# Biab & No Chill Comp Results



## Paul H (15/9/08)

GUys,
With 2 comps (NSW & WA) now completed I was wondering how the biab & no chillers held up against the more traditional brewers?

Cheers

Paul


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## matti (15/9/08)

I have a feeling they went extremely well.
Of course this is just a hunch. :lol:


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## kabooby (15/9/08)

I got two first places and two second places in the NSW comp. All beers were no chilled in cubes.

The Robust porter that came first actually spent 5 months in a cube  

Kabooby


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## stowaway (15/9/08)

kabooby said:


> I got two first places and two second places in the NSW comp. All beers were no chilled in cubes.
> 
> The Robust porter that came first actually spent 5 months in a cube
> 
> Kabooby



well done.
did it spend 5 months in a cube as wort? or cold conditioning?


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## kabooby (15/9/08)

stowaway said:


> well done.
> did it spend 5 months in a cube as wort? or cold conditioning?



5 months as wort

Kabooby :icon_cheers:


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## Stuster (15/9/08)

The APA that won Bathurst was no-chilled. :icon_cheers:


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## randyrob (15/9/08)

The APA that won the WA State Amatuer Brewers Comp was no-chilled.


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## Guest Lurker (15/9/08)

Cool. How about any no chilled lagers?

Any BIAB reports?


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## kabooby (15/9/08)

Guest Lurker said:


> Cool. How about any no chilled lagers?
> 
> Any BIAB reports?



My Vienna lager came a distant 2nd to Doc's Schwartzbier in the NSW comp.

Kabooby :icon_cheers:


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## sinkas (15/9/08)

My "Black Iron Prison" Belgian Ale that won its class was no chilled, in the kettle for 2 days


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## Darren (15/9/08)

I saw some strong lagers get caned at the SA state show on the weekend for DMS. I believe they were commercial beer judges with no affiliation to HB shops or kit manufacturers.

Who knows if they were no-chilled!!

cheers

Darren


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## MVZOOM (15/9/08)

Darren said:


> I saw some strong lagers get caned at the SA state show on the weekend for DMS. I believe they were commercial beer judges with no affiliation to HB shops or kit manufacturers.
> 
> Who knows if they were no-chilled!!
> 
> ...



Judging from the above, likely that they weren't. :icon_chickcheers: 

Cheers - Mike


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## browndog (15/9/08)

TOP EFFORT guys, and not a case of botulism to be seen  I think the only thing that remains to be seen is the stability of the beer over a long period.

cheers

Browndog


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## Kai (16/9/08)

randyrob said:


> The APA that won the WA State Amatuer Brewers Comp was no-chilled.



Nice work, Rob!


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## ~MikE (16/9/08)

does anyone actually KNOW of any botulism cases from no-chilling?


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## Paul H (16/9/08)

~MikE said:


> does anyone actually KNOW of any botulism cases from no-chilling?



"Dead men tell no tales"


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## Vlad the Pale Aler (16/9/08)

WA comp, two firsts, two seconds no chilled, a third place rapid chilled.


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## Stuster (16/9/08)

Vlad the Pale Aler said:


> WA comp, two firsts, two seconds no chilled, a third place rapid chilled.



Which clearly proves that rapid chilling will wreck your beer.


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## kook (16/9/08)

Darren said:


> I believe they were commercial beer judges with no affiliation to HB shops or kit manufacturers.



As were the judges at WASABC (no affiliation).


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## Tony (16/9/08)

browndog said:


> TOP EFFORT guys, and not a case of botulism to be seen  I think the only thing that remains to be seen is the stability of the beer over a long period.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog



Have said this one before but on topic here

Brewed English strong ale 3 years ago.

Cubed in a blue Kmart cube with 2 inches of airspace in the cube (left full of air) for a couple of months

brewed and entered in the last 3 NSW state comps.

1st year did well but needed time to smooth out, no placing
2nd year. Won champion beer and got a 1st in catagory in the AABC
3rd year, got 2nd behind Docs IAPA that killed the judges taste buds from anything that tasted like beer  

ENteres a few others in the NSW comp that didnt do well but im fairly sure they had faults from yeast and posible infection but i couldnt put my finger on what...... entered for feedback and cant wait for my sheets to return

cheers


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## Stuster (16/9/08)

Tony said:


> entered for feedback and cant wait for my sheets to return



Posted out today, so should be there tomorrow or the next day. Finally. I had so much work on all last week there was no time to get them all in envelopes but got it done Sunday night and last night. Phew.


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## Tony (16/9/08)

Your a champ Stu, thanks for your hard work mate.

cheers


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## Guest Lurker (16/9/08)

Oh, how quaint, snail mailing out judging sheets! Anyway, back to the question, of the no chill prize winners, were any of them lagers?


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## Tony (16/9/08)

from me thats a NO

Im an Ale No chiller


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## browndog (16/9/08)

Tony said:


> Have said this one before but on topic here
> 
> Brewed English strong ale 3 years ago.
> 
> ...



Well, I think that answers the stability question, I've never had a beer last more than a couple of months anyway.

cheers

Browndog


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## Doc (16/9/08)

My entries

*NSW Comp 2008*

Three 1st Places.
One was "Best of Show"
One was "Highest Scoring Beer"

All were NO CHILL.
All were Full Mash.

*Bathurst Comp 2008*

One 1st Place
One 3rd Place
One Highly Commended

All were NO CHILL.
All were Full Mash.

Beers,
Doc


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## PostModern (16/9/08)

But Doc, how's the botulism? All that DMS must have made the judges immune!


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## Doc (16/9/08)

PostModern said:


> But Doc, how's the botulism? All that DMS must have made the judges immune!



Don't give away my competition secrets  

Doc


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## Tony (16/9/08)

couldnt taste the DMS for the hops...........

Come on Doc......... a little bite 

COngrats on all your great results too mate!


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## Duff (17/9/08)

Guest Lurker said:


> Oh, how quaint, snail mailing out judging sheets! Anyway, back to the question, of the no chill prize winners, were any of them lagers?



I got a Gold last year in the Bitter and Twisted with a no chill Bohemian Pilsener.


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## Paul H (17/9/08)

Any news on the BIAB results?

