# NEIPA do's and don'ts



## HazyNick (25/8/20)

Hi all

It's been a while since I posted a query, everyone has been very helpful.

My 2nd brew, Pirate Life IIPA was fabulous, 3rd brew Six Strings dark red IPA will be tasted this weekend. I have currently got a NEIPA brewing and I have had some conflicting advice versus the recipe. I am not too fussed about having conflicting advice however I thought I would throw this to the forum to get some feedback;

Airlock or Hydrometer? In relation to dry hopping, should I do this when the airlock stops bubbling (recipe says so and suggested this would be 7 days) or when the hydrometer reading is down to 1.015 (started at 1.045 which the recipe I have says should be the OG (between this and 1.055). Currently my hydrometer reading is 1.020 after 9 days (my two previous brews have fermented for 26 days at between 18-20 celsius to get down to 1.015
Dry Hopping - Citra and Mosaic. 4-5 days before bottling (recipe) or 48 hours (advice)?
Cold Crashing for 24 hours prior to bottling - This I am a bit wary of. Happy to give it a go, advice not recipe, and I can get the brew down to 2 degrees celsius outside thanks to the Blue Mountains climate, probably for about 10 -12 hours. My query is;
Does it have to be around 1-4 degrees for the entire 24 hours
if it was to vary between 2-8 degrees would that still work? - thinking of wrapping some ice packs around it from 7am and putting it in the shed (ambient temp of about 10 degrees
Does it affect the beer flavour or is it purely a vanity exercise to make the beer look good?

Easy to read hydrometers, any ideas? I find it difficult to read the one I have.
Sorry for all the questions however I know some of you have a lot more experience than I do on this so appreciate any guidance.

Cheers
Nick.


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## kadmium (25/8/20)

HazyNick said:


> Hi all
> 
> It's been a while since I posted a query, everyone has been very helpful.
> 
> ...


Hey mate, and welcome to the forums!

1. I don't do either of those... naughty naughty me. I usually dry hop during peak fermentation. However, when I used to gravity ferment (I pressure ferment) I would work backwards and add them about 3 days prior to packaging. So, if you know you're at FG, there is no risk waiting a few extra days / week(s). Work out when you're going to bottle, and add them 3 days before. Do not include the cold crashing in this. For example, I want to package Sunday, I will start cold crash Friday night, so Tuesday morning I will add hops. That leaves Tuesday-Friday for dry hopping (around 3 days), Friday night through to Sunday morning to crash and then package on Sunday.

2. Covered this above, didn't read very well haha

3. Cold Crashing is not really a vanity thing, although it does help with clearer beer. However, I cold crash a NEIPA, and a good NEIPA should not clear up during a cold crash. It's like how some people don't add Whirfloc with NEIPAs cause they think it won't go hazy. That's just misunderstanding what Whirfloc and Cold Crashing do. 

The real purpose of a Cold Crash is to ensure a 'cold break' which will drop out long chain proteins, suspended yeast and, most importantly hop materials. It will help the yeast floculate with all the hop materials etc into a more compact 'cake' on the bottom of the fermenter rather then a loose, easily disturbed bed. This is important for highly hopped beers that you bottle, as you want to keep that out of the bottles to help avoid gushers.

4. I don't use a Hydrometer I use a Refractometer. Witch craft to some, and too 'high tech' but I get the same reading on my $30 Ebay Refractometer that I do on a hydrometer so who gives a ****. I'm not in for super accuracy. Some people will tell you once alcohol is introduced a refractometer is useless, but they just either don't understand how it works, or are just repeating what they heard. I can go more indepth on a refractometer if you want, but this isn't the thread for it.


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## HazyNick (28/8/20)

great thanks for that. Ill work on the 3 x 3 scenario and see how it goes. I'll use ice packs during the day to keep the temperature down, looks like I will be needing a fridge when the temperature starts getting warmer.


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## kadmium (28/8/20)

A fermenting fridge is one of the biggest steps you can take to consistently good beer. Highly recommend!


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## philrob (28/8/20)

My advice on Neipa's is "don't".
I can't see the point in slavishly following every new USA fashion.
I prefer to drink beer, not cloudy hop juice.


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## kadmium (29/8/20)

philrob said:


> My advice on Neipa's is "don't".
> I can't see the point in slavishly following every new USA fashion.
> I prefer to drink beer, not cloudy hop juice.


Same advice that was given for BIAB, No Chill, Cold Sparge and other things. 

I am all for new things. And what's wrong with hop juice? There's more to life than one light, piss coloured beer that tastes like the next. And traditional IPAs taste like licking a coin I found in the pocket of the shit I wore to the last wedding I went to. 

So give me juicy hop water any day.


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## Grmblz (29/8/20)

philrob said:


> My advice on Neipa's is "don't".
> I can't see the point in slavishly following every new USA fashion.
> I prefer to drink beer, not cloudy hop juice.


HazyNick was asking for guidance on a style he obviously enjoys "don't" isn't particularly constructive.
I would agree about slavishly following new fashions, be they US, UK, or anywhere else for that matter, but having said that, I like variety and brew some experimental/latest craze/weird shit at times just for giggles and every now and then find a keeper.
We can't knock a style/process we personally don't like, and in the same breath extol the virtues of craft brewing.
Just my two bobs worth.


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## butisitart (29/8/20)

at my age, if you know what strain of yeast you put into your beer, you're a slave to fashion.


