# Safale S-04 Ale Yeast Off Flavours.



## Mitcho89 (30/7/10)

Hi everyone,

I've only just stopped using s-04 due to it's awful flavors kicked off and I just can't work out why. I've usually kept it at about 22-26C'.

Until now I thought that was within the safe range of the yeast but upon reading AHB, the best range is 16-17, close to what I have my US-05 at in my Black Rock Lager brew. 

I really miss using this yeast. It's high flocculation and settling properties are just fantastic but I'm just scared to use it again. 3 batches now thrown out due to this awful flavor. Makes it worse that I used it always in my Coppers Mexican Cerveza so being a weak beer in flavor anyway, this off taste just absolutely dominated.....regardless of how much lemon or lime I used!

Anyone who has had a similar problems, I'd love to hear from you!

Kind regards,

Mitch.


----------



## Pennywise (30/7/10)

Mitcho, I'd say the off flavours you're getting would be from the temp it was fermented at. Personally I don't really like S-04 regardless, and for that type of beer, a Cerveza, is totally out of place. US-05 would be a much better choice, or even a Lager yeast. If you want to give S-04 another go, try it in a coopers English Bitter, Coopers Real Ale or even an IPA, and I'd say deffinatly ferment below 20. Maybe someone could chime in and give some advice as to what temp this yeast is best at?


----------



## Mitcho89 (30/7/10)

Yeah I'd say it's definitely the temperature. The owner of the local brew shop was the one who gave it to me and said it was "in that style of beer" so I'm not sure. 

Why aren't you much of a fan of the yeast?

Thanks mate,

Mitch.


----------



## mckenry (30/7/10)

Mitcho89 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I've only just stopped using s-04 due to it's awful flavors kicked off and I just can't work out why. I've usually kept it at about 22-26C'.
> 
> ...



Hi Mitch,
Firstly, I use US05 & S04 at 19*C. I dont think using it with a coopers blonde kit is going to make it bad enough to tip. Sure, it may not be the exact yeast for that type of beer, but its not going to spoil it either.
If this is 3 batches in a row, with nothing else brewed in between (that was good) I'd be thinking infection in your equipment and possibly your process. Let us know and we can help more.

Edit - 26*C is the high end, but again, should not ruin it. So, more likely infection than temp I'd say.


----------



## JestersDarts (30/7/10)

Mitcho89 said:


> Yeah I'd say it's definitely the temperature. The owner of the local brew shop was the one who gave it to me and said it was "in that style of beer" so I'm not sure.
> 
> Why aren't you much of a fan of the yeast?
> 
> ...



I'm not surprised your not sure!

your LHBS owner is either:


a. Keeping it simple for you so not to bog you down with too much information
b. Apathetic
c. An idiot

poll?


----------



## fraser_john (30/7/10)

JestersDarts said:


> your LHBS owner is either:
> 
> a. Keeping it simple for you so not to bog you down with too much information
> b. Apathetic
> c. An idiot



+1

Corona is a lager and hence should use a lager yeast, not an ale yeast. Plus the grain bill (or kit) for a mex-lager has no crystal or anything to offset the flavours of an ale yeast.

I'd go for option c) above.

Gotta love a good LHBS.....oh hang on, I don't have one near me.


----------



## Pennywise (30/7/10)

Mitcho89 said:


> Why aren't you much of a fan of the yeast?




I prolly shouldn't bad mouth it too much as I've not used it for quite some time, like over 3 years at least. But I never had much luck with it flavour wise, I should give it another go sometime soon, now that my process and attention to detail have improved, so I can make a more learned opinion


----------



## Mitcho89 (30/7/10)

With my next batch of Mex Cerveza I reckon I'll just go for the US-05 I'll collect from my most recent batch and blew it at about 16 or so C to get that nice nuetral "fake lager" taste going on. Should come out a treat. Still working out the best options for clearing the beer. I think just time is the best medicine *thumbs up*

Craig at my local brew shop is a real nice bloke but yeah... if he's not sure then what hope do I have


----------



## keifer33 (30/7/10)

My 2nd brew using better products had this yeast and after a few weeks in the bottle has very off flavors but I am more putting it down to bad method (was also given bad info by lhbs I was using at the time) and products not mixing well. What is the off flavour u are experiencing?


