# Increasing Mash pH



## Cloud Surfer (26/3/21)

I’ve done a few AG brews now and the mash pH has always been on the low side, but close enough to not adjust anything. I’m probably only a couple of brews away from a RIS, which is going to push the pH down even further, at a time I want it to be higher to suit the style.

So, how do you effectively add baking soda to the mash? I can’t see sprinkling it on top of the mash will work its way through a big grain bill very quick. Perhaps dissolve it in water first.

Am I correct that adding baking soda to the strike water just before dough in doesn’t increase the resulting mash ph, and that the baking soda has to be added to the mash after dough in?

I need to get a water profile calculator going, but in the mean time, is there a formula to work out how much baking soda to use to raise the pH?

Cheers


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## duncbrewer (27/3/21)

I think you have to use a profile calculator. They aren't as bad as they look. I use Brewersfriend free version it seems okay. 
I just add any in mash additions between the mash pipe and the kettle wall and then rinse it down using the recirc flow, rather than onto the mash. Then I retest after another 10 minutes.
Not sure if that's the right way just seemed a bit more logical. I think you use a brewzilla 65 so this should be possible.


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## JDW81 (27/3/21)

I’m far from a water chemistry expert, so can’t comment on if using sodium bicarbonate is a good idea, however worth bearing in mind that baking soda/baking powder both contain Na2HCO3 but they’ve often got other ingredients in there as well, which may adversely affect your beer.

JD


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## duncbrewer (27/3/21)

I think baking powder is bicarb and an acid ? tartaric.

Think that baking soda is just bicarb ( according to the side of my packet ).


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## MHB (27/3/21)

Chalk is perhaps a better choice, any that isnt used up in the reaction will precipitate as a solid and not get carried forward in your process.
Bicarbonate (NaHCO3) is fully water soluble so it can be added at any time. It or more often Potassium Bicarbonate can even be used to fine tune finished beer pH, added post fermentation, more often in Cider making than brewing but its surprising how much difference even small changes to the finished pH of a beer can make to its flavour.
Braukaiser has a good little experimental on getting Chalk into solution, worth a read. As is some information on RA (Residual Alkalinity). Too much Sodium will bring a salty note to the flavour profile; Chalk is a Calcium salt so that’s not an issue.

Just a note of caution, if you are going to start making basic additions (Base as apposed to Acid), get a pH meter. A half decent one can be had for under $40. Only add about half of what you think you will need, check the pH, add more as needed.
Mark


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## Naboo (27/3/21)

MHB said:


> Just a note of caution, if you are going to start making basic additions (Base as apposed to Acid), get a pH meter. A half decent one can be had for under $40. Only add about half of what you think you will need, check the pH, add more as needed.
> Mark



Hey MHB, do you have a link or info on a half decent pH meter at that price? I'm keen to look into water a bit further but thought I'd need to spend a bit more. Would love to know if there's something decent at a cheapish price.
Cheers mate.


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## MHB (27/3/21)

The one from Kegland looks like its pretty good value for the price ($36).
I have had a play with one, I would get a spare tip for it, make sure you calibrate it every brew day and in all seriousness don’t expect it to last for more than a year. That applies to most pH meters, or more correctly to the probe part. Especially if you go sticking them into hot wort - that kills them quick.
pH control will really help your brewing.
Mark


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## RRising (27/3/21)

MHB said:


> The one from Kegland looks like its pretty good value for the price ($36).
> I have had a play with one, I would get a spare tip for it, make sure you calibrate it every brew day and in all seriousness don’t expect it to last for more than a year. That applies to most pH meters, or more correctly to the probe part. Especially if you go sticking them into hot wart - that kills them quick.
> pH control will really help your brewing.
> Mark



I bought the KL one, i think its a Beverage Doctor clone (or renamed idk) for the few times i have used it, it has worked well. I keep the buffer solution in a cheap jar, it keeps really well if you keep the tip clean between use and calibration.

I normally take a wort sample in a small cup, chuck it in the freezer for about 30 minutes for it to cool down and test once its at about 20°, it does have automatic temperature compensation but like a refractometer it gets a bit out of whack at higher temps.


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## Naboo (27/3/21)

Cheers Mark. I appreciate the reply 
I will look into one. Thanks.


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## Cloud Surfer (28/3/21)

I believe it’s difficult to dissolve Chalk, hence why so many people use baking soda. Maybe I should get some and see for myself.

The KegLand pH meter is ok, gets the job done. It has to be calibrated every brew day otherwise the readings are quite erroneous.


