# Cider Taste For 2 Batches Of Coopers



## icarussound (16/12/09)

I'm drinking my second batch of beer. The first was an old kit and the cider taste was not too terrible - I told my daughter is was "fruity" and we drank it up. This batch was not old but it has a bit of a cider taste also. Still quite drinkable but...

On friday I'll try my first non Coopers beer, my modified recipe for American pale ale w/extra hops. I am looking forward to trying it but I am now concerned about this tasting cidery.

Is this common for Coopers kits - could it be the yeast, or an infection? What is strange about this is that after 2 weeks when I tried the beers it was pretty good, but now 3-4 weeks in the bottle it seems to have this cider underflavor.

Steve


----------



## Supra-Jim (16/12/09)

A cidery taste can be a common result from the basic tin of goo + 1kg of sugar, high ferment temps can also result in this.

Ideally if you can keep the ferment temp (for ales) between about 18-20degC, and as a first step look at replacing 1kg of sugar with a 1kg Cooper Brew Enhancer (or 1 kg of light dried malt if you like). These steps will help reduce/remove the cidery taste.

Trying a better yeast than what provided with the can (assuming thats what you used) can/will also improve your resulting beer (esp if you can control the temp).

Sounds like your already on your way for experimenting with recipes, post up your proposed friday recipe and we'll see what you've got.

Cheers SJ


----------



## Supra-Jim (16/12/09)

Edit: green apple flavour can also be a sign of an infection, can't remember which one!

Cheers SJ


----------



## Pennywise (16/12/09)

What fermentables & yeast did you use with the kit and what temp did you ferment at? Was it a stable temp?


----------



## tdh (16/12/09)

If a can plus sugar then reduce sugar to max 500g.
Then either leave as is filled to 23 litre
or reduce fill level to 19 litre
or add 500g of malt extract to replace.

In my early days I often used two cans of 'any brand' draught/lager plus 500g sugar in 23 litres for an easier drinking full strength beer.

tdh


----------



## icarussound (16/12/09)

Well the fermentation temp was pretty much 18-20 for two weeks. I used, for the last batch, the Coopers IPA + brew enhancer as directed (450 g of DME and 350 of dextrose I think it was.) It's irritating not to have good beer for my second batch! My recipe/log for this last one, which has been in the bottles for 10 days was:

Stressed ale - November 18, 2009

3 lbs amber Bries Sparkling Amber DME mixed into 3 gals cold water
brought to boil then added:

60 mins 1/2 oz Simcoe hops 12.7%
30 mins 1/2 oz Amarillo hops 7.5%
10 mins 1 oz Cascade 7.5% (total IBU about 46)

5 mins mixed in 3.3 lbs Coopers Light LME

Cooled wort but not as much as I should have perhaps

Put still hot wort in fermenter, added filtered & distilled cool water to make 19 L total (5 US gals)
pitched hydrated Safeale US-05 dry american ale yeast
Temp was around 26C

OG measured was 1048

I called it stressed ale because at the end I was seriously stressed trying to cool the wort enough to pitch the yeast and get to work on time - I was 15 mins late! I am going to try a bottle on Friday. :wacko: 

Steve


----------



## megs80 (16/12/09)

Supra-Jim said:


> A cidery taste can be a common result from the basic tin of goo + 1kg of sugar, high ferment temps can also result in this.
> 
> Ideally if you can keep the ferment temp (for ales) between about 18-20degC, and as a first step look at replacing 1kg of sugar with a 1kg Cooper Brew Enhancer (or 1 kg of light dried malt if you like). These steps will help reduce/remove the cidery taste.
> 
> ...



I agree with SJ, Ingredients like brew booster rather than just simple sugars and better yeast eg safbrew yeast will improve flavour and body of your beer. 
Apart from sanitation, the problem could be acetaldeyde. 
Once your fermentation has finished (3-5 days). Raise your temp alittle bit to around 23 and leave for a few of days. Dont worry about the production of fusals at this point becouse the yeast have already done their work. This give the yeast some time to eat up some of the nasty flavours they have produced during their eating, multiplying orgy.

