# Grassy/vegetal flavours in pale ale but no other styles



## Doctormcbrewdle (29/10/21)

I've been struggling with pales for quite some time now and think I may have finally realised it may be down to me switching from chill to no chill since. I adjust my hop schedules so ibu remains as it should and just dry hop later on (have tried keg hopping, late fermentation, post fermentation, early fermentation, all are equally as bad) and every single pale lately has been disappointing and full of weird grassy flavours rather than any dank, resinous hop character, and this is just using 1 90 minute charge of any popular US pale ale type hop.

What's getting me is I use copious amounts of low alpha noble hops in pilsners and they all end up great! That's what's really making me wonder just what the hell's going on because it just seems contradictory, what's the difference between me using 90 minute hops in a pale Vs pils and the pale always ending up terrible?

Any thoughts?


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## MHB (29/10/21)

I suspect you are going to need to pull your processes apart a bit more to help find exactly what is going on.
Doing a 90 minute boil should eliminate most of the common faults but a good look at both Diacetyl and Acetaldehyde might be worthwhile.
Search through this for both and Grassy and Vegetal might give you some clues.
Mark


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## Markbeer (30/10/21)

Isn't it the dry hop that's causing problems? When you chill you can use hops late and then the chilling stops the utilisation.

Dry hopping will add less fruity and resinous and adds more grassy and vegetal flavours. It's for this reason I only ever add hops late then chill. IPA all in the last 2 minutes.

I once dry hopped with hallertau. Try it and you won't do it again.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (30/10/21)

Thanks guys, I'll check that article out.

It may well be hop creep, or biotransformation of dry hops, yes. I'm really not sure, but why is it only happening to me? I've tried using cryo/luplin hops in small amounts to see if this would remedy but nope


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## Doctormcbrewdle (30/10/21)

Possibly acetaldehyde Mark(?) I'll let this current keg sit a couple months and see if it clears up. I had been using gelatin too which was making the active yeast fall out pretty quickly so possible it still had some cleaning up to do but couldn't


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## Unslaven (30/10/21)

Have you checked your pH, and do you know your yeast pitch rate?

Dry hopping will increase your pH, and to compound the issue, both hops and ethanol are poisonous to yeast, which can in turn cause the pH to rise if the yeast die, and are unable to maintain the pH gradient.

I had a similar issue, where my dry hopped beers were sitting around the PH 4.5 mark before dry hopping, and finishing at 4.75 after a big dry hop (8 G/pL).

Take into account that anything above PH 4.6 is not considered food safe, and bacteria can start to thrive. Also, the yeast are unable to adequately clean up any off flavours (such as diacetyl etc) caused by hop creep in that pH range (above pH 4.5), and will start to lose viability very quickly.

I'm not sure that this is 100% your issue, but if you have the means to test the pH, it may be an eye opener. 
If that does turn out to be an issue, you could try pre acidifying in the kettle (knock out @ pH 4.9-5.2) or some pro brewers even acidify with the dry hop addition, although this is harder to do without the ability to properly mix or adding oxidisation issues to the problem.

There is a really great summary of all of this in the first 5 minutes of episode 217 of the Master Brewers podcast. 
I would strongly suggest having a listen.

Dry Hopping & Yeast Health


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## Doctormcbrewdle (30/10/21)

Hmm, thanks Unslaven. That's alot to think about.

You know the more I think the more things may make sense because this seems to have all started when I also switched from carting town water in cubes to just using groundwater (we're on bore at home). I've only just started looking at my water (albeit very basically) and throwing in a couple of teaspoons acid assuming I'd be sitting somewhere around the pH 8 because of all the rock we sit on. I haven't paid to have it tested but it will leave white calcium stains on my windshield with even just one car wash without a dry so who really knows what else I might be dealing with but I'm assuming lime is a culprit, which could potentially throw our ph even higher.. 

You've given me something to persue, thanks so much


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## Doctormcbrewdle (30/10/21)

Geez man, I really think this is my issue. Like this e host says, my lagers continue to kick ass, whearas the pales are all over the place. I repitch slurry, just like they talk about so this must be it. I've got to throw this us05 and get a new one started and really ideally use a new one every time. I also assumed hops acidified beer, whearas it's actually the opposite.

