# Where did my beautiful taste go?



## elmondo (31/5/15)

Hi guys.
I have a problem, that when I taste my beer as I'm transferring it to my kegs, it tastes great. Full aroma, deep flavour and a lovely yeast flavour.
After a month in the kegs at 1 degree that flavour is gone. Disappeared! I'm left with a blander tasting beer. Lagering for up to 3 months hasn't brought that taste back.
I am very careful about oxygenation when I transfer, hence I purge all the star san no rinse solution out of the keg with CO2 and then pruge it and the lines some more.
I brew under pressure in corny kegs and transfer with counter pressure.
I have experimented with different yeasts, including Wyeast Danish lager, Bohemian lager and Bavarian lager. Always taste great at the end of primary fermentation. Then taste gets lost....
I make pilsners, full grain mash, pitch large amounts of yeast at 8 degrees and ramp up temp slowly for a diacetyl rest at 15 degrees over two weeks usually.
My yeast starters are stepped, usually 2liters, then 4 litres and lately a 10 litre batch under Oxygen pressure. I get a huge amount of slurry from that!
Anyone else able to help with the taste dissipation problem?


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## verysupple (31/5/15)

Well, it sounds like you're doing all the right things in terms of brewing, fermenting, and packaging; so I'm going to look at the post-packaging stage. What temp. are you serving at? What carbonation levels are you targeting? 

I find that the carbonation level plays a big role in the amout of malt flavour and aroma I get coming through. My beers always seem more malty before packaging. And of course you're probably aware that the colder you serve your beer the less flavour and aroma you can perceive.

Are the beers tasting _completely_ bland after packaging and carbonating, or just less flavoursome than before packaging? Maybe they're fine and the natural change in perception due to carbonation, serving temp. etc. is the only thing going on?


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## elmondo (31/5/15)

Thanks.
I serve at 7 degrees.
Lagering occurs at 1 degree.
I ferment at 20 PSI final pressure and maintain this through the lagering period, although the temp does mean that CO2 gets absorbed as I chill the kegs for lagering.
Could it be to do with yeast levels? As primary finishes, there are more suspended cells that add to the flavour. Is that lost as the cells settle out?
The flavour improves in some aspects - mainly the mouthfeel and aftertaste. However, the smell and initial front palate taste become bland.


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## verysupple (31/5/15)

Yeast in suspension in a lager is probably detrimental to the flavour rather than aiding it. 

Seven degrees isn't super cold, especially for a lager, so I don't think that's your problem. Of course, everything seems vamped up at higher temps, so if you're comparing it to a tasting at a warmer temp, that could explain a bit.

I don't keg so PSI doesn't mean a lot to me. That said, it's not too hard to back off the pressure and let it equalise (or just purge some of the CO2 off) to find out if lower carbonation is more to your liking.

How do they taste compared to commercial beers or other peoples home brews?


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## elmondo (31/5/15)

What I love about German beers is the initial smell when you crack the top off it. A mixture of aroma hops, malt and a Brewer's yeast smell. That smell is what you taste initially. I'm talking about something like Radeberger, or Bitburger pils or Flensburger.

My beer is good in the aftertaste. However, the initial smell and taste are far from what Im after.
Hard to describe that taste unfortunately. But frustrating to have had it at the end of primary and then to loose it.


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## droid (31/5/15)

just a quick question, what temp are you tasting the good taste at? You say you ramp up to <edit 15> are you tasting at 15 then dropping down to 1 then serving at 7? Or tasting @ 1 and its good then losing it later

I tasted my pils at bottling temp which was around .5 deg, there was no real flavour to speak of, I'm hoping that serving at 4 deg will bring the flavour back out

Do you have to add some fresh yeast when bottling after long cold lagering? I guess that's not an issue with kegging

Good luck sorting it out anyway!


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## elmondo (31/5/15)

I usually chill the beer before kegging. Down to 7 degrees. It tastes good then.


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## rude (1/6/15)

well i ,m the same ales though taste it before kegging & sware its the best beer I have brewesd
1 week in carbed up s*hit what happened to my award winner still allright though
2 weeks in adjust carb levels change mind a bit not bad
3 weeks in bloody beautifull maybe s$#t beers finished


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## Camo6 (1/6/15)

^ There's obviously nothing wrong with the ABV at least.


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## Spiesy (1/6/15)

elmondo said:


> Lagering for up to 3 months hasn't brought that taste back


Lagering won't. Lagering is meant to smooth out flavours and clean a beer up, not really increase existing flavours and aromas. 

