# Lactic Acid 88% How much is too much to reduce pH



## scruffy40nil (15/6/21)

First post long time reader......
I've been brewing all-grain for over a year now using a 65L Brewzilla.
I'm very new at experimenting with water salt additions to the mash. 

I'm a little concerned with the amount of lactic acid that my recipe from Brewfather calculated (16.8ml for a 50L batch) to bring down my pH level to 5.2pH.
Looking to brew tomorrow so I've already purchased my grain bill, concerned with the 16.8ml of lactic acid and if you'll be able to taste the acid in the finial product.

Below is my XPA recipe grain bill and salt addition.

78% Gladfield American Ale Malt
12% Wheat Malt Barrett Burston
10% Gladfield Vienna Malt

Starting water is Sydney (Ryde) water and target water is Yellow Dry (under 6 SRM) water profile from beer smith.
Mash Water Additions:
Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) 1.61g
Epsom Salt (MgSO4) 3.66g
Gypsum (CaSO4) 5.39g
Lactic Acid 88% 16.8ml

pH with Lactic Acid: 5.2pH
pH without lactic acid: 5.72pH

Mash water vol: 48L 

Many thanks in advance.


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## Sidney Harbour-Bridge (15/6/21)

I'm not sure of the exact chemistry but I would measure the pH before adding lactic acid as the water salts specified will reduce pH (I think)


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## MHB (15/6/21)

Scruffy you need to know
The strength of the Lactic acid, 80%, 88% and 100% are all available, obviously the stronger the less you need.
The mass of malt, there is a pretty simple calculation for how much a given amount of Lactic will lower the pH of a known mass of malt. I posted the raw data from Kunze in another thread.
I see you have 88% Lactic acid, If your grain bill was say 9kg and given that 0.6mL of 88% Lactic will lower the pH of 1kg of grist by 0.1pH. To get from 5.7 to 5.2 you need a change of 5 of 0.1's
So 0.6*5*9 = 27mL (actually its 0.6 and a bit mills but better to add a touch less than to go too far)
That calculation is for a 100% base malt beer or close to, you calculator might be assuming the Vienna and Wheat are a bit more acidic so you need less Lactic, but I would go with what your are given and check it again.

I doubt there is enough there to affect the taste of the beer.
Mark


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## scruffy40nil (15/6/21)

MHB said:


> Scruffy you need to know
> The strength of the Lactic acid, 80%, 88% and 100% are all available, obviously the stronger the less you need.
> The mass of malt, there is a pretty simple calculation for how much a given amount of Lactic will lower the pH of a known mass of malt. I posted the raw data from Kunze in another thread.
> I see you have 88% Lactic acid, If your grain bill was say 9kg and given that 0.6mL of 88% Lactic will lower the pH of 1kg of grist by 0.1pH. To get from 5.7 to 5.2 you need a change of 5 of 0.1's
> ...



Thanks Mark,
I'll check that post out now. That makes me feel much better. I didn't want to add too much, I was wanting to add some sour grapes malt to the grain bill to reduce the amount of lactic acid but couldn't get my hands on any in time. 

Cheers


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## duncbrewer (15/6/21)

@scruffy40nil 

I use brewersfriend water calculator that likes to know total volume of water mash and sparge and then if salts only to the mash.
Further it will suggest acid addition for the sparge water as well to ensure the pH not too high and no tannin extraction occurs. 
Seems like a lot of mash water to me I have a guten 70 so similar capacity and normally around 3 litre per kilo of grain so this suggests to me 16kilo of grain. 
Volume of that grain and 48 litres is more than 65 litres I'd say so do be careful that you can fit it all in. I normally reckon to lose about one litre per kg of grain so that would leave about 32 litres and plenty to sparge with.

Difficult to know about the lactic acid amount without knowing the grain mass really.


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## mynameisrodney (15/6/21)

I just put this into Bru'n water (assuming 10kg total grain) and that addition took the ph from 5.76 to 4.71.

I'm not claiming to be an expert at water chemistry, but I think its worth another check. EDIT: if 16.8ml is correct then I might need some help sorting out the spreadsheet haha.


