# Marzen/oktoberfest



## NeilArge (20/5/08)

G'day all

Just would like your opinions on this, my third AG brew - a Marzen/Oktoberfest.
Here's the grain (and hop) bill:
3.5 kg pilsener malt
1 kg munich malt
300 gm Caramunich malt
130 gm Melanoiden malt
60 gm chocolate malt
52g Hallertauer Mittelfreuh hop pellets (60 mins. boil)
14g Hallertauer Mittelfreuh hop pellets (10 mins. boil)
10g Hallertauer Mittelfreuh hop pellets (dry hop)

Liquid lager yeast

Opinions?
ToG


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## warrenlw63 (20/5/08)

Nice, ToG

Only thing I'd do is maybe omit the late hopping. Oktoberfests should just be malt dominated. Last hop addition would be best around 20 minutes from flameout.

That said it's your beer mate. If you like hops go for it. Maybe no dry hops but.

Enjoy the beer.

Warren -


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## Goat (20/5/08)

sounds a nice recipe ToG.

Warrenlw63 is right about the late hops being not to style, but I tend to whack a little in late or dry just to balance out the malt profile - I think it helps a bit. I also tend to use a little more melanoidin than you are using, so it probably needs the hop more. 

Given that you are only using 10g, it will be subtle at most anyway.


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## SJW (20/5/08)

I dont claim to be an expert but I have made many many German Lagers and IMO brush the pils. This is now my house std. Marzen, and its a cracker. One thing I have leart is to KEEP IT SIMPLE. The grain bill that is. I would brush the Mel and choc too.

Steve

Oktoberfest/Marzen 

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 25.00 L
Brewer: Stephen Wright 
Boil Size: 32.05 L Asst Brewer: 
Boil Time: 75 min Equipment: Keg 
Taste Rating(out of 50): 0.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 
Taste Notes: 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3000.00 gm Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) Grain 48.39 % 
3000.00 gm Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (5.9 EBC) Grain 48.39 % 
200.00 gm Caramunich III (Weyermann) (139.9 EBC) Grain 3.23 % 
60.00 gm Tettnang [4.10 %] (60 min) Hops 23.5 IBU 
30.00 gm Tettnang [4.10 %] (20 min) Hops 7.1 IBU 
0.60 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
2 Pkgs SafLager German Lager (DCL Yeast #S-189) Yeast-Lager 



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.059 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 0.000 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG Measured Final Gravity: 0.000 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.63 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.00 % 
Bitterness: 30.6 IBU Calories: 0 cal/l 
Est Color: 19.9 EBC Color:


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## razz (20/5/08)

Interesting recipe ToG. I don't know that you need the last two in the maltbill, I tend to keep things simple as far as that goes. If you have it, I would up the munich for the bulk of the maltbill or use vienna. My current Octoberfest was made with all vienna.


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## BoilerBoy (20/5/08)

TunofGrunt said:


> G'day all
> 
> Just would like your opinions on this, my third AG brew - a Marzen/Oktoberfest.
> Here's the grain (and hop) bill:
> ...



Looks ok, but as others have suggested I would make a 20 min hop addition as the last one for this style, its a malt driven beer, however thats up to you.

Which yeast will you use?

Cheers,
BB


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## Inge (20/5/08)

SJW said:


> I dont claim to be an expert but I have made many many German Lagers and IMO brush the pils. This is now my house std. Marzen, and its a cracker. One thing I have leart is to KEEP IT SIMPLE. The grain bill that is. I would brush the Mel and choc too.
> 
> Steve
> 
> ...



I've stolen this. Hope you don't mind, looks bloody delicious!


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## mika (20/5/08)

SJW said:


> I dont claim to be an expert but I have made many many German Lagers and IMO brush the pils.




Why's that ?


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## warrenlw63 (20/5/08)

mika said:


> Why's that ?



Hairy? :lol: 

Warren -


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## SJW (20/5/08)

> I've stolen this. Hope you don't mind, looks bloody delicious!


Its all yours mate. It took many brews to come up with this one.




> I dont claim to be an expert but I have made many many German Lagers and IMO brush the pils.
> 
> 
> 
> Why's that ?