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## philrob (29/8/20)

Ah, I just love the flaming you get every time you post something sensible.
The asbestos brewing jacket has saved the day for me.

Still, if you wish to drink something that's not really beer, then go right ahead, but after all, it's still not really beer. All things out of the USA are not really the bees knees, just look at Trump, and their gun laws.

We had a NEIPA night at my brew club last year. Didn't like a single one of them. I'm not arguing the technical merits of making something like that, just that it isn't really beer as it should be. VB is also a brilliant technical achievement, but it's still crap.

Don't talk about age, I have plenty of that on board. And I'm old enough to have got over the craze for following fashion and the narcicistic trend of tattoos and gym junkism.

There, I've said it.

OK girls and boys, do your worst. I'm ready for ya.


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## Vic (29/8/20)

The asbestos brewing jacket. Where can I get one !!!???. Home brewing is brewing and LEARNING how to brew what you like. Asking for guidance is OK, guidence from someone who does not like that style and say's "don't" makes no sense. Do it and learn from your experience and hopefully enjoy delicious beer.


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## kadmium (29/8/20)

philrob said:


> Ah, I just love the flaming you get every time you post something sensible.
> The asbestos brewing jacket has saved the day for me.
> 
> Still, if you wish to drink something that's not really beer, the go right ahead, but after all, it's still not really beer. All things out of the USA are not really the bees knees, just look at Trump, and their gun laws.
> ...


It's not the fact you don't like NEIPA. It's the fact you took time to go into a post from a new brewer asking for advice on a style of beer (as recognised by BJCP so get fucked with what YOU think is beer) and tell them not to brew it. 

Based on what? Your tastes? Why do tattoos and narcissistic tendencies and Trump have to be introduced into a thread asking for help?

So you don't like america. Congratulations take a ticket and get in line. I guess you don't like space exploration, medical research, industry, manufacturing, globalised trade, the armed forces, electric cars, the internet, computers, electricity, mobile phones, streaming or even the forums you're happy so spout your opinion on. 

News flash Tutankhamen, these are all relatively new concepts in the history of man. 

Sure, if the bloke asked "what's your opinion on NEIPAs" go right ahead and tell everyone. But he didn't. He asked for technical help related to brewing a specific style of beer that HE enjoys. 

I don't go on ford forums and tell people not to flush their radiators just because I don't like fords. Jesus ******* christ, this forum is had enough with Keg King and Keg Land derailing threads with their bullshit, don't need it from other people who should know better. 

There is nothing, in my view more sad than someone who shits on another person's passions just because they don't like them. 

As I stated before, its not that you don't like NEIPA. That's more than understandable. It's your completely unhelpful comment from a new brewer looking for advice.


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## Grmblz (29/8/20)

@philrob ^what he said^ but he forgot to say "pull yer head in" trump, guns, gyms, tattoos, "not really beer as it should be"wtf? You and Rodney must be related (or the same account) Your comment wasn't "sensible" it was a tosser espousing his own values with no regard for the OP, opinions my friend are like arseholes, we've all got them, but you shouldn't go around sticking them in other peoples faces. If someone asks for help then either help or shut the f**k up. There, I've said it LMAO!
@HazyNick sorry mate none of this is related to you or your querie, please keep the questions coming, the few may be vocal but the many are watching and I'd be amazed if you asked a question and didn't get a half way reasonable answer. Cheers G


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## CaptainMachSnot (29/8/20)

kadmium said:


> And traditional IPAs taste like licking a coin I found in the pocket of the *shit* I wore to the last wedding I went to.


Hahaha, couldn't help but laugh at this. That sounds like a new trend that i definatly think should be shut down - wearing a shit to a wedding.

I also think i like neipa's (too bloody dear, so have only tried one), and also dislike ipa's.


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## kadmium (29/8/20)

CaptainMachSnot said:


> Hahaha, couldn't help but laugh at this. That sounds like a new trend that i definatly think should be shut down - wearing a shit to a wedding.
> 
> I also think i like neipa's (too bloody dear, so have only tried one), and also dislike ipa's.


Oh God hahaha. Supposed to say suit. Although by the end of the night it's probably half vomit anyway hahaha


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## butisitart (29/8/20)

kadmium said:


> Oh God hahaha. Supposed to say suit. Although by the end of the night it's probably half vomit anyway hahaha


i read it literally - i wore shit to a wedding (in which there was a pocket, somewhere)


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## Grmblz (29/8/20)

^ Me too^ then I felt embarrassed by the Captains comment, so happy I wasn't the only one.


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## Grmblz (29/8/20)

kadmium said:


> this forum is had enough with Keg King and Keg Land derailing threads with their bullshit,


Errrmmmm just reread your post and given the faux par re: shit suits thought I would seek some guidance re: the above comment. 
Is it "this forum has had enough" or "this forum is bad enough" fwiw I agree with both propositions.


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## butisitart (29/8/20)

Grmblz said:


> Errrmmmm just reread your post and given the faux par re: shit suits thought I would seek some guidance re: the above comment.
> Is it "this forum has had enough" or "this forum is bad enough" fwiw I agree with both propositions.


i think he means 'this forum is sad enough.'
and 'kegling and canned leg'
so,
_this forum is sad enough with canned legs and keglings derailing threads with their bull suits, _
if you don't understand this, you clearly haven't ingested enough neipa
it's saturday night and we're all bored. let's jump on kadmium


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## philrob (29/8/20)

Lighten up princesses, where's your sense of humour? 
There's room for a little levity, surely.

