# Designing a recipe



## Ducatiboy stu (3/4/14)

Over the years I have seen many ask about designing an AG/extract/whatever and the same mistakes get made.

I have designed a recipe with 500 grains and 100 hops....will it work?

Yes..well...maybe.

A good beer needs balance. A balance of grains and hops.

You need to look at the balance of grains in overall sweetness. Too much Crystal can make a beer too sweet. To much Choc Malt can make it bitter.

You need to balance your hop bitterness to suit the sweetness of your grain bill. SG:IBU is a ratio that I have not seen talked about for years on here with regard the overall recipe design. It is an essential ratio when designing a beer. Different beers have different ratios.

An example:

A Coopers Pale Ale is roughly [email protected]

Ratio of 55:35.

An IPA is obviuosly a higher SG:IBU

Another thing I have noticed is that brewers want to use heaps of different malts in the grain biill.

You don't need to. Select the right amount of grains in good ratios and you will get great beer.Try designing a beer with 3 malts. Most good beers only need 3. Sometimes 4.

Hops. There are so many hop varieties that your head can explode. But, keep your hop bill to 1 or 2. Dont overcomplicate a simple enjoyable beer. 3 hops are great if you balance the bitterness-flav-aroma. Look at your bitternes/flav/aroma. They all need to be balanced and the right hops need to be used for the right addition. POR is a great bittering hop if used up to 30ibu (at 55 SG) . Makes a less than ordinarry flavour and even worse aroma.

I hope this thread is about designing and how to balance your beers

My above comments will not suit everyone, and are what I have learnt. Some love their 10min ales, others like SMASH.

All styles have their place and all styles should be encouraged.

This thread is hopefully about designing and helping those design their own from scratch.


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## Fat Bastard (3/4/14)

S' funny Stu, I've been thinking of making a similar thread for ages. I mostly try to do my own recipes from scratch, and have done since I did my first AG brew nearly 3 years ago. If I don't develop the recipe from scratch, I'll take a known recipe and modify it to what I have in stock or what I can easily get.

I think the important thing is to know your ingredients and to have a specific goal in mind. The other thing is to brew, and brew often, but keep records and don't change too much at any one time. I've been brewing AG for nearly three years now, and have been trying to come up with 4-5 recipes that are better than just good. But... Not just a good recipe, something that can be modified into something else. Currently I'm working on a saison, that can have various additions to make something outrageous. I did a beetroot saison recently based on a straight saison that is good on its own. My imperial porter has bourbon and vanilla in it, but would be good with US 05 and chipotle or just on its own. I've got a number of friends who think my first AG was my best when though it was under bitter for an IPA and had little aroma hops it was a fine malty dry ale.

Just brew, experiment, take notes and have fun!


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/4/14)

Records are important. You need a base line to go back to.

That's how I evolved my Pillar of Red & Pillar of Stout. My Pillar of Porter is lost...but it was based around Cararoma....1060:45Ibu

My 3x3x3 ale is shit simple. 3 malts , 3hops, 3 additions.


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## idzy (3/4/14)

I lol when people type it recipie 

Good write up Stu. Recipe formulation from scratch is not something I have done much of, because I am only new to brewing. I must say software like BeerSmith certainly helps me. To give you some constraints or guides for particular styles. It has helped me immensely.

Cheers,
Idzy


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## Cocko (3/4/14)

Ok, I will _try_ and add to this too..

Recipe building can be broken down to 3 simple parts; as crazy as it seems;

1. Grain Bill or grist
2. Hops used and when
3. yeast used

So, I spent about 3 years using the same grain bill and yeast ONLY ever changing hops - from this I learnt how the hops affect or more so flavoured my beer, also what they brought to the table - Bitterness quality etc.

I always used to start with 91% base and 9% crystal.... So that was the rule of thumb. THEN, change that up - so the 91% would change from JW ale or briess pale or MO or etc.. then then the 9-10% would alter from Crystal to dark crystal to caramunich to carrared etc..

I guess all I can share now is:

Never go more than 10% specialty malt - preferbably 7-8% - depending on your hopping.

The basic answer is: Brew it and LEARN what it does, than you can go from there... IMO.

5c.


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## manticle (3/4/14)

Get to know ingredients.
Get to know process.
Get to know equipment
Relate all the above to results.


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## Fat Bastard (3/4/14)

Hypothesis, theory, experiment, results, change and repeat as necessary.


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## Cocko (3/4/14)

Fat Bastard said:


> Hypothesis, theory, experiment, results, change and repeat as necessary.


Agree with that Fat Bastard:

Get naked, Let the wind blow, lift your arms up like an Eagle, BOOM beer.. Taste, and adjust.




Ok, bed.


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/4/14)

Hops are important in how and when you use them.

Say you want 30IBU overall.

How many IBU do you want for bittering ?
How many IBU do you want for aroma ?
How many IBU do you want for flavour ?

A simple pale would be for me @30 IBU with SG1050

22 IBU bitternes
5 IBU aroma
3 IBU flavour

Now looking at that, the aroma & flavour seem rather small. But it will make a nicely balanced beer.

You need to remember that the less boil time, the more hops you need to make the same IBU. And if you use say POR for bittering @15AA and SAAz for the rest @5AA you are going to need A LOT more Saaz to get those last 8 IBU than you POR. Infact you may use more Saaz than POR.

