# Rochefort 10



## Cloud Surfer (26/11/20)

Belgium dark strong ales are my all time favourite beers. This is going to be my first go at making a quad, though I will brew a ton of these, so it's really just the start of the journey. These are the beers I want to get good at, and will be the main reason I move over to AG eventually. For now I think I have an extract recipe that will make a nice beer in the Rochefort 10 style. But for anyone playing along at home who have made these before please feel free to offer any advice.

Recipe looks a bit like this-

4.5kg Briess Pilsen Light Extract
1.5kg Caramunich
500g Flaked Wheat
1.35kg D-180 Candi Syrup
200g Belgium Soft Blonde Sugar
45g Hallertau Mitt (60min)
45g Styrian Goldings (15min)
Wyeast 1762

As far as I can tell, that's pretty much how the Monks make it, and I'm only cheating by using Pilsner extract instead of doing it from grain. I'll steep the Caramunich and Flaked Wheat and get the boil going from there with the hop additions. Then add the Pilsen extract and sugars in the last 10 minutes. That should get me very close to the Rochefort numbers with an OG of 1.097 and ABV of 11%.

I'll make a big starter, and then pitch it at around 20C rising to about 24C by day 7. This seems one of the most critical parts of making a quad to get the proper ester profile. The fermentation schedule is one thing that will take me some brews to sort out. I'll keep it in primary for 3 to 4 weeks then do the pressure transfer thing into keg and bulk age at 12C for 3 to 6 months before transfer to bottle for bottle conditioning with a small, fresh yeast addition.

Anyway, that's the plan.


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## onemorecell (26/11/20)

Looks great!

I've got a recipe for St Bernardus ABT 12 that I've been meaning to brew, which looks quite similar - except for colour I've got Aromatic malt (570g) and Carafa III (300g). So my only question would be, are you going to get enough colour from the caramunich & candi syrup?

(also that's a lot of caramunich for my tastes)


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## Cloud Surfer (26/11/20)

Yes I’m not sure about the colour because I’ve never used 3 packets of D180 in a brew before. It doesn’t seem enough to get that deep Rochefort 10 colour, but I’ll soon find out.

They do use a lot of Caramunich. I have had to increase it a little in this recipe because I’m steeping the grains and don’t get the efficiency of mashing. 1kg would be standard if this was an AG recipe, but that would leave me low on the OG.


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## Cloud Surfer (26/11/20)

ABT 12 would be close to my favourite quad and no doubt I’ll have a look at that one sometime.


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## MHB (26/11/20)

I cant see the Flaked Wheat doing you any favours unless its mashed, you will extract a fair amount of Glucan and perhaps some proteins but suspect it might add a gluey flavour and quite a lot of haze.
Mark

Edit
Abbot 12, Westvleteren 12 are among the best beers I've ever had. Mind you the Westie Blond is ridiculously good.
M


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## Cloud Surfer (26/11/20)

MHB said:


> I cant see the Flaked Wheat doing you any favours unless its mashed, you will extract a fair amount of Glucan and perhaps some proteins but suspect it might add a gluey flavour and quite a lot of haze.
> Mark


Yes, I spent hours last night trying to figure this out. It’s an important part of the original recipe, so I don’t want to toss it out, but I am concerned about how the Flaked Wheat will proceed through steeping. I read it needs to be steeped/mashed with another grain, so I can’t even steep it by itself to see what happens.

How does mashing eliminate the chance of a gluey flavour compared to steeping?


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## kadmium (26/11/20)

Cloud Surfer said:


> Yes, I spent hours last night trying to figure this out. It’s an important part of the original recipe, so I don’t want to toss it out, but I am concerned about how the Flaked Wheat will proceed through steeping. I read it needs to be steeped/mashed with another grain, so I can’t even steep it by itself to see what happens.
> 
> How does mashing eliminate the chance of a gluey flavour compared to steeping?


I believe that you need malt with a Diastatic Power high enough to convert itself and also the wheat, otherwise you are essentially just making clag (old school glue) by steeping the wheat and extracting the glucan from the wheat. The enzymes and temps involved in mashing convert the glucan into fermentable sugars. I am sure MHB can explain in more details.