It's made me rethink my entire yeast repitch schedule actually and things have just gotten a but more exxy


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## Unslaven (30/10/21)

Ahh yes the old water issue. Whether it's chlorine in tap water or just the unknowns of all of minerals. I'm lucky to be on tank, but that has it's own issues.
Who knows, maybe you'll conquer it and rename your brewery 'Big Bore Brewing co' and people will be chasing your water profile for years to come.

Re pitching is it's whole own issue, but if you're trying to isolate a problem, starting with fresh yeast is a no brainer. 

Ps: Master brewers is a black hole of knowledge. It blows my brain some days and I'll have to relisten to the whole episode just to go back and recap everything they say early on which I haven't even grasped the concept of yet. That episode I linked is an especially good one. Just don't start listening to them all in order because the first few go sooo deep on malt COA's and referencing mash efficiency in relation to betaglucan percentages in malt that you'll start thinking that you need a PHD to even start learning from it.

Let us know if you manage to isolate the problem. And buy a cheap pH meter. PH is so much more important in beer than the homebrew world gives it credit for. I wish there was more publicly available information and not countless posts saying that pH only matters in the mash. 

Good luck.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (30/10/21)

Mark my words, I'll be back


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## MHB (30/10/21)

Here is a good basic starter.
Mark


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## MHB (31/10/21)

Worth reading through what Braukaiser has to say on pH to.
One point I think it’s really important to understand is that brewing is a "batch" process. Means that what you put into the fermenter depends on what you put in the kettle, depends on what you put in the mash...
The pH should be falling at every step (mash>kettle>ferment>finished beer). Apart from the additions of acid you might make the bulk of the pH lowering comes from Calcium reacting with Phosphates and forming insoluble Calcium Phosphate, it also removes Oxalates and is used by yeast in every case removing Calcium causes the pH to fall.
It is said that 50-100ppm of Ca is the minimum required. Personally I find 150ppm at the start is enough in my local water to achieve all the targets we have for Ca in the brew. It isn’t enough* to get the mash pH where I want it, that requires some acid (I prefer Lactic) but am finding that 4% Sour malt in blond and around 2-2.5% in dark beers is enough.
Mineralising and pH adjustment to sparge water is really important, I tend to treat all my water up front, then acidify sparge water if using sour malt (very small addition required just to get under pH7).
Mark

* Just salt additions will rarely get the pH lower than ~6.5pH, there simply isnt enough Phosphate available in malt.
M


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## Doctormcbrewdle (17/11/21)

UPDATE 1

I received my water test strips in the mail and everything (surprisingly) appears really good. pH is hovering around 6.7 (still haven't yet calibrated my meter which also came in the mail) and everything else tests good. The 1 and only thing that is off the charts is "hardness". It's at the top of the scale. Who knows what sort of hardness exactly but its a start. The strip's aren't for brewing, mainly heavy metals etc etc, just gives the basics. Fluoride was also indicated at higher than average ratio too come to think of it

My latest pale ale has been fermenting almost two weeks now using Town water, a little smb to ward off chlorine, a tadd acid to bring pH to around 5 for mash, fresh us05 and fast chill.

Time will tell how this one goes but I'm expecting good things


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## Doctormcbrewdle (23/11/21)

Just calibrated my meter and done a few tests.

My tap water is reading 7.2, which is alot lower than I would have assumed otherwise

A pilsner that tastes quite good on tap fo a couple of months now measures 4.9 (seems high..?)

My latest pale ale just kegging today, smelling great I might add! Made with town water and everything else overhauled at 4.4 (still high?)

I actually added more acid than I thought I'd need to the mash without a pH meter at the time, 2 teaspoons of citric, then another half teaspoon at flameout with the 200gm hop stand.


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## An Ankoù (23/11/21)

Markbeer said:


> Isn't it the dry hop that's causing problems? When you chill you can use hops late and then the chilling stops the utilisation.
> 
> Dry hopping will add less fruity and resinous and adds more grassy and vegetal flavours. It's for this reason I only ever add hops late then chill. IPA all in the last 2 minutes.
> 
> I once dry hopped with hallertau. Try it and you won't do it again.


That's pretty much my experience, too, particularly with traditional English hops like Goldings. When I dry hop, I don't let them soak for more than 48 hours max, but I've pretty much moved over to using a hop steep at <80C. 
I've noticed the same flavour in one or two commercial IPAs, too.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (26/11/21)

UPDATE. Just putting a pils on the mash. I threw in my 2tsp citric acid as calculated using an online resource then remembered I now had the pH meter to test. 3.6pH..! Damn. So my pale ale went in at the same, no wonder the water tasted acidic. Reminder to take anything you read online with a big grain of salt.

