# Who invented BIAB?



## dagryll (10/8/13)

I've read elsewhere that BIAB was invented in Australia. Does anyone know its origins? How long ago did you first hear about it? I'm thinking it probably developed out of the Bew-In-A-Dustbin method, but wondering if any old-timers out there have any info on this.


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## Yob (10/8/13)

First reference (and earliest) is in Dave Line's Big Book of Brewing (that I've seen)


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## dagryll (10/8/13)

Might have to get hold of a copy. These old books are great, as long as one doesn't use them as a bible. The Keith Linden book, Brewing Beer At Home (1970) is a curiosity.... 6-8 hour mash times....


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## Ducatiboy stu (10/8/13)

The modern BIAB can be credited to Pistol Pat. He used to be om here...but havent heard from him for a long time. I think he is in Perth


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## mmmyummybeer (10/8/13)

dagryll said:


> I've read elsewhere that BIAB was invented in Australia. Does anyone know its origins? How long ago did you first hear about it? I'm thinking it probably developed out of the Bew-In-A-Dustbin method, but wondering if any old-timers out there have any info on this.


I thought the same, but was quickly informed by a few Aussie home brewers that it was in fact a UK inventions. Doesn't seem to be much definitive info though and only loose references to its beginnings, Which is a pity as it would be good to know and I was hoping it really was an Australian invention.


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## Ducatiboy stu (10/8/13)

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/11694-a-guide-to-all-grain-brewing-in-a-bag/page-1


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## Lecterfan (10/8/13)

Actually the earliest reference was found in some of the medieval writings of the famous scholar St. Grogginus, often known as the arse-faced monk (for reasons best not discussed here). It is believed that St. Grogginus was one of the first of the scholastics to shift away from the Aristotelian-infleunced/neo-Platonic Christian metaphysic in favour of brewing heavily hopped West Coast IPAs. Although the translations are contentious, the academically accepted translation of _Reflections of a God Fearing Man upon the brewing of a Shit-Hot IPA by the Grace of the Almighty_ (circa 1472) by Booby & Bumspittle is rendered thus:

"...and lo upon reflection, it seemeth to me - as lazy a man as God hath ever created - that I could be rid of this horrid pale blue 70 litre icebox which doth plague me with it's presence and causeth much grief to me without an adjustable twin roller mill and simply use my night-dress as a primitive filter to containeth my grains..." (pg. 156)

and later in the same volume:

"...woe to he without the pleasing sound of the gulls to soothe his mash bed, and rejoice verily for he that doth dunk his cereals wrapt (sic) herein the garments that once girded his loins...for even though thine losses to trub be mighty, thine step mashing with an adequate paddle blessed by the Father be a job done in an angels fart (translators note - this last saying was a common one at the time and through a mistake in translation by the original Professor Dontwantnuthinbutagoodtimehowcaniresist was eventually rendered as 'in the blink of an eye')..." (pg. 212).

It is worth bearing in mind that although 3v was well entrenched at the time, the invention of HERMS by the Spanish sailor and inventor Jose Wheresamyshipgone was still months away (and of course that famous tale involving the clydesdale, three sheep bladders and a local three legged goat named Pepe need not be recounted here haha!).

Back on topic.

St. Grogginus famously created recipes with measurements that called for "enough hops so that the aroma shall be experienced even by those in the holy land" (_Man is Nought but Hops in__ the Whirlpool of God_ circa 1478) and was once quoted as saying "surely if Christ himself did strike me in the throat with his notably skilled Shaolin-trained Iron Palm, this be the level of bitterness that a good brew should contain" (_Liars and Paederasts: Famous Medieval Scholastic Drunkards_, Glammetalwasfun & Whathappennedtoblackielawless, 1984, pg xi).


But of course the above replies are more credible in terms of recent innovations. The original biab threads are a hoot to read. And if you think this post was long, wait until you read PP's!


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## Ducatiboy stu (10/8/13)

He was a legand....he put up with a lot of crap but stuck to his guns. If you think his posts where long you should have been to some of the swap meets. Once he started a speech he would not stop....

I miss his long half pissed posts.


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## S.E (10/8/13)

I brewed my first all grain in the UK around 1988-89 after purchasing a grain bag, bruheat boiler (commonly known as the bucket of death on this forum)and a copy of Dave Lines Brewing Beers Like those you Buy from the LHBS. The same HBS was still selling grain bags and the Bucket of Death when I last visited about three years ago.

Just had a look at my Dave Line book and it was first published in 1978 (after his Big Book of Brewing I think). Stage 2 of every recipe in the book “Contain the mashed grain in a large grain bag to retrieve the sweet wort”.

I don’t know if BIAB was invented in Australia or not though.


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## Bizier (10/8/13)

Druids


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## AndrewQLD (10/8/13)

It definitely wasn't invented here, but the method certainly was refined and improved here.


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## S.E (10/8/13)

AndrewQLD said:


> It definitely wasn't invented here, but the method certainly was refined and improved here.


Interesting, in what way was it refined and improved?


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## AndrewQLD (10/8/13)

S.E said:


> Interesting, in what way was it refined and improved?


A fair bit of testing went into looking at efficiencies with the method including the effects of full volume mashing on final wort as opposed to sparging, mash ph at full volume, crush size and efficiency ect.
From memory Dave Line used the bag more as a straining device and sparged as well.
The BIAB method that Pistol Patch and many others worked on was for a full volume mash with no sparging required and the main idea was to be able to use only one vessel for the whole process rather than having multiple vessels to do the job.


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## Screwtop (10/8/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> The modern BIAB can be credited to Pistol Pat. He used to be om here...but havent heard from him for a long time. I think he is in Perth


Boy do I remember his passion for Brew In A Bag, and his loooooooong phone calls. Pat was convinced that Brew In A Bag was the way to go. I think Ross organised a lady to sew up the first bag for Pat to use in his small one bedroom apartment at The Gold Coast. Talking to him one night on the phone I said "this BI ABB thing is a great way for newbies to get into all grain brewing". Pretty much after that is was referred to as BIAB and Pat was the leading proponent of the method. He has been interviewed for US brewing podcasts and provided input to Brad Smith for the upgrade of Beersmith so that BIAb could be included as a brewing method. Pat certainly was responsible for the BIAB movement, he was "da Man".