If u were in Newcastle u could come by and sample the 2 side by side straight from the keg. The one with pils is ok but the one as above with Vienna is heap more malty. With temp controlled fermentation at 8 deg C and kegged with Gelatine its about as good as I have tasted. Mind u this is only with this style, I am still strugling with Bocks. I just can't seem to nail that one.

Steve


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## warrenlw63 (20/5/08)

SJW said:


> If u were in Newcastle u could come by and sample the 2 side by side straight from the keg. The one with pils is ok but the one as above with Vienna is heap more malty. With temp controlled fermentation at 8 deg C and kegged with Gelatine its about as good as I have tasted. Mind u this is only with this style, I am still strugling with Bocks. I just can't seem to nail that one.
> 
> Steve



Hey Steve so you're saying that S-189 is good in the maltier styles? I'm hoping this because I just pitched some in my Dunkel at 11 degrees. I'll ferment it around the same.

Certainly is a great lager yeast. Was a total knockout in my recent CAP. If it passes the test in the more malt-driven styles I intend to make it a regular fixture.  

Edit: sorry about the slight hijack ToG.

Warren -


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## newguy (20/5/08)

SJW said:


> Mind u this is only with this style, I am still strugling with Bocks. I just can't seem to nail that one.



What have you tried? For a traditional bock, I usually go with 100% munich malt. Doppelbocks need a tad more maltiness - dark munich up to 100% or light munich with ~5-10% caramunich. Sometimes even just a touch of carafa for colour. Also avoid late hop additions for everything except maibocks, but even with them, the hop character should still be low.


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## yardy (20/5/08)

TunofGrunt said:


> G'day all
> 
> Just would like your opinions on this, my third AG brew - a Marzen/Oktoberfest.
> Here's the grain (and hop) bill:
> ...




only done one but it was a big hit with all who tried it

2250 Munich1
2000 Bo Pils
1250 Vienna
.750 Munich2
.150 Acid (malt  )
.070 Carafa

Northern Brewer & Saaz to about 26IBU
2 X S-189 @ 9*C.

probably would reverse the Vienna & Pils weights next time.

cheers
yard


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## NeilArge (20/5/08)

Thanks for that - I'll drop the dry hopping. Was just thinking of trying to grab a bit more of that aroma but I'll leave it. To be honest, this is a bit of a 'clean up' beer before I nick off for a while. I'm trying to get rid of a melanoiden/munich malt blend (got mixed up in the shipping, for which I take full responsibility) and I have a fair stash of JW pils here as well. But I will certainly try this again with various combinations of more munich/more vienna in the future. Fantastic advice one and all - what a community of scholars!! 


TunofGrunt said:


> G'day all
> 
> Just would like your opinions on this, my third AG brew - a Marzen/Oktoberfest.
> Here's the grain (and hop) bill:
> ...


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## NeilArge (20/5/08)

No dramas Warra.

ToG



warrenlw63 said:


> Hey Steve so you're saying that S-189 is good in the maltier styles? I'm hoping this because I just pitched some in my Dunkel at 11 degrees. I'll ferment it around the same.
> 
> Certainly is a great lager yeast. Was a total knockout in my recent CAP. If it passes the test in the more malt-driven styles I intend to make it a regular fixture.
> 
> ...


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## NeilArge (20/5/08)

Thanks BB. I'm gonna drop the dry hopping and beef up the later additions as you suggest (weights to depend on AAUs, etc.). I'm planning on using two packets of S-189.

Cheers

ToG



BoilerBoy said:


> Looks ok, but as others have suggested I would make a 20 min hop addition as the last one for this style, its a malt driven beer, however thats up to you.
> 
> Which yeast will you use?
> 
> ...


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## SJW (20/5/08)

> Certainly is a great lager yeast. Was a total knockout in my recent CAP. If it passes the test in the more malt-driven styles I intend to make it a regular fixture.
> 
> Edit: sorry about the slight hijack ToG.
> 
> Warren -



I first used it in a CAP and it was great now I use it for all my Lagers.



