# Kits Or Ag Cheaper? Pros/cons?



## Acasta (6/7/10)

Hi guys,
Just wondering what generally cheaper out of Kits or AG, because i was lookng at some recipe and some AGs have come out at about 50$, eg Little Creature Pale Ale recipe, but a Kit version would be about 30-35.
Just wondering if its always more expensive? or is it just more bang for the buck?


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## Batz (6/7/10)

Acasta said:


> Hi guys,
> Just wondering what generally cheaper out of Kits or AG, because i was lookng at some recipe and some AGs have come out at about 50$, eg Little Creature Pale Ale recipe, but a Kit version would be about 30-35.
> Just wondering if its always more expensive? or is it just more bang for the buck?




Kits are cheaper Acasta, at one time you could get home brand kits cheaper still.


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## Greg Lawrence (6/7/10)

How many litres was he LCPA AG recipe you were looking at?
Doesnt sound right to me.


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## Acasta (6/7/10)

but will it make better beer?
Whats the reason to do it?


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## Nick JD (6/7/10)

If you get your grain, hops in bulk and re-use yeast some recipes are about the same with AG than kits. 

I make 23L of Aussie Lager (probably the cheapest beer to brew ... and why all the commercial breweries have convinced Aussies to drink them) for about the same as a K&K.

Cost adjusted to include flavour and taste, then AG is miles cheaper.


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## Scruffy (6/7/10)

The one that's just sparging at the moment cost me 68 bucks. 
8Kg Maris Otter ($30), 
Three packs of hops (Amarillo, Cascade and Simcoe - $28) 
and a pack of 1882 yeast ($10). 
But that'll give me 30 litres of strong, fruit salady Double Hazy IPA (about 8.5%ABV)

The second runnings (note to self - to _actually_ do it this time...!!!  ) ...will give me a half decent quaffing bitter (about 4%ABV).

$1.36 per Litre. 

Or $2.28/Litre IIPA & free breakfast beer...


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## unrealeous (6/7/10)

Nick JD said:


> If you get your grain, hops in bulk and re-use yeast some recipes are about the same with AG than kits.
> 
> I make 23L of Aussie Lager (probably the cheapest beer to brew ... and why all the commercial breweries have convinced Aussies to drink them) for about the same as a K&K.
> 
> Cost adjusted to include flavour and taste, then AG is miles cheaper.


That's assuming you don't take into account all the kit and kaboodle you'll need to collect to go All Grain. And unless you are going to brew in a bag, its a lot. A serious equipment sport. Pots, kegs, burners, hose, chillers, gas, valves, fittings, etc etc - the fun never ends... You don't go AG if you want to save money. 

But cost adjusted to include flavour and taste, the AG is miles cheaper....


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## the_yobbo (6/7/10)

Ah, interesting responses. I hadn't looked into AG and it's costs previously but I had assumed the above comments regarding AG's generally being more expensive but also has the potential for much better beer. I previously thought the more you do yourself, the cheaper it's going to be, but quickly learnt otherwise when doing my first extract brew (two tins of unhopped extract +hops rather than 1 hopped kit tin).


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## manticle (6/7/10)

Once you're set up for AG which you can do cheaply, you can get your recipes to cost around the same amount as KK. To me extract was always the most expensive brewing process.

This may include re-using/harvesting yeast, buying in bulk etc. Depending on your set-up you can do this fairly cheaply (look at stovetop BIAB for starters). Obviously high malt/expensive malt/highlu hopped brews cost more.

Which makes better beer? Depends entirely on the brewer and their processes. A good KK will beat a shit AG. However all other things being equal, a good AG will beat a good KK.


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## Scruffy (6/7/10)

It's like most things.

Analogies everywhere.

If you just want a car, you can buy a cheap car...

Granted, you can make the cheap car better, but you need to spend a bit extra. And blue neons and daft wheels won't necessarily a Ferrari make...

With AG you have full control of everything, but it is a little extra.


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## manticle (6/7/10)

And don't forget with full control comes full possibility of stuffing things up.

To make good AG is not hard but you need an understanding of the fundamentals. Fermentation is at least as important though and to make good beer of any type you need to have a good understanding of that.


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## Bribie G (6/7/10)

Home brew is a fairly cheap hobby compared to many others. If your hobby is breeding birds or restoring old Valiants then be prepared to shell out many thousands. Full Mash home brewing can be got into for hundreds. Mate was telling me that his old man just paid $2000 for a stud Canary. And you can't even eat the buggers if they don't work out


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## boobiedazzler (6/7/10)

5kg base malt = $11 (if you are buying it in 25k lots)
Specialty malts = $0 (roast your own from a portion of the 5k above)
Yeast = $1 if you recycle it
Hops= $5 for a batch if you buy in bulk

So that's $16 for an AG brew if you want to play it tight. Though getting to that position assumes you brew often, have a variety of hops on hand and have already made the initial yeast purchase. 

And does not factor in energy consumption, which is greater with AG


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## haysie (6/7/10)

BribieG said:


> Mate was telling me that his old man just paid $2000 for a stud Canary. And you can't even eat the buggers if they don't work out



They do in Greece. Nothing to do with the terrible state of their economy either.

Homebrewing is fun,challenging,hard,emotional :lol: ,enjoyable and satisfying, thats just a few. I dont give a flying what it costs as long as I enjoy it. When it all gets too expensive and I have to compare my a/g liquid yeast ocktoberfest with a carton of stubbies from the local blue moon, I`ll probably do something else, hmmmm, breed birds  and be reminisecent of all that liquid gold _I_ brewed.


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## mxd (6/7/10)

I think you'll find comments on the site about spending a lot of money to make cheap beer


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## Acasta (6/7/10)

I guess if it does produce better beer i have no problem with it. And it does seem more fun/engaging then "1. open can 2. pour can in 3. add water 4. enjoy the same beer you had last time" haha


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## matho (6/7/10)

You don't have to spend that much to get into ag 
I spent less than $300 on my brewery. That's just 6 cases of good beer

cheers matho


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## Brewme (13/7/10)

I have been making the K&K types for around 18 months now.

Was seriously thinking about going to AG.

Wanted to splurge a few dollars and get one of those HERMS systems and Millmaster and all the fancy gadgets.

After reading a few topics in this forum, I think I'll stick with my brews and enjoy them just as much as the person who spends hours of laborious tasks to achieve something he/she likes.


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## Hatchy (13/7/10)

Where are you located Brewme? I'd recommend getting along to an AG brewday to see the process (& to taste some of the beer). I thought I'd be happy to stay with extracts until I got to a few brewdays.


