# Bleach And Star San



## vicelore (25/11/08)

Hey guys

well heading up to a brew tongiht and i have a heap of new equip i want to give a real good cleaning before the brew.

I was thinking making up a big batch of Bleach 5ml/1L let all the equip sit in that for a while then rinse throughly with hot pre boiled water.

I was then going to use Star san ( never used before ) as a spray on no rinse out of a spray bottle. for on going sanatising during the night. 

Does anyone see any chemical problems here that i might not of herd of ?

PS what ratio to water do you guys use with the star san ??

How long will it stay good in a spray bottle ?

cheers guys.


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## Effect (25/11/08)

:excl: just don't mix bleach with starsan!


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## bouncingcastle (25/11/08)

Personally,

With the cleaning, I would use some napisan - give the bleach the flick (with vinegar as a sanitiser is a different story). Give it a good soak, and a good scrub.

Isn't starsan both a cleaner and a sanitiser? I thought that was so good about it??

That being said, you may just be able to get away with the SS... Sorry, don't use it so can't tell you the ratios.

Chris.


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## fraser_john (25/11/08)

Starsan is just a sanitiser, works best if the thing to be sanitised is thoroughly clean. The good thing about starsan is that as long as it is free of floaties, it can be re-used over and over and over and over. So a $40 purchase (or whatever it costs for a big bottle) is a lifetime investment in sanitary fun!


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## bouncingcastle (25/11/08)

And it can still sanitise, even if there is organic matter right?

Hmmm....


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## vicelore (25/11/08)

it wont be reused.

I just wanted to good sanatiser that was no rinse..

Ill just ditch the bleach idea. and use only the star san. ( iv allready baught it )


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## Screwtop (25/11/08)

vicelore said:


> it wont be reused.
> 
> I just wanted to good sanatiser that was no rinse..
> 
> Ill just ditch the bleach idea. and use only the star san. ( iv allready baught it )




If your gear was clean to start with use bleach solution (20:1) with a little white vinegar (teaspoon) to sanitise. Rinse with tap water and store to dry. Prior to use spray or wet with Starsan to sanitise AGAIN before use. That is how it is meant to be used, give the correct amount of contact time then drain before use, no need to rinse as it's a NO RINSE sanitiser. After use I like to clean with Napisan, then sanitise with bleach and vinegar ( a little vinegar is all thats required so long as your tap water is not wildly alkaline) then rinsing before drying and storing the gear ready for the next use. That way i know that a little spray with a no rinse sanitiser is all that will be required.

Hope this helps.


Screwy

Disclaimer: This is how I do it - Just wait for the sanipolice to jump on the bleach water vinegar ratio.


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## newguy (25/11/08)

Don't bother with bleach at all, just ensure that the equipment is clean - then sanitise with star san. Mix it @ 1.5ml per litre of water. If your water is relatively hard, mix it with reverse osmosis water - it will stay effective pretty much forever. It can be sealed in a container (I keep mine in a 5 gal plastic pail) and reused over & over. If it turns cloudy, dump & remix a new batch. I think that star san claims a contact time of ~30 seconds to be effective, but I always go at least 1-2 minutes just to be sure.


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## muckey (25/11/08)

+1 for bleach / vinegar no rinse.

as long as everything is kept clean, it's cheap and effective


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## fraser_john (25/11/08)

bouncingcastle said:


> And it can still sanitise, even if there is organic matter right?
> 
> Hmmm....



I guess it can still sanitise if organic matter is present, but from memory its best if everything is thoroughly clean. 

Newguy put it better in a later post, you can re-use the stuff till it goes cloudy.

I have a bottle I have had for 6 years and have only used about 50 ml of the stuff, cannot get cheaper than that!


