Worst Animal Cruelty
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Lecterfan
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Once/if the ability to "suffer pain" credo has been adopted it certainly makes it very difficult to accept the practices against animals globally for sure...
Not affiliated with one view or the other, just saying that if X +Y then the = Z bit is hard to swallow when considered based on the "ability to suffer" premise...
Don't want to start the/a debate - I know oils ain't oils, but skinned alive is rough in anyone's book (if you accept the animal is in a position to feel pain in the first place - so doesn't apply if they don't).
Another interesting post -love it... stay separated from the issue and discuss the mechanics of it, fascinating...
Not affiliated with one view or the other, just saying that if X +Y then the = Z bit is hard to swallow when considered based on the "ability to suffer" premise...
Don't want to start the/a debate - I know oils ain't oils, but skinned alive is rough in anyone's book (if you accept the animal is in a position to feel pain in the first place - so doesn't apply if they don't).
Another interesting post -love it... stay separated from the issue and discuss the mechanics of it, fascinating...
Brewing_Brad
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Not just the Chinese. Halal and Kosher practices are pretty damn barbaric as well. Regardless of if the animal is sentient or not, feels pain or not, on the off chance that it is/does, at least give it a quick and hopefully painless death before you start cutting into it or tearing bits off it! That's just common courtesy!
At least, that's my 2c.
super_simian
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Yeah, it's unfortunately often misconstrued as racism to say so, but some cultures' animal slaughter practices are downright barbaric... Kosher and Halal being prime examples - I live in a culturally diverse area and 99% of the time that's no issue, but I won't go to a butcher or food supplier billed as Halal or Kosher...which narrows my choices a lot!
thelastspud
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I thought in halal and kosher they killed animals with one swipe across the neck with a sharp knife and the beast couldn't see the knife coming.
that doesn't sound to bad to me.
back on topic ever seen a bullfight? that's some real cruelty just for fun.
that doesn't sound to bad to me.
back on topic ever seen a bullfight? that's some real cruelty just for fun.
Silo Ted
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I assume that people posting with this Today Tonight-esque moral outrage are all vegetarians ? Must be, otherwise you would be feeling guilty as hell about the absolute inhumane conditions your dinner was kept under during the animal's LIFE, arguablt a far more concerning factor than the inevitable few moment approaching DEATH.
What's for breakfast ? Eggs that come from a battery hen that lives in torture-chamber conditions not big enough to spread her wings ? Australia has one of the worst codes of conduct regarding the practice amongst first world nations.
How about her friend the broiler chicken, intended to be a Sunday Roast at mum's place ? Raised in a factory farm, otherwise known as a big indoor warehouse, never sees sunlight, amongst disease-ridden conditions, pumped up with unnaturally nutritious feed so the poor things grow so damn fast that many cannot develop their legs fast enough to hold their own bloated body weight under their young chicken legs. Chronic pain throughout their LIFE for the sole purpose of being a tasty treat in your KFC Zinger burger.
Or that sensuously fatty rasher of bacon which came from our friend Porky, who lives in a cramped, overcrowded pen, occsionally taken out to enjoy a SMALLER pen during farrowing/nursing piglets, too small to swing a cat. let alone have mother of Babes do a 360 turn. Let's not forget that breeders are used like productive fat whores, and forced to spend most of her life constantly breeding or nursing, before going to the great pig-gig in the sky (actually to your plate). Resisting the slaughterhouse truck, my darlings ? That's OK, we'll prod you with electric shockers to help you change your mind.
Or our friend the beef beast, dear sweet steaky cow. Whose only intention of existing is not for a joyful lazy life to rear her young, graze with friends in the field and die a natural death, but to eat amongst other inmates, be coralled from field to field, frightened constantly by dogs & land cruisers into conformity.
Let's make something clear. I am NOT vegetarian, so I don't really care much about that described above if you were to put a bacon & egg two beef patty burger before me. What does make me sick is the shock-horror-OMG presentation of developing country barbarism, or in other words thinly veiled racist agendas undertaken by the media (who do this constantly, and at every opportunity).
Animals being skinned alive ? Goddamn it that's awful, do you think the same of yourselves or your mates when you go fishing, catch a big fat bream and chuck it in bucket of 30 water to die a cruel death ? Speaking of aquatic food, how about the taste of a lovely fresh crab that's been killed by immersion in boiling water ? Yum Yum Yum ! Not a fisherman, but love your seafood ? The best, freshest fish at the markets is always the ones that are still flapping around on ice, under lights and behind glass. You know its going to be tasty because its still moving when you take it nack to your car wrapped in paper and stuffed into a plastic bag.