> What have you tried? For a traditional bock, I usually go with 100% munich malt. Doppelbocks need a tad more maltiness - dark munich up to 100% or light munich with ~5-10% caramunich. Sometimes even just a touch of carafa for colour. Also avoid late hop additions for everything except maibocks, but even with them, the hop character should still be low.



I have done some dumb stuff with Bocks. The best one I made was a Partial. With my all grain efforts I have used too many grains and gone for too long boils. Thanks for your advice and I might put it on the winter brewing schedule.

Steve


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## Duff (20/5/08)

ToG,

Good info in the style of the week thread located here

Cheers.


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## Asher (20/5/08)

Oktoberfest - malt driven - weeeeeell 
I'd say its one of those beers where nothing should stand out. Maltyness should be perceived, but only just... In fact the colour itself should be enough to sway a judge into the perception of malt in an otherwise clean fully fermented darker lager beer.
German Pilsner malt is malty... Well its made from 100 malt anyway 
I like to use thirds of Pils Munich & Vienna with a splash of Caramunich and a pinch of Carafa Special if I need the colour.

Just sticking up for my fave malt

Asher


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## mika (20/5/08)

I've made Asher's recipe and a couple of the missus's friends drained the keg before I could get him a sample. The Paulaner Oktoberfest I wouldn't describe as real Malty either, but then I guess that's the joy of homebrewing, make what ya like.

The lack of Pils didn't affect the conversion efficiency did it ?


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## NeilArge (20/5/08)

Thanks for that, Duff. Should've done a bit more homework I guess... Methinks I might have to change the name of the topic to 'dark lager'  . But all this advice just makes me keener to try this all again... next winter!

Thanks

ToG



Duff said:


> ToG,
> 
> Good info in the style of the week thread located here
> 
> Cheers.


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## blackbock (21/5/08)

I agree with SJW that having Pils malt as the main base grain is not ideal. I think you really need to get some Vienna in there, or at least up the proportion of Munich. That would also allow you to ditch the choc. It just doesn't seem right adjusting for colour in a Mrzen.

Regarding the S189, I'm never using it again. For a lager yeast it gives me no good feelings on my tastebuds


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## SJW (21/5/08)

> Regarding the S189, I'm never using it again. For a lager yeast it gives me no good feelings on my tastebuds


Interesting. R U sure there was no infection? S189 (IMO) is not a "good feeling" yeast. Its profile is neutral. Its comments like that, that make me think I should go back to liquid yeast again for a brew or 2 to see what I am missing.

Steve


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## BoilerBoy (21/5/08)

TunofGrunt said:


> Thanks BB. I'm gonna drop the dry hopping and beef up the later additions as you suggest (weights to depend on AAUs, etc.). I'm planning on using two packets of S-189.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> ToG



I thought you were going liquid, My first choice for a maltier style lager would be Wyeast 2206 Bavarian lager, its fantastic for rich malty lagers.
TDA passed on to me a sample of WL833 (thankyou) which smells quite similar to WY2206, I've currently got it going in a maibock at the moment, cant wait to make a comparison.

BB


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## NeilArge (21/5/08)

BB

In an ideal world I would go a liquid yeast, but living in regional Australia makes that choice a bit problematic at times. It takes quite a while to get here and so isn't cold. It's dearer, and while I could culture up half a dozen starters for other brews I don't have the fridge space to keep even more starters (Still got a few american ale starters in the fridge that the missus is threatening to chuck out :angry: ). So, sorry for the whinge, but in the end I went for convenience. But I'll bear that strain in mind when I make a 'real' Oktoberfest next year.

Cheers

ToG



BoilerBoy said:


> I thought you were going liquid, My first choice for a maltier style lager would be Wyeast 2206 Bavarian lager, its fantastic for rich malty lagers.
> TDA passed on to me a sample of WL833 (thankyou) which smells quite similar to WY2206, I've currently got it going in a maibock at the moment, cant wait to make a comparison.
> 
> BB


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## BoilerBoy (21/5/08)

TunofGrunt said:


> BB
> 
> In an ideal world I would go a liquid yeast, but living in regional Australia makes that choice a bit problematic at times. It takes quite a while to get here and so isn't cold. It's dearer, and while I could culture up half a dozen starters for other brews I don't have the fridge space to keep even more starters (Still got a few american ale starters in the fridge that the missus is threatening to chuck out :angry: ). So, sorry for the whinge, but in the end I went for convenience. But I'll bear that strain in mind when I make a 'real' Oktoberfest next year.
> 
> ...