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## TidalPete (25/11/08)

Muckey said:


> +1 for bleach / vinegar no rinse.
> 
> as long as everything is kept clean, it's cheap and effective



So you do the 20\1 bleach \water combo too Muckey?
Seems like a vast overkill to me. I use bleach at the rate of two tablespoons per 30 litre fermenter every other time (And rinse with boiling water the other), then sanitise with phos (I still have 4.5 litres of the stuff from my 5.0 litre buy three years ago next month).

Don't want to be rude but a lot of brewers seem to go* way* over the top in regards to sterilising & sanitation when moderation with chemicals is best. 
What is the point of helping the planet by saving water when you dump all that bleach down the drain?
And no, this has nothing to do with a certain problem with a certain brewer. 
That tip to add a little white vinegar is a good one. 

TP :beer:


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## white.grant (25/11/08)

fraser_john said:


> I guess it can still sanitise if organic matter is present, but from memory its best if everything is thoroughly clean.



No, nothing can sanitise organic matter, you're just wasting sanitiser. If it isn't clean, it cannot be sanitised.

cheers

Grant


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## domonsura (25/11/08)

Grantw said:


> No, nothing can sanitise organic matter, you're just wasting sanitiser. If it isn't clean, it cannot be sanitised.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Grant



And the prize goes to the man with the toys in the shed


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## white.grant (25/11/08)

domonsura said:


> And the prize goes to the man with the toys in the shed




Wish I had some more of your toys in my shed


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## buttersd70 (25/11/08)

Muckey said:


> +1 for bleach / vinegar no rinse.
> 
> as long as everything is kept clean, it's cheap and effective



1.7mL per L, 2-4L of the mix will easily do a fermenter. Only if its clean, though.


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## bouncingcastle (25/11/08)

Grantw said:


> No, nothing can sanitise organic matter, you're just wasting sanitiser. If it isn't clean, it cannot be sanitised.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Grant



I thought this was different with starsan though because it contained a surfactant (??)... From what I recall that's where all the foaming comes in handy, or am I confusing myself (AGAIN!)...?


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## newguy (25/11/08)

It won't sanitise organic matter. No sanitiser will. If you have crud in your fermenter or keg, you may as well not even bother with the star san. The reason is that the crud will prevent the star san from penetrating into the crud and through to what's behind it. Add sterile wort, give it some time, and the crud may dissolve or dislodge, thus freeing whatever nasty organisms it was harbouring. And it is harbouring nasty organisms. Guaranteed it is.

Sort of like a surgeon repairing a perforated bowel. Do they sprinkle some iodine on the shit that spilled out and sew you back up? Of course not - they have to clean the shit up, then spread whatever they use (I don't know if it's actually iodine) to kill germs around to try and mop up any remaining critters. Dumping sanitiser on shit doesn't result in sterile shit.


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## white.grant (25/11/08)

newguy said:


> Sort of like a surgeon repairing a perforated bowel. Do they sprinkle some iodine on the shit that spilled out and sew you back up? Of course not - they have to clean the shit up, then spread whatever they use (I don't know if it's actually iodine) to kill germs around to try and mop up any remaining critters. Dumping sanitiser on shit doesn't result in sterile shit.



Yes you can't polish a turd B) 

cheers

grant


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## TidalPete (25/11/08)

Grantw said:


> Yes you can't polish a turd B)
> 
> cheers
> 
> grant



Although a lot of people try. h34r: :lol: 

TP :beer:


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## Darren (25/11/08)

buttersd70 said:


> 1.7mL per L, 2-4L of the mix will easily do a fermenter. Only if its clean, though.




Bleach should never be used as a no rinse sanitiser for all-grain brewing (unless you like the taste of chlorophenols)  

cheers

Darren


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## Adamt (25/11/08)

Grantw said:


> Yes you can't polish a turd B)
> 
> cheers
> 
> grant



But you can roll it in glitter...


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## muckey (25/11/08)

Sorry - late back to the thread - work got in the way

to answer an earlier post I dont use 20/1 - butters I think added the concentration

works out to approx 2ml of each in 2 litres of water or there abouts to get no rise concentrations

I normally measure about 1.6ml of each into a full beer jug of water.

