# Boil Times 60-90 Minutes.



## Truman42 (14/6/12)

In the past Ive always done a 90 minute boil. 

I've been reading up on boil times and how an increased boil time will help with melanoidon development, caramelization of wort etc which suits maltier styles.
So is there an advantage in decreasing boil times to 60 mins for pale ales etc and only doing a 90 min boil for malt driven beers. Does anyone follow this in their brewing?


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## drew9242 (14/6/12)

I do all 90 min boils because i hate the taste of DMS. I had 2 batchs with DMS and then started doing 90 min boils. I havnt had the problem again yet (touch wood).


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (14/6/12)

I do occasionally do 60 minute boils, but generally 90 minutes - mainly due to the limitations in my system - by the time I'm up to boil, I'm having to add more sparge runnings (after the initial sparge) and I end up caramelising.

If I'm not doing much sparging, them it's a 60 minute boil for me.

I do find the 90 minute boils end up with darker beers than I (or brewmate) expect.


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## QldKev (14/6/12)

I would say it depends on your boil off rates. I like to boil hard, but only do so for 60mins to get about 12% boil off rate.

QldKev


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## beerdrinkingbob (14/6/12)

Unless using pilsner malt I've always boiled for 75, so somewhere in between. This is so the wort can have a good hard boil to ensure all the break has formed before i add the hops. 

Lately I've been adding my bittering hops at 40 minutes, so have dialed it back to 60.

Cheers 

BDB


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## PhantomEasey (14/6/12)

As I'm currently brewing over-gravity in a 20L BIAB urn, I use a 90min boil to allow for spargings to be periodically added to the boil throughout the first 60 mins or so. Without the 'additional' 30 minutes of boil time, my efficiency drops a fair whack. Haven't had any DMS issues yet either, whether or not that's an added bonus or just plain luck is another debate entirely. 

Done it for pale ales the last 4 or 5 batches and my novice palate hasn't picked any over maltiness or darkening of the colour that may be attributed to melanoidin development or caramelisation.

Nothing a side-by-side double brewday can't investigate Truman - I'm happy to help with the testing


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## HoppingMad (14/6/12)

Ripped from another forum, but I'm happy to plagiarise when they can express it better than me  



> A 90 minute boil time is usually only done where there is Pilsner malt in the grainbill. It's done to drive off DMS precursors, which can cause a cooked corn flavor/aroma in beers. Longer boils are also done in big beers to concentrate the wort to drive up the gravity. They also could be done for hop utilization in really bitter beers.



That pretty much sums it up I reckon. One thing I'd add is 'when there is a large percentage of Pilsener malt in the grainbill'.

Hopper.


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## Nick JD (14/6/12)

If I boil for 90 minutes I virtually make malt extract. Only ever 60 minutes, Pils malt or no. If I boil on FULL I get 20%+ loss in 60 minutes and I'm already boiling 1.060+ for all beers. Melanoidins? Youbetchya.

No DMS, although I still wonder about the floor malted Boh Pils "baby corn" taste - never got that using any other grain and 25% evap didn't eliminate it. I don't use the FM stuff anymore.


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## stux (14/6/12)

Baby corn from floor malted Bo pils sounds like text book DME to me

Only time I get had DMS was in a starter and it smelled just like canned corn kernels


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## Nick JD (14/6/12)

Stux said:


> Baby corn from floor malted Bo pils sounds like text book DME to me
> 
> Only time I get had DMS was in a starter and it smelled just like canned corn kernels



I don't think it is - mainly because I know what DMS tastes like, and it doesn't taste like DMS. Tastes like the smell of husking a just-picked cob.

Regardless, I don't buy FM Boh Pils anymore. I'd prefer not to have it in my lagers, and the normal Boh Pils grain doesn't have it.

90 minutes boiling and 30% evap didn't get rid of it. Changing to normal Boh Pils did.


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## Bada Bing Brewery (14/6/12)

I have 50c each way. 75 min boils for everything.
Cheers
BBB


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## Bribie G (14/6/12)

Occasionally I've forgotten to set the timer, got engrossed in something and totally lost the plot or even crashed in front of the TV - fortunately I don't have pets or small children around - ( a few Midnight Trains don't help either) and had to guess at the current stage of boil, and later calculate that I'd only given it say 45 minutes. Beer has turned out fine and well hopped.


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## 1974Alby (14/6/12)

I have run out of gas at 40 minutes before...beer turned out awesome!..I still generally try and boil for 60 and have been told to boil for 90m with Maris Otter which I do if using that grain...but Im no longer too meticulous about it after my 40 minute success.


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## DJR (14/6/12)

I got DMS from a bag of Best Pils which made me switch to a 90 min boil when using that malt... still didn't help! So i just don't use Best Pils anymore, JW pils all the way (very low DMS-p for a Pils malt). I do a 65 min boil - get it to boil, wait 5 mins then add the 60 min hops.


