# Maltodextrin In Beersmith?



## BjornJ (28/8/09)

I was playing around with a recipe in beersmith the other night and aiming for a light american lager "type" to get a light bodied, low alcohol beer.

Playing around with the recipe I thought it was quite low FG so I thought I could add maltodextrin to add body without increasing the alcohol levels.

But choosing "add Misc" and adding maltodextrin does not change FG?
Adding 0.2 kg or 200 kg has no effect.

Is there another way I should do this in beersmith?

thanks
Bjorn


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## buttersd70 (28/8/09)

Bjorn,
Beersmith doesnt' take into account any ingredients fermentability (or lack of it) in its predicted FG. It bases it's prediction soley on OG, and the "average" attenuation of the specified yeast. 

Further, from the point of an AG brewer, it doesnt' take into account the fermentability of an AG wort based on grist composition or mash schedule, either.

For the purposes of adding non fermentable adjuncts, such as maltodextrine, or lactose, check the OG and predicted FG of the recipe _without _it, then add it into the recipe and check the change in the OG....then add the extra gravity points it contributes to the FG that was predicted _without _it, and take that as your predicted FG. Although, the fg will of course vary based on many factors, so it should be taken with a *big *pinch of salt.

eg...recipe without maltodex has OG 1045 and FG of 1010....if you add the maltodex, and get OG 1050 and FG of (say) 1012 (edit. In your case, it may be that the reasonably small amount of md isnt affecting the gravity, due to rounding off in beersmiths calculation, ie it's only going to be a point or 2 on the OG, which isn't enough to change the FG by a whole point), then you take the 5 extra points on the OG, and add them to the _original _FG prediction, of 1010, giving 1015 predicted FG, then put it in the notes section.


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## Renegade (28/8/09)

Think about it. If you are adding an ingredient from scratch (Add misc) then there aren't any rules in the background. You could write 'dogshit' in there and all you're creating is a title with no calculatable backbone. 

Isn't 'Corn Syrup" an acceptable sub in Beersmith for maltodextrine ? Either way, the quantities of MDX are so small in a batch (or they _should_ be) that fermentability variation isn't a big deal (my opinion only - but I rarely follow any set rules or recipes in this hobby)


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## buttersd70 (28/8/09)

Corn syrup, as listed in beersmith is, if you read the descriptor, not maltodextrin, but is high fructose corn syrup (ie, highly fermentable). I _hate _the use of the term 'corn syrup', because it can mean either maltodextrin (when referring to dry corn syrup), or can refer to hfcs; or, alternatively, can refer to liquid glucose that has been derived from corn; and they are all totally different animals.

Beersmith doesn't have maltodextrin in it's ingredients list (as a default), but as renegade said, you can make it up as a new ingredient. The problem still remains that it doesnt' take into account its fermentability as far as working out the FG....

to give an example, I'll use lactose, because it _is_ in beersmith as a default ingredient choice.

*Type*_*:*_ All Grain

*Date*_*:*_ 28/08/2009 *Batch Size:* 23.02 L

*Brewer:* *Boil Size*_*:*_ 24.98 L *Asst Brewer:* *Boil Time:* 60 min *Equipment:* My Equipment *Taste Rating(out of 50):* 35.0 *Brewhouse Efficiency:* 75.0 *Taste Notes:* *Ingredients*​ Amount Item Type % or IBU 4.00 kg Milk Sugar (Lactose) (0.0 EBC) Sugar 100.0 % 1 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast-Ale ​ *Beer Profile*​ *Est Original Gravity:* *1.051 SG*

*Measured Original Gravity:* 1.010 SG _*Est Final Gravity:*_ *1.012 SG* *Measured Final Gravity:* 1.005 SG *Estimated Alcohol by Vol*_*:*_ 5.0 % 

I think that the lactose default in beersmith is for a liquid; however, that's neither here nor there.

compare that to using cane sugar to the same OG....

