# Cider help?



## melb_student_brewer (23/6/13)

Hi all. 
So I'm new to cider brewing, and have put together a basic cider. I used 22 litres of Audi apple juice (it was on special) and a kilo and a half of honey melted in about a lite of hot water. I used the Wyeast cider yeast, 4766. OG was 1.060

So now the problem: after 4 or 5 days I've taken another hydro reading and the gravity hasn't moved. Which made me think something had gone wrong with the yeast. Except there's carbonation occurring. When I poured the cider into the hydro it frothed right up and is bubbling. I'm fermenting in a 30l plastic fermenter, and can't figure out why there's carbonation occurring. 

Any help? What should I do?


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## JDW81 (23/6/13)

Mate I pitched the yeast on a cider over a month ago and it is still in the fermenter. Cider needs time IMO, and given that we are in the depths of winter, things are going to take a bit longer (assuming you don't have temp control).

Your gravity may have changed, but you potentially took your readings at different temps, which is going to throw out your reading. If your first reading was taken warm, you would have gotten a reading under what the actual gravity would have been, if you took the second one at a cooler temp, then your gravity will read higher. That might account for the lack of movement.

As far as help goes. Don't panic, and leave it for another week at least. If your sanitisation was good, the yeast was healthy and pitched at an appropriate temp then it will sit happily in the fermenter for months.

JD


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## melb_student_brewer (23/6/13)

Cheers mate.

Any ideas on the carbonation?


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## Bribie G (23/6/13)

Is that Audi Juice anything like Mercedes Juice?


Actually I use the Aldi as well and a sort of all purpose wine/cider dry yeast I got from ESB and it ferments right out to dryness in just over a week, at ambient 16-18 in the garage. I try to catch it early so I can keg with a bit of residual sweetness but it seems to beat me to the punch every time.

Have you tried just swirling the fermenter around to rouse the yeast?


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## JDW81 (23/6/13)

CO2 is a product of fermentation, and has a certain solubility in water. If you agitate it, it comes out of solution.

It would just be the CO2 that has been released by the yeast as they chew through the sugars. Most of it ends up in the air, but some stays in the liquid (more so if it is cold) and is released when you pour it. This is the same mechanism that helps beer form a head (coupled with proteins).


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## pk.sax (23/6/13)

I was gonna say something about that Audi cider not being as fast as my Ferrari cider but friggin pommie beat me to it.


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## Bribie G (23/6/13)

If you can get a sample gently out of the tap without exposing the brew to the atmosphere, have a taste every day to see if it's "drying out" and getting less sweet. Don't worry about a bit of yeast, good source of B vitamins.

What temperature are you running it at? sometimes when you pitch a Wyeast it can take a couple of days or even more to wake up, multiply then get on with the job of fermenting. Dry yeast is usually a bit quicker. So it could be now up and running. For your next batch, just try pouring fresh juice straight onto the yeast "cake" left - ensuring that it doesn't get exposed to infection by leaving the FV sitting around lidless for example, and it should take off quickly next time.


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## HalfWit (24/6/13)

Hi, I am about to do my 1st cider as well and have a few questions. Does the juice need aeration prior to pitching the yeast? And I am looking at getting some Cider yeast. If I make a 2 liter starter in some juice will that be okay to pitch to a triple batch or would I need to build it up more? Thanks.


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## Bribie G (24/6/13)

Using yeast for the first time out of the packet I usually do up a starter in a litre of apple juice in the apple juice bottle, seeing as it's sterile anyway.
I would guess that rule-of-thumb if you are using a dry cider yeast around 10 grams, if you let the starter rip for about 3 days I think it probably would be enough for a triple-keg sized batch, but would be inclined to use two packs and culture those up for a while.

Juice glugged and poured into the FV out of the supermarket bottles is usually aerated enough but a stir with a slotted spoon (especially if adding extra sugar or dex) always helps.


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## ArcadeChalky (24/6/13)

Bribie G said:


> What temperature are you running it at? sometimes when you pitch a Wyeast it can take a couple of days or even more to wake up, multiply then get on with the job of fermenting. Dry yeast is usually a bit quicker.


+1. Under normal fermenting conditions, I would have thought the batch would be nearly done. If your brewing cooler, that time would be drawn out a bit.

What kind of Honey did you put in? I've never used it, but I've read that certain types can actually inhibit the yeast greatly.


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## carpedaym (24/6/13)

Another gotcha with the hydrometer is that CO2 bubbles cling to it and make it float up higher than it otherwise would. It could be worth taking another reading and give the hydrometer a little twirl in the tube, as this helps shake the bubbles off it. I sometimes have to wait a few minutes, spinning intermittently to get all the bubbles off to get an accurate reading.

In beer wort there's more nutrients to keep the yeast happy and healthy, but there isn't nearly as many in juice. This could be another reason it's a little slow. I brewed some Cider a few months ago (with US-05 yeast) and it took about 4 weeks with some occasional swirling to kick the yeast back into action. Not ideal but they got there and after some conditioning time it was beautiful.

