# Going Nitrogen



## Tony (28/4/12)

OK....... the decision is made....... I'm getting a nitrogen bottle and a stout tap to have home brewed stout and best bitter on tap with that awesome pour 

Now, im wondering if anyone has already got this running and what gear they run. 

Im talking regulators, gas bottle (beer gas or pure nitrogen?) 

All my family and a lot of friends love a Guinness at the pub but say its not as good as it used to be. I agree!

Challenge accepted 

cheers


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## itmechanic (28/4/12)

Tony said:


> OK....... the decision is made....... I'm getting a nitrogen bottle and a stout tap to have home brewed stout and best bitter on tap with that awesome pour
> 
> Now, im wondering if anyone has already got this running and what gear they run.
> 
> ...




Ive got it at home for bitters, stouts and sometimes my irish red.
I carb really low with just co2, then dispense at high pressure using 70/30 beergas through the stout tap. Works great. I despense at 40psi and had to add a fair bit of line to slow the pour down a bit, you get a fair bit of restriction with the stout tap anyway, but i still needed more.

Cheers


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## Tony (28/4/12)

Thats exactly what i was thinking of doing.

What Reg are you using? and how much beer line at what size do you need?

cheers


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## Tony (28/4/12)

I have been looking for info on the BOC range of beer gas..... or Multigas as i have been informed its galled now........ and cant find a single scrap of info on it online ???????

Im after info on what sort of fitting the bottles from BOC need........ will one of these fit?

http://morebeer.com/view_product/16198/bee...or_-_Dual_Gauge

I also cant find an aussie retailer with these nitrogen regs on their sites... for obvious reasons.


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## itmechanic (28/4/12)

The beergas just uses a normal co2 reg.
Im using 6 meters of 5mm ID line.

Just had a quick look and i cant find anything on the BOC gas blends either, Cellarmix i think BOC call it, i use Supamix30 from Supagas


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## Tony (28/4/12)

thanks for your help mate


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## Sully (28/4/12)

Tony, will PM you tomorrow with all the details when I can get to the shed. BOC sell it but cannot remember the details or codes, but it is 70% Nitrogen and 30% Co2 mix. They sell it in a cylinder a bit larger than the MKOL 6.0Kg Bottles. I think its VT size (??). Supagas also sell it. My cylinder definitely uses a Nitrogen reg.


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## Tony (28/4/12)

Cheers Sully..... thats what im after..... BOC 70% nitrogen

any info would be great

Thanks


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## Sully (28/4/12)

The code is Multimix 0037VT, but according to BOC website they only now supply it in an F size. Something you may have to confirm as I have had my cylinder going on 5 years now. Its not a very commonly sold gas, I rang 4 different BOC agents and all of them had nfi about the mix, kept trying to sell me Cellarmix. Had to go direct to BOC G&G to eventually track it down, even then it was the main distribution outlet.


Quote - 
0037 - 30% CO2 in a balance of Nitrogen. It is largely used for dispensing bulk Stout for Guinness. It may also be recommended for other brewers that require 30% of CO2.


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## poppa joe (28/4/12)

My Stout regulator has a Male Fitting similiar to a gas bottle 
Hope that helps..It came from a Pub..
Cheers
PJ


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## Tony (28/4/12)

found this from BOC UK

they call it suremix

http://www.boconline.co.uk/products/produc...itrogen_mix.asp


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## Bribie G (29/4/12)

Ross has the setup on one of his kegerators at Bacchus. I quizzed him about it, he just uses a normal reg and you need to have proper stout taps. Whilst nitrogen is great with stouts and UK "creamflow" ales I can't see it would be at all useful for lagers, as well as "traditional" American APAs turning out a bit weird. I take it you would also be running a CO2 setup in parallel.


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## Spinniker (29/4/12)

Try this place. This is where I got my Co2 from and the guy was very helpful. Had quite a few "beer gas" bottles in the shed when I picked my bottle up. Best price I could find locally as well for Co2. Has a few different mixes:

Beer Gas - Speed Mix 55 (55% CO2 - 45% Nitrogen) Suits most Sites 
Beer Gas - Speed Mix 30 (30% CO2 - 70% Nitrogen) Generally used to pour those thicker beers such as Guinness 
Beer Gas - Speed Mix 40 (40% CO2 - 60% Nitrogen) For less carbonation 
Beer Gas - Speed Mix 75 (75% CO2 - 25% Nitrogen) For more carbonation in long beer line runs 

http://www.speedgas.com.au/mixed_beverage_gas.html


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## Tony (29/4/12)

Bribie G said:


> Ross has the setup on one of his kegerators at Bacchus. I quizzed him about it, he just uses a normal reg and you need to have proper stout taps. Whilst nitrogen is great with stouts and UK "creamflow" ales I can't see it would be at all useful for lagers, as well as "traditional" American APAs turning out a bit weird. I take it you would also be running a CO2 setup in parallel.



Yeah BG I will run a dual setup, with Co2 for the usual suspects and dedicate a tap to nitrogen poured stout and bitter. Plan to have a corny of stout and Best Bitter in the kegorator side by side so i can just switch the line over as i please.

Mmmmmm I can see this growing into a bigger chest freezer and more taps 



Spinniker said:


> Try this place. This is where I got my Co2 from and the guy was very helpful. Had quite a few "beer gas" bottles in the shed when I picked my bottle up. Best price I could find locally as well for Co2. Has a few different mixes:
> 
> Beer Gas - Speed Mix 55 (55% CO2 - 45% Nitrogen) Suits most Sites
> Beer Gas - Speed Mix 30 (30% CO2 - 70% Nitrogen) Generally used to pour those thicker beers such as Guinness
> ...



