs came to pick me up at 7 which created a bit of a timing crisis in draining one kettle. I don't think we'll even go there :blink:

Suffice to say that if these two beers taste similiar it will be a miracle. The only measurements I remember of interest was that hughman's efficiency turned out higher than the BIAB's and norkel's wife looks very similiar to an old girlfriend of mine 

A bloody top day though. Doesn't get much more fun than that! I think we brewed an APA or something.

*Batch versus BIAB with Doogiechap*

After Saturday, I was pretty keen on having a low alcohol brew day. Doogie and I managed that today and had a very relaxed time and even scored a few measurments whilst brewing our kolsch.

Here they are. (Batch figures first/BIAB second).


Mash plus Sparge Water: 40lts/37lts
Volume into Fermenter: 22.9lts/22.7lts
OG into Fermenter: 1.048/1.044
Sediment/Trub: 850mls/3300mls
Lost Wort: Zero lts/550mls
Actual Efficiency Into Fermenter*: 69.6%/63.3%
Final Efficiency*: 69.6%/64.8%
Losses to Grain Absorption: 3200mls/960mls1.04822.9

The batch went a little low at one stage during the mash and a little high during the mash out but not for too long. The BIAB was a gentler boil than the batch.

To even up the OG's we added 1300ml of water ot the batch brew (should have been more like 2lts but we didn't have any high tech software available at the time)

*Efficiencies above are based on 5kg of malt as I don't have the actual recipe with me at the moment and the 'final efficiency'figure excludes all sediment.

*Summary*

We had a few mishaps on the syphoning of kettles and a little variance in mash temp but it should be interesting to taste the beers. We'll find out soon enough. This brew sort of turned out the opposite of the first side by side with Brad where we had to dilute the BIAB by about 2 lts.

The measurement of trub and sediment we did plus the weighing of the spent grain indicates that BIAB's lower losses to grain is due to more particles from the mash getting through to the kettle. As we've seen from some articles linked above, this is not a negative. Obviously you don't want to be pumping all the extra trub into your fermenter, but monitoring the clarity of the wort running into your fermenter will avoid this.

I've been lazy lately and haven't been using my hop sock. I'm going to start using it again as it makes it easier to get clearer wort running into your fermenter and my measuremnets back then were far more predictable as well.

Thank you Doogie, hughman and Norkell. I had a top time on both days. Next time you buggers can load up all your gear and come to my place though. My brew at hughman's would have to be the most expensive brew I have ever done but that's another story.


Pat


----------



## hughman666

my word, what a brew day. i think my liver took a beating, for some reason we were drinking like it was new year's eve!! my estimates of consumption were:

12 x hoegaarden stubbies
3 x james squire golden ale
9 x pat's PET bottles of differing ale vaireties
~8L of hughman's APA (just under half the keg)
~2L of hughman's Weizen

that was a fair amount of beer in a 7 hour drinking/brewing session

by the time pat and norkell's lifts came to take them home, i don't think i was even speaking english! norkell had to go home via the in-laws - hahaha!

i have never laughed so hard as I did on saturday. there were plenty of mishaps but we did make a pretty good beer. my APA is fermenting really well and tastes great!

for those interested, here was the recipe:

2.5kg marris otter pale
2.5kg joe white export pils
0.25kg jow white wheat

14g chinook @ 60mins
14g cascade @ 20mins
28g cascade @ 10mins

us56 yeast

OG 1047 (temp corrected with promash)
after only 48 hrs it's already down to 1018


----------



## THE DRUNK ARAB

http://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/index.ph...4ceb3073a8a25d7

C&B
TDA


----------



## Kingy

LMAO :lol: ha good one!!!


----------



## PistolPatch

Top one TDA!!! Very good! :beer:


----------



## T.D.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## warrenlw63

THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> http://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/index.ph...4ceb3073a8a25d7
> 
> C&B
> TDA



PURE GOLD!!! :lol: :lol: 

Off for a Kingfisher Lager. :beerbang: 

Warren -


----------



## 3GumsBrewing

Guys, 2 quick questions - 

I am using a 40L pot (I know, I know, I should have bought a bigger one!) and usually fill it up to 32L then add any water to the boil if needed.

Up until now most of my brews have used a lot of grain > 5.5kg's. Would anyone suggest altering the initial amount of water for a brew that uses only 4.5kg's of grain?

Also I have read through all posts here once but can not remember, has anyone done any calculations on the water to grain ratio for BIAB?

Cheers
DK

:super:


----------



## PistolPatch

Howdy DK,

I better answer your questions back the front...

There's no set water to grain ratio for BIAB. What you are looking for is using (assuming your pot is big enough) all the water you need for the brew right at the start. Given a large enough pot, the only factors in BIAB that will affect how much water you need are:-

1. Evaporation Rate: This will be affected by the shape of your pot and how long you boil for.

2. Losses to Trub - This will be affected by how much you can or are willing to drain out of your kettle.

3. Grain Bill - This is not as critical in BIAB as it is in traditional brewing. For example, I don't even look at the weight of my grain bill that much. I basically brew either full-strength beers or light beers. For a 23 litre batch, the former beers may be anywhere from 4.5 to 6kgs of grain and I'll use 37 lts of water at the start regardless. For light beers which have a grain bill a little over 3kgs, I use 35.5 litres of water. My evaporation rates are on the high side but the above figures work out nicely enough.

For those who want a little more accuracy, I'd work on a grain absorption figure of 500mls of water per kilo of grain with BIAB rather than the 1 lt per kilo in traditional brewing.

So Dave, I wouldn't worry about altering your initial volume with only a kg lighter grain bill especially if you are already having to use top up water.

In fact, with the smaller pot, maybe it's even worth using less water for all your brews so you are not panicking about boil-overs. Just add some extra water during the boil or at the end - make your brew day a little less worrisome. 

The main thing to remember is that there's lots of room for flexibility so don't be afraid of altering volumes to suit your equipment.

 
Pat


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

Yeah... Depends on how you look at your brewing to an extent.

I recommend the 90 minute boil. It ensures that all the good stuff that boiling does is done. It also allows you to turn everything off after 30 minutes and do some calculations.

If you're looking for a particular volume, you can - after 30 minutes - get a decent understanding of what your final volume is going to be.

If you're looking for a particular specific gravity, you can - after 30 minutes - get an understanding of what your gravity out of the boiler is going to be.

Of course, you will want to know both and if you seek out one, you'll get the other for free.

I am a recent convert to refractometers - they make all this stuff a lot easier.

Edit: schpealling


----------



## 3GumsBrewing

Thanks Pat and Spills, I ended up using 35 litres and it was perfect. 
After siphoning from the pot to the fermenter and leaving behind about 2 litres of crap (I don't use a hop sock) I ended up with my perfect 22 litres. I also found that when siphoning I reused the bag as a filter, made the wort clearer than I have had before!
It was a German Pilsner so fingers crossed!

Cheers
DK


----------



## joecast

forgive me for not reading the whole thread, but what i have read is pretty damn interesting. this will make not having a brew stand much less of an issue.

just wondering about part mashes? (if its been covered in the thread already, please let me know)
i dont want to overshoot my volume by too much so thinking of mashing with my final volume (about 21L) and topping up before the start of the boil. i have a rough idea of my evaporation rate so this should allow me to get pretty close to my desired volume. 

ok, realising im not actually asking any question here :blink: 
i will add my name to the list of people who are totally blown away by the work put into making this guide. im sure i'll be using it more over the next couple of weeks. way to go ahb'ers :beerbang: 
joe


----------



## PistolPatch

Howdy Joe :super: 

Really looking forward to seeing such an old member's name on the list - you must be around FNQBunyip's vintage!

Hopefully my last post here helps a bit with your question or should I say musings  Certainly you have a lot of lee-way to play around until you get your final volumes right. I reckon you could go in at at least 28lts for your mash though without any worries of over-shooting.

Look forward to hearing how you go and if you have any other questions, fire away.

Spot ya,
Pat


----------



## Batz

Pat
My old mate
Do you always do Brew in the bag thing?
Could this be why the two recipes of mine you have brewed don't taste the same as the ones I brew.
Well it is a factor in the equation I am afraid :blink: 

Batz


----------



## Screwtop

Kingy said:


> Went and priced some copper today for an immersion chiller $ 230 for an 18 metre roll :angry:
> 
> so i gave it a miss and brought 3 bags of ice and and filled the bath up. It worked extremely well except when i drained the bath and found that because my pot dont fit properly in the bath it scratched the shit out of the tub while i was cooling.
> 
> Ive allready been in trouble for scratching the bath when cleaning kegs :blink: The missus is gunna kill me when she gets home bcoz these scratches are huge. and also bcoz i havent tidyed the house up but ive done a brew and my shed is spotless.
> 
> need help
> kingy




Kingy,

Hit your nearest scrap metal yard and head for the old hot water system liners (copper) inside they have beaut copper coils, cut it out and you pay for the scrap weight in copper, asked at the local scrap yard the other day and they said about $15 - $20

Screwy


----------



## Kingy

Screwtop said:


> Kingy,
> 
> Hit your nearest scrap metal yard and head for the old hot water system liners (copper) inside they have beaut copper coils, cut it out and you pay for the scrap weight in copper, asked at the local scrap yard the other day and they said about $15 - $20
> 
> Screwy



Cheers mate its a great idea.. but ive been no chilling (my last 5 brews) and cant notice any differance so ill stick with the no chill from now on.

And i just done my first double batch and worked well and id hate to think of how much water i could waste with a chiller now that ill be doing more twin batches

cheers kingy


----------



## PistolPatch

Batz said:


> Pat
> My old mate
> Do you always do Brew in the bag thing?
> Could this be why the two recipes of mine you have brewed don't taste the same as the ones I brew.
> Well it is a factor in the equation I am afraid :blink:
> 
> Batz



Ah Batz!

I'm still trying to get to the post office to send you my Altbier. I really struggle with getting to Aust Post! I left the last alt for about a month and it tastes OK but there's still something I don't like about it. Lots of people don't even notice the flavour. Anyway I'm hanging to hear what you reckon. I'm thinking that maybe I'm expecting it to taste a certain way which might be based on false memory syndrome as I don't think I ever tasted the Bat Cave alt before 1am :blink: I think matti has done the alt in the bag and loves it. I loved my early ones too so maybe my taste buds have just gone haywire and all they focus on is this one bit I don't like???? (I've done the same with many old girlfriends :blink: ) Next brew I'm doing is the alt with 56. I reckon that'll fix it!

As for the Kin Kin, Brad and I tried that together - he batched and I bagged. Both were bloody awful but we didn't have your special yeast only SO4 :angry:

Mmmm. I reckon I might have to con you into sending me your alt and I'll taste it before 1am so I actually know what I'm aiming for!

I like Screwtops idea on the scrapyard - need a second chiller. Thanks mate.

Hey Kingy, Harry did two double batches on our gear yesterday. No worries at all with the bag handling the extra grain. Too easy!

Spot ya,
Pat.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

PistolPatch said:


> I like Screwtops idea on the scrapyard - need a second chiller. Thanks mate.




I read somewhere recently that per capita water usage in the West is about double that of the Eastern states. Now I know why!  

joecast - For my first BIAB ever, I ignored the recipe in the BIAB guide, but followed the volume advisories to the letter and got very close - a little under in fact. Of course it will depend on your kit, but I wouldn't be worrying too much about that sort of thing for your first one. I was expecting to turn out something heaps worse than I ended up with and my liver has never been more shrivelled...


----------



## Kingy

Ok so i was gunna do a brew today and couldnt find my grain bag which is usually washed and packed away. Then i thought the missus had put it somewhere so i questioned her and "nup dunno where it is"

Any way i found my grain bag under the bench in my big bucket still full of grain from last brew day 4 days ago and it has about 20-30 spots of mould on it .(dont know how i forgot to clean this as im obsessed with cleaning and getting everything ready for the next brew day)
Im washing now it hot water with brewers detergent to try and get it out. 

Is there anything that i can soak my bag in or wash in to get rid of the mould? Without affecting to strength of the bag.

Does it really matter if the mould stays. As The boil should take care of any nasties? 

cheers, kingy

edit: spelling


----------



## Adamt

I say... take the Napisan challenge! (Home brand of course). Then rinse well of course.

Yes the boil may take care of most of the nasties but its still likely to smell or taste like mould. You wouldnt cook make a stew with mouldy meat would you? (I'd hope not)


----------



## PistolPatch

LOL Kingy!

Nice to hear from Adamt and yep, go the Napisan, If that doesn't work then try pink stain remover which is a bit more powerful.

If you have the material for your bag that I do, it takes a beating so don't be worried about affecting the strength. The only thing I am aware of that affects material strenght is bleach. Bleach, while I do love it for other brewing purposes, eats away at material over time even if you rinse it.

Spot ya,
Pat


----------



## joecast

well well well, count me in as a biab convert. had my busiest and smoothest brew day so far. 

did a porter (part mash biab), and dropped that on to the yeast cake of another brew that i racked into secondary earlier this morning. everything went about as well as i could have expected. even my keg boiler didnt leak!!

things that made the day easy:

-silicon hose: why didnt i get some of this before. fit right over the tap on my plastic fermenter. easy to handle, easy to clean. good stuff all around.

-brewing in a bag: takes all the fuss of not having a gravity or pump brew stand out of the equation. swmbo sewed up a bag last night and it worked a treat. only had to hold under 2kg of grain, but that could easily be increased to 5+kg (maybe next time).

had to add some boiling water to the mash to hold temp, but that can be accounted for next time. was planning to have to add some to the fermenter to make up final volume which would have helped bring the temp down, but that shouldnt be an issue. its all bubbling away now about 22C hopefully down to 16C by morning, and 12 or 14 the day after. 

anyway, just wanted to thank the guys for putting together the biab guide. makes mash brewing much more accessible. CHEERS!!!
joe


----------



## Thirsty Boy

joecast said:


> well well well, count me in as a biab convert. had my busiest and smoothest brew day so far.
> 
> did a porter (part mash biab), and dropped that on to the yeast cake of another brew that i racked into secondary earlier this morning. everything went about as well as i could have expected. even my keg boiler didnt leak!!
> 
> things that made the day easy:
> 
> -silicon hose: why didnt i get some of this before. fit right over the tap on my plastic fermenter. easy to handle, easy to clean. good stuff all around.
> 
> -brewing in a bag: takes all the fuss of not having a gravity or pump brew stand out of the equation. swmbo sewed up a bag last night and it worked a treat. only had to hold under 2kg of grain, but that could easily be increased to 5+kg (maybe next time).
> 
> had to add some boiling water to the mash to hold temp, but that can be accounted for next time. was planning to have to add some to the fermenter to make up final volume which would have helped bring the temp down, but that shouldnt be an issue. its all bubbling away now about 22C hopefully down to 16C by morning, and 12 or 14 the day after.
> 
> anyway, just wanted to thank the guys for putting together the biab guide. makes mash brewing much more accessible. CHEERS!!!
> joe



Nice one Joe.

Hope it tastes great for you. Gotta get me some of that silicon hose.

Chalk another convert up to the pistol man.

TB


----------



## wabster

joecast said:


> well well well, count me in as a biab convert. had my busiest and smoothest brew day so far.
> 
> 
> things that made the day easy:
> 
> -silicon hose: why didnt i get some of this before. fit right over the tap on my plastic fermenter. easy to handle, easy to clean. good stuff all around.
> 
> -brewing in a bag: takes all the fuss of not having a gravity or pump brew stand out of the equation. swmbo sewed up a bag last night and it worked a treat. only had to hold under 2kg of grain, but that could easily be increased to 5+kg (maybe next time).



Joe two questions if I may.

Is that the silicon hose from Bunnings? What size was it to fit the brew vessel tap?

I asked the wife to get some Swiss Voile (sp) at Spotlight at Rockdale but they are out of stock. What did you use, and what size piece did you start with?

I am really keen to get started on BIAB, Cheerz Wab.


----------



## joecast

wabster said:


> Joe two questions if I may.
> 
> Is that the silicon hose from Bunnings? What size was it to fit the brew vessel tap?
> 
> I asked the wife to get some Swiss Voile (sp) at Spotlight at Rockdale but they are out of stock. What did you use, and what size piece did you start with?
> 
> I am really keen to get started on BIAB, Cheerz Wab.



hose is from craft brewer. 2m is just the right length for me (expensive, but worth it for ease of use) and the 1/2" id fits right over the tap. held on to it though as i was nervous :unsure: 
according to the wife, the bag material was not the swiss stuff. this was a bit heavier mesh curtain fabric. already had the section for the draw string in it too.


----------



## Adzmax

I'm starting to collect the required equipment to give BIAB a go. I figure it's probably a good place to start before I lash out and buy equipment I may not necessarily need in the future when I move to other AG methods using a separate mash tun and boiling pot. 

Things I WILL need though are -

- A decent size pot (Looking at this one)
- A good gas burner (This one or this one )
- A chiller (Looking at this one)

Curious to know what you think of prices here also 

I'm sure this has been done to death, I've done a bit of searching but wasn't really happy with what I found so I'll ask. What sort of burner would you recommend (a Mongolian a Turkey burner with a a stand like the one on G&G website) and where would Melbourne brewers recommend getting a good quality and well priced 50lt Pot (also seen on the G&G website who's prices seem quite reasonable)



Thanks in advance for your help guys and I'm open to suggestion at this stage, I'd just like to be sure that the equipment I'm looking at purchasing will be well suited to what I'd like to use it for as it's a decent $ investment


----------



## Kingy

Unless you dont mind spending big $$$ you could get out of it far cheaper with.

Buying an aluminium pot from somewhere like here Allquip

Also ditch the chiller idea and grab some cubes and no chill (that way you can brew even when your fermenters are full and have your very own fresh wort kits on stand by)and wait for an available fermenter.

cheers kingy

edit: check this for the lowdown on some burners http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&hl=burners


----------



## Adzmax

Thanks for the info. I'm assuming provided that cubes and equipment are sanitised there in no issues storing wort this way? I'll do some reading, I've seen a few threads floating around 

Appreciate your help!


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Adzmax said:


> I'm starting to collect the required equipment to give BIAB a go. I figure it's probably a good place to start before I lash out and buy equipment I may not necessarily need in the future when I move to other AG methods using a separate mash tun and boiling pot.
> 
> Things I WILL need though are -
> 
> - A decent size pot (Looking at this one)
> - A good gas burner (This one or this one )
> - A chiller (Looking at this one)
> 
> Curious to know what you think of prices here also
> 
> I'm sure this has been done to death, I've done a bit of searching but wasn't really happy with what I found so I'll ask. What sort of burner would you recommend (a Mongolian a Turkey burner with a a stand like the one on G&G website) and where would Melbourne brewers recommend getting a good quality and well priced 50lt Pot (also seen on the G&G website who's prices seem quite reasonable)
> Thanks in advance for your help guys and I'm open to suggestion at this stage, I'd just like to be sure that the equipment I'm looking at purchasing will be well suited to what I'd like to use it for as it's a decent $ investment



Pot - yes, but more expensive from G&G than places like Kingy reccomended. I concur with the Aluminium thing. Cheaper and works well. If you go the G&G, get them to drill a hole for a tap.. you'll want it.

Burner - Yes, but they are high pressure jobbies and need a special reg etc. I have had no preoblems with a low pressure three ring burner (asian cookware shops, camping stores etc) and cant imagine that the 4 ring burners wouldn't be sufficient for anything on a homebrew scale.

Chiller - I mostly chill rather than No-chill. That one will be fine for a standard 20-25 litre batch, but might be a bit small for double batches. The other option I would seriously consider if you want to chill, is a plate chiller from mashmaster or I noticed some on e-bay that looked pretty good. I bought the giant chiller from G&G and its good, but i keep thinking I might have been better off with a plate chiller.... maybe its just greener grass, other side syndrome though.

Good luck.

Thirsty


----------



## Adzmax

I had a read of the burner thread and like the sound of the Italian spiral burner with the adjustable reg and hose @ $129. Uses less gas, makes less noise and it more then enough for what I'll need by the look of it


----------



## PistolPatch

Evenin' Guys!

I've been doing ridiculous hours lately but it's been great to come in at the end of the day and see the new troops BIABing. If I had more time, I'd write a much better welcome.

Bloody nice to see your post joecast. Most people BIABing start with it and, for various understandable reasons think that it is a stepping stone to 'real' brewing.

This might be the BIAB curse for a little while. People will start with BIAB and then look to improve their brewing. At the same time, their recipes will improve and their beer will get better until they find the beers they really like. By this stage, many will have tried filtered water, pH balancing etc and maybe even changed to traditional brewing.

So far joe, we only have Thirsty, you and myself as converts to BIAB from traditional. It should be a lot more hence the reason why I posted several pages ago about entering BIAB beers in competitions. I reckon that is Thirsty's job as he knows how to do it 

While I still have some keyboard stamina, it's probably better that I answer some questions though. I'll work in reverse from the most recent question and see how far I get 

*BURNERS:* 3 Ring or the Italian Burner are what you should go for if you have a stock pot that is 90 litres or less. I have both these and both are virtually silent. If you go the three ring, you should probably get an adjustable regulator as well as the gas flow is not that good with the standard regulator. The Italian burner comes with this and a stand. The only prob I have with the Italian is that, with mine, when you adjust the flame and take your hand off, it over or under compensates. I've been meaning to write to domonsura about this but haven't got around to it yet. Nice burner but. I wouldn't go for the more aggressive burners. The noise is atrocious and often, depending on your kettle, makes no diffrence at all to reaching strike temp.

Control of a burner is far more important. You have to remember that saving 5 or ten minutes in reaching strike or boiling temp in a brew day of 4-5 hours is poor compensation to great control.

*POTS* Allquip tends to be the cheapest Aust wide for both alumium and S/S pots. Pots have an advantage over kegs in the fact that they are legal, do not requirte modicication and have straight sides. It's a purchase you won't regret.

*CHILLERS* Mmmmm. I know nothing of no-chilling. I scored 30m of copper for free so there you go! I like the idea of no-chilling if you don't have to swap containers - in other words, no-chilling in a kettle sounds good to me. Everything else though sounds too labour-intensive.

Ummmm....

One thing that has been worrying me is that someone had converted to batch-sparging as they found they couldn't do step-mashes with BIAB. One of the great advantages of BIAB is that you should be able to do them very well. I checked this with a qualified brewer a few weeks ago so have no fear of stepping with BIAB.

In fact, one of the many advantages of BIAB is that you CAN control your temps well. In a traditional system you have to add hotter water or recirculate through a heater.

I reckon that BIAB has many advantages that are under-estimated. In fact, the only disadvantage to BIAB that I have been able to think of to date has been double-batching but Harry-Ramblrs and I have recently done it with no problems as have several others.

Spot ya,
Pat


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Hey guys.

Pat. To answer the question you asked in the BIAB register thread, but didn't get to asking here  

*The Dunk Sparge...*

I think a few BIABers are doing some variation of this. Spillsmostofit showed me how to do it and I only modified it a little because I wanted to alright...

Its a bit like the "modified" version of BIAB that I proposed back when we were arguing with DrK et al about L:G ratios etc etc.

When Spills does it (a least this is how I remember it) he adds to his original mash, only enough water for his *post*-boil volume and to account for grain absorbtion. He doesn't account for boil off.

After removing the bag and boiling, he will be a few litres short of his desired post boil volume because he has boiled it off. So he puts on the kettle in his kitchen, boils a few litres of water, throws it in a bucket and "dunks" in his grain bag. Thus he manages to squeeze a bit of sparge step into the process. The sparge goes into the kettle and viola he will now achieve his desired post boil volume.


When I did it, I took it a little further to partially test out my "modified" BIAB theory. I worked out the thermal mass of what would be left in my grain bag after it was pulled, drained and very lightly squeezed. Then I worked out how many litres of boiling water would be needed to raise that mass to a "sparge" temp of 78C. I subtracted that from my usual BIAB liquor volume.

I mashed in with the remainder of my volume, which actually left me with a far more "normal" L:G ratio of about 3.5 : 1

Because I have one, I boiled the sparge water in my HLT, dunk sparged the bag for a good 5 minutes, then squeezed. Added the sparge back into the boil kettle which had been heating up to the boil during the entire sparge process.

It seems to have eeked another 4 or 5 % efficiency out of the process for me. 89% (pre-boil) on my last batch.


If you dont have a HLT (which of course most BIABers dont) then you could try roughly this....

-Bring to the boil about 22 litres of water... transfer 10 litres into your fermentor (if its glass dont do this OK) wrap that puppy up in a few blankets so it stays hot. If you have NC cubes or other food grade buckets around the place, then you could use them, but BIAB _is_ partly about using less equipment so I'm going with gear I know you _must_ have.

-Add back to the boiling hot water in the ketttle, enough cold water to make up the amount you normally BIAB with _minus the 10 litres_. This should also be about 10litres. 12litres of boiling water plus 10litres of say 10C tap water should give you 22litres of 65C water. So thats about where you need to be.

-mash as per normal, pull and drain bag, stuff drained bag into fermentor with your hopefully still quite hot 10litres of sparge water, pull bag, drain, squeeze. Add sparge back to kettle.

Or even more simply, you could just sparge with the hottest water you can get out of your tap. If you aren't in the habit of carbon filtering your water, thats how I'd do it. If you do filter, then I suppose you could work it out somehow.


There you go.

Spills' way is the easiest and simplest. Mine is harder but gives a more comprehensive sparge and also takes the L:G ratio down to close to conventionally acceptable levels.

Me, I only did it for an experiment and because of the fact that by jiggling with the amount of sparge water, I can get a few extra litres of volume out of my small batch system. Mostly I probably wont bother and will just go with normal no-sparge BIAB. I prefer the simplicity and I am pretty happy with the 80% efficiency I am getting anyway.

Food for thought at any rate

Thirsty


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

It seems that most times the Thirsty Boy and I get together, a bottle or two gets emptied, so I can forgive him slight inaccuracies. He's pretty much correct with my Dunk Sparge(tm) process, except that I actually use a big kitchen saucepan on the stove for my sparge. The comparative volumes of my sparge water vary depending on my batch size - I started doing it with the big saucepan and used as much water as I could fit into it, so I was using less than my total losses throughout the balance of the process. For my nano-brews, wot he sez is spot on, so the comparative sparge volume is greater (and, ultimately, is my total extraction efficiency it turns out).

On the subject of burners, I think Mr Patch is correct. I love my electric immersion elements, but (until I finish building my computerised heater control dingus) I don't have the energy control that the nanobrews enjoy on the stovetop. The corollary to this is that the boil-off is much more predictable on my electric kit because I cannot fiddle with it.

No-Chillin'. Another topic, another thread, but I would recommend to anyone that does not have a chiller to give no-chilling a shot. I see the reasons for no-chilling as being quite similar to those for BIABing: it definitely works and if you choose to see it as a stepping stone to some other method, you've lost nothing during the journey. I disagree with Mr Patch on the issue of labour - I find that all the things you 'get for free' with no-chillin' make it a very easy technique: no whirlpooling - your break/trub settles to the bottom of the cube and stays out of the fermenter; you get some aeration of the wort as you tip it into your fermenter; your brewday is shorter.


----------



## PistolPatch

Haven't had a chance to properly read through Thirsty and Spills posts above. I've been doing long days and my last post here has been nagging at me...

On a re-read it sounds as though I'm anti-traditional brewing.

This would not be correct. More accurately, I'd have to say this would not be entirely correct.

Here's an example...

FNQBunyip and I are great mates and often talk on the phone and toss around brewing ideas. Bunyip has welders, an abundance of steel and often some free time.

At the last swap, someone said to him, '"You're not still BIABing are you?' Funnily enough, the bloke that said this was the one bloke who's same recipe I had BIAB brewed everyone thought tasted better than his!

The only other taste test we had proved BIAB at least equivalent - 'less astringent but slightly less body,'was the quote from the only person of 7 that could actually tast a difference!

Anyway, when someone says, ''Are you still BIABing?' it casts reasonable doubt over the practice.

This worries me....

It doesn't worry me in the case of Bunyip though....

He's a brewer that does things well and sensibly. He knows that I WANT him to try traditional brewing. He's had the seed of doubt casted but his plan is to test the traditional, at bugger-all expense, whilst maintaining his current brewing practices.

Bunyip has access to kettles not shaped like a Robinox pot and this is something I have always wondered about. How do you pull a bag out of a narrower opening than your vessell? 

My prediction for Bunyip is that he won't have to do that with traditional brewing!

I also know that he has not initention of giving up BIAB. The traditional side is an experiment. This is good.

Anyway, if you don't live out in the wilderness like Bunyip but have doubts about BIAB then the first thing you should do is go and watch another person's brew day. After that, hopefully you'll be mates and then you can take your BIAB gear around there and do a side-by-side.

When you can detect a favourable difference between the two beers you brew side-by-side then is the time you should think about changing brewing methods.

Anyway, it's been another long day.

By the way, does anyone when they see a newbee AGr enquire aboout mash tuns or whatever send them a PM referrring them to BIAB? A simple thing like that can save someone months and dollars on their AG journey.

I better go but I think the above para is worth bearing in mind.

Spot ya,
Pat


----------



## Hashie

Agree with you on the mash tun question Pat. I'm not sure why people think BIAB is not 'real' brewing, after all, at the end of the day BIAB and 3 vessel brewing all make wort for yeast to make beer. I would consider doing a 'traditional' brew, just to see how it compares. But I don't believe it would match the simplicity of BIAB.

As to getting a bag from a kettle with a small opening. I use a keggle, which has a smaller opening than it's ID and have never had any problems getting the bag out. Ensuring there are no burrs or sharp edges is a priority and having a small pulley helps no end. I will raise my bag above the wort, but still mostly in the keggle for a few minutes before raising it clear to drain.


----------



## Adzmax

Thanks for the added info PP, Very helpful


----------



## Ross

PistolPatch said:


> At the last swap, someone said to him, '"You're not still BIABing are you?' Funnily enough, the bloke that said this was the one bloke who's same recipe I had BIAB brewed everyone thought tasted better than his!
> 
> The only other taste test we had proved BIAB at least equivalent - 'less astringent but slightly less body,'was the quote from the only person of 7 that could actually tast a difference!
> Spot ya,
> Pat



Just to address a couple of points here  

It was me that spoke to Ned & my comment was, "I'm surprised with all your space & gear that you haven't tried doing a mash in the traditional way yet" Ned's reply was "well funnily you should say that, as I was just planning to do exactly that" (or words very similar). A little different to "you're not still BIABing are you?"
As you know, i'm a keen supporter of BIAB, I reckon it is a great way for someone to give AG brewing a go.
Having experienced both methods however, I've personally found the traditional method easier (once you understand the principals) & the results better. I've tasted some good BIAB brews, but still not a very good one. Please feel free to send me one you reckon is great for apprasial, as I'd love to be able to say different. This again is not meant as a slur on BIAB as maybe the same brewer would have not made the beer any better by "traditional" methods.

The "test test" you keep refering to needs a little clarification - It was on 2 beers that were both below par (yours & Brads words, not mine) in the first place & were given to brewers to taste, who were pretty well oiled before they drank them  . So really, as interesting as it was, it would be nice to see you do a side by side with an experienced brewer doing a tried & tested recipe, with a sober judging panel - This would give the results some credibility.

Anyway, it's competitition season now, so come on guys, get some BIAB brews into the comps & let's see how they fair - I for one would be delighted if they do well. 

Cheers & long live BIAB :super: 


Ross


----------



## Fents

PistolPatch said:


> *CHILLERS* Mmmmm. I know nothing of no-chilling. Everything else though sounds too labour-intensive.



Says he who lifts 5+KG of grain out of a pot h34r:


----------



## kook

It'd be interesting to propose the same test be run again, with the following parameters:

- A really simple beer. 100% Pale malt, ~ 25 IBU of noble hops @ 60 mins
- Same water, malt, hops, clarifiers, yeast - All from the same supplier and pack or batch number.
- Calibrated thermometers
- Identical Batch size & fermenter geometry
- Both in the same Fermentation fridge
- All post fermentation handling the same (Bottled same day, same priming rates, same equipment, etc)

Then send the beers off to Hugh Dunn & Roger Bussell. Could also run a blind tasting at the West Coast Brewers meeting. Could even send to other homebrew or tasting clubs for evaluation.

I'd be up for doing something along these lines, but I'm busy till late October at the moment.


----------



## Kingy

Ive done a few BIAB's and it is a starting point to venture into AG. All my beers have shat all over all the k+kbeers and extract brews bah 1 ive done. But i do find that the beers dont have enough body. It almost gets there but not quite. i also feel like i am cheating,but it still is exceptionally good beer.

I think going down the traditional way of brewing path i will have more control over my beer,i will actually own a proper brewery (bling), and im sure the beer will be better again. As its the next step up that im going to take.

I dont care how long it takes or how much washing up i have to do as that dont bother me. Therez a lot more information out there on the traditional way and this will help me a great deal.

Thats just how i see it and taste it.

But for know i keep BIAB'in untill i decide to lash out and take the next step.

cheers kingy


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

kook said:


> It'd be interesting to propose the same test be run again, with the following parameters:
> 
> - A really simple beer. 100% Pale malt, ~ 25 IBU of noble hops @ 60 mins
> - Same water, malt, hops, clarifiers, yeast - All from the same supplier and pack or batch number.
> - Calibrated thermometers
> - Identical Batch size & fermenter geometry
> - Both in the same Fermentation fridge
> - All post fermentation handling the same (Bottled same day, same priming rates, same equipment, etc)
> 
> Then send the beers off to Hugh Dunn & Roger Bussell. Could also run a blind tasting at the West Coast Brewers meeting. Could even send to other homebrew or tasting clubs for evaluation.
> 
> I'd be up for doing something along these lines, but I'm busy till late October at the moment.


Id be up for the tasting panel B) I have tried some of Pistols BIABs and could not find any deficiencies except we ran out.  But yes a side by side would be fun.But as we know no two beers will ever be the same.Nore will two brewers results.Thats the great thing about brewing at home.So many variables.
Cheers 
Gryphon Brewing


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Kingy said:


> Ive done a few BIAB's and it is a starting point to venture into AG. All my beers have shat all over all the k+kbeers and extract brews bah 1 ive done. But i do find that the beers dont have enough body. It almost gets there but not quite. i also feel like i am cheating,but it still is exceptionally good beer.
> 
> I think going down the traditional way of brewing path i will have more control over my beer,i will actually own a proper brewery (bling), and im sure the beer will be better again. As its the next step up that im going to take.
> 
> I dont care how long it takes or how much washing up i have to do as that dont bother me. Therez a lot more information out there on the traditional way and this will help me a great deal.
> 
> Thats just how i see it and taste it.
> 
> But for know i keep BIAB'in untill i decide to lash out and take the next step.
> 
> cheers kingy



I dunno Kingy,

I agree with a fair few of your points there, and certainly aren't going to discourage you from brewing in whatever way you want.

But I'm not sure that you are actually going to find any significantly greater level of control nor of quality, if you change from BIAB to a mashtun setup. I brew both ways and just aren't finding that there really are insoluable deficiencies in either technique.

In your specific case, what I suspect (dont know for certain of course) is that you could certainly solve your lack of body problem from within the BIAB method. I certainly dont have a problem with lack of body in BIAB brews, and neither do the BIABs I have tasted from other brewers, so its not BIAB per se that is causing the issue. Its just an issue in your brewing that you need to work out how to fix. Exactly the same thing _might_ happen to you if you were brewing on a completely traditional set-up.

I think that one of the problems with BIAB being perceived as a temporary phase of an AG brewer's career, is the fact that it just doesn't cost enough time and or effort to do. As you said, people feel a bit like they are cheating.

And because its sort of a new technique, when people encounter an issue, its far to easy to blame it on the BIAB and decide to switch... whereas if you had just spent a few hundred dollars and a lot of hours assembling a trad set-up. Your thoughts would be more likely to go along the lines of "well, I know that this is able to be made to work, so I better work out what I am doing wrong and fix it..." plus there is all the time and money that its cost you, to give you motivation to keep on trying rather than toss it all in the nearest dumpmaster.

I know this feeling all too well. I have the said "several hundred dollars" worth of 3 vessel system... and every time I do a BIAB, I look over at my mashtun etc and wonder why the hell it is, that the next time I do a full batch of beer I will be doing it on the the 3 vessel. I know for a fact that its just because I cant stand the thought of all the time, effort and money I sank into the bloody thing having been a waste... 

If the bags cost $200.00 and you had to make the same level of blind commitment to set up a BIAB rig as you do to set up a traditional rig, I'm guessing that there would be at least one or two people who have currently given up BIAB, that would have kept on experimenting till they worked out the things that made them swap in the first place.

Of course in your case Kingy, you have listed a couple of "other" perfectly valid reason for wanting to change. As I said I'm certainly not going to try to talk you out of it. I just think that you might be expecting some things that you either aren't going to get.. or that you could have gotten anyway with the system you already have and a bit more experience.

However, if a while down the track you do decide to swap from BIAB to a 3 vessel... drop me a note, I may well have a perfectly serviceable HERMS up for sale by then.  

Cheers

Thirsty


----------



## PistolPatch

OMG! I"ve just had an email from Bunyip thet he has ordered not only a false bottom but a March Pump as well!!!!! LOL!!!

The Northern Bunyip wil not fail us I know.

Looking forward to the pics Ned.

Spot ya,
Pat


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

Hey Pat better read the email again Mate!!!

The March pump will be a few weeks /months away yet.. LOL 

The pics will be worth the wait though as I have some interesting ideas that i'mm working on.. 


Thanks for your post Thirsty, I think you might of hit a few points on the head. A diferant system is still not going to make better beer if your a shit brewer too start with... 

My wanting to build a traditional system/ brewery is not because of any problems or percived problems with my beers both Brew Wench and I can't get enough. 
Its more a case of wanting to build a BREWERY not just a beer maker.. 

Sure the kettle and maccona make coffee but hell one of them expreesso machines sure looks& sounds good but how often do you find that the pimpley faced prick behind the counter can't drive it anyway and the maccona would of been just as good..

If it wasen't for BIAB I would still be thinking about it and drinking K+K . I belive that I will probly still brew up a few BIAB to keep stocks up but am looking forward to a full on stuck sparge, missed mash temp and what ever else can go wrong.. LOL

Settle down Pat I'm not dumping you mate..

edit: The FB is here ..LOL
Cheers Ned


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## Kingy

Never had anyone complain of my beer and theyd much prefer to drink my beer than most beer from the bottleshops. The main reason for me is to have a "brewery" as well. The body problem aint a big issue well im not even sure that the body in the beers ive made is a problem.My beers dont taste like water so im not sure. My beers taste great. Maybe i need some more hops added tho. Im still learning so im not fussed. And i will always be learning. 
Dont know any other brewers to taste my beer either.

I dont like lagers and thats all ive been able to brew with the weather so far. 

Looking forward to trying some ales soon.

Dont get me wrong BIAB is a great thing and they do taste great.But i think if im wanting to do a lot of differant styles with differant mash shedules the traditional way is the go.

And yeah owning a 3 vessel system will make my beer taste mentally better. And it will look better in the shed.(bling) money aint a problem either.

cheers
kingy


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## jimmysuperlative

I'm convinced that BIAB produces beer of quality ...my mates (and my inability to stop at just one) tell me so!
I can understand how the "bling factor" would influence many a brewers decision to "upgrade" to a 3-vessel/traditional setup.
...and it makes it easier to follow the conversation when brewers use terms and refer to methods (particularly for new brewers).

However, I have assembled the necessary gear ...stainless vessels, burner, plumbing etc ...and could probably give traditional/regular AG brewing a burl tomorrow!
...BUT, I haven't!!! And the bottom line is that BIAB is too easy! :beerbang: 
Less gear, less steps, less time, less space etc... GREAT BEER!!!! why would I pollute the process with extra gear/time/space/etc ?

The only reason I can see for ramping up my system (and it's a very real argument for me) is batch size.
...And I know there are BIAB brewers out there who have already overcome this problem ...so maybe I'll never fire up a 3-vessel AG brew, but I do admit it still feels good to know its all there if I ever decide to!  

So, boys and girls, tell us how you double batch BIAB ...or DBBIAB for short :lol:


----------



## PistolPatch

I know I've missed a couple of comments/questions that need replying above on taste tests and comps but I'll do that tomorrow. (Glad to hear you're not dumoping me though Ned and am posting my beers to you tomorrow as I have the day off )

Good to hear from you jummy :super: 

The double-batching is easy. The last brews Harry did on our equip had around 10 kilos of grain. Normally for a 23 litre brew of that beer I'd add 37lts of water. In this case, we were going for a 42 litre batch so we needed to add around 70 litres to the pot which is a little problem as our kettles are 70 litres.

Harry threw in about 55litres I think to mash in with and then just added the exttra water needed during the boil. All worked out OK.

The bag is certainly strong enough to hold the 10kilos of grain and be lifted. Of course, in this case you really need the skyhook. We have the skyhook with a single pulley and a cleat so that the bag can be gradually pulled up and drained. This works very well.

Great to hear you're enjoying the beers mate. Looks like we'll have to get some in the comps but more on that tomorrow.

Spot ya Jimmy and love your post,
Pat


----------



## Darren

Pat and other BIAB converts,

I am wondering if you actually need to remove the grain at all?

Anyone tried boiling all the mash and fermenting?

Might end up a brilliantly clear, full bodied beer.


Worth a try if anyone is game.


cheers

Darren


----------



## eric8

jimmysuperlative said:


> I can understand how the "bling factor" would influence many a brewers decision to "upgrade" to a 3-vessel/traditional setup.



If you want 3 vessels, then why mot just do BIAB in all 3. That way you get your bling and 3 same or different types of beer.  
I am thinking of getting another vessel, thats nice and shiny, but only to do more biab in. I agree with Jimmy, it's just so much easier.
Eric


----------



## paterson2929

Being new to this forum I usually just read it for info rather than interact in posts.
When I first got onto this forum I read the posts on AG and it looked all too daunting.
After reading the guide to BIAB I thought Hey, thats doesn't look to hard.
After several hundred dollars worth of gear and seven batches I can safely say I am not doing anything other than BIAB now, the days of K+K are over.
The beer tastes astronomically better. I have since purchased a half kilo of yeast, 100kg of various base grains, 10kg of specialty grains and plenty of hops.
Now I don't have to go the shops anymore and can make beer whenever I want.
I can't see myself going for the traditional method because of 

1. Space
2. More money for equipment
3. BIAB produces great results

Having not tasted many other peoples HB's I could be biased, but my beer shits all over
the commercial stuff and I am more than satisfied.
All I want to do now is experiment with recipes.
Thats my 2 cents
Happy Brewing
:beerbang:


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## SpillsMostOfIt

I believe that BIAB can be scaled upwards about as large as is likely in a homebrew environment. The only issue seems to be bag size/strength. 

I think the first thing to give way on a normal BIAB bag will be the stitching. Simple solution to the whole bag strength thing is to use a bloddy big colander or cage to support the bag, or have an outer bag of (say) inert plastic shade cloth - the seams of which can be bonded more strongly. Rent a small mobile crane, get your mates around and see how much grain you can lift.

It seems that extraction efficiency will suffer as the gravity of the beer you're making increases. This isn't a BIAB issue, it is an issue common to any brewing method, but it is harder to solve if you constrain yourself to a single vessel and don't want to reach higher gravities through extended boil times. I am addressing this with a second vessel which I am using to 'dunk' sparge, which should give me extraction efficiencies similar to batch sparging (because that is all it is really).

At this point, I might expect someone to chime in with a comment along the lines of "You're just an esky away from proper brewing." Perhaps so, but I *like* brewing this way and I would have a different definition of 'proper'.

Someone else might assert that it is not possible to make as good beer without firm, well-rounded grain-beds ( :blink: ), pumps and a tig-welded brew-frame. I reckon that if you know how to brew, you can make good beer in almost anything that will hold water. I would argue that every fault in my beer can be traced back to a mistake on my part rather than the kit I've used.

Disclaimer: This rant was sponsored by Spotlight, WestFarmers and Kennards...


----------



## dan_pilbara

Looking at doing my first BIAB as my grain bill is starting to get too big for my partial set up. The equipment i have is a 40L and 10L urn. Questions are can i put a weldless thermometer through the side of he big urn or will this pierce the bag? Where is the jury on using a bucket and sparging? I have a small roll of SS mesh could i use this to make the basket or will the mesh size be too large?

Thanks Dan


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

dan_pilbara said:


> Looking at doing my first BIAB as my grain bill is starting to get too big for my partial set up. The equipment i have is a 40L and 10L urn. Questions are can i put a weldless thermometer through the side of he big urn or will this pierce the bag? Where is the jury on using a bucket and sparging? I have a small roll of SS mesh could i use this to make the basket or will the mesh size be too large?
> 
> Thanks Dan



I've been struggling for a while with how to do the thermometer thing as you suggest and haven't come up a solution. I expect the probe would foul the bag and possibly poke a hole in it, while giving you the temperature at the probe, which may not be the balance of the mash. For now, I think the manual probe held in the mash as you stir it with your spoon/paddle/potato-masher is the go.

I reckon that for your first brew, keep it simple and don't bother sparging. You won't notice the difference in efficiencies and will have a more enjoyable day.

In my thinking about mesh baskets, they would be in addition to the Swiss Voille to provide structural integrity for very big batches - not instead of it. The current common understanding is that you want to keep as many solids out of your boil as possible (theoretically right down to flour) and a fine mesh as provided by the curtain material does this reasonably well (with the exception of the flour, but now I'm being too pedantic).

HTH...


----------



## PistolPatch

Just to address some of the prior comments on taste tests, comps, side by sides and no-chill...

*The First Side by Side Taste Test*

Ross mentioned that everyone was pretty well-oiled on the first side by side test. Ross could be forgiven for thinking this as he arrived a t the swap very early to help out and therefore got a head-start on everyone else. In fact though, most of the people that did that test, did it on a clean palate - at least 5 and the rest certainly were not well-oiled. We sort of didn't want anyone that had had too many doing the test. In other words, that test was very valid.

*Future Side by Sides*

I'm up for doing more side by sides on the condition that someone organises transport to and from my place  It's more fun if you can have abeer whilst you brew. The side by side I did with hughman cost me a fortune - well over two hundred dollars. That's a long story and we spent so long crushing grain that we by the time we started brewing, our skills had dropped somewhat. And then, hughman drank all his beer so we couldn't even compare them - lol!!! The one with Doogiechap went really well except for one major flaw that we didn't realise until the end. The water he used was filtered whereas mine wasn't. Anyway, we do boith have some of that kolsch left which we can have a comparison taste of but with the water stuff-up we won't be able to draw any conclusions.

Suffice to say that doing a side by side involves a fair bit from the bloke doing the travelling but if someone can fix that side of things for me then I'll always be prepared to load my gear up.

Good idea Kook on the sending the results off to West Coast or the likes for some triangular tasting. (Hope the new house is going well and hopefully we can do a brew together once you get settled. I reckon hughman should drive me - lol!)

The other alternative for anyone over here to do a side by side is to come to my place where I have access to both traditional and BIAB equip. We could do a brew on each set of equip.

*Competitions*

OK, I'll whack a few beers in. I'm going to ask Neville from Gryphon Brewing to help me out here as I have no idea on what beers of mine will be to style and how to enter them. He has lots of experience in that area and has done well in comps before. He also has extensive brewing education and experience so this will certainly be of invaluable assistance to me. Hope you can help me out Neville :unsure: 

*No Chilling*

I better expand on my comment on no chilling made last week. When I said it sounds like hard work or whatever, what I meant was that if your aim is to get the beer fermenting asap and you can afford a chiller then this is less work than racking to a cube and then pitching later on. Of course, there are so many variations on no-chill and not all of them involve the cube step. If not, then the work wouldn't be too much. However, I don't know much about the no-chill, no-cube method :blink: so feel free to correct me on this.

And don't worry Fents, it's only poor buggers like me that have nowhere for a skyhook that have to lift the bag out manually. Mind you it takes less than a minute so it's no big deal. There's no way I'd do a double-batch that way though unless I was Grant Kenny!

Have just sent those beers to you Ned and I also have sent Batz a few including that elusive altbier. Looking forward to seeing whether Batz thinks it's right or not.

Spot ya,
Pat


----------



## wrightyman

Looking to get back into AG after 3yrs,This sound like a easy way to begin.Have only read a few postings,Have a few questons if anyone can help.What size bag?Are they easy available.Do you have to sparge?

Wrightyman


----------



## Fents

Love ya work PP, Grant Kenny got nothing on you mate.

Yo Pat, everytime you sign a post (Spot ya, Pat) i spin out...Your not from NZ are you?

Theres a double meaning to Spot Ya i've known for a long time and everytime you post it i have a good chuckle imagining you firing up the stove and hot knifes 

Next time the spots are on your PP! 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spots


----------



## Darren

PP, I am a bit disappointed that you did not comment on the idea of not using a bag and boiling the whole damn lot. Anyone want to comment on the idea?

cheers

Darren


----------



## PistolPatch

Sorry Darren - I'm slipping . I'm actually running behind on my replies to this thread as a lot of guys have written some excellent stuff in the last few days I reckon.

Though your idea would save pulling the bag out until the kettle is drained which could be an advantage, wouldn't it result in huge astringency problems? From what I understand as soon as you go over 78 degrees you start to extract tannins. If so, this unfortunately stuffs this idea. Oh well!!!

Have really enjoyed reading the posts above. So many great points have been made.

Without looking back through the posts, I think one point that should be emphasised is one that Kingy made. Kingy, from now on I am calling you King Bling!!!

Kingy, you mentioned that, psychologically, your beers will taste better if you brew traditionally. As Thirsty pointed oput, this is probably far truer than you realise now, But, you have doubts and there is nothing that will remove those at this stage. This can be a good thing though...

The first good thing is that you are excited about spending more money on brewing and learning more. You can't beat that. The trick is how to go about it sensibly.

I was chatting to Ned today and he is using the same vessel for HLT, mash tun and kettle, This is the sensible way to go if you are able. Why? Because as Eric says if traditional brewing makes no diffrence, you'll be able to do 3 BIAB brews simultaneously in those vessels without much extra expense - a few burners.

Unless you already have an esky Kingy, you should really consider using a pot as your mash tun. You live in a cold climate most of the year and if you use an esky, your mash temp will drop by at least 3 degrees in a 90 minute mash. The only two ways to correct this are by adding more hot water (which is bloody difficult to get right) or by using an immersion heater. If you us e apot however, you can just add a little more heat with your burner - simple.

I think I read that you have only brewed lagers so far. These to me and many others can be a little dissapointing. Surely you can find somehwere in your house that stays at around 15 degrees at least? If so, do Tony's kolsch or the all amarillo ale. These are lovely beers.

Tony's kolsch beats any lager I have tasted to date and would make a suitable lager 'clone.' My palate likes really well-balance not overly-bitter beers which are harder to brew than 'over the top' beers.

If you have to keep going with lagers for now then raise your mash temp by two degrees on your next one and see how you go.

And, King Bling , I think BIAB still has a lot of bling to be added to it yet. So much so that I'm going to start a new thread on BIAB Bling Ideas. Once written. Here it is!

Looking forward to a beer in the Blue Mountains with your Kingy whether it be traditional or BIAB.

Spot ya,
Pat

P.S. Fents, I'd forgotten about your post!!! Now WTF is the double meaning to Spot Ya. You have me really worried! I thought it just meant spot ya later or spot ya later on (ron). See you learn something new here every day!


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Darren said:


> Pat and other BIAB converts,
> 
> I am wondering if you actually need to remove the grain at all?
> 
> Anyone tried boiling all the mash and fermenting?
> 
> Might end up a brilliantly clear, full bodied beer.
> Worth a try if anyone is game.
> cheers
> 
> Darren



Sorry Darren, I would have commented but haven't read this thread for a day or so.

I think that would make it a bit like a wash from whiskey production?? Not sure but dont they boil the grain and all?

And I belive that some of the african "ancient" style beers involved boiling and also fermenting with the grain. Then just drinkning the whole lot straight from the fermentor through a reed and a wad of scruched up plant fibers as a filter.

So it would certainly make beer. Dont know if the boil would extract tannins from the grain... I know that it doesn't particularly when you do a decoction, but I think the ph might change enough throughout a full length boil so that it could be a problem.. or does the ph go the other way during the boil, I forget. I also suspect that there would be starch haze... the last of the starch in the grain bashed into solubility by a lengthy boil, but no enzymes to convert it.

And you'd have to separate your wort from grain eventually, unless you want to ferment with the grain as well, so I suspect that before the boil is an easier place to do it than post boil. Although conducting something akin to a re-circ / lauter step would certainly get rid of any hop/break/trub from your wort.

What the hell... I just did a BIAB, no-boil, partially no-chill nano batch of Berliner weiss that I deliberately infected with lacto bugs..... If I can make something that way off the charts... then I can try a nano batch with the grain still in. I'll do it for the team !!

Care to suggest a style?

Thirsty


----------



## PistolPatch

Oh Thirsty, someone has to do it! I reckon a normal style - a pale ale or something?

Are you seriously prepared top have a crack Thirsty? I would have thought that it would all just be wrong?

Crikey! If it is a possibility this will really have me scratching my head though as yet, I'm not too certain of the advantages :unsure: 

Spot!

P.S. And excuse all my melling listakes in my last post. I have a new keyboard that I'm not used to as yet.


----------



## Darren

Thirsty, Pat,

All the tannins and unconverted starch may just make this wort crystal clear

Biggest problem I can see is scorching of the grain.

Pat, the advantage is - You dont need a bag!

Pale ale would be a good style to test.

cheers

Darren


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Darren said:


> Thirsty, Pat,
> 
> All the tannins and unconverted starch may just make this wort crystal clear
> 
> Biggest problem I can see is scorching of the grain.
> 
> Pat, the advantage is - You dont need a bag!
> 
> Pale ale would be a good style to test.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



Dunno about tannins and unconverted starch making anything crystal clear.... and even if it is it may well taste horrible.

Might not need a bag... but how am I going to separate the grains out post boil?? I shall probably use a colander lined with a filter cloth... for which I will just use my "bag" I suppose a colander and a bit of cheesecloth is easier than a bag... but not a lot. I dont see it as a huge advantage... marginal at best.

But... rather than conject, I shall give it a go. Not gonna get scientific and do controls, calibration and all that guff, But I will split the wort into two halves... same mash. half boiled with half the grain, half normally (BIAB) lautered. Then I will assemble a tasting panel and we will do some triangles.

Fair ?? Not gonna happen in the next week or so though, I've brewed twice this week already and have neither the motivation nor the fermentors to brew again very soon.

Thirsty


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

Thirsty Boy said:


> ... I've brewed twice this week already and have neither the motivation nor the fermentors to brew again very soon.



And *that* is what's wrong with young people today...


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Transferring an argument to the thread I think it belongs in...




jayse said:


> The main thing put forward to this is trying to tell people BIAB is the easiest and best way to start your first brew because you only need a kettle and a bag instead of a 3 vessel system as if there is nowhere in between the two.
> 
> Say you start with a kettle then the choice is yours should you get a bag made up or a mashtun because either one is all you need.
> For using a mash tun you can heat your liquor in your kettle and hold it in your fermentor or any old bucket while your draining the wort into the kettle etc, everyones clearly got a fermentor ready.
> 
> So given this it is simply a choice between hey should I sew up a bag or build a mashtun. The arguement is the bag is cheaper and easier but infact you can make a mashtun for pretty much next to nothing. I just scored two 20L mayo buckets from a hotel for nothing and drilled holes in the bottom of one and sat it inside and put a couple dollar tap on the bottom one. So all it costs was a couple dollars.
> 
> I think it should be fairly clear which method would be the better and easier of the two.
> 
> I'am not trying to say here BIAB is no good at all I'am simply trying say building a mashtun doesn't need to be anymore costly or harder and that you don't need anymore equipment than that.
> A mayo bucket with holes drill everywhere could possibly make a good basket for this BIAB idea but using it as a mashtun would be the direction I would advise.



Jayse. I have only one issue with what you have said above.... this

_"I think it should be fairly clear which method would be the better and easier of the two."_

You are right, it is _clear to me_, the bag would be the easier and better of the two. 

My understanding is that bucket in bucket lauter tuns are not particularly good, they work, but they are far from the best lauter tun option you could choose. I certainly dont know this for sure having never used one, but there aren't very many brewers who dont upgrade from the bucket in a bucket fairly quickly upon getting the chance. Or are _you_ planning to swap to using the buckets you scored and converted into a mash tun, as your primary wort separation method? 

Whereas I beleive the bags work very effectively and wont require upgrading unless you want to go bigger, or they wear out.

However, I dont think that's what you meant. I suspect you meant that its fairly clear that the buckets would be easier and better than the bag......

*Easier -* well, I say that thats debatable. The bag is certainly easier to _use_ than a mash tun. To build, dunno, could go either way I reckon - its certainly easier to get your wife to sew your bag, than to have to personally drill hundreds of holes in a bucket - but that might be cheating I suppose. As for cheap.... couple of bucks for a tap, couple of bucks for some cloth... I'd call it a tie.

*Better -* this is where I really have the issue. Why?? Why is the bucket better? You say it is as though its self evident, but its not. You haven't provided so much as one single reason why. *WHY ????*


*MAH -* I dont think anyone is painting a mashtun as a disadvantage. Mash tuns are obviously great bits of gear that work fantastically well. If you have one already.

I agree that an eski/hose braid MT isn't all that hard or expensive to build... its just that i think it is harder and more expensive than the bag. And then _if_ you decide that you want to move on from the bag to an MT... you have really only wasted a few bucks on material, and you can always re-sew it into hop socks, wort strainers etc etc if you want to be truly stingy

As you said, no one is saying that BIAB will make better beer than a trad system. I think we all started out with the expectation that it would actually be at least a little inferior as a method, a compromise between space, money, time, effort - and a measure of quality.

But as more and more BIAB beer has been produced; it just doesn't seem to be working out that way. The beers pretty much seem to be on a par with the ones produced by all the other methods... there are still a couple of question marks about very long term stability... but thats about the only issue I can think of that might still be outstanding on the quality front. I might be wrong, but thats my understanding of the situation.

So, from my perspective

*Mash tun* based systems can be reasonably cheap and easy to make, not all that hard to learn and use; and are a great system for producing excellent beer..... But

*BIAB* based systems are even cheaper and easier to make, even easier to learn and use; and are a great system for producing excellent beer.

So to me, I think that I would be doing a prospective new brewer a disservice by not pointing out to them, that this was an option they should consider.

Actually, I dont really even recall (I may just be stupid though) a time when someone has in any significant way tried to dissuade a new brewer from going with a trad system. I've seen plenty of "what gear do I need to go AG" questions answered with a "have you considered starting with BIAB" and pointing out the advantages. But thats no more mash tun bashing; than suggesting a batch & braid system would be having a crack at sparge ring and false bottom rigs...

Basically I cant see what is wrong with people offering genuine advice or opinion on different methods for brewing... no matter which one. If you think your method is better, advise them to try yours instead "its better because....."

Thirsty


----------



## PistolPatch

Oh Thirsty! I'm so happy I started the BIAB Bling thread  

Thanks for your sensible and courageous posts there mate. Your fingers must be worn out!

Here's my response as to some reasons why people should think twice before they advise that a mash tun system is easier, just as cheap or better than BIAB.

1. *All of Thirsty's Reasons* above and the many others that have been written about elsewhere in this thread or the forum.
2. *Building a Mash Tun* is not as easy as people make out for many novice brewers unless they have someone to help them along. Understanding the principles of a mash tun can be a very confusing, contradictory subject to learn about. It is often expensive as well. As Thirsty said, not many people stay thrilled with the bucket in bucket system and so you need an esky, a tap mechanism and a manifold. THe manifold is one area that gets very confusing due to the high amount of conflicting advice.
3. *Mash Tun Temperature:* To correct the temp in a mash tun system requires either very expensive pumping and heating mechanisms, an immersion element or cheapest of all, adding hotter water which can be a tricky thing to judge. With BIAB, you just add some flame for a minute or so and therefore can easily keep things accurate at zero expense.
4. *Tiers or Levels:* This is a major factor that no proponent of mash tuns has mentioned in the bling thread. It is VERY major. Jayse's idea of just having a 2 vessel system and using the fermenter to fill the gaps, ignores just how big those gaps are. How do you transfer the hot water from your kettle into the HLT? How do you transfer the mash from HLT to fermenter? How do you transfer wort from fermenter into the kettle to be boiled? You'll certainly want at least silicone hosing but you are now looking at 5 syphonings per brew instead of just one as you get with BIAB. THat's a MAJOR gaps. You are also going to either have to lift the vessel to a height that can be syphoned or create or build 3 levels on which to brew on unless you want to buy a pump. Taps and stands cost money. The end result tis still going to be a more complex and harder to operate system.
5. *Sparging Knowledge:* Once again this is a major hurdle for the novice brewer. The advice out there is often poor and/or conflicting. A novice even before getting their head around the spargiing process has to understand the difference between fly and batch-sparging and then know enough about them to be able to work out if people's advice refers to batch or fly.

Of course I could write a lot more and I and many others have written more before. But surely what Thirsty has written and the above though are enough to prevent the thinking brewer from writing some of the things that have been written in the bling thread?

Going to write some more here now but as it is a few different subjects, I'll put it in a separate post.

Spot,
Pat


----------



## PistolPatch

*Darren's Proposal*

Thirsty, where Darren says you won't need the bag in his proposal, I'd say that what you would do is treat the end of the boil as one big batch-sparge. In other words, drain some wort off until it becomes clear, tip it back in the kettle and drain slowly.

I must say I'm not real confident in what the beer would taste like but I'd love to see the test. I mean maybe it will taste alright? Could it?



wrightyman said:


> Looking to get back into AG after 3yrs,This sound like a easy way to begin.Have only read a few postings,Have a few questons if anyone can help.What size bag?Are they easy available.Do you have to sparge?
> 
> Wrightyman



Sorry Wrighty. It looks as though your question got a little lost.

I reckon what you will need to do is download the BIABBooklet that you can get from Post #1 of this thread. It has lots of lics and will answer all your questions. You'll also need to read the first line of the first post as it will direct you to one major correction to the guide.

I trust this will give you all your answers plus a lot more.



dan_pilbara said:


> Looking at doing my first BIAB as my grain bill is starting to get too big for my partial set up. The equipment i have is a 40L and 10L urn. Questions are can i put a weldless thermometer through the side of he big urn or will this pierce the bag? Where is the jury on using a bucket and sparging? I have a small roll of SS mesh could i use this to make the basket or will the mesh size be too large?
> 
> Thanks Dan



Looks like some of your questions got missed too Dan. I'm all written out here now but have sent you a PM that should help.

Cheers
Pat


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

PistolPatch said:


> *Darren's Proposal*
> 
> Thirsty, where Darren says you won't need the bag in his proposal, I'd say that what you would do is treat the end of the boil as one big batch-sparge. In other words, drain some wort off until it becomes clear, tip it back in the kettle and drain slowly.
> 
> I must say I'm not real confident in what the beer would taste like but I'd love to see the test. I mean maybe it will taste alright? Could it?
> Sorry Wrighty. It looks as though your question got a little lost.
> 
> I reckon what you will need to do is download the BIABBooklet that you can get from Post #1 of this thread. It has lots of lics and will answer all your questions. You'll also need to read the first line of the first post as it will direct you to one major correction to the guide.
> 
> I trust this will give you all your answers plus a lot more.
> Looks like some of your questions got missed too Dan. I'm all written out here now but have sent you a PM that should help.
> 
> Cheers
> Pat


Slightly OT. Personally I cant wait to see my first BIAB done by you Biabers.Beware I will pick the sh.t out of your processes. As an expierienced brewer I find any inovation too tempting to miss.You never know I may try one myself but with my own slant (hessian sack maybe).Keep the bag clean and treat the knockers mean.All in fun.  Cheers Gryphon brewing


----------



## jayse

I really didn't want to get into this argument but it looks like its a bit late for that so I'll make a final parting post and bow out and quite happily be thought the dude in the wrong.

This post has nothing at all to do with BIAB at all its a post about how brewing is not as hard as Pat would have you believe.



PistolPatch said:


> Here's my response as to some reasons why people should think twice before they advise that a mash tun system is easier, just as cheap or better than BIAB.
> 
> 2. *Building a Mash Tun* is not as easy as people make out for many novice brewers unless they have someone to help them along. Understanding the principles of a mash tun can be a very confusing, contradictory subject to learn about. It is often expensive as well. As Thirsty said, not many people stay thrilled with the bucket in bucket system and so you need an esky, a tap mechanism and a manifold. THe manifold is one area that gets very confusing due to the high amount of conflicting advice.



I'am not starting to think twice yet.
Its maybe thoughts like this that make it sound like its confusing, conflicting and contradictory. Its not rocket science.
Most novice brewers are maybe getting there heads around this for the first time but its not the first time they have had to use their brains.
It seems your trying to actually make it sound more difficult than it is on purpose to help your arguement.

The how to brew books or online have all the information needed on mashtun design etc plus more and is written by a well respected member of the brewer community.




PistolPatch said:


> 3. *Mash Tun Temperature:* To correct the temp in a mash tun system requires either very expensive pumping and heating mechanisms, an immersion element or cheapest of all, adding hotter water which can be a tricky thing to judge. With BIAB, you just add some flame for a minute or so and therefore can easily keep things accurate at zero expense.



Don't forget we all had to get degrees in rocket science which cost quite a lot :unsure: 
Again your trying to make it sound more of a drama than it really needs to be.



PistolPatch said:


> 4. *Tiers or Levels:* This is a major factor that no proponent of mash tuns has mentioned in the bling thread. It is VERY major. Jayse's idea of just having a 2 vessel system and using the fermenter to fill the gaps, ignores just how big those gaps are. How do you transfer the hot water from your kettle into the HLT?



How do BIABers get the wort from the kettle into the fermentor? well do the same thing for this.



PistolPatch said:


> How do you transfer the mash from HLT to fermenter?



why would the mash be in the HLT and why would you want to put it straight into the fermentor?



PistolPatch said:


> How do you transfer wort from fermenter into the kettle to be boiled?



Thats a bit backwards the wort goes from the kettle into the fermentor and would be the exact same way as you do it for BIAB.




PistolPatch said:


> You'll certainly want at least silicone hosing



You only need one piece.



PistolPatch said:


> ......but you are now looking at 5 syphonings per brew instead of just one as you get with BIAB. THat's a MAJOR gaps. You are also going to either have to lift the vessel to a height that can be syphoned or create or build 3 levels on which to brew on unless you want to buy a pump. Taps and stands cost money. The end result tis still going to be a more complex and harder to operate system.



You'd only need two levels, everyone I know has the first level sorted the ground! Second level can be anything from the BBQ, old table, back of the ute. I don't know buts it not to hard to work out.
Don't you need that anyway to BIAB to get the wort into the fermentor?
Theres no real major extra lifting anything but I'am not about to explain how to brew from the start to finish right here. Hey wait don't you need to lift for BIAB? actually to the point your thinking of setting up a skyhook.



PistolPatch said:


> 5. *Sparging Knowledge:* Once again this is a major hurdle for the novice brewer. The advice out there is often poor and/or conflicting. A novice even before getting their head around the spargiing process has to understand the difference between fly and batch-sparging and then know enough about them to be able to work out if people's advice refers to batch or fly.



Your really trying your hardest.
I don't see how learning about sparging which can be summed up in a couple paragraphs is any different than learning about BIABing.
Do your mash, drain add your needed water then drain again, simple.
major hurdle? hardly
advice often poor and/ or conflicting? never found that to be true. Its quite simple, nothing like you try and make it out to be.



PistolPatch said:


> Of course I could write a lot more


Of course you could.



PistolPatch said:


> But surely what Thirsty has written and the above though are enough to prevent the thinking brewer from writing some of the things that have been written in the bling thread?



What thirsty has said is great, he's not trying to tell people that novice brewers are stupid and that traditional brewing is harder than it actually is like you are.


prevent the thinking brewer from...............
This is a internet forum and I'am always right  
I'am not even knocking BIAB I'am knocking the way you seem to think traditional brewing is something no novice brewer could possibly get there head around.
BIAB clearly has less equipment less steps etc and I have no problem with the all in one brewery ideas but you don't have to make all these exhagerations on how complex traditional brewing actually is to try and sell your ideas.

Anyway I'am quite happy to bow out of this arguement and be wrong, don't really care.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

jayse said:


> I really didn't want to get into this argument but it looks like its a bit late for that so I'll make a final parting post and bow out and quite happily be thought the dude in the wrong.
> 
> This post has nothing at all to do with BIAB at all its a post about how brewing is not as hard as Pat would have you believe.
> I'am not starting to think twice yet.
> Its maybe thoughts like this that make it sound like its confusing, conflicting and contradictory. Its not rocket science.
> Most novice brewers are maybe getting there heads around this for the first time but its not the first time they have had to use their brains.
> It seems your trying to actually make it sound more difficult than it is on purpose to help your arguement.
> 
> The how to brew books or online have all the information needed on mashtun design etc plus more and is written by a well respected member of the brewer community.
> Don't forget we all had to get degrees in rocket science which cost quite a lot :unsure:
> Again your trying to make it sound more of a drama than it really needs to be.
> How do BIABers get the wort from the kettle into the fermentor? well do the same thing for this.
> why would the mash be in the HLT and why would you want to put it straight into the fermentor?
> Thats a bit backwards the wort goes from the kettle into the fermentor and would be the exact same way as you do it for BIAB.
> You only need one piece.
> You'd only need two levels, everyone I know has the first level sorted the ground! Second level can be anything from the BBQ, old table, back of the ute. I don't know buts it not to hard to work out.
> Don't you need that anyway to BIAB to get the wort into the fermentor?
> Theres no real major extra lifting anything but I'am not about to explain how to brew from the start to finish right here. Hey wait don't you need to lift for BIAB? actually to the point your thinking of setting up a skyhook.
> Your really trying your hardest.
> I don't see how learning about sparging which can be summed up in a couple paragraphs is any different than learning about BIABing.
> Do your mash, drain add your needed water then drain again, simple.
> major hurdle? hardly
> advice often poor and/ or conflicting? never found that to be true. Its quite simple, nothing like you try and make it out to be.
> Of course you could.
> What thirsty has said is great, he's not trying to tell people that novice brewers are stupid and that traditional brewing is harder than it actually is like you are.
> prevent the thinking brewer from...............
> This is a internet forum and I'am always right
> I'am not even knocking BIAB I'am knocking the way you seem to think traditional brewing is something no novice brewer could possibly get there head around.
> BIAB clearly has less equipment less steps etc and I have no problem with the all in one brewery ideas but you don't have to make all these exhagerations on how complex traditional brewing actually is to try and sell your ideas.
> 
> Anyway I'am quite happy to bow out of this arguement and be wrong, don't really care.


Cheers Jayse ,It was all really getting out of hand anyway.You have said your piece and im sure every body will repect that.We will all go on brewing how we want to brew and be happy. :beerbang: Gryphon brewing


----------



## PistolPatch

Last night I thought I'd have to write another long reply to jayse's post but let's face it, all I'd be doing is repeating what has already been clearly and logically said. I'll leave it to the readers here to work out both what is sensible and whether the intentions of the writers here have been productive or just plain interruptive. To get a better idea of the latter, you'll have to read the BIAB bling thread. It's pretty clear there.


----------



## Fents

*THIS SPACE FOR SALE - ADVERTISE HERE AND GET SEEN BY EVERYONE*

PM PRICE!

:lol:


----------



## PistolPatch

You idiot Fents - lol!

Hey you still haven't explained the two meanings of spot ya? Hanging to know.

Spot!


----------



## Fents

did you not check that spot link?

If i say "spot ya" it means im *driving* the hot knives!


----------



## PistolPatch

Ah, now I get it Fents! I totally missed the link as I read the post in email form.

So, 'spot ya'is a friendly term in more ways than one - lol. What an educational thread this is!


----------



## PistolPatch

Guess what? This is my last post to AHB!

Ive been contemplating this for a while as some of you know but now is the time.

*The Reasoning*

It seems as though my writing style has begun to attract a few but very unproductive people lol! When I present facts, these people will side-step the facts and call me fanatical or turn an innocent intention into something negative. The last two threads I have started on AHB have quickly ended up as a disgrace. In fact my last thread, started off after a few beers, was something intended to be nice but quickly labelled as strange. This of course prevented anyone from actually following with the thread intention without risk of ridicule. No one here is going to want to whack in any BIAB bling ideas for the same reason. So, if my posts lead so quickly into an unproductive disarray, it is simply pointless to post and in fact, harmful to innocent others and to innocent ideas. For example, whilst informed readers here can easily sort out sense and nonsense, newer troops will only get bewildered by illogical and unproductive posts or threads.

*The Great Troops on AHB*

The people above _are_ few. The overwhelming majority of brewers on AHB are truly tops and Im lucky that Ill be able to continue to communicate and have beers with many of these guys either here or in other states a real pleasure. Im also looking forward to maintaining my communications and having beers with many of you from this thread. You couldnt ask for a thread with nicer people great humour, great sense and great contributors. Some of the BIAB posts on AHB have truly amazed me several in the last few days alone in fact.

*A Couple of Things I Can Do*

I thought I might be able to still contribute here and elsewhere on AHB in a productive way by doing the following things...

1. In the unlikely event that I have any good ideas, Ill convey them to someone here and ask them to pass them on if they think they have merit.
2. Ill do a quick-re-write of one section of the BIAB Booklet to get rid of the escalator mash error. If anyone wants to re-write or add parts to the booklet, just let me know and Ill re-post your revised .pdf and mention your changes in Post #1 of this thread.
3. If anyone wants anything changed or added to the first 4 posts of the thread, once again, let me know.
4. BIAB Competitions I have already two great blokes here that are going to help me out with getting some beers into competitions. Ill keep a few people here informed on how this goes and they can pass any news on.
5. Im still happy to answer the questions I sometimes get sent via PMs and if I see that someone has a question that I think I can help with then Ill send them a PM as well.

Im looking forward to being further educated by both the traditional and BIAB brewers who contribute so well to this thread and elsewhere on AHB. I find so much of the information truly fascinating.

So thanks a heap guys and happy brewing to you,
Pat

P.S. The real reason why I cant post anymore is that I have a new girlfriend. Heres a happy snap for you


----------



## LovesToBrew

whooaaa dude, you're out there!


----------



## matti

I don't blame you, Pat.
She looks luvely hehehehe


----------



## Hashie

Sorry to see it come to this. All the best Pat.

I can say that it was your idea of BIAB that got me into AG, I'd still be doing K&K otherwise.

Sorry that you feel the way you do, however, having read the threads, I can understand.

Cheers Hashie


----------



## Doogiechap

You'll be missed bloke !  
Your contribution has been appreciated by many ! Much better beer has been brewed thanks to you ! 
Good to hear you will continue lurking and helping  . 
A sad end to this chapter of AHB  .
Doug


----------



## big d

Oh well if Pats off AHB then i guess the get together at his place is cancelled.Looks like i will never get to meet him.

Cheers
Big D


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

big d said:


> Oh well if Pats off AHB then i guess the get together at his place is cancelled.Looks like i will never get to meet him.
> 
> Cheers
> Big D


Leave it out .The guys not dead :beerbang: Fun in the sun at Freo.


----------



## Darren

Thirsty Boy said:


> Dunno about tannins and unconverted starch making anything crystal clear.... and even if it is it may well taste horrible.
> 
> Might not need a bag... but how am I going to separate the grains out post boil?? I shall probably use a colander lined with a filter cloth... for which I will just use my "bag" I suppose a colander and a bit of cheesecloth is easier than a bag... but not a lot. I dont see it as a huge advantage... marginal at best.
> 
> But... rather than conject, I shall give it a go. Not gonna get scientific and do controls, calibration and all that guff, But I will split the wort into two halves... same mash. half boiled with half the grain, half normally (BIAB) lautered. Then I will assemble a tasting panel and we will do some triangles.
> 
> Fair ?? Not gonna happen in the next week or so though, I've brewed twice this week already and have neither the motivation nor the fermentors to brew again very soon.
> 
> Thirsty




Thirsty,

Did not see this post. Go for it. Would probably be easier to drill a hole in you pot and attach a conventional "filter" though.

cheers

Darren


----------



## Darren

Conventional filter would be a ring of copper with holes cut into it or an "easy hooker". You could simply remove the "filter" when the pot is a boiler!

Have I missed something?

cheers

Darren


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Darren said:


> Conventional filter would be a ring of copper with holes cut into it or an "easy hooker". You could simply remove the "filter" when the pot is a boiler!
> 
> Have I missed something?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



All, Darren and I are continuing something that started in the BIAB Bling thread. Darren is suggesting that the Bag part of BIAB is actually unnecessary, I'm trying to work out what he means.

So, you mash in you kettle/mashtun with whatever you decide to use as a wort filter(manifold, easy hooker etc), Then you lauter out of the kettle into presumably your fermentor? Then you clean the mash out of your kettle, then remove the filter, then pour the wort back into the kettle, then whack on your heat ?? Yes??

That would undoubtedly work. It would also solve the issue of any excessive particulate or proteins making it from the mash to the kettle.

It also sounds like a monumental pain in the bum.. I would be halfway through my boil using a bag, before I got my now half cold wort back into the kettle and on the heat with your idea. Its got its merits... but I'd think I'd rather stick with the bag. They aren't exactly hard to make or use. Still options are good and this is another one to consider.

If it turns out that you cant make beers that are stable in the long term with BIAB.. then maybe if I was making a beer that I knew I was going to keep around for a long time, maybe I would go to the extra trouble. But I think I'll wait to try a few aged BIABs before I swap methods. At this point the long term instability thing is only a speculation. Have to wait and see.

Thanks for the idea. I appreciate it.

Thirsty

PS... Unless you were actually still talking about the idea of boiling the grains and all.. in which case it make perfect sense.


----------



## The King of Spain

> PistolPatch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh Thirsty! I'm so happy I started the BIAB Bling thread
> 
> Thanks for your sensible and courageous posts there mate. Your fingers must be worn out!
> 
> Here's my response as to some reasons why people should think twice before they advise that a mash tun system is easier, just as cheap or better than BIAB.
> 
> 1. *All of Thirsty's Reasons* above and the many others that have been written about elsewhere in this thread or the forum.
> 2. *Building a Mash Tun* is not as easy as people make out for many novice brewers unless they have someone to help them along. Understanding the principles of a mash tun can be a very confusing, contradictory subject to learn about. It is often expensive as well. As Thirsty said, not many people stay thrilled with the bucket in bucket system and so you need an esky, a tap mechanism and a manifold. THe manifold is one area that gets very confusing due to the high amount of conflicting advice.
> 3. *Mash Tun Temperature:* To correct the temp in a mash tun system requires either very expensive pumping and heating mechanisms, an immersion element or cheapest of all, adding hotter water which can be a tricky thing to judge. With BIAB, you just add some flame for a minute or so and therefore can easily keep things accurate at zero expense.
> 4. *Tiers or Levels:* This is a major factor that no proponent of mash tuns has mentioned in the bling thread. It is VERY major. Jayse's idea of just having a 2 vessel system and using the fermenter to fill the gaps, ignores just how big those gaps are. How do you transfer the hot water from your kettle into the HLT? How do you transfer the mash from HLT to fermenter? How do you transfer wort from fermenter into the kettle to be boiled? You'll certainly want at least silicone hosing but you are now looking at 5 syphonings per brew instead of just one as you get with BIAB. THat's a MAJOR gaps. You are also going to either have to lift the vessel to a height that can be syphoned or create or build 3 levels on which to brew on unless you want to buy a pump. Taps and stands cost money. The end result tis still going to be a more complex and harder to operate system.
> 5. *Sparging Knowledge:* Once again this is a major hurdle for the novice brewer. The advice out there is often poor and/or conflicting. A novice even before getting their head around the spargiing process has to understand the difference between fly and batch-sparging and then know enough about them to be able to work out if people's advice refers to batch or fly.
> 
> Of course I could write a lot more and I and many others have written more before. But surely what Thirsty has written and the above though are enough to prevent the thinking brewer from writing some of the things that have been written in the bling thread?
> 
> Going to write some more here now but as it is a few different subjects, I'll put it in a separate post.
> 
> Spot,
> Pat
Click to expand...


Pat,

Thanks mate for getting me going (with BIAB) :super: , but seriously mate, my mash tun took about 20min to make. With a heads up on batch sparging from other more experienced members I am now getting 80% (every time) and very little trub. The beer, well its never been better....


----------



## Darren

Thirsty Boy said:


> All, Darren and I are continuing something that started in the BIAB Bling thread. Darren is suggesting that the Bag part of BIAB is actually unnecessary, I'm trying to work out what he means.
> 
> So, you mash in you kettle/mashtun with whatever you decide to use as a wort filter(manifold, easy hooker etc), Then you lauter out of the kettle into presumably your fermentor? Then you clean the mash out of your kettle, then remove the filter, then pour the wort back into the kettle, then whack on your heat ?? Yes??
> 
> That would undoubtedly work. It would also solve the issue of any excessive particulate or proteins making it from the mash to the kettle.
> 
> It also sounds like a monumental pain in the bum.. I would be halfway through my boil using a bag, before I got my now half cold wort back into the kettle and on the heat with your idea. Its got its merits... but I'd think I'd rather stick with the bag. They aren't exactly hard to make or use. Still options are good and this is another one to consider.
> 
> If it turns out that you cant make beers that are stable in the long term with BIAB.. then maybe if I was making a beer that I knew I was going to keep around for a long time, maybe I would go to the extra trouble. But I think I'll wait to try a few aged BIABs before I swap methods. At this point the long term instability thing is only a speculation. Have to wait and see.
> 
> Thanks for the idea. I appreciate it.
> 
> Thirsty
> 
> PS... Unless you were actually still talking about the idea of boiling the grains and all.. in which case it make perfect sense.




Thirsty,

I am still talking about both ideas. The small amount of dicking around collecting into a bucket then cleaning the mash out of the boiler maybe worth it in the long run if unconverted stach into the boil is going to be a problem.

If unconverted starch in the boiler is not a problem, then why not boil the whole damn lot and forget the bag.

As you rightly wrote earlier, decoctions are boiled (mainly grain too) with no problems associated with astringency.

BTW, I am not trying to diss the BIAB idea, it just seems to me anyhow, to not make AG brewing any easier than more conventional methods.

cheers

Darren


----------



## apd

Thirsty Boy said:


> ...
> So, you mash in you kettle/mashtun with whatever you decide to use as a wort filter(manifold, easy hooker etc), Then you lauter out of the kettle into presumably your fermentor? Then you clean the mash out of your kettle, then remove the filter, then pour the wort back into the kettle, then whack on your heat ?? Yes??
> ...
> It also sounds like a monumental pain in the bum.. I would be halfway through my boil using a bag, before I got my now half cold wort back into the kettle and on the heat with your idea. Its got its merits... but I'd think I'd rather stick with the bag. They aren't exactly hard to make or use. Still options are good and this is another one to consider.



Thirsty,

I've done exactly what you describe and yes, it is a pain in the bum. My filter was a stainless steel scrubby jammed on the end of my racking cane. I syphoned to my fermentor, then back into my cleaned out mash tun/kettle.

I use a bag now. 

Andrew


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Darren said:


> Thirsty,
> 
> I am still talking about both ideas. The small amount of dicking around collecting into a bucket then cleaning the mash out of the boiler maybe worth it in the long run if unconverted stach into the boil is going to be a problem.
> 
> If unconverted starch in the boiler is not a problem, then why not boil the whole damn lot and forget the bag.
> 
> As you rightly wrote earlier, decoctions are boiled (mainly grain too) with no problems associated with astringency.
> 
> BTW, I am not trying to diss the BIAB idea, it just seems to me anyhow, to not make AG brewing any easier than more conventional methods.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren




Yeah.. but having actually done it both ways... it does. Considerably.

BTW... nobody is saying that BIAB lets unconverted starch through into the kettle. just that it maybe lets a little more fine particulate through. Not necessarily unconverted starch. I have performed iodine tests on the kettle wort, and there is nothing that is so unconverted that it registers a colour change in the iodine.

The difference in particulate in a BIAB wort to a fairly standard homebrew wort, is probably not really any greater than the difference between say a herms or rims wort, and someone who just volaufs a few litres till there aren't any chunks.

Its not like there is any particularly solid or undebatable reasons why clear wort is better than cloudy wort... So BIAB wort is well and truly at the cloudy end of the scale... that might mean nothing at all.

Still your idea solves the problem if it turns out to exist ;and then I would probably go to the trouble if I was making a big beer for aging.

We'll just have to monitor the quality of the beers as we get to the point where there are actually some BIAB beers with a bit of age on them. Hopefully it just wont be an issue, like so many other things that were going to mean that BIAB could never work...

Of course, I'm still going to give that whole boiling everything brew a go... why the hell not?

Thirsty

PS - I just remembered. I think that one of the reasons that you can boil the bejeezus out of a decoction without leeching too many tannins, is because you are using a "thick" portion. I'm pretty sure that the large ratio of grain to liquid in the decoction portion buffers the ph and stops tannin extraction. That might not be the case with boiling everything and the very thin L:G ratio involved. We'll see.


----------



## pint of lager

45 pages of posts, you BIAB folk have been busy.

I have a couple of thoughts for your method. Sorry, I am not reading the whole lot to see if they have been addressed. 

1. Temperature control. 

Pat discussed this a bit in the first post. Temperature of the mash is extremely important. With the high emzyme malts we have these days, it is critical that the strike temp is right. Spending too long at the wrong temperature allows different enzymes to work on the mash and changes the profile of the mash. Because the modern malts have high diastic powers (lots of enzymes) much of their work happens in the first 20 minutes of mashing.

With BIAB, uniform stirring of the mash would be harder with a bag in the way, leading to hot and cold spots. Also, because the pot is not insulated, much of the heat will be lost. The brewer will have to spend most of the mashtime, trying to heat the bottom of the pot and try and stir that heat uniformly throughout the mash. 

Mashing in an insulated vessel is much easier.

2. Efficiency.

BIAB is inefficient. With a better sparge, you will end up doing every 4th-5th brew for free.

3. Wort profile.

With an efficient sparge, towards the end of the runnings, the profile changes towards the longer chain sachaarides (malt sugars) These give your brew body. Without an efficient sparge, these will be missing in BIAB.

4. Haze and brew stability.

One of the aims at every step of beer production is to reduce hazes. These affect the long term stability of the packaged and finished beer. Without recirculating the wort, BIAB suffers from excess gunk in the boil. This means less wort into the fermenter and the chance of hazes.

Many of these factors are hard to quantify. With new brewers, some of them do not really matter. But ignoring them may lead to problems.

The enthusiasm and keenness of the BIAB crowd does them proud. But burying your head in the sand ignoring other methods of brewing is not doing justice to your beers or your own skills.

A couple of other methods to try out:

Bucket in bucket. Two 20 litre buckets (large white ones)nested one inside the other. The bottom bucket is fitted with a tap (from the homebrew shop, snap tap with backing nut), the inner bucket has the base drilled with lots of holes to form a false bottom. Wrap the lot in insulation, recycled bubblewrap or old blankets.

Esky with braid. Fit esky with braid for manifold.

If you have a boiler, fit a tap to it and make running off easier.

BIAB is only one of many ways to get into ag brewing. Whichever way you select, depends on your skill with a set of pliers, drill or sewing needle.


----------



## Adzmax

My Italian burner and 60lt Robinox pot have arrived. I've just order the ingredients to make Ross's Summer Ale as my first AG brew  Should be good I hope!


----------



## Hashie

I am consistently getting 80% efficiency with BIAB.

Haze and stability can be addressed by adding specialty grains at mash out.

My keggle is insulated once the flame is turned off with a camping mat and maintains a constant 66C for a 1 hour mash. Followed by a constant 77C for a 30 minute mash out. No need to heat while mashing.

Less wort in the fermenter due to trub, I'll take your word for it. But also factor in less wort lost to grain.

I wouldn't, for 1 minute, consider criticising another brewers chosen method, unless I had first hand experience and knowledge of their process. So I am mystified why some find BIAB or single vessel brewing to be not worthy of making beer.


----------



## Stuster

pint of lager said:


> 3. Wort profile.
> 
> With an efficient sparge, towards the end of the runnings, the profile changes towards the longer chain sachaarides (malt sugars) These give your brew body. Without an efficient sparge, these will be missing in BIAB.



Hmm. Not a BIABer as you know, PoL, but this one got me thinking. Can this really be right? No-sparge brewing produces a maltier beer with more body according to Fix and many others. Parti-gyle beers - first runnings beers were (are) the best beers. My experience with parti-gyle beers is that the first runnings beers seem to have more body than a 'normal' beer of similar gravity. :unsure:


----------



## lucas

I see thirsty and spills are doing a BIAB demo at grain and grape in the coming month. Good stuff! should break the image usually conceived from the G&G demos that you need a $3K herms setup to brew allgrain beers


----------



## jendres

Grain and Grape BIAB demo on 22nd Sept. From their newsletter:

22nd September 

Breaking all the rules demo of BIAB (Brew in a bag) and No Chill by our Dan Walker & Geoff Hammond.


----------



## bugwan

Damn, I've finally gotten back to my PC and thought I'd post this info (about G&G sessions) and was thoroughly beaten!

Good on Thirsty and Spills for doing this. I have to say, Grain and Grape have some great programs now - brew demos every weekend, plus new sessions like yeast handling/starters, how to keg etc. Great stuff!


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

pint of lager said:


> 45 pages of posts, you BIAB folk have been busy.
> 
> I have a couple of thoughts for your method. Sorry, I am not reading the whole lot to see if they have been addressed.



Sorry, but you should have. It would have saved you typing your post.



pint of lager said:


> 1. Temperature control.
> 
> Pat discussed this a bit in the first post. Temperature of the mash is extremely important. With the high emzyme malts we have these days, it is critical that the strike temp is right. Spending too long at the wrong temperature allows different enzymes to work on the mash and changes the profile of the mash. Because the modern malts have high diastic powers (lots of enzymes) much of their work happens in the first 20 minutes of mashing.
> 
> With BIAB, uniform stirring of the mash would be harder with a bag in the way, leading to hot and cold spots. Also, because the pot is not insulated, much of the heat will be lost. The brewer will have to spend most of the mashtime, trying to heat the bottom of the pot and try and stir that heat uniformly throughout the mash.
> 
> Mashing in an insulated vessel is much easier.



With a little practice, as it would using any method, it is possible to hit your target strike and mash temps consistently every time. I do. 

I do not find the bag gets in the way when I mash in a bag - it just doesn't happen. When I brew in my big setup outside, I insulate the boiler using cardboard and an old camping mat and can just squirt a bit of energy into it every 30 minutes or so on a cold day. On my small stove-top setup I have a direct-heated mash tun which allows me to add as many steps as I want/need/desire.

Your comment on ease is just bluster.



pint of lager said:


> 2. Efficiency.
> 
> BIAB is inefficient. With a better sparge, you will end up doing every 4th-5th brew for free.



Sorry, but this is ignorant bluster. It's easy to get 75-80% brewhouse efficiency without sparge and approaching 90% with a simple dunk sparge using a kitchen pot. And that is only if you care about such things. It was pointed out to me last week that people like Jamil Zainachef usually quote lower than 70% in their published recipes as they focus on quality of the finished product more than extracting every last sugar molecule.



pint of lager said:


> 3. Wort profile.
> 
> With an efficient sparge, towards the end of the runnings, the profile changes towards the longer chain sachaarides (malt sugars) These give your brew body. Without an efficient sparge, these will be missing in BIAB.



Stuster got it right when he stated that people who write books on the subject disagree with you.



pint of lager said:


> 4. Haze and brew stability.
> 
> One of the aims at every step of beer production is to reduce hazes. These affect the long term stability of the packaged and finished beer. Without recirculating the wort, BIAB suffers from excess gunk in the boil. This means less wort into the fermenter and the chance of hazes.




I think the jury is still out on this one. I wouldn't be stating anything as fact in this area yet.



pint of lager said:


> But burying your head in the sand ignoring other methods of brewing is not doing justice to your beers or your own skills.



Finally, something we agree on.

I don't understand why there is such a negative attitude towards this wort-preparation process. If you gave something a shot and decided you didn't like the process or the outcome, that is one thing. But the bombastic ignorance some people are displaying here is truly astounding.

I like the BIAB process. I like the beers I make - as do others who drink them. I believe that a good brewer could make good beer in a plastic bucket if they were of a mind to do so. If they did, I would wish them well rather than tell them they got it all wrong.


----------



## Steve

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> I like the BIAB process. I like the beers I make - as do others who drink them. I believe that a good brewer could make good beer in a plastic bucket if they were of a mind to do so. If they did, I would wish them well rather than tell them they got it all wrong.




here bloody here :beer: 
Cheers
Steve


----------



## MVZOOM

pint of lager said:


> 1. Temperature control.
> 
> Pat discussed this a bit in the first post. Temperature of the mash is extremely important. With the high emzyme malts we have these days, it is critical that the strike temp is right. Spending too long at the wrong temperature allows different enzymes to work on the mash and changes the profile of the mash. Because the modern malts have high diastic powers (lots of enzymes) much of their work happens in the first 20 minutes of mashing.
> 
> With BIAB, uniform stirring of the mash would be harder with a bag in the way, leading to hot and cold spots. Also, because the pot is not insulated, much of the heat will be lost. The brewer will have to spend most of the mashtime, trying to heat the bottom of the pot and try and stir that heat uniformly throughout the mash.
> 
> Mashing in an insulated vessel is much easier.



My BIAB 'Mash Tun' is insulated and probed with a long stemmed thermo at regular times during the mash. I get about .7degC loss over 60min. Also, due to the volume of mash water, it's a lot easier to stir the mash, thereby decreasing the chance of hot / cold spots and the grain clumping together.



pint of lager said:


> 2. Efficiency.
> 
> BIAB is inefficient. With a better sparge, you will end up doing every 4th-5th brew for free.



Last brew I just achieved 1052 OG at 23L from 5KG of grain. Can't be arsed working that out, but it's not bad. From what I understand, is as good, if not better than normal sparging, especially for a beginner such as myself.



pint of lager said:


> 3. Wort profile.
> 
> With an efficient sparge, towards the end of the runnings, the profile changes towards the longer chain sachaarides (malt sugars) These give your brew body. Without an efficient sparge, these will be missing in BIAB.



I think this is adressed as above, it's a fairly efficient sparging method, no?



pint of lager said:


> 4. Haze and brew stability.
> 
> One of the aims at every step of beer production is to reduce hazes. These affect the long term stability of the packaged and finished beer. Without recirculating the wort, BIAB suffers from excess gunk in the boil. This means less wort into the fermenter and the chance of hazes.



I can't really comment too hard on these ones. Personally, the brews I have done via my mash tun and my BIAB have both been similar in terms of clarity. Long term stability - no idea, you may be right here. I no chill as well, so am probably running the gauntlet of insufferable pain when I get thrown to the Brewers Pergatory.



pint of lager said:


> The enthusiasm and keenness of the BIAB crowd does them proud. But burying your head in the sand ignoring other methods of brewing is not doing justice to your beers or your own skills.



I could also re-turn this sentance: The enthusiasm and keenness of the traditional mashing crowd does them proud. But burying your head in the sand ignoring other methods of brewing is not doing justice to your beers or your own skills.

I already have a mash tun, which I'll be fitting a larger braid on this weekend, so I can properly populate my brewstand. I intend to move forward using both methods in future - so it's all good.

Cheers - Mike


----------



## eric8

pint of lager said:


> 1. Temperature control.
> 
> Pat discussed this a bit in the first post. Temperature of the mash is extremely important. With the high emzyme malts we have these days, it is critical that the strike temp is right. Spending too long at the wrong temperature allows different enzymes to work on the mash and changes the profile of the mash. Because the modern malts have high diastic powers (lots of enzymes) much of their work happens in the first 20 minutes of mashing.
> 
> With BIAB, uniform stirring of the mash would be harder with a bag in the way, leading to hot and cold spots. Also, because the pot is not insulated, much of the heat will be lost. The brewer will have to spend most of the mashtime, trying to heat the bottom of the pot and try and stir that heat uniformly throughout the mash.
> 
> Mashing in an insulated vessel is much easier.



The first BIAB I did I only lost about a degree to 1.5, and my keggle is not insulated. So not too bad if you ask me.
By the way, I think the beer tasted FANTASTIC.
eric


----------



## Kingy

I had a problem with my BIAB and i found out what it was. Since ive started doing AG ive been drinking excessively because it tasted so good and after getting pissed everynight for a few months it started to taste, well,average. Due to excessive consumption i was over it. (also being a tree lopper i was getting to heavy to pull my beer gut up a tree)

Ive since cut back a fair bit, and the beer tastes awesome again (and im a lot lighter). I cant believe i make this beer :lol: 

Im back to enjoying making beer instead of it being a chore and have myself a few more kegs and taps so the beer ages more and i have more variety on tap.

My beer is a lot better than beers from the local bottlo (not that i go there anymore)

My aluminium pot loses 2 degrees maximum over 90 mins,there fore i have it on low for a few minutes at about 45 mins to keep it steady. And thats in winter with the shed wide open and in the blue mountains.
So in summer it wont be a problem (havent brewed Ag in summer yet) next winter ill use my heavy tramping mat (too heavy to hike with) to keep it at a more stable temp.

im sure that will will fix my 2 degree temp variation.


Efficency is through the roof.

I no chill and beer is as clear as can be in the kegs (havent tasted any bottled brews yet)

And most of all i love my beer and so do others.

Why would i spend the extra $$$ and time on another method when im happy doing what im doing now.Its fast and simple and produces great beer. I know there are people with 3 vessel systems who look down on us and think "they dont know what what there missing out on" or " they are doing it the wrong way" but honestly have you tried a beer done by this method.

also, i could spend the extra $$$ on the 3 vessel system and my beer will be the same. Wouldnt i be farked off then 

further down the track i will have a full brewery with a mash tun (for the bling factor),but ATM this method of brewing is really suiting my hectic lifestlye to a T

My beer is coming out exeptionally well and im very proud to make beer that is extremely drinkable, even if i am "cheating" or "doing it the wrong way" as others may say.

Im happy and i know a lot of others who use this method are happy as well. And are enjoying there beers right now. 

cheers,kingy

P.s who cares how its brewed as long as it tastes good, I mean thats why we do isnt it :huh: not to have a better set up or claim to brew better beer than anybody else


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

I reckon you've hit the nail on the head, Kingy. It's kind of strange that home/craft brewers have so much in common and yet on discussion forums like this one, it is the differences that tend to get focussed on.

K&K / Extract versus All Grain.
Chillers versus Not.
Fly-spargers versus Batch-spargers.
Everyone versus BIAB  
etc.

And yet, we all do it for pretty much the same reason - to get pissed cheap so we can drink beer that is more to our taste than can be purchased at the local, or because we like the process, or because we get to wave power tools around while drinking beer under the guise of creating a brew sculpture (or is that just me?).

We tend to be a fairly expressive and opinionated bunch - just look at what happens when someone mentions the price/quality/colour/packaging of the megabreweries' product. We can hide behind our nicknames and Internet connections. If we post late enough at night, we can blame our handiwork.

I see flame wars on the Intraweb thingy all the time. (For the record, I don't like the viral nature of the GPL.  ) Each time I am about to come up with a theory, something comes along and shows me that I don't understand.

I do understand that we all enjoy making good beer (and that this post is off-topic, but I am about to have a beer.)


----------



## Hashie

Good post Kingy, good posts Spills.

At the end of the day we are all making beer, some better than others (at least in their own minds). After all, there is no such thing as bad beer, only good beer and better beer. If someone doesn't like my good beer, all the more for me.

Seriously, if BIAB can make good, drinkable beer. With good efficiency (75-80%), without the extra lifting, pumping (transferring), vessels and in less time. What's the problem?

We all (I assume) started with K&K and graduated to AG. We all make wort that yeast turns to beer. Fly sparge, batch sparge, rectangular tun, round tun, braid manifold, copper manifold, false bottom, march pump, HERMS, BIAB etc. etc they are all different methods people use to turn grain to fermentable wort. I really don't understand why BIAB has attracted such criticism.
If it was called 'Single vessel brewing' I believe it would have been received better. 

Time for another (BIAB) beer.


----------



## eric8

Hashie,
you have hit the nail on the head as well. Does it really matter how you make your beer? I would say that most people when they first started K+K they thought their beer was good.
Once you graduate up from that you know you are making better beer.

Isn't the main reason we make our beer b/c it's great fun to do? I know it is for me, and then you get to drink great beer at the end. No down sides I can see.

Spills as always has put up a great post. Always good to read and informative. Usually says whats on my mind, except i can never seem to put it into words.

Kingy, great to see you are loving your brewing and drinking of beer again. I was a bit worried when you said it was becoming a chore, but that seems to be rectified. :super: .

I just wish I had more time to brew, but at least I love doing what I am doing, even it is BIAB.
eric


----------



## new2brew

Guys, in the last 3 post you have encaptulated , at least for mine, why we all brew and are here in the first place. To brew good beer and hopefully make it better.

I have just made my fisrt partial brew in the last few days, but have been brewing for about 4 years now. The reason I have tried it is because of the encouragement I have recieved from everyone on the site

At the end of the day, so long as the people drinking the beer enjoy it, then for mine it is a great beer. Be it BIAB, full, partial or kit. Good beer is good beer.

At the end of a hard days work, is there anything better than pouring something you have created, taking that first sip and thinking to yourself "I made that.... and I love it"


----------



## poppa joe

"I made that..and i love it" :beerbang: 
Who cares HOW i made it......  
End of rant :beer: 
PJ


----------



## Darren

Nothing wrong with BIAB, just there are easier, more reproducible ways to do it.

cheers

Darren


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Darren said:


> Nothing wrong with BIAB, just there are easier, more reproducible ways to do it.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren




So, when you tried BIAB you found it harder Darren? Was there a particular part you had trouble with? Perhaps one of the more experienced BIABers has a solution for you. Thats what this thread is for after all, despite what it sometimes seems like.

How many BIAB brews did you do? I assume it was at least a few so that you can so confidently say that it was the method rather than inexperience on your part that made it difficult. Because of course I _know_ that no one who thought they could command even a shred of credibility would be so obtuse as to pass judgment on the ease of a process that they had in fact not tried for themselves... 

However I'm afraid that I utterly reject the "reproducible" part of your comment... you are just manifestly and obviously trotting out a statement simply because you like the sound of it. Please tell me unambiguously just which part of the BIAB process makes it in any way not just as reproducible as any other given physical feat?


You see, don't you? That this is why BIAB people get a little annoyed and defensive on occasion... POL was fine in most of her comments.. she outlined issues she saw, and gave reasons for her beliefs. That way people could provide opinions and /or evidence to either agree with her or oppose her point of view.. where she simply opined without reason.. people pointed it out. sternly.

So I'm pointing it out to you... if you don't want to BIAB, OK. But if you want to state as fact that BIAB has certain negative attributes, or that while it works, it works less well than an alternative; at least have the good grace to provide some sort of reason why you hold the opinion. Debate is fine, dogmatism is just boring.

I was really enjoying the last few posts on this thread... people were displaying some really mature and nicely human attitudes towards the hobby we all enjoy. Why cant it be like that all the time.

"I made that... and I love it" ........... surely that has to be good enough ?

Thirsty


----------



## Kai

Thirsty Boy said:


> You see, don't you? That this is why BIAB people get a little annoyed and defensive on occasion... POL was fine in most of his comments.. he outlined issues he saw, and gave reasons for his beliefs. That way people could provide opinions and /or evidence to either agree with him or oppose his point of view.. where he simply opined without reason.. people pointed it out. sternly.



Pint raised some stellar points, as she consistently tends to do. My favourite one is that while BIAB might be an excellent introduction to brewing, there are many other good methods for beginners and there are many better methods for experienced brewers.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Kai said:


> Pint raised some stellar points, as she consistently tends to do. My favourite one is that while BIAB might be an excellent introduction to brewing, there are many other good methods for beginners and there are many better methods for experienced brewers.




Pint did raise some great points.. but as you no doubt read... they all (but one) actually turn out to not be the issue that Pint thought they would be. It really is all in the 40 plus pages....

I agree absolutely there are many other good methods for beginner brewers. Everything from BIAB through to a re-circulating mash system... they are all great, and mostly not all that hard to do.

Having actually tried pretty much all of them though, its my opinion that the simplest and easiest of them all is BIAB. Hotly followed at not too great a distance, by a braid and esky set-up.

Its the next sentence of yours that I don't agree with at all.
". . . and there are many better methods for experienced brewers . . ."

I don't think thats true, I have tried beers produced using all the methods and I fail to see any trend whatsoever of one being "better" than the others. I have had fantastic BIAB beers and terrible beers produced on a HERMS. Surely the measure of "better" as a brewing technique is the beer it produces. So then doesn't that make BIAB better than a HERMS?? Of course it doesn't... 

Yet you state as fact that there are "better" methods for experienced brewers; and in exactly the same manner as Darren, you say it without providing any reason or evidence as to why you believe it is so.

I am interested in brewing great beer.. I really want to know what these better methods are. I'd appreciate it if you could tell me.

PS: appologise for the wrong gender references in my last post. I have fixed them


----------



## Kai

My understanding of BIAB is it was designed as a good method for new brewers to make an all-grain beer with a minimum of headache over equipment and technique, both big hurdles for anyone who is new to the game.

My first point, good methods for beginners:

My first grain brew was a partial mash in the kitchen; 2.5kg of ale malt, some Perle and a Grumpy's XXXX masterbrew. Mashed in a 6-pack esky, first runnings collected with a jug & sieve and the same again for the sparge. Boiled on the kitchen stove in a twenty dollar pot from whatever cheap shop was local at the time. It had all the limitations of a partial mash brew but was a solid introduction to brewing with grain at the same time. The only thing I actually bought for this exercise was the cheapo 17L pot, everything else was in my kitchen already (including a 9L pot for heating hot liquor, even that's not too far out of the norm). As far as cheap, simple and easy goes, I think there are methods that are at least the equal of BIAB.

My second point, better methods for experienced brewers:

There are a lot of points here, that cover different categories. I guess it's easiest do differentiate them as what's good for the brewer and what's good for the beer. Some or all of these points have been raised already, no doubt.

Liquor:Grist ratio. Sure, it'll work ok with a "full volume" mash (ie you'll get conversion), but is it going to work ok for every brew? What if i you use a high proportion of adjunct? What if your malt is old and slack? What if you're after that extra level of fermentability? Are your enzymes going to cope? Note, this is assuming that brewers in a bag are mashing with their full liquor volume, my understanding of the process is this is how it's being done. Merely using a bag to mash/lauter is a different kettle of fish.

If the bag doesn't prevent particulate matter being removed as it would in an ordinary vorlauf, then I'd see that as an issue. I guess that would depend on your bag though?

Flexibiity. High gravity, low gravity, thin mash, thick mash. Decoction. Partigyle. Cold steeping. Double brew day. Triple brew day. All strange words that scare new brewers. 

When it comes down to it, flexibility is the one that concerns me the most. I'm not brewing at home solely to make beer. I'm brewing for the sake of it, and you can't tell me that brewing with me grain in a bag will afford me the same level of flexibilty as the method of my choice will. 

When it comes down to it though, it's all about the beer. I'm putting down my first and only BIAB this weekend and I'm looking forward to every minute of it


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Kai said:


> My understanding of BIAB is it was designed as a good method for new brewers to make an all-grain beer with a minimum of headache over equipment and technique, both big hurdles for anyone who is new to the game.
> 
> My first point, good methods for beginners:
> 
> My first grain brew was a partial mash in the kitchen; 2.5kg of ale malt, some Perle and a Grumpy's XXXX masterbrew. Mashed in a 6-pack esky, first runnings collected with a jug & sieve and the same again for the sparge. Boiled on the kitchen stove in a twenty dollar pot from whatever cheap shop was local at the time. It had all the limitations of a partial mash brew but was a solid introduction to brewing with grain at the same time. The only thing I actually bought for this exercise was the cheapo 17L pot, everything else was in my kitchen already (including a 9L pot for heating hot liquor, even that's not too far out of the norm). As far as cheap, simple and easy goes, I think there are methods that are at least the equal of BIAB.
> 
> My second point, better methods for experienced brewers:
> 
> There are a lot of points here, that cover different categories. I guess it's easiest do differentiate them as what's good for the brewer and what's good for the beer. Some or all of these points have been raised already, no doubt.
> 
> Liquor:Grist ratio. Sure, it'll work ok with a "full volume" mash (ie you'll get conversion), but is it going to work ok for every brew? What if i you use a high proportion of adjunct? What if your malt is old and slack? What if you're after that extra level of fermentability? Are your enzymes going to cope? Note, this is assuming that brewers in a bag are mashing with their full liquor volume, my understanding of the process is this is how it's being done. Merely using a bag to mash/lauter is a different kettle of fish.
> 
> If the bag doesn't prevent particulate matter being removed as it would in an ordinary vorlauf, then I'd see that as an issue. I guess that would depend on your bag though?
> 
> Flexibiity. High gravity, low gravity, thin mash, thick mash. Decoction. Partigyle. Cold steeping. Double brew day. Triple brew day. All strange words that scare new brewers.
> 
> When it comes down to it, flexibility is the one that concerns me the most. I'm not brewing at home solely to make beer. I'm brewing for the sake of it, and you can't tell me that brewing with me grain in a bag will afford me the same level of flexibilty as the method of my choice will.
> 
> When it comes down to it though, it's all about the beer. I'm putting down my first and only BIAB this weekend and I'm looking forward to every minute of it




But see you illustrate my point.. only a few pages in the thread back, most of your points were addressed.

oh and BTW, I did my first BIAB (not partial mash, AG) in the kitchen for a total cost of $3.50 for the 1meter of voil... which one of us wins?. who cares really. Besides, remember, there was no argument about there being several different and good ways for a new AG brewer to go. I tried several of them out and I think BIAB is the easiest. But that doesn't make any of the others hard.

L:G ratio has been done to death I'm afraid... unfortunately the people who use it as an argument against BIAB cant decide whether the beers wont convert properly (they do) whether they will be overly dextrinous (they aren't) or whether they will be too thin and overly fermentable (again, they aren't) The overriding result of the actual beers produced.. is that the main influencing factor is, as it is in other forms of brewing, temperature. I mash at 1C lower when I BIAB to compensate.. and that allows me as much control over wort fermentability when I BIAB as I get when I use my HERMS.

You are right about it perhaps not being right for "every" brew, and its a point that has been made by several of the more verbose BIAB proponents, that brews at the "extremes" will be playing to the potential weaknesses of the method.

- Very high levels of Adjunct that require conversion might be an issue (up to 25% is OK, I've tried it, but haven't gone further) 

- Slack grain... c'mon, no matter what system you have, you wont produce your best beer with bad grain. Would you really advise someone to change brewing systems to cope with slack grain? or would you tell them to brew a beer with it (maybe mash a little longer) take what they get, and try to turn their grain over a little more regularly?

- The one you missed that might also be an issue, is trying to do a single infusion at temperature extremes... right at the limits of Amalayse activity.. and you might bump into the "line" a bit earlier with BIAB than with another method. Dont really know if anyone has tried it out in a decently constructed side by side.

Particulate matter in the boil.. yep. There is more in BIAB. But then again, there is more in the boil of someone who simply vorlaufs a few litres and drains, than there is in the wort of someone who recirculates their wort for the entire mash.. I have yet to hear a convincing and unchallenged argument that says that clear wort is actually a precursor to better beer.. even the professional texts don't uniformly agree. It seems to be mainly that brewers "prefer" a clear wort.

It could lead to long term stability issues.. but I think that its been made clear that we know that. We are waiting till there is a bit of a body of actual evidence built up in some aged beers.. if its an issue, then we need to start flagging it as a limitation in the method. At 6 months.. we know we are OK... longer term, we are waiting to see.

- "Flexibiity. High gravity, low gravity, thin mash, thick mash. Decoction. Partigyle. Cold steeping. Double brew day. Triple brew day."

Well thick mash/ thin mash would obviously take some significant juggling of the original method, possible once you have been playing with it for a while, but lets just say that thats out. Fair enough.

Partigyle, not necessarily out (been giving this some thought) it could be done and would actually result in you brewing with a far more traditional L:G ratio.. use your imagination.

High/Low grav. Well I've brewed a Barley wine and a Scottish 60. Decoction, done it, easier than from my mash tun, you just pull up the bag a little to access the thick portion of the grain. Cold steeping, of course you could, double, triple brew days, of course you could. I've also done a cereal mash and a sour mash. I step mash every BIAB brew I do and have done a comprehensive right through. Dough-in, acid, Beta Glucan, low protien, high protien, Beta, Alpha and mashout... its a PITA, but it is on my normal AG system too.. I actually hit rest temps a little more accurately with the BIAB, but thats probably because I do smaller batches.

So the flexibility is there..

Its all about little differences, some methods are better for some things, some are better for others. Thats all I am trying to get across... BIAB isn't a better, nor is it a worse way of making beer. Its just _another_ way of making beer. I think its a particularly attractive one for new AG brewers, but I also think its a perfectly valid brewing technique in its own right.

I'm glad you are actually going to try doing a brew.. but I really hope you give it more of a chance than 'one and only'. It might not turn out so great, but if you completely changed methods to a non-biab technique, would that not also be possible then? Like all the other methods, it takes a couple of goes to finese.

If your just trying it for a lark, fair enough and good on you too, don't bother with more than one; But if you are seriously trying to evaluate it as a method.. give it a bit more of a run. Trust me, the beers will not turn out so badly that you will need to tip them or anything.

I appreciate the response you made to my last post.. if all the posts were like yours.. then things would have been much more civilised around here lately.

Cheers and good luck with the brew

Thirsty


----------



## Kai

thirsty,

sorry for the slow response, been working my way round to it.

equipment - i assume you already owned a pot of 40L or greater? I'd say most people don't. That can be an expensive outlay.

L:G - yeah, I don't doubt that BIABers still make good beers even with the L:G ratios they're using. The proof is in the pudding, after all. However, this ties in with the extreme conditions that you say even BIAB proponents say may affect conditions. I think a mash is more likely to go wrong in a BIAB then it is with a more traditional mash regime, for all the reasons I mentioned before. That doesn't mean I think it's very likely, it may be a fart in a million depending on your brewing habits.

And you're right about temperature, but that just slots in alongside my point. Introduce temperature variance and it's all the safer to have a L:G ratio considered optimal for whatever enzymes are involved. And I'd say not many homebrewers bother to calibrate their thermometers. I know I've had some out by a few degrees or more in past. And again.. you'll still probably make good beer, most or almost all of the time.

Particulate matter - Yeah, it does seem to be ambiguous whether it's better to have it al gone or not. However, I definitely prefer to remove as much as conveniently possible. Maybe the placebo effect makes it feel better, but I know that less crap at the start of the boil = less crap at the end = less crap in the fermenter. I like that, and a couple litres of recirculating gives far, far less particulate matter than a BIAB does. More than a really solid vorlauf would, sure, but then again I've never had a mash recirc to clarity. Maybe one day...

Flexibility - yeah, you're right high and low gravs are both possible. Step mashing, I definitely understand is doable. Decoction, I don't understand how you do with a single vessel (I have been working under the assumption that BIAB is a single vessel system). Same with partigyles. And I'd love to see how long a triple brew day would take.

And you're right, it's a different way of brewing. No arguments here. My main motivation for posting was that I think there are a ) easier and cheaper methods for beginners and b ) better, more flexibile methods for experienced brewers. I don't think either of us would disagree there.

As for my BIAB, well it was a fun day and I made a great-tasting Pacific Gem ESB. Bloody thing won't drop below 1.018 though... not that I blame the bag...


----------



## Adzmax

I'll be attending G&G's BIAB day, really looking forward to it and it couldn't have come at a better time as I have my grain sitting on my desk as I type. Just got to pick up a tap etc for my new pot and I'm set


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Kai said:


> My main motivation for posting was that I think there are a ) easier and cheaper methods for beginners and b ) better, more flexibile methods for experienced brewers. I don't think either of us would disagree there.



Not so unfortunately.. I think we are just at a dead lock of intractable disagreement.

I absolutely do believe that BIAB is the easiest and cheapest way for a beginner to go fully AG, or I wouldn't recommend it as such. If you don't feel the same way, then we must just obviously define simple and cheap differently.

As a matter of fact that is the reason I find myself stridently sticking up for the method when it isn't even the main way I make beer... I think it is compellingly more appropriate for new brewers. And I want to encourage more brewers to brew from grain... so I promote BIAB as the way to do it if all the other stuff has made you shy away. And lets face it, all the other stuff DOES make people shy away.

while I believe that the beginners thing is the most important reason to actively encourage BIAB, I just also plain see it as a perfectly legitimate brewing technique in its own right.... simply one of the alternatives. Neither better now worse than any of the others

And so therefore I don't agree that the other methods of AG brewing are either better nor more flexible for the advanced brewer.

*Better* is so relative a term that it is almost pointless, there just isn't any way to prove it one way or another, I think ALL the methods are around equal in their ability to produce good beer, subject to the skill of the brewer.

There is a little give and take in all of them... fly sparge can get the best efficiency - but you have to be careful of the ph in the sparge or you get tannins, Batch sparge is easier and simpler - but you lose efficiency and you usually need a bigger mash tun than for fly, in BIAB you need to be careful of your temps if you go "extreme" - but you take up a lot less room in the shed..... and so on and so on. If one way is definitively better than all the others... why aren't we all brewing that way??

As for *Flexible* - I dont see where the less flexible argument wasn't easily answered by my last post?? All the examples of "flexibility" you have mentioned... I can do with BIAB. Oh and just to be sure.. I did a brew with Spills tonight where we did indeed do a partigyle brew.

Of course for a cereal mash, for partigyle, or for decoction... you need another pot, in exactly the same fashion you need an extra pot if you do any of those things on any other sort of system.. they are advanced techniques that need it.. so with BIAB you are up to a grand total of 2 pots if you want to do a decoction. On my normal system, I'm up to 4...

I'm waiting for the beer that people can point to that I cant brew BIAB... I haven't been able to think of one. I also cant think of a variation of the standard brewing techniques that cant be adapted to BIAB, there might be one, but its none of the ones you thought of, and I haven't thought of one.


So unfortunately we cant agree there.. there are points of opinion, where we are just obviously of a different mind, and it seems, some things that you just dont believe me on. Oh well.

Long live the difference, it make the world a more interesting place I suppose.

Thirsty


----------



## RobB

Thirsty Boy said:


> And I want to encourage more brewers to brew from grain... so I promote BIAB as the way to do it if all the other stuff has made you shy away. And lets face it, all the other stuff DOES make people shy away.



If that's the point of BIAB, then I suppose I'm living proof. I saw BIAB as the simplest and cheapest way of turning my extract gear (i.e. one pot) into an AG set-up. No alterations to existing equipment, no risk. I just jumped straight in and started doing it.

I own an esky and I reckon I could make a braid in the same time that I made my bag, but for some reason BIAB stood out as the ultimate risk-free piece-of-piss project. I'm learning about all the gear and methods as I go and I may end up with another method as my favourite, but BIAB fast tracked me down that path.

Most people are comfortable with steeping grains by the time they consider AG, which is probably why BIAB stands out as more attractive than something equally simple like a braid or bucket-in-bucket.

I'm sure there are plenty of people like me who have been lured to AG by BIAB. For this reason alone it should be judged a success.


----------



## Sammus

Hi, sorry if its been discussed already (couldnt be bothered sifting through 47 pages ) But you must be able to reduce the cost significantly (ie the burner and stockpot) buy using a big food grade pail and a kettle element. Electric BIAB!  - would need to make sure teh bag sits off he element though I guess..

edit: actually, im certain I couldnt be the first to think of this, it seems like a pretty obvious thing to try and do


----------



## Hashie

Hey Sammus, there are people who do electric BIAB. Spillsmostofit is one that comes to mind, I believe he uses immersion heaters. Might be worth a PM if your interested.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

Yep - my FB Boiler gets heated with two 2400watt 'over-the-side' immersion heaters. More than enough energy falls out of them to get a standard sized brew looking like an annoyed lava pool and one day soon it will get tested on a double batch.

When the over-the-side heaters die, I think I will be installing fixed elements in that boiler along with a false bottom, just because I can (and it works out a bit cheaper if you're happy boring more holes in your boiler).

I believe Poppa Joe might make his beer in a plastic bucket. I just can't bring myself to boil in plastic...


----------



## Zizzle

Sammus said:


> Hi, sorry if its been discussed already (couldnt be bothered sifting through 47 pages ) But you must be able to reduce the cost significantly (ie the burner and stockpot) buy using a big food grade pail and a kettle element. Electric BIAB!  - would need to make sure teh bag sits off he element though I guess..



Justing looking through my post history I find:

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...c=12282&hl=

A bit later I posed this:



> I've just started BIABing and my setup cost about $150.
> 
> Breakdown:
> $100 - 60ltr ally pot delivered (see allquip or kenscom online)
> $18 - two electric jugs from the warehouse
> $15 - brass tap from bunnings
> $6 - material for the bag
> 
> AG beer & a world of new tastes - priceless.



I think I was about the 3 guy doing BIAB after Pat and jimmysuperlative... Pat was living just up the road at the time.

Hey looking at the dates... I've just passed my 1 year anniversary of AG brewing.


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## SpillsMostOfIt

Zizzle said:


> Hey looking at the dates... I've just passed my 1 year anniversary of AG brewing.



That's got to be worth a celebratory glass of AGHB...


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## Thirsty Boy

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> That's got to be worth a celebratory glass of AGHB...



So then... you can hoist a celebratory glass of AGHB that you brewed by EBIAB (and maybe NC) in your FBpot .... the acronyms here are worse than APEC


btw ... happy first anniversary zizzle.

Thirsty


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## hairofthedog

thanks heaps pistolpatch i just tasted my 1st biab & it is magic its a pale ale og 1050 fg 1010 without your biab post and id still be using a coopers can & dextrose your a legend


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## Adzmax

I know it's said to use Swiss Voille but I just popped into Spotlight and they didn't have any, that and it's around $50 a meter. Does this sound right!?

Can Muslin Cloth be used instead or is it to course?


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## jimmysuperlative

Adzmax said:


> I know it's said to use Swiss Voille but I just popped into Spotlight and they didn't have any, that and it's around $50 a meter. Does this sound right!?
> 
> Can Muslin Cloth be used instead or is it to course?




There has to be some mix-up Adzmax ...I got enough for two bags, and plenty left over for about 12 bucks! :blink:


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## Hashie

Good on you Hair of the Dog, there'll be no looking back for you now.

Adzmax, I only paid ~$7 per metre for voile at Decorama and have seen Swiss Voile for ~$6 at Spotlight. Muslin is to coarse and doesn't allow for good drainage or good flow while mashing.


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## Adzmax

Yep I reckon, maybe it depends on the type of Swiss Voile. Think I'll pop down to my local Spotlight rather that the Frankston store 

I picked up some Muslin anyhow, I'll just use that for steeping grain or hop socks 

Cheers!


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## Thirsty Boy

Someof the Voil is 100% cotton and is fancy wedding dress material... they might have thought you meant that.

You want to make sure its the 100% polyester stuff, it should be a very fine mesh, the finest they have, but you should still be able to visibly see it as a mesh (if you squint) and pick up some nice 100% polyester thread while you are there... tough stuff.

I reckon the muslin would probably work OK ... I just dont know about durabilty over repeated brews.

Come to G&G on the 22nd for the Demo; and you can run your grubby fingers over Spillsmostofit's bag :blink: so you know what to get.

Cheers

Thirsty


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## Adzmax

Now worries, cheers. Will check it out


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## poppa joe

Spillmostofit....
Only done one BIAB...."Easy Peasy"...in a plastic 30 lt+ HDPE bucket..as per"cd's old electric boiler"
Google it anyone ...good advice....Have since obtained large electric ss copper..and a few other things..
Can go either way..with things i have...BUT HERE IN NOWRA CANT GET THE GRAIN...(At the right price)SO...Have to bide my time till then..
Thirsty Boy you hit the nail one the head...with my quote... :beerbang: 
Will definately do another BIAB when i get the chance..It is an easy and simple way to learn..
Then maybe i will try other ways..
CHEERS
PJ


----------



## The King of Spain

Thirsty Boy said:


> Not so unfortunately.. I think we are just at a dead lock of intractable disagreement.
> ........
> 
> Long live the difference, it make the world a more interesting place I suppose.
> 
> Thirsty



I drop in here somtimes to see the same debate happening

THere are a fair few BIABers now so can someone tell me how many gongs have been picked up at competitions?

Becomes pretty hard to argue with those things.

Cheers


----------



## Thirsty Boy

The King of Spain said:


> I drop in here somtimes to see the same debate happening
> 
> THere are a fair few BIABers now so can someone tell me how many gongs have been picked up at competitions?
> 
> Becomes pretty hard to argue with those things.
> 
> Cheers



I don't think anyone has owned up to winning anything with a BIAB batch.. they might have, but I haven't noticed anyone saying so.

I think a few BIABers might be entering some comps this comp season.. If all goes to plan I will be entering a few beers in different comps this year. Both BIAB and not...

If I win anything whatsoever for beers made with either method, I will probably fall off my chair.

Fingers crossed


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

Thirsty Boy said:


> If I win anything whatsoever for beers made with either method, I will probably fall off my chair.



It takes less for some people than others...  

I think that as well as when the right season comes around, it requires people to be comfortable that their brews are worth sending into a competition. For me, I want to get rid of all the faults/issues *I* can find in my beer before I send it in for formal judging (I believe there are several issues that are just my own dickheadery rather than the method and I want to get rid of them.). Before then is pointless in my view. But, I fully expect it to start happening before too long.


----------



## rwh

poppa joe said:


> BUT HERE IN NOWRA CANT GET THE GRAIN...(At the right price)


Er, you have postal delivery there, right? Why not get a 25kg sack from Ross at craftbrewer? Postage is like $7.50 or something.


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## Adzmax

Yup, love Ross's service


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## apd

Adzmax said:


> I picked up some Muslin anyhow, I'll just use that for steeping grain or hop socks



Muslin is fine. I use a 2m piece, doubled over. No sewing required. I just drape it in the kettle and secure it to the lip with a few wooden clothes pegs.

I've never felt comfortable using something made of polyester. A quick search around the web does mention food safe polyester but I doubt polyester material in a fabric shop, designed for curtain or dress making, is going to be food safe.

I think the muslin I got was $4/m from a fabric shop on Elizabeth St, Melbourne.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

apd said:


> Muslin is fine. I use a 2m piece, doubled over. No sewing required. I just drape it in the kettle and secure it to the lip with a few wooden clothes pegs.
> 
> I've never felt comfortable using something made of polyester. A quick search around the web does mention food safe polyester but I doubt polyester material in a fabric shop, designed for curtain or dress making, is going to be food safe.
> 
> I think the muslin I got was $4/m from a fabric shop on Elizabeth St, Melbourne.



I've never felt comfortable wearing something made of polyester... :blink: 

I gave mine a few good soaks in Sodium Percarbonate solution and a good rinse or two before using it. I figure that polyester is polyester is polyester and the important thing is the temperature we're using it at. If we were boiling in it, I might think differently...


----------



## apd

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> I've never felt comfortable wearing something made of polyester... :blink:



Amen to that!



SpillsMostOfIt said:


> I figure that polyester is polyester is polyester and the important thing is the temperature we're using it at. If we were boiling in it, I might think differently...



Yes, temp is critical in this but still, thinking it "should be right" doesn't cut it for me. So many things are found out _later_ to be detrimental to our health. Thalidomide anyone? Sure, that's definitely OTT but you get my point. 

Why are we happy to devote so much energy to defending/promoting a particular method of brewing beer but then put ourselves at risk by using potentially dodgy equipment?

Given I have a choice (muslin), I'm avoiding polyester.

That being said, I'll still enjoy the beers in the next case swap, whatever method/equipment was used. :chug: 

Andrew


----------



## Kingy

Everything that comes into contact with our bodys is bad for us, everything the scientists find out about toxins thats bad for us etc.etc turns out to be wrong in years to come. 
Off food, bad beer, dirty door handles, aluminium, dog shit, dog jerms, dog slobber, sunlight , radiation from microwaves,"polyester",petrol fumes,paint and the list goes on and on and on and weve all been involved in it and yes it may be bad for us
but
im here for a good time not a long time and im sure many other people think like this as well  
lifes to short to worry about the unknown


----------



## blackbock

rwh said:


> Er, you have postal delivery there, right? Why not get a 25kg sack from Ross at craftbrewer? Postage is like $7.50 or something.



Wrong. You won't get 25kg of anything posted for a start because Australia Post doesn't accept over 20kg.
Courier rates from QLD to Nowra are $20+. I know because I've paid it several times.


----------



## dr K

You know..its been a lot of effort for me to keep my mouth shut for the how many months on this BIAB thing and I feel that I have done well.
Now the Kraken has awoken it will spread over a couple of posts.
# 1


> THere are a fair few BIABers now so can someone tell me how many gongs have been picked up at competitions?
> 
> Becomes pretty hard to argue with those things.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> I don't think anyone has owned up to winning anything with a BIAB batch.. they might have, but I haven't noticed anyone saying so.



and



> think that as well as when the right season comes around, it requires people to be comfortable that their brews are worth sending into a competition. For me, I want to get rid of all the faults/issues *I* can find in my beer before I send it in for formal judging (I believe there are several issues that are just my own dickheadery rather than the method and I want to get rid of them.). Before then is pointless in my view. But, I fully expect it to start happening before too long.



Sure, there are winners at comps but the main reason for comps and the main reason for entering a comp is for feedback from the judges. If you want to make better beer then put your beers in comps, the judges are not told whether the beer is kit and kilo or a triple decoction all mash brew,let alone a BIAB, they are simply told "Entry 128, an American Pale Ale"
Most judges have had years of experience and since the successful introduction of the BJCP programme here in 2004 with our first exams in 2005 there has been an increasing number of well trained and importantly peer assessed judges, these guys and girls actually do know their stuff and are there to provide feedback on ways you _might_ improve your beer.
You have an issue with your beer, and you have a possible solution, fine, but surely you would be helped if 3 other brewers, three other judges thought that they found the same issue and hopefully give you some decent feedback..to say "hops wrong for syle" may be true but to say "a better hop for this style is a noble variety such as Hersbrucker" is better.
Do not expect the world, those judging sheets are not very big and those judges are pretty full on assessing, but please..enter some (hopefully BJCP sanctioned) comps. 

K

more to follow


----------



## dr K

#2
There seems to be an on-going debate over this BIAB thing.
Question:
For the BIABERS only
Do you BIAB to make better beer, and does BIAB do so ?
Do you BIAB to reduce the number of processes in brewing and does BIAB do so?
And if it does reduce the processes what are they and do you also save time?

As I understand it (and I may be wrong, perhaps my data is out of date) the BIABER has the following procedure.
The BIABER (or Full Volumer) uses a large and very strong voile or such grain bag into which the entire grist is poured.
This is suspended in a large vessel that will later be the boiler with a quantity of mash temp water (say 70 strike) that equals the total amount used by an old fashioned masher for both the mash and the sparge, allowing for losses from either method.
After 60 minutes (or Lateline in my case) the bag is hoisted up and allowed to drain (I will not mention squeezing or other possible tannin extraction routes), just drain.
Everything form here on in proceeds as a normal mash brew, boiling, hopping, cooling and such.

I pointed out, in some long and perhaps rambling, perhaps technical posts many months ago that very high liquor to grist ratio will result in a far more dextrinous wort than a standard mash (read them). NOW..if I were wanting to make a Lambic I would do all I could to produce a dextrinous mash but were I to make a kolsch then I would want quite the opposite !
I also pointed out in about my last post on the subject that you were perhaps almost there.

Forgetting efficiency (even 10% here or there makes little difference, you can concentrate or dilute if you want) there are very few reasons, so few that none come to mind, why if I were to suspend a voile sack of grain in my boiler, probably sitting on the bottom for a flatter profile so its lowered rather than suspended, into say a 2.5 or 3:1 liquor (to grist) volume of water at strike temp, do the mash thing, _I_ would then take off the sweet wort but thats just me, add the rest of the hot liquor in one go, let it sit awhile then lift and drain the bag and possibly add the sweet wort first runnings back that I would have markedly different wort from that I may have produced from standard mashing.
Would I do it ..no, I love sparging, I love that gentle flow of wort.
Would I encourage other brewers to do it ..no..but that is for reasons rather than will it will probably work.

K


----------



## jimmysuperlative

dr K
In answer to your question ...I BIAB to make better beer, and I believe I do!
I'd probably still be brewing kits if it wasn't for this method ...and while producing reasonable beers, I wouldn't have been able to make the quality beer I currently enjoy as a BIABer.

Are the beers overly dextrinous? I don't think they are. 
Did BIABing make AG brewing accessible for me? Yes!
Is the method any better (or worse) than other methods? ...here is where the debate becomes a bit like religion or politics or footy teams. 

It takes a real shift in paradigm to move away from what you know and believe is best.

For now, that's the case for me and others like me who caught the wave that is BIAB. I tried it, I liked it, I'll stick with it for now ...but, I do appreciate the contributions to both sides of the debate because it keeps us thinking and learning and willing to consider new alternatives.

 :beer:


----------



## dr K

> dr K
> In answer to your question ...I BIAB to make better beer, and I believe I do!
> I'd probably still be brewing kits if it wasn't for this method ...and while producing reasonable beers, I wouldn't have been able to make the quality beer I currently enjoy as a BIABer.



and that, really, is what its all about...
"making better beer than you would have otherwise been able to"

That said, you could use exactly the gear that you have, mash at a 3:1 L2G then top up..
Would it make a better beer?
Your call...


----------



## Thirsty Boy

DrK

The topping up thing was mentioned as a possible way to BIAB at "normal" L:G ratios quite early on in the piece.. . I've always just assumed that there are a few guys out there doing it that very way.

The only reasons why not would be: 

Well - now you need a separate vessel to heat up your top up water in. Defeating at least partly the goal to keep the equipment to a minimum. But its not like there are rules or anything, so I imagine that someone out there is doing it, or might try it.

You could just top up with Hot tap water, and that would be really easy. If you filter through a carbon filter to remove chlorine etc that complicates it slightly, but not insurmountably.

So there is a con side, but its not all that hard to get past. If it makes people feel better I cant see any reason why people wouldn't do as you suggest.

