# First Cider, Mead, Something?



## dylan.temple (6/10/11)

Hey guys and gals, looking to use all my extra kit yeasts so though I would experiment with a cider as I have a fermenter free and the weather is nice and warm. Not too phased about making an amazing drink, probably looking at making something with a decent hit of alcohol so if it does taste bad I can try and mask it with some lemonade and it will still have a good hit of alcohol.
What I'm thinking at the moment, is:

4L Apple juice
4L Apple and Pear juice
1kg Homebrand honey
500gms Dextrose
2 yeast packets (why not I have a handful lying round, unless this is not ideal)

So the main questions would be alcohol level, is there a program which could tell me this, or from your guys experience a ball park figure would be great. Will this ferment to being extremely dry or will the pear juice help with its 'unfermentable' sugars. And is 2 packets of yeast a good idea seeing cost isn't a factor.

Also I'll be kegging this so when it come to this I'm wondering how much sugar to add to the keg for sweetening as the fridge is kept around 2 degrees so I'm assuming this will stop the yeast in it's tracks.

Finally approximation on fermentation time, would love to hear a week or less

And actually finally, would I add gelatine to clear it the same as beer (add it when I am transferring to keg)


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## barls (6/10/11)

made to what final volume?????
i think your yeast will crap out before it reaches fg especially if thats the final volume.
it looks like a cyser (mead cider cross)


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## dylan.temple (6/10/11)

barls said:


> made to what final volume?????
> i think your yeast will crap out before it reaches fg especially if thats the final volume.
> it looks like a cyser (mead cider cross)



Ahh I see was going to just make it like that. I suppose alcohol content I'm looking for is 8% might have got a bit excited with the 500gms of sugar considering I have the kilo of honey already


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## pk.sax (6/10/11)

My bottle of apple juice says 11g/100 ml of sugar.

From experience, its 100% fermentable.

Apple & Pear, prolly 90% or so... guesstimating.

Dextrose = 100%

Honey.. well... dunno, someone may be able to tell, lets for argument say - 75%

So, you have a volume of 4+4+1 = 9L

Sugar = (11 X 10 X 4) + (11 X 10 X 4) X 0.9 + 1 X 0.75 + 500 grams = 2086 grams in roughly 9ish Litres of juice/must.

Thats ~1.231 SG

mad much?! 30 odd % cyser :huh:

lol


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## dylan.temple (6/10/11)

practicalfool said:


> My bottle of apple juice says 11g/100 ml of sugar.
> 
> From experience, its 100% fermentable.
> 
> ...



haha alrigt will if i want an 8-9% how would i achieve this, fill up with how much water, (sorry for some reason I didn't consider water as an option to fill up on, just silly on my part) But then the main queries are will kit yeast be proficient and length of fermentation? Thanks


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## pk.sax (6/10/11)

mr. magoo said:


> haha alrigt will if i want an 8-9% how would i achieve this, fill up with how much water, (sorry for some reason I didn't consider water as an option to fill up on, just silly on my part) But then the main queries are will kit yeast be proficient and length of fermentation? Thanks


juice on its own will give u ~4.5-5% Cider.

Adding the honey, 1 Kg... say, add ~2 L of water to dissolve that honey. Without crunching numbers, thats ~10ish L of must. Should ferment good 

n yea, that kit yeast should be OK. If in doubt, get some white wine/champagne yeast. Those beasts can rip through/finish off any ferment.

I might try this sorta thing sometime soon too.... cider has run dry here


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## barls (6/10/11)

as an idea, my cyser is pretty much the 9L recipe above without the dextrose and its near 14% with champagne yeast.
your going to want about 16L volume roughly. id make it up to about 14L then dilute at the end if you need it to be lower. your aiming for a starting gravity of about 1.070-80


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## Airgead (7/10/11)

+1 to all the above with the additional comment that if you are going to aim at anything 8% or higher, you may well want to abandon the idea of using those kit yeasts and use a good wine yeast. The kit yeasts will most likely be an ale strain that tops out at around 8ish percent so you may end up with something too sweet.