Cool..... the 30/70 mix is what im after. I will call BOC on Monday first casue my local BOC is only 1Km away..... thats an hour drive  but good to know i can get it from there if needed.

cheers


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## Logman (29/4/12)

Hey Tony,
I use *Elgas/Stargas Cellarmix*, cost around $130 for a 9kg (I think) bottle including rent. It was meant to be about $170 but he gave me a couple of discounts because I was a homebrewer. He was kind of amazed that people had all this gear at home  

I use a Harris Co2 regulator - purchased the *adaptor here.* It's fine to use a Co2 reg as long as the quality is decent apparently.

After kegging I roll the keg on the ground hooked up for around 30 seconds to a minute to get some Co2 into it - if it's not enough then just leave it on Co2 serving pressure overnight. I put Scottish Ale, Stout and Porter on it, wouldn't do without it for sure :icon_drunk:


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## Bribie G (29/4/12)

What's a stout tap worth?


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## Logman (29/4/12)

$140 from Ross and then you have to buy a shank - never really looked around for prices. Been really happy with it and am going to get another. They have second hand Guinness ones on EvilBay all the time that are about 40 US plus 45 post - no shank.


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## Sully (29/4/12)

Logman said:


> $140 from Ross and then you have to buy a shank - never really looked around for prices. Been really happy with it and am going to get another. They have second hand Guinness ones on EvilBay all the time that are about 40 US plus 45 post - no shank.







See Greg at Andale in Coorparoo, should pick up a fully re-kitted s/h unit for ~$60.


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## stux (29/4/12)

Bribie G said:


> What's a stout tap worth?



What's a stout tap?

No really, what is the difference between it and a normal tap?


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## Logman (29/4/12)




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## Tony (29/4/12)

Logman said:


> Hey Tony,
> I use *Elgas/Stargas Cellarmix*, cost around $130 for a 9kg (I think) bottle including rent. It was meant to be about $170 but he gave me a couple of discounts because I was a homebrewer. He was kind of amazed that people had all this gear at home
> 
> I use a Harris Co2 regulator - purchased the *adaptor here.* It's fine to use a Co2 reg as long as the quality is decent apparently.



Great info there, but after having a look on the elgas site it says this:

Elgas Stargas currently available in metropolitan areas of Melbourne, Sydney and Gold Coast only



Stux said:


> What's a stout tap?
> 
> No really, what is the difference between it and a normal tap?



The stout tap has a creamer plate in it to foam the small amount of gas in solution and give you that classic guinness look in the beer. You use the nitrogen.Co2 mix to stop too much Co2 going into solution. So you can use a high pressure to serve but not have the beer carb up too much.

cheers


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## Tony (29/4/12)

I like the idea of using a CO2 reg with the adapter but i read that the Nitrohen bottles have a higher internal pressure and the propper nitrogen regs come with higher pressure rated guages etc ???

These are in the USA and seem to have a male thread as aposed to the female thread on that adaptop your using Logman.

http://morebeer.com/view_product/16198//Ni...or_-_Dual_Gauge


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## Logman (29/4/12)

Tony said:


> I like the idea of using a CO2 reg with the adapter but i read that the Nitrohen bottles have a higher internal pressure and the propper nitrogen regs come with higher pressure rated guages etc ???


There are other circumstances I believe because you're using Cellarmix rather than a full Nitrogen mix so you can use a Co2 reg up to a certain pressure - plenty for a beer setup. It's been a while since I set it up and can't quite remember if that's the exact reason but Ross had two Co2 regs at CB at the time on his Nitro rig.


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## Tony (29/4/12)

cool..... that will make it simple too.

Thanks for your help mate


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## Bribie G (29/4/12)

I understand the main difference between a regular tap and a stout tap is that with the latter you can do a perfect shamrock or a Guinness happy face in the foam like the guys do at our RSL :icon_cheers: .


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## Ross (29/4/12)

Tony,

You can equally use a CO2 reg or nitrogen reg, but they have different threads, so you are really governed by what the bottle has that they supply you with (unless you use an adaptor).
We sell both regs, just not up on the site. give me a call if you ewant to discuss.

Cheers Ross


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## wynnum1 (29/4/12)

http://www.liquidnitrogenservices.com.au/index.htm that nitrogen is used in food processing industry .


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## Tony (29/4/12)

Ross said:


> Tony,
> 
> You can equally use a CO2 reg or nitrogen reg, but they have different threads, so you are really governed by what the bottle has that they supply you with (unless you use an adaptor).
> We sell both regs, just not up on the site. give me a call if you ewant to discuss.
> ...



Thanks Ross......will do. Will find out what bottle is available and will go from there

cheers


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## Bribie G (29/4/12)

wynnum1 said:


> http://www.liquidnitrogenservices.com.au/index.htm that nitrogen is used in food processing industry .


Pure nitrogen is not used for beer. It's a mix of nitrogen and CO2 - as well as being used to produce fine bubbles in beer (same thing that happens to your blood if you dive too deep and surface too quickly) it's used in modern hotel setups where they have a central cold room and the beer has to travel long distances to "satellite" bars. The nitrogen pushes the beer and the CO2 gives it bubbles. If you used pure CO2 to push the beer long distances it would end up overcarbed. 

for home usage a mix of 70% nitro and 30% CO2 gives the desired creamy foam as the Nitrogen and CO2 comes out of solution. Nitro gives most of the creamy foam, CO2 gives the sparkle on the tongue.