Yes, I see how that would be a problem, Good luck with it!  :beer: 

Cheers,
BB


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## NeilArge (21/5/08)

BB and others,

What would suggest for a mashing regime for this beer? I was planning a temperature step mash (no more than 3 steps) but am I making a rod for my own back? I have one of those keg-like boilers and a reasonably good if improvised mash tun (holds 25 litres). 

Cheers

Neil


BoilerBoy said:


> Yes, I see how that would be a problem, Good luck with it!  :beer:
> 
> Cheers,
> BB


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## NeilArge (21/5/08)

Thanks blackbock. I'll try and up the munich but I guess I hadn't realised that choc malt was just for colour. 

Cheers 

ToG


blackbock said:


> I agree with SJW that having Pils malt as the main base grain is not ideal. I think you really need to get some Vienna in there, or at least up the proportion of Munich. That would also allow you to ditch the choc. It just doesn't seem right adjusting for colour in a Mrzen.
> 
> Regarding the S189, I'm never using it again. For a lager yeast it gives me no good feelings on my tastebuds


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## BoilerBoy (21/5/08)

TunofGrunt said:


> BB and others,
> 
> What would suggest for a mashing regime for this beer? I was planning a temperature step mash (no more than 3 steps) but am I making a rod for my own back? I have one of those keg-like boilers and a reasonably good if improvised mash tun (holds 25 litres).
> 
> ...



I generally do a 20min 52-55C protein rest, then 60 min at 65-66, but a single infusion would be fine, it depends on what your hoping to obtain by doing 3 steps? does that include a mashout?

BB


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## NeilArge (21/5/08)

HI BB

That's kinda what I was planning (from memory). Yes, the third step would be the mash out, perhaps by doing a decoction (might be pushing the envelope on my 3rd brew? :huh: ). I'm just keen to up my efficiency and extraction rates.

Cheers

ToG



BoilerBoy said:


> I generally do a 20min 52-55C protein rest, then 60 min at 65-66, but a single infusion would be fine, it depends on what your hoping to obtain by doing 3 steps? does that include a mashout?
> 
> BB


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## bconnery (21/5/08)

ToG,
w34/70 goes quite well in a malty lager in my experience of one beer...
I did a Helles kind of beer with it recently and was very happy with the result.


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (21/5/08)

bconnery said:


> ToG,
> w34/70 goes quite well in a malty lager in my experience of one beer...
> I did a Helles kind of beer with it recently and was very happy with the result.



Hmm, my latest Helles used the same yeast Ben after the liquid yeast I pitched didn't take off (that was my fault but it is another story :angry: ). I am not a great fan of 34/70 but it was all the local brewshop had at the time.
Curious to see what your grainbill was? Mine is still lagering.

ToG, you could quite easily do a single decoction, not overly hard and would add no more than 30-40 minutes to your brewday.
Should give you more malt backbone however maybe not necessary as you have a % of Melanoidin in your grainbill.
I brewed an Oktoberfest on the weekend with 1% Melanoidin and did a single decoction so it will be interesting to see how it finishes up, I hope for maltiness up the wahzoo  !
I have no experience with S189 so don't know how malty your beer would turn out using this yeast.

C&B
TDA


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## SJW (21/5/08)

> What would suggest for a mashing regime for this beer? I was planning a temperature step mash (no more than 3 steps) but am I making a rod for my own back? I have one of those keg-like boilers and a reasonably good if improvised mash tun (holds 25 litres).
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Neil



I do a protein rest (although its not really required) at 52 for 20 mins then just hit 66 or 67 for 60 to 90 mins, with all that vienna and Munich. 