Funny thing is it seems to be turning out just great but will wait a few weeks before giving a proper verdict.

My pilsner, however has just been adjusted with some baking soda to 5

Over for now


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## peteru (26/11/21)

The pH of the water can easily be 3.6, that's not the issue. What you are interested is the pH of the mash, after about 10-15 minutes. Similarly, when you sparge, the important figure is the pH of the runnings, not the water you use for sparging.

Even small amounts of acid additions will bring plain water pH right down, since it has minimal buffering capacity.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (26/11/21)

True Peter. I had a finished pH (post boil) of 5.6 in the end after 165gms 3%aa Saaz

First time I've ever bothered adjusting sparge water too, always just used tap

May I ask what pH you guys are douging in at?


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## peteru (26/11/21)

My last brew pH values:
Mash: 5.3
Sparge last runnings: 5.6
Post boil: 5.0

I used 88% Lactic acid to adjust. 1.5mL in 14L mash and 2mL in 18L sparge.

Of course, these figures will vary with your water and with the grain bill. This particular batch had a lot of dark malts, so not much acid was required. The pale ale I brewed before this needed a lot more acid to get the pH to the right range.


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## MHB (26/11/21)

+1 to what peteru said.

I can’t think of a worse choice of acids than citric (well maybe Oxalic....), you would be way better off using Lactic (my go to) or Phosphoric, commercially people even use Hydrochloric and Sulphuric acids but nobody uses Citric acid.
With 88% Lactic 0.6mL/kg of grist will lower the pH by 0.1.
As a Braumeister brewer, mashing in at ambient, wait 10-20 minutes for the malt to hydrate and everything to equilibrate, take a sample close to 20oC, measure pH and add acid to need. Then start ramping up to mashing temperatures.
Most of my recipes these days include enough Sour Malt to get me very close so it’s just a fine tune to put me in the optimum pH range (5.2-5.4).
Sour Malt is standardised (at least the Weyermann one is) so that 1% of grist lowers the pH by 0.1pH.
Mark

Edit
Read up on Resitual Alkalinity.
M


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## yankinoz (27/11/21)

I can’t think of a worse choice of acids than citric (well maybe Oxalic....),
[/QUOTE]

I'll take citric over hydrocyanic.


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## MHB (27/11/21)

Point, hard to buy Prussic without an EUD, police check, a good gas mask...


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## yankinoz (27/11/21)

MHB said:


> Point, hard to buy Prussic without an EUD, police check, a good gas mask...



I've heard certain notorious Gemans carried it in handy capsule form, but presumably not in brewing . Das ist Reinheitsgebot nicht.

In brewing I use phosphoric (if at all), never citric, but what is the knock on the latter? Too lemony a taste?


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## Doctormcbrewdle (27/11/21)

Thanks guys.

I know citric isn't exactly revered by aficionados the world over but it was better than nothing and all I could get locally on the day. I read people don't generally like the taste but thought I'd just see for myself and can't actually taste it as yet so have just kept on using it


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## MHB (27/11/21)

Persistant sourness that caries right through to the finished beer. Well all acids taste sour but Citric is the most sour tasting of the useful acids.
If you want a good example taste Salvital (the stir in fizzy drink) its made with Tartaric acid and Bicarbonate. Citric is way cheaper but if you made a mix of Citric and Bicarb (at the right ratio) it would be undrinkably sour.

Have used both Phosphoric and Lactic; choose Lactic for two main reasons. First is I prefer the taste of beer made with lactic. Second is that something like 90% of the acidity in a pale beer comes from naturally occurring Lactic acid growing on the outside of the malt, so we are just adding a little more of something that occurs naturally in the mash. There are a couple of other factors like the buffering ability of Lactic that lead me to favour it but they are the main two.
Mark


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## Doctormcbrewdle (27/11/21)

Just sampling the proper made pale I bottled from dregs that wouldn't fit in the keg. It's only a week old and sat hot outdoors at somewhere around 35 degrees so has carbed up fully.

