# New Brewery Build



## Moad

Hi all,

I currently run a more beer gas fired 3v HERMS rig. I am clearing out a section under the house, concreting the floor and turning into a dedicated brew space. This will be a long term project and as a part of the project I would like to build a new electric brewery to replace my existing gas rig (which will go up for sale in the next few months).

I would like to use the collective knowledge of this great forum and design then build my new brewery. Some features I would really like:


Hard plumped water (both hot and cold, pipes run through the brew area)
Exhaust fan to pull steam out from the brew space
No removable hoses, ie - hard plump pipes into the stand with valves to control flow
Automation where possible - BCS? control valves and pumps possible?
Temp controlled fermentor if possible (100L)
150L capacity kettle - currently run 100L kettle
Electric or natural gas however ventilation would be an issue with gas.
If pipes can be plumbed it should mean less spillage which means I should be able to get away with steel stand rather than stainless (rust protected).

is 3v herms the best option here? is 4v better? 

I'm mindful of budget but it isn't a priority, I want something that will meet my capacity requirements and last 10 years and if it means I have to wait another 6 months to save then so be it.

Any advice, ideas or designs would be much appreciated. I'll keep this thread to track any progress I make on the brew area and brew rig itself.

Cheers,

Nick.


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## mofox1

A designated wet area with in floor drain.... damn this would have been handy.


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## TheWiggman

Got some photos of the space or a hand drawn schematic? Will make it much easier to give worthwhile feedback.


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## Alex.Tas

My brew area is currently under my house too. 
I thought about an extraction fan, but decided against it as i just cut the stem of a pedestal fan down and hung it from the ceiling, so that it blows air across the top of the boil kettle. My kettle is only 2m from the open door and it is 40L capacity, so I imagine you would have a greater steam output than I do. Could be an option never the less and it saves a lot of messing around. 

Good lighting is also handy. I upgraded mine a while ago and it makes things a lot easier. Throw in a few extra power points too when you have your sparky in.



mofox1 said:


> A designated wet area with in floor drain.... damn this would have been handy.


This would also be brilliant, if it is reasonably achievable.


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## sponge

I'd have my hand up for electric over gas. After using both for a few years, I just like the set-and-forget of the electric and allows for more automation. I never felt comfortable leaving the kettle to boil on the gas without me being there to monitor.

What is the difference between 3V HERMS and 4V? HERMS is usually 4V anyways (HLT, Mash tun, kettle, HEX), unless you have the herms coil/HEX in the HLT, but it is much better having a small volume HEX in a separate vessel for ramp times and allows more flexibility with how you use your HLT.


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## mb-squared

an in-floor drain would be huge. but if you are under your house, that's probably going to be tricky? I have an electric 3V Herms setup with hard plumbed water (just cold), exhaust fan and relatively hard-plumbed lines (but I use silicone hoses as it allows me some flexibility if/when needed). I'd say the biggest challenge will be getting that exhaust fan plumbed in and getting enough power to the brewery. I have 2 32A circuits which allows me to run both of my 5500W elements simultaneously. I HIGHLY recommend this type of setup. While fly sparging, I can get my BK started while still being able to maintain the temps in my HLT, for example. And it seems that I always find myself taking advantage of the fact that I can run both elements simultaneously.

I've posted a few pics of my setup here: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/64130-show-us-your-brew-cave/page-23#entry1281774


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## Camo6

Wow, awesome project Nick.

Personally I'd go all electric with a 4v setup. Then there's no worries about running a burner in a confined space. Like mentioned above you'll run an extra element for 4v but these won't all run at the same time anyway unless you're doing back to back 100l batches!
What are you thinking in terms of power supply? Being below your house it shouldn't be too expensive to run a couple of decent circuits if not already available.
Progression pics a must!


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## MastersBrewery

Ultimate set up in my mind would be to use a continuous hot water system for HLT and possibly for the herms set up(or nevs hermit). Strike water done in 10 minutes! And probably kettles from stout tanks; all tri clover fittings simplify strip down and clean. Definitely dedicated 50 amp+ circuit in the brew space. Wet area floor drain would be a big big bonus.


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## mofox1

This is giving me awful/awesome ideas for the brewery in the next house. Ventilation, lights, plumbed water, B2B batches... golly.

As for the 3v/4v question, I have my coil in my HLT - 3v works very well for me.

You can fit a shite load of coil in a HLT (+15m) so your output wort temp is essentially guaranteed to be exactly the same as the HLT temp, meaning you only need to control the temp of the HLT. I don't find the ramp times too bad... last batch took 16min to raise the HLT temp from 54°C to 67°C (13°C rise) during recirc.

That said, I built my control panel to be able to control a separate HX element for when I get bored and want a 4v setup. h34r:


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## idzy

Moad, what a great idea for a thread! Get an idea of everyones bucket lists and then do it, I like your thinking...


Removable hoses, even if permanently plumbed will offer more flexibility
Solid state relays for elements are huge and will allow elements to be 'tuned' to temperature you are trying to maintain. My system pulses elements 1000 times per second and adjusts pulses to suite. For examples 300 times a second will set the element to 30% power. Really good, particularly for HEX.

Some things I have done that helped massively:

Plumbed hot/cold taps next to system with instantaneous
Plumbed electronic solenoids for hot and cold in addition to taps, used for HLT and Counter Flow Chiller activated by Panel.
Hose connection, with long hose and nozzle, that can fit to hot and cold (been amazing)
Plans:

Extraction fan/rangehood
Floor drain (will help heaps with my hose outs)
Tiled/laminated floor for ease of cleaning - currently cement sheet and decking
SS Trolley with 100 degree tilting pot stands for cleaning grain/trub from MLT/Kettle (have used before and is priceless)
Hope this helps and good luck with the build.


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## MastersBrewery

Have to agree with idzy tippy dump would have to figure into any MT over 50L (my back is screwed... wasn't 2 years ago), I've seen one that was winch driven, that would be awesome!


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## Moad

Thanks guys some awesome ideas already.

I run herms coil in hlt now and ramp times are pretty slow but I suspect that is due to the coil being too small.

The guy next door built the house so I'm waiting for him to come and tell me what needs to be done to make sure the house won't fall over when I start digging. If it is OK to dig I'll be starting very soon, pics to come soon. The space is pretty much 6m x 3m it is close to circuit board, hot water tank and cold/hot water pipes run through. 

In floor drain is possible but not sure about getting it into waste or if that is even required. There is a little door to outside that I'll rig up to get the grain/waste out. The whole area will be a wet area and I'll have a grain storage and milling area just outside. Just need to make sure the drain will work out.

So early days but happy I posted, I'll start with photos of the space once I talk to the guy next door. I need to research benefits of 4v over 3v.

Cheers fellas


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## idzy

Moad said:


> I run herms coil in hlt now and ramp times are pretty slow but I suspect that is due to the coil being too small.


Ramp times will be based on the temp of the HLT water. If the HLT water is ramping slowly, your coil will perform the same. However if you ramp your HLT water quickly, but then your MLT temp takes ages, you could be right... I would tip the former, because heating a bunch of water takes time, at least for me it does.


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## Moad

Even with a 10 degree difference it takes about 3 minutes per degree for MT to heat up. I end up direct firing it to give it a boost. Little bit unpredictable which bugs me


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## Moad

I've confirmed the brew space can be cleared, work begins in a few weeks.

First step is to remove a shelf that is in there which will take a day to dismantle.

Some ideas for the rig...

Bottom draining vessels to clean in place.
Agitated MT.
Bcs-460 to control and automate the brewery (research required).
Motorised ball valves.



Pulley to remove spent grain from the brewery. Could also be used to get kegs in and out to save my back.

I will be looking to create a separate fermentation room if space permits, using an old aircon, really just to counter the heat generated from fermentation...it would be 12-14 degrees in there at the moment and probably max 18 in summer.

I'll be planning to minimise manual handling as much as possible to save the back.

Will post some pics of the area next weekend when I start moving stuff out.


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## spog

A decent sized window for ventilation and light.


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## osprey brewday

I wish i had a floor waste /hob type area to wash out in like a shower recess or grated floor


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## Moad

There is a good sized window that opens onto the neighbours fence...light will have to be artificial as it is under the house. A fan will be needed to move air around as well.

What a "grate" idea and easily doable, I could just slope the slab into the center and put a grate there. I just need to make sure I can get the drain pipe into waste somewhere.

Edit:Have done a little bit of research on 4v and it looks like that will remove the cons of the HERMS coil in the HLT.

Have posted in the HERMS thread to see about sizing it up.

If I am aiming to knock out 120Litres so I am thinking

150L BK
120L MT
100L HLT
HERMS not sure yet
Do these volumes look about right?


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## husky

Moad said:


> .........
> Some ideas for the rig...
> 
> Bottom draining vessels to clean in place.
> Agitated MT.
> Bcs-460 to control and automate the brewery (research required).
> Motorised ball valves.
> ...........


Bottom draining vessels are the way to go, slight cone in the base so they are free draining. That's how I have made all mine and life is much easier.

Agitator MT sounds like overkill but good fun. Interested to see what you do here as I have done a bit of research into this myself for a future addition to my brewery. I have gone as far as wiring a VSD in the electrical panel ready for a drive of some sort. Are you thinking top or bottom mount agitator?

If you're prepared for a big learning curve and have the time and $$ I can highly recommend running a small PLC for brewery control. Endless flexibility and functionality. and very rewarding to see working! I have done a lot of learning in this area over the past few months and have one 99% up and running, happy to help out in this area if you go this path.