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## MHB (14/6/12)

Among the usually listed reasons for wort boiling is one that doesnt get enough attention; that is the removal of High Molecular Weight Protein and Tannins.
The longer you boil the less of these materials end up in your beer and the better your beer is for their removal.
This from the IBD training information is a good read. View attachment 02___The_function_of_wort_boiling1_1_.pdf

Note the table at the bottom of the last page that shows the measured amount of remaining protein by molecular weight.
As discussed in another thread recently, getting most of the break material out of the wort before adding the hops should give you better utilisation or bang for your buck.
As is most things brewing there are pros and cons, longer boils use more energy but improve the beer (generally) any decision will be a compromise, just have to find the balance point you are happy with.
Mark

Fat finger edit


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## drsmurto (14/6/12)

Nick JD said:


> I don't think it is - mainly because I know what DMS tastes like, and it doesn't taste like DMS. Tastes like the smell of husking a just-picked cob.
> 
> Regardless, I don't buy FM Boh Pils anymore. I'd prefer not to have it in my lagers, and the normal Boh Pils grain doesn't have it.
> 
> 90 minutes boiling and 30% evap didn't get rid of it. Changing to normal Boh Pils did.



What does DMS taste like?

The concentration of a compound changes the perception so whilst at high levels DMS is perceived as corn (fresh, canned, baby) at lower levels it has a more asparagus, cooked cabbage/vegetable flavour/aroma. The threshold for DMS is ~25-30ug/L. At lower levels DMS can actually be beneficial, more so in wine but could also in hop driven beers where the DMS combines with the hop aromatics in a synergistic effect (this hasn't been researched in beer to my knowledge). It's part of certain euro lager styles as well. 

DMS can also be formed by the yeast during fermentation, something boil length/vigour has less of an effect on. I wouldn't always be pointing the finger at the grain. 

On topic - I boil for 90 mins minimum. I do this for a few reasons. Firstly, it gives me time to get a good hot break by boiling hard for 30 mins prior to adding the 60 min hop addition. This reduces the amount of proteinaceous material in the wort which as it flocculates also binds hop components. In my experience this also has a positive effect on the final clarity of my beer and well as the head formation/retention. Another reason is that a longer boil volume means i need a larger boil volume which means i sparge more which means i get more of the sugars out of my wort and increase the efficiency. 

I do this for all beer regardless of the grain bill. 

Big beers (barleywine, imperial stout/IPA) get 120 min boils but that then is more due to higher degrees of caramelisation/maillard reactions (flavour development) and further increasing the sparging to increase efficiency.


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## mje1980 (14/6/12)

90 mins for everything, FTW. Use best pils with no issues. I find the beers clear up a little better. If pushed for time I might do 75, but rarely happens.


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## hsb (14/6/12)

Same here, 90 minutes for everything minimum. Makes for consistent platform for comparison, and 30 minutes is nothing in 'brewing time.'
I think it works out at something around 40L to end up with 25 odd litres. (I aim to get starter wort too)
I boil hard to hit a nice big foamy hot break, then down to a rolling boil. I'd never considered caramelisation, is it a factor in a 40L pot of sugary water?


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## Amber Fluid (14/6/12)

Some interesting answers.

I usually boil for 60 minutes and have never had a problem. I have done a few 90 minute boils but personally I can't tell the difference.


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## mckenry (14/6/12)

Just to throw my 2c in.
I boil for 75, just to split the difference. Hard for 15 mins for break, then add the 60 mins hops if recipe requires it.
If my first hops are 45 mins, then I still boil for 75, just that the first 30 mins has no additions.
100% of my beers are JW pils as base and I dont get DMS. If I do I dont know what it tastes like... :lol:


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## mikec (14/6/12)

Boiling? Waste of time. You're all doing it the hard way.

Straight from mash tun to fermenter, add yeast and dry hop.

So simple.

Volume calculations are easy - no boil-off.
No messing about with hot wort.
No caramelisation.
Saves heaps of time. I can knock out 8 to 10 brews in a day.

Tastes fine to me. Even better than VB down the pub.


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## Fourstar (14/6/12)

Based on the amount of SMM precursor residual in most modern day malts, the DMS produced and driven off in the boil and fermentation you will find in most instances the residual DMS is just shy of the average sniffers threshold. 

Based on this, majority of worts will suffice with a 60 minute boil. Taking it to 90 minutes you are lucky to move the reduction of the DMS level in your finished product by another 1% (IIRC). Lightly kilned malts (this does not include pale ale/lager malts) and closely followed with under-modification are more likely to have a higher SMM precursor count.

When would you really want to do a 90 min boil? Uber light pilsner malts and malts with higher protein levels or SMM precursor such as 6 Row malt. IMO these are the only times you should typically be concerned with residual DMS and the potential for it to be higher than threshold levels. Oh and using Polenta.  

With that extra 30 mins you're wasting your time/energy if your beers don't exhibit DMS after 60 min boils (with or without rapid chilling). By boiling your wort for 90 minutes you're not only converting/driving off SMM/DMS but you're causing other critical changes to your wort as well. Increasing the malliard reaction in your light delicate pilsners by 33% for example. Food for thought.

After reading Mr Fix, I'm more inclined to believe most peoples perception of DMS in their beers is likely to be from infections over SMM/DMS conversion. Especially given our wort colling rates compared with that of commercial volumes.


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## hsb (14/6/12)

You're disregarding MHB's informative post on the other reasons for boiling wort from Page 1 of this thread.
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=923464

Classic HB 6 to 1 half a dozen to the other debate really. (is there any other?)


