# Adding salts to boil



## eldertaco (17/11/17)

I've been adding salts and acid to my strike and sparge water for a while now, but I was having a bit of a read around yesterday and it seems some people add salts to the boil.

Anyone here adding salts to the boil? What's the reasoning?


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## Ducatiboy stu (17/11/17)

If you have your water "salted" for strike and sparge then you wont need to add any to the boil


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## mtb (17/11/17)

I can only assume it'd be done to increase the sodium content, for yeast health. But you could just add that to the mash too.


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## eldertaco (17/11/17)

Sorry I maybe should have been more clear I meant just the usual suspects like gypsum and CaCl2


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## seamad (17/11/17)

Adding salts to the boil is akin to seasoning food imo. I've mucked around a little with it, but never done a side by side test to compare. Normally aim for 100ppm Ca in the mash, some of which ( 50% ?) is retained. I've then added to the boil various amounts depending on beer style. I like my beer, whether or not those boil additions played a significant part, who the **** knows. Have a shot at it.


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## manticle (17/11/17)

I add salts to kettle and mash, acid only to sparge.

Make sure mash and sparge pH are where you want and chloride/sulphate balanced in favour of desired beer profile overall.


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## mtb (17/11/17)

The only scenario where I could imagine someone adding gypsum/chloride to the boil is where their base water is already the correct acidity, and they want to fiddle with the sulfate:chloride ratio, but don't have any chalk on hand to up the pH to counteract the gypsum/chloride. Pretty rare though.


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## eldertaco (17/11/17)

manticle said:


> I add salts to kettle and mash, acid only to sparge.
> 
> Make sure mash and sparge pH are where you want and chloride/sulphate balanced in favour of desired beer profile overall.


That confirms what I thought people who were adding salts to the boil do, ie with regard to only using acid for sparge and moving salts from sparge to boil.

What's your reasoning for doing it this way instead of just adding the salts to your sparge though?

Is it maybe to limit their interaction with the grain in the mash and maybe leave more available for interaction with hops in the boil?

Just trying to understand what the difference is [emoji848]


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## rude (17/11/17)

I use R/O water & use Brun Water software to calculate
For a pale beer say a Kolsch I add Caso4 & CaCI2 to the mash which has some acid malt in the grist
to get to my desired ph
The rest goes straight into the boil this gets my ppms of calcium, sulphate & chloride where I want it
Always done it this way & my beers seem ok to me


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## manticle (17/11/17)

Calcium in the mash and calcium in the boil are both beneficial. Not sure how much gets bound up and left behind in the mash so I add a touch to the kettle too. Sulphate and/or chloride are for flavour/palate so as above - like seasoning a soup.

I researched water chem basics a few years ago and have forgotten a few things now but that is the idea from memory.


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## Dae Tripper (18/11/17)

Gypsum to the boil for me, helps make the hops sparkle.


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## MHB (18/11/17)

mtb said:


> The only scenario where I could imagine someone adding gypsum/chloride to the boil is where their base water is already the correct acidity, and they want to fiddle with the sulfate:chloride ratio, but don't have any chalk on hand to up the pH to counteract the gypsum/chloride. Pretty rare though.


There is no way that adding Sulphate or Chloride to the mash will get the pH down low enough to even reach ideal mash pH's let alone low enough to need to be adding Carbonate (Ok maybe a really dark malt rich >20% roast, stout grain bill would get close), an extremely big black stout is about the only time you would even think of adding Chalk.
There are some very real benefits to adding Calcium to the kettle - it encourages break formation, even helps the yeast to flock out properly at the end of the ferment.
If you have enough at the start of the mash, there should be enough to get most of the benefits of adequate Ca, provided you start with at least 50-100ppm and your water is low in carbonate to start with. I tend to start with about 150ppm of Ca in what ever form you like, but that's in Newcastle water that is low in most salts.

Have a look at how Ca salts lower pH through the formation of Ca Phosphates, there is a finite amount of Phosphate in malt, remember to that the pH of a Ca salt solution isn't acidic (well not very).
Mark


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## eldertaco (18/11/17)

All very interesting, I might try moving my sparge additions to the boil on the next batch.


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## MHB (18/11/17)

Carefully! - you want some salts in the mash water, sparge water should be acidified at a minimum, if not fully treated.
Adding more to the boil usually late is supplemental rather than a replacement for additions to the mash/sparge.
Rarely in brewing is it an either/or choice, most choices are compromises rather than absolutes...
Mark


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## eldertaco (18/11/17)

I normally just use Brun water to target either one of the profiles or aim for a specific sulfate:chloride ratio while keeping the pH within range using a touch of lactic acid, but it doesn't actually make any mention of boil additions.