Motorised valves - I know ball valves are cheap however I deleted them all from my brewery years ago after seeing what builds up in the cavity behind the seals. An electronically actuated butterfly valve would be great here but I have had no such luck finding one small enough and wend manual butterflys over motorised ball valves.

Sounds like a great project!


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## Moad

The agitator is a bonus feature that will likely come later, definitely not a requirement. I hadn't really considered bottom mount, had a vision of top mounting an agitator.

Thanks for the tips on the ball valves, automation is a feature I am keen on but in the end it is about the beer so don't want to sacrifice on cleanliness etc. I'll do some research into this area.

Time is probably the biggest issue with the PLC, I have a few electrical engineer mates that would help out though. Will do a bit of reasearch here too.

With regards to automation and control, I had a vision of programming the brew and walking away to come back to chilled wort in the fermentor. I am realising I need to think exactly how I want brew day to go (do I actually want to fully automate) as it affects everything from the earliest part of design phase. I may dial it back to manual valves, manually filling HLT and MT, manually moving wort around or somewhere in between these two levels of automation.

Your rig looks great Husky, sounds like you are constantly improving it too!


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## spog

Moad said:


> There is a good sized window that opens onto the neighbours fence...light will have to be artificial as it is under the house. A fan will be needed to move air around as well.
> 
> What a "grate" idea and easily doable, I could just slope the slab into the center and put a grate there. I just need to make sure I can get the drain pipe into waste somewhere.
> 
> Edit:Have done a little bit of research on 4v and it looks like that will remove the cons of the HERMS coil in the HLT.
> 
> Have posted in the HERMS thread to see about sizing it up.
> 
> If I am aiming to knock out 120Litres so I am thinking
> 
> 150L BK
> 120L MT
> 100L HLT
> HERMS not sure yet
> Do these volumes look about right?


With the floor grate to save some money if you can't afford a plumber to hook it to the sewer, and of course not running shit loads of water and chemicals into the floor grate,dig a trench allowing for adequate fall in the pipe ( drainage) dig a large ish hole and as deep as you can , half fill it with 1/4 inch gravel then bung and elbow on the drain pipe and add a length of pipe to get the end of it down to gravel.
Then back fill with gravel around the drain pipe up to 200 mm or so from the top,lay some plastic over the gravel and back fill with dirt to keep any soil/ dirt being washed down to the gravel and blocking the drainage.
Run the drain out to the garden area it'll help keeping the garden green.


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## MastersBrewery

Auto fill wouldn't be overly difficult, flow meters would probably be more accurate than the average Chinese made measuring jugs most of us use. Though I have to say complete automation has it's draw backs, I spent a lot of time on the brewtroller forum when it was still a pup, in the end I think only 3 or 4 rigs ended up any where near set and forget. I've only see 3 full scale commercial breweries, Wayward being the most recent and most automated(not PLC), and the lads there will be running their bums off come brew day. Yeah PLC would probably make their day easier but only a little, everything being done by a controller should be being overlooked by a brewer, unless you like tipping beer, or breaking expensive kit; you check as each step starts and finishes. I usually watch some sport and play pool while "matho's controller" brews my beer right next to me.

I do like where your going with this and like you I've stuffed my back( spent most of last week without feeling in my foot); for the moment my project list is on hold till I get it sorted. Worse brew day now requires helpers for any lifting, so I'll be watching to see if you solve some things I might use down the track.

cheers
MB


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## husky

Moad said:


> The agitator is a bonus feature that will likely come later, definitely not a requirement. I hadn't really considered bottom mount, had a vision of top mounting an agitator.
> 
> Thanks for the tips on the ball valves, automation is a feature I am keen on but in the end it is about the beer so don't want to sacrifice on cleanliness etc. I'll do some research into this area.
> 
> Time is probably the biggest issue with the PLC, I have a few electrical engineer mates that would help out though. Will do a bit of reasearch here too.
> 
> With regards to automation and control, I had a vision of programming the brew and walking away to come back to chilled wort in the fermentor. I am realising I need to think exactly how I want brew day to go (do I actually want to fully automate) as it affects everything from the earliest part of design phase. I may dial it back to manual valves, manually filling HLT and MT, manually moving wort around or somewhere in between these two levels of automation.
> 
> Your rig looks great Husky, sounds like you are constantly improving it too!


Likewise I want to add an agitator at a later stage just for fun, I prefer the under mount idea to keep grease etc from potentially falling in the brew but it is more work and more $$.
I rekon I spent about 150 hrs learning to set up and program my PLC, mostly nights and spread over quite a few months. That's going from knowing a minimal amount(basic ladder knowledge but never programmed before) to having a fairly detailed program and HMI setup that would do as much as any commercial brewery. Includes PID loops and temp ramp and hold, trends, lots of alarms and process monitoring.
Correct me if I'm wrong but there would not even be too many examples of commercial brewery's that utilise the level of automation you are chasing? It could definitely be done but it would be expensive and take most of the fun out of brew day? I think you still want to be watching and checking each step. Have you seen any brewery's that operate the way you want yours to?


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## Mr B

Can you get 1/2 inch butterfly valves? Had a bit of a search and no good


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## husky

I have never seen a hygienic butterfly valve smaller than 1". Ball valves are not hygienic if thats a priority. You can get a ball valve with a cip flush in the cavity but super expensive and not in 1/2".


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## Moad

Haven't seen that level, I'm a techie and I think it was a case of doing it as a challenge/project without too much thought. Now it is time to design I'm second guessing myself.

I think my priority should be making brew day easy rather than automatic. Turning a valve and filling vessells isn't hard to do, emptying 60kg grain with a swinging MT will make life a hell of a lot easier. This is the reason I started this threadthread, collective wisdom come at me.

I was thinking I could control the fill with an adjustable float switch easy enough too.

I'm leaning towards the bcs now, seems easy enough to get up and running with a semi automated system.


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## Mr B

husky said:


> I have never seen a hygienic butterfly valve smaller than 1". Ball valves are not hygienic if thats a priority. You can get a ball valve with a cip flush in the cavity but super expensive and not in 1/2".



Hmm yeah the ball valves require cleaning, had a few green bits come out of mine previously, it is what it is...


cheers


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## Moad

I've been looking into the automation side of things, BCS vs Brewtroller vs PID vs PLC.

my concern is if I design a brewery around a BCS or Brewtroller and it goes bang, I will have to completely rebuild it with PID's etc if they are no longer available.

I'm now thinking I will take it right back to PID manual control along the lines of the electric brewery. The remote control and monitoring that comes with the brewtroller and BCS would be great but in the end it is about making beer for me.

PLC's are over my head, I don't really have the time to invest in setting one up. There are plenty of resources on the electric brewery and could be built using readily available generic parts.

Thoughts?


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## husky

Electric brewery style is good for KISS and you just want to make beer
PLC is good is you like playing with new toys and want endless functional possibilities. A PLC will also give you trends which it sounds like you wanted in your posts above. These are great for tracking exactly what the mash temperature profile is from brew to brew. Like most things it comes down to time and money.


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## Moad

I would like that stuff but PLC is a big time investment, or alot of favours to EE mates! 

I could build with PIDs and add the PLC later to control right?

What advantage would PLC give me over the BCS?


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## MastersBrewery

Motorised valves can be used with just a switch, however there is no proportional control; that is they are either on or off. I will eventually head back down the 2/3/4V path again(shhh h34r: ) and I'd probably got PID's and the soak ramp model from Auber would be on the list.


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## Moad

I'm using the soak ramp on the 1v and am happy with it. Matho's/Lael's might have been a better option for a little extra $.

I wonder how reliable the BCS is and how long they will be around. I like the features my one concern is the durability and options if it died. PLC is too heavy on time required for me.


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## mb-squared

Moad said:


> I'm using the soak ramp on the 1v and am happy with it. Matho's/Lael's might have been a better option for a little extra $.
> 
> I wonder how reliable the BCS is and how long they will be around. I like the features my one concern is the durability and options if it died. PLC is too heavy on time required for me.


I use a BCS-460 and find it to be a really good piece of kit. Essentially 6 PIDs in one. As far as reliability goes, I've never had a problem with mine. In terms of support, well, just received this email today!

----------------------------
This message is announcing the final release version of the 4.0 firmware.
This is production ready firmware ready to be used on any existing BCS
device.
Firmware download and additional information is available on the forum:
http://forum.embeddedcc.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2730
Please see the new user manual available at: http://docs.embeddedcc.com/
The 4.0 firmware is a complete rewrite from the 3.x series firmware. The
major differences are:
- Totally redesigned responsive UI
- REST / JSON based API to make developing for the BCS much easier
- Some functionality has been moved out of the firmware to utility
application suite
- Data Logging re-imagined to make it easier for 3rd party logging
applications to log data, but on-device logging is more minimal
- No Manual Mode or HMI. HMI is planned for a future release, at this time
there is no plan for Manual Mode to return.
Regards,
The BCS Team



seems to me that they are active and expanding. but no one can be 100% sure I guess...


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## Moad

Looks that way, thanks for the post.

Would be almost cheaper to go with the BCS than to buy the ramp/soak and a couple of non ramp/soak PIDs. 

BCS looking good again. I may need to ask a mod to tidy up this post once I make my mind up haha

I was thinking I could put an adjustable (manually) float switch on the HLT and MT to control fill levels. I am guessing a dedicated HERMS vessel would just stay full?


