# Kegging Vs Bottling Beer



## DarrenTheDrunk (1/6/20)

Hello Fellow Drinkers

I have a few questions and a conundrum if I may throw it out here into the WWW (Wide World of Wisdom). I have just started kegging having purchased a 2nd hand keggerator. I have not as yet had a successful brew to sample properly as I have stuffed up just about every possible stuff up that could be made. Grahame who I "met" here from NSW has been a wealth of knowledge but there is only so much of a serial pest one can be before he stops taking my calls...so...My conundrum is that the keg samples I have drank compared to the ones I have bottled just are not as good as the bottled beer that I have had resting for 2 months or more. Now my questions:
1. As the famous Cadbury ad scientist Julius Sumner Miller once said "why is it so"
2. From my tasting at various times of the beer in a bottle, it is very evident that the longer it is "rested' in the bottle...the better it tastes. Ths even includes the improvement from 1 month to 2 and 3 months
3. Why do we not leave beer in the keg for longer periods...would the taste not improve (sorry, this is a question not a statement...I have lost the question mark key on my computer)
4. Does any experienced "kegger" have a resting time that they have notice improves (or doesn't) the taste of the beer
5. Any other advise you wise drunks ... Oops.... sorry drinkers can share would be appreciated

I am on a pension so time is not an issue but dont get me wrong...I do not like cleaning bloody beer bottles but will do this happily is the quality of the end beer is much better

kind regards
Darren


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## razz (1/6/20)

What is it that you do not like about your keg beers Darren? I ask because my first thought was that it is relatively easy to get bottles cleaned and sanitised but keeping kegs the same is a more detailed exercise. Also, tell us about your "stuff ups" please? If you have made good beer and kegged and/or bottled it, then it should be just as good out of either.


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## MHB (1/6/20)

Re: -
1/ I suspect that all of us going through school had "that teacher" the one you will respect all your life.
Mine had JSM as one of his teachers, he brought a heap of the same approach to teaching, show and then tell, still how I learn best. See it work then take it apart...
2/ Yes! some styles get better and better with age, at a guess your brewing is heavily influenced by UK and/or Belgian malt accented styles, these just keep getting better for up to decades.
3/ Who says we don't age beer in kegs? There is an old saying, "beer doesn't mature faster in kegs, just better" (well it was from German and kegs is a liberty, actually "larger volumes" would have been closer). The beers most people are drinking young tend to be highly hopped or yeast driven (think Hefeweizen). These tend to lose flavour over time, often pretty quickly. Unlike malt biased beer.
4/ For something like an ESB three weeks to six months a big stout six months or more, good rule of thumb the bigger and blacker the more you get from patience. For say a Barley Wine anything under a year is infanticide.
5/ Gratuitous advice from ...Oops... a drinker, buy lots more kegs, lots and lots more!
Mark


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## YAPN (1/6/20)

Keg(something) are releasing 2lt and 5lt PET bottles sometime this year. Will cut down my cleaning/sterilizing time.


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## DarrenTheDrunk (2/6/20)

Well to say I have not got a great response is to believe that pigs actually do fly... ie ...great response. Razz, my stuff ups were simply not sterilizing properly on TWO occasions so in a fit of despair...I dumped 92 litres of beer...I have never said I was smart. My taste in beer is ever so simple...Aussie beers either VB or Carlton draught. I will look into more exotic flavors when I can at least do the basics first. Now MHB, OMG, your reply is like "poetry of the pen" or in this case...the key board. 2) as mentioned above, I buy the can and do what is says and just want a basic Aussie beer. For the rest of your wonderful reply to which I am ever so grateful, knowing what I am trying to achieve (basic Aussie beer), can you PLEASE explain this situation or even simpler...just tell me what I need to do...!!!

Now YAPM... I take your point but 5 litres...my liver is stretched enough as it is... But I still want to learn this "keging" thing.

Thanks very much again ... kind regards. darren


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## professional_drunk (2/6/20)

When kegging, I find most of the time the beer is good to drink as soon as it's carbed. It does hit a peak somewhere around 3-4 weeks. But, my brewing processes are different to yours and that may affect the numbers I just told you.
Keep practicing and improving your process. There's no one thing we can tell you that will help because brewing is about doing many small things well. I'm sure I've dumped hundreds of liters of beer from my mistakes. Take it as the cost of tuition.


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## Grmblz (3/6/20)

MHB said:


> 5/ Gratuitous advice from ...Oops... a drinker, buy lots more kegs, lots and lots more!
> Mark


In 2004 I went on a three yr overseas posting, Allied Pickfords the storage agents refused to take my gas bottle and kegs, I assured them the kegs were full of plain water and the bottle was all but empty, they accepted the kegs, some were indeed full of a sanitising solution (I used iodophor back then) I may have forgotten to mention about the three RIS's and two Barley wines. 
In 2007 I received an offer of a three yr extension which I duly accepted.
In 2010 I returned and proceeded to renovate my home, putting all my "stuff" in the garage, I had no time for HB.
2011 saw another offer for three yrs with a 12 month lead time, Ahaa get my shit sorted, needless to say 80% of the boxes packed in 2004 went back into storage unopened (just checked and I've still got 5 boxes in my garage right now from 2004 unopened lmfao) BUT! I did find my old fridge and after testing (don't drink iodophor btw) I had a serving fridge and five kegs that were nearly nine yrs old (had been under the house 12+ months before initial storage) for my farewell party.
SAD! day, two of the RIS's were undrinkable (infected/oxidised too badly? dunno) and binned, BUT! the third was mothers milk, and the barley wines were to die for, approx 20 people were written off (this is a brewing/drinking forum isn't it?) that Saturday, and various folks turned up over the course of the following week asking if there was any more of "THAT" beer left, and consequently all was consumed before I (this time) put my empty kegs into storage.
The moral of the story: you can't have too many kegs. Cheers Mark
Sorry for the indulgence folks, I read Darrens post, thought "bugger it" and am now just sat here sipping on a 1yr RIS (just a baby really) and thinking about old times. BUY MORE KEGS! 
Cheers G


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## Grmblz (3/6/20)

DarrenTheDrunk said:


> 2. From my tasting at various times of the beer in a bottle, it is very evident that the longer it is "rested' in the bottle...the better it tastes. Ths even includes the improvement from 1 month to 2 and 3 months
> 3. Why do we not leave beer in the keg for longer periods...would the taste not improve (sorry, this is a question not a statement...I have lost the question mark key on my computer)



2: As MHB says it's very dependant on style (type of beer)

3: I'll probably get crucified for this but here goes, most kegging is done for speed and is force carbonated, instead of waiting a week for secondary fermentation you can have your beer carbed in a couple of hours not a few days, but you don't force carbonate your bottled beer so you are not comparing apples with apples, as we have discussed, ^ BUY MORE KEGS! lol 
Do three identical brews (easy with what you are doing) bottle one, keg and force carb one (happy to help) and keg and naturally carbonate the last. THEN compare them after 2 to 3 months, you'll need more kegs of course


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## Luxo_Aussie (3/6/20)

Interesting discussion. I use bottles for the diversity which I can offer when meeting up with friends/family - It's awesome to have a tasting session where I've got 10 different brews to share. Also I can give bottles away for gifts or just give away to people to enjoy the beer without me. Does anyone use bottles over kegs for this reason?

