# Kegging For Beginners



## Georgedgerton (6/12/09)

Having now had a few brews in kegs (after 40 years of bottling - not sure whether I'm bragging or apologizing) I can definitely recommend to beginners DON'T force carb your kegs. Go down the slow road, gas them up at serving pressure, wait about 10 days and hey walla no problems, perfect beer every pour.

I hear howls of dismay from all of those brewers who have have been force carbing their brews for yonks without problems, and it is true once you have an experienced handle on things you can do what you like and get away with it. 

For sure I am not the first newbie kegger to get it all wrong and believe me until you know exactly what your doing, have a few bottles in the fridge to keep you happy and save yourself some grief by gassing those kegs at serving pressure.


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## raven19 (6/12/09)

Very valid, as long as you have the time to wait!  

I tend to gas up at serbing pressure also most of the time too.


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## Georgedgerton (6/12/09)

Without boring everyone for too long, the other thing I think is worthwhile saying is with your first attempts at kegging there is also a fair chance you haven't quite got some other aspects of your system right either. Example: line length X diameter.

So often what happens (particularly if you have the forced carbonation wrong) you then frantically start lurching all over the place, screwing the tits of the regulator, letting gas out the keg, putting gas back in the keg, stuffing with line length and finally contemplate suicide. Fortunately most just get on the forum and annoy the bejesus out of those who know.

So in all, if you carb at serving pressure then you know you at least have that bit right and if you still have issues you can start looking elsewhere before slashing your wrists.

Hope my experience has been of some help out there.


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## pyrobrewer (6/12/09)

