# Cider This Weekend



## Airgead (29/4/10)

Folks

I have me a date with 45kg of loverly apples this weekend. Picked up some marked, misshapen and slightly hail damaged (ie: supermarkets won't take them but fruit is still perfect to eat) from Bilpin for $1/kg. 60% Crips Pinks and 40% Granmny Smith. No crab apples this year thanks to the f$&#*n cockatoos.

I don't know how my poor little juicer will survive.

I am on the verge of cutting a deal with the orchard for about 1-200kg of fruit next year. Gravensteins, grannys, crips and bramleys....I'll definitely have to upgrade my juicing setup if that comes through.

If anyone is interested, a lot of the orchards in Bilpin may have excess juicing fruit next year as the Bilpin juicing plant has shut down. Since the markets will only take the perfect stuff they are just letting the juicing fruit rot. Bilpin apple juice will continue to exist as a brand but will be made in Penrith using apples from any old where.

If anyone want to do cider this year the orchard I go to still had plenty of fruit and if you pick the marked and damaged ones and tell the guy its for cider he'll do them cheap for you. http://www.bilpinspringsorchard.com.au/

Cheers
Dave


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## Fents (29/4/10)

Air have you got a proper press? if so can you post some pics etc of your day?


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## Airgead (29/4/10)

Fents said:


> Air have you got a proper press? if so can you post some pics etc of your day?



If by "proper press" you mean "little bench juicer that will be emitting smoke by the time I'm done" then yes I do...

No. I have one of these - 







Its a very good juicer but not really set up to do large quantities. Its really designed for hippies and health freaks who want to cold press fresh juice by the glass. I've put 10kg through it before and it handled it OK. 45 might be a stretch though.

Proper press next year I think.

I'll post photos anyway.

Cheers
Dave


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## brendo (29/4/10)

For those interested in Cider, Kellybrook Winery in the Yarra Valley (Vic) are holding their annual Cider festival this weekend.

More details kellybrook winery cider festival

I believe you can buy fresh pressed apple juice on the day to take home and make cider with - which is something I am planning on doing.

No affiliation, yadda yadda yadda...


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## HoppingMad (29/4/10)

Having done a cider with a mate's 'Breville Juice Fountain' last year I confirm it can be done. And smoke from the machine you will have. At least we did juicing enough for 20 litres of juice. It took some time too, about an hour and a half with one of us coring/cutting the apples and the other putting them through.

The main issue is not the smoke (that clears - and the juicer will survive!  ) The issue is all the frothy sludge that you get as a by-product when using a juicer that gets deposited in a side recepticle. You get a lot of this stuff when you do a high volume of apples. Stupidly we put our 'apple froth' down an outside drain and it clogged it up. (A very dumb idea in hindsight which required a plunger and plenty of water to rectify) Make sure you're juicing close to the yard so you can toss this stuff on the garden instead of being as dumb as us or have a suitable container to pour out this gunk. Otherwise your juicing project may get messy.

May the juice be with you,

Hopper.

Edit - Speeling


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## unrealeous (29/4/10)

Really good thread on cider I was reading this morning - after reading this you'll want to put a batch down...

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...=28760&st=0


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## Fents (29/4/10)

brendo said:


> For those interested in Cider, Kellybrook Winery in the Yarra Valley (Vic) are holding their annual Cider festival this weekend.
> 
> More details kellybrook winery cider festival
> 
> ...



yea totally desrves its own thread imo.

went last year and it was wicked fun. got married there too. can confirm fresh apple juice can be brought and fermented, bring your own container. pretty expeno tho at about $3 a litre, dosnt deter me tho.


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## Stuster (29/4/10)

HoppingMad said:


> The issue is all the frothy sludge that you get as a by-product when using a juicer that gets deposited in a side recepticle.



I've done this a number of times with a Breville juicer and the sludge can be a real pain. This year I put the juice in a fermenter and then racked out from under the sludge at the end which worked out a lot easier than trying to scoop it off.