----------



## Mitcho89 (30/7/10)

It's hard to say. Sort of like funky off tasting banana's. More or less something you'd never want to taste in a beer!...or much else for that matter.

What did you experience?


----------



## keifer33 (30/7/10)

Yeh hard to describe. The only thing I can link it too is almost vegimite which even for an ale is unbearable and I can't even get threw a glass of it.


----------



## mckenry (30/7/10)

Mitcho89 said:


> With my next batch of Mex Cerveza I reckon I'll just go for the US-05 I'll collect from my most recent batch and blew it at about 16 or so C to get that nice nuetral "fake lager" taste going on. Should come out a treat. Still working out the best options for clearing the beer. I think just time is the best medicine *thumbs up*
> 
> Craig at my local brew shop is a real nice bloke but yeah... if he's not sure then what hope do I have



Where are you Mitcho? Liverpool way?


----------



## Mitcho89 (30/7/10)

Keifer, I have had similar problems. It's just shit. I feel like I'm throwing money away. I've binned enough batches over the last couple of months using s-04 to buy me 2 slabs of commerical, no hassle, no dick around beer  oh well.....We live, we learn, we forget and move on!

McKenry, No mate I'm about 30 min outside of Brisbane.

Cheers lads,

Mitch.


----------



## ballzac (30/7/10)

Mitcho89 said:


> It's hard to say. Sort of like funky off tasting banana's. More or less something you'd never want to taste in a beer!...or much else for that matter.


Definitely sounds temperature related. I've only used S-04 twice, but never had off flavours from it. I actually had a brown ale fermented at about 24C with Notty that produced a lot of banana flavour (though it was not funky). 18 months took care of it, and it turned out wonderful. I believe this is why hefeweizen's are meant to be enjoyed fresh. If you get this again, don't tip it. Just wait and see.

S-04 was a very user friendly and good tasting yeast, and I will definitely use it again. I fermented both my brews with S-04 at 18C.


----------



## Beer Magician (30/7/10)

I've used S-04 heaps of times and never had a problem with it. Some of my best IPA's have been brewed with S-04. I usually ferment in the 18-20 degrees range.


----------



## Mitcho89 (30/7/10)

Hmmm makes me wonder if it was something cleaning wise. I'll use a packet of 'no rinse' I just got twice over with the next time i make a beer that uses s-04


----------



## hsb (30/7/10)

+1 to only having problems with S04 when it ferments too warm. When it has been up to 22-24C it's left a rank banana ish taste in my Ales. Since making sure I keep it down nearer 17C I've only had good results. Only used it in English style ales mind. 
I get noticeably better results with Liquid yeast, the contrast is big but S04 is useful when starters go awry.


----------



## Mitcho89 (30/7/10)

Yep sounds like the taste i've been getting. Looks like lower temps along with the proper beer style should see this being a good clear yeast. Might make it in my next Pale Ale but then again.... I want to reculture Coopers Pale Ale yeast for that one! I think this yeast has scared me a little too much to want to use it again when I'm getting great results with US-05.

Thanks mate.


----------



## katzke (30/7/10)

I use both US-05 and S-04. The S-04 is an English Ale yeast so will have more flavor then the clean US-05 American Ale yeast. That said I have used both in Wit beers and I liked the clean American Ale yeast and my wife liked the bit of character that S-04 gave the beer. I am not going for a Belgian Wit or even a German Wit. I do not like Belgian yeast flavors as they taste like bubble gum to me. I do not like banana beer and have not found the clove balance I like either.

I can say S-04 for a light no taste beer like the Mex Cerveza is totally out of character. Not that it would, not be good, but I think you would be better off with US-05.

Temperature is also against you and I would not ferment any beer at that high of a temp unless you wanted to push the yeast for a particular flavor. 

The suggestion of infection is also a good one. Good to change up your sanitation technique once in a while. Stay away from miracle all in one cleaners. There is a difference between a cleaner and a sanitizer. It needs to be clean first then you need to sanitize before use. Something that has been sanitized will get infected if it gets dirty or dusty or even just from setting as the air is full of bugs. We do not always brew in the cleanest places. A kitchen has to be one of the more infected rooms in our home just because we bring in all kinds of stuff on food. If you buy bread from a good baker it will have yeast on the package as the bread is packaged not far from where the dough is made. Fresh fruit and vegetables have all kinds of friendly bugs on them if they are healthy and natural. Then there is cheese and good cheese like blue has mold in it. I am sure I missed something.