Fcukk.........I gotta get one :icon_drool2:


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## Logman (29/4/12)

The biggest problem is the calories!! Not joking either :lol: If you don't watch out you can end up piling the weight on pretty quick, I put on 10kgs straight away and had to work it off :icon_drunk:


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## Bribie G (29/4/12)

Checked out Ross's Nitro setup today and a glass of Irish Red and one of a Guinness lookalike nailed it totally. :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2: 

Briefly, if you go BOC you'll need to get the nitro reg, but if you can get your own cylinder threaded same as normal you can go "normal" reg. 

A stout tap will fit directly onto a 1/2/3 tap tower font. 

Apart from gas and cylinder costs it's going to cost me about $250 to get into nitro. I'll do one tap on nitro and 2 on CO2.  

As it happens Juliar is going to stimulate me with $250 in a couple of weeks to offset the carbon tax so I'll offset my CO2 usage with nitrogen. Sounds like a deal. B)


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## itmechanic (29/4/12)

Funny, i used a BOC 70/30 bottle at a festival recently with my standard Co2 reg, same connection, likewise with the bottles i get from Supagas, maybe you can get the bottles with both fittings.


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## Bribie G (10/5/12)

Anyone know what the price diff is between a normal reg and a nitro one?


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## Ross (10/5/12)

Nitro reg = $179 from CraftBrewer.

Cheers Ross


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## glenwal (10/5/12)

Bribie G said:


> Anyone know what the price diff is between a normal reg and a nitro one?



I believe the CO2/nitrogen mix bottles have the same thread as CO2 and the regs are the same (I remember reading in the book for my Micromatic reg that it was suitable for nitrogen - will double check when I get home). Its just the pure Nitrogen bottles that have a different thread.


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## glenwal (10/5/12)

Ok - i had it backwards. According to http://www.gascon.com.au/content/products/...ry_AS2473.3.pdf, CO2 and Nitrous oxide share the same thread (type 30), and Nitrogen and Co2/Nitrogen mixes share a thread (type 50).


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## Tony (14/5/12)

poppa joe said:


> My Stout regulator has a Male Fitting similiar to a gas bottle
> Hope that helps..It came from a Pub..
> Cheers
> PJ






itmechanic said:


> Funny, i used a BOC 70/30 bottle at a festival recently with my standard Co2 reg, same connection, likewise with the bottles i get from Supagas, maybe you can get the bottles with both fittings.




I made some phone calls to BOC and after some repeating of the line "70/30....... no not 60/40.... i want 70/30" and convincing of the lady on the phone that i "make my own beer" and she went...... OOOOOOOoooooooooooo you want food grade nitrogen.

Ummmm.... yeah!

She told me i could get it in a 10Kg bottle code 073 and i would need a proper nitrgen regulator.

I have phoned my local BOC distributor and given them the code and told them i want a bottle on my existing account, they sounded a tad confused so should be interesting to see what i get 

I will wait till i get the bottle and sort out regulators and adaptors as needed to suit what i get.

might do some brewing on the weekend and cube up some stout in reediness 



My dad said....... If you get guinness on tap, I'm moving into your garage


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## bigben (15/5/12)

log man marty is a good bloke

stargas is a very good option with very good pricing. they are located in melbourne sydney and the gold coast if your interested call 1800 782 742 and ask for big ben happy to help out


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## Tony (15/5/12)

well... i don't live in Melbourne, Sydney or the gold coast so i will go with the BOC dealer a couple of K's down the road.

plus i already have a BOC account.

It will have to be a good deal, cause if i need to drive for half a day to get a refill, i would want a carton of westy 12 to bring home with the gas bottle


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## Logman (16/5/12)

> log man marty is a good bloke


Yeah he is a good guy, he said he was happy to give a good deal to anyone on the Gold Coast if they mentioned they were a homebrewer. He thought the level of debauchery was awesome and laughed at how we do bulk buys etc.


Great that you and Bribie are getting these Tony, will be awesome to be able to discuss Nitro - it's the favorite part of brewing for me. Will warn again though, keep your eyes on that beer gut :icon_drunk:


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## Tony (29/5/12)

Logman said:


> Great that you and Bribie are getting these Tony, will be awesome to be able to discuss Nitro - it's the favorite part of brewing for me. Will warn again though, keep your eyes on that beer gut :icon_drunk:



hahaha the eyes on the beer gut hey............. every time i crack a new keg i put on a kilo going..... Oooooo Ahhhhh and then lose it as i realize I'm drinking it too fast and revert to salad and "just a few" 

Now......... some serious talk!

I have hit a snag and one i want to let anyone looking at getting into this know about cause its not something you think about till you go....... "OH [email protected]$K IT!...... YOU ARE F#%KING KIDDING ME" at the top of your voice and the spanner goes flying across the room hitting the wall very hard!, and your wife and kids come running to see the blood and leave disappointed 

I removed the stock nitrogen shaft that fits to the bottle, that came fitted to the regulator, and tried to fit the adapter i purchased from PMC Gas Control. The bottle end fitting is perfect but the 1/4 BSP thread is not!

The adapter shaft has a normal RH 1/4 BSP thread but the regulator High Pressure side port is a LH 1/4 BSP thread.

SHIT!

I checked my Micro Matic Co2 Reg and its a LH 1/4 BSP thread as well.

Sooooo the adapter don't fit the regulator...... but aparently it fits in a Harris reg...... they must have a RH thread on the high Pressure port side 

I made a phone call to PMC and they said they will look at making me a LH threaded version of the adapter.... they will get back to me tomorrow.

Pics:

Origional on top....... replacement adapter to fit the BOC 073 VT bottle.... bottom







Origional right..... replacement adapter, left






here you can see the difference between the RH and LH thread






and the kick in the guts came when i read this:


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## dmac80 (29/5/12)

If you get stuck mate i can make an adapter in the lathe, for a price of course.