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## scruffy40nil (15/6/21)

duncbrewer said:


> @scruffy40nil
> 
> I use brewersfriend water calculator that likes to know total volume of water mash and sparge and then if salts only to the mash.
> Further it will suggest acid addition for the sparge water as well to ensure the pH not too high and no tannin extraction occurs.
> ...





duncbrewer said:


> @scruffy40nil
> 
> I use brewersfriend water calculator that likes to know total volume of water mash and sparge and then if salts only to the mash.
> Further it will suggest acid addition for the sparge water as well to ensure the pH not too high and no tannin extraction occurs.
> ...


total grain weight is 11.1kg 
Mash Water: 47.5L
Sparge Water: 20.5L
Mash Vol (water + Grain): 55L
Final Batch Vol: 50.8L 

Do you think it's too much mash water? I've scaled this recipe up from my 35L brewzilla.. Calculations all been created by brewfather.


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## scruffy40nil (15/6/21)

mynameisrodney said:


> I just put this into Bru'n water (assuming 10kg total grain) and that addition took the ph from 5.76 to 4.71.
> 
> I'm not claiming to be an expert at water chemistry, but I think its worth another check. EDIT: if 16.8ml is correct then I might need some help sorting out the spreadsheet haha.



Ive been using the brewfather water calculator to get this number, I'm assuming from what Mark suggested above that the calculator would be making adjustments for the Vienna and Wheat malts.


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## mynameisrodney (15/6/21)

Ok so I've now put the info into Bru'n water, EZ water, and Brewersfriend, adjusted to your 11.1kg grain bill. EZ and BF both give 5.18, so close enough, but Bru'n water (which I've been using for my beers) is still giving 4.75. Dammit! I've triple checked all the tabs and cant find anything wrong. I hope I can figure this out, and if any of my recent batches have been wrong.


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## scruffy40nil (15/6/21)

mynameisrodney said:


> Ok so I've now put the info into Bru'n water, EZ water, and Brewersfriend, adjusted to your 11.1kg grain bill. EZ and BF both give 5.18, so close enough, but Bru'n water (which I've been using for my beers) is still giving 4.75. Dammit! I've triple checked all the tabs and cant find anything wrong. I hope I can figure this out, and if any of my recent batches have been wrong.


I'm not too familiar with Bru'n water as I've only use it once. I'm not all that confident in putting 100% trust in any water calculator. I'll be adding 80% of the lactic acid to my mash water and then making adjustments once I check the mash pH after 10-15mins of mashing.


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## MHB (15/6/21)

scruffy40nil said:


> Snip
> Starting water is Sydney (Ryde) water and target water is Yellow Dry (under 6 SRM) water profile from beer smith.
> Mash Water Additions:
> Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) 1.61g
> ...


In 48L I only get about 32ppm of Calcium, admittedly just a quick finger count, I don’t know how much Ca your tap water has but I like to add about 100ppm (50-100ppm is regarded as a minimum).
I doubt that’s the cause of the problem under discussion but it just stuck out as being a bit odd.
Mark


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## scruffy40nil (15/6/21)

I'm only trying to reach 50ppm for this XPA.. thats working from 15ppm Sydney water


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## MHB (15/6/21)

Why?
Seriously why, I'm curious, 50-100 is as above regarded as a minimum, personally I aim around 100-150 in most beers, some higher. Lots of good reasons to have more than just the bare minimum of Ca available
I would leave out the Epsom Salts and use more Ca something to taste. If you have enough Sulphate and Chloride you can always use Calcium Lactate, gives you Ca without the Cl or SO4, also when you mix Lactic and Lactate you get a very powerful buffer complex that works to my mind better than stuff like 5.2.
Mark


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## scruffy40nil (15/6/21)

I'm really just playing around with this recipe as I have brewed it a few time now, my aim is for a dry xpa . So I'm using the water profile yellow dry (under 6 SRM) from Beer Smith, As this was suggest to be a good profile to work with.


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## MHB (15/6/21)

Fair call, you can get quite a lot paler and dryer if that’s where you are heading. I doubt there is any connection with low Ca and pale colour, arguably more Ca could help as it aids trub formation and helps Alpha Amylase resist being denatured, a pH of 5.2 is pretty close to the optimum for Beta Amylase which will keep the beer dryer.
Not saying the recipe looks anything other than lovely,
Best Extra Pale XPA I have tasted was done with 100% UK extra pale malt, about the same colour you are aiming at, perhaps even a bit paler. Personal taste.
Mark


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## scruffy40nil (15/6/21)

Thanks Mark, really do appreciate the feedback.. I might actually try the 100% UK extra pale malt...


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## duncbrewer (15/6/21)

@scruffy40nil 
Okay thanks for update, lots of good advice above. Still seems a lot of mash water and not much sparge. 
What kind of Brewhouse efficiency do you get with these volumes. 
I'm happy to go much wetter mash if you are getting good figures, I'm finding that my 20 litre mash, 6 kg of grain and 18 litres of sparge still leaves wort draining that is well over 1.020. With that I'm getting around 75% efficiency.