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## drsmurto (14/6/12)

Fourstar said:


> <SNIP>
> 
> After reading Mr Fix, I'm more inclined to believe most peoples perception of DMS in their beers is likely to be from infections over SMM/DMS conversion. Especially given our wort colling rates compared with that of commercial volumes.



As you point out, SMM from the grain is unlikely to be the source of DMS in finished beer.

Rather than an infection, in my opinion, it is likely due to a unhealthy yeast population. 

Yeast (s. cerevisiae) convert sulphate, via the sulphate reduction pathway, to sulphite, through to sulphide which is then converted into the sulphur containing amino acids, cysteine and methionine. S-adenosylmethionine (SAM) is capable of methylating the methione (with the assistance of a methyltransferase enzyme) to produce.... wait for it.... S-methylmethionine.

When everything is 'normal' the cysteine and methionine is metabolised by the yeast. It's only when the yeast is stressed by something that the regular pathways change.


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## Nick JD (14/6/12)

When the experts disagree we can be sure that it's not a very cut and dried subject.

In times like these I prefer to listen to my own results - I only get "corny" flavours from one base malt. That's an easy fix. 

To all those contemplating shifting to 90 minute boils should wait till the experts have finished being right, and then continue doing what works for them.


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## MHB (14/6/12)

I think 4Star might be exaggerating a little with the 33%. Taking the pre and post boil colours for Weyermann Pilsner (3.5-5.5).View attachment 55213

Given that that is measured over a two hour boil and that colour development is fairly linear, gives 4.5 and 5.0 EBC for 60 and 90 minute boils respectively; so 10% more colour development is more like the answer. The trade off being less protein to be removed in lagering and less polyphenols that can really stand out in a delicate beer
There isnt a right answer, for fun some time look at the recipe for Kindl Weisse a 15 minute boil doesnt seem adequate but in this beer it works.
Mark


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## hamstringsally (14/6/12)

Im about to put down a pale ale this weekend with a volume of 125l. its the second time im going to run the bigger system and always done a 60 min boil with my smaller system. My OG reading was low on my last bigger brew so was going to boil for 90 min this weekend to bring to OG up. so its good to see what everyone has to say!


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## Fourstar (14/6/12)

hsb said:


> You're disregarding MHB's informative post on the other reasons for boiling wort from Page 1 of this thread.
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=923464
> 
> Classic HB 6 to 1 half a dozen to the other debate really. (is there any other?)



Im not disregarding anything regarding MHB's post. I agree entirely with all of his statements so far. I was covering an angle for boiling 90 minutes purely to reduce DMS and not taking into account any other variables (as majority of homebrewers get told boil for 90 mins to reduce DMS and they go ahead and blindly do it.) If you are boiling for 90 mins just to reduce DMS, in majority of situations you're wasting your time. If you are doing it to reduce DMS and take advantage if things as suggested by MHB, thats great! Just as long as you account for any drawbacks assoicated with boiling for 90 minutes of course.




MHB said:


> I think 4Star might be exaggerating a little with the 33%. Taking the pre and post boil colours for Weyermann Pilsner (3.5-5.5).View attachment 55213



Indeed i was.  All things considered we would be assuming a correct wort pH as well. As we know, an increase in wort pH (e.g. high carbonate water profile leading to high boil pH, more so igorant carbonate additions to the kettle) we could see significant colour increase based over that 30 min period.



DrSmurto said:


> As you point out, SMM from the grain is unlikely to be the source of DMS in finished beer.
> Rather than an infection, in my opinion, it is likely due to a unhealthy yeast population.
> 
> <science drabble that most dont understand>



Exacta-mundo! ^_^


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## manticle (14/6/12)

75-90, sometimes a bit longer but the boil with added hops is only ever 60.

Stux - I know the fresh corn (fresh uncooked corn) flavour Nick is talking about with the wey floor malted pils and I have tasted the exact same flavour in two other beers that both used mostly/all the wey FM pils.

Somewhere in Principles of Brewing Science, Fix talks about different melanoidens (not all have the same flavour) and relates a fresh, uncooked corn flavour to one of those (and distinguishes it from sulphur compounds and their resultant flavours).


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## Rowy (14/6/12)

manticle said:


> 75-90, sometimes a bit longer but the boil with added hops is only ever 60.
> 
> Stux - I know the fresh corn (fresh uncooked corn) flavour Nick is talking about with the wey floor malted pils and I have tasted the exact same flavour in two other beers that both used mostly/all the wey FM pils.
> 
> Somewhere in Principles of Brewing Science, Fix talks about different melanoidens (not all have the same flavour) and relates a fresh, uncooked corn flavour to one of those (and distinguishes it from sulphur compounds and their resultant flavours).



And there speaketh the Oracle :icon_cheers:


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## MHB (14/6/12)

I have said it before but it bears repeating Everything you do affects the beer
In no way am I disagreeing with either DrS or 4Star, there isnt a right answer to the question how long should everyone boil their beer. In various beers I boil from 15 to 180 minutes and in each case based on the beer I am brewing the answer will be right for that beer.
Conversely there are lots of wrong answers in brewing trying to make Lager in high carbonate water might just fall into that category, adding carbonate to the kettle definitely would.
Mark


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## Thirsty Boy (14/6/12)

Whichever you choose - you're going to make your life easier if you just take one boil time and stick to it. You will know when things arre going normally, when things are going wrong and genally eliminate a variable from your brew day.