Anyway, it's stirred some life into this place.

I love youse all. Good night, over and out.


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## butisitart (29/8/20)

philrob said:


> Lighten up princesses, where's your sense of humour?
> There's room for a little levity, surely.
> 
> Anyway, it's stirred some life into this place.
> ...


you're not that old, relatively speaking


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## Grmblz (29/8/20)

philrob said:


> Lighten up princesses, where's your sense of humour?
> There's room for a little levity, surely.
> 
> Anyway, it's stirred some life into this place.
> ...


Lightweight, calling it a night??? Yawn!!! Oh dear, maybe I should have stuck to the red.


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## kadmium (29/8/20)

Hah. Too many NEIPAs I mean waters seeing it's not beer to some. 

Hey, English is my first language. Cut me some slack. Oh wait.


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## Grmblz (29/8/20)




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## hoppy2B (30/8/20)

HazyNick said:


> Hi all
> 
> It's been a while since I posted a query, everyone has been very helpful.
> 
> ...


NEIPA will be hazy due to high level of hop oils. Cold crashing wouldn't change that. Cold crashed beers have a cleaner taste to me, less of the rank leafyness pellets seem to impart on account of the very fine particles. 

I grow my own hops and I don't cold crash, but I don't dry hop either. Nowadays I brew with mostly raw wheat that I grow and a small percentage of ale malt, I don't boil (apart from a small side boil for bittering) and I don't chill. I simply bring the wort up to 70 degrees Celsius to pasteurise it, and drop the flavour hops in then or after it has cooled a couple of degrees. Made some nice beers that way. 

Moral of the story is, do what works for you. Doesn't need to be elaborate. I do plan to dry hop in future but am developing a method of removing the lupulin from the cones first.


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## HazyNick (1/9/20)

Hey all appreciate all the comments. I do have a sense of humour and understand that everyone has their opinions and preferences on beer choices. Just for the record I love IPA, however have never licked a coin. I am thankful for all of you who responded with with some sage advice and feedback and I hope that I can let you know how great my beer turns out. I will say that I have managed to weed out the non constructive advice, so please don't think I'm taking everything to heart. Good luck with getting your suit dry-cleaned. Cheers


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## butisitart (1/9/20)

HazyNick said:


> Hey all appreciate all the comments. I do have a sense of humour and understand that everyone has their opinions and preferences on beer choices. Just for the record I love IPA, however have never licked a coin. I am thankful for all of you who responded with with some sage advice and feedback and I hope that I can let you know how great my beer turns out. I will say that I have managed to weed out the non constructive advice, so please don't think I'm taking everything to heart. Good luck with getting your suit dry-cleaned. Cheers


most of us don't lick coins. he suffers a mineral deficiency, you know, like when you're looking for salt so you go and buy some chips.
even i, who has great taste in beer, hope your neipa turns out


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## goatchop41 (2/9/20)

hoppy2B said:


> NEIPA will be hazy due to high level of hop oils


At the risk of being pedantic (I don't think that pointing this out is, but some will), that's actually not correct (well, probably not correct).
The haze is most likely from a reaction between polyphenols (from both the hops and malt) and protein from the malt/adjuncts.

This discusses it.
Janish's book 'The New IPA' is a great read on all of this stuff. @HazyNick I would suggest that you get your hands on a copy and have a read, it's worth every cent!


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## hoppy2B (2/9/20)

goatchop41 said:


> At the risk of being pedantic (I don't think that pointing this out is, but some will), that's actually not correct (well, probably not correct).
> The haze is most likely from a reaction between polyphenols (from both the hops and malt) and protein from the malt/adjuncts.
> 
> This discusses it.
> Janish's book 'The New IPA' is a great read on all of this stuff. @HazyNick I would suggest that you get your hands on a copy and have a read, it's worth every cent!



Thanks for pointing that out. I predicated my statement on the fact I had read other people suggest it and it seemed about right. I doubt one would get the same sort of haze if using a large amount of hops and boiling the bejesus out of them. It's only natural to assume it is the result of hop oils.


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## Brewman_ (2/9/20)

NEIPA's aren't my cup of tea.

However, I like things others don't and vice-versa. That's one of the good things about home brewing - make what you like and sure push some boundaries. 

Lots of Brewman customers make these and I have worked with some very good brewers - Home brewers and Professionals on how to make these beers. There are some recipes on Brewbuilder as a reference.

Here are my Do's and Don'ts

Do
Keep the bitterness low
Keep O2 exposure as low as you possibly can
Use very wisely the type of hops you use in the kettle. Some are smooth, others can be harsh.
Drink them early as you can.
Use flaked wheat and Oats.

Don'ts
Choose the kettle hops for fruitiness without harsh side effects. I would be careful with Galaxy any earlier than whirlpool hops.
Don't let them mature. carbonate and drink with your mates

Cheers
Steve


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## goatchop41 (3/9/20)

Brewman_ said:


> Use flaked wheat and Oats


Have you had customers/other brewers who have noticed a difference between flaked wheat and just plain wheat malt?


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## GalBrew (3/9/20)

Brewman_ said:


> I would be careful with Galaxy any earlier than whirlpool hops.



This is good advice in general.


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## hoppy2B (3/9/20)

It's been said before and I hold the same view. "Why would anyone set out to make a cloudy brew by adding certain grain additions?" NEIPA is cloudy because of the large addition of late/dry hops. If you're not getting a cloudy brew from adding lots of hops, and trying to compensate by adding various grains, then you're doing it wrong. 