Kegging would be easier by the looks of things - I spend nearly as much time cleaning bottles, sanitizing & bottling as I do brewing.


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## Grmblz (3/6/20)

Luxo_Aussie said:


> It's awesome to have a tasting session where I've got 10 different brews to share. Also I can give bottles away for gifts or just give away to people to enjoy the beer without me. Does anyone use bottles over kegs for this reason?
> 
> _I've got 15 kegs, 6 taps, and 4 pluto guns, yes it's great having people over for a session, and going through the taps._
> 
> ...


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## zoigl (3/6/20)

I gas up my kegs with 150 gms of dextrose, spunding valves help, but they need to be watched carefully.
I also use the newer red pressure relief valves which release pressure at about 2 bar. I found my kegged beers are as good as bottled beer. I have 10 kegs lagering at about 6 c
For once, I have to disagree with MHB, my heffes are fantastic after 12 months stored at lagering temps.


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## Grmblz (3/6/20)

I find 70-80g dex is about right for my ales, +1 for the spunding valve.


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## DarrenTheDrunk (3/6/20)

Grmblz said:


> 2: As MHB says it's very dependant on style (type of beer)
> 
> 3: I'll probably get crucified for this but here goes, most kegging is done for speed and is force carbonated, instead of waiting a week for secondary fermentation you can have your beer carbed in a couple of hours not a few days, but you don't force carbonate your bottled beer so you are not comparing apples with apples, as we have discussed, ^ BUY MORE KEGS! lol
> Do three identical brews (easy with what you are doing) bottle one, keg and force carb one (happy to help) and keg and naturally carbonate the last. THEN compare them after 2 to 3 months, you'll need more kegs of course




My young personal Brewing Consultant...How are you. I put the post up because it is good to get many peoples experiences. I spoke to Darren from Keg Land and did not like the carbonation using sugar and told me I need to "get into the new techniques". He was a lovely and helpful fellow. Personally, I like the principle of the way you do it but of course, I an infant compared to you when it comes to brewing. Yes not in a position to be buying too many more kegs. I have 4 at the moment...dont worry about being "crucified"...only I know where you live and my silence is quite cheap!!!


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## DarrenTheDrunk (3/6/20)

zoigl said:


> I gas up my kegs with 150 gms of dextrose, spunding valves help, but they need to be watched carefully.
> I also use the newer red pressure relief valves which release pressure at about 2 bar. I found my kegged beers are as good as bottled beer. I have 10 kegs lagering at about 6 c
> For once, I have to disagree with MHB, my heffes are fantastic after 12 months stored at lagering temps.




Hi ZOIGL. what do you mean about 6 c


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## MHB (3/6/20)

Ok, lets do this in small steps, it will help you a lot if you understand what is happening and why, not just take a monkey (sorry) see monkey do approach.

Lets just say you go and buy a couple of bottles of coke at woolies, if you open one warm (lets say 20oC) coke will go all over the place. The coke left in the bottle would be pretty flat.
If you put it in the fridge until it cools down to lets say 4oC, open it and there is a bit of a fizz from escaping CO2, pour a glass and its nice and fizzy.
This is the important bit - Same amount of coke and CO2 in each case!

Lets say you drank half the coke, put the cap back on and put it back in the fridge. Tomorrow, have another glass.
There will be a bit of a hiss, but not as much as the first time, pour a glass and it wont be as fizzy.
This to is important - Some of the CO2 that was dissolved in the coke has come out of solution in the coke and pressurised the empty space in the bottle.
This bit is really important - The way gas (including CO2) behaves is that as some comes out into the head space, some of the gas in the head space is going back into solution. when these are happening at the same rate we have what is called an Equilibrium (just means equal speed in and out...)

We can see that the temperature influences how willing the CO2 is to stay in the liquid and that temperature affects pressure. (there are even equations but maybe later ok)

Lets look at the half full bottle it has some coke and some CO2 in it. If we took an unopened bottle and measured the pressure at 20oC it would be a couple of hundred kPa (about 330 or ~3Bar if you like), chill it down to 4oC and the pressure in the bottle would fall to a new equilibrium pressure at say 155kPa (1.5Bar).
Imagine we fit a Fiztop to the bottle, hook it up to a regulator and increase the pressure back up to 330kPa.
Slowly the extra CO2 in the head space will move into the coke, when it reaches a new equilibrium for 4oC, the CO2 will stop flowing into the bottle and the coke will have the same fizz as when you first opened the bottle.

Sorry I have to head off to work for a couple of hours, let me know if you have any questions about the above.
When I get home I'll carry on and cover how it all applies to beer and brewing, just make sure what I have written makes sense.
If you are so inclined and want to read ahead, look up P1V1=P2V2
Mark


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## MHB (3/6/20)

Home Again -
From above we can tell that: -
1/ at the same pressure as your beer gets colder it will take up more gas
2/ at the same temperature as the pressure increases your beer will take up more gas
Sum it up
Colder and higher pressure more fizz.
Warmer and lower pressure less fizz.

Given that and that we can lookup the desired amount of CO2 in a beer (yes that will vary from style to style)
On the Carbonation Table from Braukaiser we can see the amount of fizz where the lines from temperature and pressure meet.
I rang Toohey's once and asked them, they told me 4.75g/L
Which raises another point how do we measure the amount of fizz in beer?
The modern metric method is in grams of CO2 / 1L of beer based on temperature in Celsius and pressure in kPa
The old fashioned American method is Volumes based on Fahrenheit and Psi.

This is my only concession to silly non-systematic ways of measuring stuff
If you put a glass of water (de-gassed water) in a closed box filled with 100% CO2 at ~20oC and left it there for a few days it would take up some CO2, until it reached an equilibrium (remember that's the same amount of CO2 going into the water as is coming out). With really good lab scales you could measure (weigh) the amount and you would find you have 0.9 Volumes of CO2 in solution, I would call it 1.8g/L of CO2 in solution. It sounds silly but the old imperial standard temperature was 60oF (15.6oC ) at that temperature it would be 1 volume.

So if you see 2.5V (Volumes) of CO2, double it and you get 5.0g/L (well its 1.98 times but 2X will do). Likewise halving g/L will give you Vol.
There are three ways to measure Pressure, the metric kilopascal's (kPa), Atmospheres or Bar (is a small difference) that's the standard air pressure at sea level, and the antiquated Pounds per square inch Psi
Roughly 1Bar = 101.3kPa = 14.7Psi
Three ways to measure Temperature, The metric Celsius, the scientific Absolute which is Degrees C +273.15 and the incomprehensible Fahrenheit.
I'm going to stick to the metric system, if for no other reason than that all the calculations we use are done in metric and then converted to Imperial and Volumes, especially if we start talking about priming with sugar(s). One other reason I like metric it makes sense! another is all my gauges have kPa and Bar (the ones with Psi got hit with a hammer).
So from here on Volume it's all in L, Temperature in oC, Pressure in kPa
If you want to convert the answers to some other units your on your own (well Google will help)

If you have a look at the equation for carbonation in the link above you can see its done in g/L, Bar and the temperature is oC +273.15 (Abs), I long ago turned it into an Excel Spreadsheet called Fizzzzzzzz which is actually easier to use than the table.

