# Pouring competition beers



## Brew Matt (10/4/13)

I haven't attended any BJCP beer judging competitions. Just wondering, when the beers are poured, are the glasses tilted at an angle? Also, what other measures are put in place to ensure that each pour is equal?

Any recommendations on what cleaner is used for glasses to ensure they are as clean as possible, so each beer is given equal chance when it comes to head retention.


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## pommiebloke (10/4/13)

AFAIK the glasses are cleaned in a dishwasher with no cleaning agents, ie. just using hot water.


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## manticle (10/4/13)

Only bjcp stipulation that I know of is this




> Pour in a manner that gives each entry its optimum appearance, keeping in mind some entries may be under- or over-carbonated.


In my experience good stewards attempt to do the above in most cases but it can be variable, particularly when beer foam is so intense it takes 10-20 minutes to settle into the jug and actually get poured.

Despite best intentions, beer may have good retention in one glass and very little in another. Appearance points are only 5 possible out of 50 though.


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## Charst (10/4/13)

Ive stewarded the AIBA for the past two years and both cases the glass has been a small red wine shaped glass. I would pour a bit over two fingers worth into the glass and aim for a half inch head which given the time it talks to pour 6 beers, walk out to the judges then serve, would still leave a decent head in the glass. 

I tend to pour two - three sample from a bottle depending on the bottle size, and keep as far away from the sediment as possible as to keep each beers clarity consistent. if for some reason you poured an inconsistent one compared to your others it is discarded and repoured.

each glass washed through a dishwasher and was only washed in hot water i think.


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## Degraves (10/4/13)

its a hobby and you should view as such, no there is not any tilt angles, never met a steward yet who cant pour a beer, the day peeps, competitors start whinging about stewards is when competitions are stuffed. Stewards are great people and some I have known are better palate wise than the judges, its just what they chose to do. I was a steward then judged and would be a steward tomorrow.


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## Florian (10/4/13)

In QLD we had disposable biodegredable clear plastic cups for the last few comps, which seemed to have worked well and were well received by all involved.

New cup for each entry, no probs with cleaning agents, differently clean glasses etc.


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## Degraves (10/4/13)

i will edit my above post saying at Vicbrew a few years ago, the glasses were hot????? dishwasher, at the time I believed they had a distinct disadvantage. No prizes were taken out on the first either on the AM card.


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## manticle (10/4/13)

Judges or stewards should have sent them back.


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## Degraves (10/4/13)

manticle said:


> Judges or stewards should have sent them back.


Spare me please.For what? The bottle has been cracked, nobody knows the kitchen. Defunct the beer? Get real Mants. You would fix everything on the spot would you? Hobby brewing is not a grand final .Home and away season exists. If we all had your hard ass attitude you would run competitions to yourself.


edit. suit yourself


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## manticle (10/4/13)

Pull your your head in. If I, as a judge or a steward got a warm glass, I'd ask for a replacement - to be fair to the entrants. Considering the effect you mentioned it's hardly a big ******* deal. I imagine the conversation would be along these lines:

'Can i have a cool glass please?'

'No worries, they are a bit warm aren't they?'

Of course it's a hobby - you think I don't know that?

Your response is unwarranted and rude. Make sure you buy me a beer if you steward or judge the next Vicbrew (or any of the comps in between - I'm likely to be at most trying to 'fix' everything to my exacting standards). We can talk about grand finals then.


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## vortex (10/4/13)

It's definitely a hobby - but still most of us take it very seriously and don't want factors out of our control to determine the final result.

Mantickler is the kind of steward I'd want stewarding my beer - from the sound of his response he treats the beers he pours with care and attention, just like it was his own.


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## Degraves (10/4/13)

Of course you would, YOUR exacting standards. The OP threw it out there. Vicbrew 2010 warm glasses as above, you would stop the whole competition, dictate how beer is served and keep everybody volunteering their time? highly unlikely.

Nobody can be rude i.e another opinion unwarranted, just we do it your way?

