Why Do We Let The Co2 Escape?

[BjornJ]

http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/carbonation/
Having thought more about the article I read about this guy who collects CO2 from his primary fermenter and then uses it to force-carbonate mini-kegs with, I started thinking about

-would it be possible to put a solid lid on my fermenter and try fermenting beer without releasing the CO2 produced?

Would that carbonate the beer, I could siphon off into a bottles with just a little bit of sugar for "full" carbonation (I am making this up, all right. Have no idea of level of carbonation from this) and have less or no sediments in my beer bottles!

Is there a reason why this is not done?
I am not thinking of because the fermenter would break, that is not a reason. We could just wait say 3 days (or 4 or 5 or whatever is necessary) to make sure the pressure would not be to much before replacing the airlock with a solid plug.

I am thinking more along the lines of would the yeast stop working or anything like that?

Imagine if we could carbonate slightly higher in the fermenter than what we wanted, we could siphon off to secondary, then chill and fine, then bottle crystal clear, already carbonated beer

 

[Adamt]

I'm guessing there is a about 20 times the CO2 producted in a standardish batch than is required for carbonation. The standard fermenters are not designed to hold carbonated beer, let alone higher pressures. The tap will likely burst out first and that'll be the end of that.

The easiest way to accomplish this would be to get a proper vessel that is pressure rated, and install a safety release valve on it. You can get valves designed so that they release pressure only when the pressure is higher than x; standard cornelius kegs have these but i'm not sure what the value is.

 

[Supra-Jim]

How does yeast far at elevated pressures? I know they work under pressure during bottle conditioning/carbonation, however they also are doing considerably less/different work at this stage.

I remember hearing somewhere that yeast do not like/enjoy enviroments with elevated pressure. Stressed yeast could result in undesirable flavours etc.

Quick edit: It seems your concerned about sediment in the bottle. Try racking your beer to a secondary fermenter for a few days. Then bulk prime (do a search on this) and bottle as per normal. You should see dramatically less sediment in your bottles.

:icon_cheers: SJ

 

[Frag_Dog]

I'm guessing there is a about 20 times the CO2 producted in a standardish batch than is required for carbonation. The standard fermenters are not designed to hold carbonated beer, let alone higher pressures. The tap will likely burst out first and that'll be the end of that.

The easiest way to accomplish this would be to get a proper vessel that is pressure rated, and install a safety release valve on it. You can get valves designed so that they release pressure only when the pressure is higher than x; standard cornelius kegs have these but i'm not sure what the value is.

The Cornelius Kegs I have say they are rated to 130psi, so I expect the release valve would go around 100psi....

 

[alowen474]

I do believe some commercial brewers close off their gas release valve towards the end of the fermentation process for exactly that reason.
Their fermenters are set up to handle the carbonation pressures generated and it is reputed to give a finer carbonation and better head.
Yeast can handle the pressure or our bottle conditioned beers would not be fizzy.
You could decant to a corny keg towards the end of your primary fermentation and allow the secondary fermentation to carbonate your beer. Your corny keg will handle these pressures easily.
You might need to try a few batches to get the carbonation right but it will give good results.

Hope this helps.

 

[Supra-Jim]

Wasn't this raised in a recent thread about capturing CO2 and re-using it? Wouldn't the CO2 released during fermentation contain other esters/phenols/smells that may not be desirable to keep in your beer. I think the case in point was the lovely sulphury smell that emenates from a good lager ferment. Do you really want that in your beer?

:icon_cheers: SJ

 

[chappo1970]

...lovely sulphury smell that emenates from a good lager ferment. Do you really want that in your beer?

:icon_cheers: SJ

No No No NO You so don't want that smell lingering around ever!!! My ferment fridge ATM smells like a north end of a south bound camel (and yes I smell camel butts for a living ok).

I gotta say I think the effort would out strip the gain making it a useless exercise but hey who I am to talk?

