# Is it dead?



## TK1 (11/11/13)

Hi,

Just tried to brew my first batch of cider. Used Mangrove Jack pouch of Pear Cider.

New fermenter, all clean/sterilised, followed instructions, right temp etc.

Over 24 hours later, not so much as a bubble from the airlock. A pilsener I out on a few hours later is bubbling happily away.

I threw out the packet so don't know if it was near the expiry date but all seemed OK and temperature still within range.

So, do I chuck it and start again? Or leave it another day or so and see if it kicks off?

As a "part 2", any experiences with the Mangrove Jacks pouches? Not up to a full brew from scratch yet, but interested in any tips or thoughts on them.

Thanks,
Darren

Sent from my HTC_PN071 using Tapatalk


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## manticle (11/11/13)

Why would you throw it away?

1.Forget the airlock. There are many reasons it may not bubble - it is not a scientific instrument and it is not foolproof.
2. take a sample in your hydrometer tube and see if the gravity is less than when you started. This is a sure sign that fermentation of some kind is taking place.

If it is the same, go to 3 which is

3. Buy more yeast. Add. Seal. Repeat.


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## jaypes (11/11/13)

hydrometer = scientifically calibrated piece of test apparatus
airlock = $2 piece of shitty plastic


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## HBHB (11/11/13)

It'll be fine patience. Stop pacing the hallway....you're making the yeast dizzy and dizzy yeast is sleepy yeast. :blink:

Follow Manticle's advice.

+

Step 4, Adjust airlock with a medium sized hammer and place in a bin.

Step 5. Replace airlock and lid with glad wrap

Martin


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## TK1 (11/11/13)

OK. Slapped myself and told me to get over it.

Checked and it's still warm with some condensation inside so something must be happening. Will leave the airlock there as I'm out of glad wrap, but rest assured its days are numbered . But will take hydrometer reading shortly and in the morning, if nothing's happening then off to the shop for some more yeast.

Thanks Martin for the link too, it reassured me my brew isn't a write-off 

Thanks all for the advice. Will report back in a few weeks on how it turned out :chug:

Regards,
Darren


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## MrTwalky (11/11/13)

Gotta say... I'm a bit of a fan of the airlock. Nothing more satisfying to me than the gentle bloop bloop of my beer, and a little sniff...
But I can't see my beer fermenting like with glad wrap. Each to their own though.


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## sp0rk (11/11/13)

MrTwalky said:


> Gotta say... I'm a bit of a fan of the airlock. Nothing more satisfying to me than the gentle bloop bloop of my beer, and a little sniff...
> But I can't see my beer fermenting like with glad wrap. Each to their own though.


Ferment in a fridge, every time you open the door you get a nice big whiff of what's cookin'


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## law-of-ohms (11/11/13)

wife wakes me up at 3am...... "There's a frog in the house!...."

lol


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## MrTwalky (11/11/13)

My partner has accused me before of looking longingly at my airlock. "Oh airlock, your gentle boo-bloop brings me happiness..."


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## Dunkelbrau (11/11/13)

I've never had an airlock bloop at me.. I don't screw the lid down super tight either.. I figure, co2 is going out, it will be right!

I'm pretty sure condensation is a sign of fermentation?


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## yum beer (11/11/13)

I enjoy sitting at the bar in front of the brew fridges with the only thing to break the silence the blooping of a busy airlock,
I hate going to the fridge and the airlock is just sitting there....'DO SOMETHING, YOU STUPID AIRLOCK'
Tried the glad wrap thing, I've got room for an airlock, I like the sound...glad wrap is BORING.


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## BeardedWonder (12/11/13)

I love the "blurp" of the airlock!
Most satisfying sound ever.



TK1 said:


> As a "part 2", any experiences with the Mangrove Jacks pouches? Not up to a full brew from scratch yet, but interested in any tips or thoughts on them.


I've had a pear cider using the Mangrove Jack's pouch as a base.
It's the second cider I've brewed and the first one that was drinkable (first cider was a Brigalow kit and got hammered by _severe_ temperature variances. Still got a bunch of bottles of it 8 months down the track and it's _just starting_ to become drinkable).

I made some minor adjustments to the cider, mainly attempting to sweeten the thing for SWMBO.
I added 850ml of pear juice and 3L of apple/pear juice, supplementing some of the water.

My kit had a sachet of "pear flavouring" which was supposed to add some pear aroma and taste. I added it simply to see what it would do.
It did sweeten things and gave it a strong pear flavour, but I find it a bit too artificial. The missus likes it, so there were brownie points earned.

I have left it to age in the bottle (bottled in June) and haven't had a taste of it for a good two or three months, so I'm hoping that the artificial taste will loose it's edge over time.

I'd definitely use the kit again as a base, but next time I'll probably sub out more water and add in a lot more pear juice and skip the flavouring sachet all together. Maybe even add in some berries/berry juice to get it more fruity for the missus.