I choose 90min boils - because it works with my process, because of the hop/break interaction thats been mentioned a few times already, because i want excellent break formation and because of DMS. If DMS from malt can be a problem, a 90min boil will likely fix it and a 60min boil might not (especially if you are no-chilling)... so i choose 90.

Downsides?? Minimal. You use more energy and it takes 30min longer. It makes your beer darker, a teeny tiny little bit darker. I've made a number of pilsners that were boiled for 120mins and then no-chilled. They were still easily inside the colour range you'd expect from a pils. If you are desperate for a very light straw colured beer, OK, otherwise its pretty much a non issue. Pilsner Urquell does a triple decoction and then boils for 120mins.... and its not exactly uncontrollably dark.

Decide what seems right for you, your system and the way you like to brew. Make sure it works - then stick with it. The "downside" of either a 60 or a 90min boil is unlikely to be significant enough to warrant a change that will make your life harder than you'd like it to be.

TB


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## manticle (14/6/12)

Rowy said:


> And there speaketh the Oracle :icon_cheers:



Presumably you mean George Fix?


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## Rowy (14/6/12)

manticle said:


> Presumably you mean George Fix?




Your the Oracle Manticle


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## manticle (14/6/12)

Thanks but I'm just a bloke who reads a bit and brews a bit and craps on a lot about it all to anyone who will listen.

I get ideas from reading, test them, form an opinion. I'm a homebrewer with access to the internet.

There's others I'd be seeing as oracles long before me.

You can still buy me a pint when I'm up your way though*.

*Unless you're being sarcastic, in which case you can buy me 4 pints.


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## Rowy (14/6/12)

manticle said:


> Thanks but I'm just a bloke who reads a bit and brews a bit and craps on a lot about it all to anyone who will listen.
> 
> I get ideas from reading, test them, form an opinion. I'm a homebrewer with access to the internet.
> 
> ...



Not being sarcastic at all mate. Just value some of the advice you have given me and others.....be more than happy to shout you a pint or two if your ever up this way.


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## manticle (14/6/12)

I'll settle for two pints then.


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## rotten (14/6/12)

Big hugs  


I boil for 90 mins when using marris otter, otherwise I boil for 70ish until hot break has settled-boiled off. Great input earlier guys.


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## Nick JD (16/6/12)

manticle said:


> Stux - I know the fresh corn (fresh uncooked corn) flavour Nick is talking about with the wey floor malted pils and I have tasted the exact same flavour in two other beers that both used mostly/all the wey FM pils.
> 
> Somewhere in Principles of Brewing Science, Fix talks about different melanoidens (not all have the same flavour) and relates a fresh, uncooked corn flavour to one of those (and distinguishes it from sulphur compounds and their resultant flavours).



I've been tryng to tell the self-appointed "experts" this for ages. They always resort to "infection" calls. Axes to grind.


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## MHB (16/6/12)

No axe to grind, just Weyermann Floor Malted Pilsner is one of my favourite malts and I have no trouble with it.
Difference is Im not trying to blame the malt for my inability to make good beer with it. Being floor malted it requires different treatment both during mashing, boiling and to some extent during fermentation and post fermentation treatment.
Mark


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## Nick JD (16/6/12)

MHB said:


> Difference is I’m not trying to blame the malt for my inability to make good beer with it.



Well, what a freaking legend you are then, eh?  Thanks for proving my point. "Inability to make good beer" - now there's that axe again. How are you still in business with this holier than EVERYONE attitude?

How about letting the good folk at AHB know what tricks you employ to not get the character that Manticle and I get, rather than being a wanker about it and implying we are bad brewers?

Can you tell us what changes you make to absolutely every task between mashing and secondary to accomodate this grain and rid it of a very faint green husk flavour?


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## manticle (17/6/12)

MHB said:


> Weyermann Floor Malted Pilsner is one of my favourite malts and I have no trouble with it.



It's not trouble, it's just an interesting flavour I have only ever tasted in beers (made by three different brewers) using that malt and some reading suggests that not all corn flavours are DMS but may relate to other things including melanoidens. Said beers were all decocted at least twice.

I decoct a lot of beers so I'm certainly not 'blaming' that process for the flavour either - just wondering if melanoidens and a particular malt can contribute a certain flavour. If so, how and why AND how could you either encourage or discourage said flavour?

The flavour was actually quite pleasant (fresh, uncooked/just cooked sweet corn, not canned, creamed or overcooked).


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## bigfridge (17/6/12)

Nick JD said:


> Well, what a freaking legend you are then, eh?  Thanks for proving my point. "Inability to make good beer" - now there's that axe again. How are you still in business with this holier than EVERYONE attitude?
> 
> How about letting the good folk at AHB know what tricks you employ to not get the character that Manticle and I get, rather than being a wanker about it and implying we are bad brewers?
> 
> Can you tell us what changes you make to absolutely every task between mashing and secondary to accomodate this grain and rid it of a very faint green husk flavour?



