Who Put The Apple Juice In My Beer?

[Beerbuoy]

My ales seem to have a sparkling apple juice flavor to them. Any ideas what it is, maybe just lack of age?

The latest brew was a kit Gold with body builder. Cluster hops boiled for 10min. US-05 yeast fermented at 18-20 and bottled about 4 weeks ago. I have had a hint of this flavor in previous brews but this one seems worse. Will it go away with age or is it an ale thing? To my knowledge the ales have a little more fruity flavour but when I first cracked this brew you would think you were drinking sparkling apple cider?



Cheers

Ian

 

[rclemmett]

ACETALDEHYDE

CHARACTERISTICS: Acetaldehyde is the flavor and aroma of green apples. It can also taste and smell acetic/cidery.

CHEMISTRY: Formed as a precursor to alcohol by the yeast, or as a product of the oxidation of alcohol to acetic acid.

CAUSES: Yeast metabolism (fresh-cut apples) uses acetaldehyde as a step in the production of alcohol from glucose. This is a fresh, fruity flavor. The second cause is the oxidation of alcohol to acetic acid, whether by oxidation or by acetobacter (gram-negative). This flavor will be more vinegary and less pleasant.

PROCESS: As a product of yeast metabolism, it can be caused by the strain itself or by premature termination of the yeasts fermentation, such as oxygen depletion, premature flocculation, etc. such that the reaction from glucose to alcohol is stopped at the acetaldehyde stage.

The other causes are oxidation and contamination by acetic acid bacteria. This will occur during splashing when racking quiet beer (non-kraeusened) and bottling.

REMOVAL: Use a good yeast strain that will attenuate the wort properly. Oxygenate the wort at yeast-pitching time. DO NOT splash or oxygenate the wort when racking or bottling. Long lagering periods will also reduce acetaldehyde.

EXAMPLES: Budweiser deliberately manipulates their yeast and process to give 6-8 ppm acetaldehyde in the beer.

 

[bowie in space]

Ales do have a fruitier flavour compared to lagers and pilsners. They are brewed at a higher temperature. I am about to invest in a 2nd hand fridge and either a tempmate or fridgemate so i can branch out more with my brews.

I am actually brewing an apple cider at the moment, so i can taste the difference between it and an ale, not because i particularly like apple cider, but because i want to learn the differences between a variety of brews.

Are all your brews in the same vain? Perhaps you could add more hops to help with the bitterness. My advice is to become more imaginative with kits n bits so you can control the sweetness and bitterness by adding what you want rather than a package deal.
Adding your own amounts of dextrose, light dried malt, hops and even steeping grains is a step into a larger world, and one that i am stepping into right now.

Others will have a lot better advice than me but that's my 2 bob.

Bowie

 

[Beerbuoy]

WHOOAAA!! Lets keep it simple for the newbie. I didn't spalsh the beer when bottling and I used US-05 which I believe has a reletivly high attenuation and I didn't stop the ferment half way through (not that I have any idea how to) so what does that leave. Long lagering time? for an ale??

P.S. I don't have an apple aroma and I would go with the fresh fruity variety not the vinegary type

 

[Beerbuoy]

Hey b.i.s

I am just getting into the grain steeping to try and improve the brews but as we all know the results take a while to come through. I have a fridge and fridgemate for my ales as its allways over 30deg up here in Rocky. I did my first lager not long ago. It was a Morgans Chairmans selection Cortes Cerveza. The results seem quite good staight out of the fermenter......but I didn't realise it had lime in the kit. Its not to bad but i'm not really a lime in beer type person. One thing i did note is its seems a lot drier then my ales and didn't have the apple flavour. Unfortunatly its hard to tell with beer beer flavour being more in the backgraound compared to that bloody lime.

Cheers

Ian

 

[muckey]

Just to add 2c -Rob is correct in judging acetaldehyde as it does indeed give a green apple or cidery taste. It doesnt come from splashing, its just produced by yeast as part of the fermentation cycle. give it a little bit of time in the bottle and the yeast will eventually clean it up.

Just leave the brew in the fermenter for a few days longer and keep fermentation temperature under control to keep the "apple" flavour at a manageable level

 

[rclemmett]

I can't say I'm an expert on acetaldehyde, but I can cut and paste like a demon. I opened up the very last bottle of the first brew I ever did the other week, and guess what it tasted like...... You guessed it, apple juice. It had been in the bottle for a little over two years and had not aged well. It was a coopers lager with 1kg of dex which came with the coopers homebrew kit.

The only experience I've had with this flavour was with kits and lots of dextrose. Since moving to grain I have not experienced it once.

So I will summise that it has to do with a relatively unhealthy ferment and using sugar. By unhealthy ferment I mean that the yeast does not get all the nutrients it needs and the by-product is acetaldeyde, which it is unable to clean up.

If this is incorrect, someone please correct me.

What was the kit, and what were the ingredients of the body builder BB?