Pats move to Perth was accompanied by posts along the way as he dropped in on AHB'ers :lol:


mmmyummybeer said:


> I thought the same, but was quickly informed by a few Aussie home brewers that it was in fact a UK inventions. Doesn't seem to be much definitive info though and only loose references to its beginnings, Which is a pity as it would be good to know and I was hoping it really was an Australian invention.





Ducatiboy stu said:


> He was a legand....he put up with a lot of crap but stuck to his guns. If you think his posts where long you should have been to some of the swap meets. Once he started a speech he would not stop....
> 
> I miss his long half pissed posts.


haha There were some classics eh Stu.



S.E said:


> I brewed my first all grain in the UK around 1988-89 after purchasing a grain bag, bruheat boiler (commonly known as the bucket of death on this forum)and a copy of Dave Lines Brewing Beers Like those you Buy from the LHBS. The same HBS was still selling grain bags and the Bucket of Death when I last visited about three years ago.
> 
> Just had a look at my Dave Line book and it was first published in 1978 (after his Big Book of Brewing I think). Stage 2 of every recipe in the book “Contain the mashed grain in a large grain bag to retrieve the sweet wort”.
> 
> I don’t know if BIAB was invented in Australia or not though.


Yes, I've spoken to many UK brewers who used the method back in the 1980's.



AndrewQLD said:


> It definitely wasn't invented here, but the method certainly was refined and improved here.


Definitely!!!!!


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## slcmorro (10/8/13)

William Wallace, wasn't it?


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## Hippy (10/8/13)

Pistol is still going strong on the biabbrewer sitehttp://www.biabrewer.info/index.php


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## Diesel80 (10/8/13)

I brew with a little AHB BIAB history.

I have the two bags Bribie G used to have before he went all bucket in bucket on us. Including his first bag from Nev at gryphon brewing back when he used to sell them (so the story goes), and the other I think was from CB.

If you are lurking Bribie, thanks for the bags mate, they are keeping my bathed in All Grain goodness!


back on topic. Sorry!

Cheers,
D80


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## pk.sax (10/8/13)

I thought NickJD invented both the bucket, the pot and the bag!


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## manticle (10/8/13)

AndrewQLD said:


> A fair bit of testing went into looking at efficiencies with the method including the effects of full volume mashing on final wort as opposed to sparging, mash ph at full volume, crush size and efficiency ect.From memory Dave Line used the bag more as a straining device and sparged as well.The BIAB method that Pistol Patch and many others worked on was for a full volume mash with no sparging required and the main idea was to be able to use only one vessel for the whole process rather than having multiple vessels to do the job.


Somewhere on here is a great thread where someone floats the idea of single vessel, full volume and pat and others do lots of tests and trials. Can't remember the name but it would be good to link it.


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## Ducatiboy stu (10/8/13)

practicalfool said:


> I thought NickJD invented both the bucket, the pot and the bag!


Meh....


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## Ducatiboy stu (10/8/13)

Pat deserves the credit for BIAB. His determination was fierce 

There are some posts deep in AHB of some yanks not beleiving it was posssble and in the end they believed it to be the best thing in brewing.


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## Crusty (10/8/13)

If you check out the podcast on beersmith about BIAB featuring Pat, a brewer on this forum called James Squire asked the question of why can't we brew in one vessel & it says he was the first electric Biaber in an urn. ( 7:20 into the podcast )
It really took off from there.


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## manticle (10/8/13)

That's the thread I mentioned earlier crusty. Any likelihood of a link or suggested search term? Active discussions like that one are what made AHB great.


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## Crusty (10/8/13)

Here's the podcast.


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## AndrewQLD (10/8/13)

manticle said:


> That's the thread I mentioned earlier crusty. Any likelihood of a link or suggested search term? Active discussions like that one are what made AHB great.


This is the very first thread that was started by James Squire, it grew from there.

A Guide to All grain brewing in a bag is a pinned thread in the All grain forum created by Pistol himself, most everything to do with BIAB developement is in there somewhere.


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## manticle (10/8/13)

That's the one AQ.
Some great discussions in there as people tease out the reality from the various bits of theory.

I also remember Thirsty Boy doing a great job of promoting the method on the BN forum.


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## S.E (10/8/13)

AndrewQLD said:


> A fair bit of testing went into looking at efficiencies with the method including the effects of full volume mashing on final wort as opposed to sparging, mash ph at full volume, crush size and efficiency ect.
> From memory Dave Line used the bag more as a straining device and sparged as well.
> The BIAB method that Pistol Patch and many others worked on was for a full volume mash with no sparging required and the main idea was to be able to use only one vessel for the whole process rather than having multiple vessels to do the job.


Not sure how Dave Line brewed in the BB of Brewing but in beers like those you buy one of the methods he recommends is the Bruheat Boiler which is a single vessel for the whole process, Line describes it as a custom built boiler for brewing and said as the thermostat can be set between 10C and 100C it successfully copes with all the brewing processes of mashing, boiling *and fermenting*.

When I used the bruheat and bag I mashed almost full volume then lifted the bag above the boiler to drain supported on a broom handle between two chairs and sparged with about 2-3L of warm water from a kettle or saucepan.

I can’t remember where I got the method from though maybe the instructions that came with the Bruheat.