*Type*_*:*_ All Grain

*Date*_*:*_ 28/08/2009 *Batch Size:* 23.02 L

*Brewer:* *Boil Size*_*:*_ 24.98 L *Asst Brewer:* *Boil Time:* 60 min *Equipment:* My Equipment *Taste Rating(out of 50):* 35.0 *Brewhouse Efficiency:* 75.0 *Taste Notes:* *Ingredients*​ Amount Item Type % or IBU 3.05 kg Cane (Beet) Sugar (0.0 EBC) Sugar 100.0 % 1 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast-Ale ​ *Beer Profile*​ *Est Original Gravity:** 1.051 SG*

*Measured Original Gravity:* 1.010 SG _*Est Final Gravity:*_ *1.012 SG* *Measured Final Gravity:* 1.005 SG *Estimated Alcohol by Vol*_*:*_ 5.0 % _*Actual Alcohol by Vol:*_ 0.6 % _*Bitterness:*_ 0.0 IBU *Calories*_*:*_ 90 cal/l _*Est Color:*_ 0.0 EBC *Color:* 

same OG, because I added enough cane sugar to give me the same OG.....but look at the FG. It's the same. Highly fermentable sucrose will, according to beersmith, give me the same FG as non fermentable lactose. As we know, that's not the case.  

And yes, I've tried to formulate a workaround by changing the properties of the ingredients, I've done it every which way....but you can't get it to estimate the FG correctly without buggering the OG calculation, and vice versa.

edit; funky formatting. :lol:


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## Renegade (28/8/09)

I don't have Beersmith on the PC I'm presently using, so will have to look into it later, but.... 

Buttersd70, are you saying that when you add a new ingredient in the grains & sugars listing, you cannot alter the properties to create a whole new calculatable profile on your custom entry ? That strikes me as strange, because you can create a new hop entry and add the elements yourself (AA, boil time etc)

Or are you saying that an ingredient profile can be created with fermentability aspects, but beersmith doesn't calculate non-factory entries very well?


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## Adamt (28/8/09)

Renegade:



buttersd70 said:


> Beersmith doesnt' take into account any ingredients fermentability (or lack of it) in its predicted FG. It bases it's prediction soley on OG, and the "average" attenuation of the specified yeast.



This.

i.e. For fermentable ingredients there is no variable for "fermentability".


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## BjornJ (28/8/09)

Not sure what I am doing wrong here..

I added it to the recipe just to record the increased OG, then planned to remove it again and comment in the notes "add 0.2 kg of maltodextrin for the 5 min hop boil, this will increase FG with X"

But when adding Maltodextrin, the OG (or FG) does not change at all..

Increasing the amount to 400 Kg changes nothing, not a single point in neither OG or FG?


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## Renegade (28/8/09)

I suspected that was the case with the yeasts, but never considered that fermentability was an average 'across the board' rule. That's really, really dumb. I'm going to have to play around with this when I get home (not that I don't disbelieve you guys, but I want to do a sample recipe for myself). 

400Kg is too much Maltodextrin :lol: 


edit: typo


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## AndrewQLD (28/8/09)

Adamt said:


> Renegade:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All of the brewing software available has this limitation as far as I know, it also extends to wort fermentability based on mash temperature as well. These are all limitations set in place because of the unpredictable nature and variations in home brewing and also ingredients. That's the reason why you are able to set your FG based on actual results, to reflect what you truly get.

As far as I know Brad from Beersmith is actually looking at incorporating some hefty upgrades in the near future that could well include what you are talking about in the OT. 

Andrew


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## buttersd70 (28/8/09)

Yep, in fairness to beersmith, it's not just a beersmith issue, it's across the board. 

Bjorn....
enter the maltodex, then double click it to bring up the property box....what is the potential and the dry yield fine grain?


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## AndrewQLD (28/8/09)

BjornJ said:


> Not sure what I am doing wrong here..
> 
> I added it to the recipe just to record the increased OG, then planned to remove it again and comment in the notes "add 0.2 kg of maltodextrin for the 5 min hop boil, this will increase FG with X"
> 
> ...



That's because for some obscure reason it's listed in the miscellaneous ingredients section and not in the grains and extracts section, so it hasn't got all the relevent details.