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## MHB (15/6/21)

Might be worth starting a new thread.
Here is a table of L:G for first running yield, in efect no sparge. You can get a lot more if you sparge, properly, if you are only getting 75% I suspect you are sparging way too quickly or something like that as it isnt working very well.





If you want to pull it all apart and see where it takes you, start a new thread on efficiency.
Mark


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## duncbrewer (16/6/21)

@MHB 
Thanks for that, I'll start that thread later. Sparge is very fast most of the time unless lots of gummy adjuncts, recirculate normally flat out. I'll bring it all up in the thread.


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## mynameisrodney (16/6/21)

Ok I've gone through the spreadsheet about 5 times now and I'm still stumped. Can somebody who uses Bru'n water take a look at this and see what I'm doing wrong? It all set up as per recipe in this thread, and Ryde water report from Sydney water.


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## Coalminer (16/6/21)

Screen shots would be better, most would be reluctant to open attachments
What version BrunWater is that? Latest 42720 paid version is up to date and personalised with free advice from Martin via email


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## mynameisrodney (16/6/21)

Thanks mate, just using the free version 1.25. Screenshots below.


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## scruffy40nil (16/6/21)

mynameisrodney said:


> Ok I've gone through the spreadsheet about 5 times now and I'm still stumped. Can somebody who uses Bru'n water take a look at this and see what I'm doing wrong? It all set up as per recipe in this thread, and Ryde water report from Sydney water.


Rodney,
Just thought I'd keep you updated, I added the whole 16.8ml of 88% of lactic acid to the mash water and my pH reading was bang on 5.20 after 15mins of mashing..


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## duncbrewer (16/6/21)

That's good, hope your pH meter is right. Seems like it is!


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## mynameisrodney (17/6/21)

Good to hear dude. I think I'll make the switch in what I use.

I also need to decide what to do about a pH meter. I bought a milwaukee one a few years back. But at the time thought it was a one time purchase. Didn't realise electrodes only last a year or so and are 50 bucks a pop. When the first one died I didn't replace it and have just been relying on brun water being correct. Whoops.


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## duncbrewer (17/6/21)

My cheap 30 dollar meter working well, now that I have protected the electrode with the preserving solution. Although that cost as much as the meter nearly but will last a long time.
I did give up with it when unreliable and trusted to luck, used brewersfriend water calc and gazed at pH paper. 

Interestingly one brew I have on now a sour IPA so I'm monitoring the pH of that waiting for it to hit 3.6 and then can throw in the kveik.


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## scruffy40nil (17/6/21)

duncbrewer said:


> That's good, hope your pH meter is right. Seems like it is!


I purchased a new head for the kegland ph meter.. I know they're cheap and can't rely too much


duncbrewer said:


> That's good, hope your pH meter is right. Seems like it is!


I purchased a new electrode head for the kegland pH meter as I wasn't using the electrolyte solution when storing my last head.. I'd rather get a more reliable pH meter but they seem to work OK..


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## MHB (17/6/21)

I got one of the Kegland ones to see me through after my good pH meter crashed. So far its fine, good value for money, ordered a new probe with the meter.
New probe for mine is around $400 but it does a bit more than just pH, the price you pay for lab gear can be scary.
Most important to store the probe properly, at a minimum keep it wet in distilled water or better yet electrode storage solution, calibrate before use, don’t stick them into samples that are too hot (personally - over 40oC is a no-no)
My good one tells you when the probe is getting too old, with a basic unit how long it takes to calibrate is a fair indicator, as they ware they take longer and longer to calibrate. Do the ~7pH, then a ~4ph two point calibration, then go back to your 7pH standard, if it isn’t spot on, it might be time to replace it.
Mark


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## scruffy40nil (17/6/21)

mynameisrodney said:


> Good to hear dude. I think I'll make the switch in what I use.
> 
> I also need to decide what to do about a pH meter. I bought a milwaukee one a few years back. But at the time thought it was a one time purchase. Didn't realise electrodes only last a year or so and are 50 bucks a pop. When the first one died I didn't replace it and have just been relying on brun water being correct. Whoops.





mynameisrodney said:


> Good to hear dude. I think I'll make the switch in what I use.
> 
> I also need to decide what to do about a pH meter. I bought a milwaukee one a few years back. But at the time thought it was a one time purchase. Didn't realise electrodes only last a year or so and are 50 bucks a pop. When the first one died I didn't replace it and have just been relying on brun water being correct. Whoops.