The different hop oils give different qualities.

Beta Acids - lupulone,colupulone & adlupulone
Alpha Acids - humulone,cohumulone,adhumulone

Its the ratios of these oils that give a Hop its characteristic.

Most brewers look at AA%...but that is not the sum total of what the bitternes of a hop can provide


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## Spiesy (4/4/14)

Fat Bastard said:


> The other thing is to brew, and brew often, but keep records and don't change too much at any one time.


The nail has been well and truly hit on the head.

I get so excited about brewing, I used to change heaps of facets of the recipe… I'd analyse a brew and take notes of ALL the things I wanted to change: body, residual sweetness (or dryness), bitterness, alc%, colour, hop aroma and taste, grain aroma and taste - and make so many changes, I wouldn't learn about all the changes to process and ingredients I had made.

Now I force myself to generally make one critical adjustment per recipe. Evaluate. And proceed.

Stu, I'm also a fan of GU:BU ratio. I use it in my brewing software as a benchmark in all recipe formulations.


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## lael (4/4/14)

This recipe was an epiphany for me regarding simplicity of grain bill. Drinking the beer I never would have guessed. Incredibly tasty and prob the next beer in the line up. 

http://www.skotrat.com/skotrat/recipes/ale/scottish/recipes/10.html


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/4/14)

Yep. Thats a super simple one. Less can often be best.


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## gap (4/4/14)

_What about different mash temperatures and multiple step mashes at different temperatures?_

_How does GU:BU ratio equate when you have 2 brews both 55:35 but one has 5% Crystal and the other has 15% Crystal? _


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## warra48 (4/4/14)

gap said:


> _What about different mash temperatures and multiple step mashes at different temperatures?_
> 
> _How does GU:BU ratio equate when you have 2 brews both 55:35 but one has 5% Crystal and the other has 15% Crystal? _


That's where your choice of yeast comes into play.

The 5% Crystal brew could be fermented with a relatively low attenuating yeast to leave some sweetness and body, or with a higher attenuating yeast if you want to ferment to a drier result.
There's no way I'd ever brew a 15% Crystal beer, but it would need a highly attenuative yeast to make it drinkable for me.
Same with a brew mashed at say 63ºC compared to one at 70ºC.

Again, it comes down to what several before have said, keep records and evaluate.


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## Bizenya (4/4/14)

Its funny, and I know I'm still a kook in the HB world but when I tried to get 'fancy' after discovering that I could use grains and different hops into kits years ago is when I made my WORST beer- knocked all my confidence out of me. I was using better ingredients and getting worse beer from this compared with a can kit plus dex. Just got whhhaayyy to big for my boots, no idea of the combo, just that I could use all these fancy things to make something amazing. Hence, HB got a little hard with very little reward (cleaning bottles etc. and getting a basically non-drinkable product that needed to be tipped)

Im starting easy again, making recipes from LHBS or direct from the Coopers web site (I'm still only kit and maybe extract certified still) and just hoping to make a great few 'easy' straight forward brews, enjoy some beer, as well as the process I undertook to make it


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## aussiebrewer (4/4/14)

Love the thread. Great info keep up the good work. I have been telling so many of my brewing mates for years to cut a lot if the ingredients out of their recipes, some with up to 6-8 grains and then other ingredients like honey and rice. They try my beer and think I'm lying when I say it has 2 grains and 2 hops. I'm sending them all a link to this thread 


Cheers 
Matt


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## rbtmc (5/4/14)

manticle said:


> Get to know ingredients.
> Get to know process.
> Get to know equipment
> Relate all the above to results.


Yeah I went straight from SMASH's to big/complex/fruit/out-there beers.
Now I'm keeping it dead simple again and making sure I've got the home-brewery in order.
I.e. I've realised sanitation, yeast management, draught balancing, etc. are all things I need to put more focus on before I get wild with recipes.


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## pk.sax (5/4/14)

I used to add a little wheat, a little Munich etc to recipes, mainly changing one spec/base malt and the hops. Then use different yeasts. It gave good results but I wasn't learning anything about the ingredients.

I've since switched to mashing base only grists, using a single hop with a 2 malt grist, steeping the spec malt and adding it to half a brew, using different regional varietals of the same parent hop. Things like that, that pronounce a thing each time.

Mashing only pils malt I finally saw that grey layer that accumulates on top of the grain bed. It isn't very apparent with a mixed grist because of the darker colours. A lot of recipes I read for English styles used both ekg and fuggles together. I made a couple that way but the flavour was too rounded for my liking, a bit samey. I'd done an IPA in the past that I massively aroma hopped with EKG only and enjoyed a lot so lately I've been on a mission to discover fuggles, styrians again and willamette. One by one I'll go back to combining them with other hops. Wish I brewed more so I can learn quicker, but oh well...


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## manticle (5/4/14)

gap said:


> _What about different mash temperatures and multiple step mashes at different temperatures?_
> 
> _How does GU:BU ratio equate when you have 2 brews both 55:35 but one has 5% Crystal and the other has 15% Crystal? _


Bu:GU (not something I personally use) is simply a guide on one way to help balance a beer recipe.

It should never be taken as gospel precisely because of other variables, as you point out.