Cheers

Paul


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## PostModern (17/9/08)

Paul H said:


> Any news on the BIAB results?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Paul




*tumbleweed*


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## randyrob (17/9/08)

Paul H said:


> Any news on the BIAB results?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Paul



maybe you guys are looking at this from the wrong angle!

perhaps these biab beers are so good and tasty they don't want to be wasting it on the judges?

Rob.


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## PistolPatch (17/9/08)

I didn't have any decent beers to put in the WA comp but did enter 3 beers (in 4 categories!) under my own name rather than PP.

Ive been battling with a weird taste for ages that goes away after about 4 weeks. This has been driving me nuts so I sent in 3 beers I had just brewed that most exhibited this weird taste and I think WA judge No2 might have given me the answer. Whoever you are, thank you. I thought I had returned everything back to the way I used to brew but didnt even think of the thing you mentioned. Hanging to try this on my next brew.

So my entries were aimed soley at identifying this problem. Only one entry was even of the correct style!!! For example, the beer I had that best exhibited this funny flavour was a low-alcohol, irish red grain bill with US-56 yeast. Now where do you put that? I put it under light lager  

Hopefully next time a comp comes around Ill have this problem fixed and Ill be cheating by asking nev and rob (both Gold winners) if I can use one of their recipes to ensure I have something that is to style and wont inflict pain on any judges!

Thanks to all the judges and kook. That was a fun and worthwhile exercise.

:icon_cheers: 
Pat


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## ikern (18/9/08)

PistolPatch said:


> Ive been battling with a weird taste for ages that goes away after about 4 weeks. This has been driving me nuts so I sent in 3 beers I had just brewed that most exhibited this weird taste and I think WA judge No2 might have given me the answer. Whoever you are, thank you. I thought I had returned everything back to the way I used to brew but didnt even think of the thing you mentioned. Hanging to try this on my next brew.



And the possible problem identified was.....??


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## PistolPatch (18/9/08)

soznewb said:


> And the possible problem identified was.....??



Acetaldehyde. The comment from Judge 2 said, "My concern is part of the fruit character is acetaldehyde - check yeast health/oxygenation/drop fermentation temperature and don't remove yeast too soon."

I am hoping the answer lies in aeration. I used to re-use my yeast many times and never had this problem. Then I went through a lazy period - 60 minute mash, 60 minute boil, a sachet of yeast and bugger-all aeration of wort and yeast. At around the same time, grain and the main yeast I use had changed a little as well. Too many changes and poor record-keeping at the time made the faulty change in my brewing techniques hard to identify.

The judges comments above, jolted me to remember how well I used to aerate my yeast and wort. So, on the next brew, I'll return to my original practices in this area. I'll be wrapped if this fixes it - I hate that flavour! It's a strange flavour too. A lot of people can't taste it in my beer and occassionally I won't taste it at all until my second or third glass and then it suddenly becomes apparent and over-whelming to me. Weird!

Spot ya,
Pat


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## kram (18/9/08)

PistolPatch said:


> Acetaldehyde. The comment from Judge 2 said, "My concern is part of the fruit character is acetaldehyde - check yeast health/oxygenation/drop fermentation temperature and don't remove yeast too soon."


This is the comment i'm hoping for one, maybe two of my entries in the QABC. One has this character upfront the other is more hidden by the malts.


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## drtomc (18/9/08)

~MikE said:


> does anyone actually KNOW of any botulism cases from no-chilling?



I can only recall to my mind a single botulism *death* in the last couple of years - take-away nachos. A relative was the microbiologist on the case. Don't know about non-fatal cases though.

The only conclusion I draw from that is that the following observation about Melbourne restaurants is true: Melbourne has no bad Thai restaurants, and no good Mexican ones. ;-)

T.


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## buttersd70 (18/9/08)

I;ve fot to say, guys, as a "fence sitter" in the whole chill/no chill bitching that happens on this site, I'm finding this thread particularly interesting.  
My experience with no chill is good; but I've had lingering doubts, as everything I've done to date has been drunk young (part as per style, part as per need), and have thought that no chill was "for the time being" in my case. But these kind of results are pushing me towards permanancy....

Congrats to all the place getters.


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## sinkas (18/9/08)

Acetaldehyde, is generally due to over pitching and or over aearation, or too high initial pitch temp, casuing a fast and flawed fermentation.


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## Stuster (18/9/08)

sinkas said:


> Acetaldehyde, is generally due to over pitching and or over aearation, or too high initial pitch temp, casuing a fast and flawed fermentation.



I've never really heard those reasons given for acetaldehyde. Not saying you're wrong but that's sort of the opposite to what I've seen. I've always found this a good quick reference point. AFAIK, acetaldehyde is an intermediate compound which is reduced by the yeast to alcohol. So if the yeast are not healthy and/or there are not enough of them in the first place, they are not able to complete this task completely. Alternatively, early racking does pretty much the same thing.

Anyway, back on topic, I've never placed with a no-chill lager, but I've got a few places with hybrids (alts and Cal commons) and my Dortmunder scored 101.5 in the recent Bathurst comp, including a 36 from Barry Cranston so it probably wasn't a bad beer. Still needs some work though and I hope to enter a different version of it in something next year.


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## Thirsty Boy (18/9/08)

Stuster said:


> I've never really heard those reasons given for acetaldehyde. Not saying you're wrong but that's sort of the opposite to what I've seen. I've always found this a good quick reference point. AFAIK, acetaldehyde is an intermediate compound which is reduced by the yeast to alcohol. So if the yeast are not healthy and/or there are not enough of them in the first place, they are not able to complete this task completely. Alternatively, early racking does pretty much the same thing.
> 
> Anyway, back on topic, I've never placed with a no-chill lager, but I've got a few places with hybrids (alts and Cal commons) and my Dortmunder scored 101.5 in the recent Bathurst comp, including a 36 from Barry Cranston so it probably wasn't a bad beer. Still needs some work though and I hope to enter a different version of it in something next year.




Everyone's a little bit right - 

From Kunze Technology Brewing and Malting View attachment acetaldehyde_kunze.pdf


I have a few Chilled a few No-Chilled and even one BiaB going into the Vic comp and ANAWBS coming up... see how they go.