Its important to ensure everything is clean first

as far as not using bleach in all grain - I think the important thing is to use any sanitiser in the correct concentration to avoid any unwanted reactions and bleach most detergents can release chlorine in several forms which if left in larger than no rinse concentrations will form more than just chlorophenols - chlorine will happily buddy up with almost anything and always makes something nasty. It's really a matter of making sure that the nasties are in extremely small concentrations.


As for rolling turd in glitter - never tried that. Spray paint works OK though 

edit: spelling


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## white.grant (25/11/08)

Adamt said:


> But you can roll it in glitter...



rofl


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## TidalPete (25/11/08)

> to answer an earlier post I dont use 20/1



Perhaps I got it wrong & it was 20 bleach to 1 water. :unsure: 
That would probably do the trick re sterilising?

TP :beer:


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## bouncingcastle (25/11/08)

newguy said:


> It won't sanitise organic matter.



This has been bothering me... I don't like being wrong

Linky

Second listed benefit "Not Affected by Organic Materials"

I'm not suggesting you could take a dump in your fermenter  , but if you clean and miss a little bit or aren't "sparkling" then this sort of covers the gaps (as regular sanitisers aren't useful in the presence of organic material)


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## mynameisrodney (25/11/08)

I don't understand all these posts about starsan not working on organic matter. Isn't that the whole point of it, to kill bacteria etc.

Chris


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## Thirsty Boy (25/11/08)

Starsan wont be rendered ineffective by he presence of a bit of organic matter floating about the place, but the surface being sanitised MUST be free of organic matter, or any other soil. Starsan kills bacteria, it doesn't dissolve general organic goo. Thats the best way to think of it - starsan is a killer, and it cant kill the germs it cant see because they are hiding behind a chunk of dried on trub or whatever. Something has to remove the goo, then starsan can kill the bugs

Strasan is not a cleaner it it a sanitiser - surfaces must be clean in order to be sanitised.

This is something that John Herskovits from 5star chemicals (makers of starsan) emphasized several times during his talk at the ANHC - cleaning and sanitation is a cycle of just that... cleaning _then_ sanitation. You cannot sanitise a dirty surface.

Clean after use - Before use, rinse to remove any dust, then sanitise _immediately before_ you put your product into contact with the vessel.

As for the rate at which to mix Starsan... it is written on the side of the bottle, follow the manufacturer's instructions and you will not go wrong.


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## pint of lager (25/11/08)

Rule one of sanitizing. Make sure every surface is perfectly clean.

Rule two. Use a good quality no rinse sanitiser in the concentration recomended by the manufacturer.

Change sanitisers and cleaners from time to time to avoid any bug building up a resistance.


If a surface is not clean, the sanitiser cannot penetrate under whatever soil/crud is left and cannot sanitise whatever is under the soil. This lump of soil may or may not harbour some infection which will infect your brew.


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## Darren (25/11/08)

Muckey said:


> as far as not using bleach in all grain - I think the important thing is to use any sanitiser in the correct concentration to avoid any unwanted reactions and bleach most detergents can release chlorine in several forms which if left in larger than no rinse concentrations will form more than just chlorophenols - chlorine will happily buddy up with almost anything and always makes something nasty. It's really a matter of making sure that the nasties are in extremely small concentrations.
> 
> edit: spelling




Muckey,

Chlorophenols can taint beer very readily. If you can smell the chlorine then you WILL get chlorophenols and be able to taste them. If you cannot smell the chlorine it is probably too low a concentration to be effective.

