# Sparge ring



## hooper80 (25/7/16)

Hi blokes, I have a herms system and am trying to better my efficiency. I'm wondering if recirculating through a Sparge ring and sparging through a Sparge ring would be better than the length of silicone hose I am now using which gives me a whirlpool?


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## Mardoo (25/7/16)

You'll get differing opinions on that one. Could be fun to watch. Popcorn anyone?

I've seen plenty of 80% efficiency brews with the old hose plopped in the top. I've seen simple and innovative home solutions for sparge apparati. I've seen some pretty elegant and expensive SS sparge rings, that are damn tempting. Consider this - when Blichmann did the Auto-Soarge, they chose the hose on a float route. They do a lot of background on ideas before they release very expensive products. Some of which are a little odd, but anyway…

I've used almost entirely hose in the top, and haven't really compared this to using some sort of sparge apparatus. I don't think I'm experienced enough with both sorts to even have an informed opinion.

My guess would be your efficiency issue would be coming from elsewhere. What's at the bottom of that mash tun? How's the wort removed from the pot, and recirc'ed?


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## JDW81 (25/7/16)

hooper80 said:


> Hi blokes, I have a herms system and am trying to better my efficiency. I'm wondering if recirculating through a Sparge ring and sparging through a Sparge ring would be better than the length of silicone hose I am now using which gives me a whirlpool?


What is your current efficiency?


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## Camo6 (25/7/16)

Timely topic. Was discussing a similar issue with another brewer recently and suspect my efficiency took a bit of a hit when I went from a silicone sparge ring to a Blichmann Autosparge. Might not be the case and not too fussed about the drop but gives me an excuse to tinker and trial a Beerbelly type return dish to accommodate the AS's return hose. An old post of Dicko's prompted me to grab a SS camping mug from the $2 shop tonight. Time to make use of the new E size bottle of argon my accountant made me buy.


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## hooper80 (25/7/16)

Mardoo said:


> You'll get differing opinions on that one. Could be fun to watch. Popcorn anyone?
> 
> I've seen plenty of 80% efficiency brews with the old hose plopped in the top. I've seen simple and innovative home solutions for sparge apparati. I've seen some pretty elegant and expensive SS sparge rings, that are damn tempting. Consider this - when Blichmann did the Auto-Soarge, they chose the hose on a float route. They do a lot of background on ideas before they release very expensive products. Some of which are a little odd, but anyway…
> 
> ...


It's a 50lt keg with a false bottom. Then a $80 pump pumps it through a 1/2 copper coil In my hlt the back into the mash tun with a silicone hose. My efficiency is 65-70%


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## hooper80 (25/7/16)

JDW81 said:


> What is your current efficiency?


 65%


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## Mardoo (26/7/16)

Camo6 said:


> Timely topic. Was discussing a similar issue with another brewer recently and suspect my efficiency took a bit of a hit when I went from a silicone sparge ring to a Blichmann Autosparge.


How big a drop?


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## Camo6 (26/7/16)

From memory I was getting about 80% according to Beersmith but now aim for about 72% and still have trouble hitting my numbers regularly. I'd made a few changes to the setup and not overly concerned but would still like to get to the bottom of it.


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## klangers (26/7/16)

There is no need for a sparge ring/sprayers in home brew scales, as the depth of sparge liquor above the grain bed relative to the width of the grain bed is sufficient to allow the liquor to evenly flow around.

Sparge sprayers in large mash tuns are necessary as the depth of liquor remains similar (1-2") but the mash tun is obviously much wider, so the liquor doesn't tend to evenly move without the sprayers.
Any dribbling or dripping will let additional oxygen to dissolve in, and that's not ideal either.


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## Mardoo (26/7/16)

There has to be a sparge arm experiment buried somewhere on this site. No luck finding one last night though.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (26/7/16)

I've had troubles recirculating my mash. I use a SS float and hose return (same as Blichmann Auto-sparge without the float valve) - I throttle a ball valve to adjust the flow. Patience has yielded the best results by simply not recirculating for 15-30minutes to let bed settle and slowly slowly slowly cranking the return flow up over time.

Problems with my method:

This takes more than half the mash time on simple brews and given I am running on RIMS, I *NEED* high flow relatively quickly in order to be able to step my mash temps. It's 'workable' at the moment because I don't often do short first steps like protein rests etc, yet.
Even when I get a nice steady gentle whirlpool return, I'm still seeing a "dig out" of the top of mash bed along pot wall directly under where the hose return comes in.
If I'm impatient and start flow within first 15 mins, this channeling is quite bad and for e.g. the last brew I did we lost 0.008 points from the planned efficiency.
I might also after stirring my mash initially to ensure no dough balls be lifting the false bottom slightly and getting crud/grain stuck under there. Have not been able to confirm this but thinking some SS tube and comp fittings to mount my mash tun might be more rigid than my current silicone hose setup and prevent this potential issue.

