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MattW

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G'day All,

When using a yeast starter do you need to reduce the wort volume by the starter volume so as to end up at 23lts or 25lt. By this I mean if I use a 1.5 or 2lt starter do I use less water when first mixing up the other ingredients?

Also if I use dry yeast should I always re-hydrate it first? I have never done this and my brews have never really show much activity through the airlock but the hydrometer shows fermentation in the normal timeframe e.g. 5 - 7days.

Thanks Matt
 
Hi Matt,

By this I mean if I use a 1.5 or 2lt starter do I use less water when first mixing up the other ingredients?
Yes, use less water. Your yeast starter should be counted as part of the total volume.

Also if I use dry yeast should I always re-hydrate it first? I have never done this and my brews have never really show much activity through the airlock but the hydrometer shows fermentation in the normal timeframe e.g. 5 - 7days.
My opinion is no, do not rehydrate your dry yeast.

In brief, I think more can go wrong with rehydration than is gained by doing the hydration thing.

My personal experience is that quality dried yeasts (e.g.; Saf yeasts) work consistently well without rehydration.

Cheers,

Keith
 
I had a similar problem with no airlock activity - most probably was the poorly sealed lid! Worth checking perhaps?
 
When using a yeast starter do you need to reduce the wort volume by the starter volume so as to end up at 23lts or 25lt. By this I mean if I use a 1.5 or 2lt starter do I use less water when first mixing up the other ingredients?

Also if I use dry yeast should I always re-hydrate it first? I have never done this and my brews have never really show much activity through the airlock but the hydrometer shows fermentation in the normal timeframe e.g. 5 - 7days.

Hi Matt,

I have a different opinion to Kieth. Neither of us are right or wrong.

I dilute a concentrated wort (from the no chill method) with water to get my desired volume. This is the same as whether I'm going to pitch rehydrated dried yeast or a 2L starter.

My starter OG is about 1.030 - 1.040 depending on how much boil-off I had when making it. By the time I pitch it has fermented out and will be 4-5% ABV. If I factored this into my overall volume I'd end up with a slightly higher OG and a slightly higher final alcohol content.

I always rehydrate dried yeast. Mainly because what Palmer has written here seems to make sense. I think most people don't bother doing it however.

regards
Scott
 
I'd side with Palmer, I like to think of sprinkling a sachet onto fresh wort as a metaphorical punch on the face of all the yeast cells. They'll see stars (complex sugars) for a while, and though most of them might eventually start seeing straight again, the lag time isn't ideal. imho.
 
And on the airlock activity, i'd suggest your lid's not screwed on tight enough, or it's time for a fresh o-ring.
 
Matt,

First off welcome to the forum.

Yes consider your stater into your total volume.

I ALWAYS rehydrate my dry yeast and I doubt you will having trouble finding supporting articles for doing this. If you have good sanitation which every brewer should then rehydrating should not be a problem. All reputable yeast companies will have a manual if you will on each of their yeast strains. These manuals will list the process for rehydrading their yeast. The temperature can change depending on the yeast and I always check what they suggest. SafAle US-56 for example sudgests using 10X the volume of yeast in pre boiled 27C water.

You can proof the yeast by adding some sugar or dry male extract AFTER the yeast has been rehydrated in water from 30min. This will indicate if they yeast are alive or not. While a good practice I tend not to do this for reputable brands and especially considering I buy the yeast fresh with my ingredients but proofing your yeast is wise for kit yeasts which have been sitting under the lid of the cans in the supermarket for god knows how long or for old yeast you have had stored for some time.

The argument about adding some sugars to your rehydration water is an interesting one. I haven’t noticed allot of difference either way though my fermentations do start a little faster when I rehydrate which is always a good thing as it goes toward the yeast winning the bacteria battle. The majority of the literature (including the yeast companies) I have read sudgests using straight water when rehydrating. When dry the yeast’s cell membrane is highly permeable and cannot regulate what enters the cell or not which means sugars in high levels along with various other things can enter and do damage. The first few seconds of rehydration are the most important and following the guidelines from the manufacturer will assist in having close to 100% of your viable yeast ready for fermentation. An average packet of dry yeast may have around 20 billion yeast cells per gram. By rehydrating at the wrong temperature or pitching into the sweet wort you can loose up to 60% which means you still have 8 billion per gram left to do the job and they will multiply but this will slow your fermentation.