There are ideas, principles, combinations etc that a brewer can apply but just like cooking or gardening or many other things, context will alter the application. That's why I go back to my idea above - whatever you do - be able to relate that process or ingredient or whatever to your results. If you can't do that, simplify until you can. If you don't know what Dingemans special B is adding to a beer, why are you adding it? If you don't know what decocted pils malt tastes like, why are you doing it?


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## Ducatiboy stu (5/4/14)

IBU:SG ratios are not set in stone but they are what maeks an IPA from ESB. You do have leway when using it. From this ratio you can determine how much hops to use

Here is a basic table that can help determin where to start

Barley wine ......... 0.94
Ord Bitter ........... 1.28
Spec Bitter........... 0.73
ESB....................... 0.86
Pale...................... 0.91
IPA ....................... 0.95
Bock...................... 0.27-0.45
Steam.................... 0.8-0.90
Mild & Brown........ 0.50-0.70
USA Brown............ 0.90-1.0
Old Ale.................. 0.48-0.58
Pilsener.................. 0.75-0.80
Rob Porter............. 0.90
Brwn Porter...........0.70
Scottish................. 0.3-0.6
Stout...................... 1.0
Sweet Stout............ 0.50
Vienna,Okt............. 0.5-0.57
Weizen/Wit............ 0.35

You will notice some beees like Ordinary bitter have more IBU than SG points...so when formulating you would get 

51 IBU for an SG of 1040

Where as a Scotish will be

20 IBU for an SG of 1040.


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## Muzduk (5/4/14)

Thats a good reference Stu..As i'm new to Ag and Brewsmith, i really should be pushing up to the red zone to get these ratios?? Will be a while before i can taste and try but tended to think somewhere in the middle ground would see me right?!


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## Donske (5/4/14)

Muzduk said:


> Thats a good reference Stu..As i'm new to Ag and Brewsmith, i really should be pushing up to the red zone to get these ratios?? Will be a while before i can taste and try but tended to think somewhere in the middle ground would see me right?!



It's personal taste mate, you will need to brew the beers and figure it out for yourself, I personally like American styles at the high end, British styles about medium range and continental European styles about mid range as a general rule but there are certain beers I differ from that again.

There is a lot of trial and error involved is what I've found.


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## Ducatiboy stu (5/4/14)

It is personall taste. Some like hoppy beers, some dont. 

The IBU:SG gives you a point to start with if you want to keep within the style parameters.

Once you get a base line of what YOU like, then you can start tweaking to suit


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## Muzduk (5/4/14)

Yeah i know there's no right or wrong, just maybe wondering if Beersmith erred on the side of caution or is pretty much to "style"


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## Ducatiboy stu (5/4/14)

Dont know. 

Does beersmith give you an IBU:SG ..


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## Muzduk (5/4/14)

Yep my first pale ale is 0.713 so not bursting but just under halfway. 35.8 total IBU's.

To clarify i'm not after anything definitive, just curious


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## Ducatiboy stu (5/4/14)

.7 is pretty good

My best pales where 35IBU : 55SG


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## Ducatiboy stu (5/4/14)

What you can do with that recipe is to alter the bittering/aroma/flavour ratios but keep the same overall IBU's. Keep your grain bill the same if it turns out ok.

This will give you valuable information on how different hops work in a beer.

A great way to play with hops is Single Malt And Single Hops and alter your addition ratio's.


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## nala (5/4/14)

I have brewed for over 6 years, and although I have 87 all grain brews experience find myself still learning.
My default brews are generated by using Brewmate recipe designer, I do have Beersmith but never use it.
My constraint on batch size is 5 kgs of grain for a 20 litre batch size, I would not be interested in bigger OG than can be produced
by using more than this amount of grain anyway.
My recipes are based around 3 malts.... base grain....96 %
Crystal..........2 %boil,
Wheat............2 %
I use no more than 2 bittering hops to a 90 minute boil, I no longer make further additions,but, achieve my aroma and flavour
by keg hop additions, all of which are low in alpha acid because in my experience, high AA hops impart a lot of bitterness even
at a temperature of 18 degrees in the keg...I secondary condition using dextrose in the keg.
The SG/BU that I find is a very acceptable start is 70%.
I do like to try new hops and find that I can best evaluate them if I keep to my default grain bill, I have never done controlled experiments with different yeasts,but SO 4 has never let me down.
Ray Daniels....Designing Great Beers is a good example of not over complicating brewing, it is a simple process to brew beer
all beers, in my experience ae drinkable, a few I want to brew again.
Good topic, bound to stir up some different views.


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## Muzduk (5/4/14)

Thanks DBS,Should be a good base to work off then.. Was virtually a smash MO, Amarillo and just a touch of galaxy near end. Cheers


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## Ducatiboy stu (5/4/14)

Ray Daniels book is a must have.

It contains no recipies 

But its a book that gives you the knowledge needed. Anyone getting into brewing should buy it. Purely for the technical info in it


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## Bribie G (5/4/14)

I got into AG specifically to brew British Real Ales, and found Graham Wheeler's UK Real Ales book to be brilliant.

From there I branched out into other styles such as APAs and Lagers, once I'd learned the ropes, and discovered that one of the best "recipe books" is simply the BJCP style guidelines.
With that and BrewMate and some forum searches I can make a close attempt at just about every style.