So if you are getting beer that is bad enough to tip then you are either very picky or you have a problem with your brewing procedure. In all the beers I have tasted at or brew club I can say I only poured out 2.. I have only brewed one beer I did not like and never drank. I am not sure to this day what the problem was but I think it was the combination of a hop that I am not fond of and grain I do not like.


----------



## QSR (30/7/10)

North, South, East or West of Brisbane Mitch?


----------



## Jimboley (30/7/10)

I make the coopers Cerveza kit all the time for my mate who like water beer

The Coopers Cerveza packet yeast is a combo yeast IMHO, 
Just open one up and you'll see a mix of ale & lager yeasts
The best results for this yeast are to ferment at 18-20C for 1st 5 days then raised to 24C for further 4 days
Lager for 3 weeks in keg or 5 weeks min in bottle. 
That sulphur banana aroma/flavour will dissipate in this time.

This and there Euro Lager are the ONLY commercial kit yeast that I use. 

:icon_cheers:​


----------



## QSR (30/7/10)

Are you talking flavour or aroma?
Hope this may be of help. This is about banana aroma.
Taken straight out of "The Homebrewers Answer Book" ( with minor changes as to not infringe on copywrite )

The banana aroma is associated with the ester isoamyl acetate. In general, ester production increases when wort aeration is low. Another factor is temperature. Generally, higher temperatures lead to more esters in the finished beer. Yeast strain also has a great influence on aroma; some strains are known to produce more isoamyl acetate than others, for example, weizen strains.
Finally, there is wort original gravity . Ester levels increase with wort gravity. Aerate the wort well and try to keep your fermentation temperature less than 24 degrees C for ales.
Aging Temperature has no effect on ester production.

I would suggest you buy this book - very informative as far as I am concerned.
I would also guess that your LHBS ( Craig ) supplied that yeast to you knowing true well that you did not have the means to control your temperature for the correct use of a "lager" yeast........and is therfore not such an idoit as others have said. He supplied you what was suited for the temperature climate you are fermenting in.


----------



## bum (30/7/10)

QSR said:


> I would also guess that your LHBS ( Craig ) supplied that yeast to you knowing true well that you did not have the means to control your temperature for the correct use of a "lager" yeast........and is therfore not such an idoit as others have said. He supplied you what was suited for the temperature climate you are fermenting in.


 Bull. Shit. S04 is the obvious choice non-lager yeast for this style? Ridiculous. Even the yeast in the tin would be better. LHBS owner is an idiot.


----------



## benno1973 (30/7/10)

QSR said:


> I would also guess that your LHBS ( Craig ) supplied that yeast to you knowing true well that you did not have the means to control your temperature for the correct use of a "lager" yeast........and is therfore not such an idoit as others have said. He supplied you what was suited for the temperature climate you are fermenting in.



If he wasn't an idiot, he would have supplied US05 or Nottingham yeasts - equally neutral lager like yeasts, rather than the fruity S04. Craig isn't necessarily an idiot, but maybe doesn't know the characteristics of:
a. lager yeasts; and/or
b. S04


----------



## QSR (30/7/10)

Each to their own.

There is nothing saying that you can not make a lager style into an ale style..........have you tasted this beer using S04 ( I doubt it ). I have and it did not taste too bad at all


----------



## bum (30/7/10)

Did Craig tell you to do it?


----------



## benno1973 (30/7/10)

QSR said:


> There is nothing saying that you can not make a lager style into an ale style..........have you tasted this beer using S04 ( I doubt it ). I have and it did not taste too bad at all



Absolutely. Didn't mean to offend, was just saying that if you're looking to make a Mexican Cervesa (like Corona) you'd want a neutral yeast. S04 will give you a completely different beer. Not to say that's wrong, but most people buying the cervesa kit would be looking to make a Corona clone, or something similar.