Chappo

 

[Supra-Jim]

^^ Ed zachary

Plus you would lose control over the carbonation process to an extent as you would not know how much C02 you already dissolved in your beer. Could lead to either bottle bombs or under carbed beers.

I just don't see it working in practise, especially on a home brew scale.

(we all know you love sniffing camels Chappo, no need to brag about it!)

:icon_cheers: SJ

 

[BjornJ]

thanks for your replies.

I have never tried, but the article I linked to claims re-using the CO2 works fine and does not mention anything about bad smells or taste so I am not sure if that would cause any issues.

Maybe I will have to get a solid fermentation vessel and try it out, sounds like something worth trying, hehe.

Bjorn

 

[Adamt]

Playing with compressed gas is a dangerous hobby. CO2 is not flammable but a vessel blowout or large release of CO2 will asphyxiate - and likely kill - anyone close enough.

Have fun!

 

[Sammus]

I reckon just unclench your asscheecks and release the 2c it costs for enough gas to carb up a brew. Really -- you're not saving much by capturing the gas.

 

[Supra-Jim]

I looked at the link in the OP, and i must say the picture of the big smiley face balloon and bicycle pump didn't fill me with confidence about the information being provided on the page.

:icon_cheers: SJ

 

[captaincleanoff]

I reckon just unclench your asscheecks and release the 2c it costs for enough gas to carb up a brew. Really -- you're not saving much by capturing the gas.

:lol: :lol:

 

[Supra-Jim]

I reckon just unclench your asscheecks and release

Thought we were talking CO2 not Methane!

:icon_cheers: SJ

 

[afromaiko]

I've fermented and simultaneously carbonated in a PET bottle before, using Oztops.

 

[Asher]

spunding valves controll the pressure

 

[kook]

-would it be possible to put a solid lid on my fermenter and try fermenting beer without releasing the CO2 produced?

Would that carbonate the beer, I could siphon off into a bottles with just a little bit of sugar for "full" carbonation (I am making this up, all right. Have no idea of level of carbonation from this) and have less or no sediments in my beer bottles!

Is there a reason why this is not done?
I am not thinking of because the fermenter would break, that is not a reason. We could just wait say 3 days (or 4 or 5 or whatever is necessary) to make sure the pressure would not be to much before replacing the airlock with a solid plug.

This is quite common in the UK. They have fermenter pressure vessels that are also used for serving. However you wait until the fermentation is nearly finished before tightening off the lid. As others have stated - there is way too much CO2 released, along with many compounds released during fermentation that you probably don't want in your beer. There is no reason you can't cap it off when it's nearly finished though.

I wouldn't add sugar to bottles and then try and bottle the batch though. The sugar will act as nucleanation points for the CO2 in solution. You'll probably get a lot of foaming.

I also wouldn't use a standard fermenter, I'd purchase a proper pressure vessel from the UK. They have thicker walls, pressure relief valves, etc. They also normally have a top up point so you can add a little extra gas for serving (using little CO2 canisters).

 

[Effect]

zee germans do it

linky

Have a look at natural carbonisation...it's part of the Reinheitsgebot...a bit over the top but will help you on your way.

 

[mesa]

http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/carbonation/
I am thinking more along the lines of would the yeast stop working or anything like that?

Not so much stop working as work differently. I seem to remember reading on here that you can ferment a lager warm if you keep extra CO2 pressure on it to slow the yeast down. But really I know nothing about this.

I like the articles ingenuity in producing a working hand pump, but with the number of fittings he must have brought, I'm wondering if he saved any money .

 

[muckanic]

I am thinking more along the lines of would the yeast stop working or anything like that?

The ferment would be inhibited because the alcohol production reaction is a chemical equilibrium, and product removal helps drive the reaction to the right. This is also partly why yeast conks out at high ABVs. Having said that, bottle conditioning under pressure obviously works, albeit at a relatively slow rate.