I have also read, and I agree, that mouthfeel is softened, and head retention improved, by the addition of hops.

Moral of the story is: Don't be stingy with the hops when making NEIPA. Grain bill is less important. And who cares about why it's cloudy. It's all about using lots of hops.


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## goatchop41 (3/9/20)

hoppy2B said:


> It's been said before and I hold the same view. "Why would anyone set out to make a cloudy brew by adding certain grain additions?" NEIPA is cloudy because of the large addition of late/dry hops. If you're not getting a cloudy brew from adding lots of hops, and trying to compensate by adding various grains, then you're doing it wrong.


Well, no. In my opinion, I would say that you are the one who is wrong. Grain bill is important, because as I mentioned above, proteins are most likely an important part of the haze, as well as contributing to mouthfeel and head formation/retention.
Yes, you can make a hazy beer without higher protein adjuncts, but the extra proteins will likely help to form a more permanent and more opaque haze. It's not about compensating by adding to the grain bill, the grain bill is an important part full stop



hoppy2B said:


> I have also read, and I agree, that mouthfeel is softened


Yes, a little might come from the hops, but grain bill and water chemistry will play a much bigger part.


NEIPAs aren't just about throwing a shit ton of hops at a beer. They're about getting the correct grain bill, water chemistry and yeast first, then throwing a shit ton of hops at it.


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## hoppy2B (3/9/20)

goatchop41 said:


> Well, no. In my opinion, I would say that you are the one who is wrong. Grain bill is important, because as I mentioned above, proteins are most likely an important part of the haze, as well as contributing to mouthfeel and head formation/retention.
> Yes, you can make a hazy beer without higher protein adjuncts, but the extra proteins will likely help to form a more permanent and more opaque haze. It's not about compensating by adding to the grain bill, the grain bill is an important part full stop
> 
> 
> ...



Well if you want to focus on all the factors let's not forget about choosing a suitable yeast. 1318 is a good one.

One could make a NEIPA with a single malt. As far as I am concerned, grain bill is largely irrelevant. The point of NEIPA is adding lots of hops is to achieve a huge fruity hoppy brew. It's not to try and brew something cloudy.

I was making NEIPA before the term was even invented. It isn't something I set out to copy, nor am I trying to make a cloudy brew, I'm simply trying to get as many late hops into my beer as possible.


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## kadmium (3/9/20)

hoppy2B said:


> Well if you want to focus on all the factors let's not forget about choosing a suitable yeast. 1318 is a good one.
> 
> One could make a NEIPA with a single malt. As far as I am concerned, grain bill is largely irrelevant. The point of NEIPA is adding lots of hops is to achieve a huge fruity hoppy brew. It's not to try and brew something cloudy.
> 
> I was making NEIPA before the term was even invented. It isn't something I set out to copy, nor am I trying to make a cloudy brew, I'm simply trying to get as many late hops into my beer as possible.


Then you're not brewing a NEIPA. Try calling it a West Coast IPA or something else. A NEIPA is known as being hazy, juicy and containing oats and wheat with a specific chloride to sulfate ratio. 

Why try and take credit for something, by saying you have been brewing these before they came fashionable right after admitting you don't even know what they are.


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## goatchop41 (4/9/20)

hoppy2B said:


> One could make a NEIPA with a single malt. As far as I am concerned, grain bill is largely irrelevant


And as I've pointed out above, you would be wrong. It's not irrelevant, as you need high protein malts/adjuncts to help form the permahaze.
Yes, you're right in that you could make a NEIPA with a single malt, but you could also say that about many other beers as well. Most importantly, just because you can do that, it doesn't mean that you should, nor does it mean that it would actually make a great example of the style/beer. It might be ok, but a great NEIPA needs wheat/oats/etc.



hoppy2B said:


> Well if you want to focus on all the factors let's not forget about choosing a suitable yeast.


Yes, I did mention that.



hoppy2B said:


> The point of NEIPA is adding lots of hops is to achieve a huge fruity hoppy brew. It's not to try and brew something cloudy


Again, you're incorrect. A NEIPA is inherently hazy, that's one of the defining characteristics.
BJCP style guidelines: "Color ranges from straw to yellow, sometimes with an orange hue. Hazy, often opaque, clarity; should not be cloudy or murky. The opacity can add a ‘shine’ to the beer and make the color seem darker"



hoppy2B said:


> I was making NEIPA before the term was even invented. It isn't something I set out to copy, nor am I trying to make a cloudy brew, I'm simply trying to get as many late hops into my beer as possible.


Kadmium is right, you seem to be trying to claim that you were making something that you don't quite understand properly. NEIPAs are a combination of haze, mouthfeel, low bitterness AND hops.
Your insistence that hops are the only thing that matters in a NEIPA demonstrates that you don't fully comprehend the style of beer itself. Yes, you might be making a very hoppy IPA with low bitterness, but just throwing a ton of hops at a beer doesn't make it a NEIPA.

Unfortunately this seems to be a misunderstanding that you and a lot of Aussie craft breweries share. There are too many of them who just throw tons of new world hops at a beer and call it a NEIPA, despite it not having much haze to speak of, thin-ish body and lack of a soft mouthfeel


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## kadmium (4/9/20)

goatchop41 said:


> And as I've pointed out above, you would be wrong. It's not irrelevant, as you need high protein malts/adjuncts to help form the permahaze.
> Yes, you're right in that you could make a NEIPA with a single malt, but you could also say that about many other beers as well. Most importantly, just because you can do that, it doesn't mean that you should, nor does it mean that it would actually make a great example of the style/beer. It might be ok, but a great NEIPA needs wheat/oats/etc.
> 
> 
> ...