We can control the amount of Fizz in a beer by varying the Temperature and the Pressure
If we put a keg of flat beer in the fridge, get the beer cold and apply pressure over time the amount of dissolved CO2 (fizz) will go up. To have control of the process we need to know the temperature and the pressure.
Both are equally important.
You said you brought a Kegerator, I'm going to assume it has a fan in it and a little digital readout displaying the temperature. If it hasn't got a fan put one in (just a little computer fan would do) a domestic fridge can be 5oC different between the top and bottom which means that as the keg empties the beer gets colder and at the same pressure the beer will get more fizz. A fan will keep it the same right through the keg.

Given the beer you said you like I am going to suggest you start at 4.75g/L and 4oC (pretty much a pub serve for mass market lager)
If we look at the CO2 content in g/l based on Celsius and kPa






In the left hand column (temperature in oC) and follow the 4 row... we come to 4.7 which is pretty close. Follow the column up and you will come to 0.7 under "head pressure" note that that's a bit like like a tachometer on a car where 2 is 2,000, 5 is 5,000. In this case its hundreds not thousands, 0.7*100= 70kPa

If you leave the beer in the kegerator at 4oC and 70kPa for about a week, it will have 4.7g/L of dissolved CO2, should taste the way you want.

I think its a good time to take a beak (and have a beer). We can look at speeding it all up next if you like but just make sure that the head is wrapped around what we have covered so far.
Time to let me know if you are keeping up. Very good idea to put a thermometer in a glass of water and leave it in the kegerator over night and see what the temperature really is, not what the digital says, often a bit of a difference. (get a decent thermometer).
Mark


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## razz (3/6/20)

Mark, thank you for another invaluable lesson. Always enjoy your posts, even when you get a little stroppy!


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## MHB (3/6/20)

We buy malt in kg's, measure hops in g, water in L, temperature in oC so WTF would we use Psi to measure pressure
Especially when we get into stuff like calculating priming sugar, the calculation is done in g/L (even in US textbooks) then people convert it to Vol and Psi.
I often wonder how much of it is just regurgitated from US websites by people who don't understand what they are doing. Maybe I do need a beer or two, feck it a cigarette and a cup of coffee just wasn't enough, perhaps a couple of pain killers, nah I'm gona open that bottle of Lagavulin, peat and ethanol that's the answer...
Mark


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## Grmblz (4/6/20)

DarrenTheDrunk said:


> I spoke to Darren from Keg Land and did not like the carbonation using sugar and told me I need to "get into the new techniques".



Get as many opinions as possible, just be aware that if you ask 5 brewers the same question you will get 6 different answers lol.
Now, Darren @ KL and his "new techniques" I bet he has the latest i phone. 

I use the keg/bottle naturally carbonated method for two reasons.

1: technical advice dep't at Coopers assure me that naturally carbonated beer be it bottled or kegged has a longer shelf life than filtered force carbonated beer, all other things being equal, style,storage conditions etc.
I assume they know a thing or two about the subject and whilst some of my kegs might be emptied in a few weeks others can hang around for quite some time.

2: Using a spunding valve with a secondary fermentation is a pretty fool proof way to carbonate a keg, to your desired level of fizz.

Method: prime, and ferment at 20c at desired pressure using spunding valve, maybe 103.4kpa/15psi, when ferment finished transfer to fridge, and connect CO2 at same pressure, in this case 15psi (sorry Mark) as the beer cools it will absorb more CO2, as Mark so eloquently explains^^^
Imho this method is ideal for new keggers, silly old lazy buggers like me or people that just want an extended shelf life. 

I do filter and force carb on occasion, usually if I need a keg quickly or I know it's going to be gone sooner rather than later(party time) or I want to impress with crystal clear beer. I don't think either method is right or wrong, just horses for courses.

As I mentioned Darren just do three batches using both methods, and bottling, and see what your palate prefers. 
@MHB You've made my head hurt AGAIN! Love yer work though.


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## Hangover68 (4/6/20)

I quite like using PSI BTW.


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## Meddo (4/6/20)

I prefer Bar cos it's basically the metric kPa (certainly the difference in conversion is much much smaller than the error range of any of my pressure gauges) but within an easier numeric range (typically 0.8 - 2 bar vs. 80 - 200 kPa). Mentally converting back from PSI when required is dead easy anyway (again within the error range of my gauges) - just divide by 1.5 and shift the decimal place (i.e. 15 PSI / 1.5 = 10, shift the decimal place = 1.0 bar; 12 PSI / 1.5 = 8, 8 / 10 = 0.8 bar; 45 PSI / 1.5 = 30, 30 / 10 = 3 bar, and so on...)


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## MHB (5/6/20)

Hangover68 said:


> I quite like using PSI BTW.


Why?

Meddo
Cant really argue with Bar it's about as negotiable as the g in p=Rho*g*h, its just a reality.
About the only reason to prefer kPa would be from the above where: -
The pressure in kPa = Density (Rho)*g*head in meters.
Which just means all the units line up, which is really handy if some of the more advanced calculations involved in conditioning.
Your point about gauges is well made, there is a fair chance people aren't getting what they think and often by quite a large margin. Have had to calibrate a couple of gauges by running a hose up to a second story balcony and measuring the water height, then comparing the gauge to the true pressure. Doesn't make Psi any more useful or even utile unless its just being used as a number without any connection to any other part of the brewing process.
I pretty firmly believe that everything in brewing is interconnected and interdependent. Coined a saying that I've repeated often enough "everything ends up in the glass" from recipe design to how you pour a beer, the conditioning of the beer plays no small role in how the beer tastes and looks, so its beneficial to understand how it works and relates to the rest of the process.

Looks like Darren isn't coming back, hasn't been seen since his post in this thread...
Mark


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## Rohin Fretter (5/6/20)

What about bottling from kegs? Do you lose much carbonation in the process? I often bottle the last few beers in the keg when changing out with no noticable ill-effect short term. Would they maintain that over months?


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## DarrenTheDrunk (6/6/20)

Well just when I thought I was getting the hang of this kegging stuff, having naturally carbonated the beer (ie, the Grmblz) method for 10 days at about 23 c, I put the keg into the fridge and hooked up the co2, set at 30psi as the beer was flat so decided to do the force carbonated for 24 hours when it is recommended to do this for 12 to 18 hours. let out the co2 and set it back to 12 psi for another 2 hours. The head was wonderful BUT the beer was still flat in that there were no bubbles in the glass like there should have been. I bloody nearly picked up the fridge and kegs and throw them up the tip...this is just after I ordered and paid for 2 new kegs which will give me 6 in total Grrrrrrr. So I cracked a long neck and it is bloody amazing. Its the Coopers Real Ale which was bottled 21 Feb so 15 weeks sitting in the bottle. WT hell am I doing wrong


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## DarrenTheDrunk (6/6/20)

Rohin Fretter said:


> What about bottling from kegs? Do you lose much carbonation in the process? I often bottle the last few beers in the keg when changing out with no noticable ill-effect short term. Would they maintain that over months?