TB


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## RobB (19/9/08)

I'm probably one of the least experienced AG'ers on the forum, but in a way that has given me the advantage of having a very open mind when comparing different techniques. I don't have any emotional attachment to any particular method of brewing.

I have BIABed and batch sparged, chilled and no-chilled. I haven't entered a competition yet, but I've been happy with the results that each of these methods produces.

Despite my lack of experience, I'm going to stick my neck out and say that the importance of your chilling or mashing method is insignificant when compared to the control you have over your fermentation. When my lag time is short, my fermentation vigorous and my temperature right where I want it, I get great beer regardless of how the wort was produced. When my yeast gets lazy or upset, that's when things start to go awry. Assuming that your recipe and hygeine are up to scratch, keeping your yeast happy is by far your most important job when making great beer.

I'm asking Santa for a temperature controller and a stir plate is on my to-do list. Once I'm happy that I'm in control of my fermentation, look out judges!

As for the lack of BIAB winners, I think that BIAB is probably most common among newer brewers. Chances are that they wouldn't be going home with the silverware regardless of their method. In the hands of a brewer who already wins medals on his traditional system (and there are a few on this thread alone), maybe a BIAB brew would be a winner. This seems to have happened with one of Pat's american minions who recently scored 47/50.

Just my thoughts......

Cheers,

Rob


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## Tim (19/9/08)

Stuster said:


> I've never really heard those reasons given for acetaldehyde. Not saying you're wrong but that's sort of the opposite to what I've seen. I've always found this a good quick reference point. AFAIK, acetaldehyde is an intermediate compound which is reduced by the yeast to alcohol. So if the yeast are not healthy and/or there are not enough of them in the first place, they are not able to complete this task completely. Alternatively, early racking does pretty much the same thing.
> 
> Anyway, back on topic, I've never placed with a no-chill lager, but I've got a few places with hybrids (alts and Cal commons) and my Dortmunder scored 101.5 in the recent Bathurst comp, including a 36 from Barry Cranston so it probably wasn't a bad beer. Still needs some work though and I hope to enter a different version of it in something next year.




Acetaldehyde can also be caused by oxidation of ethyl alcohol. It first oxidises from ethanol to acetaldehyde and then to acetic acid. But you would only see this if you introduced a fair quantity of oxygen after primary fermentation. But could also occur if you introduce more oxygen before fermentation than the yeast can consume.
For the real nerds!

CH3CHOH --> CH3C(O)H --> CH3COOH


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## kram (22/9/08)

My Schwarzbier was no-chilled and got Champion Beer (1st) in the QABC.


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## Katherine (25/9/08)

> 'm probably one of the least experienced AG'ers on the forum, but in a way that has given me the advantage of having a very open mind when comparing different techniques. I don't have any emotional attachment to any particular method of brewing.




You say that, but one of your beers has being one of the best home brew beer I have ever tasted...


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## AndrewQLD (25/9/08)

All three of my beers (MaiBock 1st, British Ale 1st and Dusseldorfer Alt 2nd) that earnt me Champion Brewer in the QABC were no chilled, I haven't chilled a wort in over a year.

Andrew


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## Thirsty Boy (8/11/08)

I was going over my brewing notes and it dawned on me that I had a relevant contribution for this thread

Lager and No-Chill - My BOS Vienna Lager at Vicbrew was a No-Chill beer, also got a bronze at the AABC

and more unusually

The Apricot Berlinerweiss that won the Fruit/Specialty category at Vicbrew, was for all intents and purposes a BIAB beer. I had forgotten. That beer was an intentional blend of three different beers. Two of those three beers (including the base beer) were BIAB.

The base beer was a 50/50 lager malt / wheat malt beer - 15.7 litres to 1.030 fermented with lager yeast (stovetop BIAB)

The second beer was a batch of strong golden ale - It was about a 4L (stovetop BIAB) batch @ 1.080 and fermented entirely with a culture grown up from orval dregs. The golden ale was way too funky - but thats OK because I wanted to dilute it into a much larger volume anyway. 1.5L of this stuff was diluted into 4L (the equivalent of a 1.030 OG) and went into the BW

The third beer was a 2.5L batch made up to 1.030 from DME - it was fermented with a tablespoon of clear juice collected from the surface of a container of natural yoghurt. ie: it was a nice pure lactic bacteria strain. 

Altogether that gave me 21.7 litres - which was blended into a secondary fermentor onto about 1kg of chopped dried apricots for a month or so before kegging.

So there you go - a first place in a major comp with a beer that was 88.5% BIAB

Not sure if that means anything much - but its been done now... sort of  

Thirsty


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## kram (8/11/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Lager and No-Chill - My BOS Vienna Lager at Vicbrew was a No-Chill beer, also got a bronze at the AABC


Haha I can already hear a certain member mumbling away with the nochill lager combo.

Congrats on the success


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## dr K (8/11/08)

Interesting thread.
Pretty much proves that you are no more likely to produce botulism in "No-Chill" than you are in standard heat exchange cooling, given the number of surviving judges!! It also indicates that "no-chill" is not going to damage your beers to the point where they fail to do well in comps (if at all).
BIAB seems to have a pretty big following in Australia even if it is, in some critics opinions, fundamentally flawed, so I would have thought that over the last how ever many weeks this thread has been open we would have heard some proud crowing from successful BIAB Boys and Girls.
Hardly a word and certainly no silverware in the defined styles.
Why?..surely from the thousand or more entries (no doubt a lot of kits in there as well) in the 2008 AABC and feeder comps there were some BIABS...well there were certainly at least 3 or 4 , which were entered in the wrong categories, apparently,hindsight in hand ,deliberately.
It would be interesting to know.

K


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## wakkatoo (9/11/08)

Thirsty boy - feel better now??  :lol: 

I'm sensing some stress, and I prescribe to you a course of amber liquid. Now go forth and self medicate :lol:


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## Thirsty Boy (9/11/08)

wakkatoo said:


> Thirsty boy - feel better now??  :lol:
> 
> I'm sensing some stress, and I prescribe to you a course of amber liquid. Now go forth and self medicate :lol:



You're right - I have deleted the post I made that you refer to above. It was not particularly vulgar or offensive. Although it was mildly insulting.

It also dignified dr K's pathetic squawking with far more response than it could ever deserve. I thought better of it.


