# Recipedb - Altbier



## manticle

Altbier  Ale - North German Altbier  All Grain                      Brewer's Notes Step mash:TEMP: 55/63/67/72/78MINS: 5/10/45/10/10Decoct a thick mash portion after hitting 67 and add back for mash out.Primary fermentation should be around 14 degrees.Conditioning refers to cold conditioning/lagering. As long as you can be bothered really but minimum 3 weeks at 0-2 degrees.Beer was no chilled.Actual FG was 1010 so higher alc and drier than suggested.NB: 300g of Briess Victory malt was added : not in the drop down menu. Dingemans biscuit would be a fine sub (and my preferred - I just didn't have any).Choc malt was actually simpsons as that is what I had on hand but in that amount the difference is probably small.Sulphate: Chloride ration adjusted for your water/mash but I added about 3-4g each to mash and boil using Melbourne water.   Malt & Fermentables    % KG Fermentable      4 kg Weyermann Pilsner    4 kg Weyermann Vienna    0.1 kg Bairds Light Chocolate Malt       Hops    Time Grams Variety Form AA      70 g Styrian Goldings (Pellet, 5.4AA%, 60mins)    70 g Tettnang (Pellet, 4.5AA%, 60mins)    20 g Styrian Goldings (Pellet, 5.4AA%, 20mins)    20 g Tettnang (Pellet, 4.5AA%, 20mins)    10 g Styrian Goldings (Pellet, 5.4AA%, 0mins)    10 g Tettnang (Pellet, 4.5AA%, 0mins)       Yeast     2000 ml Wyeast Labs 1007 - German Ale         35L Batch Size    Brew Details   Original Gravity 1.051 (calc)   Final Gravity 1.013 (calc)   Bitterness 59 IBU   Efficiency 70%   Alcohol 4.94%   Colour 23 EBC   Batch Size 35L     Fermentation   Primary 7 days   Secondary 7 days   Conditioning 4 days


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## eamonnfoley

Looks great, although Styrians may give a non-german impression. but they will probably just be awesome.

Just been to Dusseldorf for the second time, and I still maintain mid to late hopping is a prominent feature in several alts (Uerige & Schlussel for example). And its Spalter all the way. I am a massive fan of the hop. 

Uerige was exploding with heavy, raw, spalt goodness (in taste, not aroma, and plenty of bittering). It is quite possible the best beer I have ever had. Schlussel is really good too, but spalt is later (aroma and taste, but more gentle). Then Schumacher is the alt that most seem to stereotype - very bitter, no hop flavour, nice malt taste, but smooth and attenuated.


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## manticle

Spalt is a hop I've never tried but it is next on my list for this recipe. I'll try it next time without any other hop, much as I love styrians.


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## felten

the recipe link got messed up in the edit


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## manticle

Try this: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...amp;recipe=1441


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## manticle

Going to try this again in the next couple of weeks but with the vienna malt split 50:50 with munich 1 and with spalt replacing the styrians.


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## petesbrew

manticle said:


> Going to try this again in the next couple of weeks but with the vienna malt split 50:50 with munich 1 and with spalt replacing the styrians.


All the best Manticle
I'm cracking grain tonight for my latest Alt as well.
*Meistertrunk Altbier*
A ProMash Recipe Report
Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (L): 23.00 Wort Size (L): 23.00
Total Grain (kg): 5.55
Anticipated OG: 1.052 Plato: 12.873
Anticipated EBC: 27.0
Anticipated IBU: 51.3
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Grain/Extract/Sugar
% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
9.0 0.50 kg. JWM Light Munich Australia 1.039 13
81.1 4.50 kg. JWM Export Pilsner Australia 1.039 3
3.6 0.20 kg. Melanoidin Malt 1.033 69
1.8 0.10 kg. Weyermann Carafa Special I Germany 1.036 950
4.5 0.25 kg. Weyermann Caramunich I Germany 1.036 34
Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.

Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
15.00 g. Northern Brewer Pellet 9.00 22.0 90 min.
40.00 g. Spalter Spalt Pellet 4.75 28.1 60 min.
10.00 g. Spalter Spalt Whole 4.75 1.2 10 min.