Really good question Robin Fretter. Look forward to a reply from the brains trust


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## razz (6/6/20)

Rohin Fretter said:


> What about bottling from kegs? Do you lose much carbonation in the process? I often bottle the last few beers in the keg when changing out with no noticable ill-effect short term. Would they maintain that over months?


These days I only bottle from the keg if I'm going out with takeaways or giving some to a mate. So, the beer generally gets drank reasonably quickly. Carbonation carries over no problems, as long as you keep everything cold do it slowly. I don't use a counter filler, I just wind back the pouring pressure on the adjustable beer disconnect and take about 30-40 seconds to fill a Coopers PET bottle. Screw the caps on nice and tight and Robert's your mothers brother. Never kept any for months Rohin, maybe I'll try one tomorrow and report back. But it would need to stay in the fridge.


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## Grmblz (7/6/20)

DarrenTheDrunk said:


> WT hell am I doing wrong



70/80g dex/sugar in keg,
Fill keg from bottom avoiding splashing.
Fit lid and apply 30psi (that's what he's using Mark)
Spray lid and poppets with foaming sanitiser looking for leaks, especially the big lid O ring. If leak detected re-seat lid.
Fit spunding valve set at 15psi, this will release some of the 30psi, re-check for gas leaks.
Leave in a warm spot (more than 18c) for 10 days, check every couple of days that the spunding valve is showing 15psi.
Put keg in serving fridge and connect gas at whatever your serving pressure is.
Chill for 3 days, serve.

So which part of this ^ didn't happen? I'm guessing 30psi and checking for leaks, or checking the spunding valve to make sure the keg is holding pressure. 
Also this is just a starting point, try setting the spunding valve at 20psi for more carbonation.
For your flat beer, set the reg at 20psi and leave it at that that for a couple of days, will get better with a bit of time, when it's to your liking reset the reg back to 12psi or whatever it is you're using.


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## DazGore (8/6/20)

@DarrenTheDrunk - When you say you bought a second hand keggerator, did the kegs you are using come with it?
It may be a good idea to swap out the posts for new ones. Or alternatively use your new kegs that you bought for your next batch, which should have no leaks etc and see where that gets you. 
@MHB advice and detailed info is really great, worth reading a few times over to familiarize yourself.
I serve from 40Ltr brite tanks, and I find that my beer generally tastes better around the 6 week mark. I have a carbonation stone, and even though I am fully carbonated after 24hrs (according to pressure gauge), I find that it takes around 2 weeks for the beer to 'soak' in the gas (Saturate) to really get the fizz I want.

Daz


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## DarrenTheDrunk (8/6/20)

Grmblz said:


> 70/80g dex/sugar in keg,
> Fill keg from bottom avoiding splashing.
> Fit lid and apply 30psi (that's what he's using Mark)
> Spray lid and poppets with foaming sanitiser looking for leaks, especially the big lid O ring. If leak detected re-seat lid.
> ...




Thank you my friend of infinite wisdom. I cant remember what I did yesterday but I think you are right that I did not check for leaks. @When you do it this way, do your get plenty of "carbonation" bubbles through the entire time while drinking... I am a lover of bubbles !!! I think Daz advice is sound. I will use the new kegs and follow your approach and see what happens. Is the beer I have now "recoverable" or is this going to be number 3,250 kegs I need to pore down the drain ( a slight exaggeration). If I was to re go through the process from start, couls I transfer this keg (x 3) in to the new ones, add more sugar and the spunding valves, put it at 18 - 22 c for 10 days. My only concern would be is there enough yeast left for the second batch of sugar. TIA


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## DarrenTheDrunk (8/6/20)

DazGore said:


> @DarrenTheDrunk - When you say you bought a second hand keggerator, did the kegs you are using come with it?
> It may be a good idea to swap out the posts for new ones. Or alternatively use your new kegs that you bought for your next batch, which should have no leaks etc and see where that gets you.
> @MHB advice and detailed info is really great, worth reading a few times over to familiarize yourself.
> I serve from 40Ltr brite tanks, and I find that my beer generally tastes better around the 6 week mark. I have a carbonation stone, and even though I am fully carbonated after 24hrs (according to pressure gauge), I find that it takes around 2 weeks for the beer to 'soak' in the gas (Saturate) to really get the fizz I want.
> ...




Thanks Daz. Do you find the beer is better at say 6 weeks compared to the 2 weeks you allow for the gas "soaking". TIA


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## DarrenTheDrunk (8/6/20)

DazGore said:


> @DarrenTheDrunk - When you say you bought a second hand keggerator, did the kegs you are using come with it?
> It may be a good idea to swap out the posts for new ones. Or alternatively use your new kegs that you bought for your next batch, which should have no leaks etc and see where that gets you.
> @MHB advice and detailed info is really great, worth reading a few times over to familiarize yourself.
> I serve from 40Ltr brite tanks, and I find that my beer generally tastes better around the 6 week mark. I have a carbonation stone, and even though I am fully carbonated after 24hrs (according to pressure gauge), I find that it takes around 2 weeks for the beer to 'soak' in the gas (Saturate) to really get the fizz I want.
> ...




Sorry Daz, I searched for @MHB and the forum said the member could not be found. When I clicked on the @MHB, posts from 2019 came up. How do I get to the info you recommended...Cheers


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## MHB (8/6/20)

Darren if you mean links like this one Braukaiser
Just point your cursor at the link (in red) a line will appear under it and right click, I would then choose "Open link in new tab" that should open the page being pointed to...

You can get lost in Braukaiser for a couple of days if you aren't careful, very good quality information but more aimed at experienced all grain brewers so at your own pace.
Mark


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## DazGore (9/6/20)

DarrenTheDrunk said:


> Thanks Daz. Do you find the beer is better at say 6 weeks compared to the 2 weeks you allow for the gas "soaking". TIA


Hi Darren, definitely. It's drinkable at 2 weeks, but the head and carbonation is not quite there, the extra week or so really makes a difference


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## DazGore (9/6/20)

DarrenTheDrunk said:


> Sorry Daz, I searched for @MHB and the forum said the member could not be found. When I clicked on the @MHB, posts from 2019 came up. How do I get to the info you recommended...Cheers


I'm talking about Mark (MHB) whom replied in this post. Check out post number 15,16 & 18 to start


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## DazGore (9/6/20)

It is really frustrating when you have a brand new kegging system and it just does not work. It takes a little bit of experimenting, time and patience, but eventually you get "your" system dialled in to "your" conditions and afterwards it's smooth sailing. Persevere with it, and you will get there, and will not.look back.
I personally am not a fan of burst carbing. I prefer to set and forget, there is no chance of it over carbing etc... it takes a little longer, but like I said, the beer needs a week or 2 to soak in the gas anyway.
I am no expert, but I think I have gone through just about any scenario that can rear it's ugly head, so feel free to message me with any questions and I will do my best to point you in the right direction, or worst case let you know what did or did not work for me.
Good luck


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## DazGore (9/6/20)

Rohin Fretter said:


> What about bottling from kegs? Do you lose much carbonation in the process? I often bottle the last few beers in the keg when changing out with no noticable ill-effect short term. Would they maintain that over months?