Andrew


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## Adamt (28/8/09)

It's because Bjorn added it as a custom miscellaneous ingredient. Miscellaneous ingredients are just used by Beersmith to remind you to put them in, they have no bearing whatsoever on the calculations.

You should add it as a grain/extract and fiddle with the properties there - or just use the already-made "Corn Syrup" ingredient.


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## BjornJ (28/8/09)

This is the property sheet for the maltodextrin.

I tried to find it under grain/sugars but the only place it is listed is under "Misc."


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## BjornJ (28/8/09)

If I add it as a new Grain or Malt, what do I put in all these boxes?

Guessing the Yield potential is the one that matters?


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## AndrewQLD (28/8/09)

Potential is 1.040
Put it in as an adjunct and the EBC as 0

Once you change from grain to adjunct a few of the inputs will grey out


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## BjornJ (28/8/09)

Shouldn't potential be lower than grain, as the sugar is not fermented but left in the beer?

Guessing 1.000 means not fermentable at all, but that would not give the right OG as now beersmith would see it as adding water


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## AndrewQLD (28/8/09)

Actually you could put it in as a sugar if you wanted to.

Andrew


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## AndrewQLD (28/8/09)

BjornJ said:


> Shouldn't potential be lower than grain, as the sugar is not fermented but left in the beer?
> 
> Guessing 1.000 means not fermentable at all, but that would not give the right OG as now beersmith would see it as adding water



No, you will get 1.040 SG form using 1 kg malto dextrine in a lt of water, it doesn't infer it will ferment out, you will have to work that out yourself as rightly pointed out by Butters.

Andrew


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## buttersd70 (28/8/09)

BjornJ said:


> Shouldn't potential be lower than grain, as the sugar is not fermented but left in the beer?
> 
> Guessing 1.000 means not fermentable at all, but that would not give the right OG as now beersmith would see it as adding water



No, the potential doesnt' actually relate to the fermentability...it's potential gravity, not potential fermentable sugar. (ie, it's the potential to change the density. Youll notice that when you change the potential, the dry yield changes automagically...so the potential of liquid malt extract would be whatever it needs to be to give you 80% - as 20% is water.)

edit: beaten.

missed picking your prob up in the first pic, don't have my glasses on.


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## Renegade (28/8/09)

BjornJ said:


> Guessing 1.000 means not fermentable at all, but that would not give the right OG as now beersmith would see it as adding water



1.000 mean there's no potential fermentables in the liquid. It doesn't mean 'water'. But for the sake of this thread, let's say 1.00 is water  

Andrew has nailed it in his last post, and Butters mentioned it above. It appears that the software will give you a fair accuracy on your OG for most additions (Im still not at home so haven't tried maltodextrine) but the stated FG will not be correct. Ie the fermentability% or attenuation% are estimates. 

Is this how I'm reading you blokes?


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## AndrewQLD (28/8/09)

Renegade said:


> No, 1.000 mean there's no potential fermentables in the water.
> 
> Andrew has nailed it in his last post, and Butters mentioned it above. It appears that the software will give you a fair accuracy on your OG for most additions (Im still not at home so haven't tried maltodextrine) but the stated FG will not be correct. Ie the fermentability% or attenuation% are estimate.
> 
> Is this how I'm reading you blokes?



Spot on.

Andrew


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## BjornJ (28/8/09)

ok, have I got this right:


To add maltodextrin in beersmith:
1: add it as a new grain/extract, use 1.040 as yield
2: Add maltodextrin to the recipe, noticing the change in OG
3:calculate actual change in FG as 0.95 x "change in OG" (95% fermentable)
4: remove maltodextrin from the recipe, add it to the notes saying something along the lines of "adding 200 gr of maltodextrin as this will increase FG from X to Y"
5: Use the recipe as normal, knowing the FG listed by beersmith is off by the points calculated in point 3.

Is that the way to go?

thanks again 

Bjorn


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## buttersd70 (28/8/09)

BjornJ said:


> ok, have I got this right:
> 
> 
> To add maltodextrin in beersmith:
> ...