I've got Brewing Classic Styles etc on my bookshelf but rarely look into them. As Stu says, once you get a handle on IBUs, gravities, malts etc and have got through your apprenticeship the world is your oyster ...

stout

B)


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## Ducatiboy stu (5/4/14)

English ales can be hard.

The hardest I have tried is Mild Ale. Basically a mid strenght...about 3.5%..

But you still need to keep you IBU:SG in check


Alc % gives a mouth feel, and when you get to the lower end you dont get that "big beer" feel
, along with residual sugars

This is when mash temps can come into it. 

The temprature between dry & seeet beers is only about 6*c...

A mild can benefit from a higher mash temp. Higher mash temps gives a less fermentable wort, giving less Alc% but more mouth feel due to more sugars left in the beer. 

I have brewed my Stout (Pillar of Stout ) with low & high mash temps and the difference was noticable

My Scottish ( Pillar of Red ) needs a higher mash temp, gives it that extra sweetness. But in saying that, yeast is also important for your style


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## rockeye84 (5/4/14)

great info mate. thanks again...


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## Ducatiboy stu (5/4/14)

There is more to come.

This thread is not about how you should make beer

Its about giving you the knowledge to make better beer. 

And hopefully, you will gain knowledge about how YOU can make better beer.

We all make different beers to our own tastes. 

Its about sharing knowledge with those that are starting, and those long term brewers.

I dont think there is a brewer on here over the years that has not learnt something.

AHB is, and has been a great forum for brewing knowledge, and its the knowledge on here that is available for all brewers, at all levels, is what its all about


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## nala (5/4/14)

Bribie G said:


> I got into AG specifically to brew British Real Ales, and found Graham Wheeler's UK Real Ales book to be brilliant.
> 
> From there I branched out into other styles such as APAs and Lagers, once I'd learned the ropes, and discovered that one of the best "recipe books" is simply the BJCP style guidelines.
> With that and BrewMate and some forum searches I can make a close attempt at just about every style.
> ...


+1 To that.
I too have Graham Wheelers book on Brewing British Beers, he keeps everything quite simple, hence my using a maximum of only 2 bittering addition at 90 minutes boil. The flavour and aroma hops are low in AA, which is another god practice.


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## MHB (5/4/14)

There are some great ideas posted above but for me the first and most important step is to have a goal!

*Define the beer you want to make*, write down a specification for the beer, then gather all the information on the style, brew your first draft and make adjustments toward a clear objective.

A good specification has to contain (not in any particular order)
Colour - helps you choose specialty malts
Alcohol Content - linked to OG & FG and that gives you apparent attenuation which helps with choosing yeast and mash regime
Bitterness - Hop choices
Mouth feel - mash temperature and specialty malts
Aroma - Hop choices and yeast

A good trick when starting out is to download a beer judging form, read the style guide for something near what you want to brew and then do a virtual scoring of your imagined/planed beer, then do a ruthless self judging when you have the beer in your hand (or mouth..), like I said above having a plan is where it all starts.
Mark


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## Ducatiboy stu (5/4/14)

Yes. You need to know what you want to brew. And stick to it

A Stout can be very easy. A Scottish can be rather hard.

Some beers can hide faults, other beers can make you kick your fermenter over.

If you want to brew a particular beer properly, then be prepared to have a few failures before you get it.


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## pk.sax (6/4/14)

Re Mark's comment - that is the one reason why I keep going back to using brew pal on the phone, you can plug in ingredients and then it scores the various aspects of the expected product against the styles and degree of fit. Makes it easy to see where and which I am pushing the boundaries for a style and if I really want that.


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## danestead (8/4/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Hops are important in how and when you use them.
> Say you want 30IBU overall.
> How many IBU do you want for bittering ?
> How many IBU do you want for aroma ?
> ...


Gday ducati,

I am only 18 months into all grain brewing (although ive been around it for about 5 yrs) and something has seemed to click and I now have enough knowledge to sit infront of promash and make up a recipe from scratch. A year ago I would have no idea because I didnt have the experience and knowledge of which grain plays which part in a grain bill.

Now that ive started brewing my own recipes I ask you the question, why do you relate IBUs to late kettle additions? I generally go by a g/L scale and then just add the remaining bitterness as a 60min addition. Does maybe a high alpha hop have a stronger flavour or aroma than a low alpha hop? I didnt think so however ive never looked into it either.


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## verysupple (9/4/14)

I particularly like this bit 



Ducatiboy stu said:


> Another thing I have noticed is that brewers want to use heaps of different malts in the grain biill.
> 
> You don't need to. Select the right amount of grains in good ratios and you will get great beer.Try designing a beer with 3 malts. Most good beers only need 3. Sometimes 4.


Although I'd even go more conservative. A great beer can be made with one malt. Don't get me wrong, not all styles are best with one malt. But only add spec. grains if you think it'll _add_ something. Malt complexity is great, but it's so easy to go overboard and add either too much of one spec. grain and over power everything or simply use too many and muddle the characteristics.

And for my 2c: As some others have hinted at, it's hard to make a truly awful beer if your processes are OK. Start off with a simple recipe and see what it tastes like. Then add (or subtract) ingredients to achieve your desired result. if you make a beer for the first time with a million ingredients, who knows what's right or wrong?