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## Tony (29/5/12)

dmac said:


> for a price of course.



Dude...... i know where you live


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## dmac80 (29/5/12)

Tony said:


> Dude...... i know where you live



Then you know where to bring the beer...


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## Tony (29/5/12)

ha....... you know where where it will be on tap


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## Bribie G (29/5/12)

lathe bulk buy?


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## Tony (29/5/12)

no need old mate......... Baldrick has a cunning plan


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## bigfridge (29/5/12)

dmac said:


> If you get stuck mate i can make an adapter in the lathe, for a price of course.



Hi Tony,

I think that you need to be a little carefull mate when playing with these gases as there are different pressures involved.


CO2 is liquid and boils off into the gas at around 600 PSI at room temperature. Nitrogen remains as a gas in the cylinder and is at a much higher pressure. I am not sure what the tank pressure is off the top of my head, but it is similar to Oxygen which is around 3000 psi.

This is why I beleive that the regs all have different threads and fittings.


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## Logman (30/5/12)

Well that sux! Mines a BOC too but the adaptor went into the reg a different way - I took a look and it seems they are all right hand though, gauges etc.

It's worth the wait mate! :icon_drool2:


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## Tony (30/5/12)

Hi Dave..... thanks for your concern.

Im aware of the higher pressures, thats why i got a propper nitrogen regulator, and the adapter is being made by a regulator company so it should be fine.

They are making me a new adapter with LH thread today so should have it before the weekend 

The adaprer is actually much thicker construstion than the origional unit that cam off the regulator.

now all i need is stout


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## Bribie G (30/5/12)

Ah stout.... I checked my FES today in primary (been sitting at 18 for about 10 days now) and it had developed the dreaded chalky film  Should have been less lazy and whacked it into the -1 fridge. 
Tasted fine so I bottled it instead of kegging to be on the safe side, discarded the last few litres - hopefully it's an aerobic mould or whatever that hasn't penetrated into the beer. 

Now I'll have to brew up a quick Tetleys so I can do some smoothflow when I get my own kit assembled


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## dent (30/5/12)

So these nitrogen mix bottles are not liquefied? That would mean you would end up with much less gas in the same size bottle compared to 100% CO2 if that is the case.

How does the actual "nitrogening" process work with this? Does simply keeping the (previously CO2 carbed) keg under high (?) pressure N/CO2 mix dissolve enough N in there?


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## Ross (30/5/12)

Tony said:


> Hi Dave..... thanks for your concern.
> 
> Im aware of the higher pressures, thats why i got a propper nitrogen regulator, and the adapter is being made by a regulator company so it should be fine.
> 
> ...



Tony, if you've bought a proper nitrogen reg, why do you need an adaptor? it should screw straight on.
Dave, A regular CO2 regulator works fine with the cellar mix, as long as compatable threads.


cheers Ross


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## Bribie G (30/5/12)

While I've got the egg spurts on line B) - a couple of questions I haven't had a definitive answer to:

Say you have a corny of Guinness lookalike. Do you need to pre-carb it on CO2 before putting it on Nitro, or does the much higher pressure of the 70/30 Cellar gas mixture ensure that enough CO2 is pushed into the beer in the keg anyway, so can you just put the keg of flat beer onto nitro from the beginning and it fizzes up?

What is the effect of pouring a lager on nitro through a regular tap such as a perlick. (as opposed to a stout tap) Not interested in a creamy head with shamrock design lovingly laid into the foam, just getting it into the glass.


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## Ross (30/5/12)

Bribie G said:


> While I've got the egg spurts on line B) - a couple of questions I haven't had a definitive answer to:
> 
> Say you have a corny of Guinness lookalike. Do you need to pre-carb it on CO2 before putting it on Nitro, or does the much higher pressure of the 70/30 Cellar gas mixture ensure that enough CO2 is pushed into the beer in the keg anyway, so can you just put the keg of flat beer onto nitro from the beginning and it fizzes up?
> 
> What is the effect of pouring a lager on nitro through a regular tap such as a perlick. (as opposed to a stout tap) Not interested in a creamy head with shamrock design lovingly laid into the foam, just getting it into the glass.



Beer must be pregassed with CO2 a l;ittle under your regular carb level. Rock for 20 secs at 300kpa should put you on the money. The more you pre carb it the more foam & the longer it will take to settle in the glass - adjust to your preference.
The beers are then poured at 200kpa through the stout tap. Smooth pour lagers are quite popular now in the UK, as they are easier to drink being less carbed. If you pour at 200kpa with a regular tap you'll be wearing it - LOL.

cheers Ross


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## Tony (18/8/12)

Hey folks.

I posted these pics in Whats in the glass.......... but i feel they should go here too for histofial purpose, and i want to keep this thread going with development and fine tuning of the nitro pour system.

I had 17L of 6% ESB sitting on primary in a fridge at 4 deg c. Used 1469 so it was bombed out clear.

Dumped it in a keg, hooked up the nitro bottle @ 150kpa and shook it for about a minute.... untill it stopped taking on gas.

hooked up the lines, and the tap, and poured this:


























Yep...... it works 

happy man i am!


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## Bribie G (18/8/12)

mmmm nitrooogen

Needless to say I'll be annoying the shyte out of you when I move just to the North of you in a couple of months B)


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## Tony (18/8/12)

Bribie G said:


> mmmm nitrooogen
> 
> Needless to say I'll be annoying the shyte out of you when I move just to the North of you in a couple of months B)



Always welcome for a beer mate!

PM me some details!


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## MattC (21/3/13)

OK, I’ve had a read of this thread and I’m thinking of giving
this Nitro thing a go but just want to clarify a few things first.