I'm also planning on trying the soup ladle return trick right in the centre of the bed next time. Will start the flow right on 15 minutes into the mash so I am at a time I can visually compare difference to using the float/hose return. 

Anyone else have any other suggestions?


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## DJ_L3ThAL (26/7/16)

Photos of such channeling from brew day before last. I was quite patient and had decent flow once I got it going. Still was 0.005 points short and had the noticeable flow paths on side wall and cracks through top of the grain bed as shown.


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## Screwtop (26/7/16)

For best efficiency in my system I fly/continuous sparge and over 10 years I have tried many types of sparge devices. Originally I ordered a rotating sparge arm from the US which I had numerous problems with. Mainly temp loss in the sparge water and not spinning due to the low sparge flow. I needed to sparge over 30 min for best efficience so the flow through the rotating arm was not enough to maintain rotation, it just stopped and dribbled water. it's still on a shelf somewhere in the brewshed! I shied away from a float valve as they clutter up the top of the mash tun and restrict access if stirring is required. For my HERMS system I need a device which would not block up. Tried using a copper ring with slots cut into it which was my original Mash Tun Manifold, it clogged with bits of grist so it was relegated to the bits bin too. Next was a length of hose with holes which also clogged up, so I removed the end bung. This worked so I tried a length of silicone hose with a round fishing float at the end to hold the end at the surface of the liquid in the tun. This worked well but was not best as the wort/sparge water was not leaving the mash undisturbed. Tried a cup with the hose in it and a few other methods like floating dishes etc. What I wanted was to use a manifold of some description which distributed the returning wort (when recirculating) and sparge water evenly across the grainbed without disturbing it, and without blocking up. Also during recirculation I wanted the wort to return below the wort surface in the tun to minimise both heat loss and oxidation of the wort. A fellow brewer came up with this, works a treat. At the beginning of the recirc some grist is circulated until the wort clears, using this device any blockage of the small holes is soon cleared as the wort then flows up to the height of the end opening and flows out there, resulting in just enough of a rise in pressure to clear the holes, usually they are only blocked by a bit of grist or husk and soon clear. The upward flow in this new manifold seems to clear much better than previous manifolds I have used mounded above the wort which seem to remain blocked. 

This manifold sits on top of the grainbed and the outlets face up. Deadset simple but works a treat. I watched it in use in my mate's mash tun which is similar to mine which has an internal diameter of 360mm. The grainbed looked great after draining, no signs of channeling of disturbance. Cant wait to use it in my system.


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## mofox1 (26/7/16)

Seriously... where can I get one of these?!


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## stilvia (26/7/16)

Ive been waiting for someone to stock these is
Aus:

http://www.ssbrewtech.com/collections/accessories/products/re-circulation-manifold-for-infussion-mash-tuns


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## mofox1 (26/7/16)

stilvia said:


> Ive been waiting for someone to stock these is
> Aus:
> 
> http://www.ssbrewtech.com/collections/accessories/products/re-circulation-manifold-for-infussion-mash-tuns


Snap... thanks Stilvia. Looks pretty similar!


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## Screwtop (26/7/16)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Photos of such channeling from brew day before last. I was quite patient and had decent flow once I got it going. Still was 0.005 points short and had the noticeable flow paths on side wall and cracks through top of the grain bed as shown.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have seen this on my system before, mostly due to too much stirring of the grist. With HERMS/RIMS its best to stir gently and only at the mash in, and again once the temp has been raised to mash out. At the higher temp (Mash Out 77c) the mash is far more open due to lower viscosity and much of the grist floats at this stage. During the Mash Out Stand it settles back with good even distribution.

Too much stirring during and not stirring after the ramp to Mash Out temp results in flour and small particulate matter being stirred into suspension which settles on top of the grainbed forming an impervious layer, the liquid then takes the path of least resistance - usually down the sides of the tun due to this muddy layer across the top of the grain bed. This seems to be more of a problem with smaller domed false bottoms. 

The basic principals of mash separation are that wort is strained through a filter bed made up of the husk and solid material (Grist) which is held on a screen or filter. The important issue is flow rate, which depends upon a combination of filter surface area, pressure differential across filter, and wort viscosity. For the best flow rate we need a large filter surface area, a shallow filter bed, equal differential pressure across the filter bed and low wort viscosity.

