# Wow....how much better is All Grain Brewing?



## Mall (4/9/14)

Hi all,

I've done 5-6 AG brews 

recently and have been very happy with the results, mostly IPA's including a recent English IPA, compliments to Dr Smurto's recipe. 

Last night I opened a JS Amber clone (from HBS recipe, 12 months old, bottled, great at the time.....) and was stunned by the difference.

The older brew whilst tasting great at the time, now lacks in so many areas. AG is full of body, amazing head retention, in your face hop taste and just better.

I'm glad I switched..


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## MartinOC (4/9/14)

Welcome to the Vortex... :beerbang:

No going back now. It's gonna make cheap beer soooo much more expensive whilst you explore the permutations...


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## Diggs (4/9/14)

Much better.


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## Adr_0 (4/9/14)

Yeah. Depth of flavour, fermentation, head, colour control.. Get to fiddle.  

Glad you are enjoying. IPA's are just the tip of the iceberg... Or slippery slope...


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## Cocko (4/9/14)




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## SmallFry (4/9/14)

It's at least 3 points better. Possibly 4.


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## Cocko (4/9/14)

SmallFry said:


> It's at least 3 points better. Possibly 4.


internets points yeah?


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## Stuwort (4/9/14)

I've gone from K&k to extract to BIAB and am now doing step mashes with my setup. Bloody loving it and can't believe how easy it is to acquire the knowledge needed to make good beer. Next step is to start using liquid yeasts now that I can rinse and re use my yeast. 

Now to convince Wifey that a Kegerator is a great investment...........


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## Tahoose (4/9/14)

Stuwort said:


> I've gone from K&k to extract to BIAB and am now doing step mashes with my setup. Bloody loving it and can't believe how easy it is to acquire the knowledge needed to make good beer. Next step is to start using liquid yeasts now that I can rinse and re use my yeast.
> 
> Now to convince Wifey that a Kegerator is a great investment...........


The easiest way I can think of, enlist her help to wash, rinse, fill and cap a couple of full size batches. Explain that with her help the job will be done and you can spend the hour of time you gained doing that thing she wanted to do...


Then after a couple of batches (by this point she hates bottling) explain how if you had kegs, you could do the same amount of packaging in 1/4 of the time and you wouldn't need to store 10 slabs of empty bottles.


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## Spiesy (5/9/14)

Only way to fly.


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## amarks6 (9/9/14)

Hope I'm posting this in the right place. If not, someone please tell me.

I was looking at this setup: http://www.blichmannengineering.com/products/breweasy

Then I figured that I should be able to achieve the same process with my existing 3V system - cut back to 2V.

I have a 75 L Blichmann boiler fired by an Italian spiral burner plus a 38L cooler mash tun (fitted with a Blichmann autosparge) and a pump.

Why can't I heat all the water for a brew up to strike temp - then transfer half of it to the mash tun, add the grain. Leave the remaining water in the boiler. Then simply start recirculating the wort from the mash tun (via gravity) to the boiler and from the boiler (via pump) to the autosparge?

This should enable me to do step mashes - providing I can ramp up the boiler temp reasonably quickly.

If this works, why would I want a HERMS or RIMS heat exchange device?

Am I missing something obvious?

Thanks guys.


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## stm (9/9/14)

You are better off starting a new thread in Gear and Equipment, with a useful subject line.


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## Vini2ton (9/9/14)

It's the control factor. There's much more in between stuff that has an outcome. I can hear stewie from family guy saying that.


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## Redracer (10/9/14)

Agree 1000% with the difference to AG. Just did my first AG batch a few weeks ago and am impressed with the results. Did have the following observations on brew day:

Hose clamps are a necessity, not optional, when transferring wort.
Don't be too concerned about over shooting mash temps. It's probably harder to get mash water and grain up to proper mash temp than it is to add some cool water.
On a nice spring day bees are attracted to sweet things....who knew???
Glad I made the plunge and look forward to many more successful brews.