The BOC product I’m after is called multimix, product code
037 (70% N and 30% CO2). The VT cylinder has a type 50 attachment which is
compatible with CO2 regs if you fit an adaptor from PMC? Anywhere else supply these adapters?

If I get a Harris reg, the adapter (RH thread) will fit
fine, but if I get a Micromatic reg, I will have to order a custom build
adaptor with LH thread?

Also you carb the beer normally with CO2 then dispense with
multimix at approx 200kpa with a stout tap. I thought I read that Tony carbed
with the multimix itself, if this is so and you can carb with either multimix
or CO2, what differences could I expect? I’m guessing if just dispensing with
the multimix, then it would last for ages.


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## Logman (21/3/13)

MattC said:


> Also you carb the beer normally with CO2 then dispense with
> 
> multimix at approx 200kpa with a stout tap. I thought I read that Tony carbed
> with the multimix itself, if this is so and you can carb with either multimix
> ...


Take a look at *this thread*. I posted a month or two back about the head increasing in size as the keg was being consumed - a few guys replied with the same issue. Originally I rolled the keg on the ground for 30 seconds with Co2 and then left it to age and hooked it straight onto the nitro and drank. One of the guys (who sounded like he works in a bar) suggested just hooking it up to Nitro and leaving it (no Co2). Since then, I do no rolling around and just shoot some Nitro into the keg to bleed the oxygen and leave it to age, then hook it straight to the Nitro in the keezer and leave it to balance a few days - works much better and have had no issues since.

I think Tony would know for sure about the reg as he had a lot of stuffing about IIRC so PM him if he misses the thread.


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## skb (14/7/14)

A very old thread ,.. but fingers crossed you guys are sill around and posting. I want to go Nitro and have read the threads, I see the Multimix (30/70) seemed to be the good starting point but then concerned about the increase CO2 intake over time due to high pressure, and then on a side thread a discussion around maybe carbing with the CO2 and then dispensing with pure nitrogen (and I see that morebeer.com in the US seems to use this method). I assume this method has the other disadvantage of the beer becoming flat over time. 

What is the final view, in my case I will probably take 2-3 months to go through a keg of stout so it will be on for a while ? Tony love the photos and that is what I want from my homebrew


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## Tony (21/7/14)

Hey mate

I think the idea behind the 30/70 mix is that it has the right amount of Co2 in it to carb to the correct level at the higher pressure required to serve.

I used to filter cold into the keg, then apply serving pressure and shake, the same as i did with 100% Co2 beers, and they worked out fine.

If the keg will sit for a while and your worried about further absorbtion of Co2, put an isolation tap on the gas line going to the keg and just turn it on to pour a pint, and then back off again.

Easy!


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## Ross (22/7/14)

SKB, 

Pour at 200kpa & the beer will be fine - It will not over gas in time. the nitrogen mix stops this happening.


Cheers Ross


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## skb (23/7/14)

Thanks Ross and tony ... Next step financial approval from wife, that's the hard step


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## dannymars (13/3/15)

Anyone know if you can get smaller cylinders than "F"?

I have a 2.6 kilo CO2 bottle in my keezer, and don't really want to have to run a massive bottle outside the keezer for the sake of one tap. There's room in there for one more gas bottle of the same size I've already got.


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## Murdoch (15/3/15)

I saw VT sized 70/30 nitro/Co2 mix (I think it was a BOC bottle) at the AIBA`s in 2013 although I could only get F sized bottles in Qld


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## Seeker (16/3/15)

Just stumbled over this thread and I'm changing my plans - have been stuffing around with a beer engine, and it's just too hard to get right, so this seems perfect.

So full list of parts required from scratch is;

Drilled fridge $100
Mix gas bottle $170 pa
Gas & beer lines $30
Line connectors $50
Stout tap $140
Tap shank $45
Keg $70

So around $650 assuming no equipment.


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## Bribie G (16/3/15)

Don't forget a nitro regulator as well, about $90.


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## kegs23 (16/3/15)

i got my bottle (same size as a 6.8kg co2 bottle) but nitrogen 70/30 blend from speed gas in brisbane $320 out right for bottle (no on going fees),he brings a exchange bottle with him when yours is empty and delivers it to your house or work,
i am still on my 1st bottle,done 3x19l kegs so far,


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## Seeker (16/3/15)

So full list of parts required from scratch is;

Drilled fridge $100
Mix gas bottle $170 pa
Gas & beer lines $30
Line connectors $50
Stout tap $140
Tap shank $45
Keg $70
Regulator $90

Total apprx = $695

Getting a bit steep!


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## Seeker (16/3/15)

Is a Harris 601 CO2 reg suitable?


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## DJ_L3ThAL (16/3/15)

All CO2 regs are suitable for nitrogen use, you just need a fitting to match the type 50 nitrogen coupling on the nitrogen bottle.


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## danestead (16/3/15)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> All CO2 regs are suitable for nitrogen use, you just need a fitting to match the type 50 nitrogen coupling on the nitrogen bottle.


As long as they are capable of 2000psi

Edit: corrected psi


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## DJ_L3ThAL (17/3/15)

Ahh your right, forgot that N2 is at a much higher pressure. Thanks.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (17/3/15)

Seeker said:


> So full list of parts required from scratch is;
> 
> Drilled fridge $100
> Mix gas bottle $170 pa
> ...


To be fair you'd also have a kegerator for normal beers.....


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## Black n Tan (9/4/15)

I am setting up a nitrogen system for dispensing stout and english creamy ales. I have a stout tap (Krone brand), supamix (70:30 N2:CO2) gas bottle and nitrogen reg. I am going to keg by dry stout and Irish red ale tomorrow, but have a few questions.