Halal, hey ? If anyone would bother to look into it properly, you would find that is superior treatment of an animal over its life & death cycle from birth to plate. Generally being performed in less industrialised countries, the animals are often kept in much better conditions than in the 'west'. as mentioned by Bradley, a quick slash to the throat is all it takes, along with some prayers (or whatever). IN fact, as developing nations become more industrialised, there is much discussion amongst Islamic scholars whether the global, multinational future of production can even maintain a proper halal concept in a food factory setting, and their take is that the future of food will inevitably me more cruelty laden, just as those infidels in the USA, Australia, etc have been doing for years.
Effectively, thios mainstream media bullshit about the alleged inhumanity of 'other countries' is no different than the propaganda machine over at PETA. You want to be a conciences world citizen, then be a vegetarian. Otherwise, please show some independant persective before believeing everything you see on TV and read in the shitty daily newspaper. We can make our own choices on how to interperet things, but that comes from self-education beyond the idiot box or the internet.
Thats all from me, its 7:30, the HLT is heating up and Im going to cook up some snags for breakfast.
What's for breakfast ? Eggs that come from a battery hen that lives in torture-chamber conditions not big enough to spread her wings ? Australia has one of the worst codes of conduct regarding the practice amongst first world nations.
How about her friend the broiler chicken, intended to be a Sunday Roast at mum's place ? Raised in a factory farm, otherwise known as a big indoor warehouse, never sees sunlight, amongst disease-ridden conditions, pumped up with unnaturally nutritious feed so the poor things grow so damn fast that many cannot develop their legs fast enough to hold their own bloated body weight under their young chicken legs. Chronic pain throughout their LIFE for the sole purpose of being a tasty treat in your KFC Zinger burger.
Or that sensuously fatty rasher of bacon which came from our friend Porky, who lives in a cramped, overcrowded pen, occsionally taken out to enjoy a SMALLER pen during farrowing/nursing piglets, too small to swing a cat. let alone have mother of Babes do a 360 turn. Let's not forget that breeders are used like productive fat whores, and forced to spend most of her life constantly breeding or nursing, before going to the great pig-gig in the sky (actually to your plate). Resisting the slaughterhouse truck, my darlings ? That's OK, we'll prod you with electric shockers to help you change your mind.
Or our friend the beef beast, dear sweet steaky cow. Whose only intention of existing is not for a joyful lazy life to rear her young, graze with friends in the field and die a natural death, but to eat amongst other inmates, be coralled from field to field, frightened constantly by dogs & land cruisers into conformity.
Let's make something clear. I am NOT vegetarian, so I don't really care much about that described above if you were to put a bacon & egg two beef patty burger before me. What does make me sick is the shock-horror-OMG presentation of developing country barbarism, or in other words thinly veiled racist agendas undertaken by the media (who do this constantly, and at every opportunity).
Animals being skinned alive ? Goddamn it that's awful, do you think the same of yourselves or your mates when you go fishing, catch a big fat bream and chuck it in bucket of 30 water to die a cruel death ? Speaking of aquatic food, how about the taste of a lovely fresh crab that's been killed by immersion in boiling water ? Yum Yum Yum ! Not a fisherman, but love your seafood ? The best, freshest fish at the markets is always the ones that are still flapping around on ice, under lights and behind glass. You know its going to be tasty because its still moving when you take it nack to your car wrapped in paper and stuffed into a plastic bag.
Halal, hey ? If anyone would bother to look into it properly, you would find that is superior treatment of an animal over its life & death cycle from birth to plate. Generally being performed in less industrialised countries, the animals are often kept in much better conditions than in the 'west'. as mentioned by Bradley, a quick slash to the throat is all it takes, along with some prayers (or whatever). IN fact, as developing nations become more industrialised, there is much discussion amongst Islamic scholars whether the global, multinational future of production can even maintain a proper halal concept in a food factory setting, and their take is that the future of food will inevitably me more cruelty laden, just as those infidels in the USA, Australia, etc have been doing for years.