Often pre-lagering, the lager/pils won't taste that great. Sulfur, a lot of yeast character etc. With time that fades and you're left with a nice clean finished beer. 

Maybe there's not enough flavour and aroma to start with? What's your recipe and process before fermentation?


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## hoppy2B (1/6/15)

I bottle so am not familiar with kegging but beer losing flavour over time is a common occurrence.

One yeast I have used that I thought highlighted malt flavour well was Nottingham Ale yeast. While not a true lager yeast it does produce beer with lager like characteristics and will tolerate cold temps quite well. It is also easier to use than lager yeast. Maybe try Notto for your next ferment.

If you want hop flavour chuck a couple of bags of hops into your keg.


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## pcmfisher (1/6/15)

Bottle a few and do a side by side test.


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## mb-squared (1/6/15)

do you add gelatin when you move from primary to secondary? I found out one time that when I added too much gelatin to my "bright tank" that, while the beer was crystal clear, much of the good taste had dropped out. Now I make sure to just use 1 teaspoon/keg. But even then a lot of the aromas are gone after ~6 weeks. Just gotta drink faster


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## elmondo (2/6/15)

I don't use gelatin. The beer is usually quite clear by the time I transfer it to the lagering keg.
The recipes I use do usually provide me with beer that tastes full of aroma at the end of primary. 
Could it be sulphur escaping?


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## Rocker1986 (2/6/15)

Have you tried drinking them sooner? Like, pretty much as soon as they are chilled and carbonated rather than leaving them sit for a month? It seems rather odd that you'd lose that much flavour/aroma in only a month though, but then I bottle rather than keg my beers so I guess the conditioning is different.


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## Ninegrain (3/6/15)

Could it be that you in fact prefer the aspects of a beer that are more aligned with an ale than a lager? i.e. the yeast esters and pungency from hops, which you get more pre-lagering, but then lose as the yeast settles out and the lagering process breaks down some of these compounds?? Maybe you are deep down an ale lover but you have convinced yourself that lagers are where it is at, and subsequently refined your processes to pimp them out when I more rustic beer style and process may suit your pallet more??? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## elmondo (5/6/15)

I am trying to make something similar to a german Pils like Radeberger ( Liquorland, Vintage Cellars) or Becks, Bitburger or Flensburger. 
These are definetely Pils/Lagers. Yet they have that rich aroma that I'm after. You can smell it when you crack the top off one. And that first initial taste has it.
Maybe they don't lager long and filter all the yeast straight out bwefore it breaks down those flavours? 
However, Pilsner Urquell apparently lager their beer for 9 months before releasing it. It too has that great aroma.


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## panzerd18 (5/6/15)

In doing a pilsner at the moment. To keep the flavour going I'm going to make a hop tea of saaz hops late in fermentation.


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## Rocker1986 (5/6/15)

elmondo said:


> However, Pilsner Urquell apparently lager their beer for 9 months before releasing it. It too has that great aroma.


They may have used to do that but not anymore. According to a write up about Urquell in which the bloke did a tour of the brewery, "The modern practice adds the blended beer to 56 stainless steel tanks, each holding 3,300 hL, for 35-40 days of lagering (18)."


The whole thing actually reads: "The yeast is pitched at 39 °F (4 °C), and primary fermentation lasts 11 days. The temperature is allowed to rise to a maximum of 48 °F (9 °C) before fermentation is halted and the young beer from each of the fermentors is combined for lagering (18).

*The lagering phase:* In the past, Pilsner Urquell was lagered for three months in 25-hL wooden barrels stored in a network of sandstone tunnels beneath the brewery. The tunnels extended for about 6 miles and occupied an area of 2,250 square miles (about half an acre). The oak and beechwood barrels were lined with pitch, a dark resin extracted from conifer trees (3,15), to protect the beer from any contaminants in the wood. The modern practice adds the blended beer to 56 stainless steel tanks, each holding 3,300 hL, for 35-40 days of lagering (18)."

Urquell is not dry hopped or whirlpool hopped either.