And don't get me started on them adding lactose. But hey, I make my stouts with nothing but pilsner malt and roast barley. It's jet black so it must be a stout. Also, I was doing it before Guiness made it popular.


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## wide eyed and legless (4/9/20)

*Neil Fisher, Co-Founder & Head Brewer of WeldWerks in Greeley, Colorado*





For most of our New England-style IPAs our water profile targets are around 175–200 ppm chloride, 75–100 ppm sulfate, and less than 150 ppm calcium. Depending on your base ion profile, strictly using calcium chloride and calcium sulfate to achieve those targets can result in too high a concentration of calcium, which may affect yeast behavior, specifically flocculation, so consider magnesium sulfate as an alternative for your sulfate additions.

We use a fair amount of flaked wheat and flaked oats in a lot of our IPAs, mainly for their contributions to the mouthfeel and body of the beer. But we’ve found that more than 15% of flaked wheat or flaked oats can lend a bit more sharp “starchiness” to the beer, and if the grist exceeds more than 20% high-protein grains, it can be difficult to maintain colloidal stability. 

We utilize a very small (5–8 IBUs) first wort hop addition in nearly every beer we brew, mostly to give us a softer baseline bitterness to build from and to help combat boil-overs in the kettle. But beyond that, all of our other hop additions for NEIPAs take place in the whirlpool. We typically stagger our whirlpool additions over 20–30 minutes, just to bring out more complexity and unique expressions from the hops given the varying time and temperature of those additions. For homebrewers, simplifying it to a larger flameout addition or even utilizing a hop stand would likely produce similar results. We are always trying to find the perfect balance between hop flavor, hop aroma, and hop bitterness, so diversifying the whirlpool schedule has worked well for us.

When it comes to dry hopping, we’ve found leaving the hops in contact 8 or 9 days to be the sweet spot for most of our beers, but we’ve had great results with as few as 5 days. As for total hop loads, one of our most popular beers, Extra Extra Juicy Bits, is dry hopped at nearly 10 lbs./bbl (5 oz. per gallon/37 grams per L) and it’s a surprisingly balanced and drinkable beer despite the extreme dry hop rate. But extended cold conditioning times are a must for heavily dry hopped beers, otherwise hop burn becomes a real issue.

When selecting hops for this style, I think Citra®, Mosaic®, and El Dorado® is a tough combination to beat (Juicy Bits is 1:1:1 of each). When we go to Yakima every year for hop selection and harvest, we’re specifically looking for the complex citrus and tropical fruit expressions of those specific varietals. Our Citra® lots are usually characterized by ripe tangerine and Valencia orange juice, while our Mosaic® lot is a pineapple bomb, and our El Dorado® selection is a tropical fruit medley of candied mango, passion fruit, and papaya.

We use London Ale III almost exclusively for IPAs because we’ve found it’s been the most reliable and consistent in terms of ester production, attenuation, and flocculation. We slightly underpitch so that the added stress promotes ester development, but we also want a somewhat clean, healthy fermentation to ensure proper attenuation and to avoid any phenolics. London Ale III fermented with the right conditions throws delicate stone fruit esters, which are a perfect complement to the citrus and tropical fruit character from most of our hops. Our fermentations stay steady in the 66–69 °F (19–21 °C) range for most IPAs, which has worked well for our fermentation and the start of dry hopping. Oxygen is probably the single most influential factor in brewing New England-style IPAs, so finding ways to keep dissolved oxygen as low as possible would improve your beer more than the quality of your ingredients, equipment, or ANYTHING else that goes into brewing. Every system and setup is different, but purging with CO2 is a must when racking, packaging, and you could even try blanketing with CO2 while dry hopping to minimize the oxygen pick-up

Its worth subscribing to BYO online, lots of useful information, not into this style but a number of Pro brewers give their advice, this is from one of them


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## Fro-Daddy (4/9/20)

37g/L!? Madness.


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## GalBrew (4/9/20)

Fro-Daddy said:


> 37g/L!? Madness.


That is a bit over the top. There would be a lot of wastage with this, considering you are getting diminishing returns over 8g/l according to research by Tom Shellhammer.


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## wide eyed and legless (4/9/20)

*Jean-Claude Tetreault, Co-Founder of Trillium Brewing in Massachusetts*





We are lucky to have relatively low mineral content water in our local watershed, which allows us to dial in the total mineral content. Our chloride and sulfates ratio to roughly 2:1, but maintain low levels of total dissolved solids and sufficient calcium for yeast health.

Our recipe design process has changed over the years. Our earliest hoppy beers contained very little unmalted or flaked grain. Since early days, we have explored this quite a bit and we have found great success with them primarily in higher gravity beers. We also lean on lots of other ways to enhance body and mouthfeel, such as through the mash schedule and temperatures. We also used to have approximate 30% of our total hop charges go in hot-side, but now we are closer to 90–95% on the cold-side. Given the massive hop bills in these beers and measured IBUs and perceived bitterness impact from dry hop charges paired with disproportionately high aroma and flavor impact from cold-side additions, we shifted these additions to the dry hop over the years.

