# Berlinner weisse. A cube full of spew?



## mje1980 (20/9/14)

Ok, so I tried to brew my first berlinner.

Mashed as normal, the left the BIAB bag in the kettle, and the next morning i pitched wyeast lacto 5335. I put the heatbelt on, as it normally keeps my fermentors at 30-32. But, maybe being a ss keggle, after 2 days I checked and it was only 26 . Turned the gas on and got it to 35, then put foam around the outside. After another 24hrs ( this morning ) I removed the bag and boiled for 30mins ( I'm away from tomorrow so wanted/needed to get it done ) with some hops.

Well, the boil freaking stank pretty bad, kind of a mix of pongy sock and spew ( mm yum ). Thankfully the wife and kids had eaten breakfast ( garage internal door comes into the kitchen ).

Wasn't sure if it was normal or what, so I just cubed it and am now airing the garage and boiling some water and sodium perc in the keggle before I go to bed for night shift.


Any thoughts ?.


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## dent (20/9/14)

My understanding is you have you keep it warm enough to make the spew-generating bacteria unhappy (35-45 degrees? don't quite remember), but the lacto will still crank away at that temp. Pitching lacto into grain seems a bit redundant to me too.


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## mje1980 (20/9/14)

Yeah, I thought by pitching the wyeast lacto I'd avoid other bugs that'd be in the grain, so i got the wort to 85 before dropping. After I wondered why I couldn't just pull the bag and just ferment the wort itself, seeing as I'd pasteurised it. 

Been doing some Google fu and it seems that pitching brett may ( in time of course ) help clean it up. It's been boiled now and cubed. Next week I might hit it with some dry yeast, and if it's too rank I'll either ditch it, or pitch brett. I think I've got more funky fermentors than normal ones now, so another won't hurt I guess.

Next time I'll just run off into a plastic fermentor, leave overnight then pitch the lacto. With a heatbelt on my plastic fermentors in my ferm fridge I can comfortably hold 35c steadily. Then pitch sacch after a few days.


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## mje1980 (20/9/14)

I just had a thought. I may use the cube as a fermentor. I have a siphon so transfer wouldn't be an issue. I've also got the American farmhouse funky strain, wlp 670 so I might just build that up and pitch it. Might not technically be a berlinner weisse but hey, I could leave it for 6 months and see what happens. 

In the meantime I could brew a saison, then just do a big starter so I can pitch it into both. I'd at least get one decent beer haha


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## vykuza (20/9/14)

oh mje! You gotta power through the spew! Gotta let the lacto take control next time!


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## mje1980 (20/9/14)

I think I'll dump it and try again. Once I added some foam insulation the temp was pretty good, 2deg drop overnight, but it had been at 26 for 48hrs so I think clostridium had gone to town on the wort by then. 

I'll try again definitely though. 



Was pretty funny, my youngest was holding her nose haha. Had to burn some incense to mask the smell. It was as if someone had eaten a block of Parmesan, and then spewed it up !


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## shmang (20/9/14)

This might be worth 

Its a presentation by [SIZE=12.8000001907349px]Jess Caudill of Wyeast Laboratories during American National Homebrewers Conference 2012 on brewing (mainly covers [/SIZE]fermentation[SIZE=12.8000001907349px]) of Berlinner weisse.[/SIZE]


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## hijukal (23/9/14)

shmang said:


> This might be worth



Interesting presentation, thanks for linking.

I'm planning on trying this method next month, as I have a couple of days off and will be able to babysit it.


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## mje1980 (24/9/14)

Cheers guys, haven't got around to checking out the links, but I'm going to try again on sat so I'll have a look before then. 

I think ill just go with using a fermentor and heat belt in my ferm fridge. I know I can keep it at 35 in there with no problems. I'm pretty sure the lower temp was to blame. I'll boil for 10mins, then drain into the fermentor, and place into the fridge, pitch lacto first, then ale yeast. Bottle into champagne bottles with high carb

I'm dumping this batch, cube and all haha.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (24/9/14)

I got the 'spew' effect in the fermenter. It was there a little when the beer was young, but settled down.

It did poorly in the TSHBC - but I reckon with another month (which is when I started on it), it would have been another story. It grows on you a bit.


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## vykuza (24/9/14)

PM me your address mje and I'll post you a couple of bottles of my latest BW - spew and all!


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## Not For Horses (24/9/14)

That spew smell is butyric acid. most brett strains will eat that and turn it into ethyl butyrate which is fruity and pear like.
Don't dump it yet, chuck some brett in and see what happens!


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## mje1980 (24/9/14)

I read that about Brett, as a way of saving it but jeez, I've got 3 funky fermenters already, 4 when I brew this next weisse. And honestly, the stench is vomit inducing


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## Beersuit (24/9/14)

I had a cube of a sour wort swell after sitting on my shed floor for 3 weeks 5 months ago. Pitched it with wy lambic blend anyway and smelt like vomit for the first 3 months. It is starting to get better now and is hardly noticable. I would say let it ride mate. I'm hoping the Brett will turn mine into something special in a year or so. Never know if gets tipped.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (24/9/14)

Good advice.

Everything I've read says that BW get better with time (must be the initials because barleywines are the same). If the cube is a 'sour' cube, it won't make an ounce of difference to the cube if you let it hang on a bit.


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## Beersuit (24/9/14)

Your so right LRG. 
Cubes and fermenters are cheap compared to the time taken and ingredients to brew a beer. If it takes a year it's a year your without that kit anyway.


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## Kai (24/9/14)

I've done a lot of sour mashes in the last year or two. Yes, a bit of time (and brett) may well clean it up, but if you want a fast turnaround sour then it can be done without the pongy bits.

I mash and lauter as normal (i.e. don't sour on the grain). Pitch a lacto culture and hold a warm temperature as you've done, or I've also found a handful or raw wheat works well too. Or acidulated malt. Or an Inner Health Plus capsule or two. They all behave slightly differently, but they've all worked for me in past. You should get a day or two in with a pH drop to 3.6 - 3.9 and a clean sour aroma not dissimilar to lemon curd. You may get some corn and tomato soup DMS characters, but they fade. A 30' boil tends to drive off any residual DMS

In a Berliner Weisse style low-gravity high-wheat wort, this works really well and a quick clean ferment can produce a crackingly good sour that's best drunk within a few weeks...


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## hefevice (22/10/14)

Kai said:


> [snip]
> I mash and lauter as normal (i.e. don't sour on the grain). Pitch a lacto culture and hold a warm temperature as you've done, or I've also found a handful or raw wheat works well too. Or acidulated malt. Or an Inner Health Plus capsule or two. They all behave slightly differently, but they've all worked for me in past. You should get a day or two in with a pH drop to 3.6 - 3.9 and a clean sour aroma not dissimilar to lemon curd. You may get some corn and tomato soup DMS characters, but they fade. A 30' boil tends to drive off any residual DMS
> [snip]


During the lactic ferment, do you take measures to exclude oxygen?

I was thinking of doing the lactic fermentation and pasteurisation (add hops, heat to 100C) in my HLT (has an electric element) before cooling, transferring to a fermenter and pitching yeast. However using this method it would be difficult to keep oxygen out of the HLT. Do you anticipate any problems?


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## mje1980 (1/11/14)

Ok 2nd attempt coming up. My plan is as follows


1.) pitch lacto and wort into fermentor

2.) after 24-48 hrs add German ale yeast ( 1007 ) starter.

3.) leave til gravity is done. 

4.) leave it for a week then bottle half into champagne bottles with lots a sugaz, and the other half I'm going to add to one of my smaller funky fermentors with some brett c and leave for a few months, then bottle into champagne bottles. 

Probably be the end of summer before they're ready, but it looks as though, as with all funky beers, the longer they sit the better.


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## mje1980 (4/11/14)

German ale pitched the other day do should be done soon. Going to take a reading tonight. And a taste


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## mje1980 (5/11/14)

1.005 and a little "pongy sock" character about it. So far pretty happy. Tomorrow I'm brewing another batch to put on the slurry.


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## Kai (11/11/14)

hefevice said:


> During the lactic ferment, do you take measures to exclude oxygen?
> 
> I was thinking of doing the lactic fermentation and pasteurisation (add hops, heat to 100C) in my HLT (has an electric element) before cooling, transferring to a fermenter and pitching yeast. However using this method it would be difficult to keep oxygen out of the HLT. Do you anticipate any problems?


I've done it a lot of times in a vessel much like yours with no O2 related issues like acetic acid bacteria pickup. But I have had wild yeast growth on several occasions with this method. I've found that boosting the temperature above the tolerance of yeast (>37°C) has helped there, but i haven't got an established enough method to recommend anything totally specific. 

If you have kegging gear, it does not hurt to purge the vessel with CO2 first, and to sparge the wort post-filling (and purge the headspace). And a little clingwrap around the lid is not a bad idea either. Then resist the temptation to open it for a day or two, and if you do, repurge with more CO2.

Cheers,

Kai


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## mje1980 (12/11/14)

Has anybody used the slurry of their Berliners?. I just bottled today and pitched another cube onto half the yeast cake. Few hours later and it seems to have kicked off ok. 