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## Darren (9/11/08)

Dr. K and Thirty Boy,

You keep quoting Botulism. I think if you were actually the intelligent guys you profess to be, you (and all the other knockers) will find that I have always said that the biggest issues for repeat-no chillers (same cube) are heat-resistent beer SPOILAGE organisms.

You will get away with no-chilling in the same cube for a while but eventually it will come and bite you in the fermenter.

I know, I know, someone has done a thousand no-chill beers in the same non-food grade container ,without use of sanitiser and not had a problem.


cheers

Darren


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## Weizguy (9/11/08)

Darren said:


> Dr. K and Thirty Boy,
> 
> You keep quoting Botulism. I think if you were actually the intelligent guys you profess to be, you (and all the other knockers) will find that I have always said that the biggest issues for repeat-no chillers (same cube) are heat-resistent beer SPOILAGE organisms.
> 
> ...


Good point, Darren.
I always sanitise between uses of the cube or jerry can, and reckon that anyone would be inviting disaster if they didn't.

Good to see you back and refreshed. How was that holiday?


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## Thirsty Boy (9/11/08)

I never said anything about botulism....

BUT, I also agree with you and wouldn't think about missing a "normal" sanitising regime on the cube in addition to that provided by the heat. The cube is as sanitary as I am capable of getting it before wort goes anywhere near it.

I generally use a Phosphoric Acid sanitiser (starsan) because it helps to combat beerstone build up in the cube, but every few brews will swap to one or the other of an Iodophor or an Acidified Bleach (I know, I know...), just to make sure there is no build up of spoilage organisms that are resistant to both heat AND the acid sanitiser.

I do the sanitiser swapping thing for my cubes and all my other brewing equipment as well.

A timely reminder for all us No-Chillers out there. Just because NC is easy is no reason to get slack and turn down the sanitising def con - the spoilers will come to get you ...... and Darren is watching.


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## James Squire (9/11/08)

My first foray into AG brewing was what I called All-in-one brewing. It was sort of the predecessor of BIAB. 

I entered one of my early beers into ANAWBS in 2007 and it took 3rd place in the Sparkling Ale category. Not exactly BIAB but same principal. I've since moved on to traditional mash brewing, while BIAB is a great way to enter AG brewing it does have it's limitations. It still makes award winning beer though! 

Cheers.

Cale.


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## reviled (31/8/09)

Just got a silver medal in the SOBA NHC for my Bourbon Porter which was my 3rd AG and brewed with BIAB and No-Chill B)


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## Bribie G (31/8/09)

Well deserved, had a swig of it at the Case Swap, nice drop :icon_cheers:


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## reviled (31/8/09)

BribieG said:


> Well deserved, had a swig of it at the Case Swap, nice drop :icon_cheers:



Cheers mate :beer:


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## Katherine (31/8/09)

reviled said:


> Just got a silver medal in the SOBA NHC for my Bourbon Porter which was my 3rd AG and brewed with BIAB and No-Chill B)





:super: 

up yours Chap Chap


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## Bribie G (31/8/09)

Katie said:


> :super:
> 
> up yours Chap Chap



Chappo only claims to hate BIAB, he was plied with the stuff a couple of months ago and I think his problem is that he woke up the next morning feeling dirty and used





:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## chappo1970 (31/8/09)

reviled said:


> Just got a silver medal in the SOBA NHC for my Bourbon Porter which was my 3rd AG and brewed with BIAB and No-Chill B)



Well done RevKnut! Kudos to ya and yes it was a good drop as BribieG said!



Katie said:


> :super:
> 
> up yours Chap Chap



:lol: 

I can understand your feelings of inferiority. You BIABers are such a touchy crowd must stem from stewing your grains.... h34r:


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## Bribie G (31/8/09)

No only the unmodified Crown owners stew their grains, we Birko owners do them at a good rolling boil before sparging in the bucket. B)


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## crundle (31/8/09)

BribieG said:


> No only the unmodified Crown owners stew their grains, we Birko owners do them at a good rolling boil before sparging in the bucket. B)



+1!

Love the Crown urn now it has been modded, all is forgiven Crown!

Crundle


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## Stagger (31/8/09)

This is very timely, I have been very interested in this topic, 

In the up coming Nationals to be held in Canberra, on the entry form it will have a box to indicate if it is a conventional beer, brew in a bag or no chill for those who would like to indicate how they brew there beer. This will not be compulsory but interesting non the less. I know that not all brewers are into competitions, and it may not be a true reflection on the overall brewing style but I believe it will be great to see how the different styles stack up against each other.

This is just for information, nothing to do with the Nationals categories, brewers DO not need to indicate if they so wish.

Craig


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## pdilley (31/8/09)

Not a competition guy Stagger though I'll help out at the Nats 2009.

I'll bring you in my BIAB Amarillo Ale next meet as Im now working on balancing the fruitiness to cleanliness of ferment and bitterness to malt. First of the balancing attempts done.

Too early to bring in my BIAB hefe as I've been building bee hived so its sat in the fermemter on the counter all this time waiting bottling so next meeting following this upcomming one for that. Clean as the beer from Germany I cultured it from. Next hefe I will punch the temps to bring out the fruity banana some members seem to enjoy lots of.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## Bribie G (31/8/09)

Stagger, I take it that such information would be disclosed after the judging, not before? This would certainly be a useful exercise. As I posted on another thread a few weeks ago, BIAB brews have not featured a lot in comp wins for the main reason that we are mostly novice / recent recruits to AG and are not at the same level of knowledge and experience of brewers who have been in the game for several years. They, by default, are 3 vessel brewers with a couple of notable stand outs  
However with a cohort of BIABers who have been coming up through the ranks over the last couple of years it will be interesting to see how the comp results stack up over the next few years. 

Same goes for no chill as well.


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## Stagger (1/9/09)

Absolutely, no information will EVER be disclosed before a comp, in fact only one person (the comp sec) will be privy to the entre forms. I believe this would be very useful information for everyone, consideration our national climate. If the non traditional brewing techniques stack up against the more traditional brewing process in the national comp, it might raise a few eyebrows. 

This is, in no way compulsory, but considering we will have the best of the best from each state (that choose to entre comps) might be a worthwhile exercise.

