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Kingbrownbrewing

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Can I please get some ideas on wort return for my HERMS?

I currently just use a piece of silicone tubing that sits on top of the mash with a float, but I think I am getting too much channelling with this.

Any photos/ ideas would be greatly appreciated.
 

Howlingdog

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Can I please get some ideas on wort return for my HERMS?

I currently just use a piece of silicone tubing that sits on top of the mash with a float, but I think I am getting too much channelling with this.

Any photos/ ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Watch the you video on the Sabco Brew Magic, it will give you some ideas. starting at 8:33 mins into the video.


HD
 
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bradsbrew

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Goo d link there HD. Interesting on what he says about stirring.

Dan I have mine temporarily set up so the return valve is on the MLT lid and a short cooper pipe directs the flow to the edge and gives me the same effect as the sabco in Howards link.
I was'nt sure about return speed so have tried all different speed's. I found on my system doing a 60L batch that having the valve full open worked well for recirc and backed it down to 1/4 for transfer. Hit 87% eff yesterday.
I am only new to HERMS myself but learning heaps along the way. Been reading through the dedicated herms thread as well for ideas.

Cheers

OT- you going to PUBS tues?
 

NickB

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Forgot to say yesterday Dan, shouldn't' matter if you're getting channeling too much if you're batch sparging. Fly sparing is obviously different. If you're getting over 75% efficiency I wouldn't worry at all. I'm sure you'll also see your efficiency jump with the HERMS and a longer mash regime.

Cheers
 

Kingbrownbrewing

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Just mashed in and the HERMS is working a treat!!
Getting about 3 degrees per minute with the hermit build.
And yes brad I will be at pubs, I'm bringing the club keg this meeting, so I would probably get shot if I didn't show...
 

NickB

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Let us know how the efficiency ends up Dan!
 

A3k

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Forgot to say yesterday Dan, shouldn't' matter if you're getting channeling too much if you're batch sparging. Fly sparing is obviously different. If you're getting over 75% efficiency I wouldn't worry at all. I'm sure you'll also see your efficiency jump with the HERMS and a longer mash regime.

Cheers
Hi Nick,
If there's channelling whilst trying to use the HERMS to raise temp, then it won't be recirculating through the grain properly, and the temperature won't be uniform.
I don't have any recirculating temp control, so don't have any experience here, but i'd assume that removing the channelling would be a positive thing.


Just mashed in and the HERMS is working a treat!!
Getting about 3 degrees per minute with the hermit build.
What size batches are you doing, actually what size mashes are you doing? i'm looking at getting a RIMS or a HERMS, but have been leaning towards a RIMS as they have better response times, but i haven't heard anyone getting 3degrees per minute with either RIMS or HERSM. I may reconsider if the ramp times are comparible.

Cheers,
Alan
 

Kingbrownbrewing

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This batch is only single, using nevs hermit build except with a keg king element through the middle of the coil. Positive results so far...
 

brettprevans

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If u want to pay yge $ u can buy a beerbelly wort.relturn 'system'
 

Bada Bing Brewery

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KBB
Here is what I did with the HERMS return. I had about a foot and a half of s/s wire and shoved it up the silicone tube. Then I just sort of made a corkscrew so I can place it just on the surface and the returning wort whirlpools around the top with minimal channelling.
Cheers
BBB
Corkscrew_silicone.jpg
 

QldKev

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Hi Nick,
If there's channelling whilst trying to use the HERMS to raise temp, then it won't be recirculating through the grain properly, and the temperature won't be uniform.
I don't have any recirculating temp control, so don't have any experience here, but i'd assume that removing the channelling would be a positive thing.




What size batches are you doing, actually what size mashes are you doing? i'm looking at getting a RIMS or a HERMS, but have been leaning towards a RIMS as they have better response times, but i haven't heard anyone getting 3degrees per minute with either RIMS or HERSM. I may reconsider if the ramp times are comparible.

Cheers,
Alan
If you restrict the flow, the wort at the outlet of the heat exchanger will increase fast. BUT the grain bed and the wort in it will lag behind dramatically and you wont have uniform temperatures. To me, you want the fastest flow without sucking down your grain bed to get the most uniform temperatures resulting in the most repeatable brews.

I wasn't thinking of that when I asked GB about ramp rates here. He said he got 1c per minute using a 1800-2000W element in a 100L batch.
But for a 100L batch (as per linked thread) allowing 70L strike water and 15kg grain (light grain bill) with a 2400w element, mathematically using 100% cycle, I would only be able to achieve from 66 mash to 78 mash-out 30 minutes minimum, allowing zero losses. 12/30 = 0.4c minute. Try the numbers in any water heating calc (inc the one on my website).

If will apply the same rules to a single batch,
water at 20L in the mash and 5kg grain, so I use the water value 25
temp diff 12 (66 mash to 78 mash-out)
2400w element,
and using the same calcs we get 12degrees/9minutes, so 1.3c per minute possible at 100% cycle.