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## elmondo (5/6/15)

Thanks. I remember reading that article in Brewing Technique some time ago. Clearly remembered the numbers incorrectly. Thanks for correction!
Here is the link for those interested:
http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue5.3/urquell.html


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## elmondo (5/6/15)

Ok. I'm starting to think that I can taste residual yeast that has been carried over from the primary to the lager keg.
My procedure so far:
Ferment in keg under pressure . Usually 12 to 14 days. Start at 8 degrees and then raise temp to 14 degrees under 20 PSI until primary complete.
Then cool beer to 7 degrees and transfer to lagering corny keg with counter pressure. Primary keg has shortened "out" conduit. Initial cloudy sediment is discarded from primary.
Beer in lager keg is then lagered for 4 -6 weeks or longer at 1 degree.

I will try and transfer the beer to another keg after about 2 weeks to avoid having it on that fine yeast sediment. That may retain some of those flavours and prevent their breakdown.
Any thoughts?


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## hoppy2B (5/6/15)

I just think that you need to find the right yeast. Just keep trying different lager yeasts if you want to use a lager yeast.

One of the things I noticed when using Nottingham ale yeast was that the beer it produced had a huge caramel aroma when I used only 30 grams of Caraaroma. Hops are subdued a bit by Notto though. Try Notto if you dare, it could be what you are looking for.


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## Rocker1986 (6/6/15)

No dramas mate. I'd done a bit of research into Pilsner Urquell when I started coming up with a recipe for a Bo Pils. I stumbled upon that site in a Google search at some stage and it was a very interesting read.

I'm not trying to clone Urquell but I thought I could take a few ideas from that and use them as a baseline to work from, and sort of adapt parts to suit my own system. I've used a version of their hopping schedule, which I'm playing with at the moment, I'll keep their times but adjust the amounts of each addition to see what it brings. I can't do decoction mashes on my system with any simplicity so I've decided on a Hochkurz schedule instead.

Anyway that's all a bit off topic, but yeah... your experience is quite mysterious and I can't really offer any help or ideas as to why it's happening.  I can't say it's anything I've experienced in my lagers. They always taste better once they are carbonated and served, than they do in the primary. Maybe it's something to do with fermenting and lagering under pressure; being in a (relative to commercial situations) microscopic home brew scale it may have different effects than it does in large scale commercial brewing. I'm not saying it is that, but just a thought.


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## manticle (6/6/15)

What do you mean you can't do decoctions? All you need is a stove, a pot and a spoon.


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## siiren (6/6/15)

I have just done a side by side with a double decocted Oktoberfest, one bottle conditioned and one bottle filled from keg, not cpbf'ed but slow poured.
Taste wise, the bottle conditioned has about double the flavour of the comparison.
I thought it could be either oxidation or a sub prime bottle filling method, not sure how fast this occurs, or the rousing of yeast during force carbonation (yesterday)
However… The second pour from the conditioned bottle had less flavour than the first pour, probably due to the roused yeast, as with the forced carbed.
I'm thinking that yeast suspension could be a lack of flavour issue too.
With lagers anyway.
I will need to do a side by side once the keg has settled too.


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## Rocker1986 (6/6/15)

manticle said:


> What do you mean you can't do decoctions? All you need is a stove, a pot and a spoon.


Which I have, but I really can't be bothered scooping grains out of the bottom of a 40 litre urn into a pot then walking up and down stairs with a pot full of hot or boiling mixture etc. Yes, I could do it, but it's too much faffing about that I can't be arsed with when I'm more than satisfied with the results from a more "normal" mash schedule. B)


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## manticle (6/6/15)

So you can but choose not to?
Fair enough but long way from being limited by your system.
Decoctions are pretty easy by the way - fun to do and makeca distinct difference to final flavour.
Totally unnecessary but worthwhile in my experience.


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## Rocker1986 (6/6/15)

Yeah, it's not really limited in that sense, I could do it if I really wanted to. I actually had to do something similar on a batch recently when I attempted a full step mash but the amount of shit released by the grains at the low temperature first step caused the urn's element to keep cutting out, so I ended up draining wort into a stock pot and taking it upstairs to the stove to boil and return to the urn to bring the temp up. Not something I'm in a hurry to repeat, to be honest. :lol:

The process itself though, yes I don't think is difficult, but yeah makes for a much more enjoyable brew day not to do it at the moment at least.


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## Jack of all biers (14/6/15)

elmondo said:


> Hi guys.
> I have a problem, that when I taste my beer as I'm transferring it to my kegs, it tastes great. Full aroma, deep flavour and a lovely yeast flavour.
> After a month in the kegs at 1 degree that flavour is gone. Disappeared! I'm left with a blander tasting beer. Lagering for up to 3 months hasn't brought that taste back.
> 
> ...