Yeast
-----
White Labs WLP036 Dusseldorf Alt


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## Fatgodzilla

Looks and sounds good Manticle. Alt - It's a simple beer and a personal favourite. Vienna is "between" pils and munich - I've done good alts using all three base grains and melanoiden for colour and depth (the lighter the grain base, the more mel). Love using de-bittered Carafa for colour (a little dab will do you). Never used Styrians but love Tettnang (also Perle and Willamette seem to work fine too). Have used spalt but can't remember anything bad about it, so must be good. German yeast is also interchangeable with Irish & Scottish yeast and have made nice ones using those yeasts.

Altbier to me is a lot like saying pale ale - you can get a lot of different quirks in the beer and still keep it within guidelines. The true success in altbier is if it tastes good enough to have another one. Sounds like this one is a winner!


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## manticle

While definitely not traditional in an alt as far as I'm aware, styrians bring a lot to so many beer styles (UK, Belgian etc) and are one of the best hops in my opinion - great balance between flavour and aroma, smooth as noble type bitterness.

I love tett but styrians sit equal fave for me.

Slightly OT but fuckit, it's my recipe thread.

As an aside - a lot of people seem to suggest that alts should have only bittering additions but both texts such as Dornbusch's* altbier and brewers who have visited and sampled alts in situ (such as Foles and newguy) suggest that quite a few examples show evidence of flavour and aroma hopping (Dornbusch even talks about dry hopping).

*Dornbusch has some pedigree as a beer/brewing authority but Ron Pattinson sugggests he may be guilty of some non-alt related arseththroughtalking here: http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com.au/2010...te-almanac.html


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## Fatgodzilla

manticle said:


> As an aside - a lot of people seem to suggest that alts should have only bittering additions but both texts such as Dornbusch's* altbier and brewers who have visited and sampled alts in situ (such as Foles and newguy) suggest that quite a few examples show evidence of flavour and aroma hopping (Dornbusch even talks about dry hopping).







> I tasted their beers side by side. Diebels Alt is very smooth, with a biscuity malt accent; Schlosser's has a slightly syrupy maltiness; Gatzweiler's is the fruitiest; Hannen spritzy and sharp (this beer has declined in character, and sales, in recent years); Frankenheim light, dry, yeasty and slightly sulphury; and Rhenania slightly thick-tasting. I enjoyed them all, but any of them would have been improved by a little more hop



this is from Michael Jackson's site on Alts. I've no ideas on these particular beers and where Jacko would have wanted the hop (assuming bittering) but it backs up two things - alt is a malt driven ale but you can see the variations in one city's breweries versions .. and if the Beer Hunter says these fine alts needs hops, I reckon Manticle old son, put more hops in where ever you want! Especially aroma hops which won't affect the flavour - by golly, don't you love noble-type hop aroma !


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## felten

What about yeast choice, would you always go with the 1007 or maybe try something else?


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## manticle

I think the yeast range is quite specific and quite limited from the reading I've done. If I could get whitelabs more easily, I'd give one of those a whirl (although it may be exactly the same strain/blend as 1007). Not sure what else would be suitable. 

Love trying new yeasts though so if there's any suggestions....................


1007 is a cracker though.

@Fatz: Cheers mate. Noble hops (and those that fit the bill like styrians and EKG with their low aa and cohumulone etc) seem to get forgotten in an array of super power aa% nuclear bomb fruit salad hops but I love them.


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## felten

Thanks for that, I have a sack of munich malt and a pound of styrians so this looks like the perfect style to use them on. Just wondering if there was a yeast that would be suitable for use on lagers as well as altbier, because I'm cheap and don't want to buy both


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## Wolfman

Looks the goods Manticle and looks as though I'll be making another of your recipes!
Just a quick question though, can you explain this please:

"Decoct a thick mash portion after hitting 67 and add back for mash out."

Cheers


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## manticle

Main mash:

Raise the grain bed to 63 and hold for 10 minutes.
Raise to 67, then take out 1/3 of the mash (some liquid but mainly grain) and place in a pot.
Slowly bring to a boil on the stove, ensuring that the mash does not burn or stick.

Meanwhile the main mash stays at 67 for the remainder of the mash then gets raised to 72 and stays there for 10 minutes.
Take the decocting portion from the stove and slowly add back in till either the mash hits 78 or you have added in all the mash.