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## Moad

Ok so I think I am settled on the BCS, I can source a spare further down the track if they look like they might dissapear. 

I had no idea how much is involved in designing a HERMS system... HEX size, process flow, probe placement etc.

Looks like I'll be getting familiar with the HERMS thread over the next week or two.


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## cke11y

I had similar thoughts about PLCs (well commercial controllers which are just PLCs). If it helps you further, I believe there will always be a brew controller on the market. It may not be the one you had before, but shouldn't take too much to alter your panel to suit another controller!

I went with brewpi. It's pretty great and very easy to wire. Software a bit to be desired for now. But will get good quickly. 

Tri clamp! I have automated valves on water side of brewery and tri clamp (and butterfly valves) everything that touches wort. I would definitely look at stout kettles. Thinking I'll get one of their bottom draining models next.


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## S.E

spog said:


> With the floor grate to save some money if you can't afford a plumber to hook it to the sewer, and of course not running shit loads of water and chemicals into the floor grate,dig a trench allowing for adequate fall in the pipe ( drainage) dig a large ish hole and as deep as you can , half fill it with 1/4 inch gravel then bung and elbow on the drain pipe and add a length of pipe to get the end of it down to gravel.
> Then back fill with gravel around the drain pipe up to 200 mm or so from the top,lay some plastic over the gravel and back fill with dirt to keep any soil/ dirt being washed down to the gravel and blocking the drainage.
> Run the drain out to the garden area it'll help keeping the garden green.


Reading through this thread and regarding the floor drainage this is more or less what I was going to suggest.

I would dig a soakaway pit about 1 square metre fill it with old bricks or rubble and run the drain into it. Then cover the top with gravel and a sheet of plastic and level it off with 300 cm soil.

If it is difficult to get a fall into a sewer or soakaway pit how about building a sump into your floor and using a submersible pump?


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## Moad

I use a submersible pump to pump water outout of the area (from a hole I dug) now. I was planning to dig a drain out anyway so will look at what is there and what I can do with it once I start digging. Could setup some kind of catchment for grain and yeast etc and just empty it if it gets smelly. 

Ideally I'll be able to go straight into waste but there are definitely options


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## jimmy_jangles

i don't really have much to offer in the way of what gear to use for automation, but as an electrician in a coal mine in the last few years ( i'm not anymore tho) that was trying to run everything on automation, for **** sake do not just set and forget, no matter how good/reliable you think the gear is. Nothing ever runs perfect all the time and electric gear is just waiting for you to turn your back to bite you in the ass. Many a shift spent on a shovel digging out a conveyor belt that got buried in coal haha


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## spog

Moad said:


> I use a submersible pump to pump water outout of the area (from a hole I dug) now. I was planning to dig a drain out anyway so will look at what is there and what I can do with it once I start digging. Could setup some kind of catchment for grain and yeast etc and just empty it if it gets smelly.
> Ideally I'll be able to go straight into waste but there are definitely options


Yep a sump built to hold for example a cut down bucket that will capture. any solids swept or washed into the sump,and an over flow pipe set slightly higher than the top of the sump to allow for the water.
As for any of the solids in the sump just dig a hole in the garden and dump the solids then cover over with soil.
Good for the garden.


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## Moad

The downstairs space is not looking good, had a structural engineer check it out to be 100% confident before I started digging. Preliminary estimate is 7k + which would start eating into the rig budget. The mrs is talking about moving in the next few years so doesn't want to spend the coin on the house. So I figure I will focus my energy on the rig and it can move with me or can move downstairs at a later stage.

On the hardware side of things I have started building a hex with 6-7m of copper coil and a 7.6L bigw pot. I will use this to heat sparging water for my 1v as well which is why I went a bigger pot) I'll try and get a 6kw element in this if I can find a suitable element. Nothing exciting to show here yet, have ordered a few bits and pieces and will have some pics over the weekend time permitting.

I have settled on the BCS 462, I went the 462 over the 460 as I intend on running motorised ball valves so will need the extra outputs the 462 provides. Order placed with 3 x 4inch probes (HEX, Return to MT and HLT) and 1 x 6 inch probe to read the grain bed temp. 

Planning to pick up 2 x chugger pumps to move liquid around.

Will probably settle on a 5500w ULD and a 3500w ULD for the Kettle with voltage control on the 3500 to adjust boil if required, 2400w (have one) plus another 4500w on the HLT (to fit on a 32a circuit) and a 6000w in the HEX. Haven't really started designing the circuitry but I think these are enough power for 100L knockout.


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## real_beer

Moad said:


> The downstairs space is not looking good, had a structural engineer check it out to be 100% confident before I started digging. Preliminary estimate is 7k + which would start eating into the rig budget. The mrs is talking about moving in the next few years so doesn't want to spend the coin on the house. So I figure I will focus my energy on the rig and it can move with me or can move downstairs at a later stage.


Have you ever thought of building a mobile brewing room you can move from house to house? Quite a few people these days make homes out of Shipping Containers, or maybe you could even use an old mobile ATCO Construction Office shed.

Some of the floor coatings you can paint or spray on these days would make them easy to hose and clean out. I've not looked into it at all myself but you'd be the perfect person to evaluate such a magnificent idea :lol:


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## Moad

The garage will have to do for now mate, costs are escalating quickly! haha

Here is my plan...





1. Fill HEX Manually
2. Fill MT with Grain
3. Activate BV1-2 until water reaches Float HLT1
4. Close BV1-2 and turn on HLT elements
5. HEX water set by Probe HX to first step temp
6. Elements stay on until temp reached at probe HLT1 for mash in temp
7. HLT Elements off, BV2-2 open, BV3-3 open on HLT side, pump 1 on for dough in
8. When Float HLT2 off then close BV2-2, turn BV3-3 to MT in and recirc, Alarm to signal empty HLT
9. Adjust Float HLT1 to sparge level and open BV1-2 until reached
10. HLT Elements heat to sparge temp (will need to balance with Element HX for power consumption)
11. Element HX now controlled by Probe HXR for mash time and ramps
12. Mash done - BV4-3 changed to MT > BK and BV3-3 changed to HLT > MT and pump 2 on MT > BK for sparge
13. Sparge until Float HLT2 off, close BV2-2, pump 1 off
14. Alarm to signal start of sparge, Pump until MT empty , turn off pump 2 (manual push button which is the reason for alarm)
15. Boil (manually start timer) and change BV5-3 to BK side
16. Timer up - BV7-2 open, pump 2 on, BV6-3 open on BK side for whirlpool for 10-15 minutes
17. Change BV6-3 to Chiller and pump 2 stays on until complete


edit: With this design assuming I have not missed something obvious.. I can mill grain and put into MT and set volume for Strike water then I will need to come back and adjust the float in the HLT for sparge fill. Then i am hands off until boil time. I think this is a nice amount of automation.


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## MastersBrewery

So if I got this right you have 11 actuated valves, just don't forget manual valves post pump for flow control. Looks good I'd forgotten just how much was in these systems.


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## Moad

7 actuated, 4 3-way and 3 2-way. I believe the 3way valves are on one output and it would be normally open to one side with some voltage changing to the other. Yep manual valve going into HEX and into BK to control flow rates. Cheers MB can't wait for the bcs to turn up


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## cke11y

It's really hard to restrain myself from taking this thread off-topic due to how excited I am about the concept of mobile brew rooms as suggested by real_beer. I kind of wish I didn't have a 7x5m brew and bar space so I could justify designing one!

Anyway...

Are you concerned about how many auto-balls you have wort flowing through? Is it possible to at least remove them from your cold side? I reckon you'll do 6 brews, take a peak in one of your valves and will actually exclaim "Oh shit". Can you get auto balls that you can tear down yet?


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## MastersBrewery

I remember 3way valves being way too exy at one point you could get 3 normal motorised valves for the price of one 3 way. With the BCS you can setup an automated cleaning run, though pull down once in a while would be handy.


----------



## cke11y

For me, even if I hit and held a set of auto-balls with hot caustic, then flushed, then sanitised, I would still be worried.

They harbour nasties like nobodies business, and there is too much shadowing in them to CIP even slightly. 

I'd inspect every brew, and if possible pull the ball and seals out and give a really quick PBW clean. This would be a mission though, even if they tore down easy, when you have a lot of them.


----------



## Moad

I hear you but they aren't all THAT expensive relative to the whole build. I mean I run ball valves now and haven't stripped my rig down now in over a year with no ill affect to the beers I am making.

I have no doubt if I pulled mine apart there would be all sorts of shite in there. Some more knowledgable and experienced brewers will probably correct me here but I don't think it has much of an impact on the product. It gets boiled for 60-90 minutes and then close to boiling sodium perc and a quick run of starsan through after each brew.

Haven't had the price come through for the 3-ways yet so I may use two 2-ways and a tee piece instead of the 3's. But then I will be pushing outputs on the BCS. If it isn't ridiculous I'll just go for the 3-ways, buy once and I am setup then. Unless the gunk in the BV's becomes an issue as cke11y points out.

I am planning on hard plumbing (not 100% decided yet) if I can so a cleaning run is a good idea.

I need to start looking at pots, stout tanks look pretty nice but it will cost me $3k + to get them here and they don't have the configurations I want. I think I could buy some pots and have the fittings welded exactly as I like for much much cheaper. Any suggestions?


