Wort Return For Effective Whirlpool

[shandy]

I've been using wort returning to the kettle for a while now to whirlpool and speed up the chilling and in vein to try and collect hot break in a lovely, easy to manage cone but I have yet to have much success with the latter part of that. When it comes time to chill, the immersion chiller goes in and the pump goes on to let everything sanitise then at flamout the water goes on. Takes the usual half hour to get it cooled down and when it's at the temp I want the chiller comes out and the recirculation continues for about 10-20 minutes before being left to settle.

I'm starting to believe that the whirpool isn't strong enough. Sure, looking at the kettle everything is going round and the break material visible on the surface of the liquid is all at the centre but once it stops everything beneath the surface appears to be spread out to the edges of the kettle (not what I'm after). Should I be seeing a thundering whirpool sucking everything into a vortex?

I have the standard march pump that I'm guessing most people have, this one sold at Grain and Grape http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/product_in...roducts_id=7430 so is there some tips anyone can offer that might be to do with wort return positioning, angle of return or anything like that? Currently the return is quite near the top of the liquid level though that can be easily changed with some copper bending. My intention is to start doing some tests with just water in the kettle but if I can get a head start it'll save me some trial and error.

I'd have some pictures of it in action but I'm normally too busying wondering why the whirpool isn't gathering all that trub to take any. Here's one of the kettle set up with the wort return going round the edge of the kettle.

 

[Sammus]

I read it once and I can't remember exactly, but I think for optimum whirlpool you want to your return to be pointing in at 30 to the edge of the vessel or thereabouts.

The March pump isn't a great whirlpooler, so don't hope for too much. You can agitate the wort with it, don't expect a nice cone of trub in the middle.

Oh, and to see the results of the whirpool, you have to get it in motion, then wait till it stops. Its the slowing down that draws everything into the centre.

 

[shandy]

I read it once and I can't remember exactly, but I think for optimum whirlpool you want to your return to be pointing in at 30 to the edge of the vessel or thereabouts.

The March pump isn't a great whirlpooler, so don't hope for too much. You can agitate the wort with it, don't expect a nice cone of trub in the middle.

Oh, and to see the results of the whirpool, you have to get it in motion, then wait till it stops. Its the slowing down that draws everything into the centre.

Yeah I figured the march wouldn't exactly cause maelstrom in the kettle but I had hoped it would be up to the job of centring the trub. I'll adjust the return so its forcing liquid back against the side of the kettle at an angle and see if that improves the whirlpool effect.

I suppose when the pump goes off that's going to slow things down and pull stuff in but I could also try slowing the pump gently too.

 

[Hutch]

Yeah I figured the march wouldn't exactly cause maelstrom in the kettle but I had hoped it would be up to the job of centring the trub. I'll adjust the return so its forcing liquid back against the side of the kettle at an angle and see if that improves the whirlpool effect.

I suppose when the pump goes off that's going to slow things down and pull stuff in but I could also try slowing the pump gently too.

I haven't tried using the March-pump to whirlpool, but have you tried whirlpooling the old-fashioned way (ie. with a sterilised long-handle spoon?)
I know it sounds like a bit of a backward step when you'd hoped the pump would acheive this for you, though it sounds like the pump just doesn't get it whirling vigourously enough. Even a decent stir for a few seconds is generally sufficient to get it to form a good cone, after giving it a good 5-10 minutes to settle-out and stop whirling.

Also, I notice your pickup tube (with the hop-screen on the end of it) is not exactly positioned close to the edge of your kettle, where you ideally want it to be to avoid picking up trub from the edge of the cone. An effective whirlpool generally produces a well-formed cone, but as you draw wort away, the cone begins to spread out as the liquid level reaches the top of the cone, and it eventually flattens out on the bottom of your kettle as you reach the last few Ltrs. Having the pickup as far from the centre as possible will minimise pickup as the cone spreads, and you can generally get the last few Ltrs out effectively by tilting the kettle as it empties.