I find I lose maybe .2 to .3 volumes during bottling from a keg. So if I was aiming for 2.5 volumes I would try to start with a keg at 2.8


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## zoigl (9/6/20)

I had a similar? problem with brand new kegs, one keg would gas up, the remained flat. I use 150 gms of dextrose to gas up to 1.5 bar at room temperature for 2 weeks. After this the kegs are conditioned in a freezer set to 6 c
I tested all seals and gaskets, as well as spunding valves. I ferment for 2 weeks in a conical malt muncher fermenter. I believed that what was happening in my case was that most of the yeast had dropped out of suspension, hence 1 keg would gas up, the other remained flat.
I tried filling 2 kegs swapping the fill every few litres, I no longer have a problem with my kegs. Repeated brews, filled by alternating the kegs have been successful as well. It was driving me crazy trying to work out what was happening. Anyway, I no longer have a problem so I am happy.


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## DarrenTheDrunk (9/6/20)

DazGore said:


> Hi Darren, definitely. It's drinkable at 2 weeks, but the head and carbonation is not quite there, the extra week or so really makes a difference




Hi Daz...That is exactly what I need to know. At this point in my brewing "career", I am going to follow the guru Grmblz in terms of "naturally" carbonating the keg and I am going to do what you have just mentioned. Whilst "stuffing up" really pisses me off and is costly, it is all a part of the learning curve. Grmblz has been ever so helpful with phone coaching and I state it here publicly ... I thanks him so much. I have not yet received an invoice for his consulting fees so I may need to retract this point !! Thanks Daz...much appreciated


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## DarrenTheDrunk (9/6/20)

Can someone show me how I can do a PM to a member please. I would like to chat to zoigl if possible... Cheers and Beers


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## razz (9/6/20)

Hover the cursor over his name and you will get some options, "Start a conversation" try that one.


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## DarrenTheDrunk (9/6/20)

Thanks Razz... will that be a "Private Message"


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## DarrenTheDrunk (9/6/20)

Actually... it does not matter if its private. I just wanted to put up my phone number as talking to someone is soooo much more efficient and effective as I found out with Grmblz. I will put it up here and if anyone wants to call me with some advice, I will not only be grateful but I will not call you so I do not be a "pest". I called Grmblz a few times and I do not think I should even though he was ever so helpful. Would love to chat with zoigl and Daz when ever they have some free time. My number is 0418 55 666 3. Now if anyone wants to harass me over the phone particularly of a sexual nature...do not bother me UNLESS you are female and cute (even not so cute to be honest). Cheers and Beers. Darren


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## razz (9/6/20)

Not private, I think it appears at the bottom of the page for all to see.


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## DarrenTheDrunk (9/6/20)

Thanks Razz. There was a final question (for tonight) that I am certain will have varying opinions but I am a lover of knowledge and can't help myself; so I will pose the question but must make a clear distinction...I am a "lazy brewer" (and way too new) in that I do not use grains at this stage and just use the tins from the home brew shop. further, I do not brew anything fancy...I just want a bloody good common beer:
1. how long at say 25c do you allow for a brew to ferment
2. following on from Q1 above; lets say the bubbles stop on day 4 and I see no more bubbles (in the air lock) after that
3. When do I bottle/keg the beer after this.
4. Does leaving the beer in the high priced turbo charged $50 Coopers fermenter for a longer period of time a) improve the beer and b) clarify the beer better.

I look forward to the infinite wisdom of fellows from a wiser land than myself.

Cheers and Beers

Darren


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## DazGore (9/6/20)

DarrenTheDrunk said:


> Thanks Razz. There was a final question (for tonight) that I am certain will have varying opinions but I am a lover of knowledge and can't help myself; so I will pose the question but must make a clear distinction...I am a "lazy brewer" (and way too new) in that I do not use grains at this stage and just use the tins from the home brew shop. further, I do not brew anything fancy...I just want a bloody good common beer:
> 1. how long at say 25c do you allow for a brew to ferment
> 2. following on from Q1 above; lets say the bubbles stop on day 4 and I see no more bubbles (in the air lock) after that
> 3. When do I bottle/keg the beer after this.
> ...


Darren, here goes.

1. The beer chooses its own time, you cannot rush it, the same kit may take 4 days one time and 10 the next. There are a few factors, temperature is the main one. I grow my yeast in a starter and oxygenate before pitching and my beers have finished fermenting after 4 days. In your case allow at least a week. If you can get the temperature lower than 25 would help too. Around 18-21 for your kit would be better.
2. A way to see if the beer is done is by using a hydrometer. If the reading is the same a couple of days apart it's done. You should however leave it a few days after this to allow the yeast to clean up after itself. They produce byproducts during fermenting.
3. So timeline now is probably 2 weeks and you can now bottle/keg. I take it you have no means of temperature controlling your beer? If you do, you would cold crash for a day or 2 to clear up the beer and drop impurities out of solution.
4. a) it can do, depending on style
b) yes, the longer it's left the more things settle.


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## DarrenTheDrunk (9/6/20)

Hooolly shit Batman.. Thanks for your reply Daz. I thought 25 was the best . I have complete control for at least 9 months of the year as I use aquarium heaters in the fermenter (installed properly). Frankly even for those 3 months when is is warm, I can control it with where I put the ferment in the house. I live in Geelong. Yes I understand about the hydrometer readings but I guess I was wondering what the opinion is on the clarity being improved with say 3 weeks left in the fermenter. Man..thanks for your input. This is what os so important on a forum like this. Cheers and Beers


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## Dave70 (10/6/20)

Kegging. If only for the fact that there a couple of decent restaurants out my way who observe the correct definition of BYO and a man can enjoy a homemade beer with his Massaman curry if he chooses. Chill a few flip tops in the freezer for half an hour ans a slow steady poor from the Pluto gun and your sweet. _Weihenstephaner _and the like bottles are also great, plus it saves them from recyclers warehouse furnace. 
I wouldn't go back to bottling exclusively any more than I'll be swapping my mirror-less camera for a hipsterish 35mm retro film antique, i quite enjoy the ritual and the little 'psst' of cracking a bottle now an then.

Incidentally, I think the fretting over cleaning bottles is more meme than fact. Whats so hard about rinsing a bottle and impaling it on a bottle tree at the end of a session? About as challenging an pissing on the back of ones hand.


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## DazGore (10/6/20)

Grmblz said:


> 70/80g dex/sugar in keg,
> Fill keg from bottom avoiding splashing.
> Fit lid and apply 30psi (that's what he's using Mark)
> Spray lid and poppets with foaming sanitiser looking for leaks, especially the big lid O ring. If leak detected re-seat lid.
> ...



Hi, There is a flaw in this method.
Carbonation depends on temperature and pressure.

