Witbier Partial - Best Way To Add Orange & Coriander?

[Hoser]

Ok,
Having a go at a partial mash to make a Witbier:

Boil volume - 28L
Batch volume - 20L

Malt
Torrified Wheat 1kg
2 Row Pils Malt 300g
Dry Wheat Malt Extract 2kg

Hops
Perle 8.5%AA 7g - 60min
Hallertau 4.5%AA 7g - 60min
Hallertau 4.5%AA 7g - 45min
Hallertau 4.5AA 7g - 15min

Yeast
Wyeast Witbier 3944

Other
Orange zest 30g
Crushed coriander 40g

Est OG 1056
Est FG 1014
IBU 19.7

Method:
1. Stepped mash of torrified wheat and Pils malt 45 degrees 15min, 67 degrees 1 hour
2. 90 minute boil
3. Add orange zest and crush at flameout
4. No chill 2-3 days

So questions. What is your experience. Do you recommend any changes?

Also what is the best time and method to add orange and coriander? Is this added at flameout? At start of boil? In secondary?

And what is the best time orange and coriander to add? I'm thinking zest of fresh orange peel and crushed coriander seed?

Cheers!

 

[Malted]

And what is the best time orange and coriander to add? I'm thinking zest of fresh orange peel and crushed coriander seed?

I can't tell you what is best but I can say what I did and what I thought of it.

I had some corriander seeds (about 10g) that I dry roasted (in a frying pan with no oil, quite hot and keep them moving till browned as required) then crushed them. It seemed to give a nice hint to the brew. Apparently there are different types of corriander seed that have different flavours (round seed versus seed with pointed ends - later might be Indian?).

Quite often people use dried bitter orange peel (which I believe is from the Seville orange) but I did not get my A into gear to get some for my brew. I used just the skin part (not pith) of 1/2 a red grapefruit cut into strips about 2cm wide and some dried tangerine peel from an Asian grocer. The tangerine was possibly a bit too sweet.
I put both lots in at 5 mins with a few whole cloves. I tipped the lot into the ferementer peel and all.


Overall it did not have much citrus punch, it was perhaps too mild and muted. I have heard that some folks add a bit of Blue Curacao to the keg or batch priming vessel.

I mashed too low so it ended up too thin and was not nice for the style, watch your mash temp closely although you should be fine using 2kg of wheat extract. On a side note: apparently not all 'wheat extract' is 100% wheat.
Temperature during fermentation can affect the amount of clove and/or banana flavours from the yeast. Personaly I like the banana in a wheat beer so I drove it that way. I find you get banana flavour when drinking cold but the clove flavour does not come through until the beer warms in the glass (it rarely does that from my glasses!).

 

[Pennywise]

The few Wit's I've done I just added all the spices in the last few mins of the boil, and the zest I steep for about 15 mins then chuck the liquid in with the spices. One thing I'll recomend is not to use the ground corriander you get in those masterfood/whatever jars, go get the real stuff, crush it yourself.

 

[Hoser]

Cool thanks. So you think bitter orange peel zest works a bit better?

 

[Pennywise]

The only good results I had was when using the dried bitter peel from G&G

 

[Hoser]

Cool. Will try to pick some up this weekend.

 

[Pennywise]

Re-reading your recipe, I'm not sure 300g of Pils malt will be enough to help the wheat convert, or is that the intention?

 

[hazard]

Re-reading your recipe, I'm not sure 300g of Pils malt will be enough to help the wheat convert, or is that the intention?

There was another thread about how much base malt is needed to convert adjuncts lately, but let me share my experience....

In the old days when I used to do partials, I was limited to about 3kg of grain. I wanted to do a partial wit, and as true wit is supposed to made with raw wheat (torrified will do) I couldn't use a wheat extract - which is made from malted wheat. So my recipe was:

Partial mash:
0.5kg pils malt
2.25 kg torrified wheat
0.25kg rolled oats
extract:
1.5kg Light DME

Hops - Hallertau to 18IBU @60min

Plus coriander, orange peel.