Impressions? Apart from the tiniest bit acetaldehyde that I dare say will disappear in a couple more days (and you really have to look for it) this beer is a 10/10. I wouldn't be able to pick it wasn't made by someone like Feral if it was bought in some trendy pub. The hop flavour is off the charts, along with a moderate/strong nose of the 10gms centennial hop hash I placed in dry three days from crashing. It's a citrus bomb and funnily enough reminds me of mandarin, that's what I get from Centennial, though there were copious amounts of Cascade and Mosaic for all bittering in the whirlpool

Thanks so much guys, you've really helped a brother out so cheers to you!!


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## Doctormcbrewdle (27/11/21)

A better pic, appears a little darker in photos for some reason. Like a proud Dad. Look at my son, look at what I've done!!


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## An Ankoù (27/11/21)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> View attachment 121551
> 
> Just sampling the proper made pale I bottled from dregs that wouldn't fit in the keg. It's only a week old and sat hot outdoors at somewhere around 35 degrees so has carbed up fully.
> 
> ...


That looks a lovely pint. It's only 3.5C and thick, grim, grey drizzle here in sunny Brittany, but I could happily sit on the terrace and drink a pint of that. What recipe did you use, if that's not an impertinent question?


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## An Ankoù (27/11/21)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> A better pic, appears a little darker in photos for some reason. Like a proud Dad. Look at my son, look at what I've done!!View attachment 121552


Nah, that's not a better picture. Half of it's gone missing!


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## Doctormcbrewdle (27/11/21)

Haha, Gold mate 

It's actually the Pirate Life pale ale recipe I got from the head brewer just without the Carafa. Pale, carahell, medium crystal, bittering at flameout to 45ibu


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## An Ankoù (27/11/21)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Haha, Gold mate
> 
> It's actually the Pirate Life pale ale recipe I got from the head brewer just without the Carafa. Pale, carahell, medium crystal, bittering at flameout to 45ibu


Unheard of here in France, but I've found a couple of recipes online with 5-star ratings so I'll give it a go. I see they they also do a Mosaic IPA, n harm in trying that one, too. 
All the best.


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## An Ankoù (2/12/21)

Inspired by Doctormcbrewdle's enthusiasm for Pirate Life Pale Ale, I decidd to have a go, since I'd never heard of it before this thread and the chances of it ever turning up in France are negligible. Found a couple of recipes and with some guidance from the venerable Doc, I've got what I reckon is a pretty good recipe. We'll see.
So, with Pale Ale Malt from Ireland, Carahell from England and Crystal malt from England, Carafa from Germany. Hops from Germany and the U.S. water from France and Yeast from Canada I'm putting together an Aussie interpretation of an American Pale Ale. What could possibly go wrong!


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## Doctormcbrewdle (11/12/21)

Just done making another. Mash pH was 5.3 with 1tsp citric acid. Then after that I checked calibration again my tap water and it had gone out 1 full point higher.. messing around with the samples I found it must have something to so with temperature because placing it into my cold water sample it would start correct while warm from the wort sample and slowly rise a full point higher than it should have. So really who knows exactly where I mashed in but if my assumptions are correct it was 5.3.

Final wort after hops thrown in a cold, I'm choosing to adjust to pH 5 before pitching the yeast. (pH 6 with my meter in it's current state..)

Have reordered some calibration solution along with storage solution and will never measure even remotely warm wort again


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## yankinoz (11/12/21)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Just done making another. Mash pH was 5.3 with 1tsp citric acid. Then after that I checked calibration again my tap water and it had gone out 1 full point higher.. messing around with the samples I found it must have something to so with temperature because placing it into my cold water sample it would start correct while warm from the wort sample and slowly rise a full point higher than it should have. So really who knows exactly where I mashed in but if my assumptions are correct it was 5.3.
> 
> Final wort after hops thrown in a cold, I'm choosing to adjust to pH 5 before pitching the yeast. (pH 6 with my meter in it's current state..)
> 
> Have reordered some calibration solution along with storage solution and will never measure even remotely warm wort again



By point higher, do you mean up to 5.4 or to 6.3? The first is no worry, the second about three times larger than corrections from mash temps usually specify.

It's a recurring topic. For a discussion with several links, see Setting the Record Straight on Mash pH - Brew Your Own


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## Doctormcbrewdle (11/12/21)

I mean an entire point higher, ie: 7 to 8pH (my water is 7.2 but was reading 8.2 after checking the mash vs normal water to make sure it was still calibrated, which it wasn't) I did check the calibration before this though so am sure it was OK to begin the mash with. After the next warm reading was when the meter jumped a point.