Craig


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## Bribie G (20/9/09)

Bump:

Just announcing some BIAB Results for the Queensland Comp held over the weekend. Of course this is just the ones I know about as I brewed them  and a lot of the entrants I don't recognise their human names so can't speak for BIABers amongst them but, if BIABBing please pipe up: :icon_cheers: 




Not all these appeared in the overall placings as they were pipped by higher scoring beers of course but I was pleased to see my SuperLandlord did so well, thanks to the Good Doc for his tireless work on TTL which has really inspired me. However the beer that really warms the cockles of my BIAB heart is the 'ordinary' bitter that picked up a bronze, it's a modern British Summer Ale, midstrength and refreshing, and based on what I remember Boddingtons to be in the past.




It is, to my way of thinking, a vindication of BIAB as being able to produce a light clean beer - in the face of some recent critisism that BIAB is only good for dark ales and stouts. 

Brilliant comp, was running like clockwork when I was in there yesterday, and incredible job being done by all, together with a couple of Canberra judges.. Thanks for making the trip, and watch out for us Baggies in the Nats :icon_drunk: :icon_drunk:


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## bigfridge (20/9/09)

reviled said:


> Just got a silver medal in the SOBA NHC for my Bourbon Porter which was my 3rd AG and brewed with BIAB and No-Chill



What ! ONLY a silver !!!

Imagine how well you would have gone if you had NOT used BIAB and No-Chill - Gold at the very least !


:lol: :lol:


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## buttersd70 (20/9/09)

42.5 on the Mild, eh..... :lol: 
Goodun, chief. I think you would have got another 2 and a half points if you'd taken my suggestions to the letter........bwwwaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh  :lol:


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## raven19 (21/9/09)

Well done on the success BribieG !!! :icon_cheers: 

Cheers to you good sir.


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## Katherine (21/9/09)

Well done Bribie....


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## reviled (21/9/09)

Congrats Bribie, well deserved :icon_cheers: 

Wheres Maxt now eh? :lol:


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## Scruffy (21/9/09)

reviled said:


> Congrats Bribie, well deserved :icon_cheers:
> 
> Wheres Maxt now eh? :lol:


Nicely done Mr B sir...

I'm sure I saw Maxt at Bunnings researching a new hobby...


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## Maxt (21/9/09)

Scruffy said:


> Nicely done Mr B sir...
> 
> I'm sure I saw Maxt at Bunnings researching a new hobby...



Nah I'm right here, and enjoyed judging the QLD beers. 

Scruffy, are you suggesting I sell my 3 tiered system and go BIAB? Your dreamin'. 

I have tried many many good traditionaly brewed beers, and until I get to sample good BIAB ones (like Bribie's obviously are), then I am happy with mashing the 'old fashioned way'.

As I have said all along, if the beer is good I'll drink it. Plenty of crap traditionally mashed beers out there as well.

Anyway Reviled, let's see how the cookie crumbles come nationals time eh bro?


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## Scruffy (21/9/09)

Maxt said:


> Scruffy, are you suggesting I sell my 3 tiered system and go BIAB? Your dreamin'.



God No mate! you stick to yer old boiler...

Apart from the odd ribbing, we're all on the same page...

:icon_cheers: 

As for my BIAB efforts - I made it to the 'complete results' list (...  ), so some refinement required I guess...


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## reviled (21/9/09)

Maxt said:


> Anyway Reviled, let's see how the cookie crumbles come nationals time eh bro?



In case you havnt noticed, i live over in NZ, so wont be entering the aussie nats, however I have recently just got my results for the NZ nationals, and I got me a silver medal :icon_cheers: I wont be entering the Aussie nats, but would love to!

I also know of one BIAB'er who has allready qualified for the Aussie nats, so im gonna stick my neck out there and say that any BIAB'er has just as much chance to clean up over a traditional brewer  

Convert the 3 tier system to a BIAB one Maxt, you know you want to


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## Bribie G (21/9/09)

Max, were you at the Platform Bar Saturday? I was there for an hour, probably filled your water glass on my rounds and didn't know you were there! Bugger. I didn't know we had Canberrians until that evening when Ross mentioned it in a post. Sorry we didn't get to meet up

Cheers
Michael :icon_cheers:


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## katzke (21/9/09)

BribieG said:


> However the beer that really warms the cockles of my BIAB heart is the 'ordinary' bitter that picked up a bronze, it's a modern British Summer Ale, midstrength and refreshing, and based on what I remember Boddingtons to be in the past.



Care to share you OB recipe? I have had one terrible failure and one that I may be able to drink, though I am not sure I want to (long story on the second one).

Include any water tweaks you do as I think we have very similar water.

Thanks


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## Bribie G (21/9/09)

Katzke I'll pm you the recipe, I'm brewing a fresh batch today to enter in the Nats and I'd rather not post until I see whether it does ok or bombs miserably  
Also it uses Wyeast 1469 West yorks but you could sub Ringwood.

:icon_cheers:


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## BjornJ (24/9/09)

dr K said:


> BIAB seems to have a pretty big following in Australia even if it is, in some critics opinions, fundamentally flawed, so I would have thought that over the last how ever many weeks this thread has been open we would have heard some proud crowing from successful BIAB Boys and Girls.
> 
> K




Sorry for butting in, I am very green to the AG thing with only the 3rd one coming up this weekend.
Learning about this from reading on this site, the whole BIAB and NC thing seems "natural" as I didn't know of any other way before trying BIAB.
However, I have read my Palmer and it is clear that there is way more going on while brewing and fermenting than I will ever even try to understand  

But one thing that keep popping up on the forums is that brewers using "other" ways to brew with more vessels and proper lautering/mashing tuns, etc seem to seriously distrust the whole BIAB thing?

Not trying to be funny here, just asking what the concerns are from experienced brewers about BIAB.
Is the concern that the temperature control is not as good, the grain/water ratio changes the extraction chemistry, or what are the things that make the more experienced brewers with the full kit say the traditional method is better?

(my BIAB came last in the tasting competition last Saturday at the Northern Beaches brewing club but there is no doubt the brewer is to blame for that one)  

Thanks
Bjorn


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## reviled (24/9/09)

BjornJ said:


> Not trying to be funny here, just asking what the concerns are from experienced brewers about BIAB.
> Is the concern that the temperature control is not as good, the grain/water ratio changes the extraction chemistry, or what are the things that make the more experienced brewers with the full kit say the traditional method is better?



