# Hand pump/beer engine has arrived!



## black_labb (22/1/13)

I've finally gotten ahold of my xmas present I gave myself, an Angram hand pump.

Within 5 minutes of getting the box open I had it set up pulling 20L of napisan solution through the lines followed by plenty of water for a good rinse. Yesterday I bottled and "bagged" some beer.

A bit of an explanation of cask ale is probably required for some people, skip over the next 2 paragraphs if you understand the principles and results. Simply put cask ale is ale that is served without adding C02 (or any other gas by artificial means) .This means that you cannot force carbonate beer, and it cannot be served under pressure from a bottle. This means that when the beer is poured/pulled you are sucking from the cask (think keg). You cannot keep pulling from a keg without something taking the place of the beer you have drawn from the keg. In a typical kegging setup this space is filled by the co2 delivered at a specific pressure from the regulator. With cask ale you suck beer from the cask using a diaphragm pump or simply gravity, which is a part of the "tap", as opposed to pushing the beer out with pressurised co2.

The difference between cask ale and kegging is not simply about how the beer gets from the keg/cask to the glass.Relative to pressurised keg systems cask ale tends to be served at warmer temperatures (about 10-13*c), it is less carbonated and is "alive", meaning the yeast is still active. This makes for quite a different drinking experience. Firstly the low carbonation levels make the beer smoother and less bitey. The Warmer temperatures bring out the malty flavours in the beer and generally make your taste buds more perceptive. The fact that the beer is "alive" doesn't really mean much for home brewers, but compared to macro brews it means the beer isn't filtered or pasturised leaving all the goodness.

The issue with Cask ale is that you need to allow air into the cask as you pull the beer. This leads to oxidation and beer generally going bad. Cask ale generally has a shelf life of about 3-5 days once you have tapped the cask because you start to let in nasties and oxygen. There are ways around this like using a sterile air filter where the cask takes in air, or using an aspirator which isn't really approved of to use co2 instead of air. The other option that has become more apparent recently is using collapsible casks, which are made from flexible plastics. This means that instead of sucking in air when the beer is pulled the container holding the beer collapses on itself. This means longer shelf life, but I'm not sure how long. I bought 18x 4L "beer bags". My main issue with keggins systems is that 19L kegs are the only economical choice. I value beer range over beer volume in a big way which is why I never decided to go for a "normal" kegging setup. With this setup I can bottle some beer and "cask/bag" some beer. Using 4L casks I can have a pretty quick turnover for the "regular drinker" and have bottles for when I want something different without having to take up a big fridge/keezer for corny's.

So my decision was to organise a hand pump and a number of 4L "polypins" or "cubitainers". as the storage vessel. I finally got all the parts together tonight and got everything put together and was pulling beer together a couple of hours later..

This story will continue tomorrow. The system works too well and after getting excited about pulling your own ales I can't continue to write a helpful and objective article. until then just know that it works.
[sharedmedia=gallery:albums:932]


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (22/1/13)

Welcome to the hand pumpers. :beer:
Nev


----------



## BPH87 (22/1/13)

Mate looks great! 

If you don't mind me asking how much is one of these and where did you get it?

Cheers, 

Ben


----------



## ticinglese (22/1/13)

Nice set up! If air doesn't enter the bag can you still call it cask conditioned ale?  I was thinking if using a 5l aluminium party keg but would need to modify it so air could replaced the extracted beer. Had a 4.5 gallon upright cask made for myself in England for parties complete with yr brewery name embossed on the side, can send the details if you are interested - tho postage to Oz would prob cost more than the cask!


----------



## Bribie G (22/1/13)

Ahh tears sprang to these Pommy eyes. BCF sell collapsible 20L water containers that are basically like the UK polypins minus the cardboard box, I reckon they could be adapted - they are really cheap.
A firkin sized collapsible bag in box system was used by the Hull brewery (from whence Ringwood yeast was rescued and lives on) way back in the 1970s and I enjoyed many a session on their beers in Scarborough on holidays.

When I was in Wellington on a beer trip I noted that many of their hand pumped beers are out of a collapsible polypin as well. It would be great if these could be available in Australia as you can also just use them to serve beer on gravity.


----------



## Tilt (22/1/13)

Here's a nice post and pic about using the water container option http://www.forum.realbeer.co.nz/forum/topics/beer-engine-beer-pump?commentId=1500433%3AComment%3A88268


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (22/1/13)

The plastic bag is a definite "Must try"
Cheers Nev


----------



## Tilt (22/1/13)

I've seen a sweet camping/party set up using a modified caravan sink waterpump as the handpump along with the waterbag in an esky. An impressive portable set up for not many $$. It didn't have the bling factor that the Angram does though.... 
I reckon if you're starting with a new water bag it could probably do with a soak in water + bicarb soda to get rid of the plastic smell before it gets a beer fill.