----------



## ballzac (30/7/10)

Considering that S-23 may be the first choice of lager yeast for people who are currently using other Fermentis yeasts (such as S-04), it may be worth mentioning the S-23 can throw some pretty fruity flavours - such as pineapple - too. It can work really well, but would not be any more appropriate for a corona clone than S-04. Just throwing that out there


----------



## QSR (30/7/10)

Naa, Kaiser Soze.....( and bum for that matter ) it takes more than that to offend me.....cheers :beer: 

It is that I am pretty sure that Mitch089 was given that yeast because he was not able to control the fermenting temperature required to do fermentation with a lager yeast. Hence why he was given an ale yeast. No, bum, Craig did not tell me to say anything. If Mitch wanted to keep to style, he would find a means to control his fermenting temperature for the appropriate use of a lager yeast for that style. Until that stage his choices are limited a little, so therefore he is making it to as close to style as HE POSSIBLY can given his temperature/climate and conditions he is confined to. As I said, I have tried Craigs beer with S04 and it was not too bad - I am not saying it is the best yeast to use but it STILL made a nice drinkable beer.
If Craig had of given him a lager yeast when he knew he could not control lager temperatures - then I would call him an idoit.
And saying any of this is bull shit or you can not do it, is simply a case of severe TUNNEL VISION.
By the way Mitch089.......what yeast do you use in your pizza bases............and say hello to your boss ( Peter ) for me :kooi:


----------



## benno1973 (30/7/10)

QSR said:


> If Craig had of given him a lager yeast when he knew he could not control lager temperatures - then I would call him an idoit.



Yep, that's a worse crime. I hear my LHBS all the time giving noobs advice to use S-23 for a cleaner ferment in their kits, when it's plain that they have no temp control. The only thing I'd say about this is that US05 or Nott would be a far better recommendation than S04 for a Cervesa kit, but I'm not saying that S04 would produce an undrinkable beer.


----------



## QSR (30/7/10)

I do agree on the US05.


----------



## bum (30/7/10)

QSR said:


> It is that I am pretty sure that Mitch089 was given that yeast because he was not able to control the fermenting temperature required to do fermentation with a lager yeast. Hence why he was given an ale yeast.


 Not questioning that. What I'm questioning is your assertion that S04 is the best yeast for that application. There is no reason that a LHBS that carries S04 wouldn't have a better alternative on hand. And the fact that he (LHBS owner) chooses to use this yeast in his own beers just seems to underscore the fact that he might not know what he is doing. 



QSR said:


> No, bum, Craig did not tell me to say anything.


 
Just wanted to point out that it was absolutely not my intention to suggest such a thing. I was asking if it was Craig who told you to use S04 with that kit yourself (as at that point it seemed to me like you were talking about your own beer, not Craig's). I do think that recommending that yeast is bad advice but it is definitely not my intention to slander the guy (and yourself) with such an accusation. 

And while we're on the topic of bad advice related to this yeast - why has the OP been allowed to walk out of the shop thinking it is ok to run this yeast at 26C?


----------



## QSR (30/7/10)

No bum ( no bull either )

I have not made this beer myself - I have tasted Craigs beer of this and I don't recall it tasting or smelling of bananas.
I dont recall ever using s04 in any of my brews, and I never anywhere said it was the best yeast to use.

I would bet my left nut that the OP was never told to ferment at that temp in the first place.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the recommended fermentation temperature on the packet??

Safale (S04) A well-known, commercial English ale yeast, selected for its fast fermentation character and its ability to form a very compact sediment at the end of the fermentation, helping to improve beer clarity. This yeast is recommended for the production of a large range of ale beers. Recommended fermentation temperature: 15C - 24C.


----------



## bum (30/7/10)

QSR said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the recommended fermentation temperature on the packet??
> 
> Safale (S04) A well-known, commercial English ale yeast, selected for its fast fermentation character and its ability to form a very compact sediment at the end of the fermentation, helping to improve beer clarity. This yeast is recommended for the production of a large range of ale beers. Recommended fermentation temperature: 15C - 24C.


 
Thank you for taking the time to correct yourself. Very considerate of you! 22C/26C is not the same as 15C/24C.


----------



## QSR (30/7/10)

I do not have to correct myself at all...........you need to read the original posters post again......and read it very, very slowly this time and you will see that it was actually Mitch089 that had said 22C/26C


----------



## bum (30/7/10)

I don't even know where to begin to give up.

