# Kit and Kilo Real Ale low in alcohol. Any ideas?



## He-brew (7/1/16)

Hey guys,

I put on a Coopers Real Ale last week and after getting my OG reading, and now my SG, it seems it's quite low in alcohol. See below for my process. It's only my second brew, a year after my first so maybe I'm a little rusty...

Coopers Real Ale
1kg flavour booster
Safale s-04 yeast
EK Goldings finishing hops

Steep EKG for 10mins
Mix with wort and added EK bag also
6L boiling water to Fermenter to mix
Top up to 23L with cold water

I checked the OG at around 27.5° = 1.0415 (with adjustment for temperature)
Then added yeast

Is the problem that my yeast was too active at that temperature?

Thank you in advance brew kings!


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## Feldon (7/1/16)

What was your FG?

Also, try to keep the temp lower than the high 20s. Aim for 20C when you add the yeast. Fermentation produces its own heat so things will only get warmer.

eg. put beer bottles of water in the fridge (covered with aluminium foil or caps) the night before and use this chilled water to bring the wort down in temp. You can calculate how much chilled water you will need by using a calculater like this one: http://www.onlineconversion.com/mixing_water.htm . Note that 1 millilitre of water = 1 gram, so 1 litre of water = 1000 grams. You might be able to use less than 6 litres of boiling water to dissolve your ingredients so you can reduce the number of bottles of chilled water you will need to achieve 20c temp for pitching the yeast).


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## He-brew (7/1/16)

Good tip Feldon!
I checked last night and the hydrometer sat at 1.19.
I'll check again tonight and see what it's doing. Is it possible is still fermenting?

We've had a heap of rain in Sydney so the temperature has been fairly low for a few days now. Probably around 19°C in my garage/brewery/man shed
I'll repost when I check later tonight


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## Droopy Brew (7/1/16)

Yes mate at 1.019 you should expect it to drop at least another 5- 7 points, maybe more.
Your starting gravity looks about right for the amount of fermentables. Nothing wrong there, you just need more fermentation time. If the gravity doesnt move for a couple of days give it a swirl and try to liven up the wee beasties.


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## He-brew (7/1/16)

Ok thanks Droopy Brew,
I just read an article about rousing the yeast and it suggested just that.
I'll keep the gods of AHB informed... I really need this to work or I'll be taking up crocheting

P.S. Here's the article in case it helps anyone.
http://beerandwinejournal.com/stuck-ferment-2/


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## Droopy Brew (7/1/16)

I would resist sticking a spoon in the wort as the article suggested, it will increase your likelihood of infection by a fair bit. 1.019 after 7 days isnt terribly bad and a temp of 19C is about perfect.
If it hasn't dropped further then yes you probably have lazy yeast. I would pick up the fermenter and gently swirl to rouse the yeast. give it a day or 2 and if no change, pitch some more yeast. Grab a pack of US05 or Nottingham and that will chew through the rest easily.


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## He-brew (7/1/16)

Ok Droopy Brew.
I'll do exactly that.
Let you know how it goes!

Thank you!


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## He-brew (7/1/16)

I just checked my brew.
It's now sitting at about 1.018, so it's slowing going down! Unless it's just wishful thinking fooling my eyes.
It's currently at 20.5°C
I gave it a good swirl around anyway to try and rouse the yeast a little.
I'll check again tomorrow night and see what happens...


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## michaeld16 (7/1/16)

Many folks have this issue with so4 stopping to soon, if you started fermentation at a high temp and then dropped the temp it probably put it to sleep, a swirl and rise in temp should kick it off again, I think it may be a temperamental yeast.


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## He-brew (7/1/16)

That's interesting. I'll keep that in mind for my next brew.
Would you have pitched a different yeast with the Real Ale kit?
Michaeld16, when you say a rise in temp, what sort of rise are we talking?


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## He-brew (7/1/16)

Also, thanks for everyone's help. I promise to pay it forward when I'm an expert brewer


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## jimmy_jangles (7/1/16)

i'd leave it another 2 or so days before i took another reading mate, give it time, i've had a few batches with that yeast take ages to get down to the final gravity, but i ferment at lower temps. Leaving it a bit longer gives the yeast a chance to go through and clean itself up too

cheers!


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## He-brew (7/1/16)

Ok thanks. I'll try my best to ignore it for a couple of days...