I suspect the main reason that not too many people are bothering with it though, is because despite the very good arguments that people continue to make as to why the large L:G ratio (and other things) will detrimentally effect the quality of the beer.. it just doesn't seem to work out that way in practice.

I have (as unfortunately self flattering as it sounds) a fairly good palate, which is fairly well educated and fairly well experienced across a wide variety of beers and beers styles.

I have also tasted beers produced by four different BIAB brewers (including myself) and the beers simply do not display (as a trend) the faults that the theorising says they "should" display.

*BIAB is not inefficient* - High 70% range isn't bad by any standards. up to high 80% range if you choose to dunk sparge and/or squeeze (which of course does not extract tannins. There is no reason why it would)

*The beers are not overly sweet nor dextrinous (not that they are the same thing)* - my last BIAB finished at 1.007 and I have regularly tasted quite "dry" BIAB beers with FG's at or below 1.01

*The beers are not overly Dry from worts that are too fermentable* - Had brews with lovely med/high bodies and FG's top match. Strangely enough, usually because this was what the brewer intended.

*The beers do not suffer unusually from clarity or haze issues* - Oh yeah they get it, but in my brewing at least, no more regularly than non-BIAB brews. I get clear ones and I get hazy ones... still trying to work that out in ALL my brewing. And I have seen the same in other people's brews

*The beers do not seem to suffer from stability problems* - at least not inherently. My BIAB brews seem to be stable for as long as my non-BIAB brews, and the other "aged" BIAB brews I have tried don't seem to have been suffering from pre-mature staling. That said, I don't know if that holds true beyond about 6 months. Thats as old as I have gone so far. But I have several "aging" batches that I intend to try out over the next several years .. unfortunately only time can answer this one properly.

So while we all appreciate that people have difficulty believing that what they are "sure" will happen - in fact doesn't it gets a little tiring repeating it again and again. The things people say will happen just don't happen... please believe us.

And so the whole "Are you trying to make Better Beer or just do it easier/faster cheaper..." thing is just a null argument as far as I am concerned. In fact its really a kind of a put-down for me at least. Why would people think that I would be any less concerned about making the best beer I can than they are? Or that I might "think" that the beer is good, but aren't capable of the level of tasting that they are and really the beers are lousy? 

I'm a passionate homebrewer, I want to make the absolute best beer I am able to - without exception. Cost, time, effort and resources have not yet proved to be an influence on my desire to brew the best beer I can; and I don't imagine that they will become an influence in the future.

And yet I brew a number of my beers via BIAB - I do so because the method is simple, elegant and time efficient. If I thought for one second that BIAB had a negative effect on the quality of my beers - It would be dropped like a hot rock. But I don't believe that.

I have heard plenty of opinion, but seen no evidence that convinces me that BIAB is anything other than a completely legitimate alternative way to produce wort. Neither better nor worse than any of the other wort production methods. Merely possessed of different attributes. And thats why people should or should not choose BIAB. because its features suit the way they want to brew. NOT because it is "better" or "worse" at producing great beer. It is neither.

Choose batch over fly, choose single infusion over step, choose HERMS over RIMS, choose a bag over an eski, choose electric over gas, choose stainless over aluminium, choose chill over no-chill, choose braid over a false bottom, choose pumps over gravity... and more and more and Visa Versa to all of them.

None of those choices is about the quality of the beer, they are all about the preferences of the brewer. As they should be.


That is of course unless someone comes up with a NEW thing to be concerned about with the method... hell, I really want to hear from them. I'm just sick of going over and over the old disproved ones.

Sorry to rant (again  ) I think I might have a slight "probem" :blink: 

Thirsty Boy


----------



## Hashie

Well said Thirsty, I agree with all you say, but would like to add some of my observations.

To date I've made 16 BIAB brews. I had a couple with haze, but after the 5th brew I started adding my specialty malts at mash out. Since doing this I haven't had a hazy beer...so far.

On the L:G ratio debate. If a 3 vessel brewer uses ~35 litres of water to create ~23 litres of wort and all of that water passes through the grain (bed) at some stage. Why is full volume (BIAB) mashing different? To my thinking, if I mashed 5 kg of grain in ~15 litres of water (instead of ~35), when I removed the grain (bag) there would be a greater amount of sugars left in the grain due to the concentration of the low L:G. This would mean that I would then need to sparge the grain with the remaining volume of water to extract the sugars. Where as, with a full volume mash the grain is being rinsed by the same volume as a 3 vessel system, just with less steps.

I can't see the problem.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Its about the enzymes and the way they work during the conversion phase of the mash Hashie. Once you are up to the sparge stage and adding the "extra" water in a conventional system.. the assumption is that conversion will be all over bar the shouting and so the added volume wont have an effect.

On the face of it, most of the issues that people think will occur with BIAB probably "should" occur. I certainly expected them to appear in one way or another. I've been quite surprised at the fact that the full volume mashing process has turned out to be as robust as it actually has; pleasantly so.

I'm quite chuffed that what I suspect most of us thought would be at best a useful stepping stone into AG - has turned out to be a seemingly solid alternative brewing method without apparent drawbacks or limitations. One that has the bonus of being (arguably) the cheapest and easiest way for a new brewer to get into AG.

I reckon that's pretty cool.

Thirsty


----------



## dr K

Apologies for the "ransom note" cutting from more than one post, but all from this thread..


> DrK
> 
> The topping up thing was mentioned as a possible way to BIAB at "normal" L:G ratios quite early on in the piece.. . I've always just assumed that there are a few guys out there doing it that very way.
> 
> The only reasons why not would be:
> 
> Well - now you need a separate vessel to heat up your top up water in. Defeating at least partly the goal to keep the equipment to a minimum. But its not like there are rules or anything, so I imagine that someone out there is doing it, or might try it


 From the BIAB Bible


> BIAB is what we might call a full volume method of brewing where all the water is added at the beginning so that mashing and sparging occur at the same time. A simplistic analogy is that of making an instant coffee. In traditional brewing, you add a teaspoon of coffee and a third a cup of water. Stir it and then either add the remaining water in one or more hits (as in batch-sparging) or trickle the remaining water in slowly (as in fly-sparging.) In BIAB all the water for your coffee goes in first and then you stir.



I digress, but, when I brew beer I don't add coffee and when I brew coffee I don't use instant (coffee).
When I brew beer I heat my sparge water in a 12 litre stock pot I have had for years, I used to use a 40 litre urn but it broke..sometimes I might use a 6 litre pot, I cook a lot and have a lot of pots, for me its not an extra vessel and I would hope that for most it would not be either..soup by week, beer by weekend !



> You could just top up with Hot tap water, and that would be really easy. If you filter through a carbon filter to remove chlorine etc that complicates it slightly, but not insurmountably.



One of the reasons we sparge at around 72C is to wash those sticky sugars off the grist, legal hot tap water is lower than this (60C not sure), it cools in transfer and I would imagine having been through an (uheated) carbon filter would reduce the temperature again but you are correct, it is not, even after filtering insurmountable..you could always put in a big pot and heat it up 



> I suspect the main reason that not too many people are bothering with it though, is because despite the very good arguments that people continue to make as to why the large L:G ratio (and other things) will detrimentally effect the quality of the beer.. it just doesn't seem to work out that way in practice.



No argument with that..I cannot think of a single BIABER whose beer's quality has dropped since he/she changed.
The point, and the only technical point that I have been making is that the L:G _does_ matter, if you are happy with the results that you are getting from an abnormally high L:G then fine and I have no doubt that the beers are excellent, but to dismiss such a basic and well held concept is at the least arrogant.



> Its about the enzymes and the way they work during the conversion phase of the mash Hashie. Once you are up to the sparge stage and adding the "extra" water in a conventional system.. the assumption is that conversion will be all over bar the shouting and so the added volume wont have an effect



Yes!..it is all about the enzymes, two in particlar, alpha and beta amalyse, and how these two enzymes work is dependent not just on temperature but on L:G, even in the "standard" range of say 2:1 to 3:1.
Now I am not saying, nor have I ever said that BIAB will not work, nor am I or have I said that the beer resulting will be crap (for a start I have not tasted one !!) I am and have been stating well established facts.
Good luck and good beers


----------



## Kai

While at the Riverland field day today I found something that might be useful for BIABers wanting to scale up a bit - see attached photo.

I took a brochure. Someone tell Pat it's his if he wants it


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## deadly

Hiab for Biab? :blink:


----------



## Fents

Kai said:


> While at the Riverland field day today I found something that might be useful for BIABers wanting to scale up a bit - see attached photo.
> 
> I took a brochure. Someone tell Pat it's his if he wants it



Dont know about the crane but i'll take the super big blowup gas bottle in the background :lol: never run out of gas again...


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## the_fuzz

Hey guys,

I'm keen to give BIAB a go this weekend :super: 

I made it up to about page 25, then had to leave work, Can someone point me to the latest excel sheet for BIAB

BTW, how to I work out how much grain/water I need for a 11.5l ferment


----------



## poppa joe

Good work there PP ehhhh SORRY THIRSTY...  
My first and only BIAB was cloudy...used some wheat...
Didnt know what i was doing....BUT it was "EASY PEASY"...
GUNNA try again...Maybe give both ways ago..So i can comment..?
CHEERS
PJ
Gotta Get some grain but....?????????? Somewhere round here.....


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## Thirsty Boy

Whats_Wrong_with_Hahn said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I'm keen to give BIAB a go this weekend :super:
> 
> I made it up to about page 25, then had to leave work, Can someone point me to the latest excel sheet for BIAB
> 
> BTW, how to I work out how much grain/water I need for a 11.5l ferment



We can work backwards from your 11.5litres

Lets say you are going to lose a litre to trub in the form of hops and break material 11.5 + 1 = *12.5*

You're going to want to boil off at a rate of about 15% of the starting volume of the boil (1 hr boil) and 12.5 is what will be left so 12.5 = 85% of *14.7*

You will lose about 0.5 litres of wort per KG of malt if you squeeze the bag, about 0.75 if you don't - some people think that squeezing the bag might be bad for the beer, so lets not do that. How much grain are you using? well a fairly normal beer would need about 5kg for 23litres and you are doing a half batch so lets say 2.5kg. So you will leave behind in your grain about 2.5 x 0.75 = 1.88 Add that to your 14.7 and you get *16.6*

*Call it 16.5 litres*

I'd be inclined to go in a little low at say 15litres, because at your batch size its pretty easy to just add a litre or so of water from the kettle when you finish the boil - or cooled boiled water to the fermentor. That way if you miss your gravity on the low side, you have the option to just leave out some or all of the top up water to help you hit your gravity. Of course, if you are high... you can just add more water.

As for the excel sheets - I don't know that they have been kept up to date... I suspect that what you have might be the latest version. Once you do one for two brews, you will probably realise why they have lapsed a bit... you dont really need them ! There are only one or two simple calculations for BIAB and I've just done one of them for you  

The other is strike temp .... I use promash and let it work it out for me, but I reckon if you were to heat your water to 1-1.5C higher than you want your mash to be, that would be OK.. If it comes in low; with the smaller volume brew, you can very easily and quite quickly add heat to the mash with your stove/burner. Just remember to stir it a LOT (gently of course) while you are heating and be careful not to over shoot. If you are adding only a degree or two... a nice low flame is plenty to get you there in a few minutes.

Have fun and good luck

Thirsty


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## Thirsty Boy

Hey DrK,

It seems we are slowly (and torturously  ) forging an understanding of each other. 

No one's dismissing the effect of L:G on the enzymes (Beta Am in particular), we all know that their activity is effected by L:G. Of course it is.

Its just that the effect hasn't turned out to be as big a factor in wort fermentability at the extreme end of L:G ratios; as you (and me) might have expected it to. At a guess... I'd say the difference between a standardly "thin" 3.5-4:1 ratio and a 6:1ish BIAB ratio... is probably less drastic than the difference between a 2:1 ratio and the 4:1

The effect turns out to be at a level, where it's still well and truly the junior partner to Mash Temp in determining fermentability. A degree or so's worth of tweaking your mash temp sorts it out... if needed.

When I began doing my BIAB brews, I decided to lower my mash temps by a degree or so to compensate... but i have drifted away from that because, counter-intuitively... my BIAB brews were turning out with less body than I wanted them to. So now I make no adjustments at all to my recipes when I transfer between my BIAB & my Standard 3:1 brews. The differences, although I'm sure they are there, are well inside the variability range that exists within the normal spectrum of my brewing results. I've (sadly) got much bigger issues in my brewing that I need to address before I can even try to track them down.

Oh... Just as an aside that you might be interested in from a technical perspective. I have been doing a bit of reading recently. I suspect that some of the reasons that the L:G ratios don't effect BIAB brews as drastically as perhaps we think they should.. is because we have only been thinking about the Big 2 enzymes... we've been ignoring Limit Dextrinase... which the more recent literature (not new, just more recent) is suggesting plays a much bigger part in conversion than its generally given credit for. I'm still not too sure how it all meshes together... but I reckon its got something to do with it.

What do you think? or am I way off track?

Thirsty


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## tcraig20

G'day blokes. Been reading this thread over the last week or so (gave up at about page 44, most of the nuts seem to have been out by there).

Certainly seems like an interesting way of going about it, simple, seemingly efficient and even I can understand it! Im pretty new to the whole HB thing. Actually going to bottle my first K&K on Sunday. I can see it being a relatively rapid transition to BIABing though. Im actually starting to regret buying so many tins of concentrate stuff now... 

A couple of things that I think I can add: for extra support/strength of bags I reckon (if you could get your hands on it) the blue nylon netting they make prawn trawler nets out of over the outside of the bag would be ideal, it can hold tonnes of prawns, so 10kg of grain shouldnt be too much to ask. Second, I see a few blokes are doing things outside. I reckon you could turn a hills hoist into a pretty effective winch fairly easily.

Cheers


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## Thirsty Boy

Hey James,

I like your Hills Hoist idea! how Aussie is that? Using a Hills Hoist to help you brew beer. The netting sounds like it might be an idea for those who are trying to brew "big" batches, or just for anyone who is a bit suspect on the sewing skills front.

Don't regret those tins of concentrate.... make beer out of them. You can make really good beer with a tin if you pay attention to the advice that you will find on this site.

If you decide you want to swap to brewing with grain, either by BIAB or another method, then the experience you will have gained from your kit beer, on fermentation and sanitation issues alone, will serve you very well indeed.

Actually, in my opinion (which I've never been shy about sharing :roll_eyes I would say that you will make a bigger improvement to the beer you make, by investing any extra time/money/effort into using better quality yeast with your kits and getting some control over your fermentation temperatures... I reckon that will give you bigger bang for your buck in quality terms than changing to AG.

Or you could do it all 

Cheers

Thirsty


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## wambesi

Hey Thirsty,

Couldn't agree more as I am in the same position.
I had seen this thread before but thought it was still a "normal" type of AG brewing and therefore out of my league until 2009 (2x interstate moves to come and lack of $$$) so had never looked at it, until someone mentioned it to me in another thread.

I am currently brewing kits and extracts but with my own special grains, liquid yeasts, hops and the like and must say I am liking them more and more since this site and I have quite a few tins still which will certainly NOT be wasted! but now after reading (and downloading) this thread and all attachments as well as the thread I found you talking in on the brewing network forum it seems I will be able to try out my first AG sooner than I thought - this november if all goes to plan.

It's great to see other methods and the like around, this hobby of mine is clearly turning into an obsession...does dreaming about yeast types and hops count toward that 

Anyway, re-reading it all again and planning to acquire a bigger pot and the fabric needed.

Thanks to everyone for bringing the AG scene closer to me!
You will all certainly be hearing from me in this thread again.


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## tcraig20

Thirsty Boy said:


> Hey James,
> 
> I like your Hills Hoist idea! how Aussie is that? Using a Hills Hoist to help you brew beer. The netting sounds like it might be an idea for those who are trying to brew "big" batches, or just for anyone who is a bit suspect on the sewing skills front.
> 
> Don't regret those tins of concentrate.... make beer out of them. You can make really good beer with a tin if you pay attention to the advice that you will find on this site.
> 
> If you decide you want to swap to brewing with grain, either by BIAB or another method, then the experience you will have gained from your kit beer, on fermentation and sanitation issues alone, will serve you very well indeed.
> 
> Actually, in my opinion (which I've never been shy about sharing :roll_eyes I would say that you will make a bigger improvement to the beer you make, by investing any extra time/money/effort into using better quality yeast with your kits and getting some control over your fermentation temperatures... I reckon that will give you bigger bang for your buck in quality terms than changing to AG.
> 
> Or you could do it all
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Thirsty



Thanks Thirsty. I tend to get carried away and run ahead of myself sometimes. I reckon it's going to be a process getting to AG, working from kits to partials to (eventually) AG. I reckon that Im going to need to "get my eye in" first, get an understanding of hops, grains and yeast. The easiest way to do that seems to be doing modded K&Ks. Ive heard a lot about K&K "taste", so I guess I'd better experience it for myself before trying to solve it by going AG (know your enemy or something like that I suppose). 

Its going to be a while off, if for no other reason than the old lady just got the credit card bill... Christ... "I thought homebrewing was meant to save you money! How the hell did you spend $400???" Imagine, if you will, hair curlers and a rolling pin. You get the idea


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## braufrau

JamesCraig said:


> Its going to be a while off, if for no other reason than the old lady just got the credit card bill... Christ... "I thought homebrewing was meant to save you money! How the hell did you spend $400???" Imagine, if you will, hair curlers and a rolling pin. You get the idea



Tell your "old lady" that AG is cheaper.  And BIAB is the cheapest way to get into it.
And even if your decide to follow a more conventional route later, the only bit of equipment you wont use is the bag.

What am I doing? Advocating AG when I stubbornly stick to partials.


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## SpillsMostOfIt

braufrau said:


> Tell your "old lady" that AG is cheaper.  And BIAB is the cheapest way to get into it.
> And even if your decide to follow a more conventional route later, the only bit of equipment you wont use is the bag.
> 
> What am I doing? Advocating AG when I stubbornly stick to partials.



I reckon that if you decide to go for one of those three-vessel systems, you might still be able to use the bag you bought/built as a liner for your mash tun. The value in that is that it might make your cleaning task a bit easier, which you will certainly appreciate... 

However, if you are prepared to give this process a good run, you may not bother with all that extra carry-on.


----------



## ikern

Hi All,

Well it's probably time that this AG virgin came out of the closet. I've been doing kit's and then extract + bits brews for about a year. My first attempts at getting my head around AG on this forum and others was quite difficult. I think this thread helped alot because there were some fairly fundamental questions raised about the BIAB process and also some comprehensive answers given. In other threads I have tried to read there appeared to be a lot of assumptions about 'assumed' knowledge.

Anywho.....popped the cherry a week ago and found that all in all the day (morning actually) went reasonably well.

I used a 40lt electric urn I scored for 10 bucks, and the bag my favourite mother-out-law stiched up for me. I rigged up a nice pulley off the eaves and found that when the time came to extract the bag that the loop round the top of the bag reached the pulley so I couldn't get any altitude on the bag. Had to stand on the table the urn was sitting on and drag the bag up by hand and hook the loop over the skyhook (damn that thing was heavy). Have changed my fastening process so that I can actually make use of the pully next time.

At the end of the mash I emptied the bag out in the garden beds and gave it a quick rinse as I planned to try to use it as a hop sock as I had read about somewhere here. Won't be doing that again !!. Found that after a little while into the boil when I tried to lift the bag a little, the bag appeared to be lined with some sort of coagulant (break material ??) and it actually retained a fair bit of the wort. Next time I'll just be chucking the hops in to the boil sans bag (or get a proper hop sock).

At the end of the boil I tried to whirlpool to get the break in one place so that I could drain in to my no-chill cube but found the break material didn't settle particularly well. As I wanted to make sure I didn't loose too much heat before transferring to the cube I ended up with a fair bit of break in the cube. I let this settle over night but still found I left a fair bit of wort in the cube due the break material. I should state at this point I didn't use any sort of finings. Just wondering what the other BIABer's have had success using?

A couple of other stat's from the brew (didn't take many as I was more concerned with the process) -

*started with 36lts in the urn ( had to let out a bit as the grain from the all-Amarillo bill was pretty hefty)
* mash temp held between 66 and 67
* ended up with 21.5 lts (because that's all the cube held) of 1056 wort. Not sure what that works out to for eff.
* currently humming away in the ferm fridge at 18 deg.

Cheers for all the great advice fellas.

Soz.


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## Hashie

Congrats on your first AG Soz, I'm sure you'll have most of the little stuff sorted in no time.

As for your question on finings, I use Irish moss at the rate of 1/2 teaspoon for the last 10 minutes of the boil. I generally get 21 litres of wort from 33 starting litres and lose ~3 litres to break in the kettle. And hop socks are great.


----------



## ikern

Thanks for the advice Hashie. I've got the schwartzbier planned for this weekend so I'll pick up some Irish Moss when I pick up the grain.

Cheers,

Soz


----------



## Sammus

Hi I was thinking of trying a BIAB system because I like making stuff and also for a small brewery (<10L batches). I was reading over the intro notes in the first post about making the bag. What do people make th draw string out of? The guide says everything should be nylon, then recommends a polyester 'thread' for a drawstring - surely it has to be some kind of cord of piping or something? and nylon? can someone elaborate on this?


----------



## braufrau

PP ...when are you gonna write an article for BYO on BIAB?


----------



## ikern

Sammus said:


> Hi I was thinking of trying a BIAB system because I like making stuff and also for a small brewery (<10L batches). I was reading over the intro notes in the first post about making the bag. What do people make th draw string out of? The guide says everything should be nylon, then recommends a polyester 'thread' for a drawstring - surely it has to be some kind of cord of piping or something? and nylon? can someone elaborate on this?




I ended up using 6mm polyprop rope. Way overspec I know but I can't help it, I'm German.

Soz.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Sammus said:


> Hi I was thinking of trying a BIAB system because I like making stuff and also for a small brewery (<10L batches). I was reading over the intro notes in the first post about making the bag. What do people make th draw string out of? The guide says everything should be nylon, then recommends a polyester 'thread' for a drawstring - surely it has to be some kind of cord of piping or something? and nylon? can someone elaborate on this?



Hey Sammus,

I dont think it really matters what you use, as long as you think its going ot be strong enough to take the weight; and the bags don't get all that very heavy if you use the Voile material (which is I believe 100% polyester rather than nylon)

The drawstring isn't particularly in contact with the wort and also probably doesn't get all that hot. So anything from fairly stout string to thin rope would do.

Spills is using some sort of poly string I think, not even as impressive looking as a shoelace, bt its strong enough for him to do a double batch.

Spills - what is it you are using??

Thirsty


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

Thirsty Boy said:


> Spills - what is it you are using??



Polypropylene blind cord from Bunnings. I *think* it is 3mm, but you can get a size either side of that, from memory. It's dirt cheap. It's not going to survive a factor one fall, but I reckon you could hang from it, so a bag of wet grain is nothing.

In other news, during the course of my latest batch I did a couple of different things that could be interesting from a procedural point of view.

I turned off one of my two elements immediately after my first flavour hop addition. I'm wondering if a stupidly vigorous boil might evaporate (or otherwise disintegrate) the hop flavour and aroma goodness.

I put a normal fermenter tap in my NoChillCube and drained the kettle tap to tap. To watch, it was just like standing in the Mountain Goat Brewery.

I used a hop sock available from the left-most advertiser on this site. This appeared to have not much effect on the total amount of break material in the bottom of my cube at the end, although it must have (or I precipitated a lot more cold break than usual).

I tapped out of the cube into the fermenter, but *not* through the fermenter tap. Shows promise, but I made a bit of a mess doing it and ended up with a bit less in the fermenter.


----------



## wambesi

Right place, right time...
Asking about pots today planning to go BIAB I just happened to be in the right place to be offered a 50L pot not to mention some other little pieces of kit and burners etc at almost half the cost of what I was going to pay for a new stainless steel pot!

Needless to say BIAB is now within sight. The other half is a textiles minor with her studies so almost all bases are covered.
Reading through the guide again it is mentioned you can get away with a 40L pot, looks like mine will boil 40L or so pretty comfortably, so before I say the big yes wondering if people can give me their advice, is this adequate for a BIAB brew?

Cheers


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Wambesi,

A 50L pot will be absolutely fine for a normal sized batch. Plenty of room to spare.

For a batch big enough to fill two Cornies... you would maybe just make it, but your pot would be filled right to the brim during the mash and you'd have to be pretty careful during the boil.. but do-able certainly.

Dont sweat it, there are a couple of shifty ways around the problem if/when you want to brew double batches.

For batches up to about 30litres... you are sweet and easy with a 50L pot.

Go for it

Thirsty


----------



## PistolPatch

Just popped in to update the Brewer register but while I'm here, here's a post I knocked up the other day that has a few pics for you....

*My New Bag*

Brewed two double-batches with a new bag last Sunday and it worked a treat. 

My kettle is 45cm in diameter and 45cm high so I made the bag with a 35cm diameter bottom, a 55cm diameter top and 55cm high.

Instead of a draw-string, I used elastic and this works very well to hold the bag around the kettle lip. For lifting I had 6 tabs sewn in. I had the drycleaners sew it all up and they did a superb job for about $25. The bag also took less than a minute to clean. Cool!

Here's a pic showing elastic and tabs...







Here's one showing a crazy lifting set-up using some clever devices I bought years ago. Ended up with a much simpler idea in the end (see below).






Another use for your skyhook is to suspend a hopsock as per the pic below.






*Lifting Ideas*

The end result of my lifting experiments (no pics sorry) was just to use two cheap SS carabenas (smaller than the one you can see in the hopsock shot above) in the manner that the diagram shows below.






Next brew, Im going to add another skyhook and carabena so as I can not only lift the bag vertically but horizontally as well. Hopefully this next diagram shows what I mean.






Back to more hibernating now and to working on a new brewing contraption.

All the best,
Pat


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Hiya Pat,

nice to see you pop back in.

Spills and I did a brew the other week and we used a stand for our kettle that had castors... allowed us to just slide the kettle out from under the bag. If you have the room to do it, it would save all the palaver of trying to get your bag to "lift" horizontally as well as vertically.

Either that, or a couple of bits scavenged from a sliding door assembly would give you a jerry rigged rail hoist.

TB


----------



## big d

Thirsty Boy said:


> I don't think anyone has owned up to winning anything with a BIAB batch.. they might have, but I haven't noticed anyone saying so.
> 
> I think a few BIABers might be entering some comps this comp season.. If all goes to plan I will be entering a few beers in different comps this year. Both BIAB and not...
> 
> If I win anything whatsoever for beers made with either method, I will probably fall off my chair.
> 
> Fingers crossed



If from what i hear is true i hope you didnt hurt yourself when you fell off your chair ThirstyBoy.

Cheers
Big D


----------



## Thirsty Boy

I was standing at the time... and I did have to sit down rather promptly or there might have been a fall. :lol:


----------



## Steve

Thirsty Boy said:


> I was standing at the time... and I did have to sit down rather promptly or there might have been a fall. :lol:




c'mon fess up.....wadda ya win???


----------



## Adamt

He won the mash paddle koelsch! (Apparently)

A delightfully delicate beer it was too. Bewdiful.


----------



## Steve

Adamt said:


> He won the mash paddle koelsch! (Apparently)
> 
> A delightfully delicate beer it was too. Bewdiful.




CONGRATULATIONS Thirsty :beer: 
Steve


----------



## mikelinz

Missed the G&G BIAB Brew day. Anyone else holding one or willing to open their brew day/brewery for us visual learners.

rgds mike


----------



## Thirsty Boy

mikelinz said:


> Missed the G&G BIAB Brew day. Anyone else holding one or willing to open their brew day/brewery for us visual learners.
> 
> rgds mike



There's a fairly good chance that Spills and I will be doing another demo next year sometime. Not sure when, but we have been invited back.

Thirsty


----------



## wambesi

Make it before May, moving interstate then! :excl: 

But I'll be well and truly into my own BAIBing by then, finally picked up the pot and slowly getting other little bits n pieces to help along the way and trying to get rid of my kits still in the cupboard. Still be good to turn up and see others doing it as well as meet alot of you.


----------



## Maxt

As many club/state competitions have finished and the nationals are coming up, I wonder if any BIAB have medalled?

Flame warning::::: This is a genuine enquiry, not an attempt to build up or knock down BIAB::::

So BIAB users, have you entered, and what's the judged verdict? Any comments that would support or disprove the claims about BIAB's limitations?


----------



## Thirsty Boy

I entered two BIAB brews in Vic Brew and one in ANAWBS

The oatmeal stout in Vic brew was the only one of the three that I thought had any chance at all of a decent score... and it was the only one that got one..

Vic Brew - American IPA. 22nd out of 36 with 71.3 points and comments about being under bitter for style, too sweet, overly estery. Suggestions to choose a more attenuative yeast (I used S04) and to increase bitterness, reduce dry hopping and increase late kettle hops.

They were spot on too... I tapped that beer out of the fermentor three quarters of the way through just so I could enter another BIAB beer. If it hadn't been underattenuated then I wasted my time letting the rest of the batch sit in the fermentor for another 2 weeks 

Vic Brew - Oatmeal Stout. 7th out of 27 with 99 points. Comments about thin body and lack of mouthfeel. One judge said the roast was too harsh and overdone.... another it wasn't roasty enough.. oh well. Main suggestion was attention to recipe with all judges suggesting an increase in the amount of oatmeal.

I agree, the main thing I would improve on that beer is a lack of body. Need to up the oatmeal a bit and mash a little higher. Then it will be as slick and chewy as I was aiming for.

ANAWBS - English Barley wine. Dead last out of 6 with a pathetic 23.5 (out of 50) points. Haven't got judges feedback yet.. But I imagine it will say something about it being overly hot and needing another year of age. Its only a few months old.

I'm gonna have to say that this one hasn't got anything to do with BIAB no matter what the judges say. Its my first barley wine, I have never tasted an actual barley wine and it was made using some left over pale malt and a cake of Palm sugar... I only called it a barleywine because its strong. I have absolutely no idea if other than being in spec for OG, FG and ABV ... it bears any resemblance whatsoever to an actual barleywine. Not a lot apparently with only 23.5 points :lol: 

So the BIABs didn't do spectacularly well... but the stout did OK I suppose. And there were no _themes_ in the faults found by the judges.. nothing particular that stuck out as different to my other beers.

But, (except the Barleywine) they didn't come last either... so at least we know that its possible to make a worse beer than I can make with BIAB.

I know that James squire got a 3rd place in ANAWBS with a brew made on a Bucket in Bucket All in One system... thats a fair bit like BIAB

Anyone else with a happier tale to tell... 

Thirsty


----------



## hairofthedog

mikelinz said:


> Missed the G&G BIAB Brew day. Anyone else holding one or willing to open their brew day/brewery for us visual learners.
> 
> rgds mike



how you going mike im more than happy have a few guys over for a biab brewbbq if your intrested would have to be the 1st sat in december as im going on holidays for most of november ive got about 20 biabs under my belt & a heap of positive feedback about some of my pilsners so let us know if your intrested


----------



## wambesi

hairofthedog said:


> how you going mike im more than happy have a few guys over for a biab brewbbq if your intrested would have to be the 1st sat in december as im going on holidays for most of november ive got about 20 biabs under my belt & a heap of positive feedback about some of my pilsners so let us know if your intrested



Is that an open invitation........ 
Thats just down the road from work.


----------



## hairofthedog

wambesi said:


> Is that an open invitation........
> Thats just down the road from work.



yeah wambesi your more than welcome


----------



## danek

Greetings from the UK! I'm in the process of making my first all-grain, and first BIAB, beer. I've got fifteen minutes of the boil left, and so far it all seems to be going OK. Lifting the bag out of the kettle was a bit of an effort, but certainly manageable. The wort smells like wort, so I'm really looking forward to seeing how this comes out.

I'll post back in a few weeks when the beer's ready to drink. Thanks to everyone for the great guides and "how to" files. I really appreciate all the work you guys have put in.


----------



## tcraig20

Dave's home brew seem to be selling something that resembles a scaled down BIAB setup now:

http://daveshomebrew.com.au/index.php?page...rt&Itemid=1


----------



## Thirsty Boy

JamesCraig said:


> Dave's home brew seem to be selling something that resembles a scaled down BIAB setup now:
> 
> http://daveshomebrew.com.au/index.php?page...rt&Itemid=1




A nice little partial mash set-up. He's selling kits that include grain and extract. To make it BIAB and pure all grain ... you'd just make less beer and leave out the extract (sort of)

another reason why I never understood the BIAB knockers who talk about the material that makes it through the bag... partial mashers have been using grain bags for donkeys, the same stuff makes it through their grain bags, and partial mashes have won plenty of awards.


----------



## sathid

I did my first AG (BIAB) 2 days ago. It was fun 

One thing I was a bit concerned about, was that my stove struggled with the boil, and I only lost about 4L of volume (including what I lost from the grain). So I missed my gravity, as I was hoping to lose 7L of volume during the boil.

Should I just start with 27L of water next time, rather than 30L?


----------



## Thirsty Boy

sathid said:


> I did my first AG (BIAB) 2 days ago. It was fun
> 
> One thing I was a bit concerned about, was that my stove struggled with the boil, and I only lost about 4L of volume (including what I lost from the grain). So I missed my gravity, as I was hoping to lose 7L of volume during the boil.
> 
> Should I just start with 27L of water next time, rather than 30L?




Depends a little. You need a good boil. It has to be a nice rolling boil. Not jumping about the place, but there needs to be a good solid turnover of liquid from top to bottom.

Have a think about your volumes after you pull out the bag and let it drain/squeeze it (whatever you decide to do) In my BIAB brews I squeeze the bag and I lose abot 0.5-litres of liquid absorbed by each kg of grain. If you dont squeeze the bag but let it drain out well, then you will probably lose 0.75L/kg. Measure what volume you get after the draining of the bag, then you will know the starting volume of your boil.

If at the end of an hours worth of boiling, you have reduced your volume by 10-15% ... then your boil is probably vigorous enough. If not, then you might need to do something about your boil off.

So, having a guess at the details of your brew, I'll say you had about 4.5kg of grain and you took the safe route and didn't squeeze. So you would have lost about 3.4L to grain absorbtion, which means that you only boiled off 0.6L or about 2.5% - if you did squeeze and you only lost 2.3L to the grain.. then you boiled off 1.7L or about 6%

In either case, too low, and it indicates that your boil is probably not vigorous enough.

So, your options are 

- try to get a more angry boil, maybe try to put the pot over two burners. Or go wild and buy a stand alone burner. If you get it up to the 10-15% of your starting volume range boiling off per hour.. you are in the safe zone

- Hope that your boil is OK (it'll do for now, work on it as you get more experience) and adjust your starting volume as you suggested. Try this next brew and see how you go.

It'll take you a few brews to work out just what the hell goes on with your system. Once you work it out.. all you have to do is compensate for the results in your technique and recipe. Your first few brews might not turn out exactly the way you planned them, but they will still be fine beer. And you had fun.

So its all good

Welcome to AG sathid :beerbang: 

Thirsty


----------



## sathid

Thanks for the thorough reply mate. I had 4.5kg of grain, and I did the whole "twist the bag" thing, and then also poured the runnings from the bucket I dumped the grain bag in, into the pot. I definately think the boil was not vigorous enough. It was _only just_ boiling. But I did get a decent hot break (at least, I think I did ) and I had a LOT of cold break, which was not stopped by my sieve (I actually lost about 2-3L of wort due to avoiding pouring in the cold break).

The recipe was to produce 23L, which I did, but only because I left some of the wort behind to avoid the cold break going into the fermenter. In addition, there was 1L of water and 1L of starter that went into the brew. Was supposed to be 1.045 OG, ended up with 1.038 (after pitching yeast). 
So it's either going to be very dry, or a midstrength SNPA. lol

Bubbling like mad now tho  And my compost heap will love the grains and hops.


----------



## randyrob

Hey Guys,

Pat has kindly asked me to knock up some bumber stickers to get the awareness out there, 
what do you think?








Rob.


----------



## BrissyBrew

I have been avoiding posting let alone reading this thread for awhile. But after a quick skim read there are a couple of questions that make me scratch my head a little.
L:G ratio has been raised as a concern. But I was thinking about how the mash settles, that is if you are not constantly stirring what you end up with as a grain bed with hot liquor sitting above it. I admit that it seems the grain bed would be more watery than a really thick mash, but the grist does settle and I assume what you end up with is a grain bed at the bottom with one L:G ratio and liquor sitting above this. Meaning that the total L:G ratio does not really reflect the effective L:G ratio in the grain bed where enzyme reactions are taking place.

Lets looks at some thin mashes out there already, continental European decoction mashing up to 5:1 L:G (liquor to grist ratio). It is true at normal mashing temperatures weaker mashes give more fermentable worts, probably some anecdotal evidence of this by BIAG brewers from this forum. Beers coming out a little dry. Maybe adjusting the mash temps is a work around. Mashes made with 39% solids give worts with maximum extract yield, whilst mashes made with 16-32% solids provide the highest fermentables. BIAB seems to be pushing towards a 1:7 ratio so maybe mash temperature adjustments might be a way to overcome this, I also think due to people not stirring BIAB may actually have an effective ratio more like 1:4. How much water is floating on top?


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

Depending on how obsessive I am feeling, I will stir the mash somewhere between every five and 10 minutes throughout the mash. Certainly in the first 20 minutes, I stir a lot. I do this in an attempt to ensure that starches and enzymes continue to meet and interact and also to keep temperature as/where it should be - usually, every second stirring will be with an immersion heater. So, following BrissyBrew's theory, I have a variable L:G ratio. Because I DunkSparge(tm), I (currently) reserve around one third of my total liquid for sparging, leaving me with (taking my most recent brew as an example) about 4.6kg grain in about 23litres of liquid. (I can't give you good volume measurements due to the way I use my kit, but I reckon it's close enough for government work.)

I'm slowly jacking up my mash temperatures on my *cough* standard ales to make them a bit stickier - I'm currently at around 67-68degC.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

I have both stirred and not stirred. It probably made a difference, but not a startling one.

The problem I see with what you are saying Brissybrew, is that the enzymes dissolve throughout the whole liquid portion of the mash, so while the grist does indeed settle to the bottom, it only has contact with a much thinner density of enzymes. Of course, most of the starch should be dissolved too.

The low density of enzymes, plus the fact that Beta Am enzymes are bit protected from temperature degreadation when they are in a thick mash, and BIAB is the opposite, leads most people who "know" about brewing to conclude that you will get overly dextrinous wort due to the Betas petering out before they can do their job. They are of course wrong, they make sense, their interpretation of the science (fortunately for us BIABers) just doesn't match the results of actually brewing this way.

You're one of the first people to look at the method from the outside and conclude that the result will be an overly fermentable wort... a theory for which you can (and you have) build an equally convincing argument to the overly dextrinous crowd.

For mine... you are much closer to the mark than most. I think that you do end up with _slightly_ more fermentable worts from BIAB. But its hard to tell, most of the people who I know who do BIAB, mash at lower temperatures than I do, so regardless of their methods, I would expect their beers to end up with a lighter body than mine.

You summation that temp is a workaround is dead on.. temperature is just by FAR the most important factor in determining fermentability, L:Ghas an effect alright, but its second fiddle by a long way; and it is in BIAB as well. You just (as you would on ANY system) tweak the temps till you get it right.

On my non-BIAB system, it turns out that I don't really need to make any adjustment for temperature when I transfer my BIAB experimental recipes across. I was originally mashing a degree higher working on the assumption that the BIAB worts would be a bit more dextrinous, but it just ended up not being an issue.

Its kind of like anybody's brewery really.. If you are translating a recipe.. you just have to know your system. If your beers always turn out too thick.. mash a bit lower than the recipe... to thin visa versa. For a first go, BIAB is just not so different that you need to worry about "always" making an adjustment when you get a new reccipe, just make it. You have as much chance of hitting it on the nose as you do with any other brewing method.

For me, there are a couple of questions still to be answered about BIAB and its longer term results, but the fermentability thing is just a closed issue. It is no bigger or more difficult an issue to manage than it is when you are brewing using any of the dozen or more methods you might choose.

Thanks for the thoughtful input to the thread, its great to hear from people who have a really good grounding in the theory. 

Cheers

Thirsty


----------



## PistolPatch

Firstly just a quick thanks to ThirstyBoy. I reckon one of the best days for BIAB was certainly the day that Dan got his sewing machine out. While many of you have contributed so well here, I think the award for the most numerous posts of consistent high quality in this thread (and elsewhere) goes to Dan. He gets nowhere near enough thanks for the massive amount of time and thought he has thrown in here so good on ya Dan and thanks a heap mate. I think I can say that from everyone here.

*A Simple Way to Improve Efficiency In A Big Way*

I said I'd start a thread on this but I probably had too many drinks when I wrote that. I think a simple post is a much better idea and a morning one at that - lol!

While not all of you will be able to do the following, it is worth having a think on with the equipment you have. Here's what I did on my last brew which gave me an extra 2lts of wort (about an 8% improvement in efficiency.)

It simply involves tilting the kettle using your skyhook as follows...






Here's the process that applies to my set-up for a single-batch...

*The Chill*

1. End boil and turn on chiller.
2. Agitate frequently using sterilised paddle kept in the wort.
3. When below scalding temperature, tilt the kettle as high as possible.
4. Continue frequent agitation (this speeds up the cooling process.)
5. At chill end, let sit for 10 or 15 minutes before syphoning.

*The Syphon*

1. Insert syphon to just below the top of wort and start the syphon.
2. Gradually lower syphon until wort starts to become unclear and then lift it up a tad. Keep syphon in place and let kettle drain

*Other Considerations*

1. Double Batches: If double-batching, before you tilt the kettle, syphon off half of the batch to reduce the kettle weight. Tilt the kettle and then let it sit for 10 or 15 minutes before syphoning the remainder.
2. Auto-Syphons: Unfortunately the syphons being sold now don't work as the internal diameter of the hose is just too large. I have a new one and if I find a way of getting it to work I'll let you know.
3. Tap in Kettle: Not sure how the above would work for those who have taps in their kettle especially on a double-batch. I'm thinking that you could tilt your kettle so the tap outlet is high and then gradually lower it until the wort becomes unclear, then lift up a tad. Dunno about this especially as everyone's set-up differs.
4. Kettle Shape: This certainly works well with pots of large diameter but I'm unsure how much of a difference it would make for those who have kettles.
5. Safety: Of course, you don't want to be putting weight on handles that are weak. The Robinox pots are very solid though and will easily handle tilting the kettle with a single batch.

You can, of course, if you do want to eak every bit of wort out of a brew, also tilt your fermenter. Do the tilt away from your tap so that the tap sits on the high side. On draining, gradually lower the tap in the manner mentioned in 3 immediately above.

I think that simple mechanical ways like the above which give you high percentage improvements whilst also making your brewing easier are the first areas that should be considered by those keen on obtaining very high efficiencies. Other ways seem to involve more equipment and labour with only a slight reward.

As for the skyhook, if you don't have one, get one. I was unable to install one for most of my BIAB brewing due to the premises I was in. The double-pulley set-up ($6 each from any hardware) is truly wonderful and remember you can use it to hang your hopsock as well.

Wow! I think I actually wrote something informative. First time in ages - lol!

Spot ya later,
Pat


----------



## Hashie

Good post Pat, when I get re-settled and back into brewing, I'll give it a go and let you know how it goes.

Cheers

Thirsty and Spills deserve all the accolades they get, between the 2 of them, in Pat's absence, have been polite, informative and concise in their replies to questions from other brewers. 2 thumbs up.

Edit; accolades.


----------



## joshuahardie

JamesCraig said:


> Dave's home brew seem to be selling something that resembles a scaled down BIAB setup now:
> 
> http://daveshomebrew.com.au/index.php?page...rt&Itemid=1



I tried my first BIAB yesterday using a setup similar to the above link. due to size contraints i halved the batch size and then supplemented with a extract kit. so it is partial BIAB

Although i have read about hald of this thread i have a few questions.

1. once i have the grain in the bag do i shake the flour out of the bag that has been produced from the cracking of grains
2. after mashing when do i start timing my boil from. from the moment a rolling boil starts, or when a rapid boil starts, and then i can reduce the heat
3. i tried the wort once it was cooled in the fermenter, and it looked cloudy and tasted gritty. i assume this will fall out of suspension over time, but have i done something wrong, or can i do better next time somehow?

any help would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## ikern

joshuahardie said:


> I tried my first BIAB yesterday using a setup similar to the above link. due to size contraints i halved the batch size and then supplemented with a extract kit. so it is partial BIAB
> 
> Although i have read about hald of this thread i have a few questions.
> 
> 1. once i have the grain in the bag do i shake the flour out of the bag that has been produced from the cracking of grains
> 2. after mashing when do i start timing my boil from. from the moment a rolling boil starts, or when a rapid boil starts, and then i can reduce the heat
> 3. i tried the wort once it was cooled in the fermenter, and it looked cloudy and tasted gritty. i assume this will fall out of suspension over time, but have i done something wrong, or can i do better next time somehow?
> 
> any help would be greatly appreciated.



Josh,

I've only got 6 BIAB's under my belt so I am by no means an expert but I'll share what I know from my efforts. Perhaps some of the other more experienced guys will chime in.

1. I don't remove any "flour" from my grains as thats the stuff I want the enzymes to convert. Leave it in.
2. With my urn I get a layer of foamy scum start to build up as the temp rises. This layer starts to move around a little and then eventually the bubbles come up through this layer. I consider the rolling boil as started once most of this foamy layer has dispersed and I have the rolling bubbles coming up through the wort. Hope that makes sense.
3. The wort should taste quite sweet/bitter once cooled in the fermenter. What material did you use for your bag? This is quite important. It needs to be fairly fine like the swiss voile mentioned in numerous posts in this thread (plus some pics). From your description it sounds like your material may be too coarse and let too much of the grist into the wort.

Hope this helps.

Soz.


----------



## joshuahardie

soznewb said:


> Josh,
> 
> I've only got 6 BIAB's under my belt so I am by no means an expert but I'll share what I know from my efforts. Perhaps some of the other more experienced guys will chime in.
> 
> 1. I don't remove any "flour" from my grains as thats the stuff I want the enzymes to convert. Leave it in.
> 2. With my urn I get a layer of foamy scum start to build up as the temp rises. This layer starts to move around a little and then eventually the bubbles come up through this layer. I consider the rolling boil as started once most of this foamy layer has dispersed and I have the rolling bubbles coming up through the wort. Hope that makes sense.
> 3. The wort should taste quite sweet/bitter once cooled in the fermenter. What material did you use for your bag? This is quite important. It needs to be fairly fine like the swiss voile mentioned in numerous posts in this thread (plus some pics). From your description it sounds like your material may be too coarse and let too much of the grist into the wort.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Soz.



The bag material is swiss voile that i got from spotlight, i am not sure of the threadcount or anything like that, but the weave would hold back anything bigger than a grain of sand. 
The wort is cloudy and looks like muddy water, totoally differnt to the clear liquid in a fresh wort kit and the sample i tried tasted gritty?

hmmmm


----------



## ikern

joshuahardie said:


> The bag material is swiss voile that i got from spotlight, i am not sure of the threadcount or anything like that, but the weave would hold back anything bigger than a grain of sand.
> The wort is cloudy and looks like muddy water, totoally differnt to the clear liquid in a fresh wort kit and the sample i tried tasted gritty?
> 
> hmmmm



Probably grasping at straws here, but what temp did you mash at and for how long?

Soz


----------



## amita

For me, there are a couple of questions still to be answered about BIAB and its longer term results, but the fermentability thing is just a closed issue.

gday thirsty,I am curious to hear about your other questions you have, would you mind sharing them?

thanks amita


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

joshuahardie said:


> 2. after mashing when do i start timing my boil from. from the moment a rolling boil starts, or when a rapid boil starts, and then i can reduce the heat



Doesn't matter. As long as you do the same thing each time so you can increase your consistency, it is a detail, IMO.



joshuahardie said:


> 3. i tried the wort once it was cooled in the fermenter, and it looked cloudy and tasted gritty. i assume this will fall out of suspension over time, but have i done something wrong, or can i do better next time somehow?



It could be to do with how you got the wort from your kettle to your fermenter. If you gave the hot wort a big stir - creating a whirlpool - and let it settle for a while then carefully drew from the top of the liquid (for example), I would expect to collect a very clear wort. If you did what I did for a while and pour the whole bloddy lot into the fermenter or cube - hop trub, break material, dead insects and all - you might see what you're describing... Whichever way, gravity is a weak force but very persistent.

What to do depends on whether you choose to Chill or NoChill, I think.

What was your recipe for this brew?


----------



## Thirsty Boy

amita said:


> For me, there are a couple of questions still to be answered about BIAB and its longer term results, but the fermentability thing is just a closed issue.
> 
> gday thirsty,I am curious to hear about your other questions you have, would you mind sharing them?
> 
> thanks amita




More or less the same as you amita. Just need to really convince myself that there are no real long term stability issues. I'm mostly sure. I have a 4 month old stout and a 7month old (but crappy) barleywine. Neither of these beers is showing any signs of premature ageing. They are aging, but only at the rate I would expect.

I'd say the amount of care you take with racking and oxygen exposure is still going to be the biggest factor in how your beers age. But with a normal amount of reasonable care... I haven't noticed stability issues. If you aren't so careful... maybe BIAB will show up your lack of effort more than other methods.... who knows?

Apart from that, its just general quality. I've had plenty of good BIAB homebrews and a couple of very good ones, but haven't yet had a great one. But that needs to be balanced out by the fact that I haven't had very many "great" homebrews of any description. A few, but by definition, they aren't all that common. Who knows, its possible that BIAB will _never_ produce a "great" beer. The only way we will find out is over a period of time, by competition results.

If BIAB beers manage to win even one or two medals, then we know that the method is capable of producing beer at the top of the quality spectrum; and that puts all the debate to rest. If they never manage to win a medal at all... then that tells us that while BIAB might make good beers, its not a way to produce the "best" beers.

But thats going to take a bit of time to become evident, I wont be making any judgements inside of the next few years. Hell, I'm two+ years and 60 odd brews into my AG career and I only won my first medals this year (grand total of two so far!!) so its not like anyone should expect BIAB brewers to have produced award winning beers yet. Give it a chance, if they never do, fair cop - BUT on the other hand, the very first BIAB medal proves all the naysaying wrong.

I know how I expect it to turn out.

Thirsty


----------



## joshuahardie

soznewb said:


> Probably grasping at straws here, but what temp did you mash at and for how long?
> 
> Soz



I mashed at 67 degrees for 90 minutes


----------



## joshuahardie

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> Doesn't matter. As long as you do the same thing each time so you can increase your consistency, it is a detail, IMO.
> It could be to do with how you got the wort from your kettle to your fermenter. If you gave the hot wort a big stir - creating a whirlpool - and let it settle for a while then carefully drew from the top of the liquid (for example), I would expect to collect a very clear wort. If you did what I did for a while and pour the whole bloddy lot into the fermenter or cube - hop trub, break material, dead insects and all - you might see what you're describing... Whichever way, gravity is a weak force but very persistent.
> 
> What to do depends on whether you choose to Chill or NoChill, I think.
> 
> What was your recipe for this brew?



I think you are right about this. I chilled in a sink of cold water until the beer was 34 degrees, in this time i did stir and whilpool to get a faster chill, but i did pour all of the wort into the fermenter (albeit through a strainer to remove the hop trub. so i guess it will drop out of suspension in the fermenter, and i might as well add some finings to make sure.

Next time ill invest in a siphon tube and rack it that way.

As the recipe was a partial (due to pot size) i did BIAB with 14 litres, with 3kg of pale base malt. i didn't add any bittering hops. just 80gms of cascade near flameout. i added a can of coopers pale hopped extract and diuted the whole amount in the fermenter to 22l.
OG is 1052, and i plan to dry hop in a few days when most of the fermentation has finished.

Yeah it is a bit of a here and there method, but i really wanted to give BIAB a go. hopefully it will work out.

Thanks for the advice Spills
Josh


----------



## amita

gday thirsty

quote:
I'd say the amount of care you take with racking and oxygen exposure is still going to be the biggest factor in how your beers age. But with a normal amount of reasonable care... I haven't noticed stability issues. If you aren't so careful... maybe BIAB will show up your lack of effort more than other methods.... who knows?


I agree with you there thirsty,for sure one has to upgrade the efforts, cleanliness and etc, more methodical and organised.
one trick I learned was to let some CO2 in the fermenter/or racking vessel when it comes to filling bottles or keg,,as it is heaver than air it provides a flexible barrier and stops air getting into you wort.



quote:
Apart from that, its just general quality. I've had plenty of good BIAB homebrews and a couple of very good ones, but haven't yet had a great one. But that needs to be balanced out by the fact that I haven't had very many "great" homebrews of any description. A few, but by definition, they aren't all that common. Who knows, its possible that BIAB will _never_ produce a "great" beer. The only way we will find out is over a period of time, by competition results.


one thing that people dont include much is the recipe of beer,if you dont have a recipe that you know makes a good beer that you like you cannot expect that any method of brewing will change that,so how about brewing your medal winning brew( congratulations by the way!) 2 ways?side bu side, same ingredients just different methods and keep us informed of you findings??
that would be much aprreciated.

cheers and keep up the good brewing :icon_cheers: 

amita


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

amita said:


> ... one thing that people dont include much is the recipe of beer,if you dont have a recipe that you know makes a good beer that you like you cannot expect that any method of brewing will change that ...



In general, my best beers have been those that came from a proven recipe. There are notable exceptions (at both ends of the spectrum) of course. When I take a recipe that has won medals (plural) and brew it myself, the result is - as you would expect - better than a recipe I pull out of my arse. I find recipe formulation as much fun as the balance of the brewing, so I will (hopefully) continue to improve my skills in that area.

If the equipment was everything, everyone would make excellent beer once they purchased the Mr Excellent Beer Machine(tm). My feeling is that it comes well after recipe, quality of ingredients and the applied skill of the brewer.


----------



## amita

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> In general, my best beers have been those that came from a proven recipe. There are notable exceptions (at both ends of the spectrum) of course. When I take a recipe that has won medals (plural) and brew it myself, the result is - as you would expect - better than a recipe I pull out of my arse. I find recipe formulation as much fun as the balance of the brewing, so I will (hopefully) continue to improve my skills in that area.
> 
> If the equipment was everything, everyone would make excellent beer once they purchased the Mr Excellent Beer Machine(tm). My feeling is that it comes well after recipe, quality of ingredients and the applied skill of the brewer.




I agree with you there, im just curious the know more about it all,I see in the BIAB register that you use mixed methods?what are they?
and have you tried the same recipe as BIAB/mixed method compared to "traditional mashing" or otherwise methods?
would appriciate your findings or comments,

cheers amita


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

amita said:


> I agree with you there, im just curious the know more about it all,I see in the BIAB register that you use mixed methods?what are they?



I only brew BIAB. 'Mixed methods' refers to how I fuel the boil: electric for big batches and (stovetop) gas for small batches. I also usually NoChill big batches and kitchen sink dunkchill small batches. I usually naturally carbonate, but sometimes the devil makes me force-carbonate.

Being a Man Of Science, I don't have enough brews under my belt to draw any conclusions that I am comfortable publishing. I do hope to fix that problem, though...


----------



## amita

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> I only brew BIAB. 'Mixed methods' refers to how I fuel the boil: electric for big batches and (stovetop) gas for small batches. I also usually NoChill big batches and kitchen sink dunkchill small batches. I usually naturally carbonate, but sometimes the devil makes me force-carbonate.
> 
> Being a Man Of Science, I don't have enough brews under my belt to draw any conclusions that I am comfortable publishing. I do hope to fix that problem, though...





looking forward to hear from you when you are ready to share and contribute to get more insight into BIAB brewing,

thanks , amita


----------



## Thirsty Boy

amita said:


> . . . so how about brewing your medal winning brew( congratulations by the way!) 2 ways?side bu side, same ingredients just different methods and keep us informed of you findings??
> that would be much aprreciated. . . .



Thanks 

That experiment might be valid, but all I have to do is work out how to brew it consistently via ANY method first. I've brewed it 4 times - 1 was a sink job because I accidentally contaminated my fermentor with non-food grade silicone sealant, one was the "I like this beer"batch, the next was the Mash Paddle brew, the last was the one I have in the ferm fridge now... not so good, my mash stuck like glue, I couldn't do the steps properly and ended up doing an impromptu triple decoction. It hasn't' worked out fantastically and the FG is too high for my liking.

So - I have managed a 50% strike rate with this recipe on a "normal" system and have yet to brew any brew exactly the same twice via any method at all. I personally don't believe that side by sides prove anything at all if the beer is brewed on different systems or by different brewers.

Spills, Velophile and I tried to brew the same beer on our three different systems.. same ingredients, same mash schedule/temps, same boil and hopping regime - tried for the same fermentation temps. Three different beers. Mine and Spills were similar, but thats being nice about it, Velophile's was a completely different beer. Same recipe though.

The recipe isn't "proven" or "award winning" - the combination of the recipe, the system and the brewer is what achieves those things. eg: If your system always gives a slightly higher FG than an "award winning" recipe says it should achieve.. that makes neither the recipe or your system bad, it just means that you need to compensate by altering one of the two sets of variables.

A good recipe is only good if it makes good beer on your system... anything else is meaningless.

Having said all that, I use my small batch BIAB as my pilot system for trying out new beers, new styles and new recipes... the results aren't particularly different when I translate them to my HERMS but they aren't the same either.

Brew many times... thats the answer

Thirsty


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

Thirsty Boy said:


> Having said all that, I use my small batch BIAB as my pilot system for trying out new beers, new styles and new recipes... the results aren't particularly different when I translate them to my HERMS but they aren't the same either.




And yet, I am still trying to achieve the same result between my two BIAB systems. Brew the same recipe on the two and you get different beers. When I discovered this, I was initially very pleased because I brewed a nice beer, then grew disappointed with the realisation that I had to brew lots more to understand where the differences were coming from...


----------



## amita

Thirsty Boy said:


> Thanks
> 
> That experiment might be valid, but all I have to do is work out how to brew it consistently via ANY method first. I've brewed it 4 times - 1 was a sink job because I accidentally contaminated my fermentor with non-food grade silicone sealant, one was the "I like this beer"batch, the next was the Mash Paddle brew, the last was the one I have in the ferm fridge now... not so good, my mash stuck like glue, I couldn't do the steps properly and ended up doing an impromptu triple decoction. It hasn't' worked out fantastically and the FG is too high for my liking.
> 
> So - I have managed a 50% strike rate with this recipe on a "normal" system and have yet to brew any brew exactly the same twice via any method at all. I personally don't believe that side by sides prove anything at all if the beer is brewed on different systems or by different brewers.
> 
> Spills, Velophile and I tried to brew the same beer on our three different systems.. same ingredients, same mash schedule/temps, same boil and hopping regime - tried for the same fermentation temps. Three different beers. Mine and Spills were similar, but thats being nice about it, Velophile's was a completely different beer. Same recipe though.
> 
> The recipe isn't "proven" or "award winning" - the combination of the recipe, the system and the brewer is what achieves those things. eg: If your system always gives a slightly higher FG than an "award winning" recipe says it should achieve.. that makes neither the recipe or your system bad, it just means that you need to compensate by altering one of the two sets of variables.
> 
> A good recipe is only good if it makes good beer on your system... anything else is meaningless.
> 
> Having said all that, I use my small batch BIAB as my pilot system for trying out new beers, new styles and new recipes... the results aren't particularly different when I translate them to my HERMS but they aren't the same either.
> 
> Brew many times... thats the answer
> 
> Thirsty



thanks thirsty ,
I agree with the point you are making with the same ingr.diff system,I did an IAP using the recipe and method from the Brew Your Own plc, i also did it using a mini mash and the extracts to my own scedule and ended up with two totally different beers.
so it does come down to the brewers abilities to create a beer that he or she likes and if it is within the guidlines it might be a winner,regardless of the way its been brewed,so why are some people against the BIAB method? 
just curious,

thanks amita and yes Ill be brewing many times with pleasure


----------



## amita

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> And yet, I am still trying to achieve the same result between my two BIAB systems. Brew the same recipe on the two and you get different beers. When I discovered this, I was initially very pleased because I brewed a nice beer, then grew disappointed with the realisation that I had to brew lots more to understand where the differences were coming from...



sorry spills, forgot to include your name in my reply adressed to thirsty,
cheers amita


----------



## mikelinz

Have just done my first BIAB & No chill (in the fermenter now). I have a few questions and was wondering if this was the best place to ask or should I be using a different thread. Also i stumbled across a thread to BIAB recipes and can't find it again. anyone got the link.

rgds mike


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

mikelinz said:


> Have just done my first BIAB & No chill (in the fermenter now). I have a few questions and was wondering if this was the best place to ask or should I be using a different thread. Also i stumbled across a thread to BIAB recipes and can't find it again. anyone got the link.
> 
> rgds mike



I don't think it matters whether you post here or in another thread, but if you want a definitive answer, start a new thread. Just post away! 

The recipes don't change between multi-vessel and single-vessel brewing systems. If you like the look of a recipe, Bag It!

Remember that the business part of BIAB is wort preparation. Of the entire process (Readers Digest Version), ie: coaxing enzymes to convert starches to sugars then getting them into solution away from the cattle fodder, adding hops for flavour and bitterness and boiling like crazy to remove unwanted compounds and excess water, the only bit that is different between BIAB and traditional HB methodology is the enzyme/starch/sugar/cattle bit. Otherwise it is exactly the same and doesn't affect the recipe at all.


----------



## mikelinz

Thanks spills

Ist BIAB (only 2nd AG) Went well I think. Used the German black beer recipe from here . A couple of times the heat got away on me up to 70.2, used ice to bring it back down (decided pre boil a bit of ice wouldn't hurt). The pre boil SG was 1030 (how do I work out what it should be) and post boil was 1044 which is a bit short of the target 1055. So i wonder if it was the fact that the wort got too hot or did i just not boil hot/long enough or did I start with too much water. My initial volume was 33l in a converted keg, volume to cube 25.5 lost 2.5 in trub (via filter) prior to fermenter. So finish volume was 23L which should be about right to go into my 19L keg altho I might have to bottle a litre or two I guess. So what should I do to make it better next time, more boiling, less water or is it all about right??? Also I keep reading about efficiency - how do I work this out based on my results.

I have been to several club AG brew days and have tried an AG in a cooler (found sparging a pain) so all in all I am very happy with the BIAB process.

rgds mike


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

mikelinz said:


> A couple of times the heat got away on me up to 70.2, used ice to bring it back down (decided pre boil a bit of ice wouldn't hurt).



If you are throwing more heat at it during the mash, it is really important to ensure the mix is being stirred really well while the heat is on and to keep it close to what you are aiming for. If you get it too hot, you could end up killing off some of the enzymes which are converting starch to sugar and getting a result you don't want.



mikelinz said:


> The pre boil SG was 1030 (how do I work out what it should be) and post boil was 1044 which is a bit short of the target 1055. So i wonder if it was the fact that the wort got too hot or did i just not boil hot/long enough or did I start with too much water. My initial volume was 33l in a converted keg, volume to cube 25.5 lost 2.5 in trub (via filter) prior to fermenter. So finish volume was 23L which should be about right to go into my 19L keg altho I might have to bottle a litre or two I guess. So what should I do to make it better next time, more boiling, less water or is it all about right???



If you're going to do more of this, I recommend getting some computer software to help with this sort of calculation. The calculations aren't difficult and some people just do them, but I don't bother and just plug the numbers into the software and focus on the stirring and drinking and important stuff like that.

It sounds to me like you didn't extract as much sugar from the grain as you could have, but I wouldn't bother too much about that on your first shot. The question around quantity of water, boil length and stuff will get all sorts of different answers from different people, but I reckon it is primarily a matter of getting used to your kit and refining your process. The volume amounts sound to me like they are within coo-ee of what I get and so I wouldn't be worrying too much about that until you are more comfortable with what you're doing. 



mikelinz said:


> Also I keep reading about efficiency - how do I work this out based on my results.



Again, this is something I get from my software, but there are methods around that allow you to work it out manually. I think Mr Palmer details it in http://www.howtobrew.com/ It also depends on whether you're interested in how much sugar you extracted from your grain or in the total end-to-end efficiency of your brewhouse, which includes everything from the grain you spilled on the floor as you tried to get it into your mashtun/baggie through to the few centilitres you threw away when you were bottling.

In one sense, it is only of academic value or akin to comparing the top speed of motor vehicles when the legal speed limit is about half what yours can do. Very, very important to people who buy their grain by the cubic kilometre, but less so to the likes of you and me.

In short, I think that if you focus on getting a good solid mashing environment happening, you will see an improvement in extraction efficiency and another again if you try a mash-out, which is where you raise the temperature of your mash by 10 degrees or so at the end of the mash, but before you lift the bag, to help the sugars fall out of your grain.


----------



## kieran

Stating the bleeding obvious, I guess, is that it just comes down to consistency in absolutely everything. This goes to the yeast pitch rate, the age of the yeast prior to pitching - yeast log phase, fermentation temperature, mash temp, grain batch/age, milling (grind, and timing between milling and mash, hop alpha acids, quality variations between crops, then the obvious like timing (mash, boil, fermentation, conditioning, etc.) then serving,... ad nauseum.
There are ways to reduce this, and I guess as a _homebrewer_ we just need to minimise the inconsistencies that we introduce - as we can't remove everything without some serious investment. This goes for All grain and BIAB.

However, some of the great pleasures that I've gotten out of homebrewing, come from the mistakes I've made. So I don't think that I'd ever want the 'easy path' even if it were available.. because I've made some brilliant beers that I've really enjoyed drinking (I'm thinking an accidental variation of one of Charlie Papazian's Lager recipes I once brewed to celebrate the birth of my beautiful little daughter).


----------



## jordzan

gday

im only fairly new to extract brewing but after reading this thread which is awsome  thank you thank you, im very keen to get into all grain asap. ive found a bit of kit
that i like, a*Tobin 40 Litre Urn, Thermostat Control. * i was hoping to get some opinions on using this bit of kit for Biab brewing if possible. Seems like it would work 
great for diffrent temps etc, save some sanitising, gas bottles etc.

Cheers for any help guy's. 

Spec's
*Item No: **T40-T* 


 


[size=-1] 
[/size][size=-1]_Representative image only._[/size]​ *Tobin 40 Litre Urn, Thermostat Control*

*Trade Price: A$339.00 Each* 
_(Price includes 10% GST)_

*Features*
* Polished Stainless Steel, all welded construction.
* All edges are rolled for extra strength.
* Thermostatically controlled for adjustment through to boiling point.
* Protection against boiling dry.
* Non drip tap and insulated handles.
* Indicator light.
* Water Gauge glass
* Element wattage 3000W
* Made in Australia

Approximately 175 to 200 cups
Size: 550mm high x 360mm diameter
Weight: 7.0Kg.


----------



## jordzan

Sorry i didnt mean for that post to be so massive, im newbstastic allround. Forgot to ask, any recomendations for a place to buy the swiss voile at and which type they preffer.
cheers, soz again.


----------



## Kingy

swisse voile is available at spotlight for around 10 bux. Get the ivory colour or plain. If you get a coloured fabric the colours will leech into the beer.

As for the urn i think it would be ok . Im not experienced with urns but i think it would make your brew day fairly long as they take a while to heat up.

Im not even sure how they work ? :huh: do they have an element inside the pot (like a kettle)? If they do im sure it would burn the bag.

hope this helps,cheers

edit: You could get a aluminium pot from ALLQUIP for 100bux, a grunty burner for 150 (including regulater) from BEERBELLY and still have money left over. I get about 5 brews i think out of a 9 kilo gas bottle.

Definately better to do it this way IMHO


----------



## PistolPatch

Welcome to the forum jordzan :icon_cheers: 

Your post wasn't too long (check out this one ) - much better explaining yourself straight up rather than playing 20 questions I reckon.

Yours is a hard question to answer. Kingy brought up two good points for a start. If you look inside, can you see an element? If so, that creates some issues though you can get around that. Also, as Kingy said, it will be a lot slower to heat up than using gas.

Three other things that spring to mind are, "What is the cost of that urn?" Secondly but of less importance is the tap. You may have to use a hose clamp to clamp a hose to that tap when emptying your kettle. Thirdly, how will you chill your beer?

At 40lts, you would need to watch this urn well to avoid boilovers as it is only just enough to do a single batch.

The alternative and more well-know equipment is a stainless steel pot (as Kingy mentioned,) a gas bottle, a burner and a regulator. Allquip is a great supplier of the pot. Beerbelly brewing (that kingy mentioned) also sells these pots and may well be able to match or better Allquip's price. He has done so in the past from memory.

If you do decide to go this route then I think a great size pot is a 70lt as it does single batches without any worry of boilovers but also allows you to do double-batches down the track with not too much extra work. Other people would advise to get the biggest pot you can get but the size and weight and evaporation rate of these can sometimes be a bit over the top.

So mate, check out the prices on beerbelly and have a think on what you already have (eg gas bottle and regulator) before you go and buy the urn.

Look forward to seeing how you go,
Pat


----------



## Thirsty Boy

I know at least one BIABer who uses a just such an urn, he swapped from a gas fired set-up and loves it.

Fill her up set the temp and go and have breakfast and a shower, you know its not going to overheat; and your water will be at just the right temperature when you get around to getting back to it.

Better yet, fill it with nice filtered water the night before, put it on a timer and by the time you scratch your arse and stagger out of bed in the morning, your strike water is at temp and you can mash in before breakfast.

I'd be tempted to turn it off during the mash and only turn it back on if you are there and stirring, otherwise you will get nasty hot spots in the mash. But... if you strike at the right temperature and wrap a bit of camping mat or a blanket or whatever around that thing, then you probably wont even have to add heat during a standard SI mash.

Kingy is right though... check if the element is exposed, if it is, you will have to rig up some sort of false bottom out of a mesh or stainless cake rack, I wouldn't want the bag to be sitting right on top of an exposed element that was running. Element not exposed... it'll be fine without the rack/mesh.

I'm exactly the opposite of Kingy on this one, if you are willing and able to go with the electric Urn, thats the way I would go. One major piece of gear and the bag.... done.

As a bonus, like everything else in BIAB... if at a later date you decide to move on and make yourself a more traditional 3 vessel brewing system, this will be the ideal HLT and still give you the ability to heat your mash water on a timer and knock an hour off your brewday.

Thirsty


----------



## 65bellett

Jordzan, I currently BIAB using a 20 litre plastic pale with two 1700 watt elements taken from house hold kettles. I really like using an electric urn style system for BIAB because for me it makes it that little bit easier, all I need is a couple of power points and a couple of feet of bench space. The other advantage to this type of device is as Thirsty has already pointed out you can incorporate into a 3 vessel system when you choose to. When I am not using my pale/urn in BIAB I use it as a sparge vessel.

I do think that PP makes a good point about the tap though. You will need to put a hose on the tap so you can fill your fermenter.

65 b


----------



## ikern

Hey Jordzan,

A number of good pointers in the previous replies there. However, I can speak from first hand experience on what you are proposing. I also am botu-BIABing with a 40lt with 3000w element (but only paid $10.00 at a garage sale). If you want to preserve your heating element (unlike myself who is on his third), avoid heating during the mash.

I used an old stainless deep fryer basket with the handle cut of to keep my bag separate from the element which works fine. I also use the single camping mat to maintain a reasonable even temp. I was doing a brew late last year and had finished the mash and had cranked up the heat for mash-out when I noticed bubbles coming up through the mash that expelled smoke when they popped on the surface (rauch-pils anyone???? :icon_vomit: ). Thinking that it may have been a dodgy element due to being second hand I purchased another. 2 brews later the same again, that not-so-delicate smoky flavour.

I managed to rescue this brew (I hope) but what I found when I took the bag out and drained the wort was that there was a lot of starchy proteiny gunk in the bottom of the urn. This, combined with the dense grain bed sitting not far from the element, conspired to create very undesirable hot spots.

I have now invested in an over-the-side element which I use to make mash corrections and heat up for mash-out. I use both elements combined when heating to reach strike temp and also for my boil (I'm trying to find my haze cause and I get a nice strong roller with both elements).

With regard to draining, I actually found that one of the smaller dia food grade hoses from bunnings actually fits up the tap with the help of a little teflon tape round the top of the hose. As I just drain into a botu-cube, I'm not too worried about getting a high flow rate. I'll get around to putting a proper ball valve and tail in one day  .

Cheers & Beers,

Soz.


----------



## jordzan

Thanks heaps for your replies fellas this forum is top notch, my biggest worry atm is the size, i can only see myself planning to do single batches atm but 40L isnt going to cut it is it ? would i be wrong to say that i could need upto 38 litres to make a single 22litre batch ? if so that doesnt leave alot of room to play or make mistakes, probably more so of the later but like having a good laugh at my own espense so its ok  heh

Got a reply from Tobins, the unit has a concealed element which is great.The tobin unit is $340.0. which isnt much more than a 70 litre stainless steel robinox pot, i guess
youd need to get some sort of immersion coil cooler for the urn as the electronics are in the base of this unit so ice baths etc wouldnt work.

What would be the advantage/disadvantages between the aluminum pots and stainless steel ? figuring not as long a life and non even heat distribution maybe? wondering if the extra dollars spent is wearth it.

65bellet you only brew in a 20 litre container ??? how much beer are you making in your batches? great idea with the kettle elements  do you keep running them until reached desired temp? then one here and there to keep the desired temp i gather?

Has anyone tried seperate immersion heaters for brew day with large pots? Found a decent looking one on esbbrewing for $145. Cheaper than gas bottle, regulator and burner. Im just really sketchy about using gas bottles inside for some sensible reason.


*Immersion Electric Element **Price: **;$148.50** [URL="http://www.esbeer.com.au/prod220.htm"]http://www.esbeer.com.au/prod220.htm[/URL]*
This element will get your wort up and boiling quickly. It will keep the wort on a constant rolling boil. Great for the Craftbrewer making 22 liter batches.  
http://www.esbeer.com.au/category38_1.htm

Thanks again fellas, would still be sitting here with a blank look on my face without you all.


----------



## jordzan

gday soznewb. How do you find 40L size for you ?? what size batches of beer are you brewing with it ? The element for this Tobin is covered up. Im not sure how a kettle type immersion heater works if the water cant get to it though :/ but that should make things a little smoother no? what sort of time does ure unit take to boil without the over the side element? do you think the over side element would be powerfull enough to work by itself ?

ide just tell everyone i was going for that smokey effect and there pallet just isnt experienced enough to enjoy it


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

jordzan,

I use two of those immersion elements in a 75litre aluminium pot. The elements can be bought from Tobins for much less than at a Home Brew shop. I also use a nickel-pated brass ball valve from Bunnings to make life easier (life is too short to syphon).

I would recommend a 40-50litre aluminium pot and one 2400Watt immersion element. You'd get out of it for less than two hundred dollars. With the savings over what you're proposing, you would buy a Residual Current Device to plug the heater into and a few kilograms of grain. The former may save your life and the latter you can soak for 90 minutes or so before feeding to the chooks.


----------



## ikern

Jordzan,

The 40lt urn does me fine, I just fill up to around 36cm from the bottom and I get around the 23lt mark into the fermenter. But as others have said, if you're going to be paying full(ish) price for something and you want the flex of being able to up the batch sizes later on then you may as well go for the bigger pot to start with.

Cheers,

Soz


----------



## arogers

Just a word of advice to those thinking of buying direct from Tobins. You are likely to be able to get a discount if you buy their gear through one of their wholesalers instead of straight from them.


----------



## Prawned

Im thinking about going the BIAB way after reading though a bit of these 41 pages! Im just a bit unsure on how to make a bag.. Can i just buy a few meters of the mesh stuff and just fold it in half then get it sewn up each side, and a lip sewn around the top? also what kind of thread is used to sew it up?


----------



## Thirsty Boy

prawned,

Its not all that complex, its basically just a sack - you can more or less just sew it up like a pillow case. I'd make it a pillow case with the corners rounded off at the bottom, this makes the wort drain off in the middle rather than at the corners and over the edge of your kettle.

At the same place you buy the voile, you will be able to buy 100% polyester thread (just like cotton but really strong) buy the white stuff, its probably the cheapest thread they have there.

There are many fancy ways of stitching material for strength etc, I don't know which is the best... sorry. I just went with a straight seam that I could do myself. Use at least a double row of stitching, mine has three rows. You want it too be strong.

If you aren't up for the sewing... your local dry cleaner probably does "alterations" and could almost certainly be talked into sewing the bag up for you. If you are going to get a more expert person to sew the bag, you might consider a bag sewn up in the style of a sleeping bag cover. They turn into a lovely teardrop shape when they are pulled out of the kettle and things drain nice and neatly.

That probably didn't help all that much... maybe someone has a few pictures??

Thirsty


----------



## 3GumsBrewing

Anyone been doing double batches using BIAB? 

I love BIAB but am concerned that ramping up to a double batch would mean that it might be too hard to lift the bag out of the kettle (a cut down keg).
I am also considering using a waste paper bin I saw the other day in IKEA its big enough to do a double batch, it's holes are small enough that grain would not spill out of it, it would just require a few small holes drilled in the bottom and a handle of some sort.

Anyone else done it using something like that?

Cheers
DK


----------



## captaincleanoff

hi everyone

I'm about to attempt my first BIAB. Just got a 50l pot and 3 ring burner.. Got everything else I need too, except ingredients..

I am a bit confused with the suggested recipe (Ross's Schwartzbier). Is this the "Doc's Schwarzbier" as listed in the RecipeDB? If so, it all seems fine.. except that it says to use 100g of yeast!!!! Is this meant to say 10g?

And if anyone has any suggestions for a first time BIABer, please let me know!


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

DK:

I've done a couple of double BIAB batches - the most recent being a big batch of Denny Conn's Bourbon Vanilla Imperial Porter. A huge grain bill, but the bag handled it without any worries. The lift wasn't an issue, because I used my Rope Ratchet SkyHook(tm)...


capt:

I expect the amount of yeast should be 10grams. If in doubt, check out:

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html


----------



## SJW

I like that pitching rate calculator, I have never seen that before.

Steve


----------



## mikelinz

DK said:


> Anyone been doing double batches using BIAB?
> 
> I love BIAB but am concerned that ramping up to a double batch would mean that it might be too hard to lift the bag out of the kettle (
> 
> 
> 
> Just did a double - 7kg grain, no problem lifting it out, hung it suspended over a bucket, to catch the residue.


----------



## captaincleanoff

so can anyone confirm that "Docs Schwatzbier" uses 10gs of yeast? In the recipe it says 100g! Is it meant to say 10?


----------



## ikern

captaincleanoff said:


> so can anyone confirm that "Docs Schwatzbier" uses 10gs of yeast? In the recipe it says 100g! Is it meant to say 10?



Hey Captn,

Check Spillsmostofit's reply above, he did answer the query there. :icon_cheers: 

Cheers,

Soz


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

captaincleanoff said:


> so can anyone confirm that "Docs Schwatzbier" uses 10gs of yeast? In the recipe it says 100g! Is it meant to say 10?





I think there is a discussion thread for each recipe , you could ask there or give Doc a PM , hes very helpful..

From memory Ross recipe can be found in the first post or in the download ...

Jump in mate you can't go wrong..

Cheers


----------



## captaincleanoff

cant wait to get the first one going!

I know this is pretty unrelated to the topic... but I just ordered a Fridgemate temp controller... Im just wondering, how do these things actually work? I cant seem to open the full details/instructions for the product, so I am just curious as to how I am going to rig this up. I didnt get a probe, should I get one, or is that only necessary to measure the temp of the wort itself (instead of the fridge temp).

Sorry for newbness


----------



## Damian44

captaincleanoff i used this http://helms-deep.cable.nu/~rwh/blog/?p=29 

I too am getting a BIAB setup together to do my first All Grain, after reading this most awsome thread.

I plan to purchase a Italian spiral burner with the medium regulator. But i am not sure if i should get a 60L ($100) or 80L ($125) Robinox Aluminium pot. Is the 80L pot fine for single batches? Thanks for all the info guys.


----------



## InCider

Damian44 said:


> captaincleanoff i used this http://helms-deep.cable.nu/~rwh/blog/?p=29
> 
> I too am getting a BIAB setup together to do my first All Grain, after reading this most awsome thread.
> 
> I plan to purchase a Italian spiral burner with the medium regulator. But i am not sure if i should get a 60L ($100) or 80L ($125) Robinox Aluminium pot. Is the 80L pot fine for single batches? Thanks for all the info guys.




You'll kick yourself forever if you get the 60l!

Go the Manly Sean Eagles!


----------



## Damian44

80L it is than. Thanks again guys. Woot.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

*Damian44 -* Yeah, the 80L will work fine for single batches (although it will look a little empty...) but the advantage is that you will be easily able to ramp up to double batches and get twice as much beer for only a little more effort.

*Captaincleanoff -* As far as I am aware the Fridgemate should come with a probe and wont work without one. Unless you just mean that you didn't get the stainless probe, but did get the NTP(?) probe. In which case you can either just use it to monitor the temperature inside the fridge, which is what I'd do with a setpoint controller like the fridgemate, or you can tape the probe to the side of your fermentor with a bit of styrofoam over it. That'll pretty much read the temp of the wort inside the fermentor. Who did you buy it off?? If it was one of the sponsors, get in contact with them and ask, not only about the probe, but also about setting up and using the controller. They are all good blokes who will be happy to help.

Get into it gents, you'll have a blast and make some great beer.

Cheers

Thirsty


----------



## captaincleanoff

excuse the noobness again... but I am going to do Docs Shwartzbier.. 

It says it is a 40l batch.. How much water do I begin with? 40l?


----------



## randyrob

captaincleanoff said:


> excuse the noobness again... but I am going to do Docs Shwartzbier..
> 
> It says it is a 40l batch.. How much water do I begin with? 40l?



umm...no... 1kg of grain will soak up roughly 1L of water. as well as your loss to evapaoration, trub etc

if you were to start of with 40L you'd prolly end up with 20 odd litres of high gravity wort (which i guess you could water down)

d'oh i contradicted myself.

basically what i'm trying to say is the usual method is work out how much you'll need given the losses.


----------



## captaincleanoff

sorry, that last post was a bit stupid.. of course I'll need more than 40l due to evaporation etc!

But I'm a bit confused... Doc's Shwartzbier uses:

5.28 kg JWM Light Munich 
3 kg Weyermann Pilsner 
0.38 kg JWM Chocolate Malt 
0.38 kg JWM Caramalt 
0.17 kg JWM Roast Barley 
0.17 kg Weyermann Carafa Special I 
84 g Hallertauer Hersbrucker (Plugs, 3.7 AA%, 60 mins) 
28 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh (Plugs, 2.6 AA%, 60 mins) 
28 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh (Plugs, 2.6 AA%, 20 mins) 
28 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh (Plugs, 2.6 AA%, 1 mins) 
10 g DCL Yeast US-05 - American Ale

if this makes 40l, would you need more that 10g yeast?? (the recipe on the recipeDB says 100g of yeast.. but apparently this is a misprint.

Is this possible to do in a 50l pot? How much water do I need at the start, and how much yeast? I would put 20l into 2 fermenters... so would I use 10g per fermenter?


----------



## mikelinz

captaincleanoff said:


> Does anyone have the link to Ross's shwartzbier recipe? This is the one that is recommended in the guide, but I can't find a link anywhere... I think it is pretty much the same as this recipe, but halved.. I think I should go for that one.. Anyone got a link to Ross's recipe?
> 
> edit: I am happy to do the recipe above.. but is it possible in a 50l pot? How much water do I need at the start, and how much yeast?



Go to the first post in this forum and download, BIAB_Checklist___Black_Beer.xls the recipe is in it. you can always adjust the recipe to your batch size using brew software

I brewed a 23Lbatch of this and started with 33L which was about right, then I did a 48L batch so started with 65L which was too much, ended up with a sg of 1.040 instead of 1.053 and an extra 10L off wort. 

Obiously the amout of water the grain soaks up is easy to work out, but evaporation will vary depending on your system, boil time etc. And I should have realised that double vol doesn't equate to double boil off loss.

So for my gear (80L CUB keg with gas burner) I'm going fora start vol of 30L if im doing a19L (ie 1 keg) batch which should allow for trub loss post fermentation. Will need to work on the larger batch so I end up with 57L (ie 3 kegs)


----------



## Thirsty Boy

captaincleanoff said:


> sorry, that last post was a bit stupid.. of course I'll need more than 40l due to evaporation etc!
> 
> But I'm a bit confused... Doc's Shwartzbier uses:
> 
> 5.28 kg JWM Light Munich
> 3 kg Weyermann Pilsner
> 0.38 kg JWM Chocolate Malt
> 0.38 kg JWM Caramalt
> 0.17 kg JWM Roast Barley
> 0.17 kg Weyermann Carafa Special I
> 84 g Hallertauer Hersbrucker (Plugs, 3.7 AA%, 60 mins)
> 28 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh (Plugs, 2.6 AA%, 60 mins)
> 28 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh (Plugs, 2.6 AA%, 20 mins)
> 28 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh (Plugs, 2.6 AA%, 1 mins)
> 10 g DCL Yeast US-05 - American Ale
> 
> if this makes 40l, would you need more that 10g yeast?? (the recipe on the recipeDB says 100g of yeast.. but apparently this is a misprint.
> 
> Is this possible to do in a 50l pot? How much water do I need at the start, and how much yeast? I would put 20l into 2 fermenters... so would I use 10g per fermenter?



Nope - you wont be able to make a 40L batch in a 50L pot if you are using BIAB as your method. You have to fit EVERYTHING in the pot at once with BIAB. Even with a more standard brewing technique... a 40L end of boil volume would be pushing the limits of a 50L pot... with BIAB, no chance.

The easiest way to work out your mash volumes is with software like pro-mash or beersmith. But here is a rough way to work it out. After you have done a couple of brews then you can work out your own system's boil off rate and your bag's grain absorption; & substitute them for the values I use in this example.

Lets take that recipe and cut it in half for 20L into the fermentor

You will lose around 3L to trub and gunk in the kettle so add 3L = 23
You will boil off some liquid during your boil - I have a 50L pot and lose about 4.2L/hr when I am boiling. Lets add that = 27.2
You will lose some liquid to absorption by the grain - less in BIAB than other methods, I work on 0.5L/kg. You have 4.7kg in that recipe (halved remember) so you will lose 2.35L to absorption. add that = 29.55. Thats it for the water.

so you would need 29.55L of water for this brew. Call it 30L to make life easy.

Now you have to fit in your grain as well. You can add 2/3rds the weight of grain as L and that will be around how much volume the grain adds to the mash. So in this example. 4.7*.6667 = 3.13. So the total volume in your pot after everything that needs to go in has gone in... is 33.13L

To make 40L batch you would need nearly twice as much volume, or a 66L pot.

No double batches for you my friend. Sorry.

Just use one pack of yeast - its about 11.5g. I'd use two for the double sized batch.... but you wont be needing that much unfortunately.

Thirsty


----------



## captaincleanoff

thankyou for that info ThirstyBoy... really helpful, I owe u one!


----------



## maltedhopalong

> *Is Efficiency Higher or Lower with BIAB Compared to Traditional?*
> 
> For the beginner, trying to increase efficiency by a few percent is not an important goal. Good clean brewing practices are far more essential. In saying this, in the few side by side brews that have been done, BIAB has been coming out in front of batch-sparged brews by a little over 5% so efficiency is not an issue.



Why is this so? I still can't work out WHY it happens like this. Is it purely the thick consistency of batch-sparged mash that makes sparging essential? I would have thought there would still have been more than 5% efficiency lost in BIAB considering the bag itself is still pretty wet (with the _original _mash water) and would retain loads of sugars.

I've been searching for the answer for quite a while but have been unable to find it. I'm sure it's been discussed before, so I do apologise but I just can't get the search query right to find it.


----------



## bonj

maltedhopalong said:


> Why is this so? I still can't work out WHY it happens like this. Is it purely the thick consistency of batch-sparged mash that makes sparging essential? I would have thought there would still have been more than 5% efficiency lost in BIAB considering the bag itself is still pretty wet (with the _original _mash water) and would retain loads of sugars.
> 
> I've been searching for the answer for quite a while but have been unable to find it. I'm sure it's been discussed before, so I do apologise but I just can't get the search query right to find it.



The bag is made of synthetic plastic material, and doesn't absorb. It will hold a little due to surface tension, but bugger all.


----------



## maltedhopalong

But the grain inside the bag is still soaked with original mash water??? (Ahh, sorry, yeah when I said bag, I meant the grain inside it).

Is it because the sweet liquor is much thinner that more sugar drains out of the grains while it's hanging above the bucket after it's been taken out of the tun?


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

I can't give you a reason exactly why we are seeing greater efficiencies, but I can give you some observations of both methods - which may be complete crap, but works for me in my world view.

Normal mash tun:

Has a dead zone - no matter what concentration of sugars are in there, an amount of liquid stays there until you're cleaning up.
Cannot be squeezed - again, no matter what concentration of sugars are left there, they stay with the grain until you're cleaning up.

BIABaggie:

Will probably have a greater concentration of sugars in the liquid that remains in the grain due to the mathematics that makes fly-sparging different to batch-sparging.
No dead zone - dunno how else to say it - there just isn't a dead zone in a baggie.
You can squeeze the bejebus out of the baggie and let it drain so that the total volume of liquid lost is around 0.5litre/kg of grain or less.

If you accept these and figure that more sugar is being left behind in the dead space and in the grain, you might have the beginning of a theory why it is so... And if you do, you will probably enjoy the sympathies of several people now that you're thinking like me... :lol:


Edit: my new kitten loves walking on my keyboard...


----------



## maltedhopalong

Hmmm... True. <_< .............  ............................ :super: 

Although...


> If you accept these and figure that more sugar is being left behind in the dead space and in the grain, you might have the beginning of a theory why it is so... And if you do, you will probably enjoy the sympathies of several people now that you're thinking like me...



Did I say something dumb?


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

maltedhopalong said:


> Did I say something dumb?



No. It was kind of a joke. Sorry, I'm not very good at them...


----------



## maltedhopalong

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> No. It was kind of a joke. Sorry, I'm not very good at them...



If it's any consolation, I did laugh when I saw ^^^


----------



## microbe

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> Normal mash tun:
> 
> Has a dead zone - no matter what concentration of sugars are in there, an amount of liquid stays there until you're cleaning up.


Forgive my ignorance - but doesn't sparging kind of combat that? Isn't a side effect of sparging diluting the wort in the dead space to almost a zero sugar level?

Cheers,

microbe


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

microbe said:


> ... Isn't a side effect of sparging diluting the wort in the dead space to almost a zero sugar level?



If you're fly-sparging, you stop sparging when you reach some target volume or some target gravity coming out of the tun. I don't think people sparge until they get zero. (Happy to be corrected.)

If you're batch-sparging, there will be an amount of sugar left in there, which is what I understand to be (kind of) the basis of partigyle brewing.

I partly recall an educational story about a soldier (or a tortoise or a one-armed paper-hanger or something) that would take a step towards his goal, then take a step that was only half that one, then another that was only half that one (ie: a quarter of the original), then another that was only half that one (ie: an eighth of the original) and so on. He would get very close, but never actually reach his goal. I see batch sparging in that light.

There is a school of thought that says if you sparge too far, you can extract things you *do not* want in your beer. I've never had the opportunity to prove/disprove this because I've not sparged that far... Happily, if you're full-volume mashing, it is not relevant.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

I'm almost sure enough to say it as though its just the truth.....

BIAB gets comparable efficiency result to a batch sparging because of the lesser amounts of wort lost to absorption by the grain and dead space.

Think about the numbers a little - in a batch sparge with two equal drainings ... the second draining will contain roughly 33% of the sugars you recover.
Now say you are doing a single batch and you are shooting for a pre-boil of 30L... 15L will come from your second draining of the tun. Now if you have 5kg of grain and 1L of deadspace - you will loose around 5+1=6L of wort that is at the same strength as your second runnings or 6/21x100= 28% of the sugar thats available to you in the mash tun at the time. Now thats going to be (very roughly) 28% of 45-50% of the total sugars you created or about 14% - straight onto the garden.

Now in BIAB you are looking at losing only 0.5 or less l/kg of grain and no deadspace - so you only lose 2.5L - rather than 7 which is 2.5/30x100 = 8.3% ... which means that right off the bat, BIAB claws back 5 and half % of the efficiency you lose through not sparging.

And thats about right I reckon... I was getting around 78-80% efficiency doing a double drain batch sparge - and most people say that you are looking at a 65% ish efficiency for a "no sparge" beer (not in a bag version) - add the 5.5% we talked about and you are up to 71.5.

And with margins for error etc etc... thats pretty damn comparable. I get about 75% efficiency on BIAB brews and thats close enough to my current efficiency on my main system ... that I dont feel the need to make adjustments to efficiency calculations when I transfer recipes from my "pilot" BIAB set-up to my main brewery.

Cheers

Thirsty


----------



## dmcke109

To anyone out there that may be able to help,

I'm just about to attempt my first BIAB and have been doing some research on the net. I have read the BIAB handbook and have researched some other sites online. I found this info on one site, and I quote, "After your mash. you need to give things a good stir, and keep on stirring while you add heat and bring the whole mash up to mash out temp. In traditional brewing mash out isn't really necessary, but in BIAB its really quite important for efficiency. You can skip it, but you will probably lose close to 5 points of efficiency" (http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4650&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0/fa). My question - should I follow this step as I don't recall the BIAB tutorial saying to perform a mash out? If mash out is required, what temp should I aim for?

Cheers


----------



## Adamt

A mash out is usually around 76C, at higher temperatures more sugars are able to dissolve in the wort. At temperatures higher than 78, tannins may be extracted from the grain (not good). A mash out is definitely worth it. One easy way to do it is to add a couple of litres of boiling water to your mash, making sure you stir WELL.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Hop_alot,

The reason why the BiaB handbook doesn't have a mashout and the guide you quote does is simple - Pistol Patch wrote the BiaB handbook and I wrote the other one... PP doesn't think a mahout is a particular benefit - and I do.

For your first batches - just skip it - it will make your brewday easier, simpler and quicker - then after a couple of brews, try the mashout and see if it makes a difference.

Then you can decide for yourself which of PP and myself were right. But if you come down on PP's side... don't tell me because I will feel inadequate and I might cry... 

Thirsty


----------



## dmcke109

Hi Thirsty Boy,

Thanks for the reply! 

I am thinking at this stage that I will give the mash out a go. After some research, I believe there appears to be some value in it. Although I must admit, I am looking forward to Pistol Pete's reply (Pistol Pete - thanks for the PM).

Cheers,
Hop_alot

PS - I won't be bagging either of you, I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say that we value your advice.
PPS - big boys don't cry (except when your missus throws out your homebrew equipment)



Thirsty Boy said:


> Hop_alot,
> 
> The reason why the BiaB handbook doesn't have a mashout and the guide you quote does is simple - Pistol Patch wrote the BiaB handbook and I wrote the other one... PP doesn't think a mahout is a particular benefit - and I do.
> 
> For your first batches - just skip it - it will make your brewday easier, simpler and quicker - then after a couple of brews, try the mashout and see if it makes a difference.
> 
> Then you can decide for yourself which of PP and myself were right. But if you come down on PP's side... don't tell me because I will feel inadequate and I might cry...
> 
> Thirsty


----------



## Thirsty Boy

No probs hop_alot,

The redoubtable PP has PM'd me and asked me to reply on his behalf (he is voluntarily under a pre-moderation order for his posts and they take a couple of days to win approval  )

He says - 

"The reason there is no mashout in the BIAB guide is because it was written before I even knew what a mashout was! My thinking on it now is that it increases efficiency by maybe two points plus stabilises the beer.

. . . . .

What I do now for a mashout is string my bag up with the mash paddle in it, suspend it so as it is not sitting on the bottom of the kettle (to save constant agitation) and raise it to 78 degrees. At 78, I dump the bag back in and give the paddle a jkiggle up and down and then leave the bastard for ten minutes. Having the paddle in the bag works well."

Which is of course complete BS ... he has just finally worked out that I was right and he was wrong and cant bring himself to admit it... big nancy boy.

I'll stick to what I said last time... don't fret about the mashout for the first couple of brews - make your life as easy as you can rather than worrying about a couple of efficiency points. Once you have a bit of a feel for the process... then play around a little.

Cheers

Thirsty (and of course PP)


----------



## dmcke109

Thanks again Thirsty! Really appreciate your advice. Will give BIAB a go this weekend and let you know how I go. 

Also, thanks to Adamt for his earlier reply to my post : )

Cheers,
Hop


----------



## katzke

Hello from the USA.

Finally found the fabric for the bag and a rack to put in the bottom of my converted keg.

Now it is time to brew and I need a fast beer as I am out. I am thinking of an Ordinary bitter. Low gravity and designed to be drunk early. Last extract version was a bit different but drinkable.

Here is a go at a recipe.

7 gallon finished volume (26.5L).

7 pounds Maris Otter (3.18kg)
.5 pound Honey Malt (.23kkg)
.5 pound Victory Malt (.23kg)
.5 pound Biscuit Malt (.23kg)
2 ounces Goldings at boil (56.7g)
Wyeast 1968 London ESB Ale

I think I need to start with about 9 gallons or 34L of water but am not sure. Final volume is not critical as I am splitting it into a 5-gallon carboy and a smaller one for experimenting further. This should start at 1.035 and finish around 1.010

This is my own recipe following some others for inspiration. Fell free to tear it apart or make suggestions for changes. I am not sure at all if it will work, as I have never done AG before. I am not sure of a mash temp and plan on following the guide. Not in a hurry and plan on starting in 5 or 6 days. Still need to get ingredients.

Thanks,


----------



## Thirsty Boy

WARNING - Multiple paragraph post ahead - Look away now..... Look away NOW


katzke,

Mate, most of your assumptions are pretty good. I shoved your recipe into pro-mash to see what would come out, and its not too bad at all.

Your numbers are pretty close; assuming that you get an efficiency of 77% and that your boil off rate (for a 60min boil) is 15% or 4.7 litres per hour. (Your boil off might not be that - so if you know what yours is, then you will need to adjust accordingly)

77% is a reasonable efficiency to expect for a BiaB brew where the expected OG is this low. For a more normal gravity, you can probably expect a bit lower mash efficiency, maybe 74 or 75 and even less as you get up into higher gravity brews.

You can work out your required water fairly easily. You work backwards from your post boil volume.

Post boil + Boil off = pre-boil. Pre-boil + grain absorption = water needed. Grain absorption = 0.5L per kg of grain

so for your brew - 26.5 + 4.7 + (3.87x0.5) = 33.14

Now.... I squeeze my BiaB bag fairly thoroughly and if you don't want to do that - then you might want to sub a grain absorption of 0.75 rather than 0.5L/kg

I'd mash at around 68C - fairly high so that the beer ends up with some body. Shooting for an FG of maybe 1.011 or 1.012. In my experience, BiaB brews end up a bit drier/thinner than normal brews, so I sometimes mash them about 1 degree C higher than I would on a normal mashing system.

Pro-mash says that if your grain temp is 19-30C then your strike water (31.2L) will need to be at 70C to get a mash in temp of 68 - add 0.6C if you grain temp is lower than that.

Two things I'd like to say about your recipe:

First - If you haven't brewed an all grain beer before, you are going to be surprised by the amount of stuff that settles to the bottom of your kettle. There is a LOT more break material than when you do an extract brew. And to stack on that, BiaB give a much more cloudy wort than other brewing methods, so there is a bit more stuff in the kettle to start with. I'd say you need to allow at least 2 or 3 litres lost in your kettle to trub. Allow a gallon to avoid surprises. So you are likely to end up with closer to 6 gallons into fermentors than you are to 7. If you really want 7G finished, you are going to need to up your quantities a bit.

Second - You are using several malts (Honey, Victory, Biscuit) that aren't available to me in Australia, so I don't know their particular properties, but, I believe that none of them is a caramel/crystal style malt? And I would include a crystal malt of some sort in this sort of beer. To give it a bit more sweetness and body. The issue with a beer like this is to compensate for the overall lack of malt in the recipe with "tricks" I'd be going for 7-8% of a darker crystal like a C120 or maybe a special B so that it gives a lot of body and flavour, but not so much out and out sweetness.

The other thing is - Your converted kettle. Converted kettles don't make the best BiaB pots. When you have to pull the bag out it gets squeezed through the opening and wort tends to go all over the place a bit. So be prepared for that. You could maybe try to drill a couple of drain holes so that wort that gets onto the top rim of you kettle drains back in rather than running down the sides, or just try to do it "fast" to minimize the spillage. A straight sided pot or a converted keg with the top cut completely off rather than with a hole cut out - is the best option for BiaB.

Thats almost certainly more from me than you wanted or needed to hear, so I'll quit now.

Good luck with your brew.

Cheers

Thirsty


----------



## katzke

Thirsty Boy said:


> WARNING - Multiple paragraph post ahead - Look away now..... Look away NOW
> 
> 
> katzke,
> 
> Mate, most of your assumptions are pretty good. I shoved your recipe into pro-mash to see what would come out, and its not too bad at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Second - You are using several malts (Honey, Victory, Biscuit) that aren't available to me in Australia, so I don't know their particular properties, but, I believe that none of them is a caramel/crystal style malt? And I would include a crystal malt of some sort in this sort of beer. To give it a bit more sweetness and body. The issue with a beer like this is to compensate for the overall lack of malt in the recipe with "tricks" I'd be going for 7-8% of a darker crystal like a C120 or maybe a special B so that it gives a lot of body and flavour, but not so much out and out sweetness.
> 
> The other thing is - Your converted kettle. Converted kettles don't make the best BiaB pots. When you have to pull the bag out it gets squeezed through the opening and wort tends to go all over the place a bit. So be prepared for that. You could maybe try to drill a couple of drain holes so that wort that gets onto the top rim of you kettle drains back in rather than running down the sides, or just try to do it "fast" to minimize the spillage. A straight sided pot or a converted keg with the top cut completely off rather than with a hole cut out - is the best option for BiaB.
> 
> Thats almost certainly more from me than you wanted or needed to hear, so I'll quit now.
> 
> Good luck with your brew.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Thirsty




Thanks a bunch for the advice.

Will have to put some thought into it when I have more time. Some things like the efficiency are different then what I got with BeerSmith. Could be the software or the fact I have no idea what I was doing.

The recipe is loosely based on a partial I did already. It was a 5-gallon batch and I used a pound of Biscuit and that was too much when drinking it green. With a little time it mellowed. I did like the biscuity bready taste so think I will stick with it for this try. I did some sampling at the store and Victory has a different lighter taste then the Biscuit. The Honey Malt was not like honey, like I have read, but from taste it should add some sweetness. I think I know what to expect when it is done. 

As to the converted keg. I have a very small lip as I cut the top as large as I could. So hope to have only a small spill. I have only used it twice and have not figured evaporation rates. I was thinking of asking others in the area what to expect. I am sure humidity has as much to do with it as burners.

That brings up a related question. Is it bad to us a lid when boiling? Do not need to use one to get a boil. Just the thought of stuff flying into the open pot while setting outside kind of bothers me.

If I have any other questions after reflecting on all the info I will let you know. If not the next time you see a post will be after the brew is in the fermenter.


----------



## katzke

katzke said:


> Thanks a bunch for the advice.
> 
> If I have any other questions after reflecting on all the info I will let you know. If not the next time you see a post will be after the brew is in the fermenter.



OK I have more questions about my recipe. Time to shop.

I found out I mixed recipes (bad notes and confused receipts) and used some incorrect ingredients.

The correct recipe is as follows.

7 pounds Maris Otter (3.18kg)
.5 pound Honey Malt (.23kkg)
.5 pound Victory Malt (.23kg)
.5 pound Biscuit Malt (.23kg)
1 ounces Fuggles at boil (28.3g)
.75 ounces Goldings at boil (21.3g)
1 ounces Fuggles at 15 minutes (28.3g)
Wyeast 1098 British Ale Yeast

This gives me about 31 IBUs. I can only get hops in 2-ounce packages. Have the ounces left over from a different brew. I used the Fuggles last time so thought the Goldings would be better used for the bittering hops. Last time was a 5-gallon batch and used 1.5 ounces at boil and .5 ounces at 15 minutes. Thought this would be close for a 7-gallon batch.

Will post this again as a general recipe to catch the ones that do not like Biab. Hope I do not get in to much trouble for cross posting.


----------



## katzke

katzke said:


> OK I have more questions about my recipe. Time to shop.
> 
> I found out I mixed recipes (bad notes and confused receipts) and used some incorrect ingredients.
> 
> The correct recipe is as follows.
> 
> 7 pounds Maris Otter (3.18kg)
> .5 pound Honey Malt (.23kkg)
> .5 pound Victory Malt (.23kg)
> .5 pound Biscuit Malt (.23kg)
> 1 ounces Fuggles at boil (28.3g)
> .75 ounces Goldings at boil (21.3g)
> 1 ounces Fuggles at 15 minutes (28.3g)
> Wyeast 1098 British Ale Yeast
> 
> This gives me about 31 IBU's. I can only get hops in 2-ounce packages. Have the ounces left over from a different brew. I used the Fuggles last time so thought the Goldings would be better used for the bittering hops. Last time was a 5-gallon batch and used 1.5 ounces at boil and .5 ounces at 15 minutes. Thought this would be close for a 7-gallon batch.
> 
> Will post this again as a general recipe to catch the ones that do not like Biab. Hope I do not get in to much trouble for cross posting.



Edit.

Well I did it I am a Biaby or what ever you call it. My first All Grain Batch and first Biab.

Planned on brewing Saturday but complications postponed it until Sunday evening. I know plan ahead and make sure you have plenty of time. Well I started at 6:15 and put it all to bend at 11:30. I found out I need a better burner.

The time went like this. Start 6:15, hit mash temp at 7:15, mash till 8:15, hit mash out at 8:30, pull bag at 9:00, hit boil at 9:20, shut down at 10:20, forgot to keep track of time from here but put the wraps on the fermenters at 11:30. Yes at night.

I missed my target gravity by about .002 because of less boil off then expected. So I added pound LDME per BeerSmith to hit my target of 1.035. Would not have bothered but it is a thin beer and 1.032 or so bothered me.

Had to split the pack of yeast between my bucket and a 3 gallon carboy. Did not think this would be to big an issue as it is a low gravity beer. Last time I made a similar one it finished fast with a full packet in 5 gallons.

So I am sure some will say I did not get my All Grain feet totally wet because of the DME. I did learn a lot and know what better to expect and do next time. This is twice I did a night brew and both times I over shot my volume. Note to self to not brew in the dark.

On the positive side it did save me some $. Even with the price of hopes going up $2 this batch was less then the extract with grain batch of about the same beer. If I keep brewing this way I will have the extra equipment paid for in 2 or 3 more batches.


----------



## pbrosnan

jordzan said:


> gday
> 
> im only fairly new to extract brewing but after reading this thread which is awsome  thank you thank you, im very keen to get into all grain asap. ive found a bit of kit
> that i like, a*Tobin 40 Litre Urn, Thermostat Control. * i was hoping to get some opinions on using this bit of kit for Biab brewing if possible. Seems like it would work
> great for diffrent temps etc, save some sanitising, gas bottles etc.
> 
> Cheers for any help guy's.
> 
> Spec's
> *Item No: **T40-T*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [size=-1]
> [/size][size=-1]_Representative image only._[/size]​ *Tobin 40 Litre Urn, Thermostat Control*
> 
> *Trade Price: A$339.00 Each*
> _(Price includes 10% GST)_
> 
> *Features*
> * Polished Stainless Steel, all welded construction.
> * All edges are rolled for extra strength.
> * Thermostatically controlled for adjustment through to boiling point.
> * Protection against boiling dry.
> * Non drip tap and insulated handles.
> * Indicator light.
> * Water Gauge glass
> * Element wattage 3000W
> * Made in Australia
> 
> Approximately 175 to 200 cups
> Size: 550mm high x 360mm diameter
> Weight: 7.0Kg.



Go the urn, use it as a kettle and get a mash tun. I'm thinking I might have to get one of those 40L babies.


----------



## katzke

Well we did our second Biab. That should make us Biabers and not Biabys.

The brew went well just like last time. If we went No Chill we may have set a record. With both of us keeping time we still have a few guesses. We started about 1 PM and pitched at about 5:50. We shut down the boil at 4:15 so that puts it at 3 and a quarter hours if we No Chilled. I followed Thirty’s advice and just left the bag in until we hit Mashout and then pulled it. That saved a bunch of time over the last brew. It helped that it was at or above 90 today with little wind. One reason why cooling took longer as well as we let it settle longer. Advantage this time is less break in the fermentor. 

Only bummer is we blew our efficiency and boil off again. We ended up with just less then 5 gallons and OG was 1.062 instead of 1.067 as calculated by BeerSmith (must be the program and not us).

Do not want to insult any Kiwi’s but the recipe is called Riwaka IPA. It is a typical American IPA no British sailor would have tolerated or brewery would have created. Here is the break down (sorry you will have to convert it yourself to metric).

5 Gallon batch
7 gallon boil
60 min boil
Est OG 1.067 OG 1.062
Est bitterness 91.4

6.5 pounds Meris Otter
3 pounds 2 Row
1 pound Crystal 10L
1 pound Munich
.5 pound Cara-Pils
1 ounce Columbus 14% 60 min
1 ounce Columbus 14% 30 min
1 ounce Riwaka 6.5% 15 min
Wyeast London Ale 1028

1 ounce Riwaka Dry Hop in secondary.

8 Gallon Baib Mash at 155 for 60 min.
Raise to Mashout of 170 and pull bag and continue to boil heat.

Taste into fermentor, sweet, bitter, fruity. The sweet is first, followed by the fruity on the tip of the tong and the bitter hits the middle of the tong.

I do not like IPA’s but it will be interesting to see how it turns out.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Katzke - you are doing something wrong when you calculate your efficiency I think.

I put your ingredients into pro-mash and to get your expected gravity you would have needed to get above 90% efficiency.

Here's how I worked it so you know the assumptions I have made.

You started with a 7G boil yes? You ended up with a "little" less than 5G in your fermentor, so you probably ended up with a post boil volume of around 5.5G and left close to a gallon of trub and goo in the kettle.

So that makes your batch size 5.5G - And to get 5.5G of 1.067 wort from the ingredients you listed you would have had to get 91% efficiency. Which is a hell of a long way from what you are likely to get with BiaB and would be damn fine going for even a well set up fly sparge system.

Even if I have misread your results and you actually ended up with a little less than 5G at the end of the boil - and even less in the fermentor. To get 5G of 1.067 wort would be an efficiency of 82% - also a fair bit too ambitious. 4.5G @ 1.067 = 74% (more realistic) .... 4.5G @ 1.062 = 69% which is about what I would expect for a BiaB brew at that gravity.

BiaB should give you a fairly regular "mid seventies" efficiency (into the boiler) for a wort of "normal" strength ie: somewhere around 1.048-1.050. As you go up from there I would be factoring in a drop in efficiency of (_very_ roughly...) 5% for every 0.01 point of gravity. So if you were getting 75% on a 1.050 beer - then 70% for a 1.06, 65% for a 1.07 etc etc. It goes the other way too - you will pick up some efficiency when you drop the gravity. On a small beer you might get it up over 80%

It will vary for you particular system and only experience will tell you exactly how much you need to adjust. This drop off in efficiency is common to all forms of sparging except continuous/fly sparging. It happens to batch spargers, and even more severely to No-Spargers, and BiaB is a No-Sparge technique.

You also need to account for you losses to kettle trub - if you lose a Gallon to hops and break etc in the kettle - then that has to be added to your post boil batch size. It hurts, but all that goo you are throwing out is just as strong and sweet as the good stuff you are keeping and takes its share of the ingredients. A gallon of wort/trub/gunge to the drain is 17% of the sugar you went to all that trouble to make. If you want 5G of 1.05 wort in the fermentor, you will need to make 6G of 1.050 wort to get it. And its this greater volume that you use in your efficiency calculations.

Now - I don't have any idea if the assumptions I made about your brew are correct or not. But hopefully in my rambling somewhere there will be something that helps you get a bit closer to your numbers next time. Anyway, its only your second try at it - if you were hitting your numbers it would be a mighty effort. Keep it up. If things are still out of whack in ten brews time .... then you might have an issue.

Cheers

Thirsty


----------



## katzke

Thirsty Boy said:


> Katzke - you are doing something wrong when you calculate your efficiency I think.
> 
> I put your ingredients into pro-mash and to get your expected gravity you would have needed to get above 90% efficiency.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Thirsty



Sorry to have put you to so much work. I did learn from your post if it helps any.

The trouble in your calculations was entirely mine (I hope). The recipe should be 3 pounds of 2 row and not 2. That should help out the efficiency a bit.

And just to be clear my comment on missing the gravity was a bit of sarcasm. We have never hit a gravity in any of our brews. I always just consider it a goal. The last brew was so light, in style, that I added extract to get it back up to the goal. This time we put the top on the bucket and were happy.


----------



## captaincleanoff

Hi all

I've done about a 20 BIAB batches now, and am really happy with the result.

However, I am having problems achieving the correct batch sizes, and am not sure why.

When I follow a recipe that is 52-54L, I usually end up with about 40L..

I always check the boil size using beer smith, which always comes out the same as the boil size stated in the recipe. I suspend the bags above the pot for a good while with a pulley system, so I'm getting as much of the liquid out of the grain as possible. Im doing 60 or 90 min mashs and 90m boils

So that makes me think it must come down to evaporation... I take into account evaporation when calculating boil size.. I nearly always achieve correct %, colour, taste etc..

Where is this 12-14L going to?!


----------



## MVZOOM

captaincleanoff said:


> Hi all
> 
> Where is this 12-14L going to?!



I reckon you're on the money. Up your evap calc and check out dead space calcs. What grain/water obsorbtion ratio are you looking at?

Cheers Mike


----------



## captaincleanoff

I've been using 9% an hour and 3L loss. Think it should be higher? Im using the 100L aluminium pot as seen on beerbelly.com.au


----------



## Thirsty Boy

I reckon you would most likely be getting more than 9% per hour or 3L per hour from a big pot like a 100L job.

But ... you say that you are getting the right numbers apart from volume?? if you were losing way too much to evaporation, then your OG would be higher than you expect it to be.

So, maybe its just a matter of how you/I are interpreting terms and how they are applied in in Beersmith etc.

Tell me EVERYTHING about your brew.

Exactly how much water you put in the pot at the start - exact grain weight - volume of kettle before the boil starts (after you have taken the bag out) - volume of the kettle at the end of your boil - the amount of trub etc you are leaving behind in the kettle - any extra anything you add to or take from the pot. Oh & whether you take the measurements hot or cold, it makes a 4%(ish) difference

If you dont have a way of measuring all these things, then you should. Knowing the state of your brew at every point means you can isolate where things are going wrong (if they do).

That way I can translate whats going on and help out if I can. If we are referring to one volume but mean two different things .... then its hard to make sense of each other.

For instance - if I was getting 40L into a fermentor of a wort of "normal" gravity say 1.05 then I'd probably have had a post boil volume of 42.5L, and in a 90min boil have boiled off 8L of water for a pre-boil of 50.5 and would have lost about 4.5L of water to my 9kg grain by absorption - meaning I would have started with 55L of water in the pot. With a bit of variance in the boil off or absorption rates - that could be the 52-54L "recipe" you were talking about. Which would make things almost perfectly normal.

Not saying that thats whats happening, just that the vagaries of communicating like this mean that it possible. Give us ALL the data and we can work it out for sure.

Cheers

Thirsty


----------



## captaincleanoff

Thanks Thirsty.

I have a good idea of ALL the data from previous brews, but not completely sure.

Will wait till I do my next brew, then will take note of ALL info, and will let you know!


----------



## mikelinz

Thirsty Boy said:


> >I reckon you would most likely be getting more than 9% per hour or 3L per hour from a big pot like a 100L job.
> 
> Hey Thirsty just after a bit of clarification here:
> 
> How do I calculate the boil off vol for different batch sizes using same boiling vessel. I assume a 44L batch won't lose twice as much as a 22L batch as the surface area is the same and a smaller vol will perhaps have a more vigorous boil. I boil in something that looks a bit like an old 80L CUB keg with the top cut off.
> 
> >Oh & whether you take the measurements hot or cold, it makes a 4%(ish) difference
> I assume that hot gives you a slightly higher reading? When you say 4% above what temp does this apply? How do you allow for this in your calculation - add or subtract 4% from the total?
> 
> >and would have lost about 4.5L of water to my 9kg grain by absorption
> So allow about .5L per KG of Grain
> 
> rgds mike


----------



## captaincleanoff

is there any limit at all to the amount of topping up after mash?

Using so much grain limits water volume quite a bit.. Is it fine to top up to the right boil level after mash, using 66c topup water?


----------



## PistolPatch

captaincleanoff said:


> is there any limit at all to the amount of topping up after mash?
> 
> Using so much grain limits water volume quite a bit.. Is it fine to top up to the right boil level after mash, using 66c topup water?



Been a while since I have written anything in our old BIAB thread so Cap, here's maybe a quick answer for you...

Firstly, to answer your question properly, I think we need some more info from you. You said, "Using so much grain limits water volume quite a bit..."

BIAB uses the same amount of grain as traditional brewing so I'm taking a guess here that you are using a small pot/kettle??? Hopefully I have this right and if I have then here is my answer...

If you have a small pot/kettle and therefore cannot add the full volume of water you require at the beginning of the mash then you have a few options...

a) You can add water after you pull your bag out.
B) You can add water during the boil.
c) You can add water to your fermenter.
d) All or a combination of the above.

So, the answer to your question is simply, "Yes."

But, if you do have a small pot then adding the extra water at the end of your mash may make you prone to boil-overs so maybe d) is a better answer for you? In fact, as a new AGr, I'm inclined to think this is a better answer. So, if you end up with just 15 litres in your fermenter and need to top it up with 8 litres to score a 23 litre batch then do it. And, yes, you can use tap water.

My advice above would be totally incorrect if you wanted to brew an award winning pilsner where a skilled judge may well pick up something small that is inderscenable to 95% of other brewers. A lot of older AGrs aspire to this and gain much enjoyment and expel a heap of passion in trying to climb this last 50ft of the Everst of brewing.

What I am trying to say here though Cap is, given the right recipe, how forgiving all-grain (and even more so BIAB) is.

What I'm saying is that it is hard to stuff the Black Beer, the NRB All Amarillo Ale, or a Pale Ale recipe up if you give them a 90 minute mash and a 90 minute good rollling boil. You will get a great beer even if you have to top up in the fermenter with tap water by even well over a third of the volume.

The hardest thing I think for new AGrs is to recognise what to read and listen to at their level of brewing. Assuming an AGer knows the basics of cleanliness and temperature control then my advice would be...

1) Simple Recipe: Find a beer you like that can be brewed with SO-5 yeast.
2) Make sure that your mash thermometer is accurate (not as easy as it sounds though others will tell you different.)
3) Mash for 90 mins.
4) A good rolling boil for 30 minutes and then a little more gentle for the last 60 minutes. Do a 90 minute one though as a beginner.
5) Top up with tap water to your fermenter if needs be. If you end up with extra, measure it and then throw it away. You have more important things to do than save a few litres of wort like...
6) Set up a good recording system. Make your own up and make it on paper. After a year or two of brewing then you can make up your own computerised version.
7) If you are thrilled with a beer then this is a great beer. If not, then 9 out of ten times, you will have not have followed all of the above. If you have, then by now you will have made some good contacts who will taste your beer and tell you where you have buggered up!!!

Hope that helps Cap and it is great to see you and so many others cracking BIAB.

Good on ya!
Pat

P.S. And, yes, I know you are still wondering about topping up with tap water. It is OK unless you are trying to brew the perfect beer :icon_cheers:


----------



## Thirsty Boy

mikelinz said:


> >I reckon you would most likely be getting more than 9% per hour or 3L per hour from a big pot like a 100L job.
> 
> Hey Thirsty just after a bit of clarification here:
> 
> How do I calculate the boil off vol for different batch sizes using same boiling vessel. I assume a 44L batch won't lose twice as much as a 22L batch as the surface area is the same and a smaller vol will perhaps have a more vigorous boil. I boil in something that looks a bit like an old 80L CUB keg with the top cut off.
> 
> >Oh & whether you take the measurements hot or cold, it makes a 4%(ish) difference
> I assume that hot gives you a slightly higher reading? When you say 4% above what temp does this apply? How do you allow for this in your calculation - add or subtract 4% from the total?
> 
> >and would have lost about 4.5L of water to my 9kg grain by absorption
> So allow about .5L per KG of Grain
> 
> rgds mike



Mike,

If you are using the same vessel, then your boil off is going to be pretty similar in litres per hour no matter what your starting volume is - perhaps a little less as the volumes go up. Thats assuming you don't change anything.

The thing is - its my opinion that you _should_ change things.

Most people seem to treat boil off as a given thing that happens to them, I treat it as a variable that I want to control. I dont want to control it for its own sake - but because boil off expressed as a percentage of the starting volume of your boil, is a good indicator that your boil has or has not been vigorous enough to do all the things that it is supposed to - and that it has or has not been too vigorous and started to do some things that it shouldn't.

A nice wide safe zone for boil off rates is 8-15% of your starting volume. If thats what you are losing during your boil, then it is most likely that you have boiled hard enough to get rid of your DMS and other bad volatiles, coagulate your proteins and isomerise your hops etc etc - but you haven't boiled so hard that you risk re-dissolving some of the proteins, darkening your wort too severely and a few others. You might well get away with higher or lower rates, but 8-15% is safe.

Its pretty simple really - if you have 15L of wort and you throw all three rings of a three ring burner at it - then the boil is going to be super vigorous and you will be heaps higher than 15% - turn the burner down, maybe even use a smaller pot. when things are sensible, the rate will probably be in the 8-15% range

30L of wort - probably your three rings are going great and getting it about right

60L of wort - then your three ring burner might be struggling, maybe the boil is barely breaking the surface and you have more of a simmer than a boil. That rate in percentages is (probably) going to be on the low side or under the 8% mark. Better get a bigger burner. How big?? well... one that will get the rate up to 8-15% of the starting volume, then you are in the safe zone.

So thats what percentage boil off rates are for. As far as calculating your volumes etc etc, then if you are talking normal volumes of between 20-50L then you are better off using a litres/per hour rate which is likely to be roughly the same no matter what your batch size.

for example - For a 30L pre-boil volume, I get about 4.3L per hour out of my kettle. Which is 14.3% which is what I have tweaked my system to give me. If for instance I want to do a double batch, my pre-boil is going to be about 45L and then I would be getting a little less per hour (about 4.0) which is still 9% so I am still in the safe zone. Therefore I only care about the litres per hour figure so I can calculate my finishing volumes etc.

If however, as I frequently do - I do a smaller batch around 8-12L, then I need to do a bit of tweaking of my system or my boil vigor will be way to high - the percentage boil off figure is simply the tool I use to tell me when I have got it about right.

The 4% difference between hot and cold is technically between 0C and 100C but its close enough for government work for the difference between post boil and pitching temps. You just have to realize that 25L at 100C in your kettle - will turn into 24L (ish) at pitching temps -- so when you are wondering where that other litre went?? It can throw your sums out a bit if you measure some things when the wort is hot, and other things when its cold

I allow 0.5L/kg of grain for my BiaB brews - I think that in general people are getting an absorption rate somewhere between 0.5 and 0.75 L/kg - depending on how long you let the bag drain for and whether you squeeze it or not ( I am a squeezer) This is one of those things that varies from system to system. You will just have to find out what your rate is from experience. I'd start with 0.75 and see how it goes.

Sorry I took so long to answer your question - also sorry about the wordy post. But seeing PP post again whipped me into a frenzy of verbosity.

Cheers

Thirsty


----------



## captaincleanoff

Thanks so much Pistol, that clears a few things up! I owe you a few beers now, you've helped me out a few times!

I probably could have worded that better before. Grain obviously takes up volume... but I was just asking as I want to make the biggest batches I possibly can with my pot! Haven't topped up before, so you've answered any questions I had about it!


----------



## reg

Going to Pop my AG BIAB cherry on Saturday.
Got everything ready to, pick up grain tomorrow from G&G.
I am going to copy Barramundi's recipe from the vic case swap

5.0 kg Joe white traditional Ale
30 gms Northern brewer hops at 60 mins
30 gms Northern brewer hops at 0 mins
Whirfloc tablet

34 litres water at start
66 deg mash for 60 mins
77 deg for 10 mins

Boil for 90 mins with above hop additions

Aiming for somewhere around 1040 - 1045

Fingers crossed for a hassle free day.


----------



## PistolPatch

No worries Cap!

Reg,

Will look forward to seeing how you go and best of luck to you.

That's a great simple recipe you have there. Copying someone else's recipe you really enjoy for your first brews is a very intelligent way to start BIAB or any sort of all-grain.

You have proposed doing a mash out as well for your first brew and while not necessary, will give you a tad extra efficiency and will also, "stabilise," your beer. (I've never had an answer that I really understand on what, "stabilise," means and I can never taste a difference but I tend to do it now anyway!)

One thing though in this thread that I haven't seen is a description of how to do a mash out or "rests" with BIAB. As I am in a writing mood, maybe I should have a crack at this???

Firstly to do a mash out or a rest with BIAB is really simple and very accurate if you have a skyhook. A skyhook means an anchor above your kettle that you can attach a rope to, enabling you to raise or lower your bag. A skyhook and pulley system is the gold of BIAB. With this method, you can raise the bag so that the grain floats on top of your liquor whilst applying heat.

The silver of BIAB is a cake stand that sits at the bottom of your kettle to prevent uneven/very high temps touching the grain in your bag. I think to acheive this, you will need a cake stand that keeps your grain bag 5cm from the bottom of your kettle. Hard to find and serves no purpose during the boil and definitely needs to be ditched before the boil if you syphon from your kettle.

The bronze of BIAB is nothing at all. This means that you have to constantly agitate your mash whilst applying any heat to your kettle. I did this for over a year as I was brewing inside a rented apartment and therefore could not drill a hole for a skyhook. It's not a big deal but the sooner you get a skyhook the better.

So, to do rests and mash-outs I do as follows. I have the skyhook now so you will have to adjust the following to your equipment i.e. occasional stirring for silver and constant stirring for bronze....

Let's assume a 66 degree mash, a 72 degree rest (have no idea what this does but I do it now) and a 78 degree mash out.

At the end of mash I put my mash paddle (a paint stirrer which looks like a very large potato masher) into my bag. I then thread my pulley rope through tabs I have in my bag (see earlier in this thread for bag design) and then raise my bag to ensure that it is well above the base of the kettle but not so high for the top of the grain to be not submerged.

I then apply heat and wait for it to reach 72. Once it has reached 72 degrees I drop the bag back in and give it a jiggle with my masher and then wait around ten minutes. If you are brewing in cold weather, (like ten degrees) you can leave the inner ring on low for this period, just raise your bag as described in the para above.

Do the same again for the 78 mash-out.

Simple!

Rests and mash-outs take some or a lot of time. I'm sure that there is a lot of science out there that tells us that we should do them. Just the same as there is science out there that tells us to brew at certain liquor to grist ratios. I have never been able to taste a difference in ale recipes brewed both ways. As for stability issues, I brewed a BIAB lager that travelled the Nullabor over a 3 month period being exposed to temps of well over 40 degrees. The end result was that his lager was as boring, 6 months later as it was two months after I brewed it. i.e. no off-flavours!

So, if you don't have a skyhook, make sure you mash for NINETY minutes and then just pull your bag out.

If you have Gold BIAB?

What I do if I am in a rush and don't want to stop for rests and mash-outs is just raise my bag at the end of the mash, wait until it gets to 78 and then I just pull it out.

Too easy!

Oh and ThirstyBoy thought he was in a frenzy of verbosity!!!! (Good on ya Thirsty answering all the questions here  )

Sorry my post is so short - I am out of practice.

Good luck Reg,
Pat

P.S. My next post here is going to be on that silly brewing thing called efficiency. Thirsty and I have been discussing this over-rated, confusing, mis-leading and relatively very unimportant subject for some time. In the meantime, do as reg has done and just find a recipe you like. If you do end up taking an efficiency measurement then let us know when you took it, i.e. pre-boil, end of boil or in the fermenter.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Hey Pat - PM sent (or about to be) about what "stabilise" means. Not for you, only for fly spargers.

TB


----------



## reg

OK so cherry has been popped.

Day went reasonably well considering I forgot that I had given my gas bottle away since BBQ now on natural gas.
Answer was to use the pot on the flame tamer of the BBQ.
Did a 90 minute mash and a 75 minute boil
was very pleased with the whole day.

Have another bag of grain cracked ready for the next brew!!!!

I am going to post some pics in my blog in the next couple of days.

Ended up with a reading of 11.8, 12.0 on my refractometer..is this good?
I have to have a look at some charts as this is a new toy still working it out..

Thanks to everyone for their advice.. 

Edit: Just had a look at a chart and it comes out at 1.048


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Nice work reg,

Dunno if your figures are good or bad, cause I'm not sure what you were aiming for ..... But, 1.048 is a lovely figure for a nice normal strength beer. A standard sort of fermentation will see you at a 5% abv and I bet it tastes great.

Welcome to the world of AG. Well done.

Thirsty


----------



## stowaway

Does anyone know if there is a BIAB instruction youtube video?

would like to watch it before i jump into it.


----------



## PistolPatch

Sorry Stow there are no videos. There are only a very few brewers on the Gold Coast and I don't know of any who do BIAB.

My only suggestion is for you to read the .pdf several times and look at the pictures. Also look at ThirstyBoy's American thread which also has pictures. Do this a few times and write down any questions and then ask them here. You will certainly be helped out.

Getting your head around all-grain can take a little while as there is, for a beginner, too much info out there. Just concentrate on the above two things, ask some questions here and your confidence level will rise dramatically.

Good luck,
Pat

P.S. Still working on my efficiency essay - trying to get it down to a few hundred words which would be an outstanding feat for me


----------



## Thirsty Boy

stowaway said:


> Does anyone know if there is a BIAB instruction youtube video?
> 
> would like to watch it before i jump into it.



Patience grasshopper - its being worked on.

But, you will need a fair bit of that patience, production has taken a firm backseat to life ATM. If there are specific bits you really really want to see before you take a leap, maybe I can help .... but going to a brewday with someone would be better. No one from the BiaB register anywhere near you??

Thirsty


----------



## captaincleanoff

thanks heaps Thirsty and Pistol for all of your help. I've got those volume issues figured now.. I was just underestimating boil off and grain absorbtion.

I absolutely love brewing this way. Have done one every weekend for about 4 months now! Have lost count of how much I've done.

I'm making the best beers I've ever made now... I wouldn't hesitate to recommend this to anyone, give it a go!

Again, thanks Pistolpatch.. You have taught me much.


----------



## mikelinz

Hi Guys Long question hopefully simple answer.

My setup

50L electric HLT + Temp controller (plan an setting this on a timer so water is ready)
70L Boiler + Slow 3 burner (takes 45min to get from mash temp to boil - yes i'm going to replace it as soon as I can afford the plumber to set up my NG system)
Pre Boil volume 66L 


I was planning on mashing just using 45L from HLT preheated to 70c assuming i will lose a few degrees to boiler and grain which i can then adjust to mash temp with the burner. Is there a better strike temp??? How do I calculate it?

Then I thought I would heat the balance of the batch (21L) in the HLT while mashing. At the end of the mash I would then add the 21L to the boiler to bring up to volume and increase the temp hopefully to get to boil quicker.

So 2 questions here - does this idea work and how do i calculate what temp to have the second lot of water up to (or do I just get it up to as close to boiling as I can?

My theory is that this will save me a couple of hours at the start (getting water up to strike temp) and possibly cut another half hour off getting up to boiling temp.

Thanks in advance mike


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Mike, your set-up and plans will work just fine.

As a matter of fact you will be not only saving yourself a bit of heating time, you will be avoiding almost all of the "issues" that people believe might occur when you choose BiaB as a system. In short, you get (pretty much) the best of both worlds. 

What I would do with your set-up

First, download a copy of Pro-mash, the trial version is free free and does everything that the full version does, you just cant save recipes. Pro-mash has a lovely tool that will help you to calculate the correct temperature for your strike water, so you reach your desired mash temperature. You tell it how much grain you have, what temperature the grain is at, how much water you are putting in and what temp you want it to end up at... and it tells you how hot to heat your water. Easy peasey. _The temperature you are aiming at will depend on the beer you want to make. It should be a part of the recipe._

Pro-mash also has lots of other tools including ones that will help you design your mashes so you get the right volumes out at the end. For free, its a must have tool in my brewing.

I would mash-in with enough water (at the calculated temperature) for a normal L:G ratio, so somewhere between 2.5&3 litres of water for every kg of grain, mash for your 60min or whatever the recipe says. Add heat with your burner if you need to, but scorching and bag melting will be a bit more of an issue with the thicker mash, so stir stir stir if you have flame on.

Then add the rest of the water needed to the mashtun as "sparge water" I would add this water at a temperature hot enough to bring the whole volume up to mashout/sparge temperature. Pro-mash has a tool that can help you work out what temperature the water should be, but a rough estimate is -: Assuming you still want 66L of water in total, you started with 10kg of grain and 30L of strike water, your mash temp is 67. The you would be adding 36L of water and it would need to be at 88.5 to get your total mash to a mashout/sparge temp of 78C

_BTW - your 66L of water plus say 10kg of grain are all going to add up to about 75L.... so you might need to re-think you batch size a little or do a little juggling till you pull the bag out. All that volume is going to give you a post boil volume on the order of 50L, which will put say 45-46 into the fermentor for you. You could also just drain a bit of the wort out into a bucket before you add the sparge water, that would actually make you system fractionally more efficient, but adds another thing to worry about_

Ok, after you have added all the water - put your burner on and start stirring - give it a good stir for a couple of minutes and then pull out your bag. Leave the burner on. For a batch your size you are gonna need a pulley or something. While the bag is hanging over the pot draining completely, your wort is coming up to boiling temp.

Boil etc as per normal.

If you really want it to get to the boil faster - and you dont mind mucking about a bit, you could split off some of the wort into the HLT and throw both electricity and gas at it, then pour it back into the kettle when its nearly up to the boil?? A bit dangerous and a bit of a PITA, but it would save time if thats whats important.

What you will have, because you have a separate HLT, is more or less a cross between a BiaB system and a batch sparge system. With a bit of imagination and a spare bucket, you could do either.

Pro-mash is your friend, brewing is a forgiving art. Good beer will almost certainly be the result, and you can refine as you go.

Have fun

Thirsty


----------



## stowaway

Okay, im trying to get my head around BIAB.. First timer here. I have dumbed it down a bit for myself.

I plan to brew this receipe: 

3.5 kg BB Ale Malt 
1 kg Weyermann Munich I 
0.5 kg BB Wheat Malt 
10 g Magnum (Pellets, 11.5 AA%, 60 mins) 
15 g Simcoe (Pellets, 11.9 AA%, 10 mins) 
15 g Simcoe (Pellets, 11.9 AA%, 0 mins) 
12 g DCL Yeast US-05 - American Ale 

Single Infusion Mash @ 66*c, Ferment @ 18*c

My Method ( I think ) : 
Add 38litres to my 60litre StockPot
secure Mash Bag
Add a BB ale MAlt, Weyermann Muchich + Wheat Malt (I think i add them all together?)
bring temperature to 66Degrees 
Agitate & maintain at 66degrees (for 90 minutes)
Remove mash bag 
Gravity Check
Raise temperature to rolling boil
Skim scum off Surface
Top up water if required + add 1 table spoon of salt
add hop sock with magnum pellets
boil. 50mins
Add hop sock with 15g simcoe pallets
10mins
add 15g simcoe pallets
flame off
Use siphon/aerate to move Wort to fermenter (no chill method)
Seal Fermenter
Wait until 23degrees
Pitch Yeaste

ferment at 18Degrees

Pray I did it right.


----------



## mikelinz

Thirsty Boy said:


> Mike, your set-up and plans will work just fine.
> 
> Thanks Thirsty - yup stuck my bag to the bottom of the kettle - first time ever the wife distracted me with an I just need you for 5mins. Oh well cost her a new bag and managed to rescue the brew.
> 
> Thanks for the great advise. I use Beersmith but have promash (somewhere) I will have a play and see if i can do what you suggest in beersmith first.
> 
> rgds mike


----------



## Thirsty Boy

mikelinz said:


> Thanks Thirsty - yup stuck my bag to the bottom of the kettle - first time ever the wife distracted me with an I just need you for 5mins. Oh well cost her a new bag and managed to rescue the brew.
> 
> Thanks for the great advise. I use Beersmith but have promash (somewhere) I will have a play and see if i can do what you suggest in beersmith first.
> 
> rgds mike



no worries, dont worry about getting promash, I just got the impression that you didn't have any software to help with the calculations. You will be able to get everything you need from beersmith I'm sure. The software is your friend.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

stowaway said:


> Okay, im trying to get my head around BIAB.. First timer here. I have dumbed it down a bit for myself.
> 
> I plan to brew this receipe:
> 
> 3.5 kg BB Ale Malt
> 1 kg Weyermann Munich I
> 0.5 kg BB Wheat Malt
> 10 g Magnum (Pellets, 11.5 AA%, 60 mins)
> 15 g Simcoe (Pellets, 11.9 AA%, 10 mins)
> 15 g Simcoe (Pellets, 11.9 AA%, 0 mins)
> 12 g DCL Yeast US-05 - American Ale
> 
> Single Infusion Mash @ 66*c, Ferment @ 18*c
> 
> snipped
> 
> ferment at 18Degrees
> 
> Pray I did it right.



Nearly but not quite - also, you dont say how much you plan to end up with so I cant really comment on the recipe or amounts too accurately. For this exercise I will assume that you are making an APA (sure looks like one) and you want it at about 5% abv, so are looking for an OG of around 1.050

At 75% efficiency, which is hopefully close to what you will get, that amount of grain will give you a post boil volume of 23.5L @ 1.050, you will lose say 3L of that to trub, giving you about 20.5 into your fermentor. All of which means that your starting volume of water is probably too high.

In a 60L pot I am going to assume you will probably get about 20% boil off so your pre-boil would need to have been about 29.5, your grain will have absorbed around 0.75L per kg, so thats 3.75, call it 3.5. which means that you want to start with 29.5+3.5=33L More water at the start will mean more beer in your fermentor, but lower OG and therefore lower alcohol.

So here goes I will ammend your proposed method where I think it needs it OK

Your Method ----- My Amendment

Add 38litres to my 60litre StockPot Make it 33L
Heat up water to say 2 degrees higher than your desired mash temp.
secure Mash Bag
Add a BB ale MAlt, Weyermann Muchich + Wheat Malt (I think i add them all together?) Yep add em all together
bring If needed adjust with burner while stirring constantly temperature to 66Degrees. I'd go for 67-68 personally
Agitate & maintain at 66degrees (for 90 minutes) 60mins would do, but 90 wont hurt at all.
You could include a mash-out step here, raise the temp of the whole mash to 76C before you remove the bag. It will help you get better efficiency in a BiaB system. Without it, you might fall a bit short of the 75% and there fore your gravity might be a little low. Few percent difference maybe. If you want to try it, simply put on your burner and stir constantly while the temperature raises. When it gets to 75-76ish, then pull your bag.
Remove mash bag
Gravity Check
Raise temperature to rolling boil
Skim scum off Surface Only if you are particularly bored, wont hurt but not needed.
Top up water if required + add 1 table spoon of salt - this should go between the gravity check and raise the temp to boil.
add hop sock with magnum pellets
boil. 50mins
Add hop sock with 15g simcoe pallets you might want to consider some kettle finings at this point. Irish moss or Whirfloc. This will help to coagulate the proteins and give you a clearer more stable beer.
10mins
add 15g simcoe pallets - 
flame off
Use siphon/aerate to move Wort to fermenter (no chill method) - no chill is fine, but you definitely don't want to aerate at this point. The hot wort will not absorb any oxygen and the only thing that you will achieve is potential oxidation of the wort. This might well lead to stability problems inthe beer and decrease its shelf life giving aged off flavours to the beer before it should get them. Aerate after the wort has cooled to pitching temperatures
Seal Fermenter
Wait until 23degrees - if you are no-chilling, then there is no rush. Might as well wait till the wort reaches the temperature you plan to ferment at before you pitch. Better chance of a well flavoured beer when you have nice stable temperatures throughout fermentation.
Pitch Yeaste

ferment at 18Degrees


All that red type looks like I picked your method to bits, but I didn't really. You had the vast majority of it right, just a couple of key things that needed to be changed and a few little things. Give it a go and have fun, thats the main thing.

Cheers

Thirsty


----------



## [email protected]

For those interested in some impartial BIAB feedback, I entered my first two successfully (my actual second batch got infected due to some poor sanitation) brewed BIAB beers into Pale Ale Mania, which was judged on the weekend here in Melbourne. Both were American Pale Ale's using the Brewing Classic Styles recipes.

The first one scored a 28.2 (14th/23), and the second a 33.5 (5th/23). The first was probably a bit past its best (in terms of hop flavor) being about 5 months old, while the second was just ripening (barely a month bottled).

Note I hadn't done any all-grain before this, with only 4 kit based (& pretty dodgy) beers made before this. So thanks goes out to all the folk who provided the info in this thread (and other threads) to make it possible to begin all-grain the easy way.


----------



## katzke

mcook said:


> For those interested in some impartial BIAB feedback, I entered my first two successfully (my actual second batch got infected due to some poor sanitation) brewed BIAB beers into Pale Ale Mania, which was judged on the weekend here in Melbourne. Both were American Pale Ale's using the Brewing Classic Styles recipes.
> 
> The first one scored a 28.2 (14th/23), and the second a 33.5 (5th/23). The first was probably a bit past its best (in terms of hop flavor) being about 5 months old, while the second was just ripening (barely a month bottled).
> 
> Note I hadn't done any all-grain before this, with only 4 kit based (& pretty dodgy) beers made before this. So thanks goes out to all the folk who provided the info in this thread (and other threads) to make it possible to begin all-grain the easy way.



Way to go. 14th is not bad for a new brewer. 5th is great.

Did they leave any comments.


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## stowaway

thanks for ur comments thirsty boy.

i will let u know how it turns out


----------



## seemax

Attempted my first BIAB on the weekend - a Hefeweizen. The grain bill was 65% wheat, 35% pils and a single Perle addition for an IBU of 10.
My bag (muslin) wasn't quite wide enough for the grain so I ended up tying the bag up in the pot with a tether for when I needed to pull the bag out. I had reservations about this as the grains were compacted to some degree. I also had trouble keeping the mash temp at 66C even with the pot covered with towels and the oven on to keep the stove top warm. Had to fire up the gas stove every 15mins to heat it up a few degrees. 
End result was a very cloudy wort and an efficiency of 62%. I did attempt a pot sparge by moving the bag into a pot of water ay 76C, but the SG of the resulting wort was so low I didn't bother. I ended up just settling for a smaller batch.
After irish moss, whirlpooling and cooling the wort cleared right up and I managed to only waste about 2L.
Pitched at 20C with Danstar Munich yeast and within 5 hrs it was bubbling like mad and has continued to do so. The krausen was as high as the wort and nearly reached the lid!
Will rack to secondary in a few days and bottle after 7days or when I have the time. 

BIAB is certainly easier than my esky lautering system and cleaning up is simple. I'm tempted to try it again once I have a better bag system. I'll wait to see how the Hefe turns out!

Stef


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## Thirsty Boy

A better bag will help, and will make your life easier. I'm yet to hear of a consistent good result when people haven't taken the "you must be able to fit your pot inside your bag" advice. I'm also not too keen on the muslin thing ... its probably gonna be fine, but once again, the polyester voil works, works well, is common and is cheap. I'm unsure why people keep using nylons and muslins and old grain bags and whatnot. Sure in the spirit of experimentation, but when you are first trying something out??? So much more likely to get a good result if you actually follow the instructions.

Not sure about your temp loss... Only ever lost a few degrees over the course of the mash on any BiaB I have been a part of. Could just be the cold whether I suppose??

Love to hear how the beer turns out, and if you give it another go with a better suited bag.

Cheers

Thisrty


----------



## wambesi

As Thirsty has said the bag will be the difference I think.
Mine is the swiss voile (after having fabric shops tell me there is no such thing!!??) but I also have muslin and other cloth around for my cheeses, ginger beers and cold brewed coffee's and I must say I don't think I would ever use muslin as it just doesn't seem to be strong enough.

The temp sounds funny too, I've been brewing here in Sydney (and it's been bloody cold too, I thought Melb was cold!) and I have had to turn the burner on once to give it a lift of a few degree's, what type of pot is it?

I wouldn't worry too much about the cloudy wort either, heffe's are supposed to be cloudy and my first brew (an APA) was very cloudy, but has cleared up quite nice now!

Grab yourself a new bag and jump back in!


----------



## [email protected]

katzke said:


> Way to go. 14th is not bad for a new brewer. 5th is great.
> 
> Did they leave any comments.



Comments for the first (14th) were along the lines of "past it best", "sour", hop flavour "not aggressive", which all ring pretty true. The second (5th) there is mention of "out of style", which may be due to the recipe being "American Pale Ale with Caramel" and I cut back on the hops marginally so the caramel flavour stands out a bit.

So overall pretty happy with the result, and it was enough to win me Best Novice Brewer for that competition.


----------



## reviled

Thought I would post here, did my first BIAB yesterday, am now officially converted :icon_drunk:


----------



## I like beer

Well i finally found this mystical thing called swiss viole today (what colour would you like sir?) after 4 different biabs bags (including daughters old cotton skirt) & will try it next weekend ...... But only if my lovely dearest wife will make me a third bag...shmbo wrote that


----------



## wambesi

I like beer said:


> Well i finally found this mystical thing called swiss viole today (what colour would you like sir?) after 4 different biabs bags (including daughters old cotton skirt) & will try it next weekend ...... But only if my lovely dearest wife will make me a third bag...shmbo wrote that




Good stuff, let us know how you get along. It should make a big difference. I've only used it myself but others have reported other results.
Hopefully tomorrow I should be putting on my next brew....


----------



## Damian44

Hey guys im finally getting all of my equipment together to make the one big step. I was wondering if i could install a Stub Dial Thermometer in my ally pot? ( http://www.beerbelly.com.au/measuring.html ) Im sure it wouldnt rip the bag. Or would a glass thermometer be OK?
TYVM


----------



## Cocko

I was thinking the exact same thing!!

My kettle is ready, all I have to do is make its jacket, poor little fella needs to be warm, for the mash stage but how do I know whats is happening inside??

I know its a pretty big thermal mass but am anal about temps....

So sorry I don't have your answer but hope someone has a worth while opinion on your question....

Anyone? A BIAB vessel, should it have a thermometer fitted and/or without probe to tear bag???

Thoughts.


----------



## PistolPatch

Hi there Cocko,

As you have said, it is a good question. I have already PM'ed a reply to Damien tonight. Maybe he can distill what I wrote down to a more manageable size???

Hope so! If not, PM me on the weekend.

Spot ya,
Pat


----------



## Thirsty Boy

I suppose if you are sure it wont tear the bag.. why not. But remember, when you gather up that bag and pull it out, you are going to be dragging 10kg plus past the end of that probe. I reckon it is going to tear.

Plus I reckon its not at all necessary - purchase one $10 handheld thermometer, remove lid from pot, stir and take temperature. repeat as desired.

Spillsmostofit takes a temperature after 5 mins, then one at 20mins and maybe one more, after that, the shooting match is more or less over with anyway (or his schedule is something like that anyway)

Spills is fussier than me - Whwn I BiaB I take one after I have mashed in - one at 5 mins because I am sure that things have stabilised by then... then maybe I take one at 30mins, but probably not. I take on eat the end to tell me how much it cooled down. Its usually not that much.

Anyway, its my personal opinion that fancy arsed dial/probe thermometers are rubbish anyway. They measure the bit of the mash that they happen to be located in -- not the average temp of the whole tun. You have to stir it up to get that, and if you are stirring, you might as well be holding a thermometer in the hand that hasn't got a mash-paddle in it.

I suppose that stubby one might be OK - but I wouldn't put one in my BiaB pot.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

I've struggled hard to resist the lure of the MashMaster probe (thermometer). But, at the end of the day, Thirsty Boy is right. It is only going to be useful if you can move it around the mash having stirred it up a bit and convince yourself that you have a rough average of the mash temp. The only place I can conceive of where it wouldn't tear the baggie is near the bottom of the kettle underneath some sort of false bottom, where it won't give you a usefully representative mash temperature.

If you're one of those multi-vessel brewers, chances are that you are going to deploy an insulated mash tun in the expectation that the temperature gradient across the tun will be more gentle and a thermometer bolted somewhere in there will give you a reading you can use. In our case, that doesn't apply as much and I reckon you're better off using the most cost-effective avenue open to you.

There is much to be said about a simple brewing setup such as BIAB, but only if it remains simple and I reckon the digital stick thermometers are the go. I got mine from that place in Carbrook. I think Thirsty Boy has dropped it into the mash twice now (I *never* have  ), but it keeps on providing sterling service on brew days and elsewhere.


----------



## reviled

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> I've struggled hard to resist the lure of the MashMaster probe (thermometer). But, at the end of the day, Thirsty Boy is right. It is only going to be useful if you can move it around the mash having stirred it up a bit and convince yourself that you have a rough average of the mash temp. The only place I can conceive of where it wouldn't tear the baggie is near the bottom of the kettle underneath some sort of false bottom, where it won't give you a usefully representative mash temperature.
> 
> If you're one of those multi-vessel brewers, chances are that you are going to deploy an insulated mash tun in the expectation that the temperature gradient across the tun will be more gentle and a thermometer bolted somewhere in there will give you a reading you can use. In our case, that doesn't apply as much and I reckon you're better off using the most cost-effective avenue open to you.
> 
> There is much to be said about a simple brewing setup such as BIAB, but only if it remains simple and I reckon the digital stick thermometers are the go. I got mine from that place in Carbrook. I think Thirsty Boy has dropped it into the mash twice now (I *never* have  ), but it keeps on providing sterling service on brew days and elsewhere.



I thought you could only get those stick on thermometers that go up to 40, can you get one that will go to 100?


----------



## Fents

no he means a stick thermometer, not a stick on one.

this is somthing like what i use :


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

Trust the Fents (in this instance).

I specifically meant:

http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=764


----------



## Damian44

Thanks guys. SS digital it is for me. Im finally about to order every thing. Heres what im gonna get...
80 litre ally pot $125 or 100 litre for $137
Italian spiral burner $95
Med regulator $65
Barley Crusher $180
Bag
Does that sound OK? TYVM.


----------



## Cocko

100L pot.

GO!


----------



## stowaway

Damian44 said:


> Thanks guys. SS digital it is for me. Im finally about to order every thing. Heres what im gonna get...
> 80 litre ally pot $125 or 100 litre for $137
> Italian spiral burner $95
> Med regulator $65
> Barley Crusher $180
> Bag
> Does that sound OK? TYVM.



go the 100 litre one in my opinion.
i got the 60litre one.. And i wish i got a bigger one.


----------



## Damian44

Thanks guys. Im planning to buy a syphon and transfere the wort to the fermenter for no-chill. Im worried the food grade hose will collapse under the heat of the wort. Will this be a problem, or should i purchase some wired hose. Has anyone had any problems chilling in the fermenter instead of a cube?
TYVM


----------



## stowaway

Damian44 said:


> Thanks guys. Im planning to buy a syphon and transfere the wort to the fermenter for no-chill. Im worried the food grade hose will collapse under the heat of the wort. Will this be a problem, or should i purchase some wired hose. Has anyone had any problems chilling in the fermenter instead of a cube?
> TYVM




im new.. VERY new.. Ive done 2 batches so far. and havent tasted any.. 

however, when i finish brewing my beer in my pot, i put the lid on it and seal it with glad wrap and then let it chil in the pot over night and transfer when its chilled.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

I chilled my first couple of AG brews in the pot, submersing it in water, then transferring to fermenter. It worked.

I now think that if I were to NoChill without a cube, I would do so in the fermenter. Plenty of others do. You have to be a bit more careful to avoid HSA (if you're a believer), but the heat gives you extra protection against bugs.

If you're using unreinforced PVC hose, it will kink with the heat. You can either deal with that, or avoid the issue by using something else. Either way, you're going to have teething problems and will have to work them through.

I bought an Easy Syphon. They're great, but mine deformed from the heat.

I tried using cheap PVC hose from Bunnings for a while and it went brown - I don't know what it did for the beer, but you might be better off buying some hose from your LHBS that they sell as 'food grade'.

I found it a hard decision to bore a hole in my kettle for a tap, but having done it my brew days are easier.

Edit: Fixed dumb grammar.


----------



## bonj

Damian44 said:


> Thanks guys. SS digital it is for me. Im finally about to order every thing. Heres what im gonna get...
> 80 litre ally pot $125 or 100 litre for $137
> Italian spiral burner $95
> Med regulator $65
> Barley Crusher $180
> Bag
> Does that sound OK? TYVM.


It seems to me that you'd be better off, if you're spending that kind of money, getting an esky or something for a mashtun. While I have nothing against BIAB, and think it's a great development, I feel that a mashtun offers more flexibility and avoids the necessity for lifting such a huge grain bag (with all the weight and effort that entails).


----------



## Damian44

Bonj said:


> It seems to me that you'd be better off, if you're spending that kind of money, getting an esky or something for a mashtun. While I have nothing against BIAB, and think it's a great development, I feel that a mashtun offers more flexibility and avoids the necessity for lifting such a huge grain bag (with all the weight and effort that entails).




I have been tossing and turning with the idea of converting my 80 litre esky into a mash tun. I was thinking of the Beer Belly conversion kit, but at $145 im not sure. Im terrible when it comes to building things. Ill look into it. I brought the esky off Ebay and didnt relise it was so big. It only fits in the front passengers seat in the car. So needles to say my brother doesnt come camping with us anymore. I really wont to order this weekend, but everytime i decide on a set up i change my mind.
Ill definatly order the Barley Crusher today while its 20% off yeah?
TYVM


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

Bonj said:


> It seems to me that you'd be better off, if you're spending that kind of money, getting an esky or something for a mashtun. While I have nothing against BIAB, and think it's a great development, I feel that a mashtun offers more flexibility and avoids the necessity for lifting such a huge grain bag (with all the weight and effort that entails).




I'm going to disagree, because I can and to keep the conversation going.  

I use a simple single-pulley rope system with a rope ratchet to lift my baggie and don't find the lifting part too hard. Admittedly, I had all the bits lying around so it did not cost me anything to make and I have a vertical house that allows it, so in that regard, I might be *cough* special *cough*.

I'd recommend doing your first couple of brews with as little equipment and expenditure as possible so you can decide for yourself what you like and do not like about what is going on. After a while you can decide if a mill/falsie/skyhook/wench is a good or bad purchase.

I've got a few things that I bought for brewing without giving it too much thought and have subsequently decided were a waste and so will always translate that into advice to start simple and take it from there...


----------



## bonj

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> I might be *cough* special *cough*.


I think you're special, spills :wub: :lol:


> I'd recommend doing your first couple of brews with as little equipment and expenditure as possible so you can decide for yourself what you like and do not like about what is going on. After a while you can decide if a mill/falsie/skyhook/wench is a good or bad purchase.


I totally agree. Except the part about the wench... you'll definitely need one of those :icon_chickcheers: 
You don't know if it's really for you until you've done a brew or two, and if you've already bought all the gear, it's too late if you change your mind about anything. There aren't many, but there are a handful of brewers that have decided AG isn't their bag (pun intended).


----------



## Thirsty Boy

I'll disagree with bonj and then agree with him as well - 

I fail to see how a mash-tun offerers more flexibility. How? I am unaware of any significant brewing technique or beer style that can't be fairly easily adapted to BiaB. If you have one, fair enough - but I've done a hell of a lot of thinking and experimenting on the topic andI have yet to come up with a beer you can brew on a mash-tun based system, that you cant brew BiaB.

Lifiting the damn bag - Jeesus, how many times have I addressed this bloody issue, I'm losing count? "lifting such a huge grain bag (with all the weight and effort that entails)" - I'm sorry but the bags are simply not that heavy - they are not that heavy - can you hear me???? They are not that heavy!!!!!!

If you use the recommended material, then for a single batch the bags weigh easily less than 10kg. Any health male type person could lift one out of the pot , hold it there for a few seconds and toss it in a bucket, without so much as needing to grunt in effort. I am 5'9", tubby and unfit and I can and have pulled a BiaB bag with one hand, just to prove I could - don't believe me?? well I did it in front of an audience at a G&G demo day because I wanted to prove the point that _the BiaB bags are not that damn heavy_!

If you do a double batch - you will need a hook or something, you'll still be able to do the lifting by hand, but it will be more awkward and life will be easier if you have a hook over your pot to hang the bag till it drains completely. But for single batches - all you need is one hand and a bucket

And yeah - I say spend the minimum you can till you find out whether you even like brewing or not

Thirsty


----------



## bonj

Well maybe I'm a weakling (actually I know I am), but lifting a double batch (that is after all what we're talking about here) bag with saturated grain sounds very awkward to me. Running off from a mashtun just seems easier to accomplish... to me. I never said you couldn't brew all the same styles with BIAB, I just think the mashtun makes life easier (*to me*). Jeez, you BIAB guys are jumpy.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

Bonj said:


> Jeez, you BIAB guys are jumpy.



Just what do you mean by that?  There is a lot of misinformation about the technique floating around, so we tend to be quick to refute it, lest the BS take hold.

I think the original questioner has decided to go old school and mess up his life with multiple vessels, anyhow...  

I've not done too many double batches - I like brewing too much, but didn't have too much trouble with (what I claim to be) the world record BIAB grain bill of 17kg (from memory). The bag held and my simple lifting device made it all easy. For normal single batches, a lift/hold/dump-in-a-bucket manoeuvre can be accomplished by your average IT guy...

I reckon anyone who brews with a standard seven-vessel system by choice is going to understand its benefits better than a BIAB guru, so I can also extrapolate that down to a typical home brew setup and surmise that they may fail to understand the natural beauty of a single-vessel system...


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Bonj said:


> Well maybe I'm a weakling (actually I know I am), but lifting a double batch (that is after all what we're talking about here) bag with saturated grain sounds very awkward to me. Running off from a mashtun just seems easier to accomplish... to me. I never said you couldn't brew all the same styles with BIAB, I just think the mashtun makes life easier (*to me*). Jeez, you BIAB guys are jumpy.



Thats not what it looked like you were saying Bonj - you said, and this is quoted from your post - ". . . I feel that a mashtun offers more flexibility and avoids the necessity for lifting such a huge grain bag (with all the weight and effort that entails)."

If the _flexibility_ bit isn't about the ability to brew beer... what is it about?

You're right though, I am jumpy about the weight thing because I have answered it so many times in the past - I'm sick of it thats all. For a double batch, yep fair enough, you will need something to help you. But a simple hook off a beam and a bit of rope isn't exactly an overly complex device.

As for the flexibility thing, that is in my opinion, plain misinformation; perhaps not deliberately so, but wrong nonetheless.

If I said that a mash tun with a false bottom was no damn good because it looked to me like you could never get a clear wort with holes that big ... just how fast and how hard do you think that my opinion would be trashed? Why should people who get the facts wrong about BiaB be taken to task any less stridently? Especially in this particular thread.

*Damian44* - I strongly suggest that you drill a hole in that aluminium pot and install a tap. It will make your life much much easier. I also don't share the opinion that you need the 100L pot. It depends, if you are always going to make double batches, then it is perhaps a better choice, but if you are going to be swapping and changing between double and single batches, then I think 100L is too big. You will get a huge boil off rate and you will have lots of surface area to lose heat during the mash. 80L will be big enough for a double BiaB batch of anything but the "biggest" beers and in a multi vessel system way more than needed for any beer at all. Spend the extra on a tap and the skyhook/hook/pulley or whatever is suitable in your situation, that you _will_ need if you are doing double batches.

But - dont chuck away that 80L eski you have. You might decide later on that a mashtun is what you want/need. Then you will kick yourself if you have gotten rid of it.

Thirsty


----------



## PistolPatch

Here's a substantial post to try and cover some of the questions on equipment etc.

Firstly, Mr Bonj! How goes it mate? Hope you haven't got scared of the BIAB thread! The guys here are actually very open-minded but as we only rely on one thread, it is very hard for guys like yourself to be able to get a thorough overview of the discussions and debates previosuly held here. This means that to date, many of the same questions have been answered multiple times which gets a bit frustrating. BTW, 5kg of malt with BIAB weighs only around 6kgs. So, it is not as heavy as anyone reckons. (I know you will have questions on 1kg of grain absorbing 1 lt of water but I won't go there now.)

The other hard thing about BIAB is that only a few traditional brewers have ever tried BIAB. The most obviously active ones being myself, ThirstyBoy and Goober in the US. I have never entered a comp but Thirsty is an accomplished competition goer (gettin last year's mash paddle with one of his traditional brews) and Goober acheived 47/50 in the US for one of his BIAB brews. There is another multi-medal winner over here that brews BIAB as well as traditional but he is maintaing a quiet front until he has had a chance to enter some BIABs in some comps. (I have tasted his BIAB beer and I think he has no worries!)

We also have Nev from Gryphon Brewing who is the highest formally educated and experienced brewer I know. He has multiple golds and awards in the lager and pilsner sections (plus many other sections) of God know how many comps. He and I are going to brew one of his gold medal recipes side by side next weekend and throw them in a comp next year to see how they fare. He has tasted many of my beers and he can't see any problems with this idea so this is a good sign for me! Because of this and and many other reasons, I no longer even question BIAB. All I focus on now is recipes.

So old mate, these are the reasons why the some of the best and most essential contributors to this thread quickly try and dampen down old discussions and already resolved debates. These guys spend hours contributing here and experimenting with beers (Spills has brewed more styles than in BJCP I think!) and their communication skills or willingness to pass on their experience are amongst the best I have seen on any forum. I'm struggling to think of any better to tell you the truth. Unlike PistolPatch, they rarely slip up in their communications. Thirsty may have slipped up a tad when he wrote, "How many times do I have to say..." but he only writes like that when he wishes to emphasise a point. I know exactly where he is coming from...

Before Thirsty thankfully turned up here, I used to be the main, "answerer," and it does take countless hours. I laugh on the rare occassion I can see Thirsty get a bit frustrated and actually send him an email taking the piss. At the moment for example, he is formulating a really interesting experiment that relates to BIAB versus traditional brewing and this takes up yet more of his time. So, his mind is looking at more advanced stuff whilst still, like some others, he is diligently trying to make sure this thread stays as accurate as possible. 

Hopefully me writing this will help you understand the graceful and most helpful place he and others are coming from. He and others write extrememley well and certainly their intention is just to be of benefit to other brewers. Unfortunateley in life, this is a concept that some people, thankfully not too many, just cannot understand.

A real passion about something can be either a very dangerous or very helpful thing. I think brewing is a pretty harmless thing to be passionate about and I think being passionate and very informative about a system of brewing that really has no downsides that can be identified in over two years is a very good thing. In my books, a productive idea is one that helps people to expand their thinking. BIAB is a great area for all brewers from those with little experience to great experience.

The best thing though that I have seen re BIAB of late is some newer BIABers starting to answer questions. Man! Have we been waiting for you! I haven't sent an email to ThirstyBoy yet but I reckon he will have been as pleased as I am to see you guys pop up. Wambesi and you others, please keep up your top work. Answer everything you can and, as you have been doing, keep an eye out for any random BIAB threads. These get missed way too much.

If you see a question that you reckon is out of your depth, then PM it to me and I will answer it or if it is too technical and hard I will handball it to Thirsty  

....

As for mash tuns Bonj, old son - LOL! I actually had a vigorous debate on this subject about a year ago in this thread. I won't go there again but mash tuns are way more complicated and messy, in so many ways than BIAB, that I don't know where to start. The only messy bit of BIAB is dumping the bag (which can be 20 second process) and then cleaning the bag. Compare that to emptying a mash tun of grain along with possible stuck sparges. Agh!

...

Whoops! I have written way more than I thought but Bonj is a good old QLD brewer (where I started to do real brewing) and he runs the Brewerhood emailing list of which I am an honorary out-of-state member so I thought he deserved a bit of an explanation of this thread as we all know that it has become too large.

I was going to write about Equipment in this post but the above is enough for now. Tomorrow I'll write what I meant to say in this post!

Suffice to say that I'm re-writing the BIAB Guide in a wholly new format which I am, at last, happy with. One of the first sections is on Equipment (including thermometers!) so hopefully tomorrow I can give an indication to brewers like Damien44 who are starting out as to what equipment they should initially aim for and be confident with. Finding the right stuff has not been an easy task. It sounds easy but has taken well over a year (probably more like two) of discussions with everyone from inexperienced to highly experienced brewers as well as retailers ranging from subtley intimidating to totally supportive and enthusiastic.

Anyway, I am finally really happy with the list of equipment. Very pleased in fact.

So Bonj, we are making progress. I reckon that in about two to three months, we will have things laid out really nicely so that others like your good self will be able to quickly see if we already have an answer to your question or whether your question is a new one which we can all discuss and explore in the same manner as has been done in almost the totality of this thread, that manner being, humourous, openly explorative, friendly and always totally aimed at helping other brewers out. Any exceptions to this are usually attributed to me and on a few occassions this has been accurate - lol.

I think PP has had one too many BIAB Pales. I better go!

Spot ya,
Pat


----------



## Damian44

I cannot thank everyone enough for there input today. I woke up this morning with a thousand question floating around in my head, and all were answered. I have ordered the Barley Crusher, so All Grain here i come. YAY&WOOT
TYVM


----------



## dr K

[With ref to BIAB]


> There is a lot of misinformation about the technique floating around, so we tend to be quick to refute it, lest the BS take hold.


No argument there.

So far as insulated mash tuns (esky conversions) go.
I know BIAB has its own way of keeping the 35 litres of mash water and 5kg of grain at a constant temp for 60 minutes.
You can pick up a new 25 litre esky for less than $25, you can make a number of basic mainfolds for just your labour and a couple of bucks (slotted copper, wire cage, braided tube, aluminium beer can etc) and you probably don't need a stainless steel tap, all up, $40 or less is not a lot of money, and certainly saves a lot of effort.
Maybe I am the sort of guy who would rather muck around with pipe and bends and nuts n bolts than sit in front of a sewing machine when it comes to my brew gear.
As to flexibility, it my opinion that an insulated mash tun set up offers more flexibility than a BIAB/single vessel, however it is my opinion only and possibly springs from an interest in decoction.
The point that Bonj was making (before he got jumped on faster than a 90lb weakling at the beach) was that a mash tun is not that expensive.
Most people who brew BIAB say they brew better beer though, I take it that they reference the beer they make (or made) by the conventional method rather than some random or constructed beer.
For these people then BIAB is viable, just as multi-vesseled double recirculating hybrid RIMS-HERMS may be for others and Kit and Kilo for others again, if you enjoy the beer you make and the beer you drink then the world is a happier place, unless you compare your beers with others for you may become vain.

K


----------



## Thirsty Boy

I think most people who say they brew better beer mean they brew better beer than they did before they went AG - At least thats what I hope they mean. Otherwise I reckon they are probably wrong, BiaB is an alternative brweing method, not a superior one. At least not in terms of the beer it produces.

Bonj, in fact didn't mention anything at all about whether mash tuns are expensive or inexpensive to make - his point was entirely unrelated to cost excepting that he thought a mash tun was a better thing to spend your money on. Fair enough, thats his point of view.

As for flexible - well, I found the couple of times I did decoction via BiaB, that it was just a little easier to get the right portion of mash ot of the mash tn and into the decoction pot when I was able to just pull the solid portion of the mash to the surface and scoop it out with a spoon. I've done decoctions on both my BiaB system and my regular system. Possible on both, near enough to equal on the effort front. So I maintain that it is as "flexible' as any other mashing technique.

Like you said though, people usually end up with the sort of system that rings their particualr personal bells - and thats a grand thing.

TB


----------



## bonj

Thanks for the post (and the email), Pat. dr K has interpreted my post correctly. I don't have the way with words that others have, and usually have to either ponder them over and over, or just type and post. Unfortunately, when I don't ponder them carefully, they are apt to be misinterpreted (just ask SWMBO :lol: ).


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Sorry bonj - didn't mean to be taking it all out on you anyway. Not supposed to be a vendetta against you, or even against mash-tuns  I quite like them and have one of my own. No more jumping I promise (well, at least not on you)

And if price is mainly what you meant, then you are indeed right. A mash tun can be had even more cheaply than DrK suggested. My one probably cost less than $30 all up for a 47L unit (it is uninsulated though). You can have a bag for less than $10 ... but hell, we are only talking $20 here.

Having used both - I think BiaB is easier to both do and understand than a mash-tun based system, which is why I tend to recommend it to new brewers. But you wont catch me denegrating the cheapie mash-tun - otherwise I'd never be able to let anyone look in my brewery.

Brew away peoples - its all gonna be beer and it most likely gonna be good.

Cheers

TB


----------



## bonj

hehe, no worries TB. 

My first system just kind of landed in my lap, so I went with the 3 vessel from the start, but I was actually gearing up to do BIAB. I like to keep an eye out on this thread, as I feel BIAB is a great innovation that should really appeal to beginners. Veterans can make up their own minds, but anything that helps newbies get started with less gear, and less outlay is great.


----------



## seemax

Well the results are in. My maiden BIAB began about a month ago with a Hefeweizen brew, mild hopped with Perle to 8IBU.

After 2 weeks in the bottle it tastes like beer, in fact a very decent beer. It was my first wheat beer and very much a departure from my last few brews. It's fresh, bubbly, sweet, subtle hopiness, a good session beer. Would be an instant hit in summer. It's been nice to alternate between this and last brew, an American IPA, the contrast is huge.

Next step will be to get some swiss voile material for a real bag and to find a decent way to insulate the pot (I have no lid). Must just mean I'll need to fire up the burner every 15mins instead.

Overall I'm a fan of BIAB and see it as a useful way to promote AG brewing without much investment. Having said that my 2nd hand esky, braided hose, pipes, etc cost me about $20 and my 36L kettle was all of $30, so overall it's been a cheap exercise.

My next project is a DIY grain mill...

Stef


----------



## PistolPatch

*Firstly* Congrats to you seemax and all those others who have started all-graining. Doing your first all-grain is a _big_ thing and I wish there was a special place or thread that enabled more people to celebrate with you.

Not too long ago, people starting all-grain was a rare event and those brewers were really made proud. I was a recipient of this special attention and I'd love to see others receive exactly the same. 

*Secondly* I _really_ need some editors for the stuff that I write here and the stuff that I want to write for BIABrewer.info.

Just the other night, I spent four hours writing a post to this thread on correct gear for BIABers to use. This ended up being 3 A4 pages. Most of what I wrote was fine but by the time I finish writing I have no energy left to tidy up the, 'dags,'of what I write. These are always really bad dags and make what I write unpublishable or inappropriate! That post (still sitting here on my computer) is a prime example. I also have a very good and similiar sized article on efficiency. This is the one I have been promising for the last month or two. It has a lot of value but is very dis-jointed.

So, I think I have some good raw stuff to offer but getting things to even that stage (for me anyway) takes an extraordinary amount of time. Polishing them is a task that would be way too inefficient if entrusted to me. Giving the final approval should definitely be left to someone else!

Are there any of you who are prepared to spend some time (a lot actually) tidying up my messes? You'd have to be pretty passionate about accurate advice, dedicated and focussed methinks but this would leave me totally free to create other messes for you to clean up! It might also give me more time to credit the people I haven't had time to yet. One of these could be or is probably you!

If so, let me know please,
Pat


----------



## Cocko

I have read a lot of this thread but can not find the answer:

Can anyone help with; One source says to add grain and raise to mash temp WHILE another says to heat water to strike temp and add grain, so which one is it?

Any thoughts?

Cheers


----------



## wambesi

Cocko said:


> I have read a lot of this thread but can not find the answer:
> 
> Can anyone help with; One source says to add grain and raise to mash temp WHILE another says to heat water to strike temp and add grain, so which one is it?
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Cheers



Hi Cocko,


Originally PP (as in the guide) had it as add the grain then raise to mash temp but has since realised it does not make much difference but was a pain.
Most people now heat water to strike temp then add grain.

Correct me if I am wrong everyone else, but thats how I am doing git now...


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

Spot on Wambesi, Its alot ezyer/safer too heat the water first .....Beats the hell out of burning your new baggie...

Cheers


----------



## reviled

Is everybody reaching mash out temps? I havent been bothering, just bringing it up to about 66-68 and taking the bag out...

What do you guys do?


----------



## stowaway

When reading a receipe.

If it says a hop is 60min boil. This means you boil it for 60mins in a hop sock and then remove.. correct?

when it says 0 min boil. do you chuck it in after the boil to stay in during the primary??


----------



## Cocko

Awesome cheers wambesi, FNQ and PP for your help.

Stowaway:
60 min: Yes, basically what you said. I don't use a hop sock just thro the pallets in...

0 min: Usually the recipe will say if 0 min is into wort or dry hopped into primary or secondary. To me 0 min means into wort at flame out... but please anyone correct me if I am wrong.

Cheers
Cocko


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Cocko said:


> I have read a lot of this thread but can not find the answer:
> 
> Can anyone help with; One source says to add grain and raise to mash temp WHILE another says to heat water to strike temp and add grain, so which one is it?
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Cheers


PP and I were thinking about this very question on the weekend.Really nothing conclusive at this stage but we did do a step mash in Patch's Biab system. so it would seem to me that adding the grain and raising the temp would actually take you through a lot of the temp ranges conventional step mash does.Next thing to work out is how to remove the left over sugars in the grain bag, this would increase the Biab systems efficiency ?
GB


----------



## sumo

I have yet to do my first BIAB / AG (building my kettle ATM and learning the theory and science of AG) but am an avid reader of this thread and anything to do with AG brewing. So to test the water....

I would assume to remove the left over sugars would require some sort of "rinsing" of the grains in the bag, recirculating wort out of the kettle and rinsing over the grain bag may do the trick if you have some sort of "funnel / hopper" over the top of the kettle and under the bag. 

If the kettle has a tap, then it would be easy enough to pour off X litres to rinse the grains with. (Using a pump etc is another option but $$$)

My concern would be extracting tannins, but the temperature of the wort should be low enough to exclude that concern.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

*Gryphon -* see Spillsmostofit's patented "dunk sparge" - then you will push the BiaB efficiency up over 80% without a problem. But - it is extra mucking about and an extra vessel ... so it takes away from some of the BiaB good points.

I look at it like this - with a bog standard "as per the guide" BiaB, you get 70+% efficiency and its is very very easy and simple - if you want to go adding complexity and general hardness ... then there are all sorts of things you can do.

Between us Spills and I have done multi step mashes, step infusions, decoctions, cereal mashes - hell I even did a reverse step mash just to see what would happen. Spills has a pilot BiaB plant that he plans to rig up as a BiaB RIMS..... as complex as you want, or as simple as you can get.

*Reviled -* You need to remember that in BiaB the mash-out isn't just achieving what a mashout does in a normal mash-tun based brewery. In a normal brewery, the mash out step raises the mash to 76-78 degrees, then there is a rest and then the sparge step is commenced. The object of the mash-out is to de-nature the enzymes in the mash and to ensure that the whole grain bed is more evenly and quickly raised to sparging temperatures. And thats the key - in a normal brewery, no matter whether they do a mash-out or not - the grain bed is raised to around 78C during the sparge. This is needed to ensure that the sugars easily transfer out of the grain and into the liquid.

In BiaB - if you don't go to the mash-out step, you are effectively trying to sparge your grain at mash temperatures, and it doesn't work as well. Probably it is a bad thing for us to refer to the raising to 78 part of a BiaB mash as the "mash-out" step. We should refer to it as the "raise to sparge temp" step; that would be more accurate as well as encouraging people to do it.

Its one of those things that I was talking about in the previous bit of my post to Gryphon - you can keep it simple and pull your bag at mash temps, or you can add a step of complexity and raise the whole thing to mash-out. I think that its worth it to "raise to sparge temperature" seeing as you have to raise the whole lot to boiling temperature anyway - and it will earn you a good few percent extra efficiency on the way. But - I'm pretty sure lots of people don't bother, so its up to you. Try it both ways and see if what you get is worth the effort to you.

Cheers

Thirsty


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

sumo said:


> I have yet to do my first BIAB / AG (building my kettle ATM and learning the theory and science of AG) but am an avid reader of this thread and anything to do with AG brewing. So to test the water....
> 
> I would assume to remove the left over sugars would require some sort of "rinsing" of the grains in the bag, recirculating wort out of the kettle and rinsing over the grain bag may do the trick if you have some sort of "funnel / hopper" over the top of the kettle and under the bag.
> 
> If the kettle has a tap, then it would be easy enough to pour off X litres to rinse the grains with. (Using a pump etc is another option but $$$)
> 
> My concern would be extracting tannins, but the temperature of the wort should be low enough to exclude that concern.


Tannins would not be an issue to me, really to me its a more of a how to do it thing , with the least amount of equipment.Originally I was thinking dumping the bag in to another vessel and rinsing but then that means two vessels , so not really a good economical idea.
GB


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## Thirsty Boy

Its been suggested a couple of times, that the main Biab mash could be done at normal L:G ratios, then top up water added to to bring the volume up to full. If that top up water were added via the grain bag sitting in a colander on top of the kettle (Pat's idea for a draining device for those without skyhooks) .... that would be a fly sparge

The sparge water need only be the very hottest water you can get out of your tap, straight onto the grain via a hose. You _would_ need to watch for tanins etc then though. It wouldn't be as "good" as a well run traditional fly sparge, but you'd for sure get pretty good efficiency. I guess mid 80's after a few tries and nailing down a solid method.

Too much trouble for me - an average 75% eff on my Biab brews is good enough for me. To each their own though.

TB


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## reviled

Id thought about trying something like dunk sparging but wasnt 100% sure and didnt have any info on it... Do you have a link for this? May seem like more effort, but would give me something to do while im waiting for my wort to come to the boil...

Reason I havent been raising to 78 or mash out is cos it takes years with my 2 burner without the lid on, so ive been skipping it cos I cant be assed stirring the mash for an hour to bring it up to 78... But this dunk sparging thing sounds interesting...


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## FNQ Bunyip

Post removed because I didnt read the next page....Doh


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## trevc

This is all just getting out of hand. Mods, can we move this to the new sub-forum?


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## wambesi

Yeh thanks for that trevc, now keeping this on track...

I raise it to "mashout temp" as we have called it, but I do it over the 10mins. I know it's probably not how some others do it and reading on thirsty's post I am going to look at spills's dunk sparge - I remember reading something about it a while ago.

I am trying something new each brew with the method, this time I adjusted the ph with citric acid and found I got a few extra points, now I am not too worried about efficiency as I am more than happy with these beers's over my kits but am always curious and adjusting to see what I can do.

Four brews down and hopefully another one or two next week while I have the week off.
Don't even have to keep the instructions/guides handy anymore


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## PistolPatch

trevc said:


> This is all just getting out of hand. Mods, can we move this to the new sub-forum?


LOL Trev - love it!

BTW, Wambesi emailed me this morning and he loved your post too. He was actually a bit worried that he came across as narky because he was in a rush. Rest-assured he laughed as much as I did!

Now Trev, is it true you are going to become the first BIAB Brewer on a Boat!!!

Gotta love that!


----------



## wambesi

PistolPatch said:


> LOL Trev - love it!
> 
> BTW, Wambesi emailed me this morning and he loved your post too. He was actually a bit worried that he came across as narky because he was in a rush. Rest-assured he laughed as much as I did!
> 
> Now Trev, is it true you are going to become the first BIAB Brewer on a Boat!!!
> 
> Gotta love that!



Yeah maybe I should take after Pat and re-read and re-write many times before hitting that post button.  
I didn't mean it to sound like that, I did actually re-phrase it once to change that!

Anyways, Pat. Sounds good about the writing thing, as I have said before more than happy to help out as much as I can.

And trev, do explain about this boat thing....BIABOAB? :huh:


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## trevc

Just about to mash-out (second batch today), so need to keep it short. My and my wife plan to move on to a sailboat ASAP, which will likely still be 2 years+. We'll basically sail the South Pacific and beyond until we get tired of it. I'm aiming to get a smaller/cheaper, yet off-shore worthy boat to carry us around. 

Now obviously, we're going to need to brew quality beer, and BIAB takes up the least space out of any real brewing method (that I'm aware of). Space is the main concern, especially considering the boat might be around 32' ish. 

I'll likely have a BIAB vessel and store as much other gear as possible in it when it's not in use. Temperature tolerant yeast will also be required.

I heard a story through a mate of mine about a guy brewing on a boat already. It sounded like he was doing BIAB or similar. His beer was good enough that he could trade it for diesel or other supplies in some remote South Pacific locations. The only beers they had in these places were boring lagers, so his exotic stuff was highly sought after


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## mesa

Oh Man,
BIABOAB sounds like a real challenge! What are you thinking for power? LPG? brewing with electricity while in dock? Batteries and wind generators? I've got vague dreams of one day using a Fresnel mirror to cut down on electricity requirements, but I wouldn't want to try it without backup heat sources.
--
Mesa.


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## trevc

Most boats already carry at least a couple of LPG tanks for the stove, etc. I'd likely take an electric BIAB kettle, and use whatever was available. I don't think most boat battery banks could handle a 2400w element(or two) running for very long.


----------



## SJW

> Most boats already carry at least a couple of LPG tanks for the stove, etc. I'd likely take an electric BIAB kettle, and use whatever was available. I don't think most boat battery banks could handle a 2400w element(or two) running for very long.


For all the trouble I would just load up with some quality commercial brews, rather than shipping tons of grain, gas and brewing equipement around the Pacific ocean.

Steve


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## Damian44

Hey guys. Im after a mash paddle, and not sure if i should get a 600mm SS paddle that should fit diagonally in my stock pot (D 440 X H 430mm) letting me close the lid. Im worried it might rip the Voile?
I also found these http://www.foodutensils.com.au/stirring-la...lass-p-554.html. There a bit short but wont rip the bag? What do you think?


TYVM


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## Thirsty Boy

I vote for a paint stirrer - just like a really big/long potato masher. Does a fantastic job of stirring things around in the really quite thin BiaB wort. Bunnings - cheap.


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## wambesi

I'm still using my one that came with the kit from the LHBS.
A plastic paddle with holes in the end.

Does the job, although if I was after a new one I would most likely go the paint stirrer.


----------



## Damian44

Thanks. Paint stirrer it is. No shineyness for me  . 
I was thinking of doing 30L batches and no-chilling in my coopers fermenter, than transfering to my 60L fermenter. Any tricks for blocking the hole in the top of the coopers fermenter? 
Thanks again.


----------



## Cocko

Airlock.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Damian44 said:


> Thanks. Paint stirrer it is. No shineyness for me  .
> I was thinking of doing 30L batches and no-chilling in my coopers fermenter, than transfering to my 60L fermenter. Any tricks for blocking the hole in the top of the coopers fermenter?
> Thanks again.


Have a look at this dry air lock.Pistol Patch thinks this is the best thing since sliced bread.Fills your hole and works a treat.
GB


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## wambesi

Cocko said:


> Airlock.



Thats what first came to my mind, but he's looking at doing it like a NC so using an airlock would draw air into it.

Blu-tack? 
I'd just find something to place over it and maybe tape it down with some gaffa tape, ahhh gaffa tape is there nothing it can't do.


----------



## wambesi

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Have a look at this dry air lock.Pistol Patch thinks this is the best thing since sliced bread.Fills your hole and works a treat.
> GB



That actually looks alright, the only drawback is having to modify the fermenter which is not really a biggie I suppose.


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## Cocko

Life's 2 rules: If it moves and isn't spose to, GAFFA! If it doesn't move and is spose to WD40!

Anyways, The airlock does bubble backwards BUT does not draw in water.... If its an over night job a fermenter and airlock is an easy solution, obviously - you have the gear!

Each to their own, just my 2c!


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## Thirsty Boy

1st - I'd reccommend a proper NC cube over doing it the fermentor - but I know there are lots who would disagree. So thats just the "my opinion" bit.

If you are going to NC in a way that lets air contact the wort - then I think you need to invest in a way to keep that air sterile. A bung with a sanitary filter jammed in it so that the air coming in has no bacteria.

If you want to block it up - well, you are pulling a vaccum, so maybe just a small circle of plastic, say cut out from a softdrink bottle lid - a smear of food grade lube (or vasaline in a pinch) and put it on top of the fermentor hole with grommet fitted. As the air inside contracts, its going to suck the little disc down harder and harder and seal it up better and better.... maybe.

TB


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## Damian44

Thanks again guys. The bottle cap idea sounds great. I just dont have enough room for cubs (or do i).
Do you ever stir your wort whilst its boiling? LOOK its shinney.... http://www.foodutensils.com.au/mixing-paddle-p-498.html
TYVM


----------



## reviled

Has anyone done a BIAB decoction mash? Im thinking of trying it but wondering how it would work, the whole removing a third of the mash water for example, id need a syphon or something? I dont have a tap on my kettle (yet)


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## raven19

Reviled - Ive only seen a decoction done where mash is taken out (grains and water) not just the water/wort. But of course with a bag this makes things difficult if you cant open and access it during mashing... <_<


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## reviled

raven19 said:


> Reviled - Ive only seen a decoction done where mash is taken out (grains and water) not just the water/wort. But of course with a bag this makes things difficult if you cant open and access it during mashing... <_<



So you end up taking out say a third of the water and the grains?!?! :huh: And then boiling it, grains and all??? Huh?

I can open the bag during mashing, I guess I could use a jug or something...


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## lollipopman

Hey Guys, I'm just about to start my first all grain with biab and I am going to be using "Ross's Schwartzbier (Lager Copy)" recipe from the BIAB_Checklist___Black_Beer.xls and using the instructions from the BIABBooklet_1_.pdf.

I have a few questions about the instructions in the BIABBooklet_1_.pdf-

1. Should you heat the water up to the 66 degrees before adding the grains? Or should you add the grains before you get to the 66 degrees and then heat it up to 66 degrees?

2. After you have added and agitated the grains and stabilised the temperate at 66 degrees should you then stop agitating (stiring) the grains for the rest of the mash or should you agitate the grains once every so often (every 1/2 hour or so)? Can you do any harm stiring the grains in the mash? Should you stir the grains before taking the bag out of the boiler?

3. Is a whirfloc tablet essential? That is the only thing from the recipe I don't have (couldn't find it on craftbrewer.com.au website where I bought the grains).

Cheers


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## Cocko

Hey mate,

I had the exact same question/s prior to my first BIAB! 

BTW - Only 6 batches in...

I found that pre-heat water and then adding grains was the more common... but it may be just the people I asked!

I heat to a few degrees above mash temp and then add grain.

Usually get my water to about 68-70%, depending on brew, and then add grain. Reason is your grain will absorb some heat.. depending on how much grain and where you wanna mash at!

As far as I can tell its an ongoing query of BIAB'ers and I don't think it really has an answer to which way is best.

I agitate as soon as I have added the grain, then 10 minutes apart.... for the rest of the mash. It is such a thin mash, if your bag is full size, then I may be going excessive but too much is better than not enough in my eyes!!

From what I have read here on AHB, and particularly of recent, Whirfloc is AS everything a mixed opinion additive. I add mine at 10 minutes but apparently it is not critical BUT does do its thing if added.....

Anyway, maybe not much info but I hope it helps!

$0.02

Cocko!


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## Thirsty Boy

Heating up after you add the grains is (I think) a typo/unclear message in the original guide, or at the very least an early method that no one uses anymore. I know that Pat (who wrote the guide) heats his water up, then adds his grain. Although I am assuming my memory is correct there, someone please let me know if I am misrepresenting the good PP.

Heat water to a little above your desired initial mash temperature - then add grain.

I am not aware of anyone that actually does it the other way around and certainly wouldn't recommend that anyone does.

Stirring - is mostly a personal preference. I sitr till the temp stabilises, stir and check the temp after 10mins, then leave it for the rest of the mash. Spillsmostofit check temp and stirs far more frequently and I know that other people do it differently again. Opening your lid and stirring it will cause you to lose more heat than leaving it closed.. so you may have to adjust your temperature more often (or at all) but apart from that it isn't going to hurt anything. Yes ...stir it well before you pull out the bag, and I recommend you also raise the whole mash up to a sparge level temperature of 76-78C before you remove the bag. Always stir constantly when adding heat to the mash.

Whirlfloc will possibly help with the final clarity and long term stability of your beer - but it is in no way "needed". Get some when you can and use it, until then your beer will be fine without it.

*Reviled* - you can do a decoction fairly easily with BIAB, but there are a few things to consider.

First - you speak of "opening your bag" .... If you are following the general guidelines for BIAB, your bag should not be closed in the first place. If you have deliberately changed this aspect of BIAB for reasons of your own, fair enough. BUT, in general the standard wisdom would have your bag open and secured around the top of your pot. Just like a bin liner in a garbage bin. The whole idea being that you are not mashing in a bag, you are mashing in a pot that happens to be lined with a bag. The bag should in no way restrict the grains etc from behaving in the same way they would if they had just been put into the pot without the bag there at all. I suspect rather strongly that closing the bag during the mash would defeat this goal significantly, as well as making it insanely hard to stir the mash effectively.

If you have your bag open and secured around the rim of your pot, then pulling a decoction fraction is ridiculously easy. You pull up the cloth on one side of your pot... soon you will begin to pull the grain fraction closer to the surface on the opposite side to where you are pulling. When the solid portion of the mash breaks the surface, you can scoop it out easily for your decoction portion (which needs to be mostly the grains, not the liquid. Just keep the minimum amount of liquid in it so you can boil it without burning it)

The you can let the rest of the grain fall back into the mash and merrily run your decoction.

Your decoction will be a little different though. In a normal decoction, you get the step from one rest temperature to the other, from adding back the boiling hot decoction portion... this works perfectly well in a "normal" mash, but a BIAB mash has a much larger volume than a normal mash, so your temp wont jump by the same amount when you put your decoction back in. You will have to add some of the temperature via your heat source on the main mash vessel. If you have brewing software... you can probably work out what temperature you need to get the mash to so that you hit your rest temp when you dump the decoction back in... but otherwise, maybe it would be better to add the decoction back in then hit the main heat source to get you the rest of the way. This is going to add even more time to your brew day though.

Decoctions are a pain in the arse, no matter which way you choose to mash. But, you can certainly do one if you BIAB and think its worth the trouble.

Thirsty


----------



## Bribie G

Usage of 40L urn.

I'm planning my BIAB + no chill setup for early to mid December and the workhorse will be a 40L electric urn and doing a batch that will end up 25L on fermentation as I will be bottling into 12 x 2L bottles.

I figure from the original PDF that the 40L urn is really going to be pushing it for full water volume + grains if using urn as a mash tun. I'm planning therefore to get a big cylindrical esky with tap and get a bag made to fit by our local seamstress on Bribie who takes all my pants up etc.. she's a gem.

So steps would be:

Use urn as HLT
Strike and mash in bag in cylindrical esky
remove and drain bag and put all sweet liquor into urn
Use urn as Kettle.
I'm trying to figure out how big an esky I'm going to need to end up with 25L in the no-chill cube. Any experienced BIABBers have any suggestions? 

Not trying to bastardise the BIAB method too much, but if I can't get a big enough esky is it acceptable to do a sort of a batch sparge and drop the drained bag back into some hot liquor to get some 'second runnings' or is this going to introduce astringent extractions from the grain husks whatever?

Edit: in answer to the question "if you are using a dedicated mash tun why bother with a bag, won't a false bottom do?" well I think it's a brilliant idea to line with bag and just yank the whole spent grain bill out in one hit and send to the compost! So my method will basically be BIAB with 2 vessels not one.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

BribieG said:


> Usage of 40L urn.
> 
> I'm planning my BIAB + no chill setup for early to mid December and the workhorse will be a 40L electric urn and doing a batch that will end up 25L on fermentation as I will be bottling into 12 x 2L bottles.
> 
> I figure from the original PDF that the 40L urn is really going to be pushing it for full water volume + grains if using urn as a mash tun. I'm planning therefore to get a big cylindrical esky with tap and get a bag made to fit by our local seamstress on Bribie who takes all my pants up etc.. she's a gem.
> 
> So steps would be:
> 
> Use urn as HLT
> Strike and mash in bag in cylindrical esky
> remove and drain bag and put all sweet liquor into urn
> Use urn as Kettle.
> I'm trying to figure out how big an esky I'm going to need to end up with 25L in the no-chill cube. Any experienced BIABBers have any suggestions?
> 
> Not trying to bastardise the BIAB method too much, but if I can't get a big enough esky is it acceptable to do a sort of a batch sparge and drop the drained bag back into some hot liquor to get some 'second runnings' or is this going to introduce astringent extractions from the grain husks whatever?
> 
> Edit: in answer to the question "if you are using a dedicated mash tun why bother with a bag, won't a false bottom do?" well I think it's a brilliant idea to line with bag and just yank the whole spent grain bill out in one hit and send to the compost! So my method will basically be BIAB with 2 vessels not one.




You have answered your own question really - if you are doing BiaB in two vessels teh way you suggest, you are more or less just replacing a false bottom/manifold with a bag. Therefore, your method much more closely resembles a batch sparge than a BiaB. So - you are actually going to be better off searching for batch sparge info to set your system up.

No astringency problems in a normal batch sparge - there wont be if you are using a bag either


As much as I like BiaB, in truth, by going down the road you suggest, you are retaining all the disadvantages of BiaB, but getting rid of most of its advantages - I think you will be better served by making yourself a nice tried and true mash tun. Use the bag as a liner for your mash tun, it isn't a bad idea - other people have done exactly the same thing. But stop thinking of it as BiaB - you are just going to confuse yourself.

OR - accept a few litres less and go with standard one vessel BiaB - You dont need to put 25L into one of teh willow cubes, I usually only put in 20-21, you just have to squish it a bit more.

Besides,your original assumption is a little flawed - that 40L urn will be right for 25L into the cube for beers up to about 1.060 (ie with about 6.5kg of grain) I calculate that you could put 24L into the cube up to 1.075 and 23 @ 1.090

So unless you are planning on making a lot of Barleywines and you insist on 25L of them... the 40L urn will be fine for filling a cube with most beers you care to make. Without the need for that separate vessel.

What you propose will work perfectly well - but I think your life will be easier and simpler if you go with either a traditional 2 vessel mash tun set up (you will want about a 45-50L eski and there is no need whatsoever for it to be cylindrical) - or a Traditional BiaB set-up

Thirsty


----------



## Bribie G

Thanks Thirsty, the only reason I was dubious about using the 40L for a mash tun was that in the original PDF the guys are using something like a 70L vessel and calculating for using the full liquor + grain volume at the start, then allowing for yanking out the spent grain, then wort evaporation during boiling etc. If the 40L can handle all the above for a final sg of around 1050 which is what I'm looking for then no probs, I'll go full BIAB in the 40L and make life cheaper and easier for myself.

As I may have mentioned I used to use a bruheat in the UK, it's basically a plastic urn, and it worked fantastically. The 'magic bullet' is that thermostat dial which the Birko has, which makes it possible to mash as well as boil. I notice that Ross has some peristaltic pumps that I could adapt to wort recirculation during mashing if they can stand around 65 degrees.

All starting to come together :icon_cheers: 

Cheers

Michael


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Its pretty easy to work out the volumes Bribie, just takes a little number crunching.

*Losses to trub/break:* 25L to a cube - means you will want about 27 of post boil volume to allow you to leave behind a couple of lites of break material and trub.

*Evaporation:* The 2400W isn't going to boil the hell out of 25+L so your evap rate wont be really high - Lets say you will probably boil off about 12-15% of your volume during a 1 hour boil - say 12% 27L is 88% of 31

*Grain Absorption:* Your grain will absorb somewhere between 0.5 & 0.75 L of water for every KG - call it 0.75 to be pessimistic. And say you are going to use 6kg of grain, which is ballpark or a little high for 27L of normal wort - so thats another 4.5L. (should give you a gravity around 1.054)

so you need 31 + 4.5 = 35.5L of water in total.

*Total Mash Volume:* Grain adds about 0.66L of volume for every kg - and you have 6kg of it - so thats an extra 4L of volume and altogethre your mash volume will be

35.5 + 4 = 39.5 - which means you just get it inside your urn 

So say you might have to sacrifice 1L of volume for each kg of extra grain you use if you want to make stronger brews. You also get back a couple of litres if you do what some people do (not the way I would do it though) and tip your whole kettle trub and all into the cube - siphoning off the clear wort on its way to the fermentor.

For a "normal" 1.050 ish beer, you just have enough room to fill that cube right up - or do a couple of less litres for stronger beer.

Oh - and you don't need to recirculate during the mash.... stirring it does the same job for your purposes. Something in the pot to keep your bag from directly touching the element, then stir well whenever the heat is on. My advice would be to not leave the element turned on while you have grain in the tun. Heat to your strike temperature, add grain - stir, take temperature. If you need to add heat - turn on the element and stir constantly till you hit your temp - then turn it off again. You can either check the temperature regularly (till you work your system out) and add heat when needed, or insulate the urn with a bit of camping mat or a sleeping bag or something, and it should lose bugger all temperature. Then you only need to add heat to get yourself up to sparge/bag-out temperature at the end of the mash.

That thermostat magic bullet - is not necessary at all and I really do suggest that during your actual mash - you ignore its existence, unless you want to stand there and stir the whole damn time anyway.

But - someone with an urn probably does all the opposite things to what I am saying - so I might be wrong. I _know_ it will work if you do it the way I say... but I don't know for sure it won't work even better another way.

Mind you I can see the attraction of using a pump to re-circulate... just set that dial and walk away, no need to stir. noice.

TB


----------



## Bribie G

Thanks for the advice, Thirsty, I've cut and pasted it into a doc and will extract the guts out of it and pin it to my notice board in the brewhouse (garage) for future ref. along with other gems from the forum like Butter's hop boiling graph etc. 

I'll post a wee blog about my first brew in a few weeks... I've actually run into a snag as pointed out on another thread that if I want to go to over 3000w I'll need to get a sparky in to fit a 15 amp socket $$$$$$$$ :unsure: so may at the end of the day need to go 2 - vessel with a 30L . Bugger Bugger, but I'm exploring all options.

As our Late Premier used to say there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Cheers
Michael


----------



## Thirsty Boy

2400W will do the trick - it'll just take a little longer to get to the boil thats all. Keeping the lid on while its rising to the boil and some insulation on the outside of the kettle - and it wont be too bad at all. Nothing like these smart buggers with their 250,000 btu gas burners... but certainly workable.

Also, get yourself a nice cheap timer - then you can have it set-up so that your strike water is already at temperature when you get out of bed/home from work/back from the footy. The urn can take an hour to get to temp if it likes, you wont be waiting around watching it though so it doesn't matter.

Of course 3000+ W is going to be faster, but you have to get the electricians in... so is it worth it to save 10 or 15 minutes on what will be a nice short BIAB brewday anyway??

Basically I am arguing from a theoretical point of view... but, I have a 2400W 40L urn that I use as a HLT in my system. If I were transferring across to full time BIAB - its what I would be using for my mash/kettle. Mind you - I am brewing a few less litres per batch than you plan too, so the little differences add up..


----------



## Bribie G

Thanks for all the info and number crunching etc, I've decided that BIAB is the way to go and have located 40l 2400w Birkos for $260 in Bris which seems like a brilliant deal.

For starters I bought a 1.5 m square of Swiss Voile from Spotlight yesterday and am at a complete loss about how to proceed. Have the services of a local lady who takes up my pants etc, now all I need is a pattern:
A -- tailored to fit the Birko

or 

B -- just a big circle that will 'fit itself' into the Birko???

Any hints appreciated.





PS: as I may be sailing close to the wind trying for a 25L ferment - both volume wise and temperature wise - I'll probably drop to 10 x 2L bottles per brew instead of 12 so BIAB is a really practical option.


----------



## Cocko

Bribie,

I borrowed a sewing machine and learnt to sew to make my bag but I must say it has come out a treat after a few tips from the old cheese. It has stood up to 7 brews with no signs of wear! ALSO I do a 7 kg grain bill and it has stood up to that very easily.

My tips would be, measure the size you need it to be, and just fold the voile over and sew up the sides! So the bottom of the bag has no seams - its just a fold... does that makes sense?? Sort of like a pillow case I guess....

Second tip would be, ask you sewing lady if she can do french seams! A french seam is were you sew one side fold it over and sew the seam into itself, basically creating a little tube so the is no exposed edges AND it really ups the strength!!

As for the draw string, no tips here... I don't use one, I just fold the bag over the top and put an ocki strap around..... works a treat!

Maybe some help in this thread as well: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...+for+BIAB\

Hope it helps!


----------



## Bribie G

Thanks Cocko, I reckon just turning it into a sort of pillow case would incorporate the best of both my proposed designs as it would fit nicely into a cylinder and as you say the bottom would not be a weak point as in my design A.

I'll have to be careful of asking about the French thingos, she might take it the wrong way


----------



## ikern

I use a 40l urn for BIAB and it works well for me. It originally had a 3000W element in it but I managed to burn it out. I should clarify that it was an exposed element. I have an old SS chip basket sitting over it to stop the bag from melting. However, beware if you element is the exposed type. If you are planning on any sort of step mashing, including using a mashout step, be sure to stir your mash constantly while the element is on. The bag and the gunk that tends to settle on the bottom of the urn during the mash tends to create a hotspot that can give you hell if you not careful (I had a unplanned rauchpilsner as a result of my experience).

I ended up getting an over the side type element to supplement the urn element to get up to boil quicker. I then just let the urn element do it's thing once I get over the 'foam' stage.

With regard to the bag, my dragon-in-law (love her really) sewed mine but I asked her to have slits on either side of the bag for the draw string to come through so when I drag the bag up the tension is spread a little more evenly.

Anywhoo, you'll be fine with the 40L and BIAB is deadset easy so all the best with it.

Cheers :beer: 

Soz


----------



## Damian44

I made my bag like your diagram, and it came out good. Make sure the circle base is a little bit bigger than the base of your pot. 
Gryphon brewing sell them. They didnt go for the drawstring. http://www.gryphonbrewing.com.au/store/pro...products_id=341

I left my bag in while heating up too mash temp and mashout temp, not knowing any better. The bags fine, but i wont be doing it again.


----------



## sumo

reviled said:


> So you end up taking out say a third of the water and the grains?!?! :huh: And then boiling it, grains and all??? Huh?
> 
> I can open the bag during mashing, I guess I could use a jug or something...



What about using multiple bags with 1/3 grain in each? Pull the bag, then syphon off 1/3 the water into another kettle etc?


----------



## daemon

A quick Q for the experienced BIAB operators, what adjustments do you make in Beer Smith for the mash profile? 

I'm currently on my first BIAB batch and wanting to enter as much data as possible into Beer Smith. So far so good, sewing the bag was fairly easy (after googling for what all the different stitches mean!) and just going for small batches to start off (20L pot). As money and space permit I'm sure I'll step to a full setup, but I was too eager to wait until then


----------



## Cocko

Hey Mate,

I am only 7 BIAB's in and don't use Beer Smith, I use Beer Alchemy a similar mac program!

I have it set to: 'Single step infusion' then the mash temp 66 eg.

I hope this is correct, it seems like the most logical..... but...

Hope that helps :huh: 

Cheers

Cocko


----------



## daemon

Cheers, just didn't know with it being a full volume mash how this affects things. Being very new to AG / BIAB I'm keen to understand it all as much as possible and using Brew Smith makes it very easy to track what I used and estimate what I'll make etc.

Here's a few quick picks from my first brew last night:



Basic bag, even a numpty like me figured out how to use the sewing machine.



The start of the mash, I put the lid on and only needed to apply heat twice (for a few minutes) during the 90m mash. Loved the smell!



Stove has a reasonable sized wok burner, which certainly helps when it came to getting a boil going.

Everything went very well so I just have to wait for the results now! It's only a 1/2 batch but a bloody cheap way to give it all a go. $20 for a pot from Big-W, $10 for the materials to make the bag and $20 for the ingredients. Now to plan my next brews and to find a source for a cheap kettle setup!


----------



## wambesi

Daemon said:


> Everything went very well so I just have to wait for the results now! It's only a 1/2 batch but a bloody cheap way to give it all a go. $20 for a pot from Big-W, $10 for the materials to make the bag and $20 for the ingredients. Now to plan my next brews and to find a source for a cheap kettle setup!



Looks the goods Daemon.
Nothing wrong with half batches - who says they're half anyway, whats a full batch? Everyone brews to different sizes.

Another great thing about smaller batches is if you stuff up or make something thats not too good, there's only a small amount to drink down, or more importantly allows you to experiment and brew more often!


----------



## Crunched

Brewed my first BIAB today - Screwy's Irish Red Ale. My setup consists of a keg-shaped 50L boiler with Mashmaster thermometer and SS tap. Using one of those 4-ring burners and a make shift wind-break (for Canberra's lovely weather today - pffft). All went well and now have a cube no-chilling away.

My OG turned out exactly as Screwy/Beersmith estimated, so I'm happy that things are so far, so good.

My first AG!


----------



## Dunno

Top work Crunched, hope it all comes up as planned for you. Just bringing my first AG (BIAB) to the boil. Have a 46lt batch of Docs Yard Glass session Light beer in the kettle. I am frequently on call at work so having a lighter beer on tap seems like a good idea. All going well so far I think. Not on call today so looking forward to the end of the boil to give my Belgian Pale on tap a decent nudge. Planning my next brew day for Friday already. Looks I have a boil going.

Cheers
Dunno


----------



## Crunched

Good stuff Dunno - glad to hear I'm not the only one having their first crack today. What sort of setup are you using?


----------



## Dunno

It is pretty simple, 80lt aluminium pot (looking to upgrade to stainless early nexy year), swiss voille bag, 3 ring burner and medium reg from BCF, using an old fashioned siphon with hose to get it to the fermenter. I think I will add a tap next year when I get a SS kettle and I am already in the planning stage of a rig to lift the bag out of the kettle for large batches. I work in Emergency response in Brisbane so I have plenty of OT in my next pay to spend on stuff to upgrade, I have a mill 1st on my list to allow bulk grain purchases. Love the smell, enjoying the process and now can't wait to taste the beer. Couldn't wait for the Belgian Pale so I hope I don't scew it up from here.

Impatience is a virtue.

Dunno


----------



## br33zy

Hi All,

With some new bling on order from beerbelly, I'm just re-reading the excellent BIABBooklet_1_.pdf to check a few things.

There are a couple of mentions of 'clarity' in the pitch section:

"To assist with clarity, I siphon the first 200 mls or so into the empty jug pinching
the siphon tube as soon as I see the wort running clear."

and

"Monitor the siphon tube, pinch and remove it as soon as you see the clarity
deteriorate. If you have a 25 litre fermenter then you may have to stop the siphon before clarity deteriorates i.e. when the
fermenter level reaches the 23 litre mark."

So what exactly will I be trying to prevent from reaching the fermenter here? Soggy hops and cold break? 

I guess up until now we've been doing partial extracts and full extracts and have had too much other stuff to worry about with our ghetto equipment (picture burning wooden pot stands over jury rigged back-packing stoves and the like) to worry about clear wrt. In fact our last extract brew - a SNPA clone, tastes absolutely superb despite having dropped the entire contents of the hop-sock into the fermenter while pitching!

We'll also be adopting the no-chill method along with BIAB. And by my reading that means we can just let the time in the chilling cubes do the work of settling all the particulate matter out to give us a nice clear wrt. Is that a fair interpretation?

Cheers

Mike

P.S. Beerbelly have been absolutely brilliant in helping me make my purchase decisions BTW. And apart from their service, their price (98l SS plus tap and thermometer) was lower than anywhere I could find on the web. Well and truly recommended.


----------



## Bribie G

Hi Breez, I'm going BIAB / No Chill week after next and will be using a 40L urn. I've been thinking along the same lines as yourself and have decided to extend a 'method' I have used in my partials, although we're only talking 8 litres there.

Being an Urn I'll be using the tap not syhphoning, but principle is the same and I've decided to:


Use hop sock
Use whirlfloc (Irish Moss) in the kettle
At the end of the boil, whirlpool the mix and leave for 20 mins to settle
Carefully remove hopsock and empty contents into a funnel (ss if I can get one) with a sterilized stainless steel kitchen scrubber pushed down into the cone, with the hop bed sitting on top.
Drain the urn through the spent hop bed into the cube
I have found, with partials, that a hop bed does an amazing job of filtering out the hot break. I just used to pour the whole lot through the hops into the fermenter and found heaps of slimy break sitting on the hops afterwards. With a full size BIAB brew, whirlpooling then resting I expect to get little or no hot break into the cube.

Or should I say I _hope_ to get....


----------



## br33zy

BribieG said:


> Hi Breez, I'm going BIAB / No Chill week after next and will be using a 40L urn. I've been thinking along the same lines as yourself and have decided to extend a 'method' I have used in my partials, although we're only talking 8 litres there.
> 
> Being an Urn I'll be using the tap not syhphoning, but principle is the same and I've decided to:
> 
> ...
> 
> I have found, with partials, that a hop bed does an amazing job of filtering out the hot break. I just used to pour the whole lot through the hops into the fermenter and found heaps of slimy break sitting on the hops afterwards. With a full size BIAB brew, whirlpooling then resting I expect to get little or no hot break into the cube.
> ...



Hi Bribieg (Urnie?),

I think you're right about that hop bed. We've been suspending the hop sock over the fermenter and pouring the cooled wrt through it too. Great results, even if we do occasionally drop one side of the bag and spill the spent hops in.

Does the whirlpooling leave most of the hops/hot break/sediment at the centre of the vessel - away from the pickup?

Given that the BIAB instructions instruct us to skim the scum (which I assume to be hot-break). I wonder whether we can just pour the whole lot into the cubes un-filtered? (Partly because it will have lots of time to settle out in the cube; partly because one of the factors in no-chilling is to get the freshly boiled wrt into the cubes quick enough that it can help sanitise the cube.)

Cheers

Breezy


----------



## Bribie G

Yes the whirlpooling concentrates the trub into a little hill in the centre of the vessel. Apparently this was first mathematically set out by Albert Einstein no less as everyone else thought that centrifugal force would necessarily send stuff to the outside of the vessel.

I checked my cube last night and although it's a 20L it actually holds 23.5 when full but in my case there's no room for wastage as I do 24 L brews for 12 x 2L pet bottles and it looks like I'll be at the limit of my equipment as I'll have to brew to slightly over gravity and dilute in the fermenter, so personally I won't have any leeway for trub in the cube.

Depending on the size of your cube you may be ok.

The way I look at it, if the cube is sterilized and the rate of transfer isn't too slow I don't run any greater risk of infection than if I were doing kits or partials. I'll be crash chilling cube overnight - it's a Willow Jerrycan that fits neatly in my beer fridge - and pitch next day so don't anticipate running into bug problems. Admittedly might be a different ball game if I were doing what some guys do and store cube for weeks for whatever reason.

We'll have to compare notes in a few weeks

Cheers 
Michael


----------



## br33zy

BribieG said:


> Yes the whirlpooling concentrates the trub into a little hill in the centre of the vessel. Apparently this was first mathematically set out by Albert Einstein no less as everyone else thought that centrifugal force would necessarily send stuff to the outside of the vessel.



I was hoping you'd say that. I've been thinking about whirlpooling for a while - this forum is greatly distracting in that regard! - and now I know we'll be doing it too.



BribieG said:


> I checked my cube last night and although it's a 20L it actually holds 23.5 when full but in my case there's no room for wastage as I do 24 L brews for 12 x 2L pet bottles and it looks like I'll be at the limit of my equipment as I'll have to brew to slightly over gravity and dilute in the fermenter, so personally I won't have any leeway for trub in the cube.
> 
> Depending on the size of your cube you may be ok.


That makes a lot of sense. You've got a well defined work-flow there. Our bottle bank is not nearly as homogenous



BribieG said:


> We'll have to compare notes in a few weeks
> 
> Cheers
> Michael



Definitely Michael (!) - good luck with your AG thermonuclear debut

Cheers

Mike


----------



## Taster

I have been brewing with kits only and Ive been thinking of taking the next step into using grains. The info you have supplied on B.I.A.B is excellent and I'm looking forward to having a crack at it.

Regards
Taster.


----------



## wambesi

Taster said:


> I have been brewing with kits only and Ive been thinking of taking the next step into using grains. The info you have supplied on B.I.A.B is excellent and I'm looking forward to having a crack at it.
> 
> Regards
> Taster.



G'Day Taster, Good stuff. It really is so easy to do. Keep us updated and if you need to know anything just ask.
On a side note, if you throw in your location in your profile info you might have other brewers in the area who could help out/invite over etc.


----------



## reviled

Taster said:


> I have been brewing with kits only and Ive been thinking of taking the next step into using grains. The info you have supplied on B.I.A.B is excellent and I'm looking forward to having a crack at it.
> 
> Regards
> Taster.



Good man, Do it!!! You will honestly not regret it, just like many others :icon_cheers:


----------



## Bribie G

Taster said:


> I have been brewing with kits only and Ive been thinking of taking the next step into using grains. The info you have supplied on B.I.A.B is excellent and I'm looking forward to having a crack at it.
> 
> Regards
> Taster.



Onya Taster, and if you are in a location where you can pick up your own grain then it can actually save you money vs kits and bits as well as better beer.

Next week hopefully Thursday I'll be doing my first BIAB brew. No 2 brewboy is giving me a hand and I'll post a series of piccies here (unless one of us drops the camera into the wort which knowing me is not out of the question :lol: Dad always used to say "Mick you need to develop some manual dexterity"  - AG brewing is a good place to start)

Watch this space.


----------



## tdack

Regarding the material used to make the bag ....

I've made up a larger bag for my partials from the voile and I'm thinking of making the transition to BIAB (need gas ring, regulator and big pot first), but I'm not too sold on the voile. My attempt to use it as a hop sock during a boil resulted in a bit of a hole being melted in the voile and the hops all escaped. I've fixed that by shortening the sock and it shouldn't happen again, but I'd hate for a full batch of grain to escape!

Can anyone see any problems using fine muslin for the bag instead of the voile?


----------



## wambesi

I would advise against it, I use muslin for other uses around the brewery/kitchen and it's just not that strong compared. IMO.

The swiss voile is perfect for this and you won't burn a hole in it as you don't boil the mash, if you do need to apply heat to it to maintain the temp (which I do for 5 or so mins) use a cake rack in the bottom so the bag sits up off the pot.

People have tried using other materials but it always seems to come back (at least most cases anyway) to the voile.
Make the leap though, it's great stuff!


----------



## Bribie G

False bottoms available from our sponsors to avoid bag material sitting on the bottom of the gas heated boiler or draping over an electric heating element.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Troy Dack said:


> Regarding the material used to make the bag ....
> 
> I've made up a larger bag for my partials from the voile and I'm thinking of making the transition to BIAB (need gas ring, regulator and big pot first), but I'm not too sold on the voile. My attempt to use it as a hop sock during a boil resulted in a bit of a hole being melted in the voile and the hops all escaped. I've fixed that by shortening the sock and it shouldn't happen again, but I'd hate for a full batch of grain to escape!
> 
> Can anyone see any problems using fine muslin for the bag instead of the voile?



Muslin will probably work - there is at least someone here on AHB who is using it as a BIAB bag with success... the thing is, there are a lot more people using the voile with success.

It one of those things, pretty much anything that is a fine mesh, that you think is reasonably food grade, is strong enough and can take the heat - will probably work. Nylon, muslin .... no doubt all sorts of other stuff.

BUT, the one material that we _know for sure_ works, is the voile. Its cheap, its readily available and it is tried and tested by many other brewers.

So its up to you really, I'm sure you can make another material work for you... but I am even more sure that you could make the voile work.

TB


----------



## Cocko

Yep voile works for me.

Swiss voile, its a curtain material, a shear, NOT COTTON voile but a synthetic..

Read this: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...+for+biab\

Happy AG'ing!!!


----------



## reviled

BribieG said:


> False bottoms available from our sponsors to avoid bag material sitting on the bottom of the gas heated boiler or draping over an electric heating element.



Or to save cash, you can simply roll the sides of the bag up so that the bag sits about 10cm from the bottom, then tie the bag to the pot around the lid... Worked for my first 4 BIAB's, no melted bag B)


----------



## apd

Thirsty Boy said:


> Muslin will probably work - there is at least someone here on AHB who is using it as a BIAB bag with success...




That one person is probably me. I know I bang on about muslin a bit but I'm really not comfortable with the food grade quality of nylon/polyester/whatever voile is. So I use muslin. It's a 2 x 1m piece, doubled over. Plenty of strength. I haven't sewn it, it's just draped into the pot and secured with a few pegs around the lip. 

Andrew


----------



## troydo

hi guys, I'm sorry i haven't read the whole 80 pages of this post but i have a question.

I use a 3 vessel system, but the other day i wanted to do a crazy test beer and only wanted 4L so i did a BIAB stove top setup.

i noticed the wort was very very cloudy, in the 3 vessel system you recirculate it for a fair time to get a clear wort into the kettle, however with BIAB you get what you get... whats everyone's thoughts on this?


----------



## Thirsty Boy

its cloudy... so what? why do you recirculate to get clear wort?

I've been studying brewing for a while now and cant find a reason that is actually supported by any recent studies. In most cases where I have looked at reasons brewers quote for trying to get a clear wort... I can find another brewer or another text that says that its not a concern.

My brief take on the science is - 

That a turbid wort contains more lipids and fatty acids as well as polyphenols and protiens than does clear wort - what affect does this have on the beer? Depends - Increased lipids can lead to premature staling and head degradation - but if you have an effective boil and trub separation process, then the lipid and fat content of cast wort is going to be basically comparable between cloudy and clear worts, higher in the turbid, but not particularly so. So it doesn't matter a lot really - except that the trub separation is going to be a little harder in a cloudy wort because you will have more trub. The proteins and polyphenols cause slightly lower utilisation of bittering compounds. And turbid worts contain more anthocyanogens which lead to haze in aged beers. It also screws up a few process things if you happen to be a production brewery

There are a few other things as well, but the upshot is that there are very few things about a cloudy wort that are going to negatively effect the flavour or clarity of your beer - there are a couple that _might_ affect the stability of the beer over time. Both in flavour and appearance.

The upside is that turbid worts lead to healthier and more vigorous fermentations than does bright wort. But thats the only downside to clear wort really... so thats why most brewers go with "clearer = better" cloudy wort isn't really all that bad... but clear wort definitely isn't bad, so its shooting for the safety zone to aim for clear wort.

IMHO the _predominant_ reason that home brewers try to achieve a clear wort, is because brewers like the way it looks and because the brewer/book they learned how to brew from told them it was important. When for the most part it isn't particularly.

I recirculate enough so that there are no chunky bits and then it goes to the kettle, by the time I get to teh end of my sparge its bright anyway - when I BIAB, well BIAB lets no chunky bits through and thats good enough for me in most cases.

Thirsty

PS - I don't pretend to be a font of brewing knowledge, I _have_ been looking at text books while typing this


----------



## reviled

Hey Thirsty, maybe you can help shed some light...

We recently did our case swap, and all the BIAB beers have what seems to be chill haze, but its not a chill haze that goes away when the glass warms up, so we were thinking maybe its something else??

I know that myself personally, I dont discard the cloudy wort at the start of syphon like you told me to in the guide, could this be the reason?

I recently started gelatining but the chill (or whatever) haze is still there in full force :unsure:


----------



## bonj

Thanks for the very informative post Thirsty Boy. One of the things that makes this forum so great is the wealth of information that is so readily handed out by those in the know. I think some of our brewing practices come directly from large breweries where it is a concern for whatever reason, but don't actually translate that well to very small scale breweries like ours. It probably won't stop me from recirculating, because I'm conditioned into it now.... and it looks perty 

*Reviled:* Check out this link for pretty good info about beer hazes. The simplified, condensed version is: good solid boil and boil for 90 minutes... you may find other things in here that will apply to you also: http://www.brewerssupplygroup.com/pdf/know...eBeer_Hazes.pdf


----------



## reviled

Bonj said:


> Thanks for the very informative post Thirsty Boy. One of the things that makes this forum so great is the wealth of information that is so readily handed out by those in the know. I think some of our brewing practices come directly from large breweries where it is a concern for whatever reason, but don't actually translate that well to very small scale breweries like ours. It probably won't stop me from recirculating, because I'm conditioned into it now.... and it looks perty
> 
> *Reviled:* Check out this link for pretty good info about beer hazes. The simplified, condensed version is: good solid boil and boil for 90 minutes... you may find other things in here that will apply to you also: http://www.brewerssupplygroup.com/pdf/know...eBeer_Hazes.pdf



Cheers bud ill have a read now.. :icon_cheers:


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Yeah, you sort of answered your own question - if the haze doesn't disappear when the beer warms up, its not chill haze. Although over time - chill haze can turn into permanent haze. As you can see in teh article.

It could be protein haze, it could be yeast haze... lots of different stuff could be causing it. BUT - I am pretty confident that its not BIAB in and of itself - I have had plenty of BIAB beers that were perfectly clear both from a chill and a non chill haze perspective. So its not that the process itself leads inevitably to hazy beer. That doesn't mean that the fact that you BIAB isn't more drastically exposing another aspect of your process that leaves something to be desired.

It could be something non-mash related that you are doing, it could be the way your are BIABing, or it could be that BIAB is making worse something else that wouldn't be so bad if you used another method... hard to tell. BUT there is no particular reason for your beer to be hazy just because you BIAB.

I dont know if your syphon technique could be doing it - the guide is Pistol Patch's work remember, not mine, and apart from a bit of a look through, I really haven't read it all that thoroughly, so I'm not certain of where in the process you refer to. Still, try following that advice and see if it helps, I'm sure Pat put it in there for a reason.

I'd look at your boil, some kettle finings, your hot break separation and perhaps your wort chilling technique - all that for protein / polyphenol type hazes.

Your transfer, racking and bottling/kegging techniques if its maybe a yest haze

The other thing to do is to make sure you have complete conversion in your mash - if there is unconverted starch then you will get a permanent haze from that. Do a search for "Iodine Test" or starch test and you will get info on how to test whether your mash has converted fully. This is a likely culprit actually. If you have unconverted starch in your mash, then its going to make it straight through the bag without slowing down.

TB


----------



## Bribie G

Troydo said:


> hi guys, I'm sorry i haven't read the whole 80 pages of this post but i have a question.
> 
> I use a 3 vessel system, but the other day i wanted to do a crazy test beer and only wanted 4L so i did a BIAB stove top setup.



Troydo, are you the experimental potato beer guy I met at the Babbs meeting? I've been thinking about what you said about wort clarity and I plan to hit it on all fronts with 

kettle finings and whirlpooling
filtering hot break out through a hop bed
racking to secondary
gelatine or isinglass
polyclar

I'll bring a couple of bottles in Jan to check it out in person

Cheers
Michael


----------



## reviled

Thirsty Boy said:


> Yeah, you sort of answered your own question - if the haze doesn't disappear when the beer warms up, its not chill haze. Although over time - chill haze can turn into permanent haze. As you can see in teh article.
> 
> It could be protein haze, it could be yeast haze... lots of different stuff could be causing it. BUT - I am pretty confident that its not BIAB in and of itself - I have had plenty of BIAB beers that were perfectly clear both from a chill and a non chill haze perspective. So its not that the process itself leads inevitably to hazy beer. That doesn't mean that the fact that you BIAB isn't more drastically exposing another aspect of your process that leaves something to be desired.
> 
> It could be something non-mash related that you are doing, it could be the way your are BIABing, or it could be that BIAB is making worse something else that wouldn't be so bad if you used another method... hard to tell. BUT there is no particular reason for your beer to be hazy just because you BIAB.
> 
> I dont know if your syphon technique could be doing it - the guide is Pistol Patch's work remember, not mine, and apart from a bit of a look through, I really haven't read it all that thoroughly, so I'm not certain of where in the process you refer to. Still, try following that advice and see if it helps, I'm sure Pat put it in there for a reason.
> 
> I'd look at your boil, some kettle finings, your hot break separation and perhaps your wort chilling technique - all that for protein / polyphenol type hazes.
> 
> Your transfer, racking and bottling/kegging techniques if its maybe a yest haze
> 
> The other thing to do is to make sure you have complete conversion in your mash - if there is unconverted starch then you will get a permanent haze from that. Do a search for "Iodine Test" or starch test and you will get info on how to test whether your mash has converted fully. This is a likely culprit actually. If you have unconverted starch in your mash, then its going to make it straight through the bag without slowing down.
> 
> TB



Cheers buddy ill look into this starch conversion thing first, and then try the syphon technique... I guess the trick is to try things one at a time so I know what it is?


----------



## troydo

cheers thirsty! that helps.. that said i think 3 vessel is easer than biab i dont burn myself as much HAHAHAHHA

bribie g yep thats me... i'll bring some along to the jan meeting  

about to go geletain the carboy now 

T


----------



## reviled

Thought id update my results from yesterdays brew and another increase in efficiency B) 

Basically, took the water volume I would normally use for the mash, then take out about 4 litres of water... 

Heat to strike temp, dough in, mash for an hour... Then when bringing to mash out temp, added 1.7 litres of boiling water to assist the mash getting to temp (stirring well of course)

When reached mash out temp of 78, half remove the bag, leaving the bottom of the bag suspended in liquid, then sort of sparged the top of the bag with about 1.5 litres of near boiling water, squeezed the bag, then placed it into a bucket...

I then sparged the bag in the bucket with another litre of water, drained it through, squeezed the bag, then put whatever liquor into the kettle...

This saw me with an OG of 1058 - 20 litres from 5kg of grain, big improvement from what I was getting...

Hopefully this is helpfull to some people, I dont know why it helps or what its doing, but it worked... Ill post up with the finished result also..


----------



## geoffi

reviled said:


> Hey Thirsty, maybe you can help shed some light...
> 
> We recently did our case swap, and all the BIAB beers have what seems to be chill haze, but its not a chill haze that goes away when the glass warms up, so we were thinking maybe its something else??
> 
> I know that myself personally, I dont discard the cloudy wort at the start of syphon like you told me to in the guide, could this be the reason?
> 
> I recently started gelatining but the chill (or whatever) haze is still there in full force :unsure:




Do you use whirlfloc? I'm not a BIABer, but I find that makes a noticeable difference to my finished beers


----------



## apd

g'day reviled,



reviled said:


> Basically, took the water volume I would normally use for the mash, then take out about 4 litres of water...





reviled said:


> When reached mash out temp of 78, half remove the bag, leaving the bottom of the bag suspended in liquid, then sort of sparged the top of the bag with about 1.5 litres of near boiling water, squeezed the bag, then placed it into a bucket...



This is similar to what I do except I completely remove the bag and rest it on an oven rack that sits across the kettle opening. This way I can give the bag a good squeeze and press against the rack and it also leaves me with two hands to do the mini sparge.

About the sparge water being near boiling water - I thought anything over 80*C in contact with the grains would risk extracting tannins. 

Andrew


----------



## reviled

Im not using a whirfloc or anything, ive been thinking about it, or koppafloc or something...

And yeah, I thought about tannins, but I wasnt sure, couldnt be too much extracted... ill update when i try the beer, if its tannin city then ill know for next time


----------



## reviled

Also, thought I would add the feedback I got when I went to get my malt yesterday (the HBS guy held the brewers guild bbq at his place on saturday)

I got asked if my ears were burning on sunday? I asked why, and he told me they were all talking about my beer, and all amazed at how I could make such good beer with my method, alot of them were shocked and stunned when I was telling them how I did it, but at the end of the day, they all agreed that it was really good beer, which is what matters the most right?

So...... For that, BIAB, I love you :wub:


----------



## katzke

reviled said:


> Im not using a whirfloc or anything, ive been thinking about it, or koppafloc or something...
> 
> And yeah, I thought about tannins, but I wasnt sure, couldnt be too much extracted... ill update when i try the beer, if its tannin city then ill know for next time



It takes more then just heat to release tannins. Take Decoction mashes as an example. Part of the grain is removed with just enough wort to keep it liquid and then boiled. pH is what extracts the tannin and then hot sparge water rinses it out.

As long as your pH was ok then you should not have any extra tannin in your brew.

Congrats on everyone liking your BIAB beer. Got compliments on my last brew at a meeting also. Not sure if they believe me about the odd brewing method and I did not bring it up either.


----------



## reviled

katzke said:


> It takes more then just heat to release tannins. Take Decoction mashes as an example. Part of the grain is removed with just enough wort to keep it liquid and then boiled. pH is what extracts the tannin and then hot sparge water rinses it out.
> 
> As long as your pH was ok then you should not have any extra tannin in your brew.
> 
> Congrats on everyone liking your BIAB beer. Got compliments on my last brew at a meeting also. Not sure if they believe me about the odd brewing method and I did not bring it up either.



Cheers buddy, seems it will all be ok then


----------



## Thirsty Boy

katzke said:


> It takes more then just heat to release tannins. Take Decoction mashes as an example. Part of the grain is removed with just enough wort to keep it liquid and then boiled. pH is what extracts the tannin and then hot sparge water rinses it out.
> 
> As long as your pH was ok then you should not have any extra tannin in your brew.
> 
> Congrats on everyone liking your BIAB beer. Got compliments on my last brew at a meeting also. Not sure if they believe me about the odd brewing method and I did not bring it up either.



Yep, and thats where I think there could be a problem here - not saying definitely, but certainly there could be.

In a "normal" fly sparge, the grain bed is still wet all the way through - the clear water is added to the top and starts to rinse out the sugars, eventually rinsing them all out and resulting in a layer of basically clean water with spent grain in it - this layer moves down through the grain bed and when the gravity drops and the ph starts to go up - fly spargers know they are hitting the really dilute bit that probably has lots of extracted tannins etc in it, and they stop.

If you are sparging what is effectively a "dry" grain bed sitting in a colander or whatever above your kettle - then there is a pretty good chance that the boiling water (heat) at pH 7 ish (high pH) will combine to pull tannins out of your grist. But because its a bit of a random thing going on there... its going to be hard to tell. It might be OK, it might not. It might be OK this time, but not next time... all a bit hit and miss.

If you are keen to add a "sparge" type step to your process, I would be more inclined to go with a "dunk sparge"

As you did already, reserve 4 or 5 litres or even more of your normal mash in water, heat it up to a proper sparge temperature of 78C and after you have pulled your bag and let it drain a bit, dunk the bag into the sparge water like a big teabag. Stir it round well and drain/squeeze.

What you are effectively doing then is batch sparging. And you shouldn't have tannin extraction problems with that. BUT, best of all, you can check. Measure the pH of the grain/water mix in your sparge bucket and see if it is more than 6... if not - No problems. If so, well you can acidify the sparge water, use less of it or just give it a miss. You will see a percentage gain in efficiency of 5%+ from a dunk sparge.

But remember - its all extra steps and time and equipment. And by the time you have it all set up to bugger about sparging your BIAB... you could probably have set yourself up a nice tried and true batch sparge system in an eski.

I re-iterate.... efficiency is only important as a quantity that you need to know, so you can hit your numbers. Otherwise its just about cost and penis size.

If your bog standard, run of the mill, don't change a thing BIAB is giving you results where you get less than 70% efficiency (measured at pre-boil) on a wort of 1.050 or less, then you are doing something wrong. And as far as I am concerned, 70 odd % efficiency is plenty good enough. Anything extra is just gravy.

The dunk sparge will improve things efficiency wise for sure... is it worth the trouble? Not in my book. The other sparge methods people have described - well, if they aren't extracting tannins, they aren't. But I would call them risky and probably even more trouble than a dunk sparge.

BIAB has its strong points - but if you are going to trade them off in order to get extra efficiency, then I seriously recommend that you consider another way of brewing. BIAB is designed as a no sparge technique, shoehorning in sparges etc is just giving you the worst of both worlds. I believe that BIAB is the simplest and easietst way of grain brewing, but I am damn sure you can make it hard if you try. Better to do it well with one of the other techniques than badly with BIAB.

TB


----------



## Bribie G

As usual Thirsty you have put me right on efficiency, trade offs and mucking around too much with the basic BIAB technique. I too had been thinking along the lines of mashing thicker then doing a mash out, doing a dunk sparge etc. At the end of the day what I have decided (virgin brew tomorrow) is not to obsess about efficiency, just follow the BIAB pure and simple guidelines - but as an 'insurance policy' B) just up the grain a tad. For example I picked up six grain bills from Ross today. For the style and strength I am looking for, received wisdom indicates 4.5 kg of Maris Otter plus crystal etc. I've gone 5 kg and hope to hit a sweet spot there. 
The worst that can go wrong is that I have spent $1.70 too much - big deal - and the best outcome is that the final beer will get me more pis$ed. :super:


----------



## kenlock

BribieG said:


> As usual Thirsty you have put me right on efficiency, trade offs and mucking around too much with the basic BIAB technique. I too had been thinking along the lines of mashing thicker then doing a mash out, doing a dunk sparge etc. At the end of the day what I have decided (virgin brew tomorrow) is not to obsess about efficiency, just follow the BIAB pure and simple guidelines - but as an 'insurance policy' B) just up the grain a tad. For example I picked up six grain bills from Ross today. For the style and strength I am looking for, received wisdom indicates 4.5 kg of Maris Otter plus crystal etc. I've gone 5 kg and hope to hit a sweet spot there.
> The worst that can go wrong is that I have spent $1.70 too much - big deal - and the best outcome is that the final beer will get me more pis$ed. :super:



Good luck tomorrow BribieG! Having done my first AG BIAB on Melbourne Cup Day, and my second on the weekend, I agree that not obsessing about efficiency, etc is a good idea. 

You'll have a great time getting to know the procedure and how your equipment reacts. Then the long wait to taste your first AG.

It is worth it!  

Can't wait to hear your account of the day.

Cheers Kenlock


----------



## Bribie G

*BribieG's brew day.*

Assistant Cannibal Smurf from the Gold Coast arrived about 20 minutes before dough in, accompanied by Smurfette who handled the video camera, and they intend to edit and post on YouTube in a couple of weeks, other projects permitting.

Equipment: 40L Birko Urn, Swiss Voile bag, skyhook pulley, hop sock, etc.

Using tank water, and with a complete collection of water salts I couldn't make sense of John Palmer so just put in a level teaspoon of everything plus two teaspoons of Calcium Carbonate as I'm doing a Yorkshire Bitter. Ended up tasting like water  

Grain bill 5kg Maris Otter floor malted , 200 medium crystal, 100 dark crystal.

Urn heated up surprisingly quickly to strike temp of 68, looking for 66 mash. Hit 66 spot on. Swaddled immediately with a single feather doonah and strapped, we don't use the doonah for sleeping as it's Chinese and smells like wet chickens but the wort doesn't mind.

Quick sandwich and salad lunch then took the Smurfs on a tour of Bribie Island and _wahoo_, came upon the Cellarbrations on the surfside who had a pallete of Kaiserdom one litre cans with a one litre stein for $15. Suitably shopped we returned to rescue the mash. On entering the garage the malt aroma hit us straight away. :icon_drool2: 

Mash had dropped one degree in an hour. Hoisted and squeezed the bag and ended up with target pre boil volume, cranked up urn which raised wort to rolling boil after about half an hour then added 45 g NZ fuggles flowers.

Beer O'clock, nice ice cold fake lager (partial) in Boddingtons pint glasses miraculously disappeared in quick succession, punctuated only by trips to the nicely rolling boil to add 20g EKG pellets 20 mins and 20g Styrian Goldings 5 mins.At some stage we added a whirlfloc tablet that fizzed like a berocca (impressed  ) Troydo may be interested that wort (discounting the crumbs of hot break, of course) came out crystal clear. 

Hoisted impressively full hopsock and drained, flame out, whirlpooled and put lid back on urn for fifteen minutes to let crud settle somewhat.

Cubed. Collected a litre along the way for starter of WYeast West Yorkshire. 

Great social day, Veronica got on well with the Smurfs & reciprocal and we hit every possible sweet spot in the process.

Still can't believe how smoothly it went. 

Now to nurse my new creation, the wort tasted like an angel crying on my tongue (apologies to old Fosters ad  )


----------



## reviled

BribieG said:


> *BribieG's brew day.*
> 
> Assistant Cannibal Smurf from the Gold Coast arrived about 20 minutes before dough in, accompanied by Smurfette who handled the video camera, and they intend to edit and post on YouTube in a couple of weeks, other projects permitting.
> 
> Equipment: 40L Birko Urn, Swiss Voile bag, skyhook pulley, hop sock, etc.
> 
> Using tank water, and with a complete collection of water salts I couldn't make sense of John Palmer so just put in a level teaspoon of everything plus two teaspoons of Calcium Carbonate as I'm doing a Yorkshire Bitter. Ended up tasting like water
> 
> Grain bill 5kg Maris Otter floor malted , 200 medium crystal, 100 dark crystal.
> 
> Urn heated up surprisingly quickly to strike temp of 68, looking for 66 mash. Hit 66 spot on. Swaddled immediately with a single feather doonah and strapped, we don't use the doonah for sleeping as it's Chinese and smells like wet chickens but the wort doesn't mind.
> 
> Quick sandwich and salad lunch then took the Smurfs on a tour of Bribie Island and _wahoo_, came upon the Cellarbrations on the surfside who had a pallete of Kaiserdom one litre cans with a one litre stein for $15. Suitably shopped we returned to rescue the mash. On entering the garage the malt aroma hit us straight away. :icon_drool2:
> 
> Mash had dropped one degree in an hour. Hoisted and squeezed the bag and ended up with target pre boil volume, cranked up urn which raised wort to rolling boil after about half an hour then added 45 g NZ fuggles flowers.
> 
> Beer O'clock, nice ice cold fake lager (partial) in Boddingtons pint glasses miraculously disappeared in quick succession, punctuated only by trips to the nicely rolling boil to add 20g EKG pellets 20 mins and 20g Styrian Goldings 5 mins.At some stage we added a whirlfloc tablet that fizzed like a berocca (impressed  ) Troydo may be interested that wort (discounting the crumbs of hot break, of course) came out crystal clear.
> 
> Hoisted impressively full hopsock and drained, flame out, whirlpooled and put lid back on urn for fifteen minutes to let crud settle somewhat.
> 
> Cubed. Collected a litre along the way for starter of WYeast West Yorkshire.
> 
> Great social day, Veronica got on well with the Smurfs & reciprocal and we hit every possible sweet spot in the process.
> 
> Still can't believe how smoothly it went.
> 
> Now to nurse my new creation, the wort tasted like an angel crying on my tongue (apologies to old Fosters ad  )




Good stuff Bribie, welcome to the world of AG BIAB :beerbang: Glad it all went smoothly for you! Sounds like the Urn worked really well too!


----------



## ikern

Congratulations on breaking the seal, popping the cherry etc etc :icon_chickcheers: 

Equipment: 40L Birko Urn, Swiss Voile bag, skyhook pulley, hop sock, etc.

I too am an electro-BIAB-no-chiller and reckon it's the duck's nuts for simplicity vs results

Using tank water, and with a complete collection of water salts I couldn't make sense of John Palmer so just put in a level teaspoon of everything plus two teaspoons of Calcium Carbonate as I'm doing a Yorkshire Bitter. Ended up tasting like water  

I don't know if this product is intended to give the same results you are trying to acheive from your salt additions but I use the 5.2ph stabiliser as a kind of "catch-all" for potential chemistry issues (bit like taking a multi-vitamin) as it's dead simple. Ignore this comment if you are trying to replicate a particular regional water profile of course.


Cubed. Collected a litre along the way for starter of WYeast West Yorkshire. 

I noticed that there appeared to be no mash-out step. I have included this as part of my process due to published wisdom on this forum but might try the next couple without to see if it has any negative impact. Would love to drop this step as standing at the urn with an over-the-side element, plunging the paint stirrer like a tosser for 15 mins is a pain (and looks pretty suss from behind).

Cheers,

Soz


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## Cannibal Smurf

Had a great day BribieG. Thanks for the invite and the great hospitality...and a quick tour of Veronica's Gallery, some really nice work there! We were both impressed.

The drive around the island was a good way to pass the Mash time after a nice lunch, the only way to top it off was with a nice cold HB while the boil was underway. 

Learnt quite a bit and consolidated a lot of what I had read on the forums here. Picked up my pot on the way up and have my bag being made, hopefully to be finished in a few days.

Can't wait for my first brew, thanks again BribieG


----------



## Bribie G

soznewb said:


> I noticed that there appeared to be no mash-out step. I have included this as part of my process due to published wisdom on this forum but might try the next couple without to see if it has any negative impact. Would love to drop this step as standing at the urn with an over-the-side element, plunging the paint stirrer like a tosser for 15 mins is a pain (and looks pretty suss from behind).
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Soz


Yes I've also been following wisdom on the forum and went for 'full volume' mashing, but my electic urn is only 40L and most of the AGers I've spoken to reckon on using at least 40 L of water in the whole process including mash out, to end up with a 'standard' 23 L brew. To accommodate the grain bill I started off with only about 35 L in the urn and was pushing it to get enough wort. As it is I'll be lucky to end up with 20L bottled whereas I'd like to go for 24L.
I reckon I ended up with about a 28L boil but would like to go say 33 to 35. So I've decided next time to mash, drain about 8L into a stockpot which is no hassle as the urn has a tap, and top up urn with 8L of say 75 degree water, raise bag and drop it for a double dunker, raise and drain bag and add the 8L back in.

Thirsty boy had a bit to say on trying to mash out a BIAB, suggesting that if you are going to digress too far from BIAB you really should consider going for a three vessel system. Agree if it involves a lot of syphoning etc, However in my case it's only a case of opening a tap and pulling a couple of extra times on a pulley so I'll give it a go next time and report.



Cannibal Smurf said:


> Had a great day BribieG. Thanks for the invite and the great hospitality...
> 
> Can't wait for my first brew, thanks again BribieG



A pleasure to meet fellow craft brewers, we're a bit thin on the ground around here - all the best for the BIAB and we'll keep in touch re Feb if we are heading down Tugun Way'


Cheers
Michael


----------



## Thirsty Boy

On the contrary actually - 

I think that sparging a BIAB is more or less a waste of time and effort - the step referred to as mashing out however, I think is really quite important.

In BIAB you are not adding water or anything else when you lauter - you are just pulling the bag out - if you dont raise the temperature to wha woudl traditionally be a mash-out/sparge temperature, then you are trying to extract sugars from grain at a temperature that is probably about 10 degrees lower than any other brewing method.

It works, but it will knock a big hole in your efficiency, I would guess from 5 to 10 %

So its a missable step, if you dont mind the lower extraction rates you save yourself a bit of effort.

Same argument in reverse for sparging (dunk sparging if you must please) you will get 5 or so % extra efficiency, but at the cost of more mucking about and equipment etc etc.

Bribie - how hard are you boiling? I start my boils with 29L for a post boil of 23.2 and after losses to trub, ending up with 21 in a cube. The object being to fill a 19L keg. BUT.... I boil for 90 minutes!! If you are only boiling for 60 minutes you should be looking at getting a post boil of around 24L from your 28L starting point.

Its my opinion that if you are boiling off more than 15% of your pre-boil volume, then you are most probably boiling too vigarously and should tone the heat down a little if possible. Although that might not be an option in your urn. 

Mind you, your double dunk method sounds most workable and I cant see any reason not to do it that way if it isn't too much trouble for you.

Congrats on the first brew. I', glad it all went so smoothly for you.

Cheers

Thirsty


----------



## Bribie G

Thanks Thirsty, the urn has a temperature dial which goes up to 110 degrees. It was boiling like buggery on that setting so I turned it down to 100 but was still quite vigorous. I'm not sure what a rolling boil should look like - and that was my first thought about turning it down for the next boil to a sort of rolling simmer as opposed to boil if you get my drift. I'll see if that does the trick before going for double hoists etc.

Edit: for mash out I can just raise the bag half way out of the urn to get the bag off the element, switch element on to heat up the existing wort then lower bag back in and give it a stir - BIAB mashes are quite 'mobile' . That's no problem in itself.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Boils are kind of hard to work out till you see one thats just right... then you know what to aim for. You want more than a simmer, but you don't need the wort to be jumping about the place either.

There needs to be physical agitation and and exchange of liquid from top to bottom - hence the "rolling" boil description you hear so often, and there need to be bubbles. But as long as there are those tow things - some bubbles and physical agitation, then the boil is vigorous enough to do what it needs to do.

More than a simmer - less than a hard boil

Thats why I like the % boil-off figure. If you have the bubbles and the agitation, then if you are also boiling off between 8 and 15% of your starting volume, the boil is hard enough. More than 15%... probably too hard. 

I am fairly certain you should be able to get your 23-24L batch out of that urn without resorting to "extras" - but you're gonna have to fill it up.

You way of raising to mash-out/lauter temperatures is very like PP's recommended method. He shoves his mash paddle in the bag, closes it up with the paddle sticking out the top and pulls it mostly out of the kettle... then raises the temp and drops it back in - the mash paddle in the bag allows him to give it a good jiggle around without having to go to the trouble of re-attaching his bag.

You sound like you have it all fairly well sorted out. If you want to, post up your volumes and gravities etc and we can work out what your efficiency was - or maybe for a future brew.

Welcome to AG - you're hooked now you know, its a downwards spiral of more beer and more gear from here on in.

Cheers

TB


----------



## ikern

Bribie,

I use a 40lt urn as well and on my last brew I started with 34.4 lts. After I pulled the bag (5.3kg of grain and I did raise to 76deg for mashout)and squeezed I was left with 32.2 lts and SG 1040 (my software works this out as 77%, dunno how close this is). After my boil I was left with 27.7 lts @ 1047. This was probably one of my gentler boils as I usually have slightly higher rate but the losses described here are pretty reflective of what I normally get off my system.

Cheers,

Soz


----------



## Stuffa

I did my third BIAB the other day, the first two were spot on as far as anticipated efficiencies go (70%). The last one was way down 60% the only thing I did different was with the crush. I have a Marga Mill and the first two took about half an hour to crush 5kg of grain, so on the last one I tried Tony's trick of adding a little water to soften the grains before the crush. This seemed to work fine as the crush only took a little over 5 Min's, but I think the crush may have been a bit to course. I'll make the gap on the bottom roller a little smaller to see if it helps.

I was thinking of trying a step mash and maybe adding some 5.2 to my tank water (some say it will help others say you don't need it with soft water). I guess if I get back to 70% I would be happy.

One thing I was very happy about with my last brew was I got an immersion chiller, ran my bore water thru it which is very cold and in 20 Min's the wort went from boiling to 20C.

I cracked a bottle of my first BIAB last night (Kabooby's Mocha Porter), bloody beautiful.

Cheers and a Merry Christmas to all,
Chris


----------



## Bribie G

soznewb said:


> Bribie,
> 
> I use a 40lt urn as well and on my last brew I started with 34.4 lts. After I pulled the bag (5.3kg of grain and I did raise to 76deg for mashout)and squeezed I was left with 32.2 lts and SG 1040 (my software works this out as 77%, dunno how close this is). After my boil I was left with 27.7 lts @ 1047. This was probably one of my gentler boils as I usually have slightly higher rate but the losses described here are pretty reflective of what I normally get off my system.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Soz



Sounds we are fellow Astral travellers or something... my first brew started with 34 lts and 5.3kg of grain.. :huh: - The only thing different was that I ended up with only about 22 L after the boil, if that. So I'm maybe boiling too hard. I'll copy your method for next brew, this is exactly what I am aiming for even the noice OG which should give me those Abbott Ale / Brains SA Gold strengths I am looking to develop.

Stuffa: I won't be able to get a Marga till Feb when they come in. However buying 30kg crushed from CraftBrewer and doing my own pickup it doesn't break the bank (fortunately I can do a half hour loop to Underwood on the way to work in Fortitude Valley) and might hold off on the mill thing until I have my system bedded down.

Thanks for tips guys.


----------



## matho

i havn't read this thread for a while but i found something interesting on the net about mash separtion

View attachment 12___Mash_separation_systems.pdf


on page 2 (58) it talks about the Meura 2001, if that's not squeezing the mash i don't know what is.
i think inbev uses it, anyway i just thought it was interesting bit of information for the to squeeze or not to squeeze debate.
Also the IBD has some good info on their website.
cheers
matho


----------



## Bribie G

A-squeezing I will go :lol: 

Actually on brew day two of us had a squeeze. After boiling and using whirlfloc the final wort was crystal clear, discounting the crumbs of hot break of course.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

matho said:


> i havn't read this thread for a while but i found something interesting on the net about mash separtion
> 
> View attachment 23329
> 
> 
> on page 2 (58) it talks about the Meura 2001, if that's not squeezing the mash i don't know what is.
> i think inbev uses it, anyway i just thought it was interesting bit of information for the to squeeze or not to squeeze debate.
> Also the IBD has some good info on their website.
> cheers
> matho



Nice link - I've pointed out the similarities between mash filters and BIAB a few times - especially the bit about squeezing!! But I couldn't post that document... I'm a member of the IBD and don't want to get in trouble for naughty copyright stuff. Glad you posted it though  The IBD site: http://www.ibd.org.uk/ has some great stuff in their learning section. Lots of short sharp targeted documents like the one that matho posted

The other thing to notice about mash filters apart from the squeezing and the lack of tannins - is the fact that for mash filters the grist is crushed to powder in a hammer mill and very high efficiency is the result - so grinding your grain very finely in BIAB is the similarity here - and that the wort from mash filters is usually really turbid as compared to the wort from mash tuns and lauter tuns, so perhaps that makes you feel a little better about the cloudiness of BIAB wort.

Closer to home than inbev - Coopers uses a mash filter at its brewery. So you can taste a beer made this way by going to your nearest bottle'o

TB


----------



## katzke

Thirsty Boy said:


> Nice link - I've pointed out the similarities between mash filters and BIAB a few times - especially the bit about squeezing!! But i cant post that thing... I'm a member of the IBD and don't want to get in trouble for naughty copyright stuff. Glad you posted it though
> 
> The other thing to notice about mash filters apart from the squeezing and the lack of tannins - is the fact that for mash filters the grist is crushed to powder in a hammer mill and very high efficiency is the result - so grinding your grain very finely in BIAB is the similarity here - and that the wort from mash filters is usually really turbid as compared to the wort from mash tuns and lauter tuns, so perhaps that makes you feel a little better about the cloudiness of BIAB wort.
> 
> Closer to home than inbev - Coopers uses a mash filter at its brewery. So you can taste a beer made this way by going to your nearest bottle'o
> 
> TB



I read the article on the mash filter. It got me thinking on the fine crush and efficiency. I have not tried to go as fine as flour for assorted reasons. But the mash filter got me to think of using 2 bags, or a bag in a bag. Not sure how well it would work or any potential problems.

The reason I was thinking about it was Thirstys post about the filter and trying to get the last of the wort out of the kettle. I figure the less grain material pre-boil the lest gunk post boil.

When BIAB hit the USA finding the bag material was a bit hard. Some tried very fine material. The result was a very slow drain and I recall some gave up because it was like a stuck sparge.

By using a traditional BIAB bag and putting that in a bag of extra fine material would it work like a filter? One would pull the first bag and remove most of the grain. What fine particles are left behind would be removed by pulling the second bag.

Anyone done anything like this?

Think it would be worth a try?


----------



## katzke

Need a bit of recipe help. Have been asked for the recipe of the beer I took to the brew club Christmas party.

Do I need to give them the mash temp? If so how do I convert a BIAB mash temp to a conventional mash temp?


----------



## wambesi

Yeah mash temp should be provided as it can make a difference in the final product.

Essentially an AG recipe should be able to be followed with whatever method you choose to brew with, so the temp won't change.
The only thing that might be a little harder are decoction mashes with extra rests.

So mash temp is mash temp no matter what AG method you use....unless I am reading your post wrong.


----------



## katzke

wambesi said:


> Yeah mash temp should be provided as it can make a difference in the final product.
> 
> Essentially an AG recipe should be able to be followed with whatever method you choose to brew with, so the temp won't change.
> The only thing that might be a little harder are decoction mashes with extra rests.
> 
> So mash temp is mash temp no matter what AG method you use....unless I am reading your post wrong.



In BIAB you mash higher to keep from getting too dry of a beer.


----------



## wambesi

katzke said:


> In BIAB you mash higher to keep from getting too dry of a beer.



I never have with any of mine. I have heard of some doing that but never needed to myself.


----------



## katzke

wambesi said:


> I never have with any of mine. I have heard of some doing that but never needed to myself.



I have been searching for where I got the info that I needed to mash at a higher temperature and cannot find it.

Am I confused with the conversions between F and C or did I read it someplace?


----------



## reviled

katzke said:


> I have been searching for where I got the info that I needed to mash at a higher temperature and cannot find it.
> 
> Am I confused with the conversions between F and C or did I read it someplace?



You may have been reading that the dough in temp is supposed to be higher than strike temp, for example, if I want to mash at 66, ill add grain at 68 and hit 66 perfectly... But I dont mash higher either, and dont get dry beer... Depends on how well insulated your kettle is and how much heat you lose during the mash...


----------



## katzke

katzke said:


> I have been searching for where I got the info that I needed to mash at a higher temperature and cannot find it.
> 
> Am I confused with the conversions between F and C or did I read it someplace?



Well I found it. Had to read through about a dozen pages from Thurstys post to a US forum.

He said it was thinner and he was adding 1C to his mash temperatures. Here is the link to the page. http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/vie...3&start=165

Now I can get some work done.


----------



## wambesi

There you go, I thought I had heard something about it too, you know how much to adjust it now.
Thirsty is full of good info so if anyone is going to know it'll be him.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Thats on my system though - Actually in that single thread I have suggest both higher and lower. In the first post I seem to recall saying it might be a good idea to mash perhaps a single degree lower to be nicer to your B amalayse enzymes - then after a few more BIABs under my belt I found that my beer was too dry and I went the other way.

Probably now I would say..... just mash at the temperature you would mash at in any system, and tweak it later on. Katzke - just tell em the temp that you actually used, the variations between peoples systems and thermometers is wide enough so that thats going to be a bigger factor than any conversion of BAIB to non-BIAB would be anyway.

TB

and dont listen to the things I say to closely... I am notoriously unreliable


----------



## wambesi

Thirsty Boy said:


> and dont listen to the things I say to closely... I am notoriously unreliable



Taking your advice then and ignoring that line  

I've always left my temps to whatever the recipes have said and that's worked for me, like you said everyone's equipment is slightly different and what works on mine might not necessarily work on yours...


----------



## Clarity

Hi, I am really new here, I have just gotten back into brewing and lost much of my skill and talent from 15 years ago... Since returning to brewing I have been pretty much sticking to K&K, with slight modifications. 

I was originaly going to move to extract brewing next, but after reading this thread and the guide I think I might move straight to BIAB and skip extract brewing. AG has always been my plan for the long term but it will take too much money and effort to set up a "proper" brewery. BIAB is the best plan for me right now.

now to shop...

oooooo shopping

I love shopping. :icon_chickcheers:


----------



## Bribie G

Welcome back, you'll notice a lot of things have happened in the last fifteen years !!
If you have about three hundred dollars or can buy better on EBay why not join the Electric Urn revolution B) and cut out the big brew pots, gas bottles, NASA burners etc. 

Then later if you decide to go to three vessel brewing you'll still have an excellent hot liquor / sparge liquor tun.


----------



## wambesi

Hi CC, As you have (or will) read BIAB really is a simple, effective and inexpensive way to brew all grain.
Download the guides and check out Thirsty's guide as well which was written up on a US brewing forum.

For your first time I highly recommend sticking to the proven guides and then branch out from there, the material quoted (swiss voile) is one of the better materials for the job, and I would say almost all of the BIABers use - although there are some who use other types.

Stick to these and ask any questions you come up with here, it's most likely been asked before and I wouldn't expect you to sit down read and memorise 1000+ posts in this thread! So ask away and we'll all help out as much as possible.

Once you have some brews up, there is also the BIAB brewers register located here where you can add your details.

Happy brewing! :chug: and drinking!


----------



## Mantis

My wife went to spotlight to get some Swiss Voile and returned with a cotton fabric. They said at the store that they had never heard of Swiss Voile in nylon/polyester. 

I went to spotlight and found what I think is the right stuff and the same as my smaller partial mash bag. It is 100% polyester and was labelled veoro voile or something like that. 

I am sure that the same stuff would have been labelled swiss voile when I got the material for the partial mash bag, because if it was labelled something else I wouldnt have got it. 

Anyway, the missus will make up my big bag this weekend and grain is on the way next week. So next weekend looks like the go for my first BIAB AG. It will be no chill as well


----------



## wambesi

From my experience with spotlights both in Vic and NSW their staff don't seem to have much idea - well some of them anyway.
Now I tend to look myself, and if I need to ask someone I find the oldest "mum" looking lady around!

Avoid the younger reps who don't have much of an idea and it's "just a job"

Sounds like what you found in the end should be the trick, let us know how you go.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Mantis said:


> My wife went to spotlight to get some Swiss Voile and returned with a cotton fabric. They said at the store that they had never heard of Swiss Voile in nylon/polyester.
> 
> I went to spotlight and found what I think is the right stuff and the same as my smaller partial mash bag. It is 100% polyester and was labelled veoro voile or something like that.
> 
> I am sure that the same stuff would have been labelled swiss voile when I got the material for the partial mash bag, because if it was labelled something else I wouldnt have got it.
> 
> Anyway, the missus will make up my big bag this weekend and grain is on the way next week. So next weekend looks like the go for my first BIAB AG. It will be no chill as well







From Afromaiko's visit to Spotlight I beleive...


----------



## Mantis

Thirsty Boy said:


> View attachment 24183
> View attachment 24182
> 
> 
> From Afromaiko's visit to Spotlight I beleive...



Thanks TB and I reckon thats exactly what it was labeled when I got the stuff for my small bag. 
Anyhooo, the missus has sown up the bag to fit my 50lt pot, so now to wait for the grain to arrive.


----------



## troopa

Bribie or someone else, could you please post a pic or link to the Urn that you use

just curious as i figure its gonna cost me about $300 for a bigger pot and burner as it is 

so may as well open up some more options before gouing in to deep 

Thanks tom


----------



## dr K

Ahhh..Troopa, therein lies the heart of BIAB/Full Volume Brewing.
You skip the mash tun, you save money, you save space and you save time.
Boring old fart brewers who stick to their unhealthy mash tun philosophy are presented with the following scenario.
54 litre (3 kegs)Batch Option (divide as required for your set-up).
12kg grain which has a volume of 18 odd litres is doughed in with 30 litres of mash liquor in a 55 litre cooler box, the grain absorbs quite some of the water but it also swells to about 36 litres, the nett result during the mash is about 52 litres and after final draining about 45 litres, pushing the limits...yes but it fits with 3 litres to spare!
Boring old fart time wasting sparging to get about 70 litres in the kettle, which is about what you need for 54 litres. So big a kettle is required...mmmm if you were willing to watch like a hawk then you could maybe get away with 80 litres (rememebering that as the wort evaporates your volume decreases) but 90 litres would be a safe bet and anything larger a no-brainer or no watcher.
Our Modern BIAB Man makes life easy, he adds all volume first which indicates an L:G ratio of 7:1 rather than the 2.5:1 used by our hypothetical old fart. 
So thats, lets see, 84 litres of mash liquor and 36 litres of swollen grain (120 litres) less the water absorption of the grain we come in at 106 litres brimming.
This is fantastic...our 110 litre plus brew kettle easily accomadates all the grain (well just but no different to the old farts expensive esky set up which is borderline as well) and we not have boil over, my tummy gets so excited about these things.
We just need a bigger boiler.

K


----------



## mikelinz

Thirsty Boy said:


> View attachment 24183
> View attachment 24182
> 
> 
> From Afromaiko's visit to Spotlight I beleive...



The problem is that true voile is very fine cotton(cotton blend) fabric.. So if you ask for voile that is what you will get offered. The wife had some and we tried it and it didn't work, the fabric tore when trying to get it out. and yes swiss voile it seems is cotton too, judgeing by the 100% cotton references on the google search i did. . Some clever marketing person was obviously trying to flog a nice fine completly man made fabric that looked a bit like the real thing so called it swiss voile too is my guess. 

I have used three different types of white poly net curtian frabric, i just choose the really fine weave stuff and all three have been fine. And every piece has come out of the remnant bin for about $2 so i get a BIAB bag and hop bags out of each piece. Changed mash tuns, stuck one to the bottom the mash tun and made one to replace the melted one.

rgds mike


----------



## Bribie G

Troopa said:


> Bribie or someone else, could you please post a pic or link to the Urn that you use
> 
> just curious as i figure its gonna cost me about $300 for a bigger pot and burner as it is
> 
> so may as well open up some more options before gouing in to deep
> 
> Thanks tom



40L urn makes up either a 23 L batch to be cubed, or a 25 L batch (I bottle 24 litres so need a couple of litres extra) no problems. Currently at work so don't have access to the piccies, will post in the morning.
Cheers.


----------



## troopa

Bribie finally got round to doing a search and found a couple of options 

1 is the high powered 3000w birko 
2 a cheaper 2400w crown urn or similar

what im curious about is the birko with the larger element worth it and will the open element in the birko going to effect the Swisse Voile and cleaning?
or are we better off using an enclosed element like in the crown?

BTW can you tell me how long it takes to get the 25 litres to the boil?

Dr.K LOL thanks for your post that was good and i do agree with everything you said 
i had already intended to going the BIAB route and have the swisse voile in hand and ready to be sewn up when SWMBO gets around to it :|
the only decision i have to make is weather a 40litre Elect urn is going to be a better option for me then going an 80litre stock pot and gas and being able to do double batches

thanks tom


----------



## crundle

I have been wondering about the benefits the Crown urn might have over the Birko, namely the concealed element, and was wondering if it is necessary to have a cake stand or similar in the bottom of the Crown urn while the element is on. I am assuming that being concealed, it uses some type of fluid in the bottom of the urn around the element, which would avoid the creation of hot spots in the urn.

If that is the case, would the Crown urn be a better choice for doing step mashes, and does anyone do step mashes in their urn setups?

I am waiting on some back pay from work then splashing out on a 40 litre urn, so I have been following this thread and others on urns with great interest. I am only interested in doing batches for single kegging, so 40 litres will be ample for me.

Crundle


----------



## Bribie G

Actually I found 2 options for the Birko 40L

2400w plugs into your existing socket. Tad over $300 from catering suppliers and Aus owned and made. 
3400w that requires an electrician to fit a 15 amp circuit and socket.

The 2400 handles it great. At no point are you actually heating 23 L to a boil: as follows:

You start off with about 34 L and bring to strike temp, about 69 degrees for a 66 mash. takes about 25 mins. 

What I do is 


switch the urn off, lower bag and secure around lip of urn with pegs. Pour and mix grain (thin stream to avoid doughballs)
Temp check then wrap urn in feather doonah and walk away for an hour. Drops to about 65 over the hour.
Raise bag and as it's draining, switch power back on again to boil, as the wort is at 65 it only takes about another 25 mins to crack a boil.
Swing squeezed bag out of way. I usually end up with about 28 ish litres and boil down to 23 for cubing. I suspend hopsock on same skyhook as the bag.





So the element never gets turned on in contact with the bag. 
Flattop in Melb. got a Crown flat bottom on Ebay and paid a bit over $200 - you might want to PM him and see how he got on with that. I read a post yonks ago that they take longer to heat than the Birko but he should be able to give you the stats on that.

Cheers
Michael


----------



## Mantis

Well I have received and installed the ball valve , pickup tube etc to my 50lt pot. So ready to do my first AG this Saturday. Can someone tell me if I am on the money with these water calcs for a BIAB to end up with 21.5lt for my small cube.

21.5 to cube. 23 post boil.
Loss to boil 15% so 27L
0.7L/kg absorption for 5.5kg so 30.85L
Round up to 38L

And looking for an SG of around 1050

cheers and thanks


----------



## Hashie

I'm guessing you mean "round up to _31 litres_"

Other wise your calcs look good, I work to 0.5L/kg absorption. But even at o.7L/kg you'll be in the ball park.

Good luck with it and remember to have fun


----------



## Bribie G

Houston to Apollo, calculations look good, pitch is good, gimballs are good, go for insertion into moon orbit.

:beerbang: 

I'll check that loss to absorbtion by the grain, I keep forgetting to bring the bathroom scales into the brewhaus, will do that next time.


----------



## Mantis

hehe, yes I did mean round up to 31lt. Must have been staring at my avatar  

Thanks guys.
Bribie, do you mean weigh the spent grain bag to calc the water absorbed.


----------



## Katherine

Good Luck... and don't forget to update on Biab wiki!


----------



## Mantis

Thanks Katie, will do :beer:


----------



## Bribie G

Mantis said:


> ......................
> Bribie, do you mean weigh the spent grain bag to calc the water absorbed.


Yes, I have been having some variations in the amount of sweet wort I'm getting in the kettle prior to boiling and intend to weigh spent grain to see how much liquor it is carrying away. I realise that each kilo of malt grain is going to yield a lower weight of dry husk because much of it is, naturally, sacharrified and ends up in the wort. So as an experiment I'll actually dry it in a hot concrete area of the yard, should take less than a day then weigh it. Commercial breweries take this very seriously and now have huge membrane press thingos that literally squeeze every drop out of the mash, and I reckon it's worth getting a handle on what is happening with my own grain "bed". 

It will also be interesting to see what the diff is between, say, 5k of Maris Otter and the resulting spent dry husks.


----------



## PistolPatch

My goodness, I haven't done a post on AHB for at least 3 months - better make it a long one!

*When You Are Starting Out, Do the Following...*

Most of the following applies to any new AG brewer though I have flavoured it somewhat to suit the last few posts and BIAB generally. 

*Use Less Liquor (Water) on Your First Five Brews*

The above applies to traditional brewers as well. Mantis, 37lts is actually a more realistic figure than 31lts for a 23lt batch of 5% ABV beer. BUT, you are better off starting with 3ilts on your first few brews. Whilst you are unlikely to end up with 23lts in your fermenter (unless you include a heap of trub) the gravity will be higher and so you can just top up your fermenter with tap water to the correct Original Gravity. OG is what is important...

*Ignore Efficiency Figures and Focus on Original Gravity.*

Basically a lot of bullshit is written on nearly all brewing figures. There are countless threads on AHB that show how even our major brewing software does not even correctly describe something that should be as basic as brewhouse efficiency. What hope does a new AG brewer have?

What I describe as brewhouse efficiency and what another brewer may describe as efficiency and what a brewing program may describe as efficiency can vary by more than 40% on exactly the same brew!!! Most people quoting an efficiency figure don't even know this problem exists!

An experienced brewer has gone through this terrible confusion but by this stage knows their equipment and the produce. An experienced brewer, when copying a recipe, will ignore any quoted efficiency figure and will focus on the Original Gravity that will have been quoted in the recipe.

(Tip: For those struggling with the computer programs etc and efficiency when copying recipes, set your batch size for 27lts and your brewhouse efficiency for 75%. This will get you in the ballpark for a 23lt batch. For some stupid reason that no brewer understands, Beersmith etc brewhouse efficiency figures do not adjust for losses to trub and chiller. My goodness!)

Following the, "Use Less Liquor," tip above will help you get to know your equipment sooner. Adding water to a brew at any stage is easier than subtracting it!

*Get Accurate Measuring Equipment*

The same people that quote you what they think are accurate efficiency figures (I used to do it too) are the same people that probably have one hydrometer and one thermometer.

I have had over 15 thermometers and hydrometers. I have seen variances between these of over 4 degrees at mash temp and 7 points in FINAL gravity (same wort)!!! So, don't trust your measurement equipment unless you have tested it against an accurate source. Most accurate hydrometers I have seen (i.e. they read the same) are the French ones. The only accurate basic thermometers I have had are the stainless steel, "curved," red alcohol thermometers. And I now have found an accurate digital thermometer!

If you have an efficiency problem and are following the basic brewing guidelines, whether you brew BIAB or traditional, the problem will most likely be a dodgy thermometer. Make sure you have good measuring equipment.

*Stop Measuring and Start Tasting!*

Hopefully now you have started to stop thinking about efficiency etc!

The first thing that a new AG brewer should be focussed on is taste. Do you like the beer? Is the recipe good?

If you have a good recipe then you are on a winner.

If you taste your beer and don't like it, don't blame that on efficiency. If you have a crap beer at 65% efficiency, it will still be crap at 85%! (A 5%ABV ale recipe brewed at 3% with a few tweaks can be outstanding.)

*How Should I Help Other New Brewers?*

a) Make Sure You Have an Accurate Hydrometer and Thermometer - When you are confident in your hydrometer and thermometer then you should buy a second one. If necessary, calibrate these to the originals. Put your originals in storage so as when the secondaries fail, you have something accurate to calibrate against. Until you have done this, you can't even hope to hand on helpful figures to a third party.

B) Stop Quoting Figures Without Qualification - Once you have the above, then go and buy, "Brewing Classic Styles," by Jamil Zainasheff and John Palmer. On page 40-41, you will see that they have qualified, somewhat, what they mean by the efficiencies quoted in their recipes. Everyone should do that.

c) Hand on the Knowledge of Why Figures Should Not Be A God - When someone gets worried about figures, get them back to the basics. Question their measuring equipment. If they claim an efficiency, what do they mean? (I have two brew rigs and nearly always brew side by side at the same time. I find it impossible to get two similar readings during the brew as others who have brewed at my home will testify. For this reason I concentrate on what goes into the fermenter. Even then, the results can be a little surprising. How is your source measuring their efficiency?)

d) Be Aware that It is Easy to Get the Results We Want - Take enough measurements and one will always agree with what you want. Try measuring your efficiency from pre-boil to into fermenter. Get a friend to help you. You'll be surprised!

f) Question the Basics - Don't believe everything you read. If someones says their efficiency went up by 5% by doing such and such, ask them if they repeated the exercise 5 times with each method. Measuring differences in efficiency at the home brew level on one brew is ridiculous. Even on 5 brews it is untrustworthy. It is also a pointless exercise. If you want to increase efficiency at any level by 5%, you are obviously not focussed on brewing a truly brilliant beer.

Three other questions that you can ask the brewer who claims ultra-high efficiencies are, "Did you measure pre or post-boil?" "Did you no-chill?" (In no-chill, all the break goes into the primary vessel.) "Did you immersion chill or counter-flow?" (Once again, with the latter, all the break goes into the fermenter.) There are a lot more questions than these three.

Anyway, I hope the above helps new brewers stop worrying about figures and start to concentrate on beers (recipes) they love.

I have six beers on tap at home. I like all the beers but I am only one third of the way to having six beers I REALLY love on tap. I'd actually be really surprised if I got there in the next five or ten years. All I know for now is that worrying about figures will not be the thing that finds me that next beer I REALLY love.

Spot ya,
Pat


----------



## flattop

Bribie is right, I got a crown urn last year, but due to an invasion of relatives and then an infected fermenter, a change of job and hot weather, (and my mate who was going to sew my bag up hasn't done it yet due to the fires) i haven't done my first BIAB (and i'm spitting chips about it). In fact i threw a brew on today (k&k) that is only my 2nd brew for the year. Those who know me know that's unusual....

However, i did use the urn to sterilize some glass bottles so the missus could make plum jam. I didn't time the boil but i don't remember it being terribly slow, i was quite impressed with the urn in general, although i did break a glass bottle in it and spend hours looking for the splinters.

The crown cost me about $220 delivered from evilbay.

Pistol, i agree with the sentiments you post, efficiency is probably great if you think in scales of economics, for me the important thing is how it tastes....
I don't care about if i got the stats right as long as it's good beer. However i am yet to make a really great beer!


----------



## Mantis

You are right PP, with the 31L start I barely ended up with 19L in the fermenter and that was at the expected OG

I did my second one today, a weizen with 5.8kg of grain and started with 35L. Looking like about 25L in the cube which is what I wanted. 

Funny how this one only dropped 10L and the first one with less grain dropped 12L. Maybe the wheat malt does soak up as much as barley. Or maybe I boiled the first one to rapidly. 

Will be interesting to see what the OG of this one is tommorow


----------



## boingk

*Summary of posts 351 - 400 in this thread:*

Maxt retires from BIAB, citing poor attenuation as a reason for going the whole hog. 

Dr K recommends some stuff, namely Trevira CS as the bag material after not noting that we've already found Voille to be more than adequate. He also recommends a liquor-grist ratio of 3:1, and is shot down in flames.

Thirsty Boy explodes, the detonation visible from space. This is closely followed by a large, muffled 'Whump!' sound.

Insulation is deemed unnessecary by PP, he recommends just turning the burner/element on for a few minutes instead. For those of us with gas burners, insulation is noted as a fire hazard.

Full volume mashing is unanimous [sic]. PP strongly advocates agitating the bag every five minutes or so to help achieve reasonable efficiency.

Spills Most of It tests cardboard insulation with his element setup. It works very well. He also invents and trademarks 'DunkSparge'; the process of dunking the bag of spent grain into a bucket of hot water repeatedly to sparge it. This is aided by squeezing the bag inbetween dunks.

Poor attenuation blamed on traditional yeast choices, with Nottingham being a prime culprit. US-56 advocated by King of Spain.

Post summary introduced by PP as thread is fast becoming unweildy.

Cheers - boingk


----------



## Mantis

I got truely woefull effeciency on the wheat beer yesterday. Today I pitched the yeast and took an OG and got 1043 and for only 21.5L in the fermenter. 
Was expecting 25L at 1050
Mucking with Beersmith gives me 50% effeciency.

And just to top this off, I pithed US-05 yeast instead of the dry wheat yeast I just got last week  

I should have had a coffee first to wake up 

EDIT: On reflection, this is the first mash that I havent stirred often. I just dumped the grain in stirred to wet it all and left it for an hour. 
All the other BIAB partials I have stirred a lot and got the efficiencies I wanted.
Just a clumbsy attempt really :angry:


----------



## Katherine

Under PP's instruction and own incentive we have always hit original gravity and at least 20litres into the fermenter. From memory our first double batch was pretty close also. Our beer is pretty good not fantastic but good (its all gone)... We start brewing in March. Good to see you on the AHB again PP.......


----------



## Thirsty Boy

He talks a lot - but he comes out with some lovely things occasionally

PP wrote


> All I know for now is that worrying about figures will not be the thing that finds me that next beer I REALLY love



And sager words are seldom written.

If you are getting less than 70% measured at pre-boil - then there may well be a little something wrong with your process - above that, its all gravy. You are doing everything right, its just whether you can be bothered to tweak for better efficiency. I'm with Pat.... tweak for better beer instead.

Pat - when you have all six taps pouring beer you love, let me know cause I am booking a ticket to the west and will be over for drinkies.

When I have six beers I love on tap - the devil will iceskate through the gates of hell and surrender to Barack Obama

TB


----------



## reviled

Can anyone remind me how much volume a kg of grain takes up? Is it a litre or more??

Im doing a Belgian rye this weekend and ive realised im really pushing the limitations of my pot, im going to try a 3:1 mash ratio.. I know my efficiency will suck but if I can make beer ill be happy... Im using about 7kgs of grain, will that take up about 7 litres of kettle space or more?? 

Cheers


----------



## Hashie

I've never measured the volume grain takes in the kettle (Must do it next brew). It absorbs ~1/2 litre, so if you worked on 1/2 - 1 litre, I think you'd be in the ball park.


----------



## reviled

Sweet cheers mate..

Im really going to be pushing my limitations this weekend for sure  30 litre pot, 21.3 litres of water and 7.1kgs of grain :unsure: 55% efficiency here I come :lol:


----------



## Bizier

I am still yet to do my first BIAB, and you can look at my hypotheses accordingly.

I am still stuck on the traditional grist/water ratio thing, and I wanted to know if anyone has done similar to the following:

1. Mash at close to traditional grist ratio until conversion complete
2. Add cold water (maybe with direct heat applied simultaneously) to reach half volume, measure.
3. Add remaining water and raise to mash-out temp, measure
4. Adjust preboil if necessary

Any thoughts?
Is there directly negative consequences to cooling the mash e.g. activating unwanted enzymes?


----------



## reviled

IMO a ratio of about 4:1 is best for BIAB, and I wouldnt go adding cold water to the mash, that wont be cool cos youll drop the temp of your mash activating different enzymes, but then youre going to have to heat the mash even more if youre wanting to get to mash out temp.. 

Is there a reason you want to use less water? Whats your pot size??

Im using a 3:1 ratio this weekend, but only cos of equipment limitations, and I know that my efficiency will suffer greatly from it, but hey thats life..


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

Bizier said:


> Any thoughts?



Yep.

Why bother? It sounds like a lot of extra rigmarole to me for questionable gains.

I think that the simplicity of the process is wonderful. If you want to pfaff about with the process, do so, but do yourself the *justice* of doing it The One True Way once or twice so you know what you're playing with and can move on from there.

With regard to the liquor:grist thing, BIAB breaks a whole bunch of Home-brewing Science. Do not fear the voile. Embrace the baggie.


----------



## reviled

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> Do not fear the voile. Embrace the baggie.



ROFL, quote of the day :lol:


----------



## katzke

Do not fear the voile. Embrace the baggie.

Great one except for the home brewing science part. I like science and believe that BIAB does break the rules but not the science. Much easier to believe the science is right and the rules are wrong. Besides any home brew rule BIAB proves wrong will not be the first one shown to be wrong.


----------



## Bizier

I think I constantly set myself up for over complicating things. Once I get a place and settle, I think I am going to have the most complex system available just to satisfy my curiosity, a system so overly complex that I cannot over think it. Probably will either be infected because of amount of components, or taste like mega swill anyway.

But for now I will breathe deeply and contemplate your zen wisdom oh master SMOI. That makes me want to sing the Monkey theme: "born from an egg on the mountain top.."

Maybe we could get Edward de Bono to write a book about "The Mesh Bag Method" I am sure he'd be totally down with that.

I will embrace existing BIAB technique and then phaff as I please thereafter.


----------



## Bribie G

Not being a three vessel brewer I don't know much about what a 'normal' mash consistency should look like in terms of grist to liquor but I do remember reading in The Art of Brewing 1861 that Continental Lager brewing was described by the author as 'thick mash' brewing, which suggests that UK mashes of the time had more liquor than the continental variety. This would make sense if they were doing parti-gyle brewing. In Australia where home brewing developed in a predominantly lager culture maybe the 'thick mash' thingo came to be regarded as the norm.

It would be interesting to see what some of the UK three vessel AGers think about mash consistency as they come from a predominantly ale tradition.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

katzke said:


> ... except for the home brewing science part. I like science and believe that BIAB does break the rules but not the science. Much easier to believe the science is right and the rules are wrong. Besides any home brew rule BIAB proves wrong will not be the first one shown to be wrong.



I agree entirely. We simply use different terminology - it's probably a hemispherical thing.


----------



## boingk

Mantis said:


> I got truely woefull effeciency on the wheat beer yesterday. Today I pitched the yeast and took an OG and got 1043 and for only 21.5L in the fermenter.
> Was expecting 25L at 1050
> Mucking with Beersmith gives me 50% effeciency.


Welcome to my domain, first 2 brews have been in the 50's...will see if the acidity imparted by crystal, choc and patent grain for my stout will help my efficiency any. Interesting stuff, also read through Palmers and got an acidity/hardness table thingo which looks good.



katzke said:


> Great one except for the home brewing science part. I like science and believe that BIAB does break the rules but not the science. Much easier to believe the science is right and the rules are wrong. Besides any home brew rule BIAB proves wrong will not be the first one shown to be wrong.


Somone here has a tagline which sums it up beautifully. Goes something like 'Rules are for the guidance of wise men, and the adherence of fools'. Love it.

- boingk


----------



## eamonnfoley

Hi, I've been having a crack at BIAB. My first BIAB brew was not infected, but noticably harsh tasting with little hop/malt flavour and severe bitterness. I havent found any holes in my brewing technique yet (discussed in other threads), but im concerned about my water. My tap water yesterday had a PH of 7.7. And it also seems to have a bit of chlorine (Maylands WA).

Could this have a significant effect on brewing a APA ? I'm planning on using some acidulated malt in the next BIAB I do, maybe 2-3%. Might try and boil off the chlorine before I start also.

Mind you, I had a slighlty different rough flavour (again not infected) with a extract brew I did as part of the troubleshooting exercise. I'm now thinking maybe this is a chlorine thing, as I believe PH doesnt affect extract brews noticeably. Any ideas?

Cheers, Foles.


----------



## Bribie G

Foles - At the risk of sending your power bill through the roof, bringing your strike water to boiling should drive off the chlorine, then let it cool back down to your 68 degrees whatever. If you think it could be a pH thing, the sponsors sell a PH stabilizer for the mash water that stabilises it to 5.2.

I've just ordered a six dollar pack of it as a trial.

I can't see that BIAB as such would affect the bitterness unless you have been heavily into grains with tannins, such as using lots of crystal malt and doing some sort of mash out at a high temperature, e.g. kettles of boiling water.

With an American using lots of crystals maybe you could try adding to the mash towards the end as they only need steeping, not the full mash.

Do you no chill as well? There's a lot of discussion on the NC threads about unwanted bittering that could eventuate with high hop beers like Americans.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

I stopped worrying about pH since I bought a tub of this: Five Star 5.2 Stabiliser which conforms to my previously stated position of adopted/enforced simplicity.

Chlorine is a different matter. I used to filter my water through a carbon filter on its way to the mash tun, now I just use rainwater. You could test the chlorine theory by purchasing some water from the supermarket or the local servo (tip: look for big containers, you will need too many 600ml bottles to fit in a bike pannier...) or Brita filtering your mash water.

Sound the Egg Sucking Lesson Alert:

Is it possible that you are introducing the flavour via your cleaning regime or something like that?


----------



## eamonnfoley

BribieG said:


> Foles - At the risk of sending your power bill through the roof, bringing your strike water to boiling should drive off the chlorine, then let it cool back down to your 68 degrees whatever. If you think it could be a pH thing, the sponsors sell a PH stabilizer for the mash water that stabilises it to 5.2.
> 
> I've just ordered a six dollar pack of it as a trial.
> 
> I can't see that BIAB as such would affect the bitterness unless you have been heavily into grains with tannins, such as using lots of crystal malt and doing some sort of mash out at a high temperature, e.g. kettles of boiling water.
> 
> With an American using lots of crystals maybe you could try adding to the mash towards the end as they only need steeping, not the full mash.
> 
> Do you no chill as well? There's a lot of discussion on the NC threads about unwanted bittering that could eventuate with high hop beers like Americans.



Thanks for the tips. I guess in planning for my next attempt - I'd like to think (hoping) that PH &/or chlorine can actually lead to the non-infection problems I am describing! There is a medicinal twang in my beers also.


----------



## eamonnfoley

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> I stopped worrying about pH since I bought a tub of this: Five Star 5.2 Stabiliser which conforms to my previously stated position of adopted/enforced simplicity.
> 
> Chlorine is a different matter. I used to filter my water through a carbon filter on its way to the mash tun, now I just use rainwater. You could test the chlorine theory by purchasing some water from the supermarket or the local servo (tip: look for big containers, you will need too many 600ml bottles to fit in a bike pannier...) or Brita filtering your mash water.
> 
> Sound the Egg Sucking Lesson Alert:
> 
> Is it possible that you are introducing the flavour via your cleaning regime or something like that?



That 5.2 stuff looks good indeed. Will have to order some. The cleaning regime hopefully isnt a problem. I thoroughly rinse off my sterilising solution (Chlorinated Tri-sodium Phosphate, http://www.homebru.com.au/index.php?main_p...products_id=617), then use Iodophor to sanitise. I also use boiling water in my fermenters beforehand. Maybe I should try a different cleaning product?

I dont no chill either. But have problems getting the wort down to pitching temp after using my plate chiller (gets to about 40C or so in one take). Takes a hour or two in ice water after the chilling, especially in hot weather.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

Does any of this shed any light?

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html


----------



## eamonnfoley

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> Does any of this shed any light?
> 
> http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html



only thing that comes close is medicinal. My 3 approaches for next brew:

1) careful with cleaning product - rinse with boiling water.
2) correct ph
3) try to boil off chlorine before brewing. May even take the time to filter all my brewing water with my brita jug.  

thanks!


----------



## Pollux

Right, well that was an entertaining afternoon, I read this ENTIRE thread, plus many of the threads linked from it......

I feel I am now prepared to go with my first BIAB within 2 weeks, just a matter of waiting for finances to order my urn and then my ingredients...

On that topic, any comments on this list?



> Amarillo 100gr*2
> Cascade 100gr*1
> Galaxy 100gr*1
> Williamette 100gr*1
> Nelson Sauvin 100gr*1
> 
> 
> JW Ale Malt 18kg
> JW Wheat Malt 12kg
> JW Crystal Malt Pale 3kg
> 
> Safbrew T-58*2
> Safale US-05*3



I have learnt from my extract brewing that I like beer with 1/4 Wheat and a combo of Cascade and Amarillo, I also plan on knocking out some Belgians hence the T-58......

To me it seems a reasonable collection of ingredients for getting myself started, I plan do brewing 20L batches with 4kg of base malt.


----------



## boingk

Pollux - I'd throw some chocolate and munich malts in there, but that really depends on what you want to brew and like to drink. Otherwise I think its a good selection. Also, I'd budget using perhaps a bit more than 4kg base malt as your efficiency may not be that great first time around ( as I know all too well <_< ). 

See how things go, anyway - and remember to check your kettle efficiency before you start the hopping regime. I didn't do this, and assumed a 70% efficiency. Got 50%. Over-hopped beer, but thats not a worry as it seems to be alright judging from the gravity samples I've liberated, haha.

Good luck! - boingk

PS: Why not just start a bit of a yeast bank for a few different popular yeasts? I find small jars or those petri dish-like caviar containers with lids to be excellent at containing a bit of slurry in the fridge. Rinsing this to culture, and rinsing again, will let you make a larger master culture which you can let settle and then drain the liquid off. Transfer slurry to small container with minimal headspace and store in fridge. Make starters with a small amount from this master slurry and you're set!


----------



## Pollux

I actually have some yeast from previous batches stored in the fridge in stubbies right now, but I like the idea of having some extra on hand if needed (i.e. slow starter or worse yet a dud one).

Interesting points, I might toss in some choc and/or munich just for some variety, although I want to up hold the rule of K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple stupid).

In terms of efficiency, that means either planning for a 90 min boil to give me time to chill a sample to test before hopping, or maybe getting a refract...mmmm, another toy


----------



## Damian44

Mantis said:


> I got truely woefull effeciency on the wheat beer yesterday. Today I pitched the yeast and took an OG and got 1043 and for only 21.5L in the fermenter.
> Was expecting 25L at 1050
> Mucking with Beersmith gives me 50% effeciency.
> 
> And just to top this off, I pithed US-05 yeast instead of the dry wheat yeast I just got last week
> 
> I should have had a coffee first to wake up
> 
> EDIT: On reflection, this is the first mash that I havent stirred often. I just dumped the grain in stirred to wet it all and left it for an hour.
> All the other BIAB partials I have stirred a lot and got the efficiencies I wanted.
> Just a clumbsy attempt really :angry:





A dodgy thermometer will give you bad efficency. As i found out. You need a back up thermometer thats reliable. 

http://appslabs.com.au/index.php?main_page...amp;cPath=400_6

These have a calibration check feature. I ordered the Dip thermometer so i could check the temp at the bottom of pot, but they sent me the wrong one (cheaper) and i kept it.


----------



## Mantis

Damian44 said:


> A dodgy thermometer will give you bad efficency. As i found out. You need a back up thermometer thats reliable.
> 
> http://appslabs.com.au/index.php?main_page...amp;cPath=400_6
> 
> These have a calibration check feature. I ordered the Dip thermometer so i could check the temp at the bottom of pot, but they sent me the wrong one (cheaper) and i kept it.



I think you may be spot on here Damian. 

Today I took the wifes coffee frother, and my meat thermometers out to the shed. 

Got the water up to 65 with my brewing/normal thermometer then dipped the other two in. They both read lower so I kept the heat on and in the end, the normal one read 70 and the other two 67. 

So my previous mashes would have been at 63C

Will be interesting to see how much difference this makes

I owe you a beer. 
:beer:


----------



## Mantis

Well, it made no difference. Got the mash temps right and also did a mashout by raising the temp to 70 while stirring for 10min. 
I am now thinking that is the fault of my milling. My first AG hit the correct OG for 75% efficiency and was done with premilled grain from one of the sponsors.


----------



## Pollux

LOL, my wife has just offered to knit me a giant tea cosy for my Urn to help hold mash temps.....

I plan on fitting a yoga mat as insulation around the outside of the urn, but this would provide an extra layer, and hell, it is getting her hobby to merge with mine....

I wonder if it would actually work, she will be knitting in pure wool, opinions?


----------



## Bribie G

Pollux said:


> LOL, my wife has just offered to knit me a giant tea cosy for my Urn to help hold mash temps.....
> 
> I plan on fitting a yoga mat as insulation around the outside of the urn, but this would provide an extra layer, and hell, it is getting her hobby to merge with mine....
> 
> I wonder if it would actually work, she will be knitting in pure wool, opinions?







2 degrees drop over an hour, usually.

Maybe she should knit you some leg warmers for that Sydney Winter weather


----------



## Fantoman

Well, I will finally be making the move from Extract + Spec grain to full AG BIAB. 

Like BribieG I have gone the urn option (ordered from Craftbrewer last night). Also ordered the grain to do Dr Smurto's Golden Ale as my cherry popper :icon_drool2: (already have a pack of Amarillo in the freezer)...

I am hoping that the urn will arrive by Friday so I can put the brew down this weekend... just have to go to spotlight to get some Voile - will probably start with the peg to the side of the pot option as the wife doesn't have a sowing machine (will eventually borrow her sisters machine when we have a chance).

It seems like a simple enough process but I guess I will find out first hand soon enough...

Will report back once it is done to let you all know how it all went! :beer:


----------



## Pollux

My urn and ingredients are ordered...

Both Ross @ craftbrewer and Pat @ absolute HB are certain I will have my supplies by the weekend....

Bag is sewn.

All I need is to go pick up my NC jerries, and some other bits and pieces and I am set....


----------



## Pollux

BribieG said:


> Maybe she should knit you some leg warmers for that Sydney Winter weather



She has already knitted me a hat for my recently shaved head....

It's so funny to look at photos of me from 2 weeks ago compared to now...


----------



## Fantoman

So Pollux, it looks like it is you and me FTW this weekend!


----------



## Pollux

Best of luck my friend, may your brew day go froth with no drama and complete success..


----------



## Fantoman

Pollux said:


> Best of luck my friend, may your brew day go froth with no drama and complete success..



And likewise to you Pollux! :beerbang:


----------



## Pollux

LOL, I just re-read that post....

may your brew day go FROTH??? I should stop posting after a few beers..

Freudian slip if there ever was one...


----------



## reviled

Congrats to the both of you for taking the plunge, best of luck with your brew days :icon_cheers:


----------



## Pollux

My Urn just arrived...

Seriously I paid for it over the phone at 1pm yesterday, and at 9:05 this morning the courier arrived....

Is super shiny, now to work out how to pull the tap apart for cleaning, either that or replace it with a ball valve....


----------



## eamonnfoley

foles said:


> Hi, I've been having a crack at BIAB. My first BIAB brew was not infected, but noticably harsh tasting with little hop/malt flavour and severe bitterness. I havent found any holes in my brewing technique yet (discussed in other threads), but im concerned about my water. My tap water yesterday had a PH of 7.7. And it also seems to have a bit of chlorine (Maylands WA).
> 
> Could this have a significant effect on brewing a APA ? I'm planning on using some acidulated malt in the next BIAB I do, maybe 2-3%. Might try and boil off the chlorine before I start also.
> 
> Mind you, I had a slighlty different rough flavour (again not infected) with a extract brew I did as part of the troubleshooting exercise. I'm now thinking maybe this is a chlorine thing, as I believe PH doesnt affect extract brews noticeably. Any ideas?
> 
> Cheers, Foles.



Ive tried correcting two problems that I think are preventing me from brewing drinkable beer (BIAB) PH & chlorine/chloramines



Ive used treating PH with 3% acidulated malt in the mash

And treating chloramines with pinch of sodium met and sitting water overnight.



The Beer has come out rough, astringent/harshly bitter after tasting quite good in the fermenter. I suspect I havent corrected the PH properly. Im guessing the water was purged of chlormines with the sodium met but cannot be sure.



Thinking of trying the stabiliser 5.2 product. And also getting a PH meter or maybe just strips to begin with.



Is BIAB more suspectable to PH induced problems due the grist / water ratio ?


----------



## Bribie G

could be the chlorine. I get all my strike water from the solar HWS system and assume that the chlorine has been boiled out, and get smooth-as tasting brews with no harshness. Also I have started to use the 5.2 pH adjuster which can't do any harm.

While the thread is live again, two tweaks I used this afternoon with my urn / BIAB setup.


Thanks to Pollux for the idea, I slipped a sleeping bag over the urn then overwrapped the whole thing in my feather doonah and strapped it. Mash started at 67 and finished at 66 after 90 mins. Rapt.
I drew off about six litres of wort into a stockpot, added six litres of very hot water for a mashout, stirred like buggery, hoisted and drained bag then poured the six of wort back in for the boil. Currently on the boil and should reduce nicely over 90 mins. Be interested to see any increase in efficiency.


----------



## Cannibal Smurf

Interested in reading your results Michael, will keep an eye out for further posts tonight.

So you agree that the sleeping bag + doona combo keeps the heat in better than the doona alone? Might have to drag out my old sleeping bag....


----------



## Pollux

BribieG said:


> Thanks to Pollux for the idea, I slipped a sleeping bag over the urn then overwrapped the whole thing in my feather doonah and strapped it. Mash started at 67 and finished at 66 after 90 mins. Rapt.




It's awesome how well a sleeping bag works huh??

I use a camping mat and a sleeping bag, I get 1-2deg losses over 90mins, and that includes unwrapping it at 60mins to give it a good stir....


----------



## Bribie G

OK i've got a camping mat.... camping mat. Sleeping bag. Doonah ... h34r: TEN HOUR MASH HERE WE COME 

on topic though, it really puts paid to the "howl, wail...... I burned my bag while heating up the mash ...."

IMHO passive mashing is the only way to go with BIAB. Three vessel HERMS mashing is another story altogether of course but for BIAB, passive mashing is our HERMS equivalent.


----------



## Pollux

LOL.....

I love my camping mat, although I did notice I had bits melted to the urn after the last run....

I believe it's to do with the fact that I tried to manually lift a bag full of 5.5kg of wet grain and catch it in a bucket by myself and therefore spilt some between the urn and the mat....

It seems to have over heated the mat in spots and melt it to the urn, was easy to wash off but the mat is dead...

Time to spend another $5.....And I need a new hose, one that won't collapse under high temps..


----------



## katzke

foles said:


> I've tried correcting two problems that I think are preventing me from brewing drinkable beer (BIAB) PH & chlorine/chloramines
> 
> 
> 
> I've used treating PH with 3% acidulated malt in the mash
> 
> And treating chloramines with pinch of sodium met and sitting water overnight.
> 
> 
> 
> The Beer has come out rough, astringent/harshly bitter after tasting quite good in the fermenter. I suspect I haven't corrected the PH properly. I'm guessing the water was purged of chlormines with the sodium met but cannot be sure.
> 
> 
> 
> Thinking of trying the stabiliser 5.2 product. And also getting a PH meter or maybe just strips to begin with.
> 
> 
> 
> Is BIAB more suspectable to PH induced problems due the grist / water ratio ?



Water chemistry is a big involved subject that most brewers and those that teach ignore. It is not all that hard if you do some reading on the subject. Every ones water is different so what works for one person may not help you.

Yes I think BIAB is more susceptible to water problems. The entire process of mash pH depends on the malts ability to reduce the pH and if the water is tending to be alkaline some recipes just dont have enough of that ability because we use so much more water.

Get some test paper or if you have the cash a meter. But first I would do some reading and then when you know what to ask for get a water analysis for the important brewing chemicals. Using the 5.2 stabilizer will not hurt but I like to know what is going on with my water and add only what is needed.


----------



## Mantis

I managed to get my effeciency up to 70% yesterday from 60% that I have been getting. 

I did two things differently. 
I mashed for 90min instead of 60. 
I did a mashout that involved lifting the bag off the bottom of the pot (with my rope and pully) and tieing it off there. I then turned on the burner and raised the temp to 75C and when there I dunked the bag 5 or 6 times before raising and sqeezing it. 

Doing another brew today and have done the same so I hope for the same result


----------



## Thirsty Boy

turn that dunking into a proper stir, bag back in, opened up and stir it up well - and I will guess at another point or two of efficiency - maybe another couple if you don't raise the bag at all and add your heat while stirring constantly (assuming your set-up allows this) during the ramp.

It might not happen that way - But my guess is that it would do something similar at least.


----------



## Mantis

When I raise the bag the grain is still in the wort, just the bottom of the bag is off the bottom of the pot. 
But turning off the heat when it gets to 75, and dropping it back in and stirring like you say is worth a try for sure

Was very happy when the hydrometer settled at 1054 I can tell you. I was expecting 1045ish like the previous attempts


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Oh - I understood what you were doing - I think you should do both and you will get better result. Harder work, better efficiency - a choice.

By the way - try measuring the temperature after you have stirred the grain bag back in - I'd say (guessing only) that the temp drops significantly lower than the 75 once its been mixed up. Still - that bit might be wrong. I haven't tried it with the bag raised, I merely speculate. I do know however that if you measure the temp during a period of constant stirring... then you know its homogeneous and the temperature of the whole system is the 75 you are looking for.

Try it with the bag raised a few times - see if that makes a difference. Then try it a few times where you have left the bag in, open and stirred a few times - see if that makes any further difference.

It might not - but I reckon it will.

Remember too - as the gravity of your beer goes up, your efficiency will go down. This isn't anything that you can do something about in a non fly-sparge system. You just have to be aware of it. At 1.054 - I would be expecting in my BIAB brewing to getting 70-75%, so in my book you aren't all that far off anyway.


----------



## Pollux

I might try a mashout next time I do a brew...

I currently do a 90min mash and thought I was doing gangbusters with the eff %...Until I realised my post boil volume was out.....

First couple of batches are sitting at 60%.....


Problem is I have no skyhook or pulley system possible... I wonder if just lifting the bag a bit more over the edges and using some of those clamps that look like oversized clothes pegs would be enough in my urn, it does have a concealed element..


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Pollux said:


> I might try a mashout next time I do a brew...
> 
> I currently do a 90min mash and thought I was doing gangbusters with the eff %...Until I realised my post boil volume was out.....
> 
> First couple of batches are sitting at 60%.....
> 
> 
> Problem is I have no skyhook or pulley system possible... I wonder if just lifting the bag a bit more over the edges and using some of those clamps that look like oversized clothes pegs would be enough in my urn, it does have a concealed element..



The skyhook/pulley should make a difference to _nothing_ other than the ease with which you do things.

Pop in the ever popular cake rack to keep the bag off the element - stir constantly while heating it with the bag in there - pull out bag and throw into bucket where you can do your draining and squeezing

job done

and for gods sake people - stop worrying about efficiency so much. Sure - if in 10 brew's time it hasn't gone up a few notches - maybe then, but in the meantime, try out the different variations of BIAB *just because you can*. Then after you have gotten done with all the different tweaks, twists and changes, you will be a much more experienced brewer, you will have settled on a technique that suits you, the way you want to brew and your system - and lo & behold... I bet your average efficiency is a bunch higher than it was before.


----------



## Pollux

I'm just interested in the concept of performing a mashout, beyond that I honestly can't be arsed IYKWIM.....

Cake rack shopping time it is, watch out golo...


----------



## smollocks

Thirsty Boy said:


> turn that dunking into a proper stir, bag back in, opened up and stir it up well - and I will guess at another point or two of efficiency - maybe another couple if you don't raise the bag at all and add your heat while stirring constantly (assuming your set-up allows this) during the ramp.



Is there any benefit to maintaining the mashout temperature for (say) 15 minutes, or do you just remove the bag as soon as you reach mashout temperature?


----------



## Thirsty Boy

smollocks said:


> Is there any benefit to maintaining the mashout temperature for (say) 15 minutes, or do you just remove the bag as soon as you reach mashout temperature?




I don't think it will make a lot of difference (assuming you stirred up to it rather than lifted the bag) - but it might. Give it a crack and see. Gotta balance off the extra time and effort for what it will give you.


----------



## dpadden

From Basic Brewing website....

BIAB Podcast

Australian home brewers Dan Walker and Geoff Hammond explain the all grain technique of Brew in a Bag, which they advocate as a good way to get into brewing with grain.


----------



## Bribie G

Great link Paddo. 
Pollux, may have mentioned this before but what I've been doing is to run 8 litres of first runnings out of urn into stockpot number one, add equivalent amount of boiling water out of stockpot number two into the urn to bring to a mashout temp (still fine tuning that one..) Then stir like buggery. Hoist, drain and squeeze bag then pour the first runnings back into the urn. I've been doing a two hour boil to get the level back down to where it should have been. Two hours is good enough for Pilsener Urquell, good enough for me


----------



## dpadden

Paddo said:


> From Basic Brewing website....
> 
> BIAB Podcast
> 
> Australian home brewers Dan Walker and Geoff Hammond explain the all grain technique of Brew in a Bag, which they advocate as a good way to get into brewing with grain.




Just finished listening....congrats on a great interview guys.


----------



## Bribie G

I take it Dan is thirsty boy? Sounds more mature and sensible than I imagined :lol: :lol: Great show.


----------



## eamonnfoley

Why dont you just pop the BIAB bag into a bucket after you take it out of the mash - then periodicially pour additional wort it into the boil. ?


----------



## Mantis

foles said:


> Why dont you just pop the BIAB bag into a bucket after you take it out of the mash - then periodicially pour additional wort it into the boil. ?



I think most of us do. I hang the bag on a hook so its off the bottom, but in the bucket, then pour the drippings into the boil. After about 5 mins the bag has cooled enough to give it a real good squeeze and thats about it.


----------



## Damian44

I hang my bag above my pot as it heats up to the boil. After 10 min the steam out of the pot completly fills the bag with water. I give the bag a squeze every time it fills, until i reach the boil.


----------



## canon1ball

Paddo said:


> Just finished listening....congrats on a great interview guys.




Thanks Paddo, for the podcast tip. 
Reading through this forum for a week or so (just finished post#620) and about to do my first BIAB. Brewing kit beers with aditions (Crystal malt, extra hops etc.) with good results for a year now. 
I'm not interested in perfect brewing, I'm simply after a better beer than the ones they sell at the bottle shops without the $60 to $80 price tag to enjoy with friends and by myself. BIAB seems to be the answer!
So, in short I'm happy for every tip I can get for my first BIAB brew and I'm listening to 'Brew in a Bag' by Dan and Geoff right now and hope to gain more confidence!


----------



## Mantis

canon1ball said:


> Thanks Paddo, for the podcast tip.
> Reading through this forum for a week or so (just finished post#620) and about to do my first BIAB. Brewing kit beers with aditions (Crystal malt, extra hops etc.) with good results for a year now.
> I'm not interested in perfect brewing, I'm simply after a better beer than the ones they sell at the bottle shops without the $60 to $80 price tag to enjoy with friends and by myself. BIAB seems to be the answer!
> So, in short I'm happy for every tip I can get for my first BIAB brew and I'm listening to 'Brew in a Bag' by Dan and Geoff right now and hope to gain more confidence!



Check out the blog in my sig. It has pics of my first biab and went off without a hitch. Its a simple process and really not much that can go wrong. 
So jump in man and get brewin


----------



## Bribie G

possibly a bit off topic but I have done a couple of brews in the last few weeks with a big whack of adjunct:

A Solly Cerveza with 4kg of Galaxy and 1kg of rice (cooked to mushy)

A Kiwi Blonde with 4kg of Galaxy and 1kg of polenta cooked mushy.

What has really struck me is that in both cases the end result of the mash has been a bag that has drained quickly and after a bit of squeezing has yielded an almost dry bag of spent grain. I hang it over the baby bath next to the urn, and don't even get a cup of extra wort running out of it. Normally, doing a grain bill of 5kg of Maris Otter with a few specialty grains I end up with a bag that takes ages to drain it and needs heaps of squeezing, yields a couple of extra litres in the baby bath, and is still quite heavy when I take it out to the compost.

I think the adjunct grain, maybe, after the starches have been converted by the malt enzymes, is leaving hulls in the mash sort of like rice hulls, that fluff up the mash and let it drain out much drier than all malt?

Obviously a style that lends itself to BIAB.


----------



## canon1ball

Mantis said:


> Check out the blog in my sig. It has pics of my first biab and went off without a hitch. Its a simple process and really not much that can go wrong.
> So jump in man and get brewin



Already printed out your blog/pic's a week ago. Thanks!
The pic's helped to explain the process to a mate of mine with Parkinsons desease, he loves a good beer too!


----------



## warrenlw63

:lol: Spills and Thirsty sound like The Wiggles.  

Warren -


----------



## Thirsty Boy

warrenlw63 said:


> :lol: Spills and Thirsty sound like The Wiggles.
> 
> Warren -




No one in their right mind would let either of us sing - or anywhere near their children for that matter

Although Spills does have a red car and a propensity towards skivvies........


----------



## reviled

Thought I would add here that I believe I have overcome the problem of a cloudy/hazy beer...

Ive had massive probs with chill haze cos of BIAB, ive watched a few others brew traditionally and ive put it down to all the protein not being filtered by the grain bed, which is why we get such a cloudy wort, and up untill recently all of my beers (apart from my dark beers) and this has been causing me to get alot of shit from other brewers on their mission to convert me to traditional...

Now I can fight back! I did a pale beer, 3kg Pils and 250g Munich, and went and brought a PH meter, I checked the PH of the mash before I added anything, 6.9, then (because I didnt have proper stuff on hand) squeezed the juice out of two lemons, stirred really well and checked the PH again, 5.5, awesome! Mashed as usual, used carageenan as usual, fermented out etc...

When I kegged it, I didnt use gelatine like I usually do, and after about a week and a half in the keg, im pouring clear, almost bright beer with absolutely no chill haze at all :beerbang: 

Now im not saying this will work for everyone, and im not blaming BIAB for chill haze, allthough for me I know its the contributing factor over others who arent fiddling with mash PH etc, but hey, if a bit of lemon juice works for me (ive got some citric acid now), then so be it! Had to share cos im absolutely stoked!!


----------



## katzke

reviled said:


> Now I can fight back! I did a pale beer, 3kg Pils and 250g Munich, and went and brought a PH meter, I checked the PH of the mash before I added anything, 6.9, then (because I didnt have proper stuff on hand) squeezed the juice out of two lemons, stirred really well and checked the PH again, 5.5, awesome! Mashed as usual, used carageenan as usual, fermented out etc...
> 
> Now im not saying this will work for everyone, and im not blaming BIAB for chill haze, allthough for me I know its the contributing factor over others who arent fiddling with mash PH etc, but hey, if a bit of lemon juice works for me (ive got some citric acid now), then so be it! Had to share cos im absolutely stoked!!



That can be one of the potential problems with BIAB. It is not like we are running afoul of brewing science, more like we are validating it. Because we use more water in the mash, pH can be a problem. The explanation is easy. Remember that the grain reacts with the water chemistry. Light colored grains have less ability to acidify the mash. We are using more water and so effectively have less grain then other mash techniques.

I think that most home brewers have pH problems but because they use less water when mashing the result is not as noticeable. It is not hard to test pH and make easy adjustments. I do it the hard way and am still learning the effects of adding brewing salts to adjust the water. 5.2 stabilizer is also a quick and easy way to fight pH problems.


----------



## Bribie G

I have been using 5.1 stabiliser in all my brews for the last six brews and they are coming out just fine, as well as using Polyclar.

see my Cerveza post 1749


----------



## reviled

BribieG said:


> I have been using 5.1 stabiliser in all my brews for the last six brews and they are coming out just fine, as well as using Polyclar.
> 
> see my Cerveza post 1749



I was allways hesitent to use polyclar cos of the need for filtering, and now I dont have to, lemon juice is more natural


----------



## Mantis

I use the 5.2 stabiliser and my brews are coming out clear. Citric acid may well be a cheaper option tho


----------



## Thirsty Boy

reviled said:


> I was allways hesitent to use polyclar cos of the need for filtering, and now I dont have to, lemon juice is more natural



not sure if this is just an excuse for the tounge poke - so if it is, silly me.

You don't need to filter polyclar - you buy the VT variety sold by some of the site sponsors. It has a larger particle size and settles out perfectly well. You just rack off it along with the yeast.

doesn't hurt you anyway - although I have heard it might make you fart....


----------



## flattop

I fart alot since i HB anyhow, i think it's the yeast....


----------



## RdeVjun

flattop said:


> I fart alot since i HB anyhow, i think it's the yeast....


Seconded flattop, not just a lot, but, at times, one helluva lot! Spousie is none too impressed, I just shrug my shoulders and say, well, will I go back to drinking [insert random expensive commercial here] and be near broke all the time. Can't argue with saving money. :icon_cheers:


----------



## Sentry459

LOL glad I'm not the only one. I had a bottle of the brew before bed last night, and this morning I'm having quite the shocker. :unsure:


----------



## Mantis

Sentry459 said:


> LOL glad I'm not the only one. I had a bottle of the brew before bed last night, and this morning I'm having quite the shocker. :unsure:




I would like to but think it would be risky h34r:


----------



## Damian44

I was just wondering how much wort every ones losing to the grains after a good squeze of the bag?


----------



## Bribie G

I know where you are coming from, compared to batch or fly sparging, theoretically there's more goodness and sweetness left in the spent grain with BIAB. Hard to calculate, but I have minimised this somewhat by doing a sort of mashout by drawing 6 litres of first runnings out of my urn at end of mash, pour 6 litres of near boiling water into the bag, stir like buggery and hoist the bag. Then after draining and squeezing I add the 6 litres back into the urn and do a longer boil to get the wort level down again.

Another thing I have been doing is using adjuncts such as rice and maize in some styles (Cerveza etc) and note that the adjunct grains nearly all 'disappear' during the mash so all that is left is the husks of the malt plus whatever proteins etc are left over and the resulting bag of spent grain is fairly small and can be squeezed almost to dryness quite easily (and I'm no Sumo wrestler  )





That yellow stuff is some spent component of Polenta used in the mash. 

Don't have any difficulty in hitting reasonable OGs for the styles I have been brewing.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Damian44 said:


> I was just wondering how much wort every ones losing to the grains after a good squeze of the bag?



I lose about 0.5l/kg of starting grain - thats is the grain bill is reasonably small, the more grain in the bag, the harder it is to squeeze well.

Still - even if you just let it drain out till it stops dripping (no squeeze at all) you only lose around 0.7-0.75L per kg of starting grain bill.

so - 30L of starting water and 5kg of grain.. I would expect 26.5-27.5L of wort after I pull , drain and squeeze the bag

TB


----------



## QldKev

One concern I have had with the idea of hanging the bag to drain is HSA, or is it such a small quatity it doesn't really matter?

QldKev


----------



## katzke

QldKev said:


> One concern I have had with the idea of hanging the bag to drain is HSA, or is it such a small quatity it doesn't really matter?
> 
> QldKev



HSA is not a problem.


----------



## reviled

katzke said:


> HSA is not a problem.



Does it even exist?


----------



## katzke

reviled said:


> Does it even exist?



Lots easier to just say it is not a problem then get into a discussion.

Yes it does exist but not on any scale that home brewers need to worry about. For one we all get it if we mash grains, 2 not anything we can do about it, and 3 unless you store your beer in a hot car for weeks at a time not much to worry about.

See what I mean, lots easier to just say it is not a problem.


----------



## reviled

katzke said:


> See what I mean, lots easier to just say it is not a problem.



:lol: fair enough mate


----------



## Bizier

I want to say my congrats for BIAB maying it into BYO mag.


----------



## Bribie G

Where do you get BYO mag from? Do you have to subscribe?

ON topic I drop into a couple of UK forums and they also tend to put the word 'myth' after every occurrence of HSA :lol: . I would be more worried about DMS personally.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Katzke has it - HSA is real, you cant deny oxidation, it just happens. Whether it is a significant problem in homebrew, who knows.

Thats not the question, the question is - why would HSA be more of a problem in BiaB than in Batch sparging??? So sure, it might be an issue... but if you think good beer free of issue from HSA is possible to make using a batch sparge, then its also possible from BiaB.

decide for yourself

Bribie - how is BiaB related to DMS issues?


----------



## katzke

Thirsty Boy said:


> Katzke has it - HSA is real, you cant deny oxidation, it just happens. Whether it is a significant problem in homebrew, who knows.
> 
> but if you think good beer free of issue from HSA is possible to make using a batch sparge, then its also possible from BiaB.



See that is my point. HSA does happen when we mash. I am sure I had a post about it a while back. An enzyme is involved and that enzyme is only active up to 140 F. I recall it is denatured just like any other enzyme above that temp.

So HSA needs the enzyme, O2, and heat but not over 140 F. The enzyme is in the grain. O2 is in the water as well as the grain. We add the heat when we mash.

So in regards to BIAB any HSA will have happened (just like in any mashing method) and stopped before the bag gets pulled. 

So it is not a problem any more then it is in any other brewing method. HSA takes time to show up because the O2 is released slowly in the aging process the beer goes through as it, well gets old and starts to break down. Breweries worry about it because they can not control what people do with the beer once it is out of the brewery. Maybe the delivery truck breaks down and sets on the side of the road for a few days in the hot sun. Maybe the beer sets on the shelf in a hot store for weeks or months. Home brew lives the life of luxury compared to factory beer.

HSA is one of the things home brewers got a bit of info from the pro brewers and we have no need to worry about it as we can not do anything about it. Not only can we not do anything about it but it does not even effect most all home brewers because we take better care of our beer or drink it before any effects will show up. From what I read most of you have half or more of your beer drank before I ever get around to kegging mine.


----------



## reviled

Just did a blog post here detailing my last brew with some BIAB changes.

Namely utilising Spills' dunk sparge technique and noticing how much more effective it was than the shitty sparge I was doing, plus adapting caramelisation of 1st 'drippings' for BIAB B)


----------



## Bribie G

Thirsty Boy said:


> Bribie - how is BiaB related to DMS issues?


Got my wires crossed here, was thinking more about alleged DMS when cubing but of course that's not BIAB specific. Sometimes I forget I'm doing BIAB, to me it's just become 'brew session' as a continuous process between grain and cube and I get tunnel vision


----------



## hairyson

I got some bag material yesterday, and thought I'd report back to the thread. 

I went to Spotlight on Sydney Rd in Brunswick (Melbourne) and went out to the back building. Asked for Swiss Voile, they took me straight to the stuff, but there was some discussion on what *they* thought I needed. First it was coloured, then cotton, then something that felt like cotton but which the salesperson assured me was polyester, with a price of about $22/m. The uncoloured 100% polyester stuff was there as well, for $7/m. 

I also asked for some thread to sew it with, and they suggested Gutermann poly thread, so I took some of that as well. 

If I'm motivated enough I'll try using the wife's sewing machine tonight to put a bag together. Is there any need to get into any fuss about the design of the bag?

Ben


----------



## Damian44

benny i went with the round bottom design, and im very happy with it. Just make sure the circle is bigger than your pot.


----------



## Bribie G

Sounds like you got the kosher stuff. Round bottom is better but double sew all the seams. I have a pillowcase design but it hangs like a giant pair of dog's knackers whereas the round bottom hangs like a teardrop. Round one for me next time.


----------



## mikelinz

benny said:


> I got some bag material yesterday, and thought I'd report back to the thread.
> 
> I went to Spotlight on Sydney Rd in Brunswick (Melbourne) and went out to the back building. Asked for Swiss Voile, they took me straight to the stuff, but there was some discussion on what *they* thought I needed. First it was coloured, then cotton, then something that felt like cotton but which the salesperson assured me was polyester, with a price of about $22/m. The uncoloured 100% polyester stuff was there as well, for $7/m.
> 
> 
> 
> Ben



I personally thing the "swiss voil " thing is creating unnecessary confusion. The problem is is the true voil is very fine cotton (doesn't work, my wife had some so i tried it) and some clever marketing person has called a poly product swiss voil to sell more of the stuff. So only shops that stock that particular brand are going to have swiss voil and even spotlight doesn't necessarily have the same stock in every store. 

I have made several BIAB bags (and lots of hop bags). I go to the net curtain remnant bin at spotlight (but any curtain/fabric shop will have net curtaining) and choose white sheer net curtaining (polyester or nylon? - not sure but doesn't really matter if it meets the requirements- keeps grain in, lets wort out and strong enough) with as fine a weave as possible. I usually pay $2-3 for a remnant (usually1-1.5M wide & about 2M Long - sometimes they have tape at the top which I retain if the remnant is wide enough and makes the top of the bag a bit stronger). They have all worked well and the leftover from the BIAB bag makes great hop bags. 

rgds mike


----------



## mikelinz

mikelinz said:


> I personally think the "swiss voil " thing is creating unnecessary confusion. The problem is that true voil is very fine cotton (doesn't work, my wife had some so i tried it) and some clever marketing person has called a poly product swiss voil to sell more of the stuff. So only shops that stock that particular brand are going to have swiss voil and even spotlight doesn't necessarily have the same stock in every store.
> 
> I have made several BIAB bags (and lots of hop bags). I go to the net curtain remnant bin at spotlight (but any curtain/fabric shop will have net curtaining) and choose white sheer net curtaining (polyester or nylon? - not sure but doesn't really matter if it meets the requirements- keeps grain in, lets wort out and strong enough) with as fine a weave as possible. I usually pay $2-3 for a remnant (usually1-1.5M wide & about 2M Long - sometimes they have tape at the top which I retain if the remnant is wide enough and makes the top of the bag a bit stronger). They have all worked well and the leftover from the BIAB bag makes great hop bags.
> 
> rgds mike


----------



## Bubba Q

currently got a 25ltr batch of DrSmurtos Golden Ale boiling away for my very first BIAB

seems no more difficult than extract brewing so far, makes me think i should have started AG a while ago


----------



## flattop

It's a fine drop bubba


----------



## tumi2

Hi all 

I have now done several K&K brews plus some grain steeping and hops additions. So far all is good but I am ready to have a crack at my first All Grain beer using the BIAB method and NoChill. 

I realise this will be a learning experience and the chance of getting a good beer first go are slim so I am prepared to take that. As such I am using a very simple recipie. However, any information anyone would like to give me will hopefully increase the chance of a decent beer. 

I intend to have a crack at a standard English Bitter as I have some of the ingredients already and it seems a simple beer to start with.



*My recipe goes*: 

4kg of Pale malt

700g and Crystal malt
30gr of Norther Brewer @ 60 mins 7% AA

20 Grams of Goldings @ 20 min 4.5% AA

20 Grams of Goldings @ 5 mins 4.5 AA

25 Grams Dry Hop into cube for 1 week during No Chill storage


Wirfloc

English SafAle yeast 

I hope anyone may be able to correct me and answer some questions or comment on my thoughts.



*My Equipment:*

- Stainless steel cooking pot 50ltr

- 3 ring burner with normal regulator

- Swiss Voile BIAB Bag and 2 hops bags of Swiss Voile

- A 15mm piece of granite to put under the burner so it does burn my wife photo studio floor

-  Food grade (heat resistant) piece of pipe to take hot wort into cube as I have not tap on the pot

- All the normal brewing gear used for a K&K eg scales, spoon etc

- Hanging rack to hang bag of pot after mash and to drip into pot.



 *How much water to a start with?*

I am thinking 33ltr 

*Why?: *

Total grain = 4.7 kg and I assume a loss of 0.7ltr per kg of grain = 3.3 ltr

Loss to Boil (15%): 33*.15 = 5ltr

Loss to bottom of pot trub and bottom of pot: 2ltr (complete guess!!!!)



33 3.3 5 2 = 22.7

BINGO ..I have 23ltr apprx into my cube



*Mash Temp?*
65-67 degrees. Intend to get the water to 70 and then adding the grain to the bag hopefully bringing the temp to the desired range. I intend to moderate the temp by turning the flame on my burner down and check temp often.



*Efficiency?*

I have no idea what this will be but hope to start to get to know my system.



*pH levels in boil?*

Given I am a beginner and this could be a hectic day for me do you think it is worth worrying about the boil pH or should this wait until I have more experience? 

I am in Inner South West Sydney and think the water is OK and it has been in my brews to date. I have a water filter installed and use the water from this for my beer which removes the Chlorine nicely. There is a big difference between tap and filtered water.



*Dry hopping?* 

I am adding 15gr Dry hops cause I want some aroma. 
Can I just add the dry hopping hops into the cube for the No Chill or does it have to go in the fermenter? It will be in no Chill cube for about 1 week.



*No-Chill*

I will cube the beer for 1 week and then ferment.  

My method of transferring hot wort into the cube is quite manual. 

I have a 2m length of heavy food grade tubing (heavier than the standard clear stuff you see) that I will insert all but about 20cm of the end into the hot wort. I will then plug the protruding end and then grab the hose and put it in the cube and remove the plug. Hopefully this will make a flow provided I have the lowest point of the hot wort higher than the highest point of the cube. I will put the output end under the level of the wort once I get some in their.



*Secondary ferment*

Will rack beer from 1st fermenter back into cube for secondary fermenting and conditioning then use original fermenter for bulk priming, then bottle 

Hopefully I can share some of the lessons I learn as an inexperienced first time AG BIAB brewer with other first timers.


----------



## hairyson

tumi2 said:


> *How much water to a start with?*
> 
> I am thinking 33ltr
> 
> *Why?: *
> 
> Total grain = 4.7 kg and I assume a loss of 0.7ltr per kg of grain = 3.3 ltr
> 
> Loss to Boil (15%): 33*.15 = 5ltr
> 
> Loss to bottom of pot trub and bottom of pot: 2ltr (complete guess!!!!)
> 
> 
> 
> 33 3.3 5 2 = 22.7
> 
> BINGO ..I have 23ltr apprx into my cube



Hi tumi,
we've recently (last night!) made the decision to measure loss to evaporation as a rate, rather than a percentage. With our setup, and at a rolling boil (rather than a very vigorous boil), we gauge that we lose about 5.5 litres per hour to steam. For a 60 minute boil starting with 33 litres, this gives 5.5/33 * 100 = 16.7% evaporation. So your guess at 15% isn't far off our calcs  If you do shorter or longer boils, or start doing larger batches, then you might consider the rate calcs instead. For example, for a 60 minute boil starting with 50 litres, losses to evaporation are 11%. 

We assume loss to kettle and trub of ~2l, but loss to grain ~1l/kg. We've yet to measure the loss to grain accurately (only just bought the scales to handle it), but it fits the results at the end of the mash. You can get differences here by squeezing the bag, or letting it drip for a long time.

I can't really comment on the rest. Have a good one!


----------



## stm

tumi2 said:


> - Hanging rack to hang *bag of pot *after mash and to drip into pot.




Looking forward to your report on how this turns out!


----------



## tumi2

stm said:


> Looking forward to your report on how this turns out!


It is a professional photography light stand that i will hang the bag from over the pot so it can drip into it. not sure how much weight it will hold but i will find out soon enough. Seems an easier way to do it than squeezing into a bucket from a door handle.


----------



## PistolPatch

Good luck with your first one tumi and you can fully expect to brew a great beer first up.

Your evap calcs are a bit out and you should really allow greater losses to trub (say 4lts) to make things easy on yourself. Without going into any detail, you'd be a bit better off with a 90 minute boil starting off with say 37lts. This will get you closer.

There is no problem with using your proposed 33lts but you will almost certainly need to use top up water.

Your first priority though on your first 5 or so brews should be getting your original gravity correct. Once you can do this, it is an easy matter to get volumes right and at a level that makes life easy and give you clear beer into your fermenter. Leaving just a little trub in the kettle will certainly improve your efficiency figures on the surface but not in reality as the wort you are putting into the fermenter won't be as clear as it should be.

Good on you,
Pat


----------



## flattop

PP is sort of right about evap rates BUT it really depends on how strong a boil you can get. My urn (Crown) doesn't get as good a boil as the Birko or a gas burner and pot so i find my evap rates are less, they also differ indoor and outdoor and with changes in ambient air temp. I use a 33L starting point and usually finish with about 21-23 Litres in the fermenter.
BTW don't get hung up on a 23L finish as it's not important in AG, you make the volume to suit the target gravity not to suit the size of your fermenter.
Anyhow as PP said, starting with a lower volume means you can always top up but making the wort too weak means you have to lengthen the boil time to get the SG right.
It's far easier to pour water in than boil it off. 
Wet grain would probably be 10-15k as you start with 5k dry and then soak it.
Not sure how your siphoning will go but consider straining or better yet filtering the wort before cubing, can be done with a nylon stocking over the hose end....
This will help keep your wort clearer into the cube.

Good luck and don't forget to update the register when you are done...

Dry hop into your secondary not your cube.


----------



## pdilley

I was at about 34lt with 5kg of Muntons malt, but I also squeezed and drained the buggary out of the bag after being done and poured a decent amount of liquid back in plus another litre of water for the boil. I had a rolling boil but not a fire and brimstone all hell breaks loose boil session. When done, I hit the top of the no chill cube almost spot on so I was chuffed.

With 1st BIAB don't get down on yourself. Go along for the ride and learn the process without stressing yourself. Save the hitting targets for you next few down the road.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete

EDIT: Racking into a cube works great. Might want to use kitchen baking glove if you have a small diameter tube and need to hold your racking cane for an extended period of time to drain your pot into the cube.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

I see precisely and absolutely nothing about your process that I would change.

Your thought process and conclusions are exactly spot on - given your equipment I would do almost exactly what you propose.

You may lose a fraction more to trub than yu have proposed - but thats it. You dont fix that by adding more water, you fix it by increasing _everything _about your recipe proportionally. I wouldn't worry about it though - you dont know your efficiency or boil off rate or anything yet - so its a voyage of discovery for you.

You have picked a Bitter as your beer, which I think is a great choice for a first beer - because the results will all still be good. If you get less extraction than you though (or decide you want to dilute for more volume) then you get an Ordinary Bitter - if its a bit stronger you get an ESB. So you can happily brew away, find out the things you dont know about your system on the fly and plug that knowledge back into your next brew.

Well done, you seem to have pretty thoroughly researched how to manage this process and obviously have a grasp of the mechanics and principles, you will brew fine beer.

Don't change a thing - leave that for next time.

TB

oh - and as for pH - its mash pH you need to worry about (worrying about boil pH is "advanced" brewing by any definition) and even mash pH .... give yourself half a dozen brews before you even look at it.


----------



## truecolor

simulation credit auto
 
I like where this thread is going. But I do not feel creative enough to contribute at this time.


----------



## tumi2

So yesterday I did my first AG as per my post earlier, using the BIAB method. Thanks to all who responded to my original post as I took the info onboard and it certainly helped. I have taken a lot from this forum over the last few months and contributed little. The least I can now do is share my experiences from my first AG BIAB beer. Hopefully sharing my experience may assist any new brewers who wish to have a crack at this. I can honestly say that it really isnt that hard..



This is a long post and hopefully useful to someone out there.



With the beer transferred from the cube to the fermenter on today it is now a waiting game. The day was 80% success 20 % dismal failure. But importantly I have learnt from all of it and know confidently that I can do this easily in the future. It looks like I have myself a new hobby and I have also convinced my assistant for the day to get on board. We are now going to share cost of equipment, effort and bounty. 



*Targets for the day*

23 ltr into cube and fermenter

1039 OG

No burns or fires 
A happy wife who will let me use her studio in the future



*Mash*

This went so well that I actually spent most of the time reading the paper and chilling out as you would want on a hung over Sunday morning.



I did a 90 minute mash with 37 ltr of starting water thanks to Pistol Peter who recommended this. It took a fair while for the water temp to reach 69 degs. I would definitely start this earlier next time. Once it reached the temp I added 4.7 kg of grain with no sticking or clumping whatsoever.



I turned the flame off and wrapped the pot up with a curtain I found lying around in my wife food photography studio. Mistake number 1 wifey was not too happy. I expected a few degs decrease due to the grain but didnt get that at all.



I measured and agitated the wort every 5 minutes or so for the first hour and it dropped at most one degree to 68. I then let it go for 10 minute intervals and after about 1 hour I had only lost another 1 degree. So after the 90 minute mash I lost at very most 3 degrees and didnt have to light the flame of the burner at all. Was pretty stoked about this. It is a quality stainless steel 50ltr pot that I have used over the years for making my yearly tomato sauce and stocks.



So after 90 mins the heat to boil began and I took a gravity reading.



Into boil reading was:



1020 @ 67 degrees Temp adjusted = 1040

Volume was 33.5 ltr so I lost 3.5 ltr to 4.7kg of grain. This equals .74 ltr lost per kg which is pretty much what I was prepared for.



I had wanted a lower mash temp (65 67) and just assumed I would loose more temp than I did but it is good to know my pot retains heat so well. I will not start at such a high temp next time.



*Bag Sparging*



I hung the bag directly over the pot on my wifes lighting stand. This worked very well and I squeezed the life out of the bag using some pot lids and hands once it cooled. I got a fair bit from doing this.



In the end I thought the steam from the heating wort may be slowing me draining more so I moved the bag to the side and squeezed some more. It was now quite syrupy liquid coming out. Next time I think I would use another litre or 2 of hot water for helping me extract this. I would just factor that into my original water calculations. Anyway the grain was pretty dry by the time I finished this but I know I could get more pretty easily.



*Boil*

It took about 20 mins to get the wort to a soft even boil which was held by turning off the middle ring of my three ring burner.



I had read that you have to wait for the hot break before putting my first bittering hops in and starting my 60 minute boil timings. I waited for about 20 mins and didnt see any hot break only froth which was skimmed often. I will definitely be a skimmer, the skum didnt taste good and with experience making base stocks I couldnt dream of leaving that stuff in the wort. After 20 minutes I couldnt spot a hot break, mind you I didnt know what I was trying to spot so I went ahead and added my first 20gr hops sock of Northern Brewer.



Within 2 minutes I had a hot break, it is easy to spot, little bits of coagulated white stuff that is distinguishable from general froth. 



Was the hot break due to the hops addition or did I just not wait long enough?



The boil was pretty smooth with no sight of boilovers and consistent removal of froth. Hops additions went to plan.



I kept an eye on the volume and by the end of the 90 minute boil I ended up with exactly 23.5 ltr into the cube. Happy with that!!!



Therefore, I had 3 litres lost to trub in the kettle.



33.5 3 = 30.5



23.5 litres into cube 30.5 - 23.5 = 7 litres of water to the boil evaporation. This equals about 18 % loss to evaporation which is 3% more than I had allowed for.



Whirfloc went in with 15 mins to go.



*Boil Ends*



I made a good solid whirlpool and then the 2 of us lifted the pot onto the bench and placed the cube on a stool at a lower lever to the pot ready for the transfer from pot to cube.



Did a Whirlpool rest for 15 mins and was amazed at how much stuff dropped out.



But here is where it all went pear shaped.



*Transfer to cube*

One poster warned me that my hose may melt and after putting it in the wort for the drain to cube it very quickly softened and kinked rather than smoothly winding around the base of the pot. I knew immediately it was not going to work so I removed the tube and threw it in the bin. Im pretty sure I got it out fast enough before and leeching or melting of plastic occurred. frustrating, it had all gone so well till now!!!!!



So we jumped into action to come up with another method of transfer. Fortunately I was in my wifes food photography studio with a kitchen so I grabbed a funnel and 2 of us managed to very carefully angle the pot on the bench and pour the liquid into the cube. So Im afraid the wort definitely has HSA, not that I know what that is or what it means. Hopefully infection will not occur. I did sanitize the funnel and everything else.



The liquid going into the cube was much clearer than I would have thought. Much clearer than any kit beer I have done. It was also very easy to see when to stop the drain into the cube and leave the trub in the pot.



I left about 2 litres in the pot which was less than I had expected.



Unfortunately, I forgot to take a temperature reading of wort in the cube before I closed the lid on it so I dont know what the OG was then. I took a guess and it turned out to be 1036 adjusted at an estimated temp. A bit lower than I wanted but too late to do anything about.



*Transfer to fermenter from cube*

The next day I drained from the cube to the fermenter by simply opening the tap of the cube and letting it splash into the fermenter. Then pitched the yeast at 20 degrees.



I was surprised how much sediment had settled out in the little feet of the cube. I left about another 1 or 1.5 litres of trub in the cube. 



Does this mean I didnt whirlpool rest enough?



I ended up with 21 litres in the fermenter which is 2 litres shy of my target. Oh well..!!



So in total I lost about 3 to 4 litres of water to trub including in the kettle and the cube.



The wort into the cube was very clear and disturbingly thin. This surprised/ worried me and I expected a gravity reading would be even lower than 1036. Worried that I missed my OG target by a fair way I took another reading it was on 1039!!!



So my target was 1039 and my OG into fermenter at 20 degrees was 1039. Very happy with that!!!!!!



*Taste*

I tasted at many stages throughout the process, a habit from years of cooking. Unfortunately, I am not happy with the taste and am afraid after such a successful (bar a few issues) day the product is not one Im happy with. It was very very bitter when I tasted it immediately after the boil ended. I dont think I will use Northern Brewer hops again. The initial taste is quite malty and nice but the after taste is very bitter. Im talking about not drinkable bitterness.



I tasted it again when it went into the fermenter a day later and the maltyness had increased a little and the bitterness had decreased significantly. It was still very bitter on the aftertaste but no where near as bitter as it was after the boil.



If anyone has any ideas on how I should save this then please let me know. 



I used:

- 25 grams of Northern Brewer @ 7% AA for 60 mins. 

- 20 g of Goldings @ 4.5 AA for 20 mins

- 20gr of Goldings @ 4.5% AA for 5 mins. 



Did I just use way to much hops?



I was going to dry hop but have now decided not to.



So to sum this experience up:

- I learnt a great deal

- It is not as difficult as it sounds when overloaded with information from the forums.

- I will have another crack at it soon

- The two of us had enough fun to decide to spend some $ on a good pot with a tap in it.



*Efficiency*

No idea what this is but if someone can help me calculate this it would be great. I can give the figures. I just dont know how to do this calculation myself. The Porter book hasnt helped me figure this out and my maths is not that good.



Despite the end result being questionable I am happy with the way the day went and can easily see this being a successful hobby in the future. Hopefully I will get a better tasting beer later. My assistant is hooked also so I now have a person to help with the work and costs.



Thanks to all in the forum, the info I got in here is 100% responsible for me having a crack at AG brewing with not much experience or knowledge.

I hope this post isnt too long for what this thread is about.


----------



## PistolPatch

Well done tumi and your post is not too long - there should be more of them with such detail. You have done a great report.

You said you had 80% success and 20% failure. I've had a few reads of your post and can't see the failure side. Can you let us know what bit/s caused you a worry?

Congrats on your first AG mate and double-thanks for your report :super: 
Pat


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## katzke

PistolPatch said:


> Well done tumi and your post is not too long - there should be more of them with such detail. You have done a great report.
> 
> You said you had 80% success and 20% failure. I've had a few reads of your post and can't see the failure side. Can you let us know what bit/s caused you a worry?
> 
> Congrats on your first AG mate and double-thanks for your report :super:
> Pat



Well what I got out was the taste was not what was expected and a few glitches in the process. Sounds normal to me.

For the taste issue I am in the USA so did not deal with converting the hop amounts. I can say if you were planning on dry hopping then go ahead. Dry hopping will not add to the bitterness, they only add flavor and aroma. The bitterness will age out if it is from the hops. Give a sample, when it is done, to someone who brews and see what they think. I find that raw brews taste much more bitter then when they turn into beer. In fact I am not sure tasting wort will give you an indication of what the final beer will taste like. A good example of this is our last brew. We used cinnamon in the mash as recommended by Charley Papazion. It had a very big cinnamon taste and smell out of the kettle. By the time the yeast worked it over the cinnamon was gone and it placed 3rd in a home brew competition.

The hose issue can be solved by following others advice and using silicon hose.

And to answer the question about the whorl pool. It is hard to make it work if you disturb the kettle. Having to pour the wort into the cube I am surprised you did not get much more.

I also understand that if you skim you are removing what makes the hot break. That could be why you got break after you added the hops. By skimming you delayed the process enough that adding the hops triggered a reaction with what material was left. But I have never done what you did so this is only a guess. It could also be that your boil was a bit low.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Tumi - your day sounds pretty good - slight glitch with the transfer to the cube, but you improvised and did it well.

Your losses 

- remember, you boiled for an extra 20min ... so you didn't lose 18% (this is a per hour figure) you lost about 13.5% per hour and so it would have been more like 5.25L in 60 mins - say 5.5 if you give yourself 5mins to wait for the break and then boil for 60min.

- you lost a little less to kettle trub becuae you skimmed and you used hop socks - what you skimmed off didn't end up in the bottom of the kettle, nor did any hop material. 2 ish litres sounds about right considering. Calculate for 4 next time anyway... then tweak it down after you see a trend developing.

- The stuff in your cube... If as you say, you transferred clear wort from the kettle into the cube - then the majority of what you found on the bottom of your cube would have been cold break. It isn't present in hot wort (still dissolved) You can transfer crystal clear wort to your cube & it will still form as the cube cools down. Not many people worry about getting cold break in the fermenter. Really fussy lager brewers separate it - but most commercial and home brewers just put it right in the fermenter. You can too and that will get you back a couple of litres. 

Efficiency -- cant tell you without a lot of detail about what grain you used, volumes at various stages etc etc ... but I can tell you this. You aimed for 23L in the fermenter @ 1.039 and if you had put in the 1.5L of coldbreak etc from the cube.. you would have had 22.5L @ 1.039 - and that means that you pretty much hit your numbers on the head. That means that recipes from that source are perfect for your system (so far) and thats all you really need efficiency figures for - to help you adjust recipes for use on your system.

Well done on your first brew.

TB

PS - unfermented wort always tastes a lot more bitter than the beer that results. A lot of that bitterness is going to stay behind in the fermenter. Wait for the actual beer before you make a judgement. You have about 30IBU in a not very strong beer - so it is going to be quite bitter tasting. But should not be in undrinkable territory


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## hairyson

katzke said:


> Give a sample, when it is done, to someone who brews and see what they think.


hmm, wise words. chuck a bottle over my way tumi.
actually, better make it a couple. I can never tell with just one ​


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## Scruffy

tumi2 said:


> bitter



Wait...













...a few weeks in the bottle, then complain...

Your post made me impatient for the weekend... well done, mate!


----------



## crundle

Great to hear it went well Tumi,

I wouldn't be too concerned about the bitterness yet, as the yeast hasn't had a chance to act yet, and the bitterness will diminish over time in the bottle as it is conditioned.

I throw the cold break from the cube into the fermenter and it doesn't seem to cause any flavour issues, and at the end of fermentation when I crash chill the fermenter, the cold break and yeast residue settle out well and leave me with more beer than I would have had if I had tried to separate the cold break when emptying the cube.

Get a few more brews under the belt, and you will get to know your system well enough to be able to replicate any recipe you find.

cheers,

Crundle


----------



## tumi2

PistolPatch said:


> Well done tumi and your post is not too long - there should be more of them with such detail. You have done a great report.
> 
> You said you had 80% success and 20% failure. I've had a few reads of your post and can't see the failure side. Can you let us know what bit/s caused you a worry?
> 
> Congrats on your first AG mate and double-thanks for your report :super:
> Pat




Thanks, the 20% failure i was referring to was the bad taste and the fact that my siphon method failed miserably. But on a more positive note, i tasted the fermenting wort again after 48 hours in the fermenter and the bitterness has reduced a great deal. it is starting to taste good now. So im very happy


----------



## LLoyd

> I waited for about 20 mins and didn't see any hot break only froth which was skimmed often. I will definitely be a skimmer, the skum didn't taste good and with experience making base stocks I couldn't dream of leaving that stuff in the wort.


tumi I'm bloody impressed! I enjoy a good stock like a mini brew day. Yet I'm not a wort skimmer. I never tasted the froth!  Now that you've made that connection I'll simply HAVE to! I taste my stock CONSTANTLY, yet I taste my brew ONCE at the end of the chill,  and three or four times during the ferment.  
You mentioned at the beginning of your report, the information helping other first timers. Mate your information up to the above quote has changed the whole way I see my brew process. Foodie brewer to foody brewer, 
Cheers mate!!

lloydie


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## Scruffy

Just finished my fourth BIAB! I love this discipline!!! However...

-snip-...bear in mind i'm from Bwittain... -snip-

i think I'm losing my mash control... I'm using S-04 exclusively in everything i've brewed in Aus - so that's proper post mash science...  

At my age I like to to err on a sweeter, fuller bodied style Bitter and my old school British technique i.e. mashing at a gnats' over 155F (hopefully producing less fermentables), batch sparging @ 170F, and controlling PH (in those heady days using citric acid... :blink: - i know! but 5.4+ish), with known water profiles... and maybe a smidge under an hours' mash (I know ...again  )- hopefully resulting in more alpha amylase (...i know there's trade off if you wait, and the beta's start breaking down the longer sugars... whoa: too much science...); then let fresh hop through. any road... i know BIAB isn't a mash esky...

My (perceived) BIAB method (and I actually believe i've gone a bit anal) would appear to be diluting relative concentrations of (beta and alpha) enzymes therefore altering/slowing conversion and (worse case for me) producing a more 'fermentable' (drier) mush (i.e. the chemistry isn't inhibited by normal high 'ESKY' concentration of sugars)
then again heat capacity of grain versus ....Oh bugger - drinking/boiling then typing...

...someone please tell me i've lost it, but i think i've lost a step in BIAB, namely mash control...

Unfortunately, I've also started coveting an awful lot of gadgets - refractometer, stir plate,


----------



## Thirsty Boy

IMHO - biab produces a drier beer for a given mash temperature.

So if your beers are too dry ... mash at a higher temperature. Simple as that. You should have as much (or nearly as much) control over the fermentability of your final beer with BIAB as you would with any other method. You will just have to tweak you process until you do.

Up the temp by a degree or two - then see.

And try using danstar's Windsor dried yeast - it leaves a lot more sweetness and body behind than S04


----------



## reviled

Thirsty Boy said:


> IMHO - biab produces a drier beer for a given mash temperature.



Why do you think this is? Ive recently moved house and have found my beers are finishing a bit higher than they used to? Im not too sure why this is yet tho...


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## Bribie G

Hi tumi, I missed your original post but as a BIAB-only brewer a couple of comments:

Rather than borrow the curtains, this time of year doonahs are plentiful and cheap and a dedicated single doonah should get you out of trouble with mashing provided you have a lid for the pot which I assume you do. Probably good to wrap the pot in an old beach towel first to keep doonah pristine.

Expensive but worthwhile as a long term investment is to get some silicone tubing for the syphoning, it's around seventeen bucks a metre from sponsors at the top of the page, ouch, but doesn't deform when hot and can be boiled to sterilise etc etc. If you are a good mechanic (I'm the world's worst handyman so that's one reason I use an electric urn) then consider fitting a ball lock tap to your pot to avoid syphoning into the cube.

Apart from that, your day was 'textbook' and good one. Congrats. My first BIAB went so well I couldn't believe it. As other posters have said the wort will taste completely different to the finished product. If I could get the final beer tasting as good as the wort I would sell my soul to Satan. h34r:


----------



## Katherine

BribieG said:


> Hi tumi, I missed your original post but as a BIAB-only brewer a couple of comments:
> 
> Rather than borrow the curtains, this time of year doonahs are plentiful and cheap and a dedicated single doonah should get you out of trouble with mashing provided you have a lid for the pot which I assume you do. Probably good to wrap the pot in an old beach towel first to keep doonah pristine.
> 
> Expensive but worthwhile as a long term investment is to get some silicone tubing for the syphoning, it's around seventeen bucks a metre from sponsors at the top of the page, ouch, but doesn't deform when hot and can be boiled to sterilise etc etc. If you are a good mechanic (I'm the world's worst handyman so that's one reason I use an electric urn) then consider fitting a ball lock tap to your pot to avoid syphoning into the cube.
> 
> Apart from that, your day was 'textbook' and good one. Congrats. My first BIAB went so well I couldn't believe it. As other posters have said the wort will taste completely different to the finished product. If I could get the final beer tasting as good as the wort I would sell my soul to Satan. h34r:



Bribie we brewed a double of Ross Bananabread bitter, once chilled we tasted it sooooooooooo good! We arent putting bananas in our half of the brew its that good! Looking forward to sampling it in a week or so!


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## Thirsty Boy

reviled said:


> Why do you think this is? Ive recently moved house and have found my beers are finishing a bit higher than they used to? Im not too sure why this is yet tho...



Just in the beers I have made and the beers of the other BIAB brewer who I have tasted the most samples from - Knowing the mash temps, I would have expected a bit more body.. raising mash temps fixed the issue. But if I tried the same temps on my non-biab rig, I would get beers a little too chewy. Its a not big difference in my system, but the other brewer I mentioned needed to go up several degrees hotter before he started producing beers that I thought had appropriate body.

Nothing that cant be fixed by tweaking over a few brews - probably as much difference between two different people's mash tun based systems. just something I have noticed thats all.

The main thing I wanted to do was provide a bit of reassurance that BIAB does not "spoil" you ability to control the fermentability of your beer - it affects it, but doesn't spoil it. You can make the beer you want if you make the appropriate adjustments.


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## Scruffy

Thirsty Boy said:


> The main thing I wanted to do was provide a bit of reassurance that BIAB does not "spoil" you ability to control the fermentability of your beer - it affects it, but doesn't spoil it. You can make the beer you want if you make the appropriate adjustments.


Which you did, thanks! I'll stick my head down, learn my system (which I'm still new to) and mash up a couple of notches...

Good cheers - and apologies for the slightly tipsy post before...


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## tumi2

Update on my first BIAB described several posts ago.

Unfortunately it has gone south since my last positive post.

the temperature dropped to about 16 or 17 degs while we were on holiday for 5 days so i think that it has stopped fermenting. it only dropped from 1039 to 1024 and has been stable on 1024 for a few days now. i have raised the temp to about 22 so hopefully it will start up again.
Also, a taste test has come up negative....
if you read my post about how my transfer from Kettle to cube went you will know it went pear shaped due to a collapsing hose so in the end i had to pour the wort in and it splashed a great deal.. so HSA is a certainty. After reading what HSA tastes like i can tell you that wet cardboard is a pretty close description cause my beer tastes like that... very disappointed.

My limited knowledge has taught me the following things:
- My mash temp of 69 deg was to high cause the wort taste sweetish with dextrins and is not fermenting as low as i would like, it is also high in body. This could explain the lack of fermentation - can easily reduce this next time
- I need to get better temp control in fermentation and consider learning how to start my yeast.
- My transfer sucked which caused HSA - Already ordered some silicone pipe to overcome this
- I now have a aeration pump so i can air my wort before pitching yeast which i didnt do. 

I am not giving up and will try the exact same recipe again so i can clearly learn from all this and the differences so although i am disappointed i sort of feel that the mistake and poor result will teach me more than a successful result.


----------



## reviled

tumi2 said:


> if you read my post about how my transfer from Kettle to cube went you will know it went pear shaped due to a collapsing hose so in the end i had to pour the wort in and it splashed a great deal.. so HSA is a certainty. After reading what HSA tastes like i can tell you that wet cardboard is a pretty close description cause my beer tastes like that... very disappointed.



I dont know if you would have got HSA, I have done this a few times without a negative result, in fact one of the best beers ive made was splashed about after the boil into a cube...


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## Bizier

Thirsty Boy said:


> The main thing I wanted to do was provide a bit of reassurance that BIAB does not "spoil" you ability to control the fermentability of your beer - it affects it, but doesn't spoil it. You can make the beer you want if you make the appropriate adjustments.



I have just done my first 2 BIAB AG beers. Yay me!

My second was a SMASH (single malt and single hop) using only 5kg of TF MO + goldings for a slightly under 25L batch. I mashed at about 69 and I found it drier than expected from the hydro sample at bottling.

My Q. to you Mr Thirsty is how high would you go comfortably?

BTW BIAB rules! I am one happy apartment brewer.


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## PistolPatch

Go the apartment brewer! Well done Bizier :icon_cheers: 

Just one word of warning on this mash temperature business. Be very careful before you start playing with it. ThirstyBoy will totally agree with this advice especially as he BIABs on a smaller scale than the 23lts most Aussie BIABers are aiming for and this means there could be unseen factors totally unrelated to BIAB.

1. Check your thermometer - I have written on the inaccuracy of thermometers a heap before.
2. Stay at the recommended mash temperature for your recipes for your first few brews - Beers I have brewed alongside traditional using the same thermometer have tasted pretty much the same so beware of anecdotal reports. I actually brew towards more 62-64 degrees.
3. Understand that some styles of beer are sweeter than others - At 64 degrees, I can brew a Munich Dunkell and it will taste totally sweet(and surprisingly get a medal!) I mash a very bitter and hoppy pale ale at exactly the same temperature.

If you have an accurate thermometer, you should be looking at your recipe very carefully before altering your mash temperature. The only side by side of BIAB/traditional I am aware of that was triangularly tested by several brewers is the one I did a few years back and where only one brewer picked a difference.

Be very, very careful before you play with mash temps.

Looking forward to a beer on your balcony, Bizier!

Spot ya,
Pat


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## crundle

reviled said:


> I dont know if you would have got HSA, I have done this a few times without a negative result, in fact one of the best beers ive made was splashed about after the boil into a cube...



+1

I fill the cube directly from the tap on my urn, never used a hose and never had the cardboard taste occur. At risk of starting up the whole HSA argument, I am not concerned about HSA. Apparently it may have an effect on the stability of the beer flavour over time, but most beers are gone in 6 months at the most at my place.




Crundle


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## Bizier

PistolPatch said:


> Looking forward to a beer on your balcony, Bizier!



If I had a balcony, it would probably have a fixed brew rig on it... but you are very welcome to crack a beer at mine Pat. :icon_chickcheers:


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## Thirsty Boy

I sort of disagree and sort of agree with Pat.

I'm not suggesting, and I think that this is what Pat is trying to avoid, that everyone should rush out there and increase (or decrease) their mash temperatures by 5 or 8 degrees just because they are doing BIAB.

Equally - slavishly sticking to the temps suggested by a recipe is just plain stupid. Everybody's system, BIAB or not is different, and the mash temps they need to use to achieve a given result will be different. A recipe is given with a mash temp, because that's what works on the system of the recipe writer... it might not work on yours. Do not be afraid to change it.

In Scruffy's case, he has brewed a recipe, it has come out with less body than he wants - and he should obviously increase his mash temperatures to compensate - this would be true whether he brewed BIAB or any other way. When he re-brews that recipe, he tweaks, re-brews and maybe tweaks again and again till he gets it right.

This is what everyone does. If you notice that you need to to tweak every recipe up a couple of degrees... then maybe its a reasonable assumption to make that your system needs to run a little hotter than most and you could start to preemptively adjust your mash temps up - which is what I do when I BIAB. Its just experience.

But you don't need to be all cautious and tender footed about it - brew that recipe once, too thin, raise the mash temps! Think about a general mash temp adjustment if you start to notice a trend. But that's what I am talking about ... a trend. And two or three beers doesn't make a trend.

Oh - and I want to emphasize yet again - *mash temperature does not particularly affect the sweetness of your beer* - it affects the proportion of longer chained sugars (dextrins); and dextrins are not really sweet. Taste some malto dextrin, taste some carapils ... not sweet! You increase the final gravity, body and mouthfeel of a beer by mashing higher. NOT the actual sweetness (well not much).

If your beer is too sweet - you have a recipe issue (you used too much malt with unfermentable sweet sugars - eg crystal) or you have a fermentation issue (your yeast failed to eat the fermentable sugars you made, which _are_ sweet) The residual sugars will also increase the body and mouthfeel.

If your beer is too thick and chewy, but not all that sweet -- _then_ you have a mash temp issue. 

Or you might have both issues at once.

Bizier - assuming that everything else went to plan and you are already following Pats excellent advice about thermometers and accuracy etc etc. Mash it a degree higher next time. There is no level at which I would say "dont go any higher" because I don't know your system. If the beers are turning out too dry... then you can go higher. Period.

But - if you have go much higher than you currently are... then I suspect a problem with the way you are measuring your temperatures and would have a look at your technique. Come to think of it - two brews in, you probably have no technique to speak of. Go up a degree (for that particular beer!!) next time, but be prepared for variable results. When you have everything nailed down tightly, in 10 or 20 brews time -- then you can start to expect some consistency, till then be prepared for surprises.

TB


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## katzke

tumi2 said:


> if you read my post about how my transfer from Kettle to cube went you will know it went pear shaped due to a collapsing hose so in the end i had to pour the wort in and it splashed a great deal.. so HSA is a certainty. After reading what HSA tastes like i can tell you that wet cardboard is a pretty close description cause my beer tastes like that... very disappointed.
> 
> 
> - I now have a aeration pump so i can air my wort before pitching yeast which i didnt do.



Well you seem to be chasing a few problems.

I would guess your thermometer is off. I had that problem and solved it with a glass stick thermometer with a stainless sheath to keep me from breaking it. At the very least you should check yours against ice water, boiling water and as close to mash temp as possible. The last step is more difficult as you need a second thermometer to check against and I find the hot tap water a good source of water for the test. Just let the tap run over the thermometers and see what they read. This may solve all your problems but

Aerating the wort will help with lots of problems. I did 3 different brews the same weekend when I started. 2 came out tolerable and one was a disaster. Had thermometer problems and one brew stuck like yours did, one came out well, and one tasted terrible. Never have figured out why the one went off. I suspect it was water related and have taken steps to not repeat the disaster. I have not read anyone having similar problems so would not recommend jumping into water unless you get the same results with the second brew. Then the easy way to check is to brew a darker beer.

In your case I would check the thermometer and make sure you are pitching good healthy yeast into aerated wort.


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## crundle

I was finding my initial brews were thinner than others making the same recipe and dryer, then went and checked my glass thermometer, which was reading 102 degrees in a large pot of boiling water, and 2 degrees in a thick ice slurry. I adjusted my mash temps to compensate for this, and found that the beers were turning out much better. I now have an IKEA thermomenter and have found it to be accurate to the above two tests, so I don't have to compensate on temperatures anymore.

I would suggest checking the thermometer against the two figures you can nail down accurately, boiling water and a thick ice slurry. While you are at it, it is also prudent to measure your hydrometer against a solution of 1 litre of water at 20 degrees (or close to, as below this there is little or no compensating for temperature necessary) and 130 grams of white table sugar for a 1.050 reading, or 26 grams for a 1.010 reading.

With these two checks, you will be able to compensate for your equipment against a set recipe. More importantly, you will be able to get repeatable results, which will allow you to tweak your system far more effectively than taking guesses as to what to change.

I did this at Pat's bidding, and the results have been fantastic. I now know that my hydrometer is quite accurate, and that my new thermometer is also (so was the other, if I subtracted 2 degrees).

From there, I was able to eliminate these areas as potential variables in my process, and was able to chase down my efficiency woes to not having enough initial volume of water to extract the sugars from the grain. Now that is sorted I have been hitting all of my gravity and temp targets, and can now begin to tweak my methods to suit different beer styles. I only have 8 brews under my belt, but feel more in control than before.

Crundle


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## Bribie G

I find my probe thermometer from Ross is brilliant. Lets face it 'tweaking' the mash temps usually involves only a four or five degree range; for example I've been doing stouts and UK Best Bitters over 66 degrees (up to 68) and Aussie darks and ales at 63-64 and without an accurate thermo I wouldn't have a hope in Hell, really.


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## Scruffy

Thirsty Boy said:


> ...be prepared for surprises.



:huh: Indeed. Last brewday I made two batches, the main one turned out fine - i used sensibly combined ingredients and mashed a little low (started @ 60C for 25 minutes, rose to 65C for 20 minutes and ended on about 68C, pulled the bag, squished and boiled) and got nice but thin beer - today I'll mash a little warmer (on some good peoples advice)... However the second brew was a bit of a partial, mashed the 4kg grains too high and whacked in 1kg of dry malt, and a bit (half kilo) of extract, pitched S-04 @ 24C and it was all over by day three, it finished at 1024, I agitated the fermentor, stirred, warmed, played the violin, shouted at it... nothing - so i stuck a bit in a few bottles just to see what would occur... i re-pitched onto what was left, nothing - must have mashed that brew too high and the yeast just ate the Dry/Extract and left me a cloudy sweet soup of Dextrins!!

Better luck today I hope... Still learning. :icon_cheers:

BTW todays brew:
6kg Halcyon
.4kg Caraaroma
.4kg Carared
Some Warrior bittering
Some Styrian flavour
Some Syrian Smell, 

Aiming for 65+IBU and 1066...


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## Bribie G

scruf, what temp did you mash that partial at? I've just done something fairly equivalent, with 4kg BB Ale, choc and roast barley at 69 then after boiling and hopping, just very _slightly _tweaked it with a tin of Coopers Stout  (it's a Foreign Extra Stout for a Comp so look out on Thursday guys) and it's turned out nice and meaty.


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## Scruffy

From my note, 68C. Though first fumblings with the 60L pot and only a 6" probe on the digital thermometer - despite stirring, it still could have been different temps at different depths... :huh: 

Would that be a two day condition for the Stout!!  

And by foreign, do you mean not Australian??? h34r: 

See you Thursday! :icon_cheers:


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## Bribie G

68 should be fine, that's what I mash my yorkies at.

Foreign Extra Stout (FES) is the strong stout we poms used to send out to the colonies, prevalent in Australia, Caribbean, Nigeria etc but not generally available in the UK where they have to put up with crap like modern Guinness. Try a Coopers commercial bottled stout and you'll get the idea.


----------



## Scruffy

I was doing some work in Boonah last week (i know... h34r and was given a bottle of Carbine Stout - mildly surprised [sic] - very!!

The bottle shop also had Hop Theif!!!


----------



## Scruffy

& for everyone at work... Live Scruffcast...





And some hops...


----------



## Scruffy

And the dining chairs have gone...


----------



## .DJ.

I'm thinking about doing BIAB but wonder do I need to worry about water chemistry/pH and the like?

I will be brewing mainly ales and wheats..


----------



## Katherine

Depends on what your water is like...


----------



## .DJ.

tastes alright out of the tap.. Sydney mains water...


----------



## Katherine

.DJ. said:


> tastes alright out of the tap.. Sydney mains water...




LOL! you need to do a ph test of the water... if its to low you need to add acidulated malt or citric acid... acidulated malt if your a purist!


----------



## Bribie G

Love Sydney water. The reason for adding water salts to the mash water is to adjust the pH and add various elements such as Calcium that echo the waters of some famous brewing areas such as Burton on Trent in the UK. If you are going to be mashing UK Style Bitters add some Calcium Chloride and a bit of Epsom salts (Magnesium Sulphate) to give you some Magnesium, if you are doing Burton Style ales add some Gypsum and Epsom Salts and if mashing Australian Pale Ales like Coopers Pale or Sparkling style, add some Gypsum (Calcium Sulphate) as the style guide recommends Sulphates in the water. 

Apart from that I wouldn't bother too much but you can get a mash stabiliser called 5.2 that does the job. Quite often I forget to add the salts and still end up with nice beer. I did a mash two days ago for a Timothy Taylor Landlord tribute and completely forgot about the salts :unsure: but the wort tastes fantastic and no doubt I will get a drinkable brew.


----------



## LLoyd

Forgot I'd ordered acidulated malt once. Bit of a hurry so I just whacked in the usual amount of citric acid and mashed in.. Came out ok.


----------



## reviled

.DJ. said:


> I'm thinking about doing BIAB but wonder do I need to worry about water chemistry/pH and the like?
> 
> I will be brewing mainly ales and wheats..



IMO mash PH is quite important, I havent mucked around with water chem yet, but I got myself a PH meter to check the PH and have just been adjusting with a pinch of citric acid or gypsum.. One thing I have noticed tho, was before I bothered with PH I allways had really bad chill haze, but by bringing the PH down to 5.4-5.7 I get a much clearer beer without any finings B) 

Water chem is next on the list, but thats a tricky subject :huh:


----------



## Bribie G

No affiliation but:

Turbo charge your mash


----------



## LLoyd

Our tap water doesn't need ajusting during winter.. Any theories?


----------



## PistolPatch

Scruffcasts! Excellent! Great to see this thread getting that nice QLD touch. Should be up to 2000 posts here in a couple of weeks  

Just quickly *Scruffy*, that mashing at 60 degrees for 25 minutes will bugger you up methinks. A heap of activity is happening in that first 20 minutes. I have done similiar to you before but only kept the mash at the low end for about five minutes. These days I just set the one temp and hold it there.

*Crundle*, thanks mate for working out those sugar figures - good on you! Everyone should check their hydros at those two points. Those who do might get a huge shock. Always drag your thermometer along to a brew day if you ever go to one. It's always interesting comparing thermometers at mash temps too.

*tumi* Great to hear most things are going right and thanks for letting us know how you are travelling.

*Bizier* See you in December.

*Lloydie* No idea mate. Mine seems to stay the same from memory???

For everyone, here are some pics on how to BIAB LloydieP style - lol!

Thirsty or anyone else, what is the difference between sweet and dextrous? I don't get this. For example, if I want to brew a light beer (2.5%) I mash at 70 degrees but use the same amount of IBUs as I would if I was brewing that beer full-strength. This seems to balance things out really well.

More Scruffcasts please.


----------



## Bizier

PistolPatch said:


> *Bizier* See you in December.



Oct?

Either way, and at either end of the country, I am sure we can spin a yarn over a beer.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

.DJ. said:


> I'm thinking about doing BIAB but wonder do I need to worry about water chemistry/pH and the like?
> 
> I will be brewing mainly ales and wheats..



No you don't - if your water tastes good from the tap, you can brew with it, no adjustment required at all.

If you can taste anything off including detectable chlorine taste - then you might want to run it through a filter before you use it.

All the worrying about pH and water adjustment and all that stuff - its advanced brewing. You can make perfectly good beer without ever giving it a thought.

Yes, you _might_ make better beer once you get to the point where you pay attention to water chemistry... but, well I will put it this way. I brewed 45 batches of AG beer and had won awards before I ever measured my pH or added anything to my water.

Start brewing, make some great beer, learn how the processes go, get your sanitation, temperature control and routine down pat... then maybe think about looking at pH and water chemistry.

Oh - and absolutely *everything* you can think of - up to and including going AG in the first place - that you might do, comes after fermentation temperature control on the list of things that will improve your beer. The only thing you can do that is more important is proper sanitation.

Forget about water adjustment and pH - they are distractions for people who know just enough to be dangerous, or who are already brewing in the heavyweight division.

TB


----------



## Thirsty Boy

PistolPatch said:


> Thirsty or anyone else, what is the difference between sweet and dextrous? I don't get this. For example, if I want to brew a light beer (2.5%) I mash at 70 degrees but use the same amount of IBUs as I would if I was brewing that beer full-strength. This seems to balance things out really well.



Dextrous just means there are lots of dextrins - dextrins are not sweet.

Dextrins add body and mouthfeel to a beer by increasing its viscosity and palate weight.

Dextrins are sugars - and all sugars do the same thing - including the sweet ones. So a sweet beer will have body and mouthfeel from the sugars present.... but a beer with body and mouthfeel does not necessarily have to be sweet, because those characteristics might have come from non sweet dextrins.

If you wanted to (you almost certainly dont want to though) you could add saccharine or aspartame to your beer, both sugars that are very _very_ sweet - and that would add lots of sweetness, but because you would use so little of the stuff to get your desired sweetness, it would add virtually no body and mouthfeel. So you could have a thin and very dry beer, with lots of sweetness. They are also unfermentable.

Balance in your beer - is about a three way balance between sweetness, bitterness and mouthfeel/body. To get it you need to do more than pay attention to mash temperatures - its about yeast choice and attenuation vs the attenuation limit of the wort, choice of base malts choice of specialty malts and any adjuncts you might use.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Thirsty Boy said:


> Dextrous just means there are lots of dextrins - dextrins are not sweet.
> 
> Dextrins add body and mouthfeel to a beer by increasing its viscosity and palate weight.
> 
> Dextrins are sugars - and all sugars do the same thing - including the sweet ones. So a sweet beer will have body and mouthfeel from the sugars present.... but a beer with body and mouthfeel does not necessarily have to be sweet, because those characteristics might have come from non sweet dextrins.
> 
> If you wanted to (you almost certainly dont want to though) you could add saccharine or aspartame to your beer, both sugars that are very _very_ sweet - and that would add lots of sweetness, but because you would use so little of the stuff to get your desired sweetness, it would add virtually no body and mouthfeel. So you could have a thin and very dry beer, with lots of sweetness. They are also unfermentable.
> 
> Balance in your beer - is about a three way balance between sweetness, bitterness and mouthfeel/body. To get it you need to do more than pay attention to mash temperatures - its about yeast choice and attenuation vs the attenuation limit of the wort, choice of base malts choice of specialty malts and any adjuncts you might use.


"Balance is the art of brewing" but that comes from the "Science of brewing". 
GB


----------



## PistolPatch

Bizier: Yep, western drinks here in Oct at my place, eastern drinks in December at your place. Looking forward to both of them :beer: 

Thirsty: Thanks mate. Think I get it now. I'll have to get someone to do a line-up of a thick dextrinous beer versus a thin sweet beer so as I have a good touchstone to accompany the theory  

Nev: Go to bed - lol!


----------



## Thirsty Boy

PistolPatch said:


> Bizier: Yep, western drinks here in Oct at my place, eastern drinks in December at your place. Looking forward to both of them :beer:
> 
> Thirsty: Thanks mate. Think I get it now. I'll have to get someone to do a line-up of a thick dextrinous beer versus a thin sweet beer so as I have a good touchstone to accompany the theory
> 
> Nev: Go to bed - lol!



Two light mega beers, that way you know they are bone dry and quite thin to start with - add a table spoon of maltodextrin powder to one - one with a spoon of table sugar. That'll give you thick and sweet vs thick and not so sweet.

You want dry but sweet... try a duvel. Not "thin" (but no one wants that anyway) - certainly dry as a bone and still manages to be sweet upfront

Or drop an artificial sweetener tablet into the mega beer - it'll be nasty but you will learn something (mainly not to do it again...)


----------



## LLoyd

I thought I almost got it, with the first explanation Thirsty, but the last one loses me again.. :blink:


----------



## PistolPatch

*Please Start Posting your Volumes and Efficiency Figures Here*

Some months ago, ThirstyBoy sent me a great draft of BIAB FAQs that I had asked him to do for BIABrewer.info and of course, here on AHB. I have been re-writing, changing and worrying over them like an old woman since! Once published though, they will offer very good and detailed answers (11 A4 pages!) to very common BIAB questions.

The main problem I have been worrying over is water volumes and efficiency figures. These are big worries for those starting out so I would like to get a good average before publishing these FAQs. For those of you who do a bit of measuring, can you please start to put your details into Here"]the BIAB Brewer Register thread[/url]?

More info is in the above linked post.

I have never seen an attempt to gather such specific information from any category of brewer so it would be great to see the results as all brewers will learn something from them.

Thanking you in advance,
Pat


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Jeezus Pat - too much effort.

The new BIAB brewers -- they don't want this information. Just tell them what to do. Have you forgotten what it like to be a new brewer?? you dont want options -- you want a clear and concise set of instructions. " follow this and you will not go wrong..."

Just post the damn FAQs

New brewers will thank you - more experienced brewers will know where to look for their information anyway.

Stop ******* about and post those FAQs .. you are the guru ----- act like one dammit


----------



## troopa

Ouch TB LOL
i think its great that hes gone to so much detail
but 11 pages of information is getting to the point i think you guys should look at collaborating and publish a BIAB brew book though.. If palmers can release the bible for brewing traditionally then i think this needs to be released for modern day brewing 

Tom


----------



## troopa

Hey i do have a question about water ratios though
Ive read a few times and more then once its been answered but its usually a passing question and answer and im sure its something that thirsty is certainly answering in his new book " BIAB Brewing for the Modern Day Lazy Brewer"

Ive seen it stated that water grain ratios of about 3:1 has been gaining a little bit more efficiency but certainly hasnt been costing any (either way im not fussed)
is there any detriment to brewing with less water to allow for several benefits 

Like:
1: faster mash temps
2: faster boil times
3 Double batches in smaller pots (I have a 60L pot)

I did run my last single 23L batch at a 3:1 ratio last time and noticed that i cut nearly 1 hour of my brew day 
I did find hitting mash temps more difficult when dropping grain into the pot though(temp dropped about 6-8 degrees.. but it was also about 14degs in the shed)
and holding Mash temp was a little harder.. i usually drop about 2-3 degrees but it dropped 4. Again this could of been ambient temp

I cant offer efficiency numbers though because i broke my hydrometer which is something im not too stressed about but will be getting a refractometer before my next brew

If its been answered in great thought and detail sorry for asking and if thirsty if you have answered this in your "Book" great but if this is still up in the air or has be explored more since the last few post ive seen on it then any answers would be great 

Thanks Tom


----------



## PistolPatch

*TB*: My goodness! LOL.

New brewers treat figures written in guides as gospel and this is perfectly natural. I believe it is important to give as accurate a starting point as possible for new brewers and also to alleviate as much confusion as possible.

One example that must cause confusion is that i wrote in the original guide to start with 38 litres to achieve a 23 lt batch. This figure works well in a 70lt stock pot but I have been seeing formulas offered in this thread that suggest a much lower starting figure and this has caused problems for several brewers especially in the area of efficiency which relates in a way to Troopa's question above.

People only have to fill out a few figures in the form I linked in my post above. It won't take any time for them and I don't mind processing the figures so the only outcome I can see in doing this is better advice. (For example, I am not sure of what the correct starting volume should be for those who use keggles.)

*Troopa*: Unfortunateley knocking up a good quality book isn't that easy. The grunt work alone such as collecting accurate information takes some time. For now, I am trying to make the BIAB FAQs and a new guide compatible with Jamil and John Palmers, "Brewing Classic Styles," book. This will mean with a minimum of fuss any new brewer will be able to confidently brew using the recipes from that book. So you can look forward to that at least.

Tom, as for your question above. I think you must have read that 3:1 figure in a traditional brewing thread.

We might need a bit more info to answer your question properly as well as I am confused / unsure what you mean by faster mash temps and faster boil times etc. Do you mean making a more concentrated wort and then topping it up in the fermenter? If so, then your efficiency will suck.

To get reasonable efficiency to make any beer traditionally or via BIAB you need at some stage all your water contacting the grain. BIAB does this in one stage whilst traditional brewing does it in several stages. The end result is ALL that water ends up being heated and boiled. Any reduction in this amount of water will retard efficiency.

Using too little water can actually end up being a source of confusion for the new brewer. Efficiency drops so they think they have used too much water but in reality they haven't used enough to grab the sugars from the grain.

Does that make sense or have I missed your question completely - lol!

 
Pat


----------



## troopa

Yeah unfortunately it makes perfect sense Patch

Ok decided to go back through and re-read a couple of "BIAB water / grain ratio" threads and figured out it was mostly Reviled' posts from last year and i got my wires crossed ( http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=27704 )
Hes mashing in with less water and mashing out with hotter water

Reason for all this if you havnt already figured it out is that i have a 60L pot and want to start doing double batches as time constraints with a 1year old boy, house renos and blasted work im looking for a time saver

im happy to concede and get an 80L pot if there's no other way but id rather not and with the figures ive run i cant really see me getting a double 20L batches into a 60L pot and be able to stir the mash in at the same time 

Tom


----------



## reviled

Troopa said:


> Yeah unfortunately it makes perfect sense Patch
> 
> Ok decided to go back through and re-read a couple of "BIAB water / grain ratio" threads and figured out it was mostly Reviled' posts from last year and i got my wires crossed ( http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=27704 )
> Hes mashing in with less water and mashing out with hotter water
> 
> Reason for all this if you havnt already figured it out is that i have a 60L pot and want to start doing double batches as time constraints with a 1year old boy, house renos and blasted work im looking for a time saver
> 
> im happy to concede and get an 80L pot if there's no other way but id rather not and with the figures ive run i cant really see me getting a double 20L batches into a 60L pot and be able to stir the mash in at the same time
> 
> Tom



IMO, I reckon u can get away with double batches in a 60L pot and still get about 75% efficiency.. I only use a 30 litre pot and brew 20-22 litre batches and most of the time dont have to top up in the fermenter, allthough I have started to do a sort of a batch sparge in a seperate vessel which has given me more consistent results across different sized grain bills - where as before if I did a bigger beer and topped up in the vessel, without sparging, I would get a much lower efficiency...

edit : I have never gone as low as 3:1 ratio, but my biggest grist was 7.2kg in a 30 litre pot


----------



## Damian44

Im going to try High Gravity brewing next batch. It seems to solve a few problems.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php...Gravity_Brewing


----------



## PistolPatch

Damian44: Good link mate. The link at the bottom of that page to the BYOP article is a good read too. Make sure you put your figures into the BIAB Brewer Register  (You too reviled!)

Troopa: reviled is doing it so have a crack at this high gravity brewing. Why not? It will be interesting to see the figures from it and will be great for a lot of brewers. I have a 70lt pot but still have to top up. I often do this during the boil after it settles down and more space becomes available. Sometimes I'll just do it in the fermenter. I haven't compared efficiency figures but certainly haven't noticed any problems.

Glad I understood your question correctly.


----------



## reviled

I brewed a scotch ale yesterday with a 6kg grist in my 30 litre pot, sparged with about 7litres of water, and got an OG of 1065 and 22 litres into the fermenter, probably 23/24 if you include all the trub and wort left behind...

Pretty happy with those numbers B)


----------



## paulwolf350

I did a BIAB for my first all grain on saturday, all went pretty well but I only got an efiiciency of about 60% so wort into fermenter was a bit low 1040 compared to a 1048 expected

Any ideas on what went wrong?

Paul


----------



## Katherine

paulwolf350 said:


> I did a BIAB for my first all grain on saturday, all went pretty well but I only got an efiiciency of about 60% so wort into fermenter was a bit low 1040 compared to a 1048 expected
> 
> Any ideas on what went wrong?
> 
> Paul




Hey thats a great first effort...


----------



## paulwolf350

Katie said:


> Hey thats a great first effort...



Thanks, I am pleased with the way it all went, but my mate who crushed my grain for me gets over 75% efficiency with his mash setup

Paul


edit this may be my problem too


> Using too little water can actually end up being a source of confusion for the new brewer. Efficiency drops so they think they have used too much water but in reality they haven't used enough to grab the sugars from the grain.



I am currently using a 36L robinox pot for a 23 litre batch, after my mash I had only about 22- 23 litres which I topped up with more water that I rinsed my grain in (I thought I was low pre boil too, so i did a second rinse mash in another pot)

I am thinking I need more water in at the start so I end up with 26 litres after the mash and boil back to 23

what do you reckon


----------



## crundle

paulwolf350 said:


> Thanks, I am pleased with the way it all went, but my mate who crushed my grain for me gets over 75% efficiency with his mash setup
> 
> Paul
> 
> 
> edit this may be my problem too
> 
> 
> I am currently using a 36L robinox pot for a 23 litre batch, after my mash I had only about 22- 23 litres which I topped up with more water that I rinsed my grain in (I thought I was low pre boil too, so i did a second rinse mash in another pot)
> 
> I am thinking I need more water in at the start so I end up with 26 litres after the mash and boil back to 23
> 
> what do you reckon



To end up with 23 litres of 1.054 in the fermenter (which will give me 21 litres of finished beer to keg and bottle), I start with 33 litres of water, with about 5.8 kg of grain. I lose roughly 2 litres to the grain (squeeze like buggery with thick rubber gloves on), then boil down to 26 litres before cubing, losing about 1.5 litres to hot break. 

Even with this, I am thinking that I am a bit light on for starting water, but I am restricted by my urn being 40 litres, so about 33 + grain fills it up. I am thinking that if I could get to 38 litres of water initially, I might get better efficiency into the kettle and into the final packaging. For my first efforts, I only used 28 litres of water, and was getting woeful efficiency until PP got me to use more water to help with the extraction of sugars from the grain, and to stir more often during the mash.

If you have a 36 litre pot, you might have to settle for a slightly lower amount of water, perhaps 30-31 litres depending on the grain bill size, but get it as full as you can, it will make a difference, you may just have to boil longer/harder to get it down to the correct gravity. I take a sample of wort at the end of the mash and cool it in the freezer while the boil is starting, and then work out the final volume I am after based on that sample using beersmith.

cheers,

Crundle


----------



## PistolPatch

paulwolf350 said:


> I did a BIAB for my first all grain on saturday, all went pretty well but I only got an efiiciency of about 60% so wort into fermenter was a bit low 1040 compared to a 1048 expected
> 
> Any ideas on what went wrong?
> 
> Paul



Congratulations Paul :icon_cheers: 

There could be any number of things that went wrong and some of these might not even actually be wrong (e.g. faulty measuring equipment.) One of the silly things in brewing is that efficiency figures people talk about are not specified. Have a look at my post here and right at the bottom you will see I scored efficiencies of 83% and 53% on the same brew.

If the format of that post makes some sense to you, then post what figures you have in that thread and we can see if you have a real problem. If that format makes no sense (and this could well be the case if you are just starting in all-grain) then just post back here with how much grain you used and at what stage you took your measurements.

I think you'll find there is actually no real problem at all so relax and look forward to a great beer.

Good on you!
Pat


----------



## PistolPatch

*For Those Considering High Gravity BIAB Brewing*

Thanks Crundle for writing the details you have in Post #1238. Blokes like you that pass on such detailed, first-hand information are invaluable. I also know through my correspondence with you that I can trust your figures.

I answered a question of troopa's in this thread two days ago re low efficiency and while writing that answer I had Crundle in mind as his efficiency figures improved by using more initial water.

I was a bit surprised that the well-written articles on High Gravity Brewing linked a few posts above made no mention of efficiency adjustments. Have been thinking on this since and this afternoon I stupidly remembered that just because an article is in print, it doesn't mean it is right. The truth is that printed articles are often edited very poorly!

So, don't expect high gravity brewing to yield the same efficiency.

But, even if efficiency does drop for high gravity brewing, this is no major drama compared to the convenience. What is important, is to know how much to adjust by. So, anyone who tries this, please report your figures in the BIAB Brewer Register.

I've got my computer guy coming later in the week and so may be able to revive some old single batch stats and maybe some doubles from my old hard drive. I'll also be brewing four double-batches for the Australia's Biggest brew Day so I'll take some extra time to do as many measurements as I can.

For those of you interested in this statistical side, keep following the BIAB Brewer Register thread. What we are trying to do there is, as far as I know, a world-first so make sure you whack what figures you have in there when you can. All of us brewers will learn something from these figures, maybe even something surprising.

:beer:


----------



## katzke

paulwolf350 said:


> Thanks, I am pleased with the way it all went, but my mate who crushed my grain for me gets over 75% efficiency with his mash setup
> 
> Paul



Do they BIAB or a more traditional mash? I run my grain through the store mill 3 times to make sure all the big chunks are broken up. Why 3? Just because it worked out that way.

It also sounds like you are doing a hybrid BIAB because of your small kettle. Not saying that is a problem but it introduces more variables.

If he is a traditional masher try having your mate crush it twice and see what happens. My first brew was not as efficient as the last one so there must be a learning curve.


----------



## katzke

PistolPatch said:


> Congratulations Paul :icon_cheers:
> 
> There could be any number of things that went wrong and some of these might not even actually be wrong (e.g. faulty measuring equipment.) One of the silly things in brewing is that efficiency figures people talk about are not specified. Have a look at my post here and right at the bottom you will see I scored efficiencies of 83% and 53% on the same brew.



Mash efficiency is nice to know for formulating recipes. I do not get worried about mine verses others. The final post boil gravity is all that is important and then it only needs to be close. How close depends on the number.


----------



## PistolPatch

[Beware, this is a PP rant like you've never seen before!]

Totally agree katzke but try finding two brewers that even think that post-boil efficiency is the most standard measure of efficiency and the one that is used to (inaccurateley) describe brewhouse efficiency in computer programs.

Furthermore...

I ran a thread here about two years ago, asking why my efficiency was higher pre-boil than post-boil. Several subsidiary threads and a poll stemmed from this (and hundreds of posts.) People kept saying that pre-boil efficiency should theoretically equal post-boil efficiency. Since then, I have learned (from professional brewers) that this is actually not the case but being a newer brewer I believed (and therefore doubted myself) and that the majority of opinion on this forum must be right i.e pre-boil efficiency equals post-boil.

Looking over that last paragraph, I correct myself. I never did actually believe it because I went to great lengths at the time to triple-check my measurements using a variety of instruments and they all agreed.

There are a heap of myths around on efficiency and no evidence to back them up but they get handed on with great authority. There are a heap more brewers that use the term without specifying where they took their measurement (which makes their figure useless to other brewers) and we pass this myth/non-specification onto new brewers!

Someone here called me the guru, well if I'm going to be a guru, then let it be known I am the guru of seeing through the brewing myths of the way brewers talk about efficiency and the silly respect they give it and then hand that non-descript figure down to new brewers without bothering to explain what it really means and how it can be useful. I have never seen a new brewer educated well in what efficiency means, how truly useful it can be and how to report it to others.

For new brewers, efficiency is the most mis-leading term in the brewing language.

"Recipe," would be the most helpful.

The good and successful brewers I know don't worry about their efficiency. They know they are not doing anything obviously wrong and they brew great beer.

The only relevance efficiency can have to any brewer is to make sure that any major change they make to their brewing is not a bad one. With new BIABers, you are making a major change, you are brewing all-grain!!!!!

There are very few ways you can bugger BIAB up and if, on the off-chance, you have a problem, report it here.

I haven't seen one BIAB problem (efficiency or otherwise) that I or others have not been able to quickly solve. It doesn't get much better than that!

And, as a final word of advice, to new brewers, keep your eye out for posters here who post from practical experience. These are the ones you will learn from.

Oh, and seeing as I am the one who actually started this thread and sweated profusely over the original guides and still continue to do so, can we please keep advice from now on, where appropriate, coming from first-hand experience? I have no problem with brewing science but a lot of it lately has been totally off-topic to the original intentions I had of this thread and therefore often unhelpful to the new brewer, let alone the new BIAB Brewer. It has also often been presented with authority without one iota of home-brew, let alone BIAB, fact.

Hence my request for people to contribute their figures to the BIAB Brewer Register. Of course, they won't pass the most basic of scientific scrutiny but, if you are like me and like learning, then you'll contribute and you'll also know that the figures we get from there at least have some basis in reality.

[Scuse the rant but I think it is fair. I'm usually pretty sedate in this thread but enough is enough.]


----------



## paulwolf350

PistolPatch said:


> Congratulations Paul :icon_cheers:
> 
> 
> I think you'll find there is actually no real problem at all so relax and look forward to a great beer.
> 
> Good on you!
> Pat



yep ater reading your threads again I think you are right. I hit my pre boil target spot on @1039, corrected temp. but i second guessed it, boiled the shite out of it, then had to water it up to volume. i think my mash went fine, it was the boiling and water addition into the fermenter, that threw the figures out.

thanks, i will just have another go and see if i can nail it 

Paul


----------



## PistolPatch

Glad that made some sense Paul  Will look forward to hearing how you go second time around.

Just having a read of my rant last night  Hope at least a little bit of that made sense. Think I did a tad too much posting last night


----------



## katzke

Well I sent a PM to Pat about a brew I was mashing at the time. Will not get into specifics of that brew but wanted to add one more advantage to BIAB.

No stuck sparges.

I am trying to get rid of a sack of raw wheat my wife does not want to mill into flour. So what else but a White beer or Wit. Problem is I have no way to crack the wheat for the mash. Ended up with a goopy mess kind of like refried beans if you have ever seen them down there. I gave up on squeezing the bag as it was kind of like squeezing butter out of mashed potatoes. I was surprised that I actually got most of the liquid out when I dumped the bag. You will have to do the conversion but I had 4.5 pounds of raw wheat, 1 pound of oats (oatmeal), and 5 pounds of 2 row barley. So for those that do not want to do the math it works out to less then 50% barley and the rest sticky stuff. A traditional masher would panic with out rice hulls.

I will say the bag was slow to drain compared to an all malt mash. It was slower then an oatmeal stout I did.

And Pat, I have not posted to the registry because I am not a scientific brewer and kind of guess at my water. For me that works but for other more detail oriented people I am sure that would drive them nuts. To be honest this last brew I forgot what the marks on my mash spoon were for so I was not sure how many gallons I had in the kettle to start. I blamed the low volume on a too long boil and topped up to get a good gravity.

I followed Thurstys advice on what the grain sucks up and adjusted as I went on what I leave in the kettle and carboy. I have found that gets me close enough. I am more worried at what the gravity is in the fermentor then what the volume is. If I am off on the volume I file it away in my head and hope I remember to adjust next time.

I guess what drove me to this method is the crummy brewing software available and the need to figure water by hand. I kind of gave up when I got close. And to be honest it kind of changes every time anyway. Like this brew was very cloudy because of all the wheat and the odd milling so I got lots of trub. And some of our American brews have lots of hops and they suck up wort.

But back to my original intent, BIAB is great. I found a brew that would take extra effort to mash traditionally.


----------



## reviled

katzke said:


> Well I sent a PM to Pat about a brew I was mashing at the time. Will not get into specifics of that brew but wanted to add one more advantage to BIAB.
> 
> No stuck sparges.
> 
> I am trying to get rid of a sack of raw wheat my wife does not want to mill into flour. So what else but a White beer or Wit. Problem is I have no way to crack the wheat for the mash. Ended up with a goopy mess kind of like refried beans if you have ever seen them down there. I gave up on squeezing the bag as it was kind of like squeezing butter out of mashed potatoes. I was surprised that I actually got most of the liquid out when I dumped the bag. You will have to do the conversion but I had 4.5 pounds of raw wheat, 1 pound of oats (oatmeal), and 5 pounds of 2 row barley. So for those that do not want to do the math it works out to less then 50% barley and the rest sticky stuff. A traditional masher would panic with out rice hulls.
> 
> I will say the bag was slow to drain compared to an all malt mash. It was slower then an oatmeal stout I did.
> 
> And Pat, I have not posted to the registry because I am not a scientific brewer and kind of guess at my water. For me that works but for other more detail oriented people I am sure that would drive them nuts. To be honest this last brew I forgot what the marks on my mash spoon were for so I was not sure how many gallons I had in the kettle to start. I blamed the low volume on a too long boil and topped up to get a good gravity.
> 
> I followed Thursty's advice on what the grain sucks up and adjusted as I went on what I leave in the kettle and carboy. I have found that gets me close enough. I am more worried at what the gravity is in the fermentor then what the volume is. If I am off on the volume I file it away in my head and hope I remember to adjust next time.
> 
> I guess what drove me to this method is the crummy brewing software available and the need to figure water by hand. I kind of gave up when I got close. And to be honest it kind of changes every time anyway. Like this brew was very cloudy because of all the wheat and the odd milling so I got lots of trub. And some of our American brews have lots of hops and they suck up wort.
> 
> But back to my original intent, BIAB is great. I found a brew that would take extra effort to mash traditionally.




Same with the Roggenbier  Was like oil running off the bag, but no effort to deal with... My mate brewed a roggen trad styles and got a stuck mash :icon_cheers:


----------



## PistolPatch

katzke said:


> And Pat, I have not posted to the registry because I am not a scientific brewer and kind of guess at my water. For me that works but for other more detail oriented people I am sure that would drive them nuts.



That's no worries Tom. I think that for a lot of us, the more we brew, the less we worry about detailed measurements. Some people do none!

Congrats on the third place mate. I was pretty surprised to get a bronze over here recently for a beer I threw in to Royal Perth Beer Show. I only threw the beer in to get tickets to the exhibitors tasting. Finished up at 5am the following day! (The beer was a mid-strength Munich Dunkell brewed at a time when I had a mild infection from a min-ball valve I use on a fermenter.

Good to see you and reviled appreciate the advantages of no stuck sparges - they are a pain!

Looking forward to hearing how your Wit goes :icon_cheers:


----------



## Katherine

PP why under estimate your beer? It was a really nice beer. All your beers are! Even the so called infected GALAXY brew you did... Loved it... Still not talking to you tho! LOL!


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Off topic Pat - from your rant above you said that you had been told by professional brewers that efficiency pre- and post boil should not be the same. I would like to hear that explanation. Because, to be honest it sounds like BS to me. Don't want to have the discussion here, it would be massively OT, but I would appreciate a PM of the rationale though.

Back on Topic (or the recent one) - I will as usual disagree with you a bit about your efficiency rant.

I think a quick and reasonable calculation of efficiency (measured in the kettle pre or post boil) is a perfectly reasonable thing for a brewer to do. It doesn't have to be super accurate and people do, as you say, place far to much importance on it - but there are reasons people take that measurement.

*Is my system working comparatively well??* -- well, a BIAB system that has all the bugs ironed out of it probably gets a kettle efficiency somewhere in the high 70 percentile range for a moderate gravity beer. If yours is getting _significantly_ less than that ... fair chance there are still some bugs to iron out. _Significantly_ more... maybe the way you measure stuff has some bugs that need ironing out. Worth checking.

*Hey that beer is great, can I have the recipe?* - you need to be able to translate recipes from other sources to your system. That means either the recipe has to be given in terms of percentages of grain in the grist - OR - if weights and volumes are given, as they are in the brewing magazines, the brewing software and most of the brewing books... you need to have an idea of your system's efficiency (and all those sources usually use efficiency measured in the kettle)

*I changed this and my efficiency is averaging x% higher than before* - good change!

*I changed this and my efficiency is averaging y% lower than before* - bad change! (maybe)

*My efficiency just went through the floor.. what the hell?* - something has changed... go look for it

By simply measuring gravity and volume at pre-boil - something you should be doing anyway if you ever want to be sure that you are brewing the beer you intend to brew - you get to do all of the above stuff. Knowing your efficiency (wherever you decide to measure it) is part of knowing your brewery and knowing your brewing practice. In my opinion its something that a brewer who intends to be "good" _should_ know.

But as I said, I completely agree with Pat that many brewers place far too much importance on the actual figure they get and do silly things to try and increase it... pointless in most cases and just confuses people generally.

When you think about efficiency - think about a couple of things. Why do I need to know?? What do I need this knowledge for? What am I going to do with it? Why? - if you can answer those questions reasonably, and you should be able to - then efficiency is a useful thing for you to measure. If you cant... then refer back to Pat's rant; it is perfectly applicable to you. Oh and make sure that when you mention efficiency, or someone mentions it to you ... you know where it was measured. Or its useless to you/them at best and damaging at worst - a point where Pat and I completely agree.

TB


----------



## katzke

Thirsty Boy said:


> Back on Topic (or the recent one) - I will as usual disagree with you a bit about your efficiency rant.
> 
> 
> TB



Mostly agree with what you wrote. Just a different way of saying it.

When I was active on some American forums I kept trying to say you can not brew 5 gallons of beer by mashing with 6 gallons of water. If they can then they are doing something different then I am. With boil off, break, and yeast cake being only allowed at one gallon they could not possibly be ending up with 5 gallons. That does not include what the hops suck up or other minor losses.

So I look at others recipes only to see what they put in and what gravity they expect.

Then I put it in my brewing software, that I have gotten to understand some of its quirks, and work it out for my system. When I brew I check the pre boil gravity to see if I am close. I then hand calculate what the post boil gravity should be as my software does not do that. The efficiency figure in the software is relative as I have no idea how they calculate it.

So what I really care about is if my gravity in the fermentor is what I expect and I can make small allowances if I check my pre boil gravity. My recipes on your system will likely give different results and so on. You all have the advantage of being able to copy other BIAB recipes. All of mine are converted from traditional mashing systems and some just say to collect so much wort. That does not sound too hard to convert but read back to how some brewers are magic and can collect less then I have left after the boil.

So bottom line do I care what my efficiency is? No I am not interested in a magic number. My number is more of an estimate and final numbers are what is important. The final numbers I am interested in are volume of packaged product, IBUs, and starting and final gravities. The recipe will have how much grain , hops, and other additions. With this I can adjust the recipe to make a close copy, close enough for home brewing.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

katzke said:


> So bottom line do I care what my efficiency is? No I am not interested in a magic number. My number is more of an estimate and final numbers are what is important. The final numbers I am interested in are volume of packaged product, IBUs, and starting and final gravities. The recipe will have how much grain , hops, and other additions. With this I can adjust the recipe to make a close copy, close enough for home brewing.




But of course - efficiency is just one of the many tools in the chest that allow you to do that.


----------



## PistolPatch

TB,

I've got the flu and I certainly don't want to get into yet another email efficiency discussion with you - these can be pretty exhausting and circular! You constantly say that you disagree with me in many ways on efficiency issues but there is little we disagree on if anything. The only thing might be that you like taking your efficiency reading pre-boil because that is where the big brewers take it and that this should be identical to the efficiency post-boil. My problem is that my figures and some others don't agree with this commonly held assumption. I have for over two years now wanted to find if this common brewing assumption is also matched with actual figures.

This is yet another reason why I want to collect some figures. It is no use telling people that pre and post-boil efficiency is the same, if in reality, it isn't. So, instead of embarking on yet another theoretical debate, let's gather some figures.

I am not the only one who experiences a consistent drop in pre-boil and immediateley post-boil measurement and a read through this thread and this thread (done over 2 years ago and that you have read) will show that I do know how to measure  

Some other links....

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/giving-bre...ser-look-79829/ Check out Post#4. This guy took some careful measurements and if you read his articles linked in Post #1, he sounds as though he knows what he is talking about and has the open-mindedness to doubt his science.

http://www.byo.com/stories/wizard/article/...iency-mr-wizard This guy also nticed a drop in efficiency during the boil but was told to go and re-check his figures as they don't match the science.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=202851 MHB, who has a brewing degree and an open mind, kindly put forward a reason for the drop in this post. (Just re-reading it now and think I interpreted it in reverse two years ago - lol - makes sense now.)

Also in that thread, you offered to do some testing as follows...



Thirsty Boy said:


> Pat,
> 
> Next time I brew my house ale, I'll make the batch a bit bigger so I have 4 litres of AG wort with which to conduct as tightly controlled an experiment as I can. I will heat it to nearly 100C and tap it off into a small no-chill. After I have finished my regular brew day, I'll geek out on the 4 litres.
> 
> -Everything calibrated from the same schot duran measuring cylinder.
> 
> -All volumes taken at the same temperature and measured by fully decanting the whole kettle into the measuring container
> 
> -All gravity samples taken to my work and run through the serious arsed desktop density meter
> 
> I still doubt if I'll be able to get any better than +/- a couple of percent, but I will do my best.
> 
> I will also go talk to the guy who runs our lab brewery (mate, I drool when I see that lab brewery, it is every hombrewers wet dream made real) and find out whether dissapearing extract is possible in his view. His whole job is to conduct mashes, boils and fermentations to 3 decimal places in accuracy and consistency. If it happens, he'll know about it and be able to tell us how to calculate it.



Doing the above would be something constructive.

As for any further debate, I'm happy to do it but only with people who take the trouble to provide me with their own figures. I have done the theoretical arguments to death  

I'm going back to my flu!

Spot,
Pat


----------



## Thirsty Boy

PistolPatch said:


> TB,
> 
> I've got the flu and I certainly don't want to get into yet another email efficiency discussion with you - these can be pretty exhausting and circular! You constantly say that you disagree with me in many ways on efficiency issues but there is little we disagree on if anything. The only thing might be that you like taking your efficiency reading pre-boil because that is where the big brewers take it and that this should be identical to the efficiency post-boil. My problem is that my figures and some others don't agree with this commonly held assumption. I have for over two years now wanted to find if this common brewing assumption is also matched with actual figures.
> 
> This is yet another reason why I want to collect some figures. It is no use telling people that pre and post-boil efficiency is the same, if in reality, it isn't. So, instead of embarking on yet another theoretical debate, let's gather some figures.
> 
> I am not the only one who experiences a consistent drop in pre-boil and immediateley post-boil measurement and a read through this thread and this thread (done over 2 years ago and that you have read) will show that I do know how to measure
> 
> Some other links....
> 
> http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/giving-bre...ser-look-79829/ Check out Post#4. This guy took some careful measurements and if you read his articles linked in Post #1, he sounds as though he knows what he is talking about and has the open-mindedness to doubt his science.
> 
> http://www.byo.com/stories/wizard/article/...iency-mr-wizard This guy also nticed a drop in efficiency during the boil but was told to go and re-check his figures as they don't match the science.
> 
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=202851 MHB, who has a brewing degree and an open mind, kindly put forward a reason for the drop in this post. (Just re-reading it now and think I interpreted it in reverse two years ago - lol - makes sense now.)
> 
> Also in that thread, you offered to do some testing as follows...
> 
> 
> 
> Doing the above would be something constructive.
> 
> As for any further debate, I'm happy to do it but only with people who take the trouble to provide me with their own figures. I have done the theoretical arguments to death
> 
> I'm going back to my flu!
> 
> Spot,
> Pat



But see Pat - I don't need to - because my figures match nicely. As do the figures of most homebrewers. You say its a commonly held assumption - but its actually the common _observation_. I don't do _anything_ because its what the big brewers do Pat - I do things because they make sense to me and I have observed that they work.

MHB's suggestion is not only a reasonable explanation - it is the likely explanation and always was.

If you measure your pre-boil at the wrong time. If on the other hand you measure pre-boil where and when you should - then it is my experience that there is no mysterious missing sugar and reality meshes up nicely with theory.

I asked for your rationale after you said you had information from professional brewers to support your argument - I thought it would be something new, I thought I might learn something; and I thought that that something might even change my mind. But it seems its not, its just the same stuff as before - and as far as i am concerned you have had sufficient explanation for the effect you are observing. You were given it all that time ago - by MHB. So this is nothing new, its just beating a horse thats been dead for a couple if years now.

You don't want to debate theory? - sick of theory? - fair enough. That doesn't mean I'm going to hesitate for even one second to point it out if I think you are wrong about something - and give a nice description of the _theory_ behind why it is I think you are wrong. And I will do exactly the same when I think you are right and someone else says you are wrong.

Thats one of the troubles with being a guru - every now and again someone will come along and ask _why_ it is you need all the gold Rolls Royces to do the holy work ... it can be handy to have a nice confusing theoretical answer to back you up. 

TB


----------



## katzke

Short answer. Sugar in = sugar out.

Specific gravity is defined as the ratio of the density of a liquid compared to the density of pure water.

So pre boil gravity can be different then post boil gravity because we get break material that removes some of the solids from the wort. Because sugar in = sugar out the efficiency is not changing. It is the way we estimate the sugar that causes any problems.


----------



## bill_gill85

After getting through a few kits, I've decided to take the plunge into all grain & BIAB. A major issue is that I'm limited to a 19L pot. I don't mind brewing a small batch to start, but would like to get the best use I could from a 19L vessel & thought that a LC Rogers clone would be the way to go, making a higher gravity wort & topping up in the fermentor. Not overly interested in efficiency for this first attempt, mainly interested in brewing a good beer. Could anyone please comment on the suitability of attempting a Rogers clone & suggest a recipe & starting volume for a 19L pot.

Many Thanks

Ben


----------



## PistolPatch

Thirsty Boy said:


> Thats one of the troubles with being a guru - every now and again someone will come along and ask _why_ it is you need all the gold Rolls Royces to do the holy work ... it can be handy to have a nice confusing theoretical answer to back you up.
> 
> TB



This is why I find these theoretical discussions without any figures to back them up not very rewarding. I have questioned a commonly accepted premise as my figures don't agree. A read of the threads I linked above show that I have an open mind to the answer and am still very willing to explore it. When the guru comments start coming back, rather than figures or logic, that is usually a good sign that I am onto something  

You have certainly provided a nice, confusing, theoretical argument in this case. Firstly, you say that pre and post boil efficiencies will be the same and anything else sounds like BS. I gave you a couple of links and now you are saying, "Oh but pre-boil measurements shouldn't be taken pre-boil, they should be taken after the hot break, which is anything up to 15 minutes after the start of the boil." I have never heard of anyone taking a pre-boil measurement after the hot break and I have never had you tell me that you take it after the hot break.

MHB's answer was a sensible answer to the question but my discrepancy was higher than the 3% that this explained.

Let's just approach this with an open mind. Let's see if the figures that others are kindly and helpfully providing here show whether this a consistent problem or an erratic one. If it is consistent, then we can put a number on it. If it is inconsistent then we will remain bewildered.

Now stop being naughty Dan and help billgill with his problem above. You've done 14 mini-BIABs so I reckon you will set him on the right path.


----------



## PistolPatch

billgill said:


> After getting through a few kits, I've decided to take the plunge into all grain & BIAB. A major issue is that I'm limited to a 19L pot. I don't mind brewing a small batch to start, but would like to get the best use I could from a 19L vessel & thought that a LC Rogers clone would be the way to go, making a higher gravity wort & topping up in the fermentor. Not overly interested in efficiency for this first attempt, mainly interested in brewing a good beer. Could anyone please comment on the suitability of attempting a Rogers clone & suggest a recipe & starting volume for a 19L pot.
> 
> Many Thanks
> 
> Ben



Hopefully ThirstyBoy will help you out here Ben. I did find a recipe though that a lot of the ISB guys were pleased with. You'll want to mash this at the higher end of the range so make sure you have an accurate thermometer. Here it is and we'll look forward to hearing how you go...

Size: 21.0 L
Efficiency: 75.0%
Attenuation: 75.0%

Ingredients:
3.4 kg Traditional Ale Malt
0.07 kg Crystal Malt
0.07 kg Dark Crystal
0.05 kg Pale Chocolate Malt
0.05 kg Chocolate Wheat Malt
37.0 g East Kent Goldings (5.0%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
45 g Cascade (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 1 min
1 ea White Labs WLP001 California Ale

Notes:
Mash at 69-70C for a fuller mouthfeel for such a light beer


----------



## Thirsty Boy

PistolPatch said:


> This is why I find these theoretical discussions without any figures to back them up not very rewarding. I have questioned a commonly accepted premise as my figures don't agree. A read of the threads I linked above show that I have an open mind to the answer and am still very willing to explore it. When the guru comments start coming back, rather than figures or logic, that is usually a good sign that I am onto something
> 
> You have certainly provided a nice, confusing, theoretical argument in this case. Firstly, you say that pre and post boil efficiencies will be the same and anything else sounds like BS. I gave you a couple of links and now you are saying, "Oh but pre-boil measurements shouldn't be taken pre-boil, they should be taken after the hot break, which is anything up to 15 minutes after the start of the boil." I have never heard of anyone taking a pre-boil measurement after the hot break and I have never had you tell me that you take it after the hot break.
> 
> MHB's answer was a sensible answer to the question but my discrepancy was higher than the 3% that this explained.
> 
> Let's just approach this with an open mind. Let's see if the figures that others are kindly and helpfully providing here show whether this a consistent problem or an erratic one. If it is consistent, then we can put a number on it. If it is inconsistent then we will remain bewildered.
> 
> Now stop being naughty Dan and help billgill with his problem above. You've done 14 mini-BIABs so I reckon you will set him on the right path.



