# Beersmith Vs Promash



## Back Yard Brewer (28/11/07)

After chatting to Ross yesterday I decided to download the trial version of BeerSmith. I have a copy of ProMash as well. I must comment at this stage how easier BeerSmith seems to use. Like ProMash there is a wealth of info.The BeerSmith platform seems a lot easier to navigate around. Of course it will take some time to make use of all the info, but as a start I am impressed. Was wondering what the consensus on both is from brewers on this forum. I may open the wallet and get BeerSmith. 

BYB


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## braufrau (28/11/07)

Back Yard Brewer said:


> After chatting to Ross yesterday I decided to download the trial version of BeerSmith. I have a copy of ProMash as well. I must comment at this stage how easier BeerSmith seems to use. Like ProMash there is a wealth of info.The BeerSmith platform seems a lot easier to navigate around. Of course it will take some time to make use of all the info, but as a start I am impressed. Was wondering what the consensus on both is from brewers on this forum. I may open the wallet and get BeerSmith.
> 
> BYB




I love BeerSmith. Couldn't make any sense out of promash!


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## kevnlis (28/11/07)

In my life I have never paid for any software.. except Beersmith. It has been a great tool in improving my AG brews and I would not trade it for the world 

I have had a bit of a play with Promash but found it a bit mundane. No thats not Anthony


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## Fatgodzilla (28/11/07)

kevnlis said:


> In my life I have never paid for any software.. except Beersmith. It has been a great tool in improving my AG brews and I would not trade it for the world
> 
> I have had a bit of a play with Promash but found it a bit mundane. No thats not Anthony




Beersmith is a simple tool to play with. It's not the definitive answer but it will satisfy your needs until your needs get bigger. That said I've seen the Promash recipe system and those who know how to use it, use it well. 

If you are not a geek, use Beersmith. It'll help.

If you are more than average around computer software and really into that type of thing, Promash will probably be your huckleberry.

Horses for courses.


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## blackbock (28/11/07)

I would argue that far from being a beginners tool, Beersmith is actually much more flexible and superior software to Promash (have tried both...) If anything, Beersmith is geekier.


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## Fatgodzilla (28/11/07)

blackbock said:


> I would argue that far from being a beginners tool, Beersmith is actually much more flexible and superior software to Promash (have tried both...) If anything, Beersmith is geekier.



Your call, I think Beersmith more user friendly for old farts like me. I couldn't easily work out Promash, but seen how good the results are for people who use it well.


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## Fents (28/11/07)

I've tried all three. Beersmith, Promash and Beer tools pro. Im by no means a geek, but i do work with computers and software everyday for work.

Beersmith for me was the easiest by far, but thats just for me dosn't mean everyone will find it easy. Beer Tools pro is good though i love playing round in it from time to time.

As for the boundaries of brewing capabilities in each of the programs...?

Its like making music with software...fruity loops (music making program) is called the kids way to make music and yet heaps of pro's use it and make great music and swear by it. why? at the end of the day its all about the person on the keyboard and what they can do and creativity they create.


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## Back Yard Brewer (28/11/07)

kevnlis said:


> In my life I have never paid for any software.. except Beersmith.




I am in the same boat. But I may soon take your lead.

BYB


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## kevnlis (28/11/07)

I am a "geek" and have a very high understanding of computers and all involved. I still think Promash is a bit antiquated and far inferior to Beersmith. Not only in ease of use but the options available to the brewer, if you dig deep enough there are alot of excellent tools in Beersmith!

EDIT: Spelling


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## beers (28/11/07)

I own copies of both Beersmith & Beertools Pro. I tend to gravitate towards Beersmith (but that may be just because I started out using it first). Beersmith does have a few glitches (like post boil additions of fermentables affecting the efficiency into the kettle for example) but overall it's a great, & easy enough to use program.


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## lonte (28/11/07)

I too am ex-ProMash, now BeerSmith. I had a good hard look at BeerToolsPro and nearly went that way exclusively until BeerSmith 1.4 came out and more or less made up the feature gap between the two, and BTP was still lacking a thing or two I liked about BeerSmith. That said an update of BTP is apparently due "Real Soon Now" ...


