# Wyeast 3638 And Flocculation



## Dazza_devil (17/2/10)

G'day Brewers,
I've had a 3638 brew in the bottles for 6 days now and I've noticed a lot of sediment settling in the bottom of the bottles. I did the usual, primary for 12 days then crashed to 1.5 degrees for around 2 days before returning to ambient, bulk priming and bottling. The brew looked very cloudy and smelled very yeasty when first bottled but it's settled out by the looks of it, leaving a relatively large amount of sediment. My current method has been leaving my beers fairly clear with very little sediment until this particular brew. Is this normal behaviour for this particular yeast? It may have taken a little longer to crash to 1.5 degrees because of higher than normal outside temps but was below 5 degrees for around a day then 1.5 for a day and a half. Could there be any other contributing factors? 

Cheers


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## Pete2501 (17/2/10)

Well the first thing that comes to mind is it's a hefeweizen yeast aka wheat beer yeast. Wheat beers aren't traditionally clear. Some German wheat beers are but they're known as kristallweizens and they're filtered. :icon_cheers:


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## Dazza_devil (17/2/10)

Pete2501 said:


> Well the first thing that comes to mind is it's a hefeweizen yeast aka wheat beer yeast. Wheat beers aren't traditionally clear. Some German wheat beers are but they're known as kristallweizens and they're filtered. :icon_cheers:




Yeah I figured it may be a bit cloudy but couldn't understand why it had decided to settle out so much after bottling. I thought perhaps it may have stayed in suspension. It looks very light and fluffy in the bottom and the slightest movement arouses it. I've tried commercial exaples of the Weizens and Krystalls, very nice. 
This one will be parting with a sample tommorrow after a day in the fridge.


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## roller997 (17/2/10)

Boagsy said:


> G'day Brewers,
> I've had a 3638 brew in the bottles for 6 days now and I've noticed a lot of sediment settling in the bottom of the bottles. I did the usual, primary for 12 days then crashed to 1.5 degrees for around 2 days before returning to ambient, bulk priming and bottling. The brew looked very cloudy and smelled very yeasty when first bottled but it's settled out by the looks of it, leaving a relatively large amount of sediment. My current method has been leaving my beers fairly clear with very little sediment until this particular brew. Is this normal behaviour for this particular yeast? It may have taken a little longer to crash to 1.5 degrees because of higher than normal outside temps but was below 5 degrees for around a day then 1.5 for a day and a half. Could there be any other contributing factors?
> 
> Cheers




I have used the Bavarian Wheat - 3638 a bit in the past in my Dunkelweizen and Hefeweizen. 
With that yeast, I didn't have particularily high levels of flocculation (unlike with the German Wheat 3333). I usually conduct my primary fermentation at 20-24 degrees for 2 weeks and I don't chill the beer down before bottling it. 
I create a yeast starter in a 1.5 liter Grolsch bottle as I pitch it into 42-46 liters of wort so I want to give the yeast a decent chance to chew its way through all the wort in a reasonable timeframe. 
For myself, I have found that 2 weeks were always more than enough at 22 degrees, however if I was fermenting at the lower end of the temperature scale, I have had to leave it in there for just over 2 weeks. 

Not sure if the fermentation was stuck or wasn't quite finished as that could have a more flocculent effect on your bottles.

What temperature did you ferment the primary for 12 days? 

Bear in mind that with a reasonable amount of wheat content >50% these sorts of beers would traditionally be cloudy unless they have been kept in storage for some time before the solids settle out.


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## roller997 (17/2/10)

Boagsy said:


> Yeah I figured it may be a bit cloudy but couldn't understand why it had decided to settle out so much after bottling. I thought perhaps it may have stayed in suspension. It looks very light and fluffy in the bottom and the slightest movement arouses it. I've tried commercial exaples of the Weizens and Krystalls, very nice.
> This one will be parting with a sample tommorrow after a day in the fridge.




