# Vienna Lager - advice/help required



## Fleabag (9/10/18)

Hey all - hoping for a bit of advice. Heading out of town this weekend for 2 weeks, and the Vienna lager that I hoped to have at lagering temps by then still has a way to go before it’s done. (Og 1.055 1 week ago when I pitched, saw initial activity on weekend when I bumped it up to 15°, now at about 1.02ish).

It’s my 1st lager and I was hoping to push to 18° for a diacetyl rest, then gradually drop down to about 3° by Saturday when we go. I don’t think there’s time for that now, so wondering what I should do. Was curious if I just drop it now to 7° or so for while we’re away then bump back to 18 when we get back, if that would be bad. No idea really what to do here.

(Using m84 yeast)


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## EmptyB (9/10/18)

You could invest in an Inkbird ITC-310T and program it to perform the d-rest and gradual reduction to cold crash temps while you're away?


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## Fleabag (9/10/18)

EmptyB said:


> You could invest in an Inkbird ITC-310T and program it to perform the d-rest and gradual reduction to cold crash temps while you're away?



In theory, yeah. But absolutely flat out between now and then so no chance to do it. 

What I might be able to do is hang the probe in the fridge away from the fermentasaurus so it operates on air temp. The maybe the fridge cools a bit, the liquid would warm the air a bit, fridge cools a bit more. Etc. Should be fairly gradual that way. (It’s not a big fridge so not much air space around the saurus)

Hmmmm.


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## raturay (9/10/18)

Fleabag said:


> In theory, yeah. But absolutely flat out between now and then so no chance to do it.
> 
> What I might be able to do is hang the probe in the fridge away from the fermentasaurus so it operates on air temp. The maybe the fridge cools a bit, the liquid would warm the air a bit, fridge cools a bit more. Etc. Should be fairly gradual that way. (It’s not a big fridge so not much air space around the saurus)
> 
> Hmmmm.


Mate I had the exact same issue with my first ever lager about 12 months or so ago. My LHB advised me simply to leave it as it was, i.e. at the fermentation temp, let the yeast do all it's work, and all would be good when I got home. It ended up on the yeast for a touch over four weeks. At the time of leaving it it had a very distinct diacetyl smell to it. Back home and the diacetyl aroma had gone completely so I cold crashed it and kegged it. Turned out a great beer.

I would have no hesitation doing it again. Matter of fact I kegged an IPA this morning that has been in the FV for 20 days as we have been away for a couple of weeks. It would have finished about a week or more ago. Tested great in terms of FG, smell and flavour. I've been leaning towards leaving batches on the yeast for longer than "normal" with no ill effects so far. In fact I think they are the better for it.

Good luck.


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## Fleabag (9/10/18)

Woo! That’s what I wanna hear - thanks!


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## Danscraftbeer (9/10/18)

I too would consider just leaving it at ~12c. I guess no harm leaving it at 15c either I'd think. It should be well cleaned up by the time you get back.


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## Fleabag (9/10/18)

Danscraftbeer said:


> I too would consider just leaving it at ~12c. I guess no harm leaving it at 15c either I'd think. It should be well cleaned up by the time you get back.



I was thinking about that temp range. In fact might even do that sooner rather than later.


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## raturay (9/10/18)

Fleabag said:


> I was thinking about that temp range. In fact might even do that sooner rather than later.


Yeah, I probably should have said. My fermentation temp was 12c so I just left it there right through to the cold crash.


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## Paulos (9/10/18)

The extended time at 15 wont be bad for it, but if you're in a hurry to drink it you could d rest, then take it down to cold crash temps in 2 hits, friday night and saturday before you leave (which is what id do).


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## Fleabag (9/10/18)

Paulos said:


> The extended time at 15 wont be bad for it, but if you're in a hurry to drink it you could d rest, then take it down to cold crash temps in 2 hits, friday night and saturday before you leave (which is what id do).



I’ll keep an eye on the gravity. If I get close to FG tomorrow night I’ll try that. Still a ways off yet I think. (About 1.022)


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## Paulos (9/10/18)

Fleabag said:


> I’ll keep an eye on the gravity. If I get close to FG tomorrow night I’ll try that. Still a ways off yet I think. (About 1.022)



Ahh, i assumed you meant .012 whichd be near fg. Best to leave it at your fermentation temp until you're back.