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## The Mad Hopper (13/7/10)

It doesn't _have_ to be expensive to get into AG. I used a couple of eskys I found lying around (one for a mash tun, one to hold sparge water - cost: $0), made a manifold from some copper at bunnings and held it into place with silicone (about $30). The only expensive part was the boiler (~$100 on ebay for a 50L aluminium pot, plus whatever a tap goes for (~$50)) and the burner (maybe about $75). Adds up to about $250. Sort of expensive, but it was fun constructing it! You could probably do it cheaper if you wanted as well (eg. several smaller pots that are just lying around and use a good gas stove). 

I think we'd all like every fancy piece of equipment out there, but you learn a lot brewing with basic equipment. And you can slowly improve your setup once you have the basics. For a batch, I can brew a simple AG for less than $30 (which is less than some of those kits with the bells and whistles go for). It wont be fancy, but it'll be good beer that my mates will drink and I have the satisfaction of knowing I controlled every step. Some people don't need that and that's fine, but I like doing it all myself.


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## Nick JD (13/7/10)

Simple Aussie Lagers are cheap as chips to make in AG. 

4kg of grain is $8.50, 20g of PoR is 50c, reused lager yeast is maybe $1 ... some sugaz is 30c. 

Cheaper than K&K.


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## The Mad Hopper (13/7/10)

Might as well splurge and spend another 4 bucks on some flavour hops. It'll bring your brew up to $14.30 though, gettin' kinda pricey! :icon_cheers:


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## Acasta (13/7/10)

where do u get your hops? i see POR for $1.10 per 10g


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## under (13/7/10)

Buy in bulk. Simple. Its the cheapest way of buying ingredients. 

Base Grain - $35-45 sack (Bulk Buy Rates)
Spec malt - By the sack if you find a recipe you like, or $5kg through the sponsors.
Reuse yeast - Yeast split into 5 batches $1 per brew, and you can reuse slurry making it cheaper. There is also yeast swaps between local brewers. 
Hops - Imported from the states. I paid $105 for 5lbs to my door

The cost is in the gear. 

KK vs AG - Well im a big fan of AG. Done right it can be as good if not better than Commercial swill. Better usually.

Keep things simple and you will produce great beer. Use adjuncts like rice/polenta/sugar and it will cut more costs and produce some bloody great drops.

My 2c


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## Kevman (14/7/10)

Interesting.

I might have to look in on a brew day and see how an AG is done. It would be good to see an AG done on a "primitive or simpler" setup rather than a bells and whistles setup. 

The only other cost that has to be factored in that people have forgotten about is time. KK takes about an hour maximum (with plenty of beer breaks). Kits and Bits takes about 1.5 to 2 hours. How long does AG take?


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## Effect (14/7/10)

Cost me $1000 to start AG.

55 litre willow mashtun with BB falsie and other parts
50 litre keggle with BB hop screen
fridge with temp controller
grain mill
coopers starter kit (for all bits and bobs)
$300 worth of base grain, specialty grain, hops and yeast
bottles
burner
gas bottle
cubes


That is a lot more expensive than brewing K n K, but I can brew higher quality and any style from the beer spectrum. If you are after cheap grog, knk is fine, ottinger is fine. But if don't like paying $16 a four pack for micro beer that is on par to the beer you can pump out - get into AG and make your own style.


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## Effect (14/7/10)

Kevman said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I might have to look in on a brew day and see how an AG is done. It would be good to see an AG done on a "primitive or simpler" setup rather than a bells and whistles setup.
> 
> The only other cost that has to be factored in that people have forgotten about is time. KK takes about an hour maximum (with plenty of beer breaks). Kits and Bits takes about 1.5 to 2 hours. How long does AG take?



my first few brew days were like 8 hours. I have got that down to 4.5 now. But you aren't active the whole time. About 2 hours of that you just walk away and relax - or do some jobs SWMBO gives you <_<


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## Sammus (14/7/10)

im sick of people quoting stupidly low prices claiming that AG is cheaper to convert new AG brewers. Yes if you buy feed malt by the tonne and bitter with second hand soapy grey water you might be able to get prices as low as some of those quoted here, but I think looking at retail (eg G&Gs or CBs) malt/hop prices (including shipping) are a much more realistic place to start when doing price comparisons.


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## petesbrew (14/7/10)

The savings really do come with buying your base malt grain by the sack - roughly half the cost compared to buying by the kilo (on a quick comparison off Daves Homebrew site @ nth Sydney)

Gearwise, it can be as simple as the Zapap bucket in bucket setup and a 19L pot from Big W. Roughly $50 worth.

Another comparison to take into account would be if you brewed a Belgian Blonde rather than a Carlton Draught clone.
Say your ingredients were $50 for 30 longnecks, that's still cheaper than buying an imported belgian (no, not stella) at $100+ per case.

edit: Honestly, once the bug's bitten for flavour, you stop wondering about the price.


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## Bribie G (14/7/10)

Nick JD said:


> Simple Aussie Lagers are cheap as chips to make in AG.
> 
> 4kg of grain is $8.50, 20g of PoR is 50c, reused lager yeast is maybe $1 ... some sugaz is 30c.
> 
> Cheaper than K&K.






Sammus said:


> im sick of people quoting stupidly low prices claiming that AG is cheaper to convert new AG brewers. Yes if you buy feed malt by the tonne and bitter with second hand soapy grey water you might be able to get prices as low as some of those quoted here, but I think looking at G&Gs or CBs malt/hop prices (including shipping) are a much more realistic place to start when doing price comparisons.



I just ordered from CB 8kg of milled Galaxy Malt to do 2 brews, have jars of 189-s to use, so my two Pale lagers I'll be doing out of the order will be (each)

4kg BB Galaxy $11.20
.3 Carapils $1.60
Kilo of Aldi rice $1.50

30g whatever hops $2.80
part value for yest batch $1.50

Electricity for boil 80c

Just shy of $20. I could use da sugaz, leave out the carapils and drop it down to around $17 but my current recipe is currently entered into the BABBs annual comp as an Aussie, and I'm going to enter it into the State as well, so from experience I'm more than confident in the quality of the beer. Add a bit more malt and a more healthy hopping rate and you have the German Pils I'm entering likewise which would come out at around $26. In my kits n bits days I would often spend on a typical Morgans effort:

Can $14
BE2 $6
US-05 say $2 as I have always run for a few generations
Aroma Hops $3

So a $25 to $30 kits bits or partials brew worked out around the same as AG. 

But as other posters say, you have to 'amortise' the initial cost of getting into it, which in my case was a $300 urn, a $40 bag and a $20 hopsock. Had all the other bits.

Edit: picking up from CB on this occasion, which helps the cost. Normally I try to get up to the 24 kilos and put in basically a grains only order with the odd hop and yeast, so that brings the freight down to around $1.50 a brew.


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## MeLoveBeer (14/7/10)

Phillip said:


> Cost me $1000 to start AG.



Agree with your points Phillip.

For me yes it was (and is) expensive to get setup for AG, however there is no reason that you need to buy everything at once and even a couple of equipment purchases can improve your brewing in the short term and also set you up for AG brewing in the future.