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## Not For Horses (10/9/14)

7 Better.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (10/9/14)

Totes


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## rheffera (10/9/14)

Redracer said:


> Agree 1000% with the difference to AG. Just did my first AG batch a few weeks ago and am impressed with the results. Did have the following observations on brew day:
> 
> Hose clamps are a necessity, not optional, when transferring wort.
> Don't be too concerned about over shooting mash temps. It's probably harder to get mash water and grain up to proper mash temp than it is to add some cool water.
> ...


In my case it's flies, but hey...it tells me ive had conversion


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## verysupple (10/9/14)

You sure do have a lot more freedom when brewing AG, and it's a lot more fun. However, I don't think my AG beers are any better than my all-extract beers, just more varied in terms of malt complexity etc.

I think the main reason your AG brew is so much better than your JS Amber is because it's fresher. I wouldn't expect one of someone's earlier brews to hold up too well over a year because usually when we start out we haven't really got our processes worked out and get a fair bit of oxidation happening.

Don't get me wrong, AG brewing is awesome. I just believe that a good brewer is a good brewer and a good beer is a good beer regardless of the method used to make it. After a few AG brews people tend to make better beers - partly because they've learned more and not only because of the ingredients or method. Once you've made a few more AG brews and you're getting consistent results, go back and try an all-extract batch and see how it turns out. It's amazing how much you learn doing AG that actually applies to extract brewing. :icon_cheers:


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## Blind Dog (10/9/14)

The one thing you can't do with extract is control the mash as it's already been done for you and that alone can make a massive difference.


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## verysupple (10/9/14)

Blind Dog said:


> The one thing you can't do with extract is control the mash as it's already been done for you and that alone can make a massive difference.


That's very true. However you can adjust the fermentability of extract batches using things like simple sugars and maltodextrin. 

My question is how accurately do you control your mash temp., thickness, pH, etc.? I think the companies making the extract are much more consistent than most home brewers - especially ones with only a few brews under their belt. At least when you buy some extract you know what you're getting. It's great for perfecting fermentation as you know the wort is reliable and predictable. How many posts do we see where the OP is asking why their FG is so high and they brew extract? Not many by my count - the fermentability is at least predictable. They don'y have to worry about their thermometer being 10oC out or something silly like that.


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## Digger11 (10/9/14)

Im with verysupple. AG is more fun and gives more variety, but i struggle to taste much difference to a well brewed extract with extras.


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## Spiesy (11/9/14)

verysupple said:


> My question is how accurately do you control your mash temp., thickness, pH, etc.?


With a good thermometer, water report, software, salts, Acidulated malt and a pH meter (or strips), there's no reason you can't control it just as well. 

You get out what you put in... most of the time.


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## Eagleburger (11/9/14)

I started on ag. As I was developing equipment and it was out of action, I did a few kits. I am a little disappointed to say the kits and peices were as good as my ag. 

The biggest factor in good beer is fermentation temp. I read that when I first started and I wasreminded recently. I did two cubes of ale, one I pitched at 21degC because I was impatient, the other at 17.5degC. The taste difference is astounding.


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## verysupple (11/9/14)

Eagleburger said:


> <snip>
> 
> The biggest factor in good beer is fermentation temp. <snip>


I definitely agree. However I'd add to fermentation temp. and say that fermentation over-all is the most important part. That includes oxygenation, pitching rate, having good healthy yeast, etc. and adequate warm maturation.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (11/9/14)

I third that. I've been doing the lotto beers and the biggest difference in beers is fermentation based - either diacetyl, fusels or other fermentation based issues.

The beers that come out on top are from brewers that have got _that_ aspect sorted out.


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## Mall (11/9/14)

The purchase of a spare fridge along with temperature controller was, for me, a great step. Stick fermentor/s in at 18 degrees and come back in two weeks, any time of year....simple.

Dry Hop to suit.


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## thisispants (11/9/14)

Yep, I've made multiple extract brews and have now done 3 all grain. When I taste my extract beer it tastes like something is missing. My all grain brews have more body, better taste, more complexity, much better. I guess it could mean that when it comes to extract I have no idea, however this is my experience.