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## michaeld16 (7/1/16)

He-brew said:


> That's interesting. I'll keep that in mind for my next brew.
> Would you have pitched a different yeast with the Real Ale kit?
> Michaeld16, when you say a rise in temp, what sort of rise are we talking?


I loved so4 for my English ales I think it is fine yeast to use despite what people say about it, I just think its a bit sensitive to the temp dropping. Just a degree or so rise is fine seeing you have it at 20.5c already that should be a good temp to leave it at after giving the fermenter a gentle swirl. Give it a few days and take another sample.


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## Droopy Brew (8/1/16)

Nottingham would probably be my pick of a dry yeast for a real ale. It chews through the sugars pretty quickly, is robust and consistent. S04 can be a bit hit and miss IME.


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## goatchop41 (8/1/16)

He-Brew, if you can keep your fermenter at a decent temp consistently, a good habit to get into is to almost forget about it until about the 2 week mark. By that time, most beers _should_ have finished fermenting, and the yeast will have had some extra time to clear up some byproducts of fermentation and/or off-flavours.
Plus, it means that you aren't checking it all of the time, so less stress (and less chance of infection, if you're opening the lid all of the time!).

It takes a few batches to get to the point where you can trust the yeast to just do their thing (you only really need to worry about the yeast with high OG beers/liquid yeasts), but you'll get there!


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## He-brew (8/1/16)

Good to know. Thanks Droopy.


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## wynnum1 (8/1/16)

If you have a stainless stock pot mix the tin and the boiling water together in the pot and use a water bath to cool down and then pour into fermenter.


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## burrster (8/1/16)

As has already been stated, SO4 is a hit and miss yeast, IMO. I personally have had a few stalled ferments at around 1.20, and that was in a temp controlled freezer(set at 18 initially then raised to 21 throughout the 2 week ferment). You'll have to wait it out with the swirl, or add another yeast like nottingham. I bottled one at 1.16 as it seemed stable, primed as per normal, and got over carbed beer, as the yeast finished fermenting the residual sugar as well as the priming sugar. I was lucky i had no bottle bombs.

You're most likely looking for a FG of close to 1.012, or lower. I would go with Nottingham or US05 on the next one as i find both of these consistent and reliable. Good Luck.


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## indica86 (8/1/16)

He-brew said:


> Safale s-04 yeast


Horrible stupid problematic waste of time yeast.


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## QldKev (8/1/16)

I don't mind S04, but you do need to ensure you don't get a temperature drop. Nottingham is def a reliable yeast, but is nothing like S04, Nottingham is a high attenuation yeast, whilst s04 is the other end of the scale being a low attenuation. They produce different beers. As michael said, I would try and raise the temp back up to what it acclimatized to. But really without knowing what the "flavor booster" is made up from we are only guessing an FG.


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## wynnum1 (9/1/16)

Did you Rehydrate the yeast some say that if yeast is added dry to fermenter can be ineffective

Rehydrate the yeast in 10 times its weight of water or wort. Gently stir. Allow a 30 minutes rest. Pitch the resultant cream in the fermenter
*(ale) yeasts are rehydrated at a temperature between 25-29°C (77-84°F) and that bottom fermenting yeasts (lager) are rehydrated at a temperature range of 21-25°C (69-77°F)*


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## He-brew (9/1/16)

Thanks Goatchop. Good advice


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## He-brew (9/1/16)

Yeh the flavour booster is a mystery to me. It's a pack that my local brew shop made up.

I didn't rehydrate my yeast... Maybe I'll try that out next time


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## shacked (9/1/16)

Hey mate, give this article a read: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/articles/article130.html it outlines a good sequence to help you work out if your brew is ready. I'd suggest you give the fast ferment test a go.


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## He-brew (9/1/16)

I just checked the temperature. I haven't touched the brew for almost 2 days. The fermenter temp is at 22°c... I think I'll test with hydrometer later tonight... 
Thanks for all the help... Shacked, maybe I'll try the fast test a crack


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## shacked (9/1/16)

He-brew said:


> I just checked the temperature. I haven't touched the brew for almost 2 days. The fermenter temp is at 22°c... I think I'll test with hydrometer later tonight...
> Thanks for all the help... Shacked, maybe I'll try the fast test a crack


Definitely worth a crack. I do it pretty regularly from hydrometer samples, because... well I just like to tinker.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (9/1/16)

I used s04 for the first time in Tassie - after brewing for years. I rehydrated and with my consistently temped hot water system cupboard, it holds about 22 degrees and I actually found it brewed a really nice mild.

