# What Is A Real Brewer ?



## GMK (9/11/04)

Last night I was told that the Only Real Brewers were those using All Grain. 

I am not wanting to open any All Grain versus Extract wars - just want people to vote/cast their opinion.

Those people making Kits & Bits, extract, partials, mead and ciders - were just "Fermentation Assisitants" - not Brewers.

Needless to say that i dont agree with this philososphy/opinion.

However,

1) Being an opened minded individual - i will bow to the majority vote/opinion.
2) Man - am i glad a become a Real Brewer on Anzac Day 2004, when i did my 1st All Grain.  - Now i can hold my head up high as and call myself a "BREWER"
3) Dont know what i was doing upto them - i wonder if the National Competition knew it had some "Fermentation Assistants" wining prizes - Non BREWERS.
4) As it is a Home BREW championship - perhaps us "Fermentation Assisitants" should not enter - as we dont BREW....

Your Vote counts.....

Happy to be proved wrong and enlightened by the majority....


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## Snow (9/11/04)

Perhaps someone should tell all those "fermentation assisting" microbreweries who use a large portion of extract in their beers......


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## jayse (9/11/04)

Ken as ussual i think your all over the shop here.
Your question here is not at the heart of the matter we discussed last nite. Anybody can 'call' themselves a brewer, hell you can even call yourself a grand master which has me thinking maybe i could call myself a saint. That sure as hell doesnt't make me a saint.

No one would argue and say home brewers using kits can't call themsleves brewers.
But what we can argue quite rightly is brewing is the taking of malted barley and mashing, boiling, cooling and fermenting. Now if someone at coopers sitting behind a computer with a mouse in his hand makes the majority of your wort then i think only someone with a ego as big as yours would claim that your are really brewing up the wort.
I can't see this vote is gunna give your argument any merit even if everyone posts they think you are a real brewer when using kits.
I just say when i used kits i didn't for a second think i was really brewing up the wort like a 'real' brewer, but i did call myself a brewer.
But in using extract you don't even know for sure what the extract is made up of exactly let alone make the extract yourself.
Iam not having a go at any brewer of any kind, exept you of course because you seem deluded.

I pose your question another way.
Can people see that when using extract another brewer has already brewed the major part of your wort? this doesn't mean you can't call yourself a brewer, hell call yourself grand master if you like. But surely you aren't as blind as you can't see the extract has already been brewed, it has been mashed,lautered,boiled and whirlpooled.

Your question is like asking people do you think your a real musican if all you do is sing along to a karoke machine.

Please note everyone (except ken) iam not having a go i think you all make great beer how ever you do it. But i know the rest of you aren't deluded like GMK here to think for a second that brewing from extract is brewing for real from scratch, no ones stopping you from calling yourself a real brewer, just you can't be so blind as to see you are not actually brewing the the whole wort for 'real'.

Thanx for starting this GMK.  
Are you a chef if your making two minute noodles?t.v diners?

Holly hell, i think i'll shut up! and wait for the GMK admiration society to try cut me down at the knees. <_< 

Jayse <_<


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## Batz (9/11/04)

:chug: :chug: Holy Moly :chug: :chug: 
This old one again
Anyone who brews HB be it K&K too AG , in my opinion is a brewer
Cheers too us all !
Drink up and be merry :chug: 

Batz


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## Gough (9/11/04)

Amen Batz  

To paraphrase Marx and Engels: 'Brewers of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your livers'

Shawn.


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (9/11/04)

I voted yes  

C&B
TDA


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## chiller (9/11/04)

GMK: It seems you have chosen to totally miss the point of the converstation on chat last night.

No one said k&k or kits and bits etc do not make beer ... they do, however they don't brew the main part of the beer themselves. That is done by a brewer somewhere else.

They are not brewers themselves and until they make the wort themselves by mashing the grain they only make beer from someone elses efforts.

I'm not judging the final product, simply stating one person arrives at it after the full journey whereas the other has hitched a ride.

How anyone makes beer is up to them ...... but just saying you are a brewer doesn't make it so.

I don't care how someone makes his/her beer but I do care that we represent a centuries old craft correctly and don't claim credit for the work of others.

I don't malt the grain .......... I'm not a maltster, a dedicated craft in its own right. 

I mash the grain and formulate the extract from those grains to form my wort to make my beer. By definition that makes me a brewer. I don't claim to be overly good at it but I do claim rightly to be a brewer. 

Make your beer in whatever manner you wish but don't claim participation in the ancient craft of brewing on the back of someone else's efforts.

As an all grain brewer I have a far greater chance of making a crap beer due to all the complexities involved in crush, mash, mash temperature, steps involved for protien, beta and alpha amylase,water chemistry, temperature, combination of grains, type of sparge, pH of water, ph of grain bed, ph of sparge runoff, 

To reach the above I may have researched the interaction of various grain with oneanother and their affect on wort ph. I may have discussed with other brewers their experience.

and that is before I add hops to my wort. 


Brewing is more than giving yourself a title.

Steve.


