# HDPE plastic container water test..



## Mizz (19/8/13)

Okay so i've not been happy with these plastic fermenters so i did a test to see how it was affecting the taste of clean tap water. I bought a brand new HDPE plastic fermenter from grain and grape and did my usually treatment with boiling water until I could no longer smell the strong new plastic smell, and also cleaned a used fermenter (6 or so batches) with a boiling water rinse. I let these sit upside down until fully drained then filled with cold tap water to the 20L mark. Sat at room temp over night at 14c then the following day did a blind test with three people- One glass tap water (straight from the tap/one glass tap water left to sit over night(in the glass)/one glass from each fermenter.

Result 

~ All could tell the ones that were in the plastic
"leaves a strange coating in my mouth" "taste like plastic" These are just a couple of the things mentioned. All were negative responses.

~ All preferred the glass of tap water left out over night
"taste like nothing" "very clean"

~All picked the tap water

~ All complained of a slight headache after drinking the water from the plastic fermenter

Make what you will of it.


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## stakka82 (19/8/13)

Interesting, would like to see the results of this with a bigger sample size.


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## Silver (19/8/13)

Mizz said:


> ~ All complained of a slight headache after drinking the water from the plastic fermenter
> 
> Make what you will of it.


Are you taking the piss.


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## Mizz (19/8/13)

Silver said:


> Are you taking the piss.


Nope. That's just what happened. Everybody independantly complained of a headache or some level of disconfort. I also had the samples and felt the same thing. I assume its not from the tap water sample or the sample left to sit over night.. It could be from drinking too much water... although we only had two glasses or so each which I assume is not enough to do that.

Just sharing the results of a test I wanted to do. No piss taking here.


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## spryzie (19/8/13)

Was it a double blind test?


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## Mizz (19/8/13)

spryzie said:


> Was it a double blind test?


Yes. I had someone else move the samples around (without me in the room) after I placed them on the table - they didnt know what was what. All uniform clean glasses.


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## Mizz (19/8/13)

Also blind folded (with tea towels) and someone else pouring the samples. All glasses were marked with a random number that I came up with for each sample. Nobody was sick, hungover or on drugs. That I know of..


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## Online Brewing Supplies (19/8/13)

Quote :"and also cleaned a used fermenter (6 or so batches) with a boiling water rinse"
I would have left this out as you were trying to test the fermenter as sold right ?
Got a pic of the tested fermenter ? I would be interested on the manufactures take on your findings.
Nev


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## RelaxedBrewer (19/8/13)

Mizz said:


> ~ All complained of a slight headache after drinking the water from the plastic fermenter


This seems very strange to me.
Did it happen straight after drinking the water?
Did it happen when drinking water from both the used and new fermenter?
How much water was drunk for each test?
How many people were doing your test?

RB


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## JDW81 (19/8/13)

Good excuse to go and buy a stainless conical....


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## Mizz (19/8/13)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Quote :"and also cleaned a used fermenter (6 or so batches) with a boiling water rinse"
> I would have left this out as you were trying to test the fermenter as sold right ?
> Got a pic of the tested fermenter ? I would be interested on the manufactures take on your findings.
> Nev



I was trying to test wether after all my usual practices the plastic fermenters were having any taste affect on the water. I'm also going to keep doing these tests for the next couple of days to see if it gets worse as I leave beer in there for two to three weeks.. If you put beer straight in the fermenter as sold it would be rancid. The smell of a new fermenter is overwhelmingly plasticky.

As to the brand I'm not sure but it's whatever grain and grape stock.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (19/8/13)

What I was getting at is you may have actually released more plastic tastes by heating to near boiling temps.
I am sure HDPE has a heat range that designates it as food grade.
Nev


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## Mizz (19/8/13)

RelaxedBrewer said:


> This seems very strange to me.
> Did it happen straight after drinking the water?
> 
> For me it was very soon after, all within an hour or so. I didn't expect this and don't understand it but we all felt crap.
> ...


