# Style Of The Week 13/9/06 - Weizen



## Stuster (13/9/06)

This week we're off to Germany for the traditional wheat beer, weizen/weissbier, style 15A on the BJCP style guidelines.

With summer just about to appear (hopefully), this style is a perfect refreshing beer for the warmer weather. Here are some links - General discussion on kits , some great AG info here, the Brewing Network discuss weizens download here (just for hmm aaaahhh Warren). (Any other links would be good.  )

So what is your take? Grain bill, hops, yeast strain (important for this style), ferment temps etc. There are lots of kits for this style but what are your favourites and how do you jazz them up? Which are the best commercial weizens? Tell us all you know about this style so we can all drink better beer. :super: 



> 15A. Weizen/Weissbier
> 
> Aroma: Moderate to strong phenols (usually clove) and fruity esters (usually banana). The balance and intensity of the phenol and ester components can vary but the best examples are reasonably balanced and fairly prominent. Noble hop character ranges from low to none. A light to moderate wheat aroma (which might be perceived as bready or grainy) may be present but other malt characteristics should not. No diacetyl or DMS. Optional, but acceptable, aromatics can include a light, citrusy tartness, a light to moderate vanilla character, and/or a low bubblegum aroma. None of these optional characteristics should be high or dominant, but often can add to the complexity and balance.
> 
> ...


----------



## tangent (13/9/06)

IMO it takes a great yeast to make a great Weizen. I wouldn't brew it without a 3333 or 3068. Fantastic tasting and smelling yeasts.


----------



## Tony (13/9/06)

yeah i agree!

I have used the 3068 and the WLP300 which is the same i think and brewed at 20 deg its great.

I have taken to decoction mashing it as well to get the depth of colour and malt flavor the proper german oned seem to have

I like to use at least 60% wheat.

My fav is the dunkelweizen style though. all that munick richness mmmmmmmmm. Will be making my next one with weyermann dark wheat i think.

cheers


----------



## Snow (13/9/06)

Yeast, yeast, yeast and yeast are the four most important ingredients in a weizen. Oh and wheat! A good weizen has a tangy taste that comes from the use of raw wheat in the grist. So, stuck sparges aside, I reckon up to 20% raw wheat in the grist is a good start.

And my favourite commercial weizen is Aventinus Doppel Weizenbock.

Cheers - Snow

edit: oh, and my favourite yeast for this style is Wyeast 3068!


----------



## warrenlw63 (13/9/06)

Timely thread Stuster! :lol: 

I'm contemplating one in the next few weeks. Shall be reading this thread with vested interest. Haven't ever been able to nail the style properly myself.

Getting some good ideas re; underpitching and long lag times though.  

Keep the ideas coming guys. Warren needs to make a decent Weizen. :lol: 

Warren -


----------



## Borret (13/9/06)

Snow.. I don't believe the German use any raw wheat in a weizen. It would be unpure. But I surpose as homebrewers who cares what they do :unsure: 


I love a good weizen, the best IMHO being Schnieder Edel Weisse.  Absolutely beautiful. Trouble being with a benchmark that high I have never been able to brew one I am totally happy with.

Here is another good article that explains the 30 deg rule too.

I will brew my ideal weizen one day, just fear the dissapoinment I may endure getting there. The starters always taste promising and then nothing from the ferment. I beleive my pitching rates have been too high in the past though. Must step outside the comfort zone once again.

Brent


----------



## Duff (13/9/06)

Can't wait to read Weizguy's thoughts on this one  

It's one I can never get right. I think I have it right with the hops, Mittlefruh at 60 minutes to about 17 - 18IBU, and the yeast WLP300, but for the next in a couple of weeks will try some unmalted wheat. Just can't seem to get the tartness right. Probably the best refreshing beer to have on tap at summer.

Franziskaner on tap is my fave :beerbang:


----------



## Stuster (13/9/06)

Snow said:


> A good weizen has a tangy taste that comes from the use of raw wheat in the grist. So, stuck sparges aside, I reckon up to 20% raw wheat in the grist is a good start.



Raw wheat? I thought that was in the Belgian wit style rather than this style. :unsure: 

I've never cracked this style either, warren. Last one I did about a year ago had no head on the beer at all, rather odd for a wheat beer. Will different rest temps help with this? (it was a straight infusion.)


----------



## bindi (13/9/06)

Just got back after four days away and found this topic.
Weizen, yes, I love a good *Hefe* Weizen and as tangent/snow and Tony said it's the right yeast, my first choice is 3333, I pitch at 22c then to 18c and raise to 24c over 4-5 days for that, to quiote Beersmith: "Fruity, ester, phenolics ok. Clove and banana yeast flavor dominent." Taste

I was going to say Yum but someone on here said that is so gay <_< , so it's great mate


----------



## MAH (13/9/06)

Borret said:


> Snow.. I don't believe the German use any raw wheat in a weizen. It would be unpure.



I agree that raw wheat is not used in a German wheat beer, but it has nothing to do with purity. The Beer Purity Law, Reinheitsgebot, was introduced in part to prevent the brewing of wheat beer. The idea was to stop competition between brewers and bakers for wheat and keep the price of bread affordable. The Reinheitsgebot lead to a number of German styles of beer disappearing and wheat beer only survived through a special decree that allowed first the royal family of the Degenbergers and later the Wittlesbachs alone to brew it. Royal control of the style was finally broken by Georg Schneider though his right to brew wheat beer was still a special exeption to the rule. Not until the passage of less strict standards in the 20th century was brewing wheat beer generally allowed.

Cheers
MAH


----------



## tangent (13/9/06)

that's amazing!
thanks MAH


----------



## Borret (13/9/06)

MAH said:


> Borret said:
> 
> 
> > Snow.. I don't believe the German use any raw wheat in a weizen. It would be unpure.
> ...


I do not argue that point.

However.. in order to brew with only malt, hops, yeast and water..... ones grain must all be malted. That be a part of the purity law. Wheat is only allowed in top fermented beers too.

Brent


----------



## Weizguy (13/9/06)

Lucky I had the day off work, and spotted this thread. I've been curious about what makes this kind of beer attractive, and why you weirdos go on and on and on about it. Doesn't appeal much to me. Has always been a bit freaky. Ha ha ha! :huh: 

OK, serious now...Stop me if I'm PistolPatching this thread! :lol: 

It was Redback wheat (the original recipe, I'd say) that got me interested in this style. Something different and interesting. Maybe it's just that it tasted better than New, VB or Red. It certainly was drinkable, but not quite affordable at night club prices, so I had to brew my own.

I started with some, or prob most of the wheat kits on the market at that time. First brew in my brew journal, but not the first I ever made, is a Goldrush wheat kit with dextrose. The big disappointment in wheat kit beer is the yeast - just a standard ale yeast.

I have added a wheatgerm steep in some of my earlier wheat beers, to get the right flavour, but really started to turn the corner with Wyeast W3056 Bavarian wheat blend in 1998. My belief is that it's called W3056 is coz it's a blend of W3068 and W1056. Whatever the origin of the name, I used it to brew my first extract weizen on 28/1/98 with a 750 ml starter which I prepared 3 days earlier. The first recipe was nice and used Willamette hops, whereas the second one used a noble hop (Saaz). Now I was getting somewhere.

As I had been reading about those American fruit wheat beers, I made one (misguidedly) using W3056 using a wheat kit, a blend of dried corn sugar and liquid and dry malt extracts and a jar of raspberry jam. Not bad, but would have been nicer with US56 yeast. I still have some of this, and I keep telling myself it's a yeast culture bank (from 15/3/98).

I started making weizens with DME (and numbering my weizen recipe batches)and found that I got closer to the flavours and colour that I wanted. Liquid malt just wasn't working for me.

The best weizen I ever made with a kit was a Muntons wheat, adding 500g liquid wheat malt extract and 500g Dex, and of course W3056.

I scored a second prize in 1999 at the now-defunct Newcastle Show Homebrew comp, and the bug bit me (I still have the newspaper result clippings, and the red ribbon, of course).

My house beer, until recently (only because I haven't been buying wheat DME) is 1.5kg Muntons wheat DME, 1 kg Muntons DME and 2 plugs of Czech Saaz. 22.5 litre batch. Pitch at ambient, up to 30C. I know it sounds to hot, but it has worked for me. OG is about 1040 and the ferment finishes in about 6-10 days. No racking. Just bottle with about 200g dextrose or 240g DME. Start drinking as soon as carbonated, maybe as soon as 2 days later. I have started making this beer with W3068 as well.

W3068, as the archetypal weizen yeast, unsurprisingly works well for making my weizens. It got a trial run in a weizen and a Dunkelweizen after I scored a free, out-of-date Wyeast pack in mid-2003. After ironing out a few bugs in my system (wild yeast) it has been my house weizen yeast since November 2004.