Firstly, if your above fermenting schedule is correct, you won't need a diacetyl rest when pitching your yeast at 8C (as long as your yeast starter is also at the same temp as the fermentor and has had time to adjust to this temp. ie 24hrs). Otherwise your other methods are first rate in my opinion. If its the yeast flavour that is missing after a month at 1C then I'm not surprissed as it has all but settled out. If it is the flavour/aroma you describe below then...



elmondo said:


> What I love about German beers is the initial smell when you crack the top off it. A mixture of aroma hops, malt and a Brewer's yeast smell. That smell is what you taste initially. I'm talking about something like Radeberger, or Bitburger pils or Flensburger.
> 
> My beer is good in the aftertaste. However, the initial smell and taste are far from what Im after.
> Hard to describe that taste unfortunately. But frustrating to have had it at the end of primary and then to loose it.


Maybe, I think I know what aroma you are refering to and it is hard to put into words. I'll go out on a limb and say a combo of malt, DMS and the way the yeast deal with it (ie produce that faint rotten egg smell which is sometimes just dissernable in the above commercial beers when just opened. Do you filter out the yeast? I'm wondering if your lagering is done without yeast in the keg? If so, and you are pressurising it all with bottled CO2 then are you possibly purging, or if you don't filter, diluting the CO2 that the yeast create which would have the DMS aroma effect? 

I know that the commercial beers you refer to above are also filtered, but because they are super efficient germans, who knows if they don't recycle the CO2 that they create to repressurise the kegs/bottled end product (and save the world's problem of global warming one brew at a time  ). Because I don't keg, I could be way off and ignore me if so.


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## Yob (15/6/15)

Jack of all biers said:


> you won't need a diacetyl rest when pitching your yeast at 8C (as long as your yeast starter is also at the same temp as the fermentor and has had time to adjust to this temp. ie 24hrs). .


pardon?


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## Jack of all biers (15/6/15)

Yob said:


> pardon?



I'll quote from Palmer rather than waffle on about my limited experience other than to say his two described methods work for me every time.

_"The best way to ensure a strong, healthy lager fermentation is to pitch a much larger yeast starter than you would for an ale."... _Elmondo does seem to be doing this stage of both methods which I think all will agree is best for Lagers.

_"__In addition, the pitching temperature should be the same as the fermentation temperature to prevent thermally shocking the yeast. In other words, you will need to chill the wort down to 45 - 55 °F _(7-13C)_ before pitching the yeast. The yeast starter should also have been brought down to this temperature range while it was fermenting."... _Elmondo seems to be doing this method. And correctly too by what he has written.

_"__Some brewers pitch their yeast when the wort is warmer and slowly lower the temperature of the whole fermenter gradually over the course of several days until they have reached the optimum temperature for their yeast strain. This method works, and works well, but tends to produce more diacetyl (a buttery-flavored ketone) than the previous method."... _Elmondo isn't doing this method, although I do this one more often than not.

_"__In other words, you will need to chill the wort down to 45 - 55 °F_ (7-13C) _before pitching the yeast. The yeast starter should also have been brought down to this temperature range while it was fermenting. A good way to do this is to pitch the yeast packet into a pint of wort at 60 °F_ (16C), _let that ferment for a day, cool it 5 degrees to_ 55°F (13C) _and add another pint of aerated, cool wort. Let this also ferment for a day, and cool and pitch a third and even fourth time until you have built up 2 quarts or more of yeast starter that is comfortable at 45 -55 °F_ (7-13C)"... This is the 24hr adjustment period for the yeast starter I was refering too above (ie his yeast starter should be brought to his starting temp of 8C 24hrs before pitching)

_"__To remove any diacetyl that may be present after primary fermentation, a diacetyl rest *may* be used. This rest at the end of primary fermentation consists of raising the temperature of the beer to 55-60 °F (13-16C) for *24 - 48 hours *before cooling it down for the lagering period. This makes the yeast more active and allows them to eat up the diacetyl before downshifting into lagering mode. Some yeast strains produce less diacetyl than others; *a diacetyl rest is needed only if the pitching or fermentation conditions warrant it*." _Palmer, John 1999 - Chapter 10.4 (http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter10-4.html)

So if Elmondo ferments at 8C for the entire primary fermentation he should be alright as the fermentation conditions don't really warrant a diacetyl rest. Even if he wants to do one anyway, as his brew may raise in temp during his fermenting period to the 15C he stated (possibly due to no temp control or possibly by design). Then he need only leave it for 24-48hr at 15C and not for 2 weeks (this is where I'm not sure if your total primary plus diacetyl rest is 2 weeks or your diacetyl rest is 2 weeks Elmondo?).