Good luck with your brewing!

Brewstrong,
Megs


----------



## Gout (16/12/09)

I dont know what it is with kits, but i always had a strange cider like taste in my beers. I moved to AG and never get it so i thought it was just that kit tang you get from the production of the kits. Mind you its been about 6 years since i used kits so maybe they have improved ( or i just suck at kits)


----------



## MarkBastard (16/12/09)

Gout said:


> I dont know what it is with kits, but i always had a strange cider like taste in my beers. I moved to AG and never get it so i thought it was just that kit tang you get from the production of the kits. Mind you its been about 6 years since i used kits so maybe they have improved ( or i just suck at kits)



I agree. You can taste it most when the beer is under carbed. Carbing it sort of hides the flavour a bit. I'm getting to the point now where I just can't drink kits.


----------



## icarussound (16/12/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I agree. You can taste it most when the beer is under carbed. Carbing it sort of hides the flavour a bit. I'm getting to the point now where I just can't drink kits.




Well that's discouraging. I've been thinking about recipes and looking forward to some good beer but frankly I am not interested at this point in going all grain. Too much work, too much time, & a whole set of additional "stuff" I would need. I am moving on from the no boil kits but I plan on doing extract brewing for a while (unless they all turn out cider tasting in which case I'l give it all up, buy some decent beer and call it a day!)


----------



## .DJ. (16/12/09)

make sure you are getting fresh extract and steep some grains... or even do a partial....

But get someone to taste you beer.. could be an infection???


----------



## Gout (16/12/09)

I would not give up, you can still make very good beer with kits. I have had them but I have not brewed them. 

Some of the guys here produce great kit beers and i have tasted some that stand up well with AG beers.

When i was brewing in the UK i was using kits as i had no room in the flat, they where not the cheapest kits but had 2 tins in the pack and they produced a great drop for little work.

I think the key is temp control, clean equipment, less sugar and as your doing hops and extract or even some steeped grains might add some extra goodness

I guess time to age is also worth it but i am a pig and cant hold out long


----------



## gunbrew (16/12/09)

Don't be discoraged.

Avoid using sugar in your brew.

Keep the fermenting Temprature constant at about 18 to 20 degrees.

Clean everything well including your fermenter tap and the thread where it screws in.

I have recently brewed coopers european larger.
Used 3 cans of coopers european larger and 500g of coopers light malt extract to make 50 litres.
No cidery taste and very nice.
Very good beer can be made from kits.

You could try using 2 coopers cans and nothing else for 23 litres if you do not want to be boiling up.

That said your next brew sounds great.
Good luck.


----------



## icarussound (16/12/09)

I've read about extract "tang" so perhaps that might be it for the last two batches - old LME. I've also been reading about acetaldehyde. Perhaps secondary fermentation is a good idea for me? Or 3 + weeks in the primary fermenter? I don't know but I am now finding millions of threads complaining of cidery beer. You can make good tasting beer using extract right?!

OK I just read some replies above. I am not discouraged yet but damn I sure hope this next batch is decent! I'll let you know!

I also have another Coopers kit with extra hops and LME in one fermenter and a full blown IPA in another fermenter ready to be dry hopped next week. The IPA is going to be my magnum opus so I'll let it ferment and condition for a while.

Steve


----------



## MarkBastard (16/12/09)

steve da sleeve said:


> Well that's discouraging. I've been thinking about recipes and looking forward to some good beer but frankly I am not interested at this point in going all grain. Too much work, too much time, & a whole set of additional "stuff" I would need. I am moving on from the no boil kits but I plan on doing extract brewing for a while (unless they all turn out cider tasting in which case I'l give it all up, buy some decent beer and call it a day!)