Basically either method can kill yeast cells but rehydrating properly as by the manufacturers suggestions will avoid killing most of the yeast and go a long way to assisting you have a strong number of active and ready to go yeast cells.

Of course better than all this is to make a starter and scale up over a few days.

On the airlock activity, check the lid is on and the air lock is tight around the rubber grommet. If it is a two or three piece airlock ensure its together properly and your sanitised or boiled water is filled up inside properly. Check the airlock is clean and has no clogs. Make sure their are no cracks in the Fermenter especially if its an old plastic one as they can get pretty brittle, particularly around and inside the handles so look there. Also make sure the black rubber ring seal is in the lid and in properly. Other than that if your beer isn’t getting infected and your airlock isnt bubbling I would guess you have a leak somewhere so just go from the hydrometer or buy a new Fermenter. Maybe try a new or different airlock first. I use the 25L Open Head Camper Drums from bunnings for fermenters that go for $15. They have a red lid and come with a threaded hole at the bottom for a tap. Both tap and drum are made by BMW plastics. As well as a rubber seal for the lid which is removable. I just drill a hole in the lid to fit the rubber grommet and airlock.

Brew On,

Blake
 
You can proof the yeast by adding some sugar or dry male extract AFTER the yeast has been rehydrated in water from 30min.

Where do you get this extract Finite? Asian grocery store or do you make your own?

Sorry, I couldn't help myself... :p

Great post by the way, spot on as far as my knowledge is concerned.
 
HAHA lol too funy. Yeah matt dont use that to proof your yeast it will make your yeast lazy. They wont ferment your beer instead they will just watch the cricket and drink your beer.
 
Matt,

I guess one piece of advice I'll offer for free, for whatever it's worth, is to try stuff yourself: there ain't no better way to learn stuff.

Scott (and others advice) of preparing a starter is good karma. Starters are good.

To cast aside my former attempt at brevity.

Rehydrating your yeast can be beneficial if done properly. My experience is that many more people actually screw up the process than do it properly.

The two main things that people do wrong are toss the yeast into water which is too hot and leave the yeast in the water for too long.

Many packet instructions say add the water to warm water. What the hell is warm water? 25 C, 35 C, 45 C. For my money the temperatures quoted by Palmer are too high <SHOCK :eek: HORROR> My understanding is that 40 C can kill yeast. At any rate, a temperature much closer to fermentation temp seems much more sensible to me. It may be that the yeast is better able to rehydrate at a slightly higher temperature, but I say what the hell, the lazy yeast would work if I pitched them at fermentation temperature and I rate any advantage as comparatively small.

If you leave the yeast in your water for too long, how long is too long, the answer is I dont know, but I do know that after rehydration occurs (I think Finite mentioned the small space of time) the yeast does some other stuff - it checks out the environment, can I cope with this pH, what food is around, what enzymes do I have to make - this and other stuff starts happening pretty much straight away. The yeast is gearing itself up for a life in a the cup of water and thats not a life you want to impose on your yeast, you want your yeast to prepare to ferment your wort and make your beer, not mooch around wondering what the hell has changed yet again and deciding if it can cope with the change when you get around to pitching it in your wort.

Now, there are exceptions to this. If you are using Nottingham dried yeast I am given to understand that it very important to rehydrate the yeast. It is the only exception I know of. Certainly Saf and Munton yeasts work well without rehydration.

I'm not a fan of the proofing thing. Proofing was a necessity in the past when the quality and reliability of dried yeasts was in question. Checking that your yeast, whose viability might have been crap to start with, was in a fit shape to ferment your beer after sitting in a supermarket warehouse over a 40 C summer was just commonsense. Nowadays the viability of dried yeasts is much greater (as is their purity btw) and any reputable supplier will have stored them much better than THE OLD DAYS. I think that my contention that proofing is a hangover from the past is also born out by the advice, oft given, of using sugar to perform the proofing. For the reasons given above, firing up the yeast with a balanced profile of sugars (maltose, trimaltose, blah, blah, blah) makes much more sense than the nutrient poor household white.