In my opinion, I'd say that I need to pitch at temp above 20C to get the banana I like. Pitch too cold and you'll only get phenolics, and that's not my fave aspect of this beer, although it helps to balance the flavours.
After some experience with the allegedly-tricky W3068, I'd recommend the W3056 as better for weizen neophytes. It seems to be much easier to get the right profile.

Might leave it there for the moment, but may come back and comment further, depending on where the thread conversation turns.

Oh, and I believe that wheat was much less available than barley in the early days in Germany. So the decree was that weizen was exclusive to the royal family, so there was always weizen available for them. Mmmmm, snob beer for a beer snob.

Beerz :beerbang: 

Weizguy out


----------



## warrenlw63 (13/9/06)

Has anybody used Wyeast 3638? :unsure: 

I know with 3068 I've had ordinary results thus far.

Warren -


----------



## Mr Bond (13/9/06)

Good post seth!

Not much more to say really,its all been said.

Yeast really is the key.

Like Weizguy ,I too like the bananary characteristics to be at the fore.Fermenting @ 20c + seems to develop these characteristics more.
Warren it may be worth giving the 3333 a try,its my fave over the 3068 as its more bubblegum and banana.

I bitter mine to 20 IBU ,which is at the top end of guidelines as i prefer it that way(afetr all I'm brewing for me)
I always use one 60 min hop addition ,and have used,Ammarillo,Challenger,POR  ,NZ hallertau,and most recently Chec Saaz.The euro hops are the difference though and should be first choice.Spalt and maybe some Home grown Tettnanger will make it into next years brews.
My last one finished 6 th from 9 entries with a 34.3 in the SAABSOSA comp last w/end and I'm yet to see and read the tasting notes but it would appear I still have a way to go until I'm up to guideline standaed anyway :unsure: .One thing I am sure of is its a tasty ale that is about 75% of the way to *my* perfect weizen.

Dave


----------



## MAH (13/9/06)

Borret said:


> However.. in order to brew with only malt, hops, yeast and water..... ones grain must all be malted. That be a part of the purity law. Wheat is only allowed in top fermented beers too.



Not exactly as simple as that. The original Reinheitsgebot, only allowed water, barley and hops, so even malted wheat was disallowed. This changed over time to allow yeast and other malted grains. Nor is it a German law, it's really a Bavarian law. It was first introduced in 1516, but only covered all of Germany from 1871, however under the separation of East and West Germany, the Eastern Germans didn't strictly folow it. And the Reinheitsgebot is no longer part of German law and has been replaced with the Provisional German Beer Law. 

What does all this mean, simply that the exclusion of raw wheat in wheat beer is not due to purity or the Reinheitsgebot, it's simply that the style never really used it. They made wheat beer without raw wheat before the Reinheitsgebot, they also made wheat beer without raw wheat in German areas that were not under the control of the Reinheitsgebot and they continue to make wheat beer without raw wheat even though the Reinheitsgebot is no longer part of German law, therefore you can't attribute it's exclusion to the Reinheitsgebot.

Cheers
MAH


----------



## Kai (13/9/06)

As everyone else has said, it's the yeast. However, it's also the way you treat it. Fermentation techniques seem to provide a big role in bringing out that special wheat fermentation profile.

I can't vouch for anything myself having only brewed two (admittedly tasty) hefeweizens, but the general advice seems to be either underpitch or pitch cold to stress the yeast a little. The "rule of 30" is often mentioned, eg pitch at 12 and ferment at 18. And then there are some that swear by the 4-vinyl-guaiacol rest too.

My basic method for a wheat beer is 50% wheat 50% pils, 66-67C mash noble-hopped to 15 IBU, 3068 or schneider weisse starter of around 500mL, OG in the low 1.040's and ferment around 18-22.


----------



## Hubby (13/9/06)

warrenlw63 said:


> Has anybody used Wyeast 3638? :unsure:


I haven't yet ... have some waiting ready to go (ie couldn't get 3068 when I went to G&G last month). There's a few references to it here.


----------



## Ash in Perth (13/9/06)

This is going to be my next brew.

2.5kg wheat malt
1.75kg pilsner malt
0.5kg dark munich
0.25kg caramalt (for some sweetness?)

12IBU with saphir hops and 0.5g/L at 10min for a little aroma

wyeast 3056

How does that sound?

Its the first AG and the second wheat ive ever brewed!


----------



## Whistlingjack (13/9/06)

I really like this style. Got a good taste for it when I was in Germany this year.

When I got back to Perth, I decided this would be my first (and staple) AG, so I stocked up on Weyermann wheat and pilsner malt. Added Caramunich III and hallertau mittelfruh to the shopping list and I was ready.

Yeast? Brought a bottle of Paulaner back from Germany, but the culture failed, so I bought some Hofbrau and got the yeast from that. I should clarify here that I live a long way from the nearest HBS.

Hit it first time. Hopped to 14 IBU, SRM 10.2 and the right balance of hops, yeast phenols and malt sweetness. Well, I thought it was good! Seemed to have the flavour I was after.

Four more brews later, its still as good.

3kg Weyermann pale wheat
2.5kg Weyermann pilsner
0.5kg Caramunich III

22g Hallertau mittelfruh @ 80min
14g Hallertau mittelfruh @ 15 minutes

Works for me!


----------



## tangent (13/9/06)

This evaporated pretty quickly.

Fermentables
Ingredient	Amount	%	When
Galaxy 3.00 kg 54.5 % In Mash/Steeped
German Wheat Malt 2.50 kg 45.5 % In Mash/Steeped


Hops
Variety	Alpha	Amount	Form	When
US Cascade 4.8 17 g Pelletized Hops 50 Min From End
NZ Pacific Hallertau 5.8 16 g Bagged Whole Hops 20 Min From End

Yeast
Wyeast 3333-German Wheat


----------



## DJR (13/9/06)

Ash in Perth said:


> This is going to be my next brew.
> 
> 2.5kg wheat malt
> 1.75kg pilsner malt
> ...



mmmm saphir hops. I think they'd be a great choice in a weizen, a faint spiciness. Tasting great in the Kolsch i've got going at the moment.

All this talk of weizens is making me want to brew one! Damn these style of the week posts. :super:


----------



## Voosher (13/9/06)

Not that I've brewed one yet, but I will, I promise. Dunkels are the ultimate target.
My thoughts are that Weizen's should make a good summer brewed brew as they can generally ferment a little warmer than most, if not all, of my ales.

1 question. I planned to start with Wyeast 3068 but some posts here imply it can be a touch tempermental. In what way?


----------



## hockadays (13/9/06)

I've used the wyeast 3638 quite a few times and it gives a good balance of banana and fruit. I pitch and run at 16deg and 18deg. I've tried the acid rest and the 30 rule to get good cloves but didn't notice a huge difference with this yeast. The latest one in the secondary I've done with hersbrucker and saaz and it tastes good from the fermenter.

Its a good beer to turn around empty kegs quickly...
One of my favs..

hockman..


----------



## Whistlingjack (13/9/06)

I'd like to add, as quoted on this board, "grain to brain in ten days"

The best hefeweizen is fresh.


----------



## Weizguy (13/9/06)

Voosher said:


> Not that I've brewed one yet, but I will, I promise. Dunkels are the ultimate target.
> My thoughts are that Weizen's should make a good summer brewed brew as they can generally ferment a little warmer than most, if not all, of my ales.
> 
> 1 question. I planned to start with Wyeast 3068 but some posts here imply it can be a touch tempermental. In what way?


Voosher,
The W3068 is temperamental in that I have found it to be difficult to get enough banana flavours. Haven't had too much trouble with the phenolics. After reading my brew notes and listening to the Jamil broadcast, I'm thinking that the culture may need to be really active at pitching. More beers to brew, to check this out.

Maybe the 30 degree rule is important. We'll see with my next weizen. Just need to get the rauchbier lagered and out of my fridge first.

BTW, Ash in Perth, your recipe looks like a Dunkelweizen (with that dark Munich), and prob doesn't need the caramalt. Give it a run, and let us know how it goes.

Seth


----------



## Mr Bond (14/9/06)

Weizguy said:


> The W3068 is temperamental in that I have found it to be difficult to get enough banana flavours. Haven't had too much trouble with the phenolics.
> 
> 
> Seth



I'll second that,I even threw it AT a Coopers PA can with some DME and dex(as an experiment),and it came out with a big phenolic character that overode even the extract twang of a budget K'nK.
After using 3333 I can't see myself going back.


----------



## jimmy01 (14/9/06)

I've been hooked on Hefe Weizen since I tasted my first Maisels,which remains my favourite wheaty treat. I also love the Scheinider range, closely followed by the Weihenstephaner Original.

Haven't nailed making one yet. Can get the tangy wheat taste but can't get the fruity flavours to go with it. Sounds like time to source a better yeast. Thanks to all those who contributed to the discussion on yeasts for this style.

Has anyone tried culturing from a bottle or 2 of Weihenstephaner?