As far as I know, you would want Malted Wheat (that has been malted to allow self conversion) but unmalted, flaked cannot convert on it's own. The issue is that Caramunich is a crystal malt and therefore will not convert the wheat either. 

Raw wheat - Will need a cereal mash to help gelatinise
Flaked / Torrified Wheat - Has been gelatinised, and will convert in a mash with other base malts
Malted Wheat - Has been malted and will convert itself

I believe. So hence, you will essentially end up with the gluey / gelatinous aspects of the wheat and it won't contribute any sugars. Ditching it won't affect your OG, but I guess they are adding it to get some sort of body / mouthfeel?

This might be out there, but perhaps something like a Carapils would be better suited?


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## kadmium (26/11/20)

Cloud Surfer said:


> Yes I’m not sure about the colour because I’ve never used 3 packets of D180 in a brew before. It doesn’t seem enough to get that deep Rochefort 10 colour, but I’ll soon find out.
> 
> They do use a lot of Caramunich. I have had to increase it a little in this recipe because I’m steeping the grains and don’t get the efficiency of mashing. 1kg would be standard if this was an AG recipe, but that would leave me low on the OG.


A quick entry into Brewfather predicts the colour to be around 81 EBC which is black as black. The D180 syrup has an EBC of 355. But who knows, that's based on 21L


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## Cloud Surfer (26/11/20)

Between you guys and google I’ve figured out a lot in the last hour. I realise now the subtle difference between steeping and mini-mashing, and it seems I’ve really been mini-mashing this whole time.

As per Kadmium in #7 if I get some Pilsner malt and put the Flaked Wheat with it and do a mini-mash it will convert. Please tell me I’ve finally got that sorted.

Then I can drop the Caramunich back to 1kg which matches the original recipe and maintain the target OG.

I forgot about the colour in Brewfather and see now it gives me 81 EBC as well in 21L. That will work.


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## MHB (26/11/20)

Pretty much YES!
Use about 1-1.5kg of Pilsner malt, follow the mash temp/time for the original recipe (looks like the Candi Syrup Inc one)
Generally with a good base malt you can convert up to 40% adjunct, without having to bust a nut, should get enough out of the Pilsner and Wheat to replace one of your 1.5kg jars of LME (or close to)
As for the colour here is a link to how the colour is measured, I have done something similar in EBC and agree with his conclusions, just convert to sensible units. Nice to have a UV/Vis spectrometer under the bed, for those occasions when you really have to know .
D-180 or 354.6EBC is the as is colour, to get the diluted colour you need to know the volume start and finish and shove that in to C1V1=C2V2 (1kg is around 750mL)

Hope it goes well, one of the truly great beers.
Mark


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## Cloud Surfer (26/11/20)

Thanks Mark. I’m glad I posted and avoided making Rochefort 10 glue. That part was worrying me.

Anyway, being an AG recipe it says-

Mash-in 64C 60 minutes
Mash-out 77C 15 minutes

I’m not exactly sure how Mash-out works in AG, but if I hold the grain in 64C water for 45 minutes, then remove and rinse with 77C water, will that be good enough for this mini-mash?

One of the things I’ve really enjoyed so far has been using the different grains, and learning how they work. With everything I know now, I’m so close to just buying a Brewzilla or something and being done with it.


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## Cloud Surfer (26/11/20)

Another question. Recipe says do a 90 minute boil. What does 90 minutes achieve that 60 minutes doesn’t?


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## philrob (26/11/20)

Cloud Surfer said:


> Another question. Recipe says do a 90 minute boil. What does 90 minutes achieve that 60 minutes doesn’t?



MHB has answered this before in this forum: 


https://aussiehomebrewer.com/attachments/02_-_the_function_of_wort_boiling1-1-pdf.109697/


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## MHB (26/11/20)

Mash out is raising the temperature of the malt and water to a higher (77-80oC) to kill of most enzymes and improve the fluidity of the liquor. Basically it runs out quicker.
Easiest way is to just stir some boiling water into the mash until you reach your target temp. you can do the calculations if you like, they will tell you how much to add and are going to be very close.