But I didn't say that to you Pat - I said it to someone else. And If you had read the private message that wasn't actually sent to you more carefully, you would have noted that I specified that the majority of the hot break actually happens before the wort even comes to the boil. As far as I was aware... everybody took their pre-boil measurements after the hot break, thats when you are supposed to.

It doesn't matter anyway - I have never said you should take a pre-boil measurement for efficiency - I have said that you should take your efficiency reading "in the kettle" it just so happens that pre-boil is the most sensible place to take it, because you should be taking a pre-boil measurement anyway, to find out if you need to make adjustments to your planned boil scheme. And if you do need to make adjustments (such as adding sugar or dme) then your post boil figures will be meaningless... therefore if you develop a habit of taking pre-boil, you will always be taking the same measurement that means the same thing and requires the least adjustment to reflect how well you conducted your mash and lauter. The _assumption_ is - that preboil and post boil figures will be the same, so it doesn't matter where you take it.... so take it at the point that makes the most sense for your process. It so happens that in my case, that assumption is true. If its not true for you ... just take the reading twice. Hell, I measure volume and/or gravity at least three and usually 4 times during any given boil.

Oh - and I have done considerably more than 14 mini BIAB brews Pat.. I just stopped updating the database. I have done a number of full sized brews and some double batches as well. So I'm afraid you aren't able to discount my point of view because I don't have enough experience. Oh and boiling... in case you forgot, that happens in non-biab brewing as well and I have something more than 100 of those sorts of brews.

I have to go - If no one helps Billgill before tonight, I will.

Then I will think up a few more ways to have a go at you --- so there

TB


----------



## PistolPatch

LOL!

You silly boy, I wasn't trying to discount your experience. I think you have done more mini-BIAB's than anyone and so will be the best person to help him out. I'm sure he can look forward to a good answer tonight.

Spot :icon_cheers:


----------



## crundle

billgill said:


> After getting through a few kits, I've decided to take the plunge into all grain & BIAB. A major issue is that I'm limited to a 19L pot. I don't mind brewing a small batch to start, but would like to get the best use I could from a 19L vessel & thought that a LC Rogers clone would be the way to go, making a higher gravity wort & topping up in the fermentor. Not overly interested in efficiency for this first attempt, mainly interested in brewing a good beer. Could anyone please comment on the suitability of attempting a Rogers clone & suggest a recipe & starting volume for a 19L pot.
> 
> Many Thanks
> 
> Ben



I haven't done any mini BIAB batches, but will try to help if I can. I am assuming that you want to do a full BIAB batch, and not a partial BIAB topped up with extract (but I could be wrong in that assumption).

What size batch are you hoping to achieve from a 19 litre pot? Personally I use a 40 litre urn, and end up with 21 litres of 5.5% alc/vol beer in the keg/bottles given a fairly standard grain bill of about 5.5 kgs. This fills the urn up to the brim when I add the grain, as I use 35 litres of water initially.

Extrapolating this to a 19 litre pot - you would need to add 16.6 litres of water initially, and have a grain bill of about 2.6 kgs total, which would yield you about 10 litres of 5.5% finished beer in the keg/bottles.

Once again, this is based on my system, and allows for a good squeeze of the bag for extraction of sugars, and dumping the cold break from a no chill cube into the fermenter and crash chilling it to help it condense down.

If you are trying to make a higher gravity wort, then you may experience some issues with reduced efficiency, meaning that if your system gave you an efficiency of 70% at say a 1.050 gravity wort, then you may find that in trying to make a 1.070 wort to compensate for a reduced mash volume, you may find the efficiency drops to around 60-65%. This means you may have to compensate for the reduced efficiency by using more grain, which means having less water in your pot to mash with - which has a definite effect on your ability to hit your target gravities (personal experience in this department).

Having said all this, I have not done a mini BIAB mash, whilst Thirsty has done many, so hopefully he will be able to give you some information that will overcome a lot of the negatives that I think could occur in trying to overcome the limitations inherent in a small volume pot.

Hope it all works out well, and I might learn something further about BIAB,

Crundle


----------



## bill_gill85

PP - Thanks for the recipe, I've attempted to scale it to 16 L in beersmith, however I couldn't find Traditional Ale malt listed, so substituted Pale malt, but will be using Traditional Ale malt though. I've attached the bsm file if anyone would like to check it over.

Regarding thermometers, I have a digital stick thermometer that is accurate at 0 C & 100 C, but have not been able to check at mashing temperatures. How likely is a digital thermometer to be inaccurate if it passes these tests?

Crundle - You are correct in assuming that I was intending a mini 100% BIAB, with no extract into the fermentor. This should be going into my 9L party keg & hopefully a couple of bottles for long term ageing, so a fermented volume of 12L would be nice. As far as a "high gravity", what I was referring to was that Rogers, having a lower ABV% I was hoping to dilute into the fermentor to achieve a reasonable volume of a 3.8% beer. I think this first time around I'll just have a go at the recipe & not worry about diluting

TB - Looking forward to hearing from the guru of "mini BIAB"

Thanks

Ben 

View attachment Rogers_16L.bsm


----------



## PistolPatch

Looks like crundle has given you a great place to start from. It's also great to hear you have already calibrated your thermometer. I imagine digital thermometers have less "wandering" capability between 0 and 100 so you'll probably be fine there. Also, using the Pale Malt instead of Traditional will certainly be close enough. TB might have some improvements to that recipe and the best batch size to use - I think one of the guys where the recipe came from said it was a tad too chocolatey. You are doing well so far though :icon_cheers: 

One thing that might help you to get a larger volume is if you have a second big saucepan. What I'm thinking is that after your mash, you could dump your bag into this second saucepan and sprinkle around 4lts of just boiled water from your kitchen jug over the top of the bag. Jiggle the bag around for ten minutes and then lift it out. This will give you another 4lts of decent gravity wort which you could add to the boil assuming there is enough room. (Using boiling water should not cause any problems - the temp drops very quickly if sprinkled.)

Be nice to see you get your keg full. I'll be really interested to follow this one.

Cheers
Pat


----------



## Thirsty Boy

You watch me make Pat mad now ....

I have done a fair few mini BIABs - but I have only a couple of times tried to extend the volume and try to get a finished volume that was more "standard" my mini BIABs are for mini finished volumes.

It is my belief that if you dont want to invest in an appropriately sized pot -- but you do want to brew full sized batches. Then BIAB is not for you.

By the time you much about trying to brew high gravity, getting lousy BIAB efficiency, heating sparge water in extra pots etc etc etc .. I think you could have made and used a nice little braid and eski mash tun - which is more appropriate for high gravity brewing. You can make HG biab brews and dilute them down... but trying to squeeze a full sized batch out of a pot that is realistically half the size you need.... its a big ask and by the time you have jumped through all the hoops and made all the compromises required, you will have tossed out all the good things about BIAB and just kept the bad ones.

You could using a "standard" edition of a different style of brewing, rather than a bastardised version of BIAB.

So thats what I suggest - you build a mash tun out of a cheap 20L eski - and then with a bucket and your kettle you should be able to brew mildly high gravity brews and dilute to 20 odd litres fermenter volume.

If you are happy to accpt a smaller finished volume, then it really is just a matter of scaling down. Crundle has given you the ball park figures - I will try to get you the largest volume you can squeeze out of your pot without deviating from "stock" biab.

I will use the recipe that Pat gave you and scale it. [Pat - you are a scoundrel... 75% efficiency... measured where and how? Not following your own rules buddy boy. And I will assume that 21L is the post boil kettle volume, hot - which gives me an anticipated OG of 1.040]

Scaling down - I make it that the biggest batch you can realistically make at this OG is 13.0L. For a 13L post boil volume you need to a total amount of water of ..

Pre-boil of 15.3L (evaporation rate of 15%) + 1.13L (absorbed by grain) = 16.5

When you add 16.5L of water to the pot along with the 2.25kg of grain that makes up your scaled down grain bill - it will have a volume of 18L and fit in your pot.

So you can make 13L of this beer or beer of this strength (1.040) or less stronger beer or a little more weaker beer, by using stock standard no mucking about BIAB.

If you want to play with the various forms of sparging, you will get more volume - if you want to combine that with high gravity brewing you can maybe get a "full" volume out of it..... maybe. But its more trouble than its worth in my book.

Personally - I would just brew big partials. Make 13L using the stock method - include all the specialty malts, then make up a high gravity wort for dilution by adding DME. It will make fine beer and you dont need to muck about or build a mash tun.

Sorry to be depressing about it -- but BIAB needs a big pot to be done easily, and you have a small pot.

TB


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## PistolPatch

Yep, unfortunateley the original source had no OG reading in their recipe so it is impossible to tell what they meant by batch size and brewhouse efficiency. The best I could do was just copy and paste it. From that source, I can only guess that by batch size they mean volume in the kettle immediately after the boil and by Brewhouse Efficiency, they use Beersmith's definition which is volume and gravity at the end of the boil.

I'll have a crack at converting the original recipe for Ben using Thirsty and Crundle's advice. I'll assume just a 60 minute boil for this one. (I'm going to use BeerAlchemy for the first time so look out  )

Batch Size = 13lts (15.3lts less 15% evaporation over 60 mins)
Kettle and Fermenter Trub = 2.5lts (a high but safe base figure of 15% of starting water - 10%kettle and 5% fermenter)
Brew Length (Lts into your Keg)34 = 10.5lts (13lts - 2.5lts)

Efficiency: 75.0%
Attenuation: 75.0%

Ingredients:
2108 g Traditional Ale Malt
43 g Crystal Malt
43 g Dark Crystal
31 g Pale Chocolate Malt
31 1g Chocolate Wheat Malt
23 g East Kent Goldings (5.0%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
28 g Cascade (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 1 min
1 ea White Labs WLP001 California Ale

The above should give you a beer a bit less than 4% ABV.

Notes:
Mash at 69-70C for a fuller mouthfeel for such a light beer and do so for 90 minutes.

*Further Notes*

1. I am not 100% sure that this beer will be like a Rogers. It came linked to a Rogers thread though.
2. You could use dried yeast such as US-05
3. You could use the same volume figures as given by Thirsty but use ingredients you came up with that you based on a batch size of 16lts. This will give you a higher gravity wort that you can measure at the end of the boil and then dilute accordingly.

Finally, don't get too attached to this recipe. Most full-strength beer recipes can easily be converted to mid-strength by upping the mash temperature to the high end and using the same amount of hops as the full-strength recipe. There are further ways to do this but this formula has always worked well for me. NRB All Amarillo Ale is such a recipe and the ingredients are simpler than the above. I don't know anyone who doesn't enjoy that beer.

So, if you want to brew a different kind of beer, then do so. :icon_cheers:


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## crundle

It seems like the 19 litre pot is only going to be good for making half batches with BIAB, so while it will be a good place to start your journey with AG brewing, you will likely soon find that a larger pot of at least 40 litres will be a worthwhile investment.

If you can source a 50 litre keg to use as a pot, and get a 2400W immersion element (around $85 delivered), you will be set for making full strength/volume batches for a very low outlay.

let us know how your first batch goes - you will be impressed I am sure,

Crundle


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## Pollux

crundle said:


> get a 2400W immersion element (around $85 delivered),



Got a source at that price? You do mean a handheld element right? I'm looking for one to supplement the element on my crown urn during the boil.


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## Thirsty Boy

makes sense really - a fair bit of thought and experience has lead us to the conclusion that the smallest really useful BIAB pot for full batches is around 35-40L) ergo the use of 40L urns ... half that size pot is going to make you half a full batch of beer

Mind you - I suggested that you make partials... and I think a partial that was 50%+ grain based would be a perfectly fine beer and basically indistinguishable from AG. The grain portion via BIAB and your volume from a DME addition will make great beer and probably be the easiest option short of a bigger pot.


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## bill_gill85

Thanks everyone for the all the assistance. 

My main reasoning for using a 19 L pot for the time being is that I could pick a "stainless" induction compatible one up for $12 at Big W. Unfortunately as a uni student, I can't afford to buy a decent pot or an urn right now. Once the bug bites & I'm happy with the results I'm getting, I'll be upgrading to a better system. At the moment the 19L pot is my "pilot" brewery so to speak.

I'm still trying to source the ingredients under the names listed using the EBC's listed in beersmith as a guide. I can't seem to find anyone selling Crystal malt with an EBC of 19 - 20, would this be similar to Carahell?

I probably won't get this brewed until later this week, but I'll keep you all informed.


Thanks,

Ben


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## PistolPatch

I'll send you a PM Ben and you can ask Stuster what the correct recipe is. He's a top bloke and will sort you out.


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## crundle

Pollux said:


> Got a source at that price? You do mean a handheld element right? I'm looking for one to supplement the element on my crown urn during the boil.



Sorry I took a while getting back Pollux,

After contacting Tobins directly, I got mine from NESCO Electrical - 1300 852 411

It cost me $82.50 including delivery, and works a treat. I got the Grimwood 4108B. As we are using it for BIAB, we shouldn't have the issues that others have had of having to move it constantly at risk of burning the mash.

I got mine for the same purpose, to supplement the rather lackluster boil on the Crown during winter especially. I also put a camping mat around the Crown, and plugged in the immersion element, and wow - it was a vigorous boil alright! I ended up having to unplug the immersion element for the first 20 minutes or it was going to froth over. It is interesting that with the camping mat around the urn, it actually kept up a fairly good boil as opposed to how it was normally, but it was a much warmer day when I brewed than the last time, where I had to supplement the boil in a couple of good sized pots on the stove to get the volume I needed.

Great item, I wonder how I brewed before I got it.

Crundle


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## matho

just want to say thanks thristy just finished doing a brew (3 vessel system) and your advice on taking preboil reading after the break made for consistent efficency readings through the boil 

cheers matho


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## drtomc

Thirsty Boy said:


> makes sense really - a fair bit of thought and experience has lead us to the conclusion that the smallest really useful BIAB pot for full batches is around 35-40L) ergo the use of 40L urns ... half that size pot is going to make you half a full batch of beer
> 
> Mind you - I suggested that you make partials... and I think a partial that was 50%+ grain based would be a perfectly fine beer and basically indistinguishable from AG. The grain portion via BIAB and your volume from a DME addition will make great beer and probably be the easiest option short of a bigger pot.



That does sound like the go.

Unlike TB, who bases his observations on real experience, I'll use my status as a professional academic to make an observation on no real experience to speak of.  I have done lots of kits, no partials, and only a few BIABs, though I have read quite a bit.

The consensus seems to be that DME is relatively high in non-fermentable sugars, so you may need to take that into consideration for the AG portion or you may end up with a higher FG than you want. And probably don't be too scared to use a portion of sugar, if you want to boost the %abv without making the resulting beer too chewy. Works a treat for the Belgians.

T. (inclined to post so his fingers don't cease up)


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## Thirsty Boy

Glad to be of service Matho. So long as your brew day is making a bit more sense to you now.

While we are momentarily back on this topic (sub topic I suppose) I did the experiment Pat said he'd like to see the results of.

*The Method* was

*I took 2ish litres of 100% BB pale malt wort @ 12.67 plato to experiment with. The wort was straight from the lauter grant and the highest temperature it had ever seen was 76C
*I put this wort into a 2L erlenmyer flask and brought it up to the boil - let it boil till I saw distinct hot break formation (2-4mins) then turned off the flame
*I adjusted the volume to exactly 2L by sucking out the excess, set the timer for 90min and put it back on to boil. 
*Filled a test tube with the pre-boil wort to take to work and analyse.
*Boiled the wort for 90mins - then with the flame off, added boiling water from my kettle, till the volume was exactly 2L again, mixed thoroughly and took another tubes worth of sample.

*The rationale* is that with the pre and post boil volume both being exactly 2L .. any loss of of gravity in the wort over the boil would be immediately apparent.

Accuracy and error -- I flatter myself to think that I was able to tell the difference between adding or subtracting 10ml from the erlenmyer flask when it was on the 2L mark. So my volumes would be +/-10ml. Now I had to read those volumes twice during the experiment so that doubles the error to a potential 20ml or 1%. We will keep thing simple and say that the gravity measurements are error free because I am using a pro- density meter that we will just assume is right.

Samples went to work with me next day and each sample was filtered to remove hot/cold break and run through the density meter three times with the intention of averaging the results to iron out variation. As it was, in both cases the DM returned three identical values for each repetition on each sample. So I'm calling it consistent.

*Results*

Pre-Boil Sample: 12.99 plato
Post-Boil Sample: 12.83 plato

a difference of 0.16 plato or around 1.0064 in SG - 1.23% of the original 12.99 gravity.

*Conclusions --* 

Not many really. The was a small drop in gravity, but it was pretty close to the error threshold of the experiment. error at 1% and the variance at 1.23% leaves 0.23% variance that could be considered significant.

I observed that the break, while it had developed at the start of the boil to a noticeable degree - certainly increased over the boil. I propose that the 0.23% significant variance and even the 1.23% raw variance could be explained by the further precipitation of hot break. Leaving effectively no unaccountable variance between the pre and post boil gravities - and therefore no variance in the any efficiency figures that could be derived from the kettle volumes and gravities.

But thats just my possibly skewed interpretation -- yours might be different.

TB


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## PistolPatch

Doesn't seem anything wrong with that design mate. Thanks for doing that :super:

It's still an area I am very much looking forward to getting more raw data on. Already in the figures we have collected there are several people getting that 10% drop pre and post-boil (around 85% then down to 75%).

We have been taking measurements pre-boil. Seeing as everyone who has seen me brew or I have seen brew, if they take a measurement, takes it at the immediate start of the boil, I did further investigation on the weekend and the guys I spooke to had never heard of taking the pre-boil measurement after the break. Even Gregory Noonan in New Brewing Lagers is taking it then so we are not the only ones, thank God.

I suspect that this break thing isn't going to give us the complete answer - probably only about a third of it if the figures I recorded in this post here a few years back are any indication. Unfortunateley it is only based on one brew but shows that the drop I was getting was linear throughout the boil.

Anyway, maybe we'll solve the mystery but if the figures keep coming up the same, I'll be using the 75% post-boil figure rather than the 85% pre-boil one when I quote efficiency.

I'm going to do 4 single batches in a few weeks so I'll do some measurements at various times throughout the boil as a matter of interest.

Crazy stuff :wacko: 

P.S. Matho: Can you remember what variance you were getting pre and post-boil on your three vessel system? Would be great to know that. And please let us know if you get the same results over the next 5 brews or so if you can take the time :icon_cheers:


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## Thirsty Boy

I dunno Pat - most of the stuff I read when I first started brewing (books, forums, websites etc etc) lead me to conclude that the safe and sure way to conduct a boil -- was to bring the kettle up to a boil, wait for the hot break (ie the the scum forms, froths then settles back down), turn off your heat, drop in your 60min hops, turn your heat back on and start your timer.

This gave you - 

-well mixed wort from the mixing of the boiling action, so no false gravity readings from density layering
-less chance of a boilover when you toss in the hops
-better utilisation of your hops because not so many alpha acids stick to the break when it forms
-better accuracy on your gravity readings because much of the break has happened already

For me - the phrase "pre-boil" never had anything to do with that actual wort being at a boil.. it had to do with it being "pre" the start of your boil timer.

I honestly thought that that was the common understanding and that much variation from that regime was conscious shortcutting

such is life - at any rate, thats the way I suggest people take a pre-boil if they are going to take one. Well... those of use who don't have the magic disappearing extract anyway

TB


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## Scruffy

TB, this tiny fraction of measuring anomaly, did you adjust for the difference in volume due to temperature along the lines: change in volume=(coefficient of volume expansion)(initial volume)(change in temperature) or ΔV = V0βΔT

Layman's: from 0C - 100C you would see a 4% change in volume...

No, OK, I'll get me coat...


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## matho

pp,

it had been in the range of about 10% which had me looking at my losses, today the difference was 1.040 in 30l taken after the hot break (took the sample in a flask and chilled it down, then poured it into the sample tube leaving the break behind) and 1.045 in 26l (24l in the fermenter 2l loss) which is 77.9% "pre boil" and 75.4% in the fermenter.

thristy, in pp defence i have three brewing books in the two that mention extract efficency (how to brew, new brewing lager) they both say to take gravity reading after the lauter has finished.

any way this has taken some of the WTF out of my brewday next time i do a brew i hope ill have more time(look after little kids today as well) so that i can take the "real pre boil" reading as well.

cheers matho.


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## PistolPatch

Thanks a heap matho for those figures. It's great to get reinforcement that the discrepancy isn't just a BIAB thingo. I'll ask the brewers who have been supplying figures to see if they can take a few extra measurements at varying stages of the boil. It'takes a bit of stuffing around unfortunateley but it is always good fun solving a mystery. This one has had me scratching my head for a long time. I reckon after we get the measurements from 10-15 brews, we'll know if this is going to solve the problem so please keep us informed of how your brews go matho.

Fingers crossed and thanks again :icon_cheers:


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## katzke

matho said:


> pp,
> 
> it had been in the range of about 10% which had me looking at my losses, today the difference was 1.040 in 30l taken after the hot break (took the sample in a flask and chilled it down, then poured it into the sample tube leaving the break behind) and 1.045 in 26l (24l in the fermenter 2l loss) which is 77.9% "pre boil" and 75.4% in the fermenter.



OK so 30L and 1.040 is 1200 gravity points. 26L and 1045 is 1170 gravity points. A difference of 30 points in either 30L or 26L is not big deal as we are talking 1.001 difference in the 30L. I sure could not tell you if my gravity was accurate to 1.001 points using a glass hydrometer with 1.002 markings. Then the measuring of the hot wort in the kettle is a problem and that alone could account for such a small difference. It could be the people that have recorded a 10% difference had all the possible errors add up against them. Or they could be judging volume in the kettle at different temperatures or even during the boil.

Brewing is a very complicated chemical reaction. Who knows if break has an attraction to sugar? Did you use hop pellets or flowers? I have no idea but it could be that the hops have an osmotic reaction and suck up some extra sugar. We have so many different efficiencies in brewing. I am only concerned with how much sugar I get out of my grain and how much wort I put in the fermentor at my target gravity.


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## PistolPatch

Morning katzke,

All these things have been covered very thoroughly in those thread links I provided three or four days ago. We better not get into that here, otherwise we will be just repeating the hundreds of posts there.  

For me, the point of all this here is just to find out the best figures to quote for guys starting out and the safest place for them to take their measurements so they don't take a year or so of confusion to discover this for themselves. Be nice to see new brewers getting on track very early.

Cheers,
Pat

P.S. You are correct on the hops absorbing sugar. I have only seen a figure on this once and can't remember what it was now. I think it was given in some weird measure per hectolitre. From memory though it didn't solve the problem unfortunateley.


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## katzke

PistolPatch said:


> Morning katzke,
> 
> All these things have been covered very thoroughly in those thread links I provided three or four days ago. We better not get into that here, otherwise we will be just repeating the hundreds of posts there.
> 
> For me, the point of all this here is just to find out the best figures to quote for guys starting out and the safest place for them to take their measurements so they don't take a year or so of confusion to discover this for themselves. Be nice to see new brewers getting on track very early.



Well I guess you want to be technical. Me I just want to make beer.

I measure after the bag is out. I then can find out how my mash went. If I waited until the boil started then turned off the heat to get a volume measurement and then waited for the sample to cool I think I would give it up and go back to extract. The reason I do it this way is simple. If my gravity is low I boil longer to get it up to where I expect to start out at. I can then do my hop schedule as normal and at the end of the boil my gravity will be close to what I want. If my gravity is high I know I will be ok as I can add water at the end or just have a stronger beer. Once I get a better handle on my system I will have to do this less but I know enough now to not even have to check the gravity after boiling for a while because I know about how much water I boil off. 

No surprises this way when I check starting gravity as it goes in the fermentor. I know if I need to make any adjustments to the recipe for next time. 

When I started I was worried about making so much beer. Now I am not worried about the amount as much as I am in getting the gravity correct. I also know that getting a nuts on accurate volume with a dip stick is not possible with out putting more effort into calibrating it to a smaller increment (Maybe you can measure the amount or wort in your kettle down to the half liter). I also know it would not be worth the effort because I am only guessing at what line the hydrometer sample is at. Maybe some of you are better at guessing if it is 1.040 or 1.039, or 10.41. Then the little bubbles and the thing deciding to get stuck to the side of the sample tube, or it stops spinning and the scale I want is on the back side. No matter how I try and move the tube it always spins around.

So I guess if you need to teach people to BIAB and be that technical about when to take a sample then you need to tell us how to be able to read a hydrometer down to .001. Cause with mine marked at .002 increments and how the sample curves as it leaves the side of the sample tube and touches the hydrometer I am lucky to get it to .002 or so depending on where the levels looks like it is resting at. Then I am distracted by all that goes on when I brew and not even considering if I am sampling the fruits of my last brew.

It is home brewing and it is supposed to be fun. You technical guys can make it as hard as you want but it does not have to be done that way. So make sure you do not scare people away by saying so.


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## tumi2

Hi all 

On Saturday I did my 2nd AG using BIAB (second AG ever). I made English bitter and copied the exact same recipe that I used for my first attempt. The wrap up of my first attempt is described on pages 59 60 including my successes, failures and a summary of the process. 

This time round everything went very well and I had none of the problems I had in my first attempt. 

I aimed for 1039 and got 1040 which I was happy with. I got 23 litres of clear wort in the fermenter and that was my target. The wort tasted very different to last time and was nice and sweet with a slight bitterness and did not have a thick syrupy mouth feel about it as it did last time. I attribute this to mashing at 64- 66 degs rather than 68 69degs.

The mash was easy, started at 66 degs, 45 mins later it dropped to 64 degs I lit the smallest ring of my 3 ring burner and ran it for about 15 mins. This bought it back to 66 degs and then turned the fire off and it dropped back to 64 over the next 45 mins. I had it wrapped in a thick blanket. Overall a pretty easy mash. I did agitate it a great deal more than last time and quite aggressively also. 

The transfer of hot wort to my cube from kettle was done using a silicone hose that I got from one of the sponsors of this site assisted by my friend gravity since I don't have a tap on my pot. It worked a treat and smoothly transferred the liquid into the cube with no splash at all and importantly no burns. This overcame my biggest difficulty in my first attempt. 

I pitched the yeast the next day at 20 degs and this time used my new aeration plastic stone on high setting and the wort was almost frothing over the top of the fermenter. I aerated for about 15 mins, pitched the yeast and the next morning there was a thick froth on top. 24 hours after pitching the wort the bubbles coming through the waterlock woke my wife and I up. It was going troppo and has been since. This is by far the best fermentation I have ever had compared to all my kit brews. Aerating the work certainly makes a big difference. 

Anyway, it is now a waiting game for a week or so then rack to a secondary and then bottle. Then I get to drink my first successful AG. Overall a very happy chappy and will now think about a 3rd effort but this time I will try and different style of beer.


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## katzke

tumi2 said:


> Hi all
> 
> 
> This time round everything went very well and I had none of the problems I had in my first attempt.



Glad to hear it went well this time. Keep it up and let us know if things go bad after you make soup or sauce in the brew kettle.


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## tumi2

Could someone please check over this for me.

I want to work out my efficiency for the brew in the post above. Is the first time i have done it and not sure i am getting it correct. I only got 62% so need to know if i am calculating correctly.

Calculations:

4kg of Pale malt = 8.82 pounds
700gr of light crystal = 1.54 pounds

Max Yield 
This is a bit of a guess because i dont know exactly what type of grain i used but it was Pale Ale Malt and light crystal from Daves Home brew.

My assumptions for yield:

Pale Ale malt = 1038
Light Crystal = 1034

Gravity after chill and before pitching yeast
1040

Total volume into fermenter after taking out trub and cold break in cube
22.7 ltres = 6 gallons


38 * 8.82 / 6 = 55.86
34 * 1.54 / 6 = 8.7

55.86 + 8.7 = 64.56

40/64.56 = .62

The volume i used was what i put in my fermenter after subtracting the 2 liters i left in my kettle and the 1 liter i left in my cube.

If someone can help im sure i wont need to ask again.


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## PistolPatch

*katzke*: I think you might have missed my point old mate! I personally don't get worried about measuring. I know what works for me and I think that, as a broad generalisation, the more brews under your belt, the less you worry about measurements etc. BUT, when new brewers start out, they are very worried and usually bewildered by this whole efficiency business. Like I said above, we are just trying to establish the best time to measure, the best efficiency measurement to use on the first few brews, the best volume to use on the first few brews and the least confusing way of putting this all together. Hope that makes sense  

*tumi2*: Thanks for letting us know of your progress. Great to hear that number 2 went a bit more smoothly than the first.

Your efficiency calculations are correct - good on ya!

BUT! What you have measured here is your efficiency into fermenter which is a lot lower than the "Brewhouse Efficiency," figure that brewing software programs use and which many brewers simply call efficiency.

Their brewhouse efficiency figure and the one you should use if using software is based on the volume after the boil. This means it includes all the kettle trub. What we don't know, is how much trub you had left in the kettle. Here's what your Brewhouse Efficiency figures would be if....

you had 2lts of trub you would have had a BE of 67.4%
you had 3lts of trub you would have had a BE of 70.1%
you had 4lts of trub you would have had a BE of 72.9%
you had 5lts of trub you would have had a BE of 75.6%

Your 62% into fermenter efficiency figure is fine - no problems at all. BUT, you shouldn't use that figure in your brewing software and you shouldn't use 23lts as your batch size in software. You should use 23lts plus trub (let's pretend 4lts). You should use 27lts.

I can't see any problems with your measuring or results so you are certainly on track. Next time you do a brew, use the template in the BIAB Brewer Register thread. Have a look at that thread from about this post on.

So relax mate, you are doing very well.

:icon_cheers: 
Pat


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## Thirsty Boy

Scruffy said:


> TB, this tiny fraction of measuring anomaly, did you adjust for the difference in volume due to temperature along the lines: change in volume=(coefficient of volume expansion)(initial volume)(change in temperature) or ΔV = V0βΔT
> 
> Layman's: from 0C - 100C you would see a 4% change in volume...
> 
> No, OK, I'll get me coat...




Yes I did take it into account - by measuring all the volumes at the same temperature (ie immediately after the wort had been boiling... 100C) and made sure all top up water was freshly boiled from the kettle. Everything at teh same temp. All the samples analysed at the same temperature - 20C

Because the idea was a comparison of the two values - it really doesn't matter that the 2.0L would shrink by 4% .. it would do so for both samples

TB


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## katzke

tumi2 said:


> Could someone please check over this for me.
> 
> I want to work out my efficiency for the brew in the post above. Is the first time i have done it and not sure i am getting it correct. I only got 62% so need to know if i am calculating correctly.


62 % into the fermentor is good.

To be able to tweak recipes using your software you need to know your mash efficiency. Will let Pat help you with that as he has his way and software can be a bit different to use with BIAB.

And while this may be what people consider brew house efficiency it does not take into consideration what you get out of your fermentor. I do not consider it beer until it is bottled or keged.


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## katzke

PistolPatch said:


> *katzke*: I think you might have missed my point old mate! I personally don't get worried about measuring. I know what works for me and I think that, as a broad generalisation, the more brews under your belt, the less you worry about measurements etc. BUT, when new brewers start out, they are very worried and usually bewildered by this whole efficiency business. Like I said above, we are just trying to establish the best time to measure, the best efficiency measurement to use on the first few brews, the best volume to use on the first few brews and the least confusing way of putting this all together. Hope that makes sense



Well if you are just trying to establish the best time to take a gravity reading, to measure mash efficiency, then it would have to be after the bag is pulled and any drained wort is added back into the kettle. It would also have to be with out a boil so a good guess of volume can be made.

Now consider the people who are brewing with urns and fight to get to a boil or those with out high BTU burners and also fight for a boil. Do you really want to ask them to bring the wort up to boil and then turn it off just to get a gravity reading?

The volume to use depends on the grain bill and the kettle. It also depends on how well they crush and squeeze. It also depends on how well they separate the break material. To be honest I thought TB already gave the answer to that. The formula he gave works better then any software I have tried. Sorry I do not have the particulars in front of me but I am sure he would be willing to give it again.

If there is a loss of sugar in the boil it should be consistent, at least as consistent as other losses. So it can be added up to brew house losses. This will give a reasonable figure for mash efficiency for them to use while it is all changing anyway. After all if you have a 75% efficiency in your recipe that does not say I can use your recipe and amounts to brew on my system. What I need to brew one of your recipes is the grain bill with mash schedule, the hops as well as the hop schedule, yeast & temp, the IBU estimate, the starting gravity into the fermentor, and the volume into the fermentor. It is nice to know what final gravity should be as well as the color. Then I can make any changes in the recipe I need for my system.

If you are going to spend a lot of time and effort to get all the calculations down you should be working on telling people how to calibrate their kettle measuring device and boil off. Then how to use the different software programs to get the correct amounts to brew with. Figuring how much water to use by hand is the easy part if you follow TBs formula. I could never get my software to agree with what worked (TBs calculations).


----------



## tumi2

PistolPatch said:


> ......
> 
> *tumi2*: Thanks for letting us know of your progress. Great to hear that number 2 went a bit more smoothly than the first.
> 
> Your efficiency calculations are correct - good on ya!
> 
> BUT! What you have measured here is your efficiency into fermenter which is a lot lower than the "Brewhouse Efficiency," figure that brewing software programs use and which many brewers simply call efficiency.
> 
> Their brewhouse efficiency figure and the one you should use if using software is based on the volume after the boil. This means it includes all the kettle trub. What we don't know, is how much trub you had left in the kettle. Here's what your Brewhouse Efficiency figures would be if....
> 
> you had 2lts of trub you would have had a BE of 67.4%
> you had 3lts of trub you would have had a BE of 70.1%
> you had 4lts of trub you would have had a BE of 72.9%
> you had 5lts of trub you would have had a BE of 75.6%
> 
> Your 62% into fermenter efficiency figure is fine - no problems at all. BUT, you shouldn't use that figure in your brewing software and you shouldn't use 23lts as your batch size in software. You should use 23lts plus trub (let's pretend 4lts). You should use 27lts.
> 
> I can't see any problems with your measuring or results so you are certainly on track. Next time you do a brew, use the template in the BIAB Brewer Register thread. Have a look at that thread from about this post on.
> 
> So relax mate, you are doing very well.
> 
> :icon_cheers:
> Pat



Thanks for that Pistol patch. I indeed did not include the trub and also i left a liter or so in the cube that i did not include in the figures. I will have another go at that tonight. I know i had about 2.5 ltrs to trub and about another 500 ml left in the cube. So i need to add on another 3 liters to my volume.

I read your thread about wanting those efficiency figures. I wil put mine up if you like but they are only from a single brew and an inexpienced brewer so not sure if you want them. I do take all the measurements in your list though. I have not adjusted my volume figures for the temperature so will start doing that.

Also i read that you can use Beersmith to work out the efficiency. I cant find out how to do this in the program. I reckon i would be better off using a program than relying on my maths. It is good to try and understand what it is actually measuring though.


----------



## tumi2

So Batch size in Beersmith that you put in Beersmith is what you expect to get at the end of the boil not what you want in your fermenter.....

and Efficicency includes full volume at end of boil after subtracting 4% for liquid volume increase at 100 degs.

When i take this into my calculations i end up with 73.4% Brewhouse Efficiency and a 27 liter batch rather than a 23 liter batch which i originally used in Beersmith.

Makes sense now!!!


----------



## katzke

tumi2 said:


> So Batch size in Beersmith that you put in Beersmith is what you expect to get at the end of the boil not what you want in your fermenter.....
> 
> and Efficicency includes full volume at end of boil after subtracting 4% for liquid volume increase at 100 degs.
> 
> When i take this into my calculations i end up with 73.4% Brewhouse Efficiency and a 27 liter batch rather than a 23 liter batch which i originally used in Beersmith.
> 
> Makes sense now!!!



I guess everyone has his own idea of what brew house efficiency should be and when to test it.

I want to know how much beer I get out of my grain. So my figure is based on my final drinkable beer volume.

A brewery may consider it as the amount of beer they send to the bottling/kegging line. So that would be what you get out of the fermentor.

The only time you take off the 4% is if you are checking boiling wort. Heat expands and all that.

I think it is only logical for home brewers to say it is the amount of beer they can possibly drink. It should at least be what comes out of the fermentor as the yeast sediment does have some beer in it and we do not ring out the yeast cake like the big breweries do.


----------



## PistolPatch

tumi2 said:


> So Batch size in Beersmith that you put in Beersmith is what you expect to get at the end of the boil not what you want in your fermenter.....
> 
> and Efficicency includes full volume at end of boil after subtracting 4% for liquid volume increase at 100 degs.
> 
> When i take this into my calculations i end up with 73.4% Brewhouse Efficiency and a 27 liter batch rather than a 23 liter batch which i originally used in Beersmith.
> 
> Makes sense now!!!



[Excuse the delayed reply tumi - internet has been playing up.]

Yep, you have got it :super: That is what Beersmith means by the term Brewhouse Efficicency. It gets very confusing because this is not what everyone means by the term. A search on the internet of the term will give you varied definitions.

Another confusing thing with Beersmith is that it asks you for figures like mash tun deadspace, losses to trub and chiller etc but it does not use these figures. For example, try setting mash tun deadspace to 0 and see how much water it asks you to prepare. Now change it to 50 lts, You would think it adds 50lts to the amount you need to prepare but it doesn't!

I basically use brewing software to check efficiency figures and to scale recipes I get from others to achieve the same original gravity as they recorded whilst allowing for my efficiency and my trub level. Unfortunateley, even scaling is a bit laborious as you pretty much have to play a game of "20 questions" to get the right OG.

So, when using brewing software, the brewhouse efficiency definition is as you have found - it includes all trub and you were correct to set your batch size to 27lts as this equals your brew length (how much beer you want to drink) plus trub.

You've done well!

And yes, I would be wrapped if you could record your figures in the BIAB Brewer Register thread especially as you are taking all those measurements. Doing this will be really helpful. Once you post your first figures up, I'll send you a spreadsheet with all the figures to date and continue to do so. You'll find it very interesting.

I'll look forward to it.

:icon_cheers: 
Pat

P.S. It sounds as though you worked out how to get Beersmith to do the efficiency calcs for you. Is that right or do you still need a hand?


----------



## tumi2

PistolPatch said:


> [Excuse the delayed reply tumi - internet has been playing up.]
> 
> Yep, you have got it :super: That is what Beersmith means by the term Brewhouse Efficicency. It gets very confusing because this is not what everyone means by the term. A search on the internet of the term will give you varied definitions.
> 
> Another confusing thing with Beersmith is that it asks you for figures like mash tun deadspace, losses to trub and chiller etc but it does not use these figures. For example, try setting mash tun deadspace to 0 and see how much water it asks you to prepare. Now change it to 50 lts, You would think it adds 50lts to the amount you need to prepare but it doesn't!
> 
> I basically use brewing software to check efficiency figures and to scale recipes I get from others to achieve the same original gravity as they recorded whilst allowing for my efficiency and my trub level. Unfortunateley, even scaling is a bit laborious as you pretty much have to play a game of "20 questions" to get the right OG.
> 
> So, when using brewing software, the brewhouse efficiency definition is as you have found - it includes all trub and you were correct to set your batch size to 27lts as this equals your brew length (how much beer you want to drink) plus trub.
> 
> You've done well!
> 
> And yes, I would be wrapped if you could record your figures in the BIAB Brewer Register thread especially as you are taking all those measurements. Doing this will be really helpful. Once you post your first figures up, I'll send you a spreadsheet with all the figures to date and continue to do so. You'll find it very interesting.
> 
> I'll look forward to it.
> 
> :icon_cheers:
> Pat
> 
> P.S. It sounds as though you worked out how to get Beersmith to do the efficiency calcs for you. Is that right or do you still need a hand?



Thanks for that. No, i have it sorted now. Thanks for the explanation.
I will post my figures once the beer is in the bottle.


----------



## eamonnfoley

PistolPatch said:


> [Excuse the delayed reply tumi - internet has been playing up.]
> 
> Yep, you have got it :super: That is what Beersmith means by the term Brewhouse Efficicency. It gets very confusing because this is not what everyone means by the term. A search on the internet of the term will give you varied definitions.
> 
> Another confusing thing with Beersmith is that it asks you for figures like mash tun deadspace, losses to trub and chiller etc but it does not use these figures. For example, try setting mash tun deadspace to 0 and see how much water it asks you to prepare. Now change it to 50 lts, You would think it adds 50lts to the amount you need to prepare but it doesn't!
> 
> I basically use brewing software to check efficiency figures and to scale recipes I get from others to achieve the same original gravity as they recorded whilst allowing for my efficiency and my trub level. Unfortunateley, even scaling is a bit laborious as you pretty much have to play a game of "20 questions" to get the right OG.
> 
> So, when using brewing software, the brewhouse efficiency definition is as you have found - it includes all trub and you were correct to set your batch size to 27lts as this equals your brew length (how much beer you want to drink) plus trub.
> 
> You've done well!
> 
> And yes, I would be wrapped if you could record your figures in the BIAB Brewer Register thread especially as you are taking all those measurements. Doing this will be really helpful. Once you post your first figures up, I'll send you a spreadsheet with all the figures to date and continue to do so. You'll find it very interesting.
> 
> I'll look forward to it.
> 
> :icon_cheers:
> Pat
> 
> P.S. It sounds as though you worked out how to get Beersmith to do the efficiency calcs for you. Is that right or do you still need a hand?




Pat, I have been reading up a bit on this lately.

From the beersmith site - article by the guy who wrote beersmith

_"The actual brewhouse efficiency is measured for an entire system. Unlike the dry grain yield or potential measured in a lab, real brewers achieve only a percentage of the ideal number due to real considerations such as efficiency of the mashing process, and losses due to boiling, deadspace or trub. This percentage of the potential, as measured across the whole system into the fermenter, is the brewhouse efficiency."_

from:
http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2008/10/26/b...n-beer-brewing/


This is why I am taking the trub losses in my brewpot into account (i.e. batch size = into fermenter) - because the recipe is forumated using a specified brewhouse efficiency figure. I dont have beersmith here at work to confirm, but I remember there being a discrepancy between the equipment boil volume, and the recipe boil volume, if you dont take out the trub losses from the batch size. And recipes lifted from other sources seem to match better when I do this. There is some conflict on this though - from what I have seen on other forums, so im not 100% convinced. Should be easy enough to confirm with a hand calculation and a proven recipe from a book such as Jamils, which i will do when I get some time!


----------



## PistolPatch

Yep, don't be 100% convinced  

This has been going on for a while and I keep hearing that changes are going to be made with the program but they still haven't been. When you get home, pull up a recipe and change your losses to trub and chiller from say 0 to 5 lts. You'll find this has no effect on the calculated Brewhouse Efficiency. The article you found says that it should though - lol!

So, if you lift a recipe from another source and the batch size says 19lts and the brewhouse efficiency figure is the same as yours, you won't get 19lts into your fermenter. You'll get 19lts minus your trub.

All this means that knowing how much trub you get is an important figure to get to know. Those with taps on the kettle will often end up with less trub in the kettle but more in the cube/fermenter. Those who can control a syphon, may get more trub in the kettle but less later on.

All good fun eh?  

I hope you are saving me some of your beer?

:icon_cheers: 
Pat


----------



## katzke

PistolPatch said:


> Yep, don't be 100% convinced
> 
> This has been going on for a while and I keep hearing that changes are going to be made with the program but they still haven't been. When you get home, pull up a recipe and change your losses to trub and chiller from say 0 to 5 lts. You'll find this has no effect on the calculated Brewhouse Efficiency. The article you found says that it should though - lol!
> 
> :icon_cheers:
> Pat



Part of the problem I had and why I dumped BeerSmith. That and the poor responses when I asked questions.

When you play with losses in the program they will not automatically change a recipe. Can not remember what needs to be done or if it can be done to update a recipe. Supposed to be that way to keep from changing old recipes that have already been brewed. I guess it has merits either way. Just bothered me that when working on a recipe any changes did not effect the recipe. I also found that I had more problems with the program and so changed to an equally quirky free one. I still have to work out water by hand or give a good guess.


----------



## PistolPatch

I asked a mod to delete my Friday night post here. And just to think, I thought it was actually really interesting at time of writing. A sober re-read lead me to believe otherwise  

katzke noticed in the BIABrewer Register thread that I have a very high evaporation rate on my brews. I thought it better to answer in this thread....

My pot is a 70lt Robinox with a diameter of 45cm (not 50 like I said in the other thread sorry). A standard keggle, from memory, has a circumference of 33cm. This means that the surface area of my pot is almost double that of a keggle - (1590 versus 855.)

Tom replied...



katzke said:


> I would guess your aroma and flavor additions suffer from such a high boil off. Have you noticed any difference in your brews to others that brew the same recipe? Do you make any changes?
> 
> Have you ever thought of putting a lid on part way to decrease the boil off? I know DMS and all that but you are on the high end of the boil off rate.



There don't seem to be any worries with the higher boil-off although your gas bill is a bit higher 

I have done a few brews side by side with others and tasted beers from others using the same recipes. There is no problem on the hop side.

The thing to remember with these big pots is that to get 19% evaporation rate, you are not doing a wildly vigorous boil. It is probably the equivalent of a 14% boil in a keggle, maybe even less. The surface area of my pot is almost double that of a keggle and surface area is the major factor that will affect your evaporation rate.

Like troopa [in the other thread], I used to worry about it and went through a period of partially covering the pot and just simmering the boil. It seemed to make no difference to the evaporation rate and all it did was give me cloudy beer! Now I know not to worry at all. Every pot has it's advantages and disadvantages. My 70lt pot allows me to double batch and this is a great plus.

If I do a double batch in my pot, the evaporation rate, using the same boil vigour, will drop down to about 12% from memory. (I'll measure the next doubles I do properly.)

Evaporation percentages are too often quoted without consideration to kettle geometry of which I have always found it hard to get info on. In the old days, commercial breweries would have up to 20% evaporation, now the highest they go is about 8%. The main push for this was economy.

It's an interesting area but I think getting the right boil vigour is probably more important than evaporation rate for us home brewers. The little info you do get, always seems to refer to evaporation rates which always has me scratching my head as they don't refer to kettle geometry. ThirstyBoy might know more about the commercial kettles (diameter versus depth, chimnneys, fans etc). The only ones I know are the old copper kettles at Matilda Bay which were squat and tapered into a chimney at the top.

The long and short of it is that if you have a high surface area pot, your evaporation rates are going to be much higher even at the same boil vigour. The beer tastes great and if you can do both single and double batches in it, then that is a real plus for some brewers.

Boiling your beer in a bath tub shaped kettle has got to be wrong. Boiling your beer in a rain guage shaped kettle has got to be wrong. As to where the happy medium lies, I dunno!

Spot,
Pat.


----------



## eamonnfoley

katzke said:


> Part of the problem I had and why I dumped BeerSmith. That and the poor responses when I asked questions.
> 
> When you play with losses in the program they will not automatically change a recipe. Can not remember what needs to be done or if it can be done to update a recipe. Supposed to be that way to keep from changing old recipes that have already been brewed. I guess it has merits either way. Just bothered me that when working on a recipe any changes did not effect the recipe. I also found that I had more problems with the program and so changed to an equally quirky free one. I still have to work out water by hand or give a good guess.



Been having a closer look at this. Beersmith calculates the original gravity based on the grain yield multiplied by the brewhouse efficiency figure that you have specified. Confirmed this by hand. So if you have previously determined your brewhouse efficiency figure (actual not calculated) including your trub loss, then your batch size should be "into fermenter". If you haven't consider included your trub loss in your brewhouse efficiency determination, then its "in boiler" batch size. 

I find the equipment field handy for boil-off calculations only, and its better to use it independently to the recipe.

This sound reasonable?


----------



## PistolPatch

foles said:


> This sound reasonable?



Yep you are right. You can do your recipe to whatever efficiency you like as long as you set the batch size accordingly. eg use 75-85% if your batch size includes trub. Use more like 60% if it doesn't. (I haven't tried the latter but I would imagine it works???)

Did you try changing those figures I mentioned? Losse to mash tun, kettle, trub, chiller etc.?

That is where the problem lies. You should be able to set all this up and the program should tell you what your efficiency will be into boiler, into fermenter etc etc. But you fill all those in and it makes no difference!

This is where all heads start spinning!!!


Pat

P.S. I am still waiting for one of your, "new" beers?


----------



## eamonnfoley

PistolPatch said:


> Yep you are right. You can do your recipe to whatever efficiency you like as long as you set the batch size accordingly. eg use 75-85% if your batch size includes trub. Use more like 60% if it doesn't. (I haven't tried the latter but I would imagine it works???)
> 
> Did you try changing those figures I mentioned? Losse to mash tun, kettle, trub, chiller etc.?
> 
> That is where the problem lies. You should be able to set all this up and the program should tell you what your efficiency will be into boiler, into fermenter etc etc. But you fill all those in and it makes no difference!
> 
> This is where all heads start spinning!!!
> 
> 
> Pat
> 
> P.S. I am still waiting for one of your, "new" beers?



yeah i can see how beersmith doesnt link up well from recipe to equipment, etc. Best to use them all independently. So when most people use the word efficiency they dont mean "brewhouse efficiency", but "brewing efficiency". I think im at about 65% brewhouse, which is probably about 75% brewing efficiency

My keg of ordinary bitter is just about finished! You might have to taste the next batch!


----------



## PistolPatch

foles said:


> My keg of ordinary bitter is just about finished! You might have to taste the next batch!


 :angry: 

Yep, Beersmith "Brewhouse Efficiency" uses volume x gravity at the end of the boil.

Theoretically this efficiency figure should also equal volume x gravity at the beginning of the boil but for several brewers this doesn't happen.

Safest place to measure your "Beersmith Efficiency" is after the boil and include all the volume. If you use a chiller, drain your clear wort into the fermenter and then tip all the kettle trub into a 5lt brewer's measuring jug. Add what you have in your jug to what you have in your fermenter and use that as the volume.

Your gravity should not change after the boil until the yeast starts working of course!

Good fun eh?

EDIT: After the hose debacle, I want you to go and buy a measuring jug and become an avid reporter of your figures in the BIAB Brewer Register thread


----------



## katzke

PistolPatch said:


> katzke noticed in the BIABrewer Register thread that I have a very high evaporation rate on my brews. I thought it better to answer in this thread....
> 
> My pot is a 70lt Robinox with a diameter of 45cm (not 50 like I said in the other thread sorry). A standard keggle, from memory, has a circumference of 33cm. This means that the surface area of my pot is almost double that of a keggle - (1590 versus 855.)
> 
> 
> I have done a few brews side by side with others and tasted beers from others using the same recipes. There is no problem on the hop side.
> 
> 
> Spot,
> Pat.



Other then technical questions of why you would have a different boil off rate based on volume I did some checking on the hop aroma question.

The oils associated with aroma are volatile or will boil off.

From here http://www.probrewer.com/resources/hops/products.php The same phenomenon may, however, be less favourable for essential oil utilization. The relatively slow-release of oils from whole glands of leaf hops allows time for oxidation of the major hydrocarbons such as humulene to humulene epoxides, etc. thought to be responsible for good hop aroma in beer. The ruptured glands in powder pellets may lose the vast majority of these hydrocarbons by volatilization before the oxidation products have a chance to form.

So it would seem that some loss does happen but that the hops limit this by what is happening in the boiling wort.

So just like cube hopping there must be a difference but is it detectable by us in most beers?


----------



## Thirsty Boy

not really, the rate at which the hop hydrocarbons evaporate isn't going to have a whole heaping lot to do with your kettle evaporation rate.

The hydrocarbons are basically gone in 10mins in any decent boil - a few more hanging around if you use hop flowers rather than pellets, because they come into solution slower - this gives them a chance to oxidise, and the oxidised products are less volatile as well as often more aromatic than the actual oils.

The only real way to keep any of the hydrocarbon fraction in your beer from kettle hopping - is to use a hopback. Fortunately, you can get that HC fraction by dry hopping - then you are talking more actual terpenes and less epoxides. Which is why your dry hopping gives a more resinous, "hoppy" aroma than late hopping, with a hopback giving a nice mix of both.


----------



## tumi2

PistolPatch said:


> ............ And yes, I would be wrapped if you could record your figures in the BIAB Brewer Register thread especially as you are taking all those measurements. Doing this will be really helpful. Once you post your first figures up, I'll send you a spreadsheet with all the figures to date and continue to do so. You'll find it very interesting.
> 
> I'll look forward to it.
> 
> :icon_cheers:
> Pat
> 
> P.S. It sounds as though you worked out how to get Beersmith to do the efficiency calcs for you. Is that right or do you still need a hand?




HI there
as promised here are my figures.

Desired Batch Size* (lts): 23 liters into fermenter 27 after boil
Vessel Type (Keggle or _x_lt Pot): 50 liter Stainless
Length of Boil (mins): 60 mins
Grain Bill (kgs):4kg Pale Ale 700 gr Light Crystal
Starting Volume of Water (lts):38
Volume at Boil Start (lts):34
Specific Gravity Reading at Start of Boil (hydrometer sample cooled to 15 or 20 degrees): 1034 @ 24 degrees
Plato Gravity Reading at Start of Boil (refractometer sample cooled to 20 degrees): NA
Volume at End of Boil (lts - deduct 4% if measured at 100 degrees): 25.6
Specific Gravity at End of Boil (hydrometer sample cooled to 15 or 20 degrees):1040 @ 20 degs
Plato Gravity Reading at End of Boil (refractometer sample cooled to 20 degrees):
Are you chilling? (Yes/No):no
Trub Left in Kettle (lts):2.5
Volume into Cube (lts):between 23 and 23.5 liters
Volume into Fermenter (lts):22.8
Specific Gravity Reading into Fermenter (hydrometer sample at 15 or 20 degrees): 1040
Plato Gravity Reading into Fermenter (refractometer sample at 20 degrees):
FINAL Specific Gravity Reading after Fermentation (hydrometer sample at 15 or 20 degrees): 1015
FINAL Plato Gravity Reading after Fermentation (refractometer sample at 20 degrees):
Fermenter Trub (lts): 2.5
Resulting Batch Size (lts): 21.5 ltr out of fermenter

UNfortunatelty my second brew has also failed much the same way my first one has. Its pretty frustrating that i have done the same brew twice trying to get rid of a bad cardboard taste nd got the same bad taste in both. I have created a thread on this here which has provided some useful ideas a to what it is.
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=35248


----------



## PistolPatch

tumi, thanks a heap for that. I'll throw your figures into the spreadsheet and send you a copy once I get through this Australia's Biggest Brew Day weekend. I have a lot of cleaning, weighing, crushing, filtering etc to do  

Spot!


----------



## PistolPatch

Offy seems to be having a bit of trouble with his first BIAB. See here

LOL!


----------



## reviled

Thought I would just post a link to my blog which shows my process for BIAB :icon_cheers: 

http://realbeernz.ning.com/profiles/blogs/biab-reviled-style


----------



## PistolPatch

Good on you reviled. Well written too mate but I think you should move the last sentence to the top  

You've been doing a great job over there helping other BIABers get going. I received a nice email yesterday from one of the guys you helped, Pilgrim, who thanks you in his pictorial blog. Check out his shiny brew kettle!

Must be cold over there mate if you have to do your mash inside a cow 

:icon_cheers: 
Pat

P.S. See how you go with a 90 minute mash. I read some interesting experiment a while back and it concluded that high liquor to grain ratio mashes such as BIAB will give you better conversion in the longer mash. This might help with the under-attenuation problem - not sure???


----------



## reviled

PistolPatch said:


> Good on you reviled. Well written too mate but I think you should move the last sentence to the top
> 
> You've been doing a great job over there helping other BIABers get going. I received a nice email yesterday from one of the guys you helped, Pilgrim, who thanks you in his pictorial blog. Check out his shiny brew kettle!
> 
> Must be cold over there mate if you have to do your mash inside a cow
> 
> 
> Pat
> 
> P.S. See how you go with a 90 minute mash. I read some interesting experiment a while back and it concluded that high liquor to grain ratio mashes such as BIAB will give you better conversion in the longer mash. This might help with the under-attenuation problem - not sure???



Its all about sharing the BIAB love! lol, ive got a few people into BIAB, some have moved onto conventional mashing, others are still going strong :beerbang: 

Ill give the 90 min mash a go, allthough i think the culprit is definately the thermometer, as it started flashing HH and not working not too long after that brew lol, so one would assume it was probably giving me false readings?? Off to buy a new therm <_<


----------



## RdeVjun

reviled said:


> Its all about sharing the BIAB love! lol, ive got a few people into BIAB, some have moved onto conventional mashing, others are still going strong :beerbang:
> 
> Ill give the 90 min mash a go, allthough i think the culprit is definately the thermometer, as it started flashing HH and not working not too long after that brew lol, so one would assume it was probably giving me false readings?? Off to buy a new therm <_<


Yep, I'd support that- I've been 90 minute mashing for a while now (sometimes longer even, usually they're unplanned though) and am always pleased with the result, always comes in on the target SG, and so reliable that I never even bother to work the actual efficiency numbers out. Even last night's quite thick stout mash was just fine. 'Mash low, mash long' is my motto!


----------



## Bribie G

RdeVjun said:


> Yep, I'd support that- I've been 90 minute mashing for a while now (sometimes longer even, usually they're unplanned though) and am always pleased with the result, always comes in on the target SG, and so reliable that I never even bother to work the actual efficiency numbers out. Even last night's quite thick stout mash was just fine. 'Mash low, mash long' is my motto!


Because I passively lag my urn during mashing, 90 minutes or 60 minutes is all the same to me and when caught out shopping it's even gone two hours no worries. The only time I do a short mash is when I'm aiming for a highly dextrinous wort (recently did a UK mild at 70 degrees for 60 minutes and a FES partial with a Coopers stout, where I did similar with the grain bill.

On the other hand with Aussie Olds and Pales I go 64 degrees for 90 mins. Horses for courses.


----------



## Renegade

Simple question, so I'm not opening a new thread. I just rang my closest Spotlight, and they only have Ivory swiss voile. Is this even the same product as the white polyester product you guys use ? 

The girl on the phone was a bit, well, THICK. For some reason she could only say 'I think so" when I asked her if it was polyester.


----------



## Bribie G

Renegade said:


> Simple question, so I'm not opening a new thread. I just rang my closest Spotlight, and they only have Ivory swiss voile. Is this even the same product as the white polyester product you guys use ?
> 
> The girl on the phone was a bit, well, THICK. For some reason she could only say 'I think so" when I asked her if it was polyester.



I've seen that stuff and it's for dressmaking so not suitable. Best to just go there to the rolls of sheer curtain material and get polyester stuff that looks like this:'






As long as it's definitely polyester or nylon it will do the job.


----------



## smollocks

Renegade said:


> Simple question, so I'm not opening a new thread. I just rang my closest Spotlight, and they only have Ivory swiss voile. Is this even the same product as the white polyester product you guys use ?
> 
> The girl on the phone was a bit, well, THICK. For some reason she could only say 'I think so" when I asked her if it was polyester.



A Spotlight tag with product code is quoted in this thread: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=415678

I took that to Spotlight, they looked it up on the computer and found the exact shelf it was on. 

I also recommend getting some strong cord with which to hold the bag. The ~6mm typical tracksuit cord I got hasn't handled the weight of wet grain and has broken already.


----------



## Renegade

Already have that PLU in my wallet - but THANKS. It's good for people to keep linking to it for the reference of others. 

Good call on the cord/weight issues. I'll use a bloody big piece of nylon 'rope' or something similar. That'll do the trick.


----------



## PistolPatch

reviled said:


> Its all about sharing the BIAB love! lol, ive got a few people into BIAB, some have moved onto conventional mashing, others are still going strong :beerbang:
> 
> Ill give the 90 min mash a go, allthough i think the culprit is definately the thermometer, as it started flashing HH and not working not too long after that brew lol, so one would assume it was probably giving me false readings?? Off to buy a new therm <_<



LOL on the, "BIAB love!" Excuse the slow response but Katie has had us all brewing like maniacs this last week  

You are doing a great job and you'll find that those who move onto conventional brewing will not suddenly post, "I made my first great beer!" It is tempting to buy new equipment or try a new brewing method when we have problems starting out. You'll find any number of kit brewers go and buy a water filter thinking this will make "the," difference. I did and it didn't. Nor did proper temperature control! Thankfully, most people don't have problems starting out with BIAB but if there is a problem I have yet to see it be suddenly solved by purchasing more equipment so keep your eye on those guys and make sure they aren't missing something basic. There is also no harm in trying out traditional brewing methods as long as you are not spending a heap of money to do so or doing it believing it will give you a better beer. I love being able to brew two batches (doubles if I want) simultaneously with just two kettles. To do this traditionally is impossible. I would need at least 5 vessels - preferably 6! God forbid the cost or the logistics.

The 90 minute mash will do you no harm nor will an extra thermometer or ten . Once you establish the accuracy or any thermometer, then you have the convenience questions. e.g. Can I drop it in a mash or will the wort stuff the probe up?

I'm pretty happy with my thermometers but want a longer probe on them and more resistance to an accidental drop in the mash!

Spot!
Pat

P.S. Just working my way through the posts above. Looks like RdeVjun and BribieG agree on the longer mash so there you go! I think you'll find all long-time brewers (BIAB or traditional) feel safer with the 90 minute mash.


----------



## buttersd70

As a "conventional" mash brewer, I've never commented in the biab threads, but I have read them, with interest....

I have, however, recently had my first taste of a biab beer (thanks, bribie, me old mate). Spread the biab love, guys.....all the naysayers, with their over inflated egos, and hypothetical 'problems with the process'....I tasted that beer, and tasted it hard, cos it was sent to me specifically for feedback (on the recipe, not the method of production)....I was _looking _for issues....the clarity (and presentation in general) was _excellent_, and there were no discernable process induced off flavours at all.

Oh, and as it was a Mild, anything off would have stuck out like dogs wotsits.  

And actually....Butters will shortly be joining you biab mob.  Kinda sort of. I want to do some smaller batches for recipe development, and have decided that, given my current equipment, biab (or at least a hybridised method) is the way for me to go with it....

ps....yes, I'm heavily medicated atm.


----------



## PistolPatch

Renegade said:


> Already have that PLU in my wallet - but THANKS. It's good for people to keep linking to it for the reference of others.
> 
> Good call on the cord/weight issues. I'll use a bloody big piece of nylon 'rope' or something similar. That'll do the trick.



Katie busted her bag last weekend. If you get a tear in your bag for some reason, make sure you patch it before your next brew!!!

I just gave Katie and Lloyd my original BIAB bag with the drawstring. It served me well and even did a few double-batches!

But, for the price and convenience, I think it is best to buy a bag from Gryphon Brewing. He uses the design that I supplied him with and that I used to get made up for anyone who asked me too. I used to charge only the cost price of material and what my dry-cleaner charged me. This came to $38 from memory - $26 for the sewing and $12 for the material. This was pretty inconvenient for me and also for my dry-cleaner who finally refused to do any more!

So, I think it is not a bad idea to buy one.

Maybe I'll send Gryphon an email asking him to include some spare fabric for drunken brewers who tear or burn their bags?


Pat


----------



## PistolPatch

> As a \"conventional\" mash brewer, I\'ve never commented in the biab threads, but I have read them, with interest....
> 
> I have, however, recently had my first taste of a biab beer (thanks, bribie, me old mate). Spread the biab love, guys.....all the naysayers, with their over inflated egos, and hypothetical \'problems with the process\'....I tasted that beer, and tasted it hard, cos it was sent to me specifically for feedback (on the recipe, not the method of production)....I was _looking _for issues....the clarity (and presentation in general) was _excellent_, and there were no discernable process induced off flavours at all.
> 
> Oh, and as it was a Mild, anything off would have stuck out like dogs wotsits.
> 
> And actually....Butters will shortly be joining you biab mob.  Kinda sort of. I want to do some smaller batches for recipe development, and have decided that, given my current equipment, biab (or at least a hybridised method) is the way for me to go with it....
> 
> ps....yes, I\'m heavily medicated atm.



butters, you are the man! Just because of your post, I am going to release a sneak preview of the intended BIAB FAQ\'s!!!

I have split several of the answers into replying to varying levels of brewer. The last category might be of interest to you - maybe?

So, here is the first sneak preview of the upcoming BIAB FAQ\'s :super: ...



> *Why BIAB?*
> 
> If you are reading about BIAB then you are obviously getting a taste for all-grain brewing or you already are a full mash brewer. BIAB has many advantages for both. Jump to the section below that is most applicable to you.
> 
> *A Simple Answer for the Inexperienced All-Grain Brewer*
> 
> BIAB is a new method of brewing that due to its quality, simplicity and economy, enables an easy skip from the too-often, uncertainty of extract/kit brewing, straight into the delights and certainty of all-grain brewing. (Forget about extract twang, steeping and partial-mashing or saving up for a traditional rig.)
> 
> BIAB has already proved it produces beer equivalent in quality to traditional brewing techniques but BIAB also...
> 
> is cheaper - needs less equipment.
> is simpler to do.
> is easier to understand.
> takes less time.
> needs less space.
> is a method with a tremendous amount of flexibility.
> 
> Unless you inherited a traditional brewery, it is very hard to think of any situation where BIAB is not the ideal set-up in both the short and long term. (see “For the Experienced All-Grain Brewer,” below.)
> 
> *A Detailed Answer for the Inexperienced All-Grain Brewer*
> 
> Most full mash brewers will have started with extract or extract kit brewing and then moved to steeping and/or partial mashing before going all-grain. This is often a long and frustrating process not just because of extract’s inflexibility compared to all-grain but also due to the difficulty, in many locales, of sourcing fresh extract of consistent and high quality. Those brewers who cannot access such quality extract will always be disappointed in their brews due to extract “twang,” – an astringent, puckering flavour that new brewers often blame on themselves.
> 
> This twang causes many brewers to give up the brewing game completely without even realising they were not to blame for their low quality beer.
> 
> If you are lucky enough to be able to source high quality extract, you can certainly brew a credible if not great beer but there is still nowhere near the flexibility, certainty and enjoyment of all-grain. Very few people give up all-grain brewing because it is almost impossible to brew an undrinkable beer if you follow a sound recipe and know the basics of cleanliness and temperature control. In fact, if you use a brilliant recipe such as those found in the book, “Brewing Classic Styles,” by Jamil Zainasheff and John J. Palmer, on your first brew, you could even brew an award-winning beer on your first batch.
> 
> BIAB enable brewers a simple skip out of extract or kit brewing and into all-grain.
> 
> *An Answer for the Experienced All-Grain Brewer*
> 
> If you already brew a great beer through batch or fly-sparging, then you should expect to achieve that same quality beer with BIAB.
> 
> The more time and money that you have spent on traditional brewing though, the less advantage BIAB will be to you. This is not because you will brew a better beer with your set-up but simply because the more we spend on any brewing set-up, the more we confine ourselves to it. As brewers we buy our “appliances”, and then build our “kitchen,” around these which is fair enough.
> 
> The fact though that BIAB can brew excellent beer will prick any good brewer’s ears up and make them wish to be at least a little more knowledgeable about it. It has even suited some brewers to completely or partially change from traditional to BIAB due to its efficiency in one or a combination of the following areas – time, space and economy.
> 
> Maybe you too might be able/like to convert your HLT and kettle into two MLT/kettles to give you twice the output on your brew day? It is certainly worth considering whether BIAB can simplify or improve your existing set-up and needs.



Thanks butters for the positive feedback.

:icon_cheers: 
Pat

P.S. Special thanks to BribieG too. (Bribie, thanks for doing as I asked and slipping that gold-winning commercially brewed Mild to butters. I will fix you up for the postage etc at the Swap - our secret, ok?)


----------



## buttersd70

Well worded, Pat. :icon_cheers:


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

PistolPatch said:


> Katie busted her bag last weekend. If you get a tear in your bag for some reason, make sure you patch it before your next brew!!!
> 
> I just gave Katie and Lloyd my original BIAB bag with the drawstring. It served me well and even did a few double-batches!
> 
> But, for the price and convenience, I think it is best to buy a bag from Gryphon Brewing. He uses the design that I supplied him with and that I used to get made up for anyone who asked me too. I used to charge only the cost price of material and what my dry-cleaner charged me. This came to $38 from memory - $26 for the sewing and $12 for the material. This was pretty inconvenient for me and also for my dry-cleaner who finally refused to do any more!
> 
> So, I think it is not a bad idea to buy one.
> 
> Maybe I'll send Gryphon an email asking him to include some spare fabric for drunken brewers who tear or burn their bags?
> 
> 
> Pat


PP, never had one of our Biab Bags tear yet by weight alone ! The nature of the fabric does not allow it , It may tear if draped over sharp edges so be warned. But have had two (drunken brewers)out of fifty odd bags being burnt by some process or another.You two know who you are !! we replaced them at not cost to the customer by the way. My mum puts these together, and she is a great seamstress and is very particular about how the bags are treated.If you stuff up one of her bags you have to face her! I think we may include a patch kit for accidental processes. LOL
Like any thing treat it right and it will last.
GB


----------



## PistolPatch

*butters* Thanks mate. Every word gets fretted over to a degree you wouldn't believe but I think we are getting close. I have edited the post you are referring to right at the end but don't read that as it only contains bribery info for BribieG. He says I have to send you money as well  

*Gryphon:* BIAB bag sales should increase after recent posts here. I want 25% of your net profit to be delivered by a promotional girl with my next bag of grain thanks. And yes, I know it is only Katie and Eric that abuse bags but this stems from childhood issues which I am working through with them. The patch kit can do no harm though so good on ya!


----------



## buttersd70

PistolPatch said:


> I have edited the post you are referring to right at the end but don't read that as it only contains bribery info for BribieG. He says I have to send you money as well



in the immortal words of Dick Emery....."oooh, you are awful! But I _like _ya!"
:lol:


----------



## Bribie G

buttersd70 said:


> As a "conventional" mash brewer, I've never commented in the biab threads, but I have read them, with interest....
> 
> I have, however, recently had my first taste of a biab beer (thanks, bribie, me old mate). Spread the biab love, guys.....all the naysayers, with their over inflated egos, and hypothetical 'problems with the process'....I tasted that beer, and tasted it hard, cos it was sent to me specifically for feedback (on the recipe, not the method of production)....I was _looking _for issues....the clarity (and presentation in general) was _excellent_, and there were no discernable process induced off flavours at all.
> 
> Oh, and as it was a Mild, anything off would have stuck out like dogs wotsits.
> 
> And actually....Butters will shortly be joining you biab mob.  Kinda sort of. I want to do some smaller batches for recipe development, and have decided that, given my current equipment, biab (or at least a hybridised method) is the way for me to go with it....
> 
> ps....yes, I'm heavily medicated atm.



For the first time since Diana's funeral I burst into tears

However all the hairs on my body have now settled down and I have recovered my composure enough to suggest that a drawstring is great but to take the strain off your precious new bag you can't go past getting some 'awning cable' from any hardware store and paying a boy scout to show you how to make a traditional hangman's noose. My neighbours are now used to seeing me rigging it up in the garage and no longer ring Lifeline.


----------



## buttersd70

BribieG said:


> For the first time since Diana's funeral I burst into tears



roflmao :lol:


----------



## Bizier

I have done a few more BIABs, and I am thinking of changing my bag design to one that has less seams at the stress points at the base. I have a "baked bean can" design and it is getting a workout with continuous 10kg-ish dry grists being wrung some.

Drinking my SMASH MO+EKG+Ringwood English Pale, and it is going down an absolute treat.


----------



## Bribie G

PistolPatch said:


> P.S. Special thanks to BribieG too. (Bribie, thanks for doing as I asked and slipping that gold-winning commercially brewed Mild to butters. I will fix you up for the postage etc at the Swap - our secret, ok?)



You also owe my Brother in the UK about thirteen quid for the bottle of Higsons Mild and the postage. 


On the question of bag design, the baked bean can design is optimal for getting a 'tear drop' profile when you are draining. My bag is a 'pillowcase' design and has the main 'strap' of the fabric running down, around the bottom, and up again with the only seams at the sides. The problem with that design is that although it is the strongest, when you hoist it, it turns into a giant pair of dogs bollocks and if you have a narrow vessel such as a Crown Urn the two streams of wort can start to spill and run down the outside of the urn or pot. Ugly.

It's sort of 'six of one half a dozen of the other'. Personally I'll be going a Gryphon bag soon because our local Island sewing lady has retired, dear old chook. My bag has actually done over thirty brews but each time I have to raise it in three or four stages so that when it's swinging free eventually, the dog bollock effect isn't too bad. I would much rather hoist it up to its upper position in one hit and walk away until drained.


----------



## Cocko

Bizier said:


> I have done a few more BIABs, and I am thinking of changing my bag design to one that has less seams at the stress points at the base. I have a "baked bean can" design and it is getting a workout with continuous 10kg-ish dry grists being wrung some.
> 
> Drinking my SMASH MO+EKG+Ringwood English Pale, and it is going down an absolute treat.



I ran 35+ brews through my 'fold over' pillow case style design and never had an issue! In fact I have just passed the baton  Bag to a mate and I can't see it giving up anytime soon... my grain bills were 7-8 kg.... Also had the bag double [french] seamed down the sides... only way to roll!


----------



## Bribie G

Cocko, did you get the dog bollock effect with your bag? It annoys the shyte out of me as posted above ( I also saw a photo posted by Katie who does mega sized brews and hers looked more like Elephants ) :lol:


----------



## Cocko

Yeah I did Bribie.. and let me tell ya, it makes it hard to spin and drain by squeezing! :lol: 

Seriously, I use to pull the bag out by gathering the seams first, to the point of reaching a corner on one side, causing the exact opposite affect to 'Scrotos dangleous' affect... Running a Keggle with a smaller cut hole, on top, I had to manoeuvre it that way! 

And yeah.. You gotta love that photo of Katies Elephant 'Scrotos dangleous'


----------



## Bizier

I am thinking of more like a circle the diameter of the pot + maybe 5 or 6 slightly flared wings tangential to the circumference (if memories of high school maths serves me true) and these are sewn together so that the seams only run vertically.

I might provide a diagram is this works out... hell I have a full beer:


----------



## Bribie G

Now your'e talking.

Forget about Three Dog Night now we have

five ball dog 

:lol: 


Actually that should work well


----------



## PistolPatch

LOL! The dog's bollock's photo of Katie's is from a double-batch done at my place  

One word of advice though, I think you want to go either of 2 ways...

1.) If you don't have a pulley, aim to pull your bag out quickly and dump and drain it in a bucket.
2.) If you have a pulley system, you should have a cleat as well. This means you can raise the bag gradually.

I think I am worn out now but will do a post tomorrow explaining what I do with a pulley and a cleat and what I used to do without them.

One thing you shouldn't do however is leave the bag in mid-air, I reckon.

Til then, spot!
Pat


----------



## Cocko

Thats not funny Bribie, my dog does have 5 balls! 


Anyway, Bizier,

That looks good if you know your seams will be good.

Suggestion: Go French seams! Basically, you sow the seam and then fold it into it self and sow up the other side! SO, no exposed thread... So you sorta create a tube AND double the strength!

Just my 2c!

View attachment 29322


----------



## crundle

Cocko said:


> Thats not funny Bribie, my dog does have 5 balls!
> 
> 
> Anyway, Bizier,
> 
> That looks good if you know your seams will be good.
> 
> Suggestion: Go French seams! Basically, you sow the seam and then fold it into it self and sow up the other side! SO, no exposed thread... So you sorta create a tube AND double the strength!
> 
> Just my 2c!
> 
> View attachment 29322



plus 1 for the french seams, they work a treat and are amazingly strong.

crundle - gah my keyboard is dying - it wont type capital letters anymore...


----------



## Phoney

Well ive read the checklist, the PDF, the first few pages of this whopping big thread, and the last few pages, but im still a bit unclear on a few things. This is what ive got so far:

Birko 40L urn - delivered today! yay!
3m of un-dyed voile cloth and nylon thread - going to have a friend sew a bag for me, basically in the shape of a grain bag but 5x bigger.
hop sock, large - ordered from craftbrewer today
Silicone Hose - Heavy Duty -ordered from craftbrewer today
camping mat to wrap around urn - getting this from rays outdoors tomorrow
PH Papers -ordered from craftbrewer today

My Q's:

mash paddle - will the stirring paddle I got with my coopers HB kit do?
Siphon - is this neccessary given that I have a tap on the bottom of the urn that I will use to pour the wort straight into the cube?

Now im buying up the ingredients to make the good doctors GA and Tonys LCBA. So I think next weekend will be the day of reckoning, ive only done partials so far so im a bit nervous...but ill just dive in and give it a go I reckon


----------



## Renegade

Bizier's pattern, while it looks like it would work, is going to have you using a lot of material that's going to end up wasted. Unless you make a dozen dry-hop socks out of the waste. 

I'm going down to Spotlight at lunch to grab a couple of metres, so the "french seam' pattern is very timely. I'll report back with the store location etc if I'm successful with getting some. 

Hey Phoney, congrats man ! Bet you cant wait for that maiden voyage down the AG path !


----------



## Katherine

phoneyhuh said:


> Well ive read the checklist, the PDF, the first few pages of this whopping big thread, and the last few pages, but im still a bit unclear on a few things. This is what ive got so far:
> 
> Birko 40L urn - delivered today! yay!
> 3m of un-dyed voile cloth and nylon thread - going to have a friend sew a bag for me, basically in the shape of a grain bag but 5x bigger.
> hop sock, large - ordered from craftbrewer today
> Silicone Hose - Heavy Duty -ordered from craftbrewer today
> camping mat to wrap around urn - getting this from rays outdoors tomorrow
> PH Papers -ordered from craftbrewer today
> 
> My Q's:
> 
> mash paddle - will the stirring paddle I got with my coopers HB kit do?
> Siphon - is this neccessary given that I have a tap on the bottom of the urn that I will use to pour the wort straight into the cube?
> 
> Now im buying up the ingredients to make the good doctors GA and Tonys LCBA. So I think next weekend will be the day of reckoning, ive only done partials so far so im a bit nervous...but ill just dive in and give it a go I reckon



for the mash paddle go to bunnings and in the paint section get a paint stirrer there about $8.00, easier to agiate the grain then the stirrer, tho the stirrer is great for whirlpooling.


----------



## Phoney

Thanks Katie. 

So, with a recipe with a grain bill of ~10kg, how much water will I need to add? the PDF says 38L, which obviously isnt gonna work with my 40L urn. Will the figure beersmith gives me be accurate for BIAB??


----------



## Renegade

You can do 10kg grain in a 40L urn ? :huh:


----------



## Phoney

I dont know! 

Whats the maximum amount that I could mash in a 40L urn? Or could I split it and do it in 2 batches?


----------



## Katherine

phoneyhuh said:


> Thanks Katie.
> 
> So, with a recipe with a grain bill of ~10kg, how much water will I need to add? the PDF says 38L, which obviously isnt gonna work with my 40L urn. Will the figure beersmith gives me be accurate for BIAB??




are you going a double batch????? for your first brew? Bribie will be able to help you out on those measurements. Im not great with numbers and I have all my measurements at home. I brew in a 60 litre pot and have to use top up water for doubles.


----------



## Phoney

No, im doing the golden ale as my first batch. I was looking at doing Tony's LCBA for my second....but maybe im being too ambitious..


----------



## buttersd70

ummm....check the size of the batch in the database.....esp Tonys, his batch sizes are around the 50L mark...you'll need to scale it down. 

edit...smurtos GA uses just over 4kg for a 20L batch, Tonys is 52L batch size....scaled back it would be roughly about the same grain weight as the GA.


----------



## Renegade

Yea dude, your grain bill for a standard batch is more like 4-5kg. 

How much cheaper did your next beer just get !?


----------



## Phoney

Whew! That makes a hell of a lot more sense now.. Cheers guys


----------



## Katherine

mmmm I was thinking you were being a little ambitious for your first. your gravity would be extreme LOL!


----------



## Renegade

Katie said:


> mmmm I was thinking you were being a little ambitious for your first. your gravity would be extreme LOL!



It does beg the question though. What's the max. weight of grain you could BIAB in let's say a 40 litre urn for the sake of discussion. There's got to be a point when exctraction efficiency is going to be shocking, and a waste of extra grain for very little extra OG yeild.


----------



## Cocko

Renegade said:


> It does beg the question though. What's the max. weight of grain you could BIAB in let's say a 40 litre urn for the sake of discussion. There's got to be a point when exctraction efficiency is going to be shocking, and a waste of extra grain for very little extra OG yeild.



My way of thinking it would go like this:

You could mash 10kg of grain but you can only boil about 38L in a 40L urn, I assume, to avoid boil overs... So, 38L -15% evaporation leaving about 33L post boil and 10kg into a 33L batch is a killer SG!

10kg @ 2.5L per kilo = 25L plus grain displacement... you could do it! remove bag grain absorbtion at 1L a kg leaves you 15 litres and then top up....

2c.


----------



## reviled

Renegade said:


> It does beg the question though. What's the max. weight of grain you could BIAB in let's say a 40 litre urn for the sake of discussion. There's got to be a point when exctraction efficiency is going to be shocking, and a waste of extra grain for very little extra OG yeild.



Ive done 7.2kg of grain in my 30 litre batch and got just over 19litres into the fermenter!


----------



## Katherine

reviled said:


> Ive done 7.2kg of grain in my 30 litre batch and got just over 19litres into the fermenter!



Rev were you happy with that? did you need to top up? I know you sparge.

What do you normally get into the fermenter on a single batch?


----------



## reviled

Katie said:


> Rev were you happy with that? did you need to top up? I know you sparge.
> 
> What do you normally get into the fermenter on a single batch?



I was really happy with it, my eff only dropped 3 points over a 5kg grist!!

I guess the sparge is the 'top up' in a way, allthough if I just topped up with water my eff wouldnt have been as good. I normally do a 6L sparge and have the kettle pretty full for the boil, around 28L id say, then after a 90min boil ill get 22-20L in the fermenter with a couple of litres of wort/trub left in the kettle...


----------



## smollocks

Katie said:


> for the mash paddle go to bunnings and in the paint section get a paint stirrer there about $8.00, easier to agiate the grain then the stirrer, tho the stirrer is great for whirlpooling.



I've seen these and they are just mild steel with a thin coat of paint. In my opinion they're not likely to be food grade, and quite likely to flake into your beer if it gets a bit of rough treatment. I couldn't find something in stainless and with the right length so I just stuck with the standard 60cm white plastic spoon. It works fine.


----------



## Katherine

smollocks said:


> I've seen these and they are just mild steel with a thin coat of paint. In my opinion they're not likely to be food grade, and quite likely to flake into your beer if it gets a bit of rough treatment. I couldn't find something in stainless and with the right length so I just stuck with the standard 60cm white plastic spoon. It works fine.



ACTUALLY if you look at the ORIGINAL BIAB GUIDE, the paint stirrer I am talking about is recommended, you are thinking of something else as there is no coat of paint on it. Ill try to find a picture. I highly recommend the use of these espeacially when you are doing doubles and you get clumps.


----------



## Cocko

smollocks said:


> In my opinion they're not likely to be food grade, and quite likely to flake into your beer if it gets a bit of rough treatment.



It is only used pre boil so the food grade thing isn't a huge issue IMO... but yeah flaking paint would be...


----------



## Katherine

Cocko said:


> It is only used pre boil so the food grade thing isn't a huge issue IMO... but yeah flaking paint would be...




Great point there cocko.....

these have no paint on them... even a painter wouldnt want flaky red paint in his lovely white gloss. Maybe smollocks is seeing one that has being used by a painter and not a masher?


----------



## smollocks

Katie said:


> ACTUALLY if you look at the ORIGINAL BIAB GUIDE, the paint stirrer I am talking about is recommended, you are thinking of something else as there is no coat of paint on it. Ill try to find a picture. I highly recommend the use of these espeacially when you are doing doubles and you get clumps.



I can't remember what's in the original guide, but this is the one I'm talking about. Not trying to criticise anyone here, this is just my opinion  People could be using them without a noticeable problem, but I didn't like the look of them in Bunnings.


----------



## Renegade

smollocks said:


> I've seen these and they are just mild steel with a thin coat of paint. In my opinion they're not likely to be food grade, and quite likely to flake into your beer if it gets a bit of rough treatment. I couldn't find something in stainless and with the right length so I just stuck with the standard 60cm white plastic spoon. It works fine.



Yea, but a little bit here and there won't do any harm. It's not as if it's all going to flake off in a single brew. 

Off Topic (well sort of). Spotlight on Parramatta Rd, Lidcombe Power Centre have plenty of poly Swiss Voile, PLU code 1200199, I just grabbed a couple of metres.


----------



## Renegade

Katie said:


> On Saturday I did a double batch in a 60 litre pot I put 42 litres of water in originally, just under 10 kilos of grain went in



The question wasn't about double batches. But cheers anyway.


----------



## Katherine

smollocks said:


> I can't remember what's in the original guide, but this is the one I'm talking about. Not trying to criticise anyone here, this is just my opinion  People could be using them without a noticeable problem, but I didn't like the look of them in Bunnings.




yeah I agree with you on that one... that is not the one Im talking about. The one we use and also PP. Has a still end and silcone bottom.


----------



## crundle

Renegade said:


> It does beg the question though. What's the max. weight of grain you could BIAB in let's say a 40 litre urn for the sake of discussion. There's got to be a point when exctraction efficiency is going to be shocking, and a waste of extra grain for very little extra OG yeild.



From memory, the biggest amount of grain I have used in my 40 litre urn was a tad over 7kg, and I had to add the grain and then top up with water after it had been given a good stir for 10 minutes so it went right up to the top of the urn. If you wanted to go bigger, you probably could using a thicker mash ratio, but then you would need to do something of a hybrid sparge in order to not mess up your efficiency too much.

I have thought about this in the past but not actually done so, but it might be not too hard to use your bag with 10kg of grain, and an esky to mash in instead of the urn. Mash for the appropriate time at the right temperature (and amount of water for a thick mash), then hoist the bag, dump the first runnings into another container like a sanitised 25l bucket, and then sparge the grain in the esky with water that you had heated up in the urn. This should be able to avoid any issues with a stuck sparge, and will allow you to make a decent amount of a big beer. Sure you will not have the simplicity of doing it all in one vessel, but it also keeps much of the benefits of BIAB, such as no stuck sparges and easy cleanup.

Crundle


----------



## Katherine

Renegade said:


> The question wasn't about double batches. But cheers anyway.



What ever way you want to word it.. in a 40 litre with 10 kilo of grain is what WE would call a double batch.


----------



## Renegade

Katie said:


> What ever way you want to word it.. in a 40 litre with 10 kilo of grain is what WE would call a double batch.



Hands up how many people are doing double batches in a 40litre urn? 




Where's the tumbleweed icon?

Your posts are confusing, to say the least.


----------



## Phoney

Renegade said:


> Off Topic (well sort of). Spotlight on Parramatta Rd, Lidcombe Power Centre have plenty of poly Swiss Voile, PLU code 1200199, I just grabbed a couple of metres.



I went to a fabric shop in Marrickville. It was $8 a meter, so I got 2m.


----------



## Katherine

Renegade said:


> Hands up how many people are doing double batches in a 40litre urn?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where's the tumbleweed icon?
> 
> Your posts are confusing, to say the least.




Ok Smartie pants how much water are you going to be putting in your 40 litre urn with 10 kilos of grain? Who the f(ck would do that?

I brew and not just talk about it. Really who needs to be told what kind of $20.00 pot to buy... (and you have be told twice) you leave me alone and I keep away from you.


----------



## Renegade

Katie said:


> Ok Smartie pants how much water are you going to be putting in your 40 litre urn with 10 kilos of grain? Who the f(ck would do that?
> 
> I brew and not just talk about it. Really who needs to be told what kind of $20.00 pot to buy... (and you have be told twice) you leave me alone and I keep away from you.



Please show some contraint and try to stay on topic. This is a great thread with some seriously good information, and there is no place here for personal attacks.


----------



## Katherine

> you leave me alone and I keep away from you.



as I said... end/


----------



## Phoney

Anyway, back on topic...

Im just inspecting the exposed element at the bottom of my urn... Im thinking of getting a stainless steel colander from the supermarket like this one to pop over the top.







Is this the right way to go?


----------



## Katherine

phoneyhuh said:


> Anyway, back on topic...
> 
> Im just inspecting the exposed element at the bottom of my urn... Im thinking of getting a stainless steel colander from the supermarket like this one to pop over the top.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is this the right way to go?



I actually didnt go off topic I was just told that I did go off topic anyhow....


I think that would work, pretty sure that is what Pollux puts over his element.


----------



## bill_gill85

About a month ago, I posted [post="486529"]here[/post] asking whether it was worthwhile in attempting a BIAB in a 19L pot, wanting to try a Roger's Amber Ale clone. I finally got organised & have just got the fermentor sealed up. Being a first attempt at an AG beer, I don't have all the numbers & I don't know if it will be anything close to a Roger's but I can't wait to find out how it tastes.

Ok, the numbers I do have;

Recipe :

2100g Pale Malt
60g Bairds Dark Crystal
50g Bairds Medium Crystal
30g Bairds Pale Chocolate

22g East Kent Goldings [4.8%] (60 min)
24g Cascade [6.3] (1 min)

25ml Proculture Pro-10 Sierra Nevada yeast
0.25 Whirlfloc Tablet
0.25tsp Yeast Nutrient

Strike Water : 15L (68C)

Mash : 90 min (68C)
Boil : 80 min


Pre-Boil Gravity : 1.043 (volume unknown)
Post Boil Gravity : 1.052 (volume into fermentor 8.5L)

OG : 1.042 (after dilution to 10.5L)

Fermenting at 20C

I'd like to thank PistolPatch, Crundle & Thirsty Boy for providing a start point for getting into AG.

Cheers,

Ben


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

billgill said:


> About a month ago, I posted [post="486529"]here[/post] asking whether it was worthwhile in attempting a BIAB in a 19L pot, wanting to try a Roger's Amber Ale clone. I finally got organised & have just got the fermentor sealed up. Being a first attempt at an AG beer, I don't have all the numbers & I don't know if it will be anything close to a Roger's but I can't wait to find out how it tastes.
> 
> Ok, the numbers I do have;
> 
> Recipe :
> 
> 2100g Pale Malt
> 60g Bairds Dark Crystal
> 50g Bairds Medium Crystal
> 30g Bairds Pale Chocolate
> 
> 22g East Kent Goldings [4.8%] (60 min)
> 24g Cascade [6.3] (1 min)
> 
> 25ml Proculture Pro-10 Sierra Nevada yeast
> 0.25 Whirlfloc Tablet
> 0.25tsp Yeast Nutrient
> 
> Strike Water : 15L (68C)
> 
> Mash : 90 min (68C)
> Boil : 80 min
> 
> 
> Pre-Boil Gravity : 1.043 (volume unknown)
> Post Boil Gravity : 1.052 (volume into fermentor 8.5L)
> 
> OG : 1.042 (after dilution to 10.5L)
> 
> Fermenting at 20C
> 
> I'd like to thank PistolPatch, Crundle & Thirsty Boy for providing a start point for getting into AG.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Ben


Great , so no real drama's then! It just gets easier from now on. :icon_cheers: 
GB


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Great , so no real drama's then! It just gets easier from now on. :icon_cheers:
> GB



Well done Ben,

Now you have your maiden out of the way - as GB said, it just gets easier and more fun.

Small batches are a great way to get a bunch of brews under your belt and do a lot of learning - and after a while you will be so comfortable with your process that ways to tweak it will start occurring to you. Have a crack at them and I reckon you will be able to push your batch size up eventually. Maybe not to "full" size, but more than 10.5L for sure.

Welcome to the bag brigade

TB


----------



## bill_gill85

Yeah no problems, except for only being able to brew 10L at a time. :icon_cheers: Will probably have a bottle or three to spare though.


----------



## Bribie G

smollocks said:


> I've seen these and they are just mild steel with a thin coat of paint. In my opinion they're not likely to be food grade, and quite likely to flake into your beer if it gets a bit of rough treatment. I couldn't find something in stainless and with the right length so I just stuck with the standard 60cm white plastic spoon. It works fine.





edit (fresh from the mash, should have given it a wash and scrub up first  )


----------



## Katherine

and this was the one I was talking about, the red is silcone Im thinking.....


----------



## pdilley

Posting gear and ideas are we  

hehe

My BIAB secret weapon:


It has a short instruction manual. I'll show you it in action if you want 


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## pdilley

First I was planning on sewing my bag. But then I didn't before I tried the BIAB method 

Since that first try of the BIAB method, I found that it was not really necessary to cut and sew the bag. A square amount of voile uncut has all the strength of the original weave in tact and cleans and hangs nicely as is.

I also found that a standard Goo Tin Shipping Box donated by the LHBS to bring home bags of cracked grain is perfect mould and I already am a tiny bit bent on "reusing and recycling" recently so I kept on using the box. You simply stick your hand in the centre of the square of voile material and then you just push your hand into the box lining the mould. You open your various grain bags and simply pour them in. All the dust, flours, and grains are self contained in the box and this makes for quick and easy clean up as a benefit. Take your twine and snip off a small piece and gather the edges of voile hanging over the box and tie off the bag like a large dumpling bag. The dry grain holds the box shape rather nicely once you remove it from the box and makes for an easy time settling it slowly down into the brew pot once you've hit your desired mash temperature.


(1)
Cardboard box mould to place the voile in and pour the grain bags into. Tied off voile bag like a large dumpling bag.






(2)
Then I just use a length of twine uncut from the roll of twine to wrap around the top neck of the bag three times without tying and then a single wrap on the vent top and done. Bag suspended. The majority of the weight of the bag is taken up due to buoyancy once in the water. As you feel like it, you just take your fore finger and finger and pinch daintily the neck of the bag where it is tied and dunk your "jolly big tea bag" up and down with no effort at all and no splashing, or overflows. The bag is suspended above the bottom of the pot and is in no danger of burning against the bottom. The loose ends of the voile material simply wrap around the twine in a few turns and are out of flames way. Because its not tied on, just a second to reverse turn the voile and unwrap three turns around the bag and its free to lift out and begin the boil.


Secret Weapon #2 tin foil around the stove surface under the burner. Makes cleaning up a breeze.


I was also going to kit out the pot with ball valves. Found this to be unnecessary as well. A proper racking cane will easily transfer the liquid into the No-Chill Cube. Hose down to the bottom of the cube and a lovely transfer with little aeration. I was going to get more fancy with the racking cane, but when you clean it and sanitize it and rinse it its already full of water and already primed and ready to go. Three to five seconds into a bucket or spare jar or spare ALDI 2L juice container and the water is clear and the wort is flowing. Pinch the hose and in two seconds you have it lifted out of the bucket and into the No-Chill Cube.

I must be a strong buggar because I lift the bag out with no strain or issues.

Until I get my new 100 litre pot, in the kitchen the large 2-ring NG burner raises temperature 1C almost every 70 seconds. Efficiency would be better and times to raise temperature lower if I went with an all Aluminium pot instead of a Stainless Steel one. I'll also have a look at both electric and NG jet burners for getting the 100 litre pot up to the boil as single batch is the limit of the simple setup above.

For people just getting into BIAB, the guide could be used to show a range of kit outfittings from the simple to the complex. I was planning very complex and I am surprised at how simple I've left it.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## flattop

Sorry for the late addition to some things covered in earlier pages but i have been way busy and haven't brewed in a month or longer due to circumstanced out of my control.
RE the 10K grain in 40L urn.... yes i suppose it's possible, but lets face it, good brewers want quality not quantity (or maybe quantity of good quality) and hitting targets is going to be harder when balancing boil overs with targets really a larger vessel would be better.
RE the Bunnings paint stirrer, the time for stirring is when the grain is in the bag, the paint may flake (hardly desirable if it's Chinese lead toy paint) but at least when you remove the bag you remove the paint flake. Mine has been used for a number of brews now with no discernible issues, let me go one step further and say that compared to my conventional paddle it is far superior in it's ability to displace grain as the conventional mash paddle is too flexible to move a few kg of wet grain.


----------



## Phoney

That's awesome brewer pete. But doesnt having the lid off the pot lose too much heat during the mash?


----------



## pdilley

No. With the flame completely off the loss is about 1C per 11 Minutes. I do step mashes with rests of 20 minutes and the longest at 30 minutes. I also know that at flame out that the residual heat transfer will raise temperature 0.75 C anove flame out temperature in the pot. With reduced flame the temperature is maintained.

This knowledge of brew gear comes in handy for times when you say wheres my phone and drop the thermometer into your brew pot and without thinking 1 second later dash in after it and get burned. Ask me how I know 

With intimate knowledge of your brew gear through taking such notes with all the previous brew sessions, I can run the remainder of a mash on timings resulting from calculations alone and know I am close to 1 C of my targeted temperature. Lets me focus on more important things like tending to my hand 

Most of my brew sessions run on calculations and temp readings only confirm and bring a smile as I hit my calculated targets. With the setup above I have a pretty easy time as I know how long I can work on another project in the adjoining room before returning to adjust the flame.



Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## PistolPatch

phoneyhuh said:


> Well ive read the checklist, the PDF, the first few pages of this whopping big thread, and the last few pages, but im still a bit unclear on a few things. This is what ive got so far:
> 
> Birko 40L urn - delivered today! yay!
> 3m of un-dyed voile cloth and nylon thread - going to have a friend sew a bag for me, basically in the shape of a grain bag but 5x bigger.
> hop sock, large - ordered from craftbrewer today
> Silicone Hose - Heavy Duty -ordered from craftbrewer today
> camping mat to wrap around urn - getting this from rays outdoors tomorrow
> PH Papers -ordered from craftbrewer today
> 
> My Q's:
> 
> mash paddle - will the stirring paddle I got with my coopers HB kit do?
> Siphon - is this neccessary given that I have a tap on the bottom of the urn that I will use to pour the wort straight into the cube?
> 
> Now im buying up the ingredients to make the good doctors GA and Tonys LCBA. So I think next weekend will be the day of reckoning, ive only done partials so far so im a bit nervous...but ill just dive in and give it a go I reckon



Best of luck phoney!

If you want some dimensions on how to sew your bag up send an email to here and I'll email the relevant section of the BIAB FAQs.

Also, remember to read the corrections to the original guide in Post #1 of this thread, namely add the grain after heating the water not before.

If you need a hand with water volumes, PM me or email me on the link above or ask crundle or BribieG who have urns and knows their figures well. (Email is easier for me to keep track of than a PM.)

The paddle that Katie and BribieG pictured above is the correct one. *The one with paint on it won't give you as good agitation, is heavy and the paint is a no no.* A traditional mash paddle is unsuitable and in my opinion is also unsuitable for most mash tuns compared to these little beauties. The ones pictured work brilliantly with BIAB and traditional. The stem is nickel or chrome plated and the end is nylon so no problems there.

You won't need a syphon seeing as you have a tap on your kettle and the silicone hose. You will need to learn how to pull apart your kettle tap for cleaning as these can harbour infections even though they are exposed to high temperatures. Crundle or BribieG might be able to help you out there.

Also PM BribieG or Crundle on as to how to protect your bag from the element.

Another important thing is to have a decent thermometer. The one pictured at the top of the page here for $12.95 are usually quite accurate and available at most HBS. Start with one of these.

We'll look forward to hearing how it all goes.

:icon_cheers: 
Pat


----------



## PistolPatch

billgill said:


> About a month ago, I posted [post="486529"]here[/post] asking whether it was worthwhile in attempting a BIAB in a 19L pot, wanting to try a Roger's Amber Ale clone. I finally got organised & have just got the fermentor sealed up. Being a first attempt at an AG beer, I don't have all the numbers & I don't know if it will be anything close to a Roger's but I can't wait to find out how it tastes.



Congratulations Ben :icon_cheers: 

It looks as though you have done really well. I'm totally impressed!

Trusting that your first sip will be delish!

:chug: 
Pat


----------



## Bribie G

I just run the wort from the tap into the cube. As it gets nearly full it starts to froth out through the hole so I just run short bursts in until it's full ... the foam seems to retreat as it comes out and meets the cool air. I have bought a length of silicone hose but it won't fit over the urn spigot so I'm saving it for when I get a ball valve tap to replace the current urn tap and that should fit. No problems with hot side aeration which I reckon is probably an old wives tale but I'll eventually use the hose as an each way bet.

The hopsock is probably the best investement you will make. It's amazing how much the hops get boiled even inside the sock.


----------



## PistolPatch

Excuse the consecutive posts but there have been about 50 posts here in the last 2 days. This is my last one .



Brewer Pete said:


> This knowledge of brew gear comes in handy for times when you say wheres my phone and drop the thermometer into your brew pot and without thinking 1 second later dash in after it and get burned. Ask me how I know



LOL Pete!

Get some of those thick red rubberised chemical gloves from the hardware. They are tops for not only retrieving things but also pulling the bag .

Mate, you have been very creative! I have only one question and that is, "How do you stir the grain?" I give mine a stir fairly often to ensure even mash temperature and better extraction of sugars. Does the tied up bag pose a problem with this?

Whoops! That's two questions!*

Spot,
Pat

* Reminds me of the guy who goes to the lawyer and says, "Can I ask you one question for free?" The lawyer replies, "Of course you can. Now what's your second question?"


----------



## PistolPatch

Sorry, one more post and a very important one that I meant to do first.

Congratulations to BribieG and PocketBeers who did a great job in sewing up the BABBs competition. The BABBs guys are very skilled brewers so this is no small feat. The fun and games including a tongue in cheek post from ThirstyBoy can be read here

Top effort guys. Most impressive :beerbang: 
Pat


----------



## Phoney

PistolPatch said:


> You won't need a syphon seeing as you have a tap on your kettle and the silicone hose. You will need to learn how to pull apart your kettle tap for cleaning as these can harbour infections even though they are exposed to high temperatures. Crundle or BribieG might be able to help you out there.
> 
> Also PM BribieG or Crundle on as to how to protect your bag from the element.
> 
> Another important thing is to have a decent thermometer. The one pictured at the top of the page here for $12.95 are usually quite accurate and available at most HBS. Start with one of these.



Thanks Pat, you're a bloody legend 

I tested the urn today with 30L of water, started at 67.7C and 60 mins later it dropped to 65.7C. That's with a camping mat cut to shape & fitted around, then secured with electrical tape. I guess im either going to need to wrap it with a sleeping bag/doona and test again. Or test it with the thermostat on and set to 67C. Which is the preferred method?

I bought a digital probe thermometer from 'House' for about $25 that seems to be incredibly accurate, ive also bought a stainless steel colander that sits up side down over the element perfectly. 

One more question, once the wort is drained out down to the tap level, whats the best way to drain the remaining ~5L? Im thinking either siphon or a funnel and tip the whole fermenter on it's side.

I will email you for the other info soon. cheers


----------



## Bribie G

When you get the wort down to the tap level and assuming the cube is full by this stage, you can tip the rest into some sanitised glass jars (I have some proper lab bottles but V8 glass 1.5L jars are good) then decant the clear wort into the fermenter along with the wort in the cube. The lids of those juice jars can be a bit suss so you could just cling wrap them and they should be ok. I normally get about an extra litre and a half of usable wort that way.

Because everything is bloody hot at that stage I just wear a pair of suede leather / canvas gardening gloves about ten bucks from hardware stores.


----------



## PistolPatch

Phoney, I was just starting to write how I was totally unfamiliar with urns and was about to say that Bribie and crundle should be the urn advisors and there you have it - a post from bribie!!!

I have a few questions too Phoney for the urn experts...

1. How do you clean your kettle tap?
2. Do you stir the mash?
3. Is there any need for a camping mat? (Can you apply heat easily during the mash?)
4. What do you use to cover the element?

I know very little about urn brewing and always feel at a loss trying to give advice in this area. Some pics of how you cover the element would be great 

Look forward to your email Phoney though I am scared I won't be of much help compared to these guys.


Pat

P.S. Great to see that you already have most things sorted.


----------



## Bizier

I just want to say that my first BIAB nabbed a gold for Mild in the ESB comp, another small testimony to the merits of the method, even in inexperienced hands.


----------



## Bribie G

Urn tap should be cleaned every time, it's easy with a Birko. There's a knurled plastic knob ... hang on I'll fire up paint and do a piccie:

OK





The black plastic knurled top cover can be screwed off carefully and pull out the complete plastic tap assembly which has a soft silicone plug that seats down inside the metal tap body. Wash it and then you can get into the metal cast body quite easily with cotton buds or steel wool or whatever. I usually just run boiling water through it. The important thing is that sometimes hop fragments or hot break material can get caught up in the tap and cause infections. Then just screw the upper plastic assembly back on, very careful not to cross thread it, and slowly tighten up until completely sealed up again. :icon_cheers: 

A temperature drop of 2 degrees is fine. However probably better still to wrap the whole thing again in a doonah as well and you should get virtually no temp drop over an hour. Most of the conversion takes place in the first 20 mins anyway. 

I give the mash a good pump with the paint stirrer initially, then when I take off the doonah I then give it another good pumping. 

If you passively lag the urn effectively during mashing there is no need to apply heat therefore the element is not on so won't bother the bag.


Cheers
BribieG


----------



## Bribie G

Bizier that's f'n awesome! keep on bagging :icon_drunk:


----------



## reviled

Bizier said:


> I just want to say that my first BIAB nabbed a gold for Mild in the ESB comp, another small testimony to the merits of the method, even in inexperienced hands.




Great stuff mate! 

Just dont tell Maxt, or it wont count h34r: 

:lol:


----------



## crundle

PistolPatch said:


> Phoney, I was just starting to write how I was totally unfamiliar with urns and was about to say that Bribie and crundle should be the urn advisors and there you have it - a post from bribie!!!
> 
> I have a few questions too Phoney for the urn experts...
> 
> 1. How do you clean your kettle tap?
> 2. Do you stir the mash?
> 3. Is there any need for a camping mat? (Can you apply heat easily during the mash?)
> 4. What do you use to cover the element?
> 
> I know very little about urn brewing and always feel at a loss trying to give advice in this area. Some pics of how you cover the element would be great
> 
> Look forward to your email Phoney though I am scared I won't be of much help compared to these guys.
> 
> 
> Pat
> 
> P.S. Great to see that you already have most things sorted.



1 - I clean the tap after every brew day (sometimes brew twice in one day so not in between those brews) as outlined by BribieG

2 - I stir the mash as I am pouring in the grain, and then stir it for a good 5-10 minutes once it is all in. Then I stir it again at 15 minutes after wrapping it up, then once again at 30 minutes. I figure the hard work is done by then, and at the 30 minute mark I normally give it a burst of heat to bring up temp then wrap it up for the final 60 minutes undisturbed.

3 - I love my camping mat! It is the best thing I have bought for my urn yet. I have the sides wrapped the whole time (also during the boil) and during the mash I also have a circle of camping mat cut out to fit over the lid.

4 - No cover for the element in my Crown with concealed element, but I lift the bag up while applying heat to make sure. If you wanted, something like a colander or an 
Ikea foldable colander would work a treat.





plus 1 for using thick gloves for wringing out the bag when it is hot!

EDIT: it sounds like I only use the camping mat from what I wrote, but I use the camping mat alone when I am boiling and heating up any steps, but when mashing I follow BribieG and wrap the camping mat covered urn with blankets and a doonah to insulate it.

cheers,

Crundle


----------



## Katherine

Bizier said:


> I just want to say that my first BIAB nabbed a gold for Mild in the ESB comp, another small testimony to the merits of the method, even in inexperienced hands.




Its nearly time for a BIAB WIN REGISTER....

well done Bizier... :icon_cheers:


----------



## PistolPatch

Bizier said:


> I just want to say that my first BIAB nabbed a gold for Mild in the ESB comp, another small testimony to the merits of the method, even in inexperienced hands.



Top effort mate!

Please make sure you have more Gold beers for me to drink when I visit in Dec/Jan 

Spot!


----------



## pdilley

PistolPatch said:


> Get some of those thick red rubberised chemical gloves from the hardware. They are tops for not only retrieving things but also pulling the bag .
> 
> Mate, you have been very creative! I have only one question and that is, "How do you stir the grain?" I give mine a stir fairly often to ensure even mash temperature and better extraction of sugars. Does the tied up bag pose a problem with this?
> 
> Whoops! That's two questions!*
> 
> Spot,
> Pat
> 
> * Reminds me of the guy who goes to the lawyer and says, "Can I ask you one question for free?" The lawyer replies, "Of course you can. Now what's your second question?"




I find the tea totler technique of continual gentle agitation has not needed stirring for temp. And I have a long glass lab therm I buried down hard into the bag to get readings in the beginning. All the dunking motion gets the entire pot mixed well. I do a full spent grain inspection on every brew as it all goes into the veggie patch preparing the soil for this years hops plantings. So far no signs of hydration issues, clumping, etc. I will be doing a Belgian variant of hefeweizen hopefully this upcoming weekend so that will be a real good test of the setup. 

You can simply not tie off the bag in the beginning but wrap the single long piece of twine and with a twist of the two ends you have a temporary locking wrap held tight from suspension or change to a specialty knot (I have a sailing book with what looks to be over 20,000 knots ) but its hard to explain in words so I might have to get out the camera if I give a new tie technique a go.

I think the book is called "Ashleys Book of Knots", back when I was sailing...

I thought about gloves as well but that brilliant thought came a minute after nursing the hand.


----------



## PistolPatch

Thanks for the above Pete!

From your post above it sounds as though you have considered my worries really well. My internet access is via my mobile phone for the next few days so I have to be a little more brief than I am used to - lol!

Can you possibly post or PM me your figures using the template I put up recently in the BIAB Brewer Register thread?

While you're at it, tell BribieG to do the same as we need more urn figures!!!!


Pat

P.S. Yep, gloves are one cheap thing in brewing you think is money well worth spent!


----------



## mfeighan

im sort of new to biab, got quite a few under my belt now due to the weird hours i have free i was wondering is there anything wrong with
1) mashing in the morning 
2) straining bag
3) covering and leaving till i get home in the afternoon
4) boiling chilling fermenting


or... set mash @ 66 wrap in blanket and come back in the afternoon
i do double batches and when i wrap in a blanket i notice there is no need to turn on the burner during the 90 mins

however i guess it will drop to around 50deg by the time i get home if i left it this way. is this bad or can i get away with it without problems
it wont be a 8-9hr work day, usually about 5 hrs


----------



## PistolPatch

Mikey, I think that depends on what beer style you are brewing and how particular you want to be.

There are some threads here somewhere, if my memory serves me correctly, on overnight mashing and I can't remember there being any violent problems.

I think you would be best though leaving the bag in the whole time rather than straining it early. I can't see any downside to doing this compared to pulling the bag early.

Give it a go but if you come across a problem in the resulting beer, the first thing you should change is this ultra-long mash.


Pat


----------



## mfeighan

im still pretty new to AG brewing so not too particular or fussy on beer styles (yet), i like the clean flavors i get from lagers and pilsners but have just finished a keg of tony's bright ale and dr sumuto's golden both are yum

after your advice google hit this up
http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=30815

might just try that, set mash temp add grain go to uni come back and boil. may fix my lack of beer issue as i have a few empty fermenters and kegs less than half full


----------



## tumi2

Hi all 

I am going to have a go at my 3rd AG BIAB on Saturday. 

I am going to use Tony's recipe in the link for Little Creatures Bright Ale clone but I will only be doing a 27 litre batch. 

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/index.php?autocom=recipedb&code=show&recipe=301 

I have adjusted my hops amounts since the AA levels I have are different to the recipe. 

I am using S05 yeast as this is all I can get from the LHBS. 

Is anyone out there who has done this particularly using BIAB method? 

One question I have is with the 0 mins additions of Cascade and Saaz, should I put them in the cube for no-chill. And if so should I reduce it some what to compensate for the fact that the hops will be exposed to heat for about 10 hours as the liquid cools overnight. I only no chill for about 15 hours before fermenting. 

Also should I dry hop some more in the fermenter or is the 0 minutes hops basically used for aroma and little more flavour? 

The real LCBA is quite aromatic and has some nice medium bitterness. 

I am intending to mash for 90 mins at 66 degs. Is this OK? 

Another question, do I have to mash out by raising the temp to 78 degs? I have not done this before and don't really understand the reason for doing so. If someone knows where I can read about Mash out and why that would be good. 

Any ideas for this BIAB day would be great. 

Thanks


----------



## buttersd70

re mash out. In a commercial situation, it's done to denature the enzymes, due to the length of time it takes to lauter a batch on a commercial scale. So some people say it's not applicable to homebrewing....however, I disagree with that. raising the temperature for mashout helps to disolve sugars from the grain and into solution, and as such is particularly relevent for batch sparging and biab. As an analogy....add a teaspoon of sugar to water at ~65C.....add a teaspoon of sugar to water at 78C....which disolves easiest?


----------



## Thirsty Boy

In BIAB this step is also going to help to make sure you get clearer beer. Raising to a mashout temperature (while stirring the mash) is going to really help to make sure you convert all the starches to sugars. This will give you a "slightly" better efficiency, but more inportantly, it will stop unconverted starches getting into your kettle and maybe into your finished beer.

In a normal mash tun - the wort is much clearer and unconverted starches are mostly trapped in the grain bed - in BIAB significant amounts will get through the bag and into the kettle.

You don't need to raise the temperatures to mashout/sparge temps in a BIAB brew. It will very likely work perfectly well without it - but - Its my opinion that you are _more_ likely to produce consistently good beer if you do raise to a mashout at the end of the mash.

TB


----------



## Bribie G

You can do a *fake* mashout with BIAB by running off about six or seven litres of wort into a stockpot then put six or seven litres of near boiling water into the mash, stir like buggery then hoist the bag, and then pour the wort you collected back into the boil. 

Of course you end up with a bit too much wort so you need to be prepared to do a ninety minute boil to shrink it down to where it would have been with a sixty minute boil

The 'mashout' in this case gives you a bit of extra efficiency because it does a sort of a batch sparge and also raises the temp of the mash to make the sugar solution more runny and yield more fermentables.

Floats my boat


----------



## Bribie G

While I'm on this thread, a shameless plug for Gryphon Brewing's bag for BIAB

Just used one this evening, it is the bag that God brews with. Anyone looking at BIAB, the problem seems to be "what is Swiss Voile and how do I get a bag made ". My original bag was getting a bit Manky after 33 brews and I found that ordering a Gryphon bag, whilst upfront 43 bucks, (freee postage) saved me dollars over going to Spotlight and totally confusing the ladies there, then taking it to my sewing lady etc etc would have cost me more in petrol and hours of time.

no affiliation. 

And it hangs to a bewdiful tear drop shape without the dogs bollocks :lol:


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

BribieG said:


> While I'm on this thread, a shameless plug for Gryphon Brewing's bag for BIAB
> 
> Just used one this evening, it is the bag that God brews with. Anyone looking at BIAB, the problem seems to be "what is Swiss Voile and how do I get a bag made ". My original bag was getting a bit Manky after 33 brews and I found that ordering a Gryphon bag, whilst upfront 43 bucks, (freee postage) saved me dollars over going to Spotlight and totally confusing the ladies there, then taking it to my sewing lady etc etc would have cost me more in petrol and hours of time.
> 
> no affiliation.
> 
> And it hangs to a bewdiful tear drop shape without the dogs bollocks :lol:


Thanks Bribie , my mum gets such a big kick out of sewing these things when I tell things like that.Funny she has never had a drink in her life, may be God does have some thing to do with the bags. :huh: 
gb


----------



## bum

BribieG said:


> it is the bag that God brews with.



Being of three vessels himself I very much doubt God would be a BIABer.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

bum said:


> Being of three vessels himself I very much doubt God would be a BIABer.


No, its The Father, The Son and The Holy Bag ! Shite I did learn some thing at Sunday school.  
GB


----------



## Bribie G

bum said:


> Being of three vessels himself I very much doubt God would be a BIABer.



The Father, the Son and the holy bag  

edit: holy not holey


----------



## Dunno

Thanks for info on that Bribie.

I take it that if time, cost, effort etc are disregarded you would prefer to use the GB bag to brew? MY current bag still has a bit of life left in it yet but when the time comes to retire it would prefer just to have the best made bag for brewing.

Cheers
Dunno


----------



## malbur

phoneyhuh said:


> Anyway, back on topic...
> 
> Im just inspecting the exposed element at the bottom of my urn... Im thinking of getting a stainless steel colander from the supermarket like this one to pop over the top.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is this the right way to go?



Hi Phoneyhuh
This is what i made up to protect The bag in my 45 litre Woodson Urn.
its S/S mesh, that a mate had sitting around.


----------



## RdeVjun

Mikey said:


> im sort of new to biab, got quite a few under my belt now due to the weird hours i have free i was wondering is there anything wrong with
> 1) mashing in the morning
> 2) straining bag
> 3) covering and leaving till i get home in the afternoon
> 4) boiling chilling fermenting
> 
> 
> or... set mash @ 66 wrap in blanket and come back in the afternoon
> i do double batches and when i wrap in a blanket i notice there is no need to turn on the burner during the 90 mins
> 
> however i guess it will drop to around 50deg by the time i get home if i left it this way. is this bad or can i get away with it without problems
> it wont be a 8-9hr work day, usually about 5 hrs


Some opinions about longer mashes in a thread I started a while back. I've left one BIAB dunked for over four hours, no problems with the resulting brew and I'll also mash for 90 mins as a rule nowadays. I'll leave one overnight one evening when enthusiasm to finish it wanes while its on.

Oh, and top job by all the award- winning BIABers, much food for thought in all that. And as expected, there's the usual detraction, but I think the method's been mature for quite a while and this is just some more concrete evidence. I did mention in a post a while back that I saw mention of the process in a quote from a book that was written in the 70s.

Edit: clarify 'evidence'.
Edit2: the book is "Brew like a monk", but it actually quotes another recipe book. Just don't have it handy at the mo'.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

BribieG said:


> You can do a *fake* mashout with BIAB by running off about six or seven litres of wort into a stockpot then put six or seven litres of near boiling water into the mash, stir like buggery then hoist the bag, and then pour the wort you collected back into the boil.
> 
> Of course you end up with a bit too much wort so you need to be prepared to do a ninety minute boil to shrink it down to where it would have been with a sixty minute boil
> 
> The 'mashout' in this case gives you a bit of extra efficiency because it does a sort of a batch sparge and also raises the temp of the mash to make the sugar solution more runny and yield more fermentables.
> 
> Floats my boat



That's not a fake mashout - its as real a mashout as any I have seen. I would give it a few minutes after the addition and the stir to rest and convert ... but its pretty much going to happen in the pot anyway, so .....

Besides - its hard to argue with Bribies recommendations at the moment... he is the brewer of the hour. You could do a hell of a lot worse than to simply do everything exactly the same as Bribie G

TB


----------



## Phoney

Alright, the time is nigh! Going to LHBS and Bunnings tomorrow to pick up the last of my bits and bobs. Then ill be building a tripod with a swivel underneath for hoisting the bag.. Just one thing, could someone please do me a huge favour and checkout my beersmith file? Im not quite getting the same numbers as listed in the recipedb.

Cheers  :icon_cheers: 

ps: malbur; that looks great! I found a SS colander that fits over my element like it was made for it, ill see how I go with that and ill keep your design in mind.  

View attachment DSGA.bsm


----------



## Scruffy

phoneyhuh said:


> Just one thing, could someone please do me a huge favour and checkout my beersmith file? Im not quite getting the same numbers as listed in the recipedb.



What numbers? - the only thing i'd change is the 'Style' from American Amber (10B) to American Pale (10A) - then all the numbers line up (no '*bold*')... :icon_cheers:


----------



## Phoney

OK done. But even still the color shows 8.0 instead of 15. IBU is 32.9 instead of 36.4 Otherwise it's close enough..

edit: sorry I think might just be too pedantic :lol:


----------



## Scruffy

Stick 100 grams of chocolate in then...!!!


----------



## buttersd70

phoneyhuh said:


> OK done. But even still the color shows 8.0 instead of 15. IBU is 32.9 instead of 36.4 Otherwise it's close enough..
> 
> edit: sorry I think might just be too pedantic :lol:



Your colour must be set to srm....I dl'd your bsm file, and it shows 15.7EBC.....dont worry about the IBU...if you read the notes in the recipe db, smurto says that in beersmith it only comes to 31IBU.


----------



## katzke

phoneyhuh said:


> Alright, the time is nigh! Going to LHBS and Bunnings tomorrow to pick up the last of my bits and bobs. Then ill be building a tripod with a swivel underneath for hoisting the bag..



Tripod? Not needed by a regular guy. I used the hang over a pot or bucket method for the first few brews. Lifting the bag is not a problem for the average girl. I did convert to a small timber or 2X2 as we yanks call them stuffed in the handle of the kettle I use as a stand for my burner and keggle. Just the last 2 brews and only for convenience. I used a large spring clamp that fits the wood to hold the string from my bag so I can drain it into the brew kettle now. 

No need for fancy tripods or pulley systems. If you are brewing a bigger beer then you can lift you need to gain some muscle or tone down your brewing. Only strong people should drink strong beers. If my spring clamp can hold the bag then any brewer with out disability can lift the bag.


----------



## Katherine

I guess Im no average girl, as I love my pulley system to lift my bag.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Thats the thing with the whole skyhook/pully thing ... a normal healthy human most likely wouldn't need one to brew a single batch... but bloody hell its nice to have the pulley if its not an issue to rig it up.

And of course it doesn't need to be pulley ... it can just be a bit of rope tossed over a beam or hanging from a nice sturdy hook screwed into a door frame or something.

If you can - go the pulley - If its a pain in the bum to rig up... you certainly don't _need_ it to brew BIAB.


----------



## Bribie G

I love my pulley not because it makes it easier to hoist the bag (actually it's a single pulley not a multiple) but I can hoist then tie off the cable and it drains at it's own speed while I bring the wort to the boil, havafewbeers, etc. However it's quite possible to do a hoist n squeeze without a pulley especially if it's a smallish grain bill like this 4 kilo example, where much of the bill (maize) had been almost fully digested away by the enzymes.





Although it can be an energetic affair, cross between arm wrestling and strangling kittens


----------



## pdilley

PistolPatch said:


> Thanks for the above Pete!
> 
> *While you're at it, tell BribieG to do the same*




Mate, I know I'm good but I'm not "that" good to pull of miracles! 

hehe

Cheers,
Brewer Pete

P.S. I'm sure if you ply him with spicy beef vindaloo or better yet a recipe he will fill one out for you


----------



## Phoney

*update*

Mission complete! My brew day was a success and it went off without a hitch. Well, almost. Last night while I was cleaning my hydrometer rolled off the bench and smashed into a million pieces! So I ran down to kmart and got a brigalow hydrometer, it's accurate enough but the POS only goes up to 1.040! wtf. Oh well it's enough to get me out of trouble for this batch. Other than that it all went ok. It's easy once you know how, although it's not really any more time consuming or complicated than doing an extract + mini mash....

anyway, pics or it didnt happen!

water heating up with colander element protection in place






in go the grains






Oops, a little too high. So I kept the lid off and agitated the grains for about 10 mins until it dropped to 67.0C.






Mashing away






After 60 mins it dropped to 65.0C. Then I turned the heat back on and after 10 mins it got to 79.0C for the mashout. Close enough for my first attempt I reckon. 

Tent pole tripod pulley system in place






The dye ran from these welding gloves and made the bag go pink. :blink: 






Boil away






Drain into the cube






And its all done!






I guess the only thing ill do differently next time - besides getting better temperatures - is run a lead outside and have the urn out there. a) so that my laundry doesnt resemble a sauna for 60 mins, and b ) so that any spilt wort doesnt need to be mopped up!

Big thanks to Pistolpatch, BribieG and everyone else in this thread for all the helpfull advice... Here's to many more BIABs! :icon_chickcheers: 

Now it's time for the reward beer! Chimay Blue... :chug:


----------



## Bribie G

Good work. Re the squeezing the pink  bag into the pot, ALDI currently have really cheap and big plastic nappy buckets, I bought one. You can drop the bag into the bucket and do a mini sparge with two or three litres of very hot water, hoist on the tripod and chuck it back into the boil, less messy than a pot as well.





How big is the cube? There's a wee bit of headspace going on there and I would be looking for more exclusion of air but no big dramas if you are pitching soon. I use a 20L cube but it actually holds around 23L . 


However that's just small details and tweaks, well done mate.


----------



## Phoney

BribieG said:


> How big is the cube? There's a wee bit of headspace going on there and I would be looking for more exclusion of air but no big dramas if you are pitching soon. I use a 20L cube but it actually holds around 23L .




The cube is 25L, after it stood it upright I loosened the lid and gave it a squeeze. There's only about an inch of headspace there now. 

4 hours later and it's still hot to touch! I was hoping to seal the fermenter later tonight, but looks like it'll have to be tomorrow..


cheers.


----------



## crundle

Well done phoneyhuh!

Looks like a fairly textbook brewday, a few minor dramas and some lessons learnt for the next brew. The welding gloves can be supplemented by large size protective rubber gloves to give them that waterproof character, and during the mash try throwing a cheap doonah or some blankets around the urn to give it some extra insulation, you will find the temp will only drop about 1 degree that way over the entire mash.

ooking at the picture of the cube, it might pay to try to get some of the air out of it prior to sealing, normally accomplished by painfully squeezing the cube between the knees whilst tightening the lid, or as I have come to do, squeezing between the feet and the wall, as my tenders are a bit sensitive to just boiled wort!

Looking forward to hearing of many more good brews from you,

Crundle


----------



## nikgr

Dear friends my name is Nick and I am homebrewer of course, from Greece . I was amazed when I red about BIAB technique and I will try to learn as much I can , to try it as my first AG batch .Keep up the good work .I will promote and support this technique to my home forum to help spread this new technique.


----------



## PistolPatch

nikgr said:


> Dear friends my name is Nick and I am homebrewer of course, from Greece . I was amazed when I red about BIAB technique and I will try to learn as much I can , to try it as my first AG batch .Keep up the good work .I will promote and support this technique to my home forum to help spread this new technique.



Wow Nick - what a pleasure it is to have a Grecian aboard! A warm welcome to you from all us BIABrewers and all those here on AussieHomeBrewer.

I have seen that BIAB is going well or raising interested eyebrows on USA, NZ, English and Irish forums but I don't think we have a European ambassador yet. It looks like you might be the man!

If you have any questions, please just ask them and someone will get back to you within a short time. We might save you a bit of reading at least.

What forum are you on? Is it written in Greek or English?

Cheers to you :icon_cheers: ,
Pat


----------



## PistolPatch

phoneyhuh said:


> *update*
> 
> Mission complete!
> 
> Now it's time for the reward beer! Chimay Blue... :chug:



Phoney, I saw your post and pics on the weekend but never had time to post. I just sat back and enjoyed them. Thanks mate for a great post.

It was great to see you post and take all those perfect pics with such enthusiasm. I have no idea how you had time to do it! I loved the 1.040 hydrometer, sauna and spilt wort bits 

I've also been scanning your email whilst writing this. There are so many numbers in it my head is spinning - lol! We'll have a bit of fun though sorting out your volumes/gravities etc. I think for your next brew, we'll go through the process I just wrote in this post

Have a look at the 5 questions at the bottom.

Anyway, we'll talk more and congratulations :beerbang:,
Pat


----------



## nikgr

Thank you for your warm welcome.Our forum unfortunately is in Greek language and it is hosted by our local homebrew shop but is quite unbiased I can say .Homebrewing beer in Greece is just starting to move these days because of lack in homebrewshops (so far we have 3-4 in all country, most people here brewing wine ).So the only knowledge for us are foreign books and forums like yours.
Personaly I am new to homebrewing and I brew with extracts and I enjoy the procedure and the results and due to limited space (I live in a small apartment) so I identify my self as a stove top brewer (also I brew sometimes half batch 9.5 liters) so AG brewing with the traditional way is time and space consuming for my situation.Some piece of equipment like a German device " The Braumaister " seemed appealing but it is very expensive and then the BIAB method came like a gift from God actually I think and correct me if am wrong is a manual "Braumaister".So we discused here the BIAB method with some friends and we will try our first batch as soon as we found someone to lend us a big kettle.
I have some questions in mind in order to save time but I'll come back in another sesion
Thank you again for your welcoming


----------



## crundle

Hi Nick and welcome.

You will find that the change from extract to BIAB is minimal, and that you will be able to make the switch to BIAB quite easily. The kettle size you are after is likely to be around 40 litres minimum to be able to easily make a 23 litre batch of finished beer at a gravity of 1.050. Some people use 50 litre beer kegs (not sure how easy they are to get where you are) while others like myself use 40 litre urns.




If space is tight and you are able to get hold of them where you are, immersion heaters are great for heating up the water and boiling the wort.




If you are able to get them, camping mats are a great way to help insulate the pot during the mash and the boil (but not suitable for boiling if you are using a gas burner), while blankets and quilts are a good way to help hold in the heat during the mash







Good luck in getting your large pot, we hope to hear of your adventures shortly!

Crundle


----------



## Bribie G

Welcome, Nick. I was in Greece about 30 years ago and quite liked Greek Beer, but in those days there was a limited choice of Fix, Amstel, Alpha Beer and Henninger but I believe that Fix isn't brewed any more and the breweries are all owned by Heineken etc nowadays. So home brewing would be an attractive proposition there I guess. Also I remember Athens getting quite cold in the winter so you could brew some nice lagers there :icon_cheers:

For brewing in a bag you need to get a polyester material used to make curtains. Anything made out of cotton, such as cheese cloth, would not be very durable. Happy brewing.

Miki 

well that was my name when I worked briefly at the Athens Pepsi Cola factory on the road out to Marathon, on the right hand side of the road if it's still there, my fellow workers couldn't get their tongues around "Michael" :lol:


----------



## LLoyd

> In BIAB this step is also going to help to make sure you get clearer beer. Raising to a mashout temperature (while stirring the mash) is going to really help to make sure you convert all the starches to sugars. This will give you a "slightly" better efficiency, but more inportantly, it will stop unconverted starches getting into your kettle and maybe into your finished beer.





> As an analogy....add a teaspoon of sugar to water at ~65C.....add a teaspoon of sugar to water at 78C....which disolves easiest?



JUst mashed out my latest IPA and have some measurements..
05min 46.0%eff
30min 67.5%
60min  67.5%
after raising temp over fifteen mins to 76C
75min *72.4%*

Now I know my measurements are likely to be out slightly (I normally see a slight increase between the 30 and 60 min), but 4.9%points over fifteen minutes is significant!
I never used to mash out cos I thought "I'm pulling the bag out, so no need to kill the enzymes"
I will now....


----------



## nikgr

Dear friends thank you for your replies .
Speaking of eqipment so far I have found in the local market a 60 liters Aluminium pot measuring 45cm dia.X 37cm Height and it's affordable to me compared to Stainless Steel , you think is a good option or I have to wait a bit to buy the right stuff ?.For the bag material I will visit my local curtain material shop to find something similar to swiss voile and I think I will find something. For heating an immersion heater system as the pictured above is very appealing to me considering to brew inside in winter days and of course smaller footprint for storing the equipment after use.So if there are any recomendations or plans on how to built such a brewing pot is welcome my email is [email protected]
These are my thoughts for equipment so far . I keep reading on the method and I will ask for more techical stuff later on.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

60L aluminium pot will be just fine - almost perfect in fact. This will be big enough so you can do a single batch (20-25L) of any beer you want to brew without worrying about running out of room - 50L would probably be big enough if you can get one for less money - 40L is as small as I would ever recommend anyone buy a BIAB pot.

Aluminium is absolutely fine - I have over 100 brews in an aluminium pot and just bought a new one ... 60L aluminim, 45cm (diam) by 40cm H.

I like the immersion elements - a single 2400W element will do everything you need for a 20-25L batch and is a very versatile bit of brewing equipment. It will not heat and boil as _fast_ as a big gas burner would ... but if you don't mind waiting 10mins longer .. it does the job well.

If you are already brewing extracts - you obviously have stuff like hydrometers, fermenters, hoses etc

So the extra equipment you will need to brew BIAB is :-

A pot - miniumum of 40L
The Bag - 100% Polyester sheer material
A good thermometer accurate in the range 40-80C
A _big_ spoon, or some other way to stir the mash well. The paint stirrers that look like big potato mashers - are really good in a BIAB mash.
A chiller OR a container to No-Chill

It will make your BIAB experience easier if you also have:-

A way to suspend your bag over your pot. A rope and pulley, a hook in the roof - any of the things you might have seen in this thread that suspend the bag
A tap/faucet in your kettle. You can siphon your wort out of the kettle ... but a tap is much easier

And thats about it. When you aren't brewing.. you should be able to fit all your AG gear inside the pot. So it really wont take up much room at all.

Cheers and welcome to AHB

Thirsty


----------



## drtomc

Welcome also!



Thirsty Boy said:


> A _big_ spoon, or some other way to stir the mash well. The paint stirrers that look like big potato mashers - are really good in a BIAB mash.




Of course, we know they''re not really paint stirrers, or potato mashers. They're mash stirrers adapted for the mass market.  

T.


----------



## nikgr

Thank you again for your replies.The equipment I need as you mentioned is the pot , bag , and a chiller and of course a stirring device so I will try to get them as soon as I can to get started with BIAB brewing.


----------



## PistolPatch

nikgr said:


> Thank you for your warm welcome.



I think we all appreciate your interest and are grateful that you have taken the time to explore BIAB.



nikgr said:


> Some piece of equipment like a German device " The Braumaister " seemed appealing but it is very expensive... I think and correct me if am wrong, [BIAB] is a manual "Braumaister".



It certainly is and mimeryberg sent us pictures of the Braumaister in the early days of us exploring BIAB. He is currently working on building his own as you can see in this post. My goodness!