If it was me, I'd be breaking down the purchases as follows:

Checkpoint 1:_ Allows full size k&k or partial boils and potentially BIAB brews_
Al or SS Pot and weldless tap
burner
gas bottle
cube(s)

Checkpoint 2: _Allows 2v AG brew (heating sparge water in the kettle, storing in the cube till needed and batch sparging)_
mashtun with false bottom and tap

Checkpoint 3: _3v AG brew allowing flexibility with sparging methods_
HLT with tap

Checkpoint 4: _Allows bulk purchase of grains_
grain mill

I've only just reached checkpoint 4 and can assure you that the extra investment of time and money is absolutely worth it.


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## Muggus (14/7/10)

I've found since i've got into the swing of AG, and accumulated a few bulk items, I can knock out a simple but tasty SMASH pale ale quite cheaply:
- 4.0kg Joe White Pilsner @ $3.00/kg - $12.00
- 65g Topaz hop pellets. Australia - Crop '09 (AA 16.2%) @ $0.09/g - $5.85
- Safale US-05 Dry ale yeast 11.5g - $6.50
= $24.35 

For 24L of beer around the 5% mark at a bit of over $1/L, pretty good value. And you can split that yeast up, so it could be less if you wanted to make a larger or two batches.


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## Katherine (14/7/10)

AG is alot more FUN!


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## MarkBastard (14/7/10)

If you seriously only cared about the money you'd be probably best off buying 30 can blocks of VB when they're on special.

Home brew is never cheap from a total cost of ownership perspective if you don't enjoy it, and have to factor in an hourly rate to pay yourself to brew it.

The thing that makes it worthwhile is when you enjoy it.


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## unrealeous (14/7/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> If you seriously only cared about the money you'd be probably best off buying 30 can blocks of VB when they're on special.


If you seriously only cared about the money you'd give up drinking 

Find your passion, and let it kill you.


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## warra48 (14/7/10)

Katie said:


> AG is alot more FUN!



Oh yeah, I agree.

Don't forget the satisfaction you get from doing a brew totally from scratch, and having total control.
Designing your own recipe (ignore the style guidelines), weighing and milling the malts, manipulating your water, designing your mash and sparge schedule, making up your own hopping inputs, deciding boil length, building yeast starters to split a single pak (or harvested yeast) into several batches worth of yeasts, then deciding on your fermentation time and temperature.

For me, those things are the best bits of the hobby. The time involved is not that great, 5 to 6 hours once every 3 weeks or so. Plus, I'm retired, so time is not such a pressing issue. If I fire up the HLT at 6:00 am, I'm all done and dusted by lunchtime.

Never got that satisfaction from the few Kits and Extracts brews I did before going AG.

As for the expense, I just did deals with the family at Christmas, birthdays, and fathers' day, to get all to put in for some equipment to expand the brewery. I acquired a MillMaster, Tempmate, SS 3 piece tap, burner and adjustable regulator etc by that method.

And when you drink a beer that knocks your socks off, it gives you a glowing feeling knowing it's all your own work. 
It's not the cheapest hobby to get into, but it's still less than the money I outlay for my golf membership and twice weekly comp fees.


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## zebba (14/7/10)

I think I paid $1.80 a kilo for some pils malt in a recent bulk buy. So Nicks quote above is certainly not unrealistic.

I do question the value in including "reused" yeast in the equation (not just nick, many do it whenever this thread pops up). You don't need to be an AG brewer to reuse yeast, and many kit brewers throw out the kit yeast...

I think last brew I spent <$10 on hops, <$10 on grain and the yeast was a freebie (props to wolfy). 

But I enjoy brewing. I couldn't care about the money.


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## Fourstar (14/7/10)

Zebba said:


> But I enjoy brewing. I couldn't care about the money.



when you are paying 60 bucks for a case of little creatures and an absoulte maximum of 60 bucks on 2 cases worth of home brewed beer, any style of your choosing. you just cant lose!


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## SpillsMostOfIt (14/7/10)

A mate of mine reckons my frugality is legendary. That may be true, but even though I save money wherever I can I cannot say that I am saving money on beer. That's okay because that isn't why I brew.

I get my malt about as cheaply as I can by seeking out the best prices and using the power of buying in quantity. Sometimes I enjoy a windfall.
I'm growing my own hops, but I haven't seen a financial benefit there, yet. And, I can't get all the flavours I'm after, so will continue to buy hops. (Anyone know where I can buy an Ahtanum rhizome?  )
I buy my propane gas in 45kg lots. My gas supplier enjoys my beer.
I will occasionally re-use a yeast if the planets align, but it generally is not worth the saving for me.

But... I have an actual brewery. Turning the cedar shed up the hill into a brew-house cost a lot of money.
I tinker. Anyone with that condition knows it costs money.

Most people will have to pay (near) full price for their equipment most of the time. You will get the occasional bargain, but the fact you can say this also means you're buying/accumulating stuff. As time passes, most people who make beer find themselves buying a filter, another fridge, a keg setup, a cpbf, another fridge, a *mumble*. Failing to take that into account is almost as big a mistake as ignoring energy and sanitation costs.

I brew. I like that I brew. Buying & making kits can result in good beer and I think over time it will be cheaper, but it is not brewing. I enjoy brewing.

If you want to brew, you will find a way to pay for it. If you want to make decent beer cheaply, you can do so with tins, a fermenter and a magican and the bits can just go on the shopping list for your SO to collect with the Nescafe, potato gems and dunny roll. (I use all three.)


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## MarkBastard (14/7/10)

On another note, I've been brewing AG all year now but I had a leftover kit and so I put that down on the weekend.

It was a coopers stout kit + 500g of spec grains (steeped) + 1.5L LME + a packet of brew enhancer 2 + 20g hops.

I found the process to be extremely irritating and much harder and more stressful than AG.

I am so glad I have all that crap used now and I never intend to do kits / extracts / partials ever again. Anything that involves brewing in the kitchen f^% right off IMO.

In related news, don't try and mix brew enhancer 2 into an already thick wort. It'll turn into big chewy clumps of toffee.


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## zebba (14/7/10)

The "any style of your choosing" is the best bit. I stay up at night trying to think how I could best express a given flavour, or what unconventional flavours I think would work well together.

Of course, I'm still new to the game, so I'm wrong on those fronts as often as I'm right, but it's still great fun. And a "bad" homebrew (as in, the flavours didn't interact how I thought, or didn't "pop" like I expected, not infections!) is still better then most under $60 cases you can grab @ dans  

My case swap backup I botched royally and was grossly under gravity. It's a massive disappointment to me... Yet you could give a heinekin drinker a glass of it and they'd think it was the bees knees 


Fourstar said:


> when you are paying 60 bucks for a case of little creatures and an absoulte maximum of 60 bucks on 2 cases worth of home brewed beer, any style of your choosing. you just cant lose!


