What's The Most Efficient Liquor To Grist Ratio If Space In The Ma

[trevc]

Hey guys,

Just planning some future double batches here, and trying to determine how to most effectively use my 55L esky mashtun (beerbelly false bottom).

The recipe I'm playing with has an 11.5kg grain-bill. So far I'm looking at the following:

- 20.7L of mash-in water (1.8L/kg)
- Approximately 22L of mash-out water (or as needed) to bring it to 78C (aprox 3.7L/kg)
- This should fill the esky to right around the 50L mark. I don't think I'd push it much further
- batch sparge to equal the correct pre-boil volume

Is a 1.8L/kg liquor to grist ratio acceptable?

A big thanks in advance for any further input and knowledge. I tried the forum search (and google) without much luck.

 

[mika]

It's pretty thick, should work, might not just get the best fermentability or efficiency out of it. This calc can confirm your calcs as well.

 

[BenH]

Other option is to not do a mash-out, which will allow a greater amount of mash water. Sparge relatively quickly and then begin heating in your kettle straight away if you're worried about denaturing enzymes. Your batch sparge temp should ensure you extract the most amount of extract from the grain.

 

[trevc]

Thanks

BenH: That was the next question I had. You beat me to it. If I were to skip mash-out, what temperature should I sparge at?

 

[BenH]

I've just looked through my logs, and I've rarely done a mashout when batch sparging. However, if fly sparging, I do try to do a mashout (but don't ask me why, I don't have an explanation).

trevc: Batch sparge at the same temp you were going to. I try to sparge at 76 deg, but find I need water one or two degrees higher than that to bring the grain and tun up to temp.

 

[trevc]

That makes things way easier. I could even fit a big double-batch strong belgian in there at 2.5L/kg+

Basically, a mash-out is ideal, but not required? Especially if you're aiming to sparge at the same temperature?

Only one AG under my belt so far, and moving to double-batches. Want to make sure I get everything right.

...but find I need water one or two degrees higher than that to bring the grain and tun up to temp.

I experienced exactly the same. I figured it was partially due to the cooler than normal outside air temperature. The Gold Coast was unusually chilly that night I was brewing.

 

[newguy]

A mash-out does two things: it increases your efficiency and it stops enzymatic activity which "locks in" your beer's dextrin/fermentable balance.

Water: for optimum efficiency it's important to work out your water budget beforehand. A water budget looks like this:

- Finished volume of wort in fermenter: 42l
- Amount of wort lost to trub in kettle: 1l
- Amount of water lost to evaporation in kettle: This varies - when I boiled on an electric stove indoors I lost 3.3l/hour and now that I boil outside using a propane burner I lose 5.8l/hour. Use these numbers and your own experience to come up with a number. For my typical 90 minute boils outdoors, I lose 8.7 l total.
- Amount of water lost to grain in the mash: 1.54l/kg - trust me on this. For a mash with 9kg of grain, you'll lose 13.86l.
- Total water required: 42 + 1 + 8.7 + 13.86 = 65.56l = 65.6 or 66l.

If you mash in with 40l, you'll need another 26l for sparging. Hope this helps.

 

[T.D.]

Other option is to not do a mash-out, which will allow a greater amount of mash water.

That's what I would do. Personally I wouldn't want to go below 2:1 ratio, preferably would rather be at 2.5:1 or greater if possible. I've never mashed out in my life and know plenty of people who do and can't see any noticable difference in our beers. I sparge at around 75-78 degress (probably closer to 75 when you account for heat losses in the transfer)

 

[gibbocore]

Skip the mashout addition but use one of those handheld imersion elements to hit your mashout temp? That ay you can stay at 2.5:1 and not lose out on efficiancy points.

 

[Frank]

Trev
This is my general procedure.
1. Mash approx 2.5 to 3.0L/kg grist
2. Drain 1st run wort to Kettle (Have your kettle on the burner ready to go, when 20mm in bottom - start heating)
[This immediatlely heating in the kettle will aid in denaturing enzymes, (similar to mash out, but not) and save time at the end of the day]
3. Sparge with 80 degree water from HLT
4. Keep sparging until correct volume in kettle, I use steel ruler as dip stick.
(I don't worry if mash is still quite wet once complete)

Boston

 

[trevc]

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately my kettle/HLT are the same vessel (for now). I've been draining the tun in to a spare fermenter. It wouldn't be possible to start heating immediately.

 

[reVoxAHB]

Hey trevc,

Another option is to start with 3.0 Water/kg grain ratio and do a decoction between steps. That way, you can mo, introduce protein or acid rests as desired, etc... because you are not required to add additional water to the mash, you can stay well below the 55L restriction.

Palmer explains decoction quite simply on pages 171/172 in How To Brew, and software like BeerSmith can calculate volume to pull and temps, taking the guesswork out of the procedure. It's really easier than a lot of brewer's who have never decocted think (imo). I say this because you're new to AG, and decocting is often assumed to be an advanced technique and therefore avoided. There are, of course, other debatable (aren't they all?) benefits to decoction like improved extraction, malt character, etc.