You're talking to Jimboley?! Jimboley is his own LHBS owner. **** me drunk!

Mitch089 is the OP. The OP we're trying to help. Bloody Nora.


----------



## manticle (30/7/10)

Bananas and 26 degrees sounds about right, regardless of yeast.


----------



## QSR (30/7/10)

Maybe you should give up.
You make me laugh you goose!
Jimboley is in Western Australia
Jimboley is NOT his own LHBS owner. **** me drunk!

Let me know if this is too fast for you!

Mitch089 ( the original poster ) is in Queensland - about 30km outside Brisbane which what he said in one of his posts and 30kms places him exactly where there is another LHBS owner called Craig who knows Mitch and is aware of Mitch's concern of that yeast. Google is your friend - Google a map of Australia and you will hopefully work out that Yangebup in Western Australia is a little more than 30 kms outside Brisbane Queensland. Mitch was just talking to Craig about it yesterday.

Someone stop give bum any more beers tonight............he doesn't need it.........Bloody Nora  :drinks:


----------



## QSR (30/7/10)

I will let you in on another little secret bum.
Are you ready................I have been referring to Mitch089 original post all along ( after all it is his topic ). I was never talking or replying to Jimboley.


----------



## dr K (30/7/10)

Jimboley said:


> The Coopers Cerveza packet yeast is a combo yeast IMHO,
> Just open one up and you'll see a mix of ale & lager yeasts



I would be really interested to know how to tell visually the difference between ale and lager yeast.

Anyway, S04 is a great yeast, it produces clean English style ales, a hint of ester but generally subdued especially at lower fermentation temps. If you are getting banana overtones you have an infection, end of story.
Problem is of course that dry (true) lager yeasts are expensive and you really need to double the pitch rate of an ale yeast, you wil not make a (proper
) lager at fermentation temps above 15C, so you are better to use a clean ale yeast such as US05 or Nottingham.

K


----------



## bum (30/7/10)

QSR said:


> and read it very, very slowly this time and you will see that it was actually Mitch089 that had said 22C/26C


 
Then what does ^this^ mean when I was already quoting mitch? (See, I told you I don't know when to give up). 

Jimboley most certainly is his own LHBS.
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...showtopic=45847


----------



## QSR (30/7/10)

Mate.......did you google Australia or Mars.......what are you on about. More-so.......what are you on? Share it around.
I know Jimboley has his own HBS in Western Australia - you are not telling me something I did not know FFS.
The person that started this original post titled ...........

"Safale S-04 Ale Yeast Off Flavours., Anyone else experienced this?" is mitch089's topic, and mitch089's topic has Sweet **** All to do with this.....http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...showtopic=45847 .

I now know why you should be "Not be entitled to an opinion" :lol:


----------



## Mitcho89 (30/7/10)

Holy hell! This has turned into a bit of a war! 

Craig really hasn't done a thing wrong, I told him about the temp I can roughly get and keep and he gave me that one. I have had about 3 batches of beer that use s-04 and they've turned out beautifully, I just can't remember the temp I had them at. I think it was about 20-22C. When I told Craig of these temps, he said that it was a good temp for this Ale yeast, not absolutely dead on but GOOD!

As far as these problems I've been having recently over the last 3 batches, I'd say it's been due to the higher temps (24+) and Winter dropping the temp right off and then me having to try and heat it back up a fraction. No ones fault but mine and definitely not Craig's.

When I told him about the problems I've been having, he was as pissed off about it as I was. Besides the problems I've been having, he's been a bloody good help to me and he's a good bloke in general.


QSR, you wouldn't happen to be the owner of Black Bar or happen to be close friends with a Pom' named Steve would you? 

I can't remember the exact name of brand, but it's in a cylindrical red cardboard case and it says Bakers Yeast. I'll have a proper look tomorrow for ya.

Cheers lads!


----------



## QSR (30/7/10)

No Mitch........no war happening here......I was just playing around and winding up my ol'mate "bum" while you were out making Pizzas.

Glad to see you returned to clarify everything I have been saying while you were out.
Am I the owner of Black Bar or close friends with a Pom named Steve..........  , you will need to ask me that when you see me Mitch.....lol.

Did you tell Peter that I said Hello?