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## lucas (28/11/07)

promash may be a fantastic program (I dont know), but if there's one thing that can be said about it, it's that they need to dump the entire GUI and start over. It looks and feels like you're using a windows 3.11 application.


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## Andrew (28/11/07)

Beersmith or Promash - it doesn't matter squat - YOU brew the beer not the program. It is MERELY a tool. A number cruncher and a database, that's all.
Interestingly most (OK, all I have met) professional (who truly do it and only IT for a living) microbrewers use Promash. (please excuse all the brackets). (Sorry).
Why?
Could be familiarity - what is the norm in the past/pretty well bombproof/if it ain't broke don't fix it.
Could be that because the Men In Black in Excise (If you've been been visited by them you'll know exactly what I mean) are happy with Promash as an approved suitable data management system from an excise perspective, naturally you would have all this data stored in hard/paper Excise approved format (of course, we dare not think otherwise).
Don't use it just because the pro's do, though.
When discussing brew ideas, pretty well all experienced microbrewers I have been fortunate to have met can do a lot of the calcs to a reasonable standard in their remaining brain cell anyway.
If it records what you did, lets you plan what you want to do, and keeps a track of what you have in stock, then use it.
MOST importantly, use it to improve your beer, to be consistent, to approach things analytically, not just 'Hey, lets try this for shits and giggles this time'.
Even more importantly, if you are going to swing by the Steam Exchange, drop off a stubby - down here we get heaps of old codgers telling us how fantastic their beers are (apparently you can use a kilo of home brand sugar instead of the official CSR stuff, and its just as good :huh: ), but aren't willing to actually give us a sample...

Cheers & Beers


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## mika (28/11/07)

Is there a list of feature comparisons between the relative software anywhere ?
I'm a Promash user and find it more than adequate for the job, got a bunch of things in there that I'll probably never use, so wondering what are all these 'excellent tools' that people mention ?


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## Hutch (28/11/07)

I bought ProMash (a somewhat naive move) because so many people seemed to be using it, and posting recipe info generated by it.
As many have commented, it is antiquated and hard to use.
I'm an embedded software engineer, and used to dealing with hard-to-use software.
When it comes to brewing, I don't want a brain workout just navigating the software.
I'm thinking of going to BeerSmith.

By the way, if you want basic software that's VERY easy to use, and FREE :excl: have a look at QBrew.


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## PistolPatch (29/11/07)

I downloaded both trial versions and ended up buying BeerSmith. Promash I never got my head around but I was educated by Beersmithers. 

I have written some database-based programs for some awkward businesses in the past just using Microsoft Access and so I'm a little surprised that these brewing programs have some very basic flaws...

1. You cannot open two or more recipes at once. (So you can't compare two or more recipes or anything to do with them on screen.)

2. You cannot even open a tool without having to close your recipe view. How annoying is that? I find myself having to write down answers from a tool with pen and paper and then re-type them in an appropriate section. WTF?

Here's just one example...

I reckon a good program should enable you to type in your desired IBU's (in Recipe View), your AA rating and then for it to tell you how many grams of hops are needed. At the moment you have to type in your grams and see how many IBU's you score in a totally dedicated window! It's like a game of twenty questions though you do get better at it.

After seeing what just one or two people did here (Phrak and AdamT) with the BIAB spreadsheet in such a short time, I'm sure that AHBrs, as a collaborative effort, could come up with something far superior to Beersmith or Promash. In fact, from memory, I think Phrak and Adamt actually solved the above hop problem in that little spreadsheet.

If they can do it then why can't the wealth of IT people on this forum collaborate and produce something that excels these programs?

I'm sure many people would really enjoy contributing and I'd certainly love to see the end result! Be great fun and a real notch under AHB's belt.

Could be a Wikki thingo???

Pat

PS If there's any support for this idea then I'll alert Phrak as he has some skills in co-ordinating collaborative computer efforts.


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## The King of Spain (29/11/07)

PP, its after 11pm :lol:


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## domonsura (29/11/07)

And a damn good after 11pm post is it too.....all good points raised Pat. I've often thought that Promash was just a little unwieldy and backwards in this respect, the only thing is though if you are using only one hops addition, then you could request an IBU and have it tell you the correct amount to add, but it would get difficult the minute you started adding more hops additions, because it would be near impossible to have software work that out intuitively unless it was doing so in reference to a set recipe - ie: the program proportionally scaling a set hop bill up or down to hit a requested IBU.
Then add in the variables that differing grainbill and brew size, evaporation etc that affect the final IBU would make, things would start to get very complicated and probably not work. (well I don't reckon it would work...)

