What Is Your Definition Of Lager?

[Trough Lolly]

You don't think a brewer has the right to override this?

Of course they can! And we often do, whether we knowingly do it or not!

If I ran a microbrewery, and made a new brew which was an authentic English bitter in every respect, except that I chose to use a lager yeast - and if I decided to market this beer as 'Wortgames Peculiar Pommy Ale, brewed clean for summer drinking' - then I should be 'wrong' and prevented from calling it that?

Well, I'd be more than happy to drink your fine brew, but to be honest, it's not a matter of enforceability - it's as I said in my earlier post...

...to identify broad categories of beer based on yeast is a pretty good starting point.

((Emphasis added)) The actual strain of yeast should not be used as the sole determinant but it does give brewers and especially those who want to make commercial quantities of a beer over and over, a start in being able to consistently reproduce their beer. Sure, that may not be important to us homebrewers, but I do keep records of every beer I've made since 1995 and I think it would be remiss of me not to note which yeast strain I used.

What if I add both ale AND lager yeast?

Then you have a perfectly acceptable beer that's neither a pure lager or ale! And you have absolutely every right to call it what you want and determine how you make it...Where you may have a problem is trying to pass it off as a pure lager in a BJCP or similar comp???? But that doesn't matter a jot if you don't put it in a comp, does it!

IMO a brewer is (and should be) entitled to use whatever ingredients he wants, to make whatever style of beer he wants, and to call the result whatever he wants. In most cases it isn't an issue of course, as the brewer would generally agree with the yeast classification - but I could see potential situations where a creative brewer might buck the trend and deliberately use a 'wrong' yeast for some reason, and I don't like the idea that certain things should be defined for him externally by hard and fast rules.
Brewer first, then yeast strain. I reckon.

I can't disagree with you there - and the day we stop experimenting will be a very sad day...but I still maintain, the type of yeast you use to ferment your wort is a good starting point in trying to classify the beer as either a lager or ale...if you want to that.
Otherwise, brew, drink, and enjoy!
Cheers,
TL

 

[Darren]

It seems that nearly everyone agrees that the minimum requirement for a 'lager' in the modern sense is:

1) Bottom fermenting yeast and
2) Cool primary fermentation temperature.

Yes?

Yes, a lager is just that.

Brewtus, those lagers tasted so bad that they took over the world

BTW, only bad lagers taste bad warm. A good lager tastes good warm. Same as a bad ale tastes bad, cool or warm

 

[Brewtus]

Brewtus, those lagers tasted so bad that they took over the world

Darren,

You have a good point.

This is from and English POV. Remember it is cold and damp in the UK and sunny days are for about 3 months of the year. You don't want icy cold beer unless you are in a crowded sweaty pub. Something that tastes good at 10 degC is much nicer.

I have spent a few years there and got to understand there beer culture a bit. The roots of CAMRA are in a backlash against cheap copies of continental lagers and, worse, the bad/cheap pommie copies of them such as Carlings Black Lable and other megaswill. Also the Danish would sell Carlsburg Super 9% in the UK when they would not sell it at home. There was a trend in the 70's and 80's of lager louts, i.e. mega swill drinkers who would drink cheap crap to get drunk and their influence started to drive smaller breweries out of business. There was probably all other sorts of reasons that 'real ale' became unpopular but in the nineties CAMRA started to make real ale respectable and started a renaissance in British brewing.

BTW, only bad lagers taste bad warm. A good lager tastes good warm. Same as a bad ale tastes bad, cool or warm

Refer to my comment on the cheap copy lagers. Even so,good lager still tastes best at 4-6deg C.

The English made up the name 'lager', not the people who invented lager. Mind you they must have first used the term a long time ago as Fosters Lager dates back to 1888. Mind you back then the Brits went to the continent the for holidays or work. If it wasn't for dutch sailors (who probably drank Grolsch or similar), the English language would be poorer and the censors would have less work to do.

 

[MHB]

For mine Lager

1/ has to be brewed with a Lager yeast (i.e. able to metabolise raffinose, for want of a better definition)

2/ has to be brewed in conditions that promote Lager characters (i.e. low temperatures, or higher pressure combinations with warm fermentation, up to say 15C) of low ester and acceptably low HS production etc.

3/ has to have been stored long enough and cool enough to "chill proof" the beer (precipitate temporary haze forming protein from the beer) and to have allowed the beer to be fully mature (yes; you can measure this but I dont have a gas-chromatograph either).

Any combination that uses some of these but not all would be a Hybrid beer (i.e. Kolsch an Ale brewed like a Lager, but not a Lager)

Cheers and really clear beers

MHB


PS Darren
(you posted while I was doing something else)

BTW, only bad lagers taste bad warm. A good lager tastes good warm. Same as a bad ale tastes bad, cool or warm

Agree 100% and that might be the best definition of good beer I have seen.

M

 

[Tony]

If i was really board...... i would go back through this thread and count how many times people spelt lager with a second r

but i couldn't be bothered.

Rice Gulls

To me..... a lager is a beer, straw to black, that is firmented with a bottom firmenting yeast at temps less than 12 deg c and cold conditioned to finnish the beer.

An ale is a bit more smack bang, firmented from 16 to 100 deg and racked to clear and consumed.

Sorry but im not into big words after 10 pm

cheers
cheers

 

[BoilerBoy]

If i was really board...... i would go back through this thread and count how many times people spelt lager with a second r

cheers
cheers

A fair point Tony,

by the way you spelt fermented with an "i" as in firmented :beer:

Cheers mate

 

[Tony]

I can spell, i just cant type and dont bother going back to correct

It just makes me feel good when someone else does it. Jazman doesnt get on here enough any more.

cheers

 

[Trough Lolly]

Ahhh, Jazman.....I miss his posts!

If Pat's the ying then Jazman's the yang!!

Cheers,
TL

 

[Wortgames]

I can spell, i just cant type

I don't think anyone would disagree that generally

a lager is brewed with lager yeast;

lager yeasts are generally fermented cool;

lagers should be lagered to maximise their lageriness;

ales are brewed with ale yeast;

ale yeasts are generally fermented warm;

ales should not be lagered, to maximise their aleness.


I think any brewing book you pick up would tell you something similar. But the OP asked:

But for those that think there is true definition of type of beer. Can you please lead me back to the class room?

Perhaps I misunderstood, but I read this to mean 'is there a black and white definition', in other words an undeniable litmus test, an absolute 'truth' to whether a beer is an ale or a lager?

My position is that no, there isn't - for the reasons I brought up in my earlier posts - people can always blur the boundaries. I think the only undeniable definition is what the brewer says he has brewed. You certainly can't say that a lager must use 'lager yeast plus cool fermentation plus cold storage' as there will be brewers who brew lagers that don't necessarily fit those criteria - and that doesn't mean they've brewed an ale!

The question 'if I did this and this and this, would I have an ale or a lager?' can only really be answered by what type of yeast you used. Whether you lagered or not, and what temperature you fermented at, would not be enough in themselves to change a lager into an ale or vice versa. If the brewer doesn't know what he's made, then I say it is up to the yeast alone to decide.

I guess we really need to decide whether all beers NECESSARILY fall into either ale or lager - or whether we are allowing room for a third, 'other', category? If we are sticking to an either-or, lager-ale system, then you can't impose additional criteria on lagers and make everything else 'ale', any more than you can say an ale must be 'this and this and this otherwise it is a lager'.

 

[Trough Lolly]

<<<snip>>>
The question 'if I did this and this and this, would I have an ale or a lager?' can only really be answered by what type of yeast you used. Whether you lagered or not, and what temperature you fermented at, would not be enough in themselves to change a lager into an ale or vice versa. If the brewer doesn't know what he's made, then I say it is up to the yeast alone to decide.
<<<snip>>>

Amen to that! B)

I stored this beer in the high hills overlooking Innsbruck - does that make it a lager? No...
I used pilsner malt - does that make it a lager? No....
I used a bottom fermenting yeast which incidentally fermented the wort at 10C - does that make it a lager? Yes.

Cheers,
TL

 

[matti]

For those in the know and for those who'd like to know how it all began.
The short version.
Beer does not keep well in summer and the Germans complained saying I am not paying for this it taste like !@#$.
So a decree was made that one shouldn't brew in summer months.
Those who brew beer in late spring realised that the beer wouldn't be ready in time so they stored their beer in their cellar/caves. Because they couldn't allow the beer to be sold for profit they waited until autumn to sell their beer.
The beer had cleared and tasted so much better then before and LAGERBIER was born
Here's a link
http://www.palatinat.dragnet.com.au/puri_law.htm\


:beer:
matti

 

[Brooksy]

Lager = Beer.
Ale = Beer.