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## MHB (28/3/21)

Chalk is insoluble well practically and that’s part of the reason for using it, as above read Braukaiser and what Kai has to say on the subject.

Same applies to most every pH meter, even very good ones need calibrating at least daily in a regular lab environment where they are used all the time. Make sure the electrode is stored wet and if you don’t calibrate before use its just a random number generator.
Mark


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## duncbrewer (28/3/21)

Just my tip, put the mug or cup in freezer first. Then take it out and add the wort.. It cool a lot quicker.


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## chrisfromperth (29/3/21)

I'm writing with some ignorance here - you're attempting to hit an exact pH value by adding something alkaline? A couple of thoughts:
(i) how do you know you're far enough away from the "right" pH to make a difference? You'd need a well-calibrated pH meter to know. And any pH between about 5.2 and 5.6 will be fine.
(ii) *I always trust the Beer Gods* to sort out my pH. I do measure it, but don't get fussed if it looks a bit low. If it's a bit high, I worry, because I've done something wrong.
(iii) I _help_ the Beer Gods by making sure that my water is appropriate to the style before I start. For the pale ales I brew that often means increasing calcium levels by adding a smidgeon (a technical term) of calcium chloride. 
(iv) if you insist on adding sodium bicarbonate, as Mark/MHB suggests, don't add it all at once. I'd go further and suggest that you add what you think you need to half a cup of water (dissolve it), then add it a teaspoon at a time, stirring in between. Buffer reactions (you're fighting one) have a habit of doing nothing, doing nothing, doing nothing, almost there, whoops gone too far.


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## Cloud Surfer (29/3/21)

chrisfromperth said:


> I'm writing with some ignorance here - you're attempting to hit an exact pH value by adding something alkaline? A couple of thoughts:
> (i) how do you know you're far enough away from the "right" pH to make a difference? You'd need a well-calibrated pH meter to know. And any pH between about 5.2 and 5.6 will be fine.
> (ii) *I always trust the Beer Gods* to sort out my pH. I do measure it, but don't get fussed if it looks a bit low. If it's a bit high, I worry, because I've done something wrong.
> (iii) I _help_ the Beer Gods by making sure that my water is appropriate to the style before I start. For the pale ales I brew that often means increasing calcium levels by adding a smidgeon (a technical term) of calcium chloride.
> (iv) if you insist on adding sodium bicarbonate, as Mark/MHB suggests, don't add it all at once. I'd go further and suggest that you add what you think you need to half a cup of water (dissolve it), then add it a teaspoon at a time, stirring in between. Buffer reactions (you're fighting one) have a habit of doing nothing, doing nothing, doing nothing, almost there, whoops gone too far.


So far my mash pH has always been around 5.0 to 5.1, so not too far to the low side for the beers I’ve been making. I know the dark malts in a RIS are going to push that even lower. That’s not going to be acceptable for a RIS, as they certainly benefit from a higher pH.

Anyway, I’m now considering just steeping the dark malts for 24 hours in the fridge, and then adding those runnings at the end of the boil. I’ve done it that way a few times when making extract RIS and I do like the process as it smooths out the roast flavours quite nicely. That way the Maris Otter gets mashed at an appropriate pH.


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## chrisfromperth (30/3/21)

_"...now considering just steeping the dark malts for 24 hours in the fridge, and then adding those runnings at the end of the boil."_

Sounds like a way to go. 

But wow - that is a low, low mash pH.


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## MHB (30/3/21)

Unless you are doing something to acidify your mash, there is no way a blond beer would get anywhere near 5.1pH.
No matter how much Calcium you add salt additions won’t get you there either.
With really dark beer you might be getting down to somewhere near that sort of pH but you would need a lot (>20%) dark or roast grain.
Might be worth checking your pH meter or whatever you are using. Believe me I know your local water and something simply isn’t adding up!

Fortunately the effect of pH is much more pronounced on the high side than on the low, too high a pH will harm your enzyme activity much more than being the same distance the other way. The extraction of husk polyphenols is also much greater at higher pH's to so if you have to be a bit outside the optimum being out low is better.
Mark


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## Cloud Surfer (30/3/21)

Yes the pH is surprisingly low. I added 100ppm calcium in the first two brews and got 5.1, and 200ppm calcium in the barley wine and got 5.0. I’m going to do a 2 point calibration of the pH meter at 4.0 and 6.86 next brew instead of just the one at 4.0 and see if that makes any difference.


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## duncbrewer (30/3/21)

What's the pH of the beer?


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## Cloud Surfer (30/3/21)

Good question. It’s something I’ve been meaning to check.


