# How clean is a fermenter



## bonk1972 (28/1/15)

I wash my vat out with bleach after every use but normally senatise straight away and put another brew in....is the smell left from the last brew... is that normal or should I try and clean it until the smell is gone


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## jyo (28/1/15)

Get some sodium percarbonate and soak your fermenters for a couple of days. It's great stuff, cheap and they will shine and smell superb.


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## Dave70 (28/1/15)

I only ever use bleach, about a 50/50 mix from a spray bottle and a good scrub (not a scourer) with hot water. Never had an infection in so far.
A day or two in the sunshine and the brutal Aussie UV rays get em smelling fresh also.

Sodium perc is a ripper for general cleaning to be sure.


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## Screwtop (28/1/15)

When it comes to plastic fermenters. You can clean them and sanitise them. But getting rid of the aroma left behind from the previous beer/cider/ginger beer/hop aroma is very difficult. Some carries over!

Since moving to double and triple batches I have done enough side by side tests using Stainless and Plastic fermenters to prove this well enough to my satisfaction.

Screwy


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## DJ_L3ThAL (28/1/15)

Screwtop said:


> When it comes to plastic fermenters. You can clean them and sanitise them. But getting rid of the aroma left behind from the previous beer/cider/ginger beer/hop aroma is very difficult. Some carries over!
> 
> Since moving to double and triple batches I have done enough side by side tests using Stainless and Plastic fermenters to prove this well enough to my satisfaction.
> 
> Screwy


Screwy did you prove that the smell carried over in plastic gets transmitted into the beer or that the plastic FV just still smells a bit like previous batches?


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## Spiesy (29/1/15)

So glad I switched to stainless, for a number of reasons. 

The aroma of 8000 previous brews is but one of them. Fwiw, I always soaked my plastic fermenter in sodium perc and hot water. Never seemed to get rid of the lingering aroma. 

Have not had this problem with stainless, now up to 6-months of constant use.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (29/1/15)

Spiesy said:


> So glad I switched to stainless, for a number of reasons.
> 
> The aroma of 8000 previous brews is but one of them. Fwiw, I always soaked my plastic fermenter in sodium perc and hot water. Never seemed to get rid of the lingering aroma.
> 
> Have not had this problem with stainless, now up to 6-months of constant use.


I concur, just wonder if the aroma that stays in the fermenter actually has noticeable effect to anyone on the finished product? I haven't noticed the aroma of say a hefe in my pale ale I brewed after it in the same FV.

Don't get me wrong I'm all for stainless and plan to get there one day to eliminate permeability, ease of cleaning and just cos it's damn shiny. But interested to know if anyone can pickup a difference in taste or aroma?


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## Screwtop (29/1/15)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Screwy did you prove that the smell carried over in plastic gets transmitted into the beer or that the plastic FV just still smells a bit like previous batches?


Side by sides proved only that beer fermented in plastic had a different aroma and tasted different. The second half fermented in stainless tasted clean, more hop bright and more like whatever the beer style was that was being fermented. One plastic fermenter would produce an acetaldehyde like aroma/flavour. I had been working on my brewing processes for many years in an attempt to get rid of these flaws. Began using stainless and soon found that the flaws were related to the various plastic fermenters I had been using. Other brewers have visited and tried my split batch beers and all have been able to identify a difference. The common description is that the half of the batch fermented in stainless has a clean taste and aroma or is less like homebrew 




Spiesy said:


> So glad I switched to stainless, for a number of reasons.
> 
> The aroma of 8000 previous brews is but one of them. Fwiw, I always soaked my plastic fermenter in sodium perc and hot water. Never seemed to get rid of the lingering aroma.
> 
> Have not had this problem with stainless, now up to 6-months of constant use.



Similar here, and so frikkin easy to clean! 


Screwy


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## stux (29/1/15)

I've found that a good go in tthe sun can get rid of fermenter odor from a clean fermenter


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## S.E (29/1/15)

I use hot caustic to clean my plastic fermenters and cubes and have never noticed any beer/hop aromas carry over from the previous brew.

I have noticed that after I have cleaned them (takes about 5-10 minutes) they don’t smell of anything, just clean. But if I don’t use them immediately and leave them for a few days they smell of new plastic again.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (29/1/15)

Stux said:


> I've found that a good go in tthe sun can get rid of fermenter odor from a clean fermenter


Aren't all the UV'ers worried about UV degradation of the plastic changing it's properties and whilst being more "sterile", leeching unwanted chemicals from the plastic into the beer?


