What Og And Size For Starter Using Dry Yeast?

[Barley Belly]

I searched and read up all about making yeast starters but I still have a couple of questions unanswered.

I'm looking a doing a high OG (around 1070) Chocolate Porter.
I've never used starters before, just sprinkled the packet onto the wort.

My yeast I'm using is a 15g Brewcellar English Ale Yeast.

What should the OG of my starter wort be considering I will be pitching it eventually into a Wort around 1070?

What volume of starter wort should I start with for 15g dry yeast, before stepping up to 1 litre before pitching?

 

[TerritoryBrew]

Have a read of this

http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2008/04/01/m...home-brew-beer/

It should give you a good idea.

Cheers,

TB

 

[buttersd70]

The link TB gave states 1040, and the wyeast instructions say the same. mrmalty.com says the same thing, and advises not to go over 1040 even if for high OG beers. He expanded on this in an article (or it might have been a podcast) elswhere (unfortunately I can't remember where), going into more detail, specificaly in relation to high gravity beer, and why the starter should still not exceed 1040. Something to do with stress on the yeast during the reproductive phase, but time has made me hazy on the specifics.

 

[dr K]

I would suggest not using a starter.
You did not mention your batch size , but 15gm of dry yeast (fresh etc) will be sufficient for 25-40 litres of ale wort, dependant on gravity. 1070 is not that high so your 15gm will be fine for a single batch.
I am not going to enter the "is a single pack/vial enough for 19 litres of normal gravity wort" argument right now.
Fresh yeasts (liquid) are perishable product and need to be stored correctly, dry yeasts are far more resilient, but, dry yeasts are designed to be either rehydrated or pitched direct, the dry yeast manufacturers ensure high levels of glycogen and trehalose in the product, trehalose is a sort of stress pill for yeast as well as being, with glycogen a great kick starter. It is generally accepted that making a starter for dry yeast is at best useless and at times detrimental.

K

 

[katzke]

I would suggest not using a starter.
You did not mention your batch size , but 15gm of dry yeast (fresh etc) will be sufficient for 25-40 litres of ale wort, dependant on gravity. 1070 is not that high so your 15gm will be fine for a single batch.
I am not going to enter the "is a single pack/vial enough for 19 litres of normal gravity wort" argument right now.
Fresh yeasts (liquid) are perishable product and need to be stored correctly, dry yeasts are far more resilient, but, dry yeasts are designed to be either rehydrated or pitched direct, the dry yeast manufacturers ensure high levels of glycogen and trehalose in the product, trehalose is a sort of stress pill for yeast as well as being, with glycogen a great kick starter. It is generally accepted that making a starter for dry yeast is at best useless and at times detrimental.

K

I also have read that dry yeast packs have a higher cell count then the liquid vial or Wyeast packs.

 

[Stuster]

I would suggest not using a starter.

+1 to everything the doctor says.

 

[TidalPete]

+1 to everything the doctor says.

+2 here.

Perhaps slightly off-topic but in the never-ending quest for more cost-cutting efficiency I have farmed the sludge from several dry yeast fermentations, split the yeast into seven tubes & used them up to 17 months old (So far) in a 1040 starter with no ill effects but have never gone on to a third generation although there seems to be no reason why this would not be ok as well?
Comments please.

TP :beer:

 

[newguy]

TP,

You should be safe doing a 3rd generation. I reuse my yeast (liquid only) 3 times to bring the cost down as well. My standard procedure is to simply pitch the new batch onto the yeast cake of the old one 2x, which gives me 3 batches counting the original pitch from a starter. As long as the starter you prepare tastes & smells fine, there shouldn't be any issues at all.

FYI, it's standard procedure for most micros to repitch their yeast 50-100 times before starting with a fresh culture. About every 5 pitches they'll acid wash the yeast, and roughly every 25th generation (or 5 acid washes) they'll wash the yeast with chemical that apparently wipes out every trace of bacteria but doesn't affect yeast. Sorry, I wasn't paying enough attention when the chemical was named.

 

[TidalPete]

TP,

You should be safe doing a 3rd generation. I reuse my yeast (liquid only) 3 times to bring the cost down as well. My standard procedure is to simply pitch the new batch onto the yeast cake of the old one 2x, which gives me 3 batches counting the original pitch from a starter. As long as the starter you prepare tastes & smells fine, there shouldn't be any issues at all.

FYI, it's standard procedure for most micros to repitch their yeast 50-100 times before starting with a fresh culture. About every 5 pitches they'll acid wash the yeast, and roughly every 25th generation (or 5 acid washes) they'll wash the yeast with chemical that apparently wipes out every trace of bacteria but doesn't affect yeast. Sorry, I wasn't paying enough attention when the chemical was named.

You are right there newguy. I split my new smackpacks into 8-10 tubes & farm the fermenter sludge of the 2nd last tube for second generation but stop at 4th generation. No real reason why I shouldn't do the same with my dry yeast.
Very interesting what you say about the micros.

TP :beer:

 

[KGB]

It is generally accepted that making a starter for dry yeast is at best useless and at times detrimental.

Thats what I thought...

Either pitch dry or rehydrate and pitch if you want a faster start.

 

[buttersd70]

+2 here.

Perhaps slightly off-topic but in the never-ending quest for more cost-cutting efficiency I have farmed the sludge from several dry yeast fermentations, split the yeast into seven tubes & used them up to 17 months old (So far) in a 1040 starter with no ill effects but have never gone on to a third generation although there seems to be no reason why this would not be ok as well?
Comments please.

TP :beer:

I've gone to 4th gen with no probs at all, but it wasn't that old, prob about 6 months or so. Slight difference with mine was that it wasn't split as much, only split into 3, and pitched with no starters.
I didn't go further or longer mainly due to a swap to liquid.