Cheers,
Hutch.

 

[alowen474]

Make sure you allow for the coreolis effect and circulate it the right way.

 

[Hutch]

Make sure you allow for the coreolis effect and circulate it the right way.

:lol:

 

[samhighley]

I just got an email back from Jamil, and he says he is using this pump for his whirlpool chiller:

http://morebeer.com/view_product/17311//Ma...re_Brewing_Pump

Seems to be the identical March pump to what we get here.

Therefore I see no reason why locally available March pumps shouldn't be able to whirlpool.

 

[samhighley]

A little more information from Jamil:

It isn't going to be a violent whipping of the wort with a big dent in
the middle, if that is what people are thinking. All you need to do is
move the wort. Any spin, no matter how slow, works as a whirlpool. The
very physics of spinning liquid is what we're talking about. The
liquid on the outside of the circle (kettle wall) needs to move much
faster than the liquid right in the center if the liquid is rotating.
It is the fact that the center is moving slower than the outside that
allows the bits to migrate and fall to the bottom in the center of the
liquid. It works, without high velocity.

 

[chappo1970]

I reckon it has little to do with the pump and more the position of your pick up tube with the hop screen. It isn't placed close enough to the outer edge of your kettle IMHO therefore creating an eddy which picks up the break/trub and dispurses it all over the shop and prevents a good cone being formed. 2c FWIW

Cheers

Chappo

 

[Sammus]

Yeah I figured the march wouldn't exactly cause maelstrom in the kettle but I had hoped it would be up to the job of centring the trub. I'll adjust the return so its forcing liquid back against the side of the kettle at an angle and see if that improves the whirlpool effect.

I suppose when the pump goes off that's going to slow things down and pull stuff in but I could also try slowing the pump gently too.

noo you want it to be pointing away from the side of the kettle - in the direction of the red arrow



and yeah what i meant by the slowing thing is dont expect to see a cone of trub there while the whirlpool is running, switch the pump off at wait 5-10min.

 

[KillerRx4]

It might be worth noting the US 110v pumps have a slightlyt higher flowrate than our 220v pumps. Something to do with 50hz vs 60hz.

http://www.marchpump.com/documents/809-HS....0/60Hz%20Models

Also After looking looking up specs it appears a centre feed head has a high flowrate too.

 

[Jye]

My experience is that the whirlpool is purely there to agitate the wort around the IM chiller so that it chills more efficiently. But if your pump is fast enough you might be able to get a trub pile, just remember that the pile will not form while the wort is still rotating. You will have to wait 10-15 min after turning the pump off for the trub to settle out.

Or just get a FB for the kettle, they are awesome!

 

[br33zy]

We've been whirlpooling by hand with good results for the past few hoppy brews.

The above notes about whirlpool strength are spot on - we just use a standard coppers brew spoon (one day Benny will buy a paddle...) and stir the hot wort gently but deeply enough to get it all moving. Pop the lid on and let it settle while we faff about getting the plate chiller set up and the receiving fermenter ready.

When the kettle has drained; there is not so much a pile of hop matter in the centre of the kettle as an even distribution which is just far enough away from the pickup (and hopscreen) to cause any trouble.

The only differences I can see are (if I'm looking at your picture correctly) you are using a keggle with a convex base - I'd think the convex base would largely counteract the whirlpool's effect on any solid matter; and your pickup is not that close to the outside of the kettle, so any pile would have to be quite pronounced to stay out of its way.

Cheers

Breezy

 

[3G]

I whirlpool with my march pump, i also give it a good stir foe a few secs to get it started. Works for a 40 litre batch ok with an 809.

 

[shandy]

Thanks all.

The hop screen shall be moved nearer the edge of the kettle. The wort re-entry path will be modified and a helping stir courtesy of the big brewing spoon will be added next time.

I WILL get my cone. :lol: