# Ipa, apa, mash temp for marris otter pale ale?



## droid (7/1/15)

hello all

This is my second sack of MO and AG brewing - Just wondering what temp pale ale freaks are doing the MO at? Really want to start nutting out some standard procedures / practices for pale ale and MO is going to be my base till I get it consistently right
i can do a step but my setup is the cooler with manifold so a single is easy

My best so far was warmish? at 67 degrees for 90 and everything else has been lower temp

5% weyerman crystal

cheers
Jon


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## mckenry (7/1/15)

The brand of grain doesnt determine whats best as far as mash temp goes. The difference between types of grain is in the flavour. An IPA can be either American (AIPA) or traditional English, simply IPA. APA is American Pale Ale.
They are all medium light to medium in mouthfeel, requiring about 65°C mash as the main rest.
English IPA uses hops like EKG and fuggles (not limited to) whereas the Americans use 'C' hops. Plenty of them.

Having said that, Marris Otter is an English barley, so you may like to try an English IPA first. It wont really matter, but its something to consider if getting all nazi-like about guidelines.


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## Blind Dog (7/1/15)

Agree with McHenty; there isn't really an ideal mash temp for any grain. If you haven't, read the section in John Palmers 'how to brew' book about mashing or better yet Gordon Strong's 'how to brew better beer'. It's the beer you're trying to brew that really determines your mash schedule rather than the base grain


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## droid (7/1/15)

thanks guys

I have John Palmers book and am reading "defining the mash" at the mo

citra based pale ales, west coast IPA styles but with a bit less abv is what I am working on

cheers


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## manticle (7/1/15)

I'm not big on the west coast style but the ones I've tried have been on the drier side. I'd suggest 67 is too hot for that style.

I step mash most beers and prefer a good malty hit for most beers but during summer/hot weather, I like to mash my apas around 63-64.
Maris is a great base for apa.


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## droid (7/1/15)

ok, yep good stuff, so do you do a 20 minute ~ 40 deg rest as part of that? is it worth "doughing in" ?


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## manticle (7/1/15)

No 40 deg rest.

My typical schedule is a short rest at 55 (5 minutes) then up to saccharification temperature. Usually I divide that into 2 - one for beta amylase (low 60s for 10-20 minutes, depending on beer style) and one for alpha amylase (very high 60s) for around 40-50 minutes.

I then move to 72 for a glycoprotein rest ( 10 minutes - good for head formation and retention) then mash out at 78.


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## droid (7/1/15)

I could do that but I would have to pour it out of my hlt and into the mash tun after for sparging - that wouldn't be good would it?


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## manticle (7/1/15)

Not sure what you mean. Do you mean you can direct heat the HLT but not the tun? Not impossible but sounds like a pain in the bum. If you do do this, I'd recommend scooping rather than pouring the mash.

You can also calculate hot water infusions to step mash. However for the sake of ease, I'd just pick a single number in the 60s depending on intended results. If you like your west coasts dry then aim for 63-64.


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## Blind Dog (7/1/15)

Unless you can step mash fairly easily (and it sounds like you can't) I'd keep to a single infusion mash and maybe try to do a mash out at 78. 

Low 60s for dry, high 60s to add body. As I like some malt, I generally tend to the high side, but also find that a single infusion mash at 63 with a mash out and then 2L of the wort hard boiled to 200ml or so adds the flavour whilst keeping the beer dry.


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## droid (7/1/15)

manticle said:


> Not sure what you mean. Do you mean you can direct heat the HLT but not the tun? Not impossible but sounds like a pain in the bum. If you do do this, I'd recommend scooping rather than pouring the mash.
> 
> You can also calculate hot water infusions to step mash. However for the sake of ease, I'd just pick a single number in the 60s depending on intended results. If you like your west coasts dry then aim for 63-64.


yep, my hlt is a fowlers vacola (exposed element) unit that I can temp control
the mash tun is just the round cooler type with the manifold and a sparging unit under the lid

thanks for the info I will try and hold it in that range though it will drop a bit over the mash time

good info cheers


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## droid (7/1/15)

Blind Dog said:


> Unless you can step mash fairly easily (and it sounds like you can't) I'd keep to a single infusion mash and maybe try to do a mash out at 78.
> 
> Low 60s for dry, high 60s to add body. As I like some malt, I generally tend to the high side, but also find that a single infusion mash at 63 with a mash out and then 2L of the wort hard boiled to 200ml or so adds the flavour whilst keeping the beer dry.


excellent stuff


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## droid (7/1/15)

dry or malty that is the question, I might sit on the fence at 65


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## JasonP (7/1/15)

manticle said:


> No 40 deg rest.My typical schedule is a short rest at 55 (5 minutes) then up to saccharification temperature. Usually I divide that into 2 - one for beta amylase (low 60s for 10-20 minutes, depending on beer style) and one for alpha amylase (very high 60s) for around 40-50 minutes.I then move to 72 for a glycoprotein rest ( 10 minutes - good for head formation and retention) then mash out at 78.