You are a tad opinionated and always in search of looking after ones backyard.


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## Degraves (10/4/13)

Brew Matt said:


> I haven't attended any BJCP beer judging competitions. Just wondering, when the beers are poured, are the glasses tilted at an angle? Also, what other measures are put in place to ensure that each pour is equal?
> 
> Any recommendations on what cleaner is used for glasses to ensure they are as clean as possible, so each beer is given equal chance when it comes to head retention.


Matt,
No angle, bottle gets poured to a jug, jug to the table, Steward pours equal glasses 50 75 %? Head retention is brewer, yet on most you would not be judged for presentation, this is only a very minimal factor. Its all about the taste!.


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## jyo (10/4/13)

So, degraves, would you be happy to serve yourself a beer in a warm/hot glass if you were trying to obtain the most out of the beer? I know I wouldn't.

People pay money (albeit a pittance when you take into account the amount of feedback you get) to enter competitions. I like to think my beers are treated with the same respect that I did when brewing them.

Your 'tone' makes you sound pretty arrogant to be honest.



edit-grandma


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## jaypes (10/4/13)

Anyone who serves beer in a warm glass should be shot, especially in a competition


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## Degraves (10/4/13)

jaypes said:


> Anyone who serves beer in a warm glass should be shot, especially in a competition


Vicbrew should be shot? Bigcall jay. Have any of you bigmouths ever been hands on? apart from AHB? I dont think so.
If you had so, there are volunteers then there are forum members then there is minimal hands on. Manticle is way out of line and anyone else to say shut the comp down until conditions suit oneself, maybe a reasonable request yet out of chief steward controls, Practicably no? maybe yes?
The chicken shit hearts whom posted troll above at a HUGEE guess have not participated first hand yet are simply trolling for an argument.
Nothing changes around here, even peas n corn is still as dumb as dogshit.


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## Bridges (10/4/13)

Did the stewards know the glasses were hot before they poured? If so it seems pretty poor to me that they didn't stop and request some cooler ones. 
All any one wants out of any contest is a level playing field and the opportunity to perform at their best. To suggest thats what you want isn't arrogant, rude, or at all out of line. Thats about fairness.
Also not everyone enters thinking they are going to win, but to get some honest feed back about their brew, so they can improve. It's made hard if your beer isn't presented well. I'd be disapointed to hear that had happened to an entry I'd put in.


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## jaypes (10/4/13)

Degraves said:


> Vicbrew should be shot? Bigcall jay. Have any of you bigmouths ever been hands on? apart from AHB? I dont think so.
> If you had so, there are volunteers then there are forum members then there is minimal hands on. Manticle is way out of line and anyone else to say shut the comp down until conditions suit oneself, maybe a reasonable request yet out of chief steward controls, Practicably no? maybe yes?
> The chicken shit hearts whom posted troll above at a HUGEE guess have not participated first hand yet are simply trolling for an argument.
> Nothing changes around here, even peas n corn is still as dumb as dogshit.


First and foremost the name is jaypes - j-a-y-p-e-s

It sounds more like you have your hand on it

If you were to have a competition and call it a 'fair' one, then the glasses would be chilled - no ifs no buts nothing

Have a couple of panadol and sleep it off mate, 22 posts you must be exhausted


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## manticle (10/4/13)

Degraves said:


> Of course you would, YOUR exacting standards. The OP threw it out there. Vicbrew 2010 warm glasses as above, you would stop the whole competition, dictate how beer is served and keep everybody volunteering their time? highly unlikely.
> 
> Nobody can be rude i.e another opinion unwarranted, just we do it your way?
> 
> You are a tad opinionated and always in search of looking after ones backyard.


Not stop the whole comp.

Not sure how you got that from what I wrote. Just ask if I could have a cold glass. Pretty simple.

You remind me of someone I have previously met. If your initials are DH and you live somewhere near Wolfy, we should have another beer because in person you're a good bloke. Via internet may not be the best way for us to communicate - face to face over beer is. I am opinionated - so probably are you. Happy to share those opinions face to face.

