# Belgian Candi Syrup. D-180, D-90, D45



## A3k

[SIZE=medium]Hi guys,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]I’ve been brewing a few Belgian Dubbels lately, and am considering Quads and considering making some lighter alcohol versions with similar characteristics to the Dubbels and Quads.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]So far I’ve used the candi syrup that’s available from many homebrew shops around [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]http://www.darkcandi.com/d.html[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. I’m not 100% sold on the stuff (could be my recipe though), so I’ve been reading around.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I’ve read good reports from the stuff these guys make. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]http://www.candisyrup.com/[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] I also like their recipes.[/SIZE]

*[SIZE=medium]Has anyone tried them in comparison with the former syrup? [/SIZE]*

[SIZE=medium]The price seems ok. I’m considering buying 8, which I can get shipped for US$59 + US$50. which comes to $15AUD each.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]It does seem a bit steep, but I’m happy to do it if the product is better than the stuff I’ve been using.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Cheers,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Al[/SIZE]


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## slash22000

You know you can make candi sugar yourself? It's extremely easy and costs almost nothing. There are thousands of guides on the net, I dunno which one is the best one though, maybe somebody can link a good one.


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## All.Hopped.Up

I was considering purchasing some of this http://www.organicsaustraliaonline.com.au/category214_1.htm < Organic Beer sugar and making my own.


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## A3k

[SIZE=11pt]Thanks Slash & All Hopped Up,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]I’m not 100% convinced that I’ll make syrup that’ll taste authentic. I’m happy to give it a go, but I’d prefer to wait until I’m 100% happy with my results with a commercial product first to reduce the variables. When I do give it a crack, I’ll want to do a side by side with commercial too so I have a baseline.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Having said that, I have made the clear stuff for a Tripel, but that’s a bit different, as I’m not after such complex flavours.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Thanks,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Al[/SIZE]


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## manticle

slash22000 said:


> You know you can make candi sugar yourself? It's extremely easy and costs almost nothing. There are thousands of guides on the net, I dunno which one is the best one though, maybe somebody can link a good one.


Ever tasted commercial d2?


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## slash22000

Nah I've never bought candi syrup from a store. Is it that much better than home made? I mean, $109 USD for ~3.6 kilos?


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## manticle

The clear candi isn't worth the cash but the very dark stuff is quite different in flavour from anything I have ever made. It's expensive but I use it only in special brews. It's pretty distinctive as a syrup and those flavours carry over. Bottled up a dark strong recently that I will try and age for a year or so so a few extra bucks is worth it.


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## A3k

Slash, it is expensive, but as manticle said, it's only for special brews... if it wasn't for the delivery, it's actually quite cheap i reckon.

Manticle, have you tried the D-180, 90 etc?

Cheers


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## manticle

The stuff I usually get is from grain and grape and it is repackaged. Stuff I got recently was from gryphon - I think it was from your first link but I'm not sure. Very similar character to the GG stuff. Only used the darkest syrup.

Belgian yeasts need a lot of love and conditioning in my experience. Are you sure it's an ingredients issue? What yeast?


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## A3k

Hi manticle,
I reckon I got the dark from g&g not the darkest.

I'm not sure it's an ingredients issue. I've had other issues such as over attenuation and possibly not oxygenating enough too. 

Yeast was wy3787 westmalle yeast.

I am curious how much difference there is between the candi makers, and if its worth paying a little more to get the stuff from the US.

Cheers


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## manticle

I'd try it at least once.
I've never had great results with 3787 but I may not have aged long enough. 1762 abbey ii for dark and 1388 for pale get my vote. Both need age and care in my experience.


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## jotaigna

I like the d2-180, I have used it in dubbels. Raisiny date type flavours you cannot get from malt. I agree it is expensive but compared to how much imported commercial Belgian beers cost, I think it is still justified.

Manticle, can you explain what do you mean by 'care' wrt yeast? Oxygen? Pitching rates?
Ta


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## manticle

Healthy pitching rate/adequate starter size, reduced temperature at the beinning allowed to slowly rise through fermentation, incremental feeding of candy sugar post main ferment, adequate clean up time, long conditioning/lagering time are all things that have helped my bigger belgian style brews.


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## humulus

I reckon its worth the $$ recently put down a dark strong,with Belgian dark candi syrup(imported from Belgium made from sugar beets)
And my first dark strong is one year in the bottle and just come of age made withe the beet sugar,one off batches worth the $15kg
Just my 2bob


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## gap

Cryer Malt distribute the darkcandi products in Australia and would assume this is where G&G
source their candy syrup.

