What Is Your Definition Of Lager?

[Trough Lolly]

But for those that think there is true definition of type of beer.
Can you please lead me back to the class room? :blink:
cheers

Ok Class.....

Now, I've got 5kg of cracked malted barley and 30g of 8% A/A hops.
I mashed the barley for an hour at 65C.
I boiled the extract for an hour and added 20g of the hops at the start of the boil and 10g with 10 mins to go.
((...are you still with me, class?!))
I chilled the boiled wort, strained it through some very clean Y fronts and split the boiled wort into two fermenters....

I pitched Lager yeast in one fermenter and Ale yeast in the other.

Question: What have I got? :huh:

 

[AndrewQLD]

T.L,

Not sure if I was paying attention then but I think the answer might be, a Lager and an Ale?

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Darren]

Some more washing?


cheers

Darren


(Of course a lager is made with lager yeast at low temp)

 

[Mr Bond]

I pitched Lager yeast in one fermenter and Ale yeast in the other.

Question: What have I got? :huh:

Beer :chug:

 

[matti]

Always good to mix fact with opinions, Screwtop.

So a lager is anything brewed with lager yeast. full stop?
An ale is brewed with ale yeast and that is it?

We can go on forever stating the obvious.
I thought it was good to hear from so many over such an unimportant fact over such a short time.

Is may seem silly to pass time trying to draw a line in the sand of what is an ale or a lager, because there are so many sub categories.
With so many brewers, and internet providing the information and tools of the trade, it is only bound to grow.
That line in the sand is bound to be washed into the Sea.

Being a stubborn mule, I think a lager is a beer where the lagering method is used to allow the yeast to finnish the work off and give the beer that slightly fuller body and round malty taste.

cherio

 

[Zwickel]

I think, the name says everything, Lager means Store.
If you store (lager) a beer for a certain time, it naturally clears itself.
Long time ago, when filters havent been in use yet, people just differenced an ordinary beer, that was cloudy, and a lager beer that has cleared already because of its storing (lager) time.

Im gonna vote for: "A lager beer just has to be clear".

Cheers/Prost :beer:

edit: spelling

 

[alexbrand]

Hey Fellows!

I have the same opinion like Zwickel. Lager means "storage" and also the verb "to store". A lager is a beer is a 'well stored' (conditioned) beer e.g. of Pils or Mrzen type.

A Lagerbier is after its time in the "lager" not cloudy anymore. But this is not necessary to call it a Lagerbier. Just its time in the storage. In former times in Bavaria they brewed only from september till april (the colder period of the year). To have the beer in summer as well, they stored it in ice filled caves, the so called "Lager".

Cheers,

Alex

 

[NRB]

I think a lager is a beer where the lagering method is used to allow the yeast to finnish the work off and give the beer that slightly fuller body and round malty taste.

Then you'd be wrong

Im gonna vote for: "A lager beer just has to be clear".

So by your definition Zwickel, all beers are lagers? Even the cloudiest of Hefeweizens will clear over time... :blink:

I have the same opinion like Zwickel. Lager means "storage" and also the verb "to store". A lager is a beer is a 'well stored' (conditioned) beer e.g. of Pils or Mrzen type.

Hey Alex, welcome aboard! See my response above

The two examples you've listed above are brewed with a "lager" bottom-fermenting yeast at cold temperatures. Can you give an example of a "lager" brewed with a top-fermented yeast at around 20C?

God I love stirring the pot. :beer:

 

[Zwickel]

So maybe I got a little bit misunderstood, I just described where the denomonation may comes from.
If I consider, that the exertion of bottom fermenting yeasts first with the creation of the Pilsener style came into vogue and all beers until then have been top fermentingt beers, hardly a lager beer could be produced with bottom fermenting yeasts (those days).

Nowadays everything has changed, the denomonation of lager beer now is used for a certain type of beer, as youve mentioned, a clear bottom fermented beer.

As the number of beerstyles has risen, the demand of denominations for it has risen too.
For example Zwickel, it has been a small faucet at the maturing tank, dispensing a cloudy young beer.
As soon as the microbreweries came into vogue and were selling theire unfiltered beer, they needed a certain denomination for that beers, so they calll it Zwickel today.

