Whirlpooling Not Really Working Very Well

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MaltyHops

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... Makes sense that the hose barb elbow I'm using isn't doing a great job, as it's right
at the edge and basically pointing the wort at the kettle wall. ...

Attaching a short length of silicon hose to the elbow to direct wort
out along kettle wall might be an option?
 

squirt in the turns

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Attaching a short length of silicon hose to the elbow to direct wort
out along kettle wall might be an option?

The barb already points parallel to the kettle wall, which due to the curve of the wall means it's pretty quickly just hitting it. A hose wouldn't really solve anything unless it could somehow be directed more into the middle of the kettle. If I'd posted a pic, you'd see what I mean. I'm going to swap the 90 degree barb for a bent bit of pipe stuck into a compression fitting before I brew tomorrow. I'll post before and after pics, hopefully including a pic of nice fat cone :ph34r:
 

squirt in the turns

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OK, here's what I had before:
before.jpg

A couple of chrome plated brass compression fittings and a bit of pipe later:
after.jpg

Yes, everything's filthy. It's recirculating napisan solution right now to clean up and also to test the whirlpool, and it seems to be working nicely. The day's half gone now so I'll kick off a double batch early tomorrow. Hopefully these modifications solve my problem.

I emailed Zymus (who make KoppaFloc) about the shelf life, and they replied that it's 730 days, which I suppose is a litigious way of saying 2 years, while accounting for that extra day that sometimes sneaks into February. I must have had mine at least that long, and of course I have no way of knowing when it was repackaged by CB, but I'll persist with it anyway and probably try Brewbrite further down the track.
 

squirt in the turns

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I think I must be doing something wrong with my kettle finings, either getting the dose wrong or (more likely) using out of date KoppaFloc. The below pics are of the aforementioned inaugural double batch. Not shown is the full kettle, post whirlpooling and chilling, which looked pretty clear (clouds of break were too submerged to see). I used 2 2400 W elements going full-pelt and chilled the 42 L of wort to 12C within an hour, so I am confident about both hot and cold break. Unfortunately I just can't get it to flocculate. Chucked a slurry of Polyclar PPVP into the whirlpool just for fun.

I threw the hop pellets in loose for this one, for no real reason but to see the effect of the whirlpool on them. As donburke suggested, I bypassed the chiller, but at the start of the whirlpool not the end, to encourage less hop material to go through it, adding it into the loop 10 mins after flameout. Its effect on flow is noticeable but not dramatic. After turning off the pump, the chilled wort was left to settle for about 25 mins.

After draining about half the wort:
20121021_164015_resized.jpg

As before, all the break is evenly dispersed throughout the wort. It does seem to sink as it wasn't visible in the full volume of wort, just doesn't actually clump and properly fall out.

After draining all of it:
20121021_165119_resized.jpg

Based on the hop cone, I'd say the whirlpool definitely works now. Maybe the angle of the nozzle is too acute, but I can fix that.

Pinning my hopes of BrewBrite for now, unless anyone has any other wisdom to contribute?
 

Byran

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I think I must be doing something wrong with my kettle finings, either getting the dose wrong or (more likely) using out of date KoppaFloc. The below pics are of the aforementioned inaugural double batch. Not shown is the full kettle, post whirlpooling and chilling, which looked pretty clear (clouds of break were too submerged to see). I used 2 2400 W elements going full-pelt and chilled the 42 L of wort to 12C within an hour, so I am confident about both hot and cold break. Unfortunately I just can't get it to flocculate. Chucked a slurry of Polyclar PPVP into the whirlpool just for fun.

I threw the hop pellets in loose for this one, for no real reason but to see the effect of the whirlpool on them. As donburke suggested, I bypassed the chiller, but at the start of the whirlpool not the end, to encourage less hop material to go through it, adding it into the loop 10 mins after flameout. Its effect on flow is noticeable but not dramatic. After turning off the pump, the chilled wort was left to settle for about 25 mins.

After draining about half the wort:
View attachment 57963

As before, all the break is evenly dispersed throughout the wort. It does seem to sink as it wasn't visible in the full volume of wort, just doesn't actually clump and properly fall out.

After draining all of it:
View attachment 57964

Based on the hop cone, I'd say the whirlpool definitely works now. Maybe the angle of the nozzle is too acute, but I can fix that.

