# Biab V 3 Vessel



## puffer555 (10/7/10)

Hi guys,

Firstly, let me say that my aim here is not to start a sh*t slinging match, but more to compare the facts.
I am a BIAB brewer and am generally very happy with my beers (I am sure most would agree that there is always some room for improvement).
I also like the simpler process and am quite happy to continue with it into the foreseeable future. 
It should be said that I am still quite inexperienced with only about 10 AG brews under my belt.

It must be said however that my curiosity about traditional 3 vessel brewing is getting the better of me.
I am continuously trying to justify to myself why I should stick with BIAB and that there is really no need to upgrade. 
I think it's mostly the engineer in me wanting to optimise things and also have nicer toys.
The brew p**n on this site and others is not helping the situation.

Anyway, early in the BIAB evolution there was speculation about limitations of the process.
Now that it has been truly tried and tested by many thousands of brews, what are peoples understanding of the true limitations of the process? 
I am sure there are BIABers on this forum who have now upgraded to 3 Vessel brewing.
What were your reasons for upgrading? Was it:

1. Beer quality (ie. consistency, cloudiness, etc) 
2. Procedure limitations (ie. batch size, efficiency, sparging, step mashing etc) 
3. Style Limitations (ie. high OG beers, lagers, etc) 
4. Control (ie. automation, mash temp control, etc)
5. Brew Porn (need I say any more)

PS, I know that some of the examples are not limitations of BIAB.

What I am trying to establish is what are the real reasons to upgrade to a traditional 3 V system?
I am really hoping for BIABers to chime in with their experiences, as they would be the best people to judge the limitations.

Cheers 
TIM


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## Nick JD (10/7/10)

Me _________________ <--(barge pole) ........................ this subject.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (10/7/10)

puffer555 said:


> What I am trying to establish is what are the real reasons to upgrade to a traditional 3 V system?



Because you want to. In my opinion, that is the only really valid reason.

For all the benefits of multi-vessel systems (traditional or otherwise), there is/are at least one corresponding benefit(s) in BIAB. People who are fond of one will highlight what they see as the benefits of their chosen system as will all the others.

I reckon most of that is blather, unless you have a specific need that is not addressed by the thing you're using now. There have been many, many such discussions in this place that reinforce this opinion.

Once you have learned how to brew with any given system and learned how it works for you, you can then make an informed judgement about where to go next, if anywhere.

Let the flamefest begin...


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## Thirsty Boy (10/7/10)

As someone who normally brews on 3V system, but who has done a fair few BIAB brews as well - I'm not quite the person you are looking for a response from, but I'll have a crack at kicking off till you get some responses from people who have made the change.

I think the reasons to change are pretty limited - I have tried, both as a thought exercise and as a practical brewing exercise.. to think of a general style, or brewing variation (like decoction, step mash, cereal mash etc) that you can't do via BIAB - havent' found one yet. And so far... I don't notice that beers I brew via BIAB are of any less quality than the beers I brew on my RIMS.

So for me, the differences certainly don't include quality, procedure, style or control - with the exception of efficiency.

Reasons I can see might make someone change:

*Batch size -* you want to go bigger than a standard double batch... well I know people have done it BIAB style. But I think that probably bigger batches are more appropriate on a more traditional system.

*Efficiency -* If chasing efficiency beyond an avergae of the mid-high 70% range is important to you, then a continuous sparge system is the way to go. All teh systems I have seen for consistently pushing BIAB efficiency up that high... end up being just as much trouble/equipment/effort as just using a well tried 3V fly sparge.

*Fancy -* You want it fancier, shinier, with more flashing light. Oh you could dream up ways to add bells and whistles to your BIAB system if you are wedded to the process that firmly. But the hard and fast fact is that 1 shiny stainless pot will never be as flash as 3 shiny stainless pots and a bunch of tubes, pipes and pumps.

and thats about it really......

Except of course for the main reason. That you want to! You've seen the way other people brew and you like it - you find yourself having to justify why "not" to change. BIAB is great... but its not so great that you shouldn't change if you have a hankering to do so. BIAB is _just as good_, and it has a number of advantages especially for newer brewers... but it also _isn't better_ than other ways to brew. If you yearn for a 3V system... just change. This is a hobby not a profession... you don' _have_ to justify it, you can just do it because you want to. And if you don't like it.. change back.