You have suggested using around 0.0125% v/v hypochlorite which I suggest would kill nothing. I think it it better to use around 1% then rinse with boiled water. It will only take two minutes longer but is guaranteed to work.

cheers

Darren


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## Thirsty Boy (26/11/08)

Just to clarify a couple of things - I don't know for sure that chlorine at the 30ml bleach per 19L of water (plus 30ml of vinegar) concentration that is usual when people talk about using acidified bleach as a no-rinse; is actually an effective concentration ... I believe it is because I have heard several people I trust, including two employees of 5 star chemicals say that it would be - people who not only know sanitisers inside out, but who have a vested interest in you NOT using this sort of sanitiser and actually buying theirs instead, so have no reason to tell anything but the truth.

In this I admit that I am going on faith rather than knowledge. They might be wrong - but I suspect not.

As for chlorophenols.. Rather than speculating, lets put some numbers to it and see if the concentrations actually work out to be a problem or not. I am no chemist and there is a pretty fair chance I will screw up the concentration thing... but I am sure that someone on here not only can but will correct me if I get it wrong.

The bleach in my cupboard says it has 3.3% w/v available chlorine - so, the 30ml I am going to use contains 3.3/100 x 30 = 0.99mg of chlorine. Lets just call it 1mg then shall we.

OK, so this 1mg of chlorine goes into 19L or 19,000ml of water giving us a concentration of 1/19000 = 0.000052632 mg/ml of chlorine.

We now liberally sanitise our fermentor with this presumably effective solution and drain it well. Some of our chlorine will be left behind - potentially contaminating our beer giving rise to chlorophenols and nasty resultant flavours... so how much is left and will it be a problem??

Let us say that we don't drain all that well and we leave behind a full 100ml of the sanitising solution - this equates to 0.000052632 x 100 = 0.0052632 mg of chlorine.

So we put wort into our contaminated fermentor - lets say its a standard 23L batch. What concentration of chlorine is that now. Its 0.0052632 / 23 = 0.0002288mg/L. Lets call mg/L parts per million. Close enough I suspect.

Assume that none of the chlorine reacts with anything else and that its all still there and combines with phenols in the beer to produce chlorophenols. So we get 0.0002288 ppm of chlorophenols as a result.

Chlorophenols are detectable in beer at roughly 2-3 parts per billion... so we need to convert to ppb. Multiply by 1000. Now we are left with 0.23ppb of cholrophenols in the beer or just about one tenth of the amount that would be needed for you to be able to taste it.

It seems to me that even a brewer who leaves his fermentor dripping wet with this sanitiser is safe from detectable chlorophenols by a factor of 10... if he isn't sloppy and manages to drain out all but 10ml of the solution.. its a factor of 100.

So even if my horrible chuck it together chemistry is out of whack (and it probably is)... it needs to be 100 times worse than my calculations show before chlorophenols are an issue.

I feel relatively confident

Shoot me down if you will, I don't mind being proved wrong - but I do want to be _proved_ wrong, not just told that I am.

TB


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## Darren (26/11/08)

TB,

My bottle of chlorine is 12.% w/v so puts it in the ballpark by your numbers.
Also, how many of the water conservative brewers here fill their fermenter with 22 litres of water before adding their sanitiser? I know that when I am sanitising I usually add a couple of cups full of water add a bit of sanitiser then shake and swirl ensuring all surfaces come in contact.
Now, using your number and a brewer who would rather use a litre of water/chlorine to sanitise rather than 22 litres, I think we are certainly in taste threshold range.

Besides, suggesting that small amounts of chlorophenol in beer is acceptable is just plain stupid. It tastes like crap and cannot be removed, effectively ensuring a "dumper-brew". How simple is it to rinse?? Very simple!! 

Having conceded that you are aware of the potential problem, I cannot see why one would persue using chlorine as a no-rinse sanitiser (perhaps the 5 Star guys mentioned this as a reason NOT to use chlorine and you selectively forgot to mention that).



cheers

Darren

EDIT: If you are only draining your fermenter _ala_ your method, I should point out that the chlorine sticks to plastic like shit to a blanket, leaving considerable more chlorine than your calculations.