Thanks for the tip, Airgead. Might need to convince SWMBo that we should head up that way for more apples this weekend. :icon_cheers:


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## brendo (29/4/10)

Fents said:


> yea totally desrves its own thread imo.
> 
> went last year and it was wicked fun. got married there too. can confirm fresh apple juice can be brought and fermented, bring your own container. pretty expeno tho at about $3 a litre, dosnt deter me tho.



good point that...


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## drsmurto (29/4/10)

I leave the sludge in after juicing and add potassium metabisulphite.

24-48 hours later the sludge has formed a nice dry crust (the chapeau brun?) on the top and i rack off almost clear juice underneath it. 

Not quite true breton cider as i then add WY4766 (cider).


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## Stuster (29/4/10)

Ah, I'm sulphite free with my ciders. Never seems to have been a problem for me. Guess it rules out variability in batches. I also used that Wyeast last time after always just using fairly neutral ale yeasts before. Too soon to tell but it's certainly starting to taste good to me. :icon_drunk:


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## Airgead (29/4/10)

I'm sulphite free as well and I don't get much foam. My juicer produces a dry pulp that goes straight into the compost and the juice has very little foamy crap. 

I did a test pressing of 2 kg of granny smiths the other night and I got just enough foam on top to form the brown cap so I could keeve the juice if I wanted. I'll just ferment it straight this year though. Next year if I get a bug bunch of apples I'll keeve some and see how it goes.

Cheers
Dave


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## Stuster (29/4/10)

And keeving is? :unsure: 

Reply in a PM if it's not PG. :lol:


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## stuart13 (29/4/10)

Coring and cutting? You need the Apple Slinky


HoppingMad said:


> Having done a cider with a mate's 'Breville Juice Fountain' last year I confirm it can be done. And smoke from the machine you will have. At least we did juicing enough for 20 litres of juice. It took some time too, about an hour and a half with one of us coring/cutting the apples and the other putting them through.
> 
> The main issue is not the smoke (that clears - and the juicer will survive!  ) The issue is all the frothy sludge that you get as a by-product when using a juicer that gets deposited in a side recepticle. You get a lot of this stuff when you do a high volume of apples. Stupidly we put our 'apple froth' down an outside drain and it clogged it up. (A very dumb idea in hindsight which required a plunger and plenty of water to rectify) Make sure you're juicing close to the yard so you can toss this stuff on the garden instead of being as dumb as us or have a suitable container to pour out this gunk. Otherwise your juicing project may get messy.
> 
> ...


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## zoidbergmerc (29/4/10)

stuart13 said:


> Coring and cutting? You need the Apple Slinky




Those things rock! I used to make apple crumble with the abundance of apples that grow in the back yard and this tool helped A LOT. It peels the apple too if you want.


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## Airgead (29/4/10)

Stuster said:


> And keeving is? :unsure:
> 
> Reply in a PM if it's not PG. :lol:



You leave the juice to sit for a few days underneath the cap of foam (which goes brown - hence the name brown cap). After a day or 2 it drops clear and darkens in colour a little due to oxidiastion. Its traditional in bretton cider making. it apparently reduces the nutrients available to the yeast and ends up with a naturally sweet style cider. 

I've been meaning to try it for ages but have never managed to get enough apples together to do a second batch.

Cheers
Dave


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## Airgead (29/4/10)

stuart13 said:


> Coring and cutting? You need the Apple Slinky



Coring is for pussies. I push them through core and all. The seeds and cores add a little extra tannin.

Cheers
Dave


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## Stuster (29/4/10)

Airgead said:


> Coring is for pussies. I push them through core and all. The seeds and cores add a little extra tannin.
> 
> Cheers
> Dave



:super:


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## Airgead (1/5/10)

Egad.

Started at 1... still 1 bag of apples to go (7kg).

I have so much juice I'll fill the 25l fermenter plus an extra 10l jerry can I had lying around.

I should have enough for the full keg of cider plus enough cider base for a huge batch of apple and honey liqueur.

Photos to follow soon.

Cheers
Dave


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## Airgead (1/5/10)

Ok folks

All done. Cider is hard work.