It would seem that the stout should be served at 1.2 CO2 volumes. Is this correct? Does anyone have a recommendation for CO2 volumes for an Irish red ale dispensed on nitrogen? Same as the stout? Anyway I planned to hook the kegs up to straight CO2 in my lagering fridge for a few days before putting it on the nitrogen system for dispensing. However carbonation calculators tell me I need negative pressure to get to 1.2 volumes CO2 i.e. I assume this means that residual CO2 from fermentation is greater than 1.2 vols of CO2 (I rested the stout at 23C for a few days). So what should I do? Should I just give it a burst of 200kPa Supamix and than lager? I see the earlier recommendation are to dispense at 200kPa. My dispensing fridge is currently set to 4C (I know it is a little cool for stout, but it has other beers in it, I guess I could increase it to 6C) which means that at 200kPa 70:30 mix will give me about 2.2 volumes of CO2. The advice for 1.2 volumes of CO2, but a dispense pressure of 200kPa seems incongruous. So what is the correct CO2 volume for a guinness style stout served on nitro?

Another question, is about balancing my lines. Does anyone have a starting recommendation for the length of 5mm ID line?


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## danestead (10/4/15)

&amp;nbsp;


Black n Tan said:


> I am setting up a nitrogen system for dispensing stout and english creamy ales. I have a stout tap (Krone brand), supamix (70:30 N2:CO2) gas bottle and nitrogen reg. I am going to keg by dry stout and Irish red ale tomorrow, but have a few questions.
> &amp;nbsp;
> It would seem that the stout should be served at 1.2 CO2 volumes. Is this correct? Does anyone have a recommendation for CO2 volumes for an Irish red ale dispensed on nitrogen? Same as the stout? Anyway I planned to hook the kegs up to straight CO2 in my lagering fridge for a few days before putting it on the nitrogen system for dispensing. However carbonation calculators tell me I need negative pressure to get to 1.2 volumes CO2 i.e. I assume this means that residual CO2 from fermentation is greater than 1.2 vols of CO2 (I rested the stout at 23C for a few days). So what should I do? Should I just give it a burst of 200kPa Supamix and than lager? I see the earlier recommendation are to dispense at 200kPa. My dispensing fridge is currently set to 4C (I know it is a little cool for stout, but it has other beers in it, I guess I could increase it to 6C) which means that at 200kPa 70:30 mix will give me about 2.2 volumes of CO2. The advice for 1.2 volumes of CO2, but a dispense pressure of 200kPa seems incongruous. So what is the correct CO2 volume for a guinness style stout served on nitro?
> &amp;nbsp;
> Another question, is about balancing my lines. Does anyone have a starting recommendation for the length of 5mm ID line?


G'day mate,

I use the same length line on my nitro tap as I do on my CO2 beers. As for carbing it with CO2 before hooking it up to the nitrogen, you could hook up the CO2 at 45psi and shake the keg for 5 or 10 seconds and once it's settled down from all the shaking (half hour) you could hook it up to the Nitrogen pour a glass and see if that was enough. Personally, I just hook it up to the nitrogen at 30psi (30psi is the serving pressure you want for a 70:30 type mix) and wait a week or so to slowly carb itself up but I know it can be tempting to have a beer the day you keg it!


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## Black n Tan (10/4/15)

Thanks for the response. 30psi nitro mix would give 9psi CO2, so I may just give it a few days on CO2 somewhere south of 9psi and see how it goes. Cheers Grant


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## danestead (10/4/15)

Black n Tan said:


> Thanks for the response. 30psi nitro mix would give 9psi CO2, so I may just give it a few days on CO2 somewhere south of 9psi and see how it goes. Cheers Grant


Hmmmm, don't let me stop you however I don't think it is as easy at multiplying the 30psi by 30% (your CO2 content). It just doesn't sound right at all. 9 psi on straight CO2 at about 4 degrees will give you about 2.25 volumes of CO2. Far more than you want when you will be pouring it through a nitro tap with a restrictor disk. I am pretty certain that will end up in a glass of head. As I said, don't let me stop you however I'd tread very carefully and I wouldn't be leaving it sit at 9 psi for more than a couple of days.


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## Black n Tan (10/4/15)

danestead said:


> Hmmmm, don't let me stop you however I don't think it is as easy at multiplying the 30psi by 30% (your CO2 content). It just doesn't sound right at all. 9 psi on straight CO2 at about 4 degrees will give you about 2.25 volumes of CO2. Far more than you want when you will be pouring it through a nitro tap with a restrictor disk. I am pretty certain that will end up in a glass of head. As I said, don't let me stop you however I'd tread very carefully and I wouldn't be leaving it sit at 9 psi for more than a couple of days.


That is exactly my concern as you will see in post 76. I am not really comfortable setting my CO2 reg to 9psi (may even 12 psi, see below), but this is what I calculate 30spi of mixed gas would supply. Let me explain, Dalton's law states that the total pressure of a mixture of gases is equal to the sum of the partial pressures of the individual gases in the mixture and the partial pressure is directly relate to the number of mols of the gas. Now if I assume the 70:30 (N2:CO2) supamix gas is based on weight (not mols) then it is 60:40 on a molar basis. This would suggest at a 30psi supagas mix will provide a C02 partial pressure of 12 psi (which is even worse) and N2 partial pressure of 18 psi. This is my concern that setting the reg at 30psi for the supagas mix will over carbonate my stout. I am more than happy for a geek to explain if I have calculated this wrongly.