I've never had the issue with doing all extract beers so I wouldn't worry too much. Doing all extract beers is pretty easy, just takes a bit longer than kits, but well worth it.

A darker kit like a stout may not give the problem.

Happens to me when I use light kits like the Canadian one of the regular Coopers Pale Ale, with brew enhancers, with US05 yeast, with perfect temp control (in a fridge with a fridge mate at 18 degrees), and with good cleanliness (including using starsan). I'm convinced it's just the actual kit giving the flavour. I may try using the yeast with the kit at warmer temperatures just to see how that turns out, considering that I've noticed on this forum people give out advice because they read it somewhere else, and it has a snowball affect and soon becomes gospel.


----------



## barneyb (16/12/09)

My first brew (Coopers Lager) turned out waaay cidery. I think it was due to an infection though as it is undrinkable and 10+ weeks in the bottle and it is still rubbish.

I havent tasted it with my other brews however so I'm pretty sure it was an infection and not kit twang. 




steve da sleeve said:


> but frankly I am not interested at this point in going all grain. Too much work, too much time, & a whole set of additional "stuff" I would need.


Let me introduce you to Brew In a Bag:
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...showtopic=38674
I'm still doing extracts yet I'm already a convert to this, it looks so easy and cheap. I have one more extract in me before I go to brewing this way, I read so many good things and it doesn't look like too much extra work on doing a full extract boil.


----------



## rclemmett (16/12/09)

People are so quick to blame the sugar...... Be nice to your yeast and it will be nice to you.

Aerate the wort (not when its hot)

Pitch at the right termp (make sure the yeast is at least within 10C of the wort)

Pitch the right amount of yeast (overpitching a little can help, not on a whole yeast cake though)

Keep it at the right temp

Keep it in the fermenter long enough to finish

Another thing is making sure that the yeast has all the nutrients it needs (I feel AG helps with this but is not necessary)

flame suit on.


----------



## icarussound (18/12/09)

Just quick update - my non kit Pale Ale tastes great, no cider flavor, two weeks in the bottle. I couldn't wait another week so I chilled a couple and tried them out with my wife. So I'm thinking the coopers yeast, not enough time in the fermenter, or old goop made my last two batches cidery. Phew it's nice to know I can make decent beer even if it took three batches! I'm trying a toucan this weekend and racking my IPA to dry hop it. Probably won't do any more Coopers kits after I finish my current stash.

Cheers,
Steve da sleeve


----------



## Adamt (18/12/09)

It's poorly treated yeast (old/half-dead, or high temperature fermentation) that produces the real cidery/green apple flavour. Old extract can cause a metallic "twang", and using lots of sugar/dextrose yields a drier finish, which makes the cider/twang more noticeable.


----------



## icarussound (18/12/09)

Adamt said:


> It's poorly treated yeast (old/half-dead, or high temperature fermentation) that produces the real cidery/green apple flavour. Old extract can cause a metallic "twang", and using lots of sugar/dextrose yields a drier finish, which makes the cider/twang more noticeable.



That's good to know. I'll try the next two Coopers kits - my remaining from a sale - with different yeast. I'm a Scot though so I can't toss the yeast that came with the kits, I have 4 packs of it. Any suggestions?!


----------



## Adamt (18/12/09)

Use two packs for a single batch, that will help it.

One of those Coopers yeast packs is a little less than enough yeast and that's only if all of the yeast are viable. After hte yeast is strapped to a hot-packed can of extract, then shipped around everywhere in awful conditions, it's a surprise anything survives!


----------



## bullfrog (18/12/09)

steve da sleeve said:


> That's good to know. I'll try the next two Coopers kits - my remaining from a sale - with different yeast. I'm a Scot though so I can't toss the yeast that came with the kits, I have 4 packs of it. Any suggestions?!



You can boil them in a bit of water and then pitch them (when cooled) before you pitch your yeast. Turns it into a yeast nutrient.


----------