Steve


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## blackbock (21/5/08)

SJW said:


> I do a protein rest (although its not really required) at 52 for 20 mins then just hit 66 or 67 for 60 to 90 mins, with all that vienna and Munich.
> 
> Steve



Traditionally the sparge for an Oktoberfest is also extremely slow, almost on the scale of hours rather than minutes. 
From what I've heard this can help with improving the resultant wort. ToG I reckon your recipe is looking pretty good, if you take some tips from the lagernuts on AHB it will be even better. 

You'll always remember your first Mrzen (even if it's for the wrong reasons!)

SJW, please don't misunderstand my opinion of S189 - it just wasn't what I look for in a lager yeast. Somehow doesn't taste as clean as W34/70 (but not as boring either)


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## NeilArge (21/5/08)

Ta TDA. I'll try a single decoction just to finish off and just for the thrill  . BTW, I bottled that Helles that was somewhat inspired by yours and Ben's recipe last week. It lagered for c. 5-6 weeks before hand at c. 8 C. Can't wait to try it. 

Cheers

Neil



THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> Hmm, my latest Helles used the same yeast Ben after the liquid yeast I pitched didn't take off (that was my fault but it is another story :angry: ). I am not a great fan of 34/70 but it was all the local brewshop had at the time.
> Curious to see what your grainbill was? Mine is still lagering.
> 
> ToG, you could quite easily do a single decoction, not overly hard and would add no more than 30-40 minutes to your brewday.
> ...


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## NeilArge (21/5/08)

Hi Blackbock,

I have certainly learnt a lot from this forum already on what I thought was going to be a Marzen/Oktoberfest. I am fly sparging and so can drag that out as you suggest. Unfortunately, I'll have to leave most of the tweaking (i.e. trying Munich/Vienna dominant grain bills) until next time, as I am just trying to make the best of what's around at the mo and our local HBS is a might light on for ingredients. And the making will still all be great fun, and I might even get a drinakble beer at the end of it....  . One final thing: I gather no-one would put carapils in this?

Cheers

ToG



blackbock said:


> Traditionally the sparge for an Oktoberfest is also extremely slow, almost on the scale of hours rather than minutes.
> From what I've heard this can help with improving the resultant wort. ToG I reckon your recipe is looking pretty good, if you take some tips from the lagernuts on AHB it will be even better.
> 
> You'll always remember your first Mrzen (even if it's for the wrong reasons!)
> ...


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## NeilArge (21/5/08)

bconnery
I have a couple of sachets of W34/70 on the way to me for this beer, so that's good. I intend rehydrating them before pitching.

Cheers

ToG



bconnery said:


> ToG,
> w34/70 goes quite well in a malty lager in my experience of one beer...
> I did a Helles kind of beer with it recently and was very happy with the result.


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## NeilArge (25/5/08)

Well, just finished putting this baby down, after quite a few changes to the original plan. Did a single infusion at 68C for 90 minutes (probably averaged a degree below this). Did a mash out and then an unexpectedly fly sparge - all over in 30 mins. despite trying to keep it slow. 90 minute boil and 21 litres in the fermenter. A lovely looking and aromatic wort but I am a bit disappointed with the final figures: 1040 into the fermenter. Using a measure for mash efficiency I found in an earlier thread this works out at 47.4% mash efficiency (4.6 kg grain). Any ideas where I might be going wrong? I got what I thought was a good crush (attached) and everything else seemed to be okay (though the sparge was a bit quick).

Cheers

ToG


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## Doc (25/5/08)

TunofGrunt said:


> Did a single infusion at 68C for 90 minutes (probably averaged a degree below this).
> .... an unexpectedly fly sparge - all over in 30 mins.
> 90 minute boil and 21 litres in the fermenter. A
> Using a measure for mash efficiency I found in an earlier thread this works out at 47.4% mash efficiency (4.6 kg grain).
> ...



I think you nailed it in your last sentence. Dependant on your false bottom in your mash tun, a 30 min sparge is a bit fast (esp if fly sparging).
If you are batch sparging you'd be fine (assuming your mash tun design is ok). If you were attempting batch sparging, did you remix the grain in the mash tun after adding more HL ?