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## Ducatiboy stu (9/4/14)

danestead said:


> Gday ducati,
> 
> Now that ive started brewing my own recipes I ask you the question, why do you relate IBUs to late kettle additions? I generally go by a g/L scale and then just add the remaining bitterness as a 60min addition. Does maybe a high alpha hop have a stronger flavour or aroma than a low alpha hop? I didnt think so however ive never looked into it either.


Good question. A lot of older recipies called for g/L , but when using different AA% hops it can throw out the balance. Obviously a 15 AA% hop will be fifferent to a 5 AA%. If you use the IBU's at per addition you have a greater chance of keeping overall IBU's and you can get a better idea of how different hops perform ( taste,smell ) at the same IBU level. There is more to it as hops have differing levels and ratios of different oils. Generally a low AA hop is better suited to late additions.


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## davedoran (9/4/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Good question. A lot of older recipies called for g/L , but when using different AA% hops it can throw out the balance. Obviously a 15 AA% hop will be fifferent to a 5 AA%. If you use the IBU's at per addition you have a greater chance of keeping overall IBU's and you can get a better idea of how different hops perform ( taste,smell ) at the same IBU level. There is more to it as hops have differing levels and ratios of different oils. Generally a low AA hop is better suited to late additions.


Lots of good tips here which im learning from as per above.
What I have started doing is looking at highly recommended simple recipes and getting the figures (OG, FG, IBU, SRM) from it and then working out a new recipe on paper myself. Cant say this is the best way to do it but it works for me.

Question regarding dry hopping. Was thinking of a IPA recipe im putting together. Simcoe (13% AA) and Amarillo (8%) ive been told work really well together. Could they be good as a dry hop? Or best to leave as bittering/ flavour.


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## danestead (9/4/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Good question. A lot of older recipies called for g/L , but when using different AA% hops it can throw out the balance. Obviously a 15 AA% hop will be fifferent to a 5 AA%. If you use the IBU's at per addition you have a greater chance of keeping overall IBU's and you can get a better idea of how different hops perform ( taste,smell ) at the same IBU level. There is more to it as hops have differing levels and ratios of different oils. Generally a low AA hop is better suited to late additions.


Ok great, its good to hear the theory behind it. If you took it a step further and worked out your additions based on a certain level of the other oils (ie. beta acids, humulene, cohumulene, caryophyllene, myrcene etc) perhaps that would be a good way to do it rather than AA alone? Do any of those oils ive listed appeal to a specific use at all? ie is one of them great at flavour however another is great at aroma?


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## Ducatiboy stu (9/4/14)

Its more about ratio's. There are a lot of oils within a hop and its the type and ratios of these that give characteristics that determine if its more suited to straight bittering or more flav/ aroma. 

Generally aroma hops have
* Low AA%
* low myrcene content - less than 50%
* low cohumulone AA 
* Alpha to Beta ratios around 1:1
* Noble varieties have higher humulene:caryphyllene, generally above 3:1

Some of the hops have the following humulene:caryphyllene

Saaz..........4:1
EKG..........3.2:1
Fuggle......2.9:1
Chinook...2.25:1
Nugget.....2:1
POR..........0.73:1

With the following humulene:myrcen

Saaz..........1.89:1
EKG...........1.96:1
Fuggle.......0.51:1
Chinook....0.6:1
Nugget......0.3:1
POR......... 0.15:1


Hop chemistry is complex due to so many compounds initially present, and then those produced as a result of boiling and oxidisation.

To really go into it would create a very long post.


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## GrumpyPaul (9/4/14)

Can we get this thread made a "Sticky"?

This is hands down the best and most informative thread that has been on AHB for a long time.

Thanks to Dboy-Stu for not just starting it but for adding to it and answering questions and keeping it going.

Thanks also to anyone and evryone else that has added their knowledg to this.

:super:


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (9/4/14)

I'll have to add my words of congrats to DBS - well done on this thread. It's an excellent read.

I'll add in my thoughts on recipe generation, especially my APA/AIPA. 

I've pretty well done recipes from the start of my AG career with a look at other recipes for inspiration. I've only brewed one recipe, which is Tony's Monteiths' OA clone. Excellent recipe.

Having said that, as a rule I'm fairly conservative as a brewer, style wise, and my more out there brews (good and bad) have been either flukes (such as my Golden Strong Pale Lager, Smaragd hops blind, an overboil I forgot to dilute and US at about 14 degrees - which placed in QABC) and other more interesting brews (my Rauchroggenweiss which has a 19.5 point muddle mess).

My experience? Stick to a style. AABC style guidelines are the best guide there is. Brew with these in mind, and you won't have a bad recipe (though there will always be some improvements).

If you want to do something experimental - have a clear picture of what you want to do, and why. My Rauchroggenweiss is a point in question. With the QABC, you have to write what you were achieving in a category 18 beer. It was a waffle. Good indication that I wasn't doing any good. 

Contrast that to a black IPA - someone wanted to brew an IPA, but a bit of roast for colour and to dry it out a bit. Winner. American Brown? One wants to make an English style brown but one only has American hops. So one adjusts for that.

But - You are unlikely to invent a new, you beaut style of beer. So brewing a hybrid beer or a 'new style' just to create one will leave you quite likely with a batch of very average beer. Some want to push that - as a type of experimental art and are happy with a high risk of epic fail. Most want to brew a nice beer and will take a less 'out there' method.