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## danestead (10/4/15)

&nbsp;


Black n Tan said:


> That is exactly my concern &nbsp;as you will see in post 76. I am not really comfortable setting my CO2 reg to 9psi (may even 12 psi, see below), but this is what I calculate 30spi of mixed gas would supply. Let me explain, Dalton's law states that the total pressure of a mixture of gases is equal to the sum of the partial pressures of the individual gases in the mixture and the partial pressure is directly relate to the number of mols of the gas. Now if I assume the 70:30 (N2:CO2)&nbsp;supamix gas is based on weight (not mols) then it is 60:40 on a molar basis. This would suggest at a 30psi supagas mix will provide a C02 partial pressure of 12 psi (which is even worse) and N2 partial pressure of 18 psi. This is my concern that setting the reg at 30psi for the supagas mix will over carbonate my stout. I am more than happy for a geek to explain if I have calculated this wrongly.



Ok I can see your concern now although the chemistry is above my level.

My stout has been sitting at 30 psi for a couple of months and has been pouring fine for that period of time. Whether it is carbing up slowly, more and more every day, I don't know but it hasn't been noticeable.

Send Ross from Craftbrewer a message. He sells Nitro regs so may have a better idea. In the mean time, set your reg to 30 psi and drink it!


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## Black n Tan (10/4/15)

Cheers mate, will do


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## Bribie G (10/4/15)

Nitro gas mix is supplied for serving beers that are generally filtered and pasteurised and therefore completely stable.
In our case another factor to watch out for is that most of the UK style yeasts that we use for stouts and Pale Ales (to be served on nitro as Smooth or Creamflow style ales) continue working slowly in the keg, as they were "designed" to work slowly in the cask in the UK pub cellar. So our beers very often supply a lot of their own CO2.

I regularly find my nitro beers to be very lively after a week or so in the keg and need to wind my pressure way back for a while to allow them to settle down.


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## Black n Tan (10/4/15)

What serving pressure do you use Bribie? The fact that find this occurs after only a week suggests to me that is due more to serving pressure rather than yeast activity. Is there anything wrong with using a lower serving pressure (say 20psi/140kPa) and shorter lines to get the creamy finish?


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## DJ_L3ThAL (11/4/15)

Would it be safer to go 100% Nitrogen for serving then, letting the beer do its own carbonation?


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## moonhead (21/4/16)

Not sure if anyone if following this thread any more. Just keen to hear where people are getting their Nitro cylinders from?

I see people recommending the BOC and Elgas 70/30 mixes, but I'm not sure how much they cost?

The Elgas ones only seem to be in F-size cylinders, which seem a bit ridiculous for home brewing. the BOC VT size ones seem a bit better, but I understand you need to rent these? How much does that cost?!!

I know MyKegsOnLegs now do the mixes, but only in Sydney, I'm in Melbourne, so that's a bit crap for me... Any ideas where to get this gas from?


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## Bribie G (21/4/16)

BOC cylinders about $58 a quarter. I've handed mine in as I found I was only doing maybe 10 nitro brews a year so it was working out an expensive exercise.
Stout tap still works fine on CO2 and if necessary I can crank the pressure right up and get quite a creamy pour with stouts.


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## Moad (10/7/16)

My kegs on legs. Same price as co2 and have your lhbs call the supplier as I am able to get them in Newcastle


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## Moad (8/9/16)

Speedgas have the bottles to buy outright (D size) for $240 and $40 refills
MKOL bottle was $350 and $60 refills

Anyone want to buy a MKOL bottle?


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## koshari (4/5/17)

Moad said:


> Speedgas have the bottles to buy outright (D size) for $240 and $40 refills
> MKOL bottle was $350 and $60 refills
> 
> Anyone want to buy a MKOL bottle?


is this for "30% co2 / 70% No" or straight co2? and are they type 30 fittings?


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## Moad (7/5/17)

30/70 in the same bottle as co2, I find I am keeping pressure around 20 psi or I end up with too much head.


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## Paul H (7/5/17)

Moad said:


> 30/70 in the same bottle as co2, I find I am keeping pressure around 20 psi or I end up with too much head.


Didn't know that was possible..


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## Moad (7/5/17)

OT: put some beers on for a mates engagement party last night. In the beer notes I put something about wheat for head retention - "you'll need to retain all the head now you are getting married" expecting him to proof read and take it out.

He didn't... 100+ people.... haha!


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## mr_wibble (8/5/17)

I recently (November) got the 70:30 mix from speedgas in Newcastle (Bennets Green, up behind the Harvey Norman, at the back of the industrial area).
I'm very happy with the service. Prices were the same as what Moad specifies.

I talked to someone on the phone at Speedgas (Sydney), and they said one of their employees sells N2 Tesuco regulators on ebay. I don't know if that's part of their business, or some kind of sideline. I guess it doesn't matter.

I ended up going with this, and a nice stout tap from aliexpress.

I'm really happy with the whole setup. 

I had read (maybe in this thread) to carbonate the beer on pure CO2 before connecting it to the 70:30. On my first keg I only carbonated it a little, expecting that "30%" to carbonate it. The carbonation never seemed happen after a couple of weeks, and I put it back on the CO2 for a couple of days. After that it was good, and it has remained good ever since. I even bought a can of guiness to compare the carb/cream level - it was perfect in comparison.


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## mckenry (8/5/17)

I'm missing something here I'm sure. How can you guys carbonate your beer with CO2 as usual, put it on cellarmix, 70/30 for dispensing and get 'Guiness' type pours?
The VB you drink at a pub is carbonated with CO2, then pushed out with cellarmix. Its certainly not creamy.
It must be the stout tap knocking out the CO2 to produce creamy pours. If that is so, then why bother with the cellarmix?

Not having a crack at anyone, just need to understand. I'm going to read the 5 pages again, but feel free to jump in and enlighten me.