90 minutes, well lots, you get more from your hops, you reduce the high molecular weight proteins, strips out more undesirable volatiles, develops more colour, concentrate the wort more... 90 minutes is my default boil for most styles, go back 20-30 years and 120 minutes was standard. 60only cuts the mustard if you are getting at least 8-10% evaporation in that time, without scorching the wort.
Mark

Decent read attached.

Ya know me too well philrob, just got there too fast.
M


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## Cloud Surfer (26/11/20)

That's good info on the boil timing.

So for the AG brewers, at the end of the Mash-out time do you remove the grain and rinse it before proceeding with the boil? So far with the mini-mash technique I've been using I remove the grain from the wort and rinse it with water at about 70C before discarding the grain.


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## MHB (26/11/20)

We are on a roll so 
Truth is it all depends how hard you are willing to work for more extract.
Mark


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## kadmium (26/11/20)

Cloud Surfer said:


> That's good info on the boil timing.
> 
> So for the AG brewers, at the end of the Mash-out time do you remove the grain and rinse it before proceeding with the boil? So far with the mini-mash technique I've been using I remove the grain from the wort and rinse it with water at about 70C before discarding the grain.


That's refered to as sparging. 

If you do Brew In A Bag, sparging is not required but some do. I would suggest the following:

Buy a Muslin bag or BIAB bag from home-brew shop. 

Heat water a few degrees above mashing temp, and add grains. Stir in and ensure no dough balls (balls of dry grain like when you add milo to cold milk)

Heat on the stove gently if required. Hit about 65c and then wrap in a towel, and let sit for an hour. 

Stir in some boiling water to hit the Mash Out temp or direct heat on the stove gently. Be careful not to scorch the bag or the grains. 

Lift bag out, and pop into another pot to drain. I squeezed the bag to get more liquid out. (Don't start a squeeze vs no squeeze debate)

Then I would set off doing the boil, adding hops etc.


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## kadmium (26/11/20)

kadmium said:


> That's refered to as sparging.
> 
> If you do Brew In A Bag, sparging is not required but some do. I would suggest the following:
> 
> ...


Oh and I would go about 2L per kilo of grain minimum, with 3kg of grains need about 6L plus 3L grain, go more if you can. BIG W sell 20L pots for $20


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## MHB (26/11/20)

Rinsing the wort from between the bits of malt isn't really the aim. remember just short of 1l of water is in each kg of malt. Thar water has the same gravity as the wort (say 1.050), by surrounding the grist with fresh hot water the sugars will migrate out of the grist and into the water, pushed by osmotic pressure until a new equilibrium is reached.
Traditional batch sparging allows this to happen a couple of times, obviously each batch will have a lower extract content than the one before.
Sparging is a slow even addition of hot water added to the top of the grain bed, as it migrates down it gets stronger and stronger, but the water behind it is at a lower gravity so it can extract more...
A modern "High Speed Lauter" is typically 120+ minutes to sparge effectively, and that is through a grain bed only 200-250mm deep.

Most home brewers just aren't that patient, so grab some quickly, cop the slightly reduced efficiency and just buy a bit more malt..
Mark


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## Cloud Surfer (26/11/20)

kadmium said:


> That's refered to as sparging.
> 
> If you do Brew In A Bag, sparging is not required but some do. I would suggest the following:
> 
> ...


That is exactly how I do it. Except for the Mash-out step which is new to me, and I drain my grain bag directly back into the pot then rinse with 70C water.


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## Cloud Surfer (26/11/20)

This is my steeping/mashing setup I used previously.


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## Cloud Surfer (26/11/20)

MHB said:


> Rinsing the wort from between the bits of malt isn't really the aim. remember just short of 1l of water is in each kg of malt. Thar water has the same gravity as the wort (say 1.050), by surrounding the grist with fresh hot water the sugars will migrate out of the grist and into the water, pushed by osmotic pressure until a new equilibrium is reached.
> Traditional batch sparging allows this to happen a couple of times, obviously each batch will have a lower extract content than the one before.
> Sparging is a slow even addition of hot water added to the top of the grain bed, as it migrates down it gets stronger and stronger, but the water behind it is at a lower gravity so it can extract more...
> A modern "High Speed Lauter" is typically 120+ minutes to sparge effectively, and that is through a grain bed only 200-250mm deep.
> ...