Its cos theyre afraid  Its like the Americans being afraid of the first black president :lol:


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## crundle (24/9/09)

If you ever get around to reading the entire BIAB thread (set aside a few days at least), then it seems the initial concern was the grain/water ratio might lead to a more dextrinous wort from memory (derived in great part from John Palmer's How to Brew book), then when that didn't really manifest in a noticeable way, the concern changed to long term stability of beers made using the BIAB method. I'm not really sure about that part of it, as I am still fermenting a Doppelbock that I will bottle and keep for a year.

Another concern seemed to be that the method might be best suited to darker beers, but I think that Bribie and some others are making some excellent light beers, so that one is probably about to be debunked also.

Having said all that, it seems like a foregone conclusion that BIAB would work as well as it does, but it must be remembered that the bulk of brewing information out at the time seemed to point in the opposite direction, so please don't take my comments to imply that those who advocated potential issues with BIAB that did not eventuate are stupid or anything, because it was a lot of their comments that drove others to investigate the issues fairly thoroughly, and their vocalising of potential issues is part of the reason that BIAB has become so popular.

EDIT: I came in 5th place in the SABSOSA in the Porter, and well down the list with my smoked pale ale, so hopefully do better next year and get to enter in a lot more categories! I now understand the idea of brewing for competitions and trying to make sure your beers are at their peak in time for the comps...

It will be interesting to see the results after the Nationals in regards to BIAB/Traditional 3 Vessel and No Chill/Chiller

Crundle


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## RdeVjun (24/9/09)

Yeah, there's been plenty of sniping at BIAB techniques and also of other techniques too. In the last few months though there's been quite a few comps where BIAB has done well, and the technique earned a few medals up here in Qld just last weekend AFAIK, I don't have the numbers but I'm fairly sure our fellow BIABers put in a very decent performance.
But what I do feel strongly about is that the technique is an appropriate and very low cost means for a brewer to try their hand at all grain brewing. As I've said before, anyone who has brewed kits will only need a bag, a stockpot and perhaps a thermometer to trial the method. The cost of a more traditional system, even adapting commonly- available domestic goods could be prohibitive just for an experiment, and if the brewer decides for some reason that it may be better for them to stick with kits or extract then there hasn't been this significant outlay to absorb in equipment which could be thereafter largely useless. On the other hand, a bag can be had for <$10 and a $20 stockpot needs no modification at all (i.e. so can be used for other purposes), so for around $50 or $60 to include some ingredients and a thermometer, a kit brewer can try an all grain method without the risk of it being an expensive disappointment. That's one of the big pluses I can see with stockpot BIABing, and I'll not criticize anyone if they try it and decide it just isn't for them.
Advancing on from there to different techniques can be relatively straightforward but, truth be told, I've actually failed to see the need so far- I'm still using a stove- top/ stockpot/ BIAB/ bucket- sparge method in much the same way as my very first and have been pleased as punch with the results. My attitude is that its MY beer and if MY technique works for ME then there's no biggie, I don't think one way is right and one way is wrong, it just means they're different. :icon_cheers:


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## crundle (24/9/09)

I have nothing to back this up of course, but even within traditional 3 vessel setups there was probably consternation when people began to experiment with different sparging methods,etc. 

When anything new is tried, there is resistance to change, which is healthy if it is constructive and detailed, and can help create better methods based on evidence rather than intuition. No chilling seems to be a case in point given that it is used by both BIAB'ers and traditional folk. It still has some grey areas such as bitterness and hop aroma, but that may also be a variable due to the differences between individual breweries more so than the actual cubes, given the conflicting anecdotal evidence of many on this forum on the effects of no chilling.

What isn't in dispute though is the number of people who exclusively no chill and still produce fine beers.

@RdeVjun - I agree with you that BIAB gives an easy entry point into AG. I waited for months reading up and working out which way to go, traditional or BIAB, and then when I settled on BIAB it was a decision of a large pot or an urn, which fell the way of the urn. If I had had the benefit of your even lower entry point into AG I would have given it a crack for sure, and probably much sooner than I eventually did. One AG brew is all it takes to get hooked!


Crundle


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## Katherine (24/9/09)

If you have a love of brewing. It does not matter what method you use. We love the process and constantly making changes as we get to know our own equipment! 

Lloydie and I got a place in the Nationals with KT's hopburst! first comp also!

Katie


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## drsmurto (24/9/09)

I thought the concern was the introduction of a sewing machine to the required brewing gear....  


:lol:


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## RdeVjun (24/9/09)

crundle said:


> @RdeVjun - I agree with you that BIAB gives an easy entry point into AG. I waited for months reading up and working out which way to go, traditional or BIAB, and then when I settled on BIAB it was a decision of a large pot or an urn, which fell the way of the urn. If I had had the benefit of your even lower entry point into AG I would have given it a crack for sure, and probably much sooner than I eventually did. One AG brew is all it takes to get hooked!


+ 1 mate, but what I didn't realise is that I had all of the kit, just bar a bag, on hand all the time! Jeez I felt silly when I figured that out! I should've spent less time reading and more time actually doing things! 
Getting a bigger 20 litre pot though made for happier days and bigger batches, but I bided my time for a few months until they showed up at big double u for $20, although I'm always on the lookout for a 30 or 40 litre pots.
I've just recently realised though that I have had a pair of cleanskin stainless firkins sitting here all along too, was going to use them in a 3-v or herms, but as I say, I haven't been in much of a rush to do that. So I have been preparing to use one for the next TTL-esque BIAB batch this weekend, although the stove may struggle to get it boiling, the 20 litre stockpot takes a fair while (>1/2 hour) to get up to boiling after the mash, but once there it can maintain it throughout the boil with ease.
(Firkin: ~40 litre keg- we had the tops cut off when we used them for dairying- should be perfect for brewing!)

Urn/ stockpot, doesn't matter- both achieve the same end and both knock out some cracking beers! :icon_cheers: 

@Dr S: Go on, you know you just want to sew something!