We tend to get these dry hop additions in at the tail end of fermentation to ensure the best balance of being able to harvest healthy yeast and getting intense and reliable bioconversion of flavor and aromatic compounds. We have a sliding scale of maximum dry hop charges based on gravity . . . but we’ve got well over 10 lbs./bbl (5 oz. per gallon/37 grams per L) on some triple and quadruple IPAs and we definitely see a commensurate impact of intensity of character.

GalaxyTM, Citra®, and Mosaic® are the far and away favorite hop varieties for now. There are some (i.e. Sabro® and Strata®) that are distinctively unique and have both the quality and intensity that we value. There are also incredible new experimental varieties in the pipeline that will stand shoulder to shoulder or even exceed the current favorites.

When it comes to yeast there are many strains from different yeast houses that can provide varying levels of bioconversion, clarity of hop strain, and reliability. We’ve explored the vast majority of them and there is no perfect option, so we will use different strains for different beers to achieve the desired impact. Given the range, start with the recommendation from experienced homebrewers in your club or internet forum and go from there. I wouldn’t recommend underpitching, so I’d say to closely follow the pitching rates based on gravity. We stick to the range of fermentation temperatures the lab recommends and sometimes will ramp up the tail end if necessary for a higher gravity beer.

Oxidation is probably the #1 killer for homebrewed NEIPAs! I’d be hard pressed to recommend someone attempt the style if they don’t have a kegging setup as oxidation will quickly destroy these beers and you’ll end up disappointed. Fully CO2 purging vessels (or filling with sanitizer/water and pushing out with CO2) will ensure acceptable oxygen levels. None of that matters though if you can’t keep these beers cold post dry hop. We’ve done some extensive accelerated aging tests with our quality team that shows that warmer temperatures are markedly more detrimental than oxygen levels just above the specification on our packaging quality parameters than if they were stored cold

*Dave Bombard, Co-Founder and Brewer of Green Empire Brewing in Colchester, Vermont*




On most of our hoppy beers, we tend to favor a water profile that falls in the 0.6–0.8 SO4/Cl range. To achieve this, we usually use gypsum (CaSO4) and a house-made CaCl2 solution but we pay close attention to calcium (keeping levels under 110 ppm) to maintain softness on the profile. While I don’t think general water chemistry will overall make or break a beer, it is one of those elements that when dialed in, can turn a good beer into a great beer. 

We love using flaked oats, flaked barley, and flaked wheat in many of our IPAs. We find they are all great for increasing our head retention and creating nice creamy character that we find desirable in most of our beers. The biggest drawback of these, especially in larger amounts, is lautering ability. We’ve definitely stuck a few sparges when exceeding 20% of these flaked additions in our mash, but using rice hulls can make these sparges go much smoother. 

We go back and forth on boil vs. post-boil hop additions depending on the beer. While we love a lot of these low-IBU NEIPAs and do make a few of them, we often prefer a degree of balanced bitterness. Most of our hoppy beers tend to fall in the 50–80 IBU range, which seems higher than a lot of other NEIPAs nowadays. We do employ a lot of heavy whirlpool hop additions, but we are fans of kettle hopping. For every beer we make, we utilize hop additions at the beginning of our boil to create a foundation of bitterness that we enjoy in our beer. We also often add small additions in the last 5–20 minutes of our boil to help layer the complexity of the hop flavors, and to achieve higher levels of bitterness than we could achieve from whirlpool hopping alone. 

The majority of our hop additions are added in the fermenter. We’ve experimented with quite a range from 1 lb./bbl to 7.5 lbs./bbl (0.5.–3.75 oz. per gallon/3.7–28 g per L) of total dry hop additions. We often add dry hops during the tail end of primary fermentation, and again at fermentation temperatures after fermentation completes to minimize some of the more vegetal flavors that can come from adding hops at lower temperatures. We have also experimented with varied methods of dry hop contact ranging from pouring in the top of our fermenter and resting for a few days, to recirculating hops. At this time, we really enjoy a “continual rousing” method, as pumps seem vulnerable to loose seals and the risk of picking up oxygen during recirculation terrifies me. When we dry hop, we will add hops through the top of our fermenter, then over 2–3 days we will usually rouse the tank with CO2 directly through our racking arm several times a day to ensure as much contact with the liquid as possible. 

I find dry hopping rates to be ABV-dependent. For instance, if brewing a 4–5% session beer, we have definitely found that “double dry hopping” or even dry hopping over 3 lbs./bbl (1.5 oz. per gallon/11 g per L) can lend to really undesirable green and vegetal flavors that are extremely difficult to tame even after extended conditioning time in the tank. With that being said, we’ve gone as high as 7.5 lbs./bbl (3.75 oz. per gallon/28 g per L) on batches of double IPA with extremely pleasing results. At the end of the day, it really depends on the beer you have in the tank. As a rule, we never try to rush our beer to fit a schedule. We are always happy to let a beer crash out in a tank a few extra days to let it reach prime drinkability when packaged. 

Generally speaking, we favor hops that fall into the tropical fruit spectrum with bits of dankness and pine included. We try to avoid lots and varietals that fall more into the realm of deep earthy, spicy, oniony characteristics, although occasionally we do desire some of these notes in the balance. We also really enjoy using Cryo® hops on the hot- and cold-side due to the decreased plant matter. Also, we usually favor looser packed T-90 pellets vs. the tighter packed pellets as we find them to disperse more effectively into our beer during whirlpool and dry hopping. In regards to hop combinations, you’d have to be crazy to not love Citra®, Mosaic®, Simcoe®, etc. but we’ve really grown in love with Sabro®, El Dorado®, Strata®, and Idaho 7® specifically over the last year. We’ve also really enjoyed a number of the Southern Hemisphere varietals we’ve gotten our hands on, Motueka being an absolute favorite.