Have a look at the pic in my post you will see the false bottom in the bottom of my mate Liam's Mash Tun. He made this one from SS Mesh and I am fitting one when I upgrade to a 70L tun. 

Screwy


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## Screwtop (26/7/16)

stilvia said:


> Ive been waiting for someone to stock these is
> Aus:
> 
> http://www.ssbrewtech.com/collections/accessories/products/re-circulation-manifold-for-infussion-mash-tuns



Looks good,

My mate designed his with as much distribution across the grainbed as possible in mind. I see with this similar style of manifold much of the wort is returned around the outer perimeter. I would rather not have a similar problem as mentioned by DH_L3ThAL

Screwy


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## Dae Tripper (26/7/16)

I MUST HAVE ONE!


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## technobabble66 (26/7/16)

A really cheap option is to simply mould a piece of aluminum foil over a shallow bowl, scrunch down the edges and use a fork/etc to punch holes across the new tin bowl to allow extra drainage. Clamp the hose to the side of the mashtun with the end sitting in the mainly-submerged "bowl". The wort/sparge can flow over the top and thru the holes. 
Since doing this, I have a nice even mash bed top, and great efficiency. Takes ~5mins to organize. Costs ~$0.10.


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## Mardoo (26/7/16)

Wow, now that's a very interesting design Screwtop, and beautiful piece of work. I also like the commercial version you posted stilvia. This is a very interesting one from Morebeer, and hella expensive too! Here's a BA forum on it.


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## stilvia (26/7/16)

I know Andrew from Full Pint said the distributor was getting them in, and thought they'd be in about mid may..


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## VP Brewing (26/7/16)

This is my very basic return in my 1V setup. 
It's just a length of copper left over from my ghetto HERMS that I have crimped at one end and drilled 4 holes right through. Should get the idea from the pic. Works really well and I only have to leave the grain settle a couple of min before I can fully recirculate.


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## Screwtop (26/7/16)

mofox1 said:


> Seriously... where can I get one of these?!



Haha, makes them to order, price depends upon size. His new model has 16mm arms, mine's an earlier model (12mm arms).

Screwy


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## Screwtop (26/7/16)

technobabble66 said:


> A really cheap option is to simply mould a piece of aluminum foil over a shallow bowl, scrunch down the edges and use a fork/etc to punch holes across the new tin bowl to allow extra drainage. Clamp the hose to the side of the mashtun with the end sitting in the mainly-submerged "bowl". The wort/sparge can flow over the top and thru the holes.
> Since doing this, I have a nice even mash bed top, and great efficiency. Takes ~5mins to organize. Costs ~$0.10.
> 
> 
> ...


Holee Shite that tun is full!!!!!! Yesh have done this in the past, but when I removed it to stir before mash out is got all out of shape, PITA haha

Screwy


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## technobabble66 (26/7/16)

Yeah, i have 30L urns and prefer to turn out 25L batches - so it makes for fairly full mashes :lol:

I should've mentioned - i normally use the tin foil "bowl" when i recirc at mashout and prepare to sparge.
Prior to that prefer to have the top free for stirring - similar to you, screwtop. 

FWIW, i'd suggest a smooth, even grain-bed *should* be important just at the mashout & sparge, rather than during the mash steps.
During the main mash(/steps) you should just need a reasonable flow of liquid through the whole bed to achieve the temp changes - slightly uneven flow dynamics through the bed should make reasonably little difference. It'll equate to some parts getting warmer a few minutes faster than others but overall it'll gradually achieve the desired uniform temp change. Aside from the 50-55°C protease step, which is generally very quick (~5mins), the difference in a few minutes here or there would/should make ~no difference. And if you're stirring anyway, this'll be irrelevant - it'll all change temp at the same time.
Whereas the mash out step & sparge is flushing the sugars out in a single pass (& no stirring!), so you'd want it to be as even as possible.
Hence, i just do the flow-catcher thingy at the mashout.


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## mofox1 (26/7/16)

Screwtop said:


> Haha, makes them to order, price depends upon size. His new model has 16mm arms, mine's an earlier model (12mm arms).
> 
> Screwy


Mind sharing how much yours set you back? I feel a ka-ching moment approaching..


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## Screwtop (26/7/16)

Mardoo said:


> Wow, now that's a very interesting design Screwtop, and beautiful piece of work. I also like the commercial version you posted stilvia. This is a very interesting one from Morebeer, and hella expensive too! Here's a BA forum on it.