Cheers


----------



## warrenlw63 (14/9/06)

jimmy01 said:


> I've been hooked on Hefe Weizen since I tasted my first Maisels




Mmmmm.... Maisels. :beer: 

Warren -


----------



## Duff (14/9/06)

How do you achieve the slight tang/tartness? Types of wheat? Yeast? Acidulated?


----------



## Voosher (14/9/06)

Weizguy said:


> Voosher,
> The W3068 is temperamental in that I have found it to be difficult to get enough banana flavours. Haven't had too much trouble with the phenolics. After reading my brew notes and listening to the Jamil broadcast, I'm thinking that the culture may need to be really active at pitching. More beers to brew, to check this out.
> 
> Maybe the 30 degree rule is important. We'll see with my next weizen. Just need to get the rauchbier lagered and out of my fridge first.
> ...



Thanks Seth.
I can probably live with that to start with.



Brauluver said:


> I'll second that,I even threw it AT a Coopers PA can with some DME and dex(as an experiment),and it came out with a big phenolic character that overode even the extract twang of a budget K'nK.
> After using 3333 I can't see myself going back.



Brewing's a funny old caper. I used the 3333 almost 2 years ago and I wasn't that happy with the results. On reflection I probably brewed it too cool and it was all extract.
It looks like I may owe it a return visit.

Cheers.


----------



## Snow (14/9/06)

Duff,

even though it's been "pooh poohed" by the style nazis above, I use raw wheat to achieve the "tang"! Works a treat and won me some medals as well B) 

Cheers - Snow.



Duff said:


> How do you achieve the slight tang/tartness? Types of wheat? Yeast? Acidulated?


----------



## Batz (14/9/06)

MAH said:


> The Beer Purity Law, Reinheitsgebot, was introduced in part to prevent the brewing of wheat beer. Cheers
> MAH




And a bloody good idea as well !

Batz


----------



## Whistlingjack (14/9/06)

GERMANY'S PURITY LAW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Following is an English translation of the Reinheitsgebot (German Purity Law) adopted in 1516, the oldest provision still enforced to protect the consumer. This is taken from the article "History of German Brewing" by Karl J. Eden, published in 'zymurgy' magazine, Vol. 16, No. 4 Special 1993. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We hereby proclaim and decree, by Authority of our Province, that henceforth in the Duchy of Bavaria, in the country as well as in the cities and marketplaces, the following rules apply to the sale of beer: 
"From Michaelmas to Georgi, the price for one Mass [Bavarian Liter 1,069] or one Kopf [bowl-shaped container for fluids, not quite one Mass], is not to exceed one Pfennig Munich value, and 

"From Georgi to Michaelmas, the Mass shall not be sold for more than two Pfennig of the same value, the Kopf not more than three Heller [Heller usually one-half Pfennig]. 

"If this not be adhered to, the punishment stated below shall be administered. 

"Should any person brew, or otherwise have, other beer than March beer, it is not to be sold any higher than one Pfennig per Mass. 

"Furthermore, we wish to emphasize that in future in all cities, markets and in the country, the only ingredients used for the brewing of beer must be Barley, Hops and Water. Whosoever knowingly disregards or transgresses upon this ordinance, shall be punished by the Court authorities' confiscating such barrels of beer, without fail. 

"Should, however, an innkeeper in the country, city or markets buy two or three pails of beer (containing 60 Mass) and sell it again to the common peasantry, he alone shall be permitted to charge one Heller more for the Mass of the Kopf, than mentioned above. Furthermore, should there arise a scarcity and subsequent price increase of the barley (also considering that the times of harvest differ, due to location), WE, the Bavarian Duchy, shall have the right to order curtailments for the good of all concerned."


----------



## Borret (14/9/06)

Batz said:


> MAH said:
> 
> 
> > The Beer Purity Law, Reinheitsgebot, was introduced in part to prevent the brewing of wheat beer. Cheers
> ...


 :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## warrenlw63 (14/9/06)

Snow said:


> I use raw wheat to achieve the "tang"! Works a treat and won me some medals as well B)



I use this. :beerbang: 

Warren -


----------



## Duff (14/9/06)

Snow said:


> Duff,
> 
> even though it's been "pooh poohed" by the style nazis above, I use raw wheat to achieve the "tang"! Works a treat and won me some medals as well B)
> 
> ...



:lol: 

Cheers Snow, I'll give that a go.


----------



## BlueJ (14/9/06)

I haven't had the Maisels but my No.1 is the Schneider Weisse Hefeweizen (but too expensive) and No.2 is the Weihenstephaner Hefeweizen and Dunkelweizen. The Aventinus is good and a bit unusual with that prominent vanilla taste.

We made a Dunkelweizen from the ESB wheat fresh wort kit with the addition of some steeped cara, munich and another malt (can't remember exactly). G&G gave us the recipe. We used Wyeast 3056 and added some Saaz hops 20/20.

We are drinking it now, and it is an OK beer but it is nowhere near the Aventinus or Weihenstephaner Dunkelweizen in intensity.


----------



## Stuster (14/9/06)

An article on wheat beers from All about beer magazine, departing from here.

Snow, good tip that I'll be using. :super:


----------



## Kai (14/9/06)

jimmy01 said:


> Has anyone tried culturing from a bottle or 2 of Weihenstephaner?



Nopel, but I have cultured from Schneider Edel Weisse with definite success.


----------



## Screwtop (14/9/06)

Batz, you need a Wheat Beer Attitude Adjustment 

Will have a cloudy on tap in a week if you'd like to drive down to sample it. Trying to emulate Bindi's Hefe from 3 weeks ago, he really nailed this style the Dirty Rotten Lucky Bas#@rd. It's carbing in the keg, can't wait for next Tuesday.


----------



## DJR (14/9/06)

What would be the cheapest/easiest source of unmalted wheat?


----------



## Mr Bond (14/9/06)

Voosher said:


> Brewing's a funny old caper. I used the 3333 almost 2 years ago and I wasn't that happy with the results. On reflection I probably brewed it too cool and it was all extract.
> It looks like I may owe it a return visit.
> 
> Cheers.



Tis true, and its a personal taste thing as well. 3068 is the safe bet if you want a weizen to standard.
3333 is a more subdued and fruitier strain.I brewed a weizen with it and gave some to a Schofferhoffer fan and he wasn't that impressed, no clove and vanilla. 3333 is definitely a wheat strain but closer in character to a coopers fruity flava than anything else.
I did a wheat style As detailed here! and it picked up 3rd in saabsosa as an aussie pale ale.Mainly to see what a coopers reculture would do with a wheaty grist.To my palate Pale ale has a big wheaty hit.


----------



## Hubby (14/9/06)

DJR said:


> What would be the cheapest/easiest source of unmalted wheat?


Flaked wheat


----------



## tangent (14/9/06)

i disagree, there's no fresh wheaty taste or aroma in it. get more of a weetbix taste with pre-done. La Guilloteine (sp?) is a classic example to me.
fresh cracked wheat is the go. either simmered and added or added milled and go 30-55-68C.

find a farmer offer him beer was my best way to get raw wheat and barley. 20kgs at a time. 
some HBS will supply it cheap from time to time.

i'd love to find an organic grain farmer, with a pretty skinny daughter that runs a malting and stainless steel fabrication company......


----------



## Batz (14/9/06)

Screwtop said:


> Will have a cloudy on tap in a week if you'd like to drive down to sample it. Trying to emulate Bindi's Hefe from 3 weeks ago, he really nailed this style the Dirty Rotten Lucky Bas#@rd. It's carbing in the keg, can't wait for next Tuesday.



Don't tell me your problems :angry: 

Batz


----------



## goatherder (14/9/06)

tangent said:


> i'd love to find an organic grain farmer, with a pretty skinny daughter that runs a malting and stainless steel fabrication company......



Wow, a girl who's a boilermaker and a maltster. Nice...


----------



## Mr Bond (14/9/06)

goatherder said:


> tangent said:
> 
> 
> > i'd love to find an organic grain farmer, with a pretty skinny daughter that runs a malting and stainless steel fabrication company......
> ...



Its a possibility, but a big bum would be the trade off :excl:


----------



## Weizguy (14/9/06)

Kai said:


> jimmy01 said:
> 
> 
> > Has anyone tried culturing from a bottle or 2 of Weihenstephaner?
> ...


I have cultured from Schofferhofer hefeweizen, but not brewed with it, as it's a bottling strain.
Have also cultured from James Squire colonial wheat, but not brewed with it yet.

I find that liquid malt (LME and wheat LME) does not give you the right fruity esters for a weizen. I tried the ESB 3kg wheat once and I can see why they don't call it a weizen. Problem was that I fermented with W3056 and got an American hefeweizen with too much hop flavour (German hops, too, IIRC). I couldn't convince myself that it was drinkable in large doses. The combo didn't work for me.

I don't think that I could go for W3333, as I'm now quite addicted to the banana flavour, and the other flavours too.

Has anyone else brewed with Muntons DME and Wheat DME? It certainly works with my hops, water, pitching rate, ferment etc. No guarantee that it will work for everyone, though.