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## S.E (29/1/15)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Aren't all the UV'ers worried about UV degradation of the plastic changing it's properties and whilst being more "sterile", leeching unwanted chemicals from the plastic into the beer?


I’ve had two cubes and a fermenter go brittle and crack leaving them in the sun.

A few weeks ago I was preparing to clean a cube that hadn’t been used for a few months. It had been outside in a mostly shaded aria. I was tapping the lid on the top of the cube to knock out the rubber ring and the top of the cube shattered.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (29/1/15)

S.E said:


> I’ve had two cubes and a fermenter go brittle and crack leaving them in the sun.
> 
> A few weeks ago I was preparing to clean a cube that hadn’t been used for a few months. It had been outside in a mostly shaded aria. I was tapping the lid on the top of the cube to knock out the rubber ring and the top of the cube shattered.


Suspected so... I keep all my cubes empty or full inside a closed cupboard in the garage, no light or heat swings that way. Whilst soaking / cleaning they are inside for an amount of days so get *some* UV, but yeah definitely not keen to leave outside in the sun.


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## S.E (29/1/15)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Suspected so... I keep all my cubes empty or full inside a closed cupboard in the garage, no light or heat swings that way. Whilst soaking / cleaning they are inside for an amount of days so get *some* UV, but yeah definitely not keen to leave outside in the sun.


Ideally I would prefer to store my cubes in doors but just don’t have room for them all. I have a brew cupboard in the garage but it’s mostly filled with sacks of grain.


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## stux (29/1/15)

I've had an entire batch of cubes (8) go brittle and crack after been left in the sun for many months. So glad I realized while cleaning them rather than filling. 

But I'm not advocating extended periods in the sun.


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## Screwtop (30/1/15)

Never used Caustic to clean fermenters only brew plumbing and vessels. Used to clean my fermenters with Sodium Perc, then sanitise with Bleach/Vinegar Solution. Immediately after rinsing they smelled of bleach/vinegar, but after a while they smell the same as they did prior. 

Would never store outside in the sun, maybe a large ozone generator, ................. nah SS fermenters are cheaper 

Screwy


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## mongey (30/1/15)

mine must be really dirty . I usually just clean it straight after bottles with a sponge and water and then give it a good sanitise with left over idophor from bottling


then before putting on a new batch give it another wipe down sponging and then santiise again

done 8 or 9 brews no with no problems but maybe I should be cleaning better ?


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## Rod (30/1/15)

I believe plastic fermenters under a microscope would look like a sponge with lots of little holes

the better the plastic , ie food grade the smaller the holes

but still there

I soak my fermenters in PSR and the stain disappears which indicates a better clean

would like a conical stainless fermenter but could not lift it in and out of the temperature controlled fridge


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## Mr. No-Tip (30/1/15)

My fermenters have a certain smell after cleaning but i wouldn't say it's carry through. I never get IPA in a kolsch.

As for using bleach. Crazyness. Companies research and create no rinse sanitisers for a reason.


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## Screwtop (30/1/15)

Mr. No-Tip said:


> My fermenters have a certain smell after cleaning but i wouldn't say it's carry through. I never get IPA in a kolsch.
> 
> As for using bleach. Crazyness. Companies research and create no rinse sanitisers for a reason.


Yes they do, to be used as a SANITISER.

Different jobs for different chemical agents.

*Sodium Percarbonate* = *CLEANER* (breaks down organic matter)

*10% Bleach/Vinegar Solution* = *DISINFECTANT*

*No Rinse Solutions* = *SANITISER*
*Disinfectants* STOP bacteria and *sanitisers* SLOW down bacteria.
The scientific reason behind the difference of disinfectants and sanitisers is the dilution. Disinfectants must have higher capability for killing pathogenic bacteria compared to that of a sanitiser. According to EPA requirements a disinfectant must kill 99.99% or more of specified bacteria whereas sanitisers must kill at least 99.99% of three specified bacteria within a specified time period.
Disinfectants stop the growth of microorganisms. 
Sanitisers reduce the amount of microorganisms to a safe level but cannot kill them since they don’t contain the killer chemical agent that a disinfectant does.

Lots to learn!