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## keine_ahnung (10/10/18)

Hi Fleabag,

as a professional (and German-qualified) brewer in Bavaria, my advice is leave to it at 6-7deg. This is what we (and most lager breweries in Bavaria/Austria) do in this situation. Assuming you had enough oxygen to start with, and other prerequisites for the yeast (e.g. Zinc!), it'll keep fermenting slowly.
And if not, increased temperature at the end of the fermentation is not your ideal solution. 
Sure, one can argue that that accelerates the breakdown of ferm. biproducts (incl. diacetyl), but in general, Lagers are never brewed above 10-12deg. (Most breweries here ferment lagers from 6-9deg). Above those temperatures, the yeast starts producing lots of flavours, aromas and higher alcohols - which aren't all reversable....

If you have another clean fermenter available, transfer your Vienna Lager into that and leave the worst yeast in the bottom of your first fermenter (inactive/old yeasts cells => get out of the beer as soon as possible!)

Then LAGER it, good and long!! i.e. 6-8 weeks (absolute minimum 4 weeks).
The biggest trick to making good lagers is lower ferm-temps and long lager-times 

Cheers,
Joe


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## Fleabag (10/10/18)

keine_ahnung said:


> Hi Fleabag,
> 
> as a professional (and German-qualified) brewer in Bavaria, my advice is leave to it at 6-7deg. This is what we (and most lager breweries in Bavaria/Austria) do in this situation. Assuming you had enough oxygen to start with, and other prerequisites for the yeast (e.g. Zinc!), it'll keep fermenting slowly.
> And if not, increased temperature at the end of the fermentation is not your ideal solution.
> ...



Fantastic feedback - thanks! I’ve set it to 9.5° (currently 12°), and I’ll dump the yeast in the morning (using a Fermentasaurus) and set it to 7°. The yeast I use (Mangrove Jacks M84) says 10-15°. Should it still work below that range?

Going off that timeline, this should be ready just in time for Xmas.

Attached a pic of my brew fridge notes for the full process. In case I went wrong anywhere else.


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## -OG- (14/10/18)

Fleabag said:


> Fantastic feedback - thanks! I’ve set it to 9.5° (currently 12°), and I’ll dump the yeast in the morning (using a Fermentasaurus) and set it to 7°. The yeast I use (Mangrove Jacks M84) says 10-15°. Should it still work below that range?
> 
> Going off that timeline, this should be ready just in time for Xmas.
> 
> ...



Hi Fleabag,
how did your fermentation schedule work out for you?


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## Fleabag (15/10/18)

-OG- said:


> Hi Fleabag,
> how did your fermentation schedule work out for you?



Currently touring New Zealand for 2 weeks in a campervan. Will find out when I get back!

I dumped what yeast I could before I left, and left it at 7°. We shall see what happens.


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## keine_ahnung (15/10/18)

Fleabag said:


> Fantastic feedback - thanks! I’ve set it to 9.5° (currently 12°), and I’ll dump the yeast in the morning (using a Fermentasaurus) and set it to 7°. The yeast I use (Mangrove Jacks M84) says 10-15°. Should it still work below that range?
> 
> Going off that timeline, this should be ready just in time for Xmas.
> 
> ...



Servus!
Not a problem 

Awesome note-taking on your fridge by the way 

Yeah, the yeast isn't thaaaat sensitive to temperature. Feel free to think of yeast a little bit like another living organism, similar to us. We have a temperature where we are quite comfortable and happy to work. Start reducing the temperature, and we start slowing down. ...until it gets to a point where the body (i.e. yeast cell in this case) starts to go into standby mode and starts shutting down metabolism processes.
On the other side, the warmer it is, the "stinkier" we get....espeically with strenuous work. 
Picturing yeast like this is a helpful way to understand what happens in the fermentation. 
-> at the end of the day, yeast is just trying to do what we do: metabolise energie sources and reproduce.

*In short it'll keep working below that 10-15°C from Mangrove.* (Provided it had the required nutrients to start with - e.g. FAN, Zinc etc)
As said, that's waaaaay too warm for a Vienna Lager (or any lager). To be honest, every brewer in Germany would cringe at the thought of fermenting a lager that warm. We once had a thermostat fail on us in the brewery on the second day of fermentation with a Helles. Didn't notice it until the next morning, and by then it was almost at 16°C. We did everthing we could to reduce the horrible byproducts (Diacetyl, Acetyldehyd, etc) with temperature, time, aufkräusen and long lagertime, but we were so ashamed of it, that we couldn't sell it as it was.
If a brewery in Bavaria tried to brew at Mangrove's recommended temperatures, they'd end up with a lager that stinks like old football socks so much, that they'd practically commit commercial suicide.