----------



## MastersBrewery

The guys at stout will custom any changes for you, just note going all TC fittings will add up real quick. But upside is sanitary connections, semi hard plumbed, quick and easy to pull down. I haven't seen actuated TC valves though I'm sure they're out there. There are a few epic builds on HBT (check the gallery from the home page 'brew setups') you could look through to get some ideas. Then again you could hold off on the full TC plumbing till later down the track after you get to the new house. Something like this maybe http://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/images/1/6/1/5/0/11.jpg


----------



## Moad

Oh man that is one good looking rig and I'll be no doubt referring to that when it comes time to design the stand and plumbing. Pots are next, I'll need dimensions before designing the stand.

Still way expensive, surely it would work out cheaper to add your own attachments to pots?


----------



## spog

MastersBrewery said:


> The guys at stout will custom any changes for you, just note going all TC fittings will add up real quick. But upside is sanitary connections, semi hard plumbed, quick and easy to pull down. I haven't seen actuated TC valves though I'm sure they're out there. There are a few epic builds on HBT (check the gallery from the home page 'brew setups') you could look through to get some ideas. Then again you could hold off on the full TC plumbing till later down the track after you get to the new house. Something like this maybe http://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/images/1/6/1/5/0/11.jpg


Far out that is one mind blowing brewing rig !


----------



## MastersBrewery

when I think TC I think stout and when I think stout I think of 3 or 4 HBT build threads, no need to hate the Yanks, just hate the weak AU$ 2 years ago your rig would have cost 40% less :angry2:  :angry2:


----------



## cke11y

Theres a stout tank thats about 120L and has a bottom drain... would be a beautiful base for a setup. I was gonna go there but I got a bargain on a 114L blichmann.

I cannot recommend TC's highly enough. Totally worth the cash. I just brewed maybe my 6th time on my full TC setup and don't feel the need to even peak at my plumbing - I know its clean - and I'm OCD - well not really, but ball valves worry me. 

So.... Heres the thing:

Brewhardware.com (not to be confused with brewers hardware.com) sell a TC cap with a NPT thread tapped into it (after being bored out obviously). This would allow you to be fully TC very easily. I use one on the standard blichmann weldless bulkhead, my pump, and other bits here and there... you just get someone to weld them there, and clean it up real nice (theres pics online)... It's easy for me living in a big dairy region!

MAsters is right... you could hold off.. but the cool thing about TC is you can also just buy a bunch of stuff and it can be broken down, repurposed, re-passivated, re-cleaned, sanitised, used again for something, then stripped back again, etc, etc... You may just have some TC-barb>Silicon>TC-barb hoses for a while... no big deal!


----------



## cke11y

An addendum to my post above:

Making things 'sanitary' (i.e. sanitary-ish) at home-brew level using these tapped caps from brew hardware only really works if you have an item with male threads... not sure you can get auto's with male plumbing?????

Also... I like the pots from brewershardware - I think they might be a bit more economical than stout and they will customise. I'd still go bottom drain though if money was no option - not that I have experience, but I reckon they'd be much easier to clean.


----------



## MastersBrewery

also working with the BCS you may want to check this thread, little tips like opening valves 5 seconds before a pump starts are littered throughout and the OP customised the web interface and wrote it up. The learning never ends 

ED: And this one 

That's one of my fav's, you better half can kill me later h34r:


----------



## Moad

Hey MB,

You were right about the 3 way valves, they are 3-4 times the price of the 2 way.

If I was to use 2 x 2 way where the 3 ways are I would have 18 outputs including the 2 pumps and 5 elements.

Could I use one of the 6 PID outputs for just on/off to control one of the pumps?


----------



## cke11y

Hey moad you can get output extension boards for the bcs. 

Can't remember what they're called though... They're like a terminal block full of relays. Bcs forum will help you find em.


----------



## Moad

Yeah the digi16. Was hoping to avoid it iif possible but have fired off an email to get a price. My bcs hasnt been shipped yet so will add one if the cost isn't ridiculous. Will give me the option of controlling ferment as well


----------



## MastersBrewery

I'm thinking you'd most likely go to manual valves at the vessels, your manually filling, your HLT pump would then need priming so the valve at the vessel could just stay open. Check JonW's lay out using only 6-7 Actuated valves. The same for the MT, you probably want to be there mashing in( pro kit actually sprays water and grits into the mash tun together avoiding any dry spots or lumps) and when you start sparge; and the kettle, well your there for 0min additions anyway. To help add in the third MT pump. Each vessel it's own pump inlet, out put to a common rail. If you were to go the expansion, you could go completely nut with sensor etc. If I get the chance I'll draw up something up to give you some ideas.

More inspiration Bluto 555


----------



## MastersBrewery

Think I got my marc's mixed up though both used stout tanks but this system was epic and did a few things outside the box also uses BCS, he puts a different slant on heat exchange.


----------



## Moad

Not sure why the third pump is required. I guess it would remove the requirement for one valve. Id probably rather just remove the mains water ball valve and manually fill. That will remove the need for one of the float switches too I guess.


----------



## Pokey

Moad said:


> Hey MB,
> 
> You were right about the 3 way valves, they are 3-4 times the price of the 2 way.
> 
> If I was to use 2 x 2 way where the 3 ways are I would have 18 outputs including the 2 pumps and 5 elements.
> 
> Could I use one of the 6 PID outputs for just on/off to control one of the pumps?


You could use the output to drive a change over relay, energise 1 valve when output is off, energise the other when it is on. Obviously won't work if you need a neutral or closed position.


----------



## Moad

Might have to do something like that. The expander cards are discontinued and apparently we're a bit limited with what you could do with them.

I might just fork out for the 3 way valves... Will give me room on the bcs to expand into controlling ferment.

So glad I went the 462


----------



## Moad

Prices have come back for the valves...

4 x 3-way (stainless) and 3 x-2 way:

2-way Motorized ball valves Model: TOFINE-THA20T
1/2" BSP,Stainless steel,12V,CR2 02 (Normally closed)
3 PCS
$33.3 USD/PC

3-way Motorized ball valves 
1/2" BSP,Stainless steel,12V,CR2 02 (Normally closed)
4 PCS
$62.9 USD/PC

Shipping cost by DHL door-to-door: 90.5 USD 

So the total cost including shipping: 3*33.3+4*62.9+90.5=99.9+251.6+90.5=$ 442.0 USD

So around $600 delivered


----------



## MastersBrewery

Thats half a pallet of MO Damn!!!!!


----------



## Moad

hahah yeah, if I work for 3 hours for 2 brews while the brewery is doing it's thing (thanks to automation) then it is worth the $...

That's what I tell myself anyway


----------



## Moad

Update:

Pulled the trigger on the ball valves...

BCS still being built apparently, eta 3 weeks

Waiting for pay day to buy pumps and elements

Waiting on calls back from catering companies for stainless pots

Welding for fittings quoted

Once pots are sorted I will start on the frame design

I am going with barbs and hose for now, I may go to hard plumped later and am going to design the frame with this in mind.

Electrical design will start next week when I catch up with my mate who is an industrial sparky


----------



## SBOB

Moad said:


> Update:
> 
> Pulled the trigger on the ball valves...
> 
> BCS still being built apparently, eta 3 weeks
> 
> Waiting for pay day to buy pumps and elements
> 
> Waiting on calls back from catering companies for stainless pots
> 
> Welding for fittings quoted
> 
> Once pots are sorted I will start on the frame design
> 
> I am going with barbs and hose for now, I may go to hard plumped later and am going to design the frame with this in mind.
> 
> Electrical design will start next week when I catch up with my mate who is an industrial sparky


If you find a well priced local pot supplier let us know. Also, what elements you going with?


----------



## Moad

Camco elements, ulwd for the kettle and just cheap ones for HLT. 4500 and 3500 in both. I've got 2 x 2400w I already had, in the HEX.

The pots I have found at chefland are 399 and 345 for a 170L and 130L respectively. Waiting on a price for shipping. The guy said 1.2mm thick.

Finished the first attempt at a hex tonight, I'm reasonably happy with it but it isn't perfect. It is a proof of concept really, want to see if 4800w in 6L with the march 815-c will ramp 100L in a reasonable time. I can test with my current rig.

I'll probably redo it with straight ends and straight compression fittings into some couplers welded in if it works well. The compression fittings have a tiny tiny leak which bugs me, the elbows were a real bitch to get everything sealed which is why I went through the bottom on one of them.

Will post pics tomorrow


----------



## MastersBrewery

The standard camco has a steel base, the ones from brew hardware are stainless and only a few dollars more.


----------



## mb-squared

I got my SS Camco (5500W Ripple) here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/stainless-steel-heating-elements 

and they are as advertised. no rust!


----------



## mofox1

Hmm. You can get up to 8 for only $60 shipping... BB anyone


----------



## Moad

HEX, still not quite done. I stupidly drilled a small hole next to one of the elements that I'll need to get welded.

Also need to get the coupler for the probe compression fitting put in.


----------



## Mr B

mofox1 said:


> Hmm. You can get up to 8 for only $60 shipping... BB anyone


I'd probably be in if a 3600 and 2400 watt was available....

Edit: Sorry, looking good Moad


----------



## Moad

Elements and controller arrived today, I'll get the bcs hooked up on the network tonight for a play!

Purchasing pots and pumps this week, then the fun begins


----------



## Moad

Well there isn't much to look at yet but if anyone wanted to see a BCS interface...

check it out

username: bcs
password: toad


----------



## Moad

Pots ordered, pumps next. Valves a week off being delivered.

Anyone have any suggestions for cooling. I've used immersion and cfc chillers but not a plate chiller. Something with a small footprint would be good.