This is how I'd do it:

1: add it as a new grain/extract, use 1.040 as yield
2: enter the recipe without maltodextrin
3: note the OG and FG
4: Add maltodextrin to the recipe, noticing the change in OG
5: Add the (change in OG from 4)*0.95 to the FG from 3 
6: Add in the notes "actual predicted fg due to maltodextin = (whatever is in 5)
7: Use the recipe as normal, knowing the OG listed by beersmith is correct, and the predicted FG is off by the change in the OG calculated in point 4.

Alternate method, to manually work it out: 
_*
Danger Will Robinson, Mathematics involved......not necessary to know this, but if you're interested, carry on.... *_ :lol: 

Enter the recipe in full, including the maltodextrin. The following actually has maltodextrin as 100% yield, not 95% - I use this to simplify the formulas. But that 5 % difference would only make a change in the decimal places that will be rounded off later, anyway, so don't worry about it, leave beersmith as 95%/1040 in the yield.

Look at the "% or IBU" field
check the properties of the yeast, and note the 'average attenuation'
work out your FG using the following formula:
(% of maltodex x OG) + (% of other ingredients x (OG-(attenuation*OG)))

so, for example, you have 95% ldm and 5% maltodextrin, 1050 OG, and yeast rated to 75%:

(0.05 x 50) + (0.95 x (50-(0.75x50))) =

2.5 + (0.95 x (50-37.5)) =
2.5 + (0.95 x 12.5) =
2.5 + 11.875 =
14.375 = FG of 1.014

which can be expanded to include lactose (which you would just treat the same as for maltodex, ie combine the percentages), or to also include dextrose and glucose, to account for their higher fermentability....just add an additional field, using 100% attenuation (instead of what the yeasts rated % is) for glucose (which effectively removes it from the equation - it leaves no residual sugars), and 92% for dextrose (as it is a monohydrate, and as such contains ~8% water). As such:

1050 OG, 80% malt, 15% dextrose, 5% maltodextrin, 75% for the yeast....
(0.05 x 50) + (0.8 x (50-(0.75x50))) + (0.2 x (50-(0.92x50))) =
2.5 + (0.8 x (50-37.5)) + (0.2 x (50-46)) =
2.5 + (0.8 x 12.5) + (0.2 x 4) =
2.5 + 10 + 0.8 =
13.3 = 1013 OG


So now we have all 3 variables, a practicle example (that you are probably familiar with) can be given; namely, a kit and kilo made with BE2 (0.5kg ldm, 0.25 MD, 0.25 dex)

in 23L, it should give 1039 OG...and it is (roughly) 10.6% dex, 10.6% md, 88.8% malt.
(0.106x39)+(0.888x(39-(0.75x39))) + (0.106x(39-(0.92x39) = missing a few steps in the working....
4.134 + 8.658 + 0.33072 = 13.12272 = 1013

These are the calculations that I used to use in an excell sheet, and I'm sure that ianh uses them (or something very similar) in his spreadsheet. Not something you need to know, but it may be of interest to you.....this is how I work out potential fg for k&k brewers that are having issues (or who post up the question, what will my fg be?)....when I answer those kind of q's, Ill normally give a range, with one calculated at 70%, and the other at 75% for the yeast (unless the variety is known, in which case I use the average data)....but in all cases, it's theoretical, anyway, cos there are soooo many factors that will effect the actual attenuation of the yeast, and the fermentability potential of the ingredients is only one of them. So as with many things in brewing, it's a *guide *only.

Just thought you might like to know this, cos lately you've been asking a lot more "why?" questions, as opposed to "what?" questions.


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## Renegade (28/8/09)

Bjorn, you're probably being a bit too fastidious in your quest to determine the effect of the maltodextrin on your finished brew. If you're using any more than a couple of hundred grams, you really should re-evaluate your ingredients bill. And anything less than 200g is really a negligible change to your FG. 

Personally, I wouldn't worry about the calculations for it.