I love beer and don't give a hoot about its family background.....

 

[Trough Lolly]

For those in the know and for those who'd like to know how it all began.
The short version.
Beer does not keep well in summer and the Germans complained saying I am not paying for this it taste like !@#$.
So a decree was made that one shouldn't brew in summer months.
Those who brew beer in late spring realised that the beer wouldn't be ready in time so they stored their beer in their cellar/caves. Because they couldn't allow the beer to be sold for profit they waited until autumn to sell their beer.
The beer had cleared and tasted so much better then before and LAGERBIER was born
Here's a link
http://www.palatinat.dragnet.com.au/puri_law.htm\
:beer:
matti

aka Reinheitsgebot.... <_<
It's an interesting and quaint ruling but has feck all to do with distinguishing an ale from a lager!

Cheers,
TL

 

[matti]

I never queried what an ale was. lol
So the discussion got diluted along the way.
I merely asked what the population defines as a true lager.
!!??

 

[Trough Lolly]

Yeah, good point Matti - thanks for the reality check!!

The reason why I have an issue with the 1516 German beer purity law is that it was written some 300 years before Buchner, Mitcherlich and Pasteur discovered the existance of yeast! I applaud the good intent behing using malt, hops and water but without yeast, you will find it hard to complete the beermaking job - they just didn't know that at the time!

Cheers,
TL

 

[alexbrand]

The reason why I have an issue with the 1516 German beer purity law is that it was written some 300 years before Buchner, Mitcherlich and Pasteur discovered the existance of yeast! I applaud the good intent behing using malt, hops and water but without yeast, you will find it hard to complete the beermaking job - they just didn't know that at the time!

Well, our old purity law (from Bavaria) only knew water, hops and barley (not malt). Today there are many discussions about the reason why ONLY barley is mentioned. The most common vie is, that in 1516 wheat was rare and it was needed for the bakery products. With barley the baker could not do his job. This is why they protected the wheat from the brewers...


BTW: Today the "Reinheitsgebot" still has a funtion. The breweries often write sth. like "Gebraut nach dem deutschen Reinheitsgebot" ("brewed according to the purity law") on the label. This should suggest, that the customer gets a very good beer (I don't think so *lol*). That what in former times was the "Reinheitsgebot", today is the "Biersteuergesetz" (beer tax law). This is not so strict anymore...


Cheers,

Alex

 

[Tim]

Hmm,
This is getting interesting.
How come you can buy VB in Europe which is made in Germany?
Does this pass Reinheitsgebot?

I have a feeling that the new EU legislation allows German brewers to put whatever they want in their beer? Well at least that is what a brewer told me in Belgium last weekend.

 

[alexbrand]

How come you can buy VB in Europe which is made in Germany?
Does this pass Reinheitsgebot?

Ehm... sorry what means "VB"?

I have a feeling that the new EU legislation allows German brewers to put whatever they want in their beer? Well at least that is what a brewer told me in Belgium last weekend.

I am sorry, but I should tell you the truth: YES, THEY ARE. The mentioned beer tax law contains an appendix with all ingredients allowed in beer... I have never seen this appendix, but may be I'll find it through my Aunt Google...

Alex


EDIT: I found out, that I did not tell the whole truth. From 1952 till 1984 the Reinheitsgebot was something like law. It was embedded in the German beer tax law. This caused that only drinks brewed following this law had to be called "Bier". In 1894 a european court decided, that imported beer containing additional ingredients could also be sold in Germany under the name "Bier". Today the hint "according to the German Reinheitsgebot" on the label is for marketing only. It is not self-evident anymore.

 

[Tim]

Thanks Alex,
We have probably strayed a bit off topic here!

VB is Victoria Bitter, which is an Australian Megaswill lager.
I have seen it in Germany, and it appears to be manufactured there as well. When brewed by Carlton United in Australia, there is cane sugar added to the boil to thin out the beer and up the gravity. I was just curious about the German brewed variety.

 

[alexbrand]

Off topic: Today you can put everything into the mash tun if you want. Old shoes? Sure, why not. Give it try. the only thing then: Put the "old shoes" onto the ingredients list on the label and do not use the term "Reinheitsgebot". Then everything will be fine.... :-(

Alex