Did I mention that unless you are using "Miltons" or similar chlorine based sanitiser that it is not food grade. Most manufacturers think youare using it to wash your dunny or floor, not putting it in your food/beer. Perhaps those using chlorine as no-rinse should give the manufacturer a call and see what they say!!


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## Trent (26/11/08)

I recently tried using bleach and vinegar in a batch of IPA to see if the chlorophenols would make it a dumper. I used 1mL each of 3.5% bleach and white vinegar in 500mL water for 70ppm. A taste several days into secondary revealed a very tasty beer with a chlorine aftertaste, while there was no hint of chlorine a week later at bottling. I will report next week on if it is chlorophenolic. Not something I will always do, just an experiment for my OWN curiosity. You may take my experience for the 2c it is worth. BTW, I did it in a glass carboy, rather than plastic.
Trent


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## chris.taylor.98 (26/11/08)

I have exclusively been using bleach as a cleaner/sanitiser for almost all of my beers. 

During this time I have only had 2 batches that had issues that could be attributed to chlorophenols, and those where all before I started using a water filter for my liquor water.

My method is somewhat different to that described below, as I use a much higher concentration of bleach (approx 70 ml of the 12% w/v in about 7 litres of water ) and put the fermenter on its side, turning it occasionaly to expose it to the bleach solution (aim for about a couple of minutes on each part of the fermenter).

I then follow this up with a liter of boiling water to rinse the fermenter.

After listening to the talk from Five Star at the conference I am now taking more note about concentrations as per manufactures recommendations.

The bleach that I have actually have has instructions for use on "Plant Handing Foodstuffs"

I have no problems recommended other brewers to use bleach as a sanitiser.


Saying all that I have recently gone and purchased some StarSan and PBW. Mainly because I am lead to believe the PBW has multiple cleaning agents that will better clean organic and in organic matterial while bleach does not.

Also StarSan can be stored indefinitely when used with distilled water and am using it as a way of minimising water usage.


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## vicelore (26/11/08)

I found a new rule with the star san last night.. 

Dont spray your spray bottle in the wind as it stings your eyes..


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## buttersd70 (26/11/08)

The debate of bleach (acidified or otherwise) as a sanatiser has raged in many other threads. Given that _both _sides to that argument have already been clearly stated within _this _thread, may I make the suggestion that the argument itself be dropped, that people make their own minds up given the information already presented, and that we return to topic; namely, can bleach be mixed with starsan. My answer to that is a short No.


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## vicelore (26/11/08)

Its kool i read that a while ago and posted i would only use Star san..


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## mynameisrodney (26/11/08)

Nice work on the calculations there TB.



Darren said:


> TB,
> 
> My bottle of chlorine is 12.% w/v so puts it in the ballpark by your numbers.
> Also, how many of the water conservative brewers here fill their fermenter with 22 litres of water before adding their sanitiser? I know that when I am sanitising I usually add a couple of cups full of water add a bit of sanitiser then shake and swirl ensuring all surfaces come in contact.
> ...



Do you make your sanitizer 22 times as concentrated though? I doubt it. Whether you use 22L or 1L to sanitize your fermenter, as long as the concentration is the same, the amount of chlorine left behind will be similar. Also if your bottle of chlorine is 4 times as strong, put 1/4 as much in, then you're back to TB's calcs. Use things in the right amounts/concentrations and everything will be fine.

Cherrs
Chris


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## vicelore (26/11/08)

It got hard for me with the Starsan.

was using 1.5 ml per L . soo measuring .7 of a mill for my 500 ml sqirt bottle was challanging. .lol... im hoping it wasnt to concerntrated as i think i copped some in the eyes..