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## Moad (8/5/17)

It is so you can leave it on at higher pressure and the beer doesn't absorb that level of CO2, Nitrogen does not absorb in to the beer much at all. So very crude calculation but for example, you leave cellarmix at 30 psi, 30% of that is co2 so essentially 10psi of co2. If it was pure CO2 the beer would absorb the Co2.

If you want to crank your co2 every pour and then bleed and turn back down you do not need cellarmix.


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## malt junkie (8/5/17)

mckenry said:


> I'm missing something here I'm sure. How can you guys carbonate your beer with CO2 as usual, put it on cellarmix, 70/30 for dispensing and get 'Guiness' type pours?
> The VB you drink at a pub is carbonated with CO2, then pushed out with cellarmix. Its certainly not creamy.
> It must be the stout tap knocking out the CO2 to produce creamy pours. If that is so, then why bother with the cellarmix?
> 
> Not having a crack at anyone, just need to understand. I'm going to read the 5 pages again, but feel free to jump in and enlighten me.


Cellar mix is as described; for pushing beer from a cellar. most cellars are below ground by a few meters, lets call it 3m to the tap. So to have your beer exiting your tap at 80- 100 kpa you'd need a minimum of an extra 30kpa, if this was done with standard co2 the beer would be over carbed, The nitrogen isn't absorbed so the over carbonation doesn't happen. Move to a stout tap and the Idea is to have the beer go through the tap at higher pressure, but not higher carbonation, therefore cellar mix is prefered.

Beaten by moad!


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## mckenry (8/5/17)

Moad said:


> It is so you can leave it on at higher pressure and the beer doesn't absorb that level of CO2, Nitrogen does not absorb in to the beer much at all. So very crude calculation but for example, you leave cellarmix at 30 psi, 30% of that is co2 so essentially 10psi of co2. If it was pure CO2 the beer would absorb the Co2.
> 
> If you want to crank your co2 every pour and then bleed and turn back down you do not need cellarmix.





malt junkie said:


> Cellar mix is as described; for pushing beer from a cellar. most cellars are below ground by a few meters, lets call it 3m to the tap. So to have your beer exiting your tap at 80- 100 kpa you'd need a minimum of an extra 30kpa, if this was done with standard co2 the beer would be over carbed, The nitrogen isn't absorbed so the over carbonation doesn't happen. Move to a stout tap and the Idea is to have the beer go through the tap at higher pressure, but not higher carbonation, therefore cellar mix is prefered.
> 
> Beaten by moad!


Thanks guys, but I understand totally the need for cellarmix and avoiding overcarbonation. I run a bar on weekends.
What I'm trying to understand is how homebrewers are getting a guinness pour, just by pushing their beer with cellarmix.
So, it seems its all about high pressure through a stout tap? (and to get the high pressure they use 70/30 to avoid over-carb) So, they're running dual bottles?


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## mckenry (8/5/17)

So, I guess my question / statement is that it all comes down to the tap? If all beers are pushed out using cellarmix, and only guiness or kilkenny etc are creamy its gotta be the tap right? There's no nitrogen in solution?


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## malt junkie (8/5/17)

if your kegs are all carbed is there a need for straight co2? But yeah if I were to move to cellar mix I'd probably still have a bottle of co2 about.


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## Bribie G (8/5/17)

I bought a stout tap and reg actually as a joint buy with Tony, who started this thread, to reduce postage from the USA

As I posted earlier I sold my nitro reg and handed in my BOC bottle but the stout tap still has pride of place in the middle of my 3 tap font.
It pours basically Guinness style heads, on CO2.

I recently removed the restrictor plate out of the tap to reduce the creaminess but because of the configuration of the tap itself - I assume - I still get a much more stouty head than from the micromatic taps on either side.


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## mr_wibble (8/5/17)

mckenry said:


> I'm missing something here I'm sure. How can you guys carbonate your beer with CO2 as usual, put it on cellarmix, 70/30 for dispensing and get 'Guiness' type pours?
> [...]
> Not having a crack at anyone, just need to understand. I'm going to read the 5 pages again, but feel free to jump in and enlighten me.


As far as I read, the beer is not completely carbonated.
I think I read something that said to leave it on the CO2 as per normal, but for a shorter time.

And that's what I did.


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## Dan Pratt (8/5/17)

Mr Wibble said:


> As far as I read, the beer is not completely carbonated.
> I think I read something that said to leave it on the CO2 as per normal, but for a shorter time.
> 
> And that's what I did.


I carbonate the nitro beers to about 1.2-1.6 volumes then serve them under 40psi of pressure with 30/70 mix.

Its the tap that knocks that low carbonation out of solution to make the creamy head, the stout disc inside the tap wont knock the co2 out of solution without HIGH pressure, which you need nitrogen to do it.

Good to hear someone sells them, (not sure how legal that is) Im paying rental for a VT tank and its about $15 per month


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## Moad (9/5/17)

Sorry Mckenry misunderstood your question.

The stout tap is what restricts it and makes it foam, for me anyway.

I run two bottles, the 70/30 bottle is dedicated to nitro tap.


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## koshari (10/5/17)

mckenry said:


> Thanks guys, but I understand totally the need for cellarmix and avoiding overcarbonation. I run a bar on weekends.
> What I'm trying to understand is how homebrewers are getting a guinness pour, just by pushing their beer with cellarmix.
> So, it seems its all about high pressure through a stout tap? (and to get the high pressure they use 70/30 to avoid over-carb) *So, they're running dual bottles*?


alternatively you could use 2 regulars with just the cellermix. , one set for round 6 to 10 psi for your lagers/ales and another with the higher 30psi to force the stout through the restriction plate?


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