What do beer judges think of hop flavour in this beer. I think it's out-of-style and don't put any in. Well, maybe I did one with Tettnang flavour hop, but not for a comp. Will I be penalised in a comp, or rewarded?

BTW goatherder, the skinny boilermaker, maltster farmer's daughter has a goatee beard and bad breath, I bet! :lol: 

Bierz
Seth out


----------



## tangent (14/9/06)

c'mon fellas, she's out there somewhere!
tig welding fixtures in the malt rooms, up to her thighs in fresh Vienna malt......


----------



## Mr Bond (14/9/06)

Weizguy said:


> Kai said:
> 
> 
> > jimmy01 said:
> ...


----------



## Kai (14/9/06)

Heavy hop flavour, especially american, is awful with a good wheat yeast. Not that I've ever brewed one, I've sampled a 3068 starter made with leftover APA wort. For hop flavour in a hefe I would stick to light nobles or American Glacier for something slightly different.


----------



## tangent (14/9/06)

Glacier, that's your lemony hop answer to everything Kai  
Brauluver Dave suggested Spalt. I have an unopened pack from Ross, would the AHB wheat freaks agree that it should be sacrificed in the name of wheat, or another style?


----------



## Whistlingjack (14/9/06)

Hallertau...

The ONLY noble hops for this style.


----------



## Voosher (14/9/06)

tangent said:


> Glacier, that's your lemony hop answer to everything Kai
> Brauluver Dave suggested Spalt. I have an unopened pack from Ross, would the AHB wheat freaks agree that it should be sacrificed in the name of wheat, or another style?



FWIW I have Spalt on hand for Alts but figured nobody would really cry if I used it for my forthcoming Weizens. Given that hops don't generally play a bit part I figured any noble'ish hop would do the job. At least to start with.


----------



## Kai (14/9/06)

tangent said:


> Glacier, that's your lemony hop answer to everything Kai



Hey, it works!


----------



## Mr Bond (14/9/06)

tangent said:


> Glacier, that's your lemony hop answer to everything Kai
> Brauluver Dave suggested Spalt. I have an unopened pack from Ross, would the AHB wheat freaks agree that it should be sacrificed in the name of wheat, or another style?



Yeah do it, its german and its noble(fits perfectly)


----------



## tangent (14/9/06)

ok, that's it's parents and politics, can you fill me in on some flavours and smells?


----------



## Weizguy (14/9/06)

Voosher said:


> tangent said:
> 
> 
> > Glacier, that's your lemony hop answer to everything Kai
> ...


Voosher, Tangent,

I must agree with Brauluver. The noble German hop, Spalt, will be good in this beer. This weizen fiend sez yes!
I find, though, even with just a 60 min boil addition, I get a bit of hop flavour in my wheats, and can readily notice the difference between the same (low) IBUs of Tettnang and Saaz in a weizen. Both good, but unique.

Seth


----------



## Kai (14/9/06)

tangent said:


> ok, that's it's parents and politics, can you fill me in on some flavours and smells?



Comes across to me as spicy with a mild bit of herbiage.


----------



## Weizguy (14/9/06)

Spalt is herbal perfumery. Used it in my Berliner weisse ( I know it's off-topic), and got a little hint of it in the flavour. Then again, it was a 20 min boil, what else would U get?

My 2 cents

Seth


----------



## Mr Bond (14/9/06)

tangent said:


> ok, that's it's parents and politics, can you fill me in on some flavours and smells?



Tettnanger with a little more spice(read peppery in a mild way)


----------



## Ross (15/9/06)

DJR said:


> What would be the cheapest/easiest source of unmalted wheat?



Torriefied wheat is the way to go, converts far more readily & is cheaper in my experience than the health food stores.

Cheers Ross


----------



## Ross (15/9/06)

If using raw wheat, use in conjunction with a good enzymatic malt to help conversion. Galaxy malt is excellent for this. Was very pleased with my first wiezen (only ever made 1), but looking forward to using what I've learnt in this thread & giving this style another go once my Wit keg runs a bit lower...

cheers Ross


----------



## Borret (15/9/06)

Just rememeber..

Don't mention the 'Law'.... I did it once but it appears I didn't get away with it.. 

Brent


----------



## Beer Krout (15/9/06)

Has anyone tried the BYO July-August 2006 Recipe
Kalheim Wiessbier?

I was looking at making my first Weizen with that.
Only it has quite a complicated mashing schedule.

Rests at 37C, 50C and 63C
60min whirlpooling after boil.
Use of "speise" for priming.

Cheers
Brett


----------



## tangent (15/9/06)

> Galaxy malt is excellent for this.


 top tip Ross. Galaxy is made for adjuncts 

Thanks for the Spalt descriptions folks. I'm mad keen to try it now.


----------



## Snow (15/9/06)

Ross said:


> DJR said:
> 
> 
> > What would be the cheapest/easiest source of unmalted wheat?
> ...



Ahh, but does it give you da "tang"???

- Snow


----------



## Ross (15/9/06)

Snow said:


> Ross said:
> 
> 
> > DJR said:
> ...



I reckon it did & no-ones commented to the contrary, but I'm no wheatie expert - Is there a reason why it wouldn't?

cheers Ross


----------



## Bizarre (15/9/06)

Batz said:


> MAH said:
> 
> 
> > The Beer Purity Law, Reinheitsgebot, was introduced in part to prevent the brewing of wheat beer. Cheers
> ...



Thats a bit biased Batz - lol - what about us blokes that like a bit of wheat?


----------



## tangent (15/9/06)

> Is there a reason why it wouldn't?


 just a freshness thing i suppose. like freshly milled grain or dme. they both work.....


----------



## Weizguy (15/9/06)

I listened to the Jamil show about Weizen last night. He stated that there is no wheat 'tang", IIRC.
The only tangy wheat I've made is a Berliner Weisse, not a weizen.

Can someone advise why, and what, is this tang, they find desirable?
It is certainly not in the BJCP guidelines displayed in post #1 by Stuster.

For my opinion, I'd say to keep the raw wheat out of this, but you do what you feel is right. Just don't cry if it goes badly astray.

For Duff, who cannot get the tartness right, are U mashing at 67C? Are U decocting, and are you adding other than bittering hops? Maybe it's the Newcastle water - linky to pdf of typical water composition.

For Batz, I believe that the comment about the Reinheitsgebot was missing the following in italics:

*The Beer Purity Law, Reinheitsgebot, was introduced in part to prevent the brewing of wheat beer by commoners*. As discussed earlier, it was more a pledge, than a law. Anyway Batz, I think people should stop baiting you, and you should stop taking those baits. My 2 cents.

Uncle Seth


----------



## Tony (15/9/06)

HEY

Back to the grouse shella up to her lace G-String in vienna malt with the TIG welder in hand building me a brewery!!!



cheers


----------



## KoNG (26/10/07)

Peoples,
Been a while since this thread has surfaced :blink:
Actually been a while since iv'e surfaced.... just moved house and havent brewed for a few months. luckily i have a few NC cubes to hopefully get me through till this weizen is ready..
So its my first weizen on sunday (done my share of wit's.. but no weizen)
This thread isnt actually crawling with peoples recipes, which i was hoping to glance over...
that said, the chat about the lass in her G string up to her thighs in vienna malt was worth the read (although a picture tells a thousand words, so pictures would have helped).

We are slowly heading to weizen season, whats everyones latest thoughts....

so far i'm loosely going with...

60% wheat
38% ale/pils
2% crystal (maybe dark)

60 minutes to 16-18 IBU
giving the dried yeast a spin.

tis all.
Go.


----------



## AndrewQLD (26/10/07)

KoNG said:


> Peoples,
> Been a while since this thread has surfaced :blink:
> Actually been a while since iv'e surfaced.... just moved house and havent brewed for a few months. luckily i have a few NC cubes to hopefully get me through till this weizen is ready..
> So its my first weizen on sunday (done my share of wit's.. but no weizen)
> ...



Hi Kong,

here's my recipe that I am drinking now, the mash regime is complicated but the results are worth it, and the yeast is a winner in my mind.
Nice crisp/dry beer, some clove and slight banana and a lovely tart finish.

Cheers
Andrew

Style: Weizen/Weissbier
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (45.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L 
Boil Size: 29.95 L
Estimated OG: 1.049 SG
Estimated Color: 5.0 EBC
Estimated IBU: 18.5 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
2.75 kg Wheat Malt (Barrett Burston) (2.4 EBC) 61.11 % 
1.75 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) 38.89 % 
45.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] (60 min) 18.5 IBU 
1 Pkgs Safbrew Wheat (Safbrew #WB-06) Yeast-Ale 


Mash Schedule: Hefeweizen mash
Total Grain Weight: 4.50 kg
----------------------------
Hefeweizen mash
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
30 min Ferulic rest Add 20.00 L of water at 44.3 C 42.0 C 
30 min Sacch rest Heat to 63.0 C over 10 min 63.0 C 
30 min Step Heat to 72.0 C over 10 min 72.0 C 
5 min Mash Out Heat to 78.0 C over 10 min 78.0 C


----------



## KoNG (26/10/07)

Nice one Andrew... funnily enough our grist and IBU's are very close. good to see, i'll guess i'll stick with it.
Wont have the time for step mashing on sunday, but might try it with the second attempt down the track...
Good to hear you liking the yeast....
whats your fermentation temp thoughts for the yeast..?