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## bum (14/7/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Anything that involves brewing in the kitchen f^% right off IMO.


 
Gotta say I agree with this completely. I recently had my first full volume AG brew day (previously had been using the old stovetop 7V system) and even though pretty much every step of the day was new to me it was much more enjoyable than tripping over my own feet in the kitchen. And I didn't have to hear from SWMBO about spilling sticky wort on her floor (or spill any at all, for that matter - how good is silicon hose?). 

For the record, I agree with whoever it was that said extract brewing is the most expensive method. Not looking at it holistically of course, in the short to medium term the new system mentioned above will make my AG beers quite pricey for the foreseeable future. 

I wouldn't worry about the lumps, Mark. The yeasties will get 'em.


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## MarkBastard (14/7/10)

Dude, the lumps were as big as golf balls. But I ended up scooping them out and hitting them with a bit of boiling water, which took care of them no problems.


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## Nick JD (14/7/10)

I used a comparison of a supermarket K&K with a simple AG Aussie Lager because that's the closest you can get recipe-wise to K&K.

Comparing a $60 ingredients list to K&K beer and saying AG is more expensive is stupid. They are not in the same league. 

Chimay and VB are the same - they're both beer...


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## bum (14/7/10)

Whoa. You invented dexballs.


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## MarkBastard (14/7/10)

bum said:


> Whoa. You invented dexballs.



From what I understand brew enhancer 2 is 50% dry malt extract, 30% malto-dextrine and 20% dextrose.


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## bum (14/7/10)

I'll put this Nobel Prize away then, shall I? Just having a laugh, bloke.


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## A3k (14/7/10)

Slightly off topic.
I think you've got to enjoy the process to get anything out of AG. If you don't enjoy it (I do) then you should also take the time into the cost equation. If i didnt enjoy it and enjoy drinking my own beer over commercial, id be better off working the extra 4-6 hours and use the money to buy beer.
But i really enjoy it, so i start thinking about it as 4-6 hours of entertainment ontop, which is pretty cheap for $30-$50 with beer.
I have made really cheap beers, but not to be cheap, but just cos it turned out like that (eg 4.5% Saison with an OG of 1.002 doesnt need much malt). But when formulating a recipe, i think about the recipe and just buy it. The 4-6 hours and then enjoyment would be what id worry about over the cash.

Cheers, and hope i didn't sound like a knob,
Al

[edit] Not talking about setup here.


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## MarkBastard (14/7/10)

What I mean is I'd like to know if anyone else has seen this when working with say dry malt extract.

I've never used dry malt extract before. I always used liquid when I did partials / extracts.

Oh, and another annoying thing is dealing with the sticky mess involved with LME and kits! horrible.

BIAB in an Urn + silicone hose + no chill is so damn easy in every aspect it's not funny.


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## bum (14/7/10)

I've never had the problem to the extent you describe but I have read of things like people chucking solid blocks of BE2 in and having no noticeable adverse effects.


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## Kieren (14/7/10)

bum said:


> Gotta say I agree with this completely. I recently had my first full volume AG brew day (previously had been using the old stovetop 7V system) and even though pretty much every step of the day was new to me it was much more enjoyable than tripping over my own feet in the kitchen. And I didn't have to hear from SWMBO about spilling sticky wort on her floor (or spill any at all, for that matter - how good is silicon hose?).



I have been AG brewing in my kitchen for the last couple of years, no outside area/shed to brew in. Just have to be wary of the hazards of having a NASA burner cranking in the kitchen. Limitations - hard to hook up a chiller - so I no chill, can get messy. I don't have a misses to b*tch and moan though 

Back on topic - agree with what's been said
-generally cheaper once your all set up, equipment wise
-brew to enjoy the process and the result, not necassarily because it's cheaper.
-if you can afford the extra time, go AG and you won't look back


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## dago001 (14/7/10)

Cost me about $200 to go all grain. $105 for a 50 litre stainless pot, had an esky, acquired a stainless valve and made some stainless all thread (I'm a plumber by trade). Had a 15 litre pot from brewing extracts. Built my own grain mill at work. 3 ring burner $50.00. Bought a hose and fitting for the burner and the bloke at the plumbing shop forgot to charge for the med pressure regulator. Don't use a false bottom, just use my old swiss voile - so I suppose I'm doing a 2v BIAB. 
I went from k&b to extract in 3 brews. 6 months later did a partial and thought if I was going to go to all the time that it takes I might as well go all grain.
Bulk buy of 250 kg grain - $450 icluding delivery to Tassie. Brews cost between $15.00 - $35.00 to do. Enjoyment factor - priceless.
Oh and the beer is a hell of a lot better.
Cheers
David


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## mckenry (14/7/10)

Some people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

NOT pointing the finger at anyone here. AG is worth every penny. You just cant compare properly.

AG has a romance, a feeling, a passion that K&K doesnt. It's mabo, it's the whole vibe...


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## A3k (14/7/10)

mckenry said:


> Some people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
> 
> NOT pointing the finger at anyone here. AG is worth every penny. You just cant compare properly.
> 
> AG has a romance, a feeling, a passion that K&K doesnt. It's mabo, it's the whole vibe...




Agreed.
A feel of making and achieving something great.


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## MeLoveBeer (14/7/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> What I mean is I'd like to know if anyone else has seen this when working with say dry malt extract.
> 
> I've never used dry malt extract before. I always used liquid when I did partials / extracts.



Yeh, I get DME clumping up all the time when using it for starters etc... it was one of my pet hates about k&k brewing and a catalyst for me going AG.


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## MarkBastard (14/7/10)

mckenry said:


> Some people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
> 
> NOT pointing the finger at anyone here. AG is worth every penny. You just cant compare properly.
> 
> AG has a romance, a feeling, a passion that K&K doesnt. It's mabo, it's the whole vibe...



I agree.

But I do see people here giving misleading advice when it comes to the cost of this hobby.

The fact is it can be very expensive. Saying "I know someone that made an AG rig for $20" doesn't mean that that's the typical or recommended investment.


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## Phoney (14/7/10)

As has been pointed out many times before though, brewing isnt an expensive hobby when compared to other hobbies. Geez earlier this year I forked out nearly $20 grand on a 4WD, im now looking at spending another couple of grand on fitting it out for comfortable camping & 4wd'ing, after that i'll probably buy a boat for another few grand...at least, then there's my penchant for overseas holidays to exotic locations, and the list goes on... $1000 for my AG setup? meh. chump change. At least with that I dont have to buy cases of Fat Yak for $50 or $60 a pop like my mates do.... Because I can brew it for a quarter of that price! Happy days!