----------



## mb-squared

cfc all the way. way faster and more efficient than an immersion and doesn't clog like a plate. imo.


----------



## mb-squared

can't vouch for the vendor or the quality of the product, but it sure looks like a deal to me:

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Stainless-Steel-304-Counterflow-Wort-Chiller-Brewing-Equipment-Garden-Hose-Fittings/1017341_1553652140.html


----------



## Moad

Cheers mb.

I have a CFC already so will hang on to that, although it doesn't look like that blingin stainless one.

Next on the to do list is the false bottom for the MT. it will be a 55cm diameter pot and I am expecting it to hold up to 25KG of grain in the mash. Any ideas?


----------



## mb-squared

these are the boys to go with if you can swing it: http://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/store/False_Bottoms.html


----------



## Moad

Holy shit, $300 for one. 

What is a good option for the kettle? Just some kind of trub filter


----------



## droid

hey moad good stuff mate - one Q for ya, I am starting a herms build soon and wondering why so much power <edit - heat> in the hex?


----------



## Moad

The size of the mash basically. I'm not entirely sure it will work yet!

I'll be ramping 100L of mash wort plus the 7L of water in the hex, I had the two elements already so why not...


----------



## droid

fair enough too, thanks for the reply


----------



## Moad

No worries, the problem will probably be getting a good enough flow rate to transfer that heat without compacting too much. My MT is quite wide which should help overcome that.

I could also have the mash return half way up the side so as to agitate the mash. I'll start with the one return and may need to add the half way return later.


----------



## Moad

Pots arrived, pretty happy with them except for the lids - https://www.dropbox.com/s/fujg9ys70lbubyw/IMG-20151028-WA0005.jpeg?dl=0
Ball valves I am also happy with - https://www.dropbox.com/s/g6cvkrha2k0ui5m/IMG-20151028-WA0000.jpeg?dl=0

Looking at the norcalbrewing (Jaybird) false bottom for the MT, at $400 delivered I will be only getting one. Will come up with something else for the BK.

I have the steel getting cut for the frame, will be going with a stainless top and cutting holes in the bottom to hide elements, hoses etc. Will put doors on the front to use as a bit of storage for bits and pieces when not brewing.

Next step is getting fittings welded to the pots and then putting the frame together. I can then start putting all the mechanical parts and plumbing together and focus on the electricals.

edit: post 1000!


----------



## mb-squared

Hi Moad, looks like things are coming along nicely. For the BK, I use one of these: https://utahbiodieselsupply.com/brewingfilters.php#brewfilter8x16

I've got the 300micron (8", you'll probably want the 10" version). You can probably source something similar locally these days (couldn't when I got mine). Just throw your hops in there and Bob's your uncle. For the pickup, I just have a 90degree (1/2") SS fitting, no screens or filters of any kind. I suppose I get a little trub into the fermenter, but very little and I never clog. Besides, a little trub is supposedly beneficial to the yeast. For the return, I have a 1/2" pipe that extends 'bout half way down the wall of the pot then takes a gentle turn horizontally. I can create a nice whirlpool with it if I don't have that bigass hop filter in there; with the filter, it ensures good recirculation of wort through the hop slurry inside the filter (if that makes sense).

probably better ways to do it, but it works for me and I'm happy with it.


----------



## Yob

whats the total cost thus far? whats the total output going to be? 150L or something?


----------



## Moad

I have a spreadsheet on my work pc will check but somewhere around 3.5k so far

Knock out 120L comfortably


----------



## Moad

I am going to get the fittings welded to the pots next week, first I wanted to ask about bottom draining vessels.

Is there anything I need to consider or is it just a case of sitting the false bottom in the MT then putting the outlet in the bottom? Same with BK? I'll likely fit a bazooka screen in addition to other measures in both vessels.

for the BK I'll probably put the outlet toward the side (bottom draining) so whirlpooling will move most of the trub away from the outlet. Will also have a hop spider to reduce the trub as much as I can.

edit: I have ordered the relay board for the ball valves, still need to find a 12v to 5v step down and buy pumps, false bottom and a few bits and pieces.

Hoping to run the first brew through early in the new year.


----------



## Moad

Just ordered a 21 - 4/16" (54cm) falsie with two handles for the MT and a 2 -1/4" stand. $474 delivered.... wow.

Pumps should be delivered this week.

Does anyone know of a 4 "tenticle" bazooka screen type arrangement?

I'll be away for a couple of weeks so progress is on hold until I am back.


----------



## mofox1

Half a gee for a false bottom... that's a serious commitment.

What was the reason for the (presumably) custom build, vs a $99 50cm domed jobbie from kk?


----------



## Moad

It's going to be holding some weight, also the more surface area (whole pot) will mean the weight and grain is distributed further reducing the chance of any stuck mash. More volume under the grain will reduce any vaccuum effect or at least hold it off longer. Its the same design as my current false bottom setup which works a treat. 

It isn't cheap but neither were the pumps, pots or any other part. I'm building something that will last me a long time so the money will soon be forgotten. It isn't like I'm not going to eat this week now either!

Edit: I am also running outlets through the bottom of the vessels


----------



## Moad

Back from holidays tomorrow, will be making some progress this weekend. Most parts will be waiting at home ready to start putting together.

Not sure wether to put elements vertical from the bottom or into the side. Through the bottom will make it easier to hide and route wiring but through the side means I can do smaller batches easier and not risk running elements dry. Thoughts?

edit:

I've cleaned out the garage (not much non ber related stuff left) and organised every thing ready for the build. It will go where the current 3V is and extend further along to the right a touch. I can't go too much further as the box there is the mains board. 

I need to move that small panel (for the 1v) and the big panel will probably go there if I don't attach it to the frame.

https://goo.gl/photos/FB1JGyHQgPaPTDJU8


----------



## Moad

The frame is under construction, should have the skeleton welded up properly on the weekend.

Will hopefully take the pots to get fittings welded tomorrow and then next week I can start putting things together! Control panel is still in the works so won't get to brew this year, hopefully by the end of Feb I'll be up and running.


----------



## Mardoo

You doing a tip frame on the mash tun?


----------



## Moad

Not at first, planning to build another frame around it that can pivot and tip back.

I'm going to run hoses underneath but will make the MT outlet and return QDs when the time comes.

I need to get it working first to sell the old one, then fine tune and keep improving it!

Edit: there will be a sheet of stainless on the "benchtop" too, hoses will be concealed aside from tap to HLT and HEX to MT then chiller to fermenter obviously. Will put doors on the front to store brew day equipment but also hide pumps and valves etc. They will be easily accessible if there are issues


----------



## Moad

Been a while since giving an update.

The pots are in with Tex n Oz getting welded up. All parts are in now and the bench is almost done. Electrical components and pots pending I should hopefully be up and running my the end of next month!!

Here is the frame blasted and primed.


----------



## Moad

And here it is painted...


----------



## Camo6

Looking good! What paint did you go with?


----------



## Moad

Just a matte black, not sure of what it is a mate is sorting it for me. He knows there will be some indirect heat (electric)


----------



## Camo6

Very nice mate. You certainly don't do things in halves!


----------



## Moad

Stand all but done, just putting on some door handles and its time to start bolting things on. This will be the challenging and fun part


----------



## Dazzbrew

Good stuff Nic!


----------



## Mr B

Mmmm very nice.

Where did you source the stainless top from? Is it wood wrapped?


----------



## Moad

Stainless was through a mate, he basically sorted the whole thing for me. In return I built him a keezer and will be filling it for a few months at least.

It's not wood wrapped but it is thick, there are supports where pots will be. I put my weight on an unsupported area and there is basically no flex in it. I am rethinking drilling through it, its pretty sexy!


----------



## Moad

Pots are looking like being completed in the next week or two. Electrical side is under way, the controller is all set up and ready to go. I have started putting together valves and pumps on the stand.

I just sold my old brewery including the chiller so am in the market for a replacement chiller. up to 140L batches and have a hop "basket" so I would say an immersion is out of the question... should I go a tube in tube style or plate chiller? Budget under $500 so glycol etc is out but a big plate chiller is a possibility.

Cheers


----------



## MastersBrewery

Moad said:


> Pots are looking like being completed in the next week or two. Electrical side is under way, the controller is all set up and ready to go. I have started putting together valves and pumps on the stand.
> 
> I just sold my old brewery including the chiller so am in the market for a replacement chiller. up to 140L batches and have a hop "basket" so I would say an immersion is out of the question... should I go a tube in tube style or plate chiller? Budget under $500 so glycol etc is out but a big plate chiller is a possibility.
> 
> Cheers


Really depends on how your going to exclude trub and hop matter. I did see an XL version of blichmans original kettle filtered pickup ( another HBT thread) basically pickup into a T bazooka extending 10 inches each way, covered with SS plate to create a damn. 


Apparently good for atleast 100L with hop spider you should be good to go with a plate chiller.

BTW where the hell are the pics!?!?!?


----------



## Moad

nice thanks MB. 

Not much has really happened yet. Once pots are up it should all unfold pretty quickly hopefully!


----------



## Moad

The old brewery is gone, tidied up and shuffled things around in preparation.

Still finalising the design, electrical stuff is happening and will have updates shortly.

For chilling I settled on 2 x 30 plate chillers in series. One with tap water and one with iced water. Still not sure whether to run it out in a single pass or to recirc back to kettle to drop below 80 and lock the late hops in. Probably go recirc option then run out to fermenter and at that point kick the iced water in on the second chiller.

