# Another Brew Controller



## Vanoontour (20/11/13)

Hey All,

Well the time has come to pimp to brewery so here's my plans and will post about the build here.

My brewery is currently here (http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/70532-3-tier-gravity-build/) but the gravity and lack of pump is not much fun any more. Still makes alright beer but am looking for a bit more consistency. So, here's the controller circuit:
View attachment Controller Circuit.pdf


I have a 15 A power point in the shed which will run the whole brewery. With help from QldKev and Truman this was designed (please sing out if something isn't right?). As I only have 15 amps and I reckon my HERMs pot will run a 2.4kW element and my HLT will have a 3kW element this adds up to more than 15 amps. So it was suggested to use a simple logic circuit (the NAND gate in the .pdf) to make it work.

Basically if the HERMs wants power it can have it and is top priority i.e. HERMs is off. If the HERMs doesn't need the power and the HLT does, then it can have it. And if neither need power then they are both off.

The PIDs are the Auber ones, 1 x SYL-2352P and 2 x SYL-2352 (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=4). The probes will be these (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=20_15&products_id=261). Is the 2.5" too long? They will be fitted into stainless tee fittings as part of the outlet valves. 

So yeah, thats about it for now.

Cheers


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## Vanoontour (22/11/13)

So I have finally purchsed all the bits last night. Heres a drawing of the proposed panel and its layout. The green circle is the pump on light and the big red one is the pump emergency stop button.


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## OzPaleAle (22/11/13)

Looks good, I knew there must be another brewer in the Manor Lakes Estate somewhere!


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## Truman42 (22/11/13)

Looking good mate, cant wait to see some photos.


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## Glot (22/11/13)

Forget the set up and just hand the pretty picture on the wall.


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## MartinOC (22/11/13)

Since the switching between the HERMS & HLT is all done on the low voltage side, wouldn't this work just as well?:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-MINI-NORMALLY-CLOSED-RELAY-DURITE-20-AMPS-0-727-02-/300931387282?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4610e88f92


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## Vanoontour (22/11/13)

MartinOC said:


> Since the switching between the HERMS & HLT is all done on the low voltage side, wouldn't this work just as well?:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-MINI-NORMALLY-CLOSED-RELAY-DURITE-20-AMPS-0-727-02-/300931387282?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4610e88f92


The relay doesn't have the logic to not supply power to the HLT if the HERMs needs it? Or did you have it wired some other way? Basically the HERMs and the HLT can't run at the same time.


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## QldKev (22/11/13)

Also thanks to Edak and whiteferret and everyone else who helped with the design in this thread for that NAND gate setup.

I would also update the wiring diagram to include the wiring going via the extra switches, as at the moment you cannot see that mash/boil switch and how it will isolate between the kettle and HLT/HERMS.

Would the probe for the HERMS be better as a 1.5" so you can use a T-peice? Check out that link they have a pic what I mean.

@MartinOC, how will that relay provide the logic to only allow one of the HMERS and HLT to use the power at a time? I could see it with a 5 terminal relay that has NO and NC terminals. But I doubt that it would last long with PID switching speeds?


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## Vanoontour (22/11/13)

QldKev said:


> Also thanks to Edak and whiteferret and everyone else who helped with the design in this thread for that NAND gate setup.
> 
> I would also update the wiring diagram to include the wiring going via the extra switches, as at the moment you cannot see that mash/boil switch and how it will isolate between the kettle and HLT/HERMS.
> 
> ...


Hey Kev, I have updated the wiring diagram to account for the 3 position switch, just not posted it. And i went with the 1.5" probe after seeing that very same pic myself.

Cheers


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## MartinOC (22/11/13)

QldKev said:


> @MartinOC, how will that relay provide the logic to only allow one of the HMERS and HLT to use the power at a time? I could see it with a 5 terminal relay that has NO and NC terminals. But I doubt that it would last long with PID switching speeds?


I got the idea from here:

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/gallery/image/6014-nc-ssr-wiring/

I will admit I'm not sure of the practicalities of achieving it &/or the NC relay's capacity to handle the switching speed of the PID (something I didn't consider, but will now!).


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## QldKev (22/11/13)

MartinOC said:


> I got the idea from here:
> 
> http://aussiehomebrewer.com/gallery/image/6014-nc-ssr-wiring/
> 
> I will admit I'm not sure of the practicalities of achieving it &/or the NC relay's capacity to handle the switching speed of the PID (something I didn't consider, but will now!).



I can only see 3 x SSRs, I cannot see any mechanical relays as you linked too in that diagram? Am I reading it wrong?

In fraser_john's wiring he adds a NC SSR to isolate the second element when the primary is active. Maybe fraser_john can jump in, but I'm not aware of any NC SSRs for under $100. That NAND gate CMOS in the OP diagram from Jaycar is 0.95c.