45 kg of apples ready for washing




Washing (with helper number 1)






The juicing setup (with helper number 2)






Cutting. That apple cutter is fantastic. Saw it last Thursday at the shops and grabbed it. $10 well spent.




Juicing








Pulp




8 hours later...The juicer survived! Bit of a cleanup required though.




End result - about 30-35l of juice. One full 25l fermenter and a full 10l. There will be a lot of pulp settle so I'll probably end up with about 25l at the end. Pitched a big starter of 4766. My 25l fermenter split while I was carrying it to the garage to put it in the fermentation fridge and I thought I was going to lose the lot. Fortunatly the split is *just* above the liquid level so I should be OK. Juice is spot on 1.050.

I'm glad I only do this once a year. Next year I think I'll try to hire a proper wine press. It has to be easier.

Cheers
Dave


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## manticle (1/5/10)

Airgead said:


> I'm glad I only do this once a year. Next year I think I'll try to hire a proper wine press. It has to be easier.
> 
> Cheers
> Dave



What do you mean glad _you_ only do it once a year? I only have the cats to help me.

Looking good - interested to hear how it goes, especially as you say you are sulphite free. Do you chuk your yeast straight in or leave the brew to form a crust for clarification first?

Hoping to get a full fresh apple cider down sometime in the next couple of weeks - cheap apples up the road (all between $1.50 and $2 per kg which compares favourably to the local safeway which is closer to $4/5 per kg)

What temp do you ferment your ciders at and do you add any lactose or just go for dry?


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## Airgead (1/5/10)

manticle said:


> What do you mean glad _you_ only do it once a year? I only have the cats to help me.
> 
> Looking good - interested to hear how it goes, especially as you say you are sulphite free. Do you chuk your yeast straight in or leave the brew to form a crust for clarification first?
> 
> ...



My helpers were very willing but not very helpful. every 5 minutes it was "dad... I need help with this" and I'd have to shut off the juicer and help whichever one do whatever it was. helper number 2 managed to slice his palm open cutting bruised patches out of the apples (after I'd told him not to). I think the cat would have been more useful.

I pitched the yeast straight it. That's what I did last year and it worked well. I'll do a double batch next year and let one clarify to see what the difference in the final product is.

The cider will end up dry. the missus prefers it like that and I can't use lactose anyway as she is lactose intolerant (lactose intolerant and allergic to the sulphates which makes my life very difficult).

Fermenting at 16 which is a bit cooler than last year. I'm hoping it will leave a little more residual sweetness than last year. It was bone dry last year and I had to back sweeten with honey. Lovely but meant I couldn't bottle any and take it anywhere where I couldn't keep it refrigerated.

Cheers
Dave


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## rendo (1/5/10)

HI Guys

I have a breville juice fountain here, and I dont use it all that often anymore. However, making a cider from pure apple juice is something I never thought of. I often get box(es) of apples and I could quite easily get a half sized brew underway in no time.

I will have to put this on the "to do" list. What a great idea. Might chuck in some lactose for a tiny bit of sweetness. Anyway, I guess I have some reading to do on cider. 

I am pretty certain I could get this done in the next few weeks. How long do you leave it in the bottle to condition?

Also, you mentioned you use 4766 yeast? Any quick tips as to why? I will read up on 4766. Would US-05 be any good?

Lots to search and read I guess.

Rendo





manticle said:


> What do you mean glad _you_ only do it once a year? I only have the cats to help me.
> 
> Looking good - interested to hear how it goes, especially as you say you are sulphite free. Do you chuk your yeast straight in or leave the brew to form a crust for clarification first?
> 
> ...


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## Tyred (1/5/10)

4766 yeast is a cider yeast. 

I've made all juice ciders and found S05 stripped to much out of it. S04 appeared to do a better job in leaving some flavour and aroma in there.


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## manticle (2/5/10)

rendo said:


> HI Guys
> 
> I have a breville juice fountain here, and I dont use it all that often anymore. However, making a cider from pure apple juice is something I never thought of. I often get box(es) of apples and I could quite easily get a half sized brew underway in no time.
> 
> ...