Would I be better off moving half of the sparge additions (not including acid obviously) to the boil or just sticking with what it suggests and adding a bit extra to the boil maybe?

Without going overboard obviously, maybe 5 or so grams of gypsum to help with hop character for example...


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## manticle (18/11/17)

I split mine


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## rude (18/11/17)

My sparge addition goes to the kettle


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## Dan Pratt (18/11/17)

I've tried it a few times on pale ales and IPA s adding gypsum to 100ppm and calcium chloride 30ppm.


I've got a copy of Pliney the Elder recipe sheet which someone posted online from late 2014. They add gypsum and cal chloride with 10mins to go in the boil.

I've also ready with other brewerys that make IPAs that add more gypsum with the 90min hop additions.


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## fungrel (22/11/17)

I'll always add ~60ppm calcium (calcium hydroxide) to ales at the start of the boil, but I always use acid at the same time to ensure I'm at correct boil pH. If you add salts later in the boil it will change the pH but not as much as adding at the start of the boil. 

I never really add chloride / sulfate, I seem to get good hop character from mash only additions. I add calcium in boil because I find an identical recipe with same grist etc seems to floc and clear better with more calcium going into the boil / fermenter.


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## MHB (22/11/17)

What acid are you adding?
Ca(OH)2 +Acid = the Salt + water i.e. Sulphuric makes Calcium Sulphate, Chloride makes Calcium Chloride, Lactic makes Calcium Lactate (lets not even think about what Phosphoric does, except that its pretty insoluble). My local HBS stocks the salts above, adding a strong base, then neutralising it appears to be a fairly involuted way to get to the same place.
Seriously why?
Mark


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## rude (22/11/17)

fungrel said:


> I'll always add ~60ppm calcium (calcium hydroxide) to ales at the start of the boil, but I always use acid at the same time to ensure I'm at correct boil pH. If you add salts later in the boil it will change the pH but not as much as adding at the start of the boil.
> 
> I never really add chloride / sulfate, I seem to get good hop character from mash only additions. I add calcium in boil because I find an identical recipe with same grist etc seems to floc and clear better with more calcium going into the boil / fermenter.



What boil ph do you look for & when do you test it
I aim for about 60ppm of ca for ales & they drop nicely 
cheers rude


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## manticle (22/11/17)

As far as I'm aware, calcium hydroxide raises pH and is a preferred alternative to calcium carbonate in dark beers for that reason. Adding to the boil, then balancing pH down again by adding acid seems odd. At the very least, you're maybe adding more acid than you need to.


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## mabrungard (23/11/17)

This question regarding when to add salts during the brewing process, came up on the American Homebrewers Association forum a few days ago. You will find a detailed summary of reasons that you may or may not want to add salts to the kettle.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=30623.msg399705#msg399705


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## fungrel (23/11/17)

manticle said:


> As far as I'm aware, calcium hydroxide raises pH and is a preferred alternative to calcium carbonate in dark beers for that reason. Adding to the boil, then balancing pH down again by adding acid seems odd. At the very least, you're maybe adding more acid than you need to.



This is true, but if you are adding anything (salts) to the boil you are either driving the pH down or or driving it up. I would be adding just as much acid in the mash if adding the hydroxide there instead of the boil.

Why wouldn't it make sense to get the pH in the 5.1-5.2 range? The hot break behaves exactly as it should, looks healthy. 

I am more than happy to be corrected on this subject


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## MHB (23/11/17)

Ok
The solutions of CaCl2 and CaSO4 are both pretty neutral (the pH is around 7)
The Ca reacts with phosphates in the mash, the CaPhos is pretty insoluble, so the Ca is taken out of solution, this (to put it badly) leaves the Acid part of the salt in solution which lowers the pH.
It makes lots of sense to get the pH down to 5.1-5.3, just not the way you are doing it. In effect you are taking one step up then two steps down.
You are adding to the total amount of minerals in solution, as well as overcomplicating the process.
Mark


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## manticle (23/11/17)

fungrel said:


> This is true, but if you are adding anything (salts) to the boil you are either driving the pH down or or driving it up. I would be adding just as much acid in the mash if adding the hydroxide there instead of the boil.
> 
> Why wouldn't it make sense to get the pH in the 5.1-5.2 range? The hot break behaves exactly as it should, looks healthy.
> 
> I am more than happy to be corrected on this subject


Why add calcium hydroxide at all unless you need to drive pH up (in which case, no need for acid at all)?