If you look back on these early days, you will see that I was also an apartment brewer (still am but now have outdoor space) and used to batch-sparge and then BIAB with my 3 ring gas burner. I always had a great sea-breeze in that apartment though .

I know little about BIAB brewing in an urn but I think it is certainly *the* way to go in an apartment - much better than what I used to do inside my old apartment. Crundle and BribieG above are both urn brewers and they are very willing to help new BIABers - good on them! They are really helpful brewers so make sure you ask them lots of questions. It's about time we all learned about urn brewing anyway as we have always been mainly focussed on gas rather than electric in this thread so far.

Anyway Nick, we will all look forward to helping you out and seeing a new thread here on AHB titled, "First BIAB done in Greece."

 
Pat


----------



## PistolPatch

LloydieP said:


> JUst mashed out my latest IPA and have some measurements..
> 05min 46.0%eff
> 30min 67.5%
> 60min  67.5%
> after raising temp over fifteen mins to 76C
> 75min *72.4%*
> 
> Now I know my measurements are likely to be out slightly (I normally see a slight increase between the 30 and 60 min), but 4.9%points over fifteen minutes is significant!
> I never used to mash out cos I thought "I'm pulling the bag out, so no need to kill the enzymes"
> I will now....



Excuse the consecutive posting but I have been busy for the last few nights.

Lloydie, good on ya! It's a great thing when people take the time and trouble to record and report their figures. I can't tell you how grateful I am to you and the others who have been sending me their figures since the post I did in the BIAB Brewer Register thread a while back.

As individuals, we can't rely on one-time measurements but as a group we already have some reliable and consistent data.

Currently, we don't have enough info on mash lengths versus efficiency. I really need to re-think the current template we are working on.

Thanks mate,
Pat


----------



## nikgr

PistolPatch said:


> I think we all appreciate your interest and are grateful that you have taken the time to explore BIAB.
> 
> 
> 
> It certainly is and mimeryberg sent us pictures of the Braumaister in the early days of us exploring BIAB. He is currently working on building his own as you can see in this post. My goodness!
> 
> If you look back on these early days, you will see that I was also an apartment brewer (still am but now have outdoor space) and used to batch-sparge and then BIAB with my 3 ring gas burner. I always had a great sea-breeze in that apartment though  .
> 
> I know little about BIAB brewing in an urn but I think it is certainly *the* way to go in an apartment - much better than what I used to do inside my old apartment. Crundle and BribieG above are both urn brewers and they are very willing to help new BIABers - good on them! They are really helpful brewers so make sure you ask them lots of questions. It's about time we all learned about urn brewing anyway as we have always been mainly focussed on gas rather than electric in this thread so far.
> 
> Anyway Nick, we will all look forward to helping you out and seeing a new thread here on AHB titled, "First BIAB done in Greece."
> 
> 
> Pat



You can count on that .I will do it for sure,Also I have deside to do it using gas and brewing outside at my balcony so my wife will stay calm no more stress about cleaning the kithen after a brewday.
I will try to gather all what I need and I will give it a go .For now I reading stuff about Allgrain and listening (I have listen it more than 3 times) the interview at the BasicBrewing radio on BIAB method.


----------



## mimerbryg

PistolPatch said:


> I have seen that BIAB is going well or raising interested eyebrows on USA, NZ, English and Irish forums but I don't think we have a European ambassador yet. It looks like you might be the man!



This guy in Tnsberg, Norway won a Beer Battle in his brewing club with BIAB in 2008
http://www.bryggeri.net/viewtopic.php?t=1618&start=315
(post number 4)

This guy in Sweden is also doing BIAB
http://www.humle.se/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=2396
(watch his signature)

In Denmark this group is also doing (a sort of) BIAB I think B) 
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1498...p;id=1064825291

No need to be modest here    

Regards
Flemming

PS: Beer Battle is "invented" in my local home brew club. 2 og 3 months in advance we agree to brew 2-4 specifik types of beer, and the the monthly meeting you bring some samples to let the other mebbers taste and evaluate. (http://aal-bryg.dk/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=330 - next time it is Trippel and Saison)
The most glorious winner of the year is the one, who make the best christmasbeer


----------



## PistolPatch

Have had a very busy 3 or 4 weeks and have fallen way behind or missed too much correspondence. Please excuse my slow reply Nick and Flemming and my apologies to some others I know read this thread but I still haven't got to in other correspondence. I'll be in Sydney for most of the next week (but have no time for beers :angry so expect more sub-standard communication.

*Nick*

Even though you have decided to brew outside, the BIAB brewing in an urn could still be worth investigating especially if you can never see the need for doing double-batches. Ask as many questions as you like here on using gas or electric. There are heaps of brewers that will help you out in this thread and everyone learns.

If you can see a need for ever doing double batches, then I think go gas and buy a 70lt pot. Before I had enough refrigeration, I used to put my fermenter in my 70lt pot, wrap it in foam and use ice bricks to control the ferment.

I have two 70lt kettles now but only double-batch if I brew with someone else. I am going to try "No-Chill," soon to make better use of my kettles and time but maybe, as an apartment brewer, I would have been better off having two urns? It is certainly worth considering.

No decision you make will be perfect Nick . Just try and make sure that whatever you buy you can see a use for down the track.

*Flemming*

Thanks for the links Flemming. I need to use the Google translator though and I don't know how  . I liked the pics though. Yep, I couldn't quite work out what they were doing in your last link. My goodness!


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## PistolPatch

One ramble before I go to Sydney  ...

*Syphon versus Ball-Valves - My Verdict*

Well, after 3 years of using an auto-syphon, I finally relented and drilled the holes in my 2 kettles for ball-valves.

I never had any major problems with the auto-syphon until they increased the internal diameter of the ones they sell here. The new ones basically are a nightmare. They pretty much don't work and were what prompted me to finally go for ball-valves.

I have now done one brew with the ball-valves and am now fully re-committed to coming up with an auto-syphon system that actually works.

Ball-valves might look good and give you a few moments pleasure on brew day as you open and close them and control flow but that's where it starts and that is where it ends. It's a bit like BIAB versus traditional for me where BIAB is awkward for a moment but in all other ways it is superb. The awkward moment is when you have to pull the bag (though even this can be made easy) but in doing this, you don't have to buy/maintain/clean two other vessels and you don't have to clean the grain from (and usually pull apart/re-assemble) a mash tun etc. (A lot of BIABers probably don't even realise how awkward it is cleaning out an esky from grain.)

But, nothing is more awkward than cleaning/sanitising.

What a pleasure my original auto-syphon was compared to these ball-valves! My original auto-syphon was a little inconvenient in some ways but nothing compared to ball-valves.

Here is what you should consider before drilling holes in your kettle for ball-valves...

1. Working out what valve to buy - This was a challenge in itself and I had to correspond with a high-tech brewer mate of mine just to narrow down what I should be looking for.
2. Working out where to source the auxiliary components - My experienced mate or myself could not find one retailer that had everything in stock at the time of purchase. I had to investigate, at great time/travel expense, the individual components and there weren't many. I ended up purchasing them from 4 different places. (Try finding SS washers and silicone O-rings for a start.)
3. Assembly - I finally got all the bits and had double O-rings and food-grade grease and Teflon tape (3 rolls). So now wrap any threads with Teflon to the right thickness (if you need a component to end up at a set point) and start assembling. (Also see 8 below regarding spanners.)
4. Now Test It - Well now that you have spent so long assembling your tap, you better test it because there is a good chance it will leak from somewhere. The only way to really test it is to fill your kettle with water. If it does leak, undo it all and start again. Or, you could risk it and wait until your kettle is full of liquor on brew day.
5. Ah! This is great!!!! - Yep, this is the bit you have been waiting for. This is the bit where you can swing on the tap and control flow etc. Enjoy it because it gets worse from here. Remember, this bit only lasts a minute. Now you can make things more fun by throwing a dice because now you have two alternatives...
6. Cleaning Alternative 1 - You could put some water (or even a cleaner and then a sanitiser) in your kettle and boil it. (This btw takes time and gas). Anyway, run it/them through your tap, opening and closing the tap ten or twenty times and then you might think your kettle tap is actually clean and sterile. If you do that, then cross your fingers. It is actually impossible to clean and sterilse a ball-valve without pulling it completely apart (thanks Doogiechap for educating me on this). Just ask one of the QLD traditional brewers here on AHB, who several years ago, lost 1500 lts of beer over many, many months and brews simply due to his kettle ball-valve. No one picked up on this and now he pulls it apart after every brew.
7. Cleaning Alternative 2 - You can get lucky or you can pull the ball-valve apart. I have pulled both mine apart after 1 brew and also a mates after 3 brews. My mates smelt ripe and mine were both already gummy and certainly smelt unclean even though I had opened and closed the tap a heap of times. So let's pull the taps apart. Agree?
8. Disassembly - Get three spanners out just to do the 3 piece ball-valve. You'll also need a few other spanners to undo the parts extending from the ball-valve. Make sure you undo the bits in correct order otherwise you won't have enough leverage to undo some bits. 
9. Cleaning Part 1 - Get rid of all the teflon tape you used in assembly. This is a bastard and will keep you occupied for a while. You will need a wire brush.
10. Cleaning Part 2 - Alkaline soak/scrub/rinse.
12. De-Mineralise/Sanitise 1 - Acid soak/scrub/rinse.
13. Assembly/Sanitise 2 - Get your teflon tape out, your spanners and your no-rinse sanitiser and go back to (3) above.

Necessity must certainly be the mother of invention because I just had 2 simple ideas on how to improve my faithful old auto-syphon. Cool!

I hope the above makes new BIABers seriously consider a stainless steel racking cane and syphon hose before they start drilling holes etc.

In the meantime, when I get back from Sydney, I'll see the stainless steel guy we use in my work, and now that I have a clear idea of what is needed, will see if he can make what I want.

Spot!
Pat


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## ausdb

PistolPatch said:


> One ramble before I go to Sydney  ...
> 
> *Syphon versus Ball-Valves - My Verdict*
> 
> SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP
> 
> I hope the above makes new BIABers seriously consider a stainless steel racking cane and syphon hose before they start drilling holes etc.



Hey Pat here's the salient point edited for brevity  , whether you BIAB or not there is a lot to be said for a stainless racking cane and regular changes of tubing for sanitary movement of wort or beer from one vessel to another!


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## PistolPatch

Mate, our talk last week was one of the inspirations for the above. You are the man!

Edit: What are all those snips? - LOL!


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## mimerbryg

PistolPatch said:


> <CUT>
> Thanks for the links Flemming. I need to use the Google translator though and I don't know how  . I liked the pics though. Yep, I couldn't quite work out what they were doing in your last link. My goodness!



Just copy and paste the link to this page
http://translate.google.com/?hl=da&sl=...en&prev=hp#

Regards
Flemming


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## sirotilc

PistolPatch said:


> One ramble before I go to Sydney  ...
> 
> *Syphon versus Ball-Valves - My Verdict*
> [Snip]



A couple of noob questions (5 BIABS so far) about ball valves. Is it necessary to dissemble the ball valve if you're no-chilling? i.e. does running 90degC wort through the ball valve for a few minutes adequately kill off the nasties to forgo dissembling every time? 

Which leads me to my next question - how on earth do you actually dissemble a ball valve? I looked at the ball valve on my pot last night after reading your post in the infections thread, and for the life of me I don't even know where to start.


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## Thirsty Boy

Pat is certainly correct on a number of points. They introduce complexity to your pot. They need to be drilled and installed etc ... and then they make general cleaning of your pot harder. AND if you chill your brew in the kettle (rather than Cf, Plate or No chill) then they represent a significant risk point for infection and if you use them you should seriously consider 3 part valves that you can pull apart - but then you actually have to clean them too.

But just to give a countering point of view....

$10 chrome plated ball valves and nice brass nuts and allthread from Bunnings have served me well for 100+ batches. Cleaned and sanitised by running detergent through them and opening and closing them frequently.

They have been off the kettle a couple of times.. but because they don't come apart, they have never been apart. I no-chill now, and this significantly reduces the issue of ball valves contributing to infections ... but there were 50+ chilled brews before that too, all without issue.

Ball valves, once installed - really are a fair bit easier to use than racking. They mean you aren't working over a kettle full of hot wort and if you chill in the kettle, mean that you don't have to open a kettle full of cool wort in order to drain it out - I would consider this to be as serious an infection critical control point as are the ball valves themselves.

At the moment - if I was to consider a brew where i chilled in the kettle, I would have to go to some effort to boil a pot full of water and recirculate it through the valve for a while (opening and closing often) before I thought it was good to go infection wise ... but I would consider that sufficient if less than completely fool proof. I may do it with wort during the boil.... As it is, I no chill and believe that that renders the issue null.

Not saying Pat is wrong, or even that syphoning is bad or hard .. its just that there are a lot of brewers out there having no issues at all with using ball valves and who think they are worth it.

It is good to see Pat continuing to challenge some of teh traditions -- it seems to be almost "lore" that you need ball valves ... which of course you don't.

I still like em though

TB


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## pdilley

I'm with pat, and I appreciate and respect others with valves and have done the extra yards to get them set up.

Racking is a piece of piss from the brew pot into a no chill cube.

1. You've sanitised the racking cane and tube.
2. Flush it with water from the tap, this pre-fills it with water.
3. Hold both ends up in the air. This traps water inside the tube and rack.
4. Place the racking cane into the brew pot at the same time bend down and point the end of the tube into a spare bowl or spare juice container.
5. In 1 to 2 seconds the water is done coming out and has pulled hot wort down with it
6. Point the tube into the no chill cube hole
7. Wait... done... cap no chill cube.


That simple. And no holes in the pot means you can sell it to a brewer or you can sell it to a chef or anyone really as you have not modified the pot.


Between #5 and #6 is the optional get a hose clamp and use that to clamp off the flow in the tube. Then point it into the no chill cube and undo the clam and the hot wort flows.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## PistolPatch

*sirotilc*: Ball-valves are very nicely machined, so well machined that you often can't see where the join is. Also, they can be bloody hard to pull apart the first time especially if they are two piece ones (i.e. the ones without four bolts). I split a mates the other day and had to use stilsons around the body of the tap and a huge spanner on the end. Ended up having to use my foot. Can't help you any more than that I'm sorry but if you post a pic up maybe someone can help you out more.

Also, bear in mind that as ThirstyBoy said above, heaps of people don't have any problems at all. I am ulltra-paranoid about everything..... Did you just hear that? :unsure: 

 

*Thirsty*: It's weird how so many people use ball-valves and never have a problem. I'd love to see a survey on how often people pull them apart, if ever, and whether they have had a problem. Every one I have pulled apart (my fermenter and dispensing ones plus those of other brewers) has always been dirty or infected.

There are quite a few brewers around who pay scant regard to hygiene and their beers are excellent. Quite funny really. I wonder, and I am serious here, if there is some bug that can infect your equipment, stop othrer bugs from competing against it and yet give no off-flavours? If anyone finds such a bug, they should sell it I reckon .

Gotta get me to Sydney so I'll spot ya ron,
Pat

[Edit: Missed your post Pete but I have been enjoying reading your experiments in other threads. Good stuff mate!]


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## reviled

Ive been asked to give a sort of BIAB presentation at the Auckland guild of beer and wine makers next wednesday :icon_cheers: 

Will update with how it goes B)


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## buttersd70

PistolPatch said:


> I wonder, and I am serious here, if there is some bug that can infect your equipment, stop othrer bugs from competing against it and yet give no off-flavours? If anyone finds such a bug, they should sell it I reckon  .



I'm fairly sure Muckey may have isolated that particular bug....he's one of the slackest buggers I've ever met when it comes to cleaning and sanitation, and bugger me, I don't think he's done a single (noticibly, and/or detrimentally (sp?)) infected batch yet.


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## ausdb

PistolPatch said:


> Mate, our talk last week was one of the inspirations for the above. You are the man!
> 
> Edit: What are all those snips? - LOL!



I was trying to save electrons by cutting out the fluff and getting to the point  

Like you I have had "infections from hell" and I found going back to absolute basics and being able to elimate contamination steps/ stages the best way to solve it wait till I start talking about buckets h34r: 

As far as pulling ball valves apart the first 2 piece one I tried to disassemble actually distorted and fscked itself when I cranked on it with a big spanner :excl: they actually come apart easier when a fitting is screwed into each end so they can't distort. But 3 pieces are the way to go even if they cost a bit more. TB's comment is interesting, some brewers have problems and some don't Tony's saga is food for thought, all down to one manky valve.


If you can't pull it apart then it not worth having is my motto :icon_cheers:


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## Thirsty Boy

I'd like to clarify my comments some

I absolutely do believe that ball valves are a critical point for possible infection and should be maintained in a clean state - the best way is to buy stainless 3 piece valves and disassemble them regularly.

I think it is much less of an issue for those who dont use an immersion chiller - but it is still a potential trouble spot. No more so than a bad syphon hose or racking cane - and no more so than having to open a kettle full of cooled wort (IMHO anyway) - but certainly one of the places to add to your list of basics to go back to if you have trouble, thats for sure.

That said, this is one of the areas where i have been a bit slack in my brewing - I am careful about insuring that the valves are as well cleaned as they can be without pulling them apart - and I no-chill ... so I think that is sufficient. BUT, I bet if I did pull my kettle valve apart.. it would have gunk in it, that gunk builds up to a certain level and its probably going to be trouble.

I have 3 piece on my current mash tun - and when my new BB mash tun arrives, it will have one too ... so the current one will go onto the kettle. Then I will be a "good" brewer - till now I have been a slack (ish) but lucky brewer.

Its just that there are lots of other brewers who are pretty much as lucky as me - so it would seem it's not all that lucky.

You could remove the tap - and boil it on the stove for an hour or so (better yet in the pressure cooker) - then any goo inside will contain nothing but dead bugs not capable of infecting your precious brew. Thats probably better than nothing.

TB


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## nikgr

Thank you again for your replies .I would like to ask something propably silly to you but I was a little confused.
Just for shorting my thoughts.Let's say that I buy that 60 litre kettle I was talking about .I have a lot of interesting recipies which they are for 19liter batch (5 gallons).If I dont want to complicate things and want to follow exact the recipie what is the total amount of water needed ? Also for smaller batches lets say 10 liters what size of pot is recomended?


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## katzke

nikgr said:


> Thank you again for your replies .I would like to ask something propably silly to you but I was a little confused.
> Just for shorting my thoughts.Let's say that I buy that 60 litre kettle I was talking about .I have a lot of interesting recipies which they are for 19liter batch (5 gallons).If I dont want to complicate things and want to follow exact the recipie what is the total amount of water needed ? Also for smaller batches lets say 10 liters what size of pot is recomended?



Now you are getting back to basics.

One of my big problems is with people that give recipes and do not allow for enough losses. Sometimes I have to adjust the recipe a bit because I actually end up with more wort then they say they do.

So the basics are how much beer do you want. Then add how much you leave behind in your fermentor, how much do you leave behind in the kettle, how much does the grain absorb, and how much water do you boil off when brewing. This will give you what you need to start with. I grew in gallons and with my system I need about 8.5 gallons to end up with 5 gallons of beer. It all depends on the brew and the grain bill. I brew in a converted 50 liter keg.

If you want to brew 10 liter batches I think a big stock pot would work. You can figure size based on recommendations of traditional sized brews. I am not ready to tackle metric conversions this early in my day.


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## Thirsty Boy

nikgr said:


> Thank you again for your replies .I would like to ask something propably silly to you but I was a little confused.
> Just for shorting my thoughts.Let's say that I buy that 60 litre kettle I was talking about .I have a lot of interesting recipies which they are for 19liter batch (5 gallons).If I dont want to complicate things and want to follow exact the recipie what is the total amount of water needed ? Also for smaller batches lets say 10 liters what size of pot is recomended?



It's not possible to give you a definitive answer - it will depend on how much you boil off in your boil, how long you boil for, how much your system ends up losing as losses to trub, how much grain your recipe calls for ... quite a few things. Pat has some nice information on how different systems behave and I am sure he will share with you.. but at the end of the day, everybody's system is a little different. You brew, get it a little bit wrong, adjust for next time and get closer and closer each time.

To give you an idea - to fill a 19L keg with a normal sort of beer, I'd say that you will be starting with between 30 and 33L litres of water in your pot. But it will vary a bit depending on your system and the beers you brew.

TB


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## nikgr

Thanks I was looking for this kind of answer just a typical amount of starting water needed.So I believe for 10 liter batch 20-25 liters is needed.


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## Scruffy

Hi fella, I use a 60l Chef Inox pot and gas, for a 20/23l brew (usually high gravity - lots of grain) I'm using around 34/38l of water. I boil the bejesus out of it for 90 minutes (if I've got the gas!) And cause I BIAB I get a lot of fine trub so lose a couple of litres there too, despite my best whirlpooling efforts... there's a bit lost in the fermenter when the yeast drops to the bottom as well. Most however is lost by drinking it! Hope this adds something...


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## Thirsty Boy

nikgr said:


> Thanks I was looking for this kind of answer just a typical amount of starting water needed.So I believe for 10 liter batch 20-25 liters is needed.



no, not that much. Its *not* as simple as 33L - 19L = 14 ... so for a 10L batch you want 10+14 = 24. Does not work like that. The amount of water is proportional to your grains etc. Here's how I work out water for BIAB.

For a 10L batch of normal beer it would be somewhere near: 

12.5 + 1.25 + 2.0 = 15.75L ... when you put your grain into that it will have a volume of around 17.75L so you could make this in a 20L pot.

How did I work it out ..

*12.5* = The volume of wort left in your kettle after the boil - you have to have enough left to leave behind break material, hops etc in the kettle and still put as much as you want into your fermenter. So if I want 10L of finished beer, I will lose about 0.5L to yeast at the bottom of the fermenter, I will lose about 1.5L to the trub and hops in the bottom of the kettle, and the hot wort itself will shrink as it cools, costing about 0.5L - this adds up to 2.5L. Therefore 10+2.5=12.5L is how much wort I want to have sitting in my kettle when I turn off the flames.

*1.25* = this much beer will use about 2.5kg of grain, you soak it in water, dissolve some stuff out of it, squeeze out you bag... and whats left over in the bag, absorbs some of your original water. In BIAB its about 0.5L for every kg of grain, if you give the bag a good squeeze. so 2.5 x 0.5 = 1.25L that you need to account for.

*1.75* - boil off. This is pretty variable and will depend on what pot you use, how hard you boil, how humid and or cold the weather is. BUT ... a reasonable figure to aim for and about what you will get if you use a 20L pot for this brew - is 15% of the starting volume per hour. OR to make it easier around about 2.0L per hour. Remember - thats an estimate based on what I get for boil off in my pot. Yours will be different. You should try a test boil in the pot you plan to use .. and substitute that figure for the one I have used. If you use your big 60L pot for a 10L batch ... you will lose a LOT more than this much, so I wouldn't use it for such a small batch.

So thats what I would start with for a 10L batch of finished beer - about 15.75L of water.

If you follow the logic I use above, you can do the calculations for any beer you brew, of any size. You just need to remember its an estimate, when you brew, try to record what actually happens with the amount of water, the amount you boil off, the volumes you leave behind ... substitute those figures in to the logic for next time... and you estimate will get better. Keep on doing it - and after a few brews, you will be able to start with just the right amount of water every time.

Thirsty


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## nikgr

Thanks again the reason for asking is that I might have the opportunity to borrow a immersion heater pot but is only 30 liters .And I was worried about the volume capability using Biab but if I can brew 10 liters is fine...


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## benrs44

G'Day,

This is my first post but I have been taking in as much as possible on these forums (particularly this thread) and having just completed my first BIAB I thought I would share my experience with anyone who might find it useful. Having done 1 kit and 2 partials prior to this brew what stood out to me is, bar a couple of small mistakes, how uncomplicated it is to BIAB. (I should make a quick thankyou to all those who have contributed and put up really valuable information for a beginner like myself - cheers!)

Note: Sorry in advance for any lack of photos/information but I am a pretty ordinary note-taker and was by myself so it was hard to take too many photos.

Recipe (Dave from Dave's Homebrew sorted me out with a simple recipe to get me started):

English Pale Bitter

4.5kg Pale Malt
50g Goldings (full boil)
14g Goldings (10mins)
14g Goldings (end of boil)
1tsp Irish Moss (30mins)
Yeast: S-04

90min at 66deg mash (I hit 64deg which ended at 62deg after wrapping the urn in blankets) raising temp to 75deg for the last 10-15mins
70min boil
Equipment: 40L Birko Urn
No chill (cube)

So my first mistake came with the amount of water in at the beginning - I was aiming for 19L of beer in the bottles but considering I have 15.5L into the fermenter it seems something has gone horribly wrong. My water calculations are as follows:
Desired beer 19L
Loss: from yeast 0.5L
Loss: from cube/kettle 1.5L (i think this should be more like 3L)
Loss: from thermal expansion 0.5L (no idea just threw a number out there)
That comes to 21.5L
Loss: from evaporation 3.25L (15%)
Loss: from grain 2.25L

Total Pre Boil water 27L (If anyone has any suggestions as to where I went wrong I'de greatly appreciate any suggestions)

The SG at the end of the mash came to 1.034 (24.5L at the beginning of the boil) and 1.043 OG into the fermenter. Unfortunately I forgot to take a measurement at the end of the boil to figure out how much I wort I had but Ill be sure to do that next time.

In summary, it was a great experience (took around 4hrs with washing up) and I would thoroughly recommend going down the BIAB path to anyone who is thinking of doing it. Next time around I think I will get myself a better thermometer, I'll set up and hook to hoist the bag and maybe look to chill the work straight into the fermenter. Here are a couple of photos from the day.




the urn wrapped up


bringing it to the boil


draining the grain


the urn pre boil


during the boil




my gravity reading tube after i put hot wort in - very dumb mistake


it was so laidback i even managed to get some uni work done during the boil


transfer to cube






in the cube

Cheers and thanks again for all the info that allowed me to give brewing a crack!
Ben


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## Bizier

Awesome first post there benrs44.

I did a double batch of mild last Sat... just emptied my bag now...

I have to say that it has started a vigorous exothermic biological degradation, and was pongy in a major way with a spot of treacle-ish mash runoff under it at my communal apartment clothesline. Do not do this people.

I also did my first no chill into 2 BMW cubes, same as pictured above. I filled one to the brim, and did not think about it expanding and taking another few litres of liquid. Anyway, if I get an infection before pitching, the thing will just blow because there is no room for expansion. So I have one fat and one skinny cube.


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## Bribie G

Looks textbook to me. The thing about a Birko is that it boils like buggery, and even what looks like a nice rolling boil can reduce the wort to a lot less than you budgeted for. 

What I do is a 'sparge in a bucket' to get a bit of extra efficiency: after hoisting and squeezing the bag into the urn, I put it into a nappy bucket and add about an extra six litres of very hot water, stir vigorously and then hoist the bag and drain the spargin's into the bucket. Then i chuck it into the urn with the rest of the wort. However I boil for 90 mins and find that this provides an almost perfect amount of wort at the end of the boil for a 24/25L batch.

I see you have a fairly minimal amount of lagging around the urn, what temerature drop did you get over the mash, or did you raise the bag a tad and apply some extra heat during the mash?

:icon_cheers:


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## benrs44

BribieG: I'll have to give that sparging a crack. When you say 'very hot water' are you talking near boiling? For the mash I wrapped the urn up quite considerably (as in the 1st photo - there are quite a few layers under there) and got about a 2-3deg loss ofer the 75mins. I didnt add any heat during the mash at all. I did keep some minimal insulation on during the boil so i think next time i might remove that and see if I get any less evaporation.

On the subject of boil off, can anyone with a 40L Birko urn let me in on their boil off figures? Hopefully that will help me calculate a little more effectively (if only I had actually remembered to take a post boil reading...)

Cheers!
Ben


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## Power Wolf

Evening all,
for the BIAB brewers in the know what's a 30l urn like compared to a 40l.... I've been on the hunt for a cheap one being a broke ass student most the time but have seen these 30l ones which are a damn sight cheaper http://cgi.ebay.com.au/30-litre-coffee-urn...id=p3286.c0.m14.

I guess not having done an all grain yet am curious whether I could still get a good batch rocking in a standard fermenter but i guess from what I know it's gonna be harder to make a good sized batch witha small urn, I want to make standard 21l batches if possible.
Is there anything in particular i should be shopping for besides a built in thermostat?? A little help??? Cheers!


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## LLoyd

In the end it comes down to knowing your system. YOUR 60L pot may have a different surface area for your wort than MY 60L pot. Boil off is not accurately estimated as a PERCENTAGE of your volume, cos that doesn't allow for the DEPTH of your wort. Surface area, intensity of your boil and specific gravity will affect your boil temp hence your evap rate. Fine tuning is going to be a trial and error thing, so the best thing is to measure and record your volumes and gravities EVERY step of the way, so you can tweak your next brew in the right direction..


----------



## Darren

Still dont understand what is wrong with a piece of drilled copper tubing under the mash. 

Perhaps you are all mummy's boys and have yet to realise that "fabric' is inferior and a waste of your time and your mother's effort 8)

cheers

Darren


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## crundle

Power Wolf said:


> Evening all,
> for the BIAB brewers in the know what's a 30l urn like compared to a 40l.... I've been on the hunt for a cheap one being a broke ass student most the time but have seen these 30l ones which are a damn sight cheaper http://cgi.ebay.com.au/30-litre-coffee-urn...id=p3286.c0.m14.
> 
> I guess not having done an all grain yet am curious whether I could still get a good batch rocking in a standard fermenter but i guess from what I know it's gonna be harder to make a good sized batch witha small urn, I want to make standard 21l batches if possible.
> Is there anything in particular i should be shopping for besides a built in thermostat?? A little help??? Cheers!




For a 21 litre batch of finished beer, you will want to end up with approximately 23-24 litres of wort at the end of the boil allowing for hot break, cold break and fermentation trub. Working backwards you will need about 31 litres preboil to get that, which is going to make it tight in your 30 litre urn, but not impossible.

If you are sticking to fairly average gravity beers of about 1.050 SG, then you could mash a bit thicker than normal for BIAB, say 5kg of grain in 24-25 litres of water (try to get the urn as full as possible while being able to stir the grain in a bit) and do something akin to Bribie's sparge in a bucket to make up the rest of the volume to 31 litres. Of course you can't add all of that to the urn until you have achieved some measure of boil off to make room, but it is not impossible, just a bit of juggling.

You will then be on par for a 21 litre final batch size as a normal BIAB preboil volume is around 31-33 litres in my system (40 litre urn). Your hop utilisation should be close enough to normal to not worry about, and your overall efficiency should be up to comparison with if you used a 40 litre urn.

Having said all this, I have not tried it myself, but I can't see any good reason why it wouldn't work well enough for you, and if the price difference between a 30 and 40 litre urn is enough to make or break getting into AG, then so be it.

As for looking for things in urns, I like the Crown's concealed element now that a hack has been made to get as good a boil as a Birko, but others who have Birko's report no real hassles with the exposed element, just that if you need to add heat you need to be a little more careful about the bag not getting burnt. But most people heat up the water initially and then insulate the urn with blankets etc which wont need to be heated up again till mashout anyway.

cheers,

Crundle


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## Bribie G

Darren said:


> Still dont understand what is wrong with a piece of drilled copper tubing under the mash.
> 
> Perhaps you are all mummy's boys and have yet to realise that "fabric' is inferior and a waste of your time and your mother's effort 8)
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



And I still don't understand why the principles of BIAB apparently have gone right over your head, considering that you have obviously been around brewing for several years. However from the somewhat shrill tone of your post you've obviously had a few tonight so you are forgiven 

Edit: at the risk of blowing my own trumpet BIAB hasn't been a waste of _my_ time, it won me a kegerator, a table of trophies and a trip to New York which sadly I was unable to take up on this occasion but ask me the same question next year :icon_cheers: So what has your little copper tube done for you, Daz ?


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## LLoyd

Darren said:


> Still dont understand what is wrong with a piece of drilled copper tubing under the mash.
> 
> Perhaps you are all mummy's boys and have yet to realise that "fabric' is inferior and a waste of your time and your mother's effort 8)
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren


Nothing at all.... But my F&#$%@' DADDY made my bag so I could control my overall mash temp to .02C without having to build me half a garage worth of frames and such, plus Mumsie wouldn't go BOTH of us for stealing THREE of her stock pots..


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## reviled

Did a presentation on BIAB at the Auckland Guild of Wine and beer makers last wednesday, mostly a bunch of older blokes and half of em allready do AG brewing, but they were very receptive to the idea and intrigued... I passed around some bottles of Cream Ale which I have on tap atm and they all agreed that it tastes just as good (if not better  ) as any other AG beer!

I basically pointed out the benifits of BIAB brewing, being that its quick, easy, cheap to set up, and doesnt take up much room!

My highlights - 

1. A kit brewer keen to give it a go as he was allways put off by all the gear, time, and expense you need to do trad AG brewing.
2. A wine maker who has never bothered with brewing beer because of all the equipment needed is going to give it a go! 
3. Several people told me if they knew about this before they built their 'rigs' they probably would have gone down the BIAB route instead :beerbang:


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## Bribie G

Reviled, compared to yourself 80 percent of the adult male population would be 'older guys' :lol: :lol: Congratulations on spreading the love. 

Here's an example of an AHB member getting off his arse and making a genuine contribution & helping fellow brewers in their quest for better beer. Contrast this with a previous poster who only contributes trolling and whining about a method they don't even use themselves and have no personal experience of. On his visit here earlier in the year Reviled was luggage-challenged and could only bring a limited selection of some 330s of various brews, but based on those, Reviled is surely set to make waves in the NZ brewing community. 

:icon_cheers:


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## buttersd70

All AHB users, and in particular BIAB brewers and / or no-chillers may well be interested in reading the article that is in my signature.

<_<


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## manticle

Darren said:


> Still dont understand what is wrong with a piece of drilled copper tubing under the mash.
> 
> Perhaps you are all mummy's boys and have yet to realise that "fabric' is inferior and a waste of your time and your mother's effort 8)
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



Hi Darren,

I'm going to waste my time and respond to you.

(By the way - I use a copper manifold).

Any simpleton could understand that the main justification for brewing in a bag is because it provides similar results to other forms of AG brewing but uses less equipment. The reasons for doing it, as opposed to the way you (presumably) and I brew should supposedly be fairly logical to all but the most retarded.

Cheers

Andrew

PS. I suppose you could always get on with your own brewing and leave other people to theirs?

All the best

A


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## Bribie G

Manticle, you got it in one

However you could have saved your fingertips and posted a more succinct version:


"Darren, why oh why do you bother?"

B)


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## Thirsty Boy

If you keep on clip clop, clip clopping over his bridge .... what do you expect him to do?


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## katzke

Will through in my 2 cents American about people that mindlessly criticize BIAB.

It motivates me to brew better BIAB beer then they can with all their equipment. So all you BIAB critics keep it up. 

Awards personally won with BIAB, First, First, and Third. I was even thinking of skipping the next competition but now I am committed to entering.


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## dj1984

BIAB IMO is the best way too start making AG beer, i started the traditional way with a mash tun and kettle using the kettle at a HLT too .

The last thing i bought was an urn which took longer as i had too get all the bits and Pieces befor i could brew.

Now if i just bought the urn too start with i could have been brewing AG alot longer.

I have had a few BIAB beers from Crundle and i cant find any difference between mine and his.

So for all the new guys wanting too get into all grain i recommend getting yourself some "fabric" and starting BIAB, later on if you want to go three vessle you already have a HLT.

Dont worrie what other people say about BIAB being inferior i have had both and they are the same quality.

Cheers
DJ


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## Bribie G

Totally off topic but when I was a lad in the UK after the Second World War in the fading days of the aristocracy, you would occasionally see rich people standing by the side of the road in the countryside, with some luggage, next to a couple of big black Bentleys or Daimlers. The cars hadn't broken down, they were waiting for their other cars to come and fetch them. Heres how it was:

Many wealthy people had a country house and a town house (for example a 500 Acre estate in Oxfordshire and a three storey terrace in Belgravia in London - both residences with a set of servants) and when they went into town for the weekend they would be chauffeured to the meeting place in their country cars. Their town cars, driven by the town chauffeurs, would come out and pick them up. Why didn't they just drive into town in one go? Because it was too far to drive without tiring the horses pulling their coaches, which is how it was always done in the past. When cars were invented it just didn't occur to them to do anything differently. They knew that there was only one way to do things.

Nowadays of course they just hop in the Maybach and cut out all the old fashioned stuff.

I often think about BIAB like that, gets you there quicker with less faffing around and less equipment required


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## crundle

Brewed with my largest grain bill yet today, 9kg for a Doppelbock. I kept worrying if the bag would burst or not, but that good old Swiss Voile held together like a trooper. Ended up sparging with about 4 litres of water to help extract the grains that were just not going to be squeezed out since I didn't have gloves to help with the burning, but it worked out a treat and I have ended up with 23 litres of very thick wort indeed in my cube to hopefully pitch tomorrow with the saved yeast cake from a Munich Dunkel. Preboil gravity came to 1.072, but no figures yet on post boil till I crack the cube tomorrow, but was aiming for 1.090 or so.

Now it has me thinking that if my efficiency didn't suffer too badly, I might be able to make double batches of 'normal' gravity beers in my 40 litre urn this way. Any thoughts?

Crundle


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## Bribie G

crundle said:


> Brewed with my largest grain bill yet today, 9kg for a Doppelbock. I kept worrying if the bag would burst or not, but that good old Swiss Voile held together like a trooper. Ended up sparging with about 4 litres of water to help extract the grains that were just not going to be squeezed out since I didn't have gloves to help with the burning, but it worked out a treat and I have ended up with 23 litres of very thick wort indeed in my cube to hopefully pitch tomorrow with the saved yeast cake from a Munich Dunkel. Preboil gravity came to 1.072, but no figures yet on post boil till I crack the cube tomorrow, but was aiming for 1.090 or so.
> 
> Now it has me thinking that if my efficiency didn't suffer too badly, I might be able to make double batches of 'normal' gravity beers in my 40 litre urn this way. Any thoughts?
> 
> Crundle



Hmm. 
What you are saying is the equivalent of doing a normal brew in a 20L urn. I would say yes, but with serious efficiency issues. On the other hand with a 40L urn there are tweaks that you could use such as a really serious sparge in a bucket to bring the pre boil wort in the urn up to about 38 litres and control the boil to avoid frothing. Also depending on the style such as UK Bitters, Milds and Aus Standard lagers you could add 500g of sugar or more (in the fermenter) and remain true to style.

I reckon we could just about do it, but don't aim for more than about a 4% ABV or thereabouts beer.Try it and let us know how you get on (bribie makes bullet and crundle fires it :lol: )

My 2c


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## katzke

crundle said:


> Now it has me thinking that if my efficiency didn't suffer too badly, I might be able to make double batches of 'normal' gravity beers in my 40 litre urn this way. Any thoughts?
> 
> Crundle



You may need to adjust the hops some for normal beers. Seem to recall hops like lower gravity so you may end up with less hop then you wanted in your final lower gravity split batch beer.


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## RdeVjun

crundle said:


> Now it has me thinking that if my efficiency didn't suffer too badly, I might be able to make double batches of 'normal' gravity beers in my 40 litre urn this way. Any thoughts?


Yep, as Bribie says, this does work, Bjorn also wrote up his experiences recently. I actually do something similar to this most of the time, but just at the standard 20-23 litre scale, while I don't think there's any real problems upscaling to 40 or more. 
I know its not really what is being asked, but I'll outline what I do and you could probably just double the numbers. My method: I use 3- 3.5kg of grain and a 19 litre stockpot and always bucket sparge. Start with about 14 litres of water, mash as per usual, lift & twist the bag (no need to drain completely at this stage), then drop it into about 5 litres of hotter sparge, stir and let it sit for 15- 20 minutes, lift & twist then allow it to drain completely. It usually yields about 15 litres of fairly strong wort (1.060+) which I can either boil as is or dilute to about 18 litres (see below about hops though). I'll be diluting it again before pitching, usually target OG is mid- 40s, but also keep in mind its a very full stockpot and has to be watched like a hawk for boilovers.
Because of the pot size limitations, obviously I can't do a standard strength boil for 23 litres, but this method seems to deliver the goods while keeping batch size up around the normal 21-23 litres. It is also a dirt cheap way to start AGing, seriously, all that is needed is a BIAB bag and a 19 litre stockpot. A second smaller pot is handy for heating sparge water, although a kitchen kettle will usually suffice. Sparging in, and draining the bag into a different pot or bucket whilst the big stockpot is heating up for the boil means having another larger vessel on hand, but most domestic kitchens and households have something useable that can be pressed into service.
So for less than $50 anyone with some ingenuity and a bit of determination can have a shot at AG, while BribieG's BIAB with an urn tutorial is an excellent guide, most of the steps I use are described in it, just brilliantly I might add, Bjorn's step by step is terrific for this as well.


katzke said:


> You may need to adjust the hops some for normal beers. Seem to recall hops like lower gravity so you may end up with less hop then you wanted in your final lower gravity split batch beer.


Yep, the higher gravity ( >1.050) boil is less efficient at utilising hops, so adjustments are needed to keep the hops strengths right. I posted a chart in Bjorn's thread, here it is. 
Hopping levels are one thing that I've not been completely satisfied with and hence I investigated and started doing some adjustments.


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## Thirsty Boy

crundle said:


> Brewed with my largest grain bill yet today, 9kg for a Doppelbock. I kept worrying if the bag would burst or not, but that good old Swiss Voile held together like a trooper. Ended up sparging with about 4 litres of water to help extract the grains that were just not going to be squeezed out since I didn't have gloves to help with the burning, but it worked out a treat and I have ended up with 23 litres of very thick wort indeed in my cube to hopefully pitch tomorrow with the saved yeast cake from a Munich Dunkel. Preboil gravity came to 1.072, but no figures yet on post boil till I crack the cube tomorrow, but was aiming for 1.090 or so.
> 
> Now it has me thinking that if my efficiency didn't suffer too badly, I might be able to make double batches of 'normal' gravity beers in my 40 litre urn this way. Any thoughts?
> 
> Crundle



It depends on how much trouble you are willing to go to - add a sparge, get a few litres extra, add a bigger sparge - a few more litres - concentrate the boil a bit - drip feed the wort into the boil - all sorts of stuff.

Invest in a few extra buckets, another decent sized pot, an eski to use as a HLT - and of course you can brew more... basically you are moving closer to 3 vessel methods, and they brew larger volumes than the mash tun can hold all the time.

A bit of foam control, a bit of care and a bit of dicking around - and there is no real reason why you cant finish your boil with 38L or so in your 40L urn

BIAB is limited in its volumes - only if you choose to keep your life simple - if you're happy to complicate it you can stretch the process quite a way.

TB


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## troopa

Thirsty Boy said:


> BIAB is limited in its volumes - only if you choose to keep your life simple - if you're happy to complicate it you can stretch the process quite a way.
> 
> TB



Apart from the word Bag, i recon that is the most important comment related to BIAB

I have a 60L pot and up till recently was happy doing 23-25L brews.. but of course life and need "Made" me want to do doubles 
Its certainly easier to do it in a 60L pot then a 40L urn but still requires a sparge of around 10 Liters 

With a little forethought and timing i lose nothing except maybe 5-10 mins of my time including cleaning the extra gear 
And by my time i dont mean brew time i mean sitting on my but waiting for for FWH addition so nothing really lost 

But of course an 80L pot is the goal as funds become available 

Tom


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## crundle

Due to time restraints caused by having to go to work on my last brewday, I didn't get to sparge as much as I would have liked, nor boiled for as long as I would have liked (around 120 minutes or more to be able to boil off a larger volume of water). Accordingly, my brewhouse efficiency in Beersmith moved from its normal 75% to around 65%, leaving me with a SG of 1.084 when I pitched my yeast slurry today.

Not to worry, will put it down to experience, but I think next time with a large beer like this I will be aiming for a minimum 2 hour boil and more sparging to concentrate the wort more. Thanks for the hop utilisation chart RdeVjun, that is now in the garage to guide me for my next big beer adventure!

FWIW, my Doppelbock is now bubbling away nicely in the fermenting fridge at 9 degrees using a hefty slurry from the previous Munich Dunkel, so I can take a hit on efficiency for this brew.

Crundle


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## RdeVjun

crundle said:


> Not to worry, will put it down to experience, but I think next time with a large beer like this I will be aiming for a minimum 2 hour boil and more sparging to concentrate the wort more. Thanks for the hop utilisation chart RdeVjun, that is now in the garage to guide me for my next big beer adventure!
> 
> FWIW, my Doppelbock is now bubbling away nicely in the fermenting fridge at 9 degrees using a hefty slurry from the previous Munich Dunkel, so I can take a hit on efficiency for this brew.


No sweat Crundle, I forgot to mention one important point, that the chart is designed to be used with post- boil SG, which makes it kinda tricky to use, but if you have a feel for how your setup performs then this should be no problem. It is plenty good enough as a guide and I know now from experience roughly where things will be before and after the boil. So far the changes I've made to my stock/house beer (a Landlord-esque ESB) have supported the chart and the theory behind it as I'm far happier with it now after some hops tweaking.

BTW, why such a long boil Crundle? I actually mash and boil for 90 minutes each and had thought that was probably tearing the fork out of it just slightly, mind you I've not made many of those big beers. Just curious...

Also, just on mash left over, I've yet to partigyle or make up a small beer as I'd say sparging for the primary mash the way I do any subsequent wort would make a pretty puny beer, but will give it a go one day. I find bucket/dunk sparging pretty straightforward and with some preparation doesn't take much if any extra time- I put the sparge water on the heat before the mash is complete so I can do my sparging while the primary pot is coming up to the boil. But if I find myself in the position of being unable to sparge, then I'll do a fair dinkum small beer, otherwise its partigyle for me. If BIABing without any sparge, there's a fair whack of SG points, and other goodies of course, remaining in the mash that can be used constructively, something to keep in mind folks.

FWIW, I've never been overly concerned about efficiency with this method, although initially I was fairly sceptical. My aims have been to knock up low/mid-40s OG ales with 3.5kg of malt and it works most of the time (so around 75%), maybe a litre or two short sometimes. If it comes in a lot lower then I've been known to throw in some sugar or malt extract to top it up (in ESB/SBs sugar is fine), but generally its not necessary.

And +1 for Troopa and Thirsty's sentiments- IMO, if you're prepared to fart about a bit with this BIABing caper, the sky really is the limit! :icon_cheers:


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## crundle

The long boil is an attempt to basically boil down more than 40 litres of wort in a 40 litre urn. Since I can't physically fit that in (in space) I can fit it in (in time). So the plan is to start the boil with 30 litres of wort (first runnings by equivalent) and then to add the sparge wort steadily over the first hour or so till I am getting around the gravity I am after for the volume I want.

I could just boil it down for a smaller volume of greater gravity, but to get both the volume and the gravity I am after from it, it seems to me that the longer boil is the go. More stuffing about I accept, but since it is a lager anyway I think that the last of the sparge wort I add should get the benefit of at least an hours good rolling boil to keep the nasty flavours at bay.

I normally just squeeze the bag very well using rubber gloves to keep the pain away, but for a grain bill of 9kg it just doesn't get the same results, so nowdays I follow Bribie (as always it seems - clever bugger he is!) and give it a sparge to help it along a bit. What is a bit of extra boiling really? I now set my hops schedule around the volume in the urn, so I wont risk adding my hops too soon and end up with an understrength wort or an overhopped wort.

When I get to about 30 litres of wort during the boil and the gravity is at my target for my preboil estimate according to beersmith, I know that in one hour I will get my wort volume down to 24 litres, so I start my hops schedule at that point.

I like the idea of making a small beer with the runnings, but then I think of having one less glass of my big beer and chicken out!

I will have a play with this idea again on my next big beer (thinking aging a RIS for next years mid year swap) and see how the prolonged boil goes.

Thanks for the input, it is great to bounce ideas off of others to see that maybe I am not quite as crazy as I sometimes think I might be!

Crundle


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## Bribie G

I have a feeling that the Czech traditional breweries, while they are still traditional - Heineken have bought Urquell for example - boil for 2 hours, but maybe that's to get rid of DMS. I actually owe the sparge in a bucket idea to a forum member in either Maryborough, Hervey Bay or Bundy .... I completely forget who it was, there are so many brewers up Wide Bay Burnett Way ... until then I was doing a 'mashout' with boiling water and still doing the long boil, but I reckon the sparge is giving better results.


----------



## RdeVjun

BribieG said:


> I have a feeling that the Czech traditional breweries, while they are still traditional - Heineken have bought Urquell for example - boil for 2 hours, but maybe that's to get rid of DMS. I actually owe the sparge in a bucket idea to a forum member in either Maryborough, Hervey Bay or Bundy .... I completely forget who it was, there are so many brewers up Wide Bay Burnett Way ... until then I was doing a 'mashout' with boiling water and still doing the long boil, but I reckon the sparge is giving better results.


Cheers BribieG, whoever it is, I myself owe them a big thanks! It seems like such a natural continuation of the mash process for me, I found there was such an enormous yield, plus it suited my equipment, I wouldn't even dream of skipping it, if I did it would probably only be to facilitate a small beer along with the first big beer.

Yeah, with longer boils on a few lagers I did recently with polenta, I approached it with 90 minutes and the lid completely off in mind and it seemed to ensure that any potential DMS/ maize thing was taken care of fairly well. FWIW, I only slightly uncover the stockpot lid with ales, but keeping in mind with my particular concentrated wort method I'm not trying to reduce the volume at that stage, more the opposite and keeping the volume up as much as possible to help with hops utilisation. So far I've not encountered any problems with flavour, although I've never entered one in a comp and, certainly haven't scooped the pool like you have!

Being on rec leave for a fortnight (largely a 'staycation' :angry: ) gives me an opportunity to look at BIAB partigyle/ small beers and also reslants (1768, 1469 etc), I'm just clearing the decks presently to do all that. Will post the results! :icon_cheers:


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## Hashie

Sorry to be a PITA, but I can't be shagged reading backwards to find how you blokes sparge.

You say you do it in a bucket so I will hypothesize and say you use 1-2 litres less in your mash, raise your bag, drain and squeeze. Then put the grain bag in a seperate bucket and add 1-2 litres of ~80degree water, then add these runnings to your kettle.

Am I close?


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## Bribie G

No probs hashie, if you go to the other All Grain forum "beginners" I've put a tute on BIAB with an urn which is at the top in the airlocked section, and there's a picture of my bucket-o-sparge. The idea is to hoist the bag as normal and after draining and squeezing into the pot or urn, dump the bag into a bucket ... nappy buckets are good as they are decent quality plastic and quite big, then put in about six to eight litres of very hot water, over 80, stir around, then hoist the bag a second time, drain and squeeze and tip the runnings into the boiler / urn, which you will have been heating up in the meantime. Now this gives you a bigger volume of wort than you need, but a 90 minute boil will get you back to a good volume. :icon_cheers:


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## RdeVjun

Whasamatter hashie, the thread is only 1400- odd posts, where's your sprit of adventure??!! Come on man, get a grip!!  

In all seriousness now, I'm doing things just a bit differently from BribieG with a 19L stockpot instead of a 40L urn (link), so what I do is use about 15L in the pot for mashing. After the usual 90 minutes, lift, twist and then drop into the bucket. The bucket has about 5 or 6L in it and has been heating up to >80C while the mash was finishing, but I have a stainless bucket (from my past dairying days) and a handful of other stockpots to choose from so I can heat it directly, with a plastic bucket obviously this won't work and it'll perhaps mean a few domestic kettles- full, but best start this heating before the mash is complete. Leave the bag in the sparge bucket for 15- 20 minutes, give it a few stirs while in there to extract the last few points. While its been sparging I'll have had the 19L stockpot back on the gas and heating up for the boil. Then after sparging, lift the bag, twist and drain completely, add that to the boil, it will usually be about 4L of 1/3 to 1/2 the SG of the primary wort.

As an aside, interestingly, I skim the first lot of scum off the almost- boiling wort and then add the sparge water. This cooling seems to precipitate another large crop of scum which is duly skimmed. Now, I am not sure if the two are linked, but I've found that clarity of the final product is fantastic, even when bottled from primary and with only ~5g gelatine per batch. This could be the less- is- more thing that Butters mentions elsewhere perhaps, but I am mindful of this when I see other folks struggling with clarity as I seem to have no hassles other than a bit more yeast in the bottles.

The volumes aren't critical for me as I'm diluting later anyway, this dilution thing is the trade off I make by doing it on the scab. As far as costs go though, considering that I was brewing extracts at the time, purchasing a whole BIAB AG rig for me left almost enough change out of 50 clams to get my first AG batch on. Like I've said elsewhere, I already have most of the necessary kit for a traditional 3- vessel system but I don't really see the need knock it together now. :icon_cheers:


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## Bribie G

Rde sent me a sample of his UK bitter (thanks for that postal tube, I used it to send some of my UK bitter to Tidal Pete :lol: ) and until recently I had no idea that he was brewing in such a small pot. The beer was more than acceptable and was quite a hopburst as well. :icon_cheers: so the method is clearly producing some nice drops.


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## pdilley

As another BIAB clarity note, I ran my Amarillo Ale BIAB on a multi-step mash regime similar to my hefeweizen regime and it has come out absolutely beautifully clear as could be. Only additions I do to boil is the whirlfloc and then no-chill cube to fermenter to bottles to serving glass as the path it takes.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## troopa

BP is there any chance you post your recipe and step times / Process for that unless you already have and i missed it 

Thanks Tom


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## pdilley

Troopa said:


> BP is there any chance you post your recipe and step times / Process for that unless you already have and i missed it
> 
> Thanks Tom



Here you go Troopa:

Brewer Pete's Amarillo Ale and Hefeweizen BIAB Mash Schedule
43C ferulic acid rest
62C beta amylase rest
72C alpha amylase rest

Originally done with Amarillo Ale to work out bugs in BIAB before Hefeweizen brewing but turned out such a lovely ale (combined with a 2nd pitch from trub of US05 at 21C fermentation temperatures) that I will keep on knocking out standard Ales after the clarity I saw resulting in Amarillo Ale.

Unlike non-BIAB AG brewing, you don't have to worry about dough in temperature losses. My system loses no heat so I dial in exactly 43C.

I achieve dough in temperature in about 50 seconds!

How? Hot Water straight from the tap. The house's biggest gas burner (in the hot water heater) has me over 43C in temperature just by filling the BIAB pot. I have to put a few rounds of 2L countainers of cold water at the end to bring the temp down to an exact 43C. 

Mash Step #1 Heat up the primary water (32l) to 43C, BIAB bag in, keep it there for 20min.
Mash Step #2 Heat up the pot until water is up to 61-63C and rest for 30min.
Mash Step #3 Heat up the pot until water is up to 72C and rest for another 30min.
Last Step #5 Heat up the pot to 78C and BIAB bag out.

While the pot is reaching boiling and just slightly after (10 minutes or so) my BIAB bag is draining in a gigantic funnel sitting in a 5L flask on the counter. I pour this liquid (up to sometimes 2L) back into the boiling wort.

Whirfloc in last 10 minutes or so of boil after all the hop additions are done. No aroma hopping I always toss them directly into the No Chill Cube and siphon the wort into that, then outside at night to cool. Wake up and bring No Chill Cube inside. Pitch that day after work. Ferment out at 21C to bring out some fruityness in US05 while still maintaining the clean side of US05.

Hop Schedule was 20/20/20 for the Amarillo I ended up with. (If memory serves right - coming down with something so bit foggy headed)

For hefeweizen besides the grain bill, I can add in organic flours including a pinch of Rye for a slight Rogenbier-isation. Adding pure flours is simply something you can not do in non-BIAB systems as you always are in fear of the "Stuck Sparge".



Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## troopa

Thanks Pete 
I was curious about the times and process of that
Can you say add the grain before the 43 and keep bringing the temp up till you hit it and then rest?
or is that detrimental?

Tom


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## RdeVjun

Whoa, thank you- now I'm blushing! Seriously! Those postal tubes are mighty handy, fit a Coopers PET quite cosily. :beer: 
I had my doubts though initially and thought I'd be stuck doing smaller batches with just this kit but it gets me across the line along side all you big boys. A few others (BjornJ, TroyDack- sorry to name- drop!) are reporting similar successes too.

I occasionally use whirlfloc, but of late I've usually forgotten about it! Doesn't seem to matter much though, gelatine gets a heap of flocculation and deposition happening wherever its used. I'm not all that fussy either- I'll drink just about anything while for my main style (a TTL-esque ESB/SB) it is not all that significant anyway, but nevertheless pleasing when it drops bright.

Brewer Pete, do you add the extra few litres of wort gained through the funnel all in one go, or dribble it in to keep the boil happening? If the former, do you notice much scum reforming as it comes back up to the boil? BTW, thanks for the step info.


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## pdilley

Troopa in my case i'm way too hot until I add cold water so its bad for me to add the bag in until I'm dialed in temperature wise. Its generally been the practice to set your beginning mash temp before dough in.

RdeVjun I am a no skim brewer so all that break just stays in and gets a free ride through the no-chill cube and fermenter. And in the trub which was harvested and repitched with no issues.

I have done both slow dribbles and one big dump. Amarillo Ale got the one big dump only because I was rushed for time and didnt get my bag drained as early from being split between multiple projects. Disrupted the boil but it started again and no issues in the finished beer.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## RdeVjun

Brewer Pete said:


> RdeVjun I am a no skim brewer so all that break just stays in and gets a free ride through the no-chill cube and fermenter. And in the trub which was harvested and repitched with no issues.
> 
> I have done both slow dribbles and one big dump. Amarillo Ale got the one big dump only because I was rushed for time and didnt get my bag drained as early from being split between multiple projects. Disrupted the boil but it started again and no issues in the finished beer.


No sweat Pete, I'm not bothered either way really, but now that I've heard that your methodology is similar to my own, I am curious. Like I say though, I'm not convinced if skimming and clarity are linked in any way, the latter matters not for my stock ale. Perhaps its just happy coincidence- there are multitude other factors at play anyway, one of which I'm sure is my random application of whirlfloc... 
Thanks again though, always appreciate your insights.


----------



## Hashie

Thanks for the replies Bribie and RV. I'll give it a go next brew day, hopefully Tuesday. I've got plenty of spare nappy style buckets hanging around.
Will let you know if there's an appreciable difference in efficiency.


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## troopa

Brewer Pete said:


> _*Its generally been the practice to set your beginning mash temp before dough in*_.
> 
> Cheers,
> Brewer Pete



Is there a reason for this or is it just one of those things that has followed on from the days of mash tun brewing ?

Understanding burning bags and all that. Ive rectified it with a solid 3mm perforated ss mesh about 35mm above my exposed element that i have i can now ramp my temp up with the bag immersed in the pot 

Im not sure if im making sense but im just trying to think outside the box a little thats all and im not sure if its been covered before

Certainly not in the last 6 months

Tom


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## Thirsty Boy

It's nothing to do with BIAB, or with bag burning - its to do with basic mashing theory. You set your dough in temp... because you have a reason for doughing in at a given temp. If you dough in low and try to raise the temp, you are bringing the mash up through all the intervening temps on the way... and stuff is happening. BP doesn't mash in at 43 just because it seems like a good idea - its a ferulic acid rest... which promotes the production of (surprise) ferulic acid which is a precursor to 4VG or the clove flavour you get in a hefeweisen. It also happens to be a good temperature range for Beta-glucanase activity. And it necessitates BP raising his mash through almost the entire range of effective protein rest temperatures on teh way to his first sachrification rest at 62 (which is probably what is making him notice a clarity difference)

Temperature rests are for a purpose. Setting a specific dough in temperature - is because you want to achieve something at that dough in temperature. For most BIAB mashes - its going to be your target sachrification temperature. A temp chosen to give you the balance you want between fermetable and unfermanteable sugars. Doughing in at lower than normal sach rest temperatures - is going to potentially affect your head, clarity, mouthfeel, flavour balance, wort viscosity and a few other things too. Not necessarily badly... but affect it it very well might.

Now, I see nothing wrong with the "reason" for a lower dough in temp being "thats what comes out of my hot tap" - but understanding a little about whats likely to happen at that temperature, will help you get your brew right with a bit less trial and error. Certainly your beer will turn out differently than it would if you doughed in at a mid 60s sach rest temperature - maybe better, maybe worse, maybe either of those two things on different beers - but different it will most likely be.

TB


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## PistolPatch

I'm going to post up a hopefully helpful spreadsheet in the next post but before I do, can I first apologise for dropping the ball with quite a few people...

Before I left for Sydney, there were several BIAB-related threads I was involved in and was meant to reply to but I still haven't and I can't see myself getting time to.

Since then, there has also been a heap of stuff come up that I would love to comment on but once again have lacked the time.

We have had BribieG write a great guide on BIAB urn brewing (which I want to read thoroughly) and I have not even said, "Good on ya!," let alone asked him if I can copy it to BIABrewer.info.

There have been a heap of people do well or very well in competitions that I would also love to say how great it is to read their posts let alone the new threads of people doing their first BIAB.

And then you have someone like Brewer Pete post how he dumps his bag in a funnel to drain. How clever and simple is that?

There is lots more stuff to comment on and I truly hate not having the time to acknowledge them.

It is long past the stage where I have a choice to both be active here and write up new BIAB guides etc. I have been failing at both. So maybe I better just say that until I have written some new guides etc for here and BIABrewer.info, I will only be able to read here with pleasure rather than write.

What I am trying to say  is that I will still answer emails and PMs thoroughly but am going to take a back seat on the forum side of things. (This doesn't mean I won't post up any corrections to bad advice though .)

Thanks and my apologies,
PP


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## PistolPatch

This is a draft of a spreadsheet I want to include in the BIAB FAQs. (This is a sub-topic of this thread I can be active on so you can expect a reply  )

View attachment BIAB_Equipment_Set_Up_Volumes.xls


Whoops! Meant to write how to use the spreadsheet but forgot! Just change the red figures. Does that make sense?


----------



## pdilley

Thanks PP and Thirsty.

For the beginner, to simplify it for uptake into the brain, there will be two basic mashing techniques. The Single Mash Temperature and the Step Mash. The Single is well, simple, and so most likely it is in the BIAB guide but understand that it is a compromised temperature for all the mash enzymes.

Multi-Step and rest points let you favour more enzyme groups.

No matter what your understanding both lead to the same end result which is converting starch in the grain into sugars.

George Fix had a multi-rest schedule that became very popular with the home brewer:
40C + 30 min rest
60C + 30 min rest
70C + 30 min rest


Because BIAB guide promotes ?66C? You skip the liquefaction rest at 40C and instead use a temperature that makes for a dextrinous beer which produced a dry, light bodied beer with slightly more alcohol content for a given grain bill weight.

For a Multi-Stepper who wants to make lagers or finds they are getting way too much Malt (my hand is not up  ) in their resulting wort for their own personal tastes then George Fix recommended:
50C + 30 min rest
60C + 30 min rest
70C + 30 min rest

You can play with the times as well. If you want to go very dry and light bodied in your final beer than you can decrease the amount of time you rest at 60C and increase the time you rest at 70C.

I have the dead tree version of Palmers book but there is a small graphic of mash temperature ranges and nothing really shows up as happening before the 35C to 45C range which is your initial liquefaction range where as mentioned above the Beta Glucanase enzyme and the general starch "De-branching Enzymes" are happening.

If its too much to take in for now just go with the first basic 3 temperature mash schedule starting at 40C above and you'll do a lot better with your Ales. As time goes on you can study each one in more detail and then see if you are interested in that temperature/enzyme range for the style you are wanting to make.

Would be nice to have the multi-step in the guide just to mention what to do after your first few brews where you stayed single temp only to help you get used to the whole process before worrying about temperature control.  -- Then again I have not read the guide in a bit now and not sure what the latest revision(s) added if any.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## troopa

ThirstyBoy and BrewerPete Thanks so much for posting that information

Im not even gonna say i have a basic knowledge of mash temp rests except that i knew i had to do it around the 65 mark (But i think you guys guessed that)
What i did think though is that raising the temp up through the high 50s low 60s to 65ish after lowering the bag in wouldnt of made much or any difference as i wasnt resting at those ranges

Funny though cause that certainly isnt easier then just reaching dough in temp and dropping the bag in. Because you have to sit there and stir the pot continuously giving your arm a bloody good work out 


Tom
*Trying to make BIAB more complicated *


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## pdilley

Oh let me add I also don't stir the grain.

I am a Tea-Tottler BIAB brewer.

My high tech "jute twine" setup lets me suspend the BIAB bag like a giant teabag and I gently dunk up and down with just my pinched fingers like a tea bag with all the weight and issues of stirring not there.  

Works bloody great, even with wheats and flours added to the bag. So in my case it really is almost get to temp and dropping the bag in. All I do is the dunking teabag and flame adjustment. Usually I'll camp out in the kitchen or nearby sometimes with a book to read or just browsing AHB on the iPhone 

Does require some more study though on a few simple farmers knots 

EDIT: Jute Twine Tea-Tottler method of BIAB also means I have a square 1.5m by 1.5m piece of voile cloth. No sewing or handles or anything. Just me' cloth and me' twine.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## LLoyd

PistolPatch said:


> This is a draft of a spreadsheet I want to include in the BIAB FAQs. (This is a sub-topic of this thread I can be active on so you can expect a reply  )
> 
> View attachment 30477
> 
> 
> Whoops! Meant to write how to use the spreadsheet but forgot! Just change the red figures. Does that make sense?


 5 litre trub buffer works for me Patch, but is this actually a percentage figure?

Lloydie


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## troopa

Hey PP thanks for the file mate.. Ill be using that on my next brew just to see how accurate it is to dial into my 60l aluminum pot over the next few brews

Certainly a cleaner setup then the crude one i created

Tom


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## Thirsty Boy

PistolPatch said:


> This is a draft of a spreadsheet I want to include in the BIAB FAQs. (This is a sub-topic of this thread I can be active on so you can expect a reply  )
> 
> View attachment 30477
> 
> 
> Whoops! Meant to write how to use the spreadsheet but forgot! Just change the red figures. Does that make sense?



PP - a handy little tool if ever I saw one. Well done.

An improvement, or addition really, that I might suggest is a "Total Mash Volume" figure. To help people work out if they will be able to fit their desired brew into a particular sized kettle.

Its easy to work out - Grain takes up about 0.66L for every kg. So weight of grain x 0.66 + total water needed = total mash volume.

Are we free to spread this tool around the place?? (with credits of course) or is it something you would prefer to keep on AHB or BIABrewer.info?


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## WarmBeer

I'd just IM'ed a suggestion to PistolPatch, as the "Fill Your Kettle to..." (Cell B18) can be calculated based on the known diameter of the pot (assuming straight sided).

Just replace the calculation in B18 with the following:
=B16*1000/(PI()*((B10/2)^2))​
Note, this doesn't take into account the expansion of water as it is heated, so the height is correct at ambient temperatures.


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## Scruffy

Brewer Pete said:


> You can play with the times as well. If you want to go very dry and light bodied in your final beer than you can decrease the amount of time you rest at 60C and increase the time you rest at 70C.



Hi Pete,

In my understanding, in single or multi-step mashes, the bulk of the starch to sugars process is accomplished by the alpha and beta amalyse enzymes, both of which are active to some degree in the normal 64-70C conversion step range. Mashing at lower temperatures (approx 63-66C) will activate more beta amalyse, resulting in more maltose conversion. Maltose is the primary sugar preferred by yeast, so a lower mash temperature results in a larger percentage of sugars being fermented, resulting in a clean beer finish with higher attenuation, slightly higher alcohol content and _less_ body overall. It takes a bit longer generally, for beta amalyse to do its work, so a longer conversion step at low temperature is needed.

Mashing at the higher end of the range (approx 66-70C) activates alpha amalyse, resulting in not only maltose but other unfermentable sugars (by beer yeast anyway!). Less of the sugars will ferment, leaving lower yeast attenuation and additional body in the finished beer. Alpha amalyse completes its work more quickly than beta, so a slightly shorter step time could be considered.

The other technique mentioned is the dough-in rest or protein rest. At 37-44, maybe up to55C, the dough in allows the grains to soak and saturate as well as allowing the key various lower temperature enzymes to begin chopping up longer chains of molecules. It lowers the PH slightly, and might improve the mash efficiency by a few percent. I've played with 10-15 minute-ish dough in at a 55C trying for an improved clarity, and several cavalier BIAB brews in am not really noticing any difference (that's my crappy science though!). I tried a long rest on a house bitter with wheat, and got no frothy head!!

An end of mash 'mash out' of 75+C can be beneficial too, but for most Keep It Simple BIAB brews, a single mash temp of 67C is ideal - if you are using enzyme-rich malt (and most of the stuff I buy off Ross has been optimised for brewers by scientists rather than dragged out of the ground by medieval farmers) you may end up producing wort that is more fermentable than you really want, resulting in a beer that has a 'thin' character - I remember reading that Bud Light is mashed at about 63C (for about 3 hours...!)

Like I said, I think for most BIAB beginners, 67C is a good starting place... having said that - the difference in taste from mega-swill will probably blow them away!

Disclaimer: I understand I'm only typing on the internet, and expect to be pulled up on everything I've offered here - but it's what I've experienced, so NAAAAAAAAAAH!


----------



## Bribie G

Scruffy, wandering a bit off topic here but I often hear that BIAB produces more dextrinous wort than 3V brewing (Ross has mentioned this as well) due to the thinner mash so the enzymes tend to 'miss' each other more like ships passing in the night. So to take Palmer's analogy you get the tree branches and stems cut up ok but then it's not so efficient at trimming up the little twigs. However PP or TB may be able to clarify this? I know there was some discussion about this on the "BIAB comp successes" thread as MaxT was saying this is the reason (in his opinion of course) you can't make a good light beer with BIAB.

Edit: I've downloaded the spreadsheet and will have a good explore when I get back from ALDI this morning, looks the goods :icon_cheers:


----------



## Scruffy

Hi Bribo (I think that's the vernacular?!),

'zactly - ...as I said, i've not really noticed much difference mashing within the 'traditional' low/high ranges (there are also MANY and various reasons, rather than just temperature). When I started BIAB (I was more traditional in the UK), I 'mashed' Thomas Fawcett Maris Otter (only) at 66C for 90 mins aiming for an OG of 1050. I boiled with Goldings only (cause I knew that from GB). Fermented with equiv of a Wyeast 1318, it finished slightly higher than i was used to (1015 - I didn't fiddle any further, in the cause of creating a control, of sorts). So I guessed mash the next lower, 63 for 60, 67 for 30. Not really much difference, for me (1011 - still finished higher than the UK mash - but I figured I'd run with this as it's different water, technique, equipment, ambient temp, the distance the grain has travelled, mash thickness, yeast, hops, sun spots etc) - I don't brew commercially, so a couple of points FG isn't going to bankrupt me... I also found since, anything like a crystal or caramel/chocolate malt is/are much more pronounced - again, traditionally, steeping favours a thinner ratios or concentrations of starch... 

My conclusion is, I reckon I need more BIAB Kill Stickers on my Pot.


Hey, BIAB Kill Marking Stickers!! '...Davo, what's that burning plastic smell?'


----------



## PistolPatch

BribieG said:


> Scruffy, wandering a bit off topic here but I often hear that BIAB produces more dextrinous wort than 3V brewing (Ross has mentioned this as well) due to the thinner mash so the enzymes tend to 'miss' each other more like ships passing in the night. So to take Palmer's analogy you get the tree branches and stems cut up ok but then it's not so efficient at trimming up the little twigs. However PP or TB may be able to clarify this? I know there was some discussion about this on the "BIAB comp successes" thread as MaxT was saying this is the reason (in his opinion of course) you can't make a good light beer with BIAB.
> 
> Edit: I've downloaded the spreadsheet and will have a good explore when I get back from ALDI this morning, looks the goods :icon_cheers:



Thanks very much for the questions and suggestions for the spreadsheet. I'll reply properly to those after work.

Just quickly though on the dextrinous question above, have a look at this page.

Of particular interest is the section on mash thickness which says...

_The results for mash thickness were somewhat surprising. Contrary to common believe no attenuation difference was seen between a thick mash (2.57 l/kg or 1.21 qt/lb) and a thin mash (5 l/kg or 2.37 qt/lb). Home brewing literature suggests that thin mashes lead to more fermentable worts, but technical brewing literature suggests that the mash concentration doesn't have much effect in well modified malts [Narziss, 2005]. Briggs cites data that doesn't show a change in fermentability when the mash thickness is changed [Briggs, 2004]. This was confirmed by these eperiments where all the data points were on the same curve that had already been established in the temperature experiment._

Back to you later on the spreadsheet and thanks,
Pat


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

PistolPatch said:


> Thanks very much for the questions and suggestions for the spreadsheet. I'll reply properly to those after work.
> 
> Just quickly though on the dextrinous question above, have a look at this page.
> 
> Of particular interest is the section on mash thickness which says...
> 
> _The results for mash thickness were somewhat surprising. Contrary to common believe no attenuation difference was seen between a thick mash (2.57 l/kg or 1.21 qt/lb) and a thin mash (5 l/kg or 2.37 qt/lb). Home brewing literature suggests that thin mashes lead to more fermentable worts, but technical brewing literature suggests that the mash concentration doesn't have much effect in well modified malts [Narziss, 2005]. Briggs cites data that doesn't show a change in fermentability when the mash thickness is changed [Briggs, 2004]. This was confirmed by these eperiments where all the data points were on the same curve that had already been established in the temperature experiment._
> 
> Back to you later on the spreadsheet and thanks,
> Pat


Pat I would say after playing around with thick and thin mash's your above quote has much merit.You cant always take what you read in home brew books as being gospel. I rather test theories myself and refer to proven scientific data.
GB


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## buttersd70

I tend to think that this is one of those funny issues where experts (not hb writers, but real experts, like narziss, muller, briggs, kunz, etc ) tend to contradict each other...and sometimes themselves. :lol: I'm thinking of Briggs, here, in particular. In BS&P, he states mash thickness has _significant _effects on fermentability...wheras the reference to Briggs' data in the braukaiser article states that it _doesn't_. Makes it very bloody hard for the layman, as each of the sources is highly respected.

Having had a bit of a play with mash thickness myself, I agree with Nev, that - at least on a HB scale - it doesn't make much difference. Not really surprising, given the amount of other variables that are not possible to micro manage anyway. It's one factor I stopped worrying about a long time ago.


----------



## hairyson

PistolPatch said:


> This is a draft of a spreadsheet I want to include in the BIAB FAQs. (This is a sub-topic of this thread I can be active on so you can expect a reply  )
> 
> View attachment 30477
> 
> 
> Whoops! Meant to write how to use the spreadsheet but forgot! Just change the red figures. Does that make sense?


PP,
there are some funny formulae in the 'Average' cells of the s/sheet I downloaded. Easy to fix, but just thought I'd point it out. Also it might be easier to use the XL formula =AVERAGE() than the sum/countif combo (might mean fewer mistakes  )
ben


----------



## PistolPatch

*Updated BIAB Volumes Spreadsheet*

View attachment BIAB_Equipment_Set_Up_Volumes.xls


*Changes*

Fill Your Kettle to... : This very handy figure provided by WarmBeer has been added and should be quite accurate for straight-sided kettles. Wort expansion is exponential and so, even at mash temperatures, the figure should be very close. See my post here. Thanks a heap Brett!

Kettle Calibration Figure: This is now derived from WarmBeer's formula and so the same comments apply as above.

Approximate Mash Volume: Another excellent addition suggested/provided by ThirstyBoy. The figure provided by TB is a very good guide and any variance will be mainly due to your crush. Donya Dan!

*Explanations*

Here are some explanations to some posts made above....

Distribution of the Spreadsheet: Go for it Thirsty! If you want to give it a credit, then maybe credit it to BIABrewer.info as the only thing stopping the new stuff going up on BIABrewer.info is relocation of the host plus loading it all into new software. Doing this should be simple and not take much time shouldn't it? :blink: I think WarmBeer is going to have a crack at making further improvements. Once they are all done, maybe we can then at least get it onto the articles section of AHB instead of holding our breath! Maybe I should start posting the other stuff up there in sections as well?

Kettle Trub/Buffer: Sorry for the slow answer Lloydie. This is the most inaccurate figure of the spreadsheet and I will write another post immediately below specific to this. The *principle* though of this kettle trub/buffer figure is to ensure that new brewers have enough wort in their kettle at the end of the boil without having to worry about advanced trub management. In other words, they won't have to suck the guts out of their kettle.

The "Actual," Columns: This side of the spreadsheet also needs a fair bit of thinking through so I'll also comment further in my immediate post below, Benny. The principle of this though is to allow new brewers to take some real measurements on 5 brews and then adjust the base formulas to suit. Until we improve on this, the average will display #DIV/0! until a real figure is entered in one of the "Actual," columns.

Thanks again to the BIABers who kindly supplied the figures that are the base of the spreadsheet and to the guys above who have asked good questions or provided some excellent improvements.

:super: 
Pat


----------



## randyrob

I'll be the first to pipe in - That is actually a pretty decent spreadsheet.

Clean, simple to understand and well explained

Nice work to the authors

77 Pages into the BIAB thread and something decent appears h34r:


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## PistolPatch

*Improvements Needed to BIAB Volumes Spreadsheet (Help/Feedback Wanted!)*

If you have any ideas/feedback on this spreadsheet then please let me know. For example, I have no idea whether it is actually easy for a new brewer to understand and use - I am just hoping and thinking it is! There are probably several ways the layout can be improved as well???

Here are a few problems I have with it and some of these are hopefully just me being pedantic....

*Kettle Trub & Buffer Space*

This is the only formula I am not happy with. I think the rest are the best we have available to date. On this particular formula, I am not too worried that on a 23lt brew length is provides for 5lts of trub. This allows new brewers to not have to "fight" to achieve their volume. 5lts in a large diameter pot is actually not an unreasonable figure and the spreadsheet is, after all, aimed at providing an easy starting point.

What I am worried about is if a new brewer uses this figure on a double batch. It will then be way out. For example, on the few figures we have collected on double-batches (all mine actually!) the trub only goes up by about 20%.

So, any crafty ideas on this?

*The Actual Columns*

Firstly, it would be nice to have the Average column display "0" instead of "#DIV/0!" when no figures are entered.

Secondly, I think some of the average figures could be misleading if the new brewer does wildly varying brews. Then again, I may be over-thinking this one. Perhaps it is only the kettle trub/buffer figure that could throw them out?

Thirdly, assuming the average figures yielded from the actuals above is reliable, there is no easy way of personalsing the existing formulas for those not savvy with Excel.

Once again, any ideas?

*Locking of Cells*

Maybe a lot of the cells should be locked so as they cannot easily be over-written or changed?

Any ideas on which ones?

:icon_cheers: in advance to all those who take the time and have a bash at helping out here.

Spot ya ron,
Pat

P.S. RandyRob is only taking the piss. He's the one who is going to sort the software side for us :beerbang: Donya Robby!


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## hairyson

Good work Pat, I think it's a nice simple s/sheet, easy to read and understand. I don't know if I would have understood everything in it when I first started brewing though, e.g. I had no idea what things like 'trub' were back then.

Maybe it needs to be made pretty obvious that it helps you to set up by working _backwards_. 

the scientist in me says that instead of units for _evaporation per hour_ being litres, the units for _evaporation rate_ are litres per hour. similar story for grain absorption (i.e. litres per gram).



PistolPatch said:


> Firstly, it would be nice to have the Average column display "0" instead of "#DIV/0!" when no figures are entered.


>>You could just fill the cells with zeros as a default, or go all out and use a formula like this:
=IF(COUNTBLANK(E4:I4)=5,0,AVERAGE(E4:I4))
where countblank counts the number of blanks, so if there are 5 blanks, there aren't any figues yet!



> Secondly, I think some of the average figures could be misleading if the new brewer does wildly varying brews. Then again, I may be over-thinking this one. Perhaps it is only the kettle trub/buffer figure that could throw them out?


>>Just point out in the s/sheet that this is a very rubbery figure, and depends a lot on their setup.



> Thirdly, assuming the average figures yielded from the actuals above is reliable, there is no easy way of personalsing the existing formulas for those not savvy with Excel.


>>Put another column in next to the calculated numbers, labelled something like 'My numbers'? 

ben


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## LLoyd

PistolPatch said:


> *Kettle Trub & Buffer Space*
> 
> This is the only formula I am not happy with. I think the rest are the best we have available to date. On this particular formula, I am not too worried that on a 23lt brew length is provides for 5lts of trub. This allows new brewers to not have to "fight" to achieve their volume. 5lts in a large diameter pot is actually not an unreasonable figure and the spreadsheet is, after all, aimed at providing an easy starting point.
> 
> What I am worried about is if a new brewer uses this figure on a double batch. It will then be way out. For example, on the few figures we have collected on double-batches (all mine actually!) the trub only goes up by about 20%.
> 
> So, any crafty ideas on this?



Maybe start with 5litres and say 4-4.5 kilos as a base, then start your small increases from that point.

Great work mate! I've got pages of notes and tables spread from arsehole to breakfast that I have to search thru every time I change a batch volume. Buggered if I could explain it all to a noob (or the CEO). This makes it as simple as it gets without glossing over WHAT you're actually working out.

Cheers 

Lloydie


----------



## Bribie G

Great work. I've entered in all the figures for a typical Urn brew with a 4kg grain bill and it all works out sweetly except for the 4.8 L of kettle trub and buffer, the brew I did last night ended up with about spot on 3L and as you can see, with a bit of faffing around I could probably have sneaked a bit more wort off as I didn't whirlpool etc. I don't know if this would be the same in a Robinox pot or whatever? Diameter of the Birko is 35 cm so would a figure of 4.8 apply more to a wider squatter pot maybe?


----------



## Scruffy

60l Chef Inox. just under 4l left after whirling...

If that helps?


----------



## 3GumsBrewing

Dudes, top top work. :super: 

Will test out with 40L Crown urn this weekend. 
I will adjust the kettle trub and buffer down to 3ish though. Above 4 seems like lots!

DK


----------



## benrs44

I guess this is making things totally over complicated... but it mght be useful to automatically adjust any readings back to a benchmark temperature, at any stage during the mash/boil, in order to account for thermal expansion. I searched the internet and found an equation to make a simple calculator on excel with the only problem being that the coefficient (that this particular site provided) is for water. It is possible to calculate an alternative coefficient based on gravity readings but I didnt really have anytime to put that together.

I just quickly (and very crudely) incorporated the equation into the actual figures side of things so that comparisons can easily be made on the run. I also changed the input method to cm so that a quick measurement with the ruler could be plugged straight into the spreadsheet and an adjusted figure would appear straight away. I'm not sure if this is suitable for others and this particular spreadsheet (maybe more of a checklist feature for some) but I will certainly find it useful in my coming brews.

A big thanks to those that put this together. I used it to calculate my water volume for my second BIAB on monday and despite overshooting (aiming for 22.5L I got 25.5L into the fermenter - I also lost a good 2L to the floor when i left the tap oped on the fermenter when i started transfering the cooled wort :huh: ) it assisted in my understanding which will hopefully help me to get it right third time around!

On another note: I put together a copper immersion chiller last week and when I first put the chiller into the boiling wort to sterilize. it slowed the boil (this resulted in slightly less boil off than i had anticipated). Next time, I am going to heat up my coil with water out of the tap before putting in the boil in an effort to prevent the heat loss during the boil. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Cheers
Ben

View attachment BIAB_Equipment_Set_Up_Volumes.xls.xls


Edit: changed the name of the spreadsheet back to original and fixed some changes i made.


----------



## nikgr

Very good work this solves a lot of problems with wanabe Biabers .Thanks for your effort. :super: :super:


----------



## pdilley

Ok New technology for BIAB the high tech way.


I changed the thermometer string to the same jute twine. This gave me an idea. Now I can hang the thermometer out of the way of touching the sides or the bottom of the brew pot.

I also can now wrap the jute loosely around the BIAB square non-sewn bag and now it instantly stays out of my way and wrapped up as I dunk like a mad Tea brewer for the first 20 minutes where the action happens in mashing.




Second High Technology Option.

After Michael got me going on his Sparge idea I decided to put the Big Funnel into a new repurposed life after draining wort to pitch back in for the boil.

Now I put the kettle on and boil up 2 Litres of water and then boil up 1 liter of water.

The BIAB bag in the Big Funnel blocks the water from reaching the drain hole.
Now the Grain acts like a water filter and I fill up the Big Funnel full of hot water and it drains sparged wort directly into my 5 Litre Flask.

Awesome!



I use this sparge NOT to go into the boil but to save in ALDI 2 Litre apple juice containers for wort for doing my yeast work.

Such as:
Re-culturing yeast directly from the bottle (after drinking the beer). No Hops in it means no fear of sunlight. No fear of sunlight means I can take advantage of the sun and get nice warm yeast crazy re-culturing action going on while my Brew Fridge is empty and turned off saving me some more electricity.



And using the wort to mix with Agar to make Yeast Slant Tubes to make a yeast library....

Lovin' it!


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## PistolPatch

Good to see your brain is still doing a heap of RPM Pete :icon_cheers: 

*Updated BIAB Volumes Spreadsheet*

View attachment BIAB_Equipment_Set_Up_Volumes_130909A.xls


*Changes*

Average: Have changed the average column so as it stays blank if no figures have been entered. Once the brewer begins to add figures, the Average column displays the average of the figures that have been entered. (Thanks for the formula help benny and benrs44!)

Evaporation Per Hour: Changed units to lts/hr as suggested by Benny. Donya!

*Special Note*

I have been uploading the spreadsheet using the same filename each time which I think is a mistake as I think it affects all prior posts. I will keep changing the name from now on and hope this hasn't caused any problems to date.

*Explanantions*

Thanks again for the feedback randyrob, Lloydie, Bribie, Scruffy, DK, benrs44 and nikgr. Much appreciated. Here are some explanations...

I have used the beginning of your formulas Ben/s but changed the latter so as it gives the average of figures provided not the average of all 5 columns. Otherewise if someone just puts in a few figures, it would divide them by 5. Make sense?

I haven't changed the grain absorption to litres per gram as it is actually just a litre figure.

Still haven't come up with an idea for a reliable trub formula but getting the feedback on what people are scoring is very helpful. If we get enough figures, I suppose we could always add a drop-down box for people to select their kettle type and then have a formula based on this.

Finally I haven't included benrs44's temperature co-efficient. I want to chat more to him about this but will do it off-forum.

Thanks a heap guys!
Pat


----------



## PistolPatch

benrs44 said:


> I put together a copper immersion chiller last week and when I first put the chiller into the boiling wort to sterilize. it slowed the boil (this resulted in slightly less boil off than i had anticipated). Next time, I am going to heat up my coil with water out of the tap before putting in the boil in an effort to prevent the heat loss during the boil. Does anyone have any suggestions?



Don't get too worried about that Ben. Here is what I do...

Put your chiller in at 15 or 20 minutes before the end of the boil - a bit before you have to add your flavour hops if you have them. Stop your clock until it returns to the boil and then re-start it. Add your flavour and aroma hops at the adjusted time.

Your chiller is a pretty dirty bit of gear and is hard to clean properly so it is a good idea to have it being boiled for 15 minutes or more.

There is no problem in stopping your clock. If you have a crappy burner then pre-heating your chiller as you have suggested certainly will help. If your burner will get you back to the boil within 5 or 10 minutes, then I wouldn't be bothered about mucking around with pre-heating it.

Spot,
Pat


----------



## PistolPatch

PistolPatch said:


> I have used the beginning of your formulas Ben/s but changed the latter so as it gives the average of figures provided not the average of all 5 columns. Otherewise if someone just puts in a few figures, it would divide them by 5. Make sense?



Sorry Ben/s, I just realised that the average figure formula you used works fine. Too many bloody spreadsheets floating around on my computer!


----------



## PistolPatch

Okay, experienced BIABrewers and new BIABrewers, how does this spreadsheet look?

View attachment BIAB_Equipment_Set_Up_Volumes_140909.xls


*New BIABrewers*

I'm not sure if new BIABrewers actually read this thread now but if you do, can you let me know either here or via PM as to whether this spreadsheet is easy for you to use or not? It is your feedback that is most needed.

*Experienced BIABrewers*

Hopefully the above "re-vamped" format is helpful to you guys as well. It incorporates benrs44's suggestion of adjusting for temperature - many thanks again benrs! (I have only created formulas on useful temperatures as thermal expansion is not a linear thing and is also pretty impossible to get right on varying SG worts!)

It's pretty hard to get things like this perfect for everyone though I have done my best. For example, I have changed the basic kettle trub/buffer figure from around 5 to 4 lts as I think it is a more reasonable figure even though I would now like to see new brewers having more wort than less.

*Educating the New BIABrewers*

We all end up with particular aspects of brewing that fascinate us. Some brewers quickly become skilled at recipe formulation, others at automation, some at chemistry whilst others develop some trivial obsession .

My two passions are efficient gear/equipment and the education of new AG brewers. Too often we experienced brewers forget how bewildering the world of AG was to us. Hopefully with BIAB this is less so. 

Anyway, please let me know, here or via PM, if the above spreadsheet is helpful or confusing. Do you think that you, as an experienced BIABer, could easily help a new guy into understanding it?

Spot,
Pat


----------



## RdeVjun

PistolPatch said:


> Anyway, please let me know, here or via PM, if the above spreadsheet is helpful or confusing. Do you think that you, as an experienced BIABer, could easily help a new guy into understanding it?


Hi Pat, looks the goods to me, although I haven't actually used it and won't get a chance until later on this coming weekend. It tallies fairly well though with my last few batches with a bit of tweaking of the trubs.
It might seem pretty simple and obvious, but for mine the "End of Boil Volume (Batch Size)" value is perhaps the most useful part for planning, being able to plug a fairly reliable figure for that into a simple recipator is worth its weight in gold for getting started. Also the Total/ Approximate Mash Volume is very useful to see if your pot/kettle can handle it all, initially one batch of mine was too much, but I only found out too late.
Often I do the sums off the top of my head as I can predict the performance of my kit fairly well, but I really had no idea where to aim with volumes when I was starting to BIAB, so this is an excellent starting point for beginners as it does that pretty well. So, yeah, I'd say most beginners should be able to work through it, even without any assistance. Great work!!! :icon_cheers:
Edit: Spelling...


----------



## PistolPatch

RV, many thanks for the feedback above. My main computer has carked it so I am replying from a little laptop whilst I re-load Windows :angry: I thought doing the final touches on the spreadsheet the other night would take about 3 beers but it ended up taking about 30 - lol. I haven't checked it since but hopefully it is OK.

Thirsty's suggestion of the Total Mash Volume was a great idea along with the ben's thermal expansion corrections. These are things that you would think existing brewing software would include???

The more I chat with experienced brewers, the more confident I get of my doubts on the existing brewing software. (I found a major one about 6 months ago but you never hear about it - relates to mash tun deadspace so is not applicable to BIAB).

People talk about re-inventing the wheel. I reckon this is one wheel that could certainly do with some work.

So we have our volume spreadsheet, all we need now is an efficiency and hop utilisation one!

Thanks again RV,
Pat


----------



## chappo1970

Q? And not trying to be a smarty pants for once.

Why doesn't/haven't anyone tried recirculating the wort HERMS style? I asked the question in Nick Jr thread but no one answered I guess because no one has the experienced or has tried? I'm not after a stir but genuinely interested as I'm working on a little project for BribieG and have had to get up to speed with the BIAB processes so have become genuinely interested in the whole BIAB process.

PM me the answer if you don't want to comment on the open forum.

Cheers

Chappo


----------



## katzke

Chappo said:


> Q? And not trying to be a smarty pants for once.
> 
> Why doesn't/haven't anyone tried recirculating the wort HERMS style? I asked the question in Nick Jr thread but no one answered I guess because no one has the experienced or has tried? I'm not after a stir but genuinely interested as I'm working on a little project for BribieG and have had to get up to speed with the BIAB processes so have become genuinely interested in the whole BIAB process.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Chappo



Recirculating HERMS style implies a pump. BIAB is supposed to be simple and require nothing but a big kettle and a bag.

Some people are doing extra steps like a dunk sparge but I don’t think it is worth the effort. The exception may be if the big kettle is not big enough for the grain and all the water and by dunking for some extra wort you can then fill the kettle and boil.

Did I get your question answered?

Welcome to the dark side.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Chappo said:


> Q? And not trying to be a smarty pants for once.
> 
> Why doesn't/haven't anyone tried recirculating the wort HERMS style? I asked the question in Nick Jr thread but no one answered I guess because no one has the experienced or has tried? I'm not after a stir but genuinely interested as I'm working on a little project for BribieG and have had to get up to speed with the BIAB processes so have become genuinely interested in the whole BIAB process.
> 
> PM me the answer if you don't want to comment on the open forum.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Chappo



No reason you couldn't - with an Urn style BIAB set-up (actually probably with most of them) you could pump out from under a false bottom of some description and feed it back into the top. It would be very similar to the re-circulation system in "brutus" style mash tuns. Direct heat and re-circulation to avoid having to stir.

BUT - why? is the main question. Re-circulation systems are mainly about maintaining temperatures, step mashing and final wort clarity. Both of which you can do already in a BIAB system, because by definition, you have a heatable mashtun..... it being your kettle and all. You might as well stir during your steps... because the BIAB lautering process wrecks any grain bed set-up and therefore any established wort clarity you might have from the re-circulation.

So you could re-circ a BIAB with a little extra gear and effort - but it does kind of defeat some of the key reasons to BIAB in the first place (cheap, simple, few bits of gear) and it doesn't really give you much that you don't have already. Except to save a little stirring. I can see someone doing it though, probably to get serious control and stability in their temperatures.

TB


----------



## chappo1970

Thirsty Boy said:


> No reason you couldn't - with an Urn style BIAB set-up (actually probably with most of them) you could pump out from under a false bottom of some description and feed it back into the top. It would be very similar to the re-circulation system in "brutus" style mash tuns. Direct heat and re-circulation to avoid having to stir.
> 
> BUT - why? is the main question. Re-circulation systems are mainly about maintaining temperatures, step mashing and final wort clarity. Both of which you can do already in a BIAB system, because by definition, you have a heatable mashtun..... it being your kettle and all. You might as well stir during your steps... because the BIAB lautering process wrecks any grain bed set-up and therefore any established wort clarity you might have from the re-circulation.
> 
> So you could re-circ a BIAB with a little extra gear and effort - but it does kind of defeat some of the key reasons to BIAB in the first place (cheap, simple, few bits of gear) and it doesn't really give you much that you don't have already. Except to save a little stirring. I can see someone doing it though, probably to get serious control and stability in their temperatures.
> 
> TB



Thank you TB as always a well explained response.

The reason I am asking (flame suit on h34r: ) is a two fold affair. Firstly I have been seriously thinking about buying a 20-30lt urn and BIABing for experimental beers that will be small in volume no more that say 5lt to 10lts. I want to be able stuff around with grists, ratios, hopping, yeasts, mashing schedules etc tinkering with a beer or style till I am happy with it and then go to Sherman and brew 40-60lts. Wasting 1-3 kgs of grain and 10-30grs of hops and a slant of yeast I can live with $ wise. Plus the clean up time, 1 vessel vs 4, requires much less time meaning I can easily stuff around in the evenings experimenting like a demented Mad Scientist.

Secondly there was that thread this week that Nick Jr posted about making crystal from his otherwise spent grains. Having a fair amount residual sugars still left in the grist had me thinking that maybe a recirculating mash in a BIAB vessel may help lessen that problem but also give some more repeatability and consistancy. Having so much residual sugars left behind would throw my larger scale version out once I'm back brewing on Sherman. As I already have a march pump, HE and other gear it seemed sensible to me at least I use what I already have and see if I can more closely replicate what I will be doing but on a larger scale obviously. No use working up a hopping schedule only to find that the utilisation is out of whack because I am extracting more sugars from the bigger system.

Anyways appreciate your thoughts

Chappo

(why do I feel a huge ribbing coming on? :blink: )


----------



## Bribie G

TB, I believe, does expermental BIAB brews prior to doing them on a 3V system. Also if you are using a smaller setup then sparge in a bucket will be easy to do and results in far less sugars remaining in the spent grain. Of course you will be picking Rde's brains on your brewday, that's what he does. 

Hmm brains, welcome to the zombie darkside B)


----------



## crundle

Can see where you are coming from Chappo, for your situation at least.

The low tech equivalent for BIAB is dunking the bag like a tea bag. Perhaps the lid of the urn could have a hole in it and a paint stirrer could be used in it to plunge up and down to help agitate the wort? 

Something moving by itself on the brew rig would surely appeal to your love of automation  

Crundle


----------



## chappo1970

Sherman currently pulls between 85% and 90% efficency (well over the last 3 brews anyway), now I know the arguements about this subject and have a handle on most of the the ins and outs of calculating efficency and don't want to start yet another wasted debate ok, what I am more concerned with is having the "mini" system more or less replicating the sugar extraction of the bigger system. I can appreciate that they are two different styled brewing processes but if I can replicate results when scaling up then it would be all worth while. Conversly if I can't then I am just wasting my time, effort and money. I'm not after a definitive "yes" just a "it's possible". Otherwise I'll buy another 2 x 20lt pots (MLT and Boiler) and scale the system replication that way but still have the issue of spending 1hr after the brew cleaning 4 vessels.




BribieG said:


> TB, I believe, does expermental BIAB brews prior to doing them on a 3V system. Also if you are using a smaller setup then sparge in a bucket will be easy to do and results in far less sugars remaining in the spent grain. Of course you will be picking Rde's brains on your brewday, that's what he does.
> 
> Hmm brains, welcome to the zombie darkside B)



Yes Bribie, I fully planned to be picking Rde's for his thoughts and comments. You know what they say there is never a free lunch  .



crundle said:


> Can see where you are coming from Chappo, for your situation at least.
> 
> The low tech equivalent for BIAB is dunking the bag like a tea bag. Perhaps the lid of the urn could have a hole in it and a paint stirrer could be used in it to plunge up and down to help agitate the wort?
> 
> Something moving by itself on the brew rig would surely appeal to your love of automation
> 
> Crundle



Hmmm interesting? What about one of these?


----------



## hairyson

PistolPatch said:


> Anyway, please let me know, here or via PM, if the above spreadsheet is helpful or confusing. Do you think that you, as an experienced BIABer, could easily help a new guy into understanding it?
> 
> Spot,
> Pat


Pat,
We used the setup sheet last night for a brew in our straight-sided 98 litre Robinox pot (500mm diameter). The sheet's great, though we adjusted down the volume lost to kettle+trub (post-boil) to 2 litres to better reflect our setup, and volume lost to grist about 0.5 litres/kg because we squeeze a bit. 

Additionally the pickup and hop screen in the bottom of our kettle, plus temperature probe, mean that we don't have a fully linear kettle volume-to-depth curve, but it's close enough to not worry about.

Nice work!
ben


----------



## crundle

You know when you turn on the Sherminator it will become self aware and seek to destroy you!  

Judgment Day indeed! :lol: 

Crundle


----------



## katzke

Chappo said:


> Secondly there was that thread this week that Nick Jr posted about making crystal from his otherwise spent grains. Having a fair amount residual sugars still left in the grist had me thinking that maybe a recirculating mash in a BIAB vessel may help lessen that problem but also give some more repeatability and consistancy. Having so much residual sugars left behind would throw my larger scale version out once I'm back brewing on Sherman. As I already have a march pump, HE and other gear it seemed sensible to me at least I use what I already have and see if I can more closely replicate what I will be doing but on a larger scale obviously. No use working up a hopping schedule only to find that the utilisation is out of whack because I am extracting more sugars from the bigger system.
> 
> Anyways appreciate your thoughts
> 
> Chappo
> 
> (why do I feel a huge ribbing coming on? :blink: )



I think you may be so set on the comparison of brewing methods that you are forgetting some basic brewing.

All recipes are developed for a particular system. If I tell you to brew with so much grain and hops and never tell you what gravity I am at or how much final beer I get you will have a time getting the same results.

If you understand your test system and your full size system it will make little difference in how you work up or down the recipe. Each will be unique.

I am interested in only a few things. Gravity into the fermentor is the big one. Boil volume is important for IBU calculations. Final gravity is important for replicating a brew. There are others as well.

If I know the percentages of the grain bill, the hop schedule, the IBUs, color, original gravity into the fermentor, and final gravity I have a real good chance of replicating one of your brews. You notice how much beer you made is not listed. Even mash temperature is not listed. I think water chemistry is a bit more important because I may bump up the sulfates for bitterness while you may bump up the chloride for malt flavor.

A good test would be to work backward and brew one of your large proven recipes with a mini BIAB just to teach yourself what you need to do to get the same recipe with BIAB. It is an easy way to brew but it can take a bit to get predictable volumes and the hopping is what would be most effected. Once you get it figured out scaling up or down should be a piece of cake.


----------



## chappo1970

katzke said:


> I think you may be so set on the comparison of brewing methods that you are forgetting some basic brewing.
> 
> All recipes are developed for a particular system. If I tell you to brew with so much grain and hops and never tell you what gravity I am at or how much final beer I get you will have a time getting the same results.
> 
> If you understand your test system and your full size system it will make little difference in how you work up or down the recipe. Each will be unique.
> 
> I am interested in only a few things. Gravity into the fermentor is the big one. Boil volume is important for IBU calculations. Final gravity is important for replicating a brew. There are others as well.
> 
> If I know the percentages of the grain bill, the hop schedule, the IBUs, color, original gravity into the fermentor, and final gravity I have a real good chance of replicating one of your brews. You notice how much beer you made is not listed. Even mash temperature is not listed. I think water chemistry is a bit more important because I may bump up the sulfates for bitterness while you may bump up the chloride for malt flavor.
> 
> A good test would be to work backward and brew one of your large proven recipes with a mini BIAB just to teach yourself what you need to do to get the same recipe with BIAB. It is an easy way to brew but it can take a bit to get predictable volumes and the hopping is what would be most effected. Once you get it figured out scaling up or down should be a piece of cake.



Agreed K no arguements here, I was merely trying to avoid all the faffing around with calculations, percentages and scaling etc between systems. Yes I think the BIAB method works well in that regard and a pinch more here or there ain't going to make a cracker of difference to the results really. I'm a homebrewer not a brewery. It's just my anal-retentive nature that clouds the noodle thinking dept at times.

Sure there will always be stuff ups, lazy yeasts, varying hop AA's and I accept that as a part of home brewing.

The objective of the mini-micro brewery is for experimentation only. For example if I want to backward engineer a house beer (as you suggested), say my Aussie Lager recipe, where I'm sipping a pint wondering if I upped the Rice by say 1% would that be my illusive nirvana? So rather than waiting for a brew day, full scale, I can quickly mill the grains mash the fecker, boil it and start fermenting it all that night. 10 days later I have my answer yes or no. Purely an example but that's what I want to be able to do in a predictable manor going either up in volume or down in volume.

I feel BIAB is the answer as it's cheap and easy. 

I will still try to experiment with a HERMS-esq sparging method for the grist though? Purely to see if it makes a cracker of difference to sugar extraction for the BIAB process.

Cheers

Chappo (shivers running up my spine... Why are Bribie and PP rubbing their hands like that?)

PS Thank Butters for your guidence as well mate! :icon_cheers:


----------



## reviled

Chappo said:


> Agreed K no arguements here, I was merely trying to avoid all the faffing around with calculations, percentages and scaling etc between systems. Yes I think the BIAB method works well in that regard and a pinch more here or there ain't going to make a cracker of difference to the results really. I'm a homebrewer not a brewery. It's just my anal-retentive nature that clouds the noodle thinking dept at times.
> 
> Sure there will always be stuff ups, lazy yeasts, varying hop AA's and I accept that as a part of home brewing.
> 
> The objective of the mini-micro brewery is for experimentation only. For example if I want to backward engineer a house beer (as you suggested), say my Aussie Lager recipe, where I'm sipping a pint wondering if I upped the Rice by say 1% would that be my illusive nirvana? So rather than waiting for a brew day, full scale, I can quickly mill the grains mash the fecker, boil it and start fermenting it all that night. 10 days later I have my answer yes or no. Purely an example but that's what I want to be able to do in a predictable manor going either up in volume or down in volume.
> 
> I feel BIAB is the answer as it's cheap and easy.
> 
> I will still try to experiment with a HERMS-esq sparging method for the grist though? Purely to see if it makes a cracker of difference to sugar extraction for the BIAB process.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Chappo (shivers running up my spine... Why are Bribie and PP rubbing their hands like that?)
> 
> PS Thank Butters for your guidence as well mate! :icon_cheers:




Good man! Hurry up and jump ship allready :beer:


----------



## PistolPatch

benny said:


> Pat,
> We used the setup sheet last night for a brew in our straight-sided 98 litre Robinox pot (500mm diameter). The sheet's great, though we adjusted down the volume lost to kettle+trub (post-boil) to 2 litres to better reflect our setup, and volume lost to grist about 0.5 litres/kg because we squeeze a bit.
> 
> Additionally the pickup and hop screen in the bottom of our kettle, plus temperature probe, mean that we don't have a fully linear kettle volume-to-depth curve, but it's close enough to not worry about.
> 
> Nice work!
> ben



Thanks a heap for posting your feedback Ben. Great to hear it was easy to adjust for your set-up.

Man, that is a big pot! If you get time, please post us some pics.

Cheers Ben,
Pat


----------



## PistolPatch

reviled said:


> Good man! Hurry up and jump ship allready :beer:



He wants to. I can see it now...

For Sale, "One Sherman - Selling at cost - $7,450"


----------



## Scruffy

Isn't there a cockney rhyming term 'Sherman Tank'?


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Chappo - I sort of answered one of your questions in my response to DrK in Nick DJR's thread.

If you look at a "normal" system getting say 75% efficiency and a BIAB system getting 75% efficiency - the difference is that in the normal system, the sugars that dont make it from the mash into the kettle, are split between the liquid held in the spent grains and any liquid in dead space, unused low gravity run-off etc etc. But in BIAB... there are no dead spaces or waste liquid, so all the sugars that dont make it into the mash tun... as trapped in the spent grain. So thats why it "seems" that BIAB is leaving behind more sugars - it isn't really, its just leaving them all in the one place.

Whats the upshot for your purposes?? Nothing really - what makes it to the kettle in either case is exactly the same. And thats what you care about.

What you need to do to make a small BIAB system into a reliable pilot for the Sherm... is to get reasonably compatible efficiency from both systems. So you can compare apples with apples. You may struggle a little ... BIAB is a hell of a lot more efficient than you might expect ... but getting 85-90% efficiency (talking measured in the kettle here) is gonna be pushing it. It not out of the question - but its certainly at the upper end of the BIAB spectrum.

If you were doing "stock" no-sparge BAIB, I would say that you were asking too much. You might get up into the 80% range for beers with a smallish grain bill, but that would be it. However - because you have all the attendant gear from your other brewing... you can do the sparge thing. I personally think a "Dunk Sparge" as pioneered by Spillsmostofit and currently used by notables such as Bribie; is the easiest and most effective method. Just reserve an amount of strike water to "dunk" your bag into as a sparge step. Bag out of main mash - drain - dunk into sparge water - stir and pull bag again. Essentially it is batch sparging in a bag. Naturally the more sparge water you use - the better efficiency you will get.

I suspect that given you would have no trouble heating up an amount of sparge water that could give you virtually equal amounts in either vessel - regular efficiencies on the order of 85% would be eminently achievable for you.

You might well notice a marginal difference in the fermentability of the beers you make with BIAB to those you make on your main system - my BIAB beers are usually a little drier. A difference of about 1 degree in sach rest temperatures at most. So if I do pilot BIAB batches, I know to compensate in my full sized brews.

You should be able to make a small scale BIAB system jump through hoops - you have all the gear associated with a full recirculating system. So all the stuff that BIAB brewers think they might try one day... you can have a no risk shot at. I see no reason why it wouldn't be a perfect way to meet your pilot brewery needs

TB


----------



## chappo1970

Thanks TB again for all your information and help. Well I am convinced to head down the BIAB route (for experimental purposes only) as it seems a logical solution to my needs. I will of course be asking more questions as I adjust my 3V thought patterns to BIAB. I am genuinely interested in this brewing technique and probably will stuff around with March pumps and recirculating sparging to the horror of some I am sure.  

For those wondering why the sudden interest in BIAB? Well as a select few know I have been making a purpose built BIAB pilot brew rig for BribieG. It's something I have been wanting to do for him for a while now. Those who know Michael will understand as he is just a great bloke, who inspite his own personal problems and challenges puts alot back into the brewing community and asks very little in return. Michael is always the first to shove one of his beers in my hand at every BABB's meeting and I always enjoy talking beery topics with him whenever I can. He maybe an evil genius and a heretic but he has a heart of gold.

Anyway here are some terrible night time pictures of the the build so far:

This is the bare frame





This is the mock up with the gantry for ligting the bag




Showing the gantry and the hoist boggie




The hoist boggie close up




Cheers

Chappo


----------



## PistolPatch

I don't think you have read the BIAB guide properly Chappo. That's Brewing In A Boat 

My goodness! That gantry looks like it would handle Carlton's grain bill for a day. Donya!


----------



## crundle

Looking good Chappo!

I would say to have a crack at a simple BIAB brewday to see what is involved, perhaps trying just squeezing the bag for one batch, then sparging for another to compare results both for efficiency and final results.

The good thing about BIAB is that it is capable of so many different iterations that a wide variety of brewing setups can be used to gain the same result with some adjustments in techniques.

Looking forward to seeing the results of your gantry setup in action and how it might make a brewday even simpler for those of us who have taken to the dark side.

And I second your comments about Bribie, he has been a fantastic help to me in getting my brewing technique tweaked to the point that I am now able to take a recipe and be able to adjust it to suit my system to get the desired results, offering helpful advice along the way.

Crundle


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## chappo1970

Thanks PP and Crundle!

I guess I should explain the rig. Oh and BTW Bribie did have input into it's design so I can't take all the credit  .

Simply the top crank has the hoisting gantry centred to the urn position so that the bag can be hoisted and once drained moved to the other side of the rig so that either a dunk spage or a bucket sparge can be done. The gantry it's self is just a piece of 30x30x1.6 RHS with a 800mm slot 10mm wide to accommodate the spigot for the boggies. The internal boggies are cavity sliding door boggies rated to 35kgs each so they should be well able to handle the intended application. The boggies car has a dual pullet set up as does the hook so in theory the weight to be lifted should be quartered. Therefore 10kg for example becomes 2.5kg. The boggie car will also have a cam lock (yacht style) so that you can one handedly lock off the hoist rope there will also be a lynch pin to stop the boggie moving L/R unexpectedly. The gantry being centred in both directions should also prevent it from toppling over by either the weight of the swinging bag and or the operator pulling too hard on the hoisting rope. Used the 1/3 rule for weight distribution.

Where you see the bracing knee to the right will be the shelf for the urn to sit on. The urn will sit about approx 600mm from the ground allowing a good drop distance for dropping into a fermenter/cube/plate chiller etc. The right side will remain open to the ground for the sparge vessel etc. The whole frame will be on castors for easy manuevouring around the brewery. From memory the entire over dimension for the rig are 500mm wide x 1000mm long x 1900mm high so it could easily be placed on someones balcony as well. Also being only 1900mm high and 500mm wide it will easily fit thru a common door opening which are 2040 high x 720mm wide. 

Obviously there will be tweaks to be made as Bribie uses it and makes comment so I hope a final design could be done later this year.

Chap Chap


----------



## Pollux

That thing is a piece of beauty.......

Really wish I could weld and had the time to knock something like that up.

If you don't mind me asking, excluding labour what would be the cost of one of these?


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## chappo1970

Materials only about $200 but that's buying all new materials. The be honest I haven't kept account as the steel was a left over form a project. All the other bits I had in the shed. I am a self confessed hoarder of useful junk. If you scrounged around a few demo yards you could pick up the steel, bits and pieces cheaper. The steel frame wouldn't need to be 65x65x1.6 size either more likely 50x25 would do the job nicely. Probably the most important and the most expensive item is the sliding door boggies @ $35 each. The pulleys which are ball bearing raced where $8.95 each. Castor wheel picked up at the maket $15 for 4. It's actually quite a simple design and has only taken about 2hrs so far to make. 

Chap Chap


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## Bribie G

When Chappo and Sully arrive with the beast I'm going to strap them to chairs and, after plying them with strong drink, they can watch a brew at least till the end of the dunk sparge, after which of course the boil is the same as a 3V or any other system. With the dunk sparge I don't actually reserve any strike water, I use extra water... sorry liquor...and end up with - theoretically - a bit too much wort at the start of boil.

However with the Birko, a 60 min boil was filling the cube nicely at the end of the day, but a 90 min boil was losing a bit too much to evaporation during a good rolling boil. A couple of times I topped up with boiling water then thought "hey this water would be better used for sparging" and I saw on the forum that some guys were doing just that.

I do the odd 60 min boil still, for example with a small grain bill doing a can o coopers heretic FES and also with dark milds where I feel it gives a 'fresher' grain character but nearly always do 90 mins, and even up to 2 hours with lager malts / maize in case of DMS.

So from Chappo's POV with a more dilute wort at the start of boil, could it have a marginal effect on hop utilisation I wonder? Although I believe that Chappo is now into 90 min boils on Sherman anyway.

Edit: and Chappo can finally get to hug my doonah :wub:


----------



## Katherine

As a wise brewer said to me not long ago, beer karma you do good things you make good beer! So there is hope for you yet Chappo (kidding)... Thats fantastic I want one. LOL! 

there will be no stopping Bribie now!


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## chappo1970

Katie said:


> As a wise brewer said to me not long ago, beer karma you do good things you make good beer! So there is hope for you yet Chappo (kidding)... Thats fantastic I want one. LOL!
> 
> there will be no stopping Bribie now!




I'm hoping Bribie will have the opportunity to brew one of his AABC (winning h34r: ) entries on the rig.

I'm hoping beer karma blesses me this weekend Katie....


----------



## Bribie G

Katie said:


> As a wise brewer said to me not long ago, beer karma you do good things you make good beer! So there is hope for you yet Chappo (kidding)... Thats fantastic I want one. LOL!
> 
> there will be no stopping Bribie now!



Yup. I can't wait, compared to the current system:






Whenever I stand on the chair to fit the rope to the skyhook I'm sure the neighbours are tempted to call the Police and Lifeline, so big stress relief all round


----------



## reviled

I like it B) 

Ive allways thought about a BIAB rig, I would probably go 3v personally with the kettle, sparge bucket, and hlt just for conveniance and cos of my batch sparge step... Ive also considered the recirculating in BIAB Chappo and reckon it would be a wicked idea! 

ATM im doing a mini batch sparge on the grain bed once I lift it out of the bag and put it into the sparge bucket, and then recirc a couple of times, I dont see why this couldnt be a recirculated fly sparge, you could even maybe do it with a mix of the bulk wort from the kettle and water from an hlt :blink: ?????? hmmmm.. The plot thickens...


----------



## Pollux

mmmmm, with that info in mind I might contact the old man (he is also a compulsive hoarder, and he can weld) and we can have a chat about it, then it's just a matter of getting him to bring it with him next time he comes to Sydney.

OR

Find a fellow BIABer in Sydney who can weld and work together to make two in one day.


----------



## hairyson

PistolPatch said:


> Man, that is a big pot! If you get time, please post us some pics.


The pot (98 litres) looks strangely small in this photo:


(I was trying to swing off the rope... ended up just falling down!)
You can also see our budget pot stand, budget bottle drying rack (bottom right), and my super budget beanie.

the bag looks impressively big in this photo (filled with 11kg grain, probably weighs about 20kg when we first haul it out):


We don't have any trouble with this weight in the bag. Just loop the rope around the bag a couple of times before hauling, in a half-hitch kind of way.

ben.


----------



## crundle

How did you go for efficiency with an 11kg grain bill Benny? Did you use any sparge or just a squeezing of the bag? I am gathering it was a double batch, so you might have had more water initially anyway, just interested because when I did a single batch using 9kg of grain, my efficiency dropped considerably, even with a sparge step added.

Crundle


----------



## hairyson

crundle said:


> How did you go for efficiency with an 11kg grain bill Benny?


Ha! Funny you should ask...
Yeh, it was a double batch, so we had something like 57 litres during the mash. I need to get some numbers off one of the other fellas to work it out properly, but I don't think it was too bad. There were some extenuating circumstances though: we screwed up a hydrometer reading. I kind of missed the main bit, but I think we misread the hydrometer, leading to wrong SG reading (after correction for temp), leading to miscalc of efficiency, leading to adding some extract (which was unneccesary), meaning an OG of 1070, when we were aiming for about 1060. I suppose back of the envelope we had about 60--65%...?


----------



## PistolPatch

*Chappo:* I'm saving you until the end. Read my note to crundle first though  

*Benny:* Thanks for the pics Benny. The pot does look small in the photo! BTW, instead of using the kid's hand puppets, you can get industrial rubber gloves from any hardware .

On top of your brew stand (did Chappo weld that up for you?) what are you using? The bottom bit of yours looks similiar to what I use which is some fire-rated stuff about 20mm thick. It has served me well for a few years now but started cracking a few months ago and has now fallen apart  . I need a replacement.

*crundle:* It might take a few batches to get your figures right for doubles. I measured my last few doubles pretty carefully and found no difference in efficiency between those and my singles. I also used to spend ages trying to calculate the "exact" correction of hops to throw in for a double batch. Now I just double the recipe and this works very well. Different software can give you all sorts of different answers and these are not necessarily correct as butters referred to above.

One thing I found very interesting was a talk from the head brewer at Little Creatures. Really nice bloke who talked to us about hops. He's a pretty humble but very enthusiastic guy and works a fair bit on inutition when he is brewing something like Little Creatures Pale Ale. Why? Because he has to.

He explained that much of the hop science we have is very contradicitory and all of us had to agree with the science he pulled up. He uses the science as a base but continually assesses the end result of each batch using his mouth. Once again because he has to.

The availability and specs of the various hops he uses in LCPA are far from consistent. One batch might have a single flavour or aroma hop addition being made up of 20%/80% combination of 2 varieties of hops, a few months later it could well be something like a 30/30/30 combination of 3 varieties. From memory, their hops are stored at lagering temps, not freezer temps like we store ours so age adjustments have to be done as well.

So, onto Chappo....

*Chappo:* Having your own BIAB set-up to do small batches is a great idea but I don't think it is a great idea if your goal is to see if upping grain used in a recipe from 20% to 21% makes a magical difference. It won't of course. Same as if you add 23 grams of bittering hops instead of 22 grams at even 15% AA on a single batch. It won't make a magical difference and in a blind tasting, you'd be lucky if 1 in 50 people could pick it.

Little Creatures is a small brewery. Our set-ups are miniscule breweries. LC know that every LCPA they produce is a unique brew. In most areas (apart from the ability to freeze hops) they are way ahead of us miniscule brewers in the control area yet they accept this variance and make quite bold changes from batch to batch depending on what ingredients they have available at the time. (For example, using Galaxy instead of Amarillo.)

If LC can make major changes to a beer recipe then we miniscule brewers should have the confidence to do likewise.

What is their secret? Just a robust recipe. In fact, NRB's All Amarillo American Ale recipe is a slightly smoother version of LCPA and you can throw the hops around in that every which way and still get a brilliant yet distinctive beer.

What I am trying to say Chappo (and I know you love my long posts - lol) is that a pilot system should be used to test out brand new recipes that you have been unable to taste first-hand. If they taste great on your pilot, they will taste great on the Sherman.

If you get to taste a beer first-hand that is brilliant and trust the original brewer to give you an accurate ball-park recipe, then you should be able to brew double-batches of that beer straight away.

If it doesn't taste as great as you remember, then the recipe is not robust.

Gotta go now. Was just on the phone to Katie and I can't remember if she asked me where I was sleeping tomorrow night or if I wanted to sleep with her? Suppose I'll find out tomorrow. Lucky LloydieP doesn't read this thread .

Pat


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## chappo1970

PP I think you've taken me to literally but I apreciate what you have to say. Still nirvana would be a pitch more here and a poofteenth there which is near impossible. We will discuss Sunday while your hung over.

Love

Chap Chap


----------



## LLoyd

You bastard Patch! When I offered to keep you company in Prague your first question was "How good a shag are you?" Are you just using me to get to my missus?
Well hell hath no fury like a Lloydie scorned...
Here goes slag, you asked for it... PISTOL PATCH TASTES SALTY!!! There now EVERYONE knows....
Lloydie :lol:


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## pants

I'm posting a pictorial log of my BIAB brew day weekend as it happens to this thread: [topic="36988"]While the wife's away...[/topic]. 

Steve.


----------



## PistolPatch

Chappo said:


> PP I think you've taken me to literally but I apreciate what you have to say. Still nirvana would be a pitch more here and a poofteenth there which is near impossible. We will discuss Sunday while your hung over.
> 
> Love
> 
> Chap Chap



I'm glad to see you wrote, "Love," love, but you could have sent me a heads up that Lloydie actually reads this thread.

Yeah, I know that I took your post literally but I always like to err on the side that new brewers read this thread and they don't take things just literally.

Look at Lloydie's post below. I was happy to sleep with Katie but Lloydie has taken it totally the wrong way.... 



LloydieP said:


> You bastard Patch! When I offered to keep you company in Prague your first question was "How good a shag are you?" Are you just using me to get to my missus?
> Well hell hath no fury like a Lloydie scorned...
> Here goes slag, you asked for it... PISTOL PATCH TASTES SALTY!!! There now EVERYONE knows....
> Lloydie :lol:



Lloydie, I only asked Katie if you were a good root so as I would know whether it was worth the time and effort in me courting that sister of yours. The photo you provided simply didn't cut it though I was prepared to let aesthetics slide. From the feedback that Katie gave me, I don't think I'll be slipping her down the Blue Danube with me let alone throwing my sausage down that hallway.

Sorry about that mate. We'll talk more tomorrow.


Pat

P.S. Pants, I am monitoring your thread - good stuff! Give it heaps.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

If you guy's miss-behave tomorrow on the deck I will have to show you the out doors sleeping area.LOL Right next to the cool room. Lots of beer but F..ing cold.For me its by the fire place!
Nev


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## nikgr

Just a small contribution from one wanabe biab brewer .I think somebody asked for how to construct a rig for BIAB and I have found this link (propably you have found it allready) so you can inspired a bit to build something...
http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/shop_co...raumeister-200l

and also here it might be more clear photos

http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/media/c...ter_200l_en.pdf

I hope this is gona be helpfull :icon_chickcheers:


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## buttersd70

nikgr said:


> Just a small contribution from one wanabe biab brewer .I think somebody asked for how to construct a rig for BIAB and I have found this link (propably you have found it allready) so you can inspired a bit to build something...
> http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/shop_co...raumeister-200l
> 
> and also here it might be more clear photos
> 
> http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/media/c...ter_200l_en.pdf
> 
> I hope this is gona be helpfull :icon_chickcheers:





> Brewing makes fun


Gold!


Seriously (or at least semi seriously), isn't this the same mob that makes that well expensive mash/fermentation system as used by James in 'Drink to Britain' ?


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## mwd

Not quite that was the Brumas brewing machine The Mercedes Benz SL of homebrewing.
Ze Linkum Achtung Spitfiren


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## RdeVjun

buttersd70 said:


> Gold!


I'll say! I've always wanted my own gibbet though, looks like I'll have to build one...

Lots of 'purifying', hope it doesn't get confused with 'essential oil' craft and modded off! 

Edit: And not a pillowcase to been seen anywhere. :blink:


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## nikgr

I found the pulley thing and the base for the pot on the attached links very interesting to try a set up if somebody have space to store it like a garage and for a small pot like 60 liters is gona be quite small.


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## Thirsty Boy

Isn't the circle a wonderful thing .. I'm not sure if this is the first or the second time this thread has come back around to the Braumeister.

Those units - or ones very like them - were the reason that BIAB was invented in the first place.

Someone said something along the lines of "*hey*, do you think there might be a way to brew all in one vessel?? .. maybe you could do a bucket inside a bucket thing??" someone else said "*hey*, the Europeans have been brewing beer this way for ages link to brewmeister and think that all of us who brew in 3 vessel units are mad" - someone else said... "*yeah*, but those things are 5000 friggin euros... I reckon you could do it with a couple of buckets, a pump and an electric element..." conversation ensues... then PP goes "*wait a second*... what if you used a polyester bag instead of an interior bucket..." and things take off from there.

BIAB was a conscious effort to emulate, in a simple cheap and accessible way - those very units that people linked to.

Which is why the myriad of "BIAB can't possibly work" arguments never quite made sense to me... this wasn't even a new idea or a new way of brewing... it was only ever a very clever and imaginative variation on an existing brewing technique. It managed to take several thousand euros and several levels of complexity away from the brewmeister... and yet do exactly the same thing.

I know its 80 pages long people... but seriously, if you are contemplating investing hundreds and hundreds of dollars into a purpose built BIAB rig... you might get some serious benefit from reading the _whole_ of this thread and the pre-cursor threads it links to in the first few posts.

NOT - that that doesn't mean I don't like the BIAB rigs I have seen posted recently, I do!! But they are coming closer and closer to simply closing the circle.. which is kinda cool really.

TB


----------



## nikgr

I agree with you but isn't the same thing happen when someboby brews with a 3 vessel system ? First you have the stuff lying arround and when you mastered the techniques you are looking to rig all the stuff to something more "shiny", "cool" looking thing... Eventually the braumaister 200liter is a Brew In A Can system so I believe that someone steal the idea of some Biab Rigs form this forum .


----------



## troopa

What are the 3 filter plates int eh basket and how do they help
is it just a matter of sperating the grain bill to allow more wliquid to flow around the grain?

Cant quite figure it out in my head

Tom


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## Thirsty Boy

nikgr said:


> I agree with you but isn't the same thing happen when someboby brews with a 3 vessel system ? First you have the stuff lying arround and when you mastered the techniques you are looking to rig all the stuff to something more "shiny", "cool" looking thing... Eventually the braumaister 200liter is a Brew In A Can system so I believe that someone steal the idea of some Biab Rigs form this forum .



Hey I'm not knocking anything that anyone is doing - just suggesting that a thorough read of this whole thread might save them some design headaches. A lot of this stuff has been tossed around in the past... and its fairly apparent that if you chuck enough stainless and other gadgets into BIAB.. you end up basically at the Braumeister. (witness chappo's suggestion about re-circulating BIAB systems) So if people are interested in traveling that road - well, the journey is a bit easier if you already have a good idea what the destination looks like.

A bit of patient searching of Euro home brewer forums will also turn up a bunch of home made versions of Braumeister type systems that could well spark an idea or two in the head of someone who was dedicated to the notion of making more (physically) solid and/or more "bling" the BIAB process.

Tryin' to help not hinder

My previous post was more introspection than anything else.

As for your last sentence - if you are suggesting that BIAB was an idea stolen from the Braumeister... well, it kinda was, sorta. If you are saying Braumeister pinched it from us... well nope, they were there first.



> What are the 3 filter plates int eh basket and how do they help
> is it just a matter of sperating the grain bill to allow more wliquid to flow around the grain?



I'm not sure if there are actually three plates - or if the diagram is just meant to illustrate that they are adjustable ... only two "arrows" point to filter plates, a top and bottom, and the smaller 20 & 50L versions only have two plates.

If there are three - I think your guess about separating the mash might well be a good one


TB


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## nikgr

Sory I it was'nt my intention to flame.I had no hard feelings for someone propably because my nature language is not English may be I became confused .My opinion is same as yours keep it simple but working.As for my last sentence I mean that the rig (pulley and base) used in braumeister 200liters maybe it is a copy from some people's rigs in this forum because braumeister 200liter is presented these days.


----------



## argon

Got the first BIAB AG done on Sunday... did a little LCPA Clone, bit of rip off from the recipe Brown Dog put up a while back, with a few changes in the hops department to keep things simple and a bit cheaper (used 90g of Chinook cause it comes in 90g batches)

Batch Size 23L
Mash at 66C for 60mins
Boil 60mins

3.75 kg Pale Malt
1.00 kg Munich I 
0.35 kg Wheat Malt 
0.35 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine
40g Goldings, East Kent Pellets 
5 g Chinook @ 60 min
30 g Cascade @ 20 min
30 g Cascade @ 10 min
10 g Chinook @ 5 min
50 g Chinook @ Flameout
25 g Chinook Dry Hop

US 05

The whole day went great, first time i've done a full volume and first time all grain. Also first time I gave the Keggle a run.





Bringing the water up to strike temp. Used the old stockpot to cover the cutout to keep the heat in.




Adding the grain




Mash Temp




Mashing away nicely. Note i didn't get the bag sewed up just got a couple of metres of swiss voile and layed it in the keggle. Cake rack in the bottom of course. Worked well enough. Next time i'll get it sewed up though, bit awkward holding the bag and giving the mash a bit of a stir.




Still mashing, gave the cars a wash while i waited, productive day really. dropped to 64 after about 40mins gave it a 10 min burst on the 3 ring to 68. Raised the temp to 72 for 10 mins after the 60 min mash. Extracted the grain into the stockpot. Added a couple of litres of boiled water from the kettle to sparge the grain, gave it a quick squeeze and added to the boil.




Suspended the hop sock from the Mash paddle. Got quite full, for the flameout addition I used a grain bag instead. 

Didn't take any photos of the transfer, but after giving it a little manual whirlpool and letting it sit for 20 mins or so. Used the new ball valve and transfered it to a 25L Cube for the night.




Monday night transferred into fermenter and pitched at 23degrees. Under the house stays a fairly constant temp of 18 in the day and drops to about 16 at night. Dry hop in couple of days and then wait it out. 

Hit OG of 1060 in the fermenter for just under 23L, so very happy. The whole thing was so simple and rewarding. For the first batch I think it went quite well. 
Next time i'll get the bag made up and maybe investigate getting a better stand for the keggle and burner, Not sure how long those bricks are gonna hold out.

Will post more pics at dry hopping, bottling and tasting. Thanks to all the contributers to this thread. Gave me a good amount of confidence to jump in a give it a go.


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## reviled

Good stuff Argon, looks like it all went well :icon_cheers: Welcome to BIAB!


----------



## argon

reviled said:


> Good stuff Argon, looks like it all went well :icon_cheers: Welcome to BIAB!




Thanks... I think it went really well for a first time AG... a few tweaks over the next few brews and I think it'll be a doddle... love the simplicity of it all.


----------



## katzke

argon said:


> Thanks... I think it went really well for a first time AG... a few tweaks over the next few brews and I think it'll be a doddle... love the simplicity of it all.



Simplicity?

You missed the entire point of BIAB being a complicated unresolvable brewing method that dose not work.

Have you not learned anything from 80 pages of posts?

In fact I think because you brewed with out a true bag we need to rename the entire thing to BIAS or brew in a sheet. It would save lots of new brewers having to beg the mother-in-law to sew up a bag for the proper BIAB. Besides BIAS is a fitting name for the system. All the traditional mashers do have a bias against those of us that dare to be different.

Then the entire discussion of a pillow case or sleeping bag approach to bag design would be eliminated.

So from now on I am no longer a BIABer but a BIAS brewer or BIASer. It is up to the rest of you to figure out what a new BIAS brewer is. I think the old term I coined was a BIABy. I am sure a culture that has its own slang will come up with a suitable name for first time BIASers.

Yep I am happy from drink though not from beer. My last brew is in limbo because I have no way to cool it and let the Gelatin that I added settle properly. Lucky for me Winter is knocking on the door (may snow tonight). For those of you that have Summer bearing down on you I recommend a Wit with Raw Wheat and your choice of malt. You can brew an easy drinker or a sneaky high alcohol brew. I think the Raw Wheat counter acts the alcohol. And with brewing in a sheet we do not have to worry about stuck sparges like the other guys do. You can play with hops and yeast if you do not like a traditional Belgian brew. I think the Coriander and Orange peal are important. For Orange peal you can use store oranges and feed the inside to the family or eat them your self. I find 2 large oranges are enough but you may like 3 if you can use them. A tip, you can put the skinned orange in the fridge in a bag for a day or 2 so you can eat the offal from your brewing.


----------



## tumi2

Hi there
Have not posted in this thread in a while so thought i would update people on how my BIAB is going.

I have now completed 4 AG beers.

1) Simple English Bitter
2) another attempt at an English bitter the same as above
3) Little Creatures Bright Ale Clone
4) another attempt at the Bright Ale Clone

As you can see i have repeated each brew twice. With the English bitter i was trying to troubleshoot a flavour i did not like (my posts about this are somewhere in this thread). I am pretty sure this was the S04 yeast that i used and dont intend to use it again.

The first batch i did i have finished and it was drinkable and got better after about 6 weeks. Unfortunately i ditched half of it after 3 weeks!!! the second English Bitter was simply not drinkable so i ditched that one keeping a few to try later on. They have not improved. I have kept a few samples of all my beers so far and one thing i have realised is that patience is a virtue and beers really do get better after about 6 weeks or so.

I then decided to change my beer and went for the LCBA clone.

I am currently drinking my first attempt at that and i am really happy with the taste and aroma. Unfortunately it is quite cloudy and has no head what so ever. 

So i currently have my second attempt at this LCBA using the same recipe and process except that i am cold chilling for a few extra days and also and using isinglass during the cold chilling stage. This will get bottled tomorrow night so i hope it is clearer.

So onto the clearing beer topic is there something in BIAB that makes clearing beer more difficult.? I also no chill so this may be the cause. 

Does the boil effect beer clarity? 
When i boil i tend to keep it pretty soft with a light turning of the wort. I now have a rocket ship italian spiral burner so i could aim for a much more rigorous boil.

What about the mash out in BIAB? I sparge with a pot of hot sparge water but i have not raised the wort in the kettle while the grain is still inside. Does this have any effect on clarity of wort going into no-chill?

_I_ am really thankful for the info i got in this thread as i now intend to only ever AG brew and so far cant see why i would change from BIAB.

My last question is what to do next? I am leaning towards a American Pale Ale.


----------



## PistolPatch

*Argon - * Congratulations to you and nice pics :icon_cheers: 

*tumi2 - * I've got an hour to spare so here you go... 

SO4: Good idea to steer clear of the SO4 for a while. It can be quite an unpopular yeast for many palates.