Using the carbonation charts available online you need to set your spunding valve at the pressure that corresponds to the volumes of carbonation you want, at the temperature you are carbonating. So for your example of an 18 degree carb with spunding set to 15psi, it would only net you 1.82 Volumes, which is way under your target of say 2.5.
All you are doing is effectively losing your co2 into the atmosphere instead of into your beer.
Also, you need to know what temperature your beer is on the immediate second pour from your keggerator, and using the same carbonation chart work out what pressure you need to set your regulator at to achieve the volumes of co2 that you are targeting.

15 psi at 18 degrees is not the same as 15 psi at 4.

I hope this makes sense. You would Spund at around 26 PSI to target 2.49 volumes at 18'c
If your keggerator spits out beer at 5'c you would then need to set your regulator to 12PSI to achieve this (2.49 volumes)
If your keggerator spits out beer at 10'c you would set the regulator to 17PSI for the same 2.5 volumes

So to summarise, you need to know the temperature of your beer, and the temperature of your carbonating environment. Those that force carb in the keggerator this is the same, those natural carbonating in the keg at room temperature need to know room temperature. Use the chart and dial in the pressures accordingly.

Daz


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## Grmblz (10/6/20)

DazGore said:


> Hi, There is a flaw in this method.
> _First off, Darren is brand new, and struggling with basic procedures, he just needs a simple starting point that he can then tweak as he progresses'_
> 
> Carbonation depends on temperature and pressure.
> ...


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## DazGore (10/6/20)

All I am saying is that if Darren naturally carbed in the keg, like you advised, and had his spunding valve at 15 psi, depending on his room temperature he is only making a 1.8 volume beer. So of course his beer is going to be flat. If he set his spunding valve to the target for the temperature he is carbing at, he would have a beer that is close to finished, not one that is only 3/4 of the way there.
The point of spunding is to capture the CO2 produced from fermenting and utilising it, not to waste it into the atmosphere.
You gave great advice, but Temperature is important, and worth learning from the start, novice or not. 
There is less ******* around to just dial in target temps, volumes etc from the start, instead of chasing your tail.


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## Grmblz (10/6/20)

Thank you, fwiw I tend to brew best bitters and dark ales (porters, stouts) and carbonate to my palate, I'm also a huge fan of "real ale" I'm a pom, what can I say. It's been a long time since I looked at a chart (I don't enter comp's, maybe I should) anyway out of curiosity, and doubting my advice to Darren, with your "2.5" in mind, I did a quick Google and came up with this 
Carbonation Levels For Different Beer Styles - Home Brew Answers 
As can be seen the range is 0.8 to 3.1, now 0.8 is pretty bloody flat even by my real ale standards, but what interested/concerned me is 2.0 to 2.5 seems to be a ball park average for the vast majority of the styles, so I'm definitely a bit on the light side, and your 2.5 seems to be where the money is, it's strokes for folks of course, and I'm not about to start pumping out 2.5 best bitters but I think I may need to revise my advice to others, especially in this case as Darren has professed a preference for FIZZY! beer.
Thanks for the input


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## DarrenTheDrunk (10/6/20)

Dave70 said:


> Kegging. If only for the fact that there a couple of decent restaurants out my way who observe the correct definition of BYO and a man can enjoy a homemade beer with his Massaman curry if he chooses. Chill a few flip tops in the freezer for half an hour ans a slow steady poor from the Pluto gun and your sweet. _Weihenstephaner _and the like bottles are also great, plus it saves them from recyclers warehouse furnace.
> I wouldn't go back to bottling exclusively any more than I'll be swapping my mirror-less camera for a hipsterish 35mm retro film antique, i quite enjoy the ritual and the little 'psst' of cracking a bottle now an then.
> 
> Incidentally, I think the fretting over cleaning bottles is more meme than fact. Whats so hard about rinsing a bottle and impaling it on a bottle tree at the end of a session? About as challenging an pissing on the back of ones hand.


Ha ha . Thanks Dave. Clearly you are an 'ol photographer. So was I. In terms of bottling beer, I agree it is not hard to rinse bottles but I gotta say...I drink a shit load and anything that is easier gives me more time to...lets just say...participate in my Hobby With Benefits. Cheers and Beers Dave


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## DarrenTheDrunk (10/6/20)

Grmblz said:


> Thank you, fwiw I tend to brew best bitters and dark ales (porters, stouts) and carbonate to my palate, I'm also a huge fan of "real ale" I'm a pom, what can I say. It's been a long time since I looked at a chart (I don't enter comp's, maybe I should) anyway out of curiosity, and doubting my advice to Darren, with your "2.5" in mind, I did a quick Google and came up with this
> Carbonation Levels For Different Beer Styles - Home Brew Answers
> As can be seen the range is 0.8 to 3.1, now 0.8 is pretty bloody flat even by my real ale standards, but what interested/concerned me is 2.0 to 2.5 seems to be a ball park average for the vast majority of the styles, so I'm definitely a bit on the light side, and your 2.5 seems to be where the money is, it's strokes for folks of course, and I'm not about to start pumping out 2.5 best bitters but I think I may need to revise my advice to others, especially in this case as Darren has professed a preference for FIZZY! beer.
> Thanks for the input




Hey mate. You dont need to change any of your advice. I guess this is what this somewhat technical hobby is all about...its the depth and magnitude of everyone's experience that make this such an interesting topic. Personally, I do not think or accept anyone is comparing the size of each others "appendages". This is the benefit of the collective knowledge. What is the saying (my version)...The collective wisdom of many is far more relevant than the accumulation of individuals...I did say this is "my version" cos I am too pissed to remember to true version !!!! I love this new hobby...,and so does my liver specialist !! cheers and beers


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## DazGore (10/6/20)

Grmblz said:


> Thank you, fwiw I tend to brew best bitters and dark ales (porters, stouts) and carbonate to my palate, I'm also a huge fan of "real ale" I'm a pom, what can I say. It's been a long time since I looked at a chart (I don't enter comp's, maybe I should) anyway out of curiosity, and doubting my advice to Darren, with your "2.5" in mind, I did a quick Google and came up with this
> Carbonation Levels For Different Beer Styles - Home Brew Answers
> As can be seen the range is 0.8 to 3.1, now 0.8 is pretty bloody flat even by my real ale standards, but what interested/concerned me is 2.0 to 2.5 seems to be a ball park average for the vast majority of the styles, so I'm definitely a bit on the light side, and your 2.5 seems to be where the money is, it's strokes for folks of course, and I'm not about to start pumping out 2.5 best bitters but I think I may need to revise my advice to others, especially in this case as Darren has professed a preference for FIZZY! beer.
> Thanks for the input



Thank you,

When we brew beer, we brew it for ourselves, yes, we like to share it with friends, but ultimately it is for ourselves 
A stout according to the book, is carbonated to roughly 2 volumes, for some that seems flat 
If you like your stouts fizzy and highly carbonated, go for it. Brew for you and your tastes, not others.
You are the one drinking the majority of it.

This is a hobby, and it should be enjoyable. You can get caught up in all the technical bullshit, or just wing it. As long as you like the end result that's all that matters.