----------



## warrenlw63 (26/10/07)

Heya PhATfeller. There goes the peace and quiet.  

I pitched at 14 degrees. Slowly ramped the temp up to 18 degrees for 24 hours, pushed it up to 20-21 degrees to finish off. Just racked the beer to finish in the kegs. Yeast seems to have produced a nice balanced character of phenols and fruit. Fairly tart finish also.

I'm also liking what I'm getting from the addition of 25% Weyermann Dark Wheat Malt. (15-20 EBC). :icon_drunk: 

Warren -


----------



## AndrewQLD (26/10/07)

I fermented @ 22 which only gave it a slight hint of banana, I think from reports I have read that this yeast is not as banana dominant at the higher end of it's temp rating as some of the other yeasts. At 22 I found the flavours/aromas to be very well balanced.

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## fixa (27/1/08)

Hey guys..
Gonna have my first brewday since november this week, and want to try a weizen. 
Here's what i've come up with...


Brewer: Barking Hound Brewhaus and Drinkery
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Weizen/Weissbier
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L 
Boil Size: 28.05 L
Estimated OG: 1.046 SG
Estimated Color: 3.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 11.0 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.00 kg Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (1.8 SRGrain 57.69 % 
2.00 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (1.5 SGrain 38.46 % 
0.20 kg Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 3.85 % 
22.00 gm Spalter [4.50 %] (60 min) Hops 11.0 IBU 
1 Pkgs Safbrew WB-06 Yeast-Wheat 


Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 5.20 kg
----------------------------
My Mash
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
60 min Mash in Add 18.00 L of water at 71.9 C 67.0 C 
10 min Mash out Add 15.26 L of water at 85.5 C 75.0 C 



Thoughts???????


----------



## Stuster (27/1/08)

I think it looks good, fixa. That yeast gave me a fairly dry, tart beer and I think that mash temp will be good to avoid the beer being too dry. You could also use a little munich, but it's certainly fine as is. :chug:


----------



## SJW (27/1/08)

I used all Dark Wheat in mine and fermented at 18. No banana but a nice drop all the same.Next time I am going to thrown a Banana in the boil. That will fix it!  

Steve


----------



## fixa (27/1/08)

Cheers, thanks for the feedback stuster


----------



## tangent (27/1/08)

Fixa, I'd drop the flaked wheat. Other than that it looks good. 60% malted wheat is spot on IMO.


----------



## RobB (30/1/08)

fixa said:


> Hey guys..
> Gonna have my first brewday since november this week, and want to try a weizen.
> Here's what i've come up with...



Fixa,

That's eerily similar to my first crack at a weizen about a month ago: 60% wheat, 40% BB Galaxy, Tettnang to 13 IBU and WB-06.

I was constantly reading how weizens are best young. I cracked a bottle after two weeks and hated it - too dry, too tart, too clovey. By the time it was four weeks old it was an entirely different beer with everything back into balance. I might try a little munich next time, but otherwise this will become a summer staple.

Cheers,

Rob


----------



## SJW (30/1/08)

> Fixa,
> 
> That's eerily similar to my first crack at a weizen about a month ago: 60% wheat, 40% BB Galaxy, Tettnang to 13 IBU and WB-06.
> 
> ...



I did the same but kegged and found it better after a few weeks. Next brew I will thrown in 100 or 200g of Melanoidin.
And do a protein rest prior to raising to 67 for 90 mins.

Steve


----------



## blackbock (8/2/09)

According to German researchers at Weihenstephaner, Back, Diener and Sacher the secret to achieving a great Weissbier character is partly in the raw materials, and partly in the brewing process (that much at least is obvious). 

What I hadn't heard before is that the formation of banana character is supposed to be helped by a protein rest of shorter than 10 mins. Longer protein rests apparently lead to increased clove aroma. They also made some findings which are probably only relevant to commercial scale brewing, regarding the shape of fermenting vessels (tall thin fermenters are supposed to reduce the amount of esters produced)

I will be trying some of their ideas out in my next Weizen... B)

Edit: dead link removed


----------



## pdilley (1/3/09)

Borret said:


> Snow.. I don't believe the German use any raw wheat in a weizen. It would be unpure. But I surpose as homebrewers who cares what they do :unsure:
> 
> 
> I love a good weizen, the best IMHO being Schnieder Edel Weisse.  Absolutely beautiful. Trouble being with a benchmark that high I have never been able to brew one I am totally happy with.
> ...



Just a updated link, the original one exists no more so use the Internet Archive service to find the file:

http://web.archive.org/web/20060927082056/...se+of+wheat.pdf


----------



## donmateo (9/2/10)

Greetings - I'm looking for some tips on making a nice hefeweizen.

I've noticed that a lot of people are using the german malt in making weizen style. Does anyone have any experience about the difference between the german malts, as to the australian malts for this style ?
I have tried several attempts at the hefeweizen style, and I'm using only the australian malts. I have still not been able to come up with a result which get's even close to some of my favorite commercial examples (schneider/weinsteph/franziscaner). I have tried all sorts of variations in malt ratio's, and fermantation temperatures, but I can't produce that vibrant fresh yeast driven character that is present in any the above examples. I have tried 3068, and 3638, from a packet in starter, or re-cultured from top-cropped previous batch, but I get similarly mediocre results with both. There is definately bananery esters being produced during fermentation, as the fermenation freezer smells great, but does not seem to take hold properly in the beer. Mash regime, I have tried from complicated low-temp mash-ins with steps rests and single decoctions(a la warner: german wheat beer), to a simple infusion at 67 or 63 degC, 40 minute boil to 2 hour boil, but no joy. 
I'm not adding salts or anything to the water, it's straight filtered from the tap, and although I don't have good temperature controll, i've fermented batches at everywhere from around 17 degC, to around 24 degC, and no significant best pattern is emerging. 
My malt bill iss essentially wheat and pilsner malts, and although I started at 50% of each, now I generally use about 60-70% wheat and the rest pilsner. Also, all of them have been no-chill.
Funnily enough, the only wheat beer I've been able to make that did have that yeast character, nice clean fresh vibrant banana, but a litttle light on the clove, was done with probably the simplest process: 50% LME, 50% Wheat ME, boil in 9L, little hops, top up to 16L, wack in the 3068 straight from the packet, no starter. It came up with great character typical of hefeweizen, but was a little thin and watery on the body - something that I was hoping to be able to rectify with all grain process.
Another thing I noticed while doing my starters, is that I generally save wort from the kettle to do starters with, and with the last batch, I used all I had, but ran out. So I did another starter-addition with DME. What I noticed was that I was getting significanly nicer weizen-yesty banana etc aroma produced from fermenting the DME, to my saved weizen wort. 
Current batch is small size (11L) with a relatively large starter of 3638 (3 lot's of 2L) pitched, to see if increased pitching rate will help, but all signs so far are that it will be consistant with previous brews.
Also - another gripe is terrible head retention, but let's leave that for another rant..

Ok Doctor, i'm done, which is the magic pill ?

Any ideas appreciated.


----------



## dgilks (9/2/10)

Don Mateo said:


> Greetings - I'm looking for some tips on making a nice hefeweizen.
> 
> I've noticed that a lot of people are using the german malt in making weizen style. Does anyone have any experience about the difference between the german malts, as to the australian malts for this style ?
> I have tried several attempts at the hefeweizen style, and I'm using only the australian malts. I have still not been able to come up with a result which get's even close to some of my favorite commercial examples (schneider/weinsteph/franziscaner). I have tried all sorts of variations in malt ratio's, and fermantation temperatures, but I can't produce that vibrant fresh yeast driven character that is present in any the above examples. I have tried 3068, and 3638, from a packet in starter, or re-cultured from top-cropped previous batch, but I get similarly mediocre results with both. There is definately bananery esters being produced during fermentation, as the fermenation freezer smells great, but does not seem to take hold properly in the beer. Mash regime, I have tried from complicated low-temp mash-ins with steps rests and single decoctions(a la warner: german wheat beer), to a simple infusion at 67 or 63 degC, 40 minute boil to 2 hour boil, but no joy.
> ...



My understanding is that two things are important with Weizen yeasts. The first is temperature. At higher temperatures you get more of the banana characters while lower temperatures give you more of the clove phenols. Some brewers I know start low and then ramp their temperature up to get the best of both worlds. The other is that to get esters you want to stress your yeast a bit. Large starters are not a good idea. Off the top of my head I don't know the correct pitching rate but you do want to under-pitch to a certain degree. As for your grist, it should definitely be at least 50% wheat to be a proper weizen.