I can vouch for the D2 . There is no comparison between D2 and home made.
The D2 has more complexity in aroma and flavour.

Regards

Graeme


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## wereprawn

All.Hopped.Up said:


> I was considering purchasing some of this http://www.organicsaustraliaonline.com.au/category214_1.htm < Organic Beer sugar and making my own.


Why? Surly you can find cheaper beet sugar. And are beet and cane sugar both not pure sucrose when processed ? Or is it the organic label the thing you find attractive? Can one sugar be more organic than another? Buy definition the answer is clearly no. Something is considered organic if its molecules are based around carbon atoms. The whole "organic" food industry is a massive con. To say "my carrot is more organic than your carrot because of the way it was grown" is just crazy talk. 
Not meaning to put shit on you AHU .Just sayin.


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## Mardoo

FWIW from my years as a pastry chef there are differences in flavor between beet sugar and cane sugar when used in cooking. Pastry chefs generally look for cane sugar, largely because it has a cleaner flavor, particularly when caramelising for toffee. So since thats what you are doing when making candi sugar it's possible that difference would be noticeable.


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## A3k

Hi Manticle,
i assume you mean Wyeast 1762 for dark, not 1272 (the am ale ii)? i may have to give it a crack sometime. I do like Rochefort.

Humulus,
where'd you get import the Belgian syrup from?

Gap,
I've not tried the D2, just the D. I'm pretty sure you're right about the stuff G&G sell. I reckon it's the same as what Beerbelly sell too. Maybe i need to give the D2 a crack.


What i guess i'm trying to find out from this post is whether the D & D2 from darkcandi (ie Beerbelly / G&G) are the best for the job, or if there's a better (and tried) option.
As these beers need so much aging, It'd be a long process of trial and error.

Mardoo,
that's interesting about the differences between beet and cane sugars. I assumed they were just different means to the same end.

Thanks again guys


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## manticle

wereprawn said:


> Why? Surly you can find cheaper beet sugar. And are beet and cane sugar both not pure sucrose when processed ? Or is it the organic label the thing you find attractive? Can one sugar be more organic than another? Buy definition the answer is clearly no. Something is considered organic if its molecules are based around carbon atoms. The whole "organic" food industry is a massive con. To say "my carrot is more organic than your carrot because of the way it was grown" is just crazy talk.
> Not meaning to put shit on you AHU .Just sayin.


Organic food is a con? Can't wait to hear more.

The term organic in chemistry and in food are often conflated and a carrot is molecularly/atomically the same whether it's grown with loads of fertiliser or not but to suggest that there is no flavour difference between food that is grown one way as opposed to another suggests you've never actually tried it or you have no palate.

A3K - yes 1762. Have edited the original post now. 1762 throws a lot of ethyl hexoanate (red apple ester) which settles with time so the lovely date/fig etc flavours can shine.


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## wereprawn

manticle said:


> Organic food is a con? Can't wait to hear more.
> 
> The term organic in chemistry and in food are often conflated and a carrot is molecularly/atomically the same whether it's grown with loads of fertiliser or not but to suggest that there is no flavour difference between food that is grown one way as opposed to another suggests you've never actually tried it or you have no palate.
> 
> A3K - yes 1762. Have edited the original post now. 1762 throws a lot of ethyl hexoanate (red apple ester) which settles with time so the lovely date/fig etc flavours can shine.


Not saying that plants grown in different soils or with artificial fertilizers don't taste different. It's the use of the word "organic" used in the marketing. Try growing an inorganic carrot! Anyway i'm off to rehydrate some water for my next brew.


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## manticle

It's a silly use of the word I'll grant you. Doesn't make the farming methods or market entirely a con though.

There are unfortunate and laughable turns of phrase just about everywhere you look and that's only ever going to increase.


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## lael

manticle said:


> Healthy pitching rate/adequate starter size, reduced temperature at the beinning allowed to slowly rise through fermentation, incremental feeding of candy sugar post main ferment, adequate clean up time, long conditioning/lagering time are all things that have helped my bigger belgian style brews.


looks good! still looking at making my own - but want to buy to see the difference. Which dark syrup are you buying? craftbrewer? do you use a combination of syrups or all dark?