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## Yob (15/6/15)

Hardly suggesting that you won't need the d rest unless I missed something on the reading


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## Jack of all biers (15/6/15)

Yob said:


> Hardly suggesting that you won't need the d rest unless I missed something on the reading


I did put it in bold for you



Jack of all biers said:


> _ *a diacetyl rest is needed only if the pitching or fermentation conditions warrant it*." _


The key words in his sentence are; needed only also meaning only needed or required only. Very much suggesting (stating in fact) that a diacetyl rest is *only *needed if the "pitching or fermentation conditions warrant it" ergo *not* needed if the pitching or fermentation conditions don't warrant it.

We may just have to end up agreeing to disagree.

Edit - See the link that Elmondo put in the thread re Pilsner Urquell. http://morebeer.com/....3/urquell.html They don't raise their temp above 9C before lagering apparently so they don't do a diacetyl rest either.


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## Yob (15/6/15)

That's your interpretation, not how I understand it.


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## Black n Tan (15/6/15)

Pitching cold reduces the amount of diacetyl precursor and may obviate the need for a diacetyl rest. However before you rack it is wise to taste a sample for diacetyl but also perform a forced diacetyl test to check for diacetyl precursor. Most people don't do this so a diacetyl rest is a good insurance policy. I pitch cold but nevertheless perform a diacetyl rest routinely. The rest will clean up other off-flavour and in my opinion make a better lager.


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## Rocker1986 (15/6/15)

I do a diacetyl rest on all my lager batches as part of the fermentation schedule. It's routine now, but for exactly the reasons mentioned above. Haven't detected any buttery flavours so far, so it must be working.


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## Jack of all biers (16/6/15)

I'm not advocating everyone should ignore a diacetyl rest (hell I do them too when needed), just at 8C constant fermentation it probably isn't necessary if left in primary for 2 weeks.

Tests show that W-34/70 (Weihenstephan yeast) after 9 days at 10C fermentation (with no diacetyl rest) produces diacetyl 0.09 mg/L which is under the taste threshold level (0.1 mg/L) . W-206 at just 0.04 mg/L over taste threshold. Bad news is W-308 was 6.5 times the taste threshold under that test.
Read http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue1.2/fix.html


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## TheWiggman (16/6/15)

I think the concern Jack is that other factors will have a greater influence on diacetyl than pitching temp alone, namely pitching rate and yeast health. If we could pitch the equivalent of commercial rates (in the order of 60 smack packs of healthy yeast for some breweries) then diacetyl wouldn't be an issue.


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## Yob (16/6/15)

Jack of all biers said:


> We may just have to end up agreeing to disagree.
> .


Agreed


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## Black n Tan (16/6/15)

TheWiggman said:


> I think the concern Jack is that other factors will have a greater influence on diacetyl than pitching temp alone, namely pitching rate and yeast health. If we could pitch the equivalent of commercial rates (in the order of 60 smack packs of healthy yeast for some breweries) then diacetyl wouldn't be an issue.


Spot on Wiggman. Most home-brewers don't pitch enough healthy yeast and as such diacetyl is more likely so a diacetyl rest makes good sense.


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## Jack of all biers (16/6/15)

TheWiggman said:


> I think the concern Jack is that other factors will have a greater influence on diacetyl than pitching temp alone, namely pitching rate and yeast health. If we could pitch the equivalent of commercial rates (in the order of 60 smack packs of healthy yeast for some breweries) then diacetyl wouldn't be an issue.





Black n Tan said:


> Spot on Wiggman. Most home-brewers don't pitch enough healthy yeast and as such diacetyl is more likely so a diacetyl rest makes good sense.


I agree with you both. However if you go back to Elmondo's original post, he is pitching the yeast from a 10Litre starter and my comment about not needing to do a diacetyl rest was specifically for what he was doing, not a general comment for all. Please see my quote from Palmer above who schedules a 2 quart (just under 2 Litres) yeast starter. I think the amount of yeast Elmondo is producing with a three step oxygenated 10L starter is enough.


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## TheWiggman (16/6/15)

I'm going to go out on a limb here and take advice from sources I consider reliable, and my anecdotal experience that lines up with it. Some of the specifics are from excellent discussion in this thread (TB and Wolfy), reinforced by comments here from MHB.