If you're not the bloke I'm thinking of we should still share a beer at the next comp you steward or judge at.

My comment about swapping glasses was simple and not intended to be dictatorial about how comps are run. It's the state comp you were talking about - a judge asking for a cool glass is not the end of the world - no need to stop the whole comp. Judges suggest to stewards that the beer might be coming out a bit cold sometimes for example. No different to that.

Anyway you've misunderstood what I meant in my first statement (by a long shot and yes I have been involved in comps even if only over the last couple of years but on multiple levels - judge, steward, organiser and participant/entrant.


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## Pickaxe (11/4/13)

I dont want to escalate this argument, but i think there is a failure to communicate going on here. This reads as a typical internet escalation.
I work in a pub serving megaswill to morons and we chill our glasses. At a comp, or anywhere serving beer, I would expect chilled glasses.
Shit, I know the issues of running a volunteer run operation. I'm an artist, I've run artist run initiatives, I've organised volunteers to run a professional gallery, i've organised events with hundreds of guests with only volunteers. Its not easy, shit fucks up, things get done on the cheap, etc. Lets not send Degraves down here, give the guy a break. Volunteer run programs are a challenge. And in saying the following i do not mean to be sarcastic.

Every art exhibition i ran, i trained my volunteers to work within their skills, but to be professionals. Art was on the wall, well framed, well hung, well catered. I founded an Art prize in the Marrickville Council Area (Sydney). Funded by council, $5000 prize, run by volunteers, high profile judges. Sold a lot of work for the artists too, founded 2007, still running this year.

If it was me, beer was being displayed, i would have chilled glasses, volunteers or not. It's like a gallery with black walls. You can still see the paintings, but it looks like shit. I mean no offense to you degraves, but this is how i feel. dont give yourself a hard time. You've had feedback, but why jump the gun? you don't know how many friends you have here. You appear to be a very aggressive/reactive person from your posts. Chill - we're all friends here. Simmer down.

Yours faithfully,
Dogshit.


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## DUANNE (11/4/13)

I for one would not like my beer served in a chilled glass. Cool for sure rather than warm but definitely not chilled.


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## Hippy (11/4/13)

Degraves said:


> Vicbrew should be shot? Bigcall jay. Have any of you bigmouths ever been hands on? apart from AHB? I dont think so.
> If you had so, there are volunteers then there are forum members then there is minimal hands on. Manticle is way out of line and anyone else to say shut the comp down until conditions suit oneself, maybe a reasonable request yet out of chief steward controls, Practicably no? maybe yes?
> The chicken shit hearts whom posted troll above at a HUGEE guess have not participated first hand yet are simply trolling for an argument.
> Nothing changes around here, even peas n corn is still as dumb as dogshit.


I think that was a **** you and goodnight, have a good life kind of statement guys.


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## manticle (11/4/13)

BEERHOG said:


> I for one would not like my beer served in a chilled glass. Cool for sure rather than warm but definitely not chilled.


Agreed. Glass should be room temp.

I wouldn't 'STOP THE COMP' - just ask if I could have a not hot glass.

Good that it got this dramatic over nothing.


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## HBHB (30/4/13)

I'll stay out of the 1 way pissing competition, but offer the following:

For the Hervey Bay/Fraser Coast and Maryborough competitions, we have a dedicated set of about 140 glasses - they get washed in very hot water the night before the competition and again as needed during the day with a commercial alkaline beer glass cleaner and rewashed in hot water and air dried at room temperature. The beers are poured to allow a decent head to form without sediment in most cases. Wheat beers are rolled in the bottle unless it's a crystal wheat. If there's anything over carved, it'll be noted and then jugged before pouring for judging. 

Which reminds me...... Fraser Coast Bayside brewers - those stewarding this year will need to muster before the comp. Any excuse for a few beers.