*Force Conditioning (Carbonation) *​Rather than not recommending force carbonation, (I prefer education to fear motivation) it may be better for a beginner to learn about the process first and thereby reduce possible problems. I think what you are trying to say is not to use *excessive pressure* during force carbonation - always good advice. ​I hope these few tips help.​If you have a fermenter that can be pressurised you could close the valve with about one degree plato (say 1.004 of SG) left for the fermentation and force carb with "natural " CO2 . Ross has and adjustable PRV with a gas connect and dial pressure gage http://www.craftbrewer.com/shop/details.asp?PID=1069 so you can dial in the correct pressure. Bottle with a counter pressure bottle filler or keg. I conceed not that many home brewers will have stainless conicals that are pressure rated.​When you bottle you add a measured dose of fermentables to your beer to allow the residual yeast to re-commence fermentation in the bottle and create the carbonation in a bottle-conditioned beer.This method is tried and true but completely ignores the following factors:​
1) Yeast viability. After fermenting your beer, especially if it's a higher gravity beer of 1.060 or more a lenghty lagering your yeast may be tired out and might not be up to the task.​2) Sediment. Good for you, but it's not pretty. This is probably the single biggest turn-off to the average non-educated beer drinker. Some people dont like their beers to look like cream of chicken soup.​3) History.Some home brewers shudder at the idea of deviating from the Reinheitsgebot (German purity law of 1516 ) and would rather prime by krausening.​4) Fermentation temperature profile. This is the amount of CO2 that is already disolved in the green beer post fermentation. This depends on the temperature profile of the ferment.​5) Carbonation level required for the beer style being produced usualy expressed in terms of volumes​6) It is very important that the beer has completely finished fermenting (stable SG) and there are no residual fermentable sugars left. Bottling too early, typically results in excessive carbonation, or even bottle bombs. You should also be aware that some beers,especialy darker or other full-bodied beers, may contain some long-chain sugars (dextrins limit dextrins) that will ferment very slowly, leading to a gradual increase in carbonation over a period of months.​
Force carbonating will allow you to hit your desired level *every time*, without exception - If done correctly ​There is usualy a tendancy for homebrewers to want to carbonate ASAP. While this can be achieved very rapidly indeed, it totaly ignores the other very important thing that is happening at the same time - MATURATION. This is the developing and mellowing of flavours produced during fermentation and takes much longer to achieve - perhaps 2 - 8 weeks. So if our beer is going to take this long to develop why the rush to carbonate?​There are two methods of force conditioning (carbonating) your beer in a Homebrew keg. The patient method (recommended) and the impatient method (she'll be right no worries, I'm thirsty NOW - you know the drill). The patient method will always give you the most consistant results. It's based strictly on physics so you can do it over and over and achieve the same results every time.​The amount of CO that will dissolve into your beer is dependent mostly on two factors, temperature and pressure. This is a temperature pressure equalibrium - for a given pressure, the amont of CO2 dissolved increases with lowering temperature. For a given temperature the amount of gas increases with increased pressure.Equilibrium means the same amount of CO is diffusing out of the beer as is being dissolved back into solution.​Generally ales tend to be carbonated at the lower end, lagers higher. The amount of CO dissolved in beer is most often referred to in terms of volumes. Volumes of CO are defined as the volume the CO gas would occupy if it were removed from the beer at atmospheric pressure and 0C, compared to the original volume of beer. Most beers in Australia contain roughly 2.4-2.7 volumes of carbon dioxide, or about 5 odd grams per litre. This means that if all the carbon dioxide in one litre of beer were expanded at 0C and at one atmosphere of pressure, its volume would be 2.4 -2.7 litres. Try it with a stubbie and a balloon! Use VB that way you wont waste good beer :lol:​​*The Patient Method*​*
*1) Clean and sanitise your keg thoroughly. I always purge the Keg with a little CO to exclude oxygen.​2) Gently rack your beer into the keg and filter if required.Dont just open the tap, use a tube to fill you keg from the bottom up.​3) Replace the lid on the keg and re-pressurise again to say 10 psi, let it sit for a minute, bleed the pressure off again to re-purge (also known as 'burping' your keg).This step is about reducing oxygen exposure of beer.​4) Determine the temperature that your beer will be during carbonation, this is usualy going to be the temperature that the beer will be served at (unless you have lots of fridges) and set your regulator accordingly.For a temperature of about 2 Deg.c, 10 or 11 PSI is all that is required! It will reach its saturation point if the temperature is right, and the regulator will shut down altogether and never over-carbonate. Allowing sufficient maturing time will allow plenty of time for conditioning. I have a chart I use if this will help anyone? Let me know, its not on this PC, I can post it tomorrow. It has PSI and KPA, Farenheight and Celcius.​If your dispensing pressure is the same as the equalibrium pressure required for the selected beer style and your system, then you are indeed a lucky brewer.​​*The Impatient Method*​*
*1) Follow steps 1, 2 and 3 from the patient method and chill to desired temperature - Remember beer will not absorb sufficient CO at room temperature without excessive pressure.​2) Set your regulator to (insert unnesessarily high number here) psi and pressurise your keg until you hear/feel the flow of gas stop, and shake/roll your keg vigorously for 5 minutes. Alternatively lay your keg on its side and gently rock the keg, if you have the gas entering at the bottom you will hear the gas rushing into the keg. Stop rocking and soon the gas will stop, rock again and gas will once again flow. I'm sure a cursory search of this site will show many methods like this. Rocking increases the liquid/gas interface suface area where gas adsorption happens.​3) Repeat step 2 until:​a) Your beer will receive no more carbonation at this pressure setting at which time it will be over-carbonated.​b)You die of a massive heart attack. B)​c) You fluke the correct carbonation level. Hey-it happens quite often with practice right?​Obviously this method should only be used as a last resort. Even if it doesn't cause you grievous bodily harm, it leads to rough handling of your precious homebrew and uncertain carbonation levels.​Remember that the gas can be connected to the black beverage disconnect (out) for cornies (you will need a black connector ) John guest connectors make it easy if you are swapping. I have a t-piece on the gas line with a black and a grey as requierd so that the CO bubbles up through the beer.​You can also use a carbonation keg lid that has a 0.5 micron stainless steel air-stone at the bottom of the keg to introduce the CO as a very fine stream of bubbles that have a larger surface area, that will rise slowly in the keg and adsorb much faster.Carbonation time with the carbonation keg lid can be reduced to as little as one hour at the correct temperature!​A big word of caution here - if your cylinder runs out, beer can return via the gas line and ruin your regulator. This method is called reverse booting and has ruined many an expensive regulator. Fit a non return valve in you gas line to be safe. The Harris gauges I have are the 802cdr2 dual pressure and are supposed to have a built in non return valve - I still fitted a JG NRV​If you find you need to go from primary to drinking kegged beer in less than two weeks, you need to sort your life out  and get a little further ahead with you brews.​


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## benjohnsonsa (6/12/09)

My goodness! 3 posts and you bang out that beauty!