Yeah looked at that, it's fine for sparging but I have a HERMS System I want the wort returning to the mash tun in as gentle a fashion as possible !

Screwy


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## Mardoo (26/7/16)

How do you see that as not gentle enough? Is it spraying against the top plate?


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## TidalPete (26/7/16)

That's an interesting sparge setup you've got these days Screwy & I agree with your comments about the similar HEX return stilvia showed us in Post 15.

What sort of mash eff are you getting if you don't mind my asking?


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## DJ_L3ThAL (27/7/16)

Screwtop said:


> I have seen this on my system before, mostly due to too much stirring of the grist. With HERMS/RIMS its best to stir gently and only at the mash in, and again once the temp has been raised to mash out. At the higher temp (Mash Out 77c) the mash is far more open due to lower viscosity and much of the grist floats at this stage. During the Mash Out Stand it settles back with good even distribution.
> 
> Too much stirring during and not stirring after the ramp to Mash Out temp results in flour and small particulate matter being stirred into suspension which settles on top of the grainbed forming an impervious layer, the liquid then takes the path of least resistance - usually down the sides of the tun due to this muddy layer across the top of the grain bed. This seems to be more of a problem with smaller domed false bottoms.
> 
> ...


I don't normally stir after the initial dough in unless I can't get a recirc happening, as in zero flow. So doubt it was anything to do with stirring during the mash.

You say stirring at Mash Out. As in stirring between the mash and sparging? Is that actually done as normal practice? I always thought to not disturb the bed at all to ensure the most clear wort and that a properly settled bed, correct mill gap and good false bottom design would mean no need to do any stirring as the flow distribution being even does all the work for you?




technobabble66 said:


> A really cheap option is to simply mould a piece of aluminum foil over a shallow bowl, scrunch down the edges and use a fork/etc to punch holes across the new tin bowl to allow extra drainage. Clamp the hose to the side of the mashtun with the end sitting in the mainly-submerged "bowl". The wort/sparge can flow over the top and thru the holes.
> Since doing this, I have a nice even mash bed top, and great efficiency. Takes ~5mins to organize. Costs ~$0.10.
> 
> 
> ...


I will give this or the soup ladle return a go next brew day. Does it not cause some channeling having the bowl concentric to the pot?



technobabble66 said:


> Yeah, i have 30L urns and prefer to turn out 25L batches - so it makes for fairly full mashes :lol:
> 
> I should've mentioned - i normally use the tin foil "bowl" when i recirc at mashout and prepare to sparge.
> Prior to that prefer to have the top free for stirring - similar to you, screwtop.
> ...


When you say top free for stirring, do you stir the entire mash or just a 'portion' of it around the top section?

I was under impression the more recirculation the clearer the wort, so by settling the grain bed as quickly as possible allowed me to 

a. recirculate at a decent flow to ensure RIMS effectiveness and ramp ability.
b. allowed more time throughout mash steps to clear up the wort.

Your wort looks super clear in that pic, is that stirred up around mash out and only recirced for 15mins or so to clear up that well?


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## technobabble66 (28/7/16)

Ermm, i think i'll try to answer everything you ask 
It's not instantly failsafe - you need to set it up so the flow of wort is not too strong in a particular direction. If the wort is swirling in a circle around the pot, it'll be digging out the bed and channeling. So you need to jiggle the "bowl" around a little to get the flow out of the 2 sides nearest the edge of the urn/pot to be roughly even and not too strong, and then allow some flow to escape in other sections (you may need to tap some divots into the edge to do this) to help negate a circular flow around the pot. Dunno if that makes sense or sounds complicated? It's not - takes ~1min to arrange it &/or correct it to ensure fairly even flow.
TBH, i'm curious as to whether the soup ladle would be as easy to use to achieve this. It may be, but i've found the ability to easily manipulate the pliable foil very convenient. Maybe the rigid but uniform edge of the ladle would make it just as easy.

When i stir the mash, i stir the whole lot. It's to allow rapid dispersion of the ramping heat, as i use an urn and i've had issues with using solely recirculation to achieve this - i know that should work fine. It doesn't. And my current method works nicely. Plus i believe stirring the crap out of the grain on the few ramping steps i do helps free up more starch for greater efficiency. FWIW, i think i've nailed a few minor issues with my processes so it's probably about time to have another go at the 100% recirc gig.
Anyway, those shenanigans aside, the basic concept should still be solid - when you're ready to recirculate, set up your little foil bowl, make your adjustments, and let it work its magic!