----------



## donmateo (9/2/10)

dgilks said:


> ...
> Large starters are not a good idea. Off the top of my head I don't know the correct pitching rate but you do want to under-pitch to a certain degree.



Yes - I have heard this before as well, but I noticed recently a photo of, I think it was zwickle's starters for his Hefeweizen, and they were quite monstrous compared to anything I had used before, so I thought I would try pitching a bigger amount. I don't think it is working for me though.


----------



## kfahy (9/2/10)

Hi all,

a quick question about fermentation temp. I've seen a lot of people suggesting a ferment of 20 degrees and the odd one at 18 and some who ramp up their temp throughout the ferment.

Jamil says in Brewing Classic Styles that he struggled for ages with the ferment temp before being told that 17 is the key. Has anybody tried this? How does it compare to 20 degree ferments. 17 or 20 is a pretty big diff.

Normally i would go with the majority and go with 20 but Jamil said 17 so...


----------



## warra48 (10/2/10)

The best Hefeweizen I ever brewed (and it arguably was my best beer ever brewed) was made with a fairly large starter of WY3068 fermented at 17.5C all the way. Certainly it was not underpitched.
It was perfectly balanced between spice or clove and subtle banana.


----------



## donmateo (10/2/10)

warra48 said:


> The best Hefeweizen I ever brewed (and it arguably was my best beer ever brewed) was made with a fairly large starter of WY3068 fermented at 17.5C all the way. Certainly it was not underpitched.
> It was perfectly balanced between spice or clove and subtle banana.



Did you use australian, or european malts ? 
I'm finally going to try doing a hefeweizen with european malt - it's the only thing I can think of that I haven't done yet, that might make a difference. I have to say though, if it is the missing link, i'll be very dissapointed if I'm not able to use local malts to make this fantastic style.


----------



## rude (16/2/10)

I did a wiezen 50% Aust pilsener malt 50% weyermann wheat fermented at 18c unknowingly underpitched by a mile.

It was 1054 so needed a 4 litre starter according to mr malty. I pitched a wyeast into 1.5 litre starter & used half.

Wasnt a bad drop thought it had too much clove with a hint of bannana.

The next one Ive put the remaining yeast on a stir plate with a litre starter on top & will ferment at 20c.

The other half of the starter was in the fridge for 10 weeks, tasted it & not really happy I think it has an infection but will taste again after the stir plate ferments out.

If I am in any doubt will be bying a new yeast.

Oh for a good wiezen.


----------



## rude (16/2/10)

Heres a pic


----------



## manticle (16/2/10)

warra48 said:


> The best Hefeweizen I ever brewed (and it arguably was my best beer ever brewed) was made with a fairly large starter of WY3068 fermented at 17.5C all the way. Certainly it was not underpitched.
> It was perfectly balanced between spice or clove and subtle banana.



I agree. No need to stress the yeast. Slightly cooler fermentation in my limited experience gives a wonderful balance


----------



## therook (17/2/10)

I kegged my first Wheaty for the year last week and it is my best one so far. I used Newguys method which was passed onto him from memory by Dave Logsdon from wyeast. Pitched a 1.5 litre starter into 20 litres of NON Aerated Wort ( No splashing at all ) and fermented at 18c. First time i have got the Banana/Clove balance the way i like it.

Thanks newguy

Rook


----------



## warra48 (17/2/10)

Don Mateo said:


> Did you use australian, or european malts ?
> I'm finally going to try doing a hefeweizen with european malt - it's the only thing I can think of that I haven't done yet, that might make a difference. I have to say though, if it is the missing link, i'll be very dissapointed if I'm not able to use local malts to make this fantastic style.



I used all Weyermann malts, 49% Wheat, 49% Premium Pils, 2% Carahell. 90 minute boil.
Water was straight local tap water, with 3 gr chalk in the mash, and 3 gr in the sparge.
Didn't aerate the batch itself, but added a couple of litres wort to the starter slurry, and aerated just that before pitching.


----------



## Damian44 (22/2/10)

Hey peoples, im curious if its worth adding Polyclar and gelatine to my Weizen? The Wyeast 3333 - German Wheat Flocculation is high. 

My FG was supposed to be 1.011 but it was at 1.010 after 5 days so i crashed chilled it. Should i have left it for a couple more days?

Batch - 45L

4.60 kg Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (1.8 SRM) Grain 55.42 % 
3.70 kg Pilsner (Joe White) (3.0 SRM) Grain 44.58 % 
12.00 gm Centennial [6.00 %] (60 min) Hops 4.7 IBU 
47.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.50 %] (60 min) Hops 10.7 IBU 
20.00 gm Tettnang [2.82 %] (2 min) Hops 0.6 IBU 
10.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.50 %] (2 min) Hops 0.4 IBU 
4 Pkgs German Wheat (Wyeast Labs #3333) Yeast-Wheat 



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.041 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.041 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.011 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.010 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 3.94 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 3.90 % 
Bitterness: 16.3 IBU


----------



## kfahy (4/3/10)

Damian44 said:


> Hey peoples, im curious if its worth adding Polyclar and gelatine to my Weizen? The Wyeast 3333 - German Wheat Flocculation is high.
> 
> My FG was supposed to be 1.011 but it was at 1.010 after 5 days so i crashed chilled it. Should i have left it for a couple more days?
> 
> ...




I am curious about this as well. This weekend i am going to put a weizen using WLP300. I am wondering if people use whirfloc, cold condition, finnings etc? With a beer which is so yeast driven do people try to extract a lot of the yeast out or is it better to have more residual yeast? 


Cheers, and cheers for the advice re the lower fermentation temps. I'll follow the 30 rule, pitch at 13 and ferment at 17.


----------



## newguy (7/3/10)

therook said:


> I kegged my first Wheaty for the year last week and it is my best one so far. I used Newguys method which was passed onto him from memory by Dave Logsdon from wyeast. Pitched a 1.5 litre starter into 20 litres of NON Aerated Wort ( No splashing at all ) and fermented at 18c. First time i have got the Banana/Clove balance the way i like it.
> 
> Thanks newguy
> 
> Rook



I'm really late but you're very welcome. I'm always happy to pass on tips & tricks. :beer:


----------



## rude (7/3/10)

rude said:


> I did a wiezen 50% Aust pilsener malt 50% weyermann wheat fermented at 18c unknowingly underpitched by a mile.
> 
> It was 1054 so needed a 4 litre starter according to mr malty. I pitched a wyeast into 1.5 litre starter & used half.
> 
> ...



My yeast was fine its been in the fermenter for 7 days now

The last one I left for 10 days & the krausen dissapeared so I will wait till it goes clear

Tried to ferment at 21c but started at 20c then it went down to 18c in my ferment chiller


----------



## rude (7/3/10)

newguy said:


> I'm really late but you're very welcome. I'm always happy to pass on tips & tricks. :beer:



Was the 1.5 litre a simple starter or on a stir plate cheers


----------



## Bizier (7/3/10)

I have brewed my first two hefe's using 3068 in the last month just passed. The first had a strange ferment taste, possibly due to a rocky ferment temp, but the second (steady 18 w/decent sized pitch) was very clean and quite nice, if a little bland. I am keen on getting the strong phenolics of a Schofferhofer hefe. I might try your non-aerated method Newguy, as that seems to make sense, and I am a little scared of underpitching.

Can anyone suggest another strain that might produce something closer to the Schofferhofer?

I had a Maisel Weiss on Friday night at the Concordia Club, man I love that beer. Was a little aged and heavily flocced, but a very tasty beer nonetheless.


----------



## manticle (7/3/10)

My one and only AG hefe used 3068 and a 3 step single decoction mash. Fermented low at 17 degrees, came very close to schoff. in my opinion.


----------



## Bizier (7/3/10)

Maybe I should have been more specific. I love the way that Schofferhofer has a more savoury (ham sandwich) kind of thing going on than the other hefe's. I find hefes can overwhelm me after a few, and I will reach for a more bitter beer to break things up. Schofferhofer has a slightly less sweet balance which I find quite pleasant, complex and sessionable, and I think the yeast profile has a lot to do with it.


----------



## newguy (8/3/10)

rude said:


> Was the 1.5 litre a simple starter or on a stir plate cheers



Not sure, you'd have to ask Rook. I don't think he ever mentioned a stirplate in the PMs we exchanged though....


----------



## petesbrew (21/10/10)

I'll be trying my first Weizen (and also a Witbier) for my next AG.
Still in planning stages, so regarding the base malt has anyone tried anything other than Pilsner? I have some Golden promise handy, but if it really makes that much difference I'll visit the LHBS & stock up on Pils.


----------



## Fourstar (21/10/10)

petesbrew said:


> I'll be trying my first Weizen (and also a Witbier) for my next AG.
> Still in planning stages, so regarding the base malt has anyone tried anything other than Pilsner? I have some Golden promise handy, but if it really makes that much difference I'll visit the LHBS & stock up on Pils.




i think you really want that sweetness from pilsner malt for a bog standard weizen, GP might work well. I guess you could try it.