We throw a fair bit of money and resources at these competitions, costing us in the vicinity of $1400 every time we come together for a competition so our local brewers can take away as much valuable feedback and new knowledge as possible. We also learn a lot each time about how we can do it better. We're lucky to have a proactive group of dedicated brewers in the region who are willing to share their time, experiences and knowledge and in putting a competition together as often as we can, try to value add to that as best we can.

But damn, the after competition party is always worth the hard yards done in the weeks before. 

I would encourage any brewer, young, old, new or experienced to get involved in a local comp for the feedback.

Martin


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## Bribie G (30/4/13)

As Florian posted, the Brisbane Comp used disposable polycarb beakers and they were excellent - warm glasses can warm the beer because of their thermal mass, but in a beaker the beer stays at whatever temp it was poured in.

Edit; and there's no variation between beakers due to grease buildup as they are all "virgin" and disposed of after each beer.


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## HBHB (30/4/13)

I think there's a lot of merit in it Bribie G


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## tallie (1/5/13)

Yep, the biodegradable plastic cups used at last year's BABBs & QABC comps were generally well received. I'm pretty certain they were the 150ml ones from here: https://biopak.com.au/products.php?id=32 .

There were a couple of comments in the judges' feedback about the use of plastic over glass, but the positives were that they were all new, clean, clear, odourless, and had a handy indentation you could use for consistent fill levels. The shape of them meant you could pour the beer directly into the cup without tilting it or worrying about the foam overflowing. Unfortunately, the shape isn't as good for concentrating aromas as a bowl or tulip glass is, but as we were pouring the beers at the table, we were able to capture the initial aromas well enough.

Cheers,
tallie


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## labels (1/5/13)

The current Adelaide BJCP study group currently uses 200ml crystal clear disposable P.E.T cups

1/. one new cup for each beer
2/. one extra to invert over the other to capture aroma, lasts the flight.

The cost is small

The cups are recyclable


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## MartinOC (23/6/13)

Gentlemen (& Ladies - a lot of you seem to be wearing skirts about this issue). I was actually going to start a fresh thread on just these sort of issues, but I happened upon this one & thought it might be appropriate to respond.

My original response to this got disappeared into the ethers & I had to distill it here..

I'll preface this by telling you that I'm Chief Steward for Vicbrew & AABC (when in VIctoria), so I sorta guess that gives me just a teensie-weensie bit of credibility when I tell you to pull your ******* heads-in & listen-up....



Degraves said:


> its a hobby and you should view as such, no there is not any tilt angles, never met a steward yet who cant pour a beer, the day peeps, competitors start whinging about stewards is when competitions are stuffed. Stewards are great people and some I have known are better palate wise than the judges, its just what they chose to do. I was a steward then judged and would be a steward tomorrow.


Degraves, thank you for your observations. I appreciate them.

I was a judge up until 1995, when the AABC decreed that I could apparently do justice to 120 pale ales (INCLUDING IPS'a) in a single sitting in a single day! I was thereafter instrumental in INSISTING that each state should have it's own qualifiers before a National competition could have any credibility.

Nowadays, despite having a very good palate (I'm NOT BJCP qualified, BTW), I actually CHOOSE to be the Chief Steward.

At last year's Vicbrew, a beer came back from judging & was about to be chucked down the sink, when I ran it under my nose. A lot of the stewards around me were pulling faces at it, but I said "Oh Yeah! Baby! Gimme a glass!!!". I talked them through the structure of the beer & how it wasn't infected, but rather, an EXCELLENT example of the use of Brettanomyces. You see, I don't JUST do the Chief Steward thing - I also educate my stewards, who sometimes feel lacking in confidence to judge. 

One panel of jugdes didn't know what "Biere de table" was/meant & I had to draw on my reading of Pierre Rajotte's book some 15 years previously to explain it to them!! Geez! I even have to educate Judges!!!



manticle said:


> Judges or stewards should have sent them back.