Here's a handy calculator for adjusting hydro reading temperatures, which others have already discussed: www.brewersfriend.com/hydrometer-temp/


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## HalfWit (4/7/13)

Hi, I'm about to put down my 1st cider as well. I want a semi sweet cider. If I bottle when my gravity reaches 1.008 and that put in the dishwasher after it carbs up, will this give me a semi sweet cider?


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## nathan_madness (4/7/13)

Don't use plastic bottles in the dishwasher as they will melt!

Have a look at http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/easy-stove-top-pasteurizing-pics-193295/

I'm sure you will see some answers there.


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## carpedaym (4/7/13)

I was going to post that link too as I used that method with my first Cider. It worked pretty well but I was still scared that they were going to explode on me! 

I only bottled some sweet (I actually backsweetened them rather than bottling them early). I have to say that the completely dry ones didn't seem anywhere near as puckeringly dry as I was expecting. I was anticipating something like a dry white wine, but they weren't like that at all, actually turned out very nice and I won't bother backsweetening and pasteurising next time.

You've probably seen the option of using lactose to sweeten? Aside from that option, if you use about 33% pear juice to 66% apple juice it gives a nice sweet tang, even dry.


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## pk.sax (5/7/13)

It will only taste mouth puckering dry like a wine if you fortify the juice up to wine sugar levels. Leave it at juice strength, ~1040. Even dry, it is not mouth puckering.


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## carpedaym (5/7/13)

I also recently heard that when winemakers talk about "dryness" it also includes things like tannins and acidity levels and all that jazz. In fact we had a wine the other week and I was curious as to its fg since it was exactly where I like my wine sweetness. To my surprise my hydrometer showed about 0.997. Any way, I am now officially off topic...


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## Greg.L (5/7/13)

You can also get sweetness from some fruity esters. Some yeasts will produce more esters, but mainly you need riper fruit for fruity esters. You will have trouble getting many esters from cheap juice, partly because they are lost in the concentrating. I think they try to collect and return esters but i don't think it will be the same. Australian wines are very fruity because the grapes ripen so well. Apples also benefit from more ripening.
Winemakers don't use dryness very much as a descriptor, nor tartness. They are pretty vague terms. Astringency and acidity are better.


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## binoose (7/7/13)

Dude if there is carbonation , it's fermenting and all is OK. No need to do a gravity test during fermentation as the co2 bubbles will produce false readings anyway.


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## HalfWit (10/7/13)

Well after trying a few more ciders of late, the one that really stands out is Magners. Any ideas how I can get close to the sweetness of it.


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## JDW81 (10/7/13)

Short answer, buy it from the shop.

It is very difficult to replicate commercial sweet cider at a home brew level. You can successfully make traditional style still or sparkling cider, but it is a far cry from that sweet stuff you buy at the bottle shop.

Lactose is a non-fermentable and can be used to leave some residual sweetness, but you have to be careful as it is easy to over do it and be left with some nasty tasting cider. Personally I think it leaves an aftertaste that isn't quite right (even if the level of sweetness is good).

Most people either sweeten in the keg with juice, carbonate and then chill to serving temps which puts the yeast to sleep, or sweeten in the glass with dash of fresh juice. This works really well, you can adjust the level of sweetness to taste and is easy as. 

Some people have had success with pasteurising their bottles at the desired level of sweetness, or alternatively you could filter out the yeast, but you'd need to be kegging for this to work. 

JD.


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## pk.sax (10/7/13)

What he ^ said.

Btw, magners (or bulmers) also have a dry version, if I remember right. Bloody tasty. Peel a litchi (lychee for you ignorant island bound 2 headed ****), put it in a champagne flute and pour a dry bulmers on top.


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## covemak (15/7/13)

hi guys,
im new to brewing, i mixed a cider store bought in the 30l carboy, with cider yeast, there seems to be no layer of, for want of a better word scum present, even after 6 days. the fermentation is active as the airlock is bubbling away, and its at 24-26 degrees. is this normal with cider ? the beers ive brewed have all had that layer.


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## Airgead (15/7/13)

Perfectly normal. A lot of ciders and wines don't have a lot o foam on top. They tend to be lower in protein than beers so don't hold a stable foam as well.

The yeasts also tend to be less foamy. Wine /cider yeasts aren't top croppers as a rule.

Cheers
Dave


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## covemak (15/7/13)

beauty, 
thanks for that Dave


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## HalfWit (18/7/13)

Hi everyone. I've had a bit of a misshape. I bottled my cider at 1.008 and was planning to stick the bottles in the dishwasher when they carbed up. When I checked the following day, I had gushers. I opened all 100 plus bottles and poured them back into the fermentor. I'm just wondering what affect this will have on the cider? Is oxidation as bad in cider as it is in beer?


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## Airgead (18/7/13)

Yep. It sure is.

Hopefully the amount of co2 you had gushing out will have protected it somewhat.

Cheers
Dave


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## carpedaym (18/7/13)

Bit late now, but I hear gushing can happen when the CO2 hasn't dissolved into the beer or cider yet. When I was biding my time to pasteurise my cider, I would grab one and leave it in the fridge overnight so the CO2 dissolved in, then checked it the following day. I didn't get any gushers, but as I think I mentioned before, I let it ferment dry then added apple-juice back in.

I'm no expert on this topic so might be incorrect on some details. This video which relates to carbbing is worth watching:


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