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## AndrewQLD (9/11/04)

I must say I tend to agree with Jayse, so I vote yes??  
perhaps All grainers should be called Brewers, and K&K'ers could be called Fermenters :lol: . But I really don't think it makes any difference, it is all just semantics.


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## nonicman (9/11/04)

> it is all just semantics


  

Wouldn't a "real" brewer be someone who makes a living brewing? Just because I can make a green curry or a chocolate cake from scratch in my own kitchen doesn't make me a "real" Chef.

Or another take, a "real" brewer produces Real Ale.

Jayse is possibly correct, but just because I brew AG at home doesn't make me a Brewer, thats a bit of an insult to professionals who do it day in and day out. I voted no.


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## Jeff (9/11/04)

This is going to be one of those interesting threads

Just to have a little input , and stir the pot a bit

Wold you perfer a nice homemade curry ( sorry one of my favourites )
Or a nice can of "Tom Piper" curry? <_< 

Will sit back and watch now


Oh I voted yes


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## AndrewQLD (9/11/04)

> Wouldn't a "real" brewer be someone who makes a living brewing? Just because I can make a green curry or a chocolate cake from scratch in my own kitchen doesn't make me a "real" Chef.





> Or another take, a "real" brewer produces Real Ale.




I think someone who brews for a living is usually refered to as a Master Brewer or a Craft Brewer.

And yes I brew my beer from grains and consider myself a brewer, I do not just ferment someones wort.


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## johnno (9/11/04)

What about if you use Malt Extract only?


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## pint of lager (9/11/04)

There was an excellent thread about kits vs all grain a few months ago.

Used to make all my beer using kits, and I thought I was a brewer. Now all my beers are all grain, and I understand I was Grand Can Opener Master of the order of fermentation assistant first class.

Brew the best beer you can with the best ingredients available with the best equipment you can muster with the best techniques you have learned. Keep good records. Keep reading and learning and experimenting. Join a brewclub, enter competitions, run competitions, visit brewers, scour the internet for information and buy good brew books.

Ken, I wonder how winemakers feel about your question?


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## nonicman (9/11/04)

> I think someone who brews for a living is usually refered to as a Master Brewer or a Craft Brewer.



Not at Stone (Arrogant Bastard Ale etc...)

Stone's staff page


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (9/11/04)

jleske said:


> > I think someone who brews for a living is usually refered to as a Master Brewer or a Craft Brewer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 OMG  

There is an opening there for you GMK. They don't have anyone with the title:

HEAD OAK CHIP CONTRIBUTOR :lol: 

C&B
TDA


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## SteveSA (9/11/04)

A yes vote here.

A brewer controls everything that goes into his/her wort and understands the brewing principles behind his/her decisions.

No CAN OpEnerS allowed  

Pantry items optional in some "households" (within reason of course)  

Note: yeast makes beer.

Caps & bottling
Steve


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## Snow (9/11/04)

Ok - I'll have a crack at this.

I am a partial masher and I call myself a "real brewer" (and I vote!  ). I read professional brewing texts, I research styles, I devise grain bills, mash temps, times, I mash, lauter, whirlpool, I've done double decoction mashes and have taught myself enough water chemistry to approximate correct pH and mineral composition to match the style of beer I am making. However, because I am limited in time and equipment, I have to add extract made by another "real brewer" and I don't really know 100% what that extract is made up of. I consider the extract I am adding is an adjunct, in that it is an extraneous additive to the wort I have made, to bring up my OG and adjust the flavour profile of my beer. This is exactly the same as adding Belgian candy sugar, sucrose or whatever many commercial brewers add around the world to produce their beers. A Belgian "real brewer" doesn't make the candy sugar he/she uses - does that mean he/she is cheating and riding off the back of someone else's work? Maybe it does, but that doesn't make them any less of a "real brewer". That said, i don't think I am disrespecting a centuries-old craft by saying I'm a "real brewer", just because I use adjuncts in my beer, one of which happens to be a portion of malt extract.

So...I voted no  

Cheers - Snow


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## BrentonSpear (9/11/04)

Either way the outcome is the same....beer and lots of it


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## Boots (9/11/04)

I voted "yes" (and I'm not an all grain brewer .. yet)...

I would have thought that to be a "real" brewer, you would have to:

a - Know exactly what your ingredients are, and more importantly, know WHY they are there

b - Have "a degree" of control over every aspect of the beer (within reason of course), including fermentation and presentation, and more importantly, know what the ramifications are of any adjustment / loss of control to any of your processes.

Sure .. I call myself a home BREWER / hobby BREWER, but the person warming up the airplane meals is probably titled a chef.......


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## MAH (9/11/04)

I voted yes and I feel no need to explain why, it's self obvious that only AGers are real brewers.

This is why on weekends me and my other AG mates like to go down to the LHBS, point at the fermentation assistants and laugh at their feeble efforts!

Come on Ken, why bother with this poll? You touched on the real issue but haven't followed through. The poll should read:

1) Should only AGers be allowed to enter home brew competitions?