Thanks for the link, will take a look

Edit, the article talks about a plus 0.35 reading for warm mash samples, which is understandable, though my meter must be bugging out because I cooled the sample and checked again afterwards and it still read the same.. it is cheap rubbish though, one of those $10 jobs from Ebay

I'll be happy enough to get a couple of accurate readings using my town water and knowing how much acid to use per lager or pale ale because that's mainly what I make. Hopefully this next calibration will be accurate enough for at least a couple more brews, fingers crossed


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## An Ankoù (12/12/21)

An Ankoù said:


> Inspired by Doctormcbrewdle's enthusiasm for Pirate Life Pale Ale, I decidd to have a go, since I'd never heard of it before this thread and the chances of it ever turning up in France are negligible. Found a couple of recipes and with some guidance from the venerable Doc, I've got what I reckon is a pretty good recipe. We'll see.
> So, with Pale Ale Malt from Ireland, Carahell from England and Crystal malt from England, Carafa from Germany. Hops from Germany and the U.S. water from France and Yeast from Canada I'm putting together an Aussie interpretation of an American Pale Ale. What could possibly go wrong!


Said brew is well and truly underway having been ten days, now, in the fermenter. It doesn't look like @Doctormcbrewdle 's version because I put the Carafa in. As it was for colour, I went with the Carafa Special #3 by Weyermann. It's astonishing what such a small quantity of black malt can do to the colour!! If I make a second batch I'll leave it out, I think. The dry hop charge went in when the wort had cooled to 75C and steeped for 30 minutes before cooling to pitching temperature. Pitched with CML "Five", which is a standard Chico yeast repackaged for a Scottish company. This is instead of the Canadian offering, which, last time I used it, was a bit "eggy".
Just going to have a taste.
... smells and tastes great straight out of the fermenter. It's flat, of course and there's just a tad of astringency on the finish. I reckon that's being carried on the slight yeast haze that's still present. I'll bottle it up tomorrow if the FG is there, and it tastes as though it is. Can't wait for this one to carb up so I can toast the Doc's good health with it.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (12/12/21)

Good to hear all's going well with it An

Yes, Pirate has been known to experiment a little with their recipes, I remember a time on both extremes where I had one that was almost bright red and also once where I thought they'd accidental popped a brown ale in the can once poured into a glass. Both tasted great though.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (26/12/21)

Made a pils this morning using 95% fresh caught rainwater so will be interesting to see how this pans out in a few months. Just added some acid and gypsum.

Recalibrated my pH meter but think it's broken. It reads perfectly in all three solutions but every single beer I have on tap and including a bottle of Grolsch tested reads 4.7pH and does not waiver one bit, which I find hard to believe is accurate. My water now reads 7.8pH and rainwater 6.5ph.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (4/3/22)

Update

@Unslaven thanks so much for your wisdom man. Truly, I have been making the best beers time after time now lately. Going down the pub with a mate tomorrow and I'm already dreading drinking tap beer I know it's not going to be as nice as what's at home on tap. Just wanted to say thanks so much. Really appreciate it man so cheers!


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## Unslaven (10/3/22)

Hey doc,
Super happy to hear you got the issue sorted. I'm glad I could pass on some of the knowledge taught to me. Nobody wants more bad beer in the world, and I feel you about being forced to drink commercial.

With the amount you seem to be brewing, I would suggest splashing for a decent pH meter. Decent measurement tools (Gravity/Temperature/pH) are the absolute key to consistancy (and Dissolved oxygen and Co2 if you have a spare $30k haha) Just note when buying pH meters that pH probes are a consumable resource (and very fragile), so don't buy a $1000 meter thinking your done for good, when replacement probes are $400. Even the kegland/kegking PH meters aren't bad, and probes are cheap, but ATC is a myth. Get every sample as close to the calibration temp as you can.

(If you don't do this already) Fill a bucket with ice then top up to the ice line with some water. Put a small wort sample in something like a stainless coffee cup and swoosh it round in the top of the ice. I can knock a 100c sample down to 25 in under 20 seconds (metal cup is key for this). Just make sure you transfer back to plastic when you measure, as the conductivity of the stainless will ruin your measurements.

Of course, if what your doing is working, then don't fix it?

Happy brewing!


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