Yeast - WY3944

I mashed in at 50 deg and left in the oven for a few hours (used a 19L stockpot which just fits in) at that temp. Then raised temp to 65 deg and left for another hour or 2. Then sparged, boiled, added hops, added extract, added orange peel and coriander, chilled, tipped into fermenter and topped up to 23L.

In the end - it all worked out perfectly. OG and FG hit the numbers predicted and the final product was a nice drop that was all drunk quickly. Not quite a Hooegarden but not bad.

The moral is: you CAN convert up to 80% adjunct if you take your time. I know there are "rules of thumb" that say (for example) that you shouldn't convert more than 50% adjunct (or even less), well sometimes you gotta try something new.

 

[Malted]

Cool thanks. So you think bitter orange peel zest works a bit better?

Yes that would be my suspicion.

 

[Pennywise]

There was another thread about how much base malt is needed to convert adjuncts lately, but let me share my experience....

In the old days when I used to do partials, I was limited to about 3kg of grain. I wanted to do a partial wit, and as true wit is supposed to made with raw wheat (torrified will do) I couldn't use a wheat extract - which is made from malted wheat. So my recipe was:

Partial mash:
0.5kg pils malt
2.25 kg torrified wheat
0.25kg rolled oats
extract:
1.5kg Light DME

Hops - Hallertau to 18IBU @60min

Plus coriander, orange peel.

Yeast - WY3944

I mashed in at 50 deg and left in the oven for a few hours (used a 19L stockpot which just fits in) at that temp. Then raised temp to 65 deg and left for another hour or 2. Then sparged, boiled, added hops, added extract, added orange peel and coriander, chilled, tipped into fermenter and topped up to 23L.

In the end - it all worked out perfectly. OG and FG hit the numbers predicted and the final product was a nice drop that was all drunk quickly. Not quite a Hooegarden but not bad.

The moral is: you CAN convert up to 80% adjunct if you take your time. I know there are "rules of thumb" that say (for example) that you shouldn't convert more than 50% adjunct (or even less), well sometimes you gotta try something new.

Didn't want to bring protein steps into it as I suspected this is OP's first partial? But I agree with what your saying completely.
On a side note, I think I have a partial recipe for a wit that uses the wheat more for cloudyness & not fermentables. I think it was my first wit & came out pretty bloody nice from memory

 

[esssee]

I'm after a little help.

I'm attempting an AG Witbier, and I am going to propagate some Heogaarden Yeast. Last time I tried a Witbier (two can), I added about 10g of crushed coriander, and about 30g of orange and lemon zest. I added it with 10 mins to go, and then threw it all into the fermenter.

To say it was awful is an understatement. I had the dreaded ham and celery flavours, so I left it in Primary for a few weeks, hoping they would mellow, but they didn't.

Needless to say the garden got a good drink of that one.

Any thoughts on leaving the Coriander out?

EDIT: I should also add that the Coriander wasn't toasted. Maybe this would help?

 

[slegar]

I had some corriander seeds (about 10g) that I dry roasted (in a frying pan with no oil, quite hot and keep them moving till browned as required) then crushed them. It seemed to give a nice hint to the brew. Apparently there are different types of corriander seed that have different flavours (round seed versus seed with pointed ends - later might be Indian?).

By "hint to the brew" are you meaning just a hint of the corriander overall, or a hint of roasty from browning them?

 

[jotaigna]

I'm after a little help.

I'm attempting an AG Witbier, and I am going to propagate some Heogaarden Yeast. Last time I tried a Witbier (two can), I added about 10g of crushed coriander, and about 30g of orange and lemon zest. I added it with 10 mins to go, and then threw it all into the fermenter.

To say it was awful is an understatement. I had the dreaded ham and celery flavours, so I left it in Primary for a few weeks, hoping they would mellow, but they didn't.

Needless to say the garden got a good drink of that one.

Any thoughts on leaving the Coriander out?

EDIT: I should also add that the Coriander wasn't toasted. Maybe this would help?

Hoegaarden bottle yeast is a neutral ale yeast, so it wont impart the tartness/breadiness you are after, they filter their good yeast before conditioning. Try a dry yeast like safbrew t-58. It matches price and convenience of reculturing from bottles.