Pinning my hopes of BrewBrite for now, unless anyone has any other wisdom to contribute?
View attachment 57979
I done this one recently, BIAB, no flocculating agents at all. Just good 70 min boil and whirlpool.
I use a metal grid to prevent the bag from burning on the pot during heating, I found that If I left it in there during whirl pooling it ended up looking a lot like yours, lots of trub on the outside edges. would think it affects the whirlpool due to turbulence and would behave similar to your heating elements............
I used whirfloc until I ran out. It does form a much stickier protein ball but it seems to work fine without it. I would definitely suggest you adjust your whirlpool inlet pipe it will make a big difference. The pipe seem to be quite far out from the pots edge? Also the heating elements would create restriction to the whirlpool effect in your case, Would this not create turbulent flow characteristics in your trub pile? Just a thought, but if centrifugal force is not acting on the liquids then maybe that is contributing to the bulk of the trub in the outer rings of the pile. The liquid may not be getting enough free moment around the trub pile and this may be causing your trub to be separating from the central pile in the whirlpool.
Just sayin.......
 

mckenry

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I think I must be doing something wrong with my kettle finings, either getting the dose wrong or (more likely) using out of date KoppaFloc. The below pics are of the aforementioned inaugural double batch. Not shown is the full kettle, post whirlpooling and chilling, which looked pretty clear (clouds of break were too submerged to see). I used 2 2400 W elements going full-pelt and chilled the 42 L of wort to 12C within an hour, so I am confident about both hot and cold break. Unfortunately I just can't get it to flocculate. Chucked a slurry of Polyclar PPVP into the whirlpool just for fun.

I threw the hop pellets in loose for this one, for no real reason but to see the effect of the whirlpool on them. As donburke suggested, I bypassed the chiller, but at the start of the whirlpool not the end, to encourage less hop material to go through it, adding it into the loop 10 mins after flameout. Its effect on flow is noticeable but not dramatic. After turning off the pump, the chilled wort was left to settle for about 25 mins.

After draining about half the wort:
View attachment 57963

As before, all the break is evenly dispersed throughout the wort. It does seem to sink as it wasn't visible in the full volume of wort, just doesn't actually clump and properly fall out.

After draining all of it:
View attachment 57964

Based on the hop cone, I'd say the whirlpool definitely works now. Maybe the angle of the nozzle is too acute, but I can fix that.

Pinning my hopes of BrewBrite for now, unless anyone has any other wisdom to contribute?

Hi Squirt,
Only skimmed the thread, so not sure if this has been suggested.
From your picture, you need to be whirlpooling anti-clockwise. With your pickup tube pointing to the right, the flow needs to slide past the opening. If you whirlpool clockwise, the flow will try to force up the pickup tube, causing turbulence. Even if the pickup is full of wort, the edges do cause turbulence. Any chance you can change that wort return to face right as well? Seems to be 'fighting' the pickup, wrt whirlpooling.
mckenry
 

ashley_leask

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I think I must be doing something wrong with my kettle finings, either getting the dose wrong or (more likely) using out of date KoppaFloc. The below pics are of the aforementioned inaugural double batch. Not shown is the full kettle, post whirlpooling and chilling, which looked pretty clear (clouds of break were too submerged to see). I used 2 2400 W elements going full-pelt and chilled the 42 L of wort to 12C within an hour, so I am confident about both hot and cold break. Unfortunately I just can't get it to flocculate. Chucked a slurry of Polyclar PPVP into the whirlpool just for fun.

I threw the hop pellets in loose for this one, for no real reason but to see the effect of the whirlpool on them. As donburke suggested, I bypassed the chiller, but at the start of the whirlpool not the end, to encourage less hop material to go through it, adding it into the loop 10 mins after flameout. Its effect on flow is noticeable but not dramatic. After turning off the pump, the chilled wort was left to settle for about 25 mins.

After draining about half the wort:
View attachment 57963

As before, all the break is evenly dispersed throughout the wort. It does seem to sink as it wasn't visible in the full volume of wort, just doesn't actually clump and properly fall out.

After draining all of it:
View attachment 57964

Based on the hop cone, I'd say the whirlpool definitely works now. Maybe the angle of the nozzle is too acute, but I can fix that.