Having said that, I love Notto - at higher temps it does the British thing in a number of ways, at low temps it kills it as a faux-lager (and where it really shines in my brewery).

Mangrove Jacks M79, rehydrated (that took a while to type a couple of beers in) - very much my favourite character British Dry Yeast.


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## He-brew (9/1/16)

I keep that in mind for my next English! Thanks Lord Raja


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## Diesel80 (9/1/16)

Notto is my go to yeast when it simply has to work, because it simply does work.
Works well to 22, works down as low as 15-16 too!
Very neutral. 

S04 is stubborn, i would pitch two packs of it if you use it again. Pretty f*cking lazy most of the time!

Cheers,
D80


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## danestead (10/1/16)

Couple of things. Keep letting it ferment and rouse the yeast as suggested above. At 1.019 or whatever you said its at, it isnt finished. No need for a fast ferment test at this stage because it is just going to tell you that it is not finished fermenting yet. Also, dont rehydrate yeast in wort as suggested above. That is no different to sprinkling yeast on your wort in the fermenter. Rehydrating means in water.


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## He-brew (11/1/16)

burrster said:


> I would go with Nottingham or US05 on the next one as i find both of these consistent and reliable.


Sounds like the majority prefers Nottingham. I'll check that out next time I think...

I checked last night and it seems to still be around the 1.016 mark. I gave it another swirl.
I'll wait a few more days to see what happens. We have warmer weather here at the moment, so hopefully this will help resurrect the yeast?

I definitely won't touch S-04 again, not at least until I know what I'm doing...

I do feel more confident knowing that it was the yeast that screwed it up (that combined with the ridiculous weather), and not my incompetence...

I'll keep posting with my results. Thanks for everyone's input. I've learned a lot!


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## He-brew (11/1/16)

I took my phone for a swim in Port Jackson yesterday, so I'll still be posting my results/revelations, but less frequently, and during work hours most likely, unless my phone decides to grow a pair and come back to life...


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## He-brew (24/1/16)

I'm back. Please excuse my absence.

My brew has safely made it into bottles just this evening.
It's been fermenting for 24 days (or perhaps just sitting there doing nothing at all). The Sydney weather has been brutal. One day it's pouring rain, the next day it's crazy hot. So I'm guessing that probably hasn't really helped.
I took advice from everyone, and a few little tips I actually tried out.

To the mighty brewer who told me to swirl it; that worked. Just a gentle swirl, enough to get the thing moving around, but trying not to really break the surface of the wort, or stir up too much sediment.
The next day I checked and it seemed to have dropped a point or so, then another point the day after that. then it stalled again (possibly due to the funky weather?) so I swirled it again and left it about 3 days. it dropped again, only 1 point or so.

To the mighty brewer who suggested pitching more yeast; that worked. I was desperate, and ready top throw it in the trash. I know this probably isn't advised, but I used about 2/3rds of a bag of the yeats that came with my Coopers kit.
Then left it probably almost a week. Then when I checked it was right down at 1.010.

Checked again today - 1.010.

And finally, I did that quick test that another master brewer recommended. Basically you take a sample, check gravity, then pour the sample into a sterilised jar or something air tight. Then shake the hell out of it every now and then and leave it doing it's thing for a few days. The idea is to see if you can wake up the yeast I'm guessing.
I can tell you with this particular batch, It woke up a sour demon inside my brew. I had a little taste of that particular sample, and it was quite possibly the second worst thing I've ever put in my mouth. The Worst thing I don't wanna talk about.
I read an article about some sort of bacteria forming in the air pockets, which is why they don;t suggest shaking to revive a stalled yeast.

Anyway. I feel like I've taken so much away from this. I thank you all.
My next adventure is an APA. Stay tuned for that one.
My final post on this thread will be in a while a suppose when I get to taste this filthy, convoluted, concoction.