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## QldKev (14/7/10)

Hobby 1:
Cost me >$20,000 for my 4wd + another $5,000 for stuff to go with it

Hobby 2:
Cost me >$20,000 for my V8 passion + another $5,000 in mods

Hobby 3:
Cost me lots for my caravan, and all bits n peices to go in it

Hobby 4:
Cost me lots for my boat, and lots more for my fishing rods, echo finders etc.

Hobby 5:
My homebrewing is a fairly cheap hobby to get into; and it saves me money compared to drinking commercial beer at the same quality.


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## Bribie G (14/7/10)

At least they are onto Fat Yak, hope for Australia yet :icon_cheers:


----------



## bum (14/7/10)

QldKev said:


> Hobby 1:
> Cost me >$20,000 for my 4wd + another $5,000 for stuff to go with it
> 
> Hobby 2:
> ...


 

Video games and masturbation cost me next to nothing. Homebrewing is terribly expensive!!! 

This justification by comparison is kinda pointless. It costs what it costs and it is worth it or it isn't.


----------



## Swinging Beef (14/7/10)

bum said:


> This justification by comparison is kinda pointless. It costs what it costs and it is worth it or it isn't.


Much of the content of this forum is, too, to some people's minds, but it does help while away the work day. :icon_cheers: 

AG is very time consuming compared to kits, but heaps more rewarding, and has the potential to create a finer end product.
I suspect almost NO AG brewers do it for the cost saving.
Its fun.
It massages the ego, when your friends love your beer.
It gives you an excuse to stand in the man cave for five hours.


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## Pete2501 (14/7/10)

Swinging Beef said:


> It gives you an excuse to stand in the man cave for five hours.




I wish I had a man cave


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## KGB (14/7/10)

Kevman said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I might have to look in on a brew day and see how an AG is done. It would be good to see an AG done on a "primitive or simpler" setup rather than a bells and whistles setup.
> 
> The only other cost that has to be factored in that people have forgotten about is time. KK takes about an hour maximum (with plenty of beer breaks). Kits and Bits takes about 1.5 to 2 hours. How long does AG take?


Check out NickJD's "move to BIAB threads".


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## MeLoveBeer (14/7/10)

Swinging Beef said:


> It gives you an excuse to stand in the man cave for five hours.



+1

Also gives you justification to drink brews all day while doing it (I've explained many times to the missus that it takes the consumption of good beer to make good beer)


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## Pete2501 (14/7/10)

MeLoveBeer said:


> +1
> 
> Also gives you justification to drink brews all day while doing it (I've explained many times to the missus that it takes the consumption of good beer to make good beer)



Makes sense to me.


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## QldKev (14/7/10)

MeLoveBeer said:


> +1
> 
> Also gives you justification to drink brews all day while doing it (I've explained many times to the missus that it takes the consumption of good beer to make good beer)



I just tell my missus, I'm not drinking the beer for the sake of it; it is my dedication to a scientific approach of crafting a perfected balanced product.


----------



## QldKev (14/7/10)

bum said:


> Video games and masturbation cost me next to nothing. Homebrewing is terribly expensive!!!
> 
> This justification by comparison is kinda pointless. It costs what it costs and it is worth it or it isn't.



So thats how you make that cream ale. :huh: 

QldKev


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## zebba (14/7/10)

Video games cost you next to nothing Bum? Crikey! I think from 2000 to 2007 I spent around 15 grand on gaming! Over the last 2 years, starting from scratch, I've spent under $1k on brewing. Mind you, I've been rather lucky with the freebies.


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## Phoney (14/7/10)

That's what I thought!

>$1000 for a nice 42" HD telly, $500 for a PS3/XBOX, then games are $60-$100 a pop. You _can _do it cheaper on a PC h34r: , but a decent gaming rig will set you back at least >$1500....that you need to upgrade every 3 years to play the latest games.


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## zebba (14/7/10)

LOL!

At one stage I was running a $6k gaming rig. And I held onto it for 2 years before upgrading...

Mind you, I was an addict. No denying it, and didn't deny it at the time either. But with the missus living a couple of hours away...


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## bum (14/7/10)

I already had a telly. "Needed" a bluray player (negating the ENTIRE cost of the ps3). And lately I've basically only been playing Fallout 3 which I got for $20. +100hrs (on first playthrough) of entertainment for $20? Hard to beat that. Speaking of beating things that hard, that brings us to the costs of my other hobby...

But yeah I was just making a point and didn't want to say scrapbooking or some bullshit.

I'd apologise to the OP but it's all pretty dumb, innit?


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## WarmBeer (14/7/10)

bum said:


> ...that brings us to the costs of my other hobby...


KY ain't free


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## petesbrew (14/7/10)

I suppose at the knk side of things, you could get a pretty sweet automatic can opener.
Maybe we could have some threads for noobies like:
"show us your can opener" or "what kit are you opening?"


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## bum (14/7/10)

A stainless spoon.


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## Screwtop (14/7/10)

Katie said:


> AG is alot more FUN!






SpillsMostOfIt said:


> A mate of mine reckons my frugality is legendary. That may be true, but even though I save money wherever I can I cannot say that I am saving money on beer. That's okay because that isn't why I brew.






bum said:


> This justification by comparison is kinda pointless. It costs what it costs and it is worth it or it isn't.




I have a Caravan parked in the shed and use it for about 4 weeks per year, worth a lot more than my brew kit. Some people have boats.

Simple: Want to make cheap piss, then make it, you gotta drink it


----------



## QldKev (14/7/10)

QldKev said:


> Hobby 1:
> Cost me >$20,000 for my 4wd + another $5,000 for stuff to go with it
> 
> Hobby 2:
> ...



Shit reading back through this I've spend lots on my above hobbies, maybe I shouldn't complain when the wife wants new shoes.

time for a homebrew me thinks.



QldKev


----------



## bum (14/7/10)

QldKev said:


> Shit reading back through this I've spend lots on my above hobbies, maybe I shouldn't complain when the wife wants new shoes.


 
Urgh. My wife has recently noticed how much I've spent on my new rig and since then new bags and clothes and stuff have been turning up in the house at a much greater rate than they used to. 

I think I'll put off that grainmill for a while yet...


----------



## petesbrew (14/7/10)

bum said:


> Urgh. My wife has recently noticed how much I've spent on my new rig and since then new bags and clothes and stuff have been turning up in the house at a much greater rate than they used to.
> 
> I think I'll put off that grainmill for a while yet...


Yeah well, we just saw our homeloan balance, and um, it barely dropped.


----------



## Acasta (14/7/10)

phoneyhuh said:


> As has been pointed out many times before though, brewing isnt an expensive hobby when compared to other hobbies. Geez earlier this year I forked out nearly $20 grand on a 4WD, im now looking at spending another couple of grand on fitting it out for comfortable camping & 4wd'ing, after that i'll probably buy a boat for another few grand...at least, then there's my penchant for overseas holidays to exotic locations, and the list goes on... $1000 for my AG setup? meh. chump change. At least with that I dont have to buy cases of Fat Yak for $50 or $60 a pop like my mates do.... Because I can brew it for a quarter of that price! Happy days!