As for recipe formulation (apart from the above advice on experiments) - I have never gone wrong with 3 or less malts. One base, 2 specs (or a small amount of base used as spec) to add the dimensions necessary. One base one spec does well. I do find smash beers a bit one dimensional, but don't go to the other extreme of putting 20 varieties of malts in a beer - it just ends up a muddled mess. 2 or 3 is great. My ratios are generally 90/10 split on base to spec (for 3 varieties) and 95/5 split on 2 varieties.

Hops. Again, I keep it simple with additions. If the AABC style guidelines say "focus on early bittering addition, rather than aggressive late hopping", then it's a 60 minute addition with maybe a small 30 minute. If it's an APA, then a 30 minute bittering addition (15IBU) and a 10 minute addition (15-25IBU). AIPA, the 30 minutes becomes 60 minutes. I have pretty much got the ratios and numbers down to a formula.

Jury is out on me whether you can have too many hops. Not enough - well that depends on style. If it's an English Standard bitter, one hop is fine, keep it in style. With an APA, I've done up to 7. Sometimes 7 is better than 4, sometimes 2 is better than 4. It all depends.

Whether it works or not is a complex art - it can work or it can be a waste of perfectly good hops. Apollo, Belma, Cascade, Citra, Amarillo, CTZ and Mosaic are in my current brew. It works and isn't muddled. It could have been though. But sometimes I'm better off with 2 or 3 (say Nelson Sauvin, Cascade and maybe a touch of Galaxy). With my APA/AIPA - I find I need at least one 'dank', 'spicy', 'pine' or such American variety to contrast the frutiness of the usual C hops, Amarillo and the newer fruit varieties.

Again, this is gleaned from use, but sticking to my pre-determined style formulas gives me some boundaries to play in, whilst ensuring I never make a bad beer.

Sorry for the crapping on, it's the best I can do turning a qualitative thing into some sort of quantitative definition.


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/4/14)

Couple more things to add

Brewers talk about "Red" beer.

Getting "Red" in your beer is easy,but, it is also very hard to get right.

A common mistake is brewers seeing "Carared" and automatically thinking that by using it, you will end up with "Red" beer. 

You can get "Red" from various combinations. Red does not allways mean "Red"... It has a somewhat broad range accross the amber-copper spectrum.

Red can be achieved by using Xtal malts or by using Roast Barley or very dark choc malts.

If using Xtal malts then you need to take into account the sweetnes that Xtals will bring to a beer. The darker the xtal malt, the more sweetnes you bring in...generally..the darker the xtal, the less you need. 

The other way is dark choc & roast barley. Again the darker the grain the less you need...but for different reasons.

Choc & Roast Barley add bitterness. A small amount, say 50gm in 22lt will give a colour with mild flavour....bump you RB upto 100gm and your getting into stout territory

Bit of an old rule is...the darker the malt, the less you need.


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## MHB (15/4/14)

I take a bottom up approach, having decided what to brew (having a plan) work out the simplest recipe that can do the job.
Say you wanted to make a Bohemian Pilsner, the simplest recipe you can find is for Budvar 1 Malt, 1 Hop, 1 Hop addition.
Brew that, decide what you want to change, decide how to get the changes you want. it might not be a case of adding more ingredients, it might be a process change or a malt choice.
My personal favourite BoPils for summer drinking is a single malt (Weyermann Floor Malted BoPils) two additions of Saaz 1 at 90 and one at 10 minutes.
Looking for a little more depth than just the base malt, rather than just adding some CaraPillis or CarraHell I settled on a process change.
The mash is a step mash starting at tap water temperature and a mini boil on the side of 500g of BoPils in a couple of litres of water, treat it like a decoction, heat it slowly and let it simmer for about 3/4 on an hour, develops a light golden honey colour and that lovely decocted flavour, with a rich malty nose.

I really believe most of the worlds great beers are simple (often deceptively so) and find its a lot easier to add something than it is to get it back out.

Get the basic shape right, your malt profile, the bitterness and aroma, then fine tune.
If there is too much in the beer, its hard to tell what you like and what you want to get rid of. The other problem with too many ingredients is a little tip I remembered from preschool - if you mix all the colours you get shit brown every time - frankly over complicated recipes do develop a sameness
Mark


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## Ducatiboy stu (17/4/14)

Something that is also important to take into account is your mash efficiency. 

The less efficient your mash is, the less sugars produces which will ten throw out your IBU:SG ratio. A 10% change in eff% can make a difference in your final beer. 

It is something you need to take into account when using someone elses recipe. If you use a brewers recipe who has a mash eff of 80% but you can only get 70% then you need to adjust your grain bill, hop additions or both.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (17/4/14)

Excellent point DBS.

Using IBU and OG as the basis to adjust for efficiency so that you hit the targets of the original recipe is a good method. 

Brewmate makes that easy, punch in the ingredients, _*your *_efficiency (not the recipe makers). Lock ingredients and adjust down the volume until the numbers (OG and IBU) line up. Unlock the ingredients and push the batch size back to what you want, and it adjusts the grain accordingly.