Might be worthwhile to chill one of the bottles and open it to see what level of carbonation you have. While the carbonation on wheat beers is normally quite high, it would be unusual for it to already get to that stage after 6 days and that would indicate that you have quite a lot of yeast & fermentables in the beer you bottled before adding the carbonation sugar.

I suspect that in 6 days there won't be much settling at the bottom as the yeast might still be actively working on the beer and it is very little time for solids to settle out. 

Do you have a picture by any chance you could share?


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## Dazza_devil (17/2/10)

I made up a 3 litre starter for 24 litres but saved three stubs of yeast+starter wort before pitching the slurry. Fermented at 19 degrees, FG was 1013 which was pretty good for an extract with 15og dex I thought 
Fermentation went off like a brides nighty, tapered off then chugged along for a few days until coming to a rest within a week or so. I only took an FG reading just before bottling because I was pretty sure it was finished. I bulk primed to about 2.7 vols CO2.
I'll put a sample in the fridge now. Perhaps I overpitched but the beer looks clear in the bottles now.
I haven't got the camera on me atm but I'll post a pic when I can.


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## Dazza_devil (18/2/10)

Here's some pics I just took of the sediment after 1 week in the bottle.
I found it difficult to get a true representation of the sediment, any photographic techniques apprecitaed.


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## Pete2501 (18/2/10)

Boagsy said:


> Here's some pics I just took of the sediment after 1 week in the bottle.
> I found it difficult to get a true representation of the sediment, any photographic techniques apprecitaed.



Yeah I'd say that's a fair bit. Have you tried opening one and testing it?

At this point I'm going to have to tap out and subscribe to this post. I've never seen that much sediment before although I haven't bottled a wheat yeast.


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## Dazza_devil (18/2/10)

It probably looks worse than it is from that angle, here's another.

Would it be because I overpitched?

I'll be cracking one tonight but not that particular example. A tallie with twice that amount of sediment, it included some dregs from the fermenter so not a real good example but one none-the-less.


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## Pete2501 (18/2/10)

Just rereading you're OP you only CC'd for 2 days. That isn't really a long time to CC. Still that looks like a metric butt load of yeast at the bottom. I'm interested how it tastes though.


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## Dazza_devil (18/2/10)

Well the good thing is I don't think it's infected and it's drinkable. Carbonation is still reasonably low but it's there.
Very yeasty in flavour then a hint of banana and even more depth after that, slightly spicey, really quite nice. Not too bitter and not too sweet. I reck'n I'm on a winner when the yeast fades a little.
After another sip I'm starting to think, friggin delicious if the yeast wasn't just a tad overpowering. My guess is another two weeks or so and this will be something else. It should carb up a little more as well which will aid head retention and make it even better.


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## roller997 (18/2/10)

Boagsy said:


> Well the good thing is I don't think it's infected and it's drinkable. Carbonation is still reasonably low but it's there.
> Very yeasty in flavour then a hint of banana and even more depth after that, slightly spicey, really quite nice. Not too bitter and not too sweet. I reck'n I'm on a winner when the yeast fades a little.
> After another sip I'm starting to think, friggin delicious if the yeast wasn't just a tad overpowering. My guess is another two weeks or so and this will be something else. It should carb up a little more as well which will aid head retention and make it even better.



I haven't seen that much sediment in any of my brews before, however I do suspect you will find the sediment will compact a bit as time goes on. If your final gravity was reached before you added carbonation sugar, you should be fine and I suspect you might be almost completed with your carbonation process.

As I mentioned, I only make a 1.5 liter yeast starter for 46 liters (which might not be enough). 
The founder from Wyeast was speaking at a Melbourne beer judging session about 2 years ago and he made a point in saying that starters are pretty much a good idea for all beers with the exception of wheat beer. 
Not sure if the reason is the development of the different flavour nuances in wheat or if there are other reasons and now I regret not asking. I figure that I have to boost the yeast a bit since I was only pitching 1/2 rate in comparison to other folks who use a 23 liter fermenter.