If you have decocted mash left over, you can add water to get the temp around 78 and add in with or just before the sparge. If you come up short on temp, raise temp however you have been raising it earlier (whether direct heat, infusion or in my case - immersion element).

@felten - not sure but it would need to be a lager yeast with a bit of character - not super clean/neutral.


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## Wolfman

Giving this a go tomz. 

Cheers on the explaination.


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## manticle

Mine is nearing its diacetyl rest and lagering time so you can try my new version in a few weeks.


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## Wolfman

Sweet.

What is the ferment schedule?


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## manticle

Ferment around 14 with a 2L active starter (I NC so I take the last bit from the kettle, let the shit drop out overnight, reboil the 2 odd litres I get, cool and add the yeast. When it's actively fermenting, I add the whole lot).

Keep at 14 until you get below 1020, then slowly warm up to 18 or so for a diacetyl rest and to finish off. Leave at ale temps for a week after hitting FG then cold condition for 3 weeks minimum.


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## manticle

Made a similar beer but with a more traditional hopping schedule last winter.

I made two batches of the same recipe at different times. One was bottled, one was kegged and the remainder (after a club annual dinner) was bottled.

Both won their categories in the State Championships - entered one as a North German Altbier and the other (CPBF version) as a Dusselforf altbier.

Tweaked recipe:

Altbier

Type:	All grain	Size:	22 liters
Color: 22 HCU (~12 SRM) 
Bitterness: 45 IBU
OG:	1.052	
FG:	1.012
Alcohol:	5.2% v/v (4.1% w/w)
Grain:	2.5kg Weyerman Pilsner
1.25kg Weyerman Vienna
1.25kg Weyerman Munich
200g Briess victory
75g Simpsons chocolate
Mash: 70% efficiency
TEMP: 55/62/67/72/78
TIME: 5/10/50/10/10

Decoct at 62 and add back to reach 72
Decoct at 67 and add back to reach 78

Boil: 90minutes, SG 1.036, 32 liters
Hops:25g Spalt (5.7% AA, 60 min.)
25g Tettnanger (3.5% AA, 60 min.)
20g Spalt (5.7% AA, 20 min.)
20g Tettnanger (3.5% AA, 20 min.)
10g Spalt (aroma)
10g Tettnanger (aroma)

2g CaCl2 and 2g CaSO4 + phosphoric acid as required for mash pH
2g CaCl2 and CaSO4 to boil.

WYEAST 1007


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## DJ_L3ThAL

Hey manticle link to original recipe is broken, I can't seem to find it in RecipeDB.

Very keen to have a crack at one of these as I still have that Spalt from the giveaway!! 

I've had Stone & Wood Stone Beer which is apparently an Altbier, have you had it and is it close to traditional? If not can you recommend something I can get locally to try as an example?


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## manticle

Last post of mine on the previous page has a revised recipe. From memory, the original was for an odd amount (like 35 L) and featured styrian goldings and tettnanger. I now do it all with spalt but spalt, tett, whatever all works. Needs firm, smooth bitterness some late hopping and healthy active 1007 yeast, fermented at or below 14, good 3 weeks to clear past FG.

Decoction and step mashing well worth it if you can.

No idea what has happened to the link and ever since the db got altered, it's been a total bugger to search for anything that isn't on the first page.


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## DJ_L3ThAL

Awesome, will use second recipe you posted, thanks mate am looking forward to having a crack at it!


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## Weizguy

I found your Altbier recipe link (35 litre batch)


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## warra48

I'm putting down a Düsseldorf Alt tomorrow:

25 litre batch, predicted OG around 1.050.

3000 gr Premium Pilsner
2000 gr Munich I
100 gr Caraaroma
50 gr Choc Wheat
Smaragd & Spalter @ 60 min to 46 IBU
Spalter @ 10 min to 4 IBU
Wyeast 2565 from 2 litre starter (less a bit saved for the next culture).

The Smaragd is not traditional, but I'm using it because I have it and need to use it up. I've brewed several batches of Alt in past years and I think this will get pretty close to actual Alt.

I was in Düsseldorf last year, and my impressions of the beers accord with Foles' comments in post #2. 
My favourite from all the many I drank was Schumacher.
Great shame these beers aren't available commercially in Australia, as far as I can see. They're terrific beers.