----------



## Kodos (22/1/13)

I've tried the BCF camping bags, and while they work for short term storage (think fill from the keg to take to a party) I've found the taps leak slowly.

They slowly leak CO2 so won't hold condition, or they slowly leak beer, leading to contamination/infection risk.

I think the bags sold for real ale in the UK must have better taps (judging by the pics I've seen on the web I believe this to be the case)


----------



## NewtownClown (22/1/13)

tilt said:


> I've seen a sweet camping/party set up using a modified caravan sink waterpump as the handpump along with the waterbag in an esky. An impressive portable set up for not many $$. It didn't have the bling factor that the Angram does though....
> I reckon if you're starting with a new water bag it could probably do with a soak in water + bicarb soda to get rid of the plastic smell before it gets a beer fill.


 You mean this? Story here


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (22/1/13)

You can take the brewer out of the Ghetto,
But you cant take the Ghetto out of the brewer 
Nev


----------



## sp0rk (22/1/13)

NewtownClown said:


> You mean this? Story here


After having a look at the parts on fleabay, I've decided to make myself one of these until if have the cash to drop on a real beer engine
I found 10 litre collapsible water containers in the uk, and can get 2 over for about $30
Will report back once i get everything together


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (22/1/13)

Dont forget to make a PDF with all the measurments and images, I am sure there will be interest.
Nev


----------



## NickB (22/1/13)

I tried the cheap route before I bit the bullet. Terrible to be honest. Beer poured terribly, and most of the bits inside those taps are not made for acidic liquid like beer. Ymmv but I wouldn't bother.

Cheers


----------



## [email protected] (22/1/13)

tilt said:


> I've seen a sweet camping/party set up using a modified caravan sink waterpump as the handpump along with the waterbag in an esky. An impressive portable set up for not many $$. It didn't have the bling factor that the Angram does though....
> I reckon if you're starting with a new water bag it could probably do with a soak in water + bicarb soda to get rid of the plastic smell before it gets a beer fill.


Why do you need to use the bags? I understand if you don't have kegs and/or you are going through a fair volume.

I have been playing around with the caravan pumps to trial a ghetto handpump and found that I get pretty good results by

* storing the beer in a 19L keg with 5psi CO2 pressure
* pour off what I need for a session into a gallon demijohn etc - sometimes I pour only a pint off into a glass and pump from that to another pint
* then pump from the storage vessel used which you can get to the right temp etc.

I did this as I also didn't want to invest in CO2 breathers and all the setup for a permanent handpump system when I only wanted a few pints here and there. It is also totally portable.

I know it's not exactly traditional but effective none the less.


----------



## sp0rk (22/1/13)

collapsible bags eliminate oxidation (atleast significantly reduce it), and there is no need for a co2 hook up at all

*ninja edit*
Not to mention you can sit the whole bag in your ferment fridge (if it's not being used at the time) and have it sitting at 10 degrees, just right for real ales


----------



## sp0rk (22/1/13)

The only problem with the parts i can find is, the lever style pumps like in the BYO article are stupid expensive
i can only find plunger style pumps for around $35


----------



## NickB (22/1/13)

Exactly. By the time you buy the its to build this, you're nearly half way to an actual beer engine!


----------



## sp0rk (22/1/13)

maybe I'll keep an eye out for a cheap beer engine (or get a friend in the UK to send me one over) and get the collapsible casks bags once i get the engine


----------



## NickB (22/1/13)

Yeah, I currently run mine from a keg, just crack the pressure relief valve when I want to pour. Not ideal and the beer will oxidise, but I do give it a squirt of CO2 after I'm done.

I do have some of those collapsible containers, but I've found it quite difficult to get the correct size tube to smugly fit, and the fact that the spigot on these turns, can cause some issues.

Trying to work around it now, and I am in the process of building a dedicated bar just for the hand pump, complete with a bar fridge 

Cheers


----------



## black_labb (22/1/13)

A couple quick replies on the phone. 

I bought it second hand on ebay. It cost more to ship than for the unit but i figure it is a tap, regulator, co2 bottle all in one. Also the bags are cheap and compatible with all different size fridges. All up it was about 230 landed. I bought 18 4L casks which were about 4$ each landed. 

Currently the taps i was sent were the wrong size (22mm hose would be needed instead of the 12mm) . I've made a working solution by putting a bottling tube with a grommet through the lid which seals well, but means i need to change lids between conditioning and serving. Also i cannot simply shut the valve at the end of a session and drain the line (replacing wih water is ideal i believe). That might not be neccesary but in the summertime i dont like the idea of leaving beer in the line all day. 