As said before, the absolute most important thing for lagers is low temps and long lagertimes.

Let me know how yours keeps going.
It should definitely be ready by Christmas! 

If you happen to have time, try repeating the exact same process, but ferment it at 8-9°C, then rack it when you're 10-15% before FG.
If you want to keep perfecting your Vienna Lager, I've got a few tips for your mash-schedule too. But for now, the fermentation is a bit more important


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## keine_ahnung (15/10/18)

P.s. just noticed your hop additions. Do you have an aroma hop-addition at the end of your boil? Or just the Tettnanger at the start?
btw, tettnanger is a nice choice for this kind of beer


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## Fleabag (15/10/18)

keine_ahnung said:


> P.s. just noticed your hop additions. Do you have an aroma hop-addition at the end of your boil? Or just the Tettnanger at the start?
> btw, tettnanger is a nice choice for this kind of beer



All good advice - again much appreciated. If I didn’t have this trip to NZ planned I would have sat and waited with the lower temps but time as usual forced my hand. 

And a bit of a note taking fail there. I also added 20g with 15min left of the boil.


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## EalingDrop (15/10/18)

Fleabag said:


> Currently touring New Zealand for 2 weeks in a campervan. Will find out when I get back!
> 
> I dumped what yeast I could before I left, and left it at 7°. We shall see what happens.


Could've given the house keys to a mate and pop over to press the switch a few times!


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## ABG (15/10/18)

keine_ahnung said:


> Servus!
> Not a problem
> 
> Awesome note-taking on your fridge by the way
> ...



Great advice Joe. Thanks for sharing. I've always fermented my lagers at 10 degrees and while they've been good, they've never been great. I'll drop the temps a bit next time I brew one and see what improvements that brings.

Do you pitch the yeast at these really low temperatures, or do you pitch at say 10 degrees, then bring the temperature down 12 hours later? Roughly how long does it generally take for fermentation to complete, given that it will take longer at lower temperatures? Also, what is the ideal lagering temperature? I imagine it would be challenging for most Australian home brewers to lager at the temperatures you do given our warmer climate. And would you mind sharing your mash schedule tips with the rest of us? 

Sorry for hitting you with so many questions.

Cheers,
Andrew


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## keine_ahnung (21/10/18)

Hey ABG,

my pleasure. The passion for beer and knowledge about beer is something is as worth sharing as good beer itself! 

Yeah, without breaching on intellectual property from the brewery where I was for years, I can gladly give tips. But in general, most breweries here have very similar mash, fermentation and lager schedules....for a reason. The deeper I get into German/Bavarian brewing culture, and german culture, the more I'm amazed at how deeply they've cultivated, researched, pursued and perfected the art of brewing, to level of "scientific-ness" that only the Germans could imagine. Haha 

But enough rambling, I'll leave to my website which is currently in building 

Regarding your pitching/fermentation temp question, the traditional bavarian lager fermentation schedules (as is taught in accredited brewing academies and unis in Germany):
"Cold schedule" (aka Classic schedule)
Pitch temp: 4-5*C
Max temp: 8-9*C (by day 4-6)
then reducing down to 4-5*C around day 7-8 for end of fermentation.
Then drop to 3*C. Harvest the yeast the next day in the morning
Then rack, lager at 0-1*C for as long as you can  (I think the "oldest" beer I had the joy of filtering was a Dunkles that had been lagering for 12 weeks....oh man....it was like heaven)

"Warm schedule"(aka Modern schedule)
Pitch temp: 7-8*C
Max temp: 10-11*C
the last few days of ferm. cool down to around 7*C
The rest same

In terms of ferm times, 7-9 days is normal.
Commercial reason, sometimes breweries will fermented a tad warmer to keep up with demand....but it's always a slight compromise on beer quality.