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## pablo_h (25/1/16)

Yeah, I posted a thread a couple of weeks ago about the same thing. It has always dogged me and that's why I've been in and out of homebrewing. It sucked when you've wasted $16 on a K+K, sucks even more with a $30 partial brew like I was doing in 2007-2008.
Stalling at SG 1020 is pretty common for the unlucky it seems, (amazing if you google that expression how many results you'll get, but ask on forums and most people say it's rare and hasn't happened to them!). It's a real thing I've seen many many times, and usually messing about with it brings in an infection and makes it taste sour. If you're slightly luckier, it will end up tasting sweet, but it's still a shit brew.

Yeast makes a lot of flavour, and temp control is a very important part depending on yeast strain. If you can't control temp below 20, or only within a wide band, the coopers kit yeast is still the best option.
I've had my battles with so4 in the past and repitched nottingham back then, but by then it's too late. You need to start with the absolute best conditions for so4, ie rehydrating and at 20C. Even for other preferred yeasts like it's better under 20c and rehydrated too. Same goes for many popular yeast strains people talk about - bad flavours if over 20c or has temp fluctuations.
I wouldn't bother keeping the bottles because I've been there, aged some for 3 months back in 2007, they don't get better.
Either wait until autumn, or get temp control and be able to use specialist yeasts, or just use the coopers kit yeast and put up with the sub optimal flavours. E: and even with kit yeast, my best result was after rehydrating it first.


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## He-brew (25/1/16)

Oh man. That sounds like bad news. I'm not holding any high hopes for this batch now. Thanks for the tip Pablo_h.

Maybe I should hold off til after the summer to get my APA happening then... Or I could just get a sucky batch going now for practice and then go for broke when it cools down.


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## He-brew (3/2/16)

Here we go. The end result:

My brew has been sitting bottled for 10 days. I know that's not really enough, but I was too eager and impatient to wait any longer.
The colour is rich and looks quite red/deep amber, the smell slightly tart (I don't want to say it's wine-y but....) and the head when poured is more fizzy than foamy which is disappointing.
I'm not sure why the head is so fizzy. Could it be the Carbonation drops I used? Next time I'll try a bulk prime and see if that helps.
As for flavour, it's definitely lacking that delicious beer taste. It's almost cider-y without the apple. You can taste a slight fizz. I'm not sure if that will go away after a few more weeks in bottles?

All in all, this batch has been a nightmare, but the forum has made it more interesting and fun. I've learned a lot, and I'm ready to test out another batch. I've got my eyes set on an American Pale Ale, with a few added extras.

Thank you to everyone who has chipped in and helped me out. When I get a little more experience and knowledge I'll be sure to pay it forward.


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## wynnum1 (3/2/16)

10 days is not long enough give a few more days and store cold in the fridge for a week and then try.


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## LAGERFRENZY (3/2/16)

The cidery tartness is probably a result of your yeast throwing off bad esters when your brew kicked off at 27 degrees. This may ease with more extended bottle conditioning. Temperature control is vital to get the yeast working happily within its optimal range. There are some great ideas on this site for cheap and easy fermentation chambers - Mattrox recently made one up using foam off-cuts and Bribie G also did one with a packing carton, bubble wrap and sticky tape. The idea is to house your fermentation vessel in an "esky" that can have sime frozen water bottles enclosed and swapped within to keep your fermenter within a reasonably controlled range. Swamp coolers will also work if there is no other option available. Believe me, the sooner you can get your temps controlled your brews will improve dramatically.


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## He-brew (3/2/16)

but Wynnum1, I couldn't wait!!! I had to see what it tasted like!!
I'll get some in my fridge tonight, and wait...

Lagerfrenzy, I guess that was my first mistake. Pitching at 27c. That won't happen again.

I'll have a look into some temperature control stuff. My patience won't suffer another crappy batch.


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## Grott (3/2/16)

Have a look at http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/81908-fermenter-temperature-control/, this method is easy, cheap and is still working well to this day, have 2 brews down, one sitting at 19.2 (week old), other at 16.2 ( put down yesterday and bubbling away). 

With your brew as stated now leave for a few weeks, it will be better and a week in the fridge would be tops, if you can.
Cheers


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## He-brew (3/2/16)

That's great! I'll check it out! I was just looking up some cheap stress free ways to keep the temp down!
Thanks Grott


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## pablo_h (3/2/16)

I've got no fancy temp control, but working on it as it's the second most important thing about brewing (after sanitation)
I've got no large cooler bags, fridge or esky large enough to hold a standard or coopers fermenter.

1st solution, get a 25l pail/bucket style fermenter as they are smaller. With this I've found a 20l cooler bag - the type people buy for shopping/home delivery - fits even with tap.
It doesn't go all the way up but with a bucket fermenter there's enough room to fit 2x 1.25L bottles of ice and 2x blue ice bricks if you have them. The bag hold the ice containers and gives you a waterproof base. Put the whole lot in a inside out sleeping bag if you have one, or lots of blankets/doona wrap

2nd solution, if you have a 55l willow esky, a 20l cube just fits inside. Will have to do smaller batches and not have an airlock (cover with sanatized alfoil or gladwrap), fit's a few frozen 2-3l juice or milk bottles with ice in there to keep things cool.

3rd solution, if you only have a smaller 45-50L esky, two 10L springwater containers fit (without airlocks again), so either do 16L batches split between two containers, or two different brews in mini batches. E: you'll need a racking cane with these though as no lower tap.

I'd love to buy some "100 can cooler" bags to run full size fermenters even in hot weather, but I've been unable to find any. I'm just working with what I have (heaps of eskies, old sleeping bag), so no doubt you'll find a solutions to work with what you already have or for minimal outlay too.

Bonus is if you go the bag/esky route, then you have somewhere to put the bottles in while they are conditioning too.

I wish I had a half dead fridge or something. I used to be a fridgey, even had a home made controller (old dixell from a cafe, died because coffee spills ruin the compr relay). But the fan relay still worked and you could program that to cycle by temp and I just wired an external relay off that to run the 1960 fridge my 80 y/o neighbour gave me. Had to toss the fridge a couple of house moves ago though 
E: also had a sleepout room with old kitchen cabinets from a reno, lined the cabinets with insulation for winter heated brewing (and all year round bottle conditioning).
But right now got nothing, starting again with almost $0 budget.


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## Rocker1986 (4/2/16)

Sucks about the old fridge mate, those things are bloody brilliant. I'm using a 1950s vintage as my ferment fridge, hasn't skipped a beat.



He-brew said:


> Lagerfrenzy, I guess that was my first mistake. Pitching at 27c. That won't happen again.


There's a difference between pitching at 27C and starting the fermentation at 27C. Bear in mind that this is only my personal experience so it's not a scientific fact or anything, but I regularly pitch ales in the mid 20s without any issues at all. Of course, they are immediately thrown in the ferment fridge and brought down to 18 ASAP but no cidery apple flavours in sight, I can only figure because they are brought down before the fermentation itself actually starts. Next one I'm gonna experiment with sticking the cube in the fridge to bring it down first, like I do with my lagers.

Of course without any temp control this is a lot more difficult to do.


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## wynnum1 (4/2/16)

Non working small chest freezer is good if you are capable of lifting fermenter out and co2 _doesn't _get you.Also good to use as a work bench.


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## Mattrox (5/2/16)

Rocker1986 said:


> Sucks about the old fridge mate, those things are bloody brilliant. I'm using a 1950s vintage as my ferment fridge, hasn't skipped a beat.
> 
> 
> There's a difference between pitching at 27C and starting the fermentation at 27C. Bear in mind that this is only my personal experience so it's not a scientific fact or anything, but I regularly pitch ales in the mid 20s without any issues at all. Of course, they are immediately thrown in the ferment fridge and brought down to 18 ASAP but no cidery apple flavours in sight, I can only figure because they are brought down before the fermentation itself actually starts. Next one I'm gonna experiment with sticking the cube in the fridge to bring it down first, like I do with my lagers.
> ...


I started rehydrating my yeast and the rehydrate temps are ~30. So after 15 mins rehydration its still like 30ish. I decided it was stupid to pitch 28 - 30 degree yeast into 18 degree wort so I use cold water to bring any boil I do down and it is often 26 or 27 when I pitch. The lowest was 24. Like you I have never had any trouble with off flavours and I fridge it straight away. Often I brew in the evening and it's late by the time I get it in the fridge, but it is always down to ferment temps by morning.