Nice!

(ignore my post count, i lost my login/password from years ago!)


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## MarkBastard (6/12/09)

I personally think that recommending force carbing to beginners stupid. I wish people hadn't recommended it to me.

There's no way for a beginner to really know what is under carbed, what's over carbed, what line lengths are too long, what other issues cause foaming etc.

Better off they get an accurate temperature measurement, work out what level of carbonation they want, set the reg to the right level, and wait 10 days. Then you're pretty damn sure the keg is carbed right and you can if nothing else reduce the serving pressure right down, fill a glass, and see what you think. Then it's about choosing the right line length that allows the desired pour speed at the carbonation pressure.


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## pyrobrewer (6/12/09)

Ben-SA said:


> My goodness! 3 posts and you bang out that beauty!
> 
> Nice!
> 
> (ignore my post count, i lost my login/password from years ago!)




Actualy, this was my first post!


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## pyrobrewer (6/12/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I personally think that recommending force carbing to beginners stupid. I wish people hadn't recommended it to me.
> 
> There's no way for a beginner to really know what is under carbed, what's over carbed, what line lengths are too long, what other issues cause foaming etc.
> 
> Better off they get an accurate temperature measurement, work out what level of carbonation they want, set the reg to the right level, and wait 10 days. Then you're pretty damn sure the keg is carbed right and you can if nothing else reduce the serving pressure right down, fill a glass, and see what you think. Then it's about choosing the right line length that allows the desired pour speed at the carbonation pressure.



Hi 
You are mostly correct, however I think you are mixing Force carbonation with reticulation balancing. Different issues to be solved independantly - Yes?
Actualy, I belive I mentioned temperature and pressure in my reply to the original post. What you are realy saying is that you think beginers are stupid - it all comes down to availability of information.
Saying a beginer cant handle the truth is a just a little bit elitist. 
A beginner can at least be educated in the mechanics of the process, then he can *KNOW* rather than go through some sort of right of passage that leads to arbitatry over gassed or under gassed beer until he has paid his due? Knowlege is power - empower you self! 
Let me give you an example 
A newbie fails at some task...
He askes a question... 
And is told... "I personally think that recommending force carbing to beginners stupid" 

How does this help?

Rather than simply increasing your post count you could perhaps help the guy! 
Please understand I dont want to start a flame war.
What I do want is for detailed explanation, open to peer review for questions asked by anyone.


As for other factors, reducing the variables will help you target issues, I think. If you have a baseline for carbonation levels it will tend to highlight balancing issues. 
I was a cellerman in a pub that had a total of 1.6Km of beer line, no balance issues, no carb issues! - cleaned every week (mostly while the band was packing up saturday night /sunday morning)6 bars.
10 days is somewhat arbitary and does not take flavour develpoment issues into account, but of course could be perfectly ok for your situation. 
Brewing is a long chain of compromises, we choose what works for us and the quality we will accept.


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## MarkBastard (6/12/09)

I'm sorry but I didn't read your original post and I'm not going to read much of that one either. If you can't say what you need to say in as few words as possible you have a communication issue IMO.

To clarify, my point was that the 'Ross method' etc of force carbing in 50 seconds is great but should not be recommended for people new to kegging.

You can not read any amount of books and know instinctively whether a beer is overcarbed / undercarbed or you have an issue with temperatures of glass / beer line or beer line length.

I am not implying that people new to kegging are 'stupid'. They just lack in experience (this should REALLY go without saying).


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## pyrobrewer (6/12/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I'm sorry but I didn't read your original post and I'm not going to read much of that one either. If you can't say what you need to say in as few words as possible you have a communication issue IMO.
> 
> To clarify, my point was that the 'Ross method' etc of force carbing in 50 seconds is great but should not be recommended for people new to kegging.
> 
> ...



Carbonation is NOT instinctive but can be learned Perhaps you should read the post, do I have a communication issue, or you a reading limit. How many words will you give me? I'll be happy to try again given your limits.


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## fergi (6/12/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I'm sorry but I didn't read your original post and I'm not going to read much of that one either. If you can't say what you need to say in as few words as possible you have a communication issue IMO.
> 
> To clarify, my point was that the 'Ross method' etc of force carbing in 50 seconds is great but should not be recommended for people new to kegging.
> 
> ...