Maybe Im totally wrong
Cheers

 

[alexbrand]

Can you give an example of a "lager" brewed with a top-fermented yeast at around 20C?

I can't. Because in my opinion there is no real Lagerbier in the top fermented division. By German / Bavarian tradition a Lager is bottom fermented. But this has nothing to do with its name. The name Lager itself just comes from the fact, that it has been 'well stored' before serving. As I mentioned, this lager has been waiting in icy caves (ice taken from glaciers) for the summer to come. And this also caused a long period of conditioning. From the 1830s on Anton Dreher (Vienna) begun piling his beer in the basement vault. This strengthened the general term "Lager" for this beer.


Alex

EDIT: I looked up some facts in the german wiki: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagerbier

 

[sokodan]

So

To a newbie , the lager is fermented wth a bottom brewing yeast and when fermentation has finished stored at low temps for an extended period of time , where as the ale is top fermented and fermented at generally higher temps and conditioned at these temps with generally shorter conditioning times . I think i have this in theory ?? . With draught it is not a beer style but the method in which the beer "delivered" . So can you have the ale and lager draughted ?? <_<

 

[Stuster]

Yep, draught says nothing about whether it's an ale or a lager.

Not all ales are conditioned at these temperatures. Often brewers will drop the temperature on ales once they are fermented to drop out the yeast (and for other unexplained reasons ). These are generally still called ales. There are also some yeasts which work well at temperatures in between the temperatures that ales and lagers generally work at, blurring the difference a bit.

 

[Darren]

A lager by definition is that which is fermeted by Cerevisiae carlsbegiences (or how ever the **** you spell it).

I had a long talk to Chris White (White Labs) about this. My proposal to him was that lager yeasts were simply cold adapted ale yeasts?

His response was that "Cerevisiae carlsbegiences has an extra chromosome so they were a distinct different class of yeast".

Whether this resulted from hundreds of years of "cold fermenting" is anyone debate. Certainly does not happen after a years continuous culture, he said.

Hope this clears up the lager debate!!

cheers

Darren

 

[matti]

No

 

[Mr Bond]

A lager by definition is that which is fermeted by Cerevisiae carlsbegiences (or how ever the **** you spell it).

I had a long talk to Chris White (White Labs) about this. My proposal to him was that lager yeasts were simply cold adapted ale yeasts?

His response was that "Cerevisiae carlsbegiences has an extra chromosome so they were a distinct different class of yeast".

Whether this resulted from hundreds of years of "cold fermenting" is anyone debate. Certainly does not happen after a years continuous culture, he said.

Hope this clears up the lager debate!!

cheers

Darren

Here is some info I dug up that should muddy the waters even more.

" These findings substantiate the notion that S. carlsbergensis is a hybrid between S. cerevisiae and S. monacensis"

 

[Darren]

Here is some info I dug up that should muddy the waters even more.

" These findings substantiate the notion that S. carlsbergensis is a hybrid between S. cerevisiae and S. monacensis"

Mr Bond,

Does not muddy it for me. Just shows it a completely different strain from S.cerevisiae, hence a lager yeast.


Matti,

you seem fairly definate there. Why? Any other comments?


cheers

Darren

 

[matti]

Just stirring.
A lager is a lager and an ale is an ale.
Then ther is great lagers and bad lagers and so on.

I love Heineken on tap. back to work

 

[blackbock]

A lager by definition is that which is fermeted by Cerevisiae carlsbegiences (or how ever the **** you spell it).

I had a long talk to Chris White (White Labs) about this. My proposal to him was that lager yeasts were simply cold adapted ale yeasts?

His response was that "Cerevisiae carlsbegiences has an extra chromosome so they were a distinct different class of yeast".

Having an extra chromosome does not make for a separate species though Darren, even if your information did come from such an esteemed source.

 

[Stuster]

I did a bit of net-hunting on this last night. It seems there's a bit of controversy over whether they are sub-species or not. Anyway, forgot to bookmark anything, but this might be of some interest.

 

[Darren]

Having an extra chromosome does not make for a separate species though Darren, even if your information did come from such an esteemed source.

No? Does to me. An extra chromosome means alot I would have thought.

Even the name says it is a different species

S. carlsbergensis and S. cerevisiae.

cheers

Darren