Next step is to test 2 x march 815-C in parallel with a coil I am planning on putting into the HLT, to check flow rate. If flow rates are good then I am good to go.

Hot water system will be mounted to make brew day shorter and reduce power consumption.this will only run to HLT. Strike water, sparge and cleaning will be lots easier and faster with this in place.

If flow rates work out i am abandoning a dedicated HEX in favour of a coil. If flow rate is not sufficient then I will try a shorter coil, failing that I may revisit the HEX and combine it with a HLT Herm's coil.

Stay tuned


----------



## Moad

Flow rates of about 8LPM through the coil with small bore ball valves and non clamped hoses. I think that I could get that up to 10LPM.

I might need to shorten the coil and get a larger ID to speed up flow rates. Interestingly even with 2 pumps running from 2 separate outlets I was only pumping about 15LPM on each pump (no coil). The 815-C is rated at 30LPM. Had very little head, I can only assume it is the fittings that slow the pump rates down.

Need to figure out what this means for the build...


----------



## MastersBrewery

Moad those flow rates, are they with 1/2" silicone, you will see significant increase going to 3/4 even if only on the input to the pump.


----------



## Moad

1/2" silicone yep, 1/2" fittings on the pot I was testing on. I am going to have 1" tri clover on the brewery so should be able to get some tri clover > 3/4" hose barb.

There is a lot more to HERMS than I realised going into this...


----------



## Moad

I've changed my mind and decided to mount everything on the outside aside from dump ports and outlets at the bottom of the pots which will be hidden inside the brew stand. These will return out through the back wall (where pumps and valves are mounted). I decided I could do with the storage underneath and if there are issues on brew day it will be much easier to have everything accessible. Also much easier to dismantle for any cleaning or maintenance particularly if I hard plumb eventually.

I've only mounted one pump so far to use with my 1v while everything else comes together. The design has been finalised now with parts to be ordered this weekend. I've gone with 2" tri clover in the centre of the MT and BK for a dump valve, the MT will have a reducer down to 1" which will then be split to two pumps in parallel for a higher flow rate.

The picture is mainly to help with mounting everything as I have changed my mind a few times and had to cover some holes that were drilled prematurely (under the chillers).

The plan is to recirculate through the chillers with no water counterflowing from about 15 before the end of the boil to sanitise the chillers. Then kill the boil and open the tap water ball valve while continuing the recirculation. This will drop the temp to 80 degrees at which point the tap can be turned off and the pump will continue to recirculate to achieve a whirlpool. Now from there I need to test the effectiveness of the chillers, If I can run straight out into the fermenter using iced water in the second chiller I will, otherwise I will recirculate back into BK until at desired temp and then into fermenter.

I've decided to go with M12 connectors for valves and thermomter probes which will run to a panel on the stand and also have sockets on the control panel. This means I can have long cables to connect between the control panel and the brew stand so that I can wheel it around the garage to wherever I want to brew. I can also completely disconnect the stand and wheel it outside for cleaning or just out of the way to hose down the floor.

Things are starting to come together


----------



## MastersBrewery

Are you going to reclaim water from chiller 1 for clean up?


----------



## Moad

Yeah mate, will run it out into a drum or run it back to the HLT to use for cleaning or the next brew


----------



## Moad

The HWS is supposed to be going in to the HLT too, not the BK.


----------



## Moad

Updated to place the HWS above the HLT.

I've taken out the ball valve after the chillers and added a 4th pump I have as a dedicated chilling circuit. I can't see me getting enough force through the chillers to get a good whirlpool.

Will add a quick disconnect at the return to the BK on the chilling circuit which can be removed to run out into fermenters. I was worried about crap building up in that last 3 way valve and when changing the direction it would run out into the fermenters.

I can theoretically automate everything up to that point (aside from adding malt and hops) if I do decide to automate it that much.


----------



## husky

looking good mate, only thing I'll say about externally routing the pipework is it makes it harder to brew if you have little kiddies around. I chose to put mine all inside and put doors on the front so I don't have to worry if im stuck brewing during the day and the kiddies are playing in the shed with potentially hop pipework exposed.


----------



## Moad

Excellent point... my first is actually due today so I have a year or so before that is an issue. I could insulate any exposed pipework I guess

Still going to bottom drain out into pumps but back out will be external.

Fittings should be delivered and welded up next week then bring the pots home and hook her up and work out what is missing to finish it off


----------



## Moad

some action!

Pots have been welded, a few bits and pieces to be finished up by Bruce (Tex n Oz) with the welding side of things but it is getting closer!

Should have lots more photos when I bring everything home but here is one of the welds i polished up today, some fine work by Tex


----------



## Moad

Well the pots are home!

Time to work out what fittings I need yo get this thing going.

Huge thanks to Bruce aka Tex n Oz for the sweet welding job. He convinced me to go tri clover and I now can't imagine doing it any other way. This thread should liven up over the next few weeks as I complete the build.

View attachment 90231
View attachment 90232
View attachment 90233
View attachment 90234


----------



## Moad




----------



## Benn

Socks n thongs FTW!


----------



## Tex N Oz

That kit is looking very sexy Moad!!
We still have some work to do but in the end it's all worth it!


----------



## Moad

I couldn't resist posting some progress pics but yeah the probe in the BK is temporary, looking to weld in some more TC fittings for dial thermometers and moving that probe to the back of the BK.

Also could have tidied it up but was too excited to share the bling pics.

Thanks again Tex, absolute legend.


----------



## SBOB

I think I need to get rid of my gear and just contract brew through you


----------



## Moad

haha, the idea is I'll brew more volume less often. I seem to have more and more mates buying keg fridges though so the pipeline is getting stretched before I'm even up and running.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

Don't mean to snark, but I can't see the point in using Triclover then mounting them inside the vessel.

Surely the point of triclover is to eliminate threads and crevices in process contact, mounting them that way ensures you've got both.


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## mofox1

Said vessel looks to be a HLT with HERMS coil... external TC contact will be with (hot!) water only.


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## MastersBrewery

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Don't mean to snark, but I can't see the point in using Triclover then mounting them inside the vessel.
> 
> Surely the point of triclover is to eliminate threads and crevices in process contact, mounting them that way ensures you've got both.


Whilst TC's are generally used as you say as a sanitary fitting, they are also a great disconect. In any other fitment of that herms coil it would be a permanent fixture and a bastard to clean, this setup makes it easy to remove pressure clean and replace. Yeah he could go to the trouble of having TC flanges welded directly to the coil (maybe a plan for down the track) but as it sits, it's an easy to use and clean setup.


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## MastersBrewery

Ignore me no glasses on!

Abovementioned removing the coil is the only way to ensure it is 100% clean. If your going to have a herms coil I can't see how you'd do it better.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

OK thanks for the info. I was thinking a barrel union would be easier and cheaper but I just looked it up on Geordi's site and they're the same price.


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## Moad

Not sure about Barrel union but yeah TC on the coil for easy removal and it is in HLT, hot side only and no wort contact


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## Tex N Oz

Here's an isometric cut-away of what the layout looks like. 




This drawing is representative only and not exactly how I weld in fittings, but you get the idea. Malleable pipe/threaded unions are just as hard to clean and I reserve their use in very high pressure or steam applications for reasons of safety.

Though very difficult to manufacture, I think this setup is the best for the application. Couldn't think of a better way.


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## Benn

Very nice,
Where did you source the Tri Clover ferrules etc?


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## Moad

ebay... 2014online


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## mofox1

Ha. Bought so much of my brewery from them too.


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## Moad

Just hope to hell they don't get your order wrong. Was a real pain getting a refund for $17 of parts they didn't send


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## SBOB

Moad said:


> Just hope to hell they don't get your order wrong. Was a real pain getting a refund for $17 of parts they didn't send


did you raise the issue via ebay/paypal resolution or just message them?

Getting a full refund from china sellers is pretty easy with an 'item not received' claim (though if you received most, this is kind of a dick move), and partial refunds are usually ok if you just spell out the basic request via the ebay resolution process... Rarely do you get an email response, just a paypal refund appearing (at least in my experience)

I've done many an item not received claim for items coming from China without issue for things arriving broken, completely wrong order or just never turn up at all


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## Moad

Yeah I messaged outside the resolution process first and after 20 or so times repeating myself I logged a case. I made the mistake of closing the case on the promise they would send the parts. Luckily I could raise a case on another part of similar value and they gave me the refund straight away for that one.

I'll know next time


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## Tex N Oz

SBOB said:


> did you raise the issue via ebay/paypal resolution or just message them?
> 
> Getting a full refund from china sellers is pretty easy with an 'item not received' claim (though if you received most, this is kind of a dick move), and partial refunds are usually ok if you just spell out the basic request via the ebay resolution process... Rarely do you get an email response, just a paypal refund appearing (at least in my experience)
> 
> I've done many an item not received claim for items coming from China without issue for things arriving broken, completely wrong order or just never turn up at all


It almost seems like a way of business for many of these import sellers, 2014online included. A couple of the others are AUWarehouse and av-rf. 
Solaluna88 are FAST shippers with decent prices and STAY AWAY from beautyzz2009 or any seller that also sells rubber dicks and crotchless panties as that's my gauge as to how hopeless they'll be dealing with tube fittings; with a high degree of accuracy.
2014online will send you 95% of what you've ordered, almost always leaving out an item or 2 hoping that you either don't catch it, or don't make a deal out of it.
Chatting with them via email is almost always a lost cause. They'll either argue or ignore. In Moad's case I got the shits because it was $12 worth of parts they left out of a $400 order and they still argued.
If we were trying to scam, we'd be morons to pick the least expensive part in the box to claim on.
The way I deal with them is to systematically leave them a quick message and within 24 business hours or upon arguement, raise a claim. Eventually they mark your name on their computer with the Chinese equivalent of "He not happy no happy package counting" and they quit trying it on.
It should also be noted that I've had a few parts tested from various Chinese suppliers and be very wary of what alloy of stainless you'll be receiving. If it's a critical system that requires 30RA finishing or certification, don't bother. Look at a Taiwan or Thailand supplier instead. For brewers, anything austenitic will work and it usually falls inside that category somewhere but don't spend extra on the 316 when the 304 will work fine as you probably won't be getting either to specs.