Screwy


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## nvs-brews (30/1/15)

hummmm, maybe i should start fermenting more in a corny... i was thinking a demijohn but i can fit so many more cornys in my fridge... and i have a few spare now..


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## QldKev (30/1/15)

I clean the shit out of my fermenters when changing yeats. They still have a hoppy aroma. Probably why we don't store yeasts in plastic or zip lock bags, too venerable to infection.


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## rude (30/1/15)

Screwtop said:


> Yes they do, to be used as a SANITISER.
> 
> Different jobs for different chemical agents.
> 
> ...


I like that post Screwy
I use sodium perc to clean & this to disinfect


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## QldKev (30/1/15)

So I should not wipe my dick on the curtains after sex or not? or does the Huwa-San make it ok


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## rude (30/1/15)

Well if youre dick goes into youre fermenter then disinfect it for sure


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## Mr. No-Tip (30/1/15)

Screwtop said:


> Lots to learn!
> 
> Screwy


Lesson 1: bleach belongs in the laundry, not the brewery.


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## Brewman_ (31/1/15)

Interesting topic.
Clean, sanitised and fit for brewing may be all different things.

Plastics.
First up I like plastics and I use them. You can clean these and sanitise all you like, but as mentioned they carry some aroma from previous brews. I have never found that an issue even when doing delicate beers, they still turn out great. But there is one exception to that I have found. The hop and malts flavours don't really taint the next beer, but if any Chlorine based cleaners / sanitisers have been used these can. It's only a marginal thing and it depends on how the chemicals are used and how sensitive the drinker is to the flavour / aroma. Not saying I would never use a chlorine based cleaner on plastic, but I would do it very rarely and never any time I was leading up to entering a competition. Rather stick to Sodium Perc or a brewery wash. Sunlight is a good sanitiser too, but most, nearly all brewing plastics are not UV stabilised, so they will go brittle very fast.
Infection. If I ever get an infection in plastic, I will dispose of every piece of plastic that has touched that brew. If you can smell your last beer in plastic, there's a good chance there's some infection in that material too even after all the cleaning and sanitising. I learnt this the hard way.

Stainless and Glass. I like these material and I use stainless, but I don't have glass. I find these fermenters, well the stainless ones I use clean up very nicely using the right cleaners and sanitisers. I don't find SS tainted from the flavours and aromas of the previous batches. I also use the same cleaners and sanitisers as plastics, sodium perc or brew wash.
I've never had an infection in stainless, but you can clean and sanitise that out for these materials in my opinion if you did get one

Storage. Any time the fermenters are not being used make sure they are dry. If there's any moisture, things will grow in them.


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## Spiesy (31/1/15)

Brewman_ said:


> If you can smell your last beer in plastic, there's a good chance there's some infection in that material too even after all the cleaning and sanitising.


Disagree. A lingering beer aroma in plastic does not indicate an infection. It merely indicates that beer (or aroma compounds from the beer) have been absorbed by the plastic.


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## Screwtop (31/1/15)

Mr. No-Tip said:


> Lesson 1: bleach belongs in the laundry, not the brewery.


Correct, for the brewery a 10% (5% bleach plus 5% Vinegar to drop the PH) solution makes a great disinfectant for brewery equipment. It is not a No Rinse Sanitiser! It is a disinfectant and equipment should be rinsed after use, then stored prior to next use. 



Brewman_ said:


> Interesting topic.
> Clean, sanitised and fit for brewing may be all different things.
> 
> Plastics.
> ...


Yes, Chlorine based disinfectant solution should be used after cleaning using Sodium Perc then rinsed and then stored dry as you mention. Some airborne bugs are bound to settle on fermenter walls during storage so fermenters made from any material should be 'Sanitised' prior to use on brew day. 



Spiesy said:


> Disagree. A lingering beer aroma in plastic does not indicate an infection. It merely indicates that beer (or aroma compounds from the beer) have been absorbed by the plastic.


Correct!


Screwy


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## Brewman_ (1/2/15)

Spiesy said:


> Disagree. A lingering beer aroma in plastic does not indicate an infection. It merely indicates that beer (or aroma compounds from the beer) have been absorbed by the plastic.


Hi Spiesy,

My previous post was ambiguous. Let me clarify.

I agree aroma in a plastic is no indication of infection. Far from it, and not a problem.

My point is. If you get an infection in plastic, then it is not recoverable. I refer to aroma, meaning there is some trace of previous brews and if the previous brew was infected there is a good chance, not a guarantee that the infection remains too. Plastics are different to other materials in that they can, I won't say will, retain traces of unwanted infections. My experience is that they do.

Hope that clarifies my point.

Cheers Steve


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## Matplat (3/2/15)

Well, i've just finished cleaning and sanitising my fermenter after reading this thread and completing my first brew. 

I had planned to just use napisan, which is what i did first, rinsed it soaked it rinsed again i could still smell a beery pong but wasnt to fussed as expected it from above posts.

Then i remembered reading someone had said they use hot caustic and it came up fresh every time... i had a pot of brigalow bottle cleaning powder which im pretty sure is caustic soda, so i thought i would give it a crack. I chucked it in there along with the other bits and pieces and left it for two days.... what a difference! No odour whatsoever! Im sold, the only downside is you have to be a bit more careful with it potentially dissolving your skin!

Cheers, Matt


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## Mr. No-Tip (4/2/15)

Skin...and eyes. That shit will turn your eyes to soap. Goggles and gloves for sure.


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## bonk1972 (19/2/15)

What a great debate well I think I got my answer i guess the smell and aroma cant be prevented in plastic and is suggest that it may or may not carry over to the next brew
I guess I will going as I am thanks


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## Eagleburger (19/2/15)

Looking forward to not have to buy aroma hops.


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## Cocko (19/2/15)

rude said:


> Well if youre dick goes into youre fermenter then disinfect it for sure


You cant make me.


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## Moad (19/2/15)

new world Cock Ale?


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## MaltyHops (20/2/15)

A Sour Lamdic.


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## Mr. No-Tip (20/2/15)

Still sounds preferable to a Flanders brown...


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## wynnum1 (20/2/15)

Mr. No-Tip said:


> Skin...and eyes. That shit will turn your eyes to soap. Goggles and gloves for sure.


The hospitality industry faces injuries every day. A simple trip on a mat can leave a person with a serious, debilitating injury for the rest of their life. Gavan's story is truly heart-breaking because it could have been prevented.

https://www.worksafe.qld.gov.au/forms-and-resources/campaigns/safety-advocates/changing-focus-the-gavan-mcguane-story?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=post&utm_content=Gavan&utm_campaign=WorkSafeQLD


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## S.E (20/2/15)

Matplat said:


> Then i remembered reading someone had said they use hot caustic and it came up fresh every time... i had a pot of brigalow bottle cleaning powder which im pretty sure is caustic soda, so i thought i would give it a crack. I chucked it in there along with the other bits and pieces and left it for two days.... what a difference! No odour whatsoever! Im sold, the only downside is you have to be a bit more careful with it potentially dissolving your skin!
> 
> Cheers, Matt


Hi Matt

I usually buy my caustic from IGA or Coles. It is sold as a drain cleaner/unblocker and heavy duty cleaner. IGA stock Diggers caustic and Coles stock Mechanix caustic. MeHome brew shops often stock it also, I have some from Keg King at the moment.

It can be hazardous if not handled carefully but any competent adult should be ok using it. There is of course always the risk of an accident but it’s no more dangerous than say petrol or gas can be if not used with care.

I have seen post in other threads stating caustic is not recommended or too dangerous for home brewers but I don’t see why.

The Diggers and Mechanix caustic is also advertised as perfect for making soap so are home brewers considered less competent than other hobbyists like soap makers or the housewives that buy it as a heavy duty cleaner?

All the caustic I have bought always states on the container that it must be dissolved in COLD water and this is very important as it will raise the temperature of the water considerably. If it is mixed in hot water it can erupt in your face.

I prefer to use it hot as it will clean a 60L fermenter in a few minutes with about 2L of water as opposed to filling it with over 60L cold water and leaving it overnight, so quicker and keeps the water bill down.

I used to mix a couple tbsp of caustic in about 200ml cold water then slowly top up the jug with boiling water. Now on brew days I use a stock pot so I add the caustic to 4L cold water and bring it to the boil with a jar and spoon submerged in it to clean for yeast collecting.

I use about 2L to clean 3 cubes then fill the cubes with beer from the fermenter for cask conditioned ale then carefully collect the clean yeast with the spoon and jar from top layer at the bottom of the fermenter.