 

probably valid points both sides of the debate, i however from personal experience ""i should say lack of it" tried the forced carb idea the same day i set my kegs up, bad move although i could drink and play with my taps, regulator, fridge temp, i had no idea WTF i was doing, i had foam everywhere and not much beer but after a week or so i went back to square one, set temp/pressure leave it for a week and all was good, easy, but then for the guys that know their stuff i am sure they can get away with it.
cheers
fergi


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## MarkBastard (6/12/09)

pyrobrewer said:


> Carbonation is NOT instinctive but can be learned



That is exactly my point.


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## big_dazza27 (6/12/09)

I'm only new to kegging. Just kegged my 5th beer.

I've used the "Ross method" everytime and never had an issue apart from beer being under-carbed which is easily fixed by cranking the gas back up and rocking for another 10-15 seconds and leaving for another hour.

I've only had to re-carb once on a couple of beers.

All my beers have ended up in the glass with a nice head and usually has about 3-4mm left on the last mouthful.


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## Spartan 117 (6/12/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I personally think that recommending force carbing to beginners stupid. I wish people hadn't recommended it to me.
> 
> There's no way for a beginner to really know what is under carbed, what's over carbed, what line lengths are too long, what other issues cause foaming etc.



I wouldn't go so far as to call it stupid, it's up to the person kegging how they go about it and it is down to the advice giver and their experience with the situation wether they'll recomend it or not. I have just finished my kegging setup and have a beer in the fridge ready to be my first to be kegged and will be going the forced carbed way. 

Also there's a good worksheet (excel) from CrozDogs here that I've attached that apparently is of great use when balancing a system and was recomended to me by Skippy. 

As far as "beginners" knowing wether or not something is over or undercarbed is just not true in every case, I mean you can overcarb your beer in the bottle and vice versa and if you dont know if soemthing is overcarbed then maybe brewing isn't for you, I reckon it's more of an "ok, I have a problem but don't know how to fix it" than anything else.

In any case I really don't think we should discourage people from using certain methods, as we are all aware what works for one person might not work for the next and if something does go wrong then there is always answers from all of you great blokes out on the interwebs. 

Aaron 

View attachment co2_and_keg_balancing_v1.1.xls


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## MarkBastard (6/12/09)

Spartan 117 said:


> I wouldn't go so far as to call it stupid, it's up to the person kegging how they go about it and it is down to the advice giver and their experience with the situation wether they'll recomend it or not. I have just finished my kegging setup and have a beer in the fridge ready to be my first to be kegged and will be going the forced carbed way.
> 
> Also there's a good worksheet (excel) from CrozDogs here that I've attached that apparently is of great use when balancing a system and was recomended to me by Skippy.
> 
> ...



You haven't kegged a beer in your life? Why are you giving advice?


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## pyrobrewer (6/12/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> That is exactly my point.



Does this mean you read the post? 

Any method including the "Ross method" needs to obey the laws of physics in this neck of the universe. 
No more no less 
One hour or 50 second carbonation is fine - It will just be green carbonated beer until sufficient maturation time has passed

Read my post then my Sig


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## MarkBastard (6/12/09)

pyrobrewer said:


> Does this mean you read the post?
> 
> Any method including the "Ross method" needs to obey the laws of physics in this neck of the universe.
> No more no less
> ...



I read the short post that I quoted. I will NOT read your long posts above. Your short posts aren't making much sense and I don't expect your long ones to be any better.

For example this little gem above, what the hell are you on about? Laws of physics? What law? Why are you bringing it up? It is well known that if you set the right pressure for the right beer style at your chosen beer temperature, you will carb your beer to the correct level over a 1-2 week period. Once the beer is carbed to this correct level, it will stop. It will not overcarb, even if you let it sit for another 1-2 weeks.

On the other hand with force carbing, it is VERY easy to over or under carb a beer. I mean it doesn't even take into consideration the temperature you're serving your beer at or the style of the beer. It's just a rough as guts way to get some level of carbonation going quickly. It's great but I would never recommend it to people new to kegging and I really wish no one recommended it to me when I was new to kegging.