The beer is stored at atmospheric pressure, not 5psi which is why a bag is fine. I think if the tap is leaking at the tap the pressure is to high. This time was a bit premature for the beer as it had only been put into the bag 36 hours before the tapping. I primed he bag wih about 6 g of white sugar, about a teaspoon. He beer had started to carb up a touch and there was some aorspace filling with co2. I was excited and wanted to see how it worked. Surprisingly the red american rye ipa had reasonable condition and held head very well. That's probably partly due to so much rye and hops. I don't ever expect it to be very clear with 20% rye and a very frustrating brew due to stuck recirculation resulting in alot of stirring of the grain bed. Tastes good through the hand pump. I plan on leaving the other bag of the rripa until i can compare it to the bottled version, so about 4 weeks. To bad i don't have much else to put on until i ferment the cubes of english ales i have waiting. Might have to fill some up from bottles!


More details tonight when i'm not usinge the phone.


----------



## CosmicBertie (22/1/13)

I didnt think it was too difficult, and have no problems with my setup.
This is filling the 20L bag straight from the fermentor. It'll hold about 23L. No leaks.




The bag tap has my homemade quick-disconnect connector put on it



The beer engine has the female quick-disconnect on the end of it



Ready for a quick pint!




And when the session is over, disconnect the bag, and whack it back in the fridge at 10C. Then run two litres of water through the pump to clean it out ready for next time!


----------



## black_labb (22/1/13)

Bribie G said:


> Ahh tears sprang to these Pommy eyes. BCF sell collapsible 20L water containers that are basically like the UK polypins minus the cardboard box, I reckon they could be adapted - they are really cheap.
> A firkin sized collapsible bag in box system was used by the Hull brewery (from whence Ringwood yeast was rescued and lives on) way back in the 1970s and I enjoyed many a session on their beers in Scarborough on holidays.
> 
> When I was in Wellington on a beer trip I noted that many of their hand pumped beers are out of a collapsible polypin as well. It would be great if these could be available in Australia as you can also just use them to serve beer on gravity.


I spent a bit of time in christchurch in november where handpumps are pretty common, which was a catalyst for me getting this organised.





Cosmic Bertie said:


> I didnt think it was too difficult, and have no problems with my setup.
> This is filling the 20L bag straight from the fermentor. It'll hold about 23L. No leaks.
> 
> 
> ...


Quick disconnects, great idea!


----------



## S.E (23/1/13)

black_labb said:


> A couple quick replies on the phone.
> 
> I bought it second hand on ebay. It cost more to ship than for the unit but i figure it is a tap, regulator, co2 bottle all in one. Also the bags are cheap and compatible with all different size fridges. All up it was about 230 landed. I bought 18 4L casks which were about 4$ each landed.
> 
> ...


Have you considered using cubes as casks? I caused a bit of controversy suggesting this here

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/70056-carbingconditioning-in-a-cube-before-keg/

but if you are ok with priming polypins I guess you would be ok with cubes. They don’t collapse like polypins but I have made a sort of re-usable keystone by drilling a hole in a spare cap and fitting an air lock grommet (Keystone Caps  ).

When I want to vent the cube and connect to the beer engine I just replace the un-drilled cap and push in a race cask ventilator. Or you could use an aspirator if you have co2.

They do have a few advantages over polypins.

They are easy to clean and re-use.

The taps don’t leak even under pressure. (if you put them in a cup of boiling water pull them apart and smear a little Vaseline).

The beer will clear and condition much better under the pressure a cube takes.








Cheers


----------



## erniebeer (23/1/13)

I have tried Cosmic Berties beer. The hand pump is fantastic, his accent is hard to understand at times (Yorkshire accent) but after a few pints of his beer and the beer engine my brain doesnt seem to mind. Hey nice hat Bertie is that a hat from colombia or somewhere south america??


----------



## sp0rk (23/1/13)

After some more google-fu, I've found a decently priced RV pump, i believe the same on as in the BYO article

http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/item/rocket-hand-pump/14040

I'll look into how much the postage will be when i get home this afternoon and price the whole shebang up to see if it's worth it
hopefully I'll be enjoying some nice stouts and porters from a home made beer engine by the time winter rolls around


----------



## Malted (23/1/13)

Cosmic Bertie said:


> I didnt think it was too difficult, and have no problems with my setup.
> This is filling the 20L bag straight from the fermentor. It'll hold about 23L. No leaks.