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## chappo1970 (24/9/09)

Or Mum getting upset that her pillowcases where missing h34r: 

@*BjornJ

*In all seriousiness I don't have an issue with this _method_ of brewing at all and I am a 3V HERMS man. In fact I intend to build my little experimantal system around BIAB equipment and methods because it is cheap, practical and simplistic. TB has said it before the BIAB method/process is not new or revolutionary either it has been done before in a different clothes. 

I think what the problem is BIABer, themselves, see it as inferior for some reason and rush to defend it, no one rushes HERMS in the same way. Don't see threads on "HERMS competition wins" do we? (FLAME SUIT ON  ) Guys who know me and have met would say I show BIAB brewers the same respect for their knowledge as any other brewer. What we need to remember here is the only difference in BIAB over 3V is the mash! That's it everything else is the same. BIAB is just a process which is really starting to evolve and take off which is the same as HERMS. You've got to remember to my knowledge no commercial brewer actually uses HERMS as a brewing method and it got pood in simular fashion. 

But as more and more brewers move to BIAB as a cheap gateway to AG brewing the technical aspects and procedures are getting better and better. From 1st hand experience I can tell you the quality of the beer does not suffer from the expense of the equipment but more from the brewer and his ability as a brewer any day.

Peace! :beerbang: 

Chap Chap


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## crundle (24/9/09)

Katie said:


> If you have a love of brewing. It does not matter what method you use. We love the process and constantly making changes as we get to know our own equipment!
> 
> Lloydie and I got a place in the Nationals with KT's hopburst! first comp also!
> 
> Katie




Top stuff Katie and Lloydie! I plan on making something based on your hopburst very soon, it sounds like a great recipe and obviously the judges felt the same way.

cheers,

Crundle


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## Bribie G (24/9/09)

There's nothing new about BIAB (sorry Pistol Patch and Thirsty Boy), it has always been very popular in the UK but as a two vessel setup because the hugely popular BruHeat boilers are only 25 L and some sparging is required, so some juggling of vessels is necessary. Many HB supply houses chuck in a free bag if you buy a BruHeat. I used that system in the UK back into the 70s and it's still popular despite many brewers going the Bling road and setting up HERMS systems whatever.

What makes BIAB a more attractive proposition here in Austraila is the widespread availablity of affordable 40L urns. Even better would be a 50 or 60 if such a thing were on the market, but as it is we can do a full volume brew of "normal" strength beers using just the one bit of kit.


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## Katherine (24/9/09)

Chap Chap

check this out... there not so much Commerical brewers + micro! 

Kooinda


I actually don't feel inferior at all! The jokes just get boring! when this thread started BIAB was relatively new so were the brewers that used the method! 

I must admit I use our system at its simpliest, Lloydie is more of a techo then me so he is constantly making changes for our benefit! 

Katie

thank you Crundle! let me know how it goes! The hops go well together, the passionfruit aroma is fantastic at the end of boil! Even my daughter who hates anything to do with beer when WOW!


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## RdeVjun (24/9/09)

Chappo said:


> But as more and more brewers move to BIAB as a cheap gateway to AG brewing the technical aspects and procedures are getting better and better. From 1st hand experience I can tell you the quality of the beer does not suffer from the expense of the equipment but more from the brewer and his ability as a brewer any day.


+ 1 Chap Chap, "cheap gateway"- that's what I meant to say!  

And yeah, I saw a reference to the method from the 70s, so it has been around for quite a while, probably much longer than that even. Ref: "Brew Like A Monk", p11 IIRC, referring to another book published in the 70s.

By the sounds though, you'd better make sure Mrs Chap Chap knows you're pinching her pillowcases, otherwise you'll really be in the doghouse! :lol:


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## Katherine (24/9/09)

I love MY BIG POT and RAMBO burner! urn pttt! :lol:


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## chappo1970 (24/9/09)

Katie said:


> Chap Chap
> 
> check this out... there not so much Commerical brewers + micro!
> 
> Kooinda



Cheers Katie! I did mean commercial brewers as in Megaswill CUB and alike etc. Nice to know Trav's little 4 hectalitre is HERMS though must PM him about it.

To be honest I just don't want to see BIABers unintentially split away from the mainstream for no apparent reason that's all. The way I see it BIAB is All Grain Brewing. FULL STOP. I'll stop hijacking this thread now. Someone want to buy me a beer for lunch?

Chap Chap


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## Katherine (24/9/09)

Chappo said:


> Cheers Katie! I did mean commercial brewers as in Megaswill CUB and alike etc. Nice to know Trav's little 4 hectalitre is HERMS though must PM him about it.
> 
> To be honest I just don't want to see BIABers unintentially split away from the mainstream for no apparent reason that's all. The way I see it BIAB is All Grain Brewing. FULL STOP. I'll stop hijacking this thread now. Someone want to buy me a beer for lunch?
> 
> Chap Chap



I kind of thought you were. Pretty impressive set up hey!


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## Nick JD (24/9/09)

I've found another great advantage to small scale (<15L pot) BIAB on the stovetop is you get experienced in AG brewing fast. 

Little 9L brews are the same as a case of beer (24 stubbies) - so I brew case loads, each one is unique and they only last long enough to get me onto the next recipe while the memory of what went righ/wrong is still fresh in my mind. Will they win contests? IMHO, that is the aim of very few homebrewers.

But they probably would because my beer is the bestest ever, in the world.


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## AndrewQLD (24/9/09)

Nick JD said:


> I've found another great advantage to small scale (<15L pot) BIAB on the stovetop is you get experienced in AG brewing fast.
> 
> Little 9L brews are the same as a case of beer (24 stubbies) - so I brew case loads, each one is unique and they only last long enough to get me onto the next recipe while the memory of what went righ/wrong is still fresh in my mind. _Will they win contests? IMHO, that is the aim of very few homebrewers.
> 
> But they probably would because my beer is the bestest ever, in the world._



:lol: Damn straight, if the beer you make is _not_ the bestest ever in the world then your doing something wrong.

Well said Nick.

Andrew


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## PistolPatch (24/9/09)

BjornJ said:


> ... just asking what the concerns are from experienced brewers about BIAB.
> Is the concern that the temperature control is not as good, the grain/water ratio changes the extraction chemistry, or what are the things that make the more experienced brewers with the full kit say the traditional method is better?