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## AndrewQLD (10/8/13)

S.E said:


> Not sure how Dave Line brewed in the BB of Brewing but in beers like those you buy one of the methods he recommends is the Bruheat Boiler which is a single vessel for the whole process, Line describes it as a custom built boiler for brewing and said as the thermostat can be set between 10C and 100C it successfully copes with all the brewing processes of mashing, boiling *and fermenting*.
> 
> When I used the bruheat and bag I mashed almost full volume then lifted the bag above the boiler to drain supported on a broom handle between two chairs and sparged with about 2-3L of warm water from a kettle or saucepan.
> 
> I can’t remember where I got the method from though maybe the instructions that came with the Bruheat.


I have both of Dave Lines books, he was a pioneer of brewing and my first all grain beer came from "Brewing beers like those you buy", I wasn't suggesting that the method had never been done before only that there was never any real in depth detail on the pocess and the effects full volume mashing would have on a recipe.
The testing that was done here on AHB resulted in a proven method of all grain brewing that is just as good as any other system used today.
Previously the method was considered a great way to get started in the hobby and most people assumed that a 3 v system would give better results as a whole and as such they moved on. It seems that now more people are happy to remain a BIABer because the system is just as good as any other.


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## Camo6 (10/8/13)

S.E said:


> Interesting, in what way was it refined and improved?



Drawstrings.


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## Bizier (10/8/13)

Pat is a certified champ.
Occasionally he needs a real brewer to tell him how beer is made. 
Hi Pat if you are reading


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## S.E (10/8/13)

AndrewQLD said:


> I have both of Dave Lines books, he was a pioneer of brewing and my first all grain beer came from "Brewing beers like those you buy", I wasn't suggesting that the method had never been done before only that there was never any real in depth detail on the pocess and the effects full volume mashing would have on a recipe.
> The testing that was done here on AHB resulted in a proven method of all grain brewing that is just as good as any other system used today.
> Previously the method was considered a great way to get started in the hobby and most people assumed that a 3 v system would give better results as a whole and as such they moved on. It seems that now more people are happy to remain a BIABer because the system is just as good as any other.


Reading through the threads linked in posts above there certainly was a lot of testing done on AHB but I would be surprised if the Bruheat and Electrim BIAB systems hadn’t been tested before they were marketed in the UK.

[SIZE=11pt]To be fair I don’t think it was the testing on AHB that resulted in BIAB as proven method of all grain brewing, as it has been for many years and remains a common method of home brewing in the UK. [/SIZE]


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## S.E (10/8/13)

Camo6 said:


> Drawstrings.


[SIZE=11pt]It would seem so but I was genuinely interested in how such a simple method could be improved.[/SIZE]


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## AndrewQLD (10/8/13)

S.E said:


> [SIZE=11pt]It would seem so but I was genuinely interested in how such a simple method could be improved.[/SIZE]


Considering this method was virtually unheard of here in Australia, and America by the sounds of things for that matter, I would have thought that the information resource that has been gathered here on ahb and also the BIAB forum is a vast improvement on the information that was available before.
We are also lucky enough to have an AHB member who developed brewing software specifically for and because of the BIAB testing that was done here. I'd have thought that an improvement.

I guess we are a bit provicial and behind the times here which is why we were not fully aware of it's popularity in the U.K, and yes it is a simple method but it took the work of Pistol and associates to really bring it to the fore and convince brewers here that it would work well.


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## manticle (10/8/13)

We also invented the pie.




And lamb chops.


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## Camo6 (10/8/13)

I started all grain brewing with BIAB. Was directed to the Biabrewer forum from this one. Followed all the beginners guides and calculators that Pistol Patch et al had worked hard on and hit all my numbers the very first batch.
Maybe they hadn't pioneered BIAB but they sure refined it and made it not only a painless entry level method into AG but a thoroughly researched and independent method in it's own right. Still remember the taste of my first biab (amarillo pale ale) and wondered how I'd wasted so much time with kits.
God bless you Patch. May your bag never burst.


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## nu_brew (10/8/13)

+ 1 this story except I got referred to Biabrewer from a demo at G&G



Camo6 said:


> I started all grain brewing with BIAB. Was directed to the Biabrewer forum from this one. Followed all the beginners guides and calculators that Pistol Patch et al had worked hard on and hit all my numbers the very first batch.
> Maybe they hadn't pioneered BIAB but they sure refined it and made it not only a painless entry level method into AG but a thoroughly researched and independent method in it's own right. Still remember the taste of my first biab (amarillo pale ale) and wondered how I'd wasted so much time with kits.
> God bless you Patch. May your bag never burst.


I did NRB's All Amarillo Ale first up and was blown away.


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## warra48 (10/8/13)

I'm a failure.
I've never done a BIAB.

AHB, forgive me for my past and future sins as I continue with my 3V method.

I've been at Bribie G's and see him do a brew in about 2/3rd the time it takes me with my 3V and chiller method, so there's definitely some positives to BIAB along with No Chill.


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## Camo6 (10/8/13)

nu_brew said:


> + 1 this story except I got referred to Biabrewer from a demo at G&G
> 
> 
> I did NRB's All Amarillo Ale first up and was blown away.


I know right! I was all like:


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## Ducatiboy stu (10/8/13)

warra48 said:


> I'm a failure.
> I've never done a BIAB.


well...looks like you are not a real brewer.....oh wait...neither am I


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## Ducatiboy stu (10/8/13)

We could do a BIAB vs 3v...



Oh....wait......Stu that would be a dumb idea


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## Bizier (10/8/13)

Camo6 said:


> I started all grain brewing with BIAB. Was directed to the Biabrewer forum from this one. Followed all the beginners guides and calculators that Pistol Patch et al had worked hard on and hit all my numbers the very first batch.Maybe they hadn't pioneered BIAB but they sure refined it and made it not only a painless entry level method into AG but a thoroughly researched and independent method in it's own right. Still remember the taste of my first biab (amarillo pale ale) and wondered how I'd wasted so much time with kits.God bless you Patch. May your bag never burst.


I'll step forward and admit that BIAB got me off the kits early in the piece and allowed me to brew AG out of an apartment and it literally changed my life. I'll credit Pat for at least being the evangelist of a simpler way.