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## keine_ahnung (21/10/18)

Regarding mash tips:
My first thoughts on looking at the "Fridge program" above....
Being a Vienna lager, it's pretty important to get a bit of body and slight residual sweetness from the malt in there. Thus, it'd be worth putting in a rest to target the alpha-amylase (72*C).
Mashing-in at 67*C COULD also be problematic. I'm not exactly sure to be honest, as I don't have the personal experience with such a schedule (at least not since my homebrew days 7 or so years ago, and there were so many factors there that it's hard to pinpoint), but the following thoughts come to mind based on the things I've learned thus far:
1. this is right between the optimum temps of the alpha and beta amylasen. Admittedly, the logical reason that lots of infusion schedule use this "combirest". *However*, to paraphrase our professor in the subject, enzymes are a bit like us: they like to get warmed up before getting being thrown into vigorous work. The bath analogie is also helpful: would you rather get straight into a 50*C bath, or get in at 37*C and slowly have it warm up?
So, it kinda makes me question how healthy the beta-amylasen are getting thown into this. 
2. Skipping from here to 76 pretty much skips the happy temp of the alpha-amylase.
3. Depending on your malt, your previous experiences with head retention and fermentation, it may be worth doing a protien-rest down between 50-60*C

Depending on where your FG is,you could also think about letting the mash cool during the mash from 67 down to 62, then heating up to 72.

Also, mash-out: 78*C. Try and get that as exact as possible, without going over.


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## ABG (22/10/18)

keine_ahnung said:


> Hey ABG,
> 
> my pleasure. The passion for beer and knowledge about beer is something is as worth sharing as good beer itself!
> 
> ...



Thanks @keine_ahnung,

I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and passion for brewing. I'll give the classic schedule a try next winter - it's too hard and energy consuming for me to lager beers at 1*C during the warmer months here.

P.S. Keen to hear more about your website as that progresses too.


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## -OG- (23/10/18)

@ABG 
So many people in Australia have a freezer in their shed or garage, so I don't see much trouble running one at 1 c.


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## Fleabag (29/10/18)

UPDATE: 

After leaving it at 7° @ 1.020ish sg and going on an epic campervan trip around the South Island of New Zealand for 2 weeks, I’ve just come back and checked the gravity reading, and it looks to be 1.020ish still. (an admittedly slightly carbed sample)

In my limited knowledge that seems like nothing has happened/yeast has gone to sleep. 

Do I bump it back up to 10° and rouse it, or was 1.055->1.02 about all I could expect from this yeast?


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## EalingDrop (29/10/18)

Presume you knock the Co2 out of solution completely before taking the Hydro reading?


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## Fleabag (29/10/18)

EalingDrop said:


> Presume you knock the Co2 out of solution completely before taking the Hydro reading?



Yeah, I try. Gave it a good shake a few times. Will let it rest then try again this evening too - but carb shouldn’t account for too much should it in a small hydro sample? I also tried with my refracto and it’s all roughly the same.


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## Fleabag (2/11/18)

After a few days at 11° it still is stuck on 1.022. Going to 13.5° now and if there’s no movement in a day or so I’m giving up.

Edit: Ok, so it maybe has shifted from 9 to 8.5brix according to the refracto. Patience.


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## ABG (2/11/18)

@Fleabag are you taking your readings with a hydrometer, or a refractometer?


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## Fleabag (2/11/18)

ABG said:


> @Fleabag are you taking your readings with a hydrometer, or a refractometer?



Both


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## ABG (2/11/18)

Fleabag said:


> Both


Okay. I was wondering whether you were using a refractometer and not adjusting for alcohol.

I'd still keg it and drink it. It's probably going to be a tiny bit sweet, but I'll bet it will still be quite drinkable.


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## Fleabag (2/11/18)

ABG said:


> Okay. I was wondering whether you were using a refractometer and not adjusting for alcohol.
> 
> I'd still keg it and drink it. It's probably going to be a tiny bit sweet, but I'll bet it will still be quite drinkable.



Tbf, it doesn’t taste bad. Cold and carbed it’d be fairly drinkable - lots of flavour. Bit more like an ale than a lager tho at this point.


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## keine_ahnung (12/11/18)

Suggestion: next time add a tiny bit of zinc at the end of the boil. Could help with your fermentation difficulties. You don't need much, like a pinch of salt really. But it's very important for the yeast.
Your aeration could also be a bit on the low side...? (sure, at this stage of the fermentation the yeast is working anaerobically, however the oxygen levels at the start of the fermentation have a strong effect on the yeast-reproduction rate at the start of ferm.)


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## Fleabag (12/11/18)

Didn’t put it on oxygen or anything but had a vigorous shake etc to get some air into it. 

Zinc might be worth a go - Sydney water is pretty low on minerals etc.

I think it didn’t like the low temp. Or I dropped it too fast. It reportedly tastes ok as is (in carbed still) so next time might try same recipe and maybe get a liquid yeast and do a proper starter.


