Why Don't All Strains Dry?

[Mardoo]

n the wine yeast category I am unable to find or have never seen a liquid wine yeast advertised for sale as far as I can remember.

Now White Labs and Wyeast both sell liquid wine yeasts.:

http://www.whitelabs.com/wine
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hw_products.cfm

 

[hoppy2B]

Now White Labs and Wyeast both sell liquid wine yeasts.:

http://www.whitelabs.com/wine
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hw_products.cfm

Cool, thanks for that. I have only ever notice the dry stuff.

 

[Yob]

http://www.winemakermag.com/guide/yeast

Plenty about...

 

[super_simian]

Coopers use Mauri for their kit yeast.

I noticed in a previous post you mentioned having had a word with Dr Tim; did he give you that information? I know they use Mauri to manufacture their dried yeast, however Coopers have said on record that their dried yeast is a proprietary strain. Which would make it different to 514 ale yeast. I'm not trying to pick a fight here, just wondering if you have it from the horses mouth.

My 2c

I think Coopers uses 2 different yeast types for their kits.

Back in my K&K days I noticed the more expensive kits had INT stamped with the date on the outside of the yeast sachet and the texture was a mixture of large and small particles of different colours.... relatively speaking of course!

The standard kits all had the same size particles that were the same colour.

.... but....I know bugga all really.

G.

You are somewhat right; there are comprehensive guides for what yeast comes with what Coopers kit (here and on other sites), but they use more than 2 all up. And in at least one instance the supplied yeast is a blend, which may explain the difference in appearance.

 

[Yob]

this thread on the Coopers site outlines what the blends are for those that are interested

http://www.coopers.com.au/the-brewers-guild/talk-brewing?g=posts&t=1803

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

It is a propriety strain, but not the strain used in their bottles.

I had the pleasure of talking to Dr Tim for over an hour. He had much to say and was very open and passionate about beer. Even down to priming rates etc. They would have like to use the bottled yeast as a dried yeast but they could not get it to dry successfully . Hence they advocate the use of recoultering bottled yeast.

 

[peas_and_corn]

It's possible the Coopers yeast does not utilise glycogen stores very well.

 

[super_simian]

It is a propriety strain, but not the strain used in their bottles.

I had the pleasure of talking to Dr Tim for over an hour. He had much to say and was very open and passionate about beer. Even down to priming rates etc. They would have like to use the bottled yeast as a dried yeast but they could not get it to dry successfully . Hence they advocate the use of recoultering bottled yeast.

Did he have much else to say on their kit yeast? Because I've heard all kinds of things, including that it's "bread yeast" and of course "it's 514," and TBH I've used it for a few AG brews recently, with no complaints. Actually seems better to my palate than 04 or Notts. Knowing a bit more of its provenance would be good.

 

[RobB]

Plenty of good replies, but I think the answer is more likely to do with the yeast rather than with the economics.

It is an expensive process and the break-even point is at ridiculous volumes (in terms of production and sales - this process isn't "small batch" friendly as I hear it). There won't ever be a direct mapping between liquid and dry yeast varieties (unless the arse falls right out of the liquid yeast market, I guess).

Adding the extra step of dehydration, plus whatever is required to get the yeast ready for this harsh treatment, will certainly add cost. However, I can buy 220 billion cells in dry form for $4.50 and only 100 billion cells in liquid form for $9.80 (Craftbrewer, Nottingham vs Wyeast). Even in the US, with the freight cost all but removed from the liquid yeast, it's $4.00 vs $6.25 (Northern Brewer).

Cell for cell, dried yeast is cheaper to the end user, be they amateur or professional. However, I see your point about volume, and if a company wants to offer dozens of strains then perhaps liquid is their only option.

The thing I remember about this after listening to hours of podcasts on brewing is that some yeasts are better suited to the drying/rehydration process than others......They are able to survive. I believe the process for manufacturing dried yeast has got much better in the past few years and it's likely the more dried yeast strains will become available in time.