From some BYO article I have read, for carbonation you need about 10% of the initial yeast concentration so if you started with 2-3 times more yeast to begin with, it might have gotten the carbonation out of the way in a much quicker fashion and there wasn't enough time to settle.

If it tastest good, enjoy the wheat beer - The way you described it, I think you have hit the flavour profile you want for a wheat beer.


Cheers

Roller


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## Dazza_devil (18/2/10)

Roller997 said:


> I haven't seen that much sediment in any of my brews before, however I do suspect you will find the sediment will compact a bit as time goes on. If your final gravity was reached before you added carbonation sugar, you should be fine and I suspect you might be almost completed with your carbonation process.
> 
> As I mentioned, I only make a 1.5 liter yeast starter for 46 liters (which might not be enough).
> The founder from Wyeast was speaking at a Melbourne beer judging session about 2 years ago and he made a point in saying that starters are pretty much a good idea for all beers with the exception of wheat beer.
> ...


Thanks Roller,
The reason I made a 3 litre starter was to save some yeast for further brews. My mistake was the method which I used to do this. I ended up with a tad under 1 cm of slurry sitting in 3 stubbies of uncarbonated starter wort and pitched the rest into the dunkelweissen wort after a bit of a feed on it initially.

The funny thing is that I have about the same amount of yeast sitting in the bottom of some my brew's bottles as there is in the stubbies I saved from my starters. 

I'm happy with the outcome regardless. The example I just consumed contained dregs so the prime of my batch should be quite good.


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## rude (19/2/10)

Google Mr malty he recons for ales 25litres you need a 4 litre starter if it is a simple one (not stired)

So for a wheat they say to underpitch I dont know by how much but Im going for a 1 litre starter on a stir plate which would be around one third less than mr malty recons, hopefully producing the right balance of phenolics


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## Screwtop (19/2/10)

The beer....Hefeweizen.....Hefe Weizen. Hefe = Yeast. Weizen = Wheat. So a Wheat Beer............. Mit Hefe (with yeast).

Dave Logsdon says no need for a starter for wheat yeast............................. IF the yeast is fresh and you are pitching to 5Gal (19L) of wort of less than 1.060 gravity. No starter = stress enough to produce isoamyl acetate and other esters.

Pitching a smack pack (enough in good condition for 19L) into 1.5L of wort, do you think it will begin budding (multiplying)?? The goal when making a starter is to increase cell count and have an active yeast starter to pitch. An active growth phase reduces the risk of contamination.

Be careful with this yeast if using a stirplate, seems to suffer badly from slight oxidation. Be sure to pitch at high krausen.

Why crash chill a beer which should have yeast in suspension, you would want to do all possible to look after less flocculant yeast cells.

Hefeweizen's are at their best fresh and highly carbonated. Why CC?

Make your Hefe, then as soon as it reaches terminal gravity keg/bottle. Carbonate to 3.3 volumes, remember this if bottling, use a priming calculator.

Drink it young and fresh.

Cheers,

Screwy


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## Dazza_devil (19/2/10)

I can see your point there Screwy. I don't think I gained much from my CC effort other than maybe clearing out any other larger suspended ingredients. The less flocculant yeast was still very much in suspension and took a couple of days more to settle. My intitial wonderment was why this yeast didn't decide to drop until a couple of days in the bottle at temps in the low to mid twenties. Perhaps the secondary fermentation from the priming sugar had an effect.
I'm guessing that if I was to culture up the sediment from a bottle of my main brew then I would be culturing the less flocculant yeast which could be an advantage for the style, no?
The yeast that is sitting in the stubbies that I saved from my starter is definitely more flocculant to that of the main brew and formed a much more compact slurry and in less time, don't know why.


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## Nick JD (19/2/10)

A lot of yeast in the bottom of a hefe means the beer will taste even better. 

Buy a bottle of schofferhofer an pour it off clear ... BORING!

Yeah yeah - I know it's a lager yeast, but it's a hefe - A German Girl's Beer. Enjoy responsibly, preferably with Helga.


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