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## cedric (31/3/21)

please tell me if you've done this before or doesn't work in beer..............
i've been experimenting using oyster shells in my rum washes.
i've been doing identical washes with & without oyster shells and logging the PH.
hanging 2 cups of shells in a hop sock and seeing how they buffer the PH.
works really well in rum washes.


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## Coalminer (31/3/21)

Cloud Surfer said:


> Yes the pH is surprisingly low. I added 100ppm calcium in the first two brews and got 5.1, and 200ppm calcium in the barley wine and got 5.0. I’m going to do a 2 point calibration of the pH meter at 4.0 and 6.86 next brew instead of just the one at 4.0 and see if that makes any difference.


I think you should always do a 2 point calibration


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## Cloud Surfer (31/3/21)

Coalminer said:


> I think you should always do a 2 point calibration


I think you’re right, but the KegLand video I saw said you only need do a one point calibration.


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## duncbrewer (31/3/21)

cedric said:


> please tell me if you've done this before or doesn't work in beer..............
> i've been experimenting using oyster shells in my rum washes.
> i've been doing identical washes with & without oyster shells and logging the PH.
> hanging 2 cups of shells in a hop sock and seeing how they buffer the PH.
> works really well in rum washes.



No I haven't, historically Oyster stout was a thing but might have contained oysters or the shell in the clearing process.

Normally for beer once pH is set at the level we want for mashing it's not something we look at for any benefit.


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## MHB (31/3/21)

It depends on your pH meter, lots of the cheap ones are only single point calibration capable, if you do a second point it promptly forgets the first one. That being the case just calibrate with the closest buffer you have.
Better quality meters fix the first point, then adjust the slope of the line between the first and second point. If you want to be technical it’s an application of y=mx+b, the first point sets b and the second adjusts m (gradient).

pH plays a huge role in brewing, not just in mashing and the kettle, perhaps a lot more important than most home brewers realise. Many commercial brewers monitor it as closely as they do SG even during fermentation, it gives you a lot of information on yeast health and even plays a major role on when to dry hop or rack beer.
Most blond beers should finish around 4.1pH give or take a point or two; it can have a big impact on the finished beer. pH also tells a brewer a lot about how well your processes ar working.
If you have a decent pH meter calibrate it at 4pH and do some trials, take three glasses of beer, adjust one up a couple of points, the other down the same and see if it affects the beer, in some beers it makes a startling difference, others not so much. I use Potassium Bicarbonate and Lactic acid respectively and it doesn’t take much so best to make a solution/dilution and add a little, stir gently, remember to stir the blank sample the same amount as the dissolved CO2 will change the taste to.
Mark


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## cedric (31/3/21)

duncbrewer said:


> No I haven't, historically Oyster stout was a thing but might have contained oysters or the shell in the clearing process.
> 
> Normally for beer once pH is set at the level we want for mashing it's not something we look at for any benefit.


not really to do with an oyster stout, more for PH control.
the shells are used in the fermentation stage.
if the PH starts to drop, the acid dissolves the shell and maintains a PH of approx 5.
it's like an automatic PH control.
sometimes the wash will use 1/2 cup, or as little as 1/10 cup, or none, depending on the PH.


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## duncbrewer (31/3/21)

Ingenious idea.


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## kadmium (1/4/21)

Cloud Surfer said:


> I think you’re right, but the KegLand video I saw said you only need do a one point calibration.


I have a KegLand one and its pretty good to be honest. Agree with MHB get a spare tip for it (very cheap) and store in solution. It goes mouldy very quick if you don't clean it well between washes.

I suggest Bru'n Water as a water calculator, it's been spot on for me and now that it's dialed in I hardly check the pH anymore. Probably every 2nd brew just to make sure or if i'm doing something out of the ordinary.

You can try top mashing to reduce the effect of low pH in the mash.

to add chalk to your mash you need to dissolve it in soda water. Then you use the solution to adjust your pH.


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## Sidney Harbour-Bridge (3/4/21)

kadmium said:


> ......to add chalk to your mash you need to dissolve it in soda water. Then you use the solution to adjust your pH.



I used to do this until you and MHB convinced me it is a waste of time and effort


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## kadmium (3/4/21)

Sidney Harbour-Bridge said:


> I used to do this until you and MHB convinced me it is a waste of time and effort


Yeah but you were doing it cart blanch, he's doing it for a very specific reason on a highly dark roasted beer which he wants a higher finishing pH for. 

You were adding this and then adding lactic acid. Different strokes for different folks.


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## MHB (3/4/21)

Ditto
Mark


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