I've read that the slurry can make for a more sour beer, so interested to see. 


I ended up adding orval dregs a few days ago. Smelt pretty nice when bottling, didn't taste crazy sour either. I'll see how it ages in the bottle. I also split 5 litres off into a small fermentor with 1kg of cherries.


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## rehabs_for_quitters (14/11/14)

thinking about mashing in a 40L batch this arvo, now was going to split into two batches and was going to put 2kg of frozen strawberries with one carboy and one just straight, until now I haven't used fruit so would that go alright or do I need to sterilize them fruits first?


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## seamad (15/11/14)

Frozen fruit has been fine in my experience.


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## yankinoz (15/11/14)

Question for this forum: how well do beers made by souring the mash stack up to conventional Berlinerweissen that are soured post-mash and post-boil, that is, in a long fermentation? I ask because beers made the traditional way are among my favorites, but I'm not about to dedicate a fermenter to one for several months.


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## rehabs_for_quitters (15/11/14)

I'm 21 hours into a sour mash, its foamy and brown and it stinks in a good way I hope, its doing something hopefully it doesn't climb out of the pot as I am thinking about letting it go 48 hours in total before the boil


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## mje1980 (15/11/14)

I've only done one sour mash. As you may have read, it ended badly. I just bottled my first batch fermented with wyeast lacto for a few days then 1007 added after that, and Orval dregs a few days before bottling. Samples are tasting very nice. So nice I brewed another one and pitched it on the yeast cake.


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## rehabs_for_quitters (16/11/14)

48 hours of sour mash then boiled for 30 minutes just to be safe, I am glad I did this in the garage as it smells like dank undies after a week tramping then left in your pack for another week,


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## mje1980 (22/11/14)

I tried a tester of mine last night. Very light bodied and dry, a little pongy sock, not too much sourness and no brett, which is understandable given it's only 2 weeks in the bottle. I think over time this could be quite nice. I'll crack one at Xmas. The batch I pitched into the yeast cake has been split into 2 fermentors and I'm going to let it age a few months before bottling. I may even add raspberries to one of them.


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## rehabs_for_quitters (23/11/14)

Just had test from the hydro sample both carboys at 1.008 and look to be finished, doesn't smell as crotchy as it did, I think 200grams of Pils malt for 48 hours might have been too long as its sour as and almost a bit puckery, might go 24 hours next time, I think its time to get a good PH meter and use that to test it after 24 hours and then use that level as a future guideline

Bet the BJCP are glad we aren't writing the style guidelines as I am sure a little pongy sock and crotchy are possibly not good characteristics of a beer


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## Jazzman (9/2/15)

Quick newbie question.
What beer can I go and buy to try this sour beer you blokes seem to love so much?
I didn't even know there was such a thing until I got on this forum. What a ride!


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## mikk (10/2/15)

A homebrew club!

The locally made commercial ones I've tried have been pretty lacklustre, and haven't been particularly sour. Add to that the fact that they aren't carbonated anywhere near enough due to having to be served on tap, and that bottle conditioning & some aging are extremely beneficial for the style means it's all too hard to do properly unless you're a homebrewer.

Maybe you could find a Berliner Kindl at some import beer places?


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## rehabs_for_quitters (10/2/15)

I got the Dogfish Head Peche and tasted my two and that one together, not far off sour wise to what I did but mine had an after twang which I assume was just bad process and slight oxygenation when doing the sour mash, so from now on will put a CO2 blanket on top of the mash

Just jump in and do a sour mash its best way to taste one, go on I dare you to

I found the strawberry in mine really cut through the harsh puckering acidic sourness that the straight one seemed to suffer from, great beer to have on a stinking hot day though pretty close to Brut Sparkling Wine, maybe not quite as dry though but bloody refreshing


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## dannymars (13/7/15)

mje1980 said:


> I tried a tester of mine last night. Very light bodied and dry, a little pongy sock, not too much sourness and no brett, which is understandable given it's only 2 weeks in the bottle. I think over time this could be quite nice. I'll crack one at Xmas. The batch I pitched into the yeast cake has been split into 2 fermentors and I'm going to let it age a few months before bottling. I may even add raspberries to one of them.


how's the beer now after a few months on?


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## mje1980 (13/7/15)

Funny you ask. I tried one yesterday, taste I'm happy with, though carbonation is lower than I'd like, and this style I think really needs a spritz to it. A few months in the bottle has upped the tartness a little, could do with more but I'll definately brew another. I think this time I'll add some Orval dregs and us05 for a few days before bottling and up the priming sugaz.


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