Wort Return

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Check the video out at the bottom this page

Cheers

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day...-by-step?page=6

I have seen this a few times , the guy has way to much money. He has spent big bucks on some stuff and totally ignored some other parts of the brewery.
Like its looks blingy but its no easier or better than the average home brewers setup.
Nev

 

[cdbrown]

I have a dial gauge on the tun measuring the grain bed and a probe for the PID at the HERMS outlet. If I just do a single temp - over the mash even though the temp of the herms is constant, the grain bed will slowly drop a degree or two. When ramping - I have the controller set to 1c a min rise, but the grain bed lags behind quite a bit such that at the end of the 10min ramp from 54 to 64, the herms says 64 but the bed would only be about 58 and will take a considerable amount of time to catch up. Also the grain bed will never actually reach the target temp due to heat losses in the system. I always try to open the valve fully during temp ramps and give the grain bed a stir every so often to remove any channeling and this does help with slightly increasing the grain bed ramp temp.

It's always confused me as to what the right measurement is - is it the small amount of liquid going through the herms warming up as it goes through the coil only to then cool again as it mixes with the grain bed.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

I have a dial gauge on the tun measuring the grain bed and a probe for the PID at the HERMS outlet. If I just do a single temp - over the mash even though the temp of the herms is constant, the grain bed will slowly drop a degree or two. When ramping - I have the controller set to 1c a min rise, but the grain bed lags behind quite a bit such that at the end of the 10min ramp from 54 to 64, the herms says 64 but the bed would only be about 58 and will take a considerable amount of time to catch up. Also the grain bed will never actually reach the target temp due to heat losses in the system. I always try to open the valve fully during temp ramps and give the grain bed a stir every so often to remove any channeling and this does help with slightly increasing the grain bed ramp temp.

It's always confused me as to what the right measurement is - is it the small amount of liquid going through the herms warming up as it goes through the coil only to then cool again as it mixes with the grain bed.

There are so many variables which change with each brew, bigger the grain bed slower the ramp and lower grain bed temps.
Like you say, what is the right temp. I guess keep good records and see how your beer turns out compared to mash set temps and go for there.
Nev

 

[Wolfy]

While there is some useful information in this thread, what is the conclusion about the 'best' wort return system?
Silicon hose
Sparge/spray arm
Cup-type wort return 'system'
... other?

Or do they essentially perform the same?

 

[hsb]

It's always confused me as to what the right measurement is - is it the small amount of liquid going through the herms warming up as it goes through the coil only to then cool again as it mixes with the grain bed.

The HERMS output is measurable, controllable and repeatable. That seems like the important aspect of HERMS, repeatability.

I don't stir my grain bed, it's the liquid washing through it that's important, not the grain itself.

I don't know what the flow rate of my pump is but I'd guess there are a few litres of liquid moving through the HERMS every minute, in a small closed system doing single batches, that means the liquid is at perfect temp regularly.

In conclusion, zzzz Stick with the single temp reading, see if it conforms with expectations in terms of the wort produced, it should do in my unqualified unexpert opinion.


re: Mash returns. There's some 'interesting' stuff from Palmer here on fluid mechanics.
http://www.howtobrew.com/appendices/appendixD-2.html

Palmer seems to suggest 2 drains from the base are the best way to minimise channelling but I've never seen a setup that actually did this. I suppose a manifold is the closest thing, distributing the drainage at the mash base.

I think so long as it isn't channelling, it doesn't matter too much. FWIW I found just lying a silcon tube on the grain bed did channel but that's just my experience, others seem to go OK. I use a Beerbelly return dish now, but anything to distribute the returning wort could be OK, thought about a copper showerhead previously.

 

[Adam Howard]

I have seen this a few times , the guy has way to much money. He has spent big bucks on some stuff and totally ignored some other parts of the brewery.
Like its looks blingy but its no easier or better than the average home brewers setup.
Nev

I agree. It's hilarious seeing them make these 5 gallon batches of Mild in 70L Blichmann pots. Must be like a 3 inch mash bed! The cost in their control panel alone is hideous. They'd be making no better beer than some bloke who knows the ins and outs of his gravity fed rig with a cooler mashtun.

 

[QldKev]

The HERMS output is measurable, controllable and repeatable. That seems like the important aspect of HERMS, repeatability.

I don't stir my grain bed, it's the liquid washing through it that's important, not the grain itself.

I don't know what the flow rate of my pump is but I'd guess there are a few litres of liquid moving through the HERMS every minute, in a small closed system doing single batches, that means the liquid is at perfect temp regularly.

In conclusion, zzzz Stick with the single temp reading, see if it conforms with expectations in terms of the wort produced, it should do in my unqualified unexpert opinion.


re: Mash returns. There's some 'interesting' stuff from Palmer here on fluid mechanics.
http://www.howtobrew.com/appendices/appendixD-2.html

Palmer seems to suggest 2 drains from the base are the best way to minimise channelling but I've never seen a setup that actually did this. I suppose a manifold is the closest thing, distributing the drainage at the mash base.