My 1st brew in the foam chamber I had the wort at 35, so I put it in the chamber with soft drink bottles of ice, it went down to 29 so I pitched. By morning it was 21. Swapped the ice bottles and it was slightly under 18 very promptly. If I was more organised and fridged my brew water the night before I would have been able to pitch in the 20's and all the ice I used up to pull 35 to 29 would still be there to start work in the high 20's, therefore quicker cooling to ideal ferment temps from say 27 or 28. It is possible without a fridge, but you still need good insulation. After I got the temp to 18, it has been 17.7 to 19.5, controlled only by ice, even on warm days in the low to mid 30's. 

It will just be a matter of getting a container that the fermenter fits into, ie an old rubbish bin with lid etc, and wrapping with some sort of insulation and getting lots of frozen 1.25 and 2L bottles. The better the insulation the less ice needed.


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## He-brew (5/2/16)

What exactly does rehydrating the yeast do?
Does it make it ferment faster? Or make the fermentation process more effective?
Does it improve the taste at all?

I'm looking into the temp control situation. Might find a dodgy fridge on gumtree.

As for priming, I'm suspicious about those carbonation drops. I'm starting to think that's what's making my brews fizzy rather than foamy.
Bulk prime my next batch for sure. Might need a little more research before I do.


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## shacked (5/2/16)

He-brew said:


> What exactly does rehydrating the yeast do?
> Does it make it ferment faster? Or make the fermentation process more effective?
> Does it improve the taste at all?



Check this one out mate: https://youtu.be/SL92Bd4kfbQ


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## Droopy Brew (5/2/16)

He-brew said:


> What exactly does rehydrating the yeast do?
> Does it make it ferment faster? Or make the fermentation process more effective?
> Does it improve the taste at all?
> 
> ...


I dont think it has anything to do with carb drops. I use them all the time becuase I keg and only bottle a few tallies per batch. They work fine. Bulk prime is usually used for 2 reasons- it is slightly cheaper (brewers are renowned tight arses) and it offers more control over the volume of CO2. Different styles are better at different volumes.
What I think you are experiencing is a lack of body in the beer. Next brew, see if you can get powdered corn starch from the brew shop and add 250g of that. Failing that, up the amount of malt and reduce the amount of dex. In fact your beer will probably be a lot better if you drop the dex completely and use only liquid and dry malts.


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## He-brew (5/2/16)

Shacked, thank you. That video makes it look quite easy! I'll definitely try that next batch.

Droopy Brew, so I might as well stick with the carbonation drops just because it saves me buying another fermenter and stick with LME or DME?
I'm kinda glad you said that because I'm only using LME on this next brew. Maybe that'll make all the difference.


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## Mattrox (5/2/16)

He-brew said:


> What exactly does rehydrating the yeast do?
> Does it make it ferment faster? Or make the fermentation process more effective?
> Does it improve the taste at all?
> 
> ...


Rehydrating according to the manufacturer's specifications gives the best chance for a clean ferment. A lot of people do sprinkle yeast on the wort and report good results. It's just that if you are trouble shooting, it eliminates 1 factor.

Sprinkling on work may kill up to 50% of the yeast and may result in underpitching. Underpitching does affect taste.

With regard to fizzy, sometimes a little longer in the bottle and a little longer at cold temperatures helps with fizzy. That is presuming it's not over carbonated.


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## Rocker1986 (5/2/16)

I should note that I forgot to mention in my other post that I make yeast starters for each batch. These are placed in the ferm fridge set to 0C for a day or two prior to pitching day, then removed that morning and allowed to rise to room temp. This way the yeast and wort are at the same temp when pitching. it works similarly when I do lagers, when I take the starter out I put the cube in to chill down, so again both should be pretty close to each other in temp.


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## He-brew (9/2/16)

Found a bar fridge on gumtree for $15!
Apparently it ices up so it's not really functional anymore but for me, it's perfect.



I shifted the element so my fermenter would fit. It's snug, but still has room underneath for the drawer for ice packs if need be. Can't wait to test this bad boy out.


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## Ben1 (10/2/16)

Don't be too down about the beer, it will mellow over time and will tend to taste the better the more you have!

You should see some great improvements with the temp control. Soon you'll be making better beer than you can buy.


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## He-brew (10/2/16)

Haha you're right! Second bottle in and it's the greatest thing I've ever tasted!

As soon as I get a free couple of hours I'll be testing this new set up out. Hopefully my faith in home brewing will be restored.


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