Cheers


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## MHB (10/6/20)

All that Psi and Volumes shit is rotting your brains 

Say you ferment a beer at 20oC, by the time its finished and ready to package (from Carbonation Tables at Zero Gauge pressure) it will contain about 1.7g/L of dissolved CO2.
You want yellow fizzy beer so around 4.75g/L, clearly you need to add 4.75-1.7=3.05g/L. Ok lets call it 3g/L
Sugar (as is in white) produces ~47% CO2 by weight (well 46.8% really)
Say the keg is 19.6L, 19.6L * 3g/L = 58.8g CO2 are required
58.8g = Mass Sugar/0.468 = 125.6g

No spunding valve, blow off... required. Just sugar and beer into the keg, close the hatch puff of gas to make sure its all closed up then wait.
Mark


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## Grmblz (10/6/20)

^ Just did the sums, looks like my 70g at 20c is on the money for my ales and porter's, thanks for the reminder though, I'll refer to it the next time I want something yellow and fizzy.


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## RRising (10/6/20)

DazGore said:


> Hi, There is a flaw in this method.
> Carbonation depends on temperature and pressure.
> 
> Using the carbonation charts available online you need to set your spunding valve at the pressure that corresponds to the volumes of carbonation you want, at the temperature you are carbonating. So for your example of an 18 degree carb with spunding set to 15psi, it would only net you 1.82 Volumes, which is way under your target of say 2.5.
> ...



I sort of understand that graph but the only thing i don't understand is how long it takes to get it to a certain carbonation level.

Say i want my XPA clone i have just brewed, i want it to 2.55 (i like my beers fizzy) units at 2°C, how long would that take to get that point?


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## MHB (10/6/20)

That's a really complicated question.
The rate is determined by a bunch of variables, the main ones being: -
Surface area to volume - The CO2 has to go in through the liquid gas interface, if there is a lot of beer to carbonate and a small surface for the gas to go through it will take longer.
The Differential - The bigger the difference between the over pressure and the equilibrium point the faster gas transfers. Means it takes about the about the same time to get the first half of the target into solution, as it takes to get to the next half (1/4), again and again (1/8) so the closer to the target the slower the transfer.

That's why shaking the keg, using a carbonation stone (both are increasing the surface area) and upping the pressure (increasing the differential) speed up the process. Also why both can result in over carbonation. Especially if you do both at once.

From personal experience a few days at serving pressure get you close a week and its there.
Mark


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## DazGore (11/6/20)

@Grmblz do you find you get much sediment when naturally carbonating in a keg?
Is it just a case of the first couple of pints being cloudy and the rest is ok?


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## Dave70 (11/6/20)

MHB said:


> All that Psi and Volumes shit is rotting your brains
> 
> Say you ferment a beer at 20oC, by the time its finished and ready to package (from Carbonation Tables at Zero Gauge pressure) it will contain about 1.7g/L of dissolved CO2.
> You want yellow fizzy beer so around 4.75g/L, clearly you need to add 4.75-1.7=3.05g/L. Ok lets call it 3g/L
> ...



Super duper.
Can this process be made slightly more 'vigorous' with higher temps? Say we're using the ubiquitous US05 that can tolerate up to 25 deg. Anything to be gained / lost by holding our keg at say, 23 deg while it carbs up?


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## Grmblz (11/6/20)

DazGore said:


> @Grmblz do you find you get much sediment when naturally carbonating in a keg?
> Is it just a case of the first couple of pints being cloudy and the rest is ok?


Depends on your process, and gear. Yeast is the big one, a high floc'g strain being essential for clear beer, or you can use a floating dip tube (same as a Fermzilla) in your keg and draw from the top (this can be a bit hit and miss using the KL float as it jams up sometimes and sucks air, err CO2, Clear Beer Draught System 
is far superior if you have the coin alternatively a closed pressure transfer to a serving keg. 
If you have a hard yeast pan in the bottom of the keg then it's only the first couple of pours (but this takes extra time for the yeast to really settle) an old trick is to slightly bend the bottom third of the dip tube so that it just contacts the side of the keg, costs about 250ml in lost beer (this is what I do)

We used to serve Worthingtons white shield, an English classic bottle conditioned IPA that was primed with two yeast strains and had quite a layer of hard floc'g yeast on the bottom. 
Customers fell into one of three categories, the "I don't care" easy, the "has to be crystal clear" very careful pour as even the slightest bit of haze resulted in rejection, and "I want it all in my glass" resulting in pouring down to a third of the bottle then swirling to get every bit of yeasty goodness back into suspension before dumping it all into the glass, very time consuming. 
I only mention this to point out that it's really strokes for folks, I'm a swirl it all up type of guy (style dependant of course) so I don't mind a bit of haze and quite like the bottle conditioned flavour you get from keg conditioning, if you're a crystal clear type then the pain of a closed pressure transfer through a filter to a serving keg, might mean force carbing is a better option, you just lose the extra shelf life, the ease of carbonation (see Marks #55 ^ ) and the slightly different taste, but that might suit you of course.


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## MHB (11/6/20)

Bit like ordering a Coopers, you get those who roll the bottle along the bar, those who drip-feed the beer into the glass. Me, given a choice will always pour my own, sort of just what comes out if you pour sensibly.

Dave70, shouldn't matter much, most of the flavour's yeast makes are produced early in he ferment. just note that the hotter beer is the faster it changes. Both for good and ill. but that beer matured slowly and cooler tends to taste better longer... Personally I like to mature at around 18oC, good balance between flavour and speed.
Mark


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## S.E (11/6/20)

Grmblz said:


> an old trick is to slightly bend the bottom third of the dip tube so that it just contacts the side of the keg, costs about 250ml in lost beer (this is what I do)


Another option if you don’t want to bend or cut your long liquid dip is replace it with a short gas dip and a length of silicone tube and let it hang without a float just short and off the bottom of the keg.


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## DazGore (11/6/20)

I have the ssbrewtech fermenter and 2 Brite tanks that i serve from. Everything is glycol chilled and transferred under pressure.
The reason I ask is I have a Belgium dubbel in my fermenter and was thinking of naturally carbonating a couple of kegs and to age/condition for a few months.
I don't fancy bottle conditioning.
I have the cannula canning system, so may do an experiment of can conditioning.


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## Grmblz (11/6/20)

DazGore said:


> I have the ssbrewtech fermenter and 2 Brite tanks that i serve from. Everything is glycol chilled and transferred under pressure.
> _Very nice bit of kit, so clarity is high on your priorities?_
> 
> The reason I ask is I have a Belgium dubbel in my fermenter and was thinking of naturally carbonating a couple of kegs and to age/condition for a few months.
> ...


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## Paleman (9/7/20)

Grmblz said:


> 70/80g dex/sugar in keg,
> Fill keg from bottom avoiding splashing.
> Fit lid and apply 30psi (that's what he's using Mark)
> Spray lid and poppets with foaming sanitiser looking for leaks, especially the big lid O ring. If leak detected re-seat lid.
> ...



Apologies for bringing up old posts. But where on the keg does a spunding valve fit, and where or how do i get one?