That's good to know as that was how I understood it.


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## kadmium (26/11/20)

Cloud Surfer said:


> This is my steeping/mashing setup I used previously.
> View attachment 119548
> View attachment 119549


Looks great. 

Once you go all grain the obsession really takes over.


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## Cloud Surfer (27/11/20)

Picked up 1kg of Pilsner today, so the recipe is looking good and keeps it right on the Rochefort 10 numbers.

4.5kg Briess Pilsen Light Extract
1kg Pilsner
1kg Caramunich
500g Flaked Wheat
1.35kg D-180 Candi Syrup
200g Belgium Soft Blonde Sugar
45g Hallertau Mitt (60min)
45g Styrian Goldings (15min)
Wyeast 1762 

For research purposes I picked up this as well-


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## Cloud Surfer (3/12/20)

I brewed this yesterday. Because I did a proper mini-mash I extracted more out of the grains than I usually do, so the OG was higher than expected. Ordinarily I wouldn’t worry about it, but seeing as I’m trying to match an actual beer, I added an extra one litre of water into the fermenter to bring it up to 22L total. The OG was then 1.098 which is right at the Rochefort 10 OG. Though I’ve seen it quoted between 1.096 and 1.100 (hence the 10 in the name). But one thing for certain is it’s 11.3% ABV. I’ll be interested to see what FG I get, which should be around 1.013.

Next time I’m already thinking about reducing the Pilsner extract so I can get it back to a 21L brew. The real test will be giving it six months and tasting with a Rochefort 10 to see what changes need making.

I thought the star of brew day was the D180 Candi Syrup. The wort was looking a very un-Rochefort muddy brown colour from the Caramunich. When I dropped the D180 in at the end it went a nice dark colour, like an opaque black with red tinges.


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## MHB (3/12/20)

I like the Amber Candi on Ice-cream to.
I know a lot of people say they make their own Belgian Candi but you never seen a home made get close to depth of flavour and colour intensity of the real thing. Well worth the investment if you are trying to make beer that good.

I'm pretty sure the Belgians have a SG related naming (numbering) convention that goes like 1.060 would be called a 6. So the 10 probably refers to and OG of 1.100, a 12 would be 1.120.
They also have some other very strange conventions, beers have to be in categories with defined OG ranges, there are even gaps between the ranges where its not legal to brew. they calculate excise on Kettle Full at the end of boil, you aren't allowed to add any adjunct after the kettle (doing so is really handy). The tax is basically on sugar, if you let bugs live in your beer that turn sugar into various acids, tough, you are still paying tax on the sugar.
Might have changed some under the EU, but if you are interested the Belgian Ale (#6) book in the Classic Beer Style Series covers it pretty thoroughly.
Most of the big beers we talk about are Category or Class S (Special) OG 1.062+
Mark


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## Cloud Surfer (3/12/20)

I’m personally not that interested in making my own Belgium Candi when the bought stuff is so good and probably makes or breaks the finished beer.


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## Cloud Surfer (8/12/20)

Ok, so I’m having my first problematic fermentation, which is disappointing because I’ve made bigger beers than this before.

This is my first yeast starter, so I’m pointing the finger there. I made a 3L starter from one smack pack, then stirred and aerated for 48 hours then chilled in fridge for 24 hours. I poured off the liquid, which was somewhat drinkable, which left a decent sized cake of yeast that I pitched. So I was comfortable that everything proceeded as expected, but who knows.

OG was 1.098, SG is now 1.026 and hardly moving with 3-4 bubbles through the airlock a minute. 1.013 seems a long way off.

After a few days I started ramping the temp from 20C by 1C per day and I’m at 24C now and plan to leave it there.

I have a good pack of dried yeast I could rehydrate then pitch. That seems the easiest thing to try. I could dump out the valve on the bottom of the conical fermenter and make another yeast starter, though I’ve not done that before.