I think so long as it isn't channelling, it doesn't matter too much. FWIW I found just lying a silcon tube on the grain bed did channel but that's just my experience, others seem to go OK. I use a Beerbelly return dish now, but anything to distribute the returning wort could be OK, thought about a copper showerhead previously.

I agree 100% with this point. I brewed BIAB and was happy with it, if is a great way to make good beer. The only reason I moved to 3V was to be able to use a heat exchanger for that exact reason "measurable, controllable and repeatable". If your running a decent pump you should be turning over the entire volume of you wort in a few minutes.

QldKev

 

[hsb]

Same here QK, though I seem to have spent every waking moment since pissing around with my setup and changing it so much nothing has been repeated! Stop it!

But I think this

turning over the entire volume of you wort in a few minutes.

means that so long as your Mash return distributes the returning wort in such a way that the whole bed is getting rinsed, it can be anything (sanitary) at all.

If you're using silicon tubing, then the wort aerator seems like a simple cheap idea, or putting a stopper on the end and cut holes in the tubing to spray the wort out. Someone else here runs it into a metal camping cup I seem to recall, a 'ghetto' Beerbelly style return.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Same here QK, though I seem to have spent every waking moment since pissing around with my setup and changing it so much nothing has been repeated! Stop it!

But I think this means that so long as your Mash return distributes the returning wort in such a way that the whole bed is getting rinsed, it can be anything (sanitary) at all.

If you're using silicon tubing, then the wort aerator seems like a simple cheap idea, or putting a stopper on the end and cut holes in the tubing to spray the wort out. Someone else here runs it into a metal camping cup I seem to recall, a 'ghetto' Beerbelly style return.

Ok so here we go , believe in HSA or not, I like to have my returning wort sub surface so it has very little chance of HSA. Spaying or slashing is right out in my books.
Nev

 

[cdbrown]

If your running a decent pump you should be turning over the entire volume of you wort in a few minutes.

QldKev

I find that full throttle on the tun outlet valve causes a compact grain bed and channeling on my system (and reduced efficiency). Rice hulls and a thinner grist (3L/kg) have helped to reduce this problem. Maybe I need to increase the gap on the mill a notch but the march pump really does suck the grain down onto the false bottom.

 

[hsb]

Ok so here we go , believe in HSA or not, I like to have my returning wort sub surface so it has very little chance of HSA. Spaying or slashing is right out in my books.
Nev

Ha! HSA! :lol:
Ideally better not to splash you're right, so as not to invoke HSA discussion.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Ha! HSA! :lol:
Ideally better not to splash you're right, so as not to invoke HSA discussion.

I mentioned it but I think I got away with it. h34r:
Nev

 

[QldKev]

Ha! HSA! :lol:
Ideally better not to splash you're right, so as not to invoke HSA discussion.

lol, what's the successor of HSA, it's HSB

sorry, it was funny in my mind at the time

 

[argon]

That'd be Hot Side Botulism, kev

 

[QldKev]

I should have mentioned that,

as long at it's not sucking down the mash and splashing on the return

 

[raven19]

While there is some useful information in this thread, what is the conclusion about the 'best' wort return system?
Silicon hose
Sparge/spray arm
Cup-type wort return 'system'
... other?

Or do they essentially perform the same?

Whatever works for you in your brewery imo!

I used to use a silicon hose drainin onto a foil tray with holes punched in it. Now I use a copper ring with a heap of holes drilled in it.

When my MT is chockers doing a barley wine, I just have the wort return draining direct onto the grain bed at a low flow rate...

As long as you are not disturbing your grain bed (negating the top inch which is neither here nor there) you will be fine.

 

[pk.sax]

Whatever works for you in your brewery imo!

I used to use a silicon hose drainin onto a foil tray with holes punched in it. Now I use a copper ring with a heap of holes drilled in it.

My imperfect mash tun manifold ring is now on this duty, the slots were slightly too wide so I got a fb and the ring will be a sparge/recirculating arm. Now if I can just sort out a new kettle!

 

[Wolfman]

I am really interested to see some pics of what people are using for the wort return. I am looking into Rims/Herms and need to gain a better idea of this. I have a Rubbermaid cooler that I use for my mash tun, but any pics at all will do.

 

[browndog]

Is it feasible to measure the temperature in the centre of the mash tun, and stop the pump recirculating when the desired temp is reached? If you have the water at near to boiling temps in the heat exchanger, then the ramp times should be pretty good and while there might be times where the liquid exiting the HX is higher than the set temp, this is only momentary until it mixes in with the cooler water in the mash tun.

The downside is that when the pump is turned off, the small volume of liquid within the coils heats up dramatically over sac temps, but as Nev points out, this isn't different to decocting. The benefit is that there's no overshooting/undershooting/lagging issues for the grain bed, which is where the majority of conversion is happening.

Is this feasible, or is there some reason why this isn't done?

That is essentially how my brewery works using a mash PID to switch on an pump and energise the HX PID and element. here

cheers

Browndog

 

[razz]

I am really interested to see some pics of what people are using for the wort return. I am looking into Rims/Herms and need to gain a better idea of this. I have a Rubbermaid cooler that I use for my mash tun, but any pics at all will do.

Her is a pic of mine Wolfman, I use a RIM system.