QldKev said:


> Hobby 1:
> Cost me >$20,000 for my 4wd + another $5,000 for stuff to go with it
> 
> Hobby 2:
> ...



Being a 19yo uni student, i feel that saving money is good for me because i don't have that much money haha. less then Half the reason im doing this is for price, but i really do enjoy the brewing and fun behind it. Thats why if i can produce good beer at a decent price it would be good haha.


----------



## manticle (14/7/10)

Kevman said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I might have to look in on a brew day and see how an AG is done. It would be good to see an AG done on a "primitive or simpler" setup rather than a bells and whistles setup.
> 
> The only other cost that has to be factored in that people have forgotten about is time. KK takes about an hour maximum (with plenty of beer breaks). Kits and Bits takes about 1.5 to 2 hours. How long does AG take?



it's all relative. Some people enjoy spending hours cooking a sauce or drawing with pencil (I know I do). Some people spend hours in the garden tending vegetables. 

Some people like frozen dinners and watching TV. The time spent can be fun, exhilarating, frustrating, exciting, rewarding and so on.

It depends what you want to get out of it at the end. My brewdays take about 4-6 hours but I'm not rushing anywhere. That's 4-6 hours making beer - in the meantime (while the mash is on) I can ride up the road and get my weekly shopping, do some reading for uni, get dinner prepared, bottle a batch, do some gardening or have a pull. It's not hands on every second.

As for primitive: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=35595


----------



## HoppingMad (14/7/10)

manticle said:


> Once you're set up for AG which you can do cheaply



I 100% agree with this statement. Once you're set up.

Bear in mind that a basic kit set-up plus a few extras (like a capper and heating unit) will set you back $80-$120
An allgrain set-up can vary but if you go for something in stainless steel you are looking at close to $1000 when you factor in silicon hoses, taps, tools you'll use to make it. And that's not including extras like pumps and mills.

That said I can make a double batch pils style beer (40-45L) for around $18-$22) When you use a single grain or one base grain, then one specialty on top it works out very cheap (and especially when you bulk buy). When you get fancy with 3-5 hop schedules, and multiple grainbills of imported european malts it can take the cost of a small batch into the stratosphere.

So yep, per longneck All-grain beer is cheaper and better to drink than kit. But add the gear price to the equation and you have a real cost blowout. And then you would say kit wins on cheapness.

But as most here will tell you, it's for the love man - not the money.  

Hopper.


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## unrealeous (14/7/10)

manticle said:


> ... do some gardening or have a pull. It's not hands on every second.


No pun intended of course...

That's the second reference to white water wristing in this thread. So maybe it is true that most home brewers are just a pack of wankers. h34r:


----------



## manticle (14/7/10)

You can get set up much cheaper than $1000

The setup is the most difficult and expensive part - however thinking laterally and being economical (if you need to be)

You can look at:

-BIAB
-Stovetop brewing
-2 or 3V brewing using an old esky, plumbing bits from a plumbing supply place (NOT BUNNINGS), a large stock pot from an Asian Grocer and a <$100 burner from a retailer and a gas bottle (or an immersion heater) and a no chill cube. Some people started AG brewing on stoves or existing barbecues, I used an existing weber.

Tools needed to make an esky tun with copper manifold include a hacksaw, shifter, vice and cordless drill and bits which many people either have access to or can purchase cheaply.

If you have $1000 to spend on getting set up to make good beer then go for it but you don't have to and if you don't have it you can still make good beer. Just use your nouse and be prepared to want to upgrade (which may mean spending later but it's like layby or small repayments with no interest).

@unrealous - I have no doubt about that. Ever had a drink with one of them?


----------



## DU99 (14/7/10)

Everyone to their own.if you want quality spend the $$$'s if you want crap spend little..even if people bought the equipment bit by bit..eventually you will end up with a good system


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## praxis178 (14/7/10)

Cost break down of my hobbies...

1. Sailing $15K for the 10footer plus $6K for new sails as required.
2. Flying $20K for the plane plus new skins for the wings (in transit from US) $3.5K
3. Gem cutting $3.5K for the machine plus "mumble" $$$$$$$ for the rough
4. Jewellery making ~$20K/year in metals and consumables
5. Brewing ~$250 for the AG kit last year, $840 for the kegging setup, ~$200 for malt in the past year

Spent today doing a double batch of Golden Ale plus a small batch of second runnings beer, so a full days brewing for ~$45..... 

I guess it's all relative, but if it's fun and you enjoy not only the process but also the proceeds then what's the matter with you? Smile your having fun! :icon_cheers: 

BTW at least SWMBO approves of hobbies 3 and 4, and like some of my lighter beers, so on the whole I'm in "profit".


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## Nick JD (14/7/10)

My tiny little cheap gear gets used about once a week and makes on average 18L. I don't drink 18L per week, so I have no need to spend any more than the $30 I spent. Parts of it also get used to make cheese.

That said I admire those who have a thing for bling in brewing - brewing isn't my "bling" area (I spend lots on other hobbies) and I really don't want to be able to make 50L per week because I like variety in my Cupboard O' Beer. 

BIAB, no-chill beers are at least as good as most expensive setup beers. 

As always, YMMV.


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## MarkBastard (14/7/10)

Gee you blokes have a lot of other hobbies including expensive ones.

My mates just go to the gym and stuff.

I am the most likely to do a hobby of the people I know and I spend maybe 2 grand a year in total on home brew and other DIY projects.


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## manticle (14/7/10)

I spend 8 cents per month designing my own combs in MS paint.


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## bum (14/7/10)

I spend 6 cents a month buying manticle's mspaint combs on eBay.


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## QldKev (14/7/10)

he sells the rest to me for 3 cents, he's making a profit.


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## gregs (14/7/10)

Nick JD said:


> My tiny little cheap gear gets used about once a week and makes on average 18L. I don't drink 18L per week, so I have no need to spend any more than the $30 I spent. Parts of it also get used to make cheese.
> 
> That said I admire those who have a thing for bling in brewing - brewing isn't my "bling" area (I spend lots on other hobbies) and I really don't want to be able to make 50L per week because I like variety in my Cupboard O' Beer.
> 
> ...



Is this from experienced tastings or off the top of your head?


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## HoppingMad (15/7/10)

manticle said:


> You can get set up much cheaper than $1000
> 
> The setup is the most difficult and expensive part - however thinking laterally and being economical (if you need to be)



Yep this is true. My statement about up to $1000 relates to getting 3 stainless pots (new they're around $300 each), taps and weldless fittings, along with a mash screen from a place like Grain & Grape - with a setup like that you wouldn't see much change from $1000.