Bought the Wyeast from Brewman last Saturday, very fresh, 5 Jan date. It fully swelled up within 2 hours, and grew like crazy in the flask.


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## Brewman_

I love this style.
Awesome beer.
But unlike Warra I have never had an authentic version, so I've just gone from the Style guidelines.

The one's I have made were using 1007 German Ale. Been pretty happy with that too. Not sure if I fermented as cold as what Manticle did though, recommended between 13 and 20 degrees, I think I was around the 17 mark, but turned out well. Be nice to have some authentic examples to compare to.

Very interested to see how it turns out Warra with the different yeast hops.


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## manticle

Les the Weizguy said:


> I found your Altbier recipe link (35 litre batch)


Cheers Les


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## DJ_L3ThAL

Anyone tried WLP036 Düsseldorf alt yeast? Is it similar to or the same as Wyeast 1007?


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## manticle

According to Kristen England they are both the zum uriege strain originally.


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## DJ_L3ThAL

manticle said:


> According to Kristen England they are both the zum uriege strain originally.


Interesting, as white labs say optimum ferment temp is 18-21C, then also for the WLP029 (German ale) they state it can't ferment lower than 17C unless during active fermentation.

But the alt style is best fermented at 13-14C though and is what you have found gives best results with 1007?


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## manticle

I've got my fridge set at 11.5 to allow for fermentation generated heat and in my experience it should it ferment healthily. Same wort starter kicked off at same temp within a day.

Sometimes I bump the temp up to 16-17 after 72 hours or so but I have fermented cool all the way through with no dramas.

It will definitely go below 17.


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## Weizguy

warra48 said:


> I'm putting down a Düsseldorf Alt tomorrow:
> 
> 25 litre batch, predicted OG around 1.050.
> 
> 3000 gr Premium Pilsner
> 2000 gr Munich I
> 100 gr Caraaroma
> 50 gr Choc Wheat
> Smaragd & Spalter @ 60 min to 46 IBU
> Spalter @ 10 min to 4 IBU
> Wyeast 2565 from 2 litre starter (less a bit saved for the next culture).
> 
> The Smaragd is not traditional, but I'm using it because I have it and need to use it up. I've brewed several batches of Alt in past years and I think this will get pretty close to actual Alt.
> 
> I was in Düsseldorf last year, and my impressions of the beers accord with Foles' comments in post #2.
> My favourite from all the many I drank was Schumacher.
> Great shame these beers aren't available commercially in Australia, as far as I can see. They're terrific beers.
> 
> Bought the Wyeast from Brewman last Saturday, very fresh, 5 Jan date. It fully swelled up within 2 hours, and grew like crazy in the flask.


Please bring some to the next club meet for me.

I still have plans for an Alt, and I will post the recipe here, or should I go to the Style of the week thread?
I recall that I have Weyermann Pale ale malt set aside for this, sourced when MHB's shop was still in business.


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## warra48

Very happy to bring some along to HUB. Maybe not next meeting, as it will take some time. Will ferment for probably 2 weeks before lagering for another 3 weeks or so, then bottling.

No reason you couldn't post the same recipe in each of the threads you mention.


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## Weizguy

warra48 said:


> Very happy to bring some along to HUB. Maybe not next meeting, as it will take some time. Will ferment for probably 2 weeks before lagering for another 3 weeks or so, then bottling.
> 
> No reason you couldn't post the same recipe in each of the threads you mention.


Thanks for the vote of confidence, Warra, and offer of a sample.
Looks like I was wrong about the Pale Ale malt. That must have been what I used in my Kölsch.

UERIGE ALTered (based on the Wheeler recipe)

46 litre batch predicted o.g. - 1.050
Est alc - 5.2%

2.086 kg MEU (Aus) Pilsner
6.27 kg Munich I (Weyermann)
1.1 kg Abbey malt (Weyermann) at MHB's suggestion
0.250 kg Caraaroma


Saaz (Bittering) (T45) 120g @ 90 min to 47 IBU
Saaz plugs (Flavour) 28g @ 10 min to ~1.7 IBU

Brewbrite (5 doses) at 10 min before end of boil
Wyeast 1007 - 5 litre starter


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## manticle

Looks alright to me. What's your mash schedule? I prefer no crystal - with lots of munich/vienna and some decoction I get plenty of sweet maltiness but I can't see it being terribly out of place.

