Whitelabs WLP013 London Yeast Query

[roller997]

I am wondering if anyone else had issues with this yeast and experienced "extreme" lag times?

WLP013 Yeast
Best before date of June 3 - 2014 so it should have had just under 50% of the viable yeast cells I am led to believe.

Here is what happened:
20/8 - Evening
The Erlenmeyer Flask and stirplate magnet was cleaned and sanitized. Then I created a starter with OG of 1.036 and boilied it for 20 minutes with aluminium foil on top and then chilled in a water bath until it was about 18-20 degrees. I am quite careful that nothing splashes up on the Flask.
I then added the WLP013 yeast and placed it on the stir plate expecting it to get started by the morning some time.
Ambient temperature 14-16 degrees over night and 18 during the day throughout the period.

21/8 - No visible activity at all

22/8 - Morning -No visible activity at all
I wrapped a 50Watt reptile heating cord around the flask and warmed it up intermittently - Guessing temperatures to be in the low 20's

23/8 - Morning No visible activity at all
I thought I might have missed the fermentation so I chilled the wort in the fridge to get the yeast to drop out and I took a SG measurement - It had not fermented anything AND the malt was a bit on the sour side.

23/8 - Late Evening
Heated it again and used stir plate

24 - 26/8 - Heated it with reptile heating cord intermittently and used the stir plate for a couple of more days but I never had any activity at all.

Next SG rating it had dropped a few points 1.032 so it could have been a lower reading due to higher temperature.
Tried the wort and it was a very tiny amount more sour but I could be wrong.


I have never had this before where yeast which is agitated for a few days and even heated.
I have also not had an infection since I started brewing, so I am comfortable that my sanitization procedures work quite well.


I have heard good things about this yeast fermenting quite cleanly and I was keen to try it but I wasn't going to risk a full batch
I tossed the starter last night and created another one with the Safale S04. This morning while on the stir plate it was quite active so at least this weekend I will have some viable yeast to brew as I missed out last weekend for the planned Sunday brew.

Any suggestion on what the lag times are for the London yeast?
Were the temperatures too cool?
Could the yeast have been off and already turned sour in the tube?

 

[Danwood]

Best before June 3rd and you used it in August....and you're expecting 50% viability ???

I'm assuming that's a typo in your post ?

Edit- BB date June 3rd, manufactured date Feb 3rd = <10% viability (Mr Malty)

 

[roller997]

No, that was not a typo as the good folks at the LHBS told me to expect about 50% viability at the best by date. I was a bit hopeful and without taking their word for it I had "hoped" it would be closer to 40%.

Checking with Beer Smith, it suggests about 29% after 6 months and 18% after 8 months. That should still be 18 Billion cells from the original 100 Billion to get started on starter which was on a stir plate, continually agitating the yeast.

In the past when going the "cheap" route, I have had numerous Wyeast packs that were more than 1 year old and without a stir plate, they expanded within less than a week.


Did you have any constructive suggestions?

 

[Blind Dog]

If you get nothing after that time with that yeast, it's dead. Probably mishandled somewhere along the way. WLP013 is a great yeast, complex flavours, reliable (YMMV), but slightly difficult to clear.

BTW, Why are you buying out of date yeast? Buy in date and split into 4 sanitized vials and grow starters from those if you trying to save dollars. My local LHBS gives away out of date yeast (or at least one does), and I've had about a 50% success rate with it but generally won't bother unless it's a specific strain I want

 

[manticle]

To be fair to Danwood, you've used an out of date yeast and it's not performed as expected so that's the first likely factor rather than something inherently difficult about the strain. If the starter didn't start, the yeast is cactus. Not to say you can't use old yeast but if old yeast doesn't work, it's probably due to it being old
Not all milk goes off by its use-by date but if it does, do you blame the species of cow or the age of the milk?

 

[Spiesy]

As others have said, that yeast is getting a little long in the tooth. What is also unknown is what shape the yeast was in (how it's been cared for since production).

Generally speaking Wyeast rate their yeasts with 50% more longevity, due to packaging. White Labs will be rolling out similar packaging soon.

Still, it's surprising that your starter didn't take off. Perhaps that yeast wasn't in the best shape to begin with?

 

[Spiesy]

BTW, Why are you buying out of date yeast? Buy in date and split into 4 sanitized vials and grow starters from those if you trying to save dollars. My local LHBS gives away out of date yeast (or at least one does), and I've had about a 50% success rate with it but generally won't bother unless it's a specific strain I want

You can save even more money with out of date yeasts.

Providing they're not dinosaurs, have been cared for appropriately and you're able to make decent starters - you should be okay.

I've never had a problem. But I usually won't use them when a couple of months out of code.

 

[Blind Dog]

You can save even more money with out of date yeasts.
Providing they're not dinosaurs, have been cared for appropriately and you're able to make decent starters - you should be okay.
I've never had a problem. But I usually won't use them when a couple of months out of code.

Don't get me wrong, I'll take the free ones if it's a strain I want to try, but I won't pay for out of date yeast. I just doesn't make sense as I figure if it's in date and karked it, I might wrangle a replacement, but if it's out of date then it was my risk.

 

[mje1980]

I just revived a small top crop of 1007 that was 11 months in the fridge. Put it in a 2 litre starter on the stir plate. 48 hrs it had a good thick krausen. While lot into a 1.062 beire de garde and overnight at 16c it has a nice 1" krausen. Old yeast can be revived if pampered with lots of love.

 

[roller997]

Thanks for the contributions.
Can I mention that I didn't mean to blame the strain and I was asking questions, rather than making accusations.

The yeast was purchased in April, so it is entirely my fault for not using it earlier as it would have been in date for a couple of months.
The yeast was kept at less than 3 degrees when it was in my possession so I would think it was handled OK.

The information I received in relation to Whitelabs (and looking back at it now), mentions that Whitelabs specify their "Best before" which the yeast should be at 50% viability at 4 months. That being the case, there appears to be a discrepancy between Beersmith and Mr Malty.

This was my second vial of Whitelabs I used as I have only used Wyeast for the past 8 years and dry yeast prior to that. As I mentioned, I had success with my "relaxed" approach in the past even if the yeasts was more than 12 months old and I didn't use a stir plate to agitate the yeast or a heating cord to keep it nice and warm.

It looks like buying yeast ahead of time to save trips to the shop is better suited to Wyeast and dry yeast or it might be time to stop stocking up on yeast ahead of the brew day.

 

[Danwood]

Sorry mate. That probably did come across as a bit blunt.

I didn't have time to type a long response (plus I'm certainty no expert), so I just said what I saw.

As has been said, you should still be able to salvage some cells from old vials, it'll just take lots of stepping up.

You didn't say how big the starter was (or I missed it), but you did say 'erlenmyer' so I'll assume 1L at least.

With old yeast you'd be better starting it off in a much smaller volume, so the ratio of surviving good cells is more favorable to any nasties that have snuck in. Then step up to your larger and ultimately, pitchable, volumes.

 

[Danwood]

Mr Malty asks for the manufactured date, I think other sources might be different ?

And Whitelabs state BB date, Wyeast state manufactured date (count back 4 months to get the WL manufactured date). Confusing !

We need industry standardisation, people !

 

[Spiesy]

The yeast was purchased in April, so it is entirely my fault for not using it earlier...

Looks like it was actually purchased 7th March, mate.

No wonder you've had some lag, that yeast was purchase almost 6-months ago!

 

[Weizguy]

I just revived a small top crop of 1007 that was 11 months in the fridge. Put it in a 2 litre starter on the stir plate. 48 hrs it had a good thick krausen. While lot into a 1.062 beire de garde and overnight at 16c it has a nice 1" krausen. Old yeast can be revived if pampered with lots of love.

I have experienced both of those (revived and defunct) scenarios with some W1007 recently. I started a small flask with a pitch from a 4 year old 500ml starter in a plastic bottle. The culture never sparked, and the flask still has clear wort and brown sediment from the bottle, but never showed signs of growth, 3 months later.

Another starter, this time in a 2 litre flask, from a 2 litre bottle, reserved from a yeast cake (from 2004). This time, took a few weeks, daily swirling (no stirplate yet). Ready to go, for an Altbier.

All depends on the circumstances that the yeast has endured.

 

[roller997]

Sorry mate. That probably did come across as a bit blunt.

I didn't have time to type a long response (plus I'm certainty no expert), so I just said what I saw.

As has been said, you should still be able to salvage some cells from old vials, it'll just take lots of stepping up.

You didn't say how big the starter was (or I missed it), but you did say 'erlenmyer' so I'll assume 1L at least.

With old yeast you'd be better starting it off in a much smaller volume, so the ratio of surviving good cells is more favorable to any nasties that have snuck in. Then step up to your larger and ultimately, pitchable, volumes.

No problems - My response wasn't very diplomatic either, so apologies for that.

The starter was 2.5l at 1.036 so the yeast may have been overwhelmed by the volume available.
I am still a bit stumped about the sour taste as I would have thought even nasty cells starting funky fermentations would have reduced the gravity.

In terms of the Beersmith calcs - It works off the start date. If I enter early Feb and a starting set of 100bil cells and I got 18.1% viability. I would not have expected that it takes 5 times longer to get started, just a slight delay along with a lower final cell count.


All good - I have switched to another yeast and I know that the only time to try White Labs is when I want to brew shortly after purchasing it.

 

[Yob]

or you can buy once and freeze off h34r:

 

[joshF]

Sorry a bit off topic but what other yeasts is this WLP013 comparable to? I made a maris otter fuggle smash 2 weeks back and the sample tastes pretty ordinary, not exactly bursting with flavour. I was half expecting that dry tangy s04 taste but this was nowhere to be seen. It almost tasted dirty (i've heard fuggles can throw that flavour?).

Oh and i didnt even have any LDME to make a starter so just threw the yeast in straight (best before date 4 October) and it kicked off within 24 hours.

 

[Yob]

Mr Malty Yeast Strains