Nick, 

I don't know what issues you have with Mark, or his advice - but it seems that everytime someone tries to point to an alternative possability you reply with personal attacks.

As others have said there is heaps of information available in the brewing textbooks and summarised in articles available on the internet. Mark's comment that caused you such anguish was that water profile was one factor. I would add that add that pH control, yeast nutrition (Calcium and Zinc) and controlling the boil to obtain the desired DMS levels are the first places to start.

You may find that there will be plenty of advice from people suggesting "what changes you make to absolutely every task between mashing and secondary" if you were to first describe how you currently brew these problem lagers. Seems unfair that you expect Mark to do this for you.

If you still hate Mark (and probably me now), just think for a moment why would Weyermann invest a lot of effort in producing a premium version of their already excellent pils malt if it had an obvious flaw ? The bottom line is that if you are not getting the results that you desire from this malt you do need to review your brewing process - you can't really expect Weyermann to change their malt to suit your current procedure.

Surely reviewing and revising your brewing procedure to obtain the desired result makes you an excellent brewer. A bad brewer would blame the quality of the raw materials and just accept that the poor beer quality is inevitable.

HTH


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## bum (17/6/12)

bigfridge said:


> As others have said there is heaps of information available in the brewing textbooks and summarised in articles available on the internet. Mark's comment that caused you such anguish was that water profile was one factor. I would add that add that pH control, yeast nutrition (Calcium and Zinc) and controlling the boil to obtain the desired DMS levels are the first places to start.


The only trouble with this reasonable and fairly balanced point is that Nick is clearly saying it isn't DMS at all. He'd be fairly justified if he were of the feeling that people may not be entirely following his point. He could certainly help that out by explaining it in a less confrontational as you go on to suggest.



bigfridge said:


> The bottom line is that if you are not getting the results that you desire from this malt you do need to review your brewing process - you can't really expect Weyermann to change their malt to suit your current procedure.


Or he could use another product and get the results he want without changing his methods. More than one way to skin a kitten.


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## Nick JD (17/6/12)

bum said:


> The only trouble with this reasonable and fairly balanced point is that Nick is clearly saying it isn't DMS at all. He'd be fairly justified if he were of the feeling that people may not be entirely following his point. He could certainly help that out by explaining it in a less confrontational as you go on to suggest.
> 
> 
> Or he could use another product and get the results he want without changing his methods. More than one way to skin a kitten.


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## Nick JD (17/6/12)

manticle said:


> It's not trouble, it's just an interesting flavour I have only ever tasted in beers (made by three different brewers) using that malt and some reading suggests that not all corn flavours are DMS but may relate to other things including melanoidens. Said beers were all decocted at least twice.
> 
> I decoct a lot of beers so I'm certainly not 'blaming' that process for the flavour either - just wondering if melanoidens and a particular malt can contribute a certain flavour. If so, how and why AND how could you either encourage or discourage said flavour?
> 
> The flavour was actually quite pleasant (fresh, uncooked/just cooked sweet corn, not canned, creamed or overcooked).



I have officially thrown my towel in. There's no getting through to some people, Manticle. 

Seems by MHB's reluctance to outline his methods for reducing DMS using FM Boh Pils might finally be because he's realised we're not getting DMS.


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## manticle (17/6/12)

For those interested: Page 77 of principles of brewing science



> _Pyrroles consitute another class of nitrogen bearing heterocyclics relevant to wort boiling. An important example is 2-formyl pyrrole which has a sweet-corn-like flavor. It is often confused with DMS yet the mechanisms responsible for their formation are completely different. The heterocyclic increases with increased thermal loading whereas increasing thermal loading encourages the reduction of DMS by vaporization_



Not melanoidens as I first mentioned but reductones which stem from the same non-enzymatic browning or maillard reduction pathway according to the diagram on page 75. On page 74 he also mentions sulphur bearing compounds which contribute cooked cabbage flavours (also heterocyclic and methionine products) which again are caused by excessive thermal loading rather than an inadequate boil.

The above is not meant to constitute an argument so much as facilitate discussion about something people rarely/never mention - that is that flavours people may pick as DMS may not be resulting from that and longer or harder boil may actually contribute rather than decrease those flavours.

Who knows? And who knows why I and several others have picked a sweet, fresh corn flavour in a few beers made with one particular base malt that have had minimum 90 min boils and several decoctions? Maybe there's a relationship with the above and the malting process encourages the development of that particular pyrrole more than others. Maybe there isn't and it's something else entirely.


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## Nick JD (17/6/12)

manticle said:


> For those interested: Page 77 of principles of brewing science
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nah, Manticle. Your brewing techniques are terrible. That's why you get this DMS. Stop blaming my favourite grain!  You don't know what you're tasting and you don't know how to brew like me. I bend over backwards and lick my own arse to rid my beers of this DMS that you get, but then again I am the World's Best Brewer. Bow to my awesomeness for I am not interested in a discussion because I have ALL THE ANSWERS (I don't really, but since it's my business to sell brewing, I need to pretend I do).


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## manticle (17/6/12)

On an interesting side note: I did pick what I swore was canned corn in a belgian strong pale thing I recently made. The flavour appeared during cold conditioning.