2) Should all previous winners who did not enter an AG beer be stripped of their medals and exposed as the dirty cheats they are?

3) Should AGers go down to their LHBS, point at the fermentation assistants and laugh at their feeble efforts?

Cheers
MAH
REAL BREWER and PROUD!


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## Gough (9/11/04)

I am now an 'all - grain' brewer. Have been since July. I have averaged a brew a fortnight since then, all of them AG and am starting to feel like I am really controlling the process well and brewing some good beers. I'm now cracking my own grain, building my own recipes, I built my gear myself (despite my 'tool challenged' status  ) and would like to think I fit this new very narrow definition of being a 'real brewer' that you blokes are presenting.

However I took quite a few years to get to this stage and certainly considered myself a 'real brewer' for most of the way. I would argue that extract 'n grain and part mash brewing should definitely be classed as 'real brewing'. I was building my own recipes from scratch, experimenting with grains and hops etc. and controlling the process. I was also brewing some good beers, even if they were 'tainted' with the evil extract.

Why do we feel the need to differentiate? Is it to make us who are now brewing AG somehow feel superior? I haven't seen too many kit 'n kilo brewers coming on here dumping on the rest of us for wasting so much time and effort, or carrying on about how their latest supermarket brew is far superior to anything brewed from scratch so why choose to reinforce some sort of 'brewer's divide'? It just smacks of prejudice to me.

Each to their own. I'm a 'real brewer', but I like a broad church. Room for all styles and levels. Please let's not get too elitist. I've learned HEAPS from blokes like Jayse over the last 18 months or so on this site and it is because of sites like this that I am now as into this craft as I am. Let's not scare off any other newbie 'real brewers' in training eh?

Shawn.


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## wee stu (9/11/04)

OK, six All Grains into the craft and I don't think I've earned the title brewer yet.
Even if one beer was fortunate enough to win best in class in a nationally open comp. Winning a prize doesn't in itself make you "prize winning brewer". And no, I am not giving back the trophy  

I'm very much a newbie, learning the craft and making more mistakes along the way than successes - an apprentice brewer maybe. But still a long way to go before I am satisfied that I have truly earned my stripes. 

Having said that, I acknowledge what Snow has to say (and elements of what I think GMK is trying to say too), and would concede that a competent, experienced and well informed partial masher can be a better, and even more complete "brewer" than an inexperienced, poorly researched and slapdash all grainer. 

FWIW, last year when I discovered Masterbrews, AHB, racking, cold conditioning, dry hopping, liquid yeasts, partial mashing etc I had no doubt. I had arrived, I was a BREWER. 

Perspectives change, it all depends where you are standing.

Once I remember what the question was, I'll go back and vote


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## GOLIATH (9/11/04)

Obviously I should visit more often! Presented with a firestorm on the PC is not my idea of fun.

There are some excellent comments and many views expressed are clearly the result of considered reflection. The reverse is also well represented. 

GMK.... The home/craft/real/extract/kit/whatever brewing world is awash with ignorance already. Why start another useless argument?

The term Real Brewer (meaning mash brewer, in line with this discussion) could perhaps be altered to Holistic Brewer.

I am in accord with some other threads and suggest that if I make a packet soup I am not a soup chef.

For the purpose of discussion heres anothe analogy. "Consider the Truck driver" (not the lilly!). A heavy transport driver that drives proffessionally for a living will sneer at someone that only drives a car to and from work that calls themselves a "Driver". However, both are drivers of a sort.

So I can see both points of view plus a bit in the middle and it would help if others could see the middle bit as well.

Having said that I voted YES!

Regards
Dave


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## GMK (9/11/04)

Might need 2 tittles that will make every one happy....

1/ Brewers and 

2/ BeerMakers (Much Better than Fermentation Assistants)

then assign/choose the category that you want to/beleive you are in....

There is definately alot of passion and feeling out there on this topic....


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## Gough (9/11/04)

Yeah, good point Stu. Definitely still learning here as well, and not within cooee of a trophy of any kind  

Maybe we need a new category for those who really need to differentiate - the 'unreal brewer'. That would really sort things out  So who is an unreal brewer then?


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## Trough Lolly (9/11/04)

I'm a HOMEbrewer...And this is the Aussie HOMEBREWER website B) 

Forget titles, forget whether I used all-grain malt, extract malts, resins, tree sap, the scrapings from my cat's bum :blink: - whatever, I brew beer for consumption at home with me and my mates...

Yes, kits are assembled by someone else and those of us who use them either do the bare minimum and chuck in some water, sugar and the yeast sachet or add to them with crystal malt and/or hops and/or non-kit yeast etc - regardless, they are making beer - some better than others  . 

All-grainers! Did you grow and malt the barley? Did you grow the hops and pelletize the cones or kiln the flowers? Did you plate the yeast cells and put them in the sachet? No. But did you make beer? Yes!  

And that doesn't change regardless of whether the person drinking your kit or all grain brew is about to complement you on it, or smash you over the bollard with the bottle or glass h34r: You brewed beer at home and you are justly proud of your efforts...