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## Meddo (12/11/18)

keine_ahnung said:


> Hey ABG,
> 
> my pleasure. The passion for beer and knowledge about beer is something is as worth sharing as good beer itself!
> 
> ...


Hey k_a, some more great info here, thanks. One thing I've been wondering about is how sulfur is managed if capping the ferment at 80% completion for self-carbonation? I've read that some Bavarian strains such as WLP838 produce a lot of sulfur which can take months to be reduced - if the fermentation is racked and capped after say a week then it seems to me that there would be nowhere for the sulfur to go?

Thanks again for being so forthcoming with this info.


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## keine_ahnung (14/11/18)

Hey Meddo,
by "sulfur" I'm assuming you're referring to sulfur-related fermentation biproducts...? Most prominently Sulfurdioxide (SO2)..
This is a very good question.
The lower fermentation temps play a big role here. And aeration levels, and malt properties (Sulfat level in the malt)
However as you've already said, some yeast strains pump out more than others.
A bit of a sulfuric-flavour is quite characteristic of numerous bavarian Helles-Beers (e.g. Augustiner, Tegernseer). On the other hand, there are also lots bavarian lagers where the "sulfur" levels are at such a low level that they're not noticeable.

I've found the beers a bit north of Munich tend to be more like this. Very well balanced, crisp, bit more of a hop-presence. Alot of this is also affected by the water. Munich water is absolutely horrendous! But the water 100-150km north (getting towards the same catchment area as Pilsn) is significantly softer. This is bound to play a big role, however I honestly have to say, I still have to learn a bit more on this topic. Ask me again in 6 months while I'm studying for the exam on brewing-water. apparently it's the hardest subject in the entire masters degree. :/

One interesting fact (which I was just reading - thanks for prompting me  ), is that these sulfurs are quite volatile and thus come out solution fairly easy. For example ...... CO2 bubbles rising up through the beer!

So, in short:
1. Aeration (>affects yeast cell reproduction > affects utilisation of existing sulfat in the wort)
2. Ferm temp
3. Lagering (the german "aufkräusen" technique is also bound to help drive out SO2 by bringing in fresh yeast cells and creating a secondary CO2-Wash)


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## MashMasterMike (23/11/18)

Hello all,

@keine_ahnung wondering if you could help me out here.. ?

I conveniently found this post and your advice above just as I was preparing for my first lager.  
However, I wonder if you could clarify some points for me?



keine_ahnung said:


> Regarding your pitching/fermentation temp question, the traditional bavarian lager fermentation schedules (as is taught in accredited brewing academies and unis in Germany):
> "Cold schedule" (aka Classic schedule)
> Pitch temp: 4-5*C
> Max temp: 8-9*C (by day 4-6)
> ...



Process so far for my Czech Pils:
Mashed 60m @ 66c
Mashout 78
OG spot on at 1052
45l into fermeter

3 stages of 5 litre starter ending with 2.36M cells / mL / °P (according to calculator) 
however the final stage then sat in my fridge for 2 days to settle and I poured off 80% of the liquid and pitched the slurry. 

Pitched at 5c.

I have my ferm profile below which I gleaned from the information you provided above.. however i'm now at day 8, it is fermenting well, it has a small but dense krousen of about 5cm thick, bubbles from air lock but nothing like an ale (wasnt expecting it to be), but gravity reading is currently 1040. 
SO.. should I leave it at 9c for longer, or still chill it down to 4 over the next 2 days?

At what gravity (or % of completion) should I start bringing the temp down for end of ferm? It's a bit unclear in your post above and I would love some advice.

It's not part of the schedule below, but after day 25 it will continue to be lagered at 0 until mid Jan.


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## keine_ahnung (24/11/18)

MashMasterMike said:


> Hello all,
> 
> @keine_ahnung wondering if you could help me out here.. ?
> 
> ...



Hey MashMasterMike,
^Impressive planning process and graphs you've got going there!
How's the fermentation going now? I saw your post a bit late and haven't had time to reply until now.

I would say in general your fermentation schedule seems very good.
Being a Czech Pils, it should have a higher level of Diacetyl, giving quite a buttery full flavour.
Your above schedule will give you a much crisper clean bavarian style lager. Which is not at all a bad thing...but just so you know for next time. Could be really interesting to do the exact same beer next time, but ferment it 4 degrees warmer. See what difference you notice.