Doc


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## SJW (25/5/08)

> 1040 into the fermenter. Using a measure for mash efficiency I found in an earlier thread this works out at 47.4% mash efficiency (4.6 kg grain). Any ideas where I might be going wrong?


Been there , done that bud. First thing, what temp was the wort when you took your OG reading? If your hydrometer is calibrated at 15 deg C it would make a diff of about 8 points or so if it was at 25 deg C. Now, as Doc said, was there any whole /uncracked grain left after the sparge? And for me, after 12 months of brewing trying everthing to raise my eff. the one thing that got me up from 60% to 75%-80% was getting a vessel similar to a s/s keg and putting a s/s false bottom in it. Now I can crush as fine as I want without any stuck sparging. I would argue that if your not hitting at least 70% eff. most of the time and your doing most other thing correctly , look at your mash tun. 
But it will probably be the best beer u ever done.

Steve


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## NeilArge (25/5/08)

Hi Doc
I'm just using the Charlie Papazian lauter tun for the time being - bucket in a bucket. I did recycle several litres of the first runnings before beginning the sparge - don't know if that helps. Also, I could fit all the mash (about 2 cups left in the mash tun) in my lauter tun at once - had to wait until I'd sparged for a while before I could add that in. 

Thanks and cheers

ToG



Doc said:


> I think you nailed it in your last sentence. Dependant on your false bottom in your mash tun, a 30 min sparge is a bit fast (esp if fly sparging).
> If you are batch sparging you'd be fine (assuming your mash tun design is ok). If you were attempting batch sparging, did you remix the grain in the mash tun after adding more HL ?
> 
> Doc


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## NeilArge (25/5/08)

Hi Steve

The wort would have been c. 20C. when I did the OG reading into the fermenter. I did an OG reading of the wort going into the boiler and that was only 1.030 (but I acknowledge that temp. would have been an issue there too). 
No whole grain in the mash - quite a nice porridge. I am starting to get the feeling that I may have to make the step to a full rubbermaid style mashtun with false bottom, instead of the insulated bucket I am currently using, even though it seems to hold the temp. okay, and scrap the 'zapap' lauter tun as well. Running into some capacity problems. False economy maybe?

Like you say though, Steve, I am still excited about this beer....  

Cheers

ToG



SJW said:


> Been there , done that bud. First thing, what temp was the wort when you took your OG reading? If your hydrometer is calibrated at 15 deg C it would make a diff of about 8 points or so if it was at 25 deg C. Now, as Doc said, was there any whole /uncracked grain left after the sparge? And for me, after 12 months of brewing trying everthing to raise my eff. the one thing that got me up from 60% to 75%-80% was getting a vessel similar to a s/s keg and putting a s/s false bottom in it. Now I can crush as fine as I want without any stuck sparging. I would argue that if your not hitting at least 70% eff. most of the time and your doing most other thing correctly , look at your mash tun.
> But it will probably be the best beer u ever done.
> 
> Steve


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## bconnery (26/5/08)

THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> Hmm, my latest Helles used the same yeast Ben after the liquid yeast I pitched didn't take off (that was my fault but it is another story :angry: ). I am not a great fan of 34/70 but it was all the local brewshop had at the time.
> Curious to see what your grainbill was? Mine is still lagering.
> 
> C&B
> TDA


TDA, My grain bill was recalculated on the day due to a shortage of pilsner malt (It was originally intended to be a german pilsner...). 
It isn't quite a Helles and isn't quite a Dortmunder but it was a nice malty lager with a little hop bite. 
For a recipe that was thrown together due to grain availability I was very happy...

I hadn't been a fan of 34/70 in kit/extract days but thought I'd give it a stab now that I had proper temp control. 
It took longer to come good than the s189 beers but it was lovely in the end. 

1800.00 gm Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 40.00 % 
1800.00 gm Pale Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.9 EBC) Grain 40.00 % 
900.00 gm Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (5.9 EBC) Grain 20.00 % 
25.00 gm Smaragd [8.00 %] (40 min) Hops 22.8 IBU 
30.00 gm Smaragd [8.00 %] (10 min) Hops 11.3 IBU


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (26/5/08)

bconnery said:


> TDA, My grain bill was recalculated on the day due to a shortage of pilsner malt (It was originally intended to be a german pilsner...).
> It isn't quite a Helles and isn't quite a Dortmunder but it was a nice malty lager with a little hop bite.
> For a recipe that was thrown together due to grain availability I was very happy...
> 
> ...