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## Yob (17/4/14)

Mosher on Beersmith on Designing Beers

LINKY


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## Bribie G (17/4/14)

MHBs comments about malts are spot on. Many of the great beers that we rave on about are often only single or single plus one spec malt brews. Examples are Timothy Taylor Landlord, the Fullers family, XXXX B) They almost always get their malts kilned to their exact specs so they only need one. For example TTL that's apparently all Maris Otter but kilned to exact colour for them. So as home brewers we have to adjust our common trade base malts that we buy with the addition of chocolate malt, crystal whatever. Thus we can only hope to closely approximate a commercial beer but not replicate the recipe.

Also, whilst on malts, for "red" I've found the reddest to be Caraaroma


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## Edak (17/4/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Something that is also important to take into account is your mash efficiency.
> 
> The less efficient your mash is, the less sugars produces which will ten throw out your IBU:SG ratio. A 10% change in eff% can make a difference in your final beer.
> 
> It is something you need to take into account when using someone elses recipe. If you use a brewers recipe who has a mash eff of 80% but you can only get 70% then you need to adjust your grain bill, hop additions or both.


And while you are looking at efficiencies, make sure you are referring to the same efficiency. There is a mash efficiency which tends to be higher and then a total (or overall or brewhouse) efficiency which takes into account the losses post mash (boil, losses due to dead space and the shit in the bottom of the kettle after boil). This is confusing to some so ensure you understand the differences.


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## Ducatiboy stu (17/4/14)

Good point Edak.

Was going to get to that

But basically mash efficiancy is what you get from your mashed grains in a given amount of water. 

Now sparging, regardless of it is fly or batch should give you an amount of liqour in your kettle before you start the boil.

You need to know what your SG is into the kettle. The SG from your mash tun into the kettle will allways be lower. The reason is because as you boil you are loosing water but keeping sugars. So as you boil you SG gets higher.

You need to know what your evaporation losses are at the end of the boil, along with shrinkage rate to give you a post kettle amount. 

You basically need to base your IBU:SG rates on the SG you put into your fermenter. 

This is why you need to know how your rig works and why it is important to know exactly where your loses in your system

You will only get this from brewing lots of beers and taking note of EVERY STEP.

Punching a recipe into beersmith/promash/beermate will not give you what you want untill you have done a few brews and worked out how YOUR rig works


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## Edak (18/4/14)

Here's an interesting question, do you measure your mash efficiency and pre boil volume after mashout or just as it comes to a boil? Take into account the volume changes of 25 or so degrees.


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## danestead (18/4/14)

Edak said:


> Here's an interesting question, do you measure your mash efficiency and pre boil volume after mashout or just as it comes to a boil? Take into account the volume changes of 25 or so degrees.


You calculate your preboil sg once you have your total boiling liquid in. Ie, after you have done a sparge etc. Temperature doesn't matter because you should b correcting you sg measurement for temp anyway.

I measure my mash efficiency after the boil because i find the preboil gravities not all that accurate. I always seem to lose a couple of points of gravity between my calculated preboil sg and my sg after boiling.


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## freek (27/4/14)

With regards to mashing I am having difficulty finding specific information on when a malt (or unmalted wheat etc) requires the lower temperature rests ( 40 deg β-Glucanase and 50 deg Protease) and when you can get away with the single infusion.

There is plenty of general information that explains what the rests are for and why you don't need it when using "most" malts, but how do I identify what is a "most" malt? I have found product datasheets to be either hard to find or non descriptive in relation to this. 

Attached is an example just for arguments sake. Other than trawling forums and comparing peoples opinions or copying other recipes, how do I tell if a malt like this benefits from the lower temperature rest? 

View attachment Weyermann® Bohemian Pilsner Malt_Specification_2013.pdf


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/3/15)

So....Who can make a recipe without software.....


Next thing for this topic is Yeast. 


If it wasnt for yeast, we would not have beer


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## Yob (18/3/15)

I rarely use software these day.


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## Ducatiboy stu (10/5/15)

About time to add a bit more

*Yeast*


Yeast is a key in producing great beer

Your yeast selection will play a major factor in your beer

Different yeasts like different temps and different styles

Yeast is very robust. Dont ever forget that

Yeast can work up to temps of 50*c and down as low as just above 0*c

Brewing actually slows down how quickly yeast works and we control, using temperature, what the flavours that the yeast can produce

Different yeast also tolerate different levels of %Alc. More yeast wont make a high gravity beer attenuate any better, in fact it can hurt your beer

Many brewers think that if they are making a high gravity beer they need more yeast

When you are looking at doing a particular style, look at the yeast you want to use.

Make sure you have your fermentation conditions reflect what your yeast strain needs, not the other way around

You will find that different yeast are also suited to certain styles. There is a reason. Its because yeast will mutate to suite its conditions.

Some yeasts will bring out different flavours of grains and hops

Yeast will also strip hop flavours, so you need to think of that and work with it

Yeast is easy to work with if you understand it. 

It is very easy to store yeast, as long long as you give it the right conditions

Yeast, like any life from needs food, so storing your yeast in the fridge in a malt solution is one of the better metods

Even if you keep yeast in the fridge, it still works, its just very slow, so it needs nutrients. It will still keep fermenting

And you can freeze yeast. 