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## NewtownClown (19/8/13)

Two sample were left out overnight allowing chlorine to dissipate whilst the third sample was poured straight from the tap. No wonder the tap water could be identified so readily from among the three samples


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## Silver (19/8/13)

I've noticed my kids get a headache after drinking milk from a plastic container sometimes. It maybe just a coincidence but it usually happens when a homework assignment is due that day. Sorry m8, you maybe serious but this sounds ridiculous. People have been drinking water from plastic for yonks and now there is a small pocket where people are getting headaches from it.


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## Mizz (19/8/13)

NewtownClown said:


> Two sample were left out overnight allowing chlorine to dissipate whilst the third sample was poured straight from the tap. No wonder the tap water could be identified so readily from among the three samples


Obviously. 

Three samples were left overnight. Two fermenters and glass of water.

The glass sample was to make sure no bad flavours were getting in through air contact. Just to be sure.


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## Mizz (19/8/13)

Silver said:


> I've noticed my kids get a headache after drinking milk from a plastic container sometimes. It maybe just a coincidence but it usually happens when a homework assignment is due that day. Sorry m8, you maybe serious but this sounds ridiculous. People have been drinking water from plastic for yonks and now there is a small pocket where people are getting headaches from it.


The headache part of this really isn't a big deal for me it was just something that came up. The taste is what I'm interested in, as the alcohol will give me a headache for sure!!


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## treefiddy (19/8/13)

VOCs (volatile organic compounds) do leach out of plastics, but as far as I can tell the concentrations which they are present are generally recognised as safe.

VOCs are highly volatile, and generally have a very low taste threshold. If you have a browse through the Australian drinking water guidelines (ADWG) these compounds typically have a taste threshold orders of magnitude less than the given health threshold.

You and your friends can tell which glasses of water have the VOCs in, so what you are most likely experiencing is the nocebo effect. If you are generally worried that it’s not, you can get in touch with the EPA. They should be able to suggest an appropriate testing laboratory, the test suite, and an approximate cost.

Nev, I think it's about 80°C. Edit: on second thought, I think I was thinking about something else. Too much thinking, I think.


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## citizensnips (19/8/13)

Cheers for sharing the research mate. Findings are interesting. I like some have always been against using plastic for anything consumable related however with brewing there wasn't too many alternatives. Regardless I have been eyeing of the glass fermenter for a long time and although they may be a little harder to work with, I recon they're the go. The only thing I would say is that putting boiling water on it will cause it to soften and leach some unwanted properties/flavours. As others have said I don't think the manufacturer would guarantee anything with 100 degree water on plastic. 
cheers


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## QldKev (19/8/13)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> What I was getting at is you may have actually released more plastic tastes by heating to near boiling temps.
> I am sure HDPE has a heat range that designates it as food grade.
> Nev


This would have an impact on all the no-chill brewers too.


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## GalBrew (19/8/13)

QldKev said:


> This would have an impact on all the no-chill brewers too.


Indeed it would. I am pumping wort around 90oC into my HDPE cubes. I have never noticed any plastic off-flavours, but then again all my brews have gone into a cube so I have nothing to compare to.


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## Mizz (19/8/13)

QldKev said:


> This would have an impact on all the no-chill brewers too.


You might be right. I have noticed though with a 2 stage rinse of near boiling 90ish degree water that the plastic smell of a new fermenter decreases dramatically. I should have been more clear in my original post about that. Not boiling just above 90.


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## Spiesy (19/8/13)

Was any cleaning done with sodium percarbonate, etc?

Or just boiling water?


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## QldKev (19/8/13)

I should add I've been no chilling since 09 and have never tasted plastic from my cubes after the initial soak in di-san/napi-san.


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## spryzie (19/8/13)

I've also not noticed and I no chill immediately at end of boil - 98 degrees I'd guess.

HDPE is meant to be food safe to over 100 degrees.

I've rinsed mine with boiling water many times though.


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## Blitzer (19/8/13)

After a few drinks (normally 4-6 bottles) from the liquid that comes out of my HDPE container I also notice a headache, though normally it comes the next morning.


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## sponge (20/8/13)

Must be all the botulism.


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