But it's all down to personal preference. Give it a shot, try it out, if all else fails you can gift it out to the in-laws (only if it tastes crap though!)

Side note: took about 13/14 days to get to FG, however I left it in the FV for about 37 days (to allow for it to clear up a bit and such. I don't have a brew-fridge so I can't cold crash). It was in the middle of some pretty cold days, so the ferment was pretty sluggish (lots of blankets and hot water bottles used). But I would say it's likely that the brew was a slow ferment anyway, so don't fret too much if things tag a little longer than you expect.
It also developed a strong sulfur smell, which is a normal occurrence (from the wonderful info I received from this website!). I was advised that the smell would dissipate while it bottle conditioned, but it could take longer and the only way to tell if the smell had gone would be to open the bottles. Hence why I left the brew in the FV for so long.

Essay over.
I'm going off to listen to the airlock 'blurp'...


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## Greg.L (12/11/13)

HBHB said:


> Step 4, Adjust airlock with a medium sized hammer and place in a bin.
> 
> Step 5. Replace airlock and lid with glad wrap
> 
> Martin


This is the worst possible advice you can give for cider making. It is often said that air is the enemy of good cider, so using a lid that is a thin oxygen-permeable film, held on by a rubber band, if your cider doesn't turn to vinegar it will at least be much worse than it should be. Many professional wine and cider makers use airlocks, have done for many decades, yet the people on AHB think they know better.


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## Yob (12/11/13)

Little OT here..

You certainly do have a passionate dislike for gladwrap Greg. (I know feck all about cider brewing but fermenting is fermenting yeah?) I don't even own an airlock, had brews in FV's for weeks on end, cold conditioned for weeks on end, no signs of the sky falling on my head yet..

It really isn't the Armageddon of brewing that you make it out to be man.. Just ain't.

Peace out.


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## Greg.L (12/11/13)

Read any reputable advice on cider making and the first thing will be "keep out the air". Gladwrap on beer - that is up to each individual - but put gladwrap on cider and you're just doing it wrong. It may be ok to do it because it is only your cider that is being ruined, but to advise others to do it is the sort of thing that makes a forum look pretty bad.


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## sp0rk (12/11/13)

Greg.L said:


> This is the worst possible advice you can give for cider making. It is often said that air is the enemy of good cider, so using a lid that is a thin oxygen-permeable film, held on by a rubber band, if your cider doesn't turn to vinegar it will at least be much worse than it should be. Many professional wine and cider makers use airlocks, have done for many decades, yet the people on AHB think they know better.


Airlocks still let air back in momentarily, I would dare to fathom it would be more than glad wrap is letting in
Once CO2 pressure has built up within your FV, there will be a blanket of CO2 on top of your wort/cider/whatever anyway and the gladwrap puffs up, my guess is that once it's going CO2 will be going out at a rate too high to let air back in
The main purpose of an airlock is to stop bugs and airborne nasties from settling on top of your precious liquid...


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## sp0rk (12/11/13)

Greg.L said:


> Read any reputable advice on cider making and the first thing will be "keep out the air". Gladwrap on beer - that is up to each individual - but put gladwrap on cider and you're just doing it wrong. It may be ok to do it because it is only your cider that is being ruined, but to advise others to do it is the sort of thing that makes a forum look pretty bad.


Reputable advice is only as good as the facts known at the time of publishing
Take Palmer's how to brew for example, the older online version has a whole lot of "facts" that are now known to be not true or irrelevant.


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## Airgead (12/11/13)

One note on the whole airlock/gladwrap thing.

Cider is not the same as beer.

Beer contains a bunch of stuff that will protect somewhat from oxidisation (tannins, phenolics, esters, stuff). Ciders generally don't. Ciders are much more prone to oxygen spoilage than beers. Same for meads and white wines. Red wines you can happily open ferment and they will be fine. Whites though, not so much. 

Glad wrap is fine for beer. Use it. It works. Not so much for cider.

And the whole thing about the co2 blanket is bullshit. That would be true at absolute zero but at any reasonable temperature you get convective mixing. Its the same reason we don't all suffocate because the atmosphere has divided into neat layers based on the weights of the gasses.

Use an airlock.

Cheers
Dave

Late edit - fark I wish I could type.


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## Greg.L (12/11/13)

AHB is a forum where bad advice gets passed round and round until people think it must be true. Then when anyone tries to correct the misinformation they are criticised and a bunch of bs posted in support of the bad advice. "Airlocks still let air back in momentarily, I would dare to fathom it would be more than glad wrap is letting in. Once CO2 pressure has built up within your FV, there will be a blanket of CO2 on top of your wort/cider/whatever anyway and the gladwrap puffs up, my guess is that once it's going CO2 will be going out at a rate too high to let air back in." None of this is true, it is not based on any evidence or science, yet plenty of people will believe it because it seems convenient.