If you get faster ramp rates, then your mash is lagging behind. As a minimum I would calculate the heating potential of the element on your mash volume, and recirc for at least that amount of time, if not a bit longer.


QldKev


edit: Add pic of sparge arm

Normally this is run under the surface of the wort, this was just at the start of recirc'ing to have a look at it. I added more water after the pic was taken.

sparge_arm.jpg

QldKev
 

Online Brewing Supplies

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KBB
Here is what I did with the HERMS return. I had about a foot and a half of s/s wire and shoved it up the silicone tube. Then I just sort of made a corkscrew so I can place it just on the surface and the returning wort whirlpools around the top with minimal channelling.
Cheers
BBB
View attachment 53310
You can see in the pic that he has placed the probe right near the outlet of the hose. Right spot :super:
Nev
 

QldKev

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You can see in the pic that he has placed the probe right near the outlet of the hose. Right spot :super:
Nev

I was always told the hottest spot? So in the case of HERMS wouldn't this be just as it exits the HERMS coil? Otherwise wouldn't you potentially be heating the wort a bit hotter than needed denaturing the enzymes for the required temp range? Maybe there is not enough temp lost in the return line?

QldKev
 

Crusty

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I was always told the hottest spot? So in the case of HERMS wouldn't this be just as it exits the HERMS coil? Otherwise wouldn't you potentially be heating the wort a bit hotter than needed denaturing the enzymes for the required temp range? Maybe there is not enough temp lost in the return line?

QldKev
Kev's on the money.
Immediately after the wort exit for sure. There is definatly a temp difference from my Rims exit point to the return dish entry point in the mash tun. There is heat & friction loss through the hoses, how important that is, is debatable. The mash will lag behind, there is no compensation for that, it's the nature of the beast with recirculation. I am monitoring my wort return from the Rims exit point & have no idea what the actual grain bed temps is. I might measure it next time & see how far it lags behind the surface return temp.
I base my ramp on 1deg a minute & that's pretty spot on with a 2400watt element with my set up.
 

Online Brewing Supplies

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I was always told the hottest spot? So in the case of HERMS wouldn't this be just as it exits the HERMS coil? Otherwise wouldn't you potentially be heating the wort a bit hotter than needed denaturing the enzymes for the required temp range? Maybe there is not enough temp lost in the return line?

QldKev
I dont see there would be a great deal of temp difference in readings but I think there would be a slightly lower grain bed temp if read from the coil exit. Silicon tube doesn't suck much heat in the short run to the grain bed.
Denaturing is not going to happen unless you can get your readings up past sac temps. If you stop your recirc flow then denaturing can occur but only in the small volume in the HX, much like decoction mash where you pull off 1/3 and boil it, there is still 2/3 of wort full of enzymes.
Nev
 

benno1973

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Is it feasible to measure the temperature in the centre of the mash tun, and stop the pump recirculating when the desired temp is reached? If you have the water at near to boiling temps in the heat exchanger, then the ramp times should be pretty good and while there might be times where the liquid exiting the HX is higher than the set temp, this is only momentary until it mixes in with the cooler water in the mash tun.

The downside is that when the pump is turned off, the small volume of liquid within the coils heats up dramatically over sac temps, but as Nev points out, this isn't different to decocting. The benefit is that there's no overshooting/undershooting/lagging issues for the grain bed, which is where the majority of conversion is happening.

Is this feasible, or is there some reason why this isn't done?
 

Online Brewing Supplies

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Is it feasible to measure the temperature in the centre of the mash tun, and stop the pump recirculating when the desired temp is reached? If you have the water at near to boiling temps in the heat exchanger, then the ramp times should be pretty good and while there might be times where the liquid exiting the HX is higher than the set temp, this is only momentary until it mixes in with the cooler water in the mash tun.

The downside is that when the pump is turned off, the small volume of liquid within the coils heats up dramatically over sac temps, but as Nev points out, this isn't different to decocting. The benefit is that there's no overshooting/undershooting/lagging issues for the grain bed, which is where the majority of conversion is happening.

Is this feasible, or is there some reason why this isn't done?
In an ideal situation the PID side of your controller could have two PID sensors in one PID, one at the HX and another in your grain bed.
This type of system uses cascade loops, inner & outer loops to refine the set point.
Some interesting tech reading HERE
Bit of over kill in a HB situation IMHO but use full on a larger scale.
Nev
 

Batz

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Can I please get some ideas on wort return for my HERMS?

I currently just use a piece of silicone tubing that sits on top of the mash with a float, but I think I am getting too much channelling with this.

Any photos/ ideas would be greatly appreciated.

When I had my 3v system I used one of these, I drilled a hole up through the middle as well. I found it spread the wort over the entire grain bed.

http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=968
 

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