I agree with you, 'though any steward that I trained wouldn't let it get to the table in the first place. I have STANDARDS!! 



manticle said:


> Pull your your head in. If I, as a judge or a steward got a warm glass, I'd ask for a replacement - to be fair to the entrants. Considering the effect you mentioned it's hardly a big ******* deal. I imagine the conversation would be along these lines:
> 
> 'Can i have a cool glass please?'
> 
> ...


Mantcle - Would you like to be my protege?????



vortex said:


> It's definitely a hobby - but still most of us take it very seriously and don't want factors out of our control to determine the final result.
> 
> Mantickler is the kind of steward I'd want stewarding my beer - from the sound of his response he treats the beers he pours with care and attention, just like it was his own.


Hmmm.....See above!!




jaypes said:


> Anyone who serves beer in a warm glass should be shot, especially in a competition


Are you a judge &/or a Steward? If not, then I would urge you to give it a go, so that you can walk a mile in my shoes. Once you've seen how the whole operation works, then & ONLY THEN will I listen to your opinion.



Degraves said:


> Vicbrew should be shot? Bigcall jay. Have any of you bigmouths ever been hands on? apart from AHB? I dont think so.
> If you had so, there are volunteers then there are forum members then there is minimal hands on. Manticle is way out of line and anyone else to say shut the comp down until conditions suit oneself, maybe a reasonable request yet out of chief steward controls, Practicably no? maybe yes?
> The chicken shit hearts whom posted troll above at a HUGEE guess have not participated first hand yet are simply trolling for an argument.
> Nothing changes around here, even peas n corn is still as dumb as dogshit.


I'm just leaving this one for cogitation so far.......



Bridges said:


> Did the stewards know the glasses were hot before they poured? If so it seems pretty poor to me that they didn't stop and request some cooler ones.
> All any one wants out of any contest is a level playing field and the opportunity to perform at their best. To suggest thats what you want isn't arrogant, rude, or at all out of line. Thats about fairness.
> Also not everyone enters thinking they are going to win, but to get some honest feed back about their brew, so they can improve. It's made hard if your beer isn't presented well. I'd be disapointed to hear that had happened to an entry I'd put in.


Let me explain how it happens at Vicbrew/AABC level:

I give my stewards a briefing of how things happen well in advance & Impress upon then the importance of correct serving temperature, sediment reduction (except where the entrant has specified "Mit-Heffe" for weizens) & give a demonstration of how I want them to pour the entries (ie. at eye-level, no sediment).

I stress to them the importance of serving the beers at the correct temperature (I carry a laser-jobbie to be sure), which means no warm jugs or glasses.

I also attend the judge's briefing in order to introduce myself & assure them my best efforts to ensure that they get the entries served to them at optimum. I ask them to bring any problems to my attention ASAP, so I can fix them. It's a feedback thing. 

Any further questions on serving beers at competitions?


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## bum (23/6/13)

MartinOC said:


> Any further questions on serving beers at competitions?


Yeah, I've got one.

If an experienced head steward gives numerous examples of why judges are morons, why should anyone enter a comp?


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## manticle (23/6/13)

You call two numerous?


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## bum (23/6/13)

If that's the sum of your point then I see no reason to moderate mine.


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## manticle (23/6/13)

Bof


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## Toper (23/6/13)

A well written description of what happens at Vicbrew and the AABC's Martin.As someone who's had the pleasure of judging at Vicbrew and also stewarding ,I can attest to your professionalism.p.s. I'll bring my own glass for the Parabola tasting


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## MartinOC (23/6/13)

toper01 said:


> A well written description of what happens at Vicbrew and the AABC's Martin.As someone who's had the pleasure of judging at Vicbrew and also stewarding ,I can attest to your professionalism.p.s. I'll bring my own glass for the Parabola tasting


Actually, that was a severely cut-down version of what I originally wrote & I had to re-write it with an absolute SKINFUL (someone pushed the idiot-button last night!) :icon_drunk:

Take place in the queue, pal! If you want some of my Parabola, you'll have to pry it from my cold, dead fingers. It's MINE, I tell you! MINE! MINE! MINE!

Anyway.....Does anyone have any questions?


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