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## Spartan 117 (6/12/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> You haven't kegged a beer in your life? Why are you giving advice?



Because that's what forums are for.... I passed on a worksheet that was suggested to me and said that if somone has problems with a method then there are people here that can help. It's not as though I'm telling anyone how to actually go through the whole process of kegging. 

Aaron


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## MarkBastard (6/12/09)

It's become apparently to me (after skimming the pseudo-intellectual crap above) that pyrobrewer has misread or misunderstood the OP and is in fact recommending the exact same strategy as the OP and myself.


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## MarkBastard (6/12/09)

Spartan 117 said:


> Because that's what forums are for.... I passed on a worksheet that was suggested to me and said that if somone has problems with a method then there are people here that can help. It's not as though I'm telling anyone how to actually go through the whole process of kegging.
> 
> Aaron



I would personally suggest you use that worksheet to carb your keg the slow way for the first time and then once you know your system back to front take some short cuts. Particularly if you have multiple kegs and you have a slow-carbed keg as a control handy for when you force-carb, using for example the Ross method, the second keg.


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## Georgedgerton (6/12/09)

Being responsible for starting the original post I would say the response has been unexpected. Keep in mind my original post was to:

Offer my own experience as a beginner.

Give other beginners a stable starting point from which they can progress.

In no way was I telling other folk in an arrogant manner how to go about it.

Further more some folk may be impressed with Pyro's knowledge, however no matter how good this may be he has no idea of how many beginners (including myself) approach their first kegging attempts. Personally I don't care if he thinks I'm thick as two short planks, pages of info don't compensate for a stable starting point.

So there we have it, I know some may relate to what I was trying to get across, others won't.

By the way, no hard feelings towards Pyro, were just approaching an old problem from different perspectives.

George


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## Spartan 117 (6/12/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I would personally suggest you use that worksheet to carb your keg the slow way for the first time and then once you know your system back to front take some short cuts. Particularly if you have multiple kegs and you have a slow-carbed keg as a control handy for when you force-carb, using for example the Ross method, the second keg.



I'll see how i go, i haven't gotten myself a tap and the LHBS wont have them in for a while so the slow way may be the go and then balance when i have the tap, have you used the ross method is so how did you find it, the blokes at the LHBS say its the way to go ?

Cheers 

Aaron


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## pyrobrewer (6/12/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I read the short post that I quoted. I will NOT read your long posts above. Your short posts aren't making much sense and I don't expect your long ones to be any better.
> 
> For example this little gem above, what the hell are you on about? Laws of physics? What law? Why are you bringing it up? It is well known that if you set the right pressure for the right beer style at your chosen beer temperature, you will carb your beer to the correct level over a 1-2 week period. Once the beer is carbed to this correct level, it will stop. It will not overcarb, even if you let it sit for another 1-2 weeks.
> 
> On the other hand with force carbing, it is VERY easy to over or under carb a beer. I mean it doesn't even take into consideration the temperature you're serving your beer at or the style of the beer. It's just a rough as guts way to get some level of carbonation going quickly. It's great but I would never recommend it to people new to kegging and I really wish no one recommended it to me when I was new to kegging.



Just read the post! You are arguing my point and dont know it- thanks but not needed. The short posts rely on your understanding the thread which you seem proud to not read?!

What do you think force carbing is? It doesnt matter what the pressure is. Just that is not bottle conditioned - do you have another definition for force carbonation that excludes the facts we are both promoting? If so what do you call it? 

Just new here please other posters am I feeding a troll? No foul intended Mark Bastard dont get cranky just read the post.


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## MarkBastard (6/12/09)

Spartan 117 said:


> I'll see how i go, i haven't gotten myself a tap and the LHBS wont have them in for a while so the slow way may be the go and then balance when i have the tap, have you used the ross method is so how did you find it, the blokes at the LHBS say its the way to go ?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Aaron



I use the Ross method all the time now and it's great. I also used it for my very first keg (because of near unanimous recommendation) and I really wish I didn't.

If you don't have a tap yet I'd recommend you get one of those bronco / picnic taps. They're cheap and they'll be handy anyway for you in the future as they're good taps to learn about stuff like this with. The whole tap sits inside your fridge / chest freezer and so the whole tap should stay at the same temperature as your keg. Because of this you will not likely have any heat related foaming issues, any foaming issues will most likely be that the keg itself has a carbonation issue, or they your serving pressure is too high for the line length / internal diameter.