For those of us who brew all grain, well done! You are keen to take advantage of and enjoy some additional depth that this fine craft/hobby has to offer. But that's all - you can still make crap beer with all grain - as you well know. It's about technique, learning and understanding the process, not just assuming that your cracked malt and adjuncts will guarantee you brewing success...

What about partial mash brewers? They still mash malt, sparge the grains, boil the wort etc etc. They also use somebody elses malt extract, or wheat extract, etc to assist them in achieving their desired goal. Are they not brewing beer? YES! Did they use some ingredients that somebody else provided? YES!...And the problem is? :blink: 
And before I get flamed - I understand the previous posts - yes, it isn't a slag off aimed at those who use kits, but let's be careful when we make broad ranging comments about surrendering control when we use extracts - I agree that this is an issue that we can go some way towards alleviating with an all grain brew, but that doesn't automatically imply that all-grain is logically better. To do so, would confirm in the eyes of the doubters that all-grain brewers consider themselves to be superior, regardless of their efforts...
How many learned writers have written chapters in their books on "moving up" to all-grain brewing :angry: *cringe* :angry: .

I think we are actually all thinking the same thing. Let's not get too worried about whether this person or that person is entitled to call themselves a brewer (or even a grand master ) - we all start somewhere and work at the hobby until we either get bored and give up or reach a level of commitment and involvement that is comfortable with our lifestyle. 
If that means you start at all-grain or kits, who cares? Everyone is doing what they love the most - brewing beer... :chug: 

Cheers,
TL
P.S. I'll put my recipe for Cats Bum Stout on the recipe page soon 
P.P.S. In case it isn't obvious, I voted no!


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## Boots (9/11/04)

After seeing his post, i think Snow has summed it up best so far - which ever way you vote.


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## Shed (9/11/04)

Hey Trough Lolly,

Can I have the full recipe that goes with the "cats bum scrapings"?


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## pint of lager (9/11/04)

Cat's bum scrapings, would they be ok for adding to the community AHB beer?


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## Shed (9/11/04)

No unless you want to produce VB!


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## Trough Lolly (9/11/04)

pint of lager said:


> Cat's bum scrapings, would they be ok for adding to the community AHB beer?


 No probs! I'll add a saucer of milk to bring up the lactose levels  
And if I'm real lucky, you may detect a faint musk aroma in the hop profile - now that's brewing! :blink: h34r: 

Cheers,
TL :lol:


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## johnno (9/11/04)

Trough Lolly said:


> pint of lager said:
> 
> 
> > Cat's bum scrapings, would they be ok for adding to the community AHB beer?
> ...


 Hey!!
Sop giving the megaswill makers more ideas. 
Cats piss is already one of their favourite ingredients.

cheers


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## johnno (9/11/04)

Looks like the No vote is winning.


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## MAH (9/11/04)

johnno said:


> Looks like the No vote is winning.


 That's only because all the dirty cheaing extract brewers are so insecure abut their feeble atttempts that they're flooding the vote to skew the results. 

Not only are extract brewers beer cheats but it would also appear that they're poll riggers. They're worse than the bloody Commie Pinko Labour Party who love nothing better than to stack branches.

Come on fellow AGers cast your vote for yes. Then when we win this poll we will know for sure that we're superior. We can then laugh at the fermentation assistants over the Internet as well as laughing at them in our LHBS. 

This thread will surely give us all these answers and more!

The AHB forum is more knowlegable than Deep Thought!

Cheers
MAH


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## Sean (9/11/04)

The dictionary within easy reach defines 'brew' as 'make [beer] by infusion, boiling and fermentation.' So I guess if you only do one of those then you aren't really a brewer (or brewster if you happen to be female).

[Aside: those who make cider are cider-makers, not brewers]

And yes, in my opinion the same applies to brew-pubs who make entirely from extract.


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## Temple of Seth (9/11/04)

Hmmm.

Well. This is quite ridiculous. 

I do understand that brewing AG requires a certain large amount of alone-time during which your dedication to your art will keep you busy and apart from the normal social interactions which would otherwise produce the ego-boost which extract brewers enjoy, but seriously people... get some other prop for your over-ticketed selves. <_<

I have met at most one HOMEBREWER who started out as an AG brewer. This implies that new brewers are, in general, extract brewers or kit brewers. Did all you AG people refuse to call yourselves brewers before you scraped up the considerable amount of cash and time that it took to take the extra step?

Are we trying to create an exclusive country club here? I thought HOMEBREWING was a missionary religion. It's quite important to be inclusive. Otherwise, how will we drum up the hordes of devotees necessary to beat the mega-brewers (in the words of Jayse, 'point and click fermenters') and capture the market in the name of local flavor? You might as well get rid of 'Teach a friend to brew day' if you're going to insist that it be nothing less than a full-on day-long all-grain lesson.  Or maybe we should call it 'teach a friend to ferment day' and keep it the way it is.