Nice idea though


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## bconnery (29/11/07)

PistolPatch said:


> 1. You cannot open two or more recipes at once. (So you can't compare two or more recipes or anything to do with them on screen.)
> Beersmith or Promash.



This is a big one. This leads on too, the most annoying thing I find is that you can't open a recipe and your inventory (unless there's a way I don't know about)
So if I am making last minute changes or trying to knock up a recipe from what I have you can restrict what appears to only inventory items, but you can't see how much of those items you have... Again, unless there's a way I haven't found yet. To be honest, I haven't spent a long time trying to do it, which perhaps I should...

But yes, another one for beersmith, particularly as I started using it as an extract/mini mash brewer, for whom it excels, particularly 1.4...


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## Wrenny (29/11/07)

Beersmith all the way. Love that program.

It's like a visual aid for my brewing fantasies while I'm at work.

I love being able to look back at all the recipes I have brewed, and plan for what's to come next.


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## AndrewQLD (29/11/07)

> 1. You cannot open two or more recipes at once. (So you can't compare two or more recipes or anything to do with them on screen.)



2 clicks on the back or forward button will allow you to flick between 2 recipes if you have opened them both one after the other.



> 2. You cannot even open a tool without having to close your recipe view. How annoying is that? I find myself having to write down answers from a tool with pen and paper and then re-type them in an appropriate section. WTF?



When using one of the tools from within the recipe view, click on the tool required, enter the data ect and get your result. You can then flick back and forth between your recipe view and the tool using the forward and backward buttons at the top of the page.




> At the moment you have to type in your grams and see how many IBU's you score in a totally dedicated window! It's like a game of twenty questions though you do get better at it.



You can adjust your hop amounts up and down from the recipe view in Beersmith, the IBU's are updated automatically and displayed in the beer profile section directly below the ingredients box, so it's all on one screen.


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## AndrewQLD (29/11/07)

bconnery said:


> This is a big one. This leads on too, the most annoying thing I find is that you can't open a recipe and your inventory (unless there's a way I don't know about)
> So if I am making last minute changes or trying to knock up a recipe from what I have you can restrict what appears to only inventory items, but you can't see how much of those items you have... Again, unless there's a way I haven't found yet. To be honest, I haven't spent a long time trying to do it, which perhaps I should...
> 
> But yes, another one for beersmith, particularly as I started using it as an extract/mini mash brewer, for whom it excels, particularly 1.4...



If you click on the find button at the top of the main page (binoculars) you will get the "find recipes by ingredient" this tool is great if you want to make something from what you have on hand in inventory. This will only search and scan for recipes from within the recipe folder you are in and not the whole recipe data base. Or again it's just a case of using the back and forward buttons to flick between your recipe and the inventory screen.


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## SJW (29/11/07)

Beersmith all the way for me. Its great. Now I have over 60 brews saved I just go thru them and choose one and click "duplicate recipe", rename it and tweek it a bit and print out the recipe and the brew day page and put them in a folder for brew day and for future ref. Very easy stuff, and I dont know why U would need anything more complex than Beersmith. And for $30 US it will be the cheapest bit of brew kit u will ever own.

Steve


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## lonte (29/11/07)

PistolPatch said:


> I reckon a good program should enable you to type in your desired IBU's (in Recipe View), your AA rating and then for it to tell you how many grams of hops are needed.



Beersmith has a button on the tool bar that allows entry of an IBU and it will attempt to modify hop quantities to meet that. For single hop additions it works perfectly, if there are multiple additions it does spread the increase over all of them.

Edit: there are similar buttons to adjust colour and gravity too.


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## Screwtop (29/11/07)

AndrewQLD said:


> 2 clicks on the back or forward button will allow you to flick between 2 recipes if you have opened them both one after the other.
> When using one of the tools from within the recipe view, click on the tool required, enter the data ect and get your result. You can then flick back and forth between your recipe view and the tool using the forward and backward buttons at the top of the page.
> You can adjust your hop amounts up and down from the recipe view in Beersmith, the IBU's are updated automatically and displayed in the beer profile section directly below the ingredients box, so it's all on one screen.



