# Using grains to improve a kit



## heshtek (23/5/14)

I've never used grains before and want to steep some to add to a kit. Everything I've read seems to suggest that you do not want to boil the grains and ideally keep them under 80 dregrees when steeping. I realize there are probably lots of other ways to achieve what I'm trying to do but being a beginner I'm looking for a simple way to do it. That said the method I'm proposing to use is as follows;


Steep grain in really hot water for about 30 minutes
Sieve the liquid to remove the grains
Place the liquid on the heat and add fermentables (add more liquid if needed)
Add a small amount of hops and boil them for 5 minutes
Remove from heat then add in the kit to mix it all together
Add the rest of the water, pitch yeast etc etc.
Is it a bad idea to boil the liquid from the steeped grains or is it only a bad idea to boil the grains themself?


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## Trickymac (23/5/14)

hi heshtek, im only a newbie brewer myself but have steeped some grains in an extract brew i did, the instructions i got from my lhbs dude said grains steeped(in a grainbag) for 20 mins in 3L water at 70 deg, then transfer grain bag to another 3 ltrs of water at 70 deg just to get the last few goodies out of the grains, remove the grains/bag and add the 2 lots of 3L of grain steeped water together, then i added my fermentables and did a boil for 60 mins, added some hops at whatever intervals suit the beer and hops and you, cooled it down in an ice bath, tipped into fermentor, added water to 19ltr, added my yeast and i do believe i made beer....a very tasty one
my 2c, im sure there are alot of way more experienced fellas here with some top ideas, good luck tho


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## menoetes (23/5/14)

Boiling the liquid from the grains is not only advisable, it's necessary. Boiling the grain liquid (wort) kills off any microbes and wild yeast that would have lived on the plant itself and would have come with the grain after harvest.

Don't worry about the effect it will have on the wort as once the grain is removed all you have left is the proteins and sugars (and sweet sweet flavor) that you have extracted and these won't be harmed by boiling. 

I generally bring to the roiling boil and let it stay that way for at least ten minutes before adding hops. If you dissolve 500g of malt into the liquid and bring it up about 5 litres (100g of malt per litre as a rule) you should get excellent utility out of your hops in the boil, getting the most flavor/aroma out of them ready for the ferment.

After you've finished your hop boil, you dissolve in the rest of your fermentables (the tin, any other malt or sugar), then into your fermenter with cool water to what-ever volume you like (20 - 23lts generally). Then yeast etc.

What hop and how much of it are you using? What style of beer are you aiming for?


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## CrookedFingers (23/5/14)

Sounds like a good plan. 
Definitely don't boil the grains.
Just the resulting liquid from steeping.

Good luck !

CF

Edit: beaten !


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## Damn (23/5/14)

What your doing is basically a partial mash. Your on the right track. Be anal about your temperature. Try not to heat water over 70c. as when you add the grain you ideally want it to drop to around 67c for steeping (mashing) grains. From what I've read you get different sugars mashing at different temps but you will get chit results if its too high or too low.
Once you've steeped (mashed) the grains you remove the grain then do your boil.
Have a look in the Partial Mash Brewing forum. 2nd Pinned thread.
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/72607-pimping-a-coopers-kit-with-a-partial-mash/
This is a great small step towards all grain brewing. Good luck, you won't look back.


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## heshtek (23/5/14)

menoetes said:


> Boiling the liquid from the grains is not only advisable, it's necessary. Boiling the grain liquid (wort) kills off any microbes and wild yeast that would have lived on the plant itself and would have come with the grain after harvest.
> 
> Don't worry about the effect it will have on the wort as once the grain is removed all you have left is the proteins and sugars (and sweet sweet flavor) that you have extracted and these won't be harmed by boiling.
> 
> ...


I'm trying to make a floral pale ale something like little creatures or fat yak. The plan is to use a pale ale kit and grains (not sure what type would suit this beer) boil maybe 20g of Amarillo for a few minutes. Later dry hop with more Amarillo (maybe 30g) and some Nelson Sauvin hops (maybe 10g). I hope that's not too many hops. I've never done anything with hops to this point so a bit of guesswork is involved here.


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## manticle (23/5/14)

> What your doing is basically a partial mash. Your on the right track. Be anal about your temperature. Try not to heat water over 70c. as when you add the grain you ideally want it to drop to around 67c for steeping (mashing) grains. From what I've read you get different sugars mashing at different temps but you will get chit results if its too high or too low.
> Once you've steeped (mashed) the grains you remove the grain then do your boil.
> Have a look in the Partial Mash Brewing forum. 2nd Pinned thread.
> http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/72607-pimping-a-coopers-kit-with-a-partial-mash/
> This is a great small step towards all grain brewing. Good luck, you won't look back.


It's only a partial mash if using base malt to get a portion of the fermentable sugars.

OP - your process is fine although I'd default to a 10 minute boil.


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## mosto (23/5/14)

Your process outlined in your OP looks pretty spot on. As others have said, DON'T boil the grains but DO boil the liquid. You want to boil it for at least 20 min to kill any nasties that may be in there. I'd chuck your 20g of Amarillo in half way through the boil so they get 10 min boil time, this will draw out their flavour.

As for the kit, I'd suggest Coopers Canadian Blonde. I always found it a great kit to add hops and grains to.

Also, with grain, remember you'll need a specialty grain that doesn't require mashing, and if you don't have a mill, ask your supplier to mill it for you. I was always a fan of adding Carapils in my kits and bits days and think it would suit the type of beer your brewing. Adds a little flavour and helps head retention but doesn't add much colour.

Edit: Just saw manticles post re: the 10 min boil. I was under the impression a minimum of 20 min was required to ensure any bacteria was killed off, but happy to bow to the wisdom of a poster I've learnt a great deal off in my time here.


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## Damn (23/5/14)

manticle said:


> It's only a partial mash if using base malt to get a portion of the fermentable sugars.
> 
> OP - your process is fine although I'd default to a 10 minute boil.


Thanks Manticle, 

Stand corrected. didn't realise there was a difference. quote "Steeping, on the other hand, is a method used to extract colors and flavors from certain types of specialty grains." 
"Most agree that grain-steeping temperatures should be kept below about 170 °F (~77 °C) to avoid the extraction of astringent tannins from the malt husk."

I did this recipe 18months ago with a good results using a Coopers Pale Ale extract & US-05 yeast.


100g Pale Crystal (specialty grain for steeping)

12.5g Nelson Sauvin 20 minutes (boil for)
12.5g Nelson Sauvin 5 minutes (boil for)
12.5g Cascade 0 minutes (at end of boil for Aroma)
12.5g Cascade Dry hop for 4 days (ie 4 days before bottling for Aroma)


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## menoetes (23/5/14)

+1 the Carapils, a respectable specialty grain that won't add any unwanted extra color or flavours to the kit but still give it that lovely fresh-grain craft beer taste and mouth feel. Though with a pale ale you could use a light crystal malt if you wanted a bit of extra color and the barest hint of caramel in the taste.

Amarillo is a great flavoring/aroma hop. At 10 minutes into the boil you'll get a good hit of flavor from it. I'd boil the Nelson over dry hopping it maybe;

10g Nelson @ 15 min
20g Amarillo @ 10 min
20g Amarillo @ dry hopped.

Boiling the Nelson might get you a little closer to the Fat Yak, some cascade would help to but in a pinch Amarillo is always a winner IMHO.


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