In terms of when to cool it: basically you want to try and time it so that you don't put the yeast to sleep before it's finished fermenting all the fermentable sugars in there, but also not have it sitting around warm for too long...encouraging autolysis.
What racking/lagering options do you have?
do you let self-carbonate?
I would recommend racking it when the fermentation is around 80-85% through. This well get it off the older tired yeast ceels that have already started to fall out of suspension, and by racking, you'll help keep the remaning fermentation going along by moving all the yeast cells around a bit.
You could happily start gradually lowering the temp after you rack it...or let it sit there at ferm.temp until you're convinced it's done, and then cool it to lager temp.

Like all things in brewing, it's a matter of choosing the comprimise that makes the most sense.

Another option would be to cool it a little bit before racking (down to say 5deg), then let it sit till it's done. Then lager.
Pros here: you'll carry over less of the unhealthy yeast cells into your lagertank -> reduce autolysis.
Cons: you'll decelerate the the fermentation a bit at the end.

* just read your post again. If you're still at 1040 after 8 days, that's pretty slow. I wouldn't start cooling it until it's must further.
Sounds like the yeast is lacking a few vitals. Oxygen? FAN? Zinc?
Would you happen to have a malt analysis that I could look at?


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## MashMasterMike (24/11/18)

Hey no problems, I extended the 9c period anyway yesterday so it's still at 9c. 

Ah ok, so pilsner should be a tad warmer than your traditional bavarian lager. I will keep a note of that for next time. I was aiming for a Pilsner Urquell clone.
New words.. autolysis, just looked that up. So does that cause off flavours when the cells break down?

From racking perspective, it's currently in a 60l plastic fermenter off which I have two. They have taps in them just above the bottom, so I just transfer from one to the other for secondary.
I do however only have a temperature probe for my BrewPi in one of them, so I actually have to transfer out, then clean out the main one, then transfer back. 

My system uses an upright freezer which is controlled using a BrewPi, so my actual beer temps in ferm chamber are highly accurate. Typical variance from set point is about +/- .06c.
I will just lager in that, in the secondary fermenter off the yeast, at 0c for about 8 weeks. 
After that, I transfer to 19l kegs and force carb. 

Ok, so i've just taken another reading at it's just under 1036 tonight. FG i'm aiming for is 1015 so a bit to go.. 1022-1020 ish would be about 80-85%.
I'll extend out the 9c phase until it's below 1020. 

It did get heaps of oxygen during cooling and transfer to the fermenter initially - maybe not enough. I didn't use a stone or anything, just lots of agitation while it was running into the fermenter . I added weyermann yeast nutrient which includes zinc to the boil at the end based on your previous comments about zinc. Never used it before... I think that sides covered. 
I don't have an analysis sheet but it's 92% wayermann bohemian pils malt and then a small bit of munich and carafoam. 

I reckon the slowness maybe yeast related. Maybe not enough. It was an older pack, but the starter calculator is supposed to take that into account. For reference it's Wyeast 2278

Cheers


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## keine_ahnung (24/11/18)

Ok cool. Sounds like you're definitely on the right track.
If I were you, I wouldn't worry about doing the double swap thing when you rack to make sure you've a temp probe in the beer. Once the fermentation is complete, the temp isn't soooo critical. Cold is cold. If you set your fridge to 0-1deg, you should be good 

Yep Autolysis is basically when the digestive enzymes in the yeast run out of food, but keep on digesting.....Then move on to other stored reserves inside the yeast cell, then eventually the cell wall. The big problem with that is, once the wall bursts, everything that was inside the cell, is no longer contained. That includes a bunch of unwanted things like undegestible bi-products from the "sugar digestion" in the yeast (imagine your internal organs being emptied out.... probably not tasty. Nothing personal though  ) and a bunch of amino-acids (reduced head retention) and fat-acids which are unwanted in beer.

Having said all that, on a homebrew scale it's probably not near as important as making sure you get the mash and fermentation temps spot on  But always good to have in mind with these kinds of beers 

1015 is a pretty high FG for a pils. We used to get around 1008-1010. But who knows, with all that lager time you're doing, it could well come down a bit.
Would be interesting to start tasting it at various stages during the lagering. See what you think.


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## keine_ahnung (25/11/18)

MashMasterMike said:


> Ah ok, so pilsner should be a tad warmer than your traditional bavarian lager.
> Cheers



I may have explained that poorly before, but "pilsner" can also be a bavarian lager. A bavarian pils and a czech pils are both pilsners (i.e. pils is just the abbreviation for pilsner), just a slightly different breed. A good comparison would be Vegemite and Marmite. To anyone who's used to one product, the other one is noticeably different. But in general, they're basically the same.