Rendo - check out the simple cider and simplest cider threads in the non-beer brewing sub forum. Loads of info about the different methods and yeasts people use. I use white wine yeast but this does make a very dry cider which I balance a bit with lactose (still dry but not quite so bone dry). It depends on preference. The wine yeast does tend to make it a bit 'winey' - for the next one I'm aiming to use wyeast's sweet mead yeast then later compare that with the 4766.


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## adz2332 (3/5/10)

hey bud, sorry didnt relise cider was in here.......

You said Wyeast 4766 yeast but u also said depends what final product your after.
What changes do different yeast make at the final result??


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## adz2332 (3/5/10)

oh and i have some yeast nutrient left over thats just chucked in when pitching the yeast? or do u stir it through before hand???


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## Airgead (3/5/10)

adz2332 said:


> hey bud, sorry didnt relise cider was in here.......
> 
> You said Wyeast 4766 yeast but u also said depends what final product your after.
> What changes do different yeast make at the final result??



OK.. that's a hard one and probably deserves a thread all on its own.

Pretty much any yeast will ferment a cider out dry. Even a yeast with a low attenuation will still finish dry in a cider as the yeast attenuation is a measure of how well it will ferment complex sugars. Any yeast will eat right through the simple sugars in apple juice regardless of its stated attenuation. The exception would be something like a sweet cider yeast which essentially has a very low alcohol tolerance and will poison its self before it finishes fermenting. I find them a bit hit and miss though. 

Mostly, different yeasts will enhance or decrease the fruit flavours and may add some esters and other flavours of their own. Making things even more difficult, different apples have different flavours/aromas that will be enhanced/decreased differently by different yeasts. 

I tend to use 4766 as it leaves a lot of good fruit flavour and doesn't strip anything out. It also doesn't seem to add much flavour so you end up with something that tastes like apples. I don't want any beery esters as this is for the missus and she doesn't like that. I press my own juice though so I can ensure I have good flavoured juice. Some shop bought juice is pretty bland - very little acid, not much character. In juices like this the 4766 can leave the cider a bit thin and tasteless. A juice like that might benefit from an ale yeast (S04/S05 seem to be popular) as that will add some esters and give you more flavour. The esters might clash with the apple flavour though so you don't want too many. A belgian yeast probably wouldn't work so well. Even some of the English ale yeasts might be a bit too estery. If you have a very perfumy apple and want to preserve that, you need something that doesn't ferment too quickly. I have heard of lager yeasts being used successfully for that.

For me though, because I can control my juice I find the 4766 gives a good result. I don't tend to use nutrient and I ferment a bit colder than recommended. The reason for this is that I want a dry cider but not bone dry so I want the yeast to finish a little earlier than they otherwise would. By starving them of nutrients (actually apple juice has quite a bit of yeast nutrient naturally so its not really starvation.. its more like a mild diet) and stressing them with cold I am trying to get a slightly premature end to fermentation. Its a fine line though. Its really easy to end up with a stuck fermentation and something really sweet or for the yeast to just finish dry anyway.

You can also play tricks like keeving (letting the juice sit for a few days underneath a cap of foam) which reduces the amount of nutrient available and gives you a sweeter cider. That's next year's experiment.

Welcome to the wonderful world of cider.

Cheers
Dave


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## adz2332 (3/5/10)

damn so complex lol... what temp is ok to pitch the 4766 at?? between what and what roughly?


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## Airgead (3/5/10)

adz2332 said:


> damn so complex lol... what temp is ok to pitch the 4766 at?? between what and what roughly?



Yep. Complex.

Wyeast recommend 15-24C as the temp range on 4766 with 18-20 being the usual range. I like to ferment ciders as cold as I can go though. I found though that 15 is a little too cool if your temp control isn't spot on. If your fridge swings by a degree or so then it will drop to 14 and it will stop and you end up stuck. I'm currently running mine at 16 which allowing for my fridge swing of around 1C each way gives me a range of 15-17 which is enough to slow it down but not enough to accidentally stop it dead.