The way I use the Ross method now is to try and get the keg about 80% carbed, and then I set back to normal pressure and let sit for a few days. 80% is enough to get a quick 'sample' of your beer but much less chance of overcarbing. The beer then hits 100% carbed in the next few days. You can take a sample each day if you want to see how a beer progresses as it reaches carbonation and also benefits for maturation.


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## MarkBastard (6/12/09)

pyrobrewer said:


> Just read the post! You are arguing my point and dont know it- thanks but not needed. The short posts rely on your understanding the thread which you seem proud to not read?!
> 
> What do you think force carbing is? It doesnt matter what the pressure is. Just that is not bottle conditioned - do you have another definition for force carbonation that excludes the facts we are both promoting? If so what do you call it?
> 
> Just new here please other posters am I feeding a troll? No foul intended Mark Bastard dont get cranky just read the post.



You read the OP, you're the confused one mate.

The OP is talking about force carbing ala the Ross method, which correlates to your second example. It takes 50 seconds and is what I have not been recommending to a new kegger.

The OP is talking about the 'slow road' which correlates to your first example.


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## Spartan 117 (6/12/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I use the Ross method all the time now and it's great. I also used it for my very first keg (because of near unanimous recommendation) and I really wish I didn't.
> 
> If you don't have a tap yet I'd recommend you get one of those bronco / picnic taps. They're cheap and they'll be handy anyway for you in the future as they're good taps to learn about stuff like this with. The whole tap sits inside your fridge / chest freezer and so the whole tap should stay at the same temperature as your keg. Because of this you will not likely have any heat related foaming issues, any foaming issues will most likely be that the keg itself has a carbonation issue, or they your serving pressure is too high for the line length / internal diameter.
> 
> The way I use the Ross method now is to try and get the keg about 80% carbed, and then I set back to normal pressure and let sit for a few days. 80% is enough to get a quick 'sample' of your beer but much less chance of overcarbing. The beer then hits 100% carbed in the next few days. You can take a sample each day if you want to see how a beer progresses as it reaches carbonation and also benefits for maturation.



Yeah i plan on getting the picnic tap, considering the ammount of cash I've spent on the whole kegging setup I cant quite justify the extra cash on a "good" tap when the bronco one will do just fine

Cheers for the advice Mark

Aaron


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## Wonderwoman (6/12/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> The way I use the Ross method now is to try and get the keg about 80% carbed, and then I set back to normal pressure and let sit for a few days. 80% is enough to get a quick 'sample' of your beer but much less chance of overcarbing. The beer then hits 100% carbed in the next few days. You can take a sample each day if you want to see how a beer progresses as it reaches carbonation and also benefits for maturation.



how exactly do you get the keg 80% carbed?

I ask because I'm a kegging beginner. I've just been trying to set up my first kegged beer today (but had some issues) and I was planning on using the 'ross method.' after reading this thread, I think it makes sense to go with the slow carbonation method when starting out, but I really wanted to be able to serve beer on tap at a party next saturday


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## pyrobrewer (6/12/09)

Bruce2 said:


> Being responsible for starting the original post I would say the response has been unexpected. Keep in mind my original post was to:
> 
> Offer my own experience as a beginner.
> 
> ...



Actualy I was impressed with your first post which is why i tried to help. not sure how it went wrong! I dont think you are thick. I didnt start the stupid thing. The stable starting point you refer to is in my reply to you first post - knowledge is power. Isnt that the point of this forum share and learn 
Force carb and low carb are degrees of the same thing. I stand by that post, you may percieve this as arrogant... Im not offended. The post was not private information, anyone can take or leave it or more importantly I welcome all to peer review it and make it better perhaps turn it into a less "arrogant Post "


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## porky4776 (6/12/09)

I tried the ross method and it didnt work(mostly my fault I think), however I came across another method that sat better with me, and seemed a fair compromise. Involved setting things to serving pressure, and then sitting infront of a good show, and gently rocking the keg fro 1/2 hr, then leaving at serving pressure in the fridge overnight. Worked a charm for my second keg, and as you are only at serving pressure, the chance of overcarbing is next to none. Not quite as fast, but a lot less risk of overcarbonation.