Pinning my hopes of BrewBrite for now, unless anyone has any other wisdom to contribute?

I've used both plate and immersion chillers, and what you're getting I think is pretty standard for chilling in the kettle. Cold break just doesn't settle the way hot break and hop material does. You look to have a pretty decent cone formed in the centre so I don't think your elements are interfering with the whirlpool too much.

If you want to chill in the kettle there'll be more trub to deal with (cold as well as hot break and hop matter) and the cold break just won't settle into a cone the way the other two do.
 

squirt in the turns

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I done this one recently, BIAB, no flocculating agents at all. Just good 70 min boil and whirlpool.
I use a metal grid to prevent the bag from burning on the pot during heating, I found that If I left it in there during whirl pooling it ended up looking a lot like yours, lots of trub on the outside edges. would think it affects the whirlpool due to turbulence and would behave similar to your heating elements............
I used whirfloc until I ran out. It does form a much stickier protein ball but it seems to work fine without it. I would definitely suggest you adjust your whirlpool inlet pipe it will make a big difference. The pipe seem to be quite far out from the pots edge? Also the heating elements would create restriction to the whirlpool effect in your case, Would this not create turbulent flow characteristics in your trub pile? Just a thought, but if centrifugal force is not acting on the liquids then maybe that is contributing to the bulk of the trub in the outer rings of the pile. The liquid may not be getting enough free moment around the trub pile and this may be causing your trub to be separating from the central pile in the whirlpool.
Just sayin.......

Cheers Bryan. The whirlpool return is kind of out of proportion in my photo as it's a lot closer to the lens. You're right that it could be a bit long. When you suggest adjusting it, do you mean changing the angle (to point slightly less at the kettle wall)? Or just the length? I could achieve both at the same time by taking a bit of the end with the pipe cutter. Wouldn't even need to remove it from the kettle.

Hi Squirt,
Only skimmed the thread, so not sure if this has been suggested.
From your picture, you need to be whirlpooling anti-clockwise. With your pickup tube pointing to the right, the flow needs to slide past the opening. If you whirlpool clockwise, the flow will try to force up the pickup tube, causing turbulence. Even if the pickup is full of wort, the edges do cause turbulence. Any chance you can change that wort return to face right as well? Seems to be 'fighting' the pickup, wrt whirlpooling.
mckenry

This seems counter-intuitive to me, if I understand your point correctly. The wort return nozzle/inlet is the thing on the right, directing the returning wort anti-clockwise. The pickup tube is on the left, with the opening facing into the flow, so that the wort is sucked into the tube without changing direction (until it hits the elbow). If I were to turn the pickup tube around, the wort would be changing direction as it's sucked up. Wouldn't that create more turbulence and/or cause a loss of kinetic energy as the wort takes a more convoluted path?

I've used both plate and immersion chillers, and what you're getting I think is pretty standard for chilling in the kettle. Cold break just doesn't settle the way hot break and hop material does. You look to have a pretty decent cone formed in the centre so I don't think your elements are interfering with the whirlpool too much.

If you want to chill in the kettle there'll be more trub to deal with (cold as well as hot break and hop matter) and the cold break just won't settle into a cone the way the other two do.

Yeah, I was pretty pleased with that much at least. It didn't really look like there was much hot break in the cone, though. I did get almost no hop material in the fermenter, so I guess the basic dynamics of the whirlpool are working for me here. Just not convinced that much break material, hot or cold, is in that cone. That said, I did skim the boil a bit. I don't normally bother, but after the initial foam dissipation, some hot break kind of persisted and almost formed a "skin" on the wort at the edges where the surface is not broken continually by the rolling boil. This might account for seeing little of it at the end. As you suggest, the cloudy break in the pics may all be cold break. I guess I don't really care if it ends up in the fermenter. Anyway, will try Brewbrite and see what happens.
 

mckenry

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This seems counter-intuitive to me, if I understand your point correctly. The wort return nozzle/inlet is the thing on the right, directing the returning wort anti-clockwise. The pickup tube is on the left, with the opening facing into the flow, so that the wort is sucked into the tube without changing direction (until it hits the elbow). If I were to turn the pickup tube around, the wort would be changing direction as it's sucked up. Wouldn't that create more turbulence and/or cause a loss of kinetic energy as the wort takes a more convoluted path?

OK I understand your setup better now. What I am saying, is you still need the direction of each of the pickup and return the same. Your chilling will still work fine facing the same way, as the pump will suck it in nicely. If you can turn your wort return to the left, when it comes to whirlpooling, (now do it clockwise) the total flow will be more laminar. Whirlpooling past any two objects pointing the same way will be smoother than having the outlet / inlet of each pointing in opposite directions. Hope this explains it better? My whirlpool was significantly better once I turned my wort return 180.
 

QldKev

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I think I must be doing something wrong with my kettle finings, either getting the dose wrong or (more likely) using out of date KoppaFloc. The below pics are of the aforementioned inaugural double batch. Not shown is the full kettle, post whirlpooling and chilling, which looked pretty clear (clouds of break were too submerged to see). I used 2 2400 W elements going full-pelt and chilled the 42 L of wort to 12C within an hour, so I am confident about both hot and cold break. Unfortunately I just can't get it to flocculate. Chucked a slurry of Polyclar PPVP into the whirlpool just for fun.

I threw the hop pellets in loose for this one, for no real reason but to see the effect of the whirlpool on them. As donburke suggested, I bypassed the chiller, but at the start of the whirlpool not the end, to encourage less hop material to go through it, adding it into the loop 10 mins after flameout. Its effect on flow is noticeable but not dramatic. After turning off the pump, the chilled wort was left to settle for about 25 mins.

After draining about half the wort:
<<pic snip>>

As before, all the break is evenly dispersed throughout the wort. It does seem to sink as it wasn't visible in the full volume of wort, just doesn't actually clump and properly fall out.

After draining all of it:
<<pic snip>>

Based on the hop cone, I'd say the whirlpool definitely works now. Maybe the angle of the nozzle is too acute, but I can fix that.

Pinning my hopes of BrewBrite for now, unless anyone has any other wisdom to contribute?


How are you going with your whirlpool? Have you tried Brewbrite? Have you tried leaving the lid on?

Here's mine from today's Munich Helles. This is in my 'Little Bro' system a 50L keggle. The photo I posted before was on my bigger 3V setup 'Big Bro' that's kettle is a 140L pot.


whirlpool_helles.jpg


QldKev
 

squirt in the turns

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How are you going with your whirlpool? Have you tried Brewbrite? Have you tried leaving the lid on?

Here's mine from today's Munich Helles. This is in my 'Little Bro' system a 50L keggle. The photo I posted before was on my bigger 3V setup 'Big Bro' that's kettle is a 140L pot.


View attachment 58251


QldKev

Kev, we don't need any more pictures of your perfectly formed cones :p

Haven't brewed since the double batch I pictured before. :( But I have picked up some Brewbrite and will hopefully get another batch down within the next week. The in-laws are staying for a few weeks and they're curious about the whole AG thing, so I'll be brewing a hefeweizen so that they can witness the process and be drinking the results before they leave. Not the best style to test beer clarification techniques, but hopefully any improvements to the trub cone will be evident.
 

GuyQLD

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Hopefully this isn't moving off topic - For those who get really good whirlpools do you find that your hops make a difference? I generally use a hop sock and no chill so the only thing I'm looking at is hot break. Even then the best whirlpool I ever got was without using whirlfloc. Seems whenever I use whirlfloc I get fluffy break material and it just refuses to sit still.

Having another crack at Smurto's LandLord this weekend and was thinking about giving the hop sock the flick since I want to put the styrians in really really late (last time I brought them forward so I could use the sock..)

I know some people say that'll increase trub - but with whirlpools like Qkevs, not sure if it'd make much difference. In fact I'd probably get more out. Of failing that, should I just add the hops to the sock at flameout and let it sit for it's 15 minutes anyway? After that I could pull it out and whirlpool as normal.

Yes, no, bugger it just go and make beer?
 

argon

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My 2c. Get yourself a false bottom for that kettle and never have to whirlpool again with crystal clear wort into cube/chiller with immediate draining of the kettle.
1E1731E8-DF61-489F-846F-152EA82F1504-4130-000003C722E086D2.jpg
 

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