Effectively, thios mainstream media bullshit about the alleged inhumanity of 'other countries' is no different than the propaganda machine over at PETA. You want to be a conciences world citizen, then be a vegetarian. Otherwise, please show some independant persective before believeing everything you see on TV and read in the shitty daily newspaper. We can make our own choices on how to interperet things, but that comes from self-education beyond the idiot box or the internet.
Thats all from me, its 7:30, the HLT is heating up and Im going to cook up some snags for breakfast.
not going to type as much as silo ted but...
I have 4 chickens that are well looked after and I can promise that the eggs produced are a lot better than anything you buy. Even if you do leave them to sit in the fridge for weeks they will still taste much better than anything freshly bought.
I think a happy chicken lays a happy egg.
We should treat everything as kindly as we can, regardless of if it is an animal or not, anything else is wasteful and disrespectful. </rant>
I have 4 chickens that are well looked after and I can promise that the eggs produced are a lot better than anything you buy. Even if you do leave them to sit in the fridge for weeks they will still taste much better than anything freshly bought.
I think a happy chicken lays a happy egg.
We should treat everything as kindly as we can, regardless of if it is an animal or not, anything else is wasteful and disrespectful. </rant>
pk.sax
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Silo.. I'd have said TLDR.
But damn.. I read it all. Hypocrisy certainly is deplorable. But I ask you to consider this:
Mankind is a barbaric race at the basic, ancient level. As our life spans have improved and the stores of knowledge have increased, we are able to create far in excess of the physical capacity of any other living thing on earth to resist us. Man controls the fate of every other living thing on the earth at this point in time. In other words, we are a feral infestation upon this planet, supplanting and replacing indigenous fauna and destroying the living world bit by bit. Our power is immense. The only thing that manages to bring us down from time to time is the giant living planet we live on, it breathes, gushes volcanoes, has fissures from the movement of its skin/crust. Its the only thing we aren't totally powerful against. That and our dependance on the living natural world we are supplanting at breakneck pace.
Now, considering all that, You might be tempted to say, mankind as a whole is equivalent to 'mythical gods', capable of reshaping and changing things.
What, may I ask, considering this, keeps us from acting out the barbarian in us. The common decencies, manners, distastes, being cultured etc... they are all a form of hypocrisy. We do, at all times betray our nature. Its this ability to control ourselves that makes us human. That IS our chance of surviving into the future.
If we did not have these controls over ourselves, we would wipe this earth out and go extinct ourselves once our 'prey', the resources of nature are lost.
Realising from time to time that we need to check our animal instincts is not a bad thing in my opinion. The vain argument of many about vegetarianism - 'go all the way or don't start', well, that definitely does not appeal to me as even close to sustainable.
Please excuse me if I have offended someone's animal instincts above.
But damn.. I read it all. Hypocrisy certainly is deplorable. But I ask you to consider this:
Mankind is a barbaric race at the basic, ancient level. As our life spans have improved and the stores of knowledge have increased, we are able to create far in excess of the physical capacity of any other living thing on earth to resist us. Man controls the fate of every other living thing on the earth at this point in time. In other words, we are a feral infestation upon this planet, supplanting and replacing indigenous fauna and destroying the living world bit by bit. Our power is immense. The only thing that manages to bring us down from time to time is the giant living planet we live on, it breathes, gushes volcanoes, has fissures from the movement of its skin/crust. Its the only thing we aren't totally powerful against. That and our dependance on the living natural world we are supplanting at breakneck pace.
Now, considering all that, You might be tempted to say, mankind as a whole is equivalent to 'mythical gods', capable of reshaping and changing things.
What, may I ask, considering this, keeps us from acting out the barbarian in us. The common decencies, manners, distastes, being cultured etc... they are all a form of hypocrisy. We do, at all times betray our nature. Its this ability to control ourselves that makes us human. That IS our chance of surviving into the future.
If we did not have these controls over ourselves, we would wipe this earth out and go extinct ourselves once our 'prey', the resources of nature are lost.
Realising from time to time that we need to check our animal instincts is not a bad thing in my opinion. The vain argument of many about vegetarianism - 'go all the way or don't start', well, that definitely does not appeal to me as even close to sustainable.
Please excuse me if I have offended someone's animal instincts above.
Silo Ted
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I don't write for the Twitter people, so I'm humbled that you kept reading. Forums may soon become the last bastion of moderate discussion.