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## Bribie G (6/12/09)

I have a 3 keg kegerator setup and don't use a 'rocking' method, I just leave them on about 150 kPa for only three or four days, which gasses them up nicely. I've never had to wait the week or 10 days as often touted. Then (because they are all on the same pressure) I drop the pressure and burp the kegs that are being currently served and this brings them down to a good pouring rate without too much foaming.


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## MarkBastard (6/12/09)

wonderwoman said:


> how exactly do you get the keg 80% carbed?
> 
> I ask because I'm a kegging beginner. I've just been trying to set up my first kegged beer today (but had some issues) and I was planning on using the 'ross method.' after reading this thread, I think it makes sense to go with the slow carbonation method when starting out, but I really wanted to be able to serve beer on tap at a party next saturday



Just do the first part for less time. When you turn the gass off and keep rocking the pressure should end up dropping more than it says in the guide. No hard and fast rule to hit 80% unfortunately. I'd rather hit 50% then 105% though.


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## MarkBastard (6/12/09)

blackbeerlove said:


> I tried the ross method and it didnt work(mostly my fault I think), however I came across another method that sat better with me, and seemed a fair compromise. Involved setting things to serving pressure, and then sitting infront of a good show, and gently rocking the keg fro 1/2 hr, then leaving at serving pressure in the fridge overnight. Worked a charm for my second keg, and as you are only at serving pressure, the chance of overcarbing is next to none. Not quite as fast, but a lot less risk of overcarbonation.



Yeah I've tried that one too. Didn't have the patience for it personally and I was worried about the beer warming up in the process.

Bribie, that's another method as well. You can deliberately put it at higher pressure and just leave it. It will carb faster than sitting it at serving pressure. There is still a risk of overcarbing doing it this way. That said it is much lower risk and if you were going to carb at serving pressure there's nothing wrong with cranking up the pressure during the first two days to cut down the time.

All still things I would not recommend to a new kegger.


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## bill_gill85 (6/12/09)

Can someone please explain the difference between an "overcarbed" beer and a highly carbonated beer? 

Surely the same beer on two different systems, one could be considered overcarbed & one be highly carbonated?

Isn't bleeding off excess pressure just accomodating the line length between disconnect & tap, ie to keep CO2 in solution, it needs to be dispensed at a specific pressure & temperature & then the line length (or compensator) provides resistance to create an acceptable pour?

I have read the AHB article on balancing a draught system & am led to believe that this is the case, so perhaps a compensator is a newbies best friend.


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## NickB (6/12/09)

Simplest way to 'fast carb' a beer without the chance of over-carbing, is to set the reg to serving pressure, and then invert and rock the keg for 30-60 mins. You'll get pretty close to serving pressure this way without any chance of over-carbing...

Cheers


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## Georgedgerton (6/12/09)

PYRO

OK time to call a truce on this one - Two people, same objective, going in different directions.

Would still like to hear from others on the subject


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## MarkBastard (6/12/09)

billgill said:


> Can someone please explain the difference between an "overcarbed" beer and a highly carbonated beer?
> 
> Surely the same beer on two different systems, one could be considered overcarbed & one be highly carbonated?
> 
> ...



It doesn't matter what system you're on, overcarbed beers are beers where there is too much co2 dissolved into the beer for the beer style or your preference. This is a different thing to for example serving pressure being too high.

You want to first of all get the pressure in the keg right such that the co2 will dissolve into the beer at the desired level, and then hit equilibrium. Then you want to have the right line length / diameter so that you can keep that same pressure and pour a beer through your system correctly.

My opinion is that it is absolutely paramount you get the first step right as a new kegger. You need to be confident your beer is carbonated correctly before you start worrying about actually pouring it. Some of the symptoms of over-carbing / under carbing / incorrect line lengths / leaks in your system / hot lines / hot taps etc can be similar and hard to detect.

-----

NickB, that'd be a good workout too :lol: 

I wonder if you can get some kind of 'shaking machine'. Maybe chuck your keg on top of the old washing machine.