I think this might be closer to the mark. Consider WB-06 - a good yeast with both fans and detractors, but how much greater would the demand be if they had been able to dry 3638 or 3068? I don't think WB-06 was chosen by Safbrew over 3068, I think it chose itself because it survived drying when 3068 wouldn't.

It's possible the Coopers yeast does not utilise glycogen stores very well.

This is the kind of detail I was hoping to get into. Is a cell's ability to withstand dehydration governed by its structure, its metabolism, or some other factor?

 

[Feldon]

Is a cell's ability to withstand dehydration governed by its structure, its metabolism, or some other factor?

or cell wall thickness

 

[manticle]

Without getting too super scientific about it, consider the impact of dehydration on so many other foodstuffs and the fairly intense flavour impacts.

Mashed potato/deb, milk/milk powder, chicken soup, beer kits are but a few to consider. Never met a 'just add water 'idea that matched something that retained its water in the first place and the reason is probably because sucking the water out of something is a very harsh process. Some things don't cope and if they do cope, they are not necessarily the same afterwards.

None of this is meant to suggest I am not interested in the exact scientific process that occurs on a cellular level because I am - very.

As an aside - I'm not sure why people think using liquid yeast is difficult. A smack pack gets smacked and left for a while till it expands and then you can either add it straight to the wort if the gravity is low enough or make a starter. You can split and step up to save money but that is not a requirement.

A dry yeast pack can be added straight to wort (no need to smack) or rehydrated and if you read the proper instructions for rehydration, they are specific and require some small effort (bit like making a starter). If your gravity is high, you may need two packs, negating the supposed cost saving over liquid.

The extreme of open and sprinkle for dry versus the extreme of step and start on a stirplate for liquid does not represent the only way to use either.

You can **** around with dry and you can open and pour with liquid.

 

[Nick JD]

I'm not sure why people think using liquid yeast is difficult.

I am. You have to make a starter with it - otherwise you have no control over your pitch rates.

 

[bradsbrew]

I am. You have to make a starter with it - otherwise you have no control over your pitch rates.

Rubbish. I have never made a starter with a liquid yeast.

Edit. I must clarify that I only have used wyeast smack packs and have not used the white labs test tube vials.

 

[GuyQLD]

Rubbish. I have never made a starter with a liquid yeast.

I haven't either. But I tend to only brew styles where I want to use a liquid yeast based on when Ross gets a new supply. In that regard I'm somewhat treating them as "seasonal" (the "season" being when Ross gets new stock). Past a certain age, I look to a different beer.

I consider this more a limitation of my own fear of messing around with starters than a limitation of liquid yeasts.

The reality is however that the majority of the time a starter is probably a good idea.

 

[slash22000]

I've never used liquid yeast (no stir plate, yet), but I've noticed liquid yeasts on some sites with manufacturing dates like "June 2012" or something ... I tried plugging them into a yeast calculator and it tells me that they're virtually completely useless by that stage.

Are we at the whim of when retailers happen to get new stock? Is there a place in AU where we can get fresh yeast on demand? How do so many Aussie brewers use liquid yeast if it's so volatile?

 

[bradsbrew]

I have used plenty of wyeast smack packs. In my opinion, if it swells it will work within the gravity range stated by the manufacturer. Have not been let down yet and I get the expected final gravity. I also no chill and get a great airation before pitching. When doing big beers I will use a yeast cake which I guess you could call a starter of sorts.

Cheers

 

[Yob]

It would be good to have the option of the variety that you get with liquid as dry.. I really have to get my **** together and try a few more liquids

 

[Nick JD]

Rubbish. I have never made a starter with a liquid yeast.

Then you're underpitching by miles unless it's under a couple of weeks old.

 

[whatwhat]

wtf

 

[manticle]

I am. You have to make a starter with it - otherwise you have no control over your pitch rates.

Have to?

I use liquid yeast almost exclusively* and I make starters for some beers and not others. That's like saying you HAVE to rehydrate dried yeast.

You can make either format easy or difficult for any number of theoretical reasons.


*Nowadays - have used plenty of dried yeast straight out of the pack as well as rehydrated previously.