For something different go for a Schneider Weisse style wheaty and use anything up to 50:50 Munich:Wheat. :icon_cheers:


----------



## petesbrew (21/10/10)

Fourstar said:


> i think you really want that sweetness from pilsner malt for a bog standard weizen, GP might work well. I guess you could try it.
> 
> For something different go for a Schneider Weisse style wheaty and use anything up to 50:50 Munich:Wheat. :icon_cheers:


Cheers Fourstar. It's worth a try, just interested to see if anyone's done differently than Pils before.


----------



## hsb (21/10/10)

Fourstar said:


> For something different go for a Schneider Weisse style wheaty and use anything up to 50:50 Munich:Wheat. :icon_cheers:



I've got a Schneider Weisse planned as my first foray into Wheat, using the recipe from the Wheeler/Protz book.
Never drunk one before but will be soon!

I was just going to go with the recipe/mash schedule exactly as listed (23l batch), what do you think, any comments/experiences? Cheers.


----------



## Weizguy (21/10/10)

hsb said:


> I've got a Schneider Weisse planned as my first foray into Wheat, using the recipe from the Wheeler/Protz book.
> Never drunk one before but will be soon!
> 
> I was just going to go with the recipe/mash schedule exactly as listed (23l batch), what do you think, any comments/experiences? Cheers.


The Protz/Wheeler Schneider recipe is superb and has a relatively large following in the AHB recipe section.

It's quickly becoming my house beer, and I'm making one for ANHC and another for Bitter and Twisted festival.

Recommend to use the W3638 (Bavarian Wheat) yeast around 20C, and you should not be disappointed. If you'll be at either the ANHC club night or the B&T festival, come for a visit and have a taste.



Fourstar said:


> i think you really want that sweetness from pilsner malt for a bog standard weizen, GP might work well. I guess you could try it.
> 
> For something different go for a Schneider Weisse style wheaty and use anything up to 50:50 Munich:Wheat. :icon_cheers:


To get the right wheat beer character, use 60-70% malted wheat. My lhbs temp ran out of Vienna, so I subbed light Munich in my latest batches of the Schneider-esque clone. A little darker and maltier, but should still be close to the right balance. The balance of the grist should be Pils, if you want the right balance, but feel free to experiment. I would stick to standard the first time , if the ingredients are to hand, and then experiment on later batches.

For my final 2 cents worth of opinion, I like the beer from the standard Protz/Wheeler recipe and don't see any need to change it unless ingredients are not available. It has tantalised my palate a few times and there will be more opportunities in future.

(*Edit) Oops, nearly forgot the mash regime. I like a 43-45C mash in for 20 min, then optional 50C protein rest for 20, and a sacc rest at 63C, then mash out.

Les (Schneider-clone appreciator)


----------



## beerbrewer76543 (21/10/10)

Les, do you have a link to that Protz/Wheeler recipe / any more details on it?

Cheers :beer:


----------



## hsb (21/10/10)

It's the link in my post above. Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## Weizguy (21/10/10)

L_Bomb said:


> Les, do you have a link to that Protz/Wheeler recipe / any more details on it?
> 
> Cheers :beer:


Above, as mentioned, and in the recipe database here

Enjoy, everyone....


----------



## petesbrew (28/10/10)

Les the Weizguy said:


> The Protz/Wheeler Schneider recipe is superb and has a relatively large following in the AHB recipe section.
> 
> It's quickly becoming my house beer, and I'm making one for ANHC and another for Bitter and Twisted festival.
> 
> ...



Cheers Les.
Looks like another trip back to the LHBS for some Pils.
<_< :unsure:


----------



## hwall95 (4/2/15)

Brewed this one last Thursday and pitched last Friday and it's just a few off points off finishing now, sitting around 1.015.

OG: 1.054 IBU: 14
FG: 1.013 Size: 21.5L
ABV: 5.4%

Ingredients:
2.88kg Pale Wheat Malt (Wey) - 60%
1.92kg Pilsner (Wey) - 40%
8g Magnum @ 60 min
1L starter of Wyeast 3638

Mash Schedule & Boil:
Acid Rest @ 43 - 20min
Beta Rest @ 67 - 60min
Mash Out @ 78 - Until Sparge water was ready
Sparge
Boil for 90min

Notes:
Fermented at 18, and raised to 20 today to help it finish. Trub was above tap and forgot to slant it originally so I just transferred it to secondary. Hopefully the last bit of fermentation will help push away some of the oxygen but shouldn't matter too much as I'm planning to keg it in a few days once it's cloudy rather then murky. Lost 2L due to trub, so current volume is 20.5L which considering I got 76% into fermentor, I'm not disappointed. Tasting really great, not over the top banana or bubblegum, and it has a great clove finish


----------



## hwall95 (14/3/15)

hwall95 said:


> Brewed this one last Thursday and pitched last Friday and it's just a few off points off finishing now, sitting around 1.015.
> 
> OG: 1.054 IBU: 14
> FG: 1.013 Size: 21.5L
> ...


This is by far the best beer I've made to style. From a blind taste test it was chosen 1st out of 4 commercials (weihenstephaner, shofferhofer, 4 pines, and erdinger) and 2 homebrews (including itself). Pretty keen to brew it again, if I can maintain consistency it may be my mid-year swap and house regular.

Sidenote: Size of starter was based on not having a stirplate which was still an underpitch


----------



## kaiserben (29/10/15)

Does anyone bottle Weizens in PET? (ie the PET bottles you can buy at LHBSs)

I assume it's relatively safe? Info is a bit sparse, but when googling I found mention that soft drinks are carbed at 3.7 volumes CO2. And I found some guy carbonating his own water/softdrink at 4 volumes CO2 with no problem (and claiming that the bottles can handle way more). 

They beer will be drunk fresh, so not particularly worried about losing CO2 over time, more worried about bottle bombs or mess. 

(eventually I'll start using champagne bottles, but until then want to know what's safe).


----------



## Droopy Brew (29/10/15)

Yes no problems at all.


----------



## Weizguy (29/10/15)

I have bottled in PET with this style and it seems OK to me.

Even with a contaminated beer, never had a PET bottle of weizen explode.

Also use 500 ml Euro-stubbies. Have also used reserved/frozen wort to carbonate weizen. Seems to improve foam/ bubble quality.


----------



## kaiserben (29/10/15)

Cheers guys! 



Les the Weizguy said:


> Have also used reserved/frozen wort to carbonate weizen. Seems to improve foam/ bubble quality.


During my research I saw you mention this and I reckon I'll give it a go. 

Is there a formula/way to figure out how much I should use to achieve a certain volume of CO2?


----------



## Weizguy (29/10/15)

kaiserben said:


> Cheers guys!
> 
> During my research I saw you mention this and I reckon I'll give it a go.
> 
> Is there a formula/way to figure out how much I should use to achieve a certain volume of CO2?


I have probably mentioned this elsewhere, but cannot be bothered to look.

I usually check the amount of malt that is required to produce the desired carbonation level for my volume of beer, in Beersmith (or other beer calculator). Call it x grams.
Then I measure the s.g. of the reserved wort, and create a new beer recipe with only malt extract and the volume of the reserved wort and keep adjusting the amount of extract until the 'new beer' recipe is the appropriate gravity at the relevant volume.
Then it's some simple maths to work out how much of your reserved wort is required to provide the x grams of reserved wort to carbonate your beer to the desired level.

Volume required = Weight of malt required/ Weight of malt in the reserved wort X Total reserved wort volume


----------



## kaiserben (26/11/15)

Could anyone (Les perhaps?) gimme a quick rundown of your preferred yeasts and what sort of cell count is required? 

I'm brewing this weekend and haven't organised my yeast yet. Dunno that a liquid yeast (<100bn cells) will be a large enough pitch and might be pushing it for time to create a starter.

I was looking at WLP351 (seemed to be popular amongst the strains I can easily get my hands on).


----------



## Matplat (26/11/15)

I pitched a smack pack of 3068 into 23l of 1.046 without a starter, finished at 1.008 with no effort. Smack pack was 2 months old....


----------



## Topher (26/11/15)

I use wb06 dried yeast. Tried one of the whitelabs and didn't care for it. Too sweet and bananary.

Last one with the wb went down to 1006 and I just chucked it in the cube for ferment - no oxygen, no transfer to fementer, not even any rehydration. I take alot more care with my other beers......but hefeweizens with this yeast seem to love the abuse.


----------



## Reman (27/11/15)

I've used wb06, wlp380 and wlp400 (wit) all direct pitched without a starter. All used a 42-67-78 step mash.

Wb06 and wlp400 turned out very good, nice clove. Wlp380 went wild on the bubblegum. So it may depend on what sort of hefe you like.

As topher said, I think hefe yeasts like a bit of abuse and under-pitching seems a regular practice for those who brew them often.