You AGers have all my respect, trust me. I hope to join you someday, but right now it couldn't work on several levels. I'm coming - wait up. And ease up on the agro. B)


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## Gough (9/11/04)

MAH said:


> They're worse than the bloody Commie Pinko Labour Party who love nothing better than to stack branches.


 :lol: :lol: Geez, Marx and Engels, 'Pinko Commie Bastards', this thread's got it all! :chug: 

Shawn.


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## MCWB (9/11/04)

I voted no.

Although I am now brewing all-grain, I really can't see how partial mashing for example *isn't* real brewing. You mash, boil, add hops, cool, and do everything an AG brewer does, but you substitute some extract for some base malt. Yes, someone else did the crushing/mashing/lautering/sparging and drying etc for your extract, which means you have slightly less control over your wort, but that's it. One can argue the to-s and fro-s of having complete control over your wort all day. Most importantly, it is theoretically possible (although practically impossible) to get exactly the same result using AG and partial mash methods.

I hope none of you use DME for yeast starters, you'd be contaminating your all-grain beer... 

:chug:


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## nonicman (9/11/04)

MAH's posts are spot on. Bloody pinko cheating extract brewers slipped some DME into my starter.
:lol:

seems a childish thread but some of the posts have been very entertaining.


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## flanbos (9/11/04)

Im so sick and tied of all this kit brewer bashing!!!

we all make BEER!! and what do u call someone who makes beer.....a brewer. there is so much snobery from alot of you ag guys and i mean seriously grow up and get over urselves. does it make u feel good to be putting down us guys who for whatever reason make kits and bits or partials. we all have to start somewhere!

ANd dont even get me started on you Mah and your narrow mined comments. if a non full grain brewer can make a winning beer or even a beer that others can enjoy how is he less of a brewer than an ag bloke. 

Unless you actually grow every thing yourself and are involed in every single aspect of ever ingredient of every process, you still are riding on someones back.

i really think this is all a bit stoopid when it comes down to it, we are all home brewers and are makeing much better beer than we would otherwise buy!



i think i need a lie down after all that ranting and raving!!! :chug:


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## Batz (9/11/04)

flanbos said:


> Im so sick and tied of all this kit brewer bashing!!!
> 
> we all make BEER!! and what do u call someone who makes beer.....a brewer. there is so much snobery from alot of you ag guys and i mean seriously grow up and get over urselves. does it make u feel good to be putting down us guys who for whatever reason make kits and bits or partials. we all have to start somewhere!
> 
> ...


 Reading this thread I can not see one post that "puts down" K&K brewers , I think you should relax a little flanbos.

We are all friends here

Batz


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## Tallgum (9/11/04)

jleske said:


> MAH's posts are spot on. Bloody pinko cheating extract brewers slipped some DME into my starter.
> :lol:
> 
> seems a childish thread but some of the posts have been very entertaining.


Agreed MAH, childish and entertaining. 2 years ago my mates use to come around and say, "whats this piss youre making", and it was piss. Now im still using kits but with with bits and a lot of care and they now come around and say "shit thats good". So i was never a real brewer and according to some never will be whilst im using kits . But somehow Im making something that my freinds and I enjoy drinking and it taste a lot like beer. :chug: :chug: :chug:


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## flanbos (9/11/04)

read the posts by MAH......very aggressive, im just getting worked up haha


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## fishard (9/11/04)

Well I have come up with a new title NABA (not a brewers asshole) :lol: and I wear it with pide as I don't really give a shit about titles..........the main thing is we have fun and enjoy what we do what ever that is! I am sure that you all had to start off some where. The good thing is that there is enough of you out there who can give us a hand and drag us to better beer.

I can see how Flanbos could read a bit of snobbery in some posts but hey I don't know you blokes well enough to judge it any other way than a bit of a shit stir!

I know in fishing we spend more time taking the piss out of the blokes who think they are just the best than we do at those having a go! 

any way just keep the good oil coming you all have improved my beer thanks B)

Cheers


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## nonicman (9/11/04)

Maybe it's my own twisted sense of humour, but I don't think Mah was being totally serious, as I read it as Mah was poking at bit of fun at this thread. Could be totally wrong.

Time for a HOMEbrewed beer. :chug:


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## wee stu (9/11/04)

I could be wrong, but I think MAH has his tongue planted very firmly in his cheek Flanbos.

In the immortal words of the brewers' bard: 

_*Relax, don't worry, have a home brew!!*_


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## nonicman (9/11/04)

> I could be wrong, but I think MAH has his tongue planted very firmly in his cheek Flanbos.
> 
> In the immortal words of the brewers' bard:
> 
> Relax, don't worry, have a home brew!!


snap :lol:


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## chiller (9/11/04)

Snobbery? hmmm?

Well, MAH I know quite well and can atest to his genourosity to all seeking to improve their beer making skills. Note for the eyesight challenged I did not invoke the Brew word.

MAH is like all of us here dedicated to the art of beer making ..... again no brew word.

MAH is not a snob, but he is certainly mature enough to recognise juvenile posts by super sensitive beer makers.