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## Gulf (28/8/09)

Wouldn't the easiest workaround be just to manually adjust the "Avg Attenuation" figure in the yeast item? Or am I missing something?

Eg. for 5% maltodextrin (or other unfermentable) and a 75% attenuating yeast:
0.75 x (1.00 - 0.05) = 71.25%

You would just need to remember to adjust the figure last thing after any changes to the ingredients.
Perhaps not as precise as Butter's "alternate" method but would be good enough I would think.


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## BjornJ (29/8/09)

thanks for your advice on how to calculate it guys, Butters and AndrewQLD.

Butters, thanks for taking the time to type all of that in, interesting to learn how to calculate it. I will go over it again in more detail next week to make sure I got it.

I have never used maltodextrin, just think it sounds interesting to try adding an unfermentable sugar to increase the body of a light beer without increasing the alcohol.
Going back to scandinavia for leave this year I had lots of low alcohol beers of more "fancy" types than I had ever seen. Dark beers, really malty brown ales, totally alcohol-free dark beers, a mid-strength porter that was really nice, etc. Several of the low- or no- alcohol beers were "malty" or sweet-tasting, not thin and watery.
After tasting it for a while it hit me that they basically tasted like what the LDME smells like.
My guess is that they make a low- or no-alcohol beer, then kill or filter off the yeast before mixing in more malt extract to give it body and sweetness. It tasted really nice and I thought of having read of this maltodextrin that would add FG but not alcohol I want to try it for myself.

I would love to be able to make a "full bodied" beer with low enough alcohol that I can drink more than a couple without feeling tipsy, hehe.

Thanks again guys,
Bjorn


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## buttersd70 (29/8/09)

Bjorn,
another alternative to maltodextrin is steeping carapils - it's also known as carafoam, or 'dextrin malt'  

link

given that you're now at the stage of mashing, one thing you could add to really boost the malt flavour (which can be problematic in very low OG beers) is melanoidin. It's been described to me as 'munich on steroids'. link

as for the typing....I realised after I typed it that not only have I posted that info before, I even have it bookmarked so that I could just add a link. But I forgot  
link
You can ignore the bit in this post about conversion to 'extract weight' if using beersmith, cos that's what you do to get the percentage amount that beersmith gives you anyway....a couple of posts down I talk about working out OG based on potential, using both ppg and HWE.


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## BjornJ (29/8/09)

That's another good idea, maybe I should replace some of my "standard" malts with carapils and add melanoidn malt to increase the malt flavor..

I have added carapils/carafoam in the beers I have made recently but only 0.20 kg as I thought it was only supposed to be a little bit of that stuff for head retention, etc. Reading on the details sheet for the grain on your link I see it says for low-alcohol beer you can actually have up to 40% of the stuff.

Melanoidn malt, have only read of this before I saw it in Dave's homebrew the other week and he called it that exact thing "Munich on steroids". You don't run a homebrew shop in North Sydney, do you Butters?  

Maybe I should change my next brew from the lager copy I am playing with, (thinking San Fransisco lager-at-ale temperature yeast and 25% flaked corn) into a Mild recipe using a high percentage of carapils and melanoidn.. Hmm..

thanks


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## Renegade (29/8/09)

BjornJ said:


> Melanoidn malt, have only read of this before I saw it in Dave's homebrew the other week and he called it that exact thing "Munich on steroids". You don't run a homebrew shop in North Sydney, do you Butters?



Dave & Butters are the same people. He flies in from Adelaide to Bankstown Airport in his private jet three times a week, serves a few K & B hobbyists some tins of goopy goodness, then retires to the Epoch at Cammeray for some nasty skunked Belgians. A day to sleep it off in St Leonards Park, with newspapers stuffed in his flanelette shirt to keep him warm, then rolls over to Percy's for a jug of VB, then a Silver-Service taxi back to Bankstown, and his awaiting jet to fly him back to SA. 

High-Class Pimp, our Buttrose.


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## Renegade (3/9/09)

No nibbles ?


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## Barley Belly (3/9/09)

Have used carapils for the first time instead of wheat for head retention

Waiting to see how it turns out


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