Cheers
Dave


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## KudaPucat (7/10/11)

juice is usually 1.040 or so
honey is 1.400 or so

so 8 litres of juice will weigh 1.040*8
1 kg of honey = 1kg so 8.320+1 = 9.320kg

1/1.4 = 0.714 litres
so 8.714 litres

sg = kg/litre 
so 9.32/8.714 = 1.070

thus you can expect maximum alcohol of 0.070 * 135 = 9.4%

Honey is 100% fermentable, it has a mixture of sugars, but mostly glucose fructose sucrose.
Pear juice is not so fermentable, so expect some residual sugars, I have NFI how much the sorbitol in the apples and pears would remain as residual non-fermentable sugars

this site
http://www.fruit-processing.com/docs/Fruit...07_No.6_348.pdf
has an informative table showing what fruits have sorbitol...
It left off prunes interestingly which have more than pear but less than chockberries, which are just packed full!


I'd ferment until it reaches half a point above where you want it to finish, then whack it in your keg fridge until it clears, keg , age a month or so and serve. That'd be the quickest.
You oculd ferment it out and backsweeten, but this takes longer to assimilate when aging and also clouds it up anyway, so you'd have to sit it in the fridge until it clears either way.


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## pk.sax (7/10/11)

I should not attempt maths while drunk.


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## pk.sax (10/10/11)

I laid one down this weekend. ~225 g rainforest honey, 1.7ish Lt LL apole juice, a good splash of nudie apple juice and some hot water to dissolve the honey. 3.5 L all up.

Bubbling through the solution madly in my square 3.5L fermenter 

I'm thinking of dropping in a few cut in half grapes later to add some tannin and simple sugar. All done with wine yeast.


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## KudaPucat (10/10/11)

OG?
Grapes are useless, they will only add a little sugar... no taste and negligible tannin, especially if you're using table grapes.
Just let her go, she'll be fine. She will ferment dry however unless you put the yeasties to sleep with a cold crash.
For a cyser like this, I'd suggest stopping it at 1.015.. this way it will have enough sugar to mask it's age and any minor imperfections. Really good for a quick drinker @ 2 months.
Letting her run dry, she'll need a year or so to recover. Your call though.


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## pk.sax (10/10/11)

Didn't measure OG :S can't even accurately guess as I didn't measure the warm water.

Sigh. Afterthought. Well, ... If I do cold crash it, I'd have to somehow store it cold forever! Not possible atm. A year you suggest... What other alternative do I have? Can I get any sort of acids to add before secondary or even in the bottle (peels of anything?! We can get some pretty weird fruits up north). I'm game to wait a while if that will make it shine though. Can't add much to the fermenter right now as it's up to the neck full.


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## KudaPucat (12/10/11)

practicalfool said:


> Didn't measure OG :S can't even accurately guess as I didn't measure the warm water.
> 
> Sigh. Afterthought. Well, ... If I do cold crash it, I'd have to somehow store it cold forever! Not possible atm. A year you suggest... What other alternative do I have? Can I get any sort of acids to add before secondary or even in the bottle (peels of anything?! We can get some pretty weird fruits up north). I'm game to wait a while if that will make it shine though. Can't add much to the fermenter right now as it's up to the neck full.



Cold crash, then add k-sorbate and k-meta this will stabilise. If you use the recomended dose, you wont be able to taste it and it will put the yeast to sleep as well as stop them multiplying. This will give you 95% certainty that the yeast will be inactive and you wont get bottle bombs.
Now you don't need to keep it in the fridge.
Cold crashing does take a few days though.

My guess is this is SG=1.038 so treat it like a pure cidre. I doubt many of the mead rules with aging will count so much... it'll probably be drinkable earlier due to the low ABV, but the aromas wont come until 12 months minimum.