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## Airgead (12/11/13)

Question was asked about airlocks letting o2 back in -

Yes. Airlocks let some o2 back through. no question about that. Even just by simple diffusion through the water. The amount though is tiny. Glad wrap also lets o2 through. Orders of magnitude more. It is a gas permeable membrane. There is no pressure barrier. The only way glad wrap is better than an open fermentation is that bugs can't crawl in. It does nothing at all to exclude oxygen. Same goes for your plastic fermenter btw. Those things leak oxygen like a sieve.

During an active ferment you are probably OK. The yeast will clean up. As soon as the fermentation stops then your cider will get o2 damage.

I'm happy to use gladwrap and plastic fermenters for beer. Cider and mead get fermented and aged in glass or stainless with a well sealed airlock.

Seriously, they are what? 4 bucks? For a good one.

Cheers
Dave


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## sp0rk (12/11/13)

I deleted it because I realised referencing to a site that's spruiking a product isn't the greatest idea
I Got caught up in internet argument nonsense...
I personally ferment cider in 5 litre batches in a demijohn so I use a airlock
I'm looking at doing some 23 litre batches soon as I've just acquired 3 more kegs so I'll do some experimentation with airlocks and with gladwrap
Might even try to obtain/borrow some equipment to test oxygen levels


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## Airgead (12/11/13)

The internet is an argumentative place.

I shall edit mine in solidarity.

FWIW, I ferment meads in glass (5l mostly but one 25l) and my ciders in old kegs. I'm about to invest in some stainless to replace my glass and let me move up to larger batches.

Peace brewing brother. Bay your airlock ever blurple and your glad wrap never split.

Cheers
Dave


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## HBHB (12/11/13)

TK1 said:


> Will report back in a few weeks on how it turned out :chug:
> 
> Regards,
> Darren


No, don't do that.......you'll be reporting that it's not real good. Report back in about 6-8 weeks on it, where you'll most likely say......"I had nothing to be worried about".



The whole thing about home brewing is it's a very simple thing. It's also a very relaxing thing if you let it be.

Welcome to the second best hobby out there. 

Martin


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## r055c0 (12/11/13)

I tried the glad wrap thing but found my wort was very quickly contaminated with curious cat. Luckily the cat was able to scramble her way out and didn't drown but I'm afraid the beer didn't make it.


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## HBHB (12/11/13)

ro55c0 said:


> I tried the glad wrap thing but found my wort was very quickly contaminated with curious cat. Luckily the cat was able to scramble her way out and didn't drown but I'm afraid the beer didn't make it.



That's the trouble with beer, it's just a pussy magnet.


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## r055c0 (12/11/13)

Poor form HBHB. Made me snort my coffee all over my desk.


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## HBHB (12/11/13)

ro55c0 said:


> Poor form HBHB. Made me snort my coffee all over my desk.


 :super:


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## MrTwalky (12/11/13)

HBHB said:


> Welcome to the second best hobby out there.
> 
> Martin


Now you got me thinking... "whats the first?" You mean I could be missing out on something and you're only just telling me?!!!



HBHB said:


> That's the trouble with beer, it's just a pussy magnet.


SNAP!!!


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## TK1 (13/11/13)

Hi again,

Thanks all. Nothing like a simple question on the internet to stir up a vigorous debate. My first one so it keeps the airlock, I'll leave it in the fermenter for a few weeks and then bottle condition for a couple of months. Might even be warm enough in Melbourne to enjoy it by then!

Checked the SG and it's going down, temp is constant and some condensation so obviously something is happening. I'll calm down a bit and wait it out.

Krausen - thanks for the tips on the Mangrove Jacks kit. I'll give it a go with some pear juice next time. Pretty sure the wife will drink it regardless once it's done (she took a swig out of the hydrometer flask and declared it tasty, so whatever the end result can't be worse!).

Regards,
Darren


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## Airgead (13/11/13)

TK1 said:


> Hi again,
> 
> Krausen - thanks for the tips on the Mangrove Jacks kit. I'll give it a go with some pear juice next time. Pretty sure the wife will drink it regardless once it's done (she took a swig out of the hydrometer flask and declared it tasty, so whatever the end result can't be worse!).
> Regards,
> Darren


At this stage it will still be plenty sweet. Once its finished it could be too dry....

I could make a dry in cider joke but I won't.

Cheers
Dave


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## HBHB (13/11/13)

MrTwalky said:


> Now you got me thinking... "whats the first?" You mean I could be missing out on something and you're only just telling me?!!!


Fly Fishing h34r: ....... even more accessories and bling than brewing (believe it or not)

:blink:


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## gap (13/11/13)

HBHB said:


> Fly Fishing h34r: ....... even more accessories and bling than brewing (believe it or not)
> 
> :blink:


I have managed to combine both Fly Fishing and Brewing for the past 16 years.
You are quite right about the accessories and bling. There is always something new to buy in both hobbies.


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