Don’t be afraid to play around with different hops, and don’t get caught up in idea of bittering vs. aroma hops. Everyone loves to use Citra®, GalaxyTM, and Mosaic®. But don’t limit yourself to these. There are a growing number of varietals, including experimentals available to homebrewers. Embrace this, and don’t be afraid to use them where you think they will best be expressed in your finished beer.

In my opinion, yeast is one of the major drivers that make the style what it is. We’ve used several strains in our IPAs, but you can never go wrong with Wyeast 1318 (London Ale III), or any of the other mirrored strains from other suppliers. I enjoy the fact that these strains have the perfect level of attenuation for the style, leaving behind just the right touch of sweetness. Often times we will also blend in some more traditional American ale strains for increased attenuation. We always raise our fermentation temperature from 69 °F (20.5 °C) to 71–72 °F (22 °C) after day three to minimize diacetyl.

I’ve debated this with brewer friends, but I’m also convinced that strain selection is a major contributor in the visual intrigue (haze) that people tend to gravitate toward in today’s IPA. We’ve definitely noticed that strains can express themselves differently and make varied contributions to how the end product appears in the glass. To test this, we’ve taken the same beer, pitched different strains of “IPA branded” yeast, and have noticed very different expressions of flavors, aromas, mouthfeel, and visual appearances. At the end of the day, I don’t believe hazy beer necessarily equals great beer by any means. I think its way more important to find a strain, or handful of strains, that will provide the expressions in the finished product that you, as the brewer, ultimately desire. Another suggestion for homebrewers is to always make a starter. As a homebrewer, pitches can often be stored in a variety of conditions and have some age behind them. Creating a starter prior to brewing really ensures that you will have the cell count and viability needed for a nice healthy fermentation. Wort oxygenation is huge in yeast health also. While harmful post-fermentation, adding oxygen pre-pitching is hugely important for fermentation and allowing the yeast to express itself properly in the finished beer! 

As a former homebrewer, minimizing oxygen was my biggest weakness, and a major headache. I believe the biggest influx of oxygen for homebrewers is when transferring to a keg from the fermenter for force carbonation. Finding a way to devise a closed transfer is the best way to resolve this issue and maximize stability. For instance, before we were Green Empire, my partner and I used to ferment in 15.5-gallon (59-L) stainless steel sanke kegs. We eventually were able to devise a custom cap that we could attach to the opening of the keg via tri-clamp, and would allow us to siphon out of the keg into the “beer out” port on smaller pre-purged 5-gallon (19-L) Corny kegs via CO2 transfer. This was huge for creating longer stability for our brews, and as one friend called it, making them taste “less homebrewy.” I’m sure with some craftiness you could even devise a similar setup through the cover of a 6-gallon (23-L) pale. Prior to this, we were siphoning through the top opening of the Corny kegs, and as the weeks went on, we’d notice gradual development of off-flavors and discoloration. After tightening up this process, small things like purging the CO2 hose prior to connecting it for force carbonation, and purging growlers/kegs/bottles before filling them with beer are steps that can be easily forgotten but can be problematic for stability in homebrewed beer


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## kadmium (4/9/20)

Fro-Daddy said:


> 37g/L!? Madness.


Don't let @butisitart see, I think he's used a total of 37g of hops in all his beers combined!


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## goatchop41 (4/9/20)

GalBrew said:


> That is a bit over the top. There would be a lot of wastage with this, considering you are getting diminishing returns over 8g/l according to research by Tom Shellhammer.


I wouldn't be hanging any hats on that data - or more specifically, I wouldn't be over-generalising the results of it.

A) It was performed with whole hops cones;
B) It was performed with just cascade;
C) The dry hop was 24 hours;
D) the grain bill was a 'base pale ale' below 5%

So, we have no idea if the results of dry hopping at rates above or below 8g/l will be different in our own beers if we were to:
- use pellet hops or cryo hops;
- use a variety other than cascade;
- dry hop for longer than 24 hours;
- dry hop a beer that is a high ABV, or has a different grain bill (more protein, etc).

We can also dispute the generalisability of that research by simply looking at dry hopping in commercial practice - many breweries are absolutely knocking beers out of the park with massive dry hops (>30g/L), and that these beers are clearly very different in terms of hop character/flavour/aroma to lower hopped beers, despite the fact that this research claims that it shouldn't make a positive difference (according to my interpretation of the research, it should make the aroma more herbal/tea-like)


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## Ferg (4/9/20)

Some good info here too: Verdant IPA Yeast - Home Brewing Competition

I agree, I think 8g/L is not really the correct number. I believe the breweries that are doing that these style of beers now have that number closer to 25g/L for IPAs. Put a beer dry hopped at 8g/l beside one at 25g/l and see if you can tell the difference. The higher the alcohol, the higher the hopping rate it can take too.

Some of the things I have had success with:

No mid ferment dry hop
D-rest towards the end of fermentation
Soft crash to 14 degrees (less chance of hop creep & more diacetyl)
Remove yeast
Dry hop usually around 16g/l for a 6.5% beer
Malted oats
Fully purged kegs (fill to the brim with sanitiser and push our with C02)
Dry hopping for 3 days total with a bit of agitation
low mash ph ~ 5.2 & boil ph ~ 5.0
keeping calcium levels lower by using sodium chloride (kosher salt) ~ 50ppm
splitting the salts so some go in the boil
Good luck!