 

[dr K]

Simple
Lots of things happen in fermentation, yeast does not directly convert sugar to ethanol.
The use of of sucrose (cane sugar in Oz) does NOT of itself lead to acetaldehyde production. Sucrose is converted by invertase to glucose and fructose which yeast then treats the same way as maltose, dextrose etc.
Acetaldehyde is simply the immediate pre-cursor to ethanol.
The beer quite simply has not finished fermenting, for any and all sorts of reasons.

K

 

[wambesi]

What was the kit, and what were the ingredients of the body builder BB?

That's what I want to know, do you know the breakdown of ingredients of this body builder mix?
I'm thinking along the lines of 500g dex, 150g maltodextrin and 250g LDME maybe? (one of the more common mixes).

When I was doing kits I found they could take on a cidery type taste when too much sugars like dextrose were used by itself.
Try using a bit more malt extract (dry or liquid) and see how it goes, you should find a much better taste and body to the brew.

Other than that the other thing I did which improved my beers was move to AG - but we can't all go there, so there other great options such as steeping of some speciality grains and/or partials.

 

[muckey]

Cut and paste maybe but you still need enough knowledge to know what to look for


sugar can give all kinds of flavours due the sucrose/fructose molecules being large and complex. Dextrose is relatively simpler and gives less flavours. The apple flavor is actually produced during ferment and some yeasts give more than others. The yeast will clean it up completely if there is not too much there but large amounts can still be dramatically reduced if the yeast is given time.

the most times I've tasted this in beers is from particular yeasts fermenter at higher temperatures.

It's really nothing to worry about and can be fixed in future brews by a bit of temperature control and time

EDIT: K explains it better than me

 

[Beerbuoy]

The kit was a Rocky brew slab from the LHBS. They are a local thing to Rockhampton but I am starting to wonder where they come from. Anyway I have had similar results from a coopers bitter but not as bad. The body buider consists of dextrose, maltodextrin and dry malt. Totaling 1.5 kg for 2 brews(60lt fermenter)

I don't have a problem with ferment temp as they are in a fridge with a fridgmate at 18deg. As for fermenting a few extra days I have them in the primary for 2 weeks before bottleing. I have assumed this is plenty long enough for an ale??

Here's 3 ideas I have. Please feel free to shoot them down. I kind of hope someone does.

1. Once bottled thay go in a dark cupboard. The temp in Rocky this time of year is at least 30-33deg during the day. Could the high temp during secondary fermentaion be causing the problem??

2. The beers I make are mostly midstrength ie reduced sugars and a couple litres extra water. Is it possible it may not be a healthy fermentation due to the lack of fermentables in midstrength beers?? This particular brew came out at 4.1%

3. Perhaps because it is a bit watery I am getting more of a fruity ale tast then tasting malt and hops??

By the way I am drinking one as I type so its not a total loss.

Cheers

Ian

 

[lczaban]

For my 2c, it seems as though there is a good chance that this problem is due to temperature control. Good yeasts, when stressed tend to impart less than desirable flavor characters to a finished beer. It's probably one thing I want to get under control myself so that the yeasts I use are given the best conditions in which to thrive and produce the tastiest beer possible. What temp was the beer brewed at? I would say that if the temp was high (+22 degrees) then you will probably find one of the reasons that you are getting appley/cidery tastes in your beers. This may lessen with time. Unless you have another brew that needs spare bottles, it might pay to hang onto them over a period of time and see if this taste dissipates in the brew as it matures.

Hopefully this and using quality adjuncts will see you brewing quality brews sooner than you realise. :icon_cheers:

PS - After reading your reply, I realise that temp control probably isn't an issue for you. Perhaps it may be some sort of subtle infection? Maybe something else to consider is that leaving the finished beer on a yeast cake might cause some sort of yeast autolysis (?) that could be imparting some funky flavours on the beer. Going through some sort of filtering/fining/racking process might improve your results. Best of luck!

 

[dr K]

Ferment temp is fine, time is way fine.
Order some American Ale Yeast from the s Qld supplier you see on the masthead, in fact order a few twin packs as the postage will be the same and you will never use under the lid yeast again.
Actually I used to find it hilarious that the LHBS I used to go to, the internet has changed a lot of things, would keep his extra cost yeast (Nottingham, SO4 etc) in the fridge because it was so important that yeast be kept cool but leave 100's of packets under 100's of lids of metal cans in an essentially un-airconditioned shop in sweltering temperatures.
I think it was a tools and shed thing.

K

 

[rclemmett]

The kit was a Rocky brew slab from the LHBS. They are a local thing to Rockhampton but I am starting to wonder where they come from. Anyway I have had similar results from a coopers bitter but not as bad. The body buider consists of dextrose, maltodextrin and dry malt. Totaling 1.5 kg for 2 brews(60lt fermenter)

I don't have a problem with ferment temp as they are in a fridge with a fridgmate at 18deg. As for fermenting a few extra days I have them in the primary for 2 weeks before bottleing. I have assumed this is plenty long enough for an ale??

