When to dry hop a boh pilsner?

[chefeffect]

So I was going to throw some saaz in at flame output got busy and forgot, when should I dry hop? In primary? It would probably only get a few days or in the secondary during lagering? Or in the keg?

 

[labels]

You should never dry hop a Boh Pils or any lager. It will overtake the delicate balance of a lager and stuff it up. At best (or worst) try 5g per 23L for max 24 hours and NOT Saaz, it is the world's worst hop for dry hopping, your beer will taste like lawn clippings. Next time try First Wort Hopping with as much Saaz as you can afford up to about 30IBU's, you'll be very happy

-=Steve=-

 

[Florian]

Never.

 

[chefeffect]

Ok cool, thanks guys. Might just leave it, I'm sure it will be good with out.. Glad I asked gots some different opinions from a quick google search.

 

[Bizier]

Yeah, as above.

If it is particularly lacklustre, you could make it more exciting with a new style oil-focus hop.

 

[Florian]

Yep, nothing wrong with dry hopping a Pils with Cascade or Citra, just don't call it Boh Pils then.

 

[Black n Tan]

Next time try First Wort Hopping with as much Saaz as you can afford up to about 30IBU's, you'll be very happy

-=Steve=-

Labels, do you use 100% of the hops as FWH?

 

[Bizier]

Yep, nothing wrong with dry hopping a Pils with Cascade or Citra, just don't call it Boh Pils then.

Or NZ hops. I hopped an IPA in the keg with some Motueka flowers about 10 mins ago and it is instantly delicious. Obviously the amounts would be much smaller to spruce up a pils and keep it balanced and pils-like.

 

[chefeffect]

I just read 30% of the hops you would have used but at the FWH and don't adjust for bitterness? Never done it on purpose my first brew I did by accident but that's another story.

Labels you mentioned on your blog to not reuse lager yeast due to diaccetyl being 2-3 times more present, is this from experience? And why does this happen?

 

[Bizier]

...not reuse lager yeast due to diaccetyl being 2-3 times more present...

I also wish to know the origin of this statistic. Most beer in the world is lager and most yeast in the world is reused, especially in lager breweries, and generally the primary concern when brewers are releasing a lager is VDK.

 

[mxd]

never use saaz dry, I did it once but never again (lawn clippings)

I dry hop my "oz" or lawnmower lager, with some of the american hops it won't satisfy a style but it's for drinking.

 

[chefeffect]

I wonder if the reason labels doesn't recommend refusing the lager yeast is because he uses the higher d-rest mothod of 18-20deg. I doubt you would want to reuse it after those higher temps which would probably stuff the yeast for reuse.

 

[Bizier]

A valid point, and I have been recently reading on the subject. Good techniques revolve around having a cylindroconical fermenter so you can harvest a cut of yeast for storage at the appropriate gravity and remove the remaining yeast in the cone at terminal gravity, and the residual cells in suspension will uptake the diacetyl. There is a quote in the Boulton/Quain book basically saying it is a misconception that the yeast in the cone is necessary for VDK uptake, and that having the beer on the flocced yeast at this stage is negatively impacting beer quality.

 

[chefeffect]

Traditional breweries generally don't use a temp ramping method for d-rest, it has been adapted for home brew due to lack of equipment to do a tradtional d- rest which involves dropping the wort.temp just under a degree a day till it reaches 3-4degs. At this point the yeast is still active and not shocked, so it continues to ferment the last 1/3-1/4 of fermentables at this temp, its at this point they do the traditional d-rest. The yeast never goes above the recommended temp range. I have only just read this myself in the past week.

 

[Mr. No-Tip]

I wonder if the reason labels doesn't recommend refusing the lager yeast is because he uses the higher d-rest mothod of 18-20deg. I doubt you would want to reuse it after those higher temps which would probably stuff the yeast for reuse.

Many lager brewers I know and respect do their starters just under 20 degrees. I realise the 'full batch context' is going to change things, but to me it suggests that the yeast isn't necessarily stuffed at higher temps?

 

[chefeffect]

Yeah that's true, I didn't think of that. I have no idea then?

 

[Bizier]

Traditional breweries generally don't use a temp ramping method for d-rest, it has been adapted for home brew due to lack of equipment to do a tradtional d- rest which involves dropping the wort.temp just under a degree a day till it reaches 3-4degs. At this point the yeast is still active and not shocked, so it continues to ferment the last 1/3-1/4 of fermentables at this temp, its at this point they do the traditional d-rest. The yeast never goes above the recommended temp range. I have only just read this myself in the past week.

I don't know where I would obtain the statistic, but I would suggest that the bulk of commercial lager is maunfactured using an ascending ferment temperature, followed by crash chilling. I highly doubt the ascending ferment profile was invented for home brew.

I am sure you know the mechanisms at play, but here is a good little crash course in VDK:
http://www.draymans.com/articles/arts/03.html

 

[labels]

Labels, do you use 100% of the hops as FWH?

Yes I do and it works out really good, just chuck the whole lot in and tip your runnings in on top. Have even tried adding hops to the mash, that works really well you would be surprised to know

 

[chefeffect]

I don't know where I would obtain the statistic, but I would suggest that the bulk of commercial lager is maunfactured using an ascending ferment temperature, followed by crash chilling. I highly doubt the ascending ferment profile was invented for home brew.

I am sure you know the mechanisms at play, but here is a good little crash course in VDK:
http://www.draymans.com/articles/arts/03.html

Great read cheers, very informative. This is a page I read lately found it really good. Pretty much explains what I was trying to say, only better than I did.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers

 

[labels]

Traditional breweries generally don't use a temp ramping method for d-rest, it has been adapted for home brew due to lack of equipment to do a tradtional d- rest which involves dropping the wort.temp just under a degree a day till it reaches 3-4degs. At this point the yeast is still active and not shocked, so it continues to ferment the last 1/3-1/4 of fermentables at this temp, its at this point they do the traditional d-rest. The yeast never goes above the recommended temp range. I have only just read this myself in the past week.

You are absolutely correct in what you've stated. Germans generally start the ferment at 4-5C under the ferment temp and allow it to free rise to the temp of around 12C (yeast depending) Then start dropping very slowly when the gravity is about 2/3rds to 3/4qrts done.
I've always maintained not everything is scalable to homebrewing and even if it is, it may not work out as best practice. For example, a lot of homebrewers mash-out. If you're dealing 12500 litres of wort it makes a lot of sense to preserve that malt profile. I batch sparge a 50 litre brewery. I empty quickly and get the heat on the wort and then immediatelly add the first sparge water which is over 80C to end up with a ~75C lautering. Negates the mash -out in my system.

Steve