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## Camo6 (10/8/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> We could do a BIAB vs 3v...
> 
> 
> 
> Oh....wait......Stu that would be a dumb idea








"_C'mon._ Do it Stu. You know you want to."


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## Ducatiboy stu (10/8/13)

Not sure about re-hydrating that argument....I feel I could be sprinkling a dry argument


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## simplefisherman (10/8/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Not sure about re-hydrating that argument....I feel I could be sprinkling a dry argument


Yep there's enough arguement in the pack already ffs.... Hic


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## Robbo2234 (10/8/13)

Lecterfan said:


> Actually the earliest reference was found in some of the medieval writings of the famous scholar St. Grogginus, often known as the arse-faced monk (for reasons best not discussed here). It is believed that St. Grogginus was one of the first of the scholastics to shift away from the Aristotelian-infleunced/neo-Platonic Christian metaphysic in favour of brewing heavily hopped West Coast IPAs. Although the translations are contentious, the academically accepted translation of _Reflections of a God Fearing Man upon the brewing of a Shit-Hot IPA by the Grace of the Almighty_ (circa 1472) by Booby & Bumspittle is rendered thus:
> 
> "...and lo upon reflection, it seemeth to me - as lazy a man as God hath ever created - that I could be rid of this horrid pale blue 70 litre icebox which doth plague me with it's presence and causeth much grief to me without an adjustable twin roller mill and simply use my night-dress as a primitive filter to containeth my grains..." (pg. 156)
> 
> ...



champagne comedy! ******* classic


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## dagryll (11/8/13)

Thanks all for addressing the question with such ... gusto. Sounds like this Pat chap needs an OAM. I had no idea it was such a recent revolution either. I would have thought people did similar things in the past with muslin, or cheese cloth.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/8/13)

dagryll said:


> Thanks all for addressing the question with such ... gusto. Sounds like this Pat chap needs an OAM. I had no idea it was such a recent revolution either. I would have thought people did similar things in the past that muslins did with sheep


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## Bizier (11/8/13)

Muslin countries are very strainge.






Please don't anyone follow this with a racist joke.


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## wbosher (11/8/13)

manticle said:


> We also invented the pie.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We invented pavlova...and Phar Lap is ours... h34r:

But back OT. I remember posting a question on Pats BIAB website expecting a nice, easy, short reply. Pat came back with a 200 word essay. :lol:


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/8/13)

wbosher said:


> ONLY 200 WORDS.....Tiny esay for him


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## wbosher (11/8/13)

It probably was a lot more than 200 words, filled up two or thee screens. :lol: MASSIVE help though for anything BIAB related, and I think his site is a must read for anyone getting into BIAB.


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## Black Devil Dog (11/8/13)

On some American forums, it's referred to as "the Aussie BIAB method". 

The poms might have soaked a blanket or the like in some turbid water, but it took brilliant Australian ingenuity to develop this concept into something that will bring happiness and prosperity to the everyone in the world. 

Won't be long and NZ will be claiming it as theirs.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/8/13)

Pretty sure Pat wasnt born in un zed


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## wbosher (11/8/13)

Yeah but the great great grandfather of the brother in law of the owner of the dog who's breeder was related to the maker of the first BIAB bag may have been a Kiwi...that makes BIAB ours.


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## S.E (12/8/13)

AndrewQLD said:


> Considering this method was virtually unheard of here in Australia, and America by the sounds of things for that matter, I would have thought that the information resource that has been gathered here on ahb and also the BIAB forum is a vast improvement on the information that was available before.
> We are also lucky enough to have an AHB member who developed brewing software specifically for and because of the BIAB testing that was done here. I'd have thought that an improvement.
> 
> I guess we are a bit provicial and behind the times here which is why we were not fully aware of it's popularity in the U.K, and yes it is a simple method but it took the work of Pistol and associates to really bring it to the fore and convince brewers here that it would work well.


Fair enough. I didn’t mean to be disrespectful to Pistolpatch or his associates, anything that promotes an affordable and easy way to help get people started in brewing is good.

I don’t understand why they had trouble convincing brewers here that it would work though, early all grain writers like Dave Line and C.J.J Berry wrote about and illustrated the method in their books are these books only recently available in Australia? Or what books were available pre AHB?

It doesn’t completely surprise me though that pistol had trouble convincing some brewers here that such a simple and cost effective method could be employed. I suggested that cubes could take a fair amount of pressure and can be used as casks (Dave Line also used semi rigid polythene cubes) but a few members on here got very upset by that and insisted that beer should only be dispensed from kegs under hydraulic pressure.

To my mind BIAB and cask conditioning go hand in hand and are a great way to get started. You don’t need a 3v system to brew or a keg system if you want to avoid the tedious task of bottling.

Who knows maybe I will go down in AHB history as the inventor of cask conditioned ale.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/8/13)

Welcome to AHB where the earth is flat, our yeast is re-hydrated and beer may only be dispensed from kegs....


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## AndrewQLD (12/8/13)

S.E said:


> Fair enough. I didn’t mean to be disrespectful to Pistolpatch or his associates, anything that promotes an affordable and easy way to help get people started in brewing is good.
> 
> I don’t understand why they had trouble convincing brewers here that it would work though, early all grain writers like Dave Line and C.J.J Berry wrote about and illustrated the method in their books are these books only recently available in Australia? Or what books were available pre AHB?
> 
> ...


I don't think so, I'm pretty sure they've been doing that for years in England. :lol:


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## S.E (12/8/13)

AndrewQLD said:


> I don't think so, I'm pretty sure they've been doing that for years in England. :lol:


Oh well there goes my claim to fame. I moved to Ireland when I was a boy and have a vague memory of seeing a neighbour with a net curtain containing barley. After he died we found a poteen still in his shed so maybe BIAB started with Irish poteen distillers.