Looks exactly like the 20L jobby from BCF refered to earlier. I bought a 20L collapsible water container from someone on EBay in England. I dropped it with beer in it and it broke. I bought two replacements from BCF - they are identical to the one I got from England.
So I have a length of 1/2" silcone hose - it shoves neatly over the barb on my beer engine and also shoves neatly onto the tap of the bag. No clamps or any hose securing device needed. The tap on my bag does not leak in the period of time it takes me to drink it's contents.

Edit: Bertie, I had my bag on a bar about the width of yours. Make sure you tie a bit of string to the bag handle and then to your bench etc. For unknown reasons they can just move or roll (and land on the floor and break thus spilling the precious beer onto the floor).

Furthermore, I find that the bag is best placed at about the height of the drip tray or higher. With the bag down on the ground I found I had more CO2 coming out of solution up the hose to the pump. YRMV.


----------



## Diesel80 (23/1/13)

sp0rk said:


> After some more google-fu, I've found a decently priced RV pump, i believe the same on as in the BYO article
> 
> http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/item/rocket-hand-pump/14040
> 
> ...


SpOrk can also get them off Amazon.com, if i recall slightly cheaper again. Amazon's postage is pretty lean too if it ships from their warehouse.

Cheers,
D80


----------



## sp0rk (23/1/13)

Heh, i was just coming back to report on that
http://www.amazon.com/Valterra-RP800-Chrome-Rocket-Hand/dp/B000BGM2XG
just under $36 including shipping

BCF have the collapsible water containers for $13 each, which is a little more than on Ebay, but I can return them easily if they fail
so I'm anticipating the whole setup to cost less than $75 including building a stand for the pump and all fittings, the pump and 2 bags


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (23/1/13)

sp0rk said:


> Heh, i was just coming back to report on that
> http://www.amazon.com/Valterra-RP800-Chrome-Rocket-Hand/dp/B000BGM2XG
> just under $36 including shipping
> 
> ...


Read the reviews first not very good comments, leaks apparently. .
Nev


----------



## Diesel80 (23/1/13)

How much would one look to be paying for a legit beer engine?

Is this too steep?
http://www.a1barstuff.co.uk/single-clampon-handpull-p-173.html

I am keen as on one of these authentic ones.
Have seen some on ebay.co.uk aswell for about $160AUD but unsure of delivery costs.

Cheers,
D80


----------



## sp0rk (23/1/13)

The delivery costs would be quite high
I'm guessing a decent beer engine would weigh between 5 to 10 kilos
I've seen posts round here talking about postage costing more than the beer engine itself (second hand units)


----------



## Wolfy (23/1/13)

Diesel80 said:


> How much would one look to be paying for a legit beer engine?
> 
> I am keen as on one of these authentic ones.
> Have seen some on ebay.co.uk aswell for about $160AUD but unsure of delivery costs.


Most quotes - even from other beer-lovers on the UK-based JBK forums - to have one sent from the UK to Australia are around £75-100.
If you look on UK-ebay sometimes they sell for as low as £20-50.


----------



## Malted (23/1/13)

Diesel80 said:


> How much would one look to be paying for a legit beer engine?
> 
> Is this too steep?
> http://www.a1barstuff.co.uk/single-clampon-handpull-p-173.html
> ...


I bought a brand new EWL handpump for 99 quid + 79.50 quid for postage and insurance. It also included the drip tray, 1/2 hose and a plastic cask tap (everything to connect it to a barrel). It came via DHL express and arrived a lot quicker than via postal service. It is a great handpump. Can't find an image of it atm. Will give contact details of UK seller to anyone who wants them via PM.

http://www.worthside.co.uk/cask.html


----------



## Diesel80 (23/1/13)

Malted said:


> Will give contact details of UK seller to anyone who wants them via PM.
> 
> http://www.worthside.co.uk/cask.html


Keen on the details, if of course they differ to the link provided.
Cheers,
D80


----------



## erniebeer (23/1/13)

another option to lower the price of postage may do a bulk buy of somekind (not really bulk but like 4 beer engines from the place above). Id be interested.


----------



## Malted (23/1/13)

Diesel80 said:


> Keen on the details, if of course they differ to the link provided.
> Cheers,
> D80


Yes different contact details to those of the EWL website. PM sent.


----------



## Jase (31/1/13)

Diesel80 said:


> How much would one look to be paying for a legit beer engine?
> 
> Is this too steep?
> http://www.a1barstuff.co.uk/single-clampon-handpull-p-173.html
> ...


I think I paid £60 for delivery. It was shipped on a Monday, and delivered to my front door on Thursday. Four days. I was shocked. 

Cheers,
Jase.


----------