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## butisitart (4/9/20)

kadmium said:


> Don't let @butisitart see, I think he's used a total of 37g of hops in all his beers combined!


i bought a kilo of dr rudi when i first started brewing and i'm down to the last 340gms. i use 2 pellets in a brew, if i want to make hoppy gick for my baby brother i might put 3 pellets in. more than that just wears the hop spider out.


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## Luxo_Aussie (4/9/20)

The guys on the Craft Brewing Channel did a detailed two-part series on creating a NEIPA, can be found here & here with their recipe+method on their site. The reaction on their faces after tasting is just pure joy - they touch on some good ideas to limit oxidation at a homebrewer level with input from the head brewer at Verdant. Can't wait to give this one a crack!


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## butisitart (4/9/20)

Luxo_Aussie said:


> The guys on the Craft Brewing Channel did a detailed two-part series on creating a NEIPA, can be found here & here with their recipe+method on their site. The reaction on their faces after tasting is just pure joy - they touch on some good ideas to limit oxidation at a homebrewer level with input from the head brewer at Verdant. Can't wait to give this one a crack!


dunno if this has done the rounds here, they make it just up the road from you, luxo. you tried it?? (swiss, i think)

um, yep, looks like it did the rounds about 5 years ago


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## Luxo_Aussie (4/9/20)

butisitart said:


> dunno if this has done the rounds here, they make it just up the road from you, luxo. you tried it?? (swiss, i think)
> 
> um, yep, looks like it did the rounds about 5 years ago



I wish, was devastated when I found out this video was an April fools joke.


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## goatchop41 (5/9/20)

Yeah, unfortunately helium doesn't really dissolve in to liquid like CO2 does


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## goatchop41 (5/9/20)

Luxo_Aussie said:


> The guys on the Craft Brewing Channel did a detailed two-part series on creating a NEIPA, can be found here & here with their recipe+method on their site. The reaction on their faces after tasting is just pure joy - they touch on some good ideas to limit oxidation at a homebrewer level with input from the head brewer at Verdant. Can't wait to give this one a crack!


Their grain bill seems unnecessarily complex. It's a bit like they tried to get a bit of everything in there that they've read/been told helps.
Flaked and malted wheat? Wouldn't just one or the other be fine, especially in such a small amount?
What's the role of carapils?
Lastly, why have mostly maris otter, and then chuck some golden promise in? Again, would it really be any different if it was just one or the other? (spoiler alert: it almost certainly wouldn't be).

In my humble opinion, it would probably turn out essentially the same with mostly maris otter, a good whack of rolled oats (as they've done) and some wheat malt to round it out


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## Ferg (6/9/20)

goatchop41 said:


> Their grain bill seems unnecessarily complex. It's a bit like they tried to get a bit of everything in there that they've read/been told helps.
> Flaked and malted wheat? Wouldn't just one or the other be fine, especially in such a small amount?
> What's the role of carapils?
> Lastly, why have mostly maris otter, and then chuck some golden promise in? Again, would it really be any different if it was just one or the other? (spoiler alert: it almost certainly wouldn't be).
> ...


I thought they just copied a Verdant recipe...


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## goatchop41 (6/9/20)

Ferg said:


> I thought they just copied a Verdant recipe...


They don't say that on the web page, but I'm not sure about the videos (I'm not planning on watching them, so hopefully someone else who has can chime in)


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## Brewman_ (15/9/20)

goatchop41 said:


> Have you had customers/other brewers who have noticed a difference between flaked wheat and just plain wheat malt?


Sozz been offline for various reasons.

I have not noticed a difference to be honest between flaked wheat and Malted wheat in terms of customer feedback, ... with the brewbuilder recipes there are tweaks but they never remove the flaked wheat. If you had no flaked wheat, and subb'd malted wheat I think that would be OK. I think the oats flaked are important.

The feedback on the recipes are that they are very good. In fact they are responsible for converting many a beer lover to a beer brewer.

Cheers Steve


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## Luxo_Aussie (4/10/20)

philrob said:


> My advice on Neipa's is "don't".
> I can't see the point in slavishly following every new USA fashion.
> I prefer to drink beer, not cloudy hop juice.


I've got a friend who's trademark comment is "I'll try Anything once"
Guess this can be applied to brewing as well!


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## MHB (4/10/20)

I'm not the biggest fan of the NEPIAS that have come my way, it could be that examples of really good ones don't travel well and I suspect even the best of then aren't very stable. Be nice if we all had a brewery close by making it fresh.
On the Wheat Malt/Flake question.
The main difference between what each brings to the beer is going to be the amount of high molecular weight proteins in the flaked wheat. HMW Proteins combine with Polyphenols to form haze. Starts as chill haze but with a lot in solution it will become permanent haze pretty quickly.
Most of the HMW Proteins are degraded to some extent during malting so if we use malted Wheat there will be less HMW Proteins available for haze formation. This is in addition to the smooth almost creamy texture flaked cereal can produce (mostly Glucans).
Paying a lot of attention during mashing should see good yields from flaked wheat (up to 80%), avoiding low temperature rests, (b-Glucanase and Protease) very patient lautering with mineralised and pH adjusted (perhaps a little higher than normal) sparge water... should see good extraction without harsh husk tannins affecting the flavour.
Mark


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