I'm not changing from my 3V system - I love brewing on it and I've spent a lot of time, thought, money and effort on it. But if my house burned down tomorrow and I had to start everything from scratch..... There's a fairly good chance that I would build a BIAB system and stick with it.

Thats how I feel about it anyway.

TB


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## mxd (10/7/10)

I am moving from BIAB to HERMS and my reasons are basically as TB described the main reason being I want to do 40 to 60 ltr post boil size so I don't have to brew as much. The other option was not to drink as much, so I contemplated and choose 3V, I still plan to do BIAB for singles/play type batches.


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## puffer555 (10/7/10)

Thanks TB,
Those are the sorts of reasons I was looking for.
In fact, they are pretty much the only reasons I could come up with too.
I also thought brewing really High OG beers might be a limitation.
I just wanted some confirmation from the more experienced brewers.
Cheers
Tim


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## QldKev (10/7/10)

TB has given some good points, but to add to that. I'm currently still a BIAG brewer, but will move to 3V with HERMS. I would not move to 3V without HERMS unless you are only doing it for bragging rights. Although I think I make good beer, with HERMS I'm hoping to make good beer 100% of the time consistently. 

Basically no bullshit about summer Vs winter losses in temps over the mash, none of the shit I hit my mash strike temp 1c too high, the HERMS will bring it back to where it should be and hold it there. 

QldKev


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## bum (10/7/10)

I can't speak from experience, puffer555, but when I recently set up my own 3V system I was faced with a similar decision. After reading a lot about both processes the decision was made for reasons other than on the quality of the beer. I'm a real fiddler and this method lets me pretend I have more control over things (which I know I don't - I just get to bugger about a little bit more). And even when I did decide to go 3V I made sure my HLT would be appropriate for the BIAB system I'd like to set up if the fancy takes me. So, yeah, I gotta agree that the real reason to change system (in either direction) is basically because you want to.


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## QldKev (10/7/10)

bum said:


> I can't speak from experience, puffer555, but when I recently set up my own 3V system I was faced with a similar decision. After reading a lot about both processes the decision was made for reasons other than on the quality of the beer. I'm a real fiddler and this method lets me pretend I have more control over things (which I know I don't - I just get to bugger about a little bit more). And even when I did decide to go 3V I made sure my HLT would be appropriate for the BIAB system I'd like to set up if the fancy takes me. So, yeah, I gotta agree that the real reason to change system (in either direction) is basically because you want to.



Agree with you here, if you can't make decent beer BIAG, 3V is not suddenly going to make you make good beer. 

QldKev


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## manticle (10/7/10)

My experience is limited to me making 3V and tasting other brewers' BIAB.

Fine beers either way (and some crap ones too). I think the method is only as relevant as you want to make it, provided the basic principles of brewing are followed.


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## Screwtop (10/7/10)

puffer555 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Firstly, let me say that my aim here is not to start a sh*t slinging match, but more to compare the facts.
> I am a BIAB brewer and am generally very happy with my beers (I am sure most would agree that there is always some room for improvement).
> ...




Having never used BIAB, I only have this to offer. Ask a fellow brewer who has a 3V system if you can brew a batch using his kit. Naturally you should compensate him well with beers and you should both have an enjoyable brewday. Take the wort home to ferment, then when ready taste and compare to your beers. If after using a 3V system and tasting the resulting beer you are sold on change then go for it, if you can see no reason to then stay with BIAB. 

There are many aspects to brewing, many brewers get as much of a kick out of using shiny professional looking kit as they do from drinking the fruits of their labour. Using my HERMS system is boring, like being in the army......."Hurry Up And Wait", most of the time I'm farting around in the brewery or browsing AHB. But I love brewing using my system due to the almost robotic stress free process required. And fine tuning recipes is easy due to the repeatability/consistency of the system, small changes in recipe or process are evident in the end product. 

Cheers,

Screwy


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