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## manticle

D2 (darkest) bought variously from grain and grape, craftbrewer and gryphon. Tasting the unfermented product suggest same/very similar product.


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## mje1980

manticle said:


> The clear candi isn't worth the cash but the very dark stuff is quite different in flavour from anything I have ever made. It's expensive but I use it only in special brews. It's pretty distinctive as a syrup and those flavours carry over. Bottled up a dark strong recently that I will try and age for a year or so so a few extra bucks is worth it.



+1000. 

Got a link to the recipe mants??


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## manticle

Will hunt up when I get home from work.


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## A3k

OK, so i had great success with my latest dubbel. it used the belgian D syryp, but was only 6.2% of fermentables. This stuff http://shop.beerbelly.com.au/ingredients/adjuncts/dark-belgian-candi-syrup-i.html

My previous attempt was way to dry, too much syrup flavour and too much yeasty banana etc. So i mashed this one higher, fermented much lower, aerated more and reduced the candi syrup (now pretty similar to Jamil's recipe).

It's awesome. I need to get some commercial ones to compare.
I think it could do with some more yeast character, but different yeast character than my first. Next time, i'll increase the temp a bit, and aerate heaps (i think the aeration was the big problem in my previous attempt).

Anyway, I bought 8 saches of candi syrup from these guys: http://www.candisyrup.com/
4 x D-180
3 x D-90
1 x D-45

I'm looking forward to trying some of their recipes.


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## aaronpetersen

I have tried both the D2 from G&G and the D180 from candisyrup.com (bought some last time I was in the states). Straight out of the packaging I thought they tasted very similar, although if I recall correctly the D180 may have been slightly more acidic. I can't comment on whether they taste different in the finished beer as I used them both together in the same batch.


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## A3k

Cheers Aaron,
I might need to do a side by side test with the two. Would be very easy to make a double batch, and put the different syrup into different fermenters.

Either way, I now have 8 packets coming, so will need to get my Belgian on!


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## A3k

My syrup arived.
Looking forward to making some brews with this stuff.


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## lael

mmm - look great! what was the total cost? how do they taste?


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## A3k

Total cost was $109USD (~$120 AUD). so it came to $15 each (mostly postage), so still more expensive that the stuff we get here, but i'll get over it.

I haven't tasted it yet. will let you know shortly.

Cheers
Al


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## manticle

manticle said:


> Will hunt up when I get home from work.


Well I got home from work a while ago but completely forgot.

We might have altered a couple of things on the day and this was over two separate systems, runnings combined in one kettle. My 26L esky tun which can produce about 30 L of wort of 1080 + beer if I push it and Vitalstatitix's herms with 50 L mash tun.

3/4 candy sugar was added post ferment in 200g amounts (actually in really rough approximate pours). I used 1762 with two packs in a big starter but it still stalled at 1030. I tried warming and a fresh starter with 1762 and got her down to about 1020 and then racked onto another active starter with 1388 and got her down to 1012. Wanted 1008 but she just wouldn't give any more. Tastes good - the 1762 throws a lot of red apple ester in early stages but conditioning knocks that right back.

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: 20130330 - ROCHEFORT 10 TRIBUTE
Brewer: Andrew *2
Asst Brewer:
Style: Belgian Dark Strong Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 71.87 l
Post Boil Volume: 60.32 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 50.00 l
Bottling Volume: 50.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.093 SG
Estimated Color: 66.5 EBC
Estimated IBU: 22.1 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 81.7 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
10.00 g Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 1 -
0.20 kg Rice Hulls (0.0 EBC) Adjunct 2 1.0 %
15.00 kg Pilsen (Dingemans) (3.2 EBC) Grain 3 72.0 %
1.25 kg Pale Wheat (Dingemans) (3.2 EBC) Grain 4 6.0 %
0.75 kg Special B (Dingemans) (290.6 EBC) Grain 5 3.6 %
0.62 kg Biscuit (Dingemans) (44.3 EBC) Grain 6 3.0 %
0.50 kg Aromatic Malt (Dingemans) (37.4 EBC) Grain 7 2.4 %
0.25 kg Caramunich Malt (110.3 EBC) Grain 8 1.2 %
0.50 kg Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 EBC) Sugar 9 2.4 %
10.00 g Calcium Chloride (Boil 90.0 mins) Water Agent 10 -
55.00 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [5.30 %] - Boil Hop 11 11.5 IBUs
55.00 g Styrian Goldings [3.50 %] - Boil 80.0 mi Hop 12 7.6 IBUs
1.25 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining 13 -
25.00 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [5.30 %] - Boil Hop 14 1.8 IBUs
25.00 g Styrian Goldings [3.50 %] - Boil 10.0 mi Hop 15 1.2 IBUs
2.50 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins) Other 16 -
0.20 g Coriander Seed (Boil 10.0 mins) Spice 17 -
2.0 pkg Belgian Abbey II (Wyeast Labs #1762) [12 Yeast 18 -
1.75 kg Candi Sugar, Dark (541.8 EBC) Sugar 19 8.4 %