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## glaab (7/12/09)

I've tried both methods and IMHO the beer is better off left for about 14 days at serving pressure.
Purely from a taste/ drinkability point of view. To me beer force carbed in an hour or so tastes green like beer bottled for 1 week. I've also done Brewcraft's recommended method of semi-forced carbing by applying about 30psi for a couple of days then reducing to serving pressure.
I would do that if I wanted to serve in 7 days [2-3days at 30 then 4-5 at 10psi]. 
14 days at 10-12psi produces the best result in my experience, probably partly due to the beer getting some age. I gotta agree with the OP. Cheers


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## riverside (7/12/09)

glaab said:


> I've tried both methods and IMHO the beer is better off left for about 14 days at serving pressure.
> Purely from a taste/ drinkability point of view. To me beer force carbed in an hour or so tastes green like beer bottled for 1 week. I've also done Brewcraft's recommended method of semi-forced carbing by applying about 30psi for a couple of days then reducing to serving pressure.
> I would do that if I wanted to serve in 7 days [2-3days at 30 then 4-5 at 10psi].
> 14 days at 10-12psi produces the best result in my experience, probably partly due to the beer getting some age. I gotta agree with the OP. Cheers




I 100% agree, when i have forced carbed in the past the beer tends to taste a little green (even if it has matured for a few weeks before)
Just my op !


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## dago001 (7/12/09)

Only been kegging for about 2 months. I went with the forced carb method, as I was too impatient to wait 2 weeks to try my beer from my first keg. I have continued to do this and have done 6 kegs now. I can see advantages in doing it both ways, but for me the biggest factor is that I only have 2 kegs. If you are only drinking a keg every 3 to 4 weeks, the the serving pressure carb method is ok. However, as a family with 5 over 18's a keg lasts just over a week. So until I get some more kegs, force carbing is the only way I can keep up with beer consumption. I agree that the beer tastes a little new ( don't like the term green as we always considered beer that is out of date to be green ) but at this stage that is what I have to accept. My beers are all over 6 weeks old normally before they get kegged. It is still a better beer than what I was buying. 
I started with 3 metres of beer line and a picnic tap and never had any troubles with pouring a decent beer.
If a beer has been a bit under carbed I just leave it on the gas at serving pressure or a little above over night and check the next day.
I don't see that either method is better than the other, and getting the correct amount of carb into a beer for someone new to kegging seems to be daunting. We just wanted to pull beers and have fun and enjoy the experience. Thats what its all about !!!

p.s. 5 adults is Me, wife, 2 daughters and 1 boyfriend - not a Uni house.


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## pyrobrewer (7/12/09)

pyrobrewer said:


> *Force Conditioning (Carbonation) *​​​
> I have a chart I use if this will help anyone? Let me know, its not on this PC, I can post it tomorrow. It has PSI and KPA, Farenheight and Celcius.​
> ​


​
View attachment Carbonation_Chart__3_.pdf

​


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## mxd (7/12/09)

see above sponsor 4 kegs $200 delivered can't go wrong, naturally carbonate that way it get's a bit of ageing and carbonating.

well from someone who started brewing on cup weekend (3/11/09), now have 6 kegs on tap, that I think are all over carbed (due to stupidity, impatience, etc..) I think my next lot (ordered another 4 from sponsor) will be naturally carbed while I leave the stuff in the chesty alone for a week around 80 kpa to hopefully sort it self out. Or if it's over carbed maybe turn gas off, burp a bit and leave ? Well send video's in another thread tonight.


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## MarkBastard (7/12/09)

mxd said:


> see above sponsor 4 kegs $200 delivered can't go wrong, naturally carbonate that way it get's a bit of ageing and carbonating.
> 
> well from someone who started brewing on cup weekend (3/11/09), now have 6 kegs on tap, that I think are all over carbed (due to stupidity, impatience, etc..) I think my next lot (ordered another 4 from sponsor) will be naturally carbed while I leave the stuff in the chesty alone for a week around 80 kpa to hopefully sort it self out. Or if it's over carbed maybe turn gas off, burp a bit and leave ? Well send video's in another thread tonight.



If it's over carbed you have to burp it out yeah. You can leave the pressure relief valve open and shake the co2 out of solution, or let the beer warm up a bit with the pressure relief open.

Note it's my personal opinion that excessive burping of a keg in this fashion drives off aroma. That can be a good thing if you have an unwanted aroma but a bad thing if you actually liked the aroma.


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