Here's 3 ideas I have. Please feel free to shoot them down. I kind of hope someone does.

1. Once bottled thay go in a dark cupboard. The temp in Rocky this time of year is at least 30-33deg during the day. Could the high temp during secondary fermentaion be causing the problem??

2. The beers I make are mostly midstrength ie reduced sugars and a couple litres extra water. Is it possible it may not be a healthy fermentation due to the lack of fermentables in midstrength beers?? This particular brew came out at 4.1%

3. Perhaps because it is a bit watery I am getting more of a fruity ale tast then tasting malt and hops??

By the way I am drinking one as I type so its not a total loss.

Cheers

Ian

The high temps for conditioning wouldn't be helping the flavours, but I don't think they would cause acetaldehyde.

If you're making lower alcohol beers then I would get rid of the dextrose and maltodextrin, and just use malt. A kit and 500g of dry malt extract would probably be a step in the right direction.

 

[Beerbuoy]

Thanks K. I have been using US-05 from the LHBS and I get a laugh out of the same thing. I have considered getting my yeast from Craft Brew but the thought of it sitting on the front veranda in 35deg scared me of the idea. Are you saying that wont be a problem?

Rob2 I tend to agree with you there. I am trailing the partial thing atm. Have one down and just ordered some more bits and pieces from Ross. Will try an english ale yeast this time. Maybe its just the US-05 that doesn't agree with my taste. Who knows, I've got heaps to learn and there's only one way to find out.

Thanks everyone for the help

Cheers

Ian

 

[mika]

My beers always seem to 'turn' after a decent hot spell in summer, well at least those in bottles. Don't really know what it's about, but the yeast in the beer is a living organism. They seem to get spritzier and taste weird.
Not a possible infection that's showing up stronger this time due to the higher temps ?

 

[Bizier]

I will chime in that my 2nd brew (same session brewing as my first) was a Brigalow lager + 1kg dex and was a hit with the girls alone (sexism aside) because it tasted: "like a cider". I attribute this now to following the instruction on the kit rather than generally accepted information regarding fermentation phases.

Rob2 I tend to agree with you there. I am trailing the partial thing atm.

Go for it and go hard! I would keep your fermenter well covered if it is on the varandah to stop the contents skunking due to UV exposure.

 

[Hutch]

Ferment temp is fine, time is way fine.
Order some American Ale Yeast from the s Qld supplier you see on the masthead, in fact order a few twin packs as the postage will be the same and you will never use under the lid yeast again.
Actually I used to find it hilarious that the LHBS I used to go to, the internet has changed a lot of things, would keep his extra cost yeast (Nottingham, SO4 etc) in the fridge because it was so important that yeast be kept cool but leave 100's of packets under 100's of lids of metal cans in an essentially un-airconditioned shop in sweltering temperatures.
I think it was a tools and shed thing.

K

Only time I've ever experienced acetaldehyde was using 2 packs US-05 from said sponsor, and the packs were close to "best-before" date. It was a simple Aussie Ale AG batch along the lines of Coopers Pale, which I have previously had good success with using yeast cultured from the bottle. I fermented at a controlled 18 deg, all the usual processes etc. including a week post-fermentation in primary to help scrub the distinct apple flavour that was there. Only tried the US-05 as was curious to see what an "Aussie Ale" with a clean US yeast would turn out like.

I kegged it, and it didn't get any better over at least 6 months in the keg, so I eventually tipped it.

My conclusion here is that the old yeast most likely wasn't up to the job, and pitching 2 packs perhaps exagerated the problem, rather than providing the correct pitching rate, as was my intention.
I've tasted many great beers made with US-05, however I have also noticed this flavour in several case-swap beers that were also made with US-05, and it has me highly suspicious that this yeast has poor viability with long-term storage or temperature variability.
As for me, once bitten - twice shy. I now swear by large starters from liquid yeasts, and I'm consistently getting good results without obvious fermentation flaws.

Hutch.

 

[np1962]

I will chime in that my 2nd brew (same session brewing as my first) was a Brigalow lager + 1kg dex and was a hit with the girls alone (sexism aside) because it tasted: "like a cider". I attribute this now to following the instruction on the kit rather than generally accepted information regarding fermentation phases.



Go for it and go hard! I would keep your fermenter well covered if it is on the varandah to stop the contents skunking due to UV exposure.

I think he means the yeast sitting on the verandah when it's delivered. :icon_cheers:

 

[Wolfy]

PROCESS: As a product of yeast metabolism, it can be caused by the strain itself or by premature termination of the yeast's fermentation, such as oxygen depletion, premature flocculation, etc. such that the reaction from glucose to alcohol is stopped at the acetaldehyde stage.

You've ruled out most other things that people have suggested (splashing while bottling, fermentation temp etc) but no one has highlighted that the issue could be due to lack of oxygenation (especially if you're boiling some or all of your wort as you've indicated), could be worth splashing it around a stack as you put it in your fermenter, shaking really well or otherwise aerating well just before you pitch your yeast.