Cheers Ben.

The 34/70 has left mine tatsing a little on the underbittered side (only went for 22IBU IIRC). I am hoping that carbonation will balance it out somewhat.
On topic I used the same yeast in an Oktoberfest last year and was underwhelmed in comparison to the liquid lager yeasts I usually use in this style.

C&B
TDA


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## bconnery (26/5/08)

THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> Cheers Ben.
> 
> The 34/70 has left mine tatsing a little on the underbittered side (only went for 22IBU IIRC). I am hoping that carbonation will balance it out somewhat.
> On topic I used the same yeast in an Oktoberfest last year and was underwhelmed in comparison to the liquid lager yeasts I usually use in this style.
> ...


I went a little higher as I thought the combination of the maltier and sweeter munich and vienna malts would warrant it. 
Plus I think I may have been looking to use the last of those hops too possibly.


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## NeilArge (26/5/08)

Drats, TDA! I'll have to invest in a decent liquid yeast next time... My Munich Helles is only a week in the bottle using a cultured Saflager yeast, so I can't comment yet on what profile that has left the beer with.

On topic a bit, would a Rubbermaid style tun with false bottom make that much difference to mash efficiency compared to what I am bumbling away with?

ToG



THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> Cheers Ben.
> 
> The 34/70 has left mine tatsing a little on the underbittered side (only went for 22IBU IIRC). I am hoping that carbonation will balance it out somewhat.
> On topic I used the same yeast in an Oktoberfest last year and was underwhelmed in comparison to the liquid lager yeasts I usually use in this style.
> ...


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## BoilerBoy (26/5/08)

TunofGrunt said:


> On topic a bit, would a Rubbermaid style tun with false bottom make that much difference to mash efficiency compared to what I am bumbling away with?
> 
> ToG



Its not so much the esky you use that will effect efficiency, but the quality of the crush and your sparging method.

What mill are you using?

I would give batch sparging a go if your confident that your crush is ok, 70-75% should be achievable from draining the first runnings and then stirring in the sparge water, but its the grain crush that is crucial.

Cheers,
BB


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## Online Brewing Supplies (26/5/08)

This Marzen is soooo good. 
Zwickel you would come back to WA for this one. Just as you like it , simple grain bill.
53% Wey Vienna
41.5% Wey Munich Dark (Type II)
2.1 % Wey Cara Munich Type 1
3.4 % Wey Acid malt ( to adjust for my water)
Hops
Styrian Goldings @ 60 mins (as used in an old original German recipe)
Hallertau @ 20 mins (personal choice)
IBU 24
Wyeast 2633 Octoberfest blend.

GB


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## NeilArge (27/5/08)

BoilerBoy said:


> Its not so much the esky you use that will effect efficiency, but the quality of the crush and your sparging method.
> 
> What mill are you using?
> 
> ...


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## newguy (27/5/08)

Mashout is typically at about 167F/75C. The higher temps do help with efficiency. The bucket in a bucket "zapap" lauter tun didn't work for me at all when I first started AG. I had the opposite problem with it: every batch was stuck.


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## NeilArge (28/5/08)

It's only been a couple of days since I pitched W34/70 into my marzen-style lager but I can tell it doesn't like the cold that much. I've had it out in the shed where it has been sitting c. a mean temp. of 7-8 C, but there has been little activity. By the end of the day once the ambient temp. has lifted there is more activity in the airlock but I've had to bring the whole thing inside to get it going (temp. in back bathroom is c. 10 C). Makes me think I should have cultured up a lager from one of my earlier brews sitting in the shed, which has worked under the punishing Armidale conditions....
Cheers

ToG


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## NeilArge (28/5/08)

newguy said:


> Mashout is typically at about 167F/75C. The higher temps do help with efficiency. The bucket in a bucket "zapap" lauter tun didn't work for me at all when I first started AG. I had the opposite problem with it: every batch was stuck.