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## Mardoo

I, too, have had good experiences with Solaluna88. Never had an issue with them over 6 orders. Well, there was one when something arrived crushed, but they refunded immediately, no questions.


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## Tex N Oz

Not to jack this thread, but I just received ANOTHER wrong order from Online2014. Ridiculous.
We'll see how this plays out.
I ordered an Ø89mm clamp cover and received a Ø102mm clamp cover. I need to find a local supplier with decent pricing.





I've requested a refund. Let's see how this goes.


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## Moad

ITS ALIVE!

I got the control panel wired up over the weekend, tested pumps and valves. I ended up going with the Chugger Nano Pump...that thing is a BEAST!

I've got to get the elements wired up and then I'm ready for a brew. Programming has been done but not tested yet, will be running some water through this week to test.

It is unbelievably satisfying to be able to control and monitor the brew with a phone, tablet or laptop. The BCS utilities allows me to quickly change all times and temps prior to a brew, there is someone working on importing from beersmith which will be incredible.

Still lots to do once it is up and running, hard pipe, replace remaining threaded hose barbs with tri clover fittings, add float switches and improve automation. For now I will just need to manually fill HLT and MT and then click a button to move from strike heating on to mash then to boil and finally chill processes. Then I'll need to turn on the tap for chilling and turn it off once the whirlpool stops, finally back on for the run out into fermenters. I may end up not bothering with further automation for a while but the plumbing is definitely something I'd like to improve soon.

I put some M8 connectors on the panel and also on the stand so I can wheel it out for cleaning by simply unplugging the patch leads, same story with the pumps. All other fittings such as elements are tri clover and can be removed from the pots for a full clean down if required. 

Plumbing underneath is not visible in these photos


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## Benn

Can I have it?


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## pcqypcqy

Benn said:


> Can I have it?


You can have the brewery, I want to have that Lamaze dog toy there.


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## Moad

Benn said:


> Can I have it?


No that would require me to total up the cost...I am way past that...


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## SBOB

nice panel wiring


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## Moad

SBOB said:


> nice panel wiring


It looks a little untidy because I left the cover plate off where they are all channeled. I owe lots of beer to my mate for putting the electrical stuff together, and my other mate who helped with the plumbing and stand, and Bruce (Tex n Oz) for the welding. 

Lucky I made it so big so I can repay all of the favours!


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## Cocko

I dont to read many threads these days but glad I flicked this one open, **** me Moad - Amazing build man. Be proud!

:super:


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## Moad

Thanks Cocko!

I was having a play last night and had a spare 2 way valve. I've now hooked it up from tap to chillers so I can automate the chilling completely. All I need to do is undo the bk return line TC fitting and drop into fermenter when I'm alerted to do so (during hop stand). The fermenter will eventually be another TC fitting but for now they are plastic.


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## malt junkie

Moad, great work mate! What size hoses did you go with? Particularly on the Nano. Also first brew pics are a must.

one sexy bit of kit for making beer 
Love it!


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## Moad

I found some 1" silicone from ali baba, it works fine with cold water but not sure what it will do when it gets hot. It is rated for boiling + but more concerned about the flexing and kinking
The other stuff is just standard 13mm silicone. Out of the nano is strangely a 1/2" fitting, that is one part of the plumbing I need to address as I didn't have fittings to go straight from 1/2" to 1" into the valve. 

So out of the nano its 1/2" silicone for a short run then into a tee with 2 x 2-way full bore 1" valves into 1" tubing.

The bottleneck on flow rate is the coil, limits me to 7L / min with the nano and can get 6L/min with the March 815-C's. So slightly better flow rate from the Nano than the 815's, I expect it could get up to 10L/min with a 3/4" coil or a shorter coil but I don't think it will be an issue. I expect it will be somewhere in the vacinity of 15 minutes for mash step ramp times. I get 12L/min with the 1/2" hose (chiller circuit) and 815-C through 2x30 plate chillers. That's 10 min to pump full volume through chillers into fermenter.

Elements getting wired up tonight so will have some actual numbers to go on for ramp times etc


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## Moad

oops


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## Moad

Real world result is 8 degrees in 10 minutes for water, won't be testing with grain for a few weeks.


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## Moad

I'm running some more tests now and logging some data, one interesting observation is the 3 degree differential between HLT reported temp and the return at the point just before exiting the HEX into MT.

there is then a 7 degree differential between the HEX return and the MT which I expected.

I am logging the temps so will have some graphs to go over shortly. I expected a one or two degree difference between HLT temp and the return but not 3. I suspect it is because the HLT probe is directly in liquid and the HEX Return and MT probes are in thermowells.


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## Moad

Well a couple of observations but I'll need to rerun the test as I realised I wasn't recirculating the HLT at the end. I think the difference between HLT and HEX will be 1 degree rather than 3 once it is recirculating.

The mash lagged behind the HEX return by 7 degrees the whole way through the ramp, once HLT and HEX return were close together it started to draw closer together. Overall ramp rate starting the HLT and MT at 20 degrees was 80 minutes to go to 70 in the HLT and 60 in the MT. So one degree every two minutes in the mash which is acceptable for me.

One issue is that the MT never caught up to HEX return, it was 2 degrees behind. When the HLT and HEX were reading at target strike temp of 71 the MT only ever got just over 69 . I can only put this down to heat loss through the pot (not insulated). I've read the conversion takes place in the liquid and the hottest temp is what I should be reading, I guess as long as I am consistent in the process then it isn't a big problem. Maybe for strike temp I'll measure from the MT but then for the mash I'll read from the HEX return to ramp etc.

Another issue I am now realising I am going to have is that I am heating the entire strike volume in HLT and MT to 71 however this does not account for the drop to target mash temp with constant recirculation. So my mash will drop to say 66 when I dough in but as soon as the recirc kicks back in the HLT is at 71 so will bring the mash up again. It may take some tweaking but maybe I will need to heat HLT + MT strike water to only 2 degrees above first step temp. Mash in and the MT will drop 1 or 2 below, start recirc and the mash going through the coil will be target temp... they should balance out in the middle at the first mash step temp pretty quickly. 

The other issue is the Chugger Max pump overheated twice. It was running for an hour and a half and felt hot but not too hot. I've contacted Chugger to see what I need to do, really hoping I don't have to send this back to brewers hardware as it will cost me close to $100 in shipping. If I do that I might see if I can get a refund on it and use one of the March 815-Cs for the Mash pump instead. I was still getting 6L/min with them which should be OK.

All in all I'm really happy with the rig so far, definitely some improvements to be made but I'll be able to make beer real soon.


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## malt junkie

The flow rate between the march and chugger max seem tighter than what is documented, what size pick up is in the mash tun, those max pumps really need to be as open feed as possible.


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## Moad

1" mt to Max pump. The bottleneck is the hex coil

The MT has a 2" bottom drain out with a reducer to 1". Then 1" hose down to 1" 3 way valve which has a 3/4" bore then into 1" to 3/4" reducer into the pump.

There is lots of restriction on the out side to provide some pressure.


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## Moad

Moad said:


> Overall ramp rate starting the HLT and MT at 20 degrees was 80 minutes to go to 70 in the HLT and 60 in the MT. So one degree every two minutes in the mash which is acceptable for me.


I think I wrote this too late, it was just over an hour to ramp the MT 40 degrees.

so 1.5 min/degree with water


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## Moad

It looks like the chugger nano motors are 60hz only, I'm waiting to confirm with the supplier. If this is the case I've potentially burnt out my $500 pump and taken a massive hit on the progress of the build. Was not sure whether to purchase it in the first place... Absolutely gutted


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## mb-squared

that's horrible Moad. but I'm curious as to which one you bought because according to the data sheet on Chugger's website, this pump runs at 50 & 60 Hz: http://www.chuggerpumps.com/home-brewing-pumps-chugger/chugger-pump-products/item/tcpssmax-ci/index.html


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## Moad

Yeah Im trying to get Mike from chugger pumps to confirm but his last response was

"Don't know what is causing the overheat ..we do not sell in AUS ..I will send a new motor in the US only 

Mike Caringi"

The brewers hardware site I purchased from actually says 60hz and not 50 so it is not 100% clear at this stage. Given the regular chugger pumps are 50/60 and the spec sheet on manufacturer website says 50/60 I'm not sure what is happening. I came across another ahb thread where this issue was raised on an early run of chugger pumps.

If I don't get a response from brewers hardware or mike at chugger I will try PayPal buyer protection as it appears it is faulty.

I can swap out that pump with one of the 815-C pumps if I get nowhere. The other thing I can try is drop the voltage down to the pump and see if it stops the overheating. I'm really disappointed in chugger pumps response.