Hi there Bjorn,

In reality, you will find few experienced brewers with the full kit say that traditional is better. The over-whelming majority of experienced brewers were very helpful and enthusiastic in the early days of testing out this method. There was a lot of help from them both on and off forum. Intelligent questions were asked and explored. Some that you and others mentioned are...

1. Temperature Control - This is actually easier than say batch-sparging in an esky as you have an easy heat source to apply.
2. Grain/Water Ratio - A read here under Mash Thickness will tell you this seems to be a bit of a myth. And, as an example of experienced brewers helping out, AndrewQLD tried a full-volume mash in his esky before I even tried a BIAB one.
3. Longevity - I have 2 beers in my kegs now that are 12 months old and 18 months old. One lager and one ale. The lager has had a mild infection fault from the beginning but still managed a bronze medal a few months ago. (Didn't enter the 18 month one as the only reason for entering even one beer was to get free tickets to the exhibitor's tasting ) I also transported a lager from the Gold Coast to Perth over 10 weeks in horrific temperatures a few years back. Unbelievably, it was great :blink: though the ale I transported with it nearly killed me as the keg had become de-pressurised.
4. Low Alcohol and Light Coloured Brews - Once again, plenty of brews done here with no problems at all.
5. Efficiency - Several BIAB brewers have measured their efficiency figures and sent them to me. Average efficiency into the kettle is 82% which is very good.

I think the above were the only concerns and all have been explored.

Any negativity you have heard about BIAB comes from just a few people who I think enjoy an argument which makes a lot of noise/posts. This is annoying because you'll find, on the smallest examination, that their arguments never stood up but have been copied around enough to create a lot of misinformation. For example, Brad from BeerSmith wrote a very good article on BIAB but unfortunately some of the above myths were included in it. Things like this further strengthen the myths created by just a few people. (Brad is aware of this but it will take time for him to re-write the article.)

As for winning competitions, I think the real skill here lies in recipe formulation not the brewing rig. Some brewers develop this skill at a speed that blows me away. Randyrob and BribieG are two examples I can think of and LloydieP/Katie have it as well I suspect. Others take years to develop the skill.

If you don't have this innate knack for recipe formulation then I reckon the best thing you can do is try other brewer's beers and when you find one you love, grab the recipe. That's what I do 

I still only have found 3 beers that I love to brew again and again. These recipes were not found from award-winning beers but from beers I drank from other brewers and one from a recipe provided on AHB.

The beers _you_ love are quite likely not to be competition winners so if you find one from another brewer, make sure you grab it. And, if you think it is great but it fails in a competition, it is nothing to worry about. It could well be that if the judges didn't have to taste your beer along with a heap of others, their palate may well have found it truly delicious.

So Bjorn, brew on with confidence!
Pat


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## BjornJ (25/9/09)

Thanks for the replies.

So it sounds like there are some brewers using more traditional methods that have raised concerns and these have been inspected and found not valid.
Guessing it also has to do with volume? If you have a large setup it is probably easier to do a massive 100 litre brew than mucking around with a pot or urn.

thanks
Bjorn


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## Katherine (2/10/09)

Lates Brewery did quite well at the WASABC. Came second in the American Pale Ale section behind a high scoring beer by Asher!


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## Cocko (2/10/09)

Katie said:


> Lates Brewery did quite well at the WASABC. Came second in the American Pale Ale section behind a high scoring beer by Asher!




Well Done Katie, awesome! :beerbang: 

Was that the KT hopburst?

Grats!


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## Katherine (2/10/09)

Cocko said:


> Well Done Katie, awesome! :beerbang:
> 
> Was that the KT hopburst?
> 
> Grats!



Certainly was! The three other beers we entered did quite well also no places but happy!


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## chappo1970 (2/10/09)

Did you use a silk pillow case? h34r:


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## Cocko (2/10/09)

Katie said:


> Certainly was! The three other beers we entered did quite well also no places but happy!



Well... On the 'To do' list it goes....


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## Katherine (2/10/09)

Chappo said:


> Did you use a silk pillow case? h34r:



Silver plated and all!


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## RobB (2/10/09)

Katie said:


> Lates Brewery did quite well at the WASABC. Came second in the American Pale Ale section behind a high scoring beer by Asher!



Oh look, the Sandgroper case swap is coming up. Hint, hint.......


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## Katherine (2/10/09)

Malty Cultural said:


> Oh look, the Sandgroper case swap is coming up. Hint, hint.......



If Asher does his Ill do mine! Far out I would of love to try that beer!


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## Steve (2/10/09)

Congrats Latie :icon_chickcheers: 
Cheers
Steve


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## brettprevans (2/10/09)

congrats KT & Llyodie


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## raven19 (2/10/09)

Pulled a 3rd with this Porter in my first comp, no chilled, in SABSOSA.

Linky to recipe


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## Bribie G (2/10/09)

Well done KT and Raven, you putting them in the nats?


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## chappo1970 (2/10/09)

It was RIGGED! Look at the major sponsor?








h34r: :lol:


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## Guest Lurker (2/10/09)

Katie said:


> If Asher does his Ill do mine! Far out I would of love to try that beer!



Apparently there was an insane dollar value of hops in his, think it might have been a one off.


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## raven19 (2/10/09)

BribieG said:


> Well done KT and Raven, you putting them in the nats?



Yes, am keen to hear the feeback on it for sure.

I was totally suprised by the 3rd place! First comp for me, only second AG batch too iirc.


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## chappo1970 (2/10/09)

Congrats Ravs! Onya mate! :icon_chickcheers: Was that the recipe you posted earlier?


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## Cocko (2/10/09)

Grats Rav!! 

Good work mate... :beerbang:


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## raven19 (2/10/09)

Yes same recipe indeed.

Linky to poll on the recipe from a while ago. Pretty much the same as Barry's Robust Porter.


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## reviled (3/10/09)

Congrats to Raven and katie/lloyd :beerbang:


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## Peter Wadey (3/10/09)

raven19 said:


> Yes same recipe indeed.
> 
> Linky to poll on the recipe from a while ago. Pretty much the same as Barry's Robust Porter.



Barry's recipe is a proven competition performer.
I have had the original many, many times.
The amount of chocolate malt makes it a VERY robust porter.

Peter


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