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## fungrel (23/11/17)

manticle said:


> Why add calcium hydroxide at all unless you need to drive pH up (in which case, no need for acid at all)?


To increase calcium levels, without adding either chloride, sulfate or sodium.

It's strange, my beers always do well in local and state comps so quality isn't affected. Fermentation is sound. Guess I am overcomplicating things by not adding to the mash but didn't really know why it couldn't just be added to the boil instead. To me, it's not complicated, seems more logical.

My mash has over 50ppm calcium so oxyalate precipitation shouldn't be an issue.

EDIT: Sorry to derail the original post.


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## manticle (23/11/17)

It’s your beer of course and if you’re happy with results then great.

Any reason you avoid sulphate or chloride? High levels already?


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## fungrel (23/11/17)

Quite the opposite, I like beers with low mineralisation. 

Making a lot of light coloured lower IBU/alcohol beers so keeping the balance in check by ensuring the water profile is out of the way.


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## MHB (23/11/17)

Have asked what acid you are using, with out an answer it's hard to comment effectively.
Also curious about your supply of Calcium Hydroxide, where is that coming from?
Mark


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## fungrel (23/11/17)

MHB said:


> Have asked what acid you are using, with out an answer it's hard to comment effectively.
> Also curious about your supply of Calcium Hydroxide, where is that coming from?
> Mark


Acid is 85% phosphoric.

Hydroxide is food grade picking lime, coming from an au retailer. Will dig up link when I get more time.


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## MHB (23/11/17)

3Ca(OH)2 + 2H3PO4 > Ca3(PO4)2 + 6H2O, Ca(OH)2 is not very soluble (something like 25mg/L from memory)
You are really adding two chemicals that react to form an insoluble salt, then enough extra acid to get the pH down to where you wanted it. I'm having a great deal of difficulty understanding why you don't get that this is a really silly thing to be doing.

If you don't believe me, make up a solution of your CaOH2, add some Phosphoric and watch what happens.
Mark


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## fungrel (23/11/17)

MHB said:


> 3Ca(OH)2 + 2H3PO4 > Ca3(PO4)2 + 6H2O, Ca(OH)2 is not very soluble (something like 25mg/L from memory)
> You are really adding two chemicals that react to form an insoluble salt, then enough extra acid to get the pH down to where you wanted it. I'm having a great deal of difficulty understanding why you don't get that this is a really silly thing to be doing.
> 
> If you don't believe me, make up a solution of your CaOH2, add some Phosphoric and watch what happens.
> Mark


Noted.

Perhaps in reading your messages I confused your helpful attitude with a condescending one. I never said I was confident in what I was doing, although given your previous response I'm hesitant to post anything else.


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## MHB (23/11/17)

I use Calcium Lactate / Lactic acid for beers where I want to as you say keep the water profile out of the way (like the little farmhouse sitting in the keg
Lactate/Lactic is a very powerful buffer, so it helps to keep the pH exactly where you want it, adds no Cl or SO4, in short its very effective.

What you are doing is basically a total waste of money (if nothing else), I know I can come across as being a bit terse rather than condescending, put it down to being a very dyslexic, slow typer .
Mark


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## fungrel (23/11/17)

MHB said:


> I use Calcium Lactate / Lactic acid for beers where I want to as you say keep the water profile out of the way (like the little farmhouse sitting in the keg
> Lactate/Lactic is a very powerful buffer, so it helps to keep the pH exactly where you want it, adds no Cl or SO4, in short its very effective.
> 
> What you are doing is basically a total waste of money (if nothing else), I know I can come across as being a bit terse rather than condescending, put it down to being a very dyslexic, slow typer .
> Mark



Ah ok.

I'm happy to be corrected at any time. I'm still a novice that needs correcting. If I'm wasting money, just don't tell the other half. 

I think all my reading about calcium in mash / boil lead down this path.


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## rude (23/11/17)

The only time Ive use slaked lime in my pale ale was when I went the big caso4 hit
Needed it to get to my ph in the mash
Didnt like the outcome so never gone that way again
I find just using caso4 & cacl2 in a pale ale gives me enough ca in the mash & boil


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