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## TheBigD (11/9/14)

Stuwort said:


> Now to convince Wifey that a Kegerator is a great investment...........


Remember Its easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission


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## Blind Dog (11/9/14)

Personally I think it's a little silly to say that any one aspect of the brewing process is the most important. For me, being able to accurately control the mash (pH, length, temp...) has made just as much difference to the quality of the beers I brew as having the ability to control fermentation temperature, and neither would mean a thing if I wasn't totally anal about cleaning and sanitation from beginning to end. And the list could go on and on. Maybe because the ability to mash with control came before the fridge, my experience is different?

And no I'm not saying that you can't brew excellent beers from extract, cos that patently stupid.


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## Eagleburger (11/9/14)

I like AG brewing and now I have a HERMS and PID control, I am now making beer exactly the way I like it.


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## poggor (14/9/14)

i agree with pants- i feel it's easier to get body with grain than with extract. also, and someone might be able to correct me on this, i found it very hard to get very pale beers with extracts- always tended towards amber.


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## Smokomark (14/9/14)

My worst ag beer shits all over my best kit/extract.


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## verysupple (15/9/14)

poggor said:


> i agree with pants- i feel it's easier to get body with grain than with extract. also, and someone might be able to correct me on this, i found it very hard to get very pale beers with extracts- always tended towards amber.


I never had those problems when I was doing extract brewing. It completely depends on the extract you're using though. Briess Pilsen extract is very pale - paler than any commercial Pilsner I ever bought. I mainly used Briess extracts and didn't notice any problems with body. In fact my main problem was getting them to finish dry enough.


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## Pilchard (15/9/14)

Tahoose said:


> The easiest way I can think of, enlist her help to wash, rinse, fill and cap a couple of full size batches. Explain that with her help the job will be done and you can spend the hour of time you gained doing that thing she wanted to do...
> 
> 
> Then after a couple of batches (by this point she hates bottling) explain how if you had kegs, you could do the same amount of packaging in 1/4 of the time and you wouldn't need to store 10 slabs of empty bottles.


This is what happened here, she, from the goodness of her heart helped bottle so it went quicker........ I showed her how to fill the first keg and got a head slap as it was much easier less time consuming and she only need watch... And I'll quote ' why didn't you get kegs from the start'.....


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## Tahoose (16/9/14)

Pilchard said:


> This is what happened here, she, from the goodness of her heart helped bottle so it went quicker........ I showed her how to fill the first keg and got a head slap as it was much easier less time consuming and she only need watch... And I'll quote ' why didn't you get kegs from the start'.....


The best one, is "baby don't buy any more brew gear, just save up for the braumeister and you won't need to spend any more money after that"

I'm going to have to marry her.


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## The Bearded Troll (23/9/14)

Oooooh that smell


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## pist (23/9/14)

I agree, all grain is the beez knees! All that control you have over the body, fermentability etc, and the variety of styles you can make with AG is incredible.
Whilst I do agree it is possible to make a half decent beer using extract (drinking one now that I done as a keg filler), I couldn't go back for these reasons.
Welcome to the dark side mall, enjoy the fast slide down the slippery slope!


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## storeboughtcheeseburgers (27/9/14)

You can only go so far with Extract. I think of it as cordial compared to AG.. prob a bit harsh, but I don't really see extract as real beer anymore. :\

And im still new, prob 5-10 AG down!

I did make an awful cloudy IPA in learning how important temp control is.. it is probably not as good as extract as its a bit of a fruity gingery disgusting thing really.

But these things happen. I got a temp controller and did a brew and found it takes a lot of stress out of the brewing process. I've conquered liquid yeast and starters, bought a stir plate.. the only part of AG I haven't dabbled in is water and PHs or step mashes.. or diacetyl management (haven't done an all grain pilsener).. Its nice to have a few things to learn but. Keeps it interesting. Thinking about doing a pilsener, but I don't think I will for a while - the wait time is a big downer .


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