But I'd say your logic is spot on thinking that a czech pils would be fermented a bit warmer.

And...brainfart from me on the FG. I overlooked the fact that you've got a bit of Munich and Carafoam malt. In which case 1015 is probably quite reasonable


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## MashMasterMike (25/11/18)

keine_ahnung said:


> If I were you, I wouldn't worry about doing the double swap thing when you rack to make sure you've a temp probe in the beer. Once the fermentation is complete, the temp isn't soooo critical. Cold is cold. If you set your fridge to 0-1deg, you should be good



I thought about that. I can use 'fridge constant' mode but the reason for preferring to use the beer probe is that the freezer will be on less as it's only trying to keep the 40+liters of beer stable, whereas the air within the freezer changes quickly so using fridge constant mode causes the compressor to run on/off a lot more.



keine_ahnung said:


> 1015 is a pretty high FG for a pils. We used to get around 1008-1010. But who knows, with all that lager time you're doing, it could well come down a bit.
> Would be interesting to start tasting it at various stages during the lagering. See what you think.



Yeah I'm not sure what it will end up at. 1015 is just based off 72% attenuation which is in the middle of the range Wyeast suggest for this strain. I don't think the small quantity (6% all up) of munich and carafoam are having a huge impact on the terminal gravity. According to beer tools pro, even if i turn those two ingredients off making it 100% pils malt, it's only 1 point lower.. we shall see.
Good attenuation is probably the part of brewing I struggle most with.

In terms of taste tests during lagering, yeah I will most definitely do that. I tend to taste test my brews all the time starting from the first sparge runnings all the way to completion... at which point I 'taste test' the whole keg until there's none left  
You start to get a good idea of when a finished beer will be good/great even before fermentation is complete... assuming nothing unfortunate happens thereafter. 

Thanks for the advice, I'll start a new thread and provide some updates as it progresses.


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## Meddo (26/11/18)

G'day @keine_ahnung, I'm after a bit more advice too please if you don't mind. I've brewed the recipe below - my first lager - and it seems to be progressing _reasonably_ well (perhaps a bit too slow?) but I would like a bit of a confirmation / sanity check please? It's a bit scary running these lager temperatures when you're used to ale fermentations... 

So this is being done with WLP860 Munich Helles Yeast, which apparently is the Augustiner strain. These packets were about 12 months past their best before date but since this yeast is unavailable fresh at the moment I decided to give it a go anyway. So it got built up in starters on a stir plate using two packs into 800 ml @ 1.028, then into 5L @ 1.040, chilled to floc out, then the slurry pitched into another 800 mL @ 1.040 on the stir plate for a couple of hours prior to pitching to wake the yeasties up again. I diluted the room temp (~22 degree) wake-up starter with an additional 750 ml of wort at 7 degrees, then another 1 litre 10 minutes or so later in an attempt to get the yeast closer to the temperature of the wort before pitching.

The wort (42 L) was at 7 degrees prior to pitching but probably warmed up to 9-11 degrees while decanting into the fermenter. Pure O2 to the wort immediately after pitching. It would have been back to 7 degrees within a couple of hours after pitching.

Krausen and airlock activity didn't appear until sometime between 36-48 hours after pitching, when I raised the temperature to 8 degrees. At 60 hours the krausen still didn't fully cover the surface of the beer. At 3 days the gravity had dropped from 1.058 to 1.054 (bumped the temp up to 8.5 degrees), and seems to be around 1.035 to 1.040 six and a half days after pitching (bit hard to tell as I wasn't able to degas the sample properly). I left the first sample (1.054) sitting on the bench top at ambient (~23 degrees) with a foil cover as a test for FG, 3 days later it was at 1.013 and the yeast had flocced out.

So, is there anything jumping out at you there as being not quite right, timing wise? Does an FG of 1.013 seem about right from OG 1.058 for an Augustiner-strain beer? Also, when you talk about timings at other points in this thread ("after XX days" etc.), do you start your count from when it was pitched or from the first appearance of low krausen? (all my timings above are from pitching)

Thanks a lot for your contributions here k_a and any feedback you can give on the above.