Alternately, you can build a HERMS, start (and again finish) with 3.0 w/kg ratio.

reVox

 

[rich_lamb]

I like the scheme Boston suggested. You'll get pretty much 50/50 split of brewers saying "dont bother with mashout" or "you need to mashout", but basically if it's stuffing up other aspects of your mash you should skip it or work it in another way.

As suggested, heat with an element, do a decoction, or get it onto heat quickly. There's all sorts of ways to avoid it cooling too much and that's if your trying to avoid fermentability - if you're doing a belgian you would need as much fermentability as you can get.

I understand the juggling issue too - I do the same thing. I store my wort in my bottling bucket till I'm finished making sparge water, then my HLT becomes my kettle. I think getting a separate HLT is a priority for this reason. But I use a small amout of very hot water to raise my mash to about 73 before sparging (it's not really a mashout - it's a rest, but it achieves similar results)

 

[trevc]

My current inventory for double-batching is a 90L kettle/HLT, and 55L esky mash-tun.

Would it be asking for trouble skipping a mash-out, then transferring in to the fermenters (before the kettle)? The wort would be sitting there until sparging was complete. As mentioned, the kettle is also the HLT for now. The mash-out temperatures helping with "denaturing enzymes" has been mentioned. How critical is this?

 

[trevc]

Decoction doesn't sound too difficult or technical, just more work I'm sure I'll get there eventually. Unfortunately I'm banned from buying "beer stuff" for a while, so there won't be an HLT addition. About to make the wife some Double Choc Porter, that should score some big points.

 

[newguy]

My current inventory for double-batching is a 90L kettle/HLT, and 55L esky mash-tun.

Would it be asking for trouble skipping a mash-out, then transferring in to the fermenters (before the kettle)? The wort would be sitting there until sparging was complete. As mentioned, the kettle is also the HLT for now. The mash-out temperatures helping with "denaturing enzymes" has been mentioned. How critical is this?

It's more an issue of consistency than anything else. It's a variable that you can't turn off so trying to recreate a batch may be an issue - whether that's a concern is really up to you. There's a brewpub in town that has a non-steam-jacketed mash tun and they can't do a mashout because of it. The brewer has stated that he can tell the difference in the finished product between the batches that sparge quickly and those that stick & drag on. Because the enzymes aren't being denatured, they still happily keep working - maybe not at their optimum rate, but they're still going. He said the net effect is that the gravity of the wort that he runs off will, over time, gradually increase. I know that doesn't sound right, but think about it. The wort contains a mixture of dextrins and short chain simple sugars. Beta amylase nibbles simple sugars off the ends of dextrins. By slowly eating these dextrins, they're effectively increasing the concentration of simple sugars.

Is there any way you can add boiling water to your mash tun? That's what I used to do pre-HERMS when I mashed in an esky.

 

[trevc]

If the dextrins are further breaking down over time, wouldn't that create a problem with bottle conditioning and CO2 build-up?

I could try boiling water in my 50L kettle on the stove to use for sparging, not sure how much luck I'd have. My only other stock pot is a 15L.
At least this way I could have the kettle under the mash-tun shortly after after mash-in.

I'll buy an element for the old 50L kettle, and make it my HLT. Just not yet

 

[newguy]

If the dextrins are further breaking down over time, wouldn't that create a problem with bottle conditioning and CO2 build-up?

You're forgetting about the boil.

I could try boiling water in my 50L kettle on the stove to use for sparging, not sure how much luck I'd have. My only other stock pot is a 15L.
At least this way I could have the kettle under the mash-tun shortly after after mash-in.

I'll buy an element for the old 50L kettle, and make it my HLT. Just not yet

Do you boil outside on a burner? [Sorry if you don't but I thought you mentioned it before.] About 20 minutes before you need to mash out, put your water in your 50l kettle or whatever on the gas burner and let 'er rip. When it's boiling, dump it in. If you're mashing in an esky, that leaves your burner free, right?

My typical esky batches were roughly 4.5-5kg of malt in a 48qt esky. I'd dough in with 15l of water, and it would take pretty much exactly 13l of boiling water to raise the mash from sacch temps to mashout. If I overshot, I'd just pour in 0.5 - 1l of cold water. If I undershot, I'd boil another 2l of water (which wouldn't take more than 3 or 4 minutes) and add that.

 

[trevc]

That's exactly what I did for a single batch, with similar numbers. I'm outside, yes.

I was referring to big double-batches, where there's no room in the Esky tun for a mash-out. I'd need to free up the HLT/kettle after mash-in so I could drain and start heating the wort right away. Hopefully I haven't mis-understood what you're getting at. I'm stuck in between AHB and work projects here.

As always, the input is much appreciate guys. I'm supposed to be working! ... be back later

 

[newguy]

I misunderstood. For a double batch you have to improvise. Perhaps if you drained the esky completely first, you may have enough room to dump in enough boiling water to get to mash out.....but at that point there probably is no real point to doing a mashout. Just try to do things quickly and you'll minimise the time that your wort sits before the boil.

Good luck.