Jayse : What can I say. He is knowledgeable, genourous with his time and skill and always out to further the skills a beer maker can have. He makes a very nice All grain beer. 

It never ceases to amaze me how super sensitive the K&K bits and pieces beer makers can be. It almost seems with the cries of derision that you recognise the failinings of what you do? Now I'm only thinking out loud here and I am probably wrong on this. But it does appear as the Bard once said He doth protesteth too much!

Please don't presume to envoke the snob card on us as All grain brewers because you are unhappy with your lot. You don't know us, you don't know how often we open our homes to kit beer makers so they can see first hand if they wish to travel a very different road. You have committed the cardinal sin of presumption.

I will always prefer an All grain beer but where possible I will offer any advice a beer maker wants or asks for to develop his skill.

I do not care if you make beer from a kit or whatever. When you want to make it the tradionally accepted way by mashing the grain yourself, and you may never, I hope you enjoy the process as much as the beer.

And if you live here in Adelaide and are currently K&K beer making and want to learn more about the process contact me off list I will be happy to share a brew day with you.

Steve.


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## wee stu (9/11/04)

My incipient, borrowed and begged brury owes it's existence to the help of great brewers, and growing friends, on this forum.

Without advice, ingredients, recipes and equipment (borrowed, bought and bequeathed) from the likes of MAH, Chiller, Jayse, Big D, Darren, GMK, Crispy, Pedro and others (failing to mention you is no slight, you know who you are) I'd be a thousand light years from even contemplating all grain right now.

None of these guys, or any of the other all grain brewers I've had the pleasure to meet in the last few months has been anything other than supportive, positive and encouraging. 

Starting from responses to simple queries on bulk priming to helping me cobble together an all grain brury of sorts, the AHB community has carried me along each step of the way. And never denegrated where I was, brewing wise, either.

So, if you are into kits, kits and bits or whatever, don't get put off by some ribald banter in a thread like this. There's only one goal, making better beer. And this is a great place to pick up hints on how to 

awrabest, wee stu


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## ozdevil (9/11/04)

Since i Started Homebrew back early this year i have found the homebrewing community excellent and prolly one of the best communities to be involved in...

I have met a few agrainers i have met a few partial mashers as well as the kits and bits brewers and amongst it all i have never found a bit of snobbery amongst the community of homebrew community

unfortunately i havent been able to get to any brew days that adelaide has had to offer the homebrew community due to my working commitments 

Mind i think MAH was just talking tongue in cheek and basicly having ago at this particualr topic he probably could have used the emoticans....sometimes we all can misread how someone is talking as with words on a screen can be read in several different ways people are always going to be taken the wrong way...

I really think its time to put this topic of disscussion to bed as its not really worth the crap whats gone in this topic 

anyway cheers and beers to extract/partial and all grainers 

ozdevil


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## jayse (9/11/04)

Well its been fun. Must say i don't think GMK posted this thread with the best of intentions and purposely tried to mislead you guys to think we are arse holes.

Happy 'Brewing'
Jayse


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## big d (9/11/04)

personally i would like to see gmk/ken banned from this site until he stops posting useless topics like this.it starts stupid arguments that will linger for along time.
i dont bash k and k partials or what ever.ive been there done that and have always sort a better beer which is why im an all grain brewer.for me it is the pinnacle of homebrewing/craftbrewing.and another beaut skill you pick up along the way is sorting out an array of gear to make that first all grain brew and that can be an accomplishment on its own rights.the first beer you taste from the equipment you made or had help with will make the long journey even sweeter providing the first beer turned out ok.it does i believe give you the right to say im a brewer because i made the gear and i brewed it.


cheers
big d

yes yes yes yes yes yes yes


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## Kai (9/11/04)

I'm a real dump & stirrer. I can even simmer.


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## fishard (9/11/04)

Chiller,

at the risk of getting it wrong.........I am taking it that it was my reply you just posted to??? ( as I introduced the word snobbery)

mate if so I think you my have taken it wrong please read past the word snobbery



> I can see how Flanbos could read a bit of snobbery in some posts but hey I don't know you blokes well enough to judge it any other way than a bit of a shit stir!



Cheers-Russ


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## dicko (9/11/04)

As I have stated many times, take your hobby of brewing to YOUR OWN LEVEL.

My vote, if at all important, would be YES, but that does not mean that i think any less of a kit beer maker.
I was a kit beer maker myself until I visited Grumpy's and then had my first all grain session with Jayse, and of course subsequently with many others on this forum.
As most of you know, i have since built my own brewery and I am proud of my efforts as one would expect, in that area.
I have many friends who make beer from kits and their main comments regarding my methods are that it seems like a lot of trouble to go through "just to make beer".
That is their opinion, and they are entitled to it.
But then I get questions like, " What can I add to my beer making process that will make my beer taste better?"
I try to help them with honest and accurate advice with processes like steeping "crystal" and choices of different yeasts, but I dont put them down if they choose not to go that way.
I dont go into "pantry additions" or any other radical ingredients, but try to stick to the basics.