Mash Schedule: HERMS - ROCHEFORT 10 TRIBUTE Stepped mash
Total Grain Weight: 20.82 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Step Add 46.44 l of water at 61.4 C 55.0 C 5 min
Step Heat to 62.0 C over 10 min 62.0 C 15 min
Step Heat to 68.0 C over 6 min 68.0 C 45 min
Step Heat to 72.0 C over 4 min 72.0 C 10 min
Step Heat to 78.0 C over 6 min 78.0 C 10 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 49.04 l water at 75.6 C
Notes:
------


Created with BeerSmith 2 - http://www.beersmith.com


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## mje1980

Thanks mate. I have 1762 in the fridge. I also have 3725 which has really stolen my heart, or liver I guess. I reckon it'd work pretty good too. Cheers again


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## manticle

Try and age some for a year or more.


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## lael

How long did it take to start to shine? Did you feel like you got close to the rocheforte?


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## fattox

I've been looking into getting some of these - I'm looking to do a Gulden Draak clone soonish, and my recipe needs ~562 grams of each (approx).

Would you recommend those guys' one? From the candisugar.com link?


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## A3k

[SIZE=medium]Hi Fattox, sorry I didn't see this earlier. I just had a the same as a PM from someone else. here's the response.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Yeah I’ve made two beers with them. They we're good to deal with directly, and fast to respond to questions.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]The first was a blonde double batch, but in one I put sugar, the other the D90. Both were nice. It was actually a really good test of what the syrup brings. I didn't was going to do a side by side with D/D2, but didn't here.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]The second was a dubbel (based on Jamil’s BCS Dubbel) with D90, with the same recipe as a previous I made with the D or D2 syrup sourced locally.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Both dubbels (D/D2 and D90) turned out too dry, but both nice. I preferred the character from the D90 but the one with D2 wasn’t as dry (probably due to mashing) so the beers were on par, but different. Unfortunately the recipe is rather complex, so the syrup was likely masked slightly by the darker grains.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I don’t have a huge experience with dark Belgians though. The reviews I found indicated that cadisyrup.com was the way to go, and with the effort involved in these beers, I fussed about the additional cost[/SIZE]. It wasn’t too expensive as I bought heaps to spread the cost of shipping, but shipping just one or two seemed overly expensive to me. 
[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]I do plan on brewing more Belgians with these, but it may be a while. I'll probably try some recipes from the Candisyrup website.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]I hope this helps. If you have any more questions, let me know (the above probably doesn't read very well). I'll post this in the forum link you quoted too.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Cheers.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Alan[/SIZE]


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## Mardoo

Hey A3k how did you get in touch with them? I've used the contact form on their website three times and no word back yet. Love to try the sugaz.


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## A3k

[SIZE=medium]I bought them in sept last year. Looking at my email, it appears that I used the contact form too, and then they started emailing me.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]I was then corresponding via the following contact[/SIZE]


Daniela DiBiase


Code:


Accounts/Sales - Candi Syrup, Inc.




Code:


[email protected]

[SIZE=medium]looking at my emails, I received 3 emails one day, 2 another etc (trying to sort out efficient postage).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Sounds like they’ve dropped the ball a little. Well, a lot.[/SIZE]


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## Mardoo

Great, thanks! I'll try her address and report back.


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## Mardoo

I contacted Daniela last night at the email you gave me A3k. Thanks! She got back to me first thing when she got to her office in the morning (judging by the email time stamp). Still great service.


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## Yob

You grabbing some Mardoo? I rekon I could be convinced to grab some with you if you haven't ordered?


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## Mardoo

Yob said:


> You grabbing some Mardoo? I rekon I could be convinced to grab some with you if you haven't ordered?


Yep. I'll give you a call.


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## fattox

I'm looking to do a Gulden Draak clone on this stuff


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