But as Mants suggests, using an esky as a mash tun and using household pots can make it much cheaper.

For the real tightarse, the cheapest mash system I've ever seen is here:
Food Grade Buckets for Mashing System - $20

As others suggest - there is a swag of gear options - How low or high tech you want to go is up to you.

A couple of award-winning brewers I know use heated pots on their kitchen stove which they carry out to their garage to fill an esky with.
You've gotta find what works for you.

Hopper.


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## bconnery (15/7/10)

QldKev said:


> he sells the rest to me for 3 cents, he's making a profit.



And everybody has a share...

(really hoping that makes sense to at least one person...)


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## Nick JD (15/7/10)

gregs said:


> Is this from experienced tastings or off the top of your head?



Judges results.


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## Brewme (16/7/10)

I have once again thought about going AG but this time have decided to give it a go.

After reading this topic: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...showtopic=36094 I am convinced this is the way to go for a beginner in AG.

Although it's referred to as BIAB, I can't see any difference.

Using an urn instead of the 3 vessel system with pumps, hoses, burners that sound like F-111 jets etc, is the way to go IMHO.

Can anyone tell me the difference between the two systems in producing a great brew?

The was I see it is:-

1. HLT (Urn heats/boils water)
2. Mash Tun or Esky with s, m, y, z shaped copper pipe, Tap (Urn with bag)
3. Boiler with gas burner (Urn boils liquids)

Only one unit to wash. That part I like 

Now gotta read a few more threads for my ingredients.


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## manticle (16/7/10)

Don't worry about the difference. Plenty of threads already discussing any differences - most seem to agree that in the final product there is little, if any. Both make all grain beer so just go with whichever makes sense for you.


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## Phoney (16/7/10)

Brewme said:


> I am convinced this is the way to go for a beginner in AG.



:icon_cheers: 

Go for it!

So long as you at least a few kit/extract brews under your belt and know the basics you'll be fine with this method & have no reason to upgrade for a long while to come....if ever.

enjoy!


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## jakub76 (16/7/10)

I got a thermometer for about $15 and metre of voile to try a BIAB after about 16 years on-off K&K brewing and a few months solid doing extracts. I did 1 BIAB before picking up an ebay esky for about $20, around $40 at Bunnings for plumbing, $85 at allquip for a 40L Aluminum kettle and a $60 2-ring burner with reg. So all told less than $250. I still use the stove top and my existing pots as HLT to heat my water - no biggie - in fact I save heaps on gas this way. 

I harvest and re-use all of my yeast unless there's any sanitation worries or weird adjuncts. Depending on style and what's on hand I'll spend anywhere from $25-$60 dollars per AG batch - my system dials in 24 litres comfortably. I love having complete control over all of my ingredients, it might mean I need to buy 6 types of grains and 3 types of hops but I love that. I can tweak, substitute, design and create - I get a kick out of that. At the end of the day it's still less than half the cost of commercial beer and so much more fulfilling. Bias aside most of my home made AG beers are better or at least more interesting than what's readily available at the bottlo


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## marksfish (16/7/10)

the main difference between biab and traditional systems in brewing is the brewer!


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## scotteth (16/7/10)

If I can count the equipment and half spent bags of hops in the freezer as "assets" and the much better beer as "goodwill" then I'm miles ahead with the all grain option. If you're considering the balance in the bank account then I should've stuck with K & K. (having said that Kits and bits can really add up!)

I think the answer depends on what sort of commercial beer you'd drink, if the only consideration is something thats cheap and tastes like beer, then the woolies kits are the go for sure....


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## ekul (27/7/10)

My last AG cost me around $17, including the postage to get the grains to me. I don't buy in bulk, i bought enough for two batches of coopers pale ale from craftbrewer and it was around $20 for the grain and 13 for the postage. Plus a little bit for the POR hops that i already had. And yeast was free because i reciultured it. ADmittedly its not a complex recipe but i've only just started so the simpler the better.

As for my setup it was pretty cheap too.

50L stainless steel pot $55 (AJ trading in the valley)
Ring burner $20
Swiss Voile $4 (have to buy some more today though as my sewing isn't very good)
Coffee Thermometer $12
immersion chiller/Copper coil (found it in the shed, was real dirty but i soaked it in vinegar overnight,it came up a treat!)

Plus the fermenter, fridge, temp controller, hydrometer, siphon but i needed that whether i was going to be making KnK or AG so i won't include all that stuff.

As a comparison my extract brews were probably a little more expensive than my AG

2 cans of LLME @ 12.95 each is $24.90
Dextrose -$3
Hops ~$2
Yeast ~free to 50c (i always reuse yeast many times!)

So all up around $30 a batch. I'm saving $10 a batch doing AG so it won't take me much time at all to 'recoup' my costs of the extra equipment. Thats not taking time into account. But I like brewing so extending my brewing time from one hour to five is a bonus for me  
Although AG will end up being cheaper for me, it was not my reason for making the switch. There is alot more variety with grain when compared to extract. I also figured that my favourite beers are made with grain, so if i want to emulate them then i'm probably going to have to use grain as well. And it was also a new challenge.
After tasting my first Ag when it came out of the fermenter i know i have made the right choice. I've never had a beer taste that good out of the fermenter, can't wait for it to carb up!


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (27/7/10)

I'm a BIABer after about 12 years on and off Kit, K&K and then extract. So I had at least the concept of hop utilisation correct from extract.

I can see the reasons for using an urn for BIAB - to do a large lot of beer in one go and keep the heat on during mashing time - fantastic.

The only thing I can't justify is the cost. Well, more the fact that I just don't have money floating around to do it and the missus will notice if I come home with one/one gets delivered and immediately ask "how much?"

I do full size batches on the stove with 2 x 19L big w pots which cost me $19 and $12 bucks (2nd was on special). It is probably marginally more time consuming that using an urn, but time vs cost, it wins, IMO. But I understand not all have the same view.

I also do "experimental" batches (much like NickJD's BIAB guide) - this gives me the opportunity to:

1. Play with different ingredients, in different quantities and proportions and try to brew a number of different style beers (and using the 2 pots, i can do 2 batches at the same time of two different types of beers); and
2. I can accumulate a good variety of hops in the freezer - so I have more of a "library" of hop varieties, as I'll never use 90g worth of pellets in a 9L batch.

Horses for courses, but 2 pots on the stop hit the time vs beer vs cost thing perfectly and the beer is better than anything else I've produced.


----------



## Acasta (27/7/10)

Does AG get rid of the 'Homebrew' taste? I tried an extract and i was better, but the malt flavor was still the same.


----------



## Phoney (27/7/10)

Acasta said:


> Does AG get rid of the 'Homebrew' taste? I tried an extract and i was better, but the malt flavor was still the same.



Indeed. Try any microbrew from a bottle shop, that's what AG tastes like.