FYI SG = kg/litre

Litres
1.7 juice
0.161 honey (0.225/1.4)
1.64 water (3.5 - 1.7 - 0.161)
3.5 total

kg
1.768 juice (1.7*1.040)
0.225 honey
1.64 water (1.64*1.000)
3.633 total

SG = 3.633/3.5 = 1.038

This is only a guesstimate, based on average gravities, but it's not bad, especially for planning.


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## pk.sax (12/10/11)

Hmnnnnn, so that'd be around 1.040-1.042 considering some of that top up water was cloudy nudie juice.

Treat like a cider then it is. I'm not that keen on chemically killing the yeast, suppose I'll just let it go to dry, carbonate vey low by adding a bit of fresh juice to each and ten backsweeten in glass as/if required. As you say, the honey flavours are not likely to come across in a hurry (i.e., the flavours from the yeast eating the honey and those flavours developing with time?!)
Looks like I'll get 6x Hal liters out of this, defo will leave three to age, one for the 6 month mark and 2 for the 1 year.


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## KudaPucat (12/10/11)

practicalfool said:


> Hmnnnnn, so that'd be around 1.040-1.042 considering some of that top up water was cloudy nudie juice.
> 
> Treat like a cider then it is. I'm not that keen on chemically killing the yeast, suppose I'll just let it go to dry, carbonate vey low by adding a bit of fresh juice to each and ten backsweeten in glass as/if required. As you say, the honey flavours are not likely to come across in a hurry (i.e., the flavours from the yeast eating the honey and those flavours developing with time?!)
> Looks like I'll get 6x Hal liters out of this, defo will leave three to age, one for the 6 month mark and 2 for the 1 year.



When the yeast eat honey, the flavour is devoured. However magically at about the 12 month mark, the aroma and flavour of raw honey returns. The reasoning is pure alchemy atm, nobody's done the research.
I imagine the beautiful apple aroma of fresh juiced apples that you get in some cidres may well be the same, it comes from aging.
As for chemically stabilising - most wines are full of k-meta, it's used very early on in the process, some have HEAPS, but most have at least 20ppm upon bottling. I don't like it because I have to buy chemicals, but theologically, I have no issue with it. Many yeasts actually produce sulphites naturally.


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## pk.sax (12/10/11)

Yea, I get some sulphur from cider always. Nothing moral/religious or whatever about chemicals, just a whim to not bother. Basically, if it can survive without needing chems added to it, I can leave bottles lying about. Also kinda why I don't bottle my sweet cider, potential to go off.


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## dylan.temple (19/11/11)

So I made it and I'm having one right now and I must say I'm quite impressed. Reciped I ended up with was 9L of Apple Juice, 1kg of Honey, 10L of water and then just added dextrose til I got a reading of 1.050 (appros 500gms i think)
It would be nicer with a thicker body, but the apple flavour is quite pronounced and it is verrryyy easy to drink, bit dangerous. However I have kegged it and made it carbonated which reduces that ease a bit. I also tipped in 200gm's of sugar when i put it into the keg and it went straight into the fridge so the yeast wouldn't be active, first couple of drinks were sickly sweet for my liking but i balanced them out with lemon, however after that it seems to be a good amount with no adjustment, a soft sweetness which I quite like. 
Also when brewing, I used a brewing fridge to keep it at 19 degrees and I used 2 of my spare beer kit yeast sachets which wouldn't have been used otherwise (fermented out to 1.015)
Anyway just thought I'd write this out to help anyone looking to make a cider and wants a safe recipe, won't blow your mind but is a nice drink especially on a hot day.


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## pk.sax (21/11/11)

Oh my!!!

That was one interesting drink.

Smooth... smooth as it can get. Really appley flavour in the first little bit on the sip. Honey smoothness and some soirt of silkiness follows and lingers. The bottle was flat due to a poor cap on this one, but I loved it flat! I could make love to it flat :lol:


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