Ken,
If I were new to beer making I would be extremely confused at times when I read some of your additions and some less than accurate advice and while you are entitled to put what you like into your own beer and make it from whatever method you choose, I feel that the advice you give at times is less than helpful to a person just starting out.

In my opinion, the starting of this poll on this forum is also less than helpful in the interest of home and craft brewing and has no place here, and if it stems from discussion on chat forums then leave it there.
I mean no animosity to any who don't brew AG beers and will remain as helpful as I can to all on this forum but this poll is out of line in keeping with the friendly nature of AHB and I suggest Ken, that you leave your disagreements on the chat section.

Cheers


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## Batz (10/11/04)

MAH was having a stir no two ways about that  

Well I suppose he hooked one at least :lol:


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## fishard (10/11/04)

> Well I suppose he hooked one at least



could be a new title in that..........MasterBaiter.....  :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## GMK (10/11/04)

jayse said:


> Well its been fun. Must say i don't think GMK posted this thread with the best of intentions and purposely tried to mislead you guys to think we are arse holes.
> 
> Happy 'Brewing'
> Jayse


 i am a bit disapointed in your coments.
I never listed any one by names in the original post - there was no purpose or misleading that was intended - sorry you took it that way.

I also had no idea of the passions that would be aroused/ignited by this poll.
I disagreed with you guys saying i was not a brewer and that only All Grainers are Brewers....

I asked the question in the poll to see if I was out of line and had it wrong.

That was it - I did not go down any paths to make it personal etc.

I have more respect for All Grain Brewers - as the time, trouble, knowledge, effort etc they put into their craft and making Beer is alot more.

But i still think of myself as a brewer, and i am proud to be a BREWER....

Perhaps as Dicko suggested - this should have stayed on the chat.....


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## Snow (10/11/04)

dicko said:


> In my opinion, the starting of this poll on this forum is also less than helpful in the interest of home and craft brewing and has no place here, and if it stems from discussion on chat forums then leave it there.
> I mean no animosity to any who don't brew AG beers and will remain as helpful as I can to all on this forum but this poll is out of line in keeping with the friendly nature of AHB and I suggest Ken, that you leave your disagreements on the chat section.


 I don't know, Dicko. I kind of disagree with what you say here. We are all adults and a bit of debate is cool with me, as it helps people get things off their chests that may have been simmering for a while. I think Ken's intentions with the poll were a little inflammatory, which appears to be his nature, but that's ok - this is a homebrewing community forum where people can speak their mind and share ideas and knowledge, it's not part of a Tafe module for beginner brewers. Ken's intentions weren't to start a flame war, much as the trolls on another well-known forum do, but to express his opinion and see if anyone else agrees with him. Having said that, I don't think arguments about K&K v AG will drive away any new brewers, rather I think the passion displayed by people regarding their style of brewing might serve to pique their interest a little and encourage them to do more research into different methods of brewing. 

And in response to a few earlier posts, no one in this topic has "put down" K&K and extract brewers, and no one has said that they can't make award-winning world class beers. Unfortunately the same courtesy has not been aforded to all-grain brewers. There has been no snobbery displayed, but there sure has been a few inferiority complexes exposed. The principal argument in this topic is about the definition of "brewing", (which is a fair argument to have and is deserved of this great forum, I reckon) and not about which method is better. 

Ahhhh....that feels better! Now let's all go brew some fine beer!  

Cheers - Snow


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## MAH (10/11/04)

flanbos said:


> Unless you actually grow every thing yourself



People who grow primary products such as barley and hops are FARMERS



flanbos said:


> and are involed in every single aspect of ever ingredient of every process



Here I presuming you're refering to the malting process, these people are called MALTSTERS

I never claimed to be a farmer or a maltster. I claimed to be a BREWER.

According to my handy copy of the Oxford Concise Dictionary to brew is to make beer by infusion, boiling and fermentation. It's a 3 step process (note this excludes farming and malting). Therefore if you are not infusing water with grain, boiling the wort and fermenting the wort, you are not a brewer.

This is a highly pedantic perspective, but if AHB members are going to engage in ridiculous polls like this they must expect that some of us S^!# stirring pedants will crawl out of our holes to poke a bit of fun.

Having said all of this I must also claim to be a piss taker. However no-one should take my comments personally (or seriously), as I was taking the piss out of this thread and not any individuals (oh, except Ken for starting this stupid inflamatory topic  ).

Cheers
MAH
AKA Mark Aidan Hopps


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## quincy (10/11/04)

I am brand new to home brewing (as can be seen by my number of posts !!!). I check out this forum everyday and can not begin to tell you how much I have learnt. 

This particular topic has been interesting and has compelled me to post.

Everyone here is extremely passionate aboout their craft whether they are AG'ers or extract brewers. Hell, I'm even passionate about it and I haven't even tasted my first batch. (still in the racking bin !!).