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## kadmium (8/12/20)

Cloud Surfer said:


> Ok, so I’m having my first problematic fermentation, which is disappointing because I’ve made bigger beers than this before.
> 
> This is my first yeast starter, so I’m pointing the finger there. I made a 3L starter from one smack pack, then stirred and aerated for 48 hours then chilled in fridge for 24 hours. I poured off the liquid, which was somewhat drinkable, which left a decent sized cake of yeast that I pitched. So I was comfortable that everything proceeded as expected, but who knows.
> 
> ...


So you wanted your 1.096 beer to be finished in 4 days? 

Airlock activity is not a sign of fermentation health, and a beer that big will need a few weeks to reach terminal gravity in my experience. 

Mead goes from 1.100 to 1.010 in about 3 weeks using wine yeast. 

The starter is not the issue young padawan, patience is. Its been 5 days, don't dump the yeast colony and start again. They are pickling themselves, in an inhospitable environment. Its like the end of the Christmas party. Pretend it's just hit midnight, most of the good people have gone home its the last determined ones left who will party into 4am. 

Let it ride, give it a week or two and see how it turned out. 

Also 1.013 seems like a pretty low FG for an extract kit, it might finish up towards 1.018 or so.


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## Cloud Surfer (8/12/20)

Na, I’m not in any hurry as I was planning 3 to 4 weeks in primary. Just that the last few days it’s dropped 1 point per day, which is not what I’ve seen before so far out from FG. Only reason I posted was to get ahead of the game in case I had to spend the next few days getting a starter ready to re-pitch. I’ll just chillax for now.


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## MHB (8/12/20)

You are a fair way into the ferment, Alcohol is up to 9.2% (12% max) and more importantly your apparent attenuation is getting close to 74%. Your yeast tops out around 77% so no big surprise its slowing down.
Either patience or you could go as high as 24oC or swirl the fermenter a bit to try and rouse the yeast a bit, or patience.
Mark


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## sp0rk (8/12/20)

MHB said:


> I like the Amber Candi on Ice-cream to.
> I know a lot of people say they make their own Belgian Candi but you never seen a home made get close to depth of flavour and colour intensity of the real thing. Well worth the investment if you are trying to make beer that good.


I remember you saying years ago that you wanted to make a candi sugar using fresh cane syrup
Did you ever get around to trying this?


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## MHB (8/12/20)

I did indeed, there was a guy with a cane crusher at the local markets crushing sugarcane and selling the juice.
Got 1 liter and started boiling it down, by the time it got black it had a strong molasses flavour, with a bit of an acrid burnt protein background flavour sort of bitter metallic, not nice
I guess that's why they vacuum the juice and filter it before sending it to the crystallisers.

Meh cant win them all
Mark


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## Cloud Surfer (21/12/20)

I thought I would post an update. Mainly because it frustrates me to read so many threads like these on the internet that never have a conclusion, so you don’t know how it turned out, or learn from what worked and what didn’t.

Anyway, the SG did seem to get stuck at 1.024 for three days before I fixed it. I made another 3L starter using a pack of M41 Belgium Ale yeast which has high attenuation and alcohol tolerance. I pitched it in and airlock activity took off again and the SG started coming down.

It’s been almost 3 weeks in the fermenter now, and the airlock is still bubbling away, which I’ve never seen this far along before, and the SG is at 1.014 which I’m more than happy about. That’s 11% ABV now, which is so close to the Rochefort number. So the plan is still to leave it in primary for 4 weeks before transferring to keg and conditioning for another 3 months at 12C.

Next time for this beer I will make a bigger starter, and go back to my method of adding the sugars into the fermenter as fermentation is slowing down. Hopefully that will avoid having to do this re-pitch thing for a stubborn fermentation.


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## YAPN (22/12/20)

Cloud Surfer said:


> For research purposes I picked up this as well-


Slightly off-topic.
I was given a bottle of Achel Bruin Bier Extra and I put it in the fridge. But now I'm thinking it maybe best at room temp. (looking like a cool Xmas in Melb). Anyway...
Do you chill your Strong Belgians before serving?