I suggest you read Yobs threads on yeast freezing, 

He has done a lot of work in this area. Well worth reading


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## manticle (10/5/15)

If you making a high gravity beer, you do need more yeast. Yes it needs to be able to handle the alcohol as well but pitching enough of the right, healthy fresh yeast and looking after it is integral to producing a high abv beer that doesn't taste like metho.

High cell count will only hurt beer if it is way, way too much, an unusual occurrence in most homebrew situations.

Look after your yeast, make sure it's healthy, fresh, sufficient for the job and appropriate for the job.


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## Ducatiboy stu (10/5/15)

manticle said:


> If you making a high gravity beer, you do need more yeast. Yes it needs to be able to handle the alcohol as well but pitching enough of the right, healthy fresh yeast and looking after it is integral to producing a high abv beer that doesn't taste like metho.


Good to see you digress B)


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## manticle (10/5/15)

Disagree or digress? Not sure what you mean. I agree with most points you make but disagree with one. The disagreement is based partly on reading but mostly my own experience with yeast strain, handling, etc in high gravity beer. You can't add one fifth of what you need to a 1090 beer and expect it to be ok, high abv tolerance notwithstanding.


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## Ducatiboy stu (10/5/15)

So you Digress, but there is nothing wrong with disagreement B)


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/5/15)

But I mentioned yeast....and that in itself will bring the internet to its knees


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## manticle (11/5/15)

Internet is broken.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/5/15)

But your a moderator, so you can fix it


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## manticle (11/5/15)

Only Christopher Pyne can fix it now.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/5/15)

Is he a moderator now...?


God help the world....

He will cut AHB funding to those that want to help those "Designing a Recipe" threads.....


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## Fat Bastard (28/8/15)

Just to get this shits back on topic, i'd like to discuss recipe development and the philosphy and attitudes behind it.
As a big, fat bastard, I've alway liked to cook. In fact some of my earliest memories are of me (under mum's supervison) cutting sick with the root vegetables and spice cabinet to make soups and vege stews t the ripe old age of 3.I quite often develop my own food recipes now based on what's in the garden, what's in season in the supermarket, or what I can dumpster-dive, trade for or is on spesh in the supermarket.

I've only been AG brewing for 4 years now. I've probably got under 100 brews under my belt, and I reckon most of them have been the same 6-12 base recipes with minor changes. I think the only recipe I've not come up with myself is Ross' Nelson Sauvin Summer Ale. Which is a cracker of a beer.Most would be based on something Ive found on the 'net though

Seems to me there is two sorts of brewers, those who rarely brew the same beer twice, or those like me, who brew the same thing over and over again until they're happy with it, then abandon it for the next one.

Please discuss, I'd quite like to hear your thoughts on the subject...


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## danestead (28/8/15)

Fat Bastard said:


> Just to get this shits back on topic, i'd like to discuss recipe development and the philosphy and attitudes behind it.
> As a big, fat bastard, I've alway liked to cook. In fact some of my earliest memories are of me (under mum's supervison) cutting sick with the root vegetables and spice cabinet to make soups and vege stews t the ripe old age of 3.I quite often develop my own food recipes now based on what's in the garden, what's in season in the supermarket, or what I can dumpster-dive, trade for or is on spesh in the supermarket.
> 
> I've only been AG brewing for 4 years now. I've probably got under 100 brews under my belt, and I reckon most of them have been the same 6-12 base recipes with minor changes. I think the only recipe I've not come up with myself is Ross' Nelson Sauvin Summer Ale. Which is a cracker of a beer.Most would be based on something Ive found on the 'net though
> ...


I first brewed kits when I was 18 and had zero knowledge and they all tasted absolutely crap. My old records show me going from fermenter to bottle in 4 days without temp control. Thats probably a pretty common occurance however now, 13 years on the internet is a much better resource.

I took a break and then when a mate Mike got into all grain brewing when we were about 24 I was immediately hooked, built myself a keg fridge and used to hang with him on brew days, helping stir the mash, with minimal knowledge of what he was doing.

I then moved away to Sydney for 2.5 yrs but when I moved back to Perth I set myself up with an all grain setup and have been at it hard core for 3 years now.

My brewing knowledge is 1000 times what it was 3 years ago and probably 100 times what it was 2 years ago. My knowledge of beer styles in general is 100 times what it was a few years as well.

For the first year of my all grain brewing I brewed award winning and well known recipes for the AHB database like Dr Smurtos Golden Ale and the LCBA clone, thanks guys, top recipes. I still brew them today for bucks parties etc as they are always a hit.

For the last 2 years Ive been designing my own recipes and tweaking them every time until they are at where I want them. When they are at that stage I will usualyy brew them as is but often brew depending on what grains/hops I have in stock. So I guess you could say they are rarely identical, however the balance and general flavours are similar.

Ive just got back from my first European trip and because of that Ive opened my mind to different styles I never liked before. I was the one eyed American Pale Ale kind of guy but now that Ive opened my mind to different flavours, Im actually really enjoying more styles.

Im soon to brew a RIS and a Belgian Tripel and because I see these as quite tricky styles, Ive done some research and borrowed an award winning recipe (cheers Jeff) to brew the first ones. From there I will likely take the recipe in the direction I want.

So thats where Im at at the moment. I dont really get a kick from brewing other peoples recipes anymore, Id much rather work on something myself and call it my own.

Well that was a much longer post than I expected!

Cheers, prost, salute!


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