Great yeast and like so many beers, it plays a starring role.


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## pat86

warra48 said:


> I'm putting down a Düsseldorf Alt tomorrow:
> 
> 25 litre batch, predicted OG around 1.050.
> 
> 3000 gr Premium Pilsner
> 2000 gr Munich I
> 100 gr Caraaroma
> 50 gr Choc Wheat
> Smaragd & Spalter @ 60 min to 46 IBU
> Spalter @ 10 min to 4 IBU
> Wyeast 2565 from 2 litre starter (less a bit saved for the next culture).
> 
> The Smaragd is not traditional, but I'm using it because I have it and need to use it up. I've brewed several batches of Alt in past years and I think this will get pretty close to actual Alt.
> 
> I was in Düsseldorf last year, and my impressions of the beers accord with Foles' comments in post #2.
> My favourite from all the many I drank was Schumacher.
> Great shame these beers aren't available commercially in Australia, as far as I can see. They're terrific beers.
> 
> Bought the Wyeast from Brewman last Saturday, very fresh, 5 Jan date. It fully swelled up within 2 hours, and grew like crazy in the flask.


I also was a big fan of the Schumacher Alt in particular. Have you read Altbier? There is a recipe which was recommended / formulated by the old Schumacher brewer. I definitely didn't nail it due to process and diff hops when I made it but I can post it for you if you haven't got the book? 

The main difference if I remember is a much larger % of Munich malt very close to 100% while the other Dusseldorf breweries used more like 20-50%. 

I've asked Dr Smurto previously about the yeast and agree with his advice - 1007 all the way. 

I thought it was quite different to beers I made with 2565 kolsch yeast.


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## Weizguy

manticle said:


> Looks alright to me. What's your mash schedule? I prefer no crystal - with lots of munich/vienna and some decoction I get plenty of sweet maltiness but I can't see it being terribly out of place.
> 
> Great yeast and like so many beers, it plays a starring role.


I think I got the mash schedule from Horst Dornbusch, when he was BYO's recipe formulator.

50°C for 30 min, and 65°C for 60 min, then mash out for 10 min.

I did a decoction last time I made an alt, and did not see much value. Maybe next time. This batch is mostly for keg filling.

my W1007 culture has been in the family since I was extract brewing, and this is my 10th year of ag (*takes a bow, and has a laugh).


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## warra48

pat86 said:


> I also was a big fan of the Schumacher Alt in particular. Have you read Altbier? There is a recipe which was recommended / formulated by the old Schumacher brewer. I definitely didn't nail it due to process and diff hops when I made it but I can post it for you if you haven't got the book?
> 
> The main difference if I remember is a much larger % of Munich malt very close to 100% while the other Dusseldorf breweries used more like 20-50%.
> 
> I've asked Dr Smurto previously about the yeast and agree with his advice - 1007 all the way.
> 
> I thought it was quite different to beers I made with 2565 kolsch yeast.


I've not read the book, but would love to have a look at the recipe.


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## pat86

Here we go, sorry it took a while: 

Enderlein's Alt

Munich - light (6.5L) author suggests if your Munich 1 is darker to try subbing a small % of two row pale malt

5 gallons
40IBU
OG: 1047
FG: 1010
ABV 4.8%
SRM 11-12

These values are just predicted of course

Malt: 9.25 pounds of Munich

Hops: 40IBU - Hallertau Mittlefruh
+ 1 ounce of Hallertau Mittlefruh at flame out for aroma. 

He doesn't say this is a Clone for Schumacher Alt, just that the recipe was supplied by the brewmaster there for the book... 

I had recalled it using spalt so interested to see how it turns out next time and will have to look at what L my best malz Munich is. 

He doesn't give a specific mash profile for each recipe, there are a few throughout the book. The generic one he recommends +/-1C is:

50C dough in protein rest -30m

64C beta sacc rest -15 mins

69C alpha - 15 mins

77C mash out

Sparge. 

Recommends a 90-120 minute boil 

Good luck and keen to hear how your alts progress!


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