When stepping up yeast, there is a right and wrong way to go about it. I believe that most home brewers go the wrong way about it. Stepping up in small increments negatively affects yeast _health_. Having lots of unhealthy yeast is going to throw all good intentions with fermentation into the wind as we're trying to bandaid a problem rather than fix the source.

As per OP's process, going from 2l > 4l > 10l is a 2x then 2.5x increase in stepping, assuming that all yeast slurry is used for the next step. This goes against recommended guidelines from the experts. Yes you will have a lot of yeast slurry, but you will also have yeast which has been trained to adjust itself to smaller wort:yeast ratios. This is where my knowledge ends and I'm not going to pretend to know what I'm on about.

This may be getting off-topic but we are talking about lager brewing. If there's one thing I've learned when using liquid yeast in a lager the management of the yeast and fermentation is critical to a good lager. Quite frankly I was blown away at the difference in the final product of my beers simply by managing my starter stepping, using O2 and yeast nutrient. On the fermentation side I haven't done much differently and still employ the diacetyl rest, but do it as a matter of course.


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## GalBrew (16/6/15)

I think employing a d-rest is just good practice in general. You might be pitching sufficiently, but unless you are testing for it, have no clue to overall yeast vitality. It's not like ramping up for a day or two is that hard??

Home brewing is never under 'ideal' conditions.


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## elmondo (6/7/15)

Good discussions guys.
I tend to reuse my yeast over several generations. I repitch the slurry from previous batches to my next batch. On the weekend I pitched my favourite Bavarian from Wyeast into wort at 6 degrees. I increased the temp of the wort to 8 degrees overnight and within 24 hours of pitching I had a pressure of 2 PSI in my fermentation keg.
This tells me the yeast is healthy. It has also gotten used to the yeast to wort ratios as it gets repitched into similar volumes each time.
I am finding that making Pilsners is really the hardest of all beer styles to make. You can just taste any flaws in them.
So now I have a couple of theories:
1. I could be tasting yeast autolysis. - In favour for this is the fact that I always find a yeast slurry in the bottom of the kegs which tastes unpleasant. Against - I had that awesome taste that I'm after in two batches where the keg was nearly empty and there was a high beer:yeast ratio. - Plan: Exclude residual yeast slurry. I will transfer my next batch to a lagering tank for 2 to 3 weeks and then filter to a serving keg to minimise the amount of yeast present.
2. I am not adding enough hops.
Plan - add more aroma hops.
3. The flavour may be diacetyl. For - ? I'm willing to try it. Against: cold pitch and 2 days at 15 degrees at end of primary fermentatio.
Plan - go for 3 days at 15 degrees.
One thing I have noted though: When I get that yeast cake and some of the trub out of the primary and store it in my sterile bottles, I can smell that beautiful European beer smell right there. The smell that you get when you crack and whiff a quality German beer.


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## elmondo (6/7/15)

On a different note....
first batch with the DIY control panel.
Shed some tears of joy and delight. Thanks to all the advice on the other threads and the electric brewery of course!


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## Rocker1986 (7/7/15)

I've been following this thread with some interest. I took a couple of SG samples of my Bo Pils late last week to confirm it had reached FG, which it had, and they tasted absolutely brilliant, for that stage of the process anyway. Pretty much exactly what I expected when I formulated the recipe. I hope they stay like that once bottled and carbed and don't lose any of it like yours have.


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## mfeighan (7/7/15)

diacetyl, diacetyl, diacetyl
I think a lot of you have missed that he is fermenting under pressure and @14c i have found since doing pressurised ferments my lagers have little to no diacetyl after primary has finished. I would account these correlations with the low pitch temp and the higher ferment temp when the pressure is up which allows the yeast enough energy to clean up its mess. I do leave it at 14 for about 2 weeks most of the ferment is done after 1 week at 14 deg.


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## verysupple (8/7/15)

Mikey said:


> diacetyl, diacetyl, diacetyl
> I think a lot of you have missed that he is fermenting under pressure and @14c i have found since doing pressurised ferments my lagers have little to no diacetyl after primary has finished. I would account these correlations with the low pitch temp and the higher ferment temp when the pressure is up which allows the yeast enough energy to clean up its mess. I do leave it at 14 for about 2 weeks most of the ferment is done after 1 week at 14 deg.


I'm not sure I follow you. You're saying that because of the way he ferments he doesn't get diacetyl. How does not having diacetyl make the flavour disappear after packaging?


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