Some handy tips Andrew. 

For PP's hop bitterness use Andrews description above. Also you can enter any amount of hops for bittering, then use the bitterness tool to set the bitterness for the recipe to adjust the hop amount automatically. The bitterness tool also shows the style bitterness parameters. The scaling tools are great on both Beersmith and Promash.

Something I find useful with Beersmith is that you can enter units in any denomination and the entry will be converted to the current Beersmith unit setting. Great when using US recipes , mass units for instance, enter 8lb as your amount of base malt and this will be converted automatically to 3.63Kg or 4oz of Crystal which returns 110g. The same for volume measurements units, enter 4G returning 15.14 Litres, remember though that input Gallons are US.

Screwy


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## Cortez The Killer (29/11/07)

I use promash - i suppose just because i've got my head around it and the familiarity factor

I did have a go at beersmith but didn't like it after having used promash for a while

I may give it another go - but I find that promash does everything i need it to do and i've tweaked everything nicely in there for my system

Also the windows 3.11 format is very nostalgic and comforting  

I personally think its a matter of what you get used to using - both programs are essentially just calculators and only a small step in the whole brewing process

There are a couple of things that could make promash a little more user friendly in its interface - but at the end of the day it'll do pretty much what you want it to

Cheers


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## Stuster (29/11/07)

Cortez The Killer said:


> I personally think its a matter of what you get used to using - both programs are essentially just calculators and only a small step in the whole brewing process
> 
> There are a couple of things that could make promash a little more user friendly in its interface - but at the end of the day it'll do pretty much what you want it to



I agree that they're pretty similar, both work fine and it's really only personal taste which one is easier to use. The one advantage Beersmith has is that it's still getting updated from time to time. Promash has just been abandoned by its author it seems with no more updates in a very long time AFAIK. To me, that's a good enough reason to get Beersmith over Promash, but you really won't go wrong with either.


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## bconnery (29/11/07)

AndrewQLD said:


> If you click on the find button at the top of the main page (binoculars) you will get the "find recipes by ingredient" this tool is great if you want to make something from what you have on hand in inventory. This will only search and scan for recipes from within the recipe folder you are in and not the whole recipe data base. Or again it's just a case of using the back and forward buttons to flick between your recipe and the inventory screen.
> 
> View attachment 16229


Cheers Andrew...
While that didn't quite get to what I was after it did make me think, and sure enough if I had taken the time to look harder, which as I said I hadn't and should, the answer to what I want is there...
The add ingredients view has an amount column, it is just off screen...A quick customize of the columns puts inventory where I want it...


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## AndrewQLD (29/11/07)

There are a lot of little tricks in Beersmith that aren't too well known.

This might help you Pat


> 1. You cannot open two or more recipes at once. (So you can't compare two or more recipes or anything to do with them on screen.)



Select a recipe you want to view and from the "view" drop down menu click on "preview item in new window" this opens that recipe in a new window, you can then go into the recipe view of any other recipe you want to compare them. You can open up quite a few but it does get a little cramped.


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## Jazman (29/11/07)

Both are good programs and i do prefer promash maybe because i got use to it but as stu o don't there is any more support or updates for promash


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## Zierschy (29/11/07)

lucas said:


> promash may be a fantastic program (I dont know), but if there's one thing that can be said about it, it's that they need to dump the entire GUI and start over. It looks and feels like you're using a windows 3.11 application.



+1

To me the Pro-mash GUI feels home-made but the Beersmith GUI is closer to most commercial software, but I am looking forward to trying the next version of Beer Tools Pro, hope they have a demo version!


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## PistolPatch (29/11/07)

Thought I better squeeze in here before 11pm 

Just been reading through all the useful info above.

AndrewQLD sounds like the master of Beersmith and I think should run seminars for us around the country. Screwtop could maybe be the guest speaker?

Andrew that last tip of yours is brilliant. I have two screens on my computer so it will work a treat.

Unfortunately, Beersmith is on my old computer which seems to be have gone on long service leave. I had better get it working again so as I can try out all the above suggestions.

One question...