Yeah, you need a decent amount of time to recirculate to get the clear wort. I've found 20mins is minimum, 30 mins is best. Obviously if you're recirc'ing throughout the mash schedule, it'll be plenty of time.
These days, i normally set up my recirc in the 72°C-to-78°C ramp. That makes for ~10-15mins of time, plus another 5-10mins of recirc'ing to clear it, plus ensure most/all of the mash bed is getting to 78°C by the time i start draining and sparging.
As always, there's a bit of a trick to getting the flow rate right - a balance between getting a fast flow to stop the element overheating the wort & to distribute the heat steadily through the mash bed, but not too fast that it sucks down the mash bed and compacts it (Rice Hulls FTW!).

The wort in that pic would've been as above, stirred regularly throughout the mash schedule until the 72->78°C ramp. Then recirc'ed (break/cut up the protein sediment slightly across the top ~1cm of the bed) during the ramp and for another 10mins or so.

I hope that explains it (& you haven't fallen asleep!) :unsure: :lol:


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## stilvia (6/8/16)

I ended up emailing New Era Brewing (Aust dist for SS Brewtech) and querying if they were getting stock. They said they had just got some in and weren't on the site yet. All ordered and received this morning.

Got to say quality is awesome. Going to give it a test run Tuesday and will report back then.


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## Mardoo (6/8/16)

Looks great. What was the price?


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## stilvia (6/8/16)

Mardoo said:


> Looks great. What was the price?


Price was $79 plus delivery


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## Dae Tripper (6/8/16)

What is the diameter?


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## stilvia (6/8/16)

Dae Tripper said:


> What is the diameter?


The diameter is 320mm. I was thinking I'd have some issues as I have a 300mm hole in the top of my keggle. Luckily, the gaps in the sparge ring allows it to slot between the top when putting it in/out.


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## mofox1 (6/8/16)

Mine arrived the other day. Can't wait to try it out... Unfortunately I don't think I'll get a brew day for a few weeks.

Going with barbs on the inside of the esky for now. I think I've got a few spare cam locks lying around which will make it more easily removable later on.


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## breakbeer (9/8/16)

This is exactly what I need, without previously knowing I needed it

Is it just New Era who have them in stock? Now that Full Pint is closed, who is the Victorian SS Brewtech distributor?


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## mofox1 (9/8/16)

New Era certainly _had_ them in stock... not sure if he still has them or not. They may not have even been listed yet (max of 4 left after Stilvia & myself).

Failing that CleverBrewing sells SS Brewtech gear, you could give them a hollar & see if they want to pull an order with first dibs to you? Full Pint listed they were "partnering" with Clever Brewing, so you might find them as the next Vic distributor.

Good luck. FYI - the ring has a 3/8" barb, so you will need to downgrade you tubing if you were previously using 1/2". Hopefully for the relatively short distance it is used for it won't make too much difference.


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## breakbeer (12/8/16)

Thanks mate, I ended up calling New Era & ordering one

It's exactly the design I had in my head but thought would be really expensive to have custom made


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## stilvia (13/8/16)

Beer brewed yesterday and the sparge ring worked really well. Normally I have the silicon hose laying on top of the grain bed. I find even at the slowest recirc speeds, I get a small amount of channeling. I didn't have this at all with the sparge ring.. Photos below during recirc and sparge.


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## mofox1 (13/8/16)

Looks pretty pretty.

Did you manage to get it to work with 1/2" tubing? I changed mine over to 3/8 to fit the sparge ring snuggly.


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## stilvia (13/8/16)

Yeah I'm using 1/2" tube and attached it with a hose clamp. Seemed to hold up alright. I hooked it up before I brewed to run some TSP trough it and even at full steam held up well.


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## Meddo (27/9/16)

I knocked up a ghetto interpretation of the ss manifold as a wort recirculation return for my 1V. Silicon hose offcuts with 2mm drilled holes, quick connect fitting with hose barb and three SS tee barbs - total cost maybe ~$18. Seems to be doing the job reasonably well, I'm open to suggestions for improvements though - not sure if maybe enlarging some of the holes to reduce spray distance might be worthwhile?

Sorry about the poor pic and video quality.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbhdfKmm7UM


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## damoninja (27/9/16)

Camo6 said:


> From memory I was getting about 80% according to Beersmith but now aim for about 72% and still have trouble hitting my numbers regularly. I'd made a few changes to the setup and not overly concerned but would still like to get to the bottom of it.


I comfortably manage this range batch sparge recirc each batch run for 10 minutes


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## breakbeer (29/9/16)

Awesome work meddo! 

I love how people on here just go "**** that, I'm gonna make me own" & come up with some ingenious shit


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