I have "brew" respect for anyone who has more knowledge than me irrespective of how they brew - so I guess for me I don't give a toss how a "real brewer" is defined!! 

I think it's all about the passion for the "craft". 

If this passion was the criteria to define a real brewer - then welcome fellow real/true/master/kin of the world brewers!!!!!!


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## deebee (10/11/04)

I don't know why Ken wanted to know what people think of him and I think most of these posts are just healthy shit-stirring and good for the forum, but for anyone getting too serious...

Whats real mean? You mean like get a real job or something? i.e. your job (religion, nationality, car, wife, brewing technique) is not as good as mine.

Phew... there are some people who agree that there are other people inferior to us. I can feel better about myself now.

Aussie Home Brewer

Aussie: self-deprecating, anti-authoritarian, anti-elitism, having a laugh.
Home: warmth, sharing, friends, family.
Brewing: from dump and stir to point and click and all points in between, allowing yeast to make beer out of wort you had a hand in preparing.

cheers


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## Jazman (10/11/04)

Im a proud All grain brewers and used to make kits and good kits but dont mean u cant make good beer.

Also if you cant ferment a kit beer forget doing an all grain brew

also most swill beers are fermented from grain and all thbe old brew from grain 
so i think that is real brewing o lot more can go wrong

but still u can make good beer with kit u just have less control


brew how u like but it my opion so dont get upset it spose to be hobby have fun and aspire to make beer and most ag will love to help u make better beer


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## datfrog (10/11/04)

Well not wanting to Sound Blunt. 

Dont the pompus ones amongst us whom think this have some beer to "BREW". 

Seriously If the precious person/s whom said that Extract brewers are not brewers are not happy with Dump and Sitrs Calling themselves brewers they better get a nother hobby. 

Mummy will be home soon, It will be OK........Whingers


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## Jazman (10/11/04)

> Dont the pompus ones amongst us whom think this have some beer to "BREW".
> 
> Seriously If the precious person/s whom said that Extract brewers are not brewers are not happy with Dump and Sitrs Calling themselves brewers they better get a nother hobby.
> 
> Mummy will be home soon, It will be OK........Whingers



Well mate us all grainers dont think we are better than you extract beer makers or have clam to be it OUR opionon it not real brewing and i used to brew kits until i had my first parial and thought it was so much better than my kits plus i like to experiment.

If u like to do extract and like it well do it is your beer 

to me it doenst matter what and prefer my wayt and the all brewers on this forum will all give advice and try to help all to make better beer no elitism ect 

Its about time to put this to bed make you beer how u want to if its bad will it yopur fault but dont look for a af lame war when all we want to do is talk about home brew beer which is a hobby we love so much

plus if it wasnt for site like this i would not be ag brewer


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## Crispy (10/11/04)

Jazman said:


> Its about time to put this to bed




I agree Jaz, this is supposed to be fun.

Nuff said



Cheers,

Crispy


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## flanbos (11/11/04)

i think i may have given off the wrong impression with my post. i was in no way having a go at ag brewers....one day i hope to be one.

and im very aprriciate of all the healp i get from you guys and every other brewer on here

i do think this thread is one where we will keep chasing our tales over and over.

when i comes down to it we are all BEER MAKERS.... so i think the time has come to unit and fight the evil forces of crap beer that is the norm for most of the world h34r: 

GMk your such a trouble maker hahaha


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## Snow (11/11/04)

datfrog said:


> Well not wanting to Sound Blunt.
> 
> Dont the pompus ones amongst us whom think this have some beer to "BREW".
> 
> ...


 Datfrog, it sounds like you're the one being a little precious here. If you're going to be rude, then you're welcome to go back to the Grumpys forum and keep out of here. Just because people are debating a topic and expressing their opinions doesn't mean they are "pompous" or "whingeing". 

- Snow


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## johnno (11/11/04)

Im crying in my beer


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## Shed (11/11/04)

Admin/Moderators,

Can we delete this thread please!


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## Batz (11/11/04)

Agree nuke it


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## SteveSA (11/11/04)

A beer at 9.20am... That's dedication to the craft Johnno!


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## Guest Lurker (11/11/04)

Shed said:


> Admin/Moderators,
> 
> Can we delete this thread please!


 My only contribution to this thread is to second the motion to nuke it before it causes any more divisiveness.


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## MAH (11/11/04)

Shed said:


> Admin/Moderators,
> 
> Can we delete this thread please!


 No say it isn't so. We must keep this thread forever as a reminder of man's inhumanity to man.

If we hide from our past how will we avoid making the same mistakes in the future. 

Let GMK's poll serve as a lesson to us all that labels can hurt  

Cheers
MAH


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## Gough (11/11/04)

Let's get rid of it...

Shawn.


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## nonicman (11/11/04)

leaving the thread in place would ensure a similar thread doesn't develop in future.


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## Kai (11/11/04)

I vote for beer and sandwiches.


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## Doc (11/11/04)

jleske said:


> leaving the thread in place would ensure a similar thread doesn't develop in future.


 Taken on board.

Topic now locked. 

Doc


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