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## MartinOC (22/11/13)

Apparently, this is the exact model that Fraser-John used:

http://au.element14.com/crouzet/mpdcd3-b/ssr-pcb-mount-60vdc-32vdc-3a/dp/1276728?Ntt=1276728

It looks like they're currently out of stock.

When I got the idea, I looked for 12-24V SSR's on ebay (since the above item is out of stock) & that item I initially linked-to was all I could find. I didn't twig that it's actually a mechanical relay & PID's switch quickly. So now, it makes sense to go with solid state &/or source an alternative like the NAND gate (& MUCH cheaper, too!).


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## Vanoontour (25/11/13)

Got the first aid cabinet from Bunnings, cut some little shapes to ge a feel for how it will look life size and plan where stuff will go inside. The Green pump running LED is above the SSRs and heat sinks but should have 36mm clearance with the door closed.

Can anyone see any gotchas with the layout?


Cheers


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## QldKev (25/11/13)

I prefer to keep the circuit breaker closer to the power inlet. The shortest path between them is the best, that way if the cable should get damaged it is more likely to be after it and then you have the protection.


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## Vanoontour (25/11/13)

QldKev said:


> I prefer to keep the circuit breaker closer to the power inlet. The shortest path between them is the best, that way if the cable should get damaged it is more likely to be after it and then you have the protection.


Nice idea Kev,I will mount it on the same DIN rail as the SSRs down the bottom of cabinet.

Cheers


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## Vanoontour (29/11/13)

My PIDs turned up today, very impressed with the speed of delivery. All the hole are cut and filed to size. Hope to paint this weekend then wait for all the other bits to turn up.....

The 4 rectangle ones in the base are for the 16 amp IEC plugs to go to the 3 elements and the pump. I dont need that much current for all of them but it will look better the same. The 3 small circles next to them are for the temp sensors.


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## Vanoontour (2/12/13)

The switches and IEC sockets turned up today. Thought I might give everything a trial fit. Also fitted the cable gland for the 15 amp supply and the temp sensor sockets.


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## Vanoontour (12/12/13)

Finally got most of the bits, just waiting on the E Stop and the cooling fan grilles. Everything is all cut out, DIN rails mounted. Hopefully paint tomorrow while brewing then wire it all up this weekend if I get the time.


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## Vanoontour (18/12/13)

Painted the cabinet on the weekend. Final bits turned up tonight to started wiring it up. Pretty happy with the progress to date. The circuit breaker is gonna get swapped out for a two pole RCD/MCB combo breaker. The power supply in the top left of the cabinet is for the cooling fans and the NAND gate.


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## Truman42 (18/12/13)

Mate that's looks great. You've done a good job.


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## joshF (18/12/13)

I am envious of the neatness and symmetry of all your wiring and cutting mate. Looks awesome!!!!


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## QldKev (18/12/13)

Looks good.

I would talk to your sparky about the wiring on that volt/amp meter, looks wrong.


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## Vanoontour (19/12/13)

QldKev said:


> Looks good.
> 
> I would talk to your sparky about the wiring on that volt/amp meter, looks wrong.


Hey QldKev, what part of it looks wrong? Heres the link I got it from http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/141094274381?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_5528wt_984 There are pictures at the bottom. After your comment I have looked at other meters similiar and one shows the coil connected to the screw down terminals and the power connected to the red/black plug. Both of them have shown them working....

Now I'm confused.


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## Vanoontour (19/12/13)

Heres the link showing the opposite, http://www.aliexpress.com/item/D69-2042-LCD-Digital-Voltage-Panel-Mount-Voltmeter-Ammeter-double-output/1359373459.html

And heres a link to a similiar one from the same seller connected up and working, http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-AC-LCD-Panel-Digital-Ammeter-Volt-Meter-Amp-Voltmeter-100A-80V-300V-DIY/141094273034?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D261%26meid%3D3491713439255334731%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D1088%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D131024109025%26#ht_5342wt_980

Advice?


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## OzPaleAle (19/12/13)

Hey Dan, I suspect the issue is with the indicator (power on light) being inline(in series) with the voltage meter instead of in parallel.
Normally a voltmeter is used in parallel with the thing being tested so having something else in series may effect the reading\operation of the module.


The inductor looks like its on the active from the mains supply which should be correct.


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## QldKev (19/12/13)

vanoontour said:


> Heres the link showing the opposite, http://www.aliexpress.com/item/D69-2042-LCD-Digital-Voltage-Panel-Mount-Voltmeter-Ammeter-double-output/1359373459.html
> 
> And heres a link to a similiar one from the same seller connected up and working, http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-AC-LCD-Panel-Digital-Ammeter-Volt-Meter-Amp-Voltmeter-100A-80V-300V-DIY/141094273034?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D261%26meid%3D3491713439255334731%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D1088%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D131024109025%26#ht_5342wt_980
> 
> Advice?