An arguement for the justified exploitation of animals as a culinary commodity might be that our beastly herds are only & solely brought into life for the purpose of slaughter, and therefore it is man's invovement in cattle husbandry, and his role as God, that creates a living mammalian being. A life designed to flourish under specific conditions, with a particular planned outcome in mind. The focus is mostly on how wonderful the flesh will be when thrown on a hot griddle.
Do factory-farmed meat-bearing animals feel happy ? Probably not. Do meat eaters really care ? Probably not.
Is the arguement for 'inhumane preparation' in other cultures something that a meat eater can be upset about ? Absolutely, when the spin-doctoring of media wants to tell us all how barbaric those Chinese people are. Or those damn bloodthirsy Muslims...
Unless Browndog is a vegetarian, I can't see his OP being a worthy statement.
And practicalfool, I write this on the consideration that youre a vegetarian, yes ? Seem to recall a thread some time back about cooking !
In the end, you & me probably view the discussion in a similar way to most other respondants, despite polar opposite choices. Except that I'll be the one calling for another beef taco just before kitchen shuts for the night.
pk.sax
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Heh, I still wince a little everytime somebody describes an animal as food. Strangely, I'm not as phased by the killing of them per se, but the motive of killing does irk. It is like saying the animal is no good but to eat. I always grew up in the city but everytime I've got to be out there with animals I can see how much they are capable of reacting to care and affection. They definitely show feeling, loyalty, instincts. Can't see myself starting to eat them anytime.
browndog
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Your joking right? I've fished and hunted and have always despatched the animal quicky and as humanly as possible, as for chicken and eggs we have the choise of free range farms and if I discovered my butcher was selling meat from animals that were not slaughtered properly, then I'd find another butcher. If people want to farm dogs for their pelts, so be it, but I can't see any need for them to suffer for it. I find your statement offensive.
Silo Ted
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Fair enough. I find yours hypocritical and borne from a deep seated racism against other cultures.
Therefore, your comments are highly offensive to me.
Proper Halal killing is done swiftly and the animal must never see the knife coming. When I lived in Turkey I saw a Halal guy at work a couple of times (They sacrifice a goat and drag a blood trail around new civic buildings, in this case the new village post office) the goat never knew a thing. The cowboys at those Indo slaughterhouses aren't Halal.
There was a show on cable TV last year called "Kill it, cook it, eat it" where a theatre and restaurant were built onto a big window attached to a modern UK abbatoir so the audience could watch their dinner being despatched and prepared. Some (a minority) of the audience left in a hurry but it was a good and accurate depiction of modern UK abbatoir practice and was as swift and humane as it gets in the trade, and I guess Australia works to similar standards. I believe the USA is a bit more slapdash going on that "fast food" film I saw the other year.
I've struggled with all this myself and actually found it not too expensive to go:
Free range eggs. In todays dollars they are cheaper than cage eggs were 15 years ago before the modern obscene "egg wars" $4 for 700g is almost trivial, you pay more than that for apples at woolies half the time. Free range chooks are only a couple of dollars or more than the cage ones at Aldi. Free range I'm sure is more intensive than idyllic scenes of chooks pecking away in sylvan woodland paradise, but they are flock animals anyway.
Grass fed beef (Killarney QLD) - so they live in paddocks all their lives and not crowded in filthy feedlots.
Lamb
Free Range Pork from Northern NSW. I got some loin chops from the butcher at the James St markets - they were $16 a kilo which compares to woolies / aldi's $12 a kilo for poor sows kept upright all their lives in dark cages in stinking sheds. Shows you what a ripoff woolies is, and how they must be dudding their farmers. Again cost = trivial but hopefully I am picking up some karma points. I'm determined not to go back, and I no longer eat Maccas or supermarket bacon or meat etc.
Sure the animals end up at the abattoir but hopefully modern well inspected humane ones.
As for skinning animals alive, shows that China's "modern" facade is just that, a facade.
Edit: of course I realise that I'm in a favourable position as I don't have a crew of kids to feed and of course there are a lot of people worse off financially who have to just close their minds to farming practices and just buy what they can afford. However I'm not high income by any means, probably not even medium. :blink:
There was a show on cable TV last year called "Kill it, cook it, eat it" where a theatre and restaurant were built onto a big window attached to a modern UK abbatoir so the audience could watch their dinner being despatched and prepared. Some (a minority) of the audience left in a hurry but it was a good and accurate depiction of modern UK abbatoir practice and was as swift and humane as it gets in the trade, and I guess Australia works to similar standards. I believe the USA is a bit more slapdash going on that "fast food" film I saw the other year.