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## buttersd70 (26/11/08)

vicelore said:


> It got hard for me with the Starsan.
> 
> was using 1.5 ml per L . soo measuring .7 of a mill for my 500 ml sqirt bottle was challanging. .lol... im hoping it wasnt to concerntrated as i think i copped some in the eyes..



go to the nearest chemist and get a few syringes, the type you use to give medicine to babies. 3mL syringes are graduated in 0.1mL, 5mL syringes in 0.2mL graduations.....very expensive, though. About 20c each.


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## muckey (26/11/08)

yeah I use a syringe for mine as well and make it to Charlie Talley's recommended concentration


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## Thirsty Boy (27/11/08)

Darren said:


> Besides, suggesting that small amounts of chlorophenol in beer is acceptable is just plain stupid. It tastes like crap and cannot be removed, effectively ensuring a "dumper-brew". How simple is it to rinse?? Very simple!!




Darren, ignoring the part where you infer that I am a liar - and point out that if people use 19 (don't know where you got 22 from) times as much bleach as recommended they might have issues (duh) - I will comment only on what I have quoted above, which is factually wrong

Chlorophenols do indeed taste like crap... and experienced tasters can detect these substances at 2-3 parts per billion. So levels of chlorophenols lower than that are completely irrelevant to beer flavour. No matter how much you want them to be, they just aren't.

Whether using a no-rinse bleach/vinegar solution will result in levels higher than that... I think that a previous poster is correct. There is now enough information here for people to decide for themselves.

Lets let them shall we


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## Darren (27/11/08)

mynameisrodney said:


> Do you make your sanitizer 22 times as concentrated though? I doubt it. Whether you use 22L or 1L to sanitize your fermenter, as long as the concentration is the same, the amount of chlorine left behind will be similar. Also if your bottle of chlorine is 4 times as strong, put 1/4 as much in, then you're back to TB's calcs. Use things in the right amounts/concentrations and everything will be fine.
> 
> Cherrs
> Chris



Hi Chris,

Chlorine is cheap. I use the same amount whether it be 1 litre or 22 litres. It usually just a splash.

Measuring 1/22 of a teaspoon would be almost impossible too.

I must add that I do use chlorine as a sanitiser, routinely. I just make sure I rinse it. I go by the rule that if i can smell it i will probably be able to taste it. If I can't smell it, then it probably wont sanitise.

Those of you who wish to smell/taste chlorophenols. Get a bottle of chlorine. Take a sip of beer and hold it in your mouth. Carefully take a small whiff of the chlorine then swallow the beer.

I you cant be buggered doing that. It tastes like dettol smells.

Oh, and TB. I did not call you a liar. I said that I think you selectively quoted/heard what the StarSan guy said. Can you explain why a guy selling expensive brewery sanitiser would be such a huge advocate for bleach?? Perhaps he said. "Yeah bleach will work (duh!!) but........

cheers

Darren


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## mick8882003 (28/11/08)

Don't use bleach on stainless, it will pit it and harbour bacteria, same story for plastic fermenters, don't use scourers on them.

Cheers and beers, Mick


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## JonnyAnchovy (30/4/09)

Reviving an old thread to ask a question that seems never to have been cleared up completely.....

Is it necessary to let starsan'd vessels dry before use? I usually never even bother - am I causing any potential probs? Will it impede yeast activity if my fermenter is still a little foamy when I dump in my wort? 


I've never heard a consensus on this one....


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## Ross (30/4/09)

JonnyAnchovy said:


> Reviving an old thread to ask a question that seems never to have been cleared up completely.....
> 
> Is it necessary to let starsan'd vessels dry before use? I usually never even bother - am I causing any potential probs? Will it impede yeast activity if my fermenter is still a little foamy when I dump in my wort?
> 
> ...




Don't fear the foam!!! If mixed to the recommended dosage there is no need to dry the vessel. Once your wort is added it will aid your yeast, not impede it  

Cheers Ross


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## flattop (30/4/09)

I sanitize my bottles with starsan as well and often there is a bit of foam left in them... no taste problems no bottle bombs no infections... it's good stuff.
My only beef is the instructions are in metric but the measuring line on the bottle is imperial .
Anyhow i make up 2 litre batches in PET bottles and it seems to work a treat.