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## DarrenTheDrunk (9/7/20)

Hello fellow drinkers
well it's fair to say this post took on a variety of different angles and aspects however I think that is a good thing as people's willingness and capacity to share their own experiences are enhanced. Just when you thought this old fat bastard had disappeared from the Internet… He has another question. Due to some rather extenuating circumstances, I have had some beer (100 L) that has been sitting in the fermenter for possibly one month now. It was fermented with an aquarium heater at 24° so the fermentation took well under a week. My question, if one may, have I left the beer too long and will it be spoiled if I bottled or keg did in the next two days. The airlocks have been in place all this time and I only turned the heaters off a couple of days of go if that makes any difference to the brains trusts answer.On a completely separate matter, could someone please advise me where I can select the option to be notified by email when someone has replied because for the life of me, I cannot see that option in front of me.

Cheers and Beers Big Ears

Darren


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## Paleman (9/7/20)

DarrenTheDrunk said:


> Hello fellow drinkers
> well it's fair to say this post took on a variety of different angles and aspects however I think that is a good thing as people's willingness and capacity to share their own experiences are enhanced. Just when you thought this old fat bastard had disappeared from the Internet… He has another question. Due to some rather extenuating circumstances, I have had some beer (100 L) that has been sitting in the fermenter for possibly one month now. It was fermented with an aquarium heater at 24° so the fermentation took well under a week. My question, if one may, have I left the beer too long and will it be spoiled if I bottled or keg did in the next two days. The airlocks have been in place all this time and I only turned the heaters off a couple of days of go if that makes any difference to the brains trusts answer.On a completely separate matter, could someone please advise me where I can select the option to be notified by email when someone has replied because for the life of me, I cannot see that option in front of me.
> 
> Cheers and Beers Big Ears
> ...



Have a taste, if it tastes ok out of the fermenter bottle or keg it. Nothing to lose really unless you need the room for something else.


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## Paleman (9/7/20)

DarrenTheDrunk said:


> .On a completely separate matter, could someone please advise me where I can select the option to be notified by email when someone has replied because for the life of me, I cannot see that option in front of me.



Click on your username top right hand of screen, then click on preferences.


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## Grmblz (9/7/20)

@DarrenTheDrunk Alternatively top right "watch"
@Paleman this is the valve BlowTie Diaphragm Spunding Valve - Adjustable Pressure Relief Valve
You actually need the kit BlowTie Complete Kit (Diaphragm Spunding Valve)
It goes onto the gas in disconnect, when the pressure gets to the set amount it releases it, just make sure you don't over-fill the keg because the gas in dip tube is quite long and if the keg is too full you'll end up with beer in the gauge and valve (you will do it lol) unless of course you use the Grmblz mod, I remove all the gas in dip tubes in my kegs, they serve a purpose commercially I'm sure but for me it's a hassle I don't need and I can get another couple of lt's into my kegs without the worry of beer going back up the gas line.


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## Paleman (9/7/20)

Grmblz said:


> @DarrenTheDrunk Alternatively top right "watch"
> @Paleman this is the valve BlowTie Diaphragm Spunding Valve - Adjustable Pressure Relief Valve
> You actually need the kit BlowTie Complete Kit (Diaphragm Spunding Valve)
> It goes onto the gas in disconnect, when the pressure gets to the set amount it releases it, just make sure you don't over-fill the keg because the gas in dip tube is quite long and if the keg is too full you'll end up with beer in the gauge and valve (you will do it lol) unless of course you use the Grmblz mod, I remove all the gas in dip tubes in my kegs, they serve a purpose commercially I'm sure but for me it's a hassle I don't need and I can get another couple of lt's into my kegs without the worry of beer going back up the gas line.



Much appreciated, that makes a lot of sense.


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## clickeral (10/7/20)

Hey all great advice in this thread

TBH personally I don't remember the last time I force carbed a keg, but the main thing is making sure its cold and rocked/shaked to help the liquid absorb CO2

I don't use natural carbonation via priming sugar etc when I keg as I like my ABV content to stay the same as what it is at final gravity

When I prime and bottle I adjust my recipe to allow for the additional ABV, unless its the last of a batch that doesnt fit into the keg and yes the bottled beer and my kegged beer of the same batch does taste different due to bottle conditioning at room temp and the higher ABV from the additional sugar 

Kegged beer can taste a bit green to start depending on what you brew

Keg wise I still believe for a beginner the best way to carb a keg is as per below 

*STEP 1:* Chill the beer in keg down to serving temperature (4–8 c)

*STEP 2:* Set your regulator to 10–12 psi

*STEP 3:* Connect gas to ‘Gas In’ post

*STEP 4:* Leave keg to sit (cold) under pressure for 10–14 days

*STEP 5:* After 10–14 days, connect your beer tap line to ‘Liquid Out’ post. Sample. If under carbonated, leave for a further 24hrs before re-testing. If carbonated, *SERVE & ENJOY!*

You can hook the gas up when you start chilling it as well, if you want higher carbonation set your reg 1psi on the next batch and see how that goes 

Doing it this way is the set and forget method, and really hard to mess up, I have drank beer from the keg after a week via this method as well. it also gives the beer time to age


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## DarrenTheDrunk (10/7/20)

clickeral said:


> Hey all great advice in this thread
> 
> TBH personally I don't remember the last time I force carbed a keg, but the main thing is making sure its cold and rocked/shaked to help the liquid absorb CO2
> 
> ...



Thanks mate. your reply is exactly how I like them to be. Very simple with step by step instruction. To say I am not the sharpest pencil in the pencil case certainly when it comes to this hobby is an understatement. And my dear dear technical consultants Grmblz (Grahame) and DazGore (Dazzler) will attest to this statement. I have been MIA for the past 2 weeks do to medical reasons and today I am going to keg up two batches doing it EXACTLY as Dazzler advised on this occasion including leaving it chilled and gassed up for 2 weeks. I will have a little "sip" after say 4 and 8 days cos thats just what ya gotta do...and I will report back on my success or failure. The 3 kegs I have now sitting in the fridge and lounge room will be disposed of which makes it 7 x 19 liter kegs I have "f#@%&ed up or at least think I did but I guess it is the price I need to pay in the learning process.

Cheers and Beers Big Ears

'Darren


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## Georgedgerton (10/7/20)

professional_drunk said:


> When kegging, I find most of the time the beer is good to drink as soon as it's carbed. It does hit a peak somewhere around 3-4 weeks. But, my brewing processes are different to yours and that may affect the numbers I just told you.
> Keep practicing and improving your process. There's no one thing we can tell you that will help because brewing is about doing many small things well. I'm sure I've dumped hundreds of liters of beer from my mistakes. Take it as the cost of tuition.


I've rarely had a beer good to go straight from carbonation. In general I find most of my brews seem to be getting good at around that 3 week period


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## Georgedgerton (10/7/20)

clickeral said:


> Hey all great advice in this thread
> 
> TBH personally I don't remember the last time I force carbed a keg, but the main thing is making sure its cold and rocked/shaked to help the liquid absorb CO2
> 
> ...


I agree, I always carb my beer up at serving pressure, forcing it just doesn't cut the mustard, for me at least


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