As I was brewing it for a brewclub dinner, I was quite keen not to provide something laden with DMS, whether from post fermentation infection, yeast production (recipe I've made before but always with a different yeast - first time using that yeast).

Anyway I took some still conditioning, uncarbonated samples along to a meeting.

Fourstar picked the same flavour I did immediately but the number of other suggested flavours I got painted an interesting picture of both flavour thresholds and flavour perception.

Other suggestions were: Ginger beer
Oxidation (paper)
acetaldehyde from incomplete fermentation/conditioning

Even when canned corn was suggested people generally didn't pick it/agree. Quite a few picked it as being a nice beer or potentially nice once properly conditioned and carbed. Left me more confused than when I started.

Anyway, the dinner will get a different beer but this one got conditioned out, dry hopped lightly with styrians (usual for this recipe) and bottled. Drinking one now - it's after midday - and it's not properly carbed and a bit sweet from priming sugar but the canned corn (not fresh) flavour that I picked seems to have dissipated remarkably.

Am I still confused?

Yes


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## bum (17/6/12)

Nick JD said:


> Nah, Manticle. Your brewing techniques are terrible. That's why you get this DMS. Stop blaming my favourite grain!  You don't know what you're tasting and you don't know how to brew like me. I bend over backwards and lick my own arse to rid my beers of this DMS that you get, but then again I am the World's Best Brewer. Bow to my awesomeness for I am not interested in a discussion because I have ALL THE ANSWERS (I don't really, but since it's my business to sell brewing, I need to pretend I do).


Pretty unfair here, Nick.

MHB is one of the few members (two by my count) who routinely (though less frequently than previously) post stuff that actually makes me look at my process and think about what I am doing and why. Tonnes of blokes here have taught me stuff but MHB and the other bloke (who shall go namelesss because he's not involved here) are the only two who're trying to actually help people understand instead of just telling them how to do things better. Being a retailer doesn't make him purely a self-interested front-bottom you often seem to wish to paint him.


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## bigfridge (17/6/12)

Nick JD said:


> Nah, Manticle. Your brewing techniques are terrible. That's why you get this DMS. Stop blaming my favourite grain!  You don't know what you're tasting and you don't know how to brew like me. I bend over backwards and lick my own arse to rid my beers of this DMS that you get, but then again I am the World's Best Brewer. Bow to my awesomeness for I am not interested in a discussion because I have ALL THE ANSWERS (I don't really, but since it's my business to sell brewing, I need to pretend I do).



Nick, I guess that you have picked up the towel again :lol: 

Rather than make false and unfounded personal attacks on another AHB member (which is against the posting rules BTW) - do you have anything to add to Manticle's suggestion that there are reductones responsible ?


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## manticle (17/6/12)

bum said:


> MHB and the other bloke (who shall go namelesss because he's not involved here) are the only two who're trying to actually help people understand instead of just telling them how to do things better.



Not sure they're the only two. Definitely your description of them is right (presuming the other is who I think you mean) and definitely got a wealth of knowledge and experience on which to draw but I think that intention is reflected in more than just two members.

Anyway depsite having had my own issues with one of those previously, I'd love to see this thread move back towards a discussion of the various issues that have been raised because that's what I'm interested in.

Internet arguments are pretty easy to find - solid brewing science discussions less so.


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## MHB (17/6/12)

Nick JD said:


> I have officially thrown my towel in. There's no getting through to some people, Manticle.
> 
> Seems by MHB's reluctance to outline his methods for reducing DMS using FM Boh Pils might finally be because he's realised we're not getting DMS.


Nick I have four posts before this, please show me where I referred to or even hinted that DMS was the problem or in any way involved in the discussion.
As for mashing with any floor malted grain-
Floor malted grain is always going to be a bit more random then modern malt, simply looking at the brewing practices that evolved to accommodate the older styles of malt will give any brewer all the information they need. You would have to seriously consider a Glucan rest so mash in, in the low 40oCs, spend a bit of time in the low 50oCs for Protease then mash as per usual for a pilsner. Personally I would be step mashing but this malt is ideally suited to a triple decoction.
A 90 minute boil would be the minimum, seriously consider boiling for 120 minutes as Urquell do and with reason. Doesnt have to be a rampaging boil, not much more than a simmer really.
Pitch a very big active starter (up around 4 million cells/ml/point) (thats right I remember that thread - you dont believe Budvar know what they are talking about either, do you) brew cooler than you could with a smaller pitch, lager longer than normal with a fair amount of yeast carried over to the conditioning tank.
This is all pretty much standard practice when you are trying to make a really sensational Bohemian Pilsner, there is nothing above that hasnt been discussed here on AHB and that isnt available to anyone who wants to take the time to look for it.
Why anyone would choose to brew with perhaps the most expensive base malt available and fail to use it in a way that gets the most from that investment is beyond my comprehension (mind you I feel that way about a lot of your brewing practices).
Mark


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## manticle (17/6/12)

Any thoughts on the reductones MHB?

The few lagers I've made have been multiple stepped (although not b-glucan), big pitch, cool beginning, slow ferment, D-rest,/conditioning, yeast carried over to lagering and reasonable lagering length. This flavour I mention, and that I think Nick is referring to is very specific and I have only noticed in beers made with this malt. Presumably there is something you can do to change it process wise, but that doesn't mean there isn't something in the malting process that makes it more prone.