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## malt junkie

Moad their data sheets show a 50hz curve, that would leave any reasonable person to assume it's good for 50hz.


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## Moad

It would and it did (if I am a reasonable person) but I think I'm stuck as I purchased from the states.

Best case it is just faulty and I drop another $80 to ship it back. Worst case they continue to stonewall me. If I have to drop the voltage to get it to work I might as well have got another 815-c.


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## Weizguy

malt junkie said:


> Moad, great work mate! What size hoses did you go with? Particularly on the Nano. Also first brew pics are a must.
> 
> one sexy bit of kit for making beer
> Love it!


First or second brew: Club Brew night for HUB, please!


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## Moad

I'll need to get a few under the belt to make sure there is enough beer in the house for a brewday first. But yeah, once she is dialled in a HUB brew day/night is on the cards.


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## Weizguy

Moad said:


> I'll need to get a few under the belt to make sure there is enough beer in the house for a brewday first. But yeah, once she is dialled in a HUB brew day/night is on the cards.


We could combine it with a club meet and a style tasting. Otherwise, I'm happy to bring a keg of something that will travel well (unaffected by yeast disturbance), even if I have to transfer off the yeast trub into another keg.

This message is sent unofficially on behalf of the club.


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## Moad

Will discuss at B&T mate but certainly keen to show off the rig!

Need to get this damn pump sorted first


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## Moad

Turns out there is a label on the pump saying 50/60 so its faulty.

I read chugger had good customer service, it appears not.

I'm talking to brewers hardware now about options. They are looking like refunding the pump in which case I'll buy the march nano from process pumps.

So happy I paid through PayPal.


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## malt junkie

awesome news, though would have been nice for it to just work the first time.


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## Moad

Yeah and there is a 3-5 week lead time on the March!


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## Moad

I have to give a plug to Brewers Hardware, no fuss with the refund on the pump. It's a shame the pump didn't work and I'll have to wait for a March but a good result in the end. 

Chugger can get fucked as far as I am concerned, disgraceful attitude from Mike. I'll never buy a chugger product.


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## TheWiggman

Geez that's a shocker. For the record, a simple induction motor will run at any frequency* without issue. Only the speed (and by extension power) will be affected. Reducing the frequency of the AC power source from 60 to 50 Hz will slow it 17% from the US supply, which for the most part is about all that matters. What this is turn does however is reduce the fan/cooling rate, but this is counteracted by the reduction in power so less cooling is required.
The fact however that the manual lists power as 115/230 VAC and provides a 50 & 60Hz curve is pretty conclusive.
* For a VVVF drive however the relationship is not linear and when running at lower speeds: the voltage is increased to maintain torque at low speeds. With the increase in motor current and reduced cooling from the slower speed, it's absolutely an issue. In practice however the lowest you want to go for most applications is around 20% rated speed.

tldr;
Talking shit, 50Hz is fine.


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## Moad

Thanks Wiggman, I was going to drop the voltage when I couldn't get a conclusive response from the manufacturer (as much as that would have made getting a larger pump pointless) and then I looked at the label on the pump whcih had it as 50/60hz. To be honest, brewers hardware could have argued it as their website only has it as 60hz. 

Faulty motor with very few f**ks given by Mike at chugger! I mean, come on... he operates in a global market. Work with the local distributor or use a freight forwarder... stand behind your product. Anyway I won't go on about it, it's sorted.

Will set brewday back a few weeks but luckily I am (now) in Hawaii for a few of those which eases the pain!


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## mofox1

Moad said:


> Will set brewday back a few weeks but luckily I am (now) in Hawaii for a few of those which eases the pain!


That's it. No more sympathy for you! h34r: :lol:


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## Moad

Well it is nowhere near complete but it is going to make me some beer tomorrow, 200L actually.


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## Moad

This is with a March 809 for the pump recirculating the mash. I am getting about 3.5L / min... half of the chugger.


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## Moad

gotta love when a plan comes together... sorry in advance for spamming this thread.


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## Mardoo

Dude, it's your own thread. Spam away. I'm no poorer for it. Is that a BCS?


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## Moad

Yeah BCS mate, it is worth the price for it...outstanding bit of kit.

I'm really surprised at the performance of the march 809.

I've just ramped from 66 to 77 (measured in the MT) in 30 minutes. 

Good to know I can still brew with a backup pump if any of the others kark it.

Time for the sparge!


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## mb-squared

Moad said:


> This is with a March 809 for the pump recirculating the mash. I am getting about 3.5L / min... half of the chugger.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ramp-Small Pump.JPG


that's too bad. either the 809 is underpowered or your tubing is way too restrictive. but hey, at least you're brewing!


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## Moad

I'm not dissapointed in it, the opposite actually. As an interim pump its doing the job for me.

I've got it sitting quite low as well, didn't want to mount it for only a few weeks so its on the ground.


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## Moad

12 hours 200L later, what did I learn.

85% mash efficiency. 
Make sure to put hoses back on before pumping (lost 10L).
Trust sober Moads programming of the controller.
Summer tap temps don't chill the same as winter.


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## Moad

The other thing I learned... make sure you clean everything cold side before brew day. I've missed something somewhere and infected the first batch.

I suspect the plate chiller or the fermenter tap. nooooooo!

Problem with some large batches is the $ lost. I had written off the first batch as I thought something would go wrong anyway... but still $120 sacrificed to the beer gods


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## SBOB

Or on the other hand, you made a sour for your first batch


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## mb-squared

what was it that let you know just 24 hours in?


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## Moad

Some kind of DMS smelling bacteria. Very strange clumps of what looks like break material at the top and a grey/white foam. I've actually had this before a long time ago. 

For a few reasons the wort was still 40 degrees into fermenter and took 10 hours to pitch, I could actually smell the vegetal cabbage smell prior to pitching 

I've done thorough clean of chillers today as well as a soak of other fermenter and pulled taps out etc.

I'm waiting on my sparky mate to hook up a little pond pump that I'll use to recirc iced water in a second chiller. 

Its been a while since I brewed and I got lazy


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## mb-squared

hmm, that does sound bad. just surprised that it got that much traction within such a short amount of time. on a slightly different note, can't you recirculate your boiling wort through the chillers during the last 15 mins of your boil?


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## Moad

I did that...

edit: Although in thinking back I only circulated for 10 minutes not 15, I had some programming issues with the controller I was looking at and forgot. 

I am going to do another test run before the next brew to iron out some process issues and let me focus on brew day. I think I was just a little rusty.

My main suspect is fermenter taps though.

I was shocked I could smell it after 12 hours and thought it must have been me being paranoid so pitched anyway. I suspect the high temperature had alot to do with the rapid growth


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## osprey brewday

Hi moad 
Regarding the ice water for recirculating I found best to run tap water through a spare immersion chiller in a large tub of ice slurry and then to the wort chiller then to waste. You will be surprised how much ice u go through. I chill down 60 lts of water in a drum in the fridge day before and add ice to it and drop the immersion chiller in it This method gets me 50 lts to fermenter at 17 deg with kettle tap wide open through a keg king plate chiller.


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## Moad

I've got two plate chillers so was planning to run hose water through the first and then ice water through the second. Maybe what I should do is run the tap water through the iced chiller as a pre chiller. Not sure which would be more effective/efficient


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## osprey brewday

Pre chill the go, you can even submerged the whole pre plate chiller in the slurry while recirculating. The commercial lancer font chillers are designed that way.


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## Moad

So tap water goes through the wort in/out of the pre chiller and the iced water recircs through the other pipe is what you are saying?


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## osprey brewday

Yes I find to get best results is to get max temp diff,as the plate chillers are so efficient u can utilise the whole exchanger and have a high flow of product if your inlet temp is low enough.
I have a plan to convert a heat pump hws into a chilled water tank for this purpose.
Just need to find a discarded heat pump hws that needs a new life.


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## Moad

Just pitched the second batch I had cubed. Smells fantastic. I had fermenters full of starsan overnight, not that any additional time is needed but I left it anyway. Soaked the taps too...

Ive got a list of things to sort for the next brew. Some valves for dumping out of the bottom of MT and kettle and also for the return on the chiller circuit.

I might need a valve to restrict flow through the chillers too


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## Moad

Update and musings:

The brewery has not missed a beat. I brew about once a month, sometimes a double brew day. I can knock out 8 x 15L cubes (per batch) and dilute in to the fermenter, I don't really chill as it wastes too much water for my liking. 

The only painful thing with the setup is cleaning, if I was to rebuild I would get cone bottom pots and look at a tipping mash tun to empty the grain. I also have some lines where liquid will sit. If I don't flush at the end of brew day with perc then clean water... it stinks. I could definitely add more disconnects to make cleaning easier but it works well and I don't want to restrict flow anywhere.

There is a limit on how much automation is worthwhile... I was going down the path of float switches and automating the entire process from filling the brewery to chilling however it definitely takes the joy out of it.

The heat exchange diameter is about as small as I would want to go on this setup as well. It takes about 30 minutes for mash temp to match the hex return temp, I think this is because of the flow rate coming through the coil. I have a bigger pump I can try to address this but with 3 kids now it makes it tough to find the time to play.

When setting strike temp, I have to set quite low as the heat exchange will be much hotter than target mash temp because of the volume of water in the mash tun + HLT (where the HEX is).

All in all, very happy with the build, I have only had to replace one heating element I blew up by dry firing. It has had 4 homes and I just moved it back to my place after an 18 month holiday at a mates place.

The kegland fill o meter is also an excellent addition to the brew day.


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