----------



## Mitcho89 (30/7/10)

Haha Chris it's good to put a name to the text! Mate I would have said hello to pete but I only got back home at 9:15.....sure as hell didn't want to be there for any longer  I'll give him a buzz for ya tomorrow.

As far as temperature control goes when you don't have a keezer or anything with a thermostat controller...or even a head pad, I find it a hell of a lot easier to keep things cool in summer then keep things warm in winter. A bottle of ice can last half a day and still keeps things bloody cool. 

Anyone find that too? 

My parents are giving me the house later this year when they move so I'm going to get a nice chest freezer and convert it and myself over to kegging. You'll be a bloody good source of info Chris!


----------



## QSR (30/7/10)

Mitch,

Am I the owner of Black Bar ( NO ) or close friends with a Pom named Steve ( NO ).......... , you will need to ask me that when you see me Mitch.....lol.

Now are you confused?  

I would be happy to help you though. Just double check with me first before you go out and buy a 2 tap tower font for your freezer as I might ( maybe ) decide to sell mine when I eventually build my bar ( then I will be using a 6 tap porcelain glycol font ).
I may also be looking at selling 2 Andale taps to suite a beer fridge door or wall too. ( again maybe ).


----------



## Mitcho89 (30/7/10)

God now I am confused... good job... Haha 

Mate how do I know you?


----------



## QSR (30/7/10)

I only buy my pizzas from there because they are absolutely Belissimo?

Ask Craig? :lol:


----------



## Mitcho89 (30/7/10)

That doesn't help much at all! Great now I'll be wrecking my brain in bed tonight when I crash out  

How do you know Craig?

Good to know that Pete and myself are doing something right haha

Cheers.


----------



## QSR (30/7/10)

Craig and his family are good friends of mine


----------



## Screwtop (30/7/10)

Mitcho89 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I've only just stopped using s-04 due to it's awful flavors kicked off and I just can't work out why. I've usually kept it at about 22-26C'.
> 
> ...



Faaark me! Have never had a problem fermenting a lager using lager yeast at lager fermentation temp (08C - 12C). 




Mitcho89 said:


> Yeah I'd say it's definitely the temperature. The owner of the local brew shop was the one who gave it to me and said it was "in that style of beer"



A Prize Pullthrough!!!!



Mitcho89 said:


> It's hard to say. Sort of like funky off tasting banana's. More or less something you'd never want to taste in a beer!...or much else for that matter.
> 
> What did you experience?



Could it have been green apple. Possibly due to finishing fermentation too early, maybe didn't leave the beer on the yeast to clean up after itself. Possibly rushing fermentation???? 



Mitcho89 said:


> Hmmm makes me wonder if it was something cleaning wise. I'll use a packet of 'no rinse' I just got twice over with the next time i make a beer that uses s-04



Thousands of home brewers use S-04 yeast every day. Tell you something!!!



hsb said:


> +1 to only having problems with S04 when it ferments too warm. When it has been up to 22-24C it's left a rank banana ish taste in my Ales. Since making sure I keep it down nearer 17C I've only had good results.



Lack of understanding of fermentation management.




bum said:


> Bull. Shit. S04 is the obvious choice non-lager yeast for this style? Ridiculous. Even the yeast in the tin would be better. LHBS owner is an idiot.



Good advice



dr K said:


> I would be really interested to know how to tell visually the difference between ale and lager yeast.
> 
> Anyway, S04 is a great yeast, it produces clean English style ales, a hint of ester but generally subdued especially at lower fermentation temps. If you are getting banana overtones you have an infection, end of story.
> Problem is of course that dry (true) lager yeasts are expensive and you really need to double the pitch rate of an ale yeast, you wil not make a (proper
> ...




Good advice


----------



## Mitcho89 (30/7/10)

QSR, I'm glad nothing was misinterpreted as far as Craig goes. I'm a big user of the phrase "small world" and that proves it! I just had to make clear that I was the one who buggered the brews up, not him in any way, shape or form. I have to pop in and get some product off him tomorrow. His latest recommendation of the BlackRock Lager with us-05 is turning out fantastic. I think I might drop another of that batch onto the us-05 trub once I rack the previous.

Cheers for all the great info everyone.

Mitch.


----------