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## JonnyAnchovy (30/4/09)

Cheers guys,

gotta learn to suppress my foam-fear. I figured that air-drying freshly sanitized surfaces would be kinda counter productive, especially in my exceptionally dusty house.

-Jon


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## Dazza_devil (30/4/09)

I've been using starsan as a sanitiser my last two brews. It's hard but I've learnt not to fear the froth and all seems well, but what's the story with that weird bottle with two lids and how do u get the little resovoir to fill up? I've been making the mistake of dipping my syringe into it but just recently thought that I may be contaminating my bottle, wont do that again. 
As far as bleach goes I can't stand the stuff and avoid it like the plague. I almost O.D'ed on the fumes once workin as a cleaner and I've heard strong fumes of chlorine can give you a pulmonary embolism. Folks who are adding up the ppm of chlorine in their beer don't forget to add the chlorine that may be present in the water they use, this could sum to a detectable level. Living in Tasmania you would think that the water here would be very pure but some days it absolutley reeks of chlorine from my tap. I've used casked Tasmanian spring water for my last three brews for this reason. I dunno where Cascade get their water but they use Tassie water as an advertising pitch, the beer is very good though.
Cheers


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## JonnyAnchovy (30/4/09)

Boagsy said:


> I've been using starsan as a sanitiser my last two brews. It's hard but I've learnt not to fear the froth and all seems well, but what's the story with that weird bottle with two lids and how do u get the little resovoir to fill up?




Just take the cap off the resovoir end and squeeze the bottle - it flows right in.


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## Ross (30/4/09)

flattop said:


> My only beef is the instructions are in metric but the measuring line on the bottle is imperial .
> Anyhow i make up 2 litre batches in PET bottles and it seems to work a treat.



Take a closer look - one side is imperial, the other is metric  

Confession: It took a customer to point this out to me, i thought it was Imperial only as well B) 

cheers Ross


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## flattop (30/4/09)

LMAO i'm right handed so i always hold the bottle the same way on the same side!

Thanks Ross


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## brando (30/4/09)

Boagsy said:


> I've been using starsan as a sanitiser my last two brews. It's hard but I've learnt not to fear the froth and all seems well, but what's the story with that weird bottle with two lids and how do u get the little resovoir to fill up? I've been making the mistake of dipping my syringe into it but just recently thought that I may be contaminating my bottle, wont do that again.
> As far as bleach goes I can't stand the stuff and avoid it like the plague. I almost O.D'ed on the fumes once workin as a cleaner and I've heard strong fumes of chlorine can give you a pulmonary embolism. Folks who are adding up the ppm of chlorine in their beer don't forget to add the chlorine that may be present in the water they use, this could sum to a detectable level. Living in Tasmania you would think that the water here would be very pure but some days it absolutley reeks of chlorine from my tap. I've used casked Tasmanian spring water for my last three brews for this reason. I dunno where Cascade get their water but they use Tassie water as an advertising pitch, the beer is very good though.
> Cheers



Boagsy,

I assume you don't live in Hobart, because that is the best water I think I've tasted anywhere in the country.


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## Dazza_devil (1/5/09)

Nah not in Hobart, I'm on the NW Coast. The tap water here really does seem to vary, at times appearing to be dependent upon the amount of recent rainfall.


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## benjy1984 (3/5/09)

I use a weak solution of ordinary dishwasher detergent as a cleaner, then sterilise with a 1% solution of 1:1 bleach/vinegar (add bleach to water, stir, then add vinegar). By lowering the pH you significantly increase the sterilising power of the bleach solution. Just do it in a well ventilated place, as you should with all chemicals!  