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## MHB (22/12/20)

Probably 10-12oC is ideal, lots of the better makers put a recommended serving temperature on the back of the bottle somewhere.
Just called in to see Jason at the international beer collector put a few extra tasty Belgians in the fridge,
Should have gone tomorrow, there is a new container arriving with some Westvleteren's in it, Ok not cheap but once a year isn't too self-indulgent is it?
Mark


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## Cloud Surfer (22/12/20)

YAPN said:


> Slightly off-topic.
> I was given a bottle of Achel Bruin Bier Extra and I put it in the fridge. But now I'm thinking it maybe best at room temp. (looking like a cool Xmas in Melb). Anyway...
> Do you chill your Strong Belgians before serving?


This is dear to my heart. As an aside, almost everyone drinks white wine too cold and red wine too hot. I put my decanter in the fridge to cool before decanting and drinking my big reds.

But yes don’t drink your big Belgium’s at fridge temperature. It puts the aroma’s to sleep and a lot of what we taste is through our nose.

I see no problem in keeping the beer in the fridge, but when you serve it, pour it into an appropriate style glass and let it warm up a little in the glass. Then enjoy it as it develops in the glass with changing temperature.

I have a big beer drinking buddy who likes to warm the bottle out of the fridge before serving it, and I don’t like that approach. I think you miss flavours in an already warm beer versus starting off a bit chilled and seeing it develop in the glass.


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## Cloud Surfer (22/12/20)

MHB said:


> Should have gone tomorrow, there is a new container arriving with some Westvleteren's in it, Ok not cheap but once a year isn't too self-indulgent is it?
> Mark


What is this crazy thing you speak of? Westvleteren is famous for only being sold at the front gate.


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## philrob (22/12/20)

Yup, MHB is on the mark! The gentleman running International Beer Collector gave a presentation at our brew club some time ago. He does have access to some amazing beers.


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## MHB (22/12/20)

Cloud Surfer said:


> What is this crazy thing you speak of? Westvleteren is famous for only being sold at the front gate.


Unless you know people willing to get in the queue for you... There is a bit on the grey market.
First time I got to taste Westy (one off the bucket list) Jason brought 2 bottles of each of the three they make, a religious experience.
Had to make do with a couple of bottles of Abbot 12, a Trippel also from St Bernardus (the little brewery down the street from the Abby) and a couple of other Jason recommended.
Not quite the high mass, but close.
Mark


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## Cloud Surfer (22/12/20)

I’ve not had a Westy before. I have had lots of Abt 12 over many years, and it’s probably my all time favourite beer. Rumour has it that they are clones of each other, so I hope I’m not missing out on too much. I might just line up at the Westy gate one day to say I’ve done it.


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## MHB (22/12/20)

Love to do that.
St Bernardus used to make Westy under license for commercial sale. The new Abbot (pretty old now) decided they really should be a monastery not a business, so he pulled the license and now they only sell enough to pay for the upkeep on the Abby.
St B, had the yeast and the recipe so... a new name and label.
Side by side they aren't quite the same. Both are excellent (or any hyperbole you like here) but the Westy won by a hair.
Actually I liked the Pale the best - that's the one the monks get to drink at table so I guess they try harder.

If you do get the chance, make sure you phone ahead, you need to give your cars license plate number (no no fax, email, text..... just the landline). If you haven't booked there is a fair chance of missing out or getting a knockback.
Which would bite big time.
Mark


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## Cloud Surfer (22/12/20)

I really like the history surrounding these Belgian breweries. A lot of things have to change in the world before any plans like lining up at Westvleteren come into fruition.


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## Cloud Surfer (20/3/21)

As a new brewer the most frustrating thing I find is people not reporting back how things turned out.

So I transferred to a keg and that's been aging almost 3 months now. I had enough left in the fermenter for 2 bottles. I tried one bottle at one month and it was terrible. I had a glass and poured the rest down the drain. I've opened the second bottle now after three months and it is much better. I can see the Rochefort 10 flavours coming through, however it's still not carbonated which is obviously affecting the finished flavour. 

I will bottle this soon and add some bottling yeast to get it to carbonate. So it's a work in progress but heading in the right direction.


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