I had a 25 kg bag of the stuff and only noticed it (sweet corn) with a bo-pils I made - made various Belgians with no indication of this flavour so it may be yeast specific or how that grain interacts with a particular yeast strain or something else entirely.


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## manticle (17/6/12)

manticle said:


> On page 74 he also mentions sulphur bearing compounds which contribute cooked cabbage flavours (also heterocyclic and methionine products) which again are caused by excessive thermal loading rather than an inadequate boil.



Correction - page 76.

Apologies.


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## bigfridge (17/6/12)

manticle said:


> Correction - page 76.
> 
> Apologies.



Thanks - I was having problems finding the section.

But p76 is all about Diacetyl in my book, but I have the 1989 1st edition.

What section is it in ?


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## manticle (17/6/12)

Should have specified. Mine is 2nd edition.

Chapter 2: wort boiling, subsection: non-enzymatic browning

In my edition it follows the section on reduction of DMS.


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## MHB (17/6/12)

You could think of reductones as the Acid/Protein half of the Millard reaction pathway, tho that could be a bit misleading as they can act as antioxidants and catalyse other reactions to.
I think this covers the ground better than I can. Maillard Reactions 101: Theory
How you manage the mashing will in large part determine which ingredients wind up in the beer and whether they are flavoursome or faulty, doing Glucanase and Protease rests will encourage lower molecular weight proteins that tend to be less problematic.
This is something that I am only peripherally aware of, not something I have studied in detail so probably best to do your own digging if you are really interested.
Mark


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## manticle (17/6/12)

OK. Cheers for the link - doesn't answer everything but certainly gives some additional food for thought.

Aiming to knock out a few lagers in the next few weeks, including a bo-pils or two. Might try the FM for one of those with a b-glucan rest. Rest most beers for 55 but for only 5-10 mins. Would you suggest lower and longer for the Wey FM? Say 50 for 30?


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## bum (17/6/12)

Would have just added this as an edit but too much time has passed.



bum said:


> are the only two who're trying to actually help people understand


It has been brought to my attention via PM that I've said something here that wasn't exactly what I meant. My language is far too loose above. I didn't mean to be saying anything about anyone's intentions at all. There are lots of knowledgeable and helpful brewers here and I didn't mean to denegrate their important contributions. I was talking more broadly about how I receive certain delivery styles. It is always about me, after all. My apologies to anyone who (quite rightly) may have taken umbrage to the statement above.


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## Nick JD (17/6/12)

MHB said:


> Nick I have four posts before this, please show me where I referred to or even hinted that DMS was the problem or in any way involved in the discussion.
> As for mashing with any floor malted grain-
> Floor malted grain is always going to be a bit more random then “modern” malt, simply looking at the brewing practices that evolved to accommodate the older styles of malt will give any brewer all the information they need. You would have to seriously consider a Glucan rest so mash in, in the low 40oC’s, spend a bit of time in the low 50oC’s for Protease then mash as per usual for a pilsner. Personally I would be step mashing but this malt is ideally suited to a triple decoction.
> A 90 minute boil would be the minimum, seriously consider boiling for 120 minutes as Urquell do and with reason. Doesn’t have to be a rampaging boil, not much more than a simmer really.
> ...



See, here's again where you are inciting my abrasive comments. You've assumed that I don't do these things your have outlined. That is very rude, and I will continue to have no respect for you for this very reason.

I do the same thing for both FM and non FM, and one I get corn husks, the other I don't. I'm prepared to discuss this amiably, but you start off insinuating that I'm not doing anything with regard to normal Boh Pils brewing methods. 

I've underlined why you are a dick. And I think Manticle's insights and my high-gravity boil post decoction may be largely responsible for the flavour I get, although I still don't understand why floor malting creates the precursors all other things being equal.

If you'd like me to explain again why I don't like your arrogant attitude assuming I don't know how a Boh Pils is made, please continue being an arse.

"mind you I feel that way about a lot of your brewing practices" ... you're really showing your cards now aren't you?  Arrogant prick.


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## drew9242 (17/6/12)

MHB said:


> Nick I have four posts before this, please show me where I referred to or even hinted that DMS was the problem or in any way involved in the discussion.
> As for mashing with any floor malted grain-
> Floor malted grain is always going to be a bit more random then "modern" malt, simply looking at the brewing practices that evolved to accommodate the older styles of malt will give any brewer all the information they need. You would have to seriously consider a Glucan rest so mash in, in the low 40oC's, spend a bit of time in the low 50oC's for Protease then mash as per usual for a pilsner. Personally I would be step mashing but this malt is ideally suited to a triple decoction.
> A 90 minute boil would be the minimum, seriously consider boiling for 120 minutes as Urquell do and with reason. Doesn't have to be a rampaging boil, not much more than a simmer really.
> ...



Thanks for a good thought provoking post. Gives me food for thought about trying something new. That's what I love about brewing. There is always something new to learn/try.