Clearing Beer: BIAB should be no different to getting clear beer than traditional. Let your wort settle for twenty minutes before you put it in the cube. Don't drain off every last inch of wort. Allow for some wastage in your recipe calculations. If you are having clarity problems, make sure you do a 90 minute boil and ensure it is a medium rolling boil regardless of your evaporation rate. (Evaporation rates vary greatly from vessel to vessel. Yours will be on the high side with your 50lt pot.) DON'T simmer your wort - boil it. When racking from no-chill cube to fermenter, once again, don't drain every last drop. Leave the crap behind. After fermentation, chill your fermenter to 0-2 degrees for say 4 days and then rack it to your keg. That should give you very clear beer. If not, start looking at your pH. Isinglass works well but add it to the cold wort.

Pale Ale Recipe: Try NRB's All Amarillo American Pale Ale. It is a recipe that you can alter greatly and still get a beautiful beer. It is my house beer and quite a few other brewers I know use it as their house beer. It is a beer enjoyed by a huge range of palates, young and old, male and female. It is a less sharp version of Little Creatures Pale Ale and the brewers I know prefer it to Dr Smurto's JSGA recipe so you should be quite pleased with the result.

Look forward to hearing how you go.

Spot,
Pat

P.S. That only took 20 minutes - a record!


----------



## flattop

For the record, i had one BIAB brew that turned out incredibly cloudy it was a Dr Smurto's GA (no reflection on the creator). I forgot the whirfloc and the gelatin later on.
The brew looks like mud although the first glass from the bottle can be clear, once the bottle is cracked the gas raises the mud from the bottom so the second glass is always very muddy, I mean yarra river muddy (i'm talking cut it with a knife cloudy).
I clearly did something wrong, that said it tastes fine!
My following brews were fine, no idea what went wrong. 

I love BIAB, unfortunately i have been so busy the last few months i've actually bought a couple of Liquid wort kits to keep stocks high for summer.


----------



## bullsneck

Just purchased a Crown Urn. So excited! I'll be BIABing in no time.

Can't wait to delve into the AG world!

:icon_offtopic: Anyone know a good place to purchase some cubes for no-chill in SE Melb?


----------



## DUANNE

i got all my cubes from rays outdoors for about 10 bucks each. or you can get the willow or bmw style ones at bunnings for around 20 bucks for memory. i tried the jerry can style ones but they didnt work for me and just use the square ones from rays now.2c


----------



## bullsneck

Cheers, BH.

Rays close to work.

Come to think of it, doesn't the jingle go...

_Ray's Outdoors, come see what we got.
From tents to no-chill cubes, we got the lot._


----------



## tumi2

Rays Outdoors in Camperdown Sydney now have plenty of cubes in stock. They are a dime a dozen there so get in fast if you want some. They have 25 liters and 15 liter cubes but not the 20 liters cubes they had last year. They will be getting the 20 liter ones which actually fit 23 liters but they dont know when and have had trouble getting the current stocks.


----------



## Bribie G

I note that Rays are in Perth now, hopefully they will get up this way eventually. You would think that QLD would be an ideal market.


----------



## WarmBeer

bullsneck said:


> :icon_offtopic: Anyone know a good place to purchase some cubes for no-chill in SE Melb?



I use one from a Fresh Wort Kit from Grain & Grape. 

Only fits about 17 lt, but that suits my current boil pot size, plus means I get to brew more often :beerbang: 

Saw a 20lt cube in the Home Hardware near Caulfield station, if that's anywhere close to home (SE Melb is a BIIIG area)


----------



## chappo1970

Thirsty Boy said:


> <Snip> ... you end up basically at the Braumeister. (witness chappo's suggestion about re-circulating BIAB systems) So if people are interested in traveling that road - well, the journey is a bit easier if you already have a good idea what the destination looks like.
> 
> TB


I resemble that remark!

Well after plenty of umming and arghhing I'm heading down that road. Basically going to use what I already have in the brewery just in a different configuration to suit a more hybred BIAB. Still only for experimental brews but it does make complete sense to me to do it. I guess the purist BIABers will get their knickers in a knot but so be it.

Bought a 20lt Urn the other day just need to sort out the pillow case and the plumbing. Probably will make a little rig for it so I use up floor space and not the premium bench space. Also making it easier to transfer the pump between rigs.

Chap Chap


----------



## muckey

Chappo said:


> Bought a 20lt Urn the other day just need to sort out the pillow case and the plumbing. Probably will make a little rig for it so I use up floor space and not the premium bench space. Also making it easier to transfer the pump between rigs.
> 
> Chap Chap




so you're going to start a 'brew in a handbag' rig????  

does sherman know??


----------



## PistolPatch

Looking forward to the pics of that Chappo :icon_cheers:


----------



## O'Henry

I have read through bits of this thread over the past few months, but really it is just too long. My question didnt really warrant another thread, so I figured I could put it here. 

I am planning to BIAB (ish) tomorrow put have no tap on the boiler (50l saucepan). I will be no chilling. What is the best way to get it out of the boiler and into the cube? I have 2m of tubing I use for racking that I got at a LHBS. I am unsure of what else to do/use. 
I thought maybe I could sterilise the cube with boiling water (of which I have plenty to fill it) and then just chill the wort in the boiler, down to about 60/70C, in an industrial freezer (also close at hand) and then syphon it out.

Any advice?


----------



## PistolPatch

Good luck tomorrow O'Henry :icon_cheers: 

I think you really need to use silicone hose to syphon very hot wort. Other ones are not rated to the high temp and can give some pretty bad flavours. So, what should you do?...

Just let it sit in the kettle overnight. I occasionally do this and put foil around the lid. Syphon it gently the next morning, gradually lowering your syphon until it stops running clear and then pitch your yeast as soon as you can. This works fine.

Look forward to hearing how you go,
Pat


----------



## O'Henry

Hey PP. Thanks for the reply. If I let it cool partially and then cubed it, would this work? Can't really leave it to sit out and cool naturally in the pot... I might have to give it away, rather than waste all my time and ingredients on a bung batch. Should just do it when there are no time restrictions on the stove...


----------



## RdeVjun

O said:


> Hey O'Henry, please don't give it away mate, you have a couple of options!
> 
> I can't see there's a great deal of difference cooling the wort in a pot or a NC cube, either naturally or assisted/ forced. Basically both methods rely on sanitary cooling, NC has the advantage of remaining sealed until it is needed. Putting hot wort into a cube thoroughly sanitises it though, whereas the pot is sanitary from a hour or more of boiling.
> 
> I actually cool my stockpot in the laundry tub most of the time and then pour it out through a sieve (catching whole hops and some break) into the fermenter the next day when it has cooled and then pitch a starter into freshly- aerated wort. The pot needs a lid, but as PP says, some foil will suffice and this skips the cube entirely. So, for now you could do much the same with your pot in the freezer? Or just do as you've suggested, chill it in the freezer and then syphon it into a sanitary cube (BTW, yes, hot water is OK, don't forget the lid and seal too! I often do...), but I'd chill it a bit further so the hose can handle it.
> 
> It sounds like you only have access to the stove/ kitchen/ whatever for a short while, in which case, NC is probably the best way to go, but to do that in the long run you'd be better off with the silicon tubing and if you can fit a tap to the pot it would be easy as, but this may not be an option so syphoning would be the way to go.
> If your pot was smaller I'd even suggest just pouring it into a NC cube while hot (with a funnel and sieve), but this is only likely to work safely with a smaller pot. I did this for ages with a 20 litre stockpot and found that HSA, at homebrewing scales, is just a load of old rot...
> 
> Hope it works out for you! :beer:


----------



## Thunus

[quote name='O'Henry' post='538807' date='Oct 18 2009, 11:07 PM']I have read through bits of this thread over the past few months, but really it is just too long. My question didnt really warrant another thread, so I figured I could put it here. 

I am planning to BIAB (ish) tomorrow put have no tap on the boiler (50l saucepan). I will be no chilling. What is the best way to get it out of the boiler and into the cube? I have 2m of tubing I use for racking that I got at a LHBS. I am unsure of what else to do/use. 
I thought maybe I could sterilise the cube with boiling water (of which I have plenty to fill it) and then just chill the wort in the boiler, down to about 60/70C, in an industrial freezer (also close at hand) and then syphon it out.

Any advice?[/quote]

Here are some shots of my pot, I have used 1/2 inch brass all thread and 2 flanged nuts, cut up some of the wifes tupaware to make washers. Others I know have cut washers from leather gloves which has worked as well. Inside is a brass 1/2 inch compression fitting and some flexible brass tube. I have fitted a stainles tap but a brass one would have been fine. I then use silicon hose to fill my cubes no chill. All of the parts will be available from your local plumbing shop.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

O said:


> could[/i] be a problem... ergo the test
> 
> TB


----------



## nikgr

I found a source for material in my country and I took photos of a sample do you think is this good for Biab?
photos
photos2
photos3
photos4
I believe it is nylon or polyester and it is a very fine mesh cloth in some pictures are more magnified than looking by eye


----------



## katzke

nikgr said:


> I found a source for material in my country and I took photos of a sample do you think is this good for Biab?



It looks about right. Cannot say for sure with out a reference. Post a picture with a ruler so we can see what the mesh looks like. Then we can say for sure.


----------



## stevewahb

Hi All,

Tomorrow I will brew my first AG (Scottish Ale 70) using BIAB as my method of choice, ever since reading a little article about it in BYO magazine earlier this year and reading most of the posts on the web site since with great interest. If it were not for BIAB I would probably still be Extract focused.

Will report back in the coming days on my experience.

Regards,

texasranger


----------



## Macca17

Been procrastinating long enough, so will be doing my first AG this week, as soon as I get the last of 
my ingredients from Ross  Hopefully haven't left it too long for an nice German Bock for Chrissy.


----------



## argon

Opened the first bottle tonight from my first biab I posted here a little while back... Good lord am I happy with myself right now.

Honestly, best beer ever! Now to plan the next one. Anyone thinking of ag biab, get into straight away... No regrets. Got the bag sewn up now by mum, who did a great job. Column shaped with elastic drawstring and 8 tabs for lifting wet grain. Also got my SS pulleys and cleats for the new rig made from some steel shelving from bunnings ( will have to post pics soon of the new rig )


----------



## Hashie

Well done argon, there will be no looking back for you now!


----------



## mrcmatt

Thanks for putting all this great information in one place. I used the black ale spreadsheet to make my own. I posted it here http://brewlogblog.blogspot.com/2009/11/br...-checklist.html on my brew blog: http://brewlogblog.blogspot.com/ 

thanks again


----------



## Elbow

Just got back from Spills and TB's demo at Grain and Grape this morning. Really good demo, I think around 10 showed up. I reckon myself and 9 others will be jumping right into BIAB after Spills and TB's excellent demo. I had no idea all grain could be *that* simple.

Got my Swiss Voil from Spotlight. Burner and 50 litre pot in the next few weeks and i'm away!


----------



## fcmcg

Elbow said:


> Just got back from Spills and TB's demo at Grain and Grape this morning. Really good demo, I think around 10 showed up. I reckon myself and 9 others will be jumping right into BIAB after Spills and TB's excellent demo. I had no idea all grain could be *that* simple.
> 
> Got my Swiss Voil from Spotlight. Burner and 50 litre pot in the next few weeks and i'm away!


Elbow...i was there too...which bloke were you ?
Ferg


----------



## Elbow

fergthebrewer said:


> Elbow...i was there too...which bloke were you ?
> Ferg



The guy with the blue and red top who had to leave just before the end. What time did it end up finishing up?


----------



## stevewahb

argon said:


> Opened the first bottle tonight from my first biab I posted here a little while back... Good lord am I happy with myself right now.
> 
> Honestly, best beer ever! Now to plan the next one. Anyone thinking of ag biab, get into straight away... No regrets. Got the bag sewn up now by mum, who did a great job. Column shaped with elastic drawstring and 8 tabs for lifting wet grain. Also got my SS pulleys and cleats for the new rig made from some steel shelving from bunnings ( will have to post pics soon of the new rig )



Hi Argon,

Great to see that you are very happy with your first BIAB. I am a few weeks behind you, given I only brewed up last weekend. A few questions for you (& wide community), if you don't mind?

1/ Did you No-Chill ?
2/ Did you get a significant about of suspended material? 

While a considerable amount has already fallen out (Brew: Scottish ale 70) during the first week of fermentation, I can only guess that it will take a considerable period to fully clear.

3/ If so, how long did your beer take to clear?

Just interested more than anything at this point in time in your answers to see if what I am seeing is in line with others BIAB experience?


----------



## Macca17

Finally did my first BIAB and No Chill, didn't realise the grain could 
soak up that much moisture. Tasted ok and despite some wort going over the table 
and onto the ground, ended up with nearly 23 litres in the fermenter.
Next time will sit the Urn on the ground so can get enough clearance to pull the bag up 
properly to squeeze the wort out.


----------



## Bribie G

texasranger said:


> Hi Argon,
> 
> Great to see that you are very happy with your first BIAB. I am a few weeks behind you, given I only brewed up last weekend. A few questions for you (& wide community), if you don't mind?
> 
> 1/ Did you No-Chill ?
> 2*/ Did you get a significant about of suspended material? *
> 
> While a considerable amount has already fallen out (Brew: Scottish ale 70) during the first week of fermentation, I can only guess that it will take a considerable period to fully clear.
> 
> 3/ If so, how long did your beer take to clear?
> 
> Just interested more than anything at this point in time in your answers to see if what I am seeing is in line with others BIAB experience?



Hi Texas, just happened on your post here, and I'm currently doing a BIAB Aussie Sparkling. If you use whirlfloc and give it a rest for the crud to fall out before sending the wort to the no-chill cube or the chiller, it should be crystal clear, so no 'suspended material'. What I'll do is post a photo of my current brew when It's been boiled in about an hour from now.
:icon_cheers:


----------



## adumicic

Hey Bribie, I had the same deal with the suspended material as texasranger (also brewed last weekend for my first AG BIAB) and realized about an hour after i pitched the yeast I forgot the whirlfloc. I was thinking of using Polyclar to help clean it up. Do you think that's going to make a significant difference?


----------



## Bribie G

Polyclar removes chill haze after fermentation so probably won't help you . However using something like gelatine finings after primary fermentation would probably clear out any floaters etc. 

Now, I'm using an electric urn so after the boil, where I used whirlfloc and then let it sit for 10 minutes, the shyte has sunk to below the level of the tap so this is what I am getting out of the urn:





Should look just like the finished beer. If you are using some other method such as a pot and siphon then you may get floating stuff depending on what setup you have.


----------



## Macca17

BribieG said:


> If you use whirlfloc and give it a rest for the crud to fall out before sending the wort to the no-chill cube or the chiller, it should be crystal clear, so no 'suspended material'.
> :icon_cheers:



That's what I forgot to do, wait :huh: I put the 1/2 whirfloc tablet in with 10 mins to go but transferred to the cube basically straight away.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

whirlfloc just makes the particles of crud stick together, sink faster & maybe stick in a neater pile. If you are willing to wait a bit of extra time, you get the same result.

I finish my boil, wait maybe ten minutes for the churning caused by convection to die away (caused mostly by the residual heat in my cast iron burner, so it would take less time in an urn or with an electric element) - then when things aren't turning over by themselves anymore, I whirpool. I give my kettle a good 30mins for the whirlpool to settle, then my pick-up tube takes clear wort away from the edge.

Dont use too much whirlfloc - it can make things wore rather than better. Half a tablet to a single batch is plenty.

If you got it in your cube, you can just siphon out of the cube leaving it behind - or put it in your fermenter where it will all sink to the bottom. It should, no matter which option you pick, have basically no influence on the clarity of your beer.

Polyclar will do absolutely nothing - gelatin would maybe help, but isn't needed anyway, this stuff will sink on its own.

TB


----------



## Macca17

I wasn't worried, read enough on here to ease my mind  Next brew should be easier, I hope


----------



## argon

texasranger said:


> Hi Argon,
> 
> Great to see that you are very happy with your first BIAB. I am a few weeks behind you, given I only brewed up last weekend. A few questions for you (& wide community), if you don't mind?
> 
> 1/ Did you No-Chill ?
> 2/ Did you get a significant about of suspended material?
> 
> While a considerable amount has already fallen out (Brew: Scottish ale 70) during the first week of fermentation, I can only guess that it will take a considerable period to fully clear.
> 
> 3/ If so, how long did your beer take to clear?
> 
> Just interested more than anything at this point in time in your answers to see if what I am seeing is in line with others BIAB experience?




1. Yep I no-chilled... bunged it straight into the fermenter. (I know, this is considered somewhat of an infection and oxidation risk with the large air gap, but I was willing to take a punt) Waited till the next morning before pitching. I'm not really all that concerned with clarity. 

2. The first partial I did I was freaked out by how much trub there was compared to the kits and extracts (Above the line of the fermenter tap). So for this brew I whirlpoled about 10 mins after the boil had finished, waited 20 mins then drained via the ball valve on the pot. Didn't notice a great deal of suspended material. I also used a hop sock, so that would have cut down on the hops floating around.

3. The beer ended up reasonably clear, as you can see from the photo. No significant "bits" in there. As for chill haze, it doesn't bother me, especially for ales.

Here's the first glass of the first AG (had to taste before taking the photo) 3 weeks in primary and 4 weeks conditioning at room temp (decided to skip the secondary... cause I forgot). Then a couple of days in the fridge.




You'll be more than happy with your results. I hope it turns out as good as mine did. Good amount of body, good head retention and lacing and a wondeful aroma. I know people say Grapefruit with Chinook but i'm even getting some Mango aromas. Maybe the combo of the EKGolding, Cascade and Chinook? I can see this batch disapearing fast.

I can't wait for the next one... don't get that much time at the moment. 2 weeks from Sunday is the next booked in brew day.
Good luck with your brew mate... definately let us know how it turns out

BTW what was you recipe?


----------



## stevewahb

Thirsty Boy said:


> whirlfloc just makes the particles of crud stick together, sink faster & maybe stick in a neater pile. If you are willing to wait a bit of extra time, you get the same result.
> 
> I finish my boil, wait maybe ten minutes for the churning caused by convection to die away (caused mostly by the residual heat in my cast iron burner, so it would take less time in an urn or with an electric element) - then when things aren't turning over by themselves anymore, I whirpool. I give my kettle a good 30mins for the whirlpool to settle, then my pick-up tube takes clear wort away from the edge.
> 
> Dont use too much whirlfloc - it can make things wore rather than better. Half a tablet to a single batch is plenty.
> 
> If you got it in your cube, you can just siphon out of the cube leaving it behind - or put it in your fermenter where it will all sink to the bottom. It should, no matter which option you pick, have basically no influence on the clarity of your beer.
> 
> Polyclar will do absolutely nothing - gelatin would maybe help, but isn't needed anyway, this stuff will sink on its own.
> 
> TB



Hi Thirsty Boy,
I like the sound of your method. Switch off heat, wait 5~10 minutes, whirlpool slowly for a few minutes, then wait a good 30minutes for the crud to fall out.

At this point, should I then set the immersion chiller into action to cool wort down ASAP (another 20+ minutes), before siphoning off to the fermenter?


----------



## Macca17

argon said:


> BTW what was you recipe?



Sort of American Standard Lager, didn't really follow any set recipe.
5kg Pilsner
1kg Rice
400 grams Carapils
90 min mash at 69 (hopefully not too high)

then a 90 min boil
40g Centennial at 60 min
20g Amarillo at 30 min
10g Amarillo at 10 min
1/2 Whirlfloc also at 10.
OG was 1052, should have been a bit higher but had some spillage due to poor placement of Urn and pulley <_< 
but happy with 1052
No chilled overnight and is now fermenting at 12c with 2 pkts of Saflager.

Next brew will wait 10-15 mins before whirlpooling and then wait 30min
before transferring to cube. Will also place Urn in better possie to get more clearance for the bag.

Good to hear yours went well.


----------



## fergi

Thirsty Boy said:


> whirlfloc just makes the particles of crud stick together, sink faster & maybe stick in a neater pile. If you are willing to wait a bit of extra time, you get the same result.
> 
> I finish my boil, wait maybe ten minutes for the churning caused by convection to die away (caused mostly by the residual heat in my cast iron burner, so it would take less time in an urn or with an electric element) - then when things aren't turning over by themselves anymore, I whirpool. I give my kettle a good 30mins for the whirlpool to settle, then my pick-up tube takes clear wort away from the edge.
> 
> Dont use too much whirlfloc - it can make things wore rather than better. Half a tablet to a single batch is plenty.
> 
> If you got it in your cube, you can just siphon out of the cube leaving it behind - or put it in your fermenter where it will all sink to the bottom. It should, no matter which option you pick, have basically no influence on the clarity of your beer.
> 
> Polyclar will do absolutely nothing - gelatin would maybe help, but isn't needed anyway, this stuff will sink on its own.
> 
> TB




so if i am doing biab and no chill , do you still whirpool and if so after leaving it for 10 mins wouldnt this cool down too much for tipping into cube and sterlising with the boiling wort. thanks TB

fergi


----------



## Bribie G

In my case, if I am going to pitch the next day then if the cube is sanitized I don't pay much regard to the 'pasteurising' effect of the wort on the cube, I just trust that there are no nasties in the cube. However if I was going to store it for weeks or months I'd be a bit concerned about leaving it too long in the kettle.

Personally with my gear I find that a 10 minute settling out period is fine, the wee picture I posted earlier was after 10 minutes and was almost boiling.. I have to wear leather gardening gloves to get near the thing.


----------



## Macca17

I sanitize the cube anyway before using so shouldn't be any nasties in there.


----------



## adumicic

Thanks for the tips Bribie and TB. It's already in the fermenter for almost a week now so I'd think chances are the particles have settled by now regardless. Is is still worth considering adding polyclar to stop/reduce chill haze?

This was my first attempts at AG (after seeing NickJD's awesome beginners guide) so I just did my batch in a 15L pot (13L batch).


----------



## stevewahb

BribieG said:


> Polyclar removes chill haze after fermentation so probably won't help you . However using something like gelatine finings after primary fermentation would probably clear out any floaters etc.
> 
> Now, I'm using an electric urn so after the boil, where I used whirlfloc and then let it sit for 10 minutes, the shyte has sunk to below the level of the tap so this is what I am getting out of the urn:
> 
> View attachment 33101
> 
> 
> Should look just like the finished beer. If you are using some other method such as a pot and siphon then you may get floating stuff depending on what setup you have.



Hi BribeG,

Thanks for the pic of your latest batch, something to aim for on my next brew.
From all the responses read, I need to let the wort sit for a good 10 minutes after flame out, then whirlpool, wait for around another 20 minutes then fire up the immersion chiller and in to the fermenter once the temperature is close to target.

:icon_cheers:


----------



## Thirsty Boy

fergi said:


> so if i am doing biab and no chill , do you still whirpool and if so after leaving it for 10 mins wouldnt this cool down too much for tipping into cube and sterlising with the boiling wort. thanks TB
> 
> fergi



Nope - I leave it for 10 or so minutes (to stop convecting, ie self stirring), then whirlpool, then leave it for a further 30minutes to settle.

Its still above 90C by then and plenty hot enough to kill any of the hopefully very very few bugs that might be present in your cube, which you have of course already sanitised thoroughly.

No problems with extended storage of the wort after this as far as I am concerned. Or at least I certainly haven't had any.



texasranger said:


> Hi Thirsty Boy,
> I like the sound of your method. Switch off heat, wait 5~10 minutes, whirlpool slowly for a few minutes, then wait a good 30minutes for the crud to fall out.
> 
> At this point, should I then set the immersion chiller into action to cool wort down ASAP (another 20+ minutes), before siphoning off to the fermenter?



I'm no chilling - so the IC doesn't come into play. I also don't whirlpol slowly, I whirpool the crap out of it, spin it as fast as it will go.

When I was using an Immersion Chiller.. the chiller went into the kettle while it was still boiling (to sanitise it) and was then turned on immediately after the boil was done. Waiting for convection to stop when you are chilling anyway is just a waste of time.

Chill your beer down, then whirlpool OR whirlpool while the chiller is still in there.

TB


----------



## katzke

Thirsty Boy said:


> Chill your beer down, then whirlpool OR whirlpool while the chiller is still in there.
> 
> TB



I whirlpool after pulling the chiller. I find that getting the wort down the last few degrees is the hardest and so have to stir quite a bit to keep it moving around the chiller.


----------



## stevewahb

TB,

My motto for my next brew, as flame out occurs and the IC is just starting to run, "whirpool the crap out of it" for a few minutes.

Thanks.


----------



## killspice

Just finished my first AG BIAB (first was a partial lager that has just been bottled), using DrS' Golden Ale recipe slightly modified to use 30g Cluster for bittering as I only had enough amarillo for flavour/aroma.

I have done both my partial and AG in a 19L pot (concentrated boil, then top up). With 8 icecream containers of ice I am getting it cooled to pitching temp within 30-60min which I am pretty happy with. I am thinking I'll stick with this in the near future, avoiding the need for a large pot, and an alternate chill method (chiller or no-chill cubes). If it wasn't for BIAB i'd still be K&K, I just wish I had done the Golden Ale first as it would be drinkable by now (damn lagers) 

I hit 1050 (at about 25-30deg, so probably closer to 1052 officially) at 19L so I pretty much hit 75% efficiency (beersmith calculated 75% efficiency was 1050 @ 19L), so I am more than happy with that. Can't wait to try this one out, I love JSGA!


----------



## Damian44

Hi. Ive been trying to work something out in Beersmith, but its a bit beyond me. To save on gas and time id like to boil some water on the stove and add it to the mash to reach mash out. I have a spare 19L stock pot i can use. Im doing 50L batches ATM, and my boil volume 61L.

So the question is, if my mash is sitting at 67C how many liters of boiling water will i need to add to reach 78C and end up with 61L in the pot after 9.5kg of grain are removed? And would it be harmful adding boiling water to the mash? Am i making any sense at all?

TYVM Damian


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Yes you are making sense. No it wouldn't hurt anything. More water than you can fit in your 19L pot

Basically if you want 61 after pulling the 9.5kg of grain, you are going to need about 68 total water. So you reserve some, leave it out of the main mash and heat it up in your pot to add later. Right?

If you go with the maximum - say 18L in your 19L pot, you leave behind a mash that has been done with 50L of water. Now to get a mash with 9.5kg of grain and 50L of water, from 67 to 78 is going to take an infusion of boiling water of... 29L. Your 18L is only going to get you to 74-75.. which happily is good enough!

So if you take 18L of your initial water and reserve it for your small pot and the stove - you should be able to push your mash up to 74... If you add a little heat with your burner as well. You are home.

BUT - I personally think that a large portion of the goodness you will derive from raising a BIAB to 78 at the end - is actually derived from the slower _ramp_ with constant stirring.

Still, as you say you will save on gas and you would save a chunk of time.. so its probably worth a try. Just keep an eye out for any issues that might appear and consider the change from ramp to infusion when you are trying to track them down.

TB


----------



## Damian44

Thanks again Thirsty. Ill do as you suggest, add the 18L of boiling water and than stick the burner on until i reach 78C (constantly stirring). :icon_cheers: 


TYVM Damian


----------



## Elbow

OK, 

So last night I finally took the plunge and did my first all grain! It went well, I'm pretty sure I didn't meet the right efficiency etc, but it was good fun anyway.



I only ended up with around 25g of POR hops as that's all I had. Apart from that, exactly as above. A couple of points about my first go:
I used a 3 ring burner and a 50 litre pot.
I started with 35 litres of water and put the pot and burner on top of the barbie


I soon realised the mistake of putting 35 litres of hot scalding liquid up nice and high! Decided terra firma was a better option 

This was recipe I used courtesy of Thirsty Boy:

Coopers Clone:


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
86.0 4.30 kg. Pale Malt - JWM Trad Ale Australia 1.037 6
7.0 0.35 kg. Wheat Malt - JWM Australia 1.039 4
5.0 0.25 kg. Cane Sugar Generic 1.046 0
2.0 0.10 kg. Special B Malt Belgian 1.030 300

Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
27.00 g. Pride of Ringwood Pellet 9.80% 34.5 60 min.

Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.17 gm Calcium Chloride Other 60 Min.(mash) 
2.17 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulphate) Other 60 Min.(mash) 
2.17 gm Magnesium Sulfate Other 60 Min.(mash) 
0.5 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Whitelabs) Other 10 Min.(boil) 
1.0 Unit(s) Whirlfloc Fining 10 Min.(boil) 

Yeast
-----

Re-Cultured Coopers Bottle yeast 2L starter

My last ever extract brew! 

I insulated with blankets and a big cardboard box 

After one hour at 64 c, I was heating up to 76 when I dropped my thermometer into the pot! So no idea whether I got anywhere near that in the end.

Once I got the boil going, I decided to construct an elaborate pulley system for my cobbled together hop sock, only to discover that if floats anyway.......

I had a few boilovers as I got to grips with my new 3 ring burner, but all in all pretty good boil


By the time I was done (11.30pm), I was more than a little pissed and tired, so decided not to transfer to a cube. Transferred this morning, got about 23 litres into the cube and had about 5 litres of trub/gunk left in the pot. Took a reading which gave me 1042, which is probably on the low side. Not too bothered though as I just wanted to give the whole BIAB process a whirl. Very happy!


----------



## Bribie G

Well done, :icon_cheers: how did you cool the wort and how did you get it out of the pot?


----------



## Elbow

I cooled it by just leaving it in the pot overnight outside and transferring it first thing this morning via a siphon. Probably less than ideal, but having a pot with no holes drilled in it I had no other option. I was not entirely sure my tube was able to handle boiling liquid either, so that another reason. Any tips for next time aside from drilling holes in my pot?


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## Pollux

I would be getting some yeast in that wort ASAP....

No-Chill cubing of wort relies upon the heat of the near boiling wort to pasteurise the cube...


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## Elbow

Pollux said:


> I would be getting some yeast in that wort ASAP....
> 
> No-Chill cubing of wort relies upon the heat of the near boiling wort to pasteurise the cube...



Really? I sanitised the cube thoroughly beforehand. I've just started to build up the Coopers Dregs tonight, so probably looking at another 2-3 days before pitching yeast. You think I should just get some dried Safale and pitch ASAP?


----------



## Bribie G

When doing a Coopers yeast brew you really need to get the culture going a couple of days in advance to coincide with when the wort is ready. The cube being sanitized should, but not guaranteed, get you out of trouble. At a pinch, just pitch a couple of sachets of Coopers kit yeast.


----------



## jakester

Well i finallly cracked my first (proper) BIAB. I ended up getting a 90L ally pot and a italian spiral burner from beerbelly. The gear seemed to have worked really well once we got the flame at a suitable level. The stand on the spiral burner is massive so it holds the 90l pot easily. Apart from a couple of little errors the brew went pretty smoothly. I have not taken any readings yet but will do soon when i transfer from no chill cube to fermentor. We made a SNPA clone with enough to fill the two 20L cubes at the end. So time will tell if the beer went well, but all in all the process couldnt have been any better, even doing a double batch was no problem.
Thanks to all who have helped with the leadup to my first brew and i'm sure i will need more help as the time goes on. Cheers!


----------



## Elbow

Just posted this on the recipe forum as I had a crack at Dr Smurto's Golden Ale today:

Hi All,

Just put this down as my second ever all-grain using the BIAB method. Once I'd finished the boil, I transferred to a no-chill cube, about 21 litres all up with around 2 litres left in the pot due to trub and hop gunk. I started with 32 litres.

I took a reading from the left over gunk and it gave me 1030, which is obviously not great.
2 questions really:
1. Can you get a different reading from the left over liquid in the pot than the actual wort?
2. If this reading is correct, can I bump it up on brew day with a can of extract? Otherwise, I reckon I might get an alcohol content, post fermentation of around 2.9%. Still tasty no doubt, but a bit on the light side!

Cheers and a Happy New Year!

p.s. - I know I have some issues with my brewing. I'm doing everything I think I can. The only part that might be suspect is my thermometer. It's on those cheap $10 jobs, so it's possible that it might not be accurate. Would this make a difference?


----------



## Bribie G

An accurate thermometer is essential when mashing, to get the initial strike temperature and also to check the mash temp. If you hit between 63 and 69 degrees you shouldn't have much trouble, but if the thermometer was way out and you only hit, say 58 degrees in the mash then you could be in trouble. What temperatures did your thermo record, and what method did you use to maintain temperature during the mash?


----------



## Nick JD

What temperature does your thermometer read when you put it in the top of the water of a saucepan brought to the boil?


----------



## RdeVjun

Elbow said:


> I took a reading from the left over gunk and it gave me 1030, which is obviously not great.
> 2 questions really:
> 1. Can you get a different reading from the left over liquid in the pot than the actual wort?


 Good question, not sure of the answer. Obviously if its is thick with trub and hops gunk then yes it could differ, however if it was filtered then I'd say it should be close. FWIW, I actually have a cooking oil- recycling cone- shaped filter that fits in a large sieve, I filter any remainder with it and I've been using it for starters. I usually just go by the post- boil wort SG though and fairly roughly (in my head) adjust the filtered remainder with water to around 1.040 however I don't recall measuring the filtrate beforehand.

Obviously, it would make sense to check your cube's SG when you open it.


Elbow said:


> 2. If this reading is correct, can I bump it up on brew day with a can of extract? Otherwise, I reckon I might get an alcohol content, post fermentation of around 2.9%. Still tasty no doubt, but a bit on the light side!


 Its your beer, you can do whatever you like! 

In all seriousness, yes, a top up with extract is probably what I'd do if it was supposed to be a higher abv but you've now got a decision to make with the choice of malt extract. I'd go light if you can.



Elbow said:


> p.s. - I know I have some issues with my brewing. I'm doing everything I think I can. The only part that might be suspect is my thermometer. It's on those cheap $10 jobs, so it's possible that it might not be accurate. Would this make a difference?


In a word, yes. It would make a difference. 

If it has the range, then test its calibration in some ice slurry and then in some boiling water.

:icon_cheers:


----------



## Elbow

BribieG said:


> An accurate thermometer is essential when mashing, to get the initial strike temperature and also to check the mash temp. If you hit between 63 and 69 degrees you shouldn't have much trouble, but if the thermometer was way out and you only hit, say 58 degrees in the mash then you could be in trouble. What temperatures did your thermo record, and what method did you use to maintain temperature during the mash?



I heated the water up to 68, added grains and maintained 66 for an hour by covering the pot with blankets and an old cardboard box. I'll check the thermometer again today with ice and boiling water.
When I took the reading, the left over wort was still hot. Does it need to be cool to get an accurate reading?


----------



## RdeVjun

Elbow said:


> I heated the water up to 68, added grains and maintained 66 for an hour by covering the pot with blankets and an old cardboard box. I'll check the thermometer again today with ice and boiling water.
> When I took the reading, the left over wort was still hot. Does it need to be cool to get an accurate reading?


Yes, it certainly does need cooling! Specific gravity is influenced by temperature and most hydrometers are calibrated to 20C. Some will come with an adjustment table, mine says +0.004 at 35C for instance. There's also a correction utility in the 'brew calcs' area in AHB (links underneath the sponsors' banner) although it says that 35C should be 5 (or 0.005 I presume), so I'm not sure if it is universal, I would've thought it should be so.

This would explain the lower SG you measured if it was hot. When you open the cube, check it again. You could have a respectable efficiency after all!

Nb. Don't put hot/ near boiling wort into the plastic cylinder which comes with most hydrometers, it will buckle and melt! Cool it in a mug placed in some cold water or get a lab- style pyrex 100ml measuring cylinder, that's what I use. I cool it to <40C, measure its temp with an infrared thermometer and then consult the lookup the table.


----------



## Elbow

RdeVjun said:


> Yes, it certainly does need cooling! Specific gravity is influenced by temperature and most hydrometers are calibrated to 20C. Some will come with an adjustment table, mine says +0.004 at 35C for instance. There's also a correction utility in the 'brew calcs' area in AHB (links underneath the sponsors' banner) although it says that 35C should be 5 (or 0.005 I presume), so I'm not sure if it is universal, I would've thought it should be so.
> 
> This would explain the lower SG you measured if it was hot. When you open the cube, check it again. You could have a respectable efficiency after all!
> 
> Nb. Don't put hot/ near boiling wort into the plastic cylinder which comes with most hydrometers, it will buckle and melt! Cool it in a mug placed in some cold water or get a lab- style pyrex 100ml measuring cylinder, that's what I use. I cool it to <40C, measure its temp with an infrared thermometer and then consult the lookup the table.


I opened up the cube today to get a second opinion. I drew off a quick sample and the re-sealed it, spraying with no rinse sanistiser and expelling the air again. This time my reading was 1042, so much better! I'll know to let the wort cool before I get a reading next time. Having said that, I think I still need a new thermometer anyway. Thanks for all the advice.


----------



## crundle

Elbow said:


> I opened up the cube today to get a second opinion. I drew off a quick sample and the re-sealed it, spraying with no rinse sanistiser and expelling the air again. This time my reading was 1042, so much better! I'll know to let the wort cool before I get a reading next time. Having said that, I think I still need a new thermometer anyway. Thanks for all the advice.



If you opened it up today to check it, I hope you intend to pitch it today, or you run the very real risk of getting an infection going in the cube as we speak! 

Regarding taking samples, I like to take a small sample of the hot wort and put it in a mug, and throw it in the freezer for a bit to get it to around 30 degrees, then make the necessary adjustments for temperature.

Please tell me you will pitch your yeast VERY soon!

Crundle


----------



## Elbow

crundle said:


> If you opened it up today to check it, I hope you intend to pitch it today, or you run the very real risk of getting an infection going in the cube as we speak!
> 
> Regarding taking samples, I like to take a small sample of the hot wort and put it in a mug, and throw it in the freezer for a bit to get it to around 30 degrees, then make the necessary adjustments for temperature.
> 
> Please tell me you will pitch your yeast VERY soon!
> 
> Crundle



Hi Crundle,

I was not planning to, but after reading that it might have gotten infected, I pitched last night. I had a packet of Wyeast 1275 Thames Valley which was smacked and ready to go into a starter. I skipped that and pitched it in about 9.30pm last night. The fermentor is now sitting at 18 degrees.

If it was infected, would there be any visible signs to indicate?


----------



## Bribie G

Seeing as you were quick to pitch I'm pretty sure you will be just fine. However it would have been a pity to have left it for a few weeks and risk opening the cube to see a germy white or green crust or whatever bug might have got in. :icon_cheers:


----------



## Elbow

BribieG said:


> Seeing as you were quick to pitch I'm pretty sure you will be just fine. However it would have been a pity to have left it for a few weeks and risk opening the cube to see a germy white or green crust or whatever bug might have got in. :icon_cheers:




I hope so!


----------



## crundle

Elbow said:


> I hope so!



You should be right, as it was only a couple of hours after you opened it that you pitched, but if you had left it for a few days, the story might be very different. Bacteria multiply much more rapidly than yeast, and will easily out populate yeast given half a chance.

cheers,

Crundle


----------



## under

Got a question.

Doing this tomorrow (23L Batch)-

2kg JW Trad Ale
2kg JW Export Pilsner
1kg Flaked Maize

My question is to do with absorbtion of the flaked maize. Do I include it in the grain bill total in the BIAB Equipment Setup Volumes.xls or not.

At the moment I have it included and it says I need 32.5L. Without the maize is 31.9L. Im unsure if it absorbs less than grain or more??


----------



## Bribie G

Nearly all the maize will be digested by the enzymes in the mash and turned into sugars, so in a sense it doesn't really absorb any liquid. However as it's contributing fermentables to the brew then some water should be added to bring the wort to the right gravity before boiling. I don't use software, I've done so many brews that after hoisting and squeezing the bag I 'know' if the level of wort is right. If it's a fairly light grain bill such as 4kg then it's usually spot on after hoisting. If its a biggie like 6kg then after hoisting, the wort level in the kettle is a lot lower so I often do a sparge in a bucket and end up with the 'right' level again. It's an art that you'll get the hang of pretty quickly.  

Tricky one this, but I would go for the 32.5 to be on the safe side.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

as Bribie says - go for the higher volume. Then if your volume is a little high after you pull out the bag and drain/squeeze or whatever you do ... you just boil it for a while till it comes down to the pre-boil volume you wanted in the first place. Then from _that_ point, take your pre-boi OG and start your timer, do your hop additions etc.

Couldn't be easier, shoot high, boil till you hit your target.

TB


----------



## under

Well pre boil gravity was 1040. FInal out of the kettle was 1052. It was supposed to be 1050. But I have the right amout of wort though.


----------



## mrcmatt

We've been experimenting with a modified BIAB parti-gyle; not a real parti-gyle, but inspired by. The beers we are making are a belgian tripel and a belgian pale ale, starting with the tripel as first mash and the pale with the seconds.

We put the grains (22 pounds) for the tripel in a bag and mashed with 7 gallons water, pulled the bag and drained a bit, put the bag with grains in a picnic cooler mash tun, batch sparged 6 gallons for the pale, then sparged a few more gallons to get the tripel up to volume.

We ended up with very good efficiency and got 2 full batched brewed with a minimum of fuss and mess. After adding sugar per recipe, our OGs were 1.097 and 1.062. 

The combination of BIAB and batch sparging made for a very simple brew day, good efficiency and 2 great beers to drink in a few weeks or months.

more info at http://brewlogblog.wordpress.com/2010/01/1...i-batch-madness/


----------



## argon

BIAB #2

Second batch wasn't all too successful. Did a double batch (40L) of Ross's Summer Ale. Only ended up with 37L at the correct OG. Was just too hard getting all that grain out. I have a "Replica" 50L Keg I converted, and getting the grain out is a little awkward, using this much grain, with the lid cutout being smaller diameter than the internals of the kettle. Squeezed the bag, but not as much as I should have. Didn't do any dunk sparging, etc. to up the efficiency points. 

I had some people around for BBQ, cause they were interested in the process. One of the guys, fellow brewer (Bristow), was helpful. But mostly I got distracted doing other stuff, being the host and what not. So it felt all like a bit of a rush. 
Made the note to self, "brewers or helping hands only on the next session". I did however have my bag properly sewn. The thing is bullet proof hoist tags, French seams, elasticised draw sting loop. That thing's not popping anytime soon. A proper bag cam in very handy when stirring hoisting etc. No more BIAS (brew in a sheet) for me. Anyway ended up with 3 separate batches of 12.33L with 3 separate yeasts. Let's hope they all turns out well. Due for bottling this week.
BIAB #3

Third batch was a success!!! Last Saturday night. (Had to do it straight way after seeing Ross's new brew rig and sharing a couple of beers drooling over the monster. Thanks again Ross, Dave, Chappo nice to meet you guys and share a beer or 2. That chocolate stout was special. :icon_drool2: ) 

Setup the rig during the day bit by bit. Had the strike water sitting in the kettle ready to go before dinner. 9pm and SWMBO and the little one are in bed. Got 35L to strike temp in about 15mins with the new Rambo. Doughed in and hit mash temp 66C spot on. Gave it a good stir for about 5mins. Went back inside to the AC. Stirred at 15min intervals for the next 60min. Raised temp to 78C and did a mashout for 10min. Hoisted bag, with a rope over a roof purlin. Hung it over the 19L stockpot to drain. Turned the Rambo on again. Twirled and squeezed the bejesus out of the bag (squeezed out about 6L worth). Dumped the grain. Added the liquor to the kettle and 10 mins later a nice rolling boil had started. 5 mins later hot break dissipated and started the hop schedule on a nice rolling boil.

Doing version 2 of my LFPA linky. Hit targets and volumes absolutely spot-on. (used Beersmith for the first time very, very handy). 24L of OG 1056 into the cube. Happy days. :icon_cheers: 

Moral of the story plan it all out, don't get distracted, take your time and relax. Now onto the next one, a 34L batch of DSGA.


----------



## Elbow

Did my third BIAB last night:

Pretty happy with it, I did Fenton and Troy's Cream Ale and all went (mostly!) to plan.

I used:

2 kg JW Trad Ale
2kg JW Pils
1kg of Dried "1 minute" Polenta
42g Northern Brewer Hops 60 min
10g Hallertau (ran out of Northern) 10 mins

The mash in was good, took a lot of stirring to get all the polenta dough balls out, but they disappeared pretty quickly. Mashed in at 66 for one hour, then raised to 78 and held for 10 mins.

Boiled for 75 minutes, whirlpooled and siphoned to cube for no chill. Small accident when the tap on the cube come loose, spilling boiling wort on the floor....got the tap back on within seconds and expelled all the air. I figure I should be ok?

My water in was 32 litres, ended with around 23 litres into the cube and left around 3 litres of trub and hop gunk in the kettle. Pre boil reading was 1040 and post was 1052, so I'm happy with that. How do you work out efficiency?

Swiss voil is as strong as hell!


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Elbow said:


> Boiled for 75 minutes, whirlpooled and siphoned to cube for no chill. Small accident when the tap on the cube come loose, spilling boiling wort on the floor....got the tap back on within seconds and expelled all the air. I figure I should be ok?
> 
> My water in was 32 litres, ended with around 23 litres into the cube and left around 3 litres of trub and hop gunk in the kettle. Pre boil reading was 1040 and post was 1052, so I'm happy with that. How do you work out efficiency?
> 
> Swiss voil is as strong as hell!



Thats one of the reason "most" people who no-chill dont put a tap into their cube. Things go all a bit soggy at 100C and the taps tend to get knocked out really easily. Plus sanitation, people tend to be extra extra careful with no-chill and that tap is a prime place for bugs to hide.

If it were me, I'd retire the cube with the tap to a Cold Conditioning cube or to hold sanitiser or something, and go with cube that hasn't had the tap hole drilled out for no-chill.

Efficiency is usually measured as the gravity of the wort (for a given volume) expressed as a percentage of the maximum theoretical gravity you could have gotten in a perfect system.

There are calculations you can do - but the easiest way is to get yourself one of the brewing software programs. I use pro-mash and the free trial is fully functional, just with recipe saving disabled. It will still do all your calculations for you.

Plugging your grains and volumes into pro-mash...

you had 23 into your cube and 3 left in the kettle - that's a post boil volume of 26L
Your gravity was 1.052
2kg JW pale, 2kg JW pils, 1 kg corn

Promash says that to get 26L of 1.052 wort from those grains you would have had to get a mash efficiency of 86% -- which is great. So great in fact I suspect its a little high to be realistic.

But, lets assume a bit of measurement error - say 1L in the kettle and 1L in the cube. Thats 24L @ 1.052 which is still an efficiency of 79-80%.

So, either you measured well and got phenomenal efficiency, or you got a little error and just got really good efficiency instead. Nicely done.

A few more brews and you will start to settle into predictable patterns and you can think about aiming for particular numbers and designing your brews to get them. If thats how you want to brew anyway.

I have been talking about "Mash Efficiency" which is probably the most common way people think about efficiency. If you read a recipe in a brewing magazine, or you read a book like Brewing Classic Styles - then when they refer to efficiency, this is what they most probably mean.

Another way to look at it is total brewhouse efficiency - which includes your losses from the kettle to trub and things like that. It is a lower figure and might not look so good, but more accurately relates the amount of grain to the amount of beer. You can go a step further and include losses in your fermenter etc. So you relate the amount of grain directly to the amount of packaged product and a lot of people think that this is the only truly "useful" way to look at efficiency.

I use mash efficiency. Thats also the figure you are talking about when you use the efficiency button in the recipe design part of pro-mash... which is primarily why its the figure I choose to use.

TB


----------



## joshuahardie

*Guys, I have a BIAB issue that related to efficiency.*

I have been BIAB-ing for a few years and my old stovetop system was with 2x20l pots.
I would basically mash in with my 4kg or so of grain in one pot full with hot water.
I would mash for about 60 mins then drain from the first bag getting all the wort out that I can.
I would then do a 'sparge' by then putting my bag in the second pot and adding much hotter water, attempting to get all of the sugar out of the grain as possible.
I then boil both pots of wort on the stove as normal, cool, add to the fermenter, and I would normally come away with a 70% efficiency. Not great, but on such a crude system I was satisfied.

Recently I have upgraded to a 40l pot, and as such I don't need to do any of the pot swapping drama anymore.
I still use the same bag that I used for the 20l pot that is undersized for the pot but not by too much.

My problem is now my efficiency is down in the 48-52% range, which is just abysmal.

Could my undersized bag be causing the efficiency issues, or is it likely a case of that I am not 'sparging' any more so that could be the cause. I don't really feel that I have changed my system that much to cause a huge issue like this.

Any ideas to this would be greatly appreciated.

Josh


----------



## bcp

I just completed my first all-grain - BIAB in an urn - and i'm also interested in how to improve efficiency. My temperature was good for the mash. So I was thinking along these lines:
1. Crush - we can crush it more finely for the bag. That would increase it.
2. I didn't stir the grain towards the end of the mash. I agitated the bag a bit, but i think stirring the grain could help.
3. I did raise the temp before removing the bag, but wonder if i could have held it longer at the higher temperature before removing the bag?
4. Squeezing the bag - there must be a better system. I was using the fermenter because i didn't have a plastic bucket, and it was really difficult to squeeze the hot bag. Any better system?
5. I did 'bucket sparge' about two litres, but not sure my technique was really great.

So interested to hear from those who get good efficiency.


----------



## PistolPatch

Have been enjoying reading the above posts. Great to see so many new guys having a crack and doing well.

In regards to the last 2 posts, Josh, definitely get yourself a bigger bag. Having a small bag is a known cause of low efficiency with BIAB so once you have a new bag you should be right.

bcp, all those things you mention will make a bit of a difference. A pair of industrial gloves will really help with the squeezing. It will also take a few brews before you get any real idea of your efficiency. One reading on one brew can be quite inaccurate for various reasons. You don't need to go overboard in squeezing etc to get good efficiency. When you raise your mash at the end to 78 degrees, lower the bag and give it a bit of a stir. After a few minutes, gradually raise it. Once above the wort level, give it a bit if a twist and squeeze, and then suspend it over a food-grade bucket. By the time your wort starts to boil, you'll probably have another litre or so in the bucket that you can throw in the boil.

Cheers and thanks for all the good reads above,
Pat


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## Dunno

Hi All

I have been hampered as regards to my AHB access lately (about 12 months due to nagging - then pregnant wife - to having a 2 month old) so havent posted much. I have increased my avg efficiency from 70% to around 90% with BIAB. The first figure was taken over about 10 brews. The 2nd over about 8 now. The main change in my process is a sparging process. I bought a large collander that I sit over my brew pot. I mash with a lower amount of water similar to traditional 3 vessel brewers but using my bag in my brew pot. After mashout of 78d I twist and drain the bag, then dump it in my oversize collander, open the bag up and slowly pour hot water over the grain. I can see the colour slowly fade from the water as it comes out of the grain and have played with differing amounts of sparge water vs mash water. Best so far is 91% with this method but average is around 89%. Still dont need any extra equipment but I do use a 15lt pot that I bought with the intention to do mini mashes with before I thought bugger it and went full volume double batch BIAB. Beers are tasting fantastic too.
Will post some more precise figs and maybe some pics when I get the chance.
Cheers Dunno


----------



## nikgr

Hi folks did you check the new Basic's brewing video http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing...-10cornpils.mp4 they are brewing a "*Homegrown Organic Corn Pilsner" *using BIAB method.


----------



## matthendry

nikgr said:


> Hi folks did you check the new Basic's brewing video http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing...-10cornpils.mp4 they are brewing a "*Homegrown Organic Corn Pilsner" *using BIAB method.



Im a Aussie that lives in the US and it seems the American homebrewers are reluctant to use new techniques like BIAB and No Chill and the All grain brewers here seem more interested in replicating a small brewery than making it simpler ,so its great that James and Steve are showing how easy it is .

The use of adjunts like Corn and rice is also frowned upon in homebrewing and craft brewing because they are used by Budwiser and Coors .


----------



## Thirsty Boy

excellent, I didn't know they made a video. Glad they did.


----------



## nick_wilko

Hi all,
I've been doing AG (2vessel system) for a few years now, and on the past batch decided to give the old BIAB a go.

I'm converted.... Really enjoyed the process, It sped up the brew day, meant less cleaning and based on early samples has turned out a top beer.

I did have a couple of quick questions/thoughts:

(1) water calcs - for anyone out there who uses BeerAlchemy, can you adjust the grain absorption rates and loss to break material so that it reflects BIAB. I've had a look, and I suspect not, but thought I'd ask the crowd

(2) one thing I did notice is that I was losing temp a lot quicker in the mash compared to using an esky. Has anyone tried using a new belt wrapped around the pot during the mash to try and maintain temp maybe hooked up to a tempmate? This might be a stupid question on a number of fronts - eg brew belt doesn't have the guts to heat at 60-70 deg, or the plastic on the brew belt might not be rated to handle those temps etc

I'd be interested to hear everyones thoughts on these.

Cheers
Wilko


----------



## PistolPatch

nikgr: Thanks a heap for the video link above. I have been meaning to find time to watch it but BIABrewer.info and some other things have taken up a lot more time than I thought. I am about to do watch the vid after this post - looking forward to it!

wilko: Great to hear you enjoyed it. Please PM me re the BeerAlchemy part of your post. I use the program so might be able to help out if you can provide a bit more detail to your question.

As for losing heat, my thoughts on this are that BIAB provides you with a better alternative in controlling mash temp than an esky does. All you have to do is check the temp a few times during the mash and apply heat if necessary whilst agitating the mash. For me, this is easier and less time-consuming than wrapping the kettle in any sort of insulation. I think this way has to also give you better efficiency though that should not be a big consideration.

In a very cold climate, then I think insulation might need to become a consideration but if BIABing in ambient temps above 15-20 degrees celsius then I think the occassional turning on of your burner/heat source and giving the mash a stir can do no harm.

If the time that you had to actually apply heat and stir exceeded 20 minutes in a 90 minute mash to ensure the temp didn't drop by more than two degrees during that mash, then I would consider alternatives. At 20 degrees ambient though, I would not have to stir for more than 10 minutes to keep within 2 degrees.

And remember, BIAB has a tremendous advantage over an esky. Your mash temperature is more even, can more easily be kept constant and will not have the wild "pocket" variations of an esky. You'll still get these advantages with BIAB if you do nothing during the mash at ambient temps of above 20 or so but isn't it worth checking the mash 2 or 3 times to get the same advantages as high tech recirculating 3 vessel systems?

Going to watch that video now. Hope it's good!
Pat


----------



## cliffyj

Hi,
Just brewed another batch of this.
Mash temp 65c-66c, checked temp twice and stirred, temp held throughout mash, so didnt add flame.
I did a mash out, plus i gave the grain a good squeeze when lifting bag out.
5 galls into fermenter, gravity 1050.
I must admit,if i hadn't discovered biab, i would not have done an all grain brew,so thumbs up to everybody on here who have tried and tested and sorted the problems.
I didn't get round to making a bag from the voile,but i think it would make things easier if i did.
Thanks ,Clifford


----------



## PistolPatch

clifford said:


> Hi,
> Just brewed another batch of this.
> Mash temp 65c-66c, checked temp twice and stirred, temp held throughout mash, so didnt add flame.
> I did a mash out, plus i gave the grain a good squeeze when lifting bag out.
> 5 galls into fermenter, gravity 1050.
> I must admit,if i hadn't discovered biab, i would not have done an all grain brew,so thumbs up to everybody on here who have tried and tested and sorted the problems.
> I didn't get round to making a bag from the voile,but i think it would make things easier if i did.
> Thanks ,Clifford



Howdy Clifford!

I know that we have been swapping emails but I hate letting posts in this thread lie latent or unacknowledged for so long.

I think that a heap of brewers seem to somehow be able to find their way with BIAB now. My original intention was just to have two threads but editing the original posts of this thread is now impossible and our our original BIABrewer Register thread is now split in two! This is a good sign and now that BIAB has become established, I should probably ask this thread now be closed but still remain air-locked. I would need to do a few edits to the original post first though.

I also have good reason for not responding . After spending the last two years or so trying to create an information site for BIABrewer.info and, at every turn finding this harder and harder, just last week everything became simple. I went around to NME's last weekend and all is brilliant now. It is so easy!

So, at the moment I am transferring a lot of stuff to the dummy site which is a tad laborious. Once that is done, a few of us will beta test (critique) it* and then all will actually be a lot better than I originally hoped!

Finally, finally, finally it has all come together! (Can't even begin to tell you what a process this has been!)

Phew!
Pat

* If you'd like to help do this BIAB beta testing then please send an email to [email protected] Please include your AHB name so as I know who you are. For the beta testing I now mainly need brewers that are either just contemplating BIAB/All-Grain or have just done a few brews. This is the stage in our brewing life that is most bewildering and where quality information is so important.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

PistolPatch said:


> After spending the last two years or so trying to create an information site for BIABrewer.info and, at every turn finding this harder and harder, just last week everything became simple. I went around to NME's last weekend and all is brilliant now. It is so easy!



Excellent news Pat - I know that this has been giving you a real PITA - glad you managed to finally find someone to help make it easier for you. Look forward to seeing the new and improved site... I will refrain from offering to help test/critique it, I think I don't quite fit the bill.

TB


----------



## PistolPatch

I'll be sending you the link next weekend Thirsty to play with - you'll see bits and pieces of your gold in there 

Have wanted to make it US-friendly so have been writing in imperial measurements everywhere - a tad laborious . When will they go metric!

Dunno why I wrote in my last post about asking for this thread to be closed??? Just reading back over the last few pages and it still gets some good questions and answers. Also still gets read a bit - had several offers from new or budding all-grainers today - thanks guys!

Cheers mate,
Pat


----------



## katzke

PistolPatch said:


> When will they go metric!
> Pat



When you stop drinking pints at the pub and the polar ice cap melts.

You should do all amounts in the inferior metric system and the superior way to measure things like we do in the USA. That is what BYO has been doing in their magazine for most if not all of the recipes.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

katzke said:


> When you stop drinking pints at the pub and the polar ice cap melts.
> 
> You should do all amounts in the inferior metric system and the superior way to measure things like we do in the USA. That is what BYO has been doing in their magazine for most if not all of the recipes.



hah - we mostly drink pots (285ml) and Schooners (425ml) and I think if you check the whole climate change thingy that seems so popular nowadays.. the polar ice caps are melting right now (I notice that in a typically insular Americocentric fashion.. you spoke of polar ice _*cap*_ - in the singular - as though the one _near you_ was the only one... never mind that the _other_ one is craploads bigger and has a continent underneath it)

so - will you be drinking pots or schooners sir?

  

TB


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

The USA's official system of measurement is metric. It's just all the Americans that insist on continuing to use their old, almost-but-not-quite-imperial system.

Muffin, biscuit, crumpet or cake?


----------



## katzke

Thirsty Boy said:


> hah - we mostly drink pots (285ml) and Schooners (425ml)
> 
> so - will you be drinking pots or schooners sir?
> 
> 
> 
> TB



Well I guess we drink Schooners as a normal pub pint glass does not hold 16 ounces.

The rest is not beer related so no more comment other then if the CO2 regulators get there way hold on to your yeast cultures as you will need them.


----------



## Macca17

Well opened up the first bottle of my first BIAB, an accidental Eisbock  Not sure what went wrong, besides the iceblock B) Doesn't taste much like a Bock, or any I've tasted anyway, but does look and taste like a very nice stout


----------



## Bribie G

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> The USA's official system of measurement is metric. It's just all the Americans that insist on continuing to use their old, almost-but-not-quite-imperial system.
> 
> Muffin, biscuit, crumpet or cake?



I'll go a pint of Yorkshire Bitter, thanks, while I settle down in front of my new 42 inch HD television - we were going for a 37 inch originally but decided to go the extra mile. It only cost a few quid more anyway so in for a penny, in for a pound I say :icon_cheers:


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

BribieG said:


> I'll go a pint of Yorkshire Bitter, thanks, while I settle down in front of my new 42 inch HD television - we were going for a 37 inch originally but decided to go the extra mile. It only cost a few quid more anyway so in for a penny, in for a pound I say :icon_cheers:



I've got a hogshead of cider about to come ready and ...


Oh, what's the point...


----------



## Bribie G

I admire you cider makers, you guys really do the hard yards - anyway all this is way off topic but we need something to talk about while Pat is fine tuning his new BIAB site, he's inching towards launching it soon.


----------



## katzke

So you want something to talk about that is BIAB related?

How about odd things like mash type hop additions. Mash hopping and first wort hopping.

Or doing odd things with grains like adding dark grains just before a traditional sparge. Working towards a black IPA and that is one way to get the color with out the intense flavor.

That brings a different thought. If they put the dark grains in after the mash and at the beginning of the sparge, does that say we are leaving some flavor out? Or does the flavor come from the mash process more then the sparge process?

How would you do a conversion of such things to a normal (put bag in, add grain, mash, heat to mashout, and pull bag) BIAB.

OK lots of combined subjects but you wanted to talk BIAB.


----------



## Bribie G

Yes Katzke always room for experimenting. Here's what I'm doing for a big dark chocolate hazelnut beer, during the coming week:

Do a BIAB steep at mash temperature with about 10L of liquor and a heap of dark grains (choc, crystal, caraaroma, caramalt, cararedetc) - up to 2 k of spec grains. drain then sparge in a bucket and boil it like buggery for around an hour until reduced. Add 700g moist brown sugar and a bar of dark chocolate to the end of the boil and pour the resulting 'syrup' into the sanitised no chill cube.

Clean everything up then do a standard BIAB brew with the base malt (Maris Otter) and boil with the hop addition ... probably just one addition of Northern Brewer.

Give that a 2 hour boil and pour wort into no chill cube to blend in with the syrup. I know Guinness do a two part process using a dark 'syrup' that is added to the end of the boil, so this could be a good way of getting a bigger beer out of BIAB in a 40L urn.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

do Guinness do that syrup thing at St James Gate?? I thought it was just for BUL versions. The BUL brewery brews a "base" beer and adds all teh Guinness flavour in the form of a syrup that they actually import from Ireland. Kind of like beer cordial.

One of the reasons I always assumed that Guinness just isn't the "same" unless you drink it in Ireland.

Katzke - FWH is nice and easy with BIAB. You just toss your hops in as soon as you pull the bag - then they are in there during the whole heat up time to boiling point. Spillsmostofit does this every time.

You can add grains just before the sparge in BIAB... just stir them in moments before you pull the bag. Personally I think that the whole adding dark grains late thing is pointless from a flavour perspective - the dark colour and the roastiness are both going to be there no matter how short a time they are in the mash/sparge or whatever. It might however change the beer because it would alter the pH of the mash vs what it would be if the grains were in there from the start.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

Thirsty Boy said:


> ...
> 
> FWH is nice and easy with BIAB. You just toss your hops in as soon as you pull the bag - then they are in there during the whole heat up time to boiling point. Spillsmostofit does this every time.
> 
> ...



Almost every time. Does several things:

1) gets maybe a little more out of my bittering addition;
2) gives me a great swathe of time between first and second kettle addition, during which I clean, browse pern or read AHB;
3) lends a slightly different flavour which I enjoy; and
4) provides Thirsty Boy another opportunity to tell me I'm living in the 15th century and should brew like a real man.

It's all good.


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## Bribie G

I'm halfway through a mash of some sort of UK Quaffing bitter and have 60g of Admiral Pellets waiting, I'll try the FWH in a wee while.


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## PistolPatch

BribieG said:


> we need something to talk about while Pat is fine tuning his new BIAB site



LOL! Have just sent you and others an email asking them to have a look at the site. Let me know if anyone hasn't received the email who should have.

As for FWH, I did this about 12 months ago on NRB's All Amarillo APA. Worked quite well - very easy. I really must do a side by side on it though. 

Spot ya ron,
Pat


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## black_labb

what do you guys think of using a blender to crush grains for biab? i tried it with some grains crushed at the hbs to see if it caused any issues which it didnt seem to, but i was only mashing 2.9kg as opposed to ~5kg as i was doing a partial (had an unneeded kit can that i used as hopped lme). didnt seem to have any issues just would like to check what others thought about it before i get a 25kg bag and realise i cant crush it properly. 

i understand it may take a bit extra time, but by holding the blender sideways and shaking it seems to cycle the unblended grains into the blades pretty well.


----------



## felten

> what do you guys think of using a blender to crush grains for biab? i tried it with some grains crushed at the hbs to see if it caused any issues which it didnt seem to, but i was only mashing 2.9kg as opposed to ~5kg as i was doing a partial (had an unneeded kit can that i used as hopped lme). didnt seem to have any issues just would like to check what others thought about it before i get a 25kg bag and realise i cant crush it properly.
> 
> i understand it may take a bit extra time, but by holding the blender sideways and shaking it seems to cycle the unblended grains into the blades pretty well.



I was wondering about this as well, I ordered some grain a while ago and thought I had asked for it to be cracked, but apparently I didn't because it came uncracked. The husk integrity and amount of flour present isn't a big a deal with BIAB, as with a traditional system right? as long as the enzymes can access all/most of the starch.


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## RdeVjun

Yep, many brewers have used blenders and coffee grinders for smashing grain, getting them out of a bind. The latter I'd be cautious about as I don't think a cheap domestic grinder's motor will last with the sort of use it may get, a blender would have a far better chance, so you should be fine. However, if you happen to wreck SWMBO's blender, you may find the <$140 for a simple grain roller mill was pretty cheap after all...  

Yep, with BIAB, the grain crush isn't important, the process is self- lautering and doesn't need that 'free draining' structure created from a bed of coarse particles and largely- intact husks. :icon_cheers:


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## Thirsty Boy

to a point - you make it all flour and it will still take a hell of a long time for your bag to drain + you will lose more wort to grain absorption. You can crush really fine with BIAB... but thats really fine by brewing grist standards, you could go to far in a blender if you were determined enough.

That said - I agree with the guys above, you will be fine to crush in a blender with BIAB - just don't get all OcD on it's ass and crush it to talcum powder.


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## RdeVjun

Quite right TB, I should've mentioned that there's limits! Whiz it in the blender or coffee grinder just enough to minimise the amount of whole grain is what I'd be aiming for, there's no need to turn it all into dust and there's probably a point of diminishing returns.

As an aside, I remember doing a partial back in the bad old days with a couple of kilos of base malt that was milled with a rolling pin on the kitchen table. Not a fun job but once I got the hang of it, pretty easy and I had a reasonably efficient process happening. Wholesome aerobic exercise it was, but rather tedious. IIRC, the beer was quite OK, I was just glad I didn't have to mill 4 or 5 kilos...


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## black_labb

thanks everyone. it should work well as long as i ensure the grains circulate in the blender so i dont get 1/4 into flour and the rest untouched.


----------



## Bribie G

Last year as an experiment Rosscoe Junior at CraftBrewer kindly double milled a batch of base malt for my BIAB brews and honestly I didn't notice any diff in efficiency. I'm tending to the advice to do a couple of mid mash stirs instead.


----------



## Nick JD

I turn it to molecules with my *Point Grinder 1.0*

Poor little thing has had over 75kg of grain through it. Still going, but has a few chips out of the lid - probably from bloody stones/grit/crap in the grain).

It takes me about 3 minutes to mill a kg, and I wipe the dust from under it every 1kg (think the dust getting into the cooling vents not so good).

I've stopped sparging these days because for the extra tiny efficiency it's not worth the hassle when I'm already getting > 75%. 

If I did 50L batches I'd get both a grain mill ... and some good health insurance for my liver.


----------



## MarkBastard

I got about 70% efficiency last time so I too won't bother looking into sparging or mash outs.

I don't really have anything to tie the bag to for draining and don't want to use a pulley system so I've been just dumping the bag into my 19L Big W pot for draining. I'm thinking of sitting a cake rack in the pot and then sitting the bag on the cake rack so that the wort just drains out of the bag and I can empty the extra wort back into the urn. Anyone done this?


----------



## argon

Mark^Bastard said:


> I got about 70% efficiency last time so I too won't bother looking into sparging or mash outs.
> 
> I don't really have anything to tie the bag to for draining and don't want to use a pulley system so I've been just dumping the bag into my 19L Big W pot for draining. I'm thinking of sitting a cake rack in the pot and then sitting the bag on the cake rack so that the wort just drains out of the bag and I can empty the extra wort back into the urn. Anyone done this?




MB not a bad idea... I think I read a post not long ago about someone using a colender over a bucket to let it drain. I'm getting pretty sick of squeezing the bag out when I pull it out of the kettle. Probably worst part of Biab for me. So I reckon I'll do the cake rack/ collender method over the 19L pot next brew day. See how my efficiencies work out. I do double batches and get 70% at the moment. So next single I do I'll give this a shot and see how the numbers stack up.


----------



## MarkBastard

Yeah the squeezing thing is annoying for sure. At the moment I lift the bag, which can be hard if the urn is sitting on a bench, and then I drain it mostly and then just chuck it in the pot and then put the urn up to 110 degrees and put the lid on.

Then I go to squeezing mode. I have some thick black 'general purpose' rubber gloves that I use to squeeze. I do a good squeeze every 5-10 minutes or so while the mash is coming to the boil. If I could just let it sit there and drain it'd be so much easier without a doubt!


----------



## Thirsty Boy

hang it off a door handle - you toss it in teh pot you currently put it in, sit it next to a door - raise it so its off the bottom of the pot and tie it off on teh door handle. Then it drains perfectly well.

If you look in the BIAB guide that is in teh #1 post of this thread (say thank you nicely to PP) you will in fact see a picture of exactly what I am talking about. You have a door handle somewhere in your house surely??

Or substitute whatever protrusion from a vertical surface you can find that is a few feet off the floor.


----------



## black_labb

i just put it into a colander over a pot or something big enough to catch the drips. just trying to squeeze it into the colander gets most of the liquid out. i got a reasonably sized colander to cover the element in the urn that i use (once i've fished it out of the wort)


----------



## MarkBastard

Yeah I probably have a door handle somewhere but not anywhere near where I brew. I could probably hang it off the vice on my work bench though.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Mark^Bastard said:


> Yeah I probably have a door handle somewhere but not anywhere near where I brew. I could probably hang it off the vice on my work bench though.



There you go - I am always of the opinion that one less bit of stuff you need for BIAB is an improvement. So no colander is better than needing one by definition.

I don't insist that this is the universal truth - but I find that the bag drains more quickly and more completely if it is hanging, than if it is sitting in a colander type arrangement. Also (IMO) easier to give it a quick squeeze when its hanging then sitting. I don't squeeze the hell out of it though, spin the bag to tighten it up and give it a bit of a squeeze, takes all of 20 seconds.


----------



## Bribie G

I'm moving in 3 weeks and don't think I have a roof hatch available in the new brewery (_double_ garage, yay) to put a bar across to hang the pulley from, so I'm thinking of just using a stud finder and putting a fairly substantial eye-bolt in the ceiling, and a cleat in the wall for the hoisting cord. If and when we move out, spakfill and a lick of paint over the top and you wouldn't know.


----------



## Paul H

BribieG said:


> I'm moving in 3 weeks and don't think I have a roof hatch available in the new brewery (_double_ garage, yay) to put a bar across to hang the pulley from, so I'm thinking of just using a stud finder and putting a fairly substantial eye-bolt in the ceiling, and a cleat in the wall for the hoisting cord. If and when we move out, spakfill and a lick of paint over the top and you wouldn't know.



Or you could just brew like the rest off us  


:icon_cheers: 

Paul


----------



## Bribie G

You mean like the _diminishing_ majority ?


----------



## MarkBastard

Thirsty Boy said:


> There you go - I am always of the opinion that one less bit of stuff you need for BIAB is an improvement. So no colander is better than needing one by definition.
> 
> I don't insist that this is the universal truth - but I find that the bag drains more quickly and more completely if it is hanging, than if it is sitting in a colander type arrangement. Also (IMO) easier to give it a quick squeeze when its hanging then sitting. I don't squeeze the hell out of it though, spin the bag to tighten it up and give it a bit of a squeeze, takes all of 20 seconds.



I find that you have to wait as well as squeeze, and possibly squeeze multiple times.

There's the wort that's trapped in the bag in the middle of the grain that tries to come out and is helped by the initial draining and squeezing. But then after 5 minutes there's more of that too I guess from the actual grain shedding liquid.

Even if I sit my bag, fully drained, in my buckets and leave it for 10 minutes, I can come back, lift the bag, and there's probably another 500ml sitting in the bottom.

So yeah I agree draining would be ideal as I don't think it's something that can be rushed.


----------



## felten

I tried the blender out and didn't like it, too many whole grains left after each batch. So I switched to a small coffee grinder and that seemed to do the job better, although they both produced a lot of flour and half grain size particles


----------



## PistolPatch

PistolPatch said:


> After spending the last two years or so trying to create an information site for BIABrewer.info and, at every turn finding this harder and harder, just last week everything became simple. I went around to NME's last weekend and all is brilliant now. It is so easy!



LOL! That only took two months of hardly any sleep  

BIABrewer.info is now a reality. It is not in the format I originally imagined (better format now) and has taken far more effort (about a thousand times more) than I imagined.

There is a lot of great/new stuff there but not as much as I had hoped for. We will get there though. I am quite disappointed in "The Commentary" but it is still, I am ashamed to say, a huge improvement on previous versions.

I've been working on the above, just today, since 6 am so can I do a little PP post?...

*Squeezing the Bag etc*

I only have one question here. What is the point of squeezing/draining the bag so much?

It will not promote further enzyme activity. All it will do is give you a tad more sweet liquor (wort.) So. why is there so much discussion on this? The reason is because new brewers get hung up on other brewer's efficiency without even knowing what the other brewer is even referring to. (Often the original brewer doesn't even know what they are quoting!)

BIAB gives better efficiency on even a gentle squeeze than batch-sparging but less than fly-sparging.

BIAB brewers and new all-grain brewers generally should not be so focussed on, "draining the grain." so much. It is usually only an economy measure relevant more to big breweries. And, it is actually impossible to determine your efficiency after one brew. This is an ugly but true fact of home brewing.

Home brewers often talk about efficiency which is a factor in which they, in reality, have little control over.

So, the real point should be when is the most practical time to stop squeezing and draining your bag?

Batch-spargers and fly-spargers know that at some point you have to begin the boil. A sensible traditional brewer knows that they can let their mash tun drain into the kettle all the way through the boil. This is stupid though - all it does is increase an efficiency figure which we can replicate in BIAB quite easily.

At some point a Traditional Brewer will cut the supply from their MLT. A _*sensible*_ time to do this is at Boil Start.

I think a bag should never be squeezed more than three times simply because it is a waste of effort. Wort drainage from the bag should also be done at Boil Start or prior - no later.

That is my late night thought for today 
Pat


----------



## Hashie

PistolPatch said:


> LOL! That only took two months of hardly any sleep
> 
> BIABrewer.info is now a reality. It is not in the format I originally imagined (better format now) and has taken far more effort (about a thousand times more) than I imagined.
> 
> There is a lot of great/new stuff there but not as much as I had hoped for. We will get there though. I am quite disappointed in "The Commentary" but it is still, I am ashamed to say, a huge improvement on previous versions.
> 
> I've been working on the above, just today, since 6 am so can I do a little PP post?...




That's a top looking website pistolpatch, top work.


----------



## PistolPatch

A heap of guys have worked on it behind the scenes for ages. God bless those brewers  .

I'm off to the Red Bull Air Race. Cool!


----------



## Bribie G

Watch you don't get taken out by a stray Brazilian Pilot :blink: 
The new BIAB site is looking great and should start picking up members shortly.

On topic, one thing I should point out is that with a larger grain bill mashed in a restricted space (eg 6kg mashed in a 40L urn) because the spent grain removes a fair whack of the initial strike liquor then this can affect the pre boil volume. A three vessel brewer can just keep sparging till they get their volume but in the case of bigger bills I find I need to do a top up, especiallya 90 min boil. So I put that in at the beginning with a sparge in a bag if necessary, get a wee bit more efficiency.


----------



## jimmysuperlative

Hashie said:


> That's a top looking website pistolpatch, top work.




Second that! :icon_drool2: :beerbang:


----------



## felten

I finally got around to doing my first AG BIAB earlier today and I'm bloody knackered. It was the good doctors landlord recipe. Only lost 1 degree over the hour, volumes were pretty much spot on with what the setup spreadsheet said they would be. Preboil 32.1L @ 1.042, postboil 25.8L @ 1.047. I'm sure i screwed up the hydrometer readings somehow, but I'll take another one pre-fermentation. Ended up with 21L into the cube.

When I first tried to hoist the bag, I thought to myself 'oh crap, I have one of those bags that is water tight'; but after a bit of heaving I managed to get it above the water line, and proceeded to squeeze the life out of it. All in all it was a fun, if exhausting day.


----------



## Bribie G

Earlier today? What did you start at Midnight??  

 

No wonder you are knackered. Are you using a Gryphon bag? They seem to be more 'watertight' than the Swiss Voile you get from Spotlight but I like them because they seem to give a clearer wort, being finer, but definitely need a skyhook - and I reckon they are probably longer lasting than a home job.
Well done, it will soon seem like second nature. Often when I brew now, and reaching the end and putting in the whirlfloc I think "surely I've forgotten something, it can't be _that_ simple", but it is.

:icon_cheers:


----------



## felten

The burner went on at 1pm and I siphoned into the cube at 6:30pm, most of that time was spent pacing around my pot like an expectant father. The bag I have is a similar design to the gryphon bag but it's home made.


----------



## bradk

Evening everyone,

Well, 87 pages in this thread! Good work!

I have almost got my kit together(only the burner is required) and will produce my first BIAB in about a week or two. Am looking forward to the experience! So far, I have only done K&k or fresh worts so lack any experience in AG, or even partial for that matter. Is there a dedicated BIAB recipe section?

I know I could look through all 87 pages, but does anyone have a recipe or can point me to a list of recipes for a European style beer? I am looking to replicate a Peroni, or Stella style at this stage? I need to get the grain bill to my old man who will be bringing it pre crushed to me in the next week 

Cheers,

Brad


----------



## wizard78

Brad_ said:


> Evening everyone,
> 
> Well, 87 pages in this thread! Good work!
> 
> I have almost got my kit together(only the burner is required) and will produce my first BIAB in about a week or two. Am looking forward to the experience! So far, I have only done K&k or fresh worts so lack any experience in AG, or even partial for that matter. Is there a dedicated BIAB recipe section?
> 
> I know I could look through all 87 pages, but does anyone have a recipe or can point me to a list of recipes for a European style beer? I am looking to replicate a Peroni, or Stella style at this stage? I need to get the grain bill to my old man who will be bringing it pre crushed to me in the next week
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Brad




G'day Brad,
Check this thread Link. 
Thistyboy actually brews it for a brewery, or he is a very thirsty boy :chug: 
Also if you want some more info on Biab PistolPatch has noted on his thread in the previous page that he has opened the biabrewer.info website. (It is very time consuming to read through 87 pages. I've tried :blink: )
Cheers :beer:


----------



## nikgr

Dear friends finaly I managed to make my first biab this Monday.I brew an APA aiming for 10 liters of 1.054 S.G .Everything was calculated with the provided excel file and I was astonished with the result due to some minor problem (an unwanted boilover ) which led to 9.5 liters in my fermentor of 1.064 SG instead of 11.30 liters calculated.
So the first measured numbers until the boilover where exact as calculated.So I beleive my efficiency was over 80% .So I am very happy and I am looking forward the next brewday.The beer now ferments happily and I cant wait until the first taste.Here are some photos from my brew day.












I forgot to mention that I mashed at 68C for 90min and mashout at 75C for 10 min.


----------



## Hashie

Well done nikgr, welcome to the world of all grain BIAB brewing.

Top work on getting the kids to mill the grain for you


----------



## nikgr

Thank you for your comments . Kids love assigments like this as there is enough dirt and adventure also they are participating to the whole procces (mashing ,cleaning bottles ) on the safe side of course (away from boiling detergents chemicals) and now they like it more because they are more steps than just pouring some extract in a kettle .Also my wife liked a lot because I move the "brewery" to balcony so there is no mess in the kitchen.


----------



## Hashie

You've certainly got it worked out nikgr, keep the wife and the kids happy and you can brew forever.

Well done.


----------



## jimmysuperlative

_*100% Wheat Beer with BIAB*_ ...I just cut and pasted my post from biabrewer.info

Steve and James from Basic Brewing use the BIAB method to brew a 100% wheat beer (with decoction) and generally espouse the benefits of using BIAB for wheat beers...


Basic Brewing page linky


Look for April 15, 2010 - All-Wheat Beer edition

I think I'll give it a bash myself!


----------



## katzke

jimmysuperlative said:


> _*100% Wheat Beer with BIAB*_ ...I just cut and pasted my post from biabrewer.info
> 
> Steve and James from Basic Brewing use the BIAB method to brew a 100% wheat beer (with decoction) and generally espouse the benefits of using BIAB for wheat beers...
> 
> 
> Basic Brewing page linky
> 
> 
> Look for April 15, 2010 - All-Wheat Beer edition
> 
> I think I'll give it a bash myself!



Old news. Did that last year and posted it on this site.


----------



## jimmysuperlative

Please re-post the link to your video!!!!?


----------



## Thirsty Boy

I'm glad we showed James how to BIAB - he obviously likes the technique and is giving it a good run. Handy that he does video too which is really useful for newbies.


----------



## peterhop

I've been brewing AGs for the last 5 years. Went onto the internet to try to raise my game. 

I found Napisan, starsan, SMaSH, BIAB, no-chill, no-secondary. Wow. A revolution. Particularly BIAB.

Thanks to all who developed BIAB, who raised it from a gleam in the eye to suds at the bottom of a glass.


----------



## Bribie G

Hi Peter
One of the guys who really got stuck into BIAB when it was still in the wilderness, and who has contributed heaps of experience and knowledge is (username reviled who is also resident in AUK
You might want to PM him as he might be near where you are?

:icon_cheers:


----------



## marksy

After spending months reading these forums and espically this 87page post I finally went down the AG path. Just to make sure I got my technique down I made 2 brews using the BIAB way (over 2 days). Both are appear to be chugging along to the point I have had to fill both air locks up with water this morning. 

So thankyou very much for all of you who have contributed to this post and the many others.


----------



## Hashie

Well done on your first 2 AG brews Marksy.

Welcome to the wonderful world of BIAB.


----------



## barneyb

I knocked out my first AG (and BIAB) the other day and am trying to crunch the numbers but am a little confused. 

My recipe was:
2kg Joe White Export Pilsner
200g Carapils
10g Amarillo @ 60 min 
10g Cascade @ 20 min 
With a goal of 10L in the fermenter. 

I put the malt in 10L of water with a strike temp of 70C, after an hour I mashed out at 66C. After a bunch of squeezing I dunked the bag in 1L of 70C water and squeezed some more.

My BG was 1038 @ 58C = 1052 @ room temp. According to this I multiply the malt extract rate (.77) x 384 = 295.68, so therefore (2.2kg x 295.68) / 10L = 65.
52/65 = 80%. Not bad for a first go? Did I calculate it right (if I do it in the American way I get 78%)? I think I am supposed to divide by 11L but that makes my efficiency 87% which I can't believe. 

Anyway I boiled for an hour and no chilled feeling pretty good about myself. The next day I chuck the wort into the fermenter and to my horror it only went up to 5.5L with an OG of 1064. I expected some boil off but not that much! By this rate if I diluted to 10L my OG would be 1035, not quite the 1051 beer smith predicted. I got around this by adding 2L to the fermenter and boiling 2.5L water with 330g LDME which gave me a loverly OG of 1050, but my question is where did I go wrong? Why did my OG suffer so much after the boil? Or are my maths totally wrong?

PS I never thought I'd ever go to all grain but BIAB makes it so easy. Why do I have to wait so long to drink it? :icon_cheers:


----------



## Thirsty Boy

1st - the conversion tables work like absolute crap at high temperatures. They are fine for adjusting between 25 and the calibration temp of your hydrometer... but all the ones I have used are shitty when trying to convert from mash temp.

2nd - after you pulled teh bag out.. there wasn't 10L in there anymore. More like between 8 and 9 L with the balance absorbed in the spent grain. Then you added back 1 L. You cant work out your efficiency into the boil, because you had no way of knowing the actual volume.

3rd - boiling that much off when you start with that sort of a volume is certainly not abnormal

4th - there isn't a great deal of chance that your fermenter is accurately calibrated

Throwing your numbers into pro-mash... (lets assume your fermenter is right)

You had 5.5L of 1.064 wort from 2.2kg of grain. Thats an efficiency of about 55% ... which is pretty bad for BIAB. So I suspect that your mash didn't go so well, and also that you have made a few measurement errors.

I can see no particular reason why... your mash temp would have been 65-66 which is a little on the low side but perfectly OK, you said you mashed out (actually you said 66 but I assume a typo and you meant 76) - you even sparged a little. Nothing wrong there at all.

For next time - 

*Remember to calibrate your fermenter so you know its accurate, do the same thing with your boil pot. 1L increments scratched into a stick or something.

*Did you stir well?? Both when you first put in the grain, while you were raising to mash out and before you pulled out the bag?? If not, you should.

*Do a test boil of about 10L of water for 1 hour.. now that you know how much is in your pot at the start and finish, you can work out how much you boil off.

*No need to really squeeze the hell out of the bag - a thorough but gentle squeeze is all thats needed and there is a possibility that squeezing too hard might make bad things come out of the spent grain. Probably not, but better safe than sorry when you dont need to squeeze hard anyway.

*If you are going to sparge... then 1L is a silly amount. If you are gonna do it, do it with a decent amount. I suggest at _least_ twice as much water as grain, so 2.2kg of grain... 4.4L of sparge water and I would see no problem at all with sparging with up to 1/2 your total water quotient

*You need more water. Assuming it will fit in your pot, you are going to need more if you expect more in your fermenter. Say you want 10L in your fermenter... well you know you lose about 3L(ish) per hour to the boil (you will know exactly for next time because of the test boil you're going to do) so you need to start your boil with 13L - you will lose about 0.65L of water to spent grain for every kg of grain you start with. So if you use the same amount of grain next time - you need to add 0.65x2.2= 1.43 lets call it 1.5L to make up for that - a total of 14.5L of water. That doesn't include leaving behind any trub in the kettle, but lets not worry about that for now.

So if you want 10L at the end of your boil... you are going to need about 14.5L of water altogether. I would mash with 8-9 and sparge with 5.5-6.5 .. but that will depend heavily on what size pot you have to heat your sparge water and other things like that. 

That seems like a long list of things you did "wrong" but not really, you got it almost completely right - aside from a few minor things, your process was just fine. Tweak a few of the little things I have pointed out, have another crack - and things will get more predictable and easier within a few brews.

Well done on the first brew - You wont even notice the little bit of extract. I'm sure it will turn out well. Hope I have been a little helpful.

TB


----------



## barneyb

Thirsty Boy said:


> 1st - the conversion tables work like absolute crap at high temperatures. They are fine for adjusting between 25 and the calibration temp of your hydrometer... but all the ones I have used are shitty when trying to convert from mash temp.


I used beersmith to calculate it but I assume it would use the same crappy tables. 



> Throwing your numbers into pro-mash... (lets assume your fermenter is right)
> 
> You had 5.5L of 1.064 wort from 2.2kg of grain. Thats an efficiency of about 55% ... which is pretty bad for BIAB. So I suspect that your mash didn't go so well, and also that you have made a few measurement errors.


Yeech that is bad. Seeing as we don't have a accurate volume pre-boil, can we still measure post-boil like this? Or is it off a bit? 



> I can see no particular reason why... your mash temp would have been 65-66 which is a little on the low side but perfectly OK, you said you mashed out (actually you said 66 but I assume a typo and you meant 76) - you even sparged a little. Nothing wrong there at all.


Ok I have to admit I got my terminology a bit wrong. For some reason I thought mash out was the temp that you finish your mash at, I didn't actually "mash out", 66C was the temp the wort was as after 1 hour. For these small batches what strike temp would you suggest? Should I start a few degrees higher?



> *Did you stir well?? Both when you first put in the grain, while you were raising to mash out and before you pulled out the bag?? If not, you should.


I stirred a bit when I put the grain in but not when I pulled the bag out. I could have probably stirred a bit better too, I was paranoid about losing temp. 



> *If you are going to sparge... then 1L is a silly amount. If you are gonna do it, do it with a decent amount. I suggest at _least_ twice as much water as grain, so 2.2kg of grain... 4.4L of sparge water and I would see no problem at all with sparging with up to 1/2 your total water quotient


When I sparged I was just dunking the grain into the bucket like a tea bag, is that ok?



> That seems like a long list of things you did "wrong" but not really, you got it almost completely right - aside from a few minor things, your process was just fine. Tweak a few of the little things I have pointed out, have another crack - and things will get more predictable and easier within a few brews.
> 
> Well done on the first brew - You wont even notice the little bit of extract. I'm sure it will turn out well. Hope I have been a little helpful.


Ill definitely be having another crack this weekend, I never expected it do go perfectly the first time but I got the OG where I wanted it in the end so it shouldn't turn out a complete disaster (although I have some concerns about my hop utilization but that's another story). Plus I bought 12.5kg of pilsner grain that needs to be used! Plus plus there is something about making the beer from the grains which seems more..authentic? 

You have been more than a little helpful, thanks for all the info (including the stuff I didn't quote). Ill be spending tonight calibrating all my equipment. Hopefully between my tea kettle and bucket (it has litre markings) I can find some accuracy. Cheers. :icon_chickcheers:


----------



## Thirsty Boy

barneyb said:


> Yeech that is bad. Seeing as we don't have a accurate volume pre-boil, can we still measure post-boil like this? Or is it off a bit?
> 
> Yep - the amount of sugar is the same pre and post boil. Its a function of Specific Gravity x volume, no matter what stage you are up to
> 
> 
> Ok I have to admit I got my terminology a bit wrong. For some reason I thought mash out was the temp that you finish your mash at, I didn't actually "mash out", 66C was the temp the wort was as after 1 hour. For these small batches what strike temp would you suggest? Should I start a few degrees higher?
> 
> No problems there then - If you started with 70 water that would give you an initial mash temp of 65-66... and thats where you finished. Perfectly good. You held temperature well and with those temps should have had no conversion problems. I think that an actual mashout is important for BIAB - ie you raise your temperature after the main mash period is over, up to 74-78C. In my experience this will significantly increase your efficiency and will also help your beers to not be too dry.. which I find is a mild issue with BIAB beers. You put on your heat and stir stir stir while constantly taking temperature readings. I suggest you try to take about 10 minutes to raise your temperature up to 76C - let it rest there for a few minutes and then pull out your bag. Don't mess with your strike temps yet though - yours were perhaps a degree or two lower than I would use, but you have to see how things work out on your individual system. Just use the temperatures that whatever recipe you are working off suggests for now.
> 
> 
> I stirred a bit when I put the grain in but not when I pulled the bag out. I could have probably stirred a bit better too, I was paranoid about losing temp.
> 
> One of the beauties of BIAB - you can directly heat your mash. Stir it up well when you first mash in, let it rest for 5 minutes and stir again, taking a temperature this time. Add heat if you need to (you need to stir constantly whenever you have your heat on) - You can check temp a couple/few times during the mash if you want to, stirring and adding eat as required - Stirring as you raise to the mashout temp does many good things - Stirring before you pull out the bag distributes the sugars evenly rather than leaving them concentrated in and around the grains.
> 
> 
> When I sparged I was just dunking the grain into the bucket like a tea bag, is that ok?
> 
> I don't think so. I do think that dunking in a bucket/pot is the best/easiest way to sparge a BIAB - but just dipping it in some water isn't going to do a lot. You need to get it in a decent amount of water, stir it around, poke it, prod it, mix it up. Think of it like washing a jumper and trying to rinse out the soap... if you shoved a soapy jumper in a bag and just dipped the bag in 1L of water... how much of the soap do you think would come out?? But if you dip it in 5 or 6L of water and stir it around... then pull it out and give it a squeeze??? Sparging is just rinsing grain; and rinsing is rinsing - if it wouldn't work on a bag of soapy socks, it wont work on a bag of grain.
> 
> 
> Ill definitely be having another crack this weekend, I never expected it do go perfectly the first time but I got the OG where I wanted it in the end so it shouldn't turn out a complete disaster (although I have some concerns about my hop utilization but that's another story). Plus I bought 12.5kg of pilsner grain that needs to be used! Plus plus there is something about making the beer from the grains which seems more..authentic?
> 
> You have been more than a little helpful, thanks for all the info (including the stuff I didn't quote). Ill be spending tonight calibrating all my equipment. Hopefully between my tea kettle and bucket (it has litre markings) I can find some accuracy. Cheers. :icon_chickcheers:



glad to be of service - 2 more brews and I bet you are hitting your numbers fairly close by then.

TB


----------



## barneyb

Ah some more great advice. Thanks again, I wish Saturday would come sooner!


----------



## PistolPatch

Please excuse my belated congratulations to nikgr, Peterhop, marksy and barneyb on your first BIABs. I am amazed that some of you guys actually read through this whole thread!!! (Great pics too thanks nik.)

Would have said congratulations earlier but I was overseas drinking Bavarian pilzners for a month! Also had a Munich Dunkell from the oldest abbey in the world still brewing it. To be quite honest, it was... spectacular!!! The biggest quandary I had overseas was trying to work out whether or not to bring bottles back from the Weltenberg Abbey. Unfortunately, I left all bottles with my brother-in-law .

I see the old efficiency problem has come up again for some of you and it looks as though you have been getting well looked after. Don't worry about efficiency too much - see here and here.

This trip overseas has confirmed something for me - brewing great beers is simple. Simple sound practices, quality ingredients and recipes are the true keys and that _*is*_ it.

Spot,
Pat


----------



## Phoney

Has anyone come up with any smarter method of bag squeezing other than using your hands + gloves?

Im thinking of experimenting using either ratchet straps or perhaps a modified utility clamp with two boards of ply to sandwich the bag together to effortlessly squeeze that liquor out of there..


----------



## katzke

phoneyhuh said:


> Has anyone come up with any smarter method of bag squeezing other than using your hands + gloves?
> 
> Im thinking of experimenting using either ratchet straps or perhaps a modified utility clamp with two boards of ply to sandwich the bag together to effortlessly squeeze that liquor out of there..



Too much work for the return. I use the twist method while in the pot and then hang to drain. I have a pole so I can let it drain into the kettle while it is coming up to boil. I have left it drain after that in a bucket and even given the cool bag a good squeeze. I usually do not get enough wort in the bucket to make it worth messing with.

The harder you squeeze the more gunk you get in your wort. I am not any more heat tolerant then any other guy I know and have never used gloves. 

Remember BIAB is supposed to be easy. I may use a touch more grain then a traditional brewer. Can not say for sure, as I do not swap recipes. My mash efficiency is in the mid 70s so I must be doing OK.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

When squeezing, I use a couple of pot lids - only because they are there and I prefer it to wringing the bag. If I can't find the pot lids in the ever-growing pile of stuff in my brewery I will just use my Bare Hands. I will give it a few squeezes over the period - whatever is out of the bag when the boil starts is pretty much what is going to come out. 

I will usually only DunkSparge(tm) when I'm doing a big batch of a big beer or for some other (usually BS) reason.

I can say with a great deal of certainty that making your brewday easier by doing it The One True Way is worth whatever the extra few grains of malt is going to cost you. A skyhook (or in my case a small gantry crane with a rope ratchet) is probably the only thing I would recommend over and above the bare minimum equipment to make for the perfect brewday.

Having said all that, the entire process as documented and all the good and bad extensions have come about as a result of experimenting and cussing, so if that is your thing, goforit.


----------



## MarkBastard

I keep forgetting to, but I'm going to get a cake rack and put that in the bottom of my 19L pot, and just chuck the bag on top and let it drain that way.

ie, not gunna even squeeze.

Just let it drain while you're ramping up to boiling.

I'm gunna give it a go anyway, see how it works out. A no squeeze / no rope BIAB would be so much easier.


----------



## Phoney

Fair enough, in that case I wont bother. I'll continue with the bit of a squeeze and hang/drip method


----------



## Ross

Mark^Bastard said:


> I keep forgetting to, but I'm going to get a cake rack and put that in the bottom of my 19L pot, and just chuck the bag on top and let it drain that way.
> 
> ie, not gunna even squeeze.
> 
> Just let it drain while you're ramping up to boiling.
> 
> I'm gunna give it a go anyway, see how it works out. A no squeeze / no rope BIAB would be so much easier.



Or you could put your cake rack against the drain hole of an esky (assuming you own one), mash in your bag in the esky, recirculate until clear & drain into your urn while bringing to the boil.

Seriously, if you've out grown the simplicity of biab in a one vessel set up, do yourself a favour and consider mashing/sparging in the traditional manner.

cheers Ross

Edit: Not having a go at BIAB, as we recommend it here in the shop all the time to get people into AG.


----------



## katzke

Ross said:


> Or you could put your cake rack against the drain hole of an esky (assuming you own one), mash in your bag in the esky, recirculate until clear & drain into your urn while bringing to the boil.
> 
> Seriously, if you've out grown the simplicity of biab in a one vessel set up, do yourself a favour and consider mashing/sparging in the traditional manner.
> 
> cheers Ross
> 
> Edit: Not having a go at BIAB, as we recommend it here in the shop all the time to get people into AG.



OK, will take the bait.

What is the advantage to converting from BIAB to a traditional multi vessel system for the average brewer?

Notice I said the average brewer.

Even non-average brews can be done with BIAB. The only technique I have not entirely figured out would be first wort hopping. I have mash hopped and brew quite a few wheat beers and Wits with no additional messing about with rice gulls. See no reason to make the expensive and time consuming conversion to a multi-vessel system.

Or was that your point?


----------



## katzke

All this talk lately about sparging for a little extra sugar and ways to drain the bag for that same little extra sugar has me thinking.

If I were going to make any change to the basic BIAB setup or method, I would look at the leftovers in the kettle as a source of good quality sugar.

We recommend a cake rack to keep from burning the bag. A nice false bottom with a hop/filter screen like in a multi vessel boil kettle include a plate chiller and a tap on the kettle would also be nice. I live in the land of endless water so use an immersion chiller then use my racking cane to transfer the cooled wort form my kettle to the fermentor. I leave quite a bit of wort in with the hops and break. More then could be gained by getting every last drop from the bag. After all we are getting more from the grain then those that use a mash tun. The only difference I see is what I leave behind in my boil kettle as compared to the fancy mutli-vessel systems with false bottoms or hop screens.


----------



## Ross

Katzke,

No baiting intended... i was simply stating that if you are going to use additional vessels to drop your bag into & don't like lifting/hanging/dripping, why not mash in the traditional manner. The whole concept of BIAB is supposed to simplicity & using minimum equipment.

The ability to recirculate & get a clear wort as well as increased efficiency from not doing a single flood sparge is preferrable in my opinion, but it's certainly not essential for making good beer.


cheers Ross

FYI Pistolpatch & myself were 2 of the earliest pioneers of BIAB, as we tried to use as small a thumbprint as possible for brewing in his 1 bed apartment - Fun days


----------



## argon

katzke said:


> OK, will take the bait.
> 
> What is the advantage to converting from BIAB to a traditional multi vessel system for the average brewer?
> 
> Notice I said the average brewer.
> 
> Even non-average brews can be done with BIAB. The only technique I have not entirely figured out would be first wort hopping. I have mash hopped and brew quite a few wheat beers and Wits with no additional messing about with rice gulls. See no reason to make the expensive and time consuming conversion to a multi-vessel system.
> 
> Or was that your point?



I think for me the conversion over to traditional AG would be to do double batches. I currently use my esky to mash out. That is fill with 20L at mash out temp, dunk sparge, stir, drain etc. This helps due to the limitation in size of my mash tun/kettle. So that way i'm not really doing the "traditional BIAB" anyway. The step to 2 or 3V traditional AG wouldn't be too different. 

When doing single batches, which i don't do anymore, i just use the simplified version of BIAB... no faffing about at all. 

But if i was really serious about simplifying double batches i'd probably just go and buy a bigger mash tun/kettle and stick with BIAB anyway. I have a 50L Keggle that handles double batches ok with a bit of calculation and using an esky. i would imagine a 100L or even 70L pot, i'd do doubles no worries.

But for the price of a big kettle like that, i could set myself up with a second 50L Keggle (already have) a second burner (already have) and another bag to do side by side doubles of different varieties.


----------



## Ross

katzke said:


> After all we are getting more from the grain then those that use a mash tun. The only difference I see is what I leave behind in my boil kettle as compared to the fancy mutli-vessel systems with false bottoms or hop screens.




Not quite true, a fly or double run-off batch sparge on a traditional mash will give you better efficiency than a full volume BIAB flood sparge - but again it's not essential to making good beer.

Cheers Ross

Edit: A batch sparger could quite easily squeeze the grain bed after draining to extract more liquid & probably a lot easier, but I don't know anyone at a homebrew level who bothers.


----------



## marksy

phoneyhuh said:


> Has anyone come up with any smarter method of bag squeezing other than using your hands + gloves?
> 
> Im thinking of experimenting using either ratchet straps or perhaps a modified utility clamp with two boards of ply to sandwich the bag together to effortlessly squeeze that liquor out of there..




I sit my bag in a big strainer that we use for noodles then with the lid from my pot I squash down but only after i leave it sitting there to drip for awhile. Or if you can suspend the bag you can get 2 sauspan lids and sqiush sideways.


----------



## MarkBastard

Ross said:


> Or you could put your cake rack against the drain hole of an esky (assuming you own one), mash in your bag in the esky, recirculate until clear & drain into your urn while bringing to the boil.
> 
> Seriously, if you've out grown the simplicity of biab in a one vessel set up, do yourself a favour and consider mashing/sparging in the traditional manner.
> 
> cheers Ross
> 
> Edit: Not having a go at BIAB, as we recommend it here in the shop all the time to get people into AG.



My eski is pretty gross otherwise I definitely would do a full volume mash in an eski and drain back into the HLT and away I go.

I don't think I'm talking about something very complicated. At the moment I lift the bag, which is the hard part unless you have the urn very low, get the wife to give it a good squeeze, and then I chuck the bag into my 19L Big W pot, which is really being used as a bucket not a second vessel.

The cake rack would just be to keep the bag off the bottom of the pot/bucket and allow the wort to drain off rather than needing squeezing. Would seriously be easier than using rope or even just lifting and holding above the urn.

Considering I already own the pot and a cake rack costs nothing I'm gunna give it a go for sure.

Like I said, if I had a clean eski around I could use the BIAB bag in the eski and it'd be a similar thing, but surely this would drain like arse without a manifold/false bottom? Otherwise why not just shove some mesh into the eski drain to stop the grain coming through and not even use a bag?


----------



## Bribie G

I think the point being made by the OP is something that occurs to most if not all BIABers - after the hoist and drain and squeeze, that spent grain tastes annoyingly sweet. Bugger bugger bugger, all those nice fermentables going into the compost or to the chooks. 

So two avenues suggest themselves, some sort of sparge, and some sort of really serious squeeze.

In practice however, it's probably better just to pony up an extra dollar and put in a tad more grain initially. I sparge now and again if I have a big grain bill because my 40 L urn is a bit of a strait jacket and the hoisting of the bag takes so much wort out of the vessel that a smallish sparge restores the correct pre boil volume by washing some back in. This doesn't arise for beers with a grain bill of less than around 5k, I have found - say for a mild or an Aussie lager with 4k total of grain it's not worth the hassle. As far as squeezing goes, many International mega breweries of the Interemegabevbrewcorp sort use massive hydraulic press arrangements to wring the last euro cent out of every batch. But then that's their main purpose in life, to make money for the shareholders.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

The thing is - even when you have a system with intergral sparging... the grains still taste sweet. A stock BIAB with no sparge will probably get you somewhere in the vicinity of 70-75% efficiency... a moderate batch sparge system will do only a little better. So the grains in the batch system will taste just as sweet as the BIAB grains.

You sparge the BIAB... you get more sugars out and the grains taste less sweet... you feel better, but you have actually gone over and above what's normal for average brewers to experience. Its something that many BIAB brewers won't really have their heads around because they have never brewed in another way... but the other ways just aren't that much more efficient than BIAB. (fly sparging excluded... it is)

I actually concur entirely with Ross - I see so many people starting to creep up the complexity of their BIAB systems and also think that they might well benefit from a serious consideration of the non-BIAB options.

Certainly not everyone - some people want to fancy up their BIAB systems and intend to deliberately stick with BIAB because they like it the fundamentals. But others started BIABing solely for the simplicity... if they are going to fancy up. There is a whole world of other options out there, some of which I think are a bit better than BIAB at various aspects of the brewing process.

Squeezing - jeez... how much are you guys trying to squeeze that its such a pain?? Pull the bag out... let it hang over a bucket till it stops dripping, give it a quick squeeze for a few seconds.... done. If the entire process of pulling and squeezing your bag takes a cumulative total even of 2mins worth of you actually doing something (not including dripping time) you're working too hard.


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## Nick JD

Thirsty Boy said:


> Squeezing - jeez...



I don't squeeze, I loveingly and soothingly coax the sweet liquor from the udder. I empty the bucket into the pot and then put the grain bag in the bucket and put a lid on it to keep the bugs out.

Then three days later I walk past an relaise I still haven't emptied the bag and hosed it out. Upon taking the lid off the green bucket I :icon_vomit: 

There's about 3-400ml of sweet & sour soup in the bottom.


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## MarkBastard

Thirsty Boy said:


> Squeezing - jeez... how much are you guys trying to squeeze that its such a pain?? Pull the bag out... let it hang over a bucket till it stops dripping, give it a quick squeeze for a few seconds.... done. If the entire process of pulling and squeezing your bag takes a cumulative total even of 2mins worth of you actually doing something (not including dripping time) you're working too hard.



All I was suggesting was that instead of 'hanging' over a bucket, I want to put in a cake rack into the bucket that will act as a spacer between the grain bag and the bottom of the bucket.

This would be a zero squeeze solution.

I can't talk for everyone's grain bag, but mine drains pretty damn slowly. When I first pull it out there's actually liquid above the grain that does NOT just fall out of the size of the bag straight away. The bag is actually temporary able to hold an amount of liquid and impede that liquids flow. This causes almost a suction when pulling the bag out. Then once I have it above the level of the wort, the water does take a while to drain out of the bag. I don't mean a while to fully drain, but a while to sensibly drain. You need to hold it above the urn/kettle for at least a few minutes until the constant stream stops flowing so heavily.

My idea is to be able to transfer it to sitting on the cake rack in the bucket as quickly as possible, so you don't have to sit there holding the bag for as long. This would make the most 'stressful' part of the BIAB process much easier. The bag would then fully drain into the bottom of the bucket without a skyhook or rope around a door (that will then get sticky crap all over it). You can then add that runoff all in one go to the main pot. Piss easy. Easier than anything that involves a rope.

There's no extra equipment. You're replacing a rope plus either a skyhook or door handle with a cheap cake rack which can no doubt be used by SWMBO in the kitchen anyway.


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## Thirsty Boy

Well that make a lot of sense - in your instance its because you have a different material than the normal one, which makes your bag behave differently. So you get a different experience. The normal "voile" recommended for BIAB does drain the majority of free liquid almost immediately - with liquid draining from the grain being the rate limiting step.

At any rate - I wasn't actually questioning your cake rack idea - perfectly fine idea imho - cake rack/colander/bit of mesh over a bucket... same job as hanging.

I was only questioning that I have heard a few people mention what a chore squeezing was... and wondered why, what they were doing differently, when its so easy for me.


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## Phoney

"Ross" said:


> Not quite true, a fly or double run-off batch sparge on a traditional mash will give you better efficiency than a full volume BIAB flood sparge - but again it's not essential to making good beer.


 But then, I almost always hit 75% efficiency with my full volume BIAB flood sparges, so I wouldnt really want much better efficiency than that.... would I?

(This might change when the Urninator comes online but we shall wait and see) 




Thirsty Boy said:


> I actually concur entirely with Ross - I see so many people starting to creep up the complexity of their BIAB systems and also think that they might well benefit from a serious consideration of the non-BIAB options.
> 
> Certainly not everyone - some people want to fancy up their BIAB systems and intend to deliberately stick with BIAB because they like it the fundamentals. But others started BIABing solely for the simplicity... if they are going to fancy up. There is a whole world of other options out there, some of which I think are a bit better than BIAB at various aspects of the brewing process.



Yes as Ross also pointed out, one of the two main benefits of BIAB is minimal equipment. Equipment takes up space, especially 50L+ vessels. If you are severely limited in living space, like me; I opted for BIAB over traditional setups because I simply dont have enough room for a 3V HERMS setup in my home. So all I can do is fancy up what I have to work with to make my brew day all the more easier, effortless, efficient and consistent. This is what I have been trying to do so far and what I intend to keep on doing. Reducing a 2 minute procedure down to a 20 second procedure is at least worth researching and experimenting in as it all ads up! (in my opinion anyway)

Now that it's been confirmed that squeezing that extra 1/2L of sweet wort out of the grains isnt actually worth any effort im happy to move on.


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## katzke

phoneyhuh said:


> Now that it's been confirmed that squeezing that extra 1/2L of sweet wort out of the grains isnt actually worth any effort im happy to move on.



One thing you can do with the hour or more you have while boiling is mess about with the bag of grain and see if you can get any extra wort from it with minimal effort. It could be that you are leaving wort behind that could be easily recovered.

Course if you get an extra liter or 2 then you have to mess about with your water volume to get your recipe to work out.

Sometimes it is best to leave well enough alone.


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## katzke

Ross said:


> Katzke,
> 
> No baiting intended... i was simply stating that if you are going to use additional vessels to drop your bag into & don't like lifting/hanging/dripping, why not mash in the traditional manner. The whole concept of BIAB is supposed to simplicity & using minimum equipment.



Ross, 

Sorry bait may not have been the best word.

The best part of BIAB is the simplicity of it. I think it is easier then when I was brewing with steeping grains and liquid extract. That could be why some of us defend the simple version. I was sure that was what you were saying. Just wanted to remove any doubt.

Brewing on a 2 or 3 vessel system is much more involved. I never hear anyone complaining about brewers that add complicated contraptions to multi vessel systems. I know of one that can only be used by the designer as it has so many valves that no other human can figure out how to brew with it.


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## felten

Mark^Bastard said:


> When I first pull it out there's actually liquid above the grain that does NOT just fall out of the size of the bag straight away. The bag is actually temporary able to hold an amount of liquid and impede that liquids flow. This causes almost a suction when pulling the bag out. Then once I have it above the level of the wort, the water does take a while to drain out of the bag. I don't mean a while to fully drain, but a while to sensibly drain. You need to hold it above the urn/kettle for at least a few minutes until the constant stream stops flowing so heavily.



I have the same kind of material and it's definitely a major pain in the arse to lift out, I have a hook above my brew pot that helps out, and lets me tie it up, but it really could do with a pulley setup.

As for squeezing, I choked the crap out of mine for a while :X good to know It doesn't have to be done in the future.


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## malbur

It took me a while to workout why I was going through so many bags, the bags where all pulled around the stitching after only 5 brews, and it all came down to squeezing the hell out of it, so now I am a little bit gentler with squeezing and twisting of the bag with still the same results :icon_cheers: 

Mal


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

I have a pasta pot of 9L, with a metal pasta strainer in it.

After my first BIAB, and what appeared to be poor efficiency (or just a crappy hyrdrometer) and my hands were a little red afterward (fortunately my kids weigh about the same as a wet bag of grain, so I could hold it up) and stuff going everywhere (and the associated complaints from the allegedly better half) - I thought "I'll just dump the grain in the pasta top one, and run a little hot water over it, squeeze it and get soem stuff out of it".

I know I'm probably opening another "simplicity" can of worms, but it appears to be the middle ground between efficiency and simplicity - it appears to be better than hanging, dunking, twisting and so forth.


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## Thirsty Boy

It was your first BIAB.... I suggest that any conclusions you drew about the method's possible efficiency or mess making potential were perhaps premature??

The point is - that with normal, no sparge BIAB - you should be getting efficiencies in the 70-80% range.. if you aren't, then you are doing something else wrong - it is not that you need to sparge.

You can sparge - but you should not need to sparge to be getting efficiency of the same order as a batch sparge system. No one is saying not to sparge - no one!! Just that you don't need to to brew in a effective and efficient manner.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Thirsty Boy said:


> It was your first BIAB.... I suggest that any conclusions you drew about the method's possible efficiency or mess making potential were perhaps premature??
> 
> The point is - that with normal, no sparge BIAB - you should be getting efficiencies in the 70-80% range.. if you aren't, then you are doing something else wrong - it is not that you need to sparge.
> 
> You can sparge - but you should not need to sparge to be getting efficiency of the same order as a batch sparge system. No one is saying not to sparge - no one!! Just that you don't need to to brew in a effective and efficient manner.



I probably should clarify that I didn't sparge, just squeezed the bag. Just thought next time I'd sparge (well at least find a better way to squeeze, hence the pasta pot).

Part of it (I know of) was the fact that I used too small a pot for the size of the wort I needed and so watered it down. Having said that, years of partial extract brewing told me that the taste of the wort was reasonable, if slightly weakened. Bitterness where I'd wanted it.

Lesson to me was to stick to 9L batches until I can obtain a pot big enough to mash in or use two pots and do 2 concurrent mashes, boil and combine. Not sure about that, and besides, I like being able to experiment often.


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## MarkBastard

Thirsty Boy said:


> with normal, no sparge BIAB - you should be getting efficiencies in the 70-80% range.. if you aren't, then you are doing something else wrong



Is that into fermenter efficiency?


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## PistolPatch

Mark^Bastard said:


> Is that into fermenter efficiency?


That would be mash efficiency* that is being referred to Mark. Efficiency into fermenter is usually a lot lower for all types of AG brewing. Efficiency talk can get very confusing especially when some posts are made based on guesses rather than personal experience and science. A bit of this has been going on here recently so...

*BIAB Efficiency (Non-Fiction )​*
BIAB is actually a very efficient brewing method - about 4.5% higher than batch-sparging done with a double run-off. This is not based on guesses but on personal experience and fact...

1. Personal Experience - Using the same kettle (and this is important) I achieved brews about 4%-5% higher than batch-sparging with a double run-off. Same recipes etc and based on several brews.

2. Science - If you want to wade through this article, you will find that Briggs, a well-known brewing authority, concludes, "that thinner mashes perform better and allow for better extraction of the grain."

It is important to listen to sources that have done the experiments and/or collected the figures. When comparing one batch to another it is also important to ensure the same size kettle is being used. (Larger kettles require more water due to higher evaporation and therefore will yield slightly higher efficiencies.) The figures I have collected from myself and other brewers show an average mash efficiency of 79.25% which is great.

This no miracle. There are several simple reasons why a BIAB brew (raised to mash out temperatures) will give higher efficiency than a double run-off batch-sparge.

A. No "Tun" Deadspace: In BIAB there is no deadspace.

B. Higher Sparge Temperature: In a double run-off batch sparge, it is impossible to get the grain bed to mash out temperatures on the first run-off even when adding boiling water straight to the bed (which isn't a truly great idea anyway.) If adding water at say 78 degrees you will, of course, never be able to get the grain bed to mash out temperature. In BIAB, the _*entire*_ sparge can be done at mash out temperature. In other words, with BIAB we are able to do a much higher temperature sparge. This is a great advantage.

C. Larger Surface Area Run-Off: With traditional brewing, the run-off from the sparge is confined to the mash tun outlet. Besides possible channelling problems, the sparge is also slow. With BIAB, there is no channelling and the run-off is fast as the wort can escape through the entire surface area of the wetted grain bag. You can drain a mash tun or a bag for several hours and get run-off if you want to. This of course is silly. If however you decide on cutting your sparge at the start of the boil, then you will have drained more liquor from the bag than you will have from the tun. This is the reason why a BIAB grain bed weighs less than a traditional bed.

I hope the above establishes that BIAB is a very efficient mash - just one of its many advantages.

Spot ya,
Pat

*Mash efficiency is either efficiency into boiler or post-boil efficiency. Theoretically these two figures should be identical. The brewer's figures I have collected show an average discrepancy of 2.5% between these figures - nothing to get hung up on though. The figure of 79.25% used above is the average of the two.


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## Ross

PistolPatch said:


> BIAB is actually a very efficient brewing method - about 4.5% higher than batch-sparging done with a double run-off. This is not based on guesses but on personal experience and fact...




Sorry Pat, but i don't believe this statement is not correct. Efficiency with a single dunk sparge cannont give better efficiency than a double run-off batch sparge, all things being equal.
I brew both both ways with my current RIMS unit, & the single full volume mash consistantly gives over 10% lower efficiency.

Think about it..... If the full volume wort is at 1050, in a single run-off, the wort left in the grain after draining is at 1050.
If you do a double equal run-off, the first runnings will say be at 1070 & on your second run-off at 1030 (approx theoretical figures, as I don't have my notes in front of me) - therefore the wort remaining in the grain is at 1030
This equals greater efficiency into your kettle.

If you have an explanation to why you believe it's the other way around I'd be keen to hear it.

Cheers Ross


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## MarkBastard

Is there any chance the wort in the grain is actually at a higher SG than the wort that surrounded it?

I've always thought it'd make sense if the wort sticking to the grain or soaked into the grain would have a higher sugar content if anything, even if not by much.

So in a BIAB at 1.050 the wort you squeeze out of the bag may be 1.060 SG.

Someone with a refractometer want to test this?


----------



## Ross

Mark^Bastard said:


> Is there any chance the wort in the grain is actually at a higher SG than the wort that surrounded it?
> 
> I've always thought it'd make sense if the wort sticking to the grain or soaked into the grain would have a higher sugar content if anything, even if not by much.
> 
> So in a BIAB at 1.050 the wort you squeeze out of the bag may be 1.060 SG.
> 
> Someone with a refractometer want to test this?




Mark,

that's one of the main reasons for lifting the temp for a mash out. a well stirred mash at 78c will be pretty consistant - Don't forget, someone batch sparging can press their grain bed just as easily as squeezing a bag (if not easier), so as I said, all things being equal, a double run-off should always give better efficiency.

Again though, don't get hung up on efficiency, BIAB is about simplicity, if you want maximum extraction you'll need to fly sparge or squeeze every last drop of wort from your grain.

Cheers Ross


----------



## PistolPatch

Howdy Ross . My figures actually don't even include a dunk sparge - it is simply a full-volume mash raised to mash out temperature and the bag drained until the boil starts.

I thought my explanations were pretty clear above and the link I gave to the science is well-written. Sorry if I have missed something but I can't write any clearer or in more detail than I have.

I'm not too sure of your 1.070 versus 1.030 thing. If I drain 2/3rds of my wort at 1030 and only a 1/3 at 1070 my average is going to be closer to 1.030 than 1.070 right? Also a run-off of 1.030 does not necessarily mean the entire bed is at 1.030. These things are never even.

What would be great would be if more figures were contributed on all this stuff. We had some figures rolling in on BIAB for a while which was great. I have never seen a collection of traditional figures which is a shame. More figures would be nice. At the moment we can only rely on the few people who have done both BIAB and traditional brewing as well as good old Briggs .

Spot!
Pat


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## Thirsty Boy

Ross said:


> Sorry Pat, but i don't believe this statement is not correct. Efficiency with a single dunk sparge cannont give better efficiency than a double run-off batch sparge, all things being equal.
> I brew both both ways with my current RIMS unit, & the single full volume mash consistantly gives over 10% lower efficiency.
> 
> Think about it..... If the full volume wort is at 1050, in a single run-off, the wort left in the grain after draining is at 1050.
> If you do a double equal run-off, the first runnings will say be at 1070 & on your second run-off at 1030 (approx theoretical figures, as I don't have my notes in front of me) - therefore the wort remaining in the grain is at 1030
> This equals greater efficiency into your kettle.
> 
> If you have an explanation to why you believe it's the other way around I'd be keen to hear it.
> 
> Cheers Ross




Its mainly about deadspace Ross - and about the amount of liquor lost to the spent grain. If you leave 1L/kg behind in a mash tun - then by leaving only 0.5L/kg behind in a bag - the wort trapped can be anywhere up to twice as strong before you break even. And thats what it does... pretty much break even. And then where BIAB might nudge ahead... is with any deadspace in your tun.

I did some experiments on gravity left behind in my mash tun vs gravity left behind in a BIAB bag and it turned out that with a 2 run-off batch sparge, the gravity of the wort "lost" was about 0.333 x the gravity of the wort in the kettle. The gravity trapped in a BIAB bag is of course equal to that of the wort in the kettle.

So which is better depends on a combination of your deadspace and your actual kettle gravity. I translated that to KG of grain used, plugged in the numbers and came up with a graph. This is the theoretical minimum % of the sugars you create, that you must lose to spent grain and deadspace. BIAB wins for a little while.. then it loses as the size of your grist goes up.

This doesn't take into account the other things that Pat mentioned (L:G ratio, sparging temp and raising to a mashout) - which I think are true to enough of an extent to make a noticeable difference. In _my_ experience, BIAB efficiencies aren't really better than batch efficiencies, a little perhaps at lower gravities - but they also aren't worse until your anticipated OG starts to get fairly high.

Anyway - here's the graph.

View attachment BIAB_vs_Batch._Sugar_extracton.xls


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## boobiedazzler

Thirsty Boy said:


> Well that make a lot of sense - in your instance its because you have a different material than the normal one, which makes your bag behave differently. So you get a different experience. The normal voile recommended for BIAB does drain the majority of free liquid almost immediately - with liquid draining from the grain being the rate limiting step.



What is 'normal' ? I have purchased two lots of poly voile from spotlight, ages ago for my partials and now for the full grain bill. They both behaved in the same manner, in that it would drain a lot after hanging, but there is at least another litre of wort to be pulled with a moderate squeeze. I have also seen a commercial bag that had a looser weave than the spotlight material, but not draining. I personally dont think that the difference in voile material is the culprit in holding back the juices. Wet, pourous cereal is the culprit ! How many parts of a micron is hot liquidified sugar ? 

I am with Mark in thinking that the squuezed out wort is probably a higher OG. Though trying to apply any scientific reasoning to it is not within my tipsy capability right now  I will borrow a refractometer next time and see what the outcome is.


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## Thirsty Boy

well - to be brutally honest about it - normal is when it behaves in the way that the guide says it will behave. If it doesn't, then its not normal and you have potentially bought the wrong stuff.

The "standing liquid" should drain almost immediately, this may well depend on the material you choose. The remaining liquid will drain over a period of time and as you suggest, the rate at which it does will depend in the composition of the grist. No one is debating that a squeeze will yield more liquid than not squeezing.. it will, no matter what liquid you choose.

Mark described a situation in which his bag was retaining the free or standing liquid - that's not normal. 

Here's how it works on my BIAB rig and worked on the other 3 BIAB systems I have brewed on or seen being brewed on.

The vast majority of free liquid should fall instantly out of the bag and the rest should be gone in seconds. Then over the next 10 or 15 minutes the rest of the liquid will drain out of the trapped grain... after its down to an occasional drip, you give it a light squeeze and that'll give you 0.5-1L of extra

As Ross said - if you have stirred your brew the way you should.. then the gravity of teh wort coming out of the grain will not be noticably different to the gravity of the main liquid - if things are too hot, or your pH is too high, then perhaps squeezing too hard might extract excessive tannins and that would give a little increase.. so if the gravity is any higher in your squeezed liquor.. I would be concerned and not squeeze anymore.


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## boobiedazzler

What guide? 

There isnt an MSDS available on Spotlight's Swiss Voile. 

BIAB tutorials are only written with any given author's experience in mind. 

For the record, that old PLU for the product that was floating around - Spotlight have changed their codes, according to the girl at my local outlet. Not to be found on their database. 

I know you dont see much in the the sparging addition, but conversly Im sure you have elsewhere advocated adding extra water to the boil. So I have taken both elements and decided to use post-sparge water filtered through drained/squeezed grain, and will continue to refine the tecnique, thinking of an old shower rose hanging inside the drawn up bag, and a funnel in which hot water can be poured. The resulting liqor will be the added water. 

Of course this is getting away from the keep-it-simple-stupid beauty of BIAB, but to the naysayers I say why not complicate it a bit, there's plenty of downtime between steps if the brewer wants to keep things brew-related. If it only contributes an extra point of gravity, its still more efficient use of the potential yields.


----------



## boobiedazzler

My bag runs solid for at least a minute, and continues to stream slightly for another minute. Maybe I have the wrong material, but I still reckon it's ONLY about the retention properties of the grain. 

Just a thought. The compaction of the grain when you draw the bag up for hoisting is sure to limit the flow of liqor. What do you think of the idea of a bag that is hoised but not drawn in at the top seam, perhaps four eyelets that would take a four-pronged steel hook to elevate the grain bed. You could then also 'fluff' the cereal easily, allowing a free flowing escape for the liquid.


----------



## Ross

Thirsty Boy said:


> Its mainly about deadspace Ross - and about the amount of liquor lost to the spent grain. If you leave 1L/kg behind in a mash tun - then by leaving only 0.5L/kg behind in a bag - the wort trapped can be anywhere up to twice as strong before you break even. And thats what it does... pretty much break even. And then where BIAB might nudge ahead... is with any deadspace in your tun.



As I said, a double batch sparge gives better efficiency ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL. If you squeeze the bag & get more liquor then yes you may get better efficiency, but it's equally easy to press your grain bed in a traditional set up. Likewise with dead space, I get zero dead space with my mash tun. As I pointed out, I've been doing the exact same brews on my new rig double sparging & full volume mashing with single sparge - Here all things are equal & the difference in efficiency is large EVERY TIME. Sorry but anyone claiming that a single flood sparge increases efficiency is just dead wrong!

For the record I've elected to go for a single flood sparge on my system as I find the convenience far out weighs the loss of gravity points, I've long since given up chasing efficiency points.

Cheers Ross


----------



## PistolPatch

Ross said:


> I find the convenience far out weighs the loss of gravity points, I've long since given up chasing efficiency points.
> 
> Cheers Ross



Ha! We are finally in agreement Rosscoe ! That is the most important point. Arguing about efficiency detracts the new brewer from what they should be chasing which is simply two things - a great recipe and a great brewing method. Efficiency is a bullshit argument. Whilst I maintain that BIAB is very efficient, I would much prefer readers here looking for great recipes.

Ross, in those pioneering days when I had made a hundred posts here and rang you and asked if you thought BIAB could work and you said, "I can't see any reason why not," I really appreciated it. You even said I could try it with a pillow slip but then had the far better suggestion of using polyester curtain material. Thank God I didn't try the former .

What the new brewer should realise is that regardless of how right you or I think we are, (you think 3 vessel brewing always gives you a better quality beer whilst I think BIAB will, in most cases, actually give you a better quality beer,) a great all-grain recipe will _*always*_ give you a great beer. Your Schwartzbier recipe, the first all-grain I ever brewed, is a fine example of this.

You can brew that beer with lager or ale yeast. You can stuff your mash temps up. You can even brew a low alcohol version of it as I did several times (don't know of anyone else who did that???) and still get an outstanding beer. That recipe is a robust recipe and one that I still brew today with only minor adjustments. You should be proud of that. The fact that I was the first to brew it with an ale yeast (US-56) is a testament to you providing me with a recipe that we now know actually tastes a tad better when brewed with the ale yeast. Recipes are the key to great all-grain.

We can argue all day about technicalities but a great recipe should be the Holy Grail of all brewers. This is the message we should be spreading and you Ross, should be proud that your Schwartzbier recipe (with slight variations) has a permanent place amongst my 8 taps. Regardless of how badly I sometimes brew it, it is always well received.

Anyone who bags the science of BIAB has a lot to refute. It is at minimum, a great brewing method. I actually think it is a better brewing method than batch or fly sparging for obvious reasons unless your sole concern is efficiency in which case, fly-sparging will win. If your primary aim is to make great beer for $9 a carton rather than $10 a carton then by all means, let's argue about efficiency until the cows come home!!!!

I'd prefer, in this thread, that we talk about great recipes such as your Scwartz, Ross or the ways in which BIAB offers superior control over mash temperature and efficiency than non-pumped traditional does.

[To Be Continued: AHB word count has jumped in. Continued a few posts below...]


----------



## Cocko

PistolPatch said:


> Sorry I and others have not worked ourselves entirely to the bone to enlighten you and give you an idiot's guide to BIAB. I am amazed at how stupid and inconsiderate myself and others are.
> 
> On behalf of all of us who have made BIAB work over a period of five years and written a heap with sweat on our brow, thank you for letting us know that idiots will never read what we have written. We can't believe you haven't even read or comprehended post #1 of this thread but what do we know?
> 
> If you had shown some respect, I would have spent some time answering your questions - an hour of my time at least and you would have had an instant but considered answer.
> 
> My goodness and my apologies,
> Pat



GREATEST post of all time... easy.

PP at his best.. and its short!


----------



## PistolPatch

Sorry cocko, my computer is playing up so I have had enough trouble finishing the below let alone worrying about the above post you managed to save. Good on ya!

Hope the below turns out as I intended...

Continued from a few posts above...

Even if you want to go a pump, BIAB will almost always serve you better.

The guts of it all is that Ross is trying to say a 3 Vessel system is better. I think a lot, and I have also outlined very sensible, factually-based reasons why I think BIAB is better - my last post on this (#1772) should be enough to get anyone thinking. I reckon any brewer reading or wondering about this who wants to establish the credibility of any poster to this thread will really need to read it in its entirety or, alternatively, just stop for a second and think for themselves. There's a lot of nonsense that goes on here. One example is that you can buy hops for half the price seen advertised by any sponsor here. (You need to buy a 500gram minimum though sorry . That retailer has never tried to "invade" AHB, they have just done informative posts - see this site and ask them for a price list - half what you pay!)

If you want to argue instead of brew well then, of course, just post away. Here is as good a thread as any other  

If you want to brew well and learn then reading this whole thread will get you familiar with some enthusiastic and honest brewers. Like a good recipe, they are very hard to find. You'll find some very quiet, skilled brewers who have contributed here. They don't post much anymore, if at all, but they are still brewing. Why not send them a PM? Ask them if they still BIAB and why? The worst you will get is no answer.

Cheers,
Pat


----------



## PistolPatch

*[Took so long to edit and re-write the above post I ran out of the time limit. The below is my final crack.]*

Sorry cocko, my computer is playing up so I have had enough trouble finishing the below let alone worrying about the above post you managed to save. Good on ya!

Hope the below turns out as I intended...

Continued from a few posts above...

Even if you want to go a pump, BIAB will almost always serve you better.

The guts of it all is that Ross is trying to say a 3 Vessel system is better. I think a lot, and I have also outlined very sensible, factually-based reasons why I think BIAB is better - my last post on this (#1772) should be enough to get anyone thinking. I reckon any brewer reading or wondering about this who wants to establish the credibility of any poster to this thread will really need to read it in its entirety or, alternatively, just stop for a second and think for themselves. There's a lot of nonsense that goes on here. One example is that you can buy hops for half the price seen advertised by any sponsor here. (You need to buy a 500gram minimum though sorry . That retailer has never tried to "invade" AHB, they have just done informative posts - see this site and ask them for a price list - half what you pay!) But any thread they have started here has failed.

If you want to argue instead of brew well then, of course, just post away. Here is as good a thread as any other  

If you want to brew well and learn then reading this whole thread will get you familiar with some enthusiastic and honest brewers. You will pick up some gems like in two paras above. Like a good recipe, they are very hard to find. You'll also find some very quiet, skilled and unpretentious brewers who have contributed here. They don't post much anymore, if at all, but they are still brewing. Why not send them a PM? Ask them if they still BIAB and why? The worst you will get is no answer.

Just stop and think for a second is my advice.

Cheers,
Pat


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Ross said:


> As I said, a double batch sparge gives better efficiency ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL. If you squeeze the bag & get more liquor then yes you may get better efficiency, but it's equally easy to press your grain bed in a traditional set up. Likewise with dead space, I get zero dead space with my mash tun. As I pointed out, I've been doing the exact same brews on my new rig double sparging & full volume mashing with single sparge - Here all things are equal & the difference in efficiency is large EVERY TIME. Sorry but anyone claiming that a single flood sparge increases efficiency is just dead wrong!
> 
> For the record I've elected to go for a single flood sparge on my system as I find the convenience far out weighs the loss of gravity points, I've long since given up chasing efficiency points.
> 
> Cheers Ross



But its pretty much part and parcel of the whole technique Ross - allow the bag to drain, give it a light squeeze... that's been pretty common BIAB advice from nearly day one. And even if you don't squeeze - you still lose less liquor to spent grain. Besides, we're not talking about what people _might_ do, we're talking about what people _do_ do. And I don't know any batch spargers who do squeeze their grain bed... but I know a numbers of BIAB brewers who squeeze their bags.

Anyway, we don't have any actual disagreement - I posted the graph (which I made after actually experimenting to see how this works, in order to answer precisely this question) and it agrees with your results. For any actually likely grist bill... if you _don't_ have any deadspace (as you don't) , a two drain batch sparge _will_ be better than a no-sparge BIAB at removing any sugars created. But if you do have any deadspace, _and most mash tuns do_, then the story isn't the same and up to a point a BIAB will be more efficient.

Oh - and I ran both double and single run-off (full volume) sparges through my mash tun system for quite a while and didn't get the same difference in results you do - my average efficiency into the kettle for double run-off sparges was 78% - and it only dropped to 75% for the no-sparge/full volume brews. So all things being equal.... the difference was only a few % on my system.

The main thing - isn't which is better or which is worse - that doesn't matter. Only that they are roughly comparable. And that they are. So people can take whichever technique they want to use and be confident that there isn't another way out there that is significantly better and that they are somehow ripping themselves off.

Of course - the elephant in the room is that there _is_ another way out there that's significantly more efficient. Fly sparging... but who the hell wants to do that? (well me actually... but I shall say no more on the subject)


----------



## Thirsty Boy

boobiedazzler said:


> My bag runs solid for at least a minute, and continues to stream slightly for another minute. Maybe I have the wrong material, but I still reckon it's ONLY about the retention properties of the grain.
> 
> Just a thought. The compaction of the grain when you draw the bag up for hoisting is sure to limit the flow of liqor. What do you think of the idea of a bag that is hoised but not drawn in at the top seam, perhaps four eyelets that would take a four-pronged steel hook to elevate the grain bed. You could then also 'fluff' the cereal easily, allowing a free flowing escape for the liquid.



You're not actually reading what I am writing - YES, the bag will flow for a minute or so.. and YES that is because of the liquid being trapped in the grain and not because of the material. That's exactly what I was saying in my last post about this... and the one before.

But if the FREE LIQUID - does not fall out almost immediately. Then you probably have the wrong material. The free liquid being trapped is what makes bags unmanageably heavy - and the sort of material that causes that - makes bags take extensive amounts of time to drain, or even to not drain at all without needing to squeeze the hell out of them.