I'm using the cheap kegland ph meter that you can change the heads for about 12 bucks.. I do want to upgrade to a more reliable meter just so I know my readings are 90% correct.. I did have to change my mash temp from 66 to 68c as I left my elements on at strike temp when mashing in.. I was able to bring it down to 68c, not overly happy with this result as the whole point of having a 5.2 pH and mashing at 66 was for a drier beer..


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## scruffy40nil (17/6/21)

MHB said:


> I got one of the Kegland ones to see me through after my good pH meter crashed. So far its fine, good value for money, ordered a new probe with the meter.
> New probe for mine is around $400 but it does a bit more than just pH, the price you pay for lab gear can be scary.
> Most important to store the probe properly, at a minimum keep it wet in distilled water or better yet electrode storage solution, calibrate before use, don’t stick them into samples that are too hot (personally - over 40oC is a no-no)
> My good one tells you when the probe is getting too old, with a basic unit how long it takes to calibrate is a fair indicator, as they ware they take longer and longer to calibrate. Do the ~7pH, then a ~4ph two point calibration, then go back to your 7pH standard, if it isn’t spot on, it might be time to replace it.
> Mark


Thanks for that Mark.. I replace my probe head on the kegland meter just before this brew day.. because as you said my last probe was just sitting in the cupboard without the solution and just couldn't trust it was going to work correctly.. I've purchase the solution now and a few more calibration packets..


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## mynameisrodney (17/6/21)

Are you talking about this one?

Digital pH Meter | Pen Style | KegLand

That's what I'm looking at as a replacement. Heading to the brew shop today for gas so might pick one up.


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## scruffy40nil (17/6/21)

mynameisrodney said:


> Are you talking about this one?
> 
> Digital pH Meter | Pen Style | KegLand
> 
> That's what I'm looking at as a replacement. Heading to the brew shop today for gas so might pick one up.


Yep thats the one.


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## duncbrewer (17/6/21)

Well that one pH meter looks light years ahead of mine. But I'm confident it's currently okay and will watch for the signs that it is over the hill and replace it.

Have just been given two TDS ( total dissolved solids ) meters. Not sure how useful they are.


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## MHB (17/6/21)

Can be very useful, I use a TDS meter to monitor the life of my carbon filters, as the amount of Chlorine getting through increases so does the conductivity of the water (TDS and conductivity meters are basically the same thing).
Can also be useful if you are trying to get the most out of a sparge, as soon as tannins start extracting the conductivith goes way up. Probably more useful to a commercial brewer where percents count, not so much for a home brewer.
If your water changes from time to time a TDS reading can be used to tell which water supply you are on. Can affect how much salts you need, again probably a bit over the top for most home brewers, unless you get wildly different water.
If you keep good records taking a TDS reading can tell you if you have screwed up a salt addition.
In all of the above you need to be keeping very good records, probably in a graphic form so you can see when somethin is off script.
Really not something I would spend a bomb on, nor a lot of time, well not as a home brewer. Commercially it can make a big enough difference to be part of the standard procedure.

The $400 probe I need to replace is a combi pH, TSD/conductive/ precision temp probe.
Remember they need calibrating to, so you need a standard solution (mine is 1380uS IIRC)
There are lots of ways to spend time and money in this hobby...
Mark


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## duncbrewer (17/6/21)

MHB said:


> Can also be useful if you are trying to get the most out of a sparge, as soon as tannins start extracting the conductivith goes way up. Probably more useful to a commercial brewer where percents count, not so much for a home brewer.
> 
> There are lots of ways to spend time and money in this hobby...
> Mark



Might be useful in the role of sparge assessment for me as there's an issue somewhere as you mentioned yesterday regarding efficiency. 
Still haven't started that thread but I will in time.


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## mynameisrodney (21/6/21)

Well I bought one of those Beverage Dr pH meters last week, then forgot to use it on the weekend haha. Whoops.

That said, I used brewfather rather than Bru'n water to calculate how much acid that I needed, and got ~10% higher efficiency than previous batch. Can't say for sure that this is the cause as it was a different grain bill, and I'm still getting used to my Guten.


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## mynameisrodney (28/6/21)

Ok brewed again yesterday. I added the amount of acid given to me by Brewfather to get me to 5.2, even though Bru'n water was saying 4.6. 

15min into the mash I took a sample, cooled it, and measured 5.25 on my new Ph meter (Beverage doctor one in the end). 

I still for the life of me cant figure out what I was doing wrong with Bru'n water, but at this point I'm not going to spend any more time on it and will just make the switch.


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