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## mje1980 (12/8/13)

Maybe the thread topic should be changed to "who refined BIAB?". Because though pistol may indeed have brought BIAB a very long way, and credit to him, it seems pretty clear that brewers have been using bags for quite a long time. Regardless of how less "fancy" it may be, they have still been doing it a lot longer than Aussie h'brewers.


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## S.E (12/8/13)

mje1980 said:


> Maybe the thread topic should be changed to "who refined BIAB?". Because though pistol may indeed have brought BIAB a very long way, and credit to him, it seems pretty clear that brewers have been using bags for quite a long time. Regardless of how less "fancy" it may be, they have still been doing it a lot longer than Aussie h'brewers.


Well you might as well just change it to “Aussie h'brewers refined BIAB” and be done with it.


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## citizensnips (12/8/13)

considering the teabag was invented over 100 years ago my guess would say there's every chance someone out there was doing a shittier less refined version of biab a michael long time ago


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## S.E (12/8/13)

Actually Mark thinking about it your title is better, then if any other nationality refines BIAB further the thread can be up dated accordingly.


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## S.E (12/8/13)

citizensnips said:


> considering the teabag was invented over 100 years ago my guess would say there's every chance someone out there was doing a shittier less refined version of biab a michael long time ago


Disposable BIAB bag, now there’s a thought.


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## Lecterfan (12/8/13)

...to put it into further context though, these threads and those early AHB innovators weren't just saying 'hey let's plonk some grain in some bags', they were interested in the outcomes of a very high water to grain ration (by comparison to the established norm/literature/'trad' German brewing methods), the effects on pH, extraction of tannins, the availability and ability of certain enzymes in this type of mash, the long term stability of flavour compounds, head retention etc of the excessively murky wort and so on.

As someone who lurked on AHB but was more active as a kit and partial brewer elsewhere, AHB was always the bastion of (seemingly) knowledgeable all grain brewers who were talking all kinds of craziness about 'salts' and 'pH' and sprinkling German words throughout their posts.

Not saying that this wasn't discussed elsewhere (although it's not in the Dave Line book - a ripper that I've read many times), and given the number of 'grandmas curtain' and 'pillowcase' jokes it is important to remember that 3V or 2V were enormously popular methods - probably overwhelmingly so in terms of the available literature...brew magazines coming from America, brewing traditions from Europe etc etc etc.

BIAB is not an Aussie 'invention' by any stretch, but in terms of direct comparisons to more traditional grain brewing methods in areas that could be considered reasonably 'advanced' by many, the people involved in those threads and this site (and probably heaps of them behind the scenes in the 'real' world) seems to be where a lot of the work was done to dispel myths beyond mere anecdotal 'well it tastes alright to me'.

Again, this was probably all talked about in brew clubs and by brew nerds the world over, but it was all played out in public here by very enthusiastic, engaged and knowledgeable brewers.

My 2c.


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## AndrewQLD (12/8/13)

Wish I could have spent my 2c as eloquently Lecterfan, that sums it up beautifully.


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## mje1980 (12/8/13)

But how do you know the uk brewers weren't thinking or doing the same thing all those years ago? Do you have evidence of that or just assuming?. If it has been done for so long there, I can't imagine they'd just be throwing a random amount of grain into a random amount of water and hoping for the best surely?. What makes you think someone only a few years ago was the first to think out calculations regarding bitterness efficiency etc?. I'm honestly curious


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## Lecterfan (12/8/13)

Lecterfan said:


> Not saying that this wasn't discussed elsewhere
> BIAB is not an Aussie 'invention' by any stretch, but in terms of direct comparisons to more traditional grain brewing methods in areas that could be considered reasonably 'advanced' by many, the people involved in those threads and this site (and probably heaps of them behind the scenes in the 'real' world) *seems* to be where a lot of the work was done to dispel myths beyond mere anecdotal 'well it tastes alright to me'.
> 
> Again, this was probably all talked about in brew clubs and by brew nerds the world over, .


Not saying it wasn't - just that the reason a lot of American sites seem to credit it as an Aussie thing is that it seemed to play out in public here. See the last sentence of my above quote. In fact it is a safe bet that a cloth-cap wearing, tweed jacketed, leather elbow patched, pipe smoking, extravagantly moustachioed fan of real ale in the UK actually DID do it all 40 years ago...just no one put it on the internet and told the Americans about it haha

edit - in terms of evidence I have none as it is merely conjecture in reply to why it seems to be labelled an Aussie phenomenon. Cheers. :icon_cheers:


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## citizensnips (12/8/13)

With that said, I don't understand why we would turn down the honour of inventing something when all the methods and information given out and practised all over the world today were originally nutted out here, why give someone else the credit when they hid in their back shed with for all we know a hessian sack dunked in water and told no one about it. Doesn't make sense to me.


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## mje1980 (12/8/13)

Lecterfan, I agree, and is kind of what I was thinking. I don't want to take any credit from pistol as he has put a lot of time and effort into sharing his info and work.


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## mje1980 (12/8/13)

citizensnips said:


> With that said, I don't understand why we would turn down the honour of inventing something when all the methods and information given out and practised all over the world today were originally nutted out here, why give someone else the credit when they hid in their back shed with for all we know a hessian sack dunked in water and told no one about it. Doesn't make sense to me.


This post doesn't make sense to me. Turn down the honour of claiming something we didn't invent?!


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## citizensnips (12/8/13)

I'm saying people like Pistol should be recognised as the *creators* of the modern day BIAB method. You can tell who ever you want some guy may have done a similar method in his shed some time ago so give him the praise but at the end of the day they sure as hell didn't put in the effort creating, testing, developing and most importantly sharing the information like people such as Pistol did.


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## Fatgodzilla (12/8/13)

Who invented the wheel? Religion? Boats? The mash tun? Queensland?

makes no difference.

Just right to say Pistol is the modern father of BIAB. He championed the cause and made it the very good avenue to brewing for many modern Australians and those otherlings from OS who have also seen a light and followed it.

God bless your Pistol and I'm glad you stopped sending me all those bad jokes and late night rants - though it did make AHB more interesting a few years ago!