Yes, I've wondered if I have too many holes in my lauter tun, or they're the wrong diameter, but I did follow CP's instructions closely. I think I'll just try a finer crush and better control over the sparge water going in and the liquor going into the boiler (i.e. more hose clamps).

Cheers

ToG


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (28/5/08)

TunofGrunt said:


> It's only been a couple of days since I pitched W34/70 into my marzen-style lager but I can tell it doesn't like the cold that much. I've had it out in the shed where it has been sitting c. a mean temp. of 7-8 C, but there has been little activity. By the end of the day once the ambient temp. has lifted there is more activity in the airlock but I've had to bring the whole thing inside to get it going (temp. in back bathroom is c. 10 C). Makes me think I should have cultured up a lager from one of my earlier brews sitting in the shed, which has worked under the punishing Armidale conditions....
> Cheers
> 
> ToG



ToG, how much yeast did you pitch and what temperature did you pitch it at?
Not totally experienced with dry lager yeasts but the 3 times I have used them I have pitched two sachets at temperatures of 12C twice and 17C. The two that I pitched at 12C fired up within 12 hours. The one I pitched at 17C (S189) I am still waiting for action as I only pitched it into a wort last night.
If you have any experience with liquid yeast I can send you a sample and you could try and build it up for your next attempt.

C&B
TDA


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## NeilArge (28/5/08)

THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> ToG, how much yeast did you pitch and what temperature did you pitch it at?
> Not totally experienced with dry lager yeasts but the 3 times I have used them I have pitched two sachets at temperatures of 12C twice and 17C. The two that I pitched at 12C fired up within 12 hours. The one I pitched at 17C (S189) I am still waiting for action as I only pitched it into a wort last night.
> If you have any experience with liquid yeast I can send you a sample and you could try and build it up for your next attempt.
> 
> ...


 Hi TDA

I pitched two sachets, cultured up and rehydrated in two brown long necks the day before. I pitched them at 15C (wort temp.) and by the next morning there was activity  . But whenever I have checked in the morning (and it gets down to single digit figures in the shed) there is nothing. So, bringing it into the bathroom next door has seen it lift its game. But the helles I made a month ago went well and was just a saflager yeast cultured up from a lager I made late last year. Funny. Anyway, thanks for the offer but all seems to be going okay now. I guess I can't be 100% sure that some CO2 hasn't been pushing past the airlock either. If it wasn't too much hassle or expense (I'd repay you somehow!) it'd be great to get a liquid lager yeast. I have used starters before, so no drama there.

Cheers

ToG


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## Steve Lacey (28/5/08)

ToG, I'd certainly be looking for a location where the temp is closer to 10 than 7 and where the diurnal temp fluctuations are evened out by some thick walls.

Which part of Armidale are you in? I have many happy memories of my 4 years at uni there and a further year living and working on Newholme out in the shadow of Mt Duval...a far cry from metropolitan Tokyo, I can tell you ... sorry, not meaning to hijack the thread. Is the Wicklow still standing?


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## NeilArge (28/5/08)

Hi Steve

I think I may have just slightly unfairly maligned 34/70. It's now bubbling away steadily at an ambient 10C in the bathroom, and that is where I will keep it. So, my fault  .
Always great to hear from a fellow (ex) Armidalian! I live on South Hill (not the posh part though...). What did you study? I lecture up at the uni (known locally as 'malfunction junction').

The Wicklow is still standing and serving a peculiar variety of beers on tap, not that I get there much (too much truly excellent home brew to drink :lol: ). What are you doing in Tokyo (pm if you like).

Cheers

ToG

quote name='Steve Lacey' date='May 28 2008, 12:13 PM' post='318886']
ToG, I'd certainly be looking for a location where the temp is closer to 10 than 7 and where the diurnal temp fluctuations are evened out by some thick walls.

Which part of Armidale are you in? I have many happy memories of my 4 years at uni there and a further year living and working on Newholme out in the shadow of Mt Duval...a far cry from metropolitan Tokyo, I can tell you ... sorry, not meaning to hijack the thread. Is the Wicklow still standing?
[/quote]


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