----------



## jakub76 (27/7/10)

Acasta - there was a recent thread about that 'homebrew flavour'. I think I get what you mean, that kit twang. I haven't experienced that in a long time now. You certainly don't get it with AG and I don't recall having that issue with extract, though my extract brews were always pretty sweet with a high FG.

Someone recently said that both the best beers he's ever tasted and the worst were homebrews. Just by going AG won't guarantee you awesome beer, but it certainly gives you the opportunity to make great beer.



> 50L stainless steel pot $55 (AJ trading in the valley)


ekul - really? $55 for 50 litre SS pot?!? That's awesome value - where's the store, which valley? Website? Phone number?


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (27/7/10)

jakub76 said:


> Acasta - there was a recent thread about that 'homebrew flavour'. I think I get what you mean, that kit twang. I haven't experienced that in a long time now. You certainly don't get it with AG and I don't recall having that issue with extract, though my extract brews were always pretty sweet with a high FG.
> 
> Someone recently said that both the best beers he's ever tasted and the worst were homebrews. Just by going AG won't guarantee you awesome beer, but it certainly gives you the opportunity to make great beer.
> 
> ...



+2, +1 on the "where is the pot, I want to buy it" and +1 on the first half.

I found that "home brew twang" disappeared when I went AG. I had the same yeast handling and very good sanitisation when doing extract (pretty anal, in fact), as well as AG, so it wasn't that.

I would do some research on the way temperature affects mashing. When I was doing extract, I steeped grains, but I know now that the temp was probably a little on the high side, which might have contributed to twang. I have no empirical proof for it, just a gut feeling.

Paying attention to temp control is important for AG, even BIAB (or especially so). I calculate my mash temp range, and then strike temp from that, and then monitor strike temp religiously, until I get it.

My AG beers are even better than my extract beers, and I made reasonably good extract beers. I think 1 aspect was the ingredient change (grain over goo and better hop utilising) and the other was better temp control.


----------



## ekul (27/7/10)

AJ's trading in the fortitude valley brisbane. Its a chinese shop with herbs i think.
They have bigger ones too, i think they're 80L for $70. And then even bigger then that as well.
My sister bought the 50L one for me when she was down there so i don't exactly know where the shop is besides in the valley somewhere.
I wanted the bigger pot but she didn't have room in her car.  Next time...


----------



## Bribie G (27/7/10)

Now I've done all my comp brews (I'm not even considering the Nationals yet, I'll cross that bridge if I'm fortunate enough to come to it ) I can now settle down and brew solely for my own pleasure, and I've decided to perfect my ideal quaffer. It's basically a "Historical" Aussie Lager crossed with a German Pils so it will not be as heavy in malt as a Pils but will have more hop character than an Aussie, and more bitter.

So I've picked up enough Grain and yeasts from Ross at the weekend to do eight brews in a row, to play around with my 'style' and have a stack of hops in the freezer I need to wade through. The basic recipe I'll be working around is:

4000 Galaxy = 8.36
330 Carapils = 1.60
1000 Rice = 1.50 from ALDI, maybe cheaper in a 10 k bag I dunno.

Hops = 5.00 average, and I've still got some Chinese Saaz that actually makes a good lager bitterer. We won't talk about the aroma :lol: 
S-189 yeast = $1.40 - I have bought a twin pack and will use over 8 brews

So that works out around *$18.00* and is more or less in line with what others have posted, and around the same price as a batch using a Coopers kit, (edit: a kilo of LDME or BE )some extra hops and spec grains and a better yeast. I haven't factored in 'consumables' such as finings, Polyclar, Starsan etc as these would be the same anyway. 

As Nick posted on a previous page I could easily pare this back to 4000 galaxy, 600 sugar and 30g of some hop and still produce something drinkable for around $12 but I'm doing it for my pleasure not to make cheap ethanol :icon_cheers:


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## Acasta (27/7/10)

Yeah im not going to cheap ethanol either, im doing AG for the improvement in beer, to get rid of the HB taste and do some good recipe.

Someone mentioned before to try some micro brews, where i can i find them? I live around the corner from Dans, but i have no idea. I tend to get Little Creatures, James squire, White Rabbit and that type of stuff.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (27/7/10)

Acasta said:


> Yeah im not going to cheap ethanol either, im doing AG for the improvement in beer, to get rid of the HB taste and do some good recipe.
> 
> Someone mentioned before to try some micro brews, where i can i find them? I live around the corner from Dans, but i have no idea. I tend to get Little Creatures, James squire, White Rabbit and that type of stuff.



Dan's generally. I don't know about your neck of the woods, but in brisbane all the stores (I live between 3 stores) have undergone a signficant change, in that they now have moved a considerable amount of craft beers into the fridges and reduced alcopop fridge space.

Mildura brewery, knappstein, ballarat beer, barons, snowy mountain (barons as well) and a considerable number of others (this is off memory at work) are there. 

My other tip? Look at the labels, as often they will tell you what hops or give enough of the malt information to guess. Mildura's Stormy Cloud Ale is how I first learned to recogise Amarillo and I picked up another beer the other day, immediately realised the amarillo, googled it and I was right. Knappstein's reserve lager is the only commercial beer I have found that uses Nelson Sauvin hops (there may be others, I just haven't found them yet), which are one of my fave hops (and Ross at CB's NS Lager introduced me to them).

You can learn a great deal about hops in particular from the labels.


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## white.grant (27/7/10)

bconnery said:


> And everybody has a share...
> 
> (really hoping that makes sense to at least one person...)




Yes it does.

Want to buy some chocolate coated cotton?


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## Nick JD (27/7/10)

BribieG said:


> As Nick posted on a previous page I could easily pare this back to 4000 galaxy, 600 sugar and 30g of some hop and still produce something drinkable for around $12 but I'm doing it for my pleasure not to make cheap ethanol :icon_cheers:



I'll send you a couple of hundred grams of supurb PoR, gratis, if you throw away those Chinese hops.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (27/7/10)

Nick JD said:


> I'll send you a couple of hundred grams of supurb PoR, gratis, if you throw away those Chinese hops.




Dunno which is worse?


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## Nick JD (27/7/10)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Dunno which is worse?



PoR is a great hop. Aussie Lagers are made with an _extract _of PoR - use the real thing and it's nicer because it's got that PoR taste ... but hoppy, not isohoppy.


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## felten (27/7/10)

Acasta said:


> Yeah im not going to cheap ethanol either, im doing AG for the improvement in beer, to get rid of the HB taste and do some good recipe.
> 
> Someone mentioned before to try some micro brews, where i can i find them? I live around the corner from Dans, but i have no idea. I tend to get Little Creatures, James squire, White Rabbit and that type of stuff.


http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...;showarticle=37 

oh and since you're local, try kooinda, they stock it at the old england and greensborough bottle-O and tons of other places... cant check though the website is still in the works


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