That first link is how mine is wired up. Seeing the wiring diagram of the one you have purchased, it looks like the Chinese producer has made them backwards to each other?


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## Vanoontour (19/12/13)

OzPaleAle said:


> Hey Dan, I suspect the issue is with the indicator (power on light) being inline(in series) with the voltage meter instead of in parallel.
> Normally a voltmeter is used in parallel with the thing being tested so having something else in series may effect the reading\operation of the module.
> 
> 
> The inductor looks like its on the active from the mains supply which should be correct.


Ah Gotcha, its easy enough to put a jumper around it.


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## Vanoontour (19/12/13)

QldKev said:


> That first link is how mine is wired up. Seeing the wiring diagram of the one you have purchased, it looks like the Chinese producer has made them backwards to each other?


I know what your saying QldKev, I will have a closer look at the circuit board and see if there is anything identifying it further.


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## QldKev (19/12/13)

vanoontour said:


> I know what your saying QldKev, I will have a closer look at the circuit board and see if there is anything identifying it further.


Now we know the difference, you can actually see in the pic the arrangement of the resistors and caps are arranged opposite to each other. So the opposite power and current connections looks correct. Your electrician will check it before he connects it up.


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## Vanoontour (19/12/13)

Wiring confirmed as being correct.


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## Glot (21/12/13)

Bet it goes bang. Stop and think. The max current rating of the amp meter is 100 amps. Do those terminals look like they are rated for 100 amps? Nope. You should have a current transformer that actually connects to those terminals and one of the current carrying conductors goes through the transformer ( the small brown coil thing with two wires off it). Some of these meters have one built onto the board and some have a separate one. I cannot actually say that as a definite without seeing it but just making you aware of a possibility of it being wrong.
These home made set ups are scary. I can see a number of safety issues.


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## OzPaleAle (22/12/13)

I don't follow, 100A never passes through the meter, it inducts a small current into that inductor thats around the active input wire to the controller that the meter measures and outputs a reading relative to that.

Edit: Might be worth putting an earth wire that attaches from the door to your incoming earth so you are not relying on the door hinge to ground it if it became live.


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## Vanoontour (22/12/13)

Glot said:


> Bet it goes bang. Stop and think. The max current rating of the amp meter is 100 amps. Do those terminals look like they are rated for 100 amps? Nope. You should have a current transformer that actually connects to those terminals and one of the current carrying conductors goes through the transformer ( the small brown coil thing with two wires off it). Some of these meters have one built onto the board and some have a separate one. I cannot actually say that as a definite without seeing it but just making you aware of a possibility of it being wrong.
> These home made set ups are scary. I can see a number of safety issues.


Bet it doesn't!! Current rating and indicating capacity are two very different and separate things (as I suspect you are aware of given your signature block). You are correct, there is nothing at all on the amp meter board that could handle 100 amps. But as a gauge to indicate it is fine. And if you can see anything wrong then please speak up as this is what the whole thread/forums are for. Not for cryptic guess work.

On a separate note, this is going to be fully check by a sparky and if there are any problems they will be rectified before first use. And yes the door will be earthed, I have a spare on the earth bar just for it.


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## OzPaleAle (22/12/13)

Nice one, look forward to seeing the beast up and running. :beerbang:


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## Vanoontour (24/12/13)

Well....after it having it checked over the switch was thrown and the box came to life. Shock horror the amp meter didn't go bang h34r: . The programmable PID however is faulty, continued input error after swapping out the sensor with a new one that proved to work. Swapped the cable connecting them, swapped the internal wiring too. After some emails to Auber I was given some more fault finding stuff to do which didn't work so it was decided to return it for a replacement. 

Guess its back to old faithful for the xmas brewing. Was planning do use the box for a step mashed beliner weisse with a sour mash.... Oh well, guess it can wait.


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## Vanoontour (11/1/14)

Righto. I got another PID from Auber (can't fault there service at all. They have been fantastic) but it would appear the NAND gate idea is not working yet as advertised to control the power supply to the HLT or HERMs so I dont exceed my 15A supply. For those that are geeky feel free to have a look at the attach spreadsheet which will give you the readings when faultfinding but this is now beyond me so I have started doing some further research. I have since found a normally closed, SSR DC output relay that appears to do the same job for $40 delivered from RS components (http://www.crydom.com/en/Products/Catalog/d_c60.pdf) any reasons why this would do the same thing?
View attachment nandlogic.xls


Cheers all, Dan


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## dblunn (8/3/14)

Bump
Have you sorted your cct yet?


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## Vanoontour (17/3/14)

Yeah shes all up and running. Just need some process refinement and I'm away.


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## kjparker (8/4/14)

Did you end up going with the NAND gate or the NC relay?

Got any pics of how it ended up?


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## Mr B (25/8/14)

Bump

Interested in how this one turned out if you have an update

Cheers


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