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## dr K (17/6/12)

Well certainly a good laugh !
The problem with all of us is that our noses, tongues and brains are different and the problem with beer is that some by-products go together.
DMS gets picked on a lot because some people will tell you that no-chilling will lead to botulism and DMS, no-one has died of no-chill related botulism ergo no-chill does not cause DMS.
Whether there is more DMS in a no-chill beer than a fast chill is irrelevant if you cannot detect it, I am told that detectable levels of DMS are similar to cooking cabbage (cooked cabbage either drives it off or DMS is not so bad, btw I am cooking cabbage right now). I am also told it smells like cooked corn, well I may not be a gormand but I can tell the difference between the sweet body of cooked corn and the , lets face it, sulphorous odour of cabbage....thats my take on DMS, whats yours....
Back to smell/aroma/evaluation..it is not unusual to small amounts of both diacetyl and acetaldehyde in a "homebrew", after all they are both by-products of fermentation and both a result of not quite finishing the process (time is not the only factor nor is temperature, yeast health and management are both higher on the list), DMS too falls into the category of avoidable "faults".
When mixed together, as they often will be, its up to the judge's nose and experience to evaluate, and at low levels its all about threshold and it can be very difficult.
Shorts answer, before you pin the tail, make sure you get the right donkey.

K


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## bigfridge (17/6/12)

Nick JD said:


> ... I think Manticle's insights and my high-gravity boil post decoction may be largely responsible for the flavour I get, although I still don't understand why floor malting creates the precursors all other things being equal.



Ok Nick .... since you asked so nicely, I would like to help you but you need to give up on the abuse and start to help us to help you. You claim that you know how to brew lagers, but I cannot see anywhere that you have actually described how you brew lagers ! 

As you say, the standard Weyermann pils malt gives you a good tasting beer, but you are unhappy with the result when using the premium pils. So far there has been information supplied about non-enzymatic browning, hetero-cyclic suphur compounds and reductones. I must admit that I have not read all of your posts here as I find your abusive, abrasive posts unpleasant, but I can say that I have no idea what your current brewing practices are and hence I too, find it difficult to suggest what you could change.

This all assumes that you want to change - you responded with a smiley-face when someone else suggested that one option was to just accept that this grain is not for you and stick with something that does work. Hopefully you won't start to underline me !

If you consult the spec sheets that Mark posted previously, you can see that the Premium is less modified (Hartong index of 34-39) when compared to the standard Bohemian Pilsener malt (38-44 Hartong). The Hartong index represents the ratio of soluable nitrogen to total nitrogen in the malt, which gives an indication of how much protein has been broken down during malting. Mark has suggested that you look at your mashing schedule, but I am not sure if you read it as it wasn't underlined. 

Avoiding oxidation of the mash by spashing and stiring is also critical. 

One worthwhile avenue for you to explore would be to consider if this reduced level of soluable nitrogen has an effect on the Amino Acid level of the wort and if this could be influencing the Maillard pathways dominant. The maillard compounds are formed during malt kilning and mashing, but the boil is the final determinant of their character. George Fix discusses these compounds in Analysis of Brewing Techniques (Table 1.26 p53 Sulphur-Bearing Heterocyclic Compounds) and considers that 'extreme thermal loading of wort appears to be the most likely mechanism for their creation". The percentage evaporation loss is a very usefull control parameter. The optimum rate of around 10% is sufficient for extracting hop constituents and controlling DMS and is achieved by using a 90 minute boil. 

FWIW my standard procedure is to ensure an extended dough-in so that the malt spends around 30 mins going from room temp to 50c and then jumps up to 65 (avoiding spending much time at 50 as this kills the head retention), 90 minute mash with 10% evaporation during a 90 minute boil and do not experiece the character that you complain about.

Before anyone can help you further you will need to tell us the specifics of your mashing and boiling procedures as I beleive that this is where the solution lies.

HTH,
David


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## Nick JD (18/6/12)

bigfridge said:


> Before anyone can help you further you will need to tell us the specifics of your mashing and boiling procedures as I beleive that this is where the solution lies.



No help/solution needed. I use non-fm Boh Pils for the most delicious Boh Pils eva. Thanks anyway.


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## Mike L'Itorus (18/6/12)

Nick JD said:


> I use non-fm Boh Pils for the most delicious Boh Pils eva.



And I use Twinings for the most delicious tea, Eva.


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## bigfridge (18/6/12)

Nick JD said:


> No help/solution needed. I use non-fm Boh Pils for the most delicious Boh Pils eva. Thanks anyway.



That's great news - I am pleased for you.

Any chance that you can share your process so that we can all learn a bit and enjoy the most delicious Boh Pils eva as well.


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## cam89brewer (18/6/12)

[quote name='Mike L'Itorus' post='924860' date='Jun 18 2012, 11:44 AM']And I use Twinings for the most delicious tea, Eva. 



[/quote]

It think this is exactly what this thread needed!! something to break the tension... :lol:


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## Malted (18/6/12)

bigfridge said:


> That's great news - I am pleased for you.
> 
> Any chance that you can share your process so that we can all learn a bit and enjoy the most delicious Boh Pils eva as well.



Step 1: take a 10 litre pot and put it on your stovetop?


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## Nevalicious (19/6/12)

Malted said:


> Step 1: take a 10 litre pot and put it on your stovetop?



You're incorrect Malted. One must use a 19L BigW pot... Tsk tsk, haven't you learnt anything!


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