I've struggled with all this myself and actually found it not too expensive to go:
Free range eggs. In todays dollars they are cheaper than cage eggs were 15 years ago before the modern obscene "egg wars" $4 for 700g is almost trivial, you pay more than that for apples at woolies half the time. Free range chooks are only a couple of dollars or more than the cage ones at Aldi. Free range I'm sure is more intensive than idyllic scenes of chooks pecking away in sylvan woodland paradise, but they are flock animals anyway.
Grass fed beef (Killarney QLD) - so they live in paddocks all their lives and not crowded in filthy feedlots.
Lamb
Free Range Pork from Northern NSW. I got some loin chops from the butcher at the James St markets - they were $16 a kilo which compares to woolies / aldi's $12 a kilo for poor sows kept upright all their lives in dark cages in stinking sheds. Shows you what a ripoff woolies is, and how they must be dudding their farmers. Again cost = trivial but hopefully I am picking up some karma points. I'm determined not to go back, and I no longer eat Maccas or supermarket bacon or meat etc.
Sure the animals end up at the abattoir but hopefully modern well inspected humane ones.
As for skinning animals alive, shows that China's "modern" facade is just that, a facade.
Edit: of course I realise that I'm in a favourable position as I don't have a crew of kids to feed and of course there are a lot of people worse off financially who have to just close their minds to farming practices and just buy what they can afford. However I'm not high income by any means, probably not even medium. :blink:
yardy
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Sober up Ted.
B
bradsbrew
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Silo Nanna if you ever have the oppurtunity to meet Browndog and have a real life conversation with him you will realise that you are cockhead for making that statement.
kevo
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I can live with a certain amount of 'cruelty' in the provision of food. The animal needs to be killed somehow and this can be done in humane ways.
What Browndog is referring to is totally unneccessary cruelty - disgustingly so.
It could be done better, more 'humanely' - but it's cheaper and quicker not to.
It's nothing to do with racism or lack of acceptance of other cultures - it's just plain cruel.
Thanks BD for bringing this to people's attention - I've never pondered the origin of my uggies before. Will think before purchasing next time.
What Browndog is referring to is totally unneccessary cruelty - disgustingly so.
It could be done better, more 'humanely' - but it's cheaper and quicker not to.
It's nothing to do with racism or lack of acceptance of other cultures - it's just plain cruel.
Thanks BD for bringing this to people's attention - I've never pondered the origin of my uggies before. Will think before purchasing next time.
pk.sax
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That's the key point here, what is unnecessary to one might not be to another.
While Silo's heavy handed criticism is hard to digest, it does make one think and think a little deeper. Good on everyone for taking offense, at least we know you're capable of being affected.
PS: Bribie, you wouldn't say yours' is a meat heavy diet with not do you? I have a hunch that people used to eating meat day in and day out for repeat courses won't bother splashing on more 'humanely' raised/killed 'food'.
seemax
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The killing may be as humane as possible but let's not forget the events before that...
How would you react if parents with 15 children decided to brand a number on their foreheads simply because they kept forgetting their names?
Then ship them half way across the state, or worse the country (think live exports), in dirty hot conditions without food or water.
Does breeding them for food allow us to inflict pain and suffering without regard?
If you eat meat you have to be prepared to wear the fact that you have indirectly caused some level of suffering.
How would you react if parents with 15 children decided to brand a number on their foreheads simply because they kept forgetting their names?
Then ship them half way across the state, or worse the country (think live exports), in dirty hot conditions without food or water.
Does breeding them for food allow us to inflict pain and suffering without regard?
If you eat meat you have to be prepared to wear the fact that you have indirectly caused some level of suffering.
Dave70
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I am. And even if PETA's push to have fish re named 'sea kittens' ever comes to fruition, I guess I'll be ordering sea kitten and chips from the local greasy spoon joint, no problem.
I'm also comfortable wearing the clothing that was produced in some shithole sweatshop in Mumbai or Thailand because I know that if I boycott buying T shirts and thongs from that part of the planet, they'll shut down the factory and the woman who was supporting her family on the $1.60 AUD a day she earns will have to make other arrangements.