I then clean the fermenter with the remaining caustic run the wort from the kettle through the counterflow chiller into the cleaned and sanitised fermenter, then aerate and add the freshly collected yeast.

As stated above I use cubes for cask conditioned real ale but if you use kegs you can build a simple CIP. Just turn the kegs upside down and pump hot caustic through the spear returning through the gas post.

Cheers Sean


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## stux (20/2/15)

Petrol won't instantly burn your eyes out and put holes in your skin.

I know professional brewers who are afraid of caustic... and that's probably a good thing


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## S.E (22/2/15)

Stux said:


> Petrol won't instantly burn your eyes out and put holes in your skin.
> 
> I know professional brewers who are afraid of caustic... and that's probably a good thing


Caustic won’t instantly burn your eyes out or put holes in your skin either. I regularly manage to splash caustic on my hands and arms as I’m too lazy to put on a rubber glove half the time, I just wash it off under the tap. I know one home brewer that splashed caustic in his eye with no harm, he does wear goggles when using it these days though.

Perhaps you are confusing caustic with napalm? Caustic is just a common heavy duty household cleaner, most oven cleaners contain caustic in fact. What do you use to clean your oven? You may well have been using caustic without realising it.

I’d be surprised if the pro brewers you know are actually afraid of caustic perhaps they should consider a career change if so. That’s like a carpenter being afraid of using a circular saw or an electrician that’s terrified of electricity.

Cheers


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## Mr. No-Tip (22/2/15)

Google image search "caustic soda injury". Why take the risk? 

This discussion reminds me about John Blichmann's brewery tips talk at ANHC - slides and audio here: http://anhc.com.au/index.php/program/program-archive

I think his mantra was "no shirt. No shoes. No brains", but how about "No Gloves. No Goggles. No brain."


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## S.E (22/2/15)

Mr. No-Tip said:


> Google image search "caustic soda injury". Why take the risk?
> 
> This discussion reminds me about John Blichmann's brewery tips talk at ANHC - slides and audio here: http://anhc.com.au/index.php/program/program-archive
> 
> I think his mantra was "no shirt. No shoes. No brains", but how about "No Gloves. No Goggles. No brain."


If you Google car crash you’ll find people are killed and maimed in car accidents every day so why did they take the risk driving?

Why do people risk cleaning their ovens and BBQs with caustic. Ill aask you the same question I asked in the post above. What do you use to clean your oven or BBQ, do you use a caustic spray like Easy Off Oven or Mr Muscle?

Why take the risk using Caustic you ask. Well if you read my previous post you’ll see that I find it is very fast and efficient. Saves me a lot of time and I don’t need to use excessive amounts of water soaking fermenters and cubes.

Some brewers are happy soaking fementers overnight in nappy san and that’s fine. Others may be interested in hearing pro brewers don’t do that and often use caustic.

Caustic is not as dangerous as you are making out. Do you really think it would be readily available and sold in supermarkets if it was? Yes it can be hazardous if not handled cautiously no one is denying that.


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## panzerd18 (22/2/15)

The stuff in the supermarket is normally only 33% pure. The drain cleaner in the tradesman's section in bunnings is 99% pure. 

Sodium hydroxide aka caustic soda is nasty shit. Please people be carful using it. It's good at cleaning because it's extremely powerful.

You wouldn't pour acid on your skin, do don't take the chance with its alkaline cousin sodium hydroxide.


"Tissue digestion
In a similar fashion, sodium hydroxide is used to digest tissues, such as in a process that was used with farm animals at one time. This process involved placing a carcass into a sealed chamber, then adding a mixture of sodium hydroxide and water (which breaks the chemical bonds that keep the flesh intact). This eventually turns the body into a liquid with coffee-like appearance,[17][18] and the only solid that remains are bone hulls, which could be crushed between one's fingertips.[19] Sodium hydroxide is frequently used in the process of decomposing roadkill dumped in landfills by animal disposal contractors.[18] Due to its low cost and availability, it has been used to dispose of corpses by criminals. Italian serial killer Leonarda Cianciulli used this chemical to turn dead bodies into soap.[20] In Mexico, a man who worked for drug cartels admitted disposing over 300 bodies with it.[21]"


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## S.E (22/2/15)

panzerd18 said:


> The stuff in the supermarket is normally only 33% pure. The drain cleaner in the tradesman's section in bunnings is 99% pure.
> 
> Sodium hydroxide aka caustic soda is nasty shit. Please people be carful using it. It's good at cleaning because it's extremely powerful.
> 
> ...


The Diggers and Mechanix caustic I referred to earlier (post 40) in the thread is 99% pure and available on the supermarket shelf in IGA and Coles. Agree with the rest of your post though.


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## S.E (22/2/15)

It also used for curing olives interestingly.


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## michaeld16 (22/2/15)

S.E said:


> I’d be surprised if the pro brewers you know are actually afraid of caustic perhaps they should consider a career change if so. That’s like a carpenter being afraid of using a circular saw or an electrician that’s terrified of electricity.
> 
> Cheers


Im a sparky and terrified of electricity, paying it the upmost respect helps keep me alive everyday.


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## Mr. No-Tip (22/2/15)

S.E said:


> Why take the risk using Caustic you ask. Well if you read my previous post you’ll see that I find it is very fast and efficient. Saves me a lot of time and I don’t need to use excessive amounts of water soaking fermenters and cubes.


No, I asked why you'd use it without gloves or goggles. I use it, with both. You're a walking Darwin Award if you don't. Kinda like driving without a seat belt. Those car crash images are even worse...


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## Judanero (22/2/15)

Has anyone used steam with one of those clean in place spray balls? While looking at ways to improve (make easier) my fermentor cleaning routine I thought this might work?

I use converted stainless 30L kegs to ferment in, usually a spray with the hose and wiping with a scourer cleans anything off and I still do a sodium perc soak followed by another pressure wash, but it's not the biggest opening to try and manoeuvre my hand and scourer into.


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## stux (23/2/15)

Was going to say, I knew a carpenter, was missing a finger, had a healthy respect for the table saw for some reason. My electrician is the same, I saw him go white as a ghost once when he found the earth wire in the roof was connected to nothing, it just pulled free. 

I pay a cleaner to clean the oven with caustic.


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## Eagleburger (23/2/15)

Also regarding sodium hydroxide, the stuff is very sticky when it comes to skin and eyeballs. If you get it in your eyes, keep rinsing for 20 minutes.


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## S.E (25/2/15)

michaeld16 said:


> Im a sparky and terrified of electricity, paying it the upmost respect helps keep me alive everyday.


I always have the utmost respect for electricity. I wasn’t suggesting electricians or any one should be complacent around electricity. I do find it a bit odd that a sparky would be terrified of electricity though. It must be very difficult for you if you’re actually terrified of it, why did you choose a career that would put you in fear of your life every working day?


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## S.E (25/2/15)

Stux said:


> Was going to say, I knew a carpenter, was missing a finger, had a healthy respect for the table saw for some reason. My electrician is the same, I saw him go white as a ghost once when he found the earth wire in the roof was connected to nothing, it just pulled free.
> 
> I pay a cleaner to clean the oven with caustic.


My high school wood work teacher always had a health respect for the bench saw. Every single time he needed to use it (we weren’t allowed to use it) he would gather the whole class around and demonstrate how to safely operate it. He would push a plank of wood through it but had a batten about 18” long (this was pre metric) that he used to push the end of the plank through with so his hands didn’t need to go near the blade. After he retired he would occasionally help out at his sons furniture factory and was over 80 when he lost fingers on a bench saw.

Just curious what was the earth wire in the roof supposed to be connected to? Was it a metal roof? The question of earthing NSW came up in another thread and it turned out that houses here aren’t earthed that extensively so just wondering why there would be an earth cable in the roof? Looking around this house I can only find the water main earthed where it enters the house.

I’m not a sparky but I’ve wired countless houses in the UK, the first thing the electricity board would check before connecting us up was the earth bonding. The water main and gas pipe must be earthed but also hot and cold pipes are cross bonded under baths, basins and kitchen sinks. If they are steel the kitchen sink is also earth bonded back to the pipes in case it has been isolated from them with a fibre washer and PTFE tape. In the bathroom any metal fixtures like heating radiators are earthed.

Reading back through my posts I can’t see what I said that would give the impression that I was advising anyone to be anything but carful when using caustic.
The point I was making was it is a very effective cleaner. It is my preferred cleaner and I have not noticed any smell carrying over from previous brews.


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## michaeld16 (25/2/15)

S.E said:


> I always have the utmost respect for electricity. I wasn’t suggesting electricians or any one should be complacent around electricity. I do find it a bit odd that a sparky would be terrified of electricity though. It must be very difficult for you if you’re actually terrified of it, why did you choose a career that would put you in fear of your life every working day?


I manage just fine thanks and my cautios aproach to it ensures me or my customers dont end up dead


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## stux (25/2/15)

The earth wire was supposed to be connected. It was just thrown into the roof cavity.


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## S.E (25/2/15)

Stux said:


> The earth wire was supposed to be connected. It was just thrown into the roof cavity.


But what was it supposed to be connected to, what had it pulled free from? Was it supposed to be earthing a metal roof, water tank or something?


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## TheWiggman (25/2/15)

Sorry to keep this OT but in the safety industry - believe it or not there is one - the biggest concept that gets people hung up is acceptable level of risk. By addressing a hazard and reducing a risk you can only reduce it so much until it becomes silly. If you want to be completely immune from harm, you remove the hazard (caustic, eletricity, drop bears etc.).
One man's acceptable level of risk is different to the next. I use gloves when I use oven cleaner (in the spray can) but not glasses. I wear earplugs when I mow the lawn but many others don't. We all assess risk differently and at the end of the days what's acceptable is up to the individual or business (which comprises individuals).
If S.E. doesn't want to wear glasses, great, he doesn't think there's enough risk of injury there to warrant it. I certainy wouldn't advocate not wearing glasses though when the worst outcome is blindness. But hey, I've used it without glasses not being wary of the risks.
Sparkies use voltage detection pens even though they're confident they've isolated the power - takes literally 2 seconds, and I'm certain has saved lives. Required not, acceptable effort to address the minimal risk yes (for most).

Caustic risks - not really worth arguing about whether you should wear protecton or not. Most people probably won't lose an eye cleaning their fermenters with it but you can be certain those that might won't be wearing goggles.


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## Matplat (25/2/15)

I once cleaned an oven using a spray can of Mr Muscle whatever oven cleaner... I didn't have any gloves or goggles and didn't have time to go get some so I cleaned it bare handed, naked eyed (is that even a term?).

My hands would have been soaked in oven cleaner for a good 20 mins, albeit with intermittent rinsing.

After I finished my hands felt kinda slimy when wet then a bit tacky when dry.

It isn't something I would repeat given the option, but the consequences were nowhere near as bad as they can be made out. I think dissolving a corpse would take some extreme caustic concentrations and a reasonable amount of time.

There are many instances where extreme safety measures are appropriate (e.g. mining), but sometimes safety tends to get blown out of proportion a bit by companies having to cover their arse from law suits.

Like the Wiggman says, it is up to the individual to assess and mitigate risk for themselves, but I think that the individuals perceived level of risk has been perverted by the arse covering culture we have created for ourselves.

Cheers, Matt


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## stux (25/2/15)

S.E said:


> But what was it supposed to be connected to, what had it pulled free from? Was it supposed to be earthing a metal roof, water tank or something?


I'm not an electrician, but my understanding is there is supposed to be an earth circuit which runs back to the electrical cabinet, which is then connected to the earth stake.

The earth circuit would normally be carried as a 3rd wire in the 3 wire electrical wire used to connect stuff up.

In this case, the earth wire... was not connected to anything. it had not come free. It was simply never connected in the first place. Someone installing the fan took a few metres of loose earth wire, and pushed it up into the ceiling cavity. This means when you pulled the fan down, you could see the active, neutral and earth wires were all present, and the look like they were going into the cieling and doing there job... but if you pulled on the earth wire... it would just keep on coming, until you've removed the whole earth wire from the ceiling, and it wasn't connected.

Hence it wasn't earthed. When the wire fell out of the ceiling, is when the well experienced electrician went white.

Anyway, the electrician ran a new earth wire and connected it, and then checked the other fans, and found a couple more connected in the same way... ie... not.

Its worse to make it look properly connected, and not be, than to be obviously not connected.


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## Mr B (25/2/15)

Off topic, but fascinating


An ex farmer neighbor a couple of houses up from where I grew up was missing a few fingers.

A total of four on both hands.

The loss was apparently due to combine harvester machinery, but the kicker was - it was on three separate occasions................

Still interesting 30 years later


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