As SJW so rightly mentioned, Beersmith is one the cheapest brewing tools we'll ever own. I'm wondering, would there be any advantage in owning two licences? For example, if you had both, 'Beermiths,' open, would any changes made in one update the other? Would it be worth the $30?

Thanks,
Pat


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## shonky (29/11/07)

I'm a promasher, but only because this was the first one that I used.

One tip, if you want to open more than one recipe or session just run another copy of the program, I have had at least 3 going on my 95 laptop (only used on brew day) with no dramas.

Happy brewing

BTW (just read PP's post) you don't need multiple licenses to run more than one copy of Promash at once


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## PistolPatch (29/11/07)

Just enlarged Andrew's pic shonky and I see it is only a recipe view. Good but not still quite what I was after. I really want to be able to work on and change figures in at least two windows simultaneously just like you can work on two spreadsheets at once in Excel.

I didn't realise ProMash allowed multiple openings. That has to be a huge advantage and certainly one that I had never heard of before. Thanks shonky.

AndrewQLD: On enlargemnent of your screenshot I noticed the tab HTFU plisner. What does HFTU mean?

 
Pat


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## mika (29/11/07)

Ok, while we're on the "Things I hate about Promash" bandwagon. Copying recipes is a bit longwinded (at least the way I do it), open up a session, open up ingredients, change something so that when you click save it asks you if you'd like to save a copy. Is this the only way ?


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## AndrewQLD (30/11/07)

> As SJW so rightly mentioned, Beersmith is one the cheapest brewing tools we'll ever own. I'm wondering, would there be any advantage in owning two licences? For example, if you had both, 'Beermiths,' open, would any changes made in one update the other? Would it be worth the $30?



Pat, owning the one license I believe allows you to use a second copy of Beersmith on a second machine, but they would not be integrated and any changes to one would not affect the other.

HTFU= harden the [email protected]#$ up. This Pilsner was made using Zwickels multi step mash on my herms which took a bit out of me on the day (it was a double brewday).

Cheers
Andrew


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## Lukes (30/11/07)

Here is a link to the software poll from last year.

I am a happy Beersmith user and run it on 2 computers.
Like most things in modern brewing it's come a long way fast.

Brad also has tips & heaps of support on his site + no shortage of recipes to get you started or compare to your idea's.

A few of them are from Andrew and other Aussie brewers here too.  

Hope it helps

- Luke


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## AndrewQLD (6/12/07)

Just imported my label into Beersmith, you need to do a bit of editing of your label in a web page designer program like Frontpage ect. and save the file in the beersmith templates folder and also a copy in ""C:\Documents and Settings\{Your_login)\Local Settings\Temp" where {Your_login} is your login name. 

Then open Beersmith and select Tools, options, reports then click "add" and browse for the file you saved in the reports folder.
And here is the outcome, if you have edited your label correctly Beersmith will put the name of the beer into the label for you.


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## Screwtop (6/12/07)

AndrewQLD said:


> Just imported my label into Beersmith, you need to do a bit of editing of your label in a web page designer program like Frontpage ect. and save the file in the beersmith templates folder and also a copy in ""C:\Documents and Settings\{Your_login)\Local Settings\Temp" where {Your_login} is your login name.
> 
> Then open Beersmith and select Tools, options, reports then click "add" and browse for the file you saved in the reports folder.
> And here is the outcome, if you have edited your label correctly Beersmith will put the name of the beer into the label for you.
> View attachment 16430




Very Nice Andrew!!!!


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## braufrau (6/12/07)

PistolPatch said:


> Unfortunately, Beersmith is on my old computer which seems to be have gone on long service leave. I had better get it working again so as I can try out all the above suggestions.
> 
> One question...
> 
> As SJW so rightly mentioned, Beersmith is one the cheapest brewing tools we'll ever own. I'm wondering, would there be any advantage in owning two licences? For example, if you had both, 'Beermiths,' open, would any changes made in one update the other? Would it be worth the $30?



One of the nice things about Beersmith is it doesn't fiddle with your registry or install DLLs in the system folder so you
can keep it on a flash stick, which is what I do, and then I can use it on my desktop and on HWMBOs laptop (handy on brew day) and bring it to work to consult recipes when I ring the HBS.

When I've bottled a brew I back the whole beersmith folder up to my desktop, just in case.


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