Just before adding the wort I rinse with metabisulfite solution. This has the benefit of reducing and removing any bleach that has clung to the fermenter and is a sterilant in its own right. All of these compounds are readily available and cheap.


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## NickB (3/5/09)

You would want to be rinsing the metabisulphate solution out thoroughly before dumping your wort in.... Kind of counterproductive I feel.

Dump the Metabisulphate all together, and either go just the bleach/vinegar or starsan.

Cheers


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## kook (3/5/09)

BrisBen said:


> I use a weak solution of ordinary dishwasher detergent as a cleaner, then sterilise with a 1% solution of 1:1 bleach/vinegar (add bleach to water, stir, then add vinegar). By lowering the pH you significantly increase the sterilising power of the bleach solution. Just do it in a well ventilated place, as you should with all chemicals!



Actually - you're not just increasing the sanitising power through lowering the pH - you're creating a reaction that produces chlorine gas.

If you're using appropriate respiratory masks and eye protection then I can't see a problem. If you're not though - you're taking a pretty big (and IMO unnecessary) risk. It's a gas that can easily burn eyes and lungs, and if the gas concentration is high enough it will kill.

Sanitisers like StarSan, Saniclean, Iodphor, One Shot, etc etc are cheap, effective and won't kill you unless you do something incredibly stupid like drink them undiluted.


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## benjy1984 (3/5/09)

NickB - why would you rinse the metabisulphite out? It's a relatively benign compound and many people use it in the wort to remove chloramines from water treatment.

Kook - The 1:1 mixture lowers the pH enough to move the equilibrium of the reaction ClO- + H+ <-> HOCl + H+ <-> Cl2 + H2O from the left end in alkaline solution to the middle at pH 6-7. Dilute bleach is a fairly poor disinfectant, whereas by making the solution neutral, you increase the disinfecting power of the solution, through the increase in concentration of hypochlorous acid without vastly increasing the amount of chlorine gas. The key is to ensure that you only add enough vinegar to neutralise the sodium hydroxide that is added to bleach to increase its shelf life.

I'd rather do this than use StarSan as a no-rinse sanitiser and leave dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid (see MSDS http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Dodecylben...ic_acid-9923881) in my beer!


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## kook (3/5/09)

BrisBen said:


> Kook - The 1:1 mixture lowers the pH enough to move the equilibrium of the reaction ClO- + H+ <-> HOCl + H+ <-> Cl2 + H2O from the left end in alkaline solution to the middle at pH 6-7. Dilute bleach is a fairly poor disinfectant, whereas by making the solution neutral, you increase the disinfecting power of the solution, through the increase in concentration of hypochlorous acid without vastly increasing the amount of chlorine gas. The key is to ensure that you only add enough vinegar to neutralise the sodium hydroxide that is added to bleach to increase its shelf life.
> 
> I'd rather do this than use StarSan as a no-rinse sanitiser and leave dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid (see MSDS http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Dodecylben...ic_acid-9923881) in my beer!



The problem is - people read posts like the previous one and ignore the 1% part. I didn't see any sort of warning to people of the risks associated with it if they screw up the mix? Mix it up at a higher percentage without knowing, and you'll kill yourself.

Whats the problem with LABSA/DBSA at extremely low amounts? As I said - if you drink undiluted StarSan you'd be a bit screwed, but it's added as a surfactant, so the percentage would presumably be very low, even in the undiluted StarSan. Once diluted, it's a trace amount.

Some commercial breweries use a PAA / LABSA mix for sanitising small vessels that can't be CIP. Many use Iodophor (which often has LABSA too) for sanitising fittings, hosing, etc. Should we be concerned with drinking commercial beer? How about milk (where Iodophor is also used in some cases) ?


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## NickB (3/5/09)

BrisBen - unless you're using an extremely dilute solution, I would be worried about the metabisulphate affecting the flavour and aroma of your beer. Doesn't come anywhere near my brewery - horrible stinky stuff!

Cheers


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