----------



## Weizguy (27/11/15)

kaiserben said:


> Could anyone (Les perhaps?) gimme a quick rundown of your preferred yeasts and what sort of cell count is required?
> 
> I'm brewing this weekend and haven't organised my yeast yet. Dunno that a liquid yeast (<100bn cells) will be a large enough pitch and might be pushing it for time to create a starter.
> 
> I was looking at WLP351 (seemed to be popular amongst the strains I can easily get my hands on).


Any of the appropriate wheat beer yeasts (weizen or wit, depending on what you want to brew). I find the WB-06 yeast underwhelming, and mostly have experience with the Wyeast range (W3068 and W3638). Although, I really enjoyed the James Squire wheat, brewed with WLP300.
Just pitch a single starter bag or tube, after sanitising the outside packaging.
That should be a good start. WLP351 will do the job as well as any...


----------



## kaiserben (27/11/15)

Cheers everyone. 

I've used WLP300 in a Roggenbier (happy with that, but it wasn't exactly a sessionable - though that was probably more to do with the viscosity from 50% rye rather than the yeast/ferment). I'l, probably try the WLP300 again at some stage, but keen to try the WLP351 this weekend. 

Red Hill Wheat Beer is the only Australian-made wheat that has really impressed me. Generally I'm a fan of German dunkelweizens, but Stortebeker Roggen-Weizen would have to be my favourite of anything mostly wheat.


----------



## kaiserben (14/12/15)

Update: 

I bottled the hefe the other day and there was hardly any yeast on the bottom of the fermenter (still obvious yeast there, just not even close to the amount with non-wheat yeasts). Gravity had got all the way down to 1.007 from 1.044. That's apparent attenuation of 84.09% and seems way too high. 

My main mash step was 63C, and that seems way too low (used WLP351), so now I was worried it might be infected. Ferment temps were 3 days at 17C, then 10 more days at 24C. 

I had been sipping on a saison, and started to convince myself that the weizen had the same smell/taste about it. Hopefully it was my mind playing tricks on me. I bottled anyway and will give it 1 week before putting the lot in a fridge and drinking asap. 

Thoughts?


----------



## Droopy Brew (14/12/15)

Low mash temp will give you the high attenuation so a finish at 1.007 doesnt appear to be extrordinary.

The saison qualities are likely to be due to the phenolics thrown by weizen yeasts (although I have no experience with this strain) I would have thought with 10 days at 24C you would be getting a lot of banana esters overpowering the phenols.

Or it could be infected with lacto giving you the sour /spicy characers. Hard to tell without tasting it. See if it gets worse I guess.


----------



## kaiserben (15/12/15)

Yeah. Although the first few days of intense ferment activity was controlled temps at 17C. So it might just be that I didn't treat the yeast poorly enough for banana.


----------



## kaiserben (15/12/15)

Next one will be a dunkelweizen and I'll have it at 24C from go to woah.


----------



## Fendercaster (21/12/15)

Hey All, 
First time post for me. Been brewing for a little now (extract on a keg setup) Looking at putting a wheat brew down this week and would love some input. 
Any recipe suggestions or a base to work on.
I am looking at doing a partial mash (steep) for this one too as i haven't done one yet but the process looks strait forward with a good result. 
Cheers


----------



## kaiserben (24/12/15)

Update 2: 
Now drinking the batch and the resulting hefeweizen is spectacular.


----------



## Weizguy (24/12/15)

Fendercaster said:


> Hey All,
> First time post for me. Been brewing for a little now (extract on a keg setup) Looking at putting a wheat brew down this week and would love some input.
> Any recipe suggestions or a base to work on.
> I am looking at doing a partial mash (steep) for this one too as i haven't done one yet but the process looks strait forward with a good result.
> Cheers


*Ingredients* Amount Item Type % or IBU

3.20 kg DME Wheat Bavarian (Muntons, or other brand) (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 100.0 % 
28.00g Saaz [4.00%] (60 min) Hops 14.1 IBU
10.00g Saaz [2.50%] (5 min) Hops 0.5 IBU
1 Pkgs Weihenstephan Weizen (Wyeast Labs #3068) [Starter 500 ml] Yeast-Wheat

No need for a partial mash with this one, especially if you only plan to steep, as there will be little to no benefit. Can substitute other wheat yeast varieties, but this is the Classic yeast (same as WLP300- WhiteLabs)


----------



## Weizguy (25/12/15)

No-chilled for 2 days, and pitched with a 1 litre culture today, and into the fridge (not absolutely easy to lift 40+ kg about a metre high into a fridge, as the SS olive oil fusti is too large for the fridge door to close when on the lower shelf ).

Should be ready to keg by the new year... Yay!


----------



## Fendercaster (25/12/15)

Les the Weizguy said:


> *Ingredients* Amount Item Type % or IBU
> 
> 3.20 kg DME Wheat Bavarian (Muntons, or other brand) (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 100.0 %
> 28.00g Saaz [4.00%] (60 min) Hops 14.1 IBU
> ...


Really appreciate your reply. I came to the understanding of not needing to steep the further i looked into the wheat brews. I ended up getting an ESB brand extract. Bavarian style Wheat. My LHBS recommended it to me, all hopped ready to go. I grabbed a Wb-06 yeast. I think this should get me into a good starting spot for Wheat beers. Then maybe expand from here.


----------



## Fendercaster (10/1/16)

So i have kegged my brew aftwr 2 weeks. Forced carbed. Cleaned very well. Pitched high, around 28c. Settled down to 22. Tasted it and its a nice start. Very wheat characteristics, but then i have a sour finish. Almost tart. Any thoughts?


----------



## Weizguy (11/1/16)

Sour in what way, please? Acetic/ vinegar sour, or lactic/ yoghurt sour, or other (please describe)?


----------



## Reman (11/1/16)

The normal flavours you may get in a wheat beer are bubble gum, banana and clove (spicy), anything else may be an infection as per Les' post above.


----------



## danestead (11/1/16)

I find wheat beers are slightly sour normally. How sour are you talking?


----------



## fraser_john (11/1/16)

I find hefeweizen has a pretty low pH after ferment (around 4?) and might attribute what people think as a sourness, but is more tart than sour.


----------



## kaiserben (11/1/16)

Dunno if you're familiar with the taste of weizens, so this info might already be obvious to you, but as well as what the others have mentioned weizens tend to have a more pronounced carbonic bite than most other beers. So a number of things could be making your palate sense sourness. 

I remember many moons ago, the first time I ever tried a German weizen I thought I was tasting infection. It was just very different to the beers I was used to at the time.


----------



## kaiserben (11/1/16)

kaiserben said:


> Next one will be a dunkelweizen and I'll have it at 24C from go to woah.


I'm now drinking this next batch and it's even better than the hefe (if that were even possible). 

I fermented this dunkelweizen with WLP300 without any temp control (ambient was low-mid-20s, so would've gone higher during ferment activity) and there's noticeable banana, but it's not crazy-banana and no off flavours detected at all. 

After losing my love for weizens I'm well and truly back in love with them. I've already brewed and pitched yeast into what is now my 3rd weizen batch within the past 5 weeks (which is good going considering I've brewed other stuff in between as well).


----------



## Fendercaster (11/1/16)

Les the Weizguy said:


> Sour in what way, please? Acetic/ vinegar sour, or lactic/ yoghurt sour, or other (please describe)?


Im sorry as to exact, but the best term mentioned is "Tart". Not vinegar or lactic. Similar to apricots. But tart. Palatable. I think im expecting an almost mellow aftertone. Im not getting too much banana notes. My thoughts are infection, i thought i was thorough but these things happen.


----------



## Weizguy (12/1/16)

> <Snipped>
> 
> After losing my love for weizens I'm well and truly back in love with them. I've already brewed and pitched yeast into what is now my 3rd weizen batch within the past 5 weeks (which is good going considering I've brewed other stuff in between as well).


How can you fall out of love with weizenbier?
What kind of a brewer/ drinker are you?

Anyhow, good to hear that you're reconciled again and back in honeymoon phase.


----------



## kaiserben (13/1/16)

I stopped brewing for a bit (well 10 years is more than a bit) due to a lack of space - and in the meantime most of the commercial stuff we get here is usually old and stale and/or light-struck. So my perception was warped by the stuff I was drinking.


----------



## WhiteLomu (16/1/16)

Reman said:


> The normal flavours you may get in a wheat beer are bubble gum, banana and clove (spicy), anything else may be an infection as per Les' post above.


Might just be me, but I also get pear from my hefes using WLP300 and from Franziskaner Hefe.
Cheers


----------



## Reman (16/1/16)

WhiteLomu said:


> Might just be me, but I also get pear from my hefes using WLP300 and from Franziskaner Hefe.
> Cheers


I must admit that I've never gotten pear from the Franziskaner's I've had, either on tap or from the bottle. Not saying you don't get it as everyone has different thresholds for the various flavour compounds.


----------