Proofing seems to me to be unnecessary step, that if you were prepared to do, would be much better replaced by making a bona fide starter.

Quality dried yeasts will work consistently well WITHOUT rehydration.

Happy Brewing,

Keith
ps In the interests of full disclosure, please be aware that I work on a part-time basis at my local home brew store, and that I have, from time to time, sold quality dried yeast.
 
In my last brew, I re-hydrated the yeast and the ferment got off to a great start. I will do it again in the future.

at the end of the day, give it a go, the beer is generally still drinkable, and in most cases better than commercial beer, whatever you do.
 
Gents,

Thanks for all of your info and the time spent to provide it.

I have participated on several forums in the past (4WD, Fishing etc) but I have never had the feedback or encountered the level of detailed knowledge that is apparent on the site. It is obvious that Home Brewing is not a slap it in and hope for the best exercise however a detailed process requiring much thought and preperation to ensure a good result.

Thanks again,

Matt
 
When i'm using yeast starters over 500mL, i wait for the starter to complete (krausen falls back in), keep it in the fridge for a day, then decant off the beer on top of the yeast in the starter leaving a little bit, mix up the yeast with the final bit of beer, and then pour that in. Then you don't have to adjust volumes or anything. But just make sure you take your OG reading after adding the starter...
 
Last night i helped my younger brother make his first home brew, I rehydrated his yeast for him while he was mixing in the ingredients. Pitched the yeast at about 1200am, 8am this morning it was bubling away magnificently.

I'll do it for all my brews from now on as a few of my dry yeast's have taken quiet a while to start working.
 
Tonight I'm going to try to propogate some yeast from a scottish ale (WY 1728?). There's soooo much info available, it's hard to know what's right. I've got a bunch of crap printed out, and am ready to go, so wish me luck.
If no luck, there's always the dry yeast packs to fall back on.
 
Tonight I'm going to try to propogate some yeast from a scottish ale (WY 1728?). There's soooo much info available, it's hard to know what's right. I've got a bunch of crap printed out, and am ready to go, so wish me luck.
If no luck, there's always the dry yeast packs to fall back on.

Petesbrew,

There is so much information because there is more than one way to do it. I think the important thing is to not stress the yeast. Learn what they like and don't like. Don't make 'em too warm. Don't leave 'em without food. Don't leave 'em without O2 at this important growth stage. Err on the side of caution. Give 'em some nutrients (available at any home brew shop).

All the best.

Scott
 
Petesbrew,

There is so much information because there is more than one way to do it. I think the important thing is to not stress the yeast. Learn what they like and don't like. Don't make 'em too warm. Don't leave 'em without food. Don't leave 'em without O2 at this important growth stage. Err on the side of caution. Give 'em some nutrients (available at any home brew shop).

All the best.

Scott
Hi guys,
Mixed it up the other night. 100g liquid malt, dissolved in boiling water, filled with cold water and the yeast sediment (filled to the top of the coke label). Day 2 now, and it's sitting in a 2l coke bottle in the garage with bugger all activity. Is this right? :unsure:
I may have done something, or everything wrong. (yet again, there's always the supplied yeast to fall back on!)
 
Hi guys,
Mixed it up the other night. 100g liquid malt, dissolved in boiling water, filled with cold water and the yeast sediment (filled to the top of the coke label). Day 2 now, and it's sitting in a 2l coke bottle in the garage with bugger all activity. Is this right? :unsure:
I may have done something, or everything wrong. (yet again, there's always the supplied yeast to fall back on!)

Give it a while. You've probably put too much liquid in there. When you are starting up yeast from a bottle the most you should use is 500mL. 250mL or less is ideal, then you can step it up by adding more wort as it grows to the high krausen stage.
 
Tonight I'm going to try to propogate some yeast from a scottish ale (WY 1728?). There's soooo much info available, it's hard to know what's right. I've got a bunch of crap printed out, and am ready to go, so wish me luck.
If no luck, there's always the dry yeast packs to fall back on.


Thats one of the easiest Yeasts I've ever propagated Petesbrew. Goes like a train and builds quickly. On the stir plate it went so fast that each step took only 12 hrs. It tried to get out of the top of the 1L erlenmyer flask with only 500ml of starter.
 
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