*Recipe*
Style: Munich Helles
Author: Lee
Eff. (End Boil): 79.1 %
Vol. (End Boil): 47.3 l
Vol. (FV): 43.3 l
OG: 1.058
FG: 1.013
IBUs: 15
EBC: 9

_Water Profile_
Ca+2 = 77 ; Mg+2 = 0 ; Na+ = 8 ; Cl- = 81 ; SO4-2 = 80 ; Mash pH = 5.34

_Mash_
55c for 15mins, 63c for 90mins, 71c for 15mins

_Grist_
95.65% Ger Wey Pilsner (11kg)
2.17% Ger Wey CaraHell (0.25kg)
2.17% Ger Wey Carapils (0.25kg)

_Hops (Boil)_
FWH Hallertau Mittelfruh (Ger 2017 4.9% Pellet) 40g = 10.8 IBUs
20mins Hallertau Mittelfruh (Ger 2017 4.9% Pellet) 15g = 2.7 IBUs
0mins Hallertau Mittelfruh (Ger 2017 4.9% Pellet) 15g = 1.6 IBUs

_Yeast_
WLP860 Munich Helles Lager Yeast

_Fermentation Notes




_


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## Meddo (26/11/18)

Just noticed that this is in the "Vienna Lager advice" thread, sorry for the off-topic Munich Helles questions...


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## keine_ahnung (29/11/18)

Hey Meddo,
first thoughts: your recipe looks quite good in terms of the ingredients. Mash schedule also looks good. (Interesting that you do a protein rest. What's your thoughts behind that? Not a criticism at all, just interested to hear your thoughts on it).

The main thing that pops out at me is the old yeast. A year is a long time for it to be sitting around. At which temp was it stored?
If I follow your starter description correctly, it sounds like you've warmed and cooled it a few times before pitching. Not sure that's so great for the yeast. Sounds a bit like unnecessary stress for the yeast to me.

Certainly does seem to be fermenting slowly. Where's it at now?


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## keine_ahnung (29/11/18)

Meddo said:


> Just noticed that this is in the "Vienna Lager advice" thread, sorry for the off-topic Munich Helles questions...


All good. It's not so off-topic. In terms of brewing process they're practically identical...


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## Meddo (29/11/18)

keine_ahnung said:


> Hey Meddo,
> first thoughts: your recipe looks quite good in terms of the ingredients. Mash schedule also looks good. (Interesting that you do a protein rest. What's your thoughts behind that? Not a criticism at all, just interested to hear your thoughts on it).
> 
> The main thing that pops out at me is the old yeast. A year is a long time for it to be sitting around. At which temp was it stored?
> ...


It was at 1.026 twelve hours ago, tastes pretty good to me so far apart from the rotten egg stink which I guess is to be expected.

Given it's now two-thirds attenuated I think I'll just gradually bump the temp up a bit - half a degree per day or something up to max 12 perhaps - to make sure it gets all the way down, unless you have any other suggestions?

Yeah if it's going slow (as it seems and as you've confirmed) it must be yeast health. It's a new thing for me managing starters around a cold pitch temperature, especially in a Brisbane summer. With hindsight I should perhaps have used a fresh batch of WLP838 instead for my first lager but I'm really keen to give this WLP860 a go and figured I may as well do it now before it gets even older. It's been stored in the fridge its whole life so it's probably as good as it can be for its age but certainly suboptimal.

Re the protein rest, that was due to a misreading of the relevant texts - I read "will aid head formation" but missed the next bit which said "but may have the opposite effect on well-modified malts". Will see how it turns out on this batch but am expecting to skip it for the next one. Do you have any experience with that particular malt (Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner) as to whether it's likely to benefit from a 50 or 55 degree protein rest?


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## keine_ahnung (18/12/18)

Hey Meddo,
how's your Helles coming along?

Just realised I forgot to reply back then..

In terms of the Pilsner malt from Weyermann, it's hard to say without a Malt-Analysis. Malt is different every year, and even varies a bit batch to batch. Depending on how intense, short, hot, etc the summer was, whether it rained around harvest time, etc etc, the content and make-up of the protein is strongly influences, which largely affects the malting process. Thus it's impossible to always make exactly the same malt.

See what your head-retention is like with this batch and then see from there on what you want to do next time


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## Fleabag (15/5/20)

Finally got round to attempting this again. Mostly unchanged recipe.

Looks like the fermentation is slowing down way before what I hoped was FG - is this normal for this yeast? (M76 Mangrove Jacks Bavarian Lager)

Do I just need more patience?


Brewfather


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