Cheers
Dave


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## adz2332 (3/5/10)

awsome thanks mate. i think at the moment with adel being cool i should be able to get it to sit at around 18. so i will try the 4766!

thanks mate


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## manticle (3/5/10)

Airgead said:


> You can also play tricks like keeving (letting the juice sit for a few days underneath a cap of foam) which reduces the amount of nutrient available and gives you a sweeter cider. That's next year's experiment.
> 
> 
> Cheers
> Dave




I let my cider sit until a crust forms, then rack it. I do this to clarify it. As far as I understand Keeving also involves the additions of some enzymes and other jimminyjamminies while performing this clarification step.

Have you used the sweet mead yeast? Tossing up between that and 4766 for my next. Basically I don't mind dry and the lactose is enough to pull it back just that tiny touch but I want as much apple flavour in there as I can.


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## Airgead (4/5/10)

manticle said:


> I let my cider sit until a crust forms, then rack it. I do this to clarify it. As far as I understand Keeving also involves the additions of some enzymes and other jimminyjamminies while performing this clarification step.
> 
> Have you used the sweet mead yeast? Tossing up between that and 4766 for my next. Basically I don't mind dry and the lactose is enough to pull it back just that tiny touch but I want as much apple flavour in there as I can.



I stick with the 4766 as the missus prefers a dry cider. You could try splitting a batch...I have 4766 on slants if you want some that way you only have to buy the sweet.

Not sure about keeving and enzymes. I haven't done my research yet as I haven't ever had a spare batch of juice to play with. 

Cheers
Dave


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## manticle (4/5/10)

Slant sounds great. Let me know.


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## adz2332 (4/5/10)

Slant ?? whats that sorry :S

also i went to the supermarket and i cant find straight apple juice perservative free. Is it such a big deal that it NEEDS to be perservative free??


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## drsmurto (4/5/10)

adz2332 said:


> Slant ?? whats that sorry :S
> 
> also i went to the supermarket and i cant find straight apple juice perservative free. Is it such a big deal that it NEEDS to be perservative free??



Berri is preservative free.


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## manticle (4/5/10)

adz2332 said:


> Slant ?? whats that sorry :S
> 
> also i went to the supermarket and i cant find straight apple juice perservative free. Is it such a big deal that it NEEDS to be perservative free??




Small amount of yeast that can be grown into a larger amount.

Preservatives can interfere with yeast health.


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## Airgead (4/5/10)

adz2332 said:


> Slant ?? whats that sorry :S



One of these -






Good for storing yeast long term. You streak a tiny amount of yeast onto the agar. You then grow it up into a pitchable quantity before using it. Great but you need to be ultra careful with keeping slants sterile (sterile not sanitised...)

Cheers
Dave


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## adz2332 (4/5/10)

Excellent thanks guys.

ill look for berri juice tonight.
and also 4766 and lactose and give it a crack!


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## rupal (9/5/10)

What about sanitisation ? Do you boil the juice or anything ?
Reason i'm asking is i just had the idea the other day to buy some good cheap apples & make a cider.
& just came across this thread now. I have the exact same Juicer as Airgead.


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## Stuster (9/5/10)

Definitely don't boil the juice. There are different approaches - you can either just ferment it, or you can add some sulphites to kill off any wild yeasts, wait a couple of days and then add the yeast you want to use. I've just fermented it though I've always added a yeast, mainly just a clean ale yeast. There is plenty of wild yeast on the apple skin though and that will ferment it with nothing else added but I've always been too chicken to go that route.


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## manticle (9/5/10)

Don't boil the juice unless you want stewed apple cider.

You can pasteurise (bring juice to 75 degrress for a few minutes) but my experience and reading suggests it's unnecessary for hard cider. The alcoholic environment combined with low pH makes it difficult for the wrong microbes to grow.

You can also use campden (sulphites) but again my experience suggests it's unnecessary and I don't like the eefect they have on me or on the flavour.

My take? - make a starter with your yeast so that fermentation starts quickly and trust in the cider gods.


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