In a proper BIAB bag - it should be the grain bed composition which determines the rate at which the bag drains... If it is instead teh material, then either something really weird is happening, or you have the wrong sort of material.

Your bag on the other hand sounds like it is behaving perfectly normally... and therefore any of the normal solutions offered in this thread should work just fine for you.



> What Guide?



That would be the guide posted on the first page of this thread.. which is conveniently titled "A Guide to All Grain Brewing in a Bag, Downloadable guide to BIAB" specifically in order to give you a hint that such a guide might exist. And the discussions in the thread that follows.

Within that thread there are a number of discussions about how the bags should perform, about how bags, bag material and bag shape effect BIAB and about the various permutations of bags that people have tried and why.

You might also like to go to the excellent http://www.biabrewer.info/ site where you will find updated and seriously expanded and comprehensive versions of the guide along with targeted discussions about BIAB and most of its alternatives and variations.

You have to put up with it being an area where Pat is free to roam at will - but in his natural environment the big lug has a weird and lumpy beauty all of his own. Kind of like a wildebeest - ugly as sin but magnificent nonetheless.  I highly recommend a visit there.


----------



## katzke

It is not what is better. It is about brewing.

BIAB is supposed to be easy. Some people always seem to want to make it more difficult then it is. Some just like to experiment and say so. Some have no idea what they are doing and so try to make it more like multi vessel brewing then ask why it is not working the way we say it does.

I do not mind people that want to experiment and say so. That is how we got instructions for brewing BIAB in a small kettle.

The problem is when people start to say BIAB does not work as described and try to tell people they need to do this or that. Or that BIAB is a good start but real brewers use mash tuns. They are the ones that I will correct.

So if you are trying to find out about BIAB then ignore all the arguing about if this or that is better. Go back to the beginning instructions and follow them to the letter. You will make good beer. I know because that is what I did. It worked then and it is still working now.

Sorry can not tell you where the step by step instructions are any longer. It was a 3 day read when I started to look, I am sure it is up to a week or more now. I think you can find the new and improved set on baibrewer.info.


----------



## PistolPatch

I love all this theoretical stuff 

For what it is worth, of the three double-batches I submitted to the figures we were collecting last year, they yielded slightly higher than the single batches. This of course makes no sense but they were the figures that I and one other person checked. I think I can scrape up some figures from the last three double-batches I did with another brewer. If not, I'll be sure to do so on the next lot.

The point is that one or two brews do not tell a story. If they did, I could tell you that double-batching is 2% more efficient than a single batch even with 15lts of top up water. Of course, this is not so. Many brews need to be done with the same equipment to start getting reliable averages.

Thirsty, it was a shame you never contributed to that spreadsheet we had going last year. It yielded some good figures. Next four or five brews you do, if you have time to take the three measures we were asking for, please post them here or send them to me and I'll add them to the spreadsheet. Same goes for any other BIABrewers.

The more figures the merrier!


Pat


----------



## Thirsty Boy

PistolPatch said:


> I love all this theoretical stuff
> 
> For what it is worth, of the three double-batches I submitted to the figures we were collecting last year, they yielded slightly higher than the single batches. This of course makes no sense but they were the figures that I and one other person checked. I think I can scrape up some figures from the last three double-batches I did with another brewer. If not, I'll be sure to do so on the next lot.
> 
> The point is that one or two brews do not tell a story. If they did, I could tell you that double-batching is 2% more efficient than a single batch even with 15lts of top up water. Of course, this is not so. Many brews need to be done with the same equipment to start getting reliable averages.
> 
> Thirsty, it was a shame you never contributed to that spreadsheet we had going last year. It yielded some good figures. Next four or five brews you do, if you have time to take the three measures we were asking for, please post them here or send them to me and I'll add them to the spreadsheet. Same goes for any other BIABrewers.
> 
> The more figures the merrier!
> 
> 
> Pat



I'm sorry too Pat - you ended up churning out that excellent spreadsheet as a result. I was just trying to save you from yourself though... you needed some sleep. I don't do much BIAB these days... a very occasional one to test a theory or to do a gluten free brew. Aside from that its the odd brew at Spill's place and demos @ G&G.

BIAB was only ever really a theoretical exercise for me... I've always been a mash tun brewer at heart. Nowadays I've pretty much tried out all the variations of BIAB, worked out that none of them are any better than the original no-frills version; and called it a day. I'll get back into it when someone dreams up something new to try out.

Mind you, I have a mild to brew in the near future... maybe I'll bust out the bag for that? 3kg of grain looks a little forlorn sitting in the bottom of my 50L mash tun. So much more cosy in the small BIAB rig.


----------



## katzke

PistolPatch said:


> I love all this theoretical stuff
> 
> For what it is worth, of the three double-batches I submitted to the figures we were collecting last year, they yielded slightly higher than the single batches. This of course makes no sense but they were the figures that I and one other person checked. I think I can scrape up some figures from the last three double-batches I did with another brewer. If not, I'll be sure to do so on the next lot.
> 
> 
> Pat



Pat, cant you figure out why double batches are more efficient?

They have twice the grain so have twice the enzymes so must be twice as efficient. You only got 2.5 % so must be doing something wrong.

On a serious note. I bet it has to do with the double batch having a stable temperature during the mash. Stability is the one problem all home brewers have. Our small batch sizes are much harder to regulate then factory brewing. I am sure there are other technical reasons based on wort depth and more trivial brewing science no has discovered yet.

That or 2.5% is with in the statistical allowance for error. Things like hot wort expand and reading errors on refractometers and hydrometers.

One reason why I am happy if my gravity is with in a few points of predicted.


----------



## PistolPatch

Thirsty Boy said:


> I was just trying to save you from yourself though... you needed some sleep.


LOL! . And yep, 3kgs will look lonely. Save it for October 28th .



katzke said:


> On a serious note. I bet it has to do with the double batch having a stable temperature during the mash.



LOL katz . It is great you have offered a serious hypothesis to this though. When I wrote my last post (part 1 I think) I was actually tempted to write, "For all we know, maybe double batches are more efficient," but I didn't even have a hypothesis to work from. Good on you!

Until we collect a lot more figures though we don't really know anything and collecting figures gets harder all the time. For example, I now nearly always do two double-batches with a fellow brewer and split the proceeds - it is rare for me now to do a single and double at the same time. In the interests of science, I'll have to start finding excuses to.

All this certainly keeps the brain wondering.

Thanks Tom and you Dan, Ross etc...

Pat


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## bradk

Well, just finished putting down my first BIAB. It has been a long time coming. I have spent a few months getting everything ready and then finding time!

I dont think it boiled off enough, but we will see. Hopefully I will have a good report in a few weeks!


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## bradk

Brad_ said:


> Well, just finished putting down my first BIAB. It has been a long time coming. I have spent a few months getting everything ready and then finding time!
> 
> I dont think it boiled off enough, but we will see. Hopefully I will have a good report in a few weeks!



I cant see how to edit my post.. is it possible?

Anyway, what I wanted to add was that the OG of the wort is 1052. Bit heavier than what I imagined from the 5.5KG grain bill. Just waiting for it to cool and might add a bit of water to bring it down a tad. Smells fantastic though!

Brad


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## Phoney

Good one Brad! Welcome to the club :icon_cheers:

If your OG is higher than you expected, and you find that your volume in your fermenter is down by a litre or three - it's no big deal, you can always top up with water get your volume right and your OG down to where it should be.


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## manticle

Brad_ said:


> I cant see how to edit my post.. is it possible?



The edit function has a limited timeframe and disappears after 30 minutes or so.


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## malbur

Brad_ said:


> Anyway, what I wanted to add was that the OG of the wort is 1052. Bit heavier than what I imagined from the 5.5KG grain bill. Just waiting for it to cool and might add a bit of water to bring it down a tad. Smells fantastic though!
> 
> Brad



Keep up the great work Brad,nothing wrong with that, High OG is better than low OG a bit of water and it will be fine :beer: 
malbur


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## PistolPatch

Brad_ said:


> Well, just finished putting down my first BIAB. It has been a long time coming. I have spent a few months getting everything ready and then finding time!
> 
> I dont think it boiled off enough, but we will see. Hopefully I will have a good report in a few weeks!



Good on you Brad,

Don't get too hung up on the figures. There are a heap of things that can go wrong there. If you are BIABing well and by some miracle have an accurate/average hydrometer, you should be nearing 80% on your pre or post-boil efficiency. Your figs are fine and the beer will taste great.

All the best,
Pat


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Another recent convert to AG via BIAB.

I just bottled a second batch last night - it was only a 9L batch. I do the 22L batches as quaffers and 9L to experiment and have some (more) fun.

The first batch I did was a balls up. Efficiency was poor, but (from drinking the non-conditioned wort) that it will still turn out okay and well drinkable.

The second batch (well actually I had a third batch running concurrently as well, but I haven't yet bottled it), was a 9L batch. Stupid me forgot to write down the OG, but off memory it was either 1.055 or 1.050 - meaning, for me, according to my calcs in qbrew - an efficiency of no less than 71% and possibly up to 78% (off memory, I don't have it in front of me).

The accountant in me thinks of the amortisation of the cost of a full 3V system over the life of the number of beers produced (and the time it will take to recover the cost) vs the extra grain I need to account for marginally reduced efficiency (and its cost). BIAB wins hands down.

As for Ross' support for 3V - good on him! As a retailer, if I get or build a 3V system, I'm going to buy less grain from him. He suffers as a result. But his honest love of brewing is such that he will still recommend what he thinks is the better method, regardless of economic impact to himself. That says volumes about the man.

Incidentally, I used a nottingham yeast in the above batch of beer and it attenuated down to 1.002 - no cane sugar, just pure malt. That equates to 6.3% to 6.96% - good, if unexpected, result. I don't think amber/red ales are supposed to be that strong. :icon_drunk:


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Oh, and to increase my efficiency, I nicked the missus pasta pot.

I plonked the bag in it, put my thick, black manly gloves on and punched/squeezed it a little. Then poured a couple of litres of hot water in several doses over and squeezed it each time.

After trying to have someone (me) hold the bag up last time and someone else (fellow brewer) squeeze it and then plonk into a bucket per Nick JD's method, I found this considerably easier and less arm-work. And the increase in efficiency spoke volumes both for 9L and 22L batches.

I strongly recommend anyone who has one of these pasta strainer pots (ours is a cheapie and about 9L in volume), to use this. It cuts down the manual labour and does really well in efficiency.


----------



## barneyb

PistolPatch said:


> Don't get too hung up on the figures. There are a heap of things that can go wrong there. If you are BIABing well and by some miracle have an accurate/average hydrometer, you should be nearing 80% on your pre or post-boil efficiency. Your figs are fine and the beer will taste great.


Yeesh, I've put down 2 BIABs the the best efficiency I got was ~65% (bit less I think actually). So unless the markings on my Coopers fermenter is waaay off, or my thermometer isn't properly calibrated (I tested it and it hit 100C right when my pot started boiling), it isn't necessarily _that_ easy to get good efficiency when you start out BIAB. 

Or maybe I'm missing a few brain cells. :blink:


----------



## felten

I'm 2 full sized BIAB brews in so far and both ~80% efficiency at the end of the boil, brewhouse efficiency is probably around 70%.

A thermometer that is accurate at 100c might not necessarily be accurate at mash temps (maybe), you could try using a few different thermometers and see how it goes. Temp is just one of a few factors that could affect efficiency, others are pH, crush, time spent mashing, including a mashout + stir at the end, and a few others. I was just brushing up on this article on braukaiser, http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/U...ding_Efficiency the "what affects conversion efficiency" is a good read.


----------



## katzke

felten said:


> I'm 2 full sized BIAB brews in so far and both ~80% efficiency at the end of the boil, brewhouse efficiency is probably around 70%.
> 
> A thermometer that is accurate at 100c might not necessarily be accurate at mash temps (maybe), you could try using a few different thermometers and see how it goes. Temp is just one of a few factors that could affect efficiency, others are pH, crush, time spent mashing, including a mashout + stir at the end, and a few others. I was just brushing up on this article on braukaiser, http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/U...ding_Efficiency the "what affects conversion efficiency" is a good read.



First is the previous poster may be missing a few brain cells. He asked.

Second is I agree with you. If you follow the rules of BIAB and dont mess with them it works wonders. I have my software set to 75% and get close. Sometimes high and sometimes low.

I can only say that I disagree with your numbers. Brewhouse efficiency in the 60s is normal if a brewer is honest. That includes losses to trub and hops in the kettle or what you put in the fermentor. I actually think on the terms of total brewery efficiency and that includes all looses from the grain to the glass.

Efficiency is a funny number and it all depends on how and when you measure it. I have said before I do not care what the efficiency is when you give me a recipe. Just give me a grain bill and hop schedule for a final volume and any other additions. Include the original gravity and final gravity. If you give expected IBUs that helps. I can figure what I need to make a similar recipe on my system with less or more beer in the end.


----------



## felten

Actually you are probably right about the brewhouse efficiency, I was just going off what beersmith gave me at the time.

edit: I was just reading this recent presentation for the NHC on braukaiser and it mentions that no sparge, thin mashes, can create higher quality wort. I don't think that was brought up earlier in the thread? maybe it was and I missed it, very interesting anyway.


----------



## aussiechucka

I have just done my first AG. Trying replicate a Mexican Dark beer. Bohemia obscura. After months of reading through this thread and the ag for 30 bucks, I finally had the gear ready and the knowledge to give it a go. So just would like to say thanks for all the info and can't wait to bottle and drink. Will be a sometime conditioning before I do that so hopefully all turns out OK.
Here is the link for the recipe, Something different I think. Bohemia Del Chucka

Thanks agin for all the info
Aussiechucka :beer:


----------



## PistolPatch

barneyb said:


> Yeesh, I've put down 2 BIABs the the best efficiency I got was ~65% (bit less I think actually). So unless the markings on my Coopers fermenter is waaay off, or my thermometer isn't properly calibrated (I tested it and it hit 100C right when my pot started boiling), it isn't necessarily _that_ easy to get good efficiency when you start out BIAB.
> 
> Or maybe I'm missing a few brain cells. :blink:



How you doing barney ,

I saw your post the other day and made a note to reply to it. 'scuse the delay.

When I saw your 65% I immediately thought that you are measuring efficiency into fermenter. Your comment re markings on the Coopers fermenter confirmed this.

65% efficiency "into fermenter" is perfectly fine. Most brewers, when quoting efficiency figures, do not define which efficiency figure they are quoting. Most though, will be quoting their efficiency "into the kettle" or their efficiency "post-boil." These two should theoretically be the same but on average, aren't. On the figures I have collected here that other brewers have kindly provided...

*Efficiency into Fermenter is approximately 10% lower than than post-boil efficiency which in, turn is about 2.5% less than efficiency into the kettle*.

So, your efficiencies are probably 65%, 75% or 77.5% depending on which one you you want to quote.

Have a read of this post. I wrote it a few weeks ago but it will give you a bit more detail on the above and hopefully stop you thinking you are doing something wrong . If you investigate the links contained in that post that include spreadsheets and calculators, I think you will gain a very good understanding of efficiency. Allow some time to relax and read them over a few beers - don't race through them otherwise only a tad of the information will sink in.

You are not missing any brain cells 
Pat


----------



## PistolPatch

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Another recent convert to AG via BIAB.
> 
> I just bottled a second batch last night - it was only a 9L batch. I do the 22L batches as quaffers and 9L to experiment and have some (more) fun.
> 
> The first batch I did was a balls up. Efficiency was poor, but (from drinking the non-conditioned wort) that it will still turn out okay and well drinkable.



Congratulations to you LRG :icon_cheers:,

Don't trust your own figures on a single brew!!! You are just like me when I started AGing .

Have a read through my post above. I think if you have the patience to read it and follow its links, you might be able to speed up the process of learning what figures to regard and which ones to disregard. You should _*never*_ trust the results of a single brew. The links etc will explain why.

The basic rule I have come to is that if you can get all the water required for your brew into the kettle, it is not appropriate to sparge*. Those doing mini-BIABs and those doing double-batches in small kettles, depending on volumes, will have to sparge.

The reason I say this is that I brew in large kettles and notice no difference, collected over several brews, between double-batches and single batches as I can fit almost all the water required in my kettle for a double batch. It is very important not to jump to conclusions from a single brew. I know this because I have did it - lol!

*Brewers should be very confident in full-volume mashes and I'll write a tad more on this in my next post which is a reply to felten.

LRG, you are an accountant so I am hoping that you will read what I have asked above and then understand the myriad of reasons why single brews cannot be relied upon as well as the reason why brewing enough to collect reliable averages is of some importance.

Cheers and congratulations again,
Pat


----------



## PistolPatch

felten said:


> I'm 2 full sized BIAB brews in so far and both ~80% efficiency at the end of the boil, brewhouse efficiency is probably around 70%.
> 
> A thermometer that is accurate at 100c might not necessarily be accurate at mash temps (maybe), you could try using a few different thermometers and see how it goes. Temp is just one of a few factors that could affect efficiency, others are pH, crush, time spent mashing, including a mashout + stir at the end, and a few others. I was just brushing up on this article on braukaiser, http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/U...ding_Efficiency the "what affects conversion efficiency" is a good read.



Great post felten and congratulations on your going all-grain. Your figures and advice above are very pleasing to see. You have done very well :super:.

The link you gave in your immediate post above (not the one in the quote above) is an excellent one that was originally supplied by matti I think and that I have shamelessly used since without giving him credit for finding it. It is one of the most sensible links you will find on mash thicknesses and backs up all the figures others have provided me as well as my own personal experience.

People who read and are able to understand that link should feel very confident about BIAB.

One important thing though, whilst BIAB is "no sparge" brewing, it is not the "no sparge" brewing method commonly referred to which will give you much lower efficiency. This is the reason why I call BIAB "full-volume" mashing. "No sparge" brewing, the one that gives low efficiency, only allows about a third of water used to ever contact the grain. BIAB allows 3/3rds (all) the water to contact the grain for the full mash period. No other method does this.

Cheers to you felten,
Pat


----------



## PistolPatch

aussiechucka said:


> I have just done my first AG. Trying replicate a Mexican Dark beer. Bohemia obscura. After months of reading through this thread and the ag for 30 bucks, I finally had the gear ready and the knowledge to give it a go. So just would like to say thanks for all the info and can't wait to bottle and drink. Will be a sometime conditioning before I do that so hopefully all turns out OK.
> Here is the link for the recipe, Something different I think. Bohemia Del Chucka
> 
> Thanks agin for all the info
> Aussiechucka :beer:



And my last post of the night goes to you Aussiechucka .

Well done mate and sorry I can't critique your recipe. I steal all mine from brewers who have the knack of recipe formulation - God bless 'em .

With my limited knowledge of recipes etc, I would say one thing though with lagers and that is, taste a bottle every few weeks / month and slow this down as time goes on if you have the patience. The best beer I have had in my life was a pilsner that Gryphon Brewing gave me. He gave me 6 bottles and I had one every couple of months. The last bottle I had was astounding for me and was totally different from the ones I had before which were fine but not brilliant. I capped that last bottle and drank it over a few days to make sure it was as brilliant as I originally thought.

If you like lagers but want to drink them within a month, brew LloydieP's Krispy Kolsch. It is one of the few beers that have a permanent place on my taps. Yum!

All the best Aussiechucka,
Pat


----------



## RdeVjun

PistolPatch said:


> One important thing though, whilst BIAB is "no sparge" brewing, it is not the "no sparge" brewing method commonly referred to which will give you much lower efficiency. This is the reason why I call BIAB "full-volume" mashing. "No sparge" brewing, the one that gives low efficiency, only allows about a third of water used to ever contact the grain. BIAB allows 3/3rds (all) the water to contact the grain for the full mash period. No other method does this.


Point of order, PP!  One flavour of BIAB is no- sparge, another is not- the 'sparged BIAB', which is common amongst us stove- top BIABers using a 19L stockpot, a regular/ heavier grain bill and post- boil dilution. Sparging a BIAB happens quite a bit, but usually only becomes necessary if mash tun/ kettle volume is less than the brew length.  

I myself have found some fairly respectable efficiencies with sparged BIAB, but I have had the same experience with no- sparge too. Best of both worlds with BIAB, if you want it that is! :icon_cheers:


----------



## PistolPatch

RdeVjun said:


> Point of order, PP!  One flavour of BIAB is no- sparge, another is not- the 'sparged BIAB', which is common amongst us stove- top BIABers using a 19L stockpot, a regular/ heavier grain bill and post- boil dilution. Sparging a BIAB happens quite a bit, but usually only becomes necessary if mash tun/ kettle volume is less than the brew length.
> 
> I myself have found some fairly respectable efficiencies with sparged BIAB, but I have had the same experience with no- sparge too. Best of both worlds with BIAB, if you want it that is! :icon_cheers:



LOL Ralph .

All the terminology can be very confusing. Re-read my post above carefully on what no-sparge really means. BIAB is _*never*_ no-sparge brewing in the old brewing terms.

Rewind a bit me old mate as it is very important for new AG searchers of the internet to understand that if you BIAB but don't rinse (sparge) your grain you are still _*not*_ no-sparge brewing.

This confusion of terminology has lead many a brewer to think that full-volume BIABing leads to lower efficiency whereas the truth is the opposite. See felten's last link above.

We need to develop a new terminology.

I have no easy answers for now apart from stressing that any method of BIAB is _*NOT *_related to the old term of no-sparge brewing!

I hope that I have made this clear. You with me now Ralph? I know it is all very confusing so let me know if my explanations are still not clear enough mate and I'll have another crack at it on the weekend.

Spot ya mate,
Pat


----------



## Cocko

PistolPatch said:


> And my last post of the night goes to you Aussiechucka .
> 
> Pat






PistolPatch said:


> Pat




 Ok, the devils in the detail! :lol: 

Sorry mate... bored is all!


----------



## RdeVjun

PistolPatch said:


> LOL Ralph .
> 
> All the terminology can be very confusing. Re-read my post above carefully on what no-sparge really means. BIAB is _*never*_ no-sparge brewing in the old brewing terms.
> 
> Rewind a bit me old mate as it is very important for new AG searchers of the internet to understand that if you BIAB but don't rinse (sparge) your grain you are still _*not*_ no-sparge brewing.
> 
> This confusion of terminology has lead many a brewer to think that full-volume BIABing leads to lower efficiency whereas the truth is the opposite. See felten's last link above.
> 
> We need to develop a new terminology.
> 
> I have no easy answers for now apart from stressing that any method of BIAB is _*NOT *_related to the old term of no-sparge brewing!
> 
> I hope that I have made this clear. You with me now Ralph? I know it is all very confusing so let me know if my explanations are still not clear enough mate and I'll have another crack at it on the weekend.
> 
> Spot ya mate,
> Pat


Yeah spot ya PP, 100%! A modernised lexicon (and a briefer thread  ) would straighten much of it out, for sure.

Too cross- eyed for now though! (All this damn football that must be watched!)


----------



## barneyb

PistolPatch said:


> How you doing barney ,


Thanks for all the info, very encouraging. I will try and get my samples pre-boil from now on, just gotta get a metal ruler and figure out the volumes of my pot. 

For what its worth I had a sample of my first AG (only 3 weeks in the bottle) and can't believe how good it is already. There is something I can't put my finger on...the body perhaps? Something great anyway! I'm going to bottle my current brew and put down another ASAP!


----------



## aussiechucka

Thanks Pistol Pete
I am not really worried about waiting for the beer to mature. I have had beers when doing kit beers sitting for a year or so and yes they always taste better. My next AG will be a full 20 litre batch. One of Dr smurto but with a change in hops to try to clone a Bombadier. cheers for all the help on the site, all the great ideas have helped me to work out a few things to do with every aspect of brewing and AG. :beer:


----------



## sandjeep457

I tried my first BIAB last week and it all went to plan - well pppp pete's plan anyway, except that the bag I bought really wasn't that porous.
It was a bit like a pillow slip I reckon - it was definitely Polyester Swiss Voile and I got it at Spotlight, but it really did not drain that well.
I had to squeeze the bag to get the water out - it barely dripped on its own accord - and it wasn't the grain stopping it.

I have read from others that the Wort pours out fairly easily - maybe there are different types of Swiss Voille or something ?

any ideas ?

Sandy.


----------



## big_dazza27

sandjeep457 said:


> I tried my first BIAB last week and it all went to plan - well pppp pete's plan anyway, except that the bag I bought really wasn't that porous.
> It was a bit like a pillow slip I reckon - it was definitely Polyester Swiss Voile and I got it at Spotlight, but it really did not drain that well.
> I had to squeeze the bag to get the water out - it barely dripped on its own accord - and it wasn't the grain stopping it.
> 
> I have read from others that the Wort pours out fairly easily - maybe there are different types of Swiss Voille or something ?
> 
> any ideas ?
> 
> Sandy.


How fine was your grain crushed? I've been told that sometimes grain crushed too fine can affect how much wort you get out of the bag.


----------



## sandjeep457

big_dazza27 said:


> How fine was your grain crushed? I've been told that sometimes grain crushed too fine can affect how much wort you get out of the bag.



Ahhh, very very fine - I used my Sunbean coffee grinder. I thought I would get better efficiency that way.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

can you see through that fabric - the correct stuff is less like a pillowcase and more like a pair of stockings. Laying a piece over the newspaper should present you with no difficulties reading said paper. Look at it under a magnifying glass. Fine mesh - more space than thread. Try it with some plain water - plain water should fall through completely without resistance. Line a colander with it... if you are able to fill the colander with water at all... not the right stuff.

If it _is_ the right stuff - then look to your crush. If you go berserk and grind the grain completely to flour... then its gonna take a while to drain out. The more "chunks" the faster the drain.


----------



## sandjeep457

thanks Thirsty -I'll try the water test tonight when I get home from work.

It was definitely marked Swiss Voile - 100& Polyester, from Spotlight. Is this the correct stuff ???


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

sandjeep457 said:


> thanks Thirsty -I'll try the water test tonight when I get home from work.
> 
> It was definitely marked Swiss Voile - 100& Polyester, from Spotlight. Is this the correct stuff ???



Yes. Probably. Maybe. No.  

This is what I use:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Chkml...feat=directlink

I spent a bit of time in Spotlight a couple of weeks ago looking at all the different voile types. They are all quite similarish (*normal caveats apply) and would likely work if all other things are equal. The difference (apart from the thread they're made of) is the size of the weave and if they have some pattern woven in such as Snow Voile does. I would happily use any of the voiles made of polyester or nylon if I couldn't get the exact one I want, but would remain on the lookout for the exact one I want.


----------



## sandjeep457

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> Yes. Probably. Maybe. No.
> 
> .



Thanks - nice precise answer !!! 

My Swiss Voile Looks nothing like your Swiss Voille. Mine could be used as a Pillow Case - no holes at all. I'll head off to Spotlight again and see if I can find something like yours. I guess the Polyester bit is so that it can handle the 70 degrees C ???


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

sandjeep457 said:


> I guess the Polyester bit is so that it can handle the 70 degrees C ???



I can't speak to why it was originally chosen by the Ancients, but I think it a good choice for a bunch of reasons. It doesn't love caustic soda, but that substance should be reserved for making soap and removing unsightly corpses.


----------



## Nick JD

Years and years ago I used to use peel ply (fiberglassing polyester) for steeping spec grains. Works fine.


----------



## sandjeep457

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> I can't speak to why it was originally chosen by the Ancients, but I think it a good choice for a bunch of reasons. It doesn't love caustic soda, but that substance should be reserved for making soap and removing unsightly corpses.



Yeah, I certaily don't want to offend the Ancients, would be bad Karma.

I think us brewers are an inventive lot and always want to change everything- even when brewing the well renonwed Dr Smurto's Ale most of us seem to want to change something - even though the original is perfect as it is !

Anyway, my Swiss Voile was similar to a thin pillowcase - so I've wandered up to Spotlight and had a look around again. Definitely is Swiss Voille what I have and it is not seethrough nor have any holes in it. 
So (be nice to me Ancients), I bought some Muslin. 
The bloke serving me said it was the stuff they used on masterchef so is suitable for boiling water. Looks very thin though.

So I'll be trying this tomorrow.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

second wrong choice - sorry. Muslin will work to a degree and for a while, but it is not the best choice and it is not gold standard option.

Don't worry about the name of the damn stuff - read the descriptions. Look at the pictures. Seriously... how much detail do people need?? It was abundantly clear to me what was required within about 30 seconds of going to the curtain fabric section at spotlight. What I bought was not _called_ voil, I did not _ask_ for voile - it was... well it was just bloody obvious from actually reading and paying attention to what people had told me to look for.

A 100% polyester - see through - neutrally coloured - very fine mesh of _about_ the same level of fineness as a ladies nylon stocking. You will most likely find it in the section with the other curtain sheers.

I can think of about 10 other things (including muslin) that will or should work in some way shape or form. One guy in teh US did it with wedding dress material, I've done one with an actual pillowcase; Hell, I have heard a story that someone did a BIAB with a pair of pajama bottoms with teh legs tied closed..... but the fabric we recommend and describe again and again and again in nauseating detail... is the stuff that we _know_ works well, that we _know_ lasts well, that we _know_ cleans well and that we _know_ you can brew good beer using.

here is a link to a very large picture of a BIAB bag - the one that Gryphon Brewing sells. And buying a bag off him is always an option.

http://www.gryphonbrewing.com.au/store/images/100_1307.jpg

So - One more time for clarity. 100% polyester - see through - neutrally coloured - very fine mesh of _about_ the same level of fineness as a ladies nylon stocking/the filter on coffee press/a drum sieve you might pass your pomme puree through (given the popularity of Masterchef) and it _looks just like the picture_ linked to above.

I'm sorry to rant and rave, but I'm so damn sick of this question..... seriously, if you cant work it out from the info that's already been given out so many times in this thread and others - don't ask again - just PM me your address and I will post you a swatch of the damn stuff so you can take it the shop with you.


----------



## sandjeep457

The picture looks like the Muslin I bought ......


----------



## Phoney

Well said T.B.

My head is spinning _The Exorcist _ style at how so many people can find buying swiss voile so difficult. I went to a fabric store in Campsie (little Hanoi, Sydney) and even the Vietnamese guy who barely spoke a word of English picked out the right stuff for me in an instant when I told him what I was after.

And as for Gryphon; I eventually replaced my home made job with one of those. It's 40 bucks, it saves you a world of stuffing around and it's better than anything you could ever make yourself anyway. Bite the bullet and buy it I say! :icon_cheers:


----------



## Thirsty Boy

sandjeep457 said:


> The picture looks like the Muslin I bought ......



And yet the muslin wouldn't be 100% polyester no??

Sorry about my last post, I am patently tired and emotional - will go take a bex and have a good lie down. It wasn't directed specifically at you BTW... it just seemed that way. My bad.

I do mean it about posting a swatch of the stuff though. I really want to stop having to answer this question every week or two.

TB


----------



## sandjeep457

Thats fine - it is Polyester - the bloke at Spotlight recommended it. I'll see how it goes tomorrow.

thanks anyway


----------



## PistolPatch

Okay, had a long day but will try and do a few helpful posts. The first one is on bags.

Re using natural fibres (e.g. cotton, hemp, canvas etc) read here

Re bag designs, shapes and material, read here

Reading those two links will save old ThirstyBoy a bit of frustration. ThirstyBoy is a bit like me. We don't mind writing a lot of detail but sometimes forget how hard it is for others to find the answers we may have written many times before. It isn't easy or fair for older brewers to expect newcomers to find answers easily but sometimes we forget this. We usually write detailed posts as a way to unwind, probably a bit like doing a crossword puzzle, so we shouldn't complain but sometimes we spit the dummy. It is our fault not yours. Usually when Thirsty does it, it is quite funny. When I do it, it is usually just plain appalling .

I get worn out sometimes . Worked 15 hours straight today (plus travel), let's see if I can answer a few posts sensibly now. Don't hold your breath but sometimes I can.


Pat


----------



## PistolPatch

barneyb said:


> Thanks for all the info, very encouraging. I will try and get my samples pre-boil from now on, just gotta get a metal ruler and figure out the volumes of my pot.
> 
> For what its worth I had a sample of my first AG (only 3 weeks in the bottle) and can't believe how good it is already. There is something I can't put my finger on...the body perhaps? Something great anyway! I'm going to bottle my current brew and put down another ASAP!



Great to hear back from you barney. It makes a difference to hear back that anything we have written helped a tad. I wrote some other stuff a few days ago that might help you here.

I am so pleased to see that you are already tasting a difference. It is a lot easier with all-grain to get "depth" in a beer - different layers of sensory excitement . Kit and extract beers are often what is sometimes described as "one-dimensional." (I have tasted a few that were not though.) Moving into multi-grain out of white bread is very easy with all-grain. I think that thing that you can't put your finger on may be those layers - often subtle.

I must say though that the brewers I have the most respect for are the ones that can brew a great kit or extract beer. Unfortunatley, any of the ones I have met have no idea how they do it and a lot of their beers still have that extract twang plus the one dimension.

Cheers to you barney,
Pat


----------



## PistolPatch

aussiechukka: Thanks for your reply AC. Will look forward to hearing how you go. Ageing doesn't help many beers and few of us have the patience to do it. If you do bottle a few and gradually taste them, please let us know what you come up with.

sandjeep: Congrats on your first BIAB . You are correct to question the term. "Swiss Voille." I'm pretty sure that it is the terminology I used in the .pdf at the beginning of this thread. In hindsight, "Swiss Voille," could, depending on the shop, mean anything! I'll see if I can get it sorted.

It is no wonder though that brewers get confused. I posted the guide originally here on AHB in the days when you could still edit posts. So, I always thought I could keep the guide up to date here easily. Quite a shame as it is a bit out of date now.

Anyway, latest guide, info etc can be found here but there is still a heap of work to do.

With a few volunteers we will get there ,
Pat


----------



## Thirsty Boy

sandjeep457 said:


> Thats fine - it is Polyester - the bloke at Spotlight recommended it. I'll see how it goes tomorrow.
> 
> thanks anyway




ahh - then it will almost certainly be fine. It's the damn name thing again... we say voile, but that apparently means about 35 different things and people get confused, you say muslin, I assume you mean the cotton stuff and I get it wrong (embarrassing after a good old fashioned rant really) ... there you go. Anyway, well done, I suspect you have the right stuff - ignore me when I am cranky.

Now get brewing and make sure you let us know how it goes this time - hopefully easier for you.

Cheers

TB


----------



## .DJ.

I'm going to be doing my first BIAB but have searched all morning and cant find the exact info I'm after. (yes, I probably had a "_man look_"....)

I'm doing Tony's LCBA clone and looking to have 26L into the fermenter at 1.046ish gravity.
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...&recipe=301

My question is:

How much initial water do I put in the urn? I obviously have to account for evaporation and grain... Is there a simple equation to work this out?


----------



## potof4x

You will also need to account for the amount left that you cant get out of the kettle and losses to trub. All these factors vary - depending on your setup. Also when wort cools it shrinks 4%

Typically I lose - 0.9 L per kilo of grain.
- 9% per hour of boil (40 L keggle)
- 1.5L to break material + what wont drain cause my pickup won't suck it.
- 4% shrink

Using a 5 kilo grain bill in this example - 

So work backwards. 26L + 4% + 1.5L + 9% + (5 x 0.9) = 35.6L

Remember that your grain will occupy some space, so if you are using a 40L urn you will be pushing for it to all fit!

If you get a copy of brewmate it will do the calcs for you, but these will get you started this batch.

Good luck


----------



## .DJ.

cheers...


----------



## potof4x

Are you going to no-chill also? If so you need to be careful with your hop additions, I have done a couple of Doc Smurto's Golden Ales that have ended up to bitter! Took me a couple of goes to figure that you need to delay your hop additions some!


----------



## Bribie G

Yes, the bigger grain bills can be a bit of a problem. To take a totally ridiculous example there's probably a grain bill of around 30K which, if you put that in the urn would soak up all the water and you would end up with a pre boil volume in the kettle of absolute zero  

The other point is that brews using a lot of adjuncts, eg a rice lager or maize cream ale seem to produce much smaller, dryer 'grain balls' at the end of the mash with more wort in the kettle than the same initial weight as, for example, 100% Maris Otter. The adjuncts get eaten up almost completely. 

Photo's suggestion is about spot on, sometimes my initial level in the urn after adding the grain is almost up to the top. With a larger (say over 5.5k) grain bill that's why I sometimes do a sparge in a bucket to get the pre boil level up again. The pre boil level is the important thing and eventually you will get a feel for what the level should look like - it's more art than science I've found.

Cheers
:icon_cheers:


----------



## reviled

I recently acquired a refractometer and decided to test the sugars im getting from sparging in the bucket... 

Basically what im doing is mashing in with say 4L per kg of grain, mashing for 60 mins, removing the bag and sparging with an additional 6L of water @ 78*c

I was brewing 20litres of 1060 beer with 6kg of malt, when I removed the bag and grain and lined my sparge bucket, the wort in the kettle had a reading of 15 brix, or 1060

I sparged with 7 odd litres, did a mini batch sparge twice and then ran off into a bucket, I measured the 6 odd litres left in the bucket and it read 9.5 brix, which to me seemed quite low?? Or is this about right? 

Has anyone else measured the results they get out of sparging?


----------



## .DJ.

thanks guys, I have my head around the no chill hop addition thingy...

fingers crossed for sunday.. havent brewed in a while and this is my fist BIAB..


----------



## RdeVjun

reviled said:


> I recently acquired a refractometer and decided to test the sugars im getting from sparging in the bucket...
> 
> Basically what im doing is mashing in with say 4L per kg of grain, mashing for 60 mins, removing the bag and sparging with an additional 6L of water @ 78*c
> 
> I was brewing 20litres of 1060 beer with 6kg of malt, when I removed the bag and grain and lined my sparge bucket, the wort in the kettle had a reading of 15 brix, or 1060
> 
> I sparged with 7 odd litres, did a mini batch sparge twice and then ran off into a bucket, I measured the 6 odd litres left in the bucket and it read 9.5 brix, which to me seemed quite low?? Or is this about right?
> 
> Has anyone else measured the results they get out of sparging?


Yep, I've been keeping some data reviled. My method is slightly different (19L stockpot, double sparged, over- gravity boil, dilution at pitching) but for a 4.75 kg grain bill, over the last five batches my averages are 1.084 in 10.6L for first runnings, 1.042 in 4.7L for first sparge, 1.032 in 4.3L for second sparge and dilutes to around 24L of 1.055 in the fermenter (which is just perfect!). 
FWIW, I've done 5.5kg in my small pot, numbers were 10.2L of 1.091, 4.5L of 1.043, 7.0L of 1.038 (two mini- sparges).

Now, if I understood it right, your numbers should yield about 3L of 1.060 per kg of grain mashed, whereas mine average just over 4 when adjusted to that concentration. Bigger beers tend to decrease efficiency, that's a fair jump though IMO and I'd be looking for answers. 
The sparge yielded 22% of the total sugars which isn't too bad, compare that with my average of 27%. Perhaps use near- boiling water for your sparge? I've found with small sparges, it needs to be that hot to get the whole lot up to a mashout temperature in the mid- 70s, perhaps that should yield a little bit more. Stir it well is another suggestion, but repeating it as you've done should help, particularly with the big grain bill and a smaller sparge vessel.

Hope this helps! :icon_cheers:


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Reviled,

It shouldn't be too hard to work out how well your sparge is performing. You just need to work out the total amount of sugars you made, the amount that went into your kettle as "first runnings" - thus giving you the amount left in your grains. Then when you work out how much went into you sparge - you can start to work out how efficient your sparge process is.

So..

Measure your gravity in the kettle before you sparge... You got 1.060 or 15 brix. I don't know what volumes you had, so I will make some up as an illustration.

You mashed with 28l
You ended up with 23 the kettle @ 15 brix
Which means you left behind 5L of your liquid trapped in the grain
You added 7 liters of sparge water and recovered 6 l of sparge runoff @ 9.5 brix
For a total of 29l pre boil volume

OK, now this is the twist to remember. you didn't make 19l of wort... You made 28! None of you liquid has vanished.. It's all still there. AND it all has a gravity of 15 brix! (if you have stirred you mash properly and everything is homogenous) It's just that 5l of it is still all mixed up with your grain. So now you know how much sugar is the theoretical maximum you could possibly extract by sparging. Just use gravity points. Ie: multiply the volume by the gravity. So you have a potential yield of 5 x 15 = 75 gravity points that you could potentially recover by sparging.

What you actually _did_ recover was... 6 oddL let's say that's 6.5 @ a gravity of 9.5 brix. Which is 6.5 x 9.5 =61.75 gravity points.

Which means that your sparge process was 61.75/75 x 100 = 82.3% efficient at recovering the sugars available to it. so, if the numbers I have fudged in are similar to your actual numbers.. Then there really isn't a whole lot of room for improvement in your sparge process... Which is what I would expect from a double batch/dunk sparge.

The caveat to this little exercise... Is that for it to be really meaningful in any true sense..... You have to be pretty accurate with your volume and gravity measurements. Small inaccuracies can throw the results out a goodly chunk. And you do need to be thorough with your pre bag pull stirring... Or the sugars won't be evenly distributed and the concentration in the grain fraction will be higher.. Which will tend to make your sparge _look_ more efficient... But will actually lower your total mash/sparge efficiency a bit.

Hope that all made sense

TB


----------



## .DJ.

.DJ. said:


> thanks guys, I have my head around the no chill hop addition thingy...
> 
> fingers crossed for sunday.. havent brewed in a while and this is my fist BIAB..


Well everything seemed to go reasonably well.. got about 24L of 1046 wort into the cube. About what I was aiming for!!!

Pretty happy and really enjoyed myself...

Now what to brew next...


----------



## PistolPatch

DJ, congratulations on your first AG!

I don't seem to have enough time to see when someone does their first AG but when I see posts such as yours, they always "up" my day. I'll look forward to hearing about how she tastes!

As for what to brew next, if you like LCBA then brew NRB's All American Amarillo Pale Ale. It's a really well-balanced version of LCPA and LCBA. Everyone loves that recipe. If you like a lager then try Lloydies Krispy Kolsch . If you ferment this low at say 14-15 C you don't get the fruitiness of a kolsch, more the crispness of a lager without the hassles.

As a third suggestion, I'd brew either the Black Beer recipe you'll find in the first post of this thread or Doc's one. Schwartz is a great beer - very interesting and very, "moreish.".

Cheers to you DJ,
Pat


----------



## .DJ.

Well its fermented, kegged, gassed and my little 9l keg was promptly polished off over the weekend. 

First of all props to Tony for a wicked recipe.

Beer was nice. Easily the best Pale Ale I have brewed Nicely balanced, as LCBA is.

Problems: cloudy, cloudy, cloudy. Now I dont know if it just hadnt settled as I kegged on Friday night, drank on Saturday. Or because I didnt use Whirfloc or the like?


----------



## Bribie G

Great results DJ :beerbang: I'd definitely be using whirlfloc with all BIAB brews. Only 1/4 tablet with a mini BIAB. Although I'm a big fan of Polyclar, with pale ales etc I've also had a lot of success with just good old isinglass finings tipped into the keg UK Pommy pub style and sit for a week. It does a great job on chill haze as well. 

The only downside is that they are a bugger to prepare, you have to give it a really long stir. I cheat with a cheap milkshake maker I bought from go lo. Seems to work. At the risk of annoying you with a genuine BribieG recycled photo -  the one on the left is a lager fined with gelatine / polyclar and the one on the right is an American cream ale cleared in the keg with isinglass. As you can see there is a slight difference in clarity but would be quite acceptable for pale ales.


----------



## Phoney

BribieG said:


> The only downside is that they are a bugger to prepare, you have to give it a really long stir. I cheat with a cheap milkshake maker I bought from go lo. Seems to work.



I prepare my polyclar mixture in a small pyrex measuring jug, drop in a stir bar and sit it on the stir plate for 20 mins, and it's done. :icon_cheers:


----------



## reviled

Cheers Rdevjun and Thirsty

Only just read your replies now, a bit to get my head around so will re-read through all of that over this arvo  Much appreciated tho!


----------



## beerbog

My 2nd BIAB, Dr Smurto's Golden Ale

My mash at 30 mins, gets a doona and sleeping bag on top as well. :beerbang:


----------



## Damian44

I was just looking through the the results for the Castle Hill comp and i won 1st prize in the Pilsner catorgory. Go BIAB. And i even used B Saaz. I hope its not a misprint. Unfortunately the keg just blew so i wont be able to enter it in the Nationals.


----------



## RdeVjun

Damian44 said:


> I was just looking through the the results for the Castle Hill comp and i won 1st prize in the Pilsner catorgory. Go BIAB. And i even used B Saaz. I hope its not a misprint. Unfortunately the keg just blew so i wont be able to enter it in the Nationals.


Firstly, well done on a great job, that's huge! :beerbang: But secondly, quick, I'd get re- brewing if you can! Might just squeeze one through in time, quite within the AABC rules to re- brew.

BIAB got 2nd and 3rd in Qld in Pale Lager (OMFSM!), plus a 1st in Low alc, 3rd in Stout, maybe more- as you say, go BIAB!


----------



## PistolPatch

Good on you Damian - a top score in a difficult category.

I see Ralph has added you to the Hall of Fame - good on him .

Top job mate :super:


----------



## MarkBastard

I tried out a 'no squeeze' BIAB and my efficiency was the same as my usual squeezing.

Just pulled the bag out and drained for as long as I could be bothered, then chucked it in another pot (equiv of a bucket) and let it sit for a while. The wort finds its way out of the grain and into the bottom of the pot. Then empty the wort from the pot back into the kettle. Do this every 5 minutes until the boil.

I found squeezing annoying so I'm happy with this process, and I don't want to actually hang the bag either so this works well for me.

Hanging would no doubt be quicker in terms of time it takes the wort to come out of the bag, but I figure it takes a while to get up to the boil anyway so doing it this way doesn't add any time to the brew day.


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

Mark^Bastard said:


> I tried out a 'no squeeze' BIAB and my efficiency was the same as my usual squeezing.
> 
> Just pulled the bag out and drained for as long as I could be bothered, then chucked it in another pot (equiv of a bucket) and let it sit for a while. The wort finds its way out of the grain and into the bottom of the pot. Then empty the wort from the pot back into the kettle. Do this every 5 minutes until the boil.
> 
> I found squeezing annoying so I'm happy with this process, and I don't want to actually hang the bag either so this works well for me.
> 
> Hanging would no doubt be quicker in terms of time it takes the wort to come out of the bag, but I figure it takes a while to get up to the boil anyway so doing it this way doesn't add any time to the brew day.



Are you dunk sparging Mark?


----------



## PistolPatch

Mark^Bastard said:


> Then empty the wort from the pot back into the kettle. Do this every 5 minutes until the boil.


Howdy Mark ,

We might need a bit more info here. Emptying the wort from a bucket into the kettle every five minutes sounds like a PITA!

BIAB gives very good efficiency no matter what you do for the reasons listed here.

There are also two methods of draining wort offered here.

I might be missing something here but we definitely need more info.

I have also noticed lately that some BIABrewers are crushing too fine. Your crush should not be full of flour. Like any brewing method, it is all a question of balance.

Too fine a crush (with any method) will give you greater gravity but less volume. Too coarse a crush will give you more volume but at less gravity.

Any brewer can score efficiency increases just by draining their mash tun or bag until just before the end of the boil but this is just stupid and inconvenient.

Just do a normal crush and drain as much as you can, with little effort, before your brew reaches the boil. Doing this with BIAB, will give you around 80% efficiency into the kettle which is also known as mash efficiency and what most brewers call their "brewhouse efficiency."

If you want a couple more efficiency points than this to achieve a wort of probably less quality and that will cost you a lot more time and expense, then fly-sparge or buy a commercial brewery . 

Spot ya,
Pat


----------



## bcp

That's really helpful Pat, but i'm stuffed if i know how to get 80% efficiency. I think i have been crushing too fine though. But i stir, i lift the bag about halfway through... just over 70% is the best i've done, and never consistently.

I have two digital thermometers, and they vary in reading. I'm wondering if my temps are out, but i wouldn't have thought i'd be that far out as to make a difference. 

But I don't need 80% - i'd be happy with 70% if i could just get the same efficiency every time so i can plan my recipes around it. Consistency is the thing.


----------



## felten

Could be a pH issue, melb water is very soft (if you're down in this part of the state/country). Get some pH strips and do some testing. And then if you haven't already, have a read of the 3 braukaiser articles on pH and brewing.


----------



## Rodolphe01

What sort of retention of wort are others getting from the grain?

I did my first full-size BIAB on the weekend and in my calcs I expected my ~5kg of grain to hold ~5L of wort. Perhaps it was the extended hang time of the bag (had to disapear for a bit), but when my volume was ~3L more than expected I weighed my grain and worked out it had retained only 150g per kilo of grain. I didn't take a gravity reading into kettle, probably should have given it was my first batch in new equipment, i figured i will just take a gravity reading into fermenter and correct with dry malt. Pre-boil volume was adjusted by taking out 3L of wort, i will use this for starters etc, or maybe boil it down to correct gravity of this batch.


----------



## felten

Its a lot less then traidional mash tun brewing. The calc spreadsheets use .63L/KG


----------



## Rodolphe01

I still ended up with only a quarter of that, with absolutely no squeezing. Probably a combination of extended hang time (about 45-60 mins) and perhaps a coarser crush - HBS crushes it for me, I assume they do a fairly 'normal' crush assuming a 'traditional' mash etc.

I don't really mind, I guess it is better, so long as efficiency is good and it is consistent.


----------



## MarkBastard

beerdrinkingbob said:


> Are you dunk sparging Mark?



Nope.

No sparge, no mash out, no hoisting and no squeezing.

I use my 19L Big W pot in the same way others use a bucket, ie when I remove the bag from the kettle I plonk it into the pot.

After 5 minutes there's probably about an inch of wort sitting in the bottom of the pot, so I left the pot by holding it in my left hand and the bag in my right hand, and then tip the contents of the pot into the kettle as it's ramping up to boiling. I then put the bag back in the pot and sit it down again.

The height of the bag with grain in it is probably about say 5 inches. The grain at the top dries out first and goes down to the bottom and then out the bag, bit by bit. This liquid I just put back into kettle a few times while waiting for the boil.

This is the easiest thing you can do. I've tried the other ways.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

I also achieve 80% and higher consistently with my BIAB mashing. I'm a stovetop BIABer, not a tradtional BIABer with an urn, so thought I'd get semantics out of the way.

I don't own a coffee grinder. LHBS (a sponsor up the top) mills it for me for a normal brew.

I have two big w pots (2nd was on special so I picked it up, in case I wanted to start constructing something). I split the grain bill in two and mash each pot at the same time. The electric stove I have (just) fits them both to bring to mash temp.

Mash for 90 minutes (standard practice for me).

Mrs has pasta pot with insert strainer, which acts as a false bottom. 2 kettles of appropriate temp water per bag (there are two bags (2 pots), so 4 kettle-loads in total) and a good squeeze. This method also saves labour as I don't have to hang bags. I just chuck it into pot, give it a squeeze, sparge, squeeze, sparge squeeze; get bag 2 and repeat. 2-2.5 kg of grain into a pot is an easy task.

Then boil, removing break if it appears.

If needed, I dilute (i.e boil was too vigorous). Then I measure the SG and adjust for temp using an online calculator.

80-83% every time.

Hope this helps someone. M^B works very well, and he is super-helpful for helping understand his method which is probably as good and less labour intensive than even my method (which is a reduction compared to hanging the bag up).

Goomba


----------



## MarkBastard

I get around 68% into fermenter efficiency. It's the only efficiency I care about because it's the one I set in BeerSmith when formulating recipes.

I've achieved that same efficiency no matter which process I go with, give or take.

I've never measured any other efficiencies like pre and post boil and don't particularly need to.

I usually achieve my desired OG to the nearest point too.


----------



## argon

felten said:


> Could be a pH issue, melb water is very soft (if you're down in this part of the state/country). Get some pH strips and do some testing. And then if you haven't already, have a read of the 3 braukaiser articles on pH and brewing.



BCP... i'd be looking at your mash PH if you reckon you've got most other things sorted out and you want a tad more efficiency.

I had been brewing happily for about 12 months with efficieny pretty smuch spot on at 70% which i thought was fine. I then looked into mash ph for other reasons (malt flavour, hop presence and tailoring brewing styles to water chemistry) When i adjusted my water to what I think was optimum, i immediately jumped from bang on 70% to 79-82% efficiency over 3 or 4 batches, without changing any other part of my process. And that was doing full size double batches!!

Have a look at your water profile and try and get it in the right range... somewhere around ph 5.2 - 5.4 and see how that goes... Someone like Fourstar would be a good bet to ask questions of.. ie in Melbourne and has a handle on water additions/chemistry and their effects on the mash.

It's a lot simpler than i first thought... can't remember who told me this but i saved it off



> touch of gypsum (lighter coloured hoppy beers),
> calcium chloride (lighter coloured malty beers)
> chalk (darker beers) is all you need to start with




:icon_cheers:


----------



## lespaul

Just using the calc spreadsheet for a couple of brews im planning this weekend (a kolsch and the irish red http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...&recipe=709)
with the grain bill it comes to 5.23kg but when i put it into the calculator with the opening gravity of 1.054 it tells me that it will be 6.2kg. Is this normal to be using an extra kilo for the BIAB method?
also when i am putting in the hop bill the recipe shows total bitterness and the aa% but when i put in the actual AA% that im using it gives me a much less IBU (22.7IBU with 43.8g at 45min and 27.2g at 15min). In the recipe i dont have the ammount of bittering of each hop addition but only the final. Is there a way to fix this?
Thanks


----------



## felten

You might have to change the brew length number, putting in 18.65L and a 1.054 OG gives me 5.23kg grain, and a 23.5L end of boil volume which is close to what the recipe says.

The brew length is end of boil volume minus kettle trub, and fermenter trub.


----------



## bcp

argon said:


> BCP... i'd be looking at your mash PH if you reckon you've got most other things sorted out and you want a tad more efficiency.
> 
> I had been brewing happily for about 12 months with efficieny pretty smuch spot on at 70% which i thought was fine. I then looked into mash ph for other reasons (malt flavour, hop presence and tailoring brewing styles to water chemistry) When i adjusted my water to what I think was optimum, i immediately jumped from bang on 70% to 79-82% efficiency over 3 or 4 batches, without changing any other part of my process. And that was doing full size double batches!!
> 
> Have a look at your water profile and try and get it in the right range... somewhere around ph 5.2 - 5.4 and see how that goes... Someone like Fourstar would be a good bet to ask questions of.. ie in Melbourne and has a handle on water additions/chemistry and their effects on the mash.
> 
> It's a lot simpler than i first thought... can't remember who told me this but i saved it off
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :icon_cheers:


Thanks. I'll definitely try it. If that makes the difference i'll feel pretty good about my process. 

The discussion is also interesting about the whole issue of potentially losing the simplicity of biab with all sorts of complex manual fix-its, like squeezing, sparging, etc, when we only need consistency. So i'm starting to think if i can get reasonable efficiency with least effort, why get into hard work for those last few points. But getting the pH right is worthwhile because it's helpful for flavour profile anyway.


----------



## felten

good read on how to treat melb water here


----------



## argon

bcp said:


> Thanks. I'll definitely try it. If that makes the difference i'll feel pretty good about my process.
> 
> The discussion is also interesting about the whole issue of potentially losing the simplicity of biab with all sorts of complex manual fix-its, like squeezing, sparging, etc, when we only need consistency. So i'm starting to think if i can get reasonable efficiency with least effort, why get into hard work for those last few points. But getting the pH right is worthwhile because it's helpful for flavour profile anyway.




Good one... obviously i reckon it's worth a go. As you say for the flavour benefits. Plus any extra efficiency is a bonus. 

When i was looking into chemistry i had a look at these sites for a bit of info on the effects of water additions. 

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-1.html
and
http://www.brewersfriend.com/2009/03/14/al...ng-information/

Also you can use this handy tool on the babbs site.. it's pretty much set up for brisbane, but if you add in the Melbourne particulars it'll sort you out.

http://nomograph.babbrewers.com/index.html

Definitely worth sorting out these things i reckon. Split mashes/boils, squeezing, sparging and all that can convolute things to a point where it feels like you're moving away from the simplicity of BIAB (which is why i now 3V - for a range of reasons)

IMHO if you're getting a predictable 70% efficiency or better with the "original" simple method of BIAB then it's not worth any extra steps in the process. To me 70%+ represents pretty good value.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

It's funny - the methods I got to to get 80%+ efficiency were actually originally designed to minimise my labour and make it easier for one person to brew, if I didn't have a helper (the same as 3V does that, by virtue of automating the sparging process via recirculation for example).

So happens I picked up a nice increase in efficiency as a bonus.

And I'd argue that my process is as simple, if not simpler than Nick_JD's (thanks for your guide Nick - it got me onto BIAB and AG in the first place) guide - for my situation.

Goomba


----------



## PistolPatch

Lots of great posts above - some great advice on how if you are following all the basic rules and have accurate measuring equipment and still get low efficiency then pH is definitely the next cab off the rank. Also great comment from bcp on being careful not to lose the simplicity.

Just thought I'd try and help lespaul on the recipe conversion calcs...



lespaul said:


> Just using the calc spreadsheet for a couple of brews im planning this weekend (a kolsch and the irish red http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...&recipe=709)
> with the grain bill it comes to 5.23kg but when i put it into the calculator with the opening gravity of 1.054 it tells me that it will be 6.2kg. Is this normal to be using an extra kilo for the BIAB method?
> also when i am putting in the hop bill the recipe shows total bitterness and the aa% but when i put in the actual AA% that im using it gives me a much less IBU (22.7IBU with 43.8g at 45min and 27.2g at 15min). In the recipe i dont have the ammount of bittering of each hop addition but only the final. Is there a way to fix this?
> Thanks



felten has nailed your problem on the grain bill side of things . It gets very confusing working between different software programs and the way they can or need to be set up. Some brewers will use the term batch size as what goes into their fermenter while other brewer's, "recipe reports," mean the post-boil volume. It is often difficult to know which one they mean unless you know the software they are using and even knowing this sometimes means you still have to do some figuring or guessing to work out how they have set their software up!

And, it gets worse...

When converting recipes, every program will give you different gravity and bitterness results which is a PITA. The Calculator* (or BIAB spreadsheet) uses a standard gravity formula but usually reads about 3 points different from Beersmith etc. The formula used for bitterness comes from John Palmer but reads far lower than other brewing software. For example, a recipe I plugged in the other day came up with...

ProMash = 41 IBU's
BeerSmith = 35 IBUs
Beer Alchemy = 43 IBUs 
The Calculator = 31 IBUs

My goodness!!!

When communicating recipes, end of boil figures are the easiest to work. They are the common denominator of gravity and bitterness as these two things do not change from this point on. The best way of communicating recipes though is to take the time to explain the set-up your figures are based on such as Jamil and John do on Page 41 of, "Brewing Classic Styles," or in the manner of The Calculator where all volumes, gravities etc are described explicitly. This makes it easy for others.

*What You Should Worry About/Do when Converting*

The way I convert a recipe is...

1. Try to determine the original brewer's end of boil volume. (This can be difficult if the original brewer has used volume into fermenter as their batch size as you will have to guess at their losses after the boil or play around in the program _*they*_ used until you establish their post-boil volume.)

2. Now set your software or spreadsheet so as the end of boil volume matches the above.

3. Now set your efficiency figure to the original brewers efficiency figure (based on post-boil efficiency.)

3. Type into your software the original weights and times of ingredients.

4. Now take a note (write down) what OG and bitterness your software / spreadsheet reads.

5. Now type in _*your*_ desired end of boil volume (this will be what you want to get in your fermenter plus what you lose when transferring from the kettle/cube etc.) and _*your*_ efficiency figure.

6. Now adjust the grain weights until you "score" the OG you wrote down above. Often their is a scaling function on the software or spreadsheet that will do this for you.

7. Finally adjust your hops until you score the bitterness level you wrote down above. Once again most software or spreadsheets will do this for you.

Good recipes will take a lot of punishment so don't be panicked about making a stuff-up as you'll end up with a great beer anyway.

Jamil and John's recipes work on 75% efficiency and a post-boil volume of 22.7 L. The average end of boil efficiency on BIAB figures I have collected is a bit over 79%. I think a new brewer could happily copy any recipe in J & J's book exactly without worrying about the efficiency difference and end up with 19 L of splendid beer in their bottles or keg. It's a great book to have on your shelf.

So, if you were wondering why converting recipes can be a little bit demanding on your brain, hopefully the above shows why .

Cheers,
Pat

* You are now free to distribute your recipes in The Calculator format providing you follow the copyright instruction explained here. The name will also soon be changed to BIAB-Calculator to make it easier to find.


----------



## K&K

Has anyone tried to recirculate your liquor (after the mashing) through the grain bed in the bag? My thinking is that it can be done and it may improve clarity (possibly efficiency). Has anyone though along the same lines?

How I plan on doing it is to perform the mash in, raise the bag (tie it up) and then use the tap in the bottom of my pot to drain some liquor, put it into a no chill cube then run it back into the grain bag using a silicone hose tied in a ring to gently sparge the liquor through the grain back into the pot (and repeat).

Is there anything that can go wrong? Do I need to maintain a specific temp for the liquor to effectively work?

Cheers,

Trav


----------



## RdeVjun

K&K, while I note your enthusiasm, I really need to ask, 'why?' The boil takes care of most clarity issues with cloudy BIAB runnings. With batch after batch of nice clear BIAB beer, it just hasn't been worth pursuing IMO. 
By all means, feel free to experiment though, that's what I like to see! :icon_cheers:


----------



## pk.sax

BIAB lesson 1: Learn to sew

Problem: Sewing machine turned out to be broken :S Couldn't be stuffed sewing by hand.

Workaround : Didn't sew, just clipped the bag to the pot and popped the lid on and covered with two towels, not a single degree C lost. Bag did NOT resemble anybody's jewels either, was a round lump I pulled out of the pot.


----------



## Budron

Hey guys,

I did a quick search but couldn't find anything. I am looking at making the move to BIAB and am in need of a bag. As I am currently unable to get to spotlight for some swiss voille, I was wondering if this stuff thatCraftbrewer sells is the same/similar thing? Has anyone used it for a full 5-6kg grain mash in an urn??

Cheers,

Budron


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Budron said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I did a quick search but couldn't find anything. I am looking at making the move to BIAB and am in need of a bag. As I am currently unable to get to spotlight for some swiss voille, I was wondering if this stuff thatCraftbrewer sells is the same/similar thing? Has anyone used it for a full 5-6kg grain mash in an urn??
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Budron



Right stuff, but 24 inch squared may be a bit on the small side, depending on what sized pot you are using - I don't think it'll be big enough for 5-6 kg of grain IMO. My bags are all 4 foot squared (i.e 4 times the size of this bag on CB). See if they have a bigger one. Or if you have/can obtain 2 x big w pots (as I have), you can split the grain bill and you might get away with that sized bag, though again, I somewhat doubt it.

I have lincraft closer to me than spotlight and they have it. Maybe you have a lincraft closer? Or can order online for it?

Another option may be if you have a large enough esky, you can use some mesh or stockings and a tube through the bung. Tie the stocking tight over the bit of tube within the esky so beer can flow out but grain doesn't, and have the other end of tube into your boiling pot. It'll remove the need for the bag, though it will add some kit needed to get there.

Hope I've helped.


Goomba


----------



## matr

Budron said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I did a quick search but couldn't find anything. I am looking at making the move to BIAB and am in need of a bag. As I am currently unable to get to spotlight for some swiss voille, I was wondering if this stuff thatCraftbrewer sells is the same/similar thing? Has anyone used it for a full 5-6kg grain mash in an urn??
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Budron



Gryphon Brewing bags look pretty good for $45. I'm going to attempt making one out of 415 micron SS mesh, but if that fails then I'll be buying one of his..

Cheers, Mat.


----------



## Bribie G

matr said:


> Gryphon Brewing bags look pretty good for $45. I'm going to attempt making one out of 415 micron SS mesh, but if that fails then I'll be buying one of his..
> 
> Cheers, Mat.



At first glance the Gryphon bags may seem expensive, but I've done about 50 brews in the first one and it's as good as new although a bit tea stained. I bought a new one for my second urn and after around 12 brews it still looks like it's fresh off the shelf. I saw a Craftbrewer bag at the Pine Rivers club meeting the other week and it would be the ducks nuts for anything up to say a 30l stockpot, but not for an urn. 

My original bag which I gave to an AHB member was Spotlight Material, sewing lady on the island ran it up for me but when I add up the transport costs to Spotlight and the Lady, the sewing charges, the bag material and the sheer amount of time and stuffing around, I gladly bought my next one online from GB. :icon_cheers:


----------



## DUANNE

the gryphon bags are a good buy if you dont want to make one yourself.^matr that sounds good using the ss mesh, good way to get round all the food safe nazis around here at times.


----------



## Budron

Thanks for the quick responses guys. 

As I dont really know anyone that sows and would doubt myself as to make a good enough job without it falling apart on me, I may just have to bite the bullet and spend the money on a Gryphon Brewing bag.

Cheers,

Budron.


----------



## bkmad

Budron said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I did a quick search but couldn't find anything. I am looking at making the move to BIAB and am in need of a bag. As I am currently unable to get to spotlight for some swiss voille, I was wondering if this stuff thatCraftbrewer sells is the same/similar thing? Has anyone used it for a full 5-6kg grain mash in an urn??
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Budron



My biab bag is that exact one. It is a bit small but it does work in my 50L pot. The stitching on mine is starting to look a bit worse for wear though after 7 uses. In answer to your question about if it will work for a 5-6kg grain bill, then yes it will be fine. The largest I went was 9kg, but I did line it with a sheet of voil, to spare the stitching a little. In hindsight though, I don't think its really isn't the right tool for the job. If you can't find any voil you could just buy the one of Gryphon's website. Its a ready made voil bag that looks great. Thats what I'll be doing soon.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Didn't even sew mine up. It just sits in the pot and the weight of the lid and its size holds it in place for me nicely.

Wrap up the ends and into the pasta pot strainer and we are all ready to sparge if wanted.

Goomba


----------



## Bribie G

That's always an option, Scruffy does that with just a square of material and does some amazing grain bills. If you have a skyhook then get some thick awning cord and do yourself a hangman's noose for hoisting after you have gathered all the loose ends together and formed a 'neck' for the noose to hold onto, and that should work.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

BribieG said:


> That's always an option, Scruffy does that with just a square of material and does some amazing grain bills. If you have a skyhook then get some thick awning cord and do yourself a hangman's noose for hoisting after you have gathered all the loose ends together and formed a 'neck' for the noose to hold onto, and that should work.



I noticed all the people that had those and it seemed good to do, though underneath the house was a hard spot to figure out where to do it. And I rent, so no alterations to anything on the house.

But splitting my grain bill up has been a big plus for me - bags are smaller and therefore easier to obtain/replace and small enough to put into a 9L pasta strainer & pot, and not have to hang. Just let it drain and run some hot water over it and return it to the boiling wort.

Horses, courses - even for BIAB.

Goomba


----------



## matr

BEERHOG said:


> matr that sounds good using the ss mesh, good way to get round all the food safe nazis around here at times.



The only problem is bonding it. Have thought of spot welding or using aquarium silicon or a similar non toxic adhesive. Still need to decide.

Pricing is about $57 + GST for 1.2m x 1m so not too bad.

Cheers, Mat.


----------



## lespaul

felten said:


> good read on how to treat melb water here



+1
cheers


----------



## The_Duck

As has often been said in this thread, there is no specific wrong way to make up a bag for BIAB as most people use different gear and need to use what works for them.

Just thought I'd add that I have been using an open weave cotton for my bag and have had no issues with it so far. The bag is double thickness of material with 3 rows of triple stitching on each seam for strength.

Originally the bag was a simple pillow case shape, which I changed after 2 batches that were difficult to drain over my keggle.

I cut the bottom 2 corners off and re-stitched the seams to create a tapered design that seems to have done the trick. Yes... I did the sewing myself and NO I have no clue where the hell I picked up that skill :blink: 

Reading this thread, I will also be implementing a new part of my process to dunk sparge at 78. I have been using slightly cooled boiling water to sparge over/thru the bag to increase my boil volume and extract the last sugars from the grains. Once most of the dripping has stopped, I dump the bag into a plastic bucket which periodically gets emptied into the keggle while ramping up for the boil. I might still sparge with clean water, but dunk sparging also seems logically easier.

Next brew might need to be for the club Xmas party in early Dec so I need to get a wriggle on this weekend  


Duck


----------



## Thirsty Boy

I bought not only the material for my bag, enough material for another bag and a variety of hopmbags/cheese cloths - but also a little sewing machine from the reject shop to sew it up with. All for a sum of money that would give me change if i handed over enough cash to buy a pre-made one.

My next bag will be free apart from an hours effort to sew it up, and the ones after that might cost me a fiver each if i don't try to make it cheaper.

The bought ones look good,, but unless you are scared of sewing machines, they are a little on the exy side.


----------



## mh971

Chookers said:


> heres a smaller version of the food thermos



Bud, no not really right place, you've bumped a somewhat old and finished thread that was on a different subject.

Might have been better to ask teh question as a new thread.

I can't really see the practicality of either of the items you show without some difficult modifications. 

I can however recommend doing what I do to save further embarrasment, which is read, read, read, search, search, read, then search and read some more and you'll normally find your answer somewhere on here. And only contribute to current threads ( an etiquette I am now breaking to assist you)


----------



## Chookers

thanks anyways


----------



## PistolPatch

Mick71 said:


> ...you've bumped a somewhat old and finished thread...


You trying to close our thread Mick . We were just having a little rest .

This thread is always open for BIAB questions or input. We haven't even hit 2,000 posts yet .

Can't see your original post now Chookers but from what I remember it wasn't BIAB-specific so Mick's advice was good. Hope you got your question answered.

Cheers,
Pat


----------



## mh971

PistolPatch said:


> You trying to close our thread Mick . We were just having a little rest .
> 
> This thread is always open for BIAB questions or input. We haven't even hit 2,000 posts yet .
> 
> Can't see your original post now Chookers but from what I remember it wasn't BIAB-specific so Mick's advice was good. Hope you got your question answered.
> 
> Cheers,
> Pat


 You are right Pat, I shouldn't be encouraging others to be long time lurkers like me, otherwise no one would post anything and I wouldn't have anything new to read. I am continually amazed at how much intelligent information is on here if you look and was trying to save old mate Chookers from a potentially embarrasing moment on a serious AG thread with some polite but to the point etiquite advice.

Holy cow now I'm off topic.

So, 
I'm thinking of making a bag stand(false bottom), pick up and stainless tap to my BIAB pot and trying to step mash and sparge. Should I persevere with this or start thinking about a seperate lauter tun.


----------



## mh971

only 105 to go now to the 2000 mark


----------



## felten

I can't see any reason why you can't have a false bottom in your kettle and do some standard sparging, but you would need another container to hold it anyway. You don't need to sparge though really, you should be able to get a decent efficiency with just the full volume mashing itself.

Step mashing is a piece of piss, just apply heat and stir until you hit temps, or you can even decoction mash.


----------



## PistolPatch

Mick71 said:


> Holy cow now I'm off topic...
> 
> So,
> I'm thinking of making a bag stand(false bottom), pick up and stainless tap to my BIAB pot and trying to step mash and sparge. Should I persevere with this or start thinking about a seperate lauter tun.



LOL Mick on the off-topic bit . (Hope chookers got sorted :huh

On the second bit, I have a heap of questions before I can give any answers that may or may not be any more useful than Felten's perfectly correct answer above...

I reckon the first thing we need to know here is why you want to step mash and why you want to sparge.

On the former, I remember reading something that ThirstyBoy wrote within the last week that was a very good read, something about how you should have a reason to step mash. Search his posts for "reason + step" or something.

Step mashing does not require sparging (rinsing). In a traditional system, it requires additons of heated water / liquor. Step mashing with BIAB is actually easier in a way because it doesn't have to include these additions of liquor just application of heat to the full volume. The only question is how fast can you apply the heat? I know very little on this subject but from memory, if you can apply 1 C per minute then that is okay.

And Mick, watch the adding more stuff to your kettle bit.

I seriously regret adding taps to my two BIAB kettles. You can read my reasons (recent rants) on why here, here and here.

I probably said in one of the above links that more equipment does not necessarily mean a time or labour saving. Just make sure you really think this through.

Cheers Mick ,
Pat


----------



## mh971

Thanks guys.

reasons for both are a little bit of personal development and experimentation. I am stoked with the results I have been getting using BIAB but read so much about mashing in different ways. I want to try a step or decoction mash to see if there are any gains to be made in flavour/body/feel of the beers i am making and if there is any if they justfy the additional effort.

Tap was hence to drain off some quasi first runnings, and for ease of transfer to fermenter. no problems with the muscle to lift a pour a 20L pot of liquid into the fermenter, just thinking about safety, aeration and potential for catastrophic loss of wort.

I'll be sure to check out your rants Pat, becuase I do like the simplicity of my current setup( ie a pot, an unsewn square of voil, a hop sock, big spoon, bucket , and nepalese blanket). I'm Just feeling like i might be missing out on something.

cheers Mick


----------



## irwazza

Is there any good guides or tutorials for setting up beersmith for the biab method?


----------



## felten

For water volumes and boil off stuff you're better off using the calculator /spreadsheet, I think it was linked a few pages back. Beersmiths volume calculations don't work too well (imo) as they throw out the ibu numbers.


----------



## mh971

Found this one Biab_equipment_set_up_volumes_140909.xls but read that there is later version including hop schedules however link was broken, does anyone know of the location of Pats latest version

Only just started to use Beersmith, first brew day using it was to be this weekend. Finding there is a better calculator is handy


----------



## felten

The latest version is here on the biabrewer website here. 

Pat's gonna hate me, but I still use the old 140909 spreadsheet, I get the same numbers from both spreadsheets but I use beersmith for the other calculations the new spreadsheet has, just need it for water volumes and boil off.


----------



## Squared

Hey BIAB gurus, 

seriously considering going this way, I'm a relatively novice brewer. Anyways, what would be an ideal kettle size to have to make typical 5 gallon batches. In other words, a good kettle size to start up, and I won't be doing any more volume than 5 gallon batches in my forseeable future.

Thanks guys!

First post whoo-hoo


----------



## felten

If you're only ever going to do single batches, like myself, 50L is an ideal size. If you think you may ever want to do double batches regularily though you might want to look in something bigger like 70-80. 50L can handle a double batch but you would probably have to make a concentrated wort and water it down in the FV.

oh and welcome


----------



## bcp

Squared said:


> Hey BIAB gurus,
> 
> seriously considering going this way, I'm a relatively novice brewer. Anyways, what would be an ideal kettle size to have to make typical 5 gallon batches. In other words, a good kettle size to start up, and I won't be doing any more volume than 5 gallon batches in my forseeable future.
> 
> Thanks guys!
> 
> First post whoo-hoo


Welcome to the forum. 5 gallons = 19 litres. I do 6 gallon/23 litre batches, and use a 40 litre electric urn and have found that is ample, although the control of the boil with the urn is perfect - never boils over. I've done some biggish beers in there with large grain bills, too. I can't comment on whether it's different for other types of kettles.


----------



## Squared

bcp said:


> Welcome to the forum. 5 gallons = 19 litres. I do 6 gallon/23 litre batches, and use a 40 litre electric urn and have found that is ample, although the control of the boil with the urn is perfect - never boils over. I've done some biggish beers in there with large grain bills, too. I can't comment on whether it's different for other types of kettles.




Allright, I found a 40 L kettle and propane burner for a half-decent price, so I think judging on how you have enough room I'll go that route. As for style, I'm not overly fond of overly big beers so I think that 40L will do just fine at this point. I just wanted to do it right the first time, eh.

and 23L batches is what I was going for, thank you for corecting me. I'd rather talk metric but most of my info/recipes in Canada is still Imperial (is it like that everywhere?) so it equals many conversions which makes me a sad brewer,lol


----------



## bcp

Squared said:


> Allright, I found a 40 L kettle and propane burner for a half-decent price, so I think judging on how you have enough room I'll go that route. As for style, I'm not overly fond of overly big beers so I think that 40L will do just fine at this point. I just wanted to do it right the first time, eh.
> 
> and 23L batches is what I was going for, thank you for corecting me. I'd rather talk metric but most of my info/recipes in Canada is still Imperial (is it like that everywhere?) so it equals many conversions which makes me a sad brewer,lol



If you get around to getting software, like Beersmith, you can enter the recipe in imperial, and at the click of a button change everything to metric. You can also take a recipe of any volume and scale it to your 23 litres in a similar way.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

40L is the minimum volume i think you can usefully use for the simplest easiest BIAB. 40L _is_ fine... But if you can get a 50L and not spend too much more, i think that would be a better choice.


----------



## globe

Where can i get me one of these brew in a bags?


----------



## Bribie G

Well if you go back to post #1 and have a read of this thread you'll get the idea pretty quickly


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

globalbrewing said:


> Where can i get me one of these brew in a bags?



And visit ross at craftbrewer (Capalaba) for anything else.

Goomba


----------



## johncock

Got a recipe for Pale Ale using the BIAB technique. Having trouble calculating how much water i would need etc


----------



## Bribie G

I would highly recommend the free brewing software "Brewmate" - written by an AHB member and now has BIAB support. There's a great set of calculating tools - as it happens I'm doing a 25L brew this afternoon. Normally I'd do 23L and know exactly how much liquor to use for the particular grain bill. So feeding the data into Brewmate it works it out for me. :icon_cheers:


----------



## PistolPatch

johncock said:


> Got a recipe for Pale Ale using the BIAB technique. Having trouble calculating how much water i would need etc


Welcome to the forum John :icon_cheers:

Your question is a great one and a very common one that I see very few good answers too.

When starting out in all-grain brewing, there are so many questions! The funny thing is that with BIAB, _*many *_of them can be answered quickly and very well depending on your knowledge level.

Older brewers tend to forget just how bewildering and how fragmented internet information is on all-grain. It can be very hard for new brewers to get an answer to such a simple question as yours. Bribie has mentioned Brewmate and, of course, there is Beersmith which, in the next version, will have BIAB capabilities.

I spend quite a lot of time answering questions such as yours on BIABrewer.info and I either already have a dialogue going with the above software providers or have made repeated attempts to. I am hoping this dialogue will give some great results soon. 

In the meantime, I have found the best way to explain volumes, gravities and bitterness is via a simple spreadsheet. While a simple spreadsheet still begs many questions it is, at least, on a single computer screen so it allows you to follow the logic of the brewing process and easily talk a common language.

I will attach a few of these spreadsheets here (anyone can distribute these as long as they credit the original source and explain that the most up to date version can only be found on that site.)

The first is the basic version of what is known for now as The Calculator. Studying this will hopefully answer your volumes question. Just take a bit of time to read each line - there is no quicker way I know of to get your next questions focussed.
View attachment The_Calculator.xls

I will also attach a copy of a 'The Calculator' spreadsheet that shows a great APA recipe that originated here on AHB! Read the recipe layout here as well as it is a very good template for how recipes should be passed on. 
View attachment The_Calculator_NRB_APA.xls

One of the great things about the above spreadsheet is it gives you a great ball-park figure for working out evaporation rates as it is based on the surface area of your kettle which is the most significant factor in determining evaporation rates. I have offered this to both Beersmith and Brewmate and Brad from Beersmith has responded enthusiastically so maybe we will see this as a Beersmith tool soon?

A lot of people apologise when they write a long post on a forum. I'm not going to John. I've been around long enough now to _*know*_ that many brewing questions can't be answered in a few lines - it is hardly _*ever*_ possible to instantly impregnate information.

So, I reckon, download the above files, grab yourself a nice beer and allow yourself a good half hour or hour to study 'The Calculator' files. You will have more questions so jot them down. Many will disappear on your second relaxed beer. The ones that are left, I or others will be most happy to answer here.

Cheers,
Pat


----------



## Bada Bing Brewery

G'day Squared
+1 all of the above. I have just done my 5th BIAB and it is great - what an invention!. I use a 50L pot which is perfect as you have plenty of room and it shouldnt boil over for single batches. The BREWMATE SOFTWARE is excellent for BIAB. Go to www.brewmate.com and download it free. I did kits years ago and always wanted to use grains and create beers form scratch. 3 Months ago I found out about BIAB and I am hooked.
Enjoy


----------



## johncock

PistolPatch said:


> Welcome to the forum John :icon_cheers:
> 
> Your question is a great one and a very common one that I see very few good answers too.
> 
> When starting out in all-grain brewing, there are so many questions! The funny thing is that with BIAB, _*many *_of them can be answered quickly and very well depending on your knowledge level.
> 
> Older brewers tend to forget just how bewildering and how fragmented internet information is on all-grain. It can be very hard for new brewers to get an answer to such a simple question as yours. Bribie has mentioned Brewmate and, of course, there is Beersmith which, in the next version, will have BIAB capabilities.
> 
> I spend quite a lot of time answering questions such as yours on BIABrewer.info and I either already have a dialogue going with the above software providers or have made repeated attempts to. I am hoping this dialogue will give some great results soon.
> 
> In the meantime, I have found the best way to explain volumes, gravities and bitterness is via a simple spreadsheet. While a simple spreadsheet still begs many questions it is, at least, on a single computer screen so it allows you to follow the logic of the brewing process and easily talk a common language.
> 
> I will attach a few of these spreadsheets here (anyone can distribute these as long as they credit the original source and explain that the most up to date version can only be found on that site.)
> 
> The first is the basic version of what is known for now as The Calculator. Studying this will hopefully answer your volumes question. Just take a bit of time to read each line - there is no quicker way I know of to get your next questions focussed.
> View attachment 44445
> 
> I will also attach a copy of a 'The Calculator' spreadsheet that shows a great APA recipe that originated here on AHB! Read the recipe layout here as well as it is a very good template for how recipes should be passed on.
> View attachment 44446
> 
> One of the great things about the above spreadsheet is it gives you a great ball-park figure for working out evaporation rates as it is based on the surface area of your kettle which is the most significant factor in determining evaporation rates. I have offered this to both Beersmith and Brewmate and Brad from Beersmith has responded enthusiastically so maybe we will see this as a Beersmith tool soon?
> 
> A lot of people apologise when they write a long post on a forum. I'm not going to John. I've been around long enough now to _*know*_ that many brewing questions can't be answered in a few lines - it is hardly _*ever*_ possible to instantly impregnate information.
> 
> So, I reckon, download the above files, grab yourself a nice beer and allow yourself a good half hour or hour to study 'The Calculator' files. You will have more questions so jot them down. Many will disappear on your second relaxed beer. The ones that are left, I or others will be most happy to answer here.
> 
> Cheers,
> Pat



Thanks for the advice. A recent aquaintance has invited me to witness his BIAB method so i am sure i will learn alot from the experience. Thanks for taking the time to reply. I have been brewing partial mash brews for the past couple of years and wish to take the next step. Its amazing who you meet at the Coopers Brewery tours and then back to the brewboys for a couple of maiden ales.


----------



## hsb

I will try some Gucci shoes in my next BIAB, it's an interesting idea but lace-ups or slip-ons?


----------



## going down a hill

I would go with the lace ups, add a bit more complexity to the brew and extra mouth feel.


----------



## hsb

LOL, there'll be an argument along shortly about that assertion - I've heard slip-ons create less tannins, I've been using espadrilles for 10 years and never had a bad batch etc..


----------



## Gormand

I would skip the lace ups in favour of the slips ons. I can see the laces soaking up flavours and detracting from the taste of the beer.
Im also curious, should I boil the bag or dry hop it?


----------



## marksfish

in "real" brewing you would add gumboots


----------



## hsb

Now we just look like nutters discussing shoe additions to BIAB. For the record, there was a madman selling Gucci Shoes a few posts back, honest.


----------



## Newbee(r)

hsb said:


> Now we just look like nutters discussing shoe additions to BIAB. For the record, there was a madman selling Gucci Shoes a few posts back, honest.




I amm about to purchase my crown urn (40l) etc from craft brewer, and wanted to know without searching 97 (!) pages of narrative if the commercial chillers will fit in the urn, such as the chillers sold on grain and grape? In my partials I have found chilling the wort makes a real difference and would prefer to ensure a solid cold break after mashout. 

Cheers 

Jake
(drinking pale ale with a generous dose of nelson hops)


----------



## Thirsty Boy

I have the biggest chiller from G&G and it fits in my 40L urn easily... But its not a crown urn. I really dont imagine you will have any trouble though. Most of the smaller chillers from G&G would do fit in it nearly twice.

If you have trouble, you can always opt for a plate chiller - no issues with fitting in anything then.


----------



## Newbee(r)

Awesome, and thanks for the quick reply. I have a watertank behind the garage so will just pump it through and back into the tank I've been doing partials for long enough and biab seems the ideal solution instead of forking out multiple bucks for a pretty herms.


----------



## Newbee(r)

picked up the grain and grape smaller chiller and bumped my wort from off boil to 24 degrees in 10 minutes. One verry happy customer :icon_cheers:


----------



## JestersDarts

hey babbers - 

I have made a quick video of my brewing process when I brewed last Friday - Its just an outline of the basics so someone who is trying to get their head around the BIAB process, or even just brewing all grain beer, can see it. I tried not to waffle, so its pretty concise  Its my first video too - so, of course, i think its awesome.
and yes, I don't boil in my urn - I transfer to another kettle - so its another take on BIAB i guess.
Anyway - I hope its useful to someone!



Cheers - Jack


----------



## brendanox

Great video!
Really helps me get my head around the method. 
Do you you do your brewing at a brewery? How do you get access?


----------



## Damian44

Hi peoples, my paint stirrer is past its use by date and im after a food grade replacement. Any ideas?

In my last brew i forgot to put in whirfloc in, will i be able to reuse the yeast?


TYVM Damian


----------



## Bribie G

So did you end up getting a fair bit of trub into the fermenter? If so then your "yeast" cake would probably only be partly yeast. You could take a smallish amount and culture it up then pitch that to give you a better cell count into the brew.

Was your paint stirrer plastic / flaking? One of these is everlasting.


----------



## Damian44

Bribie i did get a lot of trub into the fermenter. Ill get new yeast next time.

My paint stirrer looks like yours but the silver is peeling off the stem and it has a horrible metallic smell.


----------



## craigo

just wondering how you do a high gravity biab to make a 23 litre batch of beer in a 19l stock pot on the stove?


----------



## Bribie G

craigo said:


> just wondering how you do a high gravity biab to make a 23 litre batch of beer in a 19l stock pot on the stove?



here tis


----------



## pyrosx

Wow... that's just ******* special


----------



## davo4772

BIAB on Brewing TV

Linky


----------



## kelbygreen

like how he says it takes a hour longer. It is also one reason why I dont do BIAB it is not faster from what I thought when I started. But if you dont have the space or the money then it is a good way to brew. Its not a thing for me but I appreciate the system like any other but I find the easiest and best mothod for me.


----------



## Bribie G

An hour longer than what? In my case (around a 4 hour brew day) if there's a 3 hour option, please let me know


----------



## kelbygreen

maybe he said a hour shorter  as he said it was just over 3 hours. Mate as we know you can make the most out of your time! still cant believe I done a double and a single side by side with a decoction in the pils and both fly sparged, from cold water in the HLT's (used 20lt pot as my second HLT) to all the gear drying after wash up just over 4.5hrs.

I aint knocking BIAB I started on it and didnt like it from word go it wasnt me. I was doing 21lts into fermenter in 4.5hrs BIAB but I was just starting so it was a shit fight. My last brew day was a shit fight I had to make my HLT into a kettle on the day by bending some more copper so it was picking up from the side not the centre and I used hop cones in the HLT and it kept clogging up. Also took the QD off the double kettle and didnt turn the tap off :S that hurt! and fly sparging when you are heating a decoction mash isnt the best idea. 

I didnt think I would get it done in under 5 hrs I dont know how I did, I think the clocks stopped lol. But having 2 burners and being able to heat both mash water and boiling both wort at the same time is prob the main gain. 

It depends what you want and what you can afford I bought my gear over years and its paid for its self. If you go doubles get a pump as lifting a kettle from the floor to a burner is not good and few sessions at the chiropractor will soon pay that off lol


----------



## Brewman_

No matter what your process it will take a number of runs to understand how it all works and how to best optimise it.


----------



## RdeVjun

They're interesting guys, but FFS their 'number one challenge' in heat loss, has a number one answer: insulation.  I'd also suggest that anyone trying this at home without overcoming that challenge could try to distribute any added heat throughout the entire mash, not just the liquor.
I think it takes him an hour longer compared to extract brewing, that seems to be the implication.
Sparging is an 'option' all right, but deciding to sparge isn't equivalent to just using conventional 3V equipment (16:24), there's many other benefits- did anyone notice how hard it was to lauter and how few pieces of equipment there were? Sparging doesn't take longer either, I can't understand why that keeps coming up on the cons, the sparge step takes place while the kettle is coming up to the boil, it actually takes advantage of the time where you would ordinarily be standing around picking your nose anyway. However, in the stock/ no- sparge BIAB, which I'd suggest novices should be doing first, it becomes moot.
Nevertheless, I'd recommend the video to interested brewers as an intro with a demo and discussion around BIAB. :icon_cheers:


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

+1 on taking a few brews to get used to a system. I did that for stovetop BIAB and I did for ghetto Lauter Tun with an esky mash tun.

I think that for BIAB vs (my effectively a) 3V system (ghetto as it is) - the time is about the same, give or take half an hour (it can be longer with either).

Caveat on these is:

My BIAB is stovetop in 2 Big W pots (not the urn method), and I did sparge using a pasta insert into a 3rd 9L pot.

My current system (at the bottom of my sig) is mash in esky, lauter in ghetto lauter, boil on stove in two pots (splitting the initial runnings and the sparge runnings).

Both take around the same time. The time I wasted squeezing and sparging in BIAB is about equivalent to the lautering, manual recirc of the first runnings and sparging.

The big difference is that the current method is less backbreaking, less messy (a misdirected bag is never a pretty thing), more efficient and the runnings are way clearer, meaning a clearer beer.

Goomba


----------



## Bribie G

The thing that turns most people off BIAB when they first try it is the bag  
Whilst BIAB is touted as the simplest and easiest way to start AG brewing - I believe that anyone going into full volume BIAB (we aren't talking about stovetop methods here) in an urn or keggle or 60L Blichmann pot or whatever should concentrate on the bag handling side of things before they even start. 

Most BIAB guides tend to gloss over this aspect "Now you simply raise the bag, drain it and dispose of the spent grain". Yeah. 

I recommend a sky hook with a pulley - my double pulley system cost less than $30, buying the bits from a market stall - as first choice. Otherwise find somewhere, anywhere, stable where you can safely hang it. 
With full volume methods sparging is not necessary, I only sparge when I'm doing big beers over around 6%. My brew day with the pulley system is smooth as, there is never any danger of a hot wet bag getting out of control, and I'm able to very easily do things that esky mashers find difficult, such as mashouts and step mashes. 

On LRGs point, if you are referring to clearer wort INTO the kettle producing clearer beer, this is a fallacy. Just anecdotally I wish I had ten bucks for every time someone at a beer club meeting says "hey Bribie, do you filter?".


----------



## felten

guy needs a bigger bag


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Bribie G said:


> On LRGs point, if you are referring to clearer wort INTO the kettle producing clearer beer, this is a fallacy. Just anecdotally I wish I had ten bucks for every time someone at a beer club meeting says "hey Bribie, do you filter?".



You're probably right. Especially if you no-chill - it's a moot point, because the break stays in the cube and the fermenter cops the clearer beer.

But..... I do end up with clearer beer in and out. It may be something concurrent with the change in methodology. 

I've always chilled and have whirlpooled for the last 2 years, so it isn't this.

So I'm not espousing it as an absolute fact, just what I've found in moving to the ghetto-iest 3V system in humanity.

If I had a pulley and an urn, I'd be doing BIAB - just because it's a space-efficient, easy to operate and easy to store system and I still feel like a BIABer, even if I'm not.

But I have a stovetop and a tight budget, so if 2 x food grade buckets and a bit of dodgy DIY is enough for me to get good beer, I'll do that.


----------



## Aces High

Bribie G said:


> The thing that turns most people off BIAB when they first try it is the bag
> Whilst BIAB is touted as the simplest and easiest way to start AG brewing - I believe that anyone going into full volume BIAB (we aren't talking about stovetop methods here) in an urn or keggle or 60L Blichmann pot or whatever should concentrate on the bag handling side of things before they even start.
> 
> Most BIAB guides tend to gloss over this aspect "Now you simply raise the bag, drain it and dispose of the spent grain". Yeah.
> 
> I recommend a sky hook with a pulley - my double pulley system cost less than $30, buying the bits from a market stall - as first choice. Otherwise find somewhere, anywhere, stable where you can safely hang it.
> With full volume methods sparging is not necessary, I only sparge when I'm doing big beers over around 6%. My brew day with the pulley system is smooth as, there is never any danger of a hot wet bag getting out of control, and I'm able to very easily do things that esky mashers find difficult, such as mashouts and step mashes.
> 
> On LRGs point, if you are referring to clearer wort INTO the kettle producing clearer beer, this is a fallacy. Just anecdotally I wish I had ten bucks for every time someone at a beer club meeting says "hey Bribie, do you filter?".




+1 on the skyhook, i dont know how i ever did the first ones without it. I now only do double batches with around 10kg of grain (dry) . I lift the bag via the skyhook with one hand and use the other hand to direct it over to the bucket and lower it, I hardly spill a drop. I've got a dedicated trolley for my 114L pot, so i just roll the whole thing outside once finished and hose it all down. 

Its clean, easy, and 3 hours start to finish and i get clear beer, but now the obsession is overtaking me and Im building recirculating herms systems, metal pot inserts to get rid of the bag and all sorts of other things... Why am I trying to make this easy brewing method harder????


----------



## Bribie G

Now all you need is an Arduino


----------



## PistolPatch

Long time no see guys 


felten said:


> guy needs a bigger bag


Yes, that was bit unfortunate :huh:. Probe thermometers aren't the most convenient thing either IMO. In fact, relying on a single instrument is something I never like to do as there are so many variances between instruments.

*A quick 'BIAB' Update*

Quite a few thousand hours have been spent behind the scenes at BIABrewer.info working on turning the original "The Calculator" into a 'real' bit of software with some really practical features that will be excellent for both BIAB and traditional brewers. It will probably take around another 6 months before you see anything unfortunately. The complexity of the software is far more than a simple spreadsheet can support though we did try .

Because of this I haven't had time to brew for 11 months so over Easter I didn't do any work on the "BIABacus". I brewed 6 double batches instead (3 sessions of 2 recipes done side 3 side totalling 240 L of beer). I also took lots of measurements as the more we get the better we can make the software.

Here's a few observations...

Efficiency: The grain bills ranged from 8.9 kg to 12.5 kg. The average of the pre and post-boil efficiencies were 80.6%, 85.3%, 85.9% 86.6%, 89.4% and 90.7%. I have a fairly fine bag and so just give a bit of a squeeze with gloves. These results help to confirm that we certainly get good efficiencies from BIAB.

Sparging: Of the 6 double batches, I sparged 3. The gain by sparging was 1%, 1.1% and 1.4%. (In fact, for the three non-sparged brews, I actually held 5 litres back as I couldn't fit it in the kettle. These 5 litres never contacted the grain.) Whilst I personally don't believe in figures from a small sample size and, I do regard this as a small sample size, I do feel that for now at least, if you can put all your brewing water in at the start then you are better off doing this especially with bigger batch sizes as sparging becomes a very clumsy PITA.

When your BIABing becomes clumsy or difficult, it's definitely time to see if you are making it more complicated than it should be. As the guys above have mentioned, a rope system really makes the whole process simple. Just leave it hang there while you wait for the boil. At the boil, a quick squeeze and dump.

Clumsiness is definitely not what BIAB is about.

:icon_cheers: PP


----------



## kelbygreen

so you are still doing BIAB??? is all your brews BIAB or do you prefer another method?? I aint trying to prove anything just good to see one of the originals and always wondered if they are still brewing like this and if there where any changes.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

PistolPatch said:


> Long time no see guys
> 
> Yes, that was bit unfortunate :huh: . Probe thermometers aren't the most convenient thing either IMO. In fact, relying on a single instrument is something I never like to do as there are so many variances between instruments.
> 
> *A quick 'BIAB' Update*
> 
> Quite a few thousand hours have been spent behind the scenes at BIABrewer.info working on turning the original "The Calculator" into a 'real' bit of software with some really practical features that will be excellent for both BIAB and traditional brewers. It will probably take around another 6 months before you see anything unfortunately. The complexity of the software is far more than a simple spreadsheet can support though we did try  .
> 
> Because of this I haven't had time to brew for 11 months so over Easter I didn't do any work on the "BIABacus". I brewed 6 double batches instead (3 sessions of 2 recipes done side 3 side totalling 240 L of beer). I also took lots of measurements as the more we get the better we can make the software.
> 
> Here's a few observations...
> 
> Efficiency: The grain bills ranged from 8.9 kg to 12.5 kg. The average of the pre and post-boil efficiencies were 80.6%, 85.3%, 85.9% 86.6%, 89.4% and 90.7%. I have a fairly fine bag and so just give a bit of a squeeze with gloves. These results help to confirm that we certainly get good efficiencies from BIAB.
> 
> Sparging: Of the 6 double batches, I sparged 3. The gain by sparging was 1%, 1.1% and 1.4%. (In fact, for the three non-sparged brews, I actually held 5 litres back as I couldn't fit it in the kettle. These 5 litres never contacted the grain.) Whilst I personally don't believe in figures from a small sample size and, I do regard this as a small sample size, I do feel that for now at least, if you can put all your brewing water in at the start then you are better off doing this especially with bigger batch sizes as sparging becomes a very clumsy PITA.
> 
> When your BIABing becomes clumsy or difficult, it's definitely time to see if you are making it more complicated than it should be. As the guys above have mentioned, a rope system really makes the whole process simple. Just leave it hang there while you wait for the boil. At the boil, a quick squeeze and dump.
> 
> Clumsiness is definitely not what BIAB is about.
> 
> :icon_cheers: PP



I am clumsy and I don't own a skyhook.

I don't find it difficult conceptually, but anything to counter my lack of co-ordination is a winner in my mind.

Honestly, if I'm shelling out for an urn - from a cost/analysis perspective, ghetto wins. To do BIAB with a "regular" kettle, I need gas.

So from a cost/analysis/equipment/brewer is unbelievably clumsy point (and useless with tools) of view, I'm happier with the system I have.

However, I love BIAB for getting me into AG, and if I go for an urn, and obtain a skyhook, I'm pretty sure I'll be doing BIAB again.

And totally respect that many BIABers (such as Bribie and PP) are better brewers than I am (and probably better co-ordinated).

Goomba


----------



## Bribie G

kelbygreen said:


> so you are still doing BIAB??? is all your brews BIAB or do you prefer another method?? I aint trying to prove anything just good to see one of the originals and always wondered if they are still brewing like this and if there where any changes.



Over the years I've observed that people going from BIAB to other systems usually do so for a certain reason, not ease or efficiency. The main reason often seems to be the ability to do double or triple batches. 
There's also a desire for "reproducibility" of a favourite brew but I have no problems at all in producing a perfectly standard wort from brew to brew (My American Wheat for example) so I think this is a bit of a furphy. Some people have a mindset that BIAB is somehow a "seat of the pants, let's wing it and see where we end up" system. Not so. 

If I start with a standard amount of strike water at a certain temp and certain mineral content, mash at a certain temp which I can calculate accurately knowing the weight and temperature of the grain etc. Then mash for an exact time, with steps if necessary, I'm going to get the same wort every time. I'd say that batch to batch fluctuations in grains would have far more effect on reproducibility than anything I'm doing. 
Commercial breweries employ rooms full of techs to control this aspect, it's an important factor. 

Also as in any hobby there are the techies who just love to get into their machine shop with their lathe and program their Arduino (one of these days I'll have to find out what one of those is  ) but at the end of the day, BIAB or 3v or Herms is just one step in grain to brain, namely sweet wort production. You can produce identical worts from brew to brew but when you pitch and forget to switch on your fridge and remember with horror as you are sitting in the office, reproducibility has just flown the coop :lol:


----------



## Deebo

Tip: A Ladder leant up against a wall over your bag is a portable skyhook.


----------



## DU99

did anyone notice if there was false bottom..he run's the gas to bring up the heat wouldn't that run the risk of scorching the bag.


----------



## felten

Not sure what he had in his kettle. But when I'm heating the mash I will constantly stir it, no need for a FB in that case.



Deebo said:


> Tip: A Ladder leant up against a wall over your bag is a portable skyhook.



Ditto here, I've done this before when brewing outside, just open an A-frame ladder over the kettle and use that to help hoist the bag.


----------



## PistolPatch

As quickly as I can...

*kelbygreen:* I began batch-sparging and then BIAB'ed. (A bit of the history of BIAB can be found by reading the first two or three posts of this thread.) I now only BIAB. I now have two BIAB rigs so this lets me do two side by side brews with only two kettles and two burners. When I brew, I try and do something different in each kettle so I learn something and so as to get better figures on BIAB brewing. BIABrewer.info is where I mainly post now due to time constraints.

*Lord Raja:* Lol! I couldn't understand some bits of your last post but you should always post info on what makes you change systems as it help everyone else. For example, I'm not sure what your first BIAB system was - electric, gas etc. Also when you say that I or Bribie are probably better brewers than you, that is not right. There is no mystery to brewing great beer. The main thing is finding good recipes and not allowing subtle infections to slowly creep into your equipment. Clumsiness is perfectly okay .

*Bribie_G:* Totally agree with Bribie's comments bar one thing. It's a bit of a misconception that double-batches are hard to do with BIAB. All my brews (except experiments) are now always double batches. I actually used to do double batches without a pulley. Now I have one, I would never go back . Very nice post Bribie!

...



kelbygreen said:


> so you are still doing BIAB??? is all your brews BIAB or do you prefer another method?? I aint trying to prove anything just good to see one of the originals and always wondered if they are still brewing like this and if there where any changes.


Well, kelbygreen, it must be 6 years or so now and the only thing that has changed is that I am now totally confident in making claims about BIAB. I still try and gather figures and numbers but most of these now are not BIAB-dependent, they apply to traditional _*and*_ BIAB all-grain methods.

The majority of my time now is spent not questioning BIAB but rather exploring ways in which all-grain brewing can be made easier for new brewers to understand.


Pat


----------



## Brewman_

PistolPatch said:


> *Bribie_G:* Totally agree with Bribie's comments bar one thing. It's a bit of a misconception that double-batches are hard to do with BIAB. All my brews (except experiments) are now always double batches. I actually used to do double batches without a pulley. Now I have one, I would never go back  . Very nice post Bribie!
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> I have done many single batch BIAB without a pulley, but as part of going to double batch BIAB I also use a Pulley system. It makes the process so much easier and safer. I can now pull a 10Kg bag of wet grain out of the kettle with one hand, no strain at all.
> Agree with Bribie and Pistol, a pulley system helps a lot.
> 
> Fear


----------



## kelbygreen

very well writing Pat. Now I dont bag BIAB I think its great, I could see things in a 3V that I thought made it more for me. Now I only done BIAB for a bit and never in a true form so cant comment on the side. The main changes for me (and was prob self inflicted on my BIAB rig) was, clearer wort, better efficiency, better control and more repeatability (havnt got to the last one yet but working my way there) now I am sure this can be done on BIAB. 

My system is minimal effort I would say about the same as a BIAB rig but I gotto turn a few valves and hit a rocker switch for the pump. I do double batches so dont have to lift the grain out I scoop it out when the kettle is on its way to boil and tun is cleaned up usually before first hops go in.

BIAB is a great way to start and to brew. I always said even before I done a AG batch BIAB was not for me so maybe I got it into my mind set, maybe I couldnt see best of it but it was always a step for me. I will add that I prob am not making better beer but I am making the process easier and less hastle for me. 

I dont flame any sort of brewing we all have our ways and what I think will be different to what you think and they will both be different to what the next person thinks but its this thats got brewing to this point I guess


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

*Lord Raja:* Lol! I couldn't understand some bits of your last post but you should always post info on what makes you change systems as it help everyone else. For example, I'm not sure what your first BIAB system was - electric, gas etc. Also when you say that I or Bribie are probably better brewers than you, that is not right. There is no mystery to brewing great beer. The main thing is finding good recipes and not allowing subtle infections to slowly creep into your equipment. Clumsiness is perfectly okay .
[/quote]

Hey PP:

My current method is in my sig. My previous adjustment to BIAB (for my equipment/circumstances) - I posted in Nick_JD's thread (either the >$30 thread, or guide to all grain brewing on a stove). Both with pics and descriptions.

For the sake of posterity - my BIAB method was a 2 big w pot on the stove, 2 bags, a sparge method and very very cheap.

Yes, I made it harder by being stingy - but realistically, when one starts talking skyhooks and urns - and their cost outlay, I start getting nervous - especially getting the expense past the Minister of War, Finance and Saying No. Much easier and cheaper to get the ghetto system up and running (again, the use of existing home equipment, rather than buying new stuff).

As for recipes - currently using Tony's Monteith OA clone (smells great), but normally formulate my own recipes, and IMHO I have a bit of knack for formulating recipes. Absolutely anal about sanitising, no issues there.

Just can't nail down a BB recipe that I'm happy with. But I make a mean APA/AIPA.

The comment about you both being better brewers, is that you've done AG longer than me, have won comps and as a caveat to saying "this is what works for my, but other brewers do different and they are great brewers".


----------



## Spinniker

Hey guys,

Went to spotlight and all the had was a colored Swiss voile. Grabbed 2mtrs of it but has anyone used the cored stuff? Think there will be any problems?

I might put it into some boiling water for a while to see if the color leaches.

Thanks


----------



## Diggs

Got mine last night from Spotlight (QLD Everton Park) $8/m2


----------



## QldKev

Spinniker said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Went to spotlight and all the had was a colored Swiss voile. Grabbed 2mtrs of it but has anyone used the cored stuff? Think there will be any problems?
> 
> I might put it into some boiling water for a while to see if the color leaches.
> 
> Thanks



Get the pink stuff, you will be ok. (unless ya mates see you)


----------



## mondestrunken

Deebo said:


> Tip: A Ladder leant up against a wall over your bag is a portable skyhook.



Great tip, thanks. But I can't cope with ladders leaning up against walls since The Ring.


----------



## stux

QldKev said:


> Get the pink stuff, you will be ok. (unless ya mates see you)



The mocha one should be okay, the bag will end up that colour after your first stout anyway 

I went for ivory


----------



## Spinniker

Stux said:


> The mocha one should be okay, the bag will end up that colour after your first stout anyway
> 
> I went for ivory




Thanks pink it is. Only color they had. Guess it will be fine. Will test it first. Guess if I clean it in bleach it might end up white anyway.


----------



## Crusty

Another Biab complete yesterday. I did a JSGA clone with great results again.
If you are using BrewMate, it's pretty important to test the temp of your milled grain & adjust strike temp accordingly.
I had my grain temp set at 20.0deg & the actual grain temp was 31.1 so I ended up over shooting my strike in temp by almost 2deg.
Aiming for 66deg & ended up at 68deg so frantically aerated the mash & around 5mins later it settled at 66.2deg. Lid on & covered for 90mins.
Mash out after the sacc rest & hoisted the bag. I was aiming for a finished volume of 23lt @1.048 & ended up with 23.5lt @1.048 giving me 81% efficiency into the cube.


----------



## Bribie G

Agreed about the grain temperature, it varies a lot during the year and the grain temp feature in BrewMate is really good. It's particulary important in BIAB because when you have doughed in, as it's full volume and what you've got what is youv'e got, it's very hard to adjust temp quickly, especially to cool it.


----------



## Crusty

Bribie G said:


> Agreed about the grain temperature, it varies a lot during the year and the grain temp feature in BrewMate is really good. It's particulary important in BIAB because when you have doughed in, as it's full volume and what you've got what is youv'e got, it's very hard to adjust temp quickly, especially to cool it.


It's a great feature & I have found all expected gravities, volumes & temps are spot on. I just got side tracked getting everything ready & didn't even think to check the grain temp. Temperatures here have been nearing the 40deg mark so it was bloody hot in the shed yesterday. I don't think the beer fridge has switched off in the last couple of days with my beer temp set @3deg.


----------



## Crusty

Just completed another Biab with a recipe I found on the net.
I measured my crushed grain this time & nailed my mash temp spot on.
Marris Otter Ale Malt, Dark Caramalt & a touch of Special - B.
I'ts an APA using Magnum, Centennial & Cascade. Yeast is Denny Conn Ale, 1450.
Recipe called for 23lt @1.054. I ended up with 23lt @1.056 giving me 82% efficiency into the cube.
Smells & tastes really good so looking forward to fermenting this one.


----------



## tonyt

Hi all,

I jumped into biab a couple of weeks ago after barls was kind enough to let me watch him brew 3v,and was pleasantly surprised how painless it was. My efficiency was only 67% but at that stage I was more interested in the process rather than understanding what I was actually trying to achieve. The chilling part was a Pita

Skip 2 weeks and some kind info from Crusty my second biab was a recipe crusty sent me which I did yesterday and hit 81% efficiency! What did I do different?

1. Asked brew shop to run grain twice through mill.
2. Made sure temp was back up to 66 after adding grain
3. Checked temp after 60 min and brought back to 66 while stirring then let rest another 30 min
4. Mashed out a little more vigorously to reach 78
5. Lifted bag and squeezed more than first biab
6. Held back 5 litres from start and did a dunk sparge.....I don't think this did much though as liquid that this yielded was almost clear........I don't think I'll bother with the sparging in future was a paid anyways 

I swapped my immersion chiller for the larger one, used the rainwater tank, stirring every 10 min and got to pitching temp in 50 min

So I am happy I sorted out the efficiency and chilling issues and now look forward to some good beers!

Cheers


----------



## fletcher

well done mate.

can i ask how long you kept your pot at mash out temp before increasing to boil?

i did my second biab and got about 77% too after mashing out at proper temps, squeezing a bit, and batch sparging with correct temp water...was amazing. i love biab...so easy.

what's the basics of a dunk sparge?_ (yes i know i can look i'm just being lazy)_

i think a big part of my increased efficiency for my second biab was the sparge; basically put the grain bag on a mesh plate, over a bucket and heated my 2L of water, then slowly poured it over the top, covering all the bag slowly.


----------



## tonyt

Hey Fletch,

As soon as i got to 78 i hoisted bag up and cranked up heat to start boil. I held back 5 litres from start water and heated to 78, put bag in 20 L bucket, opened and poured water over grain than closed and dunked bag up and down in liquid a few times, lifted and squeezd out water and added to kettle.
Dont know if thats a " proper" dunk sparge but thats how i understood it when i read it somwhere. Don't know if the sparge was worth the effort though, as i said the water it yielded was almost clear.

Cheers


----------



## Oakers

I too saw an increase in efficiency when, after receiving advice on here, I did mash-out at 78 as tonyt describes. I also run my grain through my mill twice, make sure i do a bit of vigorous pumping of the mash with my mash paddle (the ol paint stirrer) at least once during mashing, and give the bag a good old squeeze once i have it in a bucket. I also agree that I don't reckon sparging is worth the effort as I'm now achieving efficiency in mid to high 70s without it. IMHO it's much easier to add just a little extra grain. The most important thing is to understand what factors affect your process so that you can get consistency, especially if you really want to nail your OG. Of course most of the time a few points of OG either way won't matter.

Oakers.


----------



## fletcher

tonyt said:


> Hey Fletch,
> 
> As soon as i got to 78 i hoisted bag up and cranked up heat to start boil. I held back 5 litres from start water and heated to 78, put bag in 20 L bucket, opened and poured water over grain than closed and dunked bag up and down in liquid a few times, lifted and squeezd out water and added to kettle.
> Dont know if thats a " proper" dunk sparge but thats how i understood it when i read it somwhere. Don't know if the sparge was worth the effort though, as i said the water it yielded was almost clear.
> 
> Cheers


ah yeah similar to what i did except i didn't dunk the bag up and down; i felt as though the grains might still soak up and contain some of that sexysugar...have no scientific reasoning to back that up though haha. mine wasn't clear when i just trickled the water through. i wonder if that might make it better for you? i'd be interested to know if that helped me at all...the liquid was quite brown and 'worty' looking when i did it *shrug* probably a bunch of things helped the efficiency so it's hard to say i suppose.




Oakers said:


> I too saw an increase in efficiency when, after receiving advice on here, I did mash-out at 78 as tonyt describes. I also run my grain through my mill twice, make sure i do a bit of vigorous pumping of the mash with my mash paddle (the ol paint stirrer) at least once during mashing, and give the bag a good old squeeze once i have it in a bucket. I also agree that I don't reckon sparging is worth the effort as I'm now achieving efficiency in mid to high 70s without it. IMHO it's much easier to add just a little extra grain. The most important thing is to understand what factors affect your process so that you can get consistency, especially if you really want to nail your OG. Of course most of the time a few points of OG either way won't matter.
> 
> Oakers.


very true mate. i might consider trying without it next time, although to be honest, it didn't take all that long and wasn't much of a hindrance (might be in future if i'm looking to stream line the process). i was happy with 77% with it. when would you add the extra grain if you were too far below your OG? and how would that be calculated?


----------



## yum beer

Stick with the rinse step Fletch, I get about an extra 4-5% eff increase when I do it, gotta remember you arent rinsing the grain with a long sparge as you would 3V,plenty of goodness to get out
of the grains.
And squeeze the bag well when finished, you'll need gloves but there is a lot of 'sexysugars' still in there.


----------



## Truman42

@Fletch..Hes talking about adding extra grain in your original recipe instead. Set your efficiency lower in brewmate say 70% instead of 75% and it will increase the maltbill.

i always did a batch sparge when doing BIAB as it allowed me to top up my boil ketle with the water lost due to grain absorption. But minstead of just dunking the bag in a bucke of water i would open the bag up and stir the grains with my mash paddle every couple of minutes for about ten minutes. Then drain the bag into the bucket and pour this into the boil kettle. It would take my boil volume from 12 litres up to 18 litres whch was the capacity of my urn.

Often I would do this a second time if I still needed more volume.

if your only getting clear water from your dunk sparge as tonyt is your not doing it right or your bag is the wrong material and the holes are too tight.


----------



## fletcher

Truman said:


> @Fletch..Hes talking about adding extra grain in your original recipe instead. Set your efficiency lower in brewmate say 70% instead of 75% and it will increase the maltbill.
> 
> i always did a batch sparge when doing BIAB as it allowed me to top up my boil ketle with the water lost due to grain absorption. But minstead of just dunking the bag in a bucke of water i would open the bag up and stir the grains with my mash paddle every couple of minutes for about ten minutes. Then drain the bag into the bucket and pour this into the boil kettle. It would take my boil volume from 12 litres up to 18 litres whch was the capacity of my urn...


that's almost like a mini-secondary-mash hey. I like the sound of that, it doesn't sound like too much additional work; particularly if you can easily hit OG with that. I was pretty happy with my set up for sparging but I might adapt it to that one. cheers for the idea.

@yumbeer - sexysugars is where it's at


----------



## sp0rk

Just on the topic of using gloves to give your bag a good squeeze *wink*
what does everyone use?
I can't decide between a new pair of washing up gloves or big thick chemical handling gloves
I'd assume both would give off a nasty rubbery taste/smell, wouldn't they?


----------



## fletcher

sp0rk said:


> Just on the topic of using gloves to give your bag a good squeeze *wink*
> what does everyone use?
> I can't decide between a new pair of washing up gloves or big thick chemical handling gloves
> I'd assume both would give off a nasty rubbery taste/smell, wouldn't they?


I've just done it bare-handed mate (lol at the connotations here haha), and not squeezed the bag per se, but just above it, kinda pushing down onto it through a rubber coated muffin/cake cooler that sits atop my pot. I twisted the bag a good few times too which helped with the squeezing. I'm sure there's a better way but I don't wanna risk the rubbery or whatever smell from using gloves (although that's just me being pedantic).


----------



## Amber Fluid

When I used to squeeze the bag, I just used washing up gloves and never had any issues. However, I no longer squeeze but just shake it a bit.


----------



## tonyt

I used two saucepan lids like symbols

Cheers


----------



## wbosher

tonyt said:


> I used two saucepan lids like symbols
> 
> Cheers


 I used to just use my hands, but after seeing someone else post this method somewhere else a while back (possibly even you tony), I do this now. Painless and easy.


----------



## Amber Fluid

Bribie's method is cool too. If I remember correctly he sits a wire fridge shelf on top of a bucket and sandwiches it between another fridge shelf. Think there's some pics floating around somewhere.


----------



## tonyt

Nah, wasn't my idea, i read it here too, but am happy to take the credit for it.

Cheers


----------



## Andrewbarnes83

Hi guys, I recently started doing biab but when I ordered my grain I forgot to ask for some acidulated malt to correct the ph (my LHBS normally add about 100 grams I think). Can the the ph be adjusted with epsom salts and if so, how much would I need?

Thanks


----------



## Dan2

Andrewbarnes83 said:


> Hi guys, I recently started doing biab but when I ordered my grain I forgot to ask for some acidulated malt to correct the ph (my LHBS normally add about 100 grams I think). Can the the ph be adjusted with epsom salts and if so, how much would I need?
> 
> Thanks


Epsom won't change much. It will drop pH a little, but about half as effective as Gypsum and Calcium Chloride.
All will affect the end flavour, and a number of other things.

To use salts effectively, you need to get a grasp of what they will do and what you wish to achieve with them. Don't be afraid of learning though.
It's not easy when you start reading, or listening to podcasts, but somewhere along the line something will click and it all just seems pretty straight forward.

Sorry I can't give you a straight up "add a teaspoon of x and y and she'll be right" answer, but each grist and water combo (and hops too I suppose) requires different amounts of salts


----------



## danestead

Andrewbarnes83 said:


> Hi guys, I recently started doing biab but when I ordered my grain I forgot to ask for some acidulated malt to correct the ph (my LHBS normally add about 100 grams I think). Can the the ph be adjusted with epsom salts and if so, how much would I need?
> 
> Thanks


I think I read the other day someone adding citric acid to their mash. Maybe do a search for that to see if it is a suitable alternative for this brew. Personally, I use lactic acid. Its the same acid that is found on your acidulated malt.


----------



## Dan2

danestead said:


> I think I read the other day someone adding citric acid to their mash. Maybe do a search for that to see if it is a suitable alternative for this brew. Personally, I use lactic acid. Its the same acid that is found on your acidulated malt.


Good point danestead - I should have mentioned this. If you aren't ready to jump into salts, and you're only looking at dropping the mash pH, Lactic Acid is ideal.


----------



## brewermp

Just curious how long brew days are for people around here. With a 90min mash and 60 min boil im usually hitting 5 hours from go to wo. Just curious on other BIABers. I'm a no chiller btw


----------



## takai

brewermp said:


> Just curious how long brew days are for people around here. With a 90min mash and 60 min boil im usually hitting 5 hours from go to wo. Just curious on other BIABers. I'm a no chiller btw


On Australia Day i managed to get two brews in from 9:30-5pm. Both with 90min boils and 90min mashes. Was very bloody tight, and involved getting the strike water ready for the second brew before the first one was tapped. But it worked.

Also for BIAB, what do people use for grain bags for higher grain bills. Im finding that my bags are seriously unhappy with much more than 6kg of grain, to the point that for my 10kg grain bill i split it into 2x5kg bags and nested them inside each other.


----------



## fletcher

takai said:


> On Australia Day i managed to get two brews in from 9:30-5pm. Both with 90min boils and 90min mashes. Was very bloody tight, and involved getting the strike water ready for the second brew before the first one was tapped. But it worked.
> 
> Also for BIAB, what do people use for grain bags for higher grain bills. Im finding that my bags are seriously unhappy with much more than 6kg of grain, to the point that for my 10kg grain bill i split it into 2x5kg bags and nested them inside each other.


i recently got a heavy duty bag from the site sponsor - craftbrewer, and it's awesome. not affiliated by any means. the bag is strong as all hell and reinforced. other people have used materials and have made their own bags (but i'm all thumbs with that). there are a few threads on making your own bag on here i'm sure.


----------



## Bribie G

Bags ain't bags

big circle of Swiss Voile, hem round the outside and learn to do a hangman's noose to hoist the thing.

No seams to weaken, hangs like a teardrop and to clean as you dump the grain, (dump then flap flap) then rinse the sheet and hang to dry, or Napisan overnight if you wish.


----------



## takai

Still 10kg to haul out though. The bags tend to not break at the seams but through the weave. 

Tempted to drill a bunch of holes in my busted 19L BigW pot and put it in there.


----------



## brewermp

fletcher said:


> i recently got a heavy duty bag from the site sponsor - craftbrewer, and it's awesome. not affiliated by any means. the bag is strong as all hell and reinforced. other people have used materials and have made their own bags (but i'm all thumbs with that). there are a few threads on making your own bag on here i'm sure.


+1 for craft brewer. Strong bag.


----------



## contrarian

Would have to agree with the craftbrewer bag. Did an IPA over the weekend with about 15kg of grain and it held up fine.


----------



## Blind Dog

Bribie G said:


> Bags ain't bags
> 
> big circle of Swiss Voile, hem round the outside and learn to do a hangman's noose to hoist the thing.


You don't even need to hem, you can just gently heat the outer edge of the circle over a low flame and the very edge will melt so that you end up with a nice neat edge that doesn't fray.


----------



## Bribie G

I've had bags from Craftbrewer, From Nev in Perth and had 2 made by a local seamstress. Ended up giving them all away and using a circle of voile I bought in 2011 for around 11 dollars. I bought a backup in 2012 when I moved down here. Still in drawer.
Advantage of the sheet is that you take it out to the veg garden, grab at one point, pull to deposit grain, go flap flap and rinse off. Trivial.
Standing at sink with a running tap trying to hunt down every little bit of grain and turning bag inside then out was a PITA


----------



## contrarian

to clean my bag I usually just turn it inside out, hang it on the clothes line and hose, every few brew I put it through a short wash cycle with some sodium perc has never seemed to onerous to me.


----------



## Nick667

> Another Biab complete yesterday. I did a JSGA clone with great results again.
> If you are using BrewMate, it's pretty important to test the temp of your milled grain & adjust strike temp accordingly.
> I had my grain temp set at 20.0deg & the actual grain temp was 31.1 so I ended up over shooting my strike in temp by almost 2deg.
> Aiming for 66deg & ended up at 68deg so frantically aerated the mash & around 5mins later it settled at 66.2deg. Lid on & covered for 90mins.
> Mash out after the sacc rest & hoisted the bag. I was aiming for a finished volume of 23lt @1.048 & ended up with 23.5lt @1.048 giving me 81% efficiency into the cube.
> [/quote
> 
> 
> How do I set grain temp on Brewmate?
> I use it but I cant see grain temp and it is always a guess.


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## Rambo

Click on the "Brew Day" button on the right hand side of the screen. Inside, there is a section to change the grain temp (in the "mash" section).


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## fletcher

Bribie G said:


> I've had bags from Craftbrewer, From Nev in Perth and had 2 made by a local seamstress. Ended up giving them all away and using a circle of voile I bought in 2011 for around 11 dollars. I bought a backup in 2012 when I moved down here. Still in drawer.
> Advantage of the sheet is that you take it out to the veg garden, grab at one point, pull to deposit grain, go flap flap and rinse off. Trivial.
> Standing at sink with a running tap trying to hunt down every little bit of grain and turning bag inside then out was a PITA


agree with this however recently i've just got as much out as possible, hang it out, and let the rest of the grains dry on it. after a few hours or what not, i just come and shake it, and the rest of them just fall off.

EDIT: crap, sorry. just replied to a very old post :unsure:


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## Coodgee

was up in Townsville earlier in the year and stopped into a HB shop there. "let me show you this new method mate, it's called brew in a bag". I said I had I new all about it and he replied " I don't think so mate, this is brand new". I was just thinking to myself that it was being done on here by PP more than 10 years ago!!


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## Waratah67

I have never found a home brew shop owner that is respectful of online forums and the ideas that come from them. Whenever I try and discuss an idea that I have got from AHB they schoff and sneer.


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## quantum8

Coodgee said:


> was up in Townsville earlier in the year and stopped into a HB shop there. "let me show you this new method mate, it's called brew in a bag". I said I had I new all about it and he replied " I don't think so mate, this is brand new". I was just thinking to myself that it was being done on here by PP more than 10 years ago!!


Townsville...so up with the times.

Shoulda shown him the posts from a few years ago and see if he tried to backpeddle.


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## Coodgee

I find some/most retail home brew shops don't know much about AG at all, and why would they, there is not a lot of dollars in it for them. They seem to be finding more profit in spirit cordials if you look at the movements in product range over the years.


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## Lowlyf

Waratah67 said:


> I have never found a home brew shop owner that is respectful of online forums and the ideas that come from them. Whenever I try and discuss an idea that I have got from AHB they schoff and sneer.


Don't know if I can say this, but **** em. There is so much information on here it's beyond ridiculous. And everyone is willing to make everyone a better brewer without smart ass comments and snide remarks. It's quite refreshing because I've been through mini truck forums, car forums, body building forums. This one is by far the best


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## Rocker1986

Next week he'll be in awe of this new fangled electricity thing...


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## marc280

I agree about the lack of home brew shops wanting to have anything to do with all grain. I've been into a couple that just say that all grain is too much trouble and I should just stick to buying their extract. 

I've since found The Barley Man locally and they have been great. Plenty of advice and knowledge of grains.


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## PistolPatch

Coodgee said:


> was up in Townsville earlier in the year and stopped into a HB shop there. "let me show you this new method mate, it's called brew in a bag". I said I had I new all about it and he replied " I don't think so mate, this is brand new". I was just thinking to myself that it was being done on here by PP more than 10 years ago!!


Hey there fella . Wow, it's been such a long time since we had a beer! Great to see you are still into it and haven't forgotten the humble beginnings :beer: .
I'm having a bit of a writing break atm after having written over four million words between this site and BIABrewer.info, not to mention the work on the BIABacus etc., :blink:. Am hoping the break will re-energise my brain enough to push some of these post-BIAB breakthroughs over the hill and into a lot more brewer's arms.

Many thanks for the mention Coodgee.

Pat


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## Steve

Waratah67 said:


> I have never found a home brew shop owner that is respectful of online forums and the ideas that come from them. Whenever I try and discuss an idea that I have got from AHB they schoff and sneer.


Thats a shame to hear. On a daily basis (usually multiple times) I refer to AHB and BIABrewer to new brewers that want to get into AG. I learnt everything I know from here and the old Grumpys site. I give them them whole speal (sp?) that BIAB has only been around 8-9 years and in the early days it got such a hammering on here but now it has proved its worth and is a great, simple and cheap way to produce bloody good beer!. Spotya Pat!. Cheers
Steve


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## Chookers

I have a question about batch size and water quantity.. My ideal batch size is 12-13L, so I would like to know if at all possible (based on a 60min boil) how much kilo of grain for a basic ale and how much water?

I have tried to find the answer before, but I always get obscure answers. I would like to hear from people who have done batches this size if possible.

Thanks in advance for any advice.


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## sp0rk

This is a fairly easy thing to dial in using most recipe programs available
Using Brewmate it tells me for a 1.048OG wort, you'll need around 2.5kg of ale malt for a 12L batch at 75% efficiency
It also says your strike water volume should be around 16L
which makes sense, I use 33L for a 23L knockout, so I'd give these figures a try and adjust as needed after experimenting


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## NealK

Try reading this thread
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/38674-move-to-all-grain-for-thirty-bucks/


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## Nick667

> This is a fairly easy thing to dial in using most recipe programs available
> Using Brewmate it tells me for a 1.048OG wort, you'll need around 2.5kg of ale malt for a 12L batch at 75% efficiency
> It also says your strike water volume should be around 16L
> which makes sense, I use 33L for a 23L knockout, so I'd give these figures a try and adjust as needed after experimenting


I use Brewmate as well. Its basic but easy to use. Download for free, type the quantities of grain and hops in on the new recipe page then hit 'brew day'. Adjust temp of grain and strike water quantity, hit 'no chill 'button twice and it will give you all the numbers. E.g. water temps and quantities.
Good luck.


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## Chookers

Thanks Spork, I needed to confirm these amounts. I think I've been boiling my worts too long.

Thanks Neal, that is an excellent guide for my small batches.

and

Thank you Nick, I will try brewmate again. I seem to have problems whenever I have tried to use it in the past.. but maybe that was because I didn't hit the 'no chill' button twice. I will give it another go.

Cheers guys.


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## Nick667

> Thanks Spork, I needed to confirm these amounts. I think I've been boiling my worts too long.
> 
> Thanks Neal, that is an excellent guide for my small batches.
> 
> and
> 
> Thank you Nick, I will try brewmate again. I seem to have problems whenever I have tried to use it in the past.. but maybe that was because I didn't hit the 'no chill' button twice. I will give it another go.
> 
> Cheers guys.
> 
> 
> Sorry Choookers I should have said hit the no chill button before going to brew day it adjusts everything otherwise as stated. I adjust strike water litres (quantity) because I BIAB and fire the grain into around 24 litres to mash. It gives me very accurate strike water temps.
> Good luck.


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## PistolPatch

Wow!

I link this thread on other forums when someone asks of the history of BIAB. Just went to link it again and see it has been unpinned.

I'm happy to update the original post (always have been and wish I could), so any reason it was unpinned?


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## Bribie G

Yup I just noticed that myself. It used to be right at the top of the pinned list. PM the mods / admin, I'm sure they'll get onto it, lovely lads that they are.

edit: as I did with the BIAB in Urn guide, how about submitting a re-write as a new thread, and request the new one to be pinned and the old one closed/archived but still available for viewing. The old thread could have a statement as its last post inviting viewers to go to the new thread if interested.

It would also freshen up the comments section, a bit like "What's in the Glass" has gone through several incarnations.


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## S.E

PistolPatch said:


> Wow!
> 
> I link this thread on other forums when someone asks of the history of BIAB. Just went to link it again and see it has been unpinned.
> 
> I'm happy to update the original post (always have been and wish I could), so any reason it was unpinned?


Don’t know why it was unpinned, my best guess was the thread has morphed into a general discussion rather than a guide.

When the thread was started very little was known here on AHB about the old fashion mash in a bag method. Most members were only aware of the more advanced three tier home brewing method so a guide was handy. These days there are a multitude of experienced brewers on the forum mashing in a bag that discuss and give advice on it almost daily.

You should still be able link to other forums even if it’s unpinned. Also you should be able copy and paste your OP then make any updates you want then re post. If you change your OP now it could make following posts in the thread confusing.

Cheers
Sean


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## Bribie G

Looking at the original posts, I agree that they are great historical information but it's written from the point of view of BIAB being for most people an unfamiliar technique and arguing its advantages.

Nowadays, of course, BIAB has gone on in leaps and bounds and seems to have almost become the main channel for new / kit brewers to get into All Grain (insert emoticon of happy people dancing) and I wonder if a more "how to manual" edition would be more appropriate, with links to the other material such as the downloads available in your first posts here.

For example a more hands on description of the pros and cons of using a gas kettle, an urn, etc - a series of photos and maybe a comprehensive intro that sums up the whole brewing process from grain to brain and how BIAB fits in perfectly with these steps. A lot of beginning BIAB brewers would I'm sure love to know exactly what's happening when they do a 72 degree rest or the difference between malted and unmalted grains, or bag hoisting methods etc.

edit: I realise there's a lot of this info in the original posts but maybe something to tie it all together right from the beginning. When I was in a public speaking club the saying was "Tell them what you are going to tell them. Then tell them. Then tell them what it was that you just told them. "

Now my brain hurts


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## dbisiker

Hi All,

I am currently an extract/k&k brewer of 2 years with ok results but as i'm a perfectionist, need to improve 

Just looking into the BIAB method and getting that setup, I already have a temp controlled fridge that fits 2 x 30lt fermenters and a series 4 kegerator so its the production i need to improve. 

I have one question at the moment (still reading through all the information on here so apologies if it is answered somewhere else - awesome effort but those who have posted it all), I have a temp controller which i used for my previous fermenting fridge which I had anticipated on using for the mash with an immersion hot water element plugged into it and the sensor in the mash, it obviously then switches it on and off based on the temp, am i over thinking it? Would it work? I find the more automated I can make things, the less mistakes I make and better the beer! My other thought was to use it on an urn instead of the normal controller.

Any suggestions woudl be appreciated - now back to reading

Cheers


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## mtb

dbisiker said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I am currently an extract/k&k brewer of 2 years with ok results but as i'm a perfectionist, need to improve
> 
> Just looking into the BIAB method and getting that setup, I already have a temp controlled fridge that fits 2 x 30lt fermenters and a series 4 kegerator so its the production i need to improve.
> 
> I have one question at the moment (still reading through all the information on here so apologies if it is answered somewhere else - awesome effort but those who have posted it all), I have a temp controller which i used for my previous fermenting fridge which I had anticipated on using for the mash with an immersion hot water element plugged into it and the sensor in the mash, it obviously then switches it on and off based on the temp, am i over thinking it? Would it work? I find the more automated I can make things, the less mistakes I make and better the beer! My other thought was to use it on an urn instead of the normal controller.
> 
> Any suggestions woudl be appreciated - now back to reading
> 
> Cheers


Good on you for advancing from kits mate, all grain is a blast.

I used to do exactly what you're suggesting, with a wire cage sitting over the element to prevent contact with the grain bag (this would burn the bag) and a wort pump to recirculate the heating wort and ensure the temp is consistent throughout the mash.

*however*

If you're doing typical 60-90min mashes, you should be able to insulate your pot well enough to maintain temp anyway. I stopped recirculating & heating throughout the mash when I realised an el cheapo sleeping bag from Kmart insulated my pot just fine.


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## dbisiker

Thanks Beer God - seems a bit complicated to use the temp controller if the sleeping bag will produce the same results

Cheers!


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## Bribie G

I used a sleeping bag for years but now find that a Big W $10 light as fluff el cheapo doonah plus a couple of occy straps does a better insulating job.
If you aren't recirculating then heating during mashing just makes a hot spot while the rest cools anyway..


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