Have you ever done an iodine test after your 20min beta amylase rest?


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## manticle (7/1/15)

Never been in the habit of doing iodine tests. I only ever do 20 for something I want really dry like a saison. Usually it's 10-15 then straight up to 68/69.
It's still close to a 60 min mash and that's not including ramp times so I doubt there's unconverted starch. Same efficiency results as when I used to do single infusion. Same fg range as well but I prefer the end results bodywise.


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## JasonP (7/1/15)

I'm curious to know if all starch is converted after the beta rest meaning alpha rest pointless. Especially for 50mins. Not having a go just curious.


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## manticle (7/1/15)

Most often the rest is 10 for that very reason. Been a bit curious myself.
Also been considering trying much shorter alpha since alpha works much quicker.

While 20 is rare for me, I can tell you unscientifically that 10-15 + alpha is a different (richer/fuller) mouthfeel to 60 at a single temp. Attenuation is similar though.

Might try a couple for curiousity sake when I get some time off. Starch test and comparative brews with longer and shorter alpha.


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## jonnir (7/1/15)

For people who do these step mashes. Could you tell me, have you noticed a signifcant difference in your beers since changing from single infusion to step? Would be good to know

Cheers


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## manticle (7/1/15)

Yes. More later. Sorry for brevity but very noticeable.


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## antiphile (7/1/15)

Like quite a few others here (from my reading of it), I tend not to use MO as the major grain in my grists for English IPA's. That style I tend to have more than 50% of the grist made with pale or similar and mash above 66C. For English Bitters etc, Maris Otter is a favourite and I tend to do the main mash at about 65C or below (commonly at about 63). But I'm sure it's all personal preference.

Good luck with it; I'm sure it will be a lovely result.


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## JasonP (7/1/15)

manticle said:


> Most often the rest is 10 for that very reason. Been a bit curious myself.
> Also been considering trying much shorter alpha since alpha works much quicker.
> While 20 is rare for me, I can tell you unscientifically that 10-15 + alpha is a different (richer/fuller) mouthfeel to 60 at a single temp. Attenuation is similar though.
> Might try a couple for curiousity sake when I get some time off. Starch test and comparative brews with longer and shorter alpha.


Yeah, I dare say a lot of alpha activity will be occurring at your beta rest and probably only needs a short 5min rest around 70 to finish off what starch hasn't already converted.


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## manticle (7/1/15)

Interesting and I might give it a whirl but you're suggesting a potential 15 min total mash. I'm not convinced.


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## JasonP (7/1/15)

If conditions are right 20min saccharification time should be all you need.


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## manticle (7/1/15)

Big if in my brewery (conditions being right).
Shortest for me is 30 min alpa rest in my milds (70 deg).
Interested in mucking about to get some real world results though.


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## technobabble66 (7/1/15)

jonnir said:


> For people who do these step mashes. Could you tell me, have you noticed a signifcant difference in your beers since changing from single infusion to step? Would be good to know
> 
> Cheers


Short answer: Yes

I've made a few changes over the last year, including a focus on step mashing, so it's a little hard to claim that all my improvements would be from step mashing alone. However, i believe the main things i get from step mashing would be
1) finer lacing and better & tighter head retention,
2) a finer/better body (eg: dry, but full body)

Fwiw, i've been using the 55°C, 72°C and 78°C steps, plus the main conversion step(s) between 62-68°C.


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## mje1980 (8/1/15)

I'm a step mash convert myself. I do longer rests in the low 60's, as I like drier beers. I've done 90min mashes at low 60's for mega swill lagers and saisons. Mostly for very low finishing gravity and very light body. 


It gives you control over body and attenuation.


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## Blind Dog (8/1/15)

technobabble66 said:


> Short answer: Yes
> 
> I've made a few changes over the last year, including a focus on step mashing, so it's a little hard to claim that all my improvements would be from step mashing alone. However, i believe the main things i get from step mashing would be
> 1) finer lacing and better & tighter head retention,
> ...


Ditto (same mash profile, usually, and same results)


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## Blind Dog (8/1/15)

I've also found that an extended mash out improves efficiency, usually by 3 to 5 points, sometimes more


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