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/8/13)

Indeed it did.....Some of pats posts required several beers to get thru them.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/8/13)

Indeed it did.....Some of pats posts required several beers to get thru them.


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## Fatgodzilla (12/8/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Indeed it did.....Some of pats posts required several beers to get thru them.



and a packed lunch ...


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## sinkas (14/8/13)

Pistol Patch,
east fremantle WA,
he has a dedicated website www.biabrewer.info


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## anthonyUK (14/8/13)

As someone who was on the verge of giving up due to lack of quality with kit brewing and thinking AG was too complicated I am forever grateful to people such as PP and Bribie who championed the cause and demystified the BIAB process. As far as I can tell from the UK, the modern BIAB scene was derived in Oz.


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/8/13)

Vindicated..hell, we lost the Ashes so we may as well claim BIAB


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## MastersBrewery (14/8/13)

I think in the same context John Palmer didn't invent brewing but few would argue the impact he and his books has had on the modern home brewer.


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## PistolPatch (18/8/13)

Hey there fellas :icon_cheers: ,

Received a heads up on this thread yesterday and have enjoyed the read. Thanks very much for remembering me. I do really appreciate it and wish that teleporting was the go so as I could drop in and have a beer with a few of you that have posted here but I haven't seen for ages since moving states etc. Still looking forward to another QLD Swap and, hopefully one day, the Sydney Pub Crawl.

Regarding the question asked in this thread, I think a few of the original 'BIAB' threads/posts have already been posted. This one was meant to be continually updated to give the right people the right credit but around that time, the ability to edit posts was discontinued. Many people helped or contributed to BIAB. James Squire asked the right question for a start. Ross told me the material to get. AndrewQLD did a full volume mash on his traditional equipment. This encouraged me to do a few single vessel tests. hashie and jimmysuperlative read and advised me on a lot of material I initially wrote and they still help me now. mimeryberg was another really helpful brewer and he's from Germany if I remember rightly. Screwtop did come up with the BIAB name and many others were super helpful or valuable.

There's probably a few myths that need dispelling in this "history" thread. The first myth is that everyone was against BIAB, especially three-vessel brewers. That isn't true at all. Almost all of the original encouragement and investigation of BIAB came from existing three-vessel brewers. In those days the culture here was open-minded and investigative which was great. A year or so later the culture changed a bit and went through some quite wild stages but very few members here with any credibility made any attempts to discourage BIAB. Some of those people though did cost the whole site a lot of time and trouble, so much so, that I think quite a few people gave up on the site. I personally haven't even read here for a very long time. I am _really_ pleased to see that this thread has 79 posts all of which are constructive, positive or humourous. I honestly thought those days were over. Very nice to see :icon_cheers:.

The next problem in this thread probably is a terminology one. As alluded to here already, BIAB, to us here on AHB at least, was more about single vessel, full-volume mashing than brewing in a bag. Was David Line's stuff focused on that? I'd love to know more on this - seriously. From the posts above, it sounds like, some of it at least, was.

*What I've been working on...*

I know some of you guys wanted an old-style PP essay. Who am I not to oblige? 

Pretty much all of the the work I have been doing over the last few years on BIABrewer.info has been spent on the most basic building blocks of brewing. I never envisioned how hard this would be or how long it would take.

...

Apologies. I did actually have a whole essay written just above on terminology, software, formulas and people and just lost the whole lot. You might be able to imagine how I'm feeling about losing that. (Sorry stux, you had a mention there.)

...

Anyway, thanks once again for the thinking of me,
Pat


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## Bizier (19/8/13)

Cheers Pat, you are always welcome. Post was a little short though.


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## S.E (19/8/13)

PistolPatch said:


> Hey there fellas :icon_cheers: ,
> 
> Received a heads up on this thread yesterday and have enjoyed the read. Thanks very much for remembering me. I do really appreciate it and wish that teleporting was the go so as I could drop in and have a beer with a few of you that have posted here but I haven't seen for ages since moving states etc. Still looking forward to another QLD Swap and, hopefully one day, the Sydney Pub Crawl.
> 
> ...


Hi Pat

Thanks for dropping in and clearing up those points. Regarding your question on Dave Line’s method he illustrates 3 methods of mashing. 1 “using a boiling pan or Dixie”. 2 “using brewing boiler” (the purpose built single vessel Bruheat or Thorn Electrim Bin). 3 “Floating Mash Tun”.

In C.J.J Berry’s Home Brewed Beers & Stouts one of the methods described and illustrated is using the Bruheat single vessel. The main difference with your method seems to be the no sparge.

Line and Berry both sparged. Berry sparged by supporting the grain bag on a rod between the sink and a chair then sprayed with hot water from a watering can, he showed an alternative way of sparging using a sieve and jug.

Cheers Sean


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## S.E (19/8/13)

Here are some pics of UK brewing equipment I picked up from car boot sales before I left. The Electrim Bin is a single vessel Kettle/Mash tun with a thermostat.


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## mash head (19/8/13)

Who invented it? Who cares and who will ever really know But Pat and others here definitely brought the technique to the masses and for that they deserve credit. I am sure the LHBS wouldn't be doing half the business if it weren't for BIABers.
Either way I would like to thank Pat and others for promoting the technique. If I hadn't found this forum years ago I would still be trying to refine a complicated 3v system and not concentrating on the important issues of getting my recipe right. It showed me a very cheep entry level into all grain brewing that I was looking for at the time and I havnt looked back (except for the odd experiment with a kit).


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## Yob (19/8/13)

PistolPatch said:


> Hey there fellas :icon_cheers: ,
> 
> ....
> 
> ...



Ive got the Big Book of Brewing at home, I'll grab it tonight and scan a couple of the relevant pages. From memory it like a Birko setup or some such...

regardless, cudos on all the experimentation and refinement is certainly due to yourself and those you also mention..

:icon_cheers:


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## S.E (19/8/13)

Yob said:


> Ive got the Big Book of Brewing at home, I'll grab it tonight and scan a couple of the relevant pages. From memory it like a Birko setup or some such...
> 
> regardless, cudos on all the experimentation and refinement is certainly due to yourself and those you also mention..
> 
> :icon_cheers:


The Dave line book I have is “Brewing Beers Like Those You Buy” not The Big Book Of Brewing that he wrote earlier so I don’t know what he used in Big Book Of Brewing.

Unless I have missed something else the only refinement is skipping the step of raising the grain bag above the brew pot and sparging with a few litres of water.

The main contribution I think Pat has made is writing a lot of information on this old home brew method and spreading the word on the internet making it easily available.


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/8/13)

Mmmmmm..Bucket of Death


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## S.E (19/8/13)

Brewing Bruheat bitter, C.J.J Berry.

View attachment scan0001.pdf


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## S.E (19/8/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Mmmmmm..Bucket of Death


Yep. I was going to post a pic of this years ago when I read a Bucket o Death thread but decided it wasn’t worth the headache of replying to all that were so against the idea. It’s just like a large electric kettle with a tap instead of a pouring spout (and an adjustable thermostat).


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## Howlingdog (19/8/13)

Both "The Big Book of Brewing" and "Brewing Beers Like You Buy" are available from the BABB's library for members. However, as they are over 10 years old they are not brought to meetings unless requested. If BABB's members want these books please email the librarian before the meeting.

HD


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## PistolPatch (20/8/13)

Bizier said:


> Cheers Pat, you are always welcome. Post was a little short though.


  Lol! Thanks Biz. I should have left that post for Monday I think. Had already written a lot on Sunday and by the time I got to here had rewarded myself with a few beers. Lucky I lost half the post - interesting stuff for me but probably would have bored the hell out of everyone else :blink:.

Thanks for the other posts too  and for the further info on the UK methods - much appreciated. Some great pics and posts there Sean. Is it correct to say that all these methods recommended some sort of 'active' sparge?

:icon_cheers:
Pat


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## S.E (22/8/13)

Yes Pat that is correct, some sort of sparge was always recommended. I either pulled the bag out of the Electrim Bin hung it over my fermenter and drained the wort through the grain, set the thermostat and heated the sparge water in the Electrim. Or Just lifted the grain bag above the Electrim and sparged with water heated in a saucepan. So technically I suppose it wasn’t a single vessel system as a separate fermenter or saucepane was needed.

With your system did you mash at full volume then remove the grain bag and proceed to boil without sparging or recirculating?

Cheers Sean


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## AndrewQLD (22/8/13)

S.E said:


> Yes Pat that is correct, some sort of sparge was always recommended. I either pulled the bag out of the Electrim Bin hung it over my fermenter and drained the wort through the grain, set the thermostat and heated the sparge water in the Electrim. Or Just lifted the grain bag above the Electrim and sparged with water heated in a saucepan. So technically I suppose it wasn’t a single vessel system as a separate fermenter or saucepane was needed.
> 
> With your system did you mash at full volume then remove the grain bag and proceed to boil without sparging or recirculating?
> 
> Cheers Sean


I think your getting bogged down with the "who invented BIAB" question, it's been agreed by just about everyone posting here that Australia didn't invent mashing using a bag.
I am pretty sure this post here answered your question above.


> A fair bit of testing went into looking at efficiencies with the method including the effects of full volume mashing on final wort as opposed to sparging, mash ph at full volume, crush size and efficiency ect.
> From memory Dave Line used the bag more as a straining device and sparged as well.
> The BIAB method that Pistol Patch and many others worked on was for a full volume mash with no sparging required and the main idea was to be able to use only one vessel for the whole process rather than having multiple vessels to do the job.


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## S.E (22/8/13)

AndrewQLD said:


> I think your getting bogged down with the "who invented BIAB" question, it's been agreed by just about everyone posting here that Australia didn't invent mashing using a bag.
> I am pretty sure this post here answered your question above.


I’m not getting bogged down with the "who invented BIAB" question at all though it hasn’t been established that Australia didn't invent mashing using a bag, no one posting so far knows where it was first used. It may well have been Australia.

I was answering Pats Question regarding sparging, and also pointing out that the UK method was not actually single vessel as a separate fermenter or saucepan was required.

As far as I can see the only difference is the no sparge. I am having trouble getting my head around what the advantage of not sparging is though.

Cheers Sean


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## mje1980 (22/8/13)

dagryll said:


> I've read elsewhere that BIAB was invented in Australia. Does anyone know its origins? How long ago did you first hear about it? I'm thinking it probably developed out of the Bew-In-A-Dustbin method, but wondering if any old-timers out there have any info on this.


I don't think S.E is getting bogged down. More like contributing some pretty useful info relating to this thread.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (22/8/13)

S.E said:


> I am having trouble getting my head around what the advantage of not sparging is though.
> 
> Cheers Sean


Simplicity I think. And I think that's where Pat's contribution is being lauded in this instance - because he bothered to do the prototyping and research to convert an older English method into a newer, more measurable method, that fits the 'single vessel' mould. The no-sparge thing is (and I'm not a no-sparger) is designed to minimise time and effort and the bottleneck where a stuff up could occur.


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## AndrewQLD (22/8/13)

Possibly I am misunderstanding the several last posts that you have made S.E, it just seems that you continually reference books that you have referenced 4 pages ago and I took that as you trying to "prove" that BIAB was invented in England, and as I said above we all pretty much agree with that.
Apologies for misunderstanding.


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## PistolPatch (23/8/13)

S.E said:


> Yes Pat that is correct, some sort of sparge was always recommended.


Thanks for your reply Sean. I think this is the real key and is the point that Andrew was hoping to highlight.

Like so much of brewing terminology, the term, 'brew in a bag,' in hindsight, is quite ambiguous. While BIAB has a nice ring to it, a far better description would be something ridiculously long like, "Full volume mashing with a passive sparge in a single hard vessel". The key feature of the BIAB we originally intended is that the sparge is what can be regarded as a passive one - it is done at the same time as the mash and for this reason, only one vessel and one heat source is needed.

This leads on to...



S.E said:


> As far as I can see the only difference is the no sparge. I am having trouble getting my head around what the advantage of not sparging is though.


Being able to remove two 'hard' vessels and one, sometimes two, heat sources as well as a pump or two gravity tiers is a major convenience of course. I think however you might be thinking that there is some sort of disadvantage in not doing an active sparge. One thing that many people believe is that not doing an active sparge will somehow lower your kettle efficiency. It doesn't. On simultaneous side by sides i identical kettles we have found no difference. Assuming time, temp, pH etc are the same, the key to kettle efficiency is actually how much water comes into contact with the grain rather than when it comes into contact.

The concept of an active sparge not being necessary can be a hard thing to come to grips with psychologically. In some ways it does not seem intuitive. For example, when we wash our clothes in the washing machine, the 100 litres or so that is used in the wash is split between a wash (mash) cycle and then several rinses (sparge) and spins (lauters). Why? Well, if all 100 litres were used at the start, the washing machine and its motor would need to be massive. In brewing, we have the same cycles except our spin cycle is nothing like the aggressive spin of a washing machine, it is just a slow drain. If your clothes washing machine just had a slow drain, your clothes (grain) will be cleaned just as well whether you add the water in one hit or in stages.

All this means that over the last few years, we've done a lot of work (stus did heaps) on creating formulas that auto-estimate your kettle efficiency for you. These work for both BIAB and traditional brewing. You can see this auto-efficiency formula working in the pre-release version of the BIABacus which also includes lots of other auto-estimates such as trub and evaporation to make things super easy. The file is only in a spreadsheet form but playing with it over a beer or two should enable you to see some of these interesting features working. (I think you still have to register to get that file but that only takes a sec.)

One final thing that might be worth noting is that there is a big diferene between the brewing technique of "no-sparging" and that of pure BIAB which is "passive sparging". The best way I have of explaining this is in this series of 'Sweet Liquor Shop' posts...

Sweet Liquor Shop 1
Sweet Liquor Shop 2
Sweet Liquor Shop 3

I think those three posts might help here a lot. Fingers crossed ,
Pat


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## Pickaxe (23/8/13)

Lecterfan said:


> AHB was always the bastion of (seemingly) knowledgeable all grain brewers who were talking all kinds of craziness about 'salts' and 'pH' and sprinkling German words throughout their posts.


Sounds like a haven for nazi war criminals trying to replicate das nectar of das Fatherland!

*Tausend Jahre Reinheitsgebot!!!!!!!!*


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## MastersBrewery (25/8/13)

woah, another top post PP, I never did go over all the original BIAB posts, my first all grain I followed Nicks guide. I never really got down to the nitty gritty of how and why, hell it made beer! That first DSGA was awesome. As I had already had started collecting bits and pieces for my rig, I just went along my merry way. I now have a full blown 3V cappable of doubles with pumps and chiller, after 8 batches with this I find I'm still dialing in and fine tuning some things.

Has me wondering: time, space, cleaning, ease of consistency, maybe I should have done what Crusty did and just got a crown Urn h34r:


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## Screwtop (25/8/13)

mash head said:


> Who invented it? Who cares and who will ever really know But Pat and others here definitely brought the technique to the masses and for that they deserve credit. I am sure the LHBS wouldn't be doing half the business if it weren't for BIABers.
> Either way I would like to thank Pat and others for promoting the technique. If I hadn't found this forum years ago I would still be trying to refine a complicated 3v system and not concentrating on the important issues of getting my recipe right. It showed me a very cheep entry level into all grain brewing that I was looking for at the time and I havnt looked back (except for the odd experiment with a kit).



Here here! Who cares who invented the method, if it can indeed be attributed to one person! 

When it comes to todays popularity of BIAB it is without doubt due largely to Pat's persistence and determination. While the method had it's fair share of "Nay Sayers" on this site, he persisted, results proving BIAB to be a valid method of brewing high quality all grain beer.

tasol

Screwy


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## S.E (27/8/13)

PistolPatch said:


> Thanks for your reply Sean. I think this is the real key and is the point that Andrew was hoping to highlight.
> 
> Like so much of brewing terminology, the term, 'brew in a bag,' in hindsight, is quite ambiguous. While BIAB has a nice ring to it, a far better description would be something ridiculously long like, "Full volume mashing with a passive sparge in a single hard vessel". The key feature of the BIAB we originally intended is that the sparge is what can be regarded as a passive one - it is done at the same time as the mash and for this reason, only one vessel and one heat source is needed.
> 
> ...


[SIZE=12pt]Thanks for your enthusiastic and detailed reply Pat. It sounds like your method and the way I was brewing in the Electrim bin were almost identical with the exception that I lifted the bag and sparged or rinsed the grain with about 3 litres of warm water that had been heated in a saucepan on my kitchen hob. This nominal sparge didn’t present a problem for me as I was brewing in the Kitchen and already had a saucepan to hand.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]When I said “I am having trouble getting my head around what the advantage of not sparging is” I didn’t mean I was unsure how it would work, just why it would be better than not sparging or rinsing. On reflection though and as Lord Raja Goomba pointed out it would [/SIZE]minimise time and effort, especially if you weren’t brewing near a kitchen.

Cheers Sean


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## dagryll (31/8/13)

I just noticed this thread kept going.... I should have realised biabylon would be elusive.... Thanks again, and thanks to Pistol Pat for showing up.


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## mondestrunken (31/8/13)

Lecterfan said:


> Actually the earliest reference was found in ... _Reflections of a God Fearing Man upon the brewing of a Shit-Hot IPA by the Grace of